Video: Obama’s Statement on Iran Election Violence

World • Views: 2,547

Protesters in Iran are laying plans for more demonstrations tomorrow.

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iranian demonstrators called for more mass protests on Tuesday, a day after hardline Islamic militiamen killed a man during a march by tens of thousands against a presidential election they say was rigged.

The Iranian capital has already seen three days of the biggest and most violent anti-government protests since the 1979 Islamic revolution after hardline incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was declared winner of last Friday’s vote.

“Tomorrow at 5 p.m. (8:30 a.m. EDT) at Vali-ye Asr Square,” some of the crowd chanted at Monday’s march, referring to a major road junction in the sprawling city of some 12 million.

Here’s President Obama’s statement:

Youtube Video

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666 comments

1 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:00:55pm

"Present".....

2 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:01:06pm

Invalid parameters

3 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:01:06pm

"Yackety yack! Don't talk back!"

4 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:01:54pm

I'm surprised he didn't yawn.

5 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:01:55pm

"Now, all of you saw the rabbit go into the hat, correct?"

6 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:02:15pm

If he had just said the magic words that McCain would have said, everything would be all better right now.

7 yochanan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:02:15pm

the zero wants to shake the bloody hand of the short shit.

8 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:03:34pm

A very cautious statement, with a rehash of his "tough negotiations without illusions"... yes, that's the phrase he uses now instead of "without preconditions". Change!

9 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:03:36pm

"I am the one you have been waiting for......why dinja vote for me?"
- Obama

10 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:03:45pm
11 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:03:57pm

"On the one hand, free speech and dissent are universal values. On the other hand, suppression of free speech and dissent also is a universal value."

12 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:04:12pm

"Sometimes the United States can be a handy poltical football"

Yeah, Barack... especially when you run hither and yon apologizing for every single perceived wrong committed by the United States.

13 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:04:14pm

I think Obama has spoken appropriately, given the circumstances. He can't be seen as taking sides, for fear of being accused of meddling in a foreign country's internal affairs, yet he still came out and expressed his dismay with respect to the violence going on against the peaceful demonstrators.

14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:04:32pm

re: #6 Cato the Elder

Can't argue that one, Cato.

15 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:04:54pm

Thugs don't do diplomacy, 0bama.

16 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:05:03pm

"The democratic process, free speech, peaceful dissent are... universal values"

Our O-man is starting to sound like GW Bush. In a good way.

17 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:05:10pm

re: #13 J.S.

I think Obama has spoken appropriately, given the circumstances. He can't be seen as taking sides, for fear of being accused of meddling in a foreign country's internal affairs, yet he still came out and expressed his dismay with respect to the violence going on against the peaceful demonstrators.

Why not? He certainly meddles in our affairs.
///

18 Steffan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:06:05pm

It's like they said: He got the 3am call... and didn't answer the phone.

Yep, sterling example of leadership from The One. Not.

I'm surprised he hasn't sent Jimmy Carter to Tehran to certify the election.

19 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:06:09pm

At least O told us right off that he was being "very clear"

20 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:06:20pm
21 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:06:30pm

re: #13 J.S.

I think Obama has spoken appropriately, given the circumstances. He can't be seen as taking sides, for fear of being accused of meddling in a foreign country's internal affairs, yet he still came out and expressed his dismay with respect to the violence going on against the peaceful demonstrators.

why can't he take the side of freedom and liberty?....that's not meddling, it should be a universal ideology that he never wavers from, no matter who or what

22 bellamags  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:06:59pm

He seemed distracted and lost to me. Like he had something else on his mind.

23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:06:59pm

Can someone sum it up in 15 words or less? I reaaaaally don't want to watch.

24 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:07:01pm

Apologetic preamble.

He repeats the exact phrase from the State Department, "deeply troubled."

Since I called for a statement previously I think I'll pause for minute.

25 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:07:22pm

So Obama says the world is full of HOPE and inspired by the Iranian election, regardless of the outcome.

Give me a fucking break.

26 BignJames  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:07:26pm

re: #20 buzzsawmonkey

Isn't there a line about kissing someone's ass at high noon in diploMacy's window?

Yeah....and give him 30 mins. to draw a crowd.

27 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:07:37pm

re: #22 bellamags

He seemed distracted and lost to me. Like he had something else on his mind.

No teleprompter.

28 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:05pm

re: #15 Sharmuta

Thugs don't do diplomacy, 0bama.

We have orders to shoot.
*Thugs diplomacy.*

29 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:11pm

Fence sitting is really an Art

and Obama is the Michaelangelo of fence sitters

30 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:16pm

Obama won't express support those fighting and dying for their freedom.

But, this morning in a "major" speech he proposed taking a little more of our freedom.

31 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:24pm

What I find deeply troubling is that our president will still have any desire for diplomacy with thugs who shoot their own people and fund terror throughout the world.

32 Steffan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:24pm

re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can someone sum it up in 15 words or less? I reaaaaally don't want to watch.

He's voting "present."

33 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:24pm

re: #22 bellamags

He seemed distracted and lost to me. Like he had something else on his mind.

he probably want's out already...he knows he's no match for the big dogs

34 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:25pm

re: #22 bellamags

He seemed distracted and lost to me. Like he had something else on his mind.

like "Why The Fuck did this have to happen NOW?

35 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:41pm

DIPLOMACY ,.....

DRINK!

36 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:48pm

Well I can agree with the President on his statement....truly what would anyone expect? Ahh we need to crack down on them for enforcing their soveirng rights? Send in the Marines! Even though I would enjoy that given any chance we need to let Iran do their thing without our interference or we become a unified cry from the "supreme commander" on how the infidels are working this and not a "grass roots" movement by their own people to remove the yoke of oppression...we can go following the aftermath.....

37 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:52pm

re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can someone sum it up in 15 words or less? I reaaaaally don't want to watch.

Blaw blaw blaw deeply troubled blaw blaw blaw.

38 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:08:57pm

re: #32 Steffan

GMTA!

39 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:09:12pm

damn typoes.....should have spell checked :P

40 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:09:24pm

Good news fresh from Twitter:

@Zadi: Twitter hears protest & reschedules downtime to let info flow in Iran: [Link: bit.ly...]

They had scheduled 90 minutes of downtime tonight. Now backing off to let the tweets in Tehran go on. Yay Twitter! It was tweeps who pressured them into this.

41 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:09:28pm
42 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:09:30pm

"Tough direct dialogue"

WTF is that !?!?!?

43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:09:33pm

Well...I guess I've got to watch it. See y'all in about five minutes.

44 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:09:39pm

Transcript here:

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

About half way down the page.

45 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:10:08pm

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well...I guess I've got to watch it. See y'all in about five minutes.

you'll be SORRY!

46 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:10:10pm

roll out the teleprompter.

47 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:11:03pm

re: #42 sattv4u2

"Tough direct dialogue"

WTF is that !?!?!?

That's when he says: Let me be clear...

48 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:11:12pm

re: #41 buzzsawmonkey

DiploMacy's all about Gimbeling with the fate of the world...

right on Target!

49 BignJames  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:11:47pm

Is this the "Biden Test"? Or was that the Norks? Or Israel? Or Venesuela? Any body got a program?

50 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:11:58pm

re: #48 albusteve

right on Target!

It was WoolWorth the effort.......

51 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:12:09pm

re: #6 Cato the Elder

If he had just said the magic words that McCain would have said, everything would be all better right now.

What words would those be?

52 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:12:36pm

re: #51 Gang of One

What words would those be?

Exactly.

53 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:12:53pm

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Y'all were right.

54 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:12:54pm

(Repost from the prior thread)

I have to give him a well done for the words themselves, and the tone.

While I have serious doubts about his definition of diplomacy, this statement appears (at least at first pass) to be reasonable and what's needed.

55 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:12:59pm

re: #51 Gang of One

What words would those be?

Sarcasm it waz.

56 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:13:14pm
57 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:13:14pm

re: #21 albusteve

Well, imagine (obviously this is a time in the future -- and right now we don't know what will transpire), but just imagine that Iran melts down into a kind of civil war...Suppose further, that the U.S. takes a stand for one side, and suppose further that that side loses...What will happen to any further discussions with Iran? the U.S. would then be seen as an opponent of Iran. (No super power, such as the U.S., imo, should get engaged/embroiled in some internal, waring factions...good grief, do we in the West even know who's who or what's what over there? I don't think so. )

58 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:13:35pm

re: #30 jcm

Obama won't express support those fighting and dying for their freedom.

But, this morning in a "major" speech he proposed taking a little more of our freedom.

This man is so lacking. If you listened to that video, he is totally incapable of forming thoughts and communicating without a prepared speech and his teleprompter.

It doesn't take someone or something special to do that. Look at the comments here on LGF. Charles puts up a thread, we get into a conversation and we are forming whole paragraphs, communicating our ideas with each other. It's not hard.

But listen to him, it takes him over 4 minutes to get across two or three simple points. He stumbles, he mumbles, he has no style or vocal patterns that would engender interest of belief in what he is saying.

It almost hurts to try to listen to him finish a thought.

59 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:13:44pm

re: #50 LGoPs

It was WoolWorth the effort.......

worth every Penny's of it

60 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:13:50pm

A contour map of Iran here.

61 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:13:53pm

re: #7 yochanan

the zero wants to shake the bloody hand of the short shit.

is anyone surprised? o has been wanting to shake his unclenched or clenched
hand for months. o has the utmost respect for islamic thugs.

62 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:14:03pm

re: #42 sattv4u2

"Tough direct dialogue"

WTF is that !?!?!?

That's what he is now calling "talks without preconditons".

63 bellamags  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:14:29pm

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

He is the king of sock puppets.

64 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:14:44pm

re: #54 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(Repost from the prior thread)

I have to give him a well done for the words themselves, and the tone.

While I have serious doubts about his definition of diplomacy, this statement appears (at least at first pass) to be reasonable and what's needed.

He basically said, "not our problem, we're staying out of it... do what you need to do to take out the garbage so we can continue negotiations".

We've had President in the past who have made statements in SUPPORT of freedom and have done so either directly or in such a way that the meaning was clear. Too bad Obama didn't learn from them.

65 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:15:09pm

Miers Deposed By House Panel Looking Into Attorney Firings
Former White House Counsel Harriet Miers testifies, behind closed doors, after months of wrangling between Congress and members of the Bush administration.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Iran's at a cross road, Afghanistan's up for grabs, the Palestinians are up to no good, Unemployment is skyrocketing, and our heathlcare system is under attack and this is what these fucks are up to?

66 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:15:31pm

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

This man is so lacking. If you listened to that video, he is totally incapable of forming thoughts and communicating without a prepared speech and his teleprompter.

It doesn't take someone or something special to do that. Look at the comments here on LGF. Charles puts up a thread, we get into a conversation and we are forming whole paragraphs, communicating our ideas with each other. It's not hard.

But listen to him, it takes him over 4 minutes to get across two or three simple points. He stumbles, he mumbles, he has no style or vocal patterns that would engender interest of belief in what he is saying.

It almost hurts to try to listen to him finish a thought.

You did that without 4 minutes of um's and ah's.
And you are spot on.

67 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:15:58pm

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

It would be funny if the networks did a running "um" counter.

68 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:07pm

Meanwhile, lying "quickjustice" on the last thread claimed Obama said this:

"On the one hand, the Iranian demonstrators have a point. On the other, the government of Iran represents the deeply held beliefs of a very religious part of the Muslim population, and their views also must be respected."

No lie is too base for the practitioners of ODS. This will be all over Freeperville and Fox and no amount of rebuttal will expunge it from the insanosphere's "record".

69 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:17pm

re: #57 J.S.

Well, imagine (obviously this is a time in the future -- and right now we don't know what will transpire), but just imagine that Iran melts down into a kind of civil war...Suppose further, that the U.S. takes a stand for one side, and suppose further that that side loses...What will happen to any further discussions with Iran? the U.S. would then be seen as an opponent of Iran. (No super power, such as the U.S., imo, should get engaged/embroiled in some internal, waring factions...good grief, do we in the West even know who's who or what's what over there? I don't think so. )

there is no meaningful discussion with Iran now....we are an opponent of Iran...so how do you justify deposing Hussein then?

70 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:27pm

re: #54 pre-Boomer Marine brat

My point exactly!

71 Lee Coller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:42pm

Will someone please tell the State Department stop pretending Iranian elections are democratic in any meaningful sense of the word. What happens in Iran would be the equivalent of requiring all candidates in our elections be approved by the John Birch Society.

72 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:48pm

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

This man is so lacking. If you listened to that video, he is totally incapable of forming thoughts and communicating without a prepared speech and his teleprompter.

It doesn't take someone or something special to do that. Look at the comments here on LGF. Charles puts up a thread, we get into a conversation and we are forming whole paragraphs, communicating our ideas with each other. It's not hard.

But listen to him, it takes him over 4 minutes to get across two or three simple points. He stumbles, he mumbles, he has no style or vocal patterns that would engender interest of belief in what he is saying.

It almost hurts to try to listen to him finish a thought.

Yeah but don't forget.......Bush was stoopid.
/

73 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:57pm

re: #25 Wendya

So Obama says the world is full of HOPE and inspired by the Iranian election, regardless of the outcome.

Give me a fucking break.

He did NOT say ... by the election itself.
I suggest going back and listening again.

74 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:57pm

re: #64 Wendya

He basically said, "not our problem, we're staying out of it... do what you need to do to take out the garbage so we can continue negotiations".

We've had President in the past who have made statements in SUPPORT of freedom and have done so either directly or in such a way that the meaning was clear. Too bad Obama didn't learn from them.

Maybe he just doesn't think it's important enough to get involved. These are just little countries ya know. /

75 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:16:58pm

re: #56 buzzsawmonkey

...and we'll have a barrel of fun
Roll out the Teleprompter
Our hope and change soon will get done
Roll out the Teleprompter
Pretend the solution is here
Roll out the Teleprompter
Believe what you hear!

Roll out the teleprompter
Drown all our sorrows with beer
Roll out the teleprompter
Hope and change is nothing to fear

76 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:17:08pm

I don't think the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave should dialog with thugs who repress their people and slaughter them in the streets, but that's just me.

77 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:17:28pm

re: #65 Nevergiveup

Forgive my profound ignorance but don't US Attorneys serve at the President's leisure?

78 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:17:29pm

re: #55 unrealizedviewpoint

Sarcasm it waz.

I thought he was being all Zen like.

79 songbird  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:17:41pm

re: #59 albusteve

worth every Penny's of it

Kind of Sears the conscience, though!

80 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:17:54pm

re: #77 experiencedtraveller

Forgive my profound ignorance but don't US Attorneys serve at the President's leisure?

Only under Democrats?

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:17:58pm

re: #67 Sharmuta

I used to be in "Toastmasters". We had an "Ah Counter" for every meeting.

82 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:18:04pm

re: #67 Sharmuta

It would be funny if the networks did a running "um" counter.

the thing would spin so fast we could hook up a generator to it and light up half the east coast

83 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:18:06pm
84 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:18:12pm

re: #77 experiencedtraveller

Forgive my profound ignorance but don't US Attorneys serve at the President's leisure?

Yes. Clinton fired all 93 and nobody said boo.

85 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:18:12pm
I think it would be wrong for me to be silent about what we've seen on the television over the last few days. And what I would say to those people who put so much hope and energy and optimism into the political process, I would say to them that the world is watching and inspired by their participation, regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was. And they should know that the world is watching.

And particularly to the youth of Iran, I want them to know that we in the United States do not want to make any decisions for the Iranians, but we do believe that the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected.

I think he's walking a tightrope here and this was the best statement he can put out at this time, given that some protestors are worried that an explicit statement of support by Obama will lend credence to the government's claims that the opposition is (already) US led. That could stir up more anti-US sentiment and undermine any reform coalition--which already has factions that are anti-US.

86 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:18:17pm

re: #79 songbird

(yay)

87 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:18:39pm

re: #65 Nevergiveup

I wonder if there will be enough time to subpoena all the "czars" after 2012?

88 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:18:43pm

re: #64 Wendya

He basically said, "not our problem, we're staying out of it... do what you need to do to take out the garbage so we can continue negotiations".

We've had President in the past who have made statements in SUPPORT of freedom and have done so either directly or in such a way that the meaning was clear. Too bad Obama didn't learn from them.

He also spoke in universalities: free speech, the ability of people to peacefully dissent -- all those are universal values and need to be respected. In a sense it is though he doesn't represent or express American values which I thought was the duty of the POTUS. Perhaps I'm wrong but to me it sounds as though he is speaking to a "global audience" and in the end sounds more like a UN speaker.

89 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:00pm

re: #66 DEZes

You did that without 4 minutes of um's and ah's.
And you are spot on.

re: #67 Sharmuta

It would be funny if the networks did a running "um" counter.

Thanks all, yes, I did that off the top of my head. And yes, I look back on the paragraph's, and I see some structure problems, I could have cleaned it up (Cato, help me :), but the point is, I was able to communicate, most Lizards understood what I was saying and there was no chance of anyone (except Avanti) from misunderstanding my statement.

90 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:09pm

re: #69 albusteve

Deposing Saddam Hussein was an entirely different matter (wholly different issue there)...that's Iraq. Does the U.S. really want a third war? This time with Iran? (imo, that's crazy talk).

91 VioletTiger  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:10pm

re: #47 Wendya

That's when he says: Let me be clear...


I think he does that to avoid an um or an ah. I think it is something they taught him to do to cover up his lousy non-teleprompter speaking.

92 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:19pm
93 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:27pm

re: #82 sattv4u2

the thing would spin so fast we could hook up a generator to it and light up half the east coast

We dont need nuclear power, if we can make that work.

94 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:36pm

re: #77 experiencedtraveller

Forgive my profound ignorance but don't US Attorneys serve at the President's leisure?

Pleasure.

95 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:38pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

Meanwhile, lying "quickjustice" on the last thread claimed Obama said this:i

No lie is too base for the practitioners of ODS. This will be all over Freeperville and Fox and no amount of rebuttal will expunge it from the insanosphere's "record".

Cato, I think you misread quickjustice-- i believe he was making a *joke*, not claiming that Obama *actually* said that.

96 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:47pm

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

I agree, it hurt my brain too.

97 Rancher  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:19:58pm

Arabs fighting against protesters in Iran? How stupid is that? This whole thing has been orchestrated as if they wanted unrest, this will inflame the populous more than anything we or even Israel could do.

98 bellamags  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:20:05pm

re: #88 Gus 802

He also spoke in universalities: free speech, the ability of people to peacefully dissent -- all those are universal values and need to be respected. In a sense it is though he doesn't represent or express American values which I thought was the duty of the POTUS. Perhaps I'm wrong but to me it sounds as though he is speaking to a "global audience" and in the end sounds more like a UN speaker.

He did this his whole campaign. He was running for president of the WORLD.

99 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:20:06pm

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

Thanks all, yes, I did that off the top of my head. And yes, I look back on the paragraph's, and I see some structure problems, I could have cleaned it up (Cato, help me :), but the point is, I was able to communicate, most Lizards understood what I was saying and there was no chance of anyone (except Avanti) from misunderstanding my statement.

Exactly.

100 Sparkizzy  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:20:16pm

This guy can sound pompous saying "My car broke down"

101 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:20:32pm

re: #98 bellamags

He did this his whole campaign. He was running for president of the WORLD.

"World leader pretend."

//

102 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:20:33pm

re: #98 bellamags

He did this his whole campaign. He was running for president of the WORLD.

And he still is.

103 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:20:36pm

re: #78 Gang of One

I thought he was being all Zen like.

There's a squabble brewing Cato & quickjustice are gonna fight.

104 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:20:45pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

What I find deeply troubling is that our president will still have any desire for diplomacy with thugs who shoot their own people and fund terror throughout the world.

(as a follow on my own post, re the statement) Yes.

After this is over, he SHOULD pull the plug on this kneejerk Carterian desire of his for "dialogue".

105 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:21:02pm

re: #90 J.S.

Especially when our "third war" will be in Korea not another one in the middle east......and of course that would classify us and Britain fighting a world war......Korea sucks for battle grounds let the Air force handle this one with nukes and bombers.....

106 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:21:03pm

I need to listen to it again, but:

I'm trying to figure out what's bothering me about it, because some of it was all right. I think it's the "Gee, we're all so very inspired, watching you struggle and cry out for freedom while being gunned down at random...best of luck to you!" feeling of it. There's nothing behind it but the promise to say tough words later when the dust settles. (Not holding my breath for that, either.)

Maybe that's not really what he was saying - it just felt that way for some reason. I just feel empty. I admit I have a hard time listening to him, and I'll try to stomach it a second time...just not now.

107 FightingBack  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:21:24pm

re: buzzsawmonkey

I'm just hoping that we'll be able to get rid of the czar tissue.

Why aren't they called "commissars"?

108 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:21:51pm

re: #105 MarineVet

Yes, save our Navy for Iran.

109 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:21:53pm

re: #95 iceweasel

Cato, I think you misread quickjustice-- i believe he was making a *joke*, not claiming that Obama *actually* said that.

How amusing.

I could sit here and make up funny Bush and Cheney statements all night long and the Kossacks would take them as honest reportage as long as I put it in quotes.

110 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:12pm
111 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:13pm

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey


Like the energizer bunny they keep growing and growing.....big government demands oversight from the Executive branch with no interference from the "in the pocket" congress......

112 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:16pm

re: #85 iceweasel

I think he's walking a tightrope here and this was the best statement he can put out at this time, given that some protestors are worried that an explicit statement of support by Obama will lend credence to the government's claims that the opposition is (already) US led. That could stir up more anti-US sentiment and undermine any reform coalition--which already has factions that are anti-US.

