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 RetweetWhat Right Wing Extremists?

US News | Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 10:43:03 am PDT

Two of the suspects in a murderous home invasion in Arizona have ties to a Washington state anti-immigration group called Minutemen American Defense.

Jason Eugene Bush, 34, Shawna Forde, 41, and Albert Robert Gaxiola, 42, have been charged with two counts each of first-degree murder and other charges, said Sheriff Clarence Dupnik of Pima County, Ariz.

The trio are alleged to have dressed as law enforcement officers and forced their way into a home about 10 miles north of the Mexican border in rural Arivaca on May 30, wounding a woman and fatally shooting her husband and their 9-year-old daughter. Their motive was financial, Dupnik said.

“The husband who was murdered has a history of being involved in narcotics and there was an anticipation that there would be a considerable amount of cash at this location as well as the possibility of drugs,” Dupnik said.

Forde is the leader of Minutemen American Defense, a small border watch group, and Bush goes by the nickname “Gunny” and is its operations director, according to the group’s Web site. She is from Everett, Wash., has recently been living in Arizona and was once associated with the better known and larger Minuteman Civil Defense Corps.

A statement attributed to officers of Forde’s group and posted on its Web site on Saturday extended condolences to the victims’ families and said the group doesn’t condone such acts and will cooperate with law enforcement.

“This is not what Minutemen do,” said member Chuck Stonex, who responded to an e-mail from The Associated Press sent through the Web site. “Minutemen observe, document and report. This is nothing more than a cold-hearted criminal act, and that is all we want to say.”

The assailants planned to leave no one alive, Dupnik said at a press conference in Tucson on Friday. He said Forde was the ringleader.

That DHS report on right wing extremism keeps getting more relevant. Here’s the website of Minutemen American Defense, complete with rants about “subhuman Mexicans.”

UPDATE at 6/14/09 11:16:02 am:

Apparently, the motivation for the crime was to get money and drugs to fund their anti-immigration group:

Two of the three people arrested in connection with the May 30 murders of an Arivaca man and his daughter headed up a splinter Minuteman group, and were looking for drugs and money to fund their efforts to keep illegal immigrants and drug runners out of the country, sheriff’s officials said.

UPDATE at 6/14/09 12:41:38 pm:

More details at the Everett Herald Net, where they confirm that the motive was to rob the victims of money and drugs to fund their group.

EVERETT — Shawna Forde believed organized criminals operating at the border between the U.S. and Mexico posed one of the greatest threats to the nation’s security.

Drug traffickers. Human smugglers.

The Everett woman was convinced they were helping terrorists sneak radioactive “dirty bomb” materials into the U.S. She feared the federal government was in league with the United Nations and allowing what amounted to an illegal-immigrant invasion.

In a May 20 “border report” posted on the Web site of her Minutemen American Defense group, Forde warned readers that soon “you will walk out your door and think you were just transplanted into Mexico.”

Forde spent much of the past three years scouring the Arizona desert for signs of criminals.

Now, she finds herself behind bars, the focus of a double murder investigation in Arizona with potential connections to a home invasion robbery in California and other crimes in Washington.

Pima County, Ariz., detectives on Friday described Forde leading a plot to finance her Minutemen activities by robbing suspected drug traffickers. She and two others are charged with a fatal May 30 home invasion at a suspected drug trafficker’s home in Arivaca, Ariz.

Raul Flores, 29, and his daughter, Brisenia, 9, were killed when a group of armed people, including a woman, forced their way into the home. The child’s mother traded gunfire with the attackers. She survived but remains hospitalized with gunshot wounds.

The Arivaca robbery was meant to raise money to fuel Forde’s group, investigators said.

Detectives believe there are additional suspects and are aggressively continuing their investigation.

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1 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:45:07am

Goddamn vermin.

2 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:45:18am

In-bound hate mail in ... 2 ... 1 ...

3 brookly red  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:46:28am

They aren't they the same as "The Minutemen" the border watch group, are they?

4 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:46:35am

re: #2 pre-Boomer Marine brat
There will be a shitload of it. All very articulate and cogently thought out!///

5 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:46:37am

A thug is a thug is a thug. Skinhead or jihadi... they all suck.

6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:46:39am

These mother f*cking snakes in my mother f*cking country...

7 Syrah  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:47:19am

Does Arizona have the Death Penalty? These two guys sure look deserving.

8 talon_262  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:47:23am

re: #1 pingjockey

Goddamn vermin.

Couldn't have said it better myself...I hope the perps get thrown under the jail to rot for the rest of their natural lives.

9 pat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:47:37am

While this is true, it has nothing to do with terrorism. The gang was after drug money.

10 flyovercountry  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:47:59am

Bush goes by the nickname “Gunny”

Please somebody, tell me this does not think what I think it means, and that it is not true!

11 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:48:11am

But the DHS memo was vague! It didn't mention these folks by name! Evil is evil and knows no party affiliation! It was badly written! It smeared returning soldiers! It didn't help law enforcement because the crimes still happened!

//hurt feelings

12 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:48:12am

People like this don't oppose illegal immigration- they oppose all immigration.

Damn bigots- go join the KKK or the nazis.

13 pink freud  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:48:52am

re: #3 brookly red

They aren't they the same as "The Minutemen" the border watch group, are they?

No they aren't. This story broke a few days ago and from all I've seen, they seem to be some sort of radical vigilante type group (a picture of the female member arrested reminds me of Lynndie England). IIRC, the legit minuteman group has released a statement clarifying their separateness.

14 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:50:16am
That DHS report on right wing extremism keeps getting more relevant ...

Yet some will continue yelling the erroneous (to say the least) memes that the report "slandered all veterans", and "ignored Islamist terrorism".

/Obama Derangement Syndrome at its "finest"

15 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:50:21am

The trio are alleged to have dressed as law enforcement officers

Charles, this whole group is detestable. And one of the worst things is their decision to pose as law enforcement officers.

I don't know if part of their agenda is to undermine confidence in our police forces, but if not, they sure could have fooled me. When we get to the point where an officer pulls us over, knocks on our door, or approaches us on the street, and our first thought is "I wonder if he's really a policeman" - we're in real trouble.

16 brookly red  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:50:25am

re: #13 pink freud

Thanks. I didn't think so but similar names...

17 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:50:33am

re: #10 flyovercountry
The only people who should be allowed the nic "gunny" are usn gunnersmates or gunnery sgts. NOBODY ELSE!

18 pat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:50:33am

re: #13 pink freud

And she was well known to the police , who described her as a "psychopath". A description that is apt, given the intentional murder of a 9 year old.

19 pink freud  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:51:35am

re: #16 brookly red

Thanks. I didn't think so but similar names...

Criminal opportunists with a psuedo-legit cover and a vulnerable target population. Criminals.

20 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:52:11am

Joel Rosenberg on Cspan now, author of Inside the Revolution:
how the followers of Jesus, Jihad, and Jefferson are battling to dominate the ME and transform the world....

21 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:52:40am

Jason Eugene Bush, 34, (Name of British origin)
Shawna Forde, 41, (Name of Irish origin?)
Albert Robert Gaxiola, 42 (Name of Spanish origin)...

Hmmm. They hate immigrants?

22 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:52:47am

re: #13 pink freud

Won't matter. In time, ANYONE who even tilts slightly right is going to be tarred with this brush.
And that's something I'd be enthralled to be proven wrong on.

23 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:53:26am

Just more ammo for hyperbolic screeds from the likes of Frank Rich.

24 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:53:33am

re: #1 pingjockey

Goddamn vermin.

If you mean those Mexicans who violate our border to conduct attacks on OUR soil, I would agree with you.

25 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:53:49am

OT:
Netanyahu's speech was perfect.
"Hamastan" - perfect
No right of return - perfect
United Jerusalem in Israel - perfect
No negotiation with Hamas - perfect
No negotiations until Palis recognize Israel as a Jewish State - perfect
Pali state will be demilitarized, with no army, no control of its air space and no ability to import missiles - perfect
Perfect.

26 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:53:52am
We will expose and report what we know and find, we will recruit the serious and train the revolutionist, time for words have passed the time for bravery and conviction are now.

-Shawna Forde

This mentality seems to be growing, and it's quite frightening. We don't need a revolution to fix our problems. We need to enforce the law.

27 flyovercountry  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:53:54am

Re: #17 pingjockey

The only people who should be allowed the nic "gunny" are usn gunnersmates or gunnery sgts. NOBODY ELSE!

I was thinking Gunnery Sgt. I just hope that this is not true. I would hate to see such a fine group of people dis-honored in any way.

28 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:54:33am

re: Spare O'Lake

OT:
Netanyahu's speech was perfect.
"Hamastan" - perfect
No right of return - perfect
United Jerusalem in Israel - perfect
No negotiation with Hamas - perfect
No negotiations until Palis recognize Israel as a Jewish State - perfect
Pali state will be demilitarized, with no army, no control of its air space and no ability to import missiles - perfect
Perfect.

And now, will he say the same to الرئيس أوباما?

29 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:54:37am

re: #24 Macker

He may have meant the men who invaded the house and killed some people too.

30 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:54:42am

re: #8 talon_262

Or thrown in a cage in the broiling AZ sun.
[Link: www.uslaw.com...]

31 brookly red  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:54:45am

re: #19 pink freud

Criminal opportunists with a psuedo-legit cover and a vulnerable target population. Criminals.

I see what your saying, but criminals are sometimes not so vulnerable if you know what I mean.

32 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:55:49am

A criminal is a criminal. Their politics are incidental to their crimes.Roeder, these guys, Squeaky Fromme, Ayers and Doerhn would have found an excuse for their actions."Activism" is an easy cover.

33 pink freud  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:55:50am

re: #24 Macker

If you mean those Mexicans who violate our border to conduct attacks on OUR soil, I would agree with you.

Drugs, too. That's what this was about. I don't see the right-wing connection.

34 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:56:00am
As your rights are slowly stripped away and you walk out your door look right and left and know you are the only true American standing on your block until your light is extinguished and all true Americans are extinguished into silence and slavery of a near future.

-Shawna Forde

No True Scotsman American!

35 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:56:16am

re: #30 tradewind

Because they deserve it, and the poor prostitute... not so much...

36 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:56:37am

re: #24 Macker
Nope. I meant the murderers. But Goddamn Vermin can include those you mentioned. I need to find the article in the local paper. Did you know there is an Alien Firearm Permit in WA state? I didn't. About blew a gasket when I saw that.

37 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:56:45am

re: #26 Sharmuta

-Shawna Forde

This mentality seems to be growing, and it's quite frightening. We don't need a revolution to fix our problems. We need to enforce the law.

Repeating that - WE NEED TO ENFORCE THE LAW.
The current laws need to be enforced. Exactly.

imo - the longer the government FAILS to enforce its own laws, the more temptation there is for some citizens to take the law into their own hands and form these criminal groups.

38 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:57:19am

re: #29 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I did!

39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:58:12am

re: #38 pingjockey

Sarcasm intended...

40 Cygnus  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:58:23am

re: #20 tradewind

Joel Rosenberg on Cspan now, author of Inside the Revolution:
how the followers of Jesus, Jihad, and Jefferson are battling to dominate the ME and transform the world....

Rosenberg is awesome. If you haven't read any of his fiction, you should. Great stuff.

41 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:59:07am

re: #39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
OOPS! Not tracking well today.

42 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:59:25am

re: #40 Cygnus

The shocka is that he's speaking at San Diego State.

43 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:59:41am

re: #28 Macker

And now, will he say the same to الرئيس أوباما?

I think he just enunciated Israeli policy to the whole world.
The Palis have apparently just now reacted by accusing Bibi of sabotaging the peace process - SURPRISE!

44 Syrah  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 10:59:46am

re: #7 Syrah

Three. (pimf)

45 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:00:06am

re: #37 reine.de.tout

Repeating that - WE NEED TO ENFORCE THE LAW.
The current laws need to be enforced. Exactly.

imo - the longer the government FAILS to enforce its own laws, the more temptation there is for some citizens to take the law into their own hands and form these criminal groups.

And the government not enforcing the law coupled with vigilantism both lead to the law being meaningless. This is what is happening in Europe, and we mustn't allow this here.

46 Cygnus  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:00:08am

re: #42 tradewind

The shocka is that he's speaking at San Diego State.

Knock me over with a feather.

47 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:00:42am

"Shawna Forde" site:minutemenamericandefense.org -- Google search.

Be sure and click on the cached links. Rather weird stuff.

48 Racer X  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:01:01am

A thread on Netanyahu's speech would have been nice. 3 racist murdering assholes? Not so much.

49 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:02:08am

"She's someone who even within the anti-immigration movement has been labeled as unstable," Levin said. "She was basically forced out of another anti-immigrant group, the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, and then founded her own organization."

Ya think? Good on them. The Minutemen need to come out strong and fast on this.

It is exactly what many have been wanting from moderate Muslims.

50 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:02:35am

re: #33 pink freud

Drugs, too. That's what this was about. I don't see the right-wing connection.

Yeah, these murders seem to be about drugs.

51 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:03:32am

re: #45 Sharmuta

And the government not enforcing the law coupled with vigilantism both lead to the law being meaningless. This is what is happening in Europe, and we mustn't allow this here.

Well, I would agree.
But I'm trying to figure out the "vigilantism" angle in this particular story. It seems to be about drugs.

52 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:04:12am

"To just kill a 9-year-old girl because she might be a potential witness to me is just one of the most despicable acts that I have heard of."

Nothing to do with extremism. Everything to do drug crime.

53 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:04:46am

Please forgive the cross-post OT (from the prior thread)

Breaking

From Tehran Bureau's Sunday Iran Alerts

the press is saying “tehran was calm today” — not so. it was in the daytime but since 5pm things have heated up. i’ve talked to friends in different neighborhoods; in Sa’adat Abad and Yousef Abad and Zafar — all over it is “ghogha.” My mom also was in Parkway two hours ago (its 9:30 pm) and there were mass demos and people handing out Mousavi’s latest bayanieh as fliers … and tear gas and attacks by “truckfuls” of Guard

... and ...

From Iranian American: I can confirm that the city of Gorgan where my grand mother live, there have been clashes between the police and the people on proportions similar to Tehran.
I also talked to a friend in Karaj. He lives in Pakdasht a suburb of Karaj and he confirmed that the town is out of the control of the police. His sister-in-law lives in Qom and she confirmed that there were clashes between the police and people around Musavi’s campaign headquarter in Qom.

54 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:04:49am

re: #48 Racer X

I think this is important. We have bigots infiltrating an otherwise worthy cause of enforcing our border. This is what happened with the "counter-jihad". Bigots are now infesting these movements, and it's wrong, it's bad, and it delegitimizes these causes.

These bigots are doing more to help the left demonize this issue more than any one else. It's people like these killers that taint the rest of us concerned about the border and who we're letting into this country.

55 brookly red  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:04:53am

re: #50 reine.de.tout

Yeah, these murders seem to be about drugs.

/"weather it be cocaine, herion or hash ya got carry weapons cause ya always deal in cash"...

56 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:05:03am

Mexicans, from the President on down, seem to believe they have some kind of birthright to US residency and all the benefits of US citizenship - without the requirement to comply with immigration and citizenship laws.
Why is that?

57 realwest  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:05:30am

re: #45 Sharmuta
Spot on Comment Sharmta.

58 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:05:42am
even within the anti-immigration movement

re: #49 BigPapa

Just a little tinge of anti - anti-immigration movement bias there. As if no one within that movement could be sane?
Just saying.
Or asking...

59 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:05:44am

Please?Let's move on.

60 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:06:52am

re: #50 reine.de.tout

Yeah, these murders seem to be about drugs.

Black markets create crime.

61 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:06:59am

Here they are at the Phoenix, Arizona "tea party:"

[Link: minutemenamericandefense.org...]

62 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:07:08am
63 Racer X  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:07:28am

re: #54 Sharmuta

Sorry I disagree. There are bigger fish. These 3 are just assholes. I'm not really looking at life in a "Left vs. Right" paradigm any more.

64 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:07:39am
65 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:07:48am

re: #52 poteen

Wanna take a gander at which drug is at the center of this crime? Hmm...

66 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:07:57am

re: #53 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah, CNN has Christianne Imabore reporting live, and it didn't look at all calm to me. Kids running for their lives after tossing stuff.

67 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:08:08am

re: #54 Sharmuta

I think this is important. We have bigots infiltrating an otherwise worthy cause of enforcing our border. This is what happened with the "counter-jihad". Bigots are now infesting these movements, and it's wrong, it's bad, and it delegitimizes these causes.

These bigots are doing more to help the left demonize this issue more than any one else. It's people like these killers that taint the rest of us concerned about the border and who we're letting into this country.

Yep. This particular incident is about drugs; but because of the association of these people with a border-control movement (and this appears not to be the regular minutemen, but a different more racist group), then anyone with legitimate concerns about border control gets labelled "right-wing crazy".

68 realwest  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:08:09am

Well this has been real, but I gotta go eat some lunch and do some more chores. Hope that the Iranian "dissidents" get some traction over there and that these criminals posing as "minutemen" get the death penalty.

69 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:08:20am

re: #56 Spare O'Lake

I do not like illegal immigration. Staunch supporter of border enforcement, okay?

But, if I couldn't feed my family, and I had to illegally cross a border in order to feed them... I'd sneak over until I made it.

70 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:08:24am

I don't think it's fair to pin this crime as being due to right-wing extremism. The Sheriff himself in the article said the crime had "a financial motive" -- it was just some scuzzballs trying to rip off a drug-dealer, probably among the most common types of violent crime in the country.

This appears to be a case of three lowbrow murderous criminals who coincidentally happened to be associated with the Minutemen group. There's no evidence that this was a politically motivated crime. They just wanted the dealer's cash, and were willing to kill him to get it.

We don't blame all black people when an individual black person commits a crime; nor do we assume that the crime had a political or racial motivation if a black person commits a crime against a white person. In almost all cases, the crimes have financial motives. So we shouldn't do the reverse in this case.

If the killers had said they attacked the drug dealer due to his racial ethnicity, then that would be a different story. But they didn't (as far as I can tell). They just wanted money.

Criminals come in all political stripes. Just because these particular criminals had a certain political orientation, does not discredit that orientation overall.

71 realwest  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:08:47am

Have a good day y'all and I hope I get the chance to see you all down the road.

72 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:08:55am

There is a long history of common criminals piggy-backing themselves onto radical groups of one kind or another. This allows them to use the group's networks of safe houses and supporters, tap their funds, and (if necessary) avail themselves of the free legal services that somehow become available when radicals actually fall into the hands of the law. The latter is unlikely to be the case here, but it would be different if they were leftists.
Some groups, like the late 60s pro-VC gangs, actively recruit criminals, since admiration for violent criminals is a pervasive component of the leftist cultural background and in fact springs from the same source, the "illusion of rebellion" marketing strategy that permeates commercial media culture.

73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:08:59am

re: #59 Nevergiveup

Where you wanna go?

74 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:09:09am

re: #71 realwest
See ya later!

75 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:09:18am

re: #65 BigPapa

Wanna take a gander at which drug is at the center of this crime? Hmm...

Shall we guess meth?

76 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:09:20am

re: #68 realwest

They'll probably get some traction, all right...the lucky ones who make it to a hospital...

77 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:09:40am

re: #58 tradewind

Could be bias. But to point out that this person was too hot for them should be noted anyway.

78 realwest  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:09:49am

re: #70 zombie
Woops, hadda come back and say excellent comment, zombie.

79 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:09:54am

BBL...Laundry :(

80 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:10:53am

re: #69 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I do not like illegal immigration. Staunch supporter of border enforcement, okay?

But, if I couldn't feed my family, and I had to illegally cross a border in order to feed them... I'd sneak over until I made it.

Sure.

But Bush had this right, on paper - just implement a "guest worker" program, so they come here legally and we still control the borders.

Granted, the net effect might be small as to the numbers here, which would still be large.

It's a tribute to our government's inability to get even easy stuff done, that this is even a problem.

81 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:11:01am

re: #61 Charles

Here they are at the Phoenix, Arizona "tea party:"

[Link: minutemenamericandefense.org...]

Thanks for posting that. People get pissed when I do it.

82 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:11:36am

re: #63 Racer X

Sorry I disagree. There are bigger fish. These 3 are just assholes. I'm not really looking at life in a "Left vs. Right" paradigm any more.

I've been pointing out these people's words because I don't see the left-right dichotomy either. These are dangerous people, just as willing to undermine the rule of law as people on the left. That's a pretty good fish to fry, imo.

83 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:11:47am

re: #70 zombie

A-Freakin'Men.
Egg- cellent point, Zombie.

84 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:11:59am

re: #62 Iron Fist

Well, sure. But if the Militiamen want to distance themselves from this act/persons/mentality and further their agenda, they need to push the narrative. Not getting my hopes up, but I can hope.

85 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:12:15am

re: #61 Charles

Here they are at the Phoenix, Arizona "tea party:"

[Link: minutemenamericandefense.org...]

*crickets*

If Killgore had posted this it he'd have caused at least one meltdown.

86 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:12:43am

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Thanks for posting that. People get pissed when I do it.

*grin* ... the truth FINALLY comes out!
Charles is Killgore's sock!

/

87 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:13:09am

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Where you wanna go?

Well I'm going to a Graduation party at friend's who kid just gradiated College. The food should be good and they should have a bottle of Scotch since I brought one last time and they don't drink much. It will be a normal crowd and I can guarantee ya one subject that in a million years that will not come up is the DHS report. I would bet all I have that no one even would know what it is.

88 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:13:41am

re: #85 Bloodnok

I posted it yesterday and everybody just scrolled past and ignored it.

89 srb1976  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:00am

I never cease to be amazed at the ability of people to rationalize away being completely batshit crazy...

At what point do you realize that you are just not normal? I would hope, for most, that comes before you start shooting children...

90 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:04am

re: #51 reine.de.tout

I'm trying to figure out the "vigilantism" angle in this particular story. It seems to be about drugs.

There is no vigilanteism angle. It's just a drug crime. And in this rare instance, the drug crime is committed by people who have an identifiable political orientation. I don't think it's indicative of anything significant.

91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:08am

re: #81 Killgore Trout

I don't.

92 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:13am

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Thanks for posting that. People get pissed when I do it.

I'm no fan of the tea parties, and this particular "minutemanamericandefense" organization looks sketchy, but honestly, I don't see a vigilante incident here, but drug-related murders.

93 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:32am

re: #70 zombie

You are absolutely correct, however it won't be fair. Frank Rich will fire up on this as well as all the Usual Suspects. The Minutemen need to react to this quickly lest they be tarnished. It's the times we're in.

94 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:36am

re: #88 Killgore Trout

I posted it yesterday and everybody just scrolled past and ignored it.

That surprises me.

95 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:43am

re: #90 zombie

There is no vigilanteism angle. It's just a drug crime. And in this rare instance, the drug crime is committed by people who have an identifiable political orientation. I don't think it's indicative of anything significant.

I agree with you.

96 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:53am

re: #70 zombie

Who is pinning this crime on right-wing extremism? It looks to me as thought their connection to extremism is being pointed out. I don't think that's the same thing.

97 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:14:55am

re: #85 Bloodnok

*crickets*

If Killgore had posted this it he'd have caused at least one meltdown.

heh
EXCELLENT observation!

98 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:15:31am

Loves me some Killgore!

