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Love Islamic Extremist Style

Middle East | Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 9:51:24 am PDT

Hamas: the eHarmony of Radical Islam.

About 40 marriages have been arranged since Tayseer opened its matchmaking department in 2007. Most women apply in secret because it’s taboo for women in Gaza to seek husbands outside the traditional route. Most girls are married in matches set up by their mothers. Dating is nearly nonexistent and love marriages are a novelty.

Tahani, who spoke on condition that only her first name be used because she is using the service without her family knowing, said she turned to Tayseer a year ago. Her mother died when Tahani was young, and none of her relatives were helping her find a groom.

The young woman said she became more determined to find a husband after Israel ‘s three-week war on Hamas, which ended in January. Israel’s assault killed hundreds of civilians, and Gaza’s residents hunkered down in homes and shelters during the shelling, not knowing where bombs would fall next. [We were wondering how AP Palestinian writer Diaa Hadid would work in the propaganda angle. – ed.]

“My brothers held their wives when they were scared. I felt lonely,” said Tahani, a university graduate in social work.

Most women are shy when they first come in the door, said Tayseer matchmaker Nisrin Khalil, 21.

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752 comments

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1 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 9:53:46am

The song 'Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places' comes to mind.

2 Bobblehead  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 9:55:09am

re: #1 Sharmuta

The song 'Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places' comes to mind.

I thought of "Looking for Mr. Goodbar"

3 opnion  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 9:56:43am

They should do the old Dating Game format.
'Fatima, what would you like to ask Ahmed?"
'Ahmed, if I choose you, do you promise not to put me in a suicide belt?"

4 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 9:57:59am

Even when the news could be considered modern and progressive, the anti-Israel angle has to be squeezed in.

5 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:00:17am

When will the Gazan gays demand equal representation as was done with the American eHarmony?

6 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:01:02am
[We were wondering how AP Palestinian writer Diaa Hadid would work in the propaganda angle. – ed.]

Propaganda? I know you think AP is a nest of traitors and fifth columnists, but do you really think that the description of civilians "hunkering down" during the shelling is inaccurate? There's something to be said, here, about at least trying to see both sides in this conflict. It seem to me that understanding the Palestinian leadership, particularly Hamas, as the thugs and killers that they are shouldn't lead to what sometimes reads as a pretty callous disregard for common Palestinians.

7 Thanos  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:01:03am

re: #4 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hadid did it.

8 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:02:11am

re: #7 Thanos

Hadid did it.

Ummm, I'm not familiar with that name. Is this some meme I should be know about?

9 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:02:40am

“My brothers held their wives when they were scared

bad sentence structure. I don't know who was scared and being comforted. The wives, or those brave Hamas "soldiers"

MAMA ,,, HOLD ME !

10 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:03:26am

Breeding for Jihad.

11 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:03:53am

re: #6 AemJeff

Propaganda? I know you think AP is a nest of traitors and fifth columnists, but do you really think that the description of civilians "hunkering down" during the shelling is inaccurate? There's something to be said, here, about at least trying to see both sides in this conflict. It seem to me that understanding the Palestinian leadership, particularly Hamas, as the thugs and killers that they are shouldn't lead to what sometimes reads as a pretty callous disregard for common Palestinians.

Of course- they were only getting shelled because of the endless rocket attacks against Israel- but why waste a chance to portray Israel as a bully?

12 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:04:00am

re: #6 AemJeff

The 'common' Palis voted these murderers as their leadership.

13 brookly red  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:04:10am

re: #9 sattv4u2

“My brothers held their wives when they were scared
bad sentence structure. I don't know who was scared and being comforted. The wives, or those brave Hamas "soldiers"
MAMA ,,, HOLD ME !

the "soldiers" were safe in the hospital basement for the most part.

14 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:04:14am

re: #6 AemJeff

And the day when some flaming asshole didn't come here and try to excuse the blatant bias of the world media regarding Israel and Palestine is a day that hasn't happened yet.

15 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:04:36am

re: #6 AemJeff

The "story", as it were has nothing to do with the "war'. It had EVERYTHING to do with a taboo form of matchmaking in the Islamist world.

So the ONLY reason why this woman wants a husband is for someone to hold her when the bombs fall!?!?!?!?

ggggeeeeezzzzzzzz

16 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:04:54am
17 Thanos  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:05:23am

re: #6 AemJeff

In an effort to appear impartial they always work some anti Israeli sentiment in, regardless of whether it's pertinent or not. This story could have been written six months from now and it still would contain the hunkering down bit. They can't say anything critical of Hamas without slamming Israel. Where have you been the past 20 yrs?

18 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:05:48am

re: #15 sattv4u2

The "story", as it were has nothing to do with the "war'. It had EVERYTHING to do with a taboo form of matchmaking in the Islamist world.

So the ONLY reason why this woman wants a husband is for someone to hold her when the bombs fall!?!?!?!?

ggggeeeeezzzzzzzz

Logic and trolls, oil and water. Hard to mix.

19 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:06:08am

re: #12 pingjockey

You sound just like lefties I argue with abut the same point. All the fault is one side and not the other.

20 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:06:11am
21 poteen  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:06:36am

Gazamatch.com

"Wives wanted. Must be able to cook, clean, assemmble crude explosive devices and hold me when I'm scared."

22 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:07:10am

Is this the same site which occasionally shows up in Google Ads?

23 realwest  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:07:28am

Only in an article from AP would you find THIS line on a dating service:

Despite its fearsome reputation elsewhere, Hamas is known here for its cradle-to-grave welfare programs for the poor. It is a cornerstone of its political support in Gaza, where poverty is deepening as Israel and Egypt maintain an almost two-year blockade of the Hamas-run territory. Now, the group is branching out into matters of the heart.

[emphasis realwest]

24 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:07:33am

re: #16 buzzsawmonkey
Where do they get the money for these welfare programs? Why from dumbass EUnuchs, anti Israel support groups and the Useless Nitwits of Turtle Bay.

25 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:07:45am

re: #12 pingjockey

The 'common' Palis voted these murderers as their leadership.

re: #19 AemJeff

You (Aem) mean the Palis did NOT vote these thugs in? Who did then, the Amish !?!?!

26 opnion  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:07:48am

re: #21 poteen

Gazamatch.com

"Wives wanted. Must be able to cook, clean, assemmble crude explosive devices and hold me when I'm scared."

And must not look to fatwa in a stylish burqua.

27 brookly red  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:08:07am

re: #16 buzzsawmonkey

From the article:


Cradle-to-grave welfare programs? No wonder pro-Obama phonebanks were busy during the election; there's a certain harmonic convergence between the vision of the current President and Hamas operating procedure.

well in theroy O's programs would be paid for by taxing us & their programs are... never mind.

28 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:08:44am

re: #19 AemJeff

Thousands of gazan rockets have been launched at Israel. Israel finally said, "Enough!" Any country would.

29 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:08:47am

re: #25 sattv4u2

Has to be those Pesky Mennonites. Or those Loony Lutherans. Or those Creepy Catholics....

30 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:09:33am

re: #9 sattv4u2

“My brothers held their wives when they were scared

bad sentence structure. I don't know who was scared and being comforted. The wives, or those brave Hamas "soldiers"

MAMA ,,, HOLD ME !

Yes.

31 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:09:36am

re: #19 AemJeff
I don't see Israel strapping bombs to kids nor do I see Israel indiscriminately firing rockets into Gaza. I do see Israel retaliating after being attacked. I'm long past sympathizing with the poor Palis.

32 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:09:44am

Hamasniks forgetting that it's the Israelis who are supposed to be portrayed as racists.

Women also must describe their appearance and answer a killer question: "Do you consider yourself pretty according to Gaza standards?"

The ideal of beauty in Gaza means tall and fair-skinned with blue or green eyes and light-colored hair — and that's what men usually ask for. But most Gaza women have dark hair and bronze skin.

"If we see a girl that appears to match (a man), but she's not physically what he wants, I'll call him and say, 'Well, she's pretty, but she's dark.' Or 'she's short, but she's white'

33 Thanos  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:09:46am

re: #8 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hadid's the author of the piece

34 realwest  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:10:04am

re: #19 AemJeff
AemJeff


-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

Karma: -15
Registered since: Jan 31, 2009 at 7:56 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 7
No. of links posted: 0

Couldn't hold out as a sleeper anymore, could ya?

35 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:10:15am

re: #19 AemJeff

You sound just like lefties I argue with abut the same point. All the fault is one side and not the other.

Maybe you might be the one who has the faulty thinking if both sides find your "arguments" lacking.

36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:10:21am

re: #15 sattv4u2

Will you hold me if the bombs fall?

*(coy blinking of the eyes)*

37 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:10:57am

re: #32 jaunte

That was interesting- it's like they want Swedes, or something.

38 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:11:25am

re: #33 Thanos

Hadid's the author of the piece

I missed that, oops! I thought the writer of the piece was "biased idiot".

39 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:11:29am
40 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:11:52am

re: #37 Sharmuta
Caught that didja!?

41 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:11:56am

re: #25 sattv4u2

Of course they voted them in. And the Israelis voted Likud in. There's plenty of fault for both sides - demonizing the entire Palestinian population for that choice isn't an optimal point of view, I think.

42 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:12:09am

re: #39 buzzsawmonkey

"...Mr. Sandbar."

*Snickers*

43 realwest  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:12:22am

re: #32 jaunte
What? I think they need to run these ad's in Sweden or someplace! LOL!

44 poteen  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:12:39am

re: #26 opnion

MUST be too fatwa with own Kevlar burkha. Easier to slip behind.

45 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:13:32am

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Will you hold me if the bombs fall?

*(coy blinking of the eyes)*

"As long as you don't mind me whimpering like a little girl, I am only a Gazan male."

46 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:13:51am

re: #41 AemJeff
What part of unremitting attacks from Gaza into Israel don't you get?

47 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:13:58am

re: #23 realwest

Only in an article from AP would you find THIS line on a dating service:

Despite its fearsome reputation elsewhere, Hamas is known here for its cradle-to-grave welfare programs for the poor. It is a cornerstone of its political support in Gaza, where poverty is deepening as Israel and Egypt maintain an almost two-year blockade of the Hamas-run territory. Now, the group is branching out into matters of the heart.

[emphasis realwest]

"When they're not saving orphan bunnies and raising unicorns, those crazy kids at Hamas love to play matchmaker! Tra-la-la!"

48 brookly red  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:14:00am

re: #41 AemJeff

Of course they voted them in. And the Israelis voted Likud in. There's plenty of fault for both sides - demonizing the entire Palestinian population for that choice isn't an optimal point of view, I think.

There is no moral equivalence here, period.

49 Charles  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:14:22am

re: #6 AemJeff

You may have missed the fact that the Associated Press's Arab writers invariably work in a propaganda angle. Some of them have gone on record saying they consider it part of their job to be advocates for the cause.

And if you think a dating club run by Hamas is somehow a positive development in the lives of these women, I don't know what to tell you.

50 rightymouse  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:14:30am

"Most girls are married in matches set up by their mothers."

I thought marriages are arranged by the fathers?

51 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:14:38am
52 pat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:15:19am

I don't think they are looking for love.

53 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:15:42am

re: #6 AemJeff

Do you see both sides of the propaganda angle?

54 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:16:39am

hamas should put this dating thing on their tv station. Instead of 'Love Connection', hamas can have 'Love Explosion'.

55 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:16:48am

re: #41 AemJeff

Bullshit. It's the Paleostinians and their Arab patrons which perpetuate this.

56 pat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:17:06am

30 is a little late to start on the requisite 15 kids, but hey, anythings possible.

57 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:17:18am

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Will you hold me if the bombs fall?

*(coy blinking of the eyes)*

My arms aren't long enough to get around your waste

OUCH !


////

58 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:17:39am

re: #48 brookly red

Well, that's an assertion. Likud, and the Israeli right use other means (settlements, e.g.) but the intent is the same. You won't find me defending Hamas, or their murderous predecessors, but the Israeli right is deeply culpable.

59 realwest  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:17:55am

re: #41 AemJeff
Um, if the Dem's (against all odds, I must add) decided to start chucking a few thousand rockets into, oh I dunno, Canada or someplace) would you say you can't blame all those Dems who voted for Obama as CiC?
Give me a break. The Pali's in Gaza demanded the return of Gaza. Israel, against what I think was the majority opinon of it's defense experts, agreed. And in return those poor Pali's did in fact chuck thousands and thousands of rockets and mortars into Israel from.............Gaza.
There needs to be some accountability here and it sits squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinians. PERIOD.

60 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:17:57am

re: #45 FurryOldGuyJeans

"As long as you don't mind me whimpering like a little girl, I am only a Gazan male."

Whimpering? Hell, I'll be screaming like David Spade being hit with a taser!

61 latingent  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:18:00am

Lets enslave our women, shoot rockets at our neighbors and demand our own state. What a beautiful culture. At least the kids get to wear Halloween costumes, you know, road flares as bomb vests, cute jihadi face painting, AK 47`s in smaller .22 Long Rifle calibers...their futures are so bright.

62 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:18:03am

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Will you hold me if the bombs fall?

*(coy blinking of the eyes)*

Cue the Celine Dion music in the background.

63 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:18:35am

re: #41 AemJeff

If a car plowed through my house right now, I suppose some of the blame must fall on me for living in it.
No?

64 VegasRick[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:18:37am
65 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:18:47am

re: #58 AemJeff

I see you've done very weil since you signed up.

/

66 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:19:21am
67 debutaunt  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:19:26am

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Will you hold me if the bombs fall?

*(coy blinking of the eyes)*

Poor baby!

68 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:19:34am

re: #62 livefreeor die

EEEEWWWWWW!

69 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:19:40am

re: #41 AemJeff

Of course they voted them in. And the Israelis voted Likud in. There's plenty of fault for both sides - demonizing the entire Palestinian population for that choice isn't an optimal point of view, I think.

Okay. Lets start with some basics here
#1, do you beleive the Israelis have a right to a state in that region, or do you beleive it was "given to them" and "stolen" from the Palis as part of the 48 accords?

70 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:19:44am

re: #63 DEZes

If a car plowed through my house right now, I suppose some of the blame must fall on me for living in it.
No?

What were you thinking living so close to a road, Silly? ;)

71 realwest  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:19:45am

re: #63 DEZes
Much better said than I tried to in my #59.

72 zombie  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:19:54am

I was laughing about this Hamas matchmaker article yesterday when i first saw it. Particularly this part, which is actually a bit disturbing:

"Women also must describe their appearance and answer a killer question: "Do you consider yourself pretty according to Gaza standards?"

The ideal of beauty in Gaza means tall and fair-skinned with blue or green eyes and light-colored hair — and that's what men usually ask for. But most Gaza women have dark hair and bronze skin."

Now, why in the world would Gaza men in particular have a fetish for a female body-type/appearance which practically never occurs in Gaza women?

Is it, as the leftists would tell you, a remnant of "colonialism," when the appearance of the oocupier is considered "better" in some way? But if so -- what colonialists? The last time tall fair-haired people occupied Gaza was around 1200 AD when French Crusaders reigned in Gaza as a crusader state.

But if not that -- what? Are Gaza men fetishing Jewish women they fantasize about across the border, in their imagination highly sexualized and tall and fair -- or what?

Speculations welcomed.

73 jvic  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:20:01am

re: #41 AemJeff

Of course they voted them in. And the Israelis voted Likud in. There's plenty of fault for both sides - demonizing the entire Palestinian population for that choice isn't an optimal point of view, I think.

Ah...nuance!

And the wisdom of moral equivalence.

74 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:20:36am

re: #58 AemJeff

Well, that's an assertion. Likud, and the Israeli right use other means (settlements, e.g.) but the intent is the same. You won't find me defending Hamas, or their murderous predecessors, but the Israeli right is deeply culpable.

Dude, you should leave. Or you better start linking some facts pretty fucking quick.

75 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:20:48am

re: #58 AemJeff
You do realize of course the State of Israel is about the size of a phone booth. They gave back Gaza, the Sinai. How much more do you want them to give up? The aim of Hamas, et al is the destruction of Israel and all the Jews DEAD.

76 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:20:54am

From the article ....

The ideal of beauty in Gaza means tall and fair-skinned with blue or green eyes and light-colored hair — and that's what men usually ask for. But most Gaza women have dark hair and bronze skin.
"If we see a girl that appears to match (a man), but she's not physically what he wants, I'll call him and say, 'Well, she's pretty, but she's dark.' Or 'she's short, but she's white.' We encourage them to be a bit more realistic," Khalil said.


RACISTS! ..

/

77 poteen  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:21:15am

Try and imagine the dating page for Saraa(sp.?) the Hamas kiddie show hostess.
That would be a hoot.

78 realwest  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:21:37am

re: #65 Macker
Indeed, see my #34!

79 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:21:39am

re: #6 AemJeff

Propaganda? I know you think AP is a nest of traitors and fifth columnists, but do you really think that the description of civilians "hunkering down" during the shelling is inaccurate? There's something to be said, here, about at least trying to see both sides in this conflict. It seem to me that understanding the Palestinian leadership, particularly Hamas, as the thugs and killers that they are shouldn't lead to what sometimes reads as a pretty callous disregard for common Palestinians.

Who do you think elected Hamas?

80 Thanos  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:21:40am

In Jeff's minds [settlements == rockets, terror, murder, tyranny, repression]

81 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:21:48am

re: #59 realwest

Um, if the Dem's (against all odds, I must add) decided to start chucking a few thousand rockets into, oh I dunno, Canada or someplace) would you say you can't blame all those Dems who voted for Obama as CiC?
Give me a break. The Pali's in Gaza demanded the return of Gaza. Israel, against what I think was the majority opinon of it's defense experts, agreed. And in return those poor Pali's did in fact chuck thousands and thousands of rockets and mortars into Israel from.............Gaza.
There needs to be some accountability here and it sits squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinians. PERIOD.

If I could give you 10,000 updings I would!
(It used to be only 1,000. Inflation ya know!)

82 OIFVet[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:21:50am
83 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:22:09am

I'm willing to bet money that most of the men that look for a bride through this service are already married to another woman and are looking for a second or third wife and that the women are either divorced or unmarried and over 35 years old, two qualities which make them very undesirable in this society. I'm more interested in the details this AP writer is leaving out.

84 poteen  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:22:47am

re: #50 rightymouse

"Arranged" by mothers.

Ordered/ sold by their fathers.

85 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:22:51am

economic OT: Actual unemployment rate vs. Obama projections

Of course you can guess the results.

But don't worry about that, the pres is off worrying about something or other 10,000 miles from here. I guess the economy is an islam-dunk.

86 pat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:22:53am

This will make a fine subject for that deranged little girl and Assud, the Hamas Rabbit.

87 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:22:54am

re: #70 Sharmuta

What were you thinking living so close to a road, Silly? ;)

I know, I am so stupid. ;)

88 Last Mohican  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:23:07am

re: #6 AemJeff

Propaganda? I know you think AP is a nest of traitors and fifth columnists,

Well, they certainly have some columnists. But "nest of traitors"? Traitors to which country? What are you talking about?

but do you really think that the description of civilians "hunkering down" during the shelling is inaccurate?

I do. I saw photographs of big open-air markets going on, as usual, during Israel's military operation. I'm sure that some, indeed many Gazans were "hunkered down." But the implication that all of them were is incorrect. Furthermore, from what source is the "hundreds of civilians were killed" figure drawn? Perhaps from propagandists like Mads Gilbert, who claimed that over 99% of the Gazans killed were civilians? And what about the assertion that Gazans "didn't know where the bombs would fall next?" Where's the basis for the implication that Israel was shelling indiscriminately, without selecting Hamas targets?

No, sir or madam, this is just propaganda. There is certainly nothing to be gained by callous indifference to the plight of the "Palestinians" in Gaza. But in the long run, nobody is served by blindly accepting baseless anti-Israel propaganda in a quick attempt to achieve an appearance of occupying moral high-ground.

89 zombie  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:23:09am

re: #49 Charles

You may have missed the fact that the Associated Press's Arab writers invariably work in a propaganda angle. Some of them have gone on record saying they consider it part of their job to be advocates for the cause.

And if you think a dating club run by Hamas is somehow a positive development in the lives of these women, I don't know what to tell you.

I also noted the ridiculous propaganda angle -- "it's hard to meet your match in Gaza due to the OVERWHELMING OPPRESSION EVERYONE SUFFERS!"

Give me a break.

But also note that the article says, "Around 40 men a month turn to Tayseer in search of a wife." That is a tiny number. Places like eHarmony hook up about 40 people per second. Hamas' matchmaking company is a tiny tiny service whose significance is greatly overstated in this article.

90 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:23:14am

re: #71 realwest

Much better said than I tried to in my #59.

Why thank you.

91 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:23:20am

re: #59 realwest

You mean like the Sabra and Shatila Massacre in 1982? The building of settlement on land occupied by the Palestinians? Sharon's deliberate provocation at the Temple Mount? The Palestinians have had disgusting leadership since day one, there's no question. The Israelis have had their share of the same.

92 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:23:27am

re: #58 AemJeff

Well, that's an assertion. Likud, and the Israeli right use other means (settlements, e.g.) but the intent is the same. You won't find me defending Hamas, or their murderous predecessors, but the Israeli right is deeply culpable.

Jews building additional bathrooms and bedrooms = Palestinians blowing shit up?

Go piss up a rope.

93 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:23:28am

re: #83 amir

I'm willing to bet money that most of the men that look for a bride through this service are already married to another woman and are looking for a second or third wife and that the women are either divorced or unmarried and over 35 years old, two qualities which make them very undesirable in this society. I'm more interested in the details truththis AP writer is leaving out.

FIFY

94 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:23:39am

re: #41 AemJeff

I know you're taking incoming from all angles (now you know how an Isralei feels daily) but please answer my #69

95 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:23:59am
96 rain of lead  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:24:27am

re: #76 JacksonTn

morning jt

97 Last Mohican  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:24:39am

re: #41 AemJeff

Of course they voted them in. And the Israelis voted Likud in. There's plenty of fault for both sides - demonizing the entire Palestinian population for that choice isn't an optimal point of view, I think.

Did someone demonize the entire Palestinian population?

And how dare you equate Hamas, a genocidal terrorist group, with Likud, a political party whose actions you appear to disagree with?

You've stepped over the line from weak argument to offensiveness.

98 rightymouse  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:25:06am
The ideal of beauty in Gaza means tall and fair-skinned with blue or green eyes and light-colored hair — and that's what men usually ask for. But most Gaza women have dark hair and bronze skin.

Where do these Hamas males think they live? Sweden?

99 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:25:17am

re: #96 rain of lead

morning jt

RoL ... hey! ... beautiful day here ... just heading out ... hope you and your family have a great day! ...

100 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:25:35am

re: #92 Alouette

He forgot the Obama huts.

101 J.S.  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:25:51am

re: #69 sattv4u2

I believe you're attempting to "dialogue" with someone who wishes to equate Likud with HAMAS terrorists. It's the same old moral equivalency argument heard over and over again. Typically the speaker of the moral equivalency hasn't a clue, nor remembers actual events, but wishes to rewrite the History of the Middle East.

Here are some more (inconvenient facts): 1) Sharon did the Gaza disengagement and had all Israelis withdrawn from the Gaza Strip in 2005 (that was in the summer of 2005). Sharon was leader of the Likud party. 2) This caused a split in the Likud. The Kadima Party was formed in November 2005 3) Ariel Sharon had his first stroke in Dec. 2005. 4) Kadima Party came into power in 2006. 5) Jaunuary 2006, Gaza elects HAMAS terrorists.

102 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:25:56am

re: #91 AemJeff

You mean like the Sabra and Shatila Massacre in 1982? The building of settlement on land occupied by the Palestinians? Sharon's deliberate provocation at the Temple Mount? The Palestinians have had disgusting leadership since day one, there's no question. The Israelis have had their share of the same.

I don't have time for a reasoned and factual rebuttal so, let it suffice for me to tell you to go piss up a rope.

103 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:26:16am

re: #92 Alouette

Jews building additional bathrooms and bedrooms = Palestinians blowing shit up?

Go piss up a rope.

GMTA.

104 realwest  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:26:27am

re: #88 Last Mohican
Just excellent. Thanks for that.

105 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:26:37am

re: #58 AemJeff

Well, that's an assertion. Likud, and the Israeli right use other means (settlements, e.g.) but the intent is the same. You won't find me defending Hamas, or their murderous predecessors, but the Israeli right is deeply culpable.

How many settlements are there in Gaza?

106 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:26:38am

re: #91 AemJeff
The Temple mount...If I had been Moshe Dayan, all of the Muslims would've been sent to Jordan and that damn mosque razed to the ground.

107 Thanos  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:26:39am

So does aemjeff fit the standards for Gazan beauty? He's been at Huffpo a lot longer than here.

108 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:27:14am

re: #105 Alouette

How many settlements are there in Gaza?

Isn't it about the same as the number of working greenhouses?

109 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:27:46am

re: #101 J.S.

I believe you're attempting to "dialogue" with someone who wishes to equate Likud with HAMAS terrorists

Thats why I want to take it one question in sequence at a time

110 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:27:50am

re: #106 pingjockey

The Temple mount...If I had been Moshe Dayan, all of the Muslims would've been sent to Jordan and that damn mosque razed to the ground.

As should have been done back in 1967. Six Days, Bitch!

111 nyc redneck  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:27:53am

re: #58 AemJeff

Well, that's an assertion. Likud, and the Israeli right use other means (settlements, e.g.) but the intent is the same. You won't find me defending Hamas, or their murderous predecessors, but the Israeli right is deeply culpable.

why, because they want to live?

