A Successful Election in Morocco

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
World • Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 8:41 pm PDT • Views: 202

While the world’s attention is focused on the fallout from Iran’s election, an election in another Muslim country gave reason for hope: A Muslim Nation’s Successful Election.

It is 131 degrees Fahrenheit in Marrakesh, Morocco, yet a slow but steady stream of voters—many of whom are women—enter the schoolyard to cast their ballots at the polling stations for the municipal elections.

On June 12, 2009, 1,503 communities chose their representatives in orderly, transparent elections, according to Ahmed Herzenni, chairman of Morocco’s human rights watchdog, CCDH. His opinion was shared by more than 150 foreign observers, including the International Strategic Studies Association from Washington, D.C., and the New York-based American Center for Democracy (ACD).

Unlike the Soviet-style election in April that led to the reelection of President Abdelaziz Bouteflika in Algeria, Morocco’s eastern neighbor, or the controversial and violent presidential election in Iran, Morocco’s election was “fair and free.”

The meticulously planned and executed election marked an important step in King Mohammed VI’s reform plans to decentralize governance and empower local communities. With 6% economic growth, large investment in education and development, $21.11 billion in foreign debt and $27.29 billion in reserve, Morocco has weathered the global economic storm better than most. In introducing a new form of governance, the king’s reforms are designed to increase the participation of all citizens in political and economic systems.

Morocco’s interior minister, Chakib Benmoussa, an MIT graduate, led the planning, preparing and training of election officials and volunteers. A budget of close to $62 million was allocated to plan, organize and administer the elections. Special efforts were made to include more women in local politics. To overcome the high level of illiteracy and encourage voting, the ballots included pictures of the political parties, which were well advertised in advance.

These efforts yielded impressive results: Local elections attracted 15.4% more voters than the last parliamentary elections, in 2007. More than 7 million voters (52.4%) elected 27,795 council members; 61% of these were newly elected. The number of women elected rose significantly, from 0.4% in the previous local elections in 2003 to 12.3%. Most of these women are under the age of 35, and 75% of them have higher than secondary education.

Also see:
Kuwaiti Women Win Parliamentary Seats

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219 comments

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1 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:45:36pm

I hope the Iranians can one day have such elections.

2 Shug  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:46:22pm

Looks like that Cairo speech worked after all

/

3 descolada9  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:46:51pm

Congrats to the Moroccans! And I am glad to see a Crown ruler decentralizing the government to the people. Just hope that they don't come to abuse the power in the future.

4 livefreeor die  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:47:15pm

Hey, Obama-
these changes are Bush's fault.
Don't forget to mention that at your next presser.

5 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:48:29pm

Okay, I wanna know...
Who forced democracy on the them?

/TOTUS

6 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:49:47pm

With ACORN around, Morocco's elections may be freer than ours.

/not kidding

7 Bob Dillon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:50:37pm

re: #5 jcm

Okay, I wanna know...
Who forced democracy on the them?

/TOTUS

Gen. Patton? ;-)

8 Mich-again  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:51:16pm

I blame George Bush.

9 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:51:17pm

Meanwhile in Iran...

Massive silent protest.

10 horse  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:52:11pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

I hope the Iranians can one day have such elections.

Indeed, it's so nice to see some good news. Maybe a couple more countries making progress to follow in the paths (as imperfect as they have been) of Morocco, Turkey, Kuwait, Iraq, etc... and there can be a critical mass of Islamic countries with at least a foundation of liberty. It is very sad that Pakistan has slid so far so fast though.

11 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:52:14pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

With ACORN around, Morocco's elections may be freer than ours.

/not kidding

Better than for WA's gov in '04 and MN Senator in '08 for sure.

12 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:53:55pm

I always confuse Monaco and Morocco.

I never said I was smart.

13 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:55:02pm

re: #12 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I always confuse Monaco and Morocco.

I never said I was smart.

Monaco fast cars and fast women.

Morocco fast camels, and fast camels.

14 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:55:25pm

re: #11 jcm

Better than for WA's gov in '04 and MN Senator in '08 for sure.

Or any election ever held in Chicago.

15 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:56:29pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

Or any election ever held in Chicago.

Chicago, where everyone can vote early and often including the dead.

What could be more fair?
//

16 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:57:05pm

I would like all GWB detractors to note that every single advance in human rights in the world today is directly traceable to his foreign policies. Of course it will take the passing of a lot of time to surmount the present prejudices.

17 No. Just, no.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:57:38pm

re: #12 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I always confuse Monaco and Morocco.

I never said I was smart.

Easy:

Monaco got Grace Kelly.
Morocco got Humphrey Bogart.

18 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:57:49pm

Made some money today!

19 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:58:27pm

re: #18 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Made some money today!

Knock, knock!

IRS open up!

20 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:58:39pm

re: #17 EmmmieG

Easy:

Monaco got Grace Kelly.
Morocco got Humphrey Bogart.

We should have gone to war over Grace Kelly.

21 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:59:31pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

I hope the Iranians can one day have such elections.

And jeez, they spent so much money on those incorruptible Diebold machines...

///

22 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 8:59:44pm

re: #16 The Shadow Do

I would like all GWB detractors to note that every single advance in human rights in the world today is directly traceable to his foreign policies. Of course it will take the passing of a lot of time to surmount the present prejudices.

Quite a number still don't recognize what RWR accomplished.

23 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:00:00pm

re: #19 jcm

Knock, knock!

IRS open up!

NO HABLA INGLES!

24 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:01:18pm

re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

NO HABLA INGLES!

Well in that case, here's a voter registration card.

25 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:01:32pm

I've met some Moroccans on more than a few occasions- they always seem to me to be very outgoing and friendly.

26 No. Just, no.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:01:49pm

re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

NO HABLA INGLES!

That's okay, they speak Spanish.

(Ellos hablan Espanol. Ellos quieren todos los dineros.)

(Yes, my Spanish is not good.)

27 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:02:14pm

re: #22 jcm

Quite a number still don't recognize what RWR accomplished.

Yup, I hope when I am gone that the truth will find its way into the history books. I suspect it will.

28 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:03:40pm

re: #25 Sharmuta

North African culture is actually quite hospitable. They have a strong tradition of taking in strangers.

29 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:03:50pm

re: #16 The Shadow Do

I would like all GWB detractors to note that every single advance in human rights in the world today is directly traceable to his foreign policies. Of course it will take the passing of a lot of time to surmount the present prejudices.

Ummm...that's a little broad. Any specifics you would like to mention? I mean, saber rattling toward North Korea and Iran has done wonders, has it not? That Axis of Evil thing worked brilliantly, didn't it?

Bless your heart.

30 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:05:32pm

re: #29 austin_blue

Worked a little well until recently.

What may have changed?

31 Yankee Division Son  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:06:38pm

Very good news. Thanks Charles for pointing it our. Also, that headline "Kuwaiti Women Win Parliamentary Seats" elevates my hopes for the middle east exponentially every time I see it..

32 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:07:08pm

re: #29 austin_blue

Yes, too broad. But seriously. Crazy fucking cowboy in the White House wouldn't change someone's idea of "what to do today to eff with America"?

33 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:07:56pm

My grammar gets "less good" after a few beers.

34 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:10:28pm

OT: The State Department official who persuaded twitter to postpone their planned maintenance downtime was a Bush appointee (and not a spy for Cuba). Profile: The Kid at the State Department Who Figured Out the Iranians Should Be Allowed to Keep Tweeting [Link: www.mediabistro.com...]

35 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:12:00pm

re: #34 MrPaulRevere

OT: The State Department official who persuaded twitter to postpone their planned maintenance downtime was a Bush appointee (and not a spy for Cuba). Profile: The Kid at the State Department Who Figured Out the Iranians Should Be Allowed to Keep Tweeting [Link: www.mediabistro.com...]

I knew it! I just knew it was a Haliburton conspiracy! ;)

36 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:12:20pm

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My grammar gets "less good" after a few beers.

Speaking of beer, my should be cold...
Dogfish 90 Minute IPA.

37 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:12:50pm

re: #34 MrPaulRevere

OT: The State Department official who persuaded twitter to postpone their planned maintenance downtime was a Bush appointee (and not a spy for Cuba). Profile: The Kid at the State Department Who Figured Out the Iranians Should Be Allowed to Keep Tweeting [Link: www.mediabistro.com...]

Make that kid SecState.

38 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:13:55pm

re: #35 Sharmuta

His name is Jared Cohen, obviously an AIPAC/neocon stooge //

39 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:14:20pm

Hasn't Morocco traditionally been a fairly open and liberal (by Muslim standards, at least) country with close ties to western europe?

