LGF

 RetweetSarkozy Disses Burqa

World | Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:02:26 pm PDT

French President Nicolas Sarkozy is right in his analysis of the Islamic garment known as the burqa or niqab; while there are a few women who wear this clothing of their own free will, most of the time the burqa is a symbol of extreme fundamentalism and subjugation of women: Sarkozy says burqas are ‘not welcome’ in France.

PARIS – President Nicolas Sarkozy declared Monday that the Islamic burqa is not welcome in France, branding the face-covering, body-length gown as a symbol of subservience that suppresses women’s identities and turns them into “prisoners behind a screen.”

But there was a mixed message in the tough words: an admission that the country’s long-held principle of ethnic assimilation — which insists that newcomers shed their traditions and adapt to French culture — is failing because it doesn’t give immigrants and their French-born children a fair chance.

In a high-profile speech to lawmakers in the historic chateau at Versailles, Sarkozy said the head-to-toe Muslim body coverings were in disaccord with French values — some of the strongest language against burqas from a European leader at a time when some Western officials have been seeking to ease tensions with the Muslim world.

“In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity,” Sarkozy said to extended applause of the lawmakers gathered where French kings once held court.

“The burqa is not a religious sign, it’s a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly,” he said. “It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic.”

Where the French get it very wrong, though, is in the idea that they can ban and legislate these misogynistic power symbols out of existence.

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1 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:04:29pm

The burqa will go, but the misogyny behind it will remain.

2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:05:08pm

The French need to learn how to be more nuanced.

/BHO mode

3 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:05:19pm

Who would have thought a few short years ago that we would be looking to the French as an example of a country with a leader with balls.

4 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:05:19pm

stupid move I think...nothing wrong with the friggin burqa itself

5 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:06:15pm

first they came for the burqa...

6 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:06:30pm

re: #4 albusteve

stupid move I think...nothing wrong with the friggin burqa itself

Yes there is something wrong with it. It's debilitating, and unhealthy. It's a control mechanism to foster misogyny.

7 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:06:51pm

Sarkozy receives death threats in 3..2..1..

8 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:07:46pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Yes there is something wrong with it. It's debilitating, and unhealthy. It's a control mechanism to foster misogyny.

legislate against misogyny then...you can't tell people what to wear

9 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:07:52pm

re: #7 DEZes

Sarkozy receives death threats in 3..2..1..

The "restless" youths will show their "displeasure" with a few hundred car-b-ques soon.

10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:08:48pm

Assassination in Pakistan exposes Taliban rifts

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) — The assassination of the leader of a renegade Pakistani Taliban faction by one of his own men Tuesday underscores a growing rift in the ranks of the militant group as it braces for an impending army assault in the volatile northwest.

Qari Zainuddin's killing sets back government hopes of exploiting these internal divisions in the South Waziristan tribal region, where the army has been pounding strongholds of Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud in apparent preparation for a major, U.S.-backed offensive.

Suspected U.S. missiles also hammered the same areas Tuesday, striking a purported Taliban training center and then a funeral procession for some of those killed in the earlier attack. Up to 40 people were killed — including Sangeen Khan, a top aide to Mehsud — and 60 more wounded, said two intelligence officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because it would compromise their jobs.

11 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:08:56pm

Death to the burqua!

12 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:01pm

re: #8 albusteve

legislate against misogyny then...you can't tell people what to wear

I think he is telling them what not to wear. Come to think of it, that would make an interesting edition to TLC channels EU line-up./

13 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:17pm

women should feel safe not wearing a burqa as well

14 dhg4  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:20pm

It's been suggested that this is a rebuke to President Obama who claimed that the burqa was a symbol of freedom.

15 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:23pm

...that's burqa...

16 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:31pm

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The French need to learn how to be more nuanced.

/BHO mode

How many ways are there to drop a gun and run?

17 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:34pm
18 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:51pm

First they'll get the burqas and next they'll come for the fries.
/

19 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:51pm

re: #8 albusteve

legislate against misogyny then...you can't tell people what to wear

I didn't say I thought the French solution was good or that it would work. I responded to you in that there is nothing wrong with a burqa. There absolutely is.

20 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:09:56pm

re: #14 dhg4

It's been suggested that this is a rebuke to President Obama who claimed that the burqa was a symbol of freedom.

Obama didn't do that did he?

21 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:10:06pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Yes there is something wrong with it. It's debilitating, and unhealthy. It's a control mechanism to foster misogyny.

That's what I've heard about thong underwear.

22 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:10:21pm

No hat tip?

*sniff sniff*

23 DaddyG  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:10:27pm

Danish cartoonists will have to be especially careful how they portray the Sarkozy Burqa issue. One lapse in judgement and there could be 360 degree seething.

24 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:10:35pm

Do Muslims eat Hamburqas?

25 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:10:46pm
26 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:10:58pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

I didn't say I thought the French solution was good or that it would work. I responded to you in that there is nothing wrong with a burqa. There absolutely is.

yes, I see that...point taken

27 GORDON MAROCK  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:11:02pm

I think that Charles is right about wheter the Burqa can or should be banned outright. As long as someone wishes to wear it freely, they should have the right to do so. Sarkozy should enforce laws that prohibit face covering at places such as airports and while driving, but he should focus on exposing the problems with radical islam without an outright ban.

28 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:11:06pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

I didn't say I thought the French solution was good or that it would work. I responded to you in that there is nothing wrong with a burqa. There absolutely is.

I cant wear a mask in Indiana.

29 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:11:15pm

re: #14 dhg4

He really said that? I'm surprised Michelle didn't freak out.

30 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:11:15pm

I recall reading somewhere (sorry no link) that Candian women who wear this garment have high incidences of cases of rickets. There is a health reason to NOT constantly remain covered, and therefore risk your health by not getting enough sun so that your body can manufacture your Vitamin D.

31 DaddyG  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:11:19pm

re: #21 Spare O'Lake

That's what I've heard about thong underwear.

...but my dentist recommends flossing regularly. /

32 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:11:22pm

I wonder what Sarkozy's wife wears to bed at night? Actually i dream about it, but that's for another day.

33 HelloDare  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:11:32pm

Women could endanger their health by wearing burqas

Medical experts in the West warn that Islamic women wearing these all-encompassing burqas in the northerly climates, which have far less sunshine, suffer much more from osteoporosis due to a lack of Vitamin D.
The garments don't let through enough sunshine. And their newborn babies are prone to getting more seizures for the same reason.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:11:46pm

re: #8 albusteve

legislate against misogyny then...you can't tell people what to wear

This is the same instinct that causes the French to ban yarmulkes in the public schools. Banning the burqa will not free women, it will probably mean that those whose families can't accept them leaving it off will be trapped at home.

But I think it's mostly about the French need to insist on assimilation. That insistance comes with promises, most of which haven't been kept in the case of the French Jewish community.

35 Lee Coller  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:12:23pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Yes there is something wrong with it. It's debilitating, and unhealthy. It's a control mechanism to foster misogyny.

Exactly, the Burka and its kin is what leads to the concept of "uncovered meat."

36 wiffersnapper  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:12:23pm

I can't imagine obama ever passing a resolution like this, unfortunately. Good for Sarkozy.

37 dhg4  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:12:24pm

re: #20 Nevergiveup

Obama didn't do that did he?

I got that a little wrong. It wasn't the burqa. Sorry.

Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one's religion. That is why there is a mosque in every state of our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab, and to punish those who would deny it.

38 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:12:29pm

re: #24 LGoPs


Didn't you eat lunch?

39 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:12:30pm

What does he mean by 'burqa' BTW? Is this as distinct from a chador?

40 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:12:55pm

re: #25 buzzsawmonkey

If thong underwear disappeared, it would be no great floss.

When thong underwear disappear, it's time to go on a diet.

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:13:13pm

re: #13 albusteve

women should feel safe not wearing a burqa as well

Damn straight.

42 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:13:16pm

re: #37 dhg4

Actually pretty close

43 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:13:19pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

chador?

Fish puns are one thread over/

Goodnight all.

44 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:13:47pm

re: #30 Crimsonfisted

I recall reading somewhere (sorry no link) that Candian women who wear this garment have high incidences of cases of rickets. There is a health reason to NOT constantly remain covered, and therefore risk your health by not getting enough sun so that your body can manufacture your Vitamin D.

Yes- it's unhealthy. It's also debilitating and inhibits a woman's movements, increasing her risk of accidents.

45 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:13:53pm

re: #40 Spare O'Lake

When thong underwear disappear, it's time to go on a diet.


You need an alert for that kind of comment.

I NEED BRAIN BLEACH, STAT!
:)

46 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:13:53pm

re: #40 Spare O'Lake

When thong underwear disappear, it's time to go on a diet.

Brain bleach.

47 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:14:17pm

re: #38 Maui Girl

Didn't you eat lunch?

I could go for some fajitwas right about now...

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:14:46pm

re: #37 dhg4

That's an issue of religious freedom, and I think Obama's perfectly correct on that one.

49 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:15:24pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

What does he mean by 'burqa' BTW? Is this as distinct from a chador?

The burqa is the full length covering from head to foot including the face. The chador is from head to waist, but the face is uncovered unless the woman includes a niqab. Hijab is just a head covering.

50 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:15:30pm

BBL

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:15:54pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

Yes- it's unhealthy. It's also debilitating and inhibits a woman's movements, increasing her risk of accidents.

One could say the same of six-inch heels, which are also degrading to women. That's how come I don't wear them!

52 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:16:23pm

remember the picture of the tourists in their identical, slit eyed burqas all lined up for a photograph?...chilling

53 DaddyG  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:16:35pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

What does he mean by 'burqa' BTW? Is this as distinct from a chador?

I believe what Sarkozy was referring to was the head to toe covering with a mesh screen that completely blocks the woman from view. Not the less restrictive head and body coverings.

54 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:16:38pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

Yes- it's unhealthy. It's also debilitating and inhibits a woman's movements, increasing her risk of accidents.

I think the appropriate video to go with this thread would be the amazing women in burqas and their cop-like exploits that we had a year or so ago. hmm, wonder if i can find it?

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:16:38pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

The burqa is the full length covering from head to foot including the face. The chador is from head to waist, but the face is uncovered unless the woman includes a niqab. Hijab is just a head covering.

Is the burqa the sole garment Sarkozy's talking about?

56 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:16:41pm

re: #20 Nevergiveup

Obama didn't do that did he?

Obama, in his Cairo speech, criticized those who would ban the burka. Not the burka itself, though, or a culture that would hide its women in bags.

57 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:16:47pm
58 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:16:51pm

re: #40 Spare O'Lake

Some people who wear thong underwear NEED to go on a diet.

59 jantjepietje  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:17:17pm

May I note that there is a distinct difference between a burqa and a niqab
a bura is like a tent it is made out of 1 piece of cloth and has a little mesh thingy for the eyes
example:
[Link: danedegenhardt.files.wordpress.com...]

a niqab is made out of multiple parts witch you have to put on in a certain order etc you can stil see the eyes with a niqab
example:
[Link: muhajabat.files.wordpress.com...]

60 RalphShort  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:17:33pm

The ban, as I understand it is restricted to wearing it in public. If they want to wander around their house all covered up, head to toe, they can do that. Sarkozy is right in my book. If they want to wear it in public they should go back to the middle east. I guess the french are finally understanding what liberal types mean by diversity.

61 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:17:40pm

re: #52 albusteve

remember the picture of the tourists in their identical, slit eyed burqas all lined up for a photograph?...chilling


Otherwise known as the most useless photograph evah? Why YES.

62 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:17:48pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

What does he mean by 'burqa' BTW? Is this as distinct from a chador?

The Chador and the abaya do not cover up the face.

The burqa and the niqab hide the face and only allow a mesh or a slit to see out of.

63 DaddyG  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:18:03pm

re: #58 Maui Girl

Some people who wear thong underwear NEED to go on a diet.


All people who wear thong underwear are well advised to own a crochet hook.

64 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:18:21pm

re: #56 Kosh's Shadow

Obama, in his Cairo speech, criticized those who would ban the burka. Not the burka itself, though, or a culture that would hide its women in bags.

Sarkozy must really hate Obama, I think.

65 LatinGent  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:18:35pm

Sarkozy bans the Burqa? Too small a step. If he would like France to be French again he`ll have to do more than that.

66 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:18:42pm

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

One could say the same of six-inch heels, which are also degrading to women. That's how come I don't wear them!

Indeed. Imagine if we were forced to wear them against our will.

