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1 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:36:54pm

What is "books"?
Googling now......
Like websites on paper?

2 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:37:07pm

Alouette, just for you.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:37:11pm

I will hereby admit to being a total devoted fan of Kipling's Kim.

4 jorline  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:38:09pm

Books...movies, what a night!

5 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:38:35pm

Is this thread fucked up or is it just me?

6 Bobblehead  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:38:54pm
7 Gella  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:38:55pm

KT it is weird

8 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:39:07pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

It's f*cked up.

9 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:39:14pm

It was the Amazon book widget. I just removed that code.

10 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:39:40pm

re: #9 Charles

Whoo Hoo

11 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:39:50pm

re: #7 Gella

KT it is weird

I'm weird too, it's kinda hard to tell the difference.

12 jorline  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:39:55pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Is this thread fucked up or is it just me?

I'm in the same boat with you KT...I hit post and the page started reloading.

13 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:39:56pm

re: #7 Gella

KT it is weird

What exactly is weird about it? I don't see anything really unusual except for the content.

14 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:40:03pm

UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN is definitely worth a read. The Mormons have a very dark and bloody history that's not often discussed, and Krakauer recounts some fascinating tales from it.

15 Gella  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:40:55pm

re: #13 FurryOldGuyJeans

What exactly is weird about it? I don't see anything really unusual except for the content.

it has been corrected :)

16 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:41:35pm

re: #15 Gella

it has been corrected :)

Well, PFFFFFT! Be that way, ignore my query, why don'cha? ;)

17 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:43:18pm

Yay! Book thread!

I read that Krakauer book when it came out; I'm a fan of Krakauer's writing and reporting generally. This one is particularly apposite to be reading at the moment, given recent events.

18 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:43:32pm

I have this book on order from Amazon. Can hardly wait to read it!

19 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:47:48pm

re: #14 mikalm

UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN is definitely worth a read. The Mormons have a very dark and bloody history that's not often discussed, and Krakauer recounts some fascinating tales from it.

It also provides a window not just into Mormonism generally, but the very specific individual psychologies of splinter groups, fanatics, zealots, violent extremists. Lessons that are useful right now not merely insofar as they apply to these 2 particular guys from this one splinter group.

i really need to reread it.

20 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:51:05pm

re: #19 iceweasel

It also provides a window not just into Mormonism generally, but the very specific individual psychologies of splinter groups, fanatics, zealots, violent extremists. Lessons that are useful right now not merely insofar as they apply to these 2 particular guys from this one splinter group.

i really need to reread it.

If you're interested in fringe/violent Mormonism, check out these two books:

PROPHET OF DEATH by Pete Earley
THE FOUR O'CLOCK MURDERS by Scott Anderson

21 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:51:45pm

Before I go to sleep, I'll post the oft cited:

Book Category Public Service Announcement:

PLEASE post any books you recommend in the Book Category of the Spin-off Links. It is handy for future reference AND if you link thru Amazon it counts toward the tip jar for Charles.

PSA off.

weet dreams all!

22 Zimriel  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:53:49pm

Under The Banner Of Heaven is an awesome book.

If you're interested in old-school Mormonism, I also recommend:
- Will Bagley, "Blood of the Prophets" (Mountain Meadows);
- Richard Abanes, "One Nation Under Gods" (Mormon history by a fundamentalist Christian - but done very well for all that);
- Dan Vogel & Brent Metcalfe, "American Apocrypha" (essays);
- Sarah Gordon, "The Mormon Question" (on how the US dealt with the faith);
- Sir Richard Burton, "City of the Saints" (yes, the same guy who snuck into Mecca in the 19th century! he snuck into Salt Lake too)

A lot of this, I found in Salt Lake City's Barnes & Noble.

I have the Doctrine & Covenants, Articles of Faith, Joseph Smith Translation of the KJV and Unpublished Revelations floating around here too...

There's another one - "Who Wrote The Book Of Mormon?" by Cowdrey and Davis and Vanick - those guys think it might have been plagiarised off of one Mr Spaulding's unpublished novel.

And I'm told D Michael Quinn's books are pretty good, too. And Orson Pratt had some ... interesting ideas...

23 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:54:08pm

I have really enjoyed the "Time Travelers Wife", weird but good fiction. I highly recommend "One Second After" by William Forstchen, it was so good I'm going to see if the library has the rest of his books! John Bolton's "Surrender is not an option" is a scathing story of how the UN works. And I've just started "The next 100 years" by George Friedman, it's a forecast of what will happen globally, politically in the 21st century. I will probably have to read it twice, for the implications to sink in!

24 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:56:49pm

re: #22 Zimriel

This book is a good survey of all the wild and weird sects that spun off of Joseph Smith's original group.

25 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 9:59:23pm

OT: I think in light of today's events, I'm looking more seriously at getting some Israeli Bonds.

The 5-year Mazel Tov bonds look like they're within my price range and pay a decent 2.85% interest rate- better than the current rates for US Savings bonds, not quite as good as some of the high-end Cetrificates of Deposit.

Plus flipping the bird to the likes of Von Brunn, rev wright, the Divest from Israel shitstains, David Duke, International ANSWER and Hassan Nasrallah is a nice little bonus.

26 Zimriel  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:00:42pm

re: #24 mikalm

This book is a good survey of all the wild and weird sects that spun off of Joseph Smith's original group.

I used to call the Reorganised LDS the "Shi'a Branch of Mormonism".

RLDS followed the Prophet's family, you see; where the Utah guys followed the sunna of the Prophet...

27 Bobblehead  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:02:21pm

The Harry Dresden mysteries by Jim Butcher are good fun and perfect summer reading.

28 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:02:57pm

re: #20 mikalm

re: #22 Zimriel

Fantastic! Thanks for the info guys.... I'll definitely have to check at least some of these out soon.
I'm not so much interested in Mormonism per se, but I've been interested in books that track extremism in America and violent fringe groups generally for a long time now. I'll have to look at these soon too. Thanks!

29 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:03:40pm

re: #26 Zimriel

And the Strangites are the Ismailis! Only a few of them are left, though. They have a bizarre history -- their leader declared himself a King and set up a little theocracy on Beaver Island in Lake Michigan.

30 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:04:38pm

re: #1 Killgore Trout

What is "books"?
Googling now......
Like websites on paper?

Paper, it's like sliced up trees, they used to use the same thing to make grocery bags, ask your granmamma

31 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:05:06pm

re: #28 iceweasel

No prob, IW. I have the same interests, and can recommend more titles.