40 livefreeor die  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:14:24pm

re: #37 jcm

Make that kid SecState.

Heck, make him President.

41 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:15:16pm

re: #29 austin_blue

Ummm...that's a little broad. Any specifics you would like to mention? I mean, saber rattling toward North Korea and Iran has done wonders, has it not? That Axis of Evil thing worked brilliantly, didn't it?

Bless your heart.

Wait and watch my friend. That is why I said time must pass -that is how history is made. If you believe that it was a mistake to name the enemy, then you too will ultimately, in all likelihood, become a debunked subscriber to an historical footnote. NK, Iran? They are certainly an axis of evil, only a deep need for denial can refute that.

I take it that you subscribe to the "smart diplomacy" side of the equation, force be damned?

42 No. Just, no.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:15:50pm

re: #34 MrPaulRevere

OT: The State Department official who persuaded twitter to postpone their planned maintenance downtime was a Bush appointee (and not a spy for Cuba). Profile: The Kid at the State Department Who Figured Out the Iranians Should Be Allowed to Keep Tweeting [Link: www.mediabistro.com...]

Sometimes someone just gets it. I just get sad about how often it doesn't happen in our government.

43 livefreeor die  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:17:43pm

re: #42 EmmmieG

Sometimes someone just gets it. I just get sad about how often it doesn't happen in our government.

Well, Obama saved the world from that fly, for pete's sakes.
//

44 pegcity  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:17:45pm

re: #41 The Shadow Do

Wait and watch my friend. That is why I said time must pass -that is how history is made. If you believe that it was a mistake to name the enemy, then you too will ultimately, in all likelihood, become a debunked subscriber to an historical footnote. NK, Iran? They are certainly an axis of evil, only a deep need for denial can refute that.

I take it that you subscribe to the "smart diplomacy" side of the equation, force be damned?

lets build North Korea another nuclear reactor for nothing at all in return, that'll show em Clinton Style

45 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:17:52pm

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My grammar gets "less good" after a few beers.

My grammar is also not so good and speeling often stinks as well sometimes too.

46 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:19:42pm

re: #44 pegcity

lets build North Korea another nuclear reactor for nothing at all in return, that'll show em Clinton Style

Sick, ain't it?

47 pat  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:20:14pm

Morocco is another Muslim hell hole, pretending to be a democracy.

48 livefreeor die  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:20:15pm

Any word yet on whether Mousavi will appear with Khameini at Friday prayers, as ordered by the latter?

49 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:20:58pm

re: #30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Worked a little well until recently.

What may have changed?

It didn't work at all. Until Dinnerjacket's election we had a (what passes for a) reformer in Iran. Now we have a fire breathing Shoah denier who advocates the destruction of Israel and is aggressively pushing the nuclear program. And what can we do? If they develop nuclear capacity (or if we suspect they have it) can we invade? No. They have 80 million people and a western border with Iraq that is one big mountain range, on which they control the high ground. The only flat terrain is around Basra, which is easily plugged.

At a maximum, we could put 200,000 troops into a conventional push into Iran, and we would get waxed over time. Read up on the Iran-Iraq war. That leaves us a single option, which is nuclear. And if we did that before Iran had actually performed an underground test, our foreign oil suppliers (the majority Muslim and that asshole Chavez) would not sell us a single barrel for the foreseeable future and laugh their asses off while our economy grinds to a halt and we starve to death. The Chinese, Indians, and Japanese would be overjoyed to buy that crude at slightly reduced prices to stuff our noses into our own hubris.

So yeah, I'm a little bit peeved about the foreign policy of the previous administration.

50 quickjustice  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:20:59pm

And those Berber women are gorgeous! ;-)

51 livefreeor die  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:21:03pm

re: #47 pat

Morocco is another Muslim hell hole, pretending to be a democracy.

Then it's sort of like Detroit?

52 pat  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:21:58pm

re: #51 livefreeor die

Damn. You hit the nail on the head and hit heart wood.

53 No. Just, no.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:22:00pm

Regarding the fly: I hold it to be a plot to make the right warm up to him. Ticking off PETA (over something stupid) can't be all that bad.

//

54 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:22:16pm

More OT: I'm listening to a replay of today's Glen Beck radio show, and he's calling Billy Joel a pervert. Yesterday he went on a bizarre rant about how Barry Manilow is gay. Words fail me...

55 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:22:33pm

re: #47 pat

Morocco is another Muslim hell hole, pretending to be a democracy.

They're working on it, elections are one piece.

56 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:22:55pm

re: #50 quickjustice

I didn't know you liked Berbershop Quartets...

57 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:23:14pm

re: #49 austin_blue


At a maximum, we could put 200,000 troops into a conventional push into Iran, and we would get waxed over time. Read up on the Iran-Iraq war. That leaves us a single option, which is nuclear


Horse hockey.

58 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:23:30pm

re: #54 MrPaulRevere

More OT: I'm listening to a replay of today's Glen Beck radio show, and he's calling Billy Joel a pervert. Yesterday he went on a bizarre rant about how Barry Manilow is gay. Words fail me...

It must be nice having lived such perfection that you can so easily cast stones at others.

59 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:23:33pm

re: #54 MrPaulRevere

More OT: I'm listening to a replay of today's Glen Beck radio show, and he's calling Billy Joel a pervert. Yesterday he went on a bizarre rant about how Barry Manilow is gay. Words fail me...

60 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:25:12pm

But...what does Kilgore have to say about it?

61 pegcity  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:25:13pm

re: #46 The Shadow Do

Sick, ain't it?

reminds me of Skynet in terminator

62 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:26:16pm

re: #49 austin_blue

What is your opinion of Obama's "plan" for Iran?

63 pat  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:26:17pm

re: #55 jcm

See link above. Morocco had almost a million Christians and Jews (combined) a mere generation ago. They are now engaged in the extermination of Berbers now that they have killed all the Jews and Christians. When only cultists can vote, the outcome is likely to be unpleasant. Living in one of these countries is like being in Mississippi in 1879.

64 livefreeor die  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:26:55pm

Night all. I must sleep so as to be able to face another day as the mother of a six month old who does not like to sleep during the day.

65 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:27:09pm

re: #58 Sharmuta

I can't really say what I think of Glen Beck without getting a deletion. Sick, twisted freak indeed.

66 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:29:55pm

re: #64 livefreeor die

Night all. I must sleep so as to be able to face another day as the mother of a six month old who does not like to sleep during the day.

Get your sleep while you can! Good luck!

67 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:30:04pm

re: #57 The Shadow Do

Horse hockey.

Sorry, my man, but it's the truth. The Iranians had no problems with 10:1 casualty ratios against the superior arms of the Iraqis. (We helped arm them!). They knew they had the numbers. If they lost 2,000,000 men to destroy our 200,00, they would *celebrate* that victory. These are Persians we are talking about. Stout bastards. Take a look at those kids on the streets and tell me they aren't.

68 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:30:29pm

Wonderful news about Morocco and Kuwait as well. Thanks for posting. I had missed the Kuwait article while on vacation.

How are all of the lizards tonight?

69 pegcity  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:31:13pm

re: #68 Pvt Bin Jammin

Wonderful news about Morocco and Kuwait as well. Thanks for posting. I had missed the Kuwait article while on vacation.

How are all of the lizards tonight?

happy its summer

70 Ms. MacIceweasel  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:31:39pm

re: #49 austin_blue


At a maximum, we could put 200,000 troops into a conventional push into Iran, and we would get waxed over time.

Not to mention that we can't even do that now; our forces are already deployed to maximum capacity elsewhere and many are already serving multiple tours.

71 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:32:10pm

re: #67 austin_blue

Sorry, my man, but it's the truth. The Iranians had no problems with 10:1 casualty ratios against the superior arms of the Iraqis. (We helped arm them!). They knew they had the numbers. If they lost 2,000,000 men to destroy our 200,00, they would *celebrate* that victory. These are Persians we are talking about. Stout bastards. Take a look at those kids on the streets and tell me they aren't.

Then we kill them in greater than 10-1 ratios. Cluster bombs, Fuel-Air bombs, whatever it takes.

72 pegcity  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:32:16pm

re: #70 iceweasel

that's why we need an all robot army, er wait

73 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:32:17pm

re: #63 pat

See link above. Morocco had almost a million Christians and Jews (combined) a mere generation ago. They are now engaged in the extermination of Berbers now that they have killed all the Jews and Christians. When only cultists can vote, the outcome is likely to be unpleasant. Living in one of these countries is like being in Mississippi in 1879.

