Krauthammer: Obama’s Afraid to Take Sides

Opinion • Views: 2,657

The argument in favor of Barack Obama’s current position toward Iran is that if he openly called for revolution in Iran, he could endanger the protesters and cause a violent crackdown.

Charles Krauthammer isn’t buying it: Obama Misses the Point With Iran Response.

All hangs in the balance. The Khamenei regime is deciding whether to do a Tiananmen. And what side is the Obama administration taking? None. Except for the desire that this “vigorous debate” (press secretary Robert Gibbs’s disgraceful euphemism) over election “irregularities” not stand in the way of U.S.-Iranian engagement on nuclear weapons.

Even from the narrow perspective of the nuclear issue, the administration’s geopolitical calculus is absurd. There is zero chance that any such talks will denuclearize Iran. On Monday, President Ahmadinejad declared yet again that the nuclear “file is shut, forever.” The only hope for a resolution of the nuclear question is regime change, which (if the successor regime were as moderate as pre-Khomeini Iran) might either stop the program, or make it manageable and nonthreatening.

That’s our fundamental interest. And our fundamental values demand that America stand with demonstrators opposing a regime that is the antithesis of all we believe.

And where is our president? Afraid of “meddling.”

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400 comments
1 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 9:58:49am

“present!”

2 pat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 9:59:14am

Yep. He is a shadow of a leader. Created by the press, he has no mind of his own.

3 Mr Chompers  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 9:59:16am

Another vote for “Present” for our guy…

4 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 9:59:54am

We’ve been accused of meddling so, what’s holding us back now?

5 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:00:23am

CK is just about my favorite pundit…he and VDH are never wrong

6 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:01:03am

re: #4 MandyManners

We’ve been accused of meddling so, what’s holding us back now?

let ‘er rip BO!….get some!

7 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:01:31am

re: #4 MandyManners

We’ve been accused of meddling so, what’s holding us back now?

A chicken shit president, maybe?

8 saylorfam  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:01:40am

Just another empty suit. Tragedy doesn’t always refer to an event that has happened, it can also refer to an event that was not permitted to happen. Clearly this is just another missed opportunity for the Pres to take his place on the World stage. This guy is such a disappointment on so many levels.

9 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:01:48am

Pres. Obama oddly enough punishes Israel verbally, down to whether individual Israelis can add a room to their house! Talk about compulsive obsession & micromanagement of a democratic ally.

10 captdiggs  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:02:16am

A Churchill or Reagan, Obama is not.
Sarkozy and Harper ( of Canada) have taken much stronger positions.
Shamefully, we have become the new “surrender monkeys”.

11 Kragar  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:02:44am

We’re sorry, but the Shining City on the Hill is closed while undergoing management restructuring. They’re is no planned date for reopening at this point. Thanks for your patience.

/The Management

12 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:03:00am

re: #4 MandyManners

We’ve been accused of meddling so, what’s holding us back now?

If President Bush were in Office along with the other adults, I might not mind some meddling, but with Obama and his “crew”, well I’m a little leery to see them go off half cocked?

13 DaddyG  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:03:09am

Obama is too busy organizing the national community to do anything but vote present when it comes to the international scene.

Krauthammer had a post election column that predicted this. He’s dang insightful.

14 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:03:19am

But Obama won.
/////////

15 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:03:24am

personally I believe BO want the status quo with regard to Irans nukes…he has wavered back and forth but I think he needs Uran to help strong arm Israel into an agreement with the Palis favorable to them

16 danshelb  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:03:41am

Krauthammer is a fantastic columnists, one of the few that consistently and concisely lays out the situation and cuts through the Obama-fog.

17 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:03:45am
18 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:03:47am

If meddling with fanatical Islamic mullahs who sic Hezbollah on their own people is wrong, baby I don’t want to be right.

19 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:04:25am

OT re taking sides boldly:

USS John McCain Navy ship is tracking the suspicious North Korean ship probably loaded with nukes, that is travelling down China’s coastline. China clueless? NOT NOT NOT.

Per Jennifer Griffin of Fox News.

20 redc1c4  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:04:47am

Ear Leader is afraid, period. that’s why he never takes sides, and waffles on everything.

it’s hard to take a stand when you lack substance.

21 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:05:15am

o sides w/ all the islamic tyrants in the m.e
his sympathies are not w/ the people. he does believe they can prevail.
his silence is a disgrace.
it shows how calculating and conniving he is. and self serving.
he travels the world demeaning america and praising these horrid regimes.
he panders to these thugs and dictators.
and he plans to meet w/ them.
they think he is useful idiot.
and they can’t wait to engage him to further their sinister goals.

22 Gaye Kukkin-Offenyam  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:05:18am

There aren’t enough Jews left in Iran for Obama to get involved.

23 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:05:24am

So… since a crackdown is being threatened anyway, Obama is going to make a supportive statement any moment now.

/ crickets chirping

24 Haole  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:05:42am

Can I finish my waffles please.

25 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:06:05am

re: #10 captdiggs

A Churchill or Reagan, Obama is not.
Sarkozy and Harper ( of Canada) have taken much stronger positions.
Shamefully, we have become the new “surrender monkeys”.

Hell, even the House Democrats took a stronger position than Obama. They sided with the Rpublicans on this one, and only, yes, only Ron Paul the Twit cast the lone dissenting vote. The Senate is getting ready to do likewise.

26 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:06:19am

Thank you for this thread, Charles.

27 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:06:21am

The situation is so fluid that Hilllary and Obama can’t keep up with it. They’re frozen in their original position, which now has been overrun by the course of rapidly moving events.

This is clear evidence of a White House unable or unwilling to maneuver quickly as the situation on the ground in Iran changes.

28 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:06:28am

Unfortunately, Obama is simply the elected executive of the USA.

He’s *NOT* the leader of the free world.

29 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:06:48am

Again, this goes to the question of what exactly the Administration considers meddling.

Standing on the side of liberty and freedom from tyranny is meddling, but demanding that an ally (Israel) make concessions to a terror regime is standard operating procedure and hoping that if the Israeli Prime Minister doesn’t change his mind, that the Israelis should consider someone else.

It’s not that Obama is afraid to take sides. It’s that he’s chosen sides and doesn’t want people to realize what he’s done. It’s obfuscation of his policy positions - hoping to wrap it up in fuzzy warmth that doesn’t stand up to serious scrutiny.

Again, I ask all those who oppose Obama saying anything stronger than he has to date (or complain that he’s gone to far as the TNR and other critics of Kagan have done): what exactly is gained by not supporting freedom and a hoped for peaceful resolution to the election crisis in Iran? Critics call that meddling, when expressing a hope for changed circumstances is what Obama has always maintained in his own election and policies.

30 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:07:10am
31 DaddyG  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:07:14am

Would making a chicken and waffle remark be racist? /re: #24 Haole

Would making a chicken and waffle remark be racist? /Would making a chicken and waffle remark be racist? /

32 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:07:22am

re: #27 quickjustice

The situation is so fluid that Hilllary and Obama can’t keep up with it. They’re frozen in their original position, which now has been overrun by the course of rapidly moving events.

This is clear evidence of a White House unable or unwilling to maneuver quickly as the situation on the ground in Iran changes.

Basically, in a nutshell, Hillary and Obama are the Maginot Line of the government.

33 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:07:33am

re: #27 quickjustice

The situation is so fluid that Hilllary and Obama can’t keep up with it. They’re frozen in their original position, which now has been overrun by the course of rapidly moving events.

This is clear evidence of a White House unable or unwilling to maneuver quickly as the situation on the ground in Iran changes.

I thought Hilliary is on the “DL”? Bad elbow or something.

34 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:07:45am

interesting how he loves to meddle in israel’s gov’t. affairs.
and in our personal lives.
don’t kid yourselves, o is a world class meddler when it suits him.

35 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:07:47am

re: #20 redc1c4

Ear Leader is afraid, period. that’s why he never takes sides, and waffles on everything.

it’s hard to take a stand when you lack substance.

* * * *
WRONG. Pres. Obama has boldly gone where no president has gone before in terms of storming our US Treasury & hijacking our “engines of production” for his purposes.

Do NOT underestimate what Pres. Obama has already achieved while we sit here blogging.

36 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:08:12am

re: #29 lawhawk

Again, this goes to the question of what exactly the Administration considers meddling.

Standing on the side of liberty and freedom from tyranny is meddling, but demanding that an ally (Israel) make concessions to a terror regime is standard operating procedure and hoping that if the Israeli Prime Minister doesn’t change his mind, that the Israelis should consider someone else.

It’s not that Obama is afraid to take sides. It’s that he’s chosen sides and doesn’t want people to realize what he’s done. It’s obfuscation of his policy positions - hoping to wrap it up in fuzzy warmth that doesn’t stand up to serious scrutiny.

Again, I ask all those who oppose Obama saying anything stronger than he has to date (or complain that he’s gone to far as the TNR and other critics of Kagan have done): what exactly is gained by not supporting freedom and a hoped for peaceful resolution to the election crisis in Iran? Critics call that meddling, when expressing a hope for changed circumstances is what Obama has always maintained in his own election and policies.

Not to decide is to decide, no?

37 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:08:28am
38 DaddyG  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:08:43am

Whoa. What happened to put my last post in triplicate?

39 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:08:51am
40 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:08:56am

re: #36 MacDuff

Not to decide is to decide, no?

Maybe?

41 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:09:00am

Quoting from my own material on the DT I wish President Obama would at least say, on OUR behalf:

“America has always been about Freedom - striving for all Americans to have it and we have always supported Freedom and Democracy around the World. We condemn, TOTALLY, the brutal attacks on the “dissidents” by the Iranian government, the shooting, beatings and threats to the families of those dissidents. It is indeed a situation that Iranians must deal with themselves, but we can and will not sit idly by without voicing our concerns over the way the Iranian government has responded to the Iranians who have disputed the outcome of the recent elections.”

42 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:09:11am

re: #34 nyc redneck

interesting how he loves to meddle in israel’s gov’t. affairs.
and in our personal lives.
don’t kid yourselves, o is a world class meddler when it suits him.

Hall of Famer
Olympian

43 Salamantis  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:09:24am

re: #33 Nevergiveup

I thought Hilliary is on the “DL”? Bad elbow or something.

Yeah; she fractured her elbow and Sonia Sotomayer broke her ankle.

/I’m thinking clumsy bedroom aerobics…

44 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:09:51am

re: #38 DaddyG

Whoa. What happened to put my last post in triplicate?

The bureaucracy is invading! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!

45 DaddyG  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:00am

re: #43 Salamantis Brain bleach please!

46 CIA Reject  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:12am

re: #43 Salamantis

Yeah; she fractured her elbow and Sonia Sotomayer broke her ankle.

/I’m thinking clumsy bedroom aerobics…

I really didn’t need that visual right after lunch…

47 redc1c4  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:12am

re: #27 quickjustice

The situation is so fluid that Hilllary and Obama can’t keep up with it. They’re frozen in their original position, which now has been overrun by the course of rapidly moving events.

This is clear evidence of a White House unable or unwilling to maneuver quickly as the situation on the ground in Iran changes.

you might say they’ve been elbowed aside….. %-)

48 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:18am

re: #32 Honorary Yooper

If Krauthammer is right, Obama and Hillary are remaining silent deliberately, because they side with Ahmadinejad against the protesters. If that’s the case, America now sides with evil.

I hang my head in shame.

49 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:20am

re: #28 looking closely

I hate to say it, but I think Nicolas Sarkozy is now the leader of the free world.

He’s the one acting like it, while Obama (as typical) is sitting around with his finger in the air trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing.

50 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:25am
51 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:35am

re: #19 alegrias

OT re taking sides boldly:

USS John McCain Navy ship is tracking the suspicious North Korean ship probably loaded with nukes, that is travelling down China’s coastline. China clueless? NOT NOT NOT.

In case anyone’s curious, the destroyer is named for Sen. McCain’s father and grandfather, both USN Admirals.

52 SurferDoc  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:35am

The Wizard of Uhs is a metrosexual lightweight who couldn’t pull the trigger if his life depended on it, much less ours or anyone else’s.

53 Last Mohican  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:41am

Krauthammer is right on the money. Did Obama really “speak favorably of ‘some initial reaction from the Supreme Leader that indicates he understands the Iranian people have deep concerns about the election.’”? If so, he’s an even bigger POS than I thought. He’s bending over backwards to try to find a way to praise the mullahs.

I understand the dangers of “meddling.” If the protests are seen as stirred up by the U.S., that would kill their momentum, and the whole thing would fizzle. But mere words of support for the protesters do not constitute meddling.

Obama has made it clear why he’s acting as he is. He doesn’t have a problem with Iran’s support for genocidal terrorists, terrorists whom Obama himself embraces. He doesn’t have a problem with Iran’s desperate quest for nuclear weapons. He’s merely slightly miffed by the holocaust denial thing. Far from seeing a potential Iranian counterrevolution as a watershed moment in history, he sees it as a potential obstacle to the meeting with the mullahs that he dreams of having. Shame on him.

54 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:43am

My view of this is if the reason for not speaking out strongly is that you think it will deligitimize the movement, well, who better to ask than the people in the movement?

Now, they haven’t in so many words said, “America, please help” but, well, look at the signs they are waiving. Can you read what they are saying? If you can, then maybe you will notice that they are in ENGLISH. now why is that?

Could it be that they are in english because they want a certain english-speaking country to lend some support?

the answer is an obvious yes. So clearly in their view it would help them if we said something in support.

so who’s right? Well, i tend to think that the people who are there, actually getting their heads cracked, have a little more authority than some pundit or president in washington.

And besides, they are accusing us of meddling anyway. so if we are going to be blamed for it whether it is fair or not, we might as well do it.

55 Buck  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:47am

This is that 3AM call!

56 Mad Mullah  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:52am

Obama is a wuss. He is indeed afraid to take sides and that is the way that he’s always acted. Obama sees no good or bad sides in the conflict, just two different parties and the wuss wouldn’t want to offend anybody.

57 J.S.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:10:57am

this is one time where I have to respectfully disagree with Charles Krauthammer…(I just don’t see how the U.S. could say/do anything which wouldn’t result in something far more “problematic”…)

58 kynna  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:02am

re: #12 Nevergiveup

If President Bush were in Office along with the other adults, I might not mind some meddling, but with Obama and his “crew”, well I’m a little leery to see them go off half cocked?

I agree, I wouldn’t want him getting “boots on the ground” involved. But he could come out in favor of freedom and democracy, as Krauthamer is suggesting. He’s voting “present” and it’s obvious to the entire world.

59 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:05am

re: #28 looking closely

Unfortunately, Obama is simply the elected executive of the USA.

He’s *NOT* the leader of the free world.

* * * *
Pres. Obama had no executive experience, not even running a lemonade stand, before this election.

I prefer the more active term “Takeover artiste” to describe what Pres. Obama has done since his election. Red & Greenmail hostile takeover artistes have helped him in this bold attack on our own organism, USA.

60 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:07am

There is a lot of ground between Obama’s overly cautious neutrality, and outright meddling. Obama could condemn the violence by the security forces, and the human rights abuses. He could praise the courage of the Iranian people to stand up and demand freedom & democracy. He could still leave open the question of legitimacy, endorsing no faction in the political battle.

But no.

61 zato  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:18am

We’re getting what the lefties voted for. Barry has always been afraid of taking positions… his entire career has been built on talking from the sidelines, after the two sides have battled it out. As the old saying goes, “sitting on the fence results in sore crotches.”

62 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:18am
63 Kragar  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:20am

re: #55 Buck

This is that 3AM call!

Fuck it, voice mail will catch it.

64 redc1c4  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:37am

re: #38 DaddyG

Whoa. What happened to put my last post in triplicate?

carbon paper?

65 wintercat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:53am

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)

Sadly, doing nothing is the official policy of this administration.

66 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:11:58am

re: #48 quickjustice

If Krauthammer is right, Obama and Hillary are remaining silent deliberately, because they side with Ahmadinejad against the protesters. If that’s the case, America now sides with evil.

I hang my head in shame.

here is what is really sad.
o is willing and anxious to deal w/ monsters like this.

67 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:12:08am

The ‘Pawn Rawl & Obama Show’ todays episode - Present Together.

68 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:12:28am

re: #53 Last Mohican

almost too much to believe, but I do…maximum overload

69 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:12:28am

re: #34 nyc redneck

interesting how he loves to meddle in israel’s gov’t. affairs.
and in our personal lives.
don’t kid yourselves, o is a world class meddler when it suits him.

* * * *
NY Redneck, like yesterday, there are great comments at today’s Wall Street Journal opinion section article on California/Arnold Schwartzenegger’s flat tax proposal. The bloggers comments are great.

70 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:12:46am
71 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:12:54am

re: #54 A.W.


If you can, then maybe you will notice that they are in ENGLISH. now why is that?

They can’t write Hebrew?
/

72 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:12:57am

re: #29 lawhawk

Agreed. To what gain is it to the United States or more importantly to President Obama to vote present on the Iran elections debacle? He’s not afraid to take sides on other issues often answering to sharp criticisms with “We won” as if that ends the debate.Why the deafening silence now?

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:13:05am

re: #54 A.W.


Now, they haven’t in so many words said, “America, please help” but, well, look at the signs they are waiving. Can you read what they are saying? If you can, then maybe you will notice that they are in ENGLISH. now why is that?
.

Without disagreeing with your basic point, I’m not totally sure about that. English is something of a lingua franca (yes, that’s a weird statement), and it’s not uncommon to see English signage at international rallies.

74 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:13:08am

Choice A)
War hero of unimpeachable repute. Decades of experience in all levels of government.

Choice B)
Smooth talking, community organizing, political freshman.

Hmmmmm…

75 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:13:08am

OT.

That Myers couple - the State Department types who were recently busted for spying for Cuba - was in the news again this morning.

The NYT has a background piece on them, in which it comes out that the husband, Kendall Myers, once wrote or worked on a book about Neville Chamberlain, “the British prime minister, whom Mr. Myers admired for his policies toward the Nazis.”

Really.

76 redc1c4  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:13:29am

re: #69 alegrias

* * * *
NY Redneck, like yesterday, there are great comments at today’s Wall Street Journal opinion section article on California/Arnold Schwartzenegger’s flat tax proposal. The bloggers comments are great.

link?

77 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:14:00am

re: #55 Buck

This is that 3AM call!

Please leave a message after the beep.

78 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:14:18am

IMO President Obama is torn. Thinking to himself, hmm.. Big government is great. Yet now people want me to stand up for the ‘little guy’. How do I do both…

*lightbulb*

“No meddling…”

/Brilliant!

79 VegasRick  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:14:20am

re: #55 Buck

This is that 3AM call!

Biden was right, for once. (we are not gonna like zero’s response)

80 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:14:29am

re: #35 alegrias
Good comment, but when it comes to foreign affairs, see my #41.

