Anti-Abortion Leader Apologizes for ‘Sowing Hate’

US News • Views: 2,515

Former radical anti-abortionist Frank Schaeffer apologizes for his extreme rhetoric and calls out the anti-abortion movement: We who sowed hate share blame in killing of abortion doctor.

I don’t agree with everything he writes in his piece, but the conclusion is right on target:

The same hate machine I was part of is still attacking all abortionists as “murderers.” And today, once again, the “pro-life” leaders are busy ducking their personal responsibility for people acting on their words.

The people who stir up the fringe never take responsibility. But I’d like to say that I, and the people I worked with in the pro-life movement, all contributed to this killing by our foolish and incendiary words.

I am very sorry.

Jump to bottom

188 comments
1 zombie  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:28:00pm

Well, that’s a change of pace.

2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:28:13pm

Damn, sanity prevails.

3 kiwiviv  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:28:19pm

Good for him

4 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:28:23pm

Everyone -

MURDER is MURDER - That is all.

-S-

5 zombie  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:28:40pm
The people who stir up the fringe never take responsibility.

That’s true on all sides of the political spectrum.

6 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:29:54pm

re: #5 zombie

That’s true on all sides of the political spectrum.

And religious spectrum. That’s the kind of statement I would like to hear from a lot of major conservatives, er, like, let’s see, Rush Limbaugh (fat chance).

7 doppelganglander  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:29:59pm

People really can change. I imagine he’ll be getting hate mail and threats over this.

8 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:30:25pm
9 DEZes  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:30:51pm

re: #7 doppelganglander

People really can change. I imagine he’ll be getting hate mail and threats over this.

So will Charles.

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:32:09pm

I saw this piece yesterday. I’m curious, does he still consider himself anti-abortion?

11 screaming_eagle  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:32:58pm

re: #9 DEZes

So will Charles.

Charles would get hate-mail for posting that the sun rose this morning.

12 kiwiviv  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:33:32pm

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

I saw this piece yesterday. I’m curious, does he still consider himself anti-abortion?

He believes that abortion should be legal, but regulated - that Roe v Wade went to far, too fast

13 Mr. Paul  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:33:35pm

To be pro life means pro life. No murder, no death penalty no euthanasia.

14 drogheda  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:33:39pm

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

I saw this piece yesterday. I’m curious, does he still consider himself anti-abortion?

No. But he does think some changes need to be made.

15 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:34:08pm
16 Rexatosis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:35:24pm

Unfortunately shrill viseral diatribes make the evening or morning news rather than reasoned debate. Thus the passions of the extremes are stoked while the interest of the vast center wanes and tunes out on the issues of the day.

17 DEZes  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:36:43pm

Lizards, things must be done.
Have a great one.

18 Sydney Carton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:37:13pm

re: #12 kiwiviv

He’s pro-choice. He is no longer pro-life. Thus, it is inaccurate to say that he’s an “anti-abortion leader”, at least currently.

19 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:37:30pm

re: #11 screaming_eagle

Charles would get hate-mail for posting that the sun rose this morning.

It would go like this:

Oh, so the sun’s coming up, eh Chuckie? You think you can divert attention from your Stalin-like suppression of free speech by telling your sycophantic ass-licking followers about a f-cking sunrise, eh? You’re not fooling me one bit, or anybody else who’s on to your shi-t! F-ck you!

20 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:38:17pm

re: #18 Sydney Carton

He’s pro-choice. He is no longer pro-life. Thus, it is inaccurate to say that he’s an “anti-abortion leader”, at least currently.

Thats why the first sentence says:

Former radical anti-abortionist…

21 srb1976  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:38:51pm

Evenin’ folks…

Nice to see that once in a great while sanity prevails……

22 doppelganglander  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:38:57pm

re: #9 DEZes

So will Charles.

No kidding.

I read this article yesterday but I really didn’t pay attention to the author’s name. I just realized Frank Schaeffer is the son of Francis Schaeffer. I read “How Should We Then Live?” and watched the video series when I first started attending an evangelical church. I knew people who had been to L’Abri. I liked the book at the time and he was much admired by people I respect, but I think I need to seriously re-evaluate his work.

23 Clemente  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:39:39pm

re: #11 screaming_eagle

Charles would get hate-mail for posting that the sun rose this morning.

If Charles can’t find the decency to denounce sunrises this instant, then he can just go ahead and delete my acc…

…

…

/flounce!

24 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:39:44pm

re: #19 Charles

Your detractors have no imagination, thank G-d.

25 Sydney Carton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:39:50pm

re: #13 Mr. Paul

To be pro life means pro life. No murder, no death penalty no euthanasia.

Many pro-lifers are also in favor, at least in theory, of the death penalty. I support the use of the death penalty for murder and other heinous crimes. I also consider myself pro-life, in that I’d like abortion to be illegal, in all 50 states.

26 kiwiviv  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:40:12pm

re: #18 Sydney Carton

He’s pro-choice. He is no longer pro-life. Thus, it is inaccurate to say that he’s an “anti-abortion leader”, at least currently.

I didn’t think I said he was pro-life…did I?

27 iceman1960  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:40:21pm

Now if folks like Keith Olbermann or the clowns at KOS could put out the same statement for the Williams murder.

“The same hate machine I was part of is still attacking all soldiers as “murderers.” And today, once again, the “anti-military” leaders are busy ducking their personal responsibility for people acting on their words.

The people who stir up the fringe never take responsibility. But I’d like to say that I, and the people I worked with in the anti-military movement, all contributed to this killing by our foolish and incendiary words.

I am very sorry.”

Wouldn’t the world be a better place?

28 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:40:32pm

re: #25 Sydney Carton

Many pro-lifers are also in favor, at least in theory, of the death penalty. I support the use of the death penalty for murder and other heinous crimes. I also consider myself pro-life, in that I’d like abortion to be illegal, in all 50 states.

Even if the mothers life is in medical danger?

29 freetoken  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:40:48pm

Frank Schaeffer has changed his tune on many things over the years. When he was young it was clear that his father’s standing directly influenced him. Frank turned out to be a bit of a rebel quiet some years ago. In these latter years Schaeffer has turned out to hold many positions that, to put it mildly, many lizards would find offensive.

30 Sydney Carton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:41:29pm

re: #20 Charles


Thats why the first sentence says:

Former radical anti-abortionist…

Yeah, the initial title confused me at first.

31 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:41:54pm

re: #27 iceman1960

Now if folks like Keith Olbermann or the clowns at KOS could put out the same statement for the Williams murder.

“The same hate machine I was part of is still attacking all soldiers as “murderers.” And today, once again, the “anti-military” leaders are busy ducking their personal responsibility for people acting on their words.

The people who stir up the fringe never take responsibility. But I’d like to say that I, and the people I worked with in the anti-military movement, all contributed to this killing by our foolish and incendiary words.

I am very sorry.”

Wouldn’t the world be a better place?

I would like to hear Rush Limbaugh make ANY statement on the Tiller murder, pro/con or otherwise. He hasn’t said anything about it.

32 freetoken  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:42:54pm

Might as well embed the Maddow interview:

Youtube Video
33 Clemente  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:43:02pm

Dang! I forgot to include the vulgarities and misspellings. Not gonna fool anyone if I overlook the details.

34 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:43:05pm

re: #19 Charles

And this one is going to have them saying that all your hate mail is false flag operations for pity.

BTW, you really do seem to have the flow of it down pretty well. I’ll bet you could put together a pretty convincing Nigerian 419 email too.

35 harry91  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:44:16pm
I saw this piece yesterday. I’m curious, does he still consider himself anti-abortion?

I think the majority of people are against aboirtion but understand that sometimes things happen.

No one is pro-abortion (except the real loonies) and no one is toally anti-abortion (except the loonies)


Education is the key.

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:44:53pm

re: #12 kiwiviv

He believes that abortion should be legal, but regulated - that Roe v Wade went to far, too fast

I wonder how relevent his opinion is to people still in the movement then, although I think it’s a good piece.

37 pink freud  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:45:24pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I have seen a historical aversion here in your posts regarding anything “Rush”. Why, if nothing in his past seems to have had any credibility with you, would a statement on Tiller now have any meaning one way or the other?

38 kiwiviv  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:46:59pm

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

I wonder how relevent his opinion is to people still in the movement then, although I think it’s a good piece.

Are you referring to people in the pro-life movement, or the pro-choice movement?

39 realwest  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:47:44pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton
I would too Walter, but ya gotta admit that the coverage of the murder of one soldier and the shooting of another has received scant media attention. See the story and link I posted in the prior thread’s spin off links.
And as many listeners as Rush has, I don’t know that he’s ever professed to be a media REPORTER - and the MSM in the Soldiers’ murder and shooting has done a miserable job in covering that story.