32 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:06:21pm

re: #30 itellu3times

Paper, it's like sliced up trees, they used to use the same thing to make grocery bags, ask your granmamma

'Groceries'? Aren't 'groceries' that stuff that comes from Amazon.com?

33 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:07:50pm

OT: Great work today Charles, exposing the killer Von Brunn. LGF is second to none when it comes to serious investigative journalism.

34 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:09:38pm

Last modern fiction I read was Requiem for an Assassin, it wuz OK.

Reading Noam Chomsky's On Nature and Language, circa 2002, where he gives late notes on his linguistic theories - I think I posted a rant about it OT on a thread a week or so ago.

35 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:09:40pm

Somewhat OT, but I saw a "Mitt '12" bumper sticker today, on Rt.3 north of Boston.

36 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:10:57pm

re: #31 mikalm

No prob, IW. I have the same interests, and can recommend more titles.

Cool! Lay it on me, pleaze!

I've pretty much been getting all my info about it from dave neiwert's blog orcinus for 3 years or so. I really want to read his books "In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest" and "The Eliminationists: How Hate Talk Radicalized the American Right". Neiwert's the whole reason I'd heard of things like the Christian Identity movement, Sovereign citizen movement, and so on.

37 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:15:00pm

re: #36 iceweasel

My interests focus more on religious-cult crime and violence.

38 pat  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:15:08pm

I think Letterman is mentally ill. And I am serious.

39 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:16:23pm

re: #38 pat

I think Letterman is mentally ill. And I am serious.

Does Pfiezer make PDS (Palin Derangement Syndrome) medication?

40 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:18:45pm

re: #37 mikalm

My interests focus more on religious-cult crime and violence.

Perfect. Seriously. Any recs you want to share will be much appreciated.

41 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:21:21pm

re: #39 Fenway_Nation

Does Pfiezer make PDS (Palin Derangement Syndrome) medication?

I think Letterman is an ass and a misogynist. Not convinced that it's only Palin he hates; I think he might just hate women.

That crack about Palin buying makeup to "update her slutty flight attendant look" isn't the remark of someone who only hates Palin, or only hates conservative women, but is the remark of someone with some deepseated issues against all women.

42 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:21:22pm

re: #22 Zimriel

I would say you definitely do have an interest in Mormons.

I know of Porter Rockwell. What do you think of him? I haven't read a book on him, but saw something about him on TV once which led me to a little research.

43 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:22:55pm

re: #21 ggt

Before I go to sleep, I'll post the oft cited:

Book Category Public Service Announcement:

PLEASE post any books you recommend in the Book Category of the Spin-off Links. It is handy for future reference AND if you link thru Amazon it counts toward the tip jar for Charles.

PSA off.

weet dreams all!

How do I get to the book category of the spin off links?
I would like to see that! TIA!
(Sorry, but I don't know!)

44 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:23:51pm

A great place to start for fringe group-finding is The Encyclopedia of American Religions. Check your library for the latest edition; you can also get older ones for cheap on Amazon.

45 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:23:52pm

re: #38 pat

re: #41 iceweasel

Has he/his writers gotten in any additional cheap shots since last night's show?

46 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:25:11pm

re: #19 iceweasel

Speaking of fringe Christianity, I forgot to recommend Salvation on Sand Mountain, by Dennis Covington. An inside look at a group of snake-handling Pentecostal congregations in north Alabama. Absolutely riveting, with not a hint of tabloid-esque or exploitation. It's stayed in my mind for years.

Also partly a murder mystery, as one of the pastors is charged with attempted murder after supposedly forcing his wife's arm into a cage of snakes. Moments of unexpected humor, including my favorite line, a witness testifying in the trial:

Attorney: "Reverend, you and your wife breed these snakes, am I correct?"

Witness: "No, sir. They do that by theirselves."

47 davesax  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:26:03pm

Love Michael Connelly!

The Lincoln Lawyer was great!

48 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:27:49pm

How to steal an ATM machine.


Namaste, y'all
49 davesax  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:27:56pm

Oh, Elmore is da man, too!

REad Game of Thrones Charles, Game of Thrones! Before the HBO series comes out!

You'll love it!

50 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:29:23pm

Testing

51 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:31:28pm

re: #40 iceweasel

Drop me an email and I'll send you some more recommendations.

52 jorline  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:33:36pm

Nite all...see you in the morning.

53 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:35:55pm

re: #52 jorline

Bye jorline!
/Buy Israeli bonds!

54 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:38:17pm

re: #46 ShanghaiEd

Excellent, I'll add that to my list (along with the others you've mentioned before). I'm getting great recs from you and others here.

I remember reading an article ages ago involving snakehandlers, and it did involve a murder or an attempted murder I think....or maybe just deaths from handling the snakes? I wonder if it's the same one? How many could there be? I've always been fascinated by this practice.
Anyway this book looks great. Thanks!

55 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:38:59pm

re: #51 mikalm

I'll be sure to. Thanks in advance!

56 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:40:37pm

The American Thinker is now posting articles by crazy Pam. Its too bad really, it used to be a useful site, but such is life.

57 Pvt Bin Jammin  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:42:05pm

re: #56 MrPaulRevere

I absolutely loved that site. What a shame.

58 JohnAdams  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:44:07pm

re: #38 pat

I think Letterman is mentally ill. And I am serious.

How does he get away with the comment about Palin's 14 year old daughter getting knocked up by a ballplayer? People knock Fox news, but where else has it been covered?

59 mikalm  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:44:13pm

See y'all later.

60 Sharmuta  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:44:13pm

Hard to dance to books.

61 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:44:40pm

re: #57 Pvt Bin Jammin

I remember when it first started in '06, it was a daily must read. Now it seems to give voice to all manner of kookery.

62 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:45:12pm

re: #43 Floral Giraffe

How do I get to the book category of the spin off links?

When you post in the box, there is a pull-down menu, alphabetical, and when you click to bring it down, 'Books' is there, and just click on it, and it will show at the top of the spinoff.

63 realwest  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:45:31pm

Well goodnight you all - I gotta get some sleep. Hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

64 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:46:10pm

re: #58 JohnAdams

Talk radio and the blogosphere for whatever that's worth.

65 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:46:13pm

re: #57 Pvt Bin Jammin

Boo!

/Whoops, I've said it again.

66 Pvt Bin Jammin  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:47:40pm

re: #61 MrPaulRevere

I remember when it first started in '06, it was a daily must read. Now it seems to give voice to all manner of kookery.