99 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:15:32am

re: #70 zombie

Apparently, the motivation for the crime was to get money and drugs to fund their anti-immigration group:

Two of the three people arrested in connection with the May 30 murders of an Arivaca man and his daughter headed up a splinter Minuteman group, and were looking for drugs and money to fund their efforts to keep illegal immigrants and drug runners out of the country, sheriff’s officials said.

100 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:16:01am

re: #61 Charles

Here they are at the Phoenix, Arizona "tea party:"

[Link: minutemenamericandefense.org...]

Note the scumbag posing with a banner showing an M-16 silhouette and the words "come and take it."
Sounds like the sheriff did just that.

101 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:16:20am

re: #99 Charles

Apparently, the motivation for the crime was to get money and drugs to fund their anti-immigration group:

Sounds a lot like the radical Leftist groups back in the 70's, rob to fund their agenda.

102 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:16:32am

re: #96 Sharmuta

The post mentions/references the DHS report on right wing extremism. Near the bottom.

103 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:16:34am

re: #92 reine.de.tout

If there was a racial motive it was secondary. They certainly hated Mexicans so it's quite possible that they chose the victim because of his race. It's not like there's a shortage of white drug dealers in Phoenix.

104 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:16:55am

re: #100 shiplord kirel

Note the scumbag posing with a banner showing an M-16 silhouette and the words "come and take it."
Sounds like the sheriff did just that.

I saw those at the Boston event.

105 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:16:59am

Some criminal murderers attended a Tea Party and also belong to a border watch group. Maybe this does add some credence to the DHS report. So what? Why spotlight a few bad apples tarnishing all?

I wonder if they also eat meat or drink fluids?

106 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:17:17am

re: #96 Sharmuta

3...2...1... who won't be Sharm? Rich/Olbermann/Maddow will go nuts over this.

107 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:17:25am

I cannot understand the problem with the term ILLEGAL immigrant-(or alien, perhaps more accurate).
I have no problem with legal immigration whatsoever.

Here's a novel idea--why not enforce existing laws and see wherer that takes us? Imho, no justification exists for additional law. Should that prove to be untrue, THEN make the required changes.

One thing to keep in mind, is that illegal immigration is the EFFECT--the ROOT cause is Mexico's inability or unwillingness to work to improve the living standard of it's citizens. Not until that changes will the problem do anything but increase.

108 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:17:50am

From the MAD website:

We are honored to have Gunny aboard. He served 6 tours over seas, where he has several medals. He received a Purple heart, Silver and Bronze star, Combat Infantry Badge and a Presidential citation for his actions in the Special Forces.

109 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:18:28am

re: #100 shiplord kirel

I think the chick in front of the fire truck is the person who got arrested.

110 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:18:50am

re: #108 Charles

I'll bet a thin dime that's BS.

111 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:18:56am

re: #72 shiplord kirel

There is a long history of common criminals piggy-backing themselves onto radical groups of one kind or another. This allows them to use the group's networks of safe houses and supporters, tap their funds, and (if necessary) avail themselves of the free legal services that somehow become available when radicals actually fall into the hands of the law. The latter is unlikely to be the case here, but it would be different if they were leftists.
Some groups, like the late 60s pro-VC gangs, actively recruit criminals, since admiration for violent criminals is a pervasive component of the leftist cultural background and in fact springs from the same source, the "illusion of rebellion" marketing strategy that permeates commercial media culture.

Excellent points.

However, in this particular circumstance, it seems to be that these three assholes did not join the Minutemen group in order to justify their criminal careers; they were merely criminals who happened to have extreme anti-immigration views.

112 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:19:14am

OT sort of

This week 800 immigration advocates gathered in Washington to push for open immigration "reform" Sen. Harry Reid has promised to pass this year. The open immigration group was addressed by President Obama's pro-open immigration advocate, a woman whose name escapes me but she heads Obama's White House Office of Intergovernmental affairs. This woman used to be an open immigration advocate before joining the White House, according to the article.

This was from an article in the current edition of "El Pregonero", a spanish language free publication here in the DC area, sponsored by the Catholic Church.

113 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:19:14am

re: #107 irongrampa


Not until that changes will the problem do anything but increase.


So it's completely hopeless.

114 Rancher  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:19:20am

Extremists often finance their organizations with crime so this can't be dismissed out of hand as just a drug crime or theft. Time and a thorough investigation will tell if the two are connected. Also the Minutemen American Defense is pretty extremist, and I hate the fact that they have tarred every Minuteman organization one of which I was once a member, The Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. The irony in all this is LGF is quite often tarred with the "extremists" label, God forbid some Lizard ever does anything this despicable. We tend to police ourselves pretty well though, I don't ever see that happening except for someone who posted five or six times before being banned.

115 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:19:20am
116 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:19:43am

re: #99 Charles

This is nice to know:

Scott Anderson, who belongs to the 80-member Green Valley chapter of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, said he has never heard of Forde or her group, but knows others will associate his group with theirs.

“I figured something like this was going to happen,” he said Friday evening. “We’re all going to be painted with the same broad brush.”

Anderson said anybody joining the national group must undergo a background check, an interview with a national officer and go through four to six hours of training.

“Our rules are very strict,” he said. “We’re doing everything above-board according to the law.”

Even before the arrests Anderson knew the Minutemen had an image problem with some people.

“I wish people could see our standard operating procedures,” he said. “We don’t impede the movement of anybody — we give them (illegal immigrants) water and medical aid just like the Samaritans do, but then we call the Border Patrol. We can’t convince people of that.

The real Minutemen are making sure they keep riffraff like this out.

117 Scion9  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:19:47am

re: #90 zombie

And in this rare instance, the drug crime is committed by people who have an identifiable political orientation.

The political orientation of criminals committing mundane crimes for the usual reasons isn't an unknown, it simply isn't addressed by the press.

118 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:19:48am

Israel is headed for a clash with main ally the United States over the issue of Jewish settlements, former US president Jimmy Carter said in an interview on Sunday.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

I bet Jimmy almost got a woody saying that?

119 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:20:14am

re: #32 poteen

A criminal is a criminal.

It's a story here not because their crime is relevant to their cause. It's a story here because it illustrates the type of person who joins this particular organisation.

Put it another way. If a bunch of Black Panthers did this, and it turned out to be about drugs rather than on behalf of their cause, fellow Panthers would be justified in disavowing them. Unfortunately for them, the fact that the Panthers have opened a door to any thug to join them is itself a problem for the organisation.

120 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:20:56am

re: #118 Nevergiveup

Somehow I bet that horse left the barn long ago.
Maybe a leg tingle.

121 MJ  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:21:06am

re: #101 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sounds a lot like the radical Leftist groups back in the 70's, rob to fund their agenda.

Also sounds like this out of The Order (Aryan Nations) playbooks:

October 1983

The Order launches its crime spree when Mathews and members Randy Duey, Bruce Pierce and Daniel Bauer rob an adult bookstore in Spokane.

April 1984

The Order robs an armored car in Seattle of $500,000. Counterfeit money printed at the Aryan Nations also turns up.

122 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:21:16am

re: #108 Charles

From the MAD website:

We are honored to have Gunny aboard. He served 6 tours over seas, where he has several medals. He received a Purple heart, Silver and Bronze star, Combat Infantry Badge and a Presidential citation for his actions in the Special Forces.

Sure, and I would have captured bin Laden single-handed if Obammunist Mexican ACORN gangsters hadn't sabotaged my handcuffs.
///

123 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:21:38am

The crime may very well have been related to their anti-immigration "cause." Another quote from the article in the Sahuarita Sun:

Bush was listed as “operations director,” and is known as “Gunny.”

Dupnik said Bush was the shooter, under orders from Forde, and called the murders “one of the most despicable crimes that anyone in our organization has ever been associated with.”

Dupnik called it “a planned home invasion where the plan was to kill all the people inside this trailer because they might be witnesses, and rob them.” He said there are other people involved and the investigation continues.

PCSO Lt. Michael O’Connor called the killings an “assassination,” and said the shooters were looking for Flores’ other daughter, who was not at home.

Dupnik also said Raul Flores was “a large dealer” who likely had connections to large Mexican drug cartels and “has a history of being involved in narcotics.”

124 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:21:44am

re: #99 Charles

Apparently, the motivation for the crime was to get money and drugs to fund their anti-immigration group:

That clinches it, then. This is parallel to the Weathermens' attacks on armoured vans, or to the IRA's bank robberies.

It is terrorism, and the group has revealed itself as domestic terrorists.

125 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:21:58am

re: #105 unrealizedviewpoint

Tea Party organizers refuse to denounce them. Anti-government militias (like the promise keepers) are appearing on stage, neonazis from stormfront are recruiting, and nobody denounces them. They are quite welcome to attend. This is only going to get worse.

126 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:22:32am

re: #99 Charles

Two of the three people arrested in connection with the May 30 murders of an Arivaca man and his daughter headed up a splinter Minuteman group, and were looking for drugs and money to fund their efforts to keep illegal immigrants and drug runners out of the country, sheriff’s officials said.

Sigh. Oh, so that's okay then?

Morons. Murdering bastards.

127 Rancher  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:22:33am

re: #61 Charles

Here they are at the Phoenix, Arizona "tea party:"

[Link: minutemenamericandefense.org...]

So now that's tainted too. Lets abandon all Conservative causes because idiots like these are probable going to be around every one.

128 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:22:43am

re: #113 tradewind


Hardly. Better control at the border will help,obviouslyenforcement of laws (see above) will help, and finally, the striped pants dance MAY be enough to make a meaningful difference.

129 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:22:58am

From February 24th regarding an odd incident involving Shawna Forde:

Jim Gilchrist is standing by Shawna Forde and her story!

Jim Gilchrist

Also see: [Link: www.splcenter.org...]

130 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:23:08am

And now for something completely different, the Larch:

Lawmaker's house horrifies neighbors
Weeds, rats surround Calif. Dem's decaying home
by Jeff Gottlieb - Jun. 14, 2009 12:00 AM
Los Angeles Times

SACRAMENTO - John Bailey thought it was great when his neighbor was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 2007.

"Not everyone lives next door to a congresswoman," he said.

But two years later, he doesn't feel so lucky. The congresswoman's house is abandoned and in disrepair, "a blight on the neighborhood," Bailey said.

He said he thinks the way Rep. Laura Richardson, D-Calif., has treated her home tells far more about her than her voting record.

"I wouldn't want anyone that irresponsible to represent me," said Bailey, like Richardson a liberal Democrat. "What I don't get is how she has the time to visit with Fidel Castro but doesn't have time for her own house. If you can't manage your own household, you probably shouldn't get involved in international affairs."

131 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:23:11am

re: #117 Scion9

In my city, I would bet that one hundred percent of the (many) crack dealers arrested would self-identify as Obama supporters.
Doesn't make the drug trade here a democrat conspiracy.

132 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:23:14am

re: #114 Rancher

Extremists often finance their organizations with crime so this can't be dismissed out of hand as just a drug crime or theft. Time and a thorough investigation will tell if the two are connected. Also the Minutemen American Defense is pretty extremist, and I hate the fact that they have tarred every Minuteman organization one of which I was once a member, The Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. The irony in all this is LGF is quite often tarred with the "extremists" label, God forbid some Lizard ever does anything this despicable. We tend to police ourselves pretty well though, I don't ever see that happening except for someone who posted five or six times before being banned.

Minuteman leader Jim Gilchrist has appeared several times on the white supremacist radio show "Political Cesspool."

133 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:23:39am
134 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:23:49am

re: #116 Sharmuta
The "real minutemen" have connections to neo nazi groups too. I looked into it yesterday.

135 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:23:58am

It's a little frustrating to debate amongst ourselves whether it is or isn't right wing extremism. That's not the point.

What's happening is that the fringe kooks are framing the debate on subjects that are important to us. Our opponents are gleefully pointing out the flaws in the crazy positions by the crazy people, taking advantage of the obvious Straw Man opportunity.

While it's not our fault, it's our problem to deal with. Just like all the moderate Muslims who complain about public perception of Islam in general: it's not their fault, but they have to do something about it since the whackos get all the press.

It's not the Minuteman's fault that the media isn't telling the absolutely factual story, but it's their problem if that isn't what's happening.

136 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:24:36am

re: #99 Charles

Apparently, the motivation for the crime was to get money and drugs to fund their anti-immigration group:

Ah, interesting! Then it's more in line with what Shiplord Kirel pointed out in comment #72 -- criminals using politics to justify their crimes.

Anybody who busts in to a drug house and starts shooting, in order to steal drug money, is still just a scuzzballl murderer in my book, regardless of why they claim they want the money.

137 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:25:07am

re: #134 Killgore Trout

The "real minutemen" have connections to neo nazi groups too. I looked into it yesterday.

So I see. That's very disappointing.

138 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:25:28am

re: #133 Iron Fist

It is a common thing. The flag goes back to the war between Mexico and Texas, before Texas joined the Union. It is a perfectly legitimate flag to fly. I'd bet you also see some of the yellow Militia flags with the rattlesnake on it. "Dont Tread On Me", right?

The "Come and Take It" slogan itself goes back to King Leonidas of Sparta. "Molon Labe", in Greek, and you'll see that around a good bit too. It's fairly popular as a tattoo in certain circles.

You are probably right. I'll hesitate to assign a particular political philosophy to the people holding it, then. Thanks!

139 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:25:31am

re: #118 Nevergiveup

Israel is headed for a clash with main ally the United States over the issue of Jewish settlements, former US president Jimmy Carter said in an interview on Sunday.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

I bet Jimmy almost got a woody saying that?

I read about Jimmy's visit to Gush Etzion, a West Bank Jewish settlement. I guess Jimmy finally wanted to get the other side of the story. He was shown documents that proved the legitimate purchase, by Jews, of Gush Etzion in 1951. In the end Jimmy admitted that Gush Etzion would probably stay part of Israel in any two party state solution.

140 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:26:25am

So Bibi excepts a 2 state solution, short shit gets re-elected, and Our health care system is under attack. Coffee anyone?

141 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:26:26am

re: #127 Rancher

So now that's tainted too. Lets abandon all Conservative causes because idiots like these are probable going to be around every one.

How about let's just not associate with Paulians and racists instead?

142 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:26:40am

The Minutemen's Chris Simcox has also been on "Political Cesspool."

This is the radio show that often features David Duke and other well-known white supremacists.

143 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:27:06am
144 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:27:11am

re: #127 Rancher

So now that's tainted too. Lets abandon all Conservative causes because idiots like these are probable going to be around every one.

No. Let's see the Tea Party organizers begin kicking their scuzzy asses out.

145 BigPapa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:27:33am

re: #114 Rancher

The irony in all this is LGF is quite often tarred with the "extremists" label, God forbid some Lizard ever does anything this despicable. We tend to police ourselves pretty well though...

Darned right we do. I'm pretty sure Charles and Lizardom would handle it pretty well.

146 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:27:34am

re: #142 Charles

The Minutemen's Chris Simcox has also been on "Political Cesspool."

This is the radio show that often features David Duke and other well-known white supremacists.

Isn't Simcox the one running for Congress now?

147 Rancher  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:27:37am

re: #132 Charles

Minuteman leader Jim Gilchrist has appeared several times on the white supremacist radio show "Political Cesspool."


I know, you've told me before, and I'll remind you I quit because he was also playing pretty loose with the organization's funds. That shouldn't diminish the cause of trying to secure our borders and those who joined the Minutemen for that reason, but it does. Like I said, lets just give up and abandon the country to the left rather than be associated with the kooks.

148 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:27:38am

re: #139 KingKenrod

I read about Jimmy's visit to Gush Etzion, a West Bank Jewish settlement. I guess Jimmy finally wanted to get the other side of the story. He was shown documents that proved the legitimate purchase, by Jews, of Gush Etzion in 1951. In the end Jimmy admitted that Gush Etzion would probably stay part of Israel in any two party state solution.

After saying yesterday all settlements would have to be dismantled on the orders of Obama. Senility is a sad thing.

149 Scion9  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:27:41am

re: #131 tradewind

In my city, I would bet that one hundred percent of the (many) crack dealers arrested would self-identify as Obama supporters.
Doesn't make the drug trade here a democrat conspiracy.

Yeah I know, and that isn't what I was saying. Just that the knowledge isn't out there, it's just not highlighted. Even when there is a clear political motive involved in a crime, if it doesn't fit the narrative, it is a non-story. I give you the recent SJS non-story from last week that no one will remember by next.

150 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:27:53am

The Larch:

Beauty of the beasts: Swiss cows fight to be queen
Jun. 14, 2009 09:19 AM
Associated Press

GRIMENTZ, Switzerland - Furie and Cigale eye each other warily, take a step forward and lock horns.

It's an ancient ritual, one that plays out each summer high in the Swiss Alps, as cows battle to be queen and villagers come to watch.

Judges record every fight as spectators sit on the surrounding mountainside, sipping local wines and cheering their family herd. But it is the cows who choose who to fight and who will reign supreme at the end of the season.

"They've been doing this ever since my grandparents were young, and even before that," says Marthe Vianin, once the proud owner of several fighting cows. "It's hundreds of years old."

151 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:28:10am

re: #146 Sharmuta

Isn't Simcox the one running for Congress now?

Senate challenger to McCain.

He's got a "record" if you know what I mean.

152 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:29:18am

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Tea Party organizers refuse to denounce them. Anti-government militias (like the promise keepers) are appearing on stage, neonazis from stormfront are recruiting, and nobody denounces them. They are quite welcome to attend. This is only going to get worse.

WTF are you talking about. There has been only one (1) Tea Party event, held one day, April 15th 2009 in many locations all across this country. You found a few events amongst the hundreds held where this took place and you tarnish them ALL as being racist events. Again Killgore- stop with this overly broad brush.

153 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:29:19am

re: #119 Zimriel

It's a story here not because their crime is relevant to their cause. It's a story here because it illustrates the type of person who joins this particular organisation.

Put it another way. If a bunch of Black Panthers did this, and it turned out to be about drugs rather than on behalf of their cause, fellow Panthers would be justified in disavowing them. Unfortunately for them, the fact that the Panthers have opened a door to any thug to join them is itself a problem for the organisation.

Agreed. But it's the same for any org. extreme or not. If the Boy Scouts hire a child molester they end up with many of the same problems from right and left. The organization is the cover for the criminal, no part of the cause.
I hope this is coming out right.

154 brookly red  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:29:20am

re: #148 Nevergiveup

After saying yesterday all settlements would have to be dismantled on the orders of Obama. Senility is a sad thing.

/what is this thing they got with bulldozers lately?

155 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:29:28am

re: #118 Nevergiveup

Israel is headed for a clash with main ally the United States over the issue of Jewish settlements, former US president Jimmy Carter said in an interview on Sunday.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

I bet Jimmy almost got a woody saying that?

God, did you see the pic Drudge posted for Dhimmi? He's really looking more ragged.

156 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:29:50am

re: #147 Rancher

Like I said, lets just give up and abandon the country to the left rather than be associated with the kooks.

I grow weary of these absolutist arguments. How about we kick the kooks out of our associations instead of quitting altogether?

157 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:30:38am

re: #143 Iron Fist

Um, dude, the Promise Keepers aren't a militia group. Take a couple of thorazine and calm down a bit.

Promise Keepers:

Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper

PROMISE 1
A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship, prayer and obedience to God's Word in the power of the Holy Spirit.

PROMISE 2
A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises.

PROMISE 3
A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual purity.

PROMISE 4
A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through love, protection and biblical values.

PROMISE 5
A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of his church by honoring and praying for his pastor, and by actively giving his time and resources.

PROMISE 6
A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.

PROMISE 7
A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient to the Great Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission (see Matthew 28:19-20).

158 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:30:39am

re: #152 unrealizedviewpoint

Again Killgore- stop with this overly broad brush.


No.

159 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:31:18am

re: #148 Nevergiveup

After saying yesterday all settlements would have to be dismantled on the orders of Obama. Senility is a sad thing.

He said "probably stay part of Israel" which is really pathetic since the land was legitimately purchased 58 years ago, and has been continuously inhabited by Jews since before the '67 war.

160 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:31:56am

re: #99 Charles

Apparently, the motivation for the crime was to get money and drugs to fund their anti-immigration group:

We're not being given all the necessary info by the reportage. From the same article:

No, I did not do it,” Forde said as she was led out of the Pima County Sheriff’s Office in front of reporters Friday afternoon.

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said Forde was “still trying up until today to get together a large amount of money to further sophisticate the type of operation she’s interested in.”

“She’s, at best, a psychopath,” he said.

If the criminal is protesting her innocence, then she obviously can't simultaneously be explaining the political motivation for the crime -- since she claims she didn't commit the crime. Apparently the theory that she was rounding up money to fund her terror campaign is just something the Sheriff is speculating-- and is not what the criminals have said themselves.

Also, one can't be a "psychopath" and also a cool-headed money-gatherer for the vigilante group. I admit she's probably crazy, but that kind of undermines the political angle.

161 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:32:02am

re: #99 Charles

Apparently, the motivation for the crime was to get money and drugs to fund their anti-immigration group:

Amazing. How ironic.

162 Rancher  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:32:07am

re: #141 Killgore Trout

How about let's just not associate with Paulians and racists instead?


If they're going to show up and co-opt the events how do we do that? Physically "kick their scuzzy asses out" re: #144 pre-Boomer Marine brat?

163 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:32:35am

The Larch


Nevada students find naked man tied to a rock

ZEPHYR COVE, Nev. – A 53-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of being naked near a high school on Lake Tahoe's east shore. The naked man was arrested Monday after three Whittell High School students reported spotting him tied to a rock and lying face down behind the school. When the students asked if he needed to be untied, the man answered no.

Douglas County sheriff's deputies said the man told them he was watching some buzzards flying overhead at the time.

The man, who said he was a freelance writer, was arrested on a charge of loitering on school grounds. He's scheduled to appear Monday in Tahoe Township Justice Court.

164 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:33:07am

There is a lot of cultural history behind this idea of robbing drug dealers to finance "worthy" causes. It is a frequent theme in right-wing "action adventure" fiction like the endless Mack Bolan series (600+ novels). The sensationalist writer Martin Caidin used it several times in his science fiction, notably in Exit Earth, where a ruthless billionaire uses stolen drug money to finance a Moon colony.
It rarely happens in real life, since robbing drug dealers is a notably risky fund-raising method, but it would be a familiar idea to anyone steeped in the lore of the far right.

165 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:33:23am

re: #155 Macker

Strangely, Carter said that some of the Israeli communities will remain in Israeli control. That includes the Etzion bloc.

166 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:33:26am

re: #157 reine.de.tout

Sorry. I meant the Oath keepers...

167 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:33:27am

re: #159 KingKenrod

He said "probably stay part of Israel" which is really pathetic since the land was legitimately purchased 58 years ago, and has been continuously inhabited by Jews since before the '67 war.

I was just trying to contrast it to what the senile old bag said the other day. the SOB should just stay home and write another fairy tale.

168 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:33:31am

Why the hell is Killgore associating the Promise Keepers with this story?

169 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:33:35am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

No.

I see you replied only to the last sentence, not all the other relevant factual ones.

170 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:33:47am

re: #103 Killgore Trout

If there was a racial motive it was secondary. They certainly hated Mexicans so it's quite possible that they chose the victim because of his race. It's not like there's a shortage of white drug dealers in Phoenix.

But one of the murderers (Gaxiola) was himself Mexican. So how does that jibe with him killing the drug dealer because he hated Mexicans?

171 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:33:54am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Sorry. I meant the Oath keepers...

Youtube Video


Oh, ok.

172 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:34:13am

re: #165 lawhawk

Strangely, Carter said that some of the Israeli communities will remain in Israeli control. That includes the Etzion bloc.

