Guftafs found video:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Hillary's take.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Looks like the captured a cop.

This was not an election, it was a coup run by those two pieces of shit Khamenei and Mahmoud.

World must pronounce support for Iranian people. Unlike Thugo Chavez who hurried to be the first to congratulate his buddy.

Fuck, I'm pissed off, dunno what to say.

Where the hell is Jimmy Carter?

The section of the video where the youts are chanting "We want freedom!" gave me chills.

I hope a Chinese styled crackdown doesn't happen.

Mousavi's website is still up and running, fascinating: [Link: mowj.ir...]

re: #3 Killgore Trout

Yeah, and they didn't treat him gently either.

/I know understatement.

re: #7 MrPaulRevere

Mousavi's website is still up and running, fascinating: [Link: mowj.ir...]

Site up, no new info since he and his wife voted.

Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi was arrested Saturday shortly after he was defeated at the polls by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an unofficial source reported.

According to the source, the presidential hopeful was arrested en route to the home of Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Nevertheless, it should be noted that were a number of contradictory reports from Iran on Saturday, in a large part due to the heavy restrictions imposed on the media in the Islamic Republic, in particular on foreign reporters

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

re: #9 Walter L. Newton

Site up, no new info since he and his wife voted.

See my #10

Hopefully, finally the Mad Mullahs will reap what they've spent 30 years sowing.

GOT TO REVOLUTION!

It's a little too soon to get excited about this but if there was a popular revolution and the mullahs were disposed that would solve a lot of problems for everybody.

I hope the people get serious this time

re: #12 jcm

Do you think that's a real possibility? Which side would the military take? I'm not sure if there's enough logistical support for a revolution.

A strong statement from western governments supporting freedom for the people of Iran would help immensely.

It would encourage he people and might help check the Mad Mullahs just a little.

re: #11 Nevergiveup

See my #10

I'm reading some comments about the elections at the BBC, and it's almost amazing that anyone commenting is surprised. It was as if these younger Iranians thought they had any chance at a free election.

"I am just shocked. I still cannot believe the results. There is the possibility of massive rigging. The result is quite unexpected in Iran. Everybody thought Mousavi would have a landslide victory. Unfortunately democracy for Iranians is a far-fetched ream. Today is the national mourning for democracy in Iran. With the existence of such a complicated power system in Iran and the supreme leader on top no reformation can take place in near future. Long live democracy. Morteza, Shiraz, Iran"

Did they think this was going to be fair?

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

re: #17 jcm

I think Obama made a statement yesterday praising the election. I somehow doubt he's going to back off on that.

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Well, this might actually turn out to be something. If he was en route to see the Ayatollah, maybe the Ayatollah is on his side? That might be a game changer against Mahmoud.
Obviously I'm just speculating/guessing, but anything that disrupts the Ahmadenijad regime is a good thing.

re: #14 Killgore Trout

I expected some low level street protests, but the size of the crowds is stunning.

re: #17 jcm

A strong statement from western governments supporting freedom for the people of Iran would help immensely.

It would encourage he people and might help check the Mad Mullahs just a little.

That won't happen.

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Do you think that's a real possibility? Which side would the military take? I'm not sure if there's enough logistical support for a revolution.

Regular Army would go with the people. The Pasadaran (Revolutionary Guard) with Dinnerjacket and the Mullahs. The RG is currently more powerful politically and logistically, but the Army backed by the people would be a formidable force.

re: #17 jcm

A strong statement from western governments supporting freedom for the people of Iran would help immensely.

It would encourage he people and might help check the Mad Mullahs just a little.

You're delusional. A "strong statement" would be seen as foreign meddling and rally the Iranians behind the authorities.

re: #17 jcm

A strong statement from western governments supporting freedom for the people of Iran would help immensely.

It would encourage he people and might help check the Mad Mullahs just a little.

Since when do the western democracies have balls, and confrontation with ruling elite in Tehran runs counter to Obama's philosophy of sitting in a circle and singing peace songs.

IRAN: Police attack and beat protesters

re: #15 Dekar

I hope the people get serious this time

But there is nothing to replace the current government. Even the opposition candidate was still dedicated to a Islamic theocracy. Right now they would be substituting a hard-liner for a little less than hard-liner. The Mullahs would still have all the control.

re: #22 Sharmuta

That won't happen.

I know.

*bangs head against wall*

Another golden opportunity to support Liberty against Tyranny, and we'll sit with our thumbs up our fucking asses.

re: #9 Walter L. Newton

Site up, no new info since he and his wife voted.

There is a crawler on the website that is in Farsi only, it updates constantly.

re: #21 MrPaulRevere

I expected some low level street protests, but the size of the crowds is stunning.

I kinda brushed it off this morning because the crowds looked small but it seems there might be something going on.

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Do you think that's a real possibility? Which side would the military take? I'm not sure if there's enough logistical support for a revolution.

What really matters is which side the Republican Guards take.

The regular military is cannon fodder.

Guessin' nothing's gonna come out of it 'cause nothin' ever came out of the previous riots. Would be glad to be proven wrong though. Having anyone that's semi-sane instead of the wild-eyed Ahmadinejad would be an improvement.

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

I'm reading some comments about the elections at the BBC, and it's almost amazing that anyone commenting is surprised. It was as if these younger Iranians thought they had any chance at a free election.

"I am just shocked. I still cannot believe the results. There is the possibility of massive rigging. The result is quite unexpected in Iran. Everybody thought Mousavi would have a landslide victory. Unfortunately democracy for Iranians is a far-fetched ream. Today is the national mourning for democracy in Iran. With the existence of such a complicated power system in Iran and the supreme leader on top no reformation can take place in near future. Long live democracy. Morteza, Shiraz, Iran"

Did they think this was going to be fair?

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

There is still also no proof the election was rigged. I am not saying it wasn't but it also true that the Western Media was playing up the opposition in this election and that in itself may have been only fantasy.

re: #33 Nevergiveup

There is still also no proof the election was rigged. I am not saying it wasn't but it also true that the Western Media was playing up the opposition in this election and that in itself may have been only fantasy.

Puh-lease. What proof do you need?

re: #24 Cato the Elder

You're delusional. A "strong statement" would be seen as foreign meddling and rally the Iranians behind the authorities.

Nope, one thing the young generation has been looking for is a sign of support from outside. Without that they know they'll be doomed to failure.

A statement saying we don't recognize the government as legitimate would work wonders for them.

They are smart enough to know the difference between support and meddling.

re: #19 Killgore Trout

I think Obama made a statement yesterday praising the election. I somehow doubt he's going to back off on that.

That should teach him to keep his mouth shut till he knows what's going on. It is the difference between being the President Of the United States and a State Legislator.

re: #33 Nevergiveup

There is still also no proof the election was rigged. I am not saying it wasn't but it also true that the Western Media was playing up the opposition in this election and that in itself may have been only fantasy.

That's the point I am trying to make. It all seems a fantasy that some of the Iranian people have taken to heart. Probably something to keep them busy. I agree, we don't know, but nothing is going to come of this, it can only get worst.

I left Tehran the same day as the Shah -- those were wild days -- this will be bigger.

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

I'm reading some comments about the elections at the BBC, and it's almost amazing that anyone commenting is surprised. It was as if these younger Iranians thought they had any chance at a free election.

"I am just shocked. I still cannot believe the results. There is the possibility of massive rigging. The result is quite unexpected in Iran. Everybody thought Mousavi would have a landslide victory. Unfortunately democracy for Iranians is a far-fetched ream. Today is the national mourning for democracy in Iran. With the existence of such a complicated power system in Iran and the supreme leader on top no reformation can take place in near future. Long live democracy. Morteza, Shiraz, Iran"

Did they think this was going to be fair?

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Maybe they did think it would be fair, and hence it magnifies their anger. Now maybe they will understand what they are up against if they really want freedom.

