Von Brunn: Leftist?

Blogosphere • Views: 4,266

Some classy argument tactics from people still seething about the DHS “right wing extremism” report, and pissed off at me because I wouldn’t join the chorus: The James W. von Brunn “Thing” (UPDATED) | Democrat = Socialist.

F-ck you Charles.. sorry, that’s all I’ve got to say about that.

Amazingly, the talking point on which some bloggers seem to have settled is that Von Brunn was actually a leftist — despite a lifelong affiliation with causes and ideologies that are far more associated with the extreme right, at that point out there on the fringes where it crosses over into cloud cuckoo land.

You can’t make “right wing extremism” vanish by playing word games and redefining it out of existence, sorry. Von Brunn is a creature of the right.

It’s obvious he’s a radical antisemite. Some claim that because so much antisemitism shows up on the left these days, this makes Von Brunn a leftist — but this argument ignores the historical fact of right wing antisemitism in America.

Von Brunn is a right wing paleo-kook, deeply antisemitic in the way that Father Coughlin was and Pat Buchanan still is. He’s attracted to Nazism for its authoritarianism and its “master race” ideology, not its socialist-influenced economics.

Von Brunn’s “manifesto” makes it very clear that he had nothing but hatred for Marxism or socialism. He’s a pure racist who believes white people should never mix genes with the “lesser races;” there are long passages in the essay in which he rants against the evils of “miscegenation.” And he’s a big believer in international banking conspiracies, the Illuminati, and all of those other infinite holes of kookosity.

There’s a claim going around some blogs that Von Brunn is a registered Democrat, but no one has presented proof. It started with one sentence at a blog with nothing to back it up — no links or images of voter registration cards — and should be considered highly suspect.

Jump to bottom

544 comments
1 Gang of One  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:30:31am

Thought this settled -- extreme right wing nut job.

2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:30:34am

I couldn't care less if he is Leftist or Rightist. This is just a distraction and "No True Scotsman" BS. He is someone that hates. That is all that matters.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:31:14am

Yes, Virginia, there are Right-wing Extremists. There is good and bad in the world, and some of the bad people will say they believe in the same things you do. Get over it.

4 Gang of One  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:31:23am

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

I couldn't care less if he is Leftist or Rightist. This is just a distraction and "No True Scotsman" BS. He is someone that hates. That is all that matters.

True dat, pay my post no mind, that's me being a somewhat slow today.

5 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:31:32am

He was an extremist. His associations appear to be "right wing."

But mostly, he was the most hate-curdled creature.

People sending Charles hate-mail might take a moment to think about that.

6 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:32:29am

Go far enough left or right and you end up in a cesspit of Jew-haters.

7 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:32:49am
Von Brunn’s “manifesto” makes it very clear that he had nothing but hatred for Marxism or socialism.

Fascists hate Marxists.

8 gregb  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:33:31am

I think he's off the scale either way. That puts him squarely in the kook category. I think some of the pushback I've seen is simply some media attempts at blanket demonization through clever word association.

9 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:33:39am

He was clearly an extreme anti-semite. That position usually is associated with the extreme right. I'm not sure why anyone would be annoyed by such a characterization unless they themselves share it.

10 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:33:44am

Very well said.

11 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:33:44am

re: #6 Kosh's Shadow

Go far enough left or right and you end up in a cesspit of Jew-haters.

Unfortunately sometimes it's a short trip.

12 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:34:38am

re: #4 Gang of One

True dat, pay my post no mind, that's me being a somewhat slow today.

Your post, sadly, is relevant. There are people actively trying to not have any association with von Brunner.

13 gander  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:34:43am

He's a Hate-Wing extremist.

14 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:34:48am

I am a self proclaimed chicken wing extremest- my manifesto is that my new 12 pack of B** will be killed tonight

15 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:35:13am

re: #7 Sharmuta

Fascists hate Marxists.

Yeah, it was the way that the Marxists kept hogging the gold medal stand at the Screw-Up-My-Country Olympics.

(It was close, though. Photo finish.)

16 alegrias  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:35:16am

Reportedly, he hated Fox News' "Bill O'Reilly" Factor show.

17 jorline  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:35:21am

Von Brunn's a Leftist when monkeys fly out of my butt.

18 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:35:35am

forgot
/ sorry

19 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:35:55am

re: #9 quickjustice

He was clearly an extreme anti-semite. That position usually is associated with the extreme right. I'm not sure why anyone would be annoyed by such a characterization unless they themselves share it.

Well that was true in the old days, but the same can be said of the far left now a days. But this guy was clearly to the right-but way way way over on the wacko fringe right.

20 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:37:12am

Clearly this won't be settled until we see his Nirth Certificate!

21 Red Pencil  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:38:17am

What I ask people like this, is he leftist because he's evil and wrong, or maybe is he evil and wrong because he's a leftist? Why is it necessary for some to prove that whoever is evil and wrong must be on the Left?

Can't we just recognize evil as evil?

Why do these people capitalize SOCIALIST and leave "National" in normal case?

22 jorline  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:38:51am

re: #20 Kenneth

Clearly this won't be settled until we see his Nirth Certificate!

It's buried on the grassy knoll.

23 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:38:59am

It's become frustrating for me to see so many arguments rely on deflecting attention away from the right by pointing to the left. Instead of dealing with the less savory fringe on our side, folks would rather take the time to perform mental gymnastics and contort and deflect. Everything politically bad is from the left just isn't an intellectually honest position.

Frankly- I blame some of this on Jonah Goldberg for his revisionism on fascism.

24 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:39:05am

re: #20 Kenneth

Clearly this won't be settled until we see his Nirth Certificate!

Well I can clear up his war record:

Navy records show that while in service von Brunn received the American Defense Medal; the American Area Commendation Ribbon; the Asiatic-Pacific Area medal with one star; the Philippine Liberation Ribbon; the World War II Victory Medal, and a European Theater of Operations medal with three stars.

[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

25 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:39:20am
26 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:39:26am
27 Last Mohican  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:39:40am

re: #9 quickjustice

He was clearly an extreme anti-semite. That position usually is associated with the extreme right. I'm not sure why anyone would be annoyed by such a characterization unless they themselves share it.

Usually? It certainly is, in the minds of the majority of American Jews, who mindlessly cast their votes for a presidential candidate who was a proud member of an antisemitic hate group. They did so on the incorrect theory that "all right-wingers, and only right-wingers, hate Jews." [I say this as an American Jew].

But I think they're wrong. There's plenty of Jew-hatred on the far-left, and the far-right, and even closer to the middle. But it's totally absurd for anyone to try to associate Von Brunn with the left. And I agree with your point: to paraphrase the point that Rudy Giuliani made at the 2008 Republican convention, calling Von Brunn a right-wing extremists is insulting to nobody other than right-wing extremists.

28 albusteve  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:40:11am

doin the Hokey Pokey again....that's what it's all about

29 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:40:28am

Many on the right seem to have a childish urge to turn lefty tactics against them. This kind of word game is a perfect example, leftists excel at the manipulation of terminology. The problem with this nonsense is that it will not work if you don't have the media to cover for you, which is not going to happen in this case. Leave the junior high word games to the left and the media, objective reality is our beat.

30 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:40:29am

He was an anti-Semite first and foremost.
Everything else flows from that.
His associations include white supremacists and segregationists.
His associations include racists.

Some of those are extreme right wingers.

Some of his other pet theories are those of the left, including 9/11 Trooferism and that Obama is hiding his background (both have crossover appeal on the fringes, but Trooferism is far more widespread than that).

Still, trying to classify the hate in Brunn's case isn't going to help prevent further incidences, since he doesn't meet the classic profiles as proffered by the DHS report (the one that focused solely on right wing extremism).

After all, he was more than 60 years separated from the US Navy in WWII, and the report indicated that the threat was most likely from those who had served in the Gulf War and forward.

There's plenty of hate in the world and in the US to go around. Far too much of it starts and ends with anti-Semitism. Perhaps the next DHS report should start with that as a central thesis and use that as a prolifing aspect. I'm sure that they'd find far more utility from that than signaling that former or current US servicemembers were likely to join with extremist groups and engage in terrorism.

31 Red Pencil  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:40:34am

And another thing

Why must some of these rightward "thinkers" skew all of history to see a good=right, bad=left dichotomy everywhere, when most of history happened before there was even a left/right dichotomy?

/I blame Marxist dialectics for this, perhaps they are unwitting victims of "SOCIALISTS" themselves...

32 tfc3rid  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:42:05am

Who cares what he is... He represents no one but his deranged mind... He's a criminal. Period.

Why do we have to label, label, label. He's a nutlog. He's a racist and he acted on his derangement. Other than that, I could care less.

33 MJ  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:42:46am

The "argument" that Von Brunn was really a Leftist is based on the fact that The Weekly Standard, a conservative publication, was supposedly on his hit-list.
However, what this argument falls flat once you realize that the Editor of the Weekly Standard is Jewish.
Von Brunn shares in common with Leftists the belief that "Neo-Cons", a code-word for Jews, controlled foreign policy under Bush as well the belief that Zionists/Jews control the media.
The Left has adopted some of the Far Right's antisemitism...there is no doubt about that. However, Von Brunn is classic Far Right antisemite.

34 blangwort  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:43:02am

Whether he is a far-right wing or far-left wing nut is almost irrelevant.

The fact: he is a wing nut. Both the Left and the Right have their violent idiots. I'm sick of hearing people say stuff suggesting the left is all about caring for your fellow countryman --so they can't be evil. Oh REALLY? Let's not forget what that spawned: Communism, the Weather Underground, and so on.

At the end of the day, the middle ground is where the peaceful coexistence is, and the extremes are where you find the violent behavior.

It is extremism of both sides that we should watch for. And, sorry Janet Napolitano, we should guard against extremists, not just right wing extremists.

35 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:43:10am

re: #32 tfc3rid

Who cares what he is... He represents no one but his deranged mind... He's a criminal. Period.

Why do we have to label, label, label. He's a nutlog. He's a racist and he acted on his derangement. Other than that, I could care less.

Hey my friend how are ya doing. Seems like both our teams suck. Although maybe yours more than mine?

36 Baier  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:43:39am

If this guy is "left" or "right" it doesn't matter. This guy was so off the left-right chart it's a silly argument to pin him down. An innocent man is dead, no matter what ideological wing Von Brunn is supposedly from.

37 subsailor68  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:43:48am

Here's Jonah Goldberg's take on Von Brunn:

Goldberg on Von Brunn

I suppose you can agree or disagree with Goldberg on the particulars, but it's hard to argue with this observation:

Now we have James von Brunn. He is an 88-year-old loon, considered a dangerous nut even within the dangerous-nut community.

And this:

...von Brunn is the kind of fanatic the zombies who talk to themselves at the bus station would give a wide berth.

38 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:43:55am

He's a FAR RIGHT WINGBAT
That stated, I think it's disengenuous of anyone to tie him into the memo as "proof positive". This guy was off the rails WAY before there even was a DHS, let aoone a memo

39 Kragar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:44:16am

Everyone is scrambling to distance themselves from this shithead, but the facts speak for themselves.

40 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:44:47am
41 Steffan  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:45:08am

re: #12 FurryOldGuyJeans

Your post, sadly, is relevant. There are people actively trying to not have any association with von Brunner.

That's about the size of it. Nobody in their right mind wants to claim association with this asshat.

DC doesn't have the death penalty. If they put him in the general population, I'll give odds he'll be somebody's bitch before the end of the first month.

/we can dream, right?

42 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:45:24am

re: #32 tfc3rid

Who cares what he is... He represents no one but his deranged mind... He's a criminal. Period.

Why do we have to label, label, label. He's a nutlog. He's a racist and he acted on his derangement. Other than that, I could care less.

I care. He can't be on the right. The right is full of g-d fearing family people what wouldn't even think of ever doing something like this.
/////

43 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:45:26am

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Everyone is scrambling to distance themselves from this shithead, but the facts speak for themselves.

And this nasty bastard gets shot in the head and hangs on? I guess it is true that good die young?

44 caution  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:45:50am

Charles,

I'm of the opinion it's a circle, not a line, and at the lunatic fringe (on the bottom of the circle) is a pool of crud that in spite of being ultra far right or ultra far left, they have pretty much the same agenda. However, to further flounder by claiming this particular nutjob was "left" just shows how silly the right has become.

45 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:45:51am

re: #12 FurryOldGuyJeans

Your post, sadly, is relevant. There are people actively trying to not have any association with von Brunner.

Um...I can actually understand that. He's pretty repulsive.

I've been struggling through his rant. The man was unhinged with his hatred.

46 Wendya  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:45:59am

Von Brunn doesn't neatly fit into any classification.

I mentioned earlier that the typical left/right political spectrum that we all were taught doesn't withstand logic because it makes the assumption that more government = more liberty. If you draw a line and place on one side people who believe in more freedom and less government intervention and on the other side less freedom and more government intervention, the traditional democrats and republicans will be fairly close to the middle with anarchists on the far right and fascists, etc.. on the far left. The spectrum that is constantly trotted out that puts Fascism and Nazism on the right does not withstand logic.

47 tfc3rid  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:46:19am

re: #40 Iron Fist

I have no desire to be lumped in with the anti-Semites because I believe we should enforce our borders and have broad rights under the Second Amendment, but that is exactly what is going on.

Who is lumping you in... I have not read anything that that is happening nationally...

48 brookly red  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:46:34am

re: #41 Steffan

That's about the size of it. Nobody in their right mind wants to claim association with this asshat.

DC doesn't have the death penalty. If they put him in the general population, I'll give odds he'll be somebody's bitch before the end of the first month.

/we can dream, right?

uhhh, he's 80 something years old...

49 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:46:48am

re: #42 Walter L. Newton

I care. He can't be on the right. The right is full of g-d fearing family people what wouldn't even think of ever doing something like this.
/////

Hey Walter, people were asking about you.

50 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:46:56am
51 Hhar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:12am

Actually, he is a leftist. Take, for instance, the title of his website: "Holy Western Empire". It is an anagram for "We repel hymen riots." I don't know what clearer proof anyone needs.

52 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:14am

re: #43 Nevergiveup

And this nasty bastard gets shot in the head and hangs on? I guess it is true that good die young?

Should we start a von Brunn deathwatch, like the one we had a few years ago for Arafat? Or is it not appropriate for this more highly evolved LGF?

53 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:20am
54 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:31am

re: #49 Nevergiveup

Hey Walter, people were asking about you.

I didn't do it. Nope, never saw it, nope, can't say that I know him.
What's up?

55 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:41am

re: #38 sattv4u2

He's a FAR RIGHT WINGBAT
That stated, I think it's disengenuous of anyone to tie him into the memo as "proof positive". This guy was off the rails WAY before there even was a DHS, let aoone a memo

Indeed. One of the first things that got him on the law enforcement radar was the fact that he tried to take over the Federal Reserve to protest interest rates, a crime for which Brunn spent six years in federal prison. He blamed the Jews and blacks for his incarceration.

He was a convicted felon, and his violence predates the DHS, the DHS reports, and what we now consider conservative media. This guy was off the rails for decades.

That's not going to stop folks like Paul Krugman from trying to claim that this was the result of conservative media.

56 Last Mohican  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:49am

Charles, I'm glad you've dedicated a thread to this stupid idea that Von Brunn's actions are somehow to be blamed on "the left." Someone here actually posted a link to a Glenn Beck clip, in which his guest was trying to make this point.

I see this argument as a higher-order version of the No True Scotsman fallacy, in which one not only says "anyone who would do such a terrible thing must not be a Scotsman," but actually takes the next step and says "anyone who would do such a terrible thing is obviously an Englishman." Or whoever else it is that Scotsmen hate.

It's the same dismally flawed logic that is used by the huge fraction of the Muslim world that maintains that Jews must have been responsible for the 9/11 attacks, because, well, anyone who would do such a bad thing must not only be a Muslim, but must be a Jew.

57 Kragar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:48:01am

re: #43 Nevergiveup

And this nasty bastard gets shot in the head and hangs on? I guess it is true that good die young?

I'm still in favor of liquidating every asset this guy owns and presenting it to his victim's family and the Holocaust Museum. Place the photo over his bed and let him get a good look at how his life's work is going to use.

58 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:48:09am

re: #44 caution

Charles,

I'm of the opinion it's a circle, not a line, and at the lunatic fringe (on the bottom of the circle) is a pool of crud that in spite of being ultra far right or ultra far left, they have pretty much the same agenda. However, to further flounder by claiming this particular nutjob was "left" just shows how silly the right has become.

To paraphrase someone who useta' post here, the extreme left and extreme right meet at Jew-Hate Junction.

59 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:48:18am

re: #52 Shiplord Kirel

Should we start a von Brunn deathwatch, like the one we had a few years ago for Arafat? Or is it not appropriate for this more highly evolved LGF?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I ain't that highly evolved.

60 MightySkip  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:48:19am

I thought it wasn't so much that von Brunn is a right-wing extremist, it is that people are trying to portray him as your average conservative leaning person?

61 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:48:21am

re: #45 Dianna

Um...I can actually understand that. He's pretty repulsive.

I've been struggling through his rant. The man was unhinged with his hatred.

The thing is that the only reason some groups want to disassociate themselves from von Brunner is that they don't want the attention focused on them that the man's crime will bring. He kicked over the rock and the vermin are scrambling to get away from the light.

62 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:48:21am

re: #23 Sharmuta

Frankly- I blame some of this on Jonah Goldberg for his revisionism on fascism.

That's not entirely fair. Jonah Goldberg's book is quite balanced. The simplification of his thesis in the popular mind isn't his fault.

63 Hengineer  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:49:11am

re: #46 Wendya

Von Brunn doesn't neatly fit into any classification.

I mentioned earlier that the typical left/right political spectrum that we all were taught doesn't withstand logic because it makes the assumption that more government = more liberty. If you draw a line and place on one side people who believe in more freedom and less government intervention and on the other side less freedom and more government intervention, the traditional democrats and republicans will be fairly close to the middle with anarchists on the far right and fascists, etc.. on the far left. The spectrum that is constantly trotted out that puts Fascism and Nazism on the right does not withstand logic.

the best way I've seen it described is a 2-dimensional chart. Left to Right means liberal to conservative, while up-down means libertarian to authoritarian. One can be liberal while wanting less or more government.

I forget the website but if you look up "political spectrum quiz", you will see a website made by a guy who wants to be a Libertarian, but thinks the Libertarian party is WAAAAY out there, when in fact he just wants a little less government then we have now.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

I couldn't care less if he is Leftist or Rightist. This is just a distraction and "No True Scotsman" BS. He is someone that hates. That is all that matters.

He is someone who murdered a museum guard in cold blood, as said guard stood between him and unarmed people. That is all that matters.

65 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:49:35am

re: #50 buzzsawmonkey

how the nut turns

Sounds like a whacked-out Internet soap opera.

66 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:49:55am

re: #55 lawhawk

...That's not going to stop folks like Paul Krugman from trying to claim that this was the result of conservative media.

Oh bullshit. I've met people like this, WAY before we had a lot of conservative media. These completely against EVERYTHING nut cases, who starts with the Jews and blames the whole shape of the world on Jews, is really not new.

67 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:50:08am

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

I didn't do it. Nope, never saw it, nope, can't say that I know him.
What's up?

Just trying to stay out of trouble

68 Wendya  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:50:11am

re: #23 Sharmuta

Frankly- I blame some of this on Jonah Goldberg for his revisionism on fascism.

Revisionism? He merely pointed out what some of us have been saying for years. If you actually sit down and THINK about it, there is nothing logical about the left/right spectrum. It was envisioned by someone who decided the right was authoritarian and was against personal freedom. The same "thinkers" classified using the government to make everyone equal was the ultimate in freedom. We know this is not true so why do we still depend on that failed political model?

69 solomonpanting  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:50:17am

Just curious:
Ask 1000 people if someone who hates Jews and Blacks and Browns is right-wing or left-wing. What do you think the ratio would be?

70 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:50:22am
71 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:50:51am

"Brilliant Comrade". Yeah. google this for a giggle.

72 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:50:59am

re: #57 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm still in favor of liquidating every asset this guy owns and presenting it to his victim's family and the Holocaust Museum. Place the photo over his bed and let him get a good look at how his life's work is going to use.

Great idea. Bet he doesn't have a pot to piss in.

73 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:51:16am

re: #69 solomonpanting

Just curious:
Ask 1000 people if someone who hates Jews and Blacks and Browns is right-wing or left-wing. What do you think the ratio would be?

50:50

74 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:51:27am

Debbie Schlussel blames the shooting on Islam.

[Link: www.debbieschlussel.com...]

75 brookly red  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:51:32am

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

I didn't do it. Nope, never saw it, nope, can't say that I know him.
What's up?

/they found a hat at the scene...

76 Hengineer  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:51:39am

re: #65 MandyManners

Sounds like a whacked-out Internet soap opera.

How about a Mechanic Soap Opera? Unless you are talking figuratively instead of literally.

As the tin foil curls....

77 Kragar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:51:42am

re: #69 solomonpanting

Just curious:
Ask 1000 people if someone who hates Jews and Blacks and Browns is right-wing or left-wing. What do you think the ratio would be?

Throw in rich and educated.

78 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:51:46am

re: #30 lawhawk

What I want to see a report on is the "entryist" propaganda and recruiting methods. I want examples and details.

That's the thing I'm really interested in.

79 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:52:00am

re: #69 solomonpanting

Just curious:
Ask 1000 people if someone who hates Jews and Blacks and Browns is right-wing or left-wing. What do you think the ratio would be?

Hatred transcends politics.

80 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:52:03am
81 opnion  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:52:09am

From what I have read about this guy, his opinions flopped around both extremes.
If I had to label him, I would say right wing kook. The fact remains that anti-semitcism and other hate is prominent on the extremes of both wings. One difference that I do see on the Left is that anti-semicism is mainsteamed in academia.

82 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:52:18am

re: #67 Nevergiveup

Just trying to stay out of trouble

I've been really busy this week getting ready for our new show which open tonight. Not only have we been in tech week, we had all the carpet replaced this week, new lobby furniture, general clean up of stuff we've been putting off, I've work an average of 15 hours a day every day this week.

So, I've only checked in here occasionally. Will be leaving in a few minutes for the theatre.

83 Red Pencil  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:52:33am

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

Oh bullshit. I've met people like this, WAY before we had a lot of conservative media. These completely against EVERYTHING nut cases, who starts with the Jews and blames the whole shape of the world on Jews, is really not new.

You talking about Krugman, or von Brunn?

84 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:53:14am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

I've been really busy this week getting ready for our new show which open tonight. Not only have we been in tech week, we had all the carpet replaced this week, new lobby furniture, general clean up of stuff we've been putting off, I've work an average of 15 hours a day every day this week.

So, I've only checked in here occasionally. Will be leaving in a few minutes for the theatre.

Good Luck. Break a whatever?

85 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:53:18am

re: #68 Wendya

See- I no longer think in terms of left and right. It's outdated, and doesn't fit the spectrum properly at all. If you'd like a different spectrum, I could recommend a good book, but to think that I haven't thought about the political spectrum is laughable considering I'm relentlessly discussing a different dichotomy altogether from the left an right.

86 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:53:24am

re: #75 brookly red

/they found a hat at the scene...

I don't look like that anymore, see my new avatar. The "hat" picture was 8 years old and from a part I was playing in a show, the new avatar is more current, after my 200 plus pounds weight loss.

87 Bloodnok  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:53:29am

He's right wing.

I'm right wing.

He doesn't speak for me, my beliefs, or the beliefs of anyone I associate with. I can barely recognize his version of right wing, but by definition it's there.

/There. That was easy. I didn't turn to dust by admitting that such a person exists on the same side of the political spectrum as I do.

88 Hengineer  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:53:49am

re: #83 Red Pencil

You talking about Krugman, or von Brunn?

A few decades ago, they wore white suits with a pointy tip.

89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:54:34am

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

You were a fat bastard, weren'tcha?

90 Last Mohican  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:54:39am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

He is someone who murdered a museum guard in cold blood, as said guard stood between him and unarmed people. That is all that matters.