I hate to agree, but I think you're correct. I wish it was different, but hopefully the people in Iran that can get real information know that the American people are behind them 100%.

I will be contacting my Congressman to add pressure that we should not be recognizing the Iranian regime.

113 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:17pm

re: #90 J.S.

Deposing Saddam Hussein was an entirely different matter (wholly different issue there)...that's Iraq. Does the U.S. really want a third war? This time with Iran? (imo, that's crazy talk).

I did not suggest going to war with Iran...certainly they are our ideological opponent and that should be clear to everyone worldwide

114 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:20pm

re: #44 Gus 802

Transcript here:

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

About half way down the page.

Obviously all of us have been watching the news from Iran. And I want to start off by being very clear that it is up to Iranians to make decisions about who Iran's leaders will be; that we respect Iranian sovereignty and want to avoid the United States being the issue inside of Iran, which sometimes the United States can be a handy political football -- or discussions with the United States.

Fair enough, however Iran under the Mullahs has been a locus of terror for 30 Years.

Having said all that, I am deeply troubled by the violence that I've been seeing on television. I think that the democratic process -- free speech, the ability of people to peacefully dissent -- all those are universal values and need to be respected. And whenever I see violence perpetrated on people who are peacefully dissenting, and whenever the American people see that, I think they're, rightfully, troubled.

Iran doesn't have a democratic process, when all avenue are exhausted what are a people to do, say aw shucks, violence never solves anything will just give up our dreams and continue to be slaves.

My understanding is, is that the Iranian government says that they are going to look into irregularities that have taken place. We weren’t on the ground, we did not have observers there, we did not have international observers on hand, so I can't state definitively one way or another what happened with respect to the election. But what I can say is that there appears to be a sense on the part of people who were so hopeful and so engaged and so committed to democracy who now feel betrayed. And I think it's important that, moving forward, whatever investigations take place are done in a way that is not resulting in bloodshed and is not resulting in people being stifled in expressing their views.

The elections are a fraud, and the fraudsters are looking into it. F'n brilliant.

Now, with respect to the United States and our interactions with Iran, I've always believed that as odious as I consider some of President Ahmadinejad's statements, as deep as the differences that exist between the United States and Iran on a range of core issues, that the use of tough, hard-headed diplomacy -- diplomacy with no illusions about Iran and the nature of the differences between our two countries -- is critical when it comes to pursuing a core set of our national security interests, specifically, making sure that we are not seeing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East triggered by Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon; making sure that Iran is not exporting terrorist activity. Those are core interests not just to the United States but I think to a peaceful world in general.

A truly democratic Iran would be much easier to work with, he still thinks he can charm the nukes right off Dinnerjacket.

We will continue to pursue a tough, direct dialogue between our two countries, and we'll see where it takes us. But even as we do so, I think it would be wrong for me to be silent about what we've seen on the television over the last few days. And what I would say to those people who put so much hope and energy and optimism into the political process, I would say to them that the world is watching and inspired by their participation, regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was. And they should know that the world is watching.

Regardless of outcome?

And particularly to the youth of Iran, I want them to know that we in the United States do not want to make any decisions for the Iranians, but we do believe that the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected.

Supporting freedom is not making decisions for them.

115 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:22pm

re: #103 unrealizedviewpoint

There's a squabble brewing Cato & quickjustice are gonna fight.

You get the popcorn, I'll get the protective gear.

116 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:23pm

MR. PRESIDENT

PLEASE VIEW SOME OF THE VIDEOS PROVIDED HERE ON LGF

CAN WE DEMAND SOME PRE-CONDITIONS NOW!?!?!?!?

117 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:37pm

re: #100 Sparkizzy

This guy can sound pompous saying "My carCzar broke down"


I had some fun with that. ;)

118 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:22:44pm

re: #109 Cato the Elder

How amusing.

I could sit here and make up funny Bush and Cheney statements all night long and the Kossacks would take them as honest reportage as long as I put it in quotes.

I just usually say "neener," works for me.

119 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:23:32pm

re: #108 Macker


Especially the submariners and their payloads of "firecrackers" Iran wants nukes we can say "here ya go, CATCH!"

120 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:23:37pm

re: #104 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(as a follow on my own post, re the statement) Yes.

After this is over, he SHOULD pull the plug on this kneejerk Carterian desire of his for "dialogue".

If a big crack down comes, and the death toll is high- we would be spitting on the graves of martyrs to engage in diplomacy with their killers.

121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:23:58pm

Outahere!

122 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:24:22pm

re: #107 FightingBack

Why aren't they called "commissars"?

Don't turn around, uh oh....

123 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:24:53pm

re: #73 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He did NOT say ... by the election itself.
I suggest going back and listening again.

I did listen as he weaseled his way around trying oh, so hard, not to show any sign of real support for anything other than the "sovereign government of Iran".

124 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:25:12pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

If a big crack down comes, and the death toll is high- we would be spitting on the graves of martyrs to engage in diplomacy with their killers.

Amen.

125 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:25:16pm

re: #6 Cato the Elder

If he had just said the magic words that McCain would have said, everything would be all better right now.

Is it just today, or are you having an attitude that I haven't noticed in such an impossible-to-ignore sort of way?

126 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:25:19pm

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

I'm just hoping that we'll be able to get rid of the czar tissue.

The heartbreak of czariasis?

127 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:25:35pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

If a big crack down comes, and the death toll is high- we would be spitting on the graves of martyrs to engage in diplomacy with their killers.

He wants what he is least capable of doing, dialoging, he can't even finish a sentence. I would really like to know if this idiot actually talks like he does to heads of states from other countries etc.

128 RememberSekhmet?  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:25:43pm

re: #57 J.S.

Well, imagine (obviously this is a time in the future -- and right now we don't know what will transpire), but just imagine that Iran melts down into a kind of civil war...Suppose further, that the U.S. takes a stand for one side, and suppose further that that side loses...What will happen to any further discussions with Iran? the U.S. would then be seen as an opponent of Iran. (No super power, such as the U.S., imo, should get engaged/embroiled in some internal, waring factions...good grief, do we in the West even know who's who or what's what over there? I don't think so. )

Ummm, since that little incident with the US Embassy in Tehran, we've been the opponent of Iran.

129 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:25:57pm

re: #114 jcm

Nice, don't you just love it when he said that?

My understanding is, is that the Iranian government says that they are going to look into irregularities that have taken place. We weren’t on the ground, we did not have observers there, we did not have international observers on hand, so I can't state definitively one way or another what happened with respect to the election.

"My understanding" denotes a passive voice. Then he plays a further passive role by stating that "we weren't on the ground." Then he admits readily, "I can't state definitively one way or another what happened with respect to the election."

Essentially "a shrug."

130 Yankee Division Son  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:26:07pm

I didn't think his statement was all that bad, although I wish he had said something over the past weekend, better late than never. I also wish it was a stronger statement, mostly in the "we support freedom and democracy" department.

131 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:26:07pm

A much more extensive collection of photos from the Iranian protests here:

[Link: cryptome.org...]

132 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:26:19pm

re: #125 Silvergirl

Is it just today, or are you having an attitude that I haven't noticed in such an impossible-to-ignore sort of way?

You haven't been paying close attention, have you? :)

133 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:26:25pm

re: #125 Silvergirl

Is it just today, or are you having an attitude that I haven't noticed in such an impossible-to-ignore sort of way?

Read my biography sometime.

Meanwhile, sail on...

134 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:26:47pm

re: #13 J.S.

I think Obama has spoken appropriately, given the circumstances. He can't be seen as taking sides, for fear of being accused of meddling in a foreign country's internal affairs, yet he still came out and expressed his dismay with respect to the violence going on against the peaceful demonstrators.

Dismay is too weak an emotion for times like these.

135 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:26:48pm

Which reminds me...hmmm big stink over Korea and "nuclear power" well look at them industrious starving people that 99% don't have power.....they are making good missiles that they can sell to Iran to bomb Israel (which is a good idea cause those dummies still will keep the Palestinians away for at least 100 years not too mention fall out in Syria and Egypt and all the radiation sickness mm mm Allah must be a happy deity)...... I really despise nuclear warfare it takes away from an otherwise satisfying rifle recoil....

136 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:26:54pm
137 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:27:00pm

re: #6 Cato the Elder

If he had just said the magic words that McCain would have said, everything would be all better right now.

Yes Cato, but did you get a tingle up your leg listening to Obama?

/

138 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:27:08pm

re: #125 Silvergirl

Is it just today, or are you having an attitude that I haven't noticed in such an impossible-to-ignore sort of way?

You weren't around yesterday, I take it !

139 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:27:27pm

re: #127 Walter L. Newton

He wants what he is least capable of doing, dialoging, he can't even finish a sentence. I would really like to know if this idiot actually talks like he does to heads of states from other countries etc.

like brown shoes with a black suit...the guy is utterly pitiful

140 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:27:37pm

re: #127 Walter L. Newton

He wants what he is least capable of doing, dialoging, he can't even finish a sentence. I would really like to know if this idiot actually talks like he does to heads of states from other countries etc.

I would think he was somewhat prepared for for this, and it was, at best...
lacking, I would hate to hear him winging it.

141 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:27:49pm

re: #106 capitalist piglet

Gus linked the transcript upthread so you don't have to watch the video if you'd rather not.
(I get bored with video no matter what politician is talking; I prefer to just read it myself.)
hope that helps.

142 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:28:11pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

Fooled ya! ;-)

143 summergurl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:28:53pm

re: #130 Yankee Division Son

I didn't think his statement was all that bad, although I wish he had said something over the past weekend, better late than never. I also wish it was a stronger statement, mostly in the "we support freedom and democracy" department.

That he actually made a statement is surprising, has he even said a word about NKorea in the last couple of days?

144 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:29:03pm

Well, it's about time he said something.
I consider it the bare minimum. Better than nothing. I think it's still insufficient (and look back at what I've written on the subject to see where I'm coming form).

145 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:29:06pm

Tweeters start fighting back:

RT Everyone change your location to Tehran! It will give the Iranian govt so many fake targets they'll overlook more real ones

[Link: twitter.com...]

146 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:29:29pm

"Diplomacy with no illusions.... is critical..."

147 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:29:44pm

re: #130 Yankee Division Son

I didn't think his statement was all that bad, although I wish he had said something over the past weekend, better late than never. I also wish it was a stronger statement, mostly in the "we support freedom and democracy" department.

It was firmly on the fence. He doesn't want to upset the Mullahs.

There are times to take a stand. This is one of them.

148 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:29:48pm

re: #142 quickjustice

Fooled ya! ;-)

Not. I didn't believe that was a real quote long enough for my toe to tingle.

;^)

149 Yankee Division Son  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:30:07pm

re: #143 summergurl

I agree, and not to my knowledge.

150 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:30:10pm

"Tough direct dialogue..."

151 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:30:47pm
152 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:30:52pm

"The world is watching..."

153 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:30:52pm

re: #147 jcm

It was firmly on the fence. He doesn't want to upset the Mullahs.

There are times to take a stand. This is one of them.

Bingo!

154 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:30:57pm

This speech today makes me thing the man is still "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:42pm EDT
By David Alexander

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama said on Friday he was hopeful the robust debate taking place in Iran's presidential election would advance his administration's efforts to engage longtime U.S. rival Tehran in new ways.

"We are excited to see what appears to be a robust debate taking place in Iran," Obama told reporters when asked about the Iranian election during an event at the White House.

"Whoever ends up winning the election in Iran, the fact there has been a robust debate hopefully will advance our ability to engage them in new ways," he said.

155 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:31:11pm

re: #112 Sharmuta

I hate to agree, but I think you're correct. I wish it was different, but hopefully the people in Iran that can get real information know that the American people are behind them 100%.

I will be contacting my Congressman to add pressure that we should not be recognizing the Iranian regime.

Yes, I think that's the best thing we can all do here to help, right now.

(although i guess twitter users could help out by distributing the proxies and helping out with the DDOS attacks they've co-ordinated to bring down govt websites, etc.--that's beyond my capabilities, I'm afraid!)

156 Sarcasmo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:31:17pm

re: Silvergirl
Indeed, I don't think dismay is the right word for the murder of unarmed protesters, outrage is a much more appropriate emotion.

157 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:31:24pm

re: #130 Yankee Division Son

I didn't think his statement was all that bad, although I wish he had said something over the past weekend, better late than never. I also wish it was a stronger statement, mostly in the "we support freedom and democracy" department.

It would be nice if he gave a speech that didn't convey weakness.

158 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:31:43pm

re: #132 Walter L. Newton

You haven't been paying close attention, have you? :)

Apparently not.

159 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:31:44pm

"We do believe that the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected..." ok...

160 RememberSekhmet?  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:32:04pm

re: #107 FightingBack

Why aren't they called "commissars"?

Der Kommisar!

161 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:32:08pm
162 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:32:21pm

re: #154 FurryOldGuyJeans

This speech today makes me thing the man is still "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:42pm EDT
By David Alexander

Followed by:

My understanding is, is that the Iranian government says that they are going to look into irregularities that have taken place.

163 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:32:26pm

re: #154 FurryOldGuyJeans

This speech today makes me thing think the man is still "excited" by Iran's robust election debate

Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:42pm EDT
By David Alexander

164 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:32:26pm

re: #147 jcm

It was firmly on the fence. He doesn't want to upset the Mullahs. There are times to take a stand. This is one of them.

And he could have taken a stand with out saying anything that would sound like he is trying to interfere. All he needed to do was repeat what freedom, democracy and open elections means.

165 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:32:36pm

re: #157 Wendya

It would be nice if he gave a speech that didn't convey weakness.

He's a Democrat fercryinoutloud.

166 summergurl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:32:38pm

re: #149 Yankee Division Son

And Kim Jong Dum-dum is practically having a hissy fit threatening to nuke someone if someone doesn't pay attention to him.

167 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:32:50pm

re: #159 jaunte

"We do believe that the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected..." ok...

They were heard, its the respected part dinner jacket will not abide.

168 jim in virginia  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:33:02pm

Some random thoughts-
1) how does the US walk the line between showing support for peoplelwho are being gunned down in the streets by thugs who stole an elction, while still not taking sides? The last thing the anti government demostators need is and excuse for the mullahs to tar them as American stooges.
Plus, whoever wins, Obama wants to work with. So he dare not offend anyone. (Yeah, I admit, cheap shot snark.)

2) If the mullahs really did bring in Hizbollah thugs, and proof gets out, things will get even nastier.
3) I think all the groups-the Army, the mullahs, Ahmadinejab, Moussavi- feel they are standing on the edge of a cliff. If they back down they lose. If they escalate they may still lose, but risk things falling apart very violently. And all sides really are pretty much alone. No one from outside can come in to mediate or to help. Scary time.

169 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:33:44pm

re: #151 buzzsawmonkey

Given that he thinks "the settlements" are at the root of the Israeli-Arab conflict, he's going to have a little problem with that "no illusions" thing.

This was part of his interview today:

On the Israeli side, that means a cessation of settlements. And there is a tendency to try to parse exactly what this means, but I think the parties on the ground understand that if you have a continuation of settlements that, in past agreements, have been categorized as illegal, that's going to be an impediment to progress. On the Palestinian side, whether it's the Palestinian Authority or other groups like Hamas that claim to speak for the Palestinians, a recognition of the Quartet principles, ensuring that there's a recognition of Israel's right to exist, making sure that past agreements are abided to, that there's an end to incitement against Israel and an end to violence against Israel. Those are necessary pillars of any serious agreement that's to be reached.

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

170 Yankee Division Son  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:33:56pm

re: #147 jcm

Totally agree. He could have said a lot more without stepping over the perceived line of interfering in a sovereign nation's elections.

171 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:34:33pm

re: #145 Sharmuta

Tweeters start fighting back:

[Link: twitter.com...]

Have you figured out what the "RT" means?

172 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:34:46pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

And he could have taken a stand with out saying anything that would sound like he is trying to interfere. All he needed to do was repeat what freedom, democracy and open elections means.

DING!

173 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:34:48pm

Gunfire in Tehran

174 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:35:01pm

re: #147 jcm

It was firmly on the fence. He doesn't want to upset the Mullahs.

There are times to take a stand. This is one of them.

I agree. I miss Reagan.
That said, my prior "well done" still stands.
Put bluntly, I didn't expect it to be as good as it was.
In the context of Obama, it rates a "well done".

/damning with faint praise, in a certain sense ... kind of like affirming that your toddler made it to the potty in time.

175 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:35:01pm

Dear Mr. President,

With all due respect, our country is founded on the tenant that freedom is an inalienable right. Statements should be made with this concept taken to heart. At times this will cause evil dictators to not enjoy dialoging with us. A true leader will not let this bother him. A true leader will go forward doing what is right, not what is easy.

Very truly yours,

AW

176 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:35:13pm

re: #147 jcm

It was firmly on the fence. He doesn't want to upset the Mullahs.

There are times to take a stand. This is one of them.

OK.

Let's have it.

Your "stand", please, in 50 words or less.

And what you would back it up with if things don't go your way.

You're the president in this thought experiment. Bring it.

177 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:35:15pm

re: #146 jaunte

"Diplomacy with no illusions.... is critical..."

Why do I get the feeling he's still retaining illusions, though?

178 Yankee Division Son  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:35:21pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

And he could have taken a stand with out saying anything that would sound like he is trying to interfere. All he needed to do was repeat what freedom, democracy and open elections means.

Here here. Very well said.

179 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:35:47pm

OT ,,,,, as bad as the situation is in Iran right now, please let us not forget that there are 2 young ladies sentenced to HARD LABOR in North Korea. If WHEN you contact your senators and congressman about the situation in Iran, I implore you to include a paragraph DEMANDING the US do something about those 2 ladies

180 summergurl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:35:52pm

re: #165 LGoPs

He's a Democrat fercryinoutloud.


He's like the kid in school thinking that if you bring a candy bar every day for the bully he'll let you keep your lunch.

Yeah right//

181 sadhu  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:36:00pm

re: #171 reine.de.tout

Have you figured out what the "RT" means?

RT = retweet

182 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:36:18pm

re: #168 jim in virginia

Some random thoughts-
1) how does the US walk the line between showing support for peoplelwho are being gunned down in the streets by thugs who stole an elction, while still not taking sides? The last thing the anti government demostators need is and excuse for the mullahs to tar them as American stooges.
Plus, whoever wins, Obama wants to work with. So he dare not offend anyone. (Yeah, I admit, cheap shot snark.)

2) If the mullahs really did bring in Hizbollah thugs, and proof gets out, things will get even nastier.
3) I think all the groups-the Army, the mullahs, Ahmadinejab, Moussavi- feel they are standing on the edge of a cliff. If they back down they lose. If they escalate they may still lose, but risk things falling apart very violently. And all sides really are pretty much alone. No one from outside can come in to mediate or to help. Scary time.

The mullahs have been tarring them as American stooges from square one, a few days ago. No one in the west had to show ANY support for the protests, and we are still being blamed for it.

Obama may as well make good use of the situation, but why would he, he's been fucking apologizing to the whole world for us.

No, this is a black and white situation, one which Obama has no sense of color.

183 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:36:22pm

re: #143 summergurl

Give him time. He's new at this you know.

///////

184 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:36:43pm

re: #168 jim in virginia

Yes that is true.....but if they do have nukes this would be a good time for Hezbollah to take them back to Syria and get them into Lebanon....

185 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:36:56pm

More video from Shiraz

186 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:05pm

It's at times like this that I am glad I am not President. Thankfully it is above my pay grade. Unfortunately I don't have all that much confidence in the man now in the job. I wish I did, he is my Commander in Chief after all. But I don't think a man who was a State Legislator just 5 or so years ago and who spent the last 3 campaigning has the experience or temperament for this position or a situation like this. But here we are? This might be a good time to start praying or drinking or both.

187 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:11pm

re: #181 sadhu

RT = retweet

Bawney Fwanks is running the military now?

188 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:13pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

Read my biography sometime.

Meanwhile, sail on...

Is it for sale at Amazon?

189 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:30pm
190 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:31pm

re: #147 jcm

It was firmly on the fence. He doesn't want to upset the Mullahs.

There are times to take a stand. This is one of them.

Another Obama On The Other Hand™ moment.

191 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:36pm

re: #177 Sharmuta

I understand he has to be careful, but that speech could have been given yesterday, or last Wednesday, or last year.

192 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:44pm

re: #175 ArmyWife

Dear Mr. President,

With all due respect, our country is founded on the tenant that freedom is an inalienable right. Statements should be made with this concept taken to heart. At times this will cause evil dictators to not enjoy dialoging with us. A true leader will not let this bother him. A true leader will go forward doing what is right, not what is easy.

Very truly yours,

AW

Before Cato gets to you - perhaps you meant "tenet" not "tenant".

193 songbird  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:49pm

re: #145 Sharmuta

Tweeters start fighting back:

[Link: twitter.com...]

Done!

194 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:56pm

re: #188 Silvergirl

Is it for sale at Amazon?

Yes,,,, look under CURE FOR INSOMNIA

195 morning star  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:37:58pm

He sounded like when he was confronted with the Reverend Wright videos.

196 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:05pm

re: #181 sadhu

RT = retweet

THANKS.

197 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:12pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

OK. Let's have it. Your "stand", please, in 50 words or less. And what you would back it up with if things don't go your way.
You're the president in this thought experiment. Bring it.

All he needed to do was repeat what freedom, democracy and open elections means.

198 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:23pm

re: #188 Silvergirl

Is it for sale at Amazon?

makes decent toilet paper I hear

199 right_on_target  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:25pm

re: #141 iceweasel

Gus linked the transcript upthread so you don't have to watch the video if you'd rather not.
(I get bored with video no matter what politician is talking; I prefer to just read it myself.)
hope that helps.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many of his transcripts would read like legal depositions, full of uh ... uh ......um....... if they were true.
That's why I like to see the actual film or video.