41 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:49:51pm

And sure enough, here’s a massive wall of text I received just this morning from a person who was banned for posting a rant about how I “hate Christians”…

I just read one of your typical hypocritcal blog entries where you
derided someone for accusing you of banning people who disagree with
you. Well guess what, I was one of those people who experienced itself.
So it’s certainly true that you do indeed do that regardless of how much
you want to deny it. While I appreciate your blogging on the dangers of
islamists and for expressing your point of view that’s about where my
respect for your blog ends. Because frankly you seem to run your blog
like an arrogent self-imporant soup Nazi and a lot of your commenters
are also huge assholes. I used to follow your blog pretty much daily
several months ago for maybe a few weeks. And I noticed that you
suddenly started posting tons of annoying evolution vs creationism BS
and you did it in what seems to be a usually snotty hostile tone towards
creationists and supporters of intelligent design. And even more
hilariously and very tellingly it seems you scoffed at critics leaving
comments who were saying the subject was getting old and that they were
getting sick of reading about the topic on your blog constantly. You
blogged that their assertion that you were basically spamming your blog
on this issue was absurd. And as readers of your blog read that line
dismissing the critics all they had to do was scroll down and see the
evolution vs creation blog entries taking up almost the entire page. It
still makes me laugh. That was one of the most blatantly hypocritical
thing I’ve ever seen in my life. Anyway, I joined in on the suggestions
that you lay off on that topic just a tad and I left a few comments at
most expressing my dislike for your creation vs evolution blog entries.
And I essentially wrote that it was immature and mean of you to go after
devout Christians who supported creationism and intelligent design. And
I even mentioned that I personally believed in evolutionary biology as
well but simply didn’t care for your zealotry in going after those
people with a sledge hammer. And what happened next? First of all your
equally arrogent snotty ballhugger “regulars” and LFG “veterans” who
troll your comments constantly it seems told me they’d “give me a
temporary pass” because I “seemed to be new around these parts”. And
then they went on to respond to my comments as if I was a creationist or
a fundamentalist Christian when I’m neither. And they talked down to me
as if they knew more about the topic than I do when they probably don’t.
And then to top it off you BANNED me from commenting on your blog even
though I never wrote anything remotely “fringe” or whatever BS you want
to make up as an excuse to take away the “privledge” of leaving comments
on your blog. Literally all I did was simply disagree with your
relentless assualts on proponents of creationism and ID’ers and you
banned me. And it’s not like I was spamming your blog. I left like maybe
4 or 5 comments tops and not all in the same blog entry or the same day.
And then what did you do next to further display your asshattery? You
freaking accused me of “pretending” to be a “believer” in evolutionary
biology while I “really secretly” believed in intelligent design and
creationism and was one of those “evil” social conservatives you seem to
hate so much. None of which is true. So good job buddy. Way to act like
an ideological facist while pretending to be above it all. You might
want to do some introspection on why you feel the need to ban and insult
people who leave comments on your site that you don’t agree with.
Because it definitely isn’t a healthy thing for yourself personally or
your blog. And please do post my entire “typical crazy troll rant” on
your blog because I’ll get a kick out of it since you’ll only be making
my point. And if you want to look up my screenname and comment history
on your blog my name was something like …

42 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:50:04pm

re: #39 realwest

Good evening Realwest! Who do you have? The Lakers or the Magic?

43 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:50:07pm

I checked out the pro-life, pregnancy-crisis organization that I have donated to. According to their website, they don’t do politics, just counseling, ultrasounds, and assistance.

That’s a relief. Seriously.

44 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:50:17pm

We have 10 times more columns and then comments about the abortion doctors than the wacko Islamics who shot at the military guys. Let me get this straight? It is more important to discuss the murder of some guy who made money in doing abortion’s than it is to talk about more acts of violence by Muslims. Does anyone else notice what someone is becoming? Or do I have to take the cool-aid? Those three jets (the fourth one did not make it) who bombed the abortion office worry us now. I fear for the next time.

45 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:50:38pm
46 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:50:43pm

Too long to post the whole thing in one comment. It continues like that for another 100 words or so…

47 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:51:43pm

re: #46 Charles

Too long to post the whole thing in one comment. It continues like that for another 100 words or so…

Tedious at half the length.

48 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:51:55pm

re: #46 Charles

Too long to post the whole thing in one comment. It continues like that for another 100 words or so…

Drugs will do that.

49 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:52:13pm

re: #37 pink freud

Walter, I have seen a historical aversion here in your posts regarding anything “Rush”. Why, if nothing in his past seems to have had any credibility with you, would a statement on Tiller now have any meaning one way or the other?

It has nothing to do with credibility, it has ALL to do with his position. He is a major voice of conservatives. On any given day, you can go to many forums and blogs, and you will hear/read “Rush this and Rush that.” If you work in any place that has at least some conservatives in it, you will hear “Rush this and Rush that.” And if you listen to the MSM, you will hear/watch “Rush this and Rush that.”

He himself claims to be the spokesman for the GOP, and that he is “deflecting” all criticism for the GOP.

So, it seems to me that if he made a comment on this, condemning this vile act, killing this doctor in church no less, it would do a lot to dispel some of what is being said about pro-lifers.

My like or dislike of him has nothing to do with my questions or concerns about his lack of “interest” in this topic. But it does have everything to do with how pro-lifers are looked at, certainly after this recent incident.

Wouldn’t you like to hear him make a statement?

50 realwest  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:53:47pm

re: #42 HoosierHoops The Knicks …………………….with 25 points how could I not take that bet?!
:)

51 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:53:48pm

re: #44 hous bin pharteen

Does anyone else notice what someone is becoming?

Come on and say it outright. You know you wanna.

52 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:54:52pm
53 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:54:57pm

re: #29 freetoken

Frank Schaeffer has changed his tune on many things over the years. When he was young it was clear that his father’s standing directly influenced him. Frank turned out to be a bit of a rebel quiet some years ago. In these latter years Schaeffer has turned out to hold many positions that, to put it mildly, many lizards would find offensive.

I’ll say. After reading the linked article, I’d think he was a card carrying liberal, possibly of the moonbat variety, but he did make a number of good and rational points. The sincere sounding apology was for his actions and his actions alone, not one of those liberal hallmarks of apologizing for the actions of some group they belong to.

54 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:55:36pm

re: #44 hous bin pharteen

If you have something to say, spit it out.

55 pink freud  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:55:49pm

re: #49 Walter L. Newton

I’m neutral as to whether or not Rush makes a statement on this issue. But then, I don’t consider him to be the voice of conservatism. I’ve always thought that label to be a bit comical.

56 doppelganglander  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:56:05pm

re: #41 Charles


And please do post my entire “typical crazy troll rant” on
your blog because I’ll get a kick out of it since you’ll only be making
my point.

Whoops! Someone’s a celebrity troll now!

57 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:56:59pm

If I have to explain it, people are not paying attention.

58 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:57:35pm
59 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:58:05pm

re: #50 realwest

The Knicks …………………….with 25 points how could I not take that bet?!
:)

Hey Buddy! I’m hoping for once in my life that the Lakers get their ass kicked..
I don’t ask for much from God..Just that the Lakers lose big time…
/I’m teasing you…Hope today finds you well

60 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:58:08pm

Glad to see my local police are on the ball:

2 Arrested in Fatal [Lakewood, WA] Wal-Mart Robbery
Wednesday, June 03, 2009
Associated Press

LAKEWOOD, Wash. — Two people were arrested in the investigation of the fatal shooting of an armored car guard during a robbery at a Wal-Mart store, police said Wednesday.

Lakewood police provided few details, including whether those arrested were the two men sought in the Tuesday afternoon robbery and shooting. Lt. Heidi Hoffman said in a brief news release that more arrests were anticipated.

Officers from multiple police agencies and the FBI were hunting for two men in their 20s in the fatal shooting of the guard and the wounding of a bystander during the robbery in this suburb south of Tacoma.

A single bullet killed the guard and wounded the male customer, Hoffman said earlier.

61 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:58:38pm

re: #55 pink freud

I’m neutral as to whether or not Rush makes a statement on this issue. But then, I don’t consider him to be the voice of conservatism. I’ve always thought that label to be a bit comical.

And yes, if you want to consider my “question” about Rush, and way he hasn’t made a statement in regards to this murder as sarcastic, then, bingo, you win. Yes I am being sarcastic, and I will continue to hound these hypocritical “conservatives.”

62 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:59:05pm

re: #56 doppelganglander

Whoops! Someone’s a celebrity troll now!

Nah. When someone sends me an email like that I just block their IP so they can’t get into the site and use the contact form any more. I have better things to do than delete their crap out of my Inbox.

63 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:59:37pm

re: #60 FurryOldGuyJeans

Glad to see my local police are on the ball:

2 Arrested in Fatal [Lakewood, WA] Wal-Mart Robbery
Wednesday, June 03, 2009
Associated Press

Wow, you live in Lakewood, Wa. I use to live near Lakewood, New Jersey, and I now live near Lakewood Colorado. What a coincidence.
/

64 realwest  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:59:45pm

re: #55 pink freud Hi pink freud! I wish I had saved it, but Rasmussen did a poll back when Obama was zinging Rush (fair play) and found 11% of Republicans think Rush is a Republican “leader”. But I think Walter’s comment is still correct - even if Rush isn’t a leader of the Republicans - but I still say that Rush is not now, nor to my knowledge has he ever pretended to be, a reporter. He is, at BEST, an entertainer.
I’d sure like to see the MSM give better coverage - or more than a days worth, anyway, to the murder of one soldier and the shooting of another by that Islamic Convert.