If a French muslim woman honestly wishes to wear a full length burqa of her own volition, I don't think she should be stopped. The problem is, they usually have the decision made for them. The French would be better off educating the female muslim population in France what their rights are and who to contact if they're in jeopardy.

67 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:19:53pm

re: #66 Sharmuta

Indeed. Imagine if we were forced to wear them against our will.

If a French muslim woman honestly wishes to wear a full length burqa of her own volition, I don't think she should be stopped. The problem is, they usually have the decision made for them. The French would be better off educating the female muslim population in France what their rights are and who to contact if they're in jeopardy.

and the 'men' as well...sort of a nationwide oblique threat

68 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:19:56pm

re: #54 Crimsonfisted

I think the appropriate video to go with this thread would be the amazing women in burqas and their cop-like exploits that we had a year or so ago. hmm, wonder if i can find it?

The Burqa Blue music video?

69 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:20:04pm

re: #66 Sharmuta

Indeed. Imagine if we were forced to wear them against our will.

If a French muslim woman honestly wishes to wear a full length burqa of her own volition, I don't think she should be stopped. The problem is, they usually have the decision made for them. The French would be better off educating the female muslim population in France what their rights are and who to contact if they're in jeopardy.

The problem of banning the burqa, is that these women will become prisoners in their homes, since they are not allowed to go out of the house without a complete body bag.

70 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:20:55pm

re: #69 Alouette

The problem of banning the burqa, is that these women will become prisoners in their homes, since they are not allowed to go out of the house without a complete body bag.

call the cops then...face reality

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:21:10pm

Much as I would love to stick around and chat about ladies' attire, I gotta run--my first job is over, and my second job is calling to me from across the Bay.

But for your consideration, a weird trend from the past year or so:

Orthodox Jewish women in Israel, in apparently Muslim-inspired clothing.

My great-grandmother would have blinked a lot.

72 American Sabra  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:21:27pm

I fear what will happen if the burqa is banned in public is that the men won't let their women outside, period. Don't they wear regular clothes in the home?

73 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:21:29pm

re: #68 SharmutaI was thinking of the one with the women(?) scaling the walls, executing cop maneuveurs, proving somehow that they were trained to be police types. In burqas.

74 jantjepietje  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:21:33pm

btw the burqa was already technically banned
completely covering your face in public was already illegal because of terrorism/crime
wearing a balaclava for example gets you the order to remove it and a warning or worse in almost any european country

75 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:21:59pm

re: #68 Sharmuta

the Fender creeps me waaayyy out...

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:22:04pm

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

Is it degrading to women to wear six-inch heels if you happen to be a man?

If you mean is it degrading to women for a man to wear six-inch heels, I don't know. Is the man parodying women? He is, however, in danger of breaking his ankle.

77 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:22:17pm

In 1952, just after he received his big break at CBS in New York, McMahon was recalled into the Corps and sent to the Korean War where he flew 85 missions in the Cessna OE Bird Dog spotting artillery, according to the museum.

Though his celebrity status continued to rise upon his return to the States, McMahon remained active in the Marine Reserve and eventually retired as a full-bird colonel in 1966.

[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

never knew that about him

78 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:22:20pm

re: #69 Alouette

What amazes me is that these women would even WANT to go back home once they're out the door.

79 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:22:37pm

re: #64 Nevergiveup

Sarkozy must really hate Obama, I think.

I am sure he is not alone. I imagine Merkel does too.

80 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:23:26pm

re: #79 Crimsonfisted

I am sure he is not alone. I imagine Merkel does too.

That has been widely reported

81 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:23:47pm

re: #78 Maui Girl

What amazes me is that these women would even WANT to go back home once they're out the door.

They are afraid they will be hunted down and honor-killed if they attempt to leave.

82 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:23:56pm
83 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:24:05pm

re: #69 Alouette

The problem of banning the burqa, is that these women will become prisoners in their homes, since they are not allowed to go out of the house without a complete body bag.

As I said at #1- the burqa would be gone, the misogyny would remain.

84 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:24:17pm

May Ed rest in peace.

85 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:24:19pm

re: #70 albusteve

call the cops then...face reality

If France doesn't have a good system for protecting Muslim women from abusive husbands/fathers/brothers/sons, they need to put one in place before they start cracking down on the burqa. It's fine to encourage women to throw off this symbol of oppression, but you have to be there to protect them from the consequences.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:24:22pm

re: #73 Crimsonfisted

I was thinking of the one with the women(?) scaling the walls, executing cop maneuveurs, proving somehow that they were trained to be police types. In burqas.

Back whem women were first part of the California sheriff's departments, the field costume included a straight skirt. Frankly, the burqa sounds easier to go over a fence in.

Cops in burqas. It has a sort of ring to it.

87 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:24:34pm

re: #72 American Sabra

I fear what will happen if the burqa is banned in public is that the men won't let their women outside, period. Don't they wear regular clothes in the home?

I imagine they wear thongs and bikini bras under their burkas. Then when they get home...it's party time!

88 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:24:36pm

re: #8 albusteve

legislate against misogyny then...you can't tell people what to wear

I dunno, seems like there might be a public order reason. In the West, aside from Halloween, the only people who cover their faces are criminals. Would someone walking down the street here in Albuquerque wearing a ski mask in summer get hassled? If they walked into a bank, would people be concerned?

A general ban is probably a bad idea, but you could require them off for a driver's license, or in fact for any official conversations (ie: disallowed in any government facility, including schools, or public transport).

Maybe they could require swimming lessons for all teenagers, and make them all be topless. Debauch them all, in effect. :)

89 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:24:38pm

When do the riots in Paris start, BTW?

90 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:24:59pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Much as I would love to stick around and chat about ladies' attire, I gotta run--my first job is over, and my second job is calling to me from across the Bay.

But for your consideration, a weird trend from the past year or so:

Orthodox Jewish women in Israel, in apparently Muslim-inspired clothing.

My great-grandmother would have blinked a lot.

That's creepy. I don't remember anything like that when I lived in Mea Shearim years ago.

91 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:25:24pm

re: #81 Alouette

Aren't there shelters like Women Helping Women in Europe now precisely for that reason. If the lady wants to leave, she has a place to hide?

92 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:25:56pm

re: #85 doppelganglander

My thoughts exactly.

93 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:26:05pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Back whem women were first part of the California sheriff's departments, the field costume included a straight skirt. Frankly, the burqa sounds easier to go over a fence in.

Cops in burqas. It has a sort of ring to it.

There was an episode of "Reno 911!" in which Raneesha and Jonesy joined the Nation of Islam and Raneesha adopted the hijab. As I recall, hilarity ensued.

94 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:26:18pm

re: #91 Maui Girl

Aren't there shelters like Women Helping Women in Europe now precisely for that reason. If the lady wants to leave, she has a place to hide?

How would they find out about such places?

95 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:26:46pm

23:48 U.S. Holocaust museum shooting suspect not well enough to appear in court (AP

I'd drag his sorry ass in anyway

96 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:27:09pm

re: #95 Nevergiveup

23:48 U.S. Holocaust museum shooting suspect not well enough to appear in court (AP

I'd drag his sorry ass in anyway

I'll help you.

97 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:27:10pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Back whem women were first part of the California sheriff's departments, the field costume included a straight skirt. Frankly, the burqa sounds easier to go over a fence in.

Cops in burqas. It has a sort of ring to it.

Not if you watch the video. They could scale down a wall, but I didn't see one of them going over anything. I wish I could remember the catchy title Charles had for that thread.

98 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:27:29pm

re: #94 Alouette

How would they find out about such places?

Public service announcements on Arabic-language television? Ads on bus shelters? I'm sure there would be a vandalism problem with the latter, but the effort should be made.

99 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:27:40pm

23:17 Madonna to take new daughter to Western Wall (Haaretz)

She is a child not a new dress, take her home Madonna?

100 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:27:52pm

re: #95 Nevergiveup

23:48 U.S. Holocaust museum shooting suspect not well enough to appear in court (AP

I'd drag his sorry ass in anyway

Would I be banned if I said I hope he reaches room temperature very soon?

/

101 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:28:03pm

i hate the fcking burqua.
its purpose is to make women invisible.
non-existent.
most women in today's society would not wear it unless forced to.
those who do wear it by choice are often militant and doing so to make a political statement.
i agree w/ sarkozy. get rid of it.

102 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:28:18pm

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

I'll help you.

Not sure I'd want to implicate you in what I would have in mind.

103 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:28:59pm

re: #101 nyc redneck

i hate the fcking burqua.
its purpose is to make women invisible.
non-existent.
most women in today's society would not wear it unless forced to.
those who do wear it by choice are often militant and doing so to make a political statement.
i agree w/ sarkozy. get rid of it.

Remember that moonbat in Florida who wanted to wear a niqab for her driver's license photo?

104 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:29:01pm

re: #99 Nevergiveup

23:17 Madonna to take new daughter to Western Wall (Haaretz)

She is a child not a new dress, take her home Madonna?


The poor kid just endured a flight from Malawi to L.A. I hate Madonna with a fiery passion for the way she thinks she can buy children like handbags.

105 eon  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:29:04pm
But there was a mixed message in the tough words: an admission that the country's long-held principle of ethnic assimilation- which insists that newcomers shed their traditions and adapt to French culture- is failing because it doesn't give immigrants and their French-born children a fair chance.

Basically true, but (playing advocatus diaboli) I'd have to point out that while mainstream Muslims may be in the mood to "adapt" and "assimilate", the Islamists among them are determined to conquer. And part of that is preventing anyone else in their community from adopting "non-Islamic" ways.

After all, for the most part, they're the ones enforcing the principles of shari'a, including the burqa, on their co-religionists, in France as in the Islamic world itself, for the purpose of "keeping everybody in line". Whether the rest of the people in that community want to be subject to same or not.

In this respect, it's highly probable that the various car-b-ques done by the "youths" in the banlieus are intended to intimidate their own neighbors at least as much as they are to intimidate the French authorities. In much the same way that the Bloods, Crips, MS-13, etc., over here commit violence in their communities to ensure that nobody "collaborates" with the police to their detriment.

/just IMHO

cheers

eon

106 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:29:42pm

re: #104 doppelganglander

The poor kid just endured a flight from Malawi to L.A. I hate Madonna with a fiery passion for the way she thinks she can buy children like handbags.

If she doesn't buy 'em, their parents will just sell 'em to Brad and Angelina.

107 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:29:57pm

re: #64 Nevergiveup

Sarkozy must really hate Obama, I think.

i think he considers o a fool. and probably not worth hating.
i'm sure he looks down on him.
iirc, sarkozy has described o as shallow.

108 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:29:58pm

re: #94 Alouette

Women helping women, the organization is listed in the phone book. Just no address or way of tracking the location by reversing the phone number to address. They come pick you up. Or you are taken there by the local law enforcement I think, if it's a case of domestic abuse, etc. I'm not sure. I just donate clothes from my shop to them.

109 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:30:32pm

Charles,

Where the French get it very wrong, though, is in the idea that they can ban and legislate these mysogynistic power symbols out of existence.

Banning the burqas out of existence based on the justification that the repressive and misogynistic mentality they embody is very wrong. But legitimate public safety considerations exist for banning the burqa in public -- and they have got nothing to do with French values (and the proposal that all immigrants must conform thereto). Recognizable identity affords certain bona fides to everyday commerce and basic social interactions, that could be subverted by people reserving themselves the prerogative to act anonymously in public. Bank robberies and terrorist acts come to mind. I am in favor of banning the burqa in urban areas, but not for Sarkozy's professed reasons.

110 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:31:03pm

re: #108 Maui Girl

Women helping women, the organization is listed in the phone book. Just no address or way of tracking the location by reversing the phone number to address. They come pick you up. Or you are taken there by the local law enforcement I think, if it's a case of domestic abuse, etc. I'm not sure. I just donate clothes from my shop to them.

You're assuming these women can read.

111 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:31:17pm

re: #109 medaura18586

I tend to agree with you on that one.

112 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:31:21pm

re: #102 Nevergiveup

Not sure I'd want to implicate you in what I would have in mind.

No problem.

113 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:31:56pm

re: #104 doppelganglander

The poor kid just endured a flight from Malawi to L.A. I hate Madonna with a fiery passion for the way she thinks she can buy children like handbags.

She's trying to compete with Angelina Jolie.

114 Racer X  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:32:08pm
115 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:32:45pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

The only problem being that the women will in fact simply become imprisoned in their homes. What needs to be banned are the Muslim men, lol. ;)

116 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:32:54pm

re: #103 Alouette

Remember that moonbat in Florida who wanted to wear a niqab for her driver's license photo?