The mad mullahs would go 'Tienanmen square' in a heartbeat, no one should kid themselves.

Some commentary......

re: #38 sadhu

Bigger than a Revolution? What do you expect to happen?

re: #35 jcm

Nope, one thing the young generation has been looking for is a sign of support from outside. Without that they know they'll be doomed to failure.

A statement saying we don't recognize the government as legitimate would work wonders for them.

They are smart enough to know the difference between support and meddling.

The Shia in Iraq mistook statements of support for actual support by Bush Sr after the Gulf War. I think anything coming from Obama would be viewed as "just words".

Blog thread at the NYT with more video

re: #40 MrPaulRevere

The mad mullahs would go 'Tienanmen square' in a heartbeat, no one should kid themselves.

Yep.

They won't let go without a fight.

re: #34 guftafs

Puh-lease. What proof do you need?

And what proof do you have it was rigged?

re: #39 VioletTiger

Maybe they did think it would be fair, and hence it magnifies their anger. Now maybe they will understand what they are up against if they really want freedom.

And you are making my point. If the people themselves, inside the country, can be made to believe that this could have been a fair election, then what kind of influence can the rest of the world have. None.

re: #40 MrPaulRevere

The mad mullahs would go 'Tienanmen square' in a heartbeat, no one should kid themselves.

That's what I was thinking.

RIGGED: Iranian SELLING votes

buying votes. the man with moustache on right selling votes.

What was the highest price you sold for? 4000-5000 toman ($4-5)

they are haggling about the purchase of the vote.

Without a Persian speaker on the blog I guess we can't verify this one.

Both candidates denied Israel's right to exist. Am I supposed to feel bad for these people?

re: #46 Nevergiveup

And what proof do you have it was rigged?

The default when dealing with dictatorships is that they do not allow free elections. That's the way I see it anyway. Wouldn't be much of a dictatorship otherwise, would it?

re: #38 sadhu

I left Tehran the same day as the Shah -- those were wild days -- this will be bigger.

Why would this be bigger? What will sustain it? Tienanmen also brought people's hopes in the West up, but countered with sufficient brutality, and uprising can be clamped down.

re: #35 jcm

Nope, one thing the young generation has been looking for is a sign of support from outside. Without that they know they'll be doomed to failure.

A statement saying we don't recognize the government as legitimate would work wonders for them.

They are smart enough to know the difference between support and meddling.

OK. Maybe. Worth a try, I guess. (What do we have to lose? Dinnerjacket's respect?)

re: #40 MrPaulRevere

The mad mullahs would go 'Tienanmen square' in a heartbeat, no one should kid themselves.

No doubt. Some Iranian friends of mine have told me that the government sometimes employs Hizbollah thugs to come in and "dispose" of any dissenters. Many Iranians are rubbed the wrong way by foreign Arabs coming in and knocking off their neighbors.

I have to confess, I don't know anything about Dinnerjacket's opponent in this election. Is there any point in hoping that he somehow ends up in control? I mean, I thought all of the candidates had to be approved by the ayatollahs in advance there anyway, so that it didn't really matter who won.

re: #19 Killgore Trout

I think Obama made a statement yesterday praising the election. I somehow doubt he's going to back off on that.

"0" was beaming too.
Obama Says Iran's 'Robust' Election Debate Hopeful Sign for US-Iran Engagement
Hopey-Changey-Rainbow-Unicorn-Freedom............. ..

re: #42 Lincolntf

Bigger than a Revolution? What do you expect to happen?

chaos

Iran, Pakistan, N. Korea, Israel, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah --- it's gotta pop

re: #43 BryanS

The Shia in Iraq mistook statements of support for actual support by Bush Sr after the Gulf War. I think anything coming from Obama would be viewed as "just words".

With Obama it would be, and they'd be right to be cautious.

The Iranians also look to the French, so Sarkozy could also do or say something.

It's moments like this that require boldness, especially on the part of Iranians, bold to seize their own future and liberty. But also on the part of western leaders to say so.

re: #48 Sharmuta

That's what I was thinking.

Yep, the rioters won't get anywhere without serious muscle, such as part of the armed forces within, or the US Secretary of State promising to support the rebels.

re: #46 Nevergiveup

And what proof do you have it was rigged?

It's Iran, it's a Thugocracy.

No such thing as a fair election.

re: #56 sadhu

chaos

Iran, Pakistan, N. Korea, Israel, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah --- it's gotta pop

Why does it gotta?

re: #57 jcm

With Obama it would be, and they'd be right to be cautious.

The Iranians also look to the French, so Sarkozy could also do or say something.

It's moments like this that require boldness, especially on the part of Iranians, bold to seize their own future and liberty. But also on the part of western leaders to say so.

We could only hope--heh, hope. Imagine what a game changer such an event would be in the middle east.

re: #58 guftafs

Yep, the rioters won't get anywhere without serious muscle, such as part of the armed forces within, or the US Secretary of State promising to support the rebels.

Support the "rebels" ( who are they ) with what?

re: #43 BryanS

The Shia in Iraq mistook statements of support for actual support by Bush Sr after the Gulf War. I think anything coming from Obama would be viewed as "just words".

If there was ever a US administration that would have come to their aid, it certainly isn't this one.

Obama just made a speech a few days ago where he essentially apologized for the last time we interfered in Iran, remember?

re: #59 jcm

It's Iran, it's a Thugocracy.

No such thing as a fair election.

And if the opposition had won would that have been rigged?

re: #63 lobo91

If there was ever a US administration that would have come to their aid, it certainly isn't this one.

Obama just made a speech a few days ago where he essentially apologized for the last time we interfered in Iran, remember?

Words have consequences

re: #23 jcm

Regular Army would go with the people. The Pasadaran (Revolutionary Guard) with Dinnerjacket and the Mullahs. The RG is currently more powerful politically and logistically, but the Army backed by the people would be a formidable force.

(Can't believe I'm saying this in public discussion)
I'd love to see the Artesh at the Pasdaran's throat.

First thing would be the field-grade officers arresting the Pasdaran cronies who Short Shit put in over the past few years (cashiered the Artesh's top commanders.)

re: #61 BryanS

We could only hope--heh, hope. Imagine what a game changer such an event would be in the middle east.

Iran doesn't have to be necessarily pro-western. Just secularized enough to pull the state sponsorship from the Islamic radicals to make a huge difference.

Honestly, whatever the outcome....I'm simply not holding my breath.

The BBC video (first posted earlier) is excellent:

BBC live video of Tehran riots

The BBC video at the NYT thread is good. The reporter is saying the Iranians are chanting "Death to the government that cheats its own people".

re: #67 jcm

Iran doesn't have to be necessarily pro-western. Just secularized enough to pull the state sponsorship from the Islamic radicals to make a huge difference.

I agree but I just see NO evidence of anything like that coming down the pike

Wasn't there a movement in Iranian universities about 5 or more years ago that the government crushed? The college kids wanted more freedom but after a while the government moved in and stopped it? The movement spread from the campuses onto the streets because I remember footage of riot police battling the protesters on the streets of Tehran. Does anybody remember the details of that and what caused it?

re: #64 Nevergiveup

And if the opposition had won would that have been rigged?

First there isn't opposition. Mousavi was also picked by the Mullahs to run. The youth saw him as the better than the others and pinned a lot on him.

If Mousavi won I saw it as the Mullahs trying to reset the political table to gain time, both at home and abroad.

re: #72 chicagodudewhotrades

Wasn't there a movement in Iranian universities about 5 or more years ago that the government crushed? The college kids wanted more freedom but after a while the government moved in and stopped it? The movement spread from the campuses onto the streets because I remember footage of riot police battling the protesters on the streets of Tehran. Does anybody remember the details of that and what caused it?

The leaders were hoisted aloft with crane cables around their necks on campus.

