Ouch!

Self-discrediting alert!

Wow. And all this time, it turns out that Christianity is really all about revenge. Who knew?

Ignorant slime.

Hoisted with their own petard!

Besides, that sign makes no sense.

"He died the same way he lived." -- What? --

He continued to live while being shot by a madman every day?
He died while performing an abortion?
He was aborted?

None of makes any sense -- even if they had a valid point to make, which they don't.

Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?

well they're asking for it............

Sow :Promote murder.....

Reap: ___________________.....(not my call)

re: #5 gman

Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?

Do unto others, before they do unto you?
///

re: #2 SixDegrees

Wow. And all this time, it turns out that Christianity hypocracy is really all about revenge. Who knew?

Ignorant slime.

Twisting scripture to fit an agenda is not Christian.

re: #7 DEZes

Do unto others, before they do unto you?
///

It's still there, Golden as ever.

The New Revised Edition of the Bible:

Matthew 5:39

"But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek -- kick his ass all the way from here to Kalamazoo!"

Just so everybody is clear on the verse referenced:

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

re: #6 IslandLibertarian

well they're asking for it............

Sow :Promote murder.....

Reap: ___________________.....(not my call)

Their hatred will only beget more hatred. It's just that simple.

Good God. If a sign like that can stay up in Wichita without hundreds of angry protesters surrounding the place and demanding that they take it down, then Wichita is one place that I shall never, ever visit. And if the state of Kansas and the federal government don't immediately revoke that church's status as a tax-exempt organization, and start a criminal investigation into whether they're inciting people to violence, then there's something wrong with them.

Way OT -

Hackers claim to own T-Mobile. No comment from T-Mobile thus far.

He died the same way he lived, all right-- hated and hunted by the Religious Reich.

re: #8 IslandLibertarian

Twisting scripture to fit an agenda is not Christian.

I presume that it is not Islamic, as well?

This is the Spirit One Christian Center in Wichita. They have a big "pro-life" operation, including the usual horror show of graphic images (not on front page).

Spirit One Christian Center -- run by a Pator Mark Holick.

They've been in the news before:

Pastor: Electing Obama was a sin

Also a sign that read:

America we have a Muslim president, this is a sin against the lord! Ex. 20:3

Looks like the sign on a car wash.

What happened to love the person, hate the act?

Is The Washington Post Anti-Semitic?

OK Everyone -

The BIG TEN have a REAL PROBLEM - Not with Killing per se, the Problem is with MURDER. Dr. Tiller was MURDERED. Draw conclusions from that. 'Nuff said?

-S-

re: #5 gman

Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?

Instead of turning, you begin murdering.

re: #18 Gus 802

Spirit One Christian Center -- run by a Pator Mark Holick.

They've been in the news before:

Pastor: Electing Obama was a sin

Also a sign that read:

Just to sway over to the political side of this for a moment: welcome the new public face of the Republican Party for the next several election cycles. This is exactly what Charles has rightly been railing about for the last several months: tolerating such bastards within the party tars the entire party with their seepage. We are doomed.

The air behind the sign looks a little hazy. Sulfur, no doubt.

The concept is he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. For this reason, and by this logic, his killer should face the same fate. Christianity entails a belief in respect for the law, and as such, murder is murder, it is no where in the Bible the right to take the law into one's own hands.

re: #24 SixDegrees

Just to sway over to the political side of this for a moment: welcome the new public face of the Republican Party for the next several election cycles. This is exactly what Charles has rightly been railing about for the last several months: tolerating such bastards within the party tars the entire party with their seepage. We are doomed.

Sweet 16. 2016, that is.

re: #22 Dr. Shalit

I got their point, stupid as it is - Dr. Tiller "murdered" while he lived, he was murdered, thus he died while he lived. This means, of course, they acknowledge he was murdered rather than "righteously had his life ended". Wonder if they thought about that in their quest to have a dumb slogan on their board. I'd bet not.

re: #20 ArmyWife

What happened to love the person, hate the act?

It swirled down the drain just after the whole "thou shalt not judge" thing, and most of the Beatitudes.

Religious right for the win!

re: #28 ArmyWife

I got their point, stupid as it is - Dr. Tiller "murdered" while he lived, he was murdered, thus he died while he lived. This means, of course, they acknowledge he was murdered rather than "righteously had his life ended". Wonder if they thought about that in their quest to have a dumb slogan on their board. I'd bet not.

Very generous of you, but I don't think they're as clean as that.

re: #27 haakondahl

Sweet 16. 2016, that is.

Maybe longer.

re: #29 SixDegrees

Sadly this is what gets talked about - so it can be easier to lump Christians in with lunatics. Great job, boys. You fed right into the left. Great job to you too, RNC. You are sitting on your hands while this happens rather than embracing the faithful and discrediting the crazy wing faction.

re: #28 ArmyWife

Hey friend! Hope today finds you and your family well

re: #16 haakondahl

I presume that it is not Islamic, as well?

