‘Tiller Was Killed by a Pro-Choice Act’

US News • Views: 3,727

One of the most despicable blog posts (in a field with many competitors) about the murder of Dr. George Tiller, from 23-year old anti-abortion fanatic Gingi Edmonds: George Tiller the Baby Killer.

I’m trying to remember, did anyone mourn Lee Harvey Oswald when Jack Ruby gunned him down? Or better yet, did anyone mourn the deaths of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer, or any other mass murderer for that matter? Even according to the harebrained pro-choice life-at-viability reckoning, Tiller was indisputably a mass murderer who was executed in a fashion far more humane than the tens of thousands of children that he mutilated and left to die in cuddle session bassinets.

I mean, think about it.  Someone just shot a Nazi guard manning the gas chamber at Aushwitz [sic]. I should feel bad about this? George Tiller the Baby Killer’s acts are every bit as vile as the Nazi war criminals who were hunted down, tried, and sentenced after they participated in the “legal” murder of the Jews that fell into their hands.

If only Dr. Tiller had been found guilty in his recent trial, there wouldn’t have been any need to murder him:

Over the years there have been multiple opportunities to peacefully and legally hold George Tiller accountable to his actions, thus shielding him from acts of extremism. An example would be his trial that took place in March of 2009. Being charged with 19 misdemeanors he got off scott-free through corrupt political ties and professional dishonesty. Again, had justice been served in that courtroom, Tiller would be alive today and serving a sentence behind bars.

It goes on seemingly forever in this evil-minded vein, concluding with:

Tiller was killed by a pro-choice act. Pro-lifers need make no apologies. Both men are guilty of bloodshed and this tragedy is a sad but all-too-real testament to the biblical truth that those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

Excuse me while I retch.

Jump to bottom

478 comments
1 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:23:44pm

Scum. At least learn to spell Auschwitz. Then maybe buy a clue.

2 quickslow87  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:24:38pm

I have always wondered where crazy people come from...

3 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:27:46pm

Congratulations, Gingi! For producing propaganda justifying murder and terrorism, you are this month's winner of the Joseph Goebbels Award!

/spits

4 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:28:23pm

This is a Level 4 WTF?

5 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:28:50pm

This is the same nut who said Tiller performed more abortions than American soldiers died in the Vietnam War. Really? Over 59000? At a rate of 1 per day, that would have kept him busy for 159 years. Or was this center like a (dis)assembly line of some kind and hes been busy around the clock for a couple decades?

6 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:31:05pm

re: #5 ArchangelMichael

This is the same nut who said Tiller performed more abortions than American soldiers died in the Vietnam War. Really? Over 59000? At a rate of 1 per day, that would have kept him busy for 159 years. Or was this center like a (dis)assembly line of some kind and hes been busy around the clock for a couple decades?

Randall Terry, and O'Reily use the 60,000 figure, O'reaily did it again tonight while blaming NBC for the soldiers murder.

7 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:31:32pm

Get out the nice white coats....

Youtube Video
8 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:31:59pm

re: #5 ArchangelMichael

This is the same nut who said Tiller performed more abortions than American soldiers died in the Vietnam War. Really? Over 59000? At a rate of 1 per day, that would have kept him busy for 159 years. Or was this center like a (dis)assembly line of some kind and hes been busy around the clock for a couple decades?

It wasn't that many but Tiller certainly killed thousands of otherwise viable babies. Tiller was a bad man and his clinic should have been shut down, but he should not have been murdered.

9 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:32:25pm
I mean, think about it. Someone just shot a Nazi guard manning the gas chamber at Aushwitz [sic].

Actually nobody ever shot a Nazi guard operating the gas chambers and there were no citizens' mass protests at any of the extermination camps. There were a few heroic individuals who saved Jews, but these people did not go out and kill random Germans or even SS.

If these people who are cheering the cold-blooded murder of Dr. Tiller (mind you he was assassinated in church, not performing an abortion!) would have been around in Nazi Germany, they would agree THE JUICE are the "baby killers."

I am just SO SICK of these poisonous cretins comparing themselves to "mass protesters freeing the Jews from the gas chambers." This is their sick fantasy.

There was one woman, Dr. Gisele Pearl I believe her name was, who secretly performed abortions on women prisoners at Auschwitz in order to save them from being gassed or used for experimentation by Mengele, who enjoyed various methods of performing abortions.

And those who know the history of my posting here, know that I am very pro-life in my opinions.

10 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:32:44pm

re: #6 avanti

Randall Terry, and O'Reily use the 60,000 figure, O'reaily did it again tonight while blaming NBC for the soldiers murder.

So either this "procedure" is something that can be done dozens of times a day, or people just (big surprise here) doing the math.

11 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:33:12pm

re: #6 avanti

Randall Terry, and O'Reily use the 60,000 figure, O'reaily did it again tonight while blaming NBC for the soldiers murder.


Avanti, O'Reilly DID NOT blame NBC for the soldier's murder. I saw the show tonight and he clearly said NBC could not be blamed, but by their own reasoning on blaming him, they would also be blamed.

12 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:34:21pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

It wasn't that many but Tiller certainly killed thousands of otherwise viable babies. Tiller was a bad man and his clinic should have been shut down, but he should not have been murdered.

Regardless of whether late-term abortion, or any abortion for that matter, is good, bad, whatever... it doesn't change the fact that they are lying in an almost cartoonishly obvious way and that does not help their cause.

13 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:34:24pm

Sorry to go OT so soon, but in other crazy people news:

A senior U.S. official tells FOX News that more targets were found on computer of a man charged in the fatal shooting Monday at a military recruiting center in Arkansas — suggesting that the shooter may have been part of a larger plot to attack military targets and may not have been acting alone.

It wasn't immediately clear, however, how extensive that plot was or what evidence authorities have that suggests that more suspects were involved. The U.S. official's information contradicted a local police official's denial earlier Tuesday that the shooting was part of a larger conspiracy.

Spoke a little too soon there, eh, Sparky?

14 WindHorse  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:34:54pm

some one help me here..... abortion is legal isn't it?

/and murder ain't....

15 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:34:57pm

re: #10 ArchangelMichael

So either this "procedure" is something that can be done dozens of times a day, or people just (big surprise here) aren't doing the math.

PIMF

16 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:35:34pm

re: #9 Alouette

Actually nobody ever shot a Nazi guard operating the gas chambers and there were no citizens' mass protests at any of the extermination camps. There were a few heroic individuals who saved Jews, but these people did not go out and kill random Germans or even SS.

If these people who are cheering the cold-blooded murder of Dr. Tiller (mind you he was assassinated in church, not performing an abortion!) would have been around in Nazi Germany, they would agree THE JUICE are the "baby killers."

I am just SO SICK of these poisonous cretins comparing themselves to "mass protesters freeing the Jews from the gas chambers." This is their sick fantasy.

There was one woman, Dr. Gisele Pearl I believe her name was, who secretly performed abortions on women prisoners at Auschwitz in order to save them from being gassed or used for experimentation by Mengele, who enjoyed various methods of performing abortions.

And those who know the history of my posting here, know that I am very pro-life in my opinions.

I wonder if this lunatic even knows that abortions were legal in Weimar Germany, but that the Third Reich criminalized them, and created lebensborns, wher women were systematically bred to SS officers chosen for Aryan characteristics and temperament, in order to produce future soldiers for the Reich?

17 jorline  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:35:52pm

Moral Minority's answer...If you can't beat'em...kill'em!
Self Righteous Laws for the good of mankind.

*maddness*

18 wee fury  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:35:58pm

Gingi Edwards also states:

I mean, I personally would not shoot an abortionist, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else?


This person needs some serious historical education.

19 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:37:06pm

re: #12 ArchangelMichael

Regardless of whether late-term abortion, or any abortion for that matter, is good, bad, whatever... it doesn't change the fact that they are lying in an almost cartoonishly obvious way and that does not help their cause.

Agreed.

20 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:38:15pm

re: #17 jorline

Moral Minority's answer...If you can't beat'em...kill'em!
Self Righteous Laws for the good of mankind.

*maddness*

Reminds me of a slogan from a long time ago: "The Moral Majority is neither."

21 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:38:17pm

re: #16 Salamantis

I wonder if this lunatic even knows that abortions were legal in Weimar Germany, but that the Third Reich criminalized them, and created lebensborns, wher women were systematically bred to SS officers chosen for Aryan characteristics and temperament, in order to produce future soldiers for the Reich?

It was also true that Jewish women in the ghettoes or camps were found to be pregnant, whether from their own husbands or from being raped, they were sent immediately to the gas chambers, so they had to get an abortion in order to save their own lives.

22 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:38:52pm

A sad story on CNN tonight after the one last night about a late term abortion of a fetus without a brain. Tonight's was about a woman in the 4th month that found out her fetus was fatally flawed, but she choose to carry it to term. She felt even though the baby would die, she could not do it at her hand. She carried the baby to near term, had a normal delivery and enjoyed her 12 hours with the baby before it died. To me it's about choice, two women, two different choices, both valid and tragic.

23 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:39:13pm

re: #5 ArchangelMichael

This is the same nut who said Tiller performed more abortions than American soldiers died in the Vietnam War. Really? Over 59000? At a rate of 1 per day, that would have kept him busy for 159 years. Or was this center like a (dis)assembly line of some kind and hes been busy around the clock for a couple decades?

The number I've heard is 60,000. I worked for an ObGYN clinic for one summer in which one of the multiple doctors did 1st trimester abortions. He could to 5-6 per day.

24 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:39:19pm

I saw this the last night when I was trolling kookosphere, several creep and militia sites have linked to that article.

25 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:39:46pm
I mean, think about it. Someone just shot a Nazi guard manning the gas chamber at Aushwitz [sic]. I should feel bad about this?

Arguing from analogy is a weak form of logic. Dr Tiller was not a nazi. And he was standing in a church. There is no comparison.

26 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:40:06pm

re: #18 wee fury

It needs a fucking clue by four along side its head!

27 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:40:31pm

re: #18 wee fury

Gingi Edwards also states:


This person needs some serious historical education.

A lot of people need that. Just yesterday I helped a customer who had a totenkopf patch on his vest. I don't know if he was an actual Nazi but it was all I could do not to scream at him: "How can you wear that monstrous symbol?! Don't you know what it means?!"

28 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:40:43pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

It wasn't that many but Tiller certainly killed thousands of otherwise viable babies.

And in every case, he followed the laws of the state of Kansas, which require that two independent doctors certify a medical necessity for the abortion. The women whose lives were saved by making the wrenching, painful decision to have late term abortions disagree with your assessment of Tiller as a "bad man."

29 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:40:47pm

re: #18 wee fury

Gingi Edwards also states:

I mean, I personally would not shoot an abortionist, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else

This person needs some serious historical education.

That broke my irony meter, too.

30 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:41:25pm

re: #25 Sharmuta

Arguing from analogy is a weak form of logic. Dr Tiller was not a nazi. And he was standing in a church. There is no comparison.

Yes but that he was the "american mengele" running a "deathcamp" was in the quotes from Roeder, seems like Gingi is in violent agreement with him.

31 WindHorse  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:41:29pm

re: #28 Charles

right on Charles.... right on.

32 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:41:57pm

On this sad note I will say goodnight.

33 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:41:59pm

re: #11 VioletTiger

Avanti, O'Reilly DID NOT blame NBC for the soldier's murder. I saw the show tonight and he clearly said NBC could not be blamed, but by their own reasoning on blaming him, they would also be blamed.

The NBC blame idea was quite a stretch compared to his Tiller the baby killer rants. Neither is directly responsible for either murder, but O'reily was much more of a influence on the haters.

34 Yankee Division Son  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:42:46pm

Jack Ruby envisioned himself a hero for murdering Lee Harvey Oswald, but he was wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

36 jorline  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:44:16pm

re: #20 iceweasel

Reminds me of a slogan from a long time ago: "The Moral Majority is neither."

They scare me.

Bubba Flavel:
So saith the Shepherd!
The Righteous Flock:
So saith the Flock!

Porky's II

37 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:44:30pm
Tiller was killed by a pro-choice act. Pro-lifers need make no apologies. Both men are guilty of bloodshed and this tragedy is a sad but all-too-real testament to the biblical truth that those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

The conclusion (pasted above) is one of the most despicable things I've ever read in my life.

Abortion is legal in this country and that is not going to change (sadly, in my mind, but it's here to stay nevertheless).

What is needed from any pro-life organization is not violence, but positive actions to encourage the choice of life, and to provide whatever support people need to make and follow-through with that choice.

38 WindHorse  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:44:59pm

before abortion was made legal, there were countless cases of women dying from trying to infect themselves to bring on abortion of the fetus.....

doctors are good.

39 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:45:33pm

re: #18 wee fury

Gingi Edwards also states:

I mean, I personally would not shoot an abortionist, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else?


This person needs some serious historical education.

That's just insane troll logic.

40 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:45:39pm

re: #22 avanti

A sad story on CNN tonight after the one last night about a late term abortion of a fetus without a brain. Tonight's was about a woman in the 4th month that found out her fetus was fatally flawed, but she choose to carry it to term. She felt even though the baby would die, she could not do it at her hand. She carried the baby to near term, had a normal delivery and enjoyed her 12 hours with the baby before it died. To me it's about choice, two women, two different choices, both valid and tragic.

We had a woman come through the office i worked for 6 years. A nurse at stanford, she had been exposed to radiation while pregnant and the baby didn't have a brain only a brain stem. Stanford MD's told her to abort, but she was LDS, and chose not to do that. I had to schedule her on our non-OB days so she didn't sit in the waiting room with other pregnant women and feel badly. The baby was born and lived for about 6 hours. They had beautiful pictures of her which they brought in and showed us. Wrapped up in a pink blanket she looked like any other beautiful newborn.

41 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:45:52pm

re: #23 DistantThunder

The number I've heard is 60,000. I worked for an ObGYN clinic for one summer in which one of the multiple doctors did 1st trimester abortions. He could to 5-6 per day.

How the hell could he do 60,000 ? There are about 1000/ year done nationally. Assume he did them all he would have started 60 years ago and his was not the only clinic. It's a bull shit figure to incite the pro lifers.

42 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:46:50pm

re: #30 Thanos

Yes but that he was the "american mengele" running a "deathcamp" was in the quotes from Roeder, seems like Gingi is in violent agreement with him.

"American mengele" running a "deathcamp" is not an equivalent, he didn't kidnap healthy women and force them to abort their babies. They came to him because they waited too long and passed the cutoff point at which abortions were allowed to be performed in their states.

If they had life-threatening emergency conditions like eclampsia that clearly indicated a termination was necessary STAT, this would have been performed in a state of the art hospital where the baby would be delivered and have some normal chance at recovery, instead of some clinic in the middle of nowhere that had no contingency for a live delivery.

43 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:46:59pm

re: #39 doppelganglander

That's just insane troll logic.

There's no logic, there, I find. Just an admission of both personal cowardice and a nasty, slimy thrill over someone else's heinous act, as if it occurred in a video game.

44 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:47:20pm

re: #28 Charles

And in every case, he followed the laws of the state of Kansas, which require that two independent doctors certify a medical necessity for the abortion. The women whose lives were saved by making the wrenching, painful decision to have late term abortions disagree with your assessment of Tiller as a "bad man."

They may disagree, but Tiller also performed late-term abortions that were not medically necessary. I stand by my statement. George Tiller was no better than a hitman, as he killed for profit. I do not condone his murder and I hope the man who killed him is given life in prison or death.

45 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:47:24pm

Did anyone notice this on Drudge yet?

Air France received a bomb threat in Argentina, just days before their plane went down on the way to Brazil.

46 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:48:17pm

re: #41 avanti

How the hell could he do 60,000 ? There are about 1000/ year done nationally. Assume he did them all he would have started 60 years ago and his was not the only clinic. It's a bull shit figure to incite the pro lifers.

1000? what done nationally? Abortions? late term abortions?

47 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:48:50pm

If I were Obama, I would assign this woman and anyone else publicly spewing vitriol as caustic and noxious, their very own personal Federal Marshall. Before the other two doctors in the US who perform necessary third trimester abortions are blown away, and women start dropping dead from lethal pregnancies that no one has the expertise and the courage to address.

48 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:48:54pm

re: #43 Dianna

Dianna, I hope that your family issues are getting resolved, easily.
Well, as easily as possible.

49 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:49:00pm

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

They may disagree, but Tiller also performed late-term abortions that were not medically necessary. I stand by my statement. George Tiller was no better than a hitman, as he killed for profit. I do not condone his murder and I hope the man who killed him is given life in prison or death.

If he performed late-term abortions that were "not medically necessary," he somehow tricked another doctor into signing off on them, and somehow escaped the notice of the state of Kansas in doing so -- because that would be a serious crime. Please back up that accusation with something.

50 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:49:24pm

I smile when I read about some miscreant breaking into a house, assaulting someone, or trying to do a carjacking and getting killed by their intended victim.

This - ain't that. It was murder and the murderer should bear the fullest penalty of law available.

I find Dr. Tillman's profession abhorrent. However the law says it is legal and I support a nation of laws.

51 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:49:27pm

re: #48 Floral Giraffe

Dianna, I hope that your family issues are getting resolved, easily.
Well, as easily as possible.

Thank you.

52 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:49:44pm

re: #23 DistantThunder

The number I've heard is 60,000. I worked for an ObGYN clinic for one summer in which one of the multiple doctors did 1st trimester abortions. He could to 5-6 per day.

That would take 40 years with weekends and holidays off. I'm hearing this 60000 number a lot and haven't seen a shred of proof. These numbers just throw up my bullshit flag really quickly and the inability of the average American to "do the math" never ceases to amaze me.

53 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:50:26pm

re: #51 Dianna

The elder care & protection is hard. I'm doing it too.

54 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:51:05pm

re: #53 Floral Giraffe

The elder care & protection is hard. I'm doing it too.

Again, thanks, but I can't discuss it in an open forum. I appreciate your support.

55 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:52:31pm

re: #54 Dianna

Was not prying. You do what you have to do. And it gets done. Stay strong & keep doing the right thing.
That's all.

56 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:53:54pm

re: #46 DistantThunder

1000? what done nationally? Abortions? late term abortions?

Late term. The inference by O'reily and others was 60,000 late term abortions when it was under 300 a year at his clinic.

57 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:55:19pm

re: #55 Floral Giraffe

Was not prying. You do what you have to do. And it gets done. Stay strong & keep doing the right thing.
That's all.

No, no! I didn't think you were prying!

I'm just being very careful about what I say about this on line.

58 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:57:19pm

re: #41 avanti

How the hell could he do 60,000 ? There are about 1000/ year done nationally. Assume he did them all he would have started 60 years ago and his was not the only clinic. It's a bull shit figure to incite the pro lifers.

That's the number Operation Rescue types pimp out. There are other doctors at the clinic, but even with help that number is impossible if they are saying they are all late term. At the root of this they are probably counting all abortions, not just late term, and then exaggerating wildly.

59 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:57:25pm

re: #49 Charles

If he performed late-term abortions that were "not medically necessary," he somehow tricked another doctor into signing off on them, and somehow escaped the notice of the state of Kansas in doing so -- because that would be a serious crime. Please back up that accusation with something.

I'll be honest: What I know about Tiller I learned from Bill O'Reilly. What I heard on his show about Tiller appalled me. I've never done research of my own on the issue. If in light of that you would like me to back off on this topic. I will do so.

60 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:58:08pm

re: #18 wee fury

Gingi Edwards also states:
"I mean, I personally would not shoot an abortionist, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else"

This person needs some serious historical education.

What a hypocrite.

Gingi ought to try this one out:
"I mean, I personally would not have an abortion, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else?"

Abortion is legal. Don't like it? Then don't have one.

61 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:58:21pm

re: #37 reine.de.tout

What is needed from any pro-life organization is not violence, but positive actions to encourage the choice of life, and to provide whatever support people need to make and follow-through with that choice.

My son's birthmother made that choice, but she needed to know someone would be eager to adopt her child. The real follow through answer is going to be to create a greater interest in adoption (do you hear, me pro-life men? I'm looking at you, Bill O'Reilly) than has been evidenced so far in our society.

62 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:59:31pm

re: #56 avanti

Late term. The inference by O'reily and others was 60,000 late term abortions when it was under 300 a year at his clinic.

See what I mean. If that rate is correct, then that 60000 would take 200 years. Was Tillman performing late term abortions in 1809?

I want one of the people throwing this 60000 number around to back it up with some evidence. I'm sure O'reilly would be screaming for that data if this was an issue he was on the opposite side of.

63 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:00:27pm

re: #57 Dianna

Nobodies business, but your own.
Stay strong!

64 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:00:49pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

I'll be honest: What I know about Tiller I learned from Bill O'Reilly. What I heard on his show about Tiller appalled me. I've never done research of my own on the issue. If in light of that you would like me to back off on this topic. I will do so.

O'Reilly got his info from Randall Terry, he probably did some minimal fact checking. Remember that a jury found the Dr. innocent of all the charges recently, and that this was Phil Klines personal crusade while he was AG in Kansas. If there had been a real smoking gun there believe me that Phil would have used it. Instead everything he tried got struck down or tossed out of court.

65 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:02:40pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

I'll be honest: What I know about Tiller I learned from Bill O'Reilly. What I heard on his show about Tiller appalled me. I've never done research of my own on the issue. If in light of that you would like me to back off on this topic. I will do so.

Dark, if all you know about Tiller you learned from O'Reilly, that's a perfect example of the effect he had on viewers.
As I said in another post, if I accepted O'Reilly's claim that Tiller aborted 60,000 healthy babies at $5000 each, I'd be outraged as you.

66 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:02:51pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

I'll be honest: What I know about Tiller I learned from Bill O'Reilly. What I heard on his show about Tiller appalled me. I've never done research of my own on the issue. If in light of that you would like me to back off on this topic. I will do so.

Wow. OK. So you're just repeating what you heard O'Reilly say. Did you even know that Kansas law requires two independent doctors to certify that a late term abortion is medically necessary?

Dr. Tiller was put on trial because there was an allegation that the second doctor he consulted in one case was not truly independent from him. And he was acquitted on all charges in that case. Don't you think that if there had really been cases in which he performed late term abortions without following the law, his enemies would have made sure he was prosecuted?

67 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:02:56pm

re: #56 avanti

Late term. The inference by O'reily and others was 60,000 late term abortions when it was under 300 a year at his clinic.

It's interesting that no one has televised an abortion, when so many people feel that abortion is healthy, empowering, and a threatened right. We see every other type of surgery performed on TV including heart transplants and controversial sex change operations. I guess abortion is the last frontier for TV.

68 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:04:16pm

I think we've just witnessed a textbook example of what Bill O'Reilly's demonization of Dr. Tiller achieved.