81 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:15:13am

Iran sponsors terrorism against the USA, has been engaged in sponsoring armed combat against the USA (in Iraq), sponsors global terrorism (via Hizb’Allah), and has actually taken sides in an American election when it endorsed George Bush over John Kerry!

But Obama thinks speaking out on the need for free elections is “meddling”.

82 DaddyG  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:15:23am

Send in ACORN to help straighten this out. /

83 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:15:23am

I’m not surprised by any of this — Obama made it very clear during the election that he was going to behave exactly how he’s behaving now.

84 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:15:37am

re: #60 Kenneth

There is a lot of ground between Obama’s overly cautious neutrality, and outright meddling. Obama could condemn the violence by the security forces, and the human rights abuses. He could praise the courage of the Iranian people to stand up and demand freedom & democracy. He could still leave open the question of legitimacy, endorsing no faction in the political battle.

But no.

let alone speak out for gay rights

85 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:15:41am

Now Obama is on “record” as saying the Iran is linked to the Israeli-Palestinians issue? Hum? So the demonstrations in Iran are pro or anti settlements? Gee Now I am confused?

86 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:15:51am

re: #36 MacDuff

Not to decide is to decide, no?

You still have made a choice.


87 JustABill  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:16:13am

re: #54 A.W.

My view of this is if the reason for not speaking out strongly is that you think it will deligitimize the movement, well, who better to ask than the people in the movement?

Now, they haven’t in so many words said, “America, please help” but, well, look at the signs they are waiving. Can you read what they are saying? If you can, then maybe you will notice that they are in ENGLISH. now why is that?

Excellent post. My mind has been slowly changing on this. At first, I was of the impression that he should not throw direct support to the movement, now I am not so sure…

Could it be that they are in english because they want a certain english-speaking country to lend some support?

the answer is an obvious yes. So clearly in their view it would help them if we said something in support.

so who’s right? Well, i tend to think that the people who are there, actually getting their heads cracked, have a little more authority than some pundit or president in washington.

And besides, they are accusing us of meddling anyway. so if we are going to be blamed for it whether it is fair or not, we might as well do it.

88 yesandno  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:16:26am

When you decide after the decision is made you can always claim you were right!

/even if you are left.

89 VegasRick  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:16:32am

re: #77 CyanSnowHawk

Please leave a message after the beep.

Press 4 for english?

90 Darwin Akbar  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:16:53am

“We don’t want to meddle in Iran and impose our values on the Supreme Exalted Grand Bearded Guy or the Little Genius Without a Necktie (Praises be upon them), as the U.S. did something mean to the Iranians in 1953. And yes, we acknowledge that we deserved it when you humiliated us in 1979 and held our dipolmats hostage for a year. We were bad and we are sorry. Please kick us again.”

“And yes, we know that these same Tolerant Religious Iranians killed a bunch of Jews in Argentina a few years ago…but they were just Jews and it was just a big bomb….nothing to worry about.

But we are happy to tell Israel what kinds of houses it can build and where, and force them to open that border crossing in order to empower the Moderate Jew-killers.”

“And we don’t believe in meddling , so you guys can do as you please. As far as our own citizens, though, they need our guidance, so we are happy to tell them:

- what cars they can drive;
- how much energy they are allowed to use;
- what kinds of foods they should eat;
- what kind of health insurance they can buy;
- what kind of medical care they are entitled to;
- what kind of benefits their credit card company can offer;
- what mortgage interest a bank can charge;
- how much money a bank executive can earn;
- what to teach their children about “alternative lifestyles”;

…and lots of other stuff, coming soon! But we don’t believe in meddling!”

91 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:16:55am

re: #57 J.S. Well please tell me why he couldn’t say something like what I suggested in #41 above? In fact, why SHOULDN’T he say that - isn’t that how America should feel?

92 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:16:59am

re: #52 SurferDoc

The Wizard of Uhs is a metrosexual lightweight who couldn’t pull the trigger if his life depended on it, much less ours or anyone else’s.

I wonder how he would’ve answered the Kitty Dukakis question in a debate.

93 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:17:02am

re: #83 Charles

I’m not surprised by any of this — Obama made it very clear during the election that he was going to behave exactly how he’s behaving now.

And for the record, I did not vote for that man.

94 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:17:05am

re: #74 experiencedtraveller

Choice A)
War hero of unimpeachable repute. Decades of experience in all levels of government.

Choice B)
Smooth talking, community organizing, political freshman.

Hmmmmm…

People heard what they wanted to hear, and voted with their hearts, not their brains.

Look where that got us.

95 Buck  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:17:12am

re: #83 Charles

I’m not surprised by any of this — Obama made it very clear during the election that he was going to behave exactly how he’s behaving now.

Exactly. That is why the left sees nothing wrong with his actions. In fact many I speak with imagine he is doing amazing things,,, just in the background… behind the scenes.

It is all about faith to them.

96 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:17:27am

re: #74 experiencedtraveller

Ron Paul.

//Sorry, I couldn’t resist. ;-)

97 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:17:28am
98 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:17:34am

re: #59 alegrias

* * * *
Pres. Obama had no executive experience, not even running a lemonade stand, before this election.

I prefer the more active term “Takeover artiste” to describe what Pres. Obama has done since his election. Red & Greenmail hostile takeover artistes have helped him in this bold attack on our own organism, USA.

He tried to run a lemonade stand, but he thought thirsty people like union workers should have the lemonade free, and he couldn’t get people who didn’t want lemonade to pay for those he gave the lemonade to.
And he never learned.

99 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:17:48am

I hope that everyone who refused to vote for McCain because he was not conservative enough is fucking happy now!

100 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:17:56am

re: #78 Oh no…Sand People!

IMO President Obama is torn. Thinking to himself, hmm.. Big government is great. Yet now people want me to stand up for the ‘little guy’. How do I do both…

*lightbulb*

“No meddling…”

/Brilliant!

For a jerk who’s meddling with the lives of 300M American’s today and God only knows how many in the future - no compute.

101 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:03am

Since I don’t see Mandy here, I’ll say it again in her stead:

I HOPE THOSE OF YOU WHO THOUGHT JOHN MCCAIN WAS NOT CONSERVATIVE ENOUGH ARE FUCKING HAPPY NOW!

102 Racer X  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:15am

What would Reagan do?

103 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:17am

re: #50 taxfreekiller

gonna have some congress critters by the ear tomorrow…..

any suggestions

all of the R’s

* * * *
Yes, Taxfree. Ask the Repubs to act against the

$5.6 Billion going to ACORN. (In today’s The Washington Examiner dot com, Byron York has a great article on how Republicans can stop ACORN’s theft, malfeasance, thuggery and demand more Inspector Generals.

I read it in the PDF version this am.)

Also,
ACT against the fake “healthcare CRISIS”). The Examiner also had a great editorial about how the government already controls half the healthcare expenditures in this country in Medicare & Medicaid, and much of that is messed up & wasted. Don’t let them take over 100% of our country’s healthcare.

Thanks for your service & continued activism. You are my hero!

104 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:19am

re: #83 Charles

I’m not surprised by any of this — Obama made it very clear during the election that he was going to behave exactly how he’s behaving now.

Normally politicians lie to us and tell us what we want to hear to get elected then do the exact opposite. In this case, you are exactly right, not only is he the first politician to not lie, but he is now doing exactly what he said he would do. I am just shocked that people liked what they heard…

105 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:20am

re: #93 Nevergiveup

And for the record, I did not vote for that man.

And that’s something a few people here can’t say

106 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:23am

re: #83 Charles

I’m not surprised by any of this — Obama made it very clear during the election that he was going to behave exactly how he’s behaving now.


EG, how he responded to military incursions by Russian into Georgia.

Nobody who has been paying attention thinks differently.

Obama is a @#$up when it comes to foreign policy. He’s Carter redux, perhaps worse.

107 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:30am

re: #101 Honorary Yooper

Too slow!

108 VegasRick  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:31am

re: #94 MrSilverDragon

People heard what they wanted to hear, and voted with their hearts, not their brains.

Look where that got us.

Have you folks seen Killgore?

109 dhg4  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:31am

But is Obama refusing to take sides? Or is he siding with Khameini as Robert Kagan argued the other day:

His extremely guarded response to the outburst of popular anger at the regime has been widely misinterpreted as reflecting concern that too overt an American embrace of the opposition will hurt it, or that he wants to avoid American “moralizing.” (Obama himself claimed yesterday that he didn’t want the United States to appear to be “meddling.”)

But Obama’s calculations are quite different. Whatever his personal sympathies may be, if he is intent on sticking to his original strategy, then he can have no interest in helping the opposition. His strategy toward Iran places him objectively on the side of the government’s efforts to return to normalcy as quickly as possible, not in league with the opposition’s efforts to prolong the crisis.

Kagan argues that President Obama’s main concern is negotiations with the regime; and if the regime is Ahmadinejad (and Khameini) that’s his *immediate* priority.

110 wintercat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:38am

re: #99 MandyManners

I hope that everyone who refused to vote for McCain because he was not conservative enough is fucking happy now!

Who is Happy?

//sorry, could not resist.

111 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:18:52am

re: #83 Charles

I’m not surprised by any of this — Obama made it very clear during the election that he was going to behave exactly how he’s behaving now.

We’re getting what 52% of the nation thought it wanted (or was jived into thinking by an uncritical media). Buyer’s remorse is going to be quite the bitch.

112 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:03am

re: #99 MandyManners

I hope that everyone who refused to vote for McCain because he was not conservative enough is fucking happy now!

AMEN!

113 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:05am

re: #99 MandyManners

I hope that everyone who refused to vote for McCain because he was not conservative enough is fucking happy now!

And some others here who voted for Obama because they were sick and tired of the right wing!

114 Summer Seale  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:09am

I agree that Obama definitely has to say something more at this point. I would, however, rather see the French and a few others come out first before Obama does - for obvious reasons. And I’d honestly want him to find out from the Iranian protest groups if they actually want that to happen or not.

However, I think Obama and we here also have another problem. The fact is that Mousavi is not hugely different on most issues we care deeply about. His name has become a byword for “freedom”, and his campaign has become more than it ever originally was intended to be. Perhaps he really sees an opportunity to change some of his fundamentals, but we haven’t seen any sign of that yet (again, for obvious reasons). But the worst thing would be for us to back this cause, succeed, and then find out that on some of the things we’re negotiating on…that he’s just as fanatical as the others.

I doubt he’d be as bad, but you could imagine the disaster that would be for the U.S. if he were even half as bad. Honestly, I think Obama is waiting for some assurances of some sort. I sure wish he took a more proactive role in getting them (or not), though. There isn’t much time left before this either dies, or becomes the real thing. It would be nice to out-think the Mullahs just for once this time.

115 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:14am

re: #97 buzzsawmonkey

in other words…blackmail

116 MrPaulRevere  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:26am

re: #75 Cato the Elder

More on the esteemed Mr. Myers here: At Least He Isn’t a Traitor to His Class [Link: www.weeklystandard.com…]

117 Buster  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:33am

Krauthammer nails it yet again, and the President would be well advised to consider what he has said; but, as I have previously opined, this President is to smart for advice.

118 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:50am

And where is our president?

He’s preoccupied with dreaming up more ways to screw the American taxpayer.

/Iran is an annoying distraction

119 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:54am

Sully’s dishonest hyperbole:

Recent posts with titles like this:

Neocons For Ahmadinejad

The Khamenei-Neocon Agreement

Disagree with what Charles Krauthammer, Paul Wolfowitz and others are saying about Obama’s Iran policy, if you will. Make a reasoned argument to support the neutral position, if you can. But to say they are “For Ahmadinejad” or in agreement with Khamenei is a slur and an outright lie.

120 yesandno  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:56am

Wait, this just in……….Obama apologizes………….

for everything……..even if we were only thinking it…….


Obama, blaming America for everything……no fence sitting here.

121 jill e  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:19:57am
122 iLikeCandy  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:05am

“It would be disastrous for the protesters if this were perceived as being masterminded by America.”

(paraphrased from lefty commentators)

It IS disastrous for (some of) the protesters.

And how could America “mastermind” millions of protesters into Iran’s streets?

123 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:06am

re: #101 Honorary Yooper

Since I don’t see Mandy here, I’ll say it again in her stead:

I HOPE THOSE OF YOU WHO THOUGHT JOHN MCCAIN WAS NOT CONSERVATIVE ENOUGH ARE FUCKING HAPPY NOW!

Beatcha’!

124 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:15am

re: #60 Kenneth Why couldn’t he just say something to what I cobbled together in my #41? I don’t think anything I said there was untrue nor would it be “meddling” in any real sense of that word.
How can the President of the United States, OUR COUNTRY, remain with his mealy mouthed stance?

125 Spider Mensch  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:18am

dabgummit! the obama administration has bigger fish to fry than sticking up for real democracy in iran…they have there hands full getting General Mills straightened out on Cheerios! How dare they claim it helps against high colesterol! Wheee! lookey the pretty rocket flying over Hawaii!

/

126 alkmyst  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:26am
127 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:35am

Obama is starting to make Jimmy Carter look good.

128 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:42am

re: #110 wintercat

Who is Happy?

//sorry, could not resist.

Who’s on first?

129 CIA Reject  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:51am

I think what annoys me more than anything else about this situation is the fact that fate has handed us the golden opportunity of terminating a 30 year conflict with Iran on our terms, with a change of regime, and Obama is just going to sit back and piss that opportunity away.

Sure, maybe it won’t end exactly, or even nearly, as we would want it but the least we can do is TRY to make the best of the situation and attempt to remove one of the greatest current threats to US national security.

And our “savior” does nothing…

/Disgust!

130 Robert O.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:20:53am

I really hate to repeat it for the umpteenth time, but I have very good sources tell me that for the US government to get involved would instantly suck all the oxygen out the room. Ahmadinejad, Khamenei and the rest of the thugs are itching for an excuse to violently put the protests to an end. US involvement would provide precisely that excuse.

Obama is simply not in a position to say anything other than the very carefully couched words he has used so far. That doesn’t mean US *citizens* cannot help Iranians by doing things like setting up proxy servers so they can access information. That would be the best thing to happen and some people are doing it. The US *government*, on the other hand, cannot get itself involved.

131 LoWil  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:00am

I keep trying to picture what speech Obama would have given at the Berlin Wall if he would have been in office in the 1980s…. “We must not take sides in this conflict…. Each party must listen to and respect the opinions and actions of the other…. The U.S. will not let our differences divide us from the Soviet Union, but instead will meet the Soviet leaders on common ground…” And so on and so forth.

132 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:01am

re: #119 Kenneth

It’s Andrew “the Trig troof is out there” Sullivan. ‘nuff said

133 dhg4  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:06am

re: #111 lawhawk

We’re getting what 52% of the nation thought it wanted (or was jived into thinking by an uncritical media). Buyer’s remorse is going to be quite the bitch.

I hope you’re right, but unless the media changes their approach to the administration, a lot of people won’t know enough to have remorse!

134 wintercat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:09am

By saying he does not wish to meddle, O has extended another olive branch to the evil midget. He hopes to gain the acceptance of one of the worst men on the planet. I rest easy at night knowing this.

//

135 DaddyG  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:24am

Loose CHANGE! HOPE a dope!

136 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:31am

re: #127 Ward Cleaver

Obama is starting to make Jimmy Carter look good.

You know when someone is really bad when you start pining for Jimmy Carter.

137 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:32am

re: #83 Charles

I agree with you, but I still hang my head in shame. Innocent blood is being publicly shed by the enemies of our nation, and the President of the U.S. remains silent out of political expediency.

138 Lynn B.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:36am

re: #48 quickjustice

If Krauthammer is right, Obama and Hillary are remaining silent deliberately, because they side with Ahmadinejad against the protesters. If that’s the case, America now sides with evil.

I hang my head in shame.

CK didn’t say anything like that.

139 brookly red  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:21:57am

I am not sure what good Os verbal support would would do for the people of Iran but I am sure that his lack of it makes the US appearer weak & that does no good to any one except our enemies.

140 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:22:00am

re: #43 Salamantis

Yeah; she fractured her elbow and Sonia Sotomayer broke her ankle.

/I’m thinking clumsy bedroom aerobics…

* * * *
David Letterman last night joked Hillary Clinton broke her elbow bursting into Bill Clinton’s office unannounced.

Letterman also kept milking his recent notorious Palin incident to boost his ratings by saying to tune in for his latest apology.

141 LatinGent  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:22:03am

What are we waiting for? We`re waiting for enough time to go by so we dont have to do anything. I remember this kid at school. He got his butt kicked on regular basis.

142 Clubsec  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:22:05am

Thanks Charles, for the WAPO link, Krauthammer is one smart MoFo.
But you might have shown the last paragraph of his piece:
And where is our president? Afraid of “meddling.” Afraid to take sides between the head-breaking, women-shackling exporters of terror — and the people in the street yearning to breathe free. This from a president who fancies himself the restorer of America’s moral standing in the world.

Ouch! That’s gonna leave a mark.

143 VegasRick  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:22:12am

re: #127 Ward Cleaver

Obama is starting to make Jimmy Carter look good.

Man I wish I could laugh at that.

144 apachegunner  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:22:32am

re: #111 lawhawk

We’re getting what 52% of the nation thought it wanted (or was jived into thinking by an uncritical media). Buyer’s remorse is going to be quite the bitch.


ahhh, wouldn’t that be 52% of the less than 35% that voted?

145 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:22:54am

I miss the Cold War. At least the Soviets loved their children.

146 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:23:30am

OT:
Pakistani jets have attacked 3 Taliban “facilities”:

Pakistani jet fighters flattened at least three suspected Taliban training facilities in the volatile South Waziristan tribal region Friday, killing or wounding several insurgents, two senior intelligence officials said.

The Taliban also opened fire on troops elsewhere in the mountainous area, starting a gunbattle that lasted hours, said an intelligence official, without giving any further details. The fight marked the first ground fighting since the military started softening up the area with artillery several days ago in preparation for an expected offensive.

Other ground troops were moving into position around strongholds of Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, said Nematullah Khan, a local government official in South Waziristan, where an armed forces buildup has been under way for several days.

Preparing the battlefield.

147 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:23:35am

re: #145 MandyManners

I miss the Cold War. At least the Soviets loved their children.

Right, Sting?

148 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:23:35am

re: #143 VegasRick

Man I wish I could laugh at that.

I know; it’s sad, isn’t it?

149 Racer X  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:23:41am

Mr. Dinnerjacket - TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!

150 iLikeCandy  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:23:44am

re: #57 J.S.

this is one time where I have to respectfully disagree with Charles Krauthammer…(I just don’t see how the U.S. could say/do anything which wouldn’t result in something far more “problematic”…)

For example?

151 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:24:19am

re: #57 J.S.

this is one time where I have to respectfully disagree with Charles Krauthammer…(I just don’t see how the U.S. could say/do anything which wouldn’t result in something far more “problematic”…)

* * * *
Wow, just wow. Don’t want you in my foxhole. Morale killer.

