Riots in Tehran

Walter L. Newton Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:12:11pm

re: #15 Dekar

I hope the people get serious this time

But there is nothing to replace the current government. Even the opposition candidate was still dedicated to a Islamic theocracy. Right now they would be substituting a hard-liner for a little less than hard-liner. The Mullahs would still have all the control.

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:12:12pm

re: #22 Sharmuta

That won't happen.

I know.

*bangs head against wall*

Another golden opportunity to support Liberty against Tyranny, and we'll sit with our thumbs up our fucking asses.

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:12:52pm

re: #9 Walter L. Newton

Site up, no new info since he and his wife voted.

There is a crawler on the website that is in Farsi only, it updates constantly.

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:13:01pm

re: #21 MrPaulRevere

I expected some low level street protests, but the size of the crowds is stunning.

I kinda brushed it off this morning because the crowds looked small but it seems there might be something going on.

lobo91 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:13:15pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Do you think that's a real possibility? Which side would the military take? I'm not sure if there's enough logistical support for a revolution.

What really matters is which side the Republican Guards take.

The regular military is cannon fodder.

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:13:23pm

Guessin' nothing's gonna come out of it 'cause nothin' ever came out of the previous riots. Would be glad to be proven wrong though. Having anyone that's semi-sane instead of the wild-eyed Ahmadinejad would be an improvement.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:13:29pm

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

I'm reading some comments about the elections at the BBC, and it's almost amazing that anyone commenting is surprised. It was as if these younger Iranians thought they had any chance at a free election.

"I am just shocked. I still cannot believe the results. There is the possibility of massive rigging. The result is quite unexpected in Iran. Everybody thought Mousavi would have a landslide victory. Unfortunately democracy for Iranians is a far-fetched ream. Today is the national mourning for democracy in Iran. With the existence of such a complicated power system in Iran and the supreme leader on top no reformation can take place in near future. Long live democracy. Morteza, Shiraz, Iran"

Did they think this was going to be fair?

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

There is still also no proof the election was rigged. I am not saying it wasn't but it also true that the Western Media was playing up the opposition in this election and that in itself may have been only fantasy.

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:14:27pm

re: #33 Nevergiveup

There is still also no proof the election was rigged. I am not saying it wasn't but it also true that the Western Media was playing up the opposition in this election and that in itself may have been only fantasy.

Puh-lease. What proof do you need?

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:14:34pm

re: #24 Cato the Elder

You're delusional. A "strong statement" would be seen as foreign meddling and rally the Iranians behind the authorities.

Nope, one thing the young generation has been looking for is a sign of support from outside. Without that they know they'll be doomed to failure.

A statement saying we don't recognize the government as legitimate would work wonders for them.

They are smart enough to know the difference between support and meddling.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:15:18pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

I think Obama made a statement yesterday praising the election. I somehow doubt he's going to back off on that.

That should teach him to keep his mouth shut till he knows what's going on. It is the difference between being the President Of the United States and a State Legislator.

Walter L. Newton Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:15:33pm

re: #33 Nevergiveup

There is still also no proof the election was rigged. I am not saying it wasn't but it also true that the Western Media was playing up the opposition in this election and that in itself may have been only fantasy.

That's the point I am trying to make. It all seems a fantasy that some of the Iranian people have taken to heart. Probably something to keep them busy. I agree, we don't know, but nothing is going to come of this, it can only get worst.

sadhu Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:15:39pm

I left Tehran the same day as the Shah -- those were wild days -- this will be bigger.

VioletTiger Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:16:16pm

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

I'm reading some comments about the elections at the BBC, and it's almost amazing that anyone commenting is surprised. It was as if these younger Iranians thought they had any chance at a free election.

"I am just shocked. I still cannot believe the results. There is the possibility of massive rigging. The result is quite unexpected in Iran. Everybody thought Mousavi would have a landslide victory. Unfortunately democracy for Iranians is a far-fetched ream. Today is the national mourning for democracy in Iran. With the existence of such a complicated power system in Iran and the supreme leader on top no reformation can take place in near future. Long live democracy. Morteza, Shiraz, Iran"

Did they think this was going to be fair?

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Maybe they did think it would be fair, and hence it magnifies their anger. Now maybe they will understand what they are up against if they really want freedom.

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:16:32pm

The mad mullahs would go 'Tienanmen square' in a heartbeat, no one should kid themselves.

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:16:34pm

Some commentary......

Blog thread at the NYT with more video

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:16:46pm

re: #38 sadhu

Bigger than a Revolution? What do you expect to happen?

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:17:05pm

re: #35 jcm

Nope, one thing the young generation has been looking for is a sign of support from outside. Without that they know they'll be doomed to failure.

A statement saying we don't recognize the government as legitimate would work wonders for them.

They are smart enough to know the difference between support and meddling.

The Shia in Iraq mistook statements of support for actual support by Bush Sr after the Gulf War. I think anything coming from Obama would be viewed as "just words".

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:17:17pm

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:17:30pm

re: #40 MrPaulRevere

The mad mullahs would go 'Tienanmen square' in a heartbeat, no one should kid themselves.

Yep.

They won't let go without a fight.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:17:32pm

re: #34 guftafs

Puh-lease. What proof do you need?

And what proof do you have it was rigged?

Walter L. Newton Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:17:35pm

re: #39 VioletTiger

Maybe they did think it would be fair, and hence it magnifies their anger. Now maybe they will understand what they are up against if they really want freedom.

And you are making my point. If the people themselves, inside the country, can be made to believe that this could have been a fair election, then what kind of influence can the rest of the world have. None.

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:17:46pm

re: #40 MrPaulRevere

The mad mullahs would go 'Tienanmen square' in a heartbeat, no one should kid themselves.

That's what I was thinking.

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:18:00pm

RIGGED: Iranian SELLING votes

BBC live video of Tehran riots

buying votes. the man with moustache on right selling votes.
What was the highest price you sold for? 4000-5000 toman ($4-5)

they are haggling about the purchase of the vote.

Without a Persian speaker on the blog I guess we can't verify this one.

persiankippah Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:18:07pm

Both candidates denied Israel's right to exist. Am I supposed to feel bad for these people?

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:18:49pm

re: #46 Nevergiveup

And what proof do you have it was rigged?

The default when dealing with dictatorships is that they do not allow free elections. That's the way I see it anyway. Wouldn't be much of a dictatorship otherwise, would it?

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:18:51pm

re: #38 sadhu

I left Tehran the same day as the Shah -- those were wild days -- this will be bigger.

Why would this be bigger? What will sustain it? Tienanmen also brought people's hopes in the West up, but countered with sufficient brutality, and uprising can be clamped down.

Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:18:59pm

re: #35 jcm

Nope, one thing the young generation has been looking for is a sign of support from outside. Without that they know they'll be doomed to failure.

A statement saying we don't recognize the government as legitimate would work wonders for them.

They are smart enough to know the difference between support and meddling.

OK. Maybe. Worth a try, I guess. (What do we have to lose? Dinnerjacket's respect?)

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #40 MrPaulRevere

The mad mullahs would go 'Tienanmen square' in a heartbeat, no one should kid themselves.

No doubt. Some Iranian friends of mine have told me that the government sometimes employs Hizbollah thugs to come in and "dispose" of any dissenters. Many Iranians are rubbed the wrong way by foreign Arabs coming in and knocking off their neighbors.

I have to confess, I don't know anything about Dinnerjacket's opponent in this election. Is there any point in hoping that he somehow ends up in control? I mean, I thought all of the candidates had to be approved by the ayatollahs in advance there anyway, so that it didn't really matter who won.

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:20:02pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

I think Obama made a statement yesterday praising the election. I somehow doubt he's going to back off on that.

"0" was beaming too.
Obama Says Iran's 'Robust' Election Debate Hopeful Sign for US-Iran Engagement
Hopey-Changey-Rainbow-Unicorn-Freedom............. ..

sadhu Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:20:33pm

re: #42 Lincolntf

Bigger than a Revolution? What do you expect to happen?

chaos

Iran, Pakistan, N. Korea, Israel, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah --- it's gotta pop

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:20:45pm

re: #43 BryanS

The Shia in Iraq mistook statements of support for actual support by Bush Sr after the Gulf War. I think anything coming from Obama would be viewed as "just words".

With Obama it would be, and they'd be right to be cautious.

The Iranians also look to the French, so Sarkozy could also do or say something.

It's moments like this that require boldness, especially on the part of Iranians, bold to seize their own future and liberty. But also on the part of western leaders to say so.

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:21:10pm

re: #48 Sharmuta

That's what I was thinking.

Yep, the rioters won't get anywhere without serious muscle, such as part of the armed forces within, or the US Secretary of State promising to support the rebels.

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:21:24pm

re: #46 Nevergiveup

And what proof do you have it was rigged?

It's Iran, it's a Thugocracy.

No such thing as a fair election.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:21:42pm

re: #56 sadhu

chaos

Iran, Pakistan, N. Korea, Israel, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah --- it's gotta pop

Why does it gotta?

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:21:54pm

re: #57 jcm

With Obama it would be, and they'd be right to be cautious.

The Iranians also look to the French, so Sarkozy could also do or say something.

It's moments like this that require boldness, especially on the part of Iranians, bold to seize their own future and liberty. But also on the part of western leaders to say so.

We could only hope--heh, hope. Imagine what a game changer such an event would be in the middle east.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:22:32pm

re: #58 guftafs

Yep, the rioters won't get anywhere without serious muscle, such as part of the armed forces within, or the US Secretary of State promising to support the rebels.

Support the "rebels" ( who are they ) with what?

lobo91 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:22:59pm

re: #43 BryanS

The Shia in Iraq mistook statements of support for actual support by Bush Sr after the Gulf War. I think anything coming from Obama would be viewed as "just words".

If there was ever a US administration that would have come to their aid, it certainly isn't this one.

Obama just made a speech a few days ago where he essentially apologized for the last time we interfered in Iran, remember?

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:23:02pm

re: #59 jcm

It's Iran, it's a Thugocracy.

No such thing as a fair election.

And if the opposition had won would that have been rigged?

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:23:44pm

re: #63 lobo91

If there was ever a US administration that would have come to their aid, it certainly isn't this one.

Obama just made a speech a few days ago where he essentially apologized for the last time we interfered in Iran, remember?

Words have consequences

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:23:46pm

re: #23 jcm

Regular Army would go with the people. The Pasadaran (Revolutionary Guard) with Dinnerjacket and the Mullahs. The RG is currently more powerful politically and logistically, but the Army backed by the people would be a formidable force.

(Can't believe I'm saying this in public discussion)
I'd love to see the Artesh at the Pasdaran's throat.

First thing would be the field-grade officers arresting the Pasdaran cronies who Short Shit put in over the past few years (cashiered the Artesh's top commanders.)

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:23:58pm

re: #61 BryanS

We could only hope--heh, hope. Imagine what a game changer such an event would be in the middle east.

Iran doesn't have to be necessarily pro-western. Just secularized enough to pull the state sponsorship from the Islamic radicals to make a huge difference.

Summer Seale Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:24:52pm

Honestly, whatever the outcome....I'm simply not holding my breath.

zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:24:59pm

The BBC video (first posted earlier) is excellent:

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:25:02pm

The BBC video at the NYT thread is good. The reporter is saying the Iranians are chanting "Death to the government that cheats its own people".

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:25:03pm

re: #67 jcm

Iran doesn't have to be necessarily pro-western. Just secularized enough to pull the state sponsorship from the Islamic radicals to make a huge difference.

I agree but I just see NO evidence of anything like that coming down the pike

chicagodudewhotrades Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:25:59pm

Wasn't there a movement in Iranian universities about 5 or more years ago that the government crushed? The college kids wanted more freedom but after a while the government moved in and stopped it? The movement spread from the campuses onto the streets because I remember footage of riot police battling the protesters on the streets of Tehran. Does anybody remember the details of that and what caused it?

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:26:09pm

re: #64 Nevergiveup

And if the opposition had won would that have been rigged?

First there isn't opposition. Mousavi was also picked by the Mullahs to run. The youth saw him as the better than the others and pinned a lot on him.

If Mousavi won I saw it as the Mullahs trying to reset the political table to gain time, both at home and abroad.

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:26:51pm

re: #72 chicagodudewhotrades

Wasn't there a movement in Iranian universities about 5 or more years ago that the government crushed? The college kids wanted more freedom but after a while the government moved in and stopped it? The movement spread from the campuses onto the streets because I remember footage of riot police battling the protesters on the streets of Tehran. Does anybody remember the details of that and what caused it?

The leaders were hoisted aloft with crane cables around their necks on campus.

amir Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:27:00pm

I wish I had something intelligent to say about the elections in Iran.

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:27:35pm

re: #73 jcm

First there isn't opposition. Mousavi was also picked by the Mullahs to run. The youth saw him as the better than the others and pinned a lot on him.

If Mousavi won I saw it as the Mullahs trying to reset the political table to gain time, both at home and abroad.

Precisely.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:28:22pm

re: #73 jcm

First there isn't opposition. Mousavi was also picked by the Mullahs to run. The youth saw him as the better than the others and pinned a lot on him.

If Mousavi won I saw it as the Mullahs trying to reset the political table to gain time, both at home and abroad.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but people here are trying to make it out like there is going to be an uprising in Iran and that the "election" was stolen? I don't see anything like even remotely happening.

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:28:46pm

re: #70 Sharmuta

The BBC video at the NYT thread is good. The reporter is saying the Iranians are chanting "Death to the government that cheats its own people".

Damn, those are some brave Iranians.

What was Mousavi's platform?

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:29:23pm

More video:

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:29:36pm

re: #62 Nevergiveup

Support the "rebels" ( who are they ) with what?

Don't know. It's hard to conceive of anyone worse that Ahmadinejad, though. Or perhaps they are.

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:29:45pm

re: #67 jcm

Iran doesn't have to be necessarily pro-western. Just secularized enough to pull the state sponsorship from the Islamic radicals to make a huge difference.

Curious how Moussavi was so threatening to the ayatollahs. Even a modest change under him--and he was approved to run anyway by them--was more than they could tolerate.

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:29:52pm

"According to Mousavi’s website, a group of employees in the Ministry of the Interior in an open letter warned that the votes have been changed and manipulated in the state election commission." [Link: niacblog.wordpress.com...]

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:30:00pm

imagine, just wanting to be able to hold hands with your girlfriend in public......
God help the Iranians.

davinvalkri Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:30:22pm

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi was arrested Saturday shortly after he was defeated at the polls by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an unofficial source reported.

According to the source, the presidential hopeful was arrested en route to the home of Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Nevertheless, it should be noted that were a number of contradictory reports from Iran on Saturday, in a large part due to the heavy restrictions imposed on the media in the Islamic Republic, in particular on foreign reporters

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Sigh. Business as usual in Iran, I see. Maybe these riots will do something. Probably not, though. ARGH. Why don't we use our carrier presence to exert some torque on these guys?

bbcrackmonkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:30:24pm

This election is obviously fraudulent.

All the exit-polling and the pre-election polling showed Mousavi winning the election. If Dinnerjacket had as many supporters as the "official" results suggest then there would be celebrations, not riots.

The official results even show Mahmoud winning Mousavi's home province and home city by some 57%, which is laughable. Khameini has had a long-standing grudge against Mousavi and would not allow him to win, and the IRG military industrial complex with its fingers in all the economic pie didn't want their golden boy removed from office so they're all too happy to polish their jackboots and stamp out any resistance.

Iran has shut down cellphones, text messaging, facebook, etc. whereas just a month before the Revolutionary Guard promised they would not interfere with the elections, yet the night of the elections they were out in force with tear gas and riot gear.

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:30:25pm

Any regime change is up to the Iranians. They have to decided to spend the blood and sweat to obtain their freedom from the Mullahs.

No way around that one.

Silence from the west is tacit support of the status quo.

A consistent statement from all western nations would not be seen as meddling, but support for a new Iran (Persian) to move beyond the Mad Mullahs radical agenda.

sadhu Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:31:02pm

twitter #iran: [Link: search.twitter.com...]

lobo91 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:31:12pm

re: #73 jcm

First there isn't opposition. Mousavi was also picked by the Mullahs to run. The youth saw him as the better than the others and pinned a lot on him.

If Mousavi won I saw it as the Mullahs trying to reset the political table to gain time, both at home and abroad.

And sadly, it probably would have worked, given the utter cluelessness of the Obama administration.

Susan Rice would have been at the Security Council on Monday, proposing the lifting of sanctions against Iran.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:31:23pm

re: #80 guftafs

Don't know. It's hard to conceive of anyone worse that Ahmadinejad, though. Or perhaps they are.

Well if your Sec of State or President of the United States you better know who exactly your supporting and what the possible consequences might be. That's all I am saying.

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:31:43pm

I wonder if this time the Iranian people are not going to take this. Not a full blown revolution, per se, but perhaps a drawn out unrest...?

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:32:28pm

Obama "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Lots of news here

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:32:32pm

re: #77 Nevergiveup

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but people here are trying to make it out like there is going to be an uprising in Iran and that the "election" was stolen? I don't see anything like even remotely happening.

the election means little except to piss some people off...open revolt will result in a bloodbath...nothing gained...would you forfeit your life for a lost cause at 25yrs old?

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:32:35pm

re: #81 BryanS

Curious how Moussavi was so threatening to the ayatollahs. Even a modest change under him--and he was approved to run anyway by them--was more than they could tolerate.

Since he was picked to run by the Mullahs, as an acceptable alternative. I think the threat came from the amount of support he was getting from the people. If they allowed him to win, he would have been strong enough politically to actually make some changes.

Which master he would have obeyed is another matter.

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:32:37pm

Alerts from Tehran @ Tehran Bureau - Late pictures and video.

Twitter / Tehran Search

Flickr / Iran Search - Organized by recent photos.

zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:33:17pm

re: #75 amir

I wish I had something intelligent to say about the elections in Iran.

Here, I'll help you:

For decades, Iran was pro-Western and comparatively "progressive" by Middle East standards. Then after the Revolution of 1979, the repressive elements of society took over and imposed theocratic law. But the modernistic people never went away, and half the country still wants things to be the way they used to be -- part of the modern world, freedom of action and thought, accepted members of the international community again.

They are trying to throw off the yoke of religious oppression. But, as we suspect, the government is doing crooked things to make sure the reformers never get near the reins of power again.

We have no way to asses "percentages," what percent of the country really wants to stay medieval, and what percent wants to become part of the 21st century. We can only guess.

Frankly, I'm hoping for a counter-revolution to start right now. But it probably won't happen, unfortunately.

wiffersnapper Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:33:25pm

Dang these riots make reactions to American election results look sedate. Never thought I'd see the day.

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:33:29pm

Man UP President Obama.
Don't go wobley on Iran now.

SixDegrees Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:33:56pm

re: #33 Nevergiveup

There is still also no proof the election was rigged. I am not saying it wasn't but it also true that the Western Media was playing up the opposition in this election and that in itself may have been only fantasy.

I had the same thought earlier today. The Western press, at least, doesn't have anybody on the ground over there who isn't rigidly controlled by one faction or the other. And the press itself nowadays is too stupid to report such things. Meanwhile, nearly all of the reporting appearing in Western media is being churned out by benchwarmers, biases fully operational. They were heavily invested in seeing Ahmedinijad ousted for a number of reasons, not least of which would be the ability to spin it as a "victory" for 0bama's "new" (read "lack of") foreign policy. There's a story they want to tell, and they certainly wouldn't let facts get in the way of the telling. It's never slowed them down in the past.

It seems to me entirely possible that the reporting leading up to the election was heavily skewed toward one side, and the manipulated expectations that resulted are now bearing fruit.