69 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:05:02pm

Dark Falcon: Just like Discovery Institute sometimes lies for Jesus, so to do some of the more rabid anti-abortion opponents from Wichita.

70 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:06:19pm

re: #68 Charles

I think we've just witnessed a textbook example of what Bill O'Reilly's demonization of Dr. Tiller achieved.

And, how sad is it, that "we the people" are being led by a TV talking head?

71 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:06:58pm

re: #67 DistantThunder

It's interesting that no one has televised an abortion, when so many people feel that abortion is healthy, empowering, and a threatened right. We see every other type of surgery performed on TV including heart transplants and controversial sex change operations. I guess abortion is the last frontier for TV.

I'd be willing to have a vacuum abortion televized, if it was followed by a videotape of a desperate women trying to self-abort with a knitting needle, and hemorrhaging to death on her bathroom floor.

Image: 565-260-166.jpg

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:07:56pm

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

A lot of people need that. Just yesterday I helped a customer who had a totenkopf patch on his vest. I don't know if he was an actual Nazi but it was all I could do not to scream at him: "How can you wear that monstrous symbol?! Don't you know what it means?!"

Kid at the school I teach at showed up to class with "88" and a swastika inked on the back of his hand. Teacher who caught him was not happy.

73 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:07:58pm

re: #67 DistantThunder

It's interesting that no one has televised an abortion, when so many people feel that abortion is healthy, empowering, and a threatened right. We see every other type of surgery performed on TV including heart transplants and controversial sex change operations. I guess abortion is the last frontier for TV.

Abortion is a tragic choice, and I hate that it's used for birth control even early. I'm pro choice, that does not mean I or most other like minded folks are pro abortion. We should all agree to try and prevent unwanted pregnancies, and make as make options as possible to avoid abortions. As someone said "Safe, legal, and rare"

74 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:09:40pm
There is no doubt that Tiller deserved to be executed for his crimes. I just would have preferred a state sanctioned lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, electric chair, good old fashioned stoning, what have you.

I knew stoning would come into this somehow, "good, old fashioned," no less.
The crazy is strong with this one.

75 Mich-again  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:09:54pm

re: #28 Charles

And in every case, he followed the laws of the state of Kansas, which require that two independent doctors certify a medical necessity for the abortion. The women whose lives were saved by making the wrenching, painful decision to have late term abortions disagree with your assessment of Tiller as a "bad man."

First, the medical necessity includes mental harm whatever that means. But it sure seems like the (as in one) 2nd opinion doctor was essentially on his payroll according to the evidence from the recent case in Kansas where he was acquitted by the jury of circumventing the law. This case was a couple months ago and Operation Rescue members were at the court house during the case.

Tiller was charged with 19 criminal misdemeanor counts. Kansas law requires that a physician get a second opinion from a doctor with whom he or she has no legal or financial ties before terminating a pregnancy of longer than 22 weeks when the fetus is considered "viable" (able to survive outside the womb). The consulting doctor must agree that continuing a pregnancy to term would cause "substantial and irreversible harm" to the woman, including mental or emotional harm....

The prosecution tried to show that Tiller's relationship to Neuhaus, who provided referrals in 2003 for the 19 women whose late-term abortions were the basis of the criminal charges, was not financially independent.

Disney said that Neuhaus, a witness for the state who received a grant of immunity to testify, essentially functioned as Tiller's employee. She saw his patients at his office, and on his schedule. Also, in 2003, Tiller's patients provided her with her only income.

And, in what Disney described as "the smoking gun," Tiller's own day planner reflected that in 1999, he had discussed on the phone the rate that Neuhaus would charge his patients for a consultation (Tiller had written "$200-$250").

"He wasn't just writing down what she said she was going to charge," said Disney. "He was negotiating and working with her on the amount she was going to charge."

As for Operation Rescue, I would investigate all of the ones who were involved at the court house in Kansas to see if there was a conspiracy among them to kill Tiller after the trial. I disagree with what he was doing for a living, but any person involved in any way with the plot to kill him should be charged and hopefully convicted.

76 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:11:11pm

re: #68 Charles

I think we've just witnessed a textbook example of what Bill O'Reilly's demonization of Dr. Tiller achieved.

I don't entirely agree. O'Reilly never called for violence. It is true that his main objection to Tiller was religious (as is mine), but I do not see him as guilty of incitement.

As for the two doctors rule in Kansas, I did not know that. I don't know what else to say. On this issue, I wasn't interested in doing my own research and I simply accepted someone else's conclusions. I admit it. Do you have any links you would recommend to me?

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:13:00pm

re: #40 DistantThunder

We had a woman come through the office i worked for 6 years. A nurse at stanford, she had been exposed to radiation while pregnant and the baby didn't have a brain only a brain stem. Stanford MD's told her to abort, but she was LDS, and chose not to do that. I had to schedule her on our non-OB days so she didn't sit in the waiting room with other pregnant women and feel badly. The baby was born and lived for about 6 hours. They had beautiful pictures of her which they brought in and showed us. Wrapped up in a pink blanket she looked like any other beautiful newborn.

A tragedy. What a hard thing for a family to go through.

78 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:13:20pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

I don't entirely agree. O'Reilly never called for violence. It is true that his main objection to Tiller was religious (as is mine), but I do not see him as guilty of incitement.

As for the two doctors rule in Kansas, I did not know that. I don't know what else to say. On this issue, I wasn't interested in doing my own research and I simply accepted someone else's conclusions. I admit it. Do you have any links you would recommend to me?

When O'Reilly constantly refers to Dr. Tiller as Tiller the Baby Killer and repeatedly compares him to Joseph Mengele, why should anyone be surprised that some sick bastard's trigger gets tripped?

79 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:14:57pm

Here's a story from 1999, current once again:

Court Rules Site Is a Menace

After a three-week trial and more than five days of deliberations, the jury agreed with plaintiffs who argued that The Nuremberg Files Web site and wanted-man-style posters depicting physicians who performed abortions intimidated doctors and limited access to abortion clinics.
"The jury saw anti-choice wanted posters for what they are: a hit list for terrorists," said Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood Federation of America.
....
Anti-abortion activists defended their activities on First Amendment grounds, saying they merely collected information in anticipation of a day when doctors who performed abortions would be put on trial for murder. They said they could not be held accountable for the violent actions of others.

But the plaintiffs said the publication of such detailed information amounted to a threat of bodily harm in a heated atmosphere of clinic bombings, burnings, shootings, and acid attacks.[Link: www.wired.com...]

80 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:15:19pm

There is one comment I would like to make - I think Roeder's trigger was pretty much tripped, no matter what O'Reilly said.

I despise O'Reilly's demonization, and his repetition of wildly exaggerated claims. He deserves deep condemnation on that point in particular.

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:16:07pm

re: #67 DistantThunder

It's interesting that no one has televised an abortion, when so many people feel that abortion is healthy, empowering, and a threatened right. We see every other type of surgery performed on TV including heart transplants and controversial sex change operations. I guess abortion is the last frontier for TV.

Abortion is never a feel-good thing, even for those of us who think it needs to be legal. People are happy after heart transplants and sex-change operations.

82 WindHorse  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:16:35pm

How can anyone take Bill O'Reilly seriously on any level?

83 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:17:13pm

re: #78 Salamantis

When O'Reilly constantly refers to Dr. Tiller as Tiller the Baby Killer and repeatedly compares him to Joseph Mengele, why should anyone be surprised that some sick bastard's trigger gets tripped?

Tiller was on no way similar to Mengele. Women came to Tiller for his very expensive services of their own free will and they paid in full, since most insurance policies do not cover this procedure. Mengele's victims were prisoners condemned to death, who had no choice to "opt out" of anything he wanted to experiment on them.

84 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:17:13pm

re: #75 Mich-again

That case just reeks of prosecutorial misconduct. The State Board of Healing Arts recommended that Tiller consult with Neuhaus, then when he did they offered her immunity in order to get her to testify against him.

It's no wonder he was acquitted.

85 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:17:24pm

O'Reilly demagogued this on his show 28 different episodes. Every terrorist needs sympathizers to exist. Every terrorist needs justifications and rationalizations to perform their evil deeds.

The people who go overboard with that kind of help are not complicit, but they sure don't do anything to restrain these nuts either.

86 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:17:34pm

re: #79 jaunte

The 'Nuremberg' site, linked at the Wired article, has a page about "Tiller the Killer" as they call him.

87 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:18:05pm

re: #77 SanFranciscoZionist

A tragedy. What a hard thing for a family to go through.

It was hard but they were very happy to hold their baby. When she showed us the pictures she was grinning from ear to ear like any proud mother would be. They were able to give her a name and a special blessing before she passed away. It all seemed very healthy but poignant mixed with happiness and sadness. Had she just had the abortion, she would have only had the sadness.

88 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:18:49pm

I'm off to Google this gem:
"State Board of Healing Arts"

89 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:18:59pm

re: #79 jaunte

Say what you will about the late Jerry Falwell but he too a very hard line on anti-abortion violence and incitement. I remember him discussing this very case with Alan Dershowitz.
Dershowitz, the pro-choice liberal, defended the site owners on First Amendment grounds. Falwell, the pro-life conservative, said they should be in prison.

90 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:19:05pm

re: #87 DistantThunder

It was hard but they were very happy to hold their baby. When she showed us the pictures she was grinning from ear to ear like any proud mother would be. They were able to give her a name and a special blessing before she passed away. It all seemed very healthy but poignant mixed with happiness and sadness. Had she just had the abortion, she would have only had the sadness.

Did they give permission to harvest her organs for other sick babies?

91 RememberSekhmet?  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:19:20pm

I think abortion is a necessary evil. Some pregnancies occur in circumstances that go beyond merely bad into the downright sh*tty, and there is sometimes a problem with the mother, the father, or the baby that will crop up long before the baby is viable.

The law is too blunt an instrument to only make abortion legal in circumstances people are OK with without allowing them in circumstances in which we are less OK. Also, a fetus the mother cannot go to a clinic to kill, she also cannot allow to die through negligence. Negligence as defined by.....what, exactly? It can mean anything from smoking crack during pregnancy to making less conventional birth choices (such as home birth). Sh*t happens during pregnancy, and often for no real discernible reason. The only way to minimize risk is to micromanage pregnancy---which only makes pregnancy more expensive and less likely to be risked.

That being said, abortion is a tragic option, and used far too often in my opinion.

92 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:19:28pm

re: #83 Alouette

Tiller was on no way similar to Mengele. Women came to Tiller for his very expensive services of their own free will and they paid in full, since most insurance policies do not cover this procedure. Mengele's victims were prisoners condemned to death, who had no choice to "opt out" of anything he wanted to experiment on them.

And Dr. Tiller's services didn't maim or kill those women; instead, those services saved their lives.

I know this. You know this. Someone should clue in O'Reilly.

93 pink freud  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:19:32pm

re: #52 ArchangelMichael

That would take 40 years with weekends and holidays off. I'm hearing this 60000 number a lot and haven't seen a shred of proof. These numbers just throw up my bullshit flag really quickly and the inability of the average American to "do the math" never ceases to amaze me.

Here are some stats. According to this link, there are 16,450 abortions per year performed after the 20th week of pregnancy in the United States.

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:19:48pm

re: #83 Alouette

Tiller was on no way similar to Mengele. Women came to Tiller for his very expensive services of their own free will and they paid in full, since most insurance policies do not cover this procedure. Mengele's victims were prisoners condemned to death, who had no choice to "opt out" of anything he wanted to experiment on them.

Without agreeing to a word she wrote, including 'the', 'and' and 'but', I think her argument would be that the children aborted did not have a way to opt out.

I also think 'of one's own free will' may be something of an exaggeration, considering the circumstances that lead most women to seek a late-term abortion. They weren't coerced, but their choices were constrained by circumstances.

95 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:20:25pm

re: #89 Shiplord Kirel

Dershowitz might have had a different opinion if they had been stalking attorneys.

96 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:20:50pm

re: #80 Dianna

There is one comment I would like to make - I think Roeder's trigger was pretty much tripped, no matter what O'Reilly said.

I despise O'Reilly's demonization, and his repetition of wildly exaggerated claims. He deserves deep condemnation on that point in particular.

That much is true. In a interview with Roeder's ex wife, his train went off the track on abortion long before O'Reilly, but it sure did not help with all the murderer talk.

97 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:20:57pm

re: #90 Alouette

Did they give permission to harvest her organs for other sick babies?

Gosh, this was 30 years ago, so I don't know.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:21:01pm

re: #87 DistantThunder

It was hard but they were very happy to hold their baby. When she showed us the pictures she was grinning from ear to ear like any proud mother would be. They were able to give her a name and a special blessing before she passed away. It all seemed very healthy but poignant mixed with happiness and sadness. Had she just had the abortion, she would have only had the sadness.

Then they did what was right for their family, no question.

99 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:21:18pm

re: #78 Salamantis

Bingo, I wish I could give you a thousand updings for that. The demonization and incitement against Dr. Tiller who was performing legal medical procedures was a tactic straight out of Nazi Germany, at this point I could care less about Godwin's law.

100 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:21:50pm

re: #89 Shiplord Kirel

Falwell could surprise people. I always tried to remember that, when he'd spout off with some statement that either made me think him a bigoted fool or made my blood boil.

101 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:21:52pm

re: #68 Charles

I watched him tonight, and he was so smarmy and mocking re the late Dr. Tiller that I never heard it all, as I changed the channel. After, IIRC, he claimed at least 3 times that he never said 'Tiller the baby killer'?

Sanctimonious smirk.

/I guess he thinks everyone has a hearing problem.

Feh!

He was very proud of himself.

102 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:22:35pm

re: #93 pink freud

Here are some stats. According to this link, there are 16,450 abortions per year performed after the 20th week of pregnancy in the United States.

and Dr. Tiller doesn't perform them all.

103 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:22:40pm

re: #95 jaunte

Dershowitz might have had a different opinion if they had been stalking attorneys.

Good point. As a prominent ACLU lawyer, his day may be coming if the crazies get around to it.

104 Chekote  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:23:05pm
These numbers just throw up my bullshit flag really quickly and the inability of the average American to "do the math" never ceases to amaze me.

Ditto. Actually, the average Americans lately seems unable to do any critical thinking.

105 Mich-again  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:23:12pm

re: #84 Charles

That case just reeks of prosecutorial misconduct. The State Board of Healing Arts recommended that Tiller consult with Neuhaus, then when he did they offered her immunity in order to get her to testify against him.

It's no wonder he was acquitted.

Agreed that its no wonder he was acquitted in that case. But he did more than just consult with her. She was using his office and making money from him for granting the 2nd opinion.

I don't think that the fact that the State Board of Healing referred him to her was a green light to circumvent the law with her.

106 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:23:57pm

I am not anti-abortion. In some cases it is tragically acceptable.

I am pro life because life begins at conception and science is on my side.

I hate excessive taxation.

I would gladly pay double taxes if we could just organize ourselves to offer a real alternative to the troubled mother who is contemplating abortion. We have an $11 TRILLION dollar economy. We have a government that spends HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS a year. Why can we not offer an alternative for unwanted children? These children are national ASSETS. Can we not create a loving and nurturing environment for these babies? How much do babies really cost? Not so much from my direct experience.

Create a huge Baby Town. Hire all the teachers, nurses, doctors, grannies-looking-for-sidework we can find. Why not try it in the Michigan area with its 10%+ unemployment? How much would it really cost? Nurture them and educate them as best as possible until they are 18 years old then wish them the best. I can't wait for our first Baby Town graduate to become President.

Politically this issue will never be resolved. There will be no "winner". No side will convince the other. Victory is impossible. Only outrage. There will be no winners here. It is fundamental conflict.

Bill Clinton said "abortion should be safe, legal and rare."

Lets offer a real option to making it "rare".

Tax me for it. I'll pay.

107 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:24:22pm

re: #93 pink freud

Here are some stats. According to this link, there are 16,450 abortions per year performed after the 20th week of pregnancy in the United States.

And a bit over a 1000 3rd trimester(late term)/year.

108 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:24:26pm

re: #105 Mich-again

Would the second doctor normally give an opinion for no fee?

109 kynna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:25:05pm

re: #83 Alouette

Tiller was on no way similar to Mengele. Women came to Tiller for his very expensive services of their own free will and they paid in full, since most insurance policies do not cover this procedure. Mengele's victims were prisoners condemned to death, who had no choice to "opt out" of anything he wanted to experiment on them.

I think the Mengele comparison is that the baby has no choice to opt out. If someone feels the baby is a human being at conception, or at least at heartbeat, then they're going to see the termination as an act of murder. And if it's a doctor doing it -- "first, do no harm" and all that -- they see it as even more nefarious.

FTR: I'm NOT equating Tiller to Mengele, I'm just opining as to WHY he's being equated with the Nazi.

110 Mich-again  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:25:22pm

re: #108 jaunte

Would the second doctor normally give an opinion for no fee?

Does the first doctor ever pay for it?

111 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:25:47pm

re: #93 pink freud

Here are some stats. According to this link, there are 16,450 abortions per year performed after the 20th week of pregnancy in the United States.

The third trimester only begins at the end of the 26th week. So only abortions performed after that are considered to be late-term.

Abortions performed in the second trimester, between the 13th and the 26th week of pregnancy, are considered to be mid-term.

112 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:25:48pm

re: #110 Mich-again

I think the fee comes from the patient.

113 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:26:48pm

re: #104 Chekote

Ditto. Actually, the average Americans lately seems unable to do any critical thinking.

Thank the federal Education Department and Jimmy Carter.

*spit*

This 'thinking' thing you espouse, it is not welcome in today's schools.

114 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:27:28pm

Zooborns has kitties!
[Link: www.zooborns.com...]

(Totally & deliberately off topic)

115 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:27:59pm

re: #106 experiencedtraveller

I am not anti-abortion. In some cases it is tragically acceptable.

I am pro life because life begins at conception and science is on my side.

I agree with this. But where I differ from you is your "Baby Town" idea. I do wonder if we can't offer women a tax credit for choosing adoption. It's a good choice, and even if it could be considered selling a baby- I still don't see how it's wrong if the baby lives and is given to a home that wants that child. There are millions of couples waiting to adopt babies- we hardly need a baby town. Just an incentive for women to choose it. If we have to lure them with some money- I think the cost would be worth it.

116 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:28:23pm

re: #92 Salamantis

No matter how much even the most world-renowned Obstetrician, Professor, name it, would try to enlighten O'Reilly, he would not change his mind at all...he is so convinced that he is always right.

117 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:28:39pm

re: #106 experiencedtraveller


I've always thought that those of us who are pro-life had better be willing to start adopting (or donating to adoption charities in a big way) if abortion ever became illegal.

118 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:28:40pm

re: #114 Floral Giraffe

Zooborns has kitties!
[Link: www.zooborns.com...]

(Totally & deliberately off topic)

And baby lemurs!

119 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:29:15pm

re: #116 NY Nana

He keeps his hands very clean.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:29:30pm

re: #114 Floral Giraffe

Zooborns has kitties!
[Link: www.zooborns.com...]

(Totally & deliberately off topic)

Cuties. They do look just like housecats, don't they?

Saw a great TV show about raising tiger cubs in captivity. They're really darn cute.

121 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:29:37pm

I volunteered for a pregnancy support group that provided clothing and living arrangements for pregnant mothers. It was very rewarding. I also have an adopted son from an unwed teenage mother.

122 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:30:07pm

re: #118 Sharmuta

And, if you keep scrolling down, a precocious anteater baby!

123 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:30:16pm

One other note: I don't know if I trust CBR and their stats, they are one of the "in your face" groups. They characterize abortion as genocide and make the nazi death camp comparisons as well. I count them among the "Roeder enablers".

Also be advised that the site at that link has very graphic photos. If you are going to post something like that you should put up a warning.

124 Mich-again  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:30:23pm

re: #112 jaunte

I think the fee comes from the patient.

I agree but it is odd that she used his office if it was really an independent opinion. But the story said that in some cases she refused to grant the 2nd opinion so that does show there was some degree of independent diagnosis. That was probably part of the reason Tiller was acquitted.

125 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:30:32pm

re: #121 DistantThunder

I volunteered for a pregnancy support group that provided clothing and living arrangements for pregnant mothers. It was very rewarding. I also have an adopted son from an unwed teenage mother.

I have a sister who was adopted from an unwed friend of the family.

126 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:31:08pm

re: #99 MrPaulRevere

Bingo, I wish I could give you a thousand updings for that. The demonization and incitement against Dr. Tiller who was performing legal medical procedures was a tactic straight out of Nazi Germany, at this point I could care less about Godwin's law.

Zealots have already tripped Godwin's Law on this one. They are wrong to compare Tiller to Mengele and the very comparison is grotesque as has been explained above. I will never admire or praise George Tiller but I will say that he never showed any sign of sadism nor any enjoyment of killing. The same cannot be said of Scott Roeder. So I will say one more thing: George Tiller was a better man than Scott Roeder.

127 Bill K.  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:31:23pm

These anti-abortion fanatics would be right at home in the Taliban. They are driven by the same lust to control and blind faith (is there any other kind?) that the Taliban exhibit when they stone a woman for adultery. They cannot get it through their thick skulls that the woman's own life must come first. She is not a brood sow that must be condemned to carry through an unwanted pregnancy and a lifetime duty to that offspring.

The antithesis of the blind hate-filled religious fanaticism that motivates these killers is the philosophy of Ayn Rand:


If any among you are confused or taken in by the argument that the cells of an embryo are living human cells, remember that so are all the cells of your body, including the cells of your skin, your tonsils, or your ruptured appendix—and that cutting them is murder, according to the notions of that proposed law. Remember also that a potentiality is not the equivalent of an actuality—and that a human being’s life begins at birth.

The question of abortion involves much more than the termination of a pregnancy: it is a question of the entire life of the parents. As I have said before, parenthood is an enormous responsibility; it is an impossible responsibility for young people who are ambitious and struggling, but poor; particularly if they are intelligent and conscientious enough not to abandon their child on a doorstep nor to surrender it to adoption. For such young people, pregnancy is a death sentence: parenthood would force them to give up their future, and condemn them to a life of hopeless drudgery, of slavery to a child’s physical and financial needs. The situation of an unwed mother, abandoned by her lover, is even worse.

I cannot quite imagine the state of mind of a person who would wish to condemn a fellow human being to such a horror. I cannot project the degree of hatred required to make those women run around in crusades against abortion. Hatred is what they certainly project, not love for the embryos, which is a piece of nonsense no one could experience, but hatred, a virulent hatred for an unnamed object. Judging by the degree of those women’s intensity, I would say that it is an issue of self-esteem and that their fear is metaphysical. Their hatred is directed against human beings as such, against the mind, against reason, against ambition, against success, against love, against any value that brings happiness to human life. In compliance with the dishonesty that dominates today’s intellectual field, they call themselves “pro-life.”