I'm not versed in Islamic text, but am aware there are commands to "strike the neck" of infidels or something along those lines.
Mohammad was a warrior.

re: #11 freetoken

Just so everybody is clear on the verse referenced:

And G-d will take care of Himself. He doesn't need murderous nuts.

re: #28 ArmyWife

I got their point, stupid as it is - Dr. Tiller "murdered" while he lived, he was murdered, thus he died while he lived. This means, of course, they acknowledge he was murdered rather than "righteously had his life ended". Wonder if they thought about that in their quest to have a dumb slogan on their board. I'd bet not.

Army Wife -

Small grammar thing - thus he died AS he lived - Dr. Tiller was NOT my favorite fellow. He was certainly a Political Animal as well as being a Physician. Still wrong to kill him, especially in a way that might make him a "Martyr."

-S-

re: #32 SixDegrees

Maybe longer.

That may be the case. I don't see 2012 making any headway. In fact, I'm predicting further loses for 2010. Just my opinion of course.

re: #34 HoosierHoops

Hello to you! Everyone is well, back in Maryland. I am heading there tomorrow afternoon as the little one graduates from fifth grade on Tuesday! Back to the grindstone Wednesday, though. 2 more weeks and they will be down here (the girls, waiting on the Army to cooperate for Mr. Armywife). I can't wait!

re: #38 Gus 802

That may be the case. I don't see 2012 making any headway. In fact, I'm predicting further loses for 2010. Just my opinion of course.

No sunshine in sight, bumber.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Wife Quarantined in China Amid Flu Fears

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

But get this part: "He was to travel next to Australia, where he'd planned to speak on climate change and sustainable building"

What does this idiot know about climate change and sustainable building?

re: #37 Dr. Shalit

died WHILE he lived. Wow. Guess I should put the wine glass down! Or proof read or something! ;)

re: #40 DEZes

No sunshine in sight, bumber.

Yeah. Then again I'm not exactly an optimist by nature. =]

I'm just curious if the night-stick wielding Black Panther Voting Rights-violator thugs were officially discredited by the DNC? I'm sure they were but I didn't read the article. We live in the pHilly area and it was big news. Anyone know?

re: #38 Gus 802

That may be the case. I don't see 2012 making any headway. In fact, I'm predicting further loses for 2010. Just my opinion of course.

Gus802 -

For what it is worth:

1. Look at the EU European MP Election.

2. Watch Gordon Brown be GONE within a fortnight in the UK.

3. Look at the 1994 Midterms.

I CHOOSE to be optimistic - beats the hell out of Pessimism.

-S-

These giant non-denominational churches are a disturbing phenomenon of American life. They are multi-million dollar operations with superb facilities, first rate professional administrators, musicians, and media producers; and batshit crazy doctrines. It is potentially a very dangerous combination.

re: #36 jones

And G-d will take care of Himself. He doesn't need murderous nuts.

Exactly! God was mocked by the murder of Tiller.

re: #43 Gus 802

Yeah. Then again I'm not exactly an optimist by nature. =]

Optimists are more often than not disaapointed.
Pessimists, not so much. ;)

re: #41 Nevergiveup

What does this idiot know about climate change and sustainable building?

That his city can afford neither?

re: #48 DEZes

Optimists are more often than not disaapointed.
Pessimists, not so much. ;)

Indeed!

//It's going to rain.

Here's a Burger King sign with an opinion on global warming.

re: #10 zombie

works for me

re: #50 Gus 802

Indeed!

//It's going to rain.

Sure looks like it here.

re: #44 DistantThunder

I don't know. I DO know the same rules don't apply to us - nor should they. We are the party of morals, recognizing there is, in fact, a right and wrong. We aren't all "Free to be you and me" if you and me equals thug. I just wish we were able to hold our head up high and point this difference out. To start, we need to make it different again.

re: #39 ArmyWife

Hello to you! Everyone is well, back in Maryland. I am heading there tomorrow afternoon as the little one graduates from fifth grade on Tuesday! Back to the grindstone Wednesday, though. 2 more weeks and they will be down here (the girls, waiting on the Army to cooperate for Mr. Armywife). I can't wait!

Awesome! Hope you have a wonderful summer...

re: #33 ArmyWife

This is the same thing that "moderate" Islamists say about the radicals.

re: #19 HelloDare

Looks like the sign on a car wash.

Drive-through baptism?

re: #53 DEZes

Sure looks like it here.

Had some hail during a thunderstorm here earlier.

Based on the bible verse, if I were a congregant I would be suggesting that they fire-proof and earthquake-proof the building.