I don't think it's all that matters. Because the sick ideology that motivated his despicable actions is not his alone. It's nurtured and amplified by a large worldwide network of similar right-wing extremists whose writings, web sites, and the like serve to promote murders like this and make them more likely to happen. So preventing similar violence in the future requires identifying and understanding the ideology behind it, as, for example, DHS did with their recent memo about right-wing extremism.

91 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:54:40am

re: #87 Bloodnok

I think you're constrained and he's a fascist (which is non-constrained) so the two of you have very little in common, really.

92 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:54:44am

re: #41 Steffan

DC might not have the death penalty, but if they treat it as a federal crime, the feds could take jurisdiction and seek the death penalty under 18 U.S.C. 1111 (first degree murder), or 18 U.S.C. 930, murder in federal facility (the USHMM appears to qualify).

93 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:55:19am

re: #83 Red Pencil

You talking about Krugman, or von Brunn?

Krugman blames every bad thing in the world on GWB.

94 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:55:40am

I think he's just an unbalanced nutcase who isn't easily labeled as any one kind of nut.

95 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:55:48am

re: #48 brookly red

uhhh, he's 80 something years old...

And - no matter what, no matter who - I don't think prison rape is funny.

96 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:55:54am

re: #83 Red Pencil

You talking about Krugman, or von Brunn?

Brunn (sorry). Brunn is the complete anti-semite, the one who has the answer "JEW" as the foundation for everything wrong in their life.

He reminds me of the "nazi" in "The Visitor" how says "I smell like shit all the time, why, because the Jew makes me feel like shit."

That's how Brunn thinks.

97 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:55:56am

re: #87 Bloodnok

He's a carbon based life form.
I'm carbon based life form.

Hopefully, similarities stop there.

98 Bloodnok  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:56:09am

re: #91 Sharmuta

I think you're constrained and he's a fascist (which is non-constrained) so the two of you have very little in common, really.

*slaps self on wrist for using left/right labels*

There I go again. See? Still learning! :-)

99 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:56:14am

re: #92 lawhawk

DC might not have the death penalty, but if they treat it as a federal crime, the feds could take jurisdiction and seek the death penalty under 18 U.S.C. 1111 (first degree murder), or 18 U.S.C. 930, murder in federal facility (the USHMM appears to qualify).

I thought they did charge him federally? Am I mistaken?

100 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:56:15am
101 MJ  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:56:18am

re: #93 Son of the Black Dog

Krugman blames every bad thing in the world on GWB.

Unlike his pal Roger Cohen who blames everything bad in the world on Israel.

102 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:57:03am
103 doppelganglander  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:57:11am

re: #81 opnion

From what I have read about this guy, his opinions flopped around both extremes.
If I had to label him, I would say right wing kook. The fact remains that anti-semitcism and other hate is prominent on the extremes of both wings. One difference that I do see on the Left is that anti-semicism is mainsteamed in academia.

I think his anti-Semitism is clearly of the paleocon variety. Leftist anti-Semitism seems to grow out of the fetishization of brown and black people as somehow more authentic, in touch with nature, and overwhelmingly good and generous. Lefty anti-Semites see all those fabulous brown people as oppressed by evil white colonialism. That's about the last thing von Brunn would believe.

104 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:57:15am

re: #101 MJ

Unlike his pal Roger Cohen who blames everything bad in the world on Israel.

Birds of a feather flock together

105 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:57:36am
106 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:57:55am

re: #98 Bloodnok

How far into the book have you gotten?

107 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:57:59am

re: #61 FurryOldGuyJeans

The thing is that the only reason some groups want to disassociate themselves from von Brunner is that they don't want the attention focused on them that the man's crime will bring. He kicked over the rock and the vermin are scrambling to get away from the light.

Good. Let's watch them.

108 Bloodnok  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:58:17am

re: #106 Sharmuta

How far into the book have you gotten?

Chapter 3.

109 neocon hippie  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:58:22am

Jonah Goldberg makes a pretty good case that Father Charles Coughlin was a man of the left. Apparently he advocated for the typical social programs, and his complaint against FDR was that the New Deal was not going far enough. He was no libertarian free marketeer.

Von Brunn is batshit crazy and his views have nothing to do with modern conservatism.

BTW, has the security guard who shot Von Brunn after the latter shot Johns been identified? That person is a major hero.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:58:23am

re: #74 Mad Al-Jaffee

Debbie Schlussel blames the shooting on Islam.

[Link: www.debbieschlussel.com...]

Debbie Schlussel is...incorrect in her analysis. There, I got through that without cussing!

111 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:58:44am

re: #99 Nevergiveup

As I suspected, he was charged under both 18 USC 1111 and 930.

Those are death penalty eligible crimes.

112 tfc3rid  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:59:23am

re: #105 Iron Fist

Actually +1 for a reference to the stupid prequel trilogy...

113 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:59:30am
114 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:59:40am

re: #69 solomonpanting

Just curious:
Ask 1000 people if someone who hates Jews and Blacks and Browns is right-wing or left-wing. What do you think the ratio would be?

My reply would be that they're nuts.

115 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:59:48am

re: #107 Dianna

Good. Let's watch them.

You certainly won't get any disagreement from me on that issue.

116 ihateronpaul  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:59:56am

re: #21 Red Pencil

What I ask people like this, is he leftist because he's evil and wrong, or maybe is he evil and wrong because he's a leftist? Why is it necessary for some to prove that whoever is evil and wrong must be on the Left?

Can't we just recognize evil as evil?

Why do these people capitalize SOCIALIST and leave "National" in normal case?

Because Jonah Goldberg has made a career out of that crap and brainwashed people. He is the Michael Savage of NRO, basically.

117 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:00:16am

re: #108 Bloodnok

Chapter 3.

You've just started your discovery. :)

118 Hengineer  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:00:22am

re: #85 Sharmuta

See- I no longer think in terms of left and right. It's outdated, and doesn't fit the spectrum properly at all. If you'd like a different spectrum, I could recommend a good book, but to think that I haven't thought about the political spectrum is laughable considering I'm relentlessly discussing a different dichotomy altogether from the left an right.

[Link: www.quiz2d.com...]

2 dimensional political spectrum. I've taken their quiz multiple times, and it said I was either a libertarian leaning centrist, or a slight conservative who likes the amount of government we have now (well did have at the time).

119 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:00:36am

re: #89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You were a fat bastard, weren'tcha?

Are you calling me "cha?"

120 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:00:41am

Last update - 19:50 12/06/2009

U.S. official: Content of Netanyahu's Sunday speech 'not adequate'

By Reuters

Tags: Barack Obama


The proposals to be outlined in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech on Sunday will not be enough to satisfy the Obama administration, a senior U.S. official was quoted as saying on Friday.

The official said Netanyahu told U.S. envoy George Mitchell this week what he planned to say in the speech and that it was "not adequate" to satisfy Washington, who is pushing for an immediate resumption of talks on Palestinian statehood.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I hope all my Jewish Friends and Relatives are Freak en feeling the love now! Maybe someone should point out to Obama, Mitchell, and all the other "Honest Brokers" and "Moral Equivalence Assholes" that they were NOT elected Prime Minister of Israel!

121 GeorgetownPress  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:00:51am

Von Brunn is 88; if he every lived in the South prior to the 1960s, he would have likely be a Democrat. There should be nothing surprising or controversial about this.

122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:01:03am

re: #119 Walter L. Newton

Are you calling me "cha?"

Ya.

123 theheat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:01:28am

re: #80 Iron Fist

Actually, he was effective. He murdered someone in cold blood with the intention of murdering more. Mentally ill or not, and most likely so, the sonofabitch chose to murder innocent people rather than off his miserable self.

Headlines always read murder/suicide. Ever stop to think how much more brief they would be if the read suicide, followed by a period? Miserable and crazy as they are, they always kill someone else before they either take their own life or are taken out.

This makes them dangerous chickenshits. Too chicken to end their own life without taking others out, first.

124 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:02:21am

re: #118 Hengineer

[Link: www.quiz2d.com...]

2 dimensional political spectrum. I've taken their quiz multiple times, and it said I was either a libertarian leaning centrist, or a slight conservative who likes the amount of government we have now (well did have at the time).

I wouldn't bother with such a test now, but that's just me.

125 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:02:39am

von brunn w/ his jew hatred and blaming, sounds like the kind of guy who would have been in the front row of rev wrong's church from the very moment it opened it's toxic doors.
and like he heard everything.

126 Wendya  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:02:52am

re: #63 Hengineer

the best way I've seen it described is a 2-dimensional chart. Left to Right means liberal to conservative, while up-down means libertarian to authoritarian. One can be liberal while wanting less or more government.

I forget the website but if you look up "political spectrum quiz", you will see a website made by a guy who wants to be a Libertarian, but thinks the Libertarian party is WAAAAY out there, when in fact he just wants a little less government then we have now.

The linear model we use today is a complete failure. The multidimensional models, circular or horseshoe models come closer to the realities of American politics.

127 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:02:57am

20:35 J Street blasts `distorted` poll that says Israelis against settlement freeze (Haaretz)

What does J stand for? Jackass?

128 MJ  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:03:34am

re: #120 Nevergiveup

Last update - 19:50 12/06/2009

U.S. official: Content of Netanyahu's Sunday speech 'not adequate'

By Reuters

Tags: Barack Obama

The proposals to be outlined in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech on Sunday will not be enough to satisfy the Obama administration, a senior U.S. official was quoted as saying on Friday.

The official said Netanyahu told U.S. envoy George Mitchell this week what he planned to say in the speech and that it was "not adequate" to satisfy Washington, who is pushing for an immediate resumption of talks on Palestinian statehood.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I hope all my Jewish Friends and Relatives are Freak en feeling the love now! Maybe someone should point out to Obama, Mitchell, and all the other "Honest Brokers" and "Moral Equivalence Assholes" that they were NOT elected Prime Minister of Israel!

Anything coming from Haaretz regarding Netanyahu should be discounted.
However, Glick had a good idea today. She suggested that Netanyahu appoint a special envoy to deal with Mitchell.
By the way, Mitchell was in Lebanon today. No word if he met with Hamas.

129 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:03:51am

The identity of the SPO who shot Brunn isn't identified, but the criminal complaint does indicate that two officers did return fire and resulted in injuring Brunn.

130 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:03:57am

re: #125 nyc redneck

von brunn w/ his jew hatred and blaming, sounds like the kind of guy who would have been in the front row of rev wrong's church from the very moment it opened it's toxic doors.
and like he heard everything.

You're right. And let's just thank heavens that Obama never heard anything sitting in Rev. Wrong's church for twenty years, or else our country could be really moving down the wrong path.
/////

131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:04:01am

Gotta run. Y'all wish me luck.

I used to be fairly well to do.

132 KenJen  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:04:28am

re: #121 GeorgetownPress

Von Brunn is 88; if he every lived in the South prior to the 1960s, he would have likely be a Democrat. There should be nothing surprising or controversial about this.

True. But Democrats back then are nothing like the Dems. of today. They probably resembled today's Republicans.

133 tfc3rid  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:04:49am

BTW, most TV stations are signing off their 'TV' signals as we speak in the East... Stations are signing on 'DT' as we speak.

134 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:05:18am

This is one twisted person:

'Rockefeller' convicted of kidnapping daughter
by Denise Lavoie - Jun. 12, 2009 10:34 AM
Associated Press

BOSTON - A German man who called himself Clark Rockefeller and spun fantastic stories about himself during three decades in the United States was convicted Friday of kidnapping his 7-year-old daughter.

Rockefeller, whose real name is Christian Karl Gerhartsreiter, snatched the girl during a supervised visit last July and fled to Baltimore with her.

The jurors, who began deliberating Monday, rejected the theory put forth by Gerhartsreiter's lawyers: that he was suffering from a delusional disorder and legally insane. Prosecutors called the diagnosis "preposterous" and said he planned the kidnapping for months because he was angry that his wife had divorced him and gained custody of their daughter, Reigh.

Gerhartsreiter also was convicted of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon for ordering the driver of an SUV to pull away with a social worker clinging to the door. The jury acquitted him on another assault count and on a charge of giving a false name to police.

135 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:05:25am

re: #131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gotta run. Y'all wish me luck.

I used to be fairly well to do.

Good luck!

(With respect to what, I wonder.)

136 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:05:30am

A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggle

Left and right is just a poor dichotomy. The dichotomy of the visions is a much more accurate scale by which to balance politics.

137 J.S.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:05:32am

A long time ago, there was a faction of the Democratic Party in the Deep South that always was right-wing and entirely opposed to anything "liberal." (That faction was dissolved around the time of Nixon...)

138 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:05:58am

re: #109 neocon hippie

Jonah Goldberg makes a pretty good case that Father Charles Coughlin was a man of the left. Apparently he advocated for the typical social programs, and his complaint against FDR was that the New Deal was not going far enough. He was no libertarian free marketeer.

If you read up on Father Coughlin, it's just not true that he was a socialist -- he was a Bircher-style anti-communist. Again -- this is just revisionism to try to put Father Coughlin on the "left." It's absurd.

139 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:06:17am

re: #132 KenJen

True. But Democrats back then are nothing like the Dems. of today. They probably resembled today's Republicans.

That would perfectly describe my mother.

140 solomonpanting  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:06:17am

re: #113 Iron Fist

Most people wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about. But they'd dislike the Republicans. At least they would after the MSM got through massaging the data.

Reading your response has caused me to rethink the question. Instead of making a right-wing left-wing distinction, I'd phrase it as a Democrat/Republican choice. And, if certain characteristics still hold in this fast-paced, ever changing world, what with Dems being liberal/left and Reps conservative/right, then most people would know how to respond.

141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:06:41am

George H.W. Bush jumped out of an airplane today.

Happy Birthday, Mr. President.

142 MJ  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:07:33am

What this shooting should do is to make law authorities as well as media to take antisemitism seriously...whether coming from the Right or the Left.

143 Gus  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:08:04am

At this rate they're going to start claiming that the Dixiecrats were leftists and that George Wallace was a socialist.

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:08:17am

re: #121 GeorgetownPress

Von Brunn is 88; if he every lived in the South prior to the 1960s, he would have likely be a Democrat. There should be nothing surprising or controversial about this.

No, there wouldn't be. Nor would it mean that he was a 'left-winger' of any sort.

U.S. political history is complex, and does not neatly line up with European political history, and there are multiple factors involved with anyone like this.

Fact of the matter: he is a homegrown bigot, of the kind that hates people who aren't white, distrusts the government, and believes the Jews control everything. Traditionally, such people get assigned to the right. Does he have more in common with left-wing nutcases than either of them would like to admit? Hell yeah. But we don't need to squish this guy onto an artificial left/right spectrum, we know who he is. He's the Klan. Maybe not by membership, but by everything he stood for. He's the enemy. I think that all Americans, regardless of party affiliation or opinions about taxes should understand that. This is a man allied with hate to the core of his being.

145 Wendya  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:08:21am

re: #85 Sharmuta

See- I no longer think in terms of left and right. It's outdated, and doesn't fit the spectrum properly at all. If you'd like a different spectrum, I could recommend a good book, but to think that I haven't thought about the political spectrum is laughable considering I'm relentlessly discussing a different dichotomy altogether from the left an right.

If that's the case, why do you argue Goldberg's position that a political ideology that supports government control of the media, economy and reduced personal liberty is not found on the side of the political spectrum that supports less government and more liberty?

146 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:08:31am

re: #142 MJ

What this shooting should do is to make law authorities as well as media to take antisemitism seriously...whether coming from the Right or the Left.

We could only wish. I know liberal Jews that don't even take the current situation seriously.

147 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:08:55am

re: #132 KenJen

True. But Democrats back then are nothing like the Dems. of today. They probably resembled today's Republicans.

Actually, the Democrats of the Old South are more accurately grouped with the populists. That is, they looked like more like Pat Buchanan than like any mainstream Republican I can think of. (And no, I don't consider Buchanan a Republican.)

148 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:08:56am
149 Beach Lover  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:09:02am

is anyone else having trouble logging in to LGF? Maybe its my puter or me, but its taking forever to load comments after I finally did get on.

bueller?

150 Hengineer  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:09:07am

re: #124 Sharmuta

I wouldn't bother with such a test now, but that's just me.

That's fine, I was just pointing it out. You can still read the write-ups from the different styles of results they have in case you're curious. Just that a two-dimensional spectrum is a lot more accurate and allows for a lot more styles of political thought.

151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:09:44am

Oh...and...

Let's all wish good luck to President Dinnerjacket in the election today.

/

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:09:52am

re: #123 theheat

Headlines always read murder/suicide. Ever stop to think how much more brief they would be if the read suicide, followed by a period? Miserable and crazy as they are, they always kill someone else before they either take their own life or are taken out.
.

"You know these guys who shoot the girlfriend, and then themselves? They need education. They need counseling. If they get counseling and education, we can convince them to shoot themselves, and then the girlfriend."

153 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:10:05am
There’s a claim going around some blogs that Von Brunn is a registered Democrat, but no one has presented proof. It started with one sentence at a blog with nothing to back it up — no links or images of voter registration cards — and should be considered highly suspect.

That's bullshit. He voted for Ron Paul or Pat Buchanan. Or maybe a write-in for himself.

154 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:10:14am

re: #127 Nevergiveup

20:35 J Street blasts `distorted` poll that says Israelis against settlement freeze (Haaretz)

What does J stand for? Jackass?

Last week, the Jewish Advocate (Jewish newspaper in Boston) came out with an editorial showing how J Street consorts with terrorist supporters - the usual suspects, in this case, of Muslim Brotherhood spinoffs that try to appear "moderate".
Unfortunately, the articles on the web require a subscription, and don't usually include archives. (The paper comes out on Thursday)

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:10:39am

re: #125 nyc redneck

von brunn w/ his jew hatred and blaming, sounds like the kind of guy who would have been in the front row of rev wrong's church from the very moment it opened it's toxic doors.
and like he heard everything.

I can't see him sitting in a black church.

156 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:10:55am

re: #151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh...and...

Let's all wish good luck to President Dinnerjacket in the election today.

/

I'd rather root for his opponent, thank you very much.

157 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:11:07am

re: #124 Sharmuta

I wouldn't bother with such a test now, but that's just me.

I couldn't resist, came up with "smaller government centrist." This is really a disappointingly wimpy label, I was hoping for "bloodthirsty neo-con maniac."

158 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:11:14am

re: #138 Charles

If you read up on Father Coughlin, it's just not true that he was a socialist -- he was a Bircher-style anti-communist. Again -- this is just revisionism to try to put Father Coughlin on the "left." It's absurd.

He used anti-communist phraseology. But, as Goldberg says, Father Coughlin was a populist.

We can always say that Ron Paul is also a populist, and we won't be far off.

Populism is frequently anti-elite, anti-intellectual, levelling and nativist. Make of that what you will. It's easy to label populist oratory as either left or right, depending on which aspects you emphasize.

159 Hengineer  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:11:15am

re: #145 Wendya

If that's the case, why do you argue Goldberg's position that a political ideology that supports government control of the media, economy and reduced personal liberty is not found on the side of the political spectrum that supports less government and more liberty?

Depends on what you meant by that. Republicans aren't all for less government and more liberty. Tell that to the so-called "Christian Right" who want nanny state laws to control your thought and your actions based on their moral code.

160 theheat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:11:24am

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

And I'd be happy to offer them that kind of counseling ;-)

"You see, it's a simple two-step program..."

161 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:12:48am

re: #145 Wendya

If that's the case, why do you argue Goldberg's position that a political ideology that supports government control of the media, economy and reduced personal liberty is not found on the side of the political spectrum that supports less government and more liberty?

Fascism has elements of both the left and the right, the constrained vision and the unconstrained vision. Fascism is a hybrid where leftists like to see the right, and the right sees leftists.

162 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:12:51am
163 Hengineer  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:13:17am

re: #157 Shiplord Kirel

I couldn't resist, came up with "smaller government centrist." This is really a disappointingly wimpy label, I was hoping for "bloodthirsty neo-con maniac."

Haha I was almost expecting that too, but remember that website was put together by a Libertarian who wasn't a loon, not a Democrat or Republican.

164 KenJen  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:13:25am

re: #147 Son of the Black Dog

Actually, the Democrats of the Old South are more accurately grouped with the populists. That is, they looked like more like Pat Buchanan than like any mainstream Republican I can think of. (And no, I don't consider Buchanan a Republican.)

Maybe I'm thinking about it a different way. Older Americans who were Dems. in their youth still call themselves Dems. and vote Democratic. Most that I know don't have the values their party holds. They seem closer aligined with the GOP.

165 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:13:27am

re: #162 MandyManners

From one of Charles' threads about him yesterday, his manifesto.

If you've not read it before, don't do so if you're easliy nauseated.

166 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:13:45am
167 callahan23  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #6 Kosh's Shadow

Go far enough left or right and you end up in a cesspit of Jew-haters.

Thank you for this succinct and spot on observation.
Major up-ding.

168 theheat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let's all hold hands and chant for him, shall we?

//

169 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:14:38am

re: #159 Hengineer

Depends on what you meant by that. Republicans aren't all for less government and more liberty. Tell that to the so-called "Christian Right" who want nanny state laws to control your thought and your actions based on their moral code.

Exactly. They're not what I consider to be "right", but they are instead of the unconstrained vision, they just have different solutions to the issues than leftists.

170 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:15:17am

re: #159 Hengineer

Depends on what you meant by that. Republicans aren't all for less government and more liberty. Tell that to the so-called "Christian Right" who want nanny state laws to control your thought and your actions based on their moral code.

Very true. It's worth noting as well that the Jim Crow era segregationists were populists, in that politicians who personally knew better (like George Wallace) would reflexively appeal to the racist masses. Segregationism was always portrayed as a populist position, taking the side of the little (white) man against northern elitists and industrialists who saw profit in mixing the races.

171 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:15:44am

I'm reminded of this quote for some reason, from a friendly shrink:

"The rigidity of our personality will be in direct proportion to how much we can't look at for fear of damaging our idealized image. The healthy person faces more reality than unhealthy people do. That's why they are supple, responsive and non-defensive."

I think we conservatives can only get healthier by facing the fact that not everyone on the right is "good." Introspection and scrutiny, not to mention honesty, are valuable tools.

172 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:16:11am
173 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #162 MandyManners

From one of Charles' threads about him yesterday, his manifesto.

I'm fighting my way through it. That man was incoherent, illogical, and revolting.

174 subsailor68  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:16:38am

On topic: Another reason the L.A. Times is in trouble:

Holocaust shooting investigation asks why

The subhead:

Law enforcement believes they have their man in 88-year-old James von Brunn. But what might have made him cross the line from hateful words to violence, killing one at the Holocaust Museum?

What's missing? Oh yeah, grammar and syntax - the works.

And by the way L.A. Times, what's up with "believes"? That verb is normally paired with a singular noun. Are you saying "Law enforcement" is singular? If so, what's up with the "their"? Or do you think "their" is singular as well?

Oh yeah, the last line of your subhead. Killing one what? A hateful word? You might have written "killing a brave security guard who probably saved many lives through his sacrifice."

Idiots.

175 J.S.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:16:58am

re: #166 buzzsawmonkey

I believe that there are any number of people who are attempting to get maximum political mileage from this hideous event...(translation: so one political group can smear another political group)...

176 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:17:17am

From A Conflict of Visions concerning fascism:

One of the hybrid visions which has had a spectacular rise and fall in the twentieth century is fascism. Here some of the key elements of the constrained vision - obedience to authority, loyalty to one's people, willingness to fight - were strongly invoked, but always under the overriding imperative to follow an unconstrained leader, under no obligation to respect laws, traditions, institutions, or even common decency. The systematic processes at the core of the constrained vision were negated by a totalitarianism directed against every independent social process, from religion to political or economic freedom. Fascism appropriated some of the symbolic aspects of the constrained vision, without the systemic processes which gave them meaning. It was an unconstrained vision of governance which attributed to its leaders a scope of knowledge and dedication to the common good wholly incompatible with the constrained vision whose symbols it invoked.

Adherents of both the constrained and the unconstrained visions each see fascism as the logical extension of the adversary's vision. To those on the political left, fascism is "the far right." Conversely, to Hayek, Hitler's "national socialism" (Nazism) was indeed socialist in concept and execution.

177 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:17:30am
178 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:17:48am

The bedrock stance of tribal nationalists of tribal purism is what puts them on the right in almost all cases (there are some Marxist Hindu tribal nationalist orgs, the cognitive dissonance is great with those ones...) Almost 100 percent of ethnic nationalists are extremely opposed to Marxism, but their reasons are different than yours or mine in many cases. Marxist is internationalist, Nationalism is nationalist. You can't have a tribally pure government with either world communism or world socialism, and the anti-semitism you see from these groups comes from associating secular humanists and Jews in general with socialism and communism.

So there are always two main drivers at the core of most white supremist orgs: Tribal purity and homelands, and opposition to communism. It's the opposition to communism that gives them inroads to sympathizers on the right.

179 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:17:55am

Drive-by post -- for Lizard information:

I just spoke with the receptionist and the Holocaust Memorial Museum. She indicated a fund is being set up to help Johns' family. Her understanding is that information will be posted on the Museum's web site after details are finalized.

180 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:18:34am
181 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:18:45am

I saw Stephen Johns' son yesterday and I just cried. Bless his heart.

182 doppelganglander  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:19:02am

re: #174 subsailor68

Journalists seem to have uniformly poor writing skills these days. They really don't write, actually. They select nouns, verbs and adjectives from a very limited vocabulary and plug them into a prepared template.

183 MJ  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:19:08am

re: #179 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Drive-by post -- for Lizard information:

I just spoke with the receptionist and the Holocaust Memorial Museum. She indicated a fund is being set up to help Johns' family. Her understanding is that information will be posted on the Museum's web site after details are finalized.

AJC starts memorial fund for museum guard
June 12, 2009

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- The American Jewish Committee set up a memorial fund to benefit the family of the security guard killed Wednesday at Washington's Holocaust museum.

The organization said it soon will have a place on its Web site to contribute to the fund in memory of Stephen Johns; those who want to donate immediately should send checks made out to the American Jewish Committee, with "Holocaust Museum Memorial Fund" in the memo line, to: American Jewish Committee, Washington Chapter, C/O Melanie Maron, 1156 15th Street, NW, Suite 120, Washington DC 20005. One hundred percent of the contributions will go to the Johns family, the AJC said.

184 affenkopf  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:19:12am

re: #74 Mad Al-Jaffee

Debbie Schlussel blames the shooting on Islam.

[Link: www.debbieschlussel.com...]

What a load of crap. So for Debbie Schlussel violent anti-semitism was only recently imported to Europe and the US by Muslim immigrants and never existed in these regions before. Right.

185 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:19:15am

re: #177 buzzsawmonkey

Is. Is incoherent, illogical, and revolting.

He's not dead yet.

I keep forgetting, somehow.

Probably wishful thinking - I so wish Mr. Johns was alive, instead.

186 KenJen  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:19:32am

re: #173 Dianna

I'm fighting my way through it. That man was incoherent, illogical, and revolting.

..but, but his friend said he was a genius.
/

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:19:44am

re: #181 J.D.

I saw Stephen Johns' son yesterday and I just cried. Bless his heart.

He had children? I was asking yesterday, and no one seemed to know. How old?

188 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:20:17am

re: #161 Sharmuta

Fascism has elements of both the left and the right, the constrained vision and the unconstrained vision. Fascism is a hybrid where leftists like to see the right, and the right sees leftists.

That's the conclusion I've come to from reading various books on the subject, that fascism is really a hybrid of rightist and leftis traditions. On hand, they espouse nationalism (rightist) and then go on to promote state-run companies such as the KdF Wagen (leftist). They're not democracy friendly, but use democracy to obtain power. It's also why the term "fascist" is so easily used by right and left to slur the other.

189 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:20:21am

re: #173 Dianna

I'm fighting my way through it. That man was incoherent, illogical, and revolting.

He was very well-versed in the type of insanity that you can find starting with David Icke and Jeff Rense.

190 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:20:33am

re: #183 MJ

AJC starts memorial fund for museum guard
June 12, 2009

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- The American Jewish Committee set up a memorial fund to benefit the family of the security guard killed Wednesday at Washington's Holocaust museum.

The organization said it soon will have a place on its Web site to contribute to the fund in memory of Stephen Johns; those who want to donate immediately should send checks made out to the American Jewish Committee, with "Holocaust Museum Memorial Fund" in the memo line, to: American Jewish Committee, Washington Chapter, C/O Melanie Maron, 1156 15th Street, NW, Suite 120, Washington DC 20005. One hundred percent of the contributions will go to the Johns family, the AJC said.

Thanks!

191 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:20:57am

re: #138 Charles

Father Charles Edward Coughlin

Coughlin used his radio program to promote Franklin D. Roosevelt and his early New Deal proposals, (and later to oppose FDR), to issue antisemitic commentary, and later to rationalize some of the policies of National Socialist Adolf Hitler and Fascist Benito Mussolini.

Coughlin's support for Roosevelt and his New Deal faded later in 1934, when he founded the National Union for Social Justice (NUSJ), a nationalistic worker's rights organization which grew impatient with what it viewed as the President's unconstitutional and pseudo-capitalistic monetary policies. His radio programs preached more and more about the negative influence of "money changers" and "permitting a group of private citizens to create money" on the general welfare of the public.[6] He also spoke about the need for monetary reform. Coughlin claimed that the Depression was a "cash famine". Some modern economic historians, in part, agree with this assessment. [7] Coughlin proposed monetary reforms, including the elimination of the Federal Reserve System, as the solution.

Among the articles of the NUSJ, were work and income guarantees, nationalizing "necessary" industry, wealth redistribution through taxation of the wealthy, federal protection of worker's unions, and decreasing property rights in favor of the government controlling the country's assets for "public good." [8] Illustrative of his disdain for capitalism is his statement that, "We maintain the principle that there can be no lasting prosperity if free competition exists in industry. Therefore, it is the business of government not only to legislate for a minimum annual wage and maximum working schedule to be observed by industry, but also to curtail individualism that, if necessary, factories shall be licensed and their output shall be limited." [9]

His views combined a number of positions from the left and right, with a big helping of antisemitism. In that regard, he was very much a 30's style Fascist. It is interesting to note Coughlin's support for "wealth redistribution through taxation of the wealthy" and the "government controlling the country's assets for public good." Those ideas have a lot of support within the Obama administration today.

192 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:20:58am

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

He had children? I was asking yesterday, and no one seemed to know. How old?

I'd guess he was around 10. So sad.

193 KingKenrod  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:21:21am

No question in my mind this guy is right-wing.

But the left wants to extrapolate this nut's behavior onto the rest of the right-wing. Draw a line between A and B and you tar-and-feather everything in between. Just look at Paul Krugman's column today, where he accuses Jon Voight and Mitch McConnell of complicity:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

So it's totally normal that the right-wing wants to defend itself from this attack. Most right-wingers (I prefer "conservative", but whatever) want nothing to do with scum like Von Brunn. I think it is important to point out the key differences between Von Brunn and the wide array of legitimate conservatives.

194 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:21:27am

re: #186 KenJen

..but, but his friend said he was a genius.
/

His friend is a racist, anti-semitic idiot. I'm sure Von Brunn appeared to him to be a genius.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:22:04am

re: #192 J.D.

I'd guess he was around 10. So sad.

Poor little one. What a nightmare.

196 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:22:13am
197 doubter4444  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:22:17am

re: #21 Red Pencil

What I ask people like this, is he leftist because he's evil and wrong, or maybe is he evil and wrong because he's a leftist? Why is it necessary for some to prove that whoever is evil and wrong must be on the Left?

Can't we just recognize evil as evil?

Why do these people capitalize SOCIALIST and leave "National" in normal case?

Good post.
I've been saying the same thing, it drives me nuts to see, and it just makes those on the right who claim so look... pathetic.

Right or wrong, one of the main complaints from CENTRISTS, not ideologues from either side was that, for most of the last administration no one took responsibility for anything. That there was never a problem, Katrina was handled right, the war was going smoothly, the economy was fine.... everything was peachy, or if not, well then it was those bad Democrats or Leftists or Acorn or who ever being dirty, or unfair, and the LIB media abetted them, and on and on and on.
Now again, please don't get caught up in the right or wrongness of the charge, (it's not the point I'm making!), but the meme is still pretty deep.

IMO, this is the same damn thing.
And you bet that it simply reinforces the those that think all the Conservatives do is whine "it's never the Right's fault".
It's really bad politics. And whining is really unbecoming.

198 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:22:22am

re: #137 J.S.

re: #164 KenJen

I think you're equating liberal with integration. Integration was what they were really against. They were, and in many cases still are, more accurately described as populists. That is, in favor of agriculture being operated as a cartel benefiting farmers, pro government control of the basics of the economy, against big business, against the utilities - many positions that we would now associate with the left.

199 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:22:24am

BTW, since I mentioned the Jewish Advocate, I realized I hadn't given a link.
Again, most articles are available only to subscribers.
But you can vote in their poll (on the main page, above)
What do you think about President Obama’s insistence on Israel halting all settlement construction?

200 J.S.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:22:50am

re: #170 Shiplord Kirel

there's a Wiki article on Southern Democrats (in the list there's not only George Wallace, but Jimmah Carter)...here...

201 doppelganglander  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:22:58am

re: #196 buzzsawmonkey

Erised, but yeah.

202 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:23:45am
203 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:23:53am

re: #189 MandyManners

He was very well-versed in the type of insanity that you can find starting with David Icke and Jeff Rense.

He's older than that. He cites Spengler.

204 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:24:52am
205 Kragar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:24:55am

Taliban critic slain in Pakistan suicide bombing

Sarfraz Naeemi, a renowned religious scholar, had spoken openly of his support for the ongoing government military offensive to root out Taliban militants from the Swat Valley and surrounding regions. His death sparked immediate protests on the streets of Lahore by followers angry at the Islamic militant group and at the lack of security provided by police to Naeemi and his seminary.


The bombing was one of two devastating attacks today in Pakistan, where a wave of retaliatory strikes continued in the wake of the government's bid to crush the Taliban movement. In the city of Nowshera, 60 miles west of Islamabad, the Pakistani capital, a suicide bomber drove an explosives-laden truck into a mosque at a military installation, killing at least six people and wounding at least 90. The Pakistani Taliban claimed responsibility for both attacks.

206 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:25:00am

re: #196 buzzsawmonkey

The Mirror of Esired scene in the film makes me cry.

207 MJ  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:25:44am

The New Republic asked the same question:

Was James Von Brunn a Right-Winger?

[Link: blogs.tnr.com...]

208 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:25:56am

He was 11. Stephen Jr.

...Johns' 11-year-old son, Stephen Jr., accompanied his grandmother to the hospital and prayed that he and his father would one day watch Sunday Redskins games again.

"He was really very loving to me," Stephen Jr. said, sitting on his grandmother's floor near a shelf filled with pictures of his dad.

"I thought he would make it, but he didn't."

His grandmother said that she lost feeling in her legs after seeing Johns, and her grandson came to her rescue.

"He kept it together," she said. "He got it from his dad."


www.nydailynews.com...]>Heartbroken Maryland family mourns U.S. Holocaust Museum guard killed by rifle-toting racist

209 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:26:39am

re: #162 MandyManners

From one of Charles' threads about him yesterday, his manifesto.

Has any sane person ever written a "manifesto"? I can't think of any.

210 NelsFree  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:26:40am

re: #202 buzzsawmonkey

Friday is type like a dyslectic dyslexic day!

ixed fit yor fou

211 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:27:23am

re: #205 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm pretty sure Charles has already seen that, but I recommended it, anyway.

212 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:27:40am

re: #162 MandyManners

From one of Charles' threads about him yesterday, his manifesto.

Michael Korn sent me a kornucopia of "The Best of von Brunn" and his assorted correspondence. I haven't opened any of the files. They are in PDF format, but could be infected.

213 KenJen  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:27:47am

re: #194 Dianna

His friend is a racist, anti-semitic idiot. I'm sure Von Brunn appeared to him to be a genius.

Yes he is. It's sickening the amount of times he's been quoted in the press.

214 LC LaWedgie  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:28:03am

Revolutionaries in academic circles have done a fine job of smearing the line between left and right in order to cover their base and point fingers.
A good example is the Nazi regime. Hope for the future was craved by German society. Therefore, Hitler's message rang "true" and offered change.
The old was thrown out, and a new era of perceived enlightenment commenced. Then the rule of law was modified to exclude certain members of the community and create scapegoats...
After a few years of this, the White Rose intellectuals resisted and became "passionate opponents of National Socialism" (wiki).
Claus von Strassburg's motivation, as stated in a BBC documentary, was that the Nazis were destroying his country.

"Isn’t it true that every honest German is ashamed of his government these days? Who among us can imagine the degree of shame that will come upon us and our children when the veil falls from our faces and the awful crimes that infinitely exceed any human measure are exposed to the light of day?" (wiki)


Shame is a conservative, rule of law concept -- left-think attempts to minimize shame through negotiation. So does von Brunn.

215 subsailor68  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:28:45am

re: #209 Mad Al-Jaffee

Has any sane person ever written a "manifesto"? I can't think of any.

I'd go with the Declaration of Independence.

;-)

216 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:29:00am

re: #209 Mad Al-Jaffee

Has any sane person ever written a "manifesto"? I can't think of any.

Yeah, me.

/ oh wait......

217 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:29:18am

re: #208 J.D.

He was 11. Stephen Jr.


Heartbroken Maryland family mourns U.S. Holocaust Museum guard killed by rifle-toting racist

A good-looking man. He worked as a corrections officer, it says, before taking this job. A life of service. 39 years old.

What a horrible waste.

218 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:30:02am

re: #213 KenJen

Yes he is. It's sickening the amount of times he's been quoted in the press.

It's called being lazy, and journalists sure fit the bill.

219 NelsFree  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:30:10am

re: #209 Mad Al-Jaffee

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

I shall merely post this, and let the audience be the jury.
/carefully

220 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:30:16am

re: #203 Dianna

He's older than that. He cites Spengler.

I was referring to the stuff about Khazars, the Illuminati and the like.

221 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:30:23am

re: #180 Iron Fist

You know this how? That is a pretty bold statement to make when no one really knows the facts right now.


It's a pretty safe assumption. His past actions against the Federal Reserve and his postings on Paulian forums indicates he might be a Paulian. His writings were praised by stormfront which also endorsed Ron Paul. He might have also voted for Buchanan of some wacky libertarian.

222 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:30:50am

re: #209 Mad Al-Jaffee

Has any sane person ever written a "manifesto"? I can't think of any.

Neither can I.

223 planetdan  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:30:52am

the only difference between right wing antisemitism and left wing antisemitism is the right wingers call them Jews and left wingers call them Zionists.

224 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:31:11am

re: #212 Alouette

Michael Korn sent me a kornucopia of "The Best of von Brunn" and his assorted correspondence. I haven't opened any of the files. They are in PDF format, but could be infected.

I'd hit the DELETE button.

225 KenJen  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:31:40am

re: #198 Son of the Black Dog

I got ya. Makes sense.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:32:05am

re: #223 planetdan

the only difference between right wing antisemitism and left wing antisemitism is the right wingers call them Jews and left wingers call them Zionists.

As Dr. King so perceptively noted. The problem is that sometimes the left wing anti-Semites slip, and call us Jews too, and then it gets awful confusing.

227 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:32:08am

re: #223 planetdan

the only difference between right wing antisemitism and left wing antisemitism is the right wingers call them Jews and left wingers call them Zionists.

That's been my experience.

228 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:32:11am

re: #212 Alouette

Michael Korn sent me a kornucopia of "The Best of von Brunn" and his assorted correspondence. I haven't opened any of the files. They are in PDF format, but could be infected.

You could send them to someone who has a safe way of opening them. Who knows, it may even be worth a thread here?

229 tradewind  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:32:20am

Not only did von brunn take a valuable life in its prime, he could very well have had a shot go astray and kill or wound children or students visiting the Museum. The guard, Tyrone, died a hero in my opinion.

230 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:32:41am

re: #222 MandyManners

Neither can I.

See #215 subsailor68.

231 Ben Hur  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:32:53am

This is one of the lists I've seen:

Registered Democrat (needs confirmation)
Christian hater
Jew Hater
FOX News’ O'Reilly hater
Weekly Standard hater
Bush hater
Neo-con hater
9-11 was an inside job nut
Socialist
artist
Stated that “SOCIALISM, represents the future of the West”
Stated that the Apostle Paul destroyed Rome by undermining its pagan virility.
Hated corporations

232 NelsFree  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:33:16am

Manifesto:

A public declaration of principles, policies, or intentions, especially of a political nature.

Word!

233 Dekar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:33:23am

Kookosity!

234 Last Mohican  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:33:28am

re: #223 planetdan

the only difference between right wing antisemitism and left wing antisemitism is the right wingers call them Jews and left wingers call them Zionists.

Well-put. Although occasionally the left-wing anti-semites slip up and forget to replace "Jew" by "Zionist," as Jeremiah Wright did this week.

235 tradewind  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:33:37am

re: #231 Ben Hur

' Whack job' should have topped that list.

236 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:33:49am

The racists and racialists want to bring the wars of Europe to the US. We won't stand for socialism, we won't stand for marxism, and we won't stand for nazism or fascism. Europe's history of war between the red and the black is a horrid 300 year history, and I sure don't want that coming here. Piss on all the big ideology "isms" with the exception of Capitalism.

237 Dekar  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:33:50am

re: #231 Ben Hur

in other words, hes a hater!

238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:34:17am

re: #205 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Taliban critic slain in Pakistan suicide bombing

This'll fuel the formation of anti-Taliban lashkars. If the Pak Army's smart, it'll intensify big time its support of those tribesmen.

If the Indians are smart, they'll pull large numbers of front-line troops back from the border and call in a third party (NOT the U.N. fer g*d's sake) to monitor the stand-down.

If properly used by their opponents, these attacks against other Muslims could even be the essential death-knell of the Taliban as an organised, effective, fighting force.

/not rosey-tinted glasses ... just seeing hopeful signs on LWJ

239 Ben Hur  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:34:24am

And there are those who blame the Tea Parties.

240 Digital Display  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:34:29am

re: #223 planetdan

the only difference between right wing antisemitism and left wing antisemitism is the right wingers call them Jews and left wingers call them Zionists.


So Does the Moderate wing of the antiSemetic party call them Honco's and Juices?
/

241 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:34:42am

/pimf: Republicanism is OK too !

242 NelsFree  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:36:00am

re: #206 Sharmuta

The Mirror of Esired Erised scene in the film makes me cry.


/Desire spelled backwards

243 tradewind  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:36:08am

re: #234 Last Mohican

Given BHO's early indoctrination in Indonesia, and his later subjection to twenty years of racist rants from Rev. Wright, it boggles my mind to try understanding how Rahm & Co. can work for him. He almost certainly retains some fragments of the antisemitic values he was taught as a 'yute.

244 Ben Hur  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:36:10am

Me?

I don't give a shit what he was, but I don't think a leftist would hit the Holocaust Museum.

The left LOVES the image of the weak Jew.

They HATE the image, and reality, of the non-victim strong Jew.

245 slokat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:36:10am

re: #217 SanFranciscoZionist

A good-looking man. He worked as a corrections officer, it says, before taking this job. A life of service. 39 years old.

What a horrible waste.

And, his mother is praying that Brunn will be able to recover and learn to give up his hatred...

246 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:36:42am

re: #191 Kenneth


Father Charles Edward Coughlin

Coughlin used his radio program to promote Franklin D. Roosevelt and his early New Deal proposals, (and later to oppose FDR), to issue antisemitic commentary, and later to rationalize some of the policies of National Socialist Adolf Hitler and Fascist Benito Mussolini.

His views combined a number of positions from the left and right, with a big helping of antisemitism. In that regard, he was very much a 30's style Fascist. It is interesting to note Coughlin's support for "wealth redistribution through taxation of the wealthy" and the "government controlling the country's assets for public good." Those ideas have a lot of support within the Obama administration today.

Those views are not socialist, they're authoritarian. You have to look not just at their tactics, but at the outcome they hope to achieve. In the case of Coughlin and Von Brunn, taking control of the economy is a tactic with the purpose of making sure the race remains pure. That's the real bottom line for many fascist groups -- the fear of miscegenation.

247 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:36:47am

re: #241 Thanos

/pimf: Republicanism is OK too !

I'd stick with Capitalism and Conservatism, Republicanism seems intent on pushing it's own sharia with ID and such.

248 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:37:10am

re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't see him sitting in a black church.

there is so much overlap and commingling of anger w/ these rabid haters.
rev wrong has a lot to offer von brunn. maybe private lessons in jew and amerikkka hating, if he can't get over his anti-black sentiments.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:37:51am

re: #229 tradewind

Not only did von brunn take a valuable life in its prime, he could very well have had a shot go astray and kill or wound children or students visiting the Museum. The guard, Tyrone, died a hero in my opinion.

I think if von Brunn had not been stopped at the door he would have kept going, and many other lives might have been lost.

I keep thinking of Chaim Smadar, the grocery store security guard in Israel who stopped Ayat Akhras from taking her suicide belt into the store. He was Tunisian, a native Arabic speaker. When he realized what was going on, reports are that he blocked her and and told her, "You're not going in. We will both blow up together out here." He and a young woman coming out of the store were killed, but he saved lives, lots of them.

I hope the museum sets up some kind of permanent memorial on the site for Mr. Johns.

250 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:37:53am

re: #231 Ben Hur

Journalism graduate

251 1SG(ret)  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:37:57am

re: #223 planetdan

That means Rev. Wright is a right winger. Who would have ever thought that circle would have been completed. Now, where does Pres "O" fit. I'm confused now!

252 jorline  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:38:20am

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way.

I place von Brunn, Scott Roeder and jihadist all in the same category.
They're all terrorist inflicting their judgment, punishment and way of life on others.

Just read what this asshole has to say about Roeders actions.

Dave Leach, a pro-life activist in Iowa, said Roeder subscribed to his newsletter, Prayer and Action News, and once left a message on it comparing Tiller to Nazi war criminal Josef Mengele.

Referring to Tiller's death, Leach said Monday: "To call this a crime is too simplistic ... there is Christian scripture that would support this."


Killing of Kansas doctor renews emotional debate about abortion in the U.S.

No shortage of nuts on both the left and right.

253 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:38:22am

re: #238 pre-Boomer Marine brat

This'll fuel the formation of anti-Taliban lashkars. If the Pak Army's smart, it'll intensify big time its support of those tribesmen.

If the Indians are smart, they'll pull large numbers of front-line troops back from the border and call in a third party (NOT the U.N. fer g*d's sake) to monitor the stand-down.

If properly used by their opponents, these attacks against other Muslims could even be the essential death-knell of the Taliban as an organised, effective, fighting force.

/not rosey-tinted glasses ... just seeing hopeful signs on LWJ

You won't see an Indian pull back. They are there nowadays mostly to keep the Kashmiri terrorists out, and they aren't going to pull back from that. The stance on Siachen is mostly symbolic, the troops are really there to keep the terrorists at bay.

254 MPH  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:39:26am

In defense of Biswanger, he's been arguing for years that fascism and communism share the same common collectivist roots -- and to place them on opposite sides of the political spectrum leaves no room for an individualist-minded politics. I know what Glenn Beck is trying to do here, and it is what Charles describes above -- but Biswanger's general logic is fine.

Ayn Rand describes racism in the following way:

Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

Racism claims that the content of a man’s mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content) is inherited; that a man’s convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. This is the caveman’s version of the doctrine of innate ideas—or of inherited knowledge—which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science. Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men.

Like every form of determinism, racism invalidates the specific attribute which distinguishes man from all other living species: his rational faculty. Racism negates two aspects of man’s life: reason and choice, or mind and morality, replacing them with chemical predestination.

255 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:39:41am
256 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:39:43am

re: #247 FurryOldGuyJeans

:) I was referring to our form of government

257 soxfan4life  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:39:46am

re: #252 jorline

No shortage of nuts on both the left and right.


Isn't that the sad truth

258 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:39:51am

Washington Post today reports that Stephen Johns, the guard murdered by this sick creep, had literally opened the door and held it for him, assuming he was just another senior citizen who could use a hand.

And then, Von Brunn raised a rifle and shot him in the chest at point-blank range.

Cold-blooded evil.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:40:09am

re: #236 Thanos

The racists and racialists want to bring the wars of Europe to the US. We won't stand for socialism, we won't stand for marxism, and we won't stand for nazism or fascism. Europe's history of war between the red and the black is a horrid 300 year history, and I sure don't want that coming here. Piss on all the big ideology "isms" with the exception of Capitalism.

"It's not that I condone fascism. Or any ism, for that matter. Isms, in my opinion, are not good. A person should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon; 'I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.' Good point. And he was the Walrus. I could be the Walrus, I'd still have to bum rides off of people."

Ferris Bueller, ladies and gentlemen.

260 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:41:11am

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

I keep thinking of Chaim Smadar, the grocery store security guard in Israel who stopped Ayat Akhras from taking her suicide belt into the store. He was Tunisian, a native Arabic speaker. When he realized what was going on, reports are that he blocked her and and told her, "You're not going in. We will both blow up together out here." He and a young woman coming out of the store were killed, but he saved lives, lots of them.

Greater love hath no man.

Wow.

261 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:41:14am

re: #246 Charles

Those views are not socialist, they're authoritarian. You have to look not just at their tactics, but at the outcome they hope to achieve. In the case of Coughlin and Von Brunn, taking control of the economy is a tactic with the purpose of making sure the race remains pure. That's the real bottom line for many fascist groups. -- the fear of miscegenation.

I agree. Coughlin was a 30's style Fascist. There are some policies which are common to Fascists & socialist or Marxists, but there are also significant differences. Coughlin was virulently anti-communist, blaming it on the Jews, of course. The foundation of it all is racial hatred.

I was charmed to learn he was born in Canada, btw.

262 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:41:34am

re: #244 Ben Hur

Me?

I don't give a shit what he was, but I don't think a leftist would hit the Holocaust Museum.

The left LOVES the image of the weak Jew.

They HATE the image, and reality, of the non-victim strong Jew.

I think a leftist would PICKET the Holocaust Museum.

Which is quite different, of course.

263 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:41:37am

re: #253 Thanos

You won't see an Indian pull back. They are there nowadays mostly to keep the Kashmiri terrorists out, and they aren't going to pull back from that. The stance on Siachen is mostly symbolic, the troops are really there to keep the terrorists at bay.

Yeah, I thought about Kashmir as I wrote that.
Decided to keep it simple (hopefully not simple-minded.)

I do wonder (in ignorance) if there's something the Indians could do.

264 Altermite  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:41:38am

re: #231 Ben Hur

An artist, huh? We should probably start rounding those up then.
/

265 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:41:48am

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

266 tradewind  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:42:09am

It sounds very much as if Von Brunn may have also been trying to pull off a suicide-by-cop ending to his own miserable existence.

267 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:42:18am
268 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:42:41am

re: #245 slokat

And, his mother is praying that Brunn will be able to recover and learn to give up his hatred...

She looks so young to have a son nearly forty. A lovely woman. And with that much love in her heart, no wonder her son was such a mensch.

269 Ben Hur  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:42:43am

re: #258 Occasional Reader

Washington Post today reports that Stephen Johns, the guard murdered by this sick creep, had literally opened the door and held it for him, assuming he was just another senior citizen who could use a hand.

And then, Von Brunn raised a rifle and shot him in the chest at point-blank range.

Cold-blooded evil.

For some reason the vision of him seeing a black man opening the door of a Holocaust Museum reminds me of this:

The Jew is using the black as muscle against you. And you are left there helpless. Well, what are you going to do about it, whitey? Just sit there? ...

/Illinois Nazi. Blues Brothers.

270 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #261 Kenneth

I was charmed to learn he was born in Canada, btw.

That explains his flapping head.

/

271 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:42:56am
272 slokat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:43:10am

So how about the hip, moderates that support the palis, don't think Israel has the right to exist, distrust banks & free enterprise, but love big government?

They are mainstream in politics, right now and have control in many areas.

Are they extreme moderates?

/personally I vote for delusional

273 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:43:30am

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

No.

274 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:43:34am

re: #215 subsailor68

I'd go with the Declaration of Independence.

;-)

They were a bunch of rich white guys who didn't want to pay their taxes! :)

275 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:44:06am

re: #256 Thanos

:) I was referring to our form of government

Then that would be Democratic-Republicanism.

/ nit-pick off ;)

276 RadCap  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:44:13am

When the definition of 'right' or 'right wing' is so broad that it includes:

radical antisemite
authoritarianism
“master race” ideology
pure racist
international banking conspiracies
the Illuminati

then it has become useless as a definition. In fact, the exclusion of these things from the definition of 'left' or 'left wing' seems designed to make the very concept 'right' nothing more than a pejorative term.

When one speaks of 'extremists' of the left, one is speaking of principles held by the left which have been taken *to* their extreme. So what principles held by the right is it claimed are being 'taken to their extreme' here?

What principles held by the right lead to radical antisemitism?
What principles held by the right lead to authoritarianism?
What principles held by the right lead to "master race" ideology?
What principles held by the right lead to pure 'white' racism?
What principles held by the right lead to international banking conspiracies?
What principles held by the right lead to beliefs about the Illuminati?

Furthermore, how do the principles held by the left NOT lead to any of these things?

It seems someone has accepted a definition of 'right' and 'right-wing' which is nothing more than a smear against the right.
--
Note to those who have claimed the argument here is a result of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy: definitions can and must be defined objectively. As it stands, it appears the definition of 'right' and 'right-wing' is being defined quite subjectively here. In other words, an arbitrary definition is being put forth. Correcting an arbitrary definition is not a fallacy. Adhering to an arbitrary definition is the fallacy.

277 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:44:19am

re: #258 Occasional Reader

Washington Post today reports that Stephen Johns, the guard murdered by this sick creep, had literally opened the door and held it for him, assuming he was just another senior citizen who could use a hand.

And then, Von Brunn raised a rifle and shot him in the chest at point-blank range.

Cold-blooded evil.

(warily eyeing the pipe wrench in the distance)

An ant hill.
Small ants.
They take only very tiny bites.

/slowly ... slowly ... slowly

278 Ben Hur  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:44:23am

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC


Will change nothing under the surface.

/Ben Hur

279 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:44:29am

re: #40 Iron Fist

I'm a conservative with some libertarian leanings. I favor a strong national defense. I support Israel. I understand that radical Muslims attacked us on 9/11, and that the attacks were based upon their religious beliefs. On immigration, I think existing U.S. law (1986 Graham-Bliley) should be enforced before we liberalize the immigration laws further. I agree with the recent Supreme Court decision on Second Amendment gun rights. I'm intrigued by the argument that the Second Amendment applies only to the federal government, and not to the states. (The well-regulated militias, after all, are creatures of state law, not of federal. In an environment where the federal government is out of control, state government becomes more important.) You probably would characterize my views as right-center.

I have no problem condemning Nazis, fascists, communists, and socialists. I'm not one of them, so I'm not offended by attacks on them.

280 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:44:38am

re: #257 soxfan4life

No shortage of nuts on both the left and right.

Isn't that the sad truth

And not enough squirrels. *sigh*

281 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:44:41am

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

Is he stomping his widdle foot?

282 subsailor68  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:44:53am

re: #274 Mad Al-Jaffee

LOL! Now that's funny! Well done!

283 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:45:16am

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

WOO HOO!

(I think... I hope Mousavi doesn't just prove to be even worse, a wolf in sheep's clothing... and I can't get over the feeling that the whole thing is a puppet show anyway, put on by the mullahs.)

284 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:45:22am
285 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:45:23am

re: #270 Occasional Reader

That explains his flapping head.

/

You coming to the barbecue? We got meat!

286 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:45:28am

re: #252 jorline

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way.

I place von Brunn, Scott Roeder and jihadist all in the same category.
They're all terrorist inflicting their judgment, punishment and way of life on others.

Just read what this asshole has to say about Roeders actions.


Killing of Kansas doctor renews emotional debate about abortion in the U.S.

No shortage of nuts on both the left and right.

You're not alone. Someone who goes to enforce their personal vision with a gun has more in common with anyone else who will do that than with any person on his particular political spectrum who wouldn't.

287 Digital Display  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #281 MandyManners

Is he stomping his widdle foot?


I can't any news outfit reporting he lost..Maybe somebody can link one?

288 MPH  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:46:04am

re: #251 1SG(ret)

That means Rev. Wright is a right winger. Who would have ever thought that circle would have been completed. Now, where does Pres "O" fit. I'm confused now!

At the ends of the spectrum, there is really no difference. This is essentially Biswanger's point, but Beck was attempting to exploit it to fit in with his unfounded criticism of the DHS report.

Read Abe Greenwald today:

Okay, Then Be Vigilant
[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]


At almost the same moment Barack Obama reminded the nation that “we must remain vigilant against anti-Semitism and prejudice in all its forms,” the president’s ex-pastor and spiritual confidante, Jeremiah Wright, made the point that “them Jews ain’t going to let him talk to me.”

Obama did say anti-Semitism in all its forms, didn’t he? After all, the Jeremiah Wright variety of Jew hatred is far more common than the octogenarian gunman type. Well, this was Obama’s idea of “vigilan[ce]” in March of 2008, after Wright’s radicalism was exposed:

He said Rev. Wright “is like an old uncle who says things I don’t always agree with,” telling a Jewish group that everyone has someone like that in their family.

Does everyone also have someone like James W. von Brunn in their family? Von Brunn is the 88-year-old who walked into the Holocaust Memorial Museum with a rifle yesterday and opened fire, killing the guard Stephen T. Johns. I ask the question because according to Obama’s logic of March 2008 the answer is a simple yes. Obama’s eccentric “uncle” believes that the U.S. government invented the AIDS virus to destroy black people. Von Brunn maintains the mirror-image fiction: the Jews have launched a conspiracy to destroy the “white gene pool.” Von Brunn maintains, “Bit by bit government institutions and Congressmen fell into Jew hands.” Can those be any other than the same hands that Jeremiah Wright sees blocking his path to the president? Wright published a piece in his church newsletter claiming Israelis had devised an “ethnic bomb” capable of killing only Arabs and blacks. Von Brunn wrote a book that “exposes the Jews and explains what you must do to protect your White family.” That bomb was apparently more sophisticated than originally thought.

Read the rest...

289 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:46:07am
290 CommonCents  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:46:08am

re: #34 blangwort

Whether he is a far-right wing or far-left wing nut is almost irrelevant.

The fact: he is a wing nut.

Careful with the wing nut references. Especially today. [see avatar]

291 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:46:31am

re: #272 slokat

So how about the hip, moderates that support the palis, don't think Israel has the right to exist, distrust banks & free enterprise, but love big government?

They are mainstream in politics, right now and have control in many areas.

Are they extreme moderates?

/personally I vote for delusional

That pretty much describes the anti-Semites that I see in my extremely liberal city.

292 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:46:38am

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

The Mullahs have yet to vote, so he can still win.

293 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:47:31am

re: #245 slokat

And, his mother is praying that Brunn will be able to recover and learn to give up his hatred...

Wow. Source?

That's just... staggering. I ain't much fer churchgoin' er nuthin', but the phrase "the imitation of Christ" comes to mind (planted in my brain by those Jebbies, I suppose).

294 1SG(ret)  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:47:49am

re: #266 tradewind

Then I hope the scum-sucker survives. Best punishment I can hope for is that he lives to be 100 in the slammer-getting slamed!

295 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:47:53am

re: #283 Occasional Reader

WOO HOO!

(I think... I hope Mousavi doesn't just prove to be even worse, a wolf in sheep's clothing... and I can't get over the feeling that the whole thing is a puppet show anyway, put on by the mullahs.)

the mullahs control everything. they just have a new mouth piece.

296 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #284 Iron Fist

The only real differences between Socialism and Communism are enthusiasm and gulags.

297 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:47:58am
298 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:48:06am

re: #281 MandyManners

Is he stomping his widdle foot?

And does this mean they take away his Members Only jacket?

299 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:48:35am

re: #220 MandyManners

I was referring to the stuff about Khazars, the Illuminati and the like.

None of this is new, Mandy. Ickes and Co. are recycling ideas that were discredited and forgotten.

The only interesting, new-ish stuff is the reptilian alien overlords. It's not as new and different as all that - I can make some interesting analogies with some of the stranger rhetoric of various anti-heresy writers and more fringe-type thinking of the Reformation - but it's a breath of fresh air in the claustrophobic world of conspiracy theory.

300 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:48:53am

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

DAMN, I hope that holds up!

301 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:49:07am

re: #254 MPH

Tribes were the earliest forms of authoritarian socialism as well. The Communist tribe is based on ideological collectivism, while the fascist tribes are based on ethnicity for the most part. The divide between them and the reason they hate each other is that each of those definitions of "tribe" deny the other. In the end Fascists could care less about the form of gov't as long as it protects tribal purity. This is why so many Birchers and Ronulans profess to be capitalists. If you scrape the surface off however you find they are not true capitalists: they are populist isolationists. (close the borders, shut down free trade agreements, kookspiracies to stop the fabled "north american union" etc. )

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:49:13am

re: #283 Occasional Reader

WOO HOO!

(I think... I hope Mousavi doesn't just prove to be even worse, a wolf in sheep's clothing... and I can't get over the feeling that the whole thing is a puppet show anyway, put on by the mullahs.)

Remember, none of these guys is on our side, and none of them have that much power.

But still, I don't mind seeing Dinnerjacket lose. And I rather like Mrs. Mousavi.

303 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:49:37am

Japan Probes Report Two Seized With Undeclared Bonds (Update2)
By Shunichi Ozasa and Makiko Kitamura

June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Japan is investigating reports two of its citizens were detained in Italy after allegedly attempting to take $134 billion worth of U.S. bonds over the border into Switzerland.

“Italian authorities are in the midst of the investigation, and haven’t yet confirmed the details, including whether they are Japanese citizens or not,” Takeshi Akamatsu, a spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, said by telephone today in Tokyo. “Our consulate in Milan is continuing efforts to confirm the reports.”

304 freedomplow  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:49:42am

Everything this asshole stands for is everything I hate.

Sorry, I am not going to allow him or anyone else to label him as right wing.

305 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:49:58am

re: #284 Iron Fist

There is a legitimate distinction between democratic socialists and authoritarian socialists. Western Europe is largely democratic socialist, but their power is contested by democratic opposition. The "communism" of the Soviet Union was authoritarian socialism, where no dissent, or democratic opposition, was tolerated.

The economics of democratic socialists is drastically wrong, but they don't resort to murder, imprisonment, and torture of their political opponents.

306 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:50:06am

re: #285 Kenneth

You coming to the barbecue? We got meat!

whut th' hell is THAT dang deal?

307 J.S.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:50:09am

re: #170 Shiplord Kirel

The Southern Democrats (many of whom were avowed racists) may be called "populists", but that does not negate the fact that they were Democrats. George Wallace (the segregationist) ran on the Democratic Ticket to become President of the United States. He was a Democrat...And, Pat Buchanan is, today, a Republican. These are the facts -- and no amount of "revisionist" thinking is going to change "the facts." Both parties have had (or continue to have) certain "elements" which many may find objectionable...

308 KenJen  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:50:29am

Everyone in the media is so focused on putting this guy in a catagory(esp. the right winger catagory). I wish they would focus more on the fact that this country has had three acts of domestic terrosim in two weeks. Personally I wish they wouldn't refer to Brunn by his name. He should be called the terroist who killed Stephen Johns.

309 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:51:04am

re: #246 Charles

Those views are not socialist, they're authoritarian. You have to look not just at their tactics, but at the outcome they hope to achieve. In the case of Coughlin and Von Brunn, taking control of the economy is a tactic with the purpose of making sure the race remains pure. That's the real bottom line for many fascist groups. -- the fear of miscegenation.

I've always wondered about the depth of sexual insecurity revealed in that sort of ... I can't really call it thought.

310 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:51:05am

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

I guess Mahmoud will have to change his name to Badmood.

Fundamental political lession -- BO will PO the voters.

311 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:51:36am

re: #263 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah, I thought about Kashmir as I wrote that.
Decided to keep it simple (hopefully not simple-minded.)

I do wonder (in ignorance) if there's something the Indians could do.

The only thing they can do is continue to negotiate and send assurances. I noticed the rhetoric has calmed down over Kasab trial, and there haven't been any serious cross border firing incidents between the army units in years. (they used to regularly fire artillery at each other.)

312 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:52:23am
313 Truck Monkey  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:52:25am

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

Maybe the Iranians are starting to unclench? All praise be to The Teleprompter Jesus. If it wasn't for the Cairo speech none of this would have happened.

///

314 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:52:30am

re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist

My mother volunteers at the Holocaust Museum. I'll have to ask her if she knew Johns when she gets back from vacation.

I turned 39 a few weeks ago. I'm sure if she knew him this will make it even harder on her.

315 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:52:32am

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMN, I hope that holds up!

CNBC just repeated it again, Ahmadinejad lost, and attributed it to Reuters.

/damned if I can find a link though

316 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:52:41am

re: #288 MPH

Rev. Wright “is like an old uncle who says things I don’t always agree with,” - Obama.

Notice that Obama didn't say that he didn't agree with everything Rev. Wright said. Obama says he didn't always agree with thing Wright said. Sometimes Obama would agree with Wright, but when it was politically inconvenient, Obama would disagree.

317 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:52:53am

Iranians vote in droves, rival victory claims
By Parisa Hafezi and Zahra Hosseinian

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his main moderate challenger both claimed to be leading in a hotly-contested election in Iran on Friday.

Millions of Iranians streamed to polling stations, causing voting to be extended by four hours to 10 p.m. (1730 GMT) to allow more people to cast ballots, the Interior Ministry said.

Sadegh Kharazi, a senior backer of former Prime Minister Mirhossein Mousavi, said surveys made by reformers showed that Mousavi was getting about 58-60 percent of the votes.

But an Ahmadinejad representative, Ali Asghar Zarei, said the incumbent was ahead with about the same level of support, the semi-official Mehr News Agency reported.

318 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:53:46am

re: #314 Mad Al-Jaffee

My mother volunteers at the Holocaust Museum. I'll have to ask her if she knew Johns when she gets back from vacation.

I turned 39 a few weeks ago. I'm sure if she knew him this will make it even harder on her.

I'm so sorry. This is always so sad and scary when one of these hits close to home.

319 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:53:57am

Thus far, I view Obama as leaning toward authoritarian collectivism. Until he starts rounding up his political opponents, however, you can't be sure. (There's still a dispute over whether auto dealerships have been targeted based upon their politics. I think the evidence contradictory, but if targeting were proven, it would be further evidence that Obama is an authoritarian.)

320 Digital Display  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:54:14am

re: #315 Killian Bundy

CNBC just repeated it again, Ahmadinejad lost, and attributed it to Reuters.

/damned if I can find a link though


I've been looking everywhere... Did stumble across cbc.com...Pretty cool japanese gaming site...
Going looking some more

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:54:21am

re: #315 Killian Bundy

CNBC just repeated it again, Ahmadinejad lost, and attributed it to Reuters.

/damned if I can find a link though

Wait, Achmedinejad says Reuters made him lose?

//

322 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:54:40am

re: #311 Thanos

The only thing they can do is continue to negotiate and send assurances. I noticed the rhetoric has calmed down over Kasab trial, and there haven't been any serious cross border firing incidents between the army units in years. (they used to regularly fire artillery at each other.)

How much did that influence the Pak Army's decision to send troops back to the west? (After beefing up the border after Mumbai?)

323 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:54:40am

re: #312 Iron Fist

That is based on a decision called United States v. Cruikshank. It was decided the way it was during Reconstruction (from the Civil War) in order to let the States and even KKK harass and violate the rights of freed slaves.

It would be WILDLY amusing to watch a lawyer for a liberal policy group (the Brady Bunch, or whoever) engage in oral argument as to why that particular rationale should be upheld.

324 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:55:03am

re: #298 Occasional Reader

And does this mean they take away his Members Only jacket?

And, give him a tie?

325 Lincolntf  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:55:17am

re: #296 Kenneth

Not sure I get that. I might agree, but I'm a bit confused.

The USSR was a "Socialist" state and implemented gulags. China and North Korea are Communist and also implement gulags. There are many other examples in Africa and Asia of governments assuming one or the other mantle, but the end results are always the same: poverty, torture and death for the citizenry.

The separation between Socialism and Communism only exists in textbooks. In reality they end up being the same thing.

326 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:55:28am

re: #254 MPH

It's one of the reasons why a straight-line political spectrum fails. I prefer to use a grid with two axes. One axis is collectivism-individualism (what many in the US typically see as left-right), and the other axis is tribe-class (more European right-left). On the plot, fascists tend to be tribal collectivists while socialists tend to be classist collectivists. Different ends, but they use the collectivism to get there. Both are distinctly antithetical to the founding traditions in America, but very much at home in Europe. In fact, one could say that European politics is all about class and tribe and not the individual while American politics deals with all three.

327 A.W.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:55:29am

Charles

I won't call him leftist, but he's not exactly a rightwinger either. When a guy says socialism is the future of the west (and he means it in a good way), considered attacking the weekly standard, hates Bush, neocons, christians... well, we are well outside our typical left/right dynamic, aren't we?

And anti-semitism is not the exclusive province of the right as you yourself have documented. look at jim moran or cindy sheehan.

I think everyone trying to blame the right wing or the left wing for it, are off their rocker. but the anti-semites on the other hand, of all political stripes, bear some moral responsibility here.

328 swamprat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:55:48am

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

Wait, Achmedinejad says Reuters made him lose?

//


Can't be. The Media is always unbiased.

329 guftafs  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56:18am

Of course he's a neo-Nazi but their resurgence and that of similar groups (such as it is) has been been made much easier by the New Lefts acceptance of racism (='ethnicity', minority racism). The White Nationalists have caught on and are explicitly emulating their rhetoric ('group rights', affirmative action, etc.).

330 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56:31am

Obama ousts AmeriCorps' IG who investigated friend
By ANN SANNER and PETE YOST, Associated Press Writers Ann Sanner And Pete Yost, Associated Press Writers – 1 hr 19 mins ago

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama says he has lost confidence in the inspector general who investigates AmeriCorps and other national service programs and has told Congress he is removing him from the position.

Obama's move follows an investigation by IG Gerald Walpin finding misuse of federal grants by a nonprofit education group led by Sacramento Mayor Kevin Johnson, who is an Obama supporter and former NBA basketball star.

Walpin was criticized by the acting U.S. attorney in Sacramento for the way he handled the investigation of Johnson and St. HOPE Academy, a nonprofit group that received hundreds of thousands of dollars in federal grants from the Corporation for National and Community Service, which runs the AmeriCorps program.

St. HOPE Academy ended up repaying more than $400,000 in government funds.

331 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56:37am

I think President Obama must be given full credit for his role in influencing the Iranian elections, regardless of their outcome. In fact, he should be dispatched to every foreign country in which an election is being held to influence its outcome. ;-)

332 swamprat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56:55am

re: #324 MandyManners

Somewhere, a "Ken" doll is missing a suit.

333 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56:59am

re: #315 Killian Bundy

CNBC just repeated it again, Ahmadinejad lost, and attributed it to Reuters.

/damned if I can find a link though

No mention of it on the Beeb's scrolling "Latest" line

334 jorline  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:57:03am

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

Best news of the day...is dinnerjackets fist clenched?

335 LC LaWedgie  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:57:22am

re: #283 Occasional Reader

The mullahs will continue do their own deals, build their own nukes, no matter what mahdi sits in the chair.

336 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:57:45am

re: #312 Iron Fist

That is based on a decision called United States v. Cruikshank. It was decided the way it was during Reconstruction (from the Civil War) in order to let the States and even KKK harass and violate the rights of freed slaves. To be honest, I'm appalled that it hasn't been overturned on those grounds regardless of the Second Amendment ramifications of the case.

I think it will be overturned. The 9th Circuit apparently feels the same way, as they have incorperated the Second under the Fourteenth. I want to see what that does for gun control in the People's Republik of Kalifornia. It should, IMHO, throw most of it out as unconstitutional. That will be facinating to watch if it happens.

A lot of gun control laws were originally for the purpose of keeping black people from arming themselves against such as the KKK.

337 guftafs  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:57:59am

re: #329 guftafs

... not merely the acceptance of racism from the New Left but the active propagating and working for it being spread, accepted and politically implemented.

338 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:58:08am

re: #290 CommonCents

Careful with the wing nut references. Especially today. [see avatar]

Speaking of which, I'm coming out as anti-penguin today. ;-)

339 slokat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:58:23am

re: #293 Occasional Reader

Wow. Source?

That's just... staggering. I ain't much fer churchgoin' er nuthin', but the phrase "the imitation of Christ" comes to mind (planted in my brain by those Jebbies, I suppose).

In the article quoted above, I went back and reread it, she says hope actually (not pray). I guess my brain translated the pose in her picture...

340 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:58:26am
341 Randall Gross  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:58:29am

re: #322 pre-Boomer Marine brat

How much did that influence the Pak Army's decision to send troops back to the west? (After beefing up the border after Mumbai?)

I think they just put some forces forward as part of the worry cycle, Zardari's stated that he won't be pulling troops off the border about three or four times in recent months. The beefing up is now pretty much back to normal. There's been a few rumors, but those were all driven by what turned out to be normal troop rotations.

342 A.W.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:58:32am

[Link: althouse.blogspot.com...]

That right wing ideologue ann althouse doubts that the guy was a right winger.

343 ointmentfly  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:59:10am

re: #327 A.W.

Charles

I won't call him leftist, but he's not exactly a rightwinger either. When a guy says socialism is the future of the west (and he means it in a good way), considered attacking the weekly standard, hates Bush, neocons, christians... well, we are well outside our typical left/right dynamic, aren't we?

And anti-semitism is not the exclusive province of the right as you yourself have documented. look at jim moran or cindy sheehan.

I think everyone trying to blame the right wing or the left wing for it, are off their rocker. but the anti-semites on the other hand, of all political stripes, bear some moral responsibility here.

He was a right winger in so much as he wanted less government in the form of the Jews that supposedly control it. Apart from that, I think he was a barely functioning schizophrenic

344 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:59:34am

Haaretz's scrolling "Latest" says supporters of both are claiming victory.

/maybe Reuters jumped the gun?

345 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:59:49am
346 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:00:15pm

re: #325 Lincolntf

The USSR was Communist, but they did use the word "Socialist". My comment was about the difference between Marxists (USSR, China, Cuba, etc) and western Socialist parties (UK Labour Party, Canadian NDP, French Socialists, ect.)

347 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:00:28pm

Apparently they kept the polls open an extra 4 hours to accommodate voter turnout.

348 subsailor68  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:00:41pm

Dear Mr. President,

Before you "re-design" all those GM and Chrysler cars, you may want to have a chat with the folks at Ford:

Five People Miraculously Survive Plane's Head-On Collision With SUV

The Ford SUV, carrying three people, was travelling in the opposite direction when the two-seater Piper Cherokee crashed into it before bursting into flames, South African newspaper The Times reports.

Pictures from the scene show the Piper demolished and burning, while only the engine bay of the car appeared to be damaged.

349 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:00:56pm

re: #336 Son of the Black Dog

A lot of gun control laws were originally for the purpose of keeping black people from arming themselves against such as the KKK.

And needless to say, this murder is already being churned by the usual suspects as an argument for more gun control.

The fact that the murder weapon was (from what I'm reading) a 70 year old Winchester .22 rifle, not a scary "assault weapon" or a handgun, might make it a bit harder for them to make their case, though.

350 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:01:23pm

re: #325 Lincolntf

Not sure I get that. I might agree, but I'm a bit confused.

The USSR was a "Socialist" state and implemented gulags. China and North Korea are Communist and also implement gulags. There are many other examples in Africa and Asia of governments assuming one or the other mantle, but the end results are always the same: poverty, torture and death for the citizenry.

The separation between Socialism and Communism only exists in textbooks. In reality they end up being the same thing.

The USSR fits the textbook definition of Communist. It was "socialist" in name only, but that is meaningless. We aren't calling North Korea a democracy or a republic just because its name is the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"

351 A.W.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:01:43pm

mmm, not clear who won in iran.

And honestly i am ambivalent. if we replace a rabid, idiotic despot snarling that he wants jews wiped off the face of the map, with a milder sounding guy who won't foam at the mouth, but will still drop the bomb on tel aviv, is that better or worse?

I am reminded of Malcolm X's comparison of northern racists (in his time) with southern racists. he said the southern racist was like a wolf. you knew he was a wolf. you knew he was dangerous. you watched your step. but the northern racist is like a fox. you don't realize he is a danger until you are half-swallowed.

352 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:01:49pm
353 avanti  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:01:52pm

Mousavi claims he is the winner in Iran, official results in a few hours.

354 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:01:58pm

re: #334 jorline

Too bad the Iranian elections are a sham. The opposition to the mullahs was banned years ago. I think Ahmadinejad has become so well known, and so hated, internationally, that the mullahs calculate they can buy a couple of more years by replacing him with a new face with the same basic theocratic policies.

Remember, the Islamic Republic of Iran is the first true theocracy in Islam.

355 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:02:16pm

re: #332 swamprat

Somewhere, a "Ken" doll is missing a suit.

ROFLMAO!

356 LC LaWedgie  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:02:27pm

re: #307 J.S.

Just goes to show that not all Democrats are liberals and not all Republicans are conservatives.

357 Lincolntf  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:02:30pm

re: #346 Kenneth

I get it. It's just that the titles "Communist" and "Socialist" are so often deliberately confused (not in the way you meant, but in the way they actually impact citizens) that when one is proffered as an improvement over the other I blanch.

358 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:02:53pm

re: #349 Occasional Reader

Toles is a tool.

There was a discussion in dcist.com yesterday about gun control and the shooting. Lots of anti-gun people there, but a couple of level-headed commenters posted some things to counter alll of their paranoid rants.

359 J.D.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:02:53pm

re: #348 subsailor68

That is absolutely incredible.

360 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:03:01pm

re: #344 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Haaretz's scrolling "Latest" says supporters of both are claiming victory.

/maybe Reuters jumped the gun?

Hell- there are already claims of rigged voting.

361 Lincolntf  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:03:08pm

re: #350 Kosh's Shadow

I totally get it.

362 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:03:19pm

re: #351 A.W.

if we replace a rabid, idiotic despot snarling that he wants jews wiped off the face of the map, with a milder sounding guy who won't foam at the mouth, but will still drop the bomb on tel aviv, is that better or worse?

That's a very good question.

Best case: This might represent a beginning of a crack in the facade of the theocracy, even if the mullahs think they're pulling the strings. Kind of like Gorby thought he was completely in the pilot's seat circa 1988.

363 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:03:20pm

re: #335 LC LaWedgie

For the record, the newly elected President of Iran used to be the Premier of Iran (they got rid of that position) when Iran started their secret nuke program. This election won't make any difference.

364 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:03:24pm

re: #353 avanti

Mousavi claims he is the winner in Iran, official results in a few hours.

From what little I'm finding out yonder, I think it's too early.
Reuters ran with Mousavi's announcement.

365 CommonCents  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:03:36pm

re: #317 FurryOldGuyJeans

causing voting to be extended by four hours to 10 p.m. (1730 GMT) to allow more people to cast ballots

It's easier to stuff the box after dark.

366 Drider  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:03:39pm

All this hooey about this guy being a "right wing" extremist is just a term used by those who parrot the media's talking points.
Ill name Schnitt of The Schnitt show and MJ Morning show as one of the biggest buffoons in this regard being he let the term cross his lips, got called out on it and then seemingly mulled it in his mind overnight and came back the next day to carry on with his idiotic statement, using David Duke as his proof as if there was some kind of correlation between the two.

This shooter "hated" much to do with the right wing, was a major bigot and I sincerely doubt the beliefs of life, liberty and personal exceptionalisim we're going through his mind when he shot that guard, or at any time before that.
You could make connections to the left due to the "Jew hating" mindset the idiot was in, heck, make a list of any left wing sights...throw a dart and you will find Jew haters.
In the end all the guy was, was a demented idiot who would cast his weight behind any party who "didn't" have a black or Jewish candidate....thats pretty much the entire scope of his beliefs.

367 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:03:42pm

re: #360 Sharmuta

Hell- there are already claims of rigged voting.

Was Jimmah Cahtah watching the election?

368 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:04:10pm

re: #352 Iron Fist

I'd like to see Eric Holder himself defend United States v. Cruikshank.

Oh, man... I didn't even think of that. Perfect!

369 brookly red  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:04:22pm

re: #353 avanti

Mousavi claims he is the winner in Iran, official results in a few hours.

When you have a "Supreme Leader" that is a mullah does it really matter who wins?

370 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:04:23pm
371 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:04:26pm

re: #353 avanti

Mousavi claims he is the winner in Iran, official results in a few hours.

so does Short-shit:

Ahmadinejad claims victory after Iran's polling stations are kept open

372 LC LaWedgie  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:04:50pm

re: #342 A.W.

The first line about him in MSNBC's story was that he was a "frustrated artist" -- smells pretty left to me. (stereotypically speaking)

373 J.S.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:04:51pm

re: #351 A.W.

I suspect that this will be "bad news" for those who may wish to stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. It'll look like Iran has suddenly "gone all moderate." (as I scoff). Then, their "moderation" will be spun as a "triumph" of Obama's...etc., etc.

374 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:04:55pm

re: #340 Iron Fist

You're misreading it, just a bit.

AS always asks why the Russians didn't resist; he cites a few cases where the Rabbit, rather than bleating, "Who? Me? What have I done?" would (as one woman did) cling to a lamp-post and yell that they were trying to take her away.

A crowd gathered, and the Chekists ran away.

But mostly, when the Chekists came for a person, that person turned into a Rabbit, and bleated "Why me?!" instead of resisting. And because there would be two officers - or more - the individual didn't fight.

375 redstateredneck  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:05:08pm

re: #354 quickjustice

Remember, the Islamic Republic of Iran is the first true theocracy in Islam.


Thank you, Jimmy Carter

376 Scion9  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:05:21pm

Republicanism.

As long as we are citing pro and con "isms", I think Federalism is kind of keen too.

377 ointmentfly  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:05:25pm

re: #367 FurryOldGuyJeans

Was Jimmah Cahtah watching the election?


I wish Jimmah was in Iran.... Starting around 1979 would have been nice.

378 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:05:56pm

re: #365 CommonCents

It's easier to stuff the box after dark.

Why bother with stuffing when you can just issue a fatwa and declare a winner.

379 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:06:11pm

re: #360 Sharmuta

Hell- there are already claims of rigged voting.

It's Baseej-ly ordinary politics in the Islamic Republic.

/sorry, couldn't help it ... and fully expect MA's side to cheat like hell

380 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:06:13pm

re: #371 Kenneth

so does Short-shit:

Ahmadinejad claims victory after Iran's polling stations are kept open

Either way, it seems to me the Iranian people lose.

381 CommonCents  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:06:36pm

re: #338 Honorary Yooper

Speaking of which, I'm coming out as anti-penguin today. ;-)

I regret that I have but one upding to give.

382 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:06:46pm

re: #380 MrSilverDragon

Either way, it seems to me the Iranian people lose.

How do you say "don't blame me, I voted for Kodos" in Farsi?

383 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:07:14pm

re: #366 Drider

What part of hating marxists is left wing?

384 J.S.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:07:24pm

The Iranians will be playing Obama like a fiddle...

385 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:07:27pm

On the issue of racial purity: no black Americans are racially "pure". That's the unspoken legacy of slavery no one will discuss. It's also why Sharpton is a distant cousin of Cheney's.

386 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:07:39pm

re: #338 Honorary Yooper

Speaking of which, I'm coming out as anti-penguin today. ;-)

Hear, hear! We must take a firm stand against imperialism, including that of Emperor Penguins.

387 subsailor68  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:07:57pm

re: #377 ointmentfly

I wish Jimmah was in Iran.... Starting around 1979 would have been nice.

LOL! You know, after reading that, even the title of this story is deliciously ironic:

The Ransom Of Red Chief

;-)

388 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:08:18pm

House Health-Care Bill to Include $600 Billion in Tax Increases
By Laura Litvan

June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Health-care overhaul legislation being drafted by House Democrats will include $600 billion in tax increases and $400 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel said.

Democrats will work on the bill’s details next week as they struggle through “what kind of heartburn” it will cause to agree on how to pay for revamping the health-care system, Rangel, a New York Democrat, said today. He also said the measure’s cost will reach beyond the $634 billion President Barack Obama proposed in his budget request to Congress as a down payment for the policy changes.

Asked whether the cost of a health-care overhaul would be more than $1 trillion, Rangel said, “the answer is yes.”

House Democrats plan to release their legislation next week. Obama has made a health-care overhaul a top domestic priority and is working with Congress to get legislation to his desk by October.

389 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:08:24pm
390 jcm  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:08:27pm

re: #265 Killian Bundy

OT -- Breaking

Ahmadinejad loses.

/Reuters via CNBC

What I said this morning....The Mad Mullahs have already decided who will win.

My take:
Mousavi wins, that has a multitude of benefits for the Mad Mullahs. The are major benefits are:
1) The west, Obama in particular and the twits in Foggy Bottom see it as a new direction for Iran and soften their stances toward Iran. We'll see a few years of talk, talk, while the centrifuges spin.
2) It mollifies the youth for a little while, they'll expect changes coming and Mousavi will delivery some cosmetic reforms, but again it keeps the youths from throwing the Mullahs a neck tie party.

Elections in Iran are for shaping international perceptions of Iran, and keeping the Mad Mullahs in power.

391 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:08:38pm

re: #362 Occasional Reader

That's a very good question.

Best case: This might represent a beginning of a crack in the facade of the theocracy, even if the mullahs think they're pulling the strings. Kind of like Gorby thought he was completely in the pilot's seat circa 1988.

The mullahs completely vest the candidates before they can run. Besides, Mousavi "laid the framework for the nuclear program".

Due to his radical character and extremist remarks, Ahmadinejad helps garner world support for stopping the nuclear program. Due to his reformist and moderate image, Mousavi - who when he was prime minister from 1981 to 1989 helped lay the foundations of the country's atomic program - may succeed in "laundering" the program in a dialogue with the United States, the officials fear.
392 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:08:41pm

re: #338 Honorary Yooper

Speaking of which, I'm coming out as anti-penguin today. ;-)

Oh, I should have guessed. What a reactionary, right-wing approach. By favoring the northern polar bear over the southern penguin, you reinforce American society's ingrained racism.

The polar bear clearly signifies White, North and West centric paradigms. In its unbridled predatory aggression, it is a clear symbol of capitalism and economic colonialism. Polar bears travel alone, or in small family groups, emphasizing the individualist emphasis of Western culture, and the denial of the extended family. The black skin hidden under the white fur shows the marginalization and denial of people of color in the hegemonic imperialist paradigm, and the unwillingness of imperialist cultures to face their complex histories of oppression.

Penguins, in contrast, are indigenous to the Southern hemisphere. Their black and white coloring, with the black taking the greater area on the penguin, shows the mestizo heritage of the 'darker' hemisphere. Penguins exist in a communal society, and eat a sustainable high-fish diet. As has been demonstrated in recent news stories, mestizo penguin traditional society is also open to same-sex penguins, and queer penguin parenting. Long oppressed, kept out of history books, and hatefully misrepresented in stupid cartoons in which they are shown as the victim of the predatory polar bear, penguins are now telling their own stories, resisting the West, and participating in active revolutionary struggle.

Viva los pinguinos! Viva la revolucion!

(Who SAYS I wasted four years ina liberal arts college?)

/////

393 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:09:00pm

re: #386 Occasional Reader

Hear, hear! We must take a firm stand against imperialism, including that of Emperor Penguins.

That was indeed an Opus you wrote there!

394 debutaunt  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:09:10pm

re: #360 Sharmuta

Hell- there are already claims of rigged voting.

Al-Diebold machines!

395 RadCap  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:09:15pm

While one can point to racist principles like multiculturalism and racist practices such as Affirmative Action as defining tenets of 'left' or 'left-wing' - what racist principles or racist practices are defining tenets of 'right' or 'right-wing'?

Trying to make 'white racism' synonymous with the tenets that define 'right' and 'right wing' ise nothing more than Janine Garofalo idiocy.

396 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:09:22pm

re: #382 Occasional Reader

How do you say "don't blame me, I voted for Kodos" in Farsi?

رای بدهم Kodos من راسرزنش نکنید،من برای

(according to an online translator)

397 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:09:39pm

re: #386 Occasional Reader

Hear, hear! We must take a firm stand against imperialism, including that of Emperor Penguins.

Yes, and their leaders, Crosby and Malkin.

398 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:09:44pm

re: #346 Kenneth

The USSR was Communist, but they did use the word "Socialist". My comment was about the difference between Marxists (USSR, China, Cuba, etc) and western Socialist parties (UK Labour Party, Canadian NDP, French Socialists, ect.)

I watched "Reds" last night. Last saw it when I was about eleven. It makes much more sense now.

399 avanti  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:10:04pm

If the hope and change guy wins in Iran, the MSM will give him credit even though the guy is far from a moderate by western standards. The kids liked his promises to get rid of the morally police, and women liked him because he actually campaigned with his wife.
IF he wins, Obama has a shot at some rear progress. ( I love my Kool Aid)

400 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:10:11pm

re: #393 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That was indeed an Opus you wrote there!

One fit for an emperor.

401 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:10:35pm

re: #388 FurryOldGuyJeans

The only way the Democrats control "costs" in health care is to ration. And senior citizens will get rationed first and most. Just wait until Obama's health care board decrees that the doctors must pull the plug on granny, or deny her a hip replacement because her life expectancy is too short.

402 jorline  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:10:39pm

re: #354 quickjustice

Too bad the Iranian elections are a sham. The opposition to the mullahs was banned years ago. I think Ahmadinejad has become so well known, and so hated, internationally, that the mullahs calculate they can buy a couple of more years by replacing him with a new face with the same basic theocratic policies.

Remember, the Islamic Republic of Iran is the first true theocracy in Islam.

I agree, but the mullahs are facing a youth movement that is the majority.
It will be interesting to see what the next generation will do... compromise or will they fight for a new direction.

403 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:01pm

re: #392 SanFranciscoZionist

Polar bear? Hell, I support the use of the red and white winged wheel today.

404 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:07pm

re: #350 Kosh's Shadow

The USSR fits the textbook definition of Communist. It was "socialist" in name only, but that is meaningless. We aren't calling North Korea a democracy or a republic just because its name is the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"

John Stewart has quite a funny riff on how you can tell how bad things are in a country based on the number of lies in the official name of the country. He uses the Congo as an example, but NorKo works well too.

405 avanti  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:13pm

re: #364 pre-Boomer Marine brat

From what little I'm finding out yonder, I think it's too early.
Reuters ran with Mousavi's announcement.

If he does not, we might have some kids in the streets, we'll see.

406 brookly red  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:18pm

re: #396 MrSilverDragon

رای بدهم Kodos من راسرزن&# x0634; نکنید،&# x0645;ن برای

(according to an online translator)

/or you could just trun around and place your hands on the wall...

407 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:34pm

re: #371 Kenneth

so does Short-shit:

Ahmadinejad claims victory after Iran's polling stations are kept open

Al Reuters floated a "Mousavi wins with 65% of the vote" rumor about a half hour ago.

It's been memory-holed since then.

408 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:38pm

re: #390 jcm

What I said this morning....The Mad Mullahs have already decided who will win.

My take:
Mousavi wins, that has a multitude of benefits for the Mad Mullahs. The are major benefits are:
1) The west, Obama in particular and the twits in Foggy Bottom see it as a new direction for Iran and soften their stances toward Iran. We'll see a few years of talk, talk, while the centrifuges spin.
2) It mollifies the youth for a little while, they'll expect changes coming and Mousavi will delivery some cosmetic reforms, but again it keeps the youths from throwing the Mullahs a neck tie party.

Elections in Iran are for shaping international perceptions of Iran, and keeping the Mad Mullahs in power.

I think you're dead-bang on target.
My only joy in Mahmoud losing would be the whack to his ego.

/The Iranian President serves at the pleasure of the Expediency Council

409 Lincolntf  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:40pm

re: #395 RadCap

Everyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist. Everybody who wants to prevent a new Holocaust is a racist, everyone who wants to let people keep most of what they earn is a racist.
Did you skip public education entirely?

410 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:43pm
411 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:11:47pm

re: #399 avanti

If the hope and change guy wins in Iran, the MSM will give him credit even though the guy is far from a moderate by western standards. The kids liked his promises to get rid of the morally police, and women liked him because he actually campaigned with his wife.
IF he wins, Obama has a shot at some rear progress. ( I love my Kool Aid)

/guess again

412 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:12:21pm

re: #401 quickjustice

The only way the Democrats control "costs" in health care is to ration. And senior citizens will get rationed first and most. Just wait until Obama's health care board decrees that the doctors must pull the plug on granny, or deny her a hip replacement because her life expectancy is too short.

The first paragraph says it all:

June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Health-care overhaul legislation being drafted by House Democrats will include $600 billion in tax increases and $400 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid (emphasis added), Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel said.

413 subsailor68  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:12:23pm

re: #388 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hi Furry! This is insanity. Just the first paragraph:

Health-care overhaul legislation being drafted by House Democrats will include $600 billion in tax increases and $400 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel said.

Okay, here's the deal. First we raise taxes by $600 billion to pay for our great health plan.

Got that part? Okay, here's the second, really cool part. At the same time, we cut funding for the existing two programs that we point to as successful beginnings to universal health care.

Is that genius or what?!

No, Mr. Rangel, that's nuts.

414 VioletTiger  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:12:36pm

re: #364 pre-Boomer Marine brat

From what little I'm finding out yonder, I think it's too early.
Reuters ran with Mousavi's announcement.


Since the winner needs a simple majority, they will probably need a run-0ff.

415 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:12:55pm

re: #400 Mad Al-Jaffee

One fit for an emperor.

But the Bloom is already fading.
*sniff*

416 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:13:16pm

re: #385 quickjustice

On the issue of racial purity: no black Americans are racially "pure". That's the unspoken legacy of slavery no one will discuss. It's also why Sharpton is a distant cousin of Cheney's.

No one is 'racially pure'. But I get your drift.

417 MJ  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:13:38pm

re: #384 J.S.

The Iranians will be playing Obama like a fiddle...

What do you by "will be"?
They already are playing him though he certainly isn't objecting.

418 JustABill  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:14:06pm

re: #246 Charles

Those views are not socialist, they're authoritarian. You have to look not just at their tactics, but at the outcome they hope to achieve. In the case of Coughlin and Von Brunn, taking control of the economy is a tactic with the purpose of making sure the race remains pure. That's the real bottom line for many fascist groups -- the fear of miscegenation.

Your correct, but the socialists/communists are authoritarian as well, they take control of the economy under the pretext of making things fair. Both seek to take over the economy. The "Classic Liberal" aka American Conservative position should be simply to LEAVE THE ECONOMY BE...

419 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:14:19pm

re: #402 jorline

Based upon the demographics (half of Iran's population is under 25), I agree. At the same time, indigenous rebellions seldom succeed without outside assistance. I fear that Obama and Hillary will cut a deal with the mullahs out of expediency, and betray the forces of freedom and democracy in Iran.

Such a deal also flies in the face of U.S. foreign policy since 1979, when the Iranian radicals seized and tortured our diplomats.

420 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:14:28pm

re: #392 SanFranciscoZionist

Viva los pinguinos! Viva la revolucion!

(Who SAYS I wasted four years in a liberal arts college?)

I propose you and I co-author a post-colonialist, deconstructionist exposé of the terrible oppression penguins face due to capitalism and institutionalized, anti-penguin racism. Given their demonstrated practice of regurgitating food for their young, I say we title it The Retching of the Earth.

421 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:14:29pm
422 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:14:30pm

re: #401 quickjustice

The only way the Democrats control "costs" in health care is to ration. And senior citizens will get rationed first and most. Just wait until Obama's health care board decrees that the doctors must pull the plug on granny, or deny her a hip replacement because her life expectancy is too short.

They'll start by allowing the hip replacement, and scheduling it 5 years later, instead of denying it. Then, if she survives 5 years, they'll find some reason to put it off another 5.

423 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:14:31pm

re: #384 J.S.

The Iranians will be are playing Obama like a fiddle...

424 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:14:37pm

re: #349 Occasional Reader

... The fact that the murder weapon was (from what I'm reading) a 70 year old Winchester .22 rifle, not a scary "assault weapon" or a handgun, might make it a bit harder for them to make their case, though.

Which even the lowest level of protection bullet proof vest would have stopped. And which the guard company wouldn't provide. Really, really sad.

425 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:14:50pm

re: #306 Occasional Reader

It's for folks who think that rodizio is insufficient for meat intake.

426 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:15:49pm
427 Ben Hur  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:15:50pm

Much will be played about the Mrs. Mousavi/Mrs. Obama issue.

That's the point.

There are no coinkidinks.

Michelle will save Israel on the way to her senate seat.

428 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:15:54pm

re: #353 avanti

Mousavi claims he is the winner in Iran, official results in a few hours.

Meet the new boss - same as the old boss.

429 jcm  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:16:12pm

re: #393 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That was indeed an Opus you wrote there!

Sometimes, when things get really ugly, it's necessary to run nekid through the periwinkle.

430 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:16:52pm

re: #420 Occasional Reader

I propose you and I co-author a post-colonialist, deconstructionist exposé of the terrible oppression penguins face due to capitalism and institutionalized, anti-penguin racism. Given their demonstrated practice of regurgitating food for their young, I say we title it The Retching of the Earth.

I'm with you, comrade.

431 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:17:10pm

From the BBC's scrolling "Latest" bar
(selected/copied on the fly -- MY emphasis)

"Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi claims victory before polls close"

432 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:17:41pm

re: #380 MrSilverDragon

Either way, it seems to me the Iranian people lose.

if I thought dinnerjacket losing the election meant a real change for the better in iranian policy, I'd be very happy if he lost. but since the president of iran is not the head honcho, I actually think it's better if dinnerjacket WINS. because there is so much opposition to him within the country, and he has become so identified with iran's vile policies outside the country, I think it's better for him to win this sham election. maybe it will stir up the youth of iran so they rise up against the mullahs. and when (and if) Israel feels it has to act militarily against the iranian nuke program, they'll get more support with dinnerjacket as the face of iran instead of a new "reformer" who "deserves a chance" to change iran's policy.

433 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:17:44pm

Boy Hit by Meteorite
SPACE.com Staff
space.com – Fri Jun 12, 9:45 am ET

A 14-year old German boy was hit in the hand by a pea-sized meteorite that scared the bejeezus out of him and left a scar.

"When it hit me it knocked me flying and then was still going fast enough to bury itself into the road," Gerrit Blank said in a newspaper account. Astronomers have analyzed the object and conclude it was indeed a natural object from space, The Telegraph reports.

Most meteors vaporize in the atmosphere, creating "shooting stars," and never reach the ground. The few that do are typically made mostly of metals. Stony space rocks, even if they are big as a car, will usually break apart or explode as they crash through the atmosphere.

There are a handful of reports of homes and cars being struck by meteorites, and many cases of space rocks streaking to the surface and being found later.

But human strikes are rare. There are no known instances of humans being killed by space rocks.

434 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:18:33pm

re: #425 lawhawk

It's for folks who think that rodizio is insufficient for meat intake.

I really don't understand how the Brazilians manage to (generally) stay so svelte.

Maybe they burn off all those beef calories by... well, you know.

435 Joel  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:19:10pm

He is an extreme paleocon and would fit in well with Pat Buchanan who is a real scum bucket.

436 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:19:21pm

re: #388 FurryOldGuyJeans

The unasked question is why do we need to spend $1 trillion to get the last few million Americans covered by an insurance whether they need it or not.

Access to health care isn't an issue since anyone who is sick is able to get access to health care. People bitch about the cost, and Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupt entities themselves - so far in the hole that cutting funding from them only makes matters worse.

Access and cost are separate issues, but the Administration and Rangel (D-Tax Cheat) purposefully conflates them so as to effectuate a change that is not needed.

One need only look at Britain to see what government health care can do - longer waits for necessary health care, fewer doctors available, and no improvement to the quality of care.

437 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:19:39pm
438 J.S.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:19:46pm

re: #417 MJ

Yeah. (If the so-called "moderate" wins the Presidency of Iran, and Ahmadinejad is defeated, then this outcome -- as the Mullahs in power have no doubt figured out -- is much more advantageous for future manipulations of Obama...the Iranians gain lots of leverage...)

439 jorline  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:19:50pm

re: #419 quickjustice

Based upon the demographics (half of Iran's population is under 25), I agree. At the same time, indigenous rebellions seldom succeed without outside assistance. I fear that Obama and Hillary will cut a deal with the mullahs out of expediency, and betray the forces of freedom and democracy in Iran.

Such a deal also flies in the face of U.S. foreign policy since 1979, when the Iranian radicals seized and tortured our diplomats.

That would not surprise me in the least.

So much for Hope and Change.

440 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:20:15pm

re: #434 Occasional Reader

Samba. That's what you were thinking. Samba. /thinking semiclean thoughts.

441 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:21:07pm

I don't know that the terms Left and Right are at all meaningful. I'm fairly certain Von Brunn doesn't meet the basic requirements to be considered a conservative.

Communists, Socialists, Nazis, and Fascists all share the characteristic that they believe some government body can make better decisions than individuals can.

Since the primary desire of American conservatives is to have a small limited government that rarely interferes with individual liberty, it's easy to see why a lot of us lump those tyrannical philosophies in the same category.

442 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:21:47pm

re: #429 jcm

Sometimes, when things get really ugly, it's necessary to run nekid through the periwinkle.

Does that tickle your fancy?

/*hunkering down, waiting for the reply*

443 redstateredneck  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:24:21pm

re: #434 Occasional Reader

I really don't understand how the Brazilians manage to (generally) stay so svelte.

Maybe they burn off all those beef calories by... well, you know.

Dancing?

444 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:24:39pm

re: #433 FurryOldGuyJeans

That reminds me of the movie Creepshow. I think that was the first horror movie I ever saw in the theater.

445 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:25:30pm

re: #443 redstateredneck

Dancing?

Chasing street urchins and shooting them?

446 redstateredneck  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:25:54pm

re: #445 Mad Al-Jaffee

Chasing street urchins and shooting them?

That, too.

447 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:26:16pm

re: #421 Iron Fist

Of course I have Gulag Archepeligo! Not at work, of course. But remember, the peasantry did fight back.

For all the good it did them.

448 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:27:28pm
449 Dianna  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:27:51pm

re: #421 Iron Fist

Blue caps.

Or that fairy tale, so sickeningly familiar to all,
Where I glimpse the top of a sky-blue cap
And the house attendant, white with fear.

- Anna Akhmatova.

450 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:28:43pm

re: #437 Iron Fist

Man, I lived with a sex addict for a while.

"Was he good to you?"

-funniest line from the movie Traffic, which wasn't generally a humor movie, of course

451 freedomplow  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:29:49pm

re: #433 FurryOldGuyJeans

Boy Hit by Meteorite
SPACE.com Staff
space.com – Fri Jun 12, 9:45 am ET

Pretty sure I found a iron meteorite in the fall, weighs 8.1 oz. about the size of a golf ball.

Brought it to a geologist and he wasn't sure what it was, thought it might be some slag.

Have to find someone that can identify it.

452 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:30:06pm

re: #450 Occasional Reader

"Was he good to you?"

-funniest line from the movie Traffic, which wasn't generally a humor movie, of course

That movie should have been called "Drugs Are Bad, Mmkay?"

453 Drider  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:30:27pm

re: #383 Sharmuta

Ummm Sharmuta, I thought all true American's hated Marxists, almost if not more than Communists?
I did notice you at least didn't argue the left's...I.E...Marxists(presently) hatred and bigotry of all things Jewish.
Once again, hating Marxists is encouraged being the practice destroy's.....life,liberty and personal exceptionalism but then again, I didn't see this loon shooting Marxists, he was hunting Jewish people and black people.

454 jcm  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:31:53pm

re: #442 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Does that tickle your fancy?

/*hunkering down, waiting for the reply*

I can't find the [delete] Bloom County panel of that one!

455 kansas  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:36:31pm

Seems like extremists on the right and left are similar. I wonder if the proper diagram for this would be more of a circle than a straight line.

456 John Neverbend  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:36:38pm

re: #441 NukeAtomrod

I don't know that the terms Left and Right are at all meaningful.

I think they are meaningful, but in this case not hugely relevant. The most important fact is the obvious one. This hateful lunatic committed a wanton and murderous act of pure malice. Since anti-semitism is by no means the exclusive province of the right, that alone did not define him as right wing, although just looking at his expressions of regret that he fought on the wrong side during WWII seems to me to point clearly in that direction.

I really could have done without the unedifying display of some elements of the left and right apportioning blame to each other (I don't care who started it), but then I'm foolish to expect anything else from those don't think before opening their mouths.

457 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:37:49pm
458 kansas  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:37:58pm

re: #353 avanti

Mousavi claims he is the winner in Iran, official results in a few hours.

Was this before or after Dinner Jacket declared himself the winner?

459 kansas  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:41:44pm

re: #244 Ben Hur

Me?

I don't give a shit what he was, but I don't think a leftist would hit the Holocaust Museum.

The left LOVES the image of the weak Jew.

They HATE the image, and reality, of the non-victim strong Jew.

Wouldn't the museum have images of a lot of victims? Never been to DC myself.

460 Zimriel  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:41:51pm

re: #37 subsailor68

Here's Jonah Goldberg's take on Von Brunn:

Goldberg misses a few jump shots in the first half, but gets some three pointers in the last quarter. He points out the groupthink in the media, from far-right and moderate left, that "neocons" are screwing up our foreign policy. He calls out Lind, Sullivan, Matthews, Mearsheimer /Walt, the NYT editorialists and Rev. Wright; for ensuring that "neo-con" remains "code for traitor" among the news outlets of record.

I have to agree with him on that much. It's irresponsible of these journalists to keep repeating this line that Jews are not loyal to the United States. It doesn't just feed antiSemitism on the Left; it reinforces it on the Right too ("see! even the New York Times agrees with me!").

461 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:42:52pm
462 thequis  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:42:52pm

First off I agree with the first couple of posters who expressed Hate is Hate no matter what side of the Left or Right Spectrum they may belong to.

Lets take a look at Leftism and Rightism as it relates to Jewish people and Israel. Okay in order to create a little clarity I will have to make some statements that we all can understand are OVER GENERALIZATIONS. I do want to say this though, neither side is Anti-Semitic as a whole and the rhetoric on either side at some point has to calm itself down.

A simplistic analogy to the Left/Right Jewish situation is to look at the way it relates to the OLD southern North South feelings towards the American Negro (I'm American Negro, so I'm using the term, deal with it). Historically The North was very much in support of the American Negro as a whole wanting to grant freedom from slavery and rights of equality. Of course the Southern power structure, being the direct beneficiary of slavery, was against if for good economic reasons. But the attitudes of the people were very different on an individual basis than they were to the groups as a whole. In the south where many White individual were greatly socialized with Negros, and in many cases were RAISED by them, they were more sympathetic on a case by case basis. They may not give a damn about the plight of the American Negro, but Black Jim from down the block is alright. The converse being true with the north. In the North, they really wanted to help black people out as a block, but they absolutely didn't want them moving into the neighborhoods.

Politically speaking the Left has been very supportive of Jewish People and their freedom to practice their religion as they see fit. Where as they haven't been as staunchly supportive with regards to the United States protection of the Jewish State of Israel. The Right (NEO CONS, the Peleocons have a whole other view) tends to strongly and forcefully defend the Jewish State of Israel (in some cases because the old axiom, the enemy of my enemy is my friend). But in practice some on the right are a bit more intolerant of Jewish Individuals because of their "Differentness" (religions and customs, some of crazies on both sides still hold the whole Jesus debacle 2000 years ago against them).

If you look at the way election results shake you some of this bears out. President Bush is infinitely more popular in Israel than he is anywhere else on the globe (okay, Many African Nations with his assistance in fighting AIDS would probably rate pretty high up there as well). Bush could have very well run for and won on a landslide a Third Term if Israelis were voting. But Jewish Americans OVERWHELMINGLY vote democratic and support Obama.

Let me state one last time. TONS of OVER GENERALIZATIONS, but hopefully it is illustrative of the point.

463 Buck  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:48:58pm

Here is my theory, not that you asked.

The Ruling Mullah's are really businessmen, sort of in the same vain as mobsters. They own the car dealerships, and oil companies etc.

Crazy is bad for business. Dropping a bomb on Tel Aviv is bad for business.

The Ruling Mullahs want to get back to making money, and living large. The new guy can make that happen. No actual peace, but just stay below the horizon enough to fix the economy, and make more money.

464 yochanan  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:49:32pm

re: #6 Kosh's Shadow

he is a fascist anti semite rev wright is a redical leftist anti semite the shit stinks from both.

465 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:51:26pm

Brunn shares almost nothing of the worldview or desires of conservatives, if by conservative, you mean the likes of George Will, Jonah Goldberg, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, or Milton Friedman.

Two of these are/were ethnically jewish, at least two are Catholic, one is black. In otherwords, every last one of them is on the hate list of Brunn, sometimes for more than one reason.

Conservatives favor free trade. The BNP is against it, and you can be sure Brunn was against it too.

Conservatives favor equal rights for all. Brunn got off that train when it came to the right to life.

Conservatives favor a limited State. While opinions differ among conservatives as to the merits of gay marriage, it is a logical consequence of central conservative premises that the state should not put any barrier in the way of interracial marriage.

Unless you're going to redefine "conservative" to mean "neonazi", there just isn't anything besides being mammalian that conservatives and Brunn have in common.

This is not to say that he's a leftist. He's so far outside the orbit of political opinion in the U.S. that the only way to categorize him is as a psychopathic wannabe killer who just graduated to actual killer and thereby graduated from somebody who deserved shunning, to somebody who deservedly got shot and who should now face the death penalty.

466 ihateronpaul  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:52:05pm

re: #116 ihateronpaul

Because Jonah Goldberg has made a career out of that crap and brainwashed people. He is the Michael Savage of NRO, basically.

lol I got three downdings for pointing out a fact. He created a book called "Liberal Fascism" that is also a blog that tries to implant the notion that nazi's were left wing. They were not, communists were. Sheesh.

467 MPH  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:52:36pm

re: #351 A.W.

I am reminded of Malcolm X's comparison of northern racists (in his time) with southern racists. he said the southern racist was like a wolf. you knew he was a wolf. you knew he was dangerous. you watched your step. but the northern racist is like a fox. you don't realize he is a danger until you are half-swallowed.

Clarence Thomas said the same thing..

468 ihateronpaul  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:53:14pm

re: #465 lostlakehiker

Brunn shares almost nothing of the worldview or desires of conservatives, if by conservative, you mean the likes of George Will, Jonah Goldberg, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, or Milton Friedman.

Two of these are/were ethnically jewish, at least two are Catholic, one is black. In otherwords, every last one of them is on the hate list of Brunn, sometimes for more than one reason.

Conservatives favor free trade. The BNP is against it, and you can be sure Brunn was against it too.

Conservatives favor equal rights for all. Brunn got off that train when it came to the right to life.

Conservatives favor a limited State. While opinions differ among conservatives as to the merits of gay marriage, it is a logical consequence of central conservative premises that the state should not put any barrier in the way of interracial marriage.

Unless you're going to redefine "conservative" to mean "neonazi", there just isn't anything besides being mammalian that conservatives and Brunn have in common.

This is not to say that he's a leftist. He's so far outside the orbit of political opinion in the U.S. that the only way to categorize him is as a psychopathic wannabe killer who just graduated to actual killer and thereby graduated from somebody who deserved shunning, to somebody who deservedly got shot and who should now face the death penalty.

conservatives are not for equal rights because they don't support gay marriage. you can jump up and down saying that cheney supports it, but he also supports the republican party which is dead set against it.

469 yochanan  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:53:27pm

the area were it gets a little more difficult is when you have smart islamist anti semites who sound leftist in english i.e. anti zionism but in arabic they sound like there right wing anti semetic cousins who also blame the 'jew' instead of the zionist. the other day the good rev. forgot to use the 'zionist' code word.

470 doppelganglander  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:56:56pm

re: #466 ihateronpaul

You seem to be enjoying it so much, I just gave you another one on general principle.

471 Tatterdemalian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:57:19pm

Maybe we could look at it as a ring-like sort of deal, rotating around among Pacifism Libertarian Militarism Authoritarianism Pacifism.

Neo-Nazis inhabit the area between Authoritarian and Militarist, while the Leftists find themselves in the area between Authoritarian and Pacifist. They have a common ground, in that they think their fellow human beings need to be strictly controlled, but take very different approaches in forcing others to accept that control (legal manipulation vs. at gunpoint).

472 Hawaii69  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 12:58:09pm

I guess this means he's not a true Scotsman either....

473 yochanan  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:01:23pm

re: #462 thequis

liberals maybe but the commies destroyed the russian jewish comm. murdered the jewish leadership
that is the problem when you can't tell the diff. between liberalism and marxism.

474 Scion9  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:01:57pm

re: #441 NukeAtomrod

I don't know that the terms Left and Right are at all meaningful.

If you look at the original Left-Right divide that separated French liberals and supporters of the Revolution from French conservative and reactionary monarchists it works fine.

Keeping things within a purely French scope, a modern Frenchman that closely cleaves to the views of Jean-Paul Marat would be on the 'Right-Wing' because basically Marat is an old dead white guy (and especially one that predates a certain 19th Century German obscurantist thinker), while a modern Frenchman that is an ultra-reactionary Legitimist monarchist is also...on the 'Right-Wing'. This despite the two having philosophies that were once seen as diametrically opposed to each other.

You have a similar situation with many American 'Conservatives' that cling to the writings of Madison, Jefferson or maybe even Thomas Paine. All those guys were on the Left-Wing before the term was coined. Of course, not all American 'Conservatives' today are big fans of the Founding Fathers such as our home-grown neo-Calvinist Right-Wing yearning for a North American Christian Theocracy (I'm sure they especially hate Paine) that for some reason share the same half of the spectrum. So too does a theoretical full-blown radical Jacobite that wishes to overthrow the British Government, hang the Hanoverian usurpers and restore all those rebellious colonies to their rightful Stuart owners. All birds of a feather obviously.

475 A.W.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:03:39pm

re: #362 Occasional Reader

That's a very good question.

Best case: This might represent a beginning of a crack in the facade of the theocracy, even if the mullahs think they're pulling the strings. Kind of like Gorby thought he was completely in the pilot's seat circa 1988.

Well, here's hoping you are right but fearing you are wrong. Look, that idiot was useful. he made it plain what a bunch of idiots were running this country. he was an embarrassment to every lefty who claimied they could be reasoned with.

476 A.W.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:06:15pm

regarding the topic, i just wish someone could kill someone and we not turn it into a right/left thing. and in this case the justification is particularly thin.

477 Catttt  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:08:25pm

re: #468 ihateronpaul

To me, James Von Brunn is a murderer and a hater. His reasons for getting to that point seem to stem from his desire to make himself superior in his eyes to all others. His ideological pronouncements all stem from that and support that in his mind. Trying to judge him as a normal citizen is impossible - we are looking through a glass, darkly.

I basically get lost in broad generalizations. I am conservative in some ways and not others. For example, I am very fiscally conservative, which very few actual politicians are, dammit. I think that this issue is much more important than a lot of the other issues politicians waste time on.

I would vote for gay marriage - I can't in good conscience not support it, which is a major difference between me and a lot of other conservatives and a difficult issue for gay conservatives.

I am pro life, but I would not want to impose my choice on another woman - I'd want to help her see other choices than getting pregnant or having an abortion. Also, I am a registered Democrat, which proves nothing.

478 yochanan  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:08:33pm

re: #471 Tatterdemalian

stalinist and fascists both believed the end justified the means thus both commited mass murder who they murdered sometimes was the same people sometimes different people.

extreme nationalists vs extreme internationalists (although stalin went inito the communism in one country thing)

fascists/nazi's aren't socialists or commies and commies aren't nazi's but both were evil.

I really don't get the nazi's are socalist crap
I mean social democrats believe in political freedom even though they are totally wrong on econimics and the size of gov't etc. In the past social democrat run trade unions offen were very anti communist.

479 Aye Pod  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:31:58pm

It's a funny sort of left wing extremist that writes foam drenched diatribes against the evils of Marxism.

Whatever he is, he isn't that.

480 A.W.  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:44:11pm

hey, btw, is the guy still among the living? what is the prognosis?

and when can he stand trial so we can kill him ourselves?

Oh, shit, this is DC. do they even have a death penalty?

maybe there is a way for the general federal criminal code to apply. i mean its a national museam, maybe that will work.

481 Hengineer  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 1:53:26pm

re: #480 A.W.

hey, btw, is the guy still among the living? what is the prognosis?

and when can he stand trial so we can kill him ourselves?

Oh, shit, this is DC. do they even have a death penalty?

maybe there is a way for the general federal criminal code to apply. i mean its a national museam, maybe that will work.

The Death Penalty in D.C. is walking the suburbs at 2:00 AM by yourself.
And yet D.C. votes predominately Democrat.

482 Tatterdemalian  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 2:05:24pm

re: #478 yochanan

"I really don't get the nazi's are socalist crap"

It's the name, of course. Much like all the communist dictatorships naming themselves "The People's Democratic Republic Of Freedom Representing The Common Laborer In The Only True Democracy" etc. etc. etc, the Nazis were "National Socialists." Their true colors only came out after their power base was secure, which is one of the most important lessons everyone should learn... never trust an organization that claims to represent everything. Best case, it ends up representing nothing; worst case, you find out that the con artists running it were conning you, too.

It doesn't help that both fascists and socialists were just flip sides of the same busted socioeconomic theory, that all products have a fixed "value" that can be determined scientifically, like mass or weight, and that people shouldn't be allowed to cheat by charging others more than this value. They implemented this theory different ways, the fascists by attempting to control the social aspects and the communists by trying to control the economic aspects, but both were as pointless in the end as trying to calculate the epicycles of Venus, to explain how it moves through the sky the way it does without making a full orbit around anything other than the Earth.

483 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 2:07:40pm

re: #143 Gus 802

A noted in the Pulitzer-prize winning history of the civil rights movement, "Coming For To Carry Me Home", George Wallace started his political career as a liberal Democrat who supported civil rights for black people, but changed to a racist when it became necessary to advance that career.

484 Mad Mullah  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 2:21:17pm

People hold so many different political views and I think that it's vastly over simplifying things by breaking everything down into either left or right.

The Holocaust museum shooter held so many views that are typical of many on the left. He despised Jews, he hated Neocons, he hated Foxnews and he was an idiot troofer. I'm not claiming that it is correct to say that he was a leftist, but I also don't think that it's correct to claim that he was exclusively on the right. I think that it's correct to claim that he was a lunatic nutjob.

485 Ontheleftcoast  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 4:37:33pm

What's going on here is the ongoing legacy of one of the greatest triumphs of Stalinist propaganda: the equation of the NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte, aka Nazis) with the political right. This is a habit of thought that the Left continues to employ today, with its promiscuous use of the epithet "fascist" and the often deliberate confusion of conservatism and fascism.
Anyway, as Götz Aly showed in Hitler's Beneficiaries..., the fascist Nazis were socialists (as in large part is the economic agenda, such as it is of the BNP.)
The class enemy of the NDSAP was the Jews; it was a mixed racial/genetic and economic demonization not unlike the Bolshevik attack on the "kulaks." Much like the jihadis, their ideology also provided social approval for thugs, racists and antisemites. Rather than ostracizing and imprisoning violent psychopaths, it validated and valorized them; no wonder whack jobs like Von Brunn have an affinity to the Nazi mystique.
He has a long history of disseminating Nazi thought; I don't think that started from his being a Leftist, though, or intellectually convinced of the virtues of socialism.

486 coquimbojoe  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 4:54:38pm

re: #466 ihateronpaul

lol I got three downdings for pointing out a fact. He created a book called "Liberal Fascism" that is also a blog that tries to implant the notion that nazi's were left wing. They were not, communists were. Sheesh.

You are ignorant. Adolf Hitler was a product of the left. So was Mussolini, and, so was Father Coughlin.

487 Dustoff-507  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 5:03:36pm

O-come on, the fool was a full BLOW-NUT.

He hated everyone. Simple as that.

488 Zimriel  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 5:26:28pm

re: #485 Ontheleftcoast

What's going on here is the ongoing legacy of one of the greatest triumphs of Stalinist propaganda: the equation of the NSDAP [snip] with the political right.

Heard that argument already from Jeff Goldstein. Mind terribly listening to my counter argument?

What is actually going on here is extremism from the Cultural Right. I have read elsewhere that Obama was raised in the Cultural Left - more specifically, in the "New Left", the Maoist / Alinskyist Left as against the old Wilsonian "progressive consensus". That no matter how centrist or even conservative Obama sounds in public, the New Left is how he interprets it all deep down. (I agree with this, personally.)

But if we agree to that, then we must also agree there is something called a Cultural Right. Sure, the BNP will make comments against free trade and for welfare (for whites); but culturally, their appeal to the heart is Rightist. That is why they talk, on the deepest genetic level, about the "indigenous" inhabitants of those Isles. This is Right talk, the way that talk about transnational class is Left talk.

So when Goldberg talks about Liberal Fascism, and even more so when Goldstein talks about the Left's control of the narrative - they are trying to change the subject. They are obfuscating. They are saying but but but LOOK OVER THERE! No, sorry; they, and you, don't get off so easily. The Right has extremists; it has fascists and, yes, it has socialists.

If you don't think there is such a thing as Right extremism, even on a "safe" blog, I invite you to over to michellemalkin.com...]>Malkin's -

112. My fondest dream is of the day when Obama and his ilk are all taken down and put on trial. I want them all exposed for every lie, threat, theft, abuse of power and destruction of our Constitution. I want them all to anwswer for their treason and then led away in cuffs to spend their lives in prison. I want to wipe that childish, Jr. High smirk off odumbo’s face and replace it with the look of panic he will feel when it all comes crumbing down around him. I too can dream!

Probably one of the same guys who got upset when the Congress was mulling putting George W Bush on trial... because it was "banana republic" ish. I am here to tell you that these extremists have no problem with a banana republic as long as they get to be the caudillo.

So go ahead and keep whining about how unuseful the Left / Right divide is. Go bang your big red book of "Liberal Fascism". It doesn't change the basic fact. Von Brunn belongs to that part of the cultural Right which is extremist. The Right as a whole doesn't own him, and anti-Semites in the MSM share responsibility; but the bloggers who give guys like him a venue are the ones closest to him. They're the ones who need to do the soul-searching.

489 doubter4444  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 5:57:56pm

re: #488 Zimriel

Probably one of the same guys who got upset when the Congress was mulling putting George W Bush on trial... because it was "banana republic" ish. I am here to tell you that these extremists have no problem with a banana republic as long as they get to be the caudillo.

So go ahead and keep whining about how unuseful the Left / Right divide is. Go bang your big red book of "Liberal Fascism". It doesn't change the basic fact. Von Brunn belongs to that part of the cultural Right which is extremist. The Right as a whole doesn't own him, and anti-Semites in the MSM share responsibility; but the bloggers who give guys like him a venue are the ones closest to him. They're the ones who need to do the soul-searching.

Great point.
Thanks for putting it so clearly.

490 Korla Pundit  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:05:37pm

Antisemitism and white supremacy have nothing to do with being "right-wing." Who is the only active member of the Senate who was a high-ranking Klan member? Would you call him a right-winger?

Von Brunn is also a troofer, who believes Bush blew up the Twin Towers. He was against the Iraq war, because obviously were fighting it for the Zionists. These are all positions of the radical left.

Funny they didn't label him "anti-war troofer racist antisemite lone nut" instead of "right-wing extremist." It's disingenuous at best.

After all, who stood up on the same stage as Cindy Sheehan and Code Pink? That's right: neo-nazis. Not right wing. Just evil. Why do we have to compartmentalize in a binary fashion?

In any case, this kind of nutjob does not justify DOJ's painting of conservatives who don't like high taxes and illegal immigration with the same brush you would use to describe psychotic nazis with known criminal pasts. I don't see any vindication of that report at all. If anything, it shows how off the mark they really were. If they really did their profiling properly, they might have found this guy through his record and his website, and could have stopped him from murdering an innocent citizen.

491 DANEgerus  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:07:30pm

LGF has posted on the vicious anti-Semitism on the Left as demonstrated on the Daily Kos. Such conspiracy theories are the exception on the 'Right' and the rule on the Left these days.

At issue was the DHS and whether it was a politicized document and whether Von Brunn and the Tiller murder vindicated it's authors. Well... no.

Rand Simberg : A ‘Right-Wing,’ ‘Christian’ Hate Crime

He believes that “socialism represents the future of the west,” and that the Bush administration was behind 9/11 — putting him firmly in the camp of the left, not the right.

Jesse Walker : The Brown Scare of '09

So the Department of Homeland Security, a bloated and dysfunctional agency that shouldn't exist in the first place, should spend its time tracking the possibility that a criminal kook with no co-conspirators will decide to shoot a doctor or a security guard? From preventing another 9/11 to preventing unorganized shootings: Talk about mission creep. Yes, these murders are terrorism, but they're the sort of terrorism that can be contained by the average small-town police force.

Why did the DHS report come under such fire? It wasn't because far-right cranks are incapable of committing crimes. It's because the paper blew the threat of right-wing terror out of proportion, just as the Clinton administration did in the '90s; because it treated "extremism" itself as a potential threat, while offering a definition of extremist so broad it seemed it include anyone who opposed abortion or immigration or excessive federal power; and because it fretted about the danger of "the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities." (Note that neither the killing in Kansas last month nor the shooting in Washington yesterday was committed by an Iraq or Afghanistan vet.) The effect isn't to make right-wing terror attacks less likely. It's to make it easier to smear nonviolent, noncriminal figures on the right, just as the most substantial effect of a red scare was to make it easier to smear nonviolent, noncriminal figures on the left. The fact that communist spies really existed didn't justify Joseph McCarthy's antics, and the fact that armed extremists really exist doesn't justify the Department of Homeland Security's report.

Finally... There have been well over 100 "Sudden Jihadists" appear in the last 7 years so clearly the there is a contrast worth examining. These two horrific terror attacks by NON-VETERANS are in no way a 'movement' or an extension of a 'climate of hate' being propagated by the "Right Wing". If anything they demonstrate how rare are such events and how wrong the DHS report was in it's baseless claims.

But when 100+"Sudden Jihadists" appear to wage war on civilians, and Jews, and enjoy the cooperation of a MainStreamMedia determined to obfuscate it begs the question 'just who is nurturing them' in a 'climate of hate'. The answers have been pointed out in this very blog as Mosques and front groups like CAIR are repeatedly exposed as being directly linked to such movement determined upon violence. And everytime I see a punk in a Kaffiyeh it confirms for me the determination of the Left to deny reality and implicitly condone that violence even in it's most easily defined forms of naked anti-Semitism.

Von Brunn was a National Socialist and his comments would have gone unnoticed on the Daily Kos.

492 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:23:52pm

re: #468 ihateronpaul

conservatives are not for equal rights because they don't support gay marriage. you can jump up and down saying that cheney supports it, but he also supports the republican party which is dead set against it.

Conservatives are SPLIT on gay marriage. So, for that matter, are liberals. California, which is overwhelmingly liberal, had a referendum and voted down gay marriage. This could not have happened if liberals came down solidly in favor of it.

Add to this the fact that opposition to gay marriage is not a matter of being unwilling to extend basic human rights to gays. It's a matter of not viewing marriage as such a right, across the board. How many gays think polygamy ought to be legal? Right. Marriage is complicated. To some extent the legal side of the marriage contract is a quid-pro-quo thing, and the state buys the stability of the marriage by forking over benefits, in exchange for the service, that would otherwise be expensive, that the parents provide by raising new citizens.

493 RalphShort  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:30:35pm

If extremists on the right were not leftists then why does the commie thug Chavez, wish the fascist thug ahmadinejad, good luck in the election. The fact is the extreme left is as ugly and violent as anyone on the extreme right, they just get a better press here in the U.S.

494 Basho  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:34:04pm

re: #493 RalphShort

If extremists on the right were not leftists then why does the commie thug Chavez, wish the fascist thug ahmadinejad, good luck in the election. The fact is the extreme left is as ugly and violent as anyone on the extreme right, they just get a better press here in the U.S.

The extreme left embraces radical Islam for their similar hatred of democracy.

495 Basho  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:38:15pm

re: #492 lostlakehiker

The state should have gotten out of the marriage business the day after paternity testing was invented...

496 Basho  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:41:09pm

re: #490 Korla Pundit

Von Brunn is also a troofer, who believes Bush blew up the Twin Towers. He was against the Iraq war, because obviously were fighting it for the Zionists. These are all positions of the radical left.

You obviously aren't very familiar with the extreme right. Sure, oftentimes they come full circle to the extreme left, that doesn't make them the same entity though...

497 Zimriel  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:45:21pm

re: #496 Basho

You obviously aren't very familiar with the extreme right. Sure, oftentimes they come full circle to the extreme left, that doesn't make them the same entity though...

Yeah, I was going to downding that tiresome comment; but I'd be downdinging so many posts on this thread, what's the point.

I don't think the whole fabled Moon could contain the amount of cheese we'd need for this whine.

498 Korla Pundit  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 6:46:29pm
You obviously aren't very familiar with the extreme right. Sure, oftentimes they come full circle to the extreme left, that doesn't make them the same entity though...


No, the point is if you are going to paint this kook as "right-wing" because it makes the right look bad, based only on this kook's antisemitism and racist nutjobbery, then you might just as well call him a left-wing extremist. It's irrelevant as a concept, but the media will use any atrocity as an example of the bad, evil effects of conservative blogs and talk radio. Similar to how Clinton blamed Rush for Tim McVeigh.

I could just as eaily blame all the hugely successful and influential left-wing talk radio hosts for the Islamist shooting of that army recruiter, but there aren't any.

499 RalphShort  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 7:01:42pm

Basho, to some extent I agree with you on the "hatred" concept. But to my logic, if they do the same things, i.e. eliminate freedom, murder innocents, reduce law to a political outcome then they are the same entity. The difference between them is only related to why things are "wrong" but they are the same in how toright the "wrongs".

At the end of the day it is concentration of power either by an individual or by a party. Neither of which can possibly deal with the infinite number of ideas, culture, or habits of those who would like to pursue their own life's ambitions. The end result is repression.

500 Basho  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 7:01:42pm

re: #498 Korla Pundit

I understand how it doesn't seem fair that an ideology you associate with is constantly tarnished by people you appall. There are a lot of reasonable socialists who no doubt find it unfair that others instantly compare their motives to Lenin. But that's life.

501 Basho  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 7:07:56pm

re: #499 RalphShort

Basho, to some extent I agree with you on the "hatred" concept. But to my logic, if they do the same things, i.e. eliminate freedom, murder innocents, reduce law to a political outcome then they are the same entity. The difference between them is only related to why things are "wrong" but they are the same in how toright the "wrongs".

Well, in the specific example we were referring to... extreme leftists and radical Islamists... they certainly want to do many of the same things, and may assist each other in reaching certain goals. But no leftist is going to convert to Islam and no Islamist is going to live under a communist government. Treating them the same is foolish, imho.

502 Korla Pundit  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 7:52:34pm
I understand how it doesn't seem fair that an ideology you associate with is constantly tarnished by people you appall. There are a lot of reasonable socialists who no doubt find it unfair that others instantly compare their motives to Lenin. But that's life.

That's a silly comparison. Your standard, run-of-the-mill conservative has very little to do with a murderous nazi. A socialist, however, is very much related to Lenin.

A better comparison would be callling the Unibomber a leftist radical. It's just a cheap piece of slander.

503 Ontheleftcoast  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 8:02:31pm

re: #488 Zimriel

No, van Brunn is insane and/or evil. It's pretty irrelevant whether he professed hatred of or love of socialism. His thinking is defective; it's just that he found an ideology that resonated with his pathology. We all do that to some extent.

I'm not whining about the left/right distinction being unuseful. I think that limited government, free speech, free enterprise and the right to self-defense are anathema to all statists whether of left or right. Look at what the so-called "Human Rights" commissions have been up to in Canada if you want to see where the nanny state can lead.

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's not useful is to apply a European Left/Right dichotomy to the USA. However flawed the application has been in this country, because of the founding ideas, particularly as expounded by Lincoln there has been a Liberty based patriotism and nationalism that is unlike any European nationalism which does indeed tend to be racial/ethnic in its roots and much more attuned to what you are calling the "cultural right."
Personally, I consider WFB to have been on the cultural right, and find his evolution from opposition to the Civil Rights Act to repenting his opposition and writing his seminal essay on antisemitism (and parting company with old friends like Joe Sobran over it) to be pivotal events in our cultural history. BTW, he supported legalizing cannabis.
It also needs to be said that the American Right purged its Objectivist and Bircher wingnuts and has been hostile to antisemitism, unlike the Left in this country which has made common cause with its wingnuts and antisemites, to the point where they are a major funding base and hence constituency in this administration.
What also needs to be said is that having done it once, the Right can't rest on its laurels. Eternal vigilance is required.

504 Basho  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 8:08:36pm

re: #502 Korla Pundit

That's a silly comparison. Your standard, run-of-the-mill conservative has very little to do with a murderous nazi. A socialist, however, is very much related to Lenin.

Well, I'm just going to restate my observation that you're not familiar with the extreme right in the US. It's a cesspool of conspiracy theories and hate, so it's best if I don't go into detail.

505 hopperandadropper  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 8:14:51pm

When you're talking about someone that far out on the fringes, is it even meaningful to try and classify it? What's the point?

506 Basho  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 8:22:37pm

re: #505 hopperandadropper

When you're talking about someone that far out on the fringes, is it even meaningful to try and classify it? What's the point?

Well, the target wasn't random. It's practical from a counter-terror/law enforcement perspective.

507 RadCap  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:04:38pm

re: #502 Korla Pundit

A better comparison would be callling the Unibomber a leftist radical. It's just a cheap piece of slander.


Environmentalism isn't a leftist philosophy? The Unibomber didn't practice a radical/extreme version of this philosophy? i would have to disagree if these are indeed the claims being made here.

508 mrclark  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:33:37pm

Poor Von Brunn....

He's a political 'hot potato'....

Leftists: "He's a right wing nut job fo sho!"
Rightees: "F-U Lefty....he's anti Joo....gotta be a left nut!"

Guys, guys... why the urge to attribute him to the right or left? Does it somehow score some 'points' if you can conclusively prove his ideology.

I say his ideology is fucking whacadoo..... He's a nut. Fairly clear cut case of nutter extremism, with more than a twinge of paranoia. Leave it at that..

509 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:45:23pm

re: #468 ihateronpaul

conservatives are not for equal rights because they don't support gay marriage. you can jump up and down saying that cheney supports it, but he also supports the republican party which is dead set against it.

Do you know what a conservative is? Because the religious right has stolen it, but I assure you, if you read Goldwater, you wouldn't say "conservatives" are not for equal rights.

510 totalkaosdave  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 7:19:02am

From Dissecting Leftism: "Here is what we know about him:

Von Brunn was known to the FBI as “as an anti-Semite and a white supremacist who had established websites that inspired hatred against African-Americans, Jews and others,” Persichini added.... Von Brunn has written books on Adolf Hitler as well as on his conspiracy theories and views on white superiority. In a recent posting on his blog he railed that “America is a Third-World racial garbage-dump - stupid, ignorant, dead-broke, and terminal”.

Just what part of that associates von Brunn with American conservatives? Nothing. So with whom DOES it associate him? Easy: Marx & Engels despised Jews and blacks too. Hitler was a socialist. The Soviets too persecuted Jews. The KKK were almost all Democrats. The most antisemitic statements coming out of US politics in the last few years have been from Democrats such as James Moran and Wesley Clark. Who is today the most prominent American polemicist against Israel? Jimmah Carter.

Who are they today who love America? Conservatives. Who are they who think America is rotten and in need of top to bottom reform? Democrats.

The whole tendency to think and talk in terms of race (such as "Jews") is typical Leftist collectivism. Conservatives think in terms of individuals and individual liberty. Von Brunn had much in common with the Left and little or nothing in common with conservatives."

511 Sharmuta  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 7:22:18am

re: #510 totalkaosdave

Did you read his manifesto? I doubt it since he clearly rails against liberals and communists.

Who are they who think America is rotten and in need of top to bottom reform?

Yeah- because the fringe right doesn't think that at all. They only think we need to "go back to the original intent" of the Constitution. You are either delusional or not being intellectually honest.

512 Former Belgian  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 9:30:13am

re: #346 Kenneth

The USSR was Communist, but they did use the word "Socialist". My comment was about the difference between Marxists (USSR, China, Cuba, etc) and western Socialist parties (UK Labour Party, Canadian NDP, French Socialists, ect.)

My own rule of thumb is:

* Communism: complete state ownership of the means of production, combined with overt or de facto dictatorship. Examples: USSR and most of its satellite states. Invariably Marxist in inspiration.
* Socialism (Euro style): means of production are significantly but not exclusively owned by the state. Pervasive trade-unionism (often with a single dominant trade union). Parliamentary democracy. Nanny state. Examples: Israel before 1977, France (to some extent), Sweden. State often has a monopoly in health insurance and education. Inspiration is a mixture of Marxism and the pragmatic social-democratic thinkers (Lassalle, Bernstein, Bebel).
* Social democracy: some state participation in the economy, but privately owned enterprises prevalent. Adversarial roles of trade unions and employers' organizations. Parliamentary democracy. Nanny state. Some competition generally exists in healthcare (multiple competing HMOs), education (e.g. state and subsidized religious schools),... Historically strongly trade-unionist, and focused more on concrete "workers' rights" and nanny state issues than on ideology. Example major parties in Europe: Belgium's old SP, Germany's SPD, Holland's PvdA, ...
* Christian democracy: similar to social democracy, but inspired more by Catholic ("Rerum Novarum") or mainline Protestant teachings on caring for the weak in society than by social-democratic thinkers. Generally socially fairly conservative even by US standards. Example major parties in Europe: Belgium's CD&V, Angela Merkel's CDU, ...
Most Western European countries have socio-economic systems that are rooted in either social democracy or Christian democracy, and either one leading party is SD and CD or the two top parties are rival SD and CD parties. (The rift between them is social-religious.)
* Corporatism: an economic system that rejects both socialism and capitalism in favor of an organization of society by estates and guilds (the original meaning of "corporation"), the relations between them governed by the state. The favored economic system of classical fascism a la Mussolini, as well as related regimes such as those of Franco, Salazar, Pétain,...
* Liberalism: in a Euro context means "classical liberalism", i.e., pro-market ("liberal" is a perennial Euro-US "false friend") and generally pro-small government (by Euro standards)
* Neoliberalism: in a Euro context means, basically, soft to moderate libertarianism

513 Former Belgian  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 9:41:35am

PS to my earlier comment:

Nazism was initially divided between a "left" wing under the Strasser brothers that took the "Socialism" in "National Socialist" pretty seriously, and Hitler (y"sh) himself whose economic policies tended more to quasi-Keynesian dirigism and lavish social benefits financed by unabashed economic plunder of Jews first and conquered nations later.

Charles Coughlin always sounded like a corporatist (in the Euro sense, not to be confused with big business advocates!) to me.

514 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 10:02:30am

Communism, fascism, and theocracy are all collectivist totalitarianisms, but differ in the manner in which they justify themselves and their dictatorial hold on power over individuals. Communism justifies it in the name of the erasure of class distinctions, fascism justifies it in the name of racial purity and supremacy, and theocracy justifies it in the name of some religious dogma or other.

Since the hatred of Jews and blacks figured so prominently in Von Brunn's thinking, I would have to consider him to be primarily a fascist.

And please do not make the same mistake that many liberals made when they confused John Stuart Millian classical liberalism with the communist left; do not confuse Edmund Burkean classical conservatism with the fascist right, and make the mistake of thinking that you are politically required to defend right wingers because you are conservative, the way that many liberals mistakenly believe that they are politically required to defend leftists.

515 RedHouseBlueState  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 10:21:18am

Yes, Von Brunn is a leftist. The leftists in America have changed the definitions in order to make them seem nicer, and their enemies meaner.

The left is defined as supremacy of the state over the individual. Therefore the true definition of the right should be the supremacy of the individual over the state.

Instead the left defines itself as everything they like, that's good, and nice, there fore they are able to define the right as everything they oppose and hate. Makes for great MSM reporting.

Any group, organization or individual that seeks to use the powers of the state over the individual are left, and that includes socialists, communists, progressives, liberals, the KKK, the Black Panthers, etc. They are all intent on capturing government power, so they can use it to force individuals to live as they see fit. And when they can't do it, they tend to go off the deep end, and this douche bag did in Washington.

I am of the opinion, one of the left's biggest weapons in the war on individual liberty and freedom is the left's domination of the English language. They change definitions constantly in order to frame their debate in their terms. This is a perfect example. Why is he "right wing?" Because the left says so.

If anyone can point out anything that makes Hitler right wing, I'd be interested in hearing it. Fascism started out left wing, and when it became obvious what a horror it was, the left quietly disassociated themselves from it, and then conveniently moved it over to their definition of the right.

I think its high time We The People took the language back from them, and started framing debates with real definitions.

516 Former Belgian  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:09:41am

re: #515 RedHouseBlueState

Yes, Von Brunn is a leftist. The leftists in America have changed the definitions in order to make them seem nicer, and their enemies meaner.

The left is defined as supremacy of the state over the individual. Therefore the true definition of the right should be the supremacy of the individual over the state.

The terms "left" and "right" originally came not from the US, but from the French National Assembly where supporters of the monarchy and the established order sat on the right and opponents on the left. I personally consider the one-dimensional left-right dichotomy to have outlived its usefulness long ago.

The way you (and people like Jonah Goldberg) (re)define the "left-right" axis makes it basically identical with the "authoritarian-libertarian" axis. The Political Compass guys, on the other hand

[Link: www.politicalcompass.org...]

define left vs. right in socio-economic terms as this is usually done outside the USA. (Incidentally, they place Hitler, y"sh, near the center on that axis, with Margaret Thatcher well to his right.)

517 Former Belgian  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:22:40am

re: #514 Salamantis

Communism, fascism, and theocracy are all collectivist totalitarianisms, but differ in the manner in which they justify themselves and their dictatorial hold on power over individuals. Communism justifies it in the name of the erasure of class distinctions, fascism justifies it in the name of racial purity and supremacy, and theocracy justifies it in the name of some religious dogma or other.

Since the hatred of Jews and blacks figured so prominently in Von Brunn's thinking, I would have to consider him to be primarily a fascist.

And please do not make the same mistake that many liberals made when they confused John Stuart Millian classical liberalism with the communist left; do not confuse Edmund Burkean classical conservatism with the fascist right, and make the mistake of thinking that you are politically required to defend right wingers because you are conservative, the way that many liberals mistakenly believe that they are politically required to defend leftists.

I would add one more "do not confuse" to this very pithy summary: romantic nationalism with the fascist right. All too many Flemish nationalists feel they have to make excuses for past Nazi collaborators and present Vlaams Belang because they somehow think they're just a more radical "spectrum variant" of the same thing. While I don't have a dog in the fight between Flemish and Walloon nationalists, it is quite possible to be a romantic nationalist and a committed anti-fascist at the same time.

518 Mr Spiffy  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:41:44pm

Von Brunn is a right wing paleo-kook, deeply antisemitic in the way that Father Coughlin was and Pat Buchanan still is. He’s attracted to Nazism for its authoritarianism and its “master race” ideology, not its socialist-influenced economics.

Sorry Charles,
That's like saying there's a distinction between the "political" and armed wings of Hamas...
or Hezbollah...
or the PLO PA

519 IanTheTerrible  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 5:19:41pm

So what if he was a registered democrat? So was George Wallace. Robert Byrd still is (and he was a member of the KKK).

I hate that this old monster is used to support the right wing terrorism meme, but to label him a left-winger is reactionary and dishonest. That said, I wish that Malkin and her ilk weren't labeled conversvative either.

520 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:10:52pm

re: #515 RedHouseBlueState

Yes, Von Brunn is a leftist. The leftists in America have changed the definitions in order to make them seem nicer, and their enemies meaner.

The left is defined as supremacy of the state over the individual. Therefore the true definition of the right should be the supremacy of the individual over the state.

Instead the left defines itself as everything they like, that's good, and nice, there fore they are able to define the right as everything they oppose and hate. Makes for great MSM reporting.

Any group, organization or individual that seeks to use the powers of the state over the individual are left, and that includes socialists, communists, progressives, liberals, the KKK, the Black Panthers, etc. They are all intent on capturing government power, so they can use it to force individuals to live as they see fit. And when they can't do it, they tend to go off the deep end, and this douche bag did in Washington.

I am of the opinion, one of the left's biggest weapons in the war on individual liberty and freedom is the left's domination of the English language. They change definitions constantly in order to frame their debate in their terms. This is a perfect example. Why is he "right wing?" Because the left says so.

If anyone can point out anything that makes Hitler right wing, I'd be interested in hearing it. Fascism started out left wing, and when it became obvious what a horror it was, the left quietly disassociated themselves from it, and then conveniently moved it over to their definition of the right.

I think its high time We The People took the language back from them, and started framing debates with real definitions.

You're wrong; that's the definition of anarchism.

521 Salamantis  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:24:24pm

re: #507 RadCap

Environmentalism isn't a leftist philosophy? The Unibomber didn't practice a radical/extreme version of this philosophy? i would have to disagree if these are indeed the claims being made here.

Theodore Kaczynski (the Unabomber) hated leftism; in fact, a substantial chunk of his infamous Manifesto was dedicated to trashing it:

[Link: www.provokateur.com...]

522 RadCap  Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:23:41pm

re: Salamantis

Theodore Kaczynski (the Unabomber) hated leftism; in fact, a substantial chunk of his infamous Manifesto was dedicated to trashing it

I didn't ask if The Unibomber was a leftist. I asked if environmentalism is a leftist philosophy. It is. And being a (rabid) practitioner of this philosophy makes him a leftist - even if he hates anyone or everyone else under that rubric.

523 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 9:14:36am

re: #522 RadCap

I didn't ask if The Unibomber was a leftist. I asked if environmentalism is a leftist philosophy. It is. And being a (rabid) practitioner of this philosophy makes him a leftist - even if he hates anyone or everyone else under that rubric.

Wrong again. It is surpassingly clear from his Manifesto that Theodore Kaczynski is an anarchist, who despises control of the individual, and strives to dismantle technological society in order to disrupt that control, which he sees technology as enabling.

Which is why he signed his notes with FC, an acronym for Fuck Computers.

524 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 9:15:57am

re: #523 Salamantis

Wrong again. It is surpassingly clear from his Manifesto that Theodore Kaczynski is an anarchist, who despises control of the individual, and strives to dismantle technological society in order to disrupt that control, which he sees technology as enabling.

Which is why he signed his notes with FC, an acronym for Fuck Computers.

And the reason that he hates leftists is because they are collectivists, and collectivism entails centralized control of the individual and the loss of individual liberty.

525 RadCap  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 9:50:16am

re: Salamantis

It is surpassingly clear from his Manifesto that Theodore Kaczynski is an anarchist

Are you now trying to claim The Unibomber was not a (rabid) environmentalist? Are you now trying to claim environmentalism is not a leftist philosophy? Unless you are, your claim I am "wrong" is false, and your claim he is an anarchist is the logical fallacy 'non-sequitur'. Of course, if you are making either claim, then it is you who would be wrong.

526 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:48:18am

re: #525 RadCap

Are you now trying to claim The Unibomber was not a (rabid) environmentalist? Are you now trying to claim environmentalism is not a leftist philosophy? Unless you are, your claim I am "wrong" is false, and your claim he is an anarchist is the logical fallacy 'non-sequitur'. Of course, if you are making either claim, then it is you who would be wrong.

His apparent environmentalism was actually a Luddite anti-technologism in the service of anarchism, and it is HE who trashes leftism and lauds amnarchism in his Manifeasto (have you even read the damn thing? I linked to it for you.) Your argument with what Ted Kaczynski is is with Ted Kaczynski, and what he explicitly and repeatedly SAYS he is, and WHY.

You just can't bear being wrong about this. But you ARE wrong about it, and egregiously so, whether or not your ego can bear the fact.

527 RadCap  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:11:35pm

re: Salamantis"APPARENT environmentalism"? LOL No no - he wasn't 'really' an environmentalist. It just SEEMED that way.

Thanks for identifying the fact that you ARE claiming The Unibomber was NOT an environmentalist. Nothing further need be said now.

528 Korla Pundit  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:31:35pm
Are you now trying to claim environmentalism is not a leftist philosophy?

No, it is not. "Environmentalism" is one of several causes, however, that were subverted in the 60s by communist agitators, along with "feminism," "civil rights" and the "peace" movement, all of which have since mean the opposite of what they call themselves.

The only leftist philosophy is that the state should take all property and control every aspect of every life, down to the molecules of air you breathe, and anybody who protests such philosophy must be destroyed.

All other causes they take up are Potemkin facades to attract useful idiots as unwitting accomplices.

That's why voting blocks such as women, blacks and Jews, and foolish young voters who haven't had time to see the deception, will always pull the lever for the "progressives," more honestly known as the statists.

529 Korla Pundit  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:32:57pm

"mean" s.b. "meant"

530 RadCap  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:42:36pm

re: Korla Pundit

No, it is not [a leftist philosophy]. "Environmentalism" is one of several causes, however, that were subverted in the 60s by communist agitators, along with "feminism," "civil rights" and the "peace" movement.

Feminism, the civil rights movement, the peace movement, etc are all political applications of philosophies. Environmentalism, on the other hand, is not merely the political application of a philosophy, but is a full fledged philosophy with a metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, *and* politics. It is as distinct a leftist philosophy as communism and socialism.

In other words, environmentalism is not a facade for something else. It is a deadly danger unto itself.

531 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:28:25pm

Let me explain this to you from the ground up, RadCap.

Collectivisms can be communist (left) or fascist (right) or theocratic. The common thread between all collectivisms is that they, by virtue of the fact that they privilege the collective over the individual, are all authoritarian, and the more extreme forms are in fact totalitarian. But they differ as far as the rationale they claim in order to (pseudo)legitimize their impingement upon individual freedoms. Communist (left) collectivisms do so in the name of the erasure of class distinctions, fascist (right) collectivisms do so in the name of racial purity and supremacy, and theocratic collectivisms do so in the name of some religious dogma or other. Thus there is a left-right spectrum among collectivisms concerning the rationales they employ for justifying their usurpation of individual liberties.

Do not confuse John Stuart Millian classical liberalism with the communist left, or Edmund Burkean classical conservatism with the fascist right. The difference between them is that classical conservatives are more loathe to embrace change for change's sake; they are less likely to gratuitously experiment with the machinery of government, and more likely to adopt an 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' attitude, as they claim that, more often than not, unnecessary fixes tend to result in fucking up a situation that wasn't fucked up before, while classical liberals are more likely to contend that if we never try to find a better way, we will never succeed in finding one. As you can see, this is a difference between the more cautious (liberals would say timid) approach to governmental innovation and change advocated by classical conservatives, and a more adventurous (consevatives would say reckless) approach advocated by classical liberals, not the difference between class erasure and racial purity/supremacy that defines the left and right collectivisms.

Now, anarchism occupies the opposite, absolute individualist pole from the various collectivisms, be they left, right, or center, of yet another axis. All collectivisms privilege the collective over the individual; anarchism is based upon the supremacy of the individual, to the point that pure anarchism rejects the idea of any government at all as illegitimate and unjustifiable. That is why it really makes no sense to speak of left or right anarchisms; it would be logically self-contradictory to even attempt to provide a class erasure, racial purity/supremacy, or religious dogma justification for something that one has already rejected a priori as illegitimate and unjustifiable. However, pure anarchism presents the problem that there can be no aid from a nonexistent government, even when such aid is direly needed; it degenerates into the Hobbesian unmediated and unconstrained primitive war of all against all, where life becomes poor, nasty, british and short.

Now it is true that liberalism has tended to favor larger governments, and conservatism has tended to favor smaller ones, but this is because liberalism is more geared to look for new ways for the government to help people (sometimes against the will of many of them), and conservatism is more geared to look for ways in which people can free themselves from unnecessary or intrusive government, and the taxes wasted to fund such superfluities. But this is a distinction contained within the sweet spot center occupied by constitutional democratic republics, which view government as a necessary vehicle for the creation and implementation of a collective citizen electoral consensus, while still constitutionally preserving individual freedoms from majority tyranny.

Theodore Kaczynski is what is known as an anarcho-primitivist, and as such he neither fits within the communist-fascist spectrum manifested by various collectivities, nor within the classical liberal - classical conservative rate-of-change spectrum. Rather, he inhabits the polar individualist opposite from all collectivities, left, right, or religious.

532 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:37:19pm

Here is proof of my contention:

Anarcho-primitivism:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Anarcho-primitivism is an anarchist critique of the origins and progress of civilization. According to anarcho-primitivism, the shift from hunter-gatherer to agricultural subsistence gave rise to social stratification, coercion, and alienation. Anarcho-primitivists advocate a return to non-"civilized" ways of life through deindustrialisation, abolition of division of labour or specialization, and abandonment of large-scale organization technologies. There are other non-anarchist forms of primitivism, and not all primitivists point to the same phenomenon as the source of modern, civilized problems.

Many traditional anarchists reject the critique of civilization, many even denying that anarcho-primitivism has anything to do with anarchism, while some, such as Wolfi Landstreicher, endorse the critique but do not consider themselves anarcho-primitivists. Anarcho-primitivists are often distinguished by their focus on the praxis of achieving a feral state of being through "rewilding".

Beyond Leftism

Primitivists do not see themselves as part of the Left (see also post-left anarchy). Rather they view the socialist and liberal orientations as corrupt. Primitivists argue that the Left has proven itself to be a monumental failure in its objectives. The Left, according to primitivists, is a general term and can roughly describe all socialist leanings (from social democrats and liberals to communists) which wish to re-socialize “the masses” into a more “progressive” agenda, often using coercive and manipulative approaches in order to create a false “unity” or the creation of political parties. While primitivists understand that the methods or extremes in implementation may differ, the overall push is seen as the same: the institution of a collectivized and monolithic world-view based on morality.

Ted Kaczynski's Unabomber Manifesto:

[Link: www.provokateur.com...]

INTRODUCTION
1. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in "advanced" countries.

2. The industrial-technological system may survive or it may break down. If it survives, it MAY eventually achieve a low level of physical and psychological suffering, but only after passing through a long and very painful period of adjustment and only at the cost of permanently reducing human beings and many other living organisms to engineered products and mere cogs in the social machine. Furthermore, if the system survives, the consequences will be inevitable: There is no way of reforming or modifying the system so as to prevent it from depriving people of dignity and autonomy.

3. If the system breaks down the consequences will still be very painful. But the bigger the system grows the more disastrous the results of its breakdown will be, so if it is to break down it had best break down sooner rather than later.

to be continued...

533 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:47:47pm

4. We therefore advocate a revolution against the industrial system. This revolution may or may not make use of violence: it may be sudden or it may be a relatively gradual process spanning a few decades. We can't predict any of that. But we do outline in a very general way the measures that those who hate the industrial system should take in order to prepare the way for a revolution against that form of society. This is not to be a POLITICAL revolution. Its object will be to overthrow not governments but the economic and technological basis of the present society.

5. In this article we give attention to only some of the negative developments that have grown out of the industrial-technological system. Other such developments we mention only briefly or ignore altogether. This does not mean that we regard these other developments as unimportant. For practical reasons we have to confine our discussion to areas that have received insufficient public attention or in which we have something new to say. For example, since there are well-developed environmental and wilderness movements, we have written very little about environmental degradation or the destruction of wild nature, even though we consider these to be highly important.

THE PSYCHOLOGY OF MODERN LEFTISM
6. Almost everyone will agree that we live in a deeply troubled society. One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism, so a discussion of the psychology of leftism can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of modern society in general.

7. But what is leftism? During the first half of the 20th century leftism could have been practically identified with socialism. Today the movement is fragmented and it is not clear who can properly be called a leftist. When we speak of leftists in this article we have in mind mainly socialists, collectivists, "politically correct" types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists and the like. But not everyone who is associated with one of these movements is a leftist. What we are trying to get at in discussing leftism is not so much a movement or an ideology as a psychological type, or rather a collection of related types. Thus, what we mean by "leftism" will emerge more clearly in the course of our discussion of leftist psychology (Also, see paragraphs 227-230.)

8. Even so, our conception of leftism will remain a good deal less clear than we would wish, but there doesn't seem to be any remedy for this. All we are trying to do is indicate in a rough and approximate way the two psychological tendencies that we believe are the main driving force of modern leftism. We by no means claim to be telling the WHOLE truth about leftist psychology. Also, our discussion is meant to apply to modern leftism only. We leave open the question of the extent to which our discussion could be applied to the leftists of the 19th and early 20th century.

9. The two psychological tendencies that underlie modern leftism we call "feelings of inferiority" and "oversocialization." Feelings of inferiority are characteristic of modern leftism as a whole, while oversocialization is characteristic only of a certain segment of modern leftism; but this segment is highly influential.

Sal: He goes on to discuss both feelings of inferiority and oversocialization within contemporary leftism in most excoriating fashion.

As can readily be seen, Ted Kaczynski's views both of the undesirability of mass technological society (and the individual-freedom-strangling collectivism he views it as enabling) and of the over-socially collectivist and inferiority-groundedfreedom-surrendering tendencies of leftism are identical with the views of anarcho-primitivism in general. Thereofre it is absurd and nonsensical in the extreme to describe Ted Kaczynski as a leftis; in fact, there is nothing he abhors as much as he despises leftism, except for contemporary mass technology.

534 RadCap  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:56:00pm

Salamantis - You seem to want to falsely limit 'right' and 'right-wing' to the form of collectivism identified as fascism, and 'left' and 'left-wing' to the form of collectivism identified as communism. Those are invalid limitations.

You additionally seem to want to divorce any form of individualism from these categories as well - which is why you divorce 'classical conservativism and liberalism' from the "collectivisms" spectrum, ie political premises which are different *mixes* of individualism and collectivism as a result of different ethical premises (and which is also why 'religious' is not a third category from right or left as you indicate). In other words, this is also an invalid limitation on 'left' and 'right'.

Any arguments/conclusions based on these invalid limitations (read: your three posts) are themselves thus invalid.

The facts (as have already been identified) are these: Environmentalism is a leftist philosophy. The Unibomber was a (rabid) environmentalist. Therefore the Unibomber was 'left-wing'. That he disagreed with *other* leftist philosophies doesn't change any of these facts.

535 RadCap  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:14:52am

I'm outta here. :)

536 Korla Pundit  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:12:04am

It is irrelevant how you or I or any political science major wishes to define left and right. The issue at hand is who the mainstream media, working in tandem with the Democratic party and its affiliates, wish to paint as right-wing, and with the same stroke to paint these lone nut killers as a natural extension of their political punditry.

Specifically, they are targeting talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Mark Levin and grassroot movements like the Tea Parties, and even some conservative blogs. They want to shut them up, and just like they didn't let a good crisis go to waste after the Oklahoma City bombing, they will try to tie this to their political foes like an anchor, to label any protest of Obama's march to the cliff "hate speech" and "incitement to commit murder."

It's classic scapegoatism and demonization and potentially criminalization of political rivals. Always the first sign of a nation in a spiral toward fascism.

537 RedHouseBlueState  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 10:29:28am

re: 520 Salamantis

"You're wrong; that's the definition of anarchism."

Close, but no (Cuban) cigar. Anarchism is the abolition of all government. Which by the way doesn't really work either.

Supremacy of the individual over government does not necessarily mean no government. It means a government that is small, very limited in scope, and well aware of the concept that freedom does not come from it, subservient to the will of the people.

In other words a government like the one we used to have before the constitution started being used for toilet paper by elected politicians.

538 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:10:03pm

re: #537 RedHouseBlueState

re: 520 Salamantis

"You're wrong; that's the definition of anarchism."

Close, but no (Cuban) cigar. Anarchism is the abolition of all government. Which by the way doesn't really work either.

Supremacy of the individual over government does not necessarily mean no government. It means a government that is small, very limited in scope, and well aware of the concept that freedom does not come from it, subservient to the will of the people.

In other words a government like the one we used to have before the constitution started being used for toilet paper by elected politicians.

What is a more extreme supremacy of the individual over the state than the complete, total and utter elimination of the state? That, in a nutshell, is utopia for anarchism.

539 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:26:41pm

re: #534 RadCap

Salamantis - You seem to want to falsely limit 'right' and 'right-wing' to the form of collectivism identified as fascism, and 'left' and 'left-wing' to the form of collectivism identified as communism. Those are invalid limitations.

Nope; they are the very DEFINITION of the left and right. You have been confused into mistakenly accepting classical Burkean conserviatism as rightist, just as many liberals have been confused into mistakenly accepting classical Millian liberalism as leftist. This has heppened because both theocratic and fascist elements have infiltrated classical conservatism, just as communist elements have infiltrated classical liberalism, and legitimate members of both stances have mistakenly claimed these illegitimate elements as their own.

You additionally seem to want to divorce any form of individualism from these categories as well - which is why you divorce 'classical conservativism and liberalism' from the "collectivisms" spectrum, ie political premises which are different *mixes* of individualism and collectivism as a result of different ethical premises (and which is also why 'religious' is not a third category from right or left as you indicate). In other words, this is also an invalid limitation on 'left' and 'right'.

No, it isn't, because the conservative and liberal tendencies regarding less or more government take place within the context of constitutional democratic republics, a context that it anti-democratically violated both by fascist, theocratic and communist collectivisms, and by anarchist super-individualism.

Any arguments/conclusions based on these invalid limitations (read: your three posts) are themselves thus invalid.

No, my three posts conclusively demonstrate why your stance that Ted Kaczynski must be leftist is irretrivably invalid.

The facts (as have already been identified) are these: Environmentalism is a leftist philosophy. The Unibomber was a (rabid) environmentalist. Therefore the Unibomber was 'left-wing'. That he disagreed with *other* leftist philosophies doesn't change any of these facts.

So the environmentalism of the Third Reich was leftist? You've apparently bought into the self-serving Goldbergian political revisionism that delights all those who embrace the extension of the No True Scotsman fallacy that claims that not only cannot people who commit detestable acts not be related to one's own stance, but that they must be related to the stance that one most abhors, facts, logic, evidence and history be damned.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But Kaczynski was neither communist nor fascist; he was an anarcho-primitivist:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Would a leftist have ever written Ship of Fools?

[Link: www.sacredfools.org...]

Hell no.

540 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:37:14pm

re: #534 RadCap

Faulty formatting repaired.

Salamantis - You seem to want to falsely limit 'right' and 'right-wing' to the form of collectivism identified as fascism, and 'left' and 'left-wing' to the form of collectivism identified as communism. Those are invalid limitations.

Nope; they are the very DEFINITION of the left and right. You have been confused into mistakenly accepting classical Burkean conservatism as rightist, just as many liberals have been confused into mistakenly accepting classical Millian liberalism as leftist. This has heppened because both theocratic and fascist elements have infiltrated classical conservatism, just as communist elements have infiltrated classical liberalism, and legitimate members of both stances have been deceived into claiming these illegitimate elements as their own.

You additionally seem to want to divorce any form of individualism from these categories as well - which is why you divorce 'classical conservativism and liberalism' from the "collectivisms" spectrum, ie political premises which are different *mixes* of individualism and collectivism as a result of different ethical premises (and which is also why 'religious' is not a third category from right or left as you indicate). In other words, this is also an invalid limitation on 'left' and 'right'.

No, it isn't, because the conservative and liberal tendencies regarding less or more government take place within the context of constitutional democratic republics, a context that it anti-democratically violated and transgressed both by fascist, theocratic and communist collectivisms, which reject both the democratic vote and constitutionally guaranteed freedoms for all, and by anarchist super-individualism, which has no use for them.

Any arguments/conclusions based on these invalid limitations (read: your three posts) are themselves thus invalid.

No, my three posts conclusively demonstrate why your stance that Ted Kaczynski must be leftist is irretrivably invalid.

The facts (as have already been identified) are these: Environmentalism is a leftist philosophy. The Unibomber was a (rabid) environmentalist. Therefore the Unibomber was 'left-wing'. That he disagreed with *other* leftist philosophies doesn't change any of these facts.

So the environmentalism of the Third Reich was leftist? You've apparently bought into the self-serving Goldbergian political revisionism that delights all those who embrace the extension of the No True Scotsman fallacy that claims that not only cannot people who commit detestable acts not be related to one's own stance, but that they must be related to the stance that one most abhors, facts, logic, evidence and history be damned.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But Kaczynski was neither communist nor fascist; he was an anarcho-primitivist, and has been widely identified as such:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Would a leftist have ever written Ship of Fools?

[Link: www.sacredfools.org...]

Not just no but hell no.

541 RadCap  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:53:53pm

"they are the very DEFINITION of the left and right."

No confusion. No mistake. Simply a rejection of your invalidly limited definitions of fascism as 'right' and 'communism' as left.

542 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 9:13:45pm

re: #541 RadCap

"they are the very DEFINITION of the left and right."

No confusion. No mistake. Simply a rejection of your invalidly limited definitions of fascism as 'right' and 'communism' as left.

Simply your confusion of right with classical Burkean conservatism and left with classical Millian liberalism.

And your unreasoning insistence that a man who abhored leftism in everything he wrote was nevertheless somehow a leftist.

543 RadCap  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 11:32:37pm

"your unreasoning insistence"

I've provided the reasoning. You disagree with it (because you have invalid definitions). And now you engage in personal attacks. Goodbye.

544 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 9:57:35am

re: #543 RadCap

"your unreasoning insistence"

I've provided the reasoning. You disagree with it (because you have invalid definitions). And now you engage in personal attacks. Goodbye.

You've provided no reasons whatsoever; all you've provided is your bizarre insistence that an anarcho-primitivist must be a leftist because it would please you for such a falsehood to be true. Your definition of a leftist appears to be whatever the hell you do not like. You probably think that Hitler was a leftist, too. And that Stormfront and the National Alliance and the KKK and David Duke and Pat Buchanan are.

As if they are ideologically interchangeable with the Weathermen, and Code Pink, and World Can't Wait, and International ANSWER.

Brainwashed by Goldbergian historical revisionism you are.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ...
Cheechako
3 hours ago
Views: 28 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...
KGxvi
6 hours ago
Views: 80 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 1