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What Right Wing Extremists? (Update)

US News • Views: 1,833

Here’s an update on the story of the anti-immigrant “activists” arrested on suspicion of murdering two people (including a 9-year old girl) in southern Arizona; Jason Eugene Bush (aka “Gunny”) has now been charged with another murder: the 1997 stabbing of a homeless Mexican man.

An anti-immigration crusader, who faces murder charges along with a former Everett woman in a double slaying in Arizona, was also charged Friday in a 1997 Wenatchee killing.

Jason Eugene Bush, 34, was charged in Chelan County Superior Court in the stabbing death of Hector Lopez Partida, 29, a homeless man.

An informant told Wenatchee police that Bush had bragged about killing “a Mexican” behind a store and that Bush had ties to white supremacist groups, according to court documents. Prosecutors say he was linked to the death through DNA evidence.

Bush and two others, including Shawna Forde, 41, who grew up in Everett and ran for the Everett City Council in 2007, are charged with two counts of murder in Pima, Ariz. During a May 30 home-invasion robbery, a woman was wounded and her husband and their 9-year-old daughter were killed.

A sheriff in Arizona said Forde, Bush and Albert Robert Gaxiola, 42, wanted to steal money from the man, whom they suspected to be a drug dealer, to fund operations of Forde’s Minutemen American Defense, an anti-illegal-immigration group focused on the Mexican border with Arizona.

One of the group’s stated missions was to gather video of drug smuggling and human trafficking by drug cartels, according to its Web site.

The “Minutemen for American Defense” website contained this short bio of Bush, although I don’t know if any of it has been confirmed:

We are honored to have Gunny aboard. He served 6 tours over seas, where he has several medals. He received a Purple heart, Silver and Bronze star, Combat Infantry Badge and a Presidential citation for his actions in the Special Forces.

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752 comments

1 Wendya  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:47:34pm

It took 12 years to bust him? Better late than never.

2 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:47:35pm

Anti-immigration nutjobs coming out of the woodwork.

3 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:47:42pm

But - but - you mean Paul Krugman may have been right? It can't be!

4 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:47:52pm

Bush!

5 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:48:05pm

re: #1 Wendya

I get the impression he was bragging about it to his cellmates in prison.

6 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:48:18pm

Oh please he is a murdering thug who deserves to be behind bars the rest of his life or executed. He is scum and that is the group he belongs to the scum group.

7 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:48:21pm

Scum is scum.

8 Wendya  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:49:32pm

re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Scum is scum.

Yep. I don't give a shit about his motivations, he's a murderer.

9 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:49:37pm

re: #3 Cato the Elder

But - but - you mean Paul Krugman may have been right? It can't be!

Enron advisor knows best!

10 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:49:54pm

Floater would be nice.

11 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:50:10pm

1997?

12 brandon13  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:50:34pm

re: #6 Nevergiveup

Oh please he is a murdering thug who deserves to be behind bars the rest of his life or executed. He is scum and that is the group he belongs to the scum group.

Is that a No True Scotsman?

13 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:50:41pm

(Ask someone from southern/southwestern Arizona)

14 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:51:08pm

re: #11 Ben Hur

1997?

Must've been because of the "first black president."

15 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:51:12pm

re: #12 brandon13

Is that a No True Scotsman?

what do you think?

16 notutopia  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:51:16pm

This extremist group mania is socially defunct and just sickens and angers me so.

17 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:51:22pm

re: #12 brandon13

No.

18 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:52:01pm

Why are you obsessed with this stuff, Charles, when Iran is in flames?

///

19 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:52:13pm

Some of those folks down there are a bit over the top. I remember talking to a guy at GMO who was from the area. He told me that some of the locals used the guys coming across the river for target practice.

20 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:52:32pm

Did any of these type of murders happen in the last 8 and half years?

21 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:52:39pm

Paul Krugman, The Big Hate.

Yes, the worst terrorist attack in our history was perpetrated by a foreign conspiracy. But the second worst, the Oklahoma City bombing, was perpetrated by an all-American lunatic [with ties to lots of other free-range lunatics who are still out there, planning and plotting. -ed.]. Politicians and media organizations wind up such people at their, and our, peril.

22 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:52:44pm

Further suggestions regarding this scumbag are being self-deleted.

23 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:53:05pm

re: #18 Salamantis

What is the rate of information flow coming out? Not a lot of new bits per second I am afraid.

24 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:53:09pm

re: #20 Ben Hur

Did any of these type of murders happen in the last 8 and half years?

of course not...it's all BOs fault

25 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:53:39pm

No true Right Wing Extremist would do such a thing.
/

26 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:54:00pm

re: #20 Ben Hur

Did any of these type of murders happen in the last 8 and half years?

No, just in the last four weeks. Bodes well for us, doesn't it?

27 jorline  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:54:14pm

re: #15 albusteve

what do you think?

check my #381 on the previous thread...it works...lol

28 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:54:19pm

re: #12 brandon13

Is that a No True Scotsman?

No that's a scumbag.

29 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:54:44pm

re: #25 Slumbering Behemoth

No true Right Wing Extremist would do such a thing.
/

he must be an athiest too...probably roots for the Eagles

30 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:55:26pm

re: #21 Cato the Elder

Paul Krugman, The Big Hate.

Conveniently forgetting the unrest and violence in the 60's and 70's. Both sides are not blameless by a long shot of having heinous acts done in their name and ideology.

31 brandon13  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:55:31pm

re: #15 albusteve

what do you think?

It sort of sounds like it to me, but I'm not sure if that quite fits the definition.

32 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:55:34pm

A father was murdered for a few bucks, his wife wounded, and a 9 year old girl
murdered.
What kind of Neanderthal kills a child.
Jason Eugene Bush, I hope you make some very interesting friends in prison.

33 solomonpanting  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:55:44pm
Jason Eugene Bush, 34, was charged in Chelan County Superior Court

BDS
/

34 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:55:45pm

re: #29 albusteve

he must be an athiest too...probably roots for the Eagles

Or at the very least a Giant's fan ha?

35 Idle Drifter  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:56:24pm

re: #20 Ben Hur

Did any of these type of murders happen in the last 8 and half years?

People killing drug dealers to steel the drugs then turn around and sell them. Yes, this type of crime is not uncommon.

36 quiet man  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:56:49pm

Let's hope he faces the full force of the law. He is a murderer and that was the choice he made.

37 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:56:54pm
During a May 30 home-invasion robbery, a woman was wounded and her husband and their 9-year-old daughter were killed.

Blood boiling...must take break.

Have a good evening, Lizard clan...

38 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:57:36pm

re: #20 Ben Hur

Did any of these type of murders happen in the last 8 and half years?

Prohibition sure engendered a lot of booze related crimes and murders, illegal drugs are just what people want these days.

39 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:57:44pm

Obtained: Federal Agency’s Memo Warning Of “Left Wing Extremists”

[Link: theplumline.whorunsgov.com...]

or the PDF at...

[Link: www.fas.org...]

Nothing is new, left, right, there are always crazy people, and they are all scum (as per nevergiveup)

40 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:57:55pm

re: #2 medaura18586

Anti-immigration nutjobs coming out of the woodwork.

I've been watching the activity at stormfornt lately. The fliers they passed out at Tea Parties are pretty standard anti-illegal immigration stuff. Nothing outwardly racist.
There's another group in California (called something like M11) that has been holding regular protests. They are obviously white supremacists but the signs they make and the literature they pass out are normal anti-immigration stuff. It's really hard to tell the racists from the immigration control crowd.

41 Wendya  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:58:39pm

re: #21 Cato the Elder

Politicians and media organizations wind up such people at their, and our, peril.

I don't subscribe to the "it's the politicians and media's fault". I am a firm believer in the individual and the concept of personal responsibility. If a politician rails out about illegal immigration and some nutball decides to target and murder illegals, the fault belongs to the person who committed the crime. In America, we do not criminalize thoughts and opinions no matter how disgusting.

42 Idle Drifter  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:59:07pm

re: #38 FurryOldGuyJeans

Prohibition sure engendered a lot of booze related crimes and murders, illegal drugs are just what people want these days.

The Purple Gang of Detroit made a name for themselves as ruthless booze hijackers during Prohibition.

43 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:59:09pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

I've been watching the activity at stormfornt lately. The fliers they passed out at Tea Parties are pretty standard anti-illegal immigration stuff. Nothing outwardly racist.
There's another group in California (called something like M11) that has been holding regular protests. They are obviously white supremacists but the signs they make and the literature they pass out are normal anti-immigration stuff. It's really hard to tell the racists from the immigration control crowd.

Isn't there a very prominent Hispanic gang called M-13?

44 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:59:33pm

re: #18 Salamantis

Iran just has two nut-jobs wanting to run the show. What guy gets to push the button to launch nuke missiles at Israel when the real leader gives the order?

45 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 1:59:50pm

re: #43 FurryOldGuyJeans

Isn't there a very prominent Hispanic gang called M-13?

MS 13...

46 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:00:12pm

re: #43 FurryOldGuyJeans

Isn't there a very prominent Hispanic gang called M-13?

I think so.

47 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:00:26pm

re: #45 brookly red

MS 13...

Ok, so I was part right. Boo. ;)

48 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:00:43pm

re: #25 Slumbering Behemoth

No true Right Wing Extremist would do such a thing.
/

Of course, right wing extremists only do extremely good things, by definition. The moment they step out of line, is the moment they reveal their true commie selves./

49 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:01:26pm

re: #41 Wendya

No, the fault is wider, because words find their actors.

50 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:01:37pm

re: #32 DEZes

A father was murdered for a few bucks, his wife wounded, and a 9 year old girl
murdered.
What kind of Neanderthal kills a child.
Jason Eugene Bush, I hope you make some very interesting friends in prison.

That leave a lasting impression. Yeah so right.

Hi (DEZes) how are you today?

51 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:02:15pm

re: #50 callahan23

That leave a lasting impression. Yeah so right.

Hi (DEZes) how are you today?

Doing well, yourself?

52 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:02:25pm

re: #41 Wendya

I don't subscribe to the "it's the politicians and media's fault". I am a firm believer in the individual and the concept of personal responsibility. If a politician rails out about illegal immigration and some nutball decides to target and murder illegals, the fault belongs to the person who committed the crime. In America, we do not criminalize thoughts and opinions no matter how disgusting.

Ever hear of hate crime laws? We do criminalize thoughts and opinions.

53 itellu3times  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:02:39pm

Bush? Rove! QED
/leftard

54 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:02:42pm

This is an excellent site to keep tabs on Iran, blogged by the excellent and credible Michael J.; Totten:

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

And this is another, collating Twitter messages from Iran:

[Link: niacblog.wordpress.com...]

55 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:02:46pm

re: #47 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ok, so I was part right. Boo. ;)

ninguna cosa grande…

56 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:03:33pm

re: #52 FurryOldGuyJeans

Some expressed thoughts are illegal as there are laws against inciting to violence.

57 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:03:41pm

re: #55 brookly red

ninguna cosa grande…

Oggie-boogie nannie wanna boo-boo back at ya. ;)

58 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:04:04pm

In other news, Jason Eugene Bush and Shawna Forde consider themselves to be patriots of the purest water. They believe themselves to be the embodiment of all that is holy and good in America. (... and probably think the rest of us are spineless traitors.)

/just setting context ................ *spit*

59 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:04:35pm

re: #51 DEZes

Very well, thank you. Pleasant day today, easy on the work load and not too cold, not too haot weather here. :-)

60 Wendya  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:04:36pm

re: #49 Ojoe

No, the fault is wider, because words find their actors.

Sorry, don't buy that line of thinking.

61 jorline  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:04:38pm

re: #32 DEZes

A father was murdered for a few bucks, his wife wounded, and a 9 year old girl
murdered.
What kind of Neanderthal kills a child.
Jason Eugene Bush, I hope you make some very interesting friends in prison.

May Jeffrey Dahmer's prison buddy visit him soon.

62 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:04:40pm

re: #42 Idle Drifter

The Purple Gang of Detroit made a name for themselves as ruthless booze hijackers during Prohibition.

murder for hire, they scared the shit out of Al Capone

63 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:04:54pm

re: #57 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oggie-boogie nannie wanna boo-boo back at ya. ;)

He said "no great thing" as in "no big deal."

64 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:05:41pm
We are honored to have Gunny aboard. He served 6 tours over seas, where he has several medals. He received a Purple heart, Silver and Bronze star, Combat Infantry Badge and a Presidential citation for his actions in the Special Forces.

I will bet every last dollar in my depleted checking account that this vile creature is lying about every word in that bio. If he was even in the Marines, I'll throw in my savings account, too.

65 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:05:50pm

re: #60 Wendya

Try: Words -> actor -> injury to yourself.

BBL

66 Wendya  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:06:27pm

re: #52 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ever hear of hate crime laws? We do criminalize thoughts and opinions.

And I would love to see every single hate crime law struck down. That's all part of the victim mentality we see. Either we are individuals, responsible for our own actions or we're just a bunch of mindless animals being led by the nose.

67 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:06:44pm

re: #44 hous bin pharteen

Iran just has two nut-jobs wanting to run the show. What guy gets to push the button to launch nuke missiles at Israel when the real leader gives the order?

One of the Seven Demands is to change who that 'real leader' is:

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

Demonstrators in Iran distributed seven demands in print yesterday.

1. Dismissal of Khamenei for not being a fair leader
2. Dismissal of Ahmadinejad for his illegal acts
3. Temporary appointment of Ayatollah Montazeri as the Supreme Leader
4. Recognition of Mousavi as the President
5. Forming the Cabinet by Mousavi to prepare for revising the Constitution
6. unconditional and immediate release of all political prisoners
7. Dissolution of all organs of repression, public or secret

Montazeri is not interested in nuking anybody:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

68 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:06:58pm

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

He said "no great thing" as in "no big deal."

I know what he said, I am not a total Ugly American. ;)

69 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:07:25pm

re: #58 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In other news, Jason Eugene Bush and Shawna Forde consider themselves to be patriots of the purest water. They believe themselves to be the embodiment of all that is holy and good in America. (... and probably think the rest of us are spineless traitors.)

/just setting context ................ *spit*

I am sure they believe that they are special.
I am also sure there are creeps that agree.

70 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:07:34pm

And now some good news:

ANNAPOLIS, Md. — Applications have surged at the nation’s three top military academies as tough economic times coincide with stepped-up recruiting efforts by the Army, Navy and Air Force schools, making the prospect of free college and a steady job look sweeter.

[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

As of this week, the U.S. Naval Academy was out in front with a 40 percent increase in applications compared with last year. Annapolis received about 15,300 applications for about 1,230 positions — the highest number of applications the academy has received since 1988.

71 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:07:38pm

re: #61 jorline

May Jeffrey Dahmer's prison buddy visit him soon.

Too quick.

72 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:07:43pm

re: #68 FurryOldGuyJeans

I know what he said, I am not a total Ugly American. ;)

la cara feliz fue observada ;)

73 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:08:03pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

I've been watching the activity at stormfornt lately. The fliers they passed out at Tea Parties are pretty standard anti-illegal immigration stuff. Nothing outwardly racist.
There's another group in California (called something like M11) that has been holding regular protests. They are obviously white supremacists but the signs they make and the literature they pass out are normal anti-immigration stuff. It's really hard to tell the racists from the immigration control crowd.

To tell you the truth, I see little ideological difference between the two crowds. I think the latter is a subset of the former.

/ducks

74 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:08:28pm

re: #25 Slumbering Behemoth

No true Right Wing Extremist would do such a thing.
/

We use guns not knives......

////////////////////////

75 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:08:35pm

re: #72 brookly red

la cara feliz fue observada ;)

smile when you call me that

76 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:09:06pm

re: #41 Wendya

I don't subscribe to the "it's the politicians and media's fault". I am a firm believer in the individual and the concept of personal responsibility. If a politician rails out about illegal immigration and some nutball decides to target and murder illegals, the fault belongs to the person who committed the crime. In America, we do not criminalize thoughts and opinions no matter how disgusting.

There is a fine line between "thoughts and opinions" and "incitement".

Individual responsibility also applies to those who use their bully pulpits to incite the virulent haters among their followers. They know exactly what they're doing.

77 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:09:07pm

I would be extremely skeptical of his supposed military experience.

"Gunny" is an affectionate term for a Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant.

The Combat Infantry Badge is an Army award.

If you were to me to analyze this "bio" that was posted about him as, perhaps, a PSYOP soldier would analyze a bit of propaganda I would say this;

I would assume that he did serve in the military in some capacity, or was around those who did enough to sound knowledgeable to a layperson. In order to increase his credibility within a group that identifies strongly with the Armed Forces and public service (i.e. protecting the border), he embellished his service record. There are, however, enough inconsistencies in the details of his "bio" to cast doubt on the veracity of his story.
As always, I will continue to look for new intel to revise or retract current analysis.

78 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:09:10pm

re: #70 Nevergiveup

And now some good news:

ANNAPOLIS, Md. — Applications have surged at the nation’s three top military academies as tough economic times coincide with stepped-up recruiting efforts by the Army, Navy and Air Force schools, making the prospect of free college and a steady job look sweeter.

[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

As of this week, the U.S. Naval Academy was out in front with a 40 percent increase in applications compared with last year. Annapolis received about 15,300 applications for about 1,230 positions — the highest number of applications the academy has received since 1988.

Terrible... hundreds of new right-wing nut cases waiting to hatch. Boo. :)

79 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:09:28pm

re: #58 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In other news, Jason Eugene Bush and Shawna Forde consider themselves to be patriots of the purest water. They believe themselves to be the embodiment of all that is holy and good in America. (... and probably think the rest of us are spineless traitors.)

/just setting context ................ *spit*

Confederate soldiers as a whole thought they were the true patriots of American ideals. Just because you think it doesn't make it reality.

80 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:10:00pm

albusteve is, in fact, anti-illegal immigration

81 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:10:00pm

He was wandering around Wenatchee in 1997? That's interesting. Really interesting.

82 mj  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:10:24pm

Over at the White House, Gibbs was asked the following:

Q Thank you very much. Historian Victor Davis Hanson cites what he terms, "The President's politically correct canard that the Renaissance was fueled by Arab learning, and the President's statement that abolition of slavery and civil rights in the U.S. were accomplished without violence," as two of seven presidential errors. And my question: Does the White House believe Dr. Hanson is wrong, or do you believe your speechwriters and the President made some mistakes?

MR. GIBBS: Lester, I have to hand it to you that you have in only one question covered some five or six centuries of world history. (Laughter.)

Q No, no, just mistakes -- White House mistakes.

MR. GIBBS: Should I ask you a question and you respond, or should I give a --

Q I'd be delighted --

MR. GIBBS: At least you're not leaning into where you think the answer to such a historically significant and important question -- I'm not familiar with the work of the esteemed historian. I haven't seen it. I can assure you that not knowing who this historian is, I'll put my money on our speechwriters.

83 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:10:39pm

re: psyop

I would be extremely skeptical of his supposed military experience.

I hope my article made it clear that I am skeptical about the military claims.

84 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:10:40pm

re: #77 psyop

Well anyone that wins a bronze or silver star should be in a public data base right? They don't just hand those ones out willy nilly.

85 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:10:46pm

re: #77 psyop

If we only had he ss# we'd know.

86 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:10:47pm

Another question: is “Minutemen for American Defense” the same as the original Minuteman Project founded by Jim Gilchrist? I'm guessing not.

87 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:11:00pm

re: #71 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Too quick.

Not from the accounts I've heard.

However, though "word on the street" is generally more dependable than the accounts of the MSM, law enforcement, politicians or clergy, it is not infallible.

88 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:11:25pm

re: #64 doppelganglander

I will bet every last dollar in my depleted checking account that this vile creature is lying about every word in that bio. If he was even in the Marines, I'll throw in my savings account, too.

Is there any lists of the recipients of the highest medals online?
When I read the article I immediately inquired if the Purple Heart medal is only awarded to the KIA's or also to those wounded. It is of course both.
But you see my immediate suspicion with those claims.

89 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:11:34pm

re: #82 mj

Over at the White House, Gibbs was asked the following:

Why am I not surprised a knuckle-dragger like Gibbs doesn't know who VDH is?

90 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:11:43pm

re: #86 doppelganglander

Another question: is “Minutemen for American Defense” the same as the original Minuteman Project founded by Jim Gilchrist? I'm guessing not.

No.

91 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:12:08pm

re: #88 callahan23

Is there any lists of the recipients of the highest medals online?
When I read the article I immediately inquired if the Purple Heart medal is only awarded to the KIA's or also to those wounded. It is of course both.
But you see my immediate suspicion with those claims.

I've seen other people mention a database of this sort of thing, but I don't know where to find it.

92 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:12:17pm

re: #61 jorline

Its sad to classify scum like that as belonging to the human race.

93 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:12:31pm

re: #86 doppelganglander

Another question: is “Minutemen for American Defense” the same as the original Minuteman Project founded by Jim Gilchrist? I'm guessing not.

it's not, I had the same question...

94 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:12:36pm

re: #83 Charles

I hope my article made it clear that I am skeptical about the military claims.

I got that, yes.

95 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:12:52pm

re: #78 Walter L. Newton

Terrible... hundreds of new right-wing nut cases waiting to hatch. Boo. :)

It only takes one lone nutter.

96 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:13:02pm

re: #77 psyop


Scumbags making up stories like this diminsh those of us who did get the honor of serving America.

97 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:13:52pm

re: #84 BlueCanuck

Well anyone that wins a bronze or silver star should be in a public data base right? They don't just hand those ones out willy nilly.

I believe you can search for it.

Ha! Site Found!

98 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:14:16pm

A credible News organization ( yeah I know that's a loaded label ) could query the DOD about his Service Record i am sure.

99 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:14:23pm

re: #64 doppelganglander

When did Army Green Berets start taking Navy guys in? Or Marines? I think he watched to many movies.

100 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:14:31pm

re: #87 Slumbering Behemoth

Not from the accounts I've heard.

However, though "word on the street" is generally more dependable than the accounts of the MSM, law enforcement, politicians or clergy, it is not infallible.

These men deserve to suffer before the end. They should beg for it to end.

101 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:14:32pm

re: #92 DEZes

Its sad to classify scum like that as belonging to the human race.

we invented scum...our own construct...what we do with them defines us more to the point.....HU-MONS!

102 Idle Drifter  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:15:12pm
We are honored to have Gunny aboard. He served 6 tours over seas, where he has several medals. He received a Purple heart, Silver and Bronze star, Combat Infantry Badge and a Presidential citation for his actions in the Special Forces.

Anyone else smell fish?

103 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:15:26pm

re: #83 Charles

I hope my article made it clear that I am skeptical about the military claims.

It certainly did. It was not my intent to imply that you did buy his "bio".

Great article, and great series. It does no good to discount the wackos and radicals on the extreme right. If you are unable to turn a critical eye on your own side, or to people who claim to be represented by your side, then it becomes nearly impossible for the group as a whole to address and fix the problem.

104 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:15:35pm

re: #96 soxfan4life

Scumbags making up stories like this diminsh those of us who did get the honor of serving America.

True heroism is never diminished by craven cowardice.

Not for me.

105 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:15:55pm

re: mj

Over at the White House, Gibbs was asked the following:

Hey, Gibbs dissed VDH.

But there's a little history with "Lester," too -- Lester Kinsolving is the reporter for World Net Daily, and recently asked Gibbs a Nirther question.

106 Gearhead  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:16:08pm

re: #82 mj

Over at the White House, Gibbs was asked the following:


Ahh, Beltway Bob

107 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:16:14pm

re: #86 doppelganglander

No...two different groups. I think the earlier article posted on this differentiated between the two some eight or nine paragraphs in.

108 vermicious_knid  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:16:15pm

This is rapidly becoming my favorite left wing site on the web. I know I can always log on daily and see headline after headline demonizing conservatives.

Keep it up, Charles. Good work !

109 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:16:34pm

And here's a list of 12,000 recipients of the Bronze Star: Bronze Star

110 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:16:45pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

Been nice knowing ya! Bye.

111 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:17:02pm

re: #79 FurryOldGuyJeans

Confederate soldiers as a whole thought they were the true patriots of American ideals. Just because you think it doesn't make it reality.

Apart from my initial sarcastic BS ... AND apart from the issue of slavery ... Confederate soldiers were on the States' Rights (versus Federalism) side of an ongoing debate of the day. For a good depiction of the position, see the characterizations of Lee and Jackson in the motion picture "Gods and Generals".

112 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:17:14pm

re: #82 mj
Gibbs is an embarrassment to lame-asses everywhere.

113 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:17:29pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

You've been waiting since February to post that one comment?

114 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:17:41pm

re: #96 soxfan4life

Scumbags making up stories like this diminsh those of us who did get the honor of serving America.

It may be your love of the RedSox......

115 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:17:51pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

Way to introduce yourself troll.

116 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:17:53pm

re: #113 reine.de.tout

You've been waiting since February to post that one comment?