Some bulletproof stained glass wouldn't hurt either.

re: #58 Gus 802

Had some hail during a thunderstorm here earlier.

Where about if I may ask.

Meanwhile the terrorist has made calls to AP from his cell promising more of the same, that it's planned, etc. He also complained that he didn't have his sleep apnea meds and that the cell was too cold...

re: #60 DEZes

Where about if I may ask.

Clouds are gathering here in Hendricks County...Looks like rain/storm is going to happen.

re: #55 HoosierHoops

I am sure we will. The girls will at least! They are going to Vermont for two weeks. I'll need to sanitize them before they cross the threshold. (just kidding, they know enough to not take on their moonbat grandparents!)

re: #60 DEZes

Where about if I may ask.

Denver

re: #62 HoosierHoops

Clouds are gathering here in Hendricks County...Looks like rain/storm is going to happen.

Same in Scott, kinda gloomy, but hey, I love thunderstorms.

re: #41 Nevergiveup

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Wife Quarantined in China Amid Flu Fears

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

But get this part: "He was to travel next to Australia, where he'd planned to speak on climate change and sustainable building"

What does this idiot know about climate change and sustainable building?

I posted a Spinoff link on that. Maybe he can get the buses rolling this time around. He's got a hundred-years notice.

re: #56 TechObjectivist

I wish they would say it louder.

re: #64 Gus 802

Denver

Nice, Colorado has been on my must visit places for decades.

re: #35 IslandLibertarian

I'm not versed in Islamic text, but am aware there are commands to "strike the neck" of infidels or something along those lines.
Mohammad was a warrior.

When my friend, a devout Mormon, was killed by a fanatic asshole here in Afghanistan, devout Muslims call my friend a Martyr.

The war we are in is between the fanatic assholes and the decent.

re: #64 Gus 802

Denver

What part of the city are you in? I grew up in Aurora.

(to the thread subject) ... *GAH!*

----
Otherwise, what's been happening, gang?

OT: remember all that talk about how David Carridine might have died? Well his brother Keith is upset, but turns out it's likely to be true:

re: #71 Desert Dog

What part of the city are you in? I grew up in Aurora.

Near the Bluebird Theater, National Jewish (hospital)...

Sorry, I usually wait until the thread goes 100+ posts before going OT

BUT

I can retire and/ or die a happy man

I have made the Top 10 (and sadly bottom 10) comments before, but I have NEVER had 3 of my posts in the Top 10 AT THE SAME TIME

You LOVE me ,,,, you ALL Really REALLY Love me!

I would like to thank The Academy ,, and my agent ,,,,and all you little people that have made this possible!

re: #75 sattv4u2

Sorry, I usually wait until the thread goes 100+ posts before going OT

BUT

I can retire and/ or die a happy man

I have made the Top 10 (and sadly bottom 10) comments before, but I have NEVER had 3 of my posts in the Top 10 AT THE SAME TIME

You LOVE me ,,,, you ALL Really REALLY Love me!

I would like to thank The Academy ,, and my agent ,,,,and all you little people that have made this possible!

Send beer.

re: #68 ArmyWife

I wish they would say it louder.

True, but unfortunately Islam hasn't been sufficiently moderated by secularism.

re: #75 sattv4u2

Sorry, I usually wait until the thread goes 100+ posts before going OT

BUT

I can retire and/ or die a happy man

I have made the Top 10 (and sadly bottom 10) comments before, but I have NEVER had 3 of my posts in the Top 10 AT THE SAME TIME

You LOVE me ,,,, you ALL Really REALLY Love me!

I would like to thank The Academy ,, and my agent ,,,,and all you little people that have made this possible!

That was very brave of you!

I need a tissue. [snif]

//

re: #69 DEZes

Nice, Colorado has been on my must visit places for decades.

Best is the high country. Towards Great Sand Dunes, Million Dollar Highway -- Ouray to Silverton.

More craziness from the Spirit One gang:
Wildfires, Sodomy, & God's Word
AGAIN, CAN WE CONNECT THE DOTS?(SWF file connects from this page)

The wildfires in California as of this writing are burning in approximately 11 different places in California.

The article goes on to connect the outbreak with some nominally pro-gay legislation recently signed by Governor Schwarzeneggar.

Other choice items: Spirit One picketed Wal-Mart after the latter announced its partnership with a gay organization, their pastor has been arrested a couple of times during demonstrations, and they had a major role in the harassment of George Tiller and his clinic.

re: #80 Shiplord Kirel

Spirit One picketed Wal-Mart after the latter announced its partnership with a gay organization, their pastor has been arrested a couple of times during demonstrations, and they had a major role in the harassment of George Tiller and his clinic.