Are they beginning the climb out, or continuing down.

No doubt they the last decades have been horrific, and it is and will be far from perfect, they have to start and build on something.

It's a Chomsky view of the world not to acknowledge the positive steps.

74 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:32:36pm

re: #67 austin_blue

They also had a unified populace to work with back then. Does Iran look all that unified this week?

75 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:33:21pm

re: #69 pegcity

happy its summer

You must live where the winters are cold. I'm not totally excited about summer here in So Cal but sure am glad to see the sun. We had over two weeks of cloudy weather.

76 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:34:47pm

re: #49 austin_blue

Really? You don't think we'd respond to being shut off by the rest of the world for oil? You think we're cattle? "Gates are closed, food provider is gone. Let's just lay down and die."

Ever heard or America?

You don't think we'd find a solution?

Of course you don't think so.

You are an intellectual.

Thank goodness for intellectuals.

77 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:35:09pm

re: #60 Desert Dog

Heh.

78 schnapp  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:35:18pm

re: #67 austin_blue

Sorry, my man, but it's the truth. The Iranians had no problems with 10:1 casualty ratios against the superior arms of the Iraqis. (We helped arm them!).


We overthrew Saddam and now Iraq is on its way to democracy. Why can't they and all the other Arab countries which get US taxpayers' money and give nothing in return help overthrow Iran?

79 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:35:19pm

re: #75 Pvt Bin Jammin

Global warming! You can make those clouds go away by waiting a few more days paying into Al Gore's carbon offset fund!

80 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:37:15pm

re: #62 Desert Dog

What is your opinion of Obama's "plan" for Iran?

I think keeping our collective mouths shut to prevent the Mullah propaganda machine from blaming us for the unrest is wise. This is *their* fight, not ours. Sometimes we just have to step back and watch what happens. Even if the regime prevails, I think it will be largely weakened by the brutality of the response to largely peaceful protest. This is are: #71 Dark_Falcon

Then we kill them in greater than 10-1 ratios. Cluster bombs, Fuel-Air bombs, whatever it takes.

Montgomery, Alabama moment for Iran. The response is out of scale and the people will not stand for it over time.

81 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:39:01pm

re: #60 Desert Dog

Also see: Captain Killgore
/I love the smell of napalm in the morning, It smells like ...Ron Paul

82 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:39:15pm

re: #49 austin_blue

But, I up-dinged you.

You called Chavez an asshole.

83 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:39:26pm

re: #67 austin_blue

Sorry, my man, but it's the truth. The Iranians had no problems with 10:1 casualty ratios against the superior arms of the Iraqis. (We helped arm them!). They knew they had the numbers. If they lost 2,000,000 men to destroy our 200,00, they would *celebrate* that victory. These are Persians we are talking about. Stout bastards. Take a look at those kids on the streets and tell me they aren't.

Are you truly trying to make the point that Iran cannot be confronted because they will deploy lots of people/kids in some sort of invasion of, I dunno...just where? San Francisco maybe?

Fear the Persian?

What the hell else are you afraid of, your shadow?

84 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:40:44pm

re: #79 Fenway_Nation

Global warming! You can make those clouds go away by waiting a few more days paying into Al Gore's carbon offset fund!

We finally got sun today. If I'm lucky I won't have to pay into the carbon credit fund until next year. ;-)

85 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:40:47pm

re: #82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BTW, has the YoQuieroCokeCero.com (or .ve) domain name been claimed?

86 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:41:01pm

Poop on it.

G'night Erin!

87 No. Just, no.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:41:05pm

re: #83 The Shadow Do

Are you truly trying to make the point that Iran cannot be confronted because they will deploy lots of people/kids in some sort of invasion of, I dunno...just where? San Francisco maybe?

Fear the Persian?

What the hell else are you afraid of, your shadow?

I don't know about fearing the Persian, but I'm getting a little afraid of their wives and daughters.

88 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:41:13pm

re: #12 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I always confuse Monaco and Morocco.

I never said I was smart.

Worsely, I confuse Monaco, Morocco, and maracas.

89 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:41:38pm

re: #80 austin_blue

Montgomery, Alabama moment for Iran. The response is out of scale and the people will not stand for it over time.

There won't be much time. The Iranians would suffer such loses as to either give up or be annihilated. If nukes are needed to prevent us from getting nuked, then I favor their use.

90 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:42:11pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Then we kill them in greater than 10-1 ratios. Cluster bombs, Fuel-Air bombs, whatever it takes.

You aren't a military guy, are you? Except for the Basra plain, the western border of Iran is 8-12,000 foot mountains crossed by improved goat paths. The munitions you mention are great against massed troops, but they suck against hidden small squads. There is no way a conventional attack by what is available of the US military against Iran could succeed. Period. Full stop.

91 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:42:54pm

re: #87 EmmmieG

I don't know about fearing the Persian, but I'm getting a little afraid of their wives and daughters.


And well you should!

92 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:43:25pm

re: #67 austin_blue

Sorry, my man, but it's the truth. The Iranians had no problems with 10:1 casualty ratios against the superior arms of the Iraqis. (We helped arm them!). They knew they had the numbers. If they lost 2,000,000 men to destroy our 200,00, they would *celebrate* that victory. These are Persians we are talking about. Stout bastards. Take a look at those kids on the streets and tell me they aren't.

In a toe to toe conventional war, we would cut their army to ribbons. Their "elite" units are not as good as any of ours. The main part of their army is ill-trained and ill-equipped. Their tanks, aircraft and tactics are no match for ours. After blowing up whatever air force they may try to throw at us and sinking the vast majority of the navy, the only area they could give us some trouble is in missiles...land to air, and land to sea. If they are actually stupid enough to mass their troops, they would learn quite quickly just how accurate our bombs and missiles are. It would not be their conventional military we would have trouble with. It would be holding whatever land we would take. The Iranians know asymmetrical warfare is the only way to counter the massive edge the US would have in technology, weaponry, and soldiers abilities. But, we could partially counter that with a massive psyops operation, telling the Iranian people we are not after them, it is the mullahs and the Revolutionary Guards we want to demolish.

STILL, we are not prepared for that kind of war and they know it. Under Bush, they may have feared that, a little. But, as long as we had Defeatocrats spouting off in Congress and a MSM geared up to discredit any Bush policy successes, it was not going to happen. Under Obama? Please...swatting a fly is about as far as he will go.

93 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:44:03pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Also see: Captain Killgore
/I love the smell of napalm in the morning, It smells like ...Ron Paul

I prefer Killgore Trout, then Capt. Killgore :-)

94 Racer X  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:44:09pm
95 Long Nics are Looonnng  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:44:20pm

re: #92 Desert Dog

OMG! ding.

96 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:45:50pm

re: #93 Desert Dog

Me too...
Killgore Fishing Adventures
Eat 'em up, yum.

97 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:45:55pm

re: #80 austin_blue

Montgomery, Alabama moment for Iran. The response is out of scale and the people will not stand for it over time.

I think missing an opportunity to get rid of those turbaned MF's is a mistake. They think so low of Obama now, what does he have to lose? They will stop cooperating in the negotiations? They are not cooperating now. Obama should be stoking that fire over there like crazy.

98 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:46:56pm

re: #92 Desert Dog

I could see China voting against a UN Security Council resolution calling for any military force to be used against Iran. China will insist overwhelming military force should be used only against unarmed college kids in a public square...

99 Racer X  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:47:05pm

re: #96 Killgore Trout

Haz me sum fish envy.

100 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:47:51pm

re: #83 The Shadow Do

Are you truly trying to make the point that Iran cannot be confronted because they will deploy lots of people/kids in some sort of invasion of, I dunno...just where? San Francisco maybe?

Fear the Persian?

What the hell else are you afraid of, your shadow?

Dude, that was one of the oddest non sequiter responses I have ever read in my life. The Iranians have no interest in us. They really don't. All they are concerned about is the power and the glory of history. They see themselves as once forever a Great People. They want to control the Mideast, not us in the west.

101 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:48:42pm

re: #98 Fenway_Nation

I could see China voting against a UN Security Council resolution calling for any military force to be used against Iran. China will insist overwhelming military force should be used only against unarmed college kids in a public square...

As much as I would like to see the mullahs gone, it will not be from the US Military taking over. It should come from the people of Iran...you know, when they rise up and topple the corrupt assholes running the place now.

I sure wish we had an opportunity like that...don;t you?

102 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:49:33pm

Kilgore Adventures dot com.