Maybe he missed his meds or something?

173 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:34:22am

re: #168 Zimriel

Sorry I meant the Oath Keepers.

174 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:34:49am

re: #169 unrealizedviewpoint

I see you replied only to the last sentence, not all the other relevant factual ones.

He's got a one track mind, ignore it like I decided to do.

175 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:35:00am

re: #143 Iron Fist

Um, dude, the Promise Keepers aren't a militia group. Take a couple of thorazine and calm down a bit.

And KT wonders why people jump all over him when he starts his rants. Couldn't be that he invents out of whole cloth new boogey-men to shriek about.

Promise Keepers a militia group, what a crock.

176 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:35:09am

re: #170 zombie

But one of the murderers (Gaxiola) was himself Mexican. So how does that jibe with him killing the drug dealer because he hated Mexicans?

My brain just exploded.

177 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:35:14am

re: #144 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Indeed. The 3 small orgs I'm involved with are well aware of this, and will definitely do just that, if the need arises. I very much doubt that this scum will have much impact on a national level, IF the people who actually engage in these protests are made aware. Likely the reaction will be outrage,after all, these are YOU and ME who attend the events.

178 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:35:30am

Here we go again...

179 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:35:49am

re: #170 zombie

He was acting out. It was a cry for help. The expectations associated with his cultural identity led to perturbations in the development of his ego.

/

180 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:36:11am

re: #170 zombie

But one of the murderers (Gaxiola) was himself Mexican. So how does that jibe with him killing the drug dealer because he hated Mexicans?

Sheriff Arpaio is Hispanic too, I think...

In the Southwest, a lot of the locals were there before the US annexed it. They're not exactly pro-DC (in fact, New Mexico tried joining the Confederacy) but they're much, MUCH less pro Guatemalan and Mexican-Maya trekking up north and demanding "civil rights" which the natives, themselves, never got.

181 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:36:28am

re: #178 Killgore Trout

I've gone back to listening to GNR's 'You're Crazy'.

182 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:37:03am

Yanks are beating the Mets 6-0 and Santana is still in the game?

183 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:37:30am
184 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:37:56am

re: #181 Sharmuta

I've gone back to listening to GNR's 'You're Crazy'.

You, listening to Axl?

The world has gone mad...

185 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:38:04am

re: #182 Nevergiveup

Yanks are beating the Mets 6-0 and Santana is still in the game?

Satntana? Yankees? On this thread?

186 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:38:15am

Knoxville Tea Party: Oath Keepers

They plan to refuse orders and overthrow the government to preserve their wacky Paulian interpretation of the Constitution.

187 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:38:16am

re: #172 Nevergiveup

Maybe he missed his meds or something?

I thought that's why he grew peanuts.

188 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:38:34am

re: #178 Killgore Trout

Here we go again...

Yeah, here we go again with Killgore's broad brush, associating all folks (democrats and republicans) who attended Tea parties with racists, because a few of these undesirables happened to show up at an event, or grab a podium at another.

189 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:38:39am

re: #184 Zimriel

It's the only song of theirs I like. (It's the 'Lies' version.)

190 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:39:12am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Sorry. I meant the Oath keepers...

[Video]

BIG difference.

191 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:39:38am

re: #186 Killgore Trout

"The veterans in this country are a sleeping giant that are about to wake up."

192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:39:48am

I remember Promise Keepers from several years ago... Started out as a pretty good idea. Don't know much about the last 10 years of so of it.

193 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:40:00am

Strange enough some people often become what they most hate in life when consumed with extremist ideology and hatred. Coupled with a do-no-wrong attitude and sense of the greater good any behavior on their part becomes quickly acceptable.

194 Rancher  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:40:15am

Maybe if organizers actually state "we want no racists or racism here" but then the MCDC did just that and then Gilchrist shows up on "Political Cesspool". We can marginalize Paulians I guess the same way but all it takes is one damn sign at an event, like the one Garapolo (sp) saw at a Tea Party, and we're marginalized. Maybe violence is the answer, kick their asses out.

195 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:40:24am

re: #124 Zimriel

That clinches it, then. This is parallel to the Weathermens' attacks on armoured vans, or to the IRA's bank robberies.

It is terrorism, and the group has revealed itself as domestic terrorists.

It only "clinches it" if the Sheriff's claims turns out to be proven true in court. Still no evidence of that.

In the extremist group's literature, they say:

A message from Forde on her Web site reads, “I would like to let everyone know that we are in full operation we have people coming from Florida and other parts of the country to assist in gathering exclusive footage of drug cartel drug smuggling and humane trafficking. Our point is to let the world know that we as American citizens have a choice and a responsibility to those who have stained the ground red for our freedoms.”

So, how sensible it is to decry drug smugglers and the violence that drug-smuggling brings -- and then go out and shoot up a drug house to steal money in order to finance your anti-drug-smuggling vigilante campaign?

196 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:41:18am

re: #69 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I do not like illegal immigration. Staunch supporter of border enforcement, okay?

But, if I couldn't feed my family, and I had to illegally cross a border in order to feed them... I'd sneak over until I made it.


Good Afternoon everyone,
It is my opinion that the government of Mexico is so corrupt, it is contributing significantly to the illegal immigration problem. I have not seen serious reform mentioned for Mexico. The drug problem has boiled over into the streets. Would a reformed Mexican national government have allowed things to get so out of hand?

197 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:41:35am

re: #195 zombie

So, how sensible it is to decry drug smugglers and the violence that drug-smuggling brings -- and then go out and shoot up a drug house to steal money in order to finance your anti-drug-smuggling vigilante campaign?

If you're a Weatherman who hates capitalism, robbing a bank makes perfect sense.

198 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:41:37am

re: #183 Iron Fist

Kilgore is either hysterical or he is drunk. He sees Nazis everyhere. Lots of people have tried to calm him down, but that's just the headspace he's in.

The thing is he has a not inconsiderable habit of saying one group is bad, getting stomped on, then saying he was wrong and mentions out the group he meant. He is using journalism ethics as his guide for his rants.

199 Nevergiveup  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:41:40am

What do you call someone who responds to his own posts? Schizophrenic?

200 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:41:54am

OT
Brit Hume said "Iran is a police state" on Fox News with Chris Wallace.

201 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:42:11am

re: #162 Rancher

If they're going to show up and co-opt the events how do we do that? Physically "kick their scuzzy asses out" re: #144 pre-Boomer Marine brat?

Co-Opt?
If they show up, then are they also taking over the events?
(I'm asking because I simply do not know.)
Are they controlling the events from the get-go?
Are they the primary organizers?

Do the actual organizers care, or not, what kind of groups take an active part in the events?

If you were on the board of a neighborhood association (homeowners, residents), would you let a known youth gang come in and set up a table at the annual picnic?

202 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:42:24am

re: #199 Nevergiveup

What do you call someone who responds to his own posts? Schizophrenic?

Could be just lonely.

203 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:42:42am
204 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:42:55am

re: #99 Charles

"...were looking for drugs and money to fund their efforts to keep illegal immigrants and drug runners out of the country, sheriff’s officials said."

That is the most illogical and ridiculous "rationale" for a crime I'm ever heard. Totally self-defeating, and therefore probably just a feeble rationalization that isn't even true.

205 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:42:57am

re: #69 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I do not like illegal immigration. Staunch supporter of border enforcement, okay?

But, if I couldn't feed my family, and I had to illegally cross a border in order to feed them... I'd sneak over until I made it.

Honestly, I probably would too.
Sad, difficult, complex situation.

206 Rancher  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:43:03am

re: #195 zombie

So, how sensible it is to decry drug smugglers and the violence that drug-smuggling brings -- and then go out and shoot up a drug house to steal money in order to finance your anti-drug-smuggling vigilante campaign?

Kill two birds with one stone? How sensible is it to use tobacco money to fight smoking?

207 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:43:49am

re: #177 irongrampa

Indeed. The 3 small orgs I'm involved with are well aware of this, and will definitely do just that, if the need arises. I very much doubt that this scum will have much impact on a national level, IF the people who actually engage in these protests are made aware. Likely the reaction will be outrage,after all, these are YOU and ME who attend the events.

Precisely.

208 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:44:07am

re: #201 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That's it right there. Whomever is organizing 'tea parties' has a say in who gets to speak. Now if the nazis and other assorted loonies show up and hold signs, there's not a lot that can be done. Just don't give them a spot on the podium!

209 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:45:09am

re: #186 Killgore Trout

Knoxville Tea Party: Oath Keepers

They plan to refuse orders and overthrow the government to preserve their wacky Paulian interpretation of the Constitution.

Oath Keepers Stewart Rhodes on Alex Jones 1 of 4

Alex Jones guest.

210 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:45:13am

re: #194 Rancher

Maybe if organizers actually state "we want no racists or racism here" but then the MCDC did just that and then Gilchrist shows up on "Political Cesspool". We can marginalize Paulians I guess the same way but all it takes is one damn sign at an event, like the one Garapolo (sp) saw at a Tea Party, and we're marginalized. Maybe violence is the answer, kick their asses out.

kick their asses out!

211 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:45:32am

re: #198 FurryOldGuyJeans

The thing is he has a not inconsiderable habit of saying one group is bad, getting stomped on, then saying he was wrong and mentions out the group he meant. He is using journalism ethics as his guide for his rants.

It's called"getting it right". We're allowed to be wrong, you know.

212 MacDuff  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:45:37am

re: #199 Nevergiveup

What do you call someone who responds to his own posts? Schizophrenic?

Only if you take the opposite position.

213 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:45:39am

OT

Juan Williams of NPR on Fox News with Chris Wallace said Iran's faux elections strengthens Bibi Netanyahu's position that IRAN is the biggest problem in the Middle East preventing peace, NOT the Palis demanding a separate state.

Sorry Pres. Obama, you bet on the wrong horse again.
The World is Watching!

214 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:46:06am

re: #201 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If you were on the board of a neighborhood association (homeowners, residents), would you let a known youth gang come in and set up a table at the annual picnic?

A lot of HAs are the local gang.

215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:46:12am

re: #212 MacDuff

Hiya Rose...

Oops!

216 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:46:29am

Karmic's Handy Dandy Social Theory #537 -

Devolution of Conservative Political Movements -

Conservative political movements in the United States will often devolve into Right Wing nut groups because they are otherwise not sustainable. Self identified conservatives are clustered in the 35 to 55 age group which constitute prime earning years. Sustaining motivated membership that does anything but give money poses a challenge because continued efforts in supporting a movement comes with steepening opportunity costs. Only those who are ideologically committed to the point of jettisoning the steep opportunity costs stick with the cause, which often leads to narrow ideological alignment of the movement around the notions of those who remain to lead it.

217 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:46:34am

re: #203 Iron Fist

I heard about the Oath Keepers (called that because all members of the military swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution) yesterday. I figured you'd have a shit-hemorrhage when you heard about them.

The Army already has a process for determining legal orders. It's the Uniform Code of Military Justice. How would a separate subgroup within the armed forces, outside the normal chain of command, be of any additional value?

218 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:46:45am

re: #204 zombie

"...were looking for drugs and money to fund their efforts to keep illegal immigrants and drug runners out of the country, sheriff’s officials said."

That is the most illogical and ridiculous "rationale" for a crime I'm ever heard. Totally self-defeating, and therefore probably just a feeble rationalization that isn't even true.

I'm not so certain.

219 Scion9  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:46:47am

re: #195 zombie

So, how sensible it is to decry drug smugglers and the violence that drug-smuggling brings -- and then go out and shoot up a drug house to steal money in order to finance your anti-drug-smuggling vigilante campaign?

If you believe you are so absolutely right and everyone is so wrong that it is literally you against the world, it is plausible. I guess it's a wait and see scenario though.

re: #196 NelsFree

Actually a lot of what has spilled into the streets is because the Mexican government is now taking stabs at the cartel. The 'peace' is disrupted because they are actually making attempts to fix things. The wound has been festering for so long though that it might be too late because the cartels are too powerful, and have the prosperity and manpower to withstand the Mexican governments efforts as it bleeds resources and political capital in the process.

220 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:46:55am

re: #211 Bloodnok

It's called"getting it right". We're allowed to be wrong, you know.

Not when it happens time and time again. Get it right BEFORE you speak, not after.

221 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:47:08am

re: #204 zombie

"...were looking for drugs and money to fund their efforts to keep illegal immigrants and drug runners out of the country, sheriff’s officials said."

That is the most illogical and ridiculous "rationale" for a crime I'm ever heard. Totally self-defeating, and therefore probably just a feeble rationalization that isn't even true.

* * * *
You said it, a Reverse Robin Hood is still a criminal hood.

222 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:47:31am

re: #203 Iron Fist

There's no blanket justification on unlawful orders, as you indicated it must be dealt with on an individual basis.

As far as the Oath goes, nobody I know and associate with, who took that oath, has ever reneged on it.

223 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:48:06am

re: #197 Zimriel

If you're a Weatherman who hates capitalism, robbing a bank makes perfect sense.

re: #206 Rancher

Kill two birds with one stone? How sensible is it to use tobacco money to fight smoking?

I agree with both of you. I don't see how it doesn't make sense. They kill the people they're targeting anyways, plus they get their money. Win-win in their minds.

224 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:48:22am

re: #164 shiplord kirel

There is a lot of cultural history behind this idea of robbing drug dealers to finance "worthy" causes. It is a frequent theme in right-wing "action adventure" fiction like the endless Mack Bolan series (600+ novels). The sensationalist writer Martin Caidin used it several times in his science fiction, notably in Exit Earth, where a ruthless billionaire uses stolen drug money to finance a Moon colony.
It rarely happens in real life, since robbing drug dealers is a notably risky fund-raising method, but it would be a familiar idea to anyone steeped in the lore of the far right.

Yes -- but what if your "worthy cause" is to stamp out illegal drug dealing and the violence it breeds?

Then none of this makes any sense. Using drug money to finance an anti-drug stance is illogical, and committing a murder in order to stop murders is also illogical.

225 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:48:44am

re: #220 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not when it happens time and time again. Get it right BEFORE you speak, not after.

Or you could just relax and let someone correct themselves.

226 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:49:27am

re: #208 pingjockey

That's it right there. Whomever is organizing 'tea parties' has a say in who gets to speak. Now if the nazis and other assorted loonies show up and hold signs, there's not a lot that can be done. Just don't give them a spot on the podium!

The organizers can pre-post rules, and then ask offenders to leave.

The offenders can then go across the street and wave their signs all they want.

227 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:49:35am
228 MacDuff  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:49:48am

re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hiya Rose...

Oops!

3 petals = Shamrock
4 petals = 4 Leaf Clover
:)

229 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:50:26am

re: #214 poteen

If you were on the board of a neighborhood association (homeowners, residents), would you let a known youth gang come in and set up a table at the annual picnic?

A lot of HAs are the local gang.

Not the one I was president of back in the 70s (which was in my mind).

230 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:50:46am

OT -
Iran shutting down all test messaging, access to social networking sites, and now this somewhat disturbing post on slashdot


"People, we need your urgent help in Iran. We are under attack by the government. They stole the election. And now are arresting everybody. They also filtered every sensitive Web page. But our problem is that they also block the SMS network and are scrambling satellite TVs. Please, can you help us to set up some sort of network using our home wireless access points? Can anybody show us a link on how to install small TV/radio stations? Any suggestion for setting up a network? Please tell us what to do or we are going to die in the a nuclear war between Iran and US."

Sounds like a plea for help to me, still no statement from Obama?

231 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:50:54am

re: #224 zombie

Yes -- but what if your "worthy cause" is to stamp out illegal drug dealing and the violence it breeds?

Then none of this makes any sense. Using drug money to finance an anti-drug stance is illogical, and committing a murder in order to stop murders is also illogical.

There is NO cause that justifies murdering a 9 yr. old. "Causes" had nothing to do with this. Until it gets to court, sadly.

232 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:51:25am

OT ,,, I've been keekping an eye on three Iranian TV channels. I cannot speak the language so I cannot report on the commentary, but since about noon when I 1st started watching (about 3 hours ago) only one has shown any video re: the demonstrations, and that was for only about 10 seconds. Again, I don't know if they were "talking" about them before or after

These channels are NOT broadcast directly out of Iran, but I know that at least two of the three are gov't backed

233 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:51:45am

re: #224 zombie
I would've murdered Hitler if it would've stopped the Holocaust.

234 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:52:20am

re: #209 Gus 802

Oath Keepers Stewart Rhodes on Alex Jones 1 of 4

Alex Jones guest.

Thanks for posting that. They've been associated with the Paulians and crazy libertarians for a long time. They're now considered mainstream and appear on stage in front of crowds of "normal" conservatives.

235 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:52:33am

re: #199 Nevergiveup

Sometimes a poster references his or her own post because he or she meant to include another point and needs to clarify.
Not the same as having a conversation.

236 philip  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:52:38am

Nativists believe in the RULE OF LAW.

Except when they don't.

237 Rancher  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:52:43am

re: #201 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Co-Opt?
If they show up, then are they also taking over the events?
(I'm asking because I simply do not know.)


In the case of the Tea Parties I don't think so but allot of folks, and I think Charles is one, will give no support for the events just because they are there. (If I'm misrepresenting your views here Charles please forgive me.) Can you legally exclude them? Take your gang anology: "Hey, get those gangsters out of here!" "Hey, man, I've never been convicted, you're just being racist." (Or anti-biker, whatever.)

238 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:52:45am

re: #226 pre-Boomer Marine brat
That'd work. I think. Now we're into 1st amend. territory and I have no idea of the legal ramifications!

239 brookly red  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:53:31am

re: #230 Yankee Division Son

OT -
Iran shutting down all test messaging, access to social networking sites, and now this somewhat disturbing post on slashdot


/It's how you say "I won" in Farsi.

240 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:53:49am

re: #227 Iron Fist
Aha. Sneaking in and subverting from inside.

241 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:53:58am
242 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:54:04am

re: #226 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The organizers can pre-post rules, and then ask offenders to leave.

The offenders can then go across the street and wave their signs all they want.

And opponents of the groups will still see an association, no matter how tenuous.

243 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:55:00am

re: #224 zombie

Yes -- but what if your "worthy cause" is to stamp out illegal drug dealing and the violence it breeds?

Then none of this makes any sense. Using drug money to finance an anti-drug stance is illogical, and committing a murder in order to stop murders is also illogical.

Borrowing money to finance an "era of responsibility" is also irrational.

But a lot of people are buying it right now.

We live in interesting times.

244 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:55:30am

re: #234 Killgore Trout

Thanks for posting that. They've been associated with the Paulians and crazy libertarians for a long time. They're now considered mainstream and appear on stage in front of crowds of "normal" conservatives.

You're welcome. Never heard of this group before but that they're being mainstreamed is no surprising. Especially if you consider that Alex Jones himself has been promoted by "Judge Napolitano" over Fox airwaves.

Found this too:

“I am a Mexican-American, I worked for Ron Paul in the 1990’s, and I Know that Ron Paul is No Racist!

By "Oath Keepers" founder Stewart Rhodes

245 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:55:33am

re: #237 Rancher

They are not infiltrating. They are the organizers. The Paulians (and the Oath Keepers, truthers, etc) have been holding Tea Parties for years. Normal conservatives are now joining them. It's no mystery why the crazies are attending; it's their movement.

246 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:55:49am

re: #227 Iron Fist

I was talking with Dark Falcon yesterday on how easy it is to infiltrate these kinds of grassroots grouyps. They don't have the time, money, or other resourcews to fully vet their volunteers. Someone shows up and volunteers for a job, they will likely be given that job because everyone else is too covered up. They are relieved to have a little more help.

It isn't like thes guys show up in a swastika armband and skinhead gang colors. When their true nature is revealed, people like this are told not to come back. Even that can get nasty, depending on how formal things are, how the corporation for the organization is structured (if they are that formal), etc. It can end in lawsuits and large expenses. Trust me on that. I've been down that road.

That's also a very good point.

247 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:55:49am

re: #242 FurryOldGuyJeans

Add to that a media happy to encourage that view, and there's a real problem.

248 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:55:52am

re: #230 Yankee Division Son

You know that the US and Israel both must have some special ops people in country... maybe they will be able to somehow help them keep communications open...

249 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:55:53am

re: #186 Killgore Trout

Knoxville Tea Party: Oath Keepers

They plan to refuse orders and overthrow the government to preserve their wacky Paulian interpretation of the Constitution.

Yeah, I've heard of these oath-keepers. These are the ten supposed orders they promise not to obey:

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control.”

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

This is bullshit and a strawman. Personally, I promise to disobey any order to shoot myself in the head or turn over my grandchildren to Sudanese slave traders, it's about as likely.
If the president were so reckless or crazy as to issue any of the orders on the list, the JCS chairman would arrest him on the spot. It tells you a lot about the fantasy ideology of the Paulian right that they actually think this paranoid scenario is likely enough to require pre-emptive action.

250 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:55:57am

re: #243 karmic_inquisitor

Borrowing money to finance an "era of responsibility" is also irrational.

But a lot of people are buying it right now.

We live in interesting times.

Not all conclusions are reached through logic.

251 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:56:31am

re: #230 Yankee Division Son

OT -
Iran shutting down all test messaging, access to social networking sites, and now this somewhat disturbing post on slashdot

Sounds like a plea for help to me, still no statement from Obama?

* * * *
It's Flag Day here in the USA, Bill Ayers is stomping on the flag somewhere with other aging leftists.

Don't expect a "shout out" to freedom fighters of the world today.

252 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:56:39am

re: #229 pre-Boomer Marine brat

My experiences in the 80s were much different.

253 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:56:48am

re: #241 Iron Fist

but they aren't worth hyperventilating over.


They have potential to do serious damage if they get wound up enough.

254 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:57:06am

re: #242 FurryOldGuyJeans

And opponents of the groups will still see an association, no matter how tenuous.

And the reasonable folk will recognize how tenuous the assoc is. It's amazing any republican has ever won an election seeing as the dems paint all republicans as baby killers.

255 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:57:14am

re: #249 shiplord kirel
That is right out of la la land.

256 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:57:26am

re: #224 zombie

Yes -- but what if your "worthy cause" is to stamp out illegal drug dealing and the violence it breeds?

Then none of this makes any sense. Using drug money to finance an anti-drug stance is illogical, and committing a murder in order to stop murders is also illogical.

I think their justification would have gone like this: this guy's a low-life Mexican drug dealer anyway, so we send a message and at the same time grab some money for our group and ourselves.

They're already calling Mexicans "subhuman" on their website. From there it's a pretty short step to murder, even murder of children.

257 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:57:28am

re: #208 pingjockey

That's it right there. Whomever is organizing 'tea parties' has a say in who gets to speak. Now if the nazis and other assorted loonies show up and hold signs, there's not a lot that can be done. Just don't give them a spot on the podium!

Killgore's posts here have concentrated on Tea Party events where the loonies set up the podium in the first place. That hasn't happened in all cases, but it did happen in some. In most of Texas, the Republican Party seems to have co-opted the Tea Parties, so they're better policed than most. We are at least free of White Nationalists (except for the Clear Lake - Angleton - Galveston area: see below).

Another problem: some of the speakers are too rooted in the local community to ostracise. Down here on the Gulf Coast, as I was about to get to, Ron Paul is a local congressman. It's very hard to justify not giving him a platform. Not that the Tea Partiers shouldn't try; I'm just outlining how difficult it is to keep him off.