Just your main stream conservatives !

//

re: #79 Gus 802

Best is the high country. Towards Great Sand Dunes, Million Dollar Highway -- Ouray to Silverton.

I want to visit the crater before I die.

re: #24 SixDegrees

And what's more loathsome is the way the GOPs court the religious right, in spite of how incredibly ridiculous and dangerous it's become. Rather boot out the wackos, they pass out Happy Meals to shut them up, and the GOP politicians say and do just about anything to get their votes.

The New Age Falwells can fuck right off, for all I care. The party doesn't need them even a fraction as much as they need the party. If they have no politicians to help legitimize their bullshit, maybe they'll be forced to - gasp! - evolve or disappear. Either one works for me.

The GOP needs to stop rewarding bad behavior.

re: #82 DEZes

I want to visit the crater before I die.

If you can't, just dig a big hole in your yard, get on a high ladder, look down at the hole and squint.
Amazingly, it looks very similar!

re: #82 DEZes

I want to visit the crater before I die.

Where at? I've been to Crater Lake in Oregon.

re: #74 Gus 802

Near the Bluebird Theater, National Jewish (hospital)...

Cool, I know that area. My sister still lives in their. I miss that place, especially since the heat has started here in AZ already.

re: #51 HelloDare

The bottom post to that article (I tried to cut and paste it but it had too many characters) is a classic inscrutable geologic conspiracy rant. It deserves a special place somewhere.

re: #86 Desert Dog

Cool, I know that area. My sister still lives in their. I miss that place, especially since the heat has started here in AZ already.

I don't like hot weather unless there's boating nearby. Been having a rather cool spring here. Occasional showers and such. Last week was almost downright cold since they turned the heat off for the season.

re: #85 Gus 802

Where at? I've been to Crater Lake in Oregon.

This one
Image: 004-cerro_colorado2.JPG

re: #78 Gus 802

Gus802 -

Your comments cause people to THINK. Could be Dangerous - OR - as I believe you mean it to be - Thought AND Response provoking.

-S-

Wow, just wow.

re: #89 DEZes

This one
[Link: lh5.ggpht.com...]

Looks nice. I was just browsing for other images -- I think that might be in Mexico. :)

re: #92 Gus 802

Looks nice. I was just browsing for other images -- I think that might be in Mexico. :)

The pic was labeled cerro Colorado, Still I maybe thinking Arizona.
I am finding out the west has more than one huge dent.

Somebody could rearrange the letters on the sign to spell:

EDGE-HEADED: ILLEGALITY OVERWHELMS HERITAGE
HEED ILLEGALITY: DELIGHTED RAVAGE SOMEWHERE
AGGRIEVE WEARISOME. HELL HEATEDLY DELIGHTED

re: #35 IslandLibertarian

I'm not versed in Islamic text, but am aware there are commands to "strike the neck" of infidels or something along those lines.
Mohammad was a warrior.

From the Qur'an, Sura 47 (Muhammad) Verse 5:
"When you meet in battle those who have disbelieved, smite their necks; and after the slaughter fasten tight the bonds, until the war lays aside its burdens. Then either release them as a favour, or in return for ransom. That is the ordinance."

re: #93 DEZes

The pic was labeled cerro Colorado, Still I maybe thinking Arizona.
I am finding out the west has more than one huge dent.

Understood. Oddly enough the landscape does remind me of western Colorado near the Utah border. This is what I found on Crater Cerro Colorado:

[Link: www.panoramio.com...]

re: #94 gmsc

Somebody could rearrange the letters on the sign to spell:

EDGE-HEADED: ILLEGALITY OVERWHELMS HERITAGE
HEED ILLEGALITY: DELIGHTED RAVAGE SOMEWHERE
AGGRIEVE WEARISOME. HELL HEATEDLY DELIGHTED

ROEDER DELIGHTED ILLEGALITY GAVE SHAME. WHEE!

re: #83 theheat

Can the Republicans win a national election without the religious right? To me, that would be like the Democrats winning without one of its key components, say blacks or to a lesser extent labor. Unless you think the religious right would vote for a secular GOP candidate as their lesser of two evils.

From the Bible, New International Version, Galatians, Chapter 6, Verse 7:
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."

I shall add the next verse for additional clarity:
"The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

re: #96 Gus 802

Understood. Oddly enough the landscape does remind me of western Colorado near the Utah border. This is what I found on Crater Cerro Colorado:

[Link: www.panoramio.com...]

Cool, Thanks.

What anagrams can be made with those letters?

re: #99 NelsFree

From the Bible, New International Version, Galatians, Chapter 6, Verse 7:
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."

I shall add the next verse for additional clarity:
"The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

So you're interpreting Scott Roeder not as a fanatical fundamentalist antiabortion terrorist murderer, but as the arm of judgment and retribution of a righteous God?

