Video: Soldiers in the Army of God

Video • Views: 5,211

This is an HBO documentary that was part of their “America Undercover” series, and it’s highly pertinent right now with the murder of Dr. George Tiller in the news; a disturbing look at the mentality of the kinds of people who commit murder in the name of religion.

The film is titled “Soldiers in the Army of God,” and it’s posted at YouTube in 7 parts. I’ll put up the first three as embedded videos, with links to the rest.

(The Army of God is a militant anti-abortion terrorist group that’s been tied to many acts of violence against doctors and clinics; they have a website to which I won’t link because it’s incredibly vile.)

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

Part 4.
Part 5.
Part 6.
Part 7.

Jump to bottom

737 comments
1 BignJames  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:25:16pm

Not much different than islamists, IMO.

2 screaming_eagle  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:25:17pm

I thought God said murder was murder.

3 Danny  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:26:41pm

Wonder why HBO allows their documentary on YouTube.

4 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:28:21pm

Finley Peter Dunne, 100 years ago, said that a fanatic was simply someone who did what the Good Lord Himself would do, if He knew the facts of the matter.

5 jcm  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:29:50pm

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Matthew 7:23
and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness.

For a Christian to fight this in this realm, is to miss a large part of faith.

6 hopperandadropper  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:30:27pm

Let’s face it, a terrorist is a terrorist. It’s the same basic mentality no matter which particular rationalization is used.

7 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:30:29pm

We have seen wackos from both sides..so misguided and stupid…never thinking all the way round the track.

Non thinking mixed with sanctimonious condescension for anyone who does not agree.

Makes me sick.

8 screaming_eagle  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:30:55pm

So much for the parts of the Bible that say.

Thou shall not judge

and

Vengeance is my sayith the Lord

9 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:31:27pm

bust their ass…somehow…mom, pop, kids and all…
(does anyone deny this is a huge problem in terms of the Constitution?)

10 wiffersnapper  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:32:11pm

It’s not God I hate, it’s his fan club I can’t stand.

11 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:32:19pm

Bill O’Reilly just slammed Dr. Tiller again, and repeated the bogus claim that Tiller performed more than 60,000 abortions.

12 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:32:23pm

Reminds me of the “Dirty Dozen” when Telly explained why he killed women.

13 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:33:06pm

Someone earlier today posted a link to Coulter in which she said the AoG was just one man.

14 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:33:35pm

The problem with all ideas - no matter how benign they may look or seem on paper - is that they all seem to have nutcases gravitating towards them that need a Cause. If they could only go do something worthwhile or at least harmless. Like planting trees or something. Of course, within a few weeks there would be fractions and splinter groups and gun waving over which trees to plant where and whether Gaia didn’t love oak more than the maple or some other nonsense.

Morons. But scary morons with guns and a Cause. And those are the worst kind.

15 shiplord kirel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:33:59pm

re: #11 Charles

Bill O’Reilly just slammed Dr. Tiller again, and repeated the bogus claim that Tiller performed more than 60,000 abortions.

I guess he figures in for a dime, in for a dollar. He’s up to his eyeballs in it now in any case.

16 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:34:36pm

re: #13 MandyManners

Someone earlier today posted a link to Coulter in which she said the AoG was just one man.

It was Thanos.

17 wiffersnapper  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:34:51pm

Also, I love how these radical groups all take the Bible literally. I’m glad the Catholic Church and other mainstream churches (Episcopalians, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.) actually use some common sense when discussing and preaching the word.

18 IslandLibertarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:36:28pm

“….Thy will be done….lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…for THINE is the kingdom……”

/some refuse to pay attention……..

19 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:37:00pm

re: #11 Charles

Bill O’Reilly just slammed Dr. Tiller again, and repeated the bogus claim that Tiller performed more than 60,000 abortions.

* * * * *
Does the number of these medical procedures really matter to people for whom these procedures are procedures of choice?

20 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:37:00pm

Wiki:

AOG supports the Second Defensive Action Statement, as produced by the Defenders of the Defenders of Life, which reads:[3]

We the undersigned, declare the justice of taking all Godly action necessary, including the use of force, to defend innocent human life (born and unborn). We proclaim that whatever force is legitimate to defend the life of a born child is legitimate to defend the life of an unborn child.

We declare and affirm that if in fact Paul Hill did kill or wound abortionist John Britton, and accomplices James Barrett and Mrs. Barrett, his actions are morally justified if they were necessary for the purpose of defending innocent human life. Under these conditions, Paul Hill should be acquitted of all charges against him.

21 shiplord kirel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:37:21pm

If I read this correctly, Dr. Tiller’s funeral will be open to the public.

According to KAKE television, Wichita, the family’s lawyer, Dan Monnat issued a statement: “While the funeral of Dr. George Tiller will be open to the public, Dr. Tiller’s family has requested that no video or audio recording be allowed during any portion of the funeral service Saturday. The family respectfully asks that all media honor their wish to preserve the privacy of the occasion, both inside the church and in any overflow areas.”

Only the Phelper cult showed up at the candlelight vigil the other night so there is some hope the crazies will have the decency to stay away. Even so, it seems like a nightmarish security problem.

22 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:37:22pm

re: #19 alegrias

* * * * *
Does the number of these medical procedures really matter to people for whom these procedures are procedures of choice?

It’s okay to lie?!

23 dapperdave  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:37:51pm

re: #5 jcm

I would have to say JCM these people are not Christians, I don’t see the love of Christ in any of these folks, Jesus said love thy neighbor not blow them up.

24 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:38:16pm

re: #14 enoughalready

The problem with all ideas - no matter how benign they may look or seem on paper - is that they all seem to have nutcases gravitating towards them that need a Cause. If they could only go do something worthwhile or at least harmless. Like planting trees or something. Of course, within a few weeks there would be fractions and splinter groups and gun waving over which trees to plant where and whether Gaia didn’t love oak more than the maple or some other nonsense.

Morons. But scary morons with guns and a Cause. And those are the worst kind.

what do guns have to do with this fanaticism?

25 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:39:23pm

re: #11 Charles

Bill O’Reilly just slammed Dr. Tiller again, and repeated the bogus claim that Tiller performed more than 60,000 abortions.

How many abortions did Dr. Tiller perform? I’m guessing less than 60,000?

26 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:39:24pm

re: #23 dapperdave

I would have to say JCM these people are not Christians, I don’t see the love of Christ in any of these folks, Jesus said love thy neighbor not blow them up.

they ARE Christians because they say so if for no other reason

27 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:39:49pm

60,000 abortions in his life time is the words to the Washington Post

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com…]

I do not see where the Post has retracted that number.

28 BatGuano  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:40:03pm

re: #11 Charles

Hi Charles. I’ve heard 60,000 figure from other sources. It always seemed high to me. Is there an accurate figure available?

29 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:40:18pm

re: #11 Charles

Media matters has a vid at youtube with the outakes where you see he is flatly lieing.

30 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:40:48pm

re: #22 MandyManners

It’s okay to lie?!

* * * *
Mandy, I asked a different question; I don’t know how many procedures that doctor performed.

31 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:41:04pm

re: #24 albusteve

what do guns have to do with this fanaticism?

I was just pointing out that people with a Cause + weapons tend to be scarier than people with a Cause and (for example) a Zodiac to chase whaling ships. I am not saying “DOWN WITH ZE SECOND AMENDMENT”, just noting that wackjob + cause + guns = trouble.

32 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:41:09pm

re: #27 quiet man

60,000 abortions in his life time is the words to the Washington Post

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com…]

I do not see where the Post has retracted that number.

We’ve gone over and over this. Do the math. It’s simply impossible.

33 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:41:16pm

In Arabic, “Army of God” translates as “Hezbollah”.

Just sayin.

34 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:41:40pm

re: #25 rwdflynavy

How many abortions did Dr. Tiller perform? I’m guessing less than 60,000?

he said himself it was 60,000…but he lied…O’Reily must know this

35 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:42:12pm

ugh. Anti abortionist:

I hate to quote Chairman Mao but he was right: Kill one scare a thousand

36 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:42:13pm

WIll the man who killed Dr. Killer be charged as a terrorist?

Anyone know?

37 dapperdave  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:42:42pm

re: #26 albusteve

Just because someone says they’re something doesn’t mean it’s so,
Jesus said by their fruits you will know them.

38 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:43:08pm

re: #31 enoughalready

I was just pointing out that people with a Cause + weapons tend to be scarier than people with a Cause and (for example) a Zodiac to chase whaling ships. I am not saying “DOWN WITH ZE SECOND AMENDMENT”, just noting that wackjob + cause + guns = trouble.

I understand…I am a Cause with a weapon sometimes myself, but not fanatically motivated

39 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:43:09pm

OK I went and looked at their website.
Charles is right -that was vile!

40 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:43:22pm
The supreme court are criminals, they need to be tried, convicted and executed …. FORTHWITH…
41 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:43:55pm

re: #32 Charles


I have seen that argument and for some reason it is usually cut off at a certain point. Tiller has a clinic and a staff. The number the Post came up with is over 35 years of work. 200 a year is not that far fetched.

42 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:15pm

re: #38 albusteve

I understand…I am a Cause with a weapon sometimes myself, but not fanatically motivated

Hahahahaha. Thanks for that.

43 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:15pm

re: #37 dapperdave

Just because someone says they’re something doesn’t mean it’s so,
Jesus said by their fruits you will know them.

whatever…to me a spade is a spade

44 screaming_eagle  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:19pm

re: #23 dapperdave

Jesus said love thy neighbor not blow them up.

Weird how some people miss that one.

45 shiplord kirel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:22pm

re: #24 albusteve

what do guns have to do with this fanaticism?

As one Second Amendment advocate to another, let’s not kid ourselves. The same demographic that supports these terrorists also has a high percentage of gun owners and gun rights advocates. Franky, some of them are at least as crazy over guns as they are over abortion. You have only to look at their websites to see that.
Logic will help us here:
Some gun owners are anti-abortion crazies.
I am a gun owner but that does not mean that I am an anti-abortion crazy.

46 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:37pm

re: #24 albusteve

what do guns have to do with this fanaticism?

* * * *
Have you all already discussed today the shocking news that the jihadist killer of the military recruiter in Arkansas was caught by police in Tennessee in 2004 with all sorts of weapons in his car—a federal crime to carry loaded weapons including a sawed off shotgun—but the charges were dropped?

47 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:39pm

/Watching the video

Oh look, its a nice man singing a song, he looks kinda like santa.

Oh no, wait .. he’s a nutcase.

48 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:43pm

re: #36 HAL2010

WIll the man who killed Dr. Killer be charged as a terrorist?

Anyone know?

Don’t know, but I hope not. Calling him a terrorist might make him even more a martyr in the radicals’ eyes’. He committed murder.

49 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:43pm

From Thomas Sowell’s A Conflict of Visions:

Conversely, there are both secular and religious versions of individual rationality [the unconstrained vision- ed.], the religious version being one in which the Deity directly decides on individual events, from daily weather changes to deaths of individuals. Fundamentalist religion is the most pervasive vision of central planning, though many fundamentalists may oppose human central planning as a usurpation or “playing God”. This is consistent with the fundamentalist vision of an unconstrained God and a highly constrained man.

In other words- fundamentalists think man can be perfected, not by better laws from the wise (like the left often thinks) but by living by “God’s laws”. Both are very dangerous as both only require the good intentions of the perfector for the perfector to feel justified.

50 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:55pm

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

He did not say, “All authority has been given to you in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make enemies of all the nations, killing them that dont agree with you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, showing them hatred and the complete opposite of all I taught you and have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

51 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:44:57pm

re: #27 quiet man

60,000 abortions in his life time is the words to the Washington Post

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com…]

I do not see where the Post has retracted that number.

That’s the Washington TIMES (not a very reliable source IMO), not the Post.

52 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:45:39pm

Just as the Taliban uses defending Islam as their justification, these extremists use babies.

53 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:46:00pm

re: #41 quiet man

I have seen that argument and for some reason it is usually cut off at a certain point. Tiller has a clinic and a staff. The number the Post came up with is over 35 years of work. 200 a year is not that far fetched.

200 x 35 = 7000.

54 ArmyWife  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:46:07pm

hi group.

Just as I find violence in the name of being a “good” Muslim revolting, I find this stuff equally so. Neither deserve to be labeled “religious” when they are more accurately crazy.

PS I am borrowing a neighbors wireless - I hope the neighbor hasn’t been banned from LGF. I’ll have my own fios Saturday. I am in the new house though!

55 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:46:10pm

re: #48 rwdflynavy

Don’t know, but I hope not. Calling him a terrorist might make him even more a martyr in the radicals’ eyes’. He committed murder.

I really do hope that they do not sentence him to death. Making him a martyr would be a victory for these crazies.

56 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:46:46pm

2000 a year isnt that far fecthed given the way Doctors stack patients.

I cant believe the number myself…bnut I can find nothing that really challenges it very well. The Post must have got that number from somewhere.

57 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:46:57pm

re: #45 shiplord kirel

As one Second Amendment advocate to another, let’s not kid ourselves. The same demographic that supports these terrorists also has a high percentage of gun owners and gun rights advocates. Franky, some of them are at least as crazy over guns as they are over abortion. You have only to look at their websites to see that.
Logic will help us here:
Some gun owners are anti-abortion crazies.
I am a gun owner but that does not mean that I am an anti-abortion crazy.

I’m being ridiculously ideological here…it was a stupid statement

58 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:47:05pm

re: #30 alegrias

* * * *
Mandy, I asked a different question; I don’t know how many procedures that doctor performed.

To me, it was as if you were saying that they excused themselves for not telling the truth.

59 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:47:33pm

re: #41 quiet man

I have seen that argument and for some reason it is usually cut off at a certain point. Tiller has a clinic and a staff. The number the Post came up with is over 35 years of work. 200 a year is not that far fetched.

If you are talking about late term abortions, the number is way off base.

60 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:48:10pm

re: #56 quiet man

2000 a year isnt that far fecthed given the way Doctors stack patients.

I cant believe the number myself…bnut I can find nothing that really challenges it very well. The Post must have got that number from somewhere.

That is NOT the Washington Post. It’s the Washington Times — and I’ve documented at least one occasion in which they flat-out lied. They’re not a reliable source of information.

61 gruvin  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:48:27pm

The scope and scale of Islamic extremism is staggering in proportion to a wack “Christian” who kills an abortion doctor every few years. Yet the secular left, hostile to Christianity, will use incidents like this to make moral equavalent. HBO only helps them.

62 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:49:00pm

re: #54 ArmyWife

hi group.

Just as I find violence in the name of being a “good” Muslim revolting, I find this stuff equally so. Neither deserve to be labeled “religious” when they are more accurately crazy.

PS I am borrowing a neighbors wireless - I hope the neighbor hasn’t been banned from LGF. I’ll have my own fios Saturday. I am in the new house though!

Awesome..Hope the new house is awesome..Kind regards ArmyWife

63 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:49:01pm

re: #60 Charles

That is NOT the Washington Post. It’s the Washington Times — and I’ve documented at least one occasion in which they flat-out lied. They’re not a reliable source of information.

Owned by the Rev. Moon.

64 shiplord kirel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:49:06pm

re: #57 albusteve

I’m being ridiculously ideological here…it was a stupid statement

I wouldn’t go that far. It needed to be raised. We are going to be at some pains to draw the distinction in coming weeks, the gun-grabber vultures will seize on this in their usual manner.

65 dapperdave  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:49:06pm

I just think this whole is tragic, you have a guy killing babies and then he gets killed, death all the way around.

66 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:49:11pm

re: #26 albusteve

they ARE Christians because they say so if for no other reason

No they are not, but they certainly give true Christians and their faith a VERY bad name, and every excuse to have the christian faith outlawed, should the urge take a leftwing liberal government……….and oh, whaddyaknow, we have one, so the clock starts ticking.

67 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:49:23pm

re: #56 quiet man

2000 a year isnt that far fecthed given the way Doctors stack patients.

I cant believe the number myself…bnut I can find nothing that really challenges it very well. The Post must have got that number from somewhere.

forget it…it’s bullshit

68 BignJames  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:49:28pm

re: #56 quiet man

2000 a year isnt that far fecthed given the way Doctors stack patients.

I cant believe the number myself…bnut I can find nothing that really challenges it very well. The Post must have got that number from somewhere.

Out of their ass is my guess.

69 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:49:58pm

I mistyped my number, sorry.

I do not support Tiller and disliked the guy…I think his murder is terrorism by a loon…and there are other loons out there, the vast majority are not killers.

Look at the little girls in the bottom frame, wackos, maybe..probably.
potential killers for god..I just cant see it.

70 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:50:19pm

re: #11 Charles

Bill O’Reilly just slammed Dr. Tiller again, and repeated the bogus claim that Tiller performed more than 60,000 abortions.

Charles -

Bottom Line - Dr. Tiller was Murdered in any legal system I know of.

I am Pro-(Innocent)-Life - AND - Believe that Roe v. Wade is an excellent compromise, left to the states - AS IT WASN’T.

Discussion?

-S-

71 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:50:30pm

Wow. Here come the apologists.

How can you make excuses for this?

72 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:50:53pm

re: #59 Thanos
The post article said abortions over 35 years with no qualification.
All of them legal where he is at, I might add.

73 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:51:04pm

re: #66 A Kiwi Infidel

No they are not, but they certainly give true Christians and their faith a VERY bad name, and every excuse to have the christian faith outlawed, should the urge take a leftwing liberal government……….and oh, whaddyaknow, we have one, so the clock starts ticking.

you are entering the Christian definition twilight zone….explain you definition to them…and they will persecute you for allowing abortion…that’s the POINT

74 screaming_eagle  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:51:24pm

re: #71 Charles

Wow. Here come the apologists.

How can you make excuses for this?

Read your e-mail. I’m sure some will try.

75 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:51:36pm

re: #32 Charles

We’ve gone over and over this. Do the math. It’s simply impossible.

60,000 / 250 work days per year = 240 per day … not possible in one year.
stretch that over 10 years 240 / 10 = 24 per day … busy but possible
over 20 years = 12 per day … no sweat

I have no idea how long he was in business, but by the math it is perfectly reasonable he did that many abortions.

76 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:51:49pm

re: #66 A Kiwi Infidel

No they are not, but they certainly give true Christians and their faith a VERY bad name, and every excuse to have the christian faith outlawed, should the urge take a leftwing liberal government……….and oh, whaddyaknow, we have one, so the clock starts ticking.

And just because Al Qaeda are not Muslim.

See the argument?

77 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:51:55pm

re: #72 quiet man

The post article said abortions over 35 years with no qualification.
All of them legal where he is at, I might add.

Please! That is the Washington Times you’re quoting — the newspaper owned by Sun Myung Moon.

78 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:51:59pm

re: #68 BignJames
Maybe so..I doubt we will ever know the exact number. It is irrelevant anyway.

79 jcm  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:52:17pm

re: #23 dapperdave

I would have to say JCM these people are not Christians, I don’t see the love of Christ in any of these folks, Jesus said love thy neighbor not blow them up.

The believe they are Christian, acting on God’s will. A very dangerous thing….

But the fruit of the spirit is certainly lacking.

Galations 5:22, 23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control: against such things there is no law.

80 dapperdave  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:52:25pm

re: #66 A Kiwi Infidel

If I remember correctly, this Tiller fella was gunned down in his CHURCH! So I could say you have anti-abortionist going around and killing Christians, if Tiller was indeed a Christian.

81 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:52:37pm

Film 2, Rev. Bray refers to the Organization of the White Rose as a tribute to the Holocaust at Nuremberg, and that this is to stop the second Holocaust.
?!?

I am appalled that this group is using this Holocaust propaganda motive to confuse and draw parallels to their radical anti-abortion movement. This is total hypocrisy to Jews and gentiles alike. This muddled thinking and false belief that murder is justified and appropriate, and that grooming and mentoring others in this ideology for accomplishment of their heinous ideology is purely social pathology!

82 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:52:47pm

re: #75 Kenneth

35 years is the number being used by the originators..who is not O reilly.

83 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:53:20pm

re: #32 Charles

We’ve gone over and over this. Do the math. It’s simply impossible.

60,000 over 35 years comes out to, final result, 4.69 abortions per day, every day, no breaks. Add in days off, vacations, sick days, don’t wanna work days, and the number goes up per day.

84 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:53:27pm

re: #75 Kenneth

60,000 / 250 work days per year = 240 per day … not possible in one year.
stretch that over 10 years 240 / 10 = 24 per day … busy but possible
over 20 years = 12 per day … no sweat

I have no idea how long he was in business, but by the math it is perfectly reasonable he did that many abortions.

OK, go ahead and believe in nonsense if you like. The number is absurd.

85 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:53:29pm
re: #66 A Kiwi Infidel

No they are not, but they certainly give true Christians and their faith a VERY bad name, and every excuse to have the christian faith outlawed, should the urge take a leftwing liberal government……….and oh, whaddyaknow, we have one, so the clock starts ticking.

And just because Al Qaeda are not Muslim.

See the argument?
-

Correction to post: A

nd Al Qaeda are not Muslim.

Yeah.

86 Crimsonfisted  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:53:32pm

re: #75 Kenneth

60,000 / 250 work days per year = 240 per day … not possible in one year.
stretch that over 10 years 240 / 10 = 24 per day … busy but possible
over 20 years = 12 per day … no sweat

I have no idea how long he was in business, but by the math it is perfectly reasonable he did that many abortions.

Where did all the women come from? Is that statistically accurate within the Wichita area?

87 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:53:35pm

re: #82 quiet man

35 years is the number being used by the originators..who is not O reilly.

then he should fact check what he’s spewing

88 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:54:29pm

re: #61 gruvin

So people shouldn’t report on terrorism when Christians do it, is that what you are sayin?

89 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:54:35pm

re: #61 gruvin

The scope and scale of Islamic extremism is staggering in proportion to a wack “Christian” who kills an abortion doctor every few years. Yet the secular left, hostile to Christianity, will use incidents like this to make moral equavalent. HBO only helps them.

So that makes HBO’s reporting invalid? You’re not at all concerned about people calling themselves an Army of God if they’re white and speak English? The TV lies? What are you getting at?

90 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:54:46pm

Oh this is just going wrong.

So basically.

If The Army of God are not Christian, does that make Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, the Taliban etc not muslim?

91 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:54:47pm

re: #41 quiet man

I have seen that argument and for some reason it is usually cut off at a certain point. Tiller has a clinic and a staff. The number the Post came up with is over 35 years of work. 200 a year is not that far fetched.

his clinic worked for 35 years?

Ok…

60,000 / 250 work days per year = 240 per day

240 / 35 years = 6.87 abortions per day … piece of cake

Charles, would you care to reconsider your glib pronouncement that the math makes it impossible?

92 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:55:02pm

re: #61 gruvin

The scope and scale of Islamic extremism is staggering in proportion to a wack “Christian” who kills an abortion doctor every few years. Yet the secular left, hostile to Christianity, will use incidents like this to make moral equavalent. HBO only helps them.

gruvin -

Numerically, you are correct. Beyond that, what?

My question is WHY we reject our own potential progeny - Pray Tell.

We have had to IMPORT people to replace them.

Discussion?

-S-

93 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:55:08pm

re: #77 Charles

No fan of that guy, either. Maybe the number is off by half and is a lie to fool the credulous…I don’t think we will ever know now the way this kind of story gets blue smoked.

94 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:55:29pm

re: #77 Charles

How many years did he work then?

Do the math and tell us the answer…

95 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:56:20pm

re: #81 notutopia

Film 2, Rev. Bray refers to the Organization of the White Rose as a tribute to the Holocaust at Nuremberg, and that this is to stop the second Holocaust.
?!?

I am appalled that this group is using this Holocaust propaganda motive to confuse and draw parallels to their radical anti-abortion movement. This is total hypocrisy to Jews and gentiles alike. This muddled thinking and false belief that murder is justified and appropriate, and that grooming and mentoring others in this ideology for accomplishment of their heinous ideology is purely social pathology!

Everybody wants to co-opt the Holocaust.

96 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:56:47pm

re: #58 MandyManners

To me, it was as if you were saying that they excused themselves for not telling the truth.

* * * * *
I did not intend what you perceived. My question was rhetorical, not about either party at issue: merely asking people who consider these procedures “choices”, whether the NUMBER of procedures done makes any difference to them.

97 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:57:21pm

It won’t end until women respect themselves enough to not put themselves in this position. And men too, frankly.

98 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:57:47pm

re: #73 albusteve

you are entering the Christian definition twilight zone….explain you definition to them…and they will persecute you for allowing abortion…that’s the POINT


I dont agree with/allow abortion. A true Christian would plead with a non-believer in a greater argument, that all fall short of the Glory of God and the need to turn to Him for forgiveness (repent) forgiveness coming through the blood of Christ shed on the Cross. Only after a person repents and is forgiven that there should be a reflection on the work they do, if it contravenes His commands.
That is all we are called to do, even though we will weep and pray over the many and multitude atrocities that are committed daily, and yes, some even in His name.

99 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:58:25pm

re: #27 quiet man

60,000 abortions in his life time is the words to the Washington Post

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com…]

I do not see where the Post has retracted that number.

That’s not the Post, but the conservative Washington Times.

100 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:58:26pm

re: #91 Kenneth

his clinic worked for 35 years?

Ok…

60,000 / 250 work days per year = 240 per day

240 / 35 years = 6.87 abortions per day … piece of cake

Charles, would you care to reconsider your glib pronouncement that the math makes it impossible?

An abortion would have to be as easy as laser eye surgery. The guy would have to be the Dr. William Boothe of abortion, a veritable Henry Ford of pregnancy termination.

I’ve been in Boothe’s office. Somehow I doubt that there were waiting rooms full of women needing to get rid of a baby by Friday in this guy’s Kansas waiting room.

101 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:58:38pm

re: #90 HAL2010

Oh this is just going wrong.

So basically.

If The Army of God are not Christian, does that make Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, the Taliban etc not muslim?

HAL2010 -

You “Gotta” be kidding. Killing the “Infidel” is as Islamic as Hummus, Babaganoush and Chevrolet.

-S-

102 gruvin  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:58:47pm

re: #88 Thanos

No, not at all! I’m just pointing out what many will use to bolster their pathetic argument that us Christians are as dangerous, bloodthirsty, and opressive as Muslim extremists. Granted, one of us sure was, in this case. But, Christianity doesn’t preach murder as doctrine.

103 quiet man  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:58:59pm

re: #87 albusteve
I agree O reilly should be certain of his numbers..Might not be that easy a check… Tiller was a big time Democrat funder…Check anything when they are that big is slippier than a catfish in vaseline.

Look at Norman Hsu, the Clinton funding ponzi guy.

104 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:59:23pm

re: #80 dapperdave

If I remember correctly, this Tiller fella was gunned down in his CHURCH! So I could say you have anti-abortionist going around and killing Christians, if Tiller was indeed a Christian.


Dont worry, I know. Your last few words sum up my thoughts exactly “if Tiller was indeed a Christian”

Well, he’ll know now!

105 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 5:59:52pm

re: #97 Sharmuta

It won’t end until women respect themselves enough to not put themselves in this position. And men too, frankly.

Sharmuta .. do you really believe that? … that women who get pregnant don’t respect themselves and then choose abortion are not respecting themselves … I am not following you? … really what do you mean by that? …

106 IslandLibertarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:00:04pm

re: #90 HAL2010

If The Army of God are not Christian, does that make Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, the Taliban etc not muslim?

Would Jesus murder an abortion doctor?
Would Mohammad?

107 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:00:15pm

re: #75 Kenneth

60,000 / 250 work days per year = 240 per day … not possible in one year.
stretch that over 10 years 240 / 10 = 24 per day … busy but possible
over 20 years = 12 per day … no sweat

I have no idea how long he was in business, but by the math it is perfectly reasonable he did that many abortions.

* * * *
Also, there’s generally more than one physician in such practices, as there are many patients in the waiting areas.

108 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:00:22pm

re: #84 Charles

The math works. I have no idea where the number comes from. Surely the doctor’s clinic had the records. Why not ask them?

109 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:00:23pm

re: #91 Kenneth

his clinic worked for 35 years?

Ok…

60,000 / 250 work days per year = 240 per day

240 / 35 years = 6.87 abortions per day … piece of cake

Charles, would you care to reconsider your glib pronouncement that the math makes it impossible?

You’re seriously going to maintain that his clinic did 7 abortions every single day, 250 days a year, for 35 years straight?

I think I’m through discussing this one with you.

110 Racer X  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:00:47pm

Who cares if he did 60,000 abortions or 6,000 or 6.

The man did not deserve to be murdered. Period.

111 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:00:55pm

********************************************
Programming Note
********************************************
The NBA world championship begins in 1 minute
Th worlds greatest Athletes go to war in 45 seconds…
See ya at half time for my thoughts..
********************************************
Thanks Charles For letting me do this….

112 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:01:21pm

re: #98 A Kiwi Infidel

I dont agree with/allow abortion. A true Christian would plead with a non-believer in a greater argument, that all fall short of the Glory of God and the need to turn to Him for forgiveness (repent) forgiveness coming through the blood of Christ shed on the Cross. Only after a person repents and is forgiven that there should be a reflection on the work they do, if it contravenes His commands.
That is all we are called to do, even though we will weep and pray over the many and multitude atrocities that are committed daily, and yes, some even in His name.

well I hate to sound so crass, but Christians are capable of murder and they do…all the blather about what is true is bullshit…you are stretching to feel good about it…the call themselves Christians, they abide by their version of events and bibical interpretation…they also want to kill people and do once in a while…what is the truth and how do you know it when you see it?

113 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:01:28pm

re: #85 HAL2010

And just because Al Qaeda are not Muslim.

See the argument?
-

Correction to post: A

nd Al Qaeda are not Muslim.

Yeah.


What are you trying to say here, that Al Quaeda do not follow the instructions of their Koran?

114 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:01:32pm

re: #101 Dr. Shalit

What I am trying to get at is that these people do view themselves as Christian. Infact, I would bet that they view themselves as better Christians than those who do not act as themselves.

115 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:01:40pm

re: #110 Racer X

Who cares if he did 60,000 abortions or 6,000 or 6.

The man did not deserve to be murdered. Period.

Take your common sense and go home!

/

116 aRedPhishHead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:02:26pm

Freaking idiots, man.

117 dapperdave  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:02:45pm

re: #104 A Kiwi Infidel

Ya, it’s tragic all the way around.
gotta go, dinner time.

118 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:02:46pm

re: #106 IslandLibertarian

re: #113 A Kiwi Infidel

See 114

119 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:03:09pm

re: #102 gruvin

re: #88 Thanos

No, not at all! I’m just pointing out what many will use to bolster their pathetic argument that us Christians are as dangerous, bloodthirsty, and opressive as Muslim extremists. Granted, one of us sure was, in this case. But, Christianity doesn’t preach murder as doctrine.

Christians aren’t dangerous, Christian extremists are dangerous. Same thing I say about muslims.

120 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:03:28pm

re: #119 Thanos

Hear hear.

