Obama’s Speech to the Islamic World

World • Views: 5,456

Andrew Malcolm has posted the full text of Barack Obama’s speech this morning: What Barack Hussein Obama told Muslims in Egypt.

I was struck by this quote, a straightforward rebuke of the conspiracy theories that are so prevalent in the Arab world (especially in Egypt):

The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America’s goals, and our need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not go by choice, we went because of necessity. I am aware that some question or justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet Al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with.

And this part, in a country that is rife with Holocaust denial:

Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed — more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction — or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews — is deeply wrong and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.

Overall, this was a pretty good speech, with the usual boilerplate statements of support for a two-state solution in the Middle East, but also a clear acknowledgment of the Palestinian culture of violence:

Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through violence and killing is wrong and does not succeed. For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America’s founding. This same story can be told by people from South Africa to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It’s a story with a simple truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign of neither courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is surrendered.

Read the whole thing. It’s doubtful that this one speech is going to lead to a “new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world,” but it’s certainly going to give the Muslim world a lot to talk about. It will be interesting to watch their reactions.

UPDATE at 6/4/09 9:29:19 am:

I agree with Max Boot’s summation:

Not bad. It could have been better. But it also could have been a lot worse.

UPDATE at 6/4/09 9:35:17 am:

One of my biggest criticisms is the very weak statement Obama made about women’s rights; I think this is one of the most critical issues the Islamic world needs to address in order to effect real change, but Obama spent only three paragraphs on it, and didn’t say much other than to note that women need the right to education:

I know there is debate about this issue. I reject the view of some in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is denied equality. And it is no coincidence that countries where women are well-educated are far more likely to be prosperous.

There’s much more to the overwhelming misogyny of the Islamic world than simply a lack of education, and this is a much larger problem than Obama’s speech seems to recognize.

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539 comments
1 Chicken Kiev  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:18:18am

i still don't like him.

2 Pianobuff  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:18:54am

1000+ comments guaranteed.

3 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:19:46am

Reposted from the dead thread:
Some of my comments on the speech:

America and Islam are not exclusive, and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles - principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.


Funny, I didn't think Islam had a principle of justice for anyone but Muslim men; it certainly isn't tolerant of other religions; and doesn't treat its women with dignity.
I'll skip the accomplishments, since I've seen that part being discussed, but this sentence got me:

And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.


Muslims were big in the Black slave trade, and, at best, they "tolerate" other religions (and then only Judaism and Christianity) if those people pay the dhimmi tax.
His section on the US is good, showing how Muslims are free to be Muslim in the US. When he said how many mosques there are in this country, I wish he compared it with the lack of churches and synagogues in Saudi Arabia, though.
Again, he placed the blame squarely on Al Qaeda for 9/11, and said we can't tolerate people who will attack us.

In Ankara, I made clear that America is not - and never will be - at war with Islam. We will, however, relentlessly confront violent extremists who pose a grave threat to our security. Because we reject the same thing that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men, women, and children. And it is my first duty as President to protect the American people.


I wish he would do more to protect the American people, but at least he recognizes that is is duty.

It's a story with a simple truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign of neither courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is surrendered.
Now is the time for Palestinians to focus on what they can build. The Palestinian Authority must develop its capacity to govern, with institutions that serve the needs of its people. Hamas does have support among some Palestinians, but they also have responsibilities. To play a role in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, and to unify the Palestinian people, Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past agreements, and recognize Israel's right to exist.


Good, but I expect nothing to come out of this. The question is, when the Palis still refuse to stop violence and recognize Israel, will Obama blame them or Israel? My guess is the latter.

At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's. The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop.
Israel must also live up to its obligations to ensure that Palestinians can live, and work, and develop their society. And just as it devastates Palestinian families, the continuing humanitarian crisis in Gaza does not serve Israel's security; neither does the continuing lack of opportunity in the West Bank. Progress in the daily lives of the Palestinian people must be part of a road to peace, and Israel must take concrete steps to enable such progress.


If the Palis recognize Israel, they will receive recognition in return. And the problems the Palis have are the direct result of violence; Obama needs to recognize that.
He does go on about religious freedom; did mention the Copts; and said women deserve better. All good points, but I don't have time for more analysis.
Overall - mostly good, but I wish he'd realize how much of an obstacle the Palis are to their having a state, and stop blaming Israel for defending itself.

4 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:20:58am
Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through violence and killing is wrong and does not succeed. For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights.

Um... Charles, are you favorably impressed with Obama's implicit comparsion of the situation of Palestinians to that of slaves in pre-Emancipation America?

5 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:21:07am

Woohoo! Let the healing begin!

6 JamesW  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:22:32am

Regrettably, Arab culture and chauvanism will make them ignore the aspects of the speech with criticizes their attitudes. They will take it as a sign the US agrees with them, never mind the specific parts that point out their errors.

7 Chrees  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:22:35am

Hmmmmm.... how does a continuation of Bush's policies constitute a new beginning? With the exception of a couple of paragraphs (especially on Iraq), this sounds like something W would have said.

Muslim reaction--same as before. Say one thing, nothing changes.

8 Kragar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:23:25am

re: #5 Leonidas Hoplite

Woohoo! Let the healing begin!

We'll need to grovel more.

Iran's Khamenei says US 'deeply' hated in Mideast

"The nations in the region hate the United States from the bottom of their hearts because they have seen violence, military intervention and discrimination," Khamenei said at the mausoleum of Khomeini.

"The new US government seeks to transform this image. I say firmly, that this will not be achieved by talking, speech and slogans.

"They have done things that have deeply hurt the nations in the region... action is needed and one can not remove this deep hatred by words, speeches and slogans."

9 EaterOfFood  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:23:56am

re: #7 Chrees

Hmmmmm.... how does a continuation of Bush's policies constitute a new beginning? With the exception of a couple of paragraphs (especially on Iraq), this sounds like something W would have said.

Muslim reaction--same as before. Say one thing, nothing changes.

I was thinking that exactly. This is a Bush speech given by Obama.

Not that that's a bad thing, mind you.

10 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:24:00am
And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

Um... no, Mr. President, actually that is not part of your job description. Not even close.

11 Pianobuff  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:24:10am

Although I disagree with too many of Obama's policies to count and although I think some of his points were too watered down (human rights especially), I do give him credit for trying something. If nothing else, it lays down a marker for responses from all sides.

12 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:24:46am

re: #6 JamesW

Regrettably, Arab culture and chauvanism will make them ignore the aspects of the speech with criticizes their attitudes. They will take it as a sign the US agrees with them, never mind the specific parts that point out their errors.

Ignoring inconvenient truths is not an exclusive trait of Arabs, sad to say. Humanity is heir to that fault.

13 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:24:53am

Something not said is very interesting.
Stories from the Jerusalem Post indicated Obama wanted to have some bone to give Israel from the Saudis, like a trade mission, but he was rejected.
It is clear the Arabs will only accept Israel once it is flooded with Arab "refugees" (G-d forbid!) and becomes another Arab state.

14 VegasRick  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:25:07am

re: #5 Leonidas Hoplite

Woohoo! Let the healing begin!

Riiiight!

15 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:25:57am

Reposted from the DT below:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It may have been a nice speech, rhetorically briliant (teleprompters working!), but attacking Israel before a Muslim audience is just not on!

16 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:25:57am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The nations in the region hate the United States from the bottom of their hearts

True enough on the grovelling but I really don't give a crap if they hate us or not. Not too mention that all the grovelling in the world won't make them happy.

17 Catttt  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:26:01am

Hope for the best - prepare for the worst.

I very much like those quotations - I just wish everyone would take them to heart. I especially liked his example, quoted below, about violence:

For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America’s founding.

18 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:26:08am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We'll need to grovel more.

Iran's Khamenei says US 'deeply' hated in Mideast

When do we get the next da'wa letter?
And will Obama understand what it is?

19 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:26:13am

re: #4 Occasional Reader

Um... Charles, are you favorably impressed with Obama's implicit comparsion of the situation of Palestinians to that of slaves in pre-Emancipation America?

There's plenty to criticize in the speech, but no more than in any George W. Bush speech. Bush may not have brought up slavery, but he certainly said lots of the same feel-good phrases about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and Obama has no monopoly on the "two-state solution" stuff.

20 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:26:30am

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

21 Kragar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:26:32am

re: #10 Occasional Reader

Um... no, Mr. President, actually that is not part of your job description. Not even close.

I think he is confusing it with the "best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" part. He seems to have a lot of problems with that part really.

22 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:26:37am

re: #13 Kosh's Shadow

Something not said is very interesting.
Stories from the Jerusalem Post indicated Obama wanted to have some bone to give Israel from the Saudis, like a trade mission, but he was rejected.
It is clear the Arabs will only accept Israel once it is flooded with Arab "refugees" (G-d forbid!) and becomes another Arab state.

The only bone Obama is going to have give Israel is one from even more victims of Islamic terrorism.

23 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:26:48am

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

How about a government for one?

24 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:27:14am

The vaunted speech isn't so vaunted. It's how he said certain passages, and what he omitted that are particularly troublesome. He continues the trope about settlements being an obstruction to peace. They have not now, or ever been an impediment to peace - see Israel's relinquishment of the communities in Sinai. Israel disengaged and withdrew from Gaza, and all Gazans have done in return is turn it into a rocket launching region to carry out war against Israel.

Israel doesn't have a partner in peace in the Palestinians, and the regimes of the region are a big reason why - they deflected criticism for their own failings onto Israel, and allowed/encourages the Islamists to teach jihad - again, those regimes deflected the attention onto Israel.

He glosses over (ignores really) the misogynistic nature of Islam, and the repeated news of stoning of women allegedly engaging in adultery by being in the presence of men with whom they are not related.

He posits that the problems in the region are the result of colonialism. Sorry, but we're nearly 60 years after the end colonialism and these regimes are in control of their own destinies. They've chosen war with Israel and perpetuating the indoctrination of hatred towards Israel and the Jews. That's not changing now or anytime soon, and the Islamists make this part and parcel of the jihad.

Further, while he repeats the Bush era line that the US isn't at war with Islam, the Administration's policies outwardly ignore that Islamists are at war with the US.

And then there's the whole issue of Iran.

25 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:27:33am

re: #19 Charles

and Obama has no monopoly on the "two-state solution" stuff.

But, but... according to NPR this morning, this "two-state solution" idea represented a totally "fresh start", that had never been tried before!

26 Gus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:27:46am

Can't be an Obama speech without more political promises and spending:

Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to live together. We must always examine the ways in which we protect it. For instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made it harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation. That is why I am committed to working with American Muslims to ensure that they can fulfill zakat.

On education, we will expand exchange programs, and increase scholarships, like the one that brought my father to America, while encouraging more Americans to study in Muslim communities. And we will match promising Muslim students with internships in America; invest in on-line learning for teachers and children around the world; and create a new online network, so a teenager in Kansas can communicate instantly with a teenager in Cairo.

On economic development, we will create a new corps of business volunteers to partner with counterparts in Muslim-majority countries. And I will host a Summit on Entrepreneurship this year to identify how we can deepen ties between business leaders, foundations and social entrepreneurs in the United States and Muslim communities around the world.

On science and technology, we will launch a new fund to support technological development in Muslim-majority countries, and to help transfer ideas to the marketplace so they can create jobs. We will open centers of scientific excellence in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, and appoint new Science Envoys to collaborate on programs that develop new sources of energy, create green jobs, digitize records, clean water, and grow new crops. And today I am announcing a new global effort with the Organization of the Islamic Conference to eradicate polio. And we will also expand partnerships with Muslim communities to promote child and maternal health.

27 VegasRick  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:27:49am

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

State flower?
/

28 Land Shark  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:27:58am

From what I've seen of the speech it's not as bad as I feared it would be. It even touched on some points I thought needed to be touched upon. I'm not going to get carried away by the occasional sign of sanity from BHO, but at least it wasn't the groveling mea culpa I feared.

Of course, he did have to give more credit to Islam than it deserves at the end, but overall not as bad as I feared.

29 kynna  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:28:07am

I don't have high hopes for any kind of reconciliation. Like the Israeli/Palestinian problem, only one side seems to want to reconcile. That pretty much guarantees failure. I'm actually not in full agreement with much of this speech, and I doubt it will have any major impact on the Muslim world. Imam's whose business is strife will be sure to undercut any interest their followers have. And governments who survive by diversionary tactics will not allow their people to be empowered by any vision of America other than B.A.D.

The long suck-up hasn't worked in decades. We see progress after eight tough years from Bush and then back to proven failure. History doesn't give me much hope for a new outlook in the ME.

30 Kragar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:28:12am

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

A national pastime other than killing Jews?

31 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:28:14am

re: #21 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think he is confusing it with the "best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" part. He seems to have a lot of problems with that part really.

He's just working overtime to "modernize" the Constitution and redefine the duties outlined therein.

32 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:28:21am

re: #13 Kosh's Shadow

Something not said is very interesting.
Stories from the Jerusalem Post indicated Obama wanted to have some bone to give Israel from the Saudis, like a trade mission, but he was rejected.
It is clear the Arabs will only accept Israel once it is flooded with Arab "refugees" (G-d forbid!) and becomes another Arab state.

That's what the "2 state" solution means. The Arabs get one Palestinian Arab state, completely ethnically cleansed of Jew right away, and another Palestinian Arab state later, once they have managed to squeeze all the Jews out of what is left of Israel.

33 Catttt  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:28:30am

re: #25 Occasional Reader

But, but... according to NPR this morning, this "two-state solution" idea represented a totally "fresh start", that had never been tried before!

You listened to NPR, and you survived? /

34 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:28:42am

re: #23 Creeping Eruption

How about a government for one?

They have a government. Heck, they have two or more governments, which engage in vigorous rounds of trying to kill each other... but that's THEIR problem, the Israelis can't solve it for them.

35 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:28:56am

(btw, I still don't like him either)

Well I'll be damned! I didn't expect all of this from Obama, and certainly not spoken this clearly.

I agree with Charles:

...it’s certainly going to give the Muslim world a lot to talk about. It will be interesting to watch their reactions.

36 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:02am

re: #27 VegasRick

State flower?
/

don't forget the proud Hamas Rooster

37 3 wood  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:05am

re: #10 Occasional Reader

And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

Um... no, Mr. President, actually that is not part of your job description. Not even close.

Well, he did say that he does not think we are a Christian nation.

38 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:07am

Barry rolls it straight down the middle and get the 7-10 split.

39 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:09am

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

re: #23 Creeping Eruption

How about a government for one?

This is what I mean: Three dead as Palestinian police, Hamas clash in West Bank

40 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:15am

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

Yes, the elimination of Israel.

41 Mikey_Dallas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:27am

If Obama is going to mention black slavery in America pre civil war, ummmm, he MIGHT have mentioned something about slavery in the Arab world TODAY.....

42 FrogMarch  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:38am

I'm glad Obama said some of those things. surprised, actually.

43 pat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:47am

Wonder when reality enters the picture?

44 Cygnus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:52am

He has a pretty good speechwriter. His voice will always annoy me, though.

45 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:54am

re: #34 Occasional Reader

They have a government. Heck, they have two or more governments, which engage in vigorous rounds of trying to kill each other... but that's THEIR problem, the Israelis can't solve it for them.

Exactly. They lack a government that can govern. No statehood.

46 captdiggs  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:59am

It's a long speech with both good points and bad in it.
It will be analyzed to death. But I noted the particular irony of apologizing for American "torture" in a country renowned for its used of real torture ( electric shock, whippings, etc.) on the prisoners it holds.

47 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:30:05am

Also previously posted by me:
Obama delivers strong attack on Israeli settlements in speech to Muslim world

This is the headline in the TIMES/London. And here are the first two paragraphs of that report:

'Barack Obama today delivered one of the strongest condemnations by an American president of Israeli settlement building as he appealed for a fresh start between the US and the Islamic world.

In an audacious address at Cairo university to a worldwide audience of 1.5 billion Muslims, Mr Obama told the Israeli government that continuing to construct new Jewish homes in the occupied Palestinian territories was unacceptable and must stop. '

It is unbelievable that a President attacks another, and friendly, country in front of an audinece which is hostile to said country.

48 Tarkus289  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:30:09am

I miss the rooster.

49 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:30:27am

re: #43 pat

He's a liberal, so never.

50 CIA Reject  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:31:06am

re: #27 VegasRick

State flower?
/

I'll give 'em the State Bird!

/New Yorker

51 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:31:07am

Charles, I hope the fact that I agree with your fair assessment of his speech does not reflect poorly on you. Down tread, I did learn peace is probably difficult, if not impossible, but I contend that the search for peace is not a left/right issue. From Carter to Bush and now Omaba. we've tried, and that's what America does.

52 DaddyG  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:31:16am

"Muslims are free to be Muslims in the US."

I'll say...

Just ask Army Pvt. William Andrew Long and Pvt. Quinton I. Ezeagwula how free Abdulhakim Muhammad was to express his religious convictions.

53 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:31:18am

re: #19 Charles

There's plenty to criticize in the speech, but no more than in any George W. Bush speech. Bush may not have brought up slavery, but he certainly said lots of the same feel-good phrases about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and Obama has no monopoly on the "two-state solution" stuff.


Your right he has no monopoly on the two State Solution, even thought he acts like it's a great new idea? For the Record, Israel HAS ACCEPTED the concept of a "Palestinian State". And the present Israeli Government has NOT reneged on that pledge. It has questioned the wisdom and practicality of the "Road Map" but it has NOT disavowed them. As a matter of fact, it is the Present AMERICAN Government that has disavowed past promises to Israel about the natural growth of towns and cities on the West Bank.

54 Catttt  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:32:14am

I hate to sound self-centered, and the speech has some good stuff in it, which makes me continue to think that on international affairs, President Obama is more like President Bush than not, but - - - - - - -

It's the economy, stupid!

55 FrogMarch  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:32:19am
The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America’s goals, and our need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not go by choice, we went because of necessity. I am aware that some question or justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet Al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with

.

Troofer heads just exploded.
/// I thought Bush, Cheney, the Mossad, space aliens, and the CIA bombed the towers by stuffing them with dynamite and manipulating those aircraft?

56 2by2  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:32:53am

re: #41 Mikey_Dallas

If Obama is going to mention black slavery in America pre civil war, ummmm, he MIGHT have mentioned something about slavery in the Arab world TODAY.....

He did speak about murder in Dafur et al.

57 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:32:53am
58 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:33:07am

re: #45 Creeping Eruption

Exactly. They lack a government that can govern. No statehood.

Well, again... that's not something the Israelis or anyone else can solve for them. Except, er, by occupying them, of course. It's truly bizarre that the failures of Palestinian political culture are foisted on Israel, the US... anyone but the Palestinians themselves.

59 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:33:10am

re: #35 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(btw, I still don't like him either)

Well I'll be damned! I didn't expect all of this from Obama, and certainly not spoken this clearly.

I agree with Charles:

I can predict the reactions of the Muslim world right now!

All they will have heard is that PB0 has condemmend Israel ...
Everything else is just nicey-nicey, which they can overlook as so much hot air.

60 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:33:11am

Gobama!

61 Cygnus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:33:18am

re: #48 Tarkus289

I miss the rooster.

Weep not! For now we have the giant Jew-eating rabbit!

62 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:33:52am

I'm with Max Boot on this too. It's good Obama got down to a few brass tacks, even if it was only a few wrapped up in a fluffy sock.

63 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:34:00am

It was surreal to watch this arrogant bastard presume to lecture the Middle Eastern world. The applause was moderate and sporadic with the greatest applause coming when he spoke of rights for women. They liked it when he spoke in farsi (?) and I wonder what they thought when he said "mohammed, peace be unto them". LOL

Something about an American president presuming to lecture the entire middle eastern world about this new and improved World of 0bana seems like one big joke. (And I'm American ...think how they feel about it there.)

64 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:34:28am

re: #52 DaddyG

"Muslims are free to be Muslims in the US."

I'll say...

Just ask Army Pvt. William Andrew Long and Pvt. Quinton I. Ezeagwula how free Abdulhakim Muhammad was to express his religious convictions.

Million updings for that, if I could ...!

65 voirdire  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:34:39am

So the Palestinians were victimized in 1948. Interesting. This seems like a recurrent one-party ticket theme from the government today, i.e., When will we (and the Israelis) just stop being racists?

66 Dianna  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:34:41am

Printed. Now I'm going to go get some coffee and read it.

67 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:34:53am

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

You got all the updings I could give.

I'm all out of dings
I'm so lost without you...

68 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:35:21am

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Well, again... that's not something the Israelis or anyone else can solve for them. Except, er, by occupying them, of course. It's truly bizarre that the failures of Palestinian political culture are foisted on Israel, the US... anyone but the Palestinians themselves.

So whats new?

69 SFGoth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:35:28am

Violence *did* enable Lincoln to end slavery just as it enabled the Allies to defeat Hitler.

70 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:35:59am
It is a sign of neither courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is surrendered.

I can hear the rotten teeth gnashing and can smell the stench of self-defecation: all across Gaza and the West Bank; in Beirut, Damascus, Amman and Cairo; and perhaps most of all in Tehran.
Magnificent.

71 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:36:16am

Obama is uniquely positioned to talk sense to the Islamic world & they should listen.

72 Cygnus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:36:23am

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

You got all the updings I could give.

I regret that I have but one upding to give to my fellow poster.

73 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:36:44am

re: #69 SFGoth

Violence *did* enable Lincoln to end slavery just as it enabled the Allies to defeat Hitler.

And the exact analogy here would be that the Palestinians can use violence to achieve their ends.

Idiot.

74 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:36:49am

The Holocaust was bad, on the other hand Occupation is bad.

Charles? Did you see that? It looks to me like classic Dkos moral equivilance.

75 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:36:55am

Pic of the day?
Yahoo pic

Palestinian Hamas militants wear masks to conceal their identities from the camera as they watch the televised speech of US President Barack Obama as they pose with their weapons in front of journalists at at training base in Rafah, southern Gaza Strip, Thursday, June 4, 2009. Quoting from the Quran for emphasis, President Barack Obama called for a 'new beginning between the United States and Muslims' Thursday and said together, they could confront violent extremism across the globe and advance the timeless search for peace in the Middle East.

heh.

76 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:01am

re: #70 Spare O'Lake

I can hear the rotten teeth gnashing and can smell the stench of self-defecation: all across Gaza and the West Bank; in Beirut, Damascus, Amman and Cairo; and perhaps most of all in Tehran.

and then they heard the speech.

77 Kragar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:11am

re: #69 SFGoth

Violence *did* enable Lincoln to end slavery just as it enabled the Allies to defeat Hitler.

Anyone who ever argues violence never solved anything doesn't know their history.

78 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:22am

re: #71 Ojoe

Obama is uniquely positioned to talk sense to the Islamic world & they should listen.

Why is he uniquely positioned?

79 SummerSong  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:25am

re: #63 pink freud
Something about an American president presuming to lecture the entire middle eastern world about this new and improved World of 0bana seems like one big joke.

That is what he does, he lectures.

80 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:26am

re: #62 BigPapa

I'm with Max Boot on this too. It's good Obama got down to a few brass tacks, even if it was only a few wrapped up in a fluffy sock.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the brass tacks.

81 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:28am

re: #69 SFGoth

Violence *did* enable Lincoln to end slavery just as it enabled the Allies to defeat Hitler.

Targets weren't innocent women and children as with terrorism; targets were the Confederate and Nazi armed forces and leadership.

82 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:38am

re: #47 yma o hyd

Also previously posted by me:
Obama delivers strong attack on Israeli settlements in speech to Muslim world

This is the headline in the TIMES/London. And here are the first two paragraphs of that report:

'Barack Obama today delivered one of the strongest condemnations by an American president of Israeli settlement building as he appealed for a fresh start between the US and the Islamic world.

In an audacious address at Cairo university to a worldwide audience of 1.5 billion Muslims, Mr Obama told the Israeli government that continuing to construct new Jewish homes in the occupied Palestinian territories was unacceptable and must stop. '

It is unbelievable that a President attacks another, and friendly, country in front of an audinece which is hostile to said country.

And as previously posted by me, the headline was completely out of context.

83 Catttt  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:39am

re: #69 SFGoth

Violence *did* enable Lincoln to end slavery just as it enabled the Allies to defeat Hitler.

But it was because of an "insistence upon the ideals at the center of America’s founding" that we entered into those conflicts.

Just getting rid of violence is not the issue - it is the last part of that quote - having ideals that are worthy of supporting - and fighting for.

84 moshavnik  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:49am

I find out so funny that the Egyptians are "supporting" the Palestinians. They occupied part of the Palestinian state from 1948-67. During that time there was a curfew EVERY night and Palestinians were not allowed into Egypt. Today the border between Egypt and Gaza is closed. No one in the MSM seems to have picked up on this. There is also never any mention of the 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

85 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:38:11am

re: #55 FrogMarch

.

