You can't No True Scotsman your way out of this one, folks.

So charge her with conspiracy to commit murder.

What did they know and when did they know it? I see lots on investigations coming out of this.

What about charging the organization too?

This case is looking more and more RICO-riffic.

This adviser needs to be arrested, prosecuted, and incarcerated. She needs to learn that civil and secular authority operates here. The Rule of Law is for everyone, even the fanatics.

/But there is no connection. Nothing to see here folks. Just move along please.

Man, I sure hope this allows the authorities to wrap up a decent chunk of OR. It certainly is sounding like it might.

Waiting to see if any of the dots connect back to head asshole Terry.

Let's see:

1) Anti-abortion picketer thought him a fanatic;
2) Involved in the Freemen and an unorganized militia group in the 90's
3) Even his militia buddies thought he was fanatical;
4) Contacting a convicted conspirator in a clinic bombing case to learn about court dates for an identified target of violence

Nope, no dots to connect. None at all.

re: #4 Macker

What about charging the organization too?

I think that may happen, but it's a ways off. They'd need to prove quite a lot - and document it six ways from Sunday - before they could do so.

It's going to be a nasty shock to a lot of people.

Maybe it will make them take a step back and think about what they've been doing and how.

re: #4 Macker

What about charging the organization too?

re: #5 doppelganglander

This case is looking more and more RICO-riffic.

You two just answered each other. Although it's sounding like it won't even be necessary to invoke RICO to get a decent conspiracy charge to stand.

re: #5 doppelganglander

This case is looking more and more RICO-riffic.

Definately more than reasonable cause to investigate a possible conspiracy or criminal negligence

re: #4 Macker

What about charging the organization too?

Investigate every individual. Then arrest, prosecute, and incarcerate any implicated and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Religious fanaticism is subject to civil and secular authority as well as G-d's.

re: #8 SixDegrees

Man, I sure hope this allows the authorities to wrap up a decent chunk of OR. It certainly is sounding like it might.

Waiting to see if any of the dots connect back to head asshole Terry.

Remember, Op. Resc. kicked Randall Terry out.

When even the radicals think you're loony, it's time to seek professional help.

His brother said he's suffered from mental illness. Will the defense try to go for an insanity?

re: #15 MandyManners

His brother said he's suffered from mental illness. Will the defense try to go for an insanity plea?

re: #15 MandyManners

His brother said he's suffered from mental illness. Will the defense try to go for an insanity?

That's probably their only hope. The question is whether Roeder would cooperate with an insanity defense.

re: #9 Guanxi88

I agree. But you can bet law enforcement is going to document every possible connection before they make any public statement.

re: #10 Dianna

I think that may happen, but it's a ways off. They'd need to prove quite a lot - and document it six ways from Sunday - before they could do so.

It's going to be a nasty shock to a lot of people.

Maybe it will make them take a step back and think about what they've been doing and how.

Quite correct. I'm content to wait patiently while an airtight case gets built around the highest levels of OR possible.

Terry's instant apologia is looking more than a bit suspect at the moment. Keeping fingers crossed that there's evidence to back up that appearance.

I'd be pulling everyone's cell phone records.

re: #14 Dianna

Remember, Op. Resc. kicked Randall Terry out.

When even the radicals think you're loony, it's time to seek professional help.

They're still affiliated, to my understanding. Their public "separation" is akin to Sinn Fein's "independence" from the IRA.

re: #15 MandyManners

His brother said he's suffered from mental illness. Will the defense try to go for an insanity?

I don't know if it would stick; he would have to be determined not to know the difference between right and wrong, not just have a skewed view.

re: #16 MandyManners

Maybe they'll use he Chewbacca defense.

re: #17 doppelganglander

That's probably their only hope. The question is whether Roeder would cooperate with an insanity defense.

His ego probably wouln't let him.

re: #24 MandyManners

His ego probably wouln't let him.

/What do waffles have to do with it?

re: #21 SixDegrees

They're still affiliated, to my understanding. Their public "separation" is akin to Sinn Fein's "independence" from the IRA.

I tend to agree. But that public repudiation is an interesting data point.

Put this in the "being cautious" column.

re: #22 Dianna

I don't know if it would stick; he would have to be determined not to know the difference between right and wrong, not just have a skewed view.

Wouldn't his fleeing be an indication that he knew the difference?

re: #20 MandyManners

I'd be pulling everyone's cell phone records.

Investigate legally, prosecute the implicated, incarcerate those found guilty by a jury of their peers.

re: #23 Mad Al-Jaffee

Maybe they'll use he Chewbacca defense.

HA!

re: #23 Mad Al-Jaffee

Maybe they'll use he Chewbacca defense.

Being hairy all over never worked for me.

re: #28 MandyManners

Wouldn't his fleeing be an indication that he knew the difference?

No clue. None. You and I think so; but what would a lawyer make out of it?

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

Investigate legally, prosecute the implicated, incarcerate those found guilty by a jury of their peers.

That is exactly the right process.

re: #32 Dianna

No clue. None. You and I think so; but what would a lawyer make out of it?

A fat retainer?

re: #17 doppelganglander

That's probably their only hope. The question is whether Roeder would cooperate with an insanity defense.

I'm certain he wants to get on the stand and use it as a podium to spread his filth. Any half-awake attorney will be duct-taping his mouth shut and his body to a chair to prevent that from happening.

And given his apparent long-term mouthing off about his views on the topic, insanity will be a real tough nut. His prior acts and utterances make it very clear he was fully aware of the consequences of such actions, and indeed was counting on such consequences to achieve his ends.

Sadly, this guy seems like a weak-willed tool who was, like so many others, exploited by OR and similar groups to carry out their dirty work. Not to excuse him, but there are other fish that need to be fried over this, along with him.

re: #24 MandyManners

His ego probably wouln't let him.

And if he is as religiously committed as the media is making him out of be, being a martyr would be a step up for him. Suffering for his religion.

re: #33 Dianna

That is exactly the right process.

Wouldn't a fatwa be so much easier though?

/

re: #27 Dianna

I tend to agree. But that public repudiation is an interesting data point.

Put this in the "being cautious" column.

Fair enough. Like MandyManners asks, it would be extremely interesting to obtain phone records for some of the OR higher-ups over the last few weeks and months.

re: #35 SixDegrees

I'm certain he wants to get on the stand and use it as a podium to spread his filth. Any half-awake attorney will be duct-taping his mouth shut and his body to a chair to prevent that from happening.

And given his apparent long-term mouthing off about his views on the topic, insanity will be a real tough nut. His prior acts and utterances make it very clear he was fully aware of the consequences of such actions, and indeed was counting on such consequences to achieve his ends.

Sadly, this guy seems like a weak-willed tool who was, like so many others, exploited by OR and similar groups to carry out their dirty work. Not to excuse him, but there are other fish that need to be fried over this, along with him.

Good analysis. Are you a lawyer?

re: #5 doppelganglander

This case is looking more and more RICO-riffic.

Indeed.

Can she be considered an accessory to murder, or a co-conspirator?

re: #39 doppelganglander

Good analysis. Are you a lawyer?

Not even close, but I spent a lot of time around them in a former life.

re: #34 FurryOldGuyJeans

A fat retainer?