Yea, didn't work out so well, did it? IIRC, the brand of Islam she followed didn't allow women to drive anyways.

117 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:33:15pm

re: #103 Alouette

Remember that moonbat in Florida who wanted to wear a niqab for her driver's license photo?

was she the one who had a rap sheet a mile long and didn't want to be recognized?

118 itellu3times  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:33:44pm

re: #58 Maui Girl

Some people who wear thong underwear NEED to go on a diet.

Some people who need to go on a diet, would look much better in a burqa.

119 turn  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:33:57pm

re: #74 jantjepietje

What country are you from? Hey, who broke LGF earlier? I couldn't log on for quite a while. You have to admire Sarkozy a bit on this one, he is taking a risk because riots might break out over this. Charles is right, legislating a ban won't change the culture and could quite possibly lead to a honor killing or two. Oh dang the day flew by and I don't have time to wait for a response jant (where the heck did you get that nic anyway?) Oh well, time to go walk the lab along the American. Later all.

120 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:33:58pm

re: #110 Alouette

You're assuming these women can read.

They could advertise the old fashioned way. Word of mouth. Slip a note under the burqa?

121 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:33:58pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

I tend to agree with you on that one.

Plates are mandated for cars for similar reasons. Police identify suspects in pursuit by their physical characteristics: e.g., male, Caucasian, mid twenties, 6' 2''. Anyone can hide behind a burqa and wreak havoc.

122 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:34:01pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Much as I would love to stick around and chat about ladies' attire, I gotta run--my first job is over, and my second job is calling to me from across the Bay.

But for your consideration, a weird trend from the past year or so:

Orthodox Jewish women in Israel, in apparently Muslim-inspired clothing.

My great-grandmother would have blinked a lot.

Orthodox Jewish women do dress modestly, but they can still be attractive. You'll find they wear wigs, for example.
And here's what happens when Jewish women try to create modest swim attire. Not exactly a burkini.
(And they sell well to goyim, too - one article says dive shops and surfboard shops sell a lot of their clothes)

123 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:34:47pm

re: #117 nyc redneck

was she the one who had a rap sheet a mile long and didn't want to be recognized?

Sultaana Freeman

124 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:34:48pm

re: #121 medaura18586

But again, the women will simply not be allowed to leave the house by their male family.

125 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:35:13pm

The europeans solutions to problems is to ban things- like neo-nazi political parties and not-so-very-nice speech like Holocaust denial. This never solves anything, however. The nazis change their rhetoric and form a new party. Outlawing Holocaust denial doesn't stop anti-Semitism. And banning burqas will not stop islamic misogyny.

126 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:35:38pm

re: #122 Kosh's Shadow

Orthodox Jewish women do dress modestly, but they can still be attractive. You'll find they wear wigs, for example.
And here's what happens when Jewish women try to create modest swim attire. Not exactly a burkini.
(And they sell well to goyim, too - one article says dive shops and surfboard shops sell a lot of their clothes)

Well, except I wouldn't wear a sheitel to go swimming.

127 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:35:43pm

OT, and moving backwards ...

Did anyone notice that Obama avoided answering Nico Pitney's question-from-Iran?

/avoided it like the plague

128 eon  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:36:20pm

re: #114 Racer X

40+ Essential Front End Web Developer Cheat Sheets

Is that "more than forty cheat sheets" or "essential cheat sheets for anybody over 40 who has a hard time getting past 'enter password' and/or 'press enter'?"

/If the latter, I probably need it; if the former, I probably won't be able to understand it.

cheers

eon

129 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:36:30pm

Would a guy from Papua New Guinea get in trouble in the US for walking around in nothing but a penis shield?

130 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:36:36pm

re: #4 albusteve

stupid move I think...nothing wrong with the friggin burqa itself

Huh?

131 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:37:12pm

re: #126 Alouette

Well, except I wouldn't wear a sheitel to go swimming.

Yes, I combined the two into one post and I should have been clearer.
(sheitel = wig for our non-Jewish lizards)

132 Maui Girl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:37:18pm

re: #122 Kosh's Shadow

Just another version of the rashguard and board shorts they've been wearing in Hawaii for years.

133 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:37:37pm

re: #125 Sharmuta

And banning burqas will not stop islamic misogyny.

No, it won't stop it. But it sends the needed message that your 7th century barbarism is not acceptable here.

134 avanti  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:37:38pm

re: #107 nyc redneck

i think he considers o a fool. and probably not worth hating.
i'm sure he looks down on him.
iirc, sarkozy has described o as shallow.

You must be joking, don't you recall Sarkozy falling all over himself trying to get pictures with Obama. He got a lot of flack for his fawning over BHO.

135 Alouette  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:37:46pm

re: #129 spudly

Would a guy from Papua New Guinea get in trouble in the US for walking around in nothing but a penis shield?

Depends on where in the U.S. Buffalo in December would not be a good idea. The Folsom Street Fair nobody would notice or care.

136 jantjepietje  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:38:14pm

re: #124 spudly

But again, the women will simply not be allowed to leave the house by their male family.


The alternative is that you would let a safety hazard exist
In Afghanistan burqas were the perfect way for young men doing something illegal

137 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:38:22pm

How did the culture that developed belly dancing come up with the Burqua?

138 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:38:24pm

re: #106 Alouette

If she doesn't buy 'em, their parents will just sell 'em to Brad and Angelina.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of their juvenile purchasing program, either. But I will say they are very generous in the causes they support. Also,

Angelina lets little Maddox play with toy guns and knives, so she gets a qualified thumbs up for that.

139 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:38:41pm

re: #124 spudly

But again, the women will simply not be allowed to leave the house by their male family.

At my university in Canada I saw a lot of women in burqas. They clearly left the family, even went to university, and got around fine. But no one could see their faces and they freaked me out. I can understand being tolerant of the hijab, because while a symbol of subjugation, it is at least devoid of negative externalities. But no one knew who was behind these burqa clad students. I'm curious what the procedure for them was during exams, when the rest of us had to show photo ID to ensure we hadn't sent in a proficient friend to write an exam for us. Do they have to reveal their faces to the TA inspector? I doubt it. In any case, they could go Columbine if they wanted to, run away, shed their cloaks, and get away with it.

140 Catttt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:38:55pm

OT - not burqua-related. I love this song. It's my favorite Steven Tyler song, but I like this version - gulp - better!

141 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:39:19pm

re: #137 karmic_inquisitor

How did the culture that developed belly dancing come up with the Burqua?

It didn't.
Two cultures.

142 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:39:39pm

re: #136 jantjepietje

I'm not disagreeing, I pointed out the public safety issue myself in post #88, actually. I'm simply being pragmatic about what the end result would be for women.

143 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:39:40pm

re: #132 Maui Girl

Just another version of the rashguard and board shorts they've been wearing in Hawaii for years.

But better than a burkini.

144 jantjepietje  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:40:03pm

re: #119 turn

What country are you from?


The Netherlands but I travel a lot through Europe

145 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:40:13pm

re: #122 Kosh's Shadow

Orthodox Jewish women do dress modestly, but they can still be attractive. You'll find they wear wigs, for example.
And here's what happens when Jewish women try to create modest swim attire. Not exactly a burkini.
(And they sell well to goyim, too - one article says dive shops and surfboard shops sell a lot of their clothes)

That's not bad at all. I would actually consider it for the UV protection. The swimsuit I'm planning to order from Land's End offers 50 SPF, but it doesn't cover a whole lot.

146 KenJen  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:41:38pm

It would be interesting to walk around Louisville in a burqua for a day to see what it is like. Probably would not go over so well.

147 horse  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:41:41pm
Where the French get it very wrong, though, is in the idea that they can ban and legislate these misogynistic power symbols out of existence.

Indeed, the best way to defeating misogynistic power is expanding liberty, not curtailing it with clothing bans. They need to bring liberty to the oppressed women via community outreach efforts, and then protect them when they decide to escape their oppressors. Having a president "call it what it is" is a helpful beginning.

148 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:42:06pm

re: #134 avanti

You must be joking, don't you recall Sarkozy falling all over himself trying to get pictures with Obama. He got a lot of flack for his fawning over BHO.

No your wrong, He doesn't think to much of our new Savior

149 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:43:05pm

re: #134 avanti

You must be joking, don't you recall Sarkozy falling all over himself trying to get pictures with Obama. He got a lot of flack for his fawning over BHO.

Are you sure that wasnt you?

150 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:43:08pm

re: #27 GORDON MAROCK

I think that Charles is right about wheter the Burqa can or should be banned outright. As long as someone wishes to wear it freely, they should have the right to do so. Sarkozy should enforce laws that prohibit face covering at places such as airports and while driving, but he should focus on exposing the problems with radical islam without an outright ban.

I'm unable to believe anyone would willingly wear those tents.

151 eon  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:44:02pm

re: #141 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It didn't.
Two cultures.

Correct. Bar shaqri, or "Oriental dance", is actually Babylonian in origin, and is definitely not approved of in the more "tradionalist" Islamic culture.

Belly dance

This explains why Jeannie was a trained belly dancer, while not being a Muslim (refer to our thread on I Dream of Jeannie a while back). The dance, like Jeannie, is considerably older than Islam.

cheers

eon

152 haakondahl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:45:46pm

re: #125 Sharmuta

The europeans solutions to problems is to ban things- like neo-nazi political parties and not-so-very-nice speech like Holocaust denial. This never solves anything, however. The nazis change their rhetoric and form a new party. Outlawing Holocaust denial doesn't stop anti-Semitism. And banning burqas will not stop islamic misogyny.

Atta girl.

153 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:45:54pm

re: #134 avanti

You must be joking, don't you recall Sarkozy falling all over himself trying to get pictures with Obama. He got a lot of flack for his fawning over BHO.

You must be projecting...

"France has been cooing along with everyone else over the arrival of Bo Obama at the White House, but the master of America's new First Dog is no longer in such good odour with Nicolas Sarkozy."

[Link: timescorrespondents.typepad.com...]

154 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:46:04pm

re: #150 debutaunt

I'm unable to believe anyone would willingly wear those tents.

Unless they're an islamist themselves, probably not. Most would be fine with just hijab.

155 yochanan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:46:14pm

i support the burka bans burkas have been used by al quada terrorists to hide.
gov't has the right to require photo id's that show the person's face., courts can require this at a trial or drving a car.

156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:46:19pm

France Sets up Commission to Study Wearing of Burqas

The French National Assembly has agreed to set up a commission to study the wearing of the head-to-toe Islamic covering known as the burqa. The decision was made a day after the country's president, Nicolas Sarkozy, spoke out against the garment.

The parliamentary commission will be made up of about 30 lawmakers from the political right and left. They will take a look at the prevalence of the burqa in France, following criticism by prominent politicians that the all-covering garment demeans Muslim women who wear it.

157 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:46:23pm

It's funny because the rationale for wearing them is to protect the MEN from the distraction of women that might lead them to be irreligious, right? Ayaan Hirsi Ali points this out in Infidel, and particularly points out (and gets laughed at) that why would women not become aroused by immodestly clothed MEN?

Regardless, since the bulk of the women walking around are not modestly dressed, shouldn't the men already be besides themselves with distractions?

158 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:47:01pm

re: #30 Crimsonfisted

I recall reading somewhere (sorry no link) that Candian women who wear this garment have high incidences of cases of rickets. There is a health reason to NOT constantly remain covered, and therefore risk your health by not getting enough sun so that your body can manufacture your Vitamin D.

Seems unlikely. Modern diets, especially those in the West, are awash in vitamins and minerals, far in excess of the minimums required. Vitamin deficiencies are extremely rare. An entire group exhibiting such symptom, especially in Canada, would be extremely uncommon and would attract enormous attention once noted.

If you have a reference to such cases, I'd be interested in reading them.

159 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:47:07pm

re: #151 eon

Correct. Bar shaqri, or "Oriental dance", is actually Babylonian in origin, and is definitely not approved of in the more "tradionalist" Islamic culture.

Belly dance

This explains why Jeannie was a trained belly dancer, while not being a Muslim (refer to our thread on I Dream of Jeannie a while back). The dance, like Jeannie, is considerably older than Islam.

cheers

eon

Even within Islam, the Abbasid Dynasty wasn't exactly "Wahabbi".

/heh to about 10 decimal places

160 yochanan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:48:31pm

i see burkas' and veils in my part of Chicago, people who wear them clearly do not want to be part of America and i would not be surprised if they also support jihadist terrorism.

161 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:48:38pm

Anyone who has a wife who looks like Mme. Sarko would instantly, viscerally recoil from the idea of covering a woman up from head to toe.