Truly sad, I used to like the History Channel too, and look what it has become. We are truly living in "interesting" times, to say the least.

68 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:48:58pm

A couple of books I recently read and liked:

1) Amplified: Fiction from Leading Alt-Country, Indie Rock, Blues and Folk Musicians

Short stories. Some are really a different look at life through the imaginative minds of musicians. I still have a couple left to go before I'm finished.

2) Little Bee

A Nigerian refugee. It was sad. Pieces of the story keep drifting through my head--the little boy always dressed in a Batman costume, the Jamaican girl, the toughness of the narrator--Little Bee.

69 JohnAdams  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:49:02pm

Speaking of good reads, I've recently discovered the spy novels of Daniel Silva, many of which feature a main character from Israeli intelligence. Silva's first, which I'm reading now, is about British/German intelligence officers trying to crack the details about D-Day. It's an excellent and timely story.

70 Syrah  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:49:47pm

re: #60 Sharmuta

Hard to dance to books.

Books are for sitting by cozy fires with a warm blanket and cup of hot chocolate.

71 ಠ_ಠ  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:50:01pm

I'm still waiting on a Kindle I can read comic books on.

72 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:50:57pm

Speaking of books Sharmuta, they delivered Dr. Sowell's book the other day. To call it serious reading would be an understatement.

73 Syrah  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:51:11pm

re: #66 Pvt Bin Jammin

Truly sad, I used to like the History Channel too, and look what it has become. We are truly living in "interesting" times, to say the least.

It is all becoming Babylon.

74 JohnAdams  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:51:18pm

re: #64 Fenway_Nation

Talk radio and the blogosphere for whatever that's worth.

Which is where I heard about it, but what about the millions of people who get their news from ABC, CBS, NBC, and the NYT?

75 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:51:23pm

re: #70 Syrah

Books are for sitting by cozy fires with a warm blanket and cup of hot chocolate.

Or in the hammock with a Coke, weather permitting.

76 JohnAdams  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:55:19pm

I didn't cave on "cell phone" until the last 10% of people had one. I think many of the "I love the feel and touch of a real book" will eventually cave in the next decade.

77 Pvt Bin Jammin  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:57:41pm

re: #67 GNIDAthe#seCond

Is Violent Anti-Semitism Growing In The Home Of The Brave?

I posted something about this earlier. My daughter, who is a victim's advocate for the local district attorney's office had a five hour conference this morning at a Jewish center where she was a speaker. She has done many of these but today was unbelievable, security wise. They searched her body and entire purse. They even electronically scanned her employee ID. She got in, but a postal inspector was not admitted because she carries a gun. It was 7:30 AM, Pacific Time, so I don't know if they could have possibly known about the attack in DC. Sad times we are living in.

78 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:57:41pm

re: #56 MrPaulRevere

The American Thinker is now posting articles by crazy Pam. Its too bad really, it used to be a useful site, but such is life.

I never thought of them as particularly wingnutty, but apart from now publishing the shrieking harpy, I see they have an article by Jack Cashill, who I remember as the author of a tortured series of articles claiming that Bill Ayers actually wrote Obama's books. Now he's apparently calling for a reinvestigation of the crash of TWA flight 800, believing it was shot down.

I happened to run across this little gem there last month in an article about Sotomoyer called "compelling white guy stories"-- (note, this is in an actual article, it's not some comment)

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

I am sick and tired of so many non-whites and females acting like white males know nothing of life but some kind of mythical white-bread experience. Here's a hint: nobody grew up with Leave It To Beaver or Ozzie and Harriet. Those were TV shows.

White males in real life tend not to go on Oprah, so you non-white females might not be familiar with us.

So yeah, I wrote off American Thinker at that moment. I'd always had this vague impression they were fairly respectable.

79 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 10:59:23pm

re: #54 iceweasel

Excellent, I'll add that to my list (along with the others you've mentioned before). I'm getting great recs from you and others here.

I remember reading an article ages ago involving snakehandlers, and it did involve a murder or an attempted murder I think....or maybe just deaths from handling the snakes? I wonder if it's the same one? How many could there be? I've always been fascinated by this practice.
Anyway this book looks great. Thanks!

Yes. Covington wrote about the trial for the NYT, and that series of articles started him working on the book. At one point he handled snakes himself, to see what it was like. He was also in a PBS documentary, as I recall. But the book is really primo. Memorable stuff.

80 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:05:36pm

re: #60 Sharmuta

Hard to dance to books.

But, you do it as well, as it can be done!
:)

81 freetoken  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:06:22pm

re: #78 iceweasel

AmericanThinker republishes just about anything, it seems. Agree, not a site worth visiting.

82 Pvt Bin Jammin  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:06:25pm

I am out, lizards. I have had martoonis. LOL

See everybody tomorrow. Take care.

83 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:07:16pm

re: #62 NY Nana

Well, it doesn't make sense right now, 'cause I'm tired, but I hearted it & will try tomorrow! Thank you!

84 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:07:43pm

re: #82 Pvt Bin Jammin


G'nite PB&J!

85 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:07:56pm

In the movie thread someone listed How Green Was My Valley, and I was thinking that the book was so much better than the movie is nearly disappointing. I know that "the book was better" is a universal complaint, but it's usually true.

I'm glad they made Narnia into a movie because of the amazing effects possible with technology that wasn't dreamed of when C.S. Lewis was writing his series. Still, most kids who read the books have a deeper appreciation than those who only saw it on screen.

86 JohnAdams  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:08:50pm

re: #78 iceweasel

So yeah, I wrote off American Thinker at that moment. I'd always had this vague impression they were fairly respectable.

Haven't gone to Atlas much lately, mostly because I'm not focused on Jewish issues (thought sympathetic to them), but it strikes me that if Pam was a liberal her site would be as big as Huffpo. Correct me if I'm wrong.

87 mrshankly01  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:09:52pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

great video. thanks.

88 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:14:26pm

re: #81 freetoken

Seems like there are fewer and fewer places on the right to visit at all now; more and more they're infested (or infected) with some kind of crazy.

I was thinking about that link you posted to that Ed M post at HotAir -- that post does have to be one of the dumbest things I've read on the Internet in some time. John Cole nailed it when he said the most infuriating thing about it is that Ed isn't actually that stupid - he's just playing the part for HotAir.

