Welcome, LNDT buddies!

Freetoken: Hello, I'm Freetoken.

/

And my roommate is still an asshole.

Hmmm, overnight thread is up and I am about done in.

Hey there gmsc.

Hooray, late night thread!

If David Lynch directed Dirty Dancing...

(think i've posted this before, but it's appropriate...)

So WHAT is the magic elixer to restore vitality, after a major Troll whacking effort? Iceweasel could use some too. We worked very hard on the Tiller Clinic Closing thread. I need a beverage!

re: #2 freetoken

Freetoken: Hello, I'm Freetoken.

/

Isn't that a Tom Petty song?
;)

re: #5 Fenway_Nation

Hey there gmsc.

Howdy, Fenway!

Iced white wine isn't doing it, yet...

Have any lizards been to Twin Falls, ID; Austin, TX or Kansas City, MO?

re: #7 Floral Giraffe

"Mr. Beaumont: I thought I heard a stranger. We’ve got troll tonight. Strangest damn things. They’re man-made. Little damn things, smaller than my fist - but they’re new!...
I’m Stinky."

Well I am out of here. Have a good one folks.

Gus posted this on the troll thread, just busted me up laughing!
re: #550 Osama Bin Asshat

weak

Broken Hearts are for Assholes

Frank Zappa

Youtube Video

It's you.

re: #7 Floral Giraffe

So WHAT is the magic elixer to restore vitality, after a major Troll whacking effort? Iceweasel could use some too. We worked very hard on the Tiller Clinic Closing thread. I need a beverage!

I don't know about you, but in my case it will be beer.

Lovely, lovely beer... :)

re: #13 BlueCanuck

Bye, Blue!

re: #12 freetoken

"Mr. Beaumont: I thought I heard a stranger. We’ve got troll tonight. Strangest damn things. They’re man-made. Little damn things, smaller than my fist - but they’re new!...
I’m Stinky."

I'm askeered of that Mr. Stinky & his clue bat.
I has a clue, don't need two! ;)

re: #13 BlueCanuck

Well I am out of here. Have a good one folks.

G'Nite, blue!

re: #15 iceweasel

I don't know about you, but in my case it will be beer.

Lovely, lovely beer... :)

If the troll is a John Bircher, should it be Birch Beer?

Good Morning! Sorry I missed a troll whacking.

re: #11 Fenway_Nation

TAC NCO Academy at Bergstrom AFB in Austin when it was open. Many years ago.

re: #8 gmsc

Isn't that a Tom Petty song?
;)

Tom Petty ain't nothin' to me.

re: #19 Fenway_Nation

If the troll is a John Bircher, should it be Birch Beer?

How is american beer like making love in a canoe?

It's fucking close to water.

/I kid, I kid, nothing wrong with american beer. :)

re: #19 Fenway_Nation

What is Birch Beer anyway? I've never had it. Any good?

re: #23 iceweasel

You are of course referring to Coors 3.2.

American citizens now need a passport to travel to Aruba, get killed, and let the killers go free due to the incompetence of the law enforcement officials there.

/OK, that's not the actual headline, but the spirit is there

re: #24 iceweasel

I haven't had it in like 20 years, but I remember it fondly.

Before there was crystal Pepsi, there was birch beer...which is a little like a clear root beer.

re: #25 FamHistoryGuy

You are of course referring to Coors 3.2.

*shudder*

Now I'll never get to sleep. Don't frighten me like that!

re: #27 Fenway_Nation

I haven't had it in like 20 years, but I remember it fondly.

Before there was crystal Pepsi, there was birch beer...which is a little like a clear root beer.

Oh! I think I remember that stuff! I love root beer.

re: #21 FamHistoryGuy

Based on your experience, how would it rate for a place to live?

I understand Austin's kinda like the San Francisco of Texas (altho' Air America couldn't last in that market either).

re: #15 iceweasel

I don't know about you, but in my case it will be beer.

Lovely, lovely beer... :)

You have earned, as much neer as you choose to imbibe!
*salute*

Ah, Eraserhead. I used to so love that movie! And the line quoted above was one of my favorite lines, too.

re: #26 gmsc

I'm reading "the next 100 years" by George Friedman. It makes me think of your histories. Have you looked at it?

re: #33 Floral Giraffe

I'm reading "the next 100 years" by George Friedman. It makes me think of your histories. Have you looked at it?

Nope. New book?

re: #32 zombie

Hi Zombie!
Hope all is well, in zombieland?

re: #33 Floral Giraffe

What do you think of the book?

re: #34 gmsc

Yup, 2009. It popped up on Amazon, when I was looking at the Sowell books. Sounded interesting, and 75 pages in, it is!

re: #28 iceweasel

That was all they let us have at the Airmen's club in Denver when I went to tech school. The Schlitz in the rusty cans in Nam was better.

re: #37 Floral Giraffe

Yup, 2009. It popped up on Amazon, when I was looking at the Sowell books. Sounded interesting, and 75 pages in, it is!

Looks interesting . . .

You must mean this book?

BTW, you might not know this, but if you put an Amazon link here and someone clicks on it, then LGF gets a referral credit at Amazon.

Also, in the spin-offs there is a "book" category.

re: #30 Fenway_Nation

Not too bad. A little more wintry than I like. Been too many years since I was there to make a good recommendation. Been in Houston too long.

re: #30 Fenway_Nation

Based on your experience, how would it rate for a place to live?

I understand Austin's kinda like the San Francisco of Texas (altho' Air America couldn't last in that market either).

I haven't lived in Austin but the impression I have of it based on a couple of friends who moved there is that it is pretty cool. The SF of texas isn't a bad description. It's home to the SXSW (south by southwest) festival for music and film every year which looks more amazing all the time:

[Link: sxsw.com...]

And yeah, Air America couldn't survive there but that says more about Air America than anything else...

Welp, I'm finished with Finals! Gonna be a nice week or two before summer session starts.

My buddies and I just booked a hotel in KC and STL for our trip. Just have Chicago left to book, and that's it.

I plan to get a picture of myself wearing my NOBAMA shirt in front of the Sears Tower ;)

re: #36 freetoken

What do you think of the book?

It reminds me of Mark Steyn's population predictions, but with a more political & practical bent. It's forecasting, based on historical models. It's easy to read, well written, but I have to slow down & think about the implications. 'Course we'll be long dead, but it does matter for our kids & their kids. I think it'll have to be read more than once to sink in. I like that kind of book.

My FAVORITE recent read is William Forstchen's "One Second After". I've read it twice so far, and looking forward to reading it again.
I'm an Evalyn Wood reader, from before high school, very fast & high comprehension, and it's very RARE for me to want to read a book more than once. It's a GREAT READ!

re: #43 TheMatrix31

I plan to get a picture of myself wearing my NOBAMA shirt in front of the Sears Tower ;)

In Chicago?!? We'll miss you.