112 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:28:02am

re: #95 buzzsawmonkey

Here's a little cluebat for you, from the prior thread:

Regarding "settlements" and a "Middle East solution," if it were not that the Arabs are genocidal there would be absolutely no problem--either as regards "settlements" or the borders of the "Palestinian state" that so many people are hot for.

Were it possible for the Jews living in the West Bank to be as secure under the rule of law as the Arab citizens of Israel are--hell, if it were possible for them to be as secure under the rule of law as the "Palestinian" Arabs living under "occupation" are--it would make no difference whatsoever where, or when, the lines between two states were drawn.

The fact is, however, that the sticking point is not the Israelis' desire for peace, or their willingness to subject themselves to unreasonable demands in order to achieve it. The sticking point is that the Arabs demand that any land over which they are given sovereignty be handed to them ethnically cleansed of Jews--with the understanding that the life and property of any Jews in any land over which they gain control will be forfeit, if it has not been rendered judenrein prior to their control.

The fact that the "peace process" is nothing more than an effort to accommodate genocidal hatred without making mention of that fact is the giant elephant in the room that everyone keeps pretending does not exist.

This.

113 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:28:03am

re: #72 zombie

"Women also must describe their appearance and answer a killer question: "Do you consider yourself pretty according to Gaza standards?"

The ideal of beauty in Gaza means tall and fair-skinned with blue or green eyes and light-colored hair — and that's what men usually ask for. But most Gaza women have dark hair and bronze skin."

Now, why in the world would Gaza men in particular have a fetish for a female body-type/appearance which practically never occurs in Gaza women?

Maybe it's cuz they have no idea what women actually look like under those sacks, and all they have to go on is Internet pr0n.

I've seen Arab-ethnic (ok, Lebanese) women in the US who are gorgeous, and recall some of those "cedar revolution" pics here on LGF from a few years ago, to the same end. OK, even more European influence in Lebanon, and a lot more recent than the Crusades! But even so.

114 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:28:26am

re: #107 Thanos

[deleted]

115 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:28:27am

re: #91 AemJeff

Ah yes, the great wisdom of moral relevance for the sake of moral relevance. Before we go tit-for-tat on all that:

Is the story a display of propaganda or not?

It seems your are saying 'yes, it's propaganda, but...'

116 rightymouse  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:28:38am

re: #84 poteen

"Arranged" by mothers.

Ordered/ sold by their fathers.

I can't imagine the mothers having any say at all.

117 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:28:48am

re: #58 AemJeff

Do you work for a media outlet? You sure push the "It is all Israel's Fault" meme well.

118 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:29:00am

re: #107 Thanos

So does aemjeff fit the standards for Gazan beauty? He's been at Huffpo a lot longer than here.

Ohhhh ,, VERY interesting fond !

take $100 out of petty cash , GREAT work !

119 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:29:05am

re: #107 Thanos

That figures.

120 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:29:08am

re: #92 Alouette

Alouette, the settlements are re: #97 Last Mohican

I suggest you read a bit about the history of the formation State of Israel, and Ariel Sharon's personal history before you "how dare you" me. Likud has rotts as a terrorist organization just as Hamas does. Try reading up about the Irgun, for instance.

121 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:29:13am

re: #111 nyc redneck

why, because they want to live?

NO Mr. Bond, they expect them to die!

122 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:29:52am

re: #118 sattv4u2

Ohhhh ,, VERY interesting foind !

take $100 out of petty cash , GREAT work !

PIMF

123 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:00am

BBIAB

124 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:12am

re: #116 rightymouse

I can't imagine the mothers having any say at all.

Actually- no, they play a large roll due to the sexual segregation.

125 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:16am

Who wants popcorn?

126 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:23am

re: #72 zombie

The last time tall fair-haired people occupied Gaza was around 1200 AD when French Crusaders reigned in Gaza as a crusader state.

Or the British in 1947.

127 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:25am

re: #107 Thanos
Ya get a gold star for research!

128 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:27am

re: #120 AemJeff

Alouette, the settlements are re: #97 Last Mohican

I suggest you read a bit about the history of the formation State of Israel, and Ariel Sharon's personal history before you "how dare you" me. Likud has rotts as a terrorist organization just as Hamas does. Try reading up about the Irgun, for instance.

Hoo, boy! For you to preach to anyone here, let alone Alouette, is laughable.

129 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:30am
130 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:32am

re: #120 AemJeff

May I please have an answer to my simple question in #69

131 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:46am

re: #125 DEZes

Who wants popcorn?

[holds up hand] Me! ME!

132 realwest  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:52am

Well y'all it's been great as usual but I gotta go now. I hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

133 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:30:59am

re: #120 AemJeff

Oops, that was "roots", not "rotts."

134 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:31:00am

Seems to me, the regimentation in traditional Islam is diametrically opposed to the concept of spiritual growth -- either in the group or the individual.

135 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:31:15am

re: #120 AemJeff

You assume a lot when you advise anyone here to "read up" on the history of the area.

136 Thanos  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:31:44am

re: #119 VegasRick

That figures.

Looking at his blog he seems ok for a lefty, don't chase him away yet...

137 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:31:53am

re: #134 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Seems to me, the regimentation in traditional Islam is diametrically opposed to the concept of spiritual growth -- either in the group or the individual.

Indeed, I would equate them to the Borg.

138 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:32:02am

re: #135 jaunte

You assume a lot when you advise anyone here to "read up" on the history of the area.

No shit.

139 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:32:20am

re: #120 AemJeff
Yep. They were. Wonder why? The Palis could've had a state years ago. except for one little detail, they want ALL of Israel.

140 doppelganglander  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:32:57am

re: #19 AemJeff

That's a striking post-to-karma ratio you have there. It might be time for some self-examination.

141 avanti  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:33:13am

re: #92 Alouette

Jews building additional bathrooms and bedrooms = Palestinians blowing shit up?

Go piss up a rope.

I know you are just trying to make a point, but added bedrooms and bathrooms would not be a issue, but building new apartment buildings, home and stores that is going on in the name of natural growth is. Agree or not, all of the recent POTUS's have tried to stop settlement expansion and called it a impediment to peace.

142 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:33:42am

re: #120 AemJeff

Alouette, the settlements are re: #97 Last Mohican

I suggest you read a bit about the history of the formation State of Israel, and Ariel Sharon's personal history before you "how dare you" me. Likud has rotts as a terrorist organization just as Hamas does. Try reading up about the Irgun, for instance.

Many here do NOT have to "read up on it". They have LIVED it

once again, an answer to my #69 is requested please

143 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:33:45am

re: #140 doppelganglander

That's a striking post-to-karma ratio you have there. It might be time for some self-examination.

His mommy told him to stop doing that or else his palms would get hairy.

144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:34:26am

re: #140 doppelganglander

Just needs to go to a place that has karma scores and a disdain for Jews.

145 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:34:33am

re: #69 sattv4u2

I think the Israelis have been there for seventy years. It's a fait accompli. I have no strong opinion about the whether the land was "stolen," - the history is a mess. Much of my family is Jewish and the memory of the holocaust if strong here. Something had to be done at the time. If anynody is to blame about how it happened, I'd say the blame the Brits for screwing it up.

146 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:34:39am
147 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:34:51am

re: #141 avanti

I know you are just trying to make a point, but added bedrooms and bathrooms would not be a issue, but building new apartment buildings, home and stores that is going on in the name of natural growth is. Agree or not, all of the recent POTUS's have tried to stop settlement expansion and called it a impediment to peace.

POTUS's prefer to speak with people they think will listen.

148 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:35:12am

re: #142 sattv4u2

I've already lost track of the number of times you've asked it to respond. It won't.

149 rightymouse  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:35:15am

re: #124 Sharmuta

Actually- no, they play a large roll due to the sexual segregation.


But how would the mothers know anything about available males for their daughters?

150 poteen  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:35:34am

re: #116 rightymouse

None whatsoever.

151 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:35:35am

re: #133 AemJeff

Oops, that was "roots", not "rotts."

Really? You post some vile shit like that and then go back to correct the spelling? Go back to mommy's basement.

152 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:35:50am

re: #141 avanti
How much more do the Palis need? You are saying The Jews that have been there for over 2000 years do not have a right to their own land?

153 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:35:50am

re: #145 AemJeff

Try 3,000.

154 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:00am

re: #145 AemJeff

I think the Israelis have been there for seventy years. It's a fait accompli. I have no strong opinion about the whether the land was "stolen," - the history is a mess. Much of my family is Jewish and the memory of the holocaust if strong here. Something had to be done at the time. If anynody is to blame about how it happened, I'd say the blame the Brits for screwing it up.

Nice dodge, but it is really a yes or no question, so I'll ask the pertinent part again
do you beleive the Israelis have a right to a state in that region

155 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:07am

re: #72 zombie

Speculations welcomed.


Many people, in different cultures, like "the exotic look" in sexual partners. I think that's all this is. I've heard the same thing of Japanese men--many prefer blond/ blue eyed women.

156 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:09am

re: #120 AemJeff

I have read up on the history of the area, did you? So far the way you talk shows you only read the FMSM accounts.

But why argue with a flaming asshole? That is one of the surest ways of getting burned.

157 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:14am

re: #6 AemJeff

Propaganda? I know you think AP is a nest of traitors and fifth columnists, but do you really think that the description of civilians "hunkering down" during the shelling is inaccurate? There's something to be said, here, about at least trying to see both sides in this conflict. It seem to me that understanding the Palestinian leadership, particularly Hamas, as the thugs and killers that they are shouldn't lead to what sometimes reads as a pretty callous disregard for common Palestinians.

Of course it's not inaccurate, but it seems such a non sequitur from the subject of dating, that it stands out, and immediately reminds everyone of the political issues involved. And then the idea of dating in such a poisonous atmosphere, where the men and/or women are probably involved in the very politics that causes the shelling - makes the whole thing absurd.

158 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:29am

re: #141 avanti

Settlement expansion is just an excuse, it's displacement (in psychological terms).

The cabal governing the Palestinians could have built there just the same instead of forging terrorism and perpetual war.

159 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:30am

re: #149 rightymouse

But how would the mothers know anything about available males for their daughters?

The mothers of the males are looking too.

160 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:35am

re: #148 Macker

I've already lost track of the number of times you've asked it to respond. It won't.

it did ,, it dodged ,,,I'm re-asking ,, AGAIN

161 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:39am

re: #152 pingjockey

Of course it doesn't think that way. In its eyes, it's because they are JOOOOOOs!

162 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:36:44am

re: #136 Thanos

Looking at his blog he seems ok for a lefty, don't chase him away yet...

OK. I'm gonna sit out for awhile.

163 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:37:46am

re: #141 avanti

I know you are just trying to make a point, but added bedrooms and bathrooms would not be a issue, but building new apartment buildings, home and stores that is going on in the name of natural growth is. Agree or not, all of the recent POTUS's have tried to stop settlement expansion and called it a impediment to peace.

Additions to existing houses to accommodate a growing family is "natural growth" and therefore A BIG ISSUE.

164 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:38:01am

re: #145 AemJeff

I think the Israelis have been there for seventy years. It's a fait accompli. I have no strong opinion about the whether the land was "stolen," - the history is a mess. Much of my family is Jewish and the memory of the holocaust if strong here. Something had to be done at the time. If anynody is to blame about how it happened, I'd say the blame the Brits for screwing it up.

No. Blame Haj Amin al-Husseini. But, first, do a little research.

165 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:38:32am

re: #161 Macker
If Israel was the bad guys they're made out to be, Gaza and the Sinai would be chock full of settlements.

166 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:38:33am
167 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:38:54am

re: #145 AemJeff

I think the Israelis have been there for seventy years. It's a fait accompli. I have no strong opinion about the whether the land was "stolen," - the history is a mess. Much of my family is Jewish and the memory of the holocaust if strong here. Something had to be done at the time. If anynody is to blame about how it happened, I'd say the blame the Brits for screwing it up.

The Jews have been there for THOUSANDS OF YEARS you dipshit.

168 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:39:53am

re: #167 Alouette

The Jews have been there for THOUSANDS OF YEARS you dipshit.

Its being very quiet, preparing to flounce?

169 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:39:58am

Sp what bullshit excuse are you gonna come up with now, AemJeff?

170 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:40:00am

re: #154 sattv4u2

Horsecrap. I gave an accurate answer to the question. The deep point is that it doesn't matter. They are there now, and aren't leaving. Nor do I think that they should. The moral question from 1948 is beyond my ability to judge.

I'm glad you find moral clarity to be a simple thing to find.

171 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:40:02am

re: #58 AemJeff

Well, that's an assertion. Likud, and the Israeli right use other means (settlements, e.g.) but the intent is the same. You won't find me defending Hamas, or their murderous predecessors, but the Israeli right is deeply culpable.

The settlements has always been a canard. Over the decades I have heard the argument that:
Israeli settlements in the Sinai were obstacle to peace.
Fact: When Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt, Israel removed all the
settlements
Israeli settlements in Gaza were an obstacle to peace.
Fact: When Israel turned over Gaza to the PA, Israel removed all the
settlements.
The settlements have never been and never will be an obstacle to peace.

172 avanti  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:40:09am

re: #152 pingjockey

How much more do the Palis need? You are saying The Jews that have been there for over 2000 years do not have a right to their own land?

It's not up to me to decide. The Geneva convention, the UN and the US have all agreed that the Israeli's do not have a right to keep settlements on occupied lands.

"Geneva Conventions

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states:

The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."

173 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:40:09am

re: #165 pingjockey

If Israel was the bad guys they're made out to be, Gaza and the Sinai and Egypt and Syria and Jordan,,,,,,would be chock full of settlements.

to the vistors ,,,,,,,,,

FTFY

174 doppelganglander  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:40:15am

re: #155 transient

Many people, in different cultures, like "the exotic look" in sexual partners. I think that's all this is. I've heard the same thing of Japanese men--many prefer blond/ blue eyed women.

And lots of Anglo men like Asian women.

175 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:40:17am

re: #145 AemJeff

big picture-medium picture-big picture-small picture-medium picture-small picture-big picture-medium picture-big picture-small picture... repeat.

Again, was this story propaganda or not? If no, we can't have a reasonable discussion. If yes, then what is the problem with acknowledging that it's propaganda?

176 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:40:44am

re: #164 MandyManners

No. Blame Haj Amin al-Husseini. But, first, do a little research.

Why should he? He gets all he needs to know from the FMSM.

No wonder he comes off as such a flaming asshole.

177 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:40:50am

re: #170 AemJeff

The moral question from 1948 is beyond my ability to judge.

So- it's above your pay grade?

178 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:41:13am

re: #145 AemJeff

I think the Israelis have been there for seventy years. It's a fait accompli. I have no strong opinion about the whether the land was "stolen," - the history is a mess.

For the record here, I've been following the history of the area since I was in high school in the Fifties.

Your statement about "the history" appears to imply that you don't agree with what (little) you've read.

/re "little", the 70 years was the first tip-off

179 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:41:26am

re: #170 AemJeff

Horsecrap. I gave an accurate answer to the question. The deep point is that it doesn't matter. They are there now, and aren't leaving. Nor do I think that they should. The moral question from 1948 is beyond my ability to judge.

I'm glad you find moral clarity to be a simple thing to find.

still, there isn't a YES or NO to be found in that answer

telling ,,, very telling

180 rightymouse  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:41:54am

re: #150 poteen

None whatsoever.

That's my understanding.

181 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:41:54am

re: #168 DEZes

"The Israelis" are not "The Jews." Israel has existed as a state since 1948. Don't play silly word games to try and score points.

182 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:41:55am

re: #177 Sharmuta

So- it's above your pay grade?

If I could give you 10,000 updings I would!

183 opnion  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:42:03am

Along the lines that we are talking here, I caught some of the Sunday morning talk shows. I am take with hoe bold that the Israeli bashing has become.
Cynthia tucker , Mara Liason etc.
I do believe tha Obamas speech in Cairo has emboldened some of this.

184 avanti  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:42:31am

re: #163 Alouette

Additions to existing houses to accommodate a growing family is "natural growth" and therefore A BIG ISSUE.

My point was that it is not as big a issue as the continued building of apartment buildings and the like against the wishes of the US and the International community.

185 Mad Mullah  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:42:40am

How romantic. :-)

They wouldn't need anybody to hold onto while hunkered down in their homes and shelters if they hadn't elected Hamas terrorists whose style of governing consists of launching thousands of rockets towards their neighbor.

If a Hamas male has a hard time finding female companionship, they can always dress up their donkey in a fashionable head to toe burkha, hardly anybody would notice the difference.

186 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:42:46am

re: #140 doppelganglander

That's a striking post-to-karma ratio you have there. It might be time for some self-examination.

He's simply being misunderstood here.
/

187 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:42:47am

re: #172 avanti

It's not up to me to decide. The Geneva convention, the UN and the US have all agreed that the Israeli's do not have a right to keep settlements on occupied lands.

"Geneva Conventions

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states:

The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."

The Geneva Conventions Article 49 refers to FORCED RELOCATION. It has nothing to do with individuals moving of their own free will.

188 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:43:51am

re: #181 AemJeff

"The Israelis" are not "The Jews." Israel has existed as a state since 1948. Don't play silly word games to try and score points.

What were Jews living in the Holy Land known as before 1948? PALESTINIANS.

189 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:04am

re: #181 AemJeff

"The Israelis" are not "The Jews." Israel has existed as a state since 1948. Don't play silly word games to try and score points.

It's a fait accompli.
I have no strong opinion about the whether the land was "stolen,"
- the history is a mess.


uh huh !

190 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:10am

re: #181 AemJeff

"The Israelis" are not "The Jews." Israel has existed as a state since 1948. Don't play silly word games to try and score points.

Silly word games, are you that dense.
And who the hell are you to tell me what to do.
Go fuck yourself.

191 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:10am

re: #177 Sharmuta

Craven propaganda is above his ability to judge as well.

192 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:11am

re: #181 AemJeff

Pat Buchanan, is that you?

193 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:17am

re: #188 Alouette

What were Jews living in the Holy Land known as before 1948? PALESTINIANS.

Amish

194 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:20am

re: #186 unrealizedviewpoint

He's It's simply being misunderstood here.
/

There, fixed that for ya!

195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:28am

re: #155 transient

So do professional athletes.

196 rightymouse  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:46am

re: #159 Sharmuta

The mothers of the males are looking too.


Perhaps. But everything I've read so far indicates that the father is the one who chooses the husband and as misongynistic as the cultures tend to be, I can't imagine the father asking his wife what she thought or taking her advice on marriage in the first place.

197 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:44:59am

re: #181 AemJeff

"The Israelis" are not "The Jews." Israel has existed as a state since 1948. Don't play silly word games to try and score points.

What's the other state that disputes the land, and how long has it existed?

198 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:45:07am

re: #172 avanti

"Geneva Conventions

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states:

The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."

So who, exactly, has been deported? The Palestinians are still living in their towns, and the refugee camps that the Arab nations established.

Who has been transported? Jews were not forced to settle in the West Bank and Gaza. At certain times, some were given incentives, but there was no transport.

The article was written in the shadow of the Shoah, when civilians (read, Jews) were forcibly transported to labor and death camps.

You are mistaken if you think the Geneva Convention applies to the territories.

199 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:45:26am

re: #192 FurryOldGuyJeans

Pat Buchanan, is that you?

Or it could be James "Fuck the Jews" Baker. Perhaps Ron Paul?

200 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:45:28am
201 zombie  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:45:42am

re: #113 itellu3times

Maybe it's cuz they have no idea what women actually look like under those sacks, and all they have to go on is Internet pr0n.

I've seen Arab-ethnic (ok, Lebanese) women in the US who are gorgeous, and recall some of those "cedar revolution" pics here on LGF from a few years ago, to the same end. OK, even more European influence in Lebanon, and a lot more recent than the Crusades! But even so.

The "Lebanese protest babes" you are referring to, including Lebanese-Americans, are generally not Arab. Nor or they descended from crusaders. Generally, there is an ethnic division in Lebanon that matches the religious division. Aborignal Lebanese were there long long before the later Arab invasions in parts of Lebanon; those modern descendants of aboriginal Lebanese are genrally Christian; the Arabs are generally Muslim. Most of the Lebanese who emigrated to America in the 20th century were the Christian Lebanese, as were the majority of the pro-Democracy protesters. It is the pro-Hezbollah Lebanese in the south who are the Arabs.

Modern consensus is that the original Lebanese are the descendants of the Phoenicians, and/or the "sea people," i.e. the Minoans.

At the time of the democracy protests in Beirut, I posted some side-by-side comparisons of "Lebanese protest babes" and Minoan frescoes that were astoundingly similar. I was convinced.

202 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:45:45am

re: #193 sattv4u2

Amish

And here I thought they were Lutherans. *slaps forehead*

203 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:46:36am

re: #172 avanti
Again with the occupied lands crap. THE JEWS WERE THERE FIRST! It is their land. There are artifacts showing a Jewish presence there thousands of years ago. Show me an indigineous Pali coin from the Greek or Roman era. The UN is worthless and given half a chance will let a 2nd Holocaust happen.

204 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:46:39am

re: #184 avanti

My point was that it is not as big a issue as the continued building of apartment buildings and the like against the wishes of the US and the International community.

Like the huge, illegal buildings the Arabs are constructing all over Israel?

205 SixDegrees  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:46:47am

re: #6 AemJeff

Propaganda? I know you think AP is a nest of traitors and fifth columnists, but do you really think that the description of civilians "hunkering down" during the shelling is inaccurate? There's something to be said, here, about at least trying to see both sides in this conflict. It seem to me that understanding the Palestinian leadership, particularly Hamas, as the thugs and killers that they are shouldn't lead to what sometimes reads as a pretty callous disregard for common Palestinians.

The passage in question has nothing to do with the topic of the article. 'Propaganda' describes it perfectly. There is no contextual reason for it to be there otherwise.

206 opnion  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:47:03am

re: #192 FurryOldGuyJeans

Pat Buchanan, is that you?

Surprisingly enough, on the Mclaughlin Group last night , Elenor Clift was so out of control pro Muslim & praising Obama, that even Buchanon went the other way some.

207 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:47:06am

re: #202 FurryOldGuyJeans

And here I thought they were Lutherans. *slaps forehead*

Alpha-Centurions I tells ya.

208 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:47:35am

re: #203 pingjockey

10,000 updings!

209 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:47:45am

re: #154 sattv4u2

Nice dodge, but it is really a yes or no question, so I'll ask the pertinent part again
do you beleive the Israelis have a right to a state in that region

Hey wait a minute, I'm just about as pro-Israel as anyone, but fwiw I don't much like to make any claims as to "rights". Do us European descended types have any "rights" to the United States? Just sort of happened, y'know, and any claims that we should up and go home and give it back to the indigenes who were here for the previous 30,000 years are just - unrealistic.

And apparently there was hardly anybody at all living in the areas of Israel when Mark Twain visited there in the nineteenth century. The Zionist project to remake an ancient nation, had very little to start with, and very little to conflict with. A reasonable native population of as many Jews and Moslems (and Christians) who happened to be on hand, might just have welcomed any kind of sustained effort to improve the property. But no, the Moslems were nasty from the start, dar al-Islam and all that, I guess.

Anyway, "rights", I think, is the wrong way to look at it.

210 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:48:09am

re: #205 SixDegrees

please see my #15

211 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:48:44am

re: #196 rightymouse

Perhaps. But everything I've read so far indicates that the father is the one who chooses the husband and as misongynistic as the cultures tend to be, I can't imagine the father asking his wife what she thought or taking her advice on marriage in the first place.

The father has the final say, but often times, the mothers are the first contacts because of the segregation. Like in Saudi Arabia- there are very few times the sexes are allowed to co-mingle. Weddings is one. But often times in the magic kingdom, it's the female gatherings where the mother of the groom serves as the eyes.

212 avanti  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:48:51am

re: #187 Alouette

The Geneva Conventions Article 49 refers to FORCED RELOCATION. It has nothing to do with individuals moving of their own free will.

Then what about the US pressure to enforce the UN resolutions if you make that reading of the Geneva convention ? Even Bush called the settlements a impediment to peace.
BTW, don't take my comments to mean that I think the Israeli's should withdraw without a iron clad peace agreement, just stop expanding while talking as they've agreed to as recently as Annapolis.

213 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:49:06am

re: #207 DEZes

Alpha-Centurions I tells ya.

Man that was a strange comic.

214 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:49:33am

re: #205 SixDegrees

The passage in question has nothing to do with the topic of the article. 'Propaganda' describes it perfectly. There is no contextual reason for it to be there otherwise.

Shhhh! You are only confusing it with facts and logic.

215 rightymouse  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:50:02am

re: #211 Sharmuta

The father has the final say, but often times, the mothers are the first contacts because of the segregation. Like in Saudi Arabia- there are very few times the sexes are allowed to co-mingle. Weddings is one. But often times in the magic kingdom, it's the female gatherings where the mother of the groom serves as the eyes.


Ya learn something new every day. :)

216 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:50:06am

re: #205 SixDegrees

The passage in question has nothing to do with the topic of the article. 'Propaganda' describes it perfectly. There is no contextual reason for it to be there otherwise.

Bingo! That's how I saw the intent of this thread, to expose the blatant propagandizing by the newsies at every opportunity.

217 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:50:18am

re: #205 SixDegrees


There is no contextual reason for it to be there otherwise.

I note your civil tone. Thanks. It seems to me that that is an arguable point. If you can reasonable assert that the shellings are a significant factor in the lives of Palestinian civilians, then it really doesn't seem to be a non sequitur.

218 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:50:22am

re: #213 Macker

(*nerd alert*)

219 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:50:34am

I hope nobody minds if I return On-Topic.
Using google translation tool I found and translated this dating service web page:
[Link: www.tayseer.ps...]