Unlike Killgore, and Charles, I don't think these problems invalidate the whole effort. We do in fact need a grassroots movement for fiscal sanity. If the budget goes under and the dollar fails, "all of this bullshit you think is so important - none of that's going to matter" (Ripley, Aliens)

258 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:57:29am

re: #248 tradewind

Let's hope so.. Obama remaining silent sure isn't helping.

259 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:57:46am
260 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:58:29am

re: #238 pingjockey

That'd work. I think. Now we're into 1st amend. territory and I have no idea of the legal ramifications!

The First Amendment deals specifically with the government.

Admittedly, many have been working to corrupt the meaning.

261 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:58:32am

re: #224 zombie

Yes -- but what if your "worthy cause" is to stamp out illegal drug dealing and the violence it breeds?

Then none of this makes any sense. Using drug money to finance an anti-drug stance is illogical, and committing a murder in order to stop murders is also illogical.

Sure, but these kinds of kooks aren't noted for logic. They love having a "higher standard" that we sheeple just don't understand, just as they love the "higher knowledge" that comes from believing in paranoid conspiracy theories.

262 Scion9  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:58:34am

re: #244 Gus 802

A lot of people have apparently vouched that Paul isn't racist. In all truth, he probably isn't a dyed in the wool racist. He's however apparently not particularly put off by hanging out with them, working alongside them, and taking their checks either.

263 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:58:35am

re: #249 shiplord kirel

That's the problem. It's not like these guys are actually going to rise up and defend the supreme court. They are enforcing their own personal interpretation of the Constitution and are willing to do it by force. Very dangerous.

264 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:58:47am

re: #254 unrealizedviewpoint

And the reasonable folk will recognize how tenuous the assoc is. It's amazing any republican has ever won an election seeing as the dems paint all republicans as baby killers.

There's that "broad brush" you are so fond of complaining about.

265 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:58:49am

re: #243 karmic_inquisitor

Borrowing money to finance an "era of responsibility" is also irrational.

But a lot of people are buying it right now.

We live in interesting times.

* * * *
I feel like I've been held up & robbed -- to "spread the wealth around" alright...

266 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:58:52am

re: #243 karmic_inquisitor

Borrowing money to finance an "era of responsibility" is also irrational.

But a lot of people are buying it right now.

We live in interesting times.

Over-extended borrowing is one of the main reasons for the crisis, encouraged by a government looking for votes, and now the same culprit wants to do the same thing.

Logic is not required.

267 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:58:56am

If the president were so reckless or crazy as to issue any of the orders on the list, the JCS chairman would arrest him on the spot.
A couple of those have been done by previous presidents. You know the old adage... those who ignore history...

268 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:59:00am

re: #250 Sharmuta

Not all conclusions are reached through logic.

I think, therefore I have a right to shelter, health care, and a good job.

Q.E.D.

/

269 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:59:10am

re: #249 shiplord kirel

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control.”

Sounds like something I would read at Prison Planet!

270 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:00:05pm

re: #252 poteen

My experiences in the 80s were much different.

Probably depends upon where we were at those times.

271 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:00:11pm

re: #260 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Ah, my bad. But, if you have a Tea Party and you have the Paulians and neonazis show up and don't let them speak, can they take the organizers to court for not allowing them to speak?

272 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:00:49pm

re: #270 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Probably depends upon where we were at those times.

I remember the 80's


I spent it recovering from the 70's!

273 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:00:51pm
274 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:00:54pm

re: #261 shiplord kirel

Sure, but these kinds of kooks aren't noted for logic. They love having a "higher standard" that we sheeple just don't understand, just as they love the "higher knowledge" that comes from believing in paranoid conspiracy theories.

It's the unconstrained vision- the right wing version. They don't support the rule of law- they support the rule of men, and only their men should make the law.

275 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:00:54pm

re: #257 Zimriel


Unlike Killgore, and Charles, I don't think these problems invalidate the whole effort. We do in fact need a grassroots movement for fiscal sanity. If the budget goes under and the dollar fails, "all of this bullshit you think is so important - none of that's going to matter"

I understand that disagreement and we can have a rational debate about it. I take issue with the people who are in complete denial and often lie about their local Tea Party or deny that there's a problem.

276 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:00:58pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

Until they do use violence to enforce their views they are protected by the very same Constitutional guarantees you enjoy.

277 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:01:48pm

re: #264 Bloodnok

There's that "broad brush" you are so fond of complaining about.

Having trouble recognizing sarcasm today?

278 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #262 Scion9

A lot of people have apparently vouched that Paul isn't racist. In all truth, he probably isn't a dyed in the wool racist. He's however apparently not particularly put off by hanging out with them, working alongside them, and taking their checks either.

I beg to differ, after being exposed to more data about Ron Paul than I ever wanted to know. Ron Paul is a stone cold racist.

279 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:11pm

Robberies and murder are now being broken down by political beliefs?

280 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:37pm

re: #277 unrealizedviewpoint
Throw in a tag and remove any confusion!

281 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:37pm

re: #276 FurryOldGuyJeans

They are a very dangerous vigilante group.

282 Rancher  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:38pm

re: #245 Killgore Trout

They are not infiltrating. They are the organizers. The Paulians (and the Oath Keepers, truthers, etc) have been holding Tea Parties for years. Normal conservatives are now joining them. It's no mystery why the crazies are attending; it's their movement.


Were they called Tea Parties? I thought that the movement just sprang up spontaneously after some ones on air rant against Obama's spending and coming taxes.

283 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:41pm

re: #277 unrealizedviewpoint

Having trouble recognizing sarcasm today?

Right. Yeah, that must have been it.

284 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:44pm

re: #271 pingjockey

Ah, my bad. But, if you have a Tea Party and you have the Paulians and neonazis show up and don't let them speak, can they take the organizers to court for not allowing them to speak?

* * * *
"INVITED Speakers" means no last minute yahoos take the stage.

(Remember when some uninvited speaker grabbed the mike in front of the Pope & started ranting antisemitic stuff? It's lame to let UNINVITED speakers on stage)

285 zombie  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:51pm

re: #256 Charles

I think their justification would have gone like this: this guy's a low-life Mexican drug dealer anyway, so we send a message and at the same time grab some money for our group and ourselves.

They're already calling Mexicans "subhuman" on their website. From there it's a pretty short step to murder, even murder of children.

Possibly, possibly. I guess we'll have to wait for the trial to see what is finally revealed as evidence.

Whatever their excuse (or lack thereof), I fully support the use of the death penalty as the punishment for this crime. Beneath contemptible.

286 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:02:55pm

I'd like to see the DHS Report posted and "throbbing".

287 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:03:13pm

re: #274 Sharmuta

It's the unconstrained vision- the right wing version. They don't support the rule of law- they support the rule of men, and only their men should make the law.

A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles

Shiplord Kirel- I bet you'd enjoy this book. You too, Karmic.

288 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:03:29pm

re: #278 Charles

I love the graphic.

289 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:04:09pm

re: #281 Killgore Trout

They are a very dangerous vigilante group.

So they should lose any Constitutional guarantees strictly because of what they believe and talk about?

290 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:04:16pm

re: #284 alegrias
I agree totally. Just wanted a little clarification. We had a couple of Tea Parties out here in the sticks and it was apple ranchers, farmers, loggers, etc...No loonie tunes.

291 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:05:02pm

OT

In Bermuda today, the Uighurs are hosting a beach party at their seaside cottage and enjoying America's tax paid vacation from GITMO.

292 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:05:04pm

re: #213 alegrias

The Palestinians were never the big issue in the Middle East - not now, and certainly not for years prior.

The Palestinians have repeatedly had the opportunity for peace - or at least putting a counter proposal on the table instead of rejecting Israeli offers out of hand. Williams ignores the history and would rather think in terms of what this does for Israel at the Palestinians' expense.

Let's just ignore the fact that the Iranian mullahs use proxy armies - Hamas and Hizbullah to attack Israel, and with Ahmadinejad in control, those forces are going to be used more forcefully and overtly. Mousavi wasn't going to stop that policy either.

293 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:05:16pm

re: #289 FurryOldGuyJeans

So they should lose any Constitutional guarantees strictly because of what they believe and talk about?

Where did Killgore suggest that?

294 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:05:25pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

I love the graphic.

I think his face is on the Stone Mountain mural!

[Link: www.planetware.com...]

295 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:05:38pm

re: #258 Yankee Division Son

If TOTUS would just re-admonish Ahmadinehad to unclench, I'm sure things would calm down.

296 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:06:37pm

I have to wonder if these were left wing extremists if we'd be seeing the same arguments.

297 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:06:49pm

re: #271 pingjockey

Ah, my bad. But, if you have a Tea Party and you have the Paulians and neonazis show up and don't let them speak, can they take the organizers to court for not allowing them to speak?

I'm certain they would (at least) make loud noises about trying.

At that point, we, the people, would find out what we truly believe.

/Belief is nothing more, or less, than preparedness to act in a given way in a given circumstance -- paraphrase of William James

298 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:07:25pm

re: #292 lawhawk

The Palestinians were never the big issue in the Middle East - not now, and certainly not for years prior.

The Palestinians have repeatedly had the opportunity for peace - or at least putting a counter proposal on the table instead of rejecting Israeli offers out of hand. Williams ignores the history and would rather think in terms of what this does for Israel at the Palestinians' expense.

Let's just ignore the fact that the Iranian mullahs use proxy armies - Hamas and Hizbullah to attack Israel, and with Ahmadinejad in control, those forces are going to be used more forcefully and overtly. Mousavi wasn't going to stop that policy either.

* * * *
Agree totally the Palis can decide any day to lay down their terrorism, live in a democracy & behave and all will be groovy.

299 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:07:28pm

re: #228 MacDuff

3 petals = Shamrock
4 petals = 4 Leaf Clover
:)

"Uhm... I was told there would be no math."

300 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:07:54pm
301 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:08:06pm

re: #282 Rancher

The earliest contemporary Tea Party revival was about 2005 or 2006 where Paulians in Pantaloons dumped copies of the 9-11 report into the water. Here's last year's Tax Day Tea Party...
Tax Day Revolt - Ron Paul in DC 4/15/2008

302 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:08:28pm

BBL

303 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:08:35pm

re: #291 alegrias

OT

In Bermuda today, the Uighurs are hosting a beach party at their seaside cottage and enjoying America's tax paid vacation from GITMO.

How do I become an Uighur?

304 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:09:04pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

I have to wonder if these were left wing extremists if we'd be seeing the same arguments.

I'd be offering the very same Constitutional guarantees argument no matter who the group was.

305 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:09:05pm

Uh oh. Alleged secessionist charged with gun, drug charges.

Federal authorities in Seattle have filed gun and drug charges against an alleged member of a secessionist movement after agents seized a weapons cache that included four silencers, body armor and a fully automatic rifle.

Filings in the case, currently before the U.S. District Court in Seattle, offer glimpses into the "sovereign citizen" movement and, prosecutors contend, militia groups loosely affiliated with it.

Currently free on bond, Andrew Steven Gray was arrested early last month after a lengthy investigation involving a Snohomish County militia shooting range, according to recently unsealed documents filed in U.S. District Court. Gray, a Snohomish man with a previous felony conviction on drug charges, is alleged to have amassed a 21-gun collection at a Monroe storage unit, as well as operated a 300- to 500-plant marijuana grow at his home.

Prosecutors also contend that Gray, 32, has long-standing ties to the sovereign citizen movement, in which adherents believe state and federal law do not apply to them. Through his attorney, Gray has denied membership in any such group; that claim, though, seems to be at odds with a letter sent to the court on Gray's behalf from a leader in a Snohomish County secessionist movement.

"Regardless of the label applied or the specific form their ideology takes, their ideology fundamentally rests on the belief that the federal courts, federal law, and ultimately the federal government and all of its agencies have no legal authority to impose their will upon a 'sovereign citizen,'" the FBI special agent heading the case said in court documents.

306 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:09:39pm
307 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:10:01pm

The tea parties are the kind of pseudo-media stunt that will not work unless you have the support of the media. Lefties do this kind of thing all the time because they have the tacit support of the media-industrial complex; indeed, they are its political arm.
Crazies can dominate the tea party movement essentially because that is how the media want to portray all opposition to the Obama administration. In effect, the crazies have media support while legitimate protestors do not.

It is a hard reality for the activist-minded, but that doesn't change the facts or the dynamic.

308 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:10:13pm

Another uh oh. Clearfield County man pleads guilty to distributing explosives.

Perry Landis admitted that he sold illegal electric blasting caps to undercover police officers.

But he denied that his cabin in rural Clearfield County was a meeting place for militia members, instead saying he used it as a hunting camp.

Mr. Landis yesterday pleaded guilty in federal court to two counts of distributing explosive materials. He will be sentenced by U.S. District Judge Terrence F. McVerry on Sept. 11.

Mr. Landis could face anywhere from six to 24 months in prison based on the recommended sentencing guidelines range. The defense contends the high end of the sentence should only be 12 months, while the prosecution believes Mr. Landis should be sentenced consecutively for each of the two counts for a potential 24-month term.

According to Assistant U.S. Attorney Margaret Picking, Mr. Landis was under investigation, along with several others who expressed anti-government sentiment, by the FBI and Pennsylvania State Police. The investigation, which began in May 2005, led to several militia groups that operated under the umbrella organization Pennsylvania Citizens Militia. Ms. Picking said that Mr. Landis was part of the Brookville Tigers Militia and that the cabin was used for meetings. Undercover officers who infiltrated the group bought blasting caps from Mr. Landis for $2 each in September 2007 and March 2008.

Mr. Landis is one of five defendants charged with related crimes.

309 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:10:36pm

re: #278 Charles
Charles,
I think RP's a nut and he may well be a racist, but I wouldn't take this guy Kirchik's word for it... he has a slight agenda...
[Link: www.indegayforum.org...]

310 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:10:41pm

re: #300 Iron Fist

During the Clinton Administration some troops were asked to do a questionair that asked, among other things, if they would swear to be UN soldiers (I forget the exact wording on that) and if they would fire on US civillians in order to confiscate weapons that Congress had outlawed.

No such orders were given, not even the UN thing (I don't think our troops have ever been sent overseas as bluecaps), but it is somewhat unsettling that such a question would be asked.

Must have been after I was temporary medical retired, or not something the Navy as a whole was asked. I would have remembered such a thing.

311 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:10:53pm
312 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:11:01pm

re: #305 Charles

The sovereign citizen movement? Isn't that what Dr Tiller's killer belonged to?

313 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:11:20pm

re: #273 Iron Fist

That's a good point. Every year at Christmas time there are bike runs to raise money for Toys for Tots. HA, Outlaws, Pagans, whatever can and do take part in this. I've never heard of anyone telling them to go home. I don't think it likely that anyone would.

Giggle ,snort//
Homeowners Associations--the second most corrupt gangster filled creation of American civilization--- after Congress.

314 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:11:25pm

re: #305 Charles

Silence!

315 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:11:28pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

I have to wonder if these were left wing extremists if we'd be seeing the same arguments.

I'd have to wonder if we'd see leftists running full tilt to "claim" every moron as their own in some strange act of redemption.

316 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:12:35pm

re: #305 Charles

These secessionists should be (by UN mandate) be alloted their own country. I would be in favor of them placed in a buffer zone between Israel and a future Pali state

317 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:12:50pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

The earliest contemporary Tea Party revival was about 2005 or 2006 where Paulians in Pantaloons dumped copies of the 9-11 report into the water. Here's last year's Tax Day Tea Party...
Tax Day Revolt - Ron Paul in DC 4/15/2008

It's not surprising that Ron Paul would be holding a political event in DC while running for President.
This is not a Tea party.

318 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:12:58pm

re: #312 Sharmuta

The sovereign citizen movement? Isn't that what Dr Tiller's killer belonged to?

Yeah but my understanding is that it's not a formal organization. It's a sort of a broad label to describe a certain type of militia.

319 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:13:10pm

re: #289 FurryOldGuyJeans

So they should lose any Constitutional guarantees strictly because of what they believe and talk about?

Where has Kilgore or anyone else suggested that these people should lose their Constitutional rights?
As I have been telling lefties for 30 years, the Constitution does not guarantee immunity to criticism, disagreement, or ridicule; it does not guarantee access to forum of one's choice, and it does not guarantee a right to be taken seriously.

320 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:13:33pm

re: #309 tradewind

Charles,
I think RP's a nut and he may well be a racist, but I wouldn't take this guy Kirchik's word for it... he has a slight agenda...
[Link: www.indegayforum.org...]

I don't "take Kirchik's word for it" -- that's just the best single article to describe the facts about Ron Paul's racist past, before he cleaned up his act to look respectable. I'm not sure what your link is supposed to show me.

321 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:13:40pm
322 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:14:21pm

re: #317 unrealizedviewpoint


This is not a Tea party.


Heh.
Tea Party '07!

323 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:14:22pm
324 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:14:29pm

re: #291 alegrias

In Bermuda today, the Uighurs are hosting a beach party at their seaside cottage and enjoying America's tax paid vacation from GITMO.

Obama didn't even bother to tell the U.K.

/they're not pleased

325 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:14:37pm

Yikes. Parsippany man arrested for weapons cache was converting guns to illegal weapons for profit.

Prosecutors said a Parsippany man who was charged last week with possessing an arsenal of firearms in his home allegedly manufactured and converted guns into illegal automatic weapons at his home and sold them.

Adam Coughlan, 29, who was arrested Thursday in a raid of his Lake Hiawatha home by authorities, also is a flight risk because he may have ties to the "neo-Nazi" underground, Morris County Assistant Prosecutor Bradford Seabury said during a bail hearing. Since the arrest, investigators have been examining Coughlan's computers, documents and books, and found instruction manuals on how to convert guns into fully automatic weapons that are illegal in New Jersey and "pictures of neo-Nazi type literature," Seabury said.

More than 40 firearms and high-capacity ammunition were seized during the raid from the Roosevelt Avenue home, and Coughlan was charged with three counts of second-degree possession of assault weapons with a high-capacity detachable magazine, and one count of fourth-degree possession of high-capacity ammunition magazines, authorities said.

326 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:14:40pm

re: #305 Charles

Uh oh.
Currently free on bond, Andrew Steven Gray was arrested early last month after a lengthy investigation involving a Snohomish County militia shooting range, according to recently unsealed documents filed in U.S. District Court. Gray, a Snohomish man with a previous felony conviction on drug charges, is alleged to have amassed a 21-gun collection at a Monroe storage unit, as well as operated a 300- to 500-plant marijuana grow at his home.

bummer, duuude

327 right_on_target  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:15:14pm

re: #96 Sharmuta

Who is pinning this crime on right-wing extremism? It looks to me as thought their connection to extremism is being pointed out. I don't think that's the same thing.

___
It's pointed out to sell newspapers, period.

The same as:
"Marine" murders family.
"Policeman" beats wife.
"Preacher" caught shoplifting.

Shock value for the reader.

328 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:15:38pm

re: #321 Iron Fist

This was early in the Clinton Administration, '93-'94. It was only at 29 Palms, and only some of the people there. My impression was that it was a trial balloon to see what reaction would be like. I don't think they liked the answers they were given.

After I was out.

329 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:16:10pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

Heh.
Tea Party '07!

WOW ,,, 5 people attended!
Snacks were provided by sharing a box of Ritz Crackers!

//

330 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:16:23pm

re: #313 poteen

Giggle ,snort//
Homeowners Associations--the second most corrupt gangster filled creation of American civilization--- after Congress.

Where th' F did you live in the Eighties?

ALL homeowner associations are like that?

Linky, please.

331 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:16:53pm

re: #248 tradewind

You know that the US and Israel both must have some special ops people in country... maybe they will be able to somehow help them keep communications open...

Their covers might be blown in the process. Too valuable to risk. IF there are any ACTUALLY there...
/wink wink

332 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:17:25pm

Oop. 'Sovereigns' go against the law.

All Erie County Judge Michael Dunlavey wanted to know was whether Scott Robert Martin wanted a lawyer.

It was a reasonable question for Martin, who was about to face trial on charges he resisted sheriff's deputies to the point of being Tasered twice and bitten by a police dog while being evicted from his house in North East.

Martin's answer, in courtroom parlance, was not responsive.

He stood and read from a yellow sheet of paper:

"I am not an all-capital-letters name corporate fiction. I am not the defendant in this matter. I am not pro se. I am not representing myself or another entity. I am here.

"I am a sovereign man, a natural living man, living on the land, and a member of the Martin family. I have not accepted, I do not accept, nor will I accept your contract offer, or any other offers. I do not consent, nor give my permission for what you are doing to me, which is restraining me illegally."

Judges listening to such speeches elsewhere in the country have ordered the defendant's mental competency evaluated.

Dunlavey let Martin speak. But the judge confessed his befuddlement after Martin's trial, conviction and sentencing.

"I said, 'Don't you believe in the Constitution of the United States?'" Dunlavey said. "And he said, 'Yes, but it changed when Abraham Lincoln became president and we capitalized U.S. of A.' I didn't know what he was talking about."

Dunlavey and others in Erie County might have to learn to recognize the signs of Martin's antigovernment ideology, which is resurfacing here and nationwide amid the financial crisis.

333 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:17:43pm

re: #317 unrealizedviewpoint

This is not a Tea party.

Boston Tea Party 08

(yes, That's Ron Paul's son)

334 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:18:01pm

re: #227 Iron Fist

I was talking with Dark Falcon yesterday on how easy it is to infiltrate these kinds of grassroots grouyps. They don't have the time, money, or other resourcews to fully vet their volunteers. Someone shows up and volunteers for a job, they will likely be given that job because everyone else is too covered up. They are relieved to have a little more help.

It isn't like thes guys show up in a swastika armband and skinhead gang colors. When their true nature is revealed, people like this are told not to come back. Even that can get nasty, depending on how formal things are, how the corporation for the organization is structured (if they are that formal), etc. It can end in lawsuits and large expenses. Trust me on that. I've been down that road.

It sounds like this woman has been bouncing around for some time--in the links, you can see the more sane-sounding people on various boards realizing she's nuts.

As to tea parties and things, yes, it actually is acceptable for organizers to tell people they have to leave. I've seen people told by organizers to put away 'pro-Israel' signs that are racist or otherwise inappropriate. If you have the permit, the cops should help. No tea party organizers should feel they have to let Stormfront, et al, hang around something they put together.

335 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:18:16pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

Heh.
Tea Party '07!

So some time in the past months these guys Joe & Eirik threw this page up accepting credit for Tea parties. I'm sure Paulian's want to accept credit for the movement. But the movement not them.

336 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:18:22pm

re: #325 Charles

I'm sure he was just protecting our Constitutional rights.
/

337 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:19:18pm

re: #332 Charles

Dunlavey let Martin speak. But the judge confessed his befuddlement after Martin's trial, conviction and sentencing.

"I said, 'Don't you believe in the Constitution of the United States?'" Dunlavey said. "And he said, 'Yes, but it changed when Abraham Lincoln became president and we capitalized U.S. of A.' I didn't know what he was talking about."

I have read many books re: Lincoln, but thats a new one on me!

338 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:19:22pm

re: #285 zombie

This has all the elements of drug fueled murder. She supposedly has a criminal record. She's denied guilt. Someone with a 'cause' would claim it.If they'd gotten away they wouldn't have said a word. Just murdered more.

339 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:19:42pm

re: #300 Iron Fist

During the Clinton Administration some troops were asked to do a questionair that asked, among other things, if they would swear to be UN soldiers (I forget the exact wording on that) and if they would fire on US civillians in order to confiscate weapons that Congress had outlawed.