By what right does anyone claim the power to dispose of the lives of others and to dictate their personal choices?

“The Age of Mediocrity,”
The Objectivist Forum, June 1981, 3

128 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:31:38pm

re: #121 DistantThunder

I volunteered for a pregnancy support group that provided clothing and living arrangements for pregnant mothers. It was very rewarding. I also have an adopted son from an unwed teenage mother.

And that type of group will be much more effective in saving babies than Operation Rescue's protests and violence.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:31:39pm

Oy, check out the prairie dog pups!

130 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:31:47pm

re: #114 Floral Giraffe

That was gratuitous.

Do any of the zoos have programs to reintroduce their LOLcats back into their natural habitat?

131 kynna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:32:07pm

re: #117 EmmmieG

I've always thought that those of us who are pro-life had better be willing to start adopting (or donating to adoption charities in a big way) if abortion ever became illegal.

I know several people who have been trying for years to get a baby through adoption. And a few who adopted in China. Adoptive parents are out there. It's available babies that are lacking.

If I could help match some of my friends with a newborn whose mother cared enough to at least bring it into the world, it would make me as happy as I was at my own children's births. Adoption is a truly beautiful gift.

132 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:32:16pm

re: #122 Floral Giraffe

And, if you keep scrolling down, a precocious anteater baby!

And a cute baby baboon with a mohawk.

133 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:33:33pm

The stupid is strong in this one.

134 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:33:48pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

Cuties. They do look just like housecats, don't they?

Saw a great TV show about raising tiger cubs in captivity. They're really darn cute.

Until they grow up. Then they are still beautiful, but they can tear your guts out in seconds.

135 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:34:21pm

I looked for some background on Edmonds and found she's a former employee of Disneyland, and a fan of (1) Japanese anime and (2) World of Warcraft. She also has a separate blog for non-abortion topics, with interests ranging from astrology to Bible study. Nothing wrong with any of that, of course, but something about the total mix gives me strange, strange vibes about her world view.

136 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:34:54pm

I know this issue really hits a nerve with some people, but please - look into the facts before you pass judgement.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:35:09pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Until they grow up. Then they are still beautiful, but they can tear your guts out in seconds.

Well, yes. When they get big, the people who raise them move them into an enclosure with the big tigers. ;)

When they're small, though, you can give them baths in the bathtub.

138 freetoken  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:35:35pm

OT: The Obama-is-a-sekrit-Muslim-confirmed theme is still roaring through the right-o-sphere tonight. Those embers will likely still me smoldering decades from now.

139 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:35:49pm

re: #129 SanFranciscoZionist

Oy, check out the prairie dog pups!

And the baby panda.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:37:04pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

And the baby panda.

OK, so everyone else is just as eager to look at cute pictures of baby animals as I am?

141 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:38:07pm
142 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:38:25pm

re: #135 ShanghaiEd

So...endorsing and cheerleading the murder of abortion providers doesn't creep you out as much as the affinity for World of Warcraft or anime?

143 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:38:38pm

I found this audio link of dr tiller stating that he has done 60,000 abortions.

I looked for it after seeing 'his admission' referred to in multiple articles. Whether this is actually him or not......and it comes from an anti-abortion site, it sounds medically authentic as he says, "terminations of pregnancies", and not abortions.

144 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:39:06pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

I agree with this. But where I differ from you is your "Baby Town" idea. I do wonder if we can't offer women a tax credit for choosing adoption. It's a good choice, and even if it could be considered selling a baby- I still don't see how it's wrong if the baby lives and is given to a home that wants that child. There are millions of couples waiting to adopt babies- we hardly need a baby town. Just an incentive for women to choose it. If we have to lure them with some money- I think the cost would be worth it.

Not too keen on BabyTown either but promoting (really promoting, not just vocally) adoption is the way to reduce abortions. Allow pregnant mothers considering abortion and couples unable to conceive to get together from the beginning with little interference from busy-body social engineers or any coercion either (obviously background checks should be required). All the medical bills for the duration of the pregnancy and the delivery are on the adopters' and not the taxpayers' dime and this whole operation is guaranteed by an airtight contract between the parties. Pass legislation giving the right to unpaid maternity leave for the whole 9 months for women in this program.

145 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:39:49pm

re: #135 ShanghaiEd

Astrology and Bible study are theologically incompatible.

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:40:37pm

re: #142 Fenway_Nation

So...endorsing and cheerleading the murder of abortion providers doesn't creep you out as much as the affinity for World of Warcraft or anime?

I know a number of people who are into one, the other, or both, and none of them have shown any inclination toward shooting people in real life, except as appropriate (Marines and such).

147 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:40:46pm

re: #101 NY Nana

I watched him tonight, and he was so smarmy and mocking re the late Dr. Tiller that I never heard it all, as I changed the channel. After, IIRC, he claimed at least 3 times that he never said 'Tiller the baby killer'?

Sanctimonious smirk.

/I guess he thinks everyone has a hearing problem.

Feh!

He was very proud of himself.

Nana, I luv ya. but, he never said he didn't say that. Watch the show again. It's on at least 2 more times in your time zone. He never said that.

148 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:41:04pm

re: #142 Fenway_Nation

So...endorsing and cheerleading the murder of abortion providers doesn't creep you out as much as the affinity for World of Warcraft or anime?

Re-read the statement - the whole mix creeps him out.

149 jzm  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:41:16pm

I can not wrap my mind around how anyone could abort a near full term baby for absolutely no reason (other than to save the mothers life) period.

I would like to know how many woman did he save in a years worth of late term abortions?
What are the real numbers?
Anything over 20 late term abortions to save a woman's life in a year seems dodgy in my opinion. Sorry.

In this day and age it should be rare and a low number because medical technology can save babies born prematurely by c-section you would think the same applies to saving the mother?

So Doctors cant do a c-section to save the mothers life without having to kill the baby?

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:41:53pm

re: #145 Dianna

Astrology and Bible study are theologically incompatible.

Depends, I suppose, on one's theology. Some of the great medieval rabbis were astrologers. Others condemned it as silly and heretical.

151 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:41:56pm

re: #145 Dianna

Astrology and Bible study are theologically incompatible.

The Magi relied on astrology...

152 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:42:25pm

re: #116 NY Nana

No matter how much even the most world-renowned Obstetrician, Professor, name it, would try to enlighten O'Reilly, he would not change his mind at all...he is so convinced that he is always right.

I've seen him argue with a pastor on a theological matter (on which he was CLEARLY wrong), and take that same attitude. He frequently talks out of his ass, and good luck trying to get him to admit it.

153 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:42:40pm

Good night. My dogs need a walk and I need some sleep.

154 Cheechako  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:42:50pm

How come I never see these anti-abortionist/right-to-lifers surrounded by "unwanted" children that they have adopted?

155 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:43:18pm

re: #149 jzm

I can not wrap my mind around how anyone could abort a near full term baby for absolutely no reason (other than to save the mothers life) period.

I would like to know how many woman did he save in a years worth of late term abortions?
What are the real numbers?
Anything over 20 late term abortions to save a woman's life in a year seems dodgy in my opinion. Sorry.

In this day and age it should be rare and a low number because medical technology can save babies born prematurely by c-section you would think the same applies to saving the mother?

So Doctors cant do a c-section to save the mothers life without having to kill the baby?

In a population exceeding 300 million, you can't see that 1000 of these procedures a year might be medically necessary?

That's only one per three hundred thousand people per year.

156 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:43:21pm

re: #149 jzm

Read the thread, there are testimonials and good reasons above.

157 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:43:48pm

re: #144 ArchangelMichael

Not too keen on BabyTown either but promoting (really promoting, not just vocally) adoption is the way to reduce abortions. Allow pregnant mothers considering abortion and couples unable to conceive to get together from the beginning with little interference from busy-body social engineers or any coercion either (obviously background checks should be required). All the medical bills for the duration of the pregnancy and the delivery are on the adopters' and not the taxpayers' dime and this whole operation is guaranteed by an airtight contract between the parties. Pass legislation giving the right to unpaid maternity leave for the whole 9 months for women in this program.

I think there are a number of ways we could promote adoption. If we're going to allow tax dollars to be used for other choices, why not for adoption too?

158 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:44:10pm

This is a picture of the late Dr. Tiller, a man who was active in his Church, and who's wife, while singing in the choir, saw her husband assassinated by a vile zealot, inside the Church during services.

He was an adult, with a family, who died because said zealot decided that he was G-d. I hope that he spends the rest of his miserable life in a maximum security prison if Kansas does not have a death penalty.

No MD of any repute would ever terminate an late-term pregnancy if there was not a good medical reason.

May he rest in peace, and may his bereaved wife and family find some comfort in knowing that he did what he felt was right. As a retired RN, I hope that they will find another OB who has his standards and courage, but I fear it will not happen, as those who might have will rightfully fear that another zealot would do the same to them.

159 Teh Flowah  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:44:55pm

re: #106 experiencedtraveller

I am pro life because life begins at conception and science is on my side.

Lets offer a real option to making it "rare".
Tax me for it. I'll pay.


Er, what? I mean sure "life" begins at conception, but not anything approaching a human life. Cells are "alive", but then you should cry every time you kill some cells, which is like, all the time. The question is at what point does the life become human. I'm unclear as to how you can claim to have science on your side because it is clearly not. Well, it's on your side as much as it is for the ID crowd.

Also, you can pay taxes for it, I won't.

160 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:44:59pm

It seems heads are exploding at PZ Meyer's site, as his readers don't know quite what to make of LGF's reaction to this craziness:

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

161 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:44:59pm

re: #155 Salamantis

In a population exceeding 300 million, you can't see that 1000 of these procedures a year might be medically necessary?

That's only one per three hundred thousand people per year.

...and they all traveled from throughout the US to Kansas?

162 jzm  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:45:02pm

re: #155 Salamantis

We don't live in the dark ages medically sorry.

Like I said why not do a c-section to save the mother?
That is all I'm asking.

163 freetoken  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:45:41pm

While abortion is probably a SocDefCon 1 level topic, I feel that there is no traction politically for any change on the issue... which is on reason why I basically ignore the topic...

Back to the sekrit-muslim theme... A couple of comments from Malkin's keypost on the Arkansas shooting non-comment by the President:

On June 2nd, 2009 at 10:02 pm, Bruce said:
Barry Soetoro (aka Barack Obama) is Muslim. He doesn’t speak out against the murder of the soldier by a Muslim because he is on the same side as the murderer is.

Contrariwise,Obama hates Christians and loves the murder of children. Tiller murdered 60,000 innocent people & now that he’s dead, Obama feels a deep loss.

Y’know, I’m really starting to despise the disgusting people that voted for Obama… only thing is that McCain would be about the same, so what’s the sense of holding a grudge?


-
Everything in that comment is to be expected. However, the following comment took me by surprise:

On June 2nd, 2009 at 9:48 pm, Tazed and Confused said:
I get now… BHO’s our “Panderer-in-Chief“…
At this point a military coup would be a great relief to this country… before the libs destroy our might … and timely too, with the Barack Hussein headed to Egypt to flaunt his touchy-feely Muslim side… [emp in original]

Yes, you read that right. On Malkin's website there is someone hoping for a coup. Personally I would have thought that Malkin's site editors would have deleted it, but oh well...

/I'm suppose they will blame some ACORN plant for that comment.

164 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:46:03pm

Here's Center for Bioethics Reform's latest campaign, I think Zombie also did an article on this:
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

165 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:47:28pm

re: #149 jzm

I can not wrap my mind around how anyone could abort a near full term baby for absolutely no reason (other than to save the mothers life) period.

I would like to know how many woman did he save in a years worth of late term abortions?
What are the real numbers?
Anything over 20 late term abortions to save a woman's life in a year seems dodgy in my opinion. Sorry.

In this day and age it should be rare and a low number because medical technology can save babies born prematurely by c-section you would think the same applies to saving the mother?

So Doctors cant do a c-section to save the mothers life without having to kill the baby?

I hate to bring up the story of a patient that decided to abort 16 week fetuses because she wasn't going to fit in her wedding dress. This is when i worked for the doctor that did not do abortions and he had to refer her out. The whole office had a big powow about it after she left that day. The person in tears was the pro-choice medical assistant, married, mother of 3, who was in the room for the ultrasound. She was devastated. The woman came back to us about a year later, all married, happy and pregnant with another baby - this time a boy successfully delivered. It's been 30 years and I still remember her face.

166 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:47:56pm

re: #154 Cheechako

How come I never see these anti-abortionist/right-to-lifers surrounded by "unwanted" children that they have adopted?

How many of these right-to-lifers folks do you know personally?

167 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:48:19pm

re: #154 Cheechako

How come I never see these anti-abortionist/right-to-lifers surrounded by "unwanted" children that they have adopted?

You would have no way of knowing if they adopted or not. Few know that I'm the adoptive mother of 1, natural mother of 6.

168 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:48:39pm

re: #161 slokat

...and they all traveled from throughout the US to Kansas?

Yep, or at least a third of them did. Because there were only three doctors nationally who were performing this medically necessary procedure.

And now there are only two. Who will have to perform 500 of them per year or triage which women live and which ones die of lethal pregnancies, unless some other courageous doctor takes up Dr. Tiller's mantle.

169 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:48:49pm

re: #163 freetoken

While abortion is probably a SocDefCon 1 level topic, I feel that there is no traction politically for any change on the issue... which is on reason why I basically ignore the topic...

Back to the sekrit-muslim theme... A couple of comments from Malkin's keypost on the Arkansas shooting non-comment by the President:

Yes, you read that right. On Malkin's website there is someone hoping for a coup. Personally I would have thought that Malkin's site editors would have deleted it, but oh well...

/I'm suppose they will blame some ACORN plant for that comment.

Geeze, that's as bad as what Crazy Pam puts on Atlas Shrieks.

170 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:49:00pm

re: #143 DistantThunder

I found this audio link of dr tiller stating that he has done 60,000 abortions.

I looked for it after seeing 'his admission' referred to in multiple articles. Whether this is actually him or not......and it comes from an anti-abortion site, it sounds medically authentic as he says, "terminations of pregnancies", and not abortions.

From TPM

"O'Reilly on Tiller: 60,000 Abortions
June 1, 2009, 10:59PM

On the 6/1/2009 "O'Reilly Report" on FoxNews, Bill O'Reilly repeated the claim that recently-murdered Dr. George Tiller had performed 60,000 abortions in his career. But is that possible?

Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973, so if Dr. Tiller's abortions were all legal, they would have been performed in the last 36 years. Sixty thousand divided by 36 is about 1,667 per year. If Dr. Tiller took 4 weeks of vacation, sick leave, or other non-working days each year, that means he performed about 35 abortions a week, or about one an hour (assuming a 9-to-5 day with an hour off for lunch).

Performing an abortion an hour every working day for 36 years is a pace that would have taxed Lou Gehrig. I don't believe it happened."

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:49:35pm

re: #149 jzm

I can not wrap my mind around how anyone could abort a near full term baby for absolutely no reason (other than to save the mothers life) period.

I would like to know how many woman did he save in a years worth of late term abortions?
What are the real numbers?
Anything over 20 late term abortions to save a woman's life in a year seems dodgy in my opinion. Sorry.

In this day and age it should be rare and a low number because medical technology can save babies born prematurely by c-section you would think the same applies to saving the mother?

So Doctors cant do a c-section to save the mothers life without having to kill the baby?

I don't know what the real numbers are, but please remember that there are only two or three doctors with practices offering this option in the whole country. The site Charles linked to with the personal stories included information from women coming from all over the place to Kansas because that's where the doctor and the legal ability to do this was.

A number of people have brought up the C-section question. I don't know enough about this medically. Is there a good, relatively neutral FAQ on all this somewhere?

172 Teh Flowah  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:49:38pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

I agree with this. But where I differ from you is your "Baby Town" idea. I do wonder if we can't offer women a tax credit for choosing adoption. It's a good choice, and even if it could be considered selling a baby- I still don't see how it's wrong if the baby lives and is given to a home that wants that child. There are millions of couples waiting to adopt babies- we hardly need a baby town. Just an incentive for women to choose it. If we have to lure them with some money- I think the cost would be worth it.

You're going to institute what amounts to a subsidy for people to be irresponsible? Having kids that they can't/won't take care of and are just going to shunt onto the state to responsibility for? There might well be millions of couples looking to adopt babies, yet we still have trouble finding homes for the ones we have now. Add to that the influx that would surely come from this tax credit. Oh baby, that sounds aweeeesome.

The problem with this country is that there are too many subsidies. I mean, you know who pays for subsidies right? The taxpayer, eventually. You're giving irresponsible parties a tax credit, a credit that must eventually be paid by someone else. Terrible idea.

Too many idiots already have too many kids, now they'll just get paid for it. Amazing.

173 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:50:13pm

re: #143 DistantThunder

I found this audio link of dr tiller stating that he has done 60,000 abortions.

I looked for it after seeing 'his admission' referred to in multiple articles. Whether this is actually him or not......and it comes from an anti-abortion site, it sounds medically authentic as he says, "terminations of pregnancies", and not abortions.

That website is vile and disgusting, and I don't trust a single thing on it.

Do the math. I don't know how long Dr. Tiller was in business, but if he was doing abortions for 20 years, he would have had to do more than 8 abortions every single day, 365 days a year, in order to reach 60,000. That number is absurd. It's simple math.

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:51:41pm

re: #154 Cheechako

How come I never see these anti-abortionist/right-to-lifers surrounded by "unwanted" children that they have adopted?

How would you know if the children they had with them were adopted?

Of course, I was going to point out that many people who are pro-life adopt children, but the unfortunate first example that sprang into my mind was Fred Phelps. Sorry, everyone. I don't think he's normative. I don't even think he's normal.

Uh...McCain is pro-life, and he adopted a little girl. And found parents for another. Better example.

175 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:51:58pm

re: #167 DistantThunder

It is nobodies business but yours. Get the freaking government OUT of our lives.
'Rant off'

176 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:52:05pm

re: #162 jzm

We don't live in the dark ages medically sorry.

Like I said why not do a c-section to save the mother?
That is all I'm asking.

If your goal is to save the life of the mother, and the fetus is either already dead or so horribly deformed that it could not suvive long after a c section, if at all, medical ethics and basic human decency demand that the least intrusive and taxing procedure for the woman be chosen.

That's what it means to not live in the dark ages.

177 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:52:48pm

re: #168 Salamantis


How do you get three, than two?

The local planned parenthood in San Luis Obispo, Ca. has daily prayer picketers because they do late term abortions, surely that's not one of the supposedly only two that you are referencing?

178 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:52:51pm

re: #172 Teh Flowah

You're going to institute what amounts to a subsidy for people to be irresponsible? Having kids that they can't/won't take care of and are just going to shunt onto the state to responsibility for?

LOL! We already do this.

179 ihateronpaul  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:53:08pm

re: #96 avanti

That much is true. In a interview with Roeder's ex wife, his train went off the track on abortion long before O'Reilly, but it sure did not help with all the murderer talk.

O'Reilly is obsessed with having a "tough guy" image. And no, I haven't figured out why he chose the most pathetic looking image possible for the cover of "culture warrior"

180 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:53:38pm

re: #168 Salamantis

Yep, or at least a third of them did. Because there were only three doctors nationally who were performing this medically necessary procedure.

And now there are only two. Who will have to perform 500 of them per year or triage which women live and which ones die of lethal pregnancies, unless some other courageous doctor takes up Dr. Tiller's mantle.

You have to ask yourself, 350 million people and only 2 willing to do late term abortions....it could be the threats of violence keeping the numbers down, but I suspect that it is also the unsavory nature of the work,

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:54:20pm

re: #162 jzm

We don't live in the dark ages medically sorry.

Like I said why not do a c-section to save the mother?
That is all I'm asking.

A lot of these late-term abortions are not to save the mother's life, but because the fetus is seriously medically compromised. I'm not sure one can legally perform a C-section on a pre-term fetus under those conditions. Can you? I feel as though I need to go to law school, or medical school or something.

182 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:54:31pm

re: #106 experiencedtraveller

This is the Jewish concept of when life begins...

183 itellu3times  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:54:47pm

re: #176 Salamantis

If your goal is to save the life of the mother, and the fetus is either already dead or so horribly deformed that it could not suvive long after a c section, if at all, medical ethics and basic human decency demand that the least intrusive and taxing procedure for the woman be chosen.

That's what it means to not live in the dark ages.

Good grief, what a thread.

I would just ask if maybe c-section is exactly what Dr. Tiller did do, as often as not.

184 Teh Flowah  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:55:03pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

LOL! We already do this.

And you want to do more. Amazing!

185 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:55:18pm

re: #170 avanti

Tiller didn't work alone. He trained many Dr's that worked with and for him. The numbers may very well be for his entire clinic.

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:55:34pm

re: #165 DistantThunder

I hate to bring up the story of a patient that decided to abort 16 week fetuses because she wasn't going to fit in her wedding dress. This is when i worked for the doctor that did not do abortions and he had to refer her out. The whole office had a big powow about it after she left that day. The person in tears was the pro-choice medical assistant, married, mother of 3, who was in the room for the ultrasound. She was devastated. The woman came back to us about a year later, all married, happy and pregnant with another baby - this time a boy successfully delivered. It's been 30 years and I still remember her face.

I'm glad there was a happy ending.

I honestly thought that was an urban myth.

For real?

Whoa.

187 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:56:02pm

And you think you have a crappy job.

188 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:56:41pm

re: #177 slokat

How do you get three, than two?

The local planned parenthood in San Luis Obispo, Ca. has daily prayer picketers because they do late term abortions, surely that's not one of the supposedly only two that you are referencing?

It might be. It has widely been reported that Dr. Tiller was one of only three doctors performing late term abortions in the US.

Or maybe the antiabortionists are lying, in order to inflame the emotions of their foot soldier protesters. That happens a lot, too.

189 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:57:10pm

re: #175 Floral Giraffe

It is nobodies business but yours. Get the freaking government OUT of our lives.
'Rant off'

190 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:57:45pm

re: #160 Sharmuta

It seems heads are exploding at PZ Meyer's site, as his readers don't know quite what to make of LGF's reaction to this craziness:

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Here's a few confused liberals

"Posted by: Jeff F %P% June 2, 2009 8:43 PM

Someone posted a link to LittleGreenFootballs in the anti-abortion terrorist thread, and I've been checking the site out. It seems liberals and sane conservatives share some common ground.
This is a post from Charles, the owner of the site

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

It's sure a nice change from the typical Conservative hate site.
#297

Posted by: Stu Author Profile Page %P% June 2, 2009 9:06 PM

Yes, it looks like LGF's loons have filtered out over to Freeperland. The site owner actually sounds a lot like John Cole (www.balloon-juice.com), ca. 2004.
Let's give him a year or two. "

191 melinwy  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:58:05pm

re: #37 reine.de.tout

The conclusion (pasted above) is one of the most despicable things I've ever read in my life.