Not likely - unless Roeder isn't indigent?

re: #41 Rancher

Can she be considered an accessory to murder, or a co-conspirator?

Depends on the frequency and timing of the contacts, I'd imagine. Without intercepts, though, she could say she was passing along public information to an activist.

re: #43 Dianna

Not likely - unless Roeder isn't indigent?

I daresay there'll be tons of dough pouring in for a legal defense fund.

re: #35 SixDegrees

I'm certain he wants to get on the stand and use it as a podium to spread his filth. Any half-awake attorney will be duct-taping his mouth shut and his body to a chair to prevent that from happening.

And given his apparent long-term mouthing off about his views on the topic, insanity will be a real tough nut. His prior acts and utterances make it very clear he was fully aware of the consequences of such actions, and indeed was counting on such consequences to achieve his ends.

Sadly, this guy seems like a weak-willed tool who was, like so many others, exploited by OR and similar groups to carry out their dirty work. Not to excuse him, but there are other fish that need to be fried over this, along with him.

If he is a weak-willed tool he'll probably spill the beans and take a deal.

re: #43 Dianna

Not likely - unless Roeder isn't indigent?

What little I have read of the situation the man seems to be well funded, if not lavishly even by American standards.

re: #41 Rancher

Can she be considered an accessory to murder, or a co-conspirator?

They'll need more than was discussed in that article, I think.

re: #32 Dianna

No clue. None. You and I think so; but what would a lawyer make out of it?

I'm gonna' check out the McNaghten [sic] rules.

re: #41 Rancher

Can she be considered an accessory to murder, or a co-conspirator?

Probably not solely on the evidence mentioned here. Yakking it up to coordinate "protests" at his public court appearances by itself isn't criminal, and that's surely the explanation that will be offered if there isn't any more evidence than this.

It's more than enough, however, to both widen and deepen the investigation. I fully expect that a lot of uncomfortable questions are being asked of several people right now.

re: #41 Rancher

Depends on what she knows, did, and I expect investigators will likely pursue an angle so as to get at that very question. Given her dedication to this particular cause, they may play up the vanity (not sure if that's the right word) aspect and get her to expound on her involvement in Roeder's life and actions over the past couple of years. She might boast of her encounters and think nothing of implicating herself - because she considers herself a true believer in the cause.

It's that kind of thinking that might sink the whole Operation Rescue enterprise, particularly if enough people start talking - to cop deals or to pin the blame on others.

re: #44 Guanxi88

Without intercepts, though, she could say she was passing along public information to an activist.

If I give gasoline to a known arsonist does it matter whether the gas was legal? Bad example but you get my drift right?

re: #45 Guanxi88

I daresay there'll be tons of dough pouring in for a legal defense fund.

That is frightening, but probable. If he has any sense, he'd refuse any such thing, though.

re: #45 Guanxi88

I daresay there'll be tons of dough pouring in for a legal defense fund.

And a few high profile lawyers ponying up to capitalize on that fund, while publicly emoting on how even Roeder deserves a good defense.

re: #48 Dianna

You are correct. I wonder if Cheryl Sullenger had more knowledge of what Scott Roeder was up to that she is admitting.

re: #52 Rancher

If I give gasoline to a known arsonist does it matter whether the gas was legal? Bad example but you get my drift right?

Under the law, giving him gasoline alone wouldn't be enough to convict you. If he'd expressed his intent to use this fuel for a criminal purpose, though...

re: #47 FurryOldGuyJeans

What little I have read of the situation the man seems to be well funded, if not lavishly even by American standards.

I'm confused - I don't remember reading that he was employed?

re: #1 thedopefishlives

You can't No True Scotsman your way out of this one, folks.

Oh yes they will. Give them a chance. If this thread goes on long enough, it will happen.

re: #55 Lawrence Schmerel

Probably.

re: #54 FurryOldGuyJeans

And a few high profile lawyers ponying up to capitalize on that fund, while publicly emoting on how even Roeder deserves a good defense.

He does. That is one of the frustrating things that separates us from the savages.

re: #55 Lawrence Schmerel

You are correct. I wonder if Cheryl Sullenger had more knowledge of what Scott Roeder was up to that she is admitting.

We all wonder - the question is if it can be proven.

Does the state this happened in have a death penalty? If so this could get really ironic.

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Probably.

And you have evidence to that point?

re: #46 KenJen

If he is a weak-willed tool he'll probably spill the beans and take a deal.

I'm guessing not. He's also a zealot, and will want to take the stand and turn it into a public forum for his views.

But I don't think he'll be smart enough to provide much cover for any co-conspirators if evidence of cooperation turns up.

re: #54 FurryOldGuyJeans

And a few high profile lawyers ponying up to capitalize on that fund, while publicly emoting on how even Roeder deserves a good defense.

Last time I looked, I believe he does. What do you think?

re: #10 Dianna

re: #23 Mad Al-Jaffee

Maybe they'll use he Chewbacca defense.

Doesn't that have something to do with Twinkies?

re: #60 Creeping Eruption

He does. That is one of the frustrating things that separates us from the savages.

I don't find it frustrating. I find it something to take pride in. The Rule of Law prevails.

re: #62 Rancher

Does the state this happened in have a death penalty? If so this could get really ironic.

Why Kansas D.D can't seek the death penalty in Tiller case

re: #67 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't find it frustrating. I find it something to take pride in. The Rule of Law prevails.

Right, I agree.

re: #52 Rancher

If I give gasoline to a known arsonist does it matter whether the gas was legal? Bad example but you get my drift right?

I'd hate to see someone convicted on that alone, Rancher. Really.

I'm suspicious as you are, but I want law enforcement to be meticulous about evidence.

re: #67 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't find it frustrating. I find it something to take pride in. The Rule of Law prevails.

I agree, but open and shut cases frustrate me.

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Last time I looked, I believe he does. What do you think?

I never said he didn't. The lawyers trying to loot the defense fund will say it to obscure what they are doing.

Dont know about you guys but I dont usually tape a phone number that I call every few months to my dashboard.

These extremists are ALL connected. In my own town, antiabortion "Reverend" John Burt showed out-of-town antiabortion firebomber John Brokhoeft where a local clinic was, and 'counseled' Michael Griffin right before he shot down Dr. Gunn. Joan Andrews was brought in to gain access to a local clinic by falsely claiming to be pregnant and seeking an abortion, and once inside she vandalized medical equipment, something that radical antiabortionists paid her trnasportation expenses to do to clinics in 120 different cities nationwide in the span of two years. Local antiaborton double shotgun murderer Paul Hill, who killed Dr. Britton and a clinic escort, was tied in with Michael Bray (who wrote A Time To Kill, a book purporting to make the Biblical case for antiabortion assassination) and the Army of God. Former Catholic priest Joseph Scheidler (Who wrote Closed: 99 Ways to Stop Abortion, a clinic sabotage manual) of Chicago's Pro-Life Action Network (which announced on their newsline any news in the nation regarding antiabortion protests, firebombings, assassinations and arrests) and Randall Terry came down to stage protests.

And it goes on and on and on...

re: #68 Creeping Eruption

Why Kansas D.D can't seek the death penalty in Tiller case

PIMF: D.A.

re: #41 Rancher

Can she be considered an accessory to murder, or a co-conspirator?