162 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:50:16pm

re: #78 Maui Girl

What amazes me is that these women would even WANT to go back home once they're out the door.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is still paying dearly for her freedom.

163 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:50:22pm

In Cairo, No Service for Veiled Women in Some Restaurants

About 80 percent of Egyptian women cannot get service at some restaurants. Not because of what's in their wallets but what's on their heads. The higab and other Islamic head coverings have been banned at some trendy restaurants and bars in Cairo.

Twenty-three year-old Minna Mahmoud with her hair covered in a higab says she's been denied entrance to a few clubs and restaurants. One time, she says a bouncer stopped her from entering a club.

"And the man he looked at me, just checking me out, and he said, 'I'm sorry you can't enter the place.' I was like, 'why?' 'Umm, you're veiled,'" Mahmoud said.

Mahmoud says she had to walk away. Mahmoud like many other women often don't know the policy exists until they show up. There are no signs posted outside windows but rather veiled women often know through the places reputation.

164 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:50:22pm

re: #157 spudly

It's funny because the rationale for wearing them is to protect the MEN from the distraction of women that might lead them to be irreligious, right? Ayaan Hirsi Ali points this out in Infidel, and particularly points out (and gets laughed at) that why would women not become aroused by immodestly clothed MEN?

Regardless, since the bulk of the women walking around are not modestly dressed, shouldn't the men already be besides themselves with distractions?

And there you have the root of the astronomical rape statistics in cities such as Malmo, Sweden. Any uncovered woman, particular a Western woman, is considered fair game. Islam makes no effort to civilize its males and prefers to blame and restrict women.

165 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:50:26pm

re: #134 avanti

You must be joking, don't you recall Sarkozy falling all over himself trying to get pictures with Obama. He got a lot of flack for his fawning over BHO.

if he ever fawned over o ,he has wised up.
it didn't take too long.

166 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:50:35pm

re: #160 yochanan

i see burkas' and veils in my part of Chicago, people who wear them clearly do not want to be part of America and i would not be surprised if they also support jihadist terrorism.

That is a dumb, all inclusive statement that you have NO proof for.

167 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:50:39pm

re: #95 Nevergiveup

23:48 U.S. Holocaust museum shooting suspect not well enough to appear in court (AP

I'd drag his sorry ass in anyway

I'm assuming this refers to his arraignment. Shouldn't be an issue - video arraignments are common across the country. Sounds more like the first in what will surely be a long series of delaying tactics employed by his attorneys.

Meanwhile, I move that he have a continuous stream of Sammy Davis, Jr. tunes piped into his immobilized head, 24 hours a day.

168 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:50:48pm

Good Afternoon Lizards! How is everyone's Tuesday going?

169 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:51:00pm

I had an idea back during the campaign...take that Obama girl song, "I've got a crush on Obama" (is that the name of it?) - change it to Osama, have a girl in a burqa singing it in a video...she goes to her closet, and starts going through a bunch of identical burqas...

Is that bad?

170 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:51:02pm
Where the French get it very wrong, though, is in the idea that they can ban and legislate these misogynistic power symbols out of existence.

Actually, I think they are just trying to ban it out of France.

I don't have a problem with this law for the same reason I don't have a problem with laws against prostitution--I believe more often than not it is imposed and not chosen, and when done so either is tantamount to imprisonment.

171 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:51:20pm
172 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:51:38pm

re: #161 Occasional Reader

Anyone who has a wife who looks like Mme. Sarko would instantly, viscerally recoil from the idea of covering a woman up from head to toe.

Who'd ever want Du Barry a French woman in a burka?

173 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:51:43pm

It's sad when I like the leaders of Germany and France (two countries notorious for their anti-semitism) better than I like the President of the United States of America. Bizarro World, indeed.

174 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:52:21pm

re: #172 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Who'd ever want Du Barry a French woman in a burka?

I Pompadour your sense of humor.

175 ExCamelJockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:52:46pm

Kemal Attaturk was somewhat successful in doing exactly what France is suggesting. He outlawed veils, the Fez, Islamic polygamy, closed religious schools & gave women the right to vote. He pretty much legislated them out of existence.

176 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:52:48pm

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

It's sad when I like the leaders of Germany and France (two countries notorious for their anti-semitism) better than I like the President of the United States of America. Bizarro World, indeed.

I think it's sad that France has to even suggest a fascist idea like this.

177 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:52:49pm

re: #161 Occasional Reader

Anyone who has a wife who looks like Mme. Sarko would instantly, viscerally recoil from the idea of covering a woman up from head to toe.

I think most men and most women recoil from such a custom. It is walking purdah. On an attractive woman or on one of less stelar looks- it's degrading.

178 eon  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:53:00pm

re: #159 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Even within Islam, the Abbasid Dynasty wasn't exactly "Wahabbi".

/heh to about 10 decimal places

Yep.

/add a few more decimals to that heh.

cheers

eon

179 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:53:02pm

re: #168 HoosierHoops

Good Afternoon Lizards! How is everyone's Tuesday going?

I gather you're home now.
Has Winston recovered?

180 Racer X  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:53:35pm

Interesting perspective on the Burqa from an outspoken muslim woman.

181 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:54:09pm
Where the French get it very wrong, though, is in the idea that they can ban and legislate these misogynistic power symbols out of existence.

And where the French really get it wrong is by banning garments but still allowing Islamist extremists thugs to operate freely in their country.

182 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:54:19pm

re: #177 Sharmuta

I think most men and most women recoil from such a custom.

Nope, only men who have supermodel wives.

/easy there, tiger... I was just using a flimsy excuse for a Carla Bruni pic link.

183 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:54:26pm

If they ban micro-bikinis, I am planning to seethe.

184 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:55:11pm

re: #181 Kenneth

And where the French really get it wrong is by banning garments but still allowing Islamist extremists thugs to operate freely in their country.

Yes, tolerance of dress ould be preferable to tolerance (heck, almost reward) of car-be-ques.

185 yochanan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:55:50pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

burkas and veils are not required the vast majority of muslim women in chicago do not wear them, head coverings of hair is rather common, the wearing of a burka or a full veil is only used by women who are part of the fundimentalist wing of islam you know the same ones who tend to support jihadist view points.

186 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:55:53pm

re: #183 OldLineTexan

If they ban micro-bikinis, I am planning to seethe.

I will have to join you.

187 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:55:59pm

re: #175 ExCamelJockey

Kemal Attaturk was somewhat successful in doing exactly what France is suggesting. He outlawed veils, the Fez, Islamic polygamy, closed religious schools & gave women the right to vote. He pretty much legislated them out of existence.

islam needs to be prodded.

188 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:56:18pm

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

I think it's sad that France has to even suggest a fascist idea like this.


Sarkozy isn't right about everything, and this burqa deal seems a bit extreme on his part. But I don't see him as a fascist. In fact, I see him as someone who understands that his country's social system needs some tweaking. And he is leaning in a better general direction than our own leader.

189 yochanan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:56:46pm

re: #175 ExCamelJockey

Kemal Attaturk was somewhat successful in doing exactly what France is suggesting. He outlawed veils, the Fez, Islamic polygamy, closed religious schools & gave women the right to vote. He pretty much legislated them out of existence.

not only veils he also outlawed hair coverings as well.

190 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:56:51pm

re: #178 eon

Yep.

/add a few more decimals to that heh.

cheers

eon

Decimals added.

Some author (Efraim Karsh, I think) described the Abbasid as both the apogee and the nadir of Islam (or something like that.)

191 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:57:00pm

re: #174 doppelganglander

I Pompadour your sense of humor.

French aristocracy threads are Berry inappropriate. Comte me out... I'll just duc out of this one.

192 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:57:07pm

re: #179 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I gather you're home now.
Has Winston recovered?

Howdy! He is doing much much better... He was jumping around when I got home...
Thanks for asking...

193 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:57:22pm
194 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:57:47pm

Wow. Associated Press said this?

But Obama said diplomacy is more complicated than people realize.

The grays run deeper than the blacks and whites.

It's the pundits job to second-guess, Obama said, but "only I'm the president of the United States."

Which is why he tried to balance every hands-on critique of the Iranian government with a caveat that he's hands-off.

Hands on: "The United States and the international community have been appalled and outraged ..."

Hands off: The Iranian people can speak for themselves."

Hands on: "We deplore the violence against innocent civilians anywhere it takes place."

Hands off: "We have provided a path whereby Iran can reach out to the international community, engage and become a part of international norms."

The accusations of U.S. meddling "are patently false."

Hands on: "... threats, beatings and imprisonments ..."

Hands off: "The United States respects the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and is not at all interfering in Iran's affairs."

195 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:57:50pm

re: #183 OldLineTexan

If they ban micro-bikinis, I am planning to seethe.

They can't. They're mentioned in the Bible, after all: The Thong of Thongs.

196 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:57:57pm

It's also funny to see frankly ugly women veiled. I suppose it allows them to delude themselves that minus the body cover they'd be provoking uncontrolled lust? :)

Really the point is assimilation. The good ole melting pot, not this multicultural idiocy.

The trouble is that dress like this is explicitly anti-assimilation. How you force assimilation is difficult. First, you can curtail immigration, and vet those who try to prefer westernized people. Secondly, I suppose you make sure that the citizenship testing and education heavily stresses local culture. Perhaps immigrants (women included) are forced to attend in culturally appropriate dress, and classes are always mixed. People with a problem might face citizenship failure. It's a non-trivial issue.

197 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:58:00pm

re: #191 Occasional Reader

French aristocracy threads are Berry inappropriate. Comte me out... I'll just duc out of this one.

Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!

198 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:58:22pm

re: #188 _RememberTonyC

Sarkozy isn't right about everything, and this burqa deal seems a bit extreme on his part. But I don't see him as a fascist. In fact, I see him as someone who understands that his country's social system needs some tweaking. And he is leaning in a better general direction than our own leader.

I don't want any American politician leaning in this direction. period. For me, it's a non-issue. I didn't say Sarkozy was a fascist, I simply stated this was a fascist concept, thought, law, what ever.

199 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:58:23pm

re: #163 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In Cairo, No Service for Veiled Women in Some Restaurants

From the article:

"You can't tell me I can't enter the place," [Ms.] Mahmoud said. "That's very humiliating. God gave us the choice. You're not going to give me the choice?"

It's a choice to wear the veil? That will come as news to a lot of Muslim women.

Actually, I'm more shocked there are restaurants that serve alcohol and women who go unveiled in Cairo. Is Bambi's speech having such an effect already> ;)

200 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:58:59pm

re: #175 ExCamelJockey

Kemal Attaturk was somewhat successful in doing exactly what France is suggesting. He outlawed veils, the Fez, Islamic polygamy, closed religious schools & gave women the right to vote. He pretty much legislated them out of existence.

But he forgot to bury them when he had them down?

201 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:59:17pm

re: #185 yochanan

burkas and veils are not required the vast majority of muslim women in chicago do not wear them, head coverings of hair is rather common, the wearing of a burka or a full veil is only used by women who are part of the fundimentalist wing of islam you know the same ones who tend to support jihadist view points.

I stand by what I say. Would you be happy with some sort of "loyalty oath" for woman wearing burkas and veils?

202 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:59:30pm

re: #196 spudly

It's also funny to see frankly ugly women veiled. I suppose it allows them to delude themselves that minus the body cover they'd be provoking uncontrolled lust? :)

I always get a chuckle out of that.

203 poteen  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:59:48pm

re: #125 Sharmuta

The europeans solutions to problems is to ban things- like neo-nazi political parties and not-so-very-nice speech like Holocaust denial. This never solves anything, however. The nazis change their rhetoric and form a new party. Outlawing Holocaust denial doesn't stop anti-Semitism. And banning burqas will not stop islamic misogyny.

Just as banning red and blue bandanas won't stop gangster misogyny.

204 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:00:00pm

re: #191 Occasional Reader

French aristocracy threads are Berry inappropriate. Comte me out... I'll just duc out of this one.

French aristocracy threads can be easily punctuated by the longbow.

205 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:00:05pm

Department of just plain stupid:

The Food and Drug Administration has declared that Cheerios should be regulated as a prescription drug. The government agency says that the cereal is advertised for use in the prevention, mitigation and treatment of disease.

---

There was a similar edict on Metamucil because it was also a soluble fiber that sequestered fats. Dumb. And these guys are going to run my health plan?

206 gregb  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:00:17pm

It's like obscenity--they'll know it when they see it.

Burqas have been used the past couple of years in French high fashion shows. In fact, they've been so commonly used as a fashion statement (kind of like Rachael Ray's scarf?) that the French government has set up a commission to help determine when a burqa is being used as a prison and when it's being used as art.