I think that's pretty funny.

103 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:49:48pm

re: #90 austin_blue

You aren't a military guy, are you? Except for the Basra plain, the western border of Iran is 8-12,000 foot mountains crossed by improved goat paths. The munitions you mention are great against massed troops, but they suck against hidden small squads. There is no way a conventional attack by what is available of the US military against Iran could succeed. Period. Full stop.

It could work. First, build up a force of sympathizers and exiles and make it clear we support a free and democratic Iran. Second, round up all the trouble makers straightaway. We should have enough friendlies and Intel to find those people whom insurgents might cluster around. Anyone on the list goes to gallows and their families go behind razor wire.

104 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:50:16pm

Oh shit...I forgot to attribute my smarmy swipe at the ChiComs to a 17-year old Weekend Update joke from Dennis Miller.

105 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:51:29pm

Morocco is back on the right road!

106 Sharmuta  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:52:18pm

Kilgore Adventures promotes Hell's Canyon

See where his atheism has gotten him? ///

107 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:52:30pm

re: #92 Desert Dog

108 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:56:56pm

re: #100 austin_blue

Dude, that was one of the oddest non sequiter responses I have ever read in my life. The Iranians have no interest in us. They really don't. All they are concerned about is the power and the glory of history. They see themselves as once forever a Great People. They want to control the Mideast, not us in the west.

Of course! You did not recognize sarcasm? No matter. But...The implicit question stands, why do you fear confrontation with the Iranians? Why do you think we should not challenge them? Do you evidently advocate retreat by Western nations from the ME? Are you OK with the threat to Israel?

109 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:58:35pm

BTW, I don't want a major war with Iran. The question we need to ask is:

How do we avoid it and keep them from getting nukes?

110 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:01:56pm
111 Flyers1974  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:52pm

re: #78 schnapp

We overthrew Saddam and now Iraq is on its way to democracy. Why can't they and all the other Arab countries which get US taxpayers' money and give nothing in return help overthrow Iran?

Which Arab countries? My guess is that more Egyptians than not, hate their own government. I don't know if they have any love for Iranians, but hard for me to see how the military would be motivated to fight against them. I'd think Iraqi's would be in no mood to fight considering recent history, moral obligations notwithstanding. Saudi Arabia perhaps, I think they have been and are afraid of Iran. I don't know if they'd be willing to take risks though. They don't seem the type of regime who'd do anything for the greater good, in my opinion.

112 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:05:09pm

re: #110 buzzsawmonkey

I don't want "a major war" with Iran either. But it would be refreshing if people remembered that regardless of what we want, they have been at war with us for 30 years.

Our pretending that this isn't true, and acting like we "want to avoid war with them," makes us look like feckless fools to their leaders. We'd do a lot better if we said that either they abandon their nuke program right now and open all their facilities to inspection or face a thirty-year-late bombing.

Sorry if that sounds brutal. But we can beat up our gums from here to doomsday and it won't do the slightest bit of good.

It is brutal. But wars are always brutal. I agree with you.

113 schnapp  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:06:16pm

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

BTW, I don't want a major war with Iran. The question we need to ask is:

How do we avoid it and keep them from getting nukes?

Strong backbone and force if necessary.

114 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:06:53pm

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

The only way to short circuit their program is war. It's just a question of degree and who decides to play. It starts with an embargo and ends with a lot of ordnance flying about.

Or we wring our hands and back away which seems the most likely outcome given the "present" admin.

Iran will have nukes and it will be the fault of George Bush. He called them out as bad guys so we had it coming.

115 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:07:06pm

re: #100 austin_blue

Try reading these posts by Winston06...he is an Iranian dissident, living in Canada, who has family in Iran...you are so shallow that it is pathetic.

Almost all of us are praying that Iran wins back its' freedom from the Mullahs, and becomes a Republic.

On Twitter, quite a few of us list Tehran as our home, both in support for Iran and to confuse those in Iran who try to take down Twitter.

Do you have a heart?

116 schnapp  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:36pm

re: #113 schnapp

It was no coincident that Iran released the 52 hostages that had been held for 444 days just after Reagen was sworn in.

117 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:44pm

re: #110 buzzsawmonkey

I don't want "a major war" with Iran either. But it would be refreshing if people remembered that regardless of what we want, they have been at war with us for 30 years.

Our pretending that this isn't true, and acting like we "want to avoid war with them," makes us look like feckless fools to their leaders. We'd do a lot better if we said that either they abandon their nuke program right now and open all their facilities to inspection or face a thirty-year-late bombing.

Sorry if that sounds brutal. But we can beat up our gums from here to doomsday and it won't do the slightest bit of good.

So, given that that a conventional intervention would more than likely be futile against a country almost the size of the US east of the Mississippi and iron bombs would not necessarily take out their facilities...


Are you advocating the nuclear option?

118 Racer X  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:13pm

Prison v Work...

@ PRISON You spend most of your time in a 10X10 cell
@ WORK You spend most of your time in 6X6 cubicle

@ PRISON You get three fully paid for meals a day
@ WORK You get a break for one meal, and you have to pay for it

@ PRISON For good behaviour, you get time off
@ WORK For good behaviour, you get more work

@ PRISON The guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you
@ WORK You must carry a security card and open all the doors yourself

@ PRISON You can watch TV and play games
@ WORK You could get fired for watching TV and playing games

@ PRISON You get your own toilet
@ WORK You have to share the toilet with people who pee on the seat

@ PRISON They allow your family and friends to visit
@ WORK You aren’t even supposed to speak to your family

@ PRISON All expenses are paid by the taxpayers with no work required on your part
@ WORK You must pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners

@ PRISON You spend most of your life inside bars wanting to get out
@ WORK You spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars

@ PRISON You must deal with sadistic wardens
@ WORK They are called ‘managers’

119 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:11:12pm

re: #88 ShanghaiEd

Worsely, I confuse Monaco, Morocco, and maracas.

Not to mention Mo Rocca.

120 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:11:37pm

re: #117 austin_blue

So, given that that a conventional intervention would more than likely be futile against a country almost the size of the US east of the Mississippi and iron bombs would not necessarily take out their facilities...

Are you advocating the nuclear option?

I can't speak for him, but if that is the only way, then yes, I would favor the nuclear options. We would be hated, but also feared.

121 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:11:54pm

re: #115 NY Nana

Try reading these posts by Winston06...he is an Iranian dissident, living in Canada, who has family in Iran...you are so shallow that it is pathetic.

Almost all of us are praying that Iran wins back its' freedom from the Mullahs, and becomes a Republic.

On Twitter, quite a few of us list Tehran as our home, both in support for Iran and to confuse those in Iran who try to take down Twitter.

Do you have a heart?

Of *course* I do! I just don't think that we can help them. This is an Iranian situation that must be worked out by Iranis. These are very proud people. Any intervention would be condescending and counterproductive. This, fundamentally, is not about us and all about them.

122 J.D.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:20pm

Murder of U.S. Airmen at Khobar Towers: Iran Did it [Andy McCarthy]

This is old news to those who followed the 9/11 Commission report and Iran's historic record as the world's number one state sponsor of terrorism — particularly, anti-U.S. terrorism. (I recently detailed it, here.) But now, a federal judge has ruled that Iran was responsible for the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in which 19 American Air Force personnel were killed and 372 wounded.The AP reports:
The Iranian government is partly to blame for a 1996 terrorist attack that killed 19 Americans in Saudi Arabia, a federal judge ruled Friday. The ruling by U.S. District Judge Royce C. Lamberth allows the families of the victims of the Khobar Towers bombing to seek $254 million in compensation from the conservative Islamic regime in Tehran.
Though intelligence officials have suspected a link between the Tehran government and the Saudi wing of Hezbollah, which the FBI has accused of carrying out the bombing, Friday's ruling is the first time a branch of the U.S. government has officially blamed Iran for the deaths of Americans in the bombings. "This court takes note of plaintiffs' courage and steadfastness in pursuing this litigation and their efforts to take action to deter more tragic suffering of innocent Americans at the hands of terrorists," Lamberth wrote. "Their efforts are to be commended."
Lamberth relied heavily on testimony by former FBI Director Louis Freeh, who investigated the bombings. Two Iranian government security agencies and senior members of the Iranian government itself provided funding, training and logistical help to terrorists who carried out the attack on a dormitory that housed U.S. Air Force pilots and staff in Saudi Arabia, Freeh testified.
Lamberth had previously ruled that a survivor of the blast could seek compensation from Iran but Friday's ruling is the first time a court has said Iran was to blame for the deaths. The lawsuit was brought by the families of 17 of the 19 people killed in the attack.