Talk about a wasted load.

117 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:17:58pm

re: #105 Charles

Hey, Gibbs dissed VDH.

But there's a little history with "Lester," too -- Lester Kinsolving is the reporter for World Net Daily, and recently asked Gibbs a Nirther question.

Bad Lester, Bad.

118 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:18:02pm

re: #30 FurryOldGuyJeans

Conveniently forgetting the unrest and violence in the 60's and 70's. Both sides are not blameless by a long shot of having heinous acts done in their name and ideology.

The point is that rightwing extremist groups become active under a Dem admin, just as leftwing extremist groups become active under a Repub admin-- or an admin which is perceived by them to be too rightwing.

Similarly, Obama is being painted as 'the most pro-abortion president ever!' to the anti-abortion fringe extremists; although this is false it's already radicalizing the extremist elements, as the murder of Dr Tiller shows.

We don't have to start making excuses for the Weathermen in order to call out what's happening now.

119 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:18:03pm

re: reine.de.tout

You've been waiting since February to post that one comment?

Feb 2008

120 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:18:12pm

re: #97 Dianna

Well, definitely no Jason Eugene Bush won a Silver Star. Marine or Army.

121 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:18:17pm

re: #97 Dianna

I believe you can search for it.

Ha! Site Found!

The late lizard, USMC1968 was awarded a Silver Star in Vietnam.

122 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:18:25pm

re: #92 DEZes

Its sad to classify scum like that as belonging to the human race.

Yes it is.
I prefer to call them monstrous scum or simply monsters as they would also unjustly smear the animal kingdom if those monsters were being called animals.

123 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:18:31pm

re: #82 mj

You have a link to a transcript of this exchange? Something seems missing here, no real context.

124 vermicious_knid  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:18:39pm

I am not a daily commenter. But I am a daily visitor.

125 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:18:45pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

how is it 'left wing'?

126 mj  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:19:14pm

re: #123 FurryOldGuyJeans

You have a link to a transcript of this exchange? Something seems missing here, no real context.

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

127 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:19:15pm

I would not be surprised to learn that Jason Bush's military credentials were as authentic as 'Rick Duncan's'...

128 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:19:16pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

Your thought patterns are shallow and two-dimensional if you think the terms "right wing" and "conservative" are so synonymous as to be inseparable.

Or worse, you are an idiot of the highest order, and a scumbag to boot, if you consider the subject of this post to be a "conservative".

129 J.D.  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:19:30pm

re: #82 mj
Gibbs is really up on his reading, huh?

130 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:19:36pm

re: #124 vermicious_knid

I am not a daily commenter. But I am a daily visitor.

Probably not for long.

131 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:19:44pm

re: #114 Ben Hur

It may be your love of the RedSox......


Would it be better if I was a NY Yankee type of guy?

132 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:19:52pm

5 'll getcha 10 that vermicious_knid is some asshole's sock.

133 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:20:30pm

re: #131 soxfan4life

Would it be better if I was a NY Yankee type of guy?

Stand down, soldier.

Was a friendly jibe.

134 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:20:31pm

re: #132 pre-Boomer Marine brat

5 'll getcha 10 that vermicious_knid is some asshole's sock.

Safe bet

135 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:20:38pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Probably not for long.

let him speak for himself...

136 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:21:20pm

re: #131 soxfan4life

Would it be better if I was a NY Yankee type of guy?

Is that a trick question?

137 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:21:26pm

re: #135 albusteve

let him speak for himself...

How?

138 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:21:27pm

re: #132 pre-Boomer Marine brat

5 'll getcha 10 that vermicious_knid is some asshole's sock.

Isn't there a poster with pernicious in his/her nic?

139 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:21:36pm

re: #132 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Maybe a sock-hole's ass?

140 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:21:41pm

re: #133 Ben Hur

Stand down, soldier.

Was a friendly jibe.


It's all good. I don't tend to get riled up over litle things.

141 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:21:43pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

And you are convinced that you're so cute, too.

142 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:21:46pm

re: #124 vermicious_knid

I am not a daily commenter. But I am a daily visitor.

You visit daily and haven't figured out that it's WINGNUTS we don't like? You didn't read very closely.

143 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:12pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

Are you going to wait another 4 months to post a similar gem?

144 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:12pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

This is rapidly becoming my favorite left wing site on the web. I know I can always log on daily and see headline after headline demonizing conservatives.

Keep it up, Charles. Good work !

And that's what this thread is about to you is it? The 'demonising' of a conservative? You're sick in the head.

145 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:16pm

re: #96 soxfan4life

Scumbags making up stories like this diminsh those of us who did get the honor of serving America.

I agree completely. If you did serve, and you wish to speak out against war or anything else, I would have no problem with that. I may debate your message or conclusions, but I would defend your platform to speak.

What bothers me is people who pretend to have served (or greatly embellish their record) to lend credibility to their activism, or people who did serve, but then lied about their experiences after for personal or political gain. I almost think it should be a crime to do these things (kind of like impersonating an officer). Or maybe it already is, but no one has the balls to enforce it.

146 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:26pm

re: #137 Walter L. Newton

How?

sign language?....droolery?....I dunno

147 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:26pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

I'll make it easier and less stressful for you by removing your posting privileges. No need to thank me!

148 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:40pm

re: #132 pre-Boomer Marine brat

5 'll getcha 10 that vermicious_knid is some asshole's sock.

2 strikes and YER OUT!

149 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:41pm

re: #132 pre-Boomer Marine brat

5 'll getcha 10 that vermicious_knid is some asshole's sock.

I found a picture to prove it.

150 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:42pm

re: #140 soxfan4life

It's all good. I don't tend to get riled up over litle things.


Cool.

Thank you for not bringing up last week.

151 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:45pm

re: #143 Fenway_Nation

Are you going to wait another 4 months to post a similar gem?

16 months

152 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:22:50pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

Obtained: Federal Agency’s Memo Warning Of “Left Wing Extremists”

[Link: theplumline.whorunsgov.com...]

or the PDF at...

[Link: www.fas.org...]

Nothing is new, left, right, there are always crazy people, and they are all scum (as per nevergiveup)

This is my first post here at LGF (I just registered yesterday). I am sure that I am in no way breaking any new ground by saying this, but the political spectrum being described in a linear fashion has never made sense to me. It seems to me that if you go far enough to the "left," you pop out on the "right," and vice versa. Wackos are wackos, regardless of their description of being on the left or right end of the political spectrum.

153 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:23:19pm

re: #138 doppelganglander

Isn't there a poster with pernicious in his/her nic?

Might be, sounds familiar, ... but this "vermicious" is altogether different in tone. Sounds like its supposed to be symbolic, or allegorical.

154 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:23:32pm

re: #147 Charles

I'll make it easier and less stressful for you by removing your posting privileges. No need to thank me!

and......WHAMMY!

155 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:24:18pm

re: #147 Charles

I'll make it easier and less stressful for you by removing your posting privileges. No need to thank me!

And a redirect for his IP to DailyKos.......

156 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:24:29pm

re: #111 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Apart from my initial sarcastic BS ... AND apart from the issue of slavery ... Confederate soldiers were on the States' Rights (versus Federalism) side of an ongoing debate of the day. For a good depiction of the position, see the characterizations of Lee and Jackson in the motion picture "Gods and Generals".

Oh, part two of a trilogy! Part 1 being Gettysburg.

The reasons why they fought are as myriad as the men doing the fighting. Neither side had the whole truth on their side.

157 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:24:39pm

re: #149 DEZes

I found a picture to prove it.

LOL!
But now you have to add the imprint of Stinky's pipe wrench on the face.

158 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:24:40pm

re: #147 Charles

I'll make it easier and less stressful for you by removing your posting privileges. No need to thank me!

oh well...I wanted to identify with his maladjusted life but it's too late...
Hahahaha!

159 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:24:55pm

re: #153 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Might be, sounds familiar, ... but this "vermicious" is altogether different in tone. Sounds like its supposed to be symbolic, or allegorical.

Its a Willy Wonka reference

160 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:25:25pm

re: #124 vermicious_knid

I am not a daily commenter. But I am a daily visitor.

Well, it's just back to visiting for you.

161 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:25:30pm

re: #152 Enkidu90046

This is my first post here at LGF (I just registered yesterday). I am sure that I am in no way breaking any new ground by saying this, but the political spectrum being described in a linear fashion has never made sense to me. It seems to me that if you go far enough to the "left," you pop out on the "right," and vice versa. Wackos are wackos, regardless of their description of being on the left or right end of the political spectrum.

I agree with you, and that was my lightly sarcastic reason for posting the links I did. I'm more concerned with paying attention to nuts period.

162 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:26:29pm

re: #147 Charles

I'll make it easier and less stressful for you by removing your posting privileges. No need to thank me!

Suggest that they yell Curahee (sp?) on their way out the hatch.

/ the fade-out would be delightful

163 jorline  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:27:19pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

AMF

164 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:27:19pm

re: #159 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its a Willy Wonka reference

Thanks. It sounded like something I ought to know but I just couldn't make the connection.

165 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:27:32pm

re: #162 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Suggest that they yell Curahee (sp?) on their way out the hatch.

/ the fade-out would be delightful

Doubt most of them would get that reference, but I like the idea.

166 ryannon  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:27:59pm

re: #43 FurryOldGuyJeans

Isn't there a very prominent Hispanic gang called M-13?

Yes. And sweet-looking kids at that:

167 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:28:05pm

re: #124 vermicious_knid

You can now have the privilege of reading without the stress of commenting while you visit, something you are in desperate need of starting.

168 BignJames  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:28:17pm

re: #163 jorline

AMF

BRUNSWICK

169 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:28:34pm

re: #152 Enkidu90046

This is my first post here at LGF (I just registered yesterday). I am sure that I am in no way breaking any new ground by saying this, but the political spectrum being described in a linear fashion has never made sense to me. It seems to me that if you go far enough to the "left," you pop out on the "right," and vice versa. Wackos are wackos, regardless of their description of being on the left or right end of the political spectrum.

Welcome. That's a good first post. Also, anyone with a literary reference in their nic gets a thumbs up from me.

170 dingleB  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:28:50pm

I checked GWOT database for this shitbird, silver star nada, * 18 citations/names of Navy Seals will not be released.Kosovo,Somolia,Gulf 1,Panama,Grenada...nope,nada,did not happen.

As far as CIB versus CAR, Army, USMC. I do know that if you rec' a Combat Action Ribbon as a Marine, and decide to go inter-service transfer, you are authorized to wear the CIB in lieu of.

I'll be any some of money that: 1. If said shitbird did serve, he was discharged with a less than honorable, or Big Chicken dinner. 2. He was most likely a box kicker or in bulk fuel and served on a base that had a special ops presence.

Oh, heres's the link

[Link: www.homeofheroes.com...]

171 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:28:59pm

re: #165 Nevergiveup

Doubt most of them would get that reference, but I like the idea.

heh ... a different kind of flounce

172 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:29:02pm

OT - it appears that Obama is doing something about what is happening in Iran...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. State Department said on Tuesday it had contacted the social networking service Twitter to urge it to delay a planned upgrade that would have cut daytime service to Iranians who are disputing their election.

Confirmation that the U.S. government had contacted Twitter came as the Obama administration sought to avoid suggestions it was meddling in Iran's internal affairs as the Islamic Republic battled to control deadly street protests over the election result.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

When it comes to not meddling, he's lying as well as any good politician. Good for him.

173 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:29:23pm

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

Iran Embassy Protest (in London)

There’s a theory - possibly P.J. O’Rourke’s - that you can tell the prospects of success of a political movement by the attractiveness of those it attracts.

On the basis of that theory, Ahmadinejad is toast.

174 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:29:35pm

re: #145 psyop

I agree completely. If you did serve, and you wish to speak out against war or anything else, I would have no problem with that. I may debate your message or conclusions, but I would defend your platform to speak.

What bothers me is people who pretend to have served (or greatly embellish their record) to lend credibility to their activism, or people who did serve, but then lied about their experiences after for personal or political gain. I almost think it should be a crime to do these things (kind of like impersonating an officer). Or maybe it already is, but no one has the balls to enforce it.


The soldiers ,with whom I served, opinions are the ones I value, if someone else wants to question my service or anything else it's okay as the guys that were beside me know the real deal. But aside from the fact that I am a vet any employers or potential employers get no other info. As for embellishment of service, those in the public eye tend to have their lies exposed. Remember when Admiral Mike Bourda got busted for wearing a V device on an award that he didn't receive, he ended up comitting suicide over it. Those that didn't serve or didn't serve honorably have no conscience so they wouldn't lose sleep over not behaving honorably

175 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:29:36pm

re: #152 Enkidu90046

This is my first post here at LGF (I just registered yesterday). I am sure that I am in no way breaking any new ground by saying this, but the political spectrum being described in a linear fashion has never made sense to me. It seems to me that if you go far enough to the "left," you pop out on the "right," and vice versa. Wackos are wackos, regardless of their description of being on the left or right end of the political spectrum.

A better way is the Political compass. You've got left and right, but also Authoritarian (up) and Libertarian (down). So Up and Right = Nazi, Up and Left = Communist. Down and left = Anarchist. Down and Right Libertarian.

176 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:30:23pm

re: #84 BlueCanuck

Well anyone that wins a bronze or silver star should be in a public data base right? They don't just hand those ones out willy nilly.

nope, you dont wanna be in the action that gets those ribbons.

177 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:30:55pm

re: #175 JCM

A better way is the Political compass. You've got left and right, but also Authoritarian (up) and Libertarian (down). So Up and Right = Nazi, Up and Left = Communist. Down and left = Anarchist. Down and Right Libertarian.

could you put that to music so I can understand it better?

178 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:32:00pm

re: #77 psyop

Aren't the bronze star and silver star also Army medals, not awarded to Marines?

179 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:32:16pm

re: #174 soxfan4life

The soldiers ,with whom I served, opinions are the ones I value, if someone else wants to question my service or anything else it's okay as the guys that were beside me know the real deal. But aside from the fact that I am a vet any employers or potential employers get no other info. As for embellishment of service, those in the public eye tend to have their lies exposed. Remember when Admiral Mike Bourda got busted for wearing a V device on an award that he didn't receive, he ended up comitting suicide over it. Those that didn't serve or didn't serve honorably have no conscience so they wouldn't lose sleep over not behaving honorably


Sorry those that didn't serve and make up stories about their service

180 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:32:17pm

re: #156 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh, part two of a trilogy! Part 1 being Gettysburg.

The reasons why they fought are as myriad as the men doing the fighting. Neither side had the whole truth on their side.

I have both and deeply regret that the third has not been made.

181 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:32:23pm

re: #169 doppelganglander

Welcome. That's a good first post. Also, anyone with a literary reference in their nic gets a thumbs up from me.

Thank you.

It became one of my nicknames because a brilliant (and beautiful) ex used to call me that because she somewhat thought of me as "feral man" and I am quite strong (being a former powerlifter). I am guessing she must have been referring to Enkidu before he laid with a woman and lost his strength.

Nice to meet you.

182 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:33:10pm

re: #152 Enkidu90046

Political thought may be circular, but at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock axis its linear.

183 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:33:10pm

re: #181 Enkidu90046

Thank you.

It became one of my nicknames because a brilliant (and beautiful) ex used to call me that because she somewhat thought of me as "feral man" and I am quite strong (being a former powerlifter). I am guessing she must have been referring to Enkidu before he laid with a woman and lost his strength.

Nice to meet you.

TMI :)

184 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:33:16pm

re: #177 albusteve

could you put that to music so I can understand it better?

185 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:33:36pm

re: #175 JCM

A better way is the Political compass. You've got left and right, but also Authoritarian (up) and Libertarian (down). So Up and Right = Nazi, Up and Left = Communist. Down and left = Anarchist. Down and Right Libertarian.

The Political Continuum....I like it.

186 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:33:47pm

re: #175 JCM

A better way is the Political compass. You've got left and right, but also Authoritarian (up) and Libertarian (down). So Up and Right = Nazi, Up and Left = Communist. Down and left = Anarchist. Down and Right Libertarian.

That works well, but I prefer to use the following labels instead. They seem to work better for what we've seen when dealing with these various groups:
Up - Collective
Down - Individual
Right - Tribe
Left - Class

187 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:33:54pm

re: #178 Last Mohican

Aren't the bronze star and silver star also Army medals, not awarded to Marines?

If you transfer branches you can keep the medals earned in your former service, you just have to put them in the right order on your dress uniform. I believe they go below all medals awarded in your current branch.

188 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:34:09pm

re: #175 JCM

I'm glad you noticed nkidu90046's.
I was about to bring it to your attention, knowing you had that link.

189 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:34:13pm

re: #181 Enkidu90046

Thank you.

It became one of my nicknames because a brilliant (and beautiful) ex used to call me that because she somewhat thought of me as "feral man" and I am quite strong (being a former powerlifter). I am guessing she must have been referring to Enkidu before he laid with a woman and lost his strength.

Nice to meet you.

good grief...another Adonis

190 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:34:30pm

re: #180 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I have both and deeply regret that the third has not been made.

2013 by the look of the gap between 1 and 2, assuming it gets made at all. BOO!

191 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:34:41pm

re: #178 Last Mohican

Aren't the bronze star and silver star also Army medals, not awarded to Marines?

No, they are for any service member

192 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:34:50pm

re: #181 Enkidu90046

Thank you.

It became one of my nicknames because a brilliant (and beautiful) ex used to call me that because she somewhat thought of me as "feral man" and I am quite strong (being a former powerlifter). I am guessing she must have been referring to Enkidu before he laid with a woman and lost his strength.

Nice to meet you.

Enkidu (������ EN.KI.DU3 "Enki's creation") is a central figure in the Ancient Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh. In the story he is a wild-man raised by animals and ignorant of human society until he is bedded by the Shamhat. Thereafter a series of interactions with humans and human ways bring him closer to civilization, culminating in a wrestling match with Gilgamesh, king of Uruk. Enkidu then becomes the king's constant companion, accompanying him on adventures until he is stricken ill. The loss of Enkidu inspires Gilgamesh's quest to escape death in the remainder of the narrative.

193 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:35:03pm

re: #184 JCM

MOM!?!
/

194 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:35:05pm

re: #178 Last Mohican

Aren't the bronze star and silver star also Army medals, not awarded to Marines?

I believe that both the bronze and silver stars are awarded to all branches. The Navy has a special award, though, which includes the Marines: The Navy Cross

195 Wendya  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:35:12pm

re: #97 Dianna

I believe you can search for it.

Ha! Site Found!

The dumbass claims he was special forces because it's very difficult to verify any information on those guys.

196 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:35:17pm

re: #184 JCM

huba huba!....I gotter now!...thanks

197 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:35:24pm

re: #175 JCM

A better way is the Political compass. You've got left and right, but also Authoritarian (up) and Libertarian (down). So Up and Right = Nazi, Up and Left = Communist. Down and left = Anarchist. Down and Right Libertarian.

Ooh... I like that!

Thanks for introducing me to that.

See, day 1 on LGF and I am already learning something useful!

198 BignJames  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:36:04pm

re: #192 Walter L. Newton


You left out the beer.

199 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:36:10pm

Neo-Nazis are in the Army now

Why the U.S. military is ignoring its own regulations and permitting white supremacists to join its ranks.


Army regulations prohibit soldiers from participating in racist groups, and recruiters are instructed to keep an eye out for suspicious tattoos. Before signing on the dotted line, enlistees are required to explain any tattoos. At a Tampa recruitment office, though, Fogarty sailed right through the signup process. "They just told me to write an explanation of each tattoo, and I made up some stuff, and that was that," he says. Soon he was posted to Fort Stewart in Georgia, where he became part of the 3rd Infantry Division.
....
In 2003, Fogarty was sent to Iraq. For two years he served in the military police, escorting officers, including generals, around the hostile country. He says he was granted top-secret clearance and access to battle plans. Fogarty speaks with regret that he "never had any kill counts." But he says his time in Iraq increased his racist resolve.

"I hate Arabs more than anybody, for the simple fact I've served over there and seen how they live," he tells me. "They're just a backward people. Them and the Jews are just disgusting people as far as I'm concerned. Their customs, everything to do with the Middle East, is just repugnant to me."

Because of his tattoos and his racist comments, most of his buddies and his commanding officers were aware of his Nazism. "They all knew in my unit," he says. "They would always kid around and say, 'Hey, you're that skinhead!'" But no one sounded an alarm to higher-ups. "I would volunteer for all the hardest missions, and they were like, 'Let Fogarty go.' They didn't want to get rid of me."

Fogarty left the Army in 2005 with an honorable discharge. He says he was asked to reenlist. He declined. He was sick of the system.

200 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:36:13pm

re: #195 Wendya

The dumbass claims he was special forces because it's very difficult to verify any information on those guys.

Maybe if he is convicted they ought to let him train with some real special op guys for some punishment.

201 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:36:43pm

So we have a "Gunny" (USMC) who served in the Special Forces (Army)?

Riiiiiight.

[bullshit detector redlining]

202 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:37:07pm

re: #190 FurryOldGuyJeans

2013 by the look of the gap between 1 and 2, assuming it gets made at all. BOO!

Yes ... BOO!

/I've read that the decision was taken not to make it. Don't know if that still holds.

203 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:37:26pm

re: #186 Honorary Yooper

That works well, but I prefer to use the following labels instead. They seem to work better for what we've seen when dealing with these various groups:
Up - Collective
Down - Individual
Right - Tribe
Left - Class

I like that!

204 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:37:43pm

OT: Ridiculousness of the day award goes to Steve Gilbert at Sweetness and Light who seems to be obsessed with Obama's gray hair (or lack thereof).

205 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:37:54pm

re: #181 Enkidu90046

Thank you.

It became one of my nicknames because a brilliant (and beautiful) ex used to call me that because she somewhat thought of me as "feral man" and I am quite strong (being a former powerlifter). I am guessing she must have been referring to Enkidu before he laid with a woman and lost his strength.

Nice to meet you.

Based on that description, it's very nice to meet you.

/female
//married
///sigh

206 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:37:59pm

re: #201 Occasional Reader

So we have a "Gunny" (USMC) who served in the Special Forces (Army)?

Riiiiiight.

[bullshit detector redlining]

Ah, I see this has been amply covered. (Must skim thread first before posting!)

207 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:38:04pm

re: #197 Enkidu90046

Ooh... I like that!

Thanks for introducing me to that.

See, day 1 on LGF and I am already learning something useful!

Learning is one of the reasons why most of us oldtimers hang out here as well.

208 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:38:16pm

re: #178 Last Mohican

I am fairly sure those are universal medals, meaning any branch of service can be awarded them.

There are many decorations that cross branches, but many are service specific. It can all get very complex. Which is why someone who has a little knowledge may fool some people, they won't get it past someone who has spent a great deal of their life around it.

209 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:38:26pm

I know this subject keeps coming up, but I really wish that anyone who still has issues with the DHS report would take the time to read it.

Here, for example, is what it had to say about the threat posed by the confluence of racist/white supremacist/anti-immigration sentiment--it sounds like a blueprint of these guys:


(U//FOUO) Over the past five years, various rightwing extremists, including militias and white supremacists, have adopted the immigration issue as a call to action, rallying point, and recruiting tool. Debates over appropriate immigration levels and enforcement policy generally fall within the realm of protected political speech under the First Amendment, but in some cases, anti-immigration or strident pro-enforcement fervor has been directed against specific groups and has the potential to turn violent.

(U//FOUO) DHS/I&A assesses that rightwing extremist groups’ frustration over a perceived lack of government action on illegal immigration has the potential to incite individuals or small groups toward violence. If such violence were to occur, it likely would be isolated, small-scale, and directed at specific immigration-related targets.

210 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:38:29pm

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

TMI :)

LOL... no, I meant the literary character of Enkidu, not myself. If I recall correctly, he was given the strength of half the animals in the forest and was basically a wild man, until he laid with a woman. He lost his strength but gained knowledge and was civilized.

211 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:38:35pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

Neo-Nazis are in the Army now

Why the U.S. military is ignoring its own regulations and permitting white supremacists to join its ranks.

For the same reasons Black Panthers, MEChAs, and gang members get in. They hide their true identities in the enlistment process.

212 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:39:03pm

re: #204 MrPaulRevere

OT: Ridiculousness of the day award goes to Steve Gilbert at Sweetness and Light who seems to be obsessed with Obama's gray hair (or lack thereof).

He shaves down there?

213 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:39:25pm

re: #187 soxfan4life

If you transfer branches you can keep the medals earned in your former service, you just have to put them in the right order on your dress uniform. I believe they go below all medals awarded in your current branch.

I see. But what are the odds that Jason Eugene Bush served long enough in the Army to receive a CIB, and silver and bronze stars, and also was a gunnery sergeant in the Marine Corps? Wouldn't it be sort of unusual for an infantryman (if that's what he was) to switch services like that? I only know of two people who switched services. One was a Marine officer who joined the Navy because he wanted to become a doctor, and the other left the Marines to become a Navy corpsman (the latter was Jeremiah Wright).