No such orders were given, not even the UN thing (I don't think our troops have ever been sent overseas as bluecaps), but it is somewhat unsettling that such a question would be asked.

I call bullshit. No such questionnaire was ever given.

340 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:20:22pm

re: #101 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sounds a lot like the radical Leftist groups back in the 70's, rob to fund their agenda.

And like Bob Mathews' group The Order, which counterfeited and robbed banks and armored cars to fund neonazi and KKK organizations.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

341 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:20:30pm

re: #332 Charles

'Yes, but it changed when Abraham Lincoln became president and we capitalized U.S. of A.'


Those libertarian extremists really hate Lincoln.

342 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:20:31pm

re: #249 shiplord kirel

This is bullshit and a strawman. Personally, I promise to disobey any order to shoot myself in the head or turn over my grandchildren to Sudanese slave traders,.

Good man!

343 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:21:01pm

re: #333 Killgore Trout

Boston Tea Party 08

(yes, That's Ron Paul's son)

Interesting how this was only added to YouTube 5 months ago. This is Paulian's trying to grab credit.

344 Syrah  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:21:08pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

I have to wonder if these were left wing extremists if we'd be seeing the same arguments.

There would be lots of the "no true scottsman" arguements where there was not silence.

345 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:21:38pm

OT: From HuffPo...
Clubbing Women in Iran

346 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:21:47pm
347 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:22:08pm

re: #338 poteen

This has all the elements of drug fueled murder.

Except these people were neither sellers or users (as far as we know), which is the typical motivation in drug crime.

348 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:22:18pm

All done arguing about Tea Parties, and who's involved in them. I wholeheartedly endorse the concept,and will continue (in my small way) to help organize and support them. Always attempting to keep the undesirables the hell out.

And those who downplay them from the sidelines instead of participating in a rational manner or even defending the idea--have a nice day. We'll keep on trying.

349 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:22:31pm

re: #323 Iron Fist

HA == Hell's Angels

Heh™

My run-ins with bikers were much better than with my homeowners assoc.

350 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:22:34pm

re: #343 unrealizedviewpoint

Interesting how this was only added to YouTube 5 months ago. This is Paulian's trying to grab credit.


Lol! It's all a grand conspiracy!
/Yeah, That'll work just fine

351 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:22:49pm

re: #325 Charles

Yikes. Parsippany man arrested for weapons cache was converting guns to illegal weapons for profit.

This is reaching epidemic proportions. It's going to be a busy summer which has yet to begin.

352 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:22:55pm

Here's Shawna Forde on video describing her "investigations:"

353 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:23:23pm

re: #303 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FVB ,, e-mail me when you get a chance please. I had yours on my work puter but we had to have it re-imaged and I lost it

Thanks

354 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:23:37pm

re: #344 Syrah

There would be lots of the "no true scottsman" arguements where there was not silence.

From the left, perhaps. But I don't think some Lizards are being intellectually honest here. If we were discussing left wing extremists, their political sentiments would be dissected on this thread.

355 2senseplain  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:24:15pm

re: #316 sattv4u2
What exactly have we Israelis done to you that you want to wish them on us? The neighbors we have cause us enough headaches.

356 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:24:59pm

re: #345 Killgore Trout

OT: From HuffPo...
Clubbing Women in Iran



sickening,, men just walking past like there's nothing unusual going on! What are the reactions at HuffPo. I would think they would be more incessed if the video were of Clubbing Baby Seals

357 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:25:03pm
358 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:25:08pm

The latest article on this in the Everett Herald Net confirms that their motive was to rob the victims of money and drugs to help further their anti-immigrant group.

[Link: www.heraldnet.com...]

EVERETT -- Shawna Forde believed organized criminals operating at the border between the U.S. and Mexico posed one of the greatest threats to the nation's security.

Drug traffickers. Human smugglers.

The Everett woman was convinced they were helping terrorists sneak radioactive "dirty bomb" materials into the U.S. She feared the federal government was in league with the United Nations and allowing what amounted to an illegal-immigrant invasion.

In a May 20 "border report" posted on the Web site of her Minutemen American Defense group, Forde warned readers that soon "you will walk out your door and think you were just transplanted into Mexico."

Forde spent much of the past three years scouring the Arizona desert for signs of criminals.

Now, she finds herself behind bars, the focus of a double murder investigation in Arizona with potential connections to a home invasion robbery in California and other crimes in Washington.

Pima County, Ariz., detectives on Friday described Forde leading a plot to finance her Minutemen activities by robbing suspected drug traffickers. She and two others are charged with a fatal May 30 home invasion at a suspected drug trafficker's home in Arivaca, Ariz.

Raul Flores, 29, and his daughter, Brisenia, 9, were killed when a group of armed people, including a woman, forced their way into the home. The child's mother traded gunfire with the attackers. She survived but remains hospitalized with gunshot wounds.

The Arivaca robbery was meant to raise money to fuel Forde's group, investigators said.

Detectives believe there are additional suspects and are aggressively continuing their investigation.

359 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:25:25pm

re: #321 Iron Fist

Most of which were composed of two words: the second word being "you" or "off".

360 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:25:27pm

re: #320 Charles

I suppose that I attributed an anti-Paul bias to Kirchik based on Paul's support of decisions such as Lawrence(Texas' antisodomy law overturn) and other votes he had cast in opposition various gay rights legislation . Racial bias didn't seem a topic that he had researched a lot.
Interesting that Kirchik was strongly opposed to linking the religious right to the murder of Dr Tiller..

361 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:25:33pm

re: #350 Killgore Trout

Lol! It's all a grand conspiracy!
/Yeah, That'll work just fine

Nobody's talking conspiracy but you. I'm simply pointing out that the video entitled Tea Party '08 was only recently added to YouTube (five months ago) by Paulian's. Where was it in '08? Maybe it was titled something else before it was fashionable to be called Tea party?

362 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:26:08pm

re: #355 2senseplain

What exactly have we Israelis done to you that you want to wish them on us? The neighbors we have cause us enough headaches.

hehehehe ,,, not "wishing them on you",, rather realizing that you take care of "problematic neighbors" rather than enabling them

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

I have to wonder if these were left wing extremists if we'd be seeing the same arguments.

I suspect that if a bunch of people associated with, say MeCha, had killed a white drug dealer's family and claimed it was for the cause, folks around here might take that connection seriously.

But when you're dealing with people like this, (home invaders who shoot children), there's such a fine line between ideology, bullshit, and simple criminal behavior.

364 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:26:31pm

re: #300 Iron Fist

During the Clinton Administration some troops were asked to do a questionair that asked, among other things, if they would swear to be UN soldiers (I forget the exact wording on that) and if they would fire on US civillians in order to confiscate weapons that Congress had outlawed.

No such orders were given, not even the UN thing (I don't think our troops have ever been sent overseas as bluecaps), but it is somewhat unsettling that such a question would be asked.

I found this document:
[Link: www.usdoj.gov...]
It appears to be a 1996 Clinton White House memo against a House Bill that would restrict the President's ability to place US forces under UN control. The money quote:
"In the present context, the President may determine that the purposes of a particular U.N. operation in which U.S. Armed Forces participate would be best served if those forces were placed under the operational or tactical control of an agent of the U.N., as well as under a U.N. senior military commander who was a foreign national (or a U.S. national who is not an active duty military officer). "
Does this help anyone?

365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:26:32pm

re: #353 sattv4u2

FVB ,, e-mail me when you get a chance please. I had yours on my work puter but we had to have it re-imaged and I lost it

Thanks

Check yer box...

366 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:26:36pm

re: #352 Charles

Here's Shawna Forde on video describing her "investigations:"

[Video]

Vigilantism. That video is almost "evidence" of sorts.

367 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:27:47pm

re: #351 Gus 802

This is reaching epidemic proportions. It's going to be a busy summer which has yet to begin.

I think this level of lawlessness has been around for a long time, we're just paying more attention to it. In that regard the withdrawn DHS memo has had its intended effect, to make law enforcement more aware of these problems. I've never heard anybody sane declare that right-wing extremism doesn't exist, or that the government shouldn't do something about it.

368 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:28:51pm

re: #351 Gus 802

I heard some commentator comparing this political atmosphere to that of the years just prior to the OKC bombing, when anti-government sentiment was being fueled ( supposedly) by the Clinton election and different SCOTUS decisions.
Let's hope not.

369 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:29:13pm

re: #365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Check yer box...

keep you stinkin ape hands off my box!

370 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:29:25pm

re: #363 SanFranciscoZionist

I doubt we'd have people dismissing the comments of investigators about the motivations.

371 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:29:27pm

re: #346 Iron Fist

For the political rallies I was involved in organizing we had to supplyu our own police protection (we were required to). We paid off-duty cops, and they showed up in uniform. The cops also agreed with our position (anti-gun control). I'm certain that they would have been more than happy to kick neo-Nazis, etc. out for us. There were no incidents, though. Nothing like that at all. It appears that things have changed, but I wonder how many Ronulans there actually are. I don't think it is that many.

I have no idea--I have no connection with this stuff--but people have expressed confusion about how to get rid of crazy people, and the answer is, your security asks them to leave. ;)

372 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:29:35pm

re: #361 unrealizedviewpoint

Nobody's talking conspiracy but you. I'm simply pointing out that the video entitled Tea Party '08 was only recently added to YouTube (five months ago) by Paulian's. Where was it in '08? Maybe it was titled something else before it was fashionable to be called Tea party?

My understanding is the first Paulian "Tea Party" was in Nov 2007 to kick-off Paul's presidential campaign. I don't think they called it a "Tea Party", but they said it would be like the Boston Tea Party, ie a notification to the authorities that the natives were mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

373 Gus 802  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:29:43pm

re: #367 KingKenrod

I think this level of lawlessness has been around for a long time, we're just paying more attention to it. In that regard the withdrawn DHS memo has had its intended effect, to make law enforcement more aware of these problems. I've never heard anybody sane declare that right-wing extremism doesn't exist, or that the government shouldn't do something about it.

It has been around for a long time however this year there is a noticeable spike including the last two involving Roeder and von Brunn.

374 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:30:46pm

re: #347 Sharmuta

Neither was the 9 yr.old.
Bush had a car theft warrant out of Wash. She had a 'checkered past/criminal record' per the links above. Their motivation was money. Their cause is not significant IMO.

375 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:31:09pm
376 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:31:14pm

re: #359 Macker

Most of which were composed of two words: the second word being "you" or "off".

One incident from the Navy I clearly remember (only seen on what was supposed to be raw video) was when Clinton visited an aircraft carrier a lot of enlisted were yelling at him things like "Mr. President, come on over, we want to shake your hand". The look on his face was one of pure disgust and he abruptly turned and let the Admiral who was showing him around lead him away.

377 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:32:10pm

It is no secret that I am a firearms enthusiast and a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. My favorite gun shop is a little store-front operation run by a retired public servant whom I will not identify more closely than that. He largely shares my view of Paulians and conspiraloons. Even so, he does not accept the anti-gun pretense that hunting is the only legitimate use for firearms, and makes no bones about the combat and personal defense orientation of his business.
This has the unfortunate effect of bringing a lot of crazies into the store. He does his best to shoo them away but he cannot refuse a legal sale without risking a lawsuit, or even a discrimination complaint in the case of what he believes are strawman buyers acting on behalf of Mexican gangs. He is thinking about getting out of the business because of this.

378 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:32:22pm

re: #364 NelsFree

I found this document:
[Link: www.usdoj.gov...]
It appears to be a 1996 Clinton White House memo against a House Bill that would restrict the President's ability to place US forces under UN control. The money quote:
"In the present context, the President may determine that the purposes of a particular U.N. operation in which U.S. Armed Forces participate would be best served if those forces were placed under the operational or tactical control of an agent of the U.N., as well as under a U.N. senior military commander who was a foreign national (or a U.S. national who is not an active duty military officer). "
Does this help anyone?

THAT I remember, and it was a BIG deal in San Diego at the time.

379 Syrah  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:32:33pm

re: #354 Sharmuta

From the left, perhaps. But I don't think some Lizards are being intellectually honest here. If we were discussing left wing extremists, their political sentiments would be dissected on this thread.

Yes ,I was refering to how the "left" would discuss it amongst themselves.

Its one thing to air your neighbors dirty laundry, something altogether different to air your own.

380 Syrah  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:32:54pm

Work calls.

Back later.

381 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:33:06pm

re: #375 Iron Fist

Oh, it's good news... there's the World Court at the Hague, where you're assured of a fair and unbiased trial on the evidence.
/snort/

382 auldtrafford  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:33:32pm

re: #70 zombie

I don't think it's fair to pin this crime as being due to right-wing extremism. The Sheriff himself in the article said the crime had "a financial motive" -- it was just some scuzzballs trying to rip off a drug-dealer, probably among the most common types of violent crime in the country.

* * *

Criminals come in all political stripes. Just because these particular criminals had a certain political orientation, does not discredit that orientation overall.

With all due respect to you and Charles, I think these guys' actual motivation is irrelevant. They look like right-wing extremists - and they may be. And their motivation could be political, or it might not.

To me, the point I thought Zombie was starting to make is that nobody really disputes the fact that dangerous people come from all the political strata. For me, the issue with the DHS report was its comparative (i.e., to other DHS reports) lack of specificity. It painted with a broad stroke that was unfair to those who are not fruitcakes - with the potential (especially in liberal political hands) to subject perfectly well-meaning folks to unwarranted scrutiny.

Bottom line in my book is that the Secretary withdrew the Report, and said it should not have been published (even to the limited, intended audience). The fact that there are a lot of right-wing fruitcakes that need to be watched is neither deniable, nor the issue with the report.

383 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:33:34pm

re: #378 FurryOldGuyJeans

We all did not think very much of such a lame brained idea!

384 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:33:43pm
385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:34:27pm

re: #384 Iron Fist

Some very pretty women in the Military...

386 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:34:55pm

re: #374 poteen

Neither was the 9 yr.old.
Bush had a car theft warrant out of Wash. She had a 'checkered past/criminal record' per the links above. Their motivation was money. Their cause is not significant IMO.

I doubt you'd say that if they were leftists.

387 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:34:58pm

Netanyahu Agrees to Demilitarized Palestinian State:

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]


Abbas: Netanyahu sabotages peace process:

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

388 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:35:04pm

re: #384 Iron Fist
Yep. And that's whose signature is on my retirement letter!

389 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:35:42pm

re: #377 shiplord kirel

It is no secret that I am a firearms enthusiast and a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. My favorite gun shop is a little store-front operation run by a retired public servant whom I will not identify more closely than that. He largely shares my view of Paulians and conspiraloons. Even so, he does not accept the anti-gun pretense that hunting is the only legitimate use for firearms, and makes no bones about the combat and personal defense orientation of his business.
This has the unfortunate effect of bringing a lot of crazies into the store. He does his best to shoo them away but he cannot refuse a legal sale without risking a lawsuit, or even a discrimination complaint in the case of what he believes are strawman buyers acting on behalf of Mexican gangs. He is thinking about getting out of the business because of this.

I imagine that's an ongoing concern to anyone who sells firearms and accessories for them. When you sell potato chips you don't have to worry that they're going to be used in a crime.

I'm sorry he feels he may need to shut his business down.

390 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:36:06pm

re: #380 Syrah

Work calls.

Back later.

do what I do,,, don't answer!

391 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:36:14pm

re: #361 unrealizedviewpoint

Tea Party Rally Planned for Ron Paul

Saturday, December 15, 2007


It's not evidence, it's fossils planted by god to test your faith

392 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:36:20pm

re: #384 Iron Fist

He loathed the military, that is for sure. Those may be the truest words he ever spoke or wrote. From what I've heard and seen, the loathing was mutual.

A lot of the crewmembers who asked to shake the man's hands are on record (video) of stating they loathed the man, but he was still CinC and was to be shown the respect the position engendered.

393 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:36:38pm

re: #387 KingKenrod
He told the truth. Abbas can't handle the truth!

394 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:36:42pm

re: #390 sattv4u2

Or practice what our kids did-selective hearing.

395 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:36:57pm
396 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:37:29pm

re: #394 irongrampa

Or practice what our kids did-selective hearing.

wha ,,, huh !?!?!?!?

398 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:38:02pm

re: #395 Iron Fist

I've got an academic award that I won in high school that is signed by Ronald Reagan. Pretty cool. I doubt we'll ever see the like of Reagan again. That is a pity, because we certainly need one.

My parents graduated from Cal State, and their diplomas were signed by Reagan who was then Gov.

My teaching credential, on the other hand, was signed by Schwartzenegger.

We do have some interesting politicians out here in California.

399 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:38:04pm

I'll go back to what Zimriel was saying and ask if we'd discount the political motivations of the Weatherman in their crime spree. Hey- they just wanted money, right? Their motivations are irrelevant then.

400 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:38:11pm

re: #395 Iron Fist
Yep. I guess it's not fair to ask for more than one such man in your lifetime. But, we sure could use a RWR or Winston Churchill about now.

401 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:38:23pm

re: #394 irongrampa

Or practice what our kids did-selective hearing.

I have my 14 year old look at me at repeat what I just told him to do. If he doesn't , 30 minutes is deducted from his X Box time

402 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:38:48pm

These people would stop existing if the repressive government weren't always pointing out their existence.

σαρκασμο&# 962;, for those who don't recognize it

403 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:39:54pm

re: #339 Zimriel

I call bullshit. No such questionnaire was ever given.

It was not a service wide survey. The 29 Palms survey was given to several hundred servicemen by a Lieutenant Commander Cunningham as part of a project he was doing for his Masters Degree.

404 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:39:58pm

Tea Party 2006

Truth!

405 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:39:58pm

PIMF "sarkasmos"

I see Firefox can't handle the Mac Greek keyboard characters. Sorry.

406 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:40:24pm
407 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:40:26pm

re: #376 FurryOldGuyJeans

One incident from the Navy I clearly remember (only seen on what was supposed to be raw video) was when Clinton visited an aircraft carrier a lot of enlisted were yelling at him things like "Mr. President, come on over, we want to shake your hand". The look on his face was one of pure disgust and he abruptly turned and let the Admiral who was showing him around lead him away.

That doesn't surprise me one bit. It wouldn't take much to imagine Оба́ма in the same boat (so to speak).

408 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:40:57pm

re: #405 Cato the Elder

PIMF "sarkasmos"

I see Firefox can't handle the Mac Greek keyboard characters. Sorry.


Mine does Mac & Cheese characters

409 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:41:12pm

re: #401 sattv4u2

I have my 14 year old look at me at repeat what I just told him to do. If he doesn't , 30 minutes is deducted from his X Box time

My husband, unfortunately, can actually record about thirty seconds worth of directions or information and feed it back to me, without actually putting any of it into his central brain processor. I fear he will pass this ability on the children.

410 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:41:25pm

re: #405 Cato the Elder

re: #408 sattv4u2

Mine does Mac & Cheese characters

damn ,, now i'm hungry!

411 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:41:41pm

re: #401 sattv4u2

My Dad had the Rule Of Three--either do or don't (as the situation required)--after the third time,you just resigned yourself.

412 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:41:59pm

BTW, have any Lizards had experiences, as students or employers, with Heald College?

413 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:42:18pm

re: #407 Macker

That doesn't surprise me one bit. It wouldn't take much to imagine Оба́ма in the same boat (so to speak).

So far he has shown the same level of respect for Army soldiers, so I am not too enthused about his support for those who serve.

414 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:42:19pm

re: #408 sattv4u2

Mine does Mac & Cheese characters

Heh. I know it's not LGF's fault, because I've posted Greek here before. Must be a Unicode (Unicorne?) thing.

415 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:43:25pm

re: #375 Iron Fist


It just occured to me, in this context, that when we were talking about the IMCJ and unlawful orders, where would being under UN command fit in there? The UN isn't bound by the UCMJ. That is an unpleasant thought.


I have begun a bit of research into US involvement in UN operations. I've found no instance of non-US control of US forces. I every case where the US was involved in UN sanctioned efforts, US retained control of own forces or was in control overall. Examples: Korea 1951, Lebanon 1982, Persian Gulf War 1991. It appears the America has never allowed control of military forces outside of the normal chain of command.
So, does anyone know of an exception?

416 right_on_target  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:43:39pm

re: #364 NelsFree

I found this document:
[Link: www.usdoj.gov...]
It appears to be a 1996 Clinton White House memo against a House Bill that would restrict the President's ability to place US forces under UN control. The money quote:
"In the present context, the President may determine that the purposes of a particular U.N. operation in which U.S. Armed Forces participate would be best served if those forces were placed under the operational or tactical control of an agent of the U.N., as well as under a U.N. senior military commander who was a foreign national (or a U.S. national who is not an active duty military officer). "
Does this help anyone?


___
I wouldn't put it past Obummer if he would hand over units of our armed forces to the UN! Think about it. Where would the loyalties of those soldiers be?

The POTUS would have given the order for the units to be under UN command. And he supposedly is the Commander-in-Chief. This decision would be purely POLITICAL.

As a soldier, I would assist in military actions with an ally but my orders better stem from US commanders.

Blue helmeted US soldiers - no way.

--- also ---
During WWII, there were Free French fighting the Vichy French. Think how those soldiers felt.

417 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:43:52pm

re: #413 FurryOldGuyJeans

What I'd like to know is how many people who are set to end their enlistment obligations will actually leave, due to who the current Commander in Chief is.

418 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:45:06pm

Does Arizona have the death penalty?

419 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:45:14pm

re: #403 Wendya

It was not a service wide survey. The 29 Palms survey was given to several hundred servicemen by a Lieutenant Commander Cunningham as part of a project he was doing for his Masters Degree.

So, it was part of a Master's Thesis? Linky to the paper?

420 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:45:25pm

re: MandyManners

Does Arizona have the death penalty?

YES!

421 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:45:51pm

re: #418 MandyManners

Does Arizona have the death penalty?

Yes.

422 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:46:22pm

re: #404 Killgore Trout

Tea Party 2006

[Video]

Truth!

Was that a Paulian function? Because it was set in Boston on the anniversary of the actual Boston Tea Party. It may be a coincidence. I watched half of it and didn't see anything about Paul, just a bunch of idiot truthers.

423 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:46:42pm

re: #419 NelsFree

So, it was part of a Master's Thesis? Linky to the paper?

Upding for the apostrophe in "Master's". Poor thing is always getting left out. Hurts its feelings.

424 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:46:58pm

re: #420 Macker

re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist


Pinky wish, quick!
/h

425 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:47:07pm
426 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:47:08pm

re: #417 Macker
All I can relate is from personal experience when Billy Jeff was president. The career counseleor had a helluva time getting folks to re-up. I had 5 of my troops say enough is enough. It was the operational tempo. We'd gutted the fleet and we were underway a lot more than normal.

427 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:47:33pm

re: #417 Macker

What I'd like to know is how many people who are set to end their enlistment obligations will actually leave, due to who the current Commander in Chief is.

I wonder what the spin will be if there are large groups that do actually choose to not re-up.

428 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:48:20pm

re: #386 Sharmuta

I doubt you'd say that if they were leftists.

Yes I would. The point is that political views of whatever stripe cannot be used as justification, symbolism, reason (insert term here) for the execution of a child because they are a witness. That is a purely murderous act. The perps state of mind is irrelevant. I'd call them sociopathic but the psych-Lizards might parse me on that for hours and there's a 2 yr. old waiting for grampa to bring the cookies.

429 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:48:21pm
430 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:48:23pm

Wow. This is a response to a post made by an acquaintance on facebook.