That way madness lies...

[Link: images.google.com...]

207 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:00:40pm

re: #197 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!

Sadist!

208 haakondahl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:00:54pm

re: #183 OldLineTexan

If they ban micro-bikinis, I am planning to seethe.

Go ahead and seethe, you guys.

209 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:00:57pm

re: #205 Shr_Nfr

Department of just plain stupid:

The Food and Drug Administration has declared that Cheerios should be regulated as a prescription drug. The government agency says that the cereal is advertised for use in the prevention, mitigation and treatment of disease.

---

There was a similar edict on Metamucil because it was also a soluble fiber that sequestered fats. Dumb. And these guys are going to run my health plan?

If they run it, the "health" will not have anything to do with it.

210 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:01:46pm

re: #208 haakondahl

Actually I am all in favor of seethe through bikinis on the right woman.

211 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:01:47pm

re: #205 Shr_Nfr

Department of just plain stupid:

The Food and Drug Administration has declared that Cheerios should be regulated as a prescription drug.

Source? I'm... a little suspicious here.

212 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:01:48pm

re: #208 haakondahl

Go ahead and seethe, you guys.

Did I miss a ban? I want to be sure before I take to the streets.

/because it's closing in on 100F today

213 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:01:57pm

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

I don't want any American politician leaning in this direction. period. For me, it's a non-issue. I didn't say Sarkozy was a fascist, I simply stated this was a fascist concept, thought, law, what ever.


As I said, this deal with Sarko and the burqa is a bit extreme. But in other areas, Sarkozy seems to be doing some good things. In the areas of economics and foreign policy, he seems to have a better clue than our own Prez. I've actually seen more than one niqab-clad woman in my own town. And I have no particular problem with it. And I would never support banning them.

214 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:01:58pm

00:50 Iraq to mark U.S. pullback from cities with holiday (AP

the feelings mutual pal!

215 beens21  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:02:19pm

someone's comment reminded me of the summer afternoon walk in Tehran 30 plus years ago when two 20 somethings in chadors flashed me, nothing but bikinis and big smiles underneath.

216 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:02:33pm

re: #209 Nevergiveup

Tell me about it.

217 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:02:51pm

In the past we have had threads at LGF about Wilders and his suggestions that the Koran be banned, and if I remember correctly, there was a lot of opposition to that concept.

For a matter of fact, when people like Robert Spencer appeared to support Wilders, then the outrage even became stronger.

But, this burka ban doesn't seem to be as bothersome, if I am reading some of the comments correctly.

Double standard?

218 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:02:58pm

re: #210 Shr_Nfr

Actually I am all in favor of seethe through bikinis on the right woman.

Heh!

Nice combination of two different running threads!
Up-ding!

219 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:03:00pm

re: #170 nikis-knight

Actually, I think they are just trying to ban it out of France.

I don't have a problem with this law for the same reason I don't have a problem with laws against prostitution--I believe more often than not it is imposed and not chosen, and when done so either is tantamount to imprisonment.

Perhaps. But government constraints on what you can wear, or on any other sort of behavior, are inherently odious and should be avoided.

Better to get the word out that the government will vigorously defend the right of anyone who chooses not to wear one. If they feel a law of any sort must be passed, pass one that makes compulsion to wear a burkha in the first place a crime. This targets the true offenders - those exerting oppression. Make it a crime to force your wife, daughter or anyone else to wear one, punishment similar to domestic violence statutes.

Constraints under special circumstances - court appearances, driver's license photos, certain security areas - seem acceptable. But a wholesale ban is as much an imposition as what such a ban hopes to stop.

220 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:03:33pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

In the past we have had threads at LGF about Wilders and his suggestions that the Koran be banned, and if I remember correctly, there was a lot of opposition to that concept.

For a matter of fact, when people like Robert Spencer appeared to support Wilders, then the outrage even became stronger.

But, this burka ban doesn't seem to be as bothersome, if I am reading some of the comments correctly.

Double standard?

Hard to oogle girls in a burka ain't it?

221 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:03:41pm

re: #211 Occasional Reader

www.rasmussenreports.com has a poll up on the topic with that as a statement.


Rasmussen Reports Daily Prediction Challenge
Tuesday, June 23, 2009
Email a Friend Email to a Friend ShareThis
Advertisement

The daily Rasmussen Reports Prediction Challenge for Tuesday focuses on Cheerios.

The Food and Drug Administration has declared that Cheerios should be regulated as a prescription drug. The government agency says that the cereal is advertised for use in the prevention, mitigation and treatment of disease. On June 23-24, 2009, Rasmussen Reports will be asking voters nationwide the following question: Should Cheerios be regulated as a prescription drug?

Now, we’d like you to predict what percentage of voters will say "yes." To make a prediction, click HERE.

222 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:03:44pm

To get rid of something one has to take a page from the Book of Bokonon and actually require Burqas to be worn...

223 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:03:49pm

re: #213 _RememberTonyC

As I said, this deal with Sarko and the burqa is a bit extreme. But in other areas, Sarkozy seems to be doing some good things. In the areas of economics and foreign policy, he seems to have a better clue than our own Prez. I've actually seen more than one niqab-clad woman in my own town. And I have no particular problem with it. And I would never support banning them.

How about the full-up veil/facemask in a bank/driver's license office?

There will have to be a line somewhere on this slippery slope.

224 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:04:14pm

Many lizards know Shahrukh Khan from this video...
Dil Se

He's been charged with hurting Muslim feelings...
FIR filed against Shahrukh for comment on Prophet Mohammed

The police revealed that they have registered a case against Shahrukh after receiving an application from an advocate, who alleged that the actor made some remarks against Prophet Mohammed, which has hurt the sentiments of the Muslim community. It added that he would not be arrested immediately but would take action after the probing is done. Shahrukh could be jailed for three years if convicted.

Shahrukh's comment has invited wrath from the Muslim community. Farid Sheikh, President of Mumbai Aman Committee, said that they would not allow Shahrukh's body to be buried anywhere in Maharashtra. Zarar Qureshi, secretary of the committee, also said that the actor has hurt the Muslim community by bracketed the Prophet Mohammed along with Adolf Hitler and Winston Churchill.

Meanwhile, Shahrukh, who is currently busy shooting for Karan Johar's My Name Is Khan in the US, said that he was misrepresented. He added that his most important objective in life is to stand up for the tenets of Islam.

225 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:04:22pm

re: #218 pre-Boomer Marine brat

the seeth through bikinis are even better when the threads start to unravel.

226 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:04:33pm

re: #220 Nevergiveup

Hard to oogle girls in a burka ain't it?

Sorry, I was being serious, try again.

227 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:04:48pm

re: #205 Shr_Nfr

Department of just plain stupid:

The Food and Drug Administration has declared that Cheerios should be regulated as a prescription drug...

Oh dear! I guess my kids have been hard core drug addicts all their lives...

228 yochanan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:04:52pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

i stand by what i see as well.

229 eon  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:05:35pm

re: #164 doppelganglander

And there you have the root of the astronomical rape statistics in cities such as Malmo, Sweden. Any uncovered woman, particular a Western woman, is considered fair game. Islam makes no effort to civilize its males and prefers to blame and restrict women.

More accurately, post-Qutb Islam so rigidly segregates men and women, from cradle to grave, that young Islamic men literally have no idea how to properly behave around women. They are furthermore taught that there is basically only one "legitimate" way to experience warmth, tenderness, etc.; it's called "Martyr yourself, go to Heaven, and receive 72 pretty virgins".

The results are catastrophic for all concerned.

See The World's Most Toxic Values System by Prof. Steven Dutch.

cheers

eon

230 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:05:40pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

I stand by what I say. Would you be happy with some sort of "loyalty oath" for woman wearing burkas and veils?

Yes.

Oath of Allegiance
To become a citizen, one must take the oath of allegiance. By doing so, an applicant swears to:

support the Constitution and obey the laws of the U.S.;
renounce any foreign allegiance and/or foreign title; and
bear arms for the Armed Forces of the U.S. or perform services for the government of the U.S. when required.


That's for immigrants already, and I'd like it extended to natural born citizens, personally.

231 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:05:57pm

re: #182 Occasional Reader

I'm not going to apologize for my feminism. No woman deserves to be forced into a burqa.

232 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:06:17pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

In the past we have had threads at LGF about Wilders and his suggestions that the Koran be banned, and if I remember correctly, there was a lot of opposition to that concept.

For a matter of fact, when people like Robert Spencer appeared to support Wilders, then the outrage even became stronger.

But, this burka ban doesn't seem to be as bothersome, if I am reading some of the comments correctly.

Double standard?

I don't agree that the burka should be banned, but I have serious issues with veils and masks.

I've never seen a bank robber disguised using a Koran, so it seems to be a less-than-apt comparison, except as "religious free speech".

And that's cool, until we get to the extreme of driver's licenses with masked faces on them.

233 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:06:49pm

re: #224 Killgore Trout

Always love that video. Hope he beats the rap.

234 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:06:53pm

re: #231 Sharmuta

I'm not going to apologize for my feminism. No woman deserves to be forced into a burqa.

Or out of it by the government.

235 horse  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:07:01pm

re: #199 doppelganglander


Actually, I'm more shocked there are restaurants that serve alcohol and women who go unveiled in Cairo. Is Bambi's speech having such an effect already> ;)

Yes, the effects from our superhero's oratory powers are so great they actually break through the space-time continuum and improve past events. Thus he can rightly claim to be "first" in select actions, even though those actions may have already been done by prior administrations.

236 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:07:07pm

re: #224 Killgore Trout

Many lizards know Shahrukh Khan from this video...
Dil Se

[Video]He's been charged with hurting Muslim feelings...
FIR filed against Shahrukh for comment on Prophet Mohammed

What did he say? I can't figure out how he "bracketed the Prophet Mohammed along with Adolf Hitler and Winston Churchill."

/whistling the Sesame Street tune, "three of these things belong together"

237 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:07:40pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

Not a double standard. The burqa is not essential to the religion. The Koran is. Many devout Muslism do not wear the burqa. The use of the burqa today is largely a political act of oppression, not a religious act of devotion or piety.

238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:08:09pm

re: #224 Killgore Trout

Many lizards know Shahrukh Khan from this video...
Dil Se

Youtube Video

He's been charged with hurting Muslim feelings...
FIR filed against Shahrukh for comment on Prophet Mohammed

ooo! ... Dil Se !
*turning up the volume*

---
What's your read on the possibility that this IS a misquote or something?

239 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:08:45pm

Missed it...did Obama actually say today at his presser, "But I am the President..." When Bush said things like that he was accused of being arrogant. Glad Obama has cleared that all up now.

240 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:09:13pm

re: #232 OldLineTexan

I don't agree that the burka should be banned, but I have serious issues with veils and masks.

I've never seen a bank robber disguised using a Koran, so it seems to be a less-than-apt comparison, except as "religious free speech".

And that's cool, until we get to the extreme of driver's licenses with masked faces on them.

And I agree with what you said. I wasn't talking about fulfilling certain laws, such as obvious photos on ID's etc. But, if a thief uses a burka to commit a crime, than that's something we are going t o have to deal with, but not by banning them.

In that case, we should ban beards and wigs and costumes and so on.

241 BigPapa  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:09:19pm

I wonder how Media Benjamin feels about burquas.

Do they work well for sound?

242 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:09:44pm

re: #237 Kenneth

Not a double standard. The burqa is not essential to the religion. The Koran is. Many devout Muslism do not wear the burqa. The use of the burqa today is largely a political act of oppression, not a religious act of devotion or piety.

It doesn't matter. If a woman wants to wear it, she should be able to.

243 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:09:46pm

re: #239 Big Steve

Missed it...did Obama actually say today at his presser, "But I am the President..." When Bush said things like that he was accused of being arrogant. Glad Obama has cleared that all up now.

Obama cannot be arrogant by definition, because he really IS that wonderful.

/cult of personality disorder

244 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:09:50pm

re: #231 Sharmuta

I'm not going to apologize for my feminism. No woman deserves to be forced into a burqa.

I was appalled to find out that Neda took underground singing lessons, because women aren't allowed to sing in Iran. That these bizarre restrictions exist for human beings anywhere on the globe is a disgrace.

245 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:09:53pm

re: #234 Walter L. Newton

Or out of it by the government.

good point...by the way whose the babe on your avatar?

246 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:09:59pm

Well, all I know is, being forced to wear any kind of clothing is wrong.
I still here crickets from the NOW gang about what goes on in these misogynistic societies.
Pardon some of my rambling the Percocet is kicking in.
I am just sick unto death of these medieval morons.