121 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:04:12pm

re: #114 HAL2010

What I am trying to get at is that these people do view themselves as Christian. Infact, I would bet that they view themselves as better Christians than those who do not act as themselves.

yes, and why not?…that’s what all religions do…they measure and they behave…then they get a tax exempt status

122 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:04:15pm

re: #95 Alouette

You’re correct. It is becoming too frequent to make comparisons of it to non-related topics!
And, I am sick and tired of the use of Hitler, and the Holocaust being used in such a over simplified and nonchalant manner, as if they were some heinous, easy target “marker” of important significance for their twisted, brainwashing rhetoric.

123 Racer X  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:05:08pm

re: #110 Racer X

Who cares if he did 60,000 abortions or 6,000 or 6.

The man did not deserve to be murdered. Period.

Ahhhhhhh!

I posted 6, then another 6, then a third 6!

We’re all doomed!

Ahhhhhhhhh!

*Runs from the room hair on fire*

124 gruvin  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:05:12pm

#89 Pawn:

HBO’s reporting is indeed valid, and yes I am concerned about AOG, or any other Christian extremist group. What I do hear, is the vast majority of Christian pro-life groups condemning this nutjob. Where is this majority of devout Muslims condemning atrocities on an infinitely larger scale on Jews, women, innocent children, and even other muslims nationwide? Chirp! Why? In Christianity, murder is WRONG, always. No so in Islam

125 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:06:00pm

re: #77 Charles

Please! That is the Washington Times you’re quoting — the newspaper owned by Sun Myung Moon.

Here is what appears to be the CDC stats on abortions, but it appears to be for the year 2000.

126 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:06:16pm

Getting caught up in the numbers deflects from the issue at hand.

Without commenting on the pro life/pro choice issues it is a matter of fact that late 3rd term abortions are rarely a medical necessity.

The current standard for abortion is legal but rare.

Dr Tiller has made profit a part of the equation and couched his greed in ethical terms.

127 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:06:38pm

re: #112 albusteve

well I hate to sound so crass, but Christians are capable of murder and they do…all the blather about what is true is bullshit…you are stretching to feel good about it…the call themselves Christians, they abide by their version of events and bibical interpretation…they also want to kill people and do once in a while…what is the truth and how do you know it when you see it?

I didnt say we werent, but through our salvation we have liberty not licence. If a person who calls themself a Christian, murders, they face the full force of the law. However, we are called to save souls, not kill people.

You wont understand it because you have inherent hatred against all that is Christian, whether true, tainted, or downright not Christian. Under your scenario we are all condemned.

128 BignJames  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:07:21pm

Ok…in pt4 the Lokey guy felt called to circumcise himself….so he did. I’m sure that’ll win some converts.

129 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:07:32pm

re: #109 Charles

I have no idea how many they did, but the math works. You said the math is impossible, but it is not. With a staff it is perfectly impossible. No swear in fact. Why hot ask them and clear this up. I don’t trust O’Reilly as a factual source. But I would trust Dr. Tiller’s clinic to report accurately.

Do you have any statistics on how many abortions a clinic can perform per day? Seven procedures would hardly be a strain on the system.

130 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:08:06pm

re: #126 researchok

Without commenting on the pro life/pro choice issues it is a matter of fact that late 3rd term abortions are rarely a medical necessity.

Do you have statistical numbers to validate this researchok?
Please post them.

131 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:08:46pm

Who cares how many abortions took place?

Dr. Tiller was murdered in an act of terrorism whilst attending his church. That pretty much settles the argument as far as I am concerned.

132 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:08:57pm

re: #100 Pawn of the Oppressor

An abortion would have to be as easy as laser eye surgery. The guy would have to be the Dr. William Boothe of abortion, a veritable Henry Ford of pregnancy termination.

I’ve been in Boothe’s office. Somehow I doubt that there were waiting rooms full of women needing to get rid of a baby by Friday in this guy’s Kansas waiting room.

* * * * *
Standard dilation & curettage abortions are pretty “easy”. Standard clinics do run “Henry Ford” assembly type operations.

Don’t know how easy the late late term “procedures” are, whether just inductions of labor by hormone injection or saline solution, or whether more intrusive, surgically speaking.

133 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:09:11pm

re: #102 gruvin

re: #88 Thanos

No, not at all! I’m just pointing out what many will use to bolster their pathetic argument that us Christians are as dangerous, bloodthirsty, and opressive as Muslim extremists. Granted, one of us sure was, in this case. But, Christianity doesn’t preach murder as doctrine.

gruvin -

The way I see it is this, Judaism and Christianity have reached levels of maturity and amity that Islam has NOT.
This leaves two questions:

1. Can Islam come to the same point, disregarding its origins.

2. Can the REST of the World Afford to Wait.

The answer to those two (2) QUESTIONS will determine the future.

-S-

134 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:09:27pm

re: #91 Kenneth

So on average, about one an hour. I don’t know how long an abortion takes to do, but that doesn’t actually seem unreasonable. I’m assuming he’d have assistants prepping and then taking care of the patient afterwards.

135 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:09:34pm

re: #100 Pawn of the Oppressor

1 procedure per hour is not very busy if you have staff for prep and recovery.

Any medical people here care to comment?

136 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:10:09pm

Kenneth: Here’s a representative year from the CDC. Kansas reports all abortions. You can see for the total state there were under a thousand near late term and late term abortions in 2005. Now you extrapolate and do the math.

You are pimping lies buddy.

137 SteveC  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:10:42pm

Although you wouldn’t think so, this has been discussed in the CHD world. A woman with a heart defect may not be able to have a baby without putting herself, the child, or both in jeopardy. A good number of my female friends who have a defect do not want a legal abortion option taken off the table, either by legislation or by violence.

138 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:10:46pm

re: #127 A Kiwi Infidel

I didnt say we werent, but through our salvation we have liberty not licence. If a person who calls themself a Christian, murders, they face the full force of the law. However, we are called to save souls, not kill people.

You wont understand it because you have inherent hatred against all that is Christian, whether true, tainted, or downright not Christian. Under your scenario we are all condemned.

wrong…under my scenario you are all Christians…good ones, bad ones or otherwise…are Islamic extremists not Islamists?…why are Christians any different?….and don’t hate Christians, that’s silly

139 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:11:02pm

I’ve said it before, but for the record, I absolutely condemn the murder of Dr. Tiller without qualification.

140 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:11:24pm

re: #126 researchok

Getting caught up in the numbers deflects from the issue at hand.

Without commenting on the pro life/pro choice issues it is a matter of fact that late 3rd term abortions are rarely a medical necessity.

The current standard for abortion is legal but rare.

Dr Tiller has made profit a part of the equation and couched his greed in ethical terms.

The laws of Kansas require that two doctors certify a medical need for late term abortions. Dr. Tiller’s enemies scoured his records for years trying to find a single case in which those laws were violated, and the worst they came up with was a case in which his second opinion was allegedly not truly “independent” — and in that case, he was acquitted of all charges by a jury trial.

141 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:11:29pm

re: #126 researchok

Getting caught up in the numbers deflects from the issue at hand.

Without commenting on the pro life/pro choice issues it is a matter of fact that late 3rd term abortions are rarely a medical necessity.

The current standard for abortion is legal but rare.

Dr Tiller has made profit a part of the equation and couched his greed in ethical terms.

I’m not sure I agree that the current standard for abortion is legal but rare. How many have there been since Roe vs. Wade? I believe conservative estimates are in the 10s of millions. Not exactly rare.

142 gruvin  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:11:43pm

re #133 Dr.:

Outstanding points!

143 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:11:56pm

re: #129 Kenneth

See above. Probably fewer than 480 late term abortions performed by Tiller in 2005. (Some of the late terms would have happened at hospitals.)

144 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:11:57pm

I would love to hang around and debate this but have to fly and get some stuff for some visitors sorted out……..

145 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:12:04pm

re: #136 Thanos

Kenneth: Here’s a representative year from the CDC. Kansas reports all abortions. You can see for the total state there were under a thousand near late term and late term abortions in 2005. Now you extrapolate and do the math.

You are pimping lies buddy.

Indeed.

146 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:12:35pm

re: #126 researchok

Getting caught up in the numbers deflects from the issue at hand.

Without commenting on the pro life/pro choice issues it is a matter of fact that late 3rd term abortions are rarely a medical necessity.

The current standard for abortion is legal but rare.

Dr Tiller has made profit a part of the equation and couched his greed in ethical terms.

* * * * *
You KNOW he charged premiums for late late late procedures, while those at 7 weeks’ gestation are relatively cheap, or “free” at taxpayer expense.

147 bcgirl  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:12:54pm

all extremism is dangerous. no one deserves to be murdered in cold blood, no one, but it happens because people are sinners, these people are dangerous because they think they are god, if they followed Christ the would know,, CHRIST does not kill, GOD says vengeance is HIS, he will do the judging in the end, people like this are just like extreme terrorists, they are imposing their will and beliefs on their fellow sinner, NO not their job , having an opinion is one thing, even speaking out but not murder or harm to ones family or possessions, just my thought, these people do not represent my christianity

148 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:13:07pm

re: #141 rwdflynavy

I’m not sure I agree that the current standard for abortion is legal but rare. How many have there been since Roe vs. Wade? I believe conservative estimates are in the 10s of millions. Not exactly rare.

Sorry, just noted you are talking late term abortions. I retract previous statement.

149 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:13:25pm

re: #106 IslandLibertarian


If The Army of God are not Christian, does that make Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, the Taliban etc not muslim?

Would Jesus murder an abortion doctor?
Would Mohammad?

Well… since you asked, according to some people, Yes, Jesus obviously intends for the Tillers of this world to be stopped by force (e.g., killed.)

Dude, that is what all this discussion here is about - there really are people in this country, self described as Christian, who believe it is their moral duty before God (Jesus, the second person of the Trinity), to stop abortion providers, at all cost.

150 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:13:28pm

These people aren’t Christian; they’re rabid, blood thirsty hatemongers who wouldn’t know God or the Kingdom of Heaven if it bit them on their putrid, stone age asses. They are shit out of luck in the Christ consciousness department, no matter what they call themselves.

151 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:13:45pm

re: #131 HAL2010

Is it really the issue of how many 3rd trimester abortions were performed?

I believe it is more the issue of how many were performed that met criteria for legal assertion that the mother’s life was is danger, or the fetus’ life was unable to be viable d/t death or deformity.

There is a medical ethics, as well as legal criteria that must be followed. So far, I see no valid PROOF that Dr. Tiller violated either of these.
Unless, someone can show the numbers that did NOT meet the criteria.

152 pegcity  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:13:48pm

re: #11 Charles

Bill O’Reilly just slammed Dr. Tiller again, and repeated the bogus claim that Tiller performed more than 60,000 abortions.

wouldn’t that take like 150 years to do?

153 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:14:10pm

re: #134 nomra

So on average, about one an hour. I don’t know how long an abortion takes to do, but that doesn’t actually seem unreasonable. I’m assuming he’d have assistants prepping and then taking care of the patient afterwards.

* * * * *
Exactly, this can be a very “efficient” & lucrative, practice.

154 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:14:42pm

re: #109 Charles

I guess it depends on the number of abortions his clinic was set up to do. I don’t what its capacity was, or whether 7 a day is too much or too little.
How are you so sure?

155 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:14:43pm

re: #136 Thanos

I am not pimping lies. I have no idea if the 60,000 figure is accurate or not. The 60,000 total includes all abortions, not just late term, does it not?

Charles said the math doesn’t work. Well, it does, easily.

Now if somebody would care to ask Dr Tiller’s clinic for the accurate data we can settle this.

156 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:14:45pm

re: #56 quiet man

2000 a year isnt that far fecthed given the way Doctors stack patients.

I cant believe the number myself…bnut I can find nothing that really challenges it very well. The Post must have got that number from somewhere.

So who really gives a shit how many abortions were performed by Dr. Tiller? It’s completely irrelevant. The guy was murdered by some creep who did it because he performed abortions. Or do you have some sort of metric in mind?

Lemmesee, hmmm:

1 - 10 abortions: drop from Christmas card list.

10 - 100 abortions: shun on street.

100 - 1000 abortions: kick out of country club.

1000+ abortions: murder.

////, needless to say

157 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:16:04pm

re: #145 Charles

I merely should you the math is perfectly correct. You tell me how many procedures Dr. Tiller did.

158 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:16:21pm

re: #130 notutopia

Without commenting on the pro life/pro choice issues it is a matter of fact that late 3rd term abortions are rarely a medical necessity.

Do you have statistical numbers to validate this researchok?
Please post them.

I’ll have to look that up- I read that recently. I’ll post the links tonight or tomorrow.

While providers say they abort mostly deformed/ill fetuses, in point of fact the procedures can usually be performed long before the late 3rd trimester.

159 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:16:44pm

Here’s a link to a search, if you page through the search you can pull up the same report for for every year since 1996, see if you can get the late term abortions for all of Kansas to add up to anything near 60k.

[Link: www.cdc.gov…]

160 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:16:45pm

re: #151 notutopia

Is it really the issue of how many 3rd trimester abortions were performed?

I believe it is more the issue of how many were performed that met criteria for legal assertion that the mother’s life was is danger, or the fetus’ life was unable to be viable d/t death or deformity.

There is a medical ethics, as well as legal criteria that must be followed. So far, I see no valid PROOF that Dr. Tiller violated either of these.
Unless, someone can show the numbers that did NOT meet the criteria.

Tiller went to court once, and was acquitted by jury.

161 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:16:52pm

re: #150 Kreuzueber Halbmond

These people aren’t Christian; they’re rabid, blood thirsty hatemongers who wouldn’t know God or the Kingdom of Heaven if it bit them on their putrid, stone age asses. They are shit out of luck in the Christ consciousness department, no matter what they call themselves.

that’s exactly the way they feel about you…I’d say Christians have an identity problem on their hands

162 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:17:06pm

re: #33 Kenneth

In Arabic, “Army of God” translates as “Hezbollah”.

Just sayin.

[hair stands up on back of neck]

163 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:17:31pm

re: #135 Kenneth

Actual OR prep, then Cervical dilation, and vacuum suctioning of manipulated tissue/s and the fetus, and a curretage of the uterus takes approximately (average O.R. time) 45 minutes.

164 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:18:12pm

re: #156 Alberta Oil Peon

So who really gives a shit how many abortions were performed by Dr. Tiller? It’s completely irrelevant. The guy was murdered by some creep who did it because he performed abortions. Or do you have some sort of metric in mind?

The only reason the number matters is because it was used by the anti-abortion movement to drum up an insane amount of hatred for Dr. Tiller. So much hatred that he was almost killed once before, and then successfully murdered last weekend.

165 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:18:16pm

re: #160 HAL2010

Tiller went to court once, and was acquitted by jury.

* * * *
So did O.J. Simpson.

166 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:18:37pm

re: #154 nomra

Why don’t you read the CDC report links posted above? Your claim and your numbers are totally bogus, and insidious lies.

167 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:19:10pm

re: #164 Charles

The only reason the number matters is because it was used by the anti-abortion movement to drum up an insane amount of hatred for Dr. Tiller. So much hatred that he was almost killed once before, and then successfully murdered last weekend.

and O’Reily is helping carry the water

168 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:19:41pm

re: #163 notutopia

Actual OR prep, then Cervical dilation, and vacuum suctioning of manipulated tissue/s and the fetus, and a curretage of the uterus takes approximately (average O.R. time) 45 minutes.

* * * * *
That’s my recollection.

169 SteveC  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:19:45pm

re: #166 Thanos

Why don’t you read the CDC report links posted above? Your claim and your numbers are totally bogus, and insidious lies.

Their mind is made up, do not confuse them with the facts!

170 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:19:56pm

re: #160 HAL2010
Tiller went to court once, and was acquitted by jury.

Yes. Thank you!

171 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:20:12pm

re: #140 Charles

The laws of Kansas require that two doctors certify a medical need for late term abortions. Dr. Tiller’s enemies scoured his records for years trying to find a single case in which those laws were violated, and the worst they came up with was a case in which his second opinion was allegedly not truly “independent” — and in that case, he was acquitted of all charges by a jury trial.

Clearly, Tiller broke no laws in Kansas.

The real issue I believe are the Kansas laws- few other states have laws as obtuse when it comes to 3rd term abortions. I think the Kansas laws are the issues.

172 jcm  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:20:15pm

re: #150 Kreuzueber Halbmond

These people aren’t Christian; they’re rabid, blood thirsty hatemongers who wouldn’t know God or the Kingdom of Heaven if it bit them on their putrid, stone age asses. They are shit out of luck in the Christ consciousness department, no matter what they call themselves.

They very well may be saved, accepted Christ and Savior. Which would make them Christian, however they have not grown in the spirit and the fruits are not manifest. At best they are stunted.

However to the world they are to often the face of Christianity.

173 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:20:44pm

.

Thou shalt not bear false witness

174 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:20:58pm

There is a Jewish children’s organization called “Tzivos Hashem” (“Army of G-D” in Hebrew). All my kids belonged to it, and earned points and rank by doing “mitzvot” like “go to synagogue on Shabbat” “light Shabbat candles” “give charity” “Listen to shofar on Rosh Hashanah” “eat matzah on Passover” etc.

No awards for shooting abortion docs. Not sure about the Palestinian baby blood, though.

//////////

175 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:21:07pm

I might be wrong … but I thought late term abortions usually required a two day procedure … they are not a quick procedures … not a great thing to think about the actual procedure … but it is what it is … and it does not happen fast …

176 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:21:10pm

I treat the Army of God lot like one would a blazing gas fire. With Respect and Distance

177 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:21:21pm

On a non-related matter, is it just me or do members of the Army of God look really unevolved?

178 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:21:55pm

re: #172 jcm

They very well may be saved, accepted Christ and Savior. Which would make them Christian, however they have not grown in the spirit and the fruits are not manifest. At best they are stunted.

However to the world they are to often the face of Christianity.

sadly, yes…I’m not a Christian but neither am I happy watching millions of decent people suffer at the hands of extremists

179 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:22:35pm

re: #163 notutopia

Ok, so 7 or 8 procedures per day is perfectly possible?

Fine.

Now if somebody is interested, they can search and post an accurate, valid number of procedures Dr. Tiller did.

This number is not a justification for his murder.

It just a fact.

Deal with it.

180 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:22:38pm

re: #159 Thanos

Here’s a link to a search, if you page through the search you can pull up the same report for for every year since 1996, see if you can get the late term abortions for all of Kansas to add up to anything near 60k.

[Link: www.cdc.gov…]

Did Tiller perform ONLY late-term abortions?

Genuine question.

These discussions seem to ebb and flow between “late-term abortions for the health of the mother”, and ANY abortion, including early-term abortions of sick or deformed or just inconvenient infants.

I don’t know how many abortions Tiller could have performed given the time he had. But if he performed ONLY late-term abortions, then O’Reilly is certainly incorrect. But if Tiller’s clinic performed all types of abortions, then the figure may be close to 60,000 over the life-span of the clinic.

181 bcgirl  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:23:12pm

re: #173 Thanos

.


and there you go

182 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:23:16pm

re: #161 albusteve

You seem to know a lot about Christ, or maybe you are just compartmentalizing for simplicity’s sake.

183 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:24:21pm

Gimme a break. Tiller was not a murderer, nor was he ever on trial for murder.

re: #165 alegrias

* * * *
So did O.J. Simpson.

This statement is just ridiculous.

184 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:24:24pm

re: #179 Kenneth

Kenneth, you’re preaching to the choir.
I am NOT the one having a problem with the numbers.
Are you?

185 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:24:54pm

re: #179 Kenneth

Read the CDC reports. You can see how many happened in Kansas, and you can see that the 60k number is a lie, cooked up by Randall Terry and Ilk.

186 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:25:16pm

re: #182 Kreuzueber Halbmond

You seem to know a lot about Christ, or maybe you are just compartmentalizing for simplicity’s sake.

maybe you are indulging in intellectual gymnastics…I know little about Christ you are correct, but that is not the issue here

187 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:26:21pm

re: #166 Thanos

Why don’t you read the CDC report links posted above? Your claim and your numbers are totally bogus, and insidious lies.

Excuse me but I’m not making any “claims”. I don’t know how many he did, but 7 a day doesn’t seem to be an absurd number. So calm down.

188 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:26:52pm

In the Overnight thread spin-offs I posted a link to the PJM piece by Klavan, on the Tiller topic, in which he says:

[…] How can you discuss things in a civil manner when your right to make a final decision about them has been taken away by seven Little Caesars who think their black robes make them kings? It’s tyranny, pure and simple, whether you believe in abortion rights or not. […]

So, with PJM/Klavan calling the USSC “Caesars” and their rendered decisions “tyranny”, would not the Tea Party movement (supposedly the defenders of America from tyranny) do something about those “Little Caesars”?

189 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:26:52pm

re: #180 reine.de.tout

Did Tiller perform ONLY late-term abortions?

Genuine question.

These discussions seem to ebb and flow between “late-term abortions for the health of the mother”, and ANY abortion, including early-term abortions of sick or deformed or just inconvenient infants.

I don’t know how many abortions Tiller could have performed given the time he had. But if he performed ONLY late-term abortions, then O’Reilly is certainly incorrect. But if Tiller’s clinic performed all types of abortions, then the figure may be close to 60,000 over the life-span of the clinic.

No, unfortunately problems sometimes occur during or pre delivery. Some of these happen in hospitals under “save the life of the mother” circumstances.

190 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:27:06pm

re: #54 ArmyWife

hi group.

Just as I find violence in the name of being a “good” Muslim revolting, I find this stuff equally so. Neither deserve to be labeled “religious” when they are more accurately crazy.

PS I am borrowing a neighbors wireless - I hope the neighbor hasn’t been banned from LGF. I’ll have my own fios Saturday. I am in the new house though!

Congratulations!

191 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:28:08pm

re: #184 notutopia

Kenneth, you’re preaching to the choir.
I am NOT the one having a problem with the numbers.
Are you?

Charles insisted the math is impossible. I demonstrated the math is perfctly doable. I have asked for accurate numbers. Rather than provide better numbers, Charles chose to insult me and say he’s through talking to me about it.

Oh well. I can live with that.

192 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:28:55pm
193 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:29:08pm

re: #189 Thanos

No, unfortunately problems sometimes occur during or pre delivery. Some of these happen in hospitals under “save the life of the mother” circumstances.

OK, well, I’m still not sure whether Tiller performed ONLY late-term abortions, in which case O’Reilly’s numbers are way off, OR whether his clinic provided services for all types of abortions, in which case there really isn’t a way to tell how far off O’Reilly’s numbers are.

194 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:29:15pm

re: #191 Kenneth

I’ve given you the links, you are ignoring them it seems.

195 BignJames  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:29:50pm

re: #188 freetoken

I don’t know if he’s referring to the Roe v Wade vote…but there are 9 justices on SCOTUS.

196 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:30:37pm

re: #189 Thanos

No, unfortunately problems sometimes occur during or pre delivery. Some of these happen in hospitals under “save the life of the mother” circumstances.

Eclampsia is a condition which is certainly life-threatening for the mother, but in most cases it can be treated by inducing labor or performing a C-section, without sacrificing the life of the baby.

197 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:30:44pm

re: #191 Kenneth

Yes, but the discussion of numbers on your part is nothing more than mental masturbation as you do not know how much time it takes to preform the procedure. Neither do I.

198 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:30:53pm

re: #185 Thanos

Don’t be coy, post the numbers here for us all to see.
Are you referring to total abortions or only late term procedures?

In any event, as I have stated several times, I am not asserting the 60,000 figure is correct, only that the math is perfectly doable that such a number could be done.

Tell us what the correct total number is then?

199 Wendya  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:30:58pm

I went to the cached version of the AOG website and found this at the top:

The lives of innocent babies scheduled to be murdered by George Tiller are spared by the action of American hero Scott Roeder.
George Tiller the Babykiller reaped what he sowed and is now in eternal hell.

I’m sure members of al Qaeda feel the same way about their suicide bombers.

200 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:31:13pm

re: #194 Thanos

Post the numbers for us all to see.

201 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:31:37pm

re: #79 jcm

The believe they are Christian, acting on God’s will. A very dangerous thing….

But the fruit of the spirit is certainly lacking.

Galations 5:22, 23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control: against such things there is no law.

These loons are rebuked by Christian scripture. Islamic terrorists? Not so much condemnation in the Koran and the hadiths for them.

202 BignJames  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:31:44pm

re: #191 Kenneth

Charles insisted the math is impossible. I demonstrated the math is perfctly doable. I have asked for accurate numbers. Rather than provide better numbers, Charles chose to insult me and say he’s through talking to me about it.

Oh well. I can live with that.


You might oughtta get that bug outta yer ass.

203 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:31:53pm

That Ann Coulter column may be the most disgusting thing she’s ever written. Please don’t post a link to it here.

204 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:31:56pm

re: #191 Kenneth

Kenneth, you’re using me to Triangulate your frustration with Charles.
Do NOT do this to me.
Show US the numbers.

205 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:31:58pm

re: #192 hous bin pharteen

[Link: www.anncoulter.com…]

From your link:

Tiller was protected not only by a praetorian guard of elected Democrats, […]

So Coulter is on the same wavelength as Klavan.

We’re all socialists ancient Romans now.

206 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:32:12pm

re: #164 Charles

The only reason the number matters is because it was used by the anti-abortion movement to drum up an insane amount of hatred for Dr. Tiller. So much hatred that he was almost killed once before, and then successfully murdered last weekend.

I understand that. I’m speaking to the people here that seem to be making an issue of the number. In my mind, if they are fixated on the number, they are somehow trying to minimize the severity of the crime committed by Tiller’s murderer.

207 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:32:16pm

re: #195 BignJames

Yes he is.

208 alegrias  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:32:17pm

When I returned to this thread moments ago, there was an advertisement for a pregnancy calculator on the right hand side of LGF showing a woman with an X-ray view of her very pregnant belly asking “When is your baby due?”

So with that imagery of what appeared to be a full term baby from Charles’ advertisement in my mind, I bid you goodnight.

209 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:32:19pm

re: #203 Charles


Let me guess, she says he had it coming?

210 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:32:24pm

re: #197 Slumbering Behemoth

See #163 notutopia.

211 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:32:46pm

Shelley Shannon’s Wiki:

Rachelle Ranae “Shelley” Shannon (born 1956) is an anti-abortion extremist from Grants Pass, Oregon, United States. She shot Dr. George Tiller outside his abortion clinic in Wichita, Kansas on August 19, 1993, shooting him in both arms.[1][2][3] She is serving time in FCI Dublin.[4] Her projected release date is November 7, 2018.

At the time she attacked Tiller, Shannon had been an anti-abortion activist for five years and had written letters of support to Michael Griffin, who murdered David Gunn. She called Griffin “the awesomest, greatest hero of our time.” She traveled to the Wichita clinic, a site of frequent demonstrations by abortion-rights and pro-life activists, and shot Tiller with a semiautomatic pistol.[5]

At her trial in state court, she testified that there was nothing immoral about trying to kill Tiller. The jury deliberated for only an hour before convicting Shannon of attempted murder; she was sentenced to 11 years.[5][6]

Shannon signed the Army of God’s statement in support of the actions of Paul Jennings Hill while incarcerated in Lansing, Kansas. [7]

On June 4, 1995, she pleaded guilty to setting fires at several abortion clinics in Oregon, California, Idaho and Nevada. She had been indicted by federal grand juries on 30 counts in connection with fires and acid attacks at nine clinics. Charges included arson, interference with commerce by force and interstate travel in aid of racketeering.[8][9] On September 9, 1995, U.S. Federal District Court Judge James A. Redden pronounced Shannon’s sentence for these crimes. Departing upward from the applicable federal sentencing guidelines, the Court sentenced Shannon to 20 years in prison. The sentence was set to begin only after Shannon’s ten-year incarceration for shooting Tiller is completed.[10]

Her daughter, Angela Shannon (born ca. 1974),[11] was prosecuted for sending a death threat in 1993 to George Woodward, a Milwaukee doctor who performed abortions. (The letter arrived on March 3, 1993—a week before the murder of David Gunn.) The elder Shannon attempted to take the blame for the death threat, but in view of Angela’s fingerprints having been found on the letter, Angela was convicted and sentenced to 46 months’ incarceration in 1997.[12]

In 1998, Shelley Shannon filed a lawsuit contending that the sewage system in the Kansas prison was inadequate, and that sewage backups created unhealthful conditions for the inmates. Her lawsuit was dismissed by U.S. District Judge Kathryn Vratil in Kansas City, Kansas. The dismissal was upheld by a 2-1 vote of the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.[13]

212 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:33:27pm

re: #196 Alouette

Eclampsia is a condition which is certainly life-threatening for the mother, but in most cases it can be treated by inducing labor or performing a C-section, without sacrificing the life of the baby.

I’m talking about pregnant moms in car wreck situations, these sometimes happen, and they aren’t going to fly them to Wichita. The fetus is already dead. Some of the babies aborted by Tiller were already dead.

213 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:33:49pm

re: #206 Alberta Oil Peon

You’re exactly right. No number is going to justify his MURDER.

214 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:33:59pm

re: #206 Alberta Oil Peon

I understand that. I’m speaking to the people here that seem to be making an issue of the number. In my mind, if they are fixated on the number, they are somehow trying to minimize the severity of the crime committed by Tiller’s murderer.

Indeed.

215 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:34:03pm

re: #203 Charles

That Ann Coulter column may be the most disgusting thing she’s ever written. Please don’t post a link to it here.

The one from 2002?

216 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:34:48pm

re: #210 Kenneth

See #175 JacksonTn

Still just mental masturbation.

217 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:34:56pm

re: #204 notutopia

My entry to this discussion was a response to the assertion that the math is impossible. Well, it isn’t.

Thanos and others insist the 60, 000 figure is incorrect, wihtout posting the correct numbers. I have never claimed it is correct. I jsut did the math.

What part of this is so hard to understand?

218 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:34:57pm

re: #194 Thanos

Your CDC link says there were 10,462 abortions in Kansas in 2005. Obviously Tiller (or Tiller’s clinic) didn’t perform all of them, but it doesn’t tell us how many were done at his clinic. I don’t see what you think it proves.

219 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:36:10pm
220 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:36:20pm

re: #212 Thanos

I’m talking about pregnant moms in car wreck situations, these sometimes happen, and they aren’t going to fly them to Wichita. The fetus is already dead. Some of the babies aborted by Tiller were already dead.

I wasn’t thinking of those cases but you’re right. In the case of removing a stillbirth, that would not technically be an “abortion” would it?

221 Dianna  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:36:31pm

re: #209 HAL2010

Let me guess, she says he had it coming?

While saying - naturally - that she wouldn’t do it herself.

Which makes her both a coward while experiencing a slimy thrill at the thought.

222 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:36:35pm

Ok folks, good night.

223 jcm  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:37:01pm

re: #218 nomra

Your CDC link says there were 10,462 abortions in Kansas in 2005. Obviously Tiller (or Tiller’s clinic) didn’t perform all of them, but it doesn’t tell us how many were done at his clinic. I don’t see what you think it proves.

60,000 over a 30 year career. 2000 a year.

According to the number being thrown out.

Tiller did 20% of all abortions in Kansas?

224 IslandLibertarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:37:43pm

re: #114 HAL2010

Hal, you’ve got a point, and I’ve met some that believe they are “in tune with God” more than anyone else. It’s boring.
But I take the view that as humans, regardless of faith or religious trappings, we are ALL capable of the most horrible acts. History is my witness.
It’s comes down to how we decide to live, each minute at a time.