200 summergurl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:29pm

re: #183 ArmyWife
I wonder if he started smoking again ? This is much more than he bargained for - you know with his pay grade and all.

///

201 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:30pm

Maybe he can get Letterman's writers to spice up any follow up.............

202 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:33pm

re: #183 ArmyWife

Give him time. He's new at this you know.

///////

But, I heard ready to lead from day one. hopey changey.
///

203 JustABill  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:55pm

You know, the prez had to be weaselly today. Since any explicit support for the protesters would be counterproductive. Good thing we have a prez who is experienced in talking like a weasel...

204 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:38:59pm

re: #175 ArmyWife

Dear Mr. President,

With all due respect, our country is founded on the tenant that freedom is an inalienable right. Statements should be made with this concept taken to heart. At times this will cause evil dictators to not enjoy dialoging with us. A true leader will not let this bother him. A true leader will go forward doing what is right, not what is easy.

Very truly yours,

AW

I used to rent to tenants, but I never founded anything on them other than a lease.

Tenet.

And so let's hear your sample statement, based on whatever tenets you choose. Just like I asked of JCM.

Then pray be so good as to say what you would back it up with. What would you be willing to do? How many divisions are you going to ante up?

Inquiring armchair generals want to know.

205 yochanan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:39:00pm

re: #182 Walter L. Newton

if the mullahs fall HEZBALLAH can kiss there iranian support good bye

206 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:39:11pm

re: #190 capitalist piglet

Another Obama On The Other Hand™ moment.

207 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:39:26pm

re: #192 reine.de.tout

Before Cato gets to you - perhaps you meant "tenet" not "tenant".

Quick, quick, hid, Cato is going to see that mistake.

208 American Sabra  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:39:43pm

I'm with J.S.

We're not "recognizing the regime" if we say they have to carry out their own elections. I mean, that's true. They have to. And yes, it is a democracy. It's a democratic process the Iranians did. Unfortunately, it was rigged by a bunch of thugs, putting it nicely. At any rate, we can't interfere in that process and there's little we can do directly with Iran now. They have a lot (majority?) of young people there, 20-30's. Civil war? Leave the country? Both good ideas.

Anyway, Obama was dead on. He let those young people know that we're watching and we get it. We do and we support them, but we're not their saviours either.

209 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:39:56pm

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

All he needed to do was repeat what freedom, democracy and open elections means.

But he didn't ask YOU. Now you went and spoiled his snark attack.

210 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:39:59pm

Video from Tabriz

211 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:40:11pm

re: #186 Nevergiveup

It's at times like this that I am glad I am not President. Thankfully it is above my pay grade. Unfortunately I don't have all that much confidence in the man now in the job. I wish I did, he is my Commander in Chief after all. But I don't think a man who was a State Legislator just 5 or so years ago and who spent the last 3 campaigning has the experience or temperament for this position or a situation like this. But here we are? This might be a good time to start praying or drinking or both.

Or building a fallout shelter.......

212 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:40:12pm

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

All he needed to do was repeat what freedom, democracy and open elections means.

Rinse and repeat. Backed up with what?

213 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:40:26pm

re: #205 yochanan

if the mullahs fall HEZBALLAH can kiss there iranian support good bye

A silver lining indeed! :D

214 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:40:27pm

re: #192 reine.de.tout

Yes! Just so Cato knows, I have an awesome admin for my ad hoc correspondence. Funny thing is, I can edit other people's work quite well - and my normal work product goes out without issue. Its just posting here, after a glass of wine, that causes a few grammatical snafus!

Thank you, though, for understanding my quirk.

215 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:40:37pm

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Quick, quick, hid, Cato is going to see that mistake.

too late
He saw it.

216 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:40:58pm

re: #179 sattv4u2


Unfortunatley there is only one country that can get them out fast and safe and that is China! If, they in fact were "captured" in China then there needs to be a stern response by China. If, they were caught in North Korea then I feel sympathy for their families but as good journalists they knew what would happen if caught. He is a thug that needs to be removed and holds these women as shields or just out of his sadistic pleasure......

217 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:41:21pm

re: #204 Cato the Elder

See my above post. Thank you for being my editor. I need one!

218 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:41:37pm

Tehran is not the only city with rivers of people flowing. Wonderful!

219 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:41:40pm

re: #204 Cato the Elder

I used to rent to tenants, but I never founded anything on them other than a lease.

Tenet.

And so let's hear your sample statement, based on whatever tenets you choose. Just like I asked of JCM.

Then pray be so good as to say what you would back it up with. What would you be willing to do? How many divisions are you going to ante up?

Inquiring armchair generals want to know.

and you call us 'shit pickers'!....hahaha...leaping from a wisely chosen statement to sending divisions?...say something else

220 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:41:46pm

re: #21 albusteve

why can't he take the side of freedom and liberty?....that's not meddling, it should be a universal ideology that he never wavers from, no matter who or what

Because that would be nothing but counterproductive.

A statement of support from the U.S. Government is the last thing anyone in Iran needs. It would serve only to make their protests looks less home grown, and less legitimate.

221 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:41:59pm

re: #103 unrealizedviewpoint

If I can fool Cato, I'm ready for my Obama parody on Saturday Night Live! ;-)

Obama: "On the one hand, Cato is a fool. On the other hand, Cato is a man of infinite wisdom and experience, whose many pearls of wisdom trip off his tongue like rivers of golden honey!"

Make your choice, lizards. Or-- don't! ;-)

222 sadhu  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:42:02pm

WAY WAY more action on the streets than when they ran the Shah out

223 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:42:08pm

re: #208 American Sabra

I'm with J.S.

We're not "recognizing the regime" if we say they have to carry out their own elections. I mean, that's true. They have to. And yes, it is a democracy. It's a democratic process the Iranians did. Unfortunately, it was rigged by a bunch of thugs, putting it nicely. At any rate, we can't interfere in that process and there's little we can do directly with Iran now. They have a lot (majority?) of young people there, 20-30's. Civil war? Leave the country? Both good ideas.

Anyway, Obama was dead on. He let those young people know that we're watching and we get it. We do and we support them, but we're not their saviours either.

Precisely.

Yes, he could have done it better, and he could have gone farther, but he DID get the essential point across ... in (gah) diplomatic language.

224 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:42:11pm

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

I won't lose sleep. You guys love me warts and all, right? RIGHT? ;)

225 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:42:14pm

re: #192 reine.de.tout

Before Cato gets to you - perhaps you meant "tenet" not "tenant".

I have a big tenet. It sleeps four.
/ :)

226 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:42:27pm

re: #204 Cato the Elder

Marcus Porcius Cato (Latin: M·PORCIVS·M·F·CATO[1]) (234 BC, Tusculum–149 BC) was a Roman statesman, surnamed the Censor (Censorius), the Wise (Sapiens), the Ancient (Priscus), or the Elder (Maior), to distinguish him from Cato the Younger who was just a pompous asshole.

Runs in the family I guess.

227 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:43:05pm

re: #224 ArmyWife

I won't lose sleep. You guys love me warts and all, right? RIGHT? ;)

I do.
Sorry I wasn't in time to save you.

228 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:43:05pm

re: #204 Cato the Elder

I used to rent to tenants, but I never founded anything on them other than a lease.

Tenet.

And so let's hear your sample statement, based on whatever tenets you choose. Just like I asked of JCM.

Then pray be so good as to say what you would back it up with. What would you be willing to do? How many divisions are you going to ante up?

Inquiring armchair generals want to know.

tsk tsk ,, ending a sentence with a preposition!

229 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:43:45pm

re: #212 Cato the Elder

Rinse and repeat. Backed up with what?

conviction that we will not deal with an oppressive, murderous regime...pretty simple unless you are BO or one of his enlightened supporters

230 summergurl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:43:49pm

re: #210 Sharmuta


That is some video Sharmuta. Did you know there was such a ground swell of opposition to him? I have never seen it reported other than a comment here or there, obviously this was under reported or under estimated. It appears the people of Iran have awoken. I wonder what Israel makes of this? Thank you for linking to this video.

231 kansas  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:44:07pm

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

This man is so lacking. If you listened to that video, he is totally incapable of forming thoughts and communicating without a prepared speech and his teleprompter.

It doesn't take someone or something special to do that. Look at the comments here on LGF. Charles puts up a thread, we get into a conversation and we are forming whole paragraphs, communicating our ideas with each other. It's not hard.

But listen to him, it takes him over 4 minutes to get across two or three simple points. He stumbles, he mumbles, he has no style or vocal patterns that would engender interest of belief in what he is saying.

It almost hurts to try to listen to him finish a thought.

My suspicion is that examination of Obama's college transcripts, articles and papers he has written without speech writers, and any assessments made in real time by his professors, would go a long way in explaining what you are observing in him now.

232 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:44:24pm

re: #225 LGoPs

I have a big tenet. It sleeps four.
/ :)

When I wake up in the morning It always looks like I'm sleeping in a tenet cause I........................um.................uh................nevermind!

233 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:44:45pm

re: #216 MarineVet

Unfortunatley there is only one country that can get them out fast and safe and that is China! If, they in fact were "captured" in China then there needs to be a stern response by China. If, they were caught in North Korea then I feel sympathy for their families but as good journalists they knew what would happen if caught. He is a thug that needs to be removed and holds these women as shields or just out of his sadistic pleasure......

I agree re: China

"Hello,,,, China,,, yeah ,, you know all those bonds of ours you're holding! Well ,, tell you what. They won;t be worth the paper their written on unless you put the squeez on that raving loon!"

234 snowcrash  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:44:58pm

re: #226 Walter L. Newton
Thanks Walter, I thought Cato was the Green Hornets chauffeur/sidekick.

235 wiffersnapper  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:45:08pm

"Just words"

236 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:45:11pm

President Obama's statement on events in Iran will be spun by the hardliners in any direction they need to spin it. He might as well say something positive about wise governments listening to the voice of the people. If he believes in that.

237 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:45:19pm

re: #220 Hawaii69

Because that would be nothing but counterproductive.

A statement of support from the U.S. Government is the last thing anyone in Iran needs. It would serve only to make their protests looks less home grown, and less legitimate.

I disagree...any rube can see that their unrest is legitimate regardless of what anyone else says

238 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:45:32pm

re: #77 experiencedtraveller

Attorney Generals of various departments have some protections, including 30 days notice and an explanation to Congress to help prevent corruption/politics etc.

You are correct that regular U.S. Attorneys do serve at the whim of the POTUS, unless of course it is a Republican POTUS...

239 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:45:35pm

re: #204 Cato the Elder

I used to rent to tenants, but I never founded anything on them other than a lease.

Tenet.

And so let's hear your sample statement, based on whatever tenets you choose. Just like I asked of JCM.

Then pray be so good as to say what you would back it up with. What would you be willing to do? How many divisions are you going to ante up?

Inquiring armchair generals want to know.

I would say that America is a friend to freedom and democracy everywhere. To those who would quash it or suppress it, not so.
Amd I would use tenet in lieu of tenant, sergeant.

240 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:46:00pm

re: #225 LGoPs

I have a big tenet. It sleeps four.
/ :)

Four normal-sized people.

I like Twinkies. Somebody's getting bumped.

241 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:46:02pm

re: #148 Cato the Elder

That lying Cato! I mean he just DENIES having gone for it hook, line, and sinker! ;-)

242 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:46:18pm

re: #226 Walter L. Newton

Marcus Porcius Cato (Latin: M·PORCIVS·M·F·CATO[1]) (234 BC, Tusculum–149 BC) was a Roman statesman, surnamed the Censor (Censorius), the Wise (Sapiens), the Ancient (Priscus), or the Elder (Maior), to distinguish him from Cato the Younger who was just a pompous asshole.

Runs in the family I guess.

maybe he was adopted?

243 Sarcasmo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:46:24pm

re: sattv4u2

I know this wasn't directed at me, but how about we back it up by not recognizing dinner jackets regime until real, fair, and honest reveiw of the election results by an outside source?

244 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:46:27pm

Amd = and for the typo obsessed.
:)

245 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:01pm

re: #234 snowcrash

Thanks Walter, I thought Cato was the Green Hornets chauffeur/sidekick.

LOL

246 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:02pm

re: #230 summergurl

I'm just following in the footsteps of others and keeping an eye on twitter. I'm glad to see videos from areas outside Tehran as it shows this is not centralized to one city, and that's important.

247 callahan23  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:07pm

Is late to me. Hence I will be leaving this superb place of reasoned discussion for the night.
Love you (Lizards} - mostly.

248 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:21pm

re: #83 buzzsawmonkey

"Pleasure," not "leisure."

Thanks all for the correction and confirmations. I cross-threaded some Aristotle...

Leisure is a necessity both for growth in goodness and for the pusuit of political activity.

249 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:23pm

re: #243 Sarcasmo

I know this wasn't directed at me, but how about we back it up by not recognizing dinner jackets regime until real, fair, and honest reveiw of the election results by an outside source?

Your post hit me. I think you should have aimed for Cato, though

250 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:26pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

OK.

Let's have it.

Your "stand", please, in 50 words or less.

And what you would back it up with if things don't go your way.

The United States has and will support anyone seeking the inalienable right to freedom and self determination.

What I'd do to back it up? Right now it's up to the people of Iran, arms and technical support for certain.

The outcome is up to the people of Iran.

Parsing the middle to keep dialogue open with evil men when others are dying for freedom is wrong.

251 BignJames  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:32pm

re: #238 anotherindyfilmguy

Attorney Generals of various departments have some protections, including 30 days notice and an explanation to Congress to help prevent corruption/politics etc.

You are correct that regular U.S. Attorneys do serve at the whim of the POTUS, unless of course it is a Republican POTUS...


I think that's "Inspectors General"

252 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:39pm

re: #244 LGoPs

Amd = and for the typo obsessed.
:)

Watch out, or Cato will condescend all over you!

253 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:47:52pm

re: #231 kansas

My suspicion is that examination of Obama's college transcripts, articles and papers he has written without speech writers, and any assessments made in real time by his professors, would go a long way in explaining what you are observing in him now.

A blank slate, so to speak, covering up for a blank mind.

254 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:48:08pm

re: #244 LGoPs

Amd = and for the typo obsessed. ({cough}cato{cough})
:)


ftfy

255 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:48:23pm

I get the impression (from some here -- not all) that the Mousavi protesters are all somehow little Jeffersonian democrats standing up against their "oppressors." (like some reenactment of the American Revolution of 1776). And, if they get shot, they become "martyrs." (I really, really don't see it this way...Mousavi and his supporters are not, repeat not, Jeffersonian democrats. and to paint the situation in these terms, yes, it can be easily projected like that from an American perspective -- stark blacks and whites -- but, it may not accurately capture the "reality," on the groun in Iran.) I think Ajami's "take" (interpretation) was far more accurate and discerning...(I'll have to dig up the transcript tomorrow..)

256 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:48:35pm

re: #188 Silvergirl

Is it for sale at Amazon?

Yes.

Not exactly priced to sell, though. But if you click through from here, Charles gets a percentage.

257 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:48:35pm

re: #251 BignJames

I think you are correct about the title etc and if I recall that is what the whole hullabaloo is about...

258 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:48:41pm

re: #243 Sarcasmo

I know this wasn't directed at me, but how about we back it up by not recognizing dinner jackets regime until real, fair, and honest reveiw of the election results by an outside source?

Well WE don't have relations with the Iranians as it is. Maybe we should put them on double secret probation?
/

259 BignJames  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:48:55pm

re: #243 Sarcasmo

I know this wasn't directed at me, but how about we back it up by not recognizing dinner jackets regime until real, fair, and honest reveiw of the election results by an outside source?


Ok...we'll send Jimmy Carter.....he's got experience.

260 Sarcasmo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:49:14pm

re: sattv4u2
Sorry doing this via I phone is not easy, was meant for Cato :)

261 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:49:44pm

re: #260 Sarcasmo

Sorry doing this via I phone is not easy, was meant for Cato :)

no problemo

262 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:49:46pm

re: #259 BignJames

Ok...we'll send Jimmy Carter.....he's got experience.

I hope he has Hemorrhoids.

263 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:50:03pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

You will never get my support unless you change your opinion on the Repeal of the Oppian Law.

/.02

264 twincitiesgirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:50:24pm

Well, I feel better now, having heard both sides of the issue from Barry...
///////

say again?

265 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:50:30pm

re: #258 Nevergiveup

Well WE don't have relations with the Iranians as it is. Maybe we should put them on double secret probation?
/

TOGA!

266 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:50:43pm

re: #204 Cato the Elder

IHow many divisions are you going to ante up?

Inquiring armchair generals want to know.

Firstly, I'm not President for a reason. Secondly, I'm married to a 1SG, you know, the one that does the work. Thirdly, if my husband is called upon for something such as this, I will proudly kiss him goodbye, just as I did in the first Iraq conflict, in Afghanistan a few times, and 3 times in the current Iraqi conflict. It isn't nameless, faceless troops I pretend to send; it is the father of my children and the love of my life.

PS apologies to my COL father and Granddaddy for the slight on officers.

PPS - edit away!

267 songbird  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:51:42pm

re: #259 BignJames

Ok...we'll send Jimmy Carter.....he's got experience.

you forgot the sarc tag.

268 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:51:42pm

re: #266 ArmyWife

Firstly, I'm not President for a reason. Secondly, I'm married to a 1SG, you know, the one that does the work. Thirdly, if my husband is called upon for something such as this, I will proudly kiss him goodbye, just as I did in the first Iraq conflict, in Afghanistan a few times, and 3 times in the current Iraqi conflict. It isn't nameless, faceless troops I pretend to send; it is the father of my children and the love of my life.

PS apologies to my COL father and Granddaddy for the slight on officers.

PPS - edit away!

A gazillion updings!

269 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:51:55pm

re: #263 experiencedtraveller

You will never get my support unless you change your opinion on the Repeal of the Oppian Law.

/.02

And heavens, stop repeating yourself repeating : "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam."

You know, they destroyed Carthage just so they didn't have to listen to you repeat that after every damn little thing you ever said on the Senate floor.

270 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:52:04pm

re: #266 ArmyWife

Firstly, I'm not President for a reason. Secondly, I'm married to a 1SG, you know, the one that does the work. Thirdly, if my husband is called upon for something such as this, I will proudly kiss him goodbye, just as I did in the first Iraq conflict, in Afghanistan a few times, and 3 times in the current Iraqi conflict. It isn't nameless, faceless troops I pretend to send; it is the father of my children and the love of my life.

PS apologies to my COL father and Granddaddy for the slight on officers.

PPS - edit away!

Hooah. My kindest regards to you and your husband for your service and dedication to this great country.
*bows*

271 yochanan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:52:14pm

Nach Berichten des Senders "Voice of America" sollen bis zu 5000 libanesische Kämpfer der Hisbollah-Miliz dem Regime beim Showdown zur Hand gehen

272 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:52:29pm

there is something so off putting abt. o' nuanced platitudes.
the way he deigns to know that saying meaningless drivel is appropriate in this serious situation.
i don't trust o to know what is best in any situation.
he does not project competence or strength.
i don't know what mccain would be saying now, but i do know the mullahs would have a lot more respect for him than they do for the indecisive prince of nuance, who was able to pull together, however, this concise statement: his pledge to "fight against the negative stereotypes of islam where ever they appear."
LOL

why can't o look at the horror that is actually being committed all over the world in the name of islam. he did not address this in his cairo speech.
the man can not see islam for what it is.
people are going to suffer because he has an unhealthy fixation w/ islam and is dangerously deluded.
it is happening now.

273 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:52:33pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

Yes.

Not exactly priced to sell, though. But if you click through from here, Charles gets a percentage.

Pricey tome, indeed. I'll pass. Regrets about the percentage to Charles. When I finally get the Kindle, he'll get a kickback from that.

274 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:53:06pm

[Link: twitter.com...]

Just in,Cyrusnews reports of rumors; 16 IRCG commanders arrested after trying to persuade elements in the Army to join ppl #irancalender
275 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:53:10pm

re: #266 ArmyWife

Great!

276 BignJames  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:53:40pm

re: #267 songbird

you forgot the sarc tag.


For this admin.......I was being serious.

277 American Sabra  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:53:41pm

re: #255 J.S.

I get the impression (from some here -- not all) that the Mousavi protesters are all somehow little Jeffersonian democrats standing up against their "oppressors." (like some reenactment of the American Revolution of 1776). And, if they get shot, they become "martyrs." (I really, really don't see it this way...Mousavi and his supporters are not, repeat not, Jeffersonian democrats. and to paint the situation in these terms, yes, it can be easily projected like that from an American perspective -- stark blacks and whites -- but, it may not accurately capture the "reality," on the groun in Iran.) I think Ajami's "take" (interpretation) was far more accurate and discerning...(I'll have to dig up the transcript tomorrow..)

I'm not sure I follow you. How do you see them?

278 kansas  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:53:47pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

OK.

Let's have it.

Your "stand", please, in 50 words or less.

And what you would back it up with if things don't go your way.

You're the president in this thought experiment. Bring it.

Please refer to Army wife #175. Ironic juxtaposition I'd say.

279 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:53:50pm
280 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:54:16pm

re: #271 yochanan

Speigel quotes VOA "5000 Hezbollah fighters assisting Iranian police in the suppression"

281 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:54:39pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

[Link: twitter.com...]

If that's true - WOW!