We may see armed suppression techniques this time around. I don't see the radical left relinquishing power. It is their divine right, in their opinion and they will use force to keep this power. Read some of the violent answers received here on FB by conservatives and the veiled threats that come with them. The scorn and hatred the left uses every day on those who dare disagree with them is palpable. It's a very scary world, my friend. And the mainstream news media are on board with the left.

431 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:48:38pm

re: #422 KingKenrod

Was that a Paulian function?


I don't think Ron Paul was officially involved but they are part of Ron Paul's demographic.

432 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:49:05pm

I just noticed what happens when you phonetically swap the first sounds of "Tea Party".

You get a "Pee Tardy"

It is all packaged as a subliminal appeal to ageing males.

Proof that Tea Parties are a conspiracy.

433 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:49:18pm

re: #418 MandyManners

You betcha'. Occasionally, even pre-trial...
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

434 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:49:29pm

re: #425 Iron Fist

I don't know of any exception, but it wouldn't have surprised me to learn that some of our troops in Europe during WWII had been under say, British command. And there were US citizens under other commands in WWI and China prior to WWII, but therse were volunteers that signed up to fight with our allies. That isn't really the same thing.

And that is all different than US soldiers being sent out as bluecaps under UN control. I'm utterly opposed to that.

The military was not an all-volunteer set-up during those times, we are now. That has a large ramification towards putting US troops under UN/Foreign National command.

435 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:49:57pm

re: #427 FurryOldGuyJeans
You'll know the one has trouble in the ranks when the 8-14 year NCOs start bailing out.

436 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:50:16pm

re: #417 Macker

What I'd like to know is how many people who are set to end their enlistment obligations will actually leave, due to who the current Commander in Chief is.

* * * *
I heard on radio this past week that many military folks are re-upping because back in the USA the economy is tanking.

437 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:50:18pm

re: #423 Cato the Elder

Upding for the apostrophe in "Master's". Poor thing is always getting left out. Hurts its feelings.


Thank you, Cato.
Cato, you are clearly the person to whom I need to address this pressing question. Your mastery of the verbal and written domain has no peers. Now, for the record, here is my question:
Hold on, I'm almost ready...
Okay. "When you italicize a sentence, does the period at the end get stretched?"
/Take your time...

438 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:51:12pm

re: #418 MandyManners

Does Arizona have the death penalty?

* * * *
Arizona is the country's biggest gangsta murder place, so yes.

439 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:51:34pm

It appears Paulian’s held events as early as 2006. Some were called Tea Parties beginning in November 2007. Don’t worry, Killgore's gonna post another link he found to add argument that ALL Tea parties are run by racists. His talents, primarily his ability to reverse engineer to prove his position astound many.
/

440 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:51:54pm

re: #399 Sharmuta

I'll go back to what Zimriel was saying and ask if we'd discount the political motivations of the Weatherman in their crime spree. Hey- they just wanted money, right? Their motivations are irrelevant then.

Well, I see that at least one of these people has an association with a right-wing group.

The group does not appear to be ethical in its aims, but I don't see that this particular group has a stated GROUP aim of committing crimes to further their agenda.

Zombie pointed out earlier that since this woman is claiming she had no involvement, then any reasons put forth are pure speculation on the part of somebody. Her motives may indeed have been "political", or they may have just been criminal greed. I don't think it's possible to say that just because she was associated with that group, then her motives must have been "politically driven" motives. They may have been; but we have not heard from her about it.

Her "motives" aren't irrelevant; but were her motives truly tied to her association with this group? I'm not sure we know that for certain yet.

441 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:52:24pm

re: #385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Some very pretty women in the Military...

* * * *
Monica Lewinsky worked at the Pentagon! Or for a defense outfit. Thongs are powerful weapons of destruction.

442 Jonn Lilyea  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:52:50pm

I'm certainly not going to defend the murdering thieves, but I would, however, respectfully point out that the only reference I can find on that website to "subhuman Mexicans" is about the members of the drug cartels who murder and otherwise victimize their fellow citizens.

Also, I respectfully caution folks who'd try to drag up Jason Eugene Bush (aka Gunny) and his reported special operations service. I can find only one Jason E. Bush who spent time in the Army - he was an Abrams tanker (19K MOS) and left the military as an E-4.

Anyone who would like to link his time as a tanker to the skills he needed to burglarize and murder face-to-face people is sorely mistaken. Tankers are real good at maintenance and blowing things up at long distances - the only skill related to breaking and entry has to do with crashing through walls with a 72-ton machine under them.

443 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:53:08pm

re: #431 Killgore Trout

I don't think Ron Paul was officially involved but they are part of Ron Paul's demographic.

Yes, I think you're right. The Kevin Barrett (Islamic Studies Professor at U of Wisconsin) guy is a Libertarian (ran for office in Wisconsin) and also a child abuser.

444 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:53:33pm

re: #428 poteen

I completely disagree. The motivation for any crime is relevant. Without a motivation, why would a person commit a crime in the first place? And you are conflating motivation with justification. Of course there is no justification in murdering a child. But detectives always look for motive in crimes. It's an integral part of the crime! In this case- they wanted money for a specific purpose, which was to fund their political activities.

445 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:54:24pm

re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes.

re: #438 alegrias

* * * *
Arizona is the country's biggest gangsta murder place, so yes.

If ever a case called for it, this is it.

446 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:54:36pm

re: #443 KingKenrod

Yes, I think you're right. The Kevin Barrett (Islamic Studies Professor at U of Wisconsin) guy is a Libertarian (ran for office in Wisconsin) and also a child abuser.

I knew I recognized that name.

447 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:54:43pm

re: #440 reine.de.tout

I'm going to put more stock in the words of investigators than a criminal like her.

448 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:55:31pm

re: #435 pingjockey

You'll know the one has trouble in the ranks when the 8-14 year NCOs start bailing out.

I know the media had a field day with retention issues Bush had, will they even remotely be as investigative with Obama?

449 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:55:34pm

re: #432 karmic_inquisitor

I just noticed what happens when you phonetically swap the first sounds of "Tea Party".

You get a "Pee Tardy"

It is all packaged as a subliminal appeal to ageing males.

Proof that Tea Parties are a conspiracy.

There's treatment for that!
[Link: www.drugs.com...]

450 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:55:39pm

re: #430 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wow. This is a response to a post made by an acquaintance on facebook.

We may see armed suppression techniques this time around. I don't see the radical left relinquishing power. It is their divine right, in their opinion and they will use force to keep this power. Read some of the violent answers received here on FB by conservatives and the veiled threats that come with them. The scorn and hatred the left uses every day on those who dare disagree with them is palpable. It's a very scary world, my friend. And the mainstream news media are on board with the left.

The fringe left said much the same about Bush. They were expecting a coup d'état to preempt the '08 elections.

Funny, that comment about "divine right", given that the left is per definitionem godless and commie.

On a nutbag nirther blog the other day I read a comment saying people should sort out in their minds who is friend and who foe now, before the shooting starts. So you can go right to picking off your neighborhood traitors when the balloon goes up. Of course this brave patriot's name was "Anonymous".

I live in a mixed neighborhood. If any right-wing extremist thugofreaks think they can waltz in here and rescue me from my minority neighbors, boy, are they in for a surprise.

451 eclectic infidel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:55:55pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

People like this don't oppose illegal immigration- they oppose all immigration.

Damn bigots- go join the KKK or the nazis.

It would be interesting to see if there is in fact some connection between some minutemen groups and neo-nazi ideology.

452 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:56:10pm

re: #448 FurryOldGuyJeans
You forgot yer sarcasm tag!

453 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:56:19pm

re: #448 FurryOldGuyJeans

Was that rhetorical?

454 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:56:28pm

re: #431 Killgore Trout

I don't think Ron Paul was officially involved but they are part of Ron Paul's demographic.

Thats pretty braod

White
Male
Older
2 eyes
English as primary language
Citizen
wears shoes
likes milk

/// sorry ,,but 6 degrees of seperation!

455 thesextons  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:57:29pm

Perhaps, instead of writing vague and unsupported policy memos about veterans who are returning from Iraq being a threat to their country by virtue of their right-of-center political leanings (pro life, anti illegal immigration, pro fiscal responsibility, pro sovereignty, pro strong defense against Muslim extremism), Napolitano should be focusing on disarming nutcase vigilantes on the border and using her position of power to effectively secure our borders.

As a Marine Corps combat veteran who served with 1st MEF in the opening stages of the invasion and liberation of Iraq, I think the DHS memo was a vague political statement that did nothing specific to advance the purpose of the DHS, but made all returning combat vets the subject of special scrutiny.

Are there right wing crazies? Yes. Should our government be monitoring their activities to the extent they are aimed at criminal activity? Yes. Should all returning veterans be viewed as victims or with a jaundiced eye as potential political criminals? No.

456 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:57:36pm

re: #399 Sharmuta

I'll go back to what Zimriel was saying and ask if we'd discount the political motivations of the Weatherman in their crime spree. Hey- they just wanted money, right? Their motivations are irrelevant then.

Yes! With their first fatality their motivations were irrelevant. They were criminals to be treated as such. If they'd executed a child so they wouldn't get caught, they would still be in prison. (Hopefully) And their movement would have died sooner. Despite what they think they are, murderous punks is all they amounted to. Same as Capone.

457 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:57:44pm

re: #164 shiplord kirel

There is a lot of cultural history behind this idea of robbing drug dealers to finance "worthy" causes. It is a frequent theme in right-wing "action adventure" fiction like the endless Mack Bolan series (600+ novels). The sensationalist writer Martin Caidin used it several times in his science fiction, notably in Exit Earth, where a ruthless billionaire uses stolen drug money to finance a Moon colony.
It rarely happens in real life, since robbing drug dealers is a notably risky fund-raising method, but it would be a familiar idea to anyone steeped in the lore of the far right.

That reminded of this story on AMW Last night. Chicago cop robs drug dealers.

I have the political spectrum divided into Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4. Q1 and Q2 are the right wing big and small., Q3 and Q4 are the left wing small and big.

Extremism falls outside the chart. We say it's right wing because they have essentially a racist motive wanting to return the country to a time of white skin only. Which it never has been. There was a group of soldiers here in the northwest who robbed a bank and when caught decided to blame it on their opposition to the Iraq war.

I guess these might have been atheist soldiers since they didn't find God once caught like they usually do. Instead they found politics. Criminals are thinking of the angles that will put doubt on their guilt and garner sympathy. Their religious and political motives need to be examined and found wanting. Criminals convene together in prisons and bars and gatherings and other such venues and plot. In these instances they can also be sold white nationalism, anarchy, etc. No doubt some of them idolize Bill Ayers as much as the KKK.

I think the point at LGF is to point out that it is very bad to let these people into your reading groups if you let them choose the books.

Organizations like the minutemen have to have standards that bar the common racist and felon from participation. Or they will become a magnet. I don't think grassroots groups are savvy about this.

Does it help to put out a DHS memo on right wing extremism without any qualifiers that a huge number of people misinterpret? No. The FEDs botched that effort. Is there danger from extremists in the US? Yes. Does it help to conflate the tea parties with this extremism? Only if it makes the organizers think twice about it's official membership.

I guess it all comes back to the Paulians.

458 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:57:46pm

re: #454 sattv4u2

That just described me.

459 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:58:09pm

re: #419 NelsFree

So, it was part of a Master's Thesis? Linky to the paper?

[Link: www.stormingmedia.us...]

460 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:58:10pm

re: #437 NelsFree

Thank you, Cato.
Cato, you are clearly the person to whom I need to address this pressing question. Your mastery of the verbal and written domain has no peers. Now, for the record, here is my question:
Hold on, I'm almost ready...
Okay. "When you italicize a sentence, does the period at the end get stretched?"
/Take your time...

No, but the comma in the middle gets tipsy!

(The period may feel stretched, but that's an illusion.)

;^)

461 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:58:31pm

re: #458 irongrampa

That just described me.

I'll send you a gallon of milk!

462 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:58:33pm

I hate to go OT like this but, I'd love for you to keep my mom in your thoughts and prayers. She's been on oxygen all hours for the past five days and my dad just called to tell me that he had to call 911 for her. Gotta' go.

463 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:58:50pm

re: #451 eclectic infidel

Read the thread, and you'll see apparently there is.

464 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:00pm

re: #454 sattv4u2

Don't be stupid. Ron Paul is very popular with the Thruther/Alex Jones crowd. You can google it yourself if you have doubts.

465 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:04pm

re: MandyManners

Go with God Mandy. So Say We All.

466 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:08pm

re: #462 MandyManners

I hate to go OT like this but, I'd love for you to keep my mom in your thoughts and prayers. She's been on oxygen all hours for the past five days and my dad just called to tell me that he had to call 911 for her. Gotta' go.

Our prayers go with you. Be strong!

467 Bloodnok  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:16pm

re: #462 MandyManners

I hate to go OT like this but, I'd love for you to keep my mom in your thoughts and prayers. She's been on oxygen all hours for the past five days and my dad just called to tell me that he had to call 911 for her. Gotta' go.

{Mandy} You got it.

468 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:25pm

re: #462 MandyManners

Very sorry to hear that.

469 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:38pm

{Mandy}

470 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:38pm

OT, speaking of nuts:

Islamic Saudi Academy gets approval to expand its school in Fairfax County, Northern Jihadist Virginia. (Yes, the all Democrat run, most populous county bordering Washington, DC)

(one of its valedictorians was sentenced for plotting to murder President Bush)

reported today in the Virginia edition of The Examiner.com

471 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:43pm

re: #461 sattv4u2

No beer, huh?


Shit.

472 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:52pm
473 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 12:59:57pm

re: #462 MandyManners
Bloody Hell! {Mandy}

474 Cathypop  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:00:00pm

re: #462 MandyManners
Go and be strong for your Dad. He needs it right now.

475 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:00:03pm

re: #464 Killgore Trout

Don't be stupid. Ron Paul is very popular with the Thruther/Alex Jones crowd. You can google it yourself if you have doubts.

I know he is, but to say that people that show up to a demonstartion are "part of his demographics", well as I stated , you could make the connection to EVERYONE there

476 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:00:06pm

re: irongrampa

Not here. Draws flies and little kids with spoons.

477 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:00:07pm

re: #300 Iron Fist

During the Clinton Administration some troops were asked to do a questionair that asked, among other things, if they would swear to be UN soldiers (I forget the exact wording on that) and if they would fire on US civillians in order to confiscate weapons that Congress had outlawed.

No such orders were given, not even the UN thing (I don't think our troops have ever been sent overseas as bluecaps), but it is somewhat unsettling that such a question would be asked.

I read some Nostradamus once that had a quatrain that the worlds big troubles will come when the ruler with the blue hat has survey over the three religions. The UN is "Terminator" like troubles.

478 Buck  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:00:25pm

re: MandyManners

I hate to go OT like this but, I'd love for you to keep my mom in your thoughts and prayers. She's been on oxygen all hours for the past five days and my dad just called to tell me that he had to call 911 for her. Gotta' go.

Go, and rest assured our good thoughts are with you.

479 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:00:25pm

re: #456 poteen

But without a motive, there is no reason to commit a crime.

480 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:00:39pm

re: hazzyday

Then again, he might be referring to UN control over Jerusalem.

481 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:00:54pm

re: #475 sattv4u2

Watch the clip I was referring to and you'll understand the context of my statement.

482 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:01:03pm

re: #462 MandyManners

I hate to go OT like this but, I'd love for you to keep my mom in your thoughts and prayers. She's been on oxygen all hours for the past five days and my dad just called to tell me that he had to call 911 for her. Gotta' go.


{Mandy} I'll be praying for your mom and all of you.

483 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:01:09pm

re: #431 Killgore Trout

I don't think Ron Paul was officially involved but they are part of Ron Paul's demographic.

Part of a demograpic - You just proved by your own statement that the brush you use is way too broad.

484 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:01:10pm

re: #462 MandyManners

Done.

485 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:01:24pm

re: #462 MandyManners

I hate to go OT like this but, I'd love for you to keep my mom in your thoughts and prayers. She's been on oxygen all hours for the past five days and my dad just called to tell me that he had to call 911 for her. Gotta' go.

You got it, Mandy. Most sincere best wishes to you and your family.

486 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:01:56pm

re: #472 Iron Fist

I don't know that I agree with you there. Maybe more than the accused, but the cops have a vested interest in portraying the accused in the most negative light possible. They probably wouldn't absolutely lie outright, but they might very well mislead...

I don't think so. They have no motive to lie about this- she does.

487 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:02:21pm

re: #481 Killgore Trout

Watch the clip I was referring to and you'll understand the context of my statement.

I did, and I do, but you've made these leaps before, and by your own admission "I don't think Ron Paul was officially involved

488 callahan23  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:02:34pm

{MandyManners} I wish and hope the best for your mother, your father, your whole family and of course You- Stay strong.

489 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:02:39pm
490 alegrias  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:02:49pm

OT
Moussavi's website has been taken down in Iran, and Moussavi hasn't been seen.

Fox News Reporting.

(It's a shame they can't both lose---Ed.)

Ugggh, EU socialist Javier Solana quoted wants to cooperate with Iran. Of course this old leftist would.

491 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:03:50pm
492 MJ  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:03:52pm

re: #443 KingKenrod

Yes, I think you're right. The Kevin Barrett (Islamic Studies Professor at U of Wisconsin) guy is a Libertarian (ran for office in Wisconsin) and also a child abuser.

Ah, Kevin Barrett. Haven't seen him around too Madison too much lately since his wife has a restraining order on him though he has violated it a few times.
One thing though- Barrett was never a professor at UW. He was hired as a lecturer for one semester for a course in Islam, but never as a Professor.

493 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:04:19pm

re: #444 Sharmuta

Correct. The motivation was the money. Money for the cause is their justification. The true purpose of the money remains to be seen but with the murder of the child any justification goes by the board, political or drug fueled. My early guess is on the latter.

494 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:04:20pm

re: #490 alegrias

OT
Moussavi's website has been taken down in Iran, and Moussavi hasn't been seen.

Fox News Reporting.

(It's a shame they can't both lose---Ed.)

Ugggh, EU socialist Javier Solana quoted wants to cooperate with Iran. Of course this old leftist would.

Latest Twitter gossip says they have tanks on the street in Tehran, near the interior ministry.

495 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:05:23pm

re: #470 alegrias

(one of its valedictorians was sentenced for plotting to murder President Bush)

What an over-achiever. Mom and Pop must be proud.re: #492 MJ

Ah, Kevin Barrett. Haven't seen him around too Madison too much lately since his wife has a restraining order on him though he has violated it a few times.
One thing though- Barrett was never a professor at UW. He was hired as a lecturer for one semester for a course in Islam, but never as a Professor.

So the guy who made the video lied. Imagine my surprise.

496 pingjockey  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:05:35pm

Later on! Play nice!

497 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:05:53pm

re: #444 Sharmuta

I completely disagree. The motivation for any crime is relevant. Without a motivation, why would a person commit a crime in the first place? And you are conflating motivation with justification. Of course there is no justification in murdering a child. But detectives always look for motive in crimes. It's an integral part of the crime! In this case- they wanted money for a specific purpose, which was to fund their political activities.

I would say, look at this woman's background in this case. She sounds genuinely delusional--this bit about the drug smugglers in the desert bringing in readioactive materials, and you can't touch the bodies, because the radioactivity will kill you on contact is deeply weird. She strikes me as someone who's unstable, and is using a set of beliefs to shore herself up and give herself justification for her screwed-up condition. I can see how a group of people in this mental state might easily somehow conflate crime and 'cause'.

The good news is that a series of immigration-policy activist groups seem to have realized she was nuts and moved her out. The bad news is that a nine-year-old is dead.

498 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:06:24pm

re: #442 Jonn Lilyea

If that's true "gunny" probably had a criminally inflated sense of self.

499 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:06:31pm

re: #495 KingKenrod

So the guy who made the video lied. Imagine my surprise.

I merged two replies together. Argh.

500 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:07:03pm

re: #459 Wendya

Excellent find, Wendya!

Cato, thank you for your thoroughly entertaining response to my, well, somewhat puerile inquiry. Now, what happens when the sentence approaches the speed of light!?
/h

501 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:07:19pm

re: #493 poteen

Correct. The motivation was the money. Money for the cause is their justification. The true purpose of the money remains to be seen but with the murder of the child any justification goes by the board, political or drug fueled. My early guess is on the latter.

They were not a rival drug gang, or cartel members due some money. They were political whack nuts.

But if you've got a link that shows these three were dealing drugs instead of politically driven freaks- give us the link.

502 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:07:54pm

Tiny Tim (Herbert Khaury) would be proud:

Ukuleles to play Beethoven at the "proms"
Reuters
Thu Jun 11, 10:38 am ET

LONDON (Reuters) – The unlikely sound of ukuleles will take over one of Britain's largest classical musical festivals this summer, with an orchestra of the mini guitars performing Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" in a play-along special.

The Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain (UOGB), sporting tuxedos and brandishing "bonsai guitars," will perform on a stage usually reserved for the world's greatest symphony musicians.

503 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:07:55pm

re: #454 sattv4u2

Thats pretty braod

White
Male
Older
2 eyes
English as primary language
Citizen
wears shoes
likes milk

/// sorry ,,but 6 degrees of seperation!

Please do not suggest that my father is in any way connect to Ron Paul.

///

504 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:07:56pm

re: #499 KingKenrod

I merged two replies together. Argh.

you're saving the planet by conserving bandwidth
Somwhere Al Gore is smiling that you're saving HIS invention!

505 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:08:08pm

re: #494 Pvt Bin Jammin

Latest Twitter gossip says they have tanks on the street in Tehran, near the interior ministry.

Wow!

506 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:08:39pm
507 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:09:04pm

re: #502 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well, it would help if there had been a link!

Ukuleles to play Beethoven at the "proms"

508 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:09:09pm

re: #479 Sharmuta

But without a motive, there is no reason to commit a crime.

Motives span a wide range.
Richard Ramirez motives for murder weren't monetary political or really coherent..

509 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:09:10pm

re: #459 Wendya

[Link: www.stormingmedia.us...]

Here is a link to the entire paper:

[Link: www.dtic.mil...]

This is legit and it caused quite a ruckus when one of the Marines smuggled a copy out to his congressman.

510 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:09:49pm

re: #505 Sharmuta

Wow!


Hopefully someone will get a pic.

511 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:09:50pm

re: #462 MandyManners

I hate to go OT like this but, I'd love for you to keep my mom in your thoughts and prayers. She's been on oxygen all hours for the past five days and my dad just called to tell me that he had to call 911 for her. Gotta' go.

Of course. Prayers on the way.

512 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:10:17pm

re: #454 sattv4u2

To be included in RP's demographic down here, you have to be under 25 and have a propensity for climbing telephone poles while holding onto a can of spray paint. And no decent spellers need apply...

513 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:10:30pm

re: #483 unrealizedviewpoint

Part of a demograpic - You just proved by your own statement that the brush you use is way too broad.


Dude, watch the clip that I was referring to...
Boston Tea Party for 9/11 Truth


Do you really consider it too broad of a bruch to consider these people Truthers?
This nonsense squabbling over obvious shit just gets tiresome.

514 KingKenrod  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:10:38pm

Tom Friedman: Bush's Iraq war helps moderate Middle East.

Second, for real politics to happen you need space. There are a million things to hate about President Bush’s costly and wrenching wars. But the fact is, in ousting Saddam in Iraq in 2003 and mobilizing the U.N. to push Syria out of Lebanon in 2005, he opened space for real democratic politics that had not existed in Iraq or Lebanon for decades.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

515 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:11:34pm
516 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:11:56pm

re: #494 Pvt Bin Jammin

Latest Twitter gossip says they have tanks on the street in Tehran, near the interior ministry.

