Klinghoffer Kind of Agrees: ‘Darwinism is a Lie Sprung Straight from the Pit of Hell’

Science • Views: 1,989

Discovery Institute Senior Fellow David Klinghoffer’s blog at Beliefnet is really a hoot — I’ve been checking in regularly. Here’s a good entry from this week, in which Klinghoffer is hard pressed to disagree with the contention that “Darwinism is a lie sprung straight from the pit of Hell!?

I did a radio interview today with a fellow down in Texas who had a real preacher’s style. Entertaining guy but at one point he asked, letting his voice rise and rise like he was at the pulpit, “David, would you not saaaay that Darwinism is a lie, from its top to its bottom, sprung straight from the pit of Hell!?” 

There was sort of an awkward pause. I’m a pretty mild and soft-spoken kind of person. I didn’t want to disagree with him, but I couldn’t quite echo his sentiment, neither the style nor the substance. “Well,” I offered, “that’s not exactly the way I would put, though I like your formulation! What I would say is that it’s a delusion with, um, some very negative social consequences.” I felt bad about having to disappoint him.

Jump to bottom

457 comments
1 BignJames  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:51:12pm

AAAnnndddd……BEHOLD1 He came upon a flat, slick, river rock.

2 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:51:28pm

One might wonder, purely as a matter of speculation, where someone who has such an intimate knowledge of the pit of hell sprang from.

3 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:52:01pm

This was on the toob last night, so I feel compelled to link this scene.

So true.

4 Truck Monkey  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:52:19pm

I like the first comment. “Just because I am a Christian does not mean I have to park my brain at the church door.”

5 [deleted]  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:52:50pm
6 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:55:56pm

I can think of several much more serious threats to Christianity than Darwinism.
Marxism, for starters. And fascist personality cults- Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jim Jones….

7 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:56:40pm

re: #5 buzzsawmonkey

Aw, c’mon! Pit of Hell! Pit of Hell!

And from the pits of Hell, a bat:

8 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:57:07pm

Two threads, back to back. Climate change and evolution. A one-two flounce punch. Heads are sure to be popping all over the webs.

9 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:57:09pm

So when are they going to start burning people at the stake?
/////////
I guess we can challenge them to try to float the lightest pebble they can find.

10 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 6:59:00pm

re: #8 Slumbering Behemoth

Two threads, back to back. Climate change and evolution. A one-two flounce punch. Heads are sure to be popping all over the webs.

Are you saying these posts are flounce bait?

11 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:00:16pm

re: #6 Jim in Virginia

I can think of several much more serious threats to Christianity than Darwinism.
Marxism, for starters. And fascist personality cults- Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jim Jones….

Ah, but you forget. Satanically inspired Darwinism is exactly what created those evil people.
/

12 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:00:21pm

re: #8 Slumbering Behemoth

Two threads, back to back. Climate change and evolution. A one-two flounce punch. Heads are sure to be popping all over the webs.

Can we open registration? We need to entice in some trolls for Sunday dinner!

13 [deleted]  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:00:51pm
14 HoosierHoops  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:01:01pm

Anybody remember the old Cosmo’s episode with Carl Sagan talking about evolution? It was so awesome then at the end he goes.. Evolution isn’t a theory…It’s a fact..Good old Carl… I miss his shows..We lost a good man.

15 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:01:10pm

re: #13 buzzsawmonkey

‘Nite.

‘Nite Buzz

16 Basho  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:01:11pm

Evolution is delusional but hell is just fine.

17 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:01:28pm

Corporal Klinghoffer has spoken yet again!

//

18 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:01:46pm

re: #16 Basho

Evolution is delusional but hell is just fine.


Except on rainy days

19 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:02:13pm

re: #17 Gus 802

Corporal Klinghoffer has spoken yet again!

//

“He Knows Nothing!”

20 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:02:23pm

re: #9 Idle Drifter

So when are they going to start burning people at the stake?

Sorry, no permit for that. Too much carbon footprint.

21 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:02:23pm

re: #13 buzzsawmonkey

‘Nite.

Most.Disappointing.Flounce.EVAH

/

22 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:02:37pm

re: #10 Charles

Are you saying these posts are flounce bait?

If I said that, then I’d just be copying Killgore from last thread. I didn’t wanna get sued for copyright infringement, so I altered it a bit.

23 Truck Monkey  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:02:53pm

re: #18 A Kiwi Infidel

Except on rainy days

You cannot open the gates of hell on rainy days. This is fact.
/

24 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:03:26pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

“He Knows Nothing!”

We shall see after we put him in zi cooler for two weeks. //

25 Jack Burton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:04:27pm

Evilution! Through it Satan will consume you… and then spit you out, into the eternal fires of HELL, where for all eternity your flesh will be ripped from your body… by grotesque serpents… with razor sharp teeth! Your blood will boil, your bones will burn, and your marrow will be reduced to a putrid black SLIME… for what? So that scientists can say that you are no better than a monkey allowing you to reject GOD and FORNICATE like ANIMALS!

/the stupid… it burnses us precious!

26 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:04:52pm

re: #20 Dar ul Harb

Sorry, no permit for that. Too much carbon footprint.

So it’s either being dunked in water or being crushed by rocks… oh, wait water boarding is illegal so it’s being crushed by rocks.

//More weight!

27 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:05:28pm

Pit of Hell .. dude … Purgatory is where its at … a holding pattern of sorts …

28 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:05:56pm

Darwinism leads to “negative social consequences” according to Klingerhoffer. I’m sure we know what the list would look like. Surprisingly he didn’t bring up Hitler which is who they always bring up. Same old paranoid and boring conclusions of “social consequences.”

29 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:06:13pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

“He Knows Nothing!”

re: #24 Gus 802

We shall see after we put him in zi cooler for two weeks. //

That’s Sergeant Schultz. He’s a Russian Front denialist I think.
My favorite line from Hogan’s Heroes: “You don’t have to worry about going to the Russian Front, it’s coming here.”

30 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:06:19pm

Notice the usual attempt to trick people into thinking they are in the ID camp just by virtue of believing in God and accepting evolution:

Richard
June 18, 2009 11:01 PM

Actually I would have said, “No I think that creationism is for those who don’t like reality.” Anyone who thinks that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs walked alongside people need to have their heads examined. I am a Christian but I believe that we evolved. (God was behind the process of course.) And just because I am a Christian does not mean I have to park my brain at the church door.


David Klinghoffer
June 18, 2009 11:43 PM

Then welcome to the intelligent-design community, Richard!

31 Kronocide  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:06:34pm

Let’s get an abortion thread, it would be a Flouncefecta.

32 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:06:38pm

re: #26 Idle Drifter

So it’s either being dunked in water or being crushed by rocks… oh, wait water boarding is illegal so it’s being crushed by rocks.

//More weight!

A press with light starch, if you please.

33 HoosierHoops  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:06:40pm

re: #25 ArchangelMichael

Evilution! Through it Satan will consume you… and then spit you out, into the eternal fires of HELL, where for all eternity your flesh will be ripped from your body… by grotesque serpents… with razor sharp teeth! Your blood will boil, your bones will burn, and your marrow will be reduced to a putrid black SLIME… for what? So that scientists can say that you are no better than a monkey allowing you to reject GOD and FORNICATE like ANIMALS!

/the stupid… it burnses us precious!

It’s all fun and games till somebody opens the 9th gate of Hell….

34 Jack Burton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:06:53pm

re: #28 Gus 802

Darwinism leads to “negative social consequences” according to Klingerhoffer. I’m sure we know what the list would look like. Surprisingly he didn’t bring up Hitler which is who they always bring up. Same old paranoid and boring conclusions of “social consequences.”

He must have checked urban dictionary to figure out who this “Godwin” character is everyone accuses him of invoking.

35 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:07:54pm

re: #34 ArchangelMichael

He must have checked urban dictionary to figure out who this “Godwin” character is everyone accuses him of invoking.

Could that mean that Klingerhoffer has, evolved?

36 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:08:19pm

re: #16 Basho

LOL!

37 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:08:32pm

re: #35 Gus 802

Could that mean that Klingerhoffer has, evolved?

You have HOPE that he’s CHANGEd?

/it is the Age of Obama
/the moon is in the seventh house

38 Jack Burton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:08:53pm

re: #35 Gus 802

Could that mean that Klingerhoffer has, evolved?

Where’s the transitional form?

39 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:09:51pm

re: #38 ArchangelMichael

Where’s the transitional form?

i eated it

/burp

40 Egregious Philbin  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:10:01pm

Creationists are just stupid.

Period.

Knowingly stupid, they revel in it like swine in dirt.

41 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:10:04pm

Time to make the marinade. See y’all in a few.

42 VioletTiger  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:10:13pm

Not just hell, but the pit of hell! That’s pretty deep.

Anybody else see that Creation Museum commercial thing they have on Fox in the morning?

43 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:10:44pm

re: #42 VioletTiger

Not just hell, but the pit of hell! That’s pretty deep.

Anybody else see that Creation Museum commercial thing they have on Fox in the morning?

Seriously? On Fox?

44 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:10:55pm

re: #39 OldLineTexan

i eated it

/burp

Survival of the fattest, eh?

45 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:11:23pm

re: #44 Dar ul Harb

Survival of the fattest, eh?

it wuz loar on teh fud chane

46 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:11:57pm

re: #37 OldLineTexan

You have HOPE that he’s CHANGEd?

/it is the Age of Obama
/the moon is in the seventh house

47 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:12:06pm

re: #16 Basho

Evolution is delusional but hell is just fine.

Evolution is the creation of hell and is therefore evil, and hell is the creation of the most wonderful, most merciful thing in existence. Yeah, makes perfect sense./

48 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:12:24pm

re: #38 ArchangelMichael

Where’s the transitional form?

Punctuated evolution. Or is that spontaneous evolution?

//I canz be si-intest tu. DI here I com!

49 freetoken  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:13:29pm

Well, here it is, proof positive that Darwin leads to Communism:

Heh… if Ann says so, who are we to not believe?

/you know, these Kennedy videos get shown to lots and lots of people…

50 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:13:30pm

I liked the first comment on Klingfoffers blog: Actually I would have said, “No I think that creationism is for those who don’t like reality.” Anyone who thinks that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs walked alongside people need to have their heads examined. I am a Christian but I believe that we evolved. (God was behind the process of course.) And just because I am a Christian does not mean I have to park my brain at the church door.

51 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:13:37pm

Anybody seen Gymnast since the shitbird comment the other day? I’m sorta expecting a flounce from him…

52 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:14:30pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

Anybody seen Gymnast since the shitbird comment the other day? I’m sorta expecting a flounce from him…

I think he got mad about “sick fucks” being funnier.

/

53 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:15:14pm

re: #52 OldLineTexan

LOL!

54 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:15:19pm

re: #47 Jimmah

Evolution is the creation of hell and is therefore evil, and hell is the creation of the most wonderful, most merciful thing in existence. Yeah, makes perfect sense./

Have a care not to lump all religious people in with the ones you’re mad at.

55 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:15:35pm

re: #49 freetoken

Well, here it is, proof positive that Darwin leads to Communism:

And Communism leads to …dancing?

56 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:16:12pm

Has anyone said that Kilnghoffer is a weenie? If not, Kilnghoffer is a weenie. Kinda’ wimpy, too. Yeah. A wimpy weenie.

57 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:16:41pm

re: #55 Dar ul Harb

And Communism leads to …dancing?

Which leads to sex …

58 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:16:45pm

re: #49 freetoken

Well, here it is, proof positive that Darwin leads to Communism:


[Video]

Heh… if Ann says so, who are we to not believe?

/you know, these Kennedy videos get shown to lots and lots of people…

Great. Now I need some brain bleach.

59 schnapp  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:17:40pm

The whole “the earth is round” myth cam from the same place too. And Galileo was in fact Satan’s spawn himself! :P

60 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:17:50pm

re: #57 OldLineTexan

I thought sex leads to dancing. Damn am I mixed up!

61 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:17:52pm

re: #55 Dar ul Harb

And Communism leads to …dancing?

yes inthe same way that playing cards leads to teenage pregnancy

62 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:18:01pm

re: #55 Dar ul Harb

Dance?

63 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:18:25pm

re: #61 albusteve

yes inthe same way that playing cards leads to teenage pregnancy

albusteve … strip poker? … just sayin ..

64 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:18:34pm

re: #40 Egregious Philbin

Creationists are just stupid.

Period.

Knowingly stupid, they revel in it like swine in dirt.

They want to prove that all those smart nerdy types who actually understand science can’t argue them down; as though this, rather than making everyone’s life better, were the real objective of those smart science types.
Scientific knowledge is a personal threat to them, pure and simple, since it represents a kind of power they could never have themselves. I grew up around anti-intellectual rednecks. The hatred and hostility they exhibit toward any kind of intelligence or achievement is literally palpable, there are actual physical symptoms that become easy to recognize as you go through life defending yourself from the brainless rage of morons.
They tense up and give you this suspicious sideways glare as though you have just said something about their wife’s one night stands or something. These assholes wonder why they get pissed on every time someone with a brain has the chance.

65 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:18:52pm

re: #60 Irenicum

I thought sex leads to dancing. Damn am I mixed up!

Typical Baptist error.

/

66 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:18:59pm

re: #57 OldLineTexan

Which leads to sex …

Which lame-o’s like Klinghoffer don’t get any of.

67 Basho  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:19:55pm

Evolution is a delusional idea because God isn’t almighty enough to have come up with it.

68 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:02pm

re: #61 albusteve

Yeah, ya might get decked up!

69 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:07pm

re: #63 JacksonTn

albusteve … strip poker? … just sayin ..

SEE!…strip poker leads to lust….even worse

70 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:12pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Which lame-o’s like Klinghoffer don’t get any of.

Why he outta start hanging out at some pool halls and start drinking some sarsaparilla.

//

71 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:24pm

Oh, we’ve got trouble
right here in River City

72 freetoken  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:30pm

4:29AM

That is my guess of the time, when the lurking creationist posts a great rebuttal on this thread.

73 VioletTiger  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:35pm

re: #43 Gus 802

Seriously? On Fox?

Yeah, it had Noah and the dove with the olive branch. “Prepare to believe!”

Just what do they put in a fairy tale museum?

74 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:44pm

re: #69 albusteve

SEE!…strip poker leads to lust….even worse

albusteve … um … I want the even worse part myself … hahahaha ….

75 Basho  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:49pm

re: #64 Shiplord Kirel

I feel ya on every word you said.

76 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:20:57pm

re: #54 OldLineTexan

Have a care not to lump all religious people in with the ones you’re mad at.

Not all religious people are willing to believe in hell, and those who do almost invariably reveal doubts when you start talking to them in depth about what it means.

77 Logician  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:21:20pm

Calling Darwinism false merely requires ignorance or a fairly high level of willful misunderstanding of arguments. Calling it a lie is in a different league. It is claiming, at a minimum, that Charles Darwin and those biologists and other scientists who endorse the theory today, know that it is false and deliberately propagate it with the intention of causing various evil consequences. In particular, it is claiming that those scientists know that their own scientific life’s work is a sham, put up solely with the objective of promoting that agenda. That is a conspiracy theory of mind-boggling proportions and bespeaks a world view as divorced from reality as that of any Ahmedinejad or Chomsky.

78 VioletTiger  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:21:35pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

Anybody seen Gymnast since the shitbird comment the other day? I’m sorta expecting a flounce from him…

I thought gymnast was a she?

79 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:21:40pm

re: #73 VioletTiger

Yeah, it had Noah and the dove with the olive branch. “Prepare to believe!”

Just what do they put in a fairy tale museum?

Giant plastic dinosaurs amongst blue eyed cave people figures.

//

80 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:21:41pm

re: #70 Gus 802

Why he outta start hanging out at some pool halls and start drinking some sarsaparilla.

//

Then ya got trouble!

81 Basho  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:21:44pm

re: #64 Shiplord Kirel

I favorited that comment so I could plagiarize you later because you put a lot of things I couldn’t express into words.

82 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:22:00pm

re: #64 Shiplord Kirel

“brainless rage of morons”

I may have to borrow that sometime!

83 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:22:01pm

uncontrolled lust is the precurser to climate change…feel the heat?

84 Kronocide  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:22:03pm

Listened to some of a debate on Medved between Shermer and this guy.

Shermer is pretty solid. Most of the debate covered Darwin and whether he was theistic or not… as if that has anything to do with evolution and the continuing studies of it.

Why is it that discussion of Darwin many times ends up being a valuation or validation of theism?

85 BignJames  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:22:07pm

re: #48 Gus 802

Punctuated evolution. Or is that spontaneous evolution?

//I canz be si-intest tu. DI here I com!


Truncated evolution.

86 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:22:16pm

re: #80 OldLineTexan

Then ya got trouble!

With a capital T?

87 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:22:25pm

re: #76 Jimmah

Not all religious people are willing to believe in hell, and those who do almost invariably reveal doubts when you start talking to them in depth about what it means.

If you say so.

88 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:23:14pm

re: #64 Shiplord Kirel

Very well said.

89 HoosierHoops  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:23:29pm

The Pit’s of hell? I knew that is where science would lead us..
Science thread! Dr. C gave a very insightful talk in Dublin last Weds..
All about the Big Bang theory…fact and fiction. His blog….
[Link: coraifeartaigh.wordpress.com…]

90 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:23:50pm

re: #80 OldLineTexan

Then ya got trouble!

I remember “back in the old days” they were always blaming decadence on pool halls. Great video.

91 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:23:58pm

The Creationist, including the ID, vision of the universe is an insult to the real Creator. It disregards all we know about time and space, limiting it not just to this speck of dust in the whole Cosmos but to the brief instant that constitutes human history. Their universe is far less compared to the real one than a bacterium is to the whole Earth.
What a degraded and low form of life they truly are, they have sold their million year human heritage for a few shots at those who threaten their complacent ignorance.