89 haakondahl  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:15:08pm

re: #72 MrPaulRevere

Speaking of books Sharmuta, they delivered Dr. Sowell's book the other day. To call it serious reading would be an understatement.

That book is a road paved with molasses and strewn with potholes, but each pothole is a cascade of realizations and connections that make you put the book down and think. Really think.
I am two weeks into it and only on page 113, which is quite a, uh, deliberative pace. I already need to go through the first forty pages again, this time with pen and pad nearby.

90 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:16:10pm

re: #79 ShanghaiEd

You know, I bet I read one of his articles back then. I know that it was something I'd read in the NYT. Serendipity!

91 haakondahl  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:17:20pm

re: #88 iceweasel

Seems like there are fewer and fewer places on the right to visit at all now; more and more they're infested (or infected) with some kind of crazy.

I was thinking about that link you posted to that Ed M post at HotAir -- that post does have to be one of the dumbest things I've read on the Internet in some time. John Cole nailed it when he said the most infuriating thing about it is that Ed isn't actually that stupid - he's just playing the part for HotAir.

Right. Ed was really good on The Northern Alliance, but the Podcast feed was so sketchy that I finally stopped trying to get it. Now I see strange things coming from his pen and wonder how long it will be before he decides to either fish or cut bait.

92 Catttt  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:18:12pm

Reinstalled Vista 32; downloaded 78 fricking updates; installed 78 fricking updates. So far so good. Touch Formica and steel.

Downloaded Safari. AWESOME so far. Wow.

93 Syrah  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:19:03pm

re: #89 haakondahl

That book is a road paved with molasses and strewn with potholes, but each pothole is a cascade of realizations and connections that make you put the book down and think. Really think.
I am two weeks into it and only on page 113, which is quite a, uh, deliberative pace. I already need to go through the first forty pages again, this time with pen and pad nearby.

It is a most interesting and I think a very important book. I agree that it was not an easy read. It covers much that requires some work to fully process.

94 freetoken  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:19:59pm

re: #88 iceweasel

One reason I post that stuff here is to show that indeed there is a melt down in process, amongst parts of the blogosphere.

The Theonomists have an interesting concept: The Eschatology of Epistemological Self Awareness.

Whatever one wants to think of Rushdoony, North, etc., that idea of theirs is something to think about.

95 haakondahl  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:21:50pm

re: #88 iceweasel

Seems like there are fewer and fewer places on the right to visit at all now; more and more they're infested (or infected) with some kind of crazy.

Here's what I think happened: The left fringe went crazy in public with BDS, but the right fringe was going crazy in private. When the left was elected across the board, the right fringe cork popped and hosed down the whole right wing with crazy. Some are shaking it off--some are lapping it up.

Using the "ring" model, the craziness has been making its way around clockwise.

96 Syrah  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:22:23pm

bbl

97 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:25:02pm

re: #86 JohnAdams

Haven't gone to Atlas much lately, mostly because I'm not focused on Jewish issues (thought sympathetic to them), but it strikes me that if Pam was a liberal her site would be as big as Huffpo. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd respectfully disagree. I think Pam has a brand of crazy that is bone deep. It's nothing to do with any of her ideological commitments or associations (although quite a few of those are highly questionable, to say the least) - she seems to have been having some kind of ongoing meltdown for quite a while.

HuffPo is a weird site in that it's huge and aggregates so many articles, so it's not quite right to compare it to a site run by a single blogger or even a small team. Although it's left, so much of what's there isn't even overtly political: they have sections on style and entertainment and god knows what else.

I don't find it especially useful for anything unless you want to see the latest pictures of the Obamas' dog or something.

98 Jack Burton  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:26:13pm

re: #88 iceweasel

During the Bush administration, some of my lefty friends became unbearable to be around and I had to distance myself from them (they went especially ape shit over the Iraq war, so I was antisocial from about 2003 to 2008). I'm seeing hints of this from my right-of-center friends now, not as bad as the lefties were but it's slowly creeping out. I fear that I might have to go through this again. I'm going to try to avoid it or see if I can get into 'agree to disagree' treaties with them if need be.

As far as blogs go. LGF is only vaguely politically related blog I go to now. All of the "Conservatives" on the net seem to have a healthy dose of "It's our turn to be lunatics now" and I have no time for moonbattery other than to occasionally mock it.

99 Jack Burton  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:26:50pm

re: #86 JohnAdams

Haven't gone to Atlas much lately, mostly because I'm not focused on Jewish issues (thought sympathetic to them), but it strikes me that if Pam was a liberal her site would be as big as Huffpo. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not being focused on Jewish issues is not a reason not to go there. Her being completely batshit crazy and off the deep end with ODS conspiracy theories and being an apologist for Euro neonazis (despite her being Jewish)... that is a reason not to go there.

100 haakondahl  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:27:08pm

re: #76 JohnAdams

I didn't cave on "cell phone" until the last 10% of people had one. I think many of the "I love the feel and touch of a real book" will eventually cave in the next decade.

Bite your electronic tongue.

101 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:27:08pm

re: #97 iceweasel

Meh.....I used HuffPo to confirm that the AFL-CIO cast their lot with the quiskoslings.

/stopped watch; twice a day...

102 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:29:45pm

re: #94 freetoken

One reason I post that stuff here is to show that indeed there is a melt down in process, amongst parts of the blogosphere.

The Theonomists have an interesting concept: The Eschatology of Epistemological Self Awareness.

Whatever one wants to think of Rushdoony, North, etc., that idea of theirs is something to think about.



I'm really glad you *do* post that stuff; I think it's really important. Most people don't really know what's been going on over there, or think that people who are alarmed are somehow exaggerating.

Who are the Theonomists and what's this concept? It sounds interesting and I've never heard of it.

103 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:30:31pm

re: #101 Fenway_Nation

Meh.....I used HuffPo to confirm that the AFL-CIO cast their lot with the quiskoslings.

/stopped watch; twice a day...

ha! yeah, that's a good use. :)

104 freetoken  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:33:00pm

re: #98 ArchangelMichael

As far as blogs go. LGF is only vaguely politically related blog I go to now. All of the "Conservatives" on the net seem to have a healthy dose of "It's our turn to be lunatics now" and I have no time for moonbattery other than to occasionally mock it.

I agree. Indeed, LGF is one of the few blogs I visit faithfully, that discusses contemporary events. From 2000 to 2008 many of (what some here would call) "lefty" blogs were unbearable, though there were a few (the more technical-subjected minded) that were tolerable.