Is that unusual following an election?

517 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:12:19pm

re: #477 hazzyday

From The Centuries, by Nostradamus edited by Erika Cheetham as, The Prophecies of Nostradamus:
Century 1, 47, " The speeches of Lake Leman (Geneva) will become angered, the days will drag out into weeks, then months, then years, then all will fail. The authorities will condemn their useless powers."
That one?

518 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:12:25pm

re: #506 Iron Fist

They have every motive to lie about it. They want a conviction. They are putting out the storyline that they will use to prosecute her. Proving how much that storyline actually reflects the facts is a big part of any trial that will happen. Even there there may be evidence suppressed, witness testimony that may or may not be true (odds are one of the three turns State's evidence), etc.

Determining the truth of it is why they have a trial.

They have motive to be honest in their statements, because falsifying evidence could cost them their jobs. I doubt these investigators want to lose their job over this woman. It's more likely they want justice for that child.

519 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:12:51pm

re: #509 Wendya

Somehow I can't think ' UN blue helmets ' without the phrase ' child molesters' creeping in there...

520 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:12:53pm

re: #510 Pvt Bin Jammin

Hopefully someone will get a pic.

Trying to pull up Tehran Bureau- it's loading waaay slow.

521 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:13:06pm

re: #506 Iron Fist

They have every motive to lie about it. They want a conviction. They are putting out the storyline that they will use to prosecute her. Proving how much that storyline actually reflects the facts is a big part of any trial that will happen. Even there there may be evidence suppressed, witness testimony that may or may not be true (odds are one of the three turns State's evidence), etc.

Determining the truth of it is why they have a trial.

I'm wondering how the information about the criminals got out? Here is Seattle everything is censored til everyone has been identified. there are many crimes where the identity information never occurs in the media because the crimers get too old to be newsworthy when the information is released.

522 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:13:41pm

re: #506 Iron Fist

They have every motive to lie about it. They want a conviction. They are putting out the storyline that they will use to prosecute her. Proving how much that storyline actually reflects the facts is a big part of any trial that will happen. Even there there may be evidence suppressed, witness testimony that may or may not be true (odds are one of the three turns State's evidence), etc.

Determining the truth of it is why they have a trial.

If they have physical evidence of home invasion and a double homicide, I don't think they have any reason to embellish.

523 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:13:59pm

Can't get to Tehran Bureau.

524 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:14:05pm

re: #490 alegrias

OT
Moussavi's website has been taken down in Iran, and Moussavi hasn't been seen.

Fox News Reporting.

(It's a shame they can't both lose---Ed.)

Ugggh, EU socialist Javier Solana quoted wants to cooperate with Iran. Of course this old leftist would.


Ahmadinejad brushes off Iran election violence
AP
By ANNA JOHNSON and NASSER KARIMI, Associated Press Writers Anna Johnson And Nasser Karimi, Associated Press Writers – 1 hr 8 mins ago

TEHRAN, Iran – Protesters set fires and smashed store windows Sunday in a second day of violence as groups challenging President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's re-election tried to keep pressure on authorities. Anti-riot police lashed back and the regime blocked Internet sites used to rally the pro-reform campaign.

Ahmadinejad dismissed Tehran's worst unrest in a decade as "not important," comparing it to passions after a football match. He insisted Friday's vote was "real and free" and the results showing his landslide victory were fair and legitimate. Along Tehran's Vali Asr street — where activists supporting rival candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi held a huge pre-election rally last week — tens of thousands marched in support of Ahmadinejad, waving Iranian flags and shouting his name.

Mousavi sent a letter to the Guardian Council — a powerful clerical group — calling for the election to be canceled. He has claimed that he was the real winner.

525 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:14:17pm

re: #516 SanFranciscoZionist

Is that unusual following an election?

I suppose anything's possible with that regime. If true, shades of Tiennamen Square.

526 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:14:18pm
527 monique  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:15:38pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

You're absolutely right.

The people who seek recognition for "patrolling our borders" do nothing more than by happen-chance stumble on illegals trying to cross the border..steal their money and any other valuables they may have, then "release" the perps to continue on their journey.

So they break the law in the name of enforcing the law. Fortunately, there aren't very many of them.

I resent the fact that people like that are even remotely associated conservatives. I doubt their political leanings are anywhere near right.

They're a pain in the ass to the CBP agents, and hamper their ability to do their job.

528 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:16:20pm

re: #523 Sharmuta
Joe the SenatorVeep says no worries, we're all gonna talk...
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

529 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:16:31pm

We have quite a diversity of views here.
One thing is certain, though: Violent Crazies are heaven's gift to the left-leaning establishment media. The media dolts aren't trying to mainstream the likes of Alex Jones because they have gone troofer on us; they are doing it to demonize the opposition to the left-media cultural paradigm by anointing the loons as spokes-people for the opposition.
(It goes without saying that a secondary objective is to exploit the Crazy demographic economically, a reliable constant of media activism.)

530 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:16:56pm

re: #513 Killgore Trout

Dude, watch the clip that I was referring to...
Boston Tea Party for 9/11 Truth


Do you really consider it too broad of a bruch to consider these people Truthers?
This nonsense squabbling over obvious shit just gets tiresome.

You maybe just have an identification problem, ie: to you it maybe appears everybody and everything is the same. I don't know. You're the one who said Ron Paul was not involved in this event.

531 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:16:58pm

If I was a cop/investigator working on a case involving the murder of a child- there is no way I would fuck that up for anything. That girl deserves justice.

532 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:16:58pm

re: #525 Pvt Bin Jammin

I suppose anything's possible with that regime. If true, shades of Tiennamen Square.

re: #526 Iron Fist

You are in San Francisco. You are thinking about the pink paper-mache tanks Code Pink has. These would likely be old Soviet tanks. If they are anything like the Iranian air force it is surprising that they still run.

Doubt these are pink. (And Code Pink was last seen in Cairo!)

Just wondering if this is SOP for the regime--make a small show of force to tell any cranky voters to go home--or if it actually indicates that something is building.

533 callahan23  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17:21pm

re: #526 Iron Fist

You are in San Francisco. You are thinking about the pink paper-mache tanks Code Pink has. These would likely be old Soviet tanks. If they are anything like the Iranian air force it is surprising that they still run.

Their air force is flying amongst other types of aircraft the F-14 Tomcat provided to the then Shah regime.
(If I don't tell you things you've long already knew).

534 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17:51pm

For any who didn't see it earlier, here's a link to Winston06's blog.
It's a good place for information on what's happening in Iran.

535 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17:56pm

Dang! From the tweets:

"de pajamasmedia :Reports are circulating that Venezuela has sent anti-riot troops to Tehran to help Ahmadinejah "

No link to verify.

536 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17:57pm

re: #523 Sharmuta

Can't get to Tehran Bureau.

I have three Iaranian TV channels up on monitors here at work. Only one has shown any footage of the protests, and as of yet i haven't "seen" any tanks

537 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:18:02pm

re: #526 Iron Fist

You are in San Francisco. You are thinking about the pink paper-mache tanks Code Pink has. These would likely be old Soviet tanks. If they are anything like the Iranian air force it is surprising that they still run.

Old or not, they still over-match any person that gets in the way. And the Revolutionary Guard has shown they have no compunctions about sending someone to Paradise early.

538 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:18:21pm

re: #517 NelsFree

From The Centuries, by Nostradamus edited by Erika Cheetham as, The Prophecies of Nostradamus:
Century 1, 47, " The speeches of Lake Leman (Geneva) will become angered, the days will drag out into weeks, then months, then years, then all will fail. The authorities will condemn their useless powers."
That one?

Hmmm. maybe not. The word blue was in it. But I was reading an interpretation. Geneva Speeches could be interpreted as blue.

Lol. I am sure Charles doesn't want the blog to become a haven for Nostradamus conspiracies. That is the only thing of Nostradamus that ever stuck in my mind. The mind is a funny thing. Insert images into the subconscious often enough and it becomes habit. Then only one's conscience can deliver them back out correctly. That is why one wants good company in life. Frodo's and Bilbo's

539 Flyers1974  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:18:23pm

re: #456 poteen

Yes! With their first fatality their motivations were irrelevant. They were criminals to be treated as such. If they'd executed a child so they wouldn't get caught, they would still be in prison. (Hopefully) And their movement would have died sooner. Despite what they think they are, murderous punks is all they amounted to. Same as Capone.

I don't doubt that you would deem their motivations irrelevant and it may well be that they were irrelevant. Put another way, if today, some communist committed a murder for money, allegedly to support the spread of communism, you don't think that a great many conservatives would use this as evidence of the increasing craziness of the left? And that it was a result of Obama's presidency? That the murderer's communist identity was very significant?

540 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:18:56pm

re: #537 FurryOldGuyJeans

Old or not, they still over-match any person that gets in the way. And the Revolutionary Guard has shown they have no compunctions about sending someone to Paradise early.

Yeah. You don't need state-of-the-art equipment to kill unarmed protestors.

541 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:19:00pm

re: #523 Sharmuta

re: #536 sattv4u2

I have three Iaranian IRANIAN TV channels up on monitors here at work. Only one has shown any footage of the protests, and as of yet i haven't "seen" any tanks

pimf

542 callahan23  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:19:23pm

re: #535 Pvt Bin Jammin

Dang! From the tweets:

"de pajamasmedia :Reports are circulating that Venezuela has sent anti-riot troops to Tehran to help Ahmadinejah "

No link to verify.

That would be a darn long haul to get them there.

543 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:19:26pm

re: #501 Sharmuta

They were not a rival drug gang, or cartel members due some money. They were political whack nuts.

But if you've got a link that shows these three were dealing drugs instead of politically driven freaks- give us the link.

Just the criminal record links above
.here i think...

My guess, as I've said , is that they've graduated.

The husband who was murdered has a history of being involved in narcotics and there was an anticipation that there would be a considerable amount of cash at this location as well as the possibility of drugs," Dupnik said.

Cash is one thing, you gotta sell the drugs.

544 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:19:31pm

re: #512 tradewind

To be included in RP's demographic down here, you have to be under 25 and have a propensity for climbing telephone poles while holding onto a can of spray paint. And no decent spellers need apply...

Reminds me of a pickup truck I saw with "Ron Paul" and some other garbage sprayed across the tailgate.

545 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:19:40pm

re: #534 pre-Boomer Marine brat

For any who didn't see it earlier, here's a link to Winston06's blog.
It's a good place for information on what's happening in Iran.

BTW, Winston06 is saying the regime has NOT unleashed the Basij.

hmmm

546 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:19:46pm

re: #535 Pvt Bin Jammin

Dang! From the tweets:

"de pajamasmedia :Reports are circulating that Venezuela has sent anti-riot troops to Tehran to help Ahmadinejah "

No link to verify.

That sounds like bullshit, but if true is very interesting!

547 pink freud  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:19:56pm

re: #459 Wendya

[Link: www.stormingmedia.us...]

Wow. You're good.

548 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:20:55pm

re: #507 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well, it would help if there had been a link!

Ukuleles to play Beethoven at the "proms"

did someone say ukulele?

Please Ron Paul, send your White Power groups to our Tea Party.
We get plenny' Aloha from da bruddahs!

549 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:21:30pm

re: #527 monique

You're absolutely right.

The people who seek recognition for "patrolling our borders" do nothing more than by happen-chance stumble on illegals trying to cross the border..steal their money and any other valuables they may have, then "release" the perps to continue on their journey.

So they break the law in the name of enforcing the law. Fortunately, there aren't very many of them.

I resent the fact that people like that are even remotely associated conservatives. I doubt their political leanings are anywhere near right.

They're a pain in the ass to the CBP agents, and hamper their ability to do their job.

That;s not what this story is about. huh? What?

550 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:21:53pm

re: #545 pre-Boomer Marine brat

BTW, Winston06 is saying the regime has NOT unleashed the Basij.

hmmm


Earlier, one of the tweets said the people had taken over one of the Basij bases.

551 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:22:16pm
552 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:22:33pm

re: #529 shiplord kirel

I'm not sure why there's such an intense focus on right-wing crazies all of a sudden... there always have been such, and there always will be. Just as many or more on the left, only it's not PC to mention their causes/agendas/religion. Unless the perp is of European descent , often there won't be a picture. You could have gone two days reading the NYT before you found out that the shooter in AR was a crazy jihadi...that is, until Fox forced their hand.
Expose every crazy right winger who goes ballistic... no problem, I am all for it. Just make sure that the leftist nuts get the same treatment.

553 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:22:49pm

re: #548 IslandLibertarian

did someone say ukulele?

Please Ron Paul, send your White Power groups to our Tea Party.
We get plenny' Aloha from da bruddahs!

Oooh, some good ol' fashioned Haole bashing! ;)

554 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:23:06pm

re: #546 SanFranciscoZionist

That sounds like bullshit, but if true is very interesting!


That the trouble with Twitter. There's been somebody posting there for two days saying that Michael Jackson has died. LOL

555 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:23:50pm

re: #543 poteen

You have no evidence that they were indeed drug dealers, but you do have evidence of their political motivations, but you will dismiss the political motivations to fit your favored hypothesis.

Please tell me you're not a biochemist.

556 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:23:57pm

re: #547 pink freud

Wow. You're good.

If it's "out there", I can find it. See my #509 for a link to the complete paper.

557 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:24:09pm
558 Macker  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:24:22pm

re: #551 Iron Fist

Did you know that we actually shredded our F-14s when we retired them so that Iran couldnt possibly get stolen parts for theirs? I've seen the video. I almost cried. I'm not a huge airplane fan simply because I know I could never be a pilot (and get to wield all that glorious firepower :-), but the F-14 has always had a special place in my heart. I assume that we still have a few of them in museums. It'd be a damn shame if the only ones left in the world belong to the Mad Mullahs.

You got that right. If that were the case, then I guess if/when they go up against our forces then they must be blown out of the sky!

559 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #553 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oooh, some good ol' fashioned Haole bashing! ;)

no, just education for incorrect haoles...

560 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:24:35pm

re: #539 Flyers1974

I don't doubt that you would deem their motivations irrelevant and it may well be that they were irrelevant. Put another way, if today, some communist committed a murder for money, allegedly to support the spread of communism, you don't think that a great many conservatives would use this as evidence of the increasing craziness of the left? And that it was a result of Obama's presidency? That the murderer's communist identity was very significant?

Sounds like Bill Ayers to me.

561 callahan23  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:26:05pm

re: #551 Iron Fist
The F-14 was a real beauty of an airplane. I didn't know of the shredding part though, what a shame. My heart is bleeding.

562 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:26:15pm

re: #555 Sharmuta

You have no evidence that they were indeed drug dealers, but you do have evidence of their political motivations, but you will dismiss the political motivations to fit your favored hypothesis.

Please tell me you're not a biochemist.

But were the political motivations just a guise to shield them from punishment if they got caught?

563 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:26:17pm

re: #550 Pvt Bin Jammin

Earlier, one of the tweets said the people had taken over one of the Basij bases.

double hmmm

oh to have a fly on the wall over there!

564 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:26:52pm

re: #562 hazzyday

But were the political motivations just a guise to shield them from punishment if they got caught?

Motives don't offer shields from punishment.

565 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:26:53pm

re: #553 FurryOldGuyJeans

also, did you watch the video?
very touching, but no place for a confederate flag or WP cross...

566 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:28:05pm

Could this be Perestroika?


The Power Behind Ahmadinejad's Disputed Win: Ayatullah Khamenei
Time.com (via Yahoo!)
By TONY KARON Tony Karon – 55 mins ago

Despite the convulsions in Tehran's streets in the aftermath of a disputed presidential election, Iranians - and the smart folks in Washington - know that Iran's presidency is not the seat of executive power. Unelected mullahs hold veto power over the decisions of the elected government, and their Supreme Leader, currently Ayatullah Ali Khamenei, must approve all political policies and make the key foreign policy and security decisions. No one can run for president without the approval of the clerics, and they routinely narrow the field to those deemed acceptable within the parameters of the Islamic Revolution.

Still, the presidency is far from unimportant. It is a critical part of the "managed democracy" that the ruling clerics have used to govern Iran for the last three decades. Khamenei himself is a former President. The job is important enough to have brought millions of Iranians to the polls on Friday, and thousands into the streets afterwards - both supporters of the apparent loser, reformist candidate Mir-Hossein Mousavi, and members of the radical volunteer paramilitary forces who support the reelected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. (See pictures of Iran's controversial and violent election)

Yet Khamenei has now done something extraordinary to the regime's democratic apparatus. Even though Iran's Electoral Commission allows three days to hear challenges before presenting results to Khamenei for approval, the Supreme Leader rushed to put his seal of approval on the outcome, and warned all political factions to refrain from challenging it. His imposition of the result, just hours after the polls closed, stunned the country as doubts about the legitimacy of vote were voiced widely both inside and outside Iran. ((Read TIME"s coverage of Iran's post-election street fighting)

The very way Iran is ruled is now in convulsion. Since the revolution of 1979 brought on the Islamic Republic, Iran has been governed by a power structure that combines unelected clerics with an elected legislature and presidency. Under the revolution's principle of velayat e-faqi or "guardianship of the jurisprudent," ultimate political authority rests in the hands of the Shi'ite clergy, first among them the Supreme Leader, chosen by an unelected Assembly of Experts. Still, the regime always sought to affirm its legitimacy through holding elections for parliament and the president.

567 irongrampa  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:28:06pm

re: #526 Iron Fist

Be interesting to know what the operational readiness is overall between the Revolutionary Guard and the regular army. I'd bet the only advantage would be in numbers.

568 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:28:17pm

re: #563 pre-Boomer Marine brat

double hmmm

oh to have a fly on the wall over there!

No kidding. ABC has apparently had their offices raided and the BBC told to get out. We may not know the truth of this for eons.

569 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:28:21pm

re: #563 pre-Boomer Marine brat

oh to have a fly on the wall over there


Betting that we have plenty of them... hope they report back soon.

570 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:28:23pm
571 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:28:36pm

re: #539 Flyers1974

I don't doubt that you would deem their motivations irrelevant and it may well be that they were irrelevant. Put another way, if today, some communist committed a murder for money, allegedly to support the spread of communism, you don't think that a great many conservatives would use this as evidence of the increasing craziness of the left? And that it was a result of Obama's presidency? That the murderer's communist identity was very significant?

Quite likely, and the communists, rightly, would disavow any such suggestion. Because even dirty commie bastards don't want to be identified as child killers.
No political movement can justify killing like this. "For the cause", is all they can say, and it won't fly in the end .It never does.

572 Scion9  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:28:48pm

re: #564 Sharmuta

Motives don't offer shields from punishment.

Like hell they don't. Although, if that was their goal it was an outright stupid choice of a cause since it will probably produce the opposite result.

573 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:30:14pm
574 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:30:17pm

re: #564 Sharmuta

Motives don't offer shields from punishment.

sorry, but they do. At sentencing such thijgs ARE taken into consideration. Could be the difference between jail time and probabtion. Also how MUCH jail time and what kind of facility

575 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:30:30pm

re: #572 Scion9

Like hell they don't. Although, if that was their goal it was an outright stupid choice of a cause since it will probably produce the opposite result.

Name an instance where motive for murder allowed the murder to escape punishment.

576 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:30:38pm

re: #568 Pvt Bin Jammin

Wonder how Amanpour is doing? Saw her reporting wearing a hijab that looked like it was made from the red lace curtains in a whorehouse.

577 voirdire  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:30:59pm

Sure tough to blame those Black Panthers with all these right-wing extremists trying to vote.

578 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:31:13pm

re: #568 Pvt Bin Jammin


Correction, NBC rather than ABC.

579 Scion9  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:31:33pm

re: #575 Sharmuta

Name an instance where motive for murder allowed the murder to escape punishment.

You have never heard of non-criminal homocide?

580 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:31:52pm

re: #564 Sharmuta

self defense
battered wife syndrome
protection from continued abuse

581 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:32:21pm

re: #575 Sharmuta

Name an instance where motive for murder allowed the murder to escape punishment.

burning bed

582 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:32:23pm

re: #564 Sharmuta

Motives don't offer shields from punishment.

No but criminals have been couching their crimes to make themselves appear as Robin Hoods to their targeted set of supporters. Anything to raise doubt. The modern criminal class has become skilled at this as they exchange information with each other. They want to blur the lines so they can get close to you and use innocent people to provide cover for their crimes. We want to make the lines distinct so they can't get in the door.

583 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:32:32pm

re: #576 tradewind

Wonder how Amanpour is doing? Saw her reporting wearing a hijab that looked like it was made from the red lace curtains in a whorehouse.


I haven't seen her yet, LOL, but I understand she's over there.

584 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:32:32pm

re: #574 sattv4u2

sorry, but they do. At sentencing such thijgs ARE taken into consideration. Could be the difference between jail time and probabtion. Also how MUCH jail time and what kind of facility

Yeah- things like other circumstances, not motive. Like- are they insane? Or- do they have a prior record? These things are taken into consideration, but motive? No.

585 Taqyia2Me  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:33:10pm

Thoughts and prayers for Mandy's mom, Mandy and their family...

586 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:33:27pm
587 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:34:00pm

re: #581 IslandLibertarian

OK- you win.

588 Flyers1974  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:35:07pm

re: #560 hazzyday

Sounds like Bill Ayers to me.

And would conservatives deem his place on the political spectrum important if Ayers did this today? Or would they say a criminal is a criminal is a criminal, who cares?

589 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:35:55pm
590 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:36:37pm

re: #584 Sharmuta

Yeah- things like other circumstances, not motive. Like- are they insane? Or- do they have a prior record? These things are taken into consideration, but motive? No.

no ,, MOTIVE ,,,

Battered wives
Self defens
As I stated, those things (motives) ARE taken into consideration at sentencing!

591 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:36:53pm

re: #555 Sharmuta

You have no evidence that they were indeed drug dealers, but you do have evidence of their political motivations, but you will dismiss the political motivations to fit your favored hypothesis.

Please tell me you're not a biochemist.

Two of the three people arrested in connection with the May 30 murders of an Arivaca man and his daughter headed up a splinter Minuteman group, and were looking for drugs and money to fund their efforts to keep illegal immigrants and drug runners out of the country, sheriff’s officials said.

from here

No I'm not. Are you.

592 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:38:01pm

re: #587 Sharmuta

OK- you win.

not looking to win...just giving answers...

593 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:39:20pm

re: #557 Iron Fist

I wouldn't think it were normal, but I don't know. I was trying to make a joke and slam Code Pink and the Iranians at the same time. I guess that career in stand-up I've always wanted is going to have to be put on hold.

[sob]

No...no...really...it was funny...I just get fixated on political stuff...

Oh dear.

594 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:40:15pm

re: #586 Iron Fist

Stalin killed children by the trainload. Communists all over the world have followed his example and butchered millions of people, including thousands (if not millions) of children.

It is a little late for the Communists to be concerned about getting blood on their hands. They've been bathing in blood for going on a century now.

OK OK! The new and improved American commie bastards///
You know who I mean.

595 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:40:41pm

re: #591 poteen

Did you miss this part?

and were looking for drugs and money to fund their efforts to keep illegal immigrants and drug runners out of the country

You have no evidence to suggest a prior record of drug dealing, membership in a cartel, or drug abuse by these three people. None. But you continue to assert this was nothing more than a drug motivated crime, when it clearly is more than that.

