Video: Iranian Militia Fires on Protesters
World • Views: 3,206
Video of the Iranian Basiji militia firing with AK-47s on protesters in Tehran:
[Video removed…]
319 comments
3 |
Honorary Yooper Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:22:01pm |
I think the mullahs have lost control of the situation.
| 4 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:22:02pm |
But if Obama would just say the word, it would all stop.
| 5 |
Honorary Yooper Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:23:04pm |
re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans
Not good, not good, not good.
No, not good at all. The mullahs have turned to force, and I don't think the populace will back down. Seems to me they could end up in the Shah's position in 1979.
| 6 |
Dancing along the light of day Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:24:08pm |
The test post video works here.
| 7 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:24:29pm |
I hate to say it, but they need to expect this. The folks going out in the street need to start figuring out how to counter this. Throwing rocks - provided there are enough of you and not enough of them - will work. But it's better to take cover than take casualties.
Time to start thinking, Iranians, not just emoting.
| 8 |
Kosh's Shadow Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:25:30pm |
re: #5 Honorary Yooper
No, not good at all. The mullahs have turned to force, and I don't think the populace will back down. Seems to me they could end up in the Shah's position in 1979.
Or worse. Where would they go? Is there another Shi'ite country that would take them? Maybe they'll just get their virgins.
| 9 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:25:54pm |
re: #5 Honorary Yooper
No, not good at all. The mullahs have turned to force, and I don't think the populace will back down. Seems to me they could end up in the Shah's position in 1979.
The Second Iranian Revolution is not looking so good for the Mullahs.
| 10 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:26:12pm |
re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans
Not good, not good, not good.
Wrong - very good.
Now the protesters know what they're up against. The illusions are fading. If they're going to keep going, they have to be clear that when you tell armed men that you're going to kill them, you bloody well better mean it.
And start thinking. And planning. And finding a few of your number who know which end the bullet emerges from.
| 11 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:26:32pm |
re: #3 Honorary Yooper
I think the mullahs have lost control of the situation.
Not yet. But they're close.
| 13 |
doppelganglander Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:27:18pm |
| 14 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:27:33pm |
re: #8 Kosh's Shadow
Or worse. Where would they go? Is there another Shi'ite country that would take them? Maybe they'll just get their virgins.
Carter allowed the Shah into the US, so maybe O can do the same if the Mullahs get tossed.
/ fine tactical move there.
| 15 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:27:57pm |
re: #5 Honorary Yooper
No, not good at all. The mullahs have turned to force, and I don't think the populace will back down. Seems to me they could end up in the Shah's position in 1979.
From your keyboard to God's monitor!
| 16 |
BlueCanuck Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:27:57pm |
Well, looks like the people are looking to find people and ID them after they commit acts of violence:
bahram81: Activists call for help to catalog faces of plain-cloths militia4 later IDing.,thy r d ones who r shooting at ppl, u can help #iranelection
bahram81: Plain-cloths militia man stabbing people IDENTIFIED! link #iranelection
Good luck folks.
| 17 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:28:50pm |
Appears the authorities are sending out tweets with misleading info. From StopAhmadi's continuation of today's summary:
Earlier today we saw many fake tweets about the cancellation of the Mousavi rally today, it was just to mislead ppl.
| 18 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:29:46pm |
Mullah bullah
Mullah bullah
Mullah bullah
Hey yeah.
| 19 |
doppelganglander Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:29:51pm |
It's the first Twitter revolution. Wild.
| 20 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:29:58pm |
re: #17 reine.de.tout
Appears the authorities are sending out tweets with misleading info. From StopAhmadi's continuation of today's summary:
Earlier today we saw many fake tweets about the cancellation of the Mousavi rally today, it was just to mislead ppl.
The regime would be idiotic not to put out counter-propaganda and disinformation.
Their only hope is to confuse the opposition.
| 21 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:30:03pm |
re: #17 reine.de.tout
Appears the authorities are sending out tweets with misleading info. From StopAhmadi's continuation of today's summary:
Earlier today we saw many fake tweets about the cancellation of the Mousavi rally today, it was just to mislead ppl.
Which makes me think the cyber-war tweet was another misinformation tidbit.
| 22 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:31:16pm |
re: #20 Dianna
The regime would be idiotic not to put out counter-propaganda and disinformation.
Their only hope is to confuse the opposition.
I've seen several "warnings" from the twitterers - one warning was, "I DO NOT KNOW THIS USER, do not use the proxy he published".
They seem to be keeping each other informed and warned.
| 23 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:32:15pm |
re: #22 reine.de.tout
I've seen several "warnings" from the twitterers - one warning was, "I DO NOT KNOW THIS USER, do not use the proxy he published".
They seem to be keeping each other informed and warned.
Good for them. But they're going to have a problem if even one of the "trusted" gets taken. I hope they set up some "I'm under duress" phrases.
| 24 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:32:59pm |
re: #23 Dianna
Good for them. But they're going to have a problem if even one of the "trusted" gets taken. I hope they set up some "I'm under duress" phrases.
Yep.
I am so utterly fascinated by this, I get up for a few minutes and find myself drawn back.
| 25 |
turn Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:34:12pm |
I hope the Iranian people rise up and roll over them Mullahs tomorrow, this time with real weapons. I wonder what Chrissie, Olbermann, and Maddow will have to say about all this tonight - or not. Better still, what is O going to say? Later lizards, time to go walk the lab along the American.
| 26 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:34:25pm |
Digital communications do enable rapid and massive organization. They also enable disinformation. Cyberwarfare indeed!
| 27 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:34:34pm |
re: #23 Dianna
Good for them. But they're going to have a problem if even one of the "trusted" gets taken. I hope they set up some "I'm under duress" phrases.
I hope the CIA and NSA are watching closely what is happening in Iran with all the technology. They could certainly learn a number of things of how an information war is fought in the 21st Century.
| 28 |
KenJen Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:34:37pm |
I may bitch and groan about our current leadership but thank God I live in this country.
| 29 |
mikalm Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:34:42pm |
According to a leftist friend of mine who's watching the Iranian uprising, Americans should have done the same thing during the 2000 and 2004 elections, but we were too busy with "cheeseburgers and American Idol" to do so.
| 30 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:34:52pm |
re: #28 KenJen
I may bitch and groan about our current leadership but thank God I live in this country.
DITTO!
| 31 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:35:25pm |
re: #29 mikalm
According to a leftist friend of mine who's watching the Iranian uprising, Americans should have done the same thing during the 2000 and 2004 elections, but we were too busy with "cheeseburgers and American Idol" to do so.
Did you point at him and laugh? Or just sigh?
| 33 |
filetandrelease Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:35:30pm |
With twitter news is now instant in these situations. Just last week I was thinking, who wants to read a news paper? it is yesterdays news, now it's, Drudge? hell that was so five minutes ago.
| 34 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:35:56pm |
re: #29 mikalm
Your leftist "friend" wasn't in Miami during the election contest in 2000. 100,000 Republican protesters were on the street.
| 35 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:36:02pm |
re: #7 Dianna
I hate to say it, but they need to expect this. The folks going out in the street need to start figuring out how to counter this. Throwing rocks - provided there are enough of you and not enough of them - will work. But it's better to take cover than take casualties.
Time to start thinking, Iranians, not just emoting.
They need some sort of organized guerrilla activity.
| 36 |
mich-again Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:36:06pm |
The question is who makes up the Basij. Who could turn a rifle on his own countrymen and shoot to kill at random? My guess is that some if not many are foreign mercenaries. I don't think the Azeri Turk Mullahs could rely on Persian Iranians to kill off their countrymen. But a thug from Gaza or Syria would work just fine for that purpose.
| 37 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:36:25pm |
Unconfirmed, from Iran09:
UNCONF: RT: @lotfan: Explosions are being heard around Shahrak Gharb in Tehran #iranelection
| 38 |
Last Mohican Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:36:43pm |
re: #4 Cato the Elder
But if Obama would just say the word, it would all stop.
Your repeated insults directed at those who criticize Obama over his handling of this have been duly noted by all. You had a good point, and you made it effectively, though insultingly. Now you're just being insulting.
| 41 |
mikalm Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:36:59pm |
re: #31 Dianna
Did you point at him and laugh? Or just sigh?
It's a her. And to complete the Leftist Trifecta, she went on to say that she wants to take people to the streets to push for nationalized health care.
I love her dearly, but she's a bloody fool.
| 42 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:37:04pm |
re: #36 mich-again
The question is who makes up the Basij. Who could turn a rifle on his own countrymen and shoot to kill at random? My guess is that some if not many are foreign mercenaries. I don't think the Azeri Turk Mullahs could rely on Persian Iranians to kill off their countrymen. But a thug from Gaza or Syria would work just fine for that purpose.
Some of the tweets have suggested there are some Lebanese that have been brought in.
| 43 |
Last Mohican Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:37:52pm |
re: #35 Wendya
They need some sort of organized guerrilla activity.
I think that would probably require some support from outside the country, no?
I'm not arguing that my country or any other country should help. I'm just sayin'.
| 44 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:37:53pm |
If the mullahs lose control of all or parts of Tehran for any period of time, the game's afoot. Watch the TV stations and telecommunications centers.
| 45 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:38:22pm |
re: #41 mikalm
It's a her. And to complete the Leftist Trifecta, she went on to say that she wants to take people to the streets to push for nationalized health care.
I love her dearly, but she's a bloody fool.
Why would I take to the streets to ask for something worse than what I have right now?
| 46 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:38:29pm |
re: #39 BlueCanuck
Beat me to it. :)
Heh.
You here for awhile?
I really need to get up for awhile; don't know if it'll last, I'm so fascinated by this.
| 47 |
mich-again Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:38:46pm |
re: #42 reine.de.tout
Some of the tweets have suggested there are some Lebanese that have been brought in.
The Mullahs don't send all that cash to Nasrallah expecting nothing in return.
| 48 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:38:54pm |
You give me mu-u-llahs
That's what I want
You give me mu-u-u-lahs
That's what I want
| 49 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:39:09pm |
re: #42 reine.de.tout
Some of the tweets have suggested there are some Lebanese that have been brought in.
Wouldn't surprise me if some of the Iraqi "freedom fighters" infiltrate back across the border.
| 50 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:39:13pm |
re: #4 Cato the Elder
If Obama says he doesn't support the demonstrators, it will, indeed, all stop.
| 52 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:40:04pm |
re: #35 Wendya
They need some sort of organized guerrilla activity.
Wrong time and place. They'd be more likely to harm their own cause than help topple the regime.