Of greatest disappointment is what has happened to PJM, and many of their writers. I was hoping to find a blog that was more "wonky" than a place like LGF, but that wasn't dominated by many of the traditional "liberal" bloggers and writers, where there could be deep dialogue between people of different opinions. However, since the election especially PJM has gone downhill (and now pushes ID proponents and even 'nirthers.)

Even reading VDH's latest entry over on PJM leaves me with a very cold feel - he's becoming a bitter old man right in front of our eyes.

105 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:33:08pm

re: #103 iceweasel

It was pertinent to a point I was trying to make at the time- a little further digging would've revaled some archived pictures of J. Hoffa Jr. and Kos himself posing for photos at YearlyKos.

/Reassuring to know that's where my union dues will be going if I sign on with one of the railways or trucking companies full-time.

106 Jack Burton  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:36:05pm

re: #104 freetoken

True about PJM, but so far I haven't seen Bill Whittle succumb to crazy. I hope he will either anchor them in reality, or will go independent again.

107 freetoken  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:36:22pm

re: #102 iceweasel


Who are the Theonomists and what's this concept? It sounds interesting and I've never heard of it.


Theonomy.

They're not exactly popular here, and indeed if you try to link (directly) to any of North's stuff Stinky will step in.

108 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:41:37pm

re: #83 Floral Giraffe

I hope it will work when you try it out. I can't see straight at this point, either!

109 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:43:05pm

re: #98 ArchangelMichael

During the Bush administration, some of my lefty friends became unbearable to be around and I had to distance myself from them (they went especially ape shit over the Iraq war, so I was antisocial from about 2003 to 2008). I'm seeing hints of this from my right-of-center friends now, not as bad as the lefties were but it's slowly creeping out. I fear that I might have to go through this again. I'm going to try to avoid it or see if I can get into 'agree to disagree' treaties with them if need be.

As far as blogs go. LGF is only vaguely politically related blog I go to now. All of the "Conservatives" on the net seem to have a healthy dose of "It's our turn to be lunatics now" and I have no time for moonbattery other than to occasionally mock it.

I hear you. About the friends and about LGF.

It's funny; I read a fuck-ton (I believe that is a proper unit of measurement) of lefty blogs, some of the wonkish sort, and many that exist purely to snark and mock the fringe right-- which is where I get a lot of my familiarity with the very fringe right side of the spectrum. I've always enjoyed mocking them, but of late there really is this disturbing tone creeping in, as free token notes. I'm finding it less funny and more scary. There's an awful lot of rage out there.

Right now I recommend memeorandum as the best way to see what everyone's talking about and get a snapshot of several different kinds of sources from all over the spectrum, but I don't think there's any better place to discuss politics online than LGF. I can't even be bothered elsewhere, despite the fact that my opinions would be a lot more mainstream on a lefty/progressive blog than here.

110 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:47:29pm

G'nite, Lizards! Sweet dreams.

I am off to, uh, I think it's called 'sleep'....not quite sure! ;) I am only 47 minutes past my goal of 2 AM.

111 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:48:37pm

re: #104 freetoken

I agree. Indeed, LGF is one of the few blogs I visit faithfully, that discusses contemporary events. From 2000 to 2008 many of (what some here would call) "lefty" blogs were unbearable, though there were a few (the more technical-subjected minded) that were tolerable.

Of greatest disappointment is what has happened to PJM, and many of their writers. I was hoping to find a blog that was more "wonky" than a place like LGF, but that wasn't dominated by many of the traditional "liberal" bloggers and writers, where there could be deep dialogue between people of different opinions. However, since the election especially PJM has gone downhill (and now pushes ID proponents and even 'nirthers.)

Even reading VDH's latest entry over on PJM leaves me with a very cold feel - he's becoming a bitter old man right in front of our eyes.

PJM is a wreck. Really unbelievable what's happened to it.

It's kind of interesting that liberals have come to dominate the blogosphere and the internet in the same way that the right dominates talk radio. It's bad news for the right though in the long run if they don't get it together.

VDH's latest entry-- is that the one where he's telling some long story about his farm when he was 26?
(i have some opinions on that and on him, but i need a drink-- brb)

112 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:50:10pm

re: #110 NY Nana

G'nite, NY Nana.

113 freetoken  Wed, Jun 10, 2009 11:57:51pm

re: #111 iceweasel


VDH's latest entry-- is that the one where he's telling some long story about his farm when he was 26?

No. The latest piece is about him becoming... well, becoming a full time skeptic/cynic about all things in the news, politics, and science.

Too bad really, because while I might not agree with him on everything I do believe he has worthwhile ideas to share, on comparing contemporary events with that of Ancient Greece. However, over the last year or so he seems to be working harder and harder to ingratiate himself to what I would call the HotAir/MMalkin crowd (which IMO have now become just one small step aware from the freepers.)

Don't worry about being in the minority here... many of us are oddballs. This place is a haven for polyglots and polymaths...

114 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 12:13:33am

re: #113 freetoken

No. The latest piece is about him becoming... well, becoming a full time skeptic/cynic about all things in the news, politics, and science.

Too bad really, because while I might not agree with him on everything I do believe he has worthwhile ideas to share, on comparing contemporary events with that of Ancient Greece. However, over the last year or so he seems to be working harder and harder to ingratiate himself to what I would call the HotAir/MMalkin crowd (which IMO have now become just one small step aware from the freepers.)

I'll check it out. I've had the same feelings about VDH for a while: that he's pandering to the HotAir/Malkin crowd (and I agree wityh you that they're rapidly becoming indistinguishable from Freepers. I blame MM in particular; everything she writes is written with a permanant sneer, a deeply resentful and nasty tone.)

I get almost annoyed with VDH, because he is a smart guy who potentially has worthwhile ideas and insights, and it's almost like he's allowing himself to be used as a sort of intellectual figleaf for these people -- a tiny bit of erudition covering up their shame.

115 freetoken  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 12:19:29am

re: #114 iceweasel

[...] and it's almost like he's allowing himself to be used as a sort of intellectual figleaf for these people

Interesting way to put it.

116 zulubaby  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 1:43:16am

I love and adore Michael Connelly. He's one of my favourite authors.

117 zulubaby  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 1:44:05am

No Harry Bosch?! Boo.

118 davesax  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 5:40:53am

Zulubaby! I can't believe it's you!

Good to see you!

119 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 6:02:05am

re: #19 iceweasel

It also provides a window not just into Mormonism generally, but the very specific individual psychologies of splinter groups, fanatics, zealots, violent extremists. Lessons that are useful right now not merely insofar as they apply to these 2 particular guys from this one splinter group.

i really need to reread it.