Troofer heads just exploded.
/// I thought Bush, Cheney, the Mossad, space aliens, and the CIA bombed the towers by stuffing them with dynamite and manipulating those aircraft?

Toofers heads? How about his pastors head?

86 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:38:53am

re: #78 Nevergiveup

Skin color and attended a madrassa.

87 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:01am

re: #84 moshavnik

I find out so funny that the Egyptians are "supporting" the Palestinians. They occupied part of the Palestinian state from 1948-67. During that time there was a curfew EVERY night and Palestinians were not allowed into Egypt. Today the border between Egypt and Gaza is closed. No one in the MSM seems to have picked up on this. There is also never any mention of the 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

Why complicated a feel good story about all the JEWS have done to the poor Palestinians with the facts.

88 Kragar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:37am

re: #81 Leonidas Hoplite

Targets weren't innocent women and children as with terrorism; targets were the Confederate and Nazi armed forces and leadership.

re: #81 Leonidas Hoplite

Targets weren't innocent women and children as with terrorism; targets were the Confederate and Nazi armed forces and leadership.

Allow Israel to actually wage a war without interference targetting Pali armed forces and leadership and see how long it lasts.

89 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:38am

I did not hear the speech this morning, but according to one person I heard on the radio, the applause given and not given is telling. From what I understand, the crowd applauded certain things in Obama's speech and not others (citations of the Koran, settlements, Palestinians, etc) in a way that was very telling of the crowd assembled.

Can someone fill me in a bit more on that?

90 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:38am

re: #84 moshavnik

I find out so funny that the Egyptians are "supporting" the Palestinians. They occupied part of the Palestinian state from 1948-67. During that time there was a curfew EVERY night and Palestinians were not allowed into Egypt. Today the border between Egypt and Gaza is closed. No one in the MSM seems to have picked up on this. There is also never any mention of the 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

Well that requires actual work, insight, research, thoughtfulness, etc...

91 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:43am

re: misogyny update

Obama ducked (*DUCKED*!) this one.

92 NonNativeTexan  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:44am

This strikes me as untrue
And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.

This scares me
That is why I strongly reaffirmed America’s commitment to seek a world in which no nations hold nuclear weapons.

I like this
America’s strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied

I love this
In Ankara, I made clear that America is not – and never will be – at war with Islam. We will, however, relentlessly confront violent extremists who pose a grave threat to our security. Because we reject the same thing that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men, women, and children. And it is my first duty as President to protect the American people

93 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:46am
94 doppelganglander  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:50am

Since I don't believe a word out of BHO's mouth, including "and" and "the," it's almost immaterial to me whether it's a good speech or a bad speech.

95 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:17am

re: #88 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Allow Israel to actually wage a war without interference targetting Pali armed forces and leadership and see how long it lasts.

Exactly.

96 DaddyG  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:18am

re: #63 pink freud I worry that he's giving a speech to a group that is outright hostile to the US or quietly loathing at best.

Meanwhile our closest allies can't get the time of day. The best they can hope for is an I-pod loaded with his greatest hits.

More pretty empty words carefully crafted for the intended audience and read from the teleprompter by the One.

While he didn't grovel overtly he did spend a lot of time equivocating the sins of the US (most of which were 100 years in our past) with the current oppression in the middle east (while leaving it open to audience interpretation to determine who the "real" victims were.)

Full equality for all in the US came about with a whole lot of violence - perhaps he forgot that Civil War thing.

97 joo-liz  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:20am

re: #19 Charles

His take on the settlements were new...

At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel’s right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s. The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop.

With no mention of American agreements.

One thing that really gets to me is that the way he speaks sounds reasonable. If we could erase the history of the past 15-16 years, then I would be applauding every move he is making. The thing is, that we can't. Everything he is telling Israel to do now has been tried, and it failed. The majority of the Israeli public was fully supportive of a Palestinian state until it was shown disastrously that there was no such commitment on the other side.

I can easily see people who are "new" to the conflict, or simply who don't know the full context and events of the post-Oslo era agreeing with Obama, and not being able to comprehend the folly of his positions.

98 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:24am

re: #86 Ojoe

Skin color and attended a madrassa.

I thought-what did MLK say about not taking notice of the color of someone's skin? And he is also white? And he was 5 fuckin years old?

99 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:32am

re: #88 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Allow Israel to actually wage a war without interference targetting Pali armed forces and leadership and see how long it lasts.

The Palestinian Armed forces can't fight unless they are hiding behind women and children.

100 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:37am

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

I repeat my plea once again. Anyone? Bueller?

101 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:42am
102 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:57am

re: #88 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Allow Israel to actually wage a war without interference targetting Pali armed forces and leadership and see how long it lasts.

the IDF should be occupying Gaza at this very moment

103 wiffersnapper  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:41:07am

Yeah, not that bad. Still don't like him.

104 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:41:14am

re: #26 Gus 802

... For instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made it harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation. That is why I am committed to working with American Muslims to ensure that they can fulfill zakat.

What he's referring to here is that the Internal Revenue Code disallows a tax deduction for contributions to a foreign charity. Contributions have to be made through an IRS approved charitable organization in the US. That makes it a little more transparent about where the money is actually going. Changing that rule would allow tax-deductible contributions to Hamas front charities, with no oversight whatever.

... And today I am announcing a new global effort with the Organization of the Islamic Conference to eradicate polio. ...

That's nice, since it was the Imams in Northern Nigeria that let polio back out of the box by claiming that the vaccine was to sterilize Muslims.

105 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:41:15am

re: #75 Killgore Trout

Pic of the day?
Yahoo pic

heh.

I don't understand the title for the pics: Israeli troops invade Gaza

106 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:41:17am

re: #80 Occasional Reader

The three statements quoted at the top of this thread are brass tacks.

I'm still reading the whole thing, but those are undeniably strong statements.

107 CommonCents  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:41:23am

Resistance through violence and killing is wrong and does not succeed.

That is such a Ghandi phrase. It's bull crap and factually inaccurate. If the Palistinian people should resist through violence and killing they should do so against the subjugation they face from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, [put your acronym here]. It's not Israel keeping them down.

108 joo-liz  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:41:25am

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

Rhetorical question?

109 doppelganglander  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:41:26am

re: #78 Nevergiveup

Why is he uniquely positioned?

Because he's usually on his knees groveling before them?

110 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:41:50am

re: #19 Charles

There's plenty to criticize in the speech, but no more than in any George W. Bush speech. Bush may not have brought up slavery, but he certainly said lots of the same feel-good phrases about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and Obama has no monopoly on the "two-state solution" stuff.

Your right, it's no more or less good or bad than any speech that Bush had given, and that itself is the problem.

We don't deal with how Muslims think. We don't tell them that when we use the phrase "innocent lives" we mean innocent. To them, the WTC victims were not innocent. So, we say innocent, they hear "unlike the infidels we killed in NYC."

And this is just one example. These speeches are written by diplomats. And you know what a diplomat is, it's an honest man who has been asked to lie in another country.

Comparing this speech to Bush, or any other president who has said the same thing, over and over, year after year, doesn't make the speech any more effective.

This direction has not worked for 50 years. And the Arab world knows just how to respond to this rhetoric. They've had many years of practice.

No, this speech was basically worthless, as many speeches have been in the past.

I give Obama no points for this.

111 crown_of_feathers  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:42:01am

One can see the reaction to this speech across the Muslim world, and among the leftist grovelers in the media: "It's all very fine and eloquent, but we want to see action!"

"Action" in this instance, of course, translates to squeezing Israel until it is suicidally untenable.

112 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:42:23am

re: #105 unrealizedviewpoint

That's the title of all the pics from Gaza. It's been like that for months.

113 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:42:38am

re: #74 Buck

The Holocaust was bad, on the other hand Occupation is bad.

Charles? Did you see that? It looks to me like classic Dkos moral equivilance.

It is - see this by Carl in Jerusalem:
Obama's moral equivalence of the day

114 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:43:01am

When Obama links items like the Holocaust and the Palestinian situation - even unintentionally, it gives the Arab regimes and the Islamists still more encouragement to use and debase the language of the Holocaust so as to further undermine Israel's existence.

They'll continue to trot out the canards and tripe about Israel engaging in genocide and ethnic cleansing, when all you see over the past 60 years is that Israel has forcibly removed Jewish populations from parts of the West Bank and all of Gaza - the first time in millennium that such events have taken place - all in the name of peace with a group that has no such interests.

The speech isn't going to be seen the same way that the West and Western media sees it.

Obama's speech was written in such a way that the audience in the Middle East will take away something quite different than what he said. What Obama says and how it's interpreted in the Middle East are two separate and distinct things. How things are couched and context are important, and Obama misses the boat as I note above.

The regimes will ignore any calls to action on their part to stop the extremists, all while encouraging the jihad against the US. They wouldn't remain in power otherwise.

115 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:43:16am

re: #98 Nevergiveup

MLK carries little weight in some quarters.

116 joo-liz  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:43:20am

re: #105 unrealizedviewpoint

I don't understand the title for the pics: Israeli troops invade Gaza

That is bizarre, any way to screen cap that?

Anyone who doesn't look at the images will get the completely wrong impression.

117 Kragar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:43:41am

re: #100 Occasional Reader

I repeat my plea once again. Anyone? Bueller?

The Pali leadership lacks a Monopoly on violence. Any treaties and negotiations they enter into are meaningless.

118 VegasRick  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:43:57am

I'll save my praise for this clown when the [bigoted word]s stop trying to kill everything. Until then "it's just words".

119 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:44:00am

re: #98 Nevergiveup

I thought-what did MLK say about not taking notice of the color of someone's skin? And he is also white? And he was 5 fuckin years old?

I love it when liberals say that Obama has all this wonderful credibility in (the Middle East, Africa, etc.) becuase he "looks more like they do". So... by the same logic, he'll have more difficulty negotiating with Europeans, right? "No, of course not!" Ah... so you're saying, white heads of state tend to be open-minded, but black and brown heads of state tend to be bigots? "[head explodes]"

120 Gus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:44:23am

re: #104 Son of the Black Dog

That's nice, since it was the Imams in Northern Nigeria that let polio back out of the box by claiming that the vaccine was to sterilize Muslims.

Excellent on both points. The moment I read the line about "charitable giving" I thought about "money laundering" to Hamas. Hadn't thought about the Muslim and Imams aspect regarding polio (re vaccinations) but glad you brought that up.

121 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:44:30am

Why does the POTUS feel the need to address the Islamic world? Does he feel the need toaddress teh Jewish or Christian or Hindu world? Also since when is it the job of the POTUS to counter negative images of Islam?

I did not vote for this guy.

122 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:44:46am

re: #97 joo-liz

His take on the settlements were new...


Same word Bush used

Bush

123 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:44:52am

re: #112 Killgore Trout

That's the title of all the pics from Gaza. It's been like that for months.

That's disgusting! These are recent pics (today), not 6 months ago. WTF?

124 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:44:59am

Obama's statements about the settlements are absolutely no different from anything George Bush said, by the way.

And both of them realized that they were just mouthing platitudes, I'm sure. Calling on Israel to stop the settlements is the sop they throw to the Arab world. It means no more and no less than when Bush said it.

125 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:45:14am

re: #100 Occasional Reader

I repeat my plea once again. Anyone? Bueller?

Honestly who knows? Under what agreement? Oslo? Hebron Protocol? Wye River?

126 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:45:31am

re: #82 avanti

And as previously posted by me, the headline was completely out of context.

And as I've been trying to point out to you in many posts - its about the place where PB0 gave this statement, i.e. in a Muslim country hostile to Israel, not about the context (any reporter can choose with what he leads his story!).

127 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:45:33am

he really lauded islam for all the alleged contributions it has made to civilization.
in direct contrast to how he has never seemed proud of america or discussed any of the real amazing contributions his own country has made to world.
his thinking is fundamentally flawed.

128 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:45:42am

re: #116 joo-liz

Search yahoo pics for Gaza. They all have that title. It's been like that since the Gaza incursion. 9 months or so.

129 jamgarr  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:46:25am

re: #44 Cygnus

He has a pretty good speechwriter. His voice will always annoy me, though.

He has that rise in the last syllable of his sentences which is only slightly removed from Valley-speak.

130 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:46:25am

re: #116 joo-liz

That is bizarre, any way to screen cap that?

Anyone who doesn't look at the images will get the completely wrong impression.

In no way is this laziness or ineptitude on AP's part. Bastards!

131 SlothB77  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:46:39am

could have been a lot worse.

132 joo-liz  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:46:40am

re: #114 lawhawk

When Obama links items like the Holocaust and the Palestinian situation - even unintentionally, it gives the Arab regimes and the Islamists still more encouragement to use and debase the language of the Holocaust so as to further undermine Israel's existence.

They'll continue to trot out the canards and tripe about Israel engaging in genocide and ethnic cleansing, when all you see over the past 60 years is that Israel has forcibly removed Jewish populations from parts of the West Bank and all of Gaza - the first time in millennium that such events have taken place - all in the name of peace with a group that has no such interests.

The speech isn't going to be seen the same way that the West and Western media sees it.

Obama's speech was written in such a way that the audience in the Middle East will take away something quite different than what he said. What Obama says and how it's interpreted in the Middle East are two separate and distinct things. How things are couched and context are important, and Obama misses the boat as I note above.

The regimes will ignore any calls to action on their part to stop the extremists, all while encouraging the jihad against the US. They wouldn't remain in power otherwise.

Right on. I think that the way it will be interpreted and the way it was intended are going to be very different.

I believe Obama meant to speak about the Holocaust and 'Palestinian suffering' separately, trying to take on holocaust denial face on, but at the same time "give" a bit and acknowledge some of their claims.

The net effect will most certainly be a perceived equivalence.

133 JohnnyReb  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:46:59am

re: #119 Occasional Reader

I love it when liberals say that Obama has all this wonderful credibility in (the Middle East, Africa, etc.) becuase he "looks more like they do". So... by the same logic, he'll have more difficulty negotiating with Europeans, right? "No, of course not!" Ah... so you're saying, white heads of state tend to be open-minded, but black and brown heads of state tend to be bigots? "[head explodes]"

Give it up. When I try to do that I usually wind up pulling a muscle. It ain't worth it.

134 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:47:18am

I was dreading this speech, it turned out better than expected with fewer negatives than I was projecting, of course he threw the settlement bone to the dogs, but the words on the holocaust and 9/11 I wasn't expecting. Kudos for those segments.

135 JamesW  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:47:18am

#74 The Holocaust was bad, on the other hand Occupation is bad.

Charles? Did you see that? It looks to me like classic Dkos moral equivilance

Limbaugh was tewiggin off on that. His monolgues hit Obama as hard as Palin's community organizer remark.

And BTW, there was no mention of the nearly 1 million Jews expelled from the Arab world.

136 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:47:44am

From the previous thread. (Posted by yma?)

MK Danny Danon (Likud): “The president has crossed all lines. His implied comparison between the Israeli government and the Nazi regime said everything. He has made a covenant with the Arab world and rewarded it for more than 60 years of aggression.”

MK Aryeh Eldad (National Union): “Obama makes a shocking parallel between the destruction of European Jewry and the suffering that the Arabs of Israel brought upon themselves when they declared war on Israel.”

MK Eldad: How dare Obama compare Arab refugee suffering to the six million Jews murdered in the Holocaust?

“If Obama does not understand the difference between them, perhaps he will understand it better when he visits the Buchenwald concentration camp in the comings days. And if he doesn’t understand it even there, then Islam will once again teach it to him, just as it taught his predecessor on 9/11.”

Regarding Obama’s praise of Islam, Eldad said, “Obama spoke more from his own heart and less from genuine understanding of the direction Islam is taking around the world. Whoever thinks that the establishment of a Palestinian state will stop the war in Darfur, India, Chechnya, and Europe will apparently soon learn that Israel is not willing to be the ‘pound of flesh’ that he wants to throw to the Muslims.”

MK Dr. Michael Ben-Ari (National Union) said: “The Zionist vision of the rebuilding of the Land of Israel is stronger than any president or government. We outlasted Pharaoh, and we will outlast Obama.”

137 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:47:59am

re: #106 BigPapa

The three statements quoted at the top of this thread are brass tacks.

1) Al Qaeda carried out 9/11: That is a BARE MINIMUM for a POTUS to say.

2) The Holcaust was very bad and must not be repeated: Ditto.

3) Palestinians must abandon violence: Okay, good. But hardly the first time that demand/plea has been made... and then it promptly gets watered down by comparing their situation to that of slaves, and via moral equivalence between Israelis buillding tiny villages, and Palestinians blowing up busloads of innocents.

138 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:48:01am

re: #124 Charles

Obama's statements about the settlements are absolutely no different from anything George Bush said, by the way.

And both of them realized that they were just mouthing platitudes, I'm sure. Calling on Israel to stop the settlements is the sop they throw to the Arab world. It means no more and no less than when Bush said it.

And nothing else said in the speech was worthwhile. Same old stuff, the Arabs have been hearing it for years, and ignoring it. Obama needs to get a new script, this one has been floating around too long, it's out of date, tired and worn.

139 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:48:24am

re: #71 Ojoe

Obama is uniquely positioned to talk sense to the Islamic world & they should listen.

If they wanted to listen, he wouldn't have had to repeat most of what has been said many times before, over many years. Think of the analogy of trying to explain evolution to an "anti Darwinist" and you may understand the issue better.

140 kynna  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:48:25am
There’s much more to the overwhelming misogyny of the Islamic world than simply a lack of education, and this is a much bigger problem than Obama’s speech seems to recognize.

"Lack of education" and "denial of education" are somewhat different. He could have said it more strongly, but I'm glad he used the "d" word here.

He could have mentioned that those who actually try to teach the female population are frequently murdered and/or tortured. He also could have mentioned the laws that keep women from going out alone, or with a platonic friend. The laws that make it a husband's right to abuse his wife. The prosecution of victims of rape for "adultery".

I do agree, though, that women should be able to cover their hair if they wish. It's that "if they wish" that seems to be the sticking point. And the covering of the entire female body as demanded by law ... because the men want to be animals rather than control their urges? Please.

But mentioning any of that (ever) might embarrass his hosts. Mustn't have that.

141 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:48:39am

I've just switched my avatar to "Hamas Mouse", in honor of the occasion

/I miss the rooster

142 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:48:48am

re: #124 Charles

Obama's statements about the settlements are absolutely no different from anything George Bush said, by the way.

And both of them realized that they were just mouthing platitudes, I'm sure. Calling on Israel to stop the settlements is the sop they throw to the Arab world. It means no more and no less than when Bush said it.

Did Pres. Bush speak about the settlements before a Muslim audience?

143 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:18am

re: #134 Thanos

I was dreading this speech, it turned out better than expected with fewer negatives than I was projecting, of course he threw the settlement bone to the dogs, but the words on the holocaust and 9/11 I wasn't expecting. Kudos for those segments.

And nothing new Thanos. Same old positions, and the Arab world will take this to "heart" about as well as anything else we have said in the past.

What was new about it?

144 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:20am

re: #93 buzzsawmonkey

Obama said this:

Sorry, no.

If Obama wants a "Palestine," there's one just over the Jordan River; it's called, interestingly enough, "Jordan"--and it sits on the bulk of what was called "Palestine" under the British Mandate.

Settlements? To the Arabs, Tel Aviv--which just celebrated its 100th birthday--is a "settlement."

"Humanitarian crisis in Gaza?" That is self-inflicted by the Arabs, and can be solved by Arab nations which are rolling in oil wealth. Any aspect of a "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza that can be traced to Israel is due solely to the murderous regime in power there, and its active support by the populace.

Israel has no obligation to the Arabs calling themselves "Palestinian" that it has not met and re-met many times over.

Quoted in full, so it can be read again - and with applause, because this is exactly what neither any Arab country nor the MFM will ever accept or write about.

145 3 wood  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:48am

I noticed that Obama took yet another swipe at Bush in his speech this morning.

With regard to this ongoing finger pointing and blaming of Bush, I offer the following for consideration, FWIW.

When I was promoted to my first executive position in my late 20's, with a new Masters degree, big talk and ideas but little experience, I had a lot of problems on the job to deal with too. And I constantly blamed the person I replaced for them for a while.

After a few months of this, my boss came into my office one day and in discussing how things were going he related a story about a new executive who was going through his desk on Day One in the new job, and in a drawer he found 3 envelopes and a note that simply said:

"To my successor, open envelope 1 on your first day on the job, open envelope 2 after 6 months, and open envelope 3 a year from today. Good luck." and it was signed by the person he replaced.

So he opened the first envelope and it said "For the first 6 months, blame me for everything." So he did, and it worked for a while, but after 6 months the problems were still not fixed and people were getting tired of that excuse. So on the 7th month he opened the 2nd envelope and it said "For the next 6 months blame everything on the system". So he did that too, but it fixed no problems and people got tired of that excuse too.

So on his 1st anniversary and up to his butt in alligators on the job, he opened the 3rd envelope and it said "Now prepare 3 new envelopes for your successor."

The morale of the story is, everyone deals with the problems that confront them as they come. Constantly finger pointing and whining wears thin very quickly and does nothing to fix the problems. You also readily accept the results of the things that were done right before, so stop whining about the problems too.

It's time for Obama and the left to stop blaming Bush for everything under the sun. Obama won and the Democrats are in control of Congress. So stop whining and actually fix the problems if you are so dang smart.

Just my 2 cents.

146 Lynn B.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:51am

Haven't read the whole speech or the thread yet but not getting a good feeling.

Daniel Pipes mentions this:

Barack Obama's mention of "seven million American Muslims" in the course of his rambling and complex six-thousand-word address to the Muslim world from Cairo symbolizes the whole message.

Study after study has found that demographic figure about three times too high. But Islamist organizations like the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the Islamic Society of North America relentlessly promote the notion of seven or even ten million American Muslims. Obama's accepting their version amounts to a giveaway, a cheap way to win the approbation of Islamists who so widely influence Muslim opinion.

There are links in the original.

147 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:55am

re: #105 unrealizedviewpoint

I don't understand the title for the pics: Israeli troops invade Gaza

Men in masks: check
Weapons: check
Hamas symbols:check
POTUS on TV: check
Associated Press: check

What is it you don't understand?

148 bloodnok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:56am

re: #134 Thanos

I was dreading this speech, it turned out better than expected with fewer negatives than I was projecting, of course he threw the settlement bone to the dogs, but the words on the holocaust and 9/11 I wasn't expecting. Kudos for those segments.

I completely agree.

149 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:58am

re: #139 Naso Tang

It is a small hope that they will actually listen, yes you are right about that.
.

BBL

150 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:50:01am

re: #126 yma o hyd

And as I've been trying to point out to you in many posts - its about the place where PB0 gave this statement, i.e. in a Muslim country hostile to Israel, not about the context (any reporter can choose with what he leads his story!).

I thought he made the speech in Egypt ?

151 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:50:20am

re: #124 Charles

Obama's statements about the settlements are absolutely no different from anything George Bush said, by the way.

And both of them realized that they were just mouthing platitudes, I'm sure. Calling on Israel to stop the settlements is the sop they throw to the Arab world. It means no more and no less than when Bush said it.

I am sorry but from everything I have read that is just not true. Mitchell and Obama are not showing ANY flexibility for natural growth and are Demanding Israel stop completely. They are even disavowing all the agreements the Bush Administration had with Israel about natural growth. In addition while The Bush Administration mentioned "Settlements" the onus was on the Arabs to halt Terrorism ( a word never mentioned) and incitement, not on Israel to stop it's carpenters.

152 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:50:38am

re: #117 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Pali leadership lacks a Monopoly on violence. Any treaties and negotiations they enter into are meaningless.

Okay, but again; that's not something the rest of the world can ultimately do for them (well... we COULD, but that's definitely not what the folks who bleat on about the "need for a Palestinian state" have in mind). And it has zero to do with getting more chunks of land ceded to them. Finally, there are all sorts of recognized states that do not have full "monopoly [kinda sorta] of violence" control over all their national territory; Colombia comes to mind.

153 califleftyb  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:50:55am

Question: Is the U.S. bound by the letter President Bush provided Israel as part of the Gaza disengagement deal, which was explicitly relied upon by the Israeli Knesset in voting to approve the removal of every settlement and soldier from Gaza?

Apparently the Obama administration insists that only Israel alone is bound by the "roadmap" but the US isn't bound to it's obligations. At the time of the disengagement from Gaza, there was a written agreement between the U.S. and Israel on the principles governing the later negotiation of final status issues including settlements, in exchange for Israel undertaking the extraordinary political, social and economic costs of that disengagement and the even greater military and strategic risks of turning over Gaza to the Palestinian Authority. Now, can any nation believe that Obama will adhere to previously negotiated obligations? Can the US now rescind its agreement and commitment and restore the lost world of Gush Katif, or the lost security of southern Israel, or the lives that thousands of rockets traumatized, or the property that was destroyed? Israel ended up having to fight a war in Gaza because of the disengagement. No good deed goes unpunished.