The mullahs could pretend to surrender; call for "clean elections" or something. That might work. But the demonstrators may have the bit too firmly between their teeth for that, and the mullahs may be a little too convinced of their own righteousness to do it.
Interesting times.
I'm using my "revolution checklist." The demonstrators are pretty much on track. The regime's not doing so well for putting it down.
| 53 |
KenJen Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:40:06pm |
| 54 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:40:30pm |
OK gun lizards, what is that he firing with, an AK something or other?
| 55 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:40:31pm |
| 56 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:41:04pm |
re: #41 mikalm
I love her dearly, but she's a bloody fool.
I have a few of those, too.
Stand ready to rescue her from the consequences of her folly.
| 57 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:41:19pm |
re: #43 Last Mohican
I think that would probably require some support from outside the country, no?
I'm not arguing that my country or any other country should help. I'm just sayin'.
Not necessarily. They can inflict specific targeted damage, enough to rattle the mullahs, at least on their own.
| 58 |
filetandrelease Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:41:34pm |
re: #52 Dianna
According to your check list, if things go well for the revolutionaries, what should happen next?
| 59 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:41:35pm |
re: Nevergiveup
OK gun lizards, what is that he firing with, an AK something or other?
It's a standard AK-47 ...
[Link: www.enemyforces.net...]
| 60 |
samsgran1948 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:41:42pm |
re: #4 Cato the Elder
But if Obama would just say the word, it would all stop.
It's 3:00am, and Bambi is in bed with the covers over his head, hoping that the whole thing will blow over before his alarm goes off.
| 61 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:41:44pm |
re: #45 EmmmieG
Why would I take to the streets to ask for something worse than what I have right now?
But, but, EVERYONE will have it the same! We have to spread the misery!
| 62 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:05pm |
re: #36 mich-again
The question is who makes up the Basij. Who could turn a rifle on his own countrymen and shoot to kill at random? My guess is that some if not many are foreign mercenaries. I don't think the Azeri Turk Mullahs could rely on Persian Iranians to kill off their countrymen. But a thug from Gaza or Syria would work just fine for that purpose.
Ideology plus corruption can go a long, long way to explaining it.
| 63 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:13pm |
| 64 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:22pm |
re: #54 Nevergiveup
OK gun lizards, what is that he firing with, an AK something or other?
Probably so... from Russia.
| 65 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:34pm |
re: #61 FurryOldGuyJeans
But, but, EVERYONE will have it the same! We have to spread the misery!
I'm just dreaming of an America in which my daughter has to have a 10 month pregnancy because there's no space on the waiting list for a 9 month pregnancy.
| 66 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:47pm |
I wish we had a rooster cam in Iran.
| 67 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:53pm |
re: #36 mich-again
I get the impression that they're a militia. From the pics and video I've seen they are untrained, lightly armed and often overweight. Like any stupid militia they think they're defending their country. They do seem to have complicit support from the police who let them raid college campuses and beat protesters in the street.
| 68 |
JCM Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:55pm |
re: #44 quickjustice
If the mullahs lose control of all or parts of Tehran for any period of time, the game's afoot. Watch the TV stations and telecommunications centers.
Tehran may happen later, watch Shiraz, Isfahan they'd go before Tehran. The focus of power may be in Tehran. If other towns go over to the revolution, they they have a base to work from against the power in Tehran.
| 69 |
filetandrelease Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:43:00pm |
Today, June 15, 2009, 1 minute ago
iran09: CONFIRMING labnanies forces in shahrak-gharb attacking ppl EVERYWHERE! #iranelection #gr88
Not good.
| 70 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:43:14pm |
It could be the folding metal stock type of AK -- I don't see the wooden stock.
| 71 |
SummerSong Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:43:16pm |
re: #29 mikalm
According to a leftist friend of mine who's watching the Iranian uprising, Americans should have done the same thing during the 2000 and 2004 elections, but we were too busy with "cheeseburgers and American Idol" to do so.
Mmmm, cheeseburgers. ( I missed lunch)
| 72 |
Macker Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:43:28pm |
The Mullahs and their followers have a special place in Hell reserved just for them. Next to Khomeini, Arafat, Hitler, and Mo himself.
| 75 |
brookly red Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:44:45pm |
The mullahs may be miscalculating. Creating martyrs may be their downfall.
| 76 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:45:16pm |
re: #50 quickjustice
If Obama says he doesn't support the demonstrators, it will, indeed, all stop.
No it won't. Remember what happened the last time we got involved in Iranian politics? We toppled their democracy and installed the Shah. Too much of the Iranian public won't trust American support, they still have hard feelings about the last time.
| 77 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:45:22pm |
A quick aside:
Calvin Klein 'Threesome' Ad Draws Oohs, Aahs and Protests
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
I'm outraged or maybe that's horny? Hum not sure but I get this excited feeling?
| 78 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:45:29pm |
re: #58 filetandrelease
According to your check list, if things go well for the revolutionaries, what should happen next?
If - and it's a big "if" - they aren't rolled on by the regular army by dawn, they need to begin forcing the takeover of major governmental targets, as peacefully as possible. They need communications, especially.
They need an ad hoc leadership. This doesn't mean one guy in charge, that means a group, and it has to be people everyone's at least provisionally willing to listen to. And they need those people put up front within the next three days, or they're going to fragment and peter out to nothing.
| 79 |
Pickles Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:45:32pm |
Well this is a scary situation. Perhaps Obama feels that saying nothing is the right approach. I don't know though. It does seem like things are getting out of hand. Very much reminds me of Tianamen square but the security forces in the video don't seem well organized. Could just be the video perspective.
Good video though and good catch.
| 80 |
mikalm Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:46:40pm |
re: #56 Dianna
I have a few of those, too.
Stand ready to rescue her from the consequences of her folly.
She's an (unemployed) comedy writer and sometimes comedienne, who like most of her tribe is essentially an angry and deeply unhappy person. Leftism is perfect for people like this, as it externalizes their own existential misery onto demonized figures in the outside world -- the most popular of which was/is GWB -- and allows them to walllow in perpetual indignation without ever holding themselves responsible for the circumstances of their lives.
| 81 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:47:22pm |
re: #76 Killgore Trout
No it won't. Remember what happened the last time we got involved in Iranian politics? We toppled their democracy and installed the Shah. Too much of the Iranian public won't trust American support, they still have hard feelings about the last time.
Well i"ll say this with complete confidence. I got no idea what's going on over there so I'm gonna sit back and watch. Concerned but just watching right now.
| 82 |
SummerSong Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:47:24pm |
re: #66 EmmmieG
I wish we had a rooster cam in Iran.
I do, too. However, it was so addicting, I was staying up way too late at night just staring at the live feed.
| 83 |
callahan23 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:48:34pm |
Hello Lizardia! Hello my friends 'n buddies!
On Saturday I commented my grave concern for a friend and student of mine.
After all just now I received an email from him out of Teheran that he is ok. He is well aware of the 'actions here and there' yet he promised me that he knows to avoid trouble.
I am so relieved. Something like that in Iran going down goes to a whole new level when someone you know, respect and like is involved.
| 84 |
CaddyMan Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:48:38pm |
Unless there is a strong show of support from the USA (and others in the West) it is doomed for failure. And there appears to be NO support from Obama.
Just like the uprising by the Kurds against Saddam in Iraq, Bay of Pigs and Castro, etc. we leave them hanging in the wind and will result in more consolidated powers by the dicatator(s).
Plus I am not sure this so called "reformer" is exactly that.
Sorry to be a downer.
| 85 |
Last Mohican Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:48:46pm |
re: #75 brookly red
The mullahs may be miscalculating. Creating martyrs may be their downfall.
I don't think they have any other choice. This has gone way beyond the point of just containing the demonstrators, confiscating the TV cameras, and hoping the whole thing will just peter out. If they want to maintain their power and keep Ahmadinejad in power, they'll have to use really ugly, large-scale violence.
The only other option I can think of would be if the mullahs just said they changed their minds, and either allowed a re-do of the election, or just proclaimed Mousavi the winner. Why not? I mean, Mousavi is a genuine, mullah-approved candidate. If they let him be president, they'll still be in power. From their perspective, why not?
| 86 |
ladycatnip Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:48:56pm |
Why is it that Britain gets it and we don't? The Iranian election: Obama's cowardly silence.
They even use the word lily-livered. Gotta love those Brits.
| 87 |
filetandrelease Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:49:04pm |
re: #78 Dianna
So then, this is going to happen fairly quickly one way or the other. At least this initial round if you will.
The world sure could use a break. A major coup at the epi center certainly would qualify.
| 88 |
HelloDare Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:49:20pm |
Why haven't guns fallen into the hands of an underground movement?
This is what the 2nd amendment is all about. The founding fathers knew the dangers of an unarmed citizenry.
| 89 |
Sharmuta Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:49:20pm |
Wow- they were shot at, and still they retaliate. The bravery is very inspiring.
| 90 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:49:32pm |
re: #81 Nevergiveup
That's probably wise. I've been cheering on the protesters but we really don't know what the end result is going to be. They could overthrow the mullahs and install Mousavi as a dictator. We really just don't know.
| 91 |
Sparkizzy Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:49:32pm |
re: callahan23
Glad to hear that your friend is ok
| 93 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:50:24pm |
Meanwhile, back in a America...
As U.S. stock markets plummeted last September, the Senate's No. 2 Democrat, Dick Durbin, sold more than $115,000 worth of stocks and mutual-fund shares and used much of the money to invest in Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc.
The Illinois senator's 2008 financial disclosure statement shows he sold mutual-fund shares worth $42,696 on Sept. 19, the day after then-Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke urged congressional leaders in a closed meeting to craft legislation to help financially troubled banks. The same day, he bought $43,562 worth of Berkshire Hathaway's Class B stock, the disclosure shows.
| 94 |
honestjay Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:50:38pm |
Shall we reserve a resort house for the mullahs in Bermuda?
| 96 |
samsgran1948 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:50:48pm |
re: #36 mich-again
The question is who makes up the Basij. Who could turn a rifle on his own countrymen and shoot to kill at random? My guess is that some if not many are foreign mercenaries. I don't think the Azeri Turk Mullahs could rely on Persian Iranians to kill off their countrymen. But a thug from Gaza or Syria would work just fine for that purpose.
Mich-again: The Basiji isn't made up of foreign mercenaries; they are home-grown assholes on a mission -- destroy anyone whose beliefs are a shade different than their own. They are thugs, plain and simple, and they don't care who they beat up on or kill. Look around your own community. Are there individuals who would kill their own mothers on a whim? Those are the Basiji: Home grown thugs paid, supported and protected by the Iranian government. A'jad and the mullahs frequently use them to put down student unrest.
| 98 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:51:15pm |
re: #90 Killgore Trout
That's probably wise. I've been cheering on the protesters but we really don't know what the end result is going to be. They could overthrow the mullahs and install Mousavi as a dictator. We really just don't know.