92 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:24:01pm

fun will be the demise of the human race

93 Jack Burton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:24:18pm

re: #73 VioletTiger

Yeah, it had Noah and the dove with the olive branch. “Prepare to believe!”

Just what do they put in a fairy tale museum?

The have showings of that great antediluvian biblically & historically accurate documentary series… The Flintstones, but only the early ones. Those ones with Pebbles and Bam-Bam as teenagers are apocryphal.

94 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:24:21pm

Speaking of things to make people’s heads explode:

There was an article in the NYT science section the other day about a new study mapping both the different species and the population sizes of the various cutaneous, um, bugs that inhabit the largest organ of the human body - the skin. They did swabs from every section of the body and found (I’m pulling this straight from medium-term memory, so I may be off) something like 2,400 different brands of bacteria on everybody. The absolute numbers of the populations are of course in the quintillions. Well, maybe not quint-, but certainly bil.

Turns out the folks who obsess about weeny bugs and spend billions a year for antibacterial soaps etc. are not only fighting an absolutely Sisyphean battle, but are probably doing themselves more harm than good. They’re now thinking that various skin diseases may not be due so much to bugs per se but to the wrong mix of bugs.

We need the little guys. They are part of who we are.

I guess the question for creationists is: During which part of the day when man was made did God create the corresponding bugs?

95 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:24:58pm

re: #90 Gus 802

I remember “back in the old days” they were always blaming decadence on pool halls. Great video.

We got gang violence with ours … refugee Vietnamese “bida” hall, utter gang hangout.

96 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:25:01pm

monkeys couldn’t make less sense,
the problem with evolution is we don’t have enough of it

97 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:25:01pm

re: #78 VioletTiger

I thought gymnast was a she?

Even better. Everyone knows girls flounce better.

98 the_thermonuclear_pickle  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:25:37pm

I’m ashamed to be of the same ethnicity as this Klinghoffer bloke.

Really, really ashamed.

:(

99 Kronocide  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:26:01pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

Anybody seen Gymnast since the shitbird comment the other day?

Once flounced, I’ll be working on my Shitbird pin to go next to my Honco stripe.

100 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:26:17pm

re: #77 Logician

that’s all very logical, but I think the convention here is that Satan knows it’s a lie and everyone else is a dupe.

101 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:26:31pm

re: #97 Cato the Elder

Even better. Everyone knows girls flounce better.

And guys in skirts creep me out.

/I said skirts, not kilts. All you Scots simmer down.

/

102 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:26:50pm

re: #95 OldLineTexan

We got gang violence with ours … refugee Vietnamese “bida” hall, utter gang hangout.

Really? That’s too bad. I’m glad to be far away from any gang activity and still live in Denver. Don’t like it at all.

103 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:26:51pm

re: #79 Gus 802

Sadly, not far from the truth. I know numerous people who count it a point of honor to have visited this “museum”.

104 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:27:25pm

re: #101 OldLineTexan

And guys in skirts creep me out.

/I said skirts, not kilts. All you Scots simmer down.

/

tosses telephone pole

105 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:27:32pm

And, sex leads to smoking!

106 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:28:24pm

re: #103 Irenicum

Sadly, not far from the truth. I know numerous people who count it a point of honor to have visited this “museum”.

Maybe they should rename it the “Creationist Nauseum.” /

107 schnapp  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:28:38pm

re: #104 albusteve

“They can take our lives, but they can never take our kilts!” - William Wallace.
I’m pretty sure that’s how it goes.

108 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:29:16pm

for gods sake, save Mother Earth…outlaw orgasms!

109 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:29:26pm

Do you smoke after sex?

I don’t know, I never looked.

[rimshot]

110 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:29:35pm

re: #27 JacksonTn

Pit of Hell .. dude … Purgatory is where its at … a holding pattern of sorts …

LOL!

111 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:29:40pm

re: #91 Shiplord Kirel

Boy, Shiplord, you’re on a roll tonight! Keep rolling! I like it.

112 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:29:41pm

re: #102 Gus 802

Really? That’s too bad. I’m glad to be far away from any gang activity and still live in Denver. Don’t like it at all.

The Houston cops shut it down about six times … this was back in the ‘80’s where I lived. The same gang(s) had a high noon shotgun-to-the-face execution at a fish shop facing an intersection of two four-lane streets. It took the HPD years to get enough on them to drive it underground.

113 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:30:02pm

re: #109 Cato the Elder

Do you smoke after sex?

I don’t know, I never looked.

[rimshot]

I loves da classix.

114 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:30:18pm

re: #94 Cato the Elder

Turns out the folks who obsess about weeny bugs and spend billions a year for antibacterial soaps etc. are not only fighting an absolutely Sisyphean battle, but are probably doing themselves more harm than good. They’re now thinking that various skin diseases may not be due so much to bugs per se but to the wrong mix of bugs.

Same old story - messing with complex environments before we understand them well enough, and unbalancing them.

115 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:31:08pm

re: #92 albusteve

Yeah, if by fun you mean fundamentalism, emphasis on the mental.

116 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:31:52pm

re: #114 Jimmah

Same old story - messing with complex environments before we understand them well enough, and unbalancing them.

So the anti-vaxers are just trying to save us from screwing with nature?

/

117 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:32:36pm

re: #112 OldLineTexan

The Houston cops shut it down about six times … this was back in the ‘80’s where I lived. The same gang(s) had a high noon shotgun-to-the-face execution at a fish shop facing an intersection of two four-lane streets. It took the HPD years to get enough on them to drive it underground.

Would you say that part of the problem is the “revolving door” of the judicial system? They’re too easy on criminals. Too many plea bargains.

118 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:33:11pm

re: #94 Cato the Elder

Speaking of things to make people’s heads explode:

There was an article in the NYT science section the other day about a new study mapping both the different species and the population sizes of the various cutaneous, um, bugs that inhabit the largest organ of the human body - the skin. They did swabs from every section of the body and found (I’m pulling this straight from medium-term memory, so I may be off) something like 2,400 different brands of bacteria on everybody. The absolute numbers of the populations are of course in the quintillions. Well, maybe not quint-, but certainly bil.

Turns out the folks who obsess about weeny bugs and spend billions a year for antibacterial soaps etc. are not only fighting an absolutely Sisyphean battle, but are probably doing themselves more harm than good. They’re now thinking that various skin diseases may not be due so much to bugs per se but to the wrong mix of bugs.

We need the little guys. They are part of who we are.

I guess the question for creationists is: During which part of the day when man was made did God create the corresponding bugs?

And people who use those anti-bacterial hand lotions (in lieu of washing their hands), are missing all the viruses they come into contact with, and probably wonder why they’re getting sick.

119 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:33:38pm

re: #94 Cato the Elder

Ya gotta luv the Tuesday Times! I grew up on that, thanks to my sister.

120 VioletTiger  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:33:39pm

re: #93 ArchangelMichael

But do they have one of these?

121 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:34:25pm

re: #114 Jimmah

Same old story - messing with complex environments before we understand them well enough, and unbalancing them.

Well, I think it’s been pretty well established that kids who grow up in less-than-spotless (non-“clean room”) environments - you know, with cats and dogs and hamsters and dust bunnies and ring around the collar and soap scum and ground-in carpet dirt and mudpies in the back yard - do better, immunologically speaking, than their bubble-boy counterparts.

Best thing of all is to be raised in a barn.

122 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:34:37pm

re: #117 Gus 802

Would you say that part of the problem is the “revolving door” of the judicial system? They’re too easy on criminals. Too many plea bargains.

The problem the at least was a large group of instant immigrants, and a police department that was incapable of reaching into the community (language barrier, culture barrier). In Texas, we lock everybody up (apparently).

123 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:35:13pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

And people who use those anti-bacterial hand lotions (in lieu of washing their hands), are missing all the viruses they come into contact with, and probably wonder why they’re getting sick.

Sorry, it’s a requirment around my grandson the heart patient, laid down by the doctors.

124 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:35:18pm

re: #105 MandyManners

And, sex leads to smoking!

If you’re good at it.

heh.

125 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:35:53pm

re: #77 Logician

You’ve only scratched the surface. That’s all part of a larger conspiracy to help Coulter sell books.
////

126 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:35:53pm

re: #101 OldLineTexan

That’s right if you know what’s good for ya! I’ll show you fotografic evidence if need be!

127 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:37:26pm

re: #121 Cato the Elder

bravo!….had a barn cat for 23 years and she was never sick a day in her life….not quite the same thing, but still

128 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:38:02pm

re: #116 OldLineTexan

So the anti-vaxers are just trying to save us from screwing with nature?

/

The “before we understand them well enough” bit is crucial. In the case of vaccines it’s those who oppose it who lack the understanding.

129 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:38:20pm

re: #121 Cato the Elder

Well, I think it’s been pretty well established that kids who grow up in less-than-spotless (non-“clean room”) environments - you know, with cats and dogs and hamsters and dust bunnies and ring around the collar and soap scum and ground-in carpet dirt and mudpies in the back yard - do better, immunologically speaking, than their bubble-boy counterparts.

Best thing of all is to be raised in a barn.

Well, there weren’t any barns were I lived but I did go swimming in the Detroit River and in Lake Erie near the Fermi Nuclear Power Plant.

130 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:38:29pm

re: #104 albusteve

Now that’s a caper I’m willin’ to engage in!

131 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:38:46pm

Crikey, but I can’t wait for the Darwin movie. When is it due?

132 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:39:10pm

re: #128 Jimmah

The “before we understand them well enough” bit is crucial. In the case of vaccines it’s those who oppose it who lack the understanding.

You missed the sarc tag, I take it.

/btw, I missed any answer to my question from the last thread

133 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:39:37pm

re: #131 Cato the Elder

Crikey, but I can’t wait for the Darwin movie. When is it due?

Patience, these things are created.

134 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:39:40pm

re: #107 schnapp

I’m so pleats you said that!

135 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:40:10pm

re: #129 Idle Drifter

Well, there weren’t any barns were I lived but I did go swimming in the Detroit River and in Lake Erie near the Fermi Nuclear Power Plant.

Well then. You’d probably do as well as a cockroach in a post-nuclear-war sitch. Like Achilles being dipped in the river by Thetis.

136 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:40:50pm

re: #131 Cato the Elder

Crikey, but I can’t wait for the Darwin movie. When is it due?

Who created it?

137 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:41:00pm

re: #135 Cato the Elder

Well then. You’d probably do as well as a cockroach in a post-nuclear-war sitch. Like Achilles being dipped in the river by Thetis.

Plus, no need of a nightlight, which saves on carbon emissions.

138 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:42:13pm

re: #136 MandyManners

Who created it?

No one knows. They just found it like that on the beach.
/

139 jaunte  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:42:33pm

re: #131 Cato the Elder

Crikey, but I can’t wait for the Darwin movie. When is it due?

Looks like sometime in September.
ereligionnews.blogspot.com/2009/06/trailer-for-darwin-biopic-creation.html

140 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:42:58pm

re: #132 OldLineTexan

You missed the sarc tag, I take it.

Nah, I was just covering all bases in case someone else missed it.

/btw, I missed any answer to my question from the last thread

You mean that one was serious? Ok…I’ll answer it in a minute.

141 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:43:25pm

Can’t we just pull a “Gore” and say: “The debate on evolution is over, everyone knows Darwinism is a fact.” ?

142 Kronocide  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:43:46pm

Reading reviews of The Darwin Myth from my link above. This quote encapsulates a significant driving force behind the resistance of Darwin, and thereby evolution:
As most of the history books, textbooks and biographies about this great man are veiled beneath secular ideologies born largely out of the Enlightenment, Dr. Wiker has the integrity (and courage) to portray Darwin as he really was.

That reveals the fear that Darwin, and thereby evolution, is a secular plot to challenge theism. Of course, if that’s the case, Dr Wilker is likely biased by the alternate: Darwinism needs to be challenged by theism.

It was interesting listening to Wilkins, Shermer, and Medved. After the debate, Medved was again touting the virtues of theism, as if it needed support after discussing Darwin.

Where is the faith?

143 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:43:52pm

re: #131 Cato the Elder

Crikey, but I can’t wait for the Darwin movie. When is it due?

Sept 25 in the UK…

[Link: www.imdb.com…]

144 jaunte  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:44:02pm
145 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:44:47pm

re: #129 Idle Drifter

Well, there weren’t any barns were I lived but I did go swimming in the Detroit River and in Lake Erie near the Fermi Nuclear Power Plant.

Spent lots of time at the beach at Sterling State Park and the cove at the “hot hole” by the Nuke cooling towers back in the day. The hot hole was the place to be. The water was 5-10 degrees warmer there.

146 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:45:27pm

re: #137 OldLineTexan

Plus, no need of a nightlight, which saves on carbon emissions.

I just wish I had super powers.

147 Jack Burton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:45:43pm

re: #120 VioletTiger

But do they have one of these?

Yep, with a little plaque indicating what deck and section of Noah’s ark this creature and his wife were on. By the dinosaurs… no such plaques. They wouldn’t fit on the boat so they were done.

148 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:46:05pm

re: #140 Jimmah

You mean that one was serious? Ok…I’ll answer it in a minute.

Just trying to establish a basis of understanding for your remark before I am either (a) pleased with myself or (b) insulted.

I try to keep things as light as possible on the innernets … I value the interaction, ideas, and information too much, and realize that the mode of communication leaves out a lot of clues provided in normal conversation. Sometimes it is too easy to take a comment the wrong way.

149 wee fury  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:46:17pm

Fishing off a river bank with a 2 year old — glancing down and discovering one little hand in the pail of nightcrawlers, the other hand covered in dirt, moving away from filthy lips, and the little jaws moving as if chewing on something.
… as my Mom used to say, “A little dirt never hurt anyone.”

150 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:46:22pm

re: #127 albusteve

bravo!….had a barn cat for 23 years and she was never sick a day in her life….not quite the same thing, but still

There’s also the robust mongrel effect. Overbreed any creature, dog, horse, or man (the Hapsburgs and the British royal family are prime examples of the latter) and you get degeneration and inherited diseases like hip dysplasia in German Shepherds. In the case of Germans (of the Nazi variety), the brain is the first thing to go. Google “Nueva Germania” + Paraguay to see what I mean.

151 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:46:30pm

re: #141 Yankee Division Son

Can’t we just pull a “Gore” and say: “The debate on evolution is over, everyone knows Darwinism is a fact.” ?

Not without being downdinged.

/

152 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:47:20pm

re: #123 OldLineTexan

Sorry, it’s a requirment around my grandson the heart patient, laid down by the doctors.

Just use soap and water OLT, along with the anti-bacterials lotions.

153 Sambo  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:47:33pm

re: #129 Idle Drifter

If memory serves, wasn’t there an almost-failure at the Davis-Besse nuclear plant in Ohio? Something about a cover plate almost being corroded through? I’ll have to look it up.

154 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:47:42pm

re: #137 OldLineTexan

Plus, no need of a nightlight, which saves on carbon emissions.

I was thinking about this the other day. Once the incandescent ban goes into effect, what are kids gonna do for nightlights?

And, more importantly, what are the rest of us gonna do for appliance lights. I’m pretty sure you can’t use a florescent bulb in an oven or a microwave.

155 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:47:48pm

The Turtle Stack bypasses Hell, and keeps going down, down, down……

156 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:47:52pm

re: #152 reine.de.tout

Just use soap and water OLT, along with the anti-bacterials lotions.

Yes’m.

;)

157 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:48:24pm

re: #145 Mich-again

Spent lots of time at the beach at Sterling State Park and the cove at the “hot hole” by the Nuke cooling towers back in the day. The hot hole was the place to be. The water was 5-10 degrees warmer there.

Ever fish the deep shipping channels on Lake Erie between Fermi and Sputnik for walleye? They love the cold water between 20’ and 28’ in the summer.

158 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:48:46pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

Actually, I avoid as much as possible the antibacterial soaps, knowing that moderate exposure to bacteria is ultimately a good thing for our immune system. But I do wash my hands after any exposure to germs. I worked for years in the public health system. Now I work in retail. Money is filthy! But I rarely get sick anymore, b/c I have been exposed to most of the typical germs on money. A good friend had to write a paper on the third world and their immunological relationship to the developed world. I suggested he call it “The weak shall inherit the earth.” Learning to live with germs is a good thing!

159 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:50:48pm

re: #158 Irenicum

Actually, I avoid as much as possible the antibacterial soaps, knowing that moderate exposure to bacteria is ultimately a good thing for our immune system. But I do wash my hands after any exposure to germs. I worked for years in the public health system. Now I work in retail. Money is filthy! But I rarely get sick anymore, b/c I have been exposed to most of the typical germs on money. A good friend had to write a paper on the third world and their immunological relationship to the developed world. I suggested he call it “The weak shall inherit the earth.” Learning to live with germs is a good thing!

I did read something about that, and some studies showed, surprise surprise surprise, that people exposed to lots of things may just end up with a better-functioning immune system.

In the US, for a properly functioning immune system, I figure it’s just best to have a dog. Or a little brother.

160 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:51:02pm

re: #123 OldLineTexan

In some cases it totally makes sense.

161 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:51:27pm

re: #150 Cato the Elder

There’s also the robust mongrel effect. Overbreed any creature, dog, horse, or man (the Hapsburgs and the British royal family are prime examples of the latter) and you get degeneration and inherited diseases like hip dysplasia in German Shepherds. In the case of Germans (of the Nazi variety), the brain is the first thing to go. Google “Nueva Germania” + Paraguay to see what I mean.


I will…thanks…..hahaha!…poor Prince Charles

162 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:51:49pm

re: #155 jcm

The Turtle Stack bypasses Hell, and keeps going down, down, down……

With Mack at the bottom of it.

/Dr Seuss reference

163 freetoken  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:51:50pm

Put one link to the SensuousCurmudgeon in the spin-offs, but there was another good entry which links to an Oklahoma newspaper article from yesterday:

Darwin debate devolves into blame game

[…]

So a few weeks ago when I brought up something I heard about evolution, she told me something she heard from a radio preacher about evolution.