I wish I had something intelligent to say about the elections in Iran.

re: #73 jcm

First there isn't opposition. Mousavi was also picked by the Mullahs to run. The youth saw him as the better than the others and pinned a lot on him.

If Mousavi won I saw it as the Mullahs trying to reset the political table to gain time, both at home and abroad.

Precisely.

re: #73 jcm

First there isn't opposition. Mousavi was also picked by the Mullahs to run. The youth saw him as the better than the others and pinned a lot on him.

If Mousavi won I saw it as the Mullahs trying to reset the political table to gain time, both at home and abroad.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but people here are trying to make it out like there is going to be an uprising in Iran and that the "election" was stolen? I don't see anything like even remotely happening.

re: #70 Sharmuta

The BBC video at the NYT thread is good. The reporter is saying the Iranians are chanting "Death to the government that cheats its own people".

Damn, those are some brave Iranians.

What was Mousavi's platform?

More video:

re: #62 Nevergiveup

Support the "rebels" ( who are they ) with what?

Don't know. It's hard to conceive of anyone worse that Ahmadinejad, though. Or perhaps they are.

re: #67 jcm

Iran doesn't have to be necessarily pro-western. Just secularized enough to pull the state sponsorship from the Islamic radicals to make a huge difference.

Curious how Moussavi was so threatening to the ayatollahs. Even a modest change under him--and he was approved to run anyway by them--was more than they could tolerate.

"According to Mousavi’s website, a group of employees in the Ministry of the Interior in an open letter warned that the votes have been changed and manipulated in the state election commission." [Link: niacblog.wordpress.com...]

imagine, just wanting to be able to hold hands with your girlfriend in public......
God help the Iranians.

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi was arrested Saturday shortly after he was defeated at the polls by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an unofficial source reported.

According to the source, the presidential hopeful was arrested en route to the home of Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Nevertheless, it should be noted that were a number of contradictory reports from Iran on Saturday, in a large part due to the heavy restrictions imposed on the media in the Islamic Republic, in particular on foreign reporters

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Sigh. Business as usual in Iran, I see. Maybe these riots will do something. Probably not, though. ARGH. Why don't we use our carrier presence to exert some torque on these guys?

This election is obviously fraudulent.

All the exit-polling and the pre-election polling showed Mousavi winning the election. If Dinnerjacket had as many supporters as the "official" results suggest then there would be celebrations, not riots.

The official results even show Mahmoud winning Mousavi's home province and home city by some 57%, which is laughable. Khameini has had a long-standing grudge against Mousavi and would not allow him to win, and the IRG military industrial complex with its fingers in all the economic pie didn't want their golden boy removed from office so they're all too happy to polish their jackboots and stamp out any resistance.

Iran has shut down cellphones, text messaging, facebook, etc. whereas just a month before the Revolutionary Guard promised they would not interfere with the elections, yet the night of the elections they were out in force with tear gas and riot gear.

Any regime change is up to the Iranians. They have to decided to spend the blood and sweat to obtain their freedom from the Mullahs.

No way around that one.

Silence from the west is tacit support of the status quo.

A consistent statement from all western nations would not be seen as meddling, but support for a new Iran (Persian) to move beyond the Mad Mullahs radical agenda.

twitter #iran: [Link: search.twitter.com...]

re: #73 jcm

First there isn't opposition. Mousavi was also picked by the Mullahs to run. The youth saw him as the better than the others and pinned a lot on him.

If Mousavi won I saw it as the Mullahs trying to reset the political table to gain time, both at home and abroad.

And sadly, it probably would have worked, given the utter cluelessness of the Obama administration.

Susan Rice would have been at the Security Council on Monday, proposing the lifting of sanctions against Iran.

re: #80 guftafs

Don't know. It's hard to conceive of anyone worse that Ahmadinejad, though. Or perhaps they are.

Well if your Sec of State or President of the United States you better know who exactly your supporting and what the possible consequences might be. That's all I am saying.

I wonder if this time the Iranian people are not going to take this. Not a full blown revolution, per se, but perhaps a drawn out unrest...?

[Link: tehranbureau.com...]

Lots of news here

re: #77 Nevergiveup

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but people here are trying to make it out like there is going to be an uprising in Iran and that the "election" was stolen? I don't see anything like even remotely happening.

the election means little except to piss some people off...open revolt will result in a bloodbath...nothing gained...would you forfeit your life for a lost cause at 25yrs old?

re: #81 BryanS

Curious how Moussavi was so threatening to the ayatollahs. Even a modest change under him--and he was approved to run anyway by them--was more than they could tolerate.

Since he was picked to run by the Mullahs, as an acceptable alternative. I think the threat came from the amount of support he was getting from the people. If they allowed him to win, he would have been strong enough politically to actually make some changes.

Which master he would have obeyed is another matter.

Alerts from Tehran @ Tehran Bureau - Late pictures and video.

Twitter / Tehran Search

Flickr / Iran Search - Organized by recent photos.

re: #75 amir

I wish I had something intelligent to say about the elections in Iran.

Here, I'll help you:

For decades, Iran was pro-Western and comparatively "progressive" by Middle East standards. Then after the Revolution of 1979, the repressive elements of society took over and imposed theocratic law. But the modernistic people never went away, and half the country still wants things to be the way they used to be -- part of the modern world, freedom of action and thought, accepted members of the international community again.

They are trying to throw off the yoke of religious oppression. But, as we suspect, the government is doing crooked things to make sure the reformers never get near the reins of power again.

We have no way to asses "percentages," what percent of the country really wants to stay medieval, and what percent wants to become part of the 21st century. We can only guess.

Frankly, I'm hoping for a counter-revolution to start right now. But it probably won't happen, unfortunately.

Dang these riots make reactions to American election results look sedate. Never thought I'd see the day.

Man UP President Obama.
Don't go wobley on Iran now.

re: #33 Nevergiveup

There is still also no proof the election was rigged. I am not saying it wasn't but it also true that the Western Media was playing up the opposition in this election and that in itself may have been only fantasy.

I had the same thought earlier today. The Western press, at least, doesn't have anybody on the ground over there who isn't rigidly controlled by one faction or the other. And the press itself nowadays is too stupid to report such things. Meanwhile, nearly all of the reporting appearing in Western media is being churned out by benchwarmers, biases fully operational. They were heavily invested in seeing Ahmedinijad ousted for a number of reasons, not least of which would be the ability to spin it as a "victory" for 0bama's "new" (read "lack of") foreign policy. There's a story they want to tell, and they certainly wouldn't let facts get in the way of the telling. It's never slowed them down in the past.

It seems to me entirely possible that the reporting leading up to the election was heavily skewed toward one side, and the manipulated expectations that resulted are now bearing fruit.

I'd invoke the 48 hour rule on any "news" coming out of Iran, even on the best of days.

On the other hand, the youth vote was heavily using text messaging to rally and organize themselves. Just prior to the start of voting, text messaging services for the entire country "malfunctioned," which certainly seems odd. Possible, I suppose, that the infrastructure was overwhelmed, but it's just as possible that it was a hamfisted attempt to dick around with the opposition. It would certainly be worthwhile to take a look at possible voting irregularities, but to be blunt the chances of that happening are so near zero as to be no different from it.

re: #97 IslandLibertarian

Man UP President Obama.
Don't go wobley on Iran now.

To late

re: #89 Nevergiveup

Well if your Sec of State or President of the United States you better know who exactly your supporting and what the possible consequences might be. That's all I am saying.

Absolutely. But our president doesn't see it that way. He's just excited that there was some robust debate.

I wonder how he feels about the "robust debate" that's now going on between the demonstrators on the street and the riot police.

re: #99 Nevergiveup

To late

Got Hope?

/'tis the pity.........

We can hope for it, but I'm very doubtful this is going to turn into any kind of revolution or regime change.

Faulty Election Data

Iran’s Interior Ministry has declared President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the winner of yesterday’s election. This has been rejected by all the three opponents of Mr. Ahmadinejad, Messrs Mir Hossein Mousavi, Mahdi Karroubi, and Mohsen Rezaaee.