Well not only don't I know, but all to often today I find myself agreeing with you and that concerns me?
/
| 99 |
JCM Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:51:25pm |
re: #70 Charles
It could be the folding metal stock type of AK -- I don't see the wooden stock.
There's a lot of AK variants, with out a real good image, AK-47 is good enough.
| 101 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:51:49pm |
re: #98 Nevergiveup
A lot of people seem to find it painful.
;)
| 102 |
bbcrackmonkey Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:51:56pm |
The more people they kill the harder it will get for authorities.
Shias love martyrs. The funerals will become flashpoints for more protests, turning the whole mess into a feedback loop.
Right now Rafsanjani is working behind the scenes to try and remove Khameini from power.
| 103 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:52:27pm |
re: #84 CaddyMan
Unless there is a strong show of support from the USA (and others in the West) it is doomed for failure. And there appears to be NO support from Obama.
Just like the uprising by the Kurds against Saddam in Iraq, Bay of Pigs and Castro, etc. we leave them hanging in the wind and will result in more consolidated powers by the dicatator(s).
Plus I am not sure this so called "reformer" is exactly that.
Sorry to be a downer.
I don't agree. This isn't an incursion or an isolated rebellion. This is an uprising well spread around a country with varied terrain, limited roads, and with some interesting communication and political issues.
It's not a dead cert for either side. Not yet.
| 104 |
Jewels (AKA Julian) Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:52:28pm |
re: #85 Last Mohican
I think it'sa miscalculation on the Mullahs part at this point. And they are not used to this level of resistance from thier own people. Plus the bay for Mullha blood now starting to pop up on the streets. even the IRG has declared neutrality on this one
| 105 |
Sharmuta Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:52:37pm |
re: #42 reine.de.tout
Some of the tweets have suggested there are some Lebanese that have been brought in.
Hizbullah
| 106 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:52:44pm |
re: #101 Killgore Trout
A lot of people seem to find it painful.
;)
Well on this topic, but lets not get to carried away!
| 107 |
KenJen Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:52:52pm |
re: #93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Meanwhile, back in a America...
What? An Illinois Senator ..insider trading..no way./
| 108 |
JCM Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:52:58pm |
l re: #88 HelloDare
Why haven't guns fallen into the hands of an underground movement?
This is what the 2nd amendment is all about. The founding fathers knew the dangers of an unarmed citizenry.
Some will be a few at first then more and more.
Thugs ban private ownership weapons for a reason.
| 109 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:53:20pm |
re: #85 Last Mohican
I don't think they have any other choice. This has gone way beyond the point of just containing the demonstrators, confiscating the TV cameras, and hoping the whole thing will just peter out. If they want to maintain their power and keep Ahmadinejad in power, they'll have to use really ugly, large-scale violence.
The only other option I can think of would be if the mullahs just said they changed their minds, and either allowed a re-do of the election, or just proclaimed Mousavi the winner. Why not? I mean, Mousavi is a genuine, mullah-approved candidate. If they let him be president, they'll still be in power. From their perspective, why not?
Because they've already screwed that pooch.
| 110 |
twincitiesgirl Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:53:30pm |
My heart goes out to those brave protesters caught in that 7th century hell hole.
| 111 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:53:52pm |
re: #76 Killgore Trout
Spouting off the commie line, eh, Kilgore? Tudeh was a Soviet front organization, and everyone in Iran knew it. CIA helped the Shah regain power, ending Soviet ambitions in Iran for a decade.
Remember the Cold War? Iran was a pawn for a long time, with repeated Soviet efforts at a takeover, including Stalin's invasion in 1946. Harry Truman put an end to that. Any opinions on Truman, Kilgore?
| 112 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:54:21pm |
re: #87 filetandrelease
So then, this is going to happen fairly quickly one way or the other. At least this initial round if you will.
The world sure could use a break. A major coup at the epi center certainly would qualify.
We could.
BTW, read what TFK's putting up. If the Army sticks with the regime, he's got some very practical suggestions.
| 113 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:54:25pm |
re: #106 Nevergiveup
Well on this topic, but lets not get to carried away!
One small step for Kilgore ,,,, one Giant leap for LGF !
//
| 115 |
gander Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:54:41pm |
To gain freedom, they must throw off the mullahs.
To throw off the mullahs, they must throw off ....
| 116 |
brookly red Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:54:58pm |
re: #85 Last Mohican
I don't think they have any other choice. This has gone way beyond the point of just containing the demonstrators, confiscating the TV cameras, and hoping the whole thing will just peter out. If they want to maintain their power and keep Ahmadinejad in power, they'll have to use really ugly, large-scale violence.
The only other option I can think of would be if the mullahs just said they changed their minds, and either allowed a re-do of the election, or just proclaimed Mousavi the winner. Why not? I mean, Mousavi is a genuine, mullah-approved candidate. If they let him be president, they'll still be in power. From their perspective, why not?
For better or worse people will put up with a beating but once you have a martyr all bets are off... I think it was a bad move.
| 117 |
Robert O. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:55:17pm |
Check out this page by Andrew Sullivan over at The Atlantic, with a cover page photo of a person (university student?) shot, presumably he looks dead:
| 118 |
BlueCanuck Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:55:21pm |
Is twitter down now? My live twitter feed from Sky News stopped about 14 minutes ago.
| 119 |
Bob Dillon Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:55:45pm |
re: #14 FurryOldGuyJeans
Carter allowed the Shah into the US, so maybe O can do the same if the Mullahs get tossed.
/ fine tactical move there.
IIRC Carter refused the Shah into the US.
| 120 |
JCM Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:55:49pm |
re: #84 CaddyMan
Unless there is a strong show of support from the USA (and others in the West) it is doomed for failure. And there appears to be NO support from Obama.
Just like the uprising by the Kurds against Saddam in Iraq, Bay of Pigs and Castro, etc. we leave them hanging in the wind and will result in more consolidated powers by the dicatator(s).
Plus I am not sure this so called "reformer" is exactly that.
Sorry to be a downer.
You've got 30 years of pent up frustration in a young population with limited options for the future.
My worry is should the Mullahs attend a necktie party, the new bunch will remember who supported them.
And who did not.
| 121 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:56:35pm |
Hey old mullah,
What are ya fullah?
How's about shittin' someone else, today?
Hey, mean mullah,
Couldn't you pullah
Better president out of your ass, okay?
| 122 |
Scorch Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:56:42pm |
re: #67 Killgore Trout
I think a militia over there could be described as ones own private army. Do not believe they should even be called such which throws them into the same category as our own Continental militia in the 1700's.
| 123 |
Last Mohican Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:57:28pm |
re: #109 Dianna
Because they've already screwed that pooch.
You mean by proclaiming Ahmadinejad as the winner, so that they'd look weak if they wavered on that now?
Maybe. But I'd say if they made a quick statement about "some new information that has come to light," they could save face and stay in control. Actually, these being the vicious thugs that they are, their easiest out now might be to actually assassinate Ahmadinejad, claim that the rebels did it, and hold a new election.
| 124 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:57:44pm |
re: #119 Bobibutu
IIRC Carter refused the Shah into the US.
Not sure about that. I thought he did for medical treatment at first and then the shit hit the fan and the Shah "voluntarily" flew to Mexico I think it was before he went to Egypt to die?
| 125 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:58:23pm |
My daughter just stole the National Review that just arrived. How's that for filial gratitude for you?
| 126 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:58:40pm |
re: #76 Killgore Trout
Killgore, you are utterly ignorant of the history of Iran in the 20th Century. The U.S. has rescued the Iranian nation from Soviet ambitions repeatedly. We've shown ourselves friends of the Iranian people, and they know it.
| 127 |
ladycatnip Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:00:01pm |
#93 FBV
I read the same article this morning and almost had to reach for the b/p meds.
Un-flippin believable! Where's the guy who put Martha behind bars for a piddly $45K? Durbin needs to resign, but the actual scenario will be The One telling the media to back off! He'll protect his own corrupt cronies like he did with his attempt to illegally fire inspector general Gerald Walpin.
| 128 |
VegasRick Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:00:05pm |
re: #126 quickjustice
Killgore, you are utterly ignorant of the history of Iran in the 20th Century. The U.S. has rescued the Iranian nation from Soviet ambitions repeatedly. We've shown ourselves friends of the Iranian people, and they know it.
Zero needs to step up right now, but he won't.
| 129 |
JCM Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:00:08pm |
re: #124 Nevergiveup
Not sure about that. I thought he did for medical treatment at first and then the shit hit the fan and the Shah "voluntarily" flew to Mexico I think it was before he went to Egypt to die?
The Shah was allowed into the US in Oct, '79 for treatment IIRC.
| 130 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:00:43pm |
re: #126 quickjustice
Killgore, you are utterly ignorant of the history of Iran in the 20th Century. The U.S. has rescued the Iranian nation from Soviet ambitions repeatedly. We've shown ourselves friends of the Iranian people, and they know it.
Heh.
| 131 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:01:06pm |
re: #126 quickjustice
Killgore, you are utterly ignorant of the history of Iran in the 20th Century. The U.S. has rescued the Iranian nation from Soviet ambitions repeatedly. We've shown ourselves friends of the Iranian people, and they know it.
I think it's alittle more complicated than that. Yes we made dam sure the Commies did not take over, but our blanket support for the Shah and his brutal tactics did come back to haunt us. And nobodies hands are clean here including their great Ayatollah.
| 132 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:01:12pm |
re: #126 quickjustice
Killgore, you are utterly ignorant of the history of Iran in the 20th Century. The U.S. has rescued the Iranian nation from Soviet ambitions repeatedly. We've shown ourselves friends of the Iranian people, and they know it.
Maybe, but if so they sure have a funny way of showing it!
With friends like them, who needs enemies?
| 133 |
Macker Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:01:29pm |
re: #119 Bobibutu
IIRC Carter refused the Shah into the US.
Actually, we DID let him in so that he could go to the Mayo Clinic for cancer treatment. And of course the Islamofascists were pissed off to no end.
| 134 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:01:37pm |
re: #126 quickjustice
Could you have made your point without the pejorative?
Am I getting silly, or are people getting meaner to each other here?
Oh, Lord. Kum ba yah....
| 135 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:02:04pm |
re: #119 Bobibutu
Diagnosed with cancer, the Shah was secretly admitted to the U.S. for humanitarian medical treatment. He was secretly treated both at New York Hospital and Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in NYC, because Carter feared enraging the mullahs. I have friends who saw him being taken back and forth between the two hospitals in the secret tunnels below the streets of NYC.
| 136 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:02:25pm |
re: #129 JCM
The Shah was allowed into the US in Oct, '79 for treatment IIRC.