154 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:51:07am

re: #142 MandyManners

Did Pres. Bush speak about the settlements before a Muslim audience?

Probably

155 Wendya  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:51:07am

re: #24 lawhawk

He posits that the problems in the region are the result of colonialism. Sorry, but we're nearly 60 years after the end colonialism and these regimes are in control of their own destinies.

Colonialism is the "new" slavery.

156 2by2  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:51:11am

re: #105 unrealizedviewpoint

I don't understand the title for the pics: Israeli troops invade Gaza

Seems to be a well honored tradition of the MSM to put in some derogatory comment about Israel, no matter the context.
There must be an explanation for these 'freedom fighters' to carry their weapons and conceal their faces when watching a speech by the president of the US.
///////////

157 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:51:25am
For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America’s founding./blockquote>

*pssst* Mr. President. It was a war that cost 600,000 American lives to free the slaves and even open the possibility to win full and equal rights. I certainly think of a 4 year war and hundreds of thousands dead as "violence."

158 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:51:45am

Thanks, Charles. This is a great thread. I agree that the speech is overall pretty good, with some big disappointments. Nevertheless, it'll be something to discuss for a long time.

Let's give BHO credit where he has earned it, and continue to criticize him when he is wrong.

159 joo-liz  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:52:01am

Give a hand, and they try to take the whole arm:

JERUSALEM – Israel dismantled on Wednesday a military checkpoint that had significantly impeded Palestinian travel in the West Bank in an apparent goodwill gesture a day before President Barack Obama's much-anticipated address to the Muslim and Arab world.

But Palestinians said the removal of a major obstacle on the road from Ramallah, the seat of the Palestinian government, to the northern West Bank didn't address the broader need to ease the movement of people and goods in the Palestinian territories.

160 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:52:37am
161 RoughRider  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:52:55am

Can Queen Elizabeth download the speech on iTunes yet?

162 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:52:57am

re: #38 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Barry rolls it straight down the middle and get the 7-10 split.

he doesn't usually get 8 pins with one ball .... his average is about 3.

163 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:53:21am

re: #63 pink freud

It was surreal to watch this arrogant bastard presume to lecture the Middle Eastern world. The applause was moderate and sporadic with the greatest applause coming when he spoke of rights for women. They liked it when he spoke in farsi (?) and I wonder what they thought when he said "mohammed, peace be unto them". LOL

Something about an American president presuming to lecture the entire middle eastern world about this new and improved World of 0bana seems like one big joke. (And I'm American ...think how they feel about it there.)

they must resent him. they know on some level, he was lying and pandering as he mentioned their grand accomplishments just to make them feel good abt. their stagnant culture.
he was trying to ingratiate himself w/ them.
ultimately, as usual this is all abt. him and his grand magnificence.

164 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:53:24am

re: #151 Nevergiveup

I am sorry but from everything I have read that is just not true. Mitchell and Obama are not showing ANY flexibility for natural growth and are Demanding Israel stop completely. They are even disavowing all the agreements the Bush Administration had with Israel about natural growth. In addition while The Bush Administration mentioned "Settlements" the onus was on the Arabs to halt Terrorism ( a word never mentioned) and incitement, not on Israel to stop it's carpenters.

And Netanyahu basically said, "forget it." Both sides know that this is a game intended to manipulate the Arab world into believing there's equal pressure on Israel to make "concessions." Has anything really changed on the ground? Not that I can see.

165 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:53:33am

re: #105 unrealizedviewpoint

I don't understand the title for the pics: Israeli troops invade Gaza

That is the meta title for the entire 352 picture slideshow. The bias is from yahoo.

166 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:53:38am

re: #158 Golem Akbar

Thanks, Charles. This is a great thread. I agree that the speech is overall pretty good, with some big disappointments. Nevertheless, it'll be something to discuss for a long time.

Let's give BHO credit where he has earned it, and continue to criticize him when he is wrong.

What did he earn? What did he say that hasn't been said before? ANd what did he say that will make a difference in how the Muslim world will respond to world issues?

167 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:53:59am

re: #162 _RememberTonyC

he doesn't usually get 8 pins with one ball .... his average is about 3.

He did better than expected, but has no chance to pick up the spare.

168 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:54:10am
169 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:54:24am

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

And nothing else said in the speech was worthwhile. Same old stuff, the Arabs have been hearing it for years, and ignoring it. Obama needs to get a new script, this one has been floating around too long, it's out of date, tired and worn.

Yes, it is long past time for the US to say "If the Palestinians are going to have a state, they have to accept Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. If they cannot do that, then the US will consider them nothing but an enemy entity. If they continue terrorism against Israel, they will be considered a terrorist entity, and the US will allow Israelis to sue in the US for damages due to such terrorism, any organization giving the Palestinians aid."
And
"If the Palestinians want their state to be without Jews, then absolutely no Arabs should be allowed "back" in Israel."

170 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:54:30am

re: #136 MandyManners

Yep, 'twas me ...

Thanks for reposting!

171 redstateredneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:54:39am

re: #129 jamgarr

He has that rise in the last syllable of his sentences which is only slightly removed from Valley-speak.


The pause after is where the "ya' know?" would go.

172 Cygnus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:54:41am

re: #162 _RememberTonyC

he doesn't usually get 8 pins with one ball .... his average is about 3.

He has a wicked hook - the ball goes too far to the left and misses the head pin!

173 ointmentfly  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:55:33am

re: #124 Charles

What would be priceless is to get the audio from every post speech sermon in every mosque in the middle east and pull quotes from it. The fact is that Obama and Bush can say whatever they want, but it seems like the faithful followers will wait for the translation from their local Imam. They carry a little more heft in the region than the POTUS.

174 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:56:15am

re: #151 Nevergiveup

In addition while The Bush Administration mentioned "Settlements" the onus was on the Arabs to halt Terrorism ( a word never mentioned) and incitement, not on Israel to stop it's carpenters.

THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. Stop the rockets, stop the incitement for violence, stop the terror.... and stop the settlements.

Israel HAS given land (and dismantled settlements) before.... FOR PEACE.

175 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:56:16am

re: #169 Kosh's Shadow

Yes, it is long past time for the US to say "If the Palestinians are going to have a state, they have to accept Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. If they cannot do that, then the US will consider them nothing but an enemy entity. If they continue terrorism against Israel, they will be considered a terrorist entity, and the US will allow Israelis to sue in the US for damages due to such terrorism, any organization giving the Palestinians aid."
And
"If the Palestinians want their state to be without Jews, then absolutely no Arabs should be allowed "back" in Israel."

We do that and the Gulf states would cut off oil quicker than they scream "Death to Israel".

176 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:56:45am

re: #169 Kosh's Shadow

Yes, it is long past time for the US to say "If the Palestinians are going to have a state, they have to accept Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. If they cannot do that, then the US will consider them nothing but an enemy entity. If they continue terrorism against Israel, they will be considered a terrorist entity, and the US will allow Israelis to sue in the US for damages due to such terrorism, any organization giving the Palestinians aid."
And
"If the Palestinians want their state to be without Jews, then absolutely no Arabs should be allowed "back" in Israel."

Come on! In the real world, do you honestly expect any US president to say those things in a speech to the Muslim world?

Not gonna happen. Didn't happen with Bush, and it didn't happen with Obama.

I for one didn't expect anything more than what he delivered. I expected less, to be honest, and I was slightly surprised to see even this much reality in his speech.

177 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:56:59am

re: #127 nyc redneck

he really lauded islam for all the alleged contributions it has made to civilization.
in direct contrast to how he has never seemed proud of america or discussed any of the real amazing contributions his own country has made to world.
his thinking is fundamentally flawed.

It was obvious the speech was written by some shiny-eyed idealistic wet-behind-the-ears kid. Even the Muslim World can't ignore the naivete he conveyed.

178 Kragar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:06am

re: #174 Buck

Israel HAS given land (and dismantled settlements) before.... FOR PEACE.

Well, they gave land, still waiting on the peace part.

179 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:07am

re: #137 Occasional Reader

1) Al Qaeda carried out 9/11: That is a BARE MINIMUM for a POTUS to say.

2) The Holcaust was very bad and must not be repeated: Ditto.

3) Palestinians must abandon violence: Okay, good. But hardly the first time that demand/plea has been made... and then it promptly gets watered down by comparing their situation to that of slaves, and via moral equivalence between Israelis buillding tiny villages, and Palestinians blowing up busloads of innocents.

He didn't just make the 3 points you stated: he elaborated on them, on the conspiracy theories associated with them. That is remarkably pointed.

However, those were somewhat retarded by the noted equivalence with the Holocaust, therefore the 'brass tacks wrapped in a fluffy sock' comment. Therefore, the speech as a whole, meh.

However, can we look at separate parts of the speech as good/bad?

180 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:19am

re: #164 Charles

And Netanyahu basically said, "forget it." Both sides know that this is a game intended to manipulate the Arab world into believing there's equal pressure on Israel to make "concessions." Has anything really changed on the ground? Not that I can see.


I think there is a not-so-hidden message, here. If anyone is expecting change, it will have to come from the Arab-Muslim world. Too bad Obama didn't highlight more of what the US has done, and shed it blood doing it, for the Muslim world. But that'll have to wait for another day.

181 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:23am

re: #173 ointmentfly

What would be priceless is to get the audio from every post speech sermon in every mosque in the middle east and pull quotes from it. The fact is that Obama and Bush can say whatever they want, but it seems like the faithful followers will wait for the translation from their local Imam. They carry a little more heft in the region than the POTUS.

Precisely

182 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:33am

re: #129 jamgarr

He has that rise in the last syllable of his sentences which is only slightly removed from Valley-speak.

I'm not sure to whom you are comparing him.
IMO it is not even funny how much better he can deliver a speech than the bumbling Bush. It is his forte.
And I say this despite my utter contempt for his sleazy dishonest policies.

183 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:36am

re: #164 Charles

And Netanyahu basically said, "forget it." Both sides know that this is a game intended to manipulate the Arab world into believing there's equal pressure on Israel to make "concessions." Has anything really changed on the ground? Not that I can see.

It's only been about 9 days since Bibi met Obama. But from the reports the "love" has gone out of the USA-Israel relationship. And time will tell. But the tone and emphasis has changed. It would be nice to think it's only the "game" being played to hoodwink the Arabs, but I don't read it that way. And there is nothing in Obama's history ( his associations and appointments ) to think his Administration will be as friendly as Bush's was to put it mildly.

184 VegasRick  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:51am

re: #137 Occasional Reader

1) Al Qaeda carried out 9/11: That is a BARE MINIMUM for a POTUS to say.

2) The Holcaust was very bad and must not be repeated: Ditto.

3) Palestinians must abandon violence: Okay, good. But hardly the first time that demand/plea has been made... and then it promptly gets watered down by comparing their situation to that of slaves, and via moral equivalence between Israelis buillding tiny villages, and Palestinians blowing up busloads of innocents.

Did he mention his "muslim roots"? This is starting to border on the "Did you know John Kerry was in vietnam" mantra.

185 KenJen  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:57am

re: #63 pink freud

It was surreal to watch this arrogant bastard presume to lecture the Middle Eastern world. The applause was moderate and sporadic with the greatest applause coming when he spoke of rights for women. They liked it when he spoke in farsi (?) and I wonder what they thought when he said "mohammed, peace be unto them". LOL

Something about an American president presuming to lecture the entire middle eastern world about this new and improved World of 0bana seems like one big joke. (And I'm American ...think how they feel about it there.)


After reporting on the speech this morning, Dianne Sawyer made sure to say how many rounds of applause were given and that he got a standing ovation at the end. What a dumb thing to report.

186 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:58:14am
187 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:58:18am

re: #173 ointmentfly

What would be priceless is to get the audio from every post speech sermon in every mosque in the middle east and pull quotes from it. The fact is that Obama and Bush can say whatever they want, but it seems like the faithful followers will wait for the translation from their local Imam. They carry a little more heft in the region than the POTUS.

And the only NEW points that Obama made in the speech was items like "The US is a Muslim nation" and that "Islam contributed so much to the history of Europe" and a lot of other platitudes that will simply boost the Arab world into believing that they are right in all of this, and that the rest of the west (and Israel) are wrong.

Worthless.

188 kynna  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:58:33am

re: #157 Russkilitlover

Grammer school kid to President Obama: "In what war did most Americans die?"

President Obama: "That's above my pay-grade."

189 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:58:53am

re: #175 FurryOldGuyJeans

We do that and the Gulf states would cut off oil quicker than they scream "Death to Israel".

Bullshit, they need our money. It would get here one way or another.

190 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:59:17am

re: #176 Charles

and I was slightly surprised to see even this much reality in his speech.

I suppose it could have been worse; that's about the best I can say.

But can we at least agree that NPR and the like are rather ridiculous in hailing this speech as the greatest thing since sliced bread, a whole new beginning, etc.?

191 NonNativeTexan  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:59:19am

re: #184 VegasRick

Did he mention his "muslim roots"? This is starting to border on the "Did you know John Kerry was in vietnam" mantra.

Yes he did, he also emphasized he is a Christian.
Give him credit for that.

192 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:59:28am

re: #185 KenJen

After reporting on the speech this morning, Dianne Sawyer made sure to say how many rounds of applause were given and that he got a standing ovation at the end. What a dumb thing to report.

You expecting the FMSM to not magnify their Messiah's glory and magnificence?

193 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:59:33am

re: #174 Buck

THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. Stop the rockets, stop the incitement for violence, stop the terror.... and stop the settlements.

Israel HAS given land (and dismantled settlements) before.... FOR PEACE.

That might be why Israel has given up land, but they never received peace, just more terrorism. They shouldn't give up another grain of sand until the Palis show they are willing to make peace with the Jewish state of Israel.

194 tradewind  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:59:39am

Speech.... yeah coulda been better, coulda been worse.
Since Al Q has lost so much support in the muslim world, ragging on them wasn't taking a very big risk. I still can't understand why it's BHO's job to protect the image of muslims in America... they should start doing a better job of that themselves.
Bottom line as well... why was this such a priority for TOTUS? We have many more important issues at home, AND abroad .

195 tradewind  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:00:45am

re: #193 Kosh's Shadow

It's not about the real estate, anyway. Never was.

196 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:00:52am

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

Bullshit, they need our money. It would get here one way or another.

Even a temporary shortage would cripple our economy. The Gulf states would be able to weather one easier than we could.

197 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:00:54am

re: #190 Occasional Reader

I suppose it could have been worse; that's about the best I can say.

But can we at least agree that NPR and the like are rather ridiculous in hailing this speech as the greatest thing since sliced bread, a whole new beginning, etc.?

Absolutely agreed on that. It was no groundbreaker, that's for sure.

198 Pianobuff  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:00:57am

From the speech:

"That is why I strongly reaffirmed America’s commitment to seek a world in which no nations hold nuclear weapons. And any nation – including Iran – should have the right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. That commitment is at the core of the Treaty, and it must be kept for all who fully abide by it. And I am hopeful that all countries in the region can share in this goal."

Trying to parse this out a little bit:

- Is access to Iranian facilities the bellwether for next moves?
- In the last sentence, is there a veiled reference to Israel's (shhh) program?

199 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:01:14am

My take on the highlights:

1) Good on Obama for not being a total sycophant. Charles is right; this could've been a lot worse.
2) I expect this speech, even as mild as it was, will garner quite a bit of outrage from the Islamotards (and quite possibly the liberal Left as well!). Obama was treading lightly here, which is good for his health as well as politically savvy; but the Islamotards will read the rebuke loud and clear.
3) What it boils down to is that the Arabs have been indoctrinated in their hatred for hundreds of years. One speech isn't going to even begin to change that, but at least it was put out there for them to hear.

200 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:01:31am

re: #176 Charles

Come on! In the real world, do you honestly expect any US president to say those things in a speech to the Muslim world?

Not gonna happen. Didn't happen with Bush, and it didn't happen with Obama.

I for one didn't expect anything more than what he delivered. I expected less, to be honest, and I was slightly surprised to see even this much reality in his speech.

I didn't mean that I expected what I said in the Cairo speech. No, this speech was better than I expected.
However, the attitude that should be coming from DC should put pressure on the Palestinians, not keep asking Israel to give more concessions when all they get is more terrorism in return.

201 Gang of One  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:01:35am

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

Bullshit, they need our money. It would get here one way or another.

Perhaps not, Walter. India, China and Russia would be grateful customers, don't you think?

202 kynna  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:01:53am

re: #194 tradewind

Speech.... yeah coulda been better, coulda been worse.
Since Al Q has lost so much support in the muslim world, ragging on them wasn't taking a very big risk. I still can't understand why it's BHO's job to protect the image of muslims in America... they should start doing a better job of that themselves.
Bottom line as well... why was this such a priority for TOTUS? We have many more important issues at home, AND abroad .

Unfortunately, radical Islamics are gaining power in a nuclear armed nation. It will always be a priority. This is his strategy. It's failed every time it's been tried, but for some reason, the American people want to try again. Definition of insanity?

203 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:02:15am

re: #193 Kosh's Shadow

That might be why Israel has given up land, but they never received peace, just more terrorism. They shouldn't give up another grain of sand until the Palis show they are willing to make peace with the Jewish state of Israel.

Well, the peace with Egypt is holding, and I would not have given it a chance after Sadat was killed. Yes, I know we pay them to keep the peace.... but if I thought the Islamists only wanted money...

204 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:02:29am

re: #196 FurryOldGuyJeans

Even a temporary shortage would cripple our economy. The Gulf states would be able to weather one easier than we could.

No it wouldn't. But I'm not going to argue with you over it.

205 zelnaga  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:02:30am

re: #4 Occasional Reader

Um... Charles, are you favorably impressed with Obama's implicit comparsion of the situation of Palestinians to that of slaves in pre-Emancipation America?

That's not how I interpreted it. I interpreted it more as an implicit "if black people can come as far as they have in a situation 10x as worse than the one you're in, surely you can do the same".

206 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:02:33am

re: #164 Charles

And Netanyahu basically said, "forget it." Both sides know that this is a game intended to manipulate the Arab world into believing there's equal pressure on Israel to make "concessions." Has anything really changed on the ground? Not that I can see.

And that's it, isn't it. How about giving up the game about the settlements and getting on to the real issues? The fact that he continues to push the nonsense about settlements means that the regimes continue to use it as a sledgehammer against Israel while avoiding their own culpability for what they've done to the Palestinians for generations. After all, Israel hasn't forced Gazans to live in refugee camps since 1948 - that was Egypt who refused resettlement. Ditto for Lebanon, Jordan and the rest of the region. They perpetuated the human rights mess to fulfill their own goals, which continue to include the elimination of Israel from their midst.

It's a question of responsibility. The Arabs in the region continue avoiding it - they always find someone else to blame for their condition, rather than admitting that it is their own actions that lead to repercussions, including things like Israeli checkpoints to stop terrorists from attacking and infiltrating into Israel.

207 ointmentfly  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:02:39am

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

I think the middle east in general sees right through Obama like glass. He has to be the most superficial president in history and although he says much, none of it really cuts more than skin deep.

208 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:02:45am

I now feel hunger. Hunger, much like that experienced by African slaves in America. And it's my responsibility as Occasional Reader to confront my hunger by eating lunch. Later.

[pauses, waves, awaits standing ovation]

209 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:03:01am

I confess I've missed the point of the 'speech' and even the visit itself....what's all the fuss about?....is there something to it all?...all style and no substance

210 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:03:17am

re: #198 Pianobuff

From the speech:

"That is why I strongly reaffirmed America’s commitment to seek a world in which no nations hold nuclear weapons. And any nation – including Iran – should have the right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. That commitment is at the core of the Treaty, and it must be kept for all who fully abide by it. And I am hopeful that all countries in the region can share in this goal."

Trying to parse this out a little bit:

- Is access to Iranian facilities the bellwether for next moves?
- In the last sentence, is there a veiled reference to Israel's (shhh) program?

From the previous thread (yma?).

211 kaymad  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:03:18am

Oh Obama! *swoons*.

I like this bit: "That is why there is a mosque in every state of our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab, and to punish those who would deny it". -----As someone who saw an Arab man reprimand a muslim woman (who was not his wife) for not wearing her headscarf properly, that is impressive that we allow muslim woman to be as suppressed here as in muslim countries!

I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year.--- Yeah, because torture so goes against the 'muslim worlds' traditions and morals.

"Now is the time for Palestinians to focus on what they can build". ---Besides bombs I'm not sure what they are really good at building. Maybe cars?

At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel’s right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s I'm sure Israel appreciates that reminder. I mean, didn't they give up territory that they now receive missile attacks from? They need to give more and more.

212 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:03:41am

re: #208 Occasional Reader

I now feel hunger. Hunger, much like that experienced by African slaves in America. And it's my responsibility as Occasional Reader to confront my hunger by eating lunch. Later.

[pauses, waves, awaits standing ovation]

Next thing you know he'll want an upding too...

213 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:03:47am

re: #201 Gang of One

Perhaps not, Walter. India, China and Russia would be grateful customers, don't you think?

They still need our money. They need our expertise. Who do you think manages, build and drills all their oil? Us. If ever one of our oil field workers left in mass, they would be screwed for months.

214 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:04:00am

re: #208 Occasional Reader

I now feel hunger. Hunger, much like that experienced by African slaves in America. And it's my responsibility as Occasional Reader to confront my hunger by eating lunch. Later.

[pauses, waves, awaits standing ovation]

*BRAVO ENCORE*

215 beens21  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:04:13am

I don't recall Bush equating Palestinians to slaves in the US,or saying how great it is that Muslim women have the "right" to wear a hajib. I think the speech shows naivete and a shallow sense of history ( Islam caused the Rennaisance in the West? but they still live in the 7th century).

216 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:04:48am

re: #209 albusteve

I confess I've missed the point of the 'speech' and even the visit itself....what's all the fuss about?....is there something to it all?...all style and no substance

Nothing much really, just a little get acquainted visit to the middle east by their new leader.
/

217 tradewind  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:04:55am

re: #202 kynna

BHO should understand that reaching/changing the hearts and minds of the muslim people is useless given their powerlessness in their own countries.
For this reason, public speeches will do absolutely nothing except keep the leg tingles coming for the MSM.

218 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:04:56am

re: #165 FurryOldGuyJeans

That is the meta title for the entire 352 picture slideshow. The bias is from yahoo.

I think you're right. But not sure.

219 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:04:59am

re: #203 Buck

Well, the peace with Egypt is holding, and I would not have given it a chance after Sadat was killed. Yes, I know we pay them to keep the peace.... but if I thought the Islamists only wanted money...

It is a quite cold peace. Egypt just doesn't want to be defeated again, and they have the land back (except for Gaza, which they don't want.)
However, Egypt is not a friendly place for Israelis, and Egypt did show a TV adaptation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, called "Horseman Without a Horse".

220 Tarkus289  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:05:06am

re: #215 beens21

I don't recall Bush equating Palestinians to slaves in the US,


Condi Rice did.

221 Lynn B.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:05:08am

re: #19 Charles

There's plenty to criticize in the speech, but no more than in any George W. Bush speech. Bush may not have brought up slavery, but he certainly said lots of the same feel-good phrases about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and Obama has no monopoly on the "two-state solution" stuff.

Didn't Condi make the slave comparison at some point in the not too distant past?

222 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:05:26am

re: #212 Leonidas Hoplite

Next thing you know he'll want an upding too...

That's dessert.

223 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:05:33am

re: #210 MandyManners

Not this time - can't recall which Lizard posted it, sorry ...

224 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:05:39am

re: #175 FurryOldGuyJeans

The US does not get most of its oil from the Middle East - that would affect Europe far more harshly than the US. And China and India rely more on the Middle East than the US. US gets the bulk of its oil from North America and the Western Hemisphere (Canada, US, Mexico, Venezuela with Saudi Arabia being a fourth place). The full list of top 15 exporting nations to the US is here.

225 Mithrax  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:06:15am

You know, after reading it, and reading a lot of comments here and abroad I can't shake the feeling that the only place that this is going to give Obama political traction is domestically.

The folks in the Middle East aren't just going to say "well Obama gave a decent speech, let's change!" they're gonna keep on trucking. I think that Israel just got another confirmation that Obama doesn't really give a shit about them. Moreover, while there were some factual points (that Chales Quoted) they were greatly glossed over.

In short, imho, it gave the MSM what it wanted, good sound bites of shit they've been pushing for a while: Israel Bad, Islam not so bad if you don't look too closely, and Obama good.

Glorified campaign speech? I just can't shake that feeling.

226 CommonCents  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:06:19am
And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

Mormons get a pretty bad wrap too. Will you stand up for them wherever negative stereotypes appear?

227 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:06:31am

re: #215 beens21

Islam caused the Rennaisance in the West? .

Sure. They provided a shinning example of how not to live and thus provided the impetus for improvement/

228 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:06:32am

I am pleased that the Muslim/Arab people feel so strongly against torture. I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States. I would encourage all the nations in the world to do the same.


/.wishful thinking?