282 Blacklake  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:54:47pm

Personally, I'm just relieved he didn't find a way to work another apology into that. Neo-fascist or not, I don't know what else he's going to say (except maybe the same thing, only much, much shorter...). It's not like we're going to unleash the cruise missiles, regardless of the administration. (He might've been a little less emphatic about "peaceful" demonstrations, I suppose--I've seen photos of a lot of stuff on fire over there.)

Iran just isn't under our control. My greatest hope is simply that Obama hasn't been taking notes on how it's done for 2012...

283 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:54:50pm

re: #268 unrealizedviewpoint

And I was only gonna give her 10,000....

284 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:55:06pm

re: #280 Killgore Trout

Ah, the modern version of the Ukrainians.

285 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:55:08pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

[Link: twitter.com...]

This is wnat I predicted earlier. Some of these 'police" and "secirity forces" and "guards" are going to start looking in the crowds and say

"hey ,,, thats my brother/sister/uncle/cousin over there. I will NOT shoot. I will NOT swing a club."

286 hazzyday  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:55:09pm

Some Persian wisdom from link at tehranlive.org

An angry man is again angry with himself when he returns to reason.

“We Learn . . .
10% of what we read
20% of what we hear
30% of what we see
50% of what we see and hear
70% of what we discuss
80% of what we experience
95% of what we teach others.”

I see Persians who are agnostic, some are very religious, pleas for help in overcoming oppression. A lot of regular people trapped by a religious minority.

287 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:55:29pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

[Link: twitter.com...]

From that same feed - link to a gang of photos - many we've seen already, many we haven't.

288 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:55:45pm

re: #269 Walter L. Newton

Tho, in all fairness, anyone trusted by Fabius Maximus deserves the benefit of the doubt...

289 songbird  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:55:46pm

re: #271 yochanan

Nach Berichten des Senders "Voice of America" sollen bis zu 5000 libanesische Kämpfer der Hisbollah-Miliz dem Regime beim Showdown zur Hand gehen

Mensch! 5000 Kampfer! Das is wahnsinnig! Gott hilfe die Iranische Volk!

290 Kilroy  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:03pm

It seems there's still an "Axis of Evil".

291 MarineVet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:09pm

re: #233 sattv4u2

hahaha great point there....but of course our Fed is making them worthless everytime our "leadership" speaks doom and gloom

292 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:12pm

Then he went and had a meeting on how to get Bibi out of office........

293 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:14pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

Could be huge if the army breaks away from mullah control. I think this has gone on long enough now to show that the mullahs control is actually fairly weak. They should have put this down for good a day or two ago.

294 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:17pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

[Link: twitter.com...]

Pasdaran?!?!
I wanna see corroborating evidence.

295 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:23pm

re: #250 jcm

The United States has and will support anyone seeking the inalienable right to freedom and self determination.

What I'd do to back it up? Right now it's up to the people of Iran, arms and technical support for certain.

The outcome is up to the people of Iran.

Parsing the middle to keep dialogue open with evil men when others are dying for freedom is wrong.

I assume that first sentence would be your statement as president.

Arms and technical support when? Tomorrow? Logistics?

"The outcome is up to the people of Iran." That's pretty much what Obama said, isn't it?

And yeah, we've always stood up for "anyone seeking the inalienable right to freedom and self determination". Except for when those people were fighting one of "our" dictators, like, oh, I don't know, Saddam when he was our butt-buddy?

If I were on the streets of Iran right now I'd be hoping for no bold statements from the United States of Amnesia.

296 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:27pm

Gunman Arrested?
I don't think it's the same guy but we've seen a few reports that the protesters are "arresting" cops and militia. I wouldn't be surprised if they did capture some people this afternoon.

297 HelloDare  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:28pm

Obama was obviously out of teleprompter range.
He needs a pair of these video glasses.

298 bkgodfrey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:34pm

re: #10 buzzsawmonkey

When will he get around to respecting the U.S.'?

299 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:38pm

Obama did not make any sense. None.

...Oreo snorts, "zzzzzzzzzzzz"(really).

300 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:56:57pm

look left, uh, look right, uh, look left, uh, look right, uh.

That about sums up every Obama speech

301 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:10pm

re: #292 Ben Hur

Then he went and had a meeting on how to get Bibi out of office........

I wish we had Bibi as our president.

302 big steve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:12pm

Is Obama growing a mustache?

303 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:18pm

What Obama lacks in smarts, he makes up for in self esteem. Always a dangerous combination.

304 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:23pm

re: #283 Macker

And I was only gonna give her 10,000....

Cato's upding is noticeably missing from ArmyWife's comment. ahh. Mr. Cato?

305 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:30pm

re: #208 American Sabra

We haven't had diplomatic relations with the Iranian regime since they kidnapped and tortured our diplomats back in 1979. The Iranian Embassy sits vacant in D.C. as a consequence.

Obama could recite this long and sordid history of the Iranian regime's injuries to America and Israel since 1979 without blinking an eye. Then he could recite Iranian attacks on our soldiers in Iraq directly and by proxy. After that, he could discuss Hezbollah's terrorism, financed by the Iranians. And of course, Iran's support for Syria's disgusting regime. He could tell the truth about Iran's sordid recent history in international affairs, and then conclude with, "And now, this monstrous regime has turned on its own people." But he won't.

Instead, he'll spout platitudinous B.S.

306 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:33pm

re: #277 American Sabra

There have been a number of reports about Mousavi (what he represents, who he is, where he's coming from, etc., etc.) -- see MEMRI's article on Iran"s Elections (part 2 is particularly informative), then there's Ajami's (devastating?) analysis -- in part, Ajami warned tonight, on Lou Dobbs show, about making serious misreadings of history...I'll get the transcript tomorrow..

307 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:33pm

re: #296 Killgore Trout

Gunman Arrested?
I don't think it's the same guy but we've seen a few reports that the protesters are "arresting" cops and militia. I wouldn't be surprised if they did capture some people this afternoon.

They're not afraid anymore.

308 hazzyday  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:36pm

I think in this type of situation the best thing to do is to give the protesters a lot of bandwidth in all media types.

309 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:46pm

re: #281 VegasRick

Even if the story of the arrests aren't true in this case. I think it's a pretty safe bet that people are talking to the army to see which way they're going to go.

310 Drider  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:47pm

Obama's silence on Iran is simply unadulterated cowardice.

Cowardice to not speak out for what is decent and right for the pathetic reason that it he sees no political gain in it.

Cowardice because he is Hell bent on making comparisons between our government and Iran's, and cannot make adjustments on his errors on the fly to match the false, picture he tries to paint for the World.

Cowardice because he sits in his ivory tower, sees people yearning for some better sense of freedom that will now be crushed out of them.

Obama is afforded the luxury of sitting back, silently supporting a new breed of Totalitarian Iranian government that will soon emerge once the foreign press has been banned from Iran.

No doubt feeling that he has something that he can "deal with".

I think as the days roll by it becomes apparent that our government is morphing into something much more than anyone bargained for, much more than stimulus bills that don't stimulate, more than the Nationalization of private companies, much more than Czar's seemingly on every corner, more than terrorists being sent to paradise......on Earth, on our dime and against our allies wishes.
It's more than our very own President completely breaking the law to fire an Inspector General who did the job asked of him.
It's more than bald faced lies to get the public options for health care which is obviously meant to destroy private competition and leave Americans with rationed health care via the government.

It has to be more than many people had hoped for when they voted in this coward and come Hell or high poll numbers, there needs to be a clear shift in our direction, starting in 2010.Let us hope.

311 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:57:49pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

Could be huge if the army breaks away from mullah control. I think this has gone on long enough now to show that the mullahs control is actually fairly weak. They should have put this down for good a day or two ago.

The important thing is if the citizens can make inroads to the Revolutionary Guard, as per my 285.

The army is not nearly as powerful nor well equipped as the RG is

312 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:58:02pm

re: #295 Cato the Elder

Just send your inflated ego and attitude, you'd flatten the entire country.

And that is all I am saying on the subject.

313 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:58:23pm

re: #279 buzzsawmonkey

The duck-billed platypus is an evolutionary cul-de-sac.

The duck-filled platitude is a political cul-de-sac.

The filled duck in the oven is a culinary cul-de-sac.

314 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:59:22pm

re: #304 unrealizedviewpoint

Cato's upding is noticeably missing from ArmyWife's comment. ahh. Mr. Cato?

19 and counting!'

GO AW ,,,, GO ,,

315 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:59:33pm

re: #290 Kilroy

It seems there's still an "Axis of Evil".

Israel, England, and America

316 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:59:38pm

re: #295 Cato the Elder

"Always with the negative waves".

317 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:59:55pm
318 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:59:59pm

re: #295 Cato the Elder

I assume that first sentence would be your statement as president.

Arms and technical support when? Tomorrow? Logistics?

"The outcome is up to the people of Iran." That's pretty much what Obama said, isn't it?

And yeah, we've always stood up for "anyone seeking the inalienable right to freedom and self determination". Except for when those people were fighting one of "our" dictators, like, oh, I don't know, Saddam when he was our butt-buddy?

If I were on the streets of Iran right now I'd be hoping for no bold statements from the United States of Amnesia.

Please, you would be hiding in your basement. And you know it. ArmyWife just bitch slapped your ass. Sit down and enjoy it.

319 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:00:08pm

re: #281 VegasRick

If that's true - WOW!

I'd be A LOT more inclined to give credibility if it said "Army" or "Artesh".

/48 hour rule

320 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:00:14pm

re: #312 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just send your inflated ego and attitude, you'd flatten the entire country.

And that is all I am saying on the subject.

Cato the Daisy Cutter

321 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:00:27pm

re: #318 VegasRick

Please, you would be hiding in your basement. And you know it. ArmyWife just bitch slapped your ass. Sit down and enjoy it.

LOL.....

322 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:00:36pm

Some folks changing their location to Tehran to try to give the gov't too many people to look for:

Tnx! RT @InOtherWords_I've changed my location to Iran in support of #iranelection. we are al Iranian, the govt must find us all. @GR88

RT @fredomartin Change Twit Profile Timezone to GMT+03:30 Tehran & location to Tehran to foil ID attempts on Iranian patriots #iranelection

323 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:00:57pm

re: #266 ArmyWife

Firstly, I'm not President for a reason. Secondly, I'm married to a 1SG, you know, the one that does the work. Thirdly, if my husband is called upon for something such as this, I will proudly kiss him goodbye, just as I did in the first Iraq conflict, in Afghanistan a few times, and 3 times in the current Iraqi conflict. It isn't nameless, faceless troops I pretend to send; it is the father of my children and the love of my life.

PS apologies to my COL father and Granddaddy for the slight on officers.

PPS - edit away!

Respects to secondly and thirdly.

As for firstly, you decried the president's statement. I thought you might have something in mind that he should have said instead. Beg pardon.

324 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:01:14pm

This is what all despots fear- that at some point their victims will no longer fear them and rise up against them. In Iran- that day is here.

325 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:01:25pm

"In a democracy, I realize that you don't need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that's the dictator, because he speaks for all the people. But in a democracy like Israel, there is a wide range of opinions and that counterbalances the disappointment that I have in not meeting with the people shaping Israeli power now in the government."
-- Jimmy Carter

326 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:02:29pm

re: #325 jaunte
Asshat par exellance'

327 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:02:45pm

re: #305 quickjustice

We haven't had diplomatic relations with the Iranian regime since they kidnapped and tortured our diplomats back in 1979. The Iranian Embassy sits vacant in D.C. as a consequence.

Obama could recite this long and sordid history of the Iranian regime's injuries to America and Israel since 1979 without blinking an eye. Then he could recite Iranian attacks on our soldiers in Iraq directly and by proxy. After that, he could discuss Hezbollah's terrorism, financed by the Iranians. And of course, Iran's support for Syria's disgusting regime. He could tell the truth about Iran's sordid recent history in international affairs, and then conclude with, "And now, this monstrous regime has turned on its own people." But he won't.

Instead, he'll spout platitudinous B.S.


However, the old American Embassy in Tehran is (reportedly) being used as the headquarters of the Pasdaran's Qods Force.

328 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:02:52pm

i'm "deeply troubled" that o is totus right now.

329 BignJames  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:03:25pm

re: #325 jaunte

ow ow ow ow........idiocy like that is painful.

330 DEZes  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:03:33pm

re: #324 Sharmuta

This is what all despots fear- that at some point their victims will no longer fear them and rise up against them. In Iran- that day is here.

There will be little rest in Iran.
I on the other hand must seek it.

Thanks for the company as always Lizards.

331 Racer X  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:03:50pm

I heard today that Mousavi was the "father" of Iran's nuclear weapons program. True?

332 TheMatrix31  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:03:58pm

Here's my 50-words-or-less statement:

"It is clear to the rest of the world that the recent events in the wake of the Iranian election show the burgeoning desire for democracy and freedom. Disputed and fraudulent elections are the antithesis of democracy, and is not conducive to the concept of freedom. We, as Americans, need to continue to lead by example so that the injustices of these regimes do not have their way in silencing the vocal opposition."

333 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:04:12pm

re: #295 Cato the Elder

I assume that first sentence would be your statement as president.

Arms and technical support when? Tomorrow? Logistics?

"The outcome is up to the people of Iran." That's pretty much what Obama said, isn't it?

And yeah, we've always stood up for "anyone seeking the inalienable right to freedom and self determination". Except for when those people were fighting one of "our" dictators, like, oh, I don't know, Saddam when he was our butt-buddy?

If I were on the streets of Iran right now I'd be hoping for no bold statements from the United States of Amnesia.

Yes.

Logistics can be worked out and quickly, we're on both sides of 'em.

Saddam being a butt-buddy is an old red-herring, we gave him some technical support against Iran, very few arms were transfered. It was in our interest to do so then, just as getting rid of the Mullahs is in our interest now.

Come on he said nothing of the kind, it was all pablum hope to offend no one with out taking a stand.

Bold, supporting basic rights is bold? It's the fucking minimum for g-d sake.
Have you seen the tweets asking for just such a thing?

334 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:04:18pm

re: #330 DEZes

There will be little rest in Iran.
I on the other hand must seek it.

Thanks for the company as always Lizards.

Later DEZ.

335 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:04:37pm

re: #317 buzzsawmonkey

Make sure that it's fresh,
Tho' sometimes that's hard;
There's nothing more tasteless
Than a canned canard.

And no Peking in the oven while it's cooking!

336 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:04:39pm

re: #331 Racer X

I heard today that Mousavi was the "father" of Iran's nuclear weapons program. True?

true

337 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:04:59pm

re: #331 Racer X

I heard today that Mousavi was the "father" of Iran's nuclear weapons program. True?

Here's a story from Haaretz:
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

338 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:04:59pm

re: #314 sattv4u2

I'm blushing! Thanks, guys. Seriously.

339 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:05:14pm

re: #332 TheMatrix31

Here's my 50-words-or-less statement:

"It is clear to the rest of the world that the recent events in the wake of the Iranian election show the burgeoning desire for democracy and freedom. Disputed and fraudulent elections are the antithesis of democracy, and is not conducive to the concept of freedom. We, as Americans, need to continue to lead by example so that the injustices of these regimes do not have their way in silencing the vocal opposition."

well said

340 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:05:37pm

re: #295 Cato the Elder

Well, Cato, it is evident that you are wrong, at least, you are not made of the same mettle as many of the Iranians that we have seen in text and pictures today.

It is evident that they do respect support from the west, as we have seen from on the spot "twittering," emails, cell phone text messages, photographs and videos.

We have seen signs in ENGLISH, supporting an open and fair election and against the machinations of the current government.

We have had comments right here, on LGF, thanking us for and asking us for our moral support.

We have even heard news outlets, normally luke warm about Iran, news outlets, decry the tactics of the Iranian government over the last few days, barring reporters, jamming transmissions, cutting off cell phone access and trying to shut down the free flow of information.

And, we have seen YOU, for the last two days, be basically a majority of one, who sees nothing positive in giving any support to the Iranians, either personally or from western governments.

Considering the points I have outlined above, you are pissing in the wind, alone and a lonely voice for defeat.

To bad.

341 big steve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:05:41pm

re: #325 jaunte

"In a democracy, I realize that you don't need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that's the dictator, because he speaks for all the people. But in a democracy like Israel, there is a wide range of opinions and that counterbalances the disappointment that I have in not meeting with the people shaping Israeli power now in the government."
-- Jimmy Carter

I remember when Jimmy was President and there was a photoin the paper, probably after Camp David Accords, with Carter, Begin, and Sadat. We were looking at this picture in the plant control room and the most red neck, old timer operator around, looked at the picture with troll-like Begin, and goofy looking Carter and said, "lookin at those boys, one sure wishes Sadat was our President."

342 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:05:58pm
"The United States longs to have a positive relationship with a truly free and democratic Iran. An Iran that does not support international terrorism, is at peace with all of its neighbors, and is again a constructive player in world affairs."

How hard would it be for the President to make an unequivocal statement like the one above? How would such a statement in any way undermine the efforts of the pro-democracy forces in Iran? President Obama's statement today was pure garbage. I'm sure he'll be much more forceful in defending his monstrosity of a health care bill or the trillions he plans to piss away over the next four years.

343 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:06:07pm

re: #331 Racer X

Yes, I believe that is correct. Furthermore on Lou Dobbs tonight -- they quoted Mousavi and his many statements (including his expression of support for Hezbollah, etc.)

344 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:06:13pm

re: #338 ArmyWife

I'm blushing! Thanks, guys. Seriously.

You deserved it.

345 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:06:14pm

re: #332 TheMatrix31

WOOT!

346 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:06:47pm

re: #330 DEZes

There will be little rest in Iran.
I on the other hand must seek it.

Thanks for the company as always Lizards.

Good night!

347 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:07:10pm

re: #327 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And if there had been covert use of the Iranian Embassy in D.C. in the past by people friendly to our nation, would anyone tell us that?

348 HelloDare  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:07:12pm

re: #302 big steve

Is Obama growing a mustache?

You know how those Muslims are about their staches? /

349 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:07:16pm

re: #285 sattv4u2

That's entirely possible... You would hope that they wouldn't, but some would themselves face death from their superiors for failing to act.

Now here's where the foreign policy alternatives come into play. Diplomats and foreign policy people - and Presidents like the known. They like the familiar since it's all they know. They know Ahmadinejad. They sort of know Mousavi. They know the mullahs.

A revolution or serious upheaval of the entire political structure in Iran changes things in ways that the diplomats can't quite figure, and again, the intel branches weren't able to figure out (or if they did, they didn't let anyone know).

So, how do the diplomats want things to play out? Democracy doesn't actually enter the equation I'm afraid. It's a soundbite. But they do want to know who they're dealing with - and they're not going to show their hand (or they wouldn't if the Administration is smart).

350 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:07:23pm

re: #239 LGoPs

I would say that America is a friend to freedom and democracy everywhere. To those who would quash it or suppress it, not so.

Ooh. That's going to scare them mullahs, yessirree.

351 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:07:43pm

re: #341 big steve

Sadat was a much (much) bigger man than Carter.

352 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:08:04pm

re: #340 Walter L. Newton

Corrections coming from Cato in 5,4,3,2,1...

353 Shifty  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:08:23pm

So refreshing to see real protestors and not just unemployed emo kids showing up for the Vegan Wraps and Hackey Sack games.

354 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:08:38pm

re: #343 J.S.

Yes, I believe that is correct. Furthermore on Lou Dobbs tonight -- they quoted Mousavi and his many statements (including his expression of support for Hezbollah, etc.)

He sucks only a little less than the other POS. What is going on now in Iran is good for freedom loving Iranians.

355 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:08:43pm

Iran09 twitter:
RT from Iran: Riot Police in Iran are 5000 Lebanese Hezbollah militants, they chomping people in Persian with Arabic accent #iranelection

356 Racer X  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:08:52pm

re: #337 jaunte

Here's a story from Haaretz:
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Interesting. Why are we rushing to help Iran put Mousavi back in charge? Achmedinnerjacket spouts a lot of crap. Mousavi is the guy who actually started the whole nuclear weapons mess.

357 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:09:03pm

re: #353 Shifty

So refreshing to see real protestors and not just unemployed emo kids showing up for the Vegan Wraps and Hackey Sack games.

Did I miss the free food?

358 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:09:21pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

Ooh. That's going to scare them mullahs, yessirree.

Show support for the goal of the protesters and the mullahs won't have time to be scared of the US.

359 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:09:40pm

re: #355 reine.de.tout

Iran09 twitter:
RT from Iran: Riot Police in Iran are 5000 Lebanese Hezbollah militants, they chomping people in Persian with Arabic accent #iranelection

see they only support Hezbollah when they're killing Jooz

360 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:09:43pm
361 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:09:51pm

re: #354 VegasRick

And, you know that -- how?

362 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:10:13pm

re: #295 Cato the Elder

Arms and technical support when? Tomorrow? Logistics?


umm,, you are aware that this is 2009,, not 1945. We can literally be anywhere in the world technically in seconds and militarilly within minutes, not months like trying to amass forces for the crossing from Dover top Calais!

363 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:10:14pm

re: #355 reine.de.tout

Well, if Hizbullah has its thugs in Iran, that means they're not in Lebanon, which is great for the Lebanese.

364 Racer X  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:10:17pm

re: #352 Walter L. Newton

Corrections coming from Cato in 5,4,3,2,1...

Mavis Beacon?

365 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:10:20pm

re: #348 HelloDare

He's gotta grow the beard.....

366 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:10:26pm

re: #356 Racer X

Interesting. Why are we rushing to help Iran put Mousavi back in charge? Achmedinnerjacket spouts a lot of crap. Mousavi is the guy who actually started the whole nuclear weapons mess.

I don't see the protesters wanting either ass in charge, they want a total change.

