”A public Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish nation-state is a prerequisite for regional peace,“ Netanyahu said.

AMEN, Bibi. Don't back off this point ever. It's the brass ring.

What? He still refuses to order a mass suicide by the Juice? There won't be peace then.
///

Abbas complains Netanyahu is being "provocative".

10,000 updings for PM Netanyahu!

re: #3 FurryOldGuyJeans

Abbas complains Netanyahu is being "provocative".

Abbas is being a jackass.

“The biggest threat to Israel, and the middle east and all of humanity is the meeting between radical Islamism and nuclear weaponry.”

I can't see how any reasonable person could possibly disagree with that statement.

So glad he's leading Israel right now. His book, A Durable Peace, is a good place to start for those wondering what he stands for.

Netanyahu says will accept demilitarized Palestinian state
Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:55pm EDT
By Ori Lewis

RAMAT GAN, Israel (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accepted on Sunday the U.S.-backed goal of a Palestinian state but balked at meeting President Barack Obama's demand to stop Jewish settlement expansion.

Netanyahu's reversal on statehood appeared to be a bid to end the worst rift in U.S.-Israeli relations in a decade. But further friction appeared likely over his refusal to budge on settlements.

Netanyahu said he would support the establishment of a Palestinian state -- but only if Israel received in advance international guarantees the new nation would have no military and Palestinians recognized Israel as a Jewish state.

A spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Netanyahu had not gone far enough. Palestinians have long resisted calls to declare that Israel is a Jewish state.

Palestinians have long resisted there even the very existence of Israel, let alone a Jewish state.

the root of the struggle is the refusal to recognize Israel as the Jewish state

I disagree, the root of the struggle is the necessity of having a bogeyman to focus the energy of a poor uneducated mass of people whose only hope lies in the afterlife. Once Israel goes then the bogeyman becomes the United States, as has already started.

I have a hunch this wasn't the kind of Change Obama was Hoping for.

Until the point is conceded that Israel has a right to exist- no progress can be made. They'd rather die than concede this point, but Israel's policy should be that this is non-negotiable and there will be no more carrots until they agree to this one point.

Received in an email. No link so this will be posted across several posts:

This is an unofficial transcript of Prime Minister Netanyahu's speech of June 14, 2009 at Bar Ilan Univerasity, produced by The Israel Project

Honored guests, citizens of Israel.

Peace was always the desire of our people. Our prophets had a vision of peace, we greet each other with peace, our prayers end with the word peace. This evening we are in the center named for two leaders who were groundbreakers for peace -Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat - and we share their vision.

Two and a half months ago, I was sworn in at the Knesset as the Prime Minister of Israel. I promised that I would establish a unity government, and did so. I believed, and still believe, that we need unity now more than ever before.

We are currently facing three tremendous challenges: The Iranian threat, the financial crisis, and the promotion of peace.

The Iranian threat still is before us in full force, as it became quite clear yesterday. The greatest danger to Israel, to the Middle East, and to all of humanity, is the encounter between extremist Islam and nuclear weapons. I discussed this with President Obama on my visit to Washington, and will be discussing it next week on my visit with European leaders. I have been working tirelessly for many years to form an international front against Iran arming itself with nuclear armaments.

With the world financial crisis, we acted immediately to bring about stability to the Israeli economy. We passed a two-year budget in the government and will pass it through the Knesset very soon.

The second challenge, rather, the third, so very important challenge, facing us today, is promoting peace. I discussed this also with President Obama. I strongly support the idea of regional peace that he is advancing. I share the President of the USA’s desire to bring about a new era of reconciliation in our region.

I discussed this in my meetings with President Mubarak in Egypt and with King Abdullah in Jordan to obtain the assistance of these leaders in the effort to expand the circle of peace in our region.

I appeal tonight to the leaders of the Arab countries and say: Let us meet. Let us talk about peace. Let us make peace. I am willing to meet at any time, at any place, in Damascus, in Riyadh, in Beirut, and in Jerusalem as well. (Applause)

I call upon the leaders of the Arab countries to join together with the Palestinians and with us to promote economic peace. Economic peace is not a substitute for peace, but it is a very important component in achieving it. Together we can advance projects that can overcome the problems facing our region. For example, water desalinization. And we can utilize the advantages of our region, such as maximizing the use of solar energy, or utilizing its geographical advantages to lay pipelines, pipelines to Africa and Europe

Together we can realize the initiatives that I see in the Persian Gulf, which amaze the entire world, and also amaze me. I call upon the talented entrepreneurs of the Arab world, to come and invest here, to assist the Palestinians and us, to give the economy a jump-start. Together we can develop industrial zones, we can create thousands of jobs, and foster tourism that will draw millions, people who want to walk in the footsteps of history, in Nazareth and Bethlehem, in the heights of Jericho and on the walls of Jerusalem, on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, and at the baptismal site of the Jordan. There is a huge potential for the development of tourism potential here. If you only agree to work together.

I appeal to you, our Palestinian neighbors, and to the leadership of the Palestinian Authority. Let us begin peace negotiations immediately without prior conditions. Israel is committed to international agreements, and expects all sides to fulfill their obligations.

I say to the Palestinians: We want to live with you in peace, quiet, and good neighborly relations. We want our children and your children to ‘know war no more.’

We do not want parents and wives, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, to know the sorrow of bereavement. We want our children to dream of a better future for humankind. We want us and our neighbors to devote our efforts to ‘plowshares and pruning hooks’ and not to ‘swords and spears…’ I know the terror of war, I participated in battles, I lost good friends who fell [in battle], I lost a brother. I saw the pain of bereaved families from up close – very many times. I do not want war. No one in Israel wants war. (Applause)

Let us join hands and work together in peace, together with our neighbors. There is no limit to the flourishing growth that we can achieve for both peoples - in the economy, in agriculture, in commerce, tourism, education - but, above all, in the ability to give our younger generation hope to live in a place that’s good to live in, a life of creative work, a peaceful life with much of interest, with opportunity and hope.

Friends, with the advantages of peace so clear, so obvious, we must ask ourselves why is peace still so far from us, even though our hands are extended for peace? Why has the conflict going on for over 60 years? To bring an end to it, there must be a sincere, genuine answer to the question: what is the root of the conflict? In his speech at the Zionist Congress in Basel, in speaking of his grand vision of a Jewish homeland for the Jewish People, Theodor Herzl, the visionary of the State of Israel, said: This is so big, we must talk about it only in the simplest words possible.

I now am asking that when we speak of the huge challenge of peace, we must use the simplest words possible, using person to person terms. Even with our eyes on the horizon, we must have our feet on the ground, firmly rooted in truth. The simple truth is that the root of the conflict has been – and remains - the refusal to recognize the right of the Jewish People to its own state in its historical homeland.

In 1947 when the United Nations proposed the Partition Plan for a Jewish state and an Arab state, the entire Arab world rejected the proposal, while the Jewish community accepted it with great rejoicing and dancing. The Arabs refused any Jewish state whatsoever, with any borders whatsoever.

Whoever thinks that the continued hostility to Israel is a result of our forces in Judea, Samaria and Gaza is confusing cause and effect. The attacks on us began in the 1920s, became an overall attack in 1948 when the state was declared, continued in the 1950s with the fedaayyin attacks, and reached their climax in 1967 on the eve of the Six-Day War, with the attempt to strangle Israel. All this happened nearly 50 years before a single Israeli soldier went into Judea and Samaria.

To our joy, Egypt and Jordan left this circle of hostility. They signed peace agreements with us which ended their hostility to Israel. It brought about peace.

To our deep regret, this is not happening with the Palestinians. The closer we get to a peace agreement with them, the more they are distancing themselves from peace. They raise new demands. They are not showing us that they want to end the conflict.

A great many people are telling us that withdrawal is the key to peace with the Palestinians. But the fact is that all our withdrawals were met by huge waves of suicide bombers.

We tried withdrawal by agreement, withdrawal without an agreement, we tried partial withdrawal and full withdrawal. In 2000, and once again last year, the government of Israel, based on good will, tried a nearly complete withdrawal, in exchange for the end of the conflict, and were twice refused.

We withdrew from the Gaza Strip to the last centimeter, we uprooted dozens of settlements and turned thousands of Israelis out of their homes. In exchange, what we received were missiles raining down on our cities, our towns and our children. The argument that withdrawal would bring peace closer did not stand up to the test of reality.

re: #3 FurryOldGuyJeans

Abbas complains Netanyahu is being "provocative".

As kassams continue to rain down on Southern Israel.

Cont:
With Hamas in the south and Hizbullah in the north, they keep on saying that they want to ‘liberate’ Ashkelon in the south and Haifa and Tiberias.

Even the moderates among the Palestinians are not ready to say the most simplest things: The State of Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish People and will remain so. (Applause)

Friends, in order to achieve peace, we need courage and integrity on the part of the leaders of both sides. I am speaking today with courage and honesty. We need courage and sincerity not only on the Israeli side: we need the Palestinian leadership to rise and say, simply “We have had enough of this conflict. We recognize the right of the Jewish People to a state its own in this Land. We will live side by side in true peace.” I am looking forward to this moment.

We want them to say the simplest things, to our people and to their people. This will then open the door to solving other problems, no matter how difficult. The fundamental condition for ending the conflict is the public, binding and sincere Palestinian recognition of Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish People. (Applause)

For this to have practical meaning, we need a clear agreement to solve the Palestinian refugee problem outside of the borders of the State of Israel. For it is clear to all that the demand to settle the Palestinian refugees inside of Israel, contradicts the continued existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish People. We must solve the problem of the Arab refugees. And I believe that it is possible to solve it. Because we have proven that we ourselves solved a similar problem. Tiny Israel took in the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees from Arab countries who were uprooted from their homes.