"The spread of the phenomenon of spinsterhood is clearly a noticeable among girls, in addition to many Divorced women, widows and wives of martyrs who lost their safe haven and become the unknown awaiting determination was important to search for solutions to these important segments of society"
Like I suspected. We're talking about women who are not virgins, thus their difficulty finding a husband.
I had to look spinsterhood up though. From wikipedia: "The Spinsterhood is an ... order of extraterrestrial female warriors". Who knew?

Anyway, I think it's ok that the Hamas is trying to arrange weddings for women who cannot find husbands because they are not virgins (btw most of the men are cripples I understand) but this is precisely the kind of detail an AP writer should find interesting but because is biased will omit these little details that paint his society in a bad light to western progressives.

220 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:50:45am

"Looks like meats back on the menu boys"

221 avanti  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:51:15am

re: #204 Alouette

Like the huge, illegal buildings the Arabs are constructing all over Israel?

I am unaware of the illegal Arab buildings, link ?

222 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:51:36am

Could be an honor killing in Tahani's future.

223 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:51:37am

re: #213 Macker

Man that was a strange comic.

Thats scary. ;)

224 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:51:59am

re: #212 avanti
Jesus in the Haymow! It takes two to have peace. Since 1948, the State of Israel has been basically in a state of war with its neighbors. There never will be a Iron Clad peace agreement, ever.

225 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:52:35am

re: #215 rightymouse

There are some books out there that discuss it.

226 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:52:38am

re: #91 AemJeff

You mean like the Sabra and Shatila Massacre in 1982? The building of settlement on land occupied by the Palestinians? Sharon's deliberate provocation at the Temple Mount? The Palestinians have had disgusting leadership since day one, there's no question. The Israelis have had their share of the same.

Aem, you forgot to include that the Jews are responsible for the sinking of the Titanic. (I think that is joke #27 on the official overused joke list).

227 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:52:44am

re: #217 AemJeff

It is only significant because there are constant rocket attacks against Israeli settlements without end.

But I know you won't recognize that simple little factoid.

228 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:53:05am

re: #212 avanti

Then what about the US pressure to enforce the UN resolutions if you make that reading of the Geneva convention ? Even Bush called the settlements a impediment to peace.
BTW, don't take my comments to mean that I think the Israeli's should withdraw without a iron clad peace agreement, just stop expanding while talking as they've agreed to as recently as Annapolis.

But the Palestinians have violated every aspect of their side of these agreements, why should the Israelis pay them any attention?

229 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:53:20am

re: #212 avanti

just stop expanding while talking as they've agreed to as recently as Annapolis.

They've done that time and again

Whats the classic definition of insanity?
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result!

230 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:54:21am

re: #219 amir

That's a good point, in addition to pointing out how these women don't have husbands to hunker down with because you never know when the bombs will drop.

I don't think AemJeff would notice that.

231 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:54:21am

re: #217 AemJeff

... the shellings are a significant factor in the lives of Palestinian civilians ....

Yes, they WERE that, but you didn't address the precise topic of the article.

Were the shellings a significant factor in the selection of method in searching for a husband?

232 rightymouse  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:55:12am

re: #225 Sharmuta

There are some books out there that discuss it.

Am trying to finish a bio on Ben Franklin right now. Any suggestions for a book that mentions this? The last one I read that had anything to do with the ME and Islam was "Infidel".

233 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:55:52am

re: #231 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Maybe these women can't find husbands cause all of the eligible bachelors were Darwin award winners?!

234 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:56:10am

re: #212 avanti

Then what about the US pressure to enforce the UN resolutions if you make that reading of the Geneva convention ? Even Bush called the settlements a impediment to peace.
BTW, don't take my comments to mean that I think the Israeli's should withdraw without a iron clad peace agreement, just stop expanding while talking as they've agreed to as recently as Annapolis.

Jewish settlements are not an impediment to peace. Arab refusal to accept a Jewish state is the impediment to peace. Did you not read Krauthammer's article on Friday?

235 avanti  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:56:49am

re: #224 pingjockey

Jesus in the Haymow! It takes two to have peace. Since 1948, the State of Israel has been basically in a state of war with its neighbors. There never will be a Iron Clad peace agreement, ever.

OK, I'll drop my comments but with but one clarification. I support my government position on settlements. It has opposed settlements for decades, both Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals have tried to pressure Israel to stop exspansion. I simple agree with that position.

236 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:58:19am

re: #209 itellu3times

Fair point.

Okay, so following that trek, yes the Euros can claim a "right" to the USA. The USA as current "owners" of this state then have the 'right" to defend ourslves against that try BY the Euros.

237 avanti  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:58:48am

re: #234 Alouette

Jewish settlements are not an impediment to peace. Arab refusal to accept a Jewish state is the impediment to peace. Did you not read Krauthammer's article on Friday?

Bush used the word impediment, I'd assume you'd trust his opinion on the issue over a columnist.

238 poteen  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:58:59am

re: #224 pingjockey

Jesus in the Haymow! It takes two to have peace. Since 1948, the State of Israel has been basically in a state of war with its neighbors. There never will be a Iron Clad peace agreement, ever.

Nope. But someday there will be a winner.

239 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:59:17am
240 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:59:19am

re: #233 pingjockey

Maybe these women can't find husbands cause all of the eligible bachelors were Darwin award winners?!

That was my near-instantaneous thought while reading.

241 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:59:38am

re: #227 FurryOldGuyJeans

Furry, you're putting words in my mouth. The rockets are not defensible, and haven't said a word trying to do so. The Israelis have a right to defend themselves. I haven't tried to contradict that. What can be argued is the scale of Israeli responses - but I haven't really argued even that. What I have said is that a lefty defending the Palestinians exclusively and a righty doing the same regarding the Isarelis sound pretty much the same to me. Both wrong. Is that a simple moral equivalence? I don't think so - you obviously disagree.

242 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:59:42am

re: #235 avanti
The settlements are a red herring used by Hamas and the other terrorist enablers. It is bullshit.

243 EaterOfFood  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:00:14am

re: #120 AemJeff

Alouette, the settlements are re: #97 Last Mohican

I suggest you read a bit about the history of the formation State of Israel, and Ariel Sharon's personal history before you "how dare you" me. Likud has rotts as a terrorist organization just as Hamas does. Try reading up about the Irgun, for instance.

Go piss up a rope, climb it, and lick it.

All statements in support of the "Palestinians" are hate speech in my book.

244 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:00:37am

re: #235 avanti

OK, I'll drop my comments but with but one clarification. I support my government position on settlements. It has opposed settlements for decades, both Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals have tried to pressure Israel to stop exspansion. I simple agree with that position.

But there is no logic to the position, and "your government"s position on it may itself be an impediment to peace.

It made a little bit of sense at one point in time, maybe up through the start of the 2000 intifada, but enough Pali attacks on Israelis on the west bank and in Tel Aviv pizza parlors, and conditions have changed. Let's say the Palestinians and other Arabs had 1967 through 2000 to make peace at the cost of some or all of the settlements being abandoned. Well, Israel gave that a shot in 2005, pulling out of Gaza, and how did that work out? What sane person would demand they do more of that now, in the West Bank?

245 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:00:56am

re: #235 avanti

OK, I'll drop my comments but with but one clarification. I support my government position on settlements. It has opposed settlements for decades, both Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals have tried to pressure Israel to stop exspansion. I simple agree with that position.

What stopped the Palis from signing a peace agreement each time the Israelis (under prssure from both D and R presidents) halted the settelments?

246 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:01:23am

re: #237 avanti

Try to imagine what would have happened the past forty years if Israel had not built a single settlement over the green line. Do you think there would have been peace by now? If yes, what do you think the settlement would have been?

247 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:01:40am

re: #237 avanti

Bush used the word impediment, I'd assume you'd trust his opinion on the issue over a columnist.

I don't agree that "settlements" are an "impediment to peace" just because Obama or Bush or Carter said so. It is pure bullshit no matter how many politicians and Saudi buttkissers make that claim. There are no "settlements" in Gaza so why isn't there peacy-peacy-wonderful peaceness over there?

248 avanti  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:01:56am

re: #239 buzzsawmonkey

Go ahead. But the position is wrong, and is based upon the fundamentally flawed reasoning that peace is threatened by where people live, rather than by the fact that their neighbors are so insanely genocidal as to want to murder them.

OK, fair enough, if you believe our government has been wrong for decades, I'm certainly not going to change your mind.

249 zombie  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:01:59am
250 SixDegrees  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:02:02am

re: #214 FurryOldGuyJeans

Shhhh! You are only confusing it with facts and logic.

Sorry. Next time, I'll pound my head on the concrete patio a few times before responding, just to even things out.

251 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:02:45am

re: #241 AemJeff
The scale of the IDF responses amazes me. If this was happening in a US border town, and the Prez didn't go in and level the attackers, he would be impeached. The Israelis have been quite restrained.

252 EaterOfFood  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:03:54am

re: #203 pingjockey

The UN is worthless and given half a chance will let a 2nd Holocaust happen.

The UN, given half a chance, will participate in a 2nd Holocaust.

253 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:04:18am
254 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:05:22am

re: #241 AemJeff

What can be argued is the scale of Israeli responses

What kind of national defense clap trap is that?

You punched me in the eye as a prelude to trying to destroy me (which is still in my charter) so I can only punch you in the eye in response!

255 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:05:22am

re: #253 buzzsawmonkey

That was perfect.

256 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:05:27am

BTW, Bush: "called Israeli settlement expansion an "impediment" to the success of revived peace efforts and urged the Jerusalem to follow through on its pledge to dismantle unauthorized settler outposts.

That's not quite the same thing as saying the settlement are an impedimant to peace.

257 Last Mohican  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:05:58am

re: #120 AemJeff

Alouette, the settlements are re: #97 Last Mohican

I suggest you read a bit about the history of the formation State of Israel, and Ariel Sharon's personal history before you "how dare you" me. Likud has rotts as a terrorist organization just as Hamas does. Try reading up about the Irgun, for instance.

I suggest that you not take that patronizing tone in suggesting what you think I should read.

I don't care where you think the roots of Likud lie, and I'm not willing to engage you in an off-topic discussion of whether some Likud members used to do some bad things. Hamas does not "have its roots" in a terrorist organization, it is a terrorist organization, one expressly determined to destroy the state of Israel and kill every Jew in Palestine, and actively engaged in trying to do so. If you wish to argue that Likud is also a genocidal terrorist organization, one that is actively engaged in trying to exterminate every Arab in Palestine, then your comparison is a valid one, and I hope that you will offer some evidence to support your argument. If not, then stop obscenely making these vague implications of moral equivalence between Hamas and Likud. It is, frankly, disgusting.

258 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:06:03am

re: #249 zombie

Lebanese protest girl

vs.

Minoan fresco #1

Minoan fresco #2

You tell me.

You must have more of an eye than me, I'd say the Lebanese girl looks - Irish. But then, I know some red-haired Hungarians with that sort of look. Maybe some of those Minoans headed up the Black Sea and Danube, and others out past Gibraltar.

259 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:06:14am

re: #241 AemJeff

Furry, you're putting words in my mouth. The rockets are not defensible, and haven't said a word trying to do so. The Israelis have a right to defend themselves. I haven't tried to contradict that. What can be argued is the scale of Israeli responses - but I haven't really argued even that. What I have said is that a lefty defending the Palestinians exclusively and a righty doing the same regarding the Isarelis sound pretty much the same to me. Both wrong. Is that a simple moral equivalence? I don't think so - you obviously disagree.

What would be an appropriate response for Israel? For the citizens of Sderot to launch random home-built rockets at Gaza?

You keep claiming that both sides are equally to blame. If the Palestinians stopped fighting today, there would be peace tomorrow. If the Israelis stopped fighting today, there would be no Israel tomorrow.

260 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:07:14am

re: #259 Alouette

If the Palestinians stopped fighting today, there would be peace tomorrow. If the Israelis stopped fighting today, there would be no Israel tomorrow.

GREAT line , may I plagerize it?

261 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:07:35am

re: #258 itellu3times

You must have more of an eye than me, I'd say the Lebanese girl looks - Irish. But then, I know some red-haired Hungarians with that sort of look. Maybe some of those Minoans headed up the Black Sea and Danube, and others out past Gibraltar.

I'm pretty sure that's not her natural hair color.

262 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:07:37am

re: #260 sattv4u2

If the Palestinians stopped fighting today, there would be peace tomorrow. If the Israelis stopped fighting today, there would be no Israel tomorrow.

GREAT line , may I plagerize it?

Go right ahead, I didn't make it up.

263 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:07:38am

re: #259 Alouette
That is the bottom line.

264 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:07:45am

re: #241 AemJeff

... sound pretty much the same to me. Both wrong ...

You're betraying the obvious fact that you know very little of the historical record.

You have an inarguable right to feel this-or-that sounds like that-or-the-other, and to label whatever you like or dislike as right and wrong.

We have an inarguable right to label your call for us to study the historical record as self-serving, sanctimonious, bullshit.

/did you even bother to click the link to Nekama's Troll Hammer?

265 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:08:24am

re: #259 Alouette

What would be an appropriate response for Israel? For the citizens of Sderot to launch random home-built rockets at Gaza?

Appropriate?

I'd say that would be fair.

But to me, "appropriate" includes carpet bombing Gaza in response, if they have the capability.

"Appropriate" does not have to mean "proportional", this whole "proportional" thing is a huge exercise in bogus moral equivalence.

266 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:09:23am

re: #265 itellu3times

Appropriate?

I'd say that would be fair.

But to me, "appropriate" includes carpet bombing Gaza in response, if they have the capability.

"Appropriate" does not have to mean "proportional", this whole "proportional" thing is a huge exercise in bogus moral equivalence.

Thats Alouetts point!

267 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:11:32am

re: #261 amir

I'm pretty sure that's not her natural hair color.

So maybe the Minoans were into henna, what do I know?

268 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:13:19am

re: #266 sattv4u2

Thats Alouetts point!

Well sure but she was being polite about it!

269 blangwort  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #58 AemJeff

Well, that's an assertion. Likud, and the Israeli right use other means (settlements, e.g.) but the intent is the same. You won't find me defending Hamas, or their murderous predecessors, but the Israeli right is deeply culpable.

Israel took that territory when she was attacked in 1967. They do not owe it back. No other country in history has voluntarily returned territory seized during a defensive war.

You expect the Israelis to do this so that the "Palestinians" won't attack again. That's a tall order. Israel doesn't owe her Arab neighbors a damned thing. They can settle the land if they want to. It is their right.

In fact, that region of the world has been conquered more than 25 times (as discovered archaeologically) in recorded history; and there is evidence that it has been a pivotal region well back to the stone age. It is Lunacy for anyone to claim territory is theirs by birth-right. It belongs to whoever happens to maintain control over it.

That was the basis for the British and the Ottoman Empires for ruling there. Why shouldn't the same be true for the Israelis?

270 zombie  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:14:52am

re: #258 itellu3times

You must have more of an eye than me, I'd say the Lebanese girl looks - Irish. But then, I know some red-haired Hungarians with that sort of look.

re: #261 amir

I'm pretty sure that's not her natural hair color.

Her hair is brown -- it's just a trick of the light that it looks reddish in the picture. It's picking up some red tones from the street lights. Also, most brown hair has a reddish tinge when the light shines through it from a certain angle.

271 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:15:27am

re: #269 blangwort
Because they're JOOOOOS!//

272 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:16:04am

re: #270 zombie

Her hair is brown -- it's just a trick of the light that it looks reddish in the picture. It's picking up some red tones from the street lights. Also, most brown hair has a reddish tinge when the light shines through it from a certain angle.

And I'll bet said streetlamps are hideously inefficient to the point where Algore and his Global Warming friends would go apeshit!

273 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:16:09am

re: #268 itellu3times

Well sure but she was being polite about it!

hehehehe

274 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:17:33am

re: #253 buzzsawmonkey

I'd say it means you ignore adjectives. I said it wasn't a "simple" moral equivalence - by which I meant not a point for point matchup. The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves too, don't they? They have a right to the land on which they live, I think, as well. Civilians ought to be abe to feel as if their homes were safe from tanks and bulldozers. Both sides have a survival stake in the conflict. Both sides are guilty of atrocities. Both sides have killed civilians, I think the Palestinians are far more culpable in that sense, for targeting them directly. Israeli retaliations often seem disproporionate to the provocations. Sometimes crazy Israelis (Sharon, for instance) have done completely indefensible things.

Paradoxically I think the worst thing to have happened in the last several years was Sharon's stroke. Hadima, under his leadership, seemed a hell of a lot more likely to me to have found a path through this swamp than anyone since. His incapacitation was a huge tragedy - something I find hard to admit.

275 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:18:43am

re: #267 itellu3times

As much as I like "zombie" I think s/he's way off on her point #201. Lebanese, Palestinians, Christian and Moslems are heterogeneous- I believe. They are probably a mixture of Minoans, crusaders, Arabs whatever. I even read once that some Bedouins were brought as slaves by Arabs from Europe hundreds of years a ago and are closely related to Gypsies.

276 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:18:59am

re: #270 zombie

Those were MINOAN frescos?!?! I never saw anything Minoan in National Geographic which didn't have a bull and a girl with bare ...

/right about then was when Mom slapped a hand over my eyes and took the magazine away

277 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:19:05am

re: #274 AemJeff

Your facts are garbled, wrong.

278 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:19:29am

re: #274 AemJeff

typo: "Kadima," not "Hadima"

279 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:19:50am

re: #274 AemJeff
The only folks who've had houses bulldozed are proven terrorist supporters.

280 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:21:09am

re: #279 pingjockey

The only folks who've had houses bulldozed are proven terrorist supporters.

And bulldozing houses is a long way from killing civilians.

Too far, in my opinion, makes the Israelis look like idiots.

281 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:21:18am

re: #274 AemJeff

I'd say it means you ignore adjectives. I said it wasn't a "simple" moral equivalence - by which I meant not a point for point matchup. The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves too, don't they? They have a right to the land on which they live, I think, as well. Civilians ought to be abe to feel as if their homes were safe from tanks and bulldozers. Both sides have a survival stake in the conflict. Both sides are guilty of atrocities. Both sides have killed civilians, I think the Palestinians are far more culpable in that sense, for targeting them directly. Israeli retaliations often seem disproporionate to the provocations. Sometimes crazy Israelis (Sharon, for instance) have done completely indefensible things.

Paradoxically I think the worst thing to have happened in the last several years was Sharon's stroke. Hadima, under his leadership, seemed a hell of a lot more likely to me to have found a path through this swamp than anyone since. His incapacitation was a huge tragedy - something I find hard to admit.

You forgot to add: "'Palestinians' have an obligation to act like civilized human beings." They haven't quite figured that one out yet.

282 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:21:20am

re: #241 AemJeff

You need some more straw? Your strawmen are looking a bit holey.

283 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:23:05am

re: #274 AemJeff

Are your eyes naturally brown or what?

Just askin'.

284 Last Mohican  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:23:28am

re: #172 avanti

It's not up to me to decide. The Geneva convention, the UN and the US have all agreed that the Israeli's do not have a right to keep settlements on occupied lands.

"Geneva Conventions

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states:

The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."

Regarding the Geneva Convention, the West Bank is not an occupied country. It's not a country at all. There has never been any agreement regarding where the borders between Israel and the West Bank lie and there has never been any state of "Palestine" that someone might have occupied.

Regarding the UN, I do not personally accept any authority of the UN, an organization that is extremely biased against Israel, to arbitrate matters related to Middle Eastern politics. I suppose you may be referring to Security Council Resolution 242, which many like to think states that Israel should withdraw to its pre-1967 borders. The resolution does not say that, and its drafters have explicitly stated that they did not intend for it to say that. Furthermore, the resolution requires

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Israel recognizes the sovereignty of every other state in the area. But most Arab states do not recognize Israel, and there has never been any major "Palestinian" political group that has been willing to accept the existence of Israel.

Regarding the US, the statements that I have seen from recent US presidents (other than Obama) have specified that some Israeli settlements will have to be dismantled, and some will have to remain.

285 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:24:07am

re: #274 AemJeff

Both sides are guilty of atrocities

True enough, on the surface.

Have BOTH sides prosecuted those responsible in courts of law?

What does a numerical/chronological tally of all atrocities committed by both sides reveal? For starters, are the lists the same general length?

286 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:24:22am

re: #280 itellu3times
It does. But, what else can they do? They're trying not to kill people in wholesale lots while trying to stop murderous vermin.

287 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:24:31am

re: #274 AemJeff

I'd say it means you ignore adjectives. I said it wasn't a "simple" moral equivalence - by which I meant not a point for point matchup. The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves too, don't they? They have a right to the land on which they live, I think, as well. Civilians ought to be abe to feel as if their homes were safe from tanks and bulldozers. Both sides have a survival stake in the conflict. Both sides are guilty of atrocities. Both sides have killed civilians, I think the Palestinians are far more culpable in that sense, for targeting them directly. Israeli retaliations often seem disproporionate to the provocations. Sometimes crazy Israelis (Sharon, for instance) have done completely indefensible things.

Paradoxically I think the worst thing to have happened in the last several years was Sharon's stroke. Hadima, under his leadership, seemed a hell of a lot more likely to me to have found a path through this swamp than anyone since. His incapacitation was a huge tragedy - something I find hard to admit.

At the risk of me sounding TOO pro-Israeli

Oy!

288 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:25:11am

"Proportionality" is one of many devices in the rhetorical armamentarium of the Arabs and their Western Useful Idiots used in an attempt to limit Israel's ability to defend itself.

Bombings are "bad" because innocent people are killed (no matter how far Israel goes to avoid collateral damage--which is farther than any other nation in history). But targeted killing, which spares the innocent, is bad because it is "assassination" of "civilians" (aka military leadership in civilian clothing).

Checkpoints are "bad" because, while they prevent the murder of Israelis, they inconvenience Palestinians. Likewise, settlements, which can be, and have been, removed, are an "obstacle to peace," whereas the murder of Israelis is justifiable "resistance."

Thus Arabs create this pseudo-equivalence wherein nonlethal, reversible actions taken by Israel are considered to be as bad as murder, and must be treated as such by the Western powers that seek their support.

The argument-ender for me, in parallel to Alouette's statement ("If the Palestinians stopped fighting today...") is that Israel unquestionably has the military might to annihilate the Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza. But they have not, nor have they ever attempted to. The Palestinians (and Arabs in general), on the other hand, have shown time and again that if they had the ability, they would be ready and willing to ethnically cleanse Israel of its Jews, and insist on ethnically cleansed territories. They threatened to throw the Jews into the sea in '48; Nasser threatened again in '67, and today Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas threaten the same thing.

There is no moral equivalence here.

289 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:26:15am

re: #281 pink freud

I'd agree, except that "Palestinians" is far too broad - which is the whole point of this discussion from my point of view. "Hamas" have no intention if figuring that one out. Damning the entire population is inaccurate and false.

290 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:28:22am

re: #289 AemJeff
The population VOTED Hamas into power. Just like the fools that voted for the one. Elections have consequences.

291 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:28:41am

re: #290 pingjockey

Beat me to it.

292 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:29:56am

re: #289 AemJeff

I'd agree, except that "Palestinians" is far too broad - which is the whole point of this discussion from my point of view. "Hamas" have no intention if figuring that one out. Damning the entire population is inaccurate and false.

So when Hilter was bombing England nightly it should have been incumbent upon the allies to make sure that no Germans other than Nazi party members died while we were bombing Dresden?

293 Macker  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:31:02am

re: #282 FurryOldGuyJeans

You need some more straw? Your strawmen are looking a bit holey.

Actually, its strawmen are UNholy!

294 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:32:02am

re: #290 pingjockey

And people tend to voteon domestic concerns, for which obviously Hamas has strategically take responsibility. And the vote wasn't unamimous. And who knows how much coercion was involved? (I don't.) Justifying damning an entire population on the outcome of a election seems pretty obviously off to me.

295 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:32:17am

re: #289 AemJeff

I'd agree, except that "Palestinians" is far too broad - which is the whole point of this discussion from my point of view. "Hamas" have no intention if figuring that one out. Damning the entire population is inaccurate and false.

Part of that 'entire population' is a whole slew of MOTHERS who raise their children with the express purpose of becoming suicide bombers.

296 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:32:37am
297 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:32:48am

AemJeff appears to believe what he wants to believe.

/I hope my PC isn't using any code he's ever written

298 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:32:55am

re: #292 sattv4u2
Well d'uh. /

299 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:33:07am

re: #292 sattv4u2

No, we should not have firebombed Dresden, period. (Or dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, for that matter,)

300 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:34:32am

re: #294 AemJeff

And people tend to voteon domestic concerns, for which obviously Hamas has strategically take responsibility. And the vote wasn't unamimous. And who knows how much coercion was involved? (I don't.) Justifying damning an entire population on the outcome of a election seems pretty obviously off to me.

So how, specifically, do you propose that Israel defend herself against Hamas attacks, which, as I assume you know, refuses to recognize or negotiate any peace with Israel, if Israel is not allowed to make war on Gaza for fear of "disproportionate" civilian casualties?

301 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:34:33am

re: #289 AemJeff

I'd agree, except that "Palestinians" is far too broad - which is the whole point of this discussion from my point of view. "Hamas" have no intention if figuring that one out. Damning the entire population is inaccurate and false.

Where is the Palestinian pro-Israeli equivalent of "Peace Now" "Yesh Gvul" "Machsom Watch" and all the other leftist bleeding heart pro-Palestinian Israeli groups?