367 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:10:57pm

re: #356 Racer X

Interesting. Why are we rushing to help Iran put Mousavi back in charge? Achmedinnerjacket spouts a lot of crap. Mousavi is the guy who actually started the whole nuclear weapons mess.

I suspect that we are supporting the unrest, the fact that these people are fed up with the lies, the dishonesty, the lack of freedom. I don't think much support is coming from us, or the west, because we feel that it's suddenly going to become some sort of paradise in Iran.

368 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:11:10pm
369 HelloDare  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:11:12pm

re: #365 Macker

He's gotta grow the beard.....

Then dye it red.

370 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:11:24pm

re: #340 Walter L. Newton

Well said, Walter. I'm afraid after all that writing, Cato will only notice that you wrote "to bad" instead of "too bad."

371 yochanan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:11:27pm

[Link: www.goftaniha.org...]

this is what fascism looks like too.

372 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:11:46pm

re: Racer X

Interesting. Why are we rushing to help Iran put Mousavi back in charge? Achmedinnerjacket spouts a lot of crap. Mousavi is the guy who actually started the whole nuclear weapons mess.

We know that it doesn't matter who the President is. Lizards are not stupid. However the revolution (if it can sprout legs), just might give the bad guys a black eye or two.

We are all for that.

I don't think anyone thinks that this would have any effect on the nuclear program.

373 Watcher  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:11:55pm

He votes Present again. Unbelievable.

374 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:11:57pm

re: #356 Racer X

Interesting. Why are we rushing to help Iran put Mousavi back in charge? Achmedinnerjacket spouts a lot of crap. Mousavi is the guy who actually started the whole nuclear weapons mess.

they both suck but dinnerjacket is the mullahs guy...

375 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:11:57pm

re: reine.de.tout

Iran09 twitter:
RT from Iran: Riot Police in Iran are 5000 Lebanese Hezbollah militants, they chomping people in Persian with Arabic accent #iranelection

I'm still not sure which tweats to trust....

Is there anything more substantial on this Hizballah/Arab militant riot police connection thing?

376 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:12:03pm

re: #366 FurryOldGuyJeans
Exactly. All candidates were approved by the mullahs. This is about getting rid of the mad mullahs not a fraudulent election that I would think most Iranians knew would be fraudulent.

377 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:12:06pm

The magical thinking around here is getting too hard to penetrate. See you all in a thread or two, when I'm sure it will be worse.

Won't that be fun.

378 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:12:13pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

Ooh. That's going to scare them mullahs, yessirree.

brick...the idea is not to scare the Mullahs....you have been so involved with yourself that you've not kept up

379 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:12:19pm

re: #370 Silvergirl

Well said, Walter. I'm afraid after all that writing, Cato will only notice that you wrote "to bad" instead of "too bad."

I did than on porpoise.

380 Racer X  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:12:26pm

re: #367 Walter L. Newton

Ahh. I get it. Kinda like rooting for Hillary to take down Obama, but really wanting them both to just go away.

381 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:12:41pm

re: #347 quickjustice

And if there had been covert use of the Iranian Embassy in D.C. in the past by people friendly to our nation, would anyone tell us that?

My point was merely that we respect Iran's diplomatic property.
Iran houses an organization which kills Americans in ours.

382 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:12:44pm

re: #343 J.S.

Yes, I believe that is correct. Furthermore on Lou Dobbs tonight -- they quoted Mousavi and his many statements (including his expression of support for Hezbollah, etc.)

I've been thinking this for two days. He was one of the few the mullahs permitted to run for prez, no? Why should I believe he'd be more tolerant of the Great Satan other than a few statements I've read?

383 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:12:59pm

re: #13 J.S.

I think Obama has spoken appropriately, given the circumstances. He can't be seen as taking sides, for fear of being accused of meddling in a foreign country's internal affairs, yet he still came out and expressed his dismay with respect to the violence going on against the peaceful demonstrators.

But it's OK for the US to tell Jews in Jerusalem not to make babies. How deep in another country's internal affairs is THAT for freaking sake?

384 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:03pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

Pseudo-intellectual.

385 American Sabra  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:04pm

re: #305 quickjustice

Yes, you're right. He should have stated those things even if Ahmadinejad wasn't President at the time they happened. Of course, it's worse there now so it would have definitely been appropriate.

But he can't call him/them a monstrous regime that's turned on it's people. I would argue he said that anyway in his way. The problem really is that folks who hate him will never see anything about him they can agree with. He's a diplomat. That's how he talks. I saw no criticisms of Bush's speeches here back in the day, and the man made words up. Obama is never going to brand a government as evil in the way Bush did. It's not his style. I can't tell at this point how it will play out. But I will say, I'm not angry at the man because he's a diplomat.

386 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:06pm

re: #361 J.S.

And, you know that -- how?

Which part?

387 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:11pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

The magical thinking around here is getting too hard to penetrate. See you all in a thread or two, when I'm sure it will be worse.

Won't that be fun.

I can't wait to miss you

388 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:20pm

re: #192 reine.de.tout

Before Cato gets to you - perhaps you meant "tenet" not "tenant".

LOL, quick thinking reine.
as you obviously 'no', spelling monitors are a 'boar.'

389 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:23pm

Dear Mr. President -

Perhaps you would characterize/dismiss what I am about to say as "an expression of a conflicting world view" but I feel compelled to say it nonetheless.

This is binary.

There is a clear, stark choice and you are trying to chose "defer the choice". But that isn't a neutral stance - it is a stance that nullifies the "moral standing" of the United States that you have repeatedly claimed to be trying to restore.

As an academic and a liberal, you know that human history is dominated by the few oppressing the many. You know that the very idea of democracy as a stable means of governing and universal human rights are both very novel ideas in the span of history.

And as a great orator, you also know the power of words especially in an electronic age.

And as someone who was an adult when the velvet revolution took place and when the Berlin Wall fell, you know how a popular movement of mass protest can bring about great change in a short time.

So why are you trying to play it safe? By doing so, you are blunting the moral authority of the United States. Adopting a nuanced respect of Iranian sovereignty as American policy will not inspire the oppressed - coming from the United States it is a body blow.

I do not regret my support for the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Part of what motivated my support for them was our shameful betrayal of Iraqis when we encouraged revolt after the Gulf War and then watched on the sidelines as Saddam drove tanks over disidents to save the cost of bullets.

History is dominated by thugs - thugs who make clear their contempt for the values we hold dear. Your failure to confront them is a tacit endorsement of them.

That is not Change. That gives no one Hope.

But I suppose that makes you feel safe.

God save the people of Iran.

390 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:25pm

re: #356 Racer X

No one is thrilled with the options - "moderate" here means only slightly less crazy. The point is bigger, in my view. It is a step, and the reaction is showing how desperately the people of Iran want freedom and democracy. It flies in the face of those who say "we shouldn't impart our culture on others". We don't have too, people want to be free. Listening, Mr. President?

391 TheMatrix31  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:26pm

Speaking of Hezbollah....

I've discovered that one of the main Armenian political groups had been paying the way of Lebanese-Armenians who hold citizenship in Lebanon to go vote FOR Hezbollah in their elections a couple weeks ago!

Unbelievable! What an outrage!

392 notutopia  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:28pm

Obama made all the politically correct and valid democratic talking points. He even looked and sounded like he had no assistance from his teleprompter.
The US has no right to interfere in their Iranian election process and won't violate their sovereignty.
That he doesn't condone the violence.
But, that he approves of the due right of those who feel that the election process was flawed, have a right to their voice being heard and a resolution to their grievances.
I also liked the fact that he more strongly emphasized and referenced the important caveat that he was maintaining opposition to Ahmadinejad's odious words, and beliefs, and his country's actions to aiding and abetting terrorists, and that he would continue to uphold opposition to Iran becoming a middle east nuclear power.

Not a bad stance to take.

393 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:32pm

re: #359 pegcity

Weren't the Lebanese Hizballah thugs the same group used to quell the student uprising in Iran years ago? Sort of mercenary thugs that the mullahs use to keep the population in check?

394 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:42pm

re: #362 sattv4u2

Nuclear deposits in 45 minutes or less, or your money back.

Or, nonnuclear payloads delivered in 3 hours or less (figuring flying times from nearest aircraft carriers or cruise missile launches from subs/surface ships.

395 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:13:58pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

The magical thinking around here is getting too hard to penetrate. See you all in a thread or two, when I'm sure it will be worse.

Won't that be fun.

"Won't that be fun" needs a question mark. The answer is, probably not.

396 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:14:12pm

re: #384 Gus 802

Pseudo-intellectual.

agreed...an attention whore

397 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:14:19pm

re: #355 reine.de.tout

As I suspected. IIRC, at the time of the Hungarian Revolt in 1956, the Soviets couldn't get their occupying Russian soldiers to kill the Hungarians, so they brought in Soviet soldiers from Asia unfamiliar with the Hungarians to do the job.

These are vile and villainous people who bring the Hezbollah terrorists financed by the sweat of innocent Iranian brows to murder their own countrymen.

398 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:14:29pm

re: #384 Gus 802

Pseudo-intellectual.

He's realized he got pwned and now wants to sulk in peace.

399 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:14:50pm

Wikipedia's list of revolutions and rebellions here.

400 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:15:05pm

re: #394 lawhawk

Nuclear deposits in 45 minutes or less, or your money back.

Or, nonnuclear payloads delivered in 3 hours or less (figuring flying times from nearest aircraft carriers or cruise missile launches from subs/surface ships.

Cato thinks we're still using three masted clipper ships and gun powder kegs

401 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:15:13pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

The magical thinking around here is getting too hard to penetrate. See you all in a thread or two, when I'm sure it will be worse.

Won't that be fun.

Please do not hurry back on my account.

402 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:15:26pm

re: #396 albusteve

agreed...an attention whore

Totally obnoxious. All he does is criticize others yet never contributes.

403 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:15:30pm

re: #375 Joo-LiZ

I'm still not sure which tweats to trust....

Is there anything more substantial on this Hizballah/Arab militant riot police connection thing?

I've seen tweets about this all day, from Iran09, StopAhmadi and IranElection09, and their information seems to be fairly accurate.

This number, though (5000) seems awfully high to me.

But what do I know.

404 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:15:31pm

re: #380 Racer X

Ahh. I get it. Kinda like rooting for Hillary to take down Obama, but really wanting them both to just go away.

If you say so. Personally, I harbor no fantasies that one Iranian president will be much better than another, as long as the mullahs hold the real power, but this outburst (and our support) can show the mullahs that they don't have as much control as they hoped.

405 Racer X  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:15:39pm

re: #384 Gus 802

Pseudo-intellectual.

Fat kid who never got picked for dodge-ball. Then ran to the teacher and snitched on the cool kids whenever they broke the rules.

406 Sarcasmo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:15:50pm

re: karmic_inquisitor

Amen sir

407 SteveC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:15:52pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

The magical thinking around here is getting too hard to penetrate. See you all in a thread or two, when I'm sure it will be worse.

Bring your Spear and Magic Helmet, that helps a lot!

408 kansas  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:16:16pm

re: #402 Gus 802

Totally obnoxious. All he does is criticize others yet never contributes.

Can we get a harumpf for that guy?

409 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:16:18pm

re: unrealizedviewpoint

I've been thinking this for two days. He was one of the few the mullahs permitted to run for prez, no? Why should I believe he'd be more tolerant of the Great Satan other than a few statements I've read?

My impression is that Mousavi is NOT any better than anyone else; but as far as I am concerned, this has long not been about Mousavi, and instead is a populist expression of outrage against the current regime.

I hope that once this is all finished, they (or at least Mousavi) will have a change of heart/realize it is not time to continue the old policies.

I'm also not convinced Mousavi will make it through the coming weeks unscathed; especially now that the protest-suppression has begun in ernest.

410 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:16:27pm

re: #379 Walter L. Newton

I did than on porpoise.

Floundering around for a response...

411 bellamags  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:16:29pm

Cato is a meanie.

412 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:16:29pm

I just tuned in.

Three days of silence while a team of thousands worked on the properly nuanced statement.

Leadership! Thank you for standing tall President Pantywaste.

/I know that was unkind. Could have said worse though.

413 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:16:29pm

re: #402 Gus 802

Totally obnoxious. All he does is criticize others yet never contributes.

called us 'shit pickers'!

414 American Sabra  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:16:36pm

re: #306 J.S.

There have been a number of reports about Mousavi (what he represents, who he is, where he's coming from, etc., etc.) -- see MEMRI's article on Iran"s Elections (part 2 is particularly informative), then there's Ajami's (devastating?) analysis -- in part, Ajami warned tonight, on Lou Dobbs show, about making serious misreadings of history...I'll get the transcript tomorrow..

Ok. Well I've been on vacation a few days and trying to catch up. Ajami is Fouad Ajami? I haven't read all of Memri yet. Will look for the transcript.

415 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:16:58pm

I'm just tuning into this thread, 350 comments in.

Nevertheless, I'll weigh in. I was very pleased by Obama's statement, up to about 3:20 or so. I think it was right to start by talking about how he respects Iranian sovereignty, and doesn't want to involve the U.S. in this, before he voiced his respect for the demonstrators. He said all the right stuff, although I wish he wasn't such a lousy speaker. Does he have to close his eyes, stare at the ground, and say three "um's" per sentence?

Then I think he kind of blew it by mentioning how keen he is on talking to Ahmadinejad about nuclear weapons. Today isn't about him, or about nuclear weapons. It's about these brave demonstrators and their quest for democracy. He stole their thunder a little bit. And I think he made a biger blunder with his incredibly hedgy statement about how we "respect" the demonstrators, "regardless of how the election turns out." He was right with the message that "we're watching," but then he blew it with what was essentially a message that "we'll wait and see who wins, and then we'll congratulate them."

416 bellamags  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:17:09pm

re: #413 albusteve

called us 'shit pickers'!

LOL. shit picker. lol

417 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:17:22pm

re: #391 TheMatrix31

Speaking of Hezbollah....

I've discovered that one of the main Armenian political groups had been paying the way of Lebanese-Armenians who hold citizenship in Lebanon to go vote FOR Hezbollah in their elections a couple weeks ago!

Unbelievable! What an outrage!

And yet it back fired. They lost.

418 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:17:24pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

The magical thinking around here is getting too hard to penetrate. See you all in a thread or two, when I'm sure it will be worse.

Won't that be fun.

Don't postpone your flounce on our account.

419 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:17:30pm

Is arrogance something you have to be born with?
Or can it be acquired?

/why would someone WANT to?

420 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:17:37pm

re: #396 albusteve

agreed...an attention whore

That asshole hardly ever responds to me. And I'm always realy nice to him. he doe'snt evan currect ma furking speeling!

421 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:17:46pm

re: #416 bellamags

LOL. shit picker. lol

It's like a nit kicker, right?

422 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:17:56pm

re: reine.de.tout

I've seen tweets about this all day, from Iran09, StopAhmadi and IranElection09, and their information seems to be fairly accurate.

This number, though (5000) seems awfully high to me.

But what do I know.

I've been reading it in various untrustworthy places since yesterday... I've just seen nothing explicitly countering it. I feel as though a rumour like that would quickly be disspelled if not true.

423 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:17:57pm
424 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:18:03pm

Conflicted here. I can sort of see his point in wanting to keep America from becoming the issue, and avoiding it being used to scupper the movement for change on Iraq, but I can't help thinking that Obama should have taken advantage of the popularity and trust he has worldwide to make a stronger statement.

425 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:18:05pm

re: #401 FurryOldGuyJeans

Please do not hurry back on my account.

In due course, , FurryOldGuyJeans, I shall explain what I found out in on LGF about this Cato, and demonstrate what advantage there may be in looking into his writings (while not taking him too seriously). He is a worthless and unruly person. Take this as a prophecy.

(Quoted by Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia 29.13–14. Revised by Me)

426 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:18:12pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

The magical thinking around here is getting too hard to penetrate. See you all in a thread or two, when I'm sure it will be worse.

Won't that be fun.

Is it my imagination, or has been even more of a d*ck than usual today?

427 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:18:16pm

re: #405 Racer X

Fat kid who never got picked for dodge-ball. Then ran to the teacher and snitched on the cool kids whenever they broke the rules.

Never getting picked is worse than getting picked last. =]

428 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:18:36pm

re: #426 Last Mohican

Is it my imagination, or has he been even more of a d*ck than usual today?

PIMF

429 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:03pm

re: #426 Last Mohican

Is it my imagination, or has been even more of a d*ck than usual today?

Viagra.

430 bellamags  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:05pm

re: #421 Gang of One

It's like a nit kicker, right?

wtf is that? LOL. i find this amusing. well if he thinks we are shit pickers, then he eats it. LOL. im not even drunk.

431 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:12pm

re: #405 Racer X

Fat kid who never got picked for dodge-ball. Then ran to the teacher and snitched on the cool kids whenever they broke the rules.

I wish I had more than one ding to give!

432 TheMatrix31  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:14pm

re: #417 Sharmuta

And yet it back fired. They lost.

And I couldn't be happier. Fuckin' stupid. Way to ruin the reputations of Armenians, people!

433 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:25pm

re: #212 Cato the Elder

Rinse and repeat. Backed up with what?

you have a point. this is indeed a stretch for o.
his words would ring hollow and insincere.
true, there is not much in o's persona to back them up.
but just saying them in his capacity as totus could possible inspire the citizens of iran.
certainly his silence is ominous to them.

434 SteveC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:26pm

re: #410 anotherindyfilmguy

Floundering around for a response...

For crying out loud! Don't you guys carp enough?

435 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:32pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

The President doesn't make statements under circumstance like these to "scare the mullahs". He makes them to educate the American people in the history of our relationship with Iran, and to make common cause with our friends and allies in protesting the mass murder of innocent civilians in Iran.

436 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:36pm

re: #424 Jimmah

Conflicted here. I can sort of see his point in wanting to keep America from becoming the issue, and avoiding it being used to scupper the movement for change on Iraq, but I can't help thinking that Obama should have taken advantage of the popularity and trust he has worldwide to make a stronger statement.

That's kind of where I am with it, too.

437 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:38pm

re: yochanan

That took me a sec to figure out what you were talking about...

That would be worth it for all of a minute, just to see Irans reaction.

But it'd never happen.

438 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:44pm

re: #426 Last Mohican

Is it my imagination, or has been even more of a d*ck than usual today?

He's been getting more sleep than usual.

439 Unbound  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:19:49pm

Great commentary on the part of the president of the USA. He obviously knows that it is best for the USA to work quietly around the sidelines, push things in the right direction, without resorting to ridiculous pronouncements that only lead to an increase in tensions between two countries. We are just now starting to be able to move Iran away from extreme radical postures. I hope that you realize that one of the main reasons that Iran had a contested election is because the people of Iran don't see the USA as the country that is just plain out to destroy them, and they relax and be less radical in their overall posture.

One thing that Obama knows well is that democracy and freedom can not be imposed on a population, they must develop internally for them to have any value and stability. If the USA even looks like it is becoming involved in the internal affairs of Iran, it would backfire completely, pushing Iran directly back into the arms of the more radical factions... no people in any country are willing to have another country telling them how they should think.

What do you want? Would you like Obama to clamor "We are all Iranians" in a similar way that McCain proclaimed "We are all Georgians" last year and pushing the US towards direct armed conflict with the Russians?

440 NelsFree  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:20:15pm

re: #113 albusteve

I did not suggest going to war with Iran...certainly they are our ideological opponent and that should be clear to everyone worldwide

Please forgive me if this has already been posted on this thread.
"I am the Ghost of JCM. I say again, that Iran has been at war with 'the Great Satan' (United States) since 4 November 1979. We just don't realize it. Mark me!"
/had to add that Shakespearean flourish

441 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:20:20pm

re: #430 bellamags

wtf is that? LOL. i find this amusing. well if he thinks we are shit pickers, then he eats it. LOL. im not even drunk.

C'Mere ,,,, I'm pouring !

442 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:20:32pm

re: #420 VegasRick

That asshole hardly ever responds to me. And I'm always realy nice to him. he doe'snt evan currect ma furking speeling!

I tried that too and got smacked for the effort....good grief...Hi Cato!

443 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:20:35pm

Nancy Pelosi is still on the loose.

Remember to lock your windows and doors and do NOT answer to anyone saying "Candygram".


That is all. Night.

444 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:20:50pm

re: #409 Joo-LiZ

My impression is that Mousavi is NOT any better than anyone else; but as far as I am concerned, this has long not been about Mousavi, and instead is a populist expression of outrage against the current regime.

I share your take, this is a reactionary movement allong the lines of "I am Persian and proud, and I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!"

445 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:21:05pm

re: #382 unrealizedviewpoint

Have you read that article from MEMRI? What would happen (I suspect) is that if Mousavi gained power (highly, highly unlikely -- but for argument's sake let's just suppose the Supreme Leader switches support to Mousavi) -- If Mousavi were suddenly President of Iran, it would not spell "the end of the Mullahs" -- not at all. What some analysts suggest is that Iran's nuclear program would carry on (full tilt), but Obama would then be heralded as the Grand Wizard of the World (especially by the Europeans) -- able to charm even Iranians into "moderation" (but, of course, this would all be entirely fictitious -- Mousavi is not what the West is so anxious to believe he is -- he's not out to democratize Iran...just soften the edges (sufficiently so as to woo the West)...With a Mousavi in power it would probably mean that iran would receive billions of dollars in European and American aid monies...(so then Iran could turn around and get nukes, support hezbollah, etc., while the MSM would be oohing and ahing about the "moderates".)

446 BignJames  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:21:08pm

re: #401 FurryOldGuyJeans

Please do not hurry back on my account.

Was that a flounce?

447 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:21:16pm
448 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:21:58pm

re: #442 albusteve

I tried that too and got smacked for the effort....good grief...Hi Cato!