152 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:24:28am

re: #96 Idle Drifter

I just sent you a mental downding :)

153 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:24:30am

re: #149 Racer X

Mr. Dinnerjacket - TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!

I’d like to think he’d say, “Mr. Dinnerjacket, shut the f**k up.”

154 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:24:38am

re: #97 buzzsawmonkey
All that you say is possible, but I’ll posit a simpler explanation.

Obama is unwilling to engage Iran militarily, full stop.

While he probably would prefer if Iran didn’t have nukes, he simply isn’t willing to do anything about stopping them other than jawbone.

He’s already said he wanted the US to entirely eliminate its own nuclear arsenal (which just goes to show his utter naivete when it comes to deterrence and arms).

155 SurferDoc  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:25:16am

re: #92 MandyManners

I wonder how he would’ve answered the Kitty Dukakis question in a debate.

I’m sure he would come up with some suitably oily bullshit because that is his stock in trade. Actually dealing with tough issues that require timely, forceful responses are something else.

156 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:25:43am

re: #145 MandyManners

I miss the Cold War. At least the Soviets loved their children.

Stalin didn’t

157 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:25:51am

re: #125 Spider Mensch

dabgummit! the obama administration has bigger fish to fry than sticking up for real democracy in iran…they have there hands full getting General Mills straightened out on Cheerios! How dare they claim it helps against high colesterol! Wheee! lookey the pretty rocket flying over Hawaii!

/

Obama is preparing his Thank you note as we speak for Kim Jong Il: “Dear Kim, thank you for adding to the lovely firework display in Hawaii. How much do we owe you for that?. Your dearest friend, Barack.”

158 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:25:53am

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

Without disagreeing with your basic point, I’m not totally sure about that. English is something of a lingua franca (yes, that’s a weird statement), and it’s not uncommon to see English signage at international rallies.

I know exactly what you mean by lingua franca. historically it does mean “the french language” but it has mutated to mean “the language of diplomacy.”

But first, i doubt that iranians are wont to learn to speak english. Could be wrong. But even if it was just them seeking to speak in an international language, even that is indicative that they are seeking international aid.

And for that matter what is also telling is that according to people who know, they are not writing their signs in arabic, which you have to assume is widely understood in the middle east because of the desire to read the koran in its original language.

So my gut says that the fact it is in english is itself important.

159 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:26:17am

re: #153 MrSilverDragon

I’d like to think he’d say, “Mr. Dinnerjacket, shut the f**k up.”

Ahmadinjad, go jump in a well.
(Jumps in Mahdi’s well, Mahdi comes out just to get away from him)
//

160 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:26:34am

The uh… “Supreme Leader” sounds like one of those guys that justifies assaulting a woman based upon what she’s wearing.

Uh …wait.

161 songbird  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:26:36am

Ok Ok! Many of us think Obama is useless on domestic and foreign policy. Many of us are shocked at how quickly our nations finances are going down the toilet and how damned rapidly we are hurtling towards becoming a socialist nation. Barely a day goes by when Obama and HIS Congress (on both sides) join together to weaken our nation.

What can we do about it? How can we stop it? There are enough of us here among the Lizardim who are leaders in our fields and leaders in our communities, who have the ability to influence public opinion even on a small scale. What does the combined lizard brain have to say about changing the direction of our country?

162 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:26:45am

re: #83 Charles

I’m not surprised by any of this — Obama made it very clear during the election that he was going to behave exactly how he’s behaving now.

he did make it very clear to those of us who could see that the voting present and non-committal rhetoric and platitudes did not mean he would be a thoughtful balanced leader but rather, a self-serving weak bumbler.
he fooled a lot of people who wanted to be fooled.

163 VegasRick  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:26:56am

re: #153 MrSilverDragon

I’d like to think he’d say, “Mr. Dinnerjacket, shut the f**k up.”

“Mr. Dinnerjacket, shut stand the f**k up.”
Oh, you are standing.
“Then, Mr. Dinnerjacket, shut sit the f**k down.”

164 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:26:58am

re: #124 realwest

I agree with you 100%. That would be the best policy position.

165 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:27:03am

re: #130 Robert O.

I really hate to repeat it for the umpteenth time, but I have very good sources tell me that for the US government to get involved would instantly suck all the oxygen out the room. Ahmadinejad, Khamenei and the rest of the thugs are itching for an excuse to violently put the protests to an end. US involvement would provide precisely that excuse.

Obama is simply not in a position to say anything other than the very carefully couched words he has used so far. That doesn’t mean US *citizens* cannot help Iranians by doing things like setting up proxy servers so they can access information. That would be the best thing to happen and some people are doing it. The US *government*, on the other hand, cannot get itself involved.


Its the old excuse.

Do me a favor; go tell Jimmy Carter that his advice is getting stale.

166 Lynn B.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:27:19am

re: #97 buzzsawmonkey

I really hope you’re wrong about that conclusion.

For so very many reasons.

167 Darwin Akbar  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:27:36am

The reality is that Obama is always unprepared for changes in world events (witness his robust comments to the North Korean nukes). For him, all of these world events are just distractions from his goal to turn the US into a socialist basket case by nationalizing the auto industry and the banks while imposing Euro-style health care, Euro-style financial regulations and Euro-style taxation on the population. He really doesn’t care about North Korea or Iran going nuclear as long as they don’t nuke us during his term at a time he can’t blame it on Cheney or Rush Limbaugh.

And let’ just go ahead and write next week’s NYT and WaPo editorials, as it really doesn’t matter how events play out:

“Obama’s coolness in the face of a potentially serious crisis in Iran is evidence of his grace under fire and a welcome approach from the confrontational style of his predecessor, says a group of leading foreign policy experts.”

168 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:27:37am

re: #152 experiencedtraveller

I just sent you a mental downding :)

Well, I’ll give you a UpDing for no hard feelings. ;)

169 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:29:15am

re: #167 Darwin Akbar

The reality is that Obama is always unprepared for changes in world events (witness his robust comments to the North Korean nukes). For him, all of these world events are just distractions from his goal to turn the US into a socialist basket case by nationalizing the auto industry and the banks while imposing Euro-style health care, Euro-style financial regulations and Euro-style taxation on the population. He really doesn’t care about North Korea or Iran going nuclear as long as they don’t nuke us during his term at a time he can’t blame it on Cheney or Rush Limbaugh.

And let’ just go ahead and write next week’s NYT and WaPo editorials, as it really doesn’t matter how events play out:

“Obama’s coolness in the face of a potentially serious crisis in Iran is evidence of his grace under fire and a welcome approach from the confrontational style of his predecessor, says a group of leading foreign policy experts.”

and they will be just as dead as the rest of us….all Oblather

170 Gang of One  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:29:56am

re: #1 albusteve

present!”

“Absent!”

FTFY

171 HippieforLife  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:30:03am

re: #28 looking closely

I wish I could give you 1000 updings! Right on.

172 DaddyG  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:30:14am

Mr President,

Do we really believe that all men are endowed with inalienable rights of life liberty and pursuit of happiness or just those of us who are lucky enough to be born in the US?

This is the moral equivalent of watching a bully beat up his spouse in public and not getting involved because its their private family business.

If Americans of a few generations ago had this much courage Europe would be speaking German and the Jews would be a relic in a museum.

173 alegrias  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:30:17am

re: #72 Idle Drifter

Agreed. To what gain is it to the United States or more importantly to President Obama to vote present on the Iran elections debacle? He’s not afraid to take sides on other issues often answering to sharp criticisms with “We won” as if that ends the debate.Why the deafening silence now?

* * * *
Pres. Obama only fights people who disagree with him!

“Guns don’t kill people, FOX NEWS kills people” is the blog thread at The Weekly Standard.

Robert Gibbs repeated the “WE WON” meme yesterday when someone mentioned Pres. Bush’s comments that government doesn’t make prosperity. Gibbs actually said this issue was “settled” or “decided” when Americans voted for Obama!

Yeah, and Obama has been “making prosperity happen” like never before, since Jan 20th. NOT.

174 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:30:20am
175 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:30:24am

I think people are putting too much emphasis on speeches and words. Obama’s words aren’t powerful enough to change anything and I really don’t think it makes a big difference either way. Both are valid strategies but in the end it just doesn’t make any difference.

176 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:30:42am

re: #83 Charles
Charles, I haven’t been able to keep up with this thread, but I would like to respectfully ask you, although you’re not surprised by how President Obama is handling this, do you think he’s handling it correctly?

177 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:30:53am
178 Mr. Sandman  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:31:04am

I meant to put this post here rather than on the other thread:

The efficacy of the protests are more likely to be hobbled than helped if they are viewed by the populace in Iran as stemming from “stooges” for the West. However much your personal emotional urges might be addressed by more forceful language in support of the protests by Obama, that does not speak to their effect in Iran. The protests must be seen among the populace as stemming from internal forces, otherwise they are almost certain fail (no guarantee of success in any case, but almost a certain guarantee of failure if Obama does what you are saying at this point).

Henry Kissinger even agrees with these basic points, and thinks Obama’s handling the situation correctly:

[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

179 Kragar  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:31:29am

re: #167 Darwin Akbar

And let’ just go ahead and write next week’s NYT and WaPo editorials, as it really doesn’t matter how events play out:

“Obama’s coolness in the face of a potentially serious crisis in Iran is evidence of his grace under fire and a welcome approach from the confrontational style of his predecessor, says a group of leading foreign policy experts.”

The perfect example of “better to be thought of as an idiot than speaking and removing all doubt.”

180 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:32:00am

After the passage of events, I’m withdrawing the “well done” I gave for Obama’s first statement. It could have served a purpose, as a non-confrontational tap on the door … while the SWAT team masses in the street and the alley.

No such further undertakings have appeared. I am now compelled to believe that Obama was (past tense) in avoidance mode.

Mr. President, have you no balls, or do you simply care more about your own intended agenda than the common people of Iran?

/YOUR . LEGACY . WILL . SUFFER .

/and Biden was right

181 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:32:11am

re: #138 Lynn B.

Let me quote from Krauthammer for you:

“And what do they hear from the president of the United States? Silence. Then, worse. Three days in, the president makes clear his policy: continued “dialogue” with their clerical masters.

Dialogue with a regime that is breaking heads, shooting demonstrators, expelling journalists, arresting activists. Engagement with — which inevitably confers legitimacy upon — leaders elected in a process that begins as a sham (only four handpicked candidates permitted out of 476) and ends in overt rigging.

Then, after treating this popular revolution as an inconvenience to the real business of Obama-Khamenei negotiations, the president speaks favorably of “some initial reaction from the Supreme Leader that indicates he understands the Iranian people have deep concerns about the election.”

Where to begin? “Supreme Leader”? Note the abject solicitousness with which the American president confers this honorific on a clerical dictator who, even as his minions attack demonstrators, offers to examine some returns in some electoral districts — a farcical fix that will do nothing to alter the fraudulence of the election.

And where is our president? Afraid of “meddling.” Afraid to take sides between the head-breaking, women-shackling exporters of terror — and the people in the street yearning to breathe free. This from a president who fancies himself the restorer of America’s moral standing in the world.”

An you don’t think Obama is siding with the regime?

182 Racer X  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:32:30am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

I think people are putting too much emphasis on speeches and words. Obama’s words aren’t powerful enough to change anything and I really don’t think it makes a big difference either way. Both are valid strategies but in the end it just doesn’t make any difference.

WHAT!?!

All the guy has ever accomplished is words.

Period.

183 Buck  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:33:34am

re: #130 Robert O.

I really hate to repeat it for the umpteenth time, but I have very good sources tell me that for the US government to get involved would instantly suck all the oxygen out the room. Ahmadinejad, Khamenei and the rest of the thugs are itching for an excuse to violently put the protests to an end. US involvement would provide precisely that excuse.

So have you decided what you will say when Ahmadinejad, Khamenei and the rest of the thugs violently put the protests to an end?

Remember that sometimes these dictators look for signs that the west will look the other way. If they feel they will be able to get away with it, THEN they get violent.

Pointing out the human right abuses, and that violence against protesters IS NOT acceptable might give them that excuse as well, BUT they might just do it anyway.

Better that the free world is on record as doing the right thing…before the slaughter. Instead of after (like Rwanda and Darfur)

184 WinterCat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:33:39am

Obama: Iran Not A Threat, No Need To Worry About “Little” Countries Like North Korea And Venezuela

Memory lane…
Your text to link…

185 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:33:58am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

I think people are putting too much emphasis on speeches and words. Obama’s words aren’t powerful enough to change anything and I really don’t think it makes a big difference either way. Both are valid strategies but in the end it just doesn’t make any difference.

You’re asking why it matters.

It matters, because having the leader of the free world (a position that again, Obama seems to have abdicated) support the cause of freedom energizes and motivates those fighting for it. They’ll fight harder and work harder if they know they aren’t alone, and if the USA will back them.

It matters even more when they are under military suppression and morale is being crushed.

186 Lynn B.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:34:29am

re: #114 Summer

I agree that Obama definitely has to say something more at this point. I would, however, rather see the French and a few others come out first before Obama does - for obvious reasons. And I’d honestly want him to find out from the Iranian protest groups if they actually want that to happen or not.

However, I think Obama and we here also have another problem. The fact is that Mousavi is not hugely different on most issues we care deeply about. His name has become a byword for “freedom”, and his campaign has become more than it ever originally was intended to be. Perhaps he really sees an opportunity to change some of his fundamentals, but we haven’t seen any sign of that yet (again, for obvious reasons). But the worst thing would be for us to back this cause, succeed, and then find out that on some of the things we’re negotiating on…that he’s just as fanatical as the others.

I doubt he’d be as bad, but you could imagine the disaster that would be for the U.S. if he were even half as bad. Honestly, I think Obama is waiting for some assurances of some sort. I sure wish he took a more proactive role in getting them (or not), though. There isn’t much time left before this either dies, or becomes the real thing. It would be nice to out-think the Mullahs just for once this time.

That’s a straw man at this point. It’s pretty clear that ship has sailed.

The stakes for the theocracy are existential. Khameini chose a course of confrontation, and thus the regime will either, as Krauthammer opines today, brutally repress the protests or the regime will be extinguished. Any possibility of the protests succeeding but the outcome limited to merely the installment of Mousavi as President was extinguished by Khameini today.

h/t dhg4 on the spin-offs for the overnight thread

187 wintercat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:35:00am
188 Pianobuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:35:16am

Egypt: International Community’s Caution is Sending the Wrong Message to the Iranian Regime

In its June 18, 2009 editorial, the Egyptian government daily Al-Ahram criticized the international community’s cautious stance on the unfolding events in Iran. According to the editorial, this caution gives the Iranian regime the impression that the international community will overlook the crackdown on opposition protests so as not to adversely affect talks on the nuclear issue.

Following is a translation of the editorial in full:

“Events in Iran have followed in close succession since the announcement that fundamentalist candidate Ahmadinejad was elected to a second term in the presidential elections. Between the mass demonstrations [of the reformists] decrying electoral fraud, and the counter-demonstrations accusing the reformists of allegiance to the West, the international community has stood confused about what position to take towards this democratic outpouring in a country that is on the threshold of acquiring nuclear capabilities, something all international and regional actors consider an unwelcome development.

“The caution that has characterized the position of the principle international actors towards the abuses occurring in the streets of Iran, up to and including the killing [of protesters], may be sending the wrong message to the ruling powers there. The upshot of this message is that the strong desire to reach a political resolution to the Iranian nuclear crisis and to avoid a clash with the Iranian authorities is a goal that supersedes all other considerations - even if these other considerations be support for international principles and human rights, and the urging of the [Iranian] government to stop the violence and bloodshed and to lend an ear to the views of the Iranian opposition. [This opposition] has expressed its rejection of the election results and its resistance to a second term for the current president, primarily for domestic reasons, and principle among them [Ahmadinejad’s] failed management of the economy.”

189 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:35:26am

re: #127 Ward Cleaver

Obama is starting to make Jimmy Carter look good.


Uh, Ward, respectfully, let’s not get carried away here.
Don’t forget, President Obama has 3+ years left to go.
He needs to shoot for something!

190 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:35:38am

re: #167 Darwin Akbar

The reality is that Obama is always unprepared for changes in world events (witness his robust comments to the North Korean nukes). For him, all of these world events are just distractions from his goal to turn the US into a socialist basket case by nationalizing the auto industry and the banks while imposing Euro-style health care, Euro-style financial regulations and Euro-style taxation on the population. He really doesn’t care about North Korea or Iran going nuclear as long as they don’t nuke us during his term at a time he can’t blame it on Cheney or Rush Limbaugh.

And let’ just go ahead and write next week’s NYT and WaPo editorials, as it really doesn’t matter how events play out:

Obama’s coolness in the face of a potentially serious crisis in Iran is evidence of his grace under fire and a welcome approach from the confrontational style of his predecessor, says a group of leading foreign policy experts.”

Obama, “Now we still have 5 minutes before the ICBM hits, and we still have parts of New York that aren’t glowing too badly…let’s not allow these distractions to put us away from the real pressing issue that Bush’s failed policies have ruined our image. It’s time for introspection and time to look at ourselves in the mirror to determine what we did to deserve this…”

/moonbat off…*ouch…my brain!*….

191 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:35:45am

Repost from prior dead thread.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

192 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:35:47am

re: #181 quickjustice


An you don’t think Obama is siding with the regime?


Perhaps this quote will help illuminate the situation:

I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.

Elie Wiesel.

193 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:36:08am

re: #185 looking closely

Sorry but I just can’t work up any outrage over this.

194 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:37:29am

re: #130 Robert O.
Well I’d agree with your sources about getting involved on the ground, but stating that this violence on the part of the Iranian government is against all the principles of Freedom loving people everywhere IS POSSIBLE and should be said.

195 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:37:36am
196 Mr. Sandman  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:38:04am

I would also add that even if you disagree with this strategy of not saying too much on these grounds, it is rather reprehensible to take cheap shots, like Krauthammer and others are doing, e.g., to suggest that Obama’s “afraid” to take sides, is “voting present,” etc. It’s obvious he’s doing what he’s doing on the grounds that he thinks it’s the best reaction to help the protests, which is a respectable position, held by many Iran experts. He is obviously trying to see that the protests are as successful as possible— to suggest it’s for other reasons than the intention to not harm their efficacy, but out of “weakness” or even because he doesn’t want them to be successful—even if you don’t agree that this is the right strategy—is ridiculous.

197 albusteve  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:38:57am

re: #195 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe if we threw someone connected to Ron Paul into the mix, you could manage it.

RP voted against Congressional condemnation…he and KT have something in common after all

198 jaunte  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:39:27am

re: #195 buzzsawmonkey

Ron Paul would probably agree it would be impetuous to take sides in the affairs of a foreign country. So Obama is acting like a Paulian.

199 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:40:45am

re: #193 Killgore Trout

Sorry but I just can’t work up any outrage over this.

Its not your skull being crushed.