The preacher, according to my wife, said Carl Sagan said that dinosaurs died out because of constipation.

[…]

A few weeks ago a letter writer wrote in blaming Charles Darwin, whose 200th birthday is celebrated this year, for abortion. A week later, another letter writer said he couldn’t see the connection. Then this past week, Robert Bornfleth wrote in to defend the first writer.

[…]

Here is one of those letters to the editor:

THE PEOPLE SPEAK: Writer says Darwin’s theory undermines life

[…]

It must first be realized that to believe the theory of evolution, one needs to be “completely confused.”

[…]

Now, as for Darwin: His original title was “The Origins of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.” Not even in the book yet, and Darwin is already implying human races as species of animal.

That should answer Blackburn’s question about Darwin’s “legacy of bondage.” The “favoured” races can now exploit, or even exterminate the unfavoured – whoever they may be, e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Hamas, etc.

[…]

Your fellow Americans, hard at work…

164 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:52:10pm

re: #160 Irenicum

In some cases it totally makes sense.

I worry that he will have a weak immune system. Then again, for much of his life a decent infection might have killed him. Trade-off, like most things in life.

165 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:52:38pm

re: #129 Idle Drifter

So hows your third eye doin’?

166 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:52:59pm

re: #164 OldLineTexan

I worry that he will have a weak immune system. Then again, for much of his life a decent infection might have killed him. Trade-off, like most things in life.

He’s recovering, OLT, or is this chronic?
Just tell me nunya bidness if it’s none of my business.

167 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:53:23pm

re: #161 albusteve

I will…thanks…..hahaha!…poor Prince Charles

Actually the really bad one is Prince Philip. I believe he was the one who publicly enthused about the beneficial effects a really good pandemic would have on the world.

And to think we bought a used empire from these people.

168 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:53:24pm

re: #157 Idle Drifter

Ever fish the deep shipping channels on Lake Erie between Fermi and Sputnik for walleye? They love the cold water between 20’ and 28’ in the summer.

Actually not much into fishing, just occasionally. But I do know some guys from Monroe County and they rave about how they can go in the boat out for an hour or two and come back with the limit just about every time. The zebra mussels cleaned up the lake so much that the Walleye can actually see food now so there are more of them and they get bigger.

169 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:53:36pm

re: #163 freetoken

Put one link to the SensuousCurmudgeon in the spin-offs, but there was another good entry which links to an Oklahoma newspaper article from yesterday:

Darwin debate devolves into blame game

Your fellow Americans, hard at work…

Help!

170 albusteve  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:53:49pm

re: #157 Idle Drifter

Ever fish the deep shipping channels on Lake Erie between Fermi and Sputnik for walleye? They love the cold water between 20’ and 28’ in the summer.

walleye!….Erie is full of them…quite possibly the best tasting fresh water fish anywhere

171 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:54:04pm

In unrelated news today, SOS holed out a 167 yard par 3 today with an 8-iron.
And the crowd roared.

/well, Daddy SOS gave me a high-five, maybe it sounded louder.

172 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:54:53pm

re: #166 reine.de.tout

He’s recovering, OLT, or is this chronic?
Just tell me nunya bidness if it’s none of my business.

He’s doing very well, and thank you for asking.

He is very developmentally delayed, but a delight.

I got to have lunch with him on Friday; now that RSV risks are down, he is allowed in public more.

173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:54:55pm

re: #150 Cato the Elder


There’s also the robust mongrel effect. Overbreed any creature, dog, horse, or man (the Hapsburgs and the British royal family are prime examples of the latter)…

I once knew an American born gal that was quite fond of telling people she was related to British royalty. I would always reply “It shows”. Heh, poor girl always took it as a compliment.

No offense intended toward you Brit Lizards, of course.

174 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:55:12pm

re: #165 Irenicum

So hows your third eye doin’?

It has detached from my forehead and disappeared. Speaking of disappear many of the neighborhood strays and some pets have been coming up missing. Weird.

175 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:55:23pm

re: #158 Irenicum

Actually, I avoid as much as possible the antibacterial soaps, knowing that moderate exposure to bacteria is ultimately a good thing for our immune system. But I do wash my hands after any exposure to germs. I worked for years in the public health system. Now I work in retail. Money is filthy! But I rarely get sick anymore, b/c I have been exposed to most of the typical germs on money. A good friend had to write a paper on the third world and their immunological relationship to the developed world. I suggested he call it “The weak shall inherit the earth.” Learning to live with germs is a good thing!

I am positive that I have not been exposed to all the germs on paper money, especially the germs that inhabit 50 and 100 dollar bills.

So, for health purposes only, could you send me some?

:)

176 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:55:24pm

re: #171 SasquatchOnSteroids

In unrelated news today, SOS holed out a 167 yard par 3 today with an 8-iron.
And the crowd roared.

/well, Daddy SOS gave me a high-five, maybe it sounded louder.

Nice. A hole in one on Father’s Day with Dad there. Perfect.

177 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:55:24pm

re: #154 Slumbering Behemoth

I was thinking about this the other day. Once the incandescent ban goes into effect, what are kids gonna do for nightlights?

And, more importantly, what are the rest of us gonna do for appliance lights. I’m pretty sure you can’t use a florescent bulb in an oven or a microwave.

leds.

not sure about the oven, have to do that by reflection or light guide or something.

178 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:56:18pm

re: #176 Mich-again

Nice. A hole in one on Father’s Day with Dad there. Perfect.

And then some. thx.

179 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:56:39pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

I am positive that I have not been exposed to all the germs on paper money, especially the germs that inhabit 50 and 100 dollar bills.

So, for health purposes only, could you send me some?

:)

Walter - when you’re funny, you’re really funny!

180 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:56:46pm

re: #174 Idle Drifter

It has detached from my forehead and disappeared. Speaking of disappear many of the neighborhood strays and some pets have been coming up missing. Weird.

Coyotes?
Hawks?
Aliens?

/

181 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:57:03pm

re: #174 Idle Drifter

It has detached from my forehead and disappeared. Speaking of disappear many of the neighborhood strays and some pets have been coming up missing. Weird.

You near any coyotes or mountain lions? Or kids with anti-social conduct disorder symptoms?

182 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:57:57pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

Thanks for taking this risk for the rest of us, Walter.

/stuffing dirty, filthy lucre into large envelope and wetting stamp with a sponge

183 pink freud  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:58:56pm

*Reminder:

Never open mail from OldLineTexan.

184 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:59:17pm

re: #181 Gus 802

You near any coyotes or mountain lions? Or kids with anti-social conduct disorder symptoms?

Speaking of mountain lions: A Facebook friend wrote today that he was mauled by a California cougar last night.

Another friend instantly wrote back: “Was she hot at least?”

He was not amused.

185 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 7:59:19pm

re: #182 OldLineTexan

Thanks for taking this risk for the rest of us, Walter.

/stuffing dirty, filthy lucre into large envelope and wetting stamp with a sponge

It’s either that, or hazard the ham surprise at the mission.

186 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:00:15pm

re: #149 wee fury

Hey, where’d ya think we got the term grub from?

187 itellu3times  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:00:41pm

belmont club quotes the guardian as saying tehran is quiet and maybe that’s all she wrote

188 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:00:44pm

re: #174 Idle Drifter

It has detached from my forehead and disappeared. Speaking of disappear many of the neighborhood strays and some pets have been coming up missing. Weird.

While back in West Seattle the media was all abuzz for a week about a series of pet mutilations.

Until a wildlife biologist looked at a couple of carcasses.

Coyotes.

189 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:00:45pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Don’t worry, I’m making light too. I did think your question on the other thread was rhetorical though.

190 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:01:10pm

re: #150 Cato the Elder

Thank God!

191 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:01:12pm

re: #184 Cato the Elder

Speaking of mountain lions: A Facebook friend wrote today that he was mauled by a California cougar last night.

Another friend instantly wrote back: “Was she hot at least?”

He was not amused.

Ouch. Yeah, when I first moved to Colorado I was a little concerned about encountering a mountain lion. I think you’re suppose to take a large stance by extending your arms up in the air. They will easily gobble up pets from time to time.

192 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:01:17pm

OT - Guardian Council rejects claims of voter irregularity, state-run media says

“Iran’s election authority has rejected claims of voting irregularities by a defeated presidential candidate, while acknowledging that the number of ballots cast in dozens cities exceeded the number of eligible voters in those areas, state-run TV reported Monday”

Nothing to see here, move along…

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

193 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:01:34pm

Supposed that is.

194 wee fury  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:01:54pm

re: #186 Irenicum

:-)

195 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:02:26pm

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

It’s either that, or hazard the ham surprise at the mission.

It’s only surprising if there’s ham in it.

196 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:02:36pm

re: #168 Mich-again

Actually not much into fishing, just occasionally. But I do know some guys from Monroe County and they rave about how they can go in the boat out for an hour or two and come back with the limit just about every time. The zebra mussels cleaned up the lake so much that the Walleye can actually see food now so there are more of them and they get bigger.

The Zebra muscles have done a lot of damage to the environment and infrastructure of the Great Lakes system as well as clean the water. One year dad, my little bro’ and I went out fishing on Lake Erie. We thought the day was ruined by being swarmed by hatching insects till we got several miles off shore. Fishing was dead until Radar Love came on over the radio and we could not keep a line wet because we started catching fish left and right.

197 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:02:39pm

Well, good night all. The Kindle calls.

198 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:02:41pm

re: #191 Gus 802

Ouch. Yeah, when I first moved to Colorado I was a little concerned about encountering a mountain lion. I think you’re suppose to take a large stance by extending your arms up in the air. They will easily gobble up pets from time to time.

No, you extend your arms up in the air and start waving them franticly in hopes of attracting the attention of a park ranger with a very large rifle.

199 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:02:58pm

re: #192 Walter L. Newton

OT - Guardian Council rejects claims of voter irregularity, state-run media says

“Iran’s election authority has rejected claims of voting irregularities by a defeated presidential candidate, while acknowledging that the number of ballots cast in dozens cities exceeded the number of eligible voters in those areas, state-run TV reported Monday”

Nothing to see here, move along…

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

There, it’s settled. The Guardian Council has spoken.

//

200 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:03:48pm

re: #189 Jimmah

Don’t worry, I’m making light too. I did think your question on the other thread was rhetorical though.

Nope. Swing and a miss.

But thanks, anyway.

I’m an engineer. When people on both sides are screwing with the data, and the data has some issues of its own, I take a step way back.

201 Gus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:04:11pm

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

No, you extend your arms up in the air and start waving them franticly in hopes of attracting the attention of a park ranger with a very large rifle.

lol Good one.

202 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:04:20pm

re: #197 Cato the Elder

Well, good night all. The Kindle calls.

“shitbird” or “sick fuck”?

/get it?
/calls?

/sorry

203 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:04:36pm

re: #161 albusteve

Yay to be a mutt!

204 songbird  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:04:52pm

re: #200 OldLineTexan

The kid on your avatar is really cute!

205 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:04:57pm

re: #201 Gus 802

lol Good one.

The natural catnip underwear, in retrospect, was a very bad idea.

/next time, buy hemp

206 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:05:35pm

re: #204 songbird

The kid on your avatar is really cute!

Thank you. That is my son, Mitchell the boy human, with one of our dogs, Flapjack the toy poodle.

207 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:05:59pm

re: #188 jcm

While back in West Seattle the media was all abuzz for a week about a series of pet mutilations.

Until a wildlife biologist looked at a couple of carcasses.

Coyotes.

Uh, guys I made that last part up about the pets and strays going missing. It was part of the story of having a third eye from swimming in the Detroit River and it eventually detaching from my head and disappearing. Hint, hint, wink, wink.

The Evil Eye!

208 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:06:01pm

re: #206 OldLineTexan

Thank you. That is my son, Mitchell the boy human, with one of our dogs, Flapjack the toy poodle.

He looks just like you!

209 freedombilly  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:06:14pm

I would say that Mr. Klinghoffer is delusional with, um, some very negative scientific consequences.

210 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:06:30pm

re: #163 freetoken

Ugh. nuff said.

211 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:08:50pm

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

He looks just like you!

If I shave, the resemblance to that poodle is lessened somewhat.

212 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:08:55pm

re: #207 Idle Drifter

Uh, guys I made that last part up about the pets and strays going missing. It was part of the story of having a third eye from swimming in the Detroit River and it eventually detaching from my head and disappearing. Hint, hint, wink, wink.

The Evil Eye!

Missed the first part…..

213 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:09:59pm

I just watched Defiance. What an awesome movie.

214 Rin  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:10:22pm

I liked it.

215 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:11:39pm

re: #213 Alouette

I just watched Defiance. What an awesome movie.

Added to my Netflix queue.

216 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:13:01pm

re: #212 jcm

Missed the first part…..

No problem it’s farther up thread starting with Cato the Elder posting about growing up in and around a barn. I posted about not being near a barn but swimming in the Detroit River and in Lake Erie near Fermi Nuclear Power Plant when I was a kid. It actually spiraled down from there.

217 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:13:18pm

re: #164 OldLineTexan

I was born with a cleft lip and a heart murmur. Got sick all the time. I was the quintessential penicillin baby. As I matured, my own resistance started to develop. As an adult I realized that I needed to let my own immune system do the work it could. I take medicine when I know I need it. But if vitamin C and other stuff can help I’ll stick with that. Over medicating can be just as dangerous as under medicating. But medicine is a gift nonetheless.

218 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:14:16pm

re: #216 Idle Drifter

No problem it’s farther up thread starting with Cato the Elder posting about growing up in and around a barn. I posted about not being near a barn but swimming in the Detroit River and in Lake Erie near Fermi Nuclear Power Plant when I was a kid. It actually spiraled down from there.

LOL!

I see, see, see….

219 songbird  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:14:38pm

re: #206 OldLineTexan

Thank you. That is my son, Mitchell the boy human, with one of our dogs, Flapjack the toy poodle.

Awesome!

220 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:15:16pm

re: #218 jcm

LOL!

I see, see, see….

Thanks for the pic.

221 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:19:01pm

re: #213 Alouette

I just watched Defiance. What an awesome movie.

I’ll order it when I get the chance.

222 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:19:10pm

re: #215 jcm

Added to my Netflix queue.

Just one complaint about this and other recent movies I’ve seen, like “Benjamin Button.” The sets all look so fake! The only movie sets that look “real” are the comic book (excuse me, graphic novel) adaptations that are made with CGI.

223 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:20:44pm

Whenever I hear the term “third eye”, I always think of this film.

Horror/Gore Warning.

224 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:21:00pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

Yeah, if you send me your bank account number to my rich uncle in Nigeria.

225 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:21:40pm

re: #209 freedombilly

I would say that Mr. Klinghoffer is delusional with, um, some very negative scientific consequences.

My husband and I were at Brown when Klinghoffer was there. His writings for the school paper always stirred things up. I’ll see if I’ve got any old newspapers in my “college stuff” boxes and if they contain his articles.

226 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:21:43pm

Cato the Elderre: #94 Cato the Elder

Hey, I found this Muppet Labs video about germ enlarger.

227 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:23:32pm

re: #184 Cato the Elder

Really LOL!

228 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:28:04pm

re: #223 Slumbering Behemoth

Brain sucked out through the eye socket and on top of that kneed in the crotched. Talk about a bad day.

229 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:28:04pm

re: #196 Idle Drifter

Fishing was dead until Radar Love came on over the radio and we could not keep a line wet because we started catching fish left and right.

Other than the part about “Radar Love”, I’ve heard that kind of story lots of times about Walleye fishing in Erie.

230 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:28:07pm

goodnight you princes of new new york

231 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:29:56pm

re: #221 Dark_Falcon

I’ll order it when I get the chance.

One more thing that bothered me about this movie. Why do the characters speak English with Yiddish accents? They speak Russian when they’re with Russians, so when they’re with each other they should be speaking Yiddish! If they’re going to be speaking English, just speak plain English with Brit or American accents but for freaking sake drop the stupid Yiddish accents!

I would have enjoyed this movie much more in Yiddish, FWIW.

232 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:32:54pm

re: #213 Alouette

Watched that the other night. Amazing. It’s great to see Nazis killed! At the end of the war 1200 survived from that area!

233 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:33:13pm

Good night all.

234 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:33:39pm

Well, at least the Disco folk are more than happy to shoot themselves in the foot with the other shoved directly into a mouth. The beauty of it all is that they have no idea how absurd they actually sound.

235 Throbert McGee  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:33:45pm

re: #98 the_thermonuclear_pickle

I’m ashamed to be of the same ethnicity as this Klinghoffer bloke.

Really, really ashamed.

Sheesh, is there nothing that You People won’t feel needlessly guilty about?

/

236 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:35:02pm

re: #98 the_thermonuclear_pickle

I’m ashamed to be of the same ethnicity as this Klinghoffer bloke.

Really, really ashamed.

:(

No need to be ashamed. His ethnicity is assholian.

237 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:35:25pm

re: #141 Yankee Division Son

Can’t we just pull a “Gore” and say: “The debate on evolution is over, everyone knows Darwinism is a fact.” ?

Now where would be the fun in that?

238 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:36:22pm

OK Lizardim - Off The Subject -

Been listening to John Batchelor on WABC AM 770. The Children of Rafsanjani have been arested and released by the “Iranian” Regime. Thiss is the equivalent of arresting children of Bill Gates or Warren Buffet.
Were I Rafsanjani - I would DO the following -
1. Get Myself and Money OUT OF “IRAN.”
2. From “Wherever” fund and ARM the opposition.
3. Make SURE that the present Regime Falls - and Leaders have their Necks Stretched BY CRANE - As “In Your Face” as is Possible.
Mr. Rafsanjani - Do IT quietly - AND - understand even YOU Can NOT Trust this regime anymore.
That is all.