LOL! Gotta run bro, see you lizards later

449 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:22:20pm

re: #447 buzzsawmonkey

I would have liked to see Obama make his statement with a little more verbal force. If that meant he had to cozy up to his electronic friend, so be it; his casual statement may have been intended to come across as sincere, but it sounded vacillating, flannel-tongued, and indecisive.


so in essence, typical O

450 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:22:20pm

re: #439 Unbound
What the fuck are you smoking? "Move Iran away from extreme radical postures"? IEDs made in Iran going to Iraq to kill our troops, constantly threaten Israel with annilhation. Don't seem to be moving very far to me!

451 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:22:24pm

re: #439 Unbound

Are we in direct armed conflict with the Russians?

452 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:22:42pm

re: #409 Joo-LiZ

My impression is that Mousavi is NOT any better than anyone else; but as far as I am concerned, this has long not been about Mousavi, and instead is a populist expression of outrage against the current regime.

I hope that once this is all finished, they (or at least Mousavi) will have a change of heart/realize it is not time to continue the old policies.

I'm also not convinced Mousavi will make it through the coming weeks unscathed; especially now that the protest-suppression has begun in ernest.

Should things turn real bad, the mullah's could simply say: ooops, we mistake, we mistake...the winner is Mousavi. Everybody go home.
/now what?

453 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:22:44pm

re: #438 Walter L. Newton

He's been getting more sleep than usual.

More oxygen is getting to his brain. Won't be long before he finally reveals to his that he has an IQ of 167. ;)

454 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:22:57pm

re: #439 Unbound

We are just now starting to be able to move Iran away from extreme radical postures.

Let's cue into one of your statements above. How have we done this? What radical postures have changed in Iran, or let's say, in the last 6 months. A little proof would go a long way in showing us that you are not just sucking air.

You're whole post was just a lot of fluff, with no foundation and nothing to back up your "facts."

455 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:22:57pm

re: #448 VegasRick

LOL! Gotta run bro, see you lizards later

tek care mon

456 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:23:09pm
457 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:23:17pm

re: #439 Unbound

Cato, I thought you had left?

458 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:23:26pm

re: #453 Gus 802

More oxygen is getting to his brain. Won't be long before he finally reveals to his us that he has an IQ of 167. ;)

PIMF

459 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:23:33pm

re: #446 BignJames

Was that a flounce?

I don't care one way or the other. The air is considerably less foul since he departed.

460 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:23:48pm

re: #457 Walter L. Newton
Mwahahaha!

461 SteveC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:23:51pm

re: #435 quickjustice

The President doesn't make statements under circumstance like these to "scare the mullahs". He makes them to educate the American people in the history of our relationship with Iran, and to make common cause with our friends and allies in protesting the mass murder of innocent civilians in Iran.

In November of 1979 these people took over our embassy and held our citizens hostage. During that time we lost some brave men when a rescue attempt went bad in the desert, and there was also a photo of one of the hostage takers that looks an awful lot like their current president. We let them get away with that crap and they've been pushing the envelope ever since.

I don't need no education.

462 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:24:01pm

re: #447 buzzsawmonkey

I would have liked to see Obama make his statement with a little more verbal force. If that meant he had to cozy up to his electronic friend, so be it; his casual statement may have been intended to come across as sincere, but it sounded vacillating, flannel-tongued, and indecisive.

Good pot, always does it.

463 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:24:06pm

re: #384 Gus 802

Pseudo-intellectual.

"Not only am I smart, I'm half Japanese!"

/ancient B.C. comic strip

464 bellamags  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:24:18pm

re: #447 buzzsawmonkey

I would have liked to see Obama make his statement with a little more verbal force. If that meant he had to cozy up to his electronic friend, so be it; his casual statement may have been intended to come across as sincere, but it sounded vacillating, flannel-tongued, and indecisive.

I was listening to it earlier. The TV was on, I was in the other room. For some reason I could have swore he was in another country. He seemed out of place and uncomfortable as if replying from the office of another president. He made his points while walking on eggshells.

465 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:24:39pm

re: #413 albusteve

As I have 3 horses, he was technically correct. ;)

466 American Sabra  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:24:56pm

re: #325 jaunte

"In a democracy, I realize that you don't need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that's the dictator, because he speaks for all the people. But in a democracy like Israel, there is a wide range of opinions and that counterbalances the disappointment that I have in not meeting with the people shaping Israeli power now in the government."
-- Jimmy Carter

The only thing even remotely interesting about Jimmy Carter was his brother Billy.

467 Racer X  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:24:58pm

Did Reagan need to resort to covert OPS to bring down the USSR? No. Did he meddle in their internal affairs? No. He issued a simple challenge: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall".

C'mon Barry, you are missing a huge opportunity.

468 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:25:08pm

re: #439 Unbound

Great commentary on the part of the president of the USA. He obviously knows that it is best for the USA to work quietly around the sidelines, push things in the right direction, without resorting to ridiculous pronouncements that only lead to an increase in tensions between two countries. We are just now starting to be able to move Iran away from extreme radical postures. I hope that you realize that one of the main reasons that Iran had a contested election is because the people of Iran don't see the USA as the country that is just plain out to destroy them, and they relax and be less radical in their overall posture.

One thing that Obama knows well is that democracy and freedom can not be imposed on a population, they must develop internally for them to have any value and stability. If the USA even looks like it is becoming involved in the internal affairs of Iran, it would backfire completely, pushing Iran directly back into the arms of the more radical factions... no people in any country are willing to have another country telling them how they should think.

What do you want? Would you like Obama to clamor "We are all Iranians" in a similar way that McCain proclaimed "We are all Georgians" last year and pushing the US towards direct armed conflict with the Russians?

There are, oh two dozen or so countries in Western and Eastern Europe today that would 100% disagree with your assessments of what the USAs roll should be!
If the USA hadn't acted, those two dozen or so countries would all be undwer the flag of one or two!

469 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:25:13pm

re: #445 J.S.
I don't think this whole thing in Iran is about Mousavi. It's about the mad mullahs.

470 David Simon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:25:18pm

re: #361 J.S.

And, you know that -- how?

The Supreme Leader (the one who really has the power) vets every candidate.

Imagine if we only got to vote for candidates if they were approved by, say, Keith Olbermann. It's not what I would consider a free and fair election.

471 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:25:21pm

re: #457 Walter L. Newton

Cato, I thought you had left?

oh jeez

472 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:25:33pm

re: #463 OldLineTexan

"Not only am I smart, I'm half Japanese!"

/ancient B.C. comic strip

Does he own a mansion and a yacht?

/Elmer J. Fudd

473 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:25:35pm
474 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:25:38pm

re: #439 Unbound

You're great at presenting the extreme option as the only other option, as opposed to Obama's actual blathering.

No, I want Obama to imitate Ronald Reagan by announcing, "We begin bombing in five minutes!", as opposed to his actual "we now are negotiating the terms of our surrender to the Iranian regime." ;-)

475 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:25:50pm

re: #439 Unbound

I hope that you realize that one of the main reasons that Iran had a contested election is because the people of Iran don't see the USA as the country that is just plain out to destroy them, and they relax and be less radical in their overall posture.

Bullshit.

One thing that Obama knows well is that democracy and freedom can not be imposed on a population, they must develop internally for them to have any value and stability.

Two words: Germany and Japan. But that's a minor issue, because...

If the USA even looks like it is becoming involved in the internal affairs of Iran, it would backfire completely, pushing Iran directly back into the arms of the more radical factions...

I think you're absolutely right on that. I agree 100%.

What do you want? Would you like Obama to clamor "We are all Iranians" in a similar way that McCain proclaimed "We are all Georgians" last year and pushing the US towards direct armed conflict with the Russians?

You know what I want? I want a president who's not so unbelievably afraid to appear like he's taking sides that he refuses to provide a genuine, heartfelt expression of appreciation and solidarity. He's hedging his bets, making sure that he leaves open the possibility of negotiation with a genocidal terrorist madman, and he's throwing the people of Iran under the bus a little bit to do it. It's a fine line that he has to walk here, showing his moral solidarity without in any way appearing to be egging the demonstrators on, or making this the USA's fight. He did a decent job, but the last part of his statement stank of hedginess and moral uncertainty.

476 kynna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:26:11pm

re: #266 ArmyWife

Standing ovation. Bless you and your family for giving so much so blow-hards can blow in freedom and relative peace.

477 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:26:12pm

re: #465 ArmyWife

As I have 3 horses, he was technically correct. ;)

I've got an indoor cat, so I do a lot of litterbox cleaning. :%P%

478 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:26:19pm

re: #439 Unbound

Good pot, huh?

479 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:26:29pm

re: #439 Unbound

Oh, and let's clear one thing up here. This is a blog, where we debate and discuss, not post and run, chicken shit.

Yea, I know, I'm being a jerk, but really folks, you can smell these trolls from a mile away.

And someone has to be a jerk for them.

480 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:26:55pm

Every minute the regime gets stronger and the opposition gets weaker.

481 Sarcasmo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:27:12pm

re: Unbound

Would it have been interfearing to actually condem the murder of unarmed protesters? He dosent have to threaten or interfear but a statement with some back bone wouldn't hurt.

482 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:27:18pm

re: #465 ArmyWife

As I have 3 horses, he was technically correct. ;)

that's all that seems important to some people...I love me some horses...there are three or four little burros living on my Jamaica property...I love those little guys

483 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:27:33pm

re: #439 Unbound

Great commentary on the part of the president of the USA. He obviously knows that it is best for the USA to work quietly around the sidelines, push things in the right direction, without resorting to ridiculous pronouncements that only lead to an increase in tensions between two countries. We are just now starting to be able to move Iran away from extreme radical postures. I hope that you realize that one of the main reasons that Iran had a contested election is because the people of Iran don't see the USA as the country that is just plain out to destroy them, and they relax and be less radical in their overall posture.

One thing that Obama knows well is that democracy and freedom can not be imposed on a population, they must develop internally for them to have any value and stability. If the USA even looks like it is becoming involved in the internal affairs of Iran, it would backfire completely, pushing Iran directly back into the arms of the more radical factions... no people in any country are willing to have another country telling them how they should think.

What do you want? Would you like Obama to clamor "We are all Iranians" in a similar way that McCain proclaimed "We are all Georgians" last year and pushing the US towards direct armed conflict with the Russians?

No one has said he should have "clamored", "We are all Iranians".

Lots of folks here recognize that Obama is sort of between a rock and a hard place - the administration needs to be in a position to work with whatever the outcome is.

But the folks demonstrating over there are looking for a strong statement from Obama - some sign - and they haven't gotten it.

The news reported that: "But he also says he's troubled by situation in Iran and that it would be wrong to stay silent. Mr. Obama says any investigation into Iranian election results must not result in bloodshed."

There's already been bloodshed. Did he address that? Does he know what's happened over there? I'm sure he does, but it didn't sound like it from his statement. He could have, should have, made some statement acknowledging the blood spilled today, while still maintaining all the appropriate diplomatic word requirements.

484 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:27:53pm

re: #452 unrealizedviewpoint

They are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Calling Nutjob II President over Dinnerjacket may very well inspire those protesting to go further, reach out for real change. Not doing that may lead to those protesting to go further, reaching out for real change. ;)

485 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:27:55pm

re: #474 quickjustice

He doesn't have the Balls. Michelle has them locked up.

486 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:27:58pm

re: #469 pingjockey

I don't think this whole thing in Iran is about Mousavi. It's about the mad mullahs.

It's about the terrible system

487 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:28:11pm

re: #439 Unbound

One thing that Obama knows well is that democracy and freedom can not be imposed on a population

I don't think he knows this at all.

488 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:28:14pm

re: #480 experiencedtraveller

Every minute the regime gets stronger and the opposition gets weaker.

and vice versa

489 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:28:19pm

The stalking of people from one thread to the next, trying to chase them off the blog, endless petty squabbling will not end well. It's boring to most people. Those of us who've been here long enough know how this stuff ends up.
/just sayin'

490 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:28:44pm

re: #467 Racer X

Did Reagan need to resort to covert OPS to bring down the USSR? No. Did he meddle in their internal affairs? No. He issued a simple challenge: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall".

C'mon Barry, you are missing a huge opportunity.

I can just hear Obama now: "Mr. Netanyahu, tear down this wall!"

491 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:28:49pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

The stalking of people from one thread to the next, trying to chase them off the blog, endless petty squabbling will not end well. It's boring to most people. Those of us who've been here long enough know how this stuff ends up.
/just sayin'

Here we go again. Boo.

492 lincolntf  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:29:00pm

Hi all.
Are we still pretending that Obama has any influence on the events in Iran or are we already resigned to the fact that he's a fucking tool who wouldn't know real world politics if they bit him in the crack pipe?

493 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:29:08pm

How about this for a statement -

"The United States will always support the rights of men and women to govern themselves. For a very long time, the United States and the Mullahs that run Iran have been at odds on many issues.

But no issue is more fundamental to the interests and values of the United States that the right of the people to chose their government.

Those who say we cannot chose who we deal with in diplomacy are wrong on one point - the United States has long established the practice of not recognizing regimes that systemically abuse their populations and threaten peace. The government of Iran joined the list of states we don't recognize when they endorsed the kidnapping of our diplomatic staff in Tehran in 1979 - a clear a woeful violation of our soveriegnty.

It is with a sense of irony that we reject the Mullahs insistence that we not violate their sovereignty now. Now at a time where their systemic abuse of their population has finally earned them a backlash.

The United States will always be open to recognizing and working with a government in Iran that governs under the consent of its people.

494 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:29:08pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

The stalking of people from one thread to the next, trying to chase them off the blog, endless petty squabbling will not end well. It's boring to most people. Those of us who've been here long enough know how this stuff ends up.
/just sayin'

Thank you.

495 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:29:30pm

re: #464 bellamags

I was listening to it earlier. The TV was on, I was in the other room. For some reason I could have swore he was in another country. He seemed out of place and uncomfortable as if replying from the office of another president. He made his points while walking on eggshells.

Oh, Johnny get angry, Johnny get mad
Give me the biggest lecture I ever had
I want a brave man, I want a cave man
Johnny, show me that you care, really care for me

496 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:30:06pm

re: #461 SteveC

I don't need no education.

How about some thought control?
Dark sarcasm in the classroom?

/

497 enormodome  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:30:11pm
498 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:30:16pm

re: #469 pingjockey

Again, how do you know that? (for example, how does anyone know that X number of protesters are pissed off with Group of Clerics Y -- and they want Group of Clerics Y replaced with Group of Clerics Z...)

499 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:30:37pm

re: #445 J.S.

Now I really feel good bout all this..thanks.
/
I need a drink.

500 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:30:40pm

re: #492 lincolntf

Hi all.
Are we still pretending that Obama has any influence on the events in Iran or are we already resigned to the fact that he's a fucking tool who wouldn't know real world politics if they bit him in the crack pipe?

I'll agree with the fucking tool bit, but, it is evident by the tweets from Iran, the texting from Iran, the pictures from Iran and the comments from a lot of the major liberal media outlets, that any support from the West is good.

Someone needs to let Obama know that.

501 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:30:54pm

re: #491 Walter L. Newton
BOO! WHO?
Don't cry.

502 enormodome  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:31:28pm

rocks and land are pushing up water.

503 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:31:30pm

Yeah- "imposing" democracy on Iraq really backfired, what with all those purple fingers and people walking dozens of miles to cast a ballot. What a fiasco!

////

504 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:31:34pm

re: #501 pingjockey

BOO! WHO?
Don't cry.

I'm not.

505 SteveC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:31:39pm

re: #492 lincolntf

Hi all.
Are we still pretending that Obama has any influence on the events in Iran or are we already resigned to the fact that he's a fucking tool who wouldn't know real world politics if they bit him in the crack pipe?

Still pretending. It draws out the trolls for a quick kill. We've got a massive Troll-b-que planned for the overnight thread!

506 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:32:08pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

Ooh. That's going to scare them mullahs, yessirree.

Oh....ok. Well let's just invade and get it the fuck over with then.

And, by the way, actually it would be 'scare those mullahs'.....not them mullahs. Sheesh, where'd you learn English?

507 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:32:12pm

re: #503 Sharmuta

Yeah- "imposing" democracy on Iraq really backfired, what with all those purple fingers and people walking dozens of miles to cast a ballot. What a fiasco!

////

Tell that to Cato.

508 Henchman Ghazi-808  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:32:26pm

A government's validity is only as worthy as the consent of it's people.

509 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:32:34pm

re: #506 LGoPs

And, by the way, actually it would be 'scare those mullahs'.....not them mullahs. Sheesh, where'd you learn English?

Jeremiah Wright.

510 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:32:40pm

Freedom doesn't need to be imposed- people want to live free.

511 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:32:43pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

The stalking of people from one thread to the next, trying to chase them off the blog, endless petty squabbling will not end well. It's boring to most people. Those of us who've been here long enough know how this stuff ends up.
/just sayin'

That's so far from what was happening here. geez!

512 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:32:53pm

re: #502 enormodome

rocks and land are pushing up water.

The osprey land only in the mist!

513 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:32:58pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

"Stalking"? Grow up, Killgore!

514 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:33:06pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

The stalking of people from one thread to the next, trying to chase them off the blog, endless petty squabbling will not end well. It's boring to most people. Those of us who've been here long enough know how this stuff ends up.
/just sayin'

Who's stalking who is the bigger question. Who is condescending and making sweeping accusations and picking apart the smallest of details? Who makes the accusations that we are "armchair generals?"

515 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:33:07pm

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

Can't. He ran away, tail between his legs.

516 J.S.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:33:40pm

re: #499 unrealizedviewpoint

oops. Sorry...(imo, I think there are way too many unknowns operating here... and it starts with "it's a foreign culture." Even the use of the terms "freedom" or "liberty" does not necessarily translate into the same ideas as Westerners have..)

517 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:33:55pm

We can't impose our values on other countries.

Except Israel.

STOP BUILDING THOSE HOUSES!

/

518 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:33:56pm

re: #510 Sharmuta

Freedom doesn't need to be imposed- people want to live free.

Well, some do. I think that many actually don't really care one way or the other. In most Arab countries, for example, I really don't think there's much of a desire for freedom, or for democracy, at this point in history. But the Iranians, I think, want to be free.

519 lincolntf  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:34:02pm

re: #500 Walter L. Newton

I'm expressing my cynicism only because I've been burned so many times before. This spat of demonstrations has brought me where I never thought I'd go again (believing in the Iranian people) so I'm trying to not jinx it at the same time that I'm rooting for it.
Interesting times.

520 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:34:02pm

re: #515 ArmyWife

Were you referring to Cato?

521 TedStriker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:34:10pm

re: #6 Cato the Elder

If he had just said the magic words that McCain would have said, everything would be all better right now.

Nice, well thought out snark....NOT!

/blow me, Cato...

522 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:34:15pm

re: #505 SteveC

Still pretending. It draws out the trolls for a quick kill. We've got a massive Troll-b-que planned for the overnight thread!

That's why I always miss the Troll-b-que's...they're at night.

523 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:34:20pm

re: #503 Sharmuta

please see my response in 468

524 David Simon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:34:34pm

re: #490 Alouette

I can just hear Obama now: "Mr. Netanyahu, tear down this wall!"

He seems to have pleased Jew-hating, bbc/uk Middle East editor, Jeremy Bowen:

US President Barack Obama has taken every opportunity he can to restate his view that the only chance of Middle Eastern peace lies with the creation of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

Had Mr Netanyahu been prepared to concede the principle of some form of statehood for Palestinians after the Israeli elections in February he might have emerged with a centre-right coalition rather than one dominated by the hard right.

But he did not feel he had to until the Americans indicated he should.

The Israeli prime minister's body language suggested that he was doing it under diplomatic duress.

One Israeli journalist observed that he looked like someone vomiting up the words "Palestinian state".

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

525 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:34:37pm

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

Tell that to Cato.

You can tell facts to Cato, but you can't make him listen.

526 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:34:42pm

re: #498 J.S.
I don't. It's what I hope. Seeing as how Iran has a very young demographic, I can't see 20 and 30 somethings settling down happily under the restrictions that have been placed upon them. Most of the population has been born after the late unlamented Ayatollah Khomeni.

527 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:35:00pm

Paul Simon

for the Persians

528 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:35:12pm

re: #520 Macker

Yes. He'll be back though, to spread his form of good cheer.

529 SteveC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:35:13pm

re: #510 Sharmuta

Freedom doesn't need to be imposed- people want to live free.

All the world over, so easy to see
People everywhere just wanna be free
Listen, please listen, that's the way it should be
Peace in the valley, people got to be free
- The Young Rascals

530 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:35:38pm
531 kynna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:35:39pm

re: #511 unrealizedviewpoint

Who's he talking about?

532 bellamags  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:35:43pm

All we have is what Obama says. When he fails at this, it is catastrophe.

533 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:35:47pm

re: #515 ArmyWife

Can't. He ran away, tail between his legs.

No wonder after the bitch slapping you gave him!

Cheers to you for such fine work! :D

534 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:36:08pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

The stalking of people from one thread to the next, trying to chase them off the blog, endless petty squabbling will not end well. It's boring to most people. Those of us who've been here long enough know how this stuff ends up.
/just sayin'

To what are your referring, exactly?

535 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:37:22pm

re: #530 buzzsawmonkey

Well, golly, look what happened to us with that housing boom and all.

But it's different Over There. The Israelis build housing. The Palis go "boom".

536 NelsFree  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:37:28pm

re: #493 karmic_inquisitor

I'm calling TOTUS for you right now!
/

537 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:37:41pm

re: #534 Occasional Reader

Petty squabbling about what 'tenants' we would prefer our President to speak in support of.