Abortion is legal in this country and that is not going to change (sadly, in my mind, but it's here to stay nevertheless).

What is needed from any pro-life organization is not violence, but positive actions to encourage the choice of life, and to provide whatever support people need to make and follow-through with that choice.

well I would say 99% is positive, not violent, do they have crazies? Of course case in point, but how can you taint an entire organization over one mans actions? Are we going to condemn all muslims for the act of the man yesterday who killed one and wounded another soldier?

192 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:58:18pm

re: #184 Teh Flowah

Give women a one time tax credit for a child they gave up for adoption? How is it any different than subsidizing an abortion?

Frankly, I wish that unwanted pregnancies didn't happen, but that's a pipe dream. Sorry- I would have no problem with my tax dollars supporting adoption over abortion.

193 itellu3times  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:58:43pm

re: #190 avanti

Here's a few confused liberals

No shortage of those around.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:59:09pm

re: #177 slokat

How do you get three, than two?

The local planned parenthood in San Luis Obispo, Ca. has daily prayer picketers because they do late term abortions, surely that's not one of the supposedly only two that you are referencing?

Three. Then Dr. Tiller was murdered. Then two.

Your local PP does third-trimester abortions? The protesters may think so, but I'd want to see more evidence. Link?

195 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:00:00pm

re: #193 itellu3times

No shortage of those around.

Hey, I resemble that !

196 Teh Flowah  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:00:09pm

re: #180 DistantThunder

You have to ask yourself, 350 million people and only 2 willing to do late term abortions....it could be the threats of violence keeping the numbers down, but I suspect that it is also the unsavory nature of the work,

Well let's see, 350 million is a terrible number because you're not thinking it through.

1. 350 million is probably an overestimate to start with.
2. Not all of them are of proper age. A lot of the "350 million" are too young or too old and retired
3. Not all of them have proper training. Not everyone of the age chose to be a doctor, and even if they went into the medical field, not all of them chose to work in pregnancy terminations. Honestly, what percentage of the working population do you think chose to go into the medical field, much less abortions.
4. You underestimate the threat, perceived or otherwise. Remember that there have been bombings of abortion clinics, threats made, craaaazy protesters. Is that really the type of job do you think most people want?

So once you eliminate anyone too old or too young, non-doctors, non-abortion specialists, and those scared off by the crazies, you're left with a much, much, much smaller number. I don't think the "unsavory nature" of the work scared most people off.

197 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:00:13pm

re: #180 DistantThunder

You have to ask yourself, 350 million people and only 2 willing to do late term abortions....it could be the threats of violence keeping the numbers down, but I suspect that it is also the unsavory nature of the work,

The very few people who subject themselves to the stigmatization, the threats, the danger of terrorist assassination, the inability to live safe, secure, normal lives, in order to perform this essential service are indeed rare individuals, possessing a compassion for these desperate women that exceeds their sense of self-preservation.

It isn't a job; it's a calling.

198 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:01:43pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

A lot of these late-term abortions are not to save the mother's life, but because the fetus is seriously medically compromised. I'm not sure one can legally perform a C-section on a pre-term fetus under those conditions. Can you? I feel as though I need to go to law school, or medical school or something.

Frequently it isn't one or the other, but both; the fetus is horribly malformed AND the manner in which it is malformed endangers the woman's life.

199 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:01:46pm

re: #173 Charles

Do the math. I don't know how long Dr. Tiller was in business, but if he was doing abortions for 20 years, he would have had to do more than 8 abortions every single day, 365 days a year, in order to reach 60,000. That number is absurd. It's simple math.



Kris Wilshusen of Planned Parenthood spoke of Tiller training docs who work for him.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:01:47pm

re: #196 Teh Flowah

Well let's see, 350 million is a terrible number because you're not thinking it through.

1. 350 million is probably an overestimate to start with.
2. Not all of them are of proper age. A lot of the "350 million" are too young or too old and retired
3. Not all of them have proper training. Not everyone of the age chose to be a doctor, and even if they went into the medical field, not all of them chose to work in pregnancy terminations. Honestly, what percentage of the working population do you think chose to go into the medical field, much less abortions.
4. You underestimate the threat, perceived or otherwise. Remember that there have been bombings of abortion clinics, threats made, craaaazy protesters. Is that really the type of job do you think most people want?

So once you eliminate anyone too old or too young, non-doctors, non-abortion specialists, and those scared off by the crazies, you're left with a much, much, much smaller number. I don't think the "unsavory nature" of the work scared most people off.

I couldn't do it, if I were to become a doctor. Can you imagine the emotional impact? The endless horror stories? I'd be a wreck.

201 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:02:03pm

If there were suddenly zero late-term abortions in the country, I very much doubt it would end protests at clinics and targeting of doctors who perform abortions.

202 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:03:26pm

re: #201 jaunte

If there were suddenly zero late-term abortions in the country, I very much doubt it would end protests at clinics and targeting of doctors who perform abortions.

Oh, it wouldn't, but because it's so, well, tragic, and the amount of misinformation going around about late-term abortions is so great, it makes a terrific rallying point.

203 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:03:46pm

re: #142 Fenway_Nation

So...endorsing and cheerleading the murder of abortion providers doesn't creep you out as much as the affinity for World of Warcraft or anime?

No, no. Of course not. It's the combination of such normal and age-appropriate hobbies as movies and games with the sinister, hateful stuff. And the self-improvement Bible study, apparently trying sincerely to be a better person from studying scripture. Cognitive dissonance.

204 Teh Flowah  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:03:51pm

re: #192 Sharmuta

Give women a one time tax credit for a child they gave up for adoption? How is it any different than subsidizing an abortion?

Frankly, I wish that unwanted pregnancies didn't happen, but that's a pipe dream. Sorry- I would have no problem with my tax dollars supporting adoption over abortion.

Why is it that if I say that we shouldn't subsidize adoption that it means I approve of subsidizing abortions? Hint: It doesn't. In any case, the two are separate in their degree. Abortions tie off the problem. It doesn't create an unwanted child, it doesn't put a child into the care of the state, which would have to provide for the child if/until it is able to find a suitable person/couple willing to take him in. The simple economics are there.

They should just take a fraction of the money from those subsidies and spend it on condoms and give those out and save us all a fucking headache.

205 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:03:57pm

In this article about his response to the Tiller murder, Dr. Warren Hern of Boulder asserted that he is the last doctor in the world performing late term abortions.
The editor, however, felt obliged to insert this clarification:

Dr. Warren Hern’s claim that he is the last late-term abortion provider is not factually correct, according to reproductive health experts. While there are few physicians who publicly advertise these rare services as Dr. Hern does, third trimester abortions are available, by physician referral, to women experiencing serious, life-threatening medical conditions and in the event of a stillborn or gravely ill baby. - Ed.
206 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:04:10pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

Three. Then Dr. Tiller was murdered. Then two.

Your local PP does third-trimester abortions? The protesters may think so, but I'd want to see more evidence. Link?

According to the National Abortion Federation there are only a few who perform late term abortions.

207 freetoken  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:04:23pm

re: #190 avanti

Yes, LGF breaks the mold of what many people/bloggers expect. No doubt Charles intends for that to be the case.

On more same-ol'-same-ol', this from Iowa's major radio station:

WHO radio hosts compare alleged Tiller assassin to anti-slavery crusader

More Roeder - John Brown equivalence.

208 jzm  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:04:27pm

re: #176 Salamantis

"and the fetus is either already dead or so horribly deformed that it could not suvive long after a c section"

Listen, I'm pro-choice and I'm glad abortion is legal for woman who cant cope with having a baby.

I just don't agree with late term abortions unless it's *REALLY* to save the mothers life.
That is all I'm saying. I've had three kids of my own and I've seen the medical technology that saves life's.

209 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:04:40pm
210 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:05:05pm

re: #204 Teh Flowah

They should just take a fraction of the money from those subsidies and spend it on condoms and give those out and save us all a fucking headache.

Can I put you on record as saying that you support state-subsidized birth control for underage children, without their parents' consent? Speak up into the recorder please.

///

211 itellu3times  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:05:09pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

I couldn't do it, if I were to become a doctor. Can you imagine the emotional impact? The endless horror stories? I'd be a wreck.

Medicine has never been a very attractive field to me, too many sick people, a lot of deaths, and no few of them due to medical errors. Doctors and other med personnel have to focus on the positives, there are plenty of negatives in almost any kind of practice.

212 Teh Flowah  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:06:49pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

I couldn't do it, if I were to become a doctor. Can you imagine the emotional impact? The endless horror stories? I'd be a wreck.

Ok? I know this is probably glaringly obvious to you, but you're not the entire population of the United States. You'd be a wreck, others wouldn't be. Trying to paint it as some 3/350,000,000 to portray them as outcasts or loners or one in a millions is at best foolish and more likely just an attempt at being intellectually dishonest.

213 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:06:52pm

re: #162 jzm

In Judaism, the life of the mother comes first.

My Mum zt"l had pre-eclampsia, and I was a preemie. My Mum used a GP, as this was 1938. The MD who delivered me was a Roman Catholic. My Dad zt"l asked him if he would save my Mum if it came to that, and he told my Dad that he knew about what Judaism taught on the subject, and that he should not worry. I still bless this wonderful man all these years later, and felt only privileged when my parents told me when I was an adult. He did the right thing.

To let a mother die, leaving a widower to bring up the motherless baby, if it is not possible to save both? No.

Even now, 71 years later, this can still happen.

214 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:06:56pm

re: #148 Dianna

Re-read the statement - the whole mix creeps him out.

Yes! That's what I meant. Thanks for helping me clarify.

215 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:07:09pm

re: #202 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, it wouldn't, but because it's so, well, tragic, and the amount of misinformation going around about late-term abortions is so great, it makes a terrific rallying point.

I think the really creepy part of the thinking that says the Tiller murder was a justified killing is that it allows some people to say in future that killing a woman who aborted her fetus would also be justified.

216 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:07:38pm

re: #173 Charles

That website is vile and disgusting, and I don't trust a single thing on it.

Do the math. I don't know how long Dr. Tiller was in business, but if he was doing abortions for 20 years, he would have had to do more than 8 abortions every single day, 365 days a year, in order to reach 60,000. That number is absurd. It's simple math.

Randall Terry is also known for faking tapes, like the faked switchboard call from Bill Clinton he did during one of the elections.

217 WindHorse  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:07:45pm

re: #209 Jokey401

...and, just out of curiosity.... your perspective on the rule of law? Do you care for that at all?

218 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:07:51pm

re: #209 Jokey401

I bet joke -ey is gone.

219 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:08:11pm

People who approve of the murder of Dr. Tiller are going to lose their accounts, period. Full stop. I won't stand for it at my site.

If you need to celebrate murder, go register at Free Republic where you can hang out with like-minded bloodthirsty morons.

220 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:09:14pm

re: #188 Salamantis

Or, it might be that some states, including California don't report these statistics? LA Times


Kansas wasn't even in the top three (reporting) states... oops, there's at least three not counting Kansas.

Surely, no propaganda from the pro-choice faction could ever have caused this discrepancy?
/

221 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:09:17pm

re: #218 unrealizedviewpoint

I bet joke -ey is gone.

Coming soon to a stalker blog near you!

Complete with a sob story and a rant about debate and free speech.

222 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:09:22pm

re: #215 jaunte

I think the really creepy part of the thinking that says the Tiller murder was a justified killing is that it allows some people to say in future that killing a woman who aborted her fetus would also be justified.

Murder is never justified.

223 MrsEener  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:09:29pm
If he performed late-term abortions that were "not medically necessary," he somehow tricked another doctor into signing off on them, and somehow escaped the notice of the state of Kansas in doing so -- because that would be a serious crime. Please back up that accusation with something.If he performed late-term abortions that were "not medically necessary," he somehow tricked another doctor into signing off on them, and somehow escaped the notice of the state of Kansas in doing so -- because that would be a serious crime. Please back up that accusation with something.

I just had to come out of my self-imposed exile for this one. Go ahead and call me a troll, but I'll back up this accusation by directing people to the link you yourself offered above:

Testimonials from Dr. Tiller's patients.

The term "medically necessary" is pretty vague. I read all the stories. Not one of these stories mentions anything about the mother's physical health being in any danger whatsoever. Some of the babies even had a chance of surviving many years.

Before you attack me, let me be clear:

They were all heart wrenching stories, and I would not presume to judge the parents for their decision.

Dr. Tiller's murder was an evil, senseless act of violence.

I consider the "pro-life" movement, as a whole, to be irresponsible and lacking in compassion and perspective and I have never and would never have anything to do with them.

OK, now you can attack me. I'm going to bed anyway.

224 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:10:03pm

re: #222 Floral Giraffe

True, and yet some people are doing that very thing.

225 kingkenrod  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:10:09pm

Here is video of a woman describing the abortion process at Tiller's clinic. Based on her description (I have no idea if her story is accurate), it is probably possible the clinic could have performed 60,000 abortions. Maybe the 60,000 number comes from court records?

Youtube Video
226 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:10:16pm

re: #212 Teh Flowah

Ok? I know this is probably glaringly obvious to you, but you're not the entire population of the United States. You'd be a wreck, others wouldn't be. Trying to paint it as some 3/350,000,000 to portray them as outcasts or loners or one in a millions is at best foolish and more likely just an attempt at being intellectually dishonest.

OK, cold hard facts. I suspect many doctors wouldn't want to go into this field, and I am damn sure that the issue of people trying to shoot your ass--Tiller had been shot once before--tends to make it unattractive.

In addition, there are legal issues.

Which is why women were driving from Maryland to Wichita to have late-term abortions.

I'm sorry my comment about how this is a medical speciality I couldn't handle aided and abetted intellectual dishonesty.

227 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:10:33pm

Interesting angle from an item quoted in this story, Radical antiabortion forces may rebuild movement around May 31 day of infamy

Anniversaries are important to those engaged in long-term revolutionary struggles including those on the American far right.

Tim McVeigh, for example, blew up the Oklahoma City federal building in 1995 on the anniversary of the federal assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

It may be no coincidence that Tiller’s assassination occurred on the sixth anniversary of the capture of Eric Rudolph who was convicted of pipe bombings the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, a gay bar, and two abortion clinics.

228 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:11:33pm

re: #204 Teh Flowah

Why is it that if I say that we shouldn't subsidize adoption that it means I approve of subsidizing abortions? Hint: It doesn't. In any case, the two are separate in their degree. Abortions tie off the problem. It doesn't create an unwanted child, it doesn't put a child into the care of the state, which would have to provide for the child if/until it is able to find a suitable person/couple willing to take him in. The simple economics are there.

They should just take a fraction of the money from those subsidies and spend it on condoms and give those out and save us all a fucking headache.

Right- because access to condoms is the problem.

The real solution is to quit funding a welfare state and for people to take responsibility for their actions. The war on poverty subsidized illegitimacy. That ending is not going to happen for awhile, if ever.

And with waiting lists for adoptions taking years, I doubt there would suddenly be too many babies to satiate the the demand to think a tax credit would create a need for babies being wards of the states.

229 Teh Flowah  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:12:18pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I put you on record as saying that you support state-subsidized birth control for underage children, without their parents' consent? Speak up into the recorder please.

///


I mean, first of all we'd have to disregard the fact that I said nothing of the sort. I said to replace abortion/adoption subsidies with condoms.

But yeah too bad the religious right would eat me up right? It was said that wanting just to put an end to unwanted pregnancies is a pipe dream. It is, as much as it is a pipe dream to expect kids to stop having sex. They're going to have sex, and if they don't have access to birth control then a bunch of kids who can't even take care of themselves are going to have kids of their own. Sounds like a recipe for success amirite?

But nah, you can't do the intelligent and practical thing anymore. Thanks religious nutballs and media centers that soundbite everything. I want to give your 13 year olds condoms so they'll just have sex all the time! Get it on record!

230 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:12:19pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

A lot of these late-term abortions are not to save the mother's life, but because the fetus is seriously medically compromised. I'm not sure one can legally perform a C-section on a pre-term fetus under those conditions. Can you? I feel as though I need to go to law school, or medical school or something.

With ultrasound they can see abnormalities very early on, and in some cases like in spinal bifida, they can perform intra-uterine surgery on the fetus's spine.

231 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:13:14pm

O'Reilly & NOW Attorney On Tiller's Murder

I really despise Bill O'Reilly.

232 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:13:28pm

re: #217 WindHorse

The pathetic joke has left the building!

233 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:13:43pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

One of the problems with the waiting lists taking years is that most people want a perfectly healthy white infant. Ask for mixed race, or be able to handle imperfect health, and you go to the head of the line.

234 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:13:50pm

re: #207 freetoken

Yes, that John Brown comparison was in several articles on Christian Blogs the day after, and it's making the rounds. Let's forget for a moment that John Brown was an over idealized terrorist, most only remember the Ferry. But he also performed home invasions and murdered innocents by hacking them and their sons up with claymores in front of their wives. Afterwards he would burn the house down.

235 WindHorse  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:14:16pm

re: #232 NY Nana

Good riddance....

236 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:14:24pm

re: #220 slokat

Or, it might be that some states, including California don't report these statistics? LA Times

Kansas wasn't even in the top three (reporting) states... oops, there's at least three not counting Kansas.

Surely, no propaganda from the pro-choice faction could ever have caused this discrepancy?
/

The third trimester only begins at the end of the 26th week, and only abortions performed in the third trimester are classified as late term abortions. Those performed in the second trimester, between the 13th and the 26th week, are clasified as mid-term abortions. Far fewer than 1.3 % of abortions are performed after the 26th week; in fact, only 1000 per year.

Get your facts straight before you begin accusing others of fudging theirs.

237 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:14:27pm

A friend here in new jersey had to return to LA to attend a victim's impact hearing in the sentencing of one of the murderers of her pregnant niece. She was 8 months pregnant with twins and the 3 murderers were charged and convicted of a triple homicide.

238 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:15:56pm

re: #230 DistantThunder

With ultrasound they can see abnormalities very early on, and in some cases like in spinal bifida, they can perform intra-uterine surgery on the fetus's spine.

It's truly amazing what can be done these days. Science fiction come to life, and we're still looking around for our flying cars.

239 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:15:58pm

re: #237 DistantThunder

A friend here in new jersey had to return to LA to attend a victim's impact hearing in the sentencing of one of the murderers of her pregnant niece. She was 8 months pregnant with twins and the 3 murderers were charged and convicted of a triple homicide.

on all three counts of murder.

240 pegcity  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:16:33pm

And once again the jews get stuck in the middle, oy

241 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:17:13pm

Before I finally sign off I want to share a thought.
Abortion is the subject that makes all invested to somehow lose, if only a little, their sense of balance. It's such a heated subject, emotions run so high on both sides -all seeking to win out this little part of the debate, and/or to minimize their opponent. Why we can't achieve solutions is not that we're partisan publicans against demoncrats that certain, based upon debate here. We're folks who feel strongly about life, life of a child, or the life of the mom carrying the life. Neither should have to give up rights to life or freedom over body. We really need find some middle. Nobody's working the middle.
/crying

242 DistantThunder  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:18:14pm

Speaking of offspring, my 84 year old professor died this week. I added up his children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren - and he had 84.

243 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:19:16pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

The real solution is to quit funding a welfare state and for people to take responsibility for their actions. The war on poverty subsidized illegitimacy.
I'd ding you up more if I could.

Back in the dark ages day when I grew up people did not look to the state for help.

there was family, church, friends, LOCAL charitable organizations...

I could go on. Read de Toquville's comments on American exceptionalism (gasp, the horror) and how much of it was based on voluntary associations to address the problems of the place and time.

Charity should not, indeed cannot, be instantiated at the point of gun (federal law).

Violating the Iron Fist rule...

244 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:19:24pm

re: #233 jaunte

One of the problems with the waiting lists taking years is that most people want a perfectly healthy white infant. Ask for mixed race, or be able to handle imperfect health, and you go to the head of the line.

But there are a lot of couples that go overseas as well to avoid the lists. They don't care about race.

Anyways- I still don't see the problem with offering an incentive to make another choice in this subject. We really have no idea how many women would be more open to adoption with something like a one time tax credit. I still doubt it would make much of a dent in the waiting lists.

I really- think a lot of it comes down to people respecting themselves more.

245 BignJames  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:21:05pm

re: #238 SanFranciscoZionist

It's truly amazing what can be done these days. Science fiction come to life, and we're still looking around for our flying cars.

We're livin' in the future
Tell you how I know
Read it in the paper
Fifteen years ago
We're all driving rocketships
And talking with our minds
Wearing tourguoise jewelry
And standin' in soup lines

246 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:21:33pm

re: #235 WindHorse

Good riddance....

of a bad thing.

Where do they come from?!?!?!?!

247 jaunte  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:21:40pm

Goodnight all. Work comes early tomorrow.

Here's an interesting link:

Every day we are given the opportunity to find beauty in the face of other human beings. I come from a religious tradition that sometimes left its members unable to encounter other people without seeing them as missionary targets. We failed in discernment. Of course, those who harbour anti-religious sentiment are also often incapable of having a conversation with believers in which they treat their opinions with respect. They fail in discernment too. Yet if human beings really are made in the image of God, then perhaps we might find it in ourselves also to learn that every encounter between you and me, or me and anyone, or you and anyone should be an opportunity for God, or whatever you want to name the ground of all being, to speak to both of us.[Link: blog.sojo.net...]

248 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:21:46pm

re: #236 Salamantis

My facts are straight, you are hanging your argument on tracking stats that don't give the details that are being thrown around.

If New York has most from a 21 weeks on, and next Georgia & Jersey with Kansas not mentioned... Still puts three states at higher rates.

So, more than three places, and California doesn't report abortion stats at all.

249 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:24:43pm

re: #245 BignJames

Well how about this?

Youtube Video
250 pat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:24:54pm

Tiller was a despicable human being , that did the work of a butcher. To him the destruction of life was a way to riches. No normal person condones the the act of the sick, dangerous, lunatic that killed him. But Tiller himself is a POS. A creep that inhabits the minds of the mentally ill and depraved. Tiller was a Doctor in the sense that Jack The Ripper was a surgeon.

251 RememberSekhmet?  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:25:01pm

re: #247 jaunte

Be glad you have a job. I got laid off Friday, and have been searching frantically since. First time unemployed since my oldest was a baby

252 freetoken  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:25:19pm

re: #145 Dianna

Astrology and Bible study are theologically incompatible.