Therefore, justice and logic dictates that the problem of the Palestinian refugees must be solved outside the borders of the State of Israel. There is broad national agreement on this. (Applause)

I believe that with good will and international investment of we can solve this humanitarian problem once and for all.

Friends, up to now, I have been talking about the need for the Palestinians to ecognize our rights. Now I will talk about the need for us to recognize their rights.

The connection of the Jewish People to the Land has been in existence for more than 3,500 years. Judea and Samaria, the places where our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob walked, our forefathers David, Solomon, Isaiah and Jeremiah – this is not a foreign land, this is the Land of our Forefathers. (Applause)

The right of the Jewish People to a state in the Land of Israel does not arise from the series of disasters that befell the Jewish People over 2,000 years -- persecutions, expulsions, pogroms, blood libels, murders, which reached its climax in the Holocaust, an unprecedented tragedy in the history of nations. There are those who say that without the Holocaust the State would not have been established, but I say that if the State of Israel had been established in time, the Holocaust would not have taken place. (Applause) The tragedies that arose from the Jewish People’s helplessness show very sharply that we need a protective state.

The right to establish our sovereign state here, in the Land of Israel, arises from one simple fact: Eretz Israel is the birthplace of the Jewish People. (Applause)

As the first PM David Ben Gurion in the declaration of the State, the State of Israel was established here in Eretz Israel, where the People of Israel created the Book of Books, and gave it to the world.

Con't

Con't:

But, friends, we must state the whole truth here. The truth is that in the area of our homeland, in the heart of our Jewish Homeland, now lives a large population of Palestinians. We do not want to rule over them. We do not want to run their lives. We do not want to force our flag and our culture on them. In my vision of peace, there are two free peoples living side by side in this small land, with good neighborly relations and mutual respect, each with its flag, anthem and government, with neither one threatening its neighbor’s security and existence.

These two facts – our link to the Land of Israel, and the Palestinian population who live here, have created deep disagreements within Israeli society. But the truth is that we have much more unity than disagreement.

I came here tonight to talk about the agreement and security that are broad consensus within Israeli society. This is what guides our policy. This policy must take into account the international situation. We have to recognize international agreements but also principles important to the State of Israel. I spoke tonight about the first principle - recognition. Palestinians must truly recognize Israel as the state of the Jewish people. The second principle is demilitarization. Any area in Palestinian hands has to be demilitarization, with solid security measures. Without this condition, there is a real fear that there will be an armed Palestinian state which will become a terrorist base against Israel, as happened in Gaza. We do not want missiles on Petah Tikva, or Grads on the Ben-Gurion international airport. We want peace. (Applause)

And, to ensure peace we don’t want them to bring in missiles or rockets or have an army, or control of airspace, or make treaties with countries like Iran, or Hizbullah. There is broad agreement on this in Israel. We cannot be expected to agree to a Palestinian state without ensuring that it is demilitarized. This is crucial to the existence of Israel – we must provide for our security needs.

This is why we are now asking our friends in the international community, headed by the USA, for what is necessary for our security, that in any peace agreement, the Palestinian area must be demilitarized. No army, no control of air space. Real effective measures to prevent arms coming in, not what’s going on now in Gaza. The Palestinians cannot make military treaties.

Without this, sooner or later, we will have another Hamastan. We can’t agree to this. Israel must govern its own fate and security. I told President Obama in Washington, if we get a guarantee of demilitarization, and if the Palestinians recognize Israel as the Jewish state, we are ready to agree to a real peace agreement, a demilitarized Palestinian state side by side with the Jewish state. (Applause)

Whenever we discuss a permanent arrangement, Israel needs defensible borders with Jerusalem remaining the united capital of Israel. (Applause)

The territorial issues will be discussed in a permanent agreement. Till then we have no intention to build new settlements or set aside land for new settlements. But there is a need to have people live normal lives and let mothers and fathers raise their children like everyone in the world. The settlers are not enemies of peace. They are our brothers and sisters. (Applause)

Friends, unity among us is, to my view, vital, and unity will help with reconciliation with our neighbors. Reconciliation must begin now. A strong Palestinian government will strengthen peace. If they truly want peace, and educate their children for peace and stop incitement, we for our part will make every effort, allow them freedom of movement and accessibility, making their lives easier and this will help bring peace.

But above all, they must decide: the Palestinians must decide between path of peace and path of Hamas. They must overcome Hamas. Israel will not sit down at conference table with terrorist who seek to destroy it. (Applause)

Con't

And we have an anti-Semite gasbag ex-President telling the world who the "real obstacle" to ME peace is (posted previously, but still relevant):

Carter warns US and Israel on collision course
AFP
Jun 14 08:12 AM US/Eastern

Israel is headed for a clash with main ally the United States over the issue of Jewish settlements, former US president Jimmy Carter said in an interview on Sunday.

Asked by the liberal Haaretz newspaper whether the Jewish state was looking at a "head-on collision" with the United States if it doesn't comply with Washington's demands, Carter said "Yes."

Con't
Hamas are not willing to even let the Red Cross visit our abducted soldier Gilad Shalit who has been in captivity three years, cut off from his family and his country. We want to bring him back whole and well.

With help of the international community, there is no reason why we can’t have peace. With help of USA, we can do we can do the unbelievable. In 61 years, with constant threats to our existence we have achieved so much. Our microchips power the worlds computers unbelievable, we have found cures for incurable diseases. Israeli drip irrigation waters barren lands throughout the world. Israeli researchers are making worldwide breakthroughs. If our neighbors only work for peace, we can achieve peace. (Applause)

I call upon Arab leaders and Palestinian leaders: Let’s go in the path of Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat, Yitzhak Rabin and King Hussein. Let’s go in the path of Prophet Isaiah, who spoke thousands of years ago, they shall beat their swords into plowshares and know war no more.

Let us know war no more. Let us know peace. (Applause)

End Transcript

Heard the whole speech. Bibi stated the palestinians must recognize the state of Israel as the Jewish homeland; there can be no return of the palestinians to Israel; the palestinians must de-militarize and Jerusalem must remain the Jewish capitol--and then there can be peace, common works and co-existence. Great speech, but my question is--who the hell are the palestinians. To misquote the noted philosopher Jules Winfield, "palestine ain't no country I ever heard of!"

I thought it was concluded that the young captured soldieor, Galid Shalit was no longer alive. Has there been any proof that he still lives?

And completely superficially- I thought the Prime Minister looked very handsome.

Now the question is, what will Obama do? Netanyahu uttered the words "Palestinian State", which is what Obama wanted.
My guess is he'll criticize Israel further and ignore that the Palis reject Israel's existence.
This will prove how anti-Israel Obama really is.
If he ignores Netanyahu's statement, or agrees with the Paliterrorists that it isn't enough, he is coming out against the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. And that will be bad in many ways.
I'll leave the religious stuff out at this point.

Good response to Obama's pressure for peace talks - sure, let's talk. Recognize our rigth to exist first.
The Arabs can't respond to this.

re: #3 FurryOldGuyJeans

Abbas complains Netanyahu is being "provocative".

Really? Asshat. Proves my #23.

re: #23 Jim in Virginia

Good response to Obama's pressure for peace talks - sure, let's talk. Recognize our rigth to exist first.
The Arabs can't respond to this.

They CAN respond, positively or negatively, the only real question is whether they try to go for peace or just return to the intifada.

“We tried a withdrawal with an agreement, without one, a partial withdraw and we offered a near-complete withdraw. We uprooted Jewish settlers from their homes, and received a barrage of missiles in return.”

Netanyahu presents the facts about peace negotiations clearly and rationally. His speech is also an excellent history lesson and should be required reading for everyone in Washington D. C. (to start).

Will he receive an equally clear and rational response from our government?

re: #19 Old Guy

Heard the whole speech. Bibi stated the palestinians must recognize the state of Israel as the Jewish homeland; there can be no return of the palestinians to Israel; the palestinians must de-militarize and Jerusalem must remain the Jewish capitol--and then there can be peace, common works and co-existence. Great speech, but my question is--who the hell are the palestinians. To misquote the noted philosopher Jules Winfield, "palestine ain't no country I ever heard of!"

Hamas won't agree to any of this. All of this is pointless. Does anyone here really believe that the Palestinians will rise up and eradicate Hamas from their society?

re: #23 Jim in Virginia

Good response to Obama's pressure for peace talks - sure, let's talk. Recognize our rigth to exist first.
The Arabs can't respond to this.

I agree. It's long since time this one condition- recognition of Israel's right to exist- be placed front and center. Until this is achieved, there will be no peace. Put the burden on the palestinians and their supporters. Now they are the ones holding back peace.

Though- I'm sure the media will still blame da Jooos for all the ills in the region.

re: #3 FurryOldGuyJeans

Abbas complains Netanyahu is being "provocative".

Screw Abbas.

re: #17 FurryOldGuyJeans

And we have an anti-Semite gasbag ex-President telling the world who the "real obstacle" to ME peace is (posted previously, but still relevant):

Carter warns US and Israel on collision course
AFP
Jun 14 08:12 AM US/Eastern

Yes, if I were Obama I would be THRILLED that an ex-president is now announcing U.S. policy for me.

Eeejit.

It's not pointless at all. This is a challenge to Obama. It delineates the situation clearly. Now the world will dither because they can't handle the truth.

Has anyone ever heard anywhere one Palesrinian openly reject the party line? Anyone? Even an ex-pat?

walk softly, but carry a big freakin stick

A great speech by Netanyahu. Unfortunately, it will most likely fall on deaf ears throughout the Arab world. And, sadly, in our own White House, as well.

The Arab states need a scapegoat for their own utter failure as states. The "Zionist enemy" and it friend, the "Great Satan", are those scapegoats.