Well, I guess it's possible. I'm sure someone will rake that muck sooner or later.

214 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:39:28pm

re: #197 Enkidu90046

Ooh... I like that!

Thanks for introducing me to that.

See, day 1 on LGF and I am already learning something useful!

By the way Welcome....

Now do you hatchling duty and buy the room a round!

;-)

215 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:39:37pm

re: #191 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No, they are for any service member

Ah, okay. Never mind then.

216 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:40:17pm
217 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:40:50pm

re: #209 iceweasel

I know this subject keeps coming up, but I really wish that anyone who still has issues with the DHS report would take the time to read it.

Here, for example, is what it had to say about the threat posed by the confluence of racist/white supremacist/anti-immigration sentiment--it sounds like a blueprint of these guys:

I have no issues at all with the report, and no issues with this report...

[Link: theplumline.whorunsgov.com...]

218 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:40:54pm

Criminals with right wings views. I would think most of them would be Paulians.

219 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:40:57pm

re: #174 soxfan4life

If I remember the story correctly after all was said and done it was determined he was legally allowed to wear the V device? Of course that was after he committed suicide.

220 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:41:32pm

re: #176 coldwarrior

nope, you dont wanna be in the action that gets those ribbons.

My dad got the Bronze Star at Iwo Jima.

221 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:41:40pm

re: #157 pre-Boomer Marine brat

LOL!
But now you have to add the imprint of Stinky's pipe wrench on the face.


Okay.

222 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:41:42pm

Gang Activity in the U.S. Military

the Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Gangster Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenos, Surenos, Vice Lords, and various white supremacist groups

31 Flavors.

223 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:41:43pm

Apologies if this has been mentioned up-thread, but has anyone checked this bum's service history to see if he really, "served 6 tours over seas, where he has several medals. He received a Purple heart, Silver and Bronze star, Combat Infantry Badge and a Presidential citation for his actions in the Special Forces."

I'm very suspicious, and wouldn't be surprised to find out that he served one enlistment (if the jerk even finished one), never left the States, and was a non-combat MOS.

224 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:41:58pm

re: #206 Occasional Reader

Ah, I see this has been amply covered. (Must skim thread first before posting!)

You can either skim ... or milk it.

But if you do the latter, we'll turn you out and pasture-ize you.

225 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:42:22pm
suspicion of murdering two people (including a 9-year old girl)

Monster.

Coward.

Scumbag.

226 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:42:25pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

Neo-Nazis are in the Army now

Why the U.S. military is ignoring its own regulations and permitting white supremacists to join its ranks.

This is as much an open secret as gays serving. Retention comes first.

227 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:42:38pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

I have no issues at all with the report, and no issues with this report...

[Link: theplumline.whorunsgov.com...]

I think that's a great site.

228 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:42:46pm

re: #201 Occasional Reader

So we have a "Gunny" (USMC) who served in the Special Forces (Army)?

Riiiiiight.

[bullshit detector redlining]

It wouldn't be the first time someone claimed to be military but wasn't. I've seen far too many guys claiming to have been former military while they panhandle. It's easy to tell (even from this civilian's point of view) that they're full of crap.

229 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:42:48pm

re: #187 soxfan4life

If you transfer branches you can keep the medals earned in your former service, you just have to put them in the right order on your dress uniform. I believe they go below all medals awarded in your current branch.

Interservice medals, especially Medal of Honor, Silver Star, and Bronze Star would stay 1,2,3 on the uniform....

But it's been so long since I had to know that stuff.

230 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:42:56pm

re: #176 coldwarrior

nope, you dont wanna be in the action that gets those ribbons.

Unless you're John Kerry.

231 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:43:15pm

re: #209 iceweasel

the potential to incite individuals or small groups toward violence. If such violence were to occur, it likely would be isolated, small-scale, and directed at specific immigration-related targets.


That's interesting.

Interesting because normally that person would be called a "lone wolf" (BY ANY ADMINISTRATION) if it was a sudden Jihad outbreak.

There is no such thing as a Lone Wolf terrorist.

232 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:43:16pm

re: #223 Son of the Black Dog

Yes, a few of us have been discussing how he was supposedly in an Army unit and received an Army combat infantry badge, but he's called "gunny," a nickname usually used for Marine Corps gunnery sergeants.

233 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:43:17pm

re: #216 buzzsawmonkey

0bama?

234 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:43:34pm

re: #211 Honorary Yooper

Also it has been tough to recruit over the past few years so the military would just look the other way.

235 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:43:58pm

re: #223 Son of the Black Dog

Apologies if this has been mentioned up-thread, but has anyone checked this bum's service history to see if he really, "served 6 tours over seas, where he has several medals. He received a Purple heart, Silver and Bronze star, Combat Infantry Badge and a Presidential citation for his actions in the Special Forces."

I'm very suspicious, and wouldn't be surprised to find out that he served one enlistment (if the jerk even finished one), never left the States, and was a non-combat MOS.

I'm skeptical that anyone could serve six tours...after a couple you have skills needed elsewhere presumably

236 Lynn B.  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:44:05pm

re: #216 buzzsawmonkey

Perhaps the "Special Forces" referred to had something to do with the Special Olympics, or something of the sort.

Not funny, Buzz.

This guy clearly suffers from an "intellectual disability" of an entirely different sort.

[Link: www.specialolympics.org...]

237 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:44:07pm

re: #229 JCM

Interservice medals, especially Medal of Honor, Silver Star, and Bronze Star would stay 1,2,3 on the uniform....

But it's been so long since I had to know that stuff.

It goes Medal of Honor, Service Valor Medals, then interservice Medals

238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:44:14pm

re: #205 doppelganglander

Based on that description, it's very nice to meet you.

/female
//married
///sigh

Control thyself

239 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:44:38pm

re: #205 doppelganglander

Based on that description, it's very nice to meet you.

/female
//married
///sigh

LOL!

Not sure if my ex meant that as a good thing or a bad thing. Of course she was also once asked by her college roommates (she was 21 and I was 31 when we first started dating) what it was like to date someone so much older. Her response:

"Oh, it's okay... he's really immature."

She was a clever one...

240 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:44:38pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

That's nothing new....the Army had problems with that when I was in some 10+ years ago.

241 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:44:40pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

This is rapidly becoming my favorite left wing site on the web. I know I can always log on daily and see headline after headline demonizing conservatives.

Keep it up, Charles. Good work !

Look, you fucking asshole: these killers are not conservatives.

242 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:44:50pm

William Ayers is still a FREE man, living in Chicago...........

/Kerry got 3 Purple Hearts in 3 months..........

243 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:02pm

re: #238 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Control thyself

You should be glad Catttt isn't here. She'd be demanding pictures.

244 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:08pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

Tom Metzger is the former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and current leader of the White Aryan Resistance. He tells me the military has never been more tolerant of racial extremists. "Now they are letting everybody in," he says.


Well, someone talk to the C in C about that, please. It's still Bush, right?

245 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:19pm

re: #222 Ben Hur

Gang Activity in the U.S. Military

31 Flavors.

Alas, it is impossible to completely vet every person entering the Armed Forces. This is why we (in the various branches of service) are subjected to tedious and repetitive briefings on all manner of gang activity, tatoos, behaviors, et cetera.

246 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:24pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

Killgore, that's a great article. It mentions how white supremacists have been infiltrating the military for years despite the military's best efforts to keep them out, and also how the increasing need for recruits has meant that unfortunately more people are slipping through the system:

When it comes to screening out racists at recruitment centers, military regulations appear to have collapsed. "We don't exclude people from the army based on their thoughts," says S. Douglas Smith, an Army public affairs officer. "We exclude based on behavior." He says an "offensive" or "extremist" tattoo "might be a reason for them not to be in the military." Or it might not. "We try to educate recruiters on extremist tattoos," he says, but "the tattoo is a relatively subjective decision" and shouldn't in itself bar enlistment.

What about something as obvious as a swastika? "A swastika would trigger questions," Smith says. "But again, if the gentlemen said, 'I like the way the swastika looked,' and had clean criminal record, it's possible we would allow that person in." "There are First Amendment rights," he adds.

In the spring, I telephoned at random five Army recruitment centers across the country. I said I was interested in joining up and mentioned that I had a pair of "SS bolts" tattooed on my arm. A 2000 military brochure stated that SS bolts were a tattoo image that should raise suspicions. But none of the recruiters reacted negatively, and when pressed directly about the tattoo, not one said it would be an outright problem. A recruiter in Houston was typical; he said he'd never heard of SS bolts and just encouraged me to come on in.

It's in the interest of recruiters to interpret recruiting standards loosely. If they fail to meet targets, based on the number of soldiers they enlist, they may have to attend a punitive counseling session, and it could hurt any chance for promotion. When, in 2005, the Army relaxed regulations on non-extremist tattoos, such as body art covering the hands, neck and face, this cut recruiters even more slack.

Even the education of recruiters about how to identify extremists seems to have fallen by the wayside. The 2005 Department of Defense report concluded that recruiting personnel "were not aware of having received systematic training on recognizing and responding to possible terrorists" — a designation that includes white supremacists — "who try to enlist." Participation on white supremacist Web sites would be an easy way to screen out extremist recruits, but the report found that the military had not clarified which Web forums were gathering places for extremists.

247 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:27pm

re: #83 Charles

I hope my article made it clear that I am skeptical about the military claims.

Got that, no problem.

There have been proposals floated for some time now to put military decoration recipients awards and some form of identification online. Impersonations have soared in recent years, and this would be one way to combat fraud. The sticking point, of course, is how to provide identification without...identifying anyone. Could be an opt-in service, with the military providing confirmation of decorations once someone made the decision to appear. It would certainly be welcome in this case; the claims here have a certain stink hovering over them.

248 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:51pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

It's not as tough as you would think. The gangs, for example, try to send in members who have GEDs or high school diplomas and relatively clean records. Essentially, they're using the military as their own personal training camp.

249 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:53pm

re: #221 DEZes

Okay.

LOL!
*rimshot*

250 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:58pm
The FBI's 2007 report on gang membership in the military states that the military's recruit screening process is ineffective, allows gang members/extremists to enter the military, and lists at least eight instances in the last three years in which gang members have obtained military weapons for their illegal enterprises.[22] "Gang Activity in the U.S. Armed Forces Increasing", dated January 12, 2007, states that street gangs including the Gangster Disciples, Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Maravilla, Norteños, Sureños, Vice Lords, Black P. Stones, Tiny Rascal Gang, Asian Boyz gang, Friends Stand United, Armenian Power, Trinitario, Nuestra Familia, and Outlaws, criminal organizations including the American Mafia, the Chinese Tongs, the Chinese Triads, the Irish Mob, the Israeli mafia, the Japanese Yakuza, Los Zetas, and the Russian Mafia, and various white supremacist groups including the Ku Klux Klan have been documented on military installations both domestic and international, although recruiting gang members violates military regulations.[23]

The FBI believes that gang members may enlist in the military to escape their current environment or gang lifestyle. Some gang members may also enlist to receive weapons, combat, and convoy support training; to obtain access to weapons and explosives; or as an alternative to incarceration. Upon discharge, they may employ their military training against law enforcement officials and rival gang members. Such military training could ultimately result in more organized, sophisticated, and deadly gangs, as well as an increase in deadly assaults on law enforcement officers.[24]

A January 2007 article in the Chicago Sun-Times reports that gang members in the military are involved in the theft and sale of military weapons, ammunition, and equipment, including body armor. According to a conversation recorded by an undercover FBI agent, one U.S. soldier may have stolen military body armor with intentions to supply Chicago gangs with the stolen equipment.[25] The Sun-Times began investigating the gang activity in the military after receiving photos of gang graffiti showing up in Iraq. A 2006 Sun-Times article reports that gangs encourage members to enter the military to learn urban warfare techniques to teach other gang members.[26]

In 2006, Scott Barfield, a Defense Department investigator, said there is an online network of gangs and extremists, and that: "They're communicating with each other about weapons, about recruiting, about keeping their identities secret, about organizing within the military."[27]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Google is fun.

251 aRedPhishHead  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:45:58pm

Get 'em outta here, I say.

Natural selection seems to be weeding some of these fruitcakes out on its own by these random bursts - it's just a shame that other people have to get hurt.

252 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:46:02pm

re: #214 JCM

By the way Welcome....

Now do you hatchling duty and buy the room a round!

;-)

If any of you live in Los Angeles... beers are on me at Red Rock!

;)

253 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:46:08pm

re: #237 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It goes Medal of Honor, Service Valor Medals, then interservice Medals

Mixing my Service Valor, and Interservice into one pot....

254 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:46:26pm

re: #208 psyop

I am fairly sure those are universal medals, meaning any branch of service can be awarded them.

There are many decorations that cross branches, but many are service specific. It can all get very complex. Which is why someone who has a little knowledge may fool some people, they won't get it past someone who has spent a great deal of their life around it.

yep.

i read gunny and CIB in the same sentence, the bs detector went off

255 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:46:28pm

re: #241 MandyManners

Look, you fucking asshole: these killers are not conservatives.

If I may inquire, is your mom Okay?

256 dingleB  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:46:50pm

re: #223 Son of the Black Dog

Yes, he is not listed as the recipient or either the Navy Cross or the Silver Star GWOT, unless he is one of the 18 Navy Seals whose citations are not public record for national security reasons (which is highly unlikely). Going back all the way to 1983, Grenada, there is no record of his award(s).

257 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:47:48pm

re: #245 psyop

Alas, it is impossible to completely vet every person entering the Armed Forces. This is why we (in the various branches of service) are subjected to tedious and repetitive briefings on all manner of gang activity, tatoos, behaviors, et cetera.


That was my point.

258 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:47:48pm

re: #210 Enkidu90046

LOL... no, I meant the literary character of Enkidu, not myself. If I recall correctly, he was given the strength of half the animals in the forest and was basically a wild man, until he laid with a woman. He lost his strength but gained knowledge and was civilized.

this is literary?

hell, the same thing happened to me :)

259 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:47:59pm

re: #229 JCM

Interservice medals, especially Medal of Honor, Silver Star, and Bronze Star would stay 1,2,3 on the uniform....

But it's been so long since I had to know that stuff.

The last time I put together my dress uniform, there was a website where you simply entered in all of your ribbons and medals, and it arranged your rows and other decorations correctly, so you merely had to copy off the monitor and be perfect.

Still had to pull out that little measuring tool to make sure all the margins were correct. That is the worst part....

260 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:48:01pm

re: #243 doppelganglander

You should be glad Catttt isn't here. She'd be demanding pictures.

LOL!

261 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:48:02pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

I know I can always log on daily...

Not any more, you can't.

262 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:48:08pm

re: #241 MandyManners

How goes the family?

263 Silvergirl  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:48:17pm

re: #252 Enkidu90046

If any of you live in Los Angeles... beers are on me at Red Rock!

;)

Ahah. I was guessing that the 90046 was a zip code.

264 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:48:28pm

re: #252 Enkidu90046

If any of you live in Los Angeles... beers are on me at Red Rock!

;)

City of Angels! I'm a couple of miles north.... Seattle (belly of the blue beast).

I can be there in 18 hours if I drive and leave now.....

265 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:48:36pm

re: #210 Enkidu90046

LOL... no, I meant the literary character of Enkidu, not myself. If I recall correctly, he was given the strength of half the animals in the forest and was basically a wild man, until he laid with a woman. He lost his strength but gained knowledge and was civilized.

And then he hooked up with Gilgamesh for some M2M frolics...

266 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:48:37pm

re: #229 JCM

Interservice medals, especially Medal of Honor, Silver Star, and Bronze Star would stay 1,2,3 on the uniform....

But it's been so long since I had to know that stuff.


That is what they have books for and Senior Enlisted Advisor's for!

267 Plain ol' Curt  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:48:39pm

I sure hope this maggot wasn't really a Marine. We don't appreciate this kind of dishonor.

268 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:49:09pm

re: #261 Last Mohican

Not any more, you can't.

That train is long gone. ;)

269 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:49:17pm

From what I can gather, no Purple heart either.

270 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:49:29pm

re: #247 SixDegrees

There have been proposals floated for some time now to put military decoration recipients awards and some form of identification online.

I was talking with some of the guys from my old SEAL team about this problem just the other day.

Whenever these imposter assholes get up to this stuff, it's like they're trying to devalue my own Medal of Honor With Gold Stars And Glittery Oak Leaf Clusters. And that makes me mad.

271 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:49:38pm

re: #209 iceweasel

What makes you think I didn't?

Also, what makes everybody think that nobody but foaming-at-the-mouth John Birchers and neo-nazis are the only ones who have a problem with it?

Are the American Leigon and Veterans of Foreign Wars right-wing hate groups now, too?

272 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:50:08pm

re: #270 Occasional Reader

I was talking with some of the guys from my old SEAL team

Are you serious?

273 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:50:15pm

re: #209 iceweasel

I read the report. I thought it was poorly written and not ready for release.

Here.

various rightwing extremists, including militias and white supremacists

This seems to say that militias are rightwing extremists akin to the KKK. I don't have that perception. Yes some are. Some aren't. The threat/risk assessment seems to be poorly done.

On our local CH 7 CBS news Forde was reported as a minuteman activist with the goal of robbing drug dealers to fund the minutemen. Her primary identity in the news article was as a "minuteman activist". No distinction's were being made to focus on who she really is. She is closer to being a deluded prison gang associate out of the Army of God then she is being one of the mainstream minuteman groups.

If right wing extremism is important to the feds they would start isolating prison populations into solitary confinements. Interaction would only be with prison officials.

274 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:50:21pm

re: #258 coldwarrior

this is literary?

hell, the same thing happened to me :)

From the Gilgamesh epic. One of mankind's oldest written stories.

275 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:50:40pm

re: #272 Ben Hur

Are you serious?

Ignore that.

276 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:50:45pm

re: #248 Honorary Yooper

It's not as tough as you would think. The gangs, for example, try to send in members who have GEDs or high school diplomas and relatively clean records. Essentially, they're using the military as their own personal training camp.

Plus they get access to the latest toys, so stuff ends up being reported "damaged/destroyed in training" and gets smuggled off base. That was a problem here at Ft. Lewis a while back.

277 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:50:46pm

re: #272 Ben Hur

Are you serious?

hahaha!...why, yes!

278 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:50:53pm

re: #259 psyop

Never had that problem, only one and that one is perfectly centered. :)

279 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:51:01pm

re: #270 Occasional Reader

I was talking with some of the guys from my old SEAL team about this problem just the other day.

Whenever these imposter assholes get up to this stuff, it's like they're trying to devalue my own Medal of Honor With Gold Stars And Glittery Oak Leaf Clusters. And that makes me mad.

SEAL ... or a sea lyin'?

/LOL!

280 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:51:18pm

re: #220 Nevergiveup

My dad got the Bronze Star at Iwo Jima.

thank him for me

281 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:51:22pm

re: #264 JCM

City of Angels! I'm a couple of miles north.... Seattle (belly of the blue beast).

I can be there in 18 hours if I drive and leave now.....

I am originally from the Seattle area. I grew up in Federal Way and went to the U-Dub during the golden years of Don James. I've lived in Los Angeles for almost 11 years now.

I do miss Seattle, though.

282 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:51:29pm

re: #250 Ben Hur

I think "Tiny Rascal Gang" and "Armenian Power" are kind of... reaching, aren't they?

283 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:51:57pm

re: #272 Ben Hur

Are you serious?

heh ... look at his second paragraph

284 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:05pm

re: #268 DEZes

That train is long gone. ;)

So it is. Seems unlike Stinky to boot a loser like that but leave his flounce still standing. Oh well. It wasn't much of a flounce. Maybe not worth the effort to delete.

285 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:06pm

re: #258 coldwarrior

this is literary?

hell, the same thing happened to me :)

Unfortunately... I think it happened to me too...

:(

286 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:09pm

re: #259 psyop

The last time I put together my dress uniform, there was a website where you simply entered in all of your ribbons and medals, and it arranged your rows and other decorations correctly, so you merely had to copy off the monitor and be perfect.

Still had to pull out that little measuring tool to make sure all the margins were correct. That is the worst part....

I caught part of a History Channel (IIRC) piece on the Tomb Guards at the Tomb of the Unknowns.

Uniform was measure to 1/64ths of inch.

287 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:10pm

re: #265 Throbert McGee

And then he hooked up with Gilgamesh for some M2M frolics...

I think you must have a different translation than the one I got in school.

288 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:11pm

re: #272 Ben Hur

Are you serious?

Why would I start now?

(No, I'm bein' all ironical n' stuff. I was never even a Cub Scout.)

289 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:12pm

re: #270 Occasional Reader

I was talking with some of the guys from my old SEAL team about this problem just the other day.

Whenever these imposter assholes get up to this stuff, it's like they're trying to devalue my own Medal of Honor With Gold Stars And Glittery Oak Leaf Clusters. And that makes me mad.

There was a case in the news just within the last couple of weeks. The worm who had been making speaking fees from all sorts of engagements while pretending to be a vet claimed that he hadn't hurt anyone. The prosecutor's reply was basically: Bullshit. You've hurt every member of the military who actually served.

290 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:18pm

re: #241 MandyManners

Look, you fucking asshole: these killers are not conservatives.

Conservatives value human life and the rule of law.

291 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:35pm

re: #279 pre-Boomer Marine brat

SEAL ... or a sea lyin'?

/LOL!

Oooh, that's a good one!

292 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:41pm

re: #271 Fenway_Nation

What makes everybody think that nobody but foaming-at-the-mouth John Birchers and neo-nazis are the only ones who have a problem with it?

I think just the opposite: I think a lot of people have issues with it when it's really about the neoNazis and the Birchers and people like that. Not all veterans, not all conservatives, not all people on the right.

293 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:46pm

re: #280 coldwarrior

thank him for me

Well he passed away in 1984, but I am sure he would have appreciated your thoughts. Thanks

294 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:52:49pm

re: #275 Ben Hur

Ignore that.

That was one big GOTCHA moment there. I almost was suckered in myself.

295 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:53:14pm

Existence of murderous right-wing lunatics does not excuse the governments outright refusal to enforce existing immigration laws.
And being against illegal immigration is not the same as being prejudiced against immigrants.

296 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:53:26pm

re: #270 Occasional Reader

Oh yeah? Well my medal of honor has orange stars. And green clovers.

297 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:53:30pm

re: #232 Last Mohican

Yes, a few of us have been discussing how he was supposedly in an Army unit and received an Army combat infantry badge, but he's called "gunny," a nickname usually used for Marine Corps gunnery sergeants.

I have the impression he got the gunny title from watching NCIS or the Clint Eastwood movie.

298 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:53:36pm

re: #265 Throbert McGee

And then he hooked up with Gilgamesh for some M2M frolics...

I am hoping that isn't what the ex was referring to when giving me that moniker...

:o

299 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:53:41pm

re: #274 SixDegrees

From the Gilgamesh epic. One of mankind's oldest written stories.

Ginger, or Mary Ann?

300 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:53:52pm

re: #273 hazzyday
DHS report....

various rightwing extremists, including militias and white supremacists

your interpretation....

militias are rightwing extremists akin to the KKK.

You are trying to create a strawman argument and it's never ever going to work no matter how much you believe it.

301 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:53:58pm

re: #285 Enkidu90046

Unfortunately... I think it happened to me too...

:(


From one steel worshipper, to another, IT HAS 100% HAPPENED TO ME!

302 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:54:07pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

Also it has been tough to recruit over the past few years so the military would just look the other way.

Source for that assertion, please?

303 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:54:11pm

re: #296 Last Mohican

Oh yeah? Well my medal of honor has orange stars. And green clovers.

No purple horse shoes? PFFFFFFFT! ;)

304 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:54:14pm

re: #216 buzzsawmonkey

Perhaps the "Special Forces" referred to had something to do with the Special Olympics, or something of the sort.

Retarded Policeman Episode #10: "Mexicans"

305 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:54:34pm

re: #281 Enkidu90046

I am originally from the Seattle area. I grew up in Federal Way and went to the U-Dub during the golden years of Don James. I've lived in Los Angeles for almost 11 years now.

I do miss Seattle, though.

Spent some time in the early 80's in Dreadful Way, when I was first looking for Fire Department jobs.

You probably won't recognize Federal Way any more.

306 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:54:38pm

re: #276 FurryOldGuyJeans

Plus they get access to the latest toys, so stuff ends up being reported "damaged/destroyed in training" and gets smuggled off base. That was a problem here at Ft. Lewis a while back.

Knew of some armorers doing time in the Brig for pulling that.

307 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:55:00pm

re: #296 Last Mohican

Oh yeah? Well my medal of honor has orange stars. And green clovers.

No glitter? Pffft.

308 jorline  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:55:07pm

re: #286 JCM

I caught part of a History Channel (IIRC) piece on the Tomb Guards at the Tomb of the Unknowns.