-S-

239 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:36:47pm

re: #237 eclectic infidel

Ya got me there…

240 Altermite  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:38:13pm

re: #238 Dr. Shalit

OK Lizardim - Off The Subject -

Been listening to John Batchelor on WABC AM 770. The Children of Rafsanjani have been arested and released by the “Iranian” Regime. Thiss is the equivalent of arresting children of Bill Gates or Warren Buffet.
Were I Rafsanjani - I would DO the following -
1. Get Myself and Money OUT OF “IRAN.”
2. From “Wherever” fund and ARM the opposition.
3. Make SURE that the present Regime Falls - and Leaders have their Necks Stretched BY CRANE - As “In Your Face” as is Possible.
Mr. Rafsanjani - Do IT quietly - AND - understand even YOU Can NOT Trust this regime anymore.
That is all.

-S-

You would arm the opposition after your kids were seized? You don’t see why that possibly might seem like a terrible idea for Rafsanjani?

242 freetoken  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:39:39pm

re: #241 Ojoe

beautiful image. caught it at just the right time of day.

243 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:39:59pm

re: #240 Altermite

You would arm the opposition after your kids were seized? You don’t see why that possibly might seem like a terrible idea for Rafsanjani?

Altermite -

Revise and extend - DO SO - after you have them back and vacationing in Dubai. Thought that was sorta kinda understood.

-S-

244 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:40:24pm
245 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:41:19pm

G’nite y’all. As the only full timer at home, work beckons mere hours away.

246 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:41:44pm

re: #241 Ojoe

The gloaming of the longest day of A.D. 2009, San Gabriel Mountains of California. Towercam! Courtesy of the Astronomers of UCLA.

Good night all.

It’s the first day of summer! Are we supposed to sacrifice some virgins?

247 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:42:04pm

re: #238 Dr. Shalit

This is the equivalent of arresting children of Bill Gates or Warren Buffet.

Maybe even bigger than that. Rafsanjani is the Chairman of Assembly of Experts, 86 Mullahs who select the Supreme Leader. They could get together and decide to dump Khameini. I kind of doubt that will happen though.

248 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:42:09pm

re: #245 Irenicum

G’nite y’all. As the only full timer at home, work beckons mere hours away.

I hear ya”!

249 Irenicum  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:42:29pm

re: #217 Irenicum

BTW, thank you all!

250 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:43:06pm

I’m going to sign off as well. I don’t have anything else to say tonight.

251 Ojoe  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:43:07pm

re: #241 Ojoe

Also, I think, the gloaming of the first day of summer, 5679.

252 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:43:16pm

re: #246 MandyManners

What is the meaning of this word you use, “ver-gen”? I’ve not heard of such a thing.

253 freetoken  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:43:25pm

re: #246 MandyManners

Are we supposed to sacrifice some virgins?

I’ll try to remember to put a video in the LNDT…

254 Throbert McGee  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:43:47pm

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Yeah, when I first moved to Colorado I was a little concerned about encountering a mountain lion


you extend your arms up in the air and start waving them frantically

Well, naturally — what sensible mountain lion would want to eat a rave kid? All that X and Tina dehydrates ‘em; it’d be like chewing on stale jerky.

255 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:44:40pm

re: #245 Irenicum

G’nite y’all. As the only full timer at home, work beckons mere hours away.

Irenicm -

Bless you, whether Male of Female - Somebody HAS to make a Living. In my sorta kinda family both of us do that. My advantage is that I do not have to commute. Rolling out of bed, and taking the elevator has its advantages.

-S-

256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:46:27pm

If you haven’t seen razorbackers post from earlier, it’s in the top ten. The perfect Father’s Day post.

Just found out my bosses father died today.

Now, that has to suck.

257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:48:00pm

re: #256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

boss’s.

crap. I’m sad for the guy. I need to tell my Dad, I’d prefer Super Bowl Sunday.

Goodnight guys.

258 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:48:01pm

re: #37 OldLineTexan

You have HOPE that he’s CHANGEd?

/it is the Age of Obama
/the moon is in the seventh house

Interestingly, John McCain’s seventh house…Coincidence?
/

259 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:48:26pm

Truly nasty sunset:

Image: IMG_4005.JPG

It’s like a haemorraging liver.

260 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:48:59pm

re: #246 MandyManners

It’s the first day of summer! Are we supposed to sacrifice some virgins?

What a waste, I vote we find some old crones………

/;-P

261 Basho  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:49:23pm

re: #259 Jimmah

Bad link :(

262 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:49:45pm

re: #247 Mich-again

Maybe even bigger than that. Rafsanjani is the Chairman of Assembly of Experts, 86 Mullahs who select the Supreme Leader. They could get together and decide to dump Khameini. I kind of doubt that will happen though.

Mich-again -

I KNOW that - You KNOW that. Does Pres. Obama or Sec. State Clinton KNOW that? I wonder, I won, won, won, won, WONDER - WHY - why, why, why, why, THEY SEEM AWAY….”

-S-

263 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:51:01pm

Kudos to CNN: 11:15 PM ET —

CNN: “Her name was Neda.” I’m late getting to this but CNN really should be commended for producing the report below. Even tonight, as we near midnight on a Sunday, CNN’s Don Lemon is still anchoring live news and commentary on Iran. Very impressive.
264 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:51:40pm

Namaste, Y’all

265 legalpad  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:53:43pm

re: #246 MandyManners

It’s the first day of summer! Are we supposed to sacrifice some virgins?

Well, it’s Father’s Day too. One’s sexual history need not be relevant.

266 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:55:14pm

re: #261 Basho

Bad link :(

Strange - it works when I click it.

267 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:55:36pm

re: #121 Cato the Elder


Best thing of all is to be raised in a barn.

I’m in better shape than I thought, then. My mom insists I was raised in a barn.

268 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:56:57pm

re: #267 ShanghaiEd

I’m in better shape than I thought, then. My mom insists I was raised in a barn.

We have the same mom?

Hiya bro!

269 legalpad  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:57:17pm

re: #266 Jimmah

Strange - it works when I click it.

Works in Explorer, not in Firefox

270 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:58:16pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

Kudos to CNN: 11:15 PM ET —

Killgore Trout -

Neda WAS a beautiful Young Woman - Born in the wrong Nation/Zeitgeist. Even the Afghans see it better historically. The Afghans say that EVERY BIRD requires TWO wings to fly. The Mullahs of the so-called “Iran” do NOT see it that way - at least at present. They will be on the losing side of history, and, if not careful, in its dustbin, figuratively if not literally.

-S-

271 schnapp  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:58:20pm

re: #267 ShanghaiEd

Jesus was himself born in a manger :)

272 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 8:58:33pm

re: #269 legalpad

Works in Explorer, not in Firefox

That’s weird too - I’m using firefox here.

273 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:00:17pm

re: #269 legalpad

legalpad -

Happens once in awhile in FF. Get the IE Tab add-on. That is all.

-S_

274 legalpad  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:00:17pm

re: #272 Jimmah

That’s weird too - I’m using firefox here.

Ok - I made it work in Firefox too, but in a separate window. Hmm.

275 Karridine  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:00:18pm

Just so’s y’all know, while working my way DOWN this thread I found a term new to me, so I Googled “flounce bait” and got ZERO results…

It ain’t out there, because Google doesn’t find it…

/how’s THEM logics?

276 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:00:21pm

re: #271 schnapp

Jesus was himself born in a manger :)

He was homeless!

/Al Gore.

*never mind the taxation part of the deal*

277 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:00:35pm

re: #267 ShanghaiEd

I’m in better shape than I thought, then. My mom insists I was raised in a barn.

Heh. When I was little my mom would always ask “Where you born in a barn”?

Since I always took things literally at that age, her question would leave me wondering if she was in fact my real birth mother. I mean, out of anyone in the whole world, shouldn’t she be the one who knows just where I was born?

278 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:02:10pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

Has Lee Bollinger commented yet on Neda? Maybe he’ll invite Ahmadinejad back to Columbia to explain it all.

279 legalpad  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:02:48pm

got to rush off

280 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:02:58pm

re: #277 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh. When I was little my mom would always ask “Where you born in a barn”?

Since I always took things literally at that age, her question would leave me wondering if she was in fact my real birth mother. I mean, out of anyone in the whole world, shouldn’t she be the one who knows just where I was born?

My birth certificate says the 23rd, my Mom insists it is the 22nd after all she was there.

We think since it was a very small rural hospital and I was born on a Sunday that the certificate was filled out on a Monday and the clerk used Monday’s date.

281 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:03:28pm

re: #276 jcm

He was homeless!

/Al Gore.

*never mind the taxation part of the deal*

jcm -

Jesus was born in a Manger, and I have eaten out of Garbage Cans and Slept in Cargo Vans. Life is NOT always Fair. - JFK, 1962

-S-

282 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:04:18pm

I’m late and this is back to the thread topic, but what the hell (so to speak):

re: #30 Jimmah

Notice the usual attempt to trick people into thinking they are in the ID camp just by virtue of believing in God and accepting evolution:

Richard
June 18, 2009 11:01 PM

Actually I would have said, “No I think that creationism is for those who don’t like reality.” Anyone who thinks that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs walked alongside people need to have their heads examined. I am a Christian but I believe that we evolved. (God was behind the process of course.) And just because I am a Christian does not mean I have to park my brain at the church door.


David Klinghoffer
June 18, 2009 11:43 PM

Then welcome to the intelligent-design community, Richard!

This reflects a trend I see again and again from creationists. They’re not just disputing our best science. They are also framing the debate in such a way as to imply you can’t believe in both god and evolution. Of course that’s complete nonsense. Cf. the Catholic Church, for example, as has been repeatedly noted here.

What we see above isn’t just a lie about what ID is; it’s also an insult to both the religious and nonreligious. It’s the claim that only godless heathens can believe in evolution, because if you believe in god you have to believe in ID.

This is yet another demonstration of the way that “intelligent design” is merely a cover for what are actually religious beliefs. It’s not science and in this guise it’s not even philosophy. (You’d be bounced out of Logic 101 or Philosophy 101 for making these claims.)

It’s theology, nothing more or less.

283 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:07:17pm

re: #281 Dr. Shalit

jcm -

Jesus was born in a Manger, and I have eaten out of Garbage Cans and Slept in Cargo Vans. Life is NOT always Fair. - JFK, 1962

-S-

Already teaching the kiddos that, life isn’t fair, nobody owns you anything, you are responsible for what you do and everything has consequences.

I’ve been working for 35 years, since I was in high school. Always found work, even if it was washing dishes or manual labor.

284 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:08:49pm

Well, I’m gonna go get a beer and tackle some work in the garage.

Later Lizards.

285 schnapp  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:09:26pm

re: #283 jcm

He who does not work does not eat. - St. Paul.

286 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:09:53pm

re: #282 iceweasel

This reflects a trend I see again and again from creationists. They’re not just disputing our best science. They are also framing the debate in such a way as to imply you can’t believe in both god and evolution.

Definitely. That is a big part of the strategy and probably the one that nets the most fish. They equate evolution with atheism.

287 jcm  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:12:57pm

re: #285 schnapp

He who does not work does not eat. - St. Paul.

Hunger can be a great motivator.

288 srb1976  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:15:19pm

Evening folks! Hope everyone is well and all our resident dads had a great day….

289 yochanan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:15:57pm

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

an interesting read.
hamas, hezballah, islamic jihad could end up being the big losers in this one.

290 Racer X  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:16:07pm

Have you noticed since everyone has a camcorder these days, no one talks about seeing UFOs like they used to?

291 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:16:27pm

re: #282 iceweasel

Totally agreed, iceweasel.

They want people watching the news to see hostility to ID not as what it is- the defence of science education and the constitution - but as hostility to God and all religion, and react accordingly.

292 yochanan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:17:12pm

re: #290 Racer X

esp the hi def ones were you can read the word frizebe on it.

293 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:17:39pm

re: #260 jcm

What a waste, I vote we find some old crones………

/;-P

When’s the next “Boobs Not Bombs” meeting…
Or there’s always the Code Pinkos.

294 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:17:53pm

Darwin’s ‘evolution’ moth changes back from black to white thanks to soot-free skies: [Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

295 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:18:45pm
‘Darwinism is a Lie Sprung Straight from the Pit of Hell’

The pits of hell.

296 yochanan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:18:49pm

were did the human shield crowd go now that we can use them in Iran?

297 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:19:00pm

re: #291 Jimmah

Totally agreed, iceweasel.

They want people watching the news to see hostility to ID not as what it is- the defence of science education and the constitution - but as hostility to God and all religion, and react accordingly.

What I like is how the ID crowd must have a special pipeline to God in that they know what is hostile to Him and what is not.

298 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:21:34pm

re: #282 iceweasel

Since creationism comes from the reactionary wing of Protestantism, I would imagine you would find all a lot of anti-Catholic bigotry among the same.

299 yochanan  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:21:35pm

hopefully the iranian short shit will get the ‘el duchi’ treatment, then the zero will have difficulties shaking his bloody hands.

300 Jimmah  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:22:29pm

re: #297 livefreeor die

What I like is how the ID crowd must have a special pipeline to God in that they know what is hostile to Him and what is not.

Anything that suggests a fundamental connection between man and God’s filthy, monkey-strewn animal kingdom, apparently.

301 srb1976  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:22:51pm

re: #297 livefreeor die

What I like is how the ID crowd must have a special pipeline to God in that they know what is hostile to Him and what is not.

I would think that if one were deeply religious it would be more than a little pretentious to think that ANYTHING we humans did could be hostile to god……but then, I’m not deeply religious, so maybe I just don’t get it

302 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:25:03pm

re: #291 Jimmah

Totally agreed, iceweasel.

They want people watching the news to see hostility to ID not as what it is- the defence of science education and the constitution - but as hostility to God and all religion, and react accordingly.

Of course. Because that would be how to motivate the crazies. Convince them that God himself is under attack and all religions too. It’s no wonder that fanatics are yanking their kids out of school and agitating to have the ten commandments hung on the walls of classrooms. And running for school boards, where they can replace the textbooks.

The best way to mobilise a committed and fanatical following behind your agenda— a following that will ignore all facts and evidence that undermines the agends no matter what — is to tie your agenda to religion.

It’s been done in the abortion debate; it’s been done on gay marriage and gay rights more generally; it’s done by right wing extremists like the Christian Identity Movement; and it’s done by religious fanatics worldwide in all religions.

(note what I am not saying: I am not saying that all anti-abortion positions are religious ones, nor that religion is a bad thing, nor that opposition to gay marriage is always religious. I am saying that tying one’s agenda to religion, and making out that there’s an existential threat against religion or God himself, is a sure way to get people behind your agenda who won’t question it or look at the other side’s position at all.)

Demonise the opposition. And not metaphorically.

303 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:26:15pm

re: #267 ShanghaiEd

I’m in better shape than I thought, then. My mom insists I was raised in a barn.

re: #268 jcm

We have the same mom?

Hiya bro!

Both of you! Go to bed now! If I have to come up there….

304 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:26:42pm

re: #299 yochanan

hopefully the iranian short shit will get the ‘el duchi’ treatment, then the zero will have difficulties shaking his bloody hands.

Bet Obama will find a way to make it into an ad in favor of universal health care.
/

305 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:26:44pm

Tiny-rannosaurus Rex: Why dinosaurs may not have been as big as Hollywood films suggest: [Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…] Check the links at this page, lotsa cool info!

306 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:27:15pm

re: #283 jcm

Already teaching the kiddos that, life isn’t fair, nobody owns you anything, you are responsible for what you do and everything has consequences.

I’ve been working for 35 years, since I was in high school. Always found work, even if it was washing dishes or manual labor.

More or Less -

Me Too. AND - when your “partner” - who is the signatory leaseholder - goes back to smoking crack - POOP HAPPENS, even if you are paying YOUR share of the rent.

-S-

307 Racer X  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:27:54pm

What happens when penguins die?

Did you ever wonder why there are no dead penguins on the ice in Antarctica - where do they go?

Wonder no more.

It is a known fact that the penguin is a very ritualistic bird which lives an extremely ordered and complex life. The penguin is very committed to its family and will mate for life, as well as maintaining a form of compassionate contact with its offspring throughout its life.

If a penguin is found dead on the ice surface, other members of the family and social circle have been known to dig holes in the ice, using their vestigial wings and beaks, until the hole is deep enough for the dead bird to be rolled into and buried. The male penguins then gather in a circle around the fresh grave and sing: ‘Freeze A Jolly Good Fellow.’

308 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:28:10pm

Evening all! Just wanted to run something by all the lizards, kinda get some feedback.

The bride and I saw Gran Torino last night. It’s really a terrific movie.

It wasn’t until about 4 am that I came to the realization that this may be the third film in a trilogy.

First, there was Flags of Our Fathers. Eastwood followed that up with Letters
From Iwo Jima. It was basically two films telling a story from both sides.

Okay, that was clear enough. But it wasn’t until we saw Gran Torino that it dawned on me that it could well be viewed (yeah, I know it was about a Korean War vet and the Hmongs from Vietnam) as the closure to the first two films.

Think about it as thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. The first film (Flags) was told from the American perspective. The second (Letters) from the Japanese (i.e. Asian) perspective.

But Gran Torino brings together the two enemies, and finally provides closure (not only for Walt, but for the Hmong - read Asian) for both groups.

Fine, maybe I’m reaching, but I love the idea that all three films fit together as two former adversarial groups finally let the past go.

309 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:28:13pm

re: #298 MrPaulRevere

Since creationism comes from the reactionary wing of Protestantism, I would imagine you would find all a lot of anti-Catholic bigotry among the same.

Most definitely. Historically that has also always been so.

“Catholicism is the pornography of the Puritans” — Richard Hofstader, the Paranoid Style in American Politics, 1964

When those reactionary rightwing Protestants call the Church the Whore of Babylon, they savour that phrase.

310 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:29:55pm

re: #307 Racer X

‘Freeze A Jolly Good Fellow.’

That was a long way to go for that. But I have to admit, you had me hook, line, and sinker.