I'd invoke the 48 hour rule on any "news" coming out of Iran, even on the best of days.

On the other hand, the youth vote was heavily using text messaging to rally and organize themselves. Just prior to the start of voting, text messaging services for the entire country "malfunctioned," which certainly seems odd. Possible, I suppose, that the infrastructure was overwhelmed, but it's just as possible that it was a hamfisted attempt to dick around with the opposition. It would certainly be worthwhile to take a look at possible voting irregularities, but to be blunt the chances of that happening are so near zero as to be no different from it.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:34:19pm

re: #97 IslandLibertarian

Man UP President Obama.
Don't go wobley on Iran now.

To late

100

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:34:50pm

re: #89 Nevergiveup

Well if your Sec of State or President of the United States you better know who exactly your supporting and what the possible consequences might be. That's all I am saying.

Absolutely. But our president doesn't see it that way. He's just excited that there was some robust debate.

I wonder how he feels about the "robust debate" that's now going on between the demonstrators on the street and the riot police.

101

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:35:26pm

re: #99 Nevergiveup

To late

Got Hope?

/'tis the pity.........

102

Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:35:30pm

We can hope for it, but I'm very doubtful this is going to turn into any kind of revolution or regime change.

103

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:35:41pm

Faulty Election Data

Iran’s Interior Ministry has declared President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the winner of yesterday’s election. This has been rejected by all the three opponents of Mr. Ahmadinejad, Messrs Mir Hossein Mousavi, Mahdi Karroubi, and Mohsen Rezaaee.

The best evidence for the validity of the arguments of the three opponents of the President for rejecting the results declared by the Interior Ministry is the data the Ministry itself has issued. In the chart below, compiled based on the data released by the Ministry and announced by Iran’s national television, a perfect linear relation between the votes received by the President and Mir Hossein Mousavi has been maintained, and the President’s vote is always half of the President’s. The vertical axis (y) shows Mr. Mousavi’s votes, and the horizontal (x) the President’s. R^2 shows the correlation coefficient: the closer it is to 1.0, the more perfect is the fit, and it is 0.9995, as close to 1.0 as possible for any type of data.

104

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:36:26pm

re: #100 Last Mohican

Absolutely. But our president doesn't see it that way. He's just excited that there was some robust debate.

I wonder how he feels about the "robust debate" that's now going on between the demonstrators on the street and the riot police.

he has no clue...any point of view or tripe he spews is meaningless...most people outside of the blogs are just as clueless

105

Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:37:16pm

re: #90 Sharmuta

I wonder if this time the Iranian people are not going to take this. Not a full blown revolution, per se, but perhaps a drawn out unrest...?

Wouldn't it be nice?

106

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:37:33pm

Have they blamed the Jews yet?

107

MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:37:39pm

Is he in some sort of alternate reality or has he score some really good ganja? The willful ignorance is just astounding.

108

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:37:48pm

The only thing which can overthrow the Mullahs (backed by the IRGC/Pasdaran and the para-military Baseej and Ashura Brigades) is military force.

The only other military force inside Iran is the regular Army, the Artesh.

I have read that there's no love between the Artesh and the Pasdaran (which is a well-equipped, parallel, military force.)

IF (IF) we have another Budapest, with the theocracy's tanks literally shooting in the streets, I wonder what the Artesh will do.

/see jcm's comment on the same topic up-thread

109

LatinGent Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:38:10pm

re: #97 IslandLibertarian

Man UP President Obama.
Don't go wobley on Iran now.

Or North Korea, or Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Pakistan.....but drop that hammer on Israel!

110

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:38:40pm

Remember, our POTUS said he wouldn't lower capital gains taxes EVEN if it improved revenues.
He's in his own slot.
He's the "0" he's been waiting for.

God help Iran!

111

brucee Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:38:44pm

re: #22 Sharmuta

That won't happen.

And there's need for more that a simple statement. How about European ambassadors leaving and cutting ties. Let's deal with everything at once. No ties until free, internationally monitored elections, Nuclear suspension and cutting off Guard's foreign arms and legs.

For good measure Obama can move a few troops closer to borders, on east and west. Much stronger than any statement. Regime won't risk fighting people and troops at the same time. They very well know which side angry people are on now too.

While some of this might seem harsh at first, just consider that now we have a completely illegitimate government with a Nuclear program, not a semi-legitimate one. Illegitimate government means world support for action.

If there ever was a time, this is it.

112

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:38:47pm

re: #102 Charles

We can hope for it, but I'm very doubtful this is going to turn into any kind of revolution or regime change.

Don't think so either.

113

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:39:03pm

BOs fantasy about Iran and the entire ME will get people killed...it is the way of the liberal mind...we should have declared war on Iran decades ago...what's the body count up to now for allowing this regime to exist?

114

zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:39:22pm

re: #95 zombie

Frankly, I'm hoping for a counter-revolution to start right now. But it probably won't happen, unfortunately.

re: #102 Charles

We can hope for it, but I'm very doubtful this is going to turn into any kind of revolution or regime change.

That's pretty much what I'm saying -- I wish it would happen, but also concede that it is highly unlikely.

But there's always that hope!

115

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:39:23pm

re: #89 Nevergiveup

Well if your Sec of State or President of the United States you better know who exactly your supporting and what the possible consequences might be. That's all I am saying.

Good point.

116

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:39:45pm

re: #111 brucee

And there's need for more that a simple statement. How about European ambassadors leaving and cutting ties. Let's deal with everything at once. No ties until free, internationally monitored elections, Nuclear suspension and cutting off Guard's foreign arms and legs.

For good measure Obama can move a few troops closer to borders, on east and west. Much stronger than any statement. Regime won't risk fighting people and troops at the same time. They very well know which side angry people are on now too.

While some of this might seem harsh at first, just consider that now we have a completely illegitimate government with a Nuclear program, not a semi-legitimate one. Illegitimate government means world support for action.

If there ever was a time, this is it.

Who do you think is in the White House President Bush?

117

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:39:48pm

re: #107 MacDuff

Obama "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Is he in some sort of alternate reality or has he score some really good ganja? The willful ignorance is just astounding.

and fatal

118

avanti Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:39:51pm

OT I've often complained about the unnecessary comments on the First Ladies appearance, but this Republican blogger just went over the top. BTW, just in time for the MSM to take the heat of Letterman I'll bet.

Gorilla.

119

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:40:12pm

Mousavi Presumably Arrested, Iranian Police Battleing Demonstrators. As Many As 100 People Dead

First reports of deaths coming in. Need more confirmation.

120

zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:40:21pm

re: #107 MacDuff

Obama "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Is he in some sort of alternate reality or has he score some really good ganja? The willful ignorance is just astounding.

Yeah, I'm "excited" by the "debate" too.

That has to be among the worst politician-double-speak I've heard in a while.

121

bbcrackmonkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:40:36pm

The level of incompetence with which this election was stolen rivals that of Mugabe and Zanu-PF.

And of course Hamas, Hezbollah, and Hugo Chavez have all sent congratulations to Ahmadinejad.

The reason the Mullahs even allowed Mousavi to run was because they assumed he was going to lose. When it became clear that Ahmadinejad was going to lose, Khameini and the IRG could not accept that result so they decided to rig the election and prepared their thugs for the inevitable riots.

122

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:40:49pm

re: #108 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The only thing which can overthrow the Mullahs (backed by the IRGC/Pasdaran and the para-military Baseej and Ashura Brigades) is military force.

The only other military force inside Iran is the regular Army, the Artesh.

I have read that there's no love between the Artesh and the Pasdaran (which is a well-equipped, parallel, military force.)

IF (IF) we have another Budapest, with the theocracy's tanks literally shooting in the streets, I wonder what the Artesh will do.

/see jcm's comment on the same topic up-thread

Regular Army would love to get back in power. They'd throw in against the RG and Mullahs for that reason if nothing more.

123

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:40:52pm

re: #91 Sharmuta

good link.....
Alerts from Tehran

Re Mousavi arrest: have not been able to confirm Mousavi arrest today. had a conflicting report today. tb
Journo: Panic on the streets of Tehran. Outside mass protests. Between 50-100 dead. Police on motorcycles beating people as drive by; attacking women.

124

Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:40:59pm

re: #95 zombie

But the modernistic people never went away, and half the country still wants things to be the way they used to be -- part of the modern world, freedom of action and thought, accepted members of the international community again.

Pass the koolaid.

125

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:41:52pm

re: #122 jcm

Regular Army would love to get back in power. They'd throw in against the RG and Mullahs for that reason if nothing more.

any revolt turns on the RG...they are the key, obviously

126

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:42:17pm

Cartoon of the day: Image: percent.jpg

127

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:42:32pm

re: #118 avanti

OT I've often complained about the unnecessary comments on the First Ladies appearance, but this Republican blogger just went over the top. BTW, just in time for the MSM to take the heat of Letterman I'll bet.

Gorilla.

This has nothing to do with Letterman. Letterman is a national celebrity with a national stage, whoever this other asshole is, is an unknown asshole.

128

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:42:52pm

re: #89 Nevergiveup

Well if your Sec of State or President of the United States you better know who exactly your supporting and what the possible consequences might be. That's all I am saying.

Good point and I'd just like to add to that that I would guess it wouldn't take that much of a stance of Sec of State to topple the Mad Mullahs, is my guess. If that would bring about a descent into anarchy for Iran that would cripple any weapons program indefinetely, fine by me. The job of the US government is to protect US lives, not Iranian lives.

129

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:42:58pm

re: #118 avanti

according to some...........BFD.........get over it...........
and those "some" I refer to were the ones defending Letterman..........

130

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:43:20pm

re: #92 albusteve

the election means little except to piss some people off...open revolt will result in a bloodbath...nothing gained...would you forfeit your life for a lost cause at 25yrs old?

Mid-teenage boys jumped on top of Russian tanks in Budapest and fired pistols through the drivers' viewports. They ran from alleys and threw Molotov coctails onto the tanks.

They knew FAR more about causes than we do.

131

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:43:23pm

re: #121 bbcrackmonkey

The level of incompetence with which this election was stolen rivals that of Mugabe and Zanu-PF.

And of course Hamas, Hezbollah, and Hugo Chavez have all sent congratulations to Ahmadinejad.

The reason the Mullahs even allowed Mousavi to run was because they assumed he was going to lose. When it became clear that Ahmadinejad was going to lose, Khameini and the IRG could not accept that result so they decided to rig the election and prepared their thugs for the inevitable riots.

Just making this all up on the fly are ya?

132

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:43:44pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Concrete Texas Barriers / Hard Stop are not small. They aren’t the sort of thing one has lying about in a city police station on the off chance they might be needed. Similarly, due to its weight, one normally needs Mechanical Handling Equipment to move it. Such tractors, and their drivers, are again hardly the sort of thing one has in a city police station on a regular basis. This was a pre-planned operation.

It was never meant to be a free election.

133

buster Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:44:31pm

re: #5 HoosierHoops

Where the hell is Jimmy Carter?

If Carter were there he would have blessed the results. He always takes the Dictator's (or in this case the Mullah's) side.

134

lobo91 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:44:47pm

re: #81 BryanS

Curious how Moussavi was so threatening to the ayatollahs. Even a modest change under him--and he was approved to run anyway by them--was more than they could tolerate.

My take on it is that Moussavi wasn't a threat to them, because there was never a chance he was going to win. This election was no different from the ones they have in Cuba, or what they had in Saddam's Iraq, except that they wanted the results to be a little more plausible than the 99% Saddam and Fidel got.

Basically, Moussavi was allowed to run as a "reform" candidate, and he was given a respectable number of votes to make it look like a real election.

The problem is that so many people actually voted for him that it made their "results" appear obviously faked.

Now they don't know what to do.

135

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:45:00pm

re: #130 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Mid-teenage boys jumped on top of Russian tanks in Budapest and fired pistols through the drivers' viewports. They ran from alleys and threw Molotov coctails onto the tanks.

They knew FAR more about causes than we do.

and they are all dead....the 1956 uprising was crushed

136

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:45:24pm

re: #102 Charles

We can hope for it, but I'm very doubtful this is going to turn into any kind of revolution or regime change.

I have to admit, ... I'm terribly afraid that you're right.

137

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:45:26pm

re: #119 Gus 802

That's the first report of casualties I've heard. Maybe they've already had their Tiananmen Square. I hope not.

138

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:46:10pm

koskidz have a good roundup....
Updated IV: Breaking: Ayatollas Call for New Elections, Telephone Cut Off Teheran, Mousavi Arrested

139

zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:46:10pm

re: #124 Spare O'Lake

Pass the koolaid.

Meaning....?

What are those people on the streets rioting for, then? More oppression? They even chant in English at times (as in the BBC video), "We want freedom!"

Notice also the rioters are young, often have long hair, and look like westernized kids.

No one's drinking any Kool-Aid. Iran is majority under-25-year-olds, so a significane percentage of people there -- if not over 50% -- do want to embrace the 21st century and western culture.

140

bbcrackmonkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:46:54pm

re: #103 Sharmuta

I saw that graph. It's a damn straight line, which is statistically impossible. The line should be wobbly and favor Mahmoud as the rural districts with smaller populations report in first, then it should go towards Mousavi as the urban districts start finishing their counts, and there should be warbling all over the place to count for ethnic minorities casting their ballots for Mousavi and 3rd party candidates, but instead its a straight line each time showing Mahmoud with 2/3 of the vote.

The majority of Iran's population is very young and they had record turnout, which would have insured a Mousavi presidency.

Any statistician will tell you this election is rigged, stolen, bunk.

141

zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:46:57pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

koskidz have a good roundup....
Updated IV: Breaking: Ayatollas Call for New Elections, Telephone Cut Off Teheran, Mousavi Arrested

I think, in this rare instance, DailyKos and LGF want the same thing! A westernized, free Iran.

142

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:47:12pm

For whatever it's worth, someone on Twitter Tehran has reported that the Rafsanjani supporters are being rounded up.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

143

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:47:22pm

WOW! Not sure how much credibility this has:

At the same time, the reformist newspapers were also informed that they can prepare their Saturday edition to declare Mr. Mousavi the winner, but were not allowed to use the word pirouzi (victory) in their articles, in order not to upset Mr. Ahmadinejad’s supporters. One reformist newspaper prepared its front page with the title, “People took back the flag of their country [from Mr. Ahmadinejad].”

But, just a few hours later, a center that had been set up by Mr. Mousavi in Gheytarieh (in northern Tehran) for monitoring the election and vote counting, was attacked by armed security agents. They ransacked the center, destroyed computers, and attacked the staff. Supporters of Mr. Mousavi intervened and arrested 8 security agents. The police was called to take them to prison, but the police released the attackers.

144

[deleted] Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:47:36pm

145

zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:47:37pm

re: #140 bbcrackmonkey

I saw that graph. It's a damn straight line, which is statistically impossible. The line should be wobbly and favor Mahmoud as the rural districts with smaller populations report in first, then it should go towards Mousavi as the urban districts start finishing their counts, and there should be warbling all over the place to count for ethnic minorities casting their ballots for Mousavi and 3rd party candidates, but instead its a straight line each time showing Mahmoud with 2/3 of the vote.

The majority of Iran's population is very young and they had record turnout, which would have insured a Mousavi presidency.

Any statistician will tell you this election is rigged, stolen, bunk.

Great points.

146

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:47:44pm

re: #137 Lincolntf

That's the first report of casualties I've heard. Maybe they've already had their Tiananmen Square. I hope not.

I hope not either but by the looks of things this might be the case. The comments coming from the administration are despicable in light of recent events and they are in effect turning a blind eye to the reaction by the Iranian police and militias.

147

dayvid Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:48:06pm

Haaretz are now reporting that Mousavi has been arrested.

148

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:48:11pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

It's a little too soon to get excited about this but if there was a popular revolution and the mullahs were disposed that would solve a lot of problems for everybody.

It would, but we've got the wrong President for that.

149

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:48:40pm

re: #140 bbcrackmonkey

I saw that graph. It's a damn straight line, which is statistically impossible. The line should be wobbly and favor Mahmoud as the rural districts with smaller populations report in first, then it should go towards Mousavi as the urban districts start finishing their counts, and there should be warbling all over the place to count for ethnic minorities casting their ballots for Mousavi and 3rd party candidates, but instead its a straight line each time showing Mahmoud with 2/3 of the vote.

The majority of Iran's population is very young and they had record turnout, which would have insured a Mousavi presidency.

Any statistician will tell you this election is rigged, stolen, bunk.

of course...did anyone expect something different?...I've not followed the thread..the outcome is whatever the Mullahs want it to be..nothing new at all

150

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:48:42pm

re: #135 albusteve

and they are all dead....the 1956 uprising was crushed

Of course.
My comment still stands. I don't retract a word of it.

/There's a statue of Imir Nagy in Budapest today -- learn about it

151

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:48:56pm

re: #140 bbcrackmonkey

I think that graph is pretty good proof this election was a fraud.

152

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:49:03pm

re: #134 lobo91

My take on it is that Moussavi wasn't a threat to them, because there was never a chance he was going to win. This election was no different from the ones they have in Cuba, or what they had in Saddam's Iraq, except that they wanted the results to be a little more plausible than the 99% Saddam and Fidel got.

Basically, Moussavi was allowed to run as a "reform" candidate, and he was given a respectable number of votes to make it look like a real election.

The problem is that so many people actually voted for him that it made their "results" appear obviously faked.

Now they don't know what to do.

These things can become so unpredictable. Sometimes a new leader comes out from nowhere--thinking Yeltsin. This is one of those rare moments when someone sympathetic to change that the government forces are not watching can whip things into a frenzy. Will it happen, god, let's hope.

153

[deleted] Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:49:06pm

154

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:49:36pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

Andrew Sullivan is also on top of it.

155

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:50:11pm

re: #142 Pvt Bin Jammin

For whatever it's worth, someone on Twitter Tehran has reported that the Rafsanjani supporters are being rounded up.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

HOLY SHIT!

/48 hour rule, but crossing fingers

156

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:50:25pm

re: #141 zombie

I think, in this rare instance, DailyKos and LGF want the same thing! A westernized, free Iran.

If Bush was still in office they'd be rooting for the mullahs.

157

avanti Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:50:40pm

re: #127 Nevergiveup

This has nothing to do with Letterman. Letterman is a national celebrity with a national stage, whoever this other asshole is, is an unknown asshole.

Letteman's famous, but is a comedian, not a politician like the GOP guy. Having said that, the MSM could try and make the Republican idiot famous.
My basic point was making fun of the first lady's appearance won't win any points, nor of course will making a joke in poor taste about Palin's daughter.
Sadly, Letterman's comment might be a rating boom for his
show .

158

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:50:49pm

I went off in search of Ahmadinejad voters today in Tehran. They are noteasy to find.

159

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:51:23pm

And in more good news: Jimmy Carter says

"I have been in love with the Palestinian people for many years," he said Saturday, adding that this is a feeling shared by members of his family.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Sigh

160

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:51:47pm

re: #143 Sharmuta
wow.

161

chicagodudewhotrades Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:51:56pm

Who knows the nuts and bolts of the '79 revolution? When the army threw in with the ayatollah was it the upper ranks who first threw in , or the NCO's, or the grunts? I'm just wondering becuase if this does turn into something (slight chance but maybe still a chance) and the regular army throws in with the people it would at first be a few soldiers abandoning their units and taking their personal weapons to help out the people, or whole units ordered by their CO's or whatever. I'm one of those who believe that history repeats, so this is why I'm asking for info on the '79 revolution.

162

Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:52:05pm

re: #139 zombie

Meaning....?