225 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:37:52pm

re: #218 nomra

Your CDC link says there were 10,462 abortions in Kansas in 2005. Obviously Tiller (or Tiller’s clinic) didn’t perform all of them, but it doesn’t tell us how many were done at his clinic. I don’t see what you think it proves.

It also tells you that there were only 480 or so late term abortions, which is what Tiller specializes in. Or were you purposefully ignoring that?

The overwhelming majority of abortions in Kansas happen in KC, Topeka, and Dodge, not in Dr. Tiller’s clinic

226 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:39:12pm

re: #221 Dianna

While saying - naturally - that she wouldn’t do it herself.

Which makes her both a coward while experiencing a slimy thrill at the thought.

Which, lets face it, is nothing new. She represents the very worst in American punditry if you ask me.

227 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:39:41pm

Googling Tiller and numbers results in a couple of articles that estimate he saw maybe 300 to 350 per year. Over a 20 year period that would be between 6000 and 7000.

228 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:40:49pm

Nomra: You are going to have to face the fact that other Christians lied to you.

229 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:41:25pm

re: #227 kansas

Googling Tiller and numbers results in a couple of articles that estimate he saw maybe 300 to 350 per year. Over a 20 year period that would be between 6000 and 7000.

Right — in other words, an order of magnitude less than 60,000.

230 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:42:40pm

re: #228 Thanos

Nomra: You are going to have to face the fact that other Christians lied to you.

(no comment)

231 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:42:49pm

re: #221 Dianna

I consider her to be scum.

232 pegcity  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:44:14pm

so once again, killing abortion doctors is like savings jews from concentration camps.

How do the jews get dragged into EVERYTHING, arrgh

233 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:45:04pm

re: #224 IslandLibertarian

Hal, you’ve got a point, and I’ve met some that believe they are “in tune with God” more than anyone else. It’s boring.
But I take the view that as humans, regardless of faith or religious trappings, we are ALL capable of the most horrible acts. History is my witness.
It’s comes down to how we decide to live, each minute at a time.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Can’t remember who said it, but it is true.

234 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:45:26pm

re: #231 Slumbering Behemoth

I consider her to be scum.

go with the flow…your own flow

235 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:45:33pm
236 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:45:53pm
Following the moral precepts of liberals, I believe the correct position is: If you don’t believe in shooting abortionists, then don’t shoot one.

WTF?! That woman [deleted] is insane.

237 RememberSekhmet?  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:46:37pm

re: #150 Kreuzueber Halbmond

I regret I only have one ding to ding you up with

238 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:47:09pm

re: #233 HAL2010

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Can’t remember who said it, but it is true.

I didn’t coin it but it seems to have applied to me

239 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:47:17pm

re: #232 pegcity

so once again, killing abortion doctors is like savings jews from concentration camps.

How do the jews get dragged into EVERYTHING, arrgh

This just makes me crazy! If these “Army of god” creeps were around during the Holocaust, they would be the ones rounding up the Jews.

Not one Jew was saved during the Holocaust by armed citizens storming a concentration camp or leaving obstructions on the railroad tracks.

However a lot of fugitive Jews were caught and turned in by armed citizens.

240 notutopia  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:47:30pm

re: #228 Thanos


We all have lied at sometime in our lives Thanos.
It is a precursor to mistrust.

Some lies, like these radical anti-abortionists statements, are just malicious, convenient and inciteful to lure others to their “cause”.
Just like overstating the numbers.

The core issue here is that NO amount of numbers is a justification for the MURDER of Dr. Tiller.

241 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:48:09pm

re: #133 Dr. Shalit

gruvin -

The way I see it is this, Judaism and Christianity have reached levels of maturity and amity that Islam has NOT.
This leaves two questions:

1. Can Islam come to the same point, disregarding its origins.

2. Can the REST of the World Afford to Wait.

The answer to those two (2) QUESTIONS will determine the future.

-S-

The violent parts of the Bible can be laid to rest by appeals to historical context. There are no more wars with Jebusites, Perrizites, Moabites, Edomites, and etc., so those passages are moot. Not so in the Koran. The voice is always the voice of God, and the time is always the present. The faithful are commanded to fight all unbelievers, everywhere, forever.

242 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:48:28pm

This is what I was wondering about recently when I asked, sort of, a lizard what was meant by his handle that said “The armies of Christ will rise again”.

I didn’t receive an answer.

243 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:48:54pm

re: #234 albusteve

go with the flow…your own flow

I would brew my own beer, but I’m too lazy and don’t have the space for it. For now, I go with the store bought flow.

244 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:49:00pm

re: #171 researchok

Clearly, Tiller broke no laws in Kansas.

The real issue I believe are the Kansas laws- few other states have laws as obtuse when it comes to 3rd term abortions. I think the Kansas laws are the issues.

Tiller remained under investigation by the board. Read it for yourself. [Link: www.ksbha.org…]

245 IslandLibertarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:49:15pm

re: #149 freetoken

Dude,
The question was “Would Jesus murder……” not a misguided fanatic.
Christian means Christlike.
It’s pretty simple.

246 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:49:23pm

The Hoopster is so happy..Nelson comes off the Injured list tonight..The X factor..And plays the perfect point guard role off the bench…Nobody saw this coming..
Come on Magic!
/Could somebody please distract Kobe tonight? Is there not one foxy lizard willing to take one for the team? LOL

247 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:49:33pm

re: #243 Slumbering Behemoth

I would brew my own beer, but I’m too lazy and don’t have the space for it. For now, I go with the store bought flow.

whatever…you have the drift

248 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:49:57pm

re: #229 Charles

Right — in other words, an order of magnitude less than 60,000.

Yeah, about 10 times less. I don’t understand the necessity to exaggerate the numbers.

249 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:50:48pm

re: #225 Thanos

It also tells you that there were only 480 or so late term abortions, which is what Tiller specializes in. Or were you purposefully ignoring that?

The overwhelming majority of abortions in Kansas happen in KC, Topeka, and Dodge, not in Dr. Tiller’s clinic

OK I thought we were were talking about abortions period. So Tiller’s clinic only does late term abortions? If so, and 2005 is a representative year, then yeah, the 60000 figure is waaay off. However, if Tiller’s clinic performs all the abortions in Kansas after 12 weeks, then you get 1,528. Times that by 35 and you get 53,480.
Still off, but looks more like the same ballpark.

250 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:51:01pm

re: #248 kansas

Yeah, about 10 times less. I don’t understand the necessity to exaggerate the numbers.

Because in their own warped minds it makes it excusable.

251 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:51:14pm

re: #246 HoosierHoops

/Could somebody please distract Kobe tonight? Is there not one foxy lizard willing to take one for the team? LOL

No, sorry. I respect myself. Sex without love is just gross. Meaningless. Empty.

252 pegcity  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:51:31pm

Do these peoples not have jobs?

253 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:52:11pm

re: #247 albusteve

whatever…you have the drift

That’s right, I forgot that I sometimes go with the draft flow at the bar.

/yeah, I think I get your drift, but maybe not. Not a big deal.

254 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:52:20pm

re: #225 Thanos

It also tells you that there were only 480 or so late term abortions, which is what Tiller specializes in. Or were you purposefully ignoring that?

The overwhelming majority of abortions in Kansas happen in KC, Topeka, and Dodge, not in Dr. Tiller’s clinic

He did late term abortions which are allowed under circumstances outlined by the board of healing arts. [Link: www.ksbha.org…]

255 justdanny  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:53:49pm

Abortion simply as a means of not having an unwanted child, is to me like a waking nightmare, if I think about it with clearly.

I am not for or against it. I have no mommy parts.

Tens of millions of abortions have been performed in this country in the last thirty years. Pro whatever, thats too many.

Too many friends and coworkers and neighbors I never knew.

256 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:54:04pm

re: #251 Sharmuta

And expensive. You left out “expensive”.
/

I’m feeling too loopy, gonna go eat something. Later Lizards.

257 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:54:17pm
258 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:54:29pm

re: #242 Naso Tang

This is what I was wondering about recently when I asked, sort of, a lizard what was meant by his handle that said “The armies of Christ will rise again”.

I didn’t receive an answer.


Back in town…..

The problem I have with anyone/group who uses the term “army of god” or a derivative of that phrase usually make reference to the book of Joel.

The problem is that in the full context of the scriptures, the army spoken of in the book of Joel is not God’s army but the army of stan.

259 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:54:49pm

re: #257 taxfreekiller

Obama, 5 Star General of the Bull Shit Army.

gesundheit

260 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:55:07pm

re: #245 IslandLibertarian

And I told you… that the answer is, Yes.

At least, according to the Jesus whose followers are the discussion of the videos in the keypost, and was in the head of Roeder.

261 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:56:11pm

re: #235 researchok

Phil Kline’s populist political ploys all got tossed out, struck down or retracted. He never won a case on this to my knowledge. He got deselected by voters for making this his crusade and going far overboard.

262 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:56:30pm
263 BatGuano  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:58:17pm

re: #258 A Kiwi Infidel

Stan, who? :)

264 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:58:21pm

re: #251 Sharmuta

No, sorry. I respect myself. Sex without love is just gross. Meaningless. Empty.

You know why I can’t stand Kobe?
Sorry Charles…
He took a young girl in Colorado and took advantage of her…He has no class..
Sure..He is not guilty of Rape as charged..After many millions of dollars in Lawyers’ fees and a 3 million dollar ring to his wife…He is pure as driven snow…The only reason he isn’t spending the rest of his days in a small room is because he is one of the top athletes that play ball of all time..
You don’t think that bothers me?

265 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:58:47pm

re: #244 kansas

Tiller remained under investigation by the board. Read it for yourself. [Link: www.ksbha.org…]

Understood.

To my mind, 250-300 abortions a year at $6,000 merits scrutiny.

In the US, 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.

In Sweden, 5.6% of abortions were carried out between 12 and 17 weeks, and 0.8% at or greater than 18 weeks- that is almost half of procedures performed here.

In Canada, 6.5% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 2.2% between 17 to 20 weeks, and 0.8% over 20 weeks. This sample included procedures carried out in hospitals and clinics- again, a little over half of the procedures performed here.

In New Zealand, 2.03% of induced abortions were done between weeks 16 to 19, and 0.56% were done over 20 weeks- less than half of the later term abortions performed here.

Late term abortions are all about a woman’s health, we are told.

Are American women so much less healthy than women elsewhere?

266 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:59:03pm

I swear a handful of issues just continue to fuck everything up … same issues year after year … election after election … do you think it was always like this? …

267 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:59:37pm

re: #263 BatGuano

Stan, who? :)


ssshhhhhhh

268 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:59:44pm

re: #257 taxfreekiller

Obama, 5 Star General of the Bull Shit Army.

TFK.. I hope today finds you well and happy…

269 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 6:59:50pm

re: #258 A Kiwi Infidel

Back in town…..

The problem I have with anyone/group who uses the term “army of god” or a derivative of that phrase usually make reference to the book of Joel.

The problem is that in the full context of the scriptures, the army spoken of in the book of Joel is not God’s army but the army of stan.

Yeah, me too. I’ve got a huge problem with those Salvation Army pricks!

270 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:00:09pm

re: #264 HoosierHoops

You know why I can’t stand Kobe?
Sorry Charles…
He took a young girl in Colorado and took advantage of her…He has no class..
Sure..He is not guilty of Rape as charged..After many millions of dollars in Lawyers’ fees and a 3 million dollar ring to his wife…He is pure as driven snow…The only reason he isn’t spending the rest of his days in a small room is because he is one of the top athletes that play ball of all time..
You don’t think that bothers me?

It was estimated to cost $4 million when he bought it in 2003

271 IslandLibertarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:00:52pm

re: #260 freetoken

Free, please tell me that you have not been so swayed by this religious fanaticism to believe that “Jesus”, the one we learned about, who came and preached the Gospel, that “Jesus” would commit murder.
I’m not talking about those idiots saying he would.

272 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:01:56pm
273 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:02:02pm

re: #261 Thanos

Phil Kline’s populist political ploys all got tossed out, struck down or retracted. He never won a case on this to my knowledge. He got deselected by voters for making this his crusade and going far overboard.

No question, Kline is a less than stellar legal mind and self serving to boot. He was the wrong guy for the job. There is a reason Kansas is ‘out there’ when it comes to abortion laws.

274 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:02:20pm

re: #264 HoosierHoops

You know why I can’t stand Kobe?
Sorry Charles…
He took a young girl in Colorado and took advantage of her…He has no class..
Sure..He is not guilty of Rape as charged..After many millions of dollars in Lawyers’ fees and a 3 million dollar ring to his wife…He is pure as driven snow…The only reason he isn’t spending the rest of his days in a small room is because he is one of the top athletes that play ball of all time..
You don’t think that bothers me?

the particulars have been left out…nobody knows…whatever he is he’s not faithful to his wife

275 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:02:28pm

re: #261 Thanos

Phil Kline’s populist political ploys all got tossed out, struck down or retracted. He never won a case on this to my knowledge. He got deselected by voters for making this his crusade and going far overboard.

Part of that was the constant pounding he took by the local liberal rag, the Star. Tiller did multiple abortions on minors, and having sex with a minor is illegal. Sex by the way is how they get pregnant. If a minor is pregnant the law has been broken. Pedophila, incest, and statutory rape are crimes. If the legislature wants to change the law, and make sex legal at all ages then they should, but the AG shouldn’t be run out of office or ridiculed for trying to enforce the law.

276 pegcity  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:02:44pm

so is the DHS wrong in targeting these people?

277 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:03:07pm

re: #271 IslandLibertarian

No True-Jesus would have ordered the shooting of Tiller?

278 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:03:51pm

re: #265 researchok

Understood.

To my mind, 250-300 abortions a year at $6,000 merits scrutiny.

In the US, 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.

In Sweden, 5.6% of abortions were carried out between 12 and 17 weeks, and 0.8% at or greater than 18 weeks- that is almost half of procedures performed here.

In Canada, 6.5% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 2.2% between 17 to 20 weeks, and 0.8% over 20 weeks. This sample included procedures carried out in hospitals and clinics- again, a little over half of the procedures performed here.

In New Zealand, 2.03% of induced abortions were done between weeks 16 to 19, and 0.56% were done over 20 weeks- less than half of the later term abortions performed here.

Late term abortions are all about a woman’s health, we are told.

Are American women so much less healthy than women elsewhere?

As someone half Swedish I can only speak from my limited experience of that particular country, but I have found that Sweden is far more open about sex, and sexuality, than America. As a result pregnancies, abortion and contraceptives are openly discussed. When I attended school teachers were handing out condoms by the time most people were 14.

I honestly think that a frank openness goes a long way as to explain why Sweden has so few cases of late term abortions.

Just an opinion, mind.

279 pegcity  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:03:54pm

current Holocaust, arrgh.

280 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:04:28pm

re: #215 MandyManners

The one from 2002?

As usual, she’s not arguing a point, she’s performing in print.

281 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:05:29pm

IslandLibertarian - your argument is just a more sophisticated version of No True Christian would do so-and-so.

282 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:07:06pm

I hope at least some of you are watching this documentary, because it really is chilling. There is a movement in this country that believes it’s correct and appropriate, by Biblical standards, to murder people.

283 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:07:51pm

re: #278 HAL2010

As someone half Swedish I can only speak from my limited experience of that particular country, but I have found that Sweden is far more open about sex, and sexuality, than America. As a result pregnancies, abortion and contraceptives are openly discussed. When I attended school teachers were handing out condoms by the time most people were 14.

I honestly think that a frank openness goes a long way as to explain why Sweden has so few cases of late term abortions.

Just an opinion, mind.

You may be right, but the numbers tell the story when it comes to abortion. Late term abortion in the US is less about a woman’s health than elsewhere. To begin with, abortion is regarded as birth control by way to many women.

The questions are why that is so and what do we do to reduce the rate of late term abortion.

284 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:07:52pm

re: #282 Charles

I hope at least some of you are watching this documentary, because it really is chilling. There is a movement in this country that believes it’s correct and appropriate, by Biblical standards, to murder people.

are they Christians tho?…..never mind

285 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:08:47pm

re: #282 Charles

I hope at least some of you are watching this documentary, because it really is chilling. There is a movement in this country that believes it’s correct and appropriate, by Biblical standards, to murder people.

Charles … there always has been … the current cause just happens to be abortion …. I have seen this video before …

286 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:08:55pm

re: #156 Alberta Oil Peon

So who really gives a shit how many abortions were performed by Dr. Tiller? It’s completely irrelevant. The guy was murdered by some creep who did it because he performed abortions. Or do you have some sort of metric in mind?

Lemmesee, hmmm:

1 - 10 abortions: drop from Christmas card list.

10 - 100 abortions: shun on street.

100 - 1000 abortions: kick out of country club.

1000+ abortions: murder.

////, needless to say

Because, I think this needs repeating! The NUMBER is irrelevant.

287 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:09:10pm

“History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid” - Gen Eisenhower.

In preparing for a major sea battle, make sure of the following:

Have your major surface combatants destroyed or seriously damaged and unavailable for use.
Make sure the enemy has 4 aircraft carriers and some big battleships headed for you.
Make sure you are outnumbered in aircraft carriers by 4 to 3.
Have 1 of your 3 aircraft carriers severely damaged and limp into port unable to support flight operations.
Have only a vague idea where the enemy fleet might be.
Arrange to have your most aggressive, experienced aviator admiral come down with some sort of skin infection that puts him in a hospital bed, unavailable for duty.
Replace him with a non-aviator admiral just in time for what you know has to be a battle largely fought by carrier aircraft. See #1.
Have him hatch a scheme that hides the fleet way off to the north of where you think the enemy are headed. Just in case they aren’t because your fleet is all that stands as a defensive barrier between Hawaii and the U.S. mainland.
Make sure the whole battle will turn on which fleet spots the other fleet first.
Do hasty repairs on that banged up carrier and send her, after 24 hours out to sea with civilian workers to try and do more repairs underway.
Don’t have enough patrol aircraft out looking for the enemy fleet so that your coverage of possible avenues of approach is spotty.
Make sure your torpedo attack planes are slow and carry torpedoes that can only o be dropped after a long, slow low level flight toward enemy ships.
When you spot the enemy fleet, make sure it is at the maximum range of your aircraft.
Make sure your tactics include the arrival of the low slow torpedo bombers and the dive bombers and fighters all at the same time, otherwise the torpedo bombers will be “sitting ducks.”
Make sure that the tactic described in #12 does not work out at all. Lose nearly all your torpedo planes early in the engagement.
Arrange for an enemy sub to end up in the middle of your formation where it will eventually sink one of your carriers.
Have ground based aircraft from Midway Island find the enemy fleet and carry the fight to him as well as they can.
Have this fight cause the enemy fleet to be in the act of rearming reserve aircraft when your main air attack starts and fouling the deck with ordnance.
Have the enemy distracted by the low and slow torpedo bombers while your dive bombers arrive to do their work.
Scatter your aircraft so that instead of all arriving at once they appear to come in waves.
Have a stubborn squadron leader who, instead of turning back with low fuel, kept searching until the enemy fleet was spotted and attacked.
Have the non-aviator admiral make the decision to head his carriers toward the enemy fleet so he could cycle his aircraft faster.
Sink all 4 enemy carriers, while only losing 1.
Completely halt the enemy attack and turn the tide of the war.
Be very, very lucky.

67 years ago TODAY The Battle of Midway.

288 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:09:50pm

re: #269 nomra

Yeah, me too. I’ve got a huge problem with those Salvation Army pricks!


Point taken, I’ll exclude them, coz they dont go around quoting from the book of Joel. Their statement of faith if focussed on the teaching of Christ and I dont have a problem with that. They also dont shoot abortionists

289 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:10:13pm

re: #23 dapperdave

I would have to say JCM these people are not Christians, I don’t see the love of Christ in any of these folks, Jesus said love thy neighbor not blow them up.

I watched the whole set. These seem more like fractured lost people to me. People wrapped up in violence. That is like taking the bite out of the apple. After going astray off of God’s path it becomes harder to perceive the way back. This happens to all people.

The problems arises then that these lost people will get something like an erection and interpret it as the direct will of Jesus and God. They are unable to tell the difference.

Nothing in their life is golden to them it is all dark. At the pastor level there needs to be a non violent message and a message of how to be a good example. People will make the proper choices when they perceive a good path.

These of God people need to be saved. the Baptism was not effective.

290 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:10:41pm

“Why does God need an army?”

-James Tiberius Kirk

(well, almost)

291 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:11:01pm

re: #274 albusteve

the particulars have been left out…nobody knows…whatever he is he’s not faithful to his wife

I cannot post on this subject..I followed every single word of every single article posted during this.. I have come to my conclusion about Kobe..
Because I am a fair man and not a jury..I will not trash him on a public Blog..It’s not fair..And he seems to be busy tonight kicking the shit out of the Magic….halftime

292 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:11:49pm

I have just finished watching the whole documentary, and one thing that struck me was the incredible anger within the men who control the AOG.

I find it interesting that those who seem to be most fanatic about abortion are those who cannot get pregnant.
Wonder what Freud would say about it.

On a more serious not, I find it genuinely scary that people like those in the AOG exist in America today. Their views belong in another century.

293 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:11:51pm

re: #126 researchok

Getting caught up in the numbers deflects from the issue at hand.

Without commenting on the pro life/pro choice issues it is a matter of fact that late 3rd term abortions are rarely a medical necessity.

The current standard for abortion is legal but rare.

Dr Tiller has made profit a part of the equation and couched his greed in ethical terms.

Out of a population exceeding 300 million people, it is not surprising that 1000 medically necessary late term abortions occur yearly. That is only one per 300,000 people.

294 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:12:09pm

re: #275 kansas

I don’t read the star, I voted against him.

295 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:12:32pm

re: #277 freetoken

No True-Jesus would have ordered the shooting of Tiller?


No, he would not have. If He can forgive the sin of the woman caught in adultery, a crime under the old testament law that demanded death by stoning, then he would not have ordered Tillers death, nor condoned it.

296 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:12:36pm

Apparently there are also some Muslim converts getting it from someplace that they should murder soldiers.

297 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:13:38pm

re: #294 Thanos

I don’t read the star, I voted against him.

How about the issue of the actual laws in Kansas?

298 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:15:13pm

re: #249 nomra

OK I thought we were were talking about abortions period. So Tiller’s clinic only does late term abortions? If so, and 2005 is a representative year, then yeah, the 60000 figure is waaay off. However, if Tiller’s clinic performs all the abortions in Kansas after 12 weeks, then you get 1,528. Times that by 35 and you get 53,480.
Still off, but looks more like the same ballpark.

He doesn’t, those are performed all over and you know it. Why do keep pimping this insane notion? You in love with O’Reilly, or are you trying to make excuses for Roeder?

299 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:15:40pm
300 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:16:17pm

re: #129 Kenneth

I have no idea how many they did, but the math works. You said the math is impossible, but it is not. With a staff it is perfectly impossible. No swear in fact. Why hot ask them and clear this up. I don’t trust O’Reilly as a factual source. But I would trust Dr. Tiller’s clinic to report accurately.

Do you have any statistics on how many abortions a clinic can perform per day? Seven procedures would hardly be a strain on the system.

Last year, Dr. Tiller performed 323 late term abortions. These are complex operations that require a good deal of time. You’re saying that, in addition to his specialty, he also had time to perform 1500 early and mid-term abortions that year - and every single year since Roe vs. Wade became law. I find this claim to be ridiculous on its face.

301 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:16:34pm

re: #293 Salamantis

Out of a population exceeding 300 million people, it is not surprising that 1000 medically necessary late term abortions occur yearly. That is only one per 300,000 people.

It is the numbers that are in question.

The rate of late term abortions in the US goes from more than double to almost double the rates in other countries.

302 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:16:48pm

re: #297 kansas

What’s your point? Please cut to the chase.

303 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:16:58pm

finished part two…I can not go on for a bit…there is a problem out there that no twisting word play is gonna solve…these people mean business and their trade is killing abortionists…just that simple

304 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:17:00pm

re: #299 taxfreekiller

Obama is creepy, he is going to end up with control of the census via ACORN, he will end up with the voter rolls and your names may be on the wrong list in his opinion. He and the Democrat thugs now control the banks, they are on the loan committee that ok’s loans now, you and yours will have to pass the test to get one of their commie red cents.

It is the big bull in the china shop. He and his do not have any intention of stopping at the edges of your freedoms and constitution.

What are you going to do when an ACORN census taker shows up and programs your front door coordinates into the government issued GPS?

305 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:17:08pm

re: #283 researchok

You may be right, but the numbers tell the story when it comes to abortion. Late term abortion in the US is less about a woman’s health than elsewhere. To begin with, abortion is regarded as birth control by way to many women.

The questions are why that is so and what do we do to reduce the rate of late term abortion.

I am not aware of what sort of contraceptives are available in the US, but in Sweden it is easy to get hold of a wide range of different options.
Women under the age of 21 can get the pill on a prescription (which is free), and after that they cost less than 30 dollars a year.

I would imagine that information and availability of options are strong contributing factors.

306 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:17:27pm

The documents described Sotomayor’s finances, which paint a portrait of a New Yorker in an expensive neighborhood who has $1.16 million in assets, as well as $418,350 in debts, mostly from her mortgage but also including credit card bills and a big DENTIST bill.

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

Sink your teeth into that!

307 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:17:43pm

re: #53 Charles

200 x 35 = 7000.

200 a year is silly. That would be 1 a day. Reports are that his clinic did an average of 10 a day. That would be 2000 a year.

308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:18:09pm

I probably will not survive the coming conflagration. I guess I’m just not angry enough.

Why are these people so angry. They live in America for fuck’s sake.

309 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:18:20pm

I am wondering if all the Army of God people are creationists? yah yah not all creationists are AoG. But it’s a fundamental difference.

I have a violent background and can drift off into it if I don’t watch myself. But when I was very young I killed a sparrow with a BB gun. I felt so bad afterwards. I would go out hunting with family and would always miss on purpose after that. Violence has no good end. It will haunt you for the rest of your life. We live in a great democracy. There really is no reason for violence inside it unless we face some external threat. If we can’t win hearts and minds we need to learn to reason better and be more expressive.

However violence does sell in the media above all else. Each individual has a responsibility to make the correct choice.

I would hunt today, but only because I would have a reason for it.

310 dapperdave  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:18:36pm

re: #289 hazzyday

I think the bible says that God does not tempt anyone to do evil?

311 pegcity  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:18:48pm

re: #308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I probably will not survive the coming conflagration. I guess I’m just not angry enough.

Why are these people so angry. They live in America for fuck’s sake.

because they are losers, look at em, these people were not well liked ever.

312 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:19:03pm

re: #306 Nevergiveup

The documents described Sotomayor’s finances, which paint a portrait of a New Yorker in an expensive neighborhood who has $1.16 million in assets, as well as $418,350 in debts, mostly from her mortgage but also including credit card bills and a big DENTIST bill.

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

Sink your teeth into that!

NGU … what does that have to do with anything? … if she was taking bribes or something like that it would be something … but just because she has money? … if she earned it … more power to her …

313 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:19:07pm

re: #302 Thanos

What’s your point? Please cut to the chase.

My point is that I think if the citizens of Kansas don’t want the laws enforced they should change the laws, not bitch about the AG who is trying to enforce them.

314 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:19:31pm

A bit more back on topic…
Those who are claiming that people like the “Army of God”, who kill or advocate killing in Jesus’ name, can’t possibly be “real Christians” are just engaging in a seriously ahistorical “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Christians would have gone the way of Gostics or a million other little sects/cults had Constantine not put the cross on his shield at the Battle of Milvian Bridge.

315 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:19:48pm

re: #311 pegcity

because they are losers, look at em, these people were not well liked ever.

bullshit…how do you know that?…they might be your neighbor for that matter

316 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:19:52pm

re: #307 Buck

200 a year is silly. That would be 1 a day. Reports are that his clinic did an average of 10 a day. That would be 2000 a year.

Buck there are links above to the CDC reports that catalog all abortions in Kansas since 1996. Go read them and quit with this preposterous nonsense.

317 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:20:04pm

re: #312 JacksonTn

NGU … what does that have to do with anything? … if she was taking bribes or something like that it would be something … but just because she has money? … if she earned it … more power to her …

Ever consider that she may be my patient?

318 VioletTiger  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:20:23pm

re: #308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I probably will not survive the coming conflagration. I guess I’m just not angry enough.

Why are these people so angry. They live in America for fuck’s sake.


They aren’t getting getting their way. I think it is as simple as that.

319 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:21:03pm

My Wings are gettin pounded.

320 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:21:12pm

re: #313 kansas

My point is that I think if the citizens of Kansas don’t want the laws enforced they should change the laws, not bitch about the AG who is trying to enforce them.

He wasn’t - he was campaigning through them. There’s a difference. His case got tossed, law was upheld, right?

321 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:21:19pm

re: #305 HAL2010

I am not aware of what sort of contraceptives are available in the US, but in Sweden it is easy to get hold of a wide range of different options.
Women under the age of 21 can get the pill on a prescription (which is free), and after that they cost less than 30 dollars a year.

I would imagine that information and availability of options are strong contributing factors.

This is America.

There is an entire contraceptive industry. We gave the world glow in the dark condoms.

322 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:21:25pm

re: #283 researchok

You may be right, but the numbers tell the story when it comes to abortion. Late term abortion in the US is less about a woman’s health than elsewhere. To begin with, abortion is regarded as birth control by way to many women.

The questions are why that is so and what do we do to reduce the rate of late term abortion.

Where are the numbers that tell this story? Do you have a link?

323 justdanny  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:22:03pm

re: #282 Charles

I hope at least some of you are watching this documentary, because it really is chilling. There is a movement in this country that believes it’s correct and appropriate, by Biblical standards, to murder people.

And I wonder how many of those darkened twisted hearts also believe it is appropriate to remove the teaching of evolution from the schools? Or add the teaching of ID to the schools? And where those two groups mesh, that large area, I wonder how many are democrats? I wonder how many if allowed would choose to punish me for my disbelief?

324 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:22:04pm

re: #322 ShanghaiEd

Where are the numbers that tell this story? Do you have a link?

go upthread…it’s all there

325 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:22:29pm

re: #314 nomra

A bit more back on topic…
Those who are claiming that people like the “Army of God”, who kill or advocate killing in Jesus’ name, can’t possibly be “real Christians” are just engaging in a seriously ahistorical “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Christians would have gone the way of Gostics or a million other little sects/cults had Constantine not put the cross on his shield at the Battle of Milvian Bridge.


Errors in usage

In situations where the subject’s status is previously determined by specific behaviors, the fallacy does not apply. For example, it is perfectly justified to say, “No true vegetarian eats meat,” because not eating meat is the single thing that precisely defines a person as a vegetarian.

326 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:22:32pm

re: #317 Nevergiveup

Ever consider that she may be my patient?