311 livefreeor die  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:30:17pm

re: #308 subsailor68

Cool idea. I’ll try to see the three films in order.
Thanks for the suggestion!

312 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:31:09pm

re: #302 iceweasel

The best way to mobilise a committed and fanatical following behind your agenda— a following that will ignore all facts and evidence that undermines the agends no matter what — is to tie your agenda to religion.

It’s been done in the abortion debate; it’s been done on gay marriage and gay rights more generally; it’s done by right wing extremists like the Christian Identity Movement; and it’s done by religious fanatics worldwide in all religions.

I would also add Global Warming to that list of agendas they’ve tried to tie to religion. For some reason it seems to have worked far less well than with abortion and gays. Why do you think that is?

313 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:32:35pm

re: #311 livefreeor die

Cool idea. I’ll try to see the three films in order.
Thanks for the suggestion!

Hi livefree! That would be terrific, and I’d love to see what you think afterward. I could be wrong, but I’ll wait for your take on it!

;-)

314 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:33:36pm

re: #307 Racer X

Racer X -

“Freeze A Jolly Good Fellow” - Might you have been thinking of US Rep. Jefferson (D) Louisiana - a/k/a “Cold Cash?”

-S-

315 freetoken  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:34:14pm

re: #312 ShanghaiEd

Perhaps this proposition: any religious group with a well defined cultus will feel threatened by any proposed change in the environment in which it finds itself, and therefore in order to rally the troops will demonize the change (and the people associated with it.)

No?

316 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:34:49pm

re: #308 subsailor68

Excellent analysis. I could see Clint having that exact Master Plan. It makes sense.

sidenote, my Brother in law’s cousin was the organ player at the Church at the funeral. Some people from the film crew visited his Church in the area the film was made at Sunday morning Mass and waited till after Mass to offer him the gig. The waiting was the worst part he said. Had to hang around all day for a few minutes of filming.

317 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:35:27pm

re: #312 ShanghaiEd

ShanghaiEd -

YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING. That is all.

-S-

318 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:36:32pm

re: #316 Mich-again

Excellent analysis. I could see Clint having that exact Master Plan. It makes sense.

sidenote, my Brother in law’s cousin was the organ player at the Church at the funeral. Some people from the film crew visited his Church in the area the film was made at Sunday morning Mass and waited till after Mass to offer him the gig. The waiting was the worst part he said. Had to hang around all day for a few minutes of filming.

That’s very, very cool! Oh yeah, waiting is always the worst part, but it would be really interesting to hear what BIL’s cousin had to say about the experience!

319 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:37:36pm

re: #312 ShanghaiEd

For some reason it seems to have worked far less well than with abortion and gays. Why do you think that is?

My guess.. Because God revealed himself to Moses as a CO2 belching fire? (The burning bush)

320 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:38:38pm

re: #308 subsailor68

That’s an interesting analysis. I’m a long time Eastwood fan and I’m so glad to see him attain the level of success he has. I’m of the age where I can remember the Hollywood establishment poo-pooing him as a gun toting dimwit.

321 jorline  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:39:03pm

Good evening all.

I just finished watching Gran Torino with my wife…great movie!

322 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:39:57pm

re: #319 Mich-again

Mich-again -

I suspect that the reason is the FACT that many among that “ethic group” are closely involved with Agriculture. They understand “WEATHER” very well.

-S-

323 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:40:14pm

re: #315 freetoken

Perhaps this proposition: any religious group with a well defined cultus will feel threatened by any proposed change in the environment in which it finds itself, and therefore in order to rally the troops will demonize the change (and the people associated with it.)

No?

Freetoken: Absolutely. There are countless examples in history of religious “revivals” coinciding with big, disturbing changes in a culture.

I was wondering, more specifically, why does the Religious Right seem to have been less successful taking on Global Warming, while they’ve made huge mileage from abortion and gay rights?

324 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:41:13pm

re: #318 subsailor68

That’s very, very cool! Oh yeah, waiting is always the worst part, but it would be really interesting to hear what BIL’s cousin had to say about the experience!

He said he was unimpressed with the way Clint Eastwood dressed for a bigtime Director of a Hollywood film when he came up to speak with him for a few minutes before the shoot. Only when they started filming did he realize Clint was going to be in the movie and the clothes were just what he wore in the scene.

325 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:41:19pm

re: #317 Dr. Shalit

ShanghaiEd -

YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING. That is all.

-S-

Not kidding at all, Dr. Shalit. Are you not familiar with the Dominionist movement?

326 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:42:32pm

re: #325 ShanghaiEd

ShanghaiEd -

I am. Pray, see my #322. Thank you.

-S

327 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:43:59pm

re: #323 ShanghaiEd

Freetoken: Absolutely. There are countless examples in history of religious “revivals” coinciding with big, disturbing changes in a culture.

I was wondering, more specifically, why does the Religious Right seem to have been less successful taking on Global Warming, while they’ve made huge mileage from abortion and gay rights?

SE … you give the Religious Right way more credit than they deserve … why do you think they would champion the Global Warming debate more than others … do you think they think it is a G-d issue? … I know many bible thumpers who do no not believe in Global Warming … or do you think the vast majority of the Religious Right just want to attach themselves to anything that is not left? …

328 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:44:13pm

re: #312 ShanghaiEd

I would also add Global Warming to that list of agendas they’ve tried to tie to religion. For some reason it seems to have worked far less well than with abortion and gays. Why do you think that is?



You know, I almost put Global Warming on that list.

I suspect one reason it hasn’t worked is because there are already churches, many of them evangelical, that are already green. Here’s an article from Time in 2006:

A Group of 86 evangelical Christian leaders launched a campaign today to educate Christians about climate change and urged the U.S. Congress to enact legislation to curb global warming. The initiative marks the first time that influential evangelicals have defied the White House on an environmental issue, going so far as to equate stopping global warming to their commitment to “protect unborn life.”

[Link: www.time.com…]

Basically I think the reason is that there’s no doctrinal unity among the Protestants and evangelicals in particular that the anti-GW people can appeal to. There’s a split in how they interpret scripture; the green ones believe God gave us stewardship over the earth and its creatures, and therefore there’s a duty to take care of it/them.

The others believe that God will provide no matter what we do to the earth.

And some even have the explicit belief that GW is a good thing, because they believe by destroying the earth we’re running down the clock on when Jesus will return. (James Watt believed that; here is a PDF doc about that.)

So the religious right that is on board with denying climate change can’t come out and admit that they believe that the destruction of the climate and the earth is a good thing. That’s why they’re silent on the issue, and motivated to keep religion out of the discussion.

329 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:44:19pm

re: #322 Dr. Shalit

Mich-again -

I suspect that the reason is the FACT that many among that “ethic group” are closely involved with Agriculture. They understand “WEATHER” very well.

-S-

True. However, the single biggest misconception about Climate Change is that climate and weather are the same. They’re not. Charles has given some good links to sites that explain the difference in terms that I could understand.

330 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:44:27pm

re: #321 jorline

Good evening all.

I just finished watching Gran Torino with my wife…great movie!

Hi jorline! Please take a quick look at my 308 and see if you found anything I saw even slightly possible. I’d love your take!

331 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:44:51pm

re: #323 ShanghaiEd

Freetoken: Absolutely. There are countless examples in history of religious “revivals” coinciding with big, disturbing changes in a culture.

I was wondering, more specifically, why does the Religious Right seem to have been less successful taking on Global Warming, while they’ve made huge mileage from abortion and gay rights?

Global warming isn’t as personal as abortion and gay rights are, IMO.

Abortion? IT KILLS TEH BABIES!1111 (equates unborn fetuses with living babies, always a clincher with the pro-birth crowd)

Gay rights? ABOMINATIONS BEFORE TEH LORD!1111 (and if gays get equal rights, that somehow equates with less rights for Christians)

Both can be used to argue that people are actually under threat - an immediate and personal threat. I’m not sure the same can be said of global warming.

332 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:45:36pm

re: #326 Dr. Shalit

ShanghaiEd -

I am. Pray, see my #322. Thank you.

-S

Sorry, I don’t see the connection between the two subjects.

333 Macker  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:46:26pm

Message For The Iranian People

To which I can only add: MOGH BAR IRI!

334 sagehen  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:47:17pm

An evolution thread seems exactly the best place to post a Galactica/Terminator fanvid….


[Link: www.imeem.com…]

335 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:48:04pm

re: #331 eclectic infidel

Global warming isn’t as personal as abortion and gay rights are, IMO.

Abortion? IT KILLS TEH BABIES!1111 (equates unborn fetuses with living babies, always a clincher with the pro-birth crowd)

Gay rights? ABOMINATIONS BEFORE TEH LORD!1111 (and if gays get equal rights, that somehow equates with less rights for Christians)

Both can be used to argue that people are actually under threat - an immediate and personal threat. I’m not sure the same can be said of global warming.

Good point. Whatever the extent of the damage of AGW, it’s further down the road than today’s abortions and today’s gayness.

Just human nature, I guess. Isn’t there a verse of scripture, “Sufficient to the day are the troubles thereto”?

336 Racer X  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:50:04pm

Israel develops freeze-dried blood powder

JERUSALEM, June 20 (UPI) — The Israeli army is working with a local company to turn soldiers’ blood into a freeze dried powder.

Blood samples are taken from new recruits and processed. In the battlefield, the powder can be mixed with water to treat wounded soldiers, The Jerusalem Post reported Friday.

337 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:53:48pm

re: #328 iceweasel

A Group of 86 evangelical Christian leaders

What I find odd about that is that there are 86 Mullahs in the Assembly of Experts in Iran. And on a related note, in American lingo to “86” something means to ignore it or throw it away.

338 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:54:28pm

re: #336 Racer X

Vampires will love it too.

339 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:54:33pm

re: #337 Mich-again

What I find odd about that is that there are 86 Mullahs in the Assembly of Experts in Iran. And on a related note, in American lingo to “86” something means to ignore it or throw it away.

Heh. Weird.

340 Racer X  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:55:04pm
341 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:58:13pm

re: #329 ShanghaiEd

ShanghaiEd -

The real difference of opinion is to the Anthropomorphic Effect. Charles believes in it more - I believe in it less. We agree that stuff like deforestation is likely to be hurtful. Where we diverge, perhaps, is that I believe that planting NEW trees will more or less cure this problem over time. I am not sure that Charles believes that, though I am sure he would agree with the idea of replanting after harvest as regards trees.
What I believe is that Earth, created by a “Higher Power” or Randomly, as you may believe, could shake off the entire Human Race as a Dog shakes off a flea. We Humans are NOT as important as we seem to think.

-S-

342 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:59:11pm

re: #323 ShanghaiEd


I was wondering, more specifically, why does the Religious Right seem to have been less successful taking on Global Warming, while they’ve made huge mileage from abortion and gay rights?

See my 328. The short answer is because there’s nothing like doctrinal unity or consensus of opinion within the religious right over environmentalism.

343 freetoken  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:59:13pm

re: #323 ShanghaiEd

I was wondering, more specifically, why does the Religious Right seem to have been less successful taking on Global Warming, while they’ve made huge mileage from abortion and gay rights?

Well, I guess I could answer with another question: what makes you certain the Religious Right has not been successful in “taking on Global Warming”? To whit, the large and well funded Anti-AGW campaign is mostly centered in the US, just as with creationism.

More pointedly, though, is that Darwin and evolution strikes at the heart of the existential solution that many religious believers have come to accept: that somehow they are special in a way that other animals are not.

AGW does not do that, directly. AGW does rub up against American religion which embraces the idea that God put the natural resources here for our use (e.g., see the recent Sarah Palin videos from her speech in NY.) AGW and all environmental concerns broach that belief.

In the end it is the fear of death, I believe, that is the greatest driver in religious thought, and there Evolution has much more potential threat (than AGW) in disturbing beliefs.

344 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:59:19pm

Hey Night Lizards! It’s hot and humid in Sioux City, Iowa. The Hotel room is wonderfully cool!

What happened in Iran today? I was in the car and not paying attention to much of anything. My apoligizes to Iowa Lizards, your land is lots of beautiful green, but after a while … .

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

345 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:59:44pm

re: #336 Racer X

Israel develops freeze-dried blood powder

JERUSALEM, June 20 (UPI) — The Israeli army is working with a local company to turn soldiers’ blood into a freeze dried powder.

Blood samples are taken from new recruits and processed. In the battlefield, the powder can be mixed with water to treat wounded soldiers, The Jerusalem Post reported Friday.

RacerX -

“…Taster’s Choice Blood?…” Works for me.

-S-

346 Racer X  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 9:59:49pm
347 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:01:56pm

re: #341 Dr. Shalit

I believe that planting NEW trees will more or less cure this problem over time.

Maybe, maybe not. But I can say that after having driven through dozens of neighborhoods these last couple years while I-75 is shut down in Detroit, that the ghetto is turning into a meadow. All those vacant lots are overrun with new trees. It has to be the greenest big city in America.

348 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:03:00pm

re: #327 JacksonTn

SE … you give the Religious Right way more credit than they deserve … why do you think they would champion the Global Warming debate more than others … do you think they think it is a G-d issue? … I know many bible thumpers who do no not believe in Global Warming … or do you think the vast majority of the Religious Right just want to attach themselves to anything that is not left? …

Jackson: I didn’t say the Religious Right has championed anti-Global Warming more than other causes, but they’ve definitely championed it. See “Dominion Theology,” a very active movement which, greatly oversimplified, says that God commands us to use the earth’s resources until they’re all used up, and that failing to do so shows our lack of faith.

I’m sure you don’t buy that argument, but millions of people do. And some of them (James Watt, as Iceweasel points out above) have held very powerful positions in government.

You make a good point, I think, that many in the Religious Right want to avoid being associated with anything they define as “left,” and they’ve definitely framed AGW as being in that category…even as more and more individual churches come out in favor of conservation and green policies.

349 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:08:09pm

re: #346 Racer X

I wonder what he did to bring all that on himself? And how long till Tom Green tries to duplicate that scene.

350 Karridine  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:08:38pm

re: #316 Mich-again

“Flags of Our Fathers”, you recall, rested heavily on war-weariness, waning desire to follow-through, a nearly-empty war-funds account and the spiritual fatigue that represented…

I haven’t even SEEN Torino yet, but your analysis seems sound…

351 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:09:43pm

re: #347 Mich-again

It has to be the greenest big city in America.

Complete with packs of wild dogs roaming the hood looking for food.

352 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:10:35pm

re: #348 ShanghaiEd

Or it could be that secular individuals regard environmentalism or climate change or any other cause as religions. These causes are substitutes for their lack of traditional religious beliefs. Whadda ya think?

353 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:12:12pm

Happy Summer, Lizards!

*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

354 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:12:43pm

re: #350 Karridine

“Flags of Our Fathers”, you recall, rested heavily on war-weariness, waning desire to follow-through, a nearly-empty war-funds account and the spiritual fatigue that represented…

I haven’t even SEEN Torino yet, but your analysis seems sound…

Hi Karridine! Okay, I’m not gonna do anything to even come close to spoiling Gran Torino for ya, but man, you hit it on the head with Flags, and just keep everything you said (war-weariness, waning desire, nearly empty, and spiritual fatigue) in mind when you see it!

Great, great list of themes! Terrific post!

(You’ll know what I mean when you see Gran Torino.)

355 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:13:18pm

re: #348 ShanghaiEd

Jackson: I didn’t say the Religious Right has championed anti-Global Warming more than other causes, but they’ve definitely championed it. See “Dominion Theology,” a very active movement which, greatly oversimplified, says that God commands us to use the earth’s resources until they’re all used up, and that failing to do so shows our lack of faith.

I’m sure you don’t buy that argument, but millions of people do. And some of them (James Watt, as Iceweasel points out above) have held very powerful positions in government.

You make a good point, I think, that many in the Religious Right want to avoid being associated with anything they define as “left,” and they’ve definitely framed AGW as being in that category…even as more and more individual churches come out in favor of conservation and green policies.

SE … you see … I am a Christian … I am a Catholic and to be honest with you … I never knew there was such a thing as so many Christians embracing creationism (and yes I know about Dominion Theology as I also know all about Black Liberation Theology) … maybe I lived a sheltered life … maybe … I also did not know that so many in some circles hated Jews … I was never brought up that way and to my surprise after really listening to the whispers of the left in the democratic circles I finally opened my eyes and saw .. yes … many of them do think that Israel is a problem and just wish it would go away … hey … it is all what you want to open your eyes to see … Eyes Wide Shut … never a good thing …

Anyway … here is what I am listening to … and good night all Lizards … and Christine was the best singer in Fleetwood Mac …

356 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:13:36pm

re: #341 Dr. Shalit

ShanghaiEd -

What I believe is that Earth, created by a “Higher Power” or Randomly, as you may believe, could shake off the entire Human Race as a Dog shakes off a flea. We Humans are NOT as important as we seem to think.

-S-

I have no argument whatever with the fact that the Earth can shake off humans like a dog shakes off fleas. And may have already started.

I don’t know of anybody saying the Earth won’t survive, do you? The problem is, I don’t want to be shaken off. I’ve got stuff to do, you know? I’m not a tree-hugger. I’m looking out for Number One.

357 Racer X  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:14:37pm

re: #349 Mich-again

I wonder what he did to bring all that on himself? And how long till Tom Green tries to duplicate that scene.

That looked staged. Two fat cops take forever to cuff him, then they just let the guy run off?

358 Bobblehead  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:15:05pm

re: #353 MandyManners

Happy Summer, Lizards!

*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Right back at you Mandy girl!

359 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:18:30pm

re: #352 solomonpanting

Or it could be that secular individuals regard environmentalism or climate change or any other cause as religions.

Faith in something that can not be proven until its too late to do anything about it. hmm.

360 Mich-again  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:20:30pm

re: #357 Racer X

That looked staged. Two fat cops take forever to cuff him, then they just let the guy run off?