The AP's assertion that this marks the "first time a branch of the U.S. government has officially blamed Iran for the deaths of Americans" at Khobar is not accurate. The indictment filed by the Justice Department in 2001, though it does not name specific Iranian officials, alleges Iranian direction of, and logistical support for, the attack — and notes that conspirators stated that the purpose of the attack was to strike the United States on behalf of Iran.

Furthermore, just this May, in a speech at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Under Secretary of State R. Nicholas Burns said (italics mine):

I would also like to say that we as a country cannot forget one of the other major grievances that we have with Iran, and that is the terrorism issue. We do not forget what happened in Beirut to our embassy and to our Marine barracks in 1983, or to Colonel Higgins, who was serving with the UN forces in southern Lebanon in 1985. And we certainly do not forget, and I believe [Ambassador] Dennis [Ross] and I were together that day, what happened at Khobar Towers outside of Dhahran, because we were there just several hours after the blast with Secretary [Warreb] Christopher and saw what happened to over 30 Americans who were killed and to 300 American military officers who ended up in the hospital.


This echoed what State Department Counselor Philip Zelikow had said more forcefully only the week before:

During the 1990s, Iran aided terrorist groups that were targeting Americans, Israelis, and Saudis. Agents of the Iranian government were involved in the attack on the U.S. Air Force barracks at Khobar Towers, in Saudi Arabia, in 1996. ...

123 Racer X  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:38pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

Diplomacy.
Everyone listens to the man with a bloody axe. You may have to swing it around a bit first.

124 schnapp  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:49pm

re: #111 Flyers1974

Which Arab countries? My guess is that more Egyptians than not, hate their own government. I don't know if they have any love for Iranians, but hard for me to see how the military would be motivated to fight against them. I'd think Iraqi's would be in no mood to fight considering recent history, moral obligations notwithstanding. Saudi Arabia perhaps, I think they have been and are afraid of Iran. I don't know if they'd be willing to take risks though. They don't seem the type of regime who'd do anything for the greater good, in my opinion.

The US taxpayer gives the Saudis billions in aid each year. If the US wanted to eliminate a threat in the region it shouldn't be too much to ask for some military support.
Whether they do or not is another matter. But they should help the US in its national security interests or stop receiving American taxpayer "aid".

125 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:51pm

"Iraq has the 4th largest army in the world and 4,000 T72 tanks. They're battle hardened after 8 years of war with Iran and have chemical weapons. The Republican Guard is their elite force..."

1991

126 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:53pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

I can't speak for him, but if that is the only way, then yes, I would favor the nuclear options. We would be hated, but also feared.

We would not be sold any more *oil*, you naive man.

Take that into consideration.

127 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:14:17pm

re: #116 schnapp

It was no coincident that Iran released the 52 hostages that had been held for 444 days just after Reagen was sworn in.

You don't believe in the arms-swap deal theory, I take it?

128 Racer X  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:15:21pm

How many U.S. servicemen died in Iraq at the hands of Iranians and Iranian made IEDs?

130 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:17:03pm

re: #123 Racer X

Everyone listens to the man with a bloody axe.

Nom for rotating title?

131 itellu3times  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:17:26pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

I can't speak for him, but if that is the only way, then yes, I would favor the nuclear options. We would be hated, but also feared.

Well, WHAT nuclear option is that? Fifteen hardened military nuclear sites? Downtown Tehran?

Anyway, nuking someone to keep them from getting nukes, I think we'd all die of the irony.

132 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:18:06pm

re: #126 austin_blue

We would not be sold any more *oil*, you naive man.

Take that into consideration.

Iran is not in the top 15 of oil suppliers to the US.

[Link: www.eia.doe.gov...]

133 Flyers1974  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:18:08pm

re: #124 schnapp

The US taxpayer gives the Saudis billions in aid each year. If the US wanted to eliminate a threat in the region it shouldn't be too much to ask for some military support.
Whether they do or not is another matter. But they should help the US in its national security interests or stop receiving American taxpayer "aid".

Hard to argue with this. Maybe someone else here knows better than I, but I'd think the reason for that US aid is mainly to help Saudi defend itself against Iran. Formerly Iran and Iraq I should say.

134 solomonpanting  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:18:59pm

re: #126 austin_blue

We would not be sold any more *oil*, you naive man.

Take that into consideration.

How much oil does the US import from Iran?

135 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:19:07pm

re: #126 austin_blue

We would not be sold any more *oil*, you naive man.

Take that into consideration.

Then we'll live with fewer cars. I'd rather suffer a major depression than lose a city to a nuke. OPEC would choke not selling to use before we will. And I'd start getting more US oil online before I pushed the button. I'm not naive and I've been thinking about this for awhile now.

136 J.D.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:20:10pm

re: #134 solomonpanting

How much oil does the US import from Iran?

*crickets*

137 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:20:42pm

re: #121 austin_blue

Of *course* I do! I just don't think that we can help them. This is an Iranian situation that must be worked out by Iranis. These are very proud people. Any intervention would be condescending and counterproductive. This, fundamentally, is not about us and all about them.

Yes, it is all up to the Iranians. But don't you think encouragement from the "Free World" to take back what is rightfully theirs is a good idea? Obama is not saying much at all...like he does not know what to say...it is pathetic...He cannot sit on the fence and hope everyone loves him all the time. Sometimes, like NOW, he has to make a stand. Right now, he is coming across as a weakling. If the Mullahs crush this resistance, what leverage will Obama possess by his current stance? NONE...NADA...NOTHING. The current leadership of Iran is not reasonable and they are NOT impressed with President Hopenchange.

138 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:23:00pm

re: #134 solomonpanting

How much oil does the US import from Iran?

U.S. Oil Imports by country, 2008:

[Link: perotcharts.com...]

139 J.D.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:23:41pm
...The Clinton administration obstructed the FBI's investigation of Khobar because highlighting Iran's complicity in the murder of 19 members of our Air Force would have been inconvenient for its overtures to "reformer" Khatami (while the real power, the mullahs, happily plowed full speed ahead — death to America style — building their nukes and abetting our enemies). The Bush administration was flat incoherent, with the president correctly calling Iran an implacable terrorist regime while his State Department treated them like they were any rational government — eschewing sticks and continuing to entice them with more carrots every time they mocked the last batch of goodies.

Perhaps the worst part of all this was allowing the antiwar (and, specifically, antiwar in Iraq) crowd, aided by our foreign-policy gurus, to equate regime change with invasion in the public mind. Regime change in Iraq became the official policy of the U.S. in the late 1990s, years before the invastion of Iraq. We could have and should have made regime change in Iran official American policy long before that — certainly by 1996. Had we done that, we could have had a clear policy, denied the mullahs legitimacy in every particular, squeezed them in every way (particularly economically), sanctioned governments that continued to deal with them, supported the dissidents, and attacked them militarily (with or without a full-scale invasion) when they sponsored terrorist camps, supported and harbored al-Qaeda, killed Americans in Iraq, and built their nukes...


To Meddle or Not to Meddle

140 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:23:56pm

re: #134 solomonpanting

How much oil does the US import from Iran?

I think it's somewhere between -1 and 1 barrel, and there are only integers on this scale.

141 solomonpanting  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:25:19pm

re: #138 Pvt Bin Jammin

U.S. Oil Imports by country, 2008:

[Link: perotcharts.com...]

Thank you. I imagine there may be someone still searching for the number.

142 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:25:55pm

re: #139 J.D.

McCarthy hit that one pure.

143 Racer X  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:26:17pm

Amazing choir (Perpetuum Jazzile) uses there hands to stimulate storm

Turn it up really loud.

(wait for the thunder!)

144 J.D.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:26:41pm

re: #142 BigPapa

McCarthy hit that one pure.

Indeed he did.

He usually does.

145 J.D.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:27:40pm

Nite.

146 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:27:43pm

Fascinating...ANCIENT DROUGHT AND RAPID COOLING DRASTICALLY ALTERED CLIMATE [Link: researchnews.osu.edu...]

147 solomonpanting  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:28:20pm

re: #145 J.D.

Sleep well.

148 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:29:35pm

We do not get much oil from Iran...but Europe does and so does China and Japan. The Iranians could wreck havoc on the supply of oil in the world by blocking or choking off the Strait of Hormuz. If Iran is not selling oil, Europe, China, et all will be looking to buy elsewhere...from the people we buy from. We are all connected in this oil lifeline...unfortunately, most of the world's oil is in the hands of assholes that do not really care for Americans.