The best evidence for the validity of the arguments of the three opponents of the President for rejecting the results declared by the Interior Ministry is the data the Ministry itself has issued. In the chart below, compiled based on the data released by the Ministry and announced by Iran’s national television, a perfect linear relation between the votes received by the President and Mir Hossein Mousavi has been maintained, and the President’s vote is always half of the President’s. The vertical axis (y) shows Mr. Mousavi’s votes, and the horizontal (x) the President’s. R^2 shows the correlation coefficient: the closer it is to 1.0, the more perfect is the fit, and it is 0.9995, as close to 1.0 as possible for any type of data.

re: #100 Last Mohican

Absolutely. But our president doesn't see it that way. He's just excited that there was some robust debate.

I wonder how he feels about the "robust debate" that's now going on between the demonstrators on the street and the riot police.

he has no clue...any point of view or tripe he spews is meaningless...most people outside of the blogs are just as clueless

re: #90 Sharmuta

I wonder if this time the Iranian people are not going to take this. Not a full blown revolution, per se, but perhaps a drawn out unrest...?

Wouldn't it be nice?

Have they blamed the Jews yet?

Obama "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Is he in some sort of alternate reality or has he score some really good ganja? The willful ignorance is just astounding.

The only thing which can overthrow the Mullahs (backed by the IRGC/Pasdaran and the para-military Baseej and Ashura Brigades) is military force.

The only other military force inside Iran is the regular Army, the Artesh.

I have read that there's no love between the Artesh and the Pasdaran (which is a well-equipped, parallel, military force.)

IF (IF) we have another Budapest, with the theocracy's tanks literally shooting in the streets, I wonder what the Artesh will do.

/see jcm's comment on the same topic up-thread

re: #97 IslandLibertarian

Man UP President Obama.
Don't go wobley on Iran now.

Or North Korea, or Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Pakistan.....but drop that hammer on Israel!

//

Remember, our POTUS said he wouldn't lower capital gains taxes EVEN if it improved revenues.
He's in his own slot.
He's the "0" he's been waiting for.

God help Iran!

re: #22 Sharmuta

That won't happen.

And there's need for more that a simple statement. How about European ambassadors leaving and cutting ties. Let's deal with everything at once. No ties until free, internationally monitored elections, Nuclear suspension and cutting off Guard's foreign arms and legs.

For good measure Obama can move a few troops closer to borders, on east and west. Much stronger than any statement. Regime won't risk fighting people and troops at the same time. They very well know which side angry people are on now too.

While some of this might seem harsh at first, just consider that now we have a completely illegitimate government with a Nuclear program, not a semi-legitimate one. Illegitimate government means world support for action.

If there ever was a time, this is it.

re: #102 Charles

We can hope for it, but I'm very doubtful this is going to turn into any kind of revolution or regime change.

Don't think so either.

BOs fantasy about Iran and the entire ME will get people killed...it is the way of the liberal mind...we should have declared war on Iran decades ago...what's the body count up to now for allowing this regime to exist?

re: #95 zombie

Frankly, I'm hoping for a counter-revolution to start right now. But it probably won't happen, unfortunately.

re: #102 Charles

We can hope for it, but I'm very doubtful this is going to turn into any kind of revolution or regime change.

That's pretty much what I'm saying -- I wish it would happen, but also concede that it is highly unlikely.

But there's always that hope!

re: #89 Nevergiveup

Well if your Sec of State or President of the United States you better know who exactly your supporting and what the possible consequences might be. That's all I am saying.

Good point.

re: #111 brucee

And there's need for more that a simple statement. How about European ambassadors leaving and cutting ties. Let's deal with everything at once. No ties until free, internationally monitored elections, Nuclear suspension and cutting off Guard's foreign arms and legs.

For good measure Obama can move a few troops closer to borders, on east and west. Much stronger than any statement. Regime won't risk fighting people and troops at the same time. They very well know which side angry people are on now too.

While some of this might seem harsh at first, just consider that now we have a completely illegitimate government with a Nuclear program, not a semi-legitimate one. Illegitimate government means world support for action.

If there ever was a time, this is it.

Who do you think is in the White House President Bush?

re: #107 MacDuff

Obama "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Is he in some sort of alternate reality or has he score some really good ganja? The willful ignorance is just astounding.

and fatal

OT I've often complained about the unnecessary comments on the First Ladies appearance, but this Republican blogger just went over the top. BTW, just in time for the MSM to take the heat of Letterman I'll bet.

Gorilla.

Mousavi Presumably Arrested, Iranian Police Battleing Demonstrators. As Many As 100 People Dead

First reports of deaths coming in. Need more confirmation.

re: #107 MacDuff

Obama "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Is he in some sort of alternate reality or has he score some really good ganja? The willful ignorance is just astounding.

Yeah, I'm "excited" by the "debate" too.

That has to be among the worst politician-double-speak I've heard in a while.

The level of incompetence with which this election was stolen rivals that of Mugabe and Zanu-PF.

And of course Hamas, Hezbollah, and Hugo Chavez have all sent congratulations to Ahmadinejad.

The reason the Mullahs even allowed Mousavi to run was because they assumed he was going to lose. When it became clear that Ahmadinejad was going to lose, Khameini and the IRG could not accept that result so they decided to rig the election and prepared their thugs for the inevitable riots.

re: #108 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The only thing which can overthrow the Mullahs (backed by the IRGC/Pasdaran and the para-military Baseej and Ashura Brigades) is military force.

The only other military force inside Iran is the regular Army, the Artesh.

I have read that there's no love between the Artesh and the Pasdaran (which is a well-equipped, parallel, military force.)

IF (IF) we have another Budapest, with the theocracy's tanks literally shooting in the streets, I wonder what the Artesh will do.

/see jcm's comment on the same topic up-thread

Regular Army would love to get back in power. They'd throw in against the RG and Mullahs for that reason if nothing more.

re: #91 Sharmuta

good link.....
Alerts from Tehran

Re Mousavi arrest: have not been able to confirm Mousavi arrest today. had a conflicting report today. tb
Journo: Panic on the streets of Tehran. Outside mass protests. Between 50-100 dead. Police on motorcycles beating people as drive by; attacking women.

re: #95 zombie

But the modernistic people never went away, and half the country still wants things to be the way they used to be -- part of the modern world, freedom of action and thought, accepted members of the international community again.

Pass the koolaid.

re: #122 jcm

Regular Army would love to get back in power. They'd throw in against the RG and Mullahs for that reason if nothing more.

any revolt turns on the RG...they are the key, obviously

Cartoon of the day: [Link: 4.bp.blogspot.com...]

re: #118 avanti

OT I've often complained about the unnecessary comments on the First Ladies appearance, but this Republican blogger just went over the top. BTW, just in time for the MSM to take the heat of Letterman I'll bet.

Gorilla.

This has nothing to do with Letterman. Letterman is a national celebrity with a national stage, whoever this other asshole is, is an unknown asshole.

re: #89 Nevergiveup

Well if your Sec of State or President of the United States you better know who exactly your supporting and what the possible consequences might be. That's all I am saying.

Good point and I'd just like to add to that that I would guess it wouldn't take that much of a stance of Sec of State to topple the Mad Mullahs, is my guess. If that would bring about a descent into anarchy for Iran that would cripple any weapons program indefinetely, fine by me. The job of the US government is to protect US lives, not Iranian lives.

re: #118 avanti

according to some...........BFD.........get over it...........
and those "some" I refer to were the ones defending Letterman..........

re: #92 albusteve

the election means little except to piss some people off...open revolt will result in a bloodbath...nothing gained...would you forfeit your life for a lost cause at 25yrs old?

Mid-teenage boys jumped on top of Russian tanks in Budapest and fired pistols through the drivers' viewports. They ran from alleys and threw Molotov coctails onto the tanks.