I was pretty sure he was. That was their "excuses" for taking over our Embassy. Or at least one of them.
| 137 |
Bob Dillon Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:02:31pm |
re: #124 Nevergiveup
Not sure about that. I thought he did for medical treatment at first and then the shit hit the fan and the Shah "voluntarily" flew to Mexico I think it was before he went to Egypt to die?
Yes he waffled back and forth - the Shah never did get into the US for treatment.
The Shah and Carter had no love lost from the time JC tried to shake him down and the Shah told him to pound sand.
| 138 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:02:47pm |
re: #123 Last Mohican
You mean by proclaiming Ahmadinejad as the winner, so that they'd look weak if they wavered on that now?
Maybe. But I'd say if they made a quick statement about "some new information that has come to light," they could save face and stay in control. Actually, these being the vicious thugs that they are, their easiest out now might be to actually assassinate Ahmadinejad, claim that the rebels did it, and hold a new election.
Too late - once they started making announcements about "iron fists" and sending out the riot police in company with the street-thugs, they were facing trouble. Once they killed a few people, but the protesters managed to burn down the thugs' headquarters building in retaliation, the mullahs were very, very screwed.
There's nothing worse than a botched repression.
They have to manage a really intimidating, bloody one now to hang on. I'd suggest in a provincial city, well-covered, so parents see what can happen to their children. Plus lots of public and ugly reprisals to make it all stick.
Someone who knows more about Iranian internal politics than I do can tell if they have the organized and disciplined forces of coercion (read: regular army) under enough control to do that.
| 139 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:02:52pm |
re: #52 Dianna
Wrong time and place. They'd be more likely to harm their own cause than help topple the regime.
Things like disabling militia vehicles.... targeting the militia vs the police or uniformed units might not be a bad idea.
| 140 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:02:54pm |
re: #134 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Could you have made your point without the pejorative?
Am I getting silly, or are people getting meaner to each other here?
Oh, Lord. Kum ba yah....
It's the red meat, asshole. ;D
| 141 |
transient Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:03:00pm |
re: #78 Dianna
They need an ad hoc leadership. This doesn't mean one guy in charge, that means a group, and it has to be people everyone's at least provisionally willing to listen to. And they need those people put up front within the next three days, or they're going to fragment and peter out to nothing.
I have to say I am impressed by the numbers of people showing up for these demonstrations. I agree that if this is going to go somewhere, they will need some leadership. The problem is, what are their goals, and is there widespread agreement with those goals? This is a popular protest, not an organization, so it's hard to know how far they will agree with each other.
Do they merely want the voting irregularities checked?
Do they want Mousavi to take power? (If they are willing to settle for this, they are likely to be disappointed in how far Iran will move to the West).
Are they willing to fight to kick out the theocracy and replace it with a democracy? Are most of the demonstrators willing to follow through with the sweat, blood, and tears that may be entailed in wrenching the talons of an entrenched dictatorship from its grip on power?
/ I hope so...waiting & watching...
A Cynical Optimist.
| 142 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:03:06pm |
re: #132 Spare O'Lake
Maybe, but if so they sure have a funny way of showing it!
With friends like them, who needs enemies?
Some people find it better to be anti-Obama than factually correct.
| 143 |
VegasRick Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:03:10pm |
re: #133 Macker
Actually, we DID let him in so that he could go to the Mayo Clinic for cancer treatment. And of course the Islamofascists were pissed off to no end.
Why should that day be any different than all the rest?
/
| 144 |
mikalm Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:03:13pm |
re: #122 Scorch
I think a militia over there could be described as ones own private army. Do not believe they should even be called such which throws them into the same category as our own Continental militia in the 1700's.
Once more: a true militia is an armed body called up from the citizenry, and headed by an elected civilian official. Without civilian leadership and authority it's a goon squad, or a gang..
| 145 |
Wise Man Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:03:26pm |
This could be the beginning of the end. If the Mullahs don't back down, they will face a full-scale revolt, and even if they exterminate the Opposition they will be faced with months of guerrilla warfare and then treason from elements of their own ranks. If they act more cautiously and annul the election - they will quickly be faced with Gorbachev a la Iran. Lose-lose.
The implications for the entire region are astounding. Obama will have no more counter-balances in the Region to deal with. Israel will no longer be facing a vice of two powerful Iranian-supported military threats.
And even if not now, then in a year or two...
Lo Yanum v'lo yishan Shomer Yisrael.
| 146 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:03:38pm |
re: #126 quickjustice
Killgore, you are utterly ignorant of the history of Iran in the 20th Century. The U.S. has rescued the Iranian nation from Soviet ambitions repeatedly. We've shown ourselves friends of the Iranian people, and they know it.
HOLD THE WEDDIN. The Iaranian GOV'T has had close ties with the old USSR and now with Russia for a couple of decades. Economic ties as well as military hardware and training. True, the Iranian "man on the street" may have more affinity for all things western, but ya gotta go with who's buttering your bread.
| 148 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:04:03pm |
re: #137 Bobibutu
Yes he waffled back and forth - the Shah never did get into the US for treatment.
The Shah and Carter had no love lost from the time JC tried to shake him down and the Shah told him to pound sand.
Sorry I think your wrong
| 149 |
Gearhead Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:04:10pm |
This is the regime you've been coddling, world.
Time for the excuses to stop and for the Mullahs to leave.
| 150 |
Bob Dillon Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:04:17pm |
re: #137 Bobibutu
Yes he waffled back and forth - the Shah never did get into the US for treatment.
The Shah and Carter had no love lost from the time JC tried to shake him down and the Shah told him to pound sand.
OK He did! Thanks for the correction.
| 151 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:04:34pm |
Whenever it says "The US this..." or "The US that..." it should say "The US government" or "The US State Department."
The US, as in all 300 million of us, are either totally not paying attention (majority) or either wishing we could help them, and being embarrassed by our leaders.
| 152 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:04:36pm |
| 153 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:04:36pm |
re: #142 Killgore Trout
Some people find it better to be anti-Obama than factually correct.
And some people wouldn't criticize Obama if he stomped on their fingers while they were hanging from a cliff.
| 154 |
That's Mr. president to you Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:04:39pm |
Just want everyone here to know that, once again, my administration is taking bold steps to be as assertively complacent as possible.
Clearly, the American people want what is best for the Iranian people and want a peaceful middle east. While my predecessor was willing to take risks and suffer unknown consequences for taking bold actions in support of democracy, my policy is simple: take no risks and use bold language that, when parsed, yields no commitments whatsoever.
And that sums up my commitment to the American people.
| 155 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:05:20pm |
re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Hold the weddin'?
Really?
Hahahahaha!
you've never read a Kinky Freidman book ?
| 156 |
Macker Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:05:51pm |
re: #155 sattv4u2
you've never read a Kinky Freidman book ?
Didn't he recently run for Governor of Texas?
| 157 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:05:56pm |
re: #155 sattv4u2
Read some of his stuff... just hit me funny, I guess.
| 158 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:06:00pm |
re: #129 JCM
The Shah was allowed into the US in Oct, '79 for treatment IIRC.
Which led to the seizing of the US Embassy.
| 159 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:06:10pm |
re: #139 Wendya
Things like disabling militia vehicles.... targeting the militia vs the police or uniformed units might not be a bad idea.
Using what TFK's suggesting, you mean, if it goes that far? Sure.
But...I don't know if they're going to need to, yet. Though someone should forward TFK's plans to them. He's got the right idea, if it comes to something more prolonged.
| 160 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:06:15pm |
| 161 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:06:19pm |
re: #153 capitalist piglet
And some people wouldn't criticize Obama if he stomped on their fingers while they were hanging from a cliff.
Well some people aught to know better than go cliff climbing with someone they don't trust? Just saying.
| 162 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:06:28pm |
re: #154 That's Mr. president to you
I never know which way to ding those...but they're so dang clever.
| 163 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:06:34pm |
| 164 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:06:40pm |
re: #131 Nevergiveup
You're repeating Jimmy Carter's excuse for abandoning the Shah. SAVIK was brutal, no doubt, but the mullahs have been far worse.
As for you, Killgore, have you no decency, sir? I knew one of the CIA operatives, now dead, who pulled off the removal of Tudeh. You think a Soviet puppet regime would have been better for the Iranian people?
| 166 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:07:23pm |
| 167 |
VegasRick Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:07:34pm |
re: #147 Macker
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot....
"the Islamofascists were pissed off to no end".
Twas a joke. Aren't they always?
| 168 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:07:55pm |
re: #157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Read some of his stuff... just hit me funny, I guess.
he used that phrase often in the books,,, it stuck with me.
| 169 |
callahan23 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:07:57pm |
re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I never know which way to ding those...but they're so dang clever.
Up is the way to go here, IMHO.
Great sarcasm.
| 170 |
Robert O. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:08:01pm |
I don't know why some people are having a go at Killgore Trout. Some of the comments at LGF wondered why Obama didn't declare full support for the opposition. #76 sounds pretty reasonable to me.
I don't like the Holocaust-denying, Homosexual-denying Adolfdinejad one bit. But the fact is, even if the vote was rigged (I am very confident that some rigging took place), the ultra-conservatives in Iran are still a very large force to be reckoned with. Any western attempt to back the opposition is going to be used by the clericals as ammunition that reformers are stooges of the west, and will backfire big time. People must have forgotten how well the Guardian's attempt to influence the US elections in 2004 went. The truth is, nobody likes it when a foreign country tries to meddle with the domestic affairs of another country. Obama is doing the only thing he could: play gently, using carefully couched words so that he will not be seen as meddling in Iranian affairs.
| 171 |
winston06 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:08:13pm |
I posted it on my blog too
[Link: thespiritofman.blogspot.com...]
| 173 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:08:36pm |
re: #164 quickjustice
You're repeating Jimmy Carter's excuse for abandoning the Shah. SAVIK was brutal, no doubt, but the mullahs have been far worse.
As for you, Killgore, have you no decency, sir? I knew one of the CIA operatives, now dead, who pulled off the removal of Tudeh. You think a Soviet puppet regime would have been better for the Iranian people?
I am not repeating Carter's excuse and I am not saying I would have withdrawn support for the Shah, but history is history.
| 174 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:08:54pm |
re: #165 taxfreekiller
How many regimes have you toppled? You sound like you know what you are talking about.
| 175 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:09:20pm |
re: #141 transient
I don't think they know what they want, or where they're going, yet.