NGU .. lol … please be easy on her and charge her extra! …

327 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:22:32pm

re: #264 HoosierHoops

You know why I can’t stand Kobe?
Sorry Charles…
He took a young girl in Colorado and took advantage of her…He has no class..
Sure..He is not guilty of Rape as charged..After many millions of dollars in Lawyers’ fees and a 3 million dollar ring to his wife…He is pure as driven snow…The only reason he isn’t spending the rest of his days in a small room is because he is one of the top athletes that play ball of all time..
You don’t think that bothers me?

Hoosier, forgive me for butting in here, but as much as I am no Lakers fan, having grown up in Colorado and presently in Dallas, I am going with the jury on this. They and only they heard the whole story. Kobe is a convicted philanderer and the woman’s story was not sufficiently credible. I don’t think there is any pure, driven snow anywhere near this whole tawdry episode.

Mostly I am enjoying Howard and Turkelou play. When Kobe puts in 40 will it be be enough?

328 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:22:56pm

re: #321 researchok

This is America.

There is an entire contraceptive industry. We gave the world glow in the dark condoms.

I know. I was thinking more of social implications and availablity.
It would be interesting to see where most abortions in the country take place.

329 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:23:29pm

re: #323 justdanny

And I wonder how many of those darkened twisted hearts also believe it is appropriate to remove the teaching of evolution from the schools? Or add the teaching of ID to the schools? And where those two groups mesh, that large area, I wonder how many are democrats? I wonder how many if allowed would choose to punish me for my disbelief?

Oh- I’ll go out on a limb and say the two groups are likely one and the same.

330 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:23:36pm

re: #326 JacksonTn

NGU .. lol … please be easy on her and charge her extra! …

She is not but I would

331 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:24:03pm

The May 2003 testimony of Michelle Berge before the Kansas legislature is very compelling. In it she talks about 5-6 women she saw in similar circumstances.

332 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:24:13pm

re: #322 ShanghaiEd

Where are the numbers that tell this story? Do you have a link?

Start here, see the footnotes.

333 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:24:17pm

re: #167 albusteve

and O’Reily is helping carry the water

O’Reilly is carrying gasoline to pour on the fire.

334 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:25:01pm

*************************
Programming Note
*************************
It’s half time.. The Lakers are taking it to the Magic…But we shall see
Thoughts…
The vitamin commercials with Kobe are genius..who the hell is that ad agency?
Wilboun is the best commentary person on Earth..When he is done speaking..Magic just looks at him with the funniest look in his eyes..You want me to follow that shit? it’s pretty funny…
See you lizards at the end of the 3rd..
The World Championships..It doesn’t get any better

335 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:25:04pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

Oh- I’ll go out on a limb and say the two groups are likely one and the same.

Are you saying that IDer’s believe in killing people who perform abortions?

336 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:25:13pm

Liberally interpreting this Wiki there are about 12,000 abortions in Kansas every year.

337 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:25:28pm

re: #335 MandyManners

Are you saying that IDer’s believe in killing people who perform abortions?

I mean specifically the Dominionists.

338 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:25:41pm

re: #333 FurryOldGuyJeans

O’Reilly is carrying gasoline to pour on the fire.

Molotov O’Reily

339 rain of lead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:25:42pm

re: #326 JacksonTn

hey JT!
how you doin
just jumped into the thread
what did I miss?

340 loppyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:25:53pm

re: #327 The Shadow Do

Hoosier, forgive me for butting in here, but as much as I am no Lakers fan, having grown up in Colorado and presently in Dallas, I am going with the jury on this. They and only they heard the whole story. Kobe is a convicted philanderer and the woman’s story was not sufficiently credible. I don’t think there is any pure, driven snow anywhere near this whole tawdry episode.

Mostly I am enjoying Howard and Turkelou play. When Kobe puts in 40 will it be be enough?

This case never went to trial. The D.A.’s office dropped the charges because the accuser refused to testify against Bryant.

She sued him civilly and it was settled out of court.

341 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:26:48pm

re: #339 rain of lead

hey JT!
how you doin
just jumped into the thread
what did I miss?

RoL … a bunch of numbers … oh, and please stop the rain! … it is costing me money! …

342 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:26:52pm

re: #340 loppyd

This case never went to trial. The D.A.’s office dropped the charges because the accuser refused to testify against Bryant.

She sued him civilly and it was settled out of court.

yup…case closed and nobody knows what happened

343 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:26:54pm

re: #328 HAL2010

I know. I was thinking more of social implications and availablity.
It would be interesting to see where most abortions in the country take place.

You can get contraceptives in schools and in just about every public restroom in the country.

There are no cultural or social restrictions to contraceptive availability.

344 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:27:06pm

re: #336 hazzyday

Liberally interpreting this Wiki there are about 12,000 abortions in Kansas every year.

Hold on maybe I can’t read wiki’s right.

345 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:27:41pm

re: #340 loppyd

This case never went to trial. The D.A.’s office dropped the charges because the accuser refused to testify against Bryant.

She sued him civilly and it was settled out of court.

Your right. Money, money, money, …money!

346 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:27:56pm

re: #327 The Shadow Do

Hoosier, forgive me for butting in here, but as much as I am no Lakers fan, having grown up in Colorado and presently in Dallas, I am going with the jury on this. They and only they heard the whole story. Kobe is a convicted philanderer and the woman’s story was not sufficiently credible. I don’t think there is any pure, driven snow anywhere near this whole tawdry episode.

Mostly I am enjoying Howard and Turkelou play. When Kobe puts in 40 will it be be enough?

Hiya..See my #291.. I said I am a fair man..I will not judge Kobe…
Hope today finds you well

347 rain of lead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:27:59pm

re: #334 HoosierHoops

Hey Hoops,
have not had a chance to say…
I am sorry for the loss of your friend, ya’ll will meet again in a better place.

348 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:28:01pm

re: #342 albusteve

yup…case closed and nobody knows what happened

Sure we do

349 justdanny  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:28:04pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

Oh- I’ll go out on a limb and say the two groups are likely one and the same.

And that is why I am against them. Because they are against me.

Is there any place left for me in the Republican Party ? Is the core of the Republican Party pro killing ‘Tillers’ and anti evolution ?

350 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:28:32pm

re: #344 hazzyday

Why don’t you go to the CDC links posted above? They have the exact figures

351 HAL2010  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:28:47pm

And on that note, it is good night, and good luck.

352 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:29:04pm

re: #307 Buck

200 a year is silly. That would be 1 a day. Reports are that his clinic did an average of 10 a day. That would be 2000 a year.

Reports by whom? Are they official reports from Dr. Tiller’s clinic? CDC reports listing Kansas statistics? Or are they 2nd and 3rd hand hearsay you got from some email?

353 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:29:08pm

re: #344 hazzyday

Hold on maybe I can’t read wiki’s right.

10,642 in 2008 according to this pdf

354 loppyd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:29:10pm

re: #349 justdanny

And that is why I am against them. Because they are against me.

Is there any place left for me in the Republican Party ? Is the core of the Republican Party pro killing ‘Tillers’ and anti evolution ?

In a word or three? No Fucking Way.

355 rain of lead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:29:34pm

re: #341 JacksonTn

sorry, I control the rain of LEAD not the water kind

356 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:29:57pm

re: #346 HoosierHoops

Hiya..See my #291.. I said I am a fair man..I will not judge Kobe…
Hope today finds you well

what?…#264 seems pretty judgmental imo

357 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:30:13pm

re: #320 Thanos

He wasn’t - he was campaigning through them. There’s a difference. His case got tossed, law was upheld, right?

It is against the law to have sex with a minor and minors are getting abortions. The the law has been broken. So, no the law was not upheld. Obviously the citizens feel uncomfortable trying to find out who has impregnated children, so their representatives should change the law. Simply having the law so everyone feels peachy is odd.

358 RememberSekhmet?  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:30:19pm

re: #265 researchok

Understood.

To my mind, 250-300 abortions a year at $6,000 merits scrutiny.

In the US, 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.

In Sweden, 5.6% of abortions were carried out between 12 and 17 weeks, and 0.8% at or greater than 18 weeks- that is almost half of procedures performed here.

In Canada, 6.5% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 2.2% between 17 to 20 weeks, and 0.8% over 20 weeks. This sample included procedures carried out in hospitals and clinics- again, a little over half of the procedures performed here.

In New Zealand, 2.03% of induced abortions were done between weeks 16 to 19, and 0.56% were done over 20 weeks- less than half of the later term abortions performed here.

Late term abortions are all about a woman’s health, we are told.

Are American women so much less healthy than women elsewhere?

Keep one thing in mind:

Americans are far more likely to give a pregnancy a chance than run off for an abortion the moment a complication sets in. Many of those lower numbers of third-trimester abortions reflect the likelihood that the Canadian/Swede/Kiwi may have had that abortion well prior to the third trimester.

359 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:30:20pm

OT: The moderators over on Beck’s 912 site are starting to delete comments (and leaving notice thereof) now, on various Muslim related threads. Of course those comments have positive ding numbers…

That doesn’t mean serious wackiness is removed from their midst… E.g. here is a comment in the BHO Sez USA Is “One Of The Largest Muslim Countries In The World” (?) thread:

winecup 80p · 1 hour ago
Rahthrae: I have felt for quite awhile that psy ops is exactly what is being employed… against US citizens Ogabe, his administration and fawning media, are perpetrating mass psychological abuse upon the people of the United States of America. Ogabe is EXACTLY like an abusive spouse, where truth is told as lies; lies as truth; love is represented by derision; virtues are derided… the abused is left bewildered, not sure of what is real, not trusting intuition, common-sense… Tell me it ain’t so….

360 American Sabra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:30:23pm

The wikipedia indicates Tiller took his father’s practice in 1970. That means that come August, he would have been practicing 29 years. Which squeezes that 60,000 figure even more.

Why would some lie and say he practiced 35 years?

Why would they say 60,000 abortions insinutating they were all late term? Even though Army of God doesn’t distinguish really. They protest any and all clinics that perform abortions, even within the first trimester.

Even so, years, figures, numbers are important so we have an accurate picture of what we’re really looking at.

361 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:30:24pm

re: #348 Nevergiveup

Sure we do

links?

362 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:30:41pm

re: #347 rain of lead

Hey Hoops,
have not had a chance to say…
I am sorry for the loss of your friend, ya’ll will meet again in a better place.

Thank you my friend..You are very kind

363 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:31:11pm

OT: Hydroponic kumquat update
I thought my first kumquats from my early experiments were certainly dead. I threw one away but I was lazy and just pulled the plug on the other one and never got around to taking it out to the compost heap. I was getting ready to dispose of it this afternoon and it had new shoots! It’s alive!

364 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:32:18pm

re: #361 albusteve

links?

He was married, he just met her, they had sex. What else do I need to know?

365 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:32:35pm

re: #336 hazzyday

Liberally interpreting this Wiki there are about 12,000 abortions in Kansas every year.

2007 in Kansas 10,841 (for the entire state) all weeks, not just late term

366 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:33:07pm

re: #364 Nevergiveup

He was married, he just met her, they had sex. What else do I need to know?

nothing…that solves it

367 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:33:31pm

re: #337 Sharmuta

I mean specifically the Dominionists.

I’ve read a bit about them but I’ve never seen that put forth.

Here are some names from Army of God’s Wiki:

Clayton Waagner
Rev. Michael Bray, considered the “chaplain of the Army of God”.[citation needed]
Rev. Donald Spitz, head of Pro-Life Virginia and keeper of the AOG web site.
Shelley Shannon, shot Dr. George Tiller
Neal Horsley head of the Georgia-based Creator’s Rights Party.
Others loosely affiliated with, or in some support of, the “AOG” include:

Stephen Jordi, convicted of plotting clinic attacks.
John Brockhoeft
Father David Trosch
Dan Holman, Missionaries to the Preborn - Iowa [7]
Barry Kilbane
Bob Lokey
Matthew Trewhella, Missionaries to the Preborn - Wisconsin
Chuck Spingola of Unashamed & Associates, Newark, Ohio
Drew Heiss, Streetpreach.com
Stephen Wetzel (Missionaries to the Unborn)
Bill Whatcott, Canadian anti-abortion crusader
Eric Robert Rudolph, American anti-abortionist and convicted terrorist and murderer

SNIP

Are any Dominionists?

368 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:33:33pm

re: #359 freetoken

Beck is bringing a lot of crazy to the party. I’m really starting to think that things might get very bad for the GOP. Possibly even to the point where they have to dissolve the party and start over with a new name.

369 pegcity  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:33:48pm

anyone else get the impression that these weirdos would either end up being insane anti abortionists or crazy neo nazis?

370 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:33:59pm

re: #360 American Sabra

Did he work for his dad for 6 years?

…just wondering

371 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:33:59pm

re: #356 albusteve

what?…#264 seems pretty judgmental imo

oh crap..now I have to search where I’m judgmental?
A Laker? Kobe? No way! LOL
how are you tonight?

372 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:34:09pm

re: #366 albusteve

nothing…that solves it

But he is a pretty good basketball player.

373 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:34:12pm

re: #358 RememberSekhmet?

Keep one thing in mind:

Americans are far more likely to give a pregnancy a chance than run off for an abortion the moment a complication sets in. Many of those lower numbers of third-trimester abortions reflect the likelihood that the Canadian/Swede/Kiwi may have had that abortion well prior to the third trimester.

The numbers are clear- they specifically address the higher incidence of late term abortions here than elsewhere.

374 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:34:17pm

re: #366 albusteve

nothing…that solves it

albusteve … one thing we do know …. Mrs. Bryant got a really cool ring! …

/

375 BatGuano  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:34:24pm

re: #360 American Sabra

I have seen many figures tossed around and I have no idea where they come from. Perhaps anyone who has a number should provide a link to an official source. 35 years is the number I’ve been seeing:along with 60,000 abortions. I have no idea.

376 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:34:26pm

re: #360 American Sabra

The wikipedia indicates Tiller took his father’s practice in 1970. That means that come August, he would have been practicing 29 years. Which squeezes that 60,000 figure even more.

Why would some lie and say he practiced 35 years?


From 1970-2009 is 39 years. Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in 1974. 1974 - 2009 is 35 years.

I’m a math major, not that it was necessary to use my skillz to perform this arithmetic.

377 justdanny  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:35:24pm

I’m so screwed

378 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:35:26pm

re: #353 hazzyday

10,642 in 2008 according to this pdf

So that is 10,642 in ALL of Kansas, not just one doctor. And all the late term (17 week or later) is 835, 7.8% of total abortions performed in all of Kansas, not just by one doctor.

60,000 is one out and out lie.

379 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:35:27pm

re: #352 FurryOldGuyJeans

Reports by whom? Are they official reports from Dr. Tiller’s clinic? CDC reports listing Kansas statistics? Or are they 2nd and 3rd hand hearsay you got from some email?

OK…. It isn’t JUST about late term abortions. 60,000 abortions is very possible. However, lets say it is only 55,000… or only 40,000… is that make it ok?

How many late term abortions on viable fetuses does he have to perform?

Man, I can’t believe this crowd is so hung up on an exact number.

380 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:35:39pm

re: #371 HoosierHoops

oh crap..now I have to search where I’m judgmental?
A Laker? Kobe? No way! LOL
how are you tonight?

no you don’t…I did it for you…reread your post….
I’m fine

381 rain of lead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:35:53pm

money note
have been looking into refiing my mortgage, went to some sites on the web etc,
holy crap, mortgage co’s have been calling me nonstop for 2 days
I already have 3 offers lined up

pick the best, lock it in :)

382 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:36:02pm

re: #374 JacksonTn

albusteve … one thing we do know …. Mrs. Bryant got a really cool ring! …

/

My wife asked me if I cheated would she get one as big? I said sure, but it would be zirconium?

383 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:36:14pm

re: #353 hazzyday

10,642 in 2008 according to this pdf

First time procedure for most. Mostly young single women. 3 percent of them are late term, non are partial birth abortions. Late term abortions were mainly based on the physicians diagnosis.

In my observation of the Factor when i used to watch it, O’Reilly seldom got his local numbers correct. Often times he was in a hurry and would conflate stuff just to prove his point and let people sort it out later. I was hazard here to guess that his numbers are from all Kansas abortions and not just the doctor’s. Though that is how he is using them. This is pretty typical on Fox news.

384 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:36:15pm

re: #235 researchok

Planned Parenthood Faces Multimillion Dollar Fines (for falsification of records)

That was from the fall of 2007. Dr. Tiller was tried and aquitted of all charges in that case.

385 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:36:24pm

re: #377 justdanny

I’m so screwed

justdanny … when you post something like that … do we downding or upding? … what’s the matter? ..

386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:36:57pm

re: #363 Killgore Trout

No Way!

387 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:37:12pm

re: #374 JacksonTn

albusteve … one thing we do know …. Mrs. Bryant got a really cool ring! …

/

that’s the important thing I guess…whether Bryant is a rapist remains to be seen…maybe, maybe not

388 rain of lead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:37:25pm

re: #374 JacksonTn

albusteve … one thing we do know …. Mrs. Bryant got a really cool ring! …

/

yea, she has to put her arm in a sling when she wears it

389 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:37:50pm

Speaking of lousy comments: Hot Air…..
Geert Wilders’s party coming on strong in European Parliament election

This guy is beautiful. There might be hope for Europe yet.

I’m almost liking their chances of survival more than our own when I see this.

Buddahpundit on June 4, 2009 at 10:05 PM

….

Yay for ethnic nationalism!

Grow Fins on June 4, 2009 at 10:29 PM

390 American Sabra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:37:56pm

re: #370 slokat

Did he work for his dad for 6 years?

…just wondering

His parents, sister and brother-in-law were killed in an airplane crash. He was going to study dermatology but after hearing a woman die from an illegal abortion, he decided to take his father’s practice, who apparently did some abortions.

391 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:38:10pm

re: #244 kansas

Tiller remained under investigation by the board. Read it for yourself. [Link: www.ksbha.org…]

It’s a civil investigation after he was found innocent of the identical charges by a Kansas jury.

392 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:38:30pm

re: #386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Science!

393 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:38:32pm

From that same thread on Beck’s 912 site:

pandabeads 63p · 10 hours ago
Well I heard his speech in Cairo. I was crying very badly. Because Obama is not with Americans. He placates them for what reasons? We did nothing to get attacked on 911 and Obama has never said anything about the soldier killed by a Jihadist in America. I no longer view this apologizing President as my President. I vehemently disagree with him. He tacitly blames America for why we are hated and kooks want to hurt us. I can’t understand why anyone would stand back and allow him to get away with that. He also says that rogue nations have the right to produce peaceful nuclear energy. I am sorry is that an oxymoron. All Obama is interested in is adulation and his grandiose vision. Obama has moved up to a delluded level in narcissism. It won’t be long now when he will start to take all of our rights away and freedom of speech, right to bear arms. He will unleash his narcissistic rage on all in opposition. So because no one wants to go to the White house and riot we are all finished as a great nation. Doesn’t it bother anyone that Hugo Chavez says Obama makes him look to the right? Nothing more disturbing, is the complacency that this country is exhibiting now. The press never questions his motives, Americans ignore his outrageous power grabs that make us look more like Nazi Germany rather than that great shining city on the hill, Ronald Reagan so proudly touted. We will live in rubble’s and our standard of living will change in the next couple of years if people don’t start protesting and rioting in this country. Do you Americans care for your children? Do you care about leaving them with freedom? Because if you sit back and do nothing how will you explain to them that they are under tyranny and have to pay to represent a dictator. Your children will never have a life we enjoyed. I am so angry and saddened. I love my country and will fight to the death to save it from this soft tyranny. I love my children, I love God, and feel they deserve more out of us. We have become spoiled, superficial, and complacent. Stop letting progressives take our power away. Throw them out of office now! abolish this government. There does not have to be violence we can do this if we collaborate now! In 6 months it will be too late. I put my hand on the bible and make a commitment to taking our country back. I beg you desperately to take this country back. Thanks for listening.

[Emphasis added]

This same poster followed up to their comment in reply to another person:

pandabeads 63p · 9 hours ago
I agree but I have little children. He is preparing America for Muslim sharia law. He has the personality much like Hitler and I have studied people like him in my master’s program and know what to predict. You know not what is in store for us white Americans.


[emphasis added]

So there you have it, full on paranoid ODS and race-fear, all from one true Beckian. His posts got serious up-dings also.

The moderator did not remove those comments, but others. I can only imagine how bad the deleted ones must have been.

394 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:38:41pm

re: #375 BatGuano

I have seen many figures tossed around and I have no idea where they come from. Perhaps anyone who has a number should provide a link to an official source. 35 years is the number I’ve been seeing:along with 60,000 abortions. I have no idea.

My link above shows only 293 after week 22 in the whole state of Kansas, assuming that only one clinic did those + assuming this is the mean for 35 years would only yield 10,255 (and those are wild assumptions)

395 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:38:45pm

re: #387 albusteve

that’s the important thing I guess…whether Bryant is a rapist remains to be seen…maybe, maybe not

albusteve … yeah, that is something I never really spent much time wondering about … sex … two adults … only two people know what really happened …

396 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:38:55pm

re: #387 albusteve

that’s the important thing I guess…whether Bryant is a rapist remains to be seen…maybe, maybe not

I am trying to remember, but wasn’t the girl pissed because he didn’t say goodbye or something like that? And orlando is coming back

397 dapperdave  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:39:09pm

re: #349 justdanny

re: #377 justdanny

Dude your not screwed, just chill, no one’s out to get ya!
Just remember, just because your paranoid doesn’t mean no one is watching you./

398 American Sabra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:39:34pm

re: #376 Alouette

From 1970-2009 is 39 years. Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in 1974. 1974 - 2009 is 35 years.

I’m a math major, not that it was necessary to use my skillz to perform this arithmetic.

Oops it’s been a long day.

399 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:39:51pm

re: #389 Killgore Trout

It is getting increasingly difficult to differentiate HotAir/MMalkin/PJM from the Freepers/Beckians/Birchers.

400 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:40:00pm

re: #378 FurryOldGuyJeans

So that is 10,642 in ALL of Kansas, not just one doctor. And all the late term (17 week or later) is 835, 7.8% of total abortions performed in all of Kansas, not just by one doctor.

60,000 is one out and out lie.

Yes, I haven’t seen the O’Reilly note, but if he is saying Dr. Tiller performed 60,000 late term abortions in the last decade. Then yes Bill O’Reilly is talking through his butt. I am not surprised. But I was a huge fan at one time. The bullying bloviating eventually wore me out.

401 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:40:18pm

re: #382 Nevergiveup

George Burns had an affair. Gracie didn’t say anything, he thought she knew. Purchased a very expensive centerpiece for their dining room table. Later on, he said he heard her on the phone with a friend, said, “I wish George’d have another affair; I want a new centerpiece.”

Paraphrased from “Gracie, A Love Story”, George Burns.

402 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:40:28pm

re: #393 freetoken

You know not what is in store for us white Americans.


Yeesh! Dude, I got a really bad feeling about this one.
/Apocalypse Now reference

403 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:40:37pm

re: #388 rain of lead

yea, she has to put her arm in a sling when she wears it

I’m not used to posting this late…I guess stuff slides…
so slide with this mi amigos…

404 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:40:44pm

re: #379 Buck

We are hung up on the number 60,000 because that is the number some people are trying to say Dr. Tiller performed. 60,000 LATE TERM abortions. Yet the official statistics from Kansas give a MUCH lower number state-wide.

Telling a lie with statistics is still uttering a lie.

405 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:40:55pm

re: #325 kansas

Errors in usage

In situations where the subject’s status is previously determined by specific behaviors, the fallacy does not apply. For example, it is perfectly justified to say, “No true vegetarian eats meat,” because not eating meat is the single thing that precisely defines a person as a vegetarian.

In situations where the subject’s status is previously determined by specific behaviors, the fallacy does not apply.
Precisely. Please note the crusades, witch trials, inquisitions, forced conversions, and so on during the last 2000-odd years.
OTOH I suppose you could argue that, in general, modern Christianity in secular societies is no longer like that. Still ignores a whole lot of history though…

406 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:41:19pm

re: #399 freetoken

We have a very serious problem on our hands.

407 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:41:54pm

That went in? no string

408 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:41:58pm

re: #396 Nevergiveup

I am trying to remember, but wasn’t the girl pissed because he didn’t say goodbye or something like that? And orlando is coming back

don’t know…someone got fucked in the deal tho, that I’m sure

409 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:42:19pm

re: #400 hazzyday

Does that take a special microphone mounted in the chair?

/

410 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:42:39pm

Ah the ref is in the tank for the lakers

411 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:42:40pm

re: #404 FurryOldGuyJeans

We are hung up on the number 60,000 because that is the number some people are trying to say Dr. Tiller performed. 60,000 LATE TERM abortions. Yet the official statistics from Kansas give a MUCH lower number state-wide.

Telling a lie with statistics is still uttering a lie.

If that’s the case, that they were all supposed to late-term abortions, I agree, it’s utter bullshit.

412 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:42:41pm

re: #367 MandyManners

My first search, on Clayton Waagner, brought up ties to Dominionists. Let me keep looking.

413 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:42:49pm

re: #265 researchok

Understood.

To my mind, 250-300 abortions a year at $6,000 merits scrutiny.

In the US, 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.

In Sweden, 5.6% of abortions were carried out between 12 and 17 weeks, and 0.8% at or greater than 18 weeks- that is almost half of procedures performed here.

In Canada, 6.5% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 2.2% between 17 to 20 weeks, and 0.8% over 20 weeks. This sample included procedures carried out in hospitals and clinics- again, a little over half of the procedures performed here.

In New Zealand, 2.03% of induced abortions were done between weeks 16 to 19, and 0.56% were done over 20 weeks- less than half of the later term abortions performed here.

Late term abortions are all about a woman’s health, we are told.

Are American women so much less healthy than women elsewhere?

No, women there aren’t terrorized away from clinics until it’s a matter of living or dying for them there like they are here.

414 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:43:10pm

re: #408 albusteve

don’t know…someone got fucked in the deal tho, that I’m sure

Ain’t it always so

415 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:43:20pm
416 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:43:49pm

re: #410 Nevergiveup

Ah the ref is in the tank for the lakers

LOL! Other family member has it on in my background. 16 point lead….

417 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:44:07pm

if you can’t dig Grace Potter and the Nocturnals there is no hope for you….one hell of a gig these kids put out…from Burlington….get some!

418 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:44:14pm

re: #350 Thanos

Why don’t you go to the CDC links posted above? They have the exact figures

Sorry came in late. I am a case of TLDR. But i did go look.

419 rain of lead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:44:22pm

re: #403 albusteve

that was cool, thanks

420 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:44:34pm

re: #380 albusteve

no you don’t…I did it for you…reread your post….
I’m fine

Well Crap..The Lakers are playing pretty basketball and kicking the Magics ass inside/outside..It’s embarrassing how they are controlling the paint…Thiis may turn into a blow-out at home for LA

421 freetoken  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:45:05pm

re: #406 Killgore Trout

We have a very serious problem on our hands.

No kidding.

Just a few comments down from that “white” comment:

Docadams 60p · 7 hours ago
Yes Obama is very much like Hitler. Hitler was a half breed Jew who hated Jews. Obama is a half breed American who hates America.

I’m disgusted with Obama, not because of his skin color, but because of his attitude and total lack of moral character. He actually quoted, “The Holy Koran” and used the word “US” in the same sentence.

I believe yesterday Obama showed the Muslim World who Obama sides with and where his loyalites are, and they’re not with us.

The only question left to be answered is when do we take the Country back? (By force if necessary) The sad conclusion is that the only way we may ever get our Country back mey be through the use of force.

Yes, full on ODS with delusions of the use of force. And that was ok with the moderators, apparently.

422 traderjoe9  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:45:53pm

re: #1 BignJames

Not much different than islamists, IMO.

No, they’re very different.

423 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:45:56pm

re: #415 taxfreekiller

echo
echo
””
””
echo

wayyyy dowwwn insiiide

woman

youuuu neeed-eh

[bwang BWANG]

LOOVVVVVVVVE……

424 rain of lead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:46:10pm

re: #415 taxfreekiller

Hi tfk,
life good in your corner of the world?

425 RememberSekhmet?  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:46:20pm

re: #373 researchok

The numbers are clear- they specifically address the higher incidence of late term abortions here than elsewhere.

Yes, but if women in foreign countries got abortions when a complication was diagnosed, rather than giving it a month or two to see if it turned out OK, the abortion they got would not be a third-trimester abortion. The difference can be explained by cultural differences in reactions to the situation in which a woman might seek a later abortion. This is the same reasoning for people who piss and moan about the higher rate of infant mortality in the US—Americans are less likely to make a beeline for an abortion clinic in the event of a pregnancy complication, and we tend to use fertility drugs more often, leading to multiple births.

But even overseas there are stories like the one lady in Britain who got a third-trimester abortion because the baby had clubfoot she obviously farted around until the third trimester.

426 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:46:29pm

re: #410 Nevergiveup

Ah the ref is in the tank for the lakers

Nope…This isn’t a ref game..this is old fashion get your ass kicked on the court..period

427 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:46:39pm

re: #412 Sharmuta

My first search, on Clayton Waagner, brought up ties to Dominionists. Let me keep looking.

The only connection between him and Dominionism has been mentions of both in an article.

428 gearhead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:46:53pm

re: #409 slokat

Does that take a special microphone mounted in the chair?

/

It’s a special model called “the Olberman”.

429 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:47:13pm

re: #389 Killgore Trout

Yay for ethnic nationalism!

Grow Fins on June 4, 2009 at 10:29 PM

Good lord. Excuse me while I vomit.

430 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:47:23pm

re: #411 nomra

If that’s the case, that they were all supposed to late-term abortions, I agree, it’s utter bullshit.

A lie is being used to justify murdering someone in the foyer of a church.

431 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:47:28pm

Hey, Kilgore. You around?

432 JacksonTn  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:47:46pm

Where Do You Think You Are Going? … Dire Straits …

Good Night Ya’ll …

433 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:47:54pm

re: #427 MandyManners

The only connection between him and Dominionism has been mentions of both in an article.

Ummm…the only connections *I have found*.

434 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:48:15pm

re: #413 Salamantis

No, women there aren’t terrorized away from clinics until it’s a matter of living or dying for them there like they are here.

What are you talking about- the vast majority of women- hundreds of thousand every year- have abortions without incident or having to climb over protesters!

435 gearhead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:48:16pm

re: #423 Occasional Reader

wayyyy dowwwn insiiide

woman

youuuu neeed-eh

[bwang BWANG]

LOOVVVVVVVVE……

You’re playing Whole Lotta Love on a banjo?

436 rain of lead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:48:40pm

re: #432 JacksonTn

nite nite

437 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:48:51pm

re: #435 gearhead

Why the hell not. T’is a happy song!

438 BatGuano  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:48:52pm

re: #375 BatGuano

I have seen many figures tossed around and I have no idea where they come from. Perhaps anyone who has a number should provide a link to an official source. 35 years is the number I’ve been seeing:along with 60,000 abortions. I have no idea.

Found your link. Thank you.

439 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:49:09pm

re: #203 Charles

That Ann Coulter column may be the most disgusting thing she’s ever written. Please don’t post a link to it here.

While I have defended Ann before for needling democrats reliably. I seem to think she approves of types like Pat Buchanan or the Army of God. She just tries to write around them.

440 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:49:24pm

re: #435 gearhead

You’re playing Whole Lotta Love on a banjo?