This book was one reason I could never get comfortable with Romney as president regardless how smooth and smart he seems. Specifically he once made the comment that he could never reject his "fathers" or words to that effect. My question to him would have been which of the fathers in this book is he referring to, and does he really believe this fable about golden tablets?

120 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 6:14:33am

Charles,
Keep in mind that reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" would be like reading the History of Little Green Footballs, by Keith Olbermann, with a forward by Pam at AtlasShrugs, and published by the New York Times. You would hardly recognize yourself or your website.

Here is an LDS review of "Banner." by noted historian Richard Turley.

This book has an extreme political agenda, and the examples of LDS people make enormous contributions to science, and math, and education in general are legion.

And Law
[Link: www.deseretnews.com...]

And Harvard Business Professors

And Stanford Business Professors (one now an Apostle)

[Eyring]was on the faculty at the Graduate School of Business at Stanford University from 1962 to 1971. He holds a B.S. degree in Physics from the University of Utah and Master of Business Administration and Doctor of Business Administration degrees from Harvard University.

And Nuclear Physicists, State Supreme Court Judges, Pulitzer Prize Winners and many many more. Check this list for the

Ranking of the 100 Most Influential Mormons in American History

Philo Farnsworth - inventor of the television
Joseph Smith, Jr. - founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Brigham Young - 2nd President/Prophet of the Church; led Saints to Utah
Marvin Harris - inventor of the transistor radio
Alan Ashton - inventor of the modern word processor
Nolan Bushnell - Father of Video Games; inventor of "Pong"
Harvey Fletcher - inventor of the hearing aid, stereophonic sound, the audiometer, more than 20 other inventions
William Clayton - inventor of the odometer

And here is a story from today: Welfare Efforts Bring LDS and Jews together

Picture the following possibility, as posed by one of a handful of prominent Jewish rabbis in Salt Lake City this week to visit leaders and operations of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

"We can come together to use Welfare Square and facilities there to have Jews and Mormons standing side by side, engaged in a project to help humanity," said Rabbi John Borak of Los Angeles, one of five visiting rabbis from across the country.

He and Rabbi Brad Hirschfield of New York City were making a second call to LDS headquarters in less than six months. Both cited powerful first-visit experiences as catalysts to continue discussions regarding future interfaith cooperative efforts.

Rabbi Hirschfield recalled a statement from Jim Goodrich, manager of Welfare Square: "We are taught that you go to the temple to make covenants, and you come to Welfare Square to keep them."

Saying the statement moved him to tears, Rabbi Hirschfield added, "And the test of the covenants we make is whether or not they actually benefit other people beyond our community. And it was clear to me that I was in the presence of masters of that teaching, and so why not would I return? For me, this is a beginning of shared discovery of how to strengthen that capacity in two communities."

121 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 6:15:50am

I still read the old-fashioned way and I started reading Road Dogs a couple of days ago. Pretty good so far, but I might have to re-read LaBrava, Out of Sight and Riding The Rap since characters from those books are in it.

I recently started reading Connelly. I finished the first Bosch book, The Black Echo earlier this week. I plan to read all of the Bosch books in the order they were published. My favorite Connelly book so far is Void Moon.

My favorite crime writer is George Pelecanos. I love his books that take place in and around DC, and his work on The Wire was excellent.

122 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 6:21:56am

re: #68 Silvergirl

A couple of books I recently read and liked:

1) Amplified: Fiction from Leading Alt-Country, Indie Rock, Blues and Folk Musicians

Short stories. Some are really a different look at life through the imaginative minds of musicians. I still have a couple left to go before I'm finished..

That sounds like something I should read. Do you ever read Oxford American? Their annual southern music issue is always great, and this year's features a two cd compilation.

123 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 6:23:27am

re: #69 JohnAdams

Speaking of good reads, I've recently discovered the spy novels of Daniel Silva, many of which feature a main character from Israeli intelligence. Silva's first, which I'm reading now, is about British/German intelligence officers trying to crack the details about D-Day. It's an excellent and timely story.

He has a new Gabriel Allon book coming out this summer. I've read all of his books.

124 Zimriel  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 7:16:04am

re: #120 DistantThunder

Charles,
Keep in mind that reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" would be like reading the History of Little Green Footballs, by Keith Olbermann, with a forward by Pam at AtlasShrugs, and published by the New York Times. You would hardly recognize yourself or your website.

Here is an LDS review of "Banner." by noted historian Richard Turley.

I call unethical conduct on your part.

"Noted historian", wherever it appears, is always code for "someone who claims to write history, whose origin I want to hide". Never, ever use the term "noted historian" in a debate.

Turley works for the Church and his title there is "Church Historian". There is no such thing as an "Church Historian" any more than "Party Historian"; this term is an oxymoron. The title signals that he is anything but a historian. His duty is to the Church and he finds the facts to fit his narrative. His proper title is "LDS propagandist".

Your handwaving afterward about how wonderful individual Mormons are, I'm also calling out as attempts to evade the issue. None of these Mormons now excuse or - more importantly - explain what happened in history.

125 KansasMom  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 7:16:42am

I think I sold my sis-in-law on a Kindle last night. By chance we are reading the same novel. She has some trouble with the vocabulary (English is her 2nd language) so she carts a dictionary around with her while she reads. I showed her the dictionary feature on the Kindle, then we compared with size and weight of the Kindle to her 650-page book. It made an impression!
I'm not going to say what the book was....its just mind-candy, fun reading.
I'm scanning upthread and jotting down ideas for my next few reads. I think book threads are my new favorite!

My favorites (at the moment anyway):
I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou
(I know most of you aren't fond of Angelou, but its still an incredible book and I'm sticking up for it.)
Gospel by Wilton Barnhardt

126 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 7:20:46am

re: #120 DistantThunder

Here is a much more dispassionate look at the LDS faith by a (non-LDS) Sociology professor at Baylor, Rodney Stark. "The Rise of Mormonism." (Columbia University Press)


Rodney Stark is University Professor of the Social Sciences at Baylor University. He is the author of more than twenty books, including For the Glory of God and Exploring the Religious Life. (Co-author)Reid L. Neilson is the author and editor of several books on Mormonism. He is currently a doctoral candidate in religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
127 Zimriel  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 7:24:10am

re: #57 Pvt Bin Jammin

I absolutely loved that site. What a shame.