The message being sent to potential Iranian revolutionaries here is that they are on their own. The world’s largest and greatest Democracy not only isn’t going to help them, but is going to passively side with the theocratic fascist gov’t that is oppressing them.

Now would words by Obama alone be enough to help the Persian people? Probably not, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

If Obama is (as he claims) ducking out of this because he doesn’t want to alienate the Mullahs, who are almost certainly going to be left standing when this is over, then he’s missing a big opportunity. When this is done, the USA is still going to be the “Great Satan”…that’s not going to change.

200 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:41:35am

re: #193 Killgore Trout

Sorry but I just can’t work up any outrage over this.

Yes, your and Ron Paul. He wasn’t interested in making any statement to the Iranian people either. Twice a day, a broken clock is…

201 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:41:48am

Sorry I meant “will words alone be enough to FREE” the Persian people…I think they would help.

202 WinterCat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:41:57am

re: #196 Mr. Sandman

Do you consider criticisms of Obama in general to be cheap shots?

203 soxfan4life  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #199 looking closely

Its not your skull being crushed.

The message being sent to potential Iranian revolutionaries here is that they are on their own. The world’s largest and greatest Democracy not only isn’t going to help them, but is going to passively side with the theocratic fascist gov’t that is oppressing them.

Now would words by Obama alone be enough to help the Persian people? Probably not, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

If Obama is (as he claims) ducking out of this because he doesn’t want to alienate the Mullahs, who are almost certainly going to be left standing when this is over, then he’s missing a big opportunity. When this is done, the USA is still going to be the “Great Satan”…that’s not going to change.


Obviously speaking out against negative stereotypes against radical Islam is more important than speaking out in favor of democracy anywhere.

204 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:43:43am

re: #195 buzzsawmonkey

The paulians think this is all a zionist New World Order Plot. They aren’t much help.

205 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:44:54am

re: #175 Killgore Trout
I agree with you Killgore that words won’t really make any difference in the outcome, but words do have meaning and so far President Obama’s words mean little if anything.
France, Germany, GB, the EU and the US House of Representatives have seen fit to “say words” - I’d like history to record that when push came to shove America would not stand silently by and watch what’s happening in Iran - see my #41 for what I mean. I DON’T think the US would be Meddling in that statement, I do think those words make up part of the historical record and wish they’d be said for America’s side of the historical record.

206 WinterCat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:45:05am

Great speeches throughout history have been designed to boost morale. Surely, to give a speech about freedom would give the people of Iran something to cling to, something to look toward, be a shining beacon, a light in the darkness, something to hope for. Strange how the man who built his entire career on speeches is now silent.

207 tfc3rid  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:45:44am

To me, this is a major difference in mindset…

Obama and leftists believe that the Islamic World will seriously work toward peace when the Palestinian situation is ‘resolved’.

Folks on the right believe that the Islamic World will seriously work toward peace when the Mullahs are out of power in Iran and Iran is castrated.

208 tfc3rid  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:46:05am

re: #197 albusteve

RP voted against Congressional condemnation…he and KT have something in common after all

He was the only idiot against it… Crackhead.

209 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:46:44am

re: #193 Killgore Trout

Like Obama, you remain deaf to, and unmoved by, this:

[Link: online.wsj.com…]

“I live in the dorms at Tehran University. I was asleep when Basij militiamen entered my room early Monday morning, demolished everything and started beating us. A man with a long beard broke my notebook and said: “It is destroyed, this book that you were using against Islam and Ahmadinejad.”

They beat students more when they saw posters of Mousavi in their rooms. And they carried big knives and guns.

They also attacked the women’s dormitory next door. The Supreme Leader calls us rioters, but I want to ask him: How can sleeping women in their beds be rioters? Is this the Islamic justice he believes in?

President Obama’s speech [to the Muslim world] was good; he says that he will support us. He also said that nations must decide the fate of their countries by themselves. I agree with him, but now we don’t have any power to change the situation, so we need help and attention.

We ask the president not to accept this coup d’etat.”

210 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:46:53am

re: #196 Mr. Sandman

I would also add that even if you disagree with this strategy of not saying too much on these grounds, it is rather reprehensible to take cheap shots, like Krauthammer and others are doing, e.g., to suggest that Obama’s “afraid” to take sides, is “voting present,” etc. It’s obvious he’s doing what he’s doing on the grounds that he thinks it’s the best reaction to help the protests, which is a respectable position, held by many Iran experts. He is obviously trying to see that the protests are as successful as possible— to suggest it’s for other reasons than the intention to not harm their efficacy, but out of “weakness” or even because he doesn’t want them to be successful—even if you don’t agree that this is the right strategy—is ridiculous.


Obama is taking a position of taking no position.

How is that any different than voting “present”?

Its not a “cheap shot” to point out that Obama’s leadership on this issue is entirely absent.

Further, if he wants the protests to be “successful”, just MAYBE he might say a few things to encourage the protesters, like “The USA supports the right of the Iranian people to full and free elections”, etc.

211 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:47:31am

Speaking of Ron Paul…..
House condemns Tehran crackdown on protesters

Rep. Ron Paul, a Texas libertarian, cast the sole opposing vote because he said it wasn’t the House’s place to judge “events thousands of miles away about which we know very little.”

Tea Party!

212 iLikeCandy  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:47:53am

re: #196 Mr. Sandman

I would also add that even if you disagree with this strategy of not saying too much on these grounds, it is rather reprehensible to take cheap shots, like Krauthammer and others are doing, e.g., to suggest that Obama’s “afraid” to take sides, is “voting present,” etc. It’s obvious he’s doing what he’s doing on the grounds that he thinks it’s the best reaction to help the protests, which is a respectable position, held by many Iran experts. He is obviously trying to see that the protests are as successful as possible— to suggest it’s for other reasons than the intention to not harm their efficacy, but out of “weakness” or even because he doesn’t want them to be successful—even if you don’t agree that this is the right strategy—is ridiculous.

All this obviosity escapes me.

213 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:48:07am

re: #209 quickjustice

Strawman.

214 tfc3rid  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:48:33am

re: #211 Killgore Trout

Speaking of Ron Paul…..
House condemns Tehran crackdown on protesters


Tea Party!

I would say that 95 out of 100 Tea Party protesters would say Paul is dead wrong here…

215 Lynn B.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:48:36am

re: #181 quickjustice

Let me quote from Krauthammer for you:


An you don’t think Obama is siding with the regime?

No. I don’t. I think, as many others here have suggested, he is trying to ignore to the best of his ability this “distraction” from his treasured domestic agenda.

This, BTW, is why there’s really no contradiction between the pressure he’s putting on Israel to do what he believes it takes to make the Israeli-palestinian conflict go away (he’s dead wrong) and his see-no-evil approach to the mullahs (ditto).

216 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:49:24am

You can tell Krauthammer doesn’t have a strong argument because he completely avoids even a single mention of Obama’s rationale for remaining on the sidelines.

Obama is avoiding inserting himself into the situation precisely because of what the “supreme leader” said in his speech at friday prayers. Khamenei attempted to label the uprising as the result of western interference and “zionists” rather than the will of the Iranian people. By refusing to directly engage the U.S. in the situation, he has exposed the fact that all Khameni has left is the strawman of U.S. meddling. When Obama steered clear, and Khamenei continued to blame external forces for the unrest, Khamenei was stripped bare in front of his entire nation.

Where in the article does Krauthammer address this strategy and attempt to refute it? Nowhere. He simply skirts the subject altogether, because he has nothing. If Krauthammer addressed Obama’s reasons for staying out of the Iranian fray, and managed to do draw his same conclusion, I would at least respect his position.

Because he simply avoids the topic altogether it’s abundantly clear that he was bent on attacking Obama no matter which path he chose. The column criticizing Obama for “jeopardizing the lives Iranian revolutionaries by inserting himself into the situation for personal glory” is probably still sitting on Krauthammer’s hard drive.

217 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:49:33am

re: #196 Mr. Sandman

Like Charles, I don’t doubt that Obama is doing exactly what he said he’d do if elected: engage the tyrannical regime in Iran. That’s his intention, and that’s what he’s doing.

A majority of the people of Iran beg to differ, Mr. President. Not that this will deter you.

218 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:50:10am

re: #205 realwest


I’d like history to record that when push came to shove America would not stand silently by and watch what’s happening in Iran -


Don’t confuse actions and words. They are two very different things. What ever actual involvement we have with what’s going on is going to be secret. It might be a long time before we find out what actions (or lack of action) has taken place.

219 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:50:20am

re: #211 Killgore Trout

Speaking of Ron Paul…..
House condemns Tehran crackdown on protesters

Tea Party!

Agrees with you.

220 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:50:34am

re: #213 Killgore Trout

Strawman.

Truth!

221 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:50:47am
222 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:52:47am

re: #213 Killgore Trout

Explain. What the Iranian student said is setting up a “straw man”, or my description of your studied and deliberate indifference to the plight of the Iranian protesters is a “straw man”?

You’re a very cold bastard, aren’t you?

223 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:53:58am

re: #218 Killgore Trout
I agree with you Killgore and I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear. BUT - the US should not remain silent on the killings and beatings being handed out to the “dissedents” over the elections. I don’t mean for us to get involved in any way other than with words, but I do think we NEED to speak out about this.

224 Mr. Sandman  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:54:00am

re: #210 looking closely

You have poor reading comprehension. Read my posts above (look closer), and if you understand them you’ll see it’s not a matter of “voting present” but handling the situation in a way as not to harm the odds for the best outcome.

225 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:54:10am

re: #216 drcordell

…When Obama steered clear, and Khamenei continued to blame external forces for the unrest, Khamenei was stripped bare in front of his entire nation…

Yea, that certainly put the fear of Allah into Khamenei. You idealism has muddied the realism of what Iran is, and what is going on. It’s so funny, idealist always wind up calling on the realist to pick up the pieces when the shit finally hits the fan.

We’ll cover you back, Dr. Cordell.

226 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:55:05am

Since you guys (except realwaest) are interested in senseless squabbling I’ll just head on to the next thread.

227 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:55:21am

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

Feh.

Yeah, exactly. Feh. Don’t address any of my arguments just ignore them. Krauthammer is that you?

228 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:55:36am
229 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:56:06am

re: #213 Killgore Trout

Strawman.

No, it isn’t. Just a drive-by from me today. Sorry to post and run.

230 realwest  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:56:26am

and I’m gonna head to lunch. I hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.
And I pray that the situation in Iran can and is resolved without further bloodshed.

231 medaura18586  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:56:38am

The “not to be seen as meddling” excuse is void at this point, because the Mullahs are already accusing “Western infiltrators” of meddling. So whether we actually meddle or not, we’re being portrayed as if we were. So why not just go ahead and do it, to get the fruits?

232 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:56:45am

re: #97 buzzsawmonkey

… Obama … wants to preserve the … scenario …

I agree (whatever the details might be.)
Obama’s nervousness is due to this thing upsetting his applecart.

He’s utterly inexperienced, tunnel-visioned as a compensation, and apparently incapable of landing on his feet.

His mannerisms when talking about Iran have become those of someone way outside his comfort zone.

I’m afraid that if presented with another 9/11 on American soil, he’d wind up in a state close to hysteria.

233 LoWil  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:57:02am

re: #157 Oh no…Sand People!

Obama is preparing his Thank you note as we speak for Kim Jong Il: “Dear Kim, thank you for adding to the lovely firework display in Hawaii. How much do we owe you for that?. Your dearest friend, Barack.”

You forgot the “xoxo”

234 descolada9  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:57:15am

Man, how I miss Reagan’s resolve when he was telling Gorbechev to tear down walls, supporting the Solidarity movement in Poland, etc. As for Sarkozy, I have never been so proud of a Frenchman in my life (well, except when Chirac blew up a Greenpeace ship…)

235 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:57:50am

re: #216 drcordell

By refusing to directly engage the U.S. in the situation, he has exposed the fact that all Khameni has left is the strawman of U.S. meddling.


That and the thousands of armed soldiers the Mullahs are using to crack skulls. Do you think that’s going to stop because Obama has declined to take sides?

When Obama steered clear, and Khamenei continued to blame external forces for the unrest, Khamenei was stripped bare in front of his entire nation.


He was “stripped bare” when the election results were announced, and flew in the face of reality. He’d blame the West regardless of the extent of its involvement. So what? If he doesn’t have evidence, he’ll manufacture it, as the Iranians always do.


Where in the article does Krauthammer address this strategy and attempt to refute it? Nowhere. He simply skirts the subject altogether, because he has nothing. If Krauthammer addressed Obama’s reasons for staying out of the Iranian fray, and managed to do draw his same conclusion, I would at least respect his position.


And where do you refute Krauthammer’s argument?

Nobody is saying Obama has no strategy…its just the wrong one.

236 Zimriel  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:58:10am

re: #50 taxfreekiller

gonna have some congress critters by the ear tomorrow…..

any suggestions

all of the R’s

Read whatever Joe Lieberman says about the Near East; and when you talk to your Congressperson, cite Lieberman’s points and ask him to do some more of that stuff he said.

That’s pretty much what I did.

237 J.S.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:58:43am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

I’m opposed to Obama getting involved because words do have consequences. That’s the problem — just as it was the “problem” back in the first Iraq war when another Bush told the Kurds to rise up! Well, what happened? Saddam gunned them down using helicopter gunships…remember that one? Words have consequences.

238 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 10:58:59am

re: #216 drcordell

Obama is staying out of the verbal fray because he intends to engage the regime at a convenient later time. He said so during the election. He has no secret agenda to overthrow the mullahs. Such a conceit is fabrication, pure and simple.

239 Mr. Sandman  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:00:26am

re: #228 buzzsawmonkey

Here we go with another political cheapshot. That’s obviously not the only possible reason to explain why Obama is handling the situation the way he is. You completely ignore the reasons that better explain this behavior that I list in the above posts—reasons that Henry Kissinger agree with. Those are the much more probable reasons.

240 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:00:35am

re: #224 Mr. Sandman

You have poor reading comprehension. Read my posts above (look closer), and if you understand them you’ll see it’s not a matter of “voting present” but handling the situation in a way as not to harm the odds for the best outcome.

I understand your point.
I disagree with it…strongly.
The leader of the free world is supposed to support freedom, not sit on his hands because he thinks fascists are going to distort his positions.
Funny how that works, no?
Next time around, the Persian dissidents are going to remember that they got zero moral support from the USA.

241 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:01:10am

Why would anyone expect President Obama to become an advocate for freedom? Here or anywhere else? It’s anathema to everything he’s ever believed in.

All Obama’s ever done (besides write weird self-absorbed autobiographies) is to soft peddle statism and place restrictions on individual freedoms.

242 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:01:36am

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

Yea, that certainly put the fear of Allah into Khamenei. You idealism has muddied the realism of what Iran is, and what is going on. It’s so funny, idealist always wind up calling on the realist to pick up the pieces when the shit finally hits the fan.

We’ll cover you back, Dr. Cordell.

You certainly aren’t a realist. A realist would acknowledge that that Iran’s logical choice is to continue its nuclear weapons program, as a nuke is the only way they can guarantee they will not be invaded.

243 Lynn B.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:02:15am

re: #240 looking closely

I understand your point.
I disagree with it…strongly.
The leader of the free world is supposed to support freedom, not sit on his hands because he thinks fascists are going to distort his positions.
Funny how that works, no?
Next time around, the Persian dissidents are going to remember that they got zero moral support from the USA.

That bears repeating.

244 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:02:38am
245 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:03:31am

re: #99 MandyManners

re: #101 Honorary Yooper

Heh.

246 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:03:53am
247 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:04:45am

re: #242 drcordell

You certainly aren’t a realist. A realist would acknowledge that that Iran’s logical choice is to continue its nuclear weapons program, as a nuke is the only way they can guarantee they will not be invaded.

Funny, I wasn’t even commenting about their nuclear weapons program, was I? I was commenting on YOUR take on the Iranian election and Obama’s lack of any statement on the outcome.

You had nothing to say, nothing to debate me about, so, typical of a liberal, you changed the whole subject.

I got it, it’s the reality of what liberals do. Not able to debate the subject, then change it.

248 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:05:02am

re: #228 buzzsawmonkey

Obama appears to believe the “best outcome” is for his hoped-for partners in empty yak-yak to retain their iron grip on Iran.

That is the only explanation for his sitting with his thumbs up his ass.

No, it’s not. He believes that the best way to support the demonstrators is to steer clear, lest their grassroots movement become tainted with the appearance of U.S. backing. Just because you refuse to acknowledge Obama’s reasoning doesn’t mean you can draw the conclusion that he wishes the current regime to remain intact.

249 Zimriel  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:05:10am

re: #216 drcordell

Obama is avoiding inserting himself into the situation precisely because of what the “supreme leader” said in his speech at friday prayers. Khamenei attempted to label the uprising as the result of western interference and “zionists” rather than the will of the Iranian people. By refusing to directly engage the U.S. in the situation, he has exposed the fact that all Khameni has left is the strawman of U.S. meddling. When Obama steered clear, and Khamenei continued to blame external forces for the unrest, Khamenei was stripped bare in front of his entire nation.

Where in the article does Krauthammer address this strategy and attempt to refute it? Nowhere. He simply skirts the subject altogether, because he has nothing. If Krauthammer addressed Obama’s reasons for staying out of the Iranian fray, and managed to do draw his same conclusion, I would at least respect his position.

Because he simply avoids the topic altogether it’s abundantly clear that he was bent on attacking Obama no matter which path he chose. The column criticizing Obama for “jeopardizing the lives Iranian revolutionaries by inserting himself into the situation for personal glory” is probably still sitting on Krauthammer’s hard drive.

It would be nice is this was some master plan by Obama to get the government-appointed “Ayatollah” Khamanei to make an ass of himself. However I see no evidence that Obama has such a plan. I see nowhere where Obama has even claimed to have such a plan. Obama is engaging with a tyrant because, that’s what he’s always said he’d do.

I also see no evidence that Krauthammer is a hack who is just attacking Obama for the sake of it. That’s an obnoxious charge, and it’s earned you a downding.

250 Lynn B.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:09:21am

re: #244 buzzsawmonkey

Got news for you. Khamenei was already “stripped bare in front of his entire nation”—who do you think is out there in the streets? Are you really so demented as to think that people who are braving clubs and bullets, and sending desperate reports out of their beleaguered nation when and as they can to let the world know what it is happening are not aware that this is an indigenous movement, and not the work of outside “meddlers?” Do you really think that a statement of support from the putative head of the “Free World” would not hearten them—and that they would know damned well that it is not he, nor the US, that has supported them thus far?

In the meantime, the Craven-in-Chief might want to reconsider the old adage that one might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. If the US (with which, by the way, the current regime has been at war for the last 30 years) were to throw its support to the demonstrators, it could be instrumental in undoing the vile legacy of President Carter. As long as we’re being accused of that, why not step up?

Right on.

But those who have bought into the mindset that the support of the U.S. is a “taint” (as drcordell says in #248) are never going to be able to wrap their minds around the fact that millions of people all over the world still (at least so far) look to the U.S. as a beacon of freedom and liberty.