She could be, but I'll bet it was common knowledge where and when Tiller went to church. If he'd been killed going in or out of the courthouse, it would be more definite.

re: #72 FurryOldGuyJeans

I never said he didn't. The lawyers trying to loot the defense fund will say it to obscure what they are doing.

Obscure what they are doing? You mean defending him? Really, I'm not trying to argue, I just don't understand what you mean.

Obscure what?

re: #62 Rancher

Does the state this happened in have a death penalty? If so this could get really ironic.

Yes, but it probably can't be applied in this case.

re: #71 Creeping Eruption

I agree, but open and shut cases frustrate me.

I am not frustrated. That the system worked to show the person's guilt beyond the shadow of a doubt to a jury of one's peers should not be a source of frustration to anyone, except the perpetrator.

re: #38 SixDegrees

Fair enough. Like MandyManners asks, it would be extremely interesting to obtain phone records for some of the OR higher-ups over the last few weeks and months.

Occasional Reader has hired me to ask people to be more specific than writing OR. OK?

re: #73 KenJen

Dont know about you guys but I dont usually tape a phone number that I call every few months to my dashboard.

You would if you didn;t commit the number to memory and I planned on dialing it that day!

(one number that I call only every few months would NOT be committed to memory)

re: #55 Lawrence Schmerel

You are correct. I wonder if Cheryl Sullenger had more knowledge of what Scott Roeder was up to that she is admitting.

Who knows, she could have been just encouraging him to it, and stroking his ego. That might be enough, but I'm no lawyer, so, I don't know.

re: #24 MandyManners

His ego probably wouln't let him.

That's my first thought too. Have you seen his mug shot? He looks both angry and proud.

re: #75 Creeping Eruption

PIMF: D.A.

Killing as part of a contract or an agreement. I wonder if this guys associations with any of various groups could be construed as an agreement?

re: #83 KansasMom

That's my first thought too. Have you seen his mug shot? He looks both angry and proud.

I doubt he'd accept the insanity defense. I think he wants the martyr points.

re: #77 Walter L. Newton

Obscure what they are doing? You mean defending him? Really, I'm not trying to argue, I just don't understand what you mean.

Obscure what?

That they're making money, I think.

re: #84 Nevergiveup

Killing as part of a contract or an agreement. I wonder if this guys associations with any of various groups could be construed as an agreement?

Sedgewick County District Attorney Nola Foulston must not have thought so. Roeder has been charged with one count of first-degree murder in Tiller's death and two counts of aggravated assault for threatening and brandishing a gun at two members of Tiller's church who confronted him after the shooting.

re: #83 KansasMom

That's my first thought too. Have you seen his mug shot? He looks both angry and proud.

Looks like the expression from any number of soon-to-be martyr photos and videos.

re: #81 sattv4u2

You would if you didn;t commit the number to memory and I planned on dialing it that day!

(one number that I call only every few months would NOT be committed to memory)

That's kinda my point. I wonder if he was able to place any calls before his arrest.

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Last time I looked, I believe he does. What do you think?

He has the right to an attorney. If he can't afford an attorney, we will provide him with the dumbest fucking lawyer on Earth.

re: #83 KansasMom

That's my first thought too. Have you seen his mug shot? He looks both angry and proud.

He actually looks like he just learned to walk upright last week. Still fascinated by shiny objects.

re: #81 sattv4u2

You would if you didn;t commit the number to memory and I planned on dialing it that day!

(one number that I call only every few months would NOT be committed to memory)

Why wouldn't you put it in your cell phone's memory?

re: #87 Creeping Eruption

Sedgewick County District Attorney Nola Foulston must not have thought so. Roeder has been charged with one count of first-degree murder in Tiller's death and two counts of aggravated assault for threatening and brandishing a gun at two members of Tiller's church who confronted him after the shooting.

They can always add and/ or delete charges as the investigation continues

re: #86 Dianna

That they're making money, I think.

That's a secret?

re: #70 Dianna

I'd hate to see someone convicted on that alone, Rancher. Really.

I'm suspicious as you are, but I want law enforcement to be meticulous about evidence.

Yea, I agree there has to be more.

re: #92 Dianna

Why wouldn't you put it in your cell phone's memory?

See Walter's #91.

re: #62 Rancher

Does the state this happened in have a death penalty? If so this could get really ironic.

Yes Kansas does, but as people have stated before me this doesn't fit the requirements for it. But personally I don't see the irony.

re: #92 Dianna

Why wouldn't you put it in your cell phone's memory?

I only put frequently utilized numbers into mine

re: #85 Ward Cleaver

I doubt he'd accept the insanity defense. I think he wants the martyr points.

Since Kansas isn't seeking the Death Penalty, so where would this guy fit in the Prison inmate hierarchy? He didn't abuse any kids, AFAIK.

re: #84 Nevergiveup

Killing as part of a contract or an agreement. I wonder if this guys associations with any of various groups could be construed as an agreement?

It would require a great deal more proof than we've seen so far. Just being part of those groups wouldn't be enough.

re: #90 Rancher

He has the right to an attorney. If he can't afford an attorney, we will provide him with the dumbest fucking lawyer on Earth.

Some of the smartest lawyers I know became public defenders. Want a professional challenge as a lawyer ? Thats the job for you.

re: #92 Dianna

Why wouldn't you put it in your cell phone's memory?

So the cops wouldn't find it in your cell phone. This may had been his concern in the pst, so he didn't have it in his cell phone. I don't think he was trying to get caught, so the sticky on his dash was a quick and easy way to bring the number along with himself.

re: #94 Walter L. Newton

That's a secret?

I've never quite understood, but when it's a particularly ugly situation, lawyers retreat into high-flown rhetoric. They never say, "There's money on the table, folks, and I'm going to get it!"

re: #98 sattv4u2

I only put frequently utilized numbers into mine

That is why the investigators need to get cell company records. Let's just hope they didn't have the tactical wherewithal to think of using throw-away cell phones.

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

So the cops wouldn't find it in your cell phone. This may had been his concern in the pst, so he didn't have it in his cell phone. I don't think he was trying to get caught, so the sticky on his dash was a quick and easy way to bring the number along with himself.

Or you just haven't figured out how to do it.

re: #68 Creeping Eruption

Why Kansas D.D can't seek the death penalty in Tiller case

"-- Killing as part of a contract or an agreement"

Let the investigation continue...

re: #104 FurryOldGuyJeans

That is why the investigators need to get cell company records. Let's just hope they didn't have the tactical wherewithal to think of using throw-away cell phones.

Now you've done it!

re: #103 Dianna

I've never quite understood, but when it's a particularly ugly situation, lawyers retreat into high-flown rhetoric. They never say, "There's money on the table, folks, and I'm going to get it!"

Ok, seems like a shallow concern, since even a 3 year old knows that lawyers make money. Lots of money.

re: #103 Dianna

I've never quite understood, but when it's a particularly ugly situation, lawyers retreat into high-flown rhetoric. They never say, "There's money on the table, folks, and I'm going to get it!"

Ever hear a doctor say that? What about a construction worker? Why is it that lawyers are "greedy" because they make a living like everyone else? This is America. Are they supposed to work for free?

re: #98 sattv4u2

I only put frequently utilized numbers into mine

The number would still be in the phone's log. Heck, my log goes back to the day I got the phone.

re: #108 Walter L. Newton

Ok, seems like a shallow concern, since even a 3 year old knows that lawyers make money. Lots of money.