I rarely found any use for The American Thinker. It's been an outpost of long-winded, pseudo-intellectual hackery from inception. Look at its articles on creationism.

The only aspect that surprises me about this, is that Pam beat out Fjordman for the privilege of posting there.

128 Zimriel  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 7:33:44am

re: #126 DistantThunder

Here is a much more dispassionate look at the LDS faith by a (non-LDS) Sociology professor at Baylor, Rodney Stark. "The Rise of Mormonism." (Columbia University Press)

Okay, that citation is better.

Although, it's still not quite a look at Mormonism as such; but an attempt to apply, to Mormonism, a sociological theory about how religions spread.

129 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 7:43:18am

re: #124 Zimriel

I call unethical conduct on your part.

"Noted historian", wherever it appears, is always code for "someone who claims to write history, whose origin I want to hide". Never, ever use the term "noted historian" in a debate.

Turley works for the Church and his title there is "Church Historian". There is no such thing as an "Church Historian" any more than "Party Historian"; this term is an oxymoron. The title signals that he is anything but a historian. His duty is to the Church and he finds the facts to fit his narrative. His proper title is "LDS propagandist".

Your handwaving afterward about how wonderful individual Mormons are, I'm also calling out as attempts to evade the issue. None of these Mormons now excuse or - more importantly - explain what happened in history.

First of all, i'm an ethics educator, and so I would never do anything unethical. LDS history is being throughly researched including by projects at major universities. Including Harvard. In addition:

Turley, an accomplished author who currently serves as the president of the Genealogical Society of Utah, said that in his new position “attention will be given to the way Church history is collected and preserved, not only in the United States but also worldwide.”

Today’s announcement follows on the heels of the creation of The Church Historian’s Press just two weeks ago. The new imprint will publish works related to the Church’s origin and growth, such as The Joseph Smith Papers, a documentary series that will eventually comprise 25–30 volumes.

The construction of the 230,000-square-foot Church History Library in downtown Salt Lake City is further evidence of the Church’s desire to make its history available to scholars and the public. The new library, to be completed in the spring of 2009, will include a collection of 270,000 books, pamphlets and magazines, as well as 240,000 original unpublished records.

The LDS church welcomes independent research on it's history. Turley's points can be verified. He was only recently made Church Historian, a new position.

“Richard Turley is uniquely suited to make a very significant contribution to the collection, preservation and publishing of Church history," Church historian Marlin K. Jensen said. "He has a base of historical and doctrinal knowledge that qualifies him to be the assistant Church historian and recorder. He also has the respect and credibility of those outside the Church who are scholars and academics working in the area of Mormon studies and Mormon history.”

Note: Association of Contemporary Church Historians

130 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 7:45:41am

re: #129 DistantThunder

Link to the above quote:

131 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 7:58:52am

re: #2 Tarkus289

Alouette, just for you.

Arrrggggh! Did not see this until this morning. I am in the Eastern time zone. :(

132 doppelganglander  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 8:00:01am

re: #120 DistantThunder

I think you're getting defensive over nothing. "Under the Banner of Heaven" is an excellent book. Have you read it? It makes it very clear that the individuals involved are not mainstream Mormons. You didn't really need to mount a defense of the church. We have many LDS posters and I've never detected any bigotry towards the church here.

133 Zimriel  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 8:23:03am

re: #42 Silvergirl

I would say you definitely do have an interest in Mormons.

I know of Porter Rockwell. What do you think of him? I haven't read a book on him, but saw something about him on TV once which led me to a little research.

I found this from Porter Rockwell: a review of Richard Abanes's book, "A Dancer/Journalist's Anti-Mormon Diatribe (via the Wikipedia on Richard Abanes). It comes from the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS), no less. (For a debunking of FARMS scholarship, c.f. Vogel's book above.)

Rockwell starts out trying to dig up dirt on Abanes himself. Ad hominem - always a sign...

Rockwell then makes all manner of bogus arguments: for instance, his review argues against the proposition that Brigham Young was a theocratic tyrant, by commenting that Young faced opposition and ranted against it on his pulpit (265):

what was the source of the “murmuring” that makes up much of Latter-day Saint history? If the Saints were so locked into a totalitarian system that they were forced to obey every whim of their evil leaders, why is it that the sermons are filled with calls for the Saints to be more obedient, to observe the Sabbath day, to stop backbiting, to be true to their covenants? Apparently, some of them did pretty much what they wanted to


This is a laughable non sequitur if I've ever seen one.

Rockwell's review complains repeatedly about "bloated endnotes" (262, 265), and complains that Abanes refers to anti-Mormon websites (265). Well, yeah, but Abanes cites them as a resource, primarily; there are plenty of primary sources here too. Rockwell wants you to think that Abanes is just parroting propaganda.

Rockwell looks like a hack to me.

134 Pupdawg  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 8:37:30am

re: #58 JohnAdams

How does he get away with the comment about Palin's 14 year old daughter getting knocked up by a ballplayer? People knock Fox news, but where else has it been covered?

Here's a novel idea and suggestion for his network...fire him!

135 firepilot  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 8:47:36am

Under the Banner of Heaven is an excellent certainly not the horrible book the LDS church makes it out to be. The LDS church criticized it before they had even seen the book.

Its actually rather fair and even handed, and is not out to make Mormons out to be bad people. Its theme is about why do people do bad things in the name of their religion, and uses some examples of FLDS activities, some more recent murders, and the mountain meadows massacre to explore that idea.

It does go into some about the LDS church leadership having not been that forthcoming in the past about some of those events, because such things were not "faith promoting", but the book is not some slam against Mormons.

136 Irenicum  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 8:50:48am

re: #36 iceweasel

Ice weasel, I think this is one you'd like. I just got a copy of Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement from the Margins to the Mainstream by Leonard Zeskind. I haven't started it yet, but it looks fabulous. I too have been interested in these whackos for many years. In this book you'll see just about the whole cast of characters.

137 Irenicum  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 8:54:35am

A great book that deals in part with what's known as the "Jerusalem effect" is The End of Days by Gershom Gorenberg. The subtitle is, Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount. It's scary reading, but well worthwhile!

138 martinsmithy  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 9:20:34am

I heartily recommend Under the Banner of Heaven. A great book on the origins of Latter Day Saint-dom and its current radical offshoots (rejected by the mainstream church, to its credit).

My favorite "revelation," - Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, was, like many men, attracted to lots of women. He interpreted this as a sign from God that he should be polygamous!