251 JacksonTn  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:11:53am

Silence is not something that Obama knows anything about … he is a man who loves to hear himself talk … he loves to be in front of the cameras … he jacks his jaws at every opportunity … he speaks when he wants to … he is choosing not to here and that is very telling … who is surprised? … we all knew who his friends were all along … he has done nothing that he did not show a “tell” about in the campaign … nothing …

252 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:11:58am
253 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:13:03am

re: #244 buzzsawmonkey

Got news for you. Khamenei was already “stripped bare in front of his entire nation”—who do you think is out there in the streets? Are you really so demented as to think that people who are braving clubs and bullets, and sending desperate reports out of their beleaguered nation when and as they can to let the world know what it is happening are not aware that this is an indigenous movement, and not the work of outside “meddlers?” Do you really think that a statement of support from the putative head of the “Free World” would not hearten them—and that they would know damned well that it is not he, nor the US, that has supported them thus far?

In the meantime, the Craven-in-Chief might want to reconsider the old adage that one might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. If the US (with which, by the way, the current regime has been at war for the last 30 years) were to throw its support to the demonstrators, it could be instrumental in undoing the vile legacy of President Carter. As long as we’re being accused of that, why not step up?

Do you not realize that Iranians still maintain some weariness towards the United States due to our history of intervention in their political affairs? They haven’t forgotten our involvement in the 1950’s, and they remember that we were tangentially involved in the 1970’s as well. Not to mention the fact that we supplied Saddam Hussein with weaponry during their war in the 1980’s.

The only hope that Khamenei has of quelling this unrest is to tie the demonstrations to external forces. You acknowledge that all Obama’s words can do is “hearten” the protesters. Yet the potential downside is allowing Khamenei to successfully label all protesters as “zionist puppets,” using Obama’s words of support against them. Unless we are prepared to back the protesters with military support (which we are not), Obama is doing exactly the right thing. Remember Hungary in 1956?

254 Pianobuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:16:23am

From The Nation (yup that’s right, The Nation):

President Obama’s tepid response to the evidence the Iranian election was stolen from the people of that country by current president President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his thuggish allies is disappointing. …

The president says he entertains “deep concerns about the election” in Iran. Well, who doesn’t? Expressing concern is “nice,” it’s “diplomatic”–in the worst sense–but it is not sufficient to the circumstance, as Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton are reportedly arguing within the White House. …

By every measure, the US president’s response has been less than that of other world leaders, especially French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who has branded the announced election “result” a fraud and bluntly decried the government’s clampdown on dissent “brutal,” “totally disproportionate” and “extremely alarming.”

255 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:17:11am
256 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:17:28am

re: #248 drcordell

No, it’s not. He believes that the best way to support the demonstrators is to steer clear, lest their grassroots movement become tainted with the appearance of U.S. backing. Just because you refuse to acknowledge Obama’s reasoning doesn’t mean you can draw the conclusion that he wishes the current regime to remain intact.


Yeah, it would really suck if a nascent democratic movement were tainted by association with the world’s largest and most powerful Democracy.

Explain again whose legitimacy will be taken away if the USA stands on the side of free elections?

257 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:17:31am

re: #242 drcordell

You know nothing of Iranian history. The only country that has invaded Iran in the last century was Stalin’s Soviet Union. How does possession of a nuclear weapon protect them from anything?

A nuclear weapon is a means to threaten their neighbors in the Persian Gulf, and to establish regional hegemony.

258 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:19:43am

re: #216 drcordell

For a man “stripped bare”, Khamenei certainly seems pretty belligerant and threatening toward the protesters.

Secondly, by Iran accusing us of “meddling” anyway, shouldn’t Obama go ahead and denounce this sham of an election?

This “voting present” crap doesn’t work on the international stage. The POTUS needs to bee seen as a strong proponant of democracy, not a weathervane.

259 voirdire  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:20:51am

Obama simply respects his betters.

260 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:21:05am

re: #255 buzzsawmonkey

Somehow with 50% of the Persian population being under 25 years old, I somehow don’t think that lingering resentments from the 70s (let alone the 50s) are operative here.

On the other hand, the recent actions of the “Death to America” Khomeinists in Iraq and Lebanon (amongst other places) are still fairly resonant in the USA, at least amongst those paying attention to Iranian activity.

261 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:21:58am

quickjustice,

You know nothing of Iranian history. The only country that has invaded Iran in the last century was Stalin’s Soviet Union. How does possession of a nuclear weapon protect them from anything?

Iraq invaded Iran in September of 1980.

262 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:23:24am

re: #257 quickjustice

You know nothing of Iranian history. The only country that has invaded Iran in the last century was Stalin’s Soviet Union. How does possession of a nuclear weapon protect them from anything?

A nuclear weapon is a means to threaten their neighbors in the Persian Gulf, and to establish regional hegemony.

I know a little something of Iranian history. The fact that Saddam Hussein invaded Iran in 1980, for example.

Now, onto the nuclear weapons. I personally believe in the theory of political realism. I.E. states are rational actors moving towards their own interest, and the overriding national interest of each state is national security. That being said, try and find me a nation armed with nuclear weapons that has been invaded. There isn’t one. Because nuclear deterrence works just the same as it did during the Cold War.

263 MJ  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:23:37am

re: #255 buzzsawmonkey

Buzz, seems like Jonah Goldberg shares similar thoughts with you re:Iran’s nukes:

“… Remember, the president wants Israel to cave to all sorts of demands as part of a grand quid pro quo whereby the U.S. gets to work on forcing Iran to drop nukes in exchange for huge concessions by Israel. Well, what if getting Iran to drop its nukes is incidental and Israeli concessions fundamental? In other words, the prize of Obama’s foreign-policy agenda isn’t getting Iran to drop its nukes, but to force Israel to do what he thinks it must to make peace with the Palestinians and the Arab world….”

[Link: corner.nationalreview.com…]

264 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:23:56am

re: #239 Mr. Sandman

You’re quoting Dr. Kissinger for the proposition that President Obama ought not change his foreign policy in Iran based upon facts on the ground? That’s hilarious!

Lord Keynes once was confronted by a critic with a change in his position on an economic issue. “Well”, he replied, “When the facts change, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?”

All these pronouncements were developed prior to the current unrest. To his perpetual discredit, Obama is stubbornly clinging to his position on the overrun Maginot Line.

265 odorlesspaintthinner  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:25:42am

Typical dhimmi behavior. 3:1 odds Obama converts to Islam before the end of his term.

266 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:26:18am
267 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:27:51am

Bottom line here is that Obama’s silence is to facilitate cordial talking relations with the “Death to America” Khomeinists.

Its a flawed model, because as they’ve explicitly made clear again and again, the Mullahs aren’t going to be talked out of their nukes, and to the contrary, attempts at dialogue buy them more operating time.

268 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:28:41am

re: #258 MacDuff

Secondly, by Iran accusing us of “meddling” anyway, shouldn’t Obama go ahead and denounce this sham of an election?
.

The reason why Iran accusing us of “meddling” looks ridiculous, is because we have made it abundantly clear we are not meddling. Increasing our involvement in the situation after Khamenei attempted to paint us as the spark for the unrest is completely absurd. We’d only be lending credence to his absurd assertion.

Let’s say someone you know is getting divorced from his wife, and he wrongfully accuses you of cheating with her. You think the smartest first move to take would be writing her a nice letter he is sure to see? Of course not.

269 Kronocide  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:29:52am

I think the Meddling question has been astutely answered. Your move Obama/Kerry.

270 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:30:06am
271 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:30:32am

re: #253 drcordell

You keep repeating these egregious distortions of U.S. history. During WWII, Britain and the Soviet Union divided Iran into British and Soviet zones of interest. In 1946, Stalin decided to send tanks into Iran to annex his portion of the Soviet zone. Harry Truman told Stalin to get out, or we’d nuke them. Stalin backed down, and withdrew his tanks. Do the Iranians hate us for that?

In 1953, the CIA helped the Shah overthrow the Soviet-funded and supported Tudeh Party, which had rigged an election. Do the Iranians hate us for that?

The Shah was a firm friend of the U.S. In 1979, the current regime overthrew him and seize our diplomats, holding them hostage and torturing them for over a year. The Shah had a brutal secret police, SAVIK, but he also introduced western reforms, and educated women. Where do you pick up your lies and distortions of history?

272 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:31:11am

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

I know you don’t think so, I was just obliquely responding to Dr. Condells’ remarks on lingering resentments from 60 years ago.

273 Pianobuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:31:28am

You gotta love this quote……

“When Ronald Reagan went before the Brandenburg Gate, he did not say ‘Mr. Gorbachev, that wall is none of our business,’”

- Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind.

274 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:32:40am

re: #262 drcordell

So, nuclear arms in the hands of Islamists is a good thing? contrary-ism is one thing, madness is quite another!

275 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:35:40am

re: #262 drcordell

On your theory, every country should have nuclear weapons. We should be handing them out like free hotdogs on the street corners. You call that “realism”?

276 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:36:51am

re: #268 drcordell

As I said, I think one of the main responsibilities of the POTUS is to stand on the side of freedom and democracy; not to be the national weathervane. Your analogy is simply not relevant.

277 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:37:41am

re: #268 drcordell

The reason why Iran accusing us of “meddling” looks ridiculous, is because we have made it abundantly clear we are not meddling. Increasing our involvement in the situation after Khamenei attempted to paint us as the spark for the unrest is completely absurd. We’d only be lending credence to his absurd assertion.


Credence to whom?

Nobody with the slightest inkling of what’s going on in Iran thinks that its been instigated by the USA. The reason why it looks ridiculous, is because it *IS* ridiculous. The USA didn’t rig the election.

Further the “Death to America” crowd will blame the USA regardless of the extent (or lack thereof) of its actual involvement. It always has, it always will.

The Mullahs’ don’t need any excuses to suppress dissent violently, they’re already doing it.

So again, who benefits from American silence here? Its the Khomeinists, not the dissidents.

278 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:38:48am

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

I don’t think that “resentments” of the ’50s or the ’70s have particular resonance in modern-day Iran either; I merely gave them a passing nod on the “assuming, for the sake of argument” theory in order to dismiss them.

You don’t think Iranians remember anything of U.S. involvement in Iran in the 50’s, 70’s and 80’s because… why? What evidence do you have to support this huge contention.

If the United States fought a war with Canada from 1980-1988, and France had supplied Canada with their weapons, you think Americans would have forgotten by now?

279 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:40:34am

re: #262 drcordell

I know a little something of Iranian history. The fact that Saddam Hussein invaded Iran in 1980, for example.

Now, onto the nuclear weapons. I personally believe in the theory of political realism. I.E. states are rational actors moving towards their own interest, and the overriding national interest of each state is national security. That being said, try and find me a nation armed with nuclear weapons that has been invaded. There isn’t one. Because nuclear deterrence works just the same as it did during the Cold War.

Israel was invaded in 1967 and 1973 by her Arab neighbors. Israel may have had a few nuclear weapons in 1967, and certainly had a few of them by 1973.

280 Darwin Akbar  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:41:05am

Obama doesn’t want to appear to be on the losing side of anything and he knows the press will cover for him and praise him no matter what happens. That’s why he voted “present” so many times in his political career (remember, he abstained on the “General Betray-Us” vote, and made a big fuss about how his refusal to vote on whether to condemn Moveon.org was really a display of courage). It’s why he pretends in speeches to be “non-partisan” while ruthlessly pushing his agenda behind the scences (he just got clumsy with the IG matter in Oregon and got caught w/out any deniability). It’s why he makes speeches against waterboarding but quietly outsources “renditions.” It’s why he tries to distance himself from foreign policy decisions made in the past (“I’m glad you don’t blame ME for the Bay of Pigs! I didn’t do it!”) that leftist historians find disreputable.

The reality is that to lead is to choose. The left (and many Democrats) would really wish the whole middle-east thing would just go away, because siding with Israel -or the protesters in Iran - forces them to choose. They would like to forget that the Holocaust happened, because the mere presence of people like Elie Weisel forces people to choose. Obama would rather just finish his waffle and go back to being adored.

281 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:42:55am
282 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:43:45am

re: #279 Kenneth

Israel was invaded in 1967 and 1973 by her Arab neighbors. Israel may have had a few nuclear weapons in 1967, and certainly had a few of them by 1973.

Excellent point!

283 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:44:50am

re: #275 quickjustice

On your theory, every country should have nuclear weapons. We should be handing them out like free hotdogs on the street corners. You call that “realism”?

Did I say Iran should have nuclear weapons, or that we should give them out like hotdogs? No. I am explaining the tenets of political realism.

Realism isn’t about what one nation thinks another should do. It’s about recognizing that nations are inherently distrustful of one another. And it’s about recognizing that above all else, nations will act in their own self interest. Therefore, as a non-nuclear state that has received direct threat of military action from a nuclear armed state, one must assume that Iran will seek to acquire nuclear weapons.

Realism isn’t about morals, or who should or shouldn’t do what. It’s about realizing that at the end of the day nations are rational self-actors.

284 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:46:59am

re: #281 buzzsawmonkey

The US interfering in Iran in the 1980s? Where did you get the stuff you’re smoking? It certainly must be mellow. The US has given Iran a wide berth since the mullahs took power; they’ve been at war with us, and we’ve been too self-involved to notice.

Your article of faith that the Iranians are harboring resentments is what needs support, and you have provided none. To the contrary, the tweets flooding out of Iran since this whole thing started have been begging the US to provide an utterance other than “absent.”

Methinks “drcordell” is “drchamberlain” under the skin……..

285 [deleted]  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:47:45am
286 HippieforLife  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:47:46am

re: #216 drcordell

You are giving the O a whole lot of credit. Personally, I don’t think he is smart enough to think those things for himself.

287 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:52:16am

re: #262 drcordell

Dr. Cordell

> I personally believe in the theory of political realism. I.E. states are rational actors moving towards their own interest, and the overriding national interest of each state is national security.

Jesus H. Christ, your concept of realism literally doesn’t describe reality or history.

Was Hitler acting rationally?

How about Mao when he made his great leap forward?

Or try the crusades? The American Civil War? Britain’s efforts to end the slave trade? Japan attacking Pearl Harbor? All highly rational and self-interested I suppose.

Or how about NINE ELEVEN?! Were the Taliban acting rationally when they let AQ attack us? Did it maximize the chances of that regime’s survival?

Or just all the times that the Iranian president, Ahmadanutjob (or however you spell it), has 1) denied the holocaust, 2) promised a new one, and 3) generally acted like a batshit crazy Armageddonist trying to bring about the end of days by finding the 12th imam. If Iran wanted nukes wouldn’t the rational approach be to dial down on the crazy, at least until they have their first nuclear test?

Hell, if the regime in iran wanted to survive, wouldn’t it have done a better job rigging the elections? You know, by not having more votes than voters; by not claiming that Mousavi lost his home town; by making it a tighter margin in general. Do you think what they did was the rational thing?

It seems to me that when liberals these days claim to be realists, they are doing so, so they can be willfully blind to reality.

> That being said, try and find me a nation armed with nuclear weapons that has been invaded. There isn’t one. Because nuclear deterrence works just the same as it did during the Cold War.

A nation armed with nukes that has been invaded… okay, how about isreal? They are repeatedly invaded by terrorists. And Pakistan and India are both nuclear powers and both accuse the other of taking their rightful land in Kashmir.

By the way, you do know that deterrence doesn’t work so well with batshit crazy islamofascists who expect to get 72 virgins in paradise, right? Right?

288 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:53:40am

re: #262 drcordell

I know a little something of Iranian history. The fact that Saddam Hussein invaded Iran in 1980, for example.

Now, onto the nuclear weapons. I personally believe in the theory of political realism. I.E. states are rational actors moving towards their own interest, and the overriding national interest of each state is national security. That being said, try and find me a nation armed with nuclear weapons that has been invaded. There isn’t one. Because nuclear deterrence works just the same as it did during the Cold War.

The current regime in Iran isn’t rational.

289 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:53:43am

re: #283 drcordell

Realism isn’t about morals, or who should or shouldn’t do what. It’s about realizing that at the end of the day nations are rational self-actors.

What if nations are not always “rational self-actors”? Was Germany a rational self-actors when they invaded Poland? Or how about when they invaded Russia? Japan at Pearl harbor? How was that rational? Pol Pot & Cambodia… rational? The Rwandan genocide…rational self-actors again? Serbia attacking the former fellow republics of Yugoslavia was a rational act?

I could go on, but you get the point. Not all nations are rational actors all the time. Sometimes irrational people are in control and they do irrational things resulting in wars, genocide, the slaughter of millions, and more often than not, their own destruction. Allowing a demonstrably irrational state like Iran to poses nuclear weapons is a path to war & the destruction of tens of millions of people.

290 Pianobuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:53:50am

re: #285 buzzsawmonkey

Believing that nations—or their leaders—are “rational self-actors” when there is abundant evidence that this is not the case is not “realism” but ideological fantasy.

Amen. At least with MAD, the sheer number of nukes on both sides sorta kinda complemented a “rational self-actor” concept. Totalitarian with a mere handful of nukes (Nork, Iran….) not so much.

291 jamgarr  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:54:52am

Obama “fancies himself”! LOL! Go Charles!

292 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:54:58am

re: #283 drcordell

So your argument is that it’s rational for the U.S. to permit a hostile regime in Iran to develop or acquire a nuclear weapon, correct?

293 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:55:03am

re: #265 odorlesspaintthinner

Nice that you have something of substance to contribute.

294 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:56:03am

re: #289 Kenneth

What if nations are not always “rational self-actors”? Was Germany a rational self-actors when they invaded Poland?

Look above at my last post… great minds do think alike. heh.

(and for the record, it looks like we were nearly simultaneous on the same thought.)

295 Ornery Ballsack  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:56:26am

re: #283 drcordell
I would disagree with the notion that “at the end of the day nations are rational self-actors” even if you were only referring to democracies. However, applying this logic to dictatorships where the decisions are only in the interest of the “Supreme Leader” is either stunningly naive or overwhelmingly stupid.

296 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:57:53am

re: #295 Ornery Ballsack

I would disagree with the notion that “at the end of the day nations are rational self-actors” even if you were only referring to democracies. However, applying this logic to dictatorships where the decisions are only in the interest of the “Supreme Leader” is either stunningly naive or overwhelmingly stupid.

a high five and an upding for you.

297 yochanan  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:58:01am

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

read it closely the U.S. is now been ‘fixed’ no balls at all.

298 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:59:11am

re: #294 A.W.

You wrote a great rebuttal to that fool.

299 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:59:25am

re: #281 buzzsawmonkey

The US interfering in Iran in the 1980s? Where did you get the stuff you’re smoking? It certainly must be mellow. The US has given Iran a wide berth since the mullahs took power; they’ve been at war with us, and we’ve been too self-involved to notice.