Noticed that on the HotAir thread about Gaffney's brush with 'nirtherism that there are still people over there trying to prove that President Obama is not legitimate, he's a Muslim, etc.

I predict that it will continue indefinitely, especially since WND keeps upping the heat with more and more 'nirther stories.

There are many ways to make $$$ in this country...

re: #42 iceweasel

This is the Air America I am familiar with. 120 hours passenger time flying to and from work.

The Iraqis are going to cut loose a Shiite terrorist accused of killing 5 GIs.

There are no words for this unmitigated bullshit.

re: #45 gmsc

In Chicago?!? We'll miss you.

Yeah, it's quite the plan lol. I'll wear something else, switch the shirt, and take the pic. Not brave enough to wear it the entire day!

re: #47 FamHistoryGuy

Wow, amazing. Thanks for the link, I will read up on this. I salute you, sir--and your taste in beer!

To kick off tonight's thread, I'm going to re-post a comment I made at zomblog in a discussion over whether homosexuality was "unnatural". What's your opinion?:

---

It all comes down to what one’s definition of “natural” is. If one pauses to think about it, about 95% of what we do on a daily basis is “unnatural” in that we wouldn’t do it in nature and that our early ancestors never did it. Wearing clothes is unnatural; sitting in chairs is unnatural; cutting hair and shaving is unnatural; eating cooked food is unnatural; trimming our toenails is unnatural; using contraception is unnatural; all medical advances are unnatural; etc. etc. The list is endless. The problem comes with the unnecessary stigma associated with the word “unnatural,” which is the root of the argument here. You are using it in a neutral way, meaning anything that does not occur in primitive nature; others use the term to mean something which is morally repugnant to them. Hence, the argument is going in circles, because people are arguing about two different meanings of the same word.

The transsexual author “Joan Roughgarden” wrote an entire book called “Evolution’s Rainbow” detailing all the homosexual activity and behavior that goes on in the animal kingdom, in an effort to prove that homosexuality is “natural.” And while she did collect an admirable assemblage of examples, in the end she ended up undermining her own case, because although she highlighted hundreds of species which occasionally exhibit homosexual-type behavior, that isn’t nearly as impressive as it may sound at first, because there are millions upon millions of species on the earth. And if she can only dig up a few hundred that sometimes exhibit homosexuality, that means that 99.99% of species don’t ever exhibit homosexuality. So she kind of ended up proving the exact opposite of what she wanted to prove. Furthermore, many of the examples are not of actual homosexual sexual penetrations, but rather of behaviors that we in our cultural view consider “gay,” such as male penguins brooding on eggs, male seahorses carrying the egg sacs in their mouths, pairs of male birds doing mating rituals or raising chicks, etc. None of these species actually engage in homosexual sex, and it’s just a ridiculous bias on our part to think that such behaviors count as “gay.”

One could easily compile a similar book of examples of animals which eat their young, of which there are probably thousands of examples; or animals which kill their sexual partners after mating; or animals which eat shit. And so on. The animal kingdom has an insane amount of variation in it, and one can always find numerous examples of practically any kind of behavior. And thus, that behavior could be called “natural.” But being “natural” doesn’t mean it is commonplace. If there were categories of humans who liked to kill their own children, or who liked to eat shit, they could also point to the animal kingdom and rightfully claim that their behavior is “natural,” due to all the other species which do the same thing. Conversely, there could be encampments of cultural anarchists who refuse to cut their hair, shave, wear clothes, or eat cooked food, and they could rightfully claim that all the “civilized” behavior that the rest of us do is totally “unnatural.”

Hence, what I’m trying to say is: the “unnatural” debate is meaningless. On one hand, most of what we do is technically unnatural (in the original sense). On the other hand, if there are people who find certain activities morally distasteful, then we have neither the ability nor the right to compel them to think differently. Freedom of thought is the fundamental right underlying freedom of speech. I personally don’t care in the slightest what people do in their bedrooms, but if other people are repulsed, then there’s nothing I can or should do about that either.

re: #46 freetoken

Noticed that on the HotAir thread about Gaffney's brush with 'nirtherism that there are still people over there trying to prove that President Obama is not legitimate, he's a Muslim, etc.

I predict that it will continue indefinitely, especially since WND keeps upping the heat with more and more 'nirther stories.

There are many ways to make $$$ in this country...

Well people on the left still think that Bush stole the 2000 election (and in some cases they think the 2004 election as well). I'm sure people will believe that in 2100 as well.

re: #44 Floral Giraffe

Too bad I don't read books anymore...

I will gladly pimp books through Amazon here, though, if that helps Charles keeps the lights on.

Maybe you could write a nice one two paragraph precise of Friedman's book so we can get the gist?

I followed that up with this comment:

---

...my comment above — about the meaning of the word “unnatural” and how homosexuality may indeed be “unnatural” but only to the same degree as just about every other behavior modern humans exhibit. The only things we do that are truly “natural” are:

Sucking on mommy’s tit when we’re babies;
Drinking water from a stream when we’re thirsty;
Eating carrion or some berries when we’re hungry;
Copulating shamelessly as soon as the hormones kick in;
Giving birth to the next generation;
…and the cycle begins again.

Everything beyond that is unnatural. Including and especially sitting in front of a glowing screen typing all day!

Additionally, to the extent that homosexuality is merely just another “paraphilia,” i.e. fetish for something “not normal,” then one could just as reasonably state that much of heterosexual attitudes and attractions are equally paraphiliac, equally “unnatural.” High-heel shoes, Victoria’s Secret bras, hetero oral sex, cosplay outfits, girls-in-uniforms, silicon boobs, all of it — it’s all totally unnatural. Anything beyond the urge to mate with big-hipped naked adolescent girls is not natural. All of modern culture is one vast paraphilia, and homosexuality is just one of them. And, to me at least, not morally distinct in any way.

re: #53 freetoken

Too bad I don't read books anymore...

I will gladly pimp books through Amazon here, though, if that helps Charles keeps the lights on.

Maybe you could write a nice one two paragraph precise of Friedman's book so we can get the gist?

Please...how do you think the hamsters could afford that new KIA Soul?

re: #51 zombie

Zombie, I read both of your posts and there's a lot to respond to. I'd say that I agree with your overall point vis-a-vis the natural/unnatural debate and its irrelevance to the debate over homosexuality. I take some issue with some of the way you argue towards that conclusion, but that's mostly irrelevant.

My only really substantive criticism at this point is one which doesnt affect your conclusion, and that's this:

So she kind of ended up proving the exact opposite of what she wanted to prove. Furthermore, many of the examples are not of actual homosexual sexual penetrations

It's a mistake to identify homosexuality with "homosexual sexual penetration", because doing so ignores all gay women (and homosexual activity amongst females of other species), for whom sexuality is not defined by penetration.