139 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 10:15:44am

There are other books to read, besides all the 'Thomas The Tank Engine' books?

Who knew? My youngest grandchild, a nearly 3-year old grandson, has so many that they almost need a room of their own. It seems that in his world, they are the only books that exist, except possibly a bunch of books about diggers!

140 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 10:26:07am

re: #136 Irenicum

Ice weasel, I think this is one you'd like. I just got a copy of Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement from the Margins to the Mainstream by Leonard Zeskind. I haven't started it yet, but it looks fabulous. I too have been interested in these whackos for many years. In this book you'll see just about the whole cast of characters.

Oh thank you so much Irenicum! I was just reading some Amazon reviews of that last night! I had just read someone who said that book was pretty much the definitive history of white nationalism and was going to wind up being the textbook on it for years to come. I'll check this and the other one you mention--
So many books, so little time! Can't wait to hear your thoughts on it.

141 KansasMom  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 10:30:11am

re: #139 NY Nana

There are other books to read, besides all the 'Thomas The Tank Engine' books?

Who knew? My youngest grandchild, a nearly 3-year old grandson, has so many that they almost need a room of their own. It seems that in his world, they are the only books that exist, except possibly a bunch of books about diggers!

Wait until he gets old enough for the Magic Treehouse series. Those books are really inspiring a love of reading in my son, he can't get enough of them!
(And they are offered on the Kindle, which just makes them extra-cool to him.)

142 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 10:42:14am

re: #141 KansasMom

Thanks! I saved your post. This little guy adores his books, and also has so many Thomas trains, etc., that there is nowhere to walk! One of our sons also adored trains, as does NY Grampa, but the little guy outdoes them! I wonder if this is genetic!

Whenever our 2 little granddaughters are here for a family get together? He has a few of his Thomas books with him, and the 9-year old reads them to him. I get the biggest kick out of watching them.

I am so glad that books are still important to most kids. And it seems that your son is and will be a book lover! Fantastic!

143 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 11:20:23am

re: #120 DistantThunder

The book is about the history, and there is an official LDS rebuttal in the book. A weak rebuttal.

Nobody says they are all bad people, but that doesn't change the history, nor the absurdity of the "revelation" it is based on.

144 brain-washed sheeple  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 12:08:46pm

re: #132 doppelganglander

You didn't really need to mount a defense of the church. We have many LDS posters and I've never detected any bigotry towards the church here.

re: #138 martinsmithy

My favorite "revelation," - Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, was, like many men, attracted to lots of women. He interpreted this as a sign from God that he should be polygamous!

Nope, no bigotry towards Mormons on this site... carry on, people.

145 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jun 11, 2009 4:50:17pm

re: #144 brain-washed sheeple

Typical attitude of some: Can't tell the difference between bigotry and critique.

146 zulubaby  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:26:31am

re: #118 davesax

Hello darling, how are you?!

147 IanTheTerrible  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 5:25:22pm

Under the Banner of Heaven is simply an incredible book. You want to understand "violent faith" of any stripe, you read this book. As *possibly* the only half Jewish, half Mormon in existence, it had a special resonance with me. But I'm a full atheist, baby!


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Calexico - End of the World With You (Live on KEXP) kexp.org presents Calexico performing "End Of The World With You" live in the KEXP studio. Recorded June 19, 2018. Host: MorganAudio Engineers: Martin H. Gonzalez & Julian MartlewCameras: Jim Beckmann, Alaia D'Alessandro, Scott Holpainen & Justin WilmoreEditor: Jim Beckmann ...
Thanos
5 days, 4 hours ago
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LSD - Thunderclouds (Official Audio) Ft. Sia, Diplo, Labrinth Labrinth, Sia & Diplo present LSD - Thunderclouds (Official Audio) Stream "Thunderclouds" now: smarturl.itSpotify: smarturl.itiTunes: smarturl.itApple Music: smarturl.itAmazon Music: smarturl.it Learn more about LSD and sign up for the official mailing list: droppinglsd.com Lyrics: All I need is oneOne ...
Thanos
5 days, 4 hours ago
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Half•alive - Still Feel. [Music VIDEO] half•alive’s music video for ‘still feel.’ Save on Spotify : spoti.fi Apple Music : apple.coSoundcloud : SoundCloud find half•alive on… Instagram: instagr.amTwitter: @halfalivecoSpotify: spoti.fiSoundcloud: SoundCloudSite: halfalive.co Directed / Edited / Colored by : Josh TaylorDirector of Photography : Ryan ...
Thanos
5 days, 4 hours ago
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Bands and Artists I LoveSuperorganism. Your text to link...
The Artist Formerly Known as Irenicum
6 days, 23 hours ago
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Dave Grohl - Play (Official Video) PLAY more at play.roswellfilms.com Pre-order limited edition vinyl bundles and stream the song: smarturl.it “PLAY” by Dave Grohl celebrates the rewards and challenges of dedicating one’s life to playing and mastering a musical instrument. Part one opens with narrated ...
Thanos
1 week ago
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The Seshen - Distant Heart (Live on KEXP) kexp.org presents The Seshen performing "Distant Heart" live at The Little London Plane during Upstream Music Fest. Recorded June 1, 2018. Host: Kevin ColeAudio Engineer: Kevin SuggsCameras: Jim Beckmann, Alaia D'Alessandro & Justin WilmoreDirector: Scott HolpainenEditor: Alaia D'Alessandro kexp.orgtheseshen.comupstreammusicfest.com ...
Thanos
1 week, 5 days ago
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Retrograde PresidentProfit at any cost. American dream. President Trump. Blind destruction. BBC News: The Trump administration has overturned bans on the use of pesticides linked to declining bee populations and the cultivation of genetically modified crops in US national wildlife refuges. ...
Dom
2 weeks ago
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David Crosby and Jason Isbell ‘Ohio’----Newport
Thanos
2 weeks ago
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Activist Publishes 11,000 Private DMs Between Wikileaks and Its Supporters The DMs concern a particular group chat between the official Wikileaks account and several supporters. In the chat—dubbed “Wikileaks +10” due to number of participants—Wikileaks would coordinate smear campaigns against the group’s rivals, including journalists, according to the DMs. ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 4 days ago
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Capital Cities - Levitate (Visualizer)Music video by Capital Cities performing Levitate. © 2018 Lazy Hooks, LLC, under exclusive license to UMG Recordings, Inc. vevo.ly
Thanos
2 weeks, 5 days ago
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