247 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:10:19pm

re: #233 Sharmuta

I'm pretty sure he will. He's got serious money to hire serious lawyers.

248 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:10:31pm

re: #245 Big Steve

good point...by the way whose the babe on your avatar?

What babe?

249 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:10:33pm

re: #229 eon

See The World's Most Toxic Values System by Prof. Steven Dutch.

cheers

eon

Thanks, that looks like excellent reading. I've long felt that the honor/shame culture in Islam is one of its worst features, and one of its least understood in the West.

250 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:10:59pm

re: #244 capitalist piglet

I was appalled to find out that Neda took underground singing lessons, because women aren't allowed to sing in Iran. That these bizarre restrictions exist for human beings anywhere on the globe is a disgrace.

Apparently Allah does not like the sound of the female voice...you know that faculty that he provided all women!

251 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:11:10pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

And I agree with what you said. I wasn't talking about fulfilling certain laws, such as obvious photos on ID's etc. But, if a thief uses a burka to commit a crime, than that's something we are going t o have to deal with, but not by banning them.

In that case, we should ban beards and wigs and costumes and so on.

Like I said, I have a problem with masks and veils. Certain costumes in Houston will get you detained ... the burka not being one of them.

252 BigPapa  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:11:20pm

re: #241 BigPapa

I wonder how Media Benjamin...


And yes, that was a Fruedian slip.

253 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:11:39pm

re: #242 Walter L. Newton
I agree Walter, free choice, not being forced to by some bearded, turbanned maniacs.

254 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:11:49pm

re: #219 SixDegrees

Well, I guess I'm not really in favor of it in general, but I think it might do more good than harm in France. It would be premature at best to start thinking about here, and even then best restricted as you outlined.

255 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:11:57pm

re: #243 OldLineTexan

Obama cannot be arrogant by definition, because he really IS that wonderful.

/cult of personality disorder

I'm stealing that!

256 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:12:07pm

re: #238 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What's your read on the possibility that this IS a misquote or something?


It's probably a misquote, or out of context. He is a Muslim, his wife is Hindu and they're raising the kids as both. Not that unusual in India.

257 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:12:16pm
Where the French get it very wrong, though, is in the idea that they can ban and legislate these misogynistic power symbols out of existence.

Banning burqas wont stop any religious inspired or mandated misogyny. What they need to do is say NO to allowing Sharia law in the areas of France where Muslim immigrants self-segregate themselves. They also need to bring the full force of the law on those who commit violent acts of misogyny including but not limited to honor killings in these areas. It might say somewhere in the Bible that a man can stone his wife for cheating on him, but a Christian doing that in the US will rightly expect an unpleasant visit from the cops afterward if he does so. Like the US, France has separation of church and state, it should start acting like it.

Probably could use cops with the cahones to go into the neighborhoods and not surrender at the first sign of trouble. That might be hard to find in France though.

258 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:12:20pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

Two jewel theives in Toronto were using a burqa. The two men posed as man & wife, while the shorter man under the burqa carried a guns. When the jewelry shop keeper let them in, they started to look at rings, then out came the guns. They managed to rob a few shops before they were caught. They were from Pakistan.

259 haakondahl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:12:27pm

Ah, the finale of Take Your Fingers From My Hair -- Zebra.

I am zooming.

260 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:12:31pm

re: #250 Big Steve

Apparently Allah does not like the sound of the female voice...you know that faculty that he provided all women!

As some here know, I sing professionally. It blew me away to read that. I just can't wrap my mind around that kind of bizarre control of women.

261 sevoguy  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:12:36pm

The burqa? If I was a bankrobber...? Or an escaping islamist.

What's the big deal about the burqa. They can wear it in there native countries. Just not France.

262 opnion  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:12:55pm

re: #237 Kenneth

Not a double standard. The burqa is not essential to the religion. The Koran is. Many devout Muslism do not wear the burqa. The use of the burqa today is largely a political act of oppression, not a religious act of devotion or piety.

Well said. In the Koran, the Prophets wives were veiled because Mohammad was insanely jealous, actually insane in general.
There is no admonition to wear the burqua.
It is a method to dehumanise the female. It is much easier to abuse somebody who is less than human.

263 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:12:57pm

re: #255 doppelganglander

I'm stealing that!

You're welcome to it. I need Vanna White to turn the letters, though.

/

264 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:13:08pm

I simply cannot believe my eyes...banning th burqa beecause of what it symbolizes?...that's just plain unAmerican

265 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:13:28pm

re: #242 Walter L. Newton

That is a different issue. I was speaking to your question of a double standard. But yes, I agree with you that banning them is unconstitutional. It also misses the point.

266 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:13:42pm

re: #221 Shr_Nfr

www.rasmussenreports.com has a poll up on the topic with that as a statement.


Rasmussen Reports Daily Prediction Challenge
Tuesday, June 23, 2009
Email a Friend Email to a Friend ShareThis
Advertisement

The daily Rasmussen Reports Prediction Challenge for Tuesday focuses on Cheerios.

The Food and Drug Administration has declared that Cheerios should be regulated as a prescription drug.

The story seems to have been inverted.

It's not that FDA is planning on regulating Cheerios as a drug; it's that they've warned General Mills not to make "drug-like" health claims in their Cheerios advertising.

267 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:13:46pm

re: #226 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, I was being serious, try again.

OK if I had to guess. The Koran is a "holy" book to many. And perhaps one could make the case that Burkas are just a perverted interpretation of that book?

268 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:14:03pm

shahrukh khan muslim

269 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:14:11pm

re: #258 Kenneth

Two jewel theives in Toronto were using a burqa. The two men posed as man & wife, while the shorter man under the burqa carried a guns. When the jewelry shop keeper let them in, they started to look at rings, then out came the guns. They managed to rob a few shops before they were caught. They were from Pakistan.

Two jewel theives in New York were using a wig, woman's clothes and beard. The two men posed as man & wife, while the shorter man under his coat carried guns. When the jewelry shop keeper let them in, they started to look at rings, then out came the guns. They managed to rob a few shops before they were caught. They were from Brooklyn.

270 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:14:24pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

It's probably a misquote, or out of context. He is a Muslim, his wife is Hindu and they're raising the kids as both. Not that unusual in India.

Thanks.

(I just got back from watchin' the video -- wasn't watching the girl at all.)
/I lie like a rug

271 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:14:29pm

re: #266 Occasional Reader

That is perfectly sensible. They have been treading the line. As have those sneaky Quaker Oats people!

/

272 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:14:31pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton


Double standard?

A few people have pointed out that there are legitimate reasons to be against total face covers. In Western civilization, unless it's 20 below zero, covering the face is something only criminals do.

The 1st Amendment in the US has been interpreted to disallow the iconic "yelling "fire!" in a theater." I suppose that it's not far-fetched that you could argue that 1st Amendment religious protection doesn't go so far as to allow anonymity in public. I'm on the fence, frankly. In general I disagree with the idea, but I can see certain times when it makes sense. I think we can all agree that it would be completely wrong to wear that while operating a vehicle as it would remove all peripheral vision. Pragmatism trumps religious freedom there, obviously.

273 haakondahl  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:15:05pm

Just received my copy of A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown. Always wanted to read this!

274 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:15:26pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

In that case, we should ban beards and wigs and costumes and so on.

IIRC there have been some legislative moves to ban "hoodies".

275 Racer X  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:15:54pm

re: #264 albusteve

I simply cannot believe my eyes...banning th burqa beecause of what it symbolizes?...that's just plain unAmerican

Uh, its France.

276 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:00pm

No burqas.
Floppy hat.
Sundress.
White Keds.
Call me old fashioned.
Call me Southern.

277 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:03pm

re: #269 Walter L. Newton

Really? Or are you trying to make an ironic point. I was simply sharing an anecdote of something that happened up here. When they cought them, the picture in the news was rather funny.

278 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:05pm

re: #272 spudly

A few people have pointed out that there are legitimate reasons to be against total face covers. In Western civilization, unless it's 20 below zero, covering the face is something only criminals do.

The 1st Amendment in the US has been interpreted to disallow the iconic "yelling "fire!" in a theater." I suppose that it's not far-fetched that you could argue that 1st Amendment religious protection doesn't go so far as to allow anonymity in public. I'm on the fence, frankly. In general I disagree with the idea, but I can see certain times when it makes sense. I think we can all agree that it would be completely wrong to wear that while operating a vehicle as it would remove all peripheral vision. Pragmatism trumps religious freedom there, obviously.

I never stated that the burka should be valid in ALL situations. I said it should not be banned outright.

279 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:25pm

re: #263 OldLineTexan

You're welcome to it. I need Vanna White to turn the letters, though.

/

Jeopardy has a similar category also called Before and After. Sometimes they make it Before, During and After, with 3 elements. I kick ass at those questions.

280 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:33pm

re: #274 Occasional Reader

IIRC there have been some legislative moves to ban "hoodies".

Gangbangers: Cops love it when you wear your oversized shorts around your knees.

281 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:35pm

re: #221 Shr_Nfr

The impact is similar to Metamucil. They can advertise it as something to eat, they just cannot advertise it as something that reduces cholesterol. Never mind that it does. You just can't say that the food has a lot of soluble fiber and that soluble fiber has been shown to reduce cholesterol. Like I say dumb. No, you will not need a doctor's prescription the next time you visit your grocery store.

282 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:38pm

re: #260 capitalist piglet

As some here know, I sing professionally. It blew me away to read that. I just can't wrap my mind around that kind of bizarre control of women.

Agreed...we do get wrapped up in the obvious Islamic outward issues toward women, such as burqas, not appearing in public sans husband...etc. But it obviously goes much much deeper. So does the ban extend to humming as well. How about softly whistling to one's self, reading poetry out loud...accidentally rhyming words?

283 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:44pm

re: #244 capitalist piglet

I was appalled to find out that Neda took underground singing lessons, because women aren't allowed to sing in Iran. That these bizarre restrictions exist for human beings anywhere on the globe is a disgrace.

While it is appalling, it's not surprising. From birth to death, far too many muslim females are considered a burden that must be restricted in almost every capacity. The solution is for muslim women to start their own feminist movement, and in some places, they are.

284 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:16:59pm

re: #274 Occasional Reader
IIRC, some schools have banned them. I know my jr./high school boys had a whole list of clothes they couldn't wear because of gang connotations.

285 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:17:03pm

re: #223 OldLineTexan

How about the full-up veil/facemask in a bank/driver's license office?

There will have to be a line somewhere on this slippery slope.


good point

286 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:17:06pm

re: #266 Occasional Reader

Yes, I noted that in a later post. Never mind that the claim is true.

287 Jimmah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:17:07pm

re: #109 medaura18586

Charles,

Banning the burqas out of existence based on the justification that the repressive and misogynistic mentality they embody is very wrong. But legitimate public safety considerations exist for banning the burqa in public -- and they have got nothing to do with French values (and the proposal that all immigrants must conform thereto). Recognizable identity affords certain bona fides to everyday commerce and basic social interactions, that could be subverted by people reserving themselves the prerogative to act anonymously in public. Bank robberies and terrorist acts come to mind. I am in favor of banning the burqa in urban areas, but not for Sarkozy's professed reasons.

Muslim-owned shop bans customers wearing veils

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

288 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:17:37pm

re: #275 Racer X

Uh, its France.

I know that

289 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:17:38pm

re: #271 OldLineTexan

That is perfectly sensible. They have been treading the line. As have those sneaky Quaker Oats people!

/

Before long, we'll be in business smuggling black market Cap'n Crunch into Texas from Mexico (where that stuff is FREELY AVAILABLE without a prescription, dude! You can can totally "Crunched" right there on the street in broad daylight, and the cops can't touch you!).

290 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:18:12pm

re: #268 Killgore Trout

shahrukh khan muslim

Youtube Video

Thanks very much!

291 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:18:43pm
292 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:18:45pm

re: #289 Occasional Reader

Before long, we'll be in business smuggling black market Cap'n Crunch into Texas from Mexico (where that stuff is FREELY AVAILABLE without a prescription, dude! You can can totally "Crunched" right there on the street in broad daylight, and the cops can't touch you!).

Crunchitize me, Cap'n!

/don't eat the blue crunchberries

293 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:19:02pm

re: #271 OldLineTexan

I've never known a Quaker to feel their oats and I was raised as one. (dirty secret of my life)

294 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:19:06pm

re: #277 Kenneth

Really? Or are you trying to make an ironic point. I was simply sharing an anecdote of something that happened up here. When they cought them, the picture in the news was rather funny.