What are those people on the streets rioting for, then? More oppression? They even chant in English at times (as in the BBC video), "We want freedom!"

Notice also the rioters are young, often have long hair, and look like westernized kids.

No one's drinking any Kool-Aid. Iran is majority under-25-year-olds, so a significane percentage of people there -- if not over 50% -- do want to embrace the 21st century and western culture.

What evidence is there that even a significant percentage are pro-Western.
It is sheer fancy, and excuses the complicity and support of the vast majority of Iranians for the nauseating islamofascist policies of their government.
I would love to be convinced, but will not engage in fanciful self-delusion. No offence to you or others who do believe, of course.

163

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:52:26pm

re: #150 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Of course.
My comment still stands. I don't retract a word of it.

/There's a statue of Imir Nagy in Budapest today -- learn about it

huh?....I didn't imply you retract anything...I wrote a paper about this subject in college

164

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:52:30pm

On the sidewalk outside, I approach a group of conservatively dressedwomen in black chadors, expecting that perhaps — unlike the women incolorful scarves — they might be backers of the president. “Mousavi or Ahmadinejad?” I ask, to the group of six or eight women. I am stunned, again. “Mousavi! Mousavi!” they all say, laughing and smiling. One pulls out a hidden green armband.

Basijis attacked Mousavi's campaign in Gheytarie

165

_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:52:39pm

May G-d bless and protect the people in iran fighting for democracy against the medieval savages who have brought the curse of sharia law and islamonazism upon a once great society.

166

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:52:43pm

re: #157 avanti

If you had just criticized the Politician that is fine but by trying to tie to Letterman you went off the rails again.

167

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:52:44pm

re: #159 Nevergiveup

And in more good news: Jimmy Carter says

"I have been in love with the Palestinian people for many years," he said Saturday, adding that this is a feeling shared by members of his family.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Sigh

Is that white hair, ... or a halo?

168

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:53:03pm

Again, a crowd is gathering around me, and soon two dozen people have assembled. “We are waiting for someone to revive and rebuild this country!” says someone. “We want freedom!” says another. “Freedom of speech.” A woman looks at me. “And stop the hijab police!” referring to the notorious dress-code cops who prowl Tehran. Suddenly they are all talking at once. “Ahmadinejad is a liar!”

169

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:53:54pm

re: #163 albusteve

huh?....I didn't imply you retract anything...I wrote a paper about this subject in college

Sorry! I must have misunderstood.

/it's all cool

170

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:54:08pm

re: #141 zombie

I think, in this rare instance, DailyKos and LGF want the same thing! A westernized, free Iran.

The Left in this country supported the return of Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan. They're the same folks who flock to Darfur singalongs and wear those t-shirts. Their record ain't great.

It's nice that they're supporting a westernised, free Iran in theory but, based on their record, I'd like to see what their plan is for doing something about it.

171

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:54:18pm

“I am here for Mousavi, because I don’t like Ahmadinejad. Actually I don’t care about Mousavi, I just want Ahmadinejad out.”

172

bbcrackmonkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:54:31pm

Here's the funny thing, the crux of the matter, if you will.

Iran is an oligarchy run by an alliance of clerical fascists in bed with the IRG military industrial complex. All construction contracts get awarded to shell companies under the IRG or to the IRG itself, and in return the IRG support the clerical rule of the country and the politicians that butter its bread. The political leadership will rattle the sabers to provoke responses from Israel and the US to keep the populace fearful of foreign intervention so that they'll continue to vote against their own self-interest.

But the funny part is that Mousavi was not that much of an improvement. They simply could have let him win, as he rightfully did, and then corrupted him with threats and bribes, but they screwed up. Instead they rigged the election in favor of Dinnerjacket and they proved once again that the electoral process in Iran is a joke.

173

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:54:47pm

re: #148 Zimriel

It would, but we've got the wrong President for that.

Don't think it would've made any difference. Correct me if I'm wrong but Didn't W Bush have at least one opportunity to support unrest in Iran during his administration?

174

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:54:57pm

I heard Michael Ledeen say on the radio (I think it was Prager's or Hewitt's show) that on Iran ballots the voter has to write in the name of the person they are voting for -- they can't just check something off. He says 20% of the population is illiterate. They have people at the voting places helping the illiterate vote. The "helper" can write in any name and the illiterate voter won't know what's going on. Ledeen says Ahmadinejad starts out with a 20% head start. (Couldn't find a link but did confirm that the literacy rate in Iran is 78% to 80%)

175

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:55:03pm

re: #143 Sharmuta

WOW! Not sure how much credibility this has:

[Link: tehranbureau.com...]

Found this.

176

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:55:14pm

“We are not cattle or cows or sheep to follow orders. We live in an ancient country with a proud history.” She says that nearly all women in Iran are sick of the current situation, and lowering her voice, she adds, “If Ahmadinejad wins, I predict there will be another revolution.”

177

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:55:30pm

re: #163 albusteve

#2 to your comment -- I'm not in a relaxed state of mind as I watch what's going on over there.

/reason, not an excuse

178

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:56:16pm

re: #158 Sharmuta

[tehran bureau] I went off in search of Ahmadinejad voters today in Tehran. They are noteasy to find.

That is because he went off in Tehran and did not visit any other parts of the nation.

179

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:56:23pm

Faraz Khaveri, 25, whoworks in a publishing house nearby, says, “This is the neighborhood ofAhmadinejad, but there is massive support for Mousavi here.” Mohammad Reza, 22, a student at Sadr University in T ehran, says, “The situation in Iran is critical. And all Ahmadinejad talks about is Israel!”

180

amir Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:57:46pm

re: #174 HelloDare

I'm guessing the illiterates were in favor of Ahmadenijad anyway.

181

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:58:29pm

re: #178 Zimriel

That is because he went off in Tehran and did not visit any other parts of the nation.

Probably absolutely correct.

182

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:58:30pm

Well getting ready for the Next Yankee-Met game. I wonder who will be at second for the mets?

183

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:58:40pm

perfect time for Israel to whack Iran...if the US would just get on board it could tip the balance...

184

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:58:59pm

re: #161 chicagodudewhotrades

Who knows the nuts and bolts of the '79 revolution? When the army threw in with the ayatollah was it the upper ranks who first threw in , or the NCO's, or the grunts? I'm just wondering becuase if this does turn into something (slight chance but maybe still a chance) and the regular army throws in with the people it would at first be a few soldiers abandoning their units and taking their personal weapons to help out the people, or whole units ordered by their CO's or whatever. I'm one of those who believe that history repeats, so this is why I'm asking for info on the '79 revolution.

The enlisted draftees threw in, the officer (staff and above) corp that didn't skeddadle for the most part got the blindfold and wall.

The Army if it starts to break will go pretty completely and quickly.

185

bbcrackmonkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:59:22pm

Rafsanjani, the president of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has resigned from his position in protest.

186

avanti Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:59:31pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

If Bush was still in office they'd be rooting for the mullahs.

Even Al Jazeera had some concerns

"Breakdown of the vote in individual districts was still patchy, but there were a few results that raised eyebrows.

Incumbent victorious

Ahmadinejad had apparently taken the northwestern city of Tabriz with some ease.

Tabriz is the heart of East Azerbaijan, and Azeris are among the tightest ethnic groups in the country, unfailingly voting along ethnic lines.

In the 2005 presidential election, Mohsen Mehralizadeh was a largely unknown and wholly unsuccessful candidate. He came in seventh and last, and yet he still won the Azeri vote in the Azerbaijani provinces. Mir Hossein Mousavi is an Azeri from Tabriz.

Elsewhere, Mehdi Karroubi failed to take his home state of Lorestan; in Khuzestan, Mohsen Rezai, a local scion, was expecting at least two million votes. His total for the entire country has failed to breach one million.

And with each updated count, Ahmadinjad's lead did not waver from a very stable range of 66-69 per cent, irrespective of which districts were reporting.

After 3am [22:30 GMT], the interior ministry went quiet for the night. Out on the streets, some groups of youths were driving the streets in celebration. But not 69 per cent of them."

Link.

187

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:59:35pm

TEHRAN: Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a former president and head of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has given resignation from his office. [Link: www.geo.tv...] A stunning development IF true.

188

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:00:00pm

re: #180 amir

I'm guessing the illiterates were in favor of Ahmadenijad anyway.

Yes. The poor are part of his power base.

/and, if what I've read on a major newpaper's website is true, a hive of Twelver beliefs

189

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:00:17pm

re: #187 MrPaulRevere

TEHRAN: Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a former president and head of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has given resignation from his office. [Link: www.geo.tv...] A stunning development IF true.

Things seem to be happening.

190

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:00:36pm

The right wing blogs are pretty much silent on this one. It gets a mention from Instapundit but that's about it.

191

Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:01:01pm

re: #183 albusteve

perfect time for Israel to whack Iran...if the US would just get on board it could tip the balance...

From your mouth to ~~God's~~ Obama's ear.

192

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:01:01pm

re: #185 bbcrackmonkey

Rafsanjani, the president of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has resigned from his position in protest.

Woooooo!

This could get interesting!

193

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:01:57pm

re: #162 Spare O'Lake

What evidence is there that even a significant percentage are pro-Western.
It is sheer fancy, and excuses the complicity and support of the vast majority of Iranians for the nauseating islamofascist policies of their government.
I would love to be convinced, but will not engage in fanciful self-delusion. No offence to you or others who do believe, of course.

They are pro-western in a very general sense. They want economic and personal freedoms they don't have, they see that in the west.

They're sick and tired of what they have, they see want they want west, not south. They are Persian, not Islamic in out look and that is very different form the rest of the ME.

194

itellu3times Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:02:28pm

re: #86 jcm

Silence from the west is tacit support of the status quo.

Silence from the Mossad is tacit support of the status quo?

195

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:02:29pm

re: #190 Killgore Trout

The right wing blogs are pretty much silent on this one. It gets a mention from Instapundit but that's about it.

Because hating muslims is more important.

196

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:03:08pm

re: #192 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It certainly seems that the impact has gone well beyond the street corners and into the corridors of power.
God I hope something good comes of all of this.

197

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:03:33pm

re: #183 albusteve

perfect time for Israel to whack Iran...if the US would just get on board it could tip the balance...

I disagree. An Israeli attack now would create a kneejerk patriotic reaction among elements which (otherwise) might support the reformers.

All things being equal, I say ... keep our fingers on the triggers and see what transpires.

198

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:03:43pm

re: #195 Sharmuta

I also think that they haven't figured out how to spin this against Obama yet.

199

MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:03:46pm

re: #176 Sharmuta

“We are not cattle or cows or sheep to follow orders. We live in an ancient country with a proud history.” She says that nearly all women in Iran are sick of the current situation, and lowering her voice, she adds, “If Ahmadinejad wins, I predict there will be another revolution.”

We can only hope. On the other hand, it can be a double-edged sword; reveolution is the way they got here in the first place. A secular revolution would be just the ticket.

200

lobo91 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:03:47pm

re: #184 jcm

The enlisted draftees threw in, the officer (staff and above) corp that didn't skeddadle for the most part got the blindfold and wall.

The Army if it starts to break will go pretty completely and quickly.

As for the NCOs, I'm not an expert on the Iranian military, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine they're much like any of the other middle eastern ones, meaning they don't really have an NCO corps. Some of the draftees decide they like the military after their term is up, so they reenlist and are made sergeants, but their main function is to instill discipline through beatings and the like.

201

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:04:37pm

re: #195 Sharmuta

Because hating muslims is more important.

ouch!...that's probably exactly true...I'm an underdog rooter whatever the color...GO PERSIANS!

202

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:05:08pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

I also think that they haven't figured out how to spin this against Obama yet.

I don't think that is fair to say.

203

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:05:20pm

re: #194 itellu3times

Silence from the Mossad is tacit support of the status quo?

Heh! That would be rich....

If the mullahs get a necktie party, Israel might get to relax just a bit.

204

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:05:34pm

re: #196 Lincolntf

It certainly seems that the impact has gone well beyond the street corners and into the corridors of power.
God I hope something good comes of all of this.

Me too, although I'm not sure what that might be.

I find myself wondering who's keeping an eye on all their fissionable material during all this. And thinking about how much scarier this would be if they already had nuclear missiles constructed and ready to launch.

205

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:05:50pm

re: #197 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I disagree. An Israeli attack now would create a kneejerk patriotic reaction among elements which (otherwise) might support the reformers.

All things being equal, I say ... keep our fingers on the triggers and see what transpires.

OTOH the population may see it as havoc brought upon their country by the Mullahs....toss up

206

MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:05:54pm

re: #183 albusteve

perfect time for Israel to whack Iran...if the US would just get on board it could tip the balance...

O is too busy enjoying "the robust debate".

207

Henchman Ghazi-808 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:06:04pm

Is Code Pink and ANSWER there?

208

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:06:33pm

re: #201 albusteve

ouch!...that's probably exactly true...I'm an underdog rooter whatever the color...GO PERSIANS!

You think spencer or gellar care about the Iranian people? None of the fascist apologists will cover this story because they don't care.

209

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:06:43pm

re: #200 lobo91

As for the NCOs, I'm not an expert on the Iranian military, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine they're much like any of the other middle eastern ones, meaning they don't really have an NCO corps. Some of the draftees decide they like the military after their term is up, so they reenlist and are made sergeants, but their main function is to instill discipline through beatings and the like.

A Professional NCO corp is almost exclusively a western military construct and a distinct advantage.

210

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:07:24pm

re: #206 MacDuff

O is too busy enjoying "the robust debate".

bunker busters are pretty robust

211

Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:07:34pm

re: #193 jcm

They are pro-western in a very general sense. They want economic and personal freedoms they don't have, they see that in the west.

They're sick and tired of what they have, they see want they want west, not south. They are Persian, not Islamic in out look and that is very different form the rest of the ME.

I hear you, but it is an Islamic Republic under shariah law.
Where is the real evidence that the regime lacks popular support? Should we simply take the word of expatriate dissidents and political pundits?
Today we are witnessing something, but who the heck really knows what it is?

212

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:07:34pm

re: #187 MrPaulRevere

TEHRAN: Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a former president and head of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has given resignation from his office. [Link: www.geo.tv...] A stunning development IF true.

If Rafsanjani got out in front of this, he'd be one of those who could foment a change in government.

213

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:07:37pm

re: #204 Last Mohican

Great point. If they had a working nuke this would be even crazier and far more dangerous.

214

aboo-Hoo-Hoo Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:07:47pm

re: #180 amir

I'm guessing the illiterates were in favor of Ahmadenijad anyway.

He is in fact extremely popular in the rural areas and countryside for both providing aid and charitable donations - even out of his own pocket.

215

MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:07:58pm

re: #207 BigPapa

Is Code Pink and ANSWER there?

They probably couldn't get their giant paper mache heads on the plane......

216

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:08:25pm

re: #196 Lincolntf

It certainly seems that the impact has gone well beyond the street corners and into the corridors of power.
God I hope something good comes of all of this.

If Rafsanjani has well and truly "come on board", that might be a tipping factor. He has clout inside the theocracy.

It also indicates that factions might be at work here, and it's good if the mullahs are NOT unified.

217

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:08:27pm

re: #208 Sharmuta

You think spencer or gellar care about the Iranian people? None of the fascist apologists will cover this story because they don't care.

be interesting to see what they say should this thing escalate further....they can't stay silent can they?

218

lobo91 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:08:57pm

re: #209 jcm

A Professional NCO corp is almost exclusively a western military construct and a distinct advantage.

Absolutely.

/USAR Sergeant Major

219

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:09:32pm

re: #211 Spare O'Lake

I hear you, but it is an Islamic Republic under shariah law.
Where is the real evidence that the regime lacks popular support? Should we simply take the word of expatriate dissidents and political pundits?
Today we are witnessing something, but who the heck really knows what it is?

because men want free will...it's genetic

220

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:09:35pm

re: #202 Nevergiveup

I was being partially snarky. However, this could potentially be a very good thing and could make Obama's job a lot easier. Not everybody is going to be happy to see that happen.

221

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:09:42pm

re: #212 BryanS

That story seems to be very thinly sourced, many sites are just repeating one another.

222

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:09:53pm

re: #217 albusteve

be interesting to see what they say should this thing escalate further....they can't stay silent can they?

Of course they can--they're morons :D

223

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:10:02pm

re: #205 albusteve

OTOH the population may see it as havoc brought upon their country by the Mullahs....toss up

That too, but Persian pride is pretty danged strong.

224

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:10:28pm

re: #217 albusteve

be interesting to see what they say should this thing escalate further....they can't stay silent can they?

They might get excited about it if they get a chance to dust off their morbid concern mask.

225

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:10:32pm

re: #95 zombie

Here, I'll help you:

For decades, Iran was pro-Western and comparatively "progressive" by Middle East standards. Then after the Revolution of 1979, the repressive elements of society took over and imposed theocratic law. But the modernistic people never went away, and half the country still wants things to be the way they used to be -- part of the modern world, freedom of action and thought, accepted members of the international community again.
...
Frankly, I'm hoping for a counter-revolution to start right now. But it probably won't happen, unfortunately.

To "help" further, the "progressive" elements of Iran were mostly Communists and third-world Nehru-type national socialists. They opposed the Shah because they wanted a caudillo who would throw his weight around against the US on the world stage. That is why that thug Mossadegh was a martyr to those guys. That is also why they allied with Khomeini and joined in enthusiastically with the revolutionary-terror fun, like taking an embassy hostage.

I mentioned on the earlier, "pathetic" flamewar that I agreed with Spare O'Lake on some of his points. Where he is has a point, IMO, is that the Iranian progressives and Westernisers of the 1970s got what they deserved. (When Communists and Islamists fight, in principle I wish both sides the best of luck.) But, that was that generation.

Iran has now a new adult generation which is not to blame for its parents' missteps. Whatever support we can give them, we must.

226

itellu3times Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:10:49pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

I was being partially snarky. However, this could potentially be a very good thing and could make Obama's job a lot easier. Not everybody is going to be happy to see that happen.

Obama's job, whazzat?

227

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:11:25pm

re: #217 albusteve

I get the feeling that Spencer, despite being an "expert", probably knows nothing about Iran politics and the situation there. He's probably learning just now as we are.

228

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:11:32pm

re: #209 jcm

A Professional NCO corp is almost exclusively a western military construct and a distinct advantage.

That's my im-Prussian too.

/damn! I need a laugh here!

229

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:12:57pm

re: #227 Killgore Trout

He's resumed his obsession with the Balkans.

230

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:13:20pm

re: #226 itellu3times

Obama's job, whazzat?

It's to watch out for anti-Muslim attitudes, he said so?

231

poteen Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:13:30pm

re: #223 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Whatever it's about, it ain't about the Shah.
I hope it's a 'what goes around comes around ' moment for the mullahs.

232

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:13:41pm

re: #227 Killgore Trout

I get the feeling that Spencer, despite being an "expert", probably knows nothing about Iran politics and the situation there. He's probably learning just now as we are.

bob and pam won't bother until there is a dead muslim to use so they can appear to care.

233

chicagodudewhotrades Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:14:36pm

re: #209 jcm

A Professional NCO corp is almost exclusively a western military construct and a distinct advantage.

Which is why our military and other nations with a professional NCO class outperform others without one on the battlefield

234

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:14:36pm

re: #211 Spare O'Lake

I hear you, but it is an Islamic Republic under shariah law.
Where is the real evidence that the regime lacks popular support? Should we simply take the word of expatriate dissidents and political pundits?
Today we are witnessing something, but who the heck really knows what it is?

Let's say I and my family hear from inside Iran, we lived there for 10 years.