Why is that?

253 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:25:32pm

re: #247 jaunte

Sweet dreams!

254 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:26:32pm

re: #241 unrealizedviewpoint

Before I finally sign off I want to share a thought.
Abortion is the subject that makes all invested to somehow lose, if only a little, their sense of balance. It's such a heated subject, emotions run so high on both sides -all seeking to win out this little part of the debate, and/or to minimize their opponent. Why we can't achieve solutions is not that we're partisan publicans against demoncrats that certain, based upon debate here. We're folks who feel strongly about life, life of a child, or the life of the mom carrying the life. Neither should have to give up rights to life or freedom over body. We really need find some middle. Nobody's working the middle.
/crying

I've already proposed a moderate, sensible centrist position:

Abortion permitted during the first trimester.

Abortion permitted in cases of rape or incest until fetal viability (mid- second trimester). I offer the additional time here because a minor who has been raped either by a member of the family or by someone else often has to spend the time to go to court to get permission for an abortion against her parents' will, and even then they can refuse to pay for it, and getting funds for the procedure could take some additional time. But at the point of fetal viability, we are talking about a second life that can survive independently of the mother.

Abortion permitted in the third trimester only in cases where the mother's life is in grave danger, or she is in grave danger of serious and lasting injury (brain damage, paralysis, etc.), and/or if the fetus is either already dead or else so horribly deformed that there is no chance whatsoever that it will long survive childbirth.

255 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:26:56pm

re: #251 RememberSekhmet?

Damn. Good luck. I hope you find one with far less searching than you expected.

256 BignJames  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:27:26pm

re: #249 NY Nana


Now that's a fairy tale.

257 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:28:02pm

Back in 1948, a 17 year old west Texas girl became pregnant by a young airman from a nearby base. The airman was willing to marry her but her parents wanted to avoid even that scandal. In spite of their religious beliefs, they used certain political connections to contact a physician who would perform illegal (but apparently safe) abortions for select clientele. The parents urged the girl to have the abortion. She refused and married the airman. She gave birth to a healthy baby boy the following June.
I was that baby boy.

258 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:28:09pm

We've had two referrals today from this site (Google cache link):

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

...going to our post about the white supremacists infiltrating tea parties.

259 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:28:10pm

Both men and women-- just need to respect themselves more.....

260 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:28:24pm

re: #254 Salamantis

I could not have said it as well as you did.

261 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:28:46pm

re: #258 Charles

We've had two referrals today from this site (Google cache link):

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

...going to our post about the white supremacists infiltrating tea parties.

There's that "meaningless symbol" again.

262 earthwirm  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:29:20pm

I only catch snippets of this news because I work heavily and have little time off. I heard the doc did late-term abortions.

I wonder how late-term an abortion can be? I mean, what about 2 days after the fetus is born? A baby that crosses that magical threshold and is 2 days old, could very well still live in the womb. Heck, up to two weeks late babies can stay. And the next 4 weeks? Well, nature gives birth to Humans early because of our abnormally large brains. So could 6 weeks out be considered the ultimate end point in a fetus life? 44-46 weeks. Is that late enough?

... Just wondering ...

263 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:29:22pm

re: #256 BignJames

Now that's a fairy tale.

But I really ♥ it!

264 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:29:43pm

re: #251 RememberSekhmet?

Be glad you have a job. I got laid off Friday, and have been searching frantically since. First time unemployed since my oldest was a baby

Best wishes on your search. I've been damn lucky in that I was laid off once in '86 and the few other changes have been voluntary.

I remember and detested the 6 weeks between jobs then.

265 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:30:02pm

re: #244 Sharmuta

But there are a lot of couples that go overseas as well to avoid the lists. They don't care about race.

Anyways- I still don't see the problem with offering an incentive to make another choice in this subject. We really have no idea how many women would be more open to adoption with something like a one time tax credit. I still doubt it would make much of a dent in the waiting lists.

I really- think a lot of it comes down to people respecting themselves more.

I think it also comes down to making adoption more socially acceptable. I know a lot of women of my mother's generation who gave up children for adoption. They were required to leave school, vanish from the public sight, and then their children were taken away without warning or permission, and they never found out where they'd gone. That was hell.

Women of my generation (I'm 35) didn't have this experience. Abortion was legal. Keeping a baby and giving it for adoption was somewhat eccentric, and almost as socially dicey as it had been earlier. NO ONE in high school who got pregnant gave birth. No one. A friend who went to a very elite private school told me about a friend of hers who was kicked out of school because she was pregnant. They told her to terminate or get lost. So she went to public school and had the baby, which apparently surprised the heck out of these administrators.

I think open adoptions are the way to go, and I think that we need to treat moms who are going to give their children to adoptive parents the same way we treat surrogate moms, and honor what they're doing. A friend of the family had a baby through a surrogate some time ago, and the two families interacted throughout the pregnancy and were very open and comfortable with what they were doing. If that were an option available to a pregnant woman--that she get support from her baby's future parents--I think that would help. Hell, if it were socially acceptable for a pregnant woman to simply say "I'm going to place this child for adoption," and have that be respected as a good and sane choice, rather than being pestered with questions about why she didn't keep it, and what might happen to it.

I'm babbling. It's late. YOu get the idea.

266 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:30:14pm

re: #258 Charles

Shhhhh! Seekrit razism! Too much talky talky from yu!

267 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:30:22pm

re: #248 slokat

My facts are straight, you are hanging your argument on tracking stats that don't give the details that are being thrown around.

If New York has most from a 21 weeks on, and next Georgia & Jersey with Kansas not mentioned... Still puts three states at higher rates.

So, more than three places, and California doesn't report abortion stats at all.

Wrong. 26+ week abortion clients travel to Kansas to see Dr. Tiller, to Boulder Colorado to see Dr. Reems, or to a third doctor in the East. And there are only a thousand of them per year.

Not the numbers your article is reporting - not even close. Because 15000+ of those 16000 abortions are mid-term abortions occcurring between the 21st and the 26th week. And after that, the numbers drop drastically.

268 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:30:22pm

re: #261 Sharmuta

There's that "meaningless symbol" again.

Apparently they're discussing LGF in the forum. I couldn't read the posts - it requires registration.

269 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:30:45pm

re: #38 WindHorse

before after abortion was made legal illegal, there were countless cases of women dying from trying to infect themselves to bring on abortion of the fetus.....

doctors are good.

FTFY
FWIW

270 Cheechako  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:30:50pm

re: #166 unrealizedviewpoint

re: #167 DistantThunder

I've met many families over my lifetime who have adopted children and i realize many families consider adoption a private matter.

What I was trying to point out was that I would value the opinion of the vocal leaders of the anti-abortion movement more if they had set an example by adopting children themselves.

Can anyone point out an anti-abortionist leader/spokes person, a radio/TV anti-abortion personality, or MSM anti-abortion columnist who has set an an example by adopting one or more children?

271 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:31:09pm

re: #251 RememberSekhmet?

Good luck...I've been in the same boat since mid-March and have been going from temp job to temp job.

272 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:31:22pm

According to CDC - in Kansas year 2005 there were only 450 abortions after week 21

31 four states + DC reported abortions performed after 21 weeks
10 states don't report abortion stats to CDC

273 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:32:47pm

re: #250 pat

Tiller was a despicable human being , that did the work of a butcher. To him the destruction of life was a way to riches. No normal person condones the the act of the sick, dangerous, lunatic that killed him. But Tiller himself is a POS. A creep that inhabits the minds of the mentally ill and depraved. Tiller was a Doctor in the sense that Jack The Ripper was a surgeon.

The man saved lives that few others would save, ultimately at the cost of his own.

You would be exceedingly lucky to possess even half of his compassion.

274 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:33:03pm

re: #267 Salamantis

Link to your stats?

275 freetoken  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:33:29pm

re: #268 Charles

And I refuse to register to read them.

276 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:33:45pm

re: #225 kingkenrod

Here is video of a woman describing the abortion process at Tiller's clinic. Based on her description (I have no idea if her story is accurate), it is probably possible the clinic could have performed 60,000 abortions. Maybe the 60,000 number comes from court records?


[Video]

Does anyone else notice how whacked out the woman story is compared to the others ? Drops the fetus in a toilet, no offers of a viewing, birthing blanket and the rest the others talk about.

277 Teh Flowah  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:34:23pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Right- because access to condoms is the problem.

The real solution is to quit funding a welfare state and for people to take responsibility for their actions. The war on poverty subsidized illegitimacy. That ending is not going to happen for awhile, if ever.

And with waiting lists for adoptions taking years, I doubt there would suddenly be too many babies to satiate the the demand to think a tax credit would create a need for babies being wards of the states.

Access is one issue, education is another. Sex ed is horribly mediocre thanks to years of the religious right's incessant bitching on the subject. The kind of bitching that turns Obama's "tell kindergartners about the no no spots and telling an adult if someone touches them there" into "HE WANTS TO TEACH YOUR KIDS ABOUT SEXXXXXXX". Is it any wonder that teenagers these days have the stupidest ideas about pregnancy? "You only get pregnant if you do it in this position" Any kid who's gone through high school in the last decade can tell you some real dingers that other teenagers will hear, believe, and repeat to others.

You say the solution is the stop funding the welfare state and yet you propose a tax credit for adoption? Isn't that like, the exact opposite? You cite reality as a reason for being unable to do away with it completely, but you're forgetting which one requires more money from the state. Abortion? Or the ever efficient government beauracracy that must be maintained to place tens of thousands of kids with new parents. And not just any parent, but suitable ones. And while they're looking, someone has to take care of those kids right? Uncle Sam!

278 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:34:30pm

re: #265 SanFranciscoZionist

I think it also comes down to making adoption more socially acceptable. I know a lot of women of my mother's generation who gave up children for adoption. They were required to leave school, vanish from the public sight, and then their children were taken away without warning or permission, and they never found out where they'd gone. That was hell.

Women of my generation (I'm 35) didn't have this experience. Abortion was legal. Keeping a baby and giving it for adoption was somewhat eccentric, and almost as socially dicey as it had been earlier. NO ONE in high school who got pregnant gave birth. No one. A friend who went to a very elite private school told me about a friend of hers who was kicked out of school because she was pregnant. They told her to terminate or get lost. So she went to public school and had the baby, which apparently surprised the heck out of these administrators.

I think open adoptions are the way to go, and I think that we need to treat moms who are going to give their children to adoptive parents the same way we treat surrogate moms, and honor what they're doing. A friend of the family had a baby through a surrogate some time ago, and the two families interacted throughout the pregnancy and were very open and comfortable with what they were doing. If that were an option available to a pregnant woman--that she get support from her baby's future parents--I think that would help. Hell, if it were socially acceptable for a pregnant woman to simply say "I'm going to place this child for adoption," and have that be respected as a good and sane choice, rather than being pestered with questions about why she didn't keep it, and what might happen to it.

I'm babbling. It's late. YOu get the idea.

I absolutely do get you. I know a number of women who opted for open adoptions, and they get updates on their children. It seems to work well for all of these ladies. They know their child is well cared for and they're not locked out of the family. Different rules for all of these ladies, but they all know how things are going, and that they made a beautiful choice.

279 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:34:51pm

re: #272 slokat

According to CDC - in Kansas year 2005 there were only 450 abortions after week 21

31 states + DC reported abortions performed after 21 weeks
10 states don't report abortion stats to CDC

pimf, correcting a weird typo

280 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:34:56pm

re: #262 earthwirm

I only catch snippets of this news because I work heavily and have little time off. I heard the doc did late-term abortions.

I wonder how late-term an abortion can be? I mean, what about 2 days after the fetus is born? A baby that crosses that magical threshold and is 2 days old, could very well still live in the womb. Heck, up to two weeks late babies can stay. And the next 4 weeks? Well, nature gives birth to Humans early because of our abnormally large brains. So could 6 weeks out be considered the ultimate end point in a fetus life? 44-46 weeks. Is that late enough?

... Just wondering ...

Not even a good try, troll.

281 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:34:57pm

re: #250 pat

And you come to those lovely judgments how, exactly? Did you know Dr. Tiller? Did you know any of his patients? Did you know anyone who knew him?

Or is it solely based on propaganda you've been fed by Bill O'Reilly and anti-abortion websites, as I suspect?

Because I've been reading testimonials from women who WERE his patients, and from people who did know him, and they don't seem to agree with you that he was just like Jack the Ripper.

282 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:35:03pm

re: #275 freetoken

And I refuse to register to read them.

No kidding. It's too bad we don't have a law enforcement lizard who would do it on his work computer though.

283 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:36:06pm

re: #261 Sharmuta

There's that "meaningless symbol" again.

Lakadaimona and an Odin's Cross. Temporal chaos IMAO...

284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:36:32pm

I posted this morning that ...I had dinner last night with 15 people. A large percentage were Southern Baptists (including a Southern Baptist minister) to a (wo)man the group was horrified by the murder.

285 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:37:09pm

re: #277 Teh Flowah

Yeah- let's just kill the children instead.

Excuse me. That's the most cold hearted thing I've read in the last few days, and I need to step away.

286 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:37:28pm

re: #272 slokat

According to CDC - in Kansas year 2005 there were only 450 abortions after week 21

31 four states + DC reported abortions performed after 21 weeks
10 states don't report abortion stats to CDC

So the 60K figure is absolute bullshit lie put out by Randall Terry's rabid loons.

Time for me to get some sleeps:

Youtube Video
287 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:37:28pm

re: #272 slokat

According to CDC - in Kansas year 2005 there were only 450 abortions after week 21

31 four states + DC reported abortions performed after 21 weeks
10 states don't report abortion stats to CDC

And last year Dr. Tiller only performed 323 late term (after 26 weeks) abortions.

288 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:38:52pm

re: #286 Thanos

So the 60K figure is absolute bullshit lie put out by Randall Terry's rabid loons.

Exactly. It's an impossible number, and it was repeated over and over by Bill O'Reilly.

289 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:38:59pm

Nite all, need to get some sleep.

290 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:39:07pm

re: #287 Salamantis

And last year Dr. Tiller only performed 323 late term (after 26 weeks) abortions.

link to stats?

291 freetoken  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:39:26pm

BTW, xenophobia/paranoia is starting to infect PJM comments these days.

Just check out the America the dutiful entry comments:

51. noreen:
He has always obviously to me, been a muslim.Iknew it before he was elected. There are those among us who have refused to see this reality. It remains to be seen why 50% of the population lacks the ability to see through this diabolical charlatan. The liar, the narcissist the thief. The dangers inherent in this fool running our country are to scary to even contemplate. My sanity dictates that I don’t watch or read “real” news everyday. A few days a week is all I can take. How much longer does he have to be in charge? Will we survive the great killer of freedom and liberty.

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:36 pm


-

62. G. Clarke:
Needless to say the heritage of the US of A is a mixture of Europeans fleeing Europe for the most part and Africans brought here involutarily intermixed with the indiginous people who were already here. Spanish and French from North and South also mixed in, with their European and Native heritages as well. The Natives were not Christian, except by conversion, but now most of those with European or African blood still are, or at least can trace their roots to that Faith. Where in this long Heritage were the Muslims, who are only a recent addition to the mix? Our Heritage is being intentionally undermined. I keep saying that Obama is not that stupid. It is all part of some completely transparent plot but everyone is so confused by the intentional confusion, abetted by our press, that we know not what to do except await the next election. Today we learned this election will be run without any identification needed or required or allowed since now identification at the polls is a possible sign of racism. This way Obama can just use his private airforce to import all the Muslims he needs to keep getting elected forever. Its called positive affirmation. Keep repeating something you want as often as necessary until it becomes true.

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:18 pm [emp added]


-

65. Robohobo:
Self-hating Boomer @ 40: “Now tell me again about how brilliant this Columbia/Harvard scholar and distinguished professor is, and how he got into said institutions on merit, and didn’t play race to his advantage. …Come on. Testify.”

Shoot I’d be glad to BUT none of his birth, school or other records have ever been made public. You know, like every other candidate has done? [...]

And so on. Why register at FreeRepublic when one can post at PJM?

292 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:39:44pm

re: #274 slokat

Link to your stats?

I read them by clicking onto links in past Dr. Tiller threads. You can find them by clicking on the show link function in the same threads.

293 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:41:02pm

re: #292 Salamantis

Weak, but typical

294 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:41:56pm

re: #277 Teh Flowah

I call bullshit on most all of that.

My spawn or barely out of those tender teen years and have no such invalid ideas regarding sex and the possible outcomes.

They simply don't care enough to stop when those teenage hormones override the brain.

Males have an excuse: G_d gave us a brain and a penis. Unfortunately he only gave us enough blood to drive one at a time.

Not making light of a serious problem...

295 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:43:58pm

Moronic convergence time: Racists meet creationists.

WEST ROXBURY - Members of the John Birch Society believe in protecting the U.S. Constitution from what they consider to be wavering while maintaining its integrity.

“Less government, more responsibility, and with God’s help, a better world” is the motto of the society that hosted author James Perloff at the West Roxbury Branch Library on Saturday afternoon.

The gathering was in response to a recent celebration of Charles Darwin and his theory of evolution in order to see the opposite side of the spectrum, which is creationism — a banned teaching in public school systems nationwide.

Perloff, who lives in Burlington, was brought in to elaborate on his findings against Darwin’s theory of evolution. He has written two books on the subject: “Tornado in a Junkyard” and “The Case against Darwin.”

The event was held in front of a small gathering and was kicked off with a prayer along with the Pledge of Allegiance led by Harold Shurtleff of West Roxbury, regional field director for the John Birch Society.

Perloff delivered his three-part PowerPoint rebuttal of Darwin’s theory of evolution in order to “underscore what people don’t know” and explain how many people have been persuaded to believe Darwin’s theory as fact while casting off creationism totally.

Perloff tried to draw parallels throughout history, attempting to connect individuals such as Andrew Carnegie, Karl Marx, Josef Stalin and Adolph Hitler with the teachings and rationales of Charles Darwin. He also told of his own life’s inner conflict, saying he was briefly turned into an atheist at a young age due to Darwin’s theory.

Perloff went on to say, “Survival of the fittest does not explain arrival of the fittest,” and that, “[the theory of] evolution is just speculation on the past and should not been seen as scientific fact.”

In the crowd was Birch Society member John Coveney of Weymouth, who said, “It was a great presentation. I’ve read his books and find [Perloff] informative.”

Coveney, talking about teaching creationism versus the theory of evolution in public schools, said, “Teach both evolution and creationism. Let them make up their own minds. It’s a free country, after all.”

296 pink freud  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:43:59pm

Apparently Tiller had his own PAC. It was named ProKanDo. The website has been shut down, but a google search returns quite a bit of info.

/just sharing info that came up in my reading ...

297 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:44:02pm

re: #288 Charles

The anti-Tiller propaganda was really thick here in the midwest, almost like a fog if you will. I bought into some of it myself until I did some research. It was the crudest appeal to emotionalism I have ever seen.

298 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:44:33pm

re: #293 slokat

Weak, but typical

[Link: kansasliberty.com...]

excerpt:

Of the 644 abortions performed on girls under 18, more than half were from out-of-state. The report also said 323 late-term abortions were performed in 2008, an approximate 10 percent increase from 2007. Only 27 were performed on Kansas women and girls. The other 296 were performed on out-of-state residents.

299 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:45:26pm

re: #65 avanti

Dark, if all you know about Tiller you learned from O'Reilly, that's a perfect example of the effect he had on viewers.
As I said in another post, if I accepted O'Reilly's claim that Tiller aborted 60,000 healthy babies at $5000 each, I'd be outraged as you.

That would put his total, pre-tax income for this at $300,000,000. I find those numbers impossible to believe.

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:46:29pm

re: #294 Van Helsing


Males have an excuse: G_d gave us a brain and a penis. Unfortunately he only gave us enough blood to drive one at a time.

My husband and I have a running argument about whether being a boy or a girl young teenager is more awful. He wins, by pointing out that when a girl becomes inappropriately aroused when a secret crush walks by, it's not visible through her clothes. (He tries to get points for voice breaking, but I point out that sprouting body hair for boys is something to brag about, while for girls it's the beginning of a long, laborious lifetime work.

301 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:48:03pm

re: #277 Teh Flowah

re: #299 Slumbering Behemoth

That would put his total, pre-tax income for this at $300,000,000. I find those numbers impossible to believe.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
I'm skeptical, as well. I don't see enough detail in any of the easy to find sources that seem to tell the complete story.

302 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:49:02pm

re: #67 DistantThunder

It's interesting that no one has televised an abortion, when so many people feel that abortion is healthy, empowering, and a threatened right. We see every other type of surgery performed on TV including heart transplants and controversial sex change operations. I guess abortion is the last frontier for TV.

Dude! What channels are you watching? I've never seen anything like that on TV. You must be paying for a monthly subscription or something. Seriously?

303 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:49:32pm

Dr. Tiller was probably THE most scrutinized doctor in the country.

304 BignJames  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:50:48pm

re: #300 SanFranciscoZionist


Sprouting body hair for boys is something to brag about, while for girls it's the beginning of a long, laborious lifetime work.


Know many European women?

305 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:52:07pm

Old guys jammin.

Yes - Heart of the Sunrise.

306 neocon hippie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:52:07pm

There's so much propaganda that's full of exaggerations or even outright lies coming at us from all directions.

Although I don't hold him in any way responsible for the murder of Tiller, it pisses me off that O'Reilly has stooped to the level he has. I had no idea as I don't watch his show.

307 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:52:50pm

re: #71 Salamantis

I get your point, but two things:

1) I wouldn't want to see either on the tube
2) Please give a NSFW warning of some kind when linking images like that in the future

308 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:53:50pm

re: #304 BignJames

Sprouting body hair for boys is something to brag about, while for girls it's the beginning of a long, laborious lifetime work.


Know many European women?

Well, there's that option too. But I am a lady of Semitic descent and very dark hair, raised and living in the United States.

I did stop shaving altogether for some years in college, and off and on after, but then I met the husband, and he is, well, very American in his tastes. I took up the razor again, because I love him.

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:54:58pm

re: #306 neocon hippie

There's so much propaganda that's full of exaggerations or even outright lies coming at us from all directions.

Although I don't hold him in any way responsible for the murder of Tiller, it pisses me off that O'Reilly has stooped to the level he has. I had no idea as I don't watch his show.

Oh, I finally saw Glenn Beck in action! It was an accident, I was flipping channels, but there he was.

That poor man is gonna have a heart attack unless something is done about the whole world.