Again though, this is just a first fast response. Hope it's useful.

re: #54 zombie

Sucking on mommy’s tit when we’re babies;

Copulating shamelessly as soon as the hormones

silicon boobs

Boob thread!

/you know... this is all the motivation I need to start posting videos...

re: #57 freetoken

Boob thread!

/you know... this is all the motivation I need to start posting videos...

What kind of bees give milk?

re: #33 Floral Giraffe

I'm reading "the next 100 years" by George Friedman. It makes me think of your histories. Have you looked at it?

Less than 1 minute to history!

Today in History, June 10th:

Highlights of this day in history: The Six-Day War ends in the Mideast; Yugoslav troops leave Kosovo after NATO's campaign of airstrikes; Alcoholics Anonymous founded; Actress and singer Judy Garland born; Singer Ray Charles dies.

Other notable June 10th events include:

1770 – Captain James Cook runs aground on the Great Barrier Reef.

1829 – The first Boat Race between the University of Oxford and the University of Cambridge takes place.

1973 – John Paul Getty III, grandson of billionaire J. Paul Getty, is kidnapped in Rome, Italy.

1977 – James Earl Ray escapes from Brushy Mountain State Prison in Petros, Tennessee, but is recaptured on June 13.

1977 – Apple Computer ships its first Apple II personal computer.

re: #58 gmsc

[Homer sees a swarm of bees around his pile of stolen sugar]

Homer: Aah! Hey, get off my sugar. Bad bees! Bad! Ow. Oww! Oh, they're defending themselves somehow!

Oops - hit "post this comment" instead of "preview"!

Today in History, June 10th:

Highlights of this day in history: The Six-Day War ends in the Mideast; Yugoslav troops leave Kosovo after NATO's campaign of airstrikes; Alcoholics Anonymous founded; Actress and singer Judy Garland born; Singer Ray Charles dies.

Other notable June 10th events include:

1770 – Captain James Cook runs aground on the Great Barrier Reef.

1829 – The first Boat Race between the University of Oxford and the University of Cambridge takes place.

1973 – John Paul Getty III, grandson of billionaire J. Paul Getty, is kidnapped in Rome, Italy.

1977 – James Earl Ray escapes from Brushy Mountain State Prison in Petros, Tennessee, but is recaptured on June 13.

1977 – Apple Computer ships its first Apple II personal computer.

re: #60 gmsc

Charles, please delete #60!

re: #58 gmsc

What kind of bees give milk?

Hmmm... I give... what kind of bees give milk?

re: #56 iceweasel

My only really substantive criticism at this point is one which doesnt affect your conclusion, and that's this:

It's a mistake to identify homosexuality with "homosexual sexual penetration", because doing so ignores all gay women (and homosexual activity amongst females of other species), for whom sexuality is not defined by penetration.

Again though, this is just a first fast response. Hope it's useful.

Good point. However. from my quick reading of the Roughgarden book, about 99% of the examples she gives are male-male animal homosexuality. For some reason, animal lesbianism is practically unknown, much much rarer than male-male relationships.

When I originally typed that sentence, I didn't mean to focus on "penetration," just trying to point out that many of the supposedly "gay" species weren't even having sex.

re: #50 iceweasel

An interesting time for a young man then. Not near as interesting now.

These days make me nostalgic for when I grew up on USSR ICBM targets.

re: #65 freetoken

Hmmm... I give... what kind of bees give milk?

Boo bees!

My disjointed 2 AM thoughts -

I think when people are saying "unnatural" they really mean "deviant", as in deviant from what is theoretically healthy for the species. Homosexuality doesn't help evolution along in any way, does it? So to me a homosexual person is technically a deviant from the overall reproductive design of the species.***

I don't morally object to that per se, though, because deviance is natural - in fact it's part of the system. Sometimes deviance can be a horrible thing, like in the case of serial killers, or a homosexual necrophiliac rapist duck, or an animal (or human) that kills its own young. Other times it's just a kink, or utterly harmless. Or, as David Carridine found out, it can be... not-so-harmless.

From my POV I suppose I accept deviance as normal ("natural") in the broadly and judge it only individually, with context. A guy who pleasures himself to pictures of horses alone in his mom's basement is just a perv; a guy who breaks into somebody's farm and molests the animals is a different story. Context and results.

Whoops, was going to footnote something (hence the asterisks) but forgot what exactly. Oh well, time for bed.

re: #57 freetoken

Boob thread!

/you know... this is all the motivation I need to start posting videos...

On another topic completely, I'm enjoying my first day using Safari 4 today!

re: #68 gmsc

Boo bees!

ooohhh...

You mean like these?

re: #73 freetoken

ooohhh...

You mean like these?

Yes, but if they're going to be in a bra, it should be properly fitted.

re: #72 gmsc

On another topic completely, I'm enjoying my first day using Safari 4 today!

Besides the well-promoted features, there are some great little easter egg.

For example, if you click and hold on a tab, and drag it anywhere in the toolbar, it leaves the tab rack, but still appears as a tab. When you drag it down into the window, however, it becomes a live miniature image of its web page. If you let it go, it sizes up to become a new window!

Not having a good night.

Had to write the following email:

I have been listening to this show since 1996. It was Coast to Coast AM that inspired me to pursue my career in radio, and I am a successful radio engineer employed full-time with a group of over 42 stations, AM and FM.

I am informing you that I have listened to my last show, and supported the very last sponsor of the show. No more.

Tonight's program was more than a forum-- it was a high-exposure platform for the 9/11 "truth" movement. I listened for over an hour as "researcher" Richard Gage had ample time to present un-challenged, the already-unproven claims of "controlled demolitions" at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.

While I am quite aware of the "anything goes" nature of the topics and content of the program in regards to conspiracies,

This is also a topic that hits home as I lost loved ones on that day, due to, after my own careful interpretation of the FACTS, an attack on this country by Jihadi extremists.

This is not a political rant; it is simply a listener who does not have the stomach to suffer foolishness and complete dis-engagement of thought.

I do miss the days of mystery and awe of the program, when Art could skillfully wave his way through a dark night and leave us all on the edge of our seats and beds, hanging on his every word and wondering what would happen next. Instead, now, the producers and hosts seem to seek out any yahoo with a website or a book, and proceed with generic milquetoast generic interviewing night after night. Still, I continued listening for those great moments of entertainment or revelation... but no more.

I am finished. I will be encouraging my friends to stop listening as well.

Goodbye to you all and good luck to you all in your careers.

Greatly disappointed,

"Steve," a sad former listener and former supporter of your advertisers.

I'm about to hit send.

This was copied to the national sales and programming/ syndication departments at Premire Radio Networks.

The show has gone downhill anyhow, but tonight they hit my last nerve.

re: #51 zombie

that post is just *so* gay...

/white smoke

re: #76 astronmr20

Not having a good night.