Don't let REALWEST see that !

///

re: #108 Walter L. Newton

Ok, seems like a shallow concern, since even a 3 year old knows that lawyers make money. Lots of money.

It all works out nicely when they give it to politicians.

re: #103 Dianna

I've never quite understood, but when it's a particularly ugly situation, lawyers retreat into high-flown rhetoric. They never say, "There's money on the table, folks, and I'm going to get it!"

If a lawyer were to say that instead of the media-packageable sound bites they usually utter, I wouldn't have said what I did earlier. Hiding their true intent of getting the cash by mouthing the rhetoric.

re: #109 Creeping Eruption

Ever hear a doctor say that? What about a construction worker? Why is it that lawyers are "greedy" because they make a living like everyone else? This is America. Are they supposed to work for free?

Not my point. The retreat into high-flown rhetoric was my point. Not that it's bad to make money; frankly, I'd just once like to hear a lawyer say that in a high-profile case.

After all, they're worth the price, aren't they?

Attorneys have to eat, too.

re: #114 Dianna

Not my point. The retreat into high-flown rhetoric was my point. Not that it's bad to make money; frankly, I'd just once like to hear a lawyer say that in a high-profile case.

After all, they're worth the price, aren't they?

I guess I am just not following you. I don't get the "high-flown rhetoric" part.

But then since this is such a high-profile case I would bet good money some lawyers are going to try to take the case just to get the national exposure for later cases.

re: #110 Dianna

The number would still be in the phone's log. Heck, my log goes back to the day I got the phone.

True, but the question was why not put it into the memory

As far as call log, I empty mine weekly. Now, I have NO idea if those stay on some sort of permanant "hard drive" like a computers would, but I DO know the cell provider would have a log of EVERY call (in or out) on that SIM card

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

So the cops wouldn't find it in your cell phone. This may had been his concern in the pst, so he didn't have it in his cell phone. I don't think he was trying to get caught, so the sticky on his dash was a quick and easy way to bring the number along with himself.

Um. Did I already mention the call log on your phone? I'm conducting a couple conversations here, and I'm working at the same time, so I may have gotten lost.

re: #115 MandyManners

Attorneys have to eat, too.

Attorneys I don't have a problem with, lawyers like those in Congress or Edwards-like shysters I do.

re: #117 FurryOldGuyJeans

But then since this is such a high-profile case I would bet good money some lawyers are going to try to take the case just to get the national exposure for later cases.

No different than an archetect gunning for a high profile building or a team of surgeons gunning for the high profile transplant, etc. It is always about getting bigger and better clients and more money - in every profession.

re: #116 Creeping Eruption

I guess I am just not following you. I don't get the "high-flown rhetoric" part.

Then never mind.

re: #99 Macker

Since Kansas isn't seeking the Death Penalty, so where would this guy fit in the Prison inmate hierarchy? He didn't abuse any kids, AFAIK.

I would he'd be considered run-of-the-mill, but if he's that wacked out, he probably won't have any friends.

re: #107 debutaunt

Now you've done it!

Done what? Expressed my opinion?

Damn, I've got to stop doing that. I need to be a more compliant lizard by just following the group mind-think operating here.

/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?

re: #122 Dianna

Then never mind.

I don't want to pick a fight (not yet at least). I really didnt understand.

Right wing extremist watch...
Hal Turner, Talk Radio Host, Facing Charges For Inciting Violence Against Officials

Turner, who has been identified as a white supremacist and anti-Semite by several anti-racism groups, hosts an Internet radio program with an associated blog. On Tuesday, the blog included a post that promised to release the home addresses of state Rep. Michael Lawlor, state Sen. Andrew McDonald and Thomas Jones of the State Ethics Office.

"Mr. Turner's comments are above and beyond the threshold of free speech," Capitol Police Chief Michael J. Fallon said in an e-mail announcing the warrant. "He is inciting others through his website to commit acts of violence and has created fear and alarm. He should be held accountable for his conduct."

I recognize the name but don't know anything about him. Anybody know the guy?

Going back to what I've read so far - we know of his contacts with Sullenger. We know Sullenger's history, and we know this guy had, in the past, already flirted with the fringes of armed "resistance" from his involvement with a militia group and the Freemen.

Knowing what we know about Sullenger, it's a safe bet that he contacted her for a reason, and that on some level, she was happy to pass along already-public information to him, with the hope of attaining this result. She probably never had to say or do anything to suggest or recommend anything unlawful to him; it was like a chemical formula (or, to crib the title from a great film )"The Element of Crime"; all the facts and such were there, in one place at one time to allow the crime to occur. She facilitated this, but not overtly.

Reprehensible, but hard to prove legally.

re: #123 Ward Cleaver

I would he'd be considered run-of-the-mill, but if he's that wacked out, he probably won't have any friends.

I wonder if the Aryan Brotherhood will welcome him.

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Ug ,,, meet Ly

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Somebody sabotaged the security system at Tiller's clinic just a few weeks ago, which would require at least a basic knowledge of technical security. Then Roeder made the hit exactly when Tiller was most vulnerable, inside his church just after the start of services on Sunday morning. Since Tiller was shot in the head it is possible that Roeder knew Tiller was wearing a bullet-proof vest.
It appears that a fair amount of planning and stalking went into this. It's possible that a kook like Roeder could manage this by himself but it seems unlikely. As our friend Salamantis has pointed out, the anti-abortion crazies do have moles inside various state agencies and a great ability to collect confidential information on potential targets.
Whether Roeder just lucked out or planned it by himself or had help remains to be seen but you can bet your last dollar the authorities are looking at it.

re: #127 Guanxi88

"Reprehensible, but hard to prove legally."

yup.

re: #125 Creeping Eruption

I don't want to pick a fight (not yet at least). I really didnt understand.

I was pointing out that lawyers (quite sensibly) do not - when defending a murderer of any stripe - advertise that they are doing it for money.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that in my view. If they are very high priced, there is a reason for that - they're good.

This is not to be taken as a condemnation of making money, or of lawyers.

re: #127 Guanxi88

I would prefer the authorities try to the best of their ability to legally prove a connection to take before a jury. If nothing turns up, some other connection is bound to be uncovered.

re: #126 Killgore Trout

re: #129 sattv4u2

Ug ,,, meet Ly

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

He used to call both Hannity and Bob Grant and both would debate his views, but when he got more extreme with them both wouldn't take his calls anymore

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Right wing extremist watch...
Hal Turner, Talk Radio Host, Facing Charges For Inciting Violence Against Officials

I recognize the name but don't know anything about him. Anybody know the guy?

His Wiki.

Turner promotes antisemitism (including the rounding up and killing of Jews)[1] and opposes the existence of the state of Israel.[2] He also denies the Holocaust.[3] In 2005, Turner organized what he billed as a "rally against violence" after a white student was beaten by a black student at a high school. In 2006, he got into a fight with Jaime Vazquez, a former Jersey City deputy mayor, after Vazquez called him a "racist coward". Turner has made numerous threats against political figures on his website and in other forums.

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Sorry - I don't think I even know his name.

re: #128 MandyManners

I wonder if the Aryan Brotherhood will welcome him.