65 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 4:59:47pm

re: #57 hous bin pharteen

If I have to explain it, people are not paying attention.

I don’t understand. What are you talking about? Please explain.

66 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:00:32pm

re: #65 Charles

I don’t understand. What are you talking about? Please explain.

I want him to explain too. Maybe I am being dense, but I’m confused.

67 realwest  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:00:34pm

re: #59 HoosierHoops
Why thank you Hoops - I’ve been worried about you - because of your friends tragic death - most of the day.

68 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:00:41pm

re: #59 HoosierHoops

Hey Buddy! I’m hoping for once in my life that the Lakers get their ass kicked..
I don’t ask for much from God..Just that the Lakers lose big time…
/I’m teasing you…Hope today finds you well


I’m rooting for Orlando

69 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:00:45pm

…………..and if no one understands that, they aren’t going to.

70 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:01:13pm

Thank you for posting this, Charles.

71 callahan23  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:01:25pm

re: #41 Charles

And that guy is not happy with heaping insult on Charles but goes on insulting us Lizards:

… lot of your commenters are also huge assholes.

What a piece of … it is.

72 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:01:30pm

re: #57 hous bin pharteen

If I have to explain it, people are not paying attention.

Then please make me pay attention by explaining yourself. I really do want to hear what you have to say.

73 freetoken  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:01:46pm

re: #44 hous bin pharteen

We have 10 times more columns and then comments about the abortion doctors than the wacko Islamics who shot at the military guys.

Of course, as it ought to be. 40,000,000 of your fellow Americans have been slaughtered by abortionists, while only a few thousand by Islamic radicals.

/JUST trying on a new ideology for size…

74 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:02:00pm

OK, I had to go get dinner for the kids but I did want to respond to some a few threads down who said I was “talking out of my ass” about PP getting taxpayer funds. This document is from the GAO and is a few years old but I think we all know that govt. programs are rarely cut and usually increased. It shows over $161M of federal funds alone for PP in FY2001.

I am totally on board with calling this murderer what he is and I understand the issues are complicated on both sides but a few posters pretty much said I was lying and I wanted to clear that up.

75 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:02:03pm

re: #69 hous bin pharteen

…………..and if no one understands that, they aren’t going to.

Taking cryptic lessons from the Vorlons again?

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:02:46pm

re: #38 kiwiviv

Are you referring to people in the pro-life movement, or the pro-choice movement?

The pro-life movement, from whence the author sprang.

77 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:02:54pm

re: #41 Charles

No Soup!

78 quickjustice  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:03:00pm

I’m pro-life, but I don’t think abortion is murder. It’s the doctrinal position of the Roman Catholic Church that “abortion is murder” that drives much of the extremist emotion. Under U.S. law, abortion NEVER has been murder.

79 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:03:55pm
80 KingKenrod  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:03:55pm

Heh - I just saw tape of Obama bowing to receive a medal from the Saudi Guido Sarducci. They must hand those medals out like bubblegum to all the infidels.

81 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:04:41pm

re: #79 buzzsawmonkey

“Outlook cloudy. Ask again later.”

—Magic 8-ball

They still sell those?

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:04:44pm

re: #43 EmmmieG

I checked out the pro-life, pregnancy-crisis organization that I have donated to. According to their website, they don’t do politics, just counseling, ultrasounds, and assistance.

That’s a relief. Seriously.

I love it when people I’ve given money to turn out to be OK.

83 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:05:11pm
84 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:06:12pm
85 jcm  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:06:17pm

re: #83 buzzsawmonkey

They aren’t giving them away.

Only to well behaved lackeys.

86 justdanny  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:06:18pm

Charles, Are you becoming a ham sandwich?

87 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:06:29pm

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

You know what is cool Walter? And I applaud the Lizards..Thank you.
Last weekend I posted why I do not like Rush.. My personal experience..My beefs with him..
Not one person down dinged me..We may not agree..But we can be civil about it.. Too Bad people don’t give Charles the benefit of the doubt..
Fuckers will not give him the benefit for any reason….We all get personal feelings and opinions on the web..Everybody but Charles..He just gets Shit..

88 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:06:37pm

re: #71 callahan23

And that guy is not happy with heaping insult on Charles but goes on insulting us Lizards:

What a piece of … it is.

That’s a standard feature of LGF hate mail. Installed at the factory. No extra charge.

89 WayDownSouthInBama  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:06:43pm

Why is calling a murderer a murderer hate but the murderer killing a baby is not hate? I can’t imagine anything more hateful than killing a Mother’s child for money. I don’t hate the people who perform abortions,but I’m not going to deny the results of their actions for the sake of political correctness either.

90 quickjustice  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:07:07pm

re: #86 justdanny

Trafe central.

91 pink freud  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:07:24pm

re: #80 KingKenrod

Heh - I just saw tape of Obama bowing to receive a medal from the Saudi Guido Sarducci. They must hand those medals out like bubblegum to all the infidels.

That bowing stuff seems to be becoming more popular these days.

Brain Williams bowing goodnight to 0bama.

Youtube Video
92 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:07:40pm

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

There’s a “Magic 8-Ball” website where you can consult the Magic 8-Ball without leaving your keyboard.

I should use that for my stock account.

93 irongrampa  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:07:42pm

Never posted on abortion before.

Suppose you could say I’m pro-choice, since I don’t feel that it’s proper to arbitrarily decide for any woman, what they choose to do with their body.
I understand the medical aspects of abortion, but the idea of abortion for convenience sake is totally abhorrent to me. And I suspect that’s a common opinion. I further think that the arguments against , with all the back and forth about timeline and viability, stem from a natural repugnance about extinguishing a life.

Just my 2 cents, fwiw.

94 VegasRick  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:07:53pm

re: #69 hous bin pharteen

…………..and if no one understands that, they aren’t going to.

Bro, just explain yourself. Why the mystery?

95 jcm  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:08:10pm

re: #41 Charles

Eyes…… glaze….. over………

96 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:08:29pm

re: #83 buzzsawmonkey

They aren’t giving them away.

Just don’t ask about the Affirmation Ball!

97 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:08:35pm
98 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:00pm

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

There’s a “Magic 8-Ball” website where you can consult the Magic 8-Ball without leaving your keyboard.

I have a real one, Mattel, with in arms reach, use it all the time. Got to go to the bathroom, consult the 8 ball.

99 doppelganglander  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:19pm

re: #94 VegasRick

Bro, just explain yourself. Why the mystery?


Because it’s more exciting to be tragically misunderstood?

/emo

100 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:22pm

re: #80 KingKenrod

Heh - I just saw tape of Obama bowing to receive a medal from the Saudi Guido Sarducci. They must hand those medals out like bubblegum to all the infidels.

He was NOT bowing! He was receiving a medal! Can’t you tell the difference?

/dripping sarcasm

101 quickjustice  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:29pm

re: #89 WayDownSouthInBama

I’m pro-life. I think it would be better if abortions never happened. I just don’t think abortion is murder. Let ask you a simple question: Do Christians celebrate the birth of Christ, or the conception of Christ?

102 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:33pm
103 Pythagoras  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:33pm

re: #28 Walter L. Newton

Even if the mothers life is in medical danger?

Your question is a good one as it highlights a problem with typical abortion discussions.

The most common form of pregnancy where the mother’s life is in danger is an ectopic pregnancy, where the egg has implanted outside the uterus (usually in a fallopian tube — hence the more common name “tubal pregnancy”). These pregnancies are terminated in every hospital I know of, including Catholic hospitals. Such procedures are not even always thought of as abortions and are definitely not performed by typical abortionists.

Thus, there is a lot of confusion over what is and isn’t an abortion and how to word related laws.

104 jcm  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:34pm

re: #96 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just don’t ask about the Affirmation Ball!

Ahhh, the key to Obama’s self esteem reveled!

105 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:35pm

[Link: cfc.katv.com…]

106 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:09:46pm

re: #89 WayDownSouthInBama

It isn’t murder for the simple fact that the SCOTUS has said it isn’t. Abortion is legal, murder isn’t.

107 brookly red  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:10:09pm

re: #97 buzzsawmonkey

Makes sense, since the Magic 8-Ball gives stock answers.

& no commissions…

108 justdanny  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:10:19pm

re: #90 quickjustice

Oops,

Charles, are you becoming a nice dill pickle? (like one I might eat with my ham sandwich)

;)

109 KingKenrod  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:10:26pm

re: #80 KingKenrod

Heh - I just saw tape of Obama bowing to receive a medal from the Saudi Guido Sarducci. They must hand those medals out like bubblegum to all the infidels.