302 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:34:42am

re: #294 AemJeff

Geeez louise ,,,, In one post you admonish us not to denounce all the Palis for Hamas being in charge
In the next you're pointing out that the vote was "UNANIMOUS"

I am LITERALLY sitting here shaking my head

303 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:34:50am

re: #297 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I hate to tell you pre-boomer, but my code probably isn't in your PC, but it is in Predator drones, among other systems.

304 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:35:02am
305 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:35:23am

re: #299 AemJeff

No, we should not have firebombed Dresden, period. (Or dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, for that matter,)

So you wouldn't mind being under Nazi (or Imperial Japanese) rule right now, huh?

306 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:35:39am

re: #294 AemJeff
Nope. But a MAJORITY did. Remember, these 'brave' freedom fighters don't wear uniforms, shoot rockets from schools, store ammo in hospitals. War against such cretins is not a boxing match with rules and a referee.

307 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:35:57am

re: #302 sattv4u2

You might want to read that one again.

308 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:36:42am

re: #299 AemJeff

If it were your intent on coming across as a propagandizing, flaming asshole and troll, you succeeded beyond your wildest imagination with that comment.

309 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:37:27am

re: #299 AemJeff

No, we should not have firebombed Dresden, period. (Or dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, for that matter,)

What do you think we should have done, O Great Armchair Warrior?

310 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:37:28am

re: #299 AemJeff
You are a goddamned idiot. If we had to invade Japan, 10 million plus Japanese civilians would've been killed.

311 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:37:30am

re: #299 AemJeff

No, we should not have firebombed Dresden, period. (Or dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, for that matter,)

I'm not sitting out any longer. You, sir, are a complete fucking idiot and fact denier. Fuck off.

312 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:37:32am

re: #307 AemJeff

You might want to read that one again.

I take it back. I am seeing so much red from your OTHER egregious comments I admit I missed that one!

313 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:38:02am

re: #308 FurryOldGuyJeans

If it were your intent on coming across as a propagandizing, flaming asshole and troll, you succeeded beyond your wildest imagination with that comment.

Awww c'mon, FLGJ, war is baaaaaaaaaad.

(And so is winning, obviously.)

314 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:38:30am

Stinky, wield your silver hammer and let's throw the troll on the barbie!

315 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:39:06am
316 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:39:09am

re: #303 AemJeff

I hate to tell you pre-boomer, but my code probably isn't in your PC, but it is in Predator drones, among other systems.

And just why do you "hate to tell" me precisely where it's at.

/jic, as a friendly warning, you're also telling people where you work

317 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:40:10am

re: #299 AemJeff

No, we should not have firebombed Dresden, period. (Or dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, for that matter,)

Jeff, you ignorant slut.

318 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:40:26am

Current karma ratio: -5.4.
Not bad for the first day.

319 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:40:26am

re: #308 FurryOldGuyJeans

Furry, you're rude and intolerant. You also re: #316 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No, only in what industry. The point was that the assumption that I'm anti-war, or a pacifist is false.

320 Lincolntf  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:40:36am

re: #295 pink freud

That's probably why Hamas can afford to provide "cradle-to-grave" welfare. Their ideal Pali only lives long enough to learn how to light a fuse.

321 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:40:45am

re: #316 pre-Boomer Marine brat
I hope he realizes Predator drones kill people.

322 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:41:36am

re: #316 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Meant to respond to this one, above.

323 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:42:01am

re: #299 AemJeff

I know what you're thinking. "Did I just get slammed by five Lizards or six?"
Well, to tell you the truth, in the midst of these rapid-fire attacks, I lost count myself.
But, seeing as how this is LGF, the most well-run site with the most experienced and erudite commenters in the world, and could blow your goofy moronic liberal/Marxist fantasies clean out of the water, you got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel like pursuing this line of thought?"
Well, do you, punk?

324 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:42:41am

re: #321 pingjockey

That's not part of the program for the Dept. of Historical Second-Guessing.

325 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:42:42am

re: #299 AemJeff

No, we should not have firebombed Dresden, period. (Or dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, for that matter,)

And you piously tell us to study our history! You are self-righteous. Your knowledge of the details of history is about as deep as a crust of dried mouse piss.

FOAD
GAZE

326 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:43:02am

re: #323 solomonpanting
Mwahahahaha!

327 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:43:07am

re: #303 AemJeff

Ah, so you make money working for the Military/Industrial complex. Nice lack of morals there, acting a pacifist asshole.

328 quickjustice  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:43:17am

re: #97 Last Mohican

Red scarf isn't your type. But Fatima . . .

329 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:43:36am

re: #319 AemJeff

Furry, you're rude and intolerant. You also re: #316 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No, only in what industry. The point was that the assumption that I'm anti-war, or a pacifist is false.

Sorry,,, but if it QAUKES, I think DUCK!

330 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:43:44am

re: #319 AemJeff

Yes, I'm rude to flaming assholes. Your point, pinhead?

331 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:44:06am

re: #324 jaunte
Oh, right. I forgot.

332 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:44:42am

re: #323 solomonpanting

thank you. I have tears rolling down my cheeks!

333 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:45:23am

re: #330 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes, I'm rude to flaming assholes. Your point, pinhead?

now now.. have some respect ,where are your manners, thats Mister pinhead!

334 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:45:43am

Karma: -134
Registered since: Jan 31, 2009 at 7:56 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 26
No. of links posted: 0

This asshole had to have set some kind of record.

335 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:46:11am

re: #329 sattv4u2

Sorry,,, but if it QAUKES, QUACKS I think DUCK!


pimf

336 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:46:22am

re: #329 sattv4u2

Sorry,,, but if it QAUKES, I think DUCK!

And if it quakes, I think it needs a Hamas-matched child bride.

337 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:46:52am

re: #336 transient

And if it quakes, I think it needs a Hamas-matched child bride.

please hold me , mommy!

338 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:47:13am

re: #319 AemJeff

No, only in what industry.

You might not have seen something posted up-thread. Two and two can be put together by someone who knows where the industry's hen-houses are.

/mind you, I'm just sayin'

339 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:47:20am

re: #335 sattv4u2

pimf

or Fruedian!?!?

340 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:47:23am

re: #334 VegasRick
IIRC, we had what's her face get like -1000 on one comment!

341 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:47:35am

re: #290 pingjockey

The population VOTED Hamas into power. Just like the fools that voted for the one. Elections have consequences.

Wanna take bets we have another Teh (sic) One worshiper here?

342 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:48:03am

re: #323 solomonpanting

I'm not getting slammed. People here have a point of view I don't fully agree with on this topic. So what? Of course I think I'm right, I don't need you to agree with me. I'd prefer more argument and less ad hominem, but what are you going to do?

343 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:48:31am

re: #322 AemJeff

Meant to respond to this one, above.

Thanks. Saw that.
See my 338.

344 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:48:57am

re: #341 FurryOldGuyJeans
That ain't no bet!

345 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:49:36am

re: #340 pingjockey

IIRC, we had what's her face get like -1000 on one comment!

No kidding! That must have been some post!

346 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #299 AemJeff

No, we should not have firebombed Dresden, period. (Or dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, for that matter,)

Nagasaki and Hiroshima were major military targets, they housed thousands of troops, factories to fuel the war machine and command and communication hubs.
The Nazi's rolled over anything in their path with mo moral compassion whatsoever.
And moonbats like you just cant help but feel sorry for evil.
Your beyond disgusting.

347 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:49:47am

re: #343 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks.

348 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:50:51am

re: #334 VegasRick

Nope, not even close. annefrance is the weiner:

annefrance

This user is blocked.

Karma: -619
Registered since: Feb 3, 2008 at 9:20 am

No. of comments posted: 18
No. of links posted: 0

349 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:51:39am

re: #348 FurryOldGuyJeans

Nope, not even close. annefrance is the weiner:

Damn. I missed that one.

350 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:52:06am

re: #345 VegasRick
I can't think of its name or what the topic was but it was a crater of monumental proportions.
Aha FOGJ got it!

351 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:52:08am

BBL

352 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:52:38am

re: #348 FurryOldGuyJeans

Do you know how to find the most down dinged comment ever?

353 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:53:06am

re: #342 AemJeff

What would your preferred method have been to bring WW2 to an end
What do you envision as an 'end game" to setlle the ongoing Israeli/ Pali war?

354 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:53:56am

re: #349 VegasRick

Damn. I missed that one.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

(but this one of hers only has -482 ...still, a good representation)

355 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:54:12am

re: #347 AemJeff

Thanks.

FYI, think someone who's both very technically savvy and who is, or has been, a headhunter. Those guys make a living knowing precisely what's done, precisely where. (It's an arcane bit of insight, from personal experience some time ago.)

356 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:54:13am

re: #348 FurryOldGuyJeans

Nope, not even close. annefrance is the weiner:

Is there a way to specifically search by nic?

357 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:54:29am

re: #342 AemJeff

re: #353 sattv4u2

What would your preferred method have been to bring WW2 to an end ON BOTH FRONTS
What do you envision as an 'end game" to setlle the ongoing Israeli/ Pali war?


sorry, forgot something,, added above in CAPS

358 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:54:58am

re: #347 AemJeff
Just for the record, I had 4 great uncles who would've had to be in on the invasion of Japan if it would've had to happen. So keep your damn nonsense about dropping the bomb to yourself.

359 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:55:12am

re: #350 pingjockey

I can't think of its name or what the topic was but it was a crater of monumental proportions.
Aha FOGJ got it!

But our current troll is doing good getting most of the bottom 10 comments all to himself. That still is an achievement he should be proud of.

360 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:55:18am

re: #348 FurryOldGuyJeans

Nope, not even close. annefrance is the weiner:

*doffs hat*
*genuflects*

/heh ... honoring genius in whatever dimension

361 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:55:58am

re: #286 pingjockey

It does. But, what else can they do? They're trying not to kill people in wholesale lots while trying to stop murderous vermin.

That in itself may be a mistake, but in any case they are too far in the other direction.

362 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:57:04am

re: #352 amir

Do you know how to find the most down dinged comment ever?

No.

-------------------------------------------------- ------------

re: #356 transient

user:name, substituting the nic you want in the search text box.

363 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:57:23am

re: #359 FurryOldGuyJeans
Heh.

364 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:58:57am

re: #356 transient

Is there a way to specifically search by nic?

In the Advanced Search,
select search in Comments,
then enter (WITH quote marks)
"user:InsertNicHere"

It might only return recent comments.

365 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:58:58am

re: #361 itellu3times
The Israelis are doing the best they can and that's all we can hope for. How scary is it to send your kid to the corner market for milk and not know if they'll get back?

366 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:59:37am

re: #303 AemJeff

I hate to tell you pre-boomer, but my code probably isn't in your PC, but it is in Predator drones, among other systems.

"More than one third of all deployed Predator spy planes have crashed."
Source: Wikipedia

367 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:59:48am

re: #353 sattv4u2

Directly targeting civilians is always wrong. Period. It doesn't matter if it's done via suicide bomber, or the Enola Gay. The fact that there were also military targets among the hundreds of thousands of civilians is not a sufficient reason to ignore the enormity of that act. Asserting the counterfactual (million of lives saved...) doesn't constitute proof, and asserting a utilitarian argument isn't convincing.

368 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:00:05pm

re: #358 pingjockey

I had 4 great uncles

You're lucky! All my uncles were sorta okay, but non of them were very good, let alone GREAT!


////

369 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:02:01pm

re: #367 AemJeff

Directly targeting civilians is always wrong. Period. It doesn't matter if it's done via suicide bomber, or the Enola Gay. The fact that there were also military targets among the hundreds of thousands of civilians is not a sufficient reason to ignore the enormity of that act. Asserting the counterfactual (million of lives saved...) doesn't constitute proof, and asserting a utilitarian argument isn't convincing.

Okay,, so thats what you would NOT have done, but the question was what WOULD you have done.
Can you not see the distinction?
Again, you dodged THE question.

370 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:02:20pm

"Looking for Mr Goodbomb"

371 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:04:20pm

re: #367 AemJeff

Kinda hard to miss civilians when the asshole fighters hide amongst any, or use civilian buildings for military business.

But so far you have shown you have not a whit of information that isn't processed through the media, so I am not surprised you spout pacifist Leftoid bullshit.

Yes, I'm rude. I'm a cranky old coot, and proud of it. I'm even worse in person with flaming assholes like you.

372 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:04:29pm

re: #368 sattv4u2
Hahaha! One granma had 3 bros, the other 1, all were in the Pacific.

373 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:06:46pm

re: #367 AemJeff
Doesn't constitute proof...Maybe you should see the movies of the Japanese civilians jumping off the cliffs in Guam because the government had told them the GIs would rape and murder them. Just what the fuck do you think would've happened on the home islands?

374 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:06:48pm

re: #367 AemJeff

Asserting the counterfactual (million of lives saved...) doesn't constitute proof, and asserting a utilitarian argument isn't convincing.

Were you in one of my philosophy minor classes back in the late Sixties?

/rhetorical ... don't bother

375 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:06:54pm

re: #369 sattv4u2

You seem to have the idea that people are obliged to answer you in your own terms. You really think that floating a few counterfactuals about WWII has any bearing on the moral proposition I stated? Either it's wrong or it's not.

376 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:07:56pm

re: #366 Stuart Leviton

"More than one third of all deployed Predator spy planes have crashed."
Source: Wikipedia

heh

377 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:08:04pm

re: #367 AemJeff

Civilians weren't "directly targeted" at Hiroshima......btw the firebombing of Tokyo produced more casualties than either atomic explosion.

378 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:08:39pm

re: #373 pingjockey

Doesn't constitute proof...Maybe you should see the movies of the Japanese civilians jumping off the cliffs in Guam because the government had told them the GIs would rape and murder them. Just what the fuck do you think would've happened on the home islands?

It was on Saipan.

379 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:09:28pm

re: #375 AemJeff
War is hell. You ever hear that? You get going and get it done quick as possible.

380 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:09:41pm

re: #367 AemJeff

Directly targeting civilians is always wrong. Period. It doesn't matter if it's done via suicide bomber, or the Enola Gay. The fact that there were also military targets among the hundreds of thousands of civilians is not a sufficient reason to ignore the enormity of that act. Asserting the counterfactual (million of lives saved...) doesn't constitute proof, and asserting a utilitarian argument isn't convincing.


That's an easy position to take from the comfort of your living room, with no responsibilites but for yourself and, perhaps, a family.

They didn't have JDAMs and Predators in 1945. They were trying to end a war that had already cost millions of lives (documented).
And "proportionality" does not end a war. It prolongs it.

381 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:10:04pm

re: #378 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It was on Saipan.


Okinawa,too. I've been to the cliffs....seen the bones.

382 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:10:27pm

re: #378 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Don't confuse me! Knew it was one or the other!

383 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:10:41pm

re: #371 FurryOldGuyJeans

I agree about them hiding among civilians. It's still fair to argue about Israeli counter-tactics, even if the Palestinian leadership is scum. The problem I have is conflating the civilians, who ought to be viewed as innocents, with the leaders.

384 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:10:42pm

re: #378 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It was on Saipan.

What civilians there might have been on Guam never made it to the cliffs

/the Chamorros

385 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:10:57pm

Question for AemJeff

What's your position on civilians killed in the civil war?

386 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:11:35pm

re: #375 AemJeff


Counterfactuals?

387 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:11:38pm

re: #385 amir

Why do you imagine it would change?

388 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:11:45pm

re: #375 AemJeff

Ah, but we have to argue on your terms? I don't have my English to Flaming Asshole dictionary handy.

389 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:12:07pm

re: #385 amir

Question for AemJeff

What's your position on civilians killed in the civil war?

There were relatively few civilians killed in the Civil War because they tended to stay off the battlefields.

390 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:12:31pm

re: #386 BignJames

Someone likes the new history, the old history must have been too upsetting.

391 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:12:46pm

re: #375 AemJeff

You seem to have the idea that people are obliged to answer you in your own terms. You really think that floating a few counterfactuals about WWII has any bearing on the moral proposition I stated? Either it's wrong or it's not.

No. But it does show what a disingenuous debater you are. Deflect, dodge or ignore that which you are incapable or not informed enough to answer.

My question did not ask you to state a FACT that could be proven as true/ false. My question asked you for an OPINION, as someone who proclaims a knowledge of history.

392 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:12:55pm

re: #383 AemJeff

I agree about them hiding among civilians. It's still fair to argue about Israeli counter-tactics, even if the Palestinian leadership is scum. The problem I have is conflating the civilians, who ought to be viewed as innocents, with the leaders.


Would I be correct in assuming that you would support the targeted killing of the Hamas leadership?

393 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:13:41pm

re: #381 BignJames

Okinawa,too. I've been to the cliffs....seen the bones.

Yes. Described in my Dad's copy of the history of the Sixth Marine Div.

Saipan was more "memorable" -- 20-plus thousand.

394 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:13:58pm

re: #386 BignJames

Counterfactuals. The bombs were dropped. The alternate history in which millions more died never occurred.

395 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:14:08pm

re: #386 BignJames

Counterfactuals?

big word with little meaning

a conditional statement the first clause of which expresses something contrary to fact, as “If I had known.”

396 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:15:21pm

re: #386 BignJames

Counterfactuals?

heh

397 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:15:33pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Counterfactuals. The bombs were dropped. The alternate history in which millions more died never occurred.

Your entire posting history here is in the realm of counterfactuals.

398 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:15:35pm

re: #383 AemJeff

The first casualty of war is the truth, something you have not even a passing acquaintance with.

399 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:15:40pm

re: #383 AemJeff
No one here is conflating most of the people of Gaza with the terrorists. The point you are willingly missing is there are vermin shooting rockets right in their midst. Are you saying the Israelis shouldn't shoot back until they have a perfectly clear field of fire? If you are, then the vermin win.

400 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:16:37pm

re: #385 amir

Question for AemJeff

What's your position on civilians killed in the civil war?

re: #387 AemJeff

Why do you imagine it would change?

Answering a question with a question

Ahh ,, a dodge by any other name ,,,,,,,,,

401 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:17:10pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Counterfactuals. The bombs were dropped. The alternate history in which millions more died never occurred.


Fallacious argument. If people were unable or unwilling to predict the better of two or more alternatives, there would be no reason to take action at all, ever--including signing peace treaties.

402 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:17:21pm

re: #383 AemJeff

I agree about them hiding among civilians. It's still fair to argue about Israeli counter-tactics, even if the Palestinian leadership is scum. The problem I have is conflating the civilians, who ought to be viewed as innocents, with the leaders.

Israel agrees with you. That's why she uses targeted assassination instead.
Israel tries to do what she can to limit civilian casualties.

403 debutaunt  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:17:56pm

re: #323 solomonpanting

hahahahahahahhahahahahahaaa

404 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:18:07pm

re: #387 AemJeff

Are your eyes naturally brown, or what?

405 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:18:45pm

re: #367 AemJeff

Directly targeting civilians is always wrong. Period. It doesn't matter if it's done via suicide bomber, or the Enola Gay. The fact that there were also military targets among the hundreds of thousands of civilians is not a sufficient reason to ignore the enormity of that act. Asserting the counterfactual (million of lives saved...) doesn't constitute proof, and asserting a utilitarian argument isn't convincing.

It's called war, you could look it up.

406 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:18:52pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Counterfactuals. The bombs were dropped. The alternate history in which millions more died never occurred.

Ok.....have you ever read anything about Japan's preparations for being invaded?

407 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:19:01pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Counterfactuals. The bombs were dropped. The alternate history in which millions more died never occurred.

Can you get more Intellectually Pompous?
That's what this is.
You're not arguing facts, you're arguing from Pomposity.

408 traderjoe9  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:20:07pm

re: #367 AemJeff

Directly targeting civilians is always wrong. Period. It doesn't matter if it's done via suicide bomber, or the Enola Gay. The fact that there were also military targets among the hundreds of thousands of civilians is not a sufficient reason to ignore the enormity of that act. Asserting the counterfactual (million of lives saved...) doesn't constitute proof, and asserting a utilitarian argument isn't convincing.

This is getting ridiculous. From day one, the IDF teaches every single one of their soldiers the importance of avoiding civilian casualties at all cost. Every single policy, every single action, every single technological advancement, is done with the purpose of avoiding civilian casualties as much has humanely possible. The IDF works toward this goal more than any other country in the world - yet you still have the nerve to criticize the military for one of the most remarkable operations in history. The ratio of civilians to terrorists killed is incredible - and the reported civilians killed is probably inflated as it is.

Is the death of civilians a tragedy? Sure it is. But what the fuck do you want Israel to do? When cafes are getting blown up, when rockets are paralyzing approximately 1/6th of the country, and when every day there is a fear of simply getting on a bus or going to school, what the fuck do you want Israel to do?

The "Palestinians" don't want to help themselves; thats their problem. Jews have died enough throughout their history, they shouldn't continue to die for the sake of saving the very people who want to see them destroyed. Its laughable. Yet Israel continues to do this, just so scum like you can shut up.

409 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:20:17pm

re: #394 AemJeff

re: #406 BignJames

Ok.....have you ever read anything about Japan's preparations for being invaded?

OR the US's efforts in limiting 'civilian loss" by dropping leaflets of warning in the weeks prior to dropping the bombs?

410 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:21:10pm

re: #399 pingjockey

I don't miss that point. I've made it myself in this thread. I'm saying that there is a legitimate argument to made regarding how the Israelis retaliate. I'm saying that even after you concede that Palestinian tactics are disgusting, there are still open questions about how to respond. I'm saying the Israelis have been responsible for deeply questionable acts, some of which I listed here. I'm mostly saying that taking a single side in this conflict is wrong, regardless of which side you take.

411 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:21:24pm

Assuming that a quicker method of ending the war with Japan was known to the U.S. military command, and the choice they made in how to end it by dropping atomic bombs was wrong, is a counterfactual assumption.

412 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:21:34pm

re: #303 AemJeff

I hate to tell you pre-boomer, but my code probably isn't in your PC, but it is in Predator drones, among other systems.

If you're good at that, maybe you should stick to it.

Well, OK, that's unfair. You might want to consider the moral implications of your work.

Or maybe not, hmm?

413 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:21:55pm

re: #407 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Can you get more Intellectually Pompous?
That's what this is.
You're not arguing facts, you're arguing from Pomposity.

May I add pseudo-intellectual to his already conferred title of flaming asshole troll, please? ;)

414 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:22:31pm

re: #410 AemJeff

I don't miss that point. I've made it myself in this thread. I'm saying that there is a legitimate argument to made regarding how the Israelis retaliate. I'm saying that even after you concede that Palestinian tactics are disgusting, there are still open questions about how to respond. I'm saying the Israelis have been responsible for deeply questionable acts, some of which I listed here. I'm mostly saying that taking a single side in this conflict is wrong, regardless of which side you take.


Obama.....that you?

415 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:22:59pm

And I'm saying that I now question why this person registered.

GAZE

416 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:23:25pm

re: #399 pingjockey

No one here is conflating most of the people of Gaza with the terrorists.

I am.

If they don't like what the terrorists are doing, they should consider their own enlightened self-interests and even at risk to themselves, do something about it.

417 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:23:47pm

re: #410 AemJeff

I don't miss that point. I've made it myself in this thread. I'm saying that there is a legitimate argument to made regarding how the Israelis retaliate. I'm saying that even after you concede that Palestinian tactics are disgusting, there are still open questions about how to respond. I'm saying the Israelis have been responsible for deeply questionable acts, some of which I listed here. I'm mostly saying that taking a single side in this conflict is wrong, regardless of which side you take.

Making a judgment and taking a side is called "being a grownup".

418 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:23:54pm

re: #411 jaunte

Assuming that a quicker method of ending the war with Japan was known to the U.S. military command, and the choice they made in how to end it by dropping atomic bombs was wrong, is a counterfactual assumption.

Exactly right.

419 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:24:46pm

re: #410 AemJeff

Ah, now you have made it crystal clear. You don't want the Pali/Israeli war to end since then you might be out of a defense job writing software for them Predators! (And other systems)

420 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:25:03pm

re: #410 AemJeff

You are an idiot. A Goddamned idiot and a moron. Israel is fighting for its SURVIVAL. I'm done with you and your moral equvilence bullshit, the Hamas, Hezbollocks, Iran, all want the Jews exterminated. Go to hell and take your lamebrained nonsense with you.

421 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:25:23pm

re: #410 AemJeff

I'm saying that even after you concede that Palestinian tactics are disgusting, there are still open questions about how to respond. I'm saying the Israelis have been responsible for deeply questionable acts, some of which I listed here. I'm mostly saying that taking a single side in this conflict is wrong, regardless of which side you take.

So if I was to convince that all of Israel's acts were reasonable, but hundreds or thousands of Arab civilians were still killed, then in that case it would be ok?

422 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:25:28pm
423 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:25:56pm

re: #415 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And I'm saying that I now question why this person registered.

GAZE

Perhaps he is here to be enlightened.

Which can be a painful process, for the enlightenee, as well as the enlighteners.

Then again, perhaps not.

424 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:26:20pm

re: #417 pink freud

Making a judgment and taking a side is called "being a grownup".

Does that mean when I go to a New England Patriots game this year as a lifelong fan I can't root for BOTH teams !?!?

OR ,, OR ,, EVERY kid should get a trophy regardless ,, and lets NOT keep score !

425 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:26:23pm

re: #413 FurryOldGuyJeans

May I add pseudo-intellectual to his already conferred title of flaming asshole troll, please? ;)

He's got a subroutine stuck in a loop.
What's more, he likes it.