(Note to the present Administration; no, trying to "disassociate" yourselves from Israel will not make the Arab states your BFFs; it will just encourage them to believe you can be rolled, cowed, and eventually conquered. Yes, it's a stupid belief, but people believe stupid things every day, especially if its all they want to believe.)

I expect that the Arab/Palestinian response to this will be the same as every initiative that has gone before. Namely, more violence.

The situation will not be helped by the fact that we have, at present, the most reflexively anti-Israel executive branch since Carter. Not to mention the most gullible.

cheers

eon

re: #28 eclectic infidel

Hamas won't agree to any of this. All of this is pointless. Does anyone here really believe that the Palestinians will rise up and eradicate Hamas from their society?

Hamas is only one part of the equation, and if Fatah can get enough guns, yes, they'll eradicate their asses.

Whether that would be good for the Jews, though...

re: #23 Jim in Virginia

Good response to Obama's pressure for peace talks - sure, let's talk. Recognize our rigth to exist first.
The Arabs can't respond to this.

/what, you mean they can't make peace with Israel and vow to destroy her at the same time?

re: #32 jemima

It's not pointless at all. This is a challenge to Obama. It delineates the situation clearly. Now the world will dither because they can't handle the truth.

I agree it's quite the challenge to President Hope&Change. Perhaps I expressed my cynicism far too soon. I'm just not confident that Obama will say what needs to be said, do what needs to be done to support Israel in the global-political arena.

re: #28 eclectic infidel

Hamas won't agree to any of this. All of this is pointless. Does anyone here really believe that the Palestinians will rise up and eradicate Hamas from their society?

/nope

re: #23 Jim in Virginia

Good response to Obama's pressure for peace talks - sure, let's talk. Recognize our rigth to exist first.
The Arabs can't respond to this.

True...but he also should have stated..." not only must Israel be recognized as a Jewish state, but, just as Israel allows Arab Muslim Citizenship in the Jewish State-the future Palestinian State must allow Jews to be full citizens of the future Palestinian State".

Why should the world tolerate another Judenrein state?

A recent poll confirms that a majority of Iranians living in Iran are in favour of Iranian development of nuclear weapons.

Q12b: Apart from nuclear energy, do you favor or oppose the Government of the Islamic Republic of
Iran developing nuclear weapons?
...Frequency..Percent
Strongly favor...332...33.2
Somewhat favor...183...18.3
Somewhat oppose...72...7.2
Strongly oppose...329...32.9
Refused...13...1.3
Don't know...72...7.2
Total...1001...100.0
[Link: www.terrorfreetomorrow.org...]

re: #40 onepistoffyid

True...but he also should have stated..." not only must Israel be recognized as a Jewish state, but, just as Israel allows Arab Muslim Citizenship in the Jewish State-the future Palestinian State must allow Jews to be full citizens of the future Palestinian State".

Why should the world tolerate another Judenrein state?

Yeah, I'll take that Palestinian citizenship as an honorary one, thank you...

Actually, there was nothing new here. But repeating the conditions and overall view of the situation is beneficial.

The more the world hears the truth, the more they should (but not necessarily will they) admit the logic and fault of propaganda to the contrary.

OT: Iran Update...
Huffpo

Major uptick in violence reported. In the last hour, there has been a sharp spike in the number of (unconfirmed) reports about intensified violence:

...

From an emailer Salim: "This is beginning to mirror what I witnessed in the first revolution. When people start taking over military centers. There is report that a basiji center in Northern Tehran around Tajrish has been captured by the protesters. This would potentially mean weapons in hands of protesters. I'll let you know if I heard more."
...
From @iranelection09: "URGENT JUST IN, there are TANKS in front of the interior ministry of tehran in valiasr st. & fatemi cross CAREFUL"

From the transcript above (thanks MJ)-

the Palestinians must decide between path of peace and path of Hamas.

Bibi laid the groundwork to hit back hard on Hamas- and on Iran.

Martin Kramer once again notes

Where Obama got his view on the Settlements issue:

Sweeping Khalidi under Obama's rug

[Link: sandbox.blog-city.com...]

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, I'll take that Palestinian citizenship as an honorary one, thank you...

I wouldn't consider it an honor.
But I know what you meant.

re: #35 eon

The Arab states need a scapegoat for their own utter failure as states. The "Zionist enemy" and it friend, the "Great Satan", are those scapegoats.

This is the key point. They are incapable of self-reflection to correct their own shortcomings. Since in their minds their problems are not because of their own failings, they simply must have somewhere to pin the blame. Recognizing Israel would take a valuable propaganda tool away from them. The last thing they want is for their populations to realize Israel isn't their problem- their own leadership is.

Bibi ... GOOD FOR YOU. Stick to your principles. The majority of people in the USA support you. And even though our President has a long way to go before he truly gets it, you stay strong because in the end he WILL understand. And if he does not, we will have people in the streets of major US cities to make sure he knows how we feel.

re: #49 Sharmuta

This is the key point. They are incapable of self-reflection to correct their own shortcomings. Since in their minds their problems are not because of their own failings, they simply must have somewhere to pin the blame. Recognizing Israel would take a valuable propaganda tool away from them. The last thing they want is for their populations to realize Israel isn't their problem- their own leadership is.

Typical Tribal Chieftain thinking going on there.

First word from the White House:
Obama: PM's speech is important step

US President Barack Obama expressed his support for Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's "endorsement" of the goal of a Palestinian state to exist alongside Israel as expressed in the Likud leader's Bar Ilan speech, while refraining from remarking on the demand for an American guarantee of the Palestinian entity being demilitarized.

"The President welcomes the important step forward in Prime Minister Netanyahu's speech," Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said in a statement.

Why do I think the unsaid part is that "but he still won't take the steps we want, destruction of Israel, so there can be peace in the mideast"

You know, rereading Netanyahu's speech I am struck by how sad it is that he has to keep justifying his country protecting itself.

re: #53 livefreeor die

You know, rereading Netanyahu's speech I am struck by how sad it is that he has to keep justifying his country protecting itself.

Because far too much of the world believes it would be better off with Jews as nothing more than victims.

White House Calls Netanyahu Speech 'Important Step Forward'

The conservative Israeli leader for the first time conditionally endorsed the creation of a Palestinian state.

The White House praised Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's conditional endorsement Sunday of a Palestinian state as an "important step forward" in the Middle East peace process, even as Palestinian leaders condemned the prime minister's terms as unreasonable.

The conservative Israeli leader for the first time conditionally endorsed the creation of a Palestinian state. Speaking near Tel Aviv, he said Israel would be ready to accept such a state provided the Palestinians recognize Israel as the state of the Jewish people, as well as demilitarize their territories and offer security guarantees for Israel. ..

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

The White House will see what they want to see in the speech and ignore the rest.

I am going to raise a glass to Israel and Prime Minister Netenyahu's health.

re: #54 Kosh's Shadow

Because far too much of the world believes it would be better off with Jews as nothing more than victims corpses.

I normally don't do this, but FIFY. Please forgive me.

re: #56 Sharmuta

I am going to raise a glass to Israel and Prime Minister Netenyahu's health.

if I weren't at work, I'd join you :)

re: #56 Sharmuta

I am going to raise a glass to Israel and Prime Minister Netenyahu's health.

I'll raise another one to his chutzpa!

As stated in Kosh's #54, Because far too much of the world believes it would be better off with Jews as nothing more than victims. Those people today are SEETHING at Bibi's speech, which he knew they would while it was being written

re: #58 _RememberTonyC

Anytime is a good time to toast Israel.

Michael Totten: Insurrection Day Two.

According to a Twitter post (rumor, not fact) from inside Iran, the army announced it will not use force against Iranians, only foreigners... ...hundreds of parents have gathered by a police station in Yousef Abad, now known as Seyyed Jamal Aldin Asad Abadi, with their hands raised to the sky saying “Obama, please help us, they are killing our young children.”

Mark Martin Wins the Michigan NASCAR race...
There is not a more gracious winner...Congrads!

re: #60 Sharmuta

Anytime is a good time to toast Israel.

Agreed ... I'll just have to go with a coke instead of a cabernet
...

israel wants peace with out suicide, arabs want war with a veneer of peace.

never will these two positions be compatable.

re: #62 HoosierHoops

Mark Martin Wins the Michigan NASCAR race...
There is not a more gracious winner...Congrads!

8 cars ran out of gas on the last 2 laps

"Honey,,, I TOLD you to stop at that last station"

re: #62 HoosierHoops

Mark Martin Wins the Michigan NASCAR race...
There is not a more gracious winner...Congrads!

how's the fishin', dawg?

re: #66 _RememberTonyC

how's the fishin', dawg?

Fly out in the morning to the Lake...Weee!

re: #66 _RememberTonyC

how's the fishin', dawg?

One week from tomorrow my son and I will be 20 miles off the coast of Georgetown South Carolina deep sea fishing!

re: #67 HoosierHoops

Fly out in the morning to the Lake...Weee!

safe travels and have a blast!

It won't be a two state solution..
It'll be one State, and one Stash.

re: #68 sattv4u2

One week from tomorrow my son and I will be 20 miles off the coast of Georgetown South Carolina deep sea fishing!

will there be "gamecocktails" served?

re: #65 sattv4u2

8 cars ran out of gas on the last 2 laps

"Honey,,, I TOLD you to stop at that last station"

I went to Michigan last year...Junior won because he had gas...
Crazy party in Michigan...Those folks are crazy!

re: #64 rumcrook

israel wants peace with out suicide, arabs want war with a veneer of peace.

never will these two positions be compatable.

Someone smarter than me stated

If the Palis stopped fighting tomorrow there would be no more war

If the Israelis stopped fighting tomorrow there would be no more Israel

re: #41 Spare O'Lake

From Q.16 of the same poll:
61.5% of Iranians oppose any peace treaty recognizing the State of
Israel, and favor all Muslims continuing to fight
until there is no State of Israel in the Middle East.