Here we go:

Youtube Video

I’ll grant Obama this - it’s the “minimum” possible bow without getting a stepstool for Guido.

110 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:10:41pm

re: #101 quickjustice

I’m pro-life. I think it would be better if abortions never happened. I just don’t think abortion is murder. Let ask you a simple question: Do Christians celebrate the birth of Christ, or the conception of Christ?

Well, Catholic celebrate both, about 9 month apart.

111 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:10:43pm

this is good news.

also, way to go new hampshire

112 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:10:47pm
113 Sydney Carton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:10:49pm

re: #44 hous bin pharteen

We have 10 times more columns and then comments about the abortion doctors than the wacko Islamics who shot at the military guys. Let me get this straight? It is more important to discuss the murder of some guy who made money in doing abortion’s than it is to talk about more acts of violence by Muslims.

The MSM will focus on Tiller because he was a celebrity and because he was in the news recently relating to the appointment of the Kansas Governor as part of Obama’s cabinet. The Islamic guy who shot the soldiers is an important story, but the soldier is not a celebrity. Plus, the MSM is generally liberal and thus pro-choice, and will use this as an opportunity to slam the recent tide of people saying they’re more pro-life than pro-choice.

You have to expect this kind of bias. What will complaining about it do, anyway? Who cares if the MSM says that all pro-lifers are corrupt murderering fanatics who can’t wait to blow up all abortionists?

If you’re worried about being smeared as some radical person just because you’re pro-life, don’t worry about it. Actions always speak louder than words, and the MSM can’t stop the March for Life that happens every year without incident. Also, after a similar murder of an abortionist that happened in 1998 didn’t really affect the levels of support for the pro-life or pro-choice position at all. It certainly didn’t matter enough to affect things where today the majority of the country is pro-life. So don’t worry about the MSM trying to smear you as a radical just because you’re pro-life, or anything like that. It won’t matter at all.

114 freetoken  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:11:03pm

re: #80 KingKenrod

The blogosphere is a vibrating with the Obama-bowed tune still in full play (see Malkin’s use of the picture form the previous trip, today), the sekrit-Muslim theme never has gone away (a tune wafting out of this morning’s thread too), and of course the lasted supposed gaff - Muslim-nation.

ODS is as real as BDS.

115 realwest  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:11:08pm

re: #71 callahan23
Hey my friend - stick around, I have no doubt Charles will be getting more hate mail from deranged looney-tunes over this thread! (with us being insulted as well, as Charles said “factory installed, no extra charge.”).

116 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:11:58pm

re: #41 Charles

And sure enough, here’s a massive wall of text I received just this morning from a person who was banned for posting a rant about how I “hate Christians”…

He has managed to capture the breathlessness with which he wrote it. I felt like I needed to catch my breath about halfway through.

And the least he could have done was acknowledge that I was the one that thought he “seemed to be new around these parts.” IIRC, he said something rude to Mandy, or tried to take her to task for something.

117 freetoken  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:12:25pm

re: #114 freetoken

My typing fingers seem confused… time for more chocolate.

118 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:12:41pm

re: #41 Charles

“arrogent self-imporant soup Nazi”

Lawdy…lawdy….

Emailer desperately needs spell-check, a clue-bat and a plastic surgeon to repair the disjointed nose.

/what in the world is a ‘soup Nazi’ anyway?

119 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:13:35pm

re: #102 buzzsawmonkey

That’s a little…overly cheerful for me. I’m more a Happy Fun Ball kind of guy.

You up for the Sarcastic Ball then?

120 justdanny  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:14:34pm

Heir mein Pickle!

121 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:14:34pm

re: #105 hous bin pharteen

[Link: cfc.katv.com…]

That’s pretty moving

122 jcm  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:14:44pm

re: #118 rightymouse

“arrogent self-imporant soup Nazi”

Lawdy…lawdy….

Emailer desperately needs spell-check, a clue-bat and a plastic surgeon to repair the disjointed nose.

/what in the world is a ‘soup Nazi’ anyway?

Seinfeld…

Youtube Video
123 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:14:59pm

re: #113 Sydney Carton

Sydney, can you answer my re: #28 Walter L. Newton which I asked you a while ago?

124 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:15:12pm

re: #118 rightymouse

“arrogent self-imporant soup Nazi”

Lawdy…lawdy….

Emailer desperately needs spell-check, a clue-bat and a plastic surgeon to repair the disjointed nose.

/what in the world is a ‘soup Nazi’ anyway?

You have never heard of Seinfeld?!? Even I, who never watched the show, know about the Soup Nazi!

125 quickjustice  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:15:13pm

re: #106 FurryOldGuyJeans

Abortion isn’t murder, because it never has been murder in England or the U.S.

Technical names for the crime of abortion: “procuring an abortion”; “criminal operation”; “criminal miscarriage”; “procuring miscarriage”.

126 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:16:01pm

re: #122 jcm

Seinfeld…


Never watched the show.

127 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:16:33pm

re: #44 hous bin pharteen

Does anyone else notice what someone is becoming?


I skimmed the thread, did we get an explanation? Judging from the dings I’m guessing it’s not good.

128 realwest  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:16:38pm

re: #113 Sydney Carton
Hi Syndey! Long time no see (well, unless you move to N.C. then I reckon it’ll be a LOT longer before we see each other again!).
And I have to confess; if not for Charles and the MSM, I would never have heard of Dr. Tiller. Seriously - I don’t follow the abortion/por-life movements very much.
But be honest - you really can’t expect the MSM to cover the killing of a US Soldier , and the wounding of another on American soil for more than a day or so. Cause they don’t care about it.

129 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:17:38pm

re: #118 rightymouse

Seinfeld

Youtube Video
130 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:17:50pm

re: #124 FurryOldGuyJeans

You have never heard of Seinfeld?!? Even I, who never watched the show, know about the Soup Nazi!

Like I said in #126. Never watched the show.

Don’t watch pro-wrestling or Fox news either.

131 realwest  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:18:21pm

Woops, mom just called “dinner” so I gotta run y’all.
Hope I get the chance to see you all down the road.

132 Sydney Carton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:19:42pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton


Sydney, can you answer my re: #28 Walter L. Newton which I asked you a while ago?

Sure. The short answer is: I think that abortion as an end should never be permitted, nor as a means unless the end is absolutely, 100% justified. Medically necessary can’t mean some kind of B.S. mental health exception, which Tiller was famous for. It’s gotta mean something very serious to bodily harm like the imminent death of the mother. Otherwise, I’m against it. Hope that answers your question.

133 quickjustice  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:20:35pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

It’s on the Catholic calendar, Walter, but I don’t think it’s widely celebrated. Not being Catholic, however, I could be wrong.

134 justdanny  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:21:59pm

Charles, okay, for the benefit of the entire lizard nation and all of its stalkers and haters and hangers on, I ask you in plain english,

Are you becoming death, the destroyer of worlds?

135 Sydney Carton  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:22:09pm

re: #128 realwest

Hi Syndey! Long time no see (well, unless you move to N.C. then I reckon it’ll be a LOT longer before we see each other again!).
And I have to confess; if not for Charles and the MSM, I would never have heard of Dr. Tiller. Seriously - I don’t follow the abortion/por-life movements very much.
But be honest - you really can’t expect the MSM to cover the killing of a US Soldier , and the wounding of another on American soil for more than a day or so. Cause they don’t care about it.

Hi realwest! I’m still in NYC, working my butt off. You make a good point, though. Lots of people aren’t even aware of either of these stories at all. And I agree with you, the MSM won’t talk about the solder much, if at all. Thats what I was trying to say.

136 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:22:55pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

I skimmed the thread, did we get an explanation? Judging from the dings I’m guessing it’s not good.

No, he apparently didn’t want to elaborate.

137 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:23:18pm

re: #129 Thanos

Seinfeld

That was supposed to be funny?

138 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:23:19pm

re: #134 justdanny

Charles, okay, for the benefit of the entire lizard nation and all of its stalkers and haters and hangers on, I ask you in plain english,

Are you becoming death, the destroyer of worlds?

No soup for you!

139 callahan23  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:24:06pm

re: #115 realwest

Hey my friend - stick around, I have no doubt Charles will be getting more hate mail from deranged looney-tunes over this thread! (with us being insulted as well, as Charles said “factory installed, no extra charge.”).

(Realwest) I will stick around and no hatred will get me away from Lizardia.
I am certain we Lizards can take that little abuse that permeates through to us.
It is just mind boggling what kind of insult Charles has to endure on a daily basis.
Kudos Charles and thank you a million.

140 rightymouse  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:24:48pm

Off now.

It’s couchular time.

141 jamgarr  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:26:26pm

re: #101 quickjustice

I’m pro-life. I think it would be better if abortions never happened. I just don’t think abortion is murder. Let ask you a simple question: Do Christians celebrate the birth of Christ, or the conception of Christ?

They can celebrate the one because no one terminated the other

142 John Neverbend  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:27:21pm

re: #137 rightymouse

It’s bleeding well hilarious.