If the guy had been wearing an Oscar Mayer Wiener costume I would swear it was an episode of “Reno 911”. (The only Must See TV left)

361 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:22:21pm

re: #347 Mich-again

Maybe, maybe not. But I can say that after having driven through dozens of neighborhoods these last couple years while I-75 is shut down in Detroit, that the ghetto is turning into a meadow. All those vacant lots are overrun with new trees. It has to be the greenest big city in America.

Mich-again -

Left long enough, plant life will re-assert itself through cracks in concrete. As to DETROIT - I can approach this discussion with a different perspective. I worked my way through College and Part of Grad School as an “assembler” working for Ford Motor Company, and a UAW Committeeman as well. Truth be told, apart from losing its monopoly when the Japanese came in - the “Big 3” for all intents and purposes FORGOT how to build CARS, those 4-wheeled things that carry passengers and a bit of luggage, and DO NOT tow or Go Off-Road.
They remembered how to build TRUCKS - and still dominate that part of the market. Things worked well enough until gasoline hit $4/gal.
Given the choice, Americans would rather drive Roomy, Large(r), Safe(r) vehicles. Expensive fuel might change that. In that case, “Detroit” will have to learn how to build CARS that will sell again - or go out of business. The Ford Fusion and Chevy Malibu are a GOOD START. Chrysler is not even in the game unless FIAT has a +/- Camry Sized car I am unaware of. That is all for now.

-S-

362 Bobblehead  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:23:45pm

re: #344 ggt

Hey Night Lizards! It’s hot and humid in Sioux City, Iowa. The Hotel room is wonderfully cool!

What happened in Iran today? I was in the car and not paying attention to much of anything. My apoligizes to Iowa Lizards, your land is lots of beautiful green, but after a while … .

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

Nothing like walking down the hall of a hotel after a long day of traveling, opening the door to your room and letting that cool air envelop you. That is, of course, unless the maid forgot to turn the air on; in which case you open the door as a blast of hot, stale air hits you in the face, you swear and head to the ice machine down the hall.

363 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:26:03pm

re: #360 Mich-again

If the guy had been wearing an Oscar Mayer Wiener costume I would swear it was an episode of “Reno 911”. (The only Must See TV left)

YES! upding for Reno 911. And the costume! best season ending ever

364 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:30:30pm

re: #342 iceweasel

See my 328. The short answer is because there’s nothing like doctrinal unity or consensus of opinion within the religious right over environmentalism.

I agree, that’s a huge factor, for the churchgoers. My only quibble is that a lot of people who are not necessarily religious seem to have been influenced by the fervor of the anti-abortion and anti-gay factions who frame it as a religious matter. And I haven’t seen equivalent influence on the AGW side. Al Gore gets mentioned 100 times more often than God, where climate is concerned. A mystery.

365 BatGuano  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:35:21pm

re: #363 iceweasel

YES! upding for Reno 911. And the costume! best season ending ever

Hi Iceweasel. It looks like Reno 911 to me too. But is it real?

366 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:35:29pm

re: #352 solomonpanting

Or it could be that secular individuals regard environmentalism or climate change or any other cause as religions. These causes are substitutes for their lack of traditional religious beliefs. Whadda ya think?


Food for thought. I haven’t seen evidence of that secular belief, myself, though. I have seen members of the Religious Right compare environmentalism to religion, but then they do the same with evolution. And with science in general. “Thou shall have no other gods before me,” etc. I think it’s a red herring.

367 lostlakehiker  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:37:00pm

re: #270 Dr. Shalit

Killgore Trout -

Neda WAS a beautiful Young Woman - Born in the wrong Nation/Zeitgeist. Even the Afghans see it better historically. The Afghans say that EVERY BIRD requires TWO wings to fly. The Mullahs of the so-called “Iran” do NOT see it that way - at least at present. They will be on the losing side of history, and, if not careful, in its dustbin, figuratively if not literally.

-S-

Don’t write off her life so quickly. There are things worth dying for. She has achieved in a short life more than most of us will even if granted a long one. Some deaths are senseless, but the thugs who killed her have lost more than just aother round of ammo. They have lost every shred of the moral high ground.

A nation needs dedicated, self-sacrificing heroes just to go ahead with the ordinary business of daily life. The Iranian regime will discover, if it survives this upheaval, that it cannot recruit such people to its cause. It will find that it can live only by the sword and the lie, and in the long run, it will find that its armed forces and its economy fail every test.

You cannot cheat your way through the tests reality sets.

368 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:38:13pm

re: #359 Mich-again

Faith in something that can not be proven until its too late to do anything about it. hmm.

You have to admit that many are as fanatical, or more, about this or that cause as are many religious folks to their respective faiths. I’m not saying they’re correct, just that they possess devotions that would otherwise be directed to more traditional religions. You know

When men stop believing in God they don’t believe in nothing; they believe in anything.

369 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:43:59pm

re: #343 freetoken

Well, I guess I could answer with another question: what makes you certain the Religious Right has not been successful in “taking on Global Warming”? To whit, the large and well funded Anti-AGW campaign is mostly centered in the US, just as with creationism.

More pointedly, though, is that Darwin and evolution strikes at the heart of the existential solution that many religious believers have come to accept: that somehow they are special in a way that other animals are not.

AGW does not do that, directly. AGW does rub up against American religion which embraces the idea that God put the natural resources here for our use (e.g., see the recent Sarah Palin videos from her speech in NY.) AGW and all environmental concerns broach that belief.

In the end it is the fear of death, I believe, that is the greatest driver in religious thought, and there Evolution has much more potential threat (than AGW) in disturbing beliefs.

Makes a lot of sense to me. Where do you think abortion fits into the mix? On the existential side, I’d think.

370 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:44:37pm

re: #308 subsailor68

Evening all! Just wanted to run something by all the lizards, kinda get some feedback.

The bride and I saw Gran Torino last night. It’s really a terrific movie.

It wasn’t until about 4 am that I came to the realization that this may be the third film in a trilogy.

First, there was Flags of Our Fathers. Eastwood followed that up with Letters
From Iwo Jima. It was basically two films telling a story from both sides.

Okay, that was clear enough. But it wasn’t until we saw Gran Torino that it dawned on me that it could well be viewed (yeah, I know it was about a Korean War vet and the Hmongs from Vietnam) as the closure to the first two films.

Think about it as thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. The first film (Flags) was told from the American perspective. The second (Letters) from the Japanese (i.e. Asian) perspective.

But Gran Torino brings together the two enemies, and finally provides closure (not only for Walt, but for the Hmong - read Asian) for both groups.

Fine, maybe I’m reaching, but I love the idea that all three films fit together as two former adversarial groups finally let the past go.

That’s one way to look at it, and a good one. Here’s another way to look at it: that Gran Torino was the last appearance of an older and wiser Dirty Harry.

371 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:46:48pm

re: #364 ShanghaiEd

Al Gore gets mentioned 100 times more often than God, where climate is concerned. A mystery.


It is odd.

We joke about BDS, but it isn’t a joke; there are people who hated Bush and still do.
It’s been little noticed that there’s been a similar phenomena of blind hate on the fringe right, directed, oddly, at John Kerry and Al Gore.

I say ‘oddly’ because these guys didn’t even win their respective elections for POTUS. So why is there still so much hate for them, and why does it seem to have such a personal quality? Not a day goes by that I don’t see some sneering reference to Kerry somewhere in the blogosphere, usually about the Swift Boat Vets story. It’s been how many years now? Yet it would take me about one minute to find someone on a place like HA or Free Republic talking about him in ways that suggest he murdered the poster’s puppy and then ate it.

Same with Gore. He kept a fairly low profile right after 2000. Inconvenient truth didn’t even come out til 2006. But in between there was still the constant jokes about him being a liar, having invented the Internet, needing advice from Naomi Wolf about what to wear…It was endless.

I suspect that the rabid partisanship during the Clinton years and the Lewinsky witchhunt are to blame. A lot of rage was cranked up back then, and it seems to have become a perpetual motion machine for the fringe right: the need to identify and attack, attack, attack the enemy, forever.

I’ve been rereading Hofstader’s 1964 essay “The Paranoid Style In American Politics” today; still timely.

372 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:46:55pm

re: #370 Salamantis

That’s one way to look at it, and a good one. Here’s another way to look at it: that Gran Torino was the last appearance of an older and wiser Dirty Harry.

Good call! Could be that as well. And the greatest thing would be if Eastwood managed to close both of those at the same time. Never thought about that, but it’s a great idea!

373 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:48:12pm

re: #368 solomonpanting


When men stop believing in God they don’t believe in nothing; they believe in anything.

I’ve heard that sentiment a lot, but I don’t think it’s that simple.

At this moment, there are fierce believers in God committing terrible atrocities all over the world. And nonbelievers who would never do such a thing. And the reverse is also true. Isn’t it? So, definitely not a hard and fast rule.

374 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:48:50pm

re: #336 Racer X

Israel develops freeze-dried blood powder

JERUSALEM, June 20 (UPI) — The Israeli army is working with a local company to turn soldiers’ blood into a freeze dried powder.

Blood samples are taken from new recruits and processed. In the battlefield, the powder can be mixed with water to treat wounded soldiers, The Jerusalem Post reported Friday.

Instant matzoh ball mix!

/////////////////////////////////

375 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:49:49pm

re: #371 iceweasel

edit

Yet it would take me about one minute to find someone on a place like HA or Free Republic talking about him today in ways that suggest he murdered the poster’s puppy and then ate it just yesterday.

PIMF. Proofreading.

376 Karridine  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:50:03pm

re: #367 lostlakehiker

LostLake, a dozen updings!

Well said.

377 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:52:10pm

re: #373 ShanghaiEd

At this moment, there are fierce believers in God committing terrible atrocities all over the world.

Yes, I believe there may be an example of this phenomenon. It’s been a hot topic here for a number of years.

378 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:52:25pm

re: #365 BatGuano

Hi Iceweasel. It looks like Reno 911 to me too. But is it real?

Hey Bat!
I have no idea if it’s real or not. It’s hard to believe, isn’t it? (I’m just a Reno 911 fan)

379 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:53:19pm

OT Sorry if this has already been posted but Discovery Channel is airing the Somali pirate thing with the Mersk. Kind of good but it’s almost over.

380 BatGuano  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:55:46pm

re: #378 iceweasel

Hey Bat!
I have no idea if it’s real or not. It’s hard to believe, isn’t it? (I’m just a Reno 911 fan)

If it’s real, it’s freaky.

381 srb1976  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:57:18pm

re: #379 Pvt Bin Jammin

OT Sorry if this has already been posted but Discovery Channel is airing the Somali pirate thing with the Mersk. Kind of good but it’s almost over.

Nat’l Geographic is doing one on the CIA & Al-qeada (however the hell you spell it)

382 Cygnus  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:57:19pm

re: #310 Mich-again

That was a long way to go for that. But I have to admit, you had me hook, line, and sinker.

I thought there was something fishy about that joke.

383 realwest  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:57:20pm

re: #379 Pvt Bin Jammin

OT Sorry if this has already been posted but Discovery Channel is airing the Somali pirate thing with the Mersk. Kind of good but it’s almost over.

Kind of good but it’s almost over?!
Why’d ya have to tell us that now! LOL!
When you say good, do you mean accurate ?

384 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:58:06pm

re: #355 JacksonTn

SE … you see … I am a Christian … I am a Catholic and to be honest with you … I never knew there was such a thing as so many Christians embracing creationism (and yes I know about Dominion Theology as I also know all about Black Liberation Theology) … maybe I lived a sheltered life … maybe … I also did not know that so many in some circles hated Jews … I was never brought up that way and to my surprise after really listening to the whispers of the left in the democratic circles I finally opened my eyes and saw .. yes … many of them do think that Israel is a problem and just wish it would go away … hey … it is all what you want to open your eyes to see … Eyes Wide Shut … never a good thing …

Anyway … here is what I am listening to … and good night all Lizards … and Christine was the best singer in Fleetwood Mac …

Black Liberation theology actually borrowed quite a bit from Catholic latin american liberation theology (A Theology of Liberation by Gustavo Gutierrez, Church: Charism & Power - Liberation Theology and the Institutional Church by Leonardo Boff), seasoned with Black Muslim theology and marinated in James H. Cone (Jeremiah Wright’s theological mentor).

385 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:58:14pm

re: #371 iceweasel

America was born divided. I’ve heard it said most American’s supported the crown in our Revolutionary war. There is nothing new under our political sun.

386 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:58:37pm

re: #366 ShanghaiEd

I haven’t seen evidence of that secular belief, myself, though.

Earth First, PETA, eco-terrorist groups, anti-animal testing groups, to name a few.

387 realwest  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 10:59:21pm

re: #381 srb1976

Nat’l Geographic is doing one on the CIA & Al-qeada (however the hell you spell it)

How is it? And am I correct that it’s a series, not just a one night telling?

388 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:00:18pm

re: #371 iceweasel

Oh, yeah. The triumph of the Rage Machine. A marvel to behold. Much easier to focus hate on a person, rather than an idea.

It’s definitely been effective, politically. One oddity to me is that for all the Rage Machine’s power and sophistication, it’s usually at least 5 to 10 years behind current events. The smear moves fast, but the updating leaves a lot to be desired. Such as the recent discussion of Maureen Dowd, and the assumption by many that she was a left-winter rather than a perpetual opportunist.

And “debunking” of certain myths rarely catches up to the myths, but I guess it’s human nature to cleave to the familiar.

389 freetoken  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:01:30pm

re: #369 ShanghaiEd

Makes a lot of sense to me. Where do you think abortion fits into the mix? On the existential side, I’d think.

Very much so. The religious arguments against abortion often include the OT verse about David being “knitted” in the womb, that God knew him before he was born, etc.

Again, it is part of the idea that humans are different than animals.

390 subsailor68  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:01:49pm

Well all, off to bed, perchance to dream. Aye, there’s the rub.

Oops, just the cat. Never mind.

Hope everyone has a wonderful evening, and a terrific week!

391 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:02:02pm

re: #381 srb1976

Nat’l Geographic is doing one on the CIA & Al-qeada (however the hell you spell it)

Sounds kind of good. My show is over but the Navy Seals all took their shots at the same time on those pirates. Good on them.

392 realwest  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:02:35pm

re: #385 MrPaulRevere
Well, MrPaulRevere, as it happens most historians (back in the day when I was one!) calculated that approximately 1/3 were for independence, 1/3 against it and the final 1/3 didn’t really care one way or another.
Thank God for the 1/3 who were for Independence!
Othewise we’d be speaking English now!
/

393 srb1976  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:02:40pm

re: #387 realwest

Thanks to the kids, I’ve only seen it in bits, but it seems like it’s pretty good….lots of interviews with the people involved….I don’t know if it’s a series or not (sometimes it’s hard to pay attention around here, sorry)

394 realwest  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:04:59pm

re: #393 srb1976 I understand the difficulty in focusing - were the people interview identified by name?

395 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:05:34pm

re: #386 solomonpanting

Earth First, PETA, eco-terrorist groups, anti-animal testing groups, to name a few.

I know the organizations you’re referring to. I haven’t seen evidence that their adherents are “religious” about them in any sense, unless you broaden the definition of religion to include anything that people are extremely passionate about. Do you have specific examples of the religious aspect?

396 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:06:41pm

weet dreams all!

397 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:06:54pm

re: #384 Salamantis

Black Liberation theology actually borrowed quite a bit from Catholic latin american liberation theology (A Theology of Liberation by Gustavo Gutierrez, Church: Charism & Power - Liberation Theology and the Institutional Church by Leonardo Boff), seasoned with Black Muslim theology and marinated in James H. Cone (Jeremiah Wright’s theological mentor).

Sal … where you been? .. anyway had to log back in for this …

Oh, yeah … they may have bogarted from the Catholics … but their little “stew” they created in no way is like what I recognize as Catholicism … I don’t friggin care how they try to play it … the Catholic church has been fighting them for 40 years … if you have any evidence to play as to how they are like Catholics bring it on … cuz as far as I know Cone and his group are nothing but big time racist … the fact that Obama went to that church for so long is very telling to me … most people do not even know what Black Liberation Theology is even about … they could not wrap their heads around it … I do not understand how that was conveniently “overlooked” … oh, wait … yes I can … head swirls …

398 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:07:38pm

re: #390 subsailor68

Well all, off to bed, perchance to dream. Aye, there’s the rub.

Oops, just the cat. Never mind.

Hope everyone has a wonderful evening, and a terrific week!

Aye, there’s the rub…bing of the cat. Great way to end a day.

399 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:07:50pm

Apparently I did my job all too well; there don’t seem to be any more trolls plaguing evo threads any more.

Oh, well…although I miss the pastopportunities to logically and evidentially baste their gamy buttocks for the ban stick barbeque, I harbor no regrets.

There will always be idiotarianisms, and trolls here who give their last full measure of idiocy in their defence.

400 srb1976  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:08:48pm

re: #394 realwest

I understand the difficulty in focusing - were the people interview identified by name?

Some….some even on camera….they also covered alot about co-operation with the FBI and with Pakistani law enforcement post 9-11

401 realwest  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:09:49pm

Well this thread has been very interesting reading, I must say. But I must also say good night to y’all.
Hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

402 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:12:32pm

re: #399 Salamantis

Apparently I did my job all too well; there don’t seem to be any more trolls plaguing evo threads any more.

Sigh. Couldn’t you at least have left us a “starter” troll, the way bakers do when using yeast? : )

403 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:12:32pm

re: #399 Salamantis

I learned a lot from you:

404 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:15:01pm

re: #388 ShanghaiEd

Oh, yeah. The triumph of the Rage Machine. A marvel to behold. Much easier to focus hate on a person, rather than an idea.

It’s definitely been effective, politically. One oddity to me is that for all the Rage Machine’s power and sophistication, it’s usually at least 5 to 10 years behind current events. The smear moves fast, but the updating leaves a lot to be desired. Such as the recent discussion of Maureen Dowd, and the assumption by many that she was a left-winter rather than a perpetual opportunist.