They knew FAR more about causes than we do.

re: #121 bbcrackmonkey

The level of incompetence with which this election was stolen rivals that of Mugabe and Zanu-PF.

And of course Hamas, Hezbollah, and Hugo Chavez have all sent congratulations to Ahmadinejad.

The reason the Mullahs even allowed Mousavi to run was because they assumed he was going to lose. When it became clear that Ahmadinejad was going to lose, Khameini and the IRG could not accept that result so they decided to rig the election and prepared their thugs for the inevitable riots.

Just making this all up on the fly are ya?

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Concrete Texas Barriers / Hard Stop are not small. They aren’t the sort of thing one has lying about in a city police station on the off chance they might be needed. Similarly, due to its weight, one normally needs Mechanical Handling Equipment to move it. Such tractors, and their drivers, are again hardly the sort of thing one has in a city police station on a regular basis. This was a pre-planned operation.

It was never meant to be a free election.

re: #5 HoosierHoops

Where the hell is Jimmy Carter?

If Carter were there he would have blessed the results. He always takes the Dictator's (or in this case the Mullah's) side.

re: #81 BryanS

Curious how Moussavi was so threatening to the ayatollahs. Even a modest change under him--and he was approved to run anyway by them--was more than they could tolerate.

My take on it is that Moussavi wasn't a threat to them, because there was never a chance he was going to win. This election was no different from the ones they have in Cuba, or what they had in Saddam's Iraq, except that they wanted the results to be a little more plausible than the 99% Saddam and Fidel got.

Basically, Moussavi was allowed to run as a "reform" candidate, and he was given a respectable number of votes to make it look like a real election.

The problem is that so many people actually voted for him that it made their "results" appear obviously faked.

Now they don't know what to do.

re: #130 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Mid-teenage boys jumped on top of Russian tanks in Budapest and fired pistols through the drivers' viewports. They ran from alleys and threw Molotov coctails onto the tanks.

They knew FAR more about causes than we do.

and they are all dead....the 1956 uprising was crushed

re: #102 Charles

We can hope for it, but I'm very doubtful this is going to turn into any kind of revolution or regime change.

I have to admit, ... I'm terribly afraid that you're right.

re: #119 Gus 802

That's the first report of casualties I've heard. Maybe they've already had their Tiananmen Square. I hope not.

koskidz have a good roundup....
Updated IV: Breaking: Ayatollas Call for New Elections, Telephone Cut Off Teheran, Mousavi Arrested

re: #124 Spare O'Lake

Pass the koolaid.

Meaning....?

What are those people on the streets rioting for, then? More oppression? They even chant in English at times (as in the BBC video), "We want freedom!"

Notice also the rioters are young, often have long hair, and look like westernized kids.

No one's drinking any Kool-Aid. Iran is majority under-25-year-olds, so a significane percentage of people there -- if not over 50% -- do want to embrace the 21st century and western culture.

re: #103 Sharmuta

I saw that graph. It's a damn straight line, which is statistically impossible. The line should be wobbly and favor Mahmoud as the rural districts with smaller populations report in first, then it should go towards Mousavi as the urban districts start finishing their counts, and there should be warbling all over the place to count for ethnic minorities casting their ballots for Mousavi and 3rd party candidates, but instead its a straight line each time showing Mahmoud with 2/3 of the vote.

The majority of Iran's population is very young and they had record turnout, which would have insured a Mousavi presidency.

Any statistician will tell you this election is rigged, stolen, bunk.

re: #138 Killgore Trout

koskidz have a good roundup....
Updated IV: Breaking: Ayatollas Call for New Elections, Telephone Cut Off Teheran, Mousavi Arrested

I think, in this rare instance, DailyKos and LGF want the same thing! A westernized, free Iran.

For whatever it's worth, someone on Twitter Tehran has reported that the Rafsanjani supporters are being rounded up.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

WOW! Not sure how much credibility this has:

[Link: tehranbureau.com...]

At the same time, the reformist newspapers were also informed that they can prepare their Saturday edition to declare Mr. Mousavi the winner, but were not allowed to use the word pirouzi (victory) in their articles, in order not to upset Mr. Ahmadinejad’s supporters. One reformist newspaper prepared its front page with the title, “People took back the flag of their country [from Mr. Ahmadinejad].”

But, just a few hours later, a center that had been set up by Mr. Mousavi in Gheytarieh (in northern Tehran) for monitoring the election and vote counting, was attacked by armed security agents. They ransacked the center, destroyed computers, and attacked the staff. Supporters of Mr. Mousavi intervened and arrested 8 security agents. The police was called to take them to prison, but the police released the attackers.

re: #140 bbcrackmonkey

I saw that graph. It's a damn straight line, which is statistically impossible. The line should be wobbly and favor Mahmoud as the rural districts with smaller populations report in first, then it should go towards Mousavi as the urban districts start finishing their counts, and there should be warbling all over the place to count for ethnic minorities casting their ballots for Mousavi and 3rd party candidates, but instead its a straight line each time showing Mahmoud with 2/3 of the vote.

The majority of Iran's population is very young and they had record turnout, which would have insured a Mousavi presidency.

Any statistician will tell you this election is rigged, stolen, bunk.

Great points.

re: #137 Lincolntf

That's the first report of casualties I've heard. Maybe they've already had their Tiananmen Square. I hope not.

I hope not either but by the looks of things this might be the case. The comments coming from the administration are despicable in light of recent events and they are in effect turning a blind eye to the reaction by the Iranian police and militias.

Haaretz are now reporting that Mousavi has been arrested.

re: #14 Killgore Trout

It's a little too soon to get excited about this but if there was a popular revolution and the mullahs were disposed that would solve a lot of problems for everybody.

It would, but we've got the wrong President for that.

re: #140 bbcrackmonkey

I saw that graph. It's a damn straight line, which is statistically impossible. The line should be wobbly and favor Mahmoud as the rural districts with smaller populations report in first, then it should go towards Mousavi as the urban districts start finishing their counts, and there should be warbling all over the place to count for ethnic minorities casting their ballots for Mousavi and 3rd party candidates, but instead its a straight line each time showing Mahmoud with 2/3 of the vote.

The majority of Iran's population is very young and they had record turnout, which would have insured a Mousavi presidency.

Any statistician will tell you this election is rigged, stolen, bunk.

of course...did anyone expect something different?...I've not followed the thread..the outcome is whatever the Mullahs want it to be..nothing new at all

re: #135 albusteve

and they are all dead....the 1956 uprising was crushed

Of course.
My comment still stands. I don't retract a word of it.

/There's a statue of Imir Nagy in Budapest today -- learn about it

re: #140 bbcrackmonkey

I think that graph is pretty good proof this election was a fraud.

re: #134 lobo91

My take on it is that Moussavi wasn't a threat to them, because there was never a chance he was going to win. This election was no different from the ones they have in Cuba, or what they had in Saddam's Iraq, except that they wanted the results to be a little more plausible than the 99% Saddam and Fidel got.

Basically, Moussavi was allowed to run as a "reform" candidate, and he was given a respectable number of votes to make it look like a real election.

The problem is that so many people actually voted for him that it made their "results" appear obviously faked.

Now they don't know what to do.

These things can become so unpredictable. Sometimes a new leader comes out from nowhere--thinking Yeltsin. This is one of those rare moments when someone sympathetic to change that the government forces are not watching can whip things into a frenzy. Will it happen, god, let's hope.

re: #138 Killgore Trout

Andrew Sullivan is also on top of it.

re: #142 Pvt Bin Jammin

For whatever it's worth, someone on Twitter Tehran has reported that the Rafsanjani supporters are being rounded up.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

HOLY SHIT!

/48 hour rule, but crossing fingers

re: #141 zombie

I think, in this rare instance, DailyKos and LGF want the same thing! A westernized, free Iran.