Possibly, if he was militia, but he may just be straight anti-government type, and not white supremacist. I have to admit, I haven't been following the case that closely. Pretty much just what I read here.

re: #132 Dianna

I was pointing out that lawyers (quite sensibly) do not - when defending a murderer of any stripe - advertise that they are doing it for money.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that in my view. If they are very high priced, there is a reason for that - they're good.

This is not to be taken as a condemnation of making money, or of lawyers.

Quite right you are. Thanks for elucidating.

Thing about Sullenger in this case is that it is possible to organize and direct a conspiracy without actually engaging in overtly illegal acts. If there's a shared sense of purpose, one need only set things in motion and they eventually take their natural course.

re: #135 Creeping Eruption

His connections to the Freemen and other neo-Nazis make me think that he'll be okay.

re: #129 sattv4u2

Identifying himself as "Hal from North Bergen", Turner became notable in American conservative circles as a frequent caller to WABC radio talk shows hosted by Bob Grant and Sean Hannity.[4] Turner parlayed this fame into a role as the northern New Jersey coordinator for Patrick J. Buchanan's 1992 presidential campaign. He went on to serve as campaign manager for Libertarian Party candidate Murray Sabrin in New Jersey in the 1990s, including a 1997 gubernatorial campaign.[5]

Turner reportedly established a friendship with Sean Hannity, on whose program he was a frequent presence.[

Here we go...

re: #141 MandyManners

His connections to the Freemen and other neo-Nazis make me think that he'll be okay.

Just as long as he has a lifetime to find his place.

Apparently, Roeder was in touch with her as recently as the beginning of this year, when Sullenger was helping him to track Dr. Tiller’s court appearances.

Why am I not surprised?

re: #140 Guanxi88

Thing about Sullenger in this case is that it is possible to organize and direct a conspiracy without actually engaging in overtly illegal acts. If there's a shared sense of purpose, one need only set things in motion and they eventually take their natural course.

Does the name Charles Manson ring a bell? He wasn't at Sharon Tates house that night

re: #126 Killgore Trout

He's a Northern NJ creep, but I haven't seen his name before although he's gone after quite a few local politicians. He's also into Holocaust denial.

re: #145 sattv4u2

Does the name Charles Manson ring a bell? He wasn't at Sharon Tates house that night

Too bad California never recommuted his death sentence.

Is that even possible?

re: #147 FurryOldGuyJeans

Too bad California never recommuted his death sentence.

Is that even possible?

I don't think it is.

re: #142 Killgore Trout

Here we go...

Hannity at first denied knowing Turner, then said he had banned Turner from his radio station, and that he never supported Turner's views

You (purposefully?) omitted the REST of the story (with all due respect to the late great Paul Harvey

re: #145 sattv4u2

Does the name Charles Manson ring a bell? He wasn't at Sharon Tates house that night

That was my thought, that maybe she was encouraging him to do it. Murdering vicariously, as it were, since her own attempt hadn't come to fruition.

re: #139 Creeping Eruption

Quite right you are. Thanks for elucidating.

e·lu·ci·date (-ls-dt)
v. e·lu·ci·dat·ed, e·lu·ci·dat·ing, e·lu·ci·dates
v.tr.
To make clear or plain, especially by explanation; clarify.
v.intr.
To give an explanation that serves to clarify. See Synonyms at explain.
[Late Latin lcidre, lcidt- : Latin -, ex-, intensive pref.; see ex- + Latin lcidus, bright (from lcre, to shine; see leuk- in Indo-European roots).]

Throwing oil on the embers:

those folks quotes are inadmissable in court.

Telling the press that,
'Wow, 13 years ago I met him and know he believed in justifiable homocide'
or
'I saw him in court and he looked crazy'

Is easy to do once a crime has been committed but where what did these ladies do to marginalize this murderer? Anything? Probably not.

I do not think we should be convicting anyone of conspiracy until investigations are done.

You might ask why this woman would freely give out information on a trial that was public? It is more than likely OR had daily protests outside the courthouse and she was the contact for the group to call for days and times.

re: #148 Dianna

I don't think it is.

I don't think so either. One day we'll just hear that he's died in prison.

re: #124 FurryOldGuyJeans

Done what? Expressed my opinion?

Damn, I've got to stop doing that. I need to be a more compliant lizard by just following the group mind-think operating here.

/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?

That is why the investigators need to get cell company records. Let's just hope they didn't have the tactical wherewithal to think of using throw-away cell phones.

You gave them ideas about using-throw away phones!

/

Excuse me for a bit.

This topic just got to me, and I think I'm going to go walk around the block.

re: #151 midwestgak

Problem with my choice of words?

re: #145 sattv4u2

Does the name Charles Manson ring a bell? He wasn't at Sharon Tates house that night

True, he wasn't but note that it is impossible to prove a connection between Aryan Nations or the National Vanguard, for example, and overt criminal acts performed by those subscribing to their system of beliefs, corresponding or communicating with them directly, and in large measure motivated by them.

If one were of a mind to, all one need do is draw attention to the outrageous evil of "Enemy X" and then publish and promote stories of great resistance groups and acts of the past, along with practical information about how they committed their brave deeds. It would take some time, but it would happen, and, like the last snowflake falling to trigger an avalanche, it could hardly be directly or even proximally attributed to the organizer.

re: #139 Creeping Eruption

Quite right you are. Thanks for elucidating.

Most don't know the meaning of that word.

re: #61 Dianna

We all wonder - the question is IF SHE KNEW, can be proven.

re: #130 shiplord kirel

Whether Roeder just lucked out or planned it by himself or had help remains to be seen but you can bet your last dollar the authorities are looking at it.

I bet it doesn't take too much luck to gun down an unarmed guy at his church.

re: #158 midwestgak

Most don't know the meaning of that word.

and I was thanking Dianna for clarifying a comment she made . . .so?

re: #130 shiplord kirel

I didn't know he was wearing a bullet-proof vest, but I'm not surprised. Sad that he knew he needed to wear it to church.

re: #158 midwestgak

Most don't know the meaning of that word.

dictionary.com is your friend.

re: #158 midwestgak

Most don't know the meaning of that word.

I will clearly state that I know what it means.

re: #104 FurryOldGuyJeans

That is why the investigators need to get cell company records. Let's just hope they didn't have the tactical wherewithal to think of using throw-away cell phones.

If they are like me, all they need is a search warrant. my cell phone records are all over the house, every few months I try to shred them. bad neighborhood and all that.

re: #164 debutaunt

I will clearly state that I know what it means.

/But did Euclid?

re: #130 shiplord kirel

Good points. We may have a criminal conspiracy to commit murder here. Let's hope the authorities do a thorough job of investigation.

re: #165 Eowyn2

If they are like me, all they need is a search warrant. my cell phone records are all over the house, every few months I try to shred them. bad neighborhood and all that.

2 easier solutions

opt for "paperless billing" from your cell company
OR
they will send you the bill SANS call by call detail. It will just be your bill with total minutes used

re: #166 Creeping Eruption

/But did Euclid?

It did mean being lucid on a date, I think.

re: #80 debutaunt

Occasional Reader has hired me to ask people to be more specific than writing OR. OK?