Don’t be ridiculous!

It’s an electric jawharp.

441 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:49:36pm

re: #426 HoosierHoops

Nope…This isn’t a ref game..this is old fashion get your ass kicked on the court..period

I was just joking. i just want to see a good game and this is looking like a blow out

442 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:49:48pm

re: #304 kansas

What are you going to do when an ACORN census taker shows up and programs your front door coordinates into the government issued GPS?

What else can you do, but bow down and submit to the New World Order?

Game over, man! Game over! They’re GPSing us!

443 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:49:52pm

re: #379 Buck

OK…. It isn’t JUST about late term abortions. 60,000 abortions is very possible. However, lets say it is only 55,000… or only 40,000… is that make it ok?

How many late term abortions on viable fetuses does he have to perform?

Man, I can’t believe this crowd is so hung up on an exact number.

Exactly how many late term abortions do you think he performed on viable fetuses ?

444 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:50:04pm

Speaking of God needing(?) an army…

Kentucky Church Sponsors
“Open Carry” Religious Service

445 kansas  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:50:36pm

re: #442 Charles

What else can you do, but bow down and submit to the New World Order?

Game over, man! Game over! They’re GPSing us!

I was just messin with TFK.

446 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:51:11pm

Uh, Kobe is fast.
And, uh, good.

447 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:51:18pm

Mandy-

Reverend Donald Spitz of Pensacola, Florida, was/is involved with a Pro Life group in Virginia and with the Army of God. There was the occasion regarding the execution of Paul Hill, another Pentecostal minister who murdered a doctor and his body guard outside an abortion clinic. Hill was caught and convicted of the crimes. Spitz admitted that he was Paul Hill’s spiritual counselor. He said Hill died with the conviction he had done the Lord’s work. Spitz who approved of the murder said, “Someone else is going to handle the publishing of Paul Hill’s book On How to Assassinate.”

Spitz believed that Hill was completely justified in murdering the physician because, according to him, “twenty-six babies’ lives were saved by the killing.” When Copeland pointed out that the scheduled abortions for the morning of the murders would have simply been postponed to another day—and that the lives of the fetuses were only extended for a day or so, Spitz refused to accept the argument.

[Link: freethoughtperspective.net…]

448 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:51:41pm

re: #446 The Shadow Do

Uh, Kobe is fast.
And, uh, good.

He wasn’t so good last year vs Boston

449 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:51:53pm

re: #404 FurryOldGuyJeans

We are hung up on the number 60,000 because that is the number some people are trying to say Dr. Tiller performed. 60,000 LATE TERM abortions. Yet the official statistics from Kansas give a MUCH lower number state-wide.

Telling a lie with statistics is still uttering a lie.

Fine…pick a number, any number you are comfortable of LATE TERM ABORTIONS of Viable Fetuses that Tiller did over 35 years…..

As if ONE would be fine.

Please read the May 2003 testimony of Michelle Berge before the Kansas legislature.


I can despise what Tiller did, and still not wish to see him murdered.

450 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:51:55pm

re: #425 RememberSekhmet?

Yes, but if women in foreign countries got abortions when a complication was diagnosed, rather than giving it a month or two to see if it turned out OK, the abortion they got would not be a third-trimester abortion. The difference can be explained by cultural differences in reactions to the situation in which a woman might seek a later abortion. This is the same reasoning for people who piss and moan about the higher rate of infant mortality in the US—Americans are less likely to make a beeline for an abortion clinic in the event of a pregnancy complication, and we tend to use fertility drugs more often, leading to multiple births.

But even overseas there are stories like the one lady in Britain who got a third-trimester abortion because the baby had clubfoot she obviously farted around until the third trimester.

Complications are one thing- but in fact, too many women use abortion as contraception.

As for ‘one lady in Britain’, gimme a break. The numbers tell the story.

There are just too many 3rd term abortions and the statistical difference is significant

451 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:52:02pm

But jack looks good

452 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:52:28pm

re: #448 Nevergiveup

He wasn’t so good last year vs Boston

Boston does that to people…oh, you mean NBA?

453 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:52:31pm

re: #421 freetoken

The right wing blogosphere is in serious trouble indeed. And nobody is taking responsibility for stopping it.

454 RememberSekhmet?  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:52:35pm

re: #429 Charles

Grow Fins is a known troll on HotAir.

455 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:54:05pm

re: #443 avanti

Exactly how many late term abortions do you think he performed on viable fetuses ?

Going with 2 years of official Kansas statistics posted here showing less than 1,000 per year for all of Kansas 17 weeks or later, Dr. Tiller performed a whole hell of a lot less 60,000 during his time.

And so a lie is being used to justify his being murdered.

456 gearhead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:54:11pm

re: #440 Occasional Reader

Don’t be ridiculous!

It’s an electric jawharp.

Forgive me. My ears are fatigued from an evening of Disney Channel…

Hey, can you do the solo from Hearbreaker/Living Loving Maid on that thing?

457 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:54:37pm

Y’all have fun. Hope the open thread has a good quote tonight. Maybe a song by Louis Prima or sumthin…

458 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:54:39pm

re: #448 Nevergiveup

He wasn’t so good last year vs Boston

True that. What the heck happened to the Celts?

459 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:54:46pm

Excellent Towercam sunset, with a line of soft clouds, look now for a nature break from all this craziness.

San Gabriel Mountains of California, Pacific time zone.

Courtesy of the astronomers of UCLA.

460 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:54:52pm

re: #441 Nevergiveup

I was just joking. i just want to see a good game and this is looking like a blow out

Laakers are destroying the Magic..Up by 22..
I want to know who the cute blonde is sitting next to Jack Nickelson is..She can’t be more than 24 and she is being very sweet to Jack..
How much do those Tiks cost? Dang that Jack! LOL

461 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:55:03pm

re: #447 Sharmuta

Mandy-


[Link: freethoughtperspective.net…]

While I cannot argue with the facts I read in that and elsewhere, it is a site full of BDS.

462 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:55:19pm

re: #433 MandyManners

One group wants to replace the rule of law with the Bible. The other group wants to replace the rule of law with the Bible. They might be connected. Maybe not. I’m really not in the mood to argue about it.

463 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:55:22pm

re: #449 Buck

The number, which is not supported by official statistics released by the state, are being used by some people to justify the man’s murder.

464 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:55:35pm

re: #460 HoosierHoops

Laakers are destroying the Magic..Up by 22..
I want to know who the cute blonde is sitting next to Jack Nickelson is..She can’t be more than 24 and she is being very sweet to Jack..
How much do those Tiks cost? Dang that Jack! LOL

that’s Kobe’s squeeze for tonight

465 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:55:37pm

Berlusconi lashes out at Murdoch

[Link: www.ft.com…]

This should be fun. A pissing match between 2 of the riches guys in the world?

466 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:55:37pm

re: #454 RememberSekhmet?

Grow Fins is a known troll on HotAir.

Well, thanks for letting me know.

But to be honest, I’m having a hard time telling the difference these days.

467 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:55:46pm

re: #453 Charles

I think it is in the center that sanity resides now.

468 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:55:54pm

re: #458 The Shadow Do

True that. What the heck happened to the Celts?

Injuries

469 researchok  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:56:09pm

re: #453 Charles

The right wing blogosphere is in serious trouble indeed. And nobody is taking responsibility for stopping it.

It is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Must be for the ad revenue, whatever it takes to bump the numbers.

So much for right wing integrity.

470 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:56:37pm

re: #456 gearhead

Hey, can you do the solo from Hearbreaker/Living Loving Maid on that thing?

Well, it might be a sin. But I’ll take that bet; you’re gonna regret. ‘Cause I’m the best that’s ever been.

471 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:57:28pm

re: #443 avanti

Exactly how many late term abortions do you think he performed on viable fetuses ?

I can’t answer that, but if you go to Kansas Health Department they report the responses on the back of the form. I was surprised at how many were reported as viable (192 out of 323) in 2008 preliminary report (page 8). And at the reasons given for the procedure.

472 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:57:34pm

re: #462 Sharmuta

One group wants to replace the rule of law with the Bible. The other group wants to replace the rule of law with the Bible. They might be connected. Maybe not. I’m really not in the mood to argue about it.

Connected or not, the same group or not, I won’t allow their theocracy.

That is the only argument I will offer, NO theocracy.

473 MandyManners  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:58:04pm

re: #462 Sharmuta

One group wants to replace the rule of law with the Bible. The other group wants to replace the rule of law with the Bible. They might be connected. Maybe not. I’m really not in the mood to argue about it.

I’m sure that more of the AoG folks are Dominionists than there are Dominionists that approve of what Roeder did but, undoubtedly there are connections.

474 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:58:14pm

re: #459 Ojoe

Magnificent, thank you!

475 gearhead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:59:18pm

re: #470 Occasional Reader

Well, it might be a sin. But I’ll take that bet; you’re gonna regret. ‘Cause I’m the best that’s ever been.

A thousand updings, Mr. Daniels.

476 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:59:24pm

re: #472 FurryOldGuyJeans

Connected or not, the same group or not, I won’t allow their theocracy.

That is the only argument I will offer, NO theocracy.

it’s coming tho….separation of church and state is starting to blur already

477 RememberSekhmet?  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:59:34pm

re: #453 Charles

The right wing blogosphere is in serious trouble indeed. And nobody is taking responsibility for stopping it.

Agreed. One thing I’d love to say is that maaaaybe the RNC somewhat knows what it’s doing. A big part of Bush’s win in 2004 came from the Left going completely chiropteran fecal and throwing up every tinfoil hat piece of bovine scatology at W they could scrape off a latrine wall—-to the point where all the criticism looked ridiculous, and was not taken seriously.

We don’t want the same happening in 2012. And given how much 0bama and the Left overpromised, those approval numbers can only go down once the wealthier liberals lose their jobs, and the poor liberals didn’t get their skittle-farting unicorns. Then you go in for the kill, and punch through the media blackout with effective blows.

478 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 7:59:38pm

re: #464 albusteve

that’s Kobe’s squeeze for tonight

She must be a movie star..You are seating next to Jack on the floor for the NBA Championship and she is smoking hot..
I am so googling her in the morning
/My luck OR will say she is Brazilian…:)

479 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:00:41pm

re: #459 Ojoe

Trying to say that LA looks good when you can’t see it?

//

480 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:00:46pm

quoting Charlie Daniels gets a thousand updings?….hahaha!

481 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:01:19pm

re: #459 Ojoe

Excellent Towercam sunset, with a line of soft clouds, look now for a nature break from all this craziness.

San Gabriel Mountains of California, Pacific time zone.

Courtesy of the astronomers of UCLA.

Gorgeous. What a rush. BTW, I enjoy your nature breaks, ojoe.

482 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:01:27pm

re: #459 Ojoe

My new wallpaper. Replaces the last one I got from you.

483 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:01:27pm

re: #434 researchok

What are you talking about- the vast majority of women- hundreds of thousand every year- have abortions without incident or having to climb over protesters!

How many abortion clinics have you dropped by lately on procedure day?

484 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:01:38pm

re: #431 Noam Sayin’

Hey, Kilgore. You around?

I’m not round so much since I lost some weight. I’m getting ready to grill a chop and start my Happy Lucky All Week Pork Chop Undon Noodle Party (my recipe submission for the next LGF cookbook).
What’s up?

485 drogheda  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:01:47pm

re: #454 RememberSekhmet?

Grow Fins is a known troll on HotAir.

Grow Fins is a troll? From checking out some of his comments at Hot Air it would seem he’s more of a liberal/left leaning person who is going against the grain at Hot Air.

The “Yay for ethnic nationalism!” quote from Kilgore Trout’s #389 would appear to be snark on Grow Fins’ part.

486 SecondComing  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:01:52pm

I’ve seen this before. The most disturbing part to me was that guy saying he gave himself a circumcision in prison with a pocketknife!

487 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:01:55pm

re: #474 Floral Giraffe

You are welcome. The Towercam is my default web opening page & I keep an eye on it for the lizards.

The telescope dome houses the 100 inch reflector from which Hubble & Humason discovered the expansion of the universe, a really big fact.

BBL

488 Buck  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:02:03pm

re: #463 FurryOldGuyJeans

The number, which is not supported by official statistics released by the state, are being used by some people to justify the man’s murder.

No…..that is a stretch. It is being used to show how disgusting he was. However if it isn’t 60,000 that doesn’t make him a saint. AND that is what some people on the left are trying to paint him as.

489 gearhead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:02:07pm

re: #480 albusteve

quoting Charlie Daniels gets a thousand updings?….hahaha!

I’m easily amused.

490 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:02:37pm

Well I’m half way through these videos These people are scary.

491 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:03:08pm

re: #466 Charles

I can’t tell the difference either. I thought it might be sarcasm but I can’t tell anymore. Even around here I have to encourage people to use sarc tags to avoid confusion.

492 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:03:16pm

re: #481 ShanghaiEd

re: #481 ShanghaiEd

and all…

We need sanity & beauty these days.


Well really BBL.

493 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:03:20pm

re: #489 gearhead

I’m easily amused.

sorry…just blurted out…don’t mean nothin

494 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:03:21pm

re: #484 Killgore Trout


What’s up?

Wondering if you were familiar with a Phillip Glass piece. Can’t remember the name, but he made it with a tape loop of someone saying, “…come out to show them…”

Tried googling, but couldn’t find anything from work.

495 drogheda  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:04:36pm

re: #491 Killgore Trout

Sarcasm doesn’t always carry over well. And some people can’t detect it. So yes, tags do make quite the difference.

496 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:05:18pm

re: #494 Noam Sayin’

Anyone, for that matter. If you know…

Just thought Kilgore would.

497 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:05:30pm

re: #490 Pvt Bin Jammin

Well I’m half way through these videos These people are scary.

indeed, but just keep telling yourself they are not true Christians, because true Christians don’t kill people…except for Alvin York and a few others

498 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:06:18pm

re: #494 Noam Sayin’

Out of my league, I can’t stand Phillip Glass. I never got past his 42 Seconds (or whatever the fuck it was called). I had to study him in grad school but I purged those brain cells at the earliest possibility.

499 gearhead  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:06:59pm

re: #493 albusteve

sorry…just blurted out…don’t mean nothin

No harm done. We’re all lizards here.

500 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:07:09pm

re: #484 Killgore Trout

Got two pork chops in the oven (covered with a home made toasted herb/spice crust that I usually reserve for eight hour shoulder roasts) plus a rice & tomato stuffed bell pepper…

501 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:07:26pm

re: #471 slokat

I can’t answer that, but if you go to Kansas Health Department they report the responses on the back of the form. I was surprised at how many were reported as viable (192 out of 323) in 2008 preliminary report (page 8). And at the reasons given for the procedure.

Couples have a right to decide to save the mother rather than the baby, or rather than leaving her paralyzed, brain damaged, or in a coma.

502 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:07:41pm

re: #455 FurryOldGuyJeans

Going with 2 years of official Kansas statistics posted here showing less than 1,000 per year for all of Kansas 17 weeks or later, Dr. Tiller performed a whole hell of a lot less 60,000 during his time.

And so a lie is being used to justify his being murdered.

BTW, for all the talk about partial birth abortions, there were zero in Kansas in the 2008 report. The pro lifers in Kansas spent millions gathering data to get Tiller, but a hate filled murderer finally got him.

503 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:08:39pm

re: #498 Killgore Trout

Don’t blame you.

504 albusteve  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:08:52pm

my grilled Beef-O-Roni BBQ supper is just killer…where’s reine?…I could be famous

505 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:09:42pm

re: #488 Buck

No…..that is a stretch. It is being used to show how disgusting he was. However if it isn’t 60,000 that doesn’t make him a saint. AND that is what some people on the left are trying to paint him as.

He’s a saint to the women who would have died without the procedures he performed on them.

506 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:11:52pm

re: #494 Noam Sayin’

My bad.

Steve Reich

Come out to Show them.

Always thought that was Phillip Glass, for some reason.

507 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:13:06pm

re: #501 Salamantis

Couples have a right to decide to save the mother rather than the baby, or rather than leaving her paralyzed, brain damaged, or in a coma.

The reasons don’t support that comment… (0) medical emergencies.

Just reading and accurately reporting what is there on the form.

508 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:13:58pm

re: #505 Salamantis

He’s a saint to the women who would have died without the procedures he performed on them.

He’s also a martyr to them, too, I’ll wager, because he was murdered in church for performing the procedures that saved their lives, and he knew the risk to his life was there if he helped them, but he disregarded his own safety, and helped them anyway.

509 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:15:06pm

re: #507 slokat

The reasons don’t support that comment… (0) medical emergencies.

Just reading and accurately reporting what is there on the form.

All 192 you are referring to refer to serious physical conditions.

510 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:16:29pm

re: #488 Buck

No…..that is a stretch. It is being used to show how disgusting he was. However if it isn’t 60,000 that doesn’t make him a saint. AND that is what some people on the left are trying to paint him as.

Lets cut to the chase, to the, pro choicers, he was a doctor performing a legal procedure for women in need.

To religious, moderate pro lifers, he
was a sinner that they hoped they could stop legally.

To the nut cases, he was Tiller the baby killer and got what he deserved.

Few is anyone is pro abortion, nor elevate a abortion doctor to a sainthood.

To me, from what I read, Teller was a compassionate man performing a procedure that I’d rather not see any woman have to chose in a perfect world.

511 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:17:56pm

re: #413 Salamantis

No, women there aren’t terrorized away from clinics until it’s a matter of living or dying for them there like they are here.

That’s rubbish. I don’t know about Sweden, but I do know for a fact that there are anti-abortion protesters in Canada and NZ. There’s also been shootings and firebombings of clinics in Canada. I think you’ll need a less facile reason for the discrepancy.

512 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:20:01pm

re: #61 gruvin

Normally I don’t reply to posts this old but in this case I’m going to make an exception. The actions of Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad (the Arkansas recruiting station shooter) and Scott Roeder are in fact morally equivalent: They were both murders committed by religious fanatics in furtherance of their ideology.

513 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:20:40pm

re: #509 Salamantis

All 192 you are referring to refer to serious physical conditions.

A definition of that phrase would be helpful.

Not your suppositions, but what Kansas Health Department uses as their definition.

514 avanti  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:20:46pm

re: #501 Salamantis

Couples have a right to decide to save the mother rather than the baby, or rather than leaving her paralyzed, brain damaged, or in a coma.

In the name of fairness to the pro life folks, the life of the mother is rarely a reason for a late term abortion. For example, a dead fetus would typically be quietly dealt with at a local hospital without a lot of checks and balances if it did not naturally miscarry.

515 Gus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:21:52pm

Army of God: Cult of Psychopathic Criminals

516 Tully  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:22:06pm

re: #126 researchok

Without commenting on the pro life/pro choice issues it is a matter of fact that late 3rd term abortions are rarely a medical necessity.

Another anti-abortion rhetorical canard. “Necessity” is a subjective question-begging term. It’s not a “medical necessity” to force a woman to carry a severely deformed fetus, even a dead one, until a natural miscarriage occurs. But aborting same reduces the odds of maternal death or permanent injury by about 90%. So for the vast majority of late-term abortions, taking away that choice has a resulting increase in maternal death and permanent injuries as a statistically certain outcome. Essentially those who would completely outlaw late-term abortions are subsitituting their judgment of what “odds” of death and/or permanent injury are appropriate for the patient to have to face for the judgement of the patient and their physician, by taking away the safer option.

Like having a casino rule where if your five-card poker hand goes south on you, you’re not allowed to fold but must play until the showdown, matching all bets and raises, even though your draws have given you a 7-2 unsuited low. No-peekie played with lives.

517 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:24:56pm

re: #511 nomra

You’re new here so let me give you some advice: Don’t get into a fact war with Salamantis. Only Charles himself has better research at his disposal. Sal is the best there is here when it comes to facts. You mock him at your peril.

518 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:27:12pm

re: #511 nomra

That’s rubbish. I don’t know about Sweden, but I do know for a fact that there are anti-abortion protesters in Canada and NZ. There’s also been shootings and firebombings of clinics in Canada. I think you’ll need a less facile reason for the discrepancy.

FACILE?

Two abortion doctors and a clinic excort were gunned down in my hometown, and another escort wounded by gunfire. Almost a dozen clinic arsons hand firebombings have occurred here. Those vicious bastards beat the women over the head and shoulders with their sick fucking placards whenever they tried to enter the clinics. I know, because when I drove by a clinic and saw that disgusting sight, I volunteerd as a clinic escort and shielded them with my body while absorbing those blows on my own head and shoulders, and I was only one of many clinic escorts to do so. And for my trying to help these women, those twisted fuckwads called in sometimes hundreds of death threats to me every day for weeks on end, tailed me wherever I went, surveilled my home, sabotaged my car, and murdered my family cat. And they still got the womens’ car tag numbers, and tracked them down, and harrassed them at home and at work, and even their kids at school.

Don’t you EVER pretend to tell me that it has been fucking easy for women seeking abortions here!

519 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:31:04pm

Just check how many of these attacks were perpetrated in the US, and how few were perpetrated everywhere else on this planet combined:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

520 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:34:00pm

re: #518 Salamantis

Good man.

521 hazzyday  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:34:04pm

re: #491 Killgore Trout

I can’t tell the difference either. I thought it might be sarcasm but I can’t tell anymore. Even around here I have to encourage people to use sarc tags to avoid confusion.

I’m being sarcastic… unless you thought I wasn’t.

522 slokat  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:34:54pm

re: #514 avanti

Sal and I were dicussing this last night also…

My posts are just investigating numbers and relaying things I never knew, as I find them…

My position on abortion is somewhere between pro choice & pro life.

(one of the few topics where I am a moderate)

523 Tully  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:36:46pm

re: #471 slokat

I was surprised at how many were reported as viable (192 out of 323) in 2008 preliminary report (page 8). And at the reasons given for the procedure.

As I said in anothr thread, under Kansas law the definiton of “non-viable” is “already dead.” The definition of “viable” is “not dead yet, and could potentially be kept alive for some minimal length of time outside the womb using advanced artificial life support methods.”

The anti-abortionists routinely conflate “viable” in the reporting statistics with “healthy normal fetus.” For the vast majority of late-term abortions, that’s simply not true. For the vast majority of first-term abortions, it IS true. But it’s a hell of a lot tougher to whip up outrage over those (among otherthings, the public is against banning htem) and they’re completely constitutionally protected under Roe v. Wade. So instead the AA’s misrepresent the third-trimester procedures to whip up the faithful.

524 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:37:03pm

re: #518 Salamantis

FACILE?

Two abortion doctors and a clinic excort were gunned down in my hometown, and another escort wounded by gunfire. Almost a dozen clinic arsons hand firebombings have occurred here. Those vicious bastards beat the women over the head and shoulders with their sick fucking placards whenever they tried to enter the clinics. I know, because when I drove by a clinic and saw that disgusting sight, I volunteerd as a clinic escort and shielded them with my body while absorbing those blows on my own head and shoulders, and I was only one of many clinic escorts to do so. And for my trying to help these women, those twisted fuckwads called in sometimes hundreds of death threats to me every day for weeks on end, tailed me wherever I went, surveilled my home, sabotaged my car, and murdered my family cat. And they still got the womens’ car tag numbers, and tracked them down, and harrassed them at home and at work, and even their kids at school.

Don’t you EVER pretend to tell me that it has been fucking easy for women seeking abortions here!

Typical. Someone who hasn’t ever seen real hatred poo-poos its virulence. I might have done that, until I walked through an apartment that had been torched by a man who broke in, beat his ex-girlfriend up, chained her to the bed, and then started the fire expressly to kill her horribly (and the fire did kill her). Sal’s seen even worse. Believe him, the hate he describes is real.

525 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:45:33pm

re: #501 Salamantis

Couples have a right to decide to save the mother rather than the baby, or rather than leaving her paralyzed, brain damaged, or in a coma.

From the source:

Prevent patient’s death: 0, 0, 0
Prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function: 4, 188, 192

There were zero late term abortions in order to save the woman’s life. ALL of the late-term abortions on VIABLE fetuses were justified on the “impairment of a major bodily function” grounds. This is where it gets ambiguous. Is it OK to kill what is otherwise a premature baby for that reason? In some cases I suppose so, in other’s, maybe not.
The point is, it’s not so cut and dried as you’d like to make out.

526 SecondComing  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:46:54pm

oh btw Eric Rudolph’s homepage is on the Army of God website. He describes himself as an “anti-abortion” prisoner. Blow me.

527 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:47:03pm

re: #525 nomra

There were zero late term abortions in order to save the woman’s life. ALL of the late-term abortions on VIABLE fetuses were justified on the “impairment of a major bodily function” grounds. This is where it gets ambiguous. Is it OK to kill what is otherwise a premature baby for that reason? In some cases I suppose so, in other’s, maybe not.
The point is, it’s not so cut and dried as you’d like to make out.

What part of “impairment of a major bodily function’ do you not understand?

528 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:49:21pm

re: #527 Salamantis

What part of “impairment of a major bodily function’ do you not understand?

In many cases, we’re talking about pregnancy-caused or exacerbated diabetes, with dangers such as blindness or comprehensive renal failure.

529 Tully  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:52:11pm

re: #518 Salamantis

Oh, dude, if you’re ever in my neck of the woods, the beer is on me. Been there, done that. Going to Tiller’s funeral this weekend. That’s sure to be almost as much grief as clinic escort.

As much as I bitch about media bias, I was thankful that none of them bothered to mention or show the Phelper’s visit to last Sunday’s vigil. I’m sure I’ll see them out in force again Saturday.

530 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:53:29pm

I couldn’t get past the part where he says “information super highway”

531 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:54:23pm

re: #525 nomra

So you are still here trying to justify murder, terrorism, clinic bombiings. I think I know everything I need to about you. The subject of the thread is the Christian extremists, not Dr. Tiller.

532 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:57:45pm

re: #529 Tully

Oh, dude, if you’re ever in my neck of the woods, the beer is on me. Been there, done that. Going to Tiller’s funeral this weekend. That’s sure to be almost as much grief as clinic escort.

As much as I bitch about media bias, I was thankful that none of them bothered to mention or show the Phelper’s visit to last Sunday’s vigil. I’m sure I’ll see them out in force again Saturday.

Free speech applies to them to. However I wonder if, purely in the name of preventing them from overheating of course, it might be possible to turn a few fire hoses on the Phelps Klan.

(the misspelling of ‘clan’ was deliberate)

533 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 8:57:52pm

re: #516 Tully


Another anti-abortion rhetorical canard. “Necessity” is a subjective question-begging term. It’s not a “medical necessity” to force a woman to carry a severely deformed fetus, even a dead one, until a natural miscarriage occurs. But aborting same reduces the odds of maternal death or permanent injury by about 90%. So for the vast majority of late-term abortions, taking away that choice has a resulting increase in maternal death and permanent injuries as a statistically certain outcome. Essentially those who would completely outlaw late-term abortions are subsitituting their judgment of what “odds” of death and/or permanent injury are appropriate for the patient to have to face for the judgement of the patient and their physician, by taking away the safer option.

Like having a casino rule where if your five-card poker hand goes south on you, you’re not allowed to fold but must play until the showdown, matching all bets and raises, even though your draws have given you a 7-2 unsuited low. No-peekie played with lives.

That’s a good point but only if we assume that the fetus/baby has no right to life. Think about an equivalent situation where one person betters their medical odds against death or injury by killing someone else.

Not really tenable, is it?

534 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:01:50pm

re: #533 nomra

That’s a good point but only if we assume that the fetus/baby has no right to life. Think about an equivalent situation where one person betters their medical odds against death or injury by killing someone else.

Not really tenable, is it?

So let me get this straight. You would step in between a woman and her doctor, and dictate to the woman that she MUST undergo the birth process, even when the doctor’s opinion is that she risks severe injury or death by doing so?

What gives you the right to decide these things for women you don’t know? Why is your opinion worth more than that of a licensed doctor’s?

And more to the point: how can you justify being so mindlessly cruel?

535 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:02:34pm

These fanatical fundamentalist antiabortion zealots went through every single one of Dr. Tiller’s procedures, trying to find even ONE that they could use to shut him down, and he was fully exonerated in a jury trial on the only one that they could find that they could try to make a case about. Then one of them cold-bloodedly and premeditatedly murdered him in his own church with his wife present.

It’s as if a ten year NBA player had all of his game tapes studied frame by frame to find a single uncalled possible foul or single counted shot when his heel might have been touching the out of bounds line, to try to ban him from the league. And failing that, they kill him. Because he’s not on their team, and for them, winning is the ONLY thing. No matter how it’s done.

536 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:03:21pm

re: #528 Salamantis

In many cases, we’re talking about pregnancy-caused or exacerbated diabetes, with dangers such as blindness or comprehensive renal failure.

Lots of people have diabetes and we do have insulin. I’m really not sure that’s a good enough reason to kill an otherwise healthy baby.

537 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:04:11pm

Wow.

538 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:06:19pm

re: #533 nomra

That’s a good point but only if we assume that the fetus/baby has no right to life. Think about an equivalent situation where one person betters their medical odds against death or injury by killing someone else.

Not really tenable, is it?

You are in error, sir. The fetus has a right to life, but so does the mother. If there are legitimate grounds to fear the mother may suffer renal failure (which can kill), then even I must concede the mother has the right to abort the baby to save herself. She should not have to carry a baby to term if doing so poses a risk of death. I will not judge a decision to abort in such cases, I will leave that judgment up to God.

539 Tully  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:06:34pm

re: #532 Dark_Falcon

Yep, free speech applies to them to. And as long as their activities are restricted to speech, I sure won’t try to stop them. But I would certainly stand in front of them (and have, along with PGR people) holding up my own sign or a large American flag so that the nourners don’t have to see them. ‘Cause I have free speech rights too. :-) And the First doesn’t give them any right to media coverage.

540 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:07:45pm

re: #533 nomra

That’s a good point but only if we assume that the fetus/baby has no right to life. Think about an equivalent situation where one person betters their medical odds against death or injury by killing someone else.

Not really tenable, is it?

You would mandate a substantial risk of death or serious permanent injury - to quote: substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function - to a woman in order to avoid the abortion of a fetus.

That’s so morally bankrupt that if ethics were dollars even Bill Gates couldn’t bail you out.

541 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:09:00pm

re: #533 nomra

Was it “tenable” for the army of god to gun down an innocent driver? A doctor in front of his wife? For them to shoot his wife?

542 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:09:07pm

re: #536 nomra

Lots of people have diabetes and we do have insulin. I’m really not sure that’s a good enough reason to kill an otherwise healthy baby.

Comprehensive renal failure isn’t a matter of insulin; it’s a matter of dialysis. If you survive.

543 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:13:19pm

re: #525 nomra

And your medical expertise for making just a sweeping judgment is?

544 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:16:47pm

re: #534 Charles

So let me get this straight. You would step in between a woman and her doctor, and dictate to the woman that she MUST undergo the birth process, even when the doctor’s opinion is that she risks severe injury or death by doing so?

What gives you the right to decide these things for women you don’t know? Why is your opinion worth more than that of a licensed doctor’s?

And more to the point: how can you justify being so mindlessly cruel?