310 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:02pm

re: #300 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband and I have a running argument about whether being a boy or a girl young teenager is more awful. He wins, by pointing out that when a girl becomes inappropriately aroused when a secret crush walks by, it's not visible through her clothes. (He tries to get points for voice breaking, but I point out that sprouting body hair for boys is something to brag about, while for girls it's the beginning of a long, laborious lifetime work.

I have 2 male and 1 female that are (thankfully) pretty much past adolescence. The female is the middle child. I ended up being a single parent for about a decade in their formative years and I still found the daughter to be most difficult to deal with.

I recognize that this is probably because of the difference in the sexes. It was much easier to tell the male children that if they ever got some female pregnant that I would hold them accountable by MY standards - if their passing fancy decided to keep the child they would DAMN WELL be responsible for support.

311 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:43pm

re: #288 Charles

RE: the 60K #

Exactly. It's an impossible number, and it was repeated over and over by Bill O'Reilly.

The location of that audio link may be questionable, but after listening to Dr. Tiller on it, then comparing to other interviews of Tiller, I'd say it's him. Listen to this:

MP3 Audio

Then compare to this:

Youtube Video

Certainly sounds like him claiming 60K.

312 Chekote  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:56:47pm
It was the crudest appeal to emotionalism I have ever seen.

That describes most of the pro-life propaganda I have seen. Recently, C-SPAN broadcasted a debate between Doug Kmiec and Robert George. George endlessly referred to crushed bones, blood being spilled even when he was talking about stem cell research. Pure emotionalism. Stem cell research involves excess embryos that are a couple of days old and consist of a few cells. Yet Gold insisted on saying "crushed bones".

313 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:09pm

re: #311 unrealizedviewpoint

RE: the 60K #


The location of that audio link may be questionable, but after listening to Dr. Tiller on it, then comparing to other interviews of Tiller, I'd say it's him. Listen to this:

[Link: www.dr-tiller.com...]

Then compare to this:

Youtube Video

Certainly sounds like him claiming 60K.

OF COURSE it sounds like Dr. Tiller; if they were choosing someone to fake his voice, they wouldn't choose Darth Vader or Daffy Duck.

314 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:22pm

re: #310 Van Helsing

I have 2 male and 1 female that are (thankfully) pretty much past adolescence. The female is the middle child. I ended up being a single parent for about a decade in their formative years and I still found the daughter to be most difficult to deal with.

I recognize that this is probably because of the difference in the sexes. It was much easier to tell the male children that if they ever got some female pregnant that I would hold them accountable by MY standards - if their passing fancy decided to keep the child they would DAMN WELL be responsible for support.

I think that's an extremely important thing for young men to be told. Good on ya.

315 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:58:15pm

re: #311 unrealizedviewpoint

He's dead, let it go already.

316 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:58:39pm

re: #313 Salamantis

OF COURSE it sounds like Dr. Tiller; if they were choosing someone to fake his voice, they wouldn't choose Darth Vader or Daffy Duck.

I concede that point. I'm tired, not thinking. need sleep. g-nite.

317 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:59:29pm

re: #315 MrPaulRevere

He's dead, let it go already.

Why should I let it go when the rest of the damn room is discussing it? WTF is w/you?

318 RememberSekhmet?  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:02pm

Must...crash....weet...dreams....zzzzzzzzzz

319 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:01:01pm

Lizards,

I am very proud of all of us, as this topic could really become ugly, and I can only imagine how down and dirty it is on a lot of blogs...

This sad subject, of the murder of an MD by a zealot (and I am being kind), inside a Church, could have developed into a slugging match, as a lot of us have very differing beliefs.

Thanks for the discourse. I am going to save this thread.

And Charles, thank you so much for the support you have given to the late Dr. Tiller. I can only imagine what his family is going through. The trauma of losing a family member, a friend, an acquaintance is devastating. And for his widow to have seen it happen right before her eyes?

G'nite, all! Sweet dreams. You all get extra cookies and milk before bedtime! ;)

320 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:01:44pm

re: #304 BignJames

Sprouting body hair for boys is something to brag about, while for girls it's the beginning of a long, laborious lifetime work.

Know many European women?

This can make quite an impression on American country boys who have never encountered it before. During a TDY to German in the early 70s, some of my newly-arrived fellow soldiers and I got enough time off to make our way to a semi-nude beach on the Baltic coast. The display we had anticipated was there, all right, but it was both literally and figuratively over-shadowed. One of my colleagues declared that it was more like Planet of the Apes. than Mondo Topless.
Lacking in nuance I guess.

321 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:02:39pm

re: #317 unrealizedviewpoint

The demonization of Dr. Tiller got him killed, yet you persist...

322 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:03:03pm

re: #318 RememberSekhmet?

Good luck w/the job hunting!

323 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:03:10pm

Now, this is enlightening. The newest post on Gingi Edmonds' "other" blog, in which she professes a crush on...Glenn Beck.

I think I have a crush on Glenn Beck.

He just read a letter on O'Reilly's show. I was like, 'Daaang little pudgy married man! You ugly, but you hot when you talk!'

I've been writing all day. And now it's late and my day is gone. I'm feeling huffy.

I'm a feminist but I'm not like the dykes running around advocating fetal murder. I'd slap those hoes.

Oh no! I'm violent like they say! Hahaha.

I'm gonna WRECK this bottle of wine tonight.

I need to finish my work. I am being interviewed by a pro-abort tomorrow! This should be interesting....

Current Mood: creative

324 BignJames  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:03:10pm

re: #320 Shiplord Kirel


True culture shock.

325 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:04:12pm

re: #319 NY Nana

Goodnight {Nana}. Sweet dreams.

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:05:34pm

I just realized I totally misread something above, and as a result posted something rather awful. Urgh.

327 srb1976  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:29pm

Evening folks, been following along from work, while resisting the temptation to comment,

Hope everyone is well

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:43pm

re: #323 ShanghaiEd

Now, this is enlightening. The newest post on Gingi Edmonds' "other" blog, in which she professes a crush on...Glenn Beck.

Well. Is he single?

329 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:48pm

re: #321 MrPaulRevere

The demonization of Dr. Tiller got him killed, yet you persist...

What did you do, just walk in, read a comment and decide I'm demonizing the guy? You read nothing and have no clue what or why I was presenting what I was presenting.

330 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:52pm

re: #323 ShanghaiEd

Now, this is enlightening. The newest post on Gingi Edmonds' "other" blog, in which she professes a crush on...Glenn Beck.

My God. She thinks she's feeling creative?! What does she want to create other than more propaganda? That stream of consciousness has to be the most frightening such thing I've ever read.

331 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:52pm

re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist

Can't be any worse than 99% of the crap I post by design....

332 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:08:36pm

re: #331 Fenway_Nation

Can't be any worse than 99% of the crap I post by design....

Distant Thunder posted about some girl who came into her clinic wanting to abort so she'd fit into her wedding dress. I thought she HADN'T, so I said I was glad there was a happy ending. Apparently she DID.

I feel like a complete dork.

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:00pm

re: #331 Fenway_Nation

Can't be any worse than 99% of the crap I post by design....

Thank you, BTW.

334 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:20pm

re: #327 srb1976

Are you ready for the big birthday celebration?

335 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:20pm

re: #330 Dark_Falcon

My God. She thinks she's feeling creative?! What does she want to create other than more propaganda? That stream of consciousness has to be the most frightening such thing I've ever read.

Perhaps a new type of pistol suppressor for use in churches?

336 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:25pm

I have to get to bed. This debate demands for focus than my weary mind can give now. Goodnight, all.

337 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:10:53pm

This is kinda Cool.

Awesome pics from recent shuttle mission.

338 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:11:10pm

re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that's an extremely important thing for young men to be told. Good on ya.

Thanks. Don't know how anyone will feel about the other side of that.
My daughter got pregnant and I gave her partner an option, with her permission (she didn't see him as anything more than an 'oops').

Either be a part of your childs' life and help support him and his mother or do not - EVER - try to be a part of their lives.

He chose the latter. So far it's worked out. The daughter has married, current husband has been 'daddy' since the grandson was 2 years old and everyone is doing OK.

I'm hoping that the 'father' keeps his word or I will bury him - with legal papers.

It was so much cheaper to deal problems like that when I was a young motorcycle enthusiast...

339 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:11:15pm

re: #332 SanFranciscoZionist

OK....I can see how that would be a tad awkward.

340 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:11:52pm

re: #321 MrPaulRevere


Sounds like maybe you don't like a message you try to shut it down, huh?

341 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:11:55pm

re: #330 Dark_Falcon

My God. She thinks she's feeling creative?! What does she want to create other than more propaganda? That stream of consciousness has to be the most frightening such thing I've ever read.

Propbably busy dreaming up astatine hydrochloride: a radioactive acid, that can be dropped on the roof of a church where an abortion doctor is worshipping, eat through the roof, and kill him inside via radiation poisoning.

/

342 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:29pm

re: #329 unrealizedviewpoint

I just looked through your recent comments, perhaps I was mistaken but I don't know what point you are trying to make. Clarity is a virtue.

343 Desert Dog  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:40pm

An OT for your viewing pleasure and lightening a pretty serious thread at the same time:

Ultimate Rubber Band Gun

344 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:53pm

re: #320 Shiplord Kirel

Funny that was.

345 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:57pm

I, for one, still cannot get over the fact that this happened in the lobby of a mainline Protestant church in the heartland of America.
What kind of beast does it take to walk up to an unarmed 67 year old church usher and shoot him dead in front of his wife and a crowd of children?

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:38pm

re: #339 Fenway_Nation

OK....I can see how that would be a tad awkward.

A tad.

347 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:56pm

re: #342 MrPaulRevere

I just looked through your recent comments, perhaps I was mistaken but I don't know what point you are trying to make. Clarity is a virtue.

Almost an apology, then a jab. nice!

348 NY Nana  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:14:32pm

re: #325 Pvt Bin Jammin

{Pvt Bin Jammin} Here's back at you! I really am wasted, and will try for a 2:30 AM landing on my pillow.

G'nite for real, and don't forget your milk and cookies!

349 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:14:40pm

re: #345 Shiplord Kirel

I, for one, still cannot get over the fact that this happened in the lobby of a mainline Protestant church in the heartland of America.
What kind of beast does it take to walk up to an unarmed 67 year old church usher and shoot him dead in front of his wife and a crowd of children?

A jihadi beast. Just like the Methodist minister who blew off the faces of an abortion doctor and a clinic escort in my hometown with a shotgun.

350 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:15:34pm

re: #342 MrPaulRevere

I just looked through your recent comments, perhaps I was mistaken but I don't know what point you are trying to make. Clarity is a virtue.

Following the flow of a thread, reading comments in order, in context, may be of some assist to some folks.

351 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:15:41pm

re: #347 unrealizedviewpoint

Enlighten us, what point ARE you trying to make?

352 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:15:41pm

re: #348 NY Nana

{Pvt Bin Jammin} Here's back at you! I really am wasted, and will try for a 2:30 AM landing on my pillow.

G'nite for real, and don't forget your milk and cookies!

Yum. Have a great day tomorrow.

353 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:16:03pm

re: #345 Shiplord Kirel

I, for one, still cannot get over the fact that this happened in the lobby of a mainline Protestant church in the heartland of America.
What kind of beast does it take to walk up to an unarmed 67 year old church usher and shoot him dead in front of his wife and a crowd of children?

A seriously f***ed up one, Shiplord. No other thing to be said. Just sick s***.

354 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:16:12pm

re: #348 NY Nana

No way! PBJ gets milk & cookies and fruitcup!? And her initials are the same as a peanut butter & jelly sandwich?

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:17:02pm

OK. I need to go to sleep. I have a hideous final to give tomorrow.

356 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:03pm

re: #298 Salamantis

Thanks, but even Kansas doesn't have the stats that were presented, their category is 22 weeks or more.

hmm, on the back of the form

It is the professional judgement of the attending
physician that there is a reasonable probability that
this pregnancy may be viable.

yes for 192 of the 323.


To keep things clear, I'm only debating the way the stats have been presented and questioning the numbers that are being quoted.

357 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:20pm

re: #349 Salamantis

A jihadi beast. Just like the Methodist minister who blew off the faces of an abortion doctor and a clinic escort in my hometown with a shotgun.

You've told us about that monster before. Absolutely terrifying to have to see fanatical evil like that. I'm glad I've never had to see that.

Good night for real this time.

358 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:58pm

re: #354 Fenway_Nation

No way! PBJ gets milk & cookies and fruitcup!? And her initials are the same as a peanut butter & jelly sandwich?

Coincidence? I think not....

And I'm going to offer up an ice cream drumstick just to really mess you up.
Nothing personal. It's just thtat i'm undead and it's what we do.

359 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:19:01pm

re: #351 MrPaulRevere

Enlighten us, what point ARE you trying to make?

Impertinent prick.

360 srb1976  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:19:41pm

re: #334 Pvt Bin Jammin

Are you ready for the big birthday celebration?

Getting closer.....will be ready in time, thanks = )

361 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:20:00pm

re: #354 Fenway_Nation

No way! PBJ gets milk & cookies and fruitcup!? And her initials are the same as a peanut butter & jelly sandwich?

I am skinny, LOL, but I'll share anyway.

362 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:20:10pm

re: #359 unrealizedviewpoint

Impertinent prick.

That could certainly be a point, but it doesn't really tell the story.

363 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:21:28pm

What grown men do with their G.I. Joe action figures

364 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:21:41pm

re: #360 srb1976

Getting closer.....will be ready in time, thanks = )

Have a great time.

365 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:22:52pm

re: #349 Salamantis

A jihadi beast. Just like the Methodist minister who blew off the faces of an abortion doctor and a clinic escort in my hometown with a shotgun.

Ah, the late Paul Hill. He had the creepiest grin I have ever seen on a human being's face, and I have encountered some very nasty killers over the years. Hill was homicidal insanity personified. I remember you mentioning that you had encountered this freak in person. Thank you for your courage and your willingness to speak the truth.
It isn't easy for me to take a pro-choice position (see my #257) but I do it for the same reason you and Charles do: It is the right thing to do.

366 Van Helsing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:23:43pm

re: #363 Racer X

What grown men do with their G.I. Joe action figures

Too funny!

367 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:24:21pm

re: #356 slokat

Thanks, but even Kansas doesn't have the stats that were presented, their category is 22 weeks or more.

hmm, on the back of the form


yes for 192 of the 323.


To keep things clear, I'm only debating the way the stats have been presented and questioning the numbers that are being quoted.

If 15a was yes, was this abortion necessary to

Prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a
major bodily function 192

368 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:25:19pm

re: #363 Racer X

What grown men do with their G.I. Joe action figures

We know a guy who probably has every GI Joe ever made, goes to GI Joe conventions, etc. LOL He's about 45 yrs old.

369 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:12pm

re: #363 Racer X

What grown men do with their G.I. Joe action figures

Very cool. I didn't take my GI Joe to Iraq with me, for fear he would be doll-napped by insurgents, but he is standing proudly on a nearby shelf as we speak.

370 srb1976  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:49pm

re: #365 Shiplord Kirel

Ah, the late Paul Hill. He had the creepiest grin I have ever seen on a human being's face, and I have encountered some very nasty killers over the years. Hill was homicidal insanity personified. I remember you mentioning that you had encountered this freak in person. Thank you for your courage and your willingness to speak the truth.
It isn't easy for me to take a pro-choice position (see my #257) but I do it for the same reason you and Charles do: It is the right thing to do.

Without going into too much detail, I have found that my position on this issue has shifted over the years, you never know how you will react until you are smacked in the face with reallity......sometimes there is just no good answer.

371 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:29:05pm

...another reason on the back of the form

Prevent patient's death

yes = 0

I find that weird, no women sought an abortion in Kansas in 2008 because their life was threatened by the pregnancy.

(caveat: this 2008 report is still listed as preliminary)

372 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:29:20pm

Another insight into Edmonds' "pro-life" mission, from a post on her blog in April 2009:

I was thinking about the story of Moses. Before he was born, when the Pharaoh of Egypt ordered the midwives - Shiphrah and Puah - to kill the Hebrew boys while the women were delivering them, they refused to do so, and were said to be then blessed by God with 'families' for fearing the Lord. I was meditating on that.. family being a blessing. But then I thought of the blessing of recognition that wasn't even mentioned... it's really quite astounding. From the time of Joseph to the new Hyksos king that felt threatened by the Hebrews, not a single royal name is mentioned and have slipped into obscurity.... including the mighty baby-butcher Pharaoh himself! And yet these two brave, humble midwives are recognized through countless generations for their bravery in standing up against the LEGAL and LAWFUL verdict of death towards innocent babies.

I want to be like that. Generations from now when Barack Obama is just a silouhette of a figure who championed death, I want to be the little girl who stood up. And really, all I want is for my name to be remembered by God, and a family to love as my own someday. ^_^

I am going to work on my bonsai today! Wish me luck!

For some reason, the word "childlike" comes to mind when I read those paragraphs. Maybe it's the "I want to be the little girl" part. Were little girls actually midwives?

And in the Bible story, what did the midwives "sacrifice" for "standing up"? The Lord rewarded them with families. Sounds like a deal, to me. I think she has a fantasy of being a martyr without the downside.

373 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:30:28pm

re: #370 srb1976

Without going into too much detail, I have found that my position on this issue has shifted over the years, you never know how you will react until you are smacked in the face with reallity......sometimes there is just no good answer.

When the political gets personal, positions change.

The minister of the Southern Baptist church that was bussing protestors to the local clinic brought his underaged daughter in for an abortion after a young boy of another race got her pregnant.

374 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:32:36pm

re: #371 slokat

...another reason on the back of the form


yes = 0

I find that weird, no women sought an abortion in Kansas in 2008 because their life was threatened by the pregnancy.

(caveat: this 2008 report is still listed as preliminary)

Brain damage or paralysis risk to the mother aren't fatal, but, among other "substantial and irreversible impairment of a
major bodily function" are good and sufficient reasons nonetheless.

375 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:35:19pm

So, "only if the life of the mother is threatened" becomes a statistically meaningless provision.

376 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:36:34pm

re: #372 ShanghaiEd

For some reason, the word "childlike" comes to mind when I read those paragraphs. Maybe it's the "I want to be the little girl" part. Were little girls actually midwives?

And in the Bible story, what did the midwives "sacrifice" for "standing up"? The Lord rewarded them with families. Sounds like a deal, to me. I think she has a fantasy of being a martyr without the downside.

The Biblical character Rachel is an icon of the radical antiabortion movement; they actually bought a slice of land next to the local clinic upon which they erected a statue of her.

They love to blow trumpets during protests, recalling the Battle of Jericho, where after trumpets were blown, the walls fell down and Joshua's army killed every human being inside.

Their favorite days to firebomb clinics are Christmas and Mother's Day.

They have developed an entire alternative antiabortion theology.

377 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:37:21pm

re: #375 slokat

So, "only if the life of the mother is threatened" becomes a statistically meaningless provision.

Life OR HEALTH, if the threat to health is physical and substantial.

378 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:40:41pm

Anyone watching Conan with the clip of Brian Williams and Obama?

"And uh........Conan"

Yes, that's how Obama speaks, Conan!

379 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:42:14pm

re: #378 TheMatrix31

Anyone watching Conan with the clip of Brian Williams and Obama?

"And uh........Conan"

Yes, that's how Obama speaks, Conan!

Well, I'll repost that on the next thread.

380 Fearless Fred  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:46:24pm

re: #28 Charles

And in every case, he followed the laws of the state of Kansas, which require that two independent doctors certify a medical necessity for the abortion. The women whose lives were saved by making the wrenching, painful decision to have late term abortions disagree with your assessment of Tiller as a "bad man."

Huh. Why, if they were trying to save their lives, didn't they go to a hospital, instead of to see this baby-killing creepy guy? If my interest were in staying alive, I think I'd have run from this weirdo. If I had a 'medical necessity', and my life were in danger, I'd get to a regular hospital (where the specialty was in saving and protecting life) very quickly. What would be the reason they'd trust this guy, more than a real hospital?

381 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:50:40pm

re: #370 srb1976

Without going into too much detail, I have found that my position on this issue has shifted over the years, you never know how you will react until you are smacked in the face with reallity......sometimes there is just no good answer.

So very true. I saw a study recently that puzzles me, though. A research project showed that girls and women who attend religious schools/colleges are somewhat more likely to have abortions than those in public/secular schools. I'm trying to get an insight into the psychology--particularly on the fundamentalist side--of this whole debate, and that finding seems counter-intuitive to me. Do anybody have a theory? I have the link somewhere, if anyone's interested.

382 slokat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:54:41pm

re: #381 ShanghaiEd

No need to work your way out of a moral dilemma if none exists?

383 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:57:11pm

re: #380 Fearless Fred

Huh. Why, if they were trying to save their lives, didn't they go to a hospital, instead of to see this baby-killing creepy guy? If my interest were in staying alive, I think I'd have run from this weirdo. If I had a 'medical necessity', and my life were in danger, I'd get to a regular hospital (where the specialty was in saving and protecting life) very quickly. What would be the reason they'd trust this guy, more than a real hospital?

Because a lot of those hospitals (and physiciians connected with them) will not perform late term abortions, even to prevent serious and lasting injury to the woman, because they are afraid of the radical antiabortion gestapo - and with very good reason.

And babies are BORN, so Dr. Tiller is NOT a baby killing guy. Not is he creepy or a weirdo; he just forfeited his own life because he possessed too much compassion to turn away from womens' dire medical needs, even regardless of the obviously valid threat to his own life.

You, however, I find to be a sick and ghastly ghoul.

384 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:58:43pm

re: #376 Salamantis

The Biblical character Rachel is an icon of the radical antiabortion movement; they actually bought a slice of land next to the local clinic upon which they erected a statue of her.

They love to blow trumpets during protests, recalling the Battle of Jericho, where after trumpets were blown, the walls fell down and Joshua's army killed every human being inside.

Their favorite days to firebomb clinics are Christmas and Mother's Day.

They have developed an entire alternative antiabortion theology.

Wow. I'd heard of the trumpet ritual, but wasn't aware of the other facts. Is there a book you'd recommend on the psychology...or, "alternative theology"...of these folks? As repelled as I am by what they do, I'm drawn to find out more about what makes them tick...how they can hold such contradictory information in their brains and still get through daily life

385 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:59:51pm

re: #382 slokat

No need to work your way out of a moral dilemma if none exists?

So the religious women experience less of a moral dilemma concerning proceeding with obtaining abortions for themselves than do secular women?

That's what the statistics would seem to imply.

386 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:02:15am

re: #382 slokat

No need to work your way out of a moral dilemma if none exists?

I don't understand. Common wisdom would say that people with strict religious training feel more of a dilemma regarding abortion. Are you saying that's not the case?