229 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:07:26am

re: #216 pink freud

Nothing much really, just a little get acquainted visit to the middle east by their new leader.
/

it reminds me of the organ music between innings at the ball game...the fans just ignore it and go piss instead

230 Gang of One  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:07:36am

re: #213 Walter L. Newton

They still need our money. They need our expertise. Who do you think manages, build and drills all their oil? Us. If ever one of our oil field workers left in mass, they would be screwed for months.

In the short-term I believe your view to be the correct one. Would the Chinese, Russians and Indians not be able to fill the vacuum?

As you said earlier in your #204 you don't want to argue -- niether do I ... just thinking out loud.

231 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:07:42am

re: #4 Occasional Reader

Um... Charles, are you favorably impressed with Obama's implicit comparsion of the situation of Palestinians to that of slaves in pre-Emancipation America?


Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed – more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction – or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews – is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.

On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people – Muslims and Christians – have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than sixty years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations – large and small – that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own.

Moral equivalence of Holocaust to the "Occupation?"

232 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:08:22am

re: #173 ointmentfly

What would be priceless is to get the audio from every post speech sermon in every mosque in the middle east and pull quotes from it. The fact is that Obama and Bush can say whatever they want, but it seems like the faithful followers will wait for the translation from their local Imam. They carry a little more heft in the region than the POTUS.

You can get more of that than you ever want to hear from Memri, often posted here.

233 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:08:30am

also the statement abt. the rop's tolerance and respect for other religions is such a blatant lie.
ask the christians, jews, hindus, buddhists, and nonbelievers who have suffered such oppression and degradation in countries everywhere since the moslems swarmed in an subjugated them.
this is on going now.
why didn't o challenge the egyptians abt. the heartbreaking plight of the coptic
christians there?

234 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:09:01am

re: #229 albusteve

it reminds me of the organ music between innings at the ball game...the fans just ignore it and go piss instead

A curiosity, like the two-headed snake at the carnival show.

235 gatorbait  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:09:05am

Rhetorical appeasement of these slime balls will blow back in his face. How much money did we spend for this putz to make a useless speech in a shit hole after sucking up to our most avowed enemy? On to Dresden to apologize for fight WWII.

236 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:09:15am

re: #225 Mithrax

that's exactly what it is...entrenching his brilliance for the next election so that we cannot give up the guy who has grasped the brass ring

237 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:09:56am

re: #235 gatorbait

Rhetorical appeasement of these slime balls will blow back in his face. How much money did we spend for this putz to make a useless speech in a shit hole after sucking up to our most avowed enemy? On to Dresden to apologize for fight WWII.

We have no proof of what he is going to say about Dresden, or not say. That is hyperbole.

238 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:10:10am

re: #226 CommonCents

Mormons get a pretty bad wrap too. Will you stand up for them wherever negative stereotypes appear?

how about the Armed Forces for that matter?....what about those hospital patients in Germany?

239 badger1970  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:10:21am

re: #227 Creeping Eruption

It made the monks scribe ten times as fast.

240 redstateredneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:10:29am

re: #177 pink freud

It was obvious the speech was written by some shiny-eyed idealistic wet-behind-the-ears kid. Even the Muslim World can't ignore the naivete he conveyed.

Obama's chief speechwriter.
Not sure if he wrote this one, but looks like you nailed him.

241 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:10:50am

re: #233 nyc redneck

also the statement abt. the rop's tolerance and respect for other religions is such a blatant lie.
ask the christians, jews, hindus, buddhists, and nonbelievers who have suffered such oppression and degradation in countries everywhere since the moslems swarmed in an subjugated them.
this is on going now.
why didn't o challenge the egyptians abt. the heartbreaking plight of the coptic
christians there?

The Copts got mentioned, but in the middle with others:

Among some Muslims, there is a disturbing tendency to measure one's own faith by the rejection of another's. The richness of religious diversity must be upheld - whether it is for Maronites in Lebanon or the Copts in Egypt. And fault lines must be closed among Muslims as well, as the divisions between Sunni and Shia have led to tragic violence, particularly in Iraq.
242 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:11:40am

re: #224 lawhawk

The US does not get most of its oil from the Middle East - that would affect Europe far more harshly than the US. And China and India rely more on the Middle East than the US. US gets the bulk of its oil from North America and the Western Hemisphere (Canada, US, Mexico, Venezuela with Saudi Arabia being a fourth place). The full list of top 15 exporting nations to the US is here.

Yes, we don't get a lot of oil from the Gulf States, but a large spike in the price of oil due to even a threatened embargo would not be beneficial for our economy.

243 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:11:45am

re: #19 Charles

There's plenty to criticize in the speech, but no more than in any George W. Bush speech. Bush may not have brought up slavery, but he certainly said lots of the same feel-good phrases about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and Obama has no monopoly on the "two-state solution" stuff.


He (Bush) also said in a BBC interview prior to going to the Mid-East that the Israeli Pali conflict was an excuse used by Muslim extremists to deflect from their real problems.

It was bold and the truth, and from that point on was not brought up again as a reason for Al-Quada existence.

244 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:12:03am

re: #196 FurryOldGuyJeans

Even a temporary shortage would cripple our economy. The Gulf states would be able to weather one easier than we could.

I doubt it also, but may I suggest we begin drilling domestically in anticipation of... ?

245 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:13:03am

re: #244 unrealizedviewpoint

I doubt it also, but may I suggest we begin drilling domestically in anticipation of... ?

whatever it is...it's coming

246 Dianna  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:13:09am

re: #227 Creeping Eruption

Sure. They provided a shinning example of how not to live and thus provided the impetus for improvement/

The material that came to the West after the fall of Constantinople, in Greek, had a lot to do with the Renaissance.

The Enlightenment, however, was purely homegrown, growing out of the experience of Europe, its research, and its Wars of Religion.

247 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:13:19am

Some nice comments by Hamas and Hizbullah, as seen on Aussie Dave's blog,
israellycool:

'“Speaking about a policy of pursuing a war against extremism and working towards two states for peoples on Palestinian lands is no different from the policy of his predecessor, George W Bush.” - Ayman Taha, Hamas spokesman

“The Islamic world does not need moral or political sermons. It needs a fundamental change in American policy beginning from a halt to complete support for Israeli aggression on the region, especially on Lebanese and Palestinians, to an American withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan and a stop to its interference in the affairs of Islamic countries. We have not seen any change in US policy towards the Palestinian cause.” - Hassan Fadlallah, Hizbullah “lawmaker”

Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile ... there is just no satisfying some ...

248 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:13:49am

re: #240 redstateredneck

Obama's chief speechwriter.
Not sure if he wrote this one, but looks like you nailed him.

Brought to mind this post from the 'moronic convergence' thread last night by Teh Flower:

"I know that they'll probably see this and I'm probably just adding fuel to the fire, but I've never gotten what was so terrible about a one world government. Especially a federal type system in which the American style is simply expanded. We didn't seem to mind expanding our borders even up to the 1950's."

To which Shadow Do replied: "Naivete passes with time. Get some rest. I am."

That about sums it up.

249 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:13:59am

re: #242 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes, we don't get a lot of oil from the Gulf States, but a large spike in the price of oil due to even a threatened embargo would not be beneficial for our economy.

Above you said "cripple our economy" ("Even a temporary shortage would cripple our economy. The Gulf states would be able to weather one easier than we could.")

Which is it? Not beneficial or cripple?

250 Gang of One  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:14:03am

re: #244 unrealizedviewpoint

I doubt it also, but may I suggest we begin drilling domestically in anticipation of... ?

Don't think this'll happen any time soon. The knuckleheads who bitch and moan about weaning ourselves off of foreign oil don't imply we produce our own -- they want us to go alternative.

251 CommonCents  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:14:03am

re: #244 unrealizedviewpoint

I doubt it also, but may I suggest we begin drilling domestically in anticipation of... ?

Domestic production of crude is up while imports have decreased. Not significantly, but the is a turn in the correct direction. Plus the SPR is adequately stocked.... an inheritance the President probably won't mention.

252 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:15:44am

Well, I am not quite as happy about this speech.

I think that the reference to Iraq was throwing the Military under a bus.
I think that the reference to torture was throwing the military and intel under the bus.

I think the Occupation is as bad as the Holocaust was throwing Israel under the bus.

Obama is great at telling a crowd exactly what they want to hear.

I am not encouraged.

253 Preposter S  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:16:11am

The whole thing is absurd:

The biggest problem with the Islamic world is horrible leadership.

The bad leaders provide terrible education, counterfactual media, few economic opportunities and blame the whole mess on Israel and US.

The idea of the US blaming ourselves for this mess is ridiculous. Obama did not address the political dysfunction in the region nor the absence of basic liberties (speech, women etc).

When the whole world is "cheering" it means he has abased himself, his office and this nation. But he was quite happy to sell the usual claptrap of settlements back to the Islamic world.

The US economy is in the tank. North Korea is on the verge of war, Iran is going to be nuclear any minute and Hezbollah is going to eat Lebanon later this week. Just words. Not leadership.

Whatever our current distress as a nation, we always bounce back. The Islamic world is a mess and getting worse. Obama's speech was turgid cloud of false history, double standards, obsequiousness and moral equivalence.

This is posing. This is egomania.

Mr. Nihad, head of the Muslim Brotherhood front group, CAIR thought the speech was "excellent." The only thing to cheer is when he was done. Obama will now complete this Augean voyage by telling the Saudis not to worry about Iran, doing to Dresden to apologize, commit more moral equivalence at a concentration camp and then wrap the whole thing a beautiful bow at Omaha beach. In his book the settlements that defend the survivors of the holocaust have to go in the name of a peace process that failed before because it did not address the very same antisemitic radicalism that caused WWII and powers radical Islamists today, most notably Iran.

If he wanted to help the Muslim world he should tell the truth. Have them accept responsibility for their post-colonial failings and address the human development needs of the region.

254 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:16:33am

Uh ... he did not say that the "Occupation is as bad as the Holocaust." Not even close to that.

255 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:16:42am

re: #251 CommonCents

Domestic production of crude is up while imports have decreased. Not significantly, but the is a turn in the correct direction. Plus the SPR is adequately stocked.... an inheritance the President probably won't mention.

Heck, I got a full tank, I'm not worried.
/

256 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:17:16am

re: #252 Buck

Well, I am not quite as happy about this speech.

I think that the reference to Iraq was throwing the Military under a bus.
I think that the reference to torture was throwing the military and intel under the bus.

I think the Occupation is as bad as the Holocaust was throwing Israel under the bus.

Obama is great at telling a crowd exactly what they want to hear.

I am not encouraged.

Yep - that speech is like a watering can - a bit of water sprinkled over eveything, but nothing really drenched ...

257 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:17:24am

I am 54 years old. It is so depressing to still be having the same arguments over and over and over and over again. This is like a black groundhog day! The West and Israel are not perfect and both can assume blame for various things but the fault for no peace between Israel and it's neighbors should be obvious to anyone with knowledge of history and an understanding of the dynamics. I just want to puke sometimes when someone thinks they just reinvented the wheel in the Middle East.

258 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:17:55am

re: #247 yma o hyd

Some nice comments by Hamas and Hizbullah, as seen on Aussie Dave's blog,
israellycool:

'“Speaking about a policy of pursuing a war against extremism and working towards two states for peoples on Palestinian lands is no different from the policy of his predecessor, George W Bush.” - Ayman Taha, Hamas spokesman

“The Islamic world does not need moral or political sermons. It needs a fundamental change in American policy beginning from a halt to complete support for Israeli aggression on the region, especially on Lebanese and Palestinians, to an American withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan and a stop to its interference in the affairs of Islamic countries. We have not seen any change in US policy towards the Palestinian cause.” - Hassan Fadlallah, Hizbullah “lawmaker”

Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile ... there is just no satisfying some ...

UNCLEANCH

259 redstateredneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:18:00am

re: #248 pink freud

Ah, youth...!

260 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:18:11am

re: #249 Walter L. Newton

Above you said "cripple our economy" ("Even a temporary shortage would cripple our economy. The Gulf states would be able to weather one easier than we could.")

Which is it? Not beneficial or cripple?

Cripple AND not beneficial.

Going to parse the meaning of is now, Walter? For a guy that says they don't want to argue you sure try to find a lot of nits to pick.

261 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:18:28am

re: #254 Charles

Uh ... he did not say that the "Occupation is as bad as the Holocaust." Not even close to that.

No but the juxtaposition of the two thoughts was unfortunate. I don't think that is what he meant.

262 Wendya  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:18:38am

re: #194 tradewind


Bottom line as well... why was this such a priority for TOTUS? We have many more important issues at home, AND abroad .

Obama believes his own press and he thinks his legacy will be restoring peace to the middle east by gently lecturing the Muslim world. They are going to take what they want from this speech and discard everything they don't want to hear just like always.

It wasn't a good speech or a bad speech. It was the status quo.

263 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:18:52am

re: #260 FurryOldGuyJeans

Cripple AND not beneficial.

Going to parse the meaning of is now, Walter? For a guy that says they don't want to argue you sure try to find a lot of nits to pick.

Sure!

264 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:18:54am

re: #257 Nevergiveup

I am 54 years old. It is so depressing to still be having the same arguments over and over and over and over again. This is like a black groundhog day! The West and Israel are not perfect and both can assume blame for various things but the fault for no peace between Israel and it's neighbors should be obvious to anyone with knowledge of history and an understanding of the dynamics. I just want to puke sometimes when someone thinks they just reinvented the wheel in the Middle East.

it's the Big Prize...everybody wants a piece of it..to hell with history and reason and principle...it's worse than an addictive dope

265 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:19:42am

re: #263 Walter L. Newton

Sure!

so what's that mean?

266 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:19:44am

re: #254 Charles

Uh ... he did not say that the "Occupation is as bad as the Holocaust." Not even close to that.

Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and antisemitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed - more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction - or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews - is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.

On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people - Muslims and Christians - have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than 60 years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations - large and small - that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own.

267 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:21:21am

re: #266 Buck

I read that section of the speech. It does not say that the "Occupation is as bad as the Holocaust."

268 n2stox  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:22:07am

Are we supposed to be surprised that Obama gave a good speech?

He was like a card dealer dealing cards. Everybody got something. He drew no lines, pronounced no policy. This is like his "95% of Americans will get a tax break" speech. Great. Get a few pats on the back, have a few commentators dissect the speech with a scalpel (speaking of scalpels, what happened to going through the budget with a scalpel? Another fine element of many of his speeches).

But, at the end of the day, he's going to go back to the same ol Barry. I hope I'm wrong, but I've been impressed with many of his speeches, only then to be left with his actual deeds.

And, can someone explain to me how Islam led Europe into the Renaissance, but failed to take the Islamic world into one of their own?

269 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:22:47am

re: #254 Charles

Uh ... he did not say that the "Occupation is as bad as the Holocaust." Not even close to that.

Mentioning one thing, then saying "On the other hand" usually means a comparison.

270 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:23:12am

Interesting to read some the "reactions" at "The LEDE" at NYT from Arab students. A sample:

But what was surprising to me is that despite the fact that President Obama continued to make references to American and Israeli history, he overlooked the fact that Palestine does have a history which includes decades of Israeli occupation and terror. A two-state solution seems realistic and reasonable but I believe that saying Israel has “legitimate aspirations” isn’t really accurate.

As an Egyptian, I am, location-wise, really close to the conflict, and as a human being, I see that Israeli actions are a violation of the sovereignty of another people and another state. However, I agree with the U.S president, there must be compromise and there must be sacrifice, as much as I would like to see Palestinians living freely within their own land, it does seem that a two-state solution is the best option, but both sides must be willing to compromise in order to achieve peace.

Obama’s position on the Israeli-Arab conflict was moderate and tailored to both sides; a child, whether Palestinian or Israeli, has every right to a decent life. The two-state solution and pushing to stop the ongoing settlements was a substantial point, one that is yet novel to Palestinians in regards to recent U.S. foreign policy. I think this strongly illustrates the likelihood of peacemaking.

I did not feel very comfortable regarding the two state solution and regarding treating the Holocaust as a fact. It is still a debatable issue and should not be taken as granted. [NYT can't have an honest Holocaust denial quoted, so they had to throw on some lipstick with the following:]

Lede Blog Editor’s Note We asked Tarek to clarify his objection to President Obama’s statement that the Holocaust is a fact in his speech today in Cairo. Here is what he told us:

I admit a genocide has taken place! That’s a fact. However, the numbers are really doubtful. I also don’t see any relevance between people being killed by other nation and building a homeland in a different land. Again the genocide did take place. I just doubt the numbers.

I was troubled by his words regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict and those on democracy. The others were okay, they were expected — violent extremism in all of its forms didn’t really hit a nerve. Iran’s nuclear controversy is just filling white space, but claiming the Holocaust justifies a Jewish homeland and then saying it’s wrong too, what was it? Oh, uttering the same about Jews because it revokes past emotions is atrocious. For 60 years the Palestinians have been displaced, killed and terrorized and it’s disparaging to think of it as a tragic event rather than a genocide. To me, that thought confirms only one thing — his views of Palestinians are no different to those of Zionists.

271 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:23:22am

Osama Bin Laden never said, "Yes it was me."

272 jpkoch  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:23:27am

Everyone knows, the President gives great speeches. What is more important is what he does. Every single crisis that hits the Mideast, not matter what nation is involved, or the nature of the crisis, the solution is always the same: Israel must cede more territory and more security. If Jordan went to war with Syria, there would be a worldwide call for a 2-state solution between Israel and Palestine as the only solution.

273 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:23:58am
274 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:25:38am

re: #257 Nevergiveup

I am 54 years old. It is so depressing to still be having the same arguments over and over and over and over again. This is like a black groundhog day! The West and Israel are not perfect and both can assume blame for various things but the fault for no peace between Israel and it's neighbors should be obvious to anyone with knowledge of history and an understanding of the dynamics. I just want to puke sometimes when someone thinks they just reinvented the wheel in the Middle East.

i don't trust 'hussein' at all.
to get a feather in his cap as a peace deal broker he is more willing and eager to risk the welfare of israel than any other pres. in history.
i pray for israel and hope they realize that o's touting his "moslem roots" is a very bad omen indeed.

275 Dave the.....  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:25:40am

Overall not bad. NRO made a good point though...by using the phrase "the Muslim World", he is using a terminalogy of the Jihadist. That there is some monolithic Muslim ideology.

276 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:27:13am

Why would someone schooled in in a madrassa as a child make the mistake of saying '...and Mohammed, Peace Be Unto Them', instead of 'Peace be Unto Him'?

I haven't read the text yet ...has anyone seen that in there? Just strange, that's all. Kinda makes him look like a doofus.

277 theheat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:27:35am

The speech wasn't a complete wash, it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but there was nothing to make the speech anything that hasn't been said before. Perhaps the ME's perception of him is better, which may be an advantage, but that probably has less to do with what he said than who they think he is. If he had read the phone book aloud to them, they'd probably be just as affected/starstruck/meh/blah.

If I were an Israeli, there's really nothing there for me to get excited about, no promises or ideas that didn't come straight from the recycling bin. And I am a female, and there's even less to be excited about as a member of the softer sex. Big fail, there.

At this point, I can only find the simplest pleasure that he hasn't physically bowed, and that his wife hasn't been seen in the company of other cloaked women, draped in oppressive fabric from head to toe as some misguided gesture of tolerance for the intolerable.

I'm going to give this a solid C+, and cross my fingers it gets better. I have yet to see a POTUS knock one out of the park.

278 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:27:41am

re: #269 Ben Hur

Mentioning one thing, then saying "On the other hand" usually means a comparison.

If you read the actual words, he described the horrors of the Holocaust very accurately -- millions dead, death camps, slavery, etc. And he called out the Holocaust deniers.

When he described the "occupation," he talked about "humiliation" and "refugee camps."

The only equivalence is the fact that the two paragraphs were next to each other. Sorry, I just don't see those statements as being morally equivalent at all.

279 tradewind  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:27:42am

Eww, I just saw a video clip and wtf is up with that pencil mustache, BHO?

280 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:27:49am

re: #274 nyc redneck

i don't trust 'hussein' at all.
to get a feather in his cap as a peace deal broker he is more willing and eager to risk the welfare of israel than any other pres. in history.
i pray for israel and hope they realize that o's touting his "moslem roots" is a very bad omen indeed.

I think that is starting to sink in, but i wonder if or when it will sink in with my Liberal Jewish family and friends?

281 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:27:55am

What this amounts to is a naive attempt to undermine the extremists - thinking that somehow if he says it there will be more effect than his predecessors saying it. Who knows, maybe there are flying purple unicorns flitting across the backside of pluto...

282 Wendya  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:28:33am

re: #269 Ben Hur

Mentioning one thing, then saying "On the other hand" usually means a comparison.

It's a device used to present contrasting information.

"One one hand we have the holocaust" "On the other hand, we have the occupation of Palestine".

283 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:29:11am

re: #17 Catttt

Hope for the best - prepare for the worst.

I very much like those quotations - I just wish everyone would take them to heart. I especially liked his example, quoted below, about violence:

For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America’s founding.

I know he's referring to the Civil Right's Movement here--which was itself not entirely non-violent--, but that ignores the importance of the Civil War-- the bloodiest period in American history--in ending slavery and paving the road for equal rights. This really makes me question Obama's self-professed knowledge of Abraham Lincoln.

284 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:29:36am

re: #266 Buck

These sentences show that PB0 has fully followed Palestinian propaganda:

'Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations - large and small - that come with occupation.'

So why do they live in refugee camps in Gaza? Isn't that a palestinian state now? Shouldn't they ahve started building, after so many years, instead of firing rockets?
It certainly is not 'occupied', is it?

We ought to have learned by now, from the statements issued by Hamas, Hizbollah, Fatah: 'occupation', for them, means the whole of Israel.
For them, and end to occupation is equivalent to an end to Israel.

PB0 seems not to understand this - he's using this expression in the non-Palestinian sense, thus playing straight into their hands.

Not good ...

285 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:30:14am

re: #278 Charles

If you read the actual words, he described the horrors of the Holocaust very accurately -- millions dead, death camps, slavery, etc. And he called out the Holocaust deniers.

When he described the "occupation," he talked about "humiliation" and "refugee camps."

The only equivalence is the fact that the two paragraphs were next to each other. Sorry, I just don't see those statements as being morally equivalent at all.

We'll have to agree that we have different opinions on what role "on the other hand" plays in the English language.

286 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:30:28am

re: #33 Catttt

You listened to NPR, and you survived? /

It's sopoforic, but not usually fatal. Unless you fall asleep at the wheel.

287 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:31:06am

re: #282 Wendya

It's a device used to present contrasting information.

"One one hand we have the holocaust" "On the other hand, we have the occupation of Palestine".

I'm sorry, I don't read that way.

288 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:31:24am

re: #278 Charles

If you read the actual words, he described the horrors of the Holocaust very accurately -- millions dead, death camps, slavery, etc. And he called out the Holocaust deniers.

When he described the "occupation," he talked about "humiliation" and "refugee camps."

The only equivalence is the fact that the two paragraphs were next to each other. Sorry, I just don't see those statements as being morally equivalent at all.

You are correct but in the Middle East where every word and letter has a meaning the juxtaposition was unfortunate and should have been caught by his "peeps". For example Resolution 242 ending the 1967 War said "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;" instead of "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from the territories occupied in the recent conflict;". This is the Middle East and if you don't know what you are doing stay out of it.

289 AnnaS  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:32:13am

Sorry! I was not impressed.

290 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:32:19am

People: While it remains to be seen whether Obama's honeyed words will catch any Arab flies, all of you who are picking apart the speech need to remember that if honey only does the job sometimes, vinegar never works.

291 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:32:30am

re: #288 Nevergiveup

His "peeps" are children still playing on Facebook.

292 CommonCents  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:32:36am

re: #269 Ben Hur

Mentioning one thing, then saying "On the other hand" usually means a comparison.

Here's a writing tip...
"On the other hand" is a very common phrase, but can be considered a cliché and should, therefore, be avoided in extremely formal English. Instead, use "conversely" or "by contrast." "On the other hand" is particularly useful in everyday writing and can eliminate the temptation to start with "but."

293 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:32:41am

re: #285 Ben Hur

We'll have to agree that we have different opinions on what role "on the other hand" plays in the English language.


Correctin.

role "on the other hand" plays in this speech.

294 Kaymad  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:32:42am

re: #276 pink freud

I think either way, someone who says "Peace be upon them" (or however he put it) when they don't normally speak that way and is in fact pretty non religious, is kind of a doofus. I thought Bush was a doofus for his fawning over the saudi king and his Islam = Peace rhetoric as well. Oh look, I criticised a democrat and a republican. I guess that makes me a moderate and above criticism.