You’re framing the question incorrectly (or correctly if you want to score a debating point). I agree it’s a terrible situation, the problem is determining when the unborn child has “rights” like everyone else. If that’s the case, the fetus/baby’s rights have to to be balanced against that of the mothers.

The question then becomes were you think the line between abortion and infanticide is.

545 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:18:52pm

re: #544 nomra

You’re framing the question incorrectly (or correctly if you want to score a debating point). I agree it’s a terrible situation, the problem is determining when the unborn child has “rights” like everyone else. If that’s the case, the fetus/baby’s rights have to to be balanced against that of the mothers.

The question then becomes were you think the line between abortion and infanticide is.

Sal actually has a fairly good model law for determining such cases. I’m going to ask him to post that to help answer your question.

546 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:19:44pm

re: #541 Thanos

Was it “tenable” for the army of god to gun down an innocent driver? A doctor in front of his wife? For them to shoot his wife?

No it wasn’t. Don’t put up straw-men please.

547 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:20:21pm

re: #544 nomra

You’re framing the question incorrectly (or correctly if you want to score a debating point). I agree it’s a terrible situation, the problem is determining when the unborn child has “rights” like everyone else. If that’s the case, the fetus/baby’s rights have to to be balanced against that of the mothers.

The question then becomes were you think the line between abortion and infanticide is.

The line is drawn around the woman who makes the choice, and the doctor who gives her the best advice he/she can. That line keeps people like you out of the decision-making process, no matter how much you might like to dictate the rules.

548 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:20:42pm

re: #544 nomra

You’re framing the question incorrectly (or correctly if you want to score a debating point). I agree it’s a terrible situation, the problem is determining when the unborn child has “rights” like everyone else. If that’s the case, the fetus/baby’s rights have to to be balanced against that of the mothers.

The question then becomes were you think the line between abortion and infanticide is.

The rights of the born woman to live, and to live the rest of her life free from severe incapacitation, must of necessity take moral precedence in any just or sane universe.

Which, apparently, does not include whatever universe you’re in.

549 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:20:50pm

re: #544 nomra

And under the law you don’t have the right to determine that for other women, because from what we’ve seen so far you would get it wrong.

Is it “tenable” for Bill O’Reilly to lie to an audience of millions, and then come back and lie more?

Is it “tenable” for abortion extremists to burn clinics and put out wanted posters for doctors?

550 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:21:10pm

re: #544 nomra

So are you a board certified doctor, or a bar association attorney? You speak so much bullshit as if you have any documentable expertise on the subject at hand.

551 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:21:56pm

re: #546 nomra

Don’t put spend half a thread furthering lies. I detest them.

552 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:22:34pm

re: #542 Salamantis

Comprehensive renal failure isn’t a matter of insulin; it’s a matter of dialysis. If you survive.

Then maybe it’s justifiable in that case. Like I said in the first place, “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” is ambiguous and can cover reasonable, and not so reasonable reasons.

553 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:24:00pm

re: #552 nomra

Thank g-d people don’t have to rely on your expertise for medical problems.

554 Gus  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:24:48pm

The majority of people that fell victim to these anti-abortion terrorists (many that were “inspired” by the Army of God) weren’t even late term providers or physicians. It includes guards and receptionists. The arson, vandalism, and assault on individuals. They will stop at nothing to attain their terroristic goals.

This activity is wider than represented by Dr. George Tiller’s death. The target from the terrorist groups, cells, and lone wolves includes every aspect of the abortion provider medical community. Many others have died before Dr. Tiller and as long as groups like the Army of God, Randall Terry, and other associated cell groups are allowed to continue their veiled terrorist activity many more are sure to follow.

555 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:25:12pm

re: #546 nomra

Also, it’s not a straw man. You maybe missed the part where someone in Army of god decided it was ok for him to take an innocent life and attempt to take another, that besides the doctor’s who was also innocent under the law.

556 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:25:44pm

re: #549 Thanos

And under the law you don’t have the right to determine that for other women, because from what we’ve seen so far you would get it wrong.

Is it “tenable” for Bill O’Reilly to lie to an audience of millions, and then come back and lie more?

Is it “tenable” for abortion extremists to burn clinics and put out wanted posters for doctors?

Again, this is a straw man. O’Reilly’s a dick and the abortion extremists are terrorists.
That’s not the point and doesn’t settle the ethics of late term abortions.

557 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:26:38pm

re: #555 Thanos

Also, it’s not a straw man. You maybe missed the part where someone in Army of god decided it was ok for him to take an innocent life and attempt to take another, that besides the doctor’s who was also innocent under the law.

Slavery was legal in the US -did that make it ethical? You’re still missing the point.

558 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:28:58pm

re: #553 FurryOldGuyJeans

Thank g-d people don’t have to rely on your expertise for medical problems.

I’m sure I’d be better than some and worse than others.

559 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:31pm

re: #556 nomra

Again, this is a straw man. O’Reilly’s a dick and the abortion extremists are terrorists.
That’s not the point and doesn’t settle the ethics of late term abortions.

Well, so far we’ve learned that you think it would be “ethical” for a woman to contract diabetes and/or suffer renal failure, because after all, we have insulin, right? What’s the big deal about a little diabetes? Who cares if a woman suffers for the rest of her shortened life, as long as that baby gets born?

This is why you don’t get to decide these things, and doctors do. Your casual cruelty would lead you to condemn women to lives of disease and physical impairment.

560 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:29:33pm

re: #556 nomra

Yes but I”m not talking about late term abortions, I’m talking about christian extremist terrorists who murder people. I”m hijacking your conversation the way you did here so you can proselytize your beliefs.

These are belief driven people murdering innocent doctors. They are not operating within the law, while the decision between a doctor and patient is within the law. The more you try to apologize, rationalize or change the subject, the more I’m going to talk about the harm these people are doing to the Republican party.

561 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:30:25pm

re: #556 nomra

Until, unless, if and only after the fetus has developed into a biologically integral unit independent of its mother’s biological processes; then it is a living, rights possessing individual. And it just so happens that such conditions are met within a couple of weeks of full term labor (evolution doesn’t waste time). The final step that is absolutely necessary is for the fetus’s hemoglobin to switch from gamma globin produced in its liver, to beta globin which is produce in it marrow. Without this step, the fetus cannot take oxygen from its environment (hence oxygen rich chambers for premies).

You are quite obviously trying to couch this argument as a conflict of rights between the fetus and mother, then declare that the line is too ambiguous and that one should err on the side of caution, or to require some more oversight of the individuals making the decisions… nice try.

562 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:30:46pm

re: #552 nomra

Then maybe it’s justifiable in that case. Like I said in the first place, “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” is ambiguous and can cover reasonable, and not so reasonable reasons.

Wow. I’m glad someone has the wisdom to decide which failures of my organs are “reasonable.” Selfish me, I want ‘em all to keep working.

563 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:31:29pm

Here’s my moderate sensible center position:

Abortions in the 1st trimester are allowed.

Abortions in the cases of rape or incest are allowed until fetal viability (mid 2nd trimester). This is because when a minor becomes pregnant as a result of rape, whether it is incestuous or not, she sometimes has to take the time to be appointed a child advocate and go to court in order to get state permission to obtain an abortion against her parents’ wishes. And even when she wins that permission, the parents can still refuse to pay for it, and she needs additional time to raise the funds. But after the onset of fetal viability, the fetus can survive independently of the body of the female carrying it.

Abortions after the onset of fetal viability are allowed only if there is a substantial danger either to the life of the woman or a substantial danger of major physical health consequences (the aforementioned serious and irreversible impairment of bodily functions, brain damage, paralysis, coma, blindness, organ failure, etc.), or if the fetus is either already dead or so horribly damaged, diseased or deformed that it could not long survive childbirth.

564 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:32:14pm

For the record nomra, you don’t seem to be helping your cause much. Keep talking.

565 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:34:03pm

re: #552 nomra

Then maybe it’s justifiable in that case. Like I said in the first place, “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” is ambiguous and can cover reasonable, and not so reasonable reasons.

And it’s the doctor’s business to ascertain that, in the Kansas case with a required second concurring medical opinion, and not yours.

566 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:34:18pm

re: #563 Salamantis

Here’s my moderate sensible center position:

Abortions in the 1st trimester are allowed.

Abortions in the cases of rape or incest are allowed until fetal viability (mid 2nd trimester). This is because when a minor becomes pregnant as a result of rape, whether it is incestuous or not, she sometimes has to take the time to be appointed a child advocate and go to court in order to get state permission to obtain an abortion against her parents’ wishes. And even when she wins that permission, the parents can still refuse to pay for it, and she needs additional time to raise the funds. But after the onset of fetal viability, the fetus can survive independently of the body of the female carrying it.

Abortions after the onset of fetal viability are allowed only if there is a substantial danger either to the life of the woman or a substantial danger of major physical health consequences (the aforementioned serious and irreversible impairment of bodily functions, brain damage, paralysis, coma, blindness, organ failure, etc.), or if the fetus is either already dead or so horribly damaged, diseased or deformed that it could not long survive childbirth.

I agree with that.

567 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:35:09pm

re: #558 nomra

I’m sure I’d be better than some and worse than others.

Because medical expertise is so over-rated. What we really need is somebody with faith, a keen eye, and moral certainty to make the hard decisions./

568 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:36:14pm

re: #556 nomra

Again, this is a straw man. O’Reilly’s a dick and the abortion extremists are terrorists.
That’s not the point and doesn’t settle the ethics of late term abortions.

Considering your abundantly demonstrated ignorance of the medical issues involved, it sure as hell shouldn’t be up to the likes of you to settle such questions.

569 Irish Rose  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:01pm

I can’t really add any more than has already been said, these videos just make me want to retch.

570 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:37:43pm

re: #563 Salamantis

Here’s my moderate sensible center position:

Abortions in the 1st trimester are allowed.

Abortions in the cases of rape or incest are allowed until fetal viability (mid 2nd trimester). This is because when a minor becomes pregnant as a result of rape, whether it is incestuous or not, she sometimes has to take the time to be appointed a child advocate and go to court in order to get state permission to obtain an abortion against her parents’ wishes. And even when she wins that permission, the parents can still refuse to pay for it, and she needs additional time to raise the funds. But after the onset of fetal viability, the fetus can survive independently of the body of the female carrying it.

Abortions after the onset of fetal viability are allowed only if there is a substantial danger either to the life of the woman or a substantial danger of major physical health consequences (the aforementioned serious and irreversible impairment of bodily functions, brain damage, paralysis, coma, blindness, organ failure, etc.), or if the fetus is either already dead or so horribly damaged, diseased or deformed that it could not long survive childbirth.

As I’ve said before, this is a policy I could accept. It answers my concerns, while not endangering lives.

571 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:38:03pm

re: #557 nomra

Slavery was legal in the US -did that make it ethical? You’re still missing the point.

I hope you are never stupid enough to compare a black person to a fetus to their face.

572 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:38:29pm

re: #561 Dan G.


You are quite obviously trying to couch this argument as a conflict of rights between the fetus and mother, then declare that the line is too ambiguous and that one should err on the side of caution, or to require some more oversight of the individuals making the decisions… nice try.

Yes that’s pretty much exactly what I’m doing. I’m only talking about late-term abortions where the fetus has brain waves. To me, that seems a reasonable tipping point into something human.

573 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:39:58pm

re: #558 nomra

I’m sure I’d be better than some and worse than others.

Given what you have said on this thread, I’m having a helluva hard time imagining who could possibly be worse at it than you.

574 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:40:37pm

re: #572 nomra

Even if it isn’t biologically independent (i.e. this is a requisite quality of “individual”)? The inability to acquire oxygen would preclude viability and put a stuttering halt to any brain activity that was supported by its mother’s metabolism.

575 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:42:27pm

re: #557 nomra

I see you have the standard talking points down. Next we are all going to be ceasars and praetorians persecuting poor christians.

Slavery wasn’t ethical but it was legal until after the civil war and ammendments 14-16 or so. Are you suggesting we need a civil war to stop abortion or what?

576 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:43:44pm

re: #575 Thanos

Are you suggesting we need a civil war to stop abortion or what?

It sure seems that some think so.

577 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:44:29pm

re: #572 nomra

Yes that’s pretty much exactly what I’m doing. I’m only talking about late-term abortions where the fetus has brain waves. To me, that seems a reasonable tipping point into something human.

Regular cyclical brainwaves do not appear until after fetal viability. Before then, the brain isn’t even close to being formed, and can’t generate them.

578 jaunte  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:45:50pm

re: #576 Dan G.

The Army of God ex-marijuana salesman was fantasizing about persuading a state to secede over the issue. I think “The Handmaid’s Tale” had that as a background story element.

579 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:45:58pm

re: #575 Thanos

I see you have the standard talking points down. Next we are all going to be ceasars and praetorians persecuting poor christians.

Slavery wasn’t ethical but it was legal until after the civil war and ammendments 14-16 or so. Are you suggesting we need a civil war to stop abortion or what?

Some anti-abortion zealots would welcome a war. Whcich only goes to prove how depraved they are. To paraphrase General William Tecumseh Sherman: “They think a holy war would be all glory, I know it would be all Hell.”

580 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:46:14pm

re: #577 Salamantis

Sal, what do you mean by “fetal viability”? Are you using it as a term for the point at which the fetus can live independent of its mother?

581 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:47:31pm

re: #576 Dan G.

It sure seems that some think so.

Yes, that’s why the slavery thing comes up so much. The next step is to say that you must rebel against “unjust law”. Then they go to lionizing John Brown, and comparing people like Roeder to him ….

I can see it coming a mile away.

For the record John Brown was a terrorist who with the aid of his sons did home invasions, hacked men and boys up with claymores in front of their wives and children, and then burnt their houses down.

582 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:05pm

re: #578 jaunte

It’s been a while since I’ve read that book, so I don’t remember that story element, but it is on my list to read again soon.

I think that abortion is one issue that drives their desire, but the desire for a theocracy I think tops that (i.e. there are other hot button issues that go hand-in-hand and theocracy is the integrating factor holding them all together).

583 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:49:23pm

re: #547 Charles

The line is drawn around the woman who makes the choice, and the doctor who gives her the best advice he/she can. That line keeps people like you out of the decision-making process, no matter how much you might like to dictate the rules.

First off, you’re confusing me with someone who actually wants to dictate the rules.
Secondly, you’re avoiding tackling the ethical question.

584 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:50:23pm

re: #581 Thanos

I haven’t been in the trenches much lately, and not on this topic much at all, but I think your observation is quite astute.

585 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:50:40pm

re: #583 nomra

See ya!

586 jaunte  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:50:50pm

re: #582 Dan G.

I’ve always found it peculiar that theocrats (and potential theocrats) can’t trust God to run his creation.

587 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:51:01pm

re: #583 nomra

First off, you’re confusing me with someone who actually wants to dictate the rules.
Secondly, you’re avoiding tackling the ethical question.

The ethics are: it’s none of your business. It’s a decision for the woman and her doctor(s). You don’t get a voice in it.

588 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:51:41pm

re: #580 Dan G.

Sal, what do you mean by “fetal viability”? Are you using it as a term for the point at which the fetus can live independent of its mother?

Yep.

589 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:51:53pm

re: #586 jaunte

Stupid is as stupid does?

590 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:53:05pm

re: #584 Dan G.

I haven’t been in the trenches much lately, and not on this topic much at all, but I think your observation is quite astute.

If you watch the vid above you see some of the extremists fantasizing about talking a state into seceding over abortion.

591 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:55:29pm

re: #574 Dan G.

Even if it isn’t biologically independent (i.e. this is a requisite quality of “individual”)? The inability to acquire oxygen would preclude viability and put a stuttering halt to any brain activity that was supported by its mother’s metabolism.

That’s a good point. I would point out that no infant is truly “independent” even if healthy and borne full term.

I’ll think about it though.

592 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:56:39pm

re: #583 nomra

First off, you’re confusing me with someone who actually wants to dictate the rules.
Secondly, you’re avoiding tackling the ethical question.

My post #563 specifically addresses the ethics, by making the conditions under which abortions can be obtained more stringent as gestation proceeds, and by dealing with issues such as rape, incest, and fetal viability.

Interestingly enough, it doesn’t radically differ from Roe vs. Wade (the difference being tweaking in the second trimester).

593 Randall Gross  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:34pm

Time for me to get some sleeps, see you all on the morrow.

Giggling Gorilla

594 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:57:41pm

re: #591 nomra

My argument was quite clear, independence was solely in the context of biological integrity. Biological maturity and biological independence are two different things.

595 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 9:58:24pm

re: #591 nomra

That’s a good point. I would point out that no infant is truly “independent” even if healthy and borne full term.

I’ll think about it though.

But once fetal viability is reached, it can live independently of the woman who carries it, and can be sustained by first a competent neonatal ICU, then by a competent adult caregiver.

596 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:02:27pm

re: #587 Charles

The ethics are: it’s none of your business. It’s a decision for the woman and her doctor(s). You don’t get a voice in it.

OK so here’s a hypothetical situation. Woman wants to abort a perfectly healthy fetus the day before she’s due because she broke up with her boyfriend.
Is that OK?

597 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:03:31pm

re: #596 nomra

Why not stick to principles instead of contrived scenarios?

598 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:07:58pm

re: #585 Dan G.

See ya!

You think Charles is that thin skinned that he’d ban me for that? I doubt it.

599 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:08:45pm

re: #596 nomra

OK so here’s a hypothetical situation. Woman wants to abort a perfectly healthy fetus the day before she’s due because she broke up with her boyfriend.
Is that OK?

Major straw man. Tiller didn’t do that sort of thing, and I doubt if there’s a single case of it happening - mainly because Roe vs. Wade prohibits it.

Here’s one for you. A married couple already has three children, and as they cannot afford another without shortchanging themselves and the kids they already have, they use birth control. But it fails them, and the wife finds out when her period is 2 weeks late in coming, and she takes an over-the-counter pregnancy test. They’re not happy about the prospect, but both agree that an abortion is the responsible thing to do for the sake of the family they already have.

I say that’s okay.

600 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:10:47pm

re: #597 Dan G.

Why not stick to principles instead of contrived scenarios?

Because that’s how you work out and test principles. Standard philosophical methodology.

601 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:11:33pm

re: #283 researchok

You may be right, but the numbers tell the story when it comes to abortion. Late term abortion in the US is less about a woman’s health than elsewhere. To begin with, abortion is regarded as birth control by way to many women.

The questions are why that is so and what do we do to reduce the rate of late term abortion.

I think you may want to rethink your argument. [Link: www.cdc.gov…]
tells a very different story. Only 1.4 % are post 21 weeks and the more interesting figure of abortion ratio can be found [Link: www.guttmacher.org…]
0.56 vs 0.69. A difference but not a huge difference.

Best way to deal with the problem? Education and openness. Your kids will have sex. Deal with it.

602 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:12:22pm

Nite all.

Don’t fall for contrived scenarios, the troll will use it as a lever. Once you accept the contrivance, all manner of attempts to equate the contrived scenario to the troll’s prejudiced position will ensue.

If a person’s position cannot be defended by principles, then that person’s position is bankrupt and reverting to contrived scenarios is an absolute concession of defeat.

603 jorline  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:12:31pm

re: #596 nomra

OK so here’s a hypothetical situation. Woman wants to abort a perfectly healthy fetus the day before she’s due because she broke up with her boyfriend.
Is that OK?

We have a winner

That has to be the dumbest fucking question I’ve read on LGF.

I see your LGF birth date was May 4th…you should have been flushed that same day.

604 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:12:45pm

re: #598 nomra

Your toe was on the “telling Charles what to do” line.

605 Dan G.  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:13:39pm

re: #600 nomra

Nah, you can work it out in the actual factual principle level without contrivance.

606 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:13:46pm

re: #599 Salamantis

Major straw man. Tiller didn’t do that sort of thing, and I doubt if there’s a single case of it happening - mainly because Roe vs. Wade prohibits it.

Here’s one for you. A married couple already has three children, and as they cannot afford another without shortchanging themselves and the kids they already have, they use birth control. But it fails them, and the wife finds out when her period is 2 weeks late in coming, and she takes an over-the-counter pregnancy test. They’re not happy about the prospect, but both agree that an abortion is the responsible thing to do for the sake of the family they already have.

I say that’s okay.

I don’t fully agree, but within the first trimester I’m not going to make an objection.

607 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:14:50pm

re: #600 nomra

Because that’s how you work out and test principles. Standard philosophical methodology.

I know a bit about philosophical methodology, considering my ba is in philosophy, and its a major track in my ma. You appear to be attempting a reductio ad absurdum argument against one absolute extreme in order to try to justify its correlative opposite. It doesn’t fly. I have already posted a moderate sensible centrist position that avoids both absolute extremes.

608 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:15:26pm

re: #599 Salamantis

Major straw man. Tiller didn’t do that sort of thing, and I doubt if there’s a single case of it happening - mainly because Roe vs. Wade prohibits it.

In other words, Roe vs. Wade does stick it’s nose in. So you, and presumably Charles et al are actually OK with “dictating” what abortions can be performed.

609 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:16:28pm

re: #596 nomra

OK so here’s a hypothetical situation. Woman wants to abort a perfectly healthy fetus the day before she’s due because she broke up with her boyfriend.
Is that OK?

Go find a state in which your fantasy evil woman could legally have that abortion under those circumstances.

Hint: there are none.

But your little fantasy does reveal a lot about you.

610 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:19:41pm

re: #608 nomra

In other words, Roe vs. Wade does stick it’s nose in. So you, and presumably Charles et al are actually OK with “dictating” what abortions can be performed.

It’s called gradualism. The longer the fetus gestates, the more consideration is given to it, particularly after fetal viability. But the life and physical health of the mother still takes legal precendence, as it should.

611 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:20:32pm

re: #609 Charles

It’s a hypothetical situation Charles, not a fantasy.
So do you think that would be an acceptable situation?

612 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:21:06pm

re: #610 Salamantis

It’s called gradualism. The longer the fetus gestates, the more consideration is given to it, particularly after fetal viability. But the life and physical health of the mother still takes legal precendence, as it should.

Concur.

613 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:23:12pm

re: #611 nomra

It’s a hypothetical situation Charles, not a fantasy.
So do you think that would be an acceptable situation?

No, its a straw man. A good hypothetical stays away from extreme cases. You chose to use a extreme case for your hypothetical, and Charles points out, that says a good bit about you.

614 enoughalready  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:23:32pm

Eh never mind me. My point is that the difference between Sweden and the US can have various explanatory factors (higher incidence of certain classes of pregnancies with a high rate of abortions per 1000 pregnancies etc). The high rate of late term abortions may also be due to reasons that have to do with differences in maternity care but also of the swedish policy of allowing lateish abortions only in cases that are apparently ok:ed by a government board.

615 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:24:18pm

re: #611 nomra

It’s a hypothetical situation Charles, not a fantasy.
So do you think that would be an acceptable situation?

I addressed your ridiculous hypothetical, and batted away your faux followup contention in #610. Now you addresss mine in #599.

616 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:31:20pm

re: #611 nomra

It’s a hypothetical situation Charles, not a fantasy.
So do you think that would be an acceptable situation?

It is a fantasy, about an evil woman who decides to casually abort her baby one day before it’s born. A situation that has probably never happened anywhere except in your mind.

I’m not going to play that game with you.

617 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:34:40pm

re: #575 Thanos

I see you have the standard talking points down. Next we are all going to be ceasars and praetorians persecuting poor christians.

Slavery wasn’t ethical but it was legal until after the civil war and ammendments 14-16 or so. Are you suggesting we need a civil war to stop abortion or what?

I missed that earlier. What the hell are you on about? I’m actually an atheist. Someone said something about hypothetical situations saying more about you…

618 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:39:36pm

re: #617 nomra

Charles said that, and I agreed with him. Now stop farting around and answer Sal’s question. Or do you seek the fate that befell Cognito when he persistently evaded legit questions?

619 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:41:44pm

re: #617 nomra

I missed that earlier. What the hell are you on about? I’m actually an atheist. Someone said something about hypothetical situations saying more about you…

Yep. And the bizarre hypothetical situation you posited tells us more about you than we ever needed to know.

620 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:42:23pm

re: #616 Charles

It is a fantasy, about an evil woman who decides to casually abort her baby one day before it’s born. A situation that has probably never happened anywhere except in your mind.

Excuse me but people get up to all kinds of evil shit. I agree in that situation it’s more likely that an infanticide would happen: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I’m sorry but you’re simply avoiding the question.

621 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:43:14pm

Don’t let up Charles. Conservatives used to oppose vigilantism and lawlessness.

622 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:47:12pm

re: #620 nomra

Excuse me but people get up to all kinds of evil shit. I agree in that situation it’s more likely that an infanticide would happen: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I’m sorry but you’re simply avoiding the question.

That’s even more revealing. Now instead of a casual abortion, your evil woman would commit infanticide.

623 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:47:55pm

re: #620 nomra

Excuse me but people get up to all kinds of evil shit. I agree in that situation it’s more likely that an infanticide would happen: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I’m sorry but you’re simply avoiding the question.

The evil shit that is the topic of this thread is the murdering of abortion doctors, the firebombing of clinics, and the persecution of women. Unlike your nonsensical fantasy, those are all too real.

624 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:48:19pm

re: #621 MrPaulRevere

Don’t let up Charles. Conservatives used to oppose vigilantism and lawlessness.

This conservative still does.

625 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:50:30pm

re: #623 Salamantis

The evil shit that is the topic of this thread is the murdering of abortion doctors, the firebombing of clinics, and the persecution of women. Unlike your nonsensical fantasy, those are all too real.

It’s a typical tactic Sal; Turn the victim into a villain so you can whitewash the implications of his murder. How that differs from Al Jeezera excusing Islamist terrorist is lost on me.

626 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:53:25pm

re: #620 nomra

Excuse me but people get up to all kinds of evil shit. I agree in that situation it’s more likely that an infanticide would happen: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I’m sorry but you’re simply avoiding the question.

And he’s required to answer your questions, because?
The topic of this thread was the murdering of abortion doctors.
Not abortion speculation.

627 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:53:37pm

re: #624 Dark_Falcon

The contract that we as Americans metaphorically sign up for is that if we don’t like the laws we will work to change them without picking up a gun. People who violate that contract should have the full weight on the state on their necks.

628 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:53:46pm

re: #610 Salamantis

It’s called gradualism. The longer the fetus gestates, the more consideration is given to it, particularly after fetal viability. But the life and physical health of the mother still takes legal precendence, as it should.

I’m fully aware of gradualism, I’m working from the same principle.
OK it’s clear you concur with Roe V Wade but none of you guys are explaining why the mother gets a seemly automatic consideration over the fetus.
I would also point out that I’m not American and that there are plenty of countries which allow abortion, even late term, without Roe V Wade.

629 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:55:34pm

re: #625 Dark_Falcon

It’s a typical tactic Sal; Turn the victim into a villain so you can whitewash the implications of his murder. How that differs from Al Jeezera excusing Islamist terrorist is lost on me.

Oh piss off both of you. I’m doing nothing of the sort. You’re building straw men.

630 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:58:07pm

re: #622 Charles

That’s even more revealing. Now instead of a casual abortion, your evil woman would commit infanticide.

Are there no crimes like that in the world? What do you think it reveals? Sounds scary.

631 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:58:25pm

re: #628 nomra

I’m fully aware of gradualism, I’m working from the same principle.
OK it’s clear you concur with Roe V Wade but none of you guys are explaining why the mother gets a seemly automatic consideration over the fetus.
I would also point out that I’m not American and that there are plenty of countries which allow abortion, even late term, without Roe V Wade.

To answer your question; Because the mother is the life we have the best chance of saving. She also the baby’s mother and in such matters is allowed to make the choice. I honor those who risk death to save the life of another, but it is not the sort of thing you force someone to do.

632 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:59:29pm

re: #628 nomra

I’m fully aware of gradualism, I’m working from the same principle.
OK it’s clear you concur with Roe V Wade but none of you guys are explaining why the mother gets a seemly automatic consideration over the fetus.
I would also point out that I’m not American and that there are plenty of countries which allow abortion, even late term, without Roe V Wade.

Because the fetus is not an actual present person, or even a potential human person, since the word ‘potential’ implies the inevitability of actualization, and fully a third of pregnancies end in miscarriage (spontaneous abortion). And where the rights of a possible future person come into conflict with the rights of an actual present person, the rights of the latter must take moral precendence in any sane or just universe. Even if that conflict is between the life of the possible future person and the physical health of the actual present person.

633 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 10:59:52pm

re: #629 nomra

Oh piss off both of you. I’m doing nothing of the sort. You’re building straw men.

No, we’re showing that you are a troll who now finds itself reduced to arguments ad hominum.

634 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:03:31pm

re: #630 nomra

Are there no crimes like that in the world? What do you think it reveals? Sounds scary.

The fact that your hypothetical woman is capable of not only casual late term abortion, but also of infanticide, reveals a seamy demonizing misogynist streak in you. And yes, that’s scary. Scary as hell. I fear for the safety and well-being of any women in your life.

635 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:03:54pm

re: #633 Dark_Falcon

No, we’re showing that you are a troll who now finds itself reduced to arguments ad hominum.

Actually, pointing out that you’re using fallacies is not an ad hominem, calling someone a “troll”, is.
FYI: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

636 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:05:56pm

I answered your hypothetical, and you refused to answer mine. Even though yours is far more a red herring straw man, and far less representative of an actually possible real world situation, than is mine.

637 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:06:15pm

Actually this is generating waaay more heat than light. See you guys later. I’m going to have dinner. I’ll think about the point raised later.
Cheers

638 nomra  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:09:05pm

re: #634 Salamantis

The fact that your hypothetical woman is capable of not only casual late term abortion, but also of infanticide, reveals a seamy demonizing misogynist streak in you. And yes, that’s scary. Scary as hell. I fear for the safety and well-being of any women in your life.

I’ll let them know they better watch out…

Wow. That was incredibly nasty. That, says a lot about you.

639 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:09:26pm

Well, since the troll has gone to bed, I need to turn in myself. I’ve got a 7:30 meeting I must attend.

640 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:09:39pm

re: #635 nomra

Actually, pointing out that you’re using fallacies is not an ad hominem, calling someone a “troll”, is.
FYI: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

YOU’RE the one profferring a straw man hypothetical, which I have addresssed, and obdurately failing to address my much more realistic and reasonable one.

Which renders YOUR stance illogical and fallacious, and not mine.

641 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:10:39pm

re: #638 nomra

I’ll let them know they better watch out…

Wow. That was incredibly nasty. That, says a lot about you.

Yeah, it says you shouldn’t mess with him. I’ve tried, and I can tell you he’s good. Now run along before he makes you cry.

642 Salamantis  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:11:22pm

re: #638 nomra

I’ll let them know they better watch out…

Wow. That was incredibly nasty. That, says a lot about you.

No, it says a lot about what can be rationally derived from your sick and twisted hypothetical about you.

643 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:12:09pm

re: #640 Salamantis

YOU’RE the one profferring a straw man hypothetical, which I have addresssed, and obdurately failing to address my much more realistic and reasonable one.

Which renders YOUR stance illogical and fallacious, and not mine.

To be fair, Sal, nomra was attacking me not you with that post. But your point is still on target and valid.

644 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:20:52pm

Good night for real this time.