I think - but this is just my opinion - that Mousavi is irrelevant. He may get propped up as a figurehead, but given the idiocies he's managed to spout in the last twelve hours, I think he's going to be discarded.
It will depend on what some small, committed group of folks have been thinking for the last five years. When they start emerging, we'll have more of an idea of where this is headed.
Presently? It's a bunch of bread riots.
| 177 |
lanaty Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:09:37pm |
Hi all. Charles, good job as usual.
My parents were born in Iran and they're literally in tears at this point (all our family is in Iran, mostly in Tehran). My dad just received an email that says that a large group of Univ of Tehran professors resigned after last night's Basiji raid in the dorms, where 5 students were killed. I can't find anything online right now to substantiate this, but will keep looking and re-post when I have more info.
| 178 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:09:59pm |
re: #170 Robert O.
Killgore thinks the Eisenhower Administration should have permitted a Soviet takeover of Iran.
| 179 |
Pvt Bin Jammin Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:10:09pm |
I'm supposed to be working but here are some new flicker photos:
[Link: www.flickr.com...]
| 181 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:10:31pm |
re: #159 Dianna
Using what TFK's suggesting, you mean, if it goes that far? Sure.
But...I don't know if they're going to need to, yet. Though someone should forward TFK's plans to them. He's got the right idea, if it comes to something more prolonged.
Well, I would propose initially targeting the militia thugs so it isn't obvious they're going after the "state". The government's response to that would dictate future actions.
| 182 |
zombie Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:10:34pm |
re: #44 quickjustice
If the mullahs lose control of all or parts of Tehran for any period of time, the game's afoot. Watch the TV stations and telecommunications centers.
That's what really needs to happen. Start to win the propaganda war. Take over a TVG station, and a radio station. Broadcast what's really going on.
Suggestion: There are Iranian "government in exile" groups in France and the US. Obama should C130-them to Basra, armed them to the hilt, and use SEAL teams to "inject" them across the border into Iran. Let the counter-revolution start in earnest. A little chaso coming in from the Iraq border will cause major headaches for the government, and help to overload the system and cause a breakdown.
| 183 |
Diamond Bullet Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:10:40pm |
Buzzing NYC with giant, low-flying jumbo jets: $328,835.
Electricity to power teleprompter for even a tepid statement generally supporting democracy: $1.46.
Missing a once-in-a-generation opportunity to encourage Change in one of the most repressive places on Earth: Priceless.
| 184 |
That's Mr. President to you Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:10:44pm |
Let me put it another way -
"All your Soft Power are belong to me."
| 185 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:10:48pm |
Three Iranians are posting on LGF? Wow.
| 186 |
Desert Dog Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:09pm |
re: #175 Dianna
I don't think they know what they want, or where they're going, yet.
I think - but this is just my opinion - that Mousavi is irrelevant. He may get propped up as a figurehead, but given the idiocies he's managed to spout in the last twelve hours, I think he's going to be discarded.
It will depend on what some small, committed group of folks have been thinking for the last five years. When they start emerging, we'll have more of an idea of where this is headed.
Presently? It's a bunch of bread riots.
No way to tell now if this will continue or get stomped down by the government. I just hope it ends with the mullahs swinging from a tree.....the world would be instantly better
| 187 |
Sparkizzy Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:14pm |
re: Diamond Bullet
Buzzing NYC with giant, low-flying jumbo jets: $328,835.
Electricity to power teleprompter for even a tepid statement generally supporting democracy: $1.46.
Missing a once-in-a-generation opportunity to encourage Change in one of the most repressive places on Earth: Priceless.
Nice
| 188 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:15pm |
StopAhmadi:
I need some ppl that know about Twitter and internet security to contact me.
Hope somebody gets in touch with him
| 189 |
VegasRick Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:19pm |
| 190 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:19pm |
Congress Weighs Expanding Hate Crimes Law as Museum Shooting Suspect Waits to Hear of More Charges
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
Boy I'm against this. A crime is a crime. Starting to call some things
"hate" crimes and others not is so subjective.
| 191 |
zombie Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:37pm |
re: #182 zombie
Ignore the typos. I pressed "post" instead of "preview."
| 192 |
Scorch Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:45pm |
re: #136 Nevergiveup
I was pretty sure he was. That was their "excuses" for taking over our Embassy. Or at least one of them.
Do you think it was that little short guy with big ears and a beard?
| 193 |
Fenway_Nation Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:52pm |
Looks like the persianprotestbabes.com domain name is still up for grabs.
/Just sayin'.
| 194 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:12:09pm |
re: #177 lanaty
Hi all. Charles, good job as usual.
My parents were born in Iran and they're literally in tears at this point (all our family is in Iran, mostly in Tehran). My dad just received an email that says that a large group of Univ of Tehran professors resigned after last night's Basiji raid in the dorms, where 5 students were killed. I can't find anything online right now to substantiate this, but will keep looking and re-post when I have more info.
I saw a "tweet" about this last night or early this morning.
100 or so resigned, it said.
| 195 |
Racer X Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:12:32pm |
re: #194 reine.de.tout
I saw a "tweet" about this last night or early this morning.
100 or so resigned, it said.
Wow!
| 196 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:12:37pm |
re: #182 zombie
That's the reverse of what the Iranian Revolutionary Guards were doing to our military. It'd be poetic justice, but it'll never happen.
| 197 |
albusteve Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:12:48pm |
re: #190 Nevergiveup
Congress Weighs Expanding Hate Crimes Law as Museum Shooting Suspect Waits to Hear of More Charges
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
Boy I'm against this. A crime is a crime. Starting to call some things
"hate" crimes and others not is so subjective.
what utter bullshit....these people embarrass themselves
| 198 |
SummerSong Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:12:54pm |
I could have sworn another thread went up -something about a cartoon?
| 199 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:12:55pm |
re: #177 lanaty
Hi all. Charles, good job as usual.
My parents were born in Iran and they're literally in tears at this point (all our family is in Iran, mostly in Tehran). My dad just received an email that says that a large group of Univ of Tehran professors resigned after last night's Basiji raid in the dorms, where 5 students were killed. I can't find anything online right now to substantiate this, but will keep looking and re-post when I have more info.
And this from Iran09 twitter:
CONFIRMING 10~15 dead at dorms last night! Floors are covered w/ blood! #iranelection #gr88
| 200 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:13:09pm |
re: #156 Macker
Didn't he recently run for Governor of Texas?
finished 4th with about 12 % of the vote
Not too shanbby for an independent singer/ author/ Jewish cowboy (self described)
| 201 |
Desert Dog Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:13:13pm |
re: #182 zombie
That's what really needs to happen. Start to win the propaganda war. Take over a TVG station, and a radio station. Broadcast what's really going on.
Suggestion: There are Iranian "government in exile" groups in France and the US. Obama should C130-them to Basra, armed them to the hilt, and use SEAL teams to "inject" them across the border into Iran. Let the counter-revolution start in earnest. A little chaso coming in from the Iraq border will cause major headaches for the government, and help to overload the system and cause a breakdown.
With Obama as CIC? That is not going to happen. Bush might have done that sort of thing, but not our current President. I think we have to be careful here and not get too involved. BUT, I think Obama should at least say something to these people.....if he does not, it basically says he wants the Status Quo to continue and that is pathetic.
| 202 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:13:14pm |
| 203 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:13:35pm |
re: #174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I think we should collect his advice and send it to the Iranian demonstrators.
| 204 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:13:37pm |
re: #118 BlueCanuck
Is twitter down now? My live twitter feed from Sky News stopped about 14 minutes ago.
I don't know if it's down now, but Twitter says they're going offline tonight for an hour for maintenance! Talk about bad timing....
# Maintenance window tonight, 9:45p Pacific [Link: tinyurl.com...] 1 hour ago from twitterfeed
[Link: twitter.com...]
Maintenance window tonight, 9:45p Pacific 1 hour agoWe will have 90 minutes of maintenance starting tonight at 9:45p Pacific. Critical network upgrades will be performed during this time.
Update (2:03p): Unfortunately the timing of this maintenance period is not within our control as our provider needs to perform these network upgrades. We apologize for the outage and hope to be back from the maintenance as quickly as our host can perform the work.
[Link: status.twitter.com...]
| 206 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:13:50pm |
re: #192 Scorch
Do you think it was that little short guy with big ears and a beard?
Seems to be some evidence that he was. I think it is still an open question, but honestly even if he wasn't, it doesn't exactly make him a nice guy?
| 207 |
Egregious Philbin Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:14:00pm |
Its time for a Ceaucescau moment.
Merry F*ing Christmas Mahmoud
| 208 |
Lynn B. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:14:10pm |
re: #96 samsgran1948
Mich-again: The Basiji isn't made up of foreign mercenaries; they are home-grown assholes on a mission -- destroy anyone whose beliefs are a shade different than their own. They are thugs, plain and simple, and they don't care who they beat up on or kill. Look around your own community. Are there individuals who would kill their own mothers on a whim? Those are the Basiji: Home grown thugs paid, supported and protected by the Iranian government. A'jad and the mullahs frequently use them to put down student unrest.
Yes, and they were specifically recruited for exactly that purpose. I posted this link a day or two ago.
In August 1994, some Pasdaran units, rushed to quell riots in the city of Ghazvin, 150 km. west of Tehran, reportedly refused orders from the Interior Minister to intervene in the clashes, which left more than 30 people dead, 400 wounded and over 1,000 arrested.
Subsequently, senior officers in the army, air force and the usually loyal Islamic Revolutionary Guard reportedly stated that they would no longer order their troops into battle to quell civil disorder. A Pasdaran commander was among four senior army officers who are said to have sent a letter to the country's political leadership, warning the clerical rulers against "using the armed forces to crush civilian unrest and internal conflicts." In a communiqué sent to Ayatollah Ali Khameini, stated that "the role of the country’s armed forces is to defend its borders and to repel foreign enemies from its soil, not to control the internal situation or to strengthen one political faction above another." They are said to have then recommended the use of Baseej volunteers for this purpose. In a move believed to indicate a shift in the trust of the ruling clerics from the Pasdaran to the Baseej volunteer force, on 17 April 1995 Ayatollah Ali Khameini reportedly promoted a civilian, veterinary surgeon Hassan Firuzabadi, to the rank of full general, placing him above both Brigadier-General Mohsen Rezai, commander-in-chief of the Pasdaran and Brigadier General Ali Shahbazi of the regular armed forces.
| 209 |
albusteve Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:14:18pm |
| 210 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:14:18pm |
I'll repeat what I've said on other threads: the Iranian people are a gentle and brilliant nation. Their current government is a religious tyranny. I am rooting for the Iranian people against their government all the way!
| 211 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:14:51pm |
re: #181 Wendya
Well, I would propose initially targeting the militia thugs so it isn't obvious they're going after the "state". The government's response to that would dictate future actions.