Gag me with a fork and barf so hard I cough my colon up.

re: #102 Salamantis

So you're interpreting Scott Roeder not as a fanatical fundamentalist antiabortion terrorist murderer, but as the arm of judgment and retribution of a righteous God?

Gag me with a fork and barf so hard I cough my colon up.

Hell, I might be getting into the middle of something that's been simmering and perhaps should keep my mouth shut.

Was NelsFree interpreting that verse,or just providing it?
And could it not be interpreted to mean that committing murder (Roeder) is something that "pleases" his sinful nature and not to be tolerated?

re: #80 Shiplord Kirel

These extremist religious belief groups are just plain socially warped and SICK. Their retro circumspection's and convoluted biblical quotations used to meet their agendas are starting to replay sordid past history.
Are we headed backward into the Crusader mentality and actions, where religion, politics and the churches supersedes and attempts to take precedence over the legal laws of our nation?
This has got to stop. Who, and what Christian church, is willing to speak up and is going to make them accountable for their blasphemies?
I'm waiting.....

I have always seen myself as a Christian, with Christian values..maybe I'm more liberal than most because I see myself as an American first.
My family are Christians, some are more devoted than others but we all believe in Jesus.

If I hear any of my family say Tiller reaped what he sowed and deserved to be murdered I'll ask them who the hell are you? The man who murdered Tiller is not God. He had no right to take a LIFE.
Tiller will be Judged by God ..not by me or you.

My fellow Christians are acting no better than Muslim Terrorists who say Tiller deserved to die...the whole thing makes me sick.

I just hope no one in my family spews any of that shit to my face.
I almost lost my father in the 9/11 attacks at the World Trade Center and I will NEVER tolerate religious extremism FROM ANYBODY, I don't care who you are.
Sorry for the rant..I feel better now.

re: #103 reine.de.tout

Hell, I might be getting into the middle of something that's been simmering and perhaps should keep my mouth shut.

Was NelsFree interpreting that verse,or just providing it?
And could it not be interpreted to mean that committing murder (Roeder) is something that "pleases" his sinful nature and not to be tolerated?

Let us devoutly hope that's what he meant.

Talibornagain!

I know it has no particular relevance, but the incorrigible snob in me has trouble taking seriously any religious outfit whose sign looks like an ad for a bloody dollar store.

re: #106 Salamantis

Let us devoutly hope that's what he meant.

Well, yes, indeed, I would hope so!

Wish he'd come back and explain.

Those who profess Christianity for the purpose of promoting a murderous political agenda will never achieve a true understanding of Christ. Remember those who celebrated in the Middle-East after 9/11? These people are the mirror image. Maybe they should examine who they are and what they are not doing. It's also in Galatians -- 5:14.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

re: #109 reine.de.tout

I was going to post what he posted -- the bible verse referenced on the sign, which talks about "reaping what you sow." NOT to endorse it, of course, but just to help demystify the cryptic message.

Obviously, the murder of the doctor is disgusting. Even if you believe in God, we're on earth, and while we're here, we follow man's laws.

Maybe Galations 6:7 applies to both Tiller and Roeder? Operation Rescue/Operation Save America seems to think so (emphasis in original):

Beware! The one who murdered George Tiller became exactly what George Tiller was – a murderer.

We will not be silenced nor will we stop opposing the murder of “any” person - born or unborn.

Note that the principle, reworded as "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword" (Matt 26:52), does not state that the dying-by-the-sword will be delivered by the righteous - or that such an end necessarily constitutes some form of divine punishment.

Of course, like any other principle there are statistical outliers. Yasser Arafat didn't die by the sword; he died peacefully in a hospital bed.

On another note...OR/OSA and Operation Rescue are two separate organizations. (I was unaware of this when I first started blogging this topic.) One splintered off from the other; which is the splinter group seems to be a matter of dispute. The latter is the Kansas-based organization that employs Troy Newman and Cheryl Sullenger. The former is Flip Benham's group, the one that put out that graphic video LGF linked in another post.

Benham also wrote a tract titled Why We Don’t Shoot Abortionists Or Blow Up Abortion Mills. The PDF file was created on 5/19/2003, according to Document Properties. It ain't exactly the Volokh Conspiracy; the argument is a religious one (emphasis in original):

Two wrongs never make a right! Vigilantism invariably brings with it lawlessness. One never has the right to take upon himself the roles of judge, jury, and executioner.

God’s answer to the abortion holocaust in America is in the repentance of His Church, not in the extermination of an individual abortionist, or in the extermination of all abortionists. His answer is not in the destruction of a solitary clinic or the destruction of every clinic. His answer is in the changed heart of His Church.