645 SixDegrees  Thu, Jun 4, 2009 11:48:02pm

re: #36 HAL2010

WIll the man who killed Dr. Killer be charged as a terrorist?

Anyone know?

There’s a very large investigation going on at the moment into the shooter and his connections to various anti-abortion groups. The phone number of one a director of one of these groups was found in his car, and the investigation is broadening. Hard to say just yet what he’ll be charged with, or how many others will be roped in. I’m hoping a lot, and a lot.

646 nomra  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 3:25:57am

re: #607 Salamantis

I know a bit about philosophical methodology, considering my ba is in philosophy, and its a major track in my ma.

You know, it really doesn’t show. You engage in waay to much name calling, straw men, and sanctimony, rather than reason.

You’ve accused me of not addressing your hypothetical in #599 (true, I didn’t) but it is, in fact, yet more evidence of you completely missing the point. Your scenario is simply not germane because a) it’s not a case of late term abortion b) there’s no chance that the fetus is viable or has brain waves so c) there exists no conflict in weighing their respective “rights”. It is therefore her call.
I did actually point out that I was only talking about late-term abortions and that I am in fact, “pro choice” regarding 1st trimester abortions but that my reservations grow as the fetus reaches maturity. The issue I raised was about where we draw the line and why.
However, I suppose it’s easier, and the self righteousness much more invigorating, when you shadowbox with your big misogynistic bogeyman.

647 nomra  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 3:33:41am

re: #645 SixDegrees

There’s a very large investigation going on at the moment into the shooter and his connections to various anti-abortion groups. The phone number of one a director of one of these groups was found in his car, and the investigation is broadening. Hard to say just yet what he’ll be charged with, or how many others will be roped in. I’m hoping a lot, and a lot.

Yeah I agree, I hope they do get anyone else involved.
Does he have to be part of some kind of network in order to charged as a terrorist under US law?

648 ihateronpaul  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 3:42:11am

This army of god bullshit is all over the south. Even in SC, every convienence store I went into had tons of books telling people how to “fight in the army of god” against “satan”

649 nomra  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 3:48:40am

re: #641 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, it says you shouldn’t mess with him. I’ve tried, and I can tell you he’s good. Now run along before he makes you cry.

He’s not actually, but if you had difficulty debating him, I suppose I understand why you might think so.

650 nomra  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 3:51:47am

re: #648 ihateronpaul

This army of god bullshit is all over the south. Even in SC, every convienence store I went into had tons of books telling people how to “fight in the army of god” against “satan”

Really, wow. OK that is fucked up. Sounds like it’s a way bigger problem in the US than other western countries. I don’t really understand why that is.

651 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 3:59:04am

re: #300 Salamantis

Did you bother to read my posts? I never claimed the 60,000 figure is accurate. All I did was demonstrate that it is not mathematically impossible to do that many procedures over a 35 year career in a clinic with a professional staff.

652 Abu Lahab  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 4:48:38am

re: #649 nomra

He’s not actually, but if you had difficulty debating him, I suppose I understand why you might think so.

Yes, you had difficulties debating Salamantis because he is a master in objective and constructive debate, that’s why it’s hard to debate with someone who has solid arguments. Unlike your fantasies about “imagine this situation” and “What if this and that happens” arguments! It’s easy to come up with such fantasies about any law or situation in life, but that’s not reality.
Your arguments based on (what if) are really an old trick already. I read your arguments through the thread, you have “rich” fantasies. And even if they might happen in reality, that does not mean laws should be based on them. Simple I think!

653 dauntlessone  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 6:20:43am

1. I am not defending them, they are guilty of vandalism, stupidity, hatefulness, and hindering the pro life movement to the point that the net result will be MORE abortions.

2. OK, so murders of 7 abortionists over 36 years is considered a murder crime spree? How about a documentary about the underage women who have been seriously injured or died from botched legal abortions where their parents were not notified before their child underwent major surgery? Or one about the emotional damage done by abortion to women?

3. Killing millions of unborn babies is *yawn* not worth concern?

4. In a nation of 300 million you will find people who cast any belief in a poor light if you dig hard enough. People who commit crimes should and are punished. This film is trying to make a huge issue out of a few nut jobs.

654 nomra  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 7:08:50am

re: #652 Abu Lahab

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I suck, he’s great because you agree with him. Whatever. You’re simply cheerleading and not adding anything to the discussion.

It’s obvious we’re not going to have a proper discussion on this topic so this is my last post on the topic.

However, for anyone who was interested in some of the issues I was attempting to raise, I just came across this article by Megan McCardle in the Atlantic: [Link: meganmcardle.theatlantic.com…] which she addresses some of the exact same points.

Check out the comments too -surprising civil, considering.

655 Land Shark  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 7:41:57am

I’m as Pro-Life as anyone and the Army of God makes me sick. This is the ugly side of the Pro-Life movement, and one we need to emphatically reject. Fortunately, most Pro-Lifers won’t resort to murder and terrorism, otherwise abortion clinics today would be war zones. But there’s enough of these sickos, and they are well organized enough to be a problem.

The Army of God falls in the category “Things Jesus Would NOT Do!”

656 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:18:17am

re: #655 Land Shark

I’m as Pro-Life as anyone and the Army of God makes me sick. This is the ugly side of the Pro-Life movement, and one we need to emphatically reject. Fortunately, most Pro-Lifers won’t resort to murder and terrorism, otherwise abortion clinics today would be war zones. But there’s enough of these sickos, and they are well organized enough to be a problem.

The Army of God falls in the category “Things Jesus Would NOT Do!”

Abortion clinics in MY hometown HAVE BEEN war zones, complete with raging mobs, firebombed buildings, flying bullets, and the murdered corpses of doctors and escorts lying in pools of blood in parking lots.

657 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:26:25am

re: #624 Dark_Falcon

This conservative still does.

Ditto. I categorically reject the proposition that one must be a social-issue “conservative” to be a “real” conservative. Especially when what it really seems to mean is that one must be a right-wing radical. That’s just as silly as saying that one must be a commie to be a true liberal.

658 Land Shark  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:29:42am

re: #656 Salamantis

And sadly, they will be again if the Army of God gets it’s way. That’s why any Pro-Lifer with half a brain needs to reject those nut cases. Unfortunately they are starting to come out of the woodwork with this recent murder. Not good.

659 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:36:57am

re: #651 Kenneth

Did you bother to read my posts? I never claimed the 60,000 figure is accurate. All I did was demonstrate that it is not mathematically impossible to do that many procedures over a 35 year career in a clinic with a professional staff.

Perhaps not mathematically impossible, IF you ignore the time that late term abortions actually take, and chain this doctor to the table for his entire career. But the point is that it is PRAGMATICALLY and EMPIRICALLY impossible. And the further point is that antiabortionists strive to misrepresent Dr. Tiller as having performed 60,000 LATE TERM abortions in his career, when not even close to that many late term abortions (defined as third trimester abortions) have not been performed in the US since Roe vs. Wade became law by all abortion doctors COMBINED. Roughly a thousand of them a year by all US doctors (and less in the earlier years due to a smaller US population, since only about 1 in 300,000 must undergo the medically necessary procedure) for the past 36 years is barely half of the 60,000 figure. And Dr. Tiller peformed only 323 of these last year. Which, multiplied by the number of years he has been providing the service, works out to a small fraction of 60,000.

But it doesn’t matter. If ten times that many late term abortions were medically necessary per year, or a hundred times more were, providing those procedures, rather than allowing women to die or be permanently substantially physically impaired because of medical issues or forcing them to bear dead or horribly deformed bodies at vastly higher physical risk, would still be the humane and ethical and decent and moral thing to do.

660 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:43:56am

Here’s an interesting article:

Let’s Make an Abortion Deal
Four recommendations for Obama’s common-ground talks.
By William Saletan

[Link: www.slate.com…]

But I don’t think any of it will matter to extremist terrorist antiabortionists such as the Army of God, any more than I think a peaceful Israeli/Palestinian two-state solution would matter to Al Qaeda.

661 ihateronpaul  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:45:35am

re: #650 nomra

Really, wow. OK that is fucked up. Sounds like it’s a way bigger problem in the US than other western countries. I don’t really understand why that is.

this is a pic of one of the books I found:

Image: n1488600121_30085021_6656.jpg

it kept going on about army of god shit…

I was going to buy it for laughs but it was like $20
these companies take advantage of ignorant evangelicals

that garbage book was released by

[Link: www.impactchristianbooks.com…]

662 medaura18586  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:53:02am

re: #536 nomra

Lots of people have diabetes and we do have insulin. I’m really not sure that’s a good enough reason to kill an otherwise healthy baby.

You, sir, are a sick f**k!

663 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:57:51am

re: #632 Salamantis

where the rights of a possible future person come into conflict with the rights of an actual present person, the rights of the latter must take moral precendence in any sane or just universe

Let us add the physician’s POV — the person the physicians owes his/her primary duty to is the actual person present, their PATIENT, not the possible future person.

664 Land Shark  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:02:25am

re: #663 Tully

While I’m against abortion, one of the few times I support it is when the woman’s health and life are in danger. The woman’s health and life must take precedence. Period.

665 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:06:52am

re: #653 dauntlessone

1. I am not defending them, they are guilty of vandalism, stupidity, hatefulness, and hindering the pro life movement to the point that the net result will be MORE abortions.

Are you saying that physical intimidation, assault, property destruction and murder would be okay with you if the net result were LESS abortions?

2. OK, so murders of 7 abortionists over 36 years is considered a murder crime spree? How about a documentary about the underage women who have been seriously injured or died from botched legal abortions where their parents were not notified before their child underwent major surgery? Or one about the emotional damage done by abortion to women?

How about a documentary about the many, many women who died or suffered permanent injury before abortions became legal, because they sought out a back alley butcher or attempted to self-abort, and ended up toxic or bled out from hemorrhaging and piling up in hospital ER rooms and and morgues. Or one about the women, like my ex-wife, who have suffered emotional damage from being coerced into carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term? More than 30 years later, she still has nightmares about it, and curses the bastard who twisted her arm. Or about the 13 year old girl near my hometown who was repeatedly raped by her drunken fundamentalist father, who then forbade her an abortion once he impregnated her and was jailed for his crimes, claiming that it was God’s righteous retribution for “their” sin? What if she had not been able to get appointed a child advocate and obtain court permission for the procedure over her father’s objections? And, since he still refused to pay for it, what if I and a friend of mine had not been moved to cover the costs?

3. Killing millions of unborn babies is *yawn* not worth concern?

They’re not babies UNTIL they’re born. They may be zygotes, or embyos, or fetuses, depending upon the gestational period, but they’re not nursing and crying and getting regularly diapered, like actual born babies do.

4. In a nation of 300 million you will find people who cast any belief in a poor light if you dig hard enough. People who commit crimes should and are punished. This film is trying to make a huge issue out of a few nut jobs.

This film is showing people already favorably predisposed towards antiabortion terrorism and murder being recruited and systematically taught, trained, and conditioned to perform it. Just like recruiting the jihadically predisposed for Al Qaeda. And both the Army of God and Al Qaeda support their imprisoned members after they have perpetrated such acts, and consider the perpetration of such acts to add moral authority, weight and influence with their peers to those who have committed them

666 Gus  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:19:06am

re: #653 dauntlessone

1. I am not defending them, they are guilty of vandalism, stupidity, hatefulness, and hindering the pro life movement to the point that the net result will be MORE abortions.

2. OK, so murders of 7 abortionists over 36 years is considered a murder crime spree? How about a documentary about the underage women who have been seriously injured or died from botched legal abortions where their parents were not notified before their child underwent major surgery? Or one about the emotional damage done by abortion to women?

3. Killing millions of unborn babies is *yawn* not worth concern?

4. In a nation of 300 million you will find people who cast any belief in a poor light if you dig hard enough. People who commit crimes should and are punished. This film is trying to make a huge issue out of a few nut jobs.

Your first point contradicts your 4th point. While in the former you admit that these criminals hinder the pro-life objectives in the latter you disregard the film as just making a “huge issue out of a few nut jobs.” The film provides a service for Americans by exposing and detailing the criminal objectives of the “Army of God” and provides a good example on for all citizens on how not to carry themselves in a normal society. They are intent on inspiring criminal acts including murder on what still remains a legal medical procedure (and it is not limited to the much touted late-term abortions which represent a small fraction of all abortions).

The number of women that died from medical malpractice as a result of legal abortions pales in comparison to those that died from botched illegal abortions — many of which were performed by non-trained medical personnel prior to Roe v. Wade. No one is suggesting that the results of abortion should be taken lightly or as you suggest to cause one to “yawn.” Abortion is a complicated issue that goes beyond the medical procedure itself and deals with a complicated array of events.

You suggest that the “murders of 7 abortionists over 36 years is considered a murder crime spree.” My first observation is the word “abortionists” which immediately indicates your agenda. Abortions are performed by licensed medical doctors whom are OB-GYNs. Furthermore, the number of people that have been victims of, as you suggest, “a few nut-jobs”, totals 9 and that’s from the year 1993. That period would be 16 years and not 36 years as you falsely suggest. Of those 9, 5 were doctors and the balance of occupations included: one off-duty policeman working as a guard; two receptionists; and one clinic escort. Since 1977 there were also 17 attempted murder cases; approximately 150 assault and battery incidents; and 3 kidnappings. The attempted murder cases includes shootings and severe injuries to the victims.

667 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:25:27am

re: #664 Land Shark

While I’m against abortion, one of the few times I support it is when the woman’s health and life are in danger. The woman’s health and life must take precedence. Period.

You know the problem with that position? I mentioned it upthread. Let me point it out again. The statistical odds of maternal death or permanent injury to the mother are much lower for skilled clinical abortion than they are for natural miscarriage or “normal” vaginal delivery or C-section. As in full-order-of-magnitude safer.

Given this fact, under that rubric we are reduced to deciding HOW “in danger” a mother’s life or health must be before she is allowed by law to pick which set of odds she wants to face. Even if the fetus she is carrying is severely abnormal in ways not compatible with life after delivery. In general, a skilled clinical abortion means a roughly ten-fold reduction in the risk of maternal death or permanent injury.

668 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:35:15am

re: #646 nomra

You know, it really doesn’t show. You engage in waay to much name calling, straw men, and sanctimony, rather than reason.

I find that assertion to be surpassingly strange, coming from someone who baited the list with a ‘demonic woman’ red herring on a rhetorical hook.

You’ve accused me of not addressing your hypothetical in #599 (true, I didn’t) but it is, in fact, yet more evidence of you completely missing the point. Your scenario is simply not germane because a) it’s not a case of late term abortion b) there’s no chance that the fetus is viable or has brain waves so c) there exists no conflict in weighing their respective “rights”. It is therefore her call.

Which is a roundabout, reluctant admission that you conceded my position and point regarding my scenario. As were your updings on my posts # 563 and #610.

I did actually point out that I was only talking about late-term abortions and that I am in fact, “pro choice” regarding 1st trimester abortions but that my reservations grow as the fetus reaches maturity. The issue I raised was about where we draw the line and why.
However, I suppose it’s easier, and the self righteousness much more invigorating, when you shadowbox with your big misogynistic bogeyman.

Own your own misogynistic hypothetical. I simply drew out the reasonable ramifications considering what profferring such a denigrating scenario indicates concerning the opinions regarding women held by its profferrer. Demonizing the women who procure abortions is the radical extremist antiabortion flip side of demonizing the doctors who provide them.

I also notice that you gratuitously downdinged my post # 542 correctly pointing out to you that comprehensive renal failure entails not a subsequent regimen of insulin, as you incorrectly contended, but in fact regular kidney dialysis for the remainder of one’s life. You apparently did not appreciate my exposing your false minimization of the dire medical consequences of a well-documented physical complication associated with diabetic childbirth. Which says a lot about you - and what it says is far from complimentary.

669 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:57:35am

re: #357 kansas

It is against the law to have sex with a minor and minors are getting abortions. The the law has been broken. So, no the law was not upheld. Obviously the citizens feel uncomfortable trying to find out who has impregnated children, so their representatives should change the law. Simply having the law so everyone feels peachy is odd.

I don’t know about Kansas, but in California it is not ‘illegal to have sex with a minor’, if the partner is also a minor within a certain range of years. This is so teenagers having sex with each other are not subject to legal penalties, other than having your mother find out and freak.

I realize that this is not always the case, and that there are indeed many older people who prey sexually on young women (and men), but I would suggest that a lot of pregnant teenagers are pregnant by boys their own age.

670 happycamper  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:01:26am

Just as evil “Muslims” give the rest of Islam a bad name, an evil “Christian” will give the rest Christianity a bad name. Tiller, and his killer, no doubt believed they were both Christians, and I have no doubt God will deal with both of them on His terms and not ours.

There’s been alot of debate about reports of how many abortions Tiller performed over 35 years. Is it possible (and I don’t know) that the number of 60,000 (if accurate) is the total of what his clinic performed between all the doctors employed there? Was Tiller the only doctor doing the procedures?

671 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:18:49am

re: #669 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly, SFZ, and that’s why the courts invalidated Kline’s take on the Kansas law. Kansas law mandated that health professionals and teachers and social workers and such report suspected sexual abuse of minors. The “Kline interpretation” was that ANY suspected sexual activity by minors called for such reporting to the state. The way Kline wanted the law interpreted, gynecologists would have been required to report to the state any time an underage patient presented without an intact hymen. School officials and teachers would have been required to report any mutual grope in the hallways. And so on.

Such an interpretation if enforced would have had most of MY high school class thirty-plus years ago under criminal investigation. As it would today—teenagers haven’t changed that much.

Pretty silly.

672 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:25:08am

re: #670 happycamper

The number, if it has any empirical basis at all, would have to include the first couple of decades of Tiller’s practice, when the bulk of the patients were first-term procedures and there were multiple doctors working there. It is simply false as to any resemblance to a realistic count of late-term procedures performed there.

673 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:45:56am

re: #672 Tully

The number, if it has any empirical basis at all, would have to include the first couple of decades of Tiller’s practice, when the bulk of the patients were first-term procedures and there were multiple doctors working there. It is simply false as to any resemblance to a realistic count of late-term procedures performed there.

Absolutely right. Even if it were possible for Tiller’s clinic to perform 8 abortions every single working day for 35 years straight (which seems absurd to me), the vast majority of those would have been first-term abortions. The statistics posted by Thanos above show that there simply weren’t enough late-term abortions in the entire state of Kansas to back up that ridiculous figure.

674 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:58:16am

re: #647 nomra

Yeah I agree, I hope they do get anyone else involved.
Does he have to be part of some kind of network in order to charged as a terrorist under US law?

Nope. See Ted Kaczynski, AKA the Unabomber.

675 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 12:14:32pm

re: #645 SixDegrees

re: The phone number of one a director of one of these groups was found in his car, and the investigation is broadening. Hard to say just yet what he’ll be charged with, or how many others will be roped in.

At this time he has been arraigned on one count of first-degree murder and two counts of aggravated assault under Kansas law. All of which are pretty much slam-dunk under the circumstances—namely being positively identified by the eyewitnesses, caught driving the car ID’d as leaving the scene, etc.

Unless an “agreement or contract” with others to commit the murder can be shown, he is not eligible for the death penalty on those charges in Kansas. It is conceivable that the charges could be upgraded enough to get him the “hard forty” (forty years, NO parole). The phone number of Cheryl Deann Sullenger, Operation Rescue’s “Senior Policy Analyst” and former “Event Coordinator” and “Outreach Coordinator,” was found written on an envelope on the dashboard of his car. OR is now based in Wichita, having relocated there from San Diego specifically to concentrate on Tiller’s clinic. Sullenger’s story has changed repeatedly since the news of the shooting first broke, from “NO idea who he is” to “he’s not affiliated with OR” to “I’ve seen him around but not recently” to “I had daily phone contact with him during Tiller’s trial two months ago, telling him what times and dates the court hearings were.” Which hearings Roder attended.

Cheryl Deann Sullenger was convicted along with her husband Randall Ray Sullenger in 1988 of conspiring to bomb abortion clinics, and served two years in prison while he did three. They are still married and reside together. In 1999, when she and OR under Troy Newman were still in San Diego, a restraining order was issued against her ordering her and others in OR to, among other things, cease and desist uttering threats of death and violence to clinic patients and personnel.

Sullenger has since claimed to have renounced violence. Uh huh. Your own mileage there. But I think it’s safe to say that OR in Wichita is being rather thoroughly checked out at the moment. Any federal charges against Roeder (or any others) would be over and above the state’s prosecution for murder and agg assault.

Roeder has complained to AP that he’s being “treated like a criminal.” Um, DUH.

676 Ty85719  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 12:21:09pm

This is, obviously, a story worthy of concern. Yet, as Charles Johnson wrote in another article, this very article is a “transference” of significance. These people are truly on the fringes, and hold no sway over our society . The left will use the Tiller murder for political expediency. However, it, by no means, meets or trumps the momentousness of Islamic fundamentalism.

HBO, Sundance, IFC, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. systematically deny the airing of anything critical of Islamic fundamentalism. The attention given to radical Christians since the Tiller murder has overwhelmed reporting of the terrorist attack at the military recruiter office by 100 fold, and it isn’t by coincidence.

677 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 12:57:08pm

re: #676 Ty85719

This is, obviously, a story worthy of concern. Yet, as Charles Johnson wrote in another article, this very article is a “transference” of significance. These people are truly on the fringes, and hold no sway over our society . The left will use the Tiller murder for political expediency. However, it, by no means, meets or trumps the momentousness of Islamic fundamentalism.

HBO, Sundance, IFC, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. systematically deny the airing of anything critical of Islamic fundamentalism. The attention given to radical Christians since the Tiller murder has overwhelmed reporting of the terrorist attack at the military recruiter office by 100 fold, and it isn’t by coincidence.

We can walk and chew gum, at the same time here. I cannot really see Charles being so affected by the MSM’s wide coverage of this terrorist assassination that he would engage in a compensatory truncation of his own coverage. Nor do I believe that he will compromise his principles regardless of what either the left or the right has to say about ther matter. Rather, I think that he has engaged in his own research into the seamy underbelly of the radical extremist antiabortion movement, been horrified by the evidence of de facto terrorist cells whose members commit firebombings and assassinations and endeavor to recruit and inspire others to do so that he has found there, and decided to shine an antiseptic light of list attention on these foul, vile and rabid murderous cockroaches - just as he has done on any number of other issues. And the antiabortion terrorism perpetrated by these ‘fringers’ has most certainly adversely affected the availability of abortion in our country, and as such, has wielded an illegitimate intimidational sway over the legal choices of many of this nation’s women.

This is not a Republican blog. This is not a conservative blog. This is not even a solely antijihadist blog, even though jihadism is perhaps its pre-eminent enduring focus (and its continuing focus on global jihadism is a GOOD thing, and the primary reason that I registered as a member). Rather, it is an anti-idiotarian blog, and Charles will post upon every malignant idiotarianism that he deems deserves the list’s attention, without fear or favor.

You remind me of the creationism-in-public-school advocates who have urged Charles to please not gore their personal pet idiotarian ox or shaft their secred cow, but rather to let their rancid and toxic religious-dogma-in-science-class mushrooms proliferate and flourish in the dark basement of inattention. My guess is that it ain’t a gonna happen with the Army of God, any more than it did with the Disco Institute.

678 Charpete67  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 12:57:33pm

I don’t get people’s (including Charles Johnson) obsession with a fringe group who did this horrendous thing. There is no moral equivalence between a fringe group who has killed a handful of doctors vs. a much more mainstream radical group of insane muslims who have killed thousands in just the last ten years.

Why would you even want to watch a documentary that is far more about making people look at pro-life people as gun toting radicals than about the facts of the abortion debate. Would HBO show what “late term” abortions are really about? Would HBO show what “dilation and extraction” really is? They will show a bloody dead doctor outside a clinic, but will they show a bloody dead baby on an procedure table?…or the special room Obama set up for the aborted babies to die without medical treatment.

They won’t, just like most readers will roll their eyes when they read my post…somehow America has become dead to the sensitivities of life.

We all claim to be wise, but became like fools. We all have our minds made up and are only looking to here or see things that support what we already believe.

679 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:01:16pm

re: #676 Ty85719

I have seen quite a lot of coverage of the Arkansas shootings in mainstream media. And I’ve seen a lot of coverage of the fact that the shooter was apparently investigating other targets as well. Here’s a search on Google News — see for yourself:

[Link: news.google.com…]

I think it’s misleading to try to draw conclusions from any perceived differing coverage of two unrelated incidents like this. Dr. Tiller was a very public figure, who was the subject of numerous critical pieces on the Bill O’Reilly show, and had been almost murdered once before. He had just been through a very public court case and was acquitted of all charges.

I think the focus on his death and the radical anti-abortion movement is appropriate, and not exaggerated or a matter of “political expediency.”

680 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:05:35pm

re: #678 Charpete67

…the special room Obama set up for the aborted babies to die without medical treatment.

What the hell is this about?

681 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:09:54pm

re: #675 Tully

But I think it’s safe to say that OR in Wichita is being rather thoroughly checked out at the moment. Any federal charges against Roeder (or any others) would be over and above the state’s prosecution for murder and agg assault.

And a breaking-news addendum: USDoJ has announced a probe into the incident.

“The Department of Justice will work tirelessly to determine the full involvement of any and all actors in this horrible crime,” said Loretta King, head of the department’s civil rights division.

Anyone who played a role in the killing, she said, will be prosecuted “to the full extent of federal law.”

Which would include Roeder, of course, for anything not covered by the state’s murder & assault charges. The current state charges carry minimum sentencing of 25 years to life.

682 dapperdave  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:10:22pm

re: #680 Charles

I think Obama voted for some bill back in Ill. that would prohibit medical treatment if a baby survived an abortion but I don’t know for sure.

683 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:12:26pm

re: #678 Charpete67

I don’t get people’s (including Charles Johnson) obsession with a fringe group who did this horrendous thing. There is no moral equivalence between a fringe group who has killed a handful of doctors vs. a much more mainstream radical group of insane muslims who have killed thousands in just the last ten years.

It’s not either/or, it’s both/and. Charles has posted voluminously upon global jihadism, and I fully expect this trend to continue. But I also do not see him ignoring what is by far the most proliferent homegrown terrorist movement in our nation. And there IS indeed a moral equivalence between Al Qaedan jihadists and antabortion jihadists; both of them murder and destroy for religious reasons.

Why would you even want to watch a documentary that is far more about making people look at pro-life people as gun toting radicals than about the facts of the abortion debate. Would HBO show what “late term” abortions are really about? Would HBO show what “dilation and extraction” really is? They will show a bloody dead doctor outside a clinic, but will they show a bloody dead baby on an procedure table?…or the special room Obama set up for the aborted babies to die without medical treatment.

As I have said before, I would have no problem with an abortion being televised, if on the same program they showed a desperate woman attemptiong to self-abort and hemorrhaging to death in a pool of her own blood on her bathroom floor. And those particular antiabortionists ARE either themselves clinic firebombers and doctor murderers, or else fanatically support such actions and the people who perpetrate them.

They won’t, just like most readers will roll their eyes when they read my post…somehow America has become dead to the sensitivities of life.

Or could it be that your compassion for the women in these situations is dead?

We all claim to be wise, but became like fools. We all have our minds made up and are only looking to here or see things that support what we already believe.

That sounds like an accurate self-description you’re projecting there.

684 Charpete67  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:13:29pm

When he was in Chicago, there was a debate about late term abortions started by a nurse who had covered for another nurse in the abortion wing of her hospital. It turns out that one of the aborted babies was still alive and she ended up holding the baby until it died. That started her on her crusade when she found out that legally doctors were not allowed to “save” the life of a baby that had survived an abortion. The babies were put in a room and allowed to die of natural causes.

Obama opposed any sort of late term abortion legislation. As a compromise, the hospital was forced to make the “room” nicer by painting it and getting better lighting to make the room better.

The woman was interviewed several times on Oreilly and other media outlets during the election. I can’t for the life of me remember her name, but I know she has a website. I apologize if I have not gotten the story 100% correct, but I know it’s generally what the story is.

685 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:14:56pm

re: #680 Charles

What the hell is this about?

One of the more senationalist claims made by the AA’s against Tiller and his practice. Given the through investigations of the practice, including at the hands of Kline, it’s safe to say this is not true, no matter how fervently the AA’s swear it as gospel.

Speaking of Kline, the man really has NO sense of timing.

A spokesman for former state Attorney General Phill Kline called it unfortunate that a solicitation that arrived Thursday in thousands of Kansas mailboxes mentioned slain Wichita abortion provider George Tiller.

The Topeka Capital-Journal reported on its Web site that the five-page brochure asked Kline’s supporters for donations to help him eliminate $200,000 in personal legal debt and to fight abortion.

686 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:15:55pm

It’s more than a little ironic that in the same Google News search where you can see thousands of results for the Arkansas shootings:

[Link: news.google.com…]

… you can also see several articles at right-wing or Christian websites complaining about the lack of coverage of the Arkansas shootings. This is obviously a talking point they’re pushing hard to divert the focus away from the anti-abortion movement.

687 dapperdave  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:17:26pm

re: #686 Charles

There seems to be more than enough coverage on both.

688 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:20:36pm

re: #680 Charles

What the hell is this about?

I think it has to do with that Illinois bill that antiabortionists willfully mislabel as addressing nothing more than not allowing infants to die, when that provision was actually a Trojan Horse fig leaf beneath which was concealed such extremist clauses as redefining a fertilized egg as a human being.

689 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:21:03pm

Missed that the “dying room” was being referenced to Chicago/Obama. No info on that here. I’ve seen the same claim made about Tiller’s clinic, thus my reply. My misreadin’ bad.

690 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:22:17pm

The Born Alive Infant Protection Act was not simply a bill to protect infants “born alive.” It was an attempt by the anti-abortion lobby to change the way abortion is defined in the law, and undercut Roe v. Wade. The bill Obama opposed was intended to increase the liability for doctors and hospitals that perform abortions.

This is a good post about it, with lots of quotes from the actual bills and the deceptive language introduced by the Stanek-Santorum crowd:

[Link: blogs.chicagotribune.com…]

This is NOT as simple as “Obama supports baby-killing.” I am NO FAN OF BARACK OBAMA, but there’s a lot of dishonesty going on in this issue — from the right-wing side.

691 Charpete67  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:23:00pm

re: #683 Salamantis

I would bet that more people have been killed by environmental groups than radical christian groups.

Let me just say for the record…I am not defending the Army of God at all. I’m also not saying that there has not been enough said on this website about the RoP. What I am saying is that, in my opinion, HBO and the MSM do stories like this not to talk about the “inside story”, I view it as an attack on anyone who is pro-life. The reason I think that is because, like I said in my original post, you will not see an equivalent story regarding the “inside story” about what happens in an abortion clinic.

I am pro-life and I believe if you saw that sort of coverage about abortion clinics, you would see a shift in public attitudes about abortion.

I do have compassion for the women…I believe they will be better making the right decision vs the wrong. Besides, if I believe that is a life in their womb, what pain could that woman be suffering that could justify murder? Please don’t give me the same old arguments about the mothers life in danger on the operating table…I know that exception, but it is exceedingly rare. I’m speaking to the vast majority of abortions that are convenience.