Too late for that.
The State actors already tied themselves to the militia thugs. And the demonstrators burned their headquarters.
That line has been drawn.
| 212 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:15:05pm |
re: #204 iceweasel
[Link: status.twitter.com...]
One of the Iran twitterers said he was going to contact Twitter and ask them to delay the maintenance.
I think I had it in previous thread.
| 213 |
Desert Dog Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:15:09pm |
re: #209 albusteve
and you stink...a twofer!
And, his Mommy dresses him funny...but, alas, that is not the point either.
| 214 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:15:09pm |
re: #193 Fenway_Nation
Looks like the persianprotestbabes.com domain name is still up for grabs.
/Just sayin'.
There are a lot to choose from. The Iranian women are amazingly brave and often quite beautiful.
| 215 |
Macker Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:15:16pm |
re: #207 Egregious Philbin
Its time for a Ceaucescau moment.
Merry F*ing Christmas Mahmoud
10,000 updings!
| 216 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:15:33pm |
re: #164 quickjustice
You're repeating Jimmy Carter's excuse for abandoning the Shah. SAVIK was brutal, no doubt, but the mullahs have been far worse.
As for you, Killgore, have you no decency, sir? I knew one of the CIA operatives, now dead, who pulled off the removal of Tudeh. You think a Soviet puppet regime would have been better for the Iranian people?
Too bad you didn't ask your dead freind about the decades long relationship between the Old Soviet Union as well as present day Russia and Iran as stated in post #146
| 217 |
Nevergiveup Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:16:40pm |
re: #216 sattv4u2
Too bad you didn't ask your dead freind about the decades long relationship between the Old Soviet Union as well as present day Russia and Iran as stated in post #146
Ya mean like that Nuclear Reactor that somebody aught to make go boom?
| 218 |
zombie Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:16:52pm |
re: #164 quickjustice
You're repeating Jimmy Carter's excuse for abandoning the Shah. SAVIK was brutal, no doubt, but the mullahs have been far worse.
As for you, Killgore, have you no decency, sir? I knew one of the CIA operatives, now dead, who pulled off the removal of Tudeh. You think a Soviet puppet regime would have been better for the Iranian people?
I think you all might be interested in the latest post at zomblog:
| 219 |
JCM Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:16:58pm |
re: #136 Nevergiveup
I was pretty sure he was. That was their "excuses" for taking over our Embassy. Or at least one of them.
My best friend in Tehran in '76 his dad worked for AFRTS, or that was his cover. We later found out he was the Station Chief. Years later when he was retired, he said a lot of the agitation and especially toward the embassy was done by Bulgarians covered as European exchange students.
Since Peter the Great the Russians had eyes looking south.
| 220 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:17:14pm |
Persian babe kicks ass....
| 222 |
eon Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:17:38pm |
re: #93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Meanwhile, back in a America...
Gee, couldn't that be defined as "insider trading"?
Oh, right. I'm sure Congress carefully rendered themselves immune to that law, too.
cheers
eon
| 223 |
Robert O. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:18:05pm |
re: #178 quickjustice
That's not what he said at all. He simply stated the CIA helped install the Shah in 1953. It is, of course, fine to debate whether this was necessary in the context of stopping an aggressive Soviet Empire in the Cold War - I know full well what Communism means. But that still doesn't detract the fact Iranians are going to be suspicious of western involvement, so any attempt on our part to influence the results won't go down well.
The Iranians will have to overthrow theocracy on their own effort like the Eastern Europeans did. The best that the west could supply them is information and moral support as in the Cold War, but direct involvement is probably out of question.
| 224 |
pink freud Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:18:36pm |
re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I never know which way to ding those...but they're so dang clever.
If you watch the dings on them, the newbie libs never upding them.
/a little too close to the bone, me thinks
| 225 |
buster Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:18:45pm |
re: #103 Dianna
I don't agree. This isn't an incursion or an isolated rebellion. This is an uprising well spread around a country with varied terrain, limited roads, and with some interesting communication and political issues.
It's not a dead cert for either side. Not yet.
The seed has been planted in Iraq and in Lebanon. Democracy in the middle east is indeed possible. The message is not lost on the young in Iran who can see what is going on in the rest of the world, no matter what the Mullahs want them to see. If this movement does indeed prove to have legs, the fact that it is homegrown will give it even more credibility.
| 226 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:18:52pm |
re: #216 sattv4u2
You know the bright line is 1979, when the pro-American Shah was overthrown, with Jimmy Carter's acquiescence, by supporters of the current regime. Prior to 1979, the Iranian government and nation was pro-American. After 1979, things changed to anti-American.
I don't hate a people because of their heinous government. Do you?
| 227 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:19:49pm |
It's a sad day when the greatest power in the world withholds criticism of a brutal, tyrannical and illegitimate regime for fear of upsetting its rulers.
[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]
-Ouch!
| 228 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:20:00pm |
Persian babe can take a punch.....
| 229 |
Sharmuta Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:20:01pm |
re: #220 Killgore Trout
God love her. They're as gutsy as the men.
| 230 |
Fenway_Nation Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:20:26pm |
Again, I'm late to the thread, but I have a modest proposal-
I'm sure even 6 years later, there's an abundance of small arms laying and munitions around in Iraq that would be easy to lose, difficult to trace and impossible to prove they had Uncle Sam's fingerprints on them.
I'm also reasonably certain that any Kurd worth their salt in Northewestern Iraq knows of some good smuggling routes.
Now I'm not saying you put the two together.....I'm just sayin'...
| 231 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:21:11pm |
re: #42 reine.de.tout
Some of the tweets have suggested there are some Lebanese that have been brought in.
Reine-- the live blogging at the HuffPo was talking about rumours of Hezbollah last night; they said this:
12:38 AM ET -- The Hezbollah rumors. I've seen several comments like this one, from reader Reza: "I was just talking to my aunt and uncle in Tehran. They told me that the news on the street is that the 'police' who are actually beating up the Iranian people are the Lebanese Hizbollah. Iranians are beating them back and are actually telling those Arabs off."
I've seen no evidence that this is the case (such evidence, admittedly, would be hard to obtain). But it is worth noting that it would not be unprecedented. As one informed Iranian-American noted to me, Hezbollah forces from Lebanon were brought into Iran in 2004 when there was great concern about violence on the 5th anniversary of the notorious student protests of 1999 -- much the same way China had to bring in troops from outside Beijing to put down activists at Tiananmen square.
| 232 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:21:16pm |
re: #219 JCM
"From Russia With Love", the James Bond thriller, much of which was filmed in Istanbul. The Bulgarians did the dirty work for the Russians in the motion picture as well.
| 233 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:21:32pm |
re: #228 Killgore Trout
Persian babe can take a punch.....
[Video]
She didn't look any too happy about that!
Looked like she went shouting after them and some folks were trying to pull her back.
| 235 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:21:50pm |
re: #226 quickjustice
You know the bright line is 1979, when the pro-American Shah was overthrown, with Jimmy Carter's acquiescence, by supporters of the current regime. Prior to 1979, the Iranian government and nation was pro-American. After 1979, things changed to anti-American.
I don't hate a people because of their heinous government. Do you?
Nahh ,,, I just hate disengenuous posts, context manipulation, and name calling.
Are there and have there always been Pro American Iranians
YES
Are there and have there always been Anti American Iranians
AGAIN , YES
Has the USA meddled into the affairs in Iran in the past
YES
Did the old USSR and current day Russia meddle into the Iranian affairs in the past
YES
| 236 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:21:53pm |
re: #211 Dianna
Too late for that.
The State actors already tied themselves to the militia thugs. And the demonstrators burned their headquarters.
That line has been drawn.
I don't agree. It might put the fear into the army and police if they see the militia being targeted. 1,000,000 angry people can be pretty damned intimidating, particularly if they feel they have nothing to lose.
| 237 |
albusteve Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:21:59pm |
re: #227 Wendya
[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]
-Ouch!
BOs whole world view is a fantasy....to speak out truthfully about Iraq will help expose his juvenile outlook...deep down he knows this
| 238 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:22:24pm |
re: #229 Sharmuta
God love her. They're as gutsy as the men.
I think they're even gutsier. See my #228. The guys run away after being hit. She gets back up and goes after the cop. They really are amazing.
| 240 |
Lynn B. Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:22:34pm |
Make no mistake, as the post-election demonstrations have demonstrated, there is enormous opposition to Iran’s existing government structure, and indeed to the entire Islamic Revolution of 1979. Young people (those under 30 constitute approximately 70 percent of the total population) are unhappy and know they could have a different life if freed from harsh clerical rule. Economic grievances are massive, after 30 years of theologians mismanaging the economy. And ethnic discontent (only about 50 percent of the population is Persian) is widespread.
But giving effect to this discontent was never in the cards in the June 12 election, which was intended to bolster the Islamic Revolution, not to undercut it. Outsiders, including Obama, conflated the seething national discontent with the sham election process and simply misunderstood what was actually happening. Such dramatic misperception of political reality inside Iran, does not, needless to say, bode well for overall U.S. policy toward Iran’s nuclear and terrorist threats.
| 241 |
mikalm Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:23:02pm |
re: #228 Killgore Trout
Tough lady. Those batons can really hurt.
| 242 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:23:06pm |
re: #231 iceweasel
With no news coming out except thru the tweets and some live-bloggers, I guess it's hard to know what the actual facts are.
But a lot of folks seem to be reporting that Lebanese are there.
| 243 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:23:40pm |
re: #228 Killgore Trout
Persian babe can take a punch.....
I hope she yelled something like.. Come back here you fucking cowards!
| 245 |
brookly red Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:24:02pm |
re: #230 Fenway_Nation
Again, I'm late to the thread, but I have a modest proposal-
I'm sure even 6 years later, there's an abundance of small arms laying and munitions around in Iraq that would be easy to lose, difficult to trace and impossible to prove they had Uncle Sam's fingerprints on them.
I'm also reasonably certain that any Kurd worth their salt in Northewestern Iraq knows of some good smuggling routes.
Now I'm not saying you put the two together.....I'm just sayin'...
It was posted earlier that routes from the north have been cut off. It would seem that the powers that be are concerned about just that.
| 247 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:24:18pm |
re: #212 reine.de.tout
One of the Iran twitterers said he was going to contact Twitter and ask them to delay the maintenance.
I think I had it in previous thread.