387 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:02:35am

re: #384 ShanghaiEd

Wow. I'd heard of the trumpet ritual, but wasn't aware of the other facts. Is there a book you'd recommend on the psychology...or, "alternative theology"...of these folks? As repelled as I am by what they do, I'm drawn to find out more about what makes them tick...how they can hold such contradictory information in their brains and still get through daily life

Religious Violence and Abortion: The Gideon Project
by Dallas A. Blanchard and Terry J. Prewitt

I knew them both quite well, and their wives. Terry was a professor of mine.

388 SixDegrees  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:05:08am

re: #13 doppelganglander

Sorry to go OT so soon, but in other crazy people news:

Spoke a little too soon there, eh, Sparky?

Maybe. Or not. It isn't at all unusual for the authorities to put out false information while they are pursuing an active investigation, for any number of reasons. It's a bit early to be second-guessing those on the front lines just yet.

389 slokat  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:05:46am

Hhmm, you both took my comment the opposite of how it was intended.

Less stigma to unwed pregnancy would mean less reason to abort.

Although, erasing the facts could also erase the dilemma...

390 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:07:09am

re: #389 slokat

Hhmm, you both took my comment the opposite of how it was intended.

Less stigma to unwed pregnancy would mean less reason to abort.

Although, erasing the facts could also erase the dilemma...

Wouldn't God know anyway?

391 SixDegrees  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:10:57am

re: #79 jaunte

Here's a story from 1999, current once again:

Court Rules Site Is a Menace

Good to know. Like I've said all along, people like Terry and his ilk are opening themselves up to incitement charges, and those charges are richly deserved. They're also treading within a hair's breadth of much more serious conspiracy charges, and there is mounting evidence that they may have firmly crossed that line as well. One can only hope. A world with Terry forgotten in prison would be a better world for everyone else.

392 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:11:42am

re: #389 slokat

I see what you mean, now. If that's the case, how ironic is it if the church's "moral" standards, as in stigma of unwed mothers, are leading to more abortions, not fewer? That would make some heads in the movement explode.

393 slokat  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:12:10am

re: #390 Salamantis

Wouldn't God know anyway?

Internal dilemma versus external dilemma...

394 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:16:01am

re: #387 Salamantis

Religious Violence and Abortion: The Gideon Project
by Dallas A. Blanchard and Terry J. Prewitt

I knew them both quite well, and their wives. Terry was a professor of mine.

Thanks, Salamantis. I'll track that one down, post haste.

395 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:16:39am

re: #393 slokat

Internal dilemma versus external dilemma...

Well, we see which one has the greater force.

396 slokat  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:17:27am

re: #394 ShanghaiEd

Amazon lists it.

397 SixDegrees  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:17:54am

re: #380 Fearless Fred

Huh. Why, if they were trying to save their lives, didn't they go to a hospital, instead of to see this baby-killing creepy guy? If my interest were in staying alive, I think I'd have run from this weirdo. If I had a 'medical necessity', and my life were in danger, I'd get to a regular hospital (where the specialty was in saving and protecting life) very quickly. What would be the reason they'd trust this guy, more than a real hospital?

I know it's a strain, but at least try to learn the facts before running your mouth; get some friends to help you with the big words. Late-term abortions are complicated, risky procedures that require a specialist's attention - a specialist like Tiller. Those hospitals you're ignorantly bleating about don't have the expertise themselves; they referred patients requiring these procedures to Tiller.

There was almost certainly an added element of terror at the thought of a crazed religious moron barging into a hospital with guns blazing that made the separation of services more practical. Hospitals are huge complexes that are difficult and expensive to guard against knuckle-dragging retards, and their drooling is often mistaken for a treatable medical symptom instead of a manifestation of incurable idiocy.

398 slokat  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:18:41am

re: #395 Salamantis

Well, we see which one has the greater force.

Most people are really adept at lying to themselves.

399 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:19:35am

re: #396 slokat

Much cheaper used ones are available here:

[Link: used.addall.com...]

400 slokat  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:21:19am

re: #399 Salamantis

They start at $11.51 in the used book section of Amazon.

401 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:22:09am

re: #398 slokat

Most people are really adept at lying to themselves.

Or they just prefer lying to others in order to preserve their social standing in their church communities, and don't really accept their coreligionists' dogma that it's a mortal sin.

402 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:23:01am

re: #400 slokat

They start at $11.51 in the used book section of Amazon.

They start at $2.95 plus shipping at my link.

403 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:24:24am

re: #402 Salamantis

They start at $2.95 plus shipping at my link.

Actually, on further perusal, at a buck even plus shipping.

404 SixDegrees  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:33:30am

Guarantee: the same ghouls who are claiming this murder was justified, that "Tiller shouldn't have been murdered, but..." will be the same ones packing the courtroom of his killer to show their support for his actions and to snare a bit of his spotlight for themselves.

I hope the authorities are taking notes, and pictures of license plates.

405 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:42:29am

re: #403 Salamantis

Actually, on further perusal, at a buck even plus shipping.

Can't beat that. I'll track down my Visa and head that way. Thanks.

406 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:51:28am

John Burt subjected Michael Griffin, an unstable religiously fundamentalist individual facing a divorce and the dissolution of all his life's dreams, to hours of written and videotaped antiabortion propaganda. Shortly thereafter, he killed Dr. Gunn with a revolver at a local abortion clinic. I believe it was an attempt to redeem his failed life with God, by doing what he had been convinced was God's will, and that this mindset was engineered by John Burt, an individual who also drove John Brokhoeft, an out-of-town clinic bomber, past another local abortion clinic.

John Burt was charged but acquitted in both cases, but is now serving a lengthy prison term for sexually molesting the pregnant unwed girls in his fundamentalist unwed mothers' home.

This situation reminds me of what happened to Roeder on less personal and more media saturation terms, by people like Bill O'Reilly, with his constant raging against Tiller the Baby Killer and his repeated comparisons of this gentle and compassionate man with Joseph Mengele.

407 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:56:16am

re: #381 ShanghaiEd

So very true. I saw a study recently that puzzles me, though. A research project showed that girls and women who attend religious schools/colleges are somewhat more likely to have abortions than those in public/secular schools. I'm trying to get an insight into the psychology--particularly on the fundamentalist side--of this whole debate, and that finding seems counter-intuitive to me. Do anybody have a theory? I have the link somewhere, if anyone's interested.

The reason is that girls who attend religious schools and colleges are less likely to use birth control and be educated about forms of birth control. Consequently they are more likely to engage in unprotected sex.
The psychology issue here is that it's easy to tell other people they have to have babies they don't want, but the it sure feels a lot different when you're the one with the unwanted pregnancy.

408 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 1:05:45am

Oh yeah, and fuck you very much, rabidsquirrel, you chickenshit stealth downdinging bastard!

409 leereyno  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 2:12:51am

The "pro-choice" and "pro-life" camps are both full of nutters with too much time on their hands.

Given that I'm neither a promiscuous adolescent, nor an unborn baby, I don't give a rat's ass about abortion (and I'm sick of hearing about it.)

That being said, this Gingi person does have a point. If you believe that abortion kills people, then pretty much everything Gingi said is valid. If you believe that abortion destroys a non-sentient collection of cells, then Gingi's statements are irrational. No one cries when tumors are extracted.

The question is whether or not foetuses/embryos/unborn-infants/etc qualify as people. So far I've not heard a definitive answer on that one.

410 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:16:41am
411 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:11:08am

re: #397 SixDegrees

I know it's a strain, but at least try to learn the facts before running your mouth; get some friends to help you with the big words. Late-term abortions are complicated, risky procedures that require a specialist's attention - a specialist like Tiller. Those hospitals you're ignorantly bleating about don't have the expertise themselves; they referred patients requiring these procedures to Tiller.

There was almost certainly an added element of terror at the thought of a crazed religious moron barging into a hospital with guns blazing that made the separation of services more practical. Hospitals are huge complexes that are difficult and expensive to guard against knuckle-dragging retards, and their drooling is often mistaken for a treatable medical symptom instead of a manifestation of incurable idiocy.

I could care less that you have such contempt for religious people, but there are folks here who have children who are mentally disabled, and so I would respectfully ask you, for the sake of good manners, to refrain from the "knuckle-dragging retards" sort of descriptions of your contempt.

412 notutopia  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:41:06am

Excuse me while I retch.


Another SICKO. There are too many evil minded people with foul mouths on this earth. I can only hope OUR voices sings out like din above theirs.

413 CJDate  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:55:07am

re: #18 wee fury

Gingi Edwards also states:


This person needs some serious historical education.

I'm not going to defend this blogger in any other way, but it's pretty clear that she's turning one of the pro-abortion arguments around in a sarcastic manner when she says:

I mean, I personally would not shoot an abortionist, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else? If you are against shooting abortionists, then don't shoot one, right? Hmm, suddenly pro-choice rhetoric doesn't sound so warm and fuzzy and virtuous, does it?
414 Liberal Classic  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:07:59am

re: #115 Sharmuta

I agree with this. But where I differ from you is your "Baby Town" idea. I do wonder if we can't offer women a tax credit for choosing adoption. It's a good choice, and even if it could be considered selling a baby- I still don't see how it's wrong if the baby lives and is given to a home that wants that child. There are millions of couples waiting to adopt babies- we hardly need a baby town. Just an incentive for women to choose it. If we have to lure them with some money- I think the cost would be worth it.

Adoption already qualifies for a tax credit, as does foster care. A "baby town" aka an orphanage isn't really going to solve the problem. Children available for adoption via county child welfare agencies are generally abused and neglected children, or children with special medical needs such as wheelchairs and respirators. To be frank, these children are less attractive for adoption, especially for young families or those who cannot have children of their own. The problem is the regulatory environment in which adoptive parents operate. Public adoptions are expensive enough for parents even with the subsidies that already exist, and private adoptions are prohibitively so.

Our adoption has already cost us $10-20k and we expect another $20-30k in costs. These fees cover the legal expensive of terminating parental rights of the birth family and legal adoption of the child by the new family. They also cover living and medical expenses of the birth mother. The adoptive family is liable for all medical expenses over this amount, but as most (if not all) birth mothers qualify for public health benefits, the state is already picking up much of the cost. There is some overhead in the management of the money, because in order to avoid the appearance of "buying a baby" all funds to pay for living and medical expenses must be routed through an escrow account managed by the agency. There are also some miscellaneous costs associated with FBI background check, home study of the prospective adoptive parents by licensed social workers, emotional counseling of the birth mother, additional legal filings for permission to take a baby across state lines, etc. I have not included repairs on our house to make it suitable for the home study (some carpet and paint).

In my notes, I have written down the adoption tax credit is $11k.

415 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:15:39am

re: #410 TMK

Why don't you go find somewhere else to spew, troll?

416 Liberal Classic  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:38:21am

re: #265 SanFranciscoZionist


I think open adoptions are the way to go, and I think that we need to treat moms who are going to give their children to adoptive parents the same way we treat surrogate moms, and honor what they're doing. A friend of the family had a baby through a surrogate some time ago, and the two families interacted throughout the pregnancy and were very open and comfortable with what they were doing. If that were an option available to a pregnant woman--that she get support from her baby's future parents--I think that would help. Hell, if it were socially acceptable for a pregnant woman to simply say "I'm going to place this child for adoption," and have that be respected as a good and sane choice, rather than being pestered with questions about why she didn't keep it, and what might happen to it.

That was a good post. Public perception of adoption needs to change. This is not something that changing the law or creating a government subsidy can fix. There's still the perception that adoption is somewhat unnatural. They're not your "real" children or they're not your "real" parents. Mothers who adopt out their children are seen as having low morals, couples who cannot conceive are pitied as being barren, adoptive children are often viewed as being some kind of genetic wild card. It's getting better, but there is still the sense that adoption is somehow inferior. Since most people have children the usual way I guess it is human nature to consider something unusual as being abnormal.

417 KansasMom  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:48:49am

re: #414 Liberal Classic
Exactly. Adoption is not easy. Not for the birthmothers, and not for the adoptive parents either. Financial incentives may never be enough to counter the emotional strain of making an adoption plan. There are also so many financial incentives to keep a child, that I would doubt the effectivity of one for adoption. It is also cost- and regulation- prohibitive for most adoptive parents. Well worth it for those who go through the effort, but its not for most people.
Since this is somewhat anonymous, I will say that each of my adoptions cost over $30k. Add to that the fact that I was not eligible for maternity leave and had to take time off work unpaid instead. And you can see how very expensive it can be to build a family this way. The 11k tax credit is great, and it helps pay off the 2nd mortgage after the fact, but you still have to raise the money to begin with.
Also, and this is an unpleasant fact, but most adoptive parents want healthy white children. Healthy can never be guaranteed, and there are way more adoptive parents than there are available white children. Its always good that there are more waiting parents than there are children. Unless you are a minority birthmother who is not capable of raising a child and then it limits your choices greatly.

418 KansasMom  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:54:25am

re: #416 Liberal Classic

If I can ask, where are you in teh process? Are you waiting for a referral?

419 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:54:37am

re: #416 Liberal Classic

re: #417 KansasMom

Agree with both of you, esp. on the part about "adoptions" being seen as unnatural, particularly for the birth mother, who is frequently shunned for having placed the baby for adoption.

My daughter had a baby when she was 15. Through great counseling and assistance from Catholic Charities, she decided and to place the baby for adoption, and she chose the couple. I cannot tell you the number of people who would look at her (and us) really strange, and some even made comments, because we weren't "keeping" the baby. No one can understand the pain of that decision; but in my daughter's case, it was absolutely the correct decision to make.

420 S'latch  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:54:49am

Reductio ad Hitlerum arguments generally indicate something is wrong.

421 KansasMom  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:55:58am

re: #419 reine.de.tout

re: #417 KansasMom

Agree with both of you, esp. on the part about "adoptions" being seen as unnatural, particularly for the birth mother, who is frequently shunned for having placed the baby for adoption.

My daughter had a baby when she was 15. Through great counseling and assistance from Catholic Charities, she decided and to place the baby for adoption, and she chose the couple. I cannot tell you the number of people who would look at her (and us) really strange, and some even made comments, because we weren't "keeping" the baby. No one can understand the pain of that decision; but in my daughter's case, it was absolutely the correct decision to make.

Your daughter is a very brave young lady.

422 Wondering Aloud  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:56:37am

This is so hard to read without wild emotions, but, I don't think the original horrible blog is actually supporting the murder so much as pointing out the logical inconsistency with which this entire issue is discussed.

If Christians really were the violent fanatics that the left always pretends they are, there wouldn't be anyone doing abortions. As it is we are shocked to the point of screaming hysteria that some nut ball murdered a person, just because the nut ball seems to have had pro-life beliefs.

I find myself agreeing with many posters above especially Dark Falcon, but I think the shock and horror expressed at the act is traceable to the fact that Christians just don't do this type of thing. Let's get a grip he was a nut who likely convinced himself that the fact that this so called Doctor was in a church was in fact the very thing he couldn't stand. I am surprised that the people in that congregation were not uncomfortable with his presence.

How would you like to do Tiller's eulogy and try to make it sound like he was doing Christ's work here on Earth?

For ArchangelMichael:
I have no idea how many abortions this guy was responsible for but one a day is not a reasonable number 10-20 is more likely. The procedure is not that time consuming and the clinic profits from the large number that they do.

423 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:58:33am

re: #421 KansasMom

Your daughter is a very brave young lady.

thinking of the pain I saw on her face when she handed that baby to the adoptive parents - I just want to cry even now. But then seeing that child them during a visit later, and watching their joy and wonder - indescribable.

424 KansasMom  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:08:57am

re: #423 reine.de.tout

thinking of the pain I saw on her face when she handed that baby to the adoptive parents - I just want to cry even now. But then seeing that child them during a visit later, and watching their joy and wonder - indescribable.


I think that is the very moment that gets lost in most adoption conversations. Adoption always starts with loss.
All children are gifts from God. Mine are also gifts from their birthmothers. I'm very grateful for them.
Give your daughter a hug today!

425 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:19:24am

re: #424 KansasMom

I think that is the very moment that gets lost in most adoption conversations. Adoption always starts with loss.
All children are gifts from God. Mine are also gifts from their birthmothers. I'm very grateful for them.
Give your daughter a hug today!

{kansasmom}
will do, and one for you too!

426 Catttt  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:36:41am

Thanks for the posts on the option of adoption. As an adoptee at age 7 months, I consider myself very lucky. My birth mother loved me - she gave me birth. Then, she made a sacrifice by giving me up to Catholic Charities for adoption. As a teen, she was not able to raise me. I had two wonderful parents, but I never stopped honoring my birth parents - especially my birth mother.

I did also want to post that I just went in the kitchen and checked my tacky (but I like it) ten commandments picture, and the sixth commandment is still on the list. Murder is a terrible sin, and there is no excuse for murder. We might not all agree about abortion, but no one can deny that Dr. Tiller was murdered. To make it worse, if that is possible, he was slain in God's House.

427 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:45:52am
428 vanilla  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:47:39am

re: #50 Van Helsing

I smile when I read about some miscreant breaking into a house, assaulting someone, or trying to do a carjacking and getting killed by their intended victim.

This - ain't that. It was murder and the murderer should bear the fullest penalty of law available.

I find Dr. Tillman's profession abhorrent. However the law says it is legal and I support a nation of laws.

Well said. Please do not lump all people who are 'pro-life' with these extremists. As we have seen, extremists in any cause (or religion) can overshadow the moderates. I believe in the sanctity of life from 'womb to tomb' and find the murder of Dr. Tiller to be unjustifiable. I think it's safe to say that there are many others that consider themselves 'pro-life' who feel the same way and believe in a nation of laws - some that are liked and some that are disliked. Feelings aside, laws are laws and if we must respect them equally.

429 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:55:23am

re: #410 TMK

You have dim comprehension I see. Tossing turds out of the pool keeps it from becoming a cesspool. You can usually tell the turds by their slime and bile. What's that I smell on you?

430 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:59:16am

re: #422 Wondering Aloud

Nice way to try to diminish an act of terror and a 20 year campaign by rabid ideologues to demonize a doctor performing his job within the law.

431 Yashmak  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:16:59am

re: #410 TMK

It's a shame you have to threaten to ban people, because you know what will happen in this cesspool of yours.

It'll grow? Because, well, that's what's happened. Charles has been deleting the accounts of hate filled trolls for years, but the number of new commentors continues to grow, as does the richness of the discussions and debates held here.

432 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:17:37am
433 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:19:53am
434 Wondering Aloud  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:26:54am

I made no effort to do any such thing Thanos. Perhaps you need to get a grip. Rabid ideologues? 20 year campaign? Within the law?

Perhaps you should address your own issues with a little honesty. Within the law does not make it right, and the literally tens of millions of people, including the original plaintiff, who think the supreme court overstepped in one dumb case have been far more peaceful overall than in most emotional political issues and you know it.

If you want a look at political and religious repression take a gander at the proposed "Freedom of Choice Act" that Obama promised to get passed. But the left can always see past the log in their own eye can't they. That would be a good place for your moral indignation.

435 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:34:21am

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

It wasn't that many but Tiller certainly killed thousands of otherwise viable babies. Tiller was a bad man and his clinic should have been shut down, but he should not have been murdered.

It would be more appropriate if you called all the women, who for many reasons felt they had to terminate a pregnancy, also bad or evil, and that in one manner or another, short of murder, they should be shut down.

436 American Sabra  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:42:07am

re: #427 Mrseener

I'll bite....

I read 3 of those stories. All heart wrenching, but one thing you left out. These children were horribly deformed. Each of these parents wanted their children and had no intention of aborting them. They waited out the pregnancies to see how the babies were doing. One woman even said that at one point it was discovered that the worst case scenario would be that her child would not be able to walk and she was fine with that meaning she would have no problem caring for such a child. However, if I recall the child had serious spina bifida and they eventually decided to abort the baby.

What right do any of us have to force a person to care for a seriously deformed child? What right do we have to force a person into this world who will be living every day in physical agony? How do you know what these people are able to afford, does their healthcare cover such expenses or will they have to sell everything they own to care for a child who will spend their life in a hospital only to die in a few years, months or weeks later.

Lots to consider and all these things were considered in your stories by these parents. Reading them, I never came away with any insincere or selfish motives. All these people really wanted their babies and were even willing to accept some deformities. At some point, it was too much.

Anyway, the real point is... Murdering Tiller was wrong and can never be justified. He was performing a legal service that was "medically necessary" and yes, that's a real term, not just an arbitrary statement. Comparing him to Ted Bundy (I know you didn't do that) is insane because what Tiller did was LEGAL even if horrifying. Lots of people have horrifying, but necessary jobs.

437 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:49:02am

re: #432 Mrseener

Your story is commendable, but as you say, you would not wish that, or worse even, on anyone. It is not your example or position that is being criticized, it is those who probably for the most part have nothing of your experience, but choose to impose their will on others in whose shoes they have never walked.

I have no doubt that there are thousands of women who do consider Tiller a hero, not for what he did but for what he risked in order to help them.

438 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:51:37am

re: #414 Liberal Classic

Thank you Liberal Classic and Kansas Mom for the first hand accounts of adoption procedures. I have one adoption in my immediate family and can attest to the costs which were primarily legal fees.

For good order it was myself who mentioned "Baby Town" with (a bit) of hyperbole. But in its defense I linked the idea to a massive funding. And I mean massive funding. Unlike a certain poster above I do not confuse assets and liabilities. This funding would be an investment, not a cost.

Sharmuta (wisely) reigned the idea in and suggested a tax advantage to stimulate the adoption model. This is a good idea and more practically feasible and in line with the idea. Stimulate an alternative solution.

439 Land Shark  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:57:21am

The people celebrating the murder of Dr. Tiller are sick fucks, pure and simple. Mind you, I think Dr. Tiller was a sick fuck too, but his murder is not justified and just plain evil. To see so any fellow Pro-Lifers celebrating or condoning this murder turns my stomach. Sure isn't something Jesus would do, do these people even care what he would think of their sick glee? Pathetic!

440 Tully  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 9:30:39am

It wasn't that many but Tiller certainly killed thousands of otherwise viable babies.

In Kansas law, "viability" means "not dead yet and possibly able to be sustained however briefly on artifical life support." IOW, "not quite dead yet." And "non-viable" means "already dead."

So an acephalic fetus with spina bifida and an intact brain stem but unformed lungs is "viable" under Kansas law. As are conjoined twins when only one could be kept alive for 24 hours post-partum, and that with massive life support. Something the anti-abortionists refuse to acknowledge.

Instead anti-abotionists have misrepresented the hell out of Tiller's practice to claim that he was aborting late-term healthy "viable" babies for no good reason other than contraception. Truth was he referred out healthy pregnancies with healthy fetuses to the adoption services, and performed late-term abortions for severe fetal abnormality and health risks to the mother.