If Bush was still in office they'd be rooting for the mullahs.

re: #127 Nevergiveup

This has nothing to do with Letterman. Letterman is a national celebrity with a national stage, whoever this other asshole is, is an unknown asshole.

Letteman's famous, but is a comedian, not a politician like the GOP guy. Having said that, the MSM could try and make the Republican idiot famous.
My basic point was making fun of the first lady's appearance won't win any points, nor of course will making a joke in poor taste about Palin's daughter.
Sadly, Letterman's comment might be a rating boom for his
show .

I went off in search of Ahmadinejad voters today in Tehran. They are noteasy to find.

[Link: tehranbureau.com...]

And in more good news: Jimmy Carter says

"I have been in love with the Palestinian people for many years," he said Saturday, adding that this is a feeling shared by members of his family.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Sigh

re: #143 Sharmuta
wow.

Who knows the nuts and bolts of the '79 revolution? When the army threw in with the ayatollah was it the upper ranks who first threw in , or the NCO's, or the grunts? I'm just wondering becuase if this does turn into something (slight chance but maybe still a chance) and the regular army throws in with the people it would at first be a few soldiers abandoning their units and taking their personal weapons to help out the people, or whole units ordered by their CO's or whatever. I'm one of those who believe that history repeats, so this is why I'm asking for info on the '79 revolution.

re: #139 zombie

Meaning....?

What are those people on the streets rioting for, then? More oppression? They even chant in English at times (as in the BBC video), "We want freedom!"

Notice also the rioters are young, often have long hair, and look like westernized kids.

No one's drinking any Kool-Aid. Iran is majority under-25-year-olds, so a significane percentage of people there -- if not over 50% -- do want to embrace the 21st century and western culture.

What evidence is there that even a significant percentage are pro-Western.
It is sheer fancy, and excuses the complicity and support of the vast majority of Iranians for the nauseating islamofascist policies of their government.
I would love to be convinced, but will not engage in fanciful self-delusion. No offence to you or others who do believe, of course.

re: #150 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Of course.
My comment still stands. I don't retract a word of it.

/There's a statue of Imir Nagy in Budapest today -- learn about it

huh?....I didn't imply you retract anything...I wrote a paper about this subject in college

On the sidewalk outside, I approach a group of conservatively dressedwomen in black chadors, expecting that perhaps — unlike the women incolorful scarves — they might be backers of the president. “Mousavi or Ahmadinejad?” I ask, to the group of six or eight women. I am stunned, again. “Mousavi! Mousavi!” they all say, laughing and smiling. One pulls out a hidden green armband.

[Link: tehranbureau.com...]

May G-d bless and protect the people in iran fighting for democracy against the medieval savages who have brought the curse of sharia law and islamonazism upon a once great society.

re: #157 avanti

If you had just criticized the Politician that is fine but by trying to tie to Letterman you went off the rails again.

re: #159 Nevergiveup

And in more good news: Jimmy Carter says

"I have been in love with the Palestinian people for many years," he said Saturday, adding that this is a feeling shared by members of his family.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Sigh

Is that white hair, ... or a halo?

/

Again, a crowd is gathering around me, and soon two dozen people have assembled. “We are waiting for someone to revive and rebuild this country!” says someone. “We want freedom!” says another. “Freedom of speech.” A woman looks at me. “And stop the hijab police!” referring to the notorious dress-code cops who prowl Tehran. Suddenly they are all talking at once. “Ahmadinejad is a liar!”

re: #163 albusteve

huh?....I didn't imply you retract anything...I wrote a paper about this subject in college

Sorry! I must have misunderstood.

/it's all cool

re: #141 zombie

I think, in this rare instance, DailyKos and LGF want the same thing! A westernized, free Iran.

The Left in this country supported the return of Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan. They're the same folks who flock to Darfur singalongs and wear those t-shirts. Their record ain't great.

It's nice that they're supporting a westernised, free Iran in theory but, based on their record, I'd like to see what their plan is for doing something about it.

“I am here for Mousavi, because I don’t like Ahmadinejad. Actually I don’t care about Mousavi, I just want Ahmadinejad out.”

Here's the funny thing, the crux of the matter, if you will.

Iran is an oligarchy run by an alliance of clerical fascists in bed with the IRG military industrial complex. All construction contracts get awarded to shell companies under the IRG or to the IRG itself, and in return the IRG support the clerical rule of the country and the politicians that butter its bread. The political leadership will rattle the sabers to provoke responses from Israel and the US to keep the populace fearful of foreign intervention so that they'll continue to vote against their own self-interest.

But the funny part is that Mousavi was not that much of an improvement. They simply could have let him win, as he rightfully did, and then corrupted him with threats and bribes, but they screwed up. Instead they rigged the election in favor of Dinnerjacket and they proved once again that the electoral process in Iran is a joke.

re: #148 Zimriel

It would, but we've got the wrong President for that.

Don't think it would've made any difference. Correct me if I'm wrong but Didn't W Bush have at least one opportunity to support unrest in Iran during his administration?

I heard Michael Ledeen say on the radio (I think it was Prager's or Hewitt's show) that on Iran ballots the voter has to write in the name of the person they are voting for -- they can't just check something off. He says 20% of the population is illiterate. They have people at the voting places helping the illiterate vote. The "helper" can write in any name and the illiterate voter won't know what's going on. Ledeen says Ahmadinejad starts out with a 20% head start. (Couldn't find a link but did confirm that the literacy rate in Iran is 78% to 80%)

re: #143 Sharmuta

WOW! Not sure how much credibility this has:

[Link: tehranbureau.com...]

Found this.

Basijis attacked Mousavi's campaign in Gheytarie

“We are not cattle or cows or sheep to follow orders. We live in an ancient country with a proud history.” She says that nearly all women in Iran are sick of the current situation, and lowering her voice, she adds, “If Ahmadinejad wins, I predict there will be another revolution.”

re: #163 albusteve

#2 to your comment -- I'm not in a relaxed state of mind as I watch what's going on over there.

/reason, not an excuse

re: #158 Sharmuta

[tehran bureau] I went off in search of Ahmadinejad voters today in Tehran. They are noteasy to find.

That is because he went off in Tehran and did not visit any other parts of the nation.

Faraz Khaveri, 25, whoworks in a publishing house nearby, says, “This is the neighborhood ofAhmadinejad, but there is massive support for Mousavi here.” Mohammad Reza, 22, a student at Sadr University in T ehran, says, “The situation in Iran is critical. And all Ahmadinejad talks about is Israel!”

re: #174 HelloDare

I'm guessing the illiterates were in favor of Ahmadenijad anyway.

re: #178 Zimriel

That is because he went off in Tehran and did not visit any other parts of the nation.

Probably absolutely correct.

Well getting ready for the Next Yankee-Met game. I wonder who will be at second for the mets?

perfect time for Israel to whack Iran...if the US would just get on board it could tip the balance...

re: #161 chicagodudewhotrades

Who knows the nuts and bolts of the '79 revolution? When the army threw in with the ayatollah was it the upper ranks who first threw in , or the NCO's, or the grunts? I'm just wondering becuase if this does turn into something (slight chance but maybe still a chance) and the regular army throws in with the people it would at first be a few soldiers abandoning their units and taking their personal weapons to help out the people, or whole units ordered by their CO's or whatever. I'm one of those who believe that history repeats, so this is why I'm asking for info on the '79 revolution.

The enlisted draftees threw in, the officer (staff and above) corp that didn't skeddadle for the most part got the blindfold and wall.

The Army if it starts to break will go pretty completely and quickly.

Rafsanjani, the president of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has resigned from his position in protest.

re: #156 Killgore Trout

If Bush was still in office they'd be rooting for the mullahs.

Even Al Jazeera had some concerns

"Breakdown of the vote in individual districts was still patchy, but there were a few results that raised eyebrows.