As the heart of His Church is changed, the heart of our nation will be changed. And, as the heart of our nation is changed, our laws will reflect that change.

An atheist could secularize the thesis: a bad culture produces bad laws, thus the key to legal reform is culture reform.

Last week I called Flip Benham a "colossal PR nightmare" on my blog. (Yikes, I'm the #6 Google search result on that phrase.) Regrettably, I didn't qualify the statement - never blog when you're rushed for time. I've heard him a few times in interviews; he is not quite the Keith Olbermann of the right-to-life movement, but his personality can be overly brusque. That said, he can be quite different in print; his tract offers a pretty decent Christian perspective on vigilantism.

re: #112 Alan K. Henderson

I found this statement by Rev Chet Gallagher, Director, OSA Las Vegas, in his response to the letter supporting Scott Roeder written by Michael Bray of the Army of God, to be particularly offensive and false:

"Abortion is a Gospel issue, not a political, social or cultural issue. It is about demonic child sacrifice and the blood lust of demons."

[Link: www.operationsaveamerica.org...]

Btw: If you click on the pic that heads this post, it links to a newspaper account of Dr. Tiller's funeral.

Well, let's see - he died while worshiping G-d - so it was awfully brave of that church to say out loud that dangerous abortions are the Lord's work.

:->

Well, maybe I'm a bit confused here.

George Tiller - He Died the Same Way He Lived

Well, he died while going to church. Are they some sort of pro-choice Christian sect trying to argue that he was a good Christian?

Dang Flavia,

I should have looked at all the comments. Right before mine.

/Grrr

Can't we at least take the tax deduction away from these hate mongering houses of superstition. In fact the tax deduction should only be available to thoses religions that can prove their god is real in a court of law.

Hypothetical situation:
Imagine that there is a revolution and all abortion doctors are murdered. And then all the killers are tried and executed by the government.

Which side has the greater claim to justice?

re: #119 TheHardHat

This wouldn't be a revolution it would be a murder spree.
a revolution is against a government.
a philosophical revolution can only be fought philosophically.
a gun is not an argument ,and anyone who uses force as such isn't a revolutionary they are thugs.

Our founding fathers didn't declare their philosophical grievances and immediately attack Brittan however they responded to Brittan's use of force against them.

From an atheists stand point, the hypocrits can't seem to understand the ten commandments.

They have one that says you shouldn't use the lords name in vain. I'm guessing they didn't mean saying god dammit, they meant don't kill people or take their money in the name of god.

Killing (that is, murdering) people is covered in a separate commandment; scarcely any right-to-lifers are hypocrites regarding that commandment when it comes to the sanctity of abortionists' lives.

I've never been to a church that takes people's money - the offerings are always voluntary. The Pirates of the Potomac take my money. Reckless people who drive up my car insurance rates take my money. The ethanol craze that drives up food prices takes my money.

There is nothing inherently lurid about voluntary organizations requesting donations. Churches do it, and so do civil rights organizations, Second Life regions, and gaming clubs.

As for "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain," John Wesley has a nice commentary. I'll break his analysis down into bullet points::

- First, By hypocrisy, making profession of God's name, but not living up to that profession.

- Secondly, By covenant breaking. If we make promises to God, and perform not to the Lord our vows, we take his name in vain.

- Thirdly, By rash swearing, mentioning the name of God, or any of his attributes, in the form of an oath, without any just occasion for it, but to no purpose, or to no good purpose.

- Fourthly, By false-swearing, which some think is chiefly intended in the letter of the commandment.

- Fifthly, By using the name of God lightly and carelessly. The profanation of the form of devotion is forbidden, as well as the profanation of the forms of swearing; as also, the profanation of any of those things whereby God makes himself known.

So why does the Bible makes a big deal about names in the first place? From a Judeo-Christian perspective, a name is much more than a convenient means of distinguishing A from B; a name represents A's essence. Speaking a name in vain either uses a name to express what is not A's essence, or it rightly expresses that essence while the speaker in his/her heart does not conform to it. The philanderer who utters the word "wife" is guilty of the latter. The Pony-Tailed Guy at the Bush-Clinton-Perot Richmond debate was guilty of the former when he referred to United States citizens as "symbolically the children of the future president."

re: #65 Iron Fist

Romans 12:19

Seems pretty clear to me. I don't know what Bible these so-called "Christians" are reading out of.

If you are a fundamentalist/literalist believer, then there is plenty of justification in the Bible for heinous acts of violence and murder.

From the King James Bible:

Leviticus 20:13

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Deut. 21:18-21

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Exodus 21:22-25

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

I didn't know that George Tiller used a gun to perform abortions.

re: #121 Shane

re: #121 Shane

From an atheists stand point, the hypocrits can't seem to understand the ten commandments.