538 SteveC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:38:01pm

re: #522 unrealizedviewpoint

That's why I always miss the Troll-b-que's...they're at night.

You know the night time is the right time to be with the one you love! (That's what Ray Charles told me)

539 neocon hippie  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:38:07pm

Imposing democracy really backfired in Japan in the late 40's.

/

540 kynna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:38:11pm

re: #534 Occasional Reader

I want to know this too. There's drama goin' on and I'm missing it!

541 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:38:27pm

re: #537 jaunte

Yeah, every time I see him on a thread actively posting I go into lurk mode.

542 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:38:38pm

re: #533 FurryOldGuyJeans

Thanks. My intention wasn't to be ugly, but you'd think my nic would be a big clue that "armchair General" might strike a nerve.

543 HelloDare  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:38:48pm

re: #539 neocon hippie

Imposing democracy really backfired in Japan in the late 40's.

/

Yeah, they sunk our car industry. /

544 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:38:49pm

re: #516 J.S.

oops. Sorry...(imo, I think there are way too many unknowns operating here... and it starts with "it's a foreign culture." Even the use of the terms "freedom" or "liberty" does not necessarily translate into the same ideas as Westerners have..)

I suspect we are many many generations away from these words freedom & liberty meaning the same in the ME as they do in the West.
So darn sad.

545 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:39:26pm

re: #516 J.S.

We live in a global world. That said, there are degrees of difference in how sophisticated people in various countries are. You can find ignorant people on the streets of NYC whose "culture" you wouldn't recognize. The NYC school system has to teach kids in a couple of hundred different languages until they learn English.

And on 9/11, some Brooklyn residents danced in the streets to celebrate the destruction of the Twin Towers, the smoke from which they could see from their neighborhood. I won't tell you what ethnicity they were. You can figure that out for yourself. Another ethnic group told them to get off the street. They complied.

The Iranian youth know what freedom and democracy are, at least in general concept. So do Iranian religious extremists, although they hold those concepts in contempt. Don't patronize the kids.

546 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:39:27pm

re: #535 Occasional Reader

But it's different Over There. The Israelis build housing. The Palis go "boom".

In Palestinian Gaza, house booms you.

/Yakof bin S'mir N'Auf

547 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:39:30pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

The stalking of people from one thread to the next, trying to chase them off the blog, endless petty squabbling will not end well. It's boring to most people. Those of us who've been here long enough know how this stuff ends up.
/just sayin'

Who stalking who today? A few weeks ago you let go a rank that I was stalking you, and now, you're on this topic again.

What's your problem? If you have something to say, then say it and stop acting like some little kid in the school yard whining to the teacher.

Just because people disagree with each other here, doesn't mean they can't continue to state opinions. Hell, some days people are all over me about something, the next day, we agree.

That's fucking life, get with the plan.

548 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:39:45pm

re: #542 ArmyWife

Thanks. My intention wasn't to be ugly, but you'd think my nic would be a big clue that "armchair General" might strike a nerve.

peace sista

549 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:39:53pm

re: #537 jaunte

Petty squabbling about what 'tenants' we would prefer our President to speak in support of.

Of the subjects I would speak of in lieu, tenants would be a Major, or perhaps even a General, topic.

550 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:39:58pm

re: #488 sattv4u2

and vice versa

I fear that is wishful thinking. The regime is mobilizing militia and busing in guns & muscle right now. The regime is throwing money around and assuring the loyalty of the praetorians.

While a successful revolution that leads to democratic governance in Iran would be outstanding I am skeptical it can be obtained without a long and bloody struggle.

551 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:40:04pm

FrenchPres.Sarkozy condemned violence, arrests, restricted public liberties & wants 'full light' shed on #iranelection [Link: bit.ly...]

[Link: twitter.com...]

Almost a flying pig moment when the French President has more balls than the American President.

552 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:40:09pm

re: #541 BlueCanuck

Yeah, every time I see him on a thread actively posting I go into lurk mode.

The "well, what would you do in his place" question is always difficult, given that none of us are privy to the information resources of the President.

553 Joel  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:40:18pm

More mushy platitudes from the babbling wimp.

554 lincolntf  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:40:24pm

re: #534 Occasional Reader

Oooh, call on me! Call on me!...
Tea Parties!

Actually. I just got here so I have no idea what you're talking about, but when in doubt, count on Tea Party disinformation from KT.
It's his little thing.

555 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:40:25pm

re: #537 jaunte

Petty squabbling about what 'tenants' we would prefer our President to speak in support of.

I see fiercely voiced disagreements; I don't see "stalking".

556 ArmyWife  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:40:57pm

re: #551 Sharmuta

ay yi yi.

557 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:41:44pm

re: #551 Sharmuta

FrenchPres.Sarkozy condemned violence, arrests, restricted public liberties & wants 'full light' shed on #iranelection [Link: bit.ly...]

[Link: twitter.com...]

Almost a flying pig moment when the French President has more balls than the American President.

I had a feeling this would happen. Good for Sarkozy.

558 horse  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:42:16pm

Just watched this. Before reading the 500+ posts above, I would say he threaded the needle pretty well, conveying our concern about violence against those protesting peacefully, while not taking a definitive side in the internal conflict. His comments were just about right given the circumstances. I don't like him, but I think he did well in that statement.

In his second statement about US-Iran relations, he appeared like someone who has learned a hell of a lot in a short time, an idealist who has been mugged by reality. Now, if only he would get mugged by reality in the area of economics, free enterprise and the proper role of government, we might stop losing jobs.

559 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:42:20pm

re: #555 Occasional Reader

It's hard to see people here if they aren't commenting.

560 Henchman Ghazi-808  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:42:21pm

re: #502 enormodome

WTF does that mean?

561 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:42:30pm

re: #552 jaunte

The "well, what would you do in his place" question is always difficult, given that none of us are privy to the information resources of the President.

it's supreme condescending...gag me

562 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:42:44pm

re: #542 ArmyWife

Thanks. My intention wasn't to be ugly, but you'd think my nic would be a big clue that "armchair General" might strike a nerve.

He needed a dose of reality, and you supplied it. No need to apologize. :)

I'm former Navy myself, but anyone that puts on the BDU, or those they leave behind, deserves nothing but respect.

563 Tarkus289  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:42:56pm

re: #551 Sharmuta

That seems to be happening a lot lately.

564 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:43:13pm

re: #398 FurryOldGuyJeans

He's realized he got pwned and now wants to sulk in peace.

LOL,
he must like to get trounced.
he is always inciting a pile on by insulting somebody in the most hateful way.

565 captdiggs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:43:30pm

Three days late and very weak.

566 Unbound  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:43:33pm

re: #454 Walter L. Newton

Let's cue into one of your statements above. How have we done this? What radical postures have changed in Iran, or let's say, in the last 6 months. A little proof would go a long way in showing us that you are not just sucking air.

The proof is simple and obvious... relations between the two countries have improved in the last six months, and now the president of Iran, a radical man that enjoyed tremendous support just a couple of years ago, has become marginalized within his own country. Iranians no longer see the USA as a direct threat to their sovereignty (as they felt during most of the Iraq war) and are willing to loosen up and be less radical as a country overall. In other words, by being less threatening, the USA has moved Iran in the direction that the USA hoped that Iran would move.

567 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:43:50pm

re: #555 Occasional Reader

I see fiercely voiced disagreements; I don't see "stalking".

Neither do I, but that hasn't stopped some people from shrieking about boogey-men.

568 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:43:56pm

Obama's reference to the "Iranian authorities are investigating alleged election irregularities" leaves me... oh... troubled (to use the mot du jour).

It suggests that the rule of law, and a government based on a balance of powers, currently exists in Iran. It's ridiculous.

And, sadly, it suggests to me that Obama is more interested in playing nice with the Iranian power structure than anything else.

569 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:44:07pm

re: #560 BigPapa

WTF does that mean?

I downdinged it because I don't understand it.
I reserve the right to reverse my ding however.

570 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:44:09pm

re: #566 Unbound

what the hell are you talking about?

and you know this how

571 NelsFree  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:44:11pm

Um, I sense a new thread approaching. Just a feeling...
/?

572 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:45:01pm

re: #567 FurryOldGuyJeans

Neither do I, but that hasn't stopped some people from shrieking about boogey-men.

I'm your boogey-man. That's what I am. And I'm here to. Do whatever I can.

573 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:45:02pm

re: #566 Unbound

The proof is simple and obvious... relations between the two countries have improved in the last six months, and now the president of Iran, a radical man that enjoyed tremendous support just a couple of years ago, has become marginalized within his own country. Iranians no longer see the USA as a direct threat to their sovereignty (as they felt during most of the Iraq war) and are willing to loosen up and be less radical as a country overall. In other words, by being less threatening, the USA has moved Iran in the direction that the USA hoped that Iran would move.

hahaha!...what a load of bullshit, that's simple and obvious

574 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:45:25pm

re: #552 jaunte

The "well, what would you do in his place" question is always difficult, given that none of us are privy to the information resources of the President.

And he provides nothing of what he would do, just wants to be an interrogator of others.

575 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:45:48pm

re: #573 albusteve

hahaha!...what a load of bullshit, that's simple and obvious

What is it open mike night today? /

576 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:46:02pm

re: #566 Unbound

You truly believe in the Magic of Obama.

It's... touching.

577 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:46:29pm

re: #576 Occasional Reader

6 months, and the world has changed...

578 lincolntf  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:46:35pm

re: #573 albusteve

They always love the Dictators. No reason asking why.

579 Tarkus289  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:46:48pm

re: #577 jaunte

...for the worse.

580 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:46:57pm

re: #572 Occasional Reader

I'm your boogey-man. That's what I am. And I'm here to. Do whatever I can.

I thought you were the Gangster of Love

581 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:47:03pm

re: #576 Occasional Reader

As granny said, "it's teched in the head!"

582 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:47:12pm

re: #579 Tarkus289

...for the worse.

Jimmy Carter Redux

583 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:47:50pm

re: #566 Unbound

Do you actually think before you start posting that bullshit? Or do you just let it dribble out?

584 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:47:56pm

re: #566 Unbound

relations between the two countries have improved in the last six months

That's an interesting way to describe Obama humiliating the US by begging the mullahcracy "Love Me!", and having them laugh in his face in return.

585 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:48:22pm

re: #583 FurryOldGuyJeans

Do you actually think before you start posting that bullshit? Or do you just let it dribble out?

Unbound somehow has access to the thoughts of every person in Iran directly.

586 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:48:30pm

re: #551 Sharmuta

FrenchPres.Sarkozy condemned violence, arrests, restricted public liberties & wants 'full light' shed on #iranelection [Link: bit.ly...]

[Link: twitter.com...]

Almost a flying pig moment when the French President has more balls than the American President.

"Cry Hamhock and let slip the Hogs of War"

587 avanti  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:48:50pm

re: #489 Killgore Trout

The stalking of people from one thread to the next, trying to chase them off the blog, endless petty squabbling will not end well. It's boring to most people. Those of us who've been here long enough know how this stuff ends up.
/just sayin'

It's much safer to set on the sidelines and just read the thread before deciding if your opinion will get a hearing or a dog pile. I watched the President's statement, and was curious to see how the bulk of the Lizard's would react. I now know that my agreement with his measured response is only shared by a few here.

588 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:49:03pm

re: #584 Occasional Reader

That's an interesting way to describe Obama humiliating the US by begging the mullahcracy "Love Me!", and having them laugh in his face in return.

Love is a many-splendored thing.

589 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:49:41pm

re: #582 pegcity

Jimmy Carter Redux

Obama is doing one hell of a bang-up job of rehabilitating that Disaster of the 70's.

590 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:49:52pm

re: #588 OldLineTexan

Love is a many-splendored thing.

my question is how much dope do you need to Smoke before you become a hopey changey like Unbound?

591 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:49:59pm

re: #566 Unbound

The proof is simple and obvious... relations between the two countries have improved in the last six months, and now the president of Iran, a radical man that enjoyed tremendous support just a couple of years ago, has become marginalized within his own country. Iranians no longer see the USA as a direct threat to their sovereignty (as they felt during most of the Iraq war) and are willing to loosen up and be less radical as a country overall. In other words, by being less threatening, the USA has moved Iran in the direction that the USA hoped that Iran would move.

I cannot even begin to figure out how you got from there to here.

1. Have relations between the two countries improved in the last six months? I'm not convinced they have . . .in what way have they improved. What are you basing that on?
2. Now the President of Iran, who enjoyed great support, has become marginalized - and that is related to the 'improved" relations with the U.S. - how exactly?
3. I'm not sure the Iranians saw the US as a direct threat to their sovereignty - perhaps that same President of Iran saw us that way - but the people? Is that why they are asking us now for support?

592 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:50:40pm

Don't want to over excite any of the religious folks here, but a hatchling just got comment 666 on the previous thread on her first post, a post that just happens to namecheck the heathen God 'Jove'. ;-)

593 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:50:55pm

re: #587 avanti

You sit on the sidelines, Obama sits on the sidelines, what synchronicity!

594 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:51:11pm

From Obama's comments today. A simple re-wording:

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Obviously all of us have been watching the news from North Korea. And I want to start off by being very clear that it is up to North Koreans to make decisions about who North Korea's leaders will be; that we respect North Korean sovereignty and want to avoid the United States being the issue inside of North Korea, which sometimes the United States can be a handy political football -- or discussions with the United States.

595 albusteve  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:51:28pm

re: #567 FurryOldGuyJeans

Neither do I, but that hasn't stopped some people from shrieking about boogey-men.

it's a form of incontinence....the trots so to speak

596 jaunte  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:51:28pm

re: #592 Jimmah

Great Caesar's Ghost!

597 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:51:41pm

re: #10 buzzsawmonkey

Nice to know he respects Iranian sovereignty.

When will he get around to respecting Israel's?

Oh, bravo, buzz! Bravo!

598 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:52:47pm

...and for fuck's sake be nice to the hatchlings. If you guys pile on and downding every hatchling who makes a perfectly reasonable comment they're going to leave.

599 Reluctant Democrat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:53:16pm

APPEASER!

600 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:53:41pm

Je suis allee au upthread.

601 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:53:55pm

re: #598 Killgore Trout

...and for fuck's sake be nice to the hatchlings. If you guys pile on and downding every hatchling who makes a perfectly reasonable comment they're going to leave.

You can't possibly be talking about "Unbound" can you?

602 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:54:07pm

re: #598 Killgore Trout

Only reasonable to YOU.

603 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:54:43pm

re: #566 Unbound

You are placing the credit for an awful lot of change on just the past few months. The change in attitudes in Iran has been brewing for many years, regardless of expressions of government organised anti-west 'outrage'.

604 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:54:44pm

re: #601 reine.de.tout

You can't possibly be talking about "Unbound" can you?

we should all be nice to Unhinged.

605 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:54:50pm

I find the idea that "If we support the people in the street we will give the Mullahs justification for a backlash" as fundamentally offensive.

It is offensive to thinking people.

For one, who is going to suddenly give the Mullahs credibility because the Mullahs will have an excuse blame the US? Who? Who would ignore what is obviously a spontaneous and massive reaction to the rigging of an election my the Mullahs?

Second, what are we placing at risk? All the progress we have made with Iran by pleading with them and trying to engage them? Asked another way: exactly how was it that we moderated the behaviour of the Iranians given the fact that they took the action of rigging their election? Wouldn't a moderated / less threatened government be willing to accept the election results (especially since both candidates had to get approval from the Mullahs to run in the first place?).

The Obamatons are floating this idea over the interwebs with the idea of preserving as many opportunities to avoid choices yet still come out as "thoughtful" "deliberate" and "steady".

Like just about any other set of platitudes they retail, one only has to scratch at the veneer and ask for substance to find that there is nother there but a P.R. strategy.

Americans before us did not sacrifice to simply give a personality cult the opportunity to score more PR wins. Our values are clear. The choices are clear. The president is absent.

606 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:55:05pm

re: #601 reine.de.tout

You can't possibly be talking about "Unbound" can you?

And if he is, so what? Spewing bullshit is still spewing bullshit.

607 jim in virginia  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:55:38pm

re: #580 albusteve

I thought you were the Gangster of Love


I thoght he was Maurice.

608 John Neverbend  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:55:48pm

re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can someone sum it up in 15 words or less? I reaaaaally don't want to watch.

"My brow is furrowed with concern. The world is watching. Your voice should be heard." (cue "That's all Folks" and Looney Tunes music).

609 Zimriel  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:56:12pm

Here are my thoughts, before reading the comments here:

This is weak tea from Obama. He starts out with "sovereignty" - the language of States' Rights.

He is "troubled" by the "violence" - which just sort of spontaneously happens. And he talks about the basijis' actual betrayal of the people, in terms of people "feeling betrayed".

And I've noticed whenever he talks "tough" - it is always in the form of "tough diplomacy", "tough dialogue". In other words, he's hiding up his vacillation behind manly words.

Somewhere in the world, Chris Hitchens just poured himself a stiff drink after listening to this humiliating display of weakness from the leader of the free world.

610 lincolntf  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:56:35pm

re: #598 Killgore Trout

Aren't you the one who gets off on down-dings?
Save your advice for people who don't know your routine. It gets boring for the rest of us.

611 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:57:39pm

re: #551 Sharmuta

FrenchPres.Sarkozy condemned violence, arrests, restricted public liberties & wants 'full light' shed on #iranelection [Link: bit.ly...]

[Link: twitter.com...]
Dear President Sarkozy, forgive me for being just a backwards American rube, so the best I can muster is...
merci beaucoup!

Almost a flying pig moment when the French President has more balls than the American President.

612 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:58:00pm

To all the 101st Keyboarders, armchair generals, circle-jerking second-guessers and semi-professional ODSers here tonight who think they know what I think and are busily shoving (mostly illiterate) words in my mouth, here is what I actually think.

Reposted, with edits, from an earlier thread.

Do not get me wrong: I hope beyond hope that this may turn into a kind of avalanche revolution. That if the regular army is called in they will refuse to shoot at kids and women and brothers and sisters. That someone has a strategy and tactic beyond tweeting and offering themselves as targets for the Basij. That a radio or teevee station or two get turned. That things can be sabotaged. That a few many mullahs get stripped and run naked through the streets of Qom. That truth and justice may prevail.

All of these things are now in the hands of the Iranians themselves. As JCM noted independently in a comment above. If you want to watch the opposition crumble, run to the Senate floor, the State Department podium, the White House lawn, and scream at the top of your lungs that the would-be revolutionaries (at this point, sadly, they're still just protesters) are our guys and we support them with our ever-effective empty platitudes and sternly worded memos. Watch, then, in horror as people who might support the uprising turn on the protesters as agents of the West. Watch the army choose sides in favor of a government they see as threatened from outside. Watch the mullahs go from scared beasts to bared teeth and authorize the use of any and all deadly force.

Then pat yourselves on the back for having made our leaders righteously spout off, writing checks with their mouths that their asses can't cash.

Or. Wait and see if the momentum can sustain itself, and choose your moment for jumping in when it may stand a chance of doing any good at all.

For tweeters, DOS hackers working against Iran's government web, people with links into Iran, that time has come. For a sitting president of the country against which the Iranians have been conditioned to shout "marg bar Amrika", not yet.

Now back to your regularly scheduled, mouth-foaming, impotent, infinite hatred of Obama. Sorry for the interruption.

613 lincolntf  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:59:25pm

re: #612 Cato the Elder

When you get down from your cross, I'll be the first to kiiss your psychic boo-boos.
Poor little thing.

614 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:59:42pm

re: #598 Killgore Trout

...and for fuck's sake be nice to the hatchlings. If you guys pile on and downding every hatchling who makes a perfectly reasonable comment they're going to leave.

Yep, although I disagreed with that commenter, it's an opportunity for debate, not accusations of 'troll!' etc.

615 Zimriel  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:59:53pm

re: #566 Unbound

The proof is simple and obvious... relations between the two countries have improved in the last six months

Dude, you gotta hook me up with your dealer.

616 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:01:22pm

re: #573 albusteve

hahaha!...what a load of bullshit, that's simple and obvious

what a perfect response.

617 Truck Monkey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:03:20pm

re: #506 LGoPs

Oh....ok. Well let's just invade and get it the fuck over with then.

And, by the way, actually it would be 'scare those mullahs'.....not them mullahs. Sheesh, where'd you learn English?

He iz jus spellin it so us little folks unnerstand it now dontcha know.

618 kaymad  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:07:49pm

I liked his opening line...."Uhm...let me be clear...uhm". I thought Obama seemed bored and a little muddled, but I guess there wasn't much more he could say although Reagan's line on the soviet union comes to mind, "We begin bombing in 5 minutes", that might have worked...just joking, people!

Off subject, have you noticed how Obama drags out his S's? He almost whistles them...that bugs me and since I hear him every hour of everyday I'm bugged a lot.

619 Zimriel  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:08:04pm

re: #19 sattv4u2

At least O told us right off that he was being "very clear"

It's his way of warning us, "INCOMING BULLSHIT!" It's like a golfer yelling "fore".

620 horse  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:09:47pm

re: #566 Unbound

The proof is simple and obvious... relations between the two countries have improved in the last six months, and now the president of Iran, a radical man that enjoyed tremendous support just a couple of years ago, has become marginalized within his own country. Iranians no longer see the USA as a direct threat to their sovereignty (as they felt during most of the Iraq war) and are willing to loosen up and be less radical as a country overall. In other words, by being less threatening, the USA has moved Iran in the direction that the USA hoped that Iran would move.