Had to write the following email:

I have been listening to this show since 1996. It was Coast to Coast AM that inspired me to pursue my career in radio, and I am a successful radio engineer employed full-time with a group of over 42 stations, AM and FM.

I'm about to hit send.

This was copied to the national sales and programming/ syndication departments at Premire Radio Networks.

The show has gone downhill anyhow, but tonight they hit my last nerve.

Before you hit send, you might want to change "unproven" to "disproven".

re: #78 gmsc

Before you hit send, you might want to change "unproven" to "disproven".

Done.

re: #74 gmsc

Yes, but if they're going to be in a bra, it should be properly fitted.

tit's the least they could do...

re: #66 zombie

Good point. However. from my quick reading of the Roughgarden book, about 99% of the examples she gives are male-male animal homosexuality. For some reason, animal lesbianism is practically unknown, much much rarer than male-male relationships.

When I originally typed that sentence, I didn't mean to focus on "penetration," just trying to point out that many of the supposedly "gay" species weren't even having sex.

Oh, I totally understood you, and moreover i don't doubt for one second your assessment of the Roughgarden book--that the examples she gives focus on male homosexuality.

In point of fact, though, lesbianism is not unknown in the animal kingdom by any means; the problem is the one you've idenitified: reasearchers have failed to identify sexual behaviour between females as 'sexual' precisely because it didn't look sexual to them-- it didn't involve penetration

For example, bonobos engage in a practice called genito-genital rubbing, in which a female

"wraps her legs around another female, rubbing her own clitoris against another's while emitting screams of enjoyment"

This has been described by (male) observers as:

'greeting' behaviour, or 'appeasement' behaviour, or 'reassurance' behaviour, or 'reconciliation' behaviour, or 'tension-regulation' behaviour, or 'social bonding' behaviour, or 'food exchange' behaviour-- almost anything it seems, except pleasurable sexual behaviour

(italics in original)

Source: "biological exuberance: animal sexuality and natural diversity" pub in 1999, author B. bagemihl.

Elizabeth lloyd is also excellent about the role of bias in our observations of sexuality in the animal kingdom. I can dig up some refs if you like.

I'm having another drink now and going back to hoping for boob videos. ;)

re: #74 gmsc

Yes, but if they're going to be in a bra, it should be properly fitted.

Hmmm... wouldn't that defeat the purpose :-?

re: #68 gmsc

Boo bees!

I thought the answer would be Bee Cups. :(

re: #83 iceweasel

I thought the answer would be Bee Cups. :(

Q: Why does the little mermaid wear seashells?
A: Because she can't fit into B shells!

/Why seashells? Shouldn't it be an algebra?

re: #60 gmsc

Today in History, June 10th:

[Video]Highlights of this day in history: The Six-Day War ends in the Mideast; Yugoslav troops leave Kosovo after NATO's campaign of airstrikes; Alcoholics Anonymous founded; Actress and singer Judy Garland born; Singer Ray Charles dies.

Other notable June 10th events include:

1770 – Captain James Cook runs aground on the Great Barrier Reef.

1829 – The first Boat Race between the University of Oxford and the University of Cambridge takes place.

1973 – John Paul Getty III, grandson of billionaire J. Paul Getty, is kidnapped in Rome, Italy.

1977 – James Earl Ray escapes from Brushy Mountain State Prison in Petros, Tennessee, but is recaptured on June 13.

1977 – Apple Computer ships its first Apple II personal computer.

just because %-)

re: #84 gmsc

Q: Why does the little mermaid wear seashells?
A: Because she can't fit into B shells!

/Why seashells? Shouldn't it be an algebra?

there's something fishy about that answer.

BTW: tonight's status report, so far:

1 shot, 1 rat.

re: #85 redc1c4

just because %-)

?!?

re: #84 gmsc

Q: Why does the little mermaid wear seashells?
A: Because she can't fit into B shells!

/Why seashells? Shouldn't it be an algebra?

Brilliant. Never heard either of those before. This and your Today in History threads make the thread. :)

re: #89 iceweasel

Brilliant. Never heard either of those before. This and your Today in History threads make the thread. :)

Thanks.
:)

(deletable expletive auto deleted.)

What a day.

re: #91 Syrah

(deletable expletive auto deleted.)

What a day.

The lack of exclamation point in that sentence suggests you are not sincere in your statement.

Do you want to talk about it?

re: #92 gmsc

The lack of exclamation point in that sentence suggests you are not sincere in your statement.

Do you want to talk about it?

It's OK, Syrah. You don't have to.

re: #92 gmsc

The lack of exclamation point in that sentence suggests you are not sincere in your statement.

Do you want to talk about it?

I can't talk about details but I have to get one of our employees fired. The employee presents a serious liability risk to the company and its employees. Tomorrow is going to be no fun. No fun at all.

re: #81 iceweasel

For example, bonobos engage in a practice called genito-genital rubbing, in which a female

"wraps her legs around another female, rubbing her own clitoris against another's while emitting screams of enjoyment"

Bonobos, bonobos, bonobos. They are trotted out every single time as example of the "naturalness" of every single sexual behavior. Yes, we all know about bonobos, how they have incessant crazy sex for every purpose, yadda yadda yadda. But bonobos are a single extremely rare species, out of countless millions of species on the planet. The other (much more common) subspecies of chimp rape each other with alarming frequency. So that's natural too, I suppose? How about some female-female examples besides the infamous bonobos?

re: #94 Syrah

I can't talk about details but I have to get one of our employees fired. The employee presents a serious liability risk to the company and its employees. Tomorrow is going to be no fun. No fun at all.

No, it won't. However, it does sound like it's the responsible thing to do. Just be sincere and forthright, and you should be OK.

re: #96 gmsc

OK.

re: #95 zombie

Bonobos, bonobos, bonobos. They are trotted out every single time as example of the "naturalness" of every single sexual behavior.

You misunderstand me. I'm agreeing with your argument, and certainly your conclusion. I'm not trotting out the bonobos as an example of 'naturalness' at all-- i agree with you that the natural/unnatural debate doesn't have a place here.

I'll also agree with you that bonobos get used all the time in all kinds of wacky ways in these arguments.

I'm mentioning them here as an example of sexual behaviour that *historically* wasn't recognised as sexual, because it doesn't involve penetration. It's recognised as sexual now, and often exploited, as you note.

Anyway, thought you might find the bagemihl book interesting, if you want further examples of female homosexuality in the animal kingdom.

re: #23 iceweasel

How is american beer like making love in a canoe?

It's fucking close to water.

/I kid, I kid, nothing wrong with american beer. :)

I used to be a domestic beer guy. I drank Milwaukee Beast, and I liked it. Long story short, now I can't stand any of the watery effluent sold by most of the American companies, for I have found the One True Beer--Sam Adams.

I composed a ditty:

Beer doesn't come in cans
Piss comes in cans
Beer comes in bottles
Sam Adams bottles

For some reason, they didn't use it. But that's OK. Sammy is teh precious.

re: #95 zombie

The other (much more common) subspecies of chimp rape each other with alarming frequency. So that's natural too, I suppose?