143 justdanny  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:29:01pm

re: #138 Charles

But I followed all of the prescribed procedures. I stepped up and handed the money and declared my choice and stepped to the right and waited patiently.

Oy… Its cold cereal and juice for me again. (I will find your ancient recipes and I will post them on the web and you will be destroyed. You evil angry soup Nazi)

144 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:33:56pm

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

Sydney, I was brought up as a Catholic. The abortion business is wrong. It is in fact a business. But the murder of that guy is wrong as well. And the persons involved should be arrested as well. I also was a fireman in my younger days, and I have seen the smoke from the towers. I have also served my country. So anyone can smear me all they want, and it does not bother me. To any one who knows, they look like complete morons. But they can do what they want.

145 quickjustice  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:35:23pm

re: #141 jamgarr

And Joseph almost dumped Mary, the mother of Jesus, for getting pregnant out of wedlock with another man. And your point is?

146 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:40:08pm

re: #89 WayDownSouthInBama

Why is calling a murderer a murderer hate but the murderer killing a baby is not hate? I can’t imagine anything more hateful than killing a Mother’s child for money. I don’t hate the people who perform abortions,but I’m not going to deny the results of their actions for the sake of political correctness either.

Civil society cannot permit private executions. This talk about Hitler this and Hitler that misses the point. When you’re up against a Hitler, or some lesser tyrant, all the rules go out the window. It becomes morally permissible, (assuming you’re brave enough to face the inevitable torture by the Gestapo and subsequent guillotine) to turn coat and fight your own nation from the inside, as a soldier on the other side in a just war. You can assassinate leaders, sabotage munitions trains, and generally do anything that a spy or saboteur parachuted in would be justified in doing.

This is a drastic step indeed. What sort of extremity would justify helping Russian soldiers storm through your own cities, raping and looting? What would justify helping enemy bombers fill the skies and rain death on your cities, conventional or even nuclear?

People are subject to all sorts of emotional storms and private despairs, as well as episodes of outright insanity. So it does not suffice that you have concluded, on your own, that things really are that bad. You must have the agreement of friends from outside your circle, people who are respected and widely trusted. Doctors, ministers, generals.

Not one shred of this sort of situation exists when it comes to the U.S.A. of today. The anti-abortion murderers, and the Muslim converts who attack our soldiers at home, do not have the explicit sanction of their own leadership, and though they have it with a wink and a nod, they do not have the further sanction to try to bring down on the heads of the nation the kinds of ruin that attend defeat in war. Not even with a wink and a nod, at least when it comes to the Christian extremists.

The winkers and nodders, Christian and Muslim alike, have a moral duty to call off their dogs and apologize, sincerely and abjectly. One can argue fervently that abortion is a great evil, or that the Iraq war was wrong, but acting the part of a gardener who raises saboteurs and traitors from within his own society, abusing the role of teacher and authority figure, is no way to go about fighting any evil short of Nazi-style regimes hell-bent on genocide.

147 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:41:17pm

re: #121 Nevergiveup

Yes it is. And I think there is more to come, but I hope not. I don’t think the recruiters can carry arms now. And the Armed Services are not popular in many college campuses. At least among teachers. There are probably more Muslims teaching in colleges than ex-military men. But that is just a guess. I don’t know the actual number. I just know what I have seen.

148 brennk2  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:47:09pm

The same hate machine I was part of is still attacking all abortionists as “murderers.” And today, once again, the “pro-life” leaders are busy ducking their personal responsibility for people acting on their words.

I really can’t agree with this statement. I don’t care who called who what, the person who pulled the trigger is the only one responsible. It would be like someone blaming this site if some nut went and killed Rage Boy just because of what may have been posted here. Would that make sense?

149 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:49:22pm

re: #55 pink freud

I don’t listen to Rush either…………caught his act in ‘86 before he went national…..didn’t care for his shtick then…….

150 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:51:04pm

re: #134 justdanny justdanny, that deserves multiple updings.

151 RalphShort  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:52:43pm

It is amazing to me the no. of articles at this site on this one episode. One would think the biggest threat to the country and citizens is the fact a total whacko happened to kill a total loser. Meanwhile, we don’t even know how many are involved in killing the one soldier and critically wounding the other. What we do know is the guy is a muslim (real surprise there) and he had other “opportunities” planned. To my mind the odds are there are others in this as well. Nevertheless, we continue to focus on the act of a crazy guy against someone who runs a clinic to terminate life.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Tiller is not a hero, the idiot and crazy guy who killed him is a loser but there are far more important issues that confront Americans than this episode.

By the way, I am pro life and I would never apologize for taking a stand on this issue, most especially with those who routinely terminate a living human who is totally innocent.

152 justdanny  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:54:29pm

re: #150 Jim in Virginia
I will take those multiple updings and I will donate them to all of the weary updingless. ;)

153 AFVetWife  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:55:14pm

re: #25 Sydney Carton
I agree with you completely. This was a crime, no ifs, ands or buts. Murder is always wrong. In my mind, there’s no such thing as a “hate crime” - if it’s already a crime (i.e. murder), additional labeling doesn’t make it any more so.

In the meantime, why aren’t we hearing more about the murder of the Army recruiter by a converted Islamic? Read Michelle Malkin’s article today for a good summary.

And finally, the last few days have been crazy busy, so I haven’t been here; but AFVet is traveling again, so I have a little time to spend with you.

154 justdanny  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:58:34pm

re: #151 RalphShort
LGF is your only source for news? Charles’ selection of posts defines the national mood and focus?

One guy can’t have a weblog where he posts what he wants? What, some committee needs to be formed to suggest to him what to put here?

Yahoo. Google. Look into them.

155 AFVetWife  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 5:59:28pm

re: #39 realwest

Naturally, our current MSM (or “state-run media as Rush said today) will only feature stories that promote their liberal agenda/sympathies.

156 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:00:03pm

re: #153 AFVetWife

In the meantime, why aren’t we hearing more about the murder of the Army recruiter by a converted Islamic?

What is a “converted Islamic?”

157 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:00:54pm

re: #133 quickjustice

It’s on the Catholic calendar, Walter, but I don’t think it’s widely celebrated. Not being Catholic, however, I could be wrong.

Actually, the Feast of the Annunciation (which marks the occasion when the angel Gabriel appeared to the unwed virgin Mary and said “Hey, guess what!”) is a “holy day of obligation” — meaning that Catholics are required to attend Mass on that day.

It’s usually observed on 25 March, nine months to the day before Christmas. Sometimes the date of observation is moved to avoid conflicting with Holy Week — i.e., the week leading up to Easter Sunday.

158 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:01:12pm

re: #151 RalphShort

re: #153 AFVetWife

Quit yer bitching and jump to the top thread.

159 AFVetWife  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:16:52pm

re: #103 Pythagoras

Regarding terminology, last year my daughter had an early miscarriage. When I read the medical chart, it said “abortion.” This probably referred to the fact that the pregnancy was aborted by natural causes. However, just seeing that word greatly disturbed me.

160 AFVetWife  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:26:26pm

re: #156 Charles

I saw news reports that stated he converted to Islam, and took on a new Islamic name.

161 JeremyR  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:32:37pm

re: #28 Walter L. Newton

Even if the mothers life is in medical danger?

If the mothers life is in medical danger, or a significant health issue, and not a mental issue is present, I would agree to the termination. But if the termination can be done without killing the baby, and if the baby would have some chance at normalicy in life, and by that I mean self sustaining life, not life on machines, then I would say to extract and save the child rather then abort it. Abortions performed after 22 weeks, in most cases do not meet that criteria. Some babies are severely deformed. It is a tough question about whether it is better to abort them, or deliver them and allow them to die with dignity. Were it my child I would opt for death with dignity.
Some years back I met a man who was the last baby born in an old local hospital. His mother was too ill to make the six block trip to the new hospital.

162 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:40:20pm

*salute* to Mr. Frank Schaeffer.

163 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 6:41:58pm

re: #161 JeremyR

… Some babies are severely deformed. It is a tough question about whether it is better to abort them, or deliver them and allow them to die with dignity. Were it my child I would opt for death with dignity.

Jeremy: You state your position very well. My only question is, what if you were denied the option of “death with dignity” for your child? How would you react to a law that took the decision out of your hands?

164 Chekote  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:18:46pm

I don’t agree with his passage regarding Cheney but his conclusion is right on target. Finally, someone with the integrity to take responsibility for their actions. Very refreshing. Let’s see how many follow suit. I especially would like to see what Father Pavone does.

165 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 9:20:29pm

At least he copped to it..

I do, truly wish that the ‘lifers’ would come to the amazingly logical conclusion that making abortion illegal will not stop them, making them unnecessary will.
Then they can focus their efforts in a productive manner.