Ironic point. I could come up with a dozen ways that someone could disguise themselves to commit a crime. Do we start banning all sorts of items because of that?

France has also banned the Star of David, crosses and other religious items being used in public.

Why stop with banning the burka in America, lets go all out and follow France, no public displays of a personal religious nature.

Here comes the bath water, duck, there's a baby in there.

295 eon  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:19:11pm

re: #237 Kenneth

Not a double standard. The burqa is not essential to the religion. The Koran is. Many devout Muslism do not wear the burqa. The use of the burqa today is largely a political act of oppression, not a religious act of devotion or piety.

Originally (as I understand it), in pre-Islamic times, the burqa, like the male robes, was adopted in the MidEast for purely practical reasons. In the desert, during the day, you covered up to avoid sunstroke, and at night, you either wore a robe, or stayed inside, to avoid catching a chill. (Anyone who's been in a desert, at night, knows how fast the day's heat vanishes after sundown.)

But the original burqa was white, like the male robes, and made of lightweight material, to achieve its purpose of avoiding overheating in daylight. And it was originally not exclusively Arabic dress, either. The Egyptians, among others, adopted similar garb while out in the open desert. Heck, the Israelites probably wore such clothing during the Exodus, as a matter of simple common sense while wandering around Sinai for forty years or so.

So, can somebody explain any rational sort of evolution that could change a lightweight white sun-protective garment into a heavy black garment that would seem to be perfectly designed to defeat its own original purpose?

//a bit on that last paragraph, I think

cheers

eon

296 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:19:12pm

re: #291 wrenchwench

Modest kitteh.

ROTFLMAO

297 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:19:12pm

re: #283 Sharmuta

There are some wonderful female Iranian singers, they must work outside of Iran to keep their traditional music alive.

298 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:19:19pm

re: #141 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It didn't.
Two cultures.

From what I can find, belly dancing seems to have originated in southern Iraq and was later banned when Islam arrived.

299 MikeySDCA  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:19:31pm

The ultimate French nanny-state: a national dress code.

300 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:20:18pm

Attaturk banned the wearing of the fez, a religious symbol, after he assumed power in Turkey to force secularization and westernization. How well he succeeded remains to be seen, but Turkey may be the most western of Muslim countries.

I've seen burkas on the streets of NYC. I've also seen Orthodox Jewish women in wigs, Jewish men in 16th century Polish costumes, and a wide variety of other foreign dress, including kilts.

There's no doubt of the religious significance of much of this attire. It's only a political issue if the religion is a threat to the secular state. Sarkozy must feel threatened.

301 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:20:40pm

re: #299 MikeySDCA

The ultimate French nanny-state: a national dress code.

Maybe the beach police will distribute muu-muus to the folks who should stay away from Speedos and minikinis.

302 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:21:14pm

re: #295 eon

But the original burqa was white, like the male robes

Yep, it's the covering up from head to foot in ALL BLACK robes in a baking desert sun that I don't understand.

303 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:21:35pm

re: #294 Walter L. Newton

I agree with you on the stupidity of the burqa banning. The youts are burning cars so the French gov't turns around and bans a garment. Psychologists call that transference and it's pathological.

304 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:21:36pm

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — Appealing to a powerful Saudi prince, an 8-year-old girl asked why she was not allowed to play sports in school like boys. She got an unexpected response: The prince said he hoped government schools for girls would allow playing fields.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

"Soccer or basketball require running and jumping and these could damage (a woman's) the hymen," he wrote. "If she marries, her husband will ... think that her hymen was destroyed as a result of an (immoral) action."

Trouble in River City?

305 Catttt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:21:36pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

It's probably a misquote, or out of context. He is a Muslim, his wife is Hindu and they're raising the kids as both. Not that unusual in India.

Sounds like. Stupid though, imho. I'm guessing the cops who took the FIR were rolling their eyes mentally.

Complainant Khalid Babu Querishi can bite my ass - the whiny beoch. Geez. So not in the mood for hurt feelings today.

Once again, THANK YOU founding fathers for the Bill of Rights. We really owe you guys a lot.

306 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:22:31pm

Time to hit the road for a meeting.

I will be dressed in the colorful native costume of my people (polo shirt, cheap jeans, and New Balance 'athletic' (snort) shoes).

/

307 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:22:42pm

re: #272 spudly

There are anti-mask laws dating back to Reconstruction, directed at the Klan. Those laws have been held to be constitutional.

308 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:22:54pm

re: #303 Kenneth

The youts are burning cars so the French gov't turns around and bans a garment. Psychologists call that transference and it's pathological.

Yep. Obviously, they should instead ban matches.

/sarko tag

309 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:22:54pm

re: #302 Occasional Reader

Yep, it's the covering up from head to foot in ALL BLACK robes in a baking desert sun that I don't understand.

They bake bread in there.

310 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:23:18pm

OR- I didn't mean to sound grouchy with you. I just get passionate about islamic misogyny.

311 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:23:19pm

re: #304 Nevergiveup

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — Appealing to a powerful Saudi prince, an 8-year-old girl asked why she was not allowed to play sports in school like boys. She got an unexpected response: The prince said he hoped government schools for girls would allow playing fields.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

"Soccer or basketball require running and jumping and these could damage (a woman's) the hymen," he wrote. "If she marries, her husband will ... think that her hymen was destroyed as a result of an (immoral) action."

Trouble in River City?

Ha. Those crazy Fraudis.

312 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:23:26pm

re: #287 Jimmah

Muslim-owned shop bans customers wearing veils

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Good... And since the shop was Muslim owned, the PC socialites cannot resort to the knee-jerk shriek of discrimination and religious bigotry.

From the article:


Local councillor Hanzala Malik backed the plan. "I know in Scotland that banks will not allow their customers coming in with motorbike helmets, I don't see why it should be different for people wearing the Niqab. It is an issue about identifying people," he said.

This is a simple matter of commonsense and public safety.

313 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:24:01pm

re: #304 Nevergiveup

Sooo... running is bad for the hymen, but FGM is good?

Got it. Religion of Misogyny.

314 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:24:10pm

re: #308 Occasional Reader

Yep. Obviously, they should instead ban matches.

/sarko tag

Cars. Ban cars.

/Obama tag

315 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:24:17pm

re: #310 Sharmuta

OR- I didn't mean to sound grouchy with you. I just get passionate about islamic misogyny.

You are passionate about misogyny all in all, and that is commendable.

316 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:24:28pm

re: #309 OldLineTexan

They bake bread in there.

There is a yeast joke in here somewhere. Must. Resist.

317 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:24:38pm

re: #315 Walter L. Newton

Thanks.

318 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:24:40pm

re: #278 Walter L. Newton

I realize that.

My point was that once you permit it to be limited (particularly if it is decided that it is NOT a religious statement/requirement), then the limits are effectively arbitrary.

We all agree that wearing a burqa while driving should certainly be banned. In the US, it is illegal to enter a business that sells alcohol with a firearm—and firearms are explicitly protected from infringement in the Bill of Rights. Would it be OK to ban burqas from banks or convenience stores using a similar rationale?

I'm just throwing stuff out there. As I said, I'm not for it in general, but I can see limits on it as well. I'm also open to the idea of forcing it for assimilation.

Attaturk was brought up earlier. Look at the USA. We have had institutional racism in the form of "Affirmative Action" for a while. AA is absolutely racism, plain and simple. The argument is that it was/is needed for a period of time to balance the scales.

I think it is not fascist for the French to discuss the idea that such a policy—abhorrent though it might be—is useful for a limited time to "balance the scales" and assimilate subjugated Muslim women immigrants. There have been numerous times when rights in the US were curtailed or eliminated for periods of duress.

So while I'm mostly against it, I'm open to reasoned arguments.

319 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:24:45pm

re: #310 Sharmuta

OR- I didn't mean to sound grouchy with you. I just get passionate about islamic misogyny.

And I get passionate about supermodels... so it's all good.

320 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:25:08pm

how apropos but the "Sexy Arab Girls" ad has popped up again.

321 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:25:22pm

re: #304 Nevergiveup

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — Appealing to a powerful Saudi prince, an 8-year-old girl asked why she was not allowed to play sports in school like boys. She got an unexpected response: The prince said he hoped government schools for girls would allow playing fields.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

"Soccer or basketball require running and jumping and these could damage (a woman's) the hymen," he wrote. "If she marries, her husband will ... think that her hymen was destroyed as a result of an (immoral) action."

Trouble in River City?

What kind of sick weirdo worries about an 8-year-old's hymen? Sadly, he's probably right about the way a Saudi man would jump to conclusions about what happened. Just sick.

322 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:25:23pm

re: #291 wrenchwench

Modest kitteh.

ROFLMAO!

323 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:25:35pm

re: #316 Truck Monkey

There is a yeast joke in here somewhere. Must. Resist.

I know you can rise to the occasion.

324 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:25:58pm

I have a friend who is a female U.S. diplomat posted to Afghanistan. She said many Afghan women like burkas, because they can wear tracksuits and sneakers under them, and not have to get dolled up to go out.

325 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:26:25pm

re: #300 quickjustice

Attaturk banned the wearing of the fez, a religious symbol, after he assumed power in Turkey to force secularization and westernization. How well he succeeded remains to be seen, but Turkey may be the most western of Muslim countries.

I've seen burkas on the streets of NYC. I've also seen Orthodox Jewish women in wigs, Jewish men in 16th century Polish costumes, and a wide variety of other foreign dress, including kilts.

There's no doubt of the religious significance of much of this attire. It's only a political issue if the religion is a threat to the secular state. Sarkozy must feel threatened.

The burka has religious significance?

326 Racer X  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:26:28pm

re: #309 OldLineTexan

They bake bread in there.

I was going to say something about a yeast infection, but thought butter of it.

327 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:26:45pm

re: #304 Nevergiveup

Ancient Jewish proverb: "No diamond, no hymen."

328 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:26:57pm

re: #323 doppelganglander

I know you can rise to the occasion.

It's good that we can leaven the thread with a little humor.

329 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:27:26pm

re: #324 quickjustice

I have a friend who is a female U.S. diplomat posted to Afghanistan. She said many Afghan women like burkas, because they can wear tracksuits and sneakers under them, and not have to get dolled up to go out.

Or they can go to college in the USA and dress the same way without the Burkas?

330 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:27:30pm

Anybody here remember that damn video that was posted and the islamic asshole kept eling his wife..."get in the bag bitch"

331 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:27:33pm

Banning the Burqa, is a bad idea, its too slippery.
On the other hand restricting its use in public is a different thing altogether.

332 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:27:57pm

I'm running behind on the thread because I've got Dil Se running in another window.

/IT'S ALL KILLGORE'S FAULT !

333 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:28:16pm

re: #324 quickjustice

I have a friend who is a female U.S. diplomat posted to Afghanistan. She said many Afghan women like burkas, because they can wear tracksuits and sneakers under them, and not have to get dolled up to go out.

Don't buy it...wear the tracksuit and head out for your chores and forget the dolling up.

334 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:28:19pm

re: #325 debutaunt

Yes. Preservation of "modesty". Jewish and Christian women also are urged to dress modestly as part of their faith. Burkas are considered unnecessary for that.

335 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:28:28pm

re: #331 DEZes

Banning the Burqa, is a bad idea, its too slippery.

A little friction tape in key areas should take care of that.

336 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:28:32pm

re: #332 pre-Boomer Marine brat
You got WHAT? WHERE?

337 BigPapa  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:28:49pm

re: #304 Nevergiveup


"Soccer or basketball require running and jumping and these could damage (a woman's) the hymen," he wrote. "If she marries, her husband will ... think that her hymen was destroyed as a result of an (immoral) action."

Don't let the vermin in the hymen! Keep your hymen up girls!

338 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:29:28pm

re: #322 pre-Boomer Marine brat

ROFLMAO!

Well this is a bunny of a differant stripe.

339 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:29:48pm

re: #317 Sharmuta

Thanks.

Hey you! Good to see you as always...

340 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:29:54pm

re: #320 Big Steve

Red scarf is not your type, but Fatima . . .

341 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:29:54pm

re: #324 quickjustice

I have a friend who is a female U.S. diplomat posted to Afghanistan. She said many Afghan women like burkas, because they can wear tracksuits and sneakers under them, and not have to get dolled up to go out.

What a nonsensical argument. In a social environment so restrictive of female ostentation that the burqa is in widespread use, getting dolled up would probably be out of the question, or, if not, at least beyond the pale. What makes them think the alternatives are between such extreme choices -- shapeless faceless burqa or "dolling up?"

If they weren't to wear a burqa, they wouldn't have to doll up either. They could wear their tracksuits and sneakers in public.