596 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:40:49pm

re: #574 sattv4u2

sorry, but they do. At sentencing such thijgs ARE taken into consideration. Could be the difference between jail time and probabtion. Also how MUCH jail time and what kind of facility

I can't imagine that either possible motive in this case would get you much leniency.

597 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:43:12pm

re: #596 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't imagine that either possible motive in this case would get you much leniency.

I wasn't talking THIS case specific. I was answering a post that stated that at NO time is motive taken into consideration

598 Flyers1974  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:44:19pm

re: #571 poteen

Quite likely, and the communists, rightly, would disavow any such suggestion. Because even dirty commie bastards don't want to be identified as child killers.
No political movement can justify killing like this. "For the cause", is all they can say, and it won't fly in the end .It never does.

Not with moral justification. China got away with it however.

599 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:44:22pm

I think as a nation we shouldn't identify this violent extremism as left or right assigning it's responsibility to some political group. Rather just extremism that needs to be punished if it ever acts violently. Pipe dream though.

600 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:44:56pm

re: #24 Macker

If you mean those Mexicans who violate our border to conduct attacks on OUR soil, I would agree with you.

fuck you.

601 monique  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:45:31pm

re: #549 unrealizedviewpoint

I was writing about this thread.

What are you reading?

I believe this thread is about members of an "anti-immigration group" who killed a father and daughter in order to get drugs and money to further their agenda.

I addressed the fact those those groups offer little or no value in the immigration fight...and are hindrance to the issue.

What part of that doesn't pertain to the conversation at hand?

602 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:45:57pm

re: #419 NelsFree

So, it was part of a Master's Thesis? Linky to the paper?

I've looked into the 29 Palms theory. It stinks.

It can be found under various wording, and not always pinpointed at 29 Palms, for instance at American Conservative Daily, "Liberals Over Ameica" (sic).

The story seems to have taken off on 18 December of last year, by freedominourtime (blogspot), who helps out with the far right publication The New American. Its proprietor William Grigg of Idaho (you can't make this shit up), in his turn, found it on RonPaulForum. The kookosphere labels it "Question 46". Needless to say we never heard of it in the Clinton era.

I need hardly mention, Grigg is selling a self-published book...

One source of this is on scribd - 'The "Hey, Private! Will You Shoot Ameicans" Survey!' I don't know if I should link, so I won't. The uploaded "original" is done in Microsoft Word. No-one has photographs of this "questionnaire"... the thing is so fake, it won't even throb.

In short - Oa noes! Ameica iz in piril!

603 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:48:10pm

re: #575 Sharmuta

Name an instance where motive for murder allowed the murder to escape punishment.

I can't name one off hand, but there is term for it - jury nullification. Usually the term applies to a verdict of not guilty when the killed one was a horrible person, ie: a rapists, a child murderer, etc.

604 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:50:34pm

re: #555 Sharmuta

It appears that you have no evidence that they were indeed drug dealers. but You do appear to have have evidence of their political motivations. It seems that but you will dismiss the political motivations so as to allow the information to fit your favored hypothesis.

Please tell me you're not a biochemist. If I may inquire, do you work in biochemistry?


/FIFY

605 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:50:46pm

re: #602 Zimriel

I've looked into the 29 Palms theory. It stinks.

It can be found under various wording, and not always pinpointed at 29 Palms, for instance at American Conservative Daily, "Liberals Over Ameica" (sic).

The story seems to have taken off on 18 December of last year, by freedominourtime (blogspot), who helps out with the far right publication The New American. Its proprietor William Grigg of Idaho (you can't make this shit up), in his turn, found it on RonPaulForum. The kookosphere labels it "Question 46". Needless to say we never heard of it in the Clinton era.

I need hardly mention, Grigg is selling a self-published book...

One source of this is on scribd - 'The "Hey, Private! Will You Shoot Ameicans" Survey!' I don't know if I should link, so I won't. The uploaded "original" is done in Microsoft Word. No-one has photographs of this "questionnaire"... the thing is so fake, it won't even throb.

In short - Oa noes! Ameica iz in piril!

Sorry, your outrage is misplaced.

Here is a link to the full thesis including the questions/answers. Pay close attention to the address:

[Link: www.dtic.mil...]

606 Flyers1974  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:50:52pm

re: #603 unrealizedviewpoint

I can't name one off hand, but there is term for it - jury nullification. Usually the term applies to a verdict of not guilty when the killed one was a horrible person, ie: a rapists, a child murderer, etc.

Or when race is combined with money and celebrity, as in OJ. But it is not very common, I think.

607 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:52:29pm

re: #603 unrealizedviewpoint

I can't name one off hand, but there is term for it - jury nullification. Usually the term applies to a verdict of not guilty when the killed one was a horrible person, ie: a rapists, a child murderer, etc.

Others have now pointed out that battered wives and self defense can be used effectively. But they are not the norms, and the vast majority of motives do not shield murderers from punishment. It certainly won't in this case.

608 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:52:49pm

re: #595 Sharmuta

Did you miss this part?

You have no evidence to suggest a prior record of drug dealing, membership in a cartel, or drug abuse by these three people. None. But you continue to assert this was nothing more than a drug motivated crime, when it clearly is more than that.

And you assert that it was politically motivated, and the only proof of that is their anti-immigrant group affiliation.You have to sell the drugs to get the money, for whatever purpose..You're correct, I cannot (yet) find any mention of drug abuse but it's early. As for "membership" in a drug cartel, I haven't mentioned that but this type of murder is a common prerequisite in those organizations. It will all come out soon enough.
For now , I have to go. I'll check back later.

609 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:53:23pm
610 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:00:57pm

re: #601 monique

I was writing about this thread.

What are you reading?

I believe this thread is about members of an "anti-immigration group" who killed a father and daughter in order to get drugs and money to further their agenda.

I addressed the fact those those groups offer little or no value in the immigration fight...and are hindrance to the issue.

What part of that doesn't pertain to the conversation at hand?

You said in your comment 527:

The people who seek recognition for "patrolling our borders" do nothing more than by happen-chance stumble on illegals trying to cross the border..steal their money and any other valuables they may have, then "release" the perps to continue on their journey.

That's an unbelievable statement. You said all those who patrol the border (meaning all Minutemen) do this. And that just is not the case. This story is about one single instance of criminals (who belonged to a fringe organization) who broke into the home of smugglers and killed them and their family. Are you saying all Minutemen steal the valuables of illegals when they capture them?

611 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:01:35pm

re: #500 NelsFree

Excellent find, Wendya!

Cato, thank you for your thoroughly entertaining response to my, well, somewhat puerile inquiry. Now, what happens when the sentence approaches the speed of light!?
/h

That's an easy one. Everybody knows that the faster the sentence moves, the slower the thought. It's part of the basic Einsteinian theory of relativity: As sentences approach the theoretical speed limit, the thought they carry slows asymptotically to zero.

The result? Brain freeze, as any fast eater of ice cream can tell you from practical experience!

;^)

612 tradewind  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:04:47pm

This oughta help the authorities in AZ take a bit outta crime, whether from right or left wing crazies.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

613 monique  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:09:41pm

re: #610 unrealizedviewpoint
How ridiculous.

the article does not discuss ALL those who patrol the border...it pertains to one kooky group, and that group was where my reply was aimed.

I have the utmost respect and admiration for the Minutemen, and the CBP who work tirelessly to protect this country.

If my reply gave any other impression...I appologize.

That was certainly not my intent.

614 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:11:29pm

re: #601 monique


I addressed the fact those those groups offer little or no value in the immigration fight...and are hindrance to the issue.

Stopping illegal immigration at the Mexican border is certainly not a hindrance to the issue.

615 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:12:45pm

re: #608 poteen

And I'm asserting their motive was political because that's what the investigators have said- they committed this crime to fund their political activities. If their motive was purely drug related, the investigators would have said that instead, yet that's not what we've been told. Lord knows there is plenty of 100% drug motivated crime in this country. This isn't one of those cases.

616 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:12:49pm

monique,
Sorry, I didn't see your reply.
We are on the same page. Please disregard.

617 Zimriel  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:24:16pm

re: #605 Wendya

Sorry, your outrage is misplaced.

Here is a link to the full thesis including the questions/answers. Pay close attention to the address:

[Link: www.dtic.mil...]

I'm reading it. Question 46 is explained in page 79. The question itself is in the appendix, page 95.

Its author was 13 years out of college so was presumably in his mid thirties. He was then a Lt Commander and angling for a Master's. The project concerned the effects of peacekeeping on unit cohesion.

The senior approver of this thesis was one "David Whipple", who is probably David D Whipple. This man had joined the CIA in 1950 (under Truman) and died at the age of 78 in 2002. This questionnaire was not initiated by the Armed Forces and certainly not by Reno or Clinton.

It looks legit, insofar as it goes - one man's thesis which took a snapshot of unit psychology in the mid 1990s.

So, okay; I was wrong, the questionnaire does exist. But Iron Fist's presentation of this thing was unnecessarily conspiratorial. When the name of "Clinton" is dropped and the whole affair takes place in the passive voice, the implication to the reader is that Clinton is somehow involved. I don't think it's good enough to claim plausible deniability on this one. This is how black-helicopter theories get disseminated.

618 NelsFree  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:31:57pm

re: #611 Cato the Elder

U R Geenie-us!
/brain approaching speed of light

Ooh! New thread!

619 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:38:49pm
620 AreaMan  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:40:31pm

The DHS erred in implicitly comparing a few right-wing shooters, nuts and so forth with the embassy bombers, ship bombers, airplane crashers, beheaders and so on of the real terrorist movements. The right-wing shooters are tiny potatoes and are a job for local law enforcement.

Unless the DHS is doing that too?

621 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 2:50:51pm

re: #357 Iron Fist

Lots of links. I wasn't at 29 Palms myself, but the Clinton Administration admitted that it was done.

Judging from this link you provided, it's a little misleading to say "the Clinton Administration admitted it was done." Apparently it was done by one officer, as a "research project":

The survey does exist and was passed out to a few hundred Marines in 29 Palms, California, in 1995, but not by the Pentagon. According to an article in NEW AMERICAN magazine in October of 1995 by John F. McManus, the survey was part of an academic project on the part of a Navy Lieutenant Commander Ernest Guy Cunningham who was earning his Masters Degree from the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. The survey alarmed some of the Marines and copies soon started being circulated among gun rights supporters. Lt. Cmdr. Cunningham told McManus that he was a member of the National Rifle Association himself and didn't agree with the tone of the questions. He said the survey was intended to confirm and then pass on to higher authorities his fears about "the lack of knowledge among the soldiers about the U.S. Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and their heritage as Americans."

622 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 3:26:29pm

Aren't these crimes the exception rather than the rule? I thought the DHS Report was warning about potential major trends and not one-off events with no real connection.

Also, if they had information of these events, enough that they could release a report to law enforcement agencies, didn't they have enough evidence to prevent some of these criminal acts from ever taking place?

My problem with the DHS reports was not that they were neccessarily untrue, but that they were too broad without any research to back up the claims. I never stopped believing in white supremacists and their ilk or militant racists...but if we lived in an America where these guys were the status quo, where Ron Paul was the voice of the opposition party than we have all lost.

623 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 3:30:00pm

re: #17 pingjockey

The only people who should be allowed the nic "gunny" are usn gunnersmates or gunnery sgts. NOBODY ELSE!

I don't think I've ever called a gunnersmate "gunny", I hink it's specifically for Marine use only. I could be wrong.

624 legalpad  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 3:37:39pm

One note on this dead thread. For at least 45 years I have heard of "right wing extremists" in the MSM. I am hard pressed to recall references to "left wing extremists". It seems that if there has been denial regarding either side, it has been the left, not the right. I doubt that many MSM spokespersons would acknowledge the existence of left wing extremists. Ten years ago and more I would say none would.

625 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 4:31:08pm

re: #621 ShanghaiEd

Judging from this link you provided, it's a little misleading to say "the Clinton Administration admitted it was done." Apparently it was done by one officer, as a "research project":

It was done with full knowledge of his superiors. The reason it was so controversial wasn't the questions asked but the answers given.

626 hazzyday  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 5:53:58pm

The local CBS affliate here Ch 7 reports Forde as a minuteman activist. That she was going to use the money to fund her group. They made no distinctions and gave emphasis that she was primarily an activist.

627 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:27:07pm

re: #615 Sharmuta

And I'm asserting their motive was political because that's what the investigators have said- they committed this crime to fund their political activities. If their motive was purely drug related, the investigators would have said that instead, yet that's not what we've been told. Lord knows there is plenty of 100% drug motivated crime in this country. This isn't one of those cases.

maybe
But no concession until there's more info. Drug abuse may be the one thing she hasn't been caught at yet.

628 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:29:00pm

re: #627 poteen

For crying out loud! You are manufacturing things instead of accepting the words of the people actually involved in investigating this crime. It's really kind of pathetic.

629 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:32:03pm

re: #628 Sharmuta

She's a murderous nut.I'll wait beyond the preliminary reports to to see why.

630 Sharmuta  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:32:47pm

re: #629 poteen

You've already made up your mind.

631 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:40:35pm

re: #630 Sharmuta

Yea. Probably. But killing a nine yr.old to 'fund' something sounds like her first excuse to the investigators, duly reported, but not truthful. (Her lie obviously not theirs)
We'll see.

632 Charles  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:50:37pm

re: #631 poteen

Yea. Probably. But killing a nine yr.old to 'fund' something sounds like her first excuse to the investigators, duly reported, but not truthful. (Her lie obviously not theirs)
We'll see.

If you click twice on this video you'll see a group of related videos making it clear that Forde was not just a common criminal, but had very strong ideological motivations.

633 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 7:09:32pm

re: #632 Charles

This goes back to where I started. If the weird machinations of her mind can rationalize killing the child because she was a witness, I don't believe that can be considered strong ideology. I think, therefore, that her motivation is irrelevant.
Granted she doesn't look like a classic drug addict, but neither did Pablo Escobar.

634 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 7:14:39pm

In the end, Escobar's motivations, greed , avarice were irrelevent given the scope of his crimes. As were those who killed for him.

635 doubter4444  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 7:47:35pm

re: #625 Wendya

It was done with full knowledge of his superiors. The reason it was so controversial wasn't the questions asked but the answers given.


You know, I looked at the abstract, and it looks pretty benign, certainly twistable by those with an agenda to make someone look bad, but to me it looked more like a self-serving thesis for the guy:
Make an "interesting" proposition" but one that you know the answer to (as if fuck no is a surprise answer) prove a simple point and get the sheepskin.
I don't see some evil Clinton conspiracy.
I also looked at a lot of the links and they, on the other hand tend to blow it out of proportion.
Just saying.

636 poteen  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 7:58:47pm
Forde was not just a common criminal, but had very strong ideological motivations

A better way to put it would be how do her motivations make her different than any other child killer?

637 RedSoxNation  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 8:11:29pm

Charles, this post has confused me.

Somehow I do not think that these two murders and their organization were formed in the last four months under Obama. And I'm sure that these idiots have committed crimes before 2009. Isolated incidents, no matter how much the media hypes them, do not demonstrate a pattern. I would love for someone to show with statistical analysis that there is any increase in violence among right wing extremists, as predicted by the HHS report. Just because the media will now report any crime by anyone remotely connected to a right wing extremist group, does that really mean that there is an uptick in violence among right wing extremists?

Charles, you are generally a little more analytical in your conclusions. Are you really supporting the notion that HHS must spend more time and money on domestic terrorism by right wing extremists than on foreign and domestic terrorism by Islamic extremists? If so, why?

638 Wendya  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 9:53:02pm

re: #635 doubter4444

You know, I looked at the abstract, and it looks pretty benign, certainly twistable by those with an agenda to make someone look bad, but to me it looked more like a self-serving thesis for the guy:
Make an "interesting" proposition" but one that you know the answer to (as if fuck no is a surprise answer) prove a simple point and get the sheepskin.
I don't see some evil Clinton conspiracy.
I also looked at a lot of the links and they, on the other hand tend to blow it out of proportion.
Just saying.

Cunningham was pretty surprised at the results, particularly to the last question. The more junior the enlisted member, the more likely he was to answer in the affirmative. That is a problem of ignorance that the military needs to deal with. The more time spent in service, the less likely the person was to answer yes to that question.

639 ihateronpaul  Sun, Jun 14, 2009 11:38:22pm

For all you morons that can't possibly understand why some racists would be classified "extreme right wing", allow me to lay out some common beliefs that racists and "right wing conservatives" tend to have...

-ANTI-OPEN BORDERS/IMMIGRATION - it is no secret that many conservatives against illegal immigration are also against increasing legal immigration quotas. Example: Mark Levin. He makes it a political issue, claiming that since a lot of immigrants may not be pro-american, they shouldn't be allowed. An example of this: I live in RI, and our local anti-illegal immigration group "RIILE" is for lower legal immigration numbers.

-ANTI-AFFIRMATIVE ACTION - both hold the exact same position on this, well the conservative isn't against the minority but they both make the exact same arguments on the topic.

-ANTI-HOMOSEXUALITY - both vehemently opposed to civil rights for gays

-ENGLISH ONLY SOCIETY - both support the idea of a euro-centered society, even though our country has roots with native americans who we kicked the fuck down.

640 Scorch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 4:38:09am

re: #639 ihateronpaul
Ron Paul is a complete moron but the username you have could possibly get you a little attention from DHS that you probably would not want.
I also would like to know if these two murderers were trained by the US military since the DHS report stated we military types were prime targets for recruiting from hate groups.

641 koedo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:10:21am

I'm still many more times concerned with Islamic supremacists in our midsts. In the last months there has been more dangerous actions from brothers for Mo inside the US. Not that the WS shouldn't be watched closely.

642 koedo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:10:55am

have

643 eaglewingz08  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:43:32am

So based upon Charles description of this, we can now apply this rule to the other side of the aisle so that anytime any leftwing violent group did anything illegal, oh, say Bill Ayres and his weathermen, it will now be fair game to pin that on all democraps, including Barack Obama? If Charles wants to tar all anti illegal immigrant groups with these murderers, then why should we not be able to tar Obama and all democraps with their murderers and miscreants no matter how far away from the mainstream they may be? Thanks.

644 noahsatellite  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:19:16am
and were looking for drugs...to keep...drug runners out of the country

So they were going to sell the drugs in order to raise money to get these illegal immigrants our of the country because they felt that the latter were ruining the country by... umm... selling the drugs?

Riiight...

645 n2stox  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:40:46am

re: #639 ihateronpaul

You can't be serious.

Being anti-open borders is a far cry from being anti-immigration. Do you understand the difference?

Anti-affirmative action. Well, I guess you're a proponent of giving preferences based on skin color. I am not. To paraphrase John Roberts, in order for us to get past looking at the color of one's skin, we have to stop looking at the color of one's skin.

Civil rights for gays? Name a civil right they don't have. You might be talking about the marriage issue. Understand this: government has placed restrictions on virtually every "right" that exists: the right to drive requires one to be at least 16, the right to vote requires 18, the right to purchase booze is 21, thr right to enter contracts is, I believe, 18. Gays want the "right to marry whomever they want." That's all fine and well, but I don't have that right,either, nor do those who want to be polygamists or marry intra-family. Marriage, like all others, is a right with restrictions.

And, I just love how you lump "right wing conservatives" with "racists."

I'd like to hear your definition of conservative.

646 ecs05norway  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:53:39am

re: RedSoxNation

No. But he is saying that the accusation that right-wing problems exist is not totally groundless.

Which it looks like is true. I mean, sure, kill drug-runners. But a 9 year old kid? No Way.

647 n2stox  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 9:04:05am

Here is a Seatle Times report that tells us Forde had been kicked out of the Minutemen in 2007.

[Link: seattletimes.nwsource.com...]

"Joseph Ray, director of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps for Washington state, said Forde was dismissed from the group in February 2007 for violating its operating procedures and behaving inappropriately.

Since then Ray said his group has had no connection with Forde or her Minutemen American Defense."

Did anyone notice that the acronym for the Minuteman American Defense spells MAD?

648 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 10:26:05am

re: #645 n2stox

You can't be serious.

Being anti-open borders is a far cry from being anti-immigration. Do you understand the difference?

Anti-affirmative action. Well, I guess you're a proponent of giving preferences based on skin color. I am not. To paraphrase John Roberts, in order for us to get past looking at the color of one's skin, we have to stop looking at the color of one's skin.

Civil rights for gays? Name a civil right they don't have. You might be talking about the marriage issue. Understand this: government has placed restrictions on virtually every "right" that exists: the right to drive requires one to be at least 16, the right to vote requires 18, the right to purchase booze is 21, thr right to enter contracts is, I believe, 18. Gays want the "right to marry whomever they want." That's all fine and well, but I don't have that right,either, nor do those who want to be polygamists or marry intra-family. Marriage, like all others, is a right with restrictions.

And, I just love how you lump "right wing conservatives" with "racists."

I'd like to hear your definition of conservative.

I'm not lumping them together. But some conservatives are racists, and some racists are conservatives. gay people don't have the civil right of marriage or adoption. I am not pro-affirmative action, I am simply stating that both camps hold the same position. I don't see how you can argue that...

649 Charles  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 10:54:19am

re: #647 n2stox

Here is a Seatle Times report that tells us Forde had been kicked out of the Minutemen in 2007.

The first article I posted makes it clear that the Minutemen for American Defense is a different group.

However, the most recent article I posted also makes it very clear that Forde is no common criminal; her anti-immigrant political stance was behind the crime, and the motivation was to fund their group. It's just ridiculous to see so many people trying to explain this away, because they're afraid of being identified with people like this.

The way to avoid being identified with people like this is to make it clear that you don't agree with their motives or their ideology, not to make futile denials that her ideology is right wing.

Shawna Forde is a perfect example of the people the DHS report described.

650 Charles  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 10:55:25am

And please note that the main Minutemen organization also has major problems -- for example, the fact that both of its founding members, Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrist, associate with outright white supremacists and neo-Nazi types.

651 n2stox  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:12:53pm

re: #648 ihateronpaul

Some conservatives are racists and some racists are conservatives?

And some are men and some are women. And, some have jobs and others are unemployed. And some drive red cars, and some drive blue ones.

You write as if there are only right-wing racists. How about the New Black Panther Party? Are they racist? Are followers of Black Liberation Theology racist? My guess would be some followers are, and some are not.

Nation of Islam? Same thing, I'd say.

And, incidentally, how do you explain the overwhelming victory of Obama in California, and the crushing defeat of the gay marriage bill on the same ballot? Were these a bunch of coservative zealots that just didn't like McCain? I doubt it.

Strong feelings on various subjects are evident on both sides.

Gays can't adopt? That's strange. Here's an article from 2006 about gay couples adopting:

[Link: www.boston.com...]

Granted, it doesn't occur that often (about 3% of adoptions), but it does happen.

Adoption is a civil right? Aren't we expanding the definition a bit far nowadays?

652 n2stox  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:15:21pm

re: #649 Charles

True dat. Here's more from the article:

"Late last year Forde reported a series of attacks against her and her ex-husband. She claimed her husband had been shot Dec. 22 at his North Everett home, and that a week later she had been raped and beaten at the house, according to a story in The Herald newspaper. First she suggested the attacks were carried out by the Mexican drug cartels, then later told police the assaults may have been carried out by friends of her adult son."

653 Duane[deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:07:57pm
654 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 9:44:17pm

And all three were disgruntled ex-military right? Right? So the DHS smears were completely justified. Imagine my relief.


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