Beyond that I'm not saying anything. People I know personally died in Iran for their religion and links to the West.

A number of years ago the RG sent agents to this country to "disrupt" some of those lines of communication fortunately the FBI was on to them and busted them. It made local news but the scope of what was happening never did.

Dissented in Iran is widespread, and ruthlessness suppressed. The pot has been simmering for a long time, the mullahs have been screwing the lid tighter.

Whether this is the lid blowing off or just a little release of pressure remains to be seen.

235

pat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:14:55pm

This degree of open corruption will not bode well for Iran. Its economy is already a basket case. This will only add to the mess.

236

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:15:00pm

Are any of the "live" links from earlier still broadcasting live? I keep getting loops of the same scenes (all in daylight) and it's gotta be past midnight over there. I wish the cable TV channels were able to show live coverage.

237

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:15:23pm

The White House is probably trying to figure out how they can take credit for the riots if the regime in Iran if overthrown. They should relax. The press will do it for them.

238

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:15:25pm

Ahmadinejad speaks to the Iranian people

Yoo open to being sued by Padilla.

239

itellu3times Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:16:31pm

re: #230 Nevergiveup

It's to watch out for anti-Muslim attitudes, he said so?

He is the Chocolate Caliph.

In his own mind.

240

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:17:02pm

re: #235 pat

This degree of open corruption will not bode well for Iran. Its economy is already a basket case. This will only add to the mess.

nationwide strikes?...the Mullahs surely can't agree on everything....drive a wedge

241

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:17:07pm

re: #234 jcm

Interesting! (I won't ask further questions.)

Thanks.

242

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:18:00pm

re: #236 Lincolntf

You can try some stuff here....Iran TV
I haven't found anything that works yet.

243

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:18:08pm

re: #213 Lincolntf

Great point. If they had a working nuke this would be even crazier and far more dangerous.

And now that we're talking about it, Pakistan, a country that does have fully functional nuclear weapons, is on the brink of instability that could get far worse than this, very quickly.

And unlike Iran, whose population is relatively educated, civilized, and moderate, the majority of Pakistanis are backwards, hateful, and firmly in favor of extremist violence. There are not many Pakistani hands in which nukes should be trusted.

244

Henchman Ghazi-808 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:18:18pm

This is getting crazy:

Insane.... using the court system to for vindictive purposes and to play politics.

245

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:18:42pm

re: #235 pat

This degree of open corruption will not bode well for Iran. Its economy is already a basket case. This will only add to the mess.

They have the makings of a robust economy, if the thugs get they're hands out of the till and let people do what comes naturally.

246

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:18:57pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

Ahmadinejad speaks to the Iranian people

When did a Member's Only jacket become the official garb of Ahmadinejad?

247

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:19:09pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

I also think that they haven't figured out how to spin this against Obama yet.

Obama's performance over this mess has been craven, and saying that doesn't require any "spin". His "robust debate" blather harks back to his mealymouthedness last year over the Georgia invasion. If the right wing blogs wanted to attack Obama over this, they could, and they'd be justified in doing it.

I think Sharmuta is closer the mark - the right wing blogs are less publicly fond of Asians now than they claimed to be six or seven years ago.

248

Racer X Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:19:11pm

I am gaining more respect for the people of Iran.

249

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:20:00pm

re: #247 Zimriel

Obama's performance over this mess has been craven, and saying that doesn't require any "spin". His "robust debate" blather harks back to his mealymouthedness last year over the Georgia invasion. If the right wing blogs wanted to attack Obama over this, they could, and they'd be justified in doing it.

I think Sharmuta is closer the mark - the right wing blogs are less publicly fond of Asians now than they claimed to be six or seven years ago.

Asians?

250

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:20:20pm

re: #246 HelloDare

When did a Member's Only jacket become the official garb of Ahmadinejad?

Did The One send him a gift card?

251

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:20:42pm

re: #247 Zimriel

Gee- there were plenty of those blog widgets all over the place a few years ago about supporting democracy in Iran. So where are those folks now?

252

Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:20:46pm

re: #219 albusteve

because men want free will...it's genetic

*blink*
*sigh*

253

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:21:01pm

re: #250 jcm

Did The One send him a gift card?

//

Do they still make Members Own ?

254

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:21:21pm

re: #246 HelloDare

1985....and still standing proud.

255

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:22:10pm

re: #253 Nevergiveup

Do they still make Members Own ?

Heck if I know,

256

voirdire Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:22:49pm

I want to know what Jimma Carter has to say about all this.

257

pat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:23:37pm

Hillary: "The elections were fair before they were unfair".

258

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:23:54pm

I dig America...
and all of our best qualities are expressed right here on this blog

259

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:24:01pm

re: #256 voirdire

I want to know what Jimma Carter has to say about all this.

"Why are the people protesting the results of their own election? I don't understand."

260

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #256 voirdire

I want to know what Jimma Carter has to say about all this.

that he loves the Palastians:

"I have been in love with the Palestinian people for many years," he said
Saturday, adding that this is a feeling shared by members of his family.

"I have two great-grandsons that are rapidly learning about the people here and the anguish and suffering and deprivation of human rights that you have experienced ever since 1948," he sai

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

And he went on to say:Referring to President Barack Obama's call for an Israeli settlement freeze, Carter said that "in the future, I am sure, he will call for the dismantling of the settlements that exist."

Spit

261

Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:24:30pm

re: #234 jcm

Let's say I and my family hear from inside Iran, we lived there for 10 years.

Beyond that I'm not saying anything. People I know personally died in Iran for their religion and links to the West.

A number of years ago the RG sent agents to this country to "disrupt" some of those lines of communication fortunately the FBI was on to them and busted them. It made local news but the scope of what was happening never did.

Dissented in Iran is widespread, and ruthlessness suppressed. The pot has been simmering for a long time, the mullahs have been screwing the lid tighter.

Whether this is the lid blowing off or just a little release of pressure remains to be seen.

Man, I hope it blows the lid off - and the whole damn pot, too.
Noone would be happier, and more pleasantly surprised, than I.

262

Bloodnok Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:24:40pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

Is that a bidet next to him?

263

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:24:40pm

If Mr. Ahmadinejad is overthrown, I don't think Mrs. Ahmadinejad will have any problem traveling incognito.

264

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:25:34pm

Daniel Pipes' take on the Iranian election (written just before it started):

[The title of the country's most powerful politician] belongs [not to the president but] to the Spiritual Leader or rahbar, Ayatollah Khomeini until 1989 and since then Ali Hoseyni Khamene'i. The rahbar controls key institutions (foreign policy, the military, law enforcement, the justice system) of the Islamic Republic of Iran. In contrast, the president primarily concerns himself with the softer domains such as economics and education....
That means that whoever is elected president, whether Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or his main opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, will have limited impact on the issue that most concerns the outside world – Iran's drive to build nuclear weapons, which Khamene'i will presumably continue apace, as he has in prior decades.

Therefore, while my heart goes out to the many Iranians who desperately want the vile Ahmadinejad out of power, my head tells me it's best that he remain in office. When Mohammed Khatami was president, his sweet words lulled many people into complacency, even as the nuclear weapons program developed on his watch. If the patterns remain unchanged, better to have a bellicose, apocalyptic, in-your-face Ahmadinejad who scares the world than a sweet-talking Mousavi who again lulls it to sleep, even as thousands of centrifuges whir away.

And so, despite myself, I am rooting for Ahmadinejad.

265

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:26:13pm

Based on everything I heard about Iran, if either one had won with something in the range of 50.1-55ish percent, it was probably legitimate. Ahmadinejad was quite unpopular but had many kool-aid drinking supporters.

A 60+ percent blow-out is really setting off my bullshit alarm.

266

Rancher Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:26:27pm

I think Ahmadinejad over reached here. The Mullahs allowed Mousavi to run, that's where their power comes from, picking the candidates. There has always been fraud but Ahmadinejad fixing the election to show a landslide victory was stupid. I think he was afraid of a run-off because of the momentum Mousavi would have gotten and because without Karrubi to split the "reformist" vote Ahmadinejad would have been toast. The Iranians can't have any confidence left that their votes mean anything, civil unrest unlike anything seen in decades, a looming threat of attack by Israel, and low oil prices, are all converging on Iran. What ever happens I'm enjoying it.

267

Racer X Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:26:30pm

re: #256 voirdire

I want to know what Jimma Carter has to say about all this.

"I'm in love with Hamas
got a feel for the killers in Isreel"

*sung to Queen's "I'm in love with my car"

268

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:26:46pm

re: #263 HelloDare

If Mr. Ahmadinejad is overthrown, I don't think Mrs. Ahmadinejad will have any problem traveling incognito.

Damn, she's hot.

Powerful politicians always score the babes.

269

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:27:00pm

re: #256 voirdire

I want to know what Jimma Carter has to say about all this.

Here:

And more Ahmadinejad spells less change, said former President Jimmy Carter.
"I don't think it will have any real effect because the same person will be there as has been there," Carter said after meeting with Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad in the West Bank city of Ramallah. "I think this election has bought out a lot of opposition to his policies in Iran, and I'm sure he'll listen to those opinions and hopefully moderate his position."

He's delusional.

270

_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:27:00pm

I agree with Charles that this doesn't necessarily mean a full scale revolution will take place in iran. And I am not a really religious person. But I do believe in G-d and I believe he/she/it is a good force, not an evil force. So my belief allows me to feel that miracles are possible. And I would say that ridding the world of this regime, when it seems so close to wreaking havoc and death on Israel would qualify as a miracle from G-d. As Al Michaels asked back in 1980 during a famous hockey game: "Do you believe in miracles? Yes."

271

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:27:09pm

re: #253 Nevergiveup

Do they still make Members Own ?

Yup.

272

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:27:19pm

re: #261 Spare O'Lake

Man, I hope it blows the lid off - and the whole damn pot, too.
Noone would be happier, and more pleasantly surprised, than I.

If it doesn't it just builds and the longer it boils the uglier and nastier it will be.

And in a few years you'll have the nuclear card in play.

I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worst.

273

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:27:51pm

re: #265 ArchangelMichael

Based on everything I heard about Iran, if either one had won with something in the range of 50.1-55ish percent, it was probably legitimate. Ahmadinejad was quite unpopular but had many kool-aid drinking supporters.

A 60+ percent blow-out is really setting off my bullshit alarm.

Mullahs vote early and often.

274

Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:28:41pm

re: #263 HelloDare

If Mr. Ahmadinejad is overthrown, I don't think Mrs. Ahmadinejad will have any problem traveling incognito.

Are you sure she's not just ashamed to be seen with him?

275

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:29:07pm

From TeheranBureau
Reaction to Rafsanjani Letter

Verrrrrry interesting.

276

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:29:20pm

re: #273 jcm

Mullahs vote early and often.

I thought that were a tad bit smarter than to make it look so cartoonishly obvious though.

277

voirdire Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:29:40pm

Take at DEBKAfile: The administration's Iranian experts missed the point that in Middle East politics (except for Israel) it is not the people who determine an election, the shape of government and its policies but the unelected head of the tribe - in this case supreme ruler Khamenei.

278

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:30:42pm

re: #276 ArchangelMichael

I thought that were a tad bit smarter than to make it look so cartoonishly obvious though.

I'm thinking the support for Mousavi took them by surprise. They were forced into desperate measures.

279

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:30:44pm

Rare photo of Mrs. Ahmadinejad without the burka.

280

MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:31:15pm

re: #274 EmmmieG

Are you sure she's not just ashamed to be seen with him?

How do you know it's a "she"?

281

Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:31:48pm

re: #280 MacDuff

How do you know it's a "she"?

Are you suggesting that's a really tall goat?

282

_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:31:57pm

re: #274 EmmmieG

Are you sure she's not just ashamed to be seen with him?

no, but here is a photo of their new baby ... isn't he cute?

Image: 462839240_329d49d06b.jpg

283

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:32:35pm

re: #279 HelloDare

Rare photo of Mrs. Ahmadinejad without the burka.

I could've sworn it'd be a camel or a goat.
I'VE BEEN RIPPED OFF!

/:D

284

Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:32:46pm

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In what a U.S. military official calls an "inadvertent encounter," a Chinese submarine hit an underwater sonar array being towed by the destroyer USS John McCain on Thursday.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

I always thought it was the "Obama" that torpedoed the McCain?

285

Dekar Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:33:46pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

what a crock

286

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:34:48pm

Anyone else having trouble with the "Alerts from Tehran" page on the TehranBureau web site?

I'm trying to refresh it, and the browser hits a brick wall.

287

MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:35:06pm

re: #281 EmmmieG

Are you suggesting that's a really tall goat?

But of course; a goat that walks upright. The culmination of Islamic genetic science (necessity is, after all, the mother of invention).

288

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:35:09pm

re: #283 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I could've sworn it'd be a camel or a goat.
I'VE BEEN RIPPED OFF!

/:D

You're thinking of his girlfriend.

289

barry the baptist Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:35:30pm

I think that since the Iranian election is in disarray...that Ama-jihad and his supporters should follow the example set by NY Dem's this week and lock themselves in the presidential chambers... At least until Jimma Carta can certify the election...

290

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:36:19pm

And guess who has been "too busy in the recording studio" to make any public appearances for the past few months...

Coincidence?

291

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:36:56pm

re: #288 HelloDare

GAH!

Please give a warning when you post things like that.
("NSFW", or something or other)

292

Rancher Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:36:57pm

In another major development, four important ayatollahs issued fatwas against taking any part in any cheating or vote fraud in the election.

I really don't think the Mullahs are happy with Ahmadinejad.

293

Henchman Ghazi-808 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:37:07pm

re: #288 HelloDare

You should take it down before Charles deletes it. Always tag stuff like that NSFW to prepare the family types.

294

BlueCanuck Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:37:13pm

re: #288 HelloDare

Geez, a little warning next time. Some of us are at work. :p

295

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:37:48pm

re: #275 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Read that one as well. Looks like Rafsanjani saw this coming...

Also, I've seen a number of references to a story here:
[Link: www.peykeiran.com...]
claiming the story says that Iran's election commission is calling for invalidation of the election results and a do-over.

Since I don't read Farsi, I can't evaluate how on the level it is...anyone here know?

296

_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:37:53pm

re: #288 HelloDare

You're thinking of his girlfriend.

that is really nauseating ...

297

MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:38:12pm

re: #269 Sharmuta

He's delusional.

He's on the other side.

298

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:38:18pm

re: #294 BlueCanuck

Geez, a little warning next time. Some of us are at work. :p

And some of us are at home, but still would prefer not to look at certain things.

299

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:38:33pm

re: #288 HelloDare

You're thinking of his girlfriend.

that's wrong

300

_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:38:46pm

re: #290 Last Mohican

And guess who has been "too busy in the recording studio" to make any public appearances for the past few months...

Coincidence?

that ain't right ....

301

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:38:52pm

re: #264 Last Mohican

Daniel Pipes' take on the Iranian election (written just before it started):

A yes. The Daniel Pipes Fatwah. He ends his comments with this absurd generalization:

I realize that this pragmatic view shocks the tender sensibilities of left-wingers such as Daily Kos, Huffington Post, and Rachel Maddow, but this is hardly the first time leftists think with their hearts, nor the first time that their unthinking sentimentality might lead to disaster. (June 12, 2009)

I doubt anyone is shocked since this is Mr. Pipes personal opinion and he is entitled to it. The centrifuges will more than likely continue to whir away regardless of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Mir Hossein Mousavi. The benefit to a Mousavi win would have been an indication that at least Iran respects a level of democracy. The complexity of this election is far greater than Daniel Pipes microcosmic anaylysis revolving around nuclear proliferation.

302

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:39:11pm

re: #300 _RememberTonyC

that ain't right ....

But it's uncanny, no?

303

[deleted] Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:39:53pm

304

debutaunt Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:40:17pm

re: #270 _RememberTonyC

I agree with Charles that this doesn't necessarily mean a full scale revolution will take place in iran. And I am not a really religious person. But I do believe in G-d and I believe he/she/it is a good force, not an evil force. So my belief allows me to feel that miracles are possible. And I would say that ridding the world of this regime, when it seems so close to wreaking havoc and death on Israel would qualify as a miracle from G-d. As Al Michaels asked back in 1980 during a famous hockey game: "Do you believe in miracles? Yes."

Al-Michaels! I never made the connection!

305

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:40:59pm

Theyve shut all of the mobile networks down in Tehran.

306

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:41:12pm

re: #286 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It loaded and refreshed fine for me.

307

[deleted] Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:41:21pm

308

_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:41:27pm

re: #302 Last Mohican

But it's uncanny, no?

i always thought Ringo looked more like arafat, but there is a bit of a resemblance ... but as a huge beatles fan, I did wince when I saw our beloved Ringo next to "hitler-lite."

309

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:41:37pm

The thread from the NYT I linked in #44 has some interesting comments they put up from another site. This one stood out at me:

Reza
Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:13:19 GMT
Are you people high or just uneducated, brainwashed people? A.) The ballots are done by hand in Iran, not electronic and somehow they have counted the majority of the votes this fast?! B.) Iran is not a real democratic country, the president has no real power. This is a joke and so are the majority of the delusional people that are commenting.

That's something I've been wondering about myself. How can millions of votes be counted so quickly by hand? The counting should have taken days.

310

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:41:55pm

re: #303 HelloDare

wrong again...there is no reason to post that stuff except for your own selfish reasons....fuck off

311

AuntAcid Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:42:43pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

The section of the video where the youts are chanting "We want freedom!" gave me chills.

I hope a Chinese styled crackdown doesn't happen.

... only 12 people were killed in T-Square.

312

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:43:20pm

re: #301 Gus 802

I doubt anyone is shocked since this is Mr. Pipes personal opinion and he is entitled to it. The centrifuges will more than likely continue to whir away regardless of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Mir Hossein Mousavi. The benefit to a Mousavi win would have been an indication that at least Iran respects a level of democracy. The complexity of this election is far greater than Daniel Pipes microcosmic anaylysis revolving around nuclear proliferation.

The benefit to a Mousavi win would have been an indication that Iranians think that their institutions are just. If the US had a court system which demanded that our choices on the ballot box were Rick Warren, John Hagee and Glenn Beck, the correct action for the electorate would not be "vote for Rick Warren". The correct action in such a case is "boycott the election until the voters get a better Constitution".

313

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:43:25pm

re: #309 Sharmuta

The thread from the NYT I linked in #44 has some interesting comments they put up from another site. This one stood out at me:

That's something I've been wondering about myself. How can millions of votes be counted so quickly by hand? The counting should have taken days.

Total first.....
Count later.

314

Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:43:51pm

re: #305 justdanny

Theyve shut all of the mobile networks down in Tehran.

The thing about being a mom (other than the mom jeans) is that you see human nature in all its glory before the masks and the justifications and the sophisticated fronts go up.

"Don't come look at what I'm doing" means "I'm about to do something really, really wrong."*

Trust me.

*Except two days before Mother's Day or your birthday.

315

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:44:09pm

It ain't my blog, but here's what I think: when you're gonna link to hard-core pornography, it's not enough to say "NSFW." You should say "warning: linking to hard-core pornography."

316

_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:44:14pm

re: #304 debutaunt

Al-Michaels! I never made the connection!

The real Al Michaels is very conservative politically. He makes no secret of his Republicanism

317

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:44:31pm

re: #312 Zimriel

The benefit to a Mousavi win would have been an indication that Iranians think that their institutions are just. If the US had a court system which demanded that our choices on the ballot box were Rick Warren, John Hagee and Glenn Beck, the correct action for the electorate would not be "vote for Rick Warren". The correct action in such a case is "boycott the election until the voters get a better Constitution".