Uniform was measure to 1/64ths of inch.

excellent show

309 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:55:13pm

re: #286 JCM

I caught part of a History Channel (IIRC) piece on the Tomb Guards at the Tomb of the Unknowns.

Uniform was measure to 1/64ths of inch.

That's why i had to get out of the military. At best I can measure to 1/4 of an inch. 1/8 is questionable.

310 BignJames  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:55:20pm

re: #286 JCM

I caught part of a History Channel (IIRC) piece on the Tomb Guards at the Tomb of the Unknowns.

Uniform was measure to 1/64ths of inch.


I knew one of those guys....they get haircuts 2 or 3 times a week.

311 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:55:49pm

I can only speak for the Navy. From what I read and hear, retention is relatively high, but certain ranks and ratings are not assured of being retained at all.

312 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:55:51pm

re: #292 iceweasel

But at best, the DHS did a piss-poor job of differentiating those who are pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-illegal immigration etc. from criminals, neo-nazis and right-wing hate groups.

And that's if I give the DHS the benefit of the doubt....

313 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:56:29pm

re: #281 Enkidu90046

I am originally from the Seattle area. I grew up in Federal Way and went to the U-Dub during the golden years of Don James. I've lived in Los Angeles for almost 11 years now.

I do miss Seattle, though.

It ain't the Seattle you would remember, and definitely not for the better.

314 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:56:35pm

re: #291 Occasional Reader

*blush*
Thank you.

315 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:56:48pm

re: #311 Nevergiveup

I can only speak for the Navy. From what I read and hear, retention is relatively high, but certain ranks and ratings are not assured of being retained at all.

What about promotions? My son passed the test for E-5 but was told no one was advancing this year in his rating.

316 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:57:41pm

re: #301 Ben Hur

From one steel worshipper, to another, IT HAS 100% HAPPENED TO ME!

The good news is that I have converted my garage into a fully functioning home gym that beats the crap out of any commercial gym you can find in the Los Angeles area. Still, I just don't have the drive for 2-3 hour workouts like I used to, nor the training partners to push me like the "good old days".

317 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:57:50pm

re: #274 SixDegrees

From the Gilgamesh epic. One of mankind's oldest written stories.

yes, i know.

318 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:58:30pm

re: #315 doppelganglander

What about promotions? My son passed the test for E-5 but was told no one was advancing this year in his rating.

All depends on his evals. If he is not an ass-kisser, fuggedit.

319 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:58:51pm

WH to CA: Sorry, no dinero

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House on Tuesday dashed hopes that the federal government would help California overcome a mammoth budget crisis that has brought the state dangerously close to an economic meltdown, saying the state will have to solve the problem on its own.

"It's obviously not an easy time for the state of California," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs told a briefing when asked if the administration would provide emergency financing for the state.

"We'll continue to monitor the challenges that they have, but this budgetary problem unfortunately is one that they're going to have to solve," Gibbs said.

320 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:59:16pm

re: #301 Ben Hur

From one steel worshipper, to another, IT HAS 100% HAPPENED TO ME!

"Steel worshipper"?

Is this that Conan dealie?

321 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:59:23pm

re: #273 hazzyday

I read the report. I thought it was poorly written and not ready for release.

If right wing extremism is important to the feds they would start isolating prison populations into solitary confinements. Interaction would only be with prison officials.

1) it wasn't released; it was leaked.
2) Your local TV station does sound like it did a disservice.
3) My understanding is that they're trying very hard, especially with members of the Aryan Nation (or whatever the main white supremacist prison gang is, I don't remember-- WAR?-- to keep the gang leaders isolated and in confinement, but the problem is widespread and endemic.

I read a very scary article about (3) a couple of years ago; I'll see if it's online. It was all about the birth of the white supremacist prison gang movement out in Bakersfield in the 70's or so and its takeover of the prison environment. Transfering the members of the original gang just helped the gang spread into other prisons; the members immediately started new cells (ha) and recruited new members. Thus we have the current situation.

322 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:59:36pm

re: #313 FurryOldGuyJeans

It ain't the Seattle you would remember, and definitely not for the better.

Hmmm... I am sorry to hear that. My parents are actually in town (they still live in Federal Way) and reported to me that the woods that I grew up on have all been chopped down to build McMansions. I was deeply saddened to hear that.

323 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:59:52pm

re: #319 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Money went to all the states that said they didn't want the stimulus $$$

//

324 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:59:54pm

re: #286 JCM

I caught part of a History Channel (IIRC) piece on the Tomb Guards at the Tomb of the Unknowns.

Uniform was measure to 1/64ths of inch.

Yeah, and they have to sew on their own patches, and shine real leather dress shoes (not the fake ones you can get these days that just takes some windex to bring out the shine).

Talk about attention to detail. Still, a great honor to be a part of that.

325 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 2:59:58pm

re: #290 MandyManners

Conservatives value human life and the rule of law.

I do agree, but careful - you're teetering on the verge of our favorite fallacy.

326 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:00:27pm

re: #316 Enkidu90046

The good news is that I have converted my garage into a fully functioning home gym that beats the crap out of any commercial gym you can find in the Los Angeles area. Still, I just don't have the drive for 2-3 hour workouts like I used to, nor the training partners to push me like the "good old days".

Dream come true.

When Crom wills it, it shall be mine!

327 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:00:37pm

re: #315 doppelganglander

What about promotions? My son passed the test for E-5 but was told no one was advancing this year in his rating.

What service?

I used to serve in the USMC reserves.

328 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:00:44pm

re: #319 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Addicts. Something has to force the State of California spenders to just stop.

329 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:01:03pm

re: #248 Honorary Yooper

It's not as tough as you would think. The gangs, for example, try to send in members who have GEDs or high school diplomas and relatively clean records. Essentially, they're using the military as their own personal training camp.

That's a problem, and a black mark on Bush all the way down. Not only could thugs act out and damage the rep of the USA, our training produces some of the best warriors on the planet, and we don't want to train people who will later go on to serve in gangs or militias with private agendas.

But then, some people do change, like Marco Martinez. So it isn't entirely unreasonably to let some people pass with questionable tattoos, but should entail close scutiny before approval.

330 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:01:15pm

re: #322 Enkidu90046

Hmmm... I am sorry to hear that. My parents are actually in town (they still live in Federal Way) and reported to me that the woods that I grew up on have all been chopped down to build McMansions. I was deeply saddened to hear that.

The Californication of Western Washington is nearly complete. Now cities have to stop allowing yards for homes so they can squeeze more in, and it will be a wrap.

331 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:01:32pm

re: #299 Occasional Reader

Ginger, or Mary Ann?

mary ann

332 avanti  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:01:37pm

re: #172 Walter L. Newton

OT - it appears that Obama is doing something about what is happening in Iran...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. State Department said on Tuesday it had contacted the social networking service Twitter to urge it to delay a planned upgrade that would have cut daytime service to Iranians who are disputing their election.


Confirmation that the U.S. government had contacted Twitter came as the Obama administration sought to avoid suggestions it was meddling in Iran's internal affairs as the Islamic Republic battled to control deadly street protests over the election result.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

When it comes to not meddling, he's lying as well as any good politician. Good for him.

Has to be the first time Obama interfered with a private businesses operation that found approval from both sides.:) BTW, interfering with Iran while claiming you are not is often a good thing.,

333 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:01:40pm

re: #297 hazzyday

I have the impression he got the gunny title from watching NCIS or the Clint Eastwood movie.

Or the History Channels' "Mail Bag" with R. Lee Ermy (USMC, ret.)

334 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:01:50pm

re: #320 Occasional Reader

"Steel worshipper"?

Is this that Conan dealie?

Effen A.

I will not be cast out of Valhalla!

335 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:01:53pm

re: #325 Dianna

I do agree, but careful - you're teetering on the verge of our favorite fallacy.

No true Mandy?

336 SummerSong  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:02:16pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

This is rapidly becoming my favorite left wing site on the web. I know I can always log on daily and see headline after headline demonizing conservatives.

Keep it up, Charles. Good work !

Your nic - at first glance it reads as, "venomous_kid"

337 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:02:25pm

re: #301 Ben Hur

From one steel worshipper, to another,

Do you want to know what real power is?

Mandy... come here. That's it. Step right off that cliff.

338 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:02:56pm

re: #290 MandyManners

Conservatives value human life and the rule of law.


utterly false on a number of levels i can't even count to

339 albusteve  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:02:57pm

re: #330 FurryOldGuyJeans

The Californication of Western Washington is nearly complete. Now cities have to stop allowing yards for homes so they can squeeze more in, and it will be a wrap.

ABQ is surrounded by reservations and federal land...the pack em in but there is a limit...easily defined...kinda cool

340 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:03:08pm

re: #315 doppelganglander

What about promotions? My son passed the test for E-5 but was told no one was advancing this year in his rating.

Yes in some cases that is true. To be honest being a Stupid Officer, I am not up on all the enlisted ratings, ranks, and promotions but it is not a guarantee at all. Besides the tests, the fit reps also come into play. There are certain Areas, the navy would not mind cutting back. money is tight

341 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:03:09pm

re: #338 SpaceJesus

utterly false on a number of levels i can't even count to

that's a lot by the way

342 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:03:20pm

re: #318 FurryOldGuyJeans

All depends on his evals. If he is not an ass-kisser, fuggedit.

He's not an ass-kisser, but he gets along really well with his superiors and finished first in his on-the-job training class. He's plowing through his self-study courses at the rate of one a week, when they normally take a month to complete. Oddly, he doesn't especially love military life and doesn't plan to stay in beyond his initial commitment, but he's determined to be the best they've got in the meantime.

343 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:03:22pm

re: #300 Killgore Trout

DHS report....

You are trying to create a strawman argument and it's never ever going to work no matter how much you believe it.

Are there "White Supremists" that aren't right wing? Militia is there in the sentence on equal terms. I'm never interested in strawmen. If I draw an incorrect line of logic it's because I am not reading something correctly. That's an interpretation on your part. It's only cognitive dissonance that makes one drift off the facts one way or the other. I'm open to interpreting it correctly.

I saw the DHS memo as a political BS game that politicians like to play. Been there done that. It's a distraction from actual law enforcement I think.

But can I gather then from your comment that you believe all militias are right wing extremists groups? I don't have that belief.

344 BignJames  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:03:56pm

re: #324 psyop

Yeah, and they have to sew on their own patches, and shine real leather dress shoes (not the fake ones you can get these days that just takes some windex to bring out the shine).

Talk about attention to detail. Still, a great honor to be a part of that.


Ever been to the Tomb? Watched the changing of the guard? It's worth the trip if you get the chance.

345 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:04:46pm

re: #342 doppelganglander

He's not an ass-kisser, but he gets along really well with his superiors and finished first in his on-the-job training class. He's plowing through his self-study courses at the rate of one a week, when they normally take a month to complete. Oddly, he doesn't especially love military life and doesn't plan to stay in beyond his initial commitment, but he's determined to be the best they've got in the meantime.

He doesn't have to be a ass kisser, that's not true.

346 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:05pm

Obama sez......

Well, I think first of all, it's important to understand that although there is amazing ferment taking place in Iran, that the difference between Ahmadinejad and Mousavi in terms of their actual policies may not be as great as has been advertised. Either way, we were going to be dealing with an Iranian regime that has historically been hostile to the United States, that has caused some problems in the neighborhood and is pursuing nuclear weapons. And so we've got long-term interests in having them not weaponize nuclear power and stop funding organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas. And that would be true whoever came out on top in this election.


The second thing that I think's important to recognize is that the easiest way for reactionary forces inside Iran to crush reformers is to say it's the US that is encouraging those reformers. So what I've said is, `Look, it's up to the Iranian people to make a decision. We are not meddling.' And, you know, ultimately the question that the leadership in Iran has to answer is their own credibility in the eyes of the Iranian people. And when you've got 100,000 people who are out on the streets peacefully protesting, and they're having to be scattered through violence and gunshots, what that tells me is the Iranian people are not convinced of the legitimacy of the election. And my hope is that the regime responds not with violence, but with a recognition that the universal principles of peaceful expression and democracy are ones that should be affirmed. Am I optimistic that that will happen? You know, I take a wait-and-see approach. Either way, it's important for the United States to engage in the tough diplomacy around those permanent security concerns that we have--nuclear weapons, funding of terrorism. That's not going to go away, and I think it's important for us to make sure that we've reached out.

347 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:05pm

re: #326 Ben Hur

Dream come true.

When Crom wills it, it shall be mine!

Ahhh, the riddle of steel... you know it, don't you boy!

I have a home built Olympic lifting platform, competition Olympic lifting bar, 140 kg of bumper plates, 545 lbs. of metal plates, power rack, adjustable bench, pullup bar, dip station, kettlebells from 35-70 lbs., competition powerlifting bar, glute-ham raise machine, bands, 2.5" thick wrestling mats (and wall pads) boxing and muay thai gear, 90 lb. heavy bag, 90 lb. throwing dummy, and probably a bunch more gizmos that I am forgetting.

348 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:09pm
349 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:20pm

re: #327 Enkidu90046

What service?

I used to serve in the USMC reserves.

Navy, like his dad. Same rating, actually. Thank you for your service.

350 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:20pm

re: #313 FurryOldGuyJeans

It ain't the Seattle you would remember, and definitely not for the better.

Hey, I'm trying! I used everyone of my mailbox voter registrations to vote against McDimwitt!

////////

351 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:39pm

re: #338 SpaceJesus

utterly false on a number of levels i can't even count to

Public Schooling fails again.

352 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:46pm

re: #332 avanti

Oddly enough, I don't see how asking Twitter to postpone scheduled maintainence is interfering in Iran's internal affairs. It's not like Twitter is an Iranian company...and it's not like it's exclusively used by Iranians.

/The Revolution Will Not Be Tweeted

353 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:56pm

re: #332 avanti

Has to be the first time Obama interfered with a private businesses operation that found approval from both sides.:) BTW, interfering with Iran while claiming you are not is often a good thing.,

I have one problem with your reply above. You think like a liberal. You used the term "interfered with a private business."

That is such a socialistic way of saying it, isn't it. No Avanti, he didn't interfere, he didn't force, he didn't command, the administration "urged."

That's what scare me about the left, when I hear you speaking like that, because, it makes me feel you would have no problem with the administration "interfering" with private business.

Heck, you said it yourself. Not Obama.

354 BignJames  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:05:58pm

re: #341 SpaceJesus

that's a lot by the way


Prolly no more than 20.

355 psyop  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:06:03pm

re: #344 BignJames

Ever been to the Tomb? Watched the changing of the guard? It's worth the trip if you get the chance.

Not yet, unfortunately. It is on my list of things I must do in this life. I think I will wait until both of my kids are old enough to have a modest understanding of what they are seeing.

356 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:06:09pm

re: #349 doppelganglander

Navy, like his dad. Same rating, actually. Thank you for your service.

What's his rating

357 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:06:14pm

re: #343 hazzyday

But can I gather then from your comment that you believe all militias are right wing extremists groups?


You have serious reading comprehension skills that I can not help you with.

358 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:06:16pm

re: #341 SpaceJesus

that's a lot by the way

You can't get your shoes unlaced? Or were you inspired to superglue the velcro?

359 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:06:37pm

re: #337 Occasional Reader

Do you want to know what real power is?

Mandy... come here. That's it. Step right off that cliff.

You remember that scene on LOST?

360 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:06:46pm

re: #356 Nevergiveup

What's his rating

CTI3, Russian.

361 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:07:06pm

re: #347 Enkidu90046

Ahhh, the riddle of steel... you know it, don't you boy!

I have a home built Olympic lifting platform, competition Olympic lifting bar, 140 kg of bumper plates, 545 lbs. of metal plates, power rack, adjustable bench, pullup bar, dip station, kettlebells from 35-70 lbs., competition powerlifting bar, glute-ham raise machine, bands, 2.5" thick wrestling mats (and wall pads) boxing and muay thai gear, 90 lb. heavy bag, 90 lb. throwing dummy, and probably a bunch more gizmos that I am forgetting.


Very nice!

I've only recently gotten into kettle balls.

Funny how those funny Russian exercises actually were superior.

362 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:07:11pm

re: #347 Enkidu90046

Ahhh, the riddle of steel... you know it, don't you boy!

I have a home built Olympic lifting platform, competition Olympic lifting bar, 140 kg of bumper plates, 545 lbs. of metal plates, power rack, adjustable bench, pullup bar, dip station, kettlebells from 35-70 lbs., competition powerlifting bar, glute-ham raise machine, bands, 2.5" thick wrestling mats (and wall pads) boxing and muay thai gear, 90 lb. heavy bag, 90 lb. throwing dummy, and probably a bunch more gizmos that I am forgetting.


WHAT? No Thighmaster?!

363 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:07:22pm

Sheila Chandra - Taal

364 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:07:37pm

Wow.

Even starting to sound like him!

365 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:07:46pm

re: #330 FurryOldGuyJeans

The Californication of Western Washington is nearly complete. Now cities have to stop allowing yards for homes so they can squeeze more in, and it will be a wrap.

I've been offered 100k for my back yard by a developer.

366 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:08:15pm

re: #359 Walter L. Newton

You remember that scene on LOST?

No, I've never seen a full episode of "Lost" in my life. It's from the movie Conan The Barbarian.

367 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:08:26pm
368 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:08:40pm

re: #346 Killgore Trout

Well, I think first of all, it's important to understand that although there is amazing ferment taking place in Iran,

They're opening up a brewery there? Tabrizbrau? Esfehanlager?

369 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:08:44pm

re: #321 iceweasel

My first knowledge of right wing wackos was the posse comitatus in South Dakota. My first experience with white supremacists was on the streets of Seattle when a recruiter gave me a flyer on the street. That was when there were bombing and robbing banks in the northwest to finance their operations.

/s However the opposite race girlfriend put her foot down. Seattle is about as racially diverse as you can get I think.

370 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:08:48pm

re: #363 Jimmah

I want a pair of Tablas really bad.

371 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:09:14pm

BBL.

372 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:09:29pm

re: #360 doppelganglander

CTI3, Russian.

Really. I would say he might be pretty safe and in demand. I'm impressed.

373 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:09:34pm

re: #321 iceweasel


I read a very scary article about (3) a couple of years ago; I'll see if it's online. It was all about the birth of the white supremacist prison gang movement out in Bakersfield in the 70's or so and its takeover of the prison environment.

Found the article for those interested in the Aryan Brotherhood in prisons, its creation in 64 in San Quentin and its scope today; also the then-current efforts to keep them under control. Scared the crap out of me.

Here's part of the abstract:

ABSTRACT: ANNALS OF CRIME about the Aryan Brotherhood, a murderous gang that has proliferated through the U.S. prison system… Writer tells about a December 2002 raid by United States Marshals on members of the Aryan Brotherhood (A.B.) in prisons across the country. Before long the marshals had rounded up 29 inmates. They were flown to Los Angeles where they were accused of criminal conspiracy. Writer meets Gregory Jessner, the Assistant U.S. Attorney responsible for the indictments. “I think they may be the most murderous criminal organization in the United States.” Tells about the origins of the A.B. in 1964 in San Quentin, California and its expansion to other prisons.

Much more at link but article requires registration.
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

David Grann, Annals of Crime, “The Brand,” The New Yorker, February 16, 2004, p. 156

374 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:09:37pm

re: #366 Occasional Reader

No, I've never seen a full episode of "Lost" in my life. It's from the movie Conan The Barbarian.

Well, you will have about 7 months here to work on catching up on the first five seasons, I will help if needed.

375 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:09:40pm

re: #361 Ben Hur

I've only recently gotten into kettle balls.

Deep-friend Rocky Mountain Oysters?

376 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:10:06pm

re: #366 Occasional Reader

No, I've never seen a full episode of "Lost" in my life. It's from the movie Conan The Barbarian.

Steel isnt strong boy, flesh is stronger.
;)

377 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:10:14pm

re: #349 doppelganglander

Navy, like his dad. Same rating, actually. Thank you for your service.

I was only in the USMC reserves (artillery) and never saw any combat. But you are welcome, nonetheless.

378 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:10:22pm
379 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:10:29pm

re: #372 Nevergiveup

Really. I would say he might be pretty safe and in demand. I'm impressed.

Thank you. We're very proud of him.

380 avanti  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:10:58pm

re: #318 FurryOldGuyJeans

All depends on his evals. If he is not an ass-kisser, fuggedit.

There were always quota's. Maybe 100% of Electronics Tech's that passed would move up, maybe a tiny percentage of some other rates. Back when I was in, tech's got extra pay and bigger reenlistment bonuses.

381 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:11:01pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

You have serious reading comprehension skills that I can not help you with.

I'm just trying to get you to be accurate and reply with honesty to questions asked you. You want to be taken seriously on your research and yet are constantly complaining no one takes you seriously. This is why.

382 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:11:12pm

re: #338 SpaceJesus

utterly false on a number of levels i can't even count to

Well, no true Scotsman IS a fallacy - and 'no true conservative' is just the same fallacy with one word changed. I believe we've all been over this a few times have we not?

383 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:11:29pm

re: #378 Iron Fist

Was that when you converted to the worship of the Snake God?

:-)

The children of doom.

384 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:11:30pm

re: #367 buzzsawmonkey

I am the Thighmaster.

Are you the Gatekeeper?

I am the Abdominal Snowman.

385 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:11:57pm

re: #230 Occasional Reader

Unless you're John Kerry.

And can write up your own citations.

386 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:12:13pm

re: #378 Iron Fist

Was that when you converted to the worship of the Snake God?

:-)

I came for the hot writhing chicks, I stayed for the soup!

387 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:12:44pm

re: #384 Occasional Reader


Coo-coo koochoo.

388 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:13:10pm
389 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:13:14pm

re: #378 Iron Fist

Was that when you converted to the worship of the Snake God?

:-)

The great thing about converting to that cult, is that they let you keep your COBRA benefits.

390 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:13:19pm

re: #370 Killgore Trout

I want a pair of Tablas really bad.

So do I! She has quite a range, this Sheila Chandra -

Lament of McCrimmon/Song of the Banshee

391 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:13:21pm

re: #361 Ben Hur

Very nice!

I've only recently gotten into kettle balls.

Funny how those funny Russian exercises actually were superior.

I like kettlebells for conditioning because they take the technique component out of training to a large extent, but I think that people overrate the efficacy of KBs. BTW, kettlebells aren't even Russian. I cannot remember where they originally were used and I am too lazy to google it. To me, nothing beats a barbell and a lot of weight.

392 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:13:56pm

re: #369 hazzyday

The posse comitatus is terrifying; the soveriegn citizen movement that Roeder had some connections to is yet another spinoff of them.

You might like this book (I've been dying to read it):
In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest

It gets into all those groups; the author is a journalist based in seattle who has been covering this since the 90's--i think he's originally from South Dakota!

Dave Neiwert: His reportage for MSNBC.com on domestic terrorism won the National Press Club Award for Distinguished Online Journalism in 2000.
This is his blog: [Link: dneiwert.blogspot.com...]

Lot of info there about all these groups.

393 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:13:59pm

re: #380 avanti

There were always quota's. Maybe 100% of Electronics Tech's that passed would move up, maybe a tiny percentage of some other rates. Back when I was in, tech's got extra pay and bigger reenlistment bonuses.

That's the way I remember it from my husband's day in the late '80s. He was actually kind of a terrible sailor and struggled to make E-4 because of the fitness test. Now my son is worried he hasn't made E-5 and he's been in less than 2 years. He never showed that kind of initiative in high school, that's for sure.

394 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:14:50pm

re: #388 buzzsawmonkey

I am King of the Deltoid Blues Singers.

I didn't think buzz could follow up on a muscle/exercise pun so quickly, but he just hunts and pecs until he finds the right one.

395 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:14:51pm

re: #362 Occasional Reader

WHAT? No Thighmaster?!

How could I have forgotten to mention the thigh master?!

OF COURSE I have one of those!

396 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:14:54pm

re: #382 Jimmah

Well, no true Scotsman IS a fallacy - and 'no true conservative' is just the same fallacy with one word changed. I believe we've all been over this a few times have we not?

It isn't, though. If the defining feature of a classification is ideological rather than ethnicity based, it isn't a fallacy to exclude people from that label for failing to conform to that ideology. Once can call themselves something without being it, and doing so shouldn't cast aspersion on the people who are in fact as well as name.

The problem isn't the "No True Scotsman", it is that there isn't an objective definition of Conservative. But I support throwing out, even post-humously, people who act contrarily to the rule of law and respect for life as Mandy described.

397 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:14:56pm

re: #287 doppelganglander

I think you must have a different translation than the one I got in school.

Maybe you just weren't reading carefully enough.

398 3 wood  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:15:13pm

The market dropped again today:

U.S. Stocks Fall; S&P 500 Has Biggest Two-Day Drop Since April


June 16 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks fell, sending the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index to its biggest two-day tumble since April, as Best Buy Co. posted disappointing sales and commodity producers sank on concern the economic recovery is stalling.