This is a demented argument if I ever heard one. Perhaps it's ugly, insecure women having an excuse to not show their ugly faces, and the "argument" is just a half-baked rationalization.

342 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:30:11pm

re: #337 BigPapa

Don't let the vermin in the hymen! Keep your hymen up girls!

IMHO that's nasty.

343 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:30:20pm

re: #333 Big Steve

Don't buy it...wear the tracksuit and head out for your chores and forget the dolling up.

In other words, be an American woman! (Female friends from various countries who live here have often expressed their downright joy that in the US it's perfectly socially acceptable for a woman to leave the house in whatever is comfortable... no need to get dolled up to go to the corner store.)

344 Jimmah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:30:28pm

re: #312 medaura18586

This is a simple matter of commonsense and public safety.

Exactly.

345 opnion  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:30:50pm

Just a thought, the point has been made that women wanting to wear the burqua should be unfettered & those that do not wish to should not be forced to.
I am just trying to imagine a scenario where a woman in burqua approaches a policeman & reports her husband for forcing her to wear it.
The police pay a visit to the husband & he says, "Officer, I fear that I have been a ruffian. Henceforth I will support Fatima in any way she wishes to dress."
Or in the alternative , he whoops on her or maybe even kills her to regaion his honor.

346 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:30:51pm

What's this "CounterPunch.org" site?

Friend posted this link about the possibility that the US could be behind the revolution going on.

Obviously I'm skeptical, and LGF is the best fact-checking site on the web.

347 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:31:21pm

re: #340 quickjustice

Red scarf is not your type, but Fatima . . .

Crap, I have to look at Newt Gingrich at the moment. Fatima, where are you?

348 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:31:32pm

re: #339 HoosierHoops

Seeing you makes me smile, {Hoops}.

349 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:31:57pm

re: #346 TheMatrix31
It's wrong. Didn't you hear I'magonnajihad? It's dah Jooos.

350 albusteve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:00pm

re: #342 Walter L. Newton

IMHO that's nasty.

agreed...I don't like that shit here at LGF

351 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:11pm

re: #334 quickjustice

Yes. Preservation of "modesty". Jewish and Christian women also are urged to dress modestly as part of their faith. Burkas are considered unnecessary for that.

My question: "The burka has religious significance?"

352 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:18pm

re: #336 pingjockey

You got WHAT? WHERE?

Dil Se (also called "Chaiyya Chaiyya")
From a Bollywood movie.
See Killgore's video post

re: #224 Killgore Trout
353 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:29pm

re: #346 TheMatrix31

What's this "CounterPunch.org" site?

Hard-left schtoopidity.

Which is why they're repeating Ahmadinejad talking points.

354 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:30pm

re: #304 Nevergiveup

"Soccer or basketball require running and jumping and these could damage (a woman's) the hymen," he wrote. "If she marries, her husband will ... think that her hymen was destroyed as a result of an (immoral) action."

I hate to speak ill of my gender but 99.99% of all men haven't the foggiest idea of what a hymen is, what it is used for, and what one feels like when patrolling that area.

355 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:41pm

re: #305 Cattt


Once again, THANK YOU founding fathers for the Bill of Rights. We really owe you guys a lot.


Cheers!

356 alegrias  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:44pm

OT OT

Nico Pittney of HuffingtonPOst was led into the front of the briefing room at the White House briefing & singled out by Pres. Obama solicitously to ask his question about some subject.

Fox News' Brent Baer

357 Dianna  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:48pm

If we're discussing hymens, I'm out of here.

But just to show I bear no one any ill will, behold! From Aristophanes:


[A wedding song or hymenaios :]
Trygaios : Come, wife, to the fields and seek, my beauty, to brighten and enliven my nights. Oh! Hymen! oh! Hymenaios!
Leader of the Chorus (singing) : Oh! thrice happy man, who so well deserve your good fortune! Oh! Hymen! oh oh! Hymenaios!
Chorus (singing) : Oh! Hymen! oh! Hymenaios!
Trygaios (singing) : What shall we do to her?
Chorus (singing) : What shall we do to her?
Trygaios (singing) : We will gather her kisses.
Chorus (singing) : We will gather her kisses.
Leader of the Chorus (singing) : But come, comrades, we who are in the first row, let us pick up the bridegroom and carry him in triumph. Oh! Hymen! oh! Hymenaios! Oh! Hymen! oh! Hymenaios!
Trygaios (singing) : You shall have a fine house, no cares and the finest of figs. Oh! Hymen! oh! Hymenaios! Oh! Hymen! oh! Hymenaios!
Leader of the Chorus (singing) : The bridegroom's fig is great and thick; the bride's very soft and tender.
Trygaios (singing) : While eating and drinking deep draughts of wine, continue to repeat: Oh! Hymen! oh! Hymenaios! Oh! Hymen! oh! Hymenaios, Hail, hail, my friends. All who come with me shall have cakes galore."
358 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:32:59pm

re: #352 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Ah ha. Thanks.

359 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:33:11pm

re: #346 TheMatrix31

What's this "CounterPunch.org" site?

Friend posted this link about the possibility that the US could be behind the revolution going on.

Obviously I'm skeptical, and LGF is the best fact-checking site on the web.

"Notable contributors to CounterPunch have included Robert Fisk, the late Edward Said, Tim Wise, Ralph Nader, M. Shahid Alam, Tariq Ali, Ward Churchill, Lila Rajiva, Peter Linebaugh, the late Tanya Reinhart, Noam Chomsky, Frank "Chuck" Spinney and Alexander Cockburn's two brothers, Andrew and Patrick, both of whom write on the Middle East, Iraq in particular."

Make your own decision.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

360 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:33:19pm

re: #352 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I positively adore the girl from that video.

361 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:33:27pm

re: #351 debutaunt

Believe it or not, the religious justification for the burka is to maintain female modesty. Is that concept foreign to you?

362 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:33:31pm

re: #343 Occasional Reader

In other words, be an American woman! (Female friends from various countries who live here have often expressed their downright joy that in the US it's perfectly socially acceptable for a woman to leave the house in whatever is comfortable... no need to get dolled up to go to the corner store.)


It depends on what part of the country. I know a lot of Southern women who won't leave the house without make-up. OTOH, when I visited western Massachusetts, I couldn't find a woman WITH make-up. I also think the South leads the nation in nail salons per capita.

363 BigPapa  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:33:32pm

re: #342 Walter L. Newton

IMHO that's nasty.

vermin = men, what I meant. But I can understand other interpretations. I gotta work on my nuance.

364 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:33:33pm

re: #338 DEZes

Well this is a bunny of a differant stripe.

OMG!
Jimmy's Attack Rabbit.
*runs straight thorough the living room window*

365 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:33:58pm

Why can't France legislate these out of existence? How many skimpy outfits do you see in Saudi Arabia?

366 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:34:25pm

re: #361 quickjustice
Any woman can be modest without having to be put in a bag.

367 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:34:27pm

re: #205 Shr_Nfr

Department of just plain stupid:

The Food and Drug Administration has declared that Cheerios should be regulated as a prescription drug. The government agency says that the cereal is advertised for use in the prevention, mitigation and treatment of disease.

---

There was a similar edict on Metamucil because it was also a soluble fiber that sequestered fats. Dumb. And these guys are going to run my health plan?

This is inaccurate. The problem is that Cheerio's advertising makes claims that the cereal has health effects, and promotes it as a drug. The FDA isn't proposing to regulate the cereal - they're telling the advertisers to knock off the comparison or face prosecution. If you make a claim for health effects, you're going to run afoul of existing regulations like this.

368 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:35:04pm

re: #345 opnion

The women themselves need to stand up for themselves and their rights. If your scenario were to happen, I would think a woman brave enough to report her husband as forcing her in a burqa would be able to pack a bag and leave. She can stand up for herself at home, or get help if she knows she will be punished. The French need to teach these women their rights and provide shelters for them should their lives be in jeopardy.

369 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:35:05pm

Wheeew.

We can all breathe a little easier.

The Iranians are still invited to clench their fists around some Hot Dogs at the White House 4th of July Cookout.

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Let's all relish this great step in tough diplomacy.

370 eon  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:35:14pm

re: #359 Walter L. Newton

"Notable contributors to CounterPunch have included Robert Fisk, the late Edward Said, Tim Wise, Ralph Nader, M. Shahid Alam, Tariq Ali, Ward Churchill, Lila Rajiva, Peter Linebaugh, the late Tanya Reinhart, Noam Chomsky, Frank "Chuck" Spinney and Alexander Cockburn's two brothers, Andrew and Patrick, both of whom write on the Middle East, Iraq in particular."

Make your own decision.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Moronic Convergence yet again?

/still seeking the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, no doubt.

///maybe

cheers

eon

371 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:35:41pm

re: #365 SFGoth

Why can't France legislate these out of existence? How many skimpy outfits do you see in Saudi Arabia?

Well, I guess they can. Would you like to see our government follow their lead?

372 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:35:48pm

Question: Should people be allowed to go nekid in public? I'm a bit torn on this. The extreme libertarian and cultural conservative in me gnawing at each other. The answer seems to involve the same line of reasoning as deciding on the burqa.

Hmmm...

373 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:35:48pm

re: #367 SixDegrees
IIRC, they're pushing the envelope with claims as to heart health and cholesterol.

374 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:36:06pm

re: #361 quickjustice

Believe it or not, the religious justification for the burka is to maintain female modesty. Is that concept foreign to you?

That was rude and crude.

375 beens21  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:36:27pm

It is sad to see current Iran.In 1976 I taught in Tehran,male and female in same classroom, not separated, very pro USA. Of the 45 or so females,aged 15 to 50, only 1 wore a chador( HS girl) and 1 wore a hijab. The rest wore blue jeans and form fitting blouses and t-shirts.And many of the women were quite attractive.

376 alegrias  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:36:37pm

Did you already discuss that Pres. Obama said today he stands firmly behind women's rights to wear burqas? Pres. Obama wouldn't want people to willy nilly "cast off the shackles of yesteryear" as Glynnis Johns sang in "Sister Suffragette" (Mary Poppins movie).

Slavery--just another fashion item.

377 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:36:39pm

re: #369 karmic_inquisitor
Goddamn our feckless admin and State dept.

378 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:37:03pm

re: #356 alegrias

OT OT

Nico Pittney of HuffingtonPOst was led into the front of the briefing room at the White House briefing & singled out by Pres. Obama solicitously to ask his question about some subject.

NIAC has the text of Pitney's question (which specifically came from Iran) and a video of Obama's utterly bullshit evasion.

Scroll down to the 2:08PM update.

379 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:37:18pm

re: #369 karmic_inquisitor

Wheeew.

We can all breathe a little easier.

The Iranians are still invited to clench their fists around some Hot Dogs at the White House 4th of July Cookout.

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Let's all relish this great step in tough diplomacy.

We should make sure they are "Hebrew National" brand kosher hot dogs.
What a stupid idea. O must have come up with it all by himself.

380 horse  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:37:34pm

re: #229 eon

See The World's Most Toxic Values System by Prof. Steven Dutch.

Thanks for the great link. Very interesting read, especially this paragraph;

The most pervasive block to technical progress in thar-dominated societies is more subtle. This attitude is related to a concept called "absolute scarcity" in the social science literature - the notion that all human needs are in finite supply and there is not enough to go around. Obviously such an attitude will lead to resentment of success by others. A thar-dominated society will never achieve equality, regardless how prosperous it becomes, because prosperity for the masses is a direct affront to the status of the elite.

The concept of absolute scarcity is prevalent in the policies of the left, an interesting connecting point.

381 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:37:51pm

re: #378 pre-Boomer Marine brat

NIAC has the text of Pitney's question (which specifically came from Iran) and a video of Obama's utterly bullshit evasion.

Scroll down to the 2:08PM update.

Should have phrased that as ... bullshit BECAUSE it was an evasion.

382 Catttt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:37:51pm

re: #372 medaura18586

Question: Should people be allowed to go nekid in public? I'm a bit torn on this. The extreme libertarian and cultural conservative in me gnawing at each other. The answer seems to involve the same line of reasoning as deciding on the burqa.

Hmmm...

The problem with that is the people who would walk around naked are not the ones you want to SEE naked. :D

383 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:38:02pm

re: #368 Sharmuta

The women themselves need to stand up for themselves and their rights. If your scenario were to happen, I would think a woman brave enough to report her husband as forcing her in a burqa would be able to pack a bag and leave. She can stand up for herself at home, or get help if she knows she will be punished. The French need to teach these women their rights and provide shelters for them should