A Mousavi win would have bought time for the mullahs while the west analyzed the "new" politics of Iran.

318

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:44:48pm

re: #242 Killgore Trout

No luck at IranTV. Thanks for the link.
I'm particularly eager to see footage from "tomorrow" morning. I suppose sunrise over there will be at about 10PM (EST) tonight. I hope something's up and running by then.
The "next day" after these sort of things can go either way. Did people go home and wake up thinking "Oh well, we're still screwed, time to go to work" or do they continue their protests and expand/coordinate their efforts? Will we see military vehicles/personnel involved or will it still be the police?
I'll have to be sure to be online whenever dawn breaks in Tehran.

319

Miss Molly Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:45:08pm

Ahmadinejad is already blaming "foreign interest" for the riots or unrest going on. He may have to spend some time tamping down "unrest" before he can start on the rest of the world. Either way Iran plans to go ahead with their nuclear program and apparently no one is gong to stop them.

320

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:45:48pm

I think that Pipes is right and that the Iranian people screwed up by taking part in this election. Luckily for democracy, the thugs screwed up even more - by stealing the election so blatantly. If the thugs had any brain, they'd have let the election proceed, and allowed the bogus reformer to get the Presidency.

321

MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:46:08pm

re: #301 Gus 802

With all due respect to Mr. Pipes, whether or not Mr. Mousavi would be an improvement we don't know. I would like to take it for a test drive though.

322

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:46:56pm

Another from TehranBureau.
Open Letter: Fatwa Issued for Changing the Vote in Favor of Ahmadinejad

The last two paragraphs are DAMNED interesting.

Yazdi is known as the "crocodile", and (unless I'm mis-reading a couple of sentences in the post) appears to be the cleric who issued the fatwa.

323

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:47:19pm

re: #321 MrPaulRevere

With all due respect to Mr. Pipes, whether or not Mr. Mousavi would be an improvement we don't know. I would like to take it for a test drive though.

Same here.

324

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:47:39pm

re: #309 Sharmuta

The timing is also part of that cartoonishly obvious bullshit I mentioned earlier.

325

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:48:20pm

im watching private videos. this is epic people

326

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:49:20pm

re: #306 MrPaulRevere

It loaded and refreshed fine for me.

Thanks. I'll keep trying.

327

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:49:21pm

re: #301 Gus 802

I won't make any general comments about Pipes here, except to say that I've often found his analysis to be very insightful and constructive. However, Pipes isn't making much sense when he suggests that the outcome of the Iranian election should somehow be blamed on the "unthinking sentimentality" of the American Left.

328

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:49:23pm

Sorry if I offended people.

329

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:49:47pm

re: #320 Zimriel

I think that Pipes is right and that the Iranian people screwed up by taking part in this election. Luckily for democracy, the thugs screwed up even more - by stealing the election so blatantly. If the thugs had any brain, they'd have let the election proceed, and allowed the bogus reformer to get the Presidency.

I agree. This might not lead to anything in the short term, but I think the Iranians will remember this. I think they're pretty pissed and this election will only cement their opposition to the theocracy.