295 rexatosis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:33:10am

I have two huge problems with Pres. Obama's speech: 1. His acceptance of Iran pursuing "peaceful" nuclear energy--it is "peaceful" 'til its not and that distance is incredibly short. 2. Pres. Obama's decision not to stop in Israel after or before the speech as has been custom for United States Presidents for decades--The overall weakness of the speech (as is diplomatic custom) combined with the slight of Israel in action (which is way outside SOP for US diplomacy in the Middle East) may send the wrong signal to Hamas, Fatah, Syria, Iran, etc. about this administration's resolve to protect Israel.

War is more often the product of miscalculated actions and misinterpretations of intention than calculated design.

This was not a good speech, hopefully it will not go down in history as a catastrophic speech.

296 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:33:25am

re: #292 CommonCents

Here's a writing tip...
"On the other hand" is a very common phrase, but can be considered a cliché and should, therefore, be avoided in extremely formal English. Instead, use "conversely" or "by contrast." "On the other hand" is particularly useful in everyday writing and can eliminate the temptation to start with "but."

Thanks for the tip.

297 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:34:19am

re: #290 Throbert McGee

People: While it remains to be seen whether Obama's honeyed words will catch any Arab flies, all of you who are picking apart the speech need to remember that if honey only does the job sometimes, vinegar never works.

If given a choice between honey (obfuscation and sleight of hand) and vinegar (cold hard truth), I'll take the vinegar.

298 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:34:44am

re: #292 CommonCents

Here's a writing tip...
"On the other hand" is a very common phrase, but can be considered a cliché and should, therefore, be avoided in extremely formal English. Instead, use "conversely" or "by contrast." "On the other hand" is particularly useful in everyday writing and can eliminate the temptation to start with "but."

Apparetnly his speech writer needs the tip as well, becuase it wsa meant as a comparison of suffering.

299 Lynn B.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:35:06am

Listening to the speech at HuffPo.

That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hajib, and to punish those who would deny it.

Hajib? Not the first mispronunciation I've heard.

300 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:35:38am

re: #297 pink freud

If given a choice between honey (obfuscation and sleight of hand) and vinegar (cold hard truth), I'll take the vinegar.

Vinegar is extremely useful in all sorts of situations.
Its for adults - children get honey ...

301 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:36:36am

re: #280 Nevergiveup

I think that is starting to sink in, but i wonder if or when it will sink in with my Liberal Jewish family and friends?

he will continue to reveal himself. at some point it will not be possible to gloss over and ignore what he is doing. his hubris is out of control. notice the only people who are actually required to sacrifice are americans and israelis.

302 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:37:10am

bbl

303 n2stox  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:37:46am

re: #287 Ben Hur

I'm sorry, I don't read that way.

I'm tending to lean with Ben Hur on this one.

Why juxtapose and use the "one one hand...and on the other?"

i don't see him as equating the two, but Obama most certainly wants to show empathy for Palestinians and he uses the Holocaust to do it.

304 dhg4  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:39:02am

re: #107 CommonCents

Resistance through violence and killing is wrong and does not succeed.

That is such a Ghandi phrase. It's bull crap and factually inaccurate. If the Palistinian people should resist through violence and killing they should do so against the subjugation they face from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, [put your acronym here]. It's not Israel keeping them down.

Israelly Cool noted this phrase. There are two problems with it.

1) It is one more way he avoids saying the word "terror," which was absent from the speech. (He may have described acts of terror, but he didn't use that term.)
2) He adopted the language of Hamas and Fatah and most of the Arab world. He did not shrink from using "occupation" or "settlements" though.

"Terror" is not loaded like "occupation" and he used the terms that put Israel on the defensive, but not the accurate one to describe much of the fight against Israel.

305 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:39:05am

Since some people are speculating about who wrote this speech -- it was Ben Rhodes:

[Link: www.politico.com...]

306 Kaymad  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:40:04am

re: #284 yma o hyd

These sentences show that PB0 has fully followed Palestinian propaganda:

'Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations - large and small - that come with occupation.'

So why do they live in refugee camps in Gaza? Isn't that a palestinian state now? Shouldn't they ahve started building, after so many years, instead of firing rockets?
It certainly is not 'occupied', is it?

We ought to have learned by now, from the statements issued by Hamas, Hizbollah, Fatah: 'occupation', for them, means the whole of Israel.
For them, and end to occupation is equivalent to an end to Israel.

PB0 seems not to understand this - he's using this expression in the non-Palestinian sense, thus playing straight into their hands.

Not good ...

Thank you! I've often wondered the same thing and thought maybe I didn't understand everything properly. They have there own elected leadership. They have terroritory not occupied by any other country...so, what's stopping them from declaring themselves a state and moving on?

307 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:41:14am

re: #297 pink freud

If given a choice between honey (obfuscation and sleight of hand) and vinegar (cold hard truth), I'll take the vinegar.

I'd rather hear the worst truth than the best lie

308 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:42:25am

re: #305 Charles

Since some people are speculating about who wrote this speech -- it was Ben Rhodes:

[Link: www.politico.com...]

And maybe this says it all:
Rhodes had just earned a master’s degree in FICTION writing from New York University when he was offered a job as a writer for Hamilton in 2002. A Manhattan native, Rhodes went on to write the Iraq Study Group Report and help draft policy recommendations for the 9/11 Commission, which Hamilton co-chaired.

309 NonNativeTexan  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:43:05am

Thanks Charles for the update on women's rights.
When women in predominately Muslim countries are
afforded anywhere close to the rights which males have,
we will know that progress is being made. But as
long as they are treated as child-bearing property,
it is that country's loss of skills and talent that half
of the population could provide.

310 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:44:29am

re: #306 Kaymad

Thank you! I've often wondered the same thing and thought maybe I didn't understand everything properly. They have there own elected leadership. They have terroritory not occupied by any other country...so, what's stopping them from declaring themselves a state and moving on?

You don't understand everything properly. They don't have territory that is not occupied by any other country. That is the entire issue that has cost thousands of Israelis and Arabs alike their lives over the years.

311 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:46:45am

re: #299 Lynn B.

Listening to the speech at HuffPo.

Hajib? Not the first mispronunciation I've heard.

He's not being a very good "sekrit Moslem" if he can't even pronounce "hijab" correctly.

312 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:47:44am

re: #308 Nevergiveup

And maybe this says it all:
Rhodes had just earned a master’s degree in FICTION writing from New York University when he was offered a job as a writer for Hamilton in 2002. A Manhattan native, Rhodes went on to write the Iraq Study Group Report and help draft policy recommendations for the 9/11 Commission, which Hamilton co-chaired.

Umm. Yeah. Are you saying that a master's in fiction is somehow a bad thing? It was good writing. The man knows his craft.

313 ConservatismNow!  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:48:18am

re: #227 Creeping Eruption

Sure. They provided a shinning example of how not to live and thus provided the impetus for improvement/

In a way, they kind of did. When the Ottomans took Constantinople there was an influx of ancient Greek and Roman manuscripts into Italy. That allowed the humanists access to a greater variety of philosophical and historical works.

314 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:48:40am

re: #312 enoughalready

Umm. Yeah. Are you saying that a master's in fiction is somehow a bad thing? It was good writing. The man knows his craft.

I'm saying it sounded like fiction to me.

315 tradewind  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:48:44am

re: #305 Charles
From the Politico link...
......

he was an aspiring fiction writer working on a novel called “The Oasis of Love.”


Copy that/

316 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:49:21am

re: #278 Charles

If you read the actual words, he described the horrors of the Holocaust very accurately -- millions dead, death camps, slavery, etc. And he called out the Holocaust deniers.

When he described the "occupation," he talked about "humiliation" and "refugee camps."

The only equivalence is the fact that the two paragraphs were next to each other. Sorry, I just don't see those statements as being morally equivalent at all.

Upding for saving me the trouble of typing more or less the same thing.

Hasty overuse of the accusation "moral equivalence!" cheapens a phrase that is sometimes urgently necessary.

I'm just praying that there will be some Arab intellectuals bold enough to point out that the suffering of the Palestinians is, in fact, not nearly as bad as the suffering of Jews during the Holocaust or of black Americans under slavery.

317 CommonCents  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:49:51am

re: #304 dhg4

Israelly Cool noted this phrase. There are two problems with it.

1) It is one more way he avoids saying the word "terror," which was absent from the speech. (He may have described acts of terror, but he didn't use that term.)

This administration shows fear by the unwillingness to mention the word terrorism.

318 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:50:52am

re: #314 Nevergiveup

I'm saying it sounded like fiction to me.

Ummm. Ok. A speech as fiction. Yeah. Whatever you say.

319 MarineMomSue  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:51:49am

re: #27 VegasRick

State flower?
/

maybe a nice LOGO?
/

320 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:52:07am

re: #257 Nevergiveup

Well no one studies history anymore so we are doomed to keep repeating it.

321 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:52:56am

re: #318 enoughalready

Ummm. Ok. A speech as fiction. Yeah. Whatever you say.

Stop mumbling. If you got something to say, say it.

322 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:53:25am
323 dhg4  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:53:39am

re: #317 CommonCents

This administration shows fear by the unwillingness to mention the word terrorism.

I think the biggest fear he had was of insulting the Arab world that he was reaching out to. "Honesty" only works for Israel, apparently.

324 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:53:53am

re: #308 Nevergiveup

And maybe this says it all:
Rhodes had just earned a master’s degree in FICTION writing from New York University when he was offered a job as a writer for Hamilton in 2002. A Manhattan native, Rhodes went on to write the Iraq Study Group Report and help draft policy recommendations for the 9/11 Commission, which Hamilton co-chaired.

And then there's this:

"Not long ago, Rhodes was one of the obscure guys who wrote Obama’s campaign speeches in Starbucks and played video games into the early morning hours. Now he attends national security meetings and takes writer’s refuge in a secret office on the third floor of the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.

Rhodes is still largely unknown compared to Jon Favreau, Obama’s 27-year-old chief speechwriter and one of Time magazine’s 100 most influential people.

Read more: "Obama's foreign policy voice, speechwriter Ben Rhodes - Carol E. Lee - POLITICO.com" - [Link: www.politico.com...]

325 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:54:19am

re: #307 HoosierHoops

I'd rather hear the worst truth than the best lie

Yes, but you're not an Arab audience member in Cairo.

326 Abu Lahab  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:54:20am

I think to expect from any high-ranking politician (moreover a president) to say what people say around their kitchen tables is not realistic. He is not going to tell the Muslims world everything me and you know or think about, and no president have ever done that or will do it.
"Religious of peace", anyone?

327 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:55:02am

re: #324 pink freud

And then there's this:

"Not long ago, Rhodes was one of the obscure guys who wrote Obama’s campaign speeches in Starbucks and played video games into the early morning hours. Now he attends national security meetings and takes writer’s refuge in a secret office on the third floor of the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.

Rhodes is still largely unknown compared to Jon Favreau, Obama’s 27-year-old chief speechwriter and one of Time magazine’s 100 most influential people.

Read more: "Obama's foreign policy voice, speechwriter Ben Rhodes - Carol E. Lee - POLITICO.com" - [Link: www.politico.com...]

Inspires confidence ha?

328 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:56:13am

Several right wing blogs are hitting the "sekrit Moslem" theme hard today.

And Atlas Shrieks is full tilt loony.

329 ConservatismNow!  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:57:13am

re: #328 Charles


And Atlas Shrieks is full tilt loony.

How is that different from any other day?

330 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:57:19am

re: #327 Nevergiveup

Inspires confidence ha?

Do people here think that former administrations have had some magic extra special speechwriters with extra special super degrees in double secret speech writing?

331 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:57:53am

re: #325 Throbert McGee

Yes, but you're not an Arab audience member in Cairo.

Are you implying that it is better to tell someone what you think they want to hear instead of the truth?

332 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:58:36am

re: #84 moshavnik

I find out so funny that the Egyptians are "supporting" the Palestinians. They occupied part of the Palestinian state from 1948-67. During that time there was a curfew EVERY night and Palestinians were not allowed into Egypt. Today the border between Egypt and Gaza is closed. No one in the MSM seems to have picked up on this. There is also never any mention of the 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

I would have been REALLY happy if the speech had mentioned the refugees from the Arab countries. Swept under the rug again. That's the part that irks me.

333 ConservatismNow!  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:58:38am

re: #331 pink freud

It's certainly not better, but it wins elections unfortunately.

334 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:58:40am

re: #328 Charles

Several right wing blogs are hitting the "sekrit Moslem" theme hard today.

And Atlas Shrieks is full tilt loony.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

335 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:58:57am

re: #327 Nevergiveup

Inspires confidence ha?

It do, it do indeed. /

336 philip  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:59:33am

A very thoughtful and progressive speech. Thumbs up.

337 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:59:51am

re: #330 enoughalready

Do people here think that former administrations have had some magic extra special speechwriters with extra special super degrees in double secret speech writing?

No. They had grownups.

338 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:00:05am

Not really sure why so many zionist panties are in a twist over this speech. Obama took several paragraphs to explicitly condemn anti-semitism and recognize the legitimacy of Israel's statehood and the horror of the holocaust. Yet because he has chosen to press Israel on the issue of settlement growth (settlements recognized as illegal by the Israeli government) he is now an enemy of Israel?

If there is going to be any progress made towards resolving the Israeli Palestinian conflict, marginalizing far-right extremist groups in Israel is clearly going to be just as important as marginalizing arab terrorist groups like Hamas. Obama is being a realist, not an anti-semite.

339 Abu Lahab  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:00:45am

re: #328 Charles

Atlas Shrieks


I never heard it before, it's hilarious, thank you for the laugh. That fits her blog so well, especially when she writes in ALL CAPITALS IN RED: WE ARE DOOMED, DOOMED!

340 dhg4  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:01:12am

re: #327 Nevergiveup

Inspires confidence ha?

Like Brian Deese!

341 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:01:27am

re: #337 pink freud

No. They had grownups.

Right. Well, let me be clear then. GWB had nothing even close to approaching the quality of the speech writers that are working in the current administration. This says nothing about the messages, just about the quality of the rethoric. If you think that these guys are bad at their jobs then you really are wrong.

342 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:02:32am

re: #121 Joel

Why does the POTUS feel the need to address the Islamic world? Does he feel the need toaddress teh Jewish or Christian or Hindu world? Also since when is it the job of the POTUS to counter negative images of Islam?

I did not vote for this guy.

My God. You're kidding, right?

//

343 dhg4  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:02:47am

Jonathan Tobin:

By going to the Middle East while ostentatiously avoiding Israel and picking a fight with its leadership sends a message that will resonate throughout the Arab world. His signal that America is now an impartial broker rather than Israel’s ally can only encourage a Palestinian people that continue to reject peace.
344 drpangloss  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:03:09am

recognize Hamas- check
don't recognize Israeli settlers - check
recognize Nazi genocide of Jews - check
dont recognize Arab genocide (attempted/expressed-check
recognize Jewish mother with Children in Ariel as obstacle to peace - check
dont recognize Ahmadinejad and nuclear centrifuges as obstacle to peace- check
recognize Israel's humiliation of Palestinians- check
don't recognize Islam culpability of 9/11-check
recognize 7 million (sic) American muslims - check
don't recognize that Arab world is judenrein and christianrein (almost) - check

how much more do you want Obama to kick US/Israel.

Obama says "F--- the Jews they will vote for us anyway*"


*and give us lots of campaign $$$$$

345 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:04:09am

re: #337 pink freud

No. They had grownups.


Seems to me the speech was pretty good if the only things you have to attack are the age/hobbies of the speechwriter.

346 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:05:05am

re: #343 dhg4

Jonathan Tobin:


That already has happened. Abbas gave an interview the other day that he will wait till Obama causes the Present Israeli Government to fall before he even considers talking to them. He said he is in no rush since the Palestinians have it pretty good right now.

347 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:06:08am

re: #345 drcordell

Seems to me the speech was pretty good if the only things you have to attack are the age/hobbies of the speechwriter.

Read the whole thread before you display your stupidity.

348 wahabicorridor  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:06:37am

Ach. Just logged on.

It was a good speech. The problem is that it won't change anything.

Look. I can't stand the guy. I think he is a major fraud.

But there is an upside to this. The 'ummah' now has to put up or shut up.

He done good.

It won't matter.

But, for the first time ever, ok, this guy is my president.

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:07:10am

re: #119 Occasional Reader

I love it when liberals say that Obama has all this wonderful credibility in (the Middle East, Africa, etc.) becuase he "looks more like they do". So... by the same logic, he'll have more difficulty negotiating with Europeans, right? "No, of course not!" Ah... so you're saying, white heads of state tend to be open-minded, but black and brown heads of state tend to be bigots? "[head explodes]"

I don't know about Africa, but you won't find many Arabs who will agree that Obama looks like them.

350 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:07:40am

re: #341 enoughalready

Right. Well, let me be clear then. GWB had nothing even close to approaching the quality of the speech writers that are working in the current administration. This says nothing about the messages, just about the quality of the rethoric. If you think that these guys are bad at their jobs then you really are wrong.

If you think that the leaders of the Middle Eastern countries listening to this crap didn't see right through to the core of bullshit upon which it was built, and recognize feel-good platitudes and lack of true substance, then you are wrong. Words ....just words. And they know it.

351 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:07:47am

re: #341 enoughalready

Right. Well, let me be clear then. GWB had nothing even close to approaching the quality of the speech writers that are working in the current administration. This says nothing about the messages, just about the quality of the rethoric. If you think that these guys are bad at their jobs then you really are wrong.

most of o's "readings" are filled w/ platitudes, nebulous concepts, lofty but phony b.s. easily open to interpretation by the audience.
bush's speeches had substance. he didn't opt for nuance.
which should be o's middle name. he could hyphenate it w/ hussein.
barack nuance-hussein obama.

352 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:08:45am

re: #345 drcordell

Seems to me the speech was pretty good if the only things you have to attack are the age/hobbies of the speechwriter.

Read the thread.

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:10:48am

re: #155 Wendya

Colonialism is the "new" slavery.

God, you need to keep up. Colonialism is the old new slavery. Now, post-colonial racism is the new colonialism, and the new new slavery.

354 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:11:36am

re: #323 dhg4

I think the biggest fear he had was of insulting the Arab world that he was reaching out to. "Honesty" only works for Israel, apparently.

Because the average Israeli is much better educated and has much better critical-thinking skills than the average Arab. Also, the average Israeli is not crippled by the mental burden of "honor/shame" thinking.

355 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:12:10am

re: #350 pink freud

If you think that the leaders of the Middle Eastern countries listening to this crap didn't see right through to the core of bullshit upon which it was built, and recognize feel-good platitudes and lack of true substance, then you are wrong. Words ....just words. And they know it.

So you think the intended audience for this speech were the leaders of Middle Eastern countries? Ok. Then I guess we will disagree on that (since it's a completely bizarre notion to begin with)

356 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:13:04am
"I reject the view of some in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less equal"

Huh?

To whom is Obama referring?

357 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:13:52am

re: #356 Occasional Reader

Huh?

To whom is Obama referring?

That was a pretty odd statement. Maybe Old Rev Wright feels that way?

358 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:14:00am

re: #331 pink freud

Are you implying that it is better to tell someone what you think they want to hear instead of the truth?

Sometimes, yes -- flattery can be a better strategy than blunt honesty.

359 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:14:20am
360 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:14:25am

re: #328 Charles

Several right wing blogs are hitting the "sekrit Moslem" theme hard today.

As I noted earlier, Obama practically seemed to be trying to give them fodder with some portions of this speech... I'm thinking in particular of his bizarre "it's my duty as POTUS to fight negative stereotypes about Islam" line.

361 ladycatnip  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:15:35am

#341 enoughalready

Right. Well, let me be clear then. GWB had nothing even close to approaching the quality of the speech writers that are working in the current administration. This says nothing about the messages, just about the quality of the rethoric. If you think that these guys are bad at their jobs then you really are wrong.

This is so interesting - most thinking people who listened to the O during the campaign kept asking, "What the heck is he saying?" Answer: Nothing.

Yes, these writers are good at what they do - the ability to write ambiguously and generalities that never get any clarity. So when you say quality of their rhetoric, I'm thinking Seinfeld - rhetoric about nothing.

362 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:16:30am

re: #359 buzzsawmonkey

He is speaking of the human condition conditioner.

Do you think that this speech stands Head & Shoulders above other pronouncements on the subject?

363 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:16:36am

re: #355 enoughalready

So you think the intended audience for this speech were the leaders of Middle Eastern countries? Ok. Then I guess we will disagree on that (since it's a completely bizarre notion to begin with)

The sun rises in the east, sets in the west, dude. Let me know if there's anything else I can help with.

/no no, I think he had a lot of things he needed to say to his American citizenry that could only be said from a podium in Egypt

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:17:37am

re: #205 zelnaga

That's not how I interpreted it. I interpreted it more as an implicit "if black people can come as far as they have in a situation 10x as worse than the one you're in, surely you can do the same".

I think your interpretation may be accurate, but since it's falling into a region in which people generally believe the Palestinian situation to be 10x worse than, well, anything...

365 transient  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:17:45am
America's strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied.


He then moves directly into the Holocaust. My issue (some may call it nitpicking) is that he reinforces the idea that the Jewish homeland was created because of the Holocaust. It was not. (Eretz) Israel has had a nearly unbroken Jewish presence since Biblical times, and modern return began in the late 19th century, significantly before the Shoah.

It is true that Jewish aspirations to return to our homeland are rooted, in part, in our tragic history, but this tragic history goes back nearly 2,000 years, not just to the Holocaust.

His statement does nothing to refute the (mostly Muslim) contention that Israel is a colonial entity with no historic claim to the area (he speaks of "aspirations," which are something else entirely). If Arab peoples continue to delude themselves that Israel is there only because the colonial powers felt guilty because of the Holocaust, it only makes it harder to recognize reality.

It's not a big surprise that the Arabs refuse to recognize the Jewish narrative in any way, but it's something the American president, if he wants to mediate a peace agreement, must address.

366 altermite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:18:16am

...And now some bloggers are attacking this speech for not being outright insulting to arabs and palestinians, instead of just calling them out on some of their more vile attitudes- violence, holocaust denial.

367 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:19:03am

re: #341 enoughalready

Well, let me be clear then. GWB had nothing even close to approaching the quality of the speech writers that are working in the current administration.

I disagree. Obama's speeches give the appearance of "quality" to many, because of whatever that X Factor is that he does, without a doubt, possess. But if you read any of his speeches, side by side with, say, Bush's post-9/11 addresses, I don't think you'd reach the conclusion that Obama's are of higher quality.

368 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:19:52am

re: #358 Throbert McGee

Sometimes, yes -- flattery can be a better strategy than blunt honesty.

Flattery (also called adulation or blandishment) is the act of giving excessive compliments, generally for the purpose of ingratiating oneself with the subject.

369 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:20:48am

re: #121 Joel

Why does the POTUS feel the need to address the Islamic world? Does he feel the need to address teh Jewish or Christian or Hindu world?

For the same reason that Reagan felt the need to address the Soviets, but not so much the Brazilians or the Japanese, you doorknob.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:21:21am

re: #227 Creeping Eruption

Sure. They provided a shinning example of how not to live and thus provided the impetus for improvement/

You could make the argument that the Renaissance could not have happened (or happened as it did) without the Muslim world pretty easily. The Renaissance can't be boiled down to one aspect, but that is one aspect of it.

371 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:21:48am

re: #368 pink freud

Flattery (also called adulation or blandishment) is the act of giving excessive compliments, generally for the purpose of ingratiating oneself with the subject.

N.F.S.

372 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:21:50am
373 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:23:08am

re: #344 drpangloss

I wish that I could give you many more updings..one thing: The Israelis are not 'settlers'...they are Israelis living on Jewish land in Israel. By everyone calling them 'settlers' it only perpetrates the myth that they are on land that was not given to the Jews.

I am too angry right now re Hussein's alleged speech to say any more. He was ass-kissing the arabs, and spitting on Israel and the Jews.

He is an enemy of both Israel and the Jews, so many of whom voted for him. I wonder if today was a wake up call...I am not so sure, sadly, that it was.

374 transient  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:23:55am

re: #372 buzzsawmonkey

I think it's a sham, filled with poo.


I have no comb-ent.

375 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:24:26am

re: #369 Throbert McGee

For the same reason that Reagan felt the need to address the Soviets, but not so much the Brazilians or the Japanese, you doorknob.

Not fair, Throbert. The point is, that by the act of addressing them as a "Muslim world", Obama is legitimizing the idea that Muslims can make collective demands qua "Muslim world". This is not a right that is generally recognized with regard to any other religion in our times.

So, no, this is not simply the equivalent of feeling the need to address some nation states, and not others.

376 Rancher  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:24:57am

I thought it was pretty good. I'm surprised that he mentioned women's rights at all given the silence on human rights that China received. He mentions the blood we spent defending Muslims and kept the apologies to a mild minimum. You know he can't open his mouth without criticizing Bush but it could have been much worse. One problem I had was the idea that we "impose" democracy on tyrants. Since when is freedom an imposition?

377 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:25:31am

I'm confused. A hair care product pun thread? I hope my thoughts begin to gel soon...