Yeah, I'd agree that it's just as flawed to argue that rape is 'natural', simply because it appears in the animal kingdom. (Dolphins also engage in a behaviour that looks a lot like gang rape-- male dolphins cutting a female dolphin out of the pod, surrounding her and having sex with her. I should hope no one is going to argue that gang rape is 'natural' for that reason either.)

re: #94 Syrah

I can't talk about details but I have to get one of our employees fired. The employee presents a serious liability risk to the company and its employees. Tomorrow is going to be no fun. No fun at all.

que syrah syrah...

Good morning, everyone.

re: #99 haakondahl

I used to be a domestic beer guy. I drank Milwaukee Beast, and I liked it. Long story short, now I can't stand any of the watery effluent sold by most of the American companies, for I have found the One True Beer--Sam Adams.

I composed a ditty:

Beer doesn't come in cans
Piss comes in cans
Beer comes in bottles
Sam Adams bottles

For some reason, they didn't use it. But that's OK. Sammy is teh precious.

my favorite beer is "open"...

re: #102 BatGuano

Good morning, everyone.

bad morning...

/Borris

re: #99 haakondahl

I liked your ditty even though it didn't rhyme.

re: #95 zombie

Just to speculate aloud, . . .

I wonder if the notable rarity of animal lesbianism in species other than Bonobos would suggest that female homosexuality requires a certain cognitive ability that male animal homosexuality can manage without. The mechanics may require it.

re: #104 redc1c4

bad morning...

/Borris

Good, morning, almost everyone!

re: #101 redc1c4

que syrah syrah...

What will be, will be.

re: #107 BatGuano

Good, morning, almost everyone!

well, i know of one rat that had a *really* bad morning...

/off to see if he has company %-)

re: #99 haakondahl

I used to be a domestic beer guy. I drank Milwaukee Beast, and I liked it. Long story short, now I can't stand any of the watery effluent sold by most of the American companies, for I have found the One True Beer--Sam Adams.

I composed a ditty:

Beer doesn't come in cans
Piss comes in cans
Beer comes in bottles
Sam Adams bottles

For some reason, they didn't use it. But that's OK. Sammy is teh precious.

I really like Sam Adams. I was drinking their summer ale (?) or whatever it's called the other day--I'd forgotten how good it is.

I like your ditty. It's like a zen koan that we should all meditate upon.

re: #108 Syrah

What will be, will be.

it's all the same in the Zin...

re: #109 redc1c4

well, i know of one rat that had a *really* bad morning...

/off to see if he has company %-)

Shotguns are a blast when it comes to rodent control,

re: #110 iceweasel

I really like Sam Adams. I was drinking their summer ale (?) or whatever it's called the other day--I'd forgotten how good it is.

I like your ditty. It's like a zen koan that we should all meditate upon.

"i will drink no beer before it's open..."

re: #112 Syrah

Shotguns are a blast when it comes to rodent control,

the neighbors might notice... everyone seems to politely ignore the air rifle.

re: #99 haakondahl

Too bad the Portland, OR version of Jim McGreevey is named Sam Adams.

re: #58 gmsc

What kind of bees give milk?

Not these.

re: #113 redc1c4

"i will drink no beer before it's open..."

Words to live by!

Well, I have to go to bed now.

Good luck with your responsibilities tomorrow. Let us know how it went (as much as you can, of course).

Good night, all!

re: #98 iceweasel

I understand -- I know you're agreeing with me. I'm just tilting at the windmill of bonobosity, with which I lost patience quite some time ago!

---

When I hear the word "bonobo," that's when I reach for my devolver.

re: #118 gmsc

G'nite gmsc!

I'm not long for this thread myself...

re: #119 zombie

I understand -- I know you're agreeing with me. I'm just tilting at the windmill of bonobosity, with which I lost patience quite some time ago!

---

When I hear the word "bonobo," that's when I reach for my devolver.

Ha-- believe me, I understand and share that reaction-- in this one tiny case they're a useful example, i swear-- not because of what people claim about them now, but because of how slow they were to see that behaviour at all.

I notice that wikipedia mentions lions, hyenas, japanese macaques, and gulls as all engaging in female homosexual activity. It's wikipedia, so that has to be taken for what it's worth--they do mention the two authors you and i mentioned though, i see!
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #117 iceweasel

Words to live by!

Beer: It's the reason I get up every afternoon...

re: #119 zombie

I understand -- I know you're agreeing with me. I'm just tilting at the windmill of bonobosity, with which I lost patience quite some time ago!

---

When I hear the word "bonobo," that's when I reach for my devolver.

what do you have against bohemian north beach hobos?

re: #121 iceweasel

I notice that wikipedia mentions lions, hyenas, japanese macaques, and gulls as all engaging in female homosexual activity.

Gulls?

?!?!?!?

The day I see two female gulls engaged in some hot cloaca-on-cloaca action is the day I'll believe that claim.

second rat is likely with the first: different range fan, much closer target and poorer light so the sending tonight is not as good... mark this as a probable.

/but i wouldn't want to be him.

re: #123 redc1c4

what do you have against bohemian north beach hobos?

Most bohemian north beach hobos already look and act like bonobos, so the two species are probably one and the same. Science is still catching up in this area. We have a lot to learn about hobo genetics.

re: #124 zombie

Gulls?

?!?!?!?

The day I see two female gulls engaged in some hot cloaca-on-cloaca action is the day I'll believe that claim.

well, there's this bar in Frisco see, where they have this show...

/anything is possible there: i've seen your pictures. %-)

re: #126 zombie

Most bohemian north beach hobos already look and act like bonobos, so the two species are probably one and the same. Science is still catching up in this area. We have a lot to learn about hobo genetics.

you should read AoS more often... %-)

re: #124 zombie

Gulls?

?!?!?!?

The day I see two female gulls engaged in some hot cloaca-on-cloaca action is the day I'll believe that claim.

I have NO idea if it's true-- it's wikipedia, and this is all it says:

"Studies have shown that 10 to 15 percent of female western gulls in some populations in the wild exhibit homosexual behavior." (27)

and the footnote only refers to this:

Smith, Dinitia (February 7, 2004). "Central Park Zoo's gay penguins ignite debate". San Francisco Chronicle, reprinted from New York Times. [Link: www.sfgate.com...] Retrieved on 2007-09-10.

So, it's not like it's sourced to any sci journal or anything. Im too lazy at the moment to go look at the articles and see if they source that claim.

(gotta upding you for "hot cloaca on cloaca action"- too funny.)

re: #122 redc1c4

Beer: It's the reason I get up every afternoon...