149 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:29:58pm

re: #132 BigPapa

Iran is not in the top 15 of oil suppliers to the US.

[Link: www.eia.doe.gov...]

If we nuked Iran before a nuclear test, the entire ME would cut us off. And that asshole Chavez would too (that's every Citgo station in the US). We import over 60% of our oil from outside the US. Mexico's production is crashing and Canada can't make up the shortfall. You like the idea of $12.00 gasoline? Strap in, baby.

150 Floral Giraffe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:30:11pm

re: #68 Pvt Bin Jammin

Hi PBJ! Excellent here on the left coast. How was vaca?

151 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:32:24pm

I have no idea why 'austin_blue', and others for that matter, feel the need to give cover to Iranian (or other) authoritarian regimes.

My take is that it is not political, but personal. Imagine if we could all just get along and so on and so forth...

152 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:33:47pm

re: #150 Floral Giraffe

Vacation was last month (which is why I missed the Kuwait article) but it was excellent. Just went to northern Nevada to visit family and friends but enjoyed it to the max. Thanks.

153 Floral Giraffe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:33:54pm

re: #96 Killgore Trout

Me too...
Killgore Fishing Adventures
Eat 'em up, yum.

LOL!
Eat 'em up, yum!
DING DING DING!

154 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:05pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

Obama is a craven coward, and Israel will have to do to Iran what it did to Iraq...but if Iran becomes a democracy? I would like to think that there would be a much better chance that Iran would be honest, and join the civilized world re nuclear capability.

Remember that Iranians are not arabs..Iranians are a cultured society, that when the Shah was alive, women had equality. Now? The Mullahs have taken them back to the Dark Ages...but the younger Iranians want to be free, and they have been amazing in their courage against a despotic regime. They are quite technically savvy, and any Iranians I have met over the years are lovely people. Great Neck, NY, on LI, has the second largest Iranian Jewish population outside of Iran, while the greater LA area has the largest. They love Iran, and I would bet that quite a few would return to a free Iran.

I think that at this point we can actually hope to see a free Iran sooner rather than later.

No doubt that there is a faction of Al- Qaeda within Iran, but I do not think that they will get very far.

155 Desert Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:44pm

re: #149 austin_blue

If we nuked Iran before a nuclear test, the entire ME would cut us off. And that asshole Chavez would too (that's every Citgo station in the US). We import over 60% of our oil from outside the US. Mexico's production is crashing and Canada can't make up the shortfall. You like the idea of $12.00 gasoline? Strap in, baby.

We could also just take that oil if it comes to that. Who would stop us? The might Saudi Army? The Illustrious Venezuelan Air Force? But, you are right about the nuking business. That would not be a good choice...even a tactical strike would be the worst thing we have ever done. Unless we or our allies are threatened with a massive attack a la the Norks heading south or Iranians rushing towards Saudi or Israel...then, we might have to resort to that type of weapon.

156 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:48pm

re: #149 austin_blue

OK, so you're saying that any attack on Iran would dramatically affect the price of oil. But of course. Current events in Iran are affecting the price of oil.

I'm also reading that attacking/hard assing Iran is a bad idea, difficult, not wise, whatever. Please clarify the term and your point.

157 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:50pm

re: #137 Desert Dog

Yes, it is all up to the Iranians. But don't you think encouragement from the "Free World" to take back what is rightfully theirs is a good idea? Obama is not saying much at all...like he does not know what to say...it is pathetic...He cannot sit on the fence and hope everyone loves him all the time. Sometimes, like NOW, he has to make a stand. Right now, he is coming across as a weakling. If the Mullahs crush this resistance, what leverage will Obama possess by his current stance? NONE...NADA...NOTHING. The current leadership of Iran is not reasonable and they are NOT impressed with President Hopenchange.

The US taking any position on the Iranian elections would be the single most counter-productive thing we could do. Again, this an Iranian, not an American situation. If we say the election was bogus, we are playing into the propagandists hands. We become the "outside agitators" that give legitimacy to the existing regime. Let the kids on the street do their work. It is their country.

158 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:37:18pm

re: #151 The Shadow Do

I have no idea why 'austin_blue', and others for that matter, feel the need to give cover to Iranian (or other) authoritarian regimes.

My take is that it is not political, but personal. Imagine if we could all just get along and so on and so forth...

No. I think we should reasonably keep our noses out of situations where we can do no appreciable good. This is not our fight.

159 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:52pm

re: #154 NY Nana

Obama is a craven coward, and Israel will have to do to Iran what it did to Iraq...but if Iran becomes a democracy? I would like to think that there would be a much better chance that Iran would be honest, and join the civilized world re nuclear capability.

Remember that Iranians are not arabs..Iranians are a cultured society, that when the Shah was alive, women had equality. Now? The Mullahs have taken them back to the Dark Ages...but the younger Iranians want to be free, and they have been amazing in their courage against a despotic regime. They are quite technically savvy, and any Iranians I have met over the years are lovely people. Great Neck, NY, on LI, has the second largest Iranian Jewish population outside of Iran, while the greater LA area has the largest. They love Iran, and I would bet that quite a few would return to a free Iran.

I think that at this point we can actually hope to see a free Iran sooner rather than later.

No doubt that there is a faction of Al- Qaeda within Iran, but I do not think that they will get very far.

From your lips to God's ears.

160 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:05pm

re: #158 austin_blue

No. I think we should reasonably keep our noses out of situations where we can do no appreciable good. This is not our fight.

Are you serious?

Don't know about you, but I definitely got a dog in this hunt.

161 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:11pm

re: #154 NY Nana


No doubt that there is a faction of Al- Qaeda within Iran, but I do not think that they will get very far.

Al Queda is a Sunni cult group. They hate the Shiaa of Iran with a bright burning hatred.

162 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:34pm

re: #151 The Shadow Do

I have no idea why 'austin_blue', and others for that matter, feel the need to give cover to Iranian (or other) authoritarian regimes.

My take is that it is not political, but personal. Imagine if we could all just get along and so on and so forth...

IMO, I don't see Austin or anyone "giving cover" to any regime. They're just point out that a military option always has unintended consequences, as we've seen in recent years. To me, any high hopes for changing regimes through pre-emptive bombing is even more idealistic/personal than the opposite. Just my two cents.

163 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:43:17pm

It seems to me that Obama (and Kerry) think diplomacy is the being nice, open, showing the open fist.

Likewise, the alternate to that is not just firing off a nuke, out of the blue.

Diplomacy is not being conciliatory, but it seems that Obama and his acolytes have made that mistake. Talk softly but carry a big stick, anyone?

164 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:45:30pm

re: #163 BigPapa

It seems to me that Obama (and Kerry) think diplomacy is the being nice, open, showing the open fist.

Likewise, the alternate to that is not just firing off a nuke, out of the blue.

Diplomacy is not being conciliatory, but it seems that Obama and his acolytes have made that mistake. Talk softly but carry a big stick, anyone?

Not a lesson Obama will ever learn. TR was a man, Obama is just a little boy.

165 Macker  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:47:44pm

re: #65 MrPaulRevere

I can't really say what I think of Glen Beck without getting a deletion. Sick, twisted freak indeed.

Then simply write this instead:

[deleted]

166 Floral Giraffe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:47:50pm

WAY OT:
Huntington Botanic Garden's "son of stinky" is now open!
(Amorphophalus titan arum)

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

167 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:47:52pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Not a lesson Obama will ever learn. TR was a man, Obama is just a little boy community organizer.

FIFY!

168 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:48:18pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

I just feel that the courage the Iranians have shown, even though they were and still are putting themselves in danger of being killed, indicates a desire for true democracy that there is no going back.

And by Obama hiding under the bed? He will rue the day when Iran is free, as he will see the Iranians spit in his face.

I think that the Iranians who are fighting so hard now to be free realize that most Americans are on their side, and are praying for them...

Bottom line? I would very much like to Reza Pahlevi,(hat tip Winston06) the son of the Shah, as PM...he is a brilliant man. I am not sure that he would take the title of Shah...

169 wiffersnapper  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:48:55pm

A democratic election in an islamic country? Why that's Bush's fault!

/sarc ;)

170 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:49:52pm

re: #156 BigPapa

OK, so you're saying that any attack on Iran would dramatically affect the price of oil. But of course. Current events in Iran are affecting the price of oil.

I'm also reading that attacking/hard assing Iran is a bad idea, difficult, not wise, whatever. Please clarify the term and your point.