378 horse  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:25:37am

Very interesting thread, but after all the comments it still comes back to what several have already stated; boiler plate with some feel good phrases for every side except the terrorists. The anticipation of possible negative surprises had set the bar so low, many, including myself, are relieved he didn't say it was our fault and are overjoyed he actually blamed the terrorists. Unfortunately, the big question is what his administration will actually do when the words do not translate into results. Probably nothing, other than to continue backing slowly off the stage and letting the actors themselves determine how they will play out the next act in their life and death struggle. The USA is in the process of being benched on the sidelines.

379 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:25:46am

re: #372 buzzsawmonkey

I think it's a sham, filled with poo.

I never imagined he would fritter away our Vidal interests Sassoon in his administration.

380 blueroom127  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:25:51am

Obama mentioning the Holocaust in parallel with the Palestinian situation is deeply bothering to me. Charles, I know you are seeing the good points in that but all I see is a validation of a common "progressive" and Arab equivalence.

It is something akin to comparing Slavery and years of black suffering in the USA to the "trauma" felt by a white person mugged by a black guy in a city street. Ridiculous!

381 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:28:42am

re: #268 n2stox

Are we supposed to be surprised that Obama gave a good speech?

And, can someone explain to me how Islam led Europe into the Renaissance, but failed to take the Islamic world into one of their own?

Referring to Dianna's comment above, "Renaissance" is not the same as "Englightenment". For that, we may have to look to the Turks, who are workin' on it.

Muslim history is various, complicated, and includes some extremely admirable cultures, communities and periods of time.

382 horse  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:29:02am

re: #358 Throbert McGee

Sometimes, yes -- flattery can be a better strategy than blunt honesty.

It is certainly how the majority of people get their mate. :)

383 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:30:14am

re: #263 Walter L. Newton

Sure!

Look up "Nit Picker" in the dictionary and there's a picture of Walter. :) (waiting for obscene comeback)

384 transient  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:30:52am

Obama has always been quick enough to sympathize with Jews as Holocaust victims, but less so to recognize what is necessary to maintain security in their own state.

385 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:31:08am

re: #283 NukeAtomrod

I know he's referring to the Civil Right's Movement here--which was itself not entirely non-violent--, but that ignores the importance of the Civil War-- the bloodiest period in American history--in ending slavery and paving the road for equal rights. This really makes me question Obama's self-professed knowledge of Abraham Lincoln.

It's a speech, not a history lecture. What point would he be making if he suddenly started discussing the Civil War? Encouraging the Arab world to have more of those? Suggesting that violence is the answer after all?

386 Flyers1974  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:32:50am

re: #355 enoughalready

So you think the intended audience for this speech were the leaders of Middle Eastern countries? Ok. Then I guess we will disagree on that (since it's a completely bizarre notion to begin with)

I'm late to this thread, but I couldn't agree more with the idea that this speech (or most speeches on foreign soil) was not meant for leaders. Not an effective or orthodox way to communicate. The exception would be a case where leader number one wants to convey to leader number two the irrevocably of a promised and specific action - by making a public statement that can't be revoked without political damage he may prove his seriousness.

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:34:26am

re: #299 Lynn B.

Listening to the speech at HuffPo.


Hajib? Not the first mispronunciation I've heard.

I was taught it was 'hijab', but my father also says 'hajib', and I think he heard it from a Muslim friend. Is there some kind of regional variation at work?

388 Abu Lahab  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:37:01am

re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist

This is a confusion simply. " Hajib" means "doorman" or "janitor" in Arabic, so the word exists actually and people confuse them. But Hijab is the right spelling.

389 Wendya  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:37:17am

re: #287 Ben Hur

I'm sorry, I don't read that way.

I never said he speech writer used it correctly.

390 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:37:52am

re: #338 drcordell

Not really sure why so many zionist panties are in a twist over this speech. Obama took several paragraphs to explicitly condemn anti-semitism and recognize the legitimacy of Israel's statehood and the horror of the holocaust. Yet because he has chosen to press Israel on the issue of settlement growth (settlements recognized as illegal by the Israeli government) he is now an enemy of Israel?

If there is going to be any progress made towards resolving the Israeli Palestinian conflict, marginalizing far-right extremist groups in Israel is clearly going to be just as important as marginalizing arab terrorist groups like Hamas. Obama is being a realist, not an anti-semite.

Well, my zionist panties are now in a twist because you referred to my zionist panties.

Beyond that, I'm angry that once again, 900,000 people kicked out of countries across the Muslim world are chopped liver as far as the recitation of old woes in the Middle East goes.

Aside from that, not a terrible speech.

391 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:38:25am

I don't get where the "Peace be upon them" incorrect:

"as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed — peace be upon them — joined in prayer. "

392 ashan  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:39:08am

re: #373 NY Nana

I wish that I could give you many more updings..one thing: The Israelis are not 'settlers'...they are Israelis living on Jewish land in Israel. By everyone calling them 'settlers' it only perpetrates the myth that they are on land that was not given to the Jews.

I am too angry right now re Hussein's alleged speech to say any more. He was ass-kissing the arabs, and spitting on Israel and the Jews.

He is an enemy of both Israel and the Jews, so many of whom voted for him. I wonder if today was a wake up call...I am not so sure, sadly, that it was.


Exactly!
Arab (often mistakenly called "Palestinian") violence didn't begin in 1948 with the establishment of the modern State of Israel. Remember that they were slaughtering Jews in the 1920s and '30s in their homes in Safed, inside present-day Israel, just as in the historically Jewish city of Hebron, considered to be illegally settled. Hebron has been home to Jews since ancient times and is Judaism's second holiest site. How could we give this and Jerusalem up to those "Palestinians" who usurp Jewish history to make it theirs?

Hussein's speech was exactly what I thought it would be: an exercise in moral equivalence and rife with obfuscations and outright lies. Puke.

393 odorlesspaintthinner  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:40:11am

Ummm, I don't think this is a speech an American President should ever have given. You want to be gracious to your hosts, sure, quote the Quran. But to quote it 4 times like it's what you believe in (at least once way out of context), when you confess yourself a Christian, is at best patronizing, and his audience knows that. (Call yourself a Christian, hey, quote Christ. Obama doesn't.) And his clear disregard for anything resembling actual history, as he panders shamelessly to an Islamic worldview of self-superiority, makes my skin crawl.

The reason this is also a very dangerous speech is that the only concrete expectation he has is of Israel to stop building settlements. Addressing the "culture of hate" of the Palestinians, or women's rights, or even acknowledging the Holocaust and taking an obvious swipe at Ahmadinejad, those things are still abstract and expectation-less. The Arabs have only to make some progressive-sounding statements to make Obama happy. Israel will be expected to accept a "two-state solution." Obama wants to bring in the peace plan sponsored by Saudi Arabia, which would commit Israel to pre-1967 borders (take a look at those borders, by the way, they include giving away the Golan Heights and leaving Israel 9 miles wide at its thinnest spot) and acceptance, into Israel proper, of numberless (and virtually definition-less) Arab, so-called Palestinian, refugees.

Obama is setting Israel up to fail to "accept peace," in the eyes of the whole world, to the delight of all the Arab nations who will say it is Israel that never wanted peace. Naive or deliberate, dangerous is dangerous.

394 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:40:48am

re: #350 pink freud

If you think that the leaders of the Middle Eastern countries listening to this crap didn't see right through to the core of bullshit upon which it was built, and recognize feel-good platitudes and lack of true substance, then you are wrong. Words ....just words. And they know it.

I think he is sending messages, though, and they're being received. This is all heavily coded, but it doesn't mean it's completely useless.

395 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:42:42am

re: #365 transient

He then moves directly into the Holocaust. My issue (some may call it nitpicking) is that he reinforces the idea that the Jewish homeland was created because of the Holocaust. It was not. (Eretz) Israel has had a nearly unbroken Jewish presence since Biblical times, and modern return began in the late 19th century, significantly before the Shoah.

It is true that Jewish aspirations to return to our homeland are rooted, in part, in our tragic history, but this tragic history goes back nearly 2,000 years, not just to the Holocaust.

His statement does nothing to refute the (mostly Muslim) contention that Israel is a colonial entity with no historic claim to the area (he speaks of "aspirations," which are something else entirely). If Arab peoples continue to delude themselves that Israel is there only because the colonial powers felt guilty because of the Holocaust, it only makes it harder to recognize reality.

It's not a big surprise that the Arabs refuse to recognize the Jewish narrative in any way, but it's something the American president, if he wants to mediate a peace agreement, must address.

Very good points.

396 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:42:45am

re: #394 SanFranciscoZionist

I think he is sending messages, though, and they're being received. This is all heavily coded, but it doesn't mean it's completely useless.


Yeah, he essentially recognized Hamas and invited them to the Table. He is a useless idiot.

397 snowcrash  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:43:59am

re: #393 odorlesspaintthinner
"Obama is setting Israel up to fail to "accept peace," in the eyes of the whole world, to the delight of all the Arab nations who will say it is Israel that never wanted peace. Naive or deliberate, dangerous is dangerous."

I agree. Well said.

398 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:44:23am

re: #384 transient

Obama has always been quick enough to sympathize with Jews as Holocaust victims, but less so to recognize what is necessary to maintain security in their own state.

Like too many others.

399 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:44:48am

re: #369 Throbert McGee

For the same reason that Reagan felt the need to address the Soviets, but not so much the Brazilians or the Japanese, you doorknob.

Before you start throwing out insults you ought to think. We are not at war with the Islamic world (or so Obama says). I am not aware that the Islamic world is considered to be a nation.

Liberals can be awfully (fill in the blanks).

400 Abu Lahab  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:45:33am

re: #394 SanFranciscoZionist

I like your comments SFZ )

401 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:46:47am

re: #388 Abu Lahab

This is a confusion simply. " Hajib" means "doorman" or "janitor" in Arabic, so the word exists actually and people confuse them. But Hijab is the right spelling.

Well, if women want to wear janitors, I'm OK with that too, as long as the janitors agree.

Thanks for the info.

402 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:46:48am

I'm not understanding something -- do you folks who are criticizing the speech for what he didn't say really think that any American president is going to give a speech to the Muslim world and say things that will insult them?

I don't think this speech was everything it could have been, but it's completely unrealistic to expect Obama to rant about Muslim antisemitism or hatred of Israel, or how violence is sometimes necessary, beyond what he said in the speech. If George Bush didn't do that, why would you expect Obama to?

Honestly, I think a lot of the reaction to this speech has nothing to do with the speech itself, but more to do with people's knee-jerk dislike of everything Barack Obama does or says.

It was not a bad speech -- and in many ways it was exactly like the speeches Bush gave about the Muslim world.

403 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:47:18am

re: #392 ashan

Exactly!
Arab (often mistakenly called "Palestinian") violence didn't begin in 1948 with the establishment of the modern State of Israel. Remember that they were slaughtering Jews in the 1920s and '30s in their homes in Safed, inside present-day Israel, just as in the historically Jewish city of Hebron, considered to be illegally settled. Hebron has been home to Jews since ancient times and is Judaism's second holiest site. How could we give this and Jerusalem up to those "Palestinians" who usurp Jewish history to make it theirs?

Hussein's speech was exactly what I thought it would be: an exercise in moral equivalence and rife with obfuscations and outright lies. Puke.

I could not agree with you more....exactly. Very well said.

/Please do not insult puke.

404 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:48:24am

re: #391 avanti

I don't get where the "Peace be upon them" incorrect:

"as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed — peace be upon them — joined in prayer. "

Ah, makes sense. He's referring to three prophets, not one. Sorry, hadn't checked the text again when people started discussing this.

405 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:50:03am

re: #402 Charles

Maybe but he billed it as "Whole New Make it all Good with Muslim World " speech. It wasn't. And Of course he did almost legitimize Hamas?

406 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:50:47am

re: #400 Abu Lahab

I like your comments SFZ )

Why, thank you!

407 ladycatnip  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:51:54am

I read through the speech (skim read some parts) - and yes, lofty comes to mind. Grand and sweeping pronouncements and promises, as he looks right, then left, then right again at Teleprompter.

And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

Really? Since when has that been the responsibility of the POTUS?

And it is my first duty as President to protect the American people.

Glad that was tucked in there 19 paragraphs down. If sequence has anything to do with importance, then he considers fighting islamic stereotypes a bit more important than protecting the American people, by 10 paragraphs.

On education, we will expand exchange programs, and increase scholarships, like the one that brought my father to America, while encouraging more Americans to study in Muslim communities. And we will match promising Muslim students with internships in America; invest in on-line learning for teachers and children around the world; and create a new online network, so a teenager in Kansas can communicate instantly with a teenager in Cairo.

Who is he kidding here. I would never send my blond, blue-eyed daughter to a muslim country to study. This whole education expansion is really globalism, which I have a feeling the American people will be paying for. I would rather he invested in the education of our kids here by raising the standards and giving them more opportunities. They are the future of our country and will be the ones saddled with his spendulus programs.

snark-mode off

#402 Charles

Honestly, I think a lot of the reaction to this speech has nothing to do with the speech itself, but more to do with people's knee-jerk dislike of everything Barack Obama does or says.

Guilty as charged, but wonderfully unrepentant.

408 Flyers1974  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:52:38am

re: #399 Joel

Before you start throwing out insults you ought to think. We are not at war with the Islamic world (or so Obama says). I am not aware that the Islamic world is considered to be a nation.

Liberals can be awfully (fill in the blanks).

We are at war with part of Islam. Talking to the extremists is worthless. Speeches and nicities if combined with other tools MAY help convince non-extremists to not give aid and moral support to terrorists. One reason why in my opinion, there is not more anti-abortion violence in this country is that the vast majority, whether conservative or liberal, disaprove. The idea is to try to create a situation as close to that as possible. If Obama wants to kiss a little and spout some BS in order to try this over there, why not? I don't see the cost in making the attempt.

409 ashan  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:52:49am

re: #403 NY Nana

I could not agree with you more....exactly. Very well said.

/Please do not insult puke.


Thanks Nana. I always like your comments and check your links here and on Carl's blog.

410 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:53:24am

re: #402 Charles

I'm not understanding something -- do you folks who are criticizing the speech for what he didn't say really think that any American president is going to give a speech to the Muslim world and say things that will insult them?

I don't think this speech was everything it could have been, but it's completely unrealistic to expect Obama to rant about Muslim antisemitism or hatred of Israel, or how violence is sometimes necessary, beyond what he said in the speech. If George Bush didn't do that, why would you expect Obama to?

Honestly, I think a lot of the reaction to this speech has nothing to do with the speech itself, but more to do with people's knee-jerk dislike of everything Barack Obama does or says.

It was not a bad speech -- and in many ways it was exactly like the speeches Bush gave about the Muslim world.

In the interest of fairness, I guess it's the same reason some on the left parsed negative spin on every word Bush spoke. It was a speech that Bush could have given, maybe not as smoothly.

411 Pianobuff  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:54:08am

re: #402 Charles

I'm not understanding something -- do you folks who are criticizing the speech for what he didn't say really think that any American president is going to give a speech to the Muslim world and say things that will insult them?

I don't think this speech was everything it could have been, but it's completely unrealistic to expect Obama to rant about Muslim antisemitism or hatred of Israel, or how violence is sometimes necessary, beyond what he said in the speech. If George Bush didn't do that, why would you expect Obama to?

Honestly, I think a lot of the reaction to this speech has nothing to do with the speech itself, but more to do with people's knee-jerk dislike of everything Barack Obama does or says.

It was not a bad speech -- and in many ways it was exactly like the speeches Bush gave about the Muslim world.

Hear Hear. As someone very critical of BO I was expecting much much worse. Can't say it's the speech I would have liked to hear, but it was not the speech I was worried I might hear either. Perhaps more important is that he even gave a speech, any speech. At least now there something approximating a baseline against which to measure responses on all sides (including Obama's future actions). Not having one at all is a worse option IMO.

412 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:55:05am

re: #404 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, makes sense. He's referring to three prophets, not one. Sorry, hadn't checked the text again when people started discussing this.

That's cool, we've all be caught in the spin cycle from both sides.

413 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:55:27am

re: #410 avanti

In the interest of fairness, I guess it's the same reason some on the left parsed negative spin on every word Bush spoke. It was a speech that Bush could have given, maybe not as smoothly.

Yeah and I am sure Bush would have said everything I have done for the last 8 years was wrong and I humbly ask for forgiveness? Give me a Freak en break?

414 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:58:35am

re: #408 Flyers1974

Al that speech was (besides tossing Israel over board) platitudes on top of platitudes. I think he feels that the Arabs would take humility as a sincere attempt at friendship while history shows us that they view humility as weakness. Let's face it, Mubarak's regime is corrupt as all hell but any regime coming after him will be far worse. I am also sick of the 70 years of sycophancy towards Saudi Arabia. BHO mentioned 1200 mosques in America, why could he not say "It would be nice to see synagogues and churches in Saudi Arabia". Why must we be the ones who always have to bend over backwards to placate their sensibilities, how abut saying something like "the anti Semitism that comes out of your state sponsored media is truly vile, as for your problems and the way you blame America, the west and Israel quoting Shakespeare

The fault dear Brutus is not in our stars but in ourselves!
415 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:59:47am

re: #414 Joel

I'm with you.

416 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:01:38pm

re: #281 Thanos

What this amounts to is a naive attempt to undermine the extremists - thinking that somehow if he says it there will be more effect than his predecessors saying it. Who knows, maybe there are flying purple unicorns flitting across the backside of pluto...

True that. Extremists don't generally quit the fight until they've won or died.

But.... we do have a lot of cards in our hands. Why not play this one? I don't see much of a downside.

/Under the only Nixon could go to China theory...

417 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:01:59pm

re: #415 Nevergiveup

Thanks. I had ot get it off my chest. The reviews for Obama's speech reminds me of an actual movie review of Kevin Costner's movie "Waterworld" - "it did not suck as much as I expected!"

418 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:03:46pm

This obsession over "settlements" - I see the hands of Samantha Power and Zbigniew Breszinski (sic) at play. They pulled out of Gaza and what did they get? "Settlemetns" are not the problem, it is Judeophobia that is the problem.

419 kaymad  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #402 Charles

I guess I don't feel the need to be "fair and balanced" when Obama gets such fawning coverage elsewhere. Why should I add to it? Yeah, yeah, he gave a great speech and in the end it means nothing, I don't know why I should pretend otherwise.

If in 10 years something the equivalent to the Berlin wall falling takes place than I'll eat my words. But Frankly, do you think any Arab dictators are shaking in their boots over this? Do you think the "muslim world" is going to rise up, overthrow their dictators, renounce the mistreatment of woman/gays/whatever and change their ways because of a speech from an American, even if his middle name is Hussein? The man obviously believes his own hype and why not? He's got millions here at home worshipping him, why not add a few million more? I won't be one of them. Yeah that Obama can give a good speech. That's nice.

420 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:06:36pm

re: #419 kaymad

I really wish the media would go back to covering politicians the way they are supposed to instead of becoming cheerleaders. They do the nation no good when they run interference for them.

421 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:07:59pm

re: #409 ashan

Thanks. And you the same..here is quite an article:OBAMA BUTTERS THEM UP IN CAIRO

With his trademark humility, President Obama noted in his speech this morning that "change cannot happen overnight" and that one speech in Cairo -- even delivered by him -- will not bring about world peace.Oh, snap!
But if world peace is attained by complimenting those on the other side into submission, he made some serious progress.Obama really buttered them up in Cairo.He thanked them for everything from algebra to the pen, though he curiously failed to mention that they often throw people in prison for using it.He even went so far as to tell the audience that he considers "it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear."Wow. That won't be the last time you hear that line.And anyway, where exactly is that in the oath of office he took?And if talking is going to resolve all the problems in the world, Obama got a good bit of that out of the way today.He talked and talked and talked and talked. And then kept talking.Vacillating between a lecture-some professor and a talk show therapist, Obama started out numbering the grave and important issues he wanted to discuss. After a half-dozen, he junked the whole numbering system.Or, lost count.The problem with talking so much is that you eventually just start babbling and saying a bunch of stuff that makes no sense.At one point, Obama fretted over the rise of new power that, to the horror of civilized people, exudes an obsessed and twisted view of "sexuality" and "mindless violence."
Islamo-fascism?No, the Internet.The guy is confronting one of the most evil and relentless mindsets in the history of man and he finds room in his big address to whine about the Internet -- by far a greater tool for freedom than anything else.He also promised -- again, with his trademark modesty -- to bring to the effort of peace in the Middle East all "the patience that the task requires."That's a lot of patience for one man. Like Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King combined.Good thing he's the master of so much patience because he'll need every bit of it -- even with great speeches in Cairo.

422 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:08:21pm

re: #402 Charles

I'm not understanding something -- do you folks who are criticizing the speech for what he didn't say really think that any American president is going to give a speech to the Muslim world and say things that will insult them?

[snip}

Honestly, I think a lot of the reaction to this speech has nothing to do with the speech itself, but more to do with people's knee-jerk dislike of everything Barack Obama does or says.

Well, I think we have given a few specific examples of what he said that disturbed us. I think many have been fair, and would have criticized Bush's comments as well.

I, for one, am being critical of the POTUS speech, and being quite specific.

Nothing knee jerk here.

423 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:08:48pm
424 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:11:16pm

re: #365 transient

Thank you. Well said and updinged.

425 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:11:52pm

When you were young and naive and had experienced smooth sailing in your life, you always assumed the "good" in most people. Then when you got older and experienced the back of people's hands a bunch of times, you wised up. Obama has always been beloved. If he finds that his words of conciliation are shoved back in his face, maybe he will lose his innocence too. Unless he really is a miracle man, we need that reality check to happen soon.

426 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:13:09pm

re: #423 buzzsawmonkey

Upding for pointing this out--but you didn't go back far enough.

From the first modern attempts by Jews to begin revitalizing the Jewish community in the Land of Israel, in the 1880s, they met with violence from their Arab neighbors. There was not a year from the beginning of the 20th century up through the establishment of Israel as a state that Jews living on legitimately purchased land in the Land of Israel did not have to deal with Arab marauders.

The Hebron Massacre of 1929 is noteworthy only because it exacted a higher death toll, and because the community which it destroyed had been in Hebron since time immemorial, and was in no way connected with the Zionist movement. They were, merely, Jews.

Well I am not so sure the people who were murdered in Hebron in 1929 were not connected with Zionist Movement is entirely correct( they were part of the Yishuv) but other than that it is refreshing to see history quoted accurately unlike Obama's limited view.

427 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #415 Nevergiveup

So am I.

428 ihateronpaul  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:16:28pm

That LA Times guy is a fuck. The sole reason he mentioned Baracks middle name was to stir up the WND crowd.

429 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:17:26pm

21:24 UN investigator Goldstone `shocked` by scale of destruction in Gaza (DPA

Ya mean Gaza was much better before Israel pulled out and the Palestinians had self rule? Shocka.

430 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:19:19pm

re: #429 Nevergiveup

21:24 UN investigator Goldstone `shocked` by scale of destruction in Gaza (DPA

Ya mean Gaza was much better before Israel pulled out and the Palestinians had self rule? Shocka.

Don't hold your breath witing for him to report on the destruction in Sderot.

431 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:21:59pm
432 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:25:27pm

re: #431 buzzsawmonkey

Very well put. And there is a difference between the "old" Yishuv and the "new" Yishuv. By the time of the massacre I am pretty sure the Jewish Community in Hebron had been reinforced by Zionist members.

433 ladycatnip  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:27:10pm

The world weighs in on Obama's speech. A couple excerpts:

SHEIKH ABDULAHI SHEIKH ABU YUSUF, MODERATE SOMALI ISLAMIST

GROUP AHLU SUNNA WALJAMACA

"Obama's speech is good and Islam means peace. Obama, let's follow the verses you quoted from the Koran."

"Al Qaeda has misinterpreted Islam and turned out to be the enemy of all mankind. Islam says let all nations live peacefully and may the chaotic ones be punished. Islam does not order anyone to destroy mosques and churches. Westerners, al Qaeda is a bomb you planted -- let's remove it together."

MOHAMED HABIB, MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD DEPUTY LEADER

"It's a public relations address more than anything else."

"There's an unjust perspective on the part of the American president toward the Palestinian issue, one that does not differ from former President Bush's and the neoconservatives' perspective."

434 MJ  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:30:22pm

Via Taranto at WSJ:

One passage, though, bothers us, because Obama is presenting an ignorant or dishonest account of history:

Threatening Israel with destruction--or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews--is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.
On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people--Muslims and Christians--have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than 60 years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations--large and small--that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own.


To hear this, you'd think that Palestinians have lived under Israeli "occupation" for 60 years. In fact, the West Bank and Gaza were under Arab occupation (by Jordan and Egypt, respectively) until 40 years ago (we're following Obama's convention of rounding to the nearest decade).