It's a pretty intelligent crowd here at LGF. You can not make broad claims that run against facts and expect anyone to believe your arguement at face value. For example, the US military still has Iran surrounded on three sides with the same amount of forces as during the last 7 years, and have had a strong overall military presence next door for the last 18+ years. Any hostile actions on the part of Iran would result in the same response from the USA today as we would have taken during the last 18 years. We are no more or less a threat to them today than we have been for 18 years. As a result of there being no actual change in our "threatness" toward Iran, your entire statement has no foundation.

621 Zooty Zoot  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:10:08pm

If Iran had nukes, and Mahmoud realized the end was in sight for his regime, I have no doubt he would launch them in a westerly direction. This is why it's so critical that Barack wake up and taste reality sooner rather than later.

622 David Simon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:11:00pm

re: #566 Unbound

The proof is simple and obvious... relations between the two countries have improved in the last six months, and now the president of Iran, a radical man that enjoyed tremendous support just a couple of years ago, has become marginalized within his own country. Iranians no longer see the USA as a direct threat to their sovereignty (as they felt during most of the Iraq war) and are willing to loosen up and be less radical as a country overall. In other words, by being less threatening, the USA has moved Iran in the direction that the USA hoped that Iran would move.

You remind me of the pollyannish dupes who mourned the lost "opportunity" when Iran was initially cooperative shortly after the rout of the Taliban. Iran was helpful during the Bonn Conference because it had an interest in not having a failed state on its eastern border, not because it wanted rapprochement with the West.

When you look at Iran's support of Hezbollah and Hamas and its pursuit of nuclear technology, it's pretty clear that regional hegemony is its goal. They'll pretend otherwise so long as credulous fools go along with their charade.

623 TedStriker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:11:45pm

re: #340 Walter L. Newton

Well, Cato, it is evident that you are wrong, at least, you are not made of the same mettle as many of the Iranians that we have seen in text and pictures today.

It is evident that they do respect support from the west, as we have seen from on the spot "twittering," emails, cell phone text messages, photographs and videos.

We have seen signs in ENGLISH, supporting an open and fair election and against the machinations of the current government.

We have had comments right here, on LGF, thanking us for and asking us for our moral support.

We have even heard news outlets, normally luke warm about Iran, news outlets, decry the tactics of the Iranian government over the last few days, barring reporters, jamming transmissions, cutting off cell phone access and trying to shut down the free flow of information.

And, we have seen YOU, for the last two days, be basically a majority of one, who sees nothing positive in giving any support to the Iranians, either personally or from western governments.

Considering the points I have outlined above, you are pissing in the wind, alone and a lonely voice for defeat.

To bad.

Spot on, Walter.

Cato can just go piss up a rope...

624 kaymad  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:13:42pm

re: #566 Unbound

The proof is simple and obvious... relations between the two countries have improved in the last six months, and now the president of Iran, a radical man that enjoyed tremendous support just a couple of years ago, has become marginalized within his own country. Iranians no longer see the USA as a direct threat to their sovereignty (as they felt during most of the Iraq war) and are willing to loosen up and be less radical as a country overall. In other words, by being less threatening, the USA has moved Iran in the direction that the USA hoped that Iran would move.

Actually, in a recent survey of Iranians, there is a 10 percent drop in approval for the USA...it was a whopping 38 percent under Bush, now down to 28 percent...so I don't know where you get your info on this new found love.

625 horse  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:19:40pm

re: #612 Cato the Elder

Good reply, other than the inaccuracies in your last paragraph. I can be happy with Obama's statement tonight and believe it was about as good as could be done given the difficult circumstances, yet still maintain mouth foaming, impotent, infinite hatred for him for a number of other reasons. ;)

626 Unbound  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:20:36pm

re: #598 Killgore Trout

...and for fuck's sake be nice to the hatchlings. If you guys pile on and downding every hatchling who makes a perfectly reasonable comment they're going to leave.

Thanks for the support.

I have been silently reading the commentary in this Blog for a long time, but was never able to participate because I never caught one of the brief membership windows in order to sign up. That's what makes the calls of "Troll" and "Sniiper" so hilarious to me.

Do I know what I am stepping into? I sure do... many (most?) people on this Blog will disagree with me, and that is fine.

627 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:21:23pm

re: #560 BigPapa

WTF does that mean?

Not to worry, it's already gotten the stick!

628 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:24:56pm

re: #612 Cato the Elder

Cato -

I respect you and your opinion. But I disagree.

While normally one can see the USA as the villain in the propaganda theater in countries such as Iran, and whereas such would normally be effective in cowing the unthinking masses what we now have is a tipping point.

The Iranians are now considering existential choices. This is not the normal environment where a reasonable person with responsibilities choses to keep his mouth shut and go along with the government rather than end up in trouble.

This is a time where the momentum of popular uprising has a real chance of changing the course of their future. It is actually a hard choice for the typical Iranian to make - they have to muster the courage to look past the obvious risks to themselves and their families and go into the streets.

Few of us have ever had to make such a decision. Fewer still have chosen to run those risks. Instead, we enjoy the fruits of that risk taking which was done for us by those who came before us.

Barack Obama is a man gifted in oratory and political timing. Precisely because he isn't a neocon or hawk, what I see very clearly right now is someone who could give "cover" to those who would take those risks and cover to those who would encourage others to do so. He represents an internationalism that communism once represented - by declaring the Mullahs as clearly illegitimate and that such is not his verdict but that of his people, the whole of international opinion (save russia, north korea and china) would fall into line.

Then he could show the world that despots can be deposed without the US having to invade and win more points for his team.

I see him as not chosing to do this because he sees too much risk to himself and his legacy. I don't buy the "football" analogy - we are well past anything that a propaganda machine can contain. And the more hesitent the population, the more strength the thugs can muster.

This is revolution. Obama is not a revolutionary.

Oh - and McCain is.

629 Unbound  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:28:52pm

re: #624 kaymad

Actually, in a recent survey of Iranians, there is a 10 percent drop in approval for the USA...it was a whopping 38 percent under Bush, now down to 28 percent...so I don't know where you get your info on this new found love.

Since your figures are so precise, I would love to see the source for those figures please?

630 Unbound  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:37:19pm

re: #622 David Simon

You remind me of the pollyannish dupes who mourned the lost "opportunity" when Iran was initially cooperative shortly after the rout of the Taliban. Iran was helpful during the Bonn Conference because it had an interest in not having a failed state on its eastern border, not because it wanted rapprochement with the West.

Yeah, and we have seen how well the war against the Taliban has succeded without the cooperation of the Iranians. Not!

So it was better to alienate Iran and have their active participation against the coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan than try to enlist their participation. Brilliant strategy.

People on this board are happy to use WWII as an example for many things... well, maybe I should use the USA alliance with Russia against Germany in WWII as an example in this case.

631 Kaymad  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:37:58pm

re: #629 Unbound

I could tell you my source, but what would be more fun is for you to google, do some checking and come back and play gotcha if I'm wrong. Who knows, maybe I made it all up and wasted your time? It would be more fun to play it that way. I may be off by 2 points...or maybe 10 on the minus or plus side.

632 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:39:35pm

re: #630 Unbound

so basically you think we should enlist Hezbollah to help defuse the Taliban?

Why not ask Al Queda to help out as well

633 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:42:50pm
634 TedStriker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:43:41pm

re: #576 Occasional Reader

You truly believe in the Magic of Obama.

It's... touching.

It's touching in the way one get "touched " by someone lurking around in a dirty trench coat...downright creepy.

635 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:44:25pm

#609 Zimriel

Here are my thoughts, before reading the comments here:

This is weak tea from Obama. He starts out with "sovereignty" - the language of States' Rights.

He is "troubled" by the "violence" - which just sort of spontaneously happens. And he talks about the basijis' actual betrayal of the people, in terms of people "feeling betrayed".

And I've noticed whenever he talks "tough" - it is always in the form of "tough diplomacy", "tough dialogue". In other words, he's hiding up his vacillation behind manly words.

Somewhere in the world, Chris Hitchens just poured himself a stiff drink after listening to this humiliating display of weakness from the leader of the free world.

Outstanding. You are right on. On an earlier thread I posted about the Brit's getting it before we do, calling Obama cowardly and lily-livered!

This article is written by Brits, who, btw, were pretty supportive of The One during the campaign. Apparently not anymore. How long before our myopic press gets it, I wonder.

636 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:45:07pm

re: #612 Cato the Elder

To all the 101st Keyboarders, armchair generals, circle-jerking second-guessers and semi-professional ODSers here tonight who think they know what I think and are busily shoving (mostly illiterate) words in my mouth, here is what I actually think.

Has anyone ever told you that you would make a wonderful State Department analyst?

;)

637 onepistoffyid  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:50:23pm

re: #10 buzzsawmonkey

Nice to know he respects Iranian sovereignty.

When will he get around to respecting Israel's?

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER.

638 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:51:18pm

#631 Kaymad

I could tell you my source, but what would be more fun is for you to google, do some checking and come back and play gotcha if I'm wrong. Who knows, maybe I made it all up and wasted your time? It would be more fun to play it that way. I may be off by 2 points...or maybe 10 on the minus or plus side.

The demographic here at lizard nation is made up of mostly mature, intelligent, and well-written individuals who believe posters are responsible for what they write. It's not our job to fact-check you. It's our custom to provide links; it's the lizard way.

639 Al in St. Lou  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:53:35pm

Frankly, it's frightening to see that the rest of the world can perceive how unprepared our President is. What will they plan and what plans will they carry out, expecting no sign of resolute action from the U.S.?

640 reaperatty  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:55:14pm

Weak, pathetic and sad.

641 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:55:15pm

re: #629 Unbound

Since your figures are so precise, I would love to see the source for those figures please?

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

As CBS mentions, Accurate public opinion polls are a rarity in Iran, whose Islamic rulers enforce strict rules of behavior and where dissidents are often imprisoned.

642 ProUSA  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:08:10pm

re: #13 J.S.

I think Obama has spoken appropriately, given the circumstances. He can't be seen as taking sides, for fear of being accused of meddling in a foreign country's internal affairs, yet he still came out and expressed his dismay with respect to the violence going on against the peaceful demonstrators.

Yet, he referred to the violence from the para-military thugs as irregularities to be investigated. Nice one. The thugs are an arm of the theocratic totalitarians, who do their bidding. It's not an irregularity. Has the Zero not heard that they still hang gays, stone women, and generally disrespect most human rights (especially of women)?

He acts as if the democrats just lost an Illinois election and the lefties were disappointed and peacefully demonstrated in Chicago -- and one cop committed an irregularity with an AK-47.

But, the Zero did pretty well without a teleprompter. If he just talks slow enough, he can get through short, one-issue talks.

643 Maui Girl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:13:03pm

re: #493 karmic_inquisitor

Okay. Who are you, really? Great statement and so to the point.

644 Maui Girl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:30:38pm

Using one's imagination, I see the following scenario. The masses are revolting in the streets while a small faction of professionally groomed marksmen track down the whereabouts of the Mullahs. The Ayatollah is being watched, enjoying his weak tea and pita bread, through the fine crosshairs of a telescope attached to a highpowered rifle/rocket launcher propped up on the edge of the roof of a building a mile away. The steady even breathing of the sniper can be heard through his microphone as he awaits the signal.

Sigh.....

645 sagehen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:36:11pm

re: #592 Jimmah

hey, the commandment says "no other gods before Me" -- a literal reading (of some translations) doesn't necessarily preclude "lesser gods to fill in for me when I'm not interested."

646 Unbound  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:38:04pm

re: #641 Wendya

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

As CBS mentions, Accurate public opinion polls are a rarity in Iran, whose Islamic rulers enforce strict rules of behavior and where dissidents are often imprisoned.

Thank you for the citation.
Interesting numbers... too bad that the sources of the poll are completely non-independent think-tanks, instead of internationally recognized polling organizations. The poll was conducted by
"Terror Free Tomorrow" - John McCain is a member of the board, need I say more?
"New America Foundation" - composed almost exclusively of Republican bigwigs (Governors, Dept heads... even the Republican guy from Google)

So I would consider those figures highly suspect.

647 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:42:59pm

re: #646 Unbound



So I would consider those figures highly suspect.

They are suspect, first and foremost, because they are coming from a country with no freedoms. You couldn't find a large enough sample who were not afraid they'd be punished for giving an honest answer to a pollster

648 Unbound  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 9:09:01pm

re: #647 Wendya

They are suspect, first and foremost, because they are coming from a country with no freedoms. You couldn't find a large enough sample who were not afraid they'd be punished for giving an honest answer to a pollster

Yes, thanks again.
Many factors go into polling. Fear is an important factor.

In any case, I just can't see how a country that was declared part of "The Axis of Evil" by our previous president could be less positive to the USA now that we have transitioned to a government that many in this Blog consider blatantly pro-Muslim. It would be like Iran getting a pro-western government and the American people hating them even more...

649 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 9:20:12pm

re: #648 Unbound

Yes, thanks again.
Many factors go into polling. Fear is an important factor.

In any case, I just can't see how a country that was declared part of "The Axis of Evil" by our previous president could be less positive to the USA now that we have transitioned to a government that many in this Blog consider blatantly pro-Muslim. It would be like Iran getting a pro-western government and the American people hating them even more...

You sound like the Autorantic Virtual Moonbat

650 captwfcall  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 9:37:53pm

the last thing Obama wants is for the US population to know about what is happening in Iran. Because we would want something to be done about it.

we aren't supposed to see those shouts of 'freedom! freedom!'.

he wants us focused on Afghanistan only. not North Korea, not Iran, not Iraq, not Venezuela. ie. the countries we should be concerned about.

just think though. if twitter or youtube didn't exist, we'd probably not even know about this right now. that's scary. Charles is right. the revolution will be digitized.

651 Caboose  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 9:38:46pm

Dire Straits said it best...

(from their excellent 2nd album, Communique)

Some people get a cheap laugh breaking up the speed limit
Scaring the pedestrians for a minute
Crossing up progress driving on the grass
Leaving just enough room to pass
Sunday driver never took a test
Oh yeah, once upon a time in the west

Yes its no use saying that you don't know nothing
Its still gonna get you if you don't do something
Sitting on a fence that's a dangerous course
Oh, you could even catch a bullet from the peace-keeping force
Even the hero gets a bullet in the chest

Oh yeah, once upon a time in the west

Mother mary your children are slaughtered
Some of you mothers ought to lock up your daughters
Whos protecting the innocenti
Heap big trouble in the land of plenty
Tell me how were gonna do whats best
You guess once upon a time in the west

Oh yeah, once upon a time in the west
Oh yeah, once upon a time in the west
Oh yeah, once upon a time in the west

Once upon a time in the west

652 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 9:39:40pm

Days ago Barack Hussein Obama was talking up the Muslims in Cairo. Today his silence is supporting the Muslim Theocrats in Iran.

653 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 10:01:59pm

Due to the different time zones, this is a late late post!

PB0 has learned his 'presidential' speech from Tony Blair and all the other NuLab politicos here in the UK.
From 'let me be clear' (followed by obfuscation!) to 'moving forward' (meaning 'I don't now anything else to say about this') all is there.

Well, we've had enough of that sort of 'speech' - I hope your great nation will get annoyed by it very soon as well.

654 NY Nana  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 10:08:02pm

re: #653 yma o hyd

And he is about as sincere as David Letterman's alleged apology to Gov. Sarah Palin and her family.

655 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 10:10:25pm

'nite all, and welcome to all the new lizards.

656 kynna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 10:15:13pm

re: #648 Unbound

Yes, thanks again.
Many factors go into polling. Fear is an important factor.

In any case, I just can't see how a country that was declared part of "The Axis of Evil" by our previous president could be less positive to the USA now that we have transitioned to a government that many in this Blog consider blatantly pro-Muslim. It would be like Iran getting a pro-western government and the American people hating them even more...

You are dismissing the poll while not providing any actually data to refute it. You're just giving "stands-to-reason" nonsense. You can't see how Iran could be less friendly toward the US? Well "Iran" is not necessarily the "Iranian government" (as we are seeing live and in techno-color), and so the "Iranian people" might have been more friendly to the US when they US seemed to have a president who championed freedom throughout the world. The "Iranian government"? Not so much.

Show us the data to back up your assertions that Iran is more friendly to the US now than it was six months ago and I'll be happy to look at it. Right now all you're doing is 1.) repeating talking points, and 2.) dismissing actual polling data while providing none of your own to prove your own statements.

I look forward to some informative links. :D

657 Green Helmet Guy  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 12:56:57am

That was frustrating, to listen to him mumble and ramble on incoherently like that. Too choppy and monotonous. Please someone give the man "Telly" the teleprompter.

658 Baldy  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:54:16am

Here's the statement. They removed all the stammering:

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Obviously all of us have been watching the news from Iran. And I want to start off by being very clear that it is up to Iranians to make decisions about who Iran's leaders will be; that we respect Iranian sovereignty and want to avoid the United States being the issue inside of Iran, which sometimes the United States can be a handy political football -- or discussions with the United States.

Having said all that, I am deeply troubled by the violence that I've been seeing on television. I think that the democratic process -- free speech, the ability of people to peacefully dissent -- all those are universal values and need to be respected. And whenever I see violence perpetrated on people who are peacefully dissenting, and whenever the American people see that, I think they're, rightfully, troubled.

My understanding is, is that the Iranian government says that they are going to look into irregularities that have taken place. We weren’t on the ground, we did not have observers there, we did not have international observers on hand, so I can't state definitively one way or another what happened with respect to the election. But what I can say is that there appears to be a sense on the part of people who were so hopeful and so engaged and so committed to democracy who now feel betrayed. And I think it's important that, moving forward, whatever investigations take place are done in a way that is not resulting in bloodshed and is not resulting in people being stifled in expressing their views.

Now, with respect to the United States and our interactions with Iran, I've always believed that as odious as I consider some of President Ahmadinejad's statements, as deep as the differences that exist between the United States and Iran on a range of core issues, that the use of tough, hard-headed diplomacy -- diplomacy with no illusions about Iran and the nature of the differences between our two countries -- is critical when it comes to pursuing a core set of our national security interests, specifically, making sure that we are not seeing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East triggered by Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon; making sure that Iran is not exporting terrorist activity. Those are core interests not just to the United States but I think to a peaceful world in general.

We will continue to pursue a tough, direct dialogue between our two countries, and we'll see where it takes us. But even as we do so, I think it would be wrong for me to be silent about what we've seen on the television over the last few days. And what I would say to those people who put so much hope and energy and optimism into the political process, I would say to them that the world is watching and inspired by their participation, regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was. And they should know that the world is watching.

And particularly to the youth of Iran, I want them to know that we in the United States do not want to make any decisions for the Iranians, but we do believe that the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected

659 Spartacus50  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:16:27am

re: #13 J.S.

I think Obama has spoken appropriately, given the circumstances. He can't be seen as taking sides, for fear of being accused of meddling in a foreign country's internal affairs, yet he still came out and expressed his dismay with respect to the violence going on against the peaceful demonstrators.

This pretty much encapsulates how the modern-day Democrats address human rights; with meaningless platitudes

660 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:22:02am

re: #106 capitalist piglet

I need to listen to it again, but:

I'm trying to figure out what's bothering me about it, because some of it was all right. I think it's the "Gee, we're all so very inspired, watching you struggle and cry out for freedom while being gunned down at random...best of luck to you!" feeling of it. There's nothing behind it but the promise to say tough words later when the dust settles. (Not holding my breath for that, either.)

Maybe that's not really what he was saying - it just felt that way for some reason. I just feel empty. I admit I have a hard time listening to him, and I'll try to stomach it a second time...just not now.

The problem with this "speech", besides the fact He didn't didn't really say anything, is Lord 0bama's spectator attitude. People are killed for the freedoms he say are "universal" and He is content to sit back and watch it all unfold (or does He have people to do that for Him?).
Multi-culti non-judgementalism at the highest levels, no consequences for the perpetrators, no justice for the wronged.

661 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:28:31am

re: #189 buzzsawmonkey

Never saw a purple finger
And I never hope to see one
'Til the day Iran holds elections
And it's really a free one

"Buzzsaw" Gnash?

662 Mikey_Dallas  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:38:01am

It's time for a Presidential Czar, to kinda, you know, be Presidential.

663 Land Shark  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 6:57:58am

re: #660 Mr Spiffy

You nailed what bothers me about Obama's statement. It doesn't really stand for freedom. I hoped for something a little more inspiring but I'm not surprised it was so "middle of the road."

I understand we're limited in what we can do, and if the US is seen as supporting the protesters the Mullah regime may increase it's violence and claim the US is meddling in Iranian affairs. Still, I think he could have less of a waffler and spoken with more conviction.

I don't know if this is a "better to die on your feet than live on your knees" moment for Iran, I suppose we'll see if the momentum of the demonstrations keeps up. My prayers are with the Iranian people.

664 Tats66  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 10:25:23am

Wow, tough diplomacy? dosnt that = strongly worded letter? I really feel like we took some guy that sails a 10 foot skiff on weekends, and handed him the rudder of a filled super tanker to sail through a narrow straight.........

Oh and Cato, who knows what mcCain mighta said, the only difference is the substance, the attitude, and the actual drive behind the president saying it........oh and it helps, at least to me, the the president actually like his own country.

665 Bagua  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 10:51:48am

What a mealy mouthed rambling of legalese and PC nonsense. Blood is flowing in the streets of Tehran as the civilian population defies the thugs and their henchmen and mercenaries, and the leader of the free world is talking about negotiations and non-interference.

666 brain-washed sheeple  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 11:08:10am

Any politician, President or not, who would sacrifice taking a stand for the sake of political expediency should be ashamed of themselves and hold cheaply the office with which they've been entrusted. People are dying and Obama's hemming and hawing because this might present some diplomatic challenges later.

Shame.


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