Incumbent victorious

Ahmadinejad had apparently taken the northwestern city of Tabriz with some ease.

Tabriz is the heart of East Azerbaijan, and Azeris are among the tightest ethnic groups in the country, unfailingly voting along ethnic lines.

In the 2005 presidential election, Mohsen Mehralizadeh was a largely unknown and wholly unsuccessful candidate. He came in seventh and last, and yet he still won the Azeri vote in the Azerbaijani provinces. Mir Hossein Mousavi is an Azeri from Tabriz.

Elsewhere, Mehdi Karroubi failed to take his home state of Lorestan; in Khuzestan, Mohsen Rezai, a local scion, was expecting at least two million votes. His total for the entire country has failed to breach one million.

And with each updated count, Ahmadinjad's lead did not waver from a very stable range of 66-69 per cent, irrespective of which districts were reporting.

After 3am [22:30 GMT], the interior ministry went quiet for the night. Out on the streets, some groups of youths were driving the streets in celebration. But not 69 per cent of them."

Link.

TEHRAN: Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a former president and head of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has given resignation from his office. [Link: www.geo.tv...] A stunning development IF true.

re: #180 amir

I'm guessing the illiterates were in favor of Ahmadenijad anyway.

Yes. The poor are part of his power base.

/and, if what I've read on a major newpaper's website is true, a hive of Twelver beliefs

re: #187 MrPaulRevere

TEHRAN: Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a former president and head of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has given resignation from his office. [Link: www.geo.tv...] A stunning development IF true.

Things seem to be happening.

The right wing blogs are pretty much silent on this one. It gets a mention from Instapundit but that's about it.

re: #183 albusteve

perfect time for Israel to whack Iran...if the US would just get on board it could tip the balance...

From your mouth to God's Obama's ear.

re: #185 bbcrackmonkey

Rafsanjani, the president of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has resigned from his position in protest.

Woooooo!

This could get interesting!

re: #162 Spare O'Lake

What evidence is there that even a significant percentage are pro-Western.
It is sheer fancy, and excuses the complicity and support of the vast majority of Iranians for the nauseating islamofascist policies of their government.
I would love to be convinced, but will not engage in fanciful self-delusion. No offence to you or others who do believe, of course.

They are pro-western in a very general sense. They want economic and personal freedoms they don't have, they see that in the west.

They're sick and tired of what they have, they see want they want west, not south. They are Persian, not Islamic in out look and that is very different form the rest of the ME.

re: #86 jcm

Silence from the west is tacit support of the status quo.

Silence from the Mossad is tacit support of the status quo?

re: #190 Killgore Trout

The right wing blogs are pretty much silent on this one. It gets a mention from Instapundit but that's about it.

Because hating muslims is more important.

re: #192 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It certainly seems that the impact has gone well beyond the street corners and into the corridors of power.
God I hope something good comes of all of this.

re: #183 albusteve

perfect time for Israel to whack Iran...if the US would just get on board it could tip the balance...

I disagree. An Israeli attack now would create a kneejerk patriotic reaction among elements which (otherwise) might support the reformers.

All things being equal, I say ... keep our fingers on the triggers and see what transpires.

re: #195 Sharmuta

I also think that they haven't figured out how to spin this against Obama yet.

re: #176 Sharmuta

“We are not cattle or cows or sheep to follow orders. We live in an ancient country with a proud history.” She says that nearly all women in Iran are sick of the current situation, and lowering her voice, she adds, “If Ahmadinejad wins, I predict there will be another revolution.”

We can only hope. On the other hand, it can be a double-edged sword; reveolution is the way they got here in the first place. A secular revolution would be just the ticket.

re: #184 jcm

The enlisted draftees threw in, the officer (staff and above) corp that didn't skeddadle for the most part got the blindfold and wall.

The Army if it starts to break will go pretty completely and quickly.

As for the NCOs, I'm not an expert on the Iranian military, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine they're much like any of the other middle eastern ones, meaning they don't really have an NCO corps. Some of the draftees decide they like the military after their term is up, so they reenlist and are made sergeants, but their main function is to instill discipline through beatings and the like.

re: #195 Sharmuta

Because hating muslims is more important.

ouch!...that's probably exactly true...I'm an underdog rooter whatever the color...GO PERSIANS!

re: #198 Killgore Trout

I also think that they haven't figured out how to spin this against Obama yet.

I don't think that is fair to say.

re: #194 itellu3times

Silence from the Mossad is tacit support of the status quo?

Heh! That would be rich....

If the mullahs get a necktie party, Israel might get to relax just a bit.

re: #196 Lincolntf

It certainly seems that the impact has gone well beyond the street corners and into the corridors of power.
God I hope something good comes of all of this.

Me too, although I'm not sure what that might be.

I find myself wondering who's keeping an eye on all their fissionable material during all this. And thinking about how much scarier this would be if they already had nuclear missiles constructed and ready to launch.

re: #197 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I disagree. An Israeli attack now would create a kneejerk patriotic reaction among elements which (otherwise) might support the reformers.

All things being equal, I say ... keep our fingers on the triggers and see what transpires.

OTOH the population may see it as havoc brought upon their country by the Mullahs....toss up

re: #183 albusteve

perfect time for Israel to whack Iran...if the US would just get on board it could tip the balance...

O is too busy enjoying "the robust debate".

Is Code Pink and ANSWER there?

re: #201 albusteve

ouch!...that's probably exactly true...I'm an underdog rooter whatever the color...GO PERSIANS!

You think spencer or gellar care about the Iranian people? None of the fascist apologists will cover this story because they don't care.

re: #200 lobo91

As for the NCOs, I'm not an expert on the Iranian military, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine they're much like any of the other middle eastern ones, meaning they don't really have an NCO corps. Some of the draftees decide they like the military after their term is up, so they reenlist and are made sergeants, but their main function is to instill discipline through beatings and the like.

A Professional NCO corp is almost exclusively a western military construct and a distinct advantage.

re: #206 MacDuff

O is too busy enjoying "the robust debate".

bunker busters are pretty robust

re: #193 jcm

They are pro-western in a very general sense. They want economic and personal freedoms they don't have, they see that in the west.

They're sick and tired of what they have, they see want they want west, not south. They are Persian, not Islamic in out look and that is very different form the rest of the ME.

I hear you, but it is an Islamic Republic under shariah law.
Where is the real evidence that the regime lacks popular support? Should we simply take the word of expatriate dissidents and political pundits?
Today we are witnessing something, but who the heck really knows what it is?

re: #187 MrPaulRevere

TEHRAN: Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a former president and head of the Expediency Council - Iran's top political arbitration body, has given resignation from his office. [Link: www.geo.tv...] A stunning development IF true.

If Rafsanjani got out in front of this, he'd be one of those who could foment a change in government.

re: #204 Last Mohican

Great point. If they had a working nuke this would be even crazier and far more dangerous.

re: #180 amir

I'm guessing the illiterates were in favor of Ahmadenijad anyway.

He is in fact extremely popular in the rural areas and countryside for both providing aid and charitable donations - even out of his own pocket.

re: #207 BigPapa

Is Code Pink and ANSWER there?

They probably couldn't get their giant paper mache heads on the plane......

re: #196 Lincolntf

It certainly seems that the impact has gone well beyond the street corners and into the corridors of power.
God I hope something good comes of all of this.

If Rafsanjani has well and truly "come on board", that might be a tipping factor. He has clout inside the theocracy.

It also indicates that factions might be at work here, and it's good if the mullahs are NOT unified.

re: #208 Sharmuta

You think spencer or gellar care about the Iranian people? None of the fascist apologists will cover this story because they don't care.

be interesting to see what they say should this thing escalate further....they can't stay silent can they?

re: #209 jcm

A Professional NCO corp is almost exclusively a western military construct and a distinct advantage.

Absolutely.