Finite supply. Willingness to trade. If we nuke Iran, who's next? What if we play the nuke card to *ensure* a continued supply of crude to the US? (Granted, a blue sky concept, but keep in mind, the oil suppliers have been fucked so hard in the past by the consuming countries that their paranoia is palpable).

Simply put, what would we do if the the Saudis, Nigerians, Venezuelans, and Malaysians stopped selling us their oil because of an "unprovoked attack" on Iran before they had tested a viable nuclear weapon?

Got that vegetable garden going in the back yard? Got that chicken coop? Hoo boy. America would frickin implode.

171 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:50:12pm

re: #162 ShanghaiEd

IMO, I don't see Austin or anyone "giving cover" to any regime. They're just point out that a military option always has unintended consequences, as we've seen in recent years. To me, any high hopes for changing regimes through pre-emptive bombing is even more idealistic/personal than the opposite. Just my two cents.

Then you and Austin can feel comfortable in your non-confrontational, and 'hopeful' of course, way forward.

Thoughts on a nuclear Iran?

172 Racer X  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:51:31pm

re: #166 Floral Giraffe

WAY OT:
Huntington Botanic Garden's "son of stinky" is now open!
(Amorphophalus titan arum)

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

Cool!

I love going to the Huntington!

173 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:51:44pm

re: #170 austin_blue

You doubt our nation's resourcefulness too much. Have Faith. We would pull through such a crisis.

174 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:52:44pm

re: #168 NY Nana

I keep thinking about those tweets where the parents of the Iranian college students were chanting "Obama please help us".

175 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:53:33pm

re: #160 The Shadow Do

Are you serious?

Don't know about you, but I definitely got a dog in this hunt.

Ah. You are posting from Tehran. My apologies. Fight the good fight!

176 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:56:01pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

You doubt our nation's resourcefulness too much. Have Faith. We would pull through such a crisis.

There is a difference between resourcefulness and resources. One is ethereal and wonderful. The other is a sad fact.

177 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:56:14pm

re: #170 austin_blue

Finite supply. Willingness to trade. If we nuke Iran, who's next? What if we play the nuke card to *ensure* a continued supply of crude to the US? (Granted, a blue sky concept, but keep in mind, the oil suppliers have been fucked so hard in the past by the consuming countries that their paranoia is palpable).

This is taking an interesting turn. I was hoping you'd clarify your position on whether we should do something about Iran and what that might be, instead of we better not invade/nuke them, which is what I'm reading from you.

But now you seem to be moving into different territory. Can we stay on Iran for the moment before we invade another?

178 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:56:27pm

re: #175 austin_blue

He means that he has a dog in any fight where one side seeks freedom and peace while the other seeks tyranny and war. All true patriots have a dog in such fights.

179 Macker  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:56:33pm

re: #168 NY Nana

I just feel that the courage the Iranians have shown, even though they were and still are putting themselves in danger of being killed, indicates a desire for true democracy that there is no going back.

And by Obama hiding under the bed? He will rue the day when Iran is free, as he will see the Iranians spit in his face.

I think that the Iranians who are fighting so hard now to be free realize that most Americans are on their side, and are praying for them...

Bottom line? I would very much like to Reza Pahlevi,(hat tip Winston06) the son of the Shah, as PM...he is a brilliant man. I am not sure that he would take the title of Shah...

I am also in favor of Reza Pahlavi returning to Iran. He has the benefit of not only being the Shah's son, but he may have spoken to his father before he died about some of the things he may or may not have done...which we are not privy to...and not wanting to repeat those mistakes which his father may have made.
In any case, NY Nana...10,000 updings for you!

180 Racer X  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:57:53pm

Cool Squirrel pics.

Very cute. Until you notice the claws.

181 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:57:56pm

re: #175 austin_blue

Ah. You are posting from Tehran. My apologies. Fight the good fight!

If you think the ramifications of the upheaval in Tehran is limited to Iran, then you are being awfully naive. And I know that you are not.

Are you OK with the status quo in Iran? Does the disturbance there trouble you? Are you OK with the nuclear trajectory of the current regime. Do you just want it all to just sort of go away?

182 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:58:07pm

re: #176 austin_blue

There is a difference between resourcefulness and resources. One is ethereal and wonderful. The other is a sad fact.

We would still have access to most of what we needed. The rest we could simply take or get from middlemen. And again, I think the oil producers would break long before we would.

183 Floral Giraffe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:58:35pm

re: #172 Racer X

Cool!

I love going to the Huntington!


Channeling Homer Simpson...
AAAh, the Tea Room!
(yum!)
Seriously, the Huntington Botanic Gardens & Library are a jewel in the culture of the USA. Maintained by volunteers, and run by a few serious staff. I love the place, too!

184 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:58:38pm

re: #171 The Shadow Do

Then you and Austin can feel comfortable in your non-confrontational, and 'hopeful' of course, way forward.

Thoughts on a nuclear Iran?

I certainly don't feel comfortable about the situation. Non-military doesn't mean non-confrontational. And I'm not really that hopeful, just realistic. Definitely hoping for the people's uprising to bear fruit with a minimum loss of life, though.

Thoughts on a nuclear Iran? Bummer.

185 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:00:13pm

re: #174 Pvt Bin Jammin

I keep thinking about those tweets where the parents of the Iranian college students were chanting "Obama please help us".

Oh, so do I, so do I. And there was just a whiff of hot air that passed them by, but they knew it was from Obama...

The only ones that Obama will help are his political cronies and big donors..with political appointments they are no more suited for than I am for the Marine Corp, at age 71.

But I would gladly cook and bake for our troops...Obama treats them like shit.

186 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:03:14pm

re: #170 austin_blue

Got that vegetable garden going in the back yard? Got that chicken coop? Hoo boy. America would frickin implode.

I see an irony in this statement. Pointing out negatives as the reasoning against doing something.

The left has hammered previous administrations for supporting not totally peachy governments, usually as the lesser of two evils, implicitly to keep the oil supply stable and not to shock the system.

What do you think about that?

187 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:04:08pm

re: #185 NY Nana

Oh, so do I, so do I. And there was just a whiff of hot air that passed them by, but they knew it was from Obama...

The only ones that Obama will help are his political cronies and big donors..with political appointments they are no more suited for than I am for the Marine Corp, at age 71.

But I would gladly cook and bake for our troops...Obama treats them like shit.

I am 61, Nana, as you know. I think the USMC would take either one of us first. Besides, I am good at spit shining shoes.

188 pink freud  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:05:51pm

re: #166 Floral Giraffe

WAY OT:
Huntington Botanic Garden's "son of stinky" is now open!
(Amorphophalus titan arum)

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

I think it's so cool that you post on its progress, FG. I own several of the amorphophalus and they are spectacular. None of the titan, though. Not for me. LOL

189 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:07:10pm

re: #171 The Shadow Do

Then you and Austin can feel comfortable in your non-confrontational, and 'hopeful' of course, way forward.

Thoughts on a nuclear Iran?

Well, we did a whole lot under Reagan when the Pakistanis went nuclear in the 80's didn't we?

Just sayin...

What really makes you more nervous right now, existing nukes in Pakistan or potential nukes in Iran?

190 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:08:18pm

re: #186 BigPapa

I see an irony in this statement. Pointing out negatives as the reasoning against doing something.

The left has hammered previous administrations for supporting not totally peachy governments, usually as the lesser of two evils, implicitly to keep the oil supply stable and not to shock the system.

What do you think about that?

I think we have made deals with several devils.

191 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:09:17pm

re: #179 Macker

Macker, from what I have read about him, he is an extremely bright man, who lost his Dad too young, but loves Iran with all his heart. I think that he has been in training all these years, and with a free Iran? His expertize and knowledge would make him a member of the world's leaders that Iran would be proud of.

He could have spent his life as a playboy, name it, but he chose to do whatever he could from here to further the cause of a free, democratic Iran.

And he has led an exemplary life. Would that we had a candidate for president, in this last election, from the Dems with a love for our country as strong as his is for Iran...we are stuck with a self-loving socialist member of the Chicago political machine, who does not give a damn for us, and certainly like a poster here, not a bit of caring for the valiant Iranians.

Bet he wishes he could flick his fingers and make them all disappear.

192 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:10:40pm

re: #189 austin_blue

Iran is the game changer. MAD prevails in Pakistan/India. Iran is on a murderous mission of empire building.

193 Floral Giraffe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:11:08pm

re: #188 pink freud

This one got donated to the Huntington, because the owner was afraid it was gonna blow the roof off his greenhouse, the next year!