[Link: www.terrorfreetomorrow.org...]

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, I'll take that Palestinian citizenship as an honorary one, thank you...

Alot of those religious jews want to be in Judea and Samaria because of the religious significance...as long as they are safe, the sovereignty issue is secondary.

This is a rhetorical point really that highlights the true obstacle to peace...Islamic Jew Hatred.

re: #55 MJ

The White House will see what they want to see in the speech and ignore the rest.

I imagine they will ignore the part that specifies the Pals must accept Israel's right to exist.

re: #71 _RememberTonyC

will there be "gamecocktails" served?

served, ordered, mixed, bought and drunk. my wife and kid are already down there (we have a condo at Pawleys Island S.C.) and I join them for two weeks staring next Sunday

re: #63 _RememberTonyC

Agreed ... I'll just have to go with a coke instead of a cabernet
...

Just do it later.

Whoa. You people are missing out on what Pres h-and-c is going to do. I spoke with rev wrong and he told me "them Jews" got the pres--therefore if things aren't going good for the Israelis' it must be "them Jews"--whoever they are! Right? We gots to tell Bibi. Do you thing the rev wrong could be wright? Just a thought.

re: #41 Spare O'Lake

A recent poll confirms that a majority of Iranians living in Iran are in favour of Iranian development of nuclear weapons.

Q12b: Apart from nuclear energy, do you favor or oppose the Government of the Islamic Republic of
Iran developing nuclear weapons?
...Frequency..Percent
Strongly favor...332...33.2
Somewhat favor...183...18.3
Somewhat oppose...72...7.2
Strongly oppose...329...32.9
Refused...13...1.3
Don't know...72...7.2
Total...1001...100.0
[Link: www.terrorfreetomorrow.org...]

Interesting poll. Assuming the poll is an accurate reflection of reality, what does being in favor of nukes, or vice versa, tell us about their feelings towards the mullahs? Putting things in the best possible light for those stating a majority of Iranians are anti-mullah, you could assume those against nuclear weapons are against them because those weapons represent power for the mullahs, so that's 40%. And that some percentage of those for nuclear weapons feel this way despite, not because of, their feelings towards the mullahs. Or that for them, the two issues are completely unrelated.

re: #46 Iron Fist

That would have been interesting. It'll never happen, but it should. It'd sort out the anti-Semites from the real "peace" lovers real quick.

I'm not sure that there'd be many of the latter around, though.

That is my point, they have to be called on it.

re: #74 Spare O'Lake

From Q.16 of the same poll:
61.5% of Iranians oppose any peace treaty recognizing the State of
Israel, and favor all Muslims continuing to fight
until there is no State of Israel in the Middle East.

[Link: www.terrorfreetomorrow.org...]

99.9 of the NYT Editorial Staff and Opinion page columnists agree with the Iranians.

I salute Mr. Netanyahu's courage.

I'll write Mr. Netanyahu a personal check to support him.

Though I'm unemployed/underemployed, I'd rather my US dollars support Netanyahu the ballsy Leader of the Free Democracies who opposes terrorists, than appeasers weakening my country & giving terrorists paid vacations in Bermuda.

re: #55 MJ

And they (meaning the White House and the media) will do precisely the same thing as was done with Sharon...(does anyone recall Sharon's conditions -- what were they, 14? 13? -- and how promptly George W Bush ignored them?) So the first thing to be dropped will be Netanyahu's conditions for Palestinian statehood. As I've mentioned previously, I think certain parties probably need to re-read Ze'ev Schiff"s "Israeli preconditions for Palestinian statehood" 1999. Nothing's changed...(the real questions remain -- among them being, of course, how, precisely does one "de-militarize" a state? especially when Israel is unable to even control Gaza. How is that to be accomplished? Admonish the Palis and say, "now, now, now, don't you be thinkin' about no army now! if you do, the UN might write a wery, wery, angry letter in response, you know." what a joke.)

re: #55 MJ

White House Calls Netanyahu Speech 'Important Step Forward'

The conservative Israeli leader for the first time conditionally endorsed the creation of a Palestinian state.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

The White House will see what they want to see in the speech and ignore the rest.

So, which part of Netanyahu's proposal did the Palestinians find "unreasonable"? The part about their state being "demilitarized"? Or the part about Israel continuing to exist?

Best guess- "If we consent to demilitarizing and our own state, the Zionists will still be alive, and that cannot be permitted."

/Sometimes it's difficult to tell the difference between a societal monomania and outright psychosis.

cheers

eon

re: #65 sattv4u2

8 cars ran out of gas on the last 2 laps

"Honey,,, I TOLD you to stop at that last station"

See, if they had to meet better fuel economy standards, they wouldn't have run out of gas! The government must issue fuel economy standards for race cars!
///SARC! Don't run me over.

re: #41 Spare O'Lake

I've seen other polls that suggest the opposite. I would take any poll out of Iran with a HUGE grain of salt.

re: #77 sattv4u2

served, ordered, mixed, bought and drunk. my wife and kid are already down there (we have a condo at Pawleys Island S.C.) and I join them for two weeks staring next Sunday

2 weeks on the beach ... with cocktails ... does it get any sweeter than that?

re: #77 sattv4u2

served, ordered, mixed, bought and drunk. my wife and kid are already down there (we have a condo at Pawleys Island S.C.) and I join them for two weeks staring next Sunday

Sweet! That sounds like fun!

re: #85 eon

So, which part of Netanyahu's proposal did the Palestinians find "unreasonable"? The part about their state being "demilitarized"? Or the part about Israel continuing to exist?

Best guess- "If we consent to demilitarizing and our own state, the Zionists will still be alive, and that cannot be permitted."

/Sometimes it's difficult to tell the difference between a societal monomania and outright psychosis.

cheers

eon

The acceptance of Israel as a Jewish State.

re: #74 Spare O'Lake

From Q.16 of the same poll:
61.5% of Iranians oppose any peace treaty recognizing the State of
Israel, and favor all Muslims continuing to fight
until there is no State of Israel in the Middle East.

[Link: www.terrorfreetomorrow.org...]

And they all want nukes.
Rest of comment deleted so I don't get banned.

re: #74 Spare O'Lake

At this point, our only razor-thin hope is that there are enough sane people in the Iranian military industrial complex to thwart any attempt by the mullahs to actually use their nuclear weapons.
Just the threat of such use, however, will profoundly alter the political landscape of the Middle East, with the Euros in particular gaining even more support for their profit-driven demands for appeasement.

re: #87 Sharmuta

I've seen other polls that suggest the opposite. I would take any poll out of Iran with a HUGE grain of salt.

SPARE has been touting this "poll" for 2 days now. I don't have it now, but I cut and pasted discrepencies FROM THE SAME POLL to him/her yesterday.

re: #88 _RememberTonyC

2 weeks on the beach ... with cocktails ... does it get any sweeter than that?

well ,,, I could trade i the wife and kid for a couple of ,,, umm, what honey ,, NO ,,, I didn't say ,, OUCH !

PA: Netanyahu has buried peace process

Palestinian Authority officials in Ramallah on Sunday expressed outrage and shock over Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's call for the establishment of a demilitarized Palestinian state and his demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

The officials said that the speech which Netanyahu delivered at Bar Ilan University was much worse than they had expected.

They also warned that Netanyahu's policies would trigger a new intifada.

/gee, you'd almost think they don't want peace with Israel

re: #62 HoosierHoops

I don't follow NASCAR...but Mark Martin, some years back, won a race, pulled in to the pit, found out he was a lap short. (Richmond, IIRC)

I became a fan of Mark, because that is the same kind of lame-brained stupid thing I would do.

re: #94 sattv4u2

I hate the beach. Greenpeace keeps trying to push me back into the water.

re: #30 livefreeor die

Screw Abbas.

One doesn't know who's screwed him...like, say, the Fish?

re: #95 Killian Bundy

PA: Netanyahu has buried peace process

/gee, you'd almost think they don't want peace with Israel

What wouldn't trigger a new intifada? ? ?

re: #77 sattv4u2

Whoever blinks first has to mix the drinks?
:)

re: #80 Flyers1974

Interesting poll. Assuming the poll is an accurate reflection of reality, what does being in favor of nukes, or vice versa, tell us about their feelings towards the mullahs? Putting things in the best possible light for those stating a majority of Iranians are anti-mullah, you could assume those against nuclear weapons are against them because those weapons represent power for the mullahs, so that's 40%. And that some percentage of those for nuclear weapons feel this way despite, not because of, their feelings towards the mullahs. Or that for them, the two issues are completely unrelated.

The bigger problem is that the same poll shows that 62% want all Muslims to keep fighting Israel until the State of Israel ceases to exist.
(See my post #74)
BTW, the editorial board of this polling group is John McCain, Lee Hamilton, Bill Frist, Charles Robb and Tom Kean.

“In the heart of Israel there lives a large group of Palestinians,“ the prime minister continued, noting his will to see a demilitarized Palestinian state existing peacefully alongside Israel.

DEMILITARIZED Palestinian state.
Let's see how this goes over with the Arabs.

re: #99 callahan23

Guess the Paleos want to go 0-and-3?

re: #61 Jim in Virginia

Interesting. I'm seeing reports of tanks at government buildings.

re: #87 Sharmuta

I've seen other polls that suggest the opposite. I would take any poll out of Iran with a HUGE grain of salt.

Many Americans don't trust polls dealing with political issues that are conducted here. I would think a poll coming out of Iran would be trusted even less.

I still like my "Jewtah" idea.

re: #96 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't follow NASCAR...but Mark Martin, some years back, won a race, pulled in to the pit, found out he was a lap short. (Richmond, IIRC)

I became a fan of Mark, because that is the same kind of lame-brained stupid thing I would do.