Best Buy, the world’s biggest electronics retailer, plunged 7.3 percent after profit slumped 15 percent. Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold Inc. and Occidental Petroleum Corp. sank at least 4.1 percent to lead commodity shares lower as oil erased a 3 percent gain and copper declined. AT&T Inc. lost 1.7 percent after the largest U.S. phone company was downgraded at Barclays Plc. Treasuries rose for a fourth day and the dollar weakened.

The S&P 500, which surged 40 percent from a 12-year low in March through last week, retreated 1.3 percent to 911.97 at 4:03 p.m. New York time. The index slid 2.4 percent yesterday, the most since May 13. The Dow Jones Industrial Average sank 107.46 points, or 1.3 percent, to 8,504.67.

The assumption that the economy was turning, that we were going to see growth again, was a little premature,” said Clarence Woods Jr., chief equity trader with Baltimore-based MTB Investment Advisors, which manages $12 billion. “The rally was way too much, too fast.”


Investors are now taking a hard look at economic data and looking for real signs of growth. They are not finding much.

399 Bloodnok  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:15:44pm

re: #394 Occasional Reader

I didn't think buzz could follow up on a muscle/exercise pun so quickly, but he just hunts and pecs until he finds the right one.

He's the gluteus that holds us together.

400 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:15:45pm

re: #379 doppelganglander

Thank you. We're very proud of him.

A couple of the Dental Officers I serve with wanted to try and get the bonus pay for proficiency in foreign language--One in Chinese and one in Korean, but After some research I think they found out they couldn't and plus I understand the tests are rather tough.

401 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:15:50pm
402 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:16:10pm
403 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:16:13pm

re: #398 3 wood

Hope and change progresses further into dope and strange.

404 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:16:39pm

re: #397 Throbert McGee

Maybe you just weren't reading carefully enough.

Clearly. ;)

405 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:16:39pm

re: #390 Jimmah

Wow. Nice one. I also like that she's doing contemporary stuff with a classical style. The Pop stuff is kinda fun I really like the classical stuff.

406 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:16:48pm

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey

Maximus! Maximus! Maximus!

Bigus Dickus?

407 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:16:54pm

If a citizen has a good friend or a relative who happens to be an illegal immigrant, is it OK for that citizen to help his friend or relative to flout the law even if it means that other legal immigrants and citizens will suffer?

408 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:16:58pm

re: #380 avanti

There were always quota's. Maybe 100% of Electronics Tech's that passed would move up, maybe a tiny percentage of some other rates. Back when I was in, tech's got extra pay and bigger reenlistment bonuses.

Yeah, but because of tight money all reenlistment bonuses have been terminated for the rest of the year with very few exceptions.

409 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:17:00pm

OT...........on line fun!
FREE!

410 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:17:12pm

re: #401 Iron Fist

No true Scotsman may be a fallacy, but there are groups and organizations that require certain tenets or beliefs before you can consider a person truly one of them. These are as diverse as prison gangs (Iceweasel has something on AB on this thread) and religious orders, but the comonality is that there is a certan number of precepts that one has to believe or live up to to be considered truly one of them.

Kind of a hole in that fallacy. I wouldn't rely on it quite as thoroughly as some do. It can be simply the best summation of the facts.

Right. It has to do with the basis on which the label can legitimately be applied.

411 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:18:07pm

re: #392 iceweasel

The posse comitatus is terrifying; the soveriegn citizen movement that Roeder had some connections to is yet another spinoff of them.

You might like this book (I've been dying to read it):
In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest

It gets into all those groups; the author is a journalist based in seattle who has been covering this since the 90's--i think he's originally from South Dakota!

Dave Neiwert: His reportage for MSNBC.com on domestic terrorism won the National Press Club Award for Distinguished Online Journalism in 2000.
This is his blog: [Link: dneiwert.blogspot.com...]

Lot of info there about all these groups.

And you can read all about radical environmentalism in these tomes...

Best, Steven and Nocella, Anthony J. Igniting A Revolution: Voices in Defense of the Earth, AK Press, 2006. ISBN 1-904859-56-9

Wall, Dereck. Earth First! and the Anti-Roads Movement: Radical Environmentalism, Routledge, 1999. ISBN 0415190649

List, Peter. Radical Environmentalism: Philosophy and Tactics, Wadsworth Pub. Co., 1993. ISBN 0534177905

Davis, John. The Earth First! Reader: Ten Years of Radical Environmentalism, Gibbs Smith, 1991. ISBN 0879053879

de Steiguer, J.E. 2006. The Origins of Modern Environmental Thought. The University of Arizona Press. Tucson. 246 pp.

Taylor, Bron, ed. Ecological Resistance Movements: The Global Emergence of Radical and Popular Environmentalism. Albany, New York: State University of New York Press, 1995.

Taylor, Bron, "Radical Environmentalism" and "Earth First! and the Earth Liberation Front" in B. Taylor, ed., Encyclopedia of Religion and Nature London: Continuum International.

The point being, there is a LOT of nuts, on both sides all over the place.

412 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:18:23pm

re: #400 Nevergiveup

A couple of the Dental Officers I serve with wanted to try and get the bonus pay for proficiency in foreign language--One in Chinese and one in Korean, but After some research I think they found out they couldn't and plus I understand the tests are rather tough.

Very tough. If they are native speakers, they could probably pass, but I understand there's a lot of military vocabulary (naturally) that even a native speaker might not know.

413 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:18:23pm

Charles, according to this news report, Bush was the shooter in the first multiple murder. Simply disgusting...

414 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:18:36pm

re: #399 Bloodnok

He's the gluteus that holds us together.

Bah. Buzzsaw's exercise puns don't mean squat.

415 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:18:53pm

re: #385 Son of the Black Dog

And can write up your own citations.

I'm my units Award Officer, what do you want?
/I am the awards officer

416 opnion  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:19:17pm

I have been out of the loop on this. Is it conclusive that this guy is a veteran & was a Gunnery sergeant?

417 Bloodnok  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:19:18pm

re: #414 Occasional Reader

Bah. Buzzsaw's exercise puns don't mean squat.

He must belong to the ACLU

418 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:19:29pm
419 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:19:40pm

re: #397 Throbert McGee

Maybe you just weren't reading carefully enough.

She must have skipped over the chapter "Gilgamesh and Einkidu Visit Provincetown".

420 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:20:07pm

Almost zero chance that this guy has all those decorations. It's just over-the-top.

We are honored to have Gunny aboard. He served 6 tours over seas, where he has several medals. He received a Purple heart, Silver and Bronze star, Combat Infantry Badge and a Presidential citation for his actions in the Special Forces. Oh, and did we mention, he made ace during Desert Storm, he has 547 confirmed kills as a sniper, and he stopped an avalanche on Mount Doom single-handed, thereby saving a Maiden In Distress.

421 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:20:11pm

re: #414 Occasional Reader

Bah. Buzzsaw's exercise puns don't mean squat.

You're just tring to push up your own credibility.

422 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:20:32pm

re: #414 Occasional Reader

Bah. Buzzsaw's exercise puns don't mean squat.

They give me a lift.

423 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:20:45pm

re: #417 Bloodnok

He must belong to the ACLU

Wouldn't that hamstring his ability to post here?

424 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:21:05pm

re: #412 doppelganglander

Very tough. If they are native speakers, they could probably pass, but I understand there's a lot of military vocabulary (naturally) that even a native speaker might not know.

I think the one who speaks Chinese pasted with a very high score, but it turned out being a Dental Officer she wasn't in line for it. Since my chicken Hebrew would never qualify, I just listened and don't remember all the details. But that is great you son is fluent.

425 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:21:52pm

re: #411 Walter L. Newton

And you can read all about radical environmentalism in these tomes...

The fact that there are eco-terrorists doesn't mitigate or abrogate the threats posed by right wing domestic terrorism.

This isn't some kind of game where we've got a chalkboard marked "left wing sins" and "right wing sins". This is very serious business about domestic terrorists in our nation. I'd like to think that for once we could put aside the partisan bickering.

I'll start worrying about the ecoterrorists and animal rights terrorists when they're on the upswing and murdering people again. Right now it's the right wing extremists.

426 BignJames  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:21:55pm

re: #398 3 wood


My company asked employees to take 20 hrs. unpaid leave each month during Mar. Apr. May. Yesterday everyone got a bonus equalling 66% of the unpaid leave. Things may be slowly turning.

427 Bloodnok  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:21:55pm

re: #423 Occasional Reader

Wouldn't that hamstring his ability to post here?

But it is that much sweeter when he returns and we can kill the fatted calf.

428 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:22:23pm

Out of curiosity... does anyone remember the old Yahoo message boards that were linked to the news stories?

I was wondering if any former participants on the "hate" board (the one dealing with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict) participate here.

429 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:22:25pm

re: #416 opnion

I have been out of the loop on this. Is it conclusive that this guy is a veteran & was a Gunnery sergeant?

NO

430 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:22:33pm

re: #412 doppelganglander

Very tough. If they are native speakers, they could probably pass, but I understand there's a lot of military vocabulary (naturally) that even a native speaker might not know.

the tests are bone-crushing. i still have headaches.

431 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:22:57pm

re: #364 Ben Hur

Wow.

Even starting to sound like him!

ahhhh..mazin'

432 Buck  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:23:01pm

re: #108 vermicious_knid

This is rapidly becoming my favorite left wing site on the web. I know I can always log on daily and see headline after headline demonizing conservatives.

Keep it up, Charles. Good work !

2 comments in a year and a half. Seriously dude... you talk too much.

433 3 wood  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:23:03pm

Obama on unemployment:

Obama Says U.S. Jobless Rate to Reach 10% This Year


June 16 (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama said the U.S. unemployment rate will reach 10 percent this year, even as the economy begins to emerge from the recession.

“You’re starting to see the engines of the economy turn,” Obama said today in an interview with Bloomberg Television at the White House. “It’s going to take a long time -- we had a huge de-leveraging that took place.”

Obama acknowledged that unemployment lines may keep growing despite government efforts to boost economic growth, saying he’s confident an expansion will begin “shortly.” His outlook mirrors the forecasts of private economists who predict a jobless rate of 10 percent -- a level unseen since 1983 -- by the final three months of the year.

This would be the same Obama who assumed a 4% GDP growth rate in his budget, and thought that his stimulus plan would keep unemployment at 8%.

434 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:23:08pm

re: #421 nikis-knight

You're just tring to push up your own credibility.

Don't jump to conclusions jack.

435 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:23:15pm

re: #390 Jimmah

Sheila Chandra - Lament of McCrimmon/Song of the Banshee

THANKS for that one!

436 avanti  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:23:47pm

re: #393 doppelganglander

That's the way I remember it from my husband's day in the late '80s. He was actually kind of a terrible sailor and struggled to make E-4 because of the fitness test. Now my son is worried he hasn't made E-5 and he's been in less than 2 years. He never showed that kind of initiative in high school, that's for sure.

When I was in, Electronic Tech's were a critical rate and we did not even have to wait as long between rates. It was a E-6 in my mid 20's and we had other rates that were lucky to reach that by retirement. It was embarrassing to be senior to a 40 year old E-5 Boatswains Mate for example.
My wife got a kick out of it though. When someone would come to the house looking for the "Chief", they'd ask "Is your dad home ?"

437 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:23:54pm

re: #430 coldwarrior

the tests are bone-crushing. i still have headaches.

Your also fluent in another language?

438 Bloodnok  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:24:09pm

re: #434 JCM

Don't jump to conclusions jack.

Keep it clean, jerk.
/

439 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:24:16pm

re: #434 JCM

Don't jump to conclusions jack.

I was just trying to make everyone sit up and take notice. But it was probably a stretch.

440 3 wood  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:24:41pm

re: #426 BignJames

My company asked employees to take 20 hrs. unpaid leave each month during Mar. Apr. May. Yesterday everyone got a bonus equalling 66% of the unpaid leave. Things may be slowly turning.

I hope so, but I'll believe it when I see it.

441 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:25:00pm

re: #433 3 wood

Obama on unemployment:

Obama Says U.S. Jobless Rate to Reach 10% This Year


This would be the same Obama who assumed a 4% GDP growth rate in his budget, and thought that his stimulus plan would keep unemployment at 8%.


"Math is hard!"


-Barbie Obama doll

442 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:25:17pm

re: #418 buzzsawmonkey

The copy of "Gilgamesh" I had as a kid had the hot lovin' sequences between Gilgamesh and Enkidu translated into Latin instead of English. The translators had too much integrity to leave them out entirely, but apparently believed that it was necessary to put up a linguistic firewall to ensure tender minds would not be exposed to improper material.

That is too funny. You and Throbert have inspired me to get out my copy. So far, I've found some rather suggestive wrestling towards the end of Part 1 (page 17 in the Norton Anthology of World Masterpieces, for those playing along at home). They "embraced and their friendship was sealed," but that could mean a lot of things.

443 NelsFree  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:25:25pm

re: #77 psyop

I would be extremely skeptical of his supposed military experience.

"Gunny" is an affectionate term for a Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant.

What is the likelyhood of a 34 year-old making Gunnery Sergeant?
/Navy asking

444 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:25:34pm

re: #438 Bloodnok

Keep it clean, jerk.
/

Hey, jcm will do just fine when it's crunch time.

445 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:25:41pm

re: #396 nikis-knight

It isn't, though. If the defining feature of a classification is ideological rather than ethnicity based, it isn't a fallacy to exclude people from that label for failing to conform to that ideology. Once can call themselves something without being it, and doing so shouldn't cast aspersion on the people who are in fact as well as name.

The problem isn't the "No True Scotsman", it is that there isn't an objective definition of Conservative. But I support throwing out, even post-humously, people who act contrarily to the rule of law and respect for life as Mandy described.

And does the same thing apply to liberals, or is it just conservatives who are by definition good, law abiding people?

446 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:25:52pm

re: #432 Buck

2 comments in a year and a half. Seriously dude... you talk too much.

A guy joins a monastery and takes a vow of silence: he’s allowed to say two words every seven years. After the first seven years, the elders bring him in and ask for his two words. "Cold floors," he says. They nod and send him away. Seven more years pass. They bring him back in and ask for his two words. He clears his throats and says, "Bad food." They nod and send him away. Seven more years pass. They bring him in for his two words. "I quit," he says. "That’s not surprising," the elders say. "You’ve done nothing but complain since you got here."

447 opnion  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:26:06pm

re: #429 Nevergiveup

NO

I have very strong reservations, but who knows, maybe he iis a vet.
I would sumit that a head count of former high scghool glee club members would probably produce a larger per capita participation than vets in extremist groups.

448 beens21  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:26:16pm

way ot, have XP and no matter what browser I use, latest Firefox,IE, or Opera, it takes 30 seconds to connect to LGF and any links I hit gets the spinning wheel. Also, if I read a comment in the spinoffs, I get logged off.Just started the last few days.Any clue?

449 avanti  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:26:17pm

re: #408 Nevergiveup

Yeah, but because of tight money all reenlistment bonuses have been terminated for the rest of the year with very few exceptions.

Back in 1966, I got 10K tax free, (war zone) big money back then.

450 BignJames  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:26:22pm

re: #440 3 wood

I hope so, but I'll believe it when I see it.


We manufacture truck tires.

451 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:26:35pm

re: #430 coldwarrior

the tests are bone-crushing. i still have headaches.

What language?

452 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:26:36pm
453 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:26:57pm

re: #396 nikis-knight

It isn't, though. If the defining feature of a classification is ideological rather than ethnicity based, it isn't a fallacy to exclude people from that label for failing to conform to that ideology.

That's not what makes "No true Scotsman" the name of a fallacy.

It's a fallacy not because it permits groups to define themselves, but because it points to individuals or groups moving the goalposts for what counts as membership ex post facto, simply to deny someone membership in the group after they've become an embarassment/acted in a way that discredits the group.

454 Kragar  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:27:19pm

re: #443 NelsFree

What is the likelyhood of a 34 year-old making Gunnery Sergeant?
/Navy asking

Not bad all that unlikely depending on his MOS. If you joined at 18, you would be at 16 years of service by 34. I was looking at Staff Sergeant at 8 years.

455 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:27:20pm

re: #448 beens21

way ot, have XP and no matter what browser I use, latest Firefox,IE, or Opera, it takes 30 seconds to connect to LGF and any links I hit gets the spinning wheel. Also, if I read a comment in the spinoffs, I get logged off.Just started the last few days.Any clue?


I have had the same problem all afternoon.
Both firefox and explorer.

456 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:27:21pm

re: #445 Jimmah

And does the same thing apply to liberals, or is it just conservatives who are by definition good, law abiding people?

I'd respond to what you said, but I'll wait for you to respond to what I actually said.

457 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:27:41pm

re: #425 iceweasel

The fact that there are eco-terrorists doesn't mitigate or abrogate the threats posed by right wing domestic terrorism.

This isn't some kind of game where we've got a chalkboard marked "left wing sins" and "right wing sins". This is very serious business about domestic terrorists in our nation. I'd like to think that for once we could put aside the partisan bickering.

I'll start worrying about the ecoterrorists and animal rights terrorists when they're on the upswing and murdering people again. Right now it's the right wing extremists.

Well, I live in Colorado, and I'll worry about all of them, since we have a real good infestation of left and right groups here.

You would be very surprised (or maybe not) if you just go 30 miles up into the mountains, you will find a whole different mindset. RIght wing "leave me alone" and left wing "leave me alone."

The mountains are full of them here. I stay VERY non-partisan, and keep my eyes and ears open for the whole pack of these nuts.

You can cover the right wing nuts.

458 NelsFree  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:27:44pm

re: #407 Spare O'Lake

If a citizen has a good friend or a relative who happens to be an illegal immigrant, is it OK for that citizen to help his friend or relative to flout the law even if it means that other legal immigrants and citizens will suffer?

"Accessory to a crime"

459 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:27:49pm

I suppose I should stop typing exercise puns, and go do some real... you know... exercise.

Later.

460 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:27:53pm

re: #449 avanti

Back in 1966, I got 10K tax free, (war zone) big money back then.

That's pretty good for back then. I got a bonus for signing up- but it wasn't tax free. It was a tad larger than those.

461 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:28:45pm

re: #415 Nevergiveup

I'm my units Award Officer, what do you want?
/I am the awards officer

re: #437 Nevergiveup

according to the military, no. according to me on the street, yes.

after i got out, i was required to take a foreign language at college, this was a waste of my time and money, i was told i had a regional accent...easy A, padded my gpa and helped me get into grad school, so no loss i guess.

462 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:28:56pm

re: #448 beens21

way ot, have XP and no matter what browser I use, latest Firefox,IE, or Opera, it takes 30 seconds to connect to LGF and any links I hit gets the spinning wheel. Also, if I read a comment in the spinoffs, I get logged off.Just started the last few days.Any clue?

Yes, did you take the updates this week from Microsoft?

463 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:29:05pm

re: #444 Occasional Reader

Hey, jcm will do just fine when it's crunch time.

It's just I find exercise puns to be a real grinder.

464 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:29:14pm

So much for thinking these people were just motivated by drugs.

465 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:29:29pm
466 spudly  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:29:35pm

While I think Charles is right that complaining about the "right wing" moniker for these idiots is pointless (since the language is so rooted at this point, even if wrong, IMO), it does bother me a little. The whole "left vs right" linear paradigm for establishing a political geography is seriously lacking.

Something akin to that "political compass" notion of an X,Y rating with one axis economic freedom, and the other personal might be better, perhaps even a Z axis. A more rational system like this would place loons on either side well away from the extremes of the 2 major parties in the US.

If a handful of issues have overlap with right, calling them "right" makes as much sense as the same in the other direction. One could probably find a few places to overlap AQ with the "right" views (ID, etc), but also with "left" views (say anything Carter says lately as an obvious example).

I'd rather see them labeled more simply as "extreme racists" or something like that. Won't happen, though :)

467 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:29:35pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Wow. Nice one. I also like that she's doing contemporary stuff with a classical style. The Pop stuff is kinda fun I really like the classical stuff.

Yeah she seems to have taken to the Scottish folk style really well.

Here she is with 'Monsoon' which you have probably heard before:

468 Dianna  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:30:15pm

re: #418 buzzsawmonkey

The copy of "Gilgamesh" I had as a kid had the hot lovin' sequences between Gilgamesh and Enkidu translated into Latin instead of English. The translators had too much integrity to leave them out entirely, but apparently believed that it was necessary to put up a linguistic firewall to ensure tender minds would not be exposed to improper material.

Schoolmaster, do not English this!

469 NelsFree  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:30:33pm

re: #393 doppelganglander

. Now my son is worried he hasn't made E-5 and he's been in less than 2 years.


I don't think there IS a paygrade for E-5 < 2yrs.
/Any active duty types out there?
470 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:30:41pm
471 beens21  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:30:42pm

re: #462 Walter L. Newton

yes, but it only happens here. I have dsl and the rest of the internet is fine

472 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:30:43pm

re: #462 Walter L. Newton

Yes, did you take the updates this week from Microsoft?

I had to roll back my XP machine to before the updates.

473 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:30:44pm
474 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:30:45pm

re: #465 buzzsawmonkey

Reach 10% unemployment? Yes, we can!

That's change we can believe in.

475 lobo91  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:30:52pm

re: #449 avanti

Back in 1966, I got 10K tax free, (war zone) big money back then.

One of my classmates at the Sergeants Major Academy last year got a $150k lump sum, tax-free reenlistment bonus (18Z E-9, reenlisted while in Iraq).

476 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:31:07pm

re: #455 DEZes

I have had the same problem all afternoon.
Both firefox and explorer.

xp pro and firefox...no probs

477 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:31:55pm

re: #433 3 wood

Obama on unemployment:

Obama Says U.S. Jobless Rate to Reach 10% This Year

This would be the same Obama who assumed a 4% GDP growth rate in his budget, and thought that his stimulus plan would keep unemployment at 8%.

Getting harder and harder to just pull figures out of one's butt and getting the masses to accept them as Gospel.

478 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:32:35pm

re: #469 NelsFree

WOW! thats FAST!

479 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:32:44pm

re: #471 beens21

yes, but it only happens here. I have dsl and the rest of the internet is fine

Then clear your cache in all your browsers. I don't know, but Charles has made some software changes to LGF this week, and maybe some of the Java (or whatever he programs in) code snippets you have on your machine need to be updated, which would happen if you clear your cache.

480 dingleB  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:32:55pm

re: #443 NelsFree

re: #454 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)


Ditto, I joined when I was 17 at 34 I was a MSgt., but then again that was only after I parted the Red Sea instead of walking on Top of it.

481 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:33:06pm

re: #476 coldwarrior

xp pro and firefox...no probs

Its most likely a lazy server on the east coast.

482 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:33:07pm

re: #469 NelsFree

There is on for E-5 less than 2 years --1994

483 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:33:23pm

re: #453 iceweasel

That's not what makes "No true Scotsman" the name of a fallacy.

It's a fallacy not because it permits groups to define themselves, but because it points to individuals or groups moving the goalposts for what counts as membership ex post facto, simply to deny someone membership in the group after they've become an embarassment/acted in a way that discredits the group.


But before they act, you cannot really know what kind of person they are. I believe actions speak louder than words. One can be considered a member of X by their words, and then do counter-X, and that invalidates what they claimed to believe, making them a hypocite, or inconsistent at best, and thus a poor exemplar of group X, not a true, or at least not completely X. Liberal, conservative, christian, athiest, whatever.

People here mis-apply this fallacy in a haste to show that they are so centrist that they can condemn any side. When conservatives repudiate a crazy, they are said to engage in this; when they fail to say "He's not one of us" they are said to accommodate crazies.

484 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:33:27pm

re: #469 NelsFree

I thought it was weird, too. He made E-3 while he was at DLI, and E-4 when he graduated. (Well, he was frocked in November and started getting the pay in February.) I couldn't believe he was even allowed to take the test with so little time in.

485 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:33:32pm

re: #451 doppelganglander

german

486 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:34:13pm

Speaking of killers...WICHITA, Kan. (AP) — A judge took possible threats made by the man accused of killing abortion provider George Tiller seriously enough that he raised his bond to $20 million from $5 million, according to a transcript released Tuesday. [Link: www.google.com...]

487 beens21  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:35:06pm

re: #479 Walter L. Newton

thanks, will try that.

488 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:35:07pm

re: #477 FurryOldGuyJeans

Getting harder and harder to just pull figures out of one's butt and getting the masses to accept them as Gospel.

Hell I was trying to figure out why President Obama just didn't come out and claim he saved all jobs. The media would try to sell it for him.

489 Macker  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:35:10pm

re: #465 buzzsawmonkey

¡Si, se puede!

490 lobo91  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:35:17pm

re: #469 NelsFree

I don't think there IS a paygrade for E-5 < 2yrs.
/Any active duty types out there?

Yes, there is. It's possible to enlist as an E-1 and make E-5 in less than 2 years (although not common).