And “debunking” of certain myths rarely catches up to the myths, but I guess it’s human nature to cleave to the familiar.

Completely agree. Highlighted the above sentence because that’s a point which hadn’t explicitly occurred to me, but I think you’re completely right. Why is it that the echochamber recycles the old hates from ten years ago?

One reason would be that it’s because they’re effective and work, so long as you never leave the echochamber.
This might relate back to the discussion we were having earlier about the seeming total collapse of the Rep Message Machine. It’s not just that the infrastructure collapsed, but things have changed so much that the 5/10 year old smears just aren’t working any more— except for those firmly in the echochamber, that hardcore 28% or so.

This is also probably why it’s seemed like the right-o-sphere has increasingly been interested only in talking to itself this last week, and not about Iran. They’re running posts on ice cream and Obama instead. It’s not just that the playbook is 5 or 10 years old now; they’re entering a place where the rest of the country literally has no idea what the hell they’re talking about. (nirthers are a great example of this). Maybe they believed that canard about “When we act, we create our own reality” for too long; they’ve created a parallel (and paranoid) reality that bears no relation to the world the rest of us are in.

In re: Dowd, I think most of the individuals here who assumed she was a lefty did so because they haven’t been reading her— (no shame in that, no one can read everyone, and its not like MoDo is worth reading anyway) — so they were working on a chain of association that said “OpEd columnist for the NYT” and concluded that she had to be left. The NYT would still bill her as one of its liberal voices, and a prized one, for that matter.

405 sagehen  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:15:42pm

re: #369 ShanghaiEd

Makes a lot of sense to me. Where do you think abortion fits into the mix? On the existential side, I’d think.

Most of the anti-abortion people claim they’re passionate about saving babies, but their actual specific policy positions, and what compromises they will or won’t accept, make clear that a significant percentage of them are really more interested in controlling women. Or if not affirmatively eager to control women, at least not bothered by the idea that women should be controlled.

Every President that’s ever called himself pro-life, and specifically advocated for more restrictions on abortion, it’s not a freakish coincidence that all their wives and daughters have chosen to be quoted as pro-choice.

406 solomonpanting  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:17:50pm

re: #395 ShanghaiEd

In broad, general terms of a reverence towards nature pushing adherants to violence, the placing of animals at or above that of humans, worshipping trees…

407 JacksonTn  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:18:46pm

re: #405 sagehen

Most of the anti-abortion people claim they’re passionate about saving babies, but their actual specific policy positions, and what compromises they will or won’t accept, make clear that a significant percentage of them are really more interested in controlling women. Or if not affirmatively eager to control women, at least not bothered by the idea that women should be controlled.

Every President that’s ever called himself pro-life, and specifically advocated for more restrictions on abortion, it’s not a freakish coincidence that all their wives and daughters have chosen to be quoted as pro-choice.

Sag …. and you know this how? … did you ask Laura Bush? … just wondering how you make a blanket statement like that …

408 NY Nana  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:20:38pm

OT: The next time NY Grampa gets me to watch a movie about Pearl Harbor?

Remind me to hide under the computer desk. We both were 3 years old when it happened.

Excellent movie, but I am going to have nightmares. Oh, well, it was Fathers’ Day.

G’nite, Lizards. Sweet dreams…

/I am looking for my teddy bear and blankie.

409 srb1976  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:21:40pm

re: #405 sagehen

I think the problem with “pro-life” politicians is that it is fairly easy to believe that every pregnancy ends with a healthy, wanted child…until you are smacked in the face with the reality that this is not true. I don’t think anyone sets out with the goal of “controlling women” I just don’t think that anyone wants to think about the things that would drive a woman to have an abortion past a certain point…..hell, I’ll freely admit that I don’t want to think about them, and I’ve seen some of them

410 srb1976  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:25:55pm

Damn….seems like every time I get serious for a second I kill the thread = )
Sorry

411 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:26:03pm

re: #403 MrPaulRevere

I learned a lot from you:



Thanx for the compliment. But in a way, I think I made the same ‘mistake’ that Studebaker did. They built their cars TOO well, and they lasted waaay too long, so their customers didn’t have to re-purchase.

I just couldn’t bring myself to plan obsolescence into my arguments, even if it were possible to do so. After all, obsolescence is the destiny of those who irrationally cling to discredited past conceptions, not the fate of those who accept the empirical evidence for present understandings, and extrapolate them towards future consolidations.

412 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:26:16pm

re: #408 NY Nana

Nite, Nana. You just need a little puppy to cuddle up with.

I am out too. Hope all of the lizard dads had a great day,

413 iceweasel  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:28:32pm

re: #409 srb1976

I think the problem with “pro-life” politicians is that it is fairly easy to believe that every pregnancy ends with a healthy, wanted child…until you are smacked in the face with the reality that this is not true. I don’t think anyone sets out with the goal of “controlling women” I just don’t think that anyone wants to think about the things that would drive a woman to have an abortion past a certain point…..hell, I’ll freely admit that I don’t want to think about them, and I’ve seen some of them

Agree with everything you say, with the minor quibble that there are some who do have the goal of controlling women, specifically the goal of control over women’s sexuality and reproductive capacity.

It’s the only way to make sense of the religious right’s war on reproductive rights. I’m not talking about the people who are merely anti-abortion, mind you, or even the vast majority of people who are anti-abortion. Or even everyone opposed to it for religious reasons.

I’m talking about the attempts spearheaded by the Religious Right to define everything as abortion. Like emergency contraception or the morning after pill. Like birth control pills themselves! and the push for allowing ‘conscience clauses’ that would allow pharmacists the right to refuse to distribute them.

Those aren’t about being ‘anti-abortion’, those are about controlling women’s sexuality and reproductive life.

414 Winslow  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:31:01pm

re: #403 MrPaulRevere

re: #399 Salamantis

An ode to a lost troll.

415 srb1976  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:32:41pm

re: #413 iceweasel

That’s true enough…I tend to block the “no birth-control, no abortions, no nothing” people together with the ones who won’t let their daughters get HPV vaccines for fear they will be encouraged to have sex (as if THAT’S the disease teenagers worry about)

My own views on the subject tend to not line up with anyone, so I try not to attribute sexist motives to things that can be explained by ignorance = )

416 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:40:32pm

re: #404 iceweasel


In re: Dowd, I think most of the individuals here who assumed she was a lefty did so because they haven’t been reading her— (no shame in that, no one can read everyone, and its not like MoDo is worth reading anyway) — so they were working on a chain of association that said “OpEd columnist for the NYT” and concluded that she had to be left. The NYT would still bill her as one of its liberal voices, and a prized one, for that matter.

Oh, yeah. That’s a huge, related victory of the Message Machine, I think, that they’ve virtually killed the notion of objective facts. There are “my facts,” and “your facts,” and never the twain shall meet. And even when you accept “my facts” as valid, you can choose to “believe” the opposite is reality. Spooky.

Speaking of personification, entire publications and wire services…most of the major ones, in fact…have been negated as sources of fact by the Machine, for normal conversation purposes. I always cringe when I link to a news story because the source, no matter how reputable, may not be “acceptable” to commenters on one blog or another.

But, as you say, I think we’re gradually surfacing from that frustrating muddle, for various reasons. Sure hope so. It’s no way to live.

417 Salamantis  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:46:07pm

re: #373 ShanghaiEd

I’ve heard that sentiment a lot, but I don’t think it’s that simple.

At this moment, there are fierce believers in God committing terrible atrocities all over the world. And nonbelievers who would never do such a thing. And the reverse is also true. Isn’t it? So, definitely not a hard and fast rule.

Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things — that takes religion.
- Steven Weinberg

Sal: and how will religion persuade good people to do bad things? By convincing them that bad things - such as poisoning public high school science classes with creationist dogma, firebombing abortion clinics and gay bars, gunning down abortion doctors, and bashing gays - are actually good things.

418 sagehen  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:46:11pm

re: #407 JacksonTn

Sag …. and you know this how? … did you ask Laura Bush? … just wondering how you make a blanket statement like that …

Laura Bush hardly has been expansive on the issue of abortion rights. Asked on the eve of the first inauguration whether Roe v. Wade should be overturned, she said, “No.” Asked during the 2004 presidential race whether that was still her position, she said, “Yeah.” Her terseness notwithstanding, she is a part of an unbroken tradition of Republican first ladies who supported a woman’s right to choose, back to Pat Nixon, who said, “I believe abortion is a personal choice.”

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

(p.s. — what’s the html to make those spiffy links out of an article title?)

419 ShanghaiEd  Sun, Jun 21, 2009 11:46:17pm

re: #406 solomonpanting

In broad, general terms of a reverence towards nature pushing adherants to violence, the placing of animals at or above that of humans, worshipping trees…

I’m sure there are folks on every fringe, but in my reading on the subject it seems they’re the exception rather than the rule. Certainly not more than .01%, say, of the influence and reach of organized religions.

420 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:03:23am

re: #416 ShanghaiEd

Oh, yeah. That’s a huge, related victory of the Message Machine, I think, that they’ve virtually killed the notion of objective facts. There are “my facts,” and “your facts,” and never the twain shall meet. And even when you accept “my facts” as valid, you can choose to “believe” the opposite is reality. Spooky.

Speaking of personification, entire publications and wire services…most of the major ones, in fact…have been negated as sources of fact by the Machine, for normal conversation purposes. I always cringe when I link to a news story because the source, no matter how reputable, may not be “acceptable” to commenters on one blog or another.

But, as you say, I think we’re gradually surfacing from that frustrating muddle, for various reasons. Sure hope so. It’s no way to live.

Actually, the enduring success of the Message Machine is that it’s dragged the Overton Window all the way to the right. It’s succeeded in framing all debates in such a way that what is only moderately left of center now appears like an excessive and ‘radically left’ position.

This is still happening. The fight over Sotomayor is an excellent example. She is a moderate. Yet the fullon screech fest portraying her as some crazy leftist isn’t designed to halt her confirmation; that’s going to go forward. She’s replacing a liberal justice anyway and there will be no ideological shift in the makeup of the court.

The real purpose of labelling her a lefty wacko is to prepare the frame for when Obama tries to nominate a real liberal, and/or replace a conservative justice. The Overton Window will have been dragged all the way to the right, and a true liberal will then look like an anarchist.

———————
For anyone interested and not familiar with the concept:
This. is a fairly good (if very partisan!) illustration of how the Overton Window works: (i like it for the pictures. You don’t have to agree with the examples chosen, but it gets the idea across)

This is the real explanation and serious one.

421 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:05:18am

re: #417 Salamantis

Wow. Heck of a Weinberg quote. Much wisdom there. I’m going to remember that one and use it often. With attribution, of course. :)

422 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:09:00am

re: #420 iceweasel

Overton window! Yes, yes, yes. Important stuff that’s not mentioned nearly often enough when analyzing current events. I’m bookmarking those two links, to help jog my memory when the need arises.

423 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:12:40am

The fight over Sotomayor is an excellent example. She is a moderate.

Moderates address La Raza all the time, do they?

Moderates think its okay to throw out a whole exam if black people don’t do as well on it as non-black people, because the exam is prima facie racist?

Maybe in Europe those are moderate positions. In America, moderates don’t think this way.

A moderate position on, say, affirmative action might be, if you have equally good candidates, choose the protected minority. I have often heard affirmative action described as though it DOES work this way.

But to say that an outcome in which minorities are over- or under-represented is racist on its face is a far from moderate position. It is common in academia.

424 sagehen  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:19:31am

re: #423 Gabriel Hanna


Moderates address La Raza all the time, do they?

Moderates think its okay to throw out a whole exam if black people don’t do as well on it as non-black people, because the exam is prima facie racist?

Maybe in Europe those are moderate positions. In America, moderates don’t think this way.

A moderate position on, say, affirmative action might be, if you have equally good candidates, choose the protected minority. I have often heard affirmative action described as though it DOES work this way.

But to say that an outcome in which minorities are over- or under-represented is racist on its face is a far from moderate position. It is common in academia.


John McCain Speech at the 2008 National Council of La Raza Convention
[Link: www.campaign.com…]

As for the Ricci case… Title VII says what it says. Sotomayor didn’t write the law, she just ruled in accordance with it. You’d have preferred she legislate from the bench?

The Supremes accepted the case, probably, because Roberts is hoping to overturn that portion of Title VII.

425 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:24:54am

re: #424 sagehen

John McCain Speech at the 2008 National Council of La Raza Convention
[Link: www.campaign.com…]

As for the Ricci case… Title VII says what it says. Sotomayor didn’t write the law, she just ruled in accordance with it. You’d have preferred she legislate from the bench?

The Supremes accepted the case, probably, because Roberts is hoping to overturn that portion of Title VII.

Given Sotomayor’s actual legal record and opinions, the right ought to be realising that she’s the best possible candidate they were going to get. Moreover, her record and opinions show that she’s the opposite of that hated and feared boogeyman, the ‘activist judge’.

GHWB first appointed her. He just came out in support of her, for crissakes.

426 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:26:11am

John McCain Speech at the 2008 National Council of La Raza Convention

Since he is not a moderate on the immigration issue, of course he goes to La Raza to pander to radicals.

Title VII says what it says. Sotomayor didn’t write the law, she just ruled in accordance with it.

Justice and the law are separate concepts. If the law really does say so, then a moderate would think it was unjust. Sotomayor wholeheartedly approves of it.

I don’t know much about Title VII, but I know that Title IX doesn’t really mandate that athletic scholarships be equally distributed amongst men and women, so that you get two dozen women’s sports and football.

What happened is that people, who were not moderates, interpreted that law in such a way that distributing the scholarships equally is the only way to avoid a lawsuit.

For example, if you are a university, and you know that you only had 100 women who were interested in athletics and 500 men, you could offer scholarships in the ratio 1:5. And then a Women’s Studies major would sue, and you’d have to prove, expensively via lawyers, that the 1:5 ratio was justified. Offer them in 1:1, no lawsuit.

The Overton Window seems like one more excuse to not have to engage your opponents arguments.

427 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:29:36am

re: #426 Gabriel Hanna

The Overton Window seems like one more excuse to not have to engage your opponents arguments.

The Overton Window is merely a concept in political theory about the way political debates are conducted and political opinions are formed in this country (or indeed, anywhere),

There’s nothing specifically partisan about the concept. Some claim that the right has succeeded in dragging the window over to the right and thus marginalising true liberal opinions; you would probably think that the overton window is too far to the left on some matters.

It’s just an abstract concept and a way of understanding debates. Regardless of political persuasion.

428 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:32:06am

you would probably think that the overton window is too far to the left on some matters.

That’s my whole point. Then I would say “My opponents dragged the window to the left” instead of “What do I need to do to persuade people that my ideas are better than my opponents”.

429 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:34:39am

I’m old-fashioned in some ways, I know, but I guess I think that ideas need to stand or fall on their own merits, and not on how crazy or sane they look in comparison to other ideas.

It’s pretty crazy that time goes more slowly for someone moving faster than I am. It’s even crazier that he can say the same about me, and we can both prove it with clocks and rulers. But it is nonetheless true.

430 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:36:26am

re: #428 Gabriel Hanna

you would probably think that the overton window is too far to the left on some matters.

That’s my whole point. Then I would say “My opponents dragged the window to the left” instead of “What do I need to do to persuade people that my ideas are better than my opponents”.

Well, the point of the Overton Window, and discussing it, is to discover just how one’s opponents succeeded in moving the window—that is, in framing the discourse in such a way as to make their radical opinions look reasonable, and the moderate opinions of the other side look unreasonable.

Understanding the mechanics on how this was done for any particular issue can help the opposition side ‘reframe’ the debate.—and understand how to go about persuading people that they have the better idea.

It’s a sort of meta-analysis, but is supposed to be translated into action.

431 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:39:24am

Well, the point of the Overton Window, and discussing it, is to discover just how one’s opponents succeeded in moving the window—that is, in framing the discourse in such a way as to make their radical opinions look reasonable, and the moderate opinions of the other side look unreasonable.

Instead of arguing on the merits. You assume, without evidence, that the problem is not with your ideas, but with the way your opponents conned the sheeple into thinking they made sense.

I don’t mean you personally, you seem quite reasonable. I’m just saying that the concept is not useful or particularly illuminating.

Rhetoric is an ancient art. Protagoras wouldn’t recognize the name of Overton, but he’d know all about the idea.

432 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:43:53am

Anyway, the thing about persuading people is you have to do it with your eyes open. And you have to remember that they may be smarter than you.

Hitler has a bit in Mein Kampf about propaganda. He thought German WWI propaganda was stupid. They made the British out to be bufoons and cowards, and any front-line soldier, like Hitler, could see that obviously wasn’t true.

He told people things that weren’t true, but they wanted them to be.

The Overton Window seems to be about conning yourself!

433 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:53:43am

This Klinghoffer guy who is the topic of this thread is slowly, I think, figuring this out.

He started out conned himself. He didn’t know anything about Hitler and he certainly doesn’t know much about evolution. He skimmed Mein Kampf to cherry-pick quotes that sound like what he thinks evolution is.

Granted a disturbingly large number of people know nothing more than “Hitler=bad”, and hardly anyone knows much about Darwinian evolution. Compute the intersection of those populations and you get a very small number.

But anyone who does know about evolution knows that the stuff Hitler says does not even remotely resemble what biologists understand the term to me. And anyone who knows about Hitler knows how much time he spent at least paying lip service to Christianity, regardless of what, if anything, he actually believed. Hitler may be one of the most quoted people in history. Using him as the evolution poster boy is a big mistake.

So I think Klinghoffer is backing away without wanting to let on that he is doing so. He found out that a lot of people know a lot more about this than he does.

If he had put the work in, he could put out much more persuasive arguments against evolution. (I don’t say true arguments, I say persuasive ones.)