166 z9z99  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 9:38:16pm

There is a disquieting hysteresis affecting the abortion debate, in that one’s view of the subject is mostly determined by the perspective from which he or she begins the discussion. This is disorienting and disturbing, because we intuitively think that right and wrong should inhere in the nature of the thing considered, rather than the perspective from which it is viewed. We are much more confident in affirming that it is wrong to torture animals because there is really only one perspective with which we can sympathize. This is not true of abortion where we can consider the mother, faced with a soul-abrading circumstance, the fetus, a living, developing human, defenseless, but capable at some point of struggling futilely against a fate that others have decided for him or her. But in addition, there is (all too infrequently) a father, there are the nurses who may be convinced by life experience that safe abortion is sometimes necessary, yet somehow feel it is always a tragedy, and there are many decent people who find that to embrace either side too firmly forces them to reject something they know is true.

Abortion exists in a messy, uncomfortable equilibrium of compassion, empathy, law, intuition and paradox. This equilibrium is easily disturbed by anecdotes and hasty judgment. We are frustrated because we cannot deduce the answer by considering hard cases or infer individual decisions by invoking universal truths. Our experience instead tells us that the dogmatists and absolutists have little to offer. Scorched earth scorches everybody, and will not turn out well.

Good faith disagreement about the nature or legitimacy of abortion must be distinguished from openly advocating violence. The issues surrounding abortion are naturally emotional and inflammatory; it is natural to expect the rhetoric surrounding it to be as well. (On both sides. After GHWB nominated Souter to the Supreme Court, activists produced bumper stickers saying that if Souter was confirmed, women would die.) I reject the idea that people who called Tiller a “baby killer” determined the actions of an unhinged zealot. I may tend more toward a free speech libertarian here, but I do not buy the notion that strenuous language, even if hyperbolic, is responsible for the act of the man who killed George Tiller. I am sure that there were thousands of people who believed that George Tiller was a murderer, who would not be moved by stronger rhetoric to kill the man themselves. Free speech does not carry the guarantee of sane audiences; quite the opposite, it carries risks, like all freedoms. Free speech can be ugly. The sloppy allegation that groups and individuals that opposed George Tiller are somehow “morally responsible” for his death is not a part of the difficult discourse of abortion, it is a collateral attack on free speech, which paradoxically is protected by the right of free speech. Detest the extreme language on either side, if you must, but provide no encouragement to the “hate speech” thought police.

It is good that Frank Schaeffer has confesssed what he himself concluded was his role in explicitly advocating violence, but we should be careful in generalizing his conclusion. There are a lot of evil things done by kooks and zealots, that we could forever be excusing in the interests of displacing that evil to political opponents.

167 ihateronpaul  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:36:46am

Finally some sanity. But he is in the minority, and I think everyone knows that.

168 Land Shark  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:20:21am

Well, at least the man acknowledged the situation, which is progress. I’m Pro-Life, but I believe the dehumanization of abortion providers is wrong because it leads to acts of violence like the murder of Dr. Tiller. As wrong as I believe abortion to be, I believe murder and terrorism are just as bad if not worst.

169 Land Shark  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:36:47am

re: #49 Walter L. Newton

“He himself claims to be the spokesman for the GOP, and that he is “deflecting” all criticism for the GOP.”

I’m a regular listener of Limbaugh and he does not claim to speak for the GOP, and has stated so several times. He jokes that there’s people who believe he speaks for the GOP, but he says he does not. From my observation of the GOP and how it’s acted over the last few years, many in the GOP clearly don’t view him as their spokesman. Besides, Rush prefers to call himself a Conservative first.

I would like to hear him say something on the Dr. Tiller murder though, like a firm condemnation of the crime.

170 medaura18586  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:49:47am

re: #19 Charles

Laughing pretty hard here.

171 theuglydougling  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:59:16am

Meanwhile, no one in the anti-war/anti-military movement will be taking responsibility for their “foolish and incendiary words” that “contributed” to the murder of William Long.

172 Hanoch  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:06:00am

If Mr. Schaeffer advocated violence or murder to stop abortions, he may be right that he shares some responsibility for the violence. The advocacy of violence is a far cry, however, from the expression of a view that abortion is murder. If Mr. Schaeffer is attempting to equate the two, he is engaging in pure demagogy in an attempt to restrict the legitimate expression of political and moral opinion.

173 Yashmak  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:22:12pm

Good on Frank for saying this, regardless of any other issues surrounding the man.

174 gregb  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:02:51pm

I think it’s called intellectual honest and responsibility.

175 Emphasis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:15:43pm

If abortion is not the murder of a human being, but instead is something akin to having your appendix taken out, why should there be a legal impediment to abort the fetus at any time of his/its development?

If abortion is the murder of a human being, and all the “how many angels dance on the head of a pin” sophistic arguments are no more than a definitional fig leaf to justify it, why should we be shocked when some that feel they see through this spider web of deception would take matters into their own hand to prevent further murders from taking place?

It is only through our willingness to believe that we are a nation of laws, and that we must convince each other of the justice and correctness of our argument before laws that might be offensive to a significant part of the population are passed and implemented that we can survive as a civil society. The courts have and are short circuiting this process in this and other issues, thus, they can not avoid their share of the responsibility for the for the anger and frustration that a proper legislative process would have had a chance to dilute.

None of this justifies in my mind the actions of who I consider to be a nut.

176 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:59:08pm

re: #175 Emphasis

If abortion is not the murder of a human being, but instead is something akin to having your appendix taken out, why should there be a legal impediment to abort the fetus at any time of his/its development?

Because at about mid-2nd trimester, the fetus becomes viable, and capable of surviving independently of the womb of the woman who bears it, and can be cared for by ICU’s and, later, any responsible adult, wheras before then this is not possible, so we are talking about something that is human and living, but not an independent or separable person. There is such a thing as development, and development is not certain, since fully a third of zygotes and embryos are miscarried (spontaneously aborted). If abortion were indeed murder, this fact would necvessarily render God or Nature, whichever you prefer, as far and away the world’s greatst murderer, since it would be the world’s greatest abortionist. So we are not talking about an actual human person, nor even a potential human person, since potential implies the inevitability of actualization, which is not the ase considering miscarriages. Instead, we are talking about a possible future person, and where the rights of a possible human person and the rights of an actual present person (the woman) come into conflict, the rights of the latter must necessarily take moral precedence in any sane or just universe.

If abortion is the murder of a human being, and all the “how many angels dance on the head of a pin” sophistic arguments are no more than a definitional fig leaf to justify it, why should we be shocked when some that feel they see through this spider web of deception would take matters into their own hand to prevent further murders from taking place?

But murder is the extra-legal killing of a human person, and a pre-viability zygote or embryo lacks personhood, plus abortion is legal (as are killings of actual persons in war or self-defence). The self-serving deception, and the murderous actions that follow from it, are all on the side of the murderous antiabortion terrorists.

It is only through our willingness to believe that we are a nation of laws, and that we must convince each other of the justice and correctness of our argument before laws that might be offensive to a significant part of the population are passed and implemented that we can survive as a civil society. The courts have and are short circuiting this process in this and other issues, thus, they can not avoid their share of the responsibility for the for the anger and frustration that a proper legislative process would have had a chance to dilute.

We are indeed a nation of laws. And laws have to do with all three branches of our governent; they are passed by the legislative, interpreted by the judiciary, and enforced by the executive. And the highest court in our land has repeatedly ruled on this issue, on the side of permitting women to choose abortions prior to fetal viability. Whether you like that ruling or not is immaterial; in a natiopn of laws, citizens are required to obey laws with which they disagree, or face the legal consequences of breaking them. And interfering with women’s legal right to obtain abortions does indeed transgress this nation’s laws.

None of this justifies in my mind the actions of who I consider to be a nut.

It sounded to me like you were trying, and failing, to justify the actions of that nut by endeavoring to place his actions outside the law of the land, and attempting to blame that very law for his murderous actions. But the US Supreme Court did not pull the trigger of the gun that murdered Dr. Tiller; Scott Roeder did. And now he must face the legal consequences of that act.

177 Emphasis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:56:34pm

>Because at about mid-2nd trimester, the fetus becomes viable, and capable of surviving independently of the womb of the woman who bears itand can be cared for by ICU’s and, later, any responsible adult, wheras before then this is not possible, so we are talking about something that is human and living, but not an independent or separable person.But murder is the extra-legal killing of a human person, and a pre-viability zygote or embryo lacks personhood, plus abortion is legal (as are killings of actual persons in war or self-defence).We are indeed a nation of laws. And laws have to do with all three branches of our governent; they are passed by the legislative, interpreted by the judiciary, and enforced by the executive.It sounded to me like you were trying, and failing, to justify the actions of that nut by endeavoring to place his actions outside the law of the land

178 Emphasis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:59:03pm

>Because at about mid-2nd trimester, the fetus becomes viable, and capable of surviving independently of the womb of the woman who bears itand can be cared for by ICU’s and, later, any responsible adult, wheras before then this is not possible, so we are talking about something that is human and living, but not an independent or separable person.But murder is the extra-legal killing of a human person, and a pre-viability zygote or embryo lacks personhood,

179 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:00:59am

So you’re back to repeating my posts without comment, I see. Precisely, my guess would be, because you are unable to rationally refute the sections you quote, but still dislike them.