Another thing the anti-abortion people deny is that a clinical abortion is categorically safer for the mother than either vaginal delivery or C-section. While the odds are not high on either, carrying to term and delivering carries about four or five times the rate of maternal death and permanent injury that a controlled clinical abortion does.

441 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 9:33:28am

This "Tiller was killed by a Pro-Choice Act" bullshit was being expressed two days ago by the "wonderful" folks at Operation Save America website. Now I see it is a 'net wide talking point for the fringies.

Sick, sick, sick.

442 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 9:46:00am

re: #380 Fearless Fred

Huh. Why, if they were trying to save their lives, didn't they go to a hospital, instead of to see this baby-killing creepy guy? If my interest were in staying alive, I think I'd have run from this weirdo. If I had a 'medical necessity', and my life were in danger, I'd get to a regular hospital (where the specialty was in saving and protecting life) very quickly. What would be the reason they'd trust this guy, more than a real hospital?

If you don't think that most women who choose to have late term abortions have already been to many doctors and gotten many opinions, and tried everything to avoid that choice, you're in a fantasy world -- a world in which you choose to believe the worst about people you don't even know.

443 doubter4444  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 9:46:54am

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

They may disagree, but Tiller also performed late-term abortions that were not medically necessary. I stand by my statement. George Tiller was no better than a hitman, as he killed for profit. I do not condone his murder and I hope the man who killed him is given life in prison or death.

Link, please, otherwise I need to say that you are a person with neither the grace to look further than your own blinkered postions and nor the streanght to find facts for your arguments.
However, links that show he was "a hit man" and I'll take it all back.
No WWD, or Newmax, please.

I will throw you a bone: Are you talking about comments where he said depression was a reason to abort?
I ask because I have seen that comment, but it seems it was taken out of context, and context does make a difference.

444 EaterOfFood  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 9:53:08am

Have these lunatics actually prevented any abortions, or do they just murder the providers?

445 doubter4444  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 9:59:48am

re: #440 Tully

It wasn't that many but Tiller certainly killed thousands of otherwise viable babies.

In Kansas law, "viability" means "not dead yet and possibly able to be sustained however briefly on artificial life support." IOW, "not quite dead yet." And "non-viable" means "already dead."

So an acephalic fetus with spina bifida and an intact brain stem but unformed lungs is "viable" under Kansas law. As are conjoined twins when only one could be kept alive for 24 hours post-partum, and that with massive life support. Something the anti-abortionists refuse to acknowledge.
Instead anti-abotionists have misrepresented the hell out of Tiller's practice to claim that he was aborting late-term healthy "viable" babies for no good reason other than contraception. Truth was he referred out healthy pregnancies with healthy fetuses to the adoption services, and performed late-term abortions for severe fetal abnormality and health risks to the mother.

Another thing the anti-abortion people deny is that a clinical abortion is categorically safer for the mother than either vaginal delivery or C-section. While the odds are not high on either, carrying to term and delivering carries about four or five times the rate of maternal death and permanent injury that a controlled clinical abortion does.

This is important for people to recognize. Tiller is portrayed as wanting to kill fetuses Willy-nilly for a couple of bucks.
It's just not true.
It's a lie, propaganda, and it cheapens one of the hardest and emotional
decisions a family or woman can make.
I know many feel that it should be ever done, but that is just not realistic.
I won't go into it, because I did on another thread, this is a very persona; issue to me and I have slightly more experience about this kind of stuff than others... and it forces me into a more moderate position.

446 doubter4444  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 10:01:01am

Sorry for the typos!
My bad.
I get that way sometimes

447 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 10:04:59am

Re #432.433.

Registered since 2004, 105 posts.

Why is that such a common descriptor for meltdowns? Most likely these ones haven't been to LGF for years, even as lurkers. Are they being sent here from other sites that mention LGF?

448 KansasMom  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 10:15:05am

re: #445 doubter4444

I just went back and read the post you were referring to.
Very well said. It is compassion for those very cases you mentioned that is lacking in the pro-life movement. And those are the cases that need it the most. I'll never understand.

449 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 10:16:16am

re: #440 Tully

Well stated. The type of high minded pretense and factual dishonesty that you describe is the same mindset that we see in ID/creationists who have some kind of blinkers on when it comes to seeing reality as it is.

It is one thing to live ones own principles; it is another entirely when one forces them directly or indirectly on others.

450 KansasMom  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 10:17:36am

re: #446 doubter4444

Sorry for the typos!
My bad.
I get that way sometimes


Don't worry, your writing overcomes it.

451 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 10:23:15am

re: #448 KansasMom

I just went back and read the post you were referring to.
Very well said. It is compassion for those very cases you mentioned that is lacking in the pro-life movement. And those are the cases that need it the most. I'll never understand.

I agree. I'm shocked at how many people are willing to believe the worst about women who have abortions, accusing them of casually murdering their children. The lack of compassion, in people who claim to be concerned about human life, is very disturbing.

452 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 10:45:13am
453 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 10:53:09am

re: #452 AyUaxe

Get off my website.

454 Lynn B.  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 11:08:51am

re: #299 Slumbering Behemoth

[re: O'Reilly's claim that Tiller aborted 60,000 healthy babies at $5000 each]

That would put his total, pre-tax income for this at $300,000,000. I find those numbers impossible to believe.

I know this is a very minor point in the overall picture, but in addition to the absurdity of that number as pointed out by many others earlier in this thread ...

I assume that by pre-tax income you mean net (not gross) income before tax. But consider that Dr. Tiller was required to live and work in a fortified bunker, to hire security personnel, including a full-time bodyguard, to install sophisticated security cameras and other devices at his clinic and all this on top of the normal expenses involved in practicing his profession. So even if (and it's a big if) that $5,000 number is right, his net income before taxes would have been considerably less.

/as if the level of his income has any bearing anyway on the justification for his murder ...

455 doubter4444  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 11:13:47am

re: #450 KansasMom

Don't worry, your writing overcomes it.

Aww, thanks!
and for the note from above, thanks again, that's really kind.
Our daughter is strong and full of life (though I want to strangle her sometimes) and a fighter.
The months she was in the hospital, even though she does not really remember anything left a make, in a positive way.

I am personally fairly pro-life, in that I think that abortions need to have a real reason to be ended, and for that reason I support plan b and birth control and reasonable sexual education.
I really think that we can work so much harder on not having girls and women get unintentionally pregnant, and to really save lives, that's the way to do it.
And I think that if we work towards that, then the fewer there (abortions) are, the fewer there will be, that it will build as a downward cycle.
Which is good.

456 American Sabra  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 11:26:02am

re: #455 doubter4444

I also appreciate your comments, particularly coming from the pro-life side. I think it's unusual.

One of the hardest parts of the issue for me is the pro-life position that only abstinence should be taught. It's completely unrealistic in our day and age. Even handing them condoms in school is 100% fine for me.

I've mentioned this before, but religious folks like to say No a lot. No to abortion, no to Planned Parenthood (which is more about women's health/contraceptive issues than abortions), no to contraception, giving young people zero options other than to contain their horneyness. Meanwhile we have 16 year old Miley Cyrus - and the like - bumping and grinding all over the TV while the age of her intended audience has barely broken puberty, let alone knows anything about sex.

Well anyway, we can't have it both ways. Something has to give somewhere.

457 JackofTrades  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 11:31:50am

A little too late for retching. I'm already into those painful dry heaves. I have repeatedly pointed out, while making it abundantly plain that I am pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers, that I completely condemn the actions here of murdering abortionists. Of course, I am not always clear, coherent, or concise in my statements, no matter how hard I try.

This does a much better job than I do, I think.

458 doubter4444  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #456 American Sabra

You know, my position puts me in the pro-choice camp though.
My support of some reasons and some time requirement excludes me from the pro-life crowd, it's just not enough. In fact I'm sure I'd be considered a squishy.
As you mentioned, for some people, it's always black and white.
It's an easy way to live I guess, being that certain all the time, but a angry one.

459 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:23:14pm

re: #453 Charles

AyUaxe

This user is blocked.

Registered since: Feb 16, 2009 at 10:35 am
No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0

Gone in 1 post! I didn't see what it wrote, but is that a record?

460 Yashmak  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 12:57:44pm

re: #459 Kenneth

Yeah, that's pretty impressive!

461 oldschool  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 1:17:49pm

440 Tully

So an acephalic fetus with spina bifida and an intact brain stem but unformed lungs is "viable" under Kansas law. As are conjoined twins when only one could be kept alive for 24 hours post-partum, and that with massive life support. Something the anti-abortionists refuse to acknowledge.

Well I am not convinced that all of Tillers abortions met the above
criteria. So why ague with you as none of us will know if he aborted
late term on demand or if all were necessary unless we can access his
records. I don't see that happening. But I am convinced he did it on
demand for 5k and that is my opinion which is as good as anyone elses
here without the records to prove one way or the other. As far as his
murder very wrong. As far as being in a church what difference does
it make where you are murdered? You are still dead.

462 Tully  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 1:47:41pm

oldschool, I don't give a flying blob what you "believe." I learned long ago that those with with fixed agendas simply make up their own "facts" to conform with their "beliefs" regardless of any objective truth. The relevant state agencies (inlcuding a corrupt far-right pro-life state AG) crawled through Tiller's daily operations for over a decade without ever finding that he had performed a single illegal abortion, which tells fair-minded people all they need to know.

463 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:58:24pm

re: #49 Charles

If he performed late-term abortions that were "not medically necessary," he somehow tricked another doctor into signing off on them, and somehow escaped the notice of the state of Kansas in doing so -- because that would be a serious crime. Please back up that accusation with something.

Charles, George Tiller was prosecuted by Phil Kline for violations of Kansas laws regarding late term abortions and reporting of underage abortions. Tiller finanaced Paul Morrison in the AG race. Tiller provide huge sums of money to beat Kline. In essence he bought the race. Tiller also financed Sebelius through his various PACs. it got to the point he had to launder money through several PACs to avoid the blot that ProKanDo had on candidates. They couched it into terms of Kline seeking to violate patient confidentiality regarding their medical records.
Tiller bought and paid for Morrison. Morrison repaid Tiller by dumbing down the charges, intimidating potential witnesses, and making bedlam of the whole thing. Wichita's DA is also a bought and paid for hack of Tiller. Its easy to research. We who live in Kansas witnessed it worst hand during the elections.

464 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:02:37pm

re: #66 Charles

Wow. OK. So you're just repeating what you heard O'Reilly say. Did you even know that Kansas law requires two independent doctors to certify that a late term abortion is medically necessary?

Dr. Tiller was put on trial because there was an allegation that the second doctor he consulted in one case was not truly independent from him. And he was acquitted on all charges in that case. Don't you think that if there had really been cases in which he performed late term abortions without following the law, his enemies would have made sure he was prosecuted?

It was a kangaroo court, a mock trial. The bought and paid for DA and AG delivered on the money Tiller poured into their campaigns. The consulting physician was always one and the same, and she never saw a pregnancy she didn't think needed termination. When asked during grand jury questioning, she took the fifth rather then admit she was rubber stamping Tiller.

465 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:20:10pm

re: #173 Charles

That website is vile and disgusting, and I don't trust a single thing on it.

Do the math. I don't know how long Dr. Tiller was in business, but if he was doing abortions for 20 years, he would have had to do more than 8 abortions every single day, 365 days a year, in order to reach 60,000. That number is absurd. It's simple math.

Tiller performed nearly twenty late term abortions per week, and they represent, according to his site, only 16% of his business. his site is now down, so I cannot give a link that works. That would be 125 abortions a week, 25 per day, or just over three per hour. Since assistants perform much of the duties, that is not out of line. Tiller gained his reputation because he performed the most late term abortions in the nation. He was widely refered by out of state physicians. Many of his abortions were convenience abortions, and they used the mental health loophole which the legislature attempted to close. Tiller flaunted his contacts the last few years. He was in close with the governor. My son met Tiller because my exwife is friends with the governor. He found Tiller to be the most vile person he had ever met, especially since He had been recommended for termination because our Ob Gyn screwed up and might have caused fetal harm. Luckily he is alive and healthy.

466 nomra  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:46:28pm

re: #60 iceweasel

What a hypocrite.

Gingi ought to try this one out:
"I mean, I personally would not have an abortion, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else?"

Abortion is legal. Don't like it? Then don't have one.

That's a rubbish argument. It's like telling an Abolitionist "Don't like slavery, don't have a slave". The crux of the matter is whether the fetus has any kind of human rights. Obviously, if you think it has none, then it is "just a choice" -if not, it's murder. Frankly, given that these "murders" (if they are) happen multiple times a day, in many clinics, I'm surprised that there aren't more assassinations of abortionists.

The fact that it is legal is also completely irrelevant. If it were legal to take unwanted toddlers out back and shoot them, and the state had legitimized and was protecting the practice -what should we do then? Wave a picket? Write a letter? This is the problem if we assume abortion is murder because.

Like most people (I think) I'm pro-choice in the 1st trimester but I've also seen a little 23 week old in the prem ward. I think you'd also find that most people regard late term abortions as crossing the line into infanticide. I think you'll find that's why a lot of people are a little bit conflicted about Tiller's assassination. If Tiller ever performed even one abortion on an viable fetus for a shitty reason, like the mother was "depressed", then he and his killer are pretty much morally equivalent .

467 brownmear  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:55:36pm

One thing keeps repeating. If they really wanted to help children, they would adopt children. I have been around more than 50 years, I have met many people who adopted, many more that wanted to. It never happens in a year, most wait 5 to 10 years or more before they are successful.

I met someone, a good friend, that managed to adopt two girls with drug problems, (their mothers, not theirs), that is how he managed to get two babies in less than 5 years.

Have you ever really investigated whether someone wanted the babies? Or are you just repeating something you heard? Try to get in line for a baby, maybe you will learn something.

468 Fearless Fred  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:42:26am

re: #383 Salamantis

Because a lot of those hospitals (and physiciians connected with them) will not perform late term abortions, even to prevent serious and lasting injury to the woman, because they are afraid of the radical antiabortion gestapo - and with very good reason.

And babies are BORN, so Dr. Tiller is NOT a baby killing guy. Not is he creepy or a weirdo; he just forfeited his own life because he possessed too much compassion to turn away from womens' dire medical needs, even regardless of the obviously valid threat to his own life.

You, however, I find to be a sick and ghastly ghoul.

Wow. It'll take me a while to figure that out. Sorry you feel that way.

469 Fearless Fred  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 4:10:11am

re: #442 Charles

If you don't think that most women who choose to have late term abortions have already been to many doctors and gotten many opinions, and tried everything to avoid that choice, you're in a fantasy world -- a world in which you choose to believe the worst about people you don't even know.

It's not about what I believe. It was a sincere question. I thought hospitals were where you'd go for a 'medical necessity' to potentially save your life. Wouldn't the hospital bring in whatever type specialist is required - including someone like Tiller? Wouldn't a real hospital be better at this work than some little clinic like Tiller's.

470 doubter4444  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:18am

re: #463 JeremyR

Charles, George Tiller was prosecuted by Phil Kline for violations of Kansas laws regarding late term abortions and reporting of underage abortions. Tiller financed Paul Morrison in the AG race. Tiller provide huge sums of money to beat Kline. In essence he bought the race. Tiller also financed Sebelius through his various PACs. it got to the point he had to launder money through several PACs to avoid the blot that ProKanDo had on candidates. They couched it into terms of Kline seeking to violate patient confidentiality regarding their medical records.
Tiller bought and paid for Morrison. Morrison repaid Tiller by dumbing down the charges, intimidating potential witnesses, and making bedlam of the whole thing. Wichita's DA is also a bought and paid for hack of Tiller. Its easy to research. We who live in Kansas witnessed it worst hand during the elections.

Link.
Or you are full of shit.
And I suspect, that since you did not provide one when you posted, you are either repeating some "facts" you got from OR or heard in some meeting of like-minded zealots, or just made them up.
These are extraordinary charges, and if true, would put the AG in jail.
Basically, you are claiming that it's all a grand conspiracy to keep killing babies for profit.
Your lack of compassion is only exceeded by your lack of connection to reality.

471 doubter4444  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:54:16am
Like most people (I think) I'm pro-choice in the 1st trimester but I've also seen a little 23 week old in the prem ward. I think you'd also find that most people regard late term abortions as crossing the line into infanticide. I think you'll find that's why a lot of people are a little bit conflicted about Tiller's assassination. If Tiller ever performed even one abortion on an viable fetus for a shitty reason, like the mother was "depressed", then he and his killer are pretty much morally equivalent .

Again you are defining late term abortion with killing perfectly healthy fetuses.
The vast, vast majority of these cases, as illustrated on this link and others, are tragic circumstances that no one should ever go through, but do so everyday.
Do you really think women carry a baby for 8 months to simply abort it on a whim?
You know, I'll grant you there are sick people everywhere and I'm sure you would be able to fine the most heinous things happening in any area of our human existence. So I'm sure something like what I described has/will/could happen.
But that's sickest exception to what is a terrifying decision.
You cheapen the moral implications necessary to the discussion by assuming that late term abortions are "recreational", not withstanding that you would be arguing from false a premise, ignoring overwhelming evidence to the contrary (see my post above) and frankly, assigning incredibility evil motives to thousands (60,000 from the OR propaganda) of women.
I have a higher regard for people in general, and women in particular than those who drive the argument from the pro-life side, I guess.

472 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:15:13am

re: #469 Fearless Fred

It's not about what I believe. It was a sincere question. I thought hospitals were where you'd go for a 'medical necessity' to potentially save your life. Wouldn't the hospital bring in whatever type specialist is required - including someone like Tiller? Wouldn't a real hospital be better at this work than some little clinic like Tiller's.

This question was addressed in my post #393:

Because a lot of those hospitals (and physiciians connected with them) will not perform late term abortions, even to prevent serious and lasting injury to the woman, because they are afraid of the radical antiabortion gestapo - and with very good reason.

Sal: and let me add that because of the threat of such murders as that of Dr. Tiller, there are only a handful of doctors nationwide who will perform late-term necessity abortions. Quite simply, those few brave physicians can't be spending their time flying all over the US for the hundreds of late-term abortions per year per doctor that are medically necessary, and still help all the women who desperately need it. It is only by having these women themselves fly to central locations for their procedures can the deaths of many of them from lethal pregnancies be avoided.

473 KansasMom  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:58:26am

re: #472 Salamantis

This question was addressed in my post #393:

Sal: and let me add that because of the threat of such murders as that of Dr. Tiller, there are only a handful of doctors nationwide who will perform late-term necessity abortions. Quite simply, those few brave physicians can't be spending their time flying all over the US for the hundreds of late-term abortions per year per doctor that are medically necessary, and still help all the women who desperately need it. It is only by having these women themselves fly to central locations for their procedures can the deaths of many of them from lethal pregnancies be avoided.

Although I've read reports that a doctor is preparing to take over Tiller's practice next week, at the moment there is only one. That doctor is currently under protection by the US Marshals.

474 Tully  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:51:53pm

It was a kangaroo court, a mock trial. The bought and paid for DA and AG delivered on the money Tiller poured into their campaigns.

Bullshit. Etc., ad nauseum. When the far right get their butts repeatedly handed to them in court, it's always because the system is corrupt, not because they were trying to force their religious beliefs into the legal system by persecuting their perceived enemies. If they get their butts handed to them in open elections (as Kline did, going down about 60/40 to Morrison) it's because the elections were bought, not because the voters caught on they were extremist wingers, got sick and tired of their wingnuttery superseding and overriding their public duties, and turned back to the center. Always the denial that the people of Kansas on the whole are in fact simply tired of the screechy preachy far-righters who keep trying to run the state like an arm of the church.

And yes, Thomas Franks is just as guilty of pulling that shtick from the left as others do from the right.

This in one of the reddest states in the nation. Nope, jeremy, Tiller was acquitted after years of Kline's persecutions (charges tossed out immediately by the first judge to see them) and TWO grand juries that refused to indict, and Morrison's subsequent filing of technical misdemeanor charges after Morrison's mistress (another ardent pro-lifer) blackmailed him into filing, because he was INNOCENT OF THE CHARGES. That was the finding of fact by the jury, which took just a little over an hour to acquit, which time included their lunch break. (When Morrison dumped his mistress to stay with his wife the mistress went public, forcing Morrison's resignation as AG.)

Morrison overwhelmingly beat Kline because the people of Kansas, while largely Republican, are not even remotely all extremist social-issue Republicans and were heartily sick of the far-right wingnuttery of Phill Kline. Such as his attempts to force doctors and other professionals (including teachers) to report ALL sexual activity by minors as child abuse or statutory rape (said law later permanently enjoined from enforcement by the US Courts--and one that would've made my own high school years --and that of most other kids -- major felonious crime waves). And his fervent support for much higher penalties for homosexuals in sex cases. And his questionable attempts to use churches for campaign recruiting and endorsements. And so on.

Amusingly, when Kline was defeated he took over Morrison's old job as Johnson County DA, being appointed to fill the Morrison vacancy by the county precinct people. Which so annoyed even the conservative rank & file JoCo Republicans that Kline's ass got handed to him 60/40 once again in the election. He then left Kansas to go teach at Jerry Falwell's Liberty University.

475 doubter4444  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 12:39:00pm

re: #474 Tully

I know this thread is dead, but great post.
Thanks!

476 JeremyR  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 6:46:08am

re: #470 doubter4444

Most of it I got from reading the Topeka Capital Journal. [Link: www.dr-tiller.com...] pretty well sums it up. He has it all condensed. Of course, Charles has labeled it a hate site, but it has all the links you need to relevant news articles and state records to put it all together. When I first encountered the site, which was the day tiller was killed, I at first thought it was a pro Tiller site because of where I linked in. In spite of Charles opinion, I think it is a very level study of Tiller by some one who is not pro abortion.
Here is one more for you. They are an anti bad government site from what I have read more then an anti abortion site. They detail in other places stuff about Sebelius.
Jack Cashill has also done an excellent job of covering the Tiller Sebelius Morrison boondoggle.
The Wichita Eagle Beacon, the Lawrence Journal World, and CJonline are all liberal leaning sites. They all have stuff about Tiller, which when you rationally put it all together paints IMHO a clear picture of how each of the players worked to support Tiller.
Sorry for so late in checking back.

477 JeremyR  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 9:30:22am

Here is a quick refrence regarding Tiller and his supposed necessary to preserve the life of the mother abortions. He performed an abortion prior to consent on an unwilling juvenile, listed the reason as unviable when it was in fact a convenience abortion.
Another, here

478 JeremyR  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 10:03:32am

One more here


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