I haven't caught up yet. :)
From what I'm reading there's an effort under way to get twitter to at least change the timing of the maintenance so it will be 3 or 4 am Iran time; right now it's scheduled for 9.30 - 11 am Iran time.
| 248 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:25:09pm |
re: #242 reine.de.tout
With no news coming out except thru the tweets and some live-bloggers, I guess it's hard to know what the actual facts are.
But a lot of folks seem to be reporting that Lebanese are there.
Yep. And as the HuffPo blogger points out-- it wouldnt be the first time Iran brought them in to put down an uprising.
| 249 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:25:11pm |
Oh, goody!
Registration is open.
If I hurry, maybe I can get in!
| 253 |
Fenway_Nation Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:28:32pm |
re: #245 brookly red
It was posted earlier that routes from the north have been cut off. It would seem that the powers that be are concerned about just that.
Even the 'unofficial' routes?
/Probably not officially cut off, but under greater scrutiny than usual.
| 254 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:28:37pm |
re: #182 zombie
That's what really needs to happen. Start to win the propaganda war. Take over a TVG station, and a radio station. Broadcast what's really going on.
Suggestion: There are Iranian "government in exile" groups in France and the US. Obama should C130-them to Basra, armed them to the hilt, and use SEAL teams to "inject" them across the border into Iran. Let the counter-revolution start in earnest. A little chaso coming in from the Iraq border will cause major headaches for the government, and help to overload the system and cause a breakdown.
I pledge a trillion dollars.
| 255 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:28:58pm |
re: #235 sattv4u2
And other than "context manipulation", "disingenuous posts", and "name calling" your point is that everyone did it, so there's complete moral equivalency here, correct?
No goods guys, no bad guys, just the Great Game, right?
I like the U.S. I think that on balance, and in the long historical context, we've helped the Iranian people more than not. Certainly in 1946. And yes, even in 1953.
| 256 |
samsgran1948 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:29:12pm |
re: #165 taxfreekiller
On the tanks and heavy armor.
Fake attacks and or protest at lots of wide spread points, make them move the forces about.
The show of force in the streets will rally more support to you.
They will break some of them moving them around, some will get lost, some will be left behind by the troops.
It will use up gas supplies , if you can keep the refineries off line and not harm them refineries you can win with fewer getting hurt bad.
They will not attempt to move about on foot, there you have them.
Think before you act, have three escape routes to use to escape any confrontation. If you break up a march make sure all know where to rally later.
I think we need to take up a collection to buy TFK a ticket to Tehran. I think the Iranians could really use his advice. (Yes, it would be a round-trip ticket.)
| 257 |
nikis-knight Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:29:20pm |
re: #38 Last Mohican
Your repeated insults directed at those who criticize Obama over his handling of this have been duly noted by all. You had a good point, and you made it effectively, though insultingly. Now you're just being insulting.
Huh, and here I thought he was mocking Obama's election rhetoric. Guess I'm behind.
| 258 |
winston06 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:29:26pm |
To American Friends
Please call your government, senators and congressmen. Ask them to support us in Iran. Please call the white house. Ask them please, to stand up for us.
Please don't let us alone
| 259 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:29:47pm |
re: #54 Nevergiveup
OK gun lizards, what is that he firing with, an AK something or other?
It's a Glock automatic shotgun revolver assault weapon.
/awaiting my Pulitzer now
| 260 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:29:47pm |
re: #255 quickjustice
And other than "context manipulation", "disingenuous posts", and "name calling" your point is that everyone did it, so there's complete moral equivalency here, correct?
No goods guys, no bad guys, just the Great Game, right?
I like the U.S. I think that on balance, and in the long historical context, we've helped the Iranian people more than not. Certainly in 1946. And yes, even in 1953.
Nope ,, just a history lesson for you ,, gratis
| 261 |
Wendya Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:30:26pm |
re: #259 Occasional Reader
It's a Glock automatic shotgun revolver assault weapon.
/awaiting my Pulitzer now
You could give lessons to the AP!
| 262 |
Salamantis Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:30:44pm |
The very first thing the protestors should do is to stockpile and secrete as much gasoline as possible, so they can remain mobile. The second thing they should do is blow the gas storage depots, so that the government forces rapidly lose THEIR mobility.
They should establish means of communication that are as impervious as possible to the government's attempts to infiltrate them or shut them down, then hamstring the government's own means of communication as best they are able.
They should be talking to anyone anywhere who might have access to weapons, and considering whether they can knock off police stations and armories for their weapons and ammo.
And they should decide on, secrete, protect and publicize those who they plan to replace the mullahs with; these people should appeal to as many Iranians as possible while still being people they can trust to not re-institute dictatorship, be it theocratic or otherwise.
| 263 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:30:54pm |
ICEWEASEL - SOME INFO:
from persiankiwi twitter:
rumours that some of the motorbikes are arab speaking ppls - cannot confirm if Hezbollah from Lebanon #Iranelection
| 264 |
Sarcasmo Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:30:58pm |
re: Clubsec
And ObamUH says WHAT? 'crickets'
A historic chance to alter the ME and our pres has nothing to say, makes me sad.
| 265 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:31:35pm |
re: #255 quickjustice
And other than "context manipulation", "disingenuous posts", and "name calling" your point is that everyone did it, so there's complete moral equivalency here, correct?
No goods guys, no bad guys, just the Great Game, right?
I like the U.S. I think that on balance, and in the long historical context, we've helped the Iranian people more than not. Certainly in 1946. And yes, even in 1953.
Besides that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?
ggeeezzz!
| 266 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:31:37pm |
re: #205 taxfreekiller
If you can find a way, put evidence of support for the protest into the pockets of some of the troops and or militias, so that later if found they will turn on each other. Any way to sow suspicions and distrust inside the RG units and the militias.
use your heads,
do not get yourselves dead
Amen and amen!
| 267 |
Fenway_Nation Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:32:00pm |
re: #259 Occasional Reader
It's a Glock automatic shotgun revolver assault weapon.
/awaiting my Pulitzer now
The kind that you can sneak through metal detectors!
| 268 |
mikalm Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:32:43pm |
Taxfreekiller (and other Lizard strategists):
Any of you ever read this book?
| 269 |
SurferDoc Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:33:20pm |
I'd like to see the citizens beat the living fuck out of the Baasij.
| 270 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:33:55pm |
re: #267 Fenway_Nation
The kind that you can sneak through metal detectors!
/consulting Reuters Field Guide to Firearms
That's the Uzi variant on the same, but yes. They're made entirely of ceramic!
| 271 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:34:19pm |
re: #265 sattv4u2
Uh, I was quoting you characterizing me. And your credentials for your deep knowledge of Iranian history, and of U.S.-Iranian relations, are what?
| 272 |
justdanny Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:35:11pm |
Fucking bastards. God damned evil fucking bastards!
| 273 |
Buster Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:35:25pm |
re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I never know which way to ding those...but they're so dang clever.
I take my cue from TOTUS.
| 274 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:35:47pm |
re: #263 reine.de.tout
ICEWEASEL - SOME INFO:
from persiankiwi twitter:
rumours that some of the motorbikes are arab speaking ppls - cannot confirm if Hezbollah from Lebanon #Iranelection
Good to know. I'm not surprised.
Has this been posted yet? Awesome collection of photos:
[Link: www.boston.com...]
Check out photo 34 for image of smashed computer in dorm; reports are that the police are targeting computers and removing memory cards and the like at all the universities. (There's an image somewhere of a destroyed computer lab at one of the unis too)
| 275 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:35:50pm |
re: #249 reine.de.tout
Gonna be a flood of socks...
| 276 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:35:56pm |
re: #262 Salamantis
The gov;t owns and controls all of the gas, so procuring and stockpiling will be major feat.
The gov't also owns and controls most if not all of the RF band of frequencies. What you're seeing is most likely transmissions that utilize "outside" frequncies, (satellite phones, neighboring countries cells,
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Just stating the difficulties to achieve those objectives in what already is a chaotic (at best) climate
| 277 |
ryannon Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:36:09pm |
re: #212 reine.de.tout
One of the Iran twitterers said he was going to contact Twitter and ask them to delay the maintenance.
I think I had it in previous thread.
27 minutes ago from web
Twitters net provide phone # [no phone numbers allowed]. Call to tell them #NoMaintenance ! #IranElection #NoMaintenance
31 minutes ago from web
| 278 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:36:10pm |
re: #29 mikalm
According to a leftist friend of mine who's watching the Iranian uprising, Americans should have done the same thing during the 2000 and 2004 elections, but we were too busy with "cheeseburgers and American Idol" to do so.
Lord have mercy. Is that what stopped us? But I don't even EAT cheesburgers.
| 279 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:36:16pm |
Fair summary, Danny. And it's been true since 1979, when President Jimmy Carter acquiesced to it.
| 280 |
Dianna Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:36:20pm |
re: #268 mikalm
Taxfreekiller (and other Lizard strategists):
Any of you ever read this book?
Yes.
That's all I'm saying.
| 281 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:36:23pm |
re: #272 justdanny
Fucking bastards. God damned evil fucking bastards!
Their days are numbered; take heart.
| 282 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:36:38pm |
re: #271 quickjustice
Uh, I was quoting you characterizing me. And your credentials for your deep knowledge of Iranian history, and of U.S.-Iranian relations, are what?
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night
| 283 |
Clubsec Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:37:05pm |
Well at least the guys doing the shooting didn't have them on 'full auto' if that's any consolation.
So far we've elected a Boy president driven by his hormones.
An inarticulate president driven by his belief's but not his MBA reason.
And now we have a Child president driven by his inexperience and narcissistic ego.
I hope the poor bastards in Iran can keep the ball rolling long enough to get some support from the simpletons in DC. But I ain't gonna hold my breath. HopeNchange is working the 'Health Care Crisis' and as Rahm says 'You stupid Mother F*ckers, never let a crisis go to waste.'
| 284 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:37:09pm |
| 285 |
ryannon Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:37:57pm |
Forgot about the no phone numbers allowed.
Phone number posted here, scroll down eight or nine tweets....
[Link: explore.twitter.com...]
| 286 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:38:21pm |
re: #274 iceweasel
Good to know. I'm not surprised.
Has this been posted yet? Awesome collection of photos:
[Link: www.boston.com...]
Check out photo 34 for image of smashed computer in dorm; reports are that the police are targeting computers and removing memory cards and the like at all the universities. (There's an image somewhere of a destroyed computer lab at one of the unis too)
I think these were posted earlier, but good to repost, some people weren't here earlier.