434 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:55:09am

re: #431 Gabriel Hanna

Instead of arguing on the merits. You assume, without evidence, that the problem is not with your ideas, but with the way your opponents conned the sheeple into thinking they made sense.

I don’t mean you personally, you seem quite reasonable. I’m just saying that the concept is not useful or particularly illuminating.

I’d agree that the Window isn’t useful if one wants to just use it everytime some pet idea is rejected by the public. That’s the opposite of useful. That’s a prescription for clinging to bad policies and ideas rejected by the public. You’re assuming, without evidence, that this is the way it’s always used. It’s not, nor is there any reason to think it would always and only be used that way.

There are different debates going on here: this is one:
1) is the abstract concept ever useful for understanding what happens in political discourse?

I think so. Political scientists think so. It’s just an idea about how to understand the framing of political discourse. (Whether and how it applies to any particular topic is another matter)

2) you have a different kind of objection over the whole notion of framing and bias, which is that ideas ought to stand or fall on their own merits. I think everyone would agree with that; nonetheless, we’re affected by biases and framing all the time, often unconsciously. It’s useful to understand them.

Hope that clarifies.

435 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:56:47am

re: #434 iceweasel

whoops, screwed that up. I’m quoting you in the first two paragraphs, obviously, gabriel hanna. Sorry about that.

436 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:58:27am

Now suppose instead of engaging Klinghoffer on what Hitler really said and what Darwinism is really about, I had used the Overton Window concept, and tried to find people who don’t believe in evolution doing super-crazy things that make even Hitler look even more unacceptable (?!) if that is even possible.

Well, then all his objections would go unanswered. He could rightly point out that I am ignoring facts and talking only about unrelated issues and motivations.

And I would be guilty of the very thing that he’s been doing all along, so I wouldn’t come out better than him, and I’d have given him the ground on the facts.

437 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:03:12am

re: #432 Gabriel Hanna

Anyway, the thing about persuading people is you have to do it with your eyes open. And you have to remember that they may be smarter than you.

Hitler has a bit in Mein Kampf about propaganda. He thought German WWI propaganda was stupid. They made the British out to be bufoons and cowards, and any front-line soldier, like Hitler, could see that obviously wasn’t true.

He told people things that weren’t true, but they wanted them to be.

The Overton Window seems to be about conning yourself!

No, but it is about conning others.

Hitler slowly moved the Overton Window of public discourse all the way over to extermination and genocide. He started out slowly, isolating and persecuting the Jews. He started a euthanasia program, arguing that the handicapped and mentally ill were unworthy of life (germans themselves). Gradually the ideas that the Jews themselves were a cancer on the body politic and needed to be exterminated came to enter the discourse. And each step closer to that goal came to seem plausible, as he kept moving that window.

I’m giving an overly simplified and distorted sketch of what H did above, but you can see what I mean. The idea of extermination and genocide came to seem acceptable to many formerly ordinary people— the ‘ordinary men’ that are talked about in the book by that name.

438 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:06:28am

we’re affected by biases and framing all the time, often unconsciously. It’s useful to understand them.

Of course! This is what Socrates and the Sophists were always going round and round about.

“The new things you have said are not true. The true things you have said are not new”. I forget who said that, and what the context was.

There’s a thing called “dog-whistling”. I participated in the Wikipedia discussion about it. “Dog-whistling” is when you say “federalism” and all the racists know you really mean “keep black people down”, so they vote for you.

Except that there is no evidence that this concept is real. No one has ever shown that there are secret code words that only racists understand, or that politicians deliberately use to appeal to them.

So all the talk about “dog-whistling” is invariably accusations of people engaging in dog-whistling. When you break the argument down it goes like this:

A says word “X”. People who believe in “Y” use “X” as a euphemism for “Z”. People who believe in “Y” are bad people, so don’t listen to A because he is trying to appeal to them….

This Overton Window sounds like more of the same. If political scientists are just talking about 2500-year-old demagoguic tricks, then why do they give it a special name? If it’s not just rhetoric, but a problem with people’s brains, then they dehumanize those they study.

439 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:07:04am

re: #436 Gabriel Hanna

The Overton window isn’t really something that a single individual can shift, except maybe in a totalitarian state where that person is the dictator. It’s about the framing of the public discourse, like by a person or party in power, with the help of the media. It’s not something a single individual does.

440 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:11:31am

Hitler slowly moved the Overton Window of public discourse all the way over to extermination and genocide. He started out slowly, isolating and persecuting the Jews. He started a euthanasia program, arguing that the handicapped and mentally ill were unworthy of life (germans themselves). Gradually the ideas that the Jews themselves were a cancer on the body politic and needed to be exterminated came to enter the discourse. And each step closer to that goal came to seem plausible, as he kept moving that window.

This is all wrong! Aktion T4 was illegal even under Nazi laws! That’s why it was secret! Michael Burleigh has a good discussion in “The Third Reich”.

They did put out propaganda about “defective” people consuming resources needed by the healthy. But killing GERMANS first to get people used to the idea of killing the “racial enemy” is TOTALLY backward. That doesn’t make any sense.

Since the extermination programs were kept as secret as could be, under the circumstances, the concept doesn’t make any sense here.

As far as Hitler’s dictatorship and abolition of democracy, he openly campaigned for it. He didn’t TRICK anyone.

441 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:14:29am

In Mein Kampf, written in 1925, when he was a nobody, he was talking about Jews as a parasite and cancer. EVERYBODY bought that book, though they may not have read it. There was no gradual shifting of frames. He said right in the beginning, quite openly, what he intended to do. Maybe many people didn’t believe him, but they can’t say they couldn’t have found out.

442 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:17:22am

re: #438 Gabriel Hanna

There’s a thing called “dog-whistling”. I participated in the Wikipedia discussion about it. “Dog-whistling” is when you say “federalism” and all the racists know you really mean “keep black people down”, so they vote for you.

Except that there is no evidence that this concept is real. No one has ever shown that there are secret code words that only racists understand, or that politicians deliberately use to appeal to them..

I know what dogwhistling is, and again, it’s an abstract concept, a theory. You’re looking for the wrong kind of proof or verification when you say “No one has ever shown that there are secret code words that only racists understand”. There isn’t some racist decoder ring being handed out by stormfront and the KKK that says “federalism” = “keep black people down”. There isn’t a codebook under Hal Turner’s desk.

There isn’t even any need to suppose that an individual politican is using them deliberately— although some do. Pat Buchanan does, only in his case it’s more like a bullhorn than a dogwhistle.

All that’s necessary is for the racists out there to hear certain words and think they mean something else suggesting support, covert or overt, for their supremacist agenda.

443 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:22:48am

All that’s necessary is for the racists out there to hear certain words and think they mean something else suggesting support, covert or overt, for their supremacist agenda.

Then what is the point of criticising the politician for the dog-whistle? Because that’s what these commentaries do. A leftist criticizes someone on the right for using coded language to appeal to racists, suggesting he’s a racist himself.

And OVERTLY racist organizations, like Die Volk, get a pass for their OVERT racism.

(Oops, there’s a typo. I meant “La Raza”.)

444 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:24:56am

Pat Buchanan does, only in his case it’s more like a bullhorn than a dogwhistle.

EXACTLY my point. But you misunderstand Buchanan. When he talks about the Zionist Occupation of Capitol Hill, he’s being anti-semitic.

When he talks about federalism, he’s talking about federalism.

There’s no “dog-whistle”.

445 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:27:18am

re: #443 Gabriel Hanna


Then what is the point of criticising the politician for the dog-whistle? Because that’s what these commentaries do. A leftist criticizes someone on the right for using coded language to appeal to racists, suggesting he’s a racist himself.

Sometimes that’s done. Not always. And sometimes it’s correct. Not always.

Just because the concept ‘dogwhistle’ might be misapplied by some, is no reason to throw out the entire concept as useless. That’s like saying “Let’s say there are no such things as strawman arguments, because some people occasionally misunderstand the concept and are wrong when they accuse someone of making one.”

446 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:29:24am

re: #444 Gabriel Hanna

Pat Buchanan does, only in his case it’s more like a bullhorn than a dogwhistle.

EXACTLY my point. But you misunderstand Buchanan. When he talks about the Zionist Occupation of Capitol Hill, he’s being anti-semitic.

When he talks about federalism, he’s talking about federalism.

There’s no “dog-whistle”.

That’s the problem with dogwhistles, they’re only audible to some. :)

We’ll have to agree to disagree, I’m afraid. I have to take off. Cheers!

447 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:29:31am

There is something like this on the right—remember during the campaign when Obama said “share the wealth” and Republicans said that’s code for socialist redistribution.

Obama’s welfare-statism is quite open, he doesn’t have secret messages.

Is “dog-whistling” the same as “euphemism”? Then use “euphemism”. But it’s not. It is a form of ad hominem. Secret code words, forsooth.

One commentator thought that Bush was using code words, but all Bush was doing was using Biblical allusions, and the commentator was too ignorant of teh Bible, or Western literature, to understand the difference.

448 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:34:34am

Just because the concept ‘dogwhistle’ might be misapplied by some, is no reason to throw out the entire concept as useless.

Except that nobody can show an actual example of the phenomenon. It’s like the invisible, incorporeal unicorn. It’s a freaking Platonic Form that only philosophers can perceive. Faugh.

The politician can’t be shown to do it on purpose, and you can’t read the racists mind, so where did you learn of this phenomenon? Well, philosopher kings can perceive Forms directly by reason, they don’t EVIDENCE.

449 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:47:48am

I know what dogwhistling is, and again, it’s an abstract concept, a theory. You’re looking for the wrong kind of proof or verification…

My background is physics, and this me this is the antithesis of a theory.

This is, assert something about how people’s minds work, without any evidence whatever, without explaining why you are somehow immune.

I can’t tell you what gravity IS, but I can tell you the evidence for (and against!), how it works, and what would be the case if it was totally wrong (for example, orbits are impossible for all but a few types of force dependence).

You can’t do that with the “dog-whistle”.

450 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:56:55am

That’s the problem with dogwhistles, they’re only audible to some. :)

This is exactly what Karl Popper was talking about. The fact that I don’t accept the concept is proof of its efficacy.

Those who can’t accept Freudian psychology are prevented by their own neuroses, and those who can’t accept Marxism are prevented by their class consciousness. The stars incline me to skepticism, of course, and psychic powers don’t manifest themselves to people who don’t believe in them…

Political science appears to be a bit of a misnomer here.

451 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:25:52am

re: #450 Gabriel Hanna

That’s the problem with dogwhistles, they’re only audible to some. :)

This is exactly what Karl Popper was talking about. The fact that I don’t accept the concept is proof of its efficacy.

Political science appears to be a bit of a misnomer here.

One last comment, and then I really have to go; I’m sorry.

In re: Popper: no one has seriously argued that the fact that you don’t like these concepts is proof of their efficacy.

You mention your background is physics; it seems to me that you probably have a problem with all the ‘soft’ sciences or social sciences: sociology, (some) psychology, … and political theory and political science. I think that’s been in evidence here, especially in re: your misunderstanding of what the Overton window is supposed to be and how it’s supposed to work.

The social sciences aren’t like the hard sciences. They don’t have the same methodologies, standards, or aims. They collect data, but they are interested in theorising beyond the data in a way that science does not. Many (if not all) of these theories aren’t going to be falsifiable a la Popper. (*)
Competing theories in political science, for example, will offer competing worldviews. The social sciences often are about choosing which set of competing lenses to view the world through. It’s not so much about making a specific prediction that can then be falsified, as about providing the theory that best accomodates the data and enables useful patterns of explanation.

That’s why I said you were looking for the wrong kind of proof. You want a certain kind of data and a certain kind of analysis, but these theories are operating on the metalevel.

(*) I anticipate the Popper-esque(**) retort that if they’re not verifiable, then they’re meaningless— and I will note that this same objection applies to the verification principle itself, and that’s why Logical Positivism is dead.

(**) Popper-esque = because Popper himself did not propose that.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

452 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 5:14:37am

your misunderstanding of what the Overton window is supposed to be and how it’s supposed to work.

No, I did understand it. I rejected it. And I gave reasons. Which you never did address. When you tried to give historical examples, I told you why they didn’t apply, and you never answered my objections. You just retreated in “it’s still true and I don’t need to show that it ever actually happens”. Same with the dog-whistling. Or maybe you think it exists in some realm beyond truth or whatever.

Anyway, you think there can’t be anything wrong with the idea—it must be something wrong with me. I said I was in physics and you drew all kinds of conclusions about why I can’t understand what you’re talking about. This is exactly the sort of thing that ideas like the Overton Window lead to.

They collect data, but they are interested in theorising beyond the data in a way that science does not.

If their “theories” say things which cannot even in principle be tested in any way, then to that they extent they may be philosophy or religion, but they cannot be science. Feynman’s essay, “Cargo Cult Science”, may be worth looking up. What’s the point of data and regression analysis if you make hypotheses which can never be addressed by them?

It’s not so much about making a specific prediction that can then be falsified, as about providing the theory that best accomodates the data and enables useful patterns of explanation.

So how do you judge that it “best accomodates the data”? You have something that can be proven less wrong than something else, by appealing to data. Make up your mind. Do you need evidence for the things you say, or not?

Explanations without data abound throughout human history. Leibniz’s monads, for example. It’s the difference between philosophy and science. Decide which you want to be and stick to it.

You want a certain kind of data and a certain kind of analysis, but these theories are operating on the metalevel.

Meaning that you and only you get to decide whether they are any good, according to criteria you refuse to specify. But there’s something wrong with ME for not believing you know what you are talking about.

if they’re not verifiable, then they’re meaningless— and I will note that this same objection applies to the verification principle itself, and that’s why Logical Positivism is dead.

Having read Popper, and others such as David Hume, I have more sense than to make that argument. Popper’s argument was anything that cannot, in principle, be proven false is not science, which is the opposite of the “verification principle”.

So what we are left with is that you have a license to make statements which can only be evaluated according to criteria that only you get to specify, and which you can apparently change whenever you want to. Yet the rest of us are supposed to give respectful weight to these statements.

453 iceweasel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 5:48:06am

re: #452 Gabriel Hanna

No. I’m not making any claims about you as a person, or suggesting that there’s anything wrong with you personally. I’m pointing out that the ‘soft’ sciences and the hard have quite different standards, methodologies, and aims. It is unreasonable to apply the standards of the hard sciences to the soft. It is, in philosophical terms, a category error.

I’m also not claiming that there’s ‘nothing wrong with the idea and it must be something wrong with [you]’. Absolutely not. If I’ve given you that impression, I apologise. I am only pointing out that the specific criticisms you have do not apply— because it’s that category error problem again. You’re drawing from the standards of the hard sciences, and they don’t apply here.

My reference to your physics background was in no way intended as an insult or to draw conclusions about *you* as a person, but only as a springboard to making the observation that the hard sciences do have different standards. There’s a good reason why there are separate degrees for liberal arts and for sciences. They have different methodologies and inculcate different ways of thinking.

We’re arguing past each other, unfortunately, instead of with each other.

BTW, I don’t mean this as an insult and I don’t want to dig in on this issue, but it’s clear that early on you didn’t get the concept of the Overton Window. You thought it was something an ‘individual’ could apply, and made some observations about Klinghoffer. It’s not.

Then you thought it was about deceiving oneself, and made some observations about Hitler. Also not true; it’s about public discourse, not private.

That’s partly why I haven’t engaged you on the points about Hitler.

I will say this:

So what we are left with is that you have a license to make statements which can only be evaluated according to criteria that only you get to specify, and which you can apparently change whenever you want to. Yet the rest of us are supposed to give respectful weight to these statements.

That’s unfair, uncalled for, and a complete distortion of what I have actually said.

I hope you’ll consider retracting that, in light of what I’ve actually said. Perhaps you won’t, but then you can hardly blame me if I choose not to respond.

BTW, I’m not slavishly wedded to the concepts of the Overton Window and the dogwhistle. There are good criticisms to be made of each. You just haven’t made them yet, because you’re applying the wrong standards and engaging on the wrong level.

454 Land Shark  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 7:13:52am

Wow, I dated a girl who’s father was a Baptist Minister back when I was in the Air Force who said something to that effect. I recall having a hard time keeping a straight face when he said it. His daughter was a bit of a wild one, we had a great time though. If he’d know how good a time we had he would have condemned me to the straight to that same pit of hell. Heh, heh.

Considering that was about 30 years ago, it’s amazing to think how little things change.

455 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 7:20:36am

The idea that there is such a thing as Darwinism is the lie.

There are no religious services to honor Darwin, nothing about the theory of evolution that offers salvation or damnation of the human soul, nothing that even attempts to address the human soul in any way.

It’s about as accurate as calling Christianity “The Theory of Christ”.

456 Gabriel Hanna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 8:03:24am

You thought it was something an ‘individual’ could apply, and made some observations about Klinghoffer. It’s not.

The way you described it, it sounded like a strategy used by a movement. You linked to specific examples of think tanks and abortion opponents and Milton Friedman. Of course an individual could apply it, if he headed an organization and was Macchiavellian. You gave specifically an example of HITLER doing it. Was he not an individual?

Is it supposed to be something people do and don’t know they do it? I think I have good reason to be suspicious of arguments of this type and you haven’t given me reasons to change my opinion.

There are good criticisms to be made of each. You just haven’t made them yet, because you’re applying the wrong standards and engaging on the wrong level.

And you still haven’t said what these standards ARE, and the “metalevel” is apparently the level you were talking about, whatever that’s supposed to mean.

My sister has a B.S. in sociology. Some places treat it as science.

Look, I didn’t mean to say anything unfair. She and I used to go round and round on these things. You seem like a nice and reasonable person, I just think you’re wrong.

I certainly don’t expect you to spend any more time on this than you want to. Me, I had stuff going on all night.

457 rwielaard  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:17:07am

Aw shucks, folks…what am I gonna say to Cousin Cheetah the next time she visits!?!


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 61 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 days ago
Views: 163 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1