I think I should get in the car and go as fast as I can...
It's legal in Indiana! *wink*

re: #87 Sharmuta

I've seen other polls that suggest the opposite. I would take any poll out of Iran with a HUGE grain of salt.

By all means, I agree. But the credentials of the polling group is fairly good, as you can see from the site.

One thing Netanyahu left out, that he should continually mention, is the fact that Israel forcibly removed its own people from Gaza and gave up territory. To not even mention leaving Gaza means that all of that pain was for nothing.

Israel made a major concession that was unpopular with a large part of its population. It's the Palestinians' turn. Netanyahu needs to mention Israel leaving Gaza often, reminding peace creeps/two-staters that Israel has already made its significant concession; they're waiting for the other side to reciprocate with an equally significant concession.

If only our dear leader believed or spoke as this fine man.

Latest footage: "Death to dictators"

Netanyahu's Conditions for Peace

Interesting headline on this post. After visiting Israel, I'd say the only "condition for peace" is that the neighbors stop bombing buses and restaurants, stop shooting rockets over the border... the rest of this is commentary.

re: #93 sattv4u2

SPARE has been touting this "poll" for 2 days now. I don't have it now, but I cut and pasted discrepencies FROM THE SAME POLL to him/her yesterday.

I don't know how honest I would be in a poll conducted by a foreign group if I lived in a totalitarian system.

re: #103 Macker

Guess the Paleos want to go 0-and-3?

Nothing, really nothing will quench their thirst for Jewish blood.
It is anti-Semitism in it's pro-longest version any organization has yet had a chance to foster it.
Yuck, yuckedy, yuck yuck.

Do I need to say it - SPIT on the paleo's authorities and leaders

re: #95 Killian Bundy

Israel calling for a demilitarised Palestinian state is bound to be interpreted by some anti-Zionists/sections of the media as proof not of a realistic and sincere Israeli desire for peace, but of the fact that Israel wants to continue being the "truculent, regional military bully" that they erroneously believe it to be. With the popular propagation of that misconception, in many people's eyes, the ball will be once again find itself back Israel's court...

re: #101 Spare O'Lake

The bigger problem is that the same poll shows that 62% want all Muslims to keep fighting Israel until the State of Israel ceases to exist.
(See my post #74)
BTW, the editorial board of this polling group is John McCain, Lee Hamilton, Bill Frist, Charles Robb and Tom Kean.

Well, I've no basis for denying the honesty of those conducting the poll. In the US, we've heard of the practice of people intentionally foloing pollsters - which I don't think happens that often, or not enough to destroy the value of the poll. I would have no clue however, what Iranians attitudes are towards polls.

I give the Iranians a week to stop the protests or it's all over with. I think this will all be decided before next weekend.

re: #108 Spare O'Lake

By all means, I agree. But the credentials of the polling group is fairly good, as you can see from the site.

Yes- I looked. I've gotten in that habit. But if you lived in an oppressed country, and foreigners called you with a poll- would you be honest or give the standard, government approved answers?

re: #107 HoosierHoops

I think I should get in the car and go as fast as I can...
It's legal in Indiana! *wink*

Also here on most parts of the freeways. ;-)

re: #105 Flyers1974

Many Americans don't trust polls dealing with political issues that are conducted here. I would think a poll coming out of Iran would be trusted even less.

Of course polls must not be accepted at face value. However, this is a US poll conducted by a pretty reputable group. Check out the site.

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Explain please, "its all over with."

re: #119 callahan23

Also here on most parts of the freeways. ;-)

Damn it! I am so jealous! Hi Callahan!

re: #109 SeafoodGumbo

One thing Netanyahu left out, that he should continually mention, is the fact that Israel forcibly removed its own people from Gaza and gave up territory. To not even mention leaving Gaza means that all of that pain was for nothing.

Israel made a major concession that was unpopular with a large part of its population. It's the Palestinians' turn. Netanyahu needs to mention Israel leaving Gaza often, reminding peace creeps/two-staters that Israel has already made its significant concession; they're waiting for the other side to reciprocate with an equally significant concession.

exactly, and hence my point that if there is a Plaestinina State, it must not be made JudenFrei...the jews who are three must be allowed to stay and be Jewish citizens of the new state.

Gaza is what happens when the world allows ethnic cleaning of jews.

re: #117 Killgore Trout

I give the Iranians a week to stop the protests or it's all over with. I think this will all be decided before next weekend.

THIS ID A NON-STORY!11!

/pamela

re: #121 Flyers1974

Either the theocracy will collapse or the protests will fade. I'm starting to believe it's more likely that we'll see the end of the mullahs pretty soon.

re: #124 Sharmuta

Heh.

re: #120 Spare O'Lake

I saw the people you listed in your post, no reason to doubt your info on that. And no reason to doubt the integrity of those people. My questions would be more on the reliability of the answers on the Iranian side,

re: #114 callahan23

Nothing, really nothing will quench their thirst for Jewish blood.
It is anti-Semitism in it's pro-longest version any organization has yet had a chance to foster it.
Yuck, yuckedy, yuck yuck.

Do I need to say it - SPIT on the paleo's authorities and leaders

[Deleted]

re: #111 Killgore Trout

I find this inspiring. People standing up for their rights does that to me though.

re: #126 Killgore Trout

I had a hard time figuring out where to put an intentional typo. Did I do alright?

re: #125 Killgore Trout

we'll see the end of the mullahs pretty soon.

We'll see whirled peas first.

re: #116 Flyers1974

Well, I've no basis for denying the honesty of those conducting the poll. In the US, we've heard of the practice of people intentionally foloing pollsters - which I don't think happens that often, or not enough to destroy the value of the poll. I would have no clue however, what Iranians attitudes are towards polls.

I think that it largely depends on where the poll was carried out. Was it amongst Tehran's young and relatively well-educated middle class (the sort twittering the current unrest), or amongst the fanatical peasants of Achmadinejad's rural strongholds?

Also, we should factor in that many Iranians might understandably be nervous about expressing any views contrary to the official line.

re: #93 sattv4u2

SPARE has been touting this "poll" for 2 days now. I don't have it now, but I cut and pasted discrepencies FROM THE SAME POLL to him/her yesterday.

You cut and pasted total shit.

Koskidz...
Updated: Cont: Farsi Sources Latest News About Iran Coup

Mousavi warns I will take refuge at Khomeini's shrine. (archive and translation)

Mousavi has made a statement: "Ahmadinejad has had his big rally for his followers. I request a permit for the same. If I do not receive permission for a rally tomorrow, I will take refuge at Khomieni's shrine. This will cause much unrest and the political turmoil."

...and this commentary from an Iranian Koskid...

Everyone is calling this a coup. It will not happen over night. It seems to be unfolding the same as in 1979. It is not stoppable. Khamenei and Ahmadinejad had no intention of counting votes. Khamenei announced before the election, "If Ahmadinejad loses, I lose."

The reason people are not being killed is to avoid creating martyrs. In Islam there is a 40 day mourning period. One fortieth day after the death of a martyr, all hell breaks loose. Ahmadinejad will avoid this if possible.

This is really not about Mousavi. He is a bad at the rest. It is about the progressive movement in Iran which has been suppressed for thirty years. The genie is out of the bottle and will not go back in.

For the first time, in this election, the candidates raised the issue of corruption. This is a clear sign of a breakdown of unity at the very top.

It might be wishful thinking but i agree this is not about who won the election. This is a reaction against the system.

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Either the theocracy will collapse or the protests will fade. I'm starting to believe it's more likely that we'll see the end of the mullahs pretty soon.

Hopefully on the ends of ropes, much like their next-door neighbor got sent to Download City.

re: #131 tradewind

We'll see whirled peas first.

I'll take that bet.

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Either the theocracy will collapse or the protests will fade. I'm starting to believe it's more likely that we'll see the end of the mullahs pretty soon.

I had the same thought when I saw that lone brave kid standing in front of the tank in Tienemen square. I recall thinking THAT's power!
Unfortunately, the world didn;'t back up that young man. Unfortunately, it doesn't look as if the world (read US) is going to back these protetsters either

A "Demilitarized" Palestinian State is Netanyahu's way of focusing global attention on the likelihood of war from a Palestinian State. In fact, he would settle for moderate levels of military development.

Except: There is no way to prevent a sovereign state from arming itself. At some point in the process of re-armament a military intervention would be required to stop the development. This would mean war.

Remember the Treaty of Versailles and the limitations on Germany's re-armament? And how well that worked?

We may be on the path to peace but it's not at all clear how.

re: #133 Spare O'Lake

You cut and pasted total shit.

HAHAHA ,,, I cut and pasted from the site YOU had up. So ,, that site was toatl shit, huh ?
yet here you are sourcing it !

wow ,,, just ,,, WOW

re: #136 Killgore Trout

It seemed more polite than ' and monkeys might fly out of my butt '.

re: #122 HoosierHoops

Damn it! I am so jealous! Hi Callahan!

Hiya Hoopster, the no-speed-limit driving of course has its limitations. Close to my place there is some autobahns that have very hairy bends. On some occasions I flew downhill with approximately 130 mph and some left-right turn combination appeared in front of me.
Grit your teeth for that kind of experience.
;-)

re: #137 sattv4u2

I had the same thought when I saw that lone brave kid standing in front of the tank in Tienemen square. I recall thinking THAT's power!

Seared in my memory forever.

Brave, brave man.

re: #134 Killgore Trout

It might be wishful thinking but i agree this is not about who won the election. This is a reaction against the system.

I agree. They are tired of being oppressed. They're mad as hell, and they're not going to take it anymore.

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Either the theocracy will collapse or the protests will fade. I'm starting to believe it's more likely that we'll see the end of the mullahs pretty soon.