/the loop is what he wants to believe

426 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:26:32pm

re: #419 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah, now you have made it crystal clear. You don't want the Pali/Israeli war to end since then you might be out of a defense job writing software for them Predators! (And other systems)

ouch

427 traderjoe9  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:27:03pm

re: #410 AemJeff

I don't miss that point. I've made it myself in this thread. I'm saying that there is a legitimate argument to made regarding how the Israelis retaliate. I'm saying that even after you concede that Palestinian tactics are disgusting, there are still open questions about how to respond. I'm saying the Israelis have been responsible for deeply questionable acts, some of which I listed here. I'm mostly saying that taking a single side in this conflict is wrong, regardless of which side you take.

No, there is no "other side" to this conflict, as much as you'd like to believe that. This 'conflict' is so insignificant, when millions of people are dying in Darfur or elsewhere in African civil wars, or the massacres in Chechnya, or the mass wars throughout the Indochina, there isn't much of a 'conflict' to speak of. The only conflict that exists is between Israel and the international community, the international community that continues to lend the so-called "Palestinians' any shred of legitimacy and the spineless Israeli leaders who continue to heed these "concerns", which are nothing more than blatant anti-Semitism.

Who cares about the rest of the world, when we can demonize the Jews for wanting to fucking live.

428 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:27:37pm

re: #424 sattv4u2

Does that mean when I go to a New England Patriots game this year as a lifelong fan I can't root for BOTH teams !?!?

OR ,, OR ,, EVERY kid should get a trophy regardless ,, and lets NOT keep score !

Teachers can't use red ink ...it's hurtful! No F's, please!

429 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:28:03pm

re: #410 AemJeff

"I'm mostly saying that taking a single side in this conflict is wrong, regardless of which side you take."

Thats just what evil loves, to be equal with good.

430 Canoe Train  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:28:05pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

Here's the video.

431 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:29:08pm

re: #426 itellu3times

ouch

How else can you explain the tack this pseudo-intellectual flaming asshole is taking?

432 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:29:14pm

re: #428 pink freud

Teachers can't use red ink ...it's hurtful! No F's, please!

The RODNEY KING method of diplomacy!

433 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:29:15pm

re: #420 pingjockey

You are an idiot. A Goddamned idiot and a moron. Israel is fighting for its SURVIVAL. I'm done with you and your moral equvilence bullshit, the Hamas, Hezbollocks, Iran, all want the Jews exterminated. Go to hell and take your lamebrained nonsense with you.

(not as OT as might seem)

There's something very satisfying about laying patterns of old-fashioned depth charges.

434 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:29:25pm

re: #421 amir

So if I was to convince that all of Israel's acts were reasonable, but hundreds or thousands of Arab civilians were still killed, then in that case it would be ok?

Yah. As soon as you start making academic rules about how things are supposed to go, that's just the situation that occurs.

There is some tiny validity in that, don't let's go off on a tangent about the importance of intent in judging between murder and accident, but the whole point is that in war, we are waaaay past these sorts of things, and that's why it is labeled "war".

435 Canoe Train  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:29:41pm

re: #425 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sometimes, it pays dividends to "re-boot" these individuals. Other times, one has to ignore them.

436 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:30:26pm

re: #423 itellu3times

Perhaps he is here to be enlightened.

Which can be a painful process, for the enlightenee, as well as the enlighteners.

Then again, perhaps not.

In truth, yes, ... perhaps

437 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:30:28pm

re: #428 pink freud

BTW ,, haven't "talked" to you in awhile. How's "she' doing?

438 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:30:37pm

re: #417 pink freud

Making a judgment and taking a side is called "being a grownup".

Notre: #420 pingjockey

You are an idiot. A Goddamned idiot and a moron. Israel is fighting for its SURVIVAL. I'm done with you and your moral equvilence bullshit, the Hamas, Hezbollocks, Iran, all want the Jews exterminated. Go to hell and take your lamebrained nonsense with you.

Ping, such language. If you want to characterize what I've said, please do it accurately. Some anonymous civilian in Gaza is not the equivalent of "Hamas, Hezbollocks, Iran." The fact that you don't seem to be able to get your arms around what it is I'm saying isn't my responsibility. The fact that you can't disagree with somebody without all that invective says a lot about the value of your point of view.

439 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:31:59pm

re: #431 FurryOldGuyJeans

How else can you explain the tack this pseudo-intellectual flaming asshole is taking?

Some people are pseudo-intellectual assholes just for the fun of it. Others can't help themselves. Some mean well by it, and have no idea of the damage they do to the universe by being so complexly clueless. You want reasons for people being unreasonable, you can maybe find them, but it's going to be twisted all the same.

440 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:32:38pm

re: #433 pre-Boomer Marine brat
I've had enough idiocy. Been over in that area, the PG 5 times between 79 and 97. The islamofascists are savages pure and simple. Anyone defending them is defending terrorism.
Now me and the pup are going to take a nap.

441 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:32:46pm
442 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:33:03pm

re: #437 sattv4u2

I've been meaning to slip this in unobtrusively somewhere:

"The gosling has returned to the nest, repeat, the gosling has returned to the nest." ;-)

Arrived three days ago. Thank you for asking!

443 transient  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:33:15pm

It's been fun, but gotta go to work.

444 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:33:56pm

re: #442 pink freud

I've been meaning to slip this in unobtrusively somewhere:

"The gosling has returned to the nest, repeat, the gosling has returned to the nest." ;-)

Arrived three days ago. Thank you for asking!

GREAT news! Give her our best!

445 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:33:59pm

re: #438 AemJeff

Ah, you take offense at the way some people talk, but you won't answer questions put to you. You are the King of Dodge.

At least the current king, wear your crown proudly.

You are such a sanctimonious, pseudo-intellectual flaming asshole. Gonna go pout now that mean ol' Furry talked so to ya?

446 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:35:16pm

re: #438 AemJeff
One last time. The folks in Gaza picked their leaders. I feel for the innoncents caught up in it. I do. That said, a 500 lb bomb is no repecter of innocents and the folks shooting the rockets and sending homicide bombers into Israel take that into account. As far as language goes, that was nothing.

447 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:35:58pm

re: #445 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah, you take offense at the way some people talk, but you won't answer questions put to you. You are the King of Dodge.

At least the current king, wear your crown proudly.

You are such a sanctimonious, pseudo-intellectual flaming asshole. Gonna go pout now that mean ol' Furry talked so to ya?

Furry ,, such language (I haven't heard that phrase since 1964 when I was in the 6th grade scolded by Sister Agnes)

448 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:36:07pm

re: #439 itellu3times

Some people are pseudo-intellectual assholes just for the fun of it. Others can't help themselves. Some mean well by it, and have no idea of the damage they do to the universe by being so complexly clueless. You want reasons for people being unreasonable, you can maybe find them, but it's going to be twisted all the same.

I catch a whiff of expiation of guilt going on here, trying to self-absolve himself for working in a war making capacity.

Strange he doesn't go to HuffPo or Kos for that, they'd laud him as a conquering hero if he did.

449 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:36:11pm

re: #438 AemJeff

The fact that you can't disagree with somebody without all that invective says a lot about the value of your point of view.

On the surface of it -- out of the present context -- you have a point.

However, the way you characterize it as "value", as opposed to "factuality", simply screams a mindset of arrogance.

450 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:36:32pm

re: #423 itellu3times

Perhaps he is here to be enlightened.

Which can be a painful process, for the enlightenee, as well as the enlighteners.

Then again, perhaps not.

Well, we can 'splain it to him, but we can't understand it for him.
So I'm voting "perhaps not".

451 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:36:52pm

re: #444 sattv4u2

GREAT news! Give her our best!

Will do, sattv! Thank you.

Oh hey ...where's the swarm t'day? Have they moved on to green pastures?

452 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:37:03pm

re: #410 AemJeff

I don't miss that point. I've made it myself in this thread. I'm saying that there is a legitimate argument to made regarding how the Israelis retaliate. I'm saying that even after you concede that Palestinian tactics are disgusting, there are still open questions about how to respond. I'm saying the Israelis have been responsible for deeply questionable acts, some of which I listed here. I'm mostly saying that taking a single side in this conflict is wrong, regardless of which side you take.

Yeah, like littering and graffiti.

453 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:37:42pm

re: #438 AemJeff

Some anonymous civilian in Gaza is not the equivalent of "Hamas, Hezbollocks, Iran."

And given some anonymous civilian, how would you know that?

As has been pointed out innumerable times on this thread already, Israel goes to (what I consider to be ridiculous and counterproductive) great lengths to minimize civilian casualities. And this against idiot Palestinians who believe targeting civilians is their *best* strategy, and which they exercise in spite of the odds against it succeeding.

Are you totally unable to imagine yourself in the Israeli role?

454 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:37:59pm

re: #449 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Arrogance? I'll plead somewhat guilty. I have to say I don't think I'm alone in that within this thread.

455 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:38:01pm

re: #440 pingjockey

I've had enough idiocy. Been over in that area, the PG 5 times between 79 and 97. The islamofascists are savages pure and simple. Anyone defending them is defending terrorism.
Now me and the pup are going to take a nap.

Happy snores!

/and can you leave me your remaining supply of ashcans?

456 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:38:15pm

re: #438 AemJeff

Some anonymous civilian in Gaza is not the equivalent of "Hamas

Q: Hamas is firing rockets into Israel from pockets of civilians. What would you do in Israel's position?

I'm going to lunch now, so take your time.

457 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:38:44pm

re: #448 FurryOldGuyJeans

I catch a whiff of expiation of guilt going on here, trying to self-absolve himself for working in a war making capacity.

Strange he doesn't go to HuffPo or Kos for that, they'd laud him as a conquering hero if he did.

Oooh. Insightful FOGJ. I catch that too.

458 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:38:53pm

Nap time!

459 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:38:55pm

re: #450 reine.de.tout

Well, we can 'splain it to him, but we can't understand it for him.

Ain't that the truth!

460 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:39:45pm

re: #453 itellu3times

Are you totally unable to imagine yourself in the Israeli role?

That is not the FMSM position, so he can't.

461 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:39:56pm

re: #454 AemJeff

Arrogance? I'll plead somewhat guilty. I have to say I don't think I'm alone in that within this thread.

So you have company in perdition, then what?

462 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:40:01pm

re: #455 pre-Boomer Marine brat
The fantail is chock full as are the hedgehogs and ASROCs

463 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:40:21pm

re: #451 pink freud

Will do, sattv! Thank you.

Oh hey ...where's the swarm t'day? Have they moved on to green pastures?

I left at 9 a.m. for work (here for 12 hours today) When I left only 2 of the 4 were awake and playing video games and had already raided the fridge. Last I herad about an hour ago they were headed for a Pizza Buffet place near home

464 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:41:10pm

re: #460 FurryOldGuyJeans

Are you totally unable to imagine yourself in the Israeli role?

That is not the FMSM position, so he can't.

Just to clarify, the Israeli role of being a teenager in a Tel Aviv pizza parlor, or a child in the Sderot area, etc etc etc.

465 traderjoe9  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:41:16pm

re: #438 AemJeff

Ping, such language. If you want to characterize what I've said, please do it accurately. Some anonymous civilian in Gaza is not the equivalent of "Hamas, Hezbollocks, Iran." The fact that you don't seem to be able to get your arms around what it is I'm saying isn't my responsibility. The fact that you can't disagree with somebody without all that invective says a lot about the value of your point of view.

No, its really dissapointing that you can't wrap you little mind over simple concepts. I, for one, called the death of innocent civilians tragic. I acknowledged that its unfair that innocent people have to be casualties of war. Yet - what solution do you propose? Instead of saying that there must be a different solution, I wan't to hear an example.

I'm sure you'd really like all good people to drop and commit suicide sooner than the possibility of killing innocent civilians. Sorry, but - even after the numerous efforts ate avoiding them - if civilians casualties are incurred in the effort to protect the insignificant number of Jews left in this fucking world, then thats whats going to happen.

One difference between Jews and the Arabs is that Jews aren't exactly expendable. Arabs have no problem bottling up millions of their "brothers" for political reasons, and Hamas has no qualms about hiding in underground shelters while their "brothers" get pulverized in their place. Nor do Arabs have any qualms about strapping bombs onto themselves, or to their children, for that matter.

Is what I'm saying racist? Arabs (for the sake of not generalizing some minor percentage of the population, the "bad" Arabs) prove that a Jewish life is worth more every time they trade a dead soldier for hundreds or even thousands of their own scum live murderers.

It is not in our hands to prevent the murder of workers… and families… but it is in our hands to fix a high price for our blood, so high that the Arab community and the Arab military forces will not be willing to pay it.

- Dayan

466 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:41:28pm

re: #463 sattv4u2

I heard they were down to the shoe leathers. ;D

/teenage boys!

467 American Sabra  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:42:21pm

AemJeff, if you don't mind my stepping in...

You talked a lot about morality and righteousness. However, you're dealing with an Arab culture here who sanctifies death over life. They raise their boys to kill Jews and their girls to marry quickly (hence this post at the beginning) to make more boys to kill Jews. Israel, OTOH, would rather live side-by-side with them in some semblence of peace, since they are the only ones of the two parties who support a 2 state solution, no matter how many others of us think that's insane. I've come around to the idea myself despite the insanity of it. Israel is the one talking 2 state. The Arabs never talk 2 state. Arafat was offered every bit of the land, including 95% of East Jerusalem and he didn't take it. Abbas' position is no different, he's just not as "dyanmic" as Arafat. I don't know if that matters at all.

We can talk about war, who kills who and I have my feelings about that which doesn't match yours, but the crux of the matter is that Israel has no negotiating partner here and unless an Arab, maybe one of those innocent civilians, who decide that life is worth living for and not dying for, emerges, then this will continue for a very long time.

468 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:43:14pm

re: #454 AemJeff

Arrogance? I'll plead somewhat guilty. I have to say I don't think I'm alone in that within this thread.

My 14 year old son KNOWS not to point to others bad behavior as an excuse for HIS bad behavior. Want to move in with me for awhile for more life lessons?

469 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:43:17pm

re: #453 itellu3times


Are you totally unable to imagine yourself in the Israeli role?

I've had the same argument from the other side. A lot of people seem not to be able to see it from one side or the other. I fail to see the difference between the point of view dominant here and the one held by the ISRAEL=NAZI!1! crowd. There's no end to this fight as long as the dominant mode of argument is a bunch of cheerleader for one side or the other jockeying for advantage.

470 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:44:48pm

re: #466 pink freud

I heard they were down to the shoe leathers. ;D

/teenage boys!

the dog was in hiding!

471 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:46:06pm
472 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:46:09pm

re: #469 AemJeff

I've had the same argument from the other side. A lot of people seem not to be able to see it from one side or the other. I fail to see the difference between the point of view dominant here and the one held by the ISRAEL=NAZI!1! crowd.

Try harder.

473 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:46:39pm

re: #454 AemJeff

Arrogance? I'll plead somewhat guilty. I have to say I don't think I'm alone in that within this thread.

You just can't stop whining, can you?

You had to know, as you registered.

Yet you pop into this thread and spout off opinions as if they were facts, then whine when your so-called "facts" get slammed.

Yes, there are some here who are inclined to go to ad homonyms rather quickly, but your comment string is most notable for a total lack of COMPREHENSIVE factuality.

You pick and choose, and you whine.

GAZE

474 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:46:42pm

re: #464 itellu3times

Just to clarify, the Israeli role of being a teenager in a Tel Aviv pizza parlor, or a child in the Sderot area, etc etc etc.

The FMSM sees even those you describe as being the problem; they are Jews and Israelis bent on war and destruction of the innocent peace loving Arabs, stealers of land.

475 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:47:49pm

re: #469 AemJeff

I've had the same argument from the other side. A lot of people seem not to be able to see it from one side or the other. I fail to see the difference between the point of view dominant here and the one held by the ISRAEL=NAZI!1! crowd. There's no end to this fight as long as the dominant mode of argument is a bunch of cheerleader for one side or the other jockeying for advantage.

NEKAMA'S TROLL HAMMER

This is an automated reply from the Bullshit Detector at Little Green Footballs.
Your recent post contained troll-like characteristics which resembles the type of message sent by spoiled ISM members on summer holiday, college students who have recently inhaled Noam Chomsky’s foul rantings, Adam Shapiro wannabes, Nazi sympathizers, or genuine [bigoted word]s.

In order to prevent another thread being hijacked, and to send your message to the appropriate department for response (FOAD, GAZE, Go Away Gordon, or The Bus To Rachel Corrie’s Tomb Is Leaving - Be Sure You’re Under It), kindly reply to the following questions:

1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the [bigoted word]s don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?

2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?

3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?

4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?

5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?

(TO BE CONTINUED)

476 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:48:22pm

re: #470 sattv4u2

the dog was in hiding!

I know! LOL

I've been reading your posts and chuckling the last few days. My son is now 19 ....but I remember those days WELL. AT that age he had a friend who slept over constantly .....they'd clean me out, and sometimes the doorbell would ring at 6 am. One of the more [insert 14-year-old boy-word here] ones would call his dad to being over a couple dozen donuts after they'd completely wiped out my supply of food.

477 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:48:58pm

NEKAMA'S TROLL HAMMER (Continued)

6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?

7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?

8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?

9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?

10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?

11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?

READ THE REST HERE

478 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:49:29pm

re: #469 AemJeff

In adult life, one MUST make decisions (unless you're of the mindset that the gov't should make them all for you as your protectorate and benefactor)

Right or wrong, left or right (geographically as well as politically)
Nazis or Allieds. Union or Confederacy. Red Sox or Yankees

be an adult.

479 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:51:22pm

re: #467 American Sabra

Please, feel free to jump in. Regardless of the "culture" of one side or the other, civilians on both sided are victimized by the conflict. Arguments that assume the value of members of one side is greater than that of the other lead to intolerable conclusions. I'm a westerner with a Jewish family - it's a hell of a lot easier for me to identify with one one of the sides. But I have to take care to remember that the Palestinian citizens probably have it the worst of all the players here, and ought not be consigned as cannon fodder because we don't like the culture they were born into.

480 Floral Giraffe  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:52:41pm

Reine, shouldn't this be in the next cookbook?


re: #323 solomonpanting

I know what you're thinking. "Did I just get slammed by five Lizards or six?"
Well, to tell you the truth, in the midst of these rapid-fire attacks, I lost count myself.
But, seeing as how this is LGF, the most well-run site with the most experienced and erudite commenters in the world, and could blow your goofy moronic liberal/Marxist fantasies clean out of the water, you got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel like pursuing this line of thought?"
Well, do you, punk?

481 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:53:39pm

re: #479 AemJeff

consigned as cannon fodder

PRECISELY how (and by who) are they being "consigned as cannon fodder"

482 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:54:24pm

Guilt

483 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:54:46pm

re: #477 Alouette

I don't think you'll get an answer for those questions today.

484 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:55:08pm

re: #479 AemJeff

Please, feel free to jump in. Regardless of the "culture" of one side or the other, civilians on both sided are victimized by the conflict. Arguments that assume the value of members of one side is greater than that of the other lead to intolerable conclusions. I'm a westerner with a Jewish family - it's a hell of a lot easier for me to identify with one one of the sides. But I have to take care to remember that the Palestinian citizens probably have it the worst of all the players here, and ought not be consigned as cannon fodder because we don't like the culture they were born into.

They are consigned to cannon fodder by THEIR OWN LEADERS, WHICH THEY ELECTED.

485 quickjustice  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:55:37pm

re: #299 AemJeff

Hmm. Repeating the old leftist platitudes, eh? Truman ordered the atom bombs dropped on military targets in Japan. There were civilian casualties as collateral damage. It's difficult to discriminate between military and civilian with a dumb bomb.

The firebombing of Dresden? A horror to be sure, but one launched in retaliation for German bombing of civilian population centers, including London. At the end of WWII, the will of the Germans to resist had been largely destroyed. Apart from a few guerrilla organizations like the Werewolves, who continued to murder occupation allied soldiers after the surrender, the war was over.

That was a drawback of the Iraq War. Casualties on both sides were light because of American strategy and tactics, and many Saddam sympathizers survived to carry on the guerrilla insurgency afterward.

486 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:55:52pm

re: #469 AemJeff

I fail to see the difference between the point of view dominant here and the one held by the ISRAEL=NAZI!1! crowd.

You don't see the difference because you're ignorant and intellectually dishonest, especially with yourself. By not sticking with particular aspects or tangents of discourse and jumping from issue to issue in the larger context instead of working through the specifics, you morally equivocate or take the 'they've both been doing it, but I'm above that' stance.

Grow a fucking sack and become objective, even if it means you'll end up picking a side. Otherwise, you are not different than the JEW=NAZI crowd, though you are better behaved and have impression (especially with yourself) of being intellectual.

487 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:55:55pm

re: #483 jaunte

I don't think you'll get an answer for those questions today.

I just wanted to post Nekama's Troll Hammer for the enjoyment of all the other Lizards here, so they can green-heart it for themselves.

488 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:56:17pm

re: #481 pre-Boomer Marine brat

PRECISELY how (and by who) are they being "consigned as cannon fodder"

Shhh! He wants to be a self-loathing Leberal Jew.

489 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:56:56pm

AemJeff
I'm an Israeli, so I'm not partial, but I expect my government and army (which I served in) to do the maximum to 1) achieve peace 2)protect me and my family. Hamas doesn't see that as its role at all. It therefore has no problem setting up shop in the crowded cities and refugee camps and hiding underground as they leave their civilians above ground to fend for themselves. As we were watching tv coverage of the war my daughter asked me why the Gazan civilians don't going into the shelters like we did when Hizballah tried to fire missiles at our house. I told her the truth. They have bunkers in Gaza, but the Hamas uses them for their fighters, not for their children. Tha's too bad. Protecting Gaza's civilians is not the IDF's job. it's Hamas' job. Too bad they suck at it, or more likely could care less.

490 pink freud  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:57:04pm

re: #479 AemJeff

Please, feel free to jump in. Regardless of the "culture" of one side or the other, civilians on both sided are victimized by the conflict. Arguments that assume the value of members of one side is greater than that of the other lead to intolerable conclusions. I'm a westerner with a Jewish family - it's a hell of a lot easier for me to identify with one one of the sides. But I have to take care to remember that the Palestinian citizens probably have it the worst of all the players here, and ought not be consigned as cannon fodder because we don't like the culture they were born into.

Dude, you've drunk deeply of the koolaid, swallowed a whole passel of some seriously nasty shit. You seem somewhat capable of discernment; why all the idiocy?

491 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:57:42pm

re: #479 AemJeff

Palestinian citizens probably UNDOUBTEDLY have it the worst of all the players here

Allow me to comment by editing your original.

The question is ... WHY IS THAT?

492 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:59:03pm

re: #479 AemJeff

I'm a westerner with a Jewish family - it's a hell of a lot easier for me to identify with one one of the sides. But I have to take care to remember that the Palestinian citizens.....

Again, the 'I'm a Jew' moral superiority does nothing to advance your position, whatever it really is. You're not a Palestinian either so 'taking care to remember Palestinian citizens' is worthless because you are not a Palestinian.

Do you understand how that works?

493 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 12:59:09pm

re: #488 FurryOldGuyJeans

Shhh! He wants to be a self-loathing Leberal Jew.

Half a loath is better than none.

/same applies to wit

494 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:00:36pm

re: #486 BigPapa

Papa, "growing a sack," doesn't mean what I think you think it means. It certainly doesn't mean "coming to the same conclusion as BigPapa. I'll hold my own positions and defend them to the extent I'm capable. If that implies to you that my "sack" is tiny or nonexistent, so be it.

495 quickjustice  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:00:50pm

re: #493 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Groan.

496 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:01:36pm

re: #492 BigPapa

Again, the 'I'm a Jew' moral superiority does nothing to advance your position, whatever it really is. You're not a Palestinian either so 'taking care to remember Palestinian citizens' is worthless because you are not a Palestinian.

Do you understand how that works?

Interesting he had to drop that tidbit of info when all the other bilge water he was trying to get us to drink was proving ineffectual. I add lying to his title of pseudo-intellectual flaming asshole.

497 quickjustice  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:02:43pm

re: #494 AemJeff

Uh, I think you're confused. Look at your sentence construction. "Doesn't mean what I think you think it means"? So what do you think I think you think I think you think it means?

498 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:02:46pm

re: #495 quickjustice

Groan.

*unmanly blush*
Thank you

499 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:03:20pm

re: #494 AemJeff

A sackless prick. Suits you well.

500 quickjustice  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:03:49pm

re: #494 AemJeff

Go ahead, kid! Don't be a sissy! Tell us how big your balls are!

501 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:03:59pm

re: #489 amir

AemJeff
I'm an Israeli, so I'm not partial, but I expect my government and army (which I served in) to do the maximum to 1) achieve peace 2)protect me and my family. Hamas doesn't see that as its role at all. It therefore has no problem setting up shop in the crowded cities and refugee camps and hiding underground as they leave their civilians above ground to fend for themselves. As we were watching tv coverage of the war my daughter asked me why the Gazan civilians don't going into the shelters like we did when Hizballah tried to fire missiles at our house. I told her the truth. They have bunkers in Gaza, but the Hamas uses them for their fighters, not for their children. Tha's too bad. Protecting Gaza's civilians is not the IDF's job. it's Hamas' job. Too bad they suck at it, or more likely could care less.

I agree almost entirely with you. I disagree that IDF's job isn't to protect the lives of civilians on the other side. That is always, in every circumstance, the job of every force representing a civilized nation. How could it be otherwise?

502 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:04:07pm

re: #497 quickjustice

Uh, I think you're confused. Look at your sentence construction. "Doesn't mean what I think you think it means"? So what do you think I think you think I think you think it means?

*scratching head*

/*grin*

503 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:04:09pm

re: #496 FurryOldGuyJeans

Interesting he had to drop that tidbit of info when all the other bilge water he was trying to get us to drink was proving ineffectual. I add lying to his title of pseudo-intellectual flaming asshole.