Oops, my bad. Point taken.

re: #168 sattv4u2

2 easier solutions

opt for "paperless billing" from your cell company
OR
they will send you the bill SANS call by call detail. It will just be your bill with total minutes used

They can just go to your provider with a subpoena and get what they want.

re: #149 sattv4u2

I can't quote the entire article. I provided a link so you could check the context. These accusations of lies and misleading information pointless and stupid.

re: #170 SixDegrees

Oops, my bad. Point taken.

So far today, I've made $1.00.

Apparently, Roeder was in touch with her as recently as the beginning of this year, when Sullenger was helping him to track Dr. Tiller’s court appearances.

means 4-5 months without being in touch.
Is it possible we may have a "I did it for Jody(Cheryl)" case going on?

re: #165 Eowyn2

If they are like me, all they need is a search warrant. my cell phone records are all over the house, every few months I try to shred them. bad neighborhood and all that.

I personally have one of those anonymous throw-away pay as you go cell phone thingies, but that is because I don't have the money or credit to get a regular contracted one.

I just don't have anyone I call on a even infrequent basis, let alone people who call me. I only get calls from a creditor trying to track down the woman who had the phone number before as a land line.

re: #170 SixDegrees

Oops, my bad. Point taken.

How about we just use the words, "Adriana Lima"? It's shorter.

re: #161 Creeping Eruption

and I was thanking Dianna for clarifying a comment she made . . .so?

Misunderstanding on my part. Wasn't challengeing, trying to support the definition of a word.

re: #174 Eowyn2

Apparently, Roeder was in touch with her as recently as the beginning of this year, when Sullenger was helping him to track Dr. Tiller’s court appearances.

means 4-5 months without being in touch.
Is it possible we may have a "I did it for Jody(Cheryl)" case going on?

That's a wrinkle I hadn't considered, but there may be something there for an attorney to work with.

re: #80 debutaunt

Occasional Reader has hired me to ask people to be more specific than writing OR. OK?

I just hate to refer to them as Operation Rescue, because rescue is the LAST thing that they are about.

re: #172 Killgore Trout

I can't quote the entire article. I provided a link so you could check the context. These accusations of lies and misleading information pointless and stupid.

I just found it odd that you didn';t include the next phrase that exonerated Hannity. The one you had sort of indicts him as a crony of Turner

re: #168 sattv4u2

2 easier solutions

opt for "paperless billing" from your cell company
OR
they will send you the bill SANS call by call detail. It will just be your bill with total minutes used

I pay for my mom's cell phone as well and she likes to have the whole thing. How many minutes did I use talking to this or that person. I like to humor her.

re: #177 midwestgak

Misunderstanding on my part. Wasn't challengeing, trying to support the definition of a word.

Ok, Just wondering. Although tenuous at times, I thought I had a pretty good grip on the English language.

re: #174 Eowyn2

Apparently, Roeder was in touch with her as recently as the beginning of this year, when Sullenger was helping him to track Dr. Tiller’s court appearances.

means 4-5 months without being in touch.
Is it possible we may have a "I did it for Jody(Cheryl)" case going on?

I've seen pictures of both of them. Cheryl Sullenberger is no Jodie Foster. Not even close.

re: #180 sattv4u2

I just found it odd that you didn';t include the next phrase that exonerated Hannity. The one you had sort of indicts him as a crony of Turner

Tea Party! Ron Paul! Stormfront!

re: #176 Ward Cleaver

How about we just use the words, "Adriana Lima"? It's shorter.

hahahahahaahahahaa

re: #180 sattv4u2

The point is that they had a relationship. Hannity's name gets brought into this. That's what happens when you associate with unsavory characters. More info here...

Sean Hannity’s relationship with Hal Turner - Neo Nazi/White Supremacist

re: #177 midwestgak

Misunderstanding on my part. Wasn't challengeing, trying to support the definition of a word.

Twas used quite accurately. No mendacity whatsoever.

OpRes?

re: #188 MandyManners

OpRes?

But all the other blogs call it OR...

re: #16 MandyManners

His brother said he's suffered from mental illness. Will the defense try to go for an insanity plea?

They could try, but he was armed and seeking this guy out, also possibly collaborating with others--it's a long shot. And the shooter may prefer to be a jailed martyr than a crazy person.

re: #127 Guanxi88

Going back to what I've read so far - we know of his contacts with Sullenger. We know Sullenger's history, and we know this guy had, in the past, already flirted with the fringes of armed "resistance" from his involvement with a militia group and the Freemen.

Knowing what we know about Sullenger, it's a safe bet that he contacted her for a reason, and that on some level, she was happy to pass along already-public information to him, with the hope of attaining this result. She probably never had to say or do anything to suggest or recommend anything unlawful to him; it was like a chemical formula (or, to crib the title from a great film )"The Element of Crime"; all the facts and such were there, in one place at one time to allow the crime to occur. She facilitated this, but not overtly.

Reprehensible, but hard to prove legally.

Could be. And you're correct that it takes more than just a passing acquaintance to constitute conspiracy.

I'm content to wait for the investigation's results. One thing's for certain - the evidence found thus far doesn't prove much, but it definitely opens the door to a much wider and deeper investigation that might have been possible otherwise.

re: #189 KansasMom

But all the other blogs call it OR...

And if all the other blogs decided to jump off a cliff...

Actually a lot of right-wings blogs have done just that trying to justify this murderer.

re: #175 FurryOldGuyJeans

I personally have one of those anonymous throw-away pay as you go cell phone thingies, but that is because I don't have the money or credit to get a regular contracted one.

I just don't have anyone I call on a even infrequent basis, let alone people who call me. I only get calls from a creditor trying to track down the woman who had the phone number before as a land line.

I get those same calls and I've had the number for 9 years.

re: #191 SixDegrees

Could be. And you're correct that it takes more than just a passing acquaintance to constitute conspiracy.

I'm content to wait for the investigation's results. One thing's for certain - the evidence found thus far doesn't prove much, but it definitely opens the door to a much wider and deeper investigation that might have been possible otherwise.

They have said that this is going to be a long investigation. I believe it will be thorough.

re: #160 Yashmak

I bet it doesn't take too much luck to gun down an unarmed guy at his church.

It does if that is the only time, a window of a few minutes every week, when the victim is vulnerable. Tiller was an usher. If this is like most Lutheran churches, the ushers are in the lobby at the start of services, then take their seats a few minutes later: Tiller wouldn't have been entirely alone, since there are other ushers, but there was no crowd to pick him out of or wade through to reach him, fewer supporters to intervene, and fewer witnesses.

re: #183 Salamantis

I've seen pictures of both of them. Cheryl Sullenberger is no Jodie Foster. Not even close.

Beauty is in the eye of the psychotic beholder.

re: #189 KansasMom

But all the other blogs call it OR...

But do those other blogs have a regular poster sharing those initials who is offended by the association?

re: #174 Eowyn2

Apparently, Roeder was in touch with her as recently as the beginning of this year, when Sullenger was helping him to track Dr. Tiller’s court appearances.

means 4-5 months without being in touch.

No, it doesn't mean that. It means the last known contact may have been during Tiller's trial.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

re: #60 Creeping Eruption

He does. That is one of the frustrating things that separates us from the savages.

Gotta give a man a trial.

re: #194 KansasMom

They have said that this is going to be a long investigation. I believe it will be thorough.