Your article of faith that the Iranians are harboring resentments is what needs support, and you have provided none. To the contrary, the tweets flooding out of Iran since this whole thing started have been begging the US to provide an utterance other than “absent.”

In the 1980’s we supplied Saddam Hussein with billions of dollars in tanks, missiles, fighter jets, artillery and potentially chemical weapons. All of which were used to kill Iranians, so yes I believe the Iranians might remember that.

300 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:59:38am

Early in his regime, Hitler was highly successful with his diplomatic and military strategies. We almost lost the Second World War. It was his desire to ally with England against the Soviet Communists that delayed his attempt to destroy her.

In short, his emotions misdirected his judgment at a critical time. For which I am grateful.

301 hazzyday  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:00:52pm

I noticed a lot of signs in English in the Iranian protests. I don’t think that was totally a message for the Iranian mullahs. The Iranian voters have followed the American elections and bought into the Pres Obama rhetoric of “Hope and Change”. It’s the interwebs. They acquired some hope. Pres Obama by his silence is putting them in a Marsh Arab position.

Being silent and working the back channels isn’t completely going to do. Except for those ivory tower table top chess players. Not for the Iranian on the street. The greater risk here is that we will alienate a generation of Iranians who appear to have some goodwill towards us and we are too feckless to give it back.

Words give way to actions. For Pres Obama to have made these lofty presentation in Cairo and Buchenwald for a world audience and then to go into retreat at the first sign of a world issue. An issue he can address. The phrase paper tiger comes to mind. I think it weakens him seriously in every world capitol.

Being afraid of meddling makes no difference. If the mullahs want to crush dissent they can fabricate all the meddling they want. The mullahs have killed a lot of American Soldiers in Irag. It seems wise to be prepared to pressure them militarily as payback when they are preoccupied.

The walk on eggshells crap never works. What I think though is that there is no downside for Pres Obama here. A protester win is good. The Protesters are cracked down on and killed it puts Iran mullahs in a bad light.

302 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:00:57pm

re: #283 drcordell


Realism isn’t about morals, or who should or shouldn’t do what. It’s about realizing that at the end of the day nations are rational self-actors.


I agree, though its probably fair to say that “regimes” are rational self-actors, too.

It seems clear in this case that the Khomeinist regime and the “nation” (ie populace) are at odds, and that the former is doing what it needs to do to maintain control. Why sloppily rig an election to begin with?

By your own notion of “realism” would the Khomeinist regime REALLY do anything differently if the USA voiced support for true Iranian self-determination?

Also, since you espouse “realism”, which do you believe is in the interest of the USA?

a. Sit silent while a hostile (“Death to America”) regime suppresses internal dissent, or

b. Provide moral support to pro-Democracy elements in Iran.

303 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:00:58pm

re: #292 quickjustice

So your argument is that it’s rational for the U.S. to permit a hostile regime in Iran to develop or acquire a nuclear weapon, correct?

No. Read again. Realism isn’t about what states should do, or allow other states to do. It’s about understanding the motivating factors behind states actions.

304 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:02:21pm
The only hope for a resolution of the nuclear question is regime change, which (if the successor regime were as moderate as pre-Khomeini Iran) might either stop the program, or make it manageable and nonthreatening.

What evidence is there that this would be the case? Moussavi participated in the startup of the nuclear programme in the first place. Why should we buy into the idea that he’d throw it under the bus if he were put in power?

I tend to agree with Mr. Krauthammer most of the time, but on this, we part ways.

305 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:03:04pm

re: #299 drcordell

All U.S. supplies to Iraq were defensive, to halt the Iranian offensive that threatened to overrun Saddma’s army. Reagan and Rumsfeld supplied Saddam Hussein to prevent catastrophic Iraqi loss of the Iran-Iraq War. Our Arab allies begged us to do this to prevent Iraq and the rest of the Gulf being overrun by the victorious Iranians. Don’t you think that was in U.S. interests?

306 hazzyday  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:03:13pm

re: #299 drcordell

In the 1980’s we supplied Saddam Hussein with billions of dollars in tanks, missiles, fighter jets, artillery and potentially chemical weapons. All of which were used to kill Iranians, so yes I believe the Iranians might remember that.

The Iranians are remembering Obama right now. They perceive it is a different US. We are more friendly with Vietnam now.

307 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:03:30pm

re: #299 drcordell

You seem to cherry-pick the post to which you choose to respond.

Yes or no answer: Are nuclear weapons, in the hands if the current Iranian regime a good thing or?

308 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:03:36pm

re: #298 Kenneth

You wrote a great rebuttal to that fool.

Back atcha. Ornery too.

i swear, sometimes i think the difference between a conservative and a liberal is a conservative knows something about history. For instance, when Obama made his Cairo speech and he said democracy can’t be forced on another country, i wanted to throw something at the TV. Jesus, can’t force democracy? Tell that to germany and japan.

ai-yi-yi, how can a person be so clueless?

309 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:05:41pm

re: #299 drcordell

In the 1980’s we supplied Saddam Hussein with billions of dollars in tanks, missiles, fighter jets, artillery and potentially chemical weapons. All of which were used to kill Iranians, so yes I believe the Iranians might remember that.


Not so much. In the 1980s, approximately 50% of the current Iranian population was either not yet born, or under the age of 5 years. Saddam was also fighting the same “Death to America” Khomeinist regime that just rigged the elections.

But since you bring up the topic, I think the majority of Iran WAS around to see what ultimately happened to Saddam Hussein and who was responsible for it, and somehow, I think THAT is both a little bit fresher in their minds and more relevant.

Further, they’ve all also seen what’s happened in Iraq (eg two sets of actual elections), and that matters too.

310 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:05:50pm

re: #295 Ornery Ballsack

I would disagree with the notion that “at the end of the day nations are rational self-actors” even if you were only referring to democracies. However, applying this logic to dictatorships where the decisions are only in the interest of the “Supreme Leader” is either stunningly naive or overwhelmingly stupid.

It’s overwhelmingly stupid to assume that dictators would act in their own self-interest? If anything, dictators can be assumed to be the most self-interested of all leaders. Their number one concern is remaining in power. For a dictator, the national security of their nation is analogous to the security of their regime.

311 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:06:51pm

Btw, if most nations were rational actors seeking their self-preservation, then we shouldn’t we be nuking iran until their sand turns to glass? isn’t it irrational of us to let them get anywhere near a nuke?

Or at the very least, as an intermediate answer, shouldn’t we kick down the regime?

Or at least support the protesters?

In other words, if all of these nations are supposed to be rational actors, how on earth do you explain Obama’s behavior?

312 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:07:13pm

re: #310 drcordell

So by your logic, dictatorship is the best and most stable of all possible governments?

313 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:07:14pm

re: #310 drcordell

It’s overwhelmingly stupid to assume that dictators would act in their own self-interest? If anything, dictators can be assumed to be the most self-interested of all leaders. Their number one concern is remaining in power. For a dictator, the national security of their nation is analogous to the security of their regime.

Yes or no answer: Are nuclear weapons, in the hands if the current Iranian regime a good thing?

314 hazzyday  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:07:18pm

re: #278 drcordell

You don’t think Iranians remember anything of U.S. involvement in Iran in the 50’s, 70’s and 80’s because… why? What evidence do you have to support this huge contention.

If the United States fought a war with Canada from 1980-1988, and France had supplied Canada with their weapons, you think Americans would have forgotten by now?

The evidence is signs in English in the protests. Unless it was meant for Britain.

315 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:07:18pm

re: #305 quickjustice

All U.S. supplies to Iraq were defensive, to halt the Iranian offensive that threatened to overrun Saddma’s army. Reagan and Rumsfeld supplied Saddam Hussein to prevent catastrophic Iraqi loss of the Iran-Iraq War. Our Arab allies begged us to do this to prevent Iraq and the rest of the Gulf being overrun by the victorious Iranians. Don’t you think that was in U.S. interests?

It’s not about whether or not it was in our interest. It’s about whether or not the Iranians might remember that just over a decade ago 800,000 of their countrymen died at the hands of weaponry we provided to Saddam Hussein.

316 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:07:35pm

re: #309 looking closely

Good points, all around.

317 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:08:02pm

re: #304 Yashmak

What evidence is there that this would be the case? Moussavi participated in the startup of the nuclear programme in the first place. Why should we buy into the idea that he’d throw it under the bus if he were put in power?

I tend to agree with Mr. Krauthammer most of the time, but on this, we part ways.

He said *IF* the successor regime was as moderate as the pre-Khomeinist one this would happen.

I don’t think its a foregone conclusion that it would be, but it certainly wouldn’t be any worse. (Though I do think that if there werer TRULY free elections in Iran, the inevitable shift would be towards moderation).

Further, *IF* Mousavi were actually empowered now, that would be a mandate for change. That alone would weaken the Mullahs.

318 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:08:27pm

re: #315 drcordell

It’s not about whether or not it was in our interest. It’s about whether or not the Iranians might remember that just over a decade ago 800,000 of their countrymen died at the hands of weaponry we provided to Saddam Hussein.

Yes or no answer: Are nuclear weapons, in the hands if the current Iranian regime a good thing?

319 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:08:56pm

re: #310 drcordell

It’s overwhelmingly stupid to assume that dictators would act in their own self-interest? If anything, dictators can be assumed to be the most self-interested of all leaders. Their number one concern is remaining in power. For a dictator, the national security of their nation is analogous to the security of their regime.

Hmm, hmm… So Hitler was rational. And indeed more rational than FDR.

Kind of refutes itself, doesn’t it?

320 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:08:58pm

re: #313 MacDuff

Yes or no answer: Are nuclear weapons, in the hands if the current Iranian regime a good thing?

For the U.S. and Israel, no. For the Iranians, yes. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain. When crafting our foreign policy towards Iran, we have to assume that they consider a nuclear weapon to be in their own self-interest. That doesn’t mean I am in favor of it. It means I acknowledge that the Iranians think it is in their favor.

321 hazzyday  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:10:07pm

re: #315 drcordell

It’s not about whether or not it was in our interest. It’s about whether or not the Iranians might remember that just over a decade ago 800,000 of their countrymen died at the hands of weaponry we provided to Saddam Hussein.

We’ll willing to be friends with both countries now. The geo political climate has changed. AGW

322 quickjustice  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:10:23pm

re: #315 drcordell

Iran-Iraq War was over twenty (20) years ago, historian. 70% of the Iranian population is under 30 years old. The mullahs used school children ahead of their infantry to clear the minefields the Iranian way— by stepping on the mines. Few of their children survived that experience.

323 kansas  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:10:41pm

re: #121 jill e

Only 6% of Jewish Israelis view Barack Obama as pro-Israel.

How could anyone anywhere view him as pro-Israel? Seriously.

324 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:11:05pm

re: #317 looking closely


Further, *IF* Mousavi were actually empowered now, that would be a mandate for change. That alone would weaken the Mullahs.

From what I read, they’re already weakened. Ahmadinejad has placed enough of his Republican Guard cronies in power, that he has for all intents and purposes waged a de facto coup, replacing the mullahs as the true power in Iran. It’ll be a while before we know for sure I supose.

The weakening of the mullahs, while it seems a win-win situation, may not be, if the replacement for their theocratic dictatorship is simply a military dictatorship.

325 Ornery Ballsack  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:11:27pm

re: #310 drcordell

I would direct you to post #187. Was it in Saddam’s best interest to provoke a US response, Al-Queda, Hitler, and so forth? The dictator does whatever he chooses for reasons that the dictator chooses, not rational self-interest.

326 hazzyday  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:11:35pm

re: #320 drcordell

For the U.S. and Israel, no. For the Iranians, yes. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain. When crafting our foreign policy towards Iran, we have to assume that they consider a nuclear weapon to be in their own self-interest. That doesn’t mean I am in favor of it. It means I acknowledge that the Iranians think it is in their favor.

I agree every self determined nationalist leader would want a nuclear weapon to secure their borders. The UN isn’t enough.

327 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:12:04pm

re: #319 A.W.

Hmm, hmm… So Hitler was rational. And indeed more rational than FDR.

Kind of refutes itself, doesn’t it?

It always comes down to WWII for conservatives. Anyone who doesn’t start a war is labeled a “Chamberlain appeaser” and every enemy is distilled down to Hitler. WWII is not analogous to every single foreign policy situation, for Christ’s sake.

Saddam Hussein was not Hitler. Khamenei is not Hitler. Hitler was Hitler. And the foreign policy world he acted in was completely different than the world we inhabit today.

328 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:12:06pm

re: #320 drcordell

For the U.S. and Israel, no. For the Iranians, yes. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain. When crafting our foreign policy towards Iran, we have to assume that they consider a nuclear weapon to be in their own self-interest. That doesn’t mean I am in favor of it. It means I acknowledge that the Iranians think it is in their favor.

Has it ever occured to you that the iranians don’t want the nuke in order to survive, but instead so they can kill? As in, wipe isreal off of the map.

oh sure, continue with your chamberlain whispers. “Sure they say it, but they don’t mean it.” Remember how well that attitude worked out at Munich?

Btw, was Neville Chamberlain a rational actor? Seems to me that if he stomped on Hitler at the first violation of the armistace, England would have been much safer and the world would have a few more million jews in it.

329 Ornery Ballsack  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:13:54pm

re: #327 drcordell

I guess that means “not in his rational self-interest”.

330 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:14:19pm

re: #320 drcordell

For the U.S. and Israel, no. For the Iranians, yes. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain. When crafting our foreign policy towards Iran, we have to assume that they consider a nuclear weapon to be in their own self-interest. That doesn’t mean I am in favor of it. It means I acknowledge that the Iranians think it is in their favor.

So, when we are crafting our foreign policy toward Iran, shouldn’t we do so in our self interest in mind? Pardon my bluntness, but OUR self interests, and that of Israel should be our concern, NOT the interests of a brutal theocracy.

331 kansas  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:15:17pm

I see you guys are torturing yourselves trying to talk to the doctor. I’m going to cancel my appointment.

332 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:15:39pm

It is my opinion, the reason we are witnessing the level to which the Iranian street has risen to this occasion, is directly due to our involvement over the last 5 years in Iraq.

To place a finer point on this, I would say it could be the recent surge which might have provided hope. Whether we like it or not, there are a few nations who have a bad taste in their mouth for the United States, deserved or not. When things looked their worst in Iraq just a short time ago, we stayed on.

I am willing to play it fair, and think an argument could be made for not coming out publicly right now. However, this becomes an extremely hard sell when I have to parse this with Obama’s albeit, small, but past record.

An act of pure provocation by the Soviets, his statement implied the people of Georgia somehow had a hand in what occurred, and if they would only step back they could apply diplomacy and resolve their differences.

Another angle I find contradictory, given his recent apology tour in the middle east, was the sentiment that somehow we have left the islamic people behind. We refused to acknowledge their contributions to humanity, and that the followers of islam are not synonymous with terror, and tyranny.

How does this square, when the protester’s own signs depict their opposition to tyranny, and now we are silent?

It is apparent I have no love for Obama. I have always though of him as the presidential equivalent to American Idol.

Truly frightening, is what we are witnessing unfold in front of our eyes, and the man in the job still refuses to push any button other than “present”.

I would be lying if I were to say I am not afraid for the future.

333 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:17:10pm

re: #327 drcordell

It always comes down to WWII for conservatives. Anyone who doesn’t start a war is labeled a “Chamberlain appeaser” and every enemy is distilled down to Hitler. WWII is not analogous to every single foreign policy situation, for Christ’s sake.

Saddam Hussein was not Hitler. Khamenei is not Hitler. Hitler was Hitler. And the foreign policy world he acted in was completely different than the world we inhabit today.

It doesn’t have to be analogous. You said that all nations act in their self interest all the time. I am pointing out to you dozens of examples when they don’t. (see my and kenneth’s posts above) Nations aren’t perfectly rational because humans aren’t perfectly rational, and when one human controls a nation, their individual tics and psychoses can drive their policy as much as self interest or enlightened self-interest.

And mind you, that is a double edged sword. I threw in the example of england stopping the slave trade, because that was irrational, not in their self-interest, but you know what? We should be thankful for them doing it.

But to be blunt, your version of “realism” doesn’t describe reality.

I mean are you really going to say that people always act in their own self-interest? Are you that clueless?

334 hazzyday  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:17:47pm

re: #332 formercorpsman

There were purple fingers on some of the women in the pictures at tehranlive.org

335 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:18:42pm

re: #299 drcordell

In the 1980’s we supplied Saddam Hussein with billions of dollars in tanks, missiles, fighter jets, artillery and potentially chemical weapons. All of which were used to kill Iranians, so yes I believe the Iranians might remember that.

False. The leading suppliers to Iraq were the Soviets, the Chinese & the French the US supplied uniforms a few helicopters. Less than 2% of the total Iraqi military supplies during Saddam’s whole bloody rule.

International sources for technology and chemical precursors

The know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained by Saddam’s regime from foreign firms.[16] By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie Ltd.) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[17]

336 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:19:34pm

re: #334 hazzyday

There were purple fingers on some of the women in the pictures at tehranlive.org

I saw that too. It’s been a heart-wrenching thing to watch, especially since I cannot in good faith say that I believe it’s in our interests to come out in favor of the pro-Moussavi protests, due to his hardline past.

Regardless, I still feel for the protesters themselves, and what they’re trying to do for their country.

337 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:21:32pm

Btw, did france act in its self-interest prior to WWII. Let’s see here… they opposed any effort to reign hitler in. Then when they started being worried that gee, germany might invade us they built a wall between germany and france. and it looked pretty good. except for one problem… they left the side door, through the netherlands open. and Hitler waltzed right through, took them down in a month, and turned their own guns at the maginot line against them.

Mmm, doesn’t seem like a very rationally self-interested set of decisions. indeed most historians at the time credit the temidity of britian and france to 1) a sense of guilt that they wronged the german people with reparations and 2) a fear of war. So in part due to their fear of war, they ended up with a bigger and much more awful one than they would have had if they stomped on hitler sooner.

338 formercorpsman  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:22:33pm

re: #334 hazzyday

I am sure those images are weighing heavily in the minds of the mullahs.

The only thing they need us to do is nothing at all.

339 Ornery Ballsack  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:24:18pm

re: #336 Yashmak

I agree that a Mousavi gov’t under the current theocracy is probably no better than the Ahmedinejad one, however, coming out squarely on the side of all peoples right to freedom is never wrong. That said, I feel that this has gone far beyond just putting a new face on the Iranian presidency and has become a referendum on freedom from the tyranny of the Mullahs.

340 hazzyday  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:24:25pm

re: #336 Yashmak

I saw that too. It’s been a heart-wrenching thing to watch, especially since I cannot in good faith say that I believe it’s in our interests to come out in favor of the pro-Moussavi protests, due to his hardline past.

Regardless, I still feel for the protesters themselves, and what they’re trying to do for their country.