Its the equivalent as saying I have (Place Minority here) friends.
Lots of straw in that one.

504 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:07:05pm
505 quickjustice  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:07:32pm

re: #501 AemJeff

The primary purpose of a military is to protect its own country from external threats. If you're able to protect civilians in a theater of war, that's a huge bonus, but not a requirement of waging war unless you are reasonably able to do so. The Israelis generally pass this test, BTW.

506 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:07:46pm

re: #496 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm not a Jew. I said I have a Jewish family. The point was about what I'm more likely to understand - Israeli or Palestinian points of view.

507 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:07:56pm

re: #501 AemJeff

I agree almost entirely with you. I disagree that IDF's job isn't to protect the lives of civilians on the other side. That is always, in every circumstance, the job of every force representing a civilized nation. How could it be otherwise?

Let's therefore play your game.
Is the IDF doing that, or not?
IF NOT, precisely where, when and how has it not done so?
Provide links for documentation.

/documentation is standard LGF policy

508 quickjustice  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:08:31pm

re: #504 buzzsawmonkey

I'm a Christian with Jewish family. I don't use my Jewish family as human shields, however!

509 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:09:21pm

re: #494 AemJeff

Papa, "growing a sack," doesn't mean what I think you think it means. It certainly doesn't mean "coming to the same conclusion as BigPapa. I'll hold my own positions and defend them to the extent I'm capable. If that implies to you that my "sack" is tiny or nonexistent, so be it.

And the subject changes again. I think you know what I mean by 'grow a sack' so don't let the implication of a bravado ploy detract from the real issue.

You're not taking much of a position from all of your various statements, other than one of moral superiority because you're sorta Jewish, above it all, and both sides are the same. That's what I'm reading, but I missed posts 200-ish early 400-ish. The funny thing is, your rhetoric hasn't changed since I've rejoined, only the factiods and points have changed.

It's playing the middle for the sake of playing the middle. 'Growing a sack' implies that you may need to rethink your fundamentals, and you may end up on one side or the other.

510 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:09:22pm

re: #504 buzzsawmonkey

AemJeff doesn't say he's a Jew; he says that he "has Jewish family." Who knows what that means, or is supposed to mean? He certainly hasn't said. He's waved it around a few times, as though having some sort of connection--who knows what?--to one or more people able to claim Jewish ethnicity lends credence or moral weight to his anomic maunderings.

In point of fact, all that it does show is his own dim awareness that he is standing in moral quicksand, and is desperately tossing in whatever he can find to slow his sink to the bottom.

It'd be more enjoyable if he rose to the level of the actor in Love at First Bite who waved a Star of David at the vampire.

/hasn't a chance

511 quickjustice  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:09:34pm

re: #506 AemJeff

And the size of your balls is?

512 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:09:39pm
513 traderjoe9  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:10:30pm

re: #479 AemJeff

Please, feel free to jump in. Regardless of the "culture" of one side or the other, civilians on both sided are victimized by the conflict. Arguments that assume the value of members of one side is greater than that of the other lead to intolerable conclusions. I'm a westerner with a Jewish family - it's a hell of a lot easier for me to identify with one one of the sides. But I have to take care to remember that the Palestinian citizens probably have it the worst of all the players here, and ought not be consigned as cannon fodder because we don't like the culture they were born into.

Oh, now I see. We got a self-hating Jew on our hands.

514 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:10:36pm
515 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:11:32pm

re: #506 AemJeff

Ah, so you just drop the tidbit to try to win debate points?

516 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:12:39pm

re: #505 quickjustice

The Israelis generally pass this test, BTW.

Agreed. Though, there have been exceptions.re: #515 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah, so you just drop the tidbit to try to win debate points?

What is unclear about te context or the intent here?

I'm a westerner with a Jewish family - it's a hell of a lot easier for me to identify with one one of the sides.

517 American Sabra  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:13:19pm

re: #479 AemJeff

Please, feel free to jump in. Regardless of the "culture" of one side or the other, civilians on both sided are victimized by the conflict. Arguments that assume the value of members of one side is greater than that of the other lead to intolerable conclusions. I'm a westerner with a Jewish family - it's a hell of a lot easier for me to identify with one one of the sides. But I have to take care to remember that the Palestinian citizens probably have it the worst of all the players here, and ought not be consigned as cannon fodder because we don't like the culture they were born into.

If your Jewish family members have family in Israel, you should speak with them if you can.

The innocent Arab civilians, that is, those who do not actively make or purchase weapons are by and large brainwashed into the same Israeli hating propoganda. It's not the same for Israel, as you know, they have Arabs living and working among them and even have government representation. That should speak miles to you about how the Jews view them. Not the same on the other side. Part of that brainwashing is that Hamas does provide "social service" support for them, even though Israel supplies electricity, heating and water (I believe). They are master manipulators, these Arabs. They've learned from dictatorships. When you make someone your enemy, you can deflect your own abusive tactics onto that enemy. "You wouldn't be poor and destitute if it wasn't for the Jews." That sort of thing when they could have been living in peace with Israel for 60 years. Israel gave them Gaza if you remember, and they destroyed it. Why? It is a pity on them, it's unfair, it isn't moral or righteous, but they do it to themselves. Israel has been the Jewish homeland for some 3500 years and we're not giving it up. That doesn't mean we won't share it (are sharing).

Anyway, please take some time and read what Alouette wrote. It's a good history. You can also look here for FACTS. This isn't biased stuff. This is what happened.

518 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:14:40pm

re: #516 AemJeff

"Agreed. Though, there have been exceptions"

Links?

519 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:14:45pm

re: #516 AemJeff

Though, there have been exceptions

When, where, how?
Provide links for documentation.
Documentation is standard LGF policy.

520 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:15:02pm

re: #516 AemJeff

How much a obfuscating, question avoiding, lying pseudo-intellectual flaming asshole troll can you be? You keep pushing the envelope.

521 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:15:08pm

re: #504 buzzsawmonkey

AemJeff doesn't say he's a Jew; he says that he "has Jewish family." Who knows what that means, or is supposed to mean?

Oh, that's right. A mere oversight on my part. His rhetoric has just decreased in value by .4592 OY Factor.

522 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:15:47pm

re: #479 AemJeff

I'm a westerner with a Jewish family

Are we supposed to be impressed by that?

523 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:16:31pm

re: #509 BigPapa

And the subject changes again. I think you know what I mean by 'grow a sack'

I urged him to do that in #478

524 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:16:32pm

re: #501 AemJeff

I agree almost entirely with you. I disagree that IDF's job isn't to protect the lives of civilians on the other side. That is always, in every circumstance, the job of every force representing a civilized nation. How could it be otherwise?

So you are building those predators to protect civilians on the other side?

My good man, if you value your job, you might just want to leave, now.

525 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:16:35pm
526 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:16:39pm

IIRC, he hasn't posted a single documentation-link to back up his claims

527 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:16:57pm

re: #522 Alouette

Are we supposed to be impressed by that?

We are supposed to ooh an awe.

528 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:18:19pm

re: #501 AemJeff

So if you agree that the Israelis "generally pass the test" except for exceptions, in other words violating Palestinian civilian rights, is exceptional and not the norm, than what exactly is your point?

529 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:19:04pm

re: #522 Alouette

Are we supposed to be impressed by that?

I'm impressed he is stupid enough to think making such a statement would have any weight or bearing here.

530 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:19:22pm

re: #527 DEZes

We are supposed to ooh an awe.

Yeah, like none of us here are Jewish or have Jewish relatives.

/like the shmucks he hangs out with at Huffglue and Electronicintifada

531 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:19:22pm

re: #523 sattv4u2

Brilliant! I hate the Spankees! That's a morally superior position because Boston has better clams and dark beer, and my grandma took a trip there once.

532 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:19:23pm

re: #529 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm impressed he is stupid enough to think making such a statement would have any weight or bearing here.

Xactly.

533 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:21:25pm

re: #531 BigPapa

Brilliant! I hate the Spankees! That's a morally superior position because Boston has better clams and dark beer, and my grandma took a trip there once.

I was born and raised in Boston, but have spent lots of time in NYC. I always said Boston has everything New York has and a lot less of it !

534 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:21:59pm

One thing he is VERY good at -- ignoring things he doesn't want to deal with

535 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:22:52pm

re: #534 pre-Boomer Marine brat

One thing he is VERY good at -- ignoring things he doesn't want to deal with

I bet he has one of these.

536 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:23:02pm

re: #517 American Sabra

I understand this, for the most part. I'm not trying to exonerate the Palestinians, contrary to the assumptions made by the chorus here. The Israelis are not blameless, but they are far more civilized than their opponents. Irgun and their successors, Likud, and the farther Israili Right, are not things that should make any Israeli proud, and by their actions they have muddied any case for clear moral superiority that Israel might want to claim. I think that people on the right are too quick too dismiss any point of view that takes a sympathetic view of ordinary Palestinians.

537 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:23:29pm

re: #525 buzzsawmonkey

He's trying to show what menorah man he is.

"Look at my impressive straining for even-handedness, unlike the rest of you cheerleaders. I even go against my own family's culcha."
////

538 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:24:32pm

Honestly, I thank you AemJeff. This thread prolly wouldn't have gone more than 200 posts if you didn't post as you have.

539 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:25:48pm

re: #536 AemJeff

Promoting evil by being fair. Yup, that's the route to go. You'd be a big hid with the Jihadi set.

540 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:26:25pm
541 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:26:39pm

re: #535 DEZes

I bet he has one of these.

No, I don't think so.
Just an inflated opinion of his own intellect.

He's burying himself in nitpicky details (see his 536) -- on hands and knees with a magnifying glass, examining one toenail of the elephant.

542 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:27:40pm

re: #541 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No, I don't think so.
Just an inflated opinion of his own intellect.

He's burying himself in nitpicky details (see his 536) -- on hands and knees with a magnifying glass, examining one toenail of the elephant.

And doesn't see the tail getting lifted as the beast is about to evacuate.

543 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:27:53pm

re: #536 AemJeff

The Israelis are not blameless, but they are far more civilized than their opponents.

The soft bigotry of low expectations.

544 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:27:57pm

re: #536 AemJeff

I understand this, for the most part. I'm not trying to exonerate the Palestinians, contrary to the assumptions made by the chorus here. ... I think that people on the right are too quick too dismiss any point of view that takes a sympathetic view of ordinary Palestinians.

OK, that's fallacy Jeff. You're being hammered for other reasons, not because 'every one here thinks you're trying to exonerate Palis.'

If you don't understand why you're being hammered, listen/read what I am saying. You get hammered when you implore fallacy and deflection/distraction, and because you aren't taking a real position other than the ones I posed.

Let's try this again: was the story that started this thread biased?

545 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:28:36pm

re: #541 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No, I don't think so.
Just an inflated opinion of his own intellect.

He's burying himself in nitpicky details (see his 536) -- on hands and knees with a magnifying glass, examining one toenail of the elephant.

I saw it, My moral compass must not point in his direction.

546 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:30:00pm

re: #544 BigPapa

Let's try this again: was the story that started this thread biased?

I posted accusing Charles of being too quick to play the "propaganda" card. The rest has been in response to that.

547 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:31:15pm

re: #545 DEZes

I saw it, My moral compass must not point in his direction.

His compass does point where his head is, firmly up his hind quarters.

548 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:31:36pm

Pachydermic Personnel Prediction
*grin* ... a classic

Assembly language programmers prefer to execute Algorithm A on their hands and knees.

549 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:33:26pm

Having perfect moral clarity is one thing. Actually making decisions and doing something about it is another. Treating Israel and Palestinians two arguing sides with somewhat equal footings is does nothing to end the conflict, even though you can claim moral superiority for understanding it all and objectively holding each side accountable.

Doing something about it, morally, is the clearly superior position. This may mean taking sides or applying more criticism to one side than other.

550 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:34:00pm

re: #546 AemJeff

The rest has been in response to that

Oh you innocent little thing, you!

/whining

551 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:34:20pm

re: #546 AemJeff

You didn't answer my question.

552 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:34:21pm

Ah, when the bombs fall? How about when there's the own-goal?

553 enoughalready  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:35:39pm

-203. Wow. You've really been working the room.

(Can't someone write a new and better troll hammer btw, there are a couple of issues with that one?)

554 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:36:46pm

re: #549 BigPapa


Doing something about it, morally, is the clearly superior position. This may mean taking sides or applying more criticism to one side than other.

Agreed. I also think this is more consistent with what I've been posting than with much of what I've been responding to.

555 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:37:08pm

re: #551 BigPapa

You didn't answer my question.

It would have been a 1st if he did

(and wait for it,,, he'll pull the 'because it's not the answer you wanted,,,,' card on you like he has with the rest of us)

Upthread, I asked him a simple yes or no question. he went into a 50 odd (!) word soliloquy that was basically "maybe"

556 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:37:30pm

re: #546 AemJeff

I posted accusing Charles of being too quick to play the "propaganda" card. The rest has been in response to that.

I agree. Charles should have looked on the bright side:

The young woman said she became more determined to find a husband after Israel ‘s three-week war on Hamas

Were it not for the evil Israeli's war she would not possess that gritty determination.
Since love has nothing to do with marriage, may I suggest a new slogan?

"Make Marriage, Not War"

557 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:37:57pm

He is here to bring Light unto the Darkness.

/one thing I'm certain of, he isn't spacejesus' sock -- I will grant him that

558 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:38:54pm

re: #546 AemJeff

You want some cheese with that whine?

559 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:39:02pm

re: #554 AemJeff

Agreed. I also think this is more consistent with what I've been posting than with much of what I've been responding to.

HOW ,,, F***ing HOW ,,, you have been asked POINT BLANK a number of times to give a OPINION on what you would recommend to end this conflict,,,or what you would have done different to end WW 2 rather than the Atom mBomb, and you CONSISTANTLY dodged it by "well ,,,, no killing of civilians is ,,,,,"

560 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:39:53pm

Papa, you like to accuse me of not answering your questions in response to my answers to your questions. Since when do you control the terms of this debate?

561 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:40:28pm

re: #548 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Pachydermic Personnel Prediction
*grin* ... a classic

The extract about Assembly language programmers was VERY deliberate.

/symptoms evident

562 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:40:29pm

re: #554 AemJeff

Oh, poor abused li'l you, so put upon by the big meanies.

563 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:40:41pm

re: #478 sattv4u2

In adult life, one MUST make decisions (unless you're of the mindset that the gov't should make them all for you as your protectorate and benefactor)

Right or wrong, left or right (geographically as well as politically)
Nazis or Allieds. Union or Confederacy. Red Sox or Yankees

be an adult.

Red Sox or Yankees?
Cubs!

564 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:41:25pm

re: #546 AemJeff

I posted accusing Charles of being too quick to play the "propaganda" card. The rest has been in response to that.

Again, that's factually incorrect. If you never posted again after that first one this thread would not be running fast to 600 posts. After that, the dialog has touched on Irgun, Dresden, Atomic weapons, etc.

I'm merely trying to get it back to that point, therefore, why I'm asking the question again. Take away the 'too quick' assertion. Was Charles wrong in pointing out the obvious bias/propaganda in the story? If you don't answer, the only conclusion is that you don't think there was bias.

This thread started out as being about the dating service, with a comment about the obvious bias from and ME reporter. This thread has been driven quickly away from that (by you) into a general IP conflict thread. Can I point out that you are too quick, or maybe not astute to timing or context, to bring up sympathy for Palestinians at the point where Charles pointed out the outright propaganda in an otherwise benign story?

565 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:42:27pm

re: #554 AemJeff

Agreed. I also think this is more consistent with what I've been posting than with much of what I've been responding to.

You decide what you "were responding to" before you entered this thread

566 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:42:38pm

re: #560 AemJeff

It is expected, by the rules of courteous society, to answer questions when asked. But I guess that is beneath you. You are a perfected being.

567 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:43:14pm

re: #559 sattv4u2

HOW ,,, F***ing HOW ,,, you have been asked POINT BLANK a number of times to give a OPINION on what you would recommend to end this conflict,,,or what you would have done different to end WW 2 rather than the Atom mBomb, and you CONSISTANTLY dodged it by "well ,,,, no killing of civilians is ,,,,,"

Satt, why do you think I owe you that? I have no opinion on how to end this conflict. I do think that as long as Hamas and Likud are major actors that it's unlikely that it'll ever end.

568 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:43:34pm

re: #551 BigPapa

re: #560 AemJeff

Papa, you like to accuse me of not answering your questions in response to my answers to your questions. Since when do you control the terms of this debate?

PAPA ,,,, told you

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

569 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:44:00pm

re: #560 AemJeff

Papa, you like to accuse me of not answering your questions in response to my answers to your questions. Since when do you control the terms of this debate?

Debate?! ... don't make me laugh.

And since when do YOU think that YOU control them?

/Arrogance

570 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:44:56pm

re: #569 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Debate?! ... don't make me laugh.

And since when do YOU think that YOU control them?

/Arrogance

Boomer, that's non-sequitur, don't you think? When did I make that claim?

571 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:46:07pm

re: #567 AemJeff

So you want to be the one in control of the argument. Try Kos or HuffPo, they will laud you there.

572 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:47:33pm

re: #567 AemJeff

Satt, why do you think I owe you that? I have no opinion on how to end this conflict. I do think that as long as Hamas and Likud are major actors that it's unlikely that it'll ever end.

I dunno,, an old saying comes to mind

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

As I stated in upthread. be an adult. Make a decision. Pick a side

If you choose to sit it out. Don't come in here with the milquetoast "well,, both sides are good, and both sides are bad". Know what you're getting into coming in here. Spirited and DECISIVE debate

573 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:47:40pm

The truth is that Charles didn't go far enough in pointing out the propaganda of this piece of journalism. The point of the article isn't so much to make Israel look bad but to make Hamas look no different then us. We have dating services, they have dating services. But theirs is not a dating service. Theirs is a marriage matching service for women who cannot find husbands because they are not virgins, to men who cannot find brides because they are very poor or crippled. I don't condemn their effort under the circumstances, but it is this truth that the author fails to mention, and it is the most interesting aspect of this story. Because pointing this out would have the opposite effect of the author's intent.

574 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:47:50pm

re: #554 AemJeff

Agreed. I also think this is more consistent with what I've been posting than with much of what I've been responding to.

OK, but honestly I've not seen which side you've taken except for the sidelines. You seem relatively adept at pointing out who's been bad (although maybe not correct), but not really pointing out who's right or wrong. That may seem semantic, but it's not.

575 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:49:38pm

You guys getting tired of evasions, circular logic and inconsistencies yet?

Been reading and laughing for while now. You'll NEVER pin this guy factually and logically, you realize.

576 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:50:27pm

re: #572 sattv4u2

I dunno,, an old saying comes to mind

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

As I stated in upthread. be an adult. Make a decision. Pick a side

If you choose to sit it out. Don't come in here with the milquetoast "well,, both sides are good, and both sides are bad". Know what you're getting into coming in here. Spirited and DECISIVE debate

Except that that would be factually wrong. There is no simple moral equation that meaningfully captures the truth here. You want to just pick a side? By definition you've already lost any connection to the truth.

577 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:50:44pm

re: #570 AemJeff

Boomer, that's non-sequitur, don't you think? When did I make that claim?

No, I don't think.

LGF is a tough room because debate in here is based upon facts.
You have offered none.
You have offered no substantiation for any of your claims.
You want it your way, and that's arrogance.
You think your way is better, and we should play by your rules, not ours.
This isn't Burger King, newbie.

/THAT is why you're getting hammered.

578 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:51:20pm

re: #575 irongrampa

You guys getting tired of evasions, circular logic and inconsistencies yet?

Been reading and laughing for while now. You'll NEVER pin this guy factually and logically, you realize.

Yeah ,,, I know ,, but I'm at work for 12 hours today. I've done all I have to do up till now so this helps pass the time as opposed to sitting and watching the clock

579 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:51:57pm

re: #570 AemJeff

Boomer, that's non-sequitur, don't you think? When did I make that claim?

Arrogant, self-righteous, and making an ass of yourself.

580 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:52:06pm

re: #577 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It thinks it's winning.

581 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:52:10pm

re: #575 irongrampa

You guys getting tired of evasions, circular logic and inconsistencies yet?

Been reading and laughing for while now. You'll NEVER pin this guy factually and logically, you realize.

I do believe we all know we would have better luck nailing soup to the wall than getting a response from our current troll.

But what the hey, it's kinda fun whacking away. ;)

582 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:52:54pm

re: #575 irongrampa

You guys getting tired of evasions, circular logic and inconsistencies yet?

Been reading and laughing for while now. You'll NEVER pin this guy factually and logically, you realize.

Of course I realize that.
*grin*

583 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:53:54pm

re: #580 BignJames

It thinks it's winning.

I wanna see its' petticoats in motion.

584 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:54:38pm

re: #560 AemJeff

Papa, you like to accuse me of not answering your questions in response to my answers to your questions. Since when do you control the terms of this debate?

BP "Jeff, is this red or blue?"
Jeff "I mentioned green and everybody is giving me shit for it"
BP "Uh, no. We're not talking about green. Is this red or blue?"
Jeff "I answered your question, sorry if you don't accept it. Who are you to control the terms of the debate?"

Did that about contextualize it? I don't create the rules of debate, I adhere to them. It's called logic. If we aren't going to stick to a logical discourse, then it's not a logical debate.

585 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:54:39pm

re: #576 AemJeff

So you win by doing nothing and letting evil triumph?

586 jaunte  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:54:44pm

Claiming that a post (that simply points out a propaganda slant in a story) is somehow unfair to the common Palestinian is neither right nor moral, it's just stupid.

587 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:55:09pm

re: #582 pre-Boomer Marine brat


Like the way your mind works, sir.

588 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:55:32pm

re: #574 BigPapa

OK, but honestly I've not seen which side you've taken except for the sidelines. You seem relatively adept at pointing out who's been bad (although maybe not correct), but not really pointing out who's right or wrong. That may seem semantic, but it's not.

Fair enough. I think Sharon (whom I think bears a huge personal responsibility for his actions) did a hell of a lot of good, just before his infirmity. I think Abbas, to the extent that his position allows, has a constructive attitude. I think Ehud Barach was sincerely after peace in 2000. There's plenty of good intentions among many of the players.

Ultimately I think Hamas and Likud each has an existential stake in continued conflict, however.

589 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:56:29pm

re: #582 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Btw, the trout were cooperative again this AM--breakfast was superb.

590 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:56:36pm

re: #573 amir

That's a very good point amir and worthy of note.

591 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:57:42pm

re: #588 AemJeff

How do you explain that after Sharon and Barack did all that good stuff, Israel suffered the greatest amount of terror (not too mention all the good stuff Rabin did) but enjoys the greatest amount of peace after the bad war in Lebanon and Gaza?

592 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:57:59pm

re: #589 irongrampa

Btw, the trout were cooperative again this AM--breakfast was superb.

YOU CANNIBAL!

/*sniff* ... Killgore, we're gonna really miss you!

593 American Sabra  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:59:34pm

re: #536 AemJeff

You have to read the history of Israel, the Jews and the Arabs in the region. You have to understand all the facts as they happened before you make a judgment. And from some of the things you said, I don't think you've done that.

Your comment upthread that Sharon threatened the Arabs by going to the Mount. The Temple, the Mount was built by Solomon and is the most holy of holies to the Jews. Third most in Islam. The mosque is a desecration to our Temple btw, yet do you hear any Jew talking about that? Every Jew on the planet should be welcome at the courtyard of the Temple where Sharon was. He did not enter. As a tourist, you can visit too. The Arabs used this visit as a ruse to start the second infitada where the most violent of bombings continued through 2004 (2002-2003 being the worst). All because the PM visited their 3rd most holy site, the most important place in Judaism?

594 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:59:45pm

re: #576 AemJeff

Except that that would be factually wrong. There is no simple moral equation that meaningfully captures the truth here. You want to just pick a side? By definition you've already lost any connection to the truth.

I see. So I guess The USA lost connection with the truth in 1940. I guess England lost connection with the truth in 1796 when they took Irelands side when Napolean invaded. I guess Australia lost connection when they jumped into WW 2. I guess Virginia lost connection when it was forced to choose a side in the civil war

No , there is no "simple" equation. We don't live in some nirvana land where everyone is equal and everything is groovy with sugarplum skies and gumdrop streets. Thats why have to people HAVE to make decisions and choices.

595 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:00:37pm

re: #591 amir

Shhhh! Facts will only confuse it!

596 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:00:39pm
597 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:00:48pm

re: #591 amir

How do you explain that after Sharon and Barack did all that good stuff, Israel suffered the greatest amount of terror (not too mention all the good stuff Rabin did) but enjoys the greatest amount of peace after the bad war in Lebanon and Gaza?

I'd ask you why you think it might have been otherwise. Hamas has a real interest in continuing the conflict. As long as they can fan the flames, the keep their power base. Any motion toward peace is going to create enormous pushback. That one of the biggest reasons the damned conflict drags on and on.

598 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:01:26pm

re: #576 AemJeff

Except that that would be factually wrong.

AND ,, please point out where I was "factually wrong"

This is what I posted
I dunno,, an old saying comes to mind

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

As I stated in upthread. be an adult. Make a decision. Pick a side

If you choose to sit it out. Don't come in here with the milquetoast "well,, both sides are good, and both sides are bad". Know what you're getting into coming in here. Spirited and DECISIVE debate

599 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:01:40pm

re: #588 AemJeff

I'd like you to note something. I didn't down-ding that post (even though I disagree strongly with your comment about Abbas.)

Why?

Because your phrasing was consistently "I think..."

/let's see if that tells you something

600 amir  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:02:25pm

OK guys, it's midnight here. I'm out of the red. Goodnight.