They have one that says you shouldn't use the lords name in vain. I'm guessing they didn't mean saying god dammit, they meant don't kill people or take their money in the name of god.

From an atheists standpoint, you have no basis to critisize any behaviour on moral grounds, because there is no logical basis for morality in an atheist worldview. You must look upon Tiller's murder and shrug your shoulders, as it means nothing. Words like 'hiporcrit' have no meaning, as there is no fundamental difference between truth and lies in an atheist worldview.

"Still wrong to kill him, especially in a way that might make him a "Martyr."

Not only that but to give ammo to Homeland Security and the FBI against those "right wing conservatives".

Obama and his administration are quietly working to take American's weapons away from them. Through the UN and their quest to disarm the peoples of the world. This murder is just another incident that will help them garner support (to disarm America) without even asking the legislators in Washington, in fact without any need to.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

re: #125 El Guape

re: #121 Shane

From an atheists standpoint, you have no basis to critisize any behaviour on moral grounds, because there is no logical basis for morality in an atheist worldview. You must look upon Tiller's murder and shrug your shoulders, as it means nothing. Words like 'hiporcrit' have no meaning, as there is no fundamental difference between truth and lies in an atheist worldview.

Actually, religions appropriate their ethical precepts from the same place that atheists do: from the societies and cultures in which they arise and from which they emerge.

re: #123 MPH

If you are a fundamentalist/literalist believer, then there is plenty of justification in the Bible for heinous acts of violence and murder.

The verses you listed relate to capital punishment powers delegated to the Hebrew government. Murder is killing outside due process.

re: #127 Salamantis

Actually, religions appropriate their ethical precepts from the same place that atheists do: from the societies and cultures in which they arise and from which they emerge.

And where do those societies get their ethical precepts? Depends on the precept, of course.

The idea that all humans are equally valuable is one that comes specifically from religion; the principle is implied in the OT (particularly in the episode involving King David's murder of Uriah the Hittite), and explicitly taught and demonstrated by Jesus. This bears political fruits such as legal equality, and apolitical fruits such as peer friendships between the sexes. Paul of Tarsus seems to be the inventor of international private charity via the fundraising in Greece to address the Jerusalem famine; historically, charity was what one does in one's community, not for furriners.

The reverse is true; a religion can be influenced by sources other than its founder.** Church service was influenced by the Greek theater. Catholic monasticism was influenced by trans-Indus Eastern ascetic sects. Emperor Constantine continued the pagan tradition of state religion.

(**That doesn't mean that the outside influences are necessarily compatible with the religion. State religion, for instance, was a Christian heresy; Jesus and the Apostles founded the church as a voluntary private-sector entity.)

Entire books can be written about how societies form and evolve.

Religions also appropriate ethical precepts from prior faiths that derived them from the socities and cultures in which those prior faiths emerged. For instance, the Ten Commandments depend upon the prior promulgation of many different prior sets of rules, most famous among them the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi, and the Golden Rule was common in the ancient philosophies of Greece, China and India.

re: #127 Salamantis

Actually, religions appropriate their ethical precepts from the same place that atheists do: from the societies and cultures in which they arise and from which they emerge.

I sort-of agree. All morality is based upon what is known to be good and evil. This knowledge comes from God. Therefore, I do agree that atheists and Christians get morality from the same source. I cannot agree that morality is spawned by societies. If that were the case, pre-Roe V Wade abortion was immoral, and now it is moral. At one point in the United States slavery was moral, and then all of a sudden when society changed it's mind and fought a brutal war, slavery became immoral.

If I'm reading you correctly, what you are arguing/insinuating is that there is no such thing as univeral morality. If this is correct, then you should have no qualms about FGM, the practice of sutee etc. because morals are relative to the societies in which they were spawned.

As per your extra-Biblical examples of morality, they merely prove that there is a universal morality. You don't need to read the Bible to know the difference between right and wrong.

re: #130 El Guape

Actually, religions appropriate their ethical precepts from the same place that atheists do: from the societies and cultures in which they arise and from which they emerge.

I sort-of agree. All morality is based upon what is known to be good and evil. This knowledge comes from God. Therefore, I do agree that atheists and Christians get morality from the same source. I cannot agree that morality is spawned by societies. If that were the case, pre-Roe V Wade abortion was immoral, and now it is moral. At one point in the United States slavery was moral, and then all of a sudden when society changed it's mind and fought a brutal war, slavery became immoral.

If I'm reading you correctly, what you are arguing/insinuating is that there is no such thing as univeral morality. If this is correct, then you should have no qualms about FGM, the practice of sutee etc. because morals are relative to the societies in which they were spawned.

As per your extra-Biblical examples of morality, they merely prove that there is a universal morality. You don't need to read the Bible to know the difference between right and wrong.