330

HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:50:46pm

re: #328 HelloDare

~~~~Sorry if I offended people~~.~~

Sorry for offending people.

331

slokat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:51:13pm

re: #309 Sharmuta

The thread from the NYT I linked in #44 has some interesting comments they put up from another site. This one stood out at me:

That's something I've been wondering about myself. How can millions of votes be counted so quickly by hand? The counting should have taken days.

4300 counters at 12 ballots a minute for 12 hours = approx. 37million votes

332

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:51:51pm

re: #331 slokat

4300 counters at 12 ballots a minute for 12 hours = approx. 37million votes

Now that's how we fact check.

333

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:51:56pm

re: #301 Gus 802

I doubt anyone is shocked since this is Mr. Pipes personal opinion and he is entitled to it. The centrifuges will more than likely continue to whir away regardless of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Mir Hossein Mousavi. The benefit to a Mousavi win would have been an indication that at least Iran respects a level of democracy. The complexity of this election is far greater than Daniel Pipes microcosmic anaylysis revolving around nuclear proliferation.

How accurate is Pipe's description of Iran's "division of power"? And what else other than their nuclear weapons program makes their politics interesting?

334

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:52:21pm

re: #327 Last Mohican

I won't make any general comments about Pipes here, except to say that I've often found his analysis to be very insightful and constructive. However, Pipes isn't making much sense when he suggests that the outcome of the Iranian election should somehow be blamed on the "unthinking sentimentality" of the American Left.

I've listened to Daniel Pipes before but never really followed his blog. The final comment to that blog is a partisan insult and the conclusion more or less is rather simplistic: if you are an American leftist then you support Moussavi; if you are an American rightist then you support Ahmadinejad. Per his dictum or so it seems.

335

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:52:47pm

Now would be a really good time to impose harsh sanctions on Iran for their nuclear mischief, like cut off their gasoline imports.

/why are the obvious solutions always so unattainable?

336

AuntAcid Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:56:33pm

re: #328 HelloDare

Sorry if I offended people.

offended hell...I'm damaged...forever...agghh...I'll never be the same...send me money..or pizza..or something....you owe me you sob...otherwise all kinds of shit will happen...this your last warning...now remind me again what it is you said...maybe I'll forgive you.

337

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:57:53pm

re: #328 HelloDare

I just got here. Won't ask. You are forgiven.

338

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:58:01pm

There's a window of opportunity here for possible regime change that might last days or hours.

/and we'll do nothing while we watch it pass

339

Dekar Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:58:41pm

re: #338 Killian Bundy

What can we do? :(

340

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:59:17pm

re: #338 Killian Bundy

There's a window of opportunity here for possible regime change that might last days or hours.

/and we'll do nothing while we watch it pass

Our presidential election had consequences. This is one of them.

341

right_on_target Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:59:51pm

re: #174 HelloDare

I heard Michael Ledeen say on the radio (I think it was Prager's or Hewitt's show) that on Iran ballots the voter has to write in the name of the person they are voting for -- they can't just check something off. He says 20% of the population is illiterate. They have people at the voting places helping the illiterate vote. The "helper" can write in any name and the illiterate voter won't know what's going on. Ledeen says Ahmadinejad starts out with a 20% head start. (Couldn't find a link but did confirm that the literacy rate in Iran is 78% to 80%)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Is ACORN over there?

342

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:00:28pm

re: #330 HelloDare

Sorry for offending people.

give me your pie

343

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:00:33pm

re: #333 guftafs

How accurate is Pipe's description of Iran's "division of power"? And what else other than their nuclear weapons program makes their politics interesting?

You could add to this their oil reserves; their ownership of half the Persian Gulf shoreline all the way to the Hurmuz straits leading out of it; their borders with Pakistan and Afghanistan. But maybe this counts as "realpolitik" too which you've just disregarded.

And then there's the history of Persia, the various archaeological ruins I'd like to visit someday, its natural beauty, the literature and culture (when it's not being stamped out). But maybe you just don't care.

But even if we forget all that, and restrict ourselves to the Islamic Republic as a political-science test case alone: Iran offers a model of what happens when you set up (1) a division of powers which gives too much control to the court system and (2) a state religion.

So a lot about Iran is interesting, and should be interesting even to students of nothing but politics.

344

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:00:33pm

re: #339 Dekar

What can we do? :(

/if the CIA doesn't already have their hip waders on it's probably too late to do anything

345

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:01:10pm

re: #333 guftafs

How accurate is Pipe's description of Iran's "division of power"? And what else other than their nuclear weapons program makes their politics interesting?

I can't answer the division of power. The issues regarding Iran would include weapons to Iran and Afghanistan; threats to Israel; oil; relationship with Russia; internal civil rights; etc.

At this point it's useless to argue the outcome since Ahmadinejad will no doubt retain power. The outcome will be grim for those taking part in the riots and protests and will lead to a violent crackdown by the Iranian government.

346

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:01:13pm

re: #342 albusteve

That is a good tag.

347

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:01:24pm

re: #337 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just got here. Won't ask. You are forgiven.

Forgiven...
But *WHACK* first.

348

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:01:30pm

re: #338 Killian Bundy

There's a window of opportunity here for possible regime change that might last days or hours.

/and we'll do nothing while we watch it pass

I agree totally...Israel should strike, now

349

AuntAcid Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:01:51pm

re: #339 Dekar

What can we do? :(

All together now...

o make a stand for your man, honey
Try to can the can
Put your man in the can, honey
Get him while you can
Can the can
Can the can
If you can
Well can the can

350

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:01:53pm

judging by what im seeing. if this level keeps up, this could be the beginning of some very dark days. people are dying

351

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:02:20pm

Latest twitter rumor is that most of the security forces on the street in Tehran are actually Hezbollah forces.

352

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:02:30pm

Violence has broken out in Iran following the landslide re-election

There you have it--elections cause violence.

353

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:02:41pm

I take back the part about 343 which suggested that the original poster might not care. That was a dick move on my part and I am sorry.

354

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:03:38pm

ANOTHER one from TehranBureau:

The closing sentence reads: "And if Ahmadinejad steals this election—well, do you have to ask?"

Another coup for the Hardliners

Something tells me that the writer of the article has thought it through.

355

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:04:05pm

re: #338 Killian Bundy

There's a window of opportunity here for possible regime change that might last days or hours.

/and we'll do nothing while we watch it pass

DING!re: #339 Dekar

What can we do? :(

Do is up to the Iranians.

What the west can do is declare support for freedom in Iran, let the regime and the people know they have friends.

356

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:04:51pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

The section of the video where the youts are chanting "We want freedom!" gave me chills.

Me too!

357

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:05:08pm

re: #348 albusteve

I agree totally...Israel should strike, now

I think that would be an extraordinarily bad idea ala "crossing the streams"

You want to create instant rock-solid across-the-board support for Ahmadinejad.... have "The Joos" start bombing them when he wins an election. This isn't exactly the type of pressure that would work towards pushing the average Joe into revolution.

358

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:05:14pm

re: #348 albusteve

I agree totally...Israel should strike, now

That would be a great way to consolidate A-Jahd's power.

359

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:05:44pm

360

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:05:47pm

re: #356 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Your people don't like you.

361

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:06:47pm

i cant post any of the private videos im seeing

362

slokat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:07:08pm

re: #351 Pvt Bin Jammin

Latest twitter rumor is that most of the security forces on the street in Tehran are actually Hezbollah forces.

this is an old article from Forbes, but it supports that rumor.

As it moves to repress growing opposition to clerical rule, the regime relies not on soldiers or uniformed police (many of whom sympathize with the protesters) but on the bullies of Hezbollah and the equally thuggish Revolutionary Guards. The powers that be claim to derive legitimacy from Allah but remain on top with gangsterlike methods of intimidation, violence and murder.

363

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:07:10pm

364

nyc redneck Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:07:17pm

has o issued a statement strongly condemning the oppressive islamic regime and in full support of the iranian citizens' desire to live in freedom?
a decent american president would.

365

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:07:21pm

re: #357 ArchangelMichael

I think that would be an extraordinarily bad idea ala "crossing the streams"

You want to create instant rock-solid across-the-board support for Ahmadinejad.... have "The Joos" start bombing them when he wins an election. This isn't exactly the type of pressure that would work towards pushing the average Joe into revolution.

it's knee jerk...a fantasy..but it would be nice if Israel and the US made a concerted effort to resolve the nuke situation while reaching out to moderate Iranians...they must know the nuke thing will finish badly for them

366

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:07:27pm

re: #358 BryanS

That would be a great way to consolidate A-Jahd's power.

If the it looks like nothing is going to come of the riots, the time to strike is when the military is distracted with internal matters.

strictly pragmatic viewpoint

367

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:07:58pm

re: #359 justdanny

[Video]

Los Desaparecidos

368

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:08:12pm

re: #358 BryanS

That would be a great way to consolidate A-Jahd's power.

maybe not...who knows how many Iranians have a beef with Israel

369

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:08:15pm

re: #356 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Me too!

Where are you right now......

*dials up Centcom on the other line*

370

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:08:25pm

One right-wing blogger who is reporting on Iran: Kathryn Jean Lopez on National Review's Corner.

371

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:09:08pm

re: #364 nyc redneck

That would be way too "clenchy" for the O.

372

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:09:21pm

re: #366 jcm

If the it looks like nothing is going to come of the riots, the time to strike is when the military is distracted with internal matters.

strictly pragmatic viewpoint

something like that, yes

373

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:09:23pm

Following up on Killgore's comment that these election riots are not getting much coverage on righty blogs, I thought I'd check up on jihad watch. Unsurprisingly, there is a piece by "hugh fitzgerald" calling for western muslim immigration to be "reversed".

374

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:09:24pm

re: #85 bbcrackmonkey

This election is obviously fraudulent.

All the exit-polling and the pre-election polling showed Mousavi winning the election.

You know how the left is--they control the media, the schools, and the internet. Truly, you should not believe what you see about politics from your television. It's not very reliable.

375

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:09:27pm

376

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:09:27pm

re: #334 Gus 802

I've listened to Daniel Pipes before but never really followed his blog. The final comment to that blog is a partisan insult and the conclusion more or less is rather simplistic: if you are an American leftist then you support Moussavi; if you are an American rightist then you support Ahmadinejad. Per his dictum or so it seems.

I didn't read it that way -- I can't imagine American right-winger having any fondness for Ahmedinejad. But it did strike me as a weird, uncharacteristic non sequitur for him to conclude a discussion of the Iranian election with a swipe at the left. He usually stays on topic.

377

avanti Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:09:50pm

re: #338 Killian Bundy

There's a window of opportunity here for possible regime change that might last days or hours.

/and we'll do nothing while we watch it pass

When did conservatives grow so enamored of nation building ? Once they were wary of foreign adventures. All we would do by interfering is rally the opposition behind the present government and against the great Satan. If revolution comes, it'll come from within.

378

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:10:17pm

re: #361 justdanny

i cant post any of the private videos im seeing

Well if you change your mind and do so, please remember the "NSFW" tag, if that's the kind of private video you're talking about.

379

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:10:25pm

re: #375 justdanny

disabled

380

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:10:34pm

re: #343 Zimriel

re: #345 Gus 802

If Pipes' description of Iran's political system is correct all what's happening now would seem to be of secondary importance. The populace rages over breadcrumbs while the mullahs are eating cake and never intended it to be anyway different. And they're building a-bombs too. It's all about the a-bomb. Missiles with a-bombs, suitcases with a-bombs, ships entering major Western ports with an armed a-bomb. made in Iran. All else becomes less important considering this. Or am I missing something?

381

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:10:40pm

re: #373 Sharmuta

Which is precisely why I do not go to other web sites.

382

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:10:54pm

383

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:11:00pm

re: #362 slokat

Thanks. I can't seem to get to that article however. It just takes me to an ad and then to their main page.

384

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:11:15pm

re: #368 albusteve

maybe not...who knows how many Iranians have a beef with Israel

I have a book of translations from Iranian bloggers, "We Are Iran". Its bloggers feel that Israel is an apartheid state and should be dissolved as such, just like our Left does. However they also feel that the regime cares more about the Palestinians than about Iranians. And the conspiracy rumour mill in Iran claims that Iran has hired Palestinian and Lebanese goons to beef up its paramilitaries.

385

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:11:48pm

re: #365 albusteve

it's knee jerk...a fantasy..but it would be nice if Israel and the US made a concerted effort to resolve the nuke situation while reaching out to moderate Iranians...they must know the nuke thing will finish badly for them

I don't thank anyone has actually came up with a non-asinine plan to do just that, despite the glaringly obvious need for it. I don't think the Bush Administration "got it" and the Obama administration does not "get it" either, but for different reasons of course.

386

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:12:10pm

re: #379 albusteve

disabled

Just doube-click it and watch it on the youtube page.

387

Dekar Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:12:12pm

Israel doesnt have to do it overtly

388

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:12:23pm

re: #366 jcm

If the it looks like nothing is going to come of the riots, the time to strike is when the military is distracted with internal matters.

strictly pragmatic viewpoint

Perhaps...only if it is clear that nothing will come of the riots. While there is still a slim chance something could come of them, I say hold on. They will still be weak/distracted for the brief period that a crackdown gains an upper hand.

389

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:12:25pm

re: #379 albusteve

390

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:12:38pm

re: #377 avanti

When did conservatives grow so enamored of nation building ? Once they were wary of foreign adventures. All we would do by interfering is rally the opposition behind the present government and against the great Satan. If revolution comes, it'll come from within.

nobody said anything about nation building...where the hell did you come up with that?

391

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:12:54pm

re: #377 avanti

When did conservatives grow so enamored of nation building ? Once they were wary of foreign adventures. All we would do by interfering is rally the opposition behind the present government and against the great Satan. If revolution comes, it'll come from within.

/and we should be in there pushing the pro-Western contingent with suitcases full of cash and secure communications equipments

392

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:13:07pm

re: #389 justdanny

:(

I forgot the dbl click...thanks

393

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:13:18pm

Microsoft to give away anti-virus

dlrWTJiCp1U

Copy and paste the two together in your browser

394

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:13:24pm

re: #368 albusteve

maybe not...who knows how many Iranians have a beef with Israel

Many likely do not focus their every waking day on Isreal--but getting attacked by a country has a way of focusing attention on the attacker.

395

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:13:59pm

re: #381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Reversing" immigration means deportation. He's more than willing to violate the rights of legal residents and citizens. Disgusting.

396

slokat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:14:31pm

re: #383 Pvt Bin Jammin

Thanks. I can't seem to get to that article however. It just takes me to an ad and then to their main page.

click the skip this intro button, at least that worked for me...

397

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:14:45pm

This is totally off topic but my XP was getting the "blue screen" error (every 15 minutes or so) this morning, since the windows update. I've been humming along now on my old IE6 for about four hours now with no problems.

398

avanti Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:15:07pm

re: #390 albusteve

nobody said anything about nation building...where the hell did you come up with that?

What exactly do you think we should be doing then ? I'm seeing calls to strike now, by either us or the Israelis.

399

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:15:18pm

re: #388 BryanS

Perhaps...only if it is clear that nothing will come of the riots. While there is still a slim chance something could come of them, I say hold on. They will still be weak/distracted for the brief period that a crackdown gains an upper hand.

If we had cojones in the WH some stuff falling off a B-2 and changing the power structure a tad might not be noticed in the immediate ruckus. It could be chalked up to local actions.

400

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:15:41pm

re: #397 Pvt Bin Jammin

This is totally off topic but my XP was getting the "blue screen" error (every 15 minutes or so) this morning, since the windows update. I've been humming along now on my old IE6 for about four hours now with no problems.

Thanks for sharing! :D

401

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:16:07pm

re: #376 Last Mohican

I didn't read it that way -- I can't imagine American right-winger having any fondness for Ahmedinejad. But it did strike me as a weird, uncharacteristic non sequitur for him to conclude a discussion of the Iranian election with a swipe at the left. He usually stays on topic.

Perhaps I jumped to that conclusion. I assumed this since the first part of last paragraph read: I realize that this pragmatic view shocks the tender sensibilities of left-wingers. The opposite of which would be: this pragmatic view will not shock the sensibilities of left-wingers. Like I said he's entitled to his opinion.

402

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:16:22pm

re: #396 slokat

click the skip this intro button, at least that worked for me...

I tried that twice & it just went to the main page. Strange.

403

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:16:38pm

Microsoft is poised to start giving away security software.

The company is reportedly trialling free anti-virus software internally and said the beta version would be released "soon".

Called Morro, the software will tackle viruses but lack the broader range of utilities, such as parental locks, found in paid-for security suites.

Morro will be Microsoft's second venture in the highly competitive security market.

Microsoft's first attempt revolved around the Windows Live OneCare service that did not succeed in turning many customers away from rivals such as Symantec and McAfee.

/hey, you first

404

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:16:46pm

re: #398 avanti

What exactly do you think we should be doing then ? I'm seeing calls to strike now, by either us or the Israelis.

And such calls are being criticized here as bad ideas.

What I think Killian was suggesting was serious diplomatic pressure (which wont happen thanks to Obama), pressure/sanctions form the UN (LOL), and like he said... suitcases full of cash to the more organized resistance.

405

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:16:52pm

re: #398 avanti

What exactly do you think we should be doing then ? I'm seeing calls to strike now, by either us or the Israelis.

Observations.

Iran is distracted with internal matters.

A move in against the nucs might not have such a window again.

406

Gus Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:17:02pm

Correction:

re: #401 Gus 802

Perhaps I jumped to that conclusion. I assumed this since the first part of last paragraph read: I realize that this pragmatic view shocks the tender sensibilities of left-wingers. The opposite of which would be: this pragmatic view will not shock the sensibilities of right-wingers. Like I said he's entitled to his opinion.

PIMF!

407

avanti Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:17:07pm

re: #391 Killian Bundy

/and we should be in there pushing the pro-Western contingent with suitcases full of cash and secure communications equipments

I'd be surprised if the CIA had not been doing some of that for decades.

408

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:17:32pm

re: #400 guftafs

Thanks for sharing! :D

Forgot to say I was on Firefox when having the trouble.

409

BryanS Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:18:07pm

re: #399 jcm

If we had cojones in the WH some stuff falling off a B-2 and changing the power structure a tad might not be noticed in the immediate ruckus. It could be chalked up to local actions.

I was holding out hope that Netanyahu's Sunday speech was intended to announce their successful raid on Iranian nuke installations :) However this election result is "even" better for the prospects of a change in Iran than a Moussavi win would have been.

410

slokat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:18:17pm

re: #402 Pvt Bin Jammin

I tried that twice & it just went to the main page. Strange.

The blue screen gremlin in your computer is bored...

411

nyc redneck Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:18:17pm

re: #46 Nevergiveup

And what proof do you have it was rigged?

i don't think it matters if it was technically rigged or not. iran is a totalitarian regime.
the mullahs control everything.
they can say what they want and make it so.
that is the extent of the freedom there.
none.
i think the election was a scam. and up until they declared din-jac the winner, the result was up to the whim of the mullahs.
they decided to stay w/ the mouth piece they had.
now they will tone him done and go forward getting nukes.

i think that is the reason for he outrage of the iranian citizens. they realize they never had a chance. how frustrating. and demoralizing.

412

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:18:42pm

re: #384 Zimriel

And the conspiracy rumour mill in Iran claims that Iran has hired Palestinian and Lebanese goons to beef up its paramilitaries.

Excuse me? "Goons"? Do you know how much money it takes to train a halfway decent enforcer?

413

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:19:19pm

re: #398 avanti

What exactly do you think we should be doing then ? I'm seeing calls to strike now, by either us or the Israelis.

helping foster a regime change is not nation building imo...there has been many posts about what we could be doing...I get radical and want to bomb the nukes...as others have pointed out there is great reservation there...that said, doing nothing but enjoying a robust riot/debate is shallow and shows contempt for freedom loving people in Iran

414

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:19:55pm

re: #407 avanti

I'd be surprised if the CIA had not been doing some of that for decades.

/and if they did it correctly, this would probably be the point in history where we should be seeing the fruits of their labor unfold

415

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:19:59pm

In the private videos I'm seeing, the protestors seem to be winning. Which I cant imagine is really a good thing overall.

416

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:20:07pm

re: #395 Sharmuta

"Reversing" immigration means deportation. He's more than willing to violate the rights of legal residents and citizens. Disgusting.

He would say it doesn't necessarily mean deportation. One meme I've seen on the palaeo Right is that we should be paying immigrants to leave. /devil's advocate

Putting my cynic's hat back on, I don't buy that position. I think they're trying to get a precedent going for voluntary deportation and that they'll go for the involuntary version when they can.

417

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:20:20pm

re: #399 jcm

If we had cojones in the WH some stuff falling off a B-2 and changing the power structure a tad might not be noticed in the immediate ruckus. It could be chalked up to local actions.

again, yes

418

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:20:33pm

419

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:20:40pm

re: #410 slokat

The blue screen gremlin in your computer is bored...

LOL He must be.

I posted an article here on LGF last year & somebody said that it went to the main page of the paper too so I guess sometimes that happens.

420

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:20:42pm

I *think* I had a strange encounter at the park. For some reason, my battery died. The father of one of The Kid's playmates came over to jump it. He had an Iron Cross tatoo on his right arm with the letters SRW in Gothicky print below it. On his left arm was the word "CHRISTIAN" in Gothicky print going down the length of his forearm with another word next to it that I couldn't read. He was very buff and had a shaved head, as did his buddy.

Is he a Nazi?

421

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:21:44pm

re: #407 avanti

I'd be surprised if the CIA had not been doing some of that for decades.

Not likely. Very little if any.

It's been sigint for the most part.

There has been a decided disregard in the intel world for Arab and Persian language and culture skills.

422

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:21:52pm

re: #416 Zimriel

"Hugh" didn't offer any sort of plan for reversing immigration- not even offering a payment program. I don't think he cares how it's done.

423

slokat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:22:54pm

OT - what your tattoos say about you from Cracked

424

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:22:56pm

re: #118 avanti

OT I've often complained about the unnecessary comments on the First Ladies appearance, but this Republican blogger just went over the top. BTW, just in time for the MSM to take the heat of Letterman I'll bet.

Gorilla.

And as we all know, there's no racism component here. He would have said the same thing if the First Lady were white. ///

425

transient Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:23:05pm

I seem to have missed most of the discussion and I can't say I followed the election closely-- what was the point? Both candidates were "pre-approved" by the mullahs.

The mullahs do not agree on everything, however. There are subtle political differences which escape us here in the West. Like, should Israel be nuked into oblivion, or are conventional weapons satisfactory? Should we elect a president who is in-your-face about his opposition to the West, or someone who is more subtle about his antipathy?

So policy-wise there is no significant difference between Ahmadinejad and Mousavi. In a sense, Ahmadinejad is better for us "neo-cons" because no one has any doubts about where he stands. Mousavi might have gone farther to convince soft ~~hearted~~ headed Westerners that the regime is approachable.

I don't think the mullahs as a group would have interfered in the election. Either candidate was "their boy." But it is certainly possible that the Revolutionary Guards, backing Ahmadinejad, stole the election from a more popular Mousavi.

If this is one more straw that irritates the Iranian people into rebelling against their totalitarian theocracy, great. But I don't think it's the last straw. I think it will open a few eyes in Iran, but I don't think we are going to see imminent revolution. The regime is quite capable of suppressing the opposition.

426

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:23:15pm

re: #418 justdanny

that's ALOT of friggin people

427

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:23:36pm

re: #413 albusteve

helping foster a regime change is not nation building imo...there has been many posts about what we could be doing...I get radical and want to bomb the nukes...as others have pointed out there is great reservation there...that said, doing nothing but enjoying a robust riot/debate is shallow and shows contempt for freedom loving people in Iran

The IDF has the same thing running through their heads.

They've planned and practiced the mission at this point.

428

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:24:13pm

re: #416 Zimriel

He would say it doesn't necessarily mean deportation. One meme I've seen on the palaeo Right is that we should be paying immigrants to leave. /devil's advocate

Putting my cynic's hat back on, I don't buy that position. I think they're trying to get a precedent going for voluntary deportation and that they'll go for the involuntary version when they can.

They are just trying to make their position which is completely racist, seem more reasonable to the average person. Pukecannan has been twisting himself into a pretzel for decades to not look like he's a racist, and since he's got jobs on Fox and MSNBC, and sells a lot of books to people who aren't in the JBS or Stormfront members, it apparently worked well enough. I'll admit, there were short times where even I fell for his spin.

429

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:24:51pm

re: #420 MandyManners