180 Emphasis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 7:12:18am

It is undoubtedly my lack of proficiency in posting my messages but I don’t understand why instead of posting mine they just repeat part of yours.

I will give it one final try.


So basically to you abortion is murder once “viability” is attained? If new advances in science allow the fetus to be viable before the 2nd trimester then his/its abortion is murder to you? So if you are old and feeble and have to be cared by a responsible adult because you are no longer “independent” and in practical terms “separable” from the care giver would you feel that it would not be murder to do away with you or let you die?

I tried to explain that the passage of legislation was supposed to follow ample discussions and compromises which through later revisiting would lead to laws that were accepted by the overwhelming majority of the governed. That when the courts as they have frequently done over the last 50 years short circuit this process they deny this consensus building cauldron the time to produce this natural acceptance, and instead impose the will of 9 and in many cases 5 individuals over a population where substantial pluralities do not necessarily agree with their decision. This leaves those affected negatively by the decisions with a feeling that they are disenfranchised and impotent, and thus, angry. It is not a healthy situation, and in my opinion was not one that the founders anticipated.

181 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:40:06am

re: #180 Emphasis

It is undoubtedly my lack of proficiency in posting my messages but I don’t understand why instead of posting mine they just repeat part of yours.

I will give it one final try.

So basically to you abortion is murder once “viability” is attained?

It is not murder, but it is a more serious act, deserving of more stringent restictions. But not only the life, but also the physical health, of the woman still take moral precendence.

If new advances in science allow the fetus to be viable before the 2nd trimester then his/its abortion is murder to you?

See above. And also, due to developmental considerations, and the necessity for the fetus to receive materials specifically made from the body of the particular woman bearing it for development to proceed, such /new advances’ are not on the horizon, or even remotely near it. For instance, the lungs are insufficiently developed to breathe, and the circulatory system is insufficiently developed to carry oxygen to the cells, and the brain is insufficiently developed to regulate heartbeats and respiration.

So if you are old and feeble and have to be cared by a responsible adult because you are no longer “independent” and in practical terms “separable” from the care giver would you feel that it would not be murder to do away with you or let you die?

No. And you are profferring a bad analogy. Your analogy is better applied to a newborn, that is dependent upon care by another, but not any particular other; any responsible adult will do. On the other hand, a pre-viability fetus is dependent upon the specific body of the particular woman carrying it, and cannot suvive physical separation.

I tried to explain that the passage of legislation was supposed to follow ample discussions and compromises which through later revisiting would lead to laws that were accepted by the overwhelming majority of the governed. That when the courts as they have frequently done over the last 50 years short circuit this process they deny this consensus building cauldron the time to produce this natural acceptance, and instead impose the will of 9 and in many cases 5 individuals over a population where substantial pluralities do not necessarily agree with their decision. This leaves those affected negatively by the decisions with a feeling that they are disenfranchised and impotent, and thus, angry. It is not a healthy situation, and in my opinion was not one that the founders anticipated.

If the executive branch and the judiciary had bided their time and waited until a majority of voters in the the South was acceptable of nonwhite equality and elected legislators who would codify it into law, we would still have segregation, Jim Crow, and poll taxes and literacy tests here. KKKers and Stormfronters and Christian Identity folks and National Alliance-ers and Aryan Nations people may feel disenfranchized of racial supremacy as a result, but I really do not care what such twisted bastards think, as I hold such violent racist bigots in utter contempt. Just as I despise zealously fanatical fundamentalist antiabortion terrorists who murder doctors, firebomb clinics, and misogynistically assault, harrass, and intimidate women.

If antabortionist wish to work within the system, by electing public officials who will appoint judges who will rule their way, or public officials who will pass a constitutional amendment banning abortions, they are free to try; that is their right in a constitutional democratic republic, and it is how our system is designed to permit a path by means of which people may strive for such changes. But there is NEVER an excuse for domestic terrorism. Period.

182 Emphasis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 6:09:40pm

is not murder, but it is a more serious act, deserving of more stringent restictions.

Why? Go back to the appendix example.

If the executive branch and the judiciary had bided their time and waited until a majority of voters in the the South was acceptable of nonwhite equality and elected legislators who would codify it into law, we would still have segregation, Jim Crow, and poll taxes and literacy tests here. KKKers and Stormfronters and Christian Identity folks and National Alliance-ers and Aryan Nations people may feel disenfranchized of racial supremacy as a result, but I really do not care what such twisted bastards think, as I hold such violent racist bigots in utter contempt. Just as I despise zealously fanatical fundamentalist antiabortion terrorists who murder doctors, firebomb clinics, and misogynistically assault, harrass, and intimidate women.

Refer to the premise, avoid examples that do not fit the argument…and get a hold of yourself you seem extremely angry.

ppoint judges who will rule their way

It is not your way or their way it is the Constitution’s way, the founding father’s way. It should not be the way of Judges that believe in the idea of an “elastic Constitution” and thus attribute to themselves the right to impose their opinions on the rest of their fellow citizens. Or maybe we should instead just do away with the legislature, at least then we would save the money and pensions we pay them.

183 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 7:21:27pm

re: #182 Emphasis

is not murder, but it is a more serious act, deserving of more stringent restictions.

Why? Go back to the appendix example.

Because of fetal viability.

If the executive branch and the judiciary had bided their time and waited until a majority of voters in the the South was acceptable of nonwhite equality and elected legislators who would codify it into law, we would still have segregation, Jim Crow, and poll taxes and literacy tests here. KKKers and Stormfronters and Christian Identity folks and National Alliance-ers and Aryan Nations people may feel disenfranchized of racial supremacy as a result, but I really do not care what such twisted bastards think, as I hold such violent racist bigots in utter contempt. Just as I despise zealously fanatical fundamentalist antiabortion terrorists who murder doctors, firebomb clinics, and misogynistically assault, harrass, and intimidate women.

Refer to the premise, avoid examples that do not fit the argument…and get a hold of yourself you seem extremely angry.

They fit the argument. Neither the percentage of people who embrace a position or the intensity with which they embrace it are indications of its moral virtue.

And if I seem angry about this, it’s only because I was once a clinic escort at the Ladies Center in Pensacola, Florida, and antiabortion terrorist murderer the Reverend Paul Hill took a shotgun and blew the faces off of an abortion doctor and a fellow clinic escort there, and wounded the escort’s wife as well. I also had those vicious bastards phone in death threats to me, sometimes hundreds daily, for weeks on end, tail me around town, surveill my home, sabotage my car, and murder our family cat and hang it in a backyard tree from a noose around its neck with a note safety-pinned to its belly reading YOU’RE NEXT, BABY KILLER!. All because I happened to drive by the clinic one day, could not stand to see the women entering the clinic being beaten by brutal mobs, and dared to volunteer for clinic escort duty and shield the women entering the clinic with my own body from the twisted sickoes with their protest placards, and absorb the blows meant for them on my own head and shoulders.

ppoint judges who will rule their way

It is not your way or their way it is the Constitution’s way, the founding father’s way. It should not be the way of Judges that believe in the idea of an “elastic Constitution” and thus attribute to themselves the right to impose their opinions on the rest of their fellow citizens. Or maybe we should instead just do away with the legislature, at least then we would save the money and pensions we pay them.

The Bill of Rights in the US Constitution was passed in order to limit the power of the government to prevent the tyranny of the majority from being electorally codified into law and abusing the machinery of the state to oppress the minority. The US Supreme Court is charged with, among many other things, interpreting which freedoms are more than freedoms, but that also qualify as basic human rights.

I, for one thing, do not want to see the machnery of the state imposing itself upon unwilling citizens and mandating their life courses upon them and usurping from them what should be their own most personal and private decisions. I also do not think that such a coercively intrusive bureaucracy is compatible with basic conservative principles of small nonintrusive government and personal freedom.

I want the government to stay the hell out of the boardroom and my pocketbook. I want it to stay the hell out of my bedroom as well.

184 Emphasis  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 4:46:10pm

is not murder, but it is a more serious act, deserving of more stringent restictions. Because of fetal viability.

I have to believe then that your opposition would melt away if advances in the procedures would make the “fetus” viable before your specific timeline. In other words you have an excuse, the person is not viable, but a very poor reason. Those that talk about choice want to end the consequences of activities in which they voluntarily engaged. Please I am not referring to the normal exceptions of rape incest etc. However, there are many situations in our society in which when you voluntarily engage in risky activities, you are held responsible for their consequences.
On the other hand those that would oppose the abortion have very good reasons, but the courts have taken away their excuse. As Bioethicist Andrew Varga stated , “how does viability transform the nature of the fetus so that the non-human being then turns into a human being?” In other words, viability is only a measure of how technically advanced are our neonatal life-support systems. There is no change in the humanity only in the viability. .

Neither the percentage of people who embrace a position or the intensity with which they embrace it are indications of its moral virtue.