601 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:02:41pm

re: #572 sattv4u2

As I stated in upthread. be an adult. Make a decision. Pick a side

Jeff, as I suspected, if somebody said this phrase in this context I knew you'd point it out. It's quite ironic, because you've seem to have chosen a side and spend the rest of your time validating it: the sidelines, or, neither, or, None Of The Above.

'Picking a side' could be a simple or very long ranging and complex endeavor. In this complex situation, 'picking a side' means looking through all the facts objectively and coming to conclusions, even if it means you're going to end up on one side, all things considered.

Either you've picked a side and figured out that both sides are equally right/wrong, or you haven't picked one at all, or you've chosen the 'neither' box. That's a very thin razor you're balancing on if you have chosen a side.

602 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:03:00pm

re: #594 sattv4u2

I see. So I guess The USA lost connection with the truth in 1940. I guess England lost connection with the truth in 1796 when they took Irelands side when Napolean invaded. I guess Australia lost connection when they jumped into WW 2. I guess Virginia lost connection when it was forced to choose a side in the civil war

No , there is no "simple" equation. We don't live in some nirvana land where everyone is equal and everything is groovy with sugarplum skies and gumdrop streets. Thats why have to people HAVE to make decisions and choices.

You guys are still going at it with this asshole? I'd rather listen to some Barry Manilow music! (well, maybe that is going too far)

603 American Sabra  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:03:13pm

re: #593 American Sabra

You have to read the history of Israel, the Jews and the Arabs in the region. You have to understand all the facts as they happened before you make a judgment. And from some of the things you said, I don't think you've done that.

Your comment upthread that Sharon threatened the Arabs by going to the Mount. The Temple, the Mount was built by Solomon and is the most holy of holies to the Jews. Third most in Islam. The mosque is a desecration to our Temple btw, yet do you hear any Jew talking about that? Every Jew on the planet should be welcome at the courtyard of the Temple where Sharon was. He did not enter. As a tourist, you can visit too. The Arabs used this visit as a ruse to start the second infitada where the most violent of bombings continued through 2004 (2002-2003 being the worst). All because the PM visited their 3rd most holy site, the most important place in Judaism?

2006 sorry

604 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:04:50pm

re: #602 VegasRick

I gave up and made popcorn, seriously.

605 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:06:01pm

re: #602 VegasRick

You guys are still going at it with this asshole? I'd rather listen to some Barry Manilow music! (well, maybe that is going too far)

just for you,, , and Mandy

606 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:06:49pm

re: #604 DEZes

I gave up and made popcorn, seriously.

I don't blame you.

607 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:07:27pm

re: #605 sattv4u2

just for you,, , and Mandy



Bastid!
/

608 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:07:28pm

re: #593 American Sabra

You have to read the history of Israel, the Jews and the Arabs in the region. You have to understand all the facts as they happened before you make a judgment. And from some of the things you said, I don't think you've done that.

Your comment upthread that Sharon threatened the Arabs by going to the Mount. The Temple, the Mount was built by Solomon and is the most holy of holies to the Jews. Third most in Islam. The mosque is a desecration to our Temple btw, yet do you hear any Jew talking about that? Every Jew on the planet should be welcome at the courtyard of the Temple where Sharon was. He did not enter. As a tourist, you can visit too. The Arabs used this visit as a ruse to start the second infitada where the most violent of bombings continued through 2004 (2002-2003 being the worst). All because the PM visited their 3rd most holy site, the most important place in Judaism?

He chose the anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre for that event. It was an apparently deliberate provocation not just some random visit by a tourist.

609 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:07:46pm

re: #597 AemJeff

I'd ask you why you think it might have been otherwise. Hamas has a real interest in continuing the conflict. As long as they can fan the flames, the keep their power base.

You somewhat equivocated Likud and Hamas in a sentence above. Would you use this statement to describe Likud? To any extent at all?

610 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:08:40pm

re: #602 VegasRick

You guys are still going at it with this asshole? I'd rather listen to some Barry Manilow music! (well, maybe that is going too far)

I'm a big fan of taking an 24 volt cordless hammer drill with a 1/8th inch drill bit and seeing how far into my ear canal I can get it

611 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:09:02pm

re: #597 AemJeff

As long as they [Hamas] can fan the flames, the keep their power base.

It's all about a "power base" in your eyes?
Hamas' al Qassam Brigades are all about maintaining political power base?
This makes them a symmetrical parallel to Likud?

You are, at best, a shallowly-educated fool.
At worst, a politicized demagogue.

612 VegasRick  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:10:58pm

re: #611 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's all about a "power base" in your eyes?
Hamas' al Qassam Brigades are all about maintaining political power base?
This makes them a symmetrical parallel to Likud?

You are, at best, a shallowly-educated fool.
At worst, a politicized demagogue.

Shit stirring jerkoff not a possibility?
/

613 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:12:34pm

re: #609 BigPapa

Emphatically, yes. Likud is the remnant of Irgun, just as vile a terrorist organization as Hamas, and is the personal creation of Sharon, long before he began to redeem himself late in his life.

614 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:13:19pm

re: #609 BigPapa

You somewhat equivocated Likud and Hamas in a sentence above. Would you use this statement to describe Likud? To any extent at all?

You noticed that too!

He thinks Hamas, with its al Qassam Brigades, is essentially a mirror image of Likud -- AND VICE VERSA.

This idiot is incredibly tightly focused on what it wants to believe.

615 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:13:59pm

re: #611 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Boomer, it's always about power.

616 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:15:59pm

re: #613 AemJeff

just as vile a terrorist organization as Hamas

You did NOT state that as opinion.
You stated it as FACT.
Document it, asshole.

/Irgun was not filled with saints, but I want some DOCUMENTATION

617 American Sabra  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:17:40pm

re: #536 AemJeff

I understand this, for the most part. I'm not trying to exonerate the Palestinians, contrary to the assumptions made by the chorus here. The Israelis are not blameless, but they are far more civilized than their opponents. Irgun and their successors, Likud, and the farther Israili Right, are not things that should make any Israeli proud, and by their actions they have muddied any case for clear moral superiority that Israel might want to claim. I think that people on the right are too quick too dismiss any point of view that takes a sympathetic view of ordinary Palestinians.

No, you are not exonerating the Arabs, you are saying they are equal to the Jews in this regard and they are not. It's not a question ot "better" or "worse". The Jews are not superior. They just want to live on the land that they have lived on for 3500 years. (More like 3800 I think actually... but what's a couple 100 years between friends).

618 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:18:44pm

re: #615 AemJeff

Boomer, it's always about power.

You are an idiot.

There is power, and there is power.

There is also ideology, which (initially, at least) transcends political power by getting its "power" from within.

619 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:19:10pm
620 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:19:15pm

re: #613 AemJeff

Emphatically, yes. Likud is the remnant of Irgun, just as vile a terrorist organization as Hamas, and is the personal creation of Sharon, long before he began to redeem himself late in his life.

That's an extremely strong statement, worthy of further discussion. Even through the context of different times and environments, the Irgun of yesteryear and Hamas of today, both terrorists?

621 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:20:43pm

re: #616 pre-Boomer Marine brat


Document it, asshole.

/Irgun was not filled with saints, but I want some DOCUMENTATION

Sure, fuckwad - how's this, for instance?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

622 American Sabra  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:21:47pm

re: #608 AemJeff

He chose the anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre for that event. It was an apparently deliberate provocation not just some random visit by a tourist.

He can go 365 days a year. Any Jew can go, they just can't go inside the Temple Mount and Sharon did not. Well when I was in Israel, you were allowed to go inside even though there's a sign that says "Jews cannot enter". Our religion tells us that only Holy men can enter, but you can go around the plaza any day of the week.

623 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:21:51pm

re: #597 AemJeff

I'd ask you why you think it might have been otherwise. Hamas has a real interest in continuing the conflict. As long as they can fan the flames, the keep their power base. Any motion toward peace is going to create enormous pushback. That one of the biggest reasons the damned conflict drags on and on.

The surrounding Arab and Muslim countries have a real interest in continuing the conflict and that IS the reason the conflict has dragged on.

624 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:22:32pm

re: #621 AemJeff

Kidnapped two British in 1947? OK. Keep it coming.

625 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:23:19pm

AemJeff, you are evasive.
You are a dodger.
In essence, in the context, you are behaving as a liar.
What's much worse, you are so full of yourself that you can't see it.

I've been slammed for much the same, decades ago.
I've tried to grow out of it.
/just sayin'

626 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:24:25pm

re: #619 buzzsawmonkey

Nonsense. The Irgun targeted soldiers, not civilians. Hamas targets civilians.

He is a blatant liar, and he doesn't think he is.
He's proud of his sanctimonious self.

627 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:24:58pm

re: #622 American Sabra

He can go 365 days a year. Any Jew can go, they just can't go inside the Temple Mount and Sharon did not. Well when I was in Israel, you were allowed to go inside even though there's a sign that says "Jews cannot enter". Our religion tells us that only Holy men can enter, but you can go around the plaza any day of the week.

Now you're being disingenuous. He did not need to go at the time of a memorial for people whose deaths could be laid at his feet. It's extremely difficult to beleve that a canny politician like Sharon did not know exactly what he was doing.

628 American Sabra  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:25:02pm

re: #608 AemJeff

You understand the Temple was originally built by King Solomon about 1000 years before Islam was even a thought?

629 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:25:27pm
630 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:26:35pm

re: #624 BigPapa

Kidnapped two British in 1947? OK. Keep it coming.

Try reading the article:

Murder of Paice and Martin

That morning, eighteen days after the kidnapping, Assaf was already on his way to Tel Aviv to meet with the Irgun chief of staff, Haim Landau, and told him the sergeants were to be hanged. Paglin arrived in Netanya and met with Assaf. They drove around Netanya looking for a suitable grove but found military vehicles and large police forces everywhere they turned, and so they returned to Netanya.

Paglin concluded there was only one option: to hang them at the plant itself. He was not disputed, but it was obviously a problem, as the hangings were meant as a lesson for all to see. That was so clear that the mayor of Tel Aviv, Yisrael Rokah, feared Irgun would hang them in the city’s main square, while in Netanya it was feared that they would be hanged on local lamp posts. Haganah increased its patrols around the city centers, which made the transfers even more difficult. In the afternoon Paglin and four others arrived at the bunker. Paice and Martin were blindfolded and nooses were fixed to the ceiling. Their hands and feet were tied, and they were put on chairs. At around 18:00 they were killed by slow strangulation.[8] The "blackened, bloodied"[8] condition of their bodies when found suggests that they had been severely beaten at some point before being murdered.

631 American Sabra  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:26:41pm

re: #627 AemJeff

Now you're being disingenuous. He did not need to go at the time of a memorial for people whose deaths could be laid at his feet. It's extremely difficult to beleve that a canny politician like Sharon did not know exactly what he was doing.

If you're justifying a 6 year war, targeting people on buses and pizza parlors that had nothing to do with what Sharon did, even if you disagree, than you have no moral compass.

632 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:27:41pm

re: #621 AemJeff

Sure, fuckwad - how's this, for instance?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

ummm,, perhaps you should READ your links prior to posting them as "proof"

From it

Five days later, Irgun kidnapped five British officers in Tel Aviv, and another one the following day in Jerusalem. Two weeks later, perhaps due to the kidnappings, Eshbal and Simchon’s sentences were mitigated to life imprisonment. The officers were released the next day.[3]

As stated (not by you, mind you) Irgun targeted MILITARY. They also RELEASED THEM.
Where is the equivelnece to Hamas?

633 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:28:40pm

re: #621 AemJeff

Sure, fuckwad - how's this, for instance?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

See buzzsawmonkey's reply, quoted below. You just stepped right into a huge pile of it, as I figured you would if you tried to "document".

re: #619 buzzsawmonkey

Nonsense. The Irgun targeted soldiers, not civilians. Hamas targets civilians.

634 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:29:50pm

re: #536 AemJeff

I understand this, for the most part. I'm not trying to exonerate the Palestinians, contrary to the assumptions made by the chorus here. The Israelis are not blameless, but they are far more civilized than their opponents. Irgun and their successors, Likud, and the farther Israili Israeli Right, are not things that should make any Israeli proud, and by their actions they have muddied any case for clear moral superiority that Israel might want to claim. I think that people on the right are too quick too dismiss any point of view that takes a sympathetic view of ordinary Palestinians.

Do you know it as a fact that everyone here is on the right? Do you know it as a fact that everyone here is "too quick too dismiss" any "view that takes a sympathetic view" of ordinary Palestinians.

I would bet you that most of the people with whom you have engaged in conversation believe that the ordinary Palestinian has been treated terribly ... by their own leadership. The Palestinians could have had peace long long ago.

Furthermore, the 1967 war did not have to occur. Eleven years earlier - in 1956 - Egypt had denied Israel access to the Straits of Tiran. Israel conquered the Sinai at that time and Eisenhower forced Israel to immediately return the Sinai. In return for the Sinai, the United States pledged to Israel to defend Israel's right to the sea lanes. Come 1967, Egypt again denied Israel access to the Straits of Tiran. Had the United States honored her pledge to Israel, the '67 war might not have been held and the Arabs would have retained control of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and even East Jerusalem. The Arabs could then have created the Palestinian state and everyone would be happy. But then again, Gaza, Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem were always used as a ruse for well meaning but naive folk such as yourself. But then again, the settlements were always used as a ruse. And then again, the Palestinian refugees have always been used as a ruse.

Finally, I think your head is in the right place. Your comments here and your website show your life of life. I applaud you. No true Scotsman wants anyone wishes war and all its horrors on anyone (the Talmud even tells us that if we see our enemies ass walking down the street, we are to return it. The Torah is about loving thy neighbor as thyself). So while I praise your good spirit, and you are obviously bright, I do strongly believe you are naive but that will be taken care of by time).

635 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:32:41pm

re: #630 AemJeff

Try reading the article

I've read the article. Again. So, two Brits murdered in 1947: therefore, Irgun = Hamas? Why don't you bring up Dier Yassin?

At this rate, it will take you years to make a serious case that Irgun (which technically doesn't exist) and Hamas.

636 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:33:32pm
637 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:33:40pm

re: #632 sattv4u2

What, you want more links? Land mines planted in Arab Markets? In the Souk in Jerusalem (10 killed. 70 more in Haifa.) The retaliatory hanging of British soldiers I already linked to? Try reading the links I've already posted.

638 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:35:19pm

I'm not reacting to his website. I haven't seen it.
I'm reacting to what he's saying here.

He's just compared the horrific murders of two British soldiers to an ongoing effort to kill Israeli civilians and to destroy Israel itself.

He is, on this subject, a hater.
Why, I don't know, and don't care.
I simply will not let it go unanswered.

639 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:36:54pm

re: #637 AemJeff

[Link: www.google.com...]

These are all recent.
Knock yourself out.

640 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:37:11pm

re: #637 AemJeff

What, you want more links? Land mines planted in Arab Markets? In the Souk in Jerusalem (10 killed. 70 more in Haifa.) The retaliatory hanging of British soldiers I already linked to? Try reading the links I've already posted.

Now you're talking! See ,, you CAN pick sides. I can see the OUTRAGE in you against the Israeli acts!

Good for you !

((btw,,,, notice that besides the bromide 'both sides do bad things' there has not been the equivalent pinpointing and outrage against Pali atrocities from you,,,, telling!))

641 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:37:48pm

re: #608 AemJeff

He chose the anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre for that event. It was an apparently deliberate provocation not just some random visit by a tourist.

You have a link to prove that it was a deliberate decision?

642 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:37:56pm

re: #608 AemJeff

He chose the anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre for that event. It was an apparently deliberate provocation not just some random visit by a tourist.

Let's play make believe and say you're correct that the Palestinians launched their war for this reason. And that riots and deaths are the result of some cartoons. And that riots and deaths are the result of stories of desecrated korans. And that riots and deaths are the result of faux stories of korans being flushed down toilets.
I suppose some folks are just more easily provoked than others, huh?

643 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:39:04pm

re: #642 solomonpanting

Let's play make believe and say you're correct that the Palestinians launched their war for this reason. And that riots and deaths are the result of some cartoons. And that riots and deaths are the result of stories of desecrated korans. And that riots and deaths are the result of faux stories of korans being flushed down toilets.
I suppose some folks are just more easily provoked than others, huh?


too much floride in the water supply will do that to a peoples!

//

644 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:39:13pm

re: #637 AemJeff

What, you want more links? Land mines planted in Arab Markets? In the Souk in Jerusalem (10 killed. 70 more in Haifa.) The retaliatory hanging of British soldiers I already linked to? Try reading the links I've already posted.

Links PLURAL?

C'mon, let's see plural links, and LINKS PERTAINING TO THE PRESENT DAY

645 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:39:23pm

re: #640 sattv4u2

Now you're talking! See ,, you CAN pick sides. I can see the OUTRAGE in you against the Israeli acts!

Good for you !

Good job Dr Satt4u2! You're making progress.

646 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:40:02pm

re: #645 BigPapa

Good job Dr Satt4u2! You're making progress.

I'll see him every Wednesday for an hour. I have a nice comfy couch!

647 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:40:31pm

re: #644 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Links PLURAL?

C'mon, let's see plural links, and LINKS PERTAINING TO THE PRESENT DAY

1=links, who knew?

648 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:42:59pm

re: #647 DEZes

1=links, who knew?

All he can come up with is stuff back in the Mandate era.
(and yes, there is stuff back there)

He's up shit creek.
/and he calls this a "debate"?

649 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:43:24pm

Glad to see we're all keeping our sense of humor. Once somebody goes ALL CAPSES, then it's 'delete my account, have a nice day mother******' with a smiley face finish.

650 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:45:29pm

re: #649 BigPapa

Glad to see we're all keeping our sense of humor. Once somebody goes ALL CAPSES, then it's 'delete my account, have a nice day mother******' with a smiley face finish.

WHATTAYA MEAN?!
YOU #&@%&@*&(%#)&(*%A#

///// ... adding smiley face ... now ... (-:

651 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:45:32pm

re: #640 sattv4u2

Now you're talking! See ,, you CAN pick sides. I can see the OUTRAGE in you against the Israeli acts!

Good for you !

((btw,,,, notice that besides the bromide 'both sides do bad things' there has not been the equivalent pinpointing and outrage against Pali atrocities from you,,,, telling!))

You're pretty good at selective reading. The point is about the Hamas/Likud equvalence. We've stipulated to the Palestinian atrocities - worse, I'd say than anything the Israelis are guilty of. The point here is the unsavory origin of Likud. I'll try to be clear - trying to make the point that the Israelis are not innocent is not the same as saying they're equally culpable. A fair measure of the evil for which the Israelis and their predecessors do bear responsibility seems to traceable to Likud, Sharon, and Irgun.

652 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:45:41pm

re: #648 pre-Boomer Marine brat

All he can come up with is stuff back in the Mandate era.
(and yes, there is stuff back there)

He's up shit creek.
/and he calls this a "debate"?

I read his link, and responded with hundreds of Hamas murders.
Let him find 1 confirmed Likud murder.

653 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:46:23pm

OT ,, don't know if there are any NASCAR fans here, but Tony Stewart was forced to start in the dead last spot (because he had to use a back-up car after crashing his #1 car in practice) is currently in 1st with 12 laps to go

654 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:47:09pm

re: #608 AemJeff

He chose the anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre for that event. It was an apparently deliberate provocation not just some random visit by a tourist.

Sharon visited the Temple Mount on September 28, 2000. It was erev Rosh Hashannah. Sabra and Shatilla occurred between September 16-18th.

655 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:47:16pm

re: #644 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Links PLURAL?

C'mon, let's see plural links, and LINKS PERTAINING TO THE PRESENT DAY

Please explain how "LINKS PERTAINING TO THE PRESENT DAY" have any bearng on the actions of the political precursor to Likud.

656 Floral Giraffe  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:51:57pm

AemJeff, you can do it!
Only 3 more slots to fill, before you have all 10 of the bottom comments!
GO!

657 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:52:41pm

re: #651 AemJeff

You're pretty good at selective reading. The point is about the Hamas/Likud equvalence. We've stipulated to the Palestinian atrocities - worse, I'd say than anything the Israelis are guilty of. The point here is the unsavory origin of Likud. I'll try to be clear - trying to make the point that the Israelis are not innocent is not the same as saying they're equally culpable. A fair measure of the evil for which the Israelis and their predecessors do bear responsibility seems to traceable to Likud, Sharon, and Irgun.

Why make the point that Israelis are not innocent? This known, facts are known, this is understood by all here, but saying it in that way doesn't mean anything. You're bringing it up as a counterpoint for the sake of equivocating Hamas to Likud. With all I know, there is no comparison beyond the benign or remote. Your assertion is outdated, not relevant to scale or current events. It is also lacking in specific facts.

658 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:52:55pm

re: #651 AemJeff

A fair measure of the evil for which the Israelis and their predecessors do bear responsibility seems to traceable to Likud, Sharon, and Irgun.

See Buzz's #636 buzzsawmonkey

Again, you can't come up with anything more current than the Mandate era. You are reaching way back into the past, rather than dealing with the here-and-now.

IMHO, this ranting against Likud is a means of directing your anger at something.

659 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:54:04pm

re: #651 AemJeff

and you're pretty good (yet far from the best) at dodgeball and obfuscation. At answering a question with a question. At deflecting a direct question about bad behaviour by pointing to OTHER bad behaviour, and by attempting to snatch the moral high ground by being offended that someone would have the audacity to use bad language to you.

I'm not sure what age range you are, your level of education, your background (other than somewhere in your family tree a thrid cousin that lived with a distant uncle who had a second wife whose next door neighbor was Jewish, or some such thing) but I would aedmonish you to grow up!

Take that with as many grains of Kosher salt as you want too

660 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:54:33pm

re: #651 AemJeff

You're pretty good at selective reading. The point is about the Hamas/Likud equvalence. We've stipulated to the Palestinian atrocities - worse, I'd say than anything the Israelis are guilty of. The point here is the unsavory origin of Likud. I'll try to be clear - trying to make the point that the Israelis are not innocent is not the same as saying they're equally culpable. A fair measure of the evil for which the Israelis and their predecessors do bear responsibility seems to traceable to Likud, Sharon, and Irgun.

Considering that Sharon is brain dead, and the current leaders of Likud have nothing to do with the Irgun and the Stern Gang, I don't see what your point is.

661 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:54:46pm

re: #655 AemJeff

Please explain how "LINKS PERTAINING TO THE PRESENT DAY" have any bearng on the actions of the political precursor to Likud.

We live in the present.
You can choose to do otherwise, but you don't control the terms of debate

662 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:54:52pm

re: #655 AemJeff

Please explain how "LINKS PERTAINING TO THE PRESENT DAY" have any bearng on the actions of the political precursor to Likud.

And would you explain how something that happened over 50 years ago reflects on Likud today.

663 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:56:47pm

re: #652 DEZes

Let him find 1 confirmed Likud murder.

He did. In 1947.

So far, I wonder when we can review the 'scale' construct. I recall a few hundred threads ago how Israel reacted too strongly to Hamas; does this mean that Hamas, who kills way more people (including non combatants) than Irgun... did... 60 years ago, is a horrible comparison and equivocation?

664 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:57:03pm

re: #656 Floral Giraffe

AemJeff, you can do it!
Only 3 more slots to fill, before you have all 10 of the bottom comments!
GO!

Speaking of which, I have cracked the top 10 before (as well as the bottom 1-0 to my chagrin) but until today I have NEVER had 2 out of the top 5 at the same time!

It's good to be me !

//

665 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:57:21pm

re: #654 Stuart Leviton

Sharon visited the Temple Mount on September 28, 2000. It was erev Rosh Hashannah. Sabra and Shatilla occurred between September 16-18th.

Those dates are separated by less than two weeks. The commemoration occurred on Sept 16. Sharon arrived on the twenty-eighth. He was an immediate and obvious symbol of the massacre and arrived with hundreds of armed police in a pretty obvious show of power. I think it's pretty difficult to argue there are any coincidences here.

666 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:57:34pm

re: #652 DEZes

I read his link, and responded with hundreds of Hamas murders.
Let him find 1 confirmed Likud murder.

Precisely.

I'm sure there were crimes (legally addressable as such) committed against the British during our War of Independence. By his logic, present-day America is guilty for those.

667 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:58:34pm

re: #663 BigPapa

He did. In 1947.

So far, I wonder when we can review the 'scale' construct. I recall a few hundred threads ago how Israel reacted too strongly to Hamas; does this mean that Hamas, who kills way more people (including non combatants) than Irgun... did... 60 years ago, is a horrible comparison and equivocation?

Thats not the same group.

668 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 2:59:21pm

re: #657 BigPapa

Why make the point that Israelis are not innocent? This known, facts are known, this is understood by all here, but saying it in that way doesn't mean anything. You're bringing it up as a counterpoint for the sake of equivocating Hamas to Likud. With all I know, there is no comparison beyond the benign or remote. Your assertion is outdated, not relevant to scale or current events. It is also lacking in specific facts.

He has some sort of obsession regarding Likud. Don't know why.

669 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:00:52pm

re: #668 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He's a Likud-nyuck.

670 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:02:32pm

re: #656 Floral Giraffe

AemJeff, you can do it!
Only 3 more slots to fill, before you have all 10 of the bottom comments!
GO!

And, if you act fast, we'll send you and a guest on a free all-expenses paid fact-finding tour to Gaza, where you'll be spending the rest of your nights in the magnificent Peek-Abu Hotel. This fine establishment comes furnished with Hamas-inspired holding rooms for innocent civilians while rockets are being fired into Territory of the Occupiers.
Plus, you'll be entitled to an all-day audio history on the Cradle-to-Grave social policy instituted by your esteemed hosts.
Don't be late for this bonus or Hamas will be more than happy to demonstrate the Grave aspect.
................
...................
HURRY NOW!