The other reason for an E-5

491 opnion  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:35:17pm

re: #271 Fenway_Nation

What makes you think I didn't?

Also, what makes everybody think that nobody but foaming-at-the-mouth John Birchers and neo-nazis are the only ones who have a problem with it?

Are the American Leigon and Veterans of Foreign Wars right-wing hate groups now, too?

Only if they have ever been to or seen a Tea Party on TV.

492 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:35:24pm

re: #477 FurryOldGuyJeans

Getting harder and harder to just pull figures out of one's butt and getting the masses to accept them as Gospel.

Your reservation for FEMA Camp has just been confirmed the cattl, ah, er, bus leaves in 20 minutes!

/;-P

493 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:36:42pm

I'm amazed that some people still feel the need to kid themselves that 'no true conservative' is not a fallacy, when we are talking about criminal acts.

Yes, conservatives can do bad things. Liberals can do bad things. That's it.

494 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:36:59pm
495 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:37:14pm

re: #490 lobo91

Yes, there is. It's possible to enlist as an E-1 and make E-5 in less than 2 years (although not common).

The other reason for an E-5

I feel like you meant to say more there.

Anyway, in the unlikely event my son makes E-5 before September 4th, I will buy you all a round of virtual drinks.

496 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:38:12pm

re: #488 screaming_eagle

Hell I was trying to figure out why President Obama just didn't come out and claim he saved all jobs. The media would try to sell it for him.

well he did try to say his policies were working when we lost only 350,000 jobs last month as opposed to the usual 600,000...

497 lobo91  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:38:37pm

re: #490 lobo91

Odd...not sure how that got cut off like that...

What I was saying is that the other reason for an E-5 < 2 column on the pay scale is that OCS and WOCS candidates are paid as E-5s.

498 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:38:54pm

re: #495 doppelganglander

I feel like you meant to say more there.

Anyway, in the unlikely event my son makes E-5 before September 4th, I will buy you all a round of virtual drinks.

virtual drinks? I'm gonna try that next time I'm out, and it's my turn.
:)

499 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:38:58pm

re: #477 FurryOldGuyJeans

Getting harder and harder to just pull figures out of one's butt and getting the masses to accept them as Gospel.

Why do you say harder? It seems to me that they are pulling figures out of their butt about once a week, and no one is questioning the figures, at least no one in the mass media.

I read the article, and no where in the article is any comments about the validity of the figures and projections. It's just seems to be accepted.

It's appears that the butt trick works fine.

500 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:39:07pm

re: #485 coldwarrior

german

Need some help with German?
I am. ;-)

501 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:40:13pm

re: #498 unrealizedviewpoint

virtual drinks? I'm gonna try that next time I'm out, and it's my turn.
:)

I would buy you real drinks, but it's really hard to send them over a wireless connection. Or, you could all just come to Atlanta and I'll buy you the real thing.

502 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:40:35pm

re: #490 lobo91

Yes, there is. It's possible to enlist as an E-1 and make E-5 in less than 2 years (although not common).

The other reason for an E-5

A couple ways to make E-3 even before basic training when I was in were:
1) College credits.
2) Enlist your buddies.

503 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:40:47pm

re: #500 callahan23

Need some help with German?
I am. ;-)

Iknow a word in German.
Bra = keepsemfromfloppin.
;)

504 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:40:49pm

re: #494 buzzsawmonkey

Up a lazy server where the page won't load
The spinning ball of death around and round it goed
Linger in the glow of your computer screen
Throw away your troubles, dream a dream with me

we prefer haiku 'round here :)

i try to enter

l g f is will not load now

i am reticent and sad

505 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:41:12pm

re: #483 nikis-knight


People here mis-apply this fallacy in a haste to show that they are so centrist that they can condemn any side. When conservatives repudiate a crazy, they are said to engage in this; when they fail to say "He's not one of us" they are said to accommodate crazies.

No quibble with your first paragraph but its orthogonal to the point.

Not sure how most people here are misapplying the fallacy (I haven't read enough here) but I know it gets misapplied and misunderstood all over the place, not merely here.

Repudiating a crazy isn't an instance of the fallacy, but deciding to call George Bush a liberal -after his policies and his popularity were in the toilet--is an example of it. I'm sure no one here did that, but I have to say it was common in a lot of places on the far right.

Another way to sum this up is in the saying "Conservatism can never fail; it can only be failed" -- that is, some people do not believe that conservative policies or people ever fail, instead saying that the failure of those policies or those people is only proof that they were insufficiently conservative: not conservative enough.

506 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:41:31pm
507 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:41:33pm

re: #503 DEZes

Iknow a word in German.
Bra = keepsemfromfloppin.
;)

No it's Büstenhalter (really)

508 lobo91  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:41:54pm

re: #499 Walter L. Newton

Why do you say harder? It seems to me that they are pulling figures out of their butt about once a week, and no one is questioning the figures, at least no one in the mass media.

I read the article, and no where in the article is any comments about the validity of the figures and projections. It's just seems to be accepted.

It's appears that the butt trick works fine.

There are plenty of ways they massage the numbers, anyway.

For example, I don't count as being unemployed in their figures, but I am.

509 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:42:30pm
510 lobo91  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:42:35pm

re: #502 screaming_eagle

A couple ways to make E-3 even before basic training when I was in were:
1) College credits.
2) Enlist your buddies.

Still can do that.

511 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:42:40pm

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

No it's Büstenhalter (really)

Cool, that explians the halter top.

512 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:42:40pm

re: #425 iceweasel


This isn't some kind of game where we've got a chalkboard marked "left wing sins" and "right wing sins". This is very serious business about domestic terrorists in our nation. I'd like to think that for once we could put aside the partisan bickering.

Well said. Even the most whacko, radical extreme environmentalists as a rule destroy property, not people. Which doesn't make them saints, of course, but they're operating on qualitatively different principles. And I don't know of any left-wing group since the 60s whose aim is to overthrow the government, but nowadays there are militias aplenty (see Web) who openly embrace that goal. Apples, oranges. Distracting. Not productive.

513 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:43:00pm

re: #495 doppelganglander

There is an big article in the June Navy times about E-4 thru E-6 making rate. It's entitled "you passed the test but didn't advance: Here are 7 ways you can make E-4 E-5 E-6." Look it up.

514 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:43:20pm

re: #502 screaming_eagle

re: #502 screaming_eagle

A couple ways to make E-3 even before basic training when I was in were:
1) College credits.
2) Enlist your buddies.

which 501st were you in

515 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:43:26pm

re: #508 lobo91

There are plenty of ways they massage the numbers, anyway.

For example, I don't count as being unemployed in their figures, but I am.

I'm not saying that they AREN'T playing with the numbers, I saying that no one in the media, or other politicians, or anyone really, no one is questioning all this shit.

It really seems like the fiscal conservatives are missing in action.

516 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:43:36pm

re: #511 DEZes

Cool, that explians the halter top.

actually yes.

517 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:44:09pm

re: #516 brookly red

actually yes.

I always liked those tops. ;)

518 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:44:10pm

re: #473 Iron Fist

It is rare that you find someone who defines themselves as "Liberal" who respects sand adheres to the Second Amendment in our Bill of Rights. They may not quite be diameterically opposed, but effectively they are almost mutually exclusive.

I don't think that's true. I'm a lib and I and lots of libs I know have no interest in taking away anyone's guns; some of us even own them ourselves.

519 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:44:13pm

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

No it's Büstenhalter (really)

LOL, you knowitall /.
Or abbreviated BH (Büstenhalter).
But DEZes' version is way funnier. I spilled my drink.

520 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:44:27pm

re: #500 callahan23

Need some help with German?
I am. ;-)

i t does me no good now :)

i lived there for almost 4 years and could read the papers and watch tv, if i didn't look so american, i could have passed for a local.

521 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:44:27pm

re: #469 NelsFree

I think for ROTC Cadets they get E-5 pay for drill time with National Guard or Reserves so if they get activated they would receive E-5 pay with

522 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:44:37pm
523 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:44:45pm

re: #513 Nevergiveup

There is an big article in the June Navy times about E-4 thru E-6 making rate. It's entitled "you passed the test but didn't advance: Here are 7 ways you can make E-4 E-5 E-6." Look it up.

Outstanding. Thank you so much.

524 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:45:08pm

re: #493 Jimmah

I'm amazed that some people still feel the need to kid themselves that 'no true conservative' is not a fallacy, when we are talking about criminal acts.

Yes, conservatives can do bad things. Liberals can do bad things. That's it.

It can be a fallacy. Being conservative or liberal doesn't make one a good person, or even law-abiding. It can also be a mis-applied fallacy, as it becomes difficult to believe that a person is really--truely--what they say they are when they act in the opposite. It makes them a hypocrite at least, and isn't a hypocrite not a true whatever? By definition?

I'm not arguing that this man in the article isn't "right wing" but rather I am supporting Mandy's assertion that rule of law and respect for life are [American] conservative values high on the list--and that saying so isn't somehow wandering into this fallacy.

525 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:45:21pm

re: #503 DEZes

Iknow a word in German.
Bra = keepsemfromfloppin.
;)

pure comic gold!

526 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:45:33pm

re: #517 DEZes

I always liked those tops. ;)

TMI, no links please...

527 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:45:51pm

re: #514 coldwarrior

re: #502 screaming_eagle


which 501st were you in

Started out in 1st. Ended up in 2nd.

528 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:45:55pm

re: #518 iceweasel

I don't think that's true. I'm a lib and I and lots of libs I know have no interest in taking away anyone's guns; some of us even own them ourselves.


How many liberal lawmakers fall into that category?

529 Enkidu90046  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:46:11pm

re: #502 screaming_eagle

A couple ways to make E-3 even before basic training when I was in were:
1) College credits.
2) Enlist your buddies.

I was a college graduate when I joined the USMC and enlisted with a buddy. I started out an E-2 and even if I had been company guide (I was one of the 4 squad leaders) they would not have promoted me to E-3. I got E-3 a few months later when I graduated from artillery school as company honor man. Things may have changed (this was 1994) and other branches of service may be different), but in the USMC (at that time at least), the most you could enlist as would be an E-2.

530 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:46:26pm

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

No it's Büstenhalter (really)

sitzplatz is my all time favorite

531 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:46:34pm

re: #501 doppelganglander

I would buy you real drinks, but it's really hard to send them over a wireless connection. Or, you could all just come to Atlanta and I'll buy you the real thing.

We should request of Charles that he forgo all further upgrades or enhancements to the LGF Weblog until he solves this pressing problem, ie: the inability to share cocktails with one another in real time.

532 lobo91  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:46:34pm

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

I'm not saying that they AREN'T playing with the numbers, I saying that no one in the media, or other politicians, or anyone really, no one is questioning all this shit.

It really seems like the fiscal conservatives are missing in action.

I think part of that (with regard to politicians, anyway) is caused by not wanting to be labelled as "betting on Obama to fail" or whatever they're callingit this week.

As it gets closer to the mid-term elections, I imagine that will change.

As for the media not calling him on it, you know the reason for that...

533 Clubsec  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:47:06pm

Me thinks the Gunny's military medals are figments of his imagination.
And Sheriff Dupnik has a very low regard for madam Forde.
BTW this took place in Pima County, AZ and very close to Santa Cruz County, AZ.
Yet another argument to keep Gitmo open.

534 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:47:09pm

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

I'm not saying that they AREN'T playing with the numbers, I saying that no one in the media, or other politicians, or anyone really, no one is questioning all this shit.

It really seems like the fiscal conservatives are missing in action.

I thought fiscal conservatives were banned from Washington D.C.

535 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:47:52pm

re: #534 screaming_eagle

I thought fiscal conservatives were banned from Washington D.C.


They have been for some time now.

536 freetoken  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:48:00pm

re: #493 Jimmah

I'm amazed that some people still feel the need to kid themselves that 'no true conservative' is not a fallacy, when we are talking about criminal acts.

The phenomenon is not limited to discussions about criminal acts.

537 opnion  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:48:09pm

re: #528 soxfan4life

How many liberal lawmakers fall into that category?

And how many librals as opposed to the general population want the "Torture" photos released? There is some commonality among lebeerals & the same applys to Conservatives.

538 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:48:24pm

re: #530 coldwarrior

sitzplatz is my all time favorite

It is the place where you sit, certainly. German is very exacting, regimented, militaristic, you speak it like you are marching with your mouth.

539 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:48:30pm

re: #526 brookly red

TMI, no links please...

Not on me. ;)

540 lobo91  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:48:31pm

re: #529 Enkidu90046

I was a college graduate when I joined the USMC and enlisted with a buddy. I started out an E-2 and even if I had been company guide (I was one of the 4 squad leaders) they would not have promoted me to E-3. I got E-3 a few months later when I graduated from artillery school as company honor man. Things may have changed (this was 1994) and other branches of service may be different), but in the USMC (at that time at least), the most you could enlist as would be an E-2.

In the Army, if you have 2 years or more of college, you'll enlist as an E-3.

541 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:48:34pm
542 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:48:43pm

re: #527 screaming_eagle

501st 4/5/6 were the infantry in berlin.

solid dudes. u at ft campbell?

543 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:48:47pm

re: #520 coldwarrior

i t does me no good now :)

i lived there for almost 4 years and could read the papers and watch tv, if i didn't look so american, i could have passed for a local.

What makes one look American?
Today a student (arab) told me he was convinced that I looked totally Jewish.
Born and raised protestant developed atheist is what reality is. I am a strong supporter of Israel though.
There you go with outwardly appearances.

544 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:49:15pm

re: #534 screaming_eagle

I thought fiscal conservatives were banned from Washington D.C.

/no, your thinking lobbyists

545 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:50:01pm

re: #531 unrealizedviewpoint

We should request of Charles that he forgo all further upgrades or enhancements to the LGF Weblog until he solves this pressing problem, ie: the inability to share cocktails with one another in real time.

And chocolate! Don't forget the chocolate!

546 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:50:15pm

re: #529 Enkidu90046


But even starting out as an E-2 changes things. And that was my point about starting out as an E-3. From there it is a matter of timing, schools,and points.

547 soxfan4life  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:50:41pm

re: #544 brookly red

/no, your thinking lobbyiststaxpayers


FTFY

548 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:50:57pm

re: #541 Iron Fist

There may be individual exceptions, but if you support the Second Amnedment, you might want to take a look at what else your theoretical side supports. And see if you really believe it.

The 2nd is critical to me. It is one place where one defines the difference and relationship between the citizen and the government.

The subject and the Crown, for the Brits.

Actually there is a lot of support for gun rights along the upper tier states in the west and mid west, and I mean support from Democrats and democratic leaders.

You just don't hear about it as much. A lot of this has to do with the culture in those areas, farmers, cattleman, hunters, fishers and such.

It's a more varied subject than just the black and white of gun control we see coming out of DC. and the East and Left coast.

549 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:51:15pm

re: #543 callahan23

What makes one look American?
Today a student (arab) told me he was convinced that I looked totally Jewish.
Born and raised protestant developed atheist is what reality is. I am a strong supporter of Israel though.
There you go with outwardly appearances.

Your student is a dipshit.

550 3 wood  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:51:15pm

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

I'm not saying that they AREN'T playing with the numbers, I saying that no one in the media, or other politicians, or anyone really, no one is questioning all this shit.

It really seems like the fiscal conservatives are missing in action.

There is a subtle but effective game being played by the left. If you dare question The Messiah, you are accused of rooting for the country to fail.

551 Scion9  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:51:17pm

re: #483 nikis-knight

I don't believe the majority of the time that the fallacy is cited on LGF it is being applied properly. An equivocation of terms isn't the same specific fallacy as No True Scotsman depending on the specific equivocation in question. Moving the goalpost ex post facto also isn't always an example of the fallacy either, depending on the specific circumstances.

In the case of the usage in this thread though, stating that these people aren't conservative because they are killers or criminals is a fallacy because there isn't an across the board, universal conservative philosophy of either pacifism or adherence to the letter of the law.

I could probably write a lot on the subject, but in brief I think a large part of the very broadly popular conservative 'Law and Order' mindset is a deep seated need for closure in seeing justice applied. The law not being upheld by those that have the actual authority to do so creates a lot of cognitive dissonance for those that have this mindset. It's likely these individuals (among other probable psychological issues) became radicalized because of this ongoing cognitive dissonance. They needed closure in seeing justice upheld, and since it wasn't happening they decided to engage in vigilantism to seek out what they desired.

552 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:51:21pm

re: #512 ShanghaiEd

Well said. Even the most whacko, radical extreme environmentalists as a rule destroy property, not people. Which doesn't make them saints, of course, but they're operating on qualitatively different principles. And I don't know of any left-wing group since the 60s whose aim is to overthrow the government, but nowadays there are militias aplenty (see Web) who openly embrace that goal. Apples, oranges. Distracting. Not productive.

Absolutely. There are nuts on both sides and I'll be first in line to condemn any left wing extremist groups that start killing scientists or the CEO's of logging companies or bombing labs filled with people. But that isn't what's happening right now.

On the other hand, we do have the same rise of anti-government rhetoric and militias that we saw in the 90's, combined with a crippling economic climate that makes it all the easier for already disturbed people to decide they're going out and want to take people with them. The conditions are in place for events like the OK city bombing. The Clinton admin saw a fivefold increase in abortion related violence-- that all went away under Bush, and yet 5 months into a new Dem admin we've already seen the murder of Tiller-- and threatening calls to and vandalism of abortion clinics have already spiked upward sharply.

553 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:51:31pm

re: #466 spudly

I've recommended A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell to a lot of people who mention they feel the left-right dichotomy leaves something to be desired. There is another dichotomy, one that works- this being the two visions discussed in the book. You have the constrained vision which believes in the rule of law, and the unconstrained vision which believes in the rule of men (these are very simplistic and crude generalizations of the visions). These visions cut across the the left-right dichotomy, and in those with an unconstrained vision on the right, we see things like this- jingoistic vigilantism.

554 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:51:41pm

Hey, there's now a button to close the Preview Window!

Just thought I'd say that, because I know a lot of you don't use Preview...

555 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:52:39pm

What a piece of shit!
But, It seems he was vetted about as well as our .....
.................Well, you know!

556 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:52:57pm

re: #545 wrenchwench

And chocolate! Don't forget the chocolate!

**perks up**

557 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:52:57pm
558 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:53:01pm

re: #542 coldwarrior

501st 4/5/6 were the infantry in berlin.

solid dudes. u at ft campbell?

Yeh funny how they broke the brigade up.
I was at Campbell. 9/88-9/91

559 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:53:02pm

re: #554 wrenchwench

Hey, there's now a button to close the Preview Window!

Just thought I'd say that, because I know a lot of you don't use Preview...

Nice!

560 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:53:14pm

re: #554 wrenchwench

Hey, there's now a button to close the Preview Window!

Just thought I'd say that, because I know a lot of you don't use Preview...

Do your had a linked to thoose statistics?

561 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:54:06pm

re: #557 Iron Fist

Cool. That is good news. We don't hear enough of it, and that, in and of itself, may be deliberate on the part of the MSM. Where support for gun control is absolute unless, like Carl Rowan, they get caught with a gun.

Try reading High Country News [Link: www.hcn.org...]

562 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:54:13pm

re: #543 callahan23

What makes one look American?
Today a student (arab) told me he was convinced that I looked totally Jewish.
Born and raised protestant developed atheist is what reality is. I am a strong supporter of Israel though.
There you go with outwardly appearances.

flat top, 5' 8" 195 lbs, 48" jacket, devilish grin, and ray ban aviators...its american no matter how u slice it.

563 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:54:40pm

oh geschissen worden, bin ich aus Bier heraus! bbiab

564 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:54:50pm
565 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:55:11pm

re: #549 DEZes

Your student is a dipshit.

Yep, and a big surprise too, appeared always to be so nicely westernized. And out of the blue he hammers that old you are 'looking Jewish' into the dialogue. Wham there went my allusions of him being so nicely integrated.

566 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:55:18pm
567 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:55:20pm

re: #531 unrealizedviewpoint

We should request of Charles that he forgo all further upgrades or enhancements to the LGF Weblog until he solves this pressing problem, ie: the inability to share cocktails with one another in real time.

He has Stinky's cousin, Scotty Beaumont, working on transporter technology now. However, he keeps having trouble with the dilithium crystals.

568 Bloodnok  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:55:35pm

re: #554 wrenchwench

Hey, there's now a button to close the Preview Window!

Just thought I'd say that, because I know a lot of you don't use Preview...

Waht are you trynig to say? Hmmmm?

569 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:55:39pm

re: #554 wrenchwench

Hey, there's now a button to close the Preview Window!

Just thought I'd say that, because I know a lot of you don't use Preview...

PIFW!

570 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:55:43pm

re: #548 Walter L. Newton

Actually there is a lot of support for gun rights along the upper tier states in the west and mid west, and I mean support from Democrats and democratic leaders.

You just don't hear about it as much. A lot of this has to do with the culture in those areas, farmers, cattleman, hunters, fishers and such.

It's a more varied subject than just the black and white of gun control we see coming out of DC. and the East and Left coast.

If not for these more conservative, Bible belt folks and their support of the 2nd Amend, the DC, East & West Coast dems would have stripped our 2nd Amend Rights away already.

571 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:56:19pm

re: #524 nikis-knight


I'm not arguing that this man in the article isn't "right wing" but rather I am supporting Mandy's assertion that rule of law and respect for life are [American] conservative values high on the list--and that saying so isn't somehow wandering into this fallacy.

There is no fallacy in stating that certain values are considered important, but when the statement takes the form that a lawbreaker cannot be a a member of group X, be it conservative or liberal - (and both groups could make their respective cases equally passionately I am sure) - then we are very definitely in no true scotsman territory.

572 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:56:29pm

re: #505 iceweasel
George Bush was pretty moderate, actually. Conservative on taxes, liberal on spending. Strong foreign policy, which has become conservative mostly in reaction to him and liberals decrying Iraq. Consevative socially, sure, but he did work with democrats on education and medicare, to the result of expanding the federal gov.

I like the man and don't expect perfection in a president; he was a conservative on some things, forced to compromise on others, and not at all conservative to begin with on others.

Another way to sum this up is in the saying "Conservatism can never fail; it can only be failed" -- that is, some people do not believe that conservative policies or people ever fail, instead saying that the failure of those policies or those people is only proof that they were insufficiently conservative: not conservative enough.

the concept of a policy success is nebulous, and the real world more complicated than ideology; complete success is impossible and even well-intentioned politicians fail to look past stage 1. Even still, I'll say that not everything called conservative is so by the common definition.

573 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:56:39pm

re: #558 screaming_eagle

Yeh funny how they broke the brigade up.
I was at Campbell. 9/88-9/91

cool, we know the same people.

have a shot of vodka (tito's) on me.

574 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:56:40pm

re: #541 Iron Fist

There may be individual exceptions, but if you support the Second Amnedment, you might want to take a look at what else your theoretical side supports. And see if you really believe it.

I choose every position I support based on its own merits and how well it accords with my values--not based on whether it is endorsed by anyone else. I don't endorse any 'side' or have one. I'd fall on the left side of the spectrum on many issues and that's a more convenient way to summarise where I am.

I think 'liberals' and 'conservatives' have a lot more in common than we often suspect, which is one reason I'm not so satisfied with the left/right dichotomy.

575 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:57:27pm

re: #554 wrenchwench

Hey, there's now a button to close the Preview Window!

Just thought I'd say that, because I know a lot of you don't use Preview...

What was you're first clew? :)

576 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:57:41pm

re: #562 coldwarrior

flat top, 5' 8" 195 lbs, 48" jacket, devilish grin, and ray ban aviators...its american no matter how u slice it.

Yep, stands out a bit. ;-)

577 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:58:11pm

re: #502 screaming_eagle

I went in as an E-3.

578 3 wood  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:58:13pm

Well, here's some sort of good news.

In Finance, Recent Signs of Hiring


Job hunters' stock may be rising on Wall Street.

Large and midsize financial-services institutions are hiring again, albeit modestly. Recruiters cite improving financial markets and increasing investor confidence as catalysts. They say some firms that laid off too many workers at the start of the recession now want to take advantage of the large amount of talent available. Most desired are proven performers skilled in areas such as credit, refinancing, wealth management and restructuring.

579 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:58:51pm

re: #565 callahan23

Yep, and a big surprise too, appeared always to be so nicely westernized. And out of the blue he hammers that old you are 'looking Jewish' into the dialogue. Wham there went my allusions of him being so nicely integrated.

Beats the hell outta looking like a Jihadist. ;)

580 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:59:28pm

re: #575 BlueCanuck

What was you're first clew? :)

LOL.

581 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:59:35pm

re: #562 coldwarrior

flat top, 5' 8" 195 lbs, 48" jacket, devilish grin, and ray ban aviators...its american no matter how u slice it.

Drop 20lbs, leather jacket... and there I am.