/USAR Sergeant Major

re: #211 Spare O'Lake

I hear you, but it is an Islamic Republic under shariah law.
Where is the real evidence that the regime lacks popular support? Should we simply take the word of expatriate dissidents and political pundits?
Today we are witnessing something, but who the heck really knows what it is?

because men want free will...it's genetic

re: #202 Nevergiveup

I was being partially snarky. However, this could potentially be a very good thing and could make Obama's job a lot easier. Not everybody is going to be happy to see that happen.

re: #212 BryanS

That story seems to be very thinly sourced, many sites are just repeating one another.

re: #217 albusteve

be interesting to see what they say should this thing escalate further....they can't stay silent can they?

Of course they can--they're morons :D

re: #205 albusteve

OTOH the population may see it as havoc brought upon their country by the Mullahs....toss up

That too, but Persian pride is pretty danged strong.

re: #217 albusteve

be interesting to see what they say should this thing escalate further....they can't stay silent can they?

They might get excited about it if they get a chance to dust off their morbid concern mask.

re: #95 zombie

Here, I'll help you:

For decades, Iran was pro-Western and comparatively "progressive" by Middle East standards. Then after the Revolution of 1979, the repressive elements of society took over and imposed theocratic law. But the modernistic people never went away, and half the country still wants things to be the way they used to be -- part of the modern world, freedom of action and thought, accepted members of the international community again.
...
Frankly, I'm hoping for a counter-revolution to start right now. But it probably won't happen, unfortunately.

To "help" further, the "progressive" elements of Iran were mostly Communists and third-world Nehru-type national socialists. They opposed the Shah because they wanted a caudillo who would throw his weight around against the US on the world stage. That is why that thug Mossadegh was a martyr to those guys. That is also why they allied with Khomeini and joined in enthusiastically with the revolutionary-terror fun, like taking an embassy hostage.

I mentioned on the earlier, "pathetic" flamewar that I agreed with Spare O'Lake on some of his points. Where he is has a point, IMO, is that the Iranian progressives and Westernisers of the 1970s got what they deserved. (When Communists and Islamists fight, in principle I wish both sides the best of luck.) But, that was that generation.

Iran has now a new adult generation which is not to blame for its parents' missteps. Whatever support we can give them, we must.

re: #220 Killgore Trout

I was being partially snarky. However, this could potentially be a very good thing and could make Obama's job a lot easier. Not everybody is going to be happy to see that happen.

Obama's job, whazzat?

re: #217 albusteve

I get the feeling that Spencer, despite being an "expert", probably knows nothing about Iran politics and the situation there. He's probably learning just now as we are.

re: #209 jcm

A Professional NCO corp is almost exclusively a western military construct and a distinct advantage.

That's my im-Prussian too.

/damn! I need a laugh here!

re: #227 Killgore Trout

He's resumed his obsession with the Balkans.

re: #226 itellu3times

Obama's job, whazzat?

It's to watch out for anti-Muslim attitudes, he said so?

re: #223 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Whatever it's about, it ain't about the Shah.
I hope it's a 'what goes around comes around ' moment for the mullahs.

re: #227 Killgore Trout

I get the feeling that Spencer, despite being an "expert", probably knows nothing about Iran politics and the situation there. He's probably learning just now as we are.

bob and pam won't bother until there is a dead muslim to use so they can appear to care.

re: #209 jcm

A Professional NCO corp is almost exclusively a western military construct and a distinct advantage.

Which is why our military and other nations with a professional NCO class outperform others without one on the battlefield

re: #211 Spare O'Lake

I hear you, but it is an Islamic Republic under shariah law.
Where is the real evidence that the regime lacks popular support? Should we simply take the word of expatriate dissidents and political pundits?
Today we are witnessing something, but who the heck really knows what it is?

Let's say I and my family hear from inside Iran, we lived there for 10 years.

Beyond that I'm not saying anything. People I know personally died in Iran for their religion and links to the West.

A number of years ago the RG sent agents to this country to "disrupt" some of those lines of communication fortunately the FBI was on to them and busted them. It made local news but the scope of what was happening never did.

Dissented in Iran is widespread, and ruthlessness suppressed. The pot has been simmering for a long time, the mullahs have been screwing the lid tighter.

Whether this is the lid blowing off or just a little release of pressure remains to be seen.

This degree of open corruption will not bode well for Iran. Its economy is already a basket case. This will only add to the mess.

Are any of the "live" links from earlier still broadcasting live? I keep getting loops of the same scenes (all in daylight) and it's gotta be past midnight over there. I wish the cable TV channels were able to show live coverage.

The White House is probably trying to figure out how they can take credit for the riots if the regime in Iran if overthrown. They should relax. The press will do it for them.

Ahmadinejad speaks to the Iranian people

re: #230 Nevergiveup

It's to watch out for anti-Muslim attitudes, he said so?

He is the Chocolate Caliph.

In his own mind.

re: #235 pat

This degree of open corruption will not bode well for Iran. Its economy is already a basket case. This will only add to the mess.

nationwide strikes?...the Mullahs surely can't agree on everything....drive a wedge

re: #234 jcm

Interesting! (I won't ask further questions.)

Thanks.

re: #236 Lincolntf

You can try some stuff here....Iran TV
I haven't found anything that works yet.

re: #213 Lincolntf

Great point. If they had a working nuke this would be even crazier and far more dangerous.

And now that we're talking about it, Pakistan, a country that does have fully functional nuclear weapons, is on the brink of instability that could get far worse than this, very quickly.

And unlike Iran, whose population is relatively educated, civilized, and moderate, the majority of Pakistanis are backwards, hateful, and firmly in favor of extremist violence. There are not many Pakistani hands in which nukes should be trusted.

This is getting crazy:

Yoo open to being sued by Padilla.

Insane.... using the court system to for vindictive purposes and to play politics.

re: #235 pat

This degree of open corruption will not bode well for Iran. Its economy is already a basket case. This will only add to the mess.

They have the makings of a robust economy, if the thugs get they're hands out of the till and let people do what comes naturally.

re: #238 Killgore Trout

Ahmadinejad speaks to the Iranian people

When did a Member's Only jacket become the official garb of Ahmadinejad?

re: #198 Killgore Trout

I also think that they haven't figured out how to spin this against Obama yet.

Obama's performance over this mess has been craven, and saying that doesn't require any "spin". His "robust debate" blather harks back to his mealymouthedness last year over the Georgia invasion. If the right wing blogs wanted to attack Obama over this, they could, and they'd be justified in doing it.

I think Sharmuta is closer the mark - the right wing blogs are less publicly fond of Asians now than they claimed to be six or seven years ago.

I am gaining more respect for the people of Iran.

re: #247 Zimriel

Obama's performance over this mess has been craven, and saying that doesn't require any "spin". His "robust debate" blather harks back to his mealymouthedness last year over the Georgia invasion. If the right wing blogs wanted to attack Obama over this, they could, and they'd be justified in doing it.

I think Sharmuta is closer the mark - the right wing blogs are less publicly fond of Asians now than they claimed to be six or seven years ago.

Asians?

re: #246 HelloDare

When did a Member's Only jacket become the official garb of Ahmadinejad?

Did The One send him a gift card?

//

re: #247 Zimriel

Gee- there were plenty of those blog widgets all over the place a few years ago about supporting democracy in Iran. So where are those folks now?

re: #219 albusteve

because men want free will...it's genetic

*blink*
*sigh*

re: #250 jcm

Did The One send him a gift card?

//

Do they still make Members Own ?

re: #246 HelloDare

1985....and still standing proud.

re: #253 Nevergiveup

Do they still make Members Own ?

Heck if I know,

I want to know what Jimma Carter has to say about all this.

Hillary: "The elections were fair before they were unfair".

I dig America...
and all of our best qualities are expressed right here on this blog

re: #256 voirdire

I want to know what Jimma Carter has to say about all this.

"Why are the people protesting the results of their own election? I don't understand."