In the revolutions I read about the initial hardline groups are full of idealism. Then they break down into groups competing for power based on human nature. A peaceful mullah lead effort might be the best way to overcome the thugocracy in Iran. Like you, I can’t tell. I think we should though enable communications so that people in Iran can talk to us. If they need mobile devices send them mobile devices from China.

341 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:24:57pm

re: #333 A.W.

It doesn’t have to be analogous. You said that all nations act in their self interest all the time. I am pointing out to you dozens of examples when they don’t. (see my and kenneth’s posts above) Nations aren’t perfectly rational because humans aren’t perfectly rational, and when one human controls a nation, their individual tics and psychoses can drive their policy as much as self interest or enlightened self-interest.

And mind you, that is a double edged sword. I threw in the example of england stopping the slave trade, because that was irrational, not in their self-interest, but you know what? We should be thankful for them doing it.

But to be blunt, your version of “realism” doesn’t describe reality.

I mean are you really going to say that people always act in their own self-interest? Are you that clueless?

You do understand that I did not personally write the tenets of political realism. It is a school of thought. Obviously you cannot apply it to every situation throughout history. It is a guide, not a hard and fast rule.

But yes, getting back to the point, I do believe that nation states are for the most part rational self-actors. The concept you are failing to understand is that each state acts in a way that they deem to be in their own self interest. Not what you, as an American, deem to be in their own self interest.

Saddam Hussein saw Kuwait slant-drilling his oil wells, and thought that invading Kuwait was in the interest of his nation. Clearly he did not forsee that the United States would intervene. Self-interest is subjective, not objective.

From your perspective, it is not in Iran’s self-interest to acquire nuclear weapons. You believe that by seeking nuclear weapons, they are provoking a response from the U.S. and Israel. From the Iranian perspective, they see that the United States has invaded two of their neighboring countries, and has military bases in several others. They also see that Israel has nuclear weapons. They believe that nuclear weaponry will serve as the best deterrent against military action against their government by either the U.S. or Israel. Irrational to you, rational to them.

342 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:25:24pm

re: #315 drcordell

It’s not about whether or not it was in our interest. It’s about whether or not the Iranians might remember that just over a decade ago 800,000 of their countrymen died at the hands of weaponry we provided to Saddam Hussein.

The Russians supplied the vast majority of the weapons the Iraqis used in the war against Iran. Today the Russians are supplying Iran with nuclear technology and their air defense systems. Don’t you find that a wee bit ironic?

What I find very ironic is that liberals like you never hold Russia accountable for things like that but instead believe in any lie, fantasy or distortion that paints America as the bad guy. Why is that?

343 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:25:46pm

re: #319 A.W.

Hmm, hmm… So Hitler was rational. And indeed more rational than FDR.

Kind of refutes itself, doesn’t it?

I didn’t start this “Realism” argument, but I think a more functional definition of “Realism” is that all else being equal REGIMES (not necessarily nations) will try to act in what they PERCEIVE to be their best interests.

But of course, there can be a pretty wide chasm between what an individual leader or oligarchy THINKS is in its nation’s best interest, and what actually IS. There can also be a big gap between what one TRIES to do and what one is actually CAPABLE of doing.

In the case of Iran, its blatantly obvious that the ruling Mullahs believe that having nukes is in their national interest. It increases their power and standing in the region at the very least, plus of course, it helps insulate the regime from external threat.

So as Krauthammer explicitly says in this piece, its utterly absurd to think that supporting the Mullahs (by not standing up for free elections) is in any way going to affect their desire to obtain nuclear weapons.

Further, its equally absurd to think that Iran’s nuclear program can be traded away by *ANY* arrangement between itself, Israel and the Palestinians.

Bluntly, its in Iran’s interest for the Palestinian issue NOT to be solved, and once it gets nukes, that issue becomes largely moot anyway. Further, even if Israel were to actually disappear from the map tomorrow (using Ahmedinejad’s own words), Iran would *STILL* want nukes.

344 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:27:20pm

re: #340 hazzyday

In the revolutions I read about the initial hardline groups are full of idealism. Then they break down into groups competing for power based on human nature.

Perfect example - immediate pre-Franco Spain. Many idealist communists involved in the civil war there became quite disillusioned with communism when they saw the corruption of the ideology as the movement did (as you said) break down into factions competing for power.

345 hazzyday  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:27:20pm

re: #339 Ornery Ballsack

I agree that a Mousavi gov’t under the current theocracy is probably no better than the Ahmedinejad one, however, coming out squarely on the side of all peoples right to freedom is never wrong. That said, I feel that this has gone far beyond just putting a new face on the Iranian presidency and has become a referendum on freedom from the tyranny of the Mullahs.

I think the Iranians are viewing the governments of Bush and Obama as very similar also, even though internally we don’t perceive it that way. I think Mousavi might be affected by his constituency of marchers, but the drift towards us will be small.

346 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:27:28pm

re: #305 quickjustice

Don’t you think that was in U.S. interests?

US self interest bad, Iranian self interest good.

347 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:27:55pm

re: #343 looking closely

Yes! Upding!

348 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:28:46pm

re: #327 drcordell

It always comes down to WWII for conservatives. Anyone who doesn’t start a war is labeled a “Chamberlain appeaser” and every enemy is distilled down to Hitler. WWII is not analogous to every single foreign policy situation, for Christ’s sake.

Saddam Hussein was not Hitler. Khamenei is not Hitler. Hitler was Hitler. And the foreign policy world he acted in was completely different than the world we inhabit today.

No one accused Saddam, Khameni or anyone else of being Hitler. Neville Chamberlain is an accepted icon of appeasement on an historic scale; appeasement didn’t work then and how you can think it can work now is beyond me.

As far as your crack “It always comes down to WWII for conservatives”; I can only say that I, as a conservative, believe that understanding the past is a window into understanding the future. If one thing is constant, it’s basic human nature and we see that fact played out time and time again. People such as you, seem to want to continue to make the same mistakes (i.e. appeasement), thinking that this time, there will be a better outcome. There won’t be a better outcome, and never will be a better outcome.

This is a lesson that you would do well to learn, though I am not particularly optimistic of that happening.

349 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:28:54pm

Dr.Cordell

Btw, isn’t history littered with the corpses of heads of state that did not behave rationally?

Like you know, the romanovs.

Or Gorbachev?

Louis XVI?

Saddam Hussien?

The Taliban?

I mean take the French… please. (rim shot) the king of france supports our revolution and we thank them by translating our declaration of independance into french. and what do you know, a revolution erupts and as Sting put it “the king said hi to the guillitine.” How did that work out for Louis XVI?

Or in the case of the Taliban and Hussien, well, just how smart was it to piss off the united states? its kind of hard to argue that they did the rational, self-interested thing, you know?

And Gorbachev is another good example. he positively destroyed his regime. To his credit, of course, but that isn’t exactly a self-interested act, now is it? he could have kept it going and had a regular harem, living large over there. but to his credit, he threw it away.

Its not just WWII, although it is a big counter example. there are many many others throughout history of regimes acting irrationally.

350 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:30:51pm

re: #346 Kenneth

US self interest bad, Iranian self interest good.


You can keep trying to pigeonhole me into being an “America hater” but it’s not going to work. Have I stated anywhere that I am personally in favor of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons? Realism is about trying to understand how nation states will act. It’s a bit more complicated than AMERICA GOOD, IRAN BAD.

351 yochanan  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:32:08pm

the question i have who is first in line for the zero rimming? the nk or the iranian short shit?

////// a lot of sarcasm here for sure.

352 happycamper  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:32:17pm

Although I generally agree with Krauthammer, I don’t actually think Obama is “afraid to take sides” as much as he hasn’t figured out how to take both sides on this issue. Like other’s have said, he’s trying to vote “present”. Leadership often requires a pro-active posture as opposed to a re-active one.

For example, IMHO we shouldn’t surround Hawaii with anti-ballistic missle ships waiting for North Korea to launch. Instead, we shouldn’t allow the launch.

353 Yashmak  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:33:41pm

re: #352 happycamper


For example, IMHO we shouldn’t surround Hawaii with anti-ballistic missle ships waiting for North Korea to launch. Instead, we shouldn’t allow the launch.

While you’re correct, I think it doesn’t hurt to also plan for contingencies (i.e., failing to prevent such a launch for whatever reason).

354 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:34:12pm

re: #343 looking closely

If a truly rational democratic government gains power in Iran, they could pursue their national interest to better effect by putting their national wealth and the intelligence of their people into creating wealth and expanding knowledge. If Iran used their oil wealth to properly develop their country, instead of wasting it on corruption, nukes, missiles & terrorism, they would have a truly great influence in the region & the world. They don’t need nukes or the Palestinian issue.

355 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:35:05pm

re: #350 drcordell

I would prefer if you replied to may longer factual posts, rather than my easy jibes.

356 EaterOfFood  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:35:10pm

re: #10 captdiggs

A Churchill or Reagan, Obama is not.
Sarkozy and Harper ( of Canada) have taken much stronger positions.
Shamefully, we have become the new “surrender monkeys”.

Does that mean we are now Cheeseburger-eating Surrender Monkeys?

357 happycamper  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:36:21pm

re: #353 Yashmak

I agree.

358 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:36:42pm

re: #351 yochanan

They’re taking turns. Right now it’s pretty hard for Ahmadinejad to unclench his fist when it’s up Obama’s wazzoo.

359 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:36:53pm

re: #349 A.W.

Dr.Cordell

Btw, isn’t history littered with the corpses of heads of state that did not behave rationally?

Like you know, the romanovs.

Or Gorbachev?

Louis XVI?

Saddam Hussien?

The Taliban?

I mean take the French… please. (rim shot) the king of france supports our revolution and we thank them by translating our declaration of independance into french. and what do you know, a revolution erupts and as Sting put it “the king said hi to the guillitine.” How did that work out for Louis XVI?

Or in the case of the Taliban and Hussien, well, just how smart was it to piss off the united states? its kind of hard to argue that they did the rational, self-interested thing, you know?

And Gorbachev is another good example. he positively destroyed his regime. To his credit, of course, but that isn’t exactly a self-interested act, now is it? he could have kept it going and had a regular harem, living large over there. but to his credit, he threw it away.

Its not just WWII, although it is a big counter example. there are many many others throughout history of regimes acting irrationally.


I’lll state this again. You are judging the rationality of these actions as an American. Realism does not state that all nations act in America’s best interest. They act in a way that they determine to be their own self-interest. Obviously this doesn’t work out as planned every single time. Plenty of world leaders have made poor decisions, and plenty more will. Just because you deem a leader’s actions to be irrational doesn’t mean they thought the same way.

360 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:39:52pm

re: #341 drcordell

From the Iranian perspective, they see that the United States has invaded two of their neighboring countries, and has military bases in several others. They also see that Israel has nuclear weapons. They believe that nuclear weaponry will serve as the best deterrent against military action against their government by either the U.S. or Israel. Irrational to you, rational to them.


The rationale is correct (that they see nukes at least as a partial deterrent), but this history is not.

Iran has a nuclear technology program dating back to the 1950s.

Its most recent attempts at clandestine manufacture of nuclear arms are believed to have started in the mid-to-late 1980s, actually BEFORE the first Gulf war, and LONG before either 9-11, the second American invasion of Iraq, or the American invasion of Afghanistan.

The biggest ramp up of the program was believed to have taken place right after the first Gulf war.

As to defensive use of nukes, Israel doesn’t pose a direct threat to Iran, and that’s pretty clear. At the same time, Iran has on multiple occasions used highly threatening language with respect to Israel, a country it has never recognized ever. The rhetoric has included terms like “being wiped off the map” and “destruction by fire”. Iran has also desribed Israel as a “one bomb state” (meaning it would only take one nuke to destroy Israel).

Whether or not Iran would actually use nukes pre-emptively against Israel is questionable, but there are certainly objective reasons to consider that offensive use of nukes (as opposed to purely defensive use) is possible.

361 Kenneth  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:42:17pm

re: #359 drcordell

So anything anybody else does is rational? You have no standard baseline of reality against which to judge their actions? If that’s what you are saying, then Iran could very well want nuclear weapons for the very reasons we have been saying, to attack Israel. Because that’s their uniquely rational reason. And if that happens, Israel will wipe them out in retaliation. And you are saying that is all very rational to Iranians?

I’m afraid to ask what you think is crazy…

362 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:42:52pm

re: #342 Kenneth

The Russians supplied the vast majority of the weapons the Iraqis used in the war against Iran. Today the Russians are supplying Iran with nuclear technology and their air defense systems. Don’t you find that a wee bit ironic?

What I find very ironic is that liberals like you never hold Russia accountable for things like that but instead believe in any lie, fantasy or distortion that paints America as the bad guy. Why is that?

First things first. We funneled over $5 billion dollars to the Iraqi war effort against Iran throughout the 80’s. Source

The point I made was that many Iranians haven’t forgotten we gave $5 billion to Saddam Hussein to wage war against their nation. Russia’s contributions are beside the point in this respect.

Now, if you could please stop putting words in my mouth I would appreciate it. Nowhere did I say anything about America being right or wrong for supporting Iraq. Nowhere did I call America “the bad guy.” I simply pointed out that there Iranians who remain skeptical of the U.S. because of our efforts to fund Hussein in the 1980’s.

363 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:43:36pm

re: #350 drcordell

You can keep trying to pigeonhole me into being an “America hater” but it’s not going to work. Have I stated anywhere that I am personally in favor of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons? Realism is about trying to understand how nation states will act. It’s a bit more complicated than AMERICA GOOD, IRAN BAD.

Ah, “realism”. I submit that faith and unshakable ideology have trumped “realism” on numerous occasions throughout human history. The fact that the United Sates exists is a good example of that.

As for pigeonholing you into being an “America hater”, has anyone actually said that? You seem to think appeasement is some sort of answer here, and that seems to be the crux of the disagreement.

364 looking closely  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:46:27pm

#341

Not incidentally, this idea that Iran wants nukes to protect itself against Israel and/or the USA is exactly turned on its head.

Neither Israel NOR the USA would have ANY interest in attacking Iran, were it NOT for its illicit clandestine pursuit of nukes.

Meanwhile, “Death to the Great Satan America and the Little Satan Israel” Khomeinist Iran has done nothing *BUT* threaten (and in many cases attack indirectly) both the USA and Israel since its inception.

365 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:48:06pm

re: #341 drcordell

> You do understand that I did not personally write the tenets of political realism.

But you subscribe to it. so you have to defend it or abandon it.

> Obviously you cannot apply it to every situation throughout history. It is a guide, not a hard and fast rule.

Well, except you are treating it as a hard and fast rule, insisting that iran is a rational actor despite all the evidence to the contrary.

> The concept you are failing to understand is that each state acts in a way that they deem to be in their own self interest. Not what you, as an American, deem to be in their own self interest.

No, I have been directly challenging that claim. I have shown you many examples of nations behaving irrationally in a manner directly contrary to their self-interest.

So again, Chamberlain was acting in the self-interest of Britain when he let hitler grow the threat until his nation was bombed to shit? Ooooh-kay.

And what was the self-interest of the Taliban in letting AQ killed 3,000 americans?

And it was in iran’s interest to put in a president who is an obvious nut? As opposed to a guy who could hide his insanity better?

And it was in their interest to obviously rig his re-election?

It’s a funny definition of “rational actor” where the so-called rational actors constantly do things to screw themselves. indeed, it seems you have set up this theory to be unfalsifiable. however crazy and risky the conduct is, you will claim that it was in their best interest from their perspective. which even if true means they could do some really crazy shit.

> Saddam Hussein saw Kuwait slant-drilling his oil wells, and thought that invading Kuwait was in the interest of his nation.

No, Saddam saw himself as the Arabic hitler and decided to take over a small country thinking he could get away with it like Hitler did with Czechoslovakia. And don’t say “saddam wasn’t hitler.” Saddam after all wrote a book called “Unser Kampf”—translation: our struggle. He may not have been hitler, but it wasn’t for lack of trying.

> From the Iranian perspective, they see that the United States has invaded two of their neighboring countries, and has military bases in several others.

Right. We invaded one neighbor for killing our citizens and harboring terrorists, and another because we thought they had WMDs, among other things. So the rational way to avoid an invasion is… to kill our citizens in Iraq, harbor terrorists and to seek WMDs. That is a funny definition of rational behavior that they would do exactly what would lead us to swat them, thinking that they would avoid being swatted.

But then again our current president is such a pussy, I guess it isn’t so irrational after all.

Has it ever occurred to you that they want the nukes in order to, you know, wipe isreal off of the map? You know, like they said?

And what was rational about saying that, especially if they didn’t mean it?

> Irrational to you, rational to them.

I am sorry, so they are rational, self-intersted actors, who cannot rationally act in their self-interest?

And of course no one ever acts out of irrational impulses such as hate, prejudice, stupidity, religious faith, decency, sympathy, etc. (notice not all of those irrational impulses are bad, just irrational; indeed some are good in some people, and bad in others, like religious faith). We are all Vulcans, you know. *rolls eyes*

366 Chuck Martel  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:49:05pm

What we need is someone with experience in dealing with the Iranians … .

Where’s Jimmy Carter when you really need him?

367 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:50:05pm

re: #363 MacDuff

Ah, “realism”. I submit that faith and unshakable ideology have trumped “realism” on numerous occasions throughout human history. The fact that the United Sates exists is a good example of that.

As for pigeonholing you into being an “America hater”, has anyone actually said that? You seem to think appeasement is some sort of answer here, and that seems to be the crux of the disagreement.

Nowhere have I advocated for appeasement. The disagreement stems from the fact that certain lizards are having a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of realism. They seem to conflate acknowledgment of Iran’s self-interest to develop nuclear weapons with endorsement of Iran developing nuclear weapons.

As far as “drcordell is an America blaming librul” see #342 and #346

368 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:54:24pm

re: #359 drcordell

I’ll state this again. You are judging the rationality of these actions as an American. Realism does not state that all nations act in America’s best interest. They act in a way that they determine to be their own self-interest. Obviously this doesn’t work out as planned every single time. Plenty of world leaders have made poor decisions, and plenty more will. Just because you deem a leader’s actions to be irrational doesn’t mean they thought the same way.

Once again, my concern is with OUR self interest and that of our allies. What’s going on the muddled heads of despots should not effect our policies. You state that “Realism does not state that all nations act in America’s best interest”; no one expects them to do so. What I do expect is that American policy should not be subject to what may, or may not be in the heads of people who are clearly our opponents, if not our enemies.

Our policy should exemplify clarity of position. What other nations do with respect to that position is their decision, for better or worse.

369 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:57:45pm

re: #175 Killgore Trout

I think people are putting too much emphasis on speeches and words. Obama’s words aren’t powerful enough to change anything and I really don’t think it makes a big difference either way. Both are valid strategies but in the end it just doesn’t make any difference.

Now that’s odd… I could have sworn Killgore was one of the ones initially arguing that Obama was being perfectly good, just and wise by remaining silent, because any support he showed for the protesters would be used as a pretext for a crackdown.