That’s why they don’t fit the argument. You can’t believe that there is no morality on the side of those that feel that the fetus humanity deserves to give him his opportunity in life can you? That is not the case in those other situations you mentioned.

I am sorry for your personal experiences and as I stated in my original posting I do not condone or agree with any use of violence. My point has always been to make clear that when 5 or 9 men usurp the duties of the legislature you are creating unhealthy situations, and that in this situation as in many others in our society the usurpation is becoming dangerously common. That is the reason why was used to be a limited process to advice and consent on the nomination of a Supreme Court Judge, has now become something akin to a political witch hunt.

The US Supreme Court is charged with, among many other things, interpreting which freedoms are more than freedoms, but that also qualify as basic human rights.

No it is not. It is only charged with interpreting the Constitution, and in this endeavor give the text the meaning it had at the time it was included in the document (Originalism). If you don’t like something you go after your neighbor and legislators to change the law. That simple.

I want the government to stay the hell out of the boardroom and my pocketbook. I want it to stay the hell out of my bedroom as well.

You won’t get an argument from me on this.

185 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 5:33:06pm

re: #184 Emphasis

is not murder, but it is a more serious act, deserving of more stringent restictions. Because of fetal viability.

I have to believe then that your opposition would melt away if advances in the procedures would make the “fetus” viable before your specific timeline. In other words you have an excuse, the person is not viable, but a very poor reason. Those that talk about choice want to end the consequences of activities in which they voluntarily engaged. Please I am not referring to the normal exceptions of rape incest etc. However, there are many situations in our society in which when you voluntarily engage in risky activities, you are held responsible for their consequences.

But before 20 weeks, the heart is not sufficiently developed to pump blood through the veins, the veins are not sufficiently developed to carry it to the cells, the lungs are not sufficiently developed to oxygenate it, and the brtain is not sufficiently developed to tell the heart to beat or the lungs to breathe. None of the organs is sufficiently developed to perform functions. This is not going to change; prenatal specialists all over have asserted that viability has been pushed back just about as far as it can be. And I do not believe that people who responsibly practice contraception, be they married or not, should be required to carry unintended pregnancies to term should their reasonable precautions fail, as they occasionally do.

On the other hand those that would oppose the abortion have very good reasons, but the courts have taken away their excuse. As Bioethicist Andrew Varga stated , “how does viability transform the nature of the fetus so that the non-human being then turns into a human being?” In other words, viability is only a measure of how technically advanced are our neonatal life-support systems. There is no change in the humanity only in the viability..

What viability changes is that the decision is no longer EITHER the woman’s wishes OR the life of the zygote/embryo/fetus; it can then be BOTH/AND. But the traditional bright line for PERSONHOOD is at natural birth; viability is a concession. And allowing abortions in the 2nd trimester up until fetal viability only to protect and preserve the life or health of the mother or in cases of rape or incest is still another concession. Apparently, a concession to the antiabortionists is equivalent to ceding Gaza to the Palestinians, or accepting them getting a state of their own; they take it, and still want all the rest. No matter who it hurts, or how much.

to be continued…

186 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 5:47:08pm

re: #184 Emphasis

Neither the percentage of people who embrace a position or the intensity with which they embrace it are indications of its moral virtue.

That’s why they don’t fit the argument. You can’t believe that there is no morality on the side of those that feel that the fetus humanity deserves to give him his opportunity in life can you? That is not the case in those other situations you mentioned.

YOU’re the one who resorted to citing percentage of people who agreed with further abortion restruictions, not I; I simply countered your argument with principles. And I do believe that people who would enslave women and warp their wombs into jails simply because they value the life of a zygote or an embryo more than they respect her right to make her own decisions concerning what happens with and within her own body possess morals; I just also view their morals as being horrifically and tragically warped. Just as racists and homophobes have horrifically and tragically warped senses of moality.

I am sorry for your personal experiences and as I stated in my original posting I do not condone or agree with any use of violence. My point has always been to make clear that when 5 or 9 men usurp the duties of the legislature you are creating unhealthy situations, and that in this situation as in many others in our society the usurpation is becoming dangerously common. That is the reason why was used to be a limited process to advice and consent on the nomination of a Supreme Court Judge, has now become something akin to a political witch hunt.

There were plenty of well respected people in the South who said the same thing about Brown vs. Board of Education.

The US Supreme Court is charged with, among many other things, interpreting which freedoms are more than freedoms, but that also qualify as basic human rights.

No it is not. It is only charged with interpreting the Constitution, and in this endeavor give the text the meaning it had at the time it was included in the document (Originalism). If you don’t like something you go after your neighbor and legislators to change the law. That simple.

You are wrong. The Supreme Court has upon numerous occasions been required to rule upon whether this or that action was an abrogation of freedom of speech, or of religion, etc. In this case, they decided that the liberty of women outweighs the lives of zygotes and embryos, because women are persons and citizens, and zygotes and embryos are not.

I want the government to stay the hell out of the boardroom and my pocketbook. I want it to stay the hell out of my bedroom as well.

You won’t get an argument from me on this.

I also want them to keep their hands and handcuffs off womens’ bodies.

187 Emphasis  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 9:01:41am

I think we can’t take this conversation any further. As I stated before “when 5 or 9 men usurp the duties of the legislature you are creating an unhealthy situation in our society. For those that believe that the bill of rights is there to protect the minority from the majority this should be a matter of concern. If the judges are able to liberate themselves from the text of the Constitution, and if the legislature which supposedly has been elected by a majority of the people is only approving judges that reflect the views of that majority, where is the protection of the minorities going to come from?

Let me give you a contrasting example of what the Constitution used to be and what it has become. The example is not mine; it was given in a speech by a Supreme Court Justice. Even though the Equal Protection Clause existed since after the Civil War, we still had to amend the constitution to give women the right to vote (19th amendment) in 1920 why? Because at that time both the courts and the people believed that you gave the text of the Constitution the meaning it had at the time it became part of the document. Let me ask you do you think that if the 19th amendment was not now in the Constitution, and given what you know of the way the Court ruled in the abortion case would it be necessary to have a 19th amendment? Of course not.

Well that is how far we have come, and we are heading to a time where there is no Constitution per-se only what those 5 or 9 “wise” men think it is good or fair for us. This is not healthy, once they rule that something is unconstitutional according to their “pants”, the issue is no longer debatable. It no longer can be discussed over the length of time necessary for the hard decisions and the moralities of the situation to be evaluated, discussed, and ironed out between those that may have an interest.

188 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 9:50:19am

re: #187 Emphasis

I think we can’t take this conversation any further. As I stated before “when 5 or 9 men usurp the duties of the legislature you are creating an unhealthy situation in our society. For those that believe that the bill of rights is there to protect the minority from the majority this should be a matter of concern. If the judges are able to liberate themselves from the text of the Constitution, and if the legislature which supposedly has been elected by a majority of the people is only approving judges that reflect the views of that majority, where is the protection of the minorities going to come from?

The point is that the judges are interpreting the text of the Constitution, not departing from it. Extrapolations are necessary, for as brilliant as the Founding Fathers and Framers were, they could hardly have been expected to anticipate contemporary issues that have subsequently arisen, the evolution of our moral understanding, and the concommitant expansion of the circle of citizenship, first to blacks, then to women. Your vision of the Constitution seems to be indistinguishable from a Biblical Literalist Dominionist Young Earth Creationist’s vision of the Bible.

Besides which, abortion was not illegal in this nation at the time that the US Constitution was drafted, and I’m quite certain that it never occurred to the drafters of the Constitution to address it.

Let me give you a contrasting example of what the Constitution used to be and what it has become. The example is not mine; it was given in a speech by a Supreme Court Justice. Even though the Equal Protection Clause existed since after the Civil War, we still had to amend the constitution to give women the right to vote (19th amendment) in 1920 why? Because at that time both the courts and the people believed that you gave the text of the Constitution the meaning it had at the time it became part of the document. Let me ask you do you think that if the 19th amendment was not now in the Constitution, and given what you know of the way the Court ruled in the abortion case would it be necessary to have a 19th amendment? Of course not.

The same argument was profferred against the Equal Rights Amendment, but I still think it would be a good idea to pass it, rather than to rule as if it were already passed. Certainly you would not wish for the US Supreme Court to rule to uphold discriminatory practices against women on the basis that the ERA is not part of the US Constitution. Or would you?

Well that is how far we have come, and we are heading to a time where there is no Constitution per-se only what those 5 or 9 “wise” men think it is good or fair for us. This is not healthy, once they rule that something is unconstitutional according to their “pants”, the issue is no longer debatable. It no longer can be discussed over the length of time necessary for the hard decisions and the moralities of the situation to be evaluated, discussed, and ironed out between those that may have an interest.

Once again, you could make the same argument in the Brown vs. Board of Education case, and many in fact did. But the fact of ancient prejudice, and the fact that it was assumed rather than addressed, is no excuse to perpetuate it into the modern era.


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