Glad you enjoy my WAY OT!

194 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:12:01pm

re: #192 The Shadow Do

Iran is the game changer. MAD prevails in Pakistan/India. Iran is on a murderous mission of empire building.

Agreed. And with that, I must head to bed. I need about 6 hours of sleep, and so must turn in now.

195 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:12:34pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

Sweet dreams!

196 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:14:21pm

re: #193 Floral Giraffe

This one got donated to the Huntington, because the owner was afraid it was gonna blow the roof off his greenhouse, the next year!

Glad you enjoy my WAY OT!

I am pretty close to the Huntington but have never gone down there for this. Have you?

197 Floral Giraffe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:14:25pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

Dream good dreams! You've fought a good fight(s) today!

198 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:15:37pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

G'nite. Have a wonderful day tomorrow.

199 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:17:30pm

Adios lizards. Interesting discussion, as always. I appreciate that this board supports differing viewpoints and doesn't devolve (except every once in a while) into flame wars. We had our eighth consecutive 100 degree day here in Austin at the 78704 meter. I would blame it on global warming/climate change, but I'm a scientist and know the difference between weather and climate.

Sleep well. Be good humans.

200 Macker  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:17:39pm

re: #189 austin_blue

What really makes you more nervous right now, existing nukes in Pakistan or potential nukes in Iran?

Yes.

201 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:18:15pm

re: #190 austin_blue

I think we have made deals with several devils.

Okay. But you haven't answered any of my questions austin.

202 Floral Giraffe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:18:50pm

re: #196 Pvt Bin Jammin

I am pretty close to the Huntington but have never gone down there for this. Have you?

Went in 1999 in a WOOL business suit & silk shirt in late AUGUST.
It was totally worth it! Sent the clothes to the cleaners! LOL!
(Go early, line's shorter!) I had to go at the end of a work day & it didn't smell at all. I'm STILL disappointed, but the flower was way cool! I was there last Saturday & went to check out the spike! I might get there Saturday (sigh, the crowds) but the flower will be gone by next week. Saturday last week, the flower grew 4 inches. They know it'll bloom, when the growth stops.

203 Macker  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:18:51pm

re: #191 NY Nana

I think I'll contact his office to see if he can do a "radio interview"...

204 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:28:56pm

re: #186 BigPapa

I see an irony in this statement. Pointing out negatives as the reasoning against doing something.

The left has hammered previous administrations for supporting not totally peachy governments, usually as the lesser of two evils, implicitly to keep the oil supply stable and not to shock the system.

What do you think about that?

Okay, just saw this. I repeat, we have made deals with several devils for oil. What I said before is that if Iran is nuked, either by us or the Israel, our oil supply will be cut off. Shadow seems to think if that happens we could just take over oil production in various countries to ensure our supply. I'd like to believe that he is under the influence of highly psycho-active drugs, but I believe he is serious.

The belief of the American people that our military is bulletproof and omnipotent is sadly misunderstood. Everything has its limits, and our boys and girls in uniform, at this particular time, have reached theirs.

205 NY Nana  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:31:41pm

re: #203 Macker

I think I'll contact his office to see if he can do a "radio interview"...

Excellent idea...you might want to contact Winston..here is his blog. He may have an idea on how to do it. He is a great admirer of his. His info is on the blog.

Good luck!

G'nite, all! Sweet dreams. Can't see straight, so help me!

206 austin_blue  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:32:32pm

re: #192 The Shadow Do

Iran is the game changer. MAD prevails in Pakistan/India. Iran is on a murderous mission of empire building.

You don't understand the definition of MAD, do you? I sat nuclear alert. It's not about one or two countries. It's about civilization.

207 foray  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:15:29am

I used to busk in Marrakesh in the Djemaa el Fna doing firestaff and juggling with a Moroccan bloke who was a fire breather. It's an amazing country and culture, although you seriously have work hard to be seen as anything other than the wallet on legs that most tourists are seen as.

To be honest it's no a huge surprise they managed successful democratic elections, Morocco has always been massively dependent on tourism and that kind of influx of different cultures can't help but moderate a country slightly.

208 koedo  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:53:14am

Excellent!

209 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 6:52:53am

The most impressive aspect of this is the gradual, peaceful transition of Morocco from an absolute monarch to democracy. The absolute monarchy engaged in abuses, noted up-thread. I remember a "60 Minutes" story a few years ago about abuses of a Moroccan citizen by the king. The gradual transfer of power to the Morroccan people is good news.

210 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 7:58:19am

re: #207 foray

I used to busk in Marrakesh in the Djemaa el Fna doing firestaff and juggling with a Moroccan bloke who was a fire breather. It's an amazing country and culture, although you seriously have work hard to be seen as anything other than the wallet on legs that most tourists are seen as.

To be honest it's no a huge surprise they managed successful democratic elections, Morocco has always been massively dependent on tourism and that kind of influx of different cultures can't help but moderate a country slightly.

I think that yours is an interesing observation. These totaliarian theocracies must construct, at the very least, a semi-vacuum in order to survive. All totalitarian regimes, either project an unwelcome demeanor to foreigners, thus inhibiting their entry, or become complete hermit states (as in the case of North Korea).

Regular people interacting with regular people from other countries and cultures does create an openess and moderation that's healthy, while state-inspired paranoia and xenophobia depersonalizes "foreigners" and creates an environment of fear and loathing.

I wonder how many Iraqis that were raised to fear and hate Americans have, after meeting and conversing with real Americans, have said to themselves "hey, these guys are actually pretty decent people"?

211 Arrr  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 8:33:54am

Once again, history continues to vindicate Bush. From ashes to glory.

212 shrike  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 8:59:39am

Jimmy Page and Robert plant perform in Morrocco
Your text to link...

213 Kronocide  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 9:05:22am

Khamenei accused foreign media and Western countries of trying to create a political rift and stir up chaos in Iran. Iranian leaders often blame foreign "enemies" for plots against the country, but Khamenei's comments suggest Iran could remain cool to expanding dialogue with the West and the offer of opening talks with Washington.

President Barack Obama has taken a cautious line on the election dispute, expressing sympathy with protesters but avoiding condemnation of the Islamic government.

By my count, we haven't said much of crap, nor has anybody else (governments). We'll still get blamed for meddling if we said absolutely nothing.

We've done a great job of staying out of it just in case we give them an excuse to blame us, no?

214 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 9:29:25am

re: #213 BigPapa

Khamenei accused foreign media and Western countries of trying to create a political rift and stir up chaos in Iran. Iranian leaders often blame foreign "enemies" for plots against the country, but Khamenei's comments suggest Iran could remain cool to expanding dialogue with the West and the offer of opening talks with Washington.

President Barack Obama has taken a cautious line on the election dispute, expressing sympathy with protesters but avoiding condemnation of the Islamic government.

By my count, we haven't said much of crap, nor has anybody else (governments). We'll still get blamed for meddling if we said absolutely nothing.

We've done a great job of staying out of it just in case we give them an excuse to blame us, no?

...Since we're getting blamed for "meddling" anyway, why not take a more forceful stand by actually condemning the Iranian sham election, instead of "voting present" as Obama appears to be doing?

215 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 9:37:19am

OT:
U.S. Military Set to Intercept North Korean Ship Suspected of Proliferating Missiles, Nukes

The destroyer that they're sending is the "USS John McCain". Interesting coincidence.

216 mjwsatx  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:02:19am

History will credit George W. Bush for this nascent change in the Muslim world. We are witnessing the birth pangs of freedom in both Iran and Morocco. This can be credited to all of those purple fingers and smiling Iraqi faces. Democracy? Not really. But definitely a step closer to freedom. Thank you President Bush. President Barack Obama and his ilk will be shown by history to be on the wrong side of the beginnings of the freedom movement in the Muslim world. Shame on him and those who support him.

Krathammer asks:

And where is our president? Afraid of "meddling." Afraid to take sides between the head-breaking, women-shackling exporters of terror -- and the people in the street yearning to breathe free. This from a president who fancies himself the restorer of America's moral standing in the world.

Shame on you President Obama.

217 swamprat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:17:00am

A muslim nation with greater freedom than Cuba.

218 Bullskin  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:35:14am

re: #47 pat

Morocco is another Muslim hell hole, pretending to be a democracy.

In that phony elections, the major party is the King's party. You can also down ding me as well.

219 japati  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:47:37am

According to official records it was never hotter than 107.6 f (42 c) on June 12th.

If a reporter can get something so basic so wrong, you have to wonder about the rest.


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