Glad to hear it. I hope they rope in absolutely everyone involved and present airtight evidence at their trials.

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

Investigate legally, prosecute the implicated, incarcerate those found guilty by a jury of their peers.

It's going to be tough to pin a conspiracy charge on someone who gave him information on court dates. That's not illegal and he didn't murder Tiller in front of a court room. Now if they were found to have hired a PI to follow Tiller and then gave Roeder detailed information about his movements to allow Tiller to shoot him, then you've got a case.

re: #195 Shiplord Kirel

Cogent observation.

re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist

Gotta give a man a trial.

Absolutely, without a doubt.

re: #181 Eowyn2

I pay for my mom's cell phone as well and she likes to have the whole thing. How many minutes did I use talking to this or that person. I like to humor her.

Undeerstood. totally understandable (for Mom)
Hell ,, I think MY mom still has grocery reciepts from when the family went away for a weeks vaction at the beach back in 1965 to "prove" to my dad that we spent more in that week eating in than we usually do at home!

re: #185 debutaunt

hahahahahaahahahaa

He'll know who we're calling.

Hal Turner's post on the Tiller assassination...

Wichita, KS -- A serial child-murdering abortion doctor got his just reward today when he was shot dead in a Wichita, KS church.

The murderous butcher was gunned down in a righteous act which serves to defend the lives of other innocent children.

It is right an proper to protect the lives of innocent children.

The Turner Radio Network congratulates the person who did this! Let today's killing serve as a warning to all the other abortion butchers: You can be gotten to.

re: #99 Macker

Since Kansas isn't seeking the Death Penalty, so where would this guy fit in the Prison inmate hierarchy? He didn't abuse any kids, AFAIK.

I think 'nut job' is its own category.

re: #157 Guanxi88

And, if you add in the notion that the perpetrator may be delusional (or suffering from some psychosis) such links become even more tenuous.

re: #193 Eowyn2

I get those same calls and I've had the number for 9 years.

It wouldn't be so bad if the calls weren't robo-calls that invariably go to voice mail and make me waste time clearing out my inbox. One creditor was "nice enough" to be an actual person so I got the pleasure in telling them to sod off, I wasn't the person they were looking for.

re: #186 Killgore Trout

The point is that they had a relationship. Hannity's name gets brought into this. That's what happens when you associate with unsavory characters. More info here...

Sean Hannity’s relationship with Hal Turner - Neo Nazi/White Supremacist

Well as long as KOS (.” I’ve also found the story at Daily Kos as well. I) reported that Hal and Sean are BFF, thats all I need!

///

I have not followed this story in depth but I am wondering about the reaction to Tiller being gunned down in a Church. It is my understanding that an actual Church building is hallowed ground.

re: #109 Creeping Eruption

Ever hear a doctor say that? What about a construction worker? Why is it that lawyers are "greedy" because they make a living like everyone else? This is America. Are they supposed to work for free?

The English speaking world has a long-standing love affair with the law, and a long-standing hate affair with lawyers. We can't help it.

re: #201 Wendya

It's going to be tough to pin a conspiracy charge on someone who gave him information on court dates. That's not illegal and he didn't murder Tiller in front of a court room. Now if they were found to have hired a PI to follow Tiller and then gave Roeder detailed information about his movements to allow Tiller to shoot him, then you've got a case.

Very good points. The assorted people who knew Roeder cannot be charged unless they took active measures to facilitate the crime or they had definite information that would have warranted legal intervention. Morally, they probably had an obligation to give the information to law enforcement as background on a potential threat, but there is no legal charge for failing to do so.

re: #208 J.S.

And, if you add in the notion that the perpetrator may be delusional (or suffering from some psychosis) such links become even more tenuous.

And it would be precisely such a marginal figure, one likely to act, to whom a puppet-master such as the one sketched out in my scenario would make his pitch. Most receptive, most likely to act, and least likely to be tied back to him.

re: #210 sattv4u2

Well as long as KOS (.” I’ve also found the story at Daily Kos as well. I) reported that Hal and Sean are BFF, thats all I need!

///

Sean Hannity and Hal Turner had a long relationship on Hannity's radio show. Killgore Trout is right -- these are facts. I don't know why you're denying it.

GAAAHHH ,,, son and his freind need a ride to the park. May as well take the dog for a long walk as well while there

BBL

re: #209 FurryOldGuyJeans

It wouldn't be so bad if the calls weren't robo-calls that invariably go to voice mail and make me waste time clearing out my inbox. One creditor was "nice enough" to be an actual person so I got the pleasure in telling them to sod off, I wasn't the person they were looking for.

You used a fake British accent?

re: #211 Creeping Eruption

Only for Catholics and perhaps Eastern Orthodox. Same thing with their cemeteries. Not for Protestants.

There are analogies in Judaism. Temple Mount in Jerusalem is holy ground to Orthodox Jews.

re: #211 Creeping Eruption

I have not followed this story in depth but I am wondering about the reaction to Tiller being gunned down in a Church. It is my understanding that an actual Church building is hallowed ground.

I have read one group's website, Operation Save America (formerly Operation Rescue), and they say the church was apostate for allowing a known murderer to fellowship there. I wouldn't doubt this being a common belief with the fringies.

re: #211 Creeping Eruption

I have not followed this story in depth but I am wondering about the reaction to Tiller being gunned down in a Church. It is my understanding that an actual Church building is hallowed ground.

Sanctity is in the eyes of the beholder. Apparently, Roeder didn't think it was particularly sanctified.

re: #211 Creeping Eruption

I have not followed this story in depth but I am wondering about the reaction to Tiller being gunned down in a Church. It is my understanding that an actual Church building is hallowed ground.

The fanatics would respond by arguing Tiller's presence on hallowed ground either desecrated the place, because of their tolerance of his "evil", or they'd argue that any place allowing him in wasn't "really" a church.

re: #212 SanFranciscoZionist

The English speaking world has a long-standing love affair with the law, and a long-standing hate affair with lawyers. We can't help it.

I know. Its great. That is why what would have been a minor inconvenience costing a few hundred in attorneys fees had a person sought legal advice up-front from the damn greedy lawyers, invariably turns out to be a major headache costing a few hundred thousand in legal fees when that person is sued or needs to sue after the fact.

re: #215 Charles

Sean Hannity and Hal Turner had a long relationship on Hannity's radio show. Killgore trout is right -- these are facts. I don't know why you're denying it.

I'm not denying it. i was the opne that originallly pointed it out, Kilgore pasted a PART of the WIKI page showing that. I asked why he didn't post the next part that stated Hannity had since barred Turner

re: #215 Charles

Sean Hannity and Hal Turner had a long relationship on Hannity's radio show. Killgore trout is right -- these are facts. I don't know why you're denying it.

KDS. (Killgore Derangement Syndrome.)

re: #189 KansasMom

But all the other blogs call it OR...

But, we're the only one that has Occassional Reader.

re: #210 sattv4u2

Just saying...
BHO and Bill Ayers had... have.. a relationship.
Somehow that one concerns me more.

Michael Bray's letter to Scott Roeder:

[Link: www.operationsaveamerica.org...]