What happened 60 years ago was that the U.N. General Assembly passed a resolution calling for Jewish and Arab states in what was then Palestine. The existing Arab states--Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria--rejected the plan, declared war on Israel, and urged Palestinian Arabs to flee their homes, promising their return upon the Arabs' victory.

Israel won instead. Palestinians remain in "refugee camps" in large parts because Arab states, except for Jordan, refuse to allow them to resettle. (By contrast, Israel has absorbed hundreds of thousands of Jews fleeing persecution in Arab countries.) Rather than accept their share of responsibility for the Palestinians' plight, the Arab states still promise the "right of return" upon Israel's defeat.

The president continues:

For decades, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive. It is easy to point fingers--for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought by Israel's founding, and for Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth: the only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security.


Obama presents a false choice: between seeing the conflict "only from one side or the other" and treating Palestinian complaints about "the displacement brought by Israel's founding" and Israeli ones about "the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond" as equivalent and offsetting.

In truth, Israel's founding was not sufficient to bring about Palestinian displacement. Also necessary for the latter was the Arab states' violent rejection of the former. And the perpetuation of the Palestinians' plight is far more the fault of the Arab states (joined recently by Iran), not only for refusing to permit Palestinian immigration but also for giving both material and rhetorical support to Palestinian terrorism against Israel.

Probably it would have been diplomatically unwise for Obama in Cairo to put the matter as bluntly as we have done here. But no real resolution of the conflict is possible so long as the Arab states remain major players and are held to no standard of responsibility for their own actions.

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

435 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:32:05pm

re: #409 ashan

And as a reminder..just WTF have the arab countries given the world beside terrorism, 9/11, London's July 7/o5, 'honor' killings, homicide bombers, missiles into Sderot, abuse of women, child splodey dopes, and so many other things that the mind boggles, while one tiny country, Israel, which has had to fight to exist from time immemorial?

Israel has had to fight again and again..and it was Israel who took out Osirak, Iraq's atom bomb facility, and who will have to do the same to Iran, while Hussein sits on his ass, or under the bed, quivering?

A reminder re Israel, the Jewish homeland..the alleged 'palestinians' are Jordanians that no arab country wants:

436 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:32:59pm

re: #434 MJ

Excellent

437 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:35:14pm
438 ashan  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:41:37pm

re: #423 buzzsawmonkey

Upding for pointing this out--but you didn't go back far enough.

From the first modern attempts by Jews to begin revitalizing the Jewish community in the Land of Israel, in the 1880s, they met with violence from their Arab neighbors. There was not a year from the beginning of the 20th century up through the establishment of Israel as a state that Jews living on legitimately purchased land in the Land of Israel did not have to deal with Arab marauders.

The Hebron Massacre of 1929 is noteworthy only because it exacted a higher death toll, and because the community which it destroyed had been in Hebron since time immemorial, and was in no way connected with the Zionist movement. They were, merely, Jews.

You are absolutely right. I just wanted to give one of the most blatant examples of Arab violence against the Jewish communities of the Yishuv. 1929 was a particularly horrific year among many horrific years.

It should be noted that the Arab nationalists of Palestine, in light of the Allied defeat of Ottoman rule in WWI, declared themselves to be a part of Syria. James Gelvin's pamphlet, "The Israel-Palestine Conflict: 100 Years of War", from 1920, page 98, declares:

"The Decision of the Palestinian General Congress ( Feb 1920)

1. We confirm what we have always said, that Palestine is an integral part of Syria. We demand that it remain so, and shall use all measures to the last drop of our blood and the last breath of our children to achieve this end.

2. Because we come from all parts of Syria, we consider the Zionist danger to be directed against us and against our political and economic existence in the future. We shall therefore throw back the Zionists with all our force. If the allies continue to let them pursue their activities we shall oppose them by all means possible...

O Arab sons of Palestine:
The Syrian nation and the Palestinian associations are incensed that the [allies] would seek to detach Palestine from its motherland Syria, under the guise of establishing a national government. How can we accept the life of slaves to the Jews and foreigners and not defend our political and national rights? Raise your voice, protest this treachery and never fear threats of intimidation... If there exists a man among you who, bribed by gold or honors, rallies to the occupation government, stay away from him, boycott him, and show him your scorn, for he is a traitor to his country and his nation. Likewise, boycott the Jews, sell them nothing and buy nothing from them. Boycott those who sustain them and serve as underlings..."


This effort was effectively quashed by France's separation of Syria from Palestine, which went to the British Mandate.

439 odorlesspaintthinner  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:44:32pm

re: #402 Charles

I'm not understanding something -- do you folks who are criticizing the speech for what he didn't say really think that any American president is going to give a speech to the Muslim world and say things that will insult them?

I don't think this speech was everything it could have been, but it's completely unrealistic to expect Obama to rant about Muslim antisemitism or hatred of Israel, or how violence is sometimes necessary, beyond what he said in the speech. If George Bush didn't do that, why would you expect Obama to?

Honestly, I think a lot of the reaction to this speech has nothing to do with the speech itself, but more to do with people's knee-jerk dislike of everything Barack Obama does or says.

It was not a bad speech -- and in many ways it was exactly like the speeches Bush gave about the Muslim world.

I don't know if I fall into the category being described here, but my problem with the speech, aside from what I described above (only Israel is called on to make concrete concessions), is that a President of the United States is Talking Up Islam as if it's suddenly his "pay grade." He is acting like the wannabe messiah we all laughed at him for during the campaign, he thinks he is the great healer. Is that bad in and of itself? No. It is bad when he thinks he has the moral leverage to take his very public battle of wills with PM Netanyahu into the heart of what amounts to the enemy camp. That's not what "allies" do to each other. He is the wedge that the Arabs have been wanting to drive between the U.S. and Israel, and that space between us "allies" will widen. I'm no prophet but you heard it here first.

440 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:48:34pm

re: #439 odorlesspaintthinner

Well other than not being the first time I heard it or felt it, I'm on board with you!

441 Lynn B.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:59:05pm

re: #410 avanti

In the interest of fairness, I guess it's the same reason some on the left parsed negative spin on every word Bush spoke. It was a speech that Bush could have given, maybe not as smoothly.

No, it's really not, Avanti. There have been some very thoughtful and important points about the dangers of this speech made on this thread and it's utterly unfair to dismiss them so lightly.

Maybe it's just my Zionist panties getting in a wad (to quote a jerk) but this speech made my heart sick in places. And while I wouldn't characterize it as "bad" or as "as bad as it could have been," I agree with those who've said it certainly wasn't a great speech or even a good speech. I'll add that it was more awkwardly delivered than usual for him. Maybe he was nervous? Or maybe the teleprompter was stuttering.

And I want to know where he's going to get all this money to get away to "Muslim-majority nations." Because I already feel (yet another) distinct tug on my wallet.

/I was no fan of most of Bush's speeches either, BTW.

442 odorlesspaintthinner  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 12:59:14pm

re: #440 Nevergiveup

Well other than not being the first time I heard it or felt it, I'm on board with you!

It was original when I thought I thought of it.

443 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:00:13pm

re: #414 Joel

Why must we be the ones who always have to bend over backwards to placate their sensibilities

Sucks to be on the more enlightened side, don't it?

444 jvic  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:00:34pm

re: #203 Buck

Well, the peace with Egypt is holding, and I would not have given it a chance after Sadat was killed. Yes, I know we pay them to keep the peace.... but if I thought the Islamists only wanted money...

re: #219 Kosh's Shadow

It is a quite cold peace. Egypt just doesn't want to be defeated again, and they have the land back (except for Gaza, which they don't want.)
However, Egypt is not a friendly place for Israelis, and Egypt did show a TV adaptation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, called "Horseman Without a Horse".

Noteworthy IMHO: to date, Anwar Sadat is the highest-profile Muslim leader to make peace with Israel, but his name does not appear in the text of the speech.

445 jacksontn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:05:58pm

The democrats want this little problem called "Israel" to go away ... don't believe me ... don't care ... they whispered it before ... they feel more comfortable with saying it a little louder now ...

IMO the speech was just a script ... he performed well ... just like any other actor ... only time will tell what happens ... absolutely nothing we feel matters ... at this time ... they won ... and I am not being a smartass about that ... I pray things work out okay for America and Israel ...

446 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:11:56pm

re: #443 Throbert McGee

Sucks to be on the more enlightened side, don't it?

Sucks to have to patronize people and nations, don't it?

447 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:14:38pm

re: #441 Lynn B.

No, it's really not, Avanti. There have been some very thoughtful and important points about the dangers of this speech made on this thread and it's utterly unfair to dismiss them so lightly.

Maybe it's just my Zionist panties getting in a wad (to quote a jerk) but this speech made my heart sick in places. And while I wouldn't characterize it as "bad" or as "as bad as it could have been," I agree with those who've said it certainly wasn't a great speech or even a good speech. I'll add that it was more awkwardly delivered than usual for him. Maybe he was nervous? Or maybe the teleprompter was stuttering.

And I want to know where he's going to get all this money to get away to "Muslim-majority nations." Because I already feel (yet another) distinct tug on my wallet.

/I was no fan of most of Bush's speeches either, BTW.

Michael Medved summed up the difference between the platitudes in Bush's speeches and this one by saying that Bush clearly didn't mean it.

448 Joel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:20:04pm

re: #447 capitalist piglet

Michael Medved summed up the difference between the platitudes in Bush's speeches and this one by saying that Bush clearly didn't mean it.

I used to get so infuriated when Bush used to spout that nonsense but there was something in me that felt he did not believe a word of the shit he used to say ("Islam is a religion of peace") etc. I believe that Obama actually does believe that.

449 Pianobuff  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:22:24pm

re: #437 taxfreekiller

Two things.

1. The official public speech.

2. The official Government to Government communications done off the record and delivered under heavy seal to the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Chairman (Democrat) John F. Kerry.

Could you elaborate on the 2nd point?

450 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:25:24pm

re: #388 Abu Lahab

This is a confusion simply. " Hajib" means "doorman" or "janitor" in Arabic, so the word exists actually and people confuse them. But Hijab is the right spelling.

As a mnemonic aid, hijab sounds a bit like "head-job," which is how some of the women on ex-Muslim sites refer to the scarf! (As in, something that fucks with your brain.)

451 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:35:14pm

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

Civilization and the rule of law.

452 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:37:44pm

re: #41 Mikey_Dallas

If Obama is going to mention black slavery in America pre civil war, ummmm, he MIGHT have mentioned something about slavery in the Arab world TODAY.....

Always worth repeating.

453 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:37:51pm

re: #451 Kenneth

Civilization and the rule of law.

And caring about the future of your children more than killing your neighbor.

454 MJ  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:40:55pm

Cairo Speech: President Obama Stands with Israel, but Disappoints on Iran

...Mizrahi added, “President Obama’s speech did not convey a sense of urgency on stopping Iran from getting nuclear weapons – although it is clear he does share the goal of preventing a weaponized nuclear Iran. We can’t forget that North Korea’s program started as an energy program and now they are actively testing nuclear weapons in defiance of the United States. We cannot afford for this to happen with Iran, the world’s largest state sponsor of terror.”

Mizrahi said President Obama’s speech also denied basic facts about key security issues and omitted important aspects of today’s realities, including, she said:


• “The fact that until peace is real, President Obama’s goal of a completely nuclear-free world is not consistent with Israel’s need to at least have the impression that it might have nuclear weapons for defensive purposes. We know that deterrence saves a lot of lives.

• “The fact that President Obama did not mention that Israel has said that they don’t want to govern Palestinians and do want to create a better life for the Palestinian people within the context of their own security needs.

• “The fact that President Obama spoke rightly of the suffering of Palestinian refugees without, however, remembering that approximately the same number of Jewish refugees were pushed out of Arab countries.

• “The fact that President Obama didn’t point out that Jewish refugees have gone, and should continue to go, to Israel whereas Palestinians refugees should find their homes in a Palestinian homeland.”

[Link: www.theisraelproject.org...]

455 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:44:29pm

re: #447 capitalist piglet

Michael Medved summed up the difference between the platitudes in Bush's speeches and this one by saying that Bush clearly didn't mean it.

Uh -- so Medved's point is that it was better when Bush said it because ... he was lying?

Ooohkay.

456 gatorbait  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:44:57pm

re: #237 Walter L. Newton

I don't think he will tell the Germans they had it coming.

457 MJ  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:45:56pm

(partial) Response from the ADL to Obama's speech:

"...Regarding the Israelis and Palestinians, it would have been important to hear the President put the conflict into its proper historical perspective -- six Arab nations attacked Israel from day one and the occupation of Palestinian land was a product of Israel's wars of self-defense. While strongly reiterating the importance of America's relationship with the State of Israel and articulating Israel's right to exist, President Obama missed the opportunity to address the misperceptions in the Arab world and to make clear that the Palestinians would have had a state had they accepted the United Nations resolution in 1948.

While he made strong statements against anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial, it should have been made clear that Israel's right to statehood is not a result of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust. We are disappointed that the President found the need to balance the suffering of the Jewish people in a genocide to the suffering of the Palestinian people resulting from Arab wars...

[Link: www.adl.org...]

458 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:48:01pm

re: #97 joo-liz

One thing that really gets to me is that the way he speaks sounds reasonable.

Good catch. That's the reasonable pose Obama takes between two opposing strawman positions. Yet as soon as you examine the fake assumptions under the opposing poles he sets up, (like the myth that Palestinian violence is a response to Israeli settlements on the West Bank), the fraud is exposed.

459 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:49:12pm

re: #455 Charles

Uh -- so Medved's point is that it was better when Bush said it because ... he was lying?

Ooohkay.

Who was it that said--" Both sides know that this is a game intended to manipulate the Arab world into believing there's equal pressure on Israel to make "concessions."?

460 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:51:02pm

re: #458 Kenneth

Good catch. That's the reasonable pose Obama takes between two opposing strawman positions. Yet as soon as you examine the fake assumptions under the opposing poles he sets up, (like the myth that Palestinian violence is a response to Israeli settlements on the West Bank), the fraud is exposed.

Right. The terrorism isn't a response to Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria, but a response to Israeli "settlements" like Tel Aviv.

461 Red Lion  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:51:33pm

As usual, Charles is right on! Keep up the good work, mighty B.S. detector.

462 callahan23  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:54:27pm

I fully agree to this analysis:

Worse than Obamas forged depiction of the Islamic history is the fact that he is missing a moral compass.
He was reveling in moral relativism. Everybody is guilty, nobody is guilty.
The Iranian revolution was bad but so was the toppling of Mossadeq by the Americans.
The holocaust was gruesome but the occupation by Israel is also deplorable.
The president is missing all moral categories.
He sheds no words about the wars the Arabs have forced upon Israel, no mention that the Palestinians rejected in 2000 the offer for their own state and beginning of the intifada.
Obama compares the Palestinians to the black slaves in America of olden times. as if the Palestinians were the slaves of Israel and the Jews their oppressors.
The Palestinians have to stop the violence and need to recognize Israel and Israel needs to stop the settlements. It is all equally bad and all the same. There are no moral distinctions, regardless if one builds a house on disputed territory or kills civilians and wants to annihilate the followers of a different religion.

This text is an excerpt from a larger article by Joachim Steinhöfel that I translated from German. For those Lizards who are able to read German here is the full article.

463 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:56:55pm

re: #127 nyc redneck

he really lauded islam for all the alleged contributions it has made to civilization.
in direct contrast to how he has never seemed proud of america or discussed any of the real amazing contributions his own country has made to world.
his thinking is fundamentally flawed.

Contrary to what Obama said in his speech, Muslims did not invent the magnetic compass, the sextant, or movable type printing: the Chinese did. Algebra was invented by Indians. The arches in early Islamic architecture were created by Greek and Gothic architects. There has been no significant contribution to serious music from the Muslim world.

I don't know why Muslims insist on repeating these fictions to themselves or what need it fills for them, but it is pure bullshit. Do they really need the Narcissist in Chief to stroke the withered Muslim ego like this?

464 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 1:57:59pm

re: #453 Nevergiveup

And in the words of great Golda Meir zt"l?

“We will have peace with the arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”

465 MJ  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:04:26pm

David T from Harry's Place points out another interesting point from today's speech:

...In his Cairo speech, Obama made the following statement:

Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance. We see it in the history of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition

Can anybody explain precisely what Obama was referring to?

On first glance, it looks like a reference to the so-called ‘Golden Age’ in Al Andalus. During the Golden Age, Jews - and Christians - were subject to a certain degree of formal discrimination, but largely prospered. Life was certainly better than in places like England, where Jews were repeatedly massacred and ultimately expelled.

That “golden” period definitively came to an end by the close of the 11th Century, and the invasion of the less tolerant Almoravids from North Africa.

But why Cordoba? What happened there?

In 1011, there was a massacre of Jews in Cordoba: which was followed by other slaughters in other parts of Al Andalus, notably in Granada in 1066. The famous Jewish scholar, Maimonides originally lived in Cordoba in the early 12th century, until the Almohades dynasty took the city, and threatened to kill any Jews who did not leave or convert to Islam. Maimonides’ family relocated to the more tolerant university city of Fes, in Morocco...

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

466 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:07:33pm

re: #457 MJ

All of the facts laid out in that ADL analysis are fundamentally correct, this is true. But staring back into history to place the blame isn't going to change any of the current realities. At a certain point doesn't fixing the clusterf*ck and stopping the bloodshed take precedence over figuring out who to blame? Yes, the Arab nations completely sold the Palestinians down the river. But re-hashing that fact over and over isn't going to accomplish anything.

467 littleben  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:07:33pm

Pandering to Muslims and insulting to Jews.
Why should our government get involved in making Zakat affordable? Did BHO offer to subsidized Bar Mitzvahs.

The "hands" were callous.
Lets see how it works in another setting;

On the one hand, black suffering during 300 years of slavery must be acknowledged and condemned. In fact I am going to The MLK memorial next week to lay a wreath.

On the other hand, black on white crime since Brown vs Board of Ed and the humiliation caused by a lack of opportunity for advancement by whites due to Affirmative Action policies has resulted in Oppression of Whites.

He threw Israel under the Bus.

468 J.S.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:10:28pm

there was Ed Henry (?) who did a report on "Obama in election mode" when he was denying any/all connections with Islam...switch "Obama wants to woo Muslim world" and suddenly it's all about his Muslim roots. Now there's a consummate politician (I'm sure the electorate in the United States will never notice.)

There was another comment by someone at CNN who admired Obama's speech for all its completely contradictory messages (he listed them off -- it was hilarious -- I'll have to look for the transcript tomorrow..), and he summed it up by suggesting it was like listening to a man attempting to woo five different wives...

469 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:11:15pm

re: #467 littleben
Hahahahaha yes Ben, the poor oppressed white males in America. I'd respond to your mis-reading of Obama's comments on zakat, but I'm laughing too hard.

470 bubbasbbq  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:11:46pm

It was crap. it will change nothing and get him laughed and cursed at by the hardcore extremists in between puffs of their opium laced cigarettes. What the hell was he Talking about spires and arches being a muslim invention? They were, in fact, developed and popularized by the ROMANS and ESTRUSCANS. Get your facts straight.

And why is it that Iran is free to build nuclear reactors for peaceful purposes and we, the american people ARE NOT?

471 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:16:44pm
472 MJ  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:18:24pm

re: #466 drcordell

All of the facts laid out in that ADL analysis are fundamentally correct, this is true. But staring back into history to place the blame isn't going to change any of the current realities. At a certain point doesn't fixing the clusterf*ck and stopping the bloodshed take precedence over figuring out who to blame? Yes, the Arab nations completely sold the Palestinians down the river. But re-hashing that fact over and over isn't going to accomplish anything.

Obama/Clinton have made a fetish of speaking the "truth" to Israel.
So he goes to Cairo and massages the Palestinian/Arab sense of victim- hood?
He goes to Cairo and lays the blame at Israel but the Arab/Palestinians are perfectly innocent?
The ADL is correct.
The cause of Palestinian suffering has been and remains Arab rejectionism.

473 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:20:59pm

re: #463 Kenneth

Contrary to what Obama said in his speech, Muslims did not invent the magnetic compass, the sextant, or movable type printing: the Chinese did. Algebra was invented by Indians. The arches in early Islamic architecture were created by Greek and Gothic architects. There has been no significant contribution to serious music from the Muslim world.

I don't know why Muslims insist on repeating these fictions to themselves or what need it fills for them, but it is pure bullshit. Do they really need the Narcissist in Chief to stroke the withered Muslim ego like this?

lol,
he just wanted to make them feel good abt. their stagnant medieval culture.
i think the only thing they did was calligraphy and tile work.
a paltry contribution.
the koran really is restrictive.

474 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:21:22pm
475 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:27:52pm

re: #472 MJ

Is it perhaps possible that this issue is not simply black and white? You insist on analyzing everything in absolutes. Yes, the Arab nations that launched the 6-day war are complicit in the plight of the Palestinians. But Israel is currently the occupying power, which naturally places them smack-dab in the middle of the peace process.

You use the same black and white, with us or against us rationale when referring to Obama's speech. This speech wasn't aimed at Israel, it was aimed at the Islamic population of the world. And in it he explicitly laid out his unflinching support for Israel's existence, spoke out directly against anti-semitism AND attacked those who deny the holocaust. And all you glean from his speech is that he is "laying the blame on Israel" because he dared to mention his request that Israel stop further settlement growth?

476 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:30:45pm

I think this was a good speech. Anti extremist, anti-isolationist, and pro democracy and education (I think he was right to highlight the importance of womens education; among other good things, it is associated with lower birth rates).

For contrast, some of the main points of the speech it seems many on the right would have preferred Obama to have given:

1) America is the greatest country in the world.

2)Islam sucks.

3) Don't try and give me this 'moderate muslim' bull - we can see through you.

4)Israel is right.

5)The Palestinians are WRONG.

6) Fuck you! and thank you, good night.

477 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:33:27pm
478 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:34:30pm

re: #474 buzzsawmonkey

No, that's not what I said. I'm saying that it's not a black and white issue, and there is culpability on both sides here. Look, the status quo has millions of Palestinians surrounded by a military checkpoints, with economic growth completely stagnated due to a blockade. The status quo also has rockets raining down on Israel, and pointless blood being spilled, Israeli and Palestinian alike. Maybe it's time to try and end the clusterf*ck.

479 ashan  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:38:10pm

re: #463 Kenneth

Contrary to what Obama said in his speech, Muslims did not invent the magnetic compass, the sextant, or movable type printing: the Chinese did. Algebra was invented by Indians. The arches in early Islamic architecture were created by Greek and Gothic architects. There has been no significant contribution to serious music from the Muslim world.

I don't know why Muslims insist on repeating these fictions to themselves or what need it fills for them, but it is pure bullshit. Do they really need the Narcissist in Chief to stroke the withered Muslim ego like this?


Movable type was invented by Johannes Gutenberg around 1439, not the Chinese. The Chinese invented paper. Most of the musical instruments and the scales used in Middle Eastern music are pre-Islamic Persian. (The names of the scales remain today.)

480 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:40:42pm
481 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:44:40pm

re: #477 buzzsawmonkey

Why does Obama insist on inserting himself into the Palestinian issue? Because it involves America whether we like it or not. Because of our support for Israel, Israeli actions will forever be linked to America on the global stage. And if we are going to be involuntarily thrust into the problem, we might as well try and be part of the solution. Obama is trying to seize this opportunity, and act as an honest broker to actually get some shit done for once.

Your worldview seems to be that of Bush. There's good guys, there's bad guys, and that is the end of that. It doesn't work like that in the real world. This isn't some goddamn western movie. There is nuance, and there is culpability on both sides. To deny these realities is just going to keep this conflict going indefinitely.

482 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:50:31pm

re: #481 drcordell

Why does Obama insist on inserting himself into the Palestinian issue? Because it involves America whether we like it or not. Because of our support for Israel, Israeli actions will forever be linked to America on the global stage. And if we are going to be involuntarily thrust into the problem, we might as well try and be part of the solution. Obama is trying to seize this opportunity, and act as an honest broker to actually get some shit done for once.

Your worldview seems to be that of Bush. There's good guys, there's bad guys, and that is the end of that. It doesn't work like that in the real world. This isn't some goddamn western movie. There is nuance, and there is culpability on both sides. To deny these realities is just going to keep this conflict going indefinitely.

drcordell ... where do you believe Obama falls? ... is he a good guy or a bad guy or just something just right ... and if this speech was not just like a "Bush" speech ... where do you see the difference? ... and the "whether we like it or not" ... do you like it? ... would you rather see the United States step away from Israel? ...

483 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:50:33pm

re: #481 drcordell

Why does Obama insist on inserting himself into the Palestinian issue? Because it involves America whether we like it or not. Because of our support for Israel, Israeli actions will forever be linked to America on the global stage. And if we are going to be involuntarily thrust into the problem, we might as well try and be part of the solution. Obama is trying to seize this opportunity, and act as an honest broker to actually get some shit done for once.