I love when he picks up someone's bottle and yells "Newcastle!"

re: #125 redc1c4

Red, who are these rats you are hunting?

re: #129 iceweasel

Here's the documentation on gulls from the someone with impeccable credentials.

re: #132 BatGuano

Hilarious!

re: #133 zombie

The talk of lesbians and seagulls reminded me of it. I was surprised it was on youtube (but, I guess I shouldn't be surprised).

re: #134 BatGuano

The talk of lesbians and seagulls reminded me of it. I was surprised it was on youtube (but, I guess I shouldn't be surprised).

beloved batboy, before I clicked that I somehow knew what it would be. -- Not that it would be that scene from the movie, but that it would be that song. ;)

No wonder I love you. How the heck are you?

re: #135 iceweasel

Doing good. I've been following the give-and-take between you and Zombie with enjoyment. I feel like Obama at the telemprompter.

re: #131 BatGuano

Red, who are these rats you are hunting?

the four legged ones that live in the nooks and crannies of my AO...

I love a good monkey-sex thread (although I've never actually seen one). Those bonobos can be scandalous!

Beware Galactic Skid Marks.

re: #136 BatGuano

Aw, you should have joined in. I derailed things with talk of clitoral rubbing and bonobos and lesbian seagulls, really. :(

It'd be more interesting to have a debate about Zombie's real point about the utility of the natural/unnatural distinction in these debates...i agree with zombie and don't have much of value to contribute there really, I don't think.

re: #132 BatGuano

Here's the documentation on gulls from the someone with impeccable credentials.

Sex with Ducks

re: #137 redc1c4

the four legged ones that live in the nooks and crannies of my AO...

I see. Have you ever seen Caddyshack? :)

re: #140 iceweasel

I can only quote Alexander Pope: The proper study of mankind is man.

re: #139 haakondahl

Beware Galactic Skid Marks.

that reminds me of the GoGo's song Skidmarks on my shorts

(skip to about 2:10 for the music %-)

re: #142 BatGuano

I see. Have you ever seen Caddyshack? :)

surprisingly enough, no... bits and pieces there, but, evidently, i've spent more time living it than watching it. %-)

re: #141 redc1c4

Sex with Ducks

WTF? This is hilarious, thank you for posting it.

re: #143 BatGuano

I can only quote Alexander Pope: The proper study of mankind is man.

not sure we're smart enough to do that... %-)

re: #146 iceweasel

WTF? This is hilarious, thank you for posting it.

first thing i did was hit pause and get another beer... it's not to be watched s*ber, IMHO.

so, anyway... who's seen LoL this evening/morning?

re: #145 redc1c4

surprisingly enough, no... bits and pieces there, but, evidently, i've spent more time living it than watching it. %-)

Apparently, so!

re: #138 BatGuano

I love a good monkey-sex thread (although I've never actually seen one). Those bonobos can be scandalous!

A monkey fisting how-to.

re: #147 redc1c4

not sure we're smart enough to do that... %-)

BatGuano: if he's not posting clips from Beavis and Butthead, he's quoting Alexander Pope and making allusions to Caddyshack.

I nominate BG as the Renaissance Man (lizard? bat? --lesbian seagull trapped in a renaissance man's body?) of the thread.

Fruitcup!

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet --->
Help yourselves!

re: #151 haakondahl

A monkey fisting how-to.

Before I click on this, is it about ropes?

re: #153 redc1c4

Fruitcup!

Ahhh... the Red Special I see...

re: #154 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet --->
Help yourselves!

Thank you, littleoldlady!

re: #154 littleoldlady

we were running about 8 second delay today... at least in LA. %-)

re: #149 redc1c4

so, anyway... who's seen LoL this evening/morning?

Nobody. It's 5 am and everyone's sleeping. NICE HIT on the fruitcup timing! :-)

re: #156 freetoken

Ahhh... the Red Special I see...

kinda small to be anything i'd serve...

/even if it was everclear. %-)

re: #154 littleoldlady

Fruitcup is on the buffet --->

Good morning! I see that Red is helping in the kitchen this morning...

BatGuano! :-)

re: #154 littleoldlady

:23 seconds off: let's work on that n'kay?

re: #159 littleoldlady

Nobody. It's 5 am and everyone's sleeping. NICE HIT on the fruitcup timing! :-)

that was my registration post... i figured the numbers wouldn't change much in a minute or two, so i went with the 8 second difference. %-)

/call me lucky

re: #163 BatGuano

:23 seconds off: let's work on that n'kay?

let's see you do better, 'k?

/white smoke

re: #161 freetoken

freetoken! :_)

Page Load Error :-(

re: #141 redc1c4

Sex with Ducks

I've favorited it, ya big galoot.

No, I don' know what a galoot is.

AND my nose is slipping, too. :-(

re: #154 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet --->
Help yourselves!

Awesome thing is that I actually AM eating fruit at the moment.

re: #166 littleoldlady

Page Load Error :-(

Hmmm... works fine for me. Try again?

Matrix! :-)

So which is better? Virtual or real? ;-)

re: #170 freetoken

Got it! WOW!

re: #160 redc1c4

Or White Duck?

re: #171 littleoldlady

Matrix! :-)

So which is better? Virtual or real? ;-)

I'm just gonna Barack Obama-it and just say "hope and change".

:-/

re: #154 littleoldlady

Good morning littleoldlady

re: #152 iceweasel

Thanks! I'll accept the title until gmsc returns: He's the actual factual.

FamHistoryGuy! :-)

Hey, you! Where've you been?

re: #155 BatGuano

Before I click on this, is it about ropes?

Now *that's* kinky.

re: #165 redc1c4

let's see you do better, 'k?

/white smoke

Naw, I'm late for everything.

re: #178 haakondahl

Now *that's* kinky.

I'm also kinda afraid to click on anything about monkey fisting, whatever that is. :(

re: #177 littleoldlady

Been lurking instead of posting.

Lady friend had a heart bypass about three months ago and a bilateral feforal artery bypass three weeks ago. Been a little stressed.

re: #180 iceweasel

I'm also kinda afraid to click on anything about monkey fisting, whatever that is. :(

Think bonobos. Shhh...

Morning folks...coffee will be done in few...

(Pavlovian drool starting to show)
Fruitcup!

Thank You littleoldlady :-))

re: #181 FamHistoryGuy

PIMF femoral. Got to watch that typing.

re: #180 iceweasel

I'm also kinda afraid to click on anything about monkey fisting, whatever that is. :(

You cats will live long lives indeed.

re: #181 FamHistoryGuy

OY! OY! OY! :-(

"A little stressed"?!

Hope she's doing better!

re: #173 FamHistoryGuy

Or White Duck?

Cold Duck?

/nasty stuff (except for the alcohol part %-)

re: #181 FamHistoryGuy

Been lurking instead of posting.

Lady friend had a heart bypass about three months ago and a bilateral feforal artery bypass three weeks ago. Been a little stressed.

ouch... best wishes on all that. can't imagine *why* you'd be stressed. %-)

re: #181 FamHistoryGuy

Been lurking instead of posting.