582 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 3:59:59pm

re: #560 Walter L. Newton

Do your had a linked to thoose statistics?

I see "PIMF" all the time, but I think some folks never visit their friend....

583 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:00:18pm

re: #564 buzzsawmonkey

If the student brings you an apple, examine it closely for ticking.

I am now sorry to have declined the offer of the 'chemtrail-sniffer-device' I once received via email.
;-)

584 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:00:19pm

re: #571 Jimmah

There is no fallacy in stating that certain values are considered important, but when the statement takes the form that a lawbreaker cannot be a a member of group X, be it conservative or liberal - (and both groups could make their respective cases equally passionately I am sure) - then we are very definitely in no true scotsman territory.

So if I say "No true pacifist shoots a man in cold blood without provocation" that is a fallacy?

585 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:01:20pm

re: #576 callahan23

Yep, stands out a bit. ;-)

the funniest part about that is the following: my ex wife (from dublin ireland) and i were in dublin for holiday. she went one way with her mom and i went another (to the pub). an hour later she sees me 200 yards away in a crowd. we meet up and she said i stood out like a sore thumb.

586 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:01:46pm
587 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:02:08pm

re: #584 nikis-knight
I read that twice...and it's still funny!
LOL

588 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:02:34pm

re: #581 JCM

Drop 20lbs, leather jacket... and there I am.

the sad part is that i was at that height and weight and made tape in the army.

589 JCM  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:02:41pm

re: #583 callahan23

I am now sorry to have declined the offer of the 'chemtrail-sniffer-device' I once received via email.
;-)

They don't work, we here on the Chemtrail team sell them for a little extra money on the side.

590 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:03:49pm
591 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:03:52pm

re: #552 iceweasel
re: #566 Iron Fist

a quick visit to a page called Empowerment zone (not linking for a reason) is dedicated to showing how to cause harm. Of course, the disclaimer at the top says "please don't use this information to harm people or property but..."

kooks are everywhere, this is not isolated to any particular party.

592 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:04:33pm

re: #583 callahan23

I am now sorry to have declined the offer of the 'chemtrail-sniffer-device' I once received via email.
;-)


If he does bring in an apple, make him eat it. ;)

593 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:04:36pm

re: #591 ArmyWife

re: #566 Iron Fist

a quick visit to a page called Empowerment zone (not linking for a reason) is dedicated to showing how to cause harm. Of course, the disclaimer at the top says "please don't use this information to harm people or property but..."

kooks are everywhere, this is not isolated to any particular party.

is the anarchists' cookbook still published?

594 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:04:56pm

re: #585 coldwarrior

the funniest part about that is the following: my ex wife (from dublin ireland) and i were in dublin for holiday. she went one way with her mom and i went another (to the pub). an hour later she sees me 200 yards away in a crowd. we meet up and she said i stood out like a sore thumb.

Well the 'sore' part was a tad bit mean, wasn't it?

595 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:04:59pm
596 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:05:14pm

re: #524 nikis-knight

I'm not arguing that this man in the article isn't "right wing" but rather I am supporting Mandy's assertion that rule of law and respect for life are [American] conservative values high on the list--and that saying so isn't somehow wandering into this fallacy.

Agreed. The problem is that "values on a list" have nothing to do with reality. "Family values" and "marital fidelity" remain very high on the conservative list as well, but we've seen how that's played out in political and church scandals galore over the past few years. Lists are a distraction. What matters is how people behave.

In that regard, I would say that "rule of law" has taken at least as bad a beating from conservatives in recent years as marital fidelity has. They skirt the law "for our own good," to hear them tell it, but that's still lawbreaking.

597 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:05:17pm

re: #593 coldwarrior

I've taken my name off of that mailing list. ;)

598 spudly  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:05:19pm

re: #553 Sharmuta

I see that as overly simplistic as well, though it's an interesting take to be sure. The problem being I can easily envision people holding both of those views in a situationally dependent way.

Politics is too complicated for such simplistic calculus (any such system, not the one you discuss in particular).

Take "racism" as an example. You can perhaps create a definition of such KKK-like racism using that paradigm, but what about racists who happen to be minorities? I hear Hispanics (vociferously Democratic) say things about Jews, Blacks, Asians, etc that stun me all the time. Clearly being racist isn't a sufficient quality to be "right wing" by any possible measure.

599 freetoken  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:05:28pm

Today's winner of the Politicians-Say-The-Stupidest-Things contest is none other than Mexican President Calderón:

“Our aim is very clear: We will recover the position of leadership Mexico is entitled to in the world as a petroleum power. That way we will be able to trigger our country's growth and development in the coming decades," he stressed.

The highlighted sentence fails in soooo many ways...

600 3 wood  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:05:36pm

Further market drop expected by some:


Pros Say: 5-15% Market Correction Coming


The markets are headed towards a correction, said Hugh Johnson of Johnson Illington Advisors. "The market is ahead of itself. It is effectively overstating the strength of the recovery that's coming in the third or fourth quarter. So a 5- to 15-percent correction or decline in stock prices from current levels is what I would guess."


Only the true Obama worshippers and those unfamiliar with economics still think that the stimulus bill has worked as it was represented to do.

Even Biden admitted the other day that they guessed wrong.

601 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:06:37pm
602 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:06:54pm

re: #596 ShanghaiEd

Can you say what exactly you mean about skirting the law for our own good? Corruption? The Patriot Act? What do you mean?

I think it is a useful distinction to make, also, between a moment of weakness and just missing the concept.

603 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:07:20pm

re: #572 nikis-knight

I agree with you, and while it's inconvenient to point this out, Obama is far from being a true liberal or progressive. In many cases he's chosen to continue pre-existing Bush policies, and so far his record in re: civil liberties is Meet the new Bush, same as the old Bush.

On the right Obama is pilloried as a socialist or a communist or even worse; in reality he only falls slightly to the left of the center. We don't really have a left or liberal party in the US as these things are counted in Europe.

(and that's pretty much all I'm going to say about it here, but anyone who is interested can take a spin through the left/progressive blogosphere to find a boatload of criticisms of Obama from the left.)

604 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:07:38pm

re: #584 nikis-knight

So if I say "No true pacifist shoots a man in cold blood without provocation" that is a fallacy?

Obviously not. But is that analogous to saying "no true conservative shoots a man in cold blood"? Again, the answer is "obviously not".

605 callahan23  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:08:48pm

re: #592 DEZes

If he does bring in an apple, make him eat it. ;)

I'll give him a ham sandwich in exchange. ;-)

606 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:09:14pm

re: #600 3 wood

To continue to believe this will work is more than being an Obama supporter, it is willful ignorance.

607 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:09:19pm

re: #603 iceweasel

You really believe that?

608 DEZes  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:09:35pm

re: #605 callahan23

I'll give him a ham sandwich in exchange. ;-)

And make him eat both. hehehe.

609 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:09:49pm

re: #591 ArmyWife

re: #566 Iron Fist

kooks are everywhere, this is not isolated to any particular party.

That's certainly true. The nut tree drops its nuts indiscriminately on both sides of the fence.

610 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:09:55pm

re: #597 ArmyWife

I've taken my name off of that mailing list. ;)

good stuff there :)

611 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:11:05pm

re: #607 formercorpsman

You really believe that?

(and that's pretty much all I'm going to say about it here, but anyone who is interested can take a spin through the left/progressive blogosphere to find a boatload of criticisms of Obama from the left.)

612 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:11:06pm

re: #603 iceweasel

Obama is also a mixed bag, but where he is liberal (economics) he is enormously so.

Obviously not. But is that analogous to saying "no true conservative shoots a man in cold blood"? Again, the answer is "obviously not".

Well, now you've granted that certain acts of law breaking can violate principles and weaken a persons associations with a cause. From there, we are just quibbling about which, without engaging in fallacies, and that brings us back to what I said above:

The problem isn't the "No True Scotsman", it is that there isn't an objective definition of Conservative. But I support throwing out, even post-humously, people who act contrarily to the rule of law and respect for life as Mandy described.

613 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:11:16pm
614 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:12:10pm

re: #612 nikis-knightPIMF; replying to 2 different posts there; anyway, that's all I've to say today, so take it apart at your leisure.

615 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:12:21pm

re: #601 Iron Fist

Key word there is self defense. That is much MUCH different than instructing on blow torching a window open to make less noise than a brick would, or to place metal spikes at JUST THE RIGHT ANGLE to prevent the removal of handcuffs when one has determined being handcuffed to a tree is appropriate.

616 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:12:34pm

re: #613 buzzsawmonkey

I hear it has a great recipe for The World Turned Upside-Down Cake.

Main Ingredient:Elections in Iran

617 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:12:34pm

re: #611 iceweasel

I think making that post, and then not backing up retort might smack of weaseling out :)

618 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:13:05pm

re: #613 buzzsawmonkey

I hear it has a great recipe for The World Turned Upside-Down Cake.

that publication had some good stuff, i have several copies that are kept in the gun safe; i like the recipe section.

619 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:13:43pm

re: #524 nikis-knight

I am supporting Mandy's assertion that rule of law and respect for life are [American] conservative values high on the list--and that saying so isn't somehow wandering into this fallacy.

I consider rule of law and respect for life to be fundamental American values; neither party has a lock on them--and members of both parties sometimes lack those values.

620 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:13:57pm

re: #618 coldwarrior

I hope you are kidding.

621 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:15:19pm

Some more Sheila Chandra in classical(ish) mode:

Wings Of The Dawn:

622 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:16:10pm

Flashing light at Drudge

[Link: www.drudgereport.com...]

OBAMA PLAN TO CALL FOR SUPERVISION OF GLOBAL FINANCIAL FIRMS

623 Basho  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:16:41pm

re: #604 Jimmah

Obviously not. But is that analogous to saying "no true conservative shoots a man in cold blood"? Again, the answer is "obviously not".

You've fallen into a trap, since it is entirely possible for a pacifist shoot "a man in cold blood", and for a variety of justifiable (to the pacifist murderer) reasons, such as a belief that the victim was a danger to the cause he or she believes in.

624 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:17:13pm

re: #617 formercorpsman

I think making that post, and then not backing up retort might smack of weaseling out :)

:)
Well, I did say immediately that it wasn't a discussion I was interested in having here....

You know what, you could try looking at this:

[Link: www.politicalcompass.org...]

and especially

[Link: www.politicalcompass.org...]

That second one shows the US presidential candidates and where they fall; i think this is more useful than the left/right dichotomy.

625 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:17:29pm

re: #620 ArmyWife

I hope you are kidding.

nope.

i've used some for tree stump removal (in a very rural area). charles beat me up for talking about this sort of thing some years ago so, i stop now.

626 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:17:45pm

re: #600 3 wood

Further market drop expected by some:

Pros Say: 5-15% Market Correction Coming


Only the true Obama worshippers and those unfamiliar with economics still think that the stimulus bill has worked as it was represented to do.

Even Biden admitted the other day that they guessed wrong.

I think the latest market upticks have been the working through of bad assets by banks/companys/investment firms. Now that the chaff has been worked through, there's not much there, there. Not much growth, a lot of waiting to see how the wind blows. This administration does not inspire confidence and, at times is almost hostile to business. Business is wary.

627 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:18:12pm

re: #622 ArmyWife

Flashing light at Drudge

[Link: www.drudgereport.com...]

OBAMA PLAN TO CALL FOR SUPERVISION OF GLOBAL FINANCIAL FIRMS

Well, there you go.

628 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:18:46pm

re: #612 nikis-knight

Your other points are addressed to someone else, not me. (I agree with your point about Obama, btw)

629 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:19:13pm

re: #627 Russkilitlover

I'm hoping someone has some insight into this - the headline is ominous at best.

630 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:19:27pm

re: #598 spudly

I think if you take the time to read the book, you'll understand that the two vision are far from simplistic.

631 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:19:36pm

re: #600 3 wood

Don't be surprised if it starts tomorrow either. Actually, it would be more accurate to say it started yesterday will accelerate tomorrow when Obama announces how he wants government to fuck up the financial system even more than it already is... you know, for the good of us proles.

632 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:19:41pm

re: #622 ArmyWife

Flashing light at Drudge

[Link: www.drudgereport.com...]

OBAMA PLAN TO CALL FOR SUPERVISION OF GLOBAL FINANCIAL FIRMS

And the hits just keep coming.

633 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:21:20pm

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama said on Tuesday that worrying about the U.S. government's finances "keeps me awake at night" and the country needed to start planning now to tackle soaring deficits.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

He plans on spending trillions and he is worried? What the F..ck. Don't spend money you don't have asshole.

634 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:21:56pm
635 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:22:31pm

re: #633 Nevergiveup

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama said on Tuesday that worrying about the U.S. government's finances "keeps me awake at night" and the country needed to start planning now to tackle soaring deficits.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

He plans on spending trillions and he is worried? What the F..ck. Don't spend money you don't have asshole.

Keep everyone in crises/panic mode. Then grab all you can. It's an effective formula that works for him again and again. And folks seem to keep lapping it up.

636 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:22:36pm

re: Iron Fist

One small step for nationkind, one GREAT LEAP FORWARD for Global Governance...

"never let a crisis go to waste."

637 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:22:49pm
638 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:23:02pm

Might want to buy SKF or FAZ pre-market tomorrow, but don't be a Cramerican and back up any trucks...

639 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:23:05pm

re: #632 Walter L. Newton

We have a guy running roughshod over our Constitution, and MY party has their heads up their fourth point of contact! What now?

640 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:23:13pm

re: #633 Nevergiveup

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama said on Tuesday that worrying about the U.S. government's finances "keeps me awake at night" and the country needed to start planning now to tackle soaring deficits.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

He plans on spending trillions and he is worried? What the F..ck. Don't spend money you don't have asshole.

hey, dont oversimplify the nuanced economic stragedy the obama has brought b4 u! :)

641 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:23:17pm

Leading GOP Senator Admits Extramarital Affair With Campaign Staffer
Republican Sen. John Ensign of Nevada is admitting he had an extramarital affair with a member of his campaign staff.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Why can't these assholes keep it in their pants or keep it quite? What ever happened to being discreet?

642 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:23:46pm

re: #622 ArmyWife

No way, he is just left of center.

643 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:23:59pm

re: #639 ArmyWife

We have a guy running roughshod over our Constitution, and MY party has their heads up their fourth point of contact! What now?

out of the ashes rises...

644 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:24:12pm

re: #639 ArmyWife

We have a guy running roughshod over our Constitution, and MY party has their heads up their fourth point of contact! What now?

Go to the mattresses?

645 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:24:14pm

re: #641 Nevergiveup

Intertubes.

646 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:24:31pm

re: #586 buzzsawmonkey

The obsession over whether an extremist is "left" or "right" wing seems as silly to me as adding Special Hate categories to crimes.

Do I care if the brutal murderer whose tale tops this thread was leftwing or rightwing? No; it is that he is a brutal murderer. Do I care if Jeremiah Wright is leftwing or rightwing? No; it is that he is an inflammatory racist who makes common cause with the enemies of this country. Etc.

As the example of von Brunn recently showed, those who live in the swamp of hatred and paranoia often embrace ideas which may be held by either left- or rightwingers; say rather that the stews of hatred have a rhythm all their own. Fevered minds often embrace mutually contradictory notions, and some lunacies may adorn the thinking, or what passes for it, of extremists no matter where on the spectrum they may appear to be, or believe themselves to fit.

I completely agree with you that nuts are nuts, no party has a lock on them, and it's silly and more than a little stupid to try to claim that Wright somehow represents everyone on "Teh Left" or that Brunn represents everyone on "Teh Right."

Nonetheless it's useful for law enforcement to be aware of trends and influences in extremist groups all over and to be monitoring those.

But I think having this crazy postmortems about whether we can call Brunn "right wing" or not, whether he's a registered Democrat or not, is a distraction and more than a little ugly.

647 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:24:39pm

re: #644 Nevergiveup

Do you see where that got Ensign?

648 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:25:18pm

re: #629 ArmyWife

I'm hoping someone has some insight into this - the headline is ominous at best.

Well, Russian demands for "new reserve currencies" is gaining traction in American bond holders (i.e, the Chinese) so, someone has some insight!

649 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:25:44pm

re: #647 ArmyWife

Do you see where that got Ensign?

Good one!

650 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:25:51pm

re: #624 iceweasel

Out of curiosity, have you read Dreams of my Father?

651 ihateronpaul  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:26:06pm

Pshhh, more liberal bias. Anti-Immigration is clearly a left wing issue.


////////////

652 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:26:24pm

re: #602 nikis-knight

Can you say what exactly you mean about skirting the law for our own good? Corruption? The Patriot Act? What do you mean?

I think it is a useful distinction to make, also, between a moment of weakness and just missing the concept.

Too many instances to count, but many of the most egregious for me originated in VP Cheney's proclamation that he was, technically, his own branch of government. It was a historic grab of power for the Executive branch, the extent of which won't really sink in for a good while. Congress was largely shut out of the process for years, and their lack of cojones in response still makes me livid.

As for distinguishing between "a moment of weakness" and "missing the concept" where lawbreaking is concerned...to me that's an exact description of "relativism" as condemned by the law-and-order crowd. I was taught that laws are laws. Next thing, we'll be practicing "empathy". Can't have it both ways.

653 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:26:24pm

re: #623 Basho

You've fallen into a trap, since it is entirely possible for a pacifist shoot "a man in cold blood", and for a variety of justifiable (to the pacifist murderer) reasons, such as a belief that the victim was a danger to the cause he or she believes in.

I thought that those sort of options were completely off the table for pacifists?

654 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:27:18pm

re: #622 ArmyWife

Flashing light at Drudge

[Link: www.drudgereport.com...]

OBAMA PLAN TO CALL FOR SUPERVISION OF GLOBAL FINANCIAL FIRMS

great, more job losses...

655 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:27:39pm

re: #641 Nevergiveup

Leading GOP Senator Admits Extramarital Affair With Campaign Staffer
Republican Sen. John Ensign of Nevada is admitting he had an extramarital affair with a member of his campaign staff.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Why can't these assholes keep it in their pants or keep it quite? What ever happened to being discreet?

The Starr Report happened.

Some politicans have never kept it in their pants; but the witchhunt over Clinton/Lewinsky completely erased forever all the lines around politicans extramarital discretions.
(that line had been getting slowly erased, witness Gary Hart. -- but no one cared when JFK was messing around, or that GHWB had someone on the side for many years. I don't think any of it is any of our business.)

656 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:27:50pm

re: #654 brookly red

No, jobs saved.

657 screaming_eagle  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:28:32pm

re: #633 Nevergiveup

He plans on spending trillions and he is worried? What the F..ck. Don't spend money you don't have asshole.

I heard he is planning on a dozen new printing presses and cranking out $100 bills.

(Wish I could add a /)

658 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:28:46pm

re: #654 brookly red

Maybe he is going to let Gettelfinger head that up, too.

659 Basho  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:29:22pm

re: #653 Jimmah

I thought that those sort of options were completely off the table for pacifists?

Your dealing with human ingenuity and not a computer program... a person can rationalize a reason to commit murder even if they are absolutely opposed to it. The greater good and all that...

660 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:29:30pm

re: #655 iceweasel

GHWB? Where?

661 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:29:45pm

re: #655 iceweasel

Actually, I disagree completely. I know, big surprise there.

For the very fact if you read the article as to why Ensign came public with it to begin with.

He was going to be blackmailed.

I don't want that over my CoC's head. But, I do come from a military angle though.

662 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:29:45pm

re: #622 ArmyWife

New World Order! Socialism! Panic and Tea Party like your life depends on it!

663 Basho  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:29:54pm

re: #659 Basho

You're***

664 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:30:08pm

re: #518 iceweasel

I don't think that's true. I'm a lib and I and lots of libs I know have no interest in taking away anyone's guns; some of us even own them ourselves.

I don't know who decided or when it was decided that the liberals would be anti-gun, but I can't think of a position that has hurt the Democrats more. That's a lot of people you are telling to never consider voting for the Democrats. I think a small percentage of Democrat's regret this position, a fairly small percentage are hard-core anti-gun, and the greatest percentage don't care that much. Of course those not caring or being pro-gun aren't voting in primaries.

665 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:30:12pm

re: #651 ihateronpaul

Pshhh, more liberal bias. Anti-Immigration is clearly a left wing issue.

////////////

Well it should be because they are non-union labor, and unless you are Toyota, using non-union labor is like clubbing baby seals to a lefty.

666 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:30:47pm

FLASHING LIGHT LINK - 1,2,3 GO!

[Link: www.alertnet.org...]

667 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:30:50pm

re: #655 iceweasel

HUH?

668 Basho  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:31:42pm

re: #653 Jimmah

Besides, true pacifism doesn't exist.

669 freetoken  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:31:51pm

re: #652 ShanghaiEd

... in VP Cheney's proclamation that he was, technically, his own branch of government.

I always thought that was kind of... well, cute.

670 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:31:52pm

re: #655 iceweasel

The Starr Report happened.

Some politicans have never kept it in their pants; but the witchhunt over Clinton/Lewinsky completely erased forever all the lines around politicans extramarital discretions.
(that line had been getting slowly erased, witness Gary Hart. -- but no one cared when JFK was messing around, or that GHWB had someone on the side for many years. I don't think any of it is any of our business.)

I am not so sure it was the Starr report, but these people make me sick. Not that they cheat on their spouses, that's bad enough, but that they are so stupid to think they will not get caught. And their making the Laws? If they have no respect for their wives and vows, why would they have any respect for us? The American voter is just someone else for them to F...ck.

671 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:31:54pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

You may recall my thoughts on tea parties, but setting that aside, are you ok with this? As someone whose salary depends on corporate America, I'm disturbed.

672 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:32:16pm

re: #658 ArmyWife

Maybe he is going to let Gettelfinger head that up, too.

well that is probably the plan, but the companies will probably just leave the country...

673 tradewind  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:32:39pm

Iranian government mullahs decide they'll play the twitter game:
(Twitterati have already spread the word that this is bogus)
[Link: twitter.com...]

674 Basho  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:32:43pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

=)

675 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:33:42pm

re: #661 formercorpsman

Actually, I disagree completely. I know, big surprise there.

For the very fact if you read the article as to why Ensign came public with it to begin with.

He was going to be blackmailed.

I don't want that over my CoC's head. But, I do come from a military angle though.

That is why immoral behavior is a security risk.

676 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:33:51pm

re: #672 brookly red

especially those with a presence in India, Dubai, etc. etc. Guess I need to dust off my burkini.

677 tradewind  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:34:12pm

re: #660 ArmyWife

That was never found to be true.

678 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:34:58pm

re: #659 Basho

Your dealing with human ingenuity and not a computer program... a person can rationalize a reason to commit murder even if they are absolutely opposed to it. The greater good and all that...

Ok, but the way I see it, in that case they are abdicating any reasonable claim to be a pacifist. They may still rationalise that they are a pacifist, but I will think they are kidding themselves. PINO's, if you like.

679 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:35:06pm
680 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:35:10pm

re: #677 tradewind

Good. I was wanting a linky and preparing to be crushed.

681 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:35:33pm

re: #671 ArmyWife

We've known this has been coming for months now so it's no surprise. It's also probably nothing to worry about. There needs to be rules for the international market place. It's like driving; if there were no rules people would be driving on the wrong side of the street in a top heavy donkey cart.
I know this stuff just frightens the hell out of a lot of people but this is no big deal and it's probably even a good thing.

682 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:35:35pm
683 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:35:40pm

re: #679 buzzsawmonkey

Because Babs isn't a beauty queen? She has a great personality. ;)

684 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:36:00pm

re: #566 Iron Fist

Heard of the Animal Liberation Front? The Earth Liberation Front? Before 9-11 these were two of the most prolific terrorist organizations in the US.

Yes, and I've bolded the relevant part. They're not active now. When they start being active again, they'll move to the forefront of domestic terrorist threat assessment again, as they should.
Right now the most active groups and individuals on the domestic terrorist front happen to be coming from the right wing extremists, not the left wing extremists--as the news over the last few weeks shows.

685 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:36:02pm

re: #664 Flyers1974

I don't know who decided or when it was decided that the liberals would be anti-gun, but I can't think of a position that has hurt the Democrats more. That's a lot of people you are telling to never consider voting for the Democrats. I think a small percentage of Democrat's regret this position, a fairly small percentage are hard-core anti-gun, and the greatest percentage don't care that much. Of course those not caring or being pro-gun aren't voting in primaries.

The libs can't control the crime in the cities they control so they blame the gun, again and again. They enact law after law that serves no purpose but to restrict law abiding citizens of their right to defend themselves, family and property. All a smoke-screen, and all within the lib controlled east/west big cities.

686 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:36:17pm

re: #681 Killgore Trout

How?

687 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:36:24pm
688 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:36:49pm

re: #681 Killgore Trout

We've known this has been coming for months now so it's no surprise. It's also probably nothing to worry about. There needs to be rules for the international market place. It's like driving; if there were no rules people would be driving on the wrong side of the street in a top heavy donkey cart.
I know this stuff just frightens the hell out of a lot of people but this is no big deal and it's probably even a good thing.