I'm a little pessimistic by nature, a least politically speaking, so I'm not where you are on that score. What would it take? I'd say the anti-mullah protests/riots would have to get massive, pretty quick.

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seared in my memory forever.

Brave, brave man.

and there were many standing there with him. Yet the world didn't

re: #94 sattv4u2

well ,,, I could trade i the wife and kid for a couple of ,,, umm, what honey ,, NO ,,, I didn't say ,, OUCH !

be careful what you wish for, dude!

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seared in my memory forever.

Brave, brave man.

I will never forget him.

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Either the theocracy will collapse or the protests will fade. I'm starting to believe it's more likely that we'll see the end of the mullahs pretty soon.

re: #131 tradewind

We'll see whirled peas first.

Not enough info to form an opinion, IMO.

re: #132 Sand Panda

I think that it largely depends on where the poll was carried out. Was it amongst Tehran's young and relatively well-educated middle class (the sort twittering the current unrest), or amongst the fanatical peasants of Achmadinejad's rural strongholds?

Also, we should factor in that many Iranians might understandably be nervous about expressing any views contrary to the official line.

It's only one poll, so let's just take it for what it's worth. Perhaps others will post other evidence of the views of the Iranian electorate.
But I for one am sick and tired of the unsubstantiated bullcrap about how most Iranians in Iran are supposedly such pro-western, wonderful folks.

re: #133 Spare O'Lake

I still think civility matters.

re: #147 Sharmuta

I will never forget him.

Image: tank.jpg

re: #127 Flyers1974

I saw the people you listed in your post, no reason to doubt your info on that. And no reason to doubt the integrity of those people. My questions would be more on the reliability of the answers on the Iranian side,

100% agreed.

re: #123 onepistoffyid

exactly, and hence my point that if there is a Plaestinina State, it must not be made JudenFrei...the jews who are three must be allowed to stay and be Jewish citizens of the new state.

Gaza is what happens when the world allows ethnic cleaning of jews.

And people who think it is fine that the Arabs don't want Jews, also think Israel should take Arab "refugees".
I'd ask them if "Palestine" is Judenrein, shouldn't Israel be able to expel all its Arabs to "Palestine"?
I'm not saying they should; I'm saying Jews should be able to live in Palestine with all rights.

re: #137 sattv4u2

I think the key difference is that the Chinese had firm control over their military. Once they decided to shut down the protests is only took a day or two. We'll see if the Iranian military steps in or not.

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Either the theocracy will collapse or the protests will fade. I'm starting to believe it's more likely that we'll see the end of the mullahs pretty soon.

I hope so.

Elsewhere on the side of the Right that dislikes LGF, after an admittedly slow start, Dan Collins of LGF and Donald Douglas(!) have posted on this. Jihadwatch(!) too. Some are more focused for now on blasting Obama's finger-in-the-windedness than on personal expressions of support for the Iranian people. But Douglas is quoting extensively from an Iranian who is reporting from Tehran - which weights his post more on the "solidarity" side.

Gates of Vienna are still silent though; they're banging on the Western Identity theme this weekend. Scum.

re: #151 sattv4u2

While digging through an old box of stuff this morning, I found some old folders with various scraps of writing from HS and college, and in the back of one of them was all my clippings from papers and magazines about the massacre. When I say I'll never forget Tiananmen- I mean it.

re: #104 Killgore Trout

Interesting. I'm seeing reports of tanks at government buildings.

To protect the government from the demonstrators or to attack the government?

re: #154 Killgore Trout

I think the key difference is that the Chinese had firm control over their military. Once they decided to shut down the protests is only took a day or two. We'll see if the Iranian military steps in or not.

The Revolutionary Guard is TOTALLY loyal to the Mullahs. i'm not 100% certain about the rest of the military, but the Guard are the elites

re: #151 sattv4u2

When I was in China our guard showed us the spot where that pic was taken. I'm pretty sure the photographer was inside a government building while he filmed the incident. It's surprising that footage ever got out.

re: #137 sattv4u2

I had the same thought when I saw that lone brave kid standing in front of the tank in Tienemen square. I recall thinking THAT's power!
Unfortunately, the world didn;'t back up that young man. Unfortunately, it doesn't look as if the world (read US) is going to back these protetsters either

The question is, what difference if any, is there between the Chinese then and Iranians now? China never had a taste of democracy and never had a middle class. Iran, at least for some, was somewhat free under the Shah.

re: #151 sattv4u2

I remember watching that... his posture... I think he thought they'd run him over. Kind of turned a little sideways at first...defensive position...

I've got goosebumps.

re: #150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I still think civility matters.

I do too, sorry to all concerned.

re: #141 callahan23

. Close to my place there is some autobahns that have very hairy bends.
;-)

Callahan are you a German or an American in Germany? I'm guessing the latter. DoD?

re: #157 Jim in Virginia

To protect the government from the demonstrators or to attack the government?

They are there (for now at least) to protect the government. It doesn't take much to turn that tank around and point it in the other direction.

re: #156 Sharmuta

While digging through an old box of stuff this morning, I found some old folders with various scraps of writing from HS and college, and in the back of one of them was all my clippings from papers and magazines about the massacre. When I say I'll never forget Tiananmen- I mean it.

you were in college in 1989?

DAMN , I'm old!

re: #141 callahan23

Hiya Hoopster, the no-speed-limit driving of course has its limitations. Close to my place there is some autobahns that have very hairy bends. On some occasions I flew downhill with approximately 130 mph and some left-right turn combination appeared in front of me.
Grit your teeth for that kind of experience.
;-)

Hey you! When I was a kid I drove my car from Yountville to Napa in about 8 minutes..At about 120 MPH..I think I own the record..For fastest run and stupidest thing I have ever done...Damn that was stupid

re: #163 Jim in Virginia

Callahan are you a German or an American in Germany? I'm guessing the latter. DoD?

The former, willing to exchange my nationality.

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Either the theocracy will collapse or the protests will fade. I'm starting to believe it's more likely that we'll see the end of the mullahs pretty soon.

According to PM, Evin prison's "sequestration wing" is being cleared, most likely in anticipation of new "guests". The mullahs are very likely preparing a roundup and "suppression" that will make Tienanmen Square look minor by comparison. (Remember Khomeini's "trials" and executions; the mullahs will not be reluctant to imitate their mentor.)

My best bud, the E-5, expects a civil war in Iran in the next five years, between young reformists who are sick and tired of living in a police state, and the mullahs and their supporters who are determined to bring about the Twelfth Imam's "advent". he believes the military will most likely side with the reformists. Of course, the Revolutionary Guard, Pasdaran, etc., are now at least as well-armed and funded as the military, if not more so, resulting in a situation in Iran very like that in Nazi Germany (Wehrmacht vs. SS/Gestapo) or the USSR (Red Army vs. KGB).

Such a civil war would most likely be bloody. And by the time it goes off, he points out, Iran will almost certainly have operational nuclear weapons.

Which means that it could be like Pakistan, only worse. If the mullahs believed they were losing, they'd have no reason not to try to take Israel down. And they're close enough to do it.

I don't see good times ahead for that area, anytime soon.

cheers

eon

re: #166 HoosierHoops

134... Interstate 77 into NC from VA.

Never want to go that fast again without an airplane wrapped around me.

re: #160 Flyers1974

The question is, what difference if any, is there between the Chinese then and Iranians now? China never had a taste of democracy and never had a middle class. Iran, at least for some, was somewhat free under the Shah.

That was a long long time ago. Most of the youth there have never felt that freedom. Those that could ($$$) fled just before the Shah was toppled. THEY somewhat knew what democracy was, but those that stayed behind didn't want it, for the most part

re: #138 AreaMan

A "Demilitarized" Palestinian State is Netanyahu's way of focusing global attention on the likelihood of war from a Palestinian State. In fact, he would settle for moderate levels of military development.

Except: There is no way to prevent a sovereign state from arming itself. At some point in the process of re-armament a military intervention would be required to stop the development. This would mean war.

Remember the Treaty of Versailles and the limitations on Germany's re-armament? And how well that worked?

We may be on the path to peace but it's not at all clear how.

This is a very good point. Since comparisons could be drawn between the overly-militarised and suicidal societies of the PLO and wartime Japan, perhaps some sort of constitutional compromise similar to Japan's Self Defence Forces is in order.

However, I really wonder how realistic it would be to keep the military, both on paper and on the ground, completely separate from any former members of, uh, unofficial, non-philosemitic groups prone to leaping through flaming hoops, and their numerous umbrella associations.

Dateline: 1989 "Media fostered, then abandoned Chinese rebels" By David Ignatius

The msm- same as they ever were.

re: #166 HoosierHoops

Hey you! When I was a kid I drove my car from Yountville to Napa in about 8 minutes..At about 120 MPH..I think I own the record..For fastest run and stupidest thing I have ever done...Damn that was stupid

Hwy 29 ain't exactly the autobahn

re: #139 sattv4u2

HAHAHA ,,, I cut and pasted from the site YOU had up. So ,, that site was toatl shit, huh ?
yet here you are sourcing it !

wow ,,, just ,,, WOW

Sorry for the harsh words.
You do have a way of really pissing me off, though.
By reason of our obvious communication problems it is probably better if you and I refrain from discussing this matter one on one.

re: #172 Sharmuta
Same as it ever was...

re: #153 Kosh's Shadow

And people who think it is fine that the Arabs don't want Jews, also think Israel should take Arab "refugees".
I'd ask them if "Palestine" is Judenrein, shouldn't Israel be able to expel all its Arabs to "Palestine"?
I'm not saying they should; I'm saying Jews should be able to live in Palestine with all rights.