Lady friend had a heart bypass about three months ago and a bilateral feforal artery bypass three weeks ago. Been a little stressed.

I hope everything is going well.

re: #186 haakondahl

You cats will live long lives indeed.

That sounds like it should be part of an ancient blessing (or curse)

"May you live in interesting times -- and may your cats live long lives indeed."

re: #181 FamHistoryGuy

Sorry to hear about your friend...hope she's recovering well

UncleRancher! :-)

What's going on here tonight? Anthropology...psychology...I feel as though I'm back in school!

;-)

re: #187 littleoldlady

Much better. Incisions healing nicely. Still tires easily. At least her feet are warm again with a strong pulse.

re: #193 littleoldlady

UncleRancher! :-)

What's going on here tonight? Anthropology...psychology...I feel as though I'm back in school!

;-)

Please, no more school!

re: #11 Fenway_Nation

Have any lizards been to Twin Falls, ID; Austin, TX or Kansas City, MO?

Yes, I've been to those places... Does that make me special? Never lived there, just passing through seeing relatives in one case. Stopped for fuel in KC on a very very late night going home once.

re: #185 FamHistoryGuy

PIMF femoral. Got to watch that typing.

God, that must be rough. Anything involving the femoral especially...Best wishes to you and your honey both.

re: #188 redc1c4

White Duck if I remember correctly. A clear booze like Everclear. Even the NCO Club at Ubon could not give it away at the raffles.

re: #193 littleoldlady

UncleRancher! :-)

What's going on here tonight? Anthropology...psychology...I feel as though I'm back in school!

;-)

Anthropological psychology.

re: #195 TheMatrix31

Please, no more school!

closing out my law class with a few brickbats in the chatroom: the instructor got dumb, so i fired him up, and then the class clown got st00pid, so he got a ToT... and came back with the lame. %-)

re: #197 iceweasel

Thanks. She is doing well now.

Now, if I can just get her to totally quit smoking.

re: #201 FamHistoryGuy

Quit smoking is tough. Very tough. You have to want it.

re: #198 FamHistoryGuy

White Duck if I remember correctly. A clear booze like Everclear. Even the NCO Club at Ubon could not give it away at the raffles.

best hit i got on a "White Duck Drink" search:

A small, white duck goes into a bar, jumps on the barstool, orders a shot of booze and says to the bartender 'listen, I'm a bricklayer on the construction site nearby. The works will last for some time and I'll be coming here every day around lunchtime for a shot of booze, so think about some discount or something'. The duck drinks the shot, jumps off the stool and goes out. The bartender is shocked, he's never seen a talking duck before, so he calls his friend who owns a circus: 'listen, there's a talking duck coming to my bar, come tomorrow around lunchtime and see for yourself'. So the next day the circus owner waits in the bar and the duck goes in, jumps on the barstool and orders a shot of booze. The circus manager overcomes his awe and says: 'Hello sir, I'm a circus owner and I want to offer you a job. I can give you whatever money you want, plus a company car, a cell phone, best hotels, best women, whatever you want'. The duck considers his offer for a moment and says 'so you're a circus owner, right?' 'Right' 'And your circus is one of those big tents, right?' 'Right.' 'With a sandy arena in the middle?' 'Yes' 'And with rows of seats around?' 'Correct' 'So what the fuck you need a bricklayer for?

re: #181 FamHistoryGuy

Best wishes for your Lady friend. Speedy recovery (and be strong:I know you will be).

re: #203 redc1c4

That's FUNNY

"Strategic Challenges in the Changing Middle East' a lecture at the Washington Institute for Near East Studies by Moshe Ya'alon (former Chief of the General Staff of the IDF and present Minister for Strategic Affairs in the Israeli government)
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]

Mr Ya'alon speaks of misconceptions about Iran, Moslem Radicals as opposed to moderates, the Palestinians, present US policy regarding the above and the misconceptions fostered by the Main Stream Media

re: #202 UncleRancher

You are right. Very tough. You would think that being opened up like that would be incentive enough.

Had her daughters scared. The one has sever trouble with seeing blood. Just could not go into the ICU recovery room. Had to wait until on the regular floor.

re: #201 FamHistoryGuy

Thanks. She is doing well now.

Now, if I can just get her to totally quit smoking.

Good luck. I have complete sympathy with that, both how hard it is to quit and how important. It seems like there's a combination of both wanting to break the addiction and being physically ready to break it that have to align, and that rarely happens...

Have lizards talked about this yet? e-cigarettes? I gather they're not approved yet in the US, and there are still some health concerns, as they still deliver nicotine into the system, but so far it looks like you can at least avoid some of the health risks of smoking--

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #207 FamHistoryGuy

It's always hard to see someone you care about hurt like that...even without being scared of blood...

re: #209 srb1976

and especially a parent, when you're a child...

re: #208 iceweasel

I think it was brought up a little while back. Did not follow it that closely though.

re: #178 haakondahl
I just clicked on it. My dirty little mind. :)

re: #209 srb1976

The oldest daughter (38) has a problem with needles. All of the tubes and lines really freaked her out. It had to do with her Dad's death. She tends to see the equipment and not the person.

re: #207 FamHistoryGuy

My no-tobacco cold turkey resolution went along the lines of "This is NOT a part of my life anymore". Now going on 9 years since last contact.

My convincer was also a close friend who died a horrible death from small cell lung cancer.

re: #210 iceweasel

and especially a parent, when you're a child...

You know it's funny, long after we should know better, we still expect our parents to be invincible...

re: #213 FamHistoryGuy

The oldest daughter (38) has a problem with needles. All of the tubes and lines really freaked her out. It had to do with her Dad's death. She tends to see the equipment and not the person.

When my stepmother had her bypass, it was the IV line in her neck that freaked me out...hard to see. Much easier after she was released, which was fairly quickly, I think she was only in the hospital 2 or 3 days

re: #215 srb1976

I think it comes from not having several generations living the the same home or close by. Makes it harder to experience.

re: #217 FamHistoryGuy

I think you're right.

re: #216 srb1976

IV lines, respirator tubes and stomach tubes with sensor leads every where. More than a bit daunting.

re: #215 srb1976

You know it's funny, long after we should know better, we still expect our parents to be invincible...

Very true. It testifies to the strength and importance of the child-parent bond for both parties. On some level parents can never stop wanting to take care of and protect their children, even adult children -- and even adult children can't help still having that small part of themselves where the parent is still godlike and permanent.

It's one reason why abused kids will still fiercely love their parents in many instances, and why parents will fiercely defend and protect their children, even adult children, who do terrible things.

i get the feeling that w*rking in the medical field makes one jaded...