Your worldview seems to be that of Bush. There's good guys, there's bad guys, and that is the end of that. It doesn't work like that in the real world. This isn't some goddamn western movie. There is nuance, and there is culpability on both sides. To deny these realities is just going to keep this conflict going indefinitely.

Israel has given back--OK lets say relinquished control of Gaza and most of the West Bank and what exactly have they gotten in return? Have the Arabs tried to make what land they control a normal functioning civilized society? Have the Arabs tried to improve the lot of the poor unfortunate Palestinians? Have the Arabs stopped inciting violence against the Jews? Have the Arabs built any recognizable civilized functioning governmental bodies?

484 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:50:57pm

re: #465 MJ

From David T at Harry's Place's main article on Obama's speech:

"A good speech...(snip)

...The namechecking of Bosnia and Darfur was spot on.

Here is Obama on Israel/Palestine. It is worth reading in full.

The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is the situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world.

America’s strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied.

Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and antisemitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed – more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction – or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews – is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.

On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people – Muslims and Christians – have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than 60 years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighbouring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations – large and small – that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own.

...(snipped because of post length restrictions - read the full except in the link given)

America will align our policies with those who pursue peace, and say in public what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and Arabs. We cannot impose peace. But privately, many Muslims recognise that Israel will not go away. Likewise, many Israelis recognise the need for a Palestinian state. It is time for us to act on what everyone knows to be true.

This could have been a Harry’s Place article, n’est ce pas?"

485 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:51:43pm
486 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:52:50pm

re: #481 drcordell

Why does Obama insist on inserting himself into the Palestinian issue? Because it involves America whether we like it or not. Because of our support for Israel, Israeli actions will forever be linked to America on the global stage. And if we are going to be involuntarily thrust into the problem, we might as well try and be part of the solution. Obama is trying to seize this opportunity, and act as an honest broker to actually get some shit done for once.

Your worldview seems to be that of Bush. There's good guys, there's bad guys, and that is the end of that. It doesn't work like that in the real world. This isn't some goddamn western movie. There is nuance, and there is culpability on both sides. To deny these realities is just going to keep this conflict going indefinitely.

the reality you are denying is that the palis don't want real peace w/ israel.
they want the israel land and they want the jews in the sea.
these are THEIR terms, which they have expressed many times.
can you see how that "nuance" would be a bit of a problem for israel?

487 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:52:56pm

re: #481 drcordell

Why does Obama insist on inserting himself into the Palestinian issue? Because it involves America whether we like it or not. Because of our support for Israel, Israeli actions will forever be linked to America on the global stage. And if we are going to be involuntarily thrust into the problem, we might as well try and be part of the solution. Obama is trying to seize this opportunity, and act as an honest broker to actually get some shit done for once.

Your worldview seems to be that of Bush. There's good guys, there's bad guys, and that is the end of that. It doesn't work like that in the real world. This isn't some goddamn western movie. There is nuance, and there is culpability on both sides. To deny these realities is just going to keep this conflict going indefinitely.

Oh, and drcordell ... you are not whispering any longer ... I hear what you are saying ...

488 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:55:05pm

re: #480 buzzsawmonkey

Heading out, so this is the last post for a few. You seemingly blame every single Palestinian man, woman, and child for the rocket attacks. Every single person in Gaza and the West Bank is suffering for the actions of extremists. By your logic one single asshole with a bomb should de-rail the entire peace process for millions of arabs and israelis?

Can you associate the actions of all Palestinians with that of terrorist scum? No. Can you equate the sentiments of extreme right-wing Israeli settlers building illegal outposts with that of the general Israeli public? Of course not.

The moderates on both sides of the border are having their views drowned out by the extreme elements on both sides. The majority of Israelis just want the violence to end, and are willing to sacrifice settlements to do so. The majority of Palestinians want the blockade to end and the military checkpoints to end so they can live a normal, peaceful life.

If you break everything down to Israel = good, Palestinians = bad, jack shit is going to happen.

489 MJ  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:55:56pm

The Age of Middle East Atonement
Therapeutic efforts to disguise the truth never really work.
Victor Davis Hanson

"...President Obama’s intent is noble, but therapeutic efforts to disguise the truth never really work. We will see how the short-term good created by his therapeutic speechmaking compares to the long-term harm caused by telling the Muslim world, once again, that its problems were largely created by us — and, therefore, that we are largely responsible for providing the remedies..."


[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

490 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 2:57:27pm

re: #488 drcordell

Here's your suffering. Reality check time, dcordell.

491 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:00:36pm

Ha ha ha ... I just had a thought ... what if Hillary had won? ... LOL ... wonder how a speech by an American Female President would have gone over today? ... Would she have had to put on the scarf to give the speech still? ... OMG ... just for that reason (not really) ... I would love to see a woman president ....

492 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:03:25pm
493 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:06:12pm

re: #483 Nevergiveup

Israel has given back--OK lets say relinquished control of Gaza and most of the West Bank and what exactly have they gotten in return? Have the Arabs tried to make what land they control a normal functioning civilized society? Have the Arabs tried to improve the lot of the poor unfortunate Palestinians? Have the Arabs stopped inciting violence against the Jews? Have the Arabs built any recognizable civilized functioning governmental bodies?

when the palis got gaza, they ripped that place up like a sow's bed.
destroyed the green houses, stole the irrigation equipment and materials.
those green houses supplied so much produce to israel at one time.
the palis rather than seeing the value of feeding themselves, chose to piss and crap all over the very operation that could have been of such help to them.
they ended up digging tunnels and using the facilities to store weapons.

israel can't make any more concessions to such seething brutes.
they need to forget abt. stupid hussein and his ill founded plans that will put them in danger.
it will be their lives on the line, not the meddlesome o's.

494 Wise Man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:07:50pm

I don't think you guys got it. As a left-center Israeli, I would sign onto 90% of the words and phrasess in the speech But Presidential speeches are not Debating Team, and the question is not whether I agree with him; the historical importance of the speech is the new direction in which it points for US policies: a specific and intentiaonl alliance with Muslem states.
The assumption is that by siding with the "good guys" of Islam, the people will realize that modenization and an end to w=conflict is in their best interest, and Pease will break out.
Well, that's precisely what we thought on the left in Israel would happen as a result of the Peace Iinitiative of 1993-4. We scoffed at rigfht-wing Israelis who said we didn't understand Arab mentality, that there is NEVER an enbd to conflict in this civilization, and to prepare for the worst.


Guess what? I admit - they were right and I was wrong.
So also - Obama may get just the opposite of what whe thinks he will get: the extremists will use the opening of American borders and interessts to make the most painful hits that they can ...

But there is another worrisome feature of all this: the possibility that

495 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:12:55pm

re: #494 Wise Man

I'd like to hear the rest of your thoughts on this ...

496 Oldbluesboy  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:15:02pm

Nice speech, Axelrod. Typical.

America (U.S.A.) is a country.
Islam is a religion.
America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
Islam is a religion.
This is not about America versus Islam.
It is Islam versus the rest of the world where infidels live.
It is the ultimate objective for Islam, according to the Quran, to kill ALL infidels, as well as Muslims who have ties to the infidel pigs.
This is a holy war as far as they are concerned.
Give them our tax money, Obama, so they can carry out there mission easier.
What in the hell are we thinking?

Google Hillary Obama Alinsky

497 Wise Man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:17:24pm

instead of America reforming Islam, Islam will reshape America. The cultural and social and political ties which Obama Will form with the Muslim world will make Americans more open to Muslim beliefs, prejudices and values. More Americans will downgrade the Holocaust to just another tragic event; the perception of Israel as the Evil Empire will become dominant; Muslim myths about the absence of Jewish presence in the Holy Land will become much more accepted; etc. etc. As more and more business, social, telecommunication and political ties are formed, Americans will see the natural lot with the Billion Muslims; and even Christianity will become reformed as a kind of Dhimmi cult.
That is unfortunately the unintentional result of the well-meaning and even in large measure correct language and direction of his speech.
Sorry about the misspellings - by mistake I sent an unedited comment!

498 enginemike  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:26:39pm

The Palestinian people can have a two state solution (actually they effectively have one now) by doing the following difficult thing: They have to say "ok".

But they won't.

Anyone how thinks anything else will work is a fool.

499 BIGDUKE 6  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:38:04pm

Mr. President :The so-called "Right of Return" -- Not one mention of what huge hindrance to peace that is ! But those ever expanding West Bank settlements THEY have got to go !

500 Hawaii69  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:44:05pm

But..bu..bu..but....but Obama hates the Joos!

Right?

501 Qgrey  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:48:00pm

One serious mistake that Obama made during his speech, that in my opinion will continue to dampen any semblance of peace in that area is the following (and I quote):

"America's strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied."

The history of Israel is not 61 years old, it's over two thousand!

Obama links the establishment of the Jewish nation to the Holocaust, which is a false statement. The Jewish nation has lived and flourished in that small stretch of land for millenia, until their exile from their homeland by the Romans in 70 A.D.

This inaccuracy only serves to fuel the falsehoods that the creation of the state of Israel was caused by the Europeans guilty of the Holocaust, and that the Arabs leaving on that land at the time have to atone for those crimes.

In my opinion, he should have legitimized the historical connection of the Jewish people to the land of Israel. By announcing that to the Muslim world clearly, it might have given pause to the current status quo, and maybe helped created a new way of thinking in respect to the situation that the Middle East has been mired in for almost a century.

That would have been a perfect example of change.

502 Hawaii69  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 3:52:52pm

re: #3 Kosh's Shadow

Reposted from the dead thread:
Some of my comments on the speech:


If the Palis recognize Israel, they will receive recognition in return. And the problems the Palis have are the direct result of violence; Obama needs to recognize that.
He does go on about religious freedom; did mention the Copts; and said women deserve better. All good points, but I don't have time for more analysis.
Overall - mostly good, but I wish he'd realize how much of an obstacle the Palis are to their having a state, and stop blaming Israel for defending itself.

re: #52 DaddyG

"Muslims are free to be Muslims in the US."

I'll say...

Just ask Army Pvt. William Andrew Long and Pvt. Quinton I. Ezeagwula how free Abdulhakim Muhammad was to express his religious convictions.


Please. He has been arrested for murder, has he not?

503 Hawaii69  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 4:04:34pm

re: #488 drcordell

Heading out, so this is the last post for a few. You seemingly blame every single Palestinian man, woman, and child for the rocket attacks. Every single person in Gaza and the West Bank is suffering for the actions of extremists. By your logic one single asshole with a bomb should de-rail the entire peace process for millions of arabs and israelis?

Can you associate the actions of all Palestinians with that of terrorist scum? No. Can you equate the sentiments of extreme right-wing Israeli settlers building illegal outposts with that of the general Israeli public? Of course not.

The moderates on both sides of the border are having their views drowned out by the extreme elements on both sides. The majority of Israelis just want the violence to end, and are willing to sacrifice settlements to do so. The majority of Palestinians want the blockade to end and the military checkpoints to end so they can live a normal, peaceful life.

If you break everything down to Israel = good, Palestinians = bad, jack shit is going to happen.

...and for this reasoned, respectfully delivered comment,
you were downdinged to a -6

Hopefully, it brought those people some kind of silly sense of satisfaction to

hurt


your karma......

504 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 4:05:45pm
One of my biggest criticisms is the very weak statement Obama made about women’s rights; I think this is one of the most critical issues the Islamic world needs to address in order to effect real change, but Obama spent only three paragraphs on it, and didn’t say much other than to note that women need the right to education:

I know there is debate about this issue. I reject the view of some in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is denied equality. And it is no coincidence that countries where women are well-educated are far more likely to be prosperous.

There’s much more to the overwhelming misogyny of the Islamic world than simply a lack of education, and this is a much larger problem than Obama’s speech seems to recognize.

Thank you- you're absolutely right. It's more than hijab and education.

505 Hawaii69  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 4:11:16pm

re: #276 pink freud

Why would someone schooled in in a madrassa as a child make the mistake of saying '...and Mohammed, Peace Be Unto Them', instead of 'Peace be Unto Him'?

I haven't read the text yet ...has anyone seen that in there? Just strange, that's all. Kinda makes him look like a doofus.


....because he was never schooled in a Madrassa.

This was debunked long ago.

506 Edward Halper  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 4:57:17pm

Most of this speech could have been given by Bush--and actually was. What may have been new is the tone--more self-abasing about America. It was meant to inspire democratic elements. We'll have to see. I'm concerned that it will have be perceived as an acknowledgment of weakness and therefore have the opposite effect.

According to the NY Times at the time, the war against the Russians in Afghanistan in the 1980s was provoked by Russian efforts to educate women. So Obama's endorsement of education for women is a bigger deal than people realize. It's so big that it may well undermine the positive effects of other parts of the speech.

507 loppyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:24:56pm

re: #472 MJ

Obama/Clinton have made a fetish of speaking the "truth" to Israel.
So he goes to Cairo and massages the Palestinian/Arab sense of victim- hood?
He goes to Cairo and lays the blame at Israel but the Arab/Palestinians are perfectly innocent?
The ADL is correct.
The cause of Palestinian suffering has been and remains Arab rejectionism.

Agreed.

He should have called out the Arab countries that do nothing to help the Palestinian people. Last time I checked, Egypt wasn't too keen on opening their borders to their Arab brothers and sisters.

508 LAObserver  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:15:01pm

re: #20 Occasional Reader

I'll repeat my request from the previous thread; can anyone enlighten me as to what are the formal, necessary aspects of "statehood" which the Palestinians are allegedly still missing?

I'd say territorial sovereignty is pretty obvious.

509 LAObserver  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:21:49pm

re: #492 buzzsawmonkey


not just the so-called "Palestinians" with a few people building on land Israel legitimately won from belligerents is a stupid moral posture.

You know the "so-called Palestinian" thing is really starting to piss me off. That is like Holocaust denial. It is just inane. I know Palestinians. They can show me on a map where they were born and grew up, they can show me photographs of their childhood, they can show me books, published in the 1930s that include the word "Palestinian", they can show me passports, issued by Syria, which identify them as Palestinian. Hell, the British called them Palestinians long before Israel existed. You can have your opinion about the conflict, but denying the existence of a people is just stupid.

510 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:33:09pm
511 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:34:34pm
512 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:37:20pm

re: #492 buzzsawmonkey

As far as I can tell from your posts, your "moral posture" is basically, all Arabs are terrorists and they will always be terrorists, even the children. So where does that leave Israel? What are they to do with the million plus terrorists living right next to them who will never cease to stop attacking them? What is the end game?

If terror attacks from the PalestiniansArabs are inevitable no matter what Israel does, what does Israel have to lose by participating in the peace process? Make Palestine a state, seal off the borders with giant ass concrete walls, if the terrorism continues, justifiably bomb the shit out of them. If the terrorism stops, Israel gets peace, the Arabs get peace, everybody wins.

513 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:42:14pm
514 LAobserver  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:44:20pm

re: #510 buzzsawmonkey

Until the Arabs battened on "Palestinian" in the mid-Sixties, they called themselves...Arabs. Not "Palestinians," and not even "Palestinian Arabs." Just Arabs.

"Palestinian" was used to describe the Jews who lived in the area of the Palestine Mandate (between the River and the Sea, to borrow a phrase; the rest of the Mandate was closed to Jews by the British), prior to Israel's independence.

There were no Syrian passports issued to "Palestinians" in the 1930s; the Palestine Mandate was British territory, and Syria was under French influence.

the passport part is true. I am referring to passports issued in the 1960's. But that somewhat speaks to my point, Syrian Arabs referred to Palestinian Arabs as a different culture. They are a people with a distinct culture heritage that live in a distinct part of the world. Are you going to do deny that there is such a thing as Syrian too? Jordanian? Iraqi? Are you the arbiter of ethnic identify? Is there only one Arab identity according to you? If that's the case, should there only be one Anglo identity? You are as bad as the extremists in the Muslim World that just refer to everything in the West as the same thing.

515 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:46:59pm

re: #507 loppyd

Agreed.

He should have called out the Arab countries that do nothing to help the Palestinian people. Last time I checked, Egypt wasn't too keen on opening their borders to their Arab brothers and sisters.

You assume that the residents of the Gaza Strip and West Bank all wish to move to Egypt. Why should they be forced to abandon their homeland? Arabs, Palestinians, whatever you want to call them, they've been living in "Palestine" for generations. It's completely understandable that they do not wish to uproot themselves and leave for elsewhere in the Middle East.

516 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:52:14pm
517 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:54:06pm
518 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:56:14pm

re: #513 buzzsawmonkey

You didn't answer the question. You seem to believe that the "Arabs" will remain bloodthirsty indefinitely. If that is the case, the terror attacks will continue as long as Arabs and Israelis continue to be neighbors. What's the endgame? A constant state of war for Israel for all eternity?

If terror attacks are a given, what is there to lose from creating a Palestinian state? Israel would simply gain international support for military actions taken against the terrorists, because once Palestine exists, the rationale for "resistance" ceases to exist. If the terror continues, Israel is completely justified in bombing Palestine till it glows. What is the downside?

519 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:57:54pm

re: #517 buzzsawmonkey

Israel itself is a welfare recipient. The U.S. pumps more foreign aid to Israel than nearly all other recipients combined. What's your point?

520 loppyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:05:04pm

re: #515 drcordell

You assume that the residents of the Gaza Strip and West Bank all wish to move to Egypt. Why should they be forced to abandon their homeland? Arabs, Palestinians, whatever you want to call them, they've been living in "Palestine" for generations. It's completely understandable that they do not wish to uproot themselves and leave for elsewhere in the Middle East.

You make it sound like they have a choice as to whether they can decide to enter Egypt.

I guess you choose not to remember the images of Palestinians breaking through the fence into Egypt and the not so hospitable reaction of the Egyptian government.

521 loppyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:07:26pm

re: #518 drcordell

You didn't answer the question. You seem to believe that the "Arabs" will remain bloodthirsty indefinitely. If that is the case, the terror attacks will continue as long as Arabs and Israelis continue to be neighbors. What's the endgame? A constant state of war for Israel for all eternity?

If terror attacks are a given, what is there to lose from creating a Palestinian state? Israel would simply gain international support for military actions taken against the terrorists, because once Palestine exists, the rationale for "resistance" ceases to exist. If the terror continues, Israel is completely justified in bombing Palestine till it glows. What is the downside?

That's a laugh riot. I think I just saw a unicorn gallop past my window, too.

522 loppyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:08:11pm
523 loppyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:09:59pm
524 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:10:14pm

Hillary Clinton just said to Greta van Susteren that Pres. Obama's speech today will go down in history, bla bla bla. She's brown-nosing so much, it's pathetic.

525 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:15:43pm

re: #519 drcordell

Israel itself is a welfare recipient. The U.S. pumps more foreign aid to Israel than nearly all other recipients combined. What's your point?

* * * * *
It's so inapt to call Israel a "welfare recipient" is wrong on its face.

How many welfare recipients produce high tech exports, Nobel prizes, excellence in the professions, and cultural achievements all over the place, in addition to being model global citizens as the ONLY democracy in their neighborhood?

To call advanced, educated, democratic & diverse Israel a welfare recipient no different than its backward, basket case, theocratic islamic republic neighbors, is laughable.

527 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:25:17pm

re: #520 loppyd

Yes loppy, there are Palestinians that wish to enter Egypt. But to imply that if Egypt simply opened their border, every single Palestinian would leave their home and move to Egypt is completely absurd. Yes, Egypt closing their border isn't helping the humanitarian crisis. But if Egypt opened the border, the Israel/Palestine conflict would continue to exist. Sorry to interfere with your fun blaming it all on Egypt.

528 loppyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:32:13pm

re: #527 drcordell

Yes loppy, there are Palestinians that wish to enter Egypt. But to imply that if Egypt simply opened their border, every single Palestinian would leave their home and move to Egypt is completely absurd. Yes, Egypt closing their border isn't helping the humanitarian crisis. But if Egypt opened the border, the Israel/Palestine conflict would continue to exist. Sorry to interfere with your fun blaming it all on Egypt.

That isn't what I was implying. That is what you are choosing to hear.

I was making the point that Obama failed to point out the apathy of Arab countries.

529 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:08:11pm
530 pink freud  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:22:06pm

re: #529 buzzsawmonkey

Glorifying victims and victim-hood validates the liberal world view, buzz. Take that filter away and there's not much left.

531 drcordell  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:40:47pm

re: #530 pink freud
You really think my motivating factor is the plight of the Palestinians? I really couldn't care less quite frankly. I'm an American, and I'm concerned with the national security of the U.S. Mitigating the Israeli/Palestinian problem will be a huge boon to the national security of the United States, not to mention Israel herself.

532 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:45:57pm
533 LAobserver  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:42:45pm

re: #516 buzzsawmonkey


No, there was no distinct "Palestinian culture"--either in reality or in the minds of the Arabs--until the invention of "Palestinians" in the 1960s. Whether there is one now is certainly questionable. What, aside from the invention of suicide bombing, does it consist of?

I am guessing there is really no point in arguing with you about this. I could point out that no serious scholarly research on the formation of Palestinian identity puts it later than the beginning of the 20th century. However, might it be better to ask why you should have the hubris to say that millions of people, including some 100 thousand in the United States that have a culture and history are simply making it up? That is simply arrogant and ignorant.

534 Hawaii69  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:07:59am

The irony is that the same people who downdinged DrCordell for his respectfully worded opinion, downdinged me for pointing out how small and petty they are for having done so.

Pink Freud, JacksonTN, and friends.....I'm more than happy to lose your popularity contest. Small minds.

535 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 4:38:01am
536 LAObserver  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 7:58:30am

re: #535 buzzsawmonkey

Seeing as how "Palestine" did not exist as a separate entity until after the Ottoman Empire was carved up following the end of WWI--18 years into the 20th century--it is hard to see where/how such an "identity" would have come into existence in the prior generation.
.

Seeing as how "Palestine" Ireland did not exist as a separate entity until after the Ottoman British Empire was carved up following the end of WWI--18 years into the 20th century--it is hard to see where/how such an "identity" would have come into existence in the prior generation.

Seeing as how "Palestine" Germany did not exist as a separate entity until after the Ottoman Empire Holy Roman Empire was carved up following the end of WWI--18 years into the 20th century-- of the Napoleanic wars it is hard to see where/how such an "identity" would have come into existence in the prior generation.

Seeing as how "Palestine" Israel did not exist as a separate entity until after the Ottoman Empire was carved up following the end of WWI--18 years into the 20th century it is hard to see where/how such an "identity" would have come into existence in the prior generation.

See dumbass, it is hard to win at this game. I can go on and on. Identity does not necessarily coincide with political boundaries. You're going to destroy a lot of identities by your logic. When bigotry trumps clear thinking, you usually just look like a fool.

537 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:21:41am
538 LAobserver  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 12:48:25pm

re: #537 buzzsawmonkey


You still have not managed to suggest anything which might possibly be a component of a distinct "Palestinian culture." They don't have a distinct language which separates them from the surrounding Arabs, as the Irish have Gaelic, the Jews Hebrew, and the Germans, German; all the Arabs in the region speak Arabic. They don't have a distinct ethnicity, as the Irish (Celtic), the Jews, and (arguably) the Germans do; they have no history of physical separation or political distinction, as can be claimed for the Irish (island nation), the Jews (separated legally and often physically from the surrounding cultures until the mid-19th century), or the Germans (distinct principalities within the Holy Roman Empire, and within the later Austro-Hungarian Empire).

I am guessing that this is too nuanced for you, but it doesn't take long to find examples of Palestinian culture, heck, do a Google search if that is not too hard for you. You'll find distinctive cultural traditions - in terms of dress, food, and language, among others. These traditions are similar to others in the Arab world - as would be expected, just like Dutch culture is similar to Belgian - but I don't suppose you are going to tell them that they don't have a culture (their languages are remarkably similar you know, at least Flemmish and Dutch and they are are not physically separated). In fact, I guess you won't claim that America has no culture because it doesn't have its own language, you probably also won't claim that, again, Germany has no culture because German is the principle language of at least two other European countries and is widely spoken elsewhere. Let's see, who else?... I guess there is no culture in Latin America either...poor people no distinct language, not on an island, and I bet you can't tell them apart from each other, so let's throw everybody from Mexico to Argentina in the same "no culture" category.

I guess you win - I am trying to think of who does have a culture...? Hmm....Irish! Oh no, sorry, Gaelic is related to other Gaelic tongues in Scotland and Britanney and the people are genetically similar to Andorrans. I've got it, Jews! Oh wait, damn, they share genetic similarities to Palestinians, if they existed, but they don't, so this is really confusing. And some Jews call themselves American and some Israelis and some neither! Do American Jews not have distinctive culture if they don't speak Hebrew, because they don't have a state? Man, this is confusing! I thought American Jews had a culture. I'm glad I'm not the one in charge of declaring who does and does not have a distinct culture. Sounds hard! It's a good thing only an idiot or a bigot would try to declare who does and does not have a culture! And we know that neither one of us could be an idiot or a bigot.

539 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 3:06:28pm

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