Lastly, I did not claim to be wise and if you knew where that quote came from, you would know your very response is exactly who the quote was aimed at.

692 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:26:24pm

re: #691 Charpete67

I would bet that more people have been killed by environmental groups than radical christian groups.

LOL. Don’t tell that to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist the easy straight line…)

693 Charpete67  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:31:11pm

by the way…didn’t really want to have an abortion debate…just wanted to clarify that being pro life doesn’t mean I live in a tornado magnet, have bad teeth and go shirtless when I’m interviewed on tv. (never been on tv…just speculating I would wear a shirt)

694 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:41:14pm

To some Tiller was a crusade, to others he’s always been just a fundraising ploy:

Thousands of Kansans opened their mailboxes Thursday to find a solicitation letter from former Attorney General Phill Kline that invokes physician George Tiller and Planned Parenthood while seeking contributions for a campaign against abortion rights.

The five-page mailing from Kline was placed into circulation by an Ohio company May 27, a spokesman for Kline said, which would have been four days before Tiller was shot and killed at a church in Wichita.

“There was no way to foresee what was going to happen,” said spokesman Brian Burgess. “I think it’s fair to say the timing is unfortunate.”

Kline, who filed criminal charges against Tiller while serving as attorney general, targeted the solicitation at former political supporters. He is trying to eliminate $200,000 in personal legal debt that piled up during the past six years. The letter also says cash was needed by Life Issues Institute, an anti-abortion organization in Cincinnati affiliated with Kline, to “launch more aggressive battles on the national front.”

“I need your support,” Kline says in the piece. “Your contributions will help us continue this fight and defray our legal expenses.”
—-

695 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:42:12pm

Phil Kline after being defeated now teaches at Jerry Falwell’s university iirc.

696 Charpete67  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:44:54pm

re: #692 Tully

Environmentalist killed by falling tree
[Link: www.state-journal.com…]

I guess I should do more research before I speak…maybe trees have killed more activists, er…

697 KansasMom  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:51:49pm

re: #694 Thanos

“Kline, who filed criminal charges against Tiller while serving as attorney general, targeted the solicitation at former political supporters. He is trying to eliminate $200,000 in personal legal debt that piled up during the past six years. “

Interesting how he is asking for help paying off his personal legal debt. I assume this debt stems from the charges that Kline forwarded private medical records to O’Reilly and took them with him when he left the DA’s office. So I guess the contributions will help him “continue the fight” by breaking privacy laws and keeping private patient records in his personal files. Nice.

698 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:53:44pm

re: #691 Charpete67

I would bet that more people have been killed by environmental groups than radical christian groups.

Nine people have been murdered by antiabortionists, and seventeen other murders have been attempted. This isn’t even to mention 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, three kidnappings, 655 bioterror attacks, 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I await your links showing that more than this has been perpetrated by the ecoterrorists.

Let me just say for the record…I am not defending the Army of God at all. I’m also not saying that there has not been enough said on this website about the RoP. What I am saying is that, in my opinion, HBO and the MSM do stories like this not to talk about the “inside story”, I view it as an attack on anyone who is pro-life. The reason I think that is because, like I said in my original post, you will not see an equivalent story regarding the “inside story” about what happens in an abortion clinic.

But the very definition of an inside story is the very own horses’ mouth words of the people involved. And you get that in the video, on both the antiabortion terrorists’ side, and the side of those who have been victimized by their violence. And as I said im MY original post, I’m quite willing to have an abortion televized as long as a videotape of a woman hemorrhaging to death in a pool of her own blood on her bathroom floor after sttempting a self-abortion with a kinitting needle is also shown.

I am pro-life and I believe if you saw that sort of coverage about abortion clinics, you would see a shift in public attitudes about abortion.

I am pro-choice with reasonable post-fetal-viability restrictions, and after seeing pictures like this, I will NEVER shift my position:

Image: 565-260-166.jpg

I do have compassion for the women…I believe they will be better making the right decision vs the wrong.

It’s a damn good thing that you don’t get to decide what’s right or wrong for this nation’s women. Such decisions are between the woman, her doctor, and her own conscience - and that’s the way it should be.

Besides, if I believe that is a life in their womb, what pain could that woman be suffering that could justify murder?

You nust be one of those a-single-celled-zygote-is-equivalent-to-an-adult-human-being absolutists. Well, it ain’t. The woman is a person; a zygote or an embryo is not.

Please don’t give me the same old arguments about the mothers life in danger on the operating table…I know that exception, but it is exceedingly rare. I’m speaking to the vast majority of abortions that are convenience.

It happens thousands of times a year. And abortions of convienience are overwhelmingle chosen in the first trimester, when we’re talking about something the sixe and shape of a tadpole or smaller, not a cherubic-faced infant.

Lastly, I did not claim to be wise and if you knew where that quote came from, you would know your very response is exactly who the quote was aimed at.

I know that you were paraphrasing the Bible; radical antiabortionists are dismayingly adept at twisting scriptures into justifying the murders of their choice, just like other religious fanatics are.

699 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:55:20pm

re: #697 KansasMom

“Kline, who filed criminal charges against Tiller while serving as attorney general, targeted the solicitation at former political supporters. He is trying to eliminate $200,000 in personal legal debt that piled up during the past six years. “

Interesting how he is asking for help paying off his personal legal debt. I assume this debt stems from the charges that Kline forwarded private medical records to O’Reilly and took them with him when he left the DA’s office. So I guess the contributions will help him “continue the fight” by breaking privacy laws and keeping private patient records in his personal files. Nice.

Bingo.

700 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 1:58:29pm

I’m waiting to see what’s in the letter / brochure, it was five pages. Kline and Discovery Institute are two big reasons Kansas turned from Red to purple on the election maps.

701 KansasMom  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 2:12:05pm

re: #700 Thanos

I’m waiting to see what’s in the letter / brochure, it was five pages. Kline and Discovery Institute are two big reasons Kansas turned from Red to purple on the election maps.

Bingo right back at ya.

702 Charpete67  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 2:20:57pm

re: #698 Salamantis

as for terrorist threats in the US, I don’t have the exact stats, but here’s a general summary from the US Gov:

From 1980 to 2001, the FBI recorded 482 incidents or planned incidents of terrorism within the United States. (See Figure 7.1.) According to Terrorism: 2000–2001, (Washington, DC: Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2002), these incidents killed 2,993 people and injured 14,047. Of the 482 incidents committed in the United States, 164 were committed by international terrorist groups, 130 by domestic left-wing groups, eighty-five by domestic right-wing groups, and eighty-one by domestic special-interest groups. (See Figure 7.2.) By region, terrorist attacks were most common in the Northeast (144), Puerto Rico (103), and the West (97). (See Figure 7.3.) Table 7.1 is a chronological summary of all domestic terror incidents from 1990 to 2001.

[Link: www.libraryindex.com…]

I would also check [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I’m not sure, but I think the Weathermen and their parent group had 15 murders…

Your term for me is “radical antiabortionist”…since we disagree, are you then a “radical abortionist”? You are the very definition of hearing what you want to hear to justify you position and calling me a radical because I disagree. I’ve never justified murder of any sort, let alone used the bible to do it. You make these jumps to peg every pro life person as a scripture twisting radical…it’s just not the case. That’s exactly what I am talking about…no common ground.

I will say this, you hit the nail on the head when you identified the main thing as the main thing. When does life begin…every other argument is moot until that has been determined.

703 Tully  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 2:25:42pm

re: #701 KansasMom

Yep. Been going on longer than that, but the basics are that since the religious right seized control of the county and state GOP parties, they’ve been losing a lot of elections. They ram through a far-righter social conservative in the primaries, and the Dems field a moderate/centrist who kicks the so-con winger’s butt in any state-wide general election as the GOP moderates turn their back on the spittle-spewing wingers. That’s the general pattern, anyway.

When GOP moderates & MainStreeters get through the primaries and onto the ballot, they’re elected easily against almost any Democrat. It’s just tough for them to win their primaries when the RR’s target the race. It’s still a very Republican state, but it is not a far-right one by any means.

704 Charpete67  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 2:34:09pm

re: #703 Tully

you’re right…and I would also say that as long as anyone who is pro life is pegged as “radical”, there will never be a chance.

I’m just convinced that America is not as pro-choice as people think. Most polls do show people are not in favor of outlawing abortion, but a recent poll by Rassmuesen (or one of the major pollers) shows that 51% of Americans are personally pro life. It’s the first time that has been the case in many years. Either way you look at it, even if 40% of the country is pro life, you can’t say that 40% of the country is radical.

There is a ton of common ground on the issue, but the debate is so heated, no one will budge an inch for fear of a slippery slope in the other direction.

705 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 2:56:42pm

re: #702 Charpete67

as for terrorist threats in the US, I don’t have the exact stats, but here’s a general summary from the US Gov:

From 1980 to 2001, the FBI recorded 482 incidents or planned incidents of terrorism within the United States. (See Figure 7.1.) According to Terrorism: 2000–2001, (Washington, DC: Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2002), these incidents killed 2,993 people and injured 14,047. Of the 482 incidents committed in the United States, 164 were committed by international terrorist groups, 130 by domestic left-wing groups, eighty-five by domestic right-wing groups, and eighty-one by domestic special-interest groups. (See Figure 7.2.) By region, terrorist attacks were most common in the Northeast (144), Puerto Rico (103), and the West (97). (See Figure 7.3.) Table 7.1 is a chronological summary of all domestic terror incidents from 1990 to 2001.

[Link: www.libraryindex.com…]

I would also check [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I’m not sure, but I think the Weathermen and their parent group had 15 murders…

The vast preponderance of those domestic murders in the OK City bombing and the 9-11 atrocity. How many environmentally motivated US murders have you found? Your original assertion WAS that they exceeded the number of antiabortion motivated murders (nine).

Your term for me is “radical antiabortionist”…since we disagree, are you then a “radical abortionist”? You are the very definition of hearing what you want to hear to justify you position and calling me a radical because I disagree. I’ve never justified murder of any sort, let alone used the bible to do it. You make these jumps to peg every pro life person as a scripture twisting radical…it’s just not the case. That’s exactly what I am talking about…no common ground.

Nope. You wanna see pro-abortion, go to Communist China, where the government mandates that women who have had a couple of children MUST terminate all subsequent pregnancies. That’s pro-abortion in the same sense that a government prohibiting all abortions would be antiabortion.

Rather, I am pro-choice, which means that my stance is that prior to fetal viability, the woman concerned has the choice either to terminate her pregnancy, or to carry it to term. HER choice; not yours, not mine’s and not the government’s.

Feel free to strive to remake the US into a totalitarian flip side to Communist China on the abortion issue if you so wish, but as you have the constitutional right to politically endeavor to legislate your particular version of sharia into US law, or to support the appointing of jurists who would judiciate a ban into being, I am equally constitutionally entitled to politically oppose such legislation and such judicial appointments.

And I DO oppose such legislation and such appointments. Because I view the employment of the power of the state to coerce reproductive choices away from female citizens of this nation to be repressive and wrong, whether it is employed to force her to have an abortion or to forbid her from having one.

I will say this, you hit the nail on the head when you identified the main thing as the main thing. When does life begin…every other argument is moot until that has been determined.

The argument isn’t about life, it’s about personhood. Which is what I said. I did not say what you said I said. A zygote or an embryo are human and alive, but not persons. But the woman is. And it was on the basis of the personhood of the woman and the nonpersonhood of the zygote or embryo that Roe vs. Wade was decided.

706 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 3:07:35pm

re: #704 Charpete67

you’re right…and I would also say that as long as anyone who is pro life is pegged as “radical”, there will never be a chance.

I’m just convinced that America is not as pro-choice as people think. Most polls do show people are not in favor of outlawing abortion, but a recent poll by Rassmuesen (or one of the major pollers) shows that 51% of Americans are personally pro life. It’s the first time that has been the case in many years. Either way you look at it, even if 40% of the country is pro life, you can’t say that 40% of the country is radical.

In the Deep South 50+ years ago, far more than 40% of citizens were in favor of segregation and Jim Crow. That percentage did not lend them moral legitimacy, or absolve them of racism.

Most women would personally not choose to abort their pregnancy unless the alternatives were harrowing for them. Yet, just in case those harrowing alternatives present themselves, they also wish to keep their options legally open.

There is a ton of common ground on the issue, but the debate is so heated, no one will budge an inch for fear of a slippery slope in the other direction.

Sure there is a ton of common ground on this issue. That’s what I was aiming for in my moderate sensible centrist position in post #563:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Common ground doesn’t mean everyone agreeing to YOUR extreme ground of no abortion choices whatsoever. And abortion on demand throughout all three trimesters, the correlative opposite extreme, has never been MY ground.

707 strangelove  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 4:51:42pm

Sorry, but I can’t just swallow the party line here that ‘terror is terror, no matter what the reason’, or that people who kill abortionists are ‘just like’ Islamic terrorists. That’s crap. Islamic terrorists murder for what you believe. People who kill abortionists do so as a response to specific actions, namely performing an abortion which extinguishes viable human life. Before everyone freaks out here, know that I believe anyone who murders an abortionist should be charged with murder like anyone else. If you want to blame someone, blame those who created Roe v. Wade, garbage law made out of whole cloth……you don’t have right to an abortion. That should have remained a state’s rights issue.

708 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 5:11:14pm

re: #707 strangelove

If you want to blame someone, blame those who created Roe v. Wade, garbage law made out of whole cloth……you don’t have right to an abortion. That should have remained a state’s rights issue.

I blame the murderer, and to a lesser extent the groups and support systems that “inspire” the murderers.

Those are the people who should be blamed. Those who murder, and those who promote and enable murder.

And some anti-abortion groups subtly (but sometimes openly) help create the environment of fanaticism that leads to murder in the name of God. This doesn’t happen in a vacuum.

If a deluded loser commits a crime, a significant number of people will say:

“Yay, murder!”

… judging from what happened this week.

709 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 6:10:30pm

re: #707 strangelove

Sorry, but I can’t just swallow the party line here that ‘terror is terror, no matter what the reason’, or that people who kill abortionists are ‘just like’ Islamic terrorists. That’s crap. Islamic terrorists murder for what you believe.

Which they can only know by what you DO. Like having a Torah or a Bible instead of a Quran, wearing a Jewish star or a Christian cross rather than a Muslim crescent and star, celebrating different holidays, consuming different foods or drinks, wearing different dress, praying on your own schedule rather than answering the call of the muzzein, attending a synagogue or a church instead of a mosque…

People who kill abortionists do so as a response to specific actions, namely performing an abortion which extinguishes viable human life.

The two doctors and the clinic escort gunned down by antiabortion terrorists in my own hometown were operating at clinics that only performed 1st trimester abortions - pre-viability.

Before everyone freaks out here, know that I believe anyone who murders an abortionist should be charged with murder like anyone else. If you want to blame someone, blame those who created Roe v. Wade, garbage law made out of whole cloth……you don’t have right to an abortion. That should have remained a state’s rights issue.

Actually, the US Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that US women DO have the right to obtain abortions. You may not like the fact that the USSC has decided that way (quite obviously, you don’t), but it IS the law of the land, and remains the law of the land, regardless of your convictions and opinions on the matter. I do not blame the US Supreme Court for antiabortion murder; I blame the terrorist assassinating jihadi bastards who pull the triggers and plant the bombs. If you don’t like a law, you work within constitutional avenues available to you to change it. Murders and firebombings are not included within those constitutional means.

710 Osama Bin Asshat  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:06:36pm

Salamantis:
Rather, I am pro-choice, which means that my stance is that prior to fetal viability, the woman concerned has the choice either to terminate her pregnancy, or to carry it to term. HER choice; not yours, not mine’s and not the government’s.

You’re really concerned about her choice. Does the father have a choice? Should he pay child support for a child he never consented to? Does the fetus get a say in this?…after all, if it wasn’t a living growing “thing” it wouldn’t need killing would it?

You’re simply spewing the same chivalrous claptrap that has enabled an American culture to abort 38 million Americans in 35 years. You have been socially engineered to believe it is just about the woman, this is your error, this is your weakness.

711 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:02:43pm

re: #23 dapperdave

I would have to say JCM these people are not Christians, I don’t see the love of Christ in any of these folks, Jesus said love thy neighbor not blow them up.

That’s the same talking point used by imams after attacks: “These are not muslims, they are misguided youths.”

I don’t believe the label. But I know the brand all too well.

712 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:07:29pm

re: #707 strangelove

you don’t have right to an abortion. That should have remained a state’s rights issue.

I’m guessing you are not a woman.

It’s easy for men to be armchair philosophers on this issue, but you will never have to make this kind of decision. So why do you think you are qualified to tell a woman what rights she does and does not have, simply because it makes you uncomfortable?

713 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:11:27pm

re: #37 dapperdave

So are islamic militants not islamists?

714 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:11:35pm

re: #710 Osama Bin Asshat

Salamantis:
Rather, I am pro-choice, which means that my stance is that prior to fetal viability, the woman concerned has the choice either to terminate her pregnancy, or to carry it to term. HER choice; not yours, not mine’s and not the government’s.

You’re really concerned about her choice. Does the father have a choice? Should he pay child support for a child he never consented to? Does the fetus get a say in this?…after all, if it wasn’t a living growing “thing” it wouldn’t need killing would it?

You’re simply spewing the same chivalrous claptrap that has enabled an American culture to abort 38 million Americans in 35 years. You have been socially engineered to believe it is just about the woman, this is your error, this is your weakness.

Nope. If the couple is married, that’s one thing; I believe that marriage is a contract to take care off all the kids that the couple has, and if the husband doesn’t want any more, then he should get himself snipped.

But if there’s no marriage involved, and no committed long time relationship, and the potential biological inseminator does not want a child, does not want to support a child, does not want to be a father to a child, he should make this position abundantly clear to the potential inseminatee from the get-go, then if she decides to forego contraception, get impregnated, and have a child anyway, she should be its sole support.

And zygotes and embryos can’t say jack shit, any more than a tree or a turnip can. They’re incapable. They’re not persons. Simple fact.

And Americans are BORN. So no Americans have been aborted, and none can be, because there’s no such thing as aborting the born.

Your error seems to be to think that just because you’re male, that you should get to dictate to the other half of the human race precisely what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.

And it ain’t about weakness. It’s about being strong enough to refuse to tell other people what to do at the same time that you refuse to be told what to do by others. Its about the strength to both be an sovereign and independent individual and to allow others to be the same, even, in fact especially, when they make their own choices that differ from the choices that you yourself would have made in their positions.

715 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:22:41pm

re: #66 A Kiwi Infidel

No they are not, but they certainly give true Christians and their faith a VERY bad name, and every excuse to have the christian faith outlawed, should the urge take a leftwing liberal government……….and oh, whaddyaknow, we have one, so the clock starts ticking.

Do the Taliban merely give Islam a bad name? Or is there something more to it? Does it strike you as wise for men to sacrifice in the name of god, in exchange for rewards reaped in the afterlife?

This is how rational men do terrible things throughout our history, it’s not unique to Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or “Bob”. History of Christian bloodshed is well documented, but today is less common, because most western societies have secular government which separates religion and government. The Muslim world does not have this separation and we can see what has happened because of it.

716 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:26:04pm

re: #69 quiet man

I mistyped my number, sorry.

I do not support Tiller and disliked the guy…I think his murder is terrorism by a loon…and there are other loons out there, the vast majority are not killers.

Look at the little girls in the bottom frame, wackos, maybe..probably.
potential killers for god..I just cant see it.

How many countries have you been to? I’m guessing not many. The capacity for Holy War is much greater than you give credit and is much more common in other parts of the world.

This is why WMD proliferation is such an alarming trend. There are entire nations ready to give their lives for certain causes, all they need now are the means to do so.

717 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:29:10pm

re: #79 jcm

The believe they are Christian, acting on God’s will. A very dangerous thing….

But the fruit of the spirit is certainly lacking.

Galations 5:22, 23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control: against such things there is no law.

Yep, you might even call it “The religion of Peace” but that’s already taken.

718 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:31:49pm

re: #86 Crimsonfisted

Where did all the women come from? Is that statistically accurate within the Wichita area?


Actually, I heard from an equally reliable source that it was the same woman getting several abortions everyday for the last 35 years.

/

719 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:39:17pm

re: #98 A Kiwi Infidel

I dont agree with/allow abortion. A true Christian would plead with a non-believer in a greater argument, that all fall short of the Glory of God and the need to turn to Him for forgiveness (repent) forgiveness coming through the blood of Christ shed on the Cross. Only after a person repents and is forgiven that there should be a reflection on the work they do, if it contravenes His commands.
That is all we are called to do, even though we will weep and pray over the many and multitude atrocities that are committed daily, and yes, some even in His name.

First, that whole Blood of Christ® thing is a little creepy. Second, not everyone believes in Jesus, not to mention god. There are thousands upon thousands of religions as well as those that do not believe at all.

Telling someone to repent to your god is not civilized, it’s tyranny.

YOU DO NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY.

720 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:41:30pm

re: #102 gruvin

re: #88 Thanos

No, not at all! I’m just pointing out what many will use to bolster their pathetic argument that us Christians are as dangerous, bloodthirsty, and opressive as Muslim extremists. Granted, one of us sure was, in this case. But, Christianity doesn’t preach murder as doctrine.

You are right, it’s a Religion of Peace™.

721 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:44:05pm

re: #106 IslandLibertarian


If The Army of God are not Christian, does that make Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, the Taliban etc not muslim?

Would Jesus murder an abortion doctor?
Would Mohammad?

How far do you put your head in the sand to ignore violence in the name of Jesus?

I’m guessing it’s gotta be pretty deep.

722 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 9:50:26pm

re: #124 gruvin

#89 Pawn:

HBO’s reporting is indeed valid, and yes I am concerned about AOG, or any other Christian extremist group. What I do hear, is the vast majority of Christian pro-life groups condemning this nutjob. Where is this majority of devout Muslims condemning atrocities on an infinitely larger scale on Jews, women, innocent children, and even other muslims nationwide? Chirp! Why? In Christianity, murder is WRONG, always. No so in Islam

Murder is a crime in Saudi Arabia. They have a court system, those found guilty of murder are sentenced to death, and are executed.

Religious violence is nothing new, don’t act surprised when it’s a Christian.

723 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:00:59pm

re: #173 Thanos

So if you lived in Nazi Germany and were hiding a Jewish family in your home, would it be a sin to lie to soldiers when asked if you were hiding any Jews?

Absolutes fall apart around the edges, life is rarely binary.

724 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:05:05pm

re: #176 Jewels (AKA Julian)

I treat the Army of God lot like one would a blazing gas fire. With Respect and Distance

They do not deserve respect from anyone. Isolation gives them strength, giving them distance is giving them room.

They should be investigated, confronted, and arrested when criminal intent is evident.

725 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:26:09pm

re: #236 Slumbering Behemoth

WTF?! That woman [deleted] is insane.

She’s not insane, she knows exactly what she is saying, and means every word.

She makes money selling books.

726 snoot  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 10:35:32pm

Summer of 85, I sensed being led to go down to the local abortion clinic. Dad asked me to “be” the presence of His love. To all there, those in favor of, and those not. It was not an ” us vs them “. Be my Love. I took hot tea & wool gloves.
When I got on scene, there was loud sreeching- anti towards pro. A placard on a stick was shoved into my hands. That was unsettling to say the least. I offered tea to all, and eventually a young woman took me up on the offer of the gloves. It was a cold, overcast day. I ask those hollering at the people going into the clinic what the thought they were accomplishing by behaving that way. That was not well received. I was ask who I was and how long I’d been in the fight.
The lady who was wearing the gloves I’d brought was a very pretty blond. No Mark, thats not why your here I said to myself, several times. Eventually we talked. She was there with a friend whose dad was a pastor. She told me that since she was wearing my clothes(gloves), maybe she should know my name. After a couple of hours, Deb and her friend were set to leave, so she returned the gloves and said goodbye. She stepped off the curb to go and I blurted out ” may I have your phone #” ? She wrote down her name and number!
The next day, my employer was throwing the yearly store party. In effect, it was going to be a big drunk down in the South Platte area. Instead, a blizzard blew in and we had brunch at EL Rancho. From there I called the woman I’d met the day before to ask if she would be interested in going to church with me that evening. She had gotten a cold from the day before & couldn’t go. May I pray for you? Yes she replied. May I call you again I ask? Yes!
Within the next thirty days, I came to ” know, that I know, that I know”, that I had met the woman I was going to marry. I told that to the small home group of people I met with every week to fellowship as christians. They laughed at me. Within several weeks, I called her again. This happened just after a sit on the toilet and while sitting there this thought came prominently uninvited into my noggin, ” why don’t you ask her to marry you”. As i knew that thought did not originate w/me, I shot it back at God. Father, I just had this come into my mind, and I dont want it, you can have it back. Then I went to the laundry room to do that, and while in that process, I thought about the church bulletin and in it being an announcement about a ministry involving China. So i found a bulletin. On the back, the first thing i noticed was, in fact it seemed to leap off the page, “premarital training & counseling classes! No, no, thats not what I’m looking for! The next one ” premarital training & counseling classes again ! Then the China ministry announcement was third. These classes were an attempt to help reverse the trend of divorce rate in the body of Christ. So, I went to the phone and immediately called Deb. I have a question to ask you. She said she knew exactly what I was going to ask. It’s not that I’m not asking you to marry me, but would you be interested in taking the classes together? Yes!
It took us two years to get married, and recently celebrated our 22 anniversary. I found out that she had recently decided to put aside for a time, seeking relationship with guys out of some frustrations and failures in that part of her life. She had in fact pulled out her typewriter to fill out an application to the missionary field with an interest in Mexico. The typewriter broke and she ended up at on that very same day as I, being at 16th & Vine on that Saturday morning we met 24 years ago.
She is a gift from my heavenly Father, to a man that by the time he was only five years old, had suffered so much rejection, that he had rejected himself as a human being.

Mark

727 idioma  Fri, Jun 5, 2009 11:24:58pm

re: #666 Gus 802

You just put down some hardcore logic!

728 Osama Bin Asshat  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 7:08:41am

Salamatis

And zygotes and embryos can’t say jack shit, any more than a tree or a turnip can. They’re incapable. They’re not persons. Simple fact.

Neither can a new born child!

729 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 9:08:04am

re: #728 Osama Bin Asshat

Salamatis

And zygotes and embryos can’t say jack shit, any more than a tree or a turnip can. They’re incapable. They’re not persons. Simple fact.

Neither can a new born child!

Umm…yes they can. They can’t say words yet, but they can cry when they’re hungry, and coo when they’re content. They can make their basic needs and feelings known.

730 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 11:25:17am

A Brief History of Anti-Abortion Terrorism in America

iQ

Yeah, it’s Rachel Maddow, I know, but it’s quite a concise yet comprehensive history of antiabortion murder and attempted murder in this country, the domestic terrorists who commit such acts, and the support systems and sympathizers who embrace them and demonize their victims.

731 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 11:27:20am

A Brief History of Anti-Abortion Terrorism in America

trying to post the video again…

Yeah, it’s Rachel Maddow, I know, but it’s quite a concise yet comprehensive history of antiabortion murder and attempted murder in this country, the domestic terrorists who commit such acts, and the support systems and sympathizers who embrace them and demonize their victims.

732 Osama Bin Asshat  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 4:09:46pm

Umm…yes they can. They can’t say words yet, but they can cry when they’re hungry, and coo when they’re content. They can make their basic needs and feelings known.

Salamantis:

One of the characteristics of living things is they respond to stimuli. A fetus will resond to stimuli, a turnip cannot. A fetus makes it’s feelings known to adversity/trama by increasing its heart rate, secreting higher levels of cortisol, epinephrine, by developing abnormally, and ultimately by dying in utero.

You would be better off sticking to incidences where abortion is a viable option: rape, incest, pre-teen, mother’s health. Relegating the miracle of life to that of a turnip is offensive.

733 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 5:13:12pm

re: #732 Osama Bin Asshat

Umm…yes they can. They can’t say words yet, but they can cry when they’re hungry, and coo when they’re content. They can make their basic needs and feelings known.

Salamantis:

One of the characteristics of living things is they respond to stimuli. A fetus will resond to stimuli, a turnip cannot. A fetus makes it’s feelings known to adversity/trama by increasing its heart rate, secreting higher levels of cortisol, epinephrine, by developing abnormally, and ultimately by dying in utero.

That’s bullshit and you know it - or you ought to. You’re talking about automatic responses to incoming stimuli, not conscious attempts at communication. That simply demonstrates that a fetus is alive, not that it’s a person. Even a tree will automatically turn its leaves to the sun.

You would be better off sticking to incidences where abortion is a viable option: rape, incest, pre-teen, mother’s health. Relegating the miracle of life to that of a turnip is offensive.

You would be better off not trying to equate a pre-viability embryo the size and the shape of a tadpole or a zygote the size of a pinhead and the shape of a BB with a teenager. They’re alive and they’re human, but they’re NOT persons, and the person - the woman - should have the right to decide for herself what happens with and within her own body, and does. Abortions should continue to be available without any restrictions whatsoever at such an early stage - and they well be, whether it torques you jaws and wads your panties or not.

734 Osama Bin Asshat  Sat, Jun 6, 2009 5:52:03pm

You would be better off not trying to equate a pre-viability embryo the size and the shape of a tadpole or a zygote the size of a pinhead and the shape of a BB with a teenager.

Yes, but to become said teenager, the DNA in said BB would have to be allowed to express itself.

No BB, no teenager. Snuff out the BB, there is no teenager.

The offspring is 50% the father’s. It isn’t just about the woman. To say otherwise is selfish and reeks of radical feminism.

735 Xenobyte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:42:12am

Islam or Christianity - all religions with extrovert members enforcing their faith or values upon others are evil and must be purged. If you believe in something - by all means do so. Inside your head that is. Confine rituals to the privacy of your home. That way nobody else gets hurt, manipulated, bullied or killed.

It would be optimal if we could get rid of all religion but until mankind matures enough we’ll have to settle for the private practice.

736 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 8:41:05am

re: #734 Osama Bin Asshat

You would be better off not trying to equate a pre-viability embryo the size and the shape of a tadpole or a zygote the size of a pinhead and the shape of a BB with a teenager.

Yes, but to become said teenager, the DNA in said BB would have to be allowed to express itself.

But when God or nature takes its course, fully as third of those BBs are miscarried (spontaneously aborted), while the woman is already 100% absolutely apodictically and mostt certainly present. It would be most nonsensical and absurd to even begin to attempt to even contemplate endeavoring to equate the No BB, no teenager. Snuff out the BB, there is no teenager.

The offspring is 50% the father’s. It isn’t just about the woman. To say otherwise is selfish and reeks of radical feminism.

The man spends a few minutes fucking, orgasms, and that’s the extent of his contribution. He could do it hundreds of times in 9 months. The woman must grow the zygote/embryo/fetus in her body for 3/4 of a year, and then undergo the pains and rigors of childbirth, after which she feeds an infant from her own body. For you to even hint at the notion that the responsibilities, therefore the rights, are equivalent is bizarre beyond all measure. Get it through your patriarchal supremacist head; women are not required to be your broodmares.

737 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 8:47:49am

In other words, Osama, this aint fuckin’ Saudi Arabia.


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