Moralities slightly differ between societies due to the geography and the cultural histories of specific people, but they are greatly similar due the the fact that all of these people are human beings, and are striving to solve the same existential problem - how populations of self-consciously aware yet spatiotemporally finite beings can coexist in a common geography and share scarce land and resources in ways that maximize their common liberty, prosperity, and security. Some cultures have solved these problems better than others, but they are all striving to solve the same problems. And certain prohibitions are amenable to a fairer and more equitable society; prohibitions against murder (the illegal killing of persons - self defence and war being legal killings of persons, and persons being defined as human, alive and born), theft, rape, slavery, kidnapping, and fraud (lying for the sake of gaining someone else's property under false pretenses).

Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism are nontheistic yet ethical faiths; Hinduism and the several Paganisms are polytheistic yet ethical faiths. Thus monotheism - the belief in one and only one god - is not a necessary and essential component of a fair and just society.

I have problems with female genital mutilation if it is not freely chosen by an informed and responsible adult. And it indeed is NOT so chosen the vast majority of the time. Just like I have problems with both coerced abortion and coerced childbirth; either should be the woman's free choice. As to suttees, those were typically not freely chosen by widows, either.

And, btw; abortion was not outlawed in the US until 1830. Just like the Catholic Church did not condemn abortion before the fifth month of pregnancy until 1869.

Here is some interesting history on the shifting positions; apparently, God's Word, as communicated by human clerics, is not as immutable as has been claimed:

[Link: faculty.cua.edu...]

Here is some interesting history on the shifting positions; apparently, God's Word, as communicated by human clerics, is not as immutable as has been claimed:

I judge those clerics by the same measure I judge any Wikipedia article: consistency with source documentation. Church councils and philosophers are not God's word (unless they are accompanied with pillars of fire or burning bushes or other sorts of miraculous notarization).

The source document - the Bible - says that purposeful taking of human life for reasons other than self-defense or due-process capital punishment is evil. It does not say when life begins. God didn't tell Augustine or Pius IX or the Second Vatican Council when life begins. Common sense tells us it starts some time before birth, and science tells us that it has already started well before birth - at the very least by the time pregnancies are detected, when brain activity has already started. The unborn is genetically distinct from the mother at the moment of conception, and some say that's when life begins. Some, using Augustine's seed analogy, say that life begins when the fertilized egg is implanted into the uterine wall.

Even the most religious right-to-life organizations (like OR and OR/OSA) cite the science of fetal development to support their claims of when life begins. The religious element is the principle that life that has committed no crime must not be extinguished.

re: #132 Alan K. Henderson

I judge those clerics by the same measure I judge any Wikipedia article: consistency with source documentation. Church councils and philosophers are not God's word (unless they are accompanied with pillars of fire or burning bushes or other sorts of miraculous notarization).

And the empirical evidence for these miracles is...? (an ancient tome written largely by anonymous authors doesn't cut it).

The source document - the Bible - says that purposeful taking of human life for reasons other than self-defense or due-process capital punishment is evil. It does not say when life begins. God didn't tell Augustine or Pius IX or the Second Vatican Council when life begins. Common sense tells us it starts some time before birth, and science tells us that it has already started well before birth - at the very least by the time pregnancies are detected, when brain activity has already started. The unborn is genetically distinct from the mother at the moment of conception, and some say that's when life begins. Some, using Augustine's seed analogy, say that life begins when the fertilized egg is implanted into the uterine wall.

Murder is the illegal killing of a person. Abortion is legal, and zygotes, embryos and fetuses are alive and they are human, but they are not persons. The intermittent onset of brainwaves in a fetus don't signify the same thing that they do in a self-consciously aware person; in fact, if the kinds of brainwaves we have is the mark of personhood, it doesn't begin until siginficantly after birth:

[Link: www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov...]

And if distinct DNA were the Holy Grail, someone should explain to identical twins that either they share a single soul, or one of them is soulless. And chimeras must be lucky; since they possess multiple distinct DNAs, they must possesss multiple souls. Nope; a chemical definition of ensoulment or personhood doesn't pass the smell test.

Even the most religious right-to-life organizations (like OR and OR/OSA) cite the science of fetal development to support their claims of when life begins. The religious element is the principle that life that has committed no crime must not be extinguished.

No crime and no virtue; it's a matter of lack of capacity. No consciousness, no knowledge, no cognition, no desire, no will. Neither innocent nor guilty; nether category applies.

Since fully a third of pregnancies are miscarried (spontaneous abortion), God would have to be far and away the planet's leading abortionist, which poses the question of whether a perfect flawless God made mistakes with the original pregnancies that are Divinely rectified by the miscarriages, or whether the miscarriages themselves are Deific errors?