And now that a) the crackdown happened anyway, and b) Obama’s statements have, if anything, lent legitimacy to the thuggish mullahcracy… suddenly his words “don’t make a big difference either way.”

It’s a real puzzler, so it is.

370 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:58:50pm

re: #359 drcordell

I’lll state this again. You are judging the rationality of these actions as an American. Realism does not state that all nations act in America’s best interest. They act in a way that they determine to be their own self-interest.

No, I am not. And it is disingenuous, or perhaps irrational, of you to pretend I am. When I say for instance that Gorbachev threw away his power, I am clearly talking about his self-interest.

When I say that Saddam antagonized us for a decade practically begging us to invade, I am talking about his self-interest. He is a dead man because of his behavior, and it’s a bizarre concept of rationality to pretend that a rational person in Saddam’s position wouldn’t see it coming.

When I say Neville Chamberlain and the nation of France let Hitler’s threat grow, until one nation was toppled and another was nearly so, I am again talking about how their interests were affected. It is again a strange definition of rationality that Chamberlain and the French couldn’t see the danger, given that Hitler laid it all out in Mein Kampf. But then again, you are repeating the same mistake with the current president of iran, and the mullahs behind them. They have explicitly said they want to see isreal destroyed for decades, and they are on the cusp of obtaining the ability to make their stated desires a reality. But you like all the sophisticated, “realistic” Europeans circa 1935 want to believe that they would never do what they have repeatedly said they wanted to do. It’s a strange concept of realism to refuse to even consider the possibility that a person means to do what they said they would do.

It is exceedingly clear to me that your concept of “realism” is more of a religion than a theory. It is non-refutable. No matter how crazy the behavior is, no matter how certain it is to bring their regime crashing down and to take their own personal lives, you rationalize it away as either an aberration, or a mistaken understanding of what is in their self-interest. How many times do people have to behave in a way that obviously is against their interest, that indeed is so stupid it qualifies them for a Darwin award, before you figure out that they aren’t exceptions but rather the rule?

371 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 12:59:47pm

And by the way: PREACH IT, MR. KRAUTHAMMER.

His article was bang-on (as usual).

Obama totally misses the point. The election allowed the political space and provided the spark for the eruption of anti-regime fervor that has been simmering for years and awaiting its moment. But people aren’t dying in the street because they want a recount of hanging chads in suburban Isfahan.

Ouch.

372 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:02:31pm

re: #371 Occasional Reader

And by the way: PREACH IT, MR. KRAUTHAMMER.

I just admire his intimate knowledge of the geography. :-)

373 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:02:46pm

re: #365 A.W.

For fucks sake, this is my last response and then I’m going to put the keyboard down because you just can’t seem to understand what I’m saying. And again, the only analogy you seem to be able to draw is that of WWII. But I’ll entertain you.

So again, Chamberlain was acting in the self-interest of Britain when he let hitler grow the threat until his nation was bombed to shit? Ooooh-kay.

Chamberlain was acting in what he believed to be in the self-interest of Great Britain at the time. He made his decisions in a world that had just seen continental Europe ravaged by war and millions of young men killed by mustard gas and machine gun fire. It’s real easy to armchair quarterback Chamberlain from 2009, but back then it wasn’t so easy. Having seen the horror of modern warfare truly unleashed for the first time, nobody was ready for another World War.

374 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:07:40pm

re: #367 drcordell

Nowhere have I advocated for appeasement. The disagreement stems from the fact that certain lizards are having a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of realism. They seem to conflate acknowledgment of Iran’s self-interest to develop nuclear weapons with endorsement of Iran developing nuclear weapons.

As far as “drcordell is an America blaming librul” see #342 and #346

Your post is a flagrant distortion; “drcordell is an America blaming librul” (your quote, with “liberal” spelled “librul”, apparently to denote ignorance) does not appear anywhere in those posts (#s342 and 346). I think you owe Kenneth an apology for your distortion of his statements as well as your cheap and dishonest denegration of his intellegence.

That sort of thing is exceedingly low class, deceptive and unworthy of this forum.

As far as the balance of your post, see my #368, I think it addresses your point.

375 Ornery Ballsack  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:12:08pm

re: #373 drcordell

There have been many replies of examples in history of dictators that are not acting in “rational self-interest” outside of WWII posted here. However, I now see the point you make. In a scenario where the Iranians instigate a war to usher in the age of the hidden imam, your reply would be “They were acting in what they believed to be “rational self-interest”, regardless of the fact that it was neither “rational” nor in their own “self interest”.

376 drcordell  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:15:37pm

re: #370 A.W.

Realism can be used to understand actions of nations, in all interactions both military and diplomatic. Yet in an effort to attack a theory that has been well proven by scholars more intelligent than both you and I, the only examples you provide are extreme aberrations. WWII must be considered the exception, not the rule. Yet in your worldview we must view every interaction with any other nation as a re-hash of this once-in-many-lifetimes event.

You keep bringing up Saddam Hussein. I believe Saddam Hussein was acting in a way that he believed to be in his own self interest. You believe he was acting against his own self interest i.e. he WANTED to have his regime overthrown. How does that make any sense at all? The man clung to his power until the bitter end.

Have you ever considered that Saddam Hussein provoked the US and UN by tossing out weapons inspectors in order to make the U.S. believe he actually DID have WMD’s? Because he lacked the WMD arsenal he sought for protection against invasion (and overthrow of his regime), Saddam basically bluffed. He decided to posture as if he had WMD stockpiles in an effort to convince the U.S. that it could not invade Iraq because he would use WMD on American troops.

377 Pianobuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:20:58pm

re: #376 drcordell

Realism can be used to understand actions of nations, in all interactions both military and diplomatic. Yet in an effort to attack a theory that has been well proven by scholars more intelligent than both you and I, the only examples you provide are extreme aberrations. WWII must be considered the exception, not the rule. Yet in your worldview we must view every interaction with any other nation as a re-hash of this once-in-many-lifetimes event.

You keep bringing up Saddam Hussein. I believe Saddam Hussein was acting in a way that he believed to be in his own self interest. You believe he was acting against his own self interest i.e. he WANTED to have his regime overthrown. How does that make any sense at all? The man clung to his power until the bitter end.

Have you ever considered that Saddam Hussein provoked the US and UN by tossing out weapons inspectors in order to make the U.S. believe he actually DID have WMD’s? Because he lacked the WMD arsenal he sought for protection against invasion (and overthrow of his regime), Saddam basically bluffed. He decided to posture as if he had WMD stockpiles in an effort to convince the U.S. that it could not invade Iraq because he would use WMD on American troops.

Seems not to be very rational to me…. your point?

378 Spartacus50  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:26:18pm

re: #74 experiencedtraveller

Choice A)
War hero of unimpeachable repute. Decades of experience in all levels of government.

Choice B)
Smooth talking, community organizing, political freshman.

Hmmmmm…

McCain really isn’t much better

379 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:29:59pm

re: #376 drcordell

Realism can be used to understand actions of nations, in all interactions both military and diplomatic. Yet in an effort to attack a theory that has been well proven by scholars more intelligent than both you and I, the only examples you provide are extreme aberrations. WWII must be considered the exception, not the rule. Yet in your worldview we must view every interaction with any other nation as a re-hash of this once-in-many-lifetimes event.

You keep bringing up Saddam Hussein. I believe Saddam Hussein was acting in a way that he believed to be in his own self interest. You believe he was acting against his own self interest i.e. he WANTED to have his regime overthrown. How does that make any sense at all? The man clung to his power until the bitter end.

Have you ever considered that Saddam Hussein provoked the US and UN by tossing out weapons inspectors in order to make the U.S. believe he actually DID have WMD’s? Because he lacked the WMD arsenal he sought for protection against invasion (and overthrow of his regime), Saddam basically bluffed. He decided to posture as if he had WMD stockpiles in an effort to convince the U.S. that it could not invade Iraq because he would use WMD on American troops.

I’m sure that all of this would be relevant in the realm of forensic psychology, but I see little relevance in terms of American foreign policy. We should not calibrate our policies to the lowest common denominators of humanity.

380 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:31:26pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yet in an effort to attack a theory that has been well proven by scholars more intelligent than both you and Ime

381 Mr Chompers  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:38:36pm

I think drcordell has been edumacated (sp?) today.
DO not mess with the lizards.

382 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 1:47:02pm

re: #367 drcordell

Oh, by the way, you still have not addressed your distortions and lies regarding Kenneth’s posts (#342 and #346) brought up in my post 374.

You seem very selective in your responses. Kenneth deserves an apology as you lied about what he said, used quotation marks indicating he made statements that he never made. and were overtly insulting.

On Kenneth’s behalf, and on behalf of Lizards everywhere, an accounting of your duplicitous and slanderous behavior is demanded!

383 Mr Chompers  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 2:02:58pm

Hey doc would you like to live under this Ahmadinejad ?
I thought libs did not like using fear as a tool.
Iranians live in fear for their lives and get no compassion from you.

384 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 2:13:17pm

Dr. Cordell

> And again, the only analogy you seem to be able to draw is that of WWII.

Seriously, are you trying to be this inaccurate? There is a point you will reach when you repeat that line again, that it will be clear that you are lying, either to us, or to yourself.

> Chamberlain was acting in what he believed to be in the self-interest of Great Britain at the time.

And I am saying, no, he wasn’t. he was acting out of a sense of misplaced guilt and an irrational fear of war. And it blinded him to the reality that if he stomped on hitler early, it would have been a short, easy little skirmish, instead of a murderous world war.

Bear in mind, under the armistice, hitler wasn’t even supposed to have an army above 100,000, no navy, no air force, no Rhineland, no danzig corridor, no Sudetenland and a massive debt. And if we held him to that, either the war with Germany wouldn’t have happened, or it would have been very short indeed. Their irrational fear of war paved the way to a massive war and holocaust.

But instead as Hitler systematically destroyed democracy in his nation, and broke every one of those rules, they sat on their hands. They did nothing as Germany went from a mouse to a lion, and by the time anyone realized there was anything to be done, they were half-devoured. It was one of history’s great blunders and don’t tell me they couldn’t have seen it coming. Because Churchill did and FDR did, too. They didn’t see it coming because THEY DIDN’T WANT TO. They didn’t see it coming because they irrationally discounted the possibility that Hitler would do exactly what he said he would do.

And you would have us repeat the same error with Iran. Iran doesn’t want nukes for defense. They know we have no interest, no intention of attacking them so long as they leave us alone. They have created the tension and then they want to pretend that they are a victim of the big mean US. Well only a useful idiot buys that.

> Realism can be used to understand actions of nations, in all interactions both military and diplomatic.

Except in all the hundreds of cases where it doesn’t actually work. Like Gorbachev, the Romanovs, each and every one of the dynasties of china, mao, the emporer of japan, chamberlain, france, hitler, Louis XVI, Napoleon, England circa 1776, England in fighting the slave trade, the crusades, the glorious revolution of 1688, Cromwell, the current regime in Iran especially in doing such a poor job faking the election, and so on.

I mean you remind me of the characters in the Life of Brian saying, “All right… all right… but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order… what have the Romans done for us?” Again, at some point there are enough exceptions to doubt the purported rule.

> You believe he was acting against his own self interest i.e. he WANTED to have his regime overthrown. How does that make any sense at all?

You can act against your self interest without wanting to. You could act out of ego, for instance, which often goes hand in hand with alleged absolute power. But acting out of ego is not rationally acting out of self-interest, now is it? Or you could act out of religious fervor, hate, love, lust, decency, and so on. All of these have been important motivators of dictators and even presidents throughout history.

This theory of realism is the blindfold you have put over your eyes.

385 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 2:14:03pm

Dr. Cordell, cont.

> Have you ever considered that Saddam Hussein provoked the US and UN by tossing out weapons inspectors in order to make the U.S. believe he actually DID have WMD’s?

Actually we know for a fact that is exactly what he did. Which doesn’t seem very rational, does it?

> Because he lacked the WMD arsenal he sought for protection against invasion (and overthrow of his regime), Saddam basically bluffed.

But that is circular logic. We wanted to overthrow him in part because we believed he had WMDS. So he pretended to have WMDs to prevent us from overthrowing him because he had WMDs. Come on, you know how this song goes… “There’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza…” [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Certainly trying to fool a nation as large as ours into thinking it has a reason to need to crush you is a funny definition of rationally acting in one’s self-interest. Its funny how you constantly define rational self-interest in such a manner that no rational person would think is in their self-interest. And hey, if you want to take that view, that “rational self-interest” can lead you to do some batshit crazy and self-destructive things, okay, but then it doesn’t comfort us much to say that iran is rationally self-interested given how batshit crazy you think a person can be when being “rationally self-interested.”

386 Ornery Ballsack  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 2:20:57pm

re: #384 A.W.

And you dropped a fine Monty Python reference. Bravo!

387 A.W.  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 2:29:36pm

re: #386 Ornery Ballsack

And you dropped a fine Monty Python reference. Bravo!

There is a genius in those movies (and skits) in how applicable they can be to life.

388 MacDuff  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 2:32:00pm

re: #384 A.W.
re: #385 A.W.

Absolutely riveting Screed! I’ve been arguing with this putz all day and he has yet to address one substantive point. He’s lied and equivocated, bobbed and weaved, but has not ONCE backed up his BS with any logic.

KUDOS for bringing down the hammer!

389 odorlesspaintthinner  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 2:33:03pm

re: #293 formercorpsman

Nice that you have something of substance to contribute.

Is substance a requirement for posts on here? If so, there’s certainly a fair amount of substance abuse going on. I think my comment says succinctly exactly what I want to say. Obama said abortion is above his pay grade, but lecturing the world on the virtues of Islam, with a fair amount of history abuse, is at his pay grade?

390 Darwin Akbar  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 2:37:32pm

The question of Iran and its nukes and whether it compares with Europe 1938 goes back to culture, which is always the key.
The British and French were shellshocked by the carnage of the Great War that, culturally, they were unable or unwilling to face the prospect of stopping the growing German war machine. The Germans never lost their sense of militarism and grievance, and were willing to accept the argument that they lost the Great War due to betrayals by the Bolsheviks and the Jews. They gambled - correctly - that the British and French had lost their appetites for confrontation. That’s why the same French army which fought and died so bravely in the Great War could be routed in 3 weeks in 1940.

With Iran, culture is still what’s important. If the Netherlands had nukes, you wouldn’t care. But suppose Iran has a nuke and someone in Denmark publishes another Mohammed cartoon. Last time, Iran demanded that the cartoonists be arrested and turned over to Iran for an Islamic trial. You could laugh at that demand two years ago, but suppose this next time, they make the same demand only with a nuclear bomb in their back pocket. Who’s to say they won’t threaten to use it? If you think the west is too spineless when dealing with Muslim craziness, just wait…you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

391 Kohenan the Barbarian  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 3:29:46pm

Iran is not ,never was ,and,never will be anything resembling a democratic Republic—-whether puppet psycho Jew- hater Dinnerjacket or any substitute replacement— who is most “popular” or not is irrelevant—all depends on the whim of the Supreme Ayatola ,the ultimate for life undisputed power broker in this Islamic Theocracy—all of those protesting throngs both for and against the “election results” will not change the Iranian impetus to nuclear arms nor the Islamic goal of expunging Israel and those interloper Jews on Muslim Lands—-the core issue is that Obama has not drawn a time line in the sand to confront the global nuclear threat posed by a lunatic irrational backward culture capable of igniting a nuclear castastrophy with it’s fixation on their Jewish problem—the resulting backlash is a massive pre-emptive strike by Israel alone to prevent another genocide Iran has repeatedly threatened —a limit military option has the inevitable risk of reciprocal damage by a partially wounded enemy.

392 Pauley  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 5:25:19pm

A good leader is one who makes quick decisions and deals with the results.
A bad leader is one who makes no decisions.

393 I Need A Bigger Gun  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 7:30:08pm

re: #55 Buck

This is that 3AM call!

Yes, and it went straight to voice-mail.

394 landline  Fri, Jun 19, 2009 11:54:44pm

I believe our current president believes in a modified version of the Smuckers commercial: “With a religion like Islam a county has to be good.”

395 FrogMarch  Sat, Jun 20, 2009 5:31:14am

We were told Obama’s soothing words could heal the planet - and now when the Iranian people could use some of those words, the guy is virtually silent.

396 ihateronpaul  Sat, Jun 20, 2009 8:22:56am

suffice to say openly encouraging revolution isn’t the best way to go about this in my opinion. Others may differ from me but I don’t find it shocking that obama is not taking a Reaganesque stance on this

397 Flavia  Sat, Jun 20, 2009 8:39:24am

I didn’t mind him not speaking out immediately - let’s face it: our support of the Shah led to a great deal of anger, resentment & problems. But, at this point, I think he should be saying something.

Then again, I thought Bush took too long to retaliate for 9/11 - but he was correct in what he did.

So, who knows? I HOPE (get it?) Obama will do something right & soon, but I’m not holding my breath.

What I do know is that it’s unfair to blame Hillary for anything he does - she is just the messenger at best.

398 Dave Brown  Sat, Jun 20, 2009 9:10:37am

I generally agree with Krauthammer, and I strongly agree that anything that gets rid of Ahmadinejad is a good thing (how could anyone be worse?). However he’s being unrealistic or disingenuous if he expects us to believe that Mousavi won’t continue to support Hezbollah and Hamas:

“Iran is not expected to change its ambitions to expand its influence in the Middle East and Central Asia, regardless of who wins. Its ties with Syria will not cool, its influence in Iraq will not diminish and its support for Hamas, Hezbollah and countries like Sudan and Algeria will deepen” - Haaretz

Although… if the (lightly authenticated) reports of Hamas collusion with Ahmadinejad are true, I suppose it might leave Mousavi supporters with a bad taste (and blood) in their mouths:

‘Hamas helping Iran crush dissent’; Palestinian Hamas members are helping the Iranian authorities crush street protests in support of reformist presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi, two protesters told The Jerusalem Post On Tuesday. - Jerusalem Post

Guess we’ll see. Meanwhile, the nukes are still being built, and the clock is ticking….

399 cpk  Sat, Jun 20, 2009 9:12:25am

I think Krauthammer’s Monday-morning quarterbacking is vapid. Even though our recognition of Iran’s government is tenuous at best, heads of state cannot be caught formally rooting for civil war. It just Isn’t Done. Period. No Republican would do it, either. Krauthammer utterly forgets this.

That job is best left to legislatures, who can at least have the plausible deniability of a mob mentality. Obama can play good-cop bad-cop with Congress on this issue, and the protesters in Iran will know everything they need to know.

Incidentally, they knew that anyway. What well-educated Iranian doesn’t know that Americans despise their government? I mean, come on now. Obama’s stance on this matter is utterly irrelevant. He can only do harm, not good.

400 cpk  Sat, Jun 20, 2009 9:15:58am

Oh, and by the way. Krauthammer? Put this in your pipe and smoke it:

This Iranian woman (I think it’s a woman) says all that needs to be said by anyone. Obama doesn’t need to say anything.


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