Yes, Yes, EXACTLY! Why does nobody mention this? This is a groundbreaking point that needs to be repeated by everyone as a Mantra because it beautifully illustrates the true agenda...Jew Hatred.

re: #169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

134... Interstate 77 into NC from VA.

Never want to go that fast again without an airplane wrapped around me.

LOL
The 2nd most visited place in California is Napa Valley...I went down Highway 29 in the middle of the Night to Napa at least 120 MPH...Stupid punk thing to do...I had a girl in the car and we were playing Petty at full blast!
Stupid kids

The smart thing about Netanyahu's words are that they confine Obama more that the Palestinians.

He has taken the sticks away that Obama can hit him with. He has defused the rhetoric that Obama would otherwise seize in order to place Israel and the Palestinians in the same "unreasonable" camp.

Instead, Obama has to actually talk the Palestinians into coming to the table with the prospect that the Palestinians may actually have to concede that Jews have a right to live there under a Jewish state.

It seems like a rhetorical departure for Netanyahu, but it is quite clever. And if Obama turns on Israel nonetheless, Netanyahu will have a free hand at that point.

I am truly anxious to hear what Barack and Hillary will say to this. How can they possibly disagree?

re: #153 Kosh's Shadow

And people who think it is fine that the Arabs don't want Jews, also think Israel should take Arab "refugees".
I'd ask them if "Palestine" is Judenrein, shouldn't Israel be able to expel all its Arabs to "Palestine"?
I'm not saying they should; I'm saying Jews should be able to live in Palestine with all rights.

Also don't forget the 800,00 Jewish refugees from arab lands expelled in 1948...can they be repatriated to their former homelands...I don't think so...double standards anyone...?

Obama are you listening?

re: #179 Cato the Elder

I am truly anxious to hear what Barack and Hillary will say to this. How can they possibly disagree?

Oh, to be a Fly On The Wall at either the White House, Foggy Bottom, or both...

re: #174 Spare O'Lake

Sorry for the harsh words.
You do have a way of really pissing me off, though.
By reason of our obvious communication problems it is probably better if you and I refrain from discussing this matter one on one.

TRANSLATION

I really don't like being questioned or criticized, so please ignore anything I post no matter how brilliant or ridiculous it may be!

Riiihhhgggttt!

re: #177 HoosierHoops

LOL
The 2nd most visited place in California is Napa Valley...I went down Highway 29 in the middle of the Night to Napa at least 120 MPH...Stupid punk thing to do...I had a girl in the car and we were playing Petty at full blast!
Stupid kids

"Free Fallin"

re: #166 HoosierHoops

Hey you! When I was a kid I drove my car from Yountville to Napa in about 8 minutes..At about 120 MPH..I think I own the record..For fastest run and stupidest thing I have ever done...Damn that was stupid

Wow,
my dads car was a Audi 200 Turbo which I was supposed to drive to a 20 miles away destination. Arriving at the 'entrance' of a valley-bottom road I saw a Datsun 200 ZX appearing in my rearview mirror, we had about the same horsepowers.
Before every bend I pushed the breaks with my left foot whilst maintaining the revolutions for the turbo with my right foot to whiplash me out of the bend after a little after half of the bend.
The Datsun after I exited that road was nowhere to be seen and as it was dusk I was seeing the break-disks glowing.
What a m***-fucking crazy ride.

re: #41 Spare O'Lake

A recent poll confirms that a majority of Iranians living in Iran are in favour of Iranian development of nuclear weapons.

Q12b: Apart from nuclear energy, do you favor or oppose the Government of the Islamic Republic of
Iran developing nuclear weapons?
...Frequency..Percent
Strongly favor...332...33.2
Somewhat favor...183...18.3
Somewhat oppose...72...7.2
Strongly oppose...329...32.9
Refused...13...1.3
Don't know...72...7.2
Total...1001...100.0
[Link: www.terrorfreetomorrow.org...]

I assume this poll was done through random calls, well just to let you know, when I was in Iran, if I got such a call, I would have either hanged off or agreed 100% to everything regime wants, at least say it that way.

The reason is the one and only time I talked about satellite receiver/dish to a friend and recommended it over phone, the next day, the knocked on my door, took the receiver, dish and my laptop. I payed off a lot of people to get out of that. Never got back my laptop. I was only exceptionally lucky that I had no drinks at home at that time.

Being politically active, both of us were targets for wiretaps, never found which one got tapped and both fled not long after.

That is how much you can trust polls from Iran.

re: #182 sattv4u2

Damn. You are from Boston.

re: Cato the Elder

I am truly anxious to hear what Barack and Hillary will say to this. How can they possibly disagree?

They are trying hard to figure out a way that they can so they can be seen as neutral arbiters between two unreasonable sides. Such a position is the one the Clintons always tried for and the one Obama desperately wants.

bibi ain't gonna give it to him.

re: #184 callahan23

That's a pretty funny way to censor that word! ;-)

re: #186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Damn. You are from Boston.

HEHEHEHEH,,, you have NO idea!

Since I really don't care what Bibi is saying since that has zero relevance in moving forward and anything that comes out of his, Obama's or Clinton's mouths right now is just empty posturing at best I am going to spread some rumours instead. There is talk coming out of Iran about Khameini's house being surrounded by Ahmadinejahd's men. And THAT would be a scary concept.

re: #184 callahan23

You censored mother?

re: #173 _Remembering

Hwy 29 ain't exactly the autobahn

That ain't no shit...The nice thing about growing up in Yountville is that the Veterans home is there...I grew up in a town of 2000 people and most of them were hero's...
*Salutes our America Hero's* Every old man in the streets had a story to tell...
That's the way they roll

re: #188 Sand Panda

MMTA!

re: #170 sattv4u2

That was a long long time ago. Most of the youth there have never felt that freedom. Those that could ($$$) fled just before the Shah was toppled. THEY somewhat knew what democracy was, but those that stayed behind didn't want it, for the most part

I agree completely. One point though. I think there is a difference between Iran and say, Iraq under Sadaam. Under Sadaam, I'd guess the chance of survival after one's political dissent became known was pretty close to zero. If I'm not mistaken Iranians have critisized the Mullahs, even in newspapers. These newspapers were shut down, sometimes with more frequency than at other times, and people were of course put in prison, again with differing frequency and sometimes killed. BUT, conditions were nowhere near as oppressive as under Sadaam. So the people would have some idea of freedoms.

CIA head says Cheney almost wishing US be attacked
AP
47 mins ago

WASHINGTON – CIA Director Leon Panetta says former Vice President Dick Cheney's criticism of the Obama administration's approach to terrorism almost suggests "he's wishing that this country would be attacked again, in order to make his point."

Panetta told The New Yorker for an article in its June 22 issue that Cheney "smells some blood in the water" on the issue of national security.

re: #6 ejp0805

“The biggest threat to Israel, and the middle east and all of humanity is the meeting between radical Islamism and nuclear weaponry.”

I can't see how any reasonable person could possibly disagree with that statement.

The only way to agree with that statement is to agree that there is such a thing as "radical Islamism". To think that "radical Islamism" exists, you have to believe in "moderate Islamism".

I think you can see where this is going...

re: #193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

LOL!

re: #188 Sand Panda

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You censored mother?

Yes because it is not that appropriate to swear and use the word 'mother' in the same context.
But I needed the swearing part. ;-)

re: FurryOldGuyJeans

CIA head says Cheney almost wishing US be attacked
AP
47 mins ago

When I lived in SLO, Panetta was my Representative and I like the guy.

That statement he just made is vile.

re: #185 brucee

Are you an Iranian?

re: #138 AreaMan

I recall a long-standing joke here in Canada. It was about "The Reform Party"...the "reform" party was headed up by ultra-rightwing old guys...the joke on the left became simply to state (in a high-pitched, quavering voice): "R-E-F-O-R-M!" and that alone would cause people to burst out laughing...(the contrast in images-- the idea of "REFORM!" coupled with a doddering, near senile, old folk hobbling along...)...anyway, I've heard the cries: "Reform!" now in number of variations (including with the 70+ Mir-Hossein Mousavi), and I keep recalling that joke...Yeah, "R-E-F-O-R-M!"

re: #195 FurryOldGuyJeans

CIA head says Cheney almost wishing US be attacked
AP
47 mins ago

The Biden quote from the article is a real hoot:

Asked if he agreed with Panetta, Vice President Joe Biden told NBC's "Meet the Press" that he wouldn't question the motive behind Cheney's criticism.

"I think Dick Cheney's judgment about how to secure America is faulty," Biden said. "I think our judgment is correct."

re: #193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ah, my first all acronym conversion; I feel like a true citizen of the intertubes!

Maybe we should ask callahan to lie down on the lizard couch and tell us how he feels about his smoth-I mean mother! ;-)

re: #194 Flyers1974

I agree. Iran hasn't been as oppressive as Iraq under Saddam, even after Kohmenie was put back in power. But my point was (and has been) A) the mullahs are still in control, B) the Revolutionary Guard is still very loyal to the mullahs C) if the mullahs didn;t want dinnerjacket to be re-elected, he wouldn';t have been

And finally, just like 1989 China Tianemen square, so far there is NO world (read USA) support for the protesters

re: #199 karmic_inquisitor

When I lived in SLO, Panetta was my Representative and I like the guy.

That statement he just made is vile.

I am reminded of Nixon's Enemies List reading the man's words, and not favorably.

re: #195 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hmmm. It's tough to say but if something does blow up it almost even probability of the suspects being Islamists or right wing extremists. I know I'll catch a lot of shit for that statement but I really think that's where we're headed.

re: #198 callahan23

Tell that to Samuel L. Jackson.

Hellooo^ooo

re: Killgore Trout

Hmmm. It's tough to say but if something does blow up it almost even probability of the suspects being Islamists or right wing extremists. I know I'll catch a lot of shit for that statement but I really think that's where we're headed.