/not that i want to see the few people in the world i care about going through the procedures.

re: #218 BatGuano

Living far apart, you do not see the gradual changes. All of a sudden, the vital, strong person has become this frail person you do not recognize. That tends to be jolting.

re: #220 iceweasel

i had a contrarian reply that i self deleted... that's mostly true.

re: #222 FamHistoryGuy

Living far apart, you do not see the gradual changes. All of a sudden, the vital, strong person has become this frail person you do not recognize. That tends to be jolting.

that, and the wrong one lives the longest.

re: #221 redc1c4

Not so much jaded as a protective distance. There a a number of occupations that tend to encourage that.

Morning folks, looks like we're havin' fun now.

'Go ahead and pull my finger!', screams lil' Kim: U.S. Nuke Umbrella a Declaration of War

re: #222 FamHistoryGuy

Right again. We cherish our mobility but it separates us from our roots and our loved ones.

re: #224 redc1c4

Seems the ones that enjoy doing damage sometimes outlive everyone else.

re: #222 FamHistoryGuy

The same thing is going on with our kids. It's a good idea to get together at least once a year so the changes don't come all at once.

re: #226 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

It was only a truce and not a signed peace treaty. Technically we (the UN) are still in a state of war with the NorKs.

re: #229 UncleRancher

I wish it were possible. My last family reunion was 37 years ago.

re: #227 BatGuano

Family is spread out all over. Even with cell phones and other devices, we still manage not to talk as often as we need to.

re: #226 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Morning folks, looks like we're havin' fun now.

'Go ahead and pull my finger!', screams lil' Kim: U.S. Nuke Umbrella a Declaration of War

Fearless Leader appears to not understand that there's a boomer off shore that could wipe out his country witn one MIRV warhead. Perhaps a demonstration...

re: #231 BatGuano

I wish it were possible. My last family reunion was 37 years ago.

At the last funeral we all resolved to get together before the next one. Probably won't happen though.

re: #228 FamHistoryGuy

Seems the ones that enjoy doing damage sometimes outlive everyone else.

not what i meant, otherwise i'd live forever. if one is nice, and one not, the nice one dies first, it seems.

re: #229 UncleRancher

Once my mothers mother passed away, her six kids no longer get together that often. Now travel has become difficult for age and medical reasons. Also, they now have their own kids, grandkids and great-grandkids.

re: #232 FamHistoryGuy

You're right again. I need to change that in my life. Over the last few years many of my relatives have died and I found out only incidentally.

re: #233 UncleRancher

Fearless Leader appears to not understand that there's a boomer off shore that could wipe out his country witn one MIRV warhead. Perhaps a demonstration...

Fearless Leader recognizes that Ear Leader is a ball less wonder, and that he can bluff until 2012, unless the Chinese suddenly man up. Given the results of the Viet Nam effort a back a few years ago, and the loss of face if they failed after all their expenditures on military stuff since then, i doubt they are eager to try anything. much down for them, little up.

re: #233 UncleRancher

More a matter of crazy and a definate disconnect from reality. Plus, after he is dead, why should he care what happens to his country and people? He does not care a whit about them now.

re: #232 FamHistoryGuy

Family is spread out all over. Even with cell phones and other devices, we still manage not to talk as often as we need to.

Even with most of my family close by, we manage not to see them very often...every time I think about it I decide to get the kids out to see the relatives more often, but it never works out.

trying to make sure that the kids know their great-grandparents...not everyone gets that chance...

re: #236 FamHistoryGuy

That's kind of normal. It's still a good idea to get together, however. Some friends had a cousin's picnic a few years back. One of the girls did not invite the guy she was dating, but he showed up anyway. Turns out they were cousins but didn't know it. It's good to find these things out early on.

re: #223 redc1c4

i had a contrarian reply that i self deleted... that's mostly true.

I was composing my own contrarian reply in my head as I wrote...I just didn't think it was appropriate in these circumstances.

We can probably agree that what I wrote is the way things ought to be, and the way things often are...even though it leaves out a lot of people and circumstances. I wish what I wrote could be a universal truth, but it isn't.

re: #235 redc1c4

Different words, same definition. I doubt you enjoy creating pain amounst your loved ones. Or those that should be your loved ones.

Of course, some families are toxic.

re: #243 FamHistoryGuy

Different words, same definition. I doubt you enjoy creating pain amounst your loved ones. Or those that should be your loved ones.

Of course, some families are toxic.

Sadly, yes. Some people are toxic too, whether they're friends or bosses or partners.

re: #242 iceweasel

I was composing my own contrarian reply in my head as I wrote...I just didn't think it was appropriate in these circumstances.

We can probably agree that what I wrote is the way things ought to be, and the way things often are...even though it leaves out a lot of people and circumstances. I wish what I wrote could be a universal truth, but it isn't.

amen... my life, for the most part, has needed a better scriptwriter.

/and don't give me that BS "you are your own scriptwriter" schisse.

If you are a regular, you know what this is. I think this comes down to tradition and family.

re: #245 redc1c4

amen... my life, for the most part, has needed a better scriptwriter.

/and don't give me that BS "you are your own scriptwriter" schisse.

For what it's worth, even if you are your own scriptwriter, you still have to work with the plot, props, budget and plan that you're given...
That can limit your options = )

re: #243 FamHistoryGuy

Different words, same definition. I doubt you enjoy creating pain amounst your loved ones. Or those that should be your loved ones.

Of course, some families are toxic.

one can be related without being a loved one...

everyone has two families: one you are born to, and the other you choose.

my second family has been much more enjoyable and pleasant to know.

re: #245 redc1c4

amen... my life, for the most part, has needed a better scriptwriter.

/and don't give me that BS "you are your own scriptwriter" schisse.

Believe me, I wouldn't! -- we're not our own scriptwriters. Even when we can control some things, we don't get to control everything.

It's one reason I really hate The Secret and similar things; they imply that if you only want something badly enough you can somehow make it happen. That just isn't true.

re: #245 redc1c4

I could have use a grove of clue bat trees.

Looking back, I can see too many poor choices. But, experience is the best teacher. (And a right b*tch of one at that.)

re: #247 srb1976

re: #248 redc1c4

What you both said. Very true and phrased much better than the idea I was groping towards expressing.

I especially like the idea that there's the family we're born to and then the one we make/choose/create. Blood isn't the only thing that makes a family.

re: #248 redc1c4

Did not meet my biological father until I was 50. Had lost the impulse to have an interesting meeting by that point. Did find out about a number of half sibs though. Funny thing, I like the different wifes of his that I have met.

Family Tradition

NO Where NEAR Safe For W*rk...

re: #247 srb1976

For what it's worth, even if you are your own scriptwriter, you still have to work with the plot, props, budget and plan that you're given...
That can limit your options = )

that's tough enough, but it's all the last minute rewrites and ad libs that really screw things up... imho.

LoL, you still here?

re: #255 redc1c4

I'm the only one with the half hour LGF server timeout, right?

/persecuted! :-(
//and lost track of the conversation...