Scott Roeder
Sedgwick County Jail
141 West Elm
Wichita KS 67203
Dear Scott,

You have acted in righteousness and mercy. Who among those who believe the Truth can deny the obvious good use of you made by the Lord of Hosts as you sought to deliver the innocents from the knife of a baby murderer. The purposes of our Lord in bringing due justice in this world upon the head of the guilty while saving the innocent are “past finding out.” But how pleasing it is to know that He makes effective use of the deeds of those who obey Him. He is the Economist of the universe.

Regardless of your meditations on such matters or yet more lofty subjects, I am sure you are surrounded by the pressures and discomforts of the moment. You are in jail and, perhaps, shall remain there a long time unless our government comes to its senses. And that may only come by some providential and enormous national spanking - total economic collapse, civil war, invasion. Indeed, the captives may be set free by ways unfathomable.

The congregation of Reformation Lutheran Church which Tiller was serving an usher at the time of his termination was properly indicted by your actions. Tiller’s blood is on their heads for tolerating his murders and refusing to correct him (Rev. 2:20). Such a “church” is no church, but a Synagogue of Satan (Rev. 3:9).

Your corrupt prosecutor, Nola Foulston, is a fan of the deceased, having arranged to adopt a child from him - an expendable one, of course, which he spared for her at her request. She rewarded him by obstructing due prosecution of him for the 19 counts which were recently dismissed.

Please call if you if you need help and to report any foul play. We are not well off, but would gladly receive some calls from you. What is your defense situation?

We would be glad to hear how you are faring and what the procedure would be to send you some spending money at Sedgwick County Jail.

At peace in Him alone,

Michael Bray

Sal: *RETCH!*

re: #198 Charles

No, it doesn't mean that. It means the last known contact may have been during Tiller's trial.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Alas but neither does absence of evidence infer guilt

re: #224 wrenchwench

KDS. (Killgore Derangement Syndrome.)

try again. see #223. (and my posts above)

re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist

They could try, but he was armed and seeking this guy out, also possibly collaborating with others--it's a long shot. And the shooter may prefer to be a jailed martyr than a crazy person.

That's my thinking.

BBIAB

re: #217 debutaunt

You used a fake British accent?

That would be fun. Sometimes with telemarketers I pretend I don't speak English.

re: #15 MandyManners

I sincerely doubt it.

I'll bet though that the trial is going to be a circus. My guess is that he goes for a jury nullification strategy. It won't work of course but when people start uttering words like justifiable homicide you can be pretty sure they aren't going to wuss out with an insanity defense.

re: #218 quickjustice

re: #219 FurryOldGuyJeans

re: #220 SixDegrees

re: #221 Guanxi88

Thanks.

re: #215 Charles

I don't know why you're denying it.

I don't think they can help it. It's instinctive.

re: #228 Eowyn2

Alas but neither does absence of evidence infer guilt

Who said it did?

re: #224 wrenchwench

KDS. (Killgore Derangement Syndrome.)

Heh.

re: #225 MandyManners

But, we're the only one that has Occassional Reader Adriana Lima.

/hee hee

The ELCA (this church's synod) has liberal views on abortion. Including elective abortion coverage in their employees insurance. So it's possible the hard core pro-life crowd took that into consideration.

re: #232 doppelganglander

That would be fun. Sometimes with telemarketers I pretend I don't speak English.

Que?

re: #217 debutaunt

You used a fake British accent?

Nope, and the very fact that a harsh American male voice used the phrase made the person pause in their reading long enough to actually listen to what I had to say.

re: #219 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have read one group's website, Operation Save America (formerly Operation Rescue), and they say the church was apostate for allowing a known murderer to fellowship there. I wouldn't doubt this being a common belief with the fringies.

Uh - last I heard, the whole point of a church was to give sinners a place to go. There's not much point in having them at all, otherwise.

I'll give the originators of this excuse credit for being able to string words together into something that looks like a sentence. But it's a sentence lacking any sense.

re: #211 Creeping Eruption

I have not followed this story in depth but I am wondering about the reaction to Tiller being gunned down in a Church. It is my understanding that an actual Church building is hallowed ground.

The aggressor and the defender would have to recognize it as such. There are a number of Muslims in the Middle East that have given us reason to believe that a Mosque is not a place of worship, but an arms depot and strategic planner center.

ALBANY, N.Y. — A 100th birthday is a special enough occasion for a party, but a recent gathering in a fire house in an Albany suburb took on added poignancy because the honoree is the oldest surviving Medal of Honor recipient.

Retired Lt. John Finn of San Diego, who was visiting friends in the area, was honored both for his long life and his heroic acts on Dec. 7, 1941, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in the Hawaiian Islands.

[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

Happy Birthday and Smooth sailing!

re: #239 Dave the...

The ELCA (this church's synod) has liberal views on abortion. Including elective abortion coverage in their employees insurance. So it's possible the hard core pro-life crowd took that into consideration.

They've hated this church for a long time simply because they "allowed" Tiller into their congregation.

232 Doopler

That would be fun. Sometimes with telemarketers I pretend I don't speak English.

The workers at the McDonalds by my house do the same thing. They act like they only know Spanish.

re: #195 Shiplord Kirel

It does if that is the only time, a window of a few minutes every week, when the victim is vulnerable. Tiller was an usher. If this is like most Lutheran churches, the ushers are in the lobby at the start of services, then take their seats a few minutes later: Tiller wouldn't have been entirely alone, since there are other ushers, but there was no crowd to pick him out of or wade through to reach him, fewer supporters to intervene, and fewer witnesses.

Good point. What does an usher do, BTW? Hand out prayer books? The only church services I'm familiar with are Catholic, and people just kind of sit themselves down.

re: #206 Killgore Trout

I think I'm going to throw up. re: #227 Salamantis

Oh, yuck!

re: #232 doppelganglander

That would be fun. Sometimes with telemarketers I pretend I don't speak English.

"Que?"

re: #242 SixDegrees

Uh - last I heard, the whole point of a church was to give sinners a place to go. There's not much point in having them at all, otherwise.

I'll give the originators of this excuse credit for being able to string words together into something that looks like a sentence. But it's a sentence lacking any sense.

Fanaticism is not known for compassion. Intolerance is more their style.

re: #239 Dave the...

The ELCA (this church's synod) has liberal views on abortion. Including elective abortion coverage in their employees insurance. So it's possible the hard core pro-life crowd took that into consideration.

"Anyone who doesn't agree with us is apostate!"

Hmmm. Sounds a lot like a bunch of guys I know over in Afghanistan...

re: #249 debutaunt

"Que?"

Was?

re: #227 Salamantis

You are in jail and, perhaps, shall remain there a long time unless our government comes to its senses. And that may only come by some providential and enormous national spanking - total economic collapse, civil war, invasion. Indeed, the captives may be set free by ways unfathomable.

Good. Grief.
These people are not only violent and lawless, they are disloyal, traitorous, unAmerican.

re: #242 SixDegrees

Uh - last I heard, the whole point of a church was to give sinners a place to go. There's not much point in having them at all, otherwise.

I'll give the originators of this excuse credit for being able to string words together into something that looks like a sentence. But it's a sentence lacking any sense.

If they let him worship here, knowing what he did for a living, they probably didn't consider it a sin. Otherwise, somebody would have rebuked him, or asked him to not attend there.

re: #252 FurryOldGuyJeans

Was?

Shto? Nu, shto vam nada?