The right wing extremists can't put together an attack that the Islamists can.

After McVeigh the FBI put together tools and techniques to keep a lid on these guys. They can't assemble truck bombs unnoticed. Islamists are another matter because they are assumed to get foreign assistance whereas the "world view" of the right wing kook pretty much excludes foreign assistance of any kind.

re: #203 Sand Panda

OMG!

re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Tell that to Samuel L. Jackson.

Jackson is a pure stud...I love that dude in Movies

re: #195 FurryOldGuyJeans

CIA head says Cheney almost wishing US be attacked
AP
47 mins ago

Nice smear on Cheney. They're attacking him because he's been effective. He's the closest thing we have to a leader at this point.

re: #203 Sand Panda

Ah, my first all acronym conversion; I feel like a true citizen of the intertubes!

Maybe we should ask callahan to lie down on the lizard couch and tell us how he feels about his smoth-I mean mother! ;-)

I am not gonna deliberate about that.
;-)

re: #206 Killgore Trout

Hmmm. It's tough to say but if something does blow up it almost even probability of the suspects being Islamists or right wing extremists. I know I'll catch a lot of shit for that statement but I really think that's where we're headed.

No way, dude. If something blows up we KNOW it's another gov't inside job carried out by Haliburton so they can get the contract to rebuild ! You know, steel has never burned! And I have a freind who has a cousin that had a next door neighbow who had a cat. Seems as if the lady that walked the cat knew a guy who owned an ice cream truck that was in Dallas the day Kennedy got shot. The ice cream guy saw Dick Cheney with an Oswald mask on !

DUDE !

///

re: #206 Killgore Trout

Can someone logically explain to me why the crazy whackjob kooks are affiliated as "right wing"? I've heard things from "because they use guns and freedom to have a gun is a conservative tenant" to "because leftists are peaceniks" - neither of which hold a lot of water for me. What I see is libertarians gone bad, and Republicans refusing to shun them from the "big tent" we like to think we have. I think there are those on the right, those on the left and those that are just damn crazy and wrong on ALL the issues.

re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Tell that to Samuel L. Jackson.

"Enough is enough! I have HAD IT with these motherfuckin' Mullahs on this motherfuckin' planet!"

re: #210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OMGWTFBBQ!

re: #185 brucee

I assume this poll was done through random calls, well just to let you know, when I was in Iran, if I got such a call, I would have either hanged off or agreed 100% to everything regime wants, at least say it that way.

The reason is the one and only time I talked about satellite receiver/dish to a friend and recommended it over phone, the next day, the knocked on my door, took the receiver, dish and my laptop. I payed off a lot of people to get out of that. Never got back my laptop. I was only exceptionally lucky that I had no drinks at home at that time.

Being politically active, both of us were targets for wiretaps, never found which one got tapped and both fled not long after.

That is how much you can trust polls from Iran.

Great story. When were you there and what was your job?

re: #209 karmic_inquisitor

Even Jeff Toobin of CNN has stated that there are magnitudes of difference between right-wing extremists in the United States and Islamist, terrorist groups. No comparison.

re: #215 ArmyWife

How is the house coming along?
(armywife)

re: #200 Sharmuta

Are you an Iranian?

Yes, why?

re: #217 Sand Panda

OMGWTFVBBQ!

FTFM

re: #159 Killgore Trout

That's not true at all.. There were multiple photos and video taken from AP and other outlets when the tank man stood his ground. The Times had the backstory on that on the anniversary of Tienanmen Square. They even found a different angle than the one that became the famous shot.

re: #184 callahan23

/Wow! Are you from Bahstahn?

That is called a slow driver ('drivah') in Bahstahn. ;)

re: #195 FurryOldGuyJeans

CIA head says Cheney almost wishing US be attacked
AP
47 mins ago

Let's see, first Panetta (a former Dem Congresscritter) agrees with San Fran Nan that CIA personnel (whom he now is in charge of ) may have been "less than truthful" to her- then backs off after getting an earful from ... CIA personnel, who know that lying to Congress can get them thrown in jail, and aren't stupid enough to try it.

Now, when a former VOTUS makes an observation that is probably being made a lot of places in the intelligence/ military community (admittedly, OTR) right now, Panetta claims he's itching for Americans to be harmed.

Dare I say it?

Hack.

cheers

eon

re: Iron Fist

I sense a great deal of ambivalence and doubt in your post.

You should try to express what you really feel.

//

re: #215 ArmyWife

I've heard things from "because they use guns and freedom to have a gun is a conservative tenant" to "because leftists are peaceniks" -

I've had this debate too many times. If you are genuinely curious you can google and read up on the left-right concept of politics. I've wasted hours trying to explain it to people unwilling to understand the concept and found that most often it's just a waste of time.

I was amazed to see Code Pink outside Bar Ilan University. Apparently one of the accompanying photographers was arrested which led to a fracas with the police. I missed that part.

Somewhat ironic that they only had posters and slogans in English. A new tourism gimmick - protest tourism, inc guided tours of Israeli penal system - better than Gaza worse than Gitmo.

Leaving aside the specific issues of American support (or otherwise) of Israel, who thinks citizens of one country have the automatic right of peaceful protest in another? Isn't peaceful protest a right restricted to citizens?

re: #224 lawhawk

That's not true at all.. There were multiple photos and video taken from AP and other outlets when the tank man stood his ground. The Times had the backstory on that on the anniversary of Tienanmen Square. They even found a different angle than the one that became the famous shot.
Wow. Much thanks for posting that. I wasn't aware that other people had looked into that before.

[Video]

re: #218 Iron Fist

Panetta should go fuck himself. The truth is that the Obama Administration is trying to play patti-cake with enemies that want to kill us. They can't seem to get it through their head that they didn't ride into town on pink unicorns and make everything copacetic with the Mohammedans.

If we get hit again, it will be the fault of the Obama Administration. To me, it looks like the Administration is already looking harder to find a way to weasel out of responsibility for the attack than they are expending to actually prevent such an attack.

Did you read the Biden quote at the end of the article? Eerily evocative of Biden's Seattle speech during the campaign about appearing to be doing the wrong thing.

re: #222 brucee

Yes, why?

Because it's adds credence to your comments concerning Iran.

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FTFM?

FTFY

FTFM?

re: #229 deegee

But don't you see? They're all Citizens of the World!

/

re: #224 lawhawk

I'm ashamed to say, I'm just not that brave.

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #233 Sand Panda

FTFM?

FTFY

FTFM?

Sand Pand

Fat Veggie has trouble with letters. He has his colors and numbers (up to 10) down pat though!

re: #221 HoosierHoops

Hi there! Its coming - waiting on my truckload of roman shades and rethinking my black toile room idea. What about chocolate brown instead? I'm liking that more as the tile in my bathroom is tan with cool scrolls. It will still be romantic with scrolls, toile and pillows (with a lot of candles, of course) and I could forgo painting my furniture black.

re: #233 Sand Panda

FIXED THAT FOR ME!

(ADDED A V FOR VEGETARIAN BARBECUE.)

re: #235 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm ashamed to say, I'm just not that brave.

BOO!

re: #239 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FIXED THAT FOR ME!

(ADDED A V FOR VEGETARIAN BARBECUE.)

Well, you can keep any vegetarian barbecue you fix to yourself!

This panda's carnivorous.

re: #240 sattv4u2

BOO!

BBIAM.

(Don't do that! Gotta change pants.)

re: #180 onepistoffyid

Also don't forget the 800,00 Jewish refugees from arab lands expelled in 1948...can they be repatriated to their former homelands...I don't think so...double standards anyone...?

Obama are you listening?

Obama could care less.

Is this what you were mentioning re the expulsion of the Jews?

re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BBIAM.

(Don't do that! Gotta change pants.)

you're wearing clothes today? Why !?!?!

re: #241 Sand Panda

BTW...cutest freakin' avatar!

re: #225 NY Nana

/Wow! Are you from Bahstahn?

That is called a slow driver ('drivah') in Bahstahn. ;)

What is Bahstahn? Something to do with Boston?
I am actually quite a swift driver. ;-)
Hi how is things today NY Nana?

re: #224 lawhawk

That's not true at all.. There were multiple photos and video taken from AP and other outlets when the tank man stood his ground. The Times had the backstory on that on the anniversary of Tienanmen Square. They even found a different angle than the one that became the famous shot.

[Video]

Thank you for that.

re: #245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #241 Sand Panda

BTW...cutest freakin' avatar!

Sooo true. Sooo sweet.

Well, DUH!

Disputed Iranian ballot complicates US diplomacy
AP
By ROBERT BURNS, AP National Security Writer Robert Burns, Ap National Security Writer – 45 mins ago

WASHINGTON – The crackdown on dissent following the disputed elections in Iran puts the Obama administration in a tougher spot, as it sticks with diplomacy as the best way to end that country's nuclear weapons program.

Vice President Joe Biden said Sunday that efforts to engage Tehran, with the central goal of halting its pursuit of nuclear weapons, will continue. But the charges of vote fraud and the battles between police and opposition protesters appear to be major setbacks for the new U.S. administration's policy.

Did these doofuses really expect just getting into office would be the end-all of international politics and policies?

OT

Tanks arrive at Interior Ministry in Iran.

Per [Link: twitter.com...]

re: #241 Sand Panda

re: #245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BTW...cutest freakin' avatar!

I agree. How long did it take to cook that way ?!?!?

The "right to return" is one issue that I love to trip leftists up on.

First you point out the irony that so many Jews were expelled from so many Arab countries without any compensation.

You then get obfuscation and general appeals to cultural issues and Arab identity.

And when that happens, it is fun to hit them with cultural diversity -

"Wouldn't these Arab states be stronger societies if they had more cultural diversity?"

Stuttering and a change of topic usually follows.