I *think* I had a strange encounter at the park. For some reason, my battery died. The father of one of The Kid's playmates came over to jump it. He had an Iron Cross tatoo on his right arm with the letters SRW in Gothicky print below it. On his left arm was the word "CHRISTIAN" in Gothicky print going down the length of his forearm with another word next to it that I couldn't read. He was very buff and had a shaved head, as did his buddy.

Is he a Nazi?

Mr Goodwrench...relax...did you give him your number?

430

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:25:18pm

re: #412 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Excuse me? "Goons"? Do you know how much money it takes to train a halfway decent enforcer?

Gidd'auta'ere!

431

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:26:03pm

re: #426 albusteve

its getting bigger

Carter honored by Palestinians

Tehran is being shut down. Communications lines are being turned off

432

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:26:10pm

re: #420 MandyManners

I *think* I had a strange encounter at the park. For some reason, my battery died. The father of one of The Kid's playmates came over to jump it. He had an Iron Cross tatoo on his right arm with the letters SRW in Gothicky print below it. On his left arm was the word "CHRISTIAN" in Gothicky print going down the length of his forearm with another word next to it that I couldn't read. He was very buff and had a shaved head, as did his buddy.

Is he a Nazi?

I don't know. SRW doesn't map to anything white-nationalist-y I could recall or Google. It usually means "Super Robot Wars". That's probably not it; it's more likely a girl's initials.

433

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:26:30pm

re: #427 jcm

The IDF has the same thing running through their heads.

They've planned and practiced the mission at this point.

well they have their 'shiny object' now

434

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:26:31pm

re: #425 transient

The people saw a chance with Mousavi, approved or not.

The outcome depends on the people of Iran.

Are they willing to make the expenditures (yes I mean the bloody kind) necessary to wrest control of the country.

435

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:26:42pm

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter was honored by the Palestinian government Saturday and pledged to support the Palestinians' campaign for independence to the end of his days.

In his acceptance speech, Carter urged the Palestinians to end their internal divisions and stop persecuting their rivals.

/meanwhile, back in bizarro world . . .

436

slokat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:26:44pm

YouTube page with riot vids - Tehran 6/13/09

437

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:26:57pm

Near the SRW was the number "88" so, I think he is. A Nazi.

438

Truck Monkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:27:20pm

re: #420 MandyManners

I *think* I had a strange encounter at the park. For some reason, my battery died. The father of one of The Kid's playmates came over to jump it. He had an Iron Cross tatoo on his right arm with the letters SRW in Gothicky print below it. On his left arm was the word "CHRISTIAN" in Gothicky print going down the length of his forearm with another word next to it that I couldn't read. He was very buff and had a shaved head, as did his buddy.

Is he a Nazi?

You say he had a "buddy" hmmm? Very butchy biker gay. That's what I say.

439

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:27:42pm

re: #432 Zimriel

I don't know. SRW doesn't map to anything white-nationalist-y I could recall or Google. It usually means "Super Robot Wars". That's probably not it; it's more likely a girl's initials.

I took the RW in SRW to stand for Racial War.

440

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:27:48pm

re: #431 justdanny

its getting bigger

[Video]

Tehran is being shut down. Communications lines are being turned off

Watch Shiraz, Isfahan, those would have been Mousavi strong points also.

441

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:27:54pm

re: #437 MandyManners

Near the SRW was the number "88" so, I think he is. A Nazi.

Yeah- I wasn't sure at first, but an "88" pushes me over the line.

442

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:28:05pm

re: #415 justdanny

Are the government forces dressed as civilians, policemen or soldiers?
Just curious.

443

guftafs Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:28:05pm

re: #425 transient

So unless the priesthood goes too, things stay basically the same, it would seem.

444

AuntAcid Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:28:18pm

re: #420 MandyManners

I *think* I had a strange encounter at the park. For some reason, my battery died. The father of one of The Kid's playmates came over to jump it. He had an Iron Cross tatoo on his right arm with the letters SRW in Gothicky print below it. On his left arm was the word "CHRISTIAN" in Gothicky print going down the length of his forearm with another word next to it that I couldn't read. He was very buff and had a shaved head, as did his buddy.

Is he a Nazi?

gay...fear not.

445

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:28:23pm

re: #438 Truck Monkey

You say he had a "buddy" hmmm? Very butchy biker gay. That's what I say.

Theye were there with their wives and kids. Besides, we don't have homosexual bikers around here.

446

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:29:26pm

re: #441 Sharmuta

Yeah- I wasn't sure at first, but an "88" pushes me over the line.

He had some 1940's date but I feared it would be too rude to stare any longer.

447

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:29:30pm

re: #441 Sharmuta

Yeah- I wasn't sure at first, but an "88" pushes me over the line.

Yeah, me too. If you'd mentioned that at first it would have been obvious.

448

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:29:35pm

re: #445 MandyManners

Theye were there with their wives and kids. Besides, we don't have homosexual bikers around here.

Iran?

/ducks

449

ryannon Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:29:37pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

It's a little too soon to get excited about this but if there was a popular revolution and the mullahs were disposed that would solve a lot of problems for everybody.

Posted this late in previous thread, but worth repeating:

Watch the BBC video: they're young.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Iranian demographics: more than half the population is under thirty:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That fact alone could be a real game-changer.

450

pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:29:46pm

re: #440 jcm

Watch Shiraz, Isfahan, those would have been Mousavi strong points also.

Tabriz too, IIRC

/off to the store ... bbl

451

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:29:47pm

re: #445 MandyManners

Theye were there with their wives and kids. Besides, we don't have homosexual bikers around here.

We're everywhere.

452

Truck Monkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:29:59pm

re: #445 MandyManners

Theye were there with their wives and kids. Besides, we don't have homosexual bikers around here.

Did he look like Mr. Slave on South Park? Leather vest and chaps?

453

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:30:20pm

re: #431 justdanny

its getting bigger

Tehran is being shut down. Communications lines are being turned off

/tea party!

454

calvin coolidge Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:30:21pm

It was the most open, free and transparent election I have ever witnessed. (Well, I didn't actually witness it) But believe me, it was fair. Take my word on it. Sincerely, Jimmie Carter

455

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:30:27pm

re: #451 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

We're everywhere.

There are no gay people in Iran.

456

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:30:50pm

re: #446 MandyManners

I think you've provided enough details to push this encounter into the "scary" category.

457

slokat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:31:34pm

Today's uploads about Tehran

458

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:31:35pm

re: #455 Sharmuta

There are no gay people in Iran.

Ah, but I was not actually in Iran when I said that.

Got you there.

459

SummerSong Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:31:40pm

This Iranian blog has stills and videos -

[Link: shooresh1917.blogspot.com...]

460

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:31:45pm

re: #442 Lincolntf
Both. Where forces are trying to barricade areas I see uniformed. Where street fights are happening I see ununiformed.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

461

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:31:57pm

re: #447 Zimriel

Yeah, me too. If you'd mentioned that at first it would have been obvious.

I wrote it all down on a piece of paper as soon as I could but, I was driving and I wrote over some words. Very messy.

462

Ayeless in Ghazi Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:32:19pm

re: #373 Sharmuta

Following up on Killgore's comment that these election riots are not getting much coverage on righty blogs, I thought I'd check up on jihad watch. Unsurprisingly, there is a piece by "hugh fitzgerald" calling for western muslim immigration to be "reversed".

They weren't shy about posting on Ahmedinejad's victory though - they were all over that one in a second.

463

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:32:55pm

This is not going to be a popular statement.

If BHO had lost the election I (yes, he won it honestly, with Acorn and the media's help, but he won), a million people would have walked through DC and would have raised enough ruckus to look that it had been stolen.

The hard-liners may not be popular with the young folks, but there are a bunch of hard-liners voting also.

That little bastard may have won honestly (as honestly as BHO, at least).

464

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:33:14pm

re: #456 Last Mohican

I think you've provided enough details to push this encounter into the "scary" category.

Yeah. The hair on the back of my neck stood straight up.

465

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:33:40pm

re: #445 MandyManners

You Iranian?

466

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:33:48pm

re: #460 justdanny

Both. Where forces are trying to barricade areas I see uniformed. Where street fights are happening I see ununiformed.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

/it doesn't seem organized enough to reach critical mass, the steam will eventually blow off and it'll be over

467

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:33:59pm

re: #458 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

How ya' doing, ShortShit?

468

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:34:59pm

We don't have bikers around here. We have Yuppies who ride Harleys. I suppose one or more of them could be homosexual.

469

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:35:16pm

re: #462 Jimmah

They weren't shy about posting on Ahmedinejad's victory though - they were all over that one in a second.

Oh, they are not alone. As the evening wore on, I watched some of your Fox and CNN. Fox was talking about the Madoff man. CNN was talking about health care.

Speaking of TV, I should get back to work. Uprisings don't just crush themselves, I'm afraid.

470

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:35:51pm

re: #466 Killian Bundy

/it doesn't seem organized enough to reach critical mass, the steam will eventually blow off and it'll be over

they don't have the blind lust, and the Mullahs will not help them find it by gunning down protesters...sticks and slaps

471

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:36:04pm

re: #463 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't believe this was an honest election. For one thing- the counting should still be going on. These are hand written ballots, not electronic. They haven't had the time to count all the votes, but they know the results. Bullshit.

Second- there is this story:

Faulty Election Data

Statistically and mathematically, it is impossible to maintain such perfect linear relations between the votes of any two candidates in any election — and at all stages of vote counting.

This was never intended to be a free and fair election.

472

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:36:20pm

[Link: www....] youtube.com /user/khosravi2500

473

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:36:30pm

Fox's Madoff special today was very interesting.

474

transient Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:36:34pm

re: #434 jcm

The people saw a chance with Mousavi, approved or not.

The outcome depends on the people of Iran.

Are they willing to make the expenditures (yes I mean the bloody kind) necessary to wrest control of the country.

Right...and their disappointment will breed disaffection and disillusionment, which we hope will grow into something greater.
I do not believe they are ready to pay the price of revolution at this point.

You also have to ask, who would be leading this revolution? Is there a group of people trying to organize opposition? If there were, they would be very covert and we probably wouldn't know who they were. But are they capable of inspiring a revolution and leading a government?

475

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:36:59pm

re: #440 jcm

Watch Shiraz, Isfahan, those would have been Mousavi strong points also.

jcm, thank you for your insight into life inside Iran.

As an aside on Isfahan, it features in Islamic apocalyptic. It's one of the cities on the Antichrist's side (In Islam, he's called al-Dajjal). There are supposed to be 70,000 Jews in there who will sign up, and a lot of women too. David Cook, Studies in Muslim Apocalyptic (SLAEI 21, Darwin Press, 2002), 99. Or, on Google, 3730 links to Dajjal Jews Isfahan.

I could see pro-Americans in Isfahan being painted as the Jews in that prophecy. Which is to say, if I lived there, I would send my family out of town about now.

476

Zimriel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:38:17pm

Funny how antiSemitism, misogyny, and end-of-times madness always seem to converge.

477

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:39:35pm

re: #463 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

True. There were people threatening to stage violent riots in the United States if BHO lost, even if he lost legitimately. I found that pretty appalling at the time, and I think this kind of direct rebuke of democracy should have earned more media attention. I think we all know why it didn't.

However, from clicking the many excellent links here, I'm getting the impression that most people who are more expert on the subject than I are concluding that the Iran results had to be bogus. But who knows.

478

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:40:03pm

re: #471 Sharmuta

You're probably right. But there is no chance that there are enough hard-line voters in Iran to elect the little bastard?

I'm hope I'm not being naive or obtuse...or perpendicular.

479

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:40:57pm

re: #466 Killian Bundy

I have friends in threee major cities. All of them are saying disorder is everywhere. In Shiraz I'm told there have been large expolsions.

Whether or not it reaches critical mass is Im told determined by support given to the uprising by the officials of the losing side. The revolt is needing a leader.

480

transient Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:40:57pm

re: #443 guftafs

So unless the priesthood goes too, things stay basically the same, it would seem.

Any revolution would require removing the people currently in power, of whom many are clerics. It does not mean getting rid of every mullah in the country.

481

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:41:22pm

Oh, BTW, I think it is a stolen election. Just wondering out here.

482

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:42:13pm

I was aware that there were allegations about the Minutemen being kinda suspect but.......
Head of a minuteman group arrested for double homicide

Three people have been arrested in connection with last months deadly double homicide in Arivaca that left a nine-year-old and her father dead. One of the people arrested for the homicide is the National Executive Director of the Minuteman American Defense group (M.A.D.), a group known for patrolling the border, and is dedicated to "Defending America's Borders" according to their website -

Jason Eugene Bush, 38, Shawna Forde, 42 and Albert Robert Gaxiola, 43, were all taken into custody and charged in connection with the murders of 29-year-old Raul Flores and 8-year-old Brisenia Flores. Both were killed during an alleged home invasion.

According to authorities, Bush, Forde, and Gaxiola broke into the home of the Flores family just after midnight on May 30th. At the time, the mother, father and daughter were home. The invaders reportedly shot the three members of the Flores family, killing the father, Raul, and the daughter, Brisenia. The invaders then left the scene.

Wow.

483

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:42:16pm

re: #474 transient

Right...and their disappointment will breed disaffection and disillusionment, which we hope will grow into something greater.
I do not believe they are ready to pay the price of revolution at this point.

You also have to ask, who would be leading this revolution? Is there a group of people trying to organize opposition? If there were, they would be very covert and we probably wouldn't know who they were. But are they capable of inspiring a revolution and leading a government?

Hard to tell, any leaders will be word of mouth kind of thing. Don't want to be a nail sticking up, 'cause hammers hurt. If the current unrest gains steam we'll see some brave souls coming forward.

484

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:42:37pm

re: #479 justdanny

I have friends in threee major cities. All of them are saying disorder is everywhere. In Shiraz I'm told there have been large expolsions.

Whether or not it reaches critical mass is Im told determined by support given to the uprising by the officials of the losing side. The revolt is needing a leader.

/I sure hope they find one, and quickly, time is of the essence

485

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:43:27pm

re: #482 Killgore Trout

I was aware that there were allegations about the Minutemen being kinda suspect but.......
Head of a minuteman group arrested for double homicide

Wow.

Wow is right.

486

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:43:58pm

re: #481 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, BTW, I think it is a stolen election. Just wondering out here.

it's not stolen...it's manipulated...Iran is not a democratic country regardless of sham elections

487

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:44:50pm

re: #485 jcm

My first thought was that maube there was a racial motive but it looks like they were targeting a drug dealer in hopes of finding cash. If there was a racial motive I guess it was secondary.

488

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:45:00pm

re: #484 Killian Bundy

/I sure hope they find one, and quickly, time is of the essence

To bad we haven't been playing the Soldarity card in Iran laying the ground work for just this moment.

489

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:45:07pm

re: #482 Killgore Trout

I was aware that there were allegations about the Minutemen being kinda suspect but.......
Head of a minuteman group arrested for double homicide

Wow.

Forde's organization is not directly connected to the more commonly known minutemen organization, Minutemen Civil Defense Corps or the Minutemen project run by Chris Simcox and James Gilchrist.

490

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:45:21pm

491

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:45:29pm

re: #478 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're probably right. But there is no chance that there are enough hard-line voters in Iran to elect the little bastard?

I'm hope I'm not being naive or obtuse...or perpendicular.

Possibly, but indicators before and during the election showed much different results. Based on all the stuff folks have already pointed out on this thread, I don't think this was a fair election.

492

Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:45:43pm

re: #484 Killian Bundy

Years ago there used to be a loose network of Iranian exiles/dissidents that had ended up in the West and would occasionally be on TV, write letters to the Editor, etc. I think they considered themselves some sort of Government-in-exile. Haven't seen mention of them for a long time.

493

Ayeless in Ghazi Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:45:47pm

This does not look like the aftermath of an honestly won landslide election to me. No way.

494

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:46:03pm

re: #487 Killgore Trout

My first thought was that maube there was a racial motive but it looks like they were targeting a drug dealer in hopes of finding cash. If there was a racial motive I guess it was secondary.

Bad mojo any way you cut it.

Another good idea fucked up by people who can't control themselves.

495

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:46:43pm

re: #482 Killgore Trout

cops murder people
priests rape boys
nothing new

496

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:46:45pm

re: #489 MandyManners

Forde's organization is not directly connected to the more commonly known minutemen organization, Minutemen Civil Defense Corps or the Minutemen project run by Chris Simcox and James Gilchrist.

Ooops! I meant to put the above into quotation format.

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik says, "We are not charging any of the minutemen groups with anything. But one of these individuals was involved with one of those groups."

497

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:46:45pm

re: #486 albusteve

it's not stolen...it's manipulated...Iran is not a democratic country regardless of sham elections

That's why I'm so surprised. Doesn't the supreme Ayatollah have to approve every candidate who's even allowed to run? And, therefore, how much of a change could Mousavi really have brought? Why are so many people willing to be beaten in the streets, imprisoned, and probably killed for a man who's probably just another tool of the regime?

498

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:47:39pm

re: #489 MandyManners

Forde's organization is not directly connected to the more commonly known minutemen organization, Minutemen Civil Defense Corps or the Minutemen project run by Chris Simcox and James Gilchrist.

That a good to hear...

499

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:47:50pm

500

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:48:01pm

re: #493 Jimmah

This does not look like the aftermath of an honestly won landslide election to me. No way.

I agree. It looks more like the Iranians know they've been duped.

501

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:48:25pm

re: #489 MandyManners

Forde's organization is not directly connected to the more commonly known minutemen organization, Minutemen Civil Defense Corps or the Minutemen project run by Chris Simcox and James Gilchrist.

I'm not sure which is which. Weren't there allegations of racism at one point? I don't know which minutemen group was involved.

502

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:49:07pm

re: #490 justdanny

These protests are incredible.

But again, aren't both candidates pre-approved by the ruling regime anyway?

503

Dirk Diggler Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:49:09pm

Sharmuta,

This was never intended to be a free and fair election.

Nope. "Dirty pool" was a given for this election. Unfortunately the results were more lopsided for Mousavi than expected, which forced the Mullahs to make the election more unfree and unfair than they had anticipated.

504

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:49:15pm

re: #499 justdanny

Not big enough? Not enough people?

505

Rancher Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:50:08pm

re: #311 AuntAcid

... only 12 people were killed in T-Square.

12 people and a dream.

506

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:50:12pm

re: #497 Last Mohican

That's why I'm so surprised. Doesn't the supreme Ayatollah have to approve every candidate who's even allowed to run? And, therefore, how much of a change could Mousavi really have brought? Why are so many people willing to be beaten in the streets, imprisoned, and probably killed for a man who's probably just another tool of the regime?

they are severely repressed...they have their hopes that it might have been a better outcome, in terms of moderation...they are truly fucked

507

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:50:39pm

re: #502 Last Mohican

These protests are incredible.

But again, aren't both candidates pre-approved by the ruling regime anyway?

Yes, but the young hoping for change invested in Mousavi, going in he was a heavy favorite.

508

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:51:33pm

re: #501 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure which is which. Weren't there allegations of racism at one point? I don't know which minutemen group was involved.

of course...anyone wanting the border closed is a racist...the Minutemen were therefore supreme racists

509

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:51:39pm

re: #506 albusteve

they are severely repressed...they have their hopes that it might have been a better outcome, in terms of moderation...they are truly fucked

I'm not convinced they're just going to take it this time. This could give rise to a greater movement down the road.

510

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:51:59pm

re: #499 justdanny

Youtube Video

/if they want to win, they need to take that directly to where the mullahs live and depose them, 1979 in reverse

511

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:52:18pm

re: #498 jcm

That a good to hear...

I cracked up when I read that the sheriff called her a "psychopath".

512

Ayeless in Ghazi Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:52:32pm

re: #502 Last Mohican

These protests are incredible.

But again, aren't both candidates pre-approved by the ruling regime anyway?

Perhaps it's the entire sham they are protesting.

513

Cathypop Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:52:45pm

re: #504 justdanny

Not big enough? Not enough people?

Looks big to me. Any idea what they are yelling?

514

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:53:05pm

re: #501 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure which is which. Weren't there allegations of racism at one point? I don't know which minutemen group was involved.

Aren't there always allegations of racism when people forcefully push back against illegal immigration?

515

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:53:23pm

They're mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore.

516

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:53:30pm

re: #502 Last Mohican

Yes. The guardin council makes all the rules and approves all candidates. But the important thing to know is that these demonstrations are against the guardian council as well as Nejad.

517

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:53:36pm

re: #512 Jimmah

Perhaps it's the entire sham they are protesting.

That part is real enough. People are dying.

518

_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:54:06pm

re: #348 albusteve

I agree totally...Israel should strike, now

I don't think Israel should strike now. THAT would rally regular iranians around the current govt in a show of nationalism. However, our special forces SHOULD cause some mischief like blowing up the top refinery in iran. That COULD be seen as domestic unrest as opposed to the Jooooos attacking muslims.

519

SummerSong Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:54:06pm

Rumors on twitter saying Mousavi and Karroubi (both reformist candidates) are under house arrest.

520

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:54:34pm

re: #509 Sharmuta

I'm not convinced they're just going to take it this time. This could give rise to a greater movement down the road.

maybe so...either way I respect your positive attitude about it...very unpredictable at this point

521

Ayeless in Ghazi Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:54:59pm

re: #517 jcm

That part is real enough. People are dying.

You misunderstand. I meant maybe they are protesting against the whole elections sham, not that there is anything sham about the protests. They are absolutely genuine, no one could question that.

522

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:55:04pm

re: #514 MandyManners

Aren't there always allegations of racism when people forcefully push back against illegal immigration?

Yes. The very idea that the United States government should have any power to decide which people are allowed to live in the country, and which aren't, is generally dismissed as racist by the Left.

523

ryannon Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:55:35pm

re: #420 MandyManners

I *think* I had a strange encounter at the park. For some reason, my battery died. The father of one of The Kid's playmates came over to jump it. He had an Iron Cross tatoo on his right arm with the letters SRW in Gothicky print below it. On his left arm was the word "CHRISTIAN" in Gothicky print going down the length of his forearm with another word next to it that I couldn't read. He was very buff and had a shaved head, as did his buddy.

Is he a Nazi?

All I can say is, probably not Amish.

524

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:55:42pm

re: #513 Cathypop

Looks big to me. Any idea what they are yelling?

"we want the Stones!....we want the Stones!"

525

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:55:42pm

re: #508 albusteve

of course...anyone wanting the border closed is a racist...the Minutemen were therefore supreme racists

I just learning the difference between the different minutemen groups. Here's the one started by Chris Simcox and James Gilchrist (not involved in the murder story I posted)....
Jim Gilchrist

According to a report from the Southern Poverty Law Center, Gilchrist willingly allowed members of the National Alliance, one of the United States' largest neo-Nazi organizations, to help with his 2005 House run. Gilchrist has claimed that he refuses to work with white supremacists, but the SPLC report questioned his sincerity. The report interviewed a former volunteer in Gilchrist's campaign who said that "they were basically allowing Nazi skinheads and white nationalists to work the phone banks and do IT and distribute National Alliance fliers targeting non-whites," and that "[when I told them] that didn't want to work for a campaign that was tainted by white supremacy in any way, they told me not to cause a stir."[11] Gilchrist has denied allowing racist individuals in the project.[12]
In October 2006, Gilchrist appeared on Democracy Now and abruptly ended the interview after Karina Garcia started accusing him of being a murderer and said that he has ties to the National Alliance.[13]

In a March 2006, interview with the Orange County Register, Gilchrist stopped just short of calling for his followers to pick up their guns: "I'm not going to promote insurrection, but if it happens, it will be on the conscience of the members of Congress who are doing this," he said. "I will not promote violence in resolving this, but I will not stop others who might pursue that."[14]

He doesn't seem very nice either.

526

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:55:57pm

re: #519 SummerSong

Rumors on twitter saying Mousavi and Karroubi (both reformist candidates) are under house arrest.

/someone should guide the crowds there and free them, this is how revolutions work

527

transient Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:55:59pm

re: #483 jcm

Hard to tell, any leaders will be word of mouth kind of thing. Don't want to be a nail sticking up, 'cause hammers hurt. If the current unrest gains steam we'll see some brave souls coming forward.

Ledeen has been expecting, and talking about encouraging, native resistance for years, but we are still waiting. We would all love to see a rational, pro-Western government in Iran, soon, but I'm not holding my breath.

528

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:56:04pm

re: #499 justdanny

Youtube Video

One comment:

no he didnt cheat ...he just got more support than mousavi gets....n the main reason that mousavi didn win was cuz ahmadinejad told him that u, rafsanjani n khatami are the same shit all of u guys did n do n will do is to steal from iranian people on his debate with mousavi for a first time ever.....he is a real man ahmadinejad...ya right 1300000 votes that he got over mousavi was fake huh...ya right

529

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:56:19pm

re: #514 MandyManners

Aren't there always allegations of racism when people forcefully push back against illegal immigration?