I posted a link earlier, too, to somebody's FB photo album.
| 287 |
Sarcasmo Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:38:43pm |
I think that about covers it.
| 288 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:39:03pm |
re: #282 sattv4u2
Hmmm. I guess the Bible in the upper left-hand drawer does have that description of the Babylonians overrunning Jerusalem, and leading the Israelites into slavery. Yeah-- that would do it!
| 289 |
Unbound Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:39:23pm |
The worst thing that could happen now is for the US to intervene in any PUBLIC way. This thing needs to work itself out in 'natively'.
Recent history in Poland, Rumania, the Philippines, most of the Soviet Block show the way that these uprisings succeed, and that it is best to stand back and quietly support the transition through less-than-visible means.
Intervention in any way by the USA will only provide a rallying point for the hardliners... and yes, it if takes having the USA move some of the hardliners secretly out of the country in order for the transition to take place, then that is the best road to be taken.
| 291 |
lanaty Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:39:45pm |
re: #194 reine.de.tout
Recently heard that the number is 119. Thanks for the info.
| 292 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:39:46pm |
from PersianKiwi:
All normal proxys out - all normal ISP's out in Tehran - #Iranelection
and
ANejad site is still down in IRI #Iranelection
| 293 |
Tatterdemalian Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:40:34pm |
Until the development of parliamentary democracy, the only way to change a government was through force of arms. Once one group felt it had enough military power, or that the cause was important enough, it would start a civil war with the government, and after many lives were lost, the victor would be the new government until it lost a war to a challenger.
The process of voting replaced this inefficient, wasteful process with a more civilized method of expressing opinion and discontent, much as the development of currency and later bank notes replaced the inefficient barter system. However, like currency systems, it was a simplification that depended entirely on its ability to accurately measure the will of the governed and force a bloodless regime change, with a margin of error such that, even if all the questionable votes could be proved to be for the loser, it would not affect the results enough to overcome the winner. This actually can be calculated based on advanced statistical principles correlated to a number of bureaucratic structures, the most important of which is the census.
When the vote does not match the opinion on the ground, then the vote becomes as useless as a currency that is counterfeited until it no longer has any value. In this case, only die-hard believers will continue to use the vote as any kind of metric; the people of the country will instead return to the "civil war" method of changing regimes, just as the "black market" becomes the only source of bartered goods when the currency is devalued.
In this case, the only real option for regime change is to rally an army and kill or be killed in all-out war, just as it was before the invention of voting. Unfortunately, the Ahmadinejad forces have the upper hand in weaponry, communication, training, and organization; the Mousavi forces only have an advantage in numbers, and those will quickly evaporate once the college students realize that they might actually get hurt or killed, with nothing to show for it, not even a memory of their fight.
| 294 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:41:08pm |
HuffPo rounding up some Obama statements--
6:15 PM ET -- Obama: "It would be wrong to stay silent."
# Reuters: Obama says he's deeply troubled by the post-election violence in Iran1 minute ago from BNO Headquarters
# AP: Obama says it's up to Iran to determine its own leaders.
More from CNN: Obama say he's "troubled by the situation in iran, it would be wrong to stay silent..."
Don't know any more yet.
| 295 |
yochanan Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:41:55pm |
Mikosham mikosham ghatle baradaram-ro (I'll kill the murderer of my brother)
Basiji-e bi-gheyrat, Doshman-e khoone mellat (The shameless basiji, is the blood enemy of people)"
| 296 |
samsgran1948 Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:42:34pm |
re: #220 Killgore Trout
The last few seconds of that video clip is the money shot: The Basiji launching mass attacks on civilians from their motorcycles. That's how the mullahs are trying to break things up -- with a flying wedge of club, machete and gun-toting savages.
| 297 |
yochanan Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:42:37pm |
Mikosham mikosham ghatle baradaram-ro (I'll kill the murderer of my brother)
Basiji-e bi-gheyrat, Doshman-e khoone mellat (The shameless basiji, is the blood enemy of people)"
| 298 |
yochanan Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:43:10pm |
Mikosham mikosham ghatle baradaram-ro (I'll kill the murderer of my brother)
Basiji-e bi-gheyrat, Doshman-e khoone mellat (The shameless basiji, is the blood enemy of people)"
| 299 |
quickjustice Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:44:16pm |
re: #294 iceweasel
Obama: "On the one hand, the Iranian demonstrators have a point. On the other, the government of Iran represents the deeply held beliefs of a very religious part of the Muslim population, and their views also must be respected."
I think I'll apply as a speechwriter for the Teleprompter!
| 301 |
yochanan Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:45:45pm |
the zero wants to shake the hand of the president of Iran as bloody as it will be by then.
| 302 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:48:06pm |
re: #299 quickjustice
Heh. Updinged you because it's funny, even if it hurts.
I really hope he doesn't come out with something like that.
| 303 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:49:47pm |
re: #38 Last Mohican
Your repeated insults directed at those who criticize Obama over his handling of this have been duly noted by all. You had a good point, and you made it effectively, though insultingly. Now you're just being insulting.
Suck it up.
| 304 |
Yashmak Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:52:04pm |
re: #10 Dianna
Now the protesters know what they're up against. The illusions are fading.
I don't think they carried many illusions to begin with.
If they're going to keep going, they have to be clear that when you tell armed men that you're going to kill them, you bloody well better mean it.
And start thinking. And planning. And finding a few of your number who know which end the bullet emerges from.
I fear for those in these protests/riots, I really do. There's a far, wide gap between losing your illusions, and being willing to put yourself in the line of fire. It's impossible to tell, from here, if the crowds have reached that point yet, or not. Moreover, it's not just a small number of mullahs involved, with a few armed toughs around them. It's an almost 50/50 split in the nation, as far as opinions over candidates go in this election. So we're not talking about a huge majority standing up to a tiny, oppressive minority. We're talking about half the country, with guns and a lot of hate, against the other half, with ideology but little firepower on their side.
Historical precedent doesn't look too good for Moussavi's supporters. I wish it were otherwise. I hope they can tear the mullah's theocracy down, and build a shining new republic in its place. . .I really do. But the realist in me tells me it's not likely to go that way.
| 305 |
Yashmak Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:59:19pm |
re: #293 Tatterdemalian
the Mousavi forces only have an advantage in numbers, and those will quickly evaporate once the college students realize that they might actually get hurt or killed, with nothing to show for it, not even a memory of their fight.
In fact, even THAT advantage only exists in the urban areas. Outside of those areas, support for Ahmadinejad is higher than that for Moussavi. . .at least that's what I have read.
| 307 |
gregb Mon, Jun 15, 2009 4:13:30pm |
This news is moving really fast. The crowds are starting to become a real threat. They are estimating in the 100's of thousands at different places/points.
I wonder what color/flower they'll name it? Tulip Revolution is already taken for Kyrgyzstan. Green Revolution refers to the industrial revolution changes.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 308 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Mon, Jun 15, 2009 4:18:12pm |
re: #119 Bobibutu
IIRC Carter refused the Shah into the US.
Allowed in for medical reasons and then kicked out.
| 309 |
flakmusic Mon, Jun 15, 2009 4:30:39pm |
How do you say ACORNre: #306 Sarita
This could be ACORN training for 2012.
How do you say ACORN in farsi?
| 310 |
irving Mon, Jun 15, 2009 4:43:03pm |
Phew. It's really startling - and a little frightening - to watch what may well be a revolution unfolding around us. You can't help but wonder what Tianamen would have been like with Twitter and the Internet as mature a technology as it is today...
It's pretty to think so, that the US could do something to tip this in our favor. But our history in Iran is checkered, to put it mildly, and accurately predicting the results of any action on our behalf is simple too difficult to risk. Heck, even if the "best case" scenario unfolds, and the revolutionaries push Iran to a more moderate government, there's a lot of proto-nuclear weapon technology that could become less than secure.
As hard as it is, the best thing we can do is sit on our hands - at least publicly. Privately and secretly, Lord knows what's going on and I don't want to know what's going on. But one more day of silence, as hard as it is, is not a bad idea.
| 311 |
right_on_target Mon, Jun 15, 2009 4:46:46pm |
re: #29 mikalm
According to a leftist friend of mine who's watching the Iranian uprising, Americans should have done the same thing during the 2000 and 2004 elections, but we were too busy with "cheeseburgers and American Idol" to do so.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Same thing could have been said about last year's election, even more so.
| 312 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Jun 15, 2009 4:51:34pm |
re: #310 irving
For what it's worth, I ran across this earlier and posted it in the newer thread
According to an actual Iranian in Iran, the administration’s silence helps the cause.
A former student of mine from Iran heard from his brother for the first time in a couple of days. When my student bemoaned the cautiousness of Obama administration’s statements, his brother confirmed one aspect of Spencer Ackerman’s account of the administration’s behavior, saying that government forces are already accusing protesters of collaborating with the U.S., and that protesters are actually worried that Obama will make an explicit show of support, as that would restore some credibility to what the government has said about the election and, more importantly, could undermine a reform coalition in which some factions are none-too-fond of America.
[Link: edgeofthewest.wordpress.com...]
Food for thought.
| 313 |
Jack_ITA Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:01:00pm |
I wish there could be something useful that the international community could do, that we could do to support these people. Nothing comes to mind, so I'll just hope they'll be able to tear the mullahs down.
| 314 |
jayzee Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:06:54pm |
The problem is these brave Iranians are putting their hopes in more people who will not offer real reform. The theocracy will remain in tact and their new leading reformer is an evil bastard too.
We should be training someone to cut off the head, not just give a different haircut.
| 315 |
jayzee Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:07:34pm |
re: #313 Jack_ITA
I wish there could be something useful that the international community could do, that we could do to support these people. Nothing comes to mind, so I'll just hope they'll be able to tear the mullahs down.
They're not fighting the mullahs.
| 316 |
right_on_target Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:09pm |
re: #178 quickjustice
Killgore thinks the Eisenhower Administration should have permitted a Soviet takeover of Iran.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's what Eisenhower didn't want, the USSR cutting ASIA completely in half, all the way to the Indian Ocen. The Russians would have had a warm water port.
| 317 |
ryannon Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:35:20pm |
re: #313 Jack_ITA
I wish there could be something useful that the international community could do, that we could do to support these people. Nothing comes to mind, so I'll just hope they'll be able to tear the mullahs down.
Here's something people can do:
[Link: blogs.wsj.com...]
| 318 |
li'l mamzer Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:20:55pm |
re: #14 FurryOldGuyJeans
Carter allowed the Shah into the US, so maybe O can do the same if the Mullahs get tossed.
/ fine tactical move there.
Actually, i wouldn't mind having a crack at the Mullahs if they just happened to get lost and wander into my basement.
First up would be a settling of accounts for the thousands of murdered Jews whose blood is on their hands.................
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