The current rules are insufficient?

689 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:36:53pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

New World Order! Socialism! Panic and Tea Party like your life depends on it!

Where are my checked shirts, my guns, my Alex Jones "how to survive in a hidden woodland shack" guide?

690 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:37:13pm

re: #675 Nevergiveup

That is why, when someone serving their country is caught in it, they can be prosecuted under the UCMJ.

It provides some serious leverage for nefarious motives.

Moreover, it places the spouse, partner, or significant other at risk for disease, etc.

691 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:37:22pm
692 tradewind  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:37:35pm

re: #679 buzzsawmonkey

If ' that's all you can say ', why say anything?
The way the MSM treats the Bushes, it's very difficult for me to accept that anything real could have been kept quiet. They were able to peel off the wraps of an expunged arrest record..... they would publish anything.

693 brookly red  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:37:39pm

re: #681 Killgore Trout

We've known this has been coming for months now so it's no surprise. It's also probably nothing to worry about. There needs to be rules for the international market place. It's like driving; if there were no rules people would be driving on the wrong side of the street in a top heavy donkey cart.
I know this stuff just frightens the hell out of a lot of people but this is no big deal and it's probably even a good thing.

its not the rules as much as who sets them that frightens people.

694 ArmyWife  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:37:53pm

re: #687 buzzsawmonkey

I've been hit on by more than one Senator. I won't name names. An AFL - CIO pres, too. Poor guy.

695 tradewind  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:38:24pm

re: #687 buzzsawmonkey

And there's no more reliable source than a lobbyist. It's just settled....

696 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:38:36pm

re: #670 Nevergiveup

I am not so sure it was the Starr report, but these people make me sick. Not that they cheat on their spouses, that's bad enough, but that they are so stupid to think they will not get caught. And their making the Laws? If they have no respect for their wives and vows, why would they have any respect for us? The American voter is just someone else for them to F...ck.

I think once upon a time people looked the other way and it didn't make it into the news. Now it *always* makes it into the news. I can't understand why these guys do these things.

Edwards, who is obviously a scumbag, did say something when he was busted about his narcissism. I think many (if not all) politicans have some narcissism, and that often leads to them believing they can do anything they want--including affairs.

697 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:39:16pm
698 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:39:17pm

re: #668 Basho

Besides, true pacifism doesn't exist.

I can agree with that. There probably are no true pacifists at all.

699 Basho  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:39:26pm

re: #678 Jimmah

Ok, but the way I see it, in that case they are abdicating any reasonable claim to be a pacifist. They may still rationalise that they are a pacifist, but I will think they are kidding themselves. PINO's, if you like.

I'd prefer oxymoron labels like radical pacifist, pacifist extremist, pacifofacist. Hahaha

700 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:39:42pm

re: #686 ArmyWife

By regulating how hedge funds operate, making sure companies over leverage themselves (borrow too much short term money), how they price securities on their balance sheets to make sure it's accurate. That type of thing. I'm sure there's plenty to criticize. I haven't seen the details yet but this is not an end of the world thing. Much of it is probably going to be beneficial.

701 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:40:07pm

re: #691 Iron Fist

Did you see that TN just expanded its gun rights? the Republicans are planning to use it as part of their 2010 electoral strategy. I can find you the link if you like.

702 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:40:21pm

re: #690 formercorpsman

That is why, when someone serving their country is caught in it, they can be prosecuted under the UCMJ.

It provides some serious leverage for nefarious motives.

Moreover, it places the spouse, partner, or significant other at risk for disease, etc.

And we all know there is never any fraternization going on..urh.... cough ..? Sitting around with some of the Officers who were on active duty for along time, I almost piss in my pants hearing some of the stories.

703 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:40:22pm

re: #688 debutaunt

The current rules are insufficient?


I think so. That's why we have this crisis.

704 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:40:44pm

re: #698 Jimmah

I can agree with that. There probably are no true pacifists at all.

There are some, though rare. The Quakers are about the only ones I can think of.

705 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:40:46pm

re: #692 tradewind

If ' that's all you can say ', why say anything?
The way the MSM treats the Bushes, it's very difficult for me to accept that anything real could have been kept quiet. They were able to peel off the wraps of an expunged arrest record..... they would publish anything.

lets imagine if the bush's were libdems like the kenedy's...


the press would be gushing that jeb should be the next prez.

706 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:41:00pm

re: #685 unrealizedviewpoint

The libs can't control the crime in the cities they control so they blame the gun, again and again. They enact law after law that serves no purpose but to restrict law abiding citizens of their right to defend themselves, family and property. All a smoke-screen, and all within the lib controlled east/west big cities.

707 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:41:24pm
708 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:42:11pm

re: #702 Nevergiveup

Yeah, I will be the first to admit it goes on. But if someone is privy to intelligence, or vital information, it is a set up that can have some terrible consequences.

709 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:43:13pm

Jackpot....sort of.

Found a copy of the Lonely Planet- Iran guidebook (3rd edition) in my local library. A little outdated, but there's some street maps of Tehran and different landmarks highlighted that I can use as reference.

And altho' I know roughly where Tabriz and Esfehan are, my Iranian geography is pretty sketchy outside of that. So the book can come in handy if more details come in about further unrest outside of Tehran...

/plus, Mullahocracy notwithstanding, it looks like it would be a fascinating place to visit.

710 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:43:31pm

re: #706 Flyers1974

I don't know if the cons can control crime anymore than libs, but I agree, the libs do blame guns, especially re: crime in the cities. Politically, they have also been punished for it, and quite hard I think.

711 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:43:34pm

re: #708 formercorpsman

Yeah, I will be the first to admit it goes on. But if someone is privy to intelligence, or vital information, it is a set up that can have some terrible consequences.

Very true

712 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:43:34pm
713 tradewind  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:44:20pm

It's easy to see why women threw themselves at Ensign... nevermind the power factor, he's just.... hot. Sorry he didn't have more backbone. ( ...maybe 'spine ' is a better word choice ).
But I am so happy to see that his wife was not dragged up to stand silently at his side while he confessed..... that always bothered the crap out of me.... the little woman standing a'la Tammy, by her sleazebag man. At least he didn't add to her humiliation.

714 Basho  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:44:25pm

re: #704 iceweasel

There are some, though rare. The Quakers are about the only ones I can think of.

They'd call the cops if they were mugged.

715 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:44:32pm

re: #699 Basho

I'd prefer oxymoron labels like radical pacifist, pacifist extremist, pacifofacist. Hahaha

LOL. Pacifists who kick ass with extreme prejudice.

716 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:45:22pm

re: #710 Flyers1974

I don't know if the cons can control crime anymore than libs, but I agree, the libs do blame guns, especially re: crime in the cities. Politically, they have also been punished for it, and quite hard I think.

Rudy's efforts to control crime were magnificently successful. To this day his policies, still in place, are working within all 5 boroughs.

717 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:45:26pm

re: #704 iceweasel

Amish?

718 tradewind  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:46:42pm

re: #716 unrealizedviewpoint

You're right.. and they were radically non-PC, and he didn't give a damn.
Oh for those days.......

719 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:48:36pm

re: #710 Flyers1974

Not enough, IMHO....

altho' in all fairness, there are enough blue-dog democrats out there who are either pro-gun rights or know that gun-control is a big loser for them

720 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:51:18pm

re: #716 unrealizedviewpoint

I've heard that, but I'm not talking Republican/Democrat, rather con/lib. I can't say I'm versed enough on his tactics to argue the point strongly, but I'm not sure there was anything intrinsicly conservative or liberal about those tactics. I recall one tactic was enforcing quality of life crimes, I believe.

721 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:51:40pm

re: #717 Flyers1974

Amish?

re: #692 tradewind

If ' that's all you can say ', why say anything?
The way the MSM treats the Bushes, it's very difficult for me to accept that anything real could have been kept quiet. They were able to peel off the wraps of an expunged arrest record..... they would publish anything.

I understand what you're saying, but GHWB did have a longstanding affair with one woman and there was more-or-less an agreement among members of the press and his inner circle that this was not a 'news' story and shouldn't be covered. No one thought it would serve any purpose but to humiliate Barbara Bush and GHWB and their family.

Times have changed and now we drag this stuff out into the light--and the wives often get trotted out on stage to sit there with this frozen shellshocked look while they "stand by their man". It's ugly.

722 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:52:03pm

re: #718 tradewind

You're right.. and they were radically non-PC, and he didn't give a damn.
Oh for those days.......


"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

--Neal Boortz

723 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:54:39pm

re: #718 tradewind

And he could afford to be non-pc in NYC. Baltimore, not so much. One of his guys became Chief of Police in Baltimore to try the same thing, didn't work, though to be sure, he was unable to finish do to criminal charges.

724 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:56:19pm

re: #712 Iron Fist

Check this out-- you'll like it. I thought of you when I read it, actually!
The whole thing is very worth reading-- here is the money quote for those who don't have time:

Whatever the practical result of Tennessee’s new gun laws, they may well serve a political purpose: firing up the conservative base before next year’s state, local and Congressional elections.

“The Republicans are trying to embarrass the Democrats,” said John G. Geer, a political scientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville.

“They want to put these proposals on the table not only because they believe in guns, but they want to force the Democrats to come out as anti-gun,” Professor Geer said. “You can see the attack ads forming already. The Republicans have won this issue.”

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

725 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:59:34pm

re: #712 Iron Fist

Please. Thanks!

I've been too covered up to watch local politics. What I want out of Representatives is representation. I don't want to have to watch them like a hawk lest they do something against my interests, let alone my very rights.

Second Amendment Rights are Civil Rights. It is really that simple.

BTW, if you read the article about TN's new expansion of gun rights, you'll see it's about the 10th amendment at least as much as it is about the 2nd-- the assertion of state's rights against federal power. Looks interesting.

726 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 4:59:46pm

re: #723 Flyers1974

"due" to criminal charges...

I think that in Baltimore for example, his tactics wouldn't fly because of historical issues regarding blacks and the police. As a result, much animosity exists today, making those tactics very hard to implement

727 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:04:10pm

re: #726 Flyers1974

"due" to criminal charges...

I think that in Baltimore for example, his tactics wouldn't fly because of historical issues regarding blacks and the police. As a result, much animosity exists today, making those tactics very hard to implement

Also, let's not forget that while Rudy did succeed in lowering crime and making NYC safe, he also cracked down on many "lifestyle offenses"-- like noise or smoking pot or jaywalking. And there were a number of ugly incidents under the Rudy admin, Amadou Diallo (sp?) being one such.

People forget, but before 9/11 New Yorkers had started to hate Rudy's guts. While he did bring down the crime rate, the crime rate was also dropping nationally -- and many of Rudy's tactics exacerbated pre-existing racial tensions and conflicts between the police and other populations.

728 coldwarrior  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:06:48pm

re: #725 iceweasel

BTW, if you read the article about TN's new expansion of gun rights, you'll see it's about the 10th amendment at least as much as it is about the 2nd-- the assertion of state's rights against federal power. Looks interesting.

funny thing about living in pennsylvania, the law is 'shall issue'. i have had a permit to carry for a buncha years. i think i carried twice...every state should have PA's gun laws.

anyhoo, if they try to take said carry permit away, i would get peeved and active!

729 koedo  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:25:07pm

So, another right wing ex goes off the rails. I'm sure everyone is very concerned.

Now, lets talk about the thousands of Americans that have been killed by illegals. Anyone?

I mean, if people are all ga-ga about this they must be equally, or more, concerned about the reverse situation, right?

730 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:33:38pm

re: #729 koedo

So, another right wing ex goes off the rails. I'm sure everyone is very concerned.

Now, lets talk about the thousands of Americans that have been killed by illegals. Anyone?

I mean, if people are all ga-ga about this they must be equally, or more, concerned about the reverse situation, right?

And while we're going ga-ga (?), how about the millions of Americans who have been killed by legals? Huh? Who ever brings those up?
/

731 Gus  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:53:44pm

Full Name: Jason Eugene Bush Date of Birth: 08/11/1974
AKAs: Height: 6'5"
Weight: 195 LBS
Hair Color: GRAY
Eye Color: BROWN
Race: WHITE
Gender: Male

CRIMINAL OFFENSE 1
Case Number: CR94301
Offense Type: Traffic/Other
Offense Code: 9A56060
Offense Description: UNLFL ISS BANK CHECKS
Conviction Place: INTERSTATE
Date Reported:

O CRIMINAL OFFENSE 2
Offense Date:
Case Number: 971004358
Offense Type: Traffic/Other
Offense Code: 9A56150
Offense Description: POSS STOLN PROPERTY 1
Conviction Place: CHELAN
Date Reported:

O CRIMINAL OFFENSE 3
Offense Date:
Case Number: 981001152
Offense Type: Traffic/Other
Offense Code: 9A56070
Offense Description: TAMVWOP
Conviction Place: CHELAN
Date Reported:

O CRIMINAL OFFENSE 4
Offense Date:
Case Number: CRF938885
Offense Type: Traffic/Other
Offense Code: 9A56060
Offense Description: UNLFL ISS BANK CHECKS
Conviction Place: INTERSTATE
Date Reported:

V CRIMINAL OFFENSE 5
Offense Date:
Case Number: 981001144
Offense Type: Weapons
Offense Code: 0941040
Offense Description: UNLAWFUL POSS-FIREARM 1
Conviction Place: CHELAN
Date Reported:

732 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 5:54:41pm

re: #633 Nevergiveup

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama said on Tuesday that worrying about the U.S. government's finances "keeps me awake at night" and the country needed to start planning now to tackle soaring deficits.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

He plans on spending trillions and he is worried? What the F..ck. Don't spend money you don't have asshole.

he has a definite lapse in logic.
how can he be so disconnected from what he is doing.
and say such bizarre things, like people won't notice.
he looks like an idiot. like he doesn't even know what is going on.

733 ihateronpaul  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 6:00:58pm

re: #665 ArchangelMichael

Well it should be because they are non-union labor, and unless you are Toyota, using non-union labor is like clubbing baby seals to a lefty.

Uhhh maybe to a hardline liberal I guess? I live in a very liberal state (RI) and we have a surprising amount of anti-union sentiment amongst all people. Stop generalizing and making absurd statements.

734 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 6:19:00pm

re: #669 freetoken

I always thought that was kind of... well, cute.

What I can't figure is the number of people who still revere Cheney as a level-headed public servant, after all the illegal and extra-legal sh*t he pulled. The only arguments I've heard are, "well, he kept us safe..." and "he did it for our own good." I'm sorry, but that way lies totalitarianism.

735 Duane  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 6:21:59pm

Charles, how about some more posts about the soldiers that were killed by the Muslim in Arkansas?

736 occutegirl  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 6:51:41pm

Bush as never in the military. It was all BS. The time period he said he was in the military, he was in prison.

737 legalpad  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 6:58:39pm

I would really like to know who has ever denied that there are right wing extremists. Who? It never happened. Nobody ever made such a claim. Over fifty million adults in this country own guns and could be considered right wing in most respects. Someone has claimed that out of any group of fifty million, there are no extremists, and no criminals? This man is primarily a murderer. He kills a nine-year-old and you say, "This is what those right-wingers do"? This is the "extreme" form of "right wing", ah, "politics"? With all due respect, this premise contained in the title of this thread is an unsubstantiated crock. If all you've got is some poster here said there were no right wing extremists, then you've got nothing. If all you've got is a right wing extremist claiming there are no right wing extremists, you've got nothing. Most people here and the vast majority of conservatives have always acknowledged the existence of right-wing extremists. The MSM acknowledges only right wing extremists. As far as they, and a fairly serious number of Democrats are concerned, there are no left wing extremists. I have never heard of anyone denying that there are right wing "extremists".

A better debate: Was Hitler really right wing? His party used the term "Socialist" in it's title. He confiscated guns. Etc.

738 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 7:09:29pm

re: #737 legalpad

The MSM acknowledges only right wing extremists. As far as they, and a fairly serious number of Democrats are concerned, there are no left wing extremists. I have never heard of anyone denying that there are right wing "extremists".

A better debate: Was Hitler really right wing? His party used the term "Socialist" in it's title. He confiscated guns. Etc.

Link, please, as to MSM and Democrats saying "there are no left-wing extremists."

As for the Hitler "debate," I think it's been mainly held in Jonah Goldberg's head. The reputable historians of the subject agree on the answer, and I haven't seen one who agrees with Goldberg.

739 Scorch  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 7:10:08pm

re: #736 occutegirl
LOL I agree occutegirl. Considering the guy was in prison for murder from 1997 to 2003 then moved to Idaho and lived there till 2007. We must have another Rambo on our hands to make 6 overseas tours, earning a silver, bronze and purple heart and then a presidential citation. WOW....that was one busy guy.

740 Wendya  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 7:11:33pm

re: #738 ShanghaiEd

I think it's been mainly held in Jonah Goldberg's head. The reputable historians of the subject agree on the answer, and I haven't seen one who agrees with Goldberg.

No offense.... but do you need a historian to line up Hitler's economic and social policies and place them on a graph for you?

741 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 7:14:33pm

re: #740 Wendya

No offense.... but do you need a historian to line up Hitler's economic and social policies and place them on a graph for you?

No, I don't need one, personally. But anybody who takes Goldberg's light-weight B.S. at face value apparently does. No offense.

742 Wendya  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 7:19:07pm

re: #741 ShanghaiEd

No, I don't need one, personally. But anybody who takes Goldberg's light-weight B.S. at face value apparently does. No offense.

Have you examined Hitler's economic and social policies to see where they fit? Seriously, I'd love to see the comparisons to conservatism. Please, when you have time. If it's not too much effort, that is.

743 legalpad  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 7:27:45pm

re: #738 ShanghaiEd

Link, please, as to MSM and Democrats saying "there are no left-wing extremists."

As for the Hitler "debate," I think it's been mainly held in Jonah Goldberg's head. The reputable historians of the subject agree on the answer, and I haven't seen one who agrees with Goldberg.

I think with the advent of Fox, left wing extremism has been recognized. Prior to Fox, I don't think you can find mention of left-wing extremists to any significant degree. I think in my rant, I was speaking in general. My impression of the views of the MSM are not from a statement in a link, it is primarily from 40 plus years of listening to them. If you believe that the MSM does something other than a brief, obscure, and token acknowledgment of left wing extremism every blue moon, then surely, you must have a link in mind. Take it a step further and give me a link that will explain why anyone believes there is some sort of significant denial of right wing extremism.

I am unaware of Jonah Goldberg's views on Hitler. But no known right-winger in the United States has ever advocated gun confiscation.

744 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 7:27:53pm

re: #742 Wendya

Have you examined Hitler's economic and social policies to see where they fit? Seriously, I'd love to see the comparisons to conservatism. Please, when you have time. If it's not too much effort, that is.

Wait. Who said "conservative"? legalpad and I were talking about Right-wing. (Good thing the term Republican has fallen out of use, huh?)

But, yes, I've examined them. I've got a ton of info, if you're sincerely interested. To save time, though, do you know of an actual historian who shares Goldberg's view? We've discussed this on LGF a lot. I don't have the urge to re-litigate the "controversy" over Intelligent Design, and where serious scholarship is concerned, Goldberg and a few bloggers are the equivalent of ID, as far as I can tell. Evidence to the contrary is welcome. Otherwise, life's too short.

745 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 7:39:17pm

re: #743 legalpad

You've qualified your original statement to the point where I won't argue with you, significantly.

As to Hitler, there's a name for the logical fallacy of saying vegetarians are generally liberal, Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore he was a liberal, but right now I'm blanking out on the name for it.

I don't know of any U.S. politician, left or right, who's advocated gun confiscation. Do you?

Let me try the Hitler logic on an unrelated subject:

Protesters in Iran don't have firearms...left-wing governments prohibit firearms...therefore, Iran is a left-wing paradise. Yeah, that works.

746 legalpad  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 8:14:00pm

re: #745 ShanghaiEd

You've qualified your original statement to the point where I won't argue with you, significantly.

As to Hitler, there's a name for the logical fallacy of saying vegetarians are generally liberal, Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore he was a liberal, but right now I'm blanking out on the name for it.

I don't know of any U.S. politician, left or right, who's advocated gun confiscation. Do you?

Let me try the Hitler logic on an unrelated subject:
Protesters in Iran don't have firearms...left-wing governments prohibit firearms...therefore, Iran is a left-wing paradise. Yeah, that works.

Yeah, well, I never meant to say, I think obviously, that the MSM openly made a formal declaration. They don't work that way. They influence, like in advertising. Clear statements about false conclusions they would like to lead people to would not help their apparent goals.

I'm blanking too, but, links are easy for that. I do not believe that "left-wing, right-wing" is all there is to politics.

Maybe Ray Nagin was behind some confiscation. I guess him or the New Orleans police, not so much advocated as did it. And of course we have entire cities that are almost supposed to be gun-free zones. Look, as you know, openly advocating is not necessarily the real qualifier here. To advocate would be political suicide to anyone in a country where the citizens have guns. I don't think anyone who confiscated weapons openly advocated it while they were dependent on being voted into office.

Try to remember that I only suggested a debate on the subject of Hitler. I am not Jonah Goldberg. My primary point is that it would be a better debate than debating that anybody much said there were no right-wing extremists. And a left-wing paradise is a contradiction in terms.

747 koedo  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 8:41:27pm

ShanghaiEd,

If you want to bring in another group that wasn't mentioned in the article feel free. I don't see that point but that shouldn't stop you.

How about cats killed by teenagers?

748 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 8:56:51pm

re: #745 ShanghaiEd

You've qualified your original statement to the point where I won't argue with you, significantly.

As to Hitler, there's a name for the logical fallacy of saying vegetarians are generally liberal, Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore he was a liberal, but right now I'm blanking out on the name for it.

The "Undistributed Middle" fallacy

Compare:

Great artists often have a lot of women.
I am an artist and I f*ck a lot of women.
------
Therefore, I am a great artist.

(Apologies to Kingsley Amis' "Lucky Jim", from which I stole this exact example. There it is referred to as "You know the fallacy-- Undistributed Whatchamacallit". Same fallacy-- that of the Undistributed Middle.)

749 The Left  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 9:01:20pm

re: #748 iceweasel

To make the example (and the fallacy) clearer I should state Jonah Goldberg's claims in parallel terms:

Liberal are often vegetarian.
Hitler was vegetarian.
---
Therefore Hitler was a liberal.

Again, its the fallacy of the Undistributed Middle-- the middle terms aren't distributed properly.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

750 JeremyR  Tue, Jun 16, 2009 10:22:42pm

Having served many years, I doubt this guy has had much to do with the military in any serious capacity. No SF soldier would want to be called gunny. it is a term exclusive to the Marines, and one of special respect in the Corps.
There is a lot of good natured competition between the services. My family is full of that since we have members who have served in all branches.
When all is said and done though, it may turn out he has served. Military service does not automatically make one honorable. Ther are many who get bad conduct, general and dishonorable discharges every year. A few of the top ones get to spend a little time in Leavenworth or The Brig.
There were honorable men in Germany's army and dishonorable ones in ours. I would still hesitate to use this guy to paint any type of picture of any general group. there may even be a few good men who belong to this group. We will know if they resign and denounce their membership.

751 CEQAttorney  Wed, Jun 17, 2009 2:11:40pm

Once again Charles, you are missing the point of many conservative's objections to the DHS report.

No reasonable person will ever assert there are no "right-wing" extremists who are bent on violence.

The problem with the DHS report was the combination of the purpose for which it was supposed to be used and the lack of any details within the report.

As I stated before, the report was supposed to be an alert for local law enforcement to be on the look out for "right wing" terrorists. However, the descriptors used in the report could easily be applied to most conservatives. So, if local law enforcement were to take the report seriously, they would investigate the local Federalist Society club or the Tea Party organizations.

For the report to be effective, it should have been specific and named specific groups that cause problems. As I noted in a prior post, I could easily have fit the descriptors in the report (dislike of illegal aliens, suspicious of large government, former military, and have several weapons) even though I have never broke a law in my life. Should the local law enforcement waste their time investigating me because I meet the descriptors in the report or actually look for groups that advocate violence?

The existence of an right wing extremist who commits a violent act does not "support" the report. The report was flawed because its analysis was sloppy and poor.

752 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:47:25pm

re: #67 Salamantis

All I have seen on the news was the protesting about who has won the election under the current supreme leader. I have not watched or read about the Iranians wanting to kick out the supreme leader as well until you mention it. [Link: www.frontpagemag.com...] If this is correct, Iran would be alot better than before. I had an Iranian friend in high school. American dad, Iranian mother. They were born in Iran, and moved to US later. He had an older brother and an older sister. They were great people. I hope it works out over there. They would be better off as a more western/modern country. I give how much better Japan, Germany, and Italy have becoming since WW2. The only argument is who has the best soccer or F1 team.


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