671 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:03:33pm

re: #665 AemJeff

I think it's pretty difficult to argue there are any coincidences here

I think it's pretty easy to feel that you've got a serious axe to grind.
You're willing to twist and turn to keep your so-called "argument" for it alive.

What is it about Likud which you hate so much?

672 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:04:06pm

re: #669 BigPapa

He's a Likud-nyuck.

nyuck nyuck nyuck

673 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:05:14pm

re: #665 AemJeff

Those dates are separated by less than two weeks. The commemoration occurred on Sept 16. Sharon arrived on the twenty-eighth. He was an immediate and obvious symbol of the massacre and arrived with hundreds of armed police in a pretty obvious show of power. I think it's pretty difficult to argue there are any coincidences here.

ARIEL SHARON TROOF!

674 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:05:40pm

re: #669 BigPapa

He's a Likud-nyuck.


;)

675 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:06:16pm
676 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:07:00pm

re: #668 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He has some sort of obsession regarding Likud. Don't know why.

I have a great deal of antipathy toward Sharon, and I see Likud as his handiwork. The Likun charter denies anything even resembling a Palestinian state, and is the foundation of the Settlement movement. I view them as the Israeli personification of anti-Arab bias (or worse) and I think they have something to gain from the continuance of the conflict. On the other hand Netanyahu has been making some reasonable noises lately (the choice of Lieberman notwithstanding.) So, I'll wait and see, presently.

677 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:07:08pm

re: #665 AemJeff

Those dates are separated by less than two weeks. The commemoration occurred on Sept 16. Sharon arrived on the twenty-eighth. He was an immediate and obvious symbol of the massacre and arrived with hundreds of armed police in a pretty obvious show of power. I think it's pretty difficult to argue there are any coincidences here.

You're 100% right.

Speaking of coincidences that can't be argued against:

- Lincoln's name has 7 letters
- Kennedy's name has 7 letters

- In Lincoln's & Kennedy's names the vowels & consonants fall in exactly the same place;***
in the order c, v, c, c, v, c, c

- Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846
- Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946

- Lincoln was elected president in 1860
- Kennedy was elected president in 1960

- Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln

- War was thrust upon Lincoln almost immediately after inauguration
- War was thrust upon Kennedy almost immediately after inauguration

- Lincoln ordered the Treasury to print its own money
- Kennedy ordered the Treasury to print its own money

- International bankers may have arranged the assassinations of Lincoln and Kennedy

- Lincoln gave negroes freedom and legalized equality
- Kennedy enforced equality for negroes

- Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address on November 19, 1863
- Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963

- Lincoln was loved by the common people and hated by the establishment
- Kennedy was loved by the common people and hated by the establishment

- Lincoln was succeeded, after assassination, by vice-president Johnson
- Kennedy was succeeded, after assassination, by vice-president Johnson

- Andrew Johnson was born in 1808
- Lyndon Johnson was born in 1908

- Andrew Johnson's name has 13 letters
- Lyndon Johnson's name has 13 letters

- Lincoln was sitting beside his wife when he was shot
- Kennedy was sitting beside his wife when he was shot

- Rathbone, who was with Lincoln when he was shot, was injured (by being stabbed)--------------NEW
- Connally, who was with Kennedy when he was shot, was injured (by being shot)
- Rathbone's name has 8 letters
- Connally's name has 8 letters

- Lincoln's wife held his head in her lap after he was shot--------------NEW
- Kennedy's wife held his head in her lap after he was shot

- Lincoln was shot on a Friday
- Kennedy was shot on a Friday

- Lincoln was shot in a theatre named Ford
- Kennedy was shot in a car made by Ford

- Kennedy was shot in a car named Lincoln

- Lincoln's bodyguard was away from his post at the door of the President's box at the theatre
- Kennedy's bodyguards were away from their posts on the running-boards of the President's car

- Lincoln was shot in a theatre and his assassin ran to a warehouse
- JFK was shot from a warehouse and his alleged assassin ran to a theatre

- Lincoln's assassin had a three-worded name, John Wilkes Booth
- Kennedy's alleged assassin had a three-worded name, Lee Harvey Oswald

- John Wilkes Booth has 15 letters
- Lee Harvey Oswald has 15 letters

- Lincoln didn't die immediately after being shot
- Kennedy didn't die immediately after being shot

- Booth was shot and killed* in police custody before going to trial
- Oswald was shot and killed in police custody before going to trial

- Andrew Johnson was a heavy drinker with crude behaviour
- Lyndon Johnson was a heavy drinker with crude behaviour

678 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:08:13pm

re: #665 AemJeff

You've never responded to the question about when/where/how the IDF hasn't concerned itself with preventing civilian casualties. You said, there have been exceptions (plural). Did you mean that the IDF has committed atrocities?

Links. Documentation.

679 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:09:17pm

re: #675 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe he's upset because we asked about his balls upthread, and he wants his balls to be Likud.

I hope t' hell that was a tongue-IN-cheek remark.

680 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:11:02pm

re: #676 AemJeff

I have a great deal of antipathy toward Sharon, and I see Likud as his handiwork. The Likun charter denies anything even resembling a Palestinian state, and is the foundation of the Settlement movement. I view them as the Israeli personification of anti-Arab bias (or worse) and I think they have something to gain from the continuance of the conflict. On the other hand Netanyahu has been making some reasonable noises lately (the choice of Lieberman notwithstanding.) So, I'll wait and see, presently.

Tell me why Sharon broke away from Likud and formed Kadima. (I know that doesn't fit in with your narrative)

681 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:11:17pm

re: #674 DEZes

LOL. I got tears, it's been a long time.

682 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:11:59pm

re: #677 Stuart Leviton

Oh, good grief. A politician as skillful as Sharon wouldn't have understood the implications of his action or the predictable consequences. Right. He was seen as a murderer by the Arabs and showed up in force less than two weeks after the commemoration of the deaths he was blamed for, and we're to believe it was just a coincidence of timing.

683 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:12:21pm

re: #681 BigPapa

LOL. I got tears, it's been a long time.

I figured after this thread we could use the giggle. ;)

684 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:13:09pm

re: #665 AemJeff

Those dates are separated by less than two weeks. The commemoration occurred on Sept 16. Sharon arrived on the twenty-eighth. He was an immediate and obvious symbol of the massacre and arrived with hundreds of armed police in a pretty obvious show of power. I think it's pretty difficult to argue there are any coincidences here.

He's passed the Turing test. I can not detect whether his intelligence is artificial.

685 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:13:19pm

re: #682 AemJeff

Oh, good grief. A politician as skillful as Sharon wouldn't have understood the implications of his action or the predictable consequences. Right. He was seen as a murderer by the Arabs and showed up in force less than two weeks after the commemoration of the deaths he was blamed for, and we're to believe it was just a coincidence of timing.

You are aware that Sharon has been brain dead for years, and people just don't give a shit about his "legacy"?

686 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:14:22pm

re: #680 Alouette

Tell me why Sharon broke away from Likud and formed Kadima. (I know that doesn't fit in with your narrative)

Of course it does, Read the damn thread. I think Kadima was a huge chance for Sharon's redemption. His stroke was a tragedy; there was nobody else in the party capable of leading it successfully. The creation of Kadima was a huge event, and an enormous lost opportunity.

687 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:16:13pm
688 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:16:43pm

re: #676 AemJeff

I have a great deal of antipathy toward Sharon, and I see Likud as his handiwork. The Likun charter denies anything even resembling a Palestinian state, and is the foundation of the Settlement movement. I view them as the Israeli personification of anti-Arab bias (or worse) and I think they have something to gain from the continuance of the conflict. On the other hand Netanyahu has been making some reasonable noises lately (the choice of Lieberman notwithstanding.) So, I'll wait and see, presently.

(seriously)

Thank you for that.

I, too, would like to see a Palestinian state, but my conditions are complex ... and unattainable in the present state of affairs. Yes, they would include some throttling back of the furthest-right in Israeli politics. They primarily lay the blame for 98% of the current state of affairs at a melange of (primarily) Arabic entities. As I see it, the Likud, per se, is not part of the core problems, though I might not agree with this-or-that action the Party takes.

689 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:16:47pm

re: #686 AemJeff

Of course it does, Read the damn thread. I think Kadima was a huge chance for Sharon's redemption. His stroke was a tragedy; there was nobody else in the party capable of leading it successfully. The creation of Kadima was a huge event, and an enormous lost opportunity.

The creation of Kadima was a chance to expose all the opportunists whose only agenda was to advance themselves.

690 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:19:43pm

re: #688 pre-Boomer Marine brat

... current state of affairs at THE FEET OF a melange of ...

PIMF

691 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:20:33pm

re: #687 buzzsawmonkey

1)
3) If you dislike the religious beliefs which undergird much of the Israeli settlement movement, you must at least equally dislike the religious beliefs which impel the Arabs to reconquer the entirety of the Land of Israel and eliminate its Jewish population--but thus far I have not seen word one from you condemning this religious intolerance on the part of the Arabs. Why do you give a pass to this brutal Islamic religious intolerance, especially since any "intolerance" on the Israeli side has to do not with the death or expulsion of the Arabs, but merely with the issue of Israeli sovereignty?

I am an equal opportunity disliker of any and all religious beliefs. The point about the charter is precisely the symmetry with Arab denial of the Israeli state. If you think I give a pass to Islamic intolerance, I'd like to know what you base that on, since I haven't mentioned it. I'm a happy atheist and I think Sharia is an atrocity.

692 ladycatnip  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:21:05pm

I'm on a flyby here - company's comin' - but Aemgeff has a -262 for only 64 comments. Boy, did I miss the party today.

693 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:21:10pm

re: #676 AemJeff

I have a great deal of antipathy toward Sharon, and I see Likud as his handiwork. The Likun [sic] charter denies anything even resembling a Palestinian state, and is the foundation of the Settlement movement. I view them as the Israeli personification of anti-Arab bias (or worse) and I think they have something to gain from the continuance of the conflict. On the other hand Netanyahu has been making some reasonable noises lately (the choice of Lieberman notwithstanding.) So, I'll wait and see, presently.

First, provide linky-poo for the "Likun[sic!] Charter"

Second, why should any Israeli party have to mention a "Palestinian state" as part of its platform? Why should the existence of Israel depend on a "Palestinian state." If 22 Arab states really cared so much about their Palestinian brethren, other than keeping them miserable and desperate in refugee camps for decades in order to breed attack dogs against Israel, they have more than enough land to create a dozen "Palestinian states."

694 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:21:36pm
695 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:22:57pm
696 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:23:12pm

re: #691 AemJeff

I am an equal opportunity disliker of any and all religious beliefs. The point about the charter is precisely the symmetry with Arab denial of the Israeli state. If you think I give a pass to Islamic intolerance, I'd like to know what you base that on, since I haven't mentioned it. I'm a happy atheist and I think Sharia is an atrocity.

Oooh, a Pat Condell equal opportunity hater of all religions! I got a thrill up my leg.

697 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:23:24pm

re: #693 Alouette

Really, are you going make noise about typos? Grow up.

698 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:25:12pm

re: #697 AemJeff

Really, are you going make noise about typos? Grow up.

You gotta link for the Likud Charter denying rights to Arabs?

699 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:26:09pm
700 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:26:12pm

re: #697 AemJeff

Really, are you going make noise about typos? Grow up.


THIS from the person that took exception to someone using bad language !
Priceless. You just can't make this shit up!

701 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:26:40pm

Yaaayy! I hit 8,000 Karma!

702 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:27:04pm

re: #700 sattv4u2

THIS from the person that took exception to someone using bad language !
Priceless. You just can't make this shit up!

And then he said fuckwad.;)

703 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:27:15pm

re: #701 Alouette

Yaaayy! I hit 8,000 Karma!

and a GREAT Karma to Post ratio !

Whoo Hooo !

704 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:27:19pm

re: #699 buzzsawmonkey

I notice that it was right after I suggested that AemJeff might "want his balls to be Likud" that he posted a reference to the "Likun charter."

My, but psychology is interesting.


The power of suggestion.

705 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:27:48pm

re: #701 Alouette

Yaaayy! I hit 8,000 Karma!

Actually you passed it. ;)

706 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:28:27pm

re: #698 Alouette

You gotta link for the Likud Charter denying rights to Arabs?

[Link: www.knesset.gov.il...]

707 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:30:10pm

Since he doesn't post meaningful links --Wiki's entry, "Likud Charter"

708 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:30:41pm

re: #707 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Since he doesn't post meaningful links --Wiki's entry, "Likud Charter"

Should've waited

709 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:31:02pm

re: #708 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Should've waited

LOL.

710 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:35:27pm

A thread is dieing.

711 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:36:48pm

re: #710 DEZes

A thread is dieing.

I'm reading the link ,,, I'm stil, trying to find where in the chater is denies rights for Arabs, as he stated

712 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:36:51pm

re: #688 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I, too, would like to see a Palestinian state, but my conditions are complex ... and unattainable in the present state of affairs. Yes, they would include some throttling back of the furthest-right in Israeli politics. They primarily lay the blame for 98% of the current state of affairs at a melange of (primarily) Arabic entities. As I see it, the Likud, per se, is not part of the core problems, though I might not agree with this-or-that action the Party takes.

For the record, to my fellow Lizards -- do NOT assume ANYTHING about the first third of that first sentence. It has about as much relevance to the (*gag*)"Two States Solution" as limp herring has to a baseball bat.

/and the metaphor is appropriate, too

713 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:37:09pm

re: #691 AemJeff

I am an equal opportunity disliker of any and all religious beliefs

So, for example, which of the Ten Commandments do you dislike?

714 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:37:54pm

re: #691 AemJeff

I am an equal opportunity disliker of any and all religious beliefs. The point about the charter is precisely the symmetry with Arab denial of the Israeli state. If you think I give a pass to Islamic intolerance, I'd like to know what you base that on, since I haven't mentioned it. I'm a happy atheist and I think Sharia is an atrocity.

Atrocity refers to an action. Perhaps you want to use the word abomination.

715 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:38:55pm

re: #711 sattv4u2

I'm reading the link ,,, I'm stil, trying to find where in the chater is denies rights for Arabs, as he stated

The direction sign is in his mind ... and the colors are real.

716 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:39:30pm

re: #713 solomonpanting

So, for example, which of the Ten Commandments do you dislike?

I have trouble with #3 ('You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.')
I mean ,, what the fuck !

OUCH , , that hurt ! ,,, sorry God

717 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:40:14pm

re: #711 sattv4u2

I'm reading the link ,,, I'm stil, trying to find where in the chater is denies rights for Arabs, as he stated


My claim:


The Likun [sic] charter denies anything even resembling a Palestinian state, and is the foundation of the Settlement movement.


Fom Wikipedia:


* The 1999 Likud charter emphasized the right of settlement in "Judea (and) Samaria" (more commonly known as the "West Bank") and Gaza,"[8] and as such, brings it into direct conflict with Palestinian claims on the same territory. Similarly, their claims of the Jordan river as the permanent eastern border to Israel and Jerusalem as "the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel," do the same.

* The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform “flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.” The chapter continued: “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.”[8]

718 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:40:36pm

re: #706 AemJeff

[Link: www.knesset.gov.il...]

I'm missing it. Please cut and paste where it denies rights to Arabs, as you stated

719 Alcove-One  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:40:38pm

Man:
Hey baby, what are you doing Saturday night?
Woman:
I'm doing a suicide bombing.
Man:
Howe about Friday night?

720 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:41:33pm

re: #719 Alcove-One

Man:
Hey baby, what are you doing Saturday night?
Woman:
I'm doing a suicide bombing.
Man:
Howe about Friday night?

ZING.

721 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:42:57pm

re: #717 AemJeff

and denying them a 'state" (when in fact they already have one,, Jordan) denies them their rights ,,, how?
How many Arabs are in the Kinesset?
How many Israelis sit on the Palistinian Authorities board? Hamas's? Hezbollahs?

722 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:43:02pm

re: #714 Stuart Leviton

Atrocity refers to an action. Perhaps you want to use the word abomination.

No, I think what I should have said would be "leads to atrocities."

723 AemJeff  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:44:46pm

It's been fun, kids. Later.

724 BignJames  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:45:34pm

Bye, son of Cog.

725 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:45:55pm

re: #724 BignJames

Bye, son of Cog.

LMAO.

726 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:46:32pm

re: #717 AemJeff

re: #721 sattv4u2

and denying them a 'state" (when in fact they already have one,, Jordan) denies them their rights ,,, how?
How many Arabs are in the Kinesset?
How many Israelis sit on the Palistinian Authorities board? Hamas's? Hezbollahs?

From where do the Palestinians derive this "right" to have a state on sovreign (Israeli) land?

727 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:47:11pm

re: #717 AemJeff

Reply to sattv4u2
My Claim:
From Wikipedia:

That's getting a grip on how we do it here.
Well done.

728 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:47:39pm

I have to hand it to him. He can walk with his tail between his legs as well as any lizard i've ever seen this side of Cog

729 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:47:53pm

re: #727 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That's getting a grip on how we do it here.
Well done.

And the smack down comes to a close.

730 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:49:38pm

Crap. I just came back from an extended glue huffing bing hoping there would be a bunch of links to review and further debate.

Now I'll just have to go mow the lawn.

731 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:49:42pm

re: #729 DEZes

And the smack down comes to a close.

No. He deserved the affirmation.

732 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:50:23pm

re: #731 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No. He deserved the affirmation.

Agreed.

733 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:50:42pm

re: #731 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No. He deserved the affirmation.

Oh and he left.

734 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:51:58pm
735 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:52:49pm

re: #733 DEZes

Oh and he left.

He's not logged out.

736 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:54:36pm

re: #735 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He's not logged out.

He said its been fun and left the thread, He maybe lurking.
I know I am over it.

737 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:55:15pm

re: #734 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's not this ... not yet.

Holy water

738 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:55:26pm

re: #713 solomonpanting

So, for example, which of the Ten Commandments do you dislike?

I reject the Ten Commandments. Then again Yvonne De Carlo, Charlton Heston and Edward G. Robinson were pretty good.

739 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 3:58:44pm

re: #738 Stuart Leviton

I reject the Ten Commandments. Then again Yvonne De Carlo, Charlton Heston and Edward G. Robinson were pretty good.


when you think about it,,, E.G as a Pharoa!

"Bring me your messiah ,,,see. got to ride this streetcar to the end of the line, and it's a one-way trip and the last stop is the cemetery, see.”

740 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 4:01:24pm

re: #737 DEZes

Holy water

ROFLMAO!
(coming back in from a "water episode of my own")

741 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 4:02:09pm

re: #740 pre-Boomer Marine brat

ROFLMAO!
(coming back in from a "water episode of my own")

Well piss. ;)

742 Alouette  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 4:05:02pm

re: #723 AemJeff

It's been fun, kids. Later.

That is a piss poor weak flounce.

743 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 4:06:45pm

re: #742 Alouette

That is a piss poor weak flounce.

Wasn't a flounce at all.
He settled down at the end.
Started talking straight opinion, rather than putting it out as "fact".

744 DEZes  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 4:08:34pm

re: #743 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Wasn't a flounce at all.
He settled down at the end.
Started talking straight opinion, rather than putting it out as "fact".

He may be a good Lizard, just needs some work.

745 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 4:13:34pm

re: #744 DEZes

He may be a good Lizard, just needs some work.

Could very well be.
Thanos had positive words way upstairs (which I kept in mind all thru it)

746 Age Of Freedom  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 4:50:16pm

Retch.

747 zombie  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 5:06:18pm

re: #275 amir

As much as I like "zombie" I think s/he's way off on her point #201. Lebanese, Palestinians, Christian and Moslems are heterogeneous- I believe. They are probably a mixture of Minoans, crusaders, Arabs whatever.

I'm not way off. Read the wikipedia entry for Lebanese people for starters:

"The Lebanese have traditionally spoken only languages of the Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic family throughout their history, starting with Phoenician, a Canaanite language most closely related to Hebrew and spoken by the earliest known inhabitants of what is today Lebanon; the Phoenicians. Phoenicia would see its land and people pass through several waves of foreign rulers, at least two of which would radically transform the cultural, linguistic and religious landscape of the country, as well as the identity of the people; Aramization, and centuries later, Arabization.
...
In recent years efforts have been made by various genetic researchers, both based in Lebanon and abroad, to identify the ancestral origins of the Lebanese people, their relationship to each other, and to other neighbouring and distant human populations. Like most DNA studies attempting to identify the origins of a given human population, and any migration patterns in or out of the region which may have influenced their genetic make-up, these studies have focused on two segments of the human genome, the Y chromosome (inherited only by males and passed only by fathers) and mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA, which passes only from mother to child). Both segments are unaffected by recombination, thus they provide an indicator of paternal and maternal origins, respectively.
Results of research yielded so far appear to coincide with the history of Lebanon, corroborating that, naturally, the Lebanese trace descent from the region's earliest known inhabitants, the Phoenicians, regardless of their membership to any of Lebanon's different religious communities today. "The genetic marker which identifies descendants of the ancient Levantines is found among members of all of Lebanon's religious communities"[9] as well as some Syrians and Palestinians. By identifying the ancient type of DNA attributed to the Phoenicians, geneticist Pierre Zalloua was also able to chart their spread out of the eastern Mediterranean. These markers were found in unusually high proportions in non-Lebanese samples from other parts of the "Mediterranean coast where the Phoenicians are known to have established colonies, such as Carthage in today's Tunisia." [10] The markers were also found among samples of Maltese and Spaniards, where the Phoenicians were also known to have established colonies.
...
It was during a broader survey of Middle Eastern populations conducted for the Genographic Project of the National Geographic Society that the findings were stumbled upon. "We noticed some interesting lineages in the dataset. Among Lebanese Christians, in particular, we found higher frequency [2%] of a genetic marker — R1b — that we typically see only in Western Europe." [12] The lineage was seen at that "higher" frequency only in the Christian populations in Lebanon, even though among the Muslims it was not altogether absent..... On the other hand, in the Lebanese Muslim population a similar pattern, this time associated with genetic markers from Arabia, was also observed in "higher" preferential frequencies, although they too were not altogether absent in the Christian population. "We found that a lineage that is very common in the Arabian Peninsula — Hg J*— is found in slightly higher frequencies preferentially in the Muslim population."


...etc.

A lot of mixing going on, but what I said about lineages has been backed up by research.

748 desertbrat  Sun, Jun 7, 2009 11:26:20pm

#691 AemJeff
"If you think I give a pass to Islamic intolerance, I'd like to know
what you base that on, since I haven't mentioned it."


Um...it's based on the fact that you "haven't mentioned it"

749 amir  Mon, Jun 8, 2009 12:23:21pm

re: #747 zombie

I stand partially corrected. I'll just pick a few quotes from your wikipedia extract to back myself. Emphasis added.

"Results of research yielded so far appear to coincide with the history of Lebanon, corroborating that, naturally, the Lebanese trace descent from the region's earliest known inhabitants, the Phoenicians, regardless of their membership to any of Lebanon's different religious communities today."

" Among Lebanese Christians, in particular, we found higher frequency [2%] of a genetic marker — R1b — that we typically see only in Western Europe." [12] The lineage was seen at that "higher" frequency only in the Christian populations in Lebanon, even though among the Muslims it was not altogether absent"

"We found that a lineage that is very common in the Arabian Peninsula — Hg J*— is found in slightly higher frequencies preferentially in the Muslim population." (only slightly higher frequencies)

So what you said is true - you are not way off. But, if a marker like Hg J is more frequent among Muslims than Christians it only means that slightly more Muslims are likely to have some ancestors from Arabia than Christians. It does not mean that the Muslims are descendants of Arabians or that Christians are descendants of Phoenicians. For example if during the Arab conquests the Arabs killed the entire population of a village and then inhabited that space, the people living there would be descendants of Arabs. But this not likely what happened. More likely, the Arabs conquered the village, killed many of the men, reproduced with many of the women and enslaved whoever was left (I haven't actually studied this or researched, I'm using my own common sense) then the new population would be a genetic mix with a slightly higher prevalence of the HgJ gene. That would explain why Lebanese trace descent from the Phoenicians regardless of their membership to any of Lebanon's different religious communities and still have a slightly higher prevalence of the HgJ gene among Muslims.

I still think therefore, that this statement of yours: "those modern descendants of aboriginal Lebanese are genrally Christian; the Arabs are generally Muslim" is wrong for the reasons I gave.
BTW, I assume Muslim refers to Sunnis. Shiites are probably a different story.
The girls in the picture probably represent the 2% of Christians with the R1b gene.

750 zombie  Tue, Jun 9, 2009 11:27:01am

re: #749 amir

I guess I overstated my claim, and you overstated your counter-claim. Let's meet in the middle and call it a tie. Let's just say that Lebanese Christians are somewhat more descended from Phoenicians and Lebanese Muslims are somewhat more descended from Arabs. Like you said, with two populations living in the same space for centuries and centuries, there will always be extensive interbreeding, and after a while populations share a lot of genes. (Brazil being the best example, with Europeans, Africans and native Indian tribes blending together so much over the centuries that just about everybody in the country is mixed race to varying degrees.)

I based my impression on that National Geographic documentary (which I saw), which seems to make a much stronger claim (when viewed) for the direct descendence of certain Lebanese from the Phoenicians/Minoans.

751 amir  Tue, Jun 9, 2009 11:34:57am

re: #750 zombie

agree

752 allan5oh  Tue, Jun 9, 2009 11:20:51pm

"suicide bomber seeking long term relationship"


Sorry, just absolutely had to...


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