Sometimes they true.

530

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:56:31pm

re: #512 Jimmah

Perhaps it's the entire sham they are protesting.

But most of them seem to be waving green banners, demonstrating their support of Mousavi.

531

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:57:56pm

re: #518 _RememberTonyC

I don't think Israel should strike now. THAT would rally regular iranians around the current govt in a show of nationalism. However, our special forces SHOULD cause some mischief like blowing up the top refinery in iran. That COULD be seen as domestic unrest as opposed to the Jooooos attacking muslims.

nobody would know who attacked who or from where..the beauty of all the confusion...bomb them with propaganda as well

532

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:58:23pm

Latest twitter remors: Khalami and his relatives arrested as well as Ahmed Ziadabadi and Saeed Shariati.

Rioters may have taken over a police station in northern Tehran.

533

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:58:27pm

re: #513 Cathypop

Down with the Dictators!

534

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:58:28pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Sometimes they true.

And, sometimes, they're not.

535

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:59:03pm

Too bad there's no Second Amendment in Iran.

536

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:59:08pm

re: #521 Jimmah

You misunderstand. I meant maybe they are protesting against the whole elections sham, not that there is anything sham about the protests. They are absolutely genuine, no one could question that.

That was the impetuous the whole thing us, but the simmering discontent against the regime is the primary driver.

537

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:59:24pm

Minuteman leader arrested for double homicide

538

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:59:28pm

re: #516 justdanny

Yes. The guardin council makes all the rules and approves all candidates. But the important thing to know is that these demonstrations are against the guardian council as well as Nejad.

[Video]

Ah, didn't see that comment before. I had mostly seen a lot of green banners, but maybe I'm missing a big point.

These demonstrators are really courageous. A lot of them are going to get badly hurt, or much, much worse.

539

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:59:29pm

This post will make me popular.....

"Sheriff [Clarence] Dupnik adds, 'To just kill a 9-year old girl because she could be a potential witness, to me, is one of the most despicable acts I have ever heard of,'" the station reported.

The group's Web site, which does not appear to bear any mention of Jason Bush, places the group as actively involved in the "tea parties" which swept right-wing media around tax day.

The group also takes space on its front page to equate the rallying themes which drove the Confederate states to revolt, leading to the U.S. civil war, with today's 10th Amendment protesters.

This is only the beginning of the bad publicity the Tea Parties are going to generate.

540

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:59:30pm

re: #525 Killgore Trout

well give them a little kiss on the way out then...maybe a peso or two

541

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:59:49pm

re: #533 justdanny

Down with the Dictators!

Up with dictators.

542

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:00:16pm

two friends feed to me have stopped. they are both in Tehran

543

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:00:21pm

re: #538 Last Mohican

Ah, didn't see that comment before. I had mostly seen a lot of green banners, but maybe I'm missing a big point.

These demonstrators are really courageous. A lot of them are going to get badly hurt, or much, much worse.

Green was Mousavi's campaign color.

544

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:00:43pm

re: #542 justdanny

two friends feed to me have stopped. they are both in Tehran

Shutting down all comms.

545

transient Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:00:55pm

I guess we'll see where this rioting/ revolution goes. But if it's all in favor of Mousavi...

...Meet the new boss...same as the old boss.

546

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:01:06pm

re: #534 MandyManners

See #252. I seem to recall that Charles regards them as racists too (Unless I have my Minutemen groups confused)

547

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:01:26pm

Huge crowds of angry, chanting citizens are a powerful force.

/but they need to be focused on the end game, the goal, or else the regime will just wait them out

548

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:01:30pm

re: #542 justdanny

two friends feed to me have stopped. they are both in Tehran

Didn't the government shut down text messaging this weekend?

549

Lynn B. Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:01:38pm

re: #497 Last Mohican

That's why I'm so surprised. Doesn't the supreme Ayatollah have to approve every candidate who's even allowed to run? And, therefore, how much of a change could Mousavi really have brought? Why are so many people willing to be beaten in the streets, imprisoned, and probably killed for a man who's probably just another tool of the regime?

Mousavi campaigned on a promise of internal reform, rooting our corruption in the bureaucracy, improving wages and benefits, that sort of thing. And the mullahs always have the power to thwart any attempts by the president to implement real reform. The president in Iran has no real power. He's a public face on whatever policies the Supreme Leader dictates.

Nevertheless, the people like to feel they have some control over their own destiny, if only a little. Don't we all?

550

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:02:00pm

re: #540 albusteve

I'm not sure what that was supposed to mean. I don't think I want to know.

551

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:02:23pm

re: #541 jcm

Up with dictators.

looks just like he's sleeping

552

Ayeless in Ghazi Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:02:27pm

re: #530 Last Mohican

But most of them seem to be waving green banners, demonstrating their support of Mousavi.

K - I was just speculating.

553

Cathypop Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:02:39pm

re: #542 justdanny

two friends feed to me have stopped. they are both in Tehran

Oh Oh. Hope they stay safe.

554

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:02:51pm

re: #546 Killgore Trout

I don't know enough about them to have an opinion.

555

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:03:16pm

re: #544 jcm

Shutting down all comms.

Hopefully that's not a prelude to the secret police mowing people down.

556

pat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:03:49pm

re: #546 Killgore Trout

This , of course is not The Minutemen , but a group that co-opted the name. The headline is purposefully deceiving. This woman was well known to law enforcement, who termed her a psychopath.

557

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:04:06pm

re: #549 Lynn B.

I guess you're saying that huge numbers of people were deeply moved by a candidate who offered the illusion of "hope" and "change," although he really wasn't planning to offer that.

I guess I can relate to that.

558

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:04:17pm

re: #535 MandyManners

Too bad there's no Second Amendment in Iran.

Just back from the range, coincidentally, so I updinged you!

559

Lynn B. Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:04:51pm

re: #557 Last Mohican

I guess you're saying that huge numbers of people were deeply moved by a candidate who offered the illusion of "hope" and "change," although he really wasn't planning to offer that.

I guess I can relate to that.

LOL!

560

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:04:56pm

re: #556 pat

This , of course is not The Minutemen , but a group that co-opted the name. The headline is purposefully deceiving. This woman was well known to law enforcement, who termed her a psychopath.

Maybe this is sexist of me but, I'm not too sure about the sanity of women who participate in home invasions and killing little kids.

561

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:04:59pm

re: #542 justdanny

two friends feed to me have stopped. they are both in Tehran

I hope your friends are okay.

562

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:05:27pm

re: #558 Occasional Reader

Just back from the range, coincidentally, so I updinged you!

*giggle*

563

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:05:34pm

re: #550 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure what that was supposed to mean. I don't think I want to know.

there are bad people everywhere...some are racist some not...tea parties get hijacked but the principle remains clear and fair...the border should be closed imo but others disagree and I'm a racist...people kill each other for all kinds of reasons....linking it all together is futile

564

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:05:41pm

re: #545 transient

I guess we'll see where this rioting/ revolution goes. But if it's all in favor of Mousavi...

...Meet the new boss...same as the old boss.

Possibly. But if it were to happen, the very idea that the people en masse can thwart the mullahcracy's rigged election choice would be terrifying to them (the mullahs), I think, even if their No. 2 pick wound up in power.

565

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:05:55pm

Are they shutting down the BBC?

566

Rancher Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:06:05pm

re: #497 Last Mohican

That's why I'm so surprised. Doesn't the supreme Ayatollah have to approve every candidate who's even allowed to run? And, therefore, how much of a change could Mousavi really have brought? Why are so many people willing to be beaten in the streets, imprisoned, and probably killed for a man who's probably just another tool of the regime?

Maybe Ledeen has the answer:

By all accounts he is an uninspiring figure, a boring speaker, and an ineffective debater (he was beaten badly in a televised debate with President Ahmadinezhad the other night). So what can account for the frenzy on his behalf?
For one thing, he is not Ahmadinezhad, for whom there is a lot of hatred. The current circus is taking place against a background of mounting repression, featuring public executions of many young people (some said to be homosexuals), mass arrests, summary closing of the few remaining quasi-independent publications, increased censorship of telephone and internet communications, and a lot of nasty action against young people who do not meet the strict dress code and decorum rules imposed by the theocratic dictatorship.

That so many people would openly defy such a regime is certainly significant, and it may well be that the reporters who see the current demonstrations as revolutionary, or at least insurrectionary, are quite right. I have long said that the Iranian people despise the regime, do not want an Islamic Republic, and wish to be part of the Western world, not part of a fanatical regime whose essence consists in supporting anti-American and anti-Israeli terrorism, denying the Holocaust, and singing praises to martyrdom.

In that way, Mousavi can be viewed as similar to the failed “reformer,” Mohammad Khatami, who was unexpectedly elected president in 1997. I once wrote that Khatami was the empty vessel into which the Iranian people had poured their passionate desire for freedom. Khatami did not reform much of anything, and many Iranians came to view him as a stalking horse for the regime’s hard-liners, luring dissidents into the open so that they could be marginalized, tortured, incarcerated and murdered.

But I think Mousavi is different. And the big difference is his wife.

567

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:06:44pm

re: #555 ArchangelMichael

Hopefully that's not a prelude to the secret police mowing people down.

that would be a huge mistake politically...not that they wouldn't do it

568

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:07:20pm

re: #566 Rancher

What's special about his wife?

569

Fenway_Nation Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:08:14pm

How does one say 'Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy!' in Farsi?

And will enough Persian Protest Babes openly defy the mandatory hijab to make the rioting all the more photogenic?

570

chicagodudewhotrades Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:08:16pm

I hate to add a political angle to this when people may be getting arrested/and or beaten up in Iran, but if this protest grows into something and the hardliners are forced to crack down hard, I wonder how that effects the admin's desire to talk to the hardliners?

571

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:08:24pm

WHERE ARE THE COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS?

/ACORN would bring down the mullahs, no sweat

572

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:08:44pm

re: #567 albusteve

that would be a huge mistake politically...not that they wouldn't do it

Camera didn't film it, it didn't happen.

/Thugocrats throughout modern history

573

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:08:50pm

BBC reporting people attacking the "secret police" in Tehran. I'm reminded of Romania in '89...

574

Ayeless in Ghazi Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:09:09pm

Well isn't this interesting: The Mysterious Graph

The 2-to-1 correlation between Ahmadinejad’s and Mousavi’s vote totals remained virtually the same at six different points in the vote tally.

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

575

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:09:25pm

re: #570 chicagodudewhotrades

I hate to add a political angle to this when people may be getting arrested/and or beaten up in Iran, but if this protest grows into something and the hardliners are forced to crack down hard, I wonder how that effects the admin's desire to talk to the hardliners?

Will FCBBHO even give a shit?

576

justdanny Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:09:26pm

re: #548 MandyManners

Not all of it. Iranian 'kids' are probably the most tech savy 'kids' on earth.

577

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:10:34pm

re: #574 Jimmah

That's this graph:

Current local time in Tehran

I'm glad it's getting around. It's the nail in the "free election" coffin, imo.

578

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:10:35pm

re: #572 ArchangelMichael

Camera didn't film it, it didn't happen.

/Thugocrats throughout modern history

ZIONIST PROPAGANDA!

579

Cathypop Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:10:40pm

re: #570 chicagodudewhotrades

I hate to add a political angle to this when people may be getting arrested/and or beaten up in Iran, but if this protest grows into something and the hardliners are forced to crack down hard, I wonder how that effects the admin's desire to talk to the hardliners?

The O will either deny it was a hard crack down or blame it on Bush.

580

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:10:45pm

re: #575 MandyManners

Will FCBBHO even give a shit?

According to reports, the White House is "gravely concerned" over the carbon footprint created by the stuff the rioters are burning.

581

debutaunt Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:10:50pm

re: #331 slokat

4300 counters at 12 ballots a minute for 12 hours = approx. 37million votes

Acorn shells scattered hither and yon.

582

transient Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:10:52pm

re: #564 Occasional Reader

Possibly. But if it were to happen, the very idea that the people en masse can thwart the mullahcracy's rigged election choice would be terrifying to them (the mullahs), I think, even if their No. 2 pick wound up in power.

But there is no reason to believe that Ahmadinejad is in fact the mullah's overwhelming choice. BOTH candidates were approved by the mullocracy, though some probably favored one or the other. If the election was fixed, it was probably by the Revolutionary Guards and possibly some of the factionalized mullahs. So if they back down and "investigate" and act on "the will of the people" and Mousavi gets into power...

It doesn't help us in the West.
Does it help the Iranian people? I don't know. I guess it would be a good step--giving them the feeling that their voices are heard and they can demand change. Who knows. Maybe Mousavi's local policies will benefit them.

I really need to get to work!
Back later.

583

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:10:54pm

re: #575 MandyManners

Will FCBBHO even give a shit?

Probably not. Being that he is a western FCB, anything which appears to invalidate his world-view is marginalized or outright ignored.

584

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:10:59pm

re: #573 Occasional Reader

BBC reporting people attacking the "secret police" in Tehran. I'm reminded of Romania in '89...

Remember the SNL skit when mourners shot into Ceauşescu's casket just to make sure he was dead?

585

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:11:10pm

re: #566 Rancher

Excellent link. Thank you.

You snipped right before a quote from a public speech by Mousavi's wife:

The biggest roar of the afternoon was reserved for the main speaker, Zahra Rahnavard, Mr Mousavi’s wife. “You’re here because you don’t want any more dictatorship,” she declared. “You’re here because you hate fanaticism, because you dream of a free Iran, because you dream of a peaceful relationship with the rest of the world.”

It's amazing that she was even allowed to say something like that in public.

586

Fenway_Nation Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:11:18pm

re: #575 MandyManners

Probably not- just saying he was willing to talk to Achmedinejahd without preconditions cut off most Iranian moderates or reformers at the knees.

587

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:11:32pm

re: #576 justdanny

Not all of it. Iranian 'kids' are probably the most tech savy 'kids' on earth.

I hope your friends stay safe.

588

jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:11:33pm

re: #555 ArchangelMichael

Hopefully that's not a prelude to the secret police mowing people down.

Keeps it from happening on live web cams and cellcams posted on Youtube.

589

Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:11:45pm

re: #569 Fenway_Nation

How does one say 'Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy!' in Farsi?

"Hara'am, Hara'am, Hara'am!"?

590

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:11:52pm

re: #575 MandyManners

Will FCBBHO even give a shit?

Once the mullahs crack down and smash the opposition, "0" can concentrate on getting them to unclench their fists. It will be a Skittley-Delicious-Day-n-Hopey-Changey-Land.

591

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:12:08pm

re: #570 chicagodudewhotrades

I hate to add a political angle to this when people may be getting arrested/and or beaten up in Iran, but if this protest grows into something and the hardliners are forced to crack down hard, I wonder how that effects the admin's desire to talk to the hardliners?

/TOTUS doesn't think like that, if it's he feels it's expedient, he'll offer to talk with a rock

592

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:12:08pm

re: #580 Occasional Reader

According to reports, the White House is "gravely concerned" over the carbon footprint created by the stuff the rioters are burning.

/

But, they said they're glad robust debate is going on!

593

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:12:25pm

re: #580 Occasional Reader

According to reports, the White House is "gravely concerned" over the carbon footprint created by the stuff the rioters are burning.

/

good grief how shallow....

HAHAHA!

594

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:12:33pm

re: #577 Sharmuta

That's this graph:

[Link: tehranbureau.com...]

I'm glad it's getting around. It's the nail in the "free election" coffin, imo.

Wow. From that link:

In the chart below, compiled based on the data released by the Ministry and announced by Iran’s national television, a perfect linear relation between the votes received by the President and Mir Hossein Mousavi has been maintained, and the President’s vote is always half of the President’s

It's amazing how clumsy these sort of thug regimes are. Either they're utterly incompetent, or they're not even trying to hide what they're doing.

595

Dirk Diggler Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:12:44pm

Mandy Manners (#568),

But I think Mousavi is different. And the big difference is his wife. As the Times tells us:

The biggest roar of the afternoon was reserved for the main speaker, Zahra Rahnavard, Mr Mousavi’s wife. “You’re here because you don’t want any more dictatorship,” she declared. “You’re here because you hate fanaticism, because you dream of a free Iran, because you dream of a peaceful relationship with the rest of the world.” The candidate himself was nowhere to be seen…

That Ms Rahnavard has become a central figure in the circus is a big surprise, and perhaps revolutionary in itself. As we all know, women are diminished in the Islamic Republic (as throughout much of the “Islamic world”), to an extent unthinkable in civilized countries. Women are officially worth half a man, have no property rights, have little formal say in the education of their children, have severely limited job opportunities (Khomeini ranted against the shah’s regime in no small part because women were permitted to teach boys) and of course are compelled to cover their bodies, including their hair, lest the sight of them corrupt the otherwise virtuous men. Even Shirin Ebadi, the winner of a Nobel Peace Prize, is regularly silenced or put under virtual house arrest when the rulers decide they’ve had enough of her prattle about human rights.

Mrs. Mousavi sounds like a spark plug.

596

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:12:50pm

re: #583 ArchangelMichael

Probably not. Being that he is a western FCB, anything which appears to invalidate his world-view is marginalized or outright ignored.

Typical narcissist's reaction, too.

597

albusteve Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:13:29pm

re: #585 Last Mohican

Excellent link. Thank you.

You snipped right before a quote from a public speech by Mousavi's wife:

It's amazing that she was even allowed to say something like that in public.

gonna get the crane for that...sedition

598

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:13:40pm

re: #590 IslandLibertarian

Once the mullahs crack down and smash the opposition, "0" can concentrate on getting them to unclench their fists. It will be a Skittley-Delicious-Day-n-Hopey-Changey-Land.

And, the unicorns will frolic!

599

Neutral President Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:14:30pm

re: #580 Occasional Reader

According to reports, the White House is "gravely concerned" over the carbon footprint created by the stuff the rioters are burning.

/

But they are a "developing nation" so their carbon footprint doesn't actually cause climate change. Only American and European C0₂ does that.

/ecokook

600

shiplord kirel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:14:40pm

re: #594 Occasional Reader

It's amazing how clumsy these sort of thug regimes are. Either they're utterly incompetent, or they're not even trying to hide what they're doing.

They have sophisticated western media to do that for them.

601

Lynn B. Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:14:41pm

re: #564 Occasional Reader

Possibly. But if it were to happen, the very idea that the people en masse can thwart the mullahcracy's rigged election choice would be terrifying to them (the mullahs), I think, even if their No. 2 pick wound up in power.

But can they?

The Ashura Brigades force was reportedly created in 1993 after anti-government riots erupted in various Iranian cities and it consists of 17,000 Islamic militia men and women. The Ashura Brigades are reportedly composed of elements of the Revolutionary Guards (Pasdaran) and the Baseej volunteer militia.

In August 1994, some Pasdaran units, rushed to quell riots in the city of Ghazvin, 150 km. west of Tehran, reportedly refused orders from the Interior Minister to intervene in the clashes, which left more than 30 people dead, 400 wounded and over 1,000 arrested.

Subsequently, senior officers in the army, air force and the usually loyal Islamic Revolutionary Guard reportedly stated that they would no longer order their troops into battle to quell civil disorder. A Pasdaran commander was among four senior army officers who are said to have sent a letter to the country's political leadership, warning the clerical rulers against "using the armed forces to crush civilian unrest and internal conflicts." In a communiqué sent to Ayatollah Ali Khameini, stated that "the role of the country’s armed forces is to defend its borders and to repel foreign enemies from its soil, not to control the internal situation or to strengthen one political faction above another." They are said to have then recommended the use of Baseej volunteers for this purpose. In a move believed to indicate a shift in the trust of the ruling clerics from the Pasdaran to the Baseej volunteer force, on 17 April 1995 Ayatollah Ali Khameini reportedly promoted a civilian, veterinary surgeon Hassan Firuzabadi, to the rank of full general, placing him above both Brigadier-General Mohsen Rezai, commander-in-chief of the Pasdaran and Brigadier General Ali Shahbazi of the regular armed forces.

602

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:15:09pm

re: #584 MandyManners

Remember the SNL skit when mourners shot into Ceauşescu's casket just to make sure he was dead?

Nope, missed that. I do remember the surreal, yet cheering, footage of throngs of people standing in the streets of Bucharest, pointing out "Securitate" sniper positions to the army (who had turned against the regime), who would then hose down those particular windows with heavy machine gun fire from BMPs. For the Ceaucescus, it was the proverbial Bad Day at Ballet School.

603

Fenway_Nation Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:15:10pm

re: #591 Killian Bundy

/TOTUS doesn't think like that, if it's he feels it's expedient, he'll offer to talk with a rock

That rock is the 324,320th most holiest site in Islam!

604

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:15:27pm

re: #595 Dirk Diggler

Mandy Manners (#568),

Mrs. Mousavi sounds like a spark plug.

She sure does. I wonder if they're gonna' crack down hard on her in particular.

605

Jim in Virginia Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:16:00pm

Howdy lizards. Apologies if already posted. Michael Totten has video. Iran on fire.

606

Last Mohican Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:16:21pm

re: #566 Rancher

I just have to recommend this link again. Writing three days ago, Ledeen certainly got this part right:

I think there’s a good chance of violence, starting Friday night. I don’t think either side is likely to take defeat gracefully. At that point, those security forces who have been so notably absent in recent days will almost certainly reappear, and attempt to reimpose “order” of the sort the demonstrations have been aimed against.

607

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:16:23pm

Dirk Diggler... as I live n' breath. What's new, DD?

608

NY Nana Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:16:40pm

Here is more on what is happening in Iran, from Winston, who cannot get through to his Mum, who has cancer, and his family, in Tehran.

609

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:16:52pm

re: #602 Occasional Reader

Nope, missed that. I do remember the surreal, yet cheering, footage of throngs of people standing in the streets of Bucharest, pointing out "Securitate" sniper positions to the army (who had turned against the regime), who would then hose down those particular windows with heavy machine gun fire from BMPs. For the Ceaucescus, it was the proverbial Bad Day at Ballet School.

Has Romania prospered since the Commies got the boot?

610

Ayeless in Ghazi Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:17:47pm

Interesting Channel 4 news report on the riots

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

611

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:18:19pm

re: #608 NY Nana

Here is more on what is happening in Iran, from Winston, who cannot get through to his Mum, who has cancer, and his family, in Tehran.

The riots have spread?

612

Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:18:23pm

re: #608 NY Nana

Here is more on what is happening in Iran, from Winston, who cannot get through to his Mum, who has cancer, and his family, in Tehran.

OMG, thanks Nana. I was just going to go to the search function to figure out the name of his blog.

613

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:18:37pm

re: #609 MandyManners

Has Romania prospered since the Commies got the boot?

From what I understand; they haven't blossomed like Czech Rep. or Poland, but they're a hell of a lot better of than they were then, for sure.

614

Lynn B. Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:19:04pm

re: #582 transient

But there is no reason to believe that Ahmadinejad is in fact the mullah's overwhelming choice. BOTH candidates were approved by the mullocracy, though some probably favored one or the other. If the election was fixed, it was probably by the Revolutionary Guards and possibly some of the factionalized mullahs. So if they back down and "investigate" and act on "the will of the people" and Mousavi gets into power...

It doesn't help us in the West.
Does it help the Iranian people? I don't know. I guess it would be a good step--giving them the feeling that their voices are heard and they can demand change. Who knows. Maybe Mousavi's local policies will benefit them.

I think you nailed it here.

615

Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:19:13pm

re: #605 Jim in Virginia

From his Flikr link it looks like the protests are continuing over night.

616

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:19:21pm

re: #613 Occasional Reader

From what I understand; they haven't blossomed like Czech Rep. or Poland, but they're a hell of a lot better of than they were then, for sure.

Any problems with radical Muslims?

617

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:19:45pm

re: #616 MandyManners

Any problems with radical Muslims?

Romania? I don't think so.

618

sattv4u2 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:20:03pm

re: #608 NY Nana

Here is more on what is happening in Iran, from Winston, who cannot get through to his Mum, who has cancer, and his family, in Tehran.

Police and security forces are directed to shoot at rioters. Regime's own militias (basijis) are out in force trying to suppress the people.

No telling how accurate the numbers will be. God help the brave ones that are openly defiant

619

shiplord kirel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:20:18pm

re: #609 MandyManners

Has Romania prospered since the Commies got the boot?

The Romanians seem to think they are better off. The communist party still exists in Romania and it stands in elections, but the populace has yet to exercise its option to put them back in power.

620

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:20:38pm

One thing we can be assured of; all of these protesters/rioters are 100% heterosexual. Because "there are no gays in Iran".

621

sattv4u2 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:21:04pm

re: #615 Killgore Trout

From his Flikr link it looks like the protests are continuing over night.

Apparantly. It's well past midnight there right now

622

shiplord kirel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:21:43pm

re: #616 MandyManners

Any problems with radical Muslims?

No, Vlad Tepes seems to have solved that problem some time ago.

623

MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:22:42pm

Chicken's done roasting. bbl

624

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:22:54pm

re: #622 shiplord kirel

No, Vlad Tepes seems to have solved that problem some time ago.

Yet his measures were considered rather draculonian...

625

Fenway_Nation Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:23:07pm

re: #609 MandyManners

Who's to say the Commies ever got the boot? There's a school of thought out there that the Romanian Communist Party sacrificed the Ceaucescus and Securitate with the hasty execution and chaos amid the popular uprising so that they could re-organize under a different name after Ceaucescu was killed........

626

Occasional Reader Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:23:42pm

re: #613 Occasional Reader

From what I understand; they haven't blossomed like Czech Rep. or Poland, but they're a hell of a lot better of than they were then, for sure.

off

627

sattv4u2 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:24:11pm

re: #624 Occasional Reader

Yet his measures were considered rather draculonian...

Outlawed silver bullets form what I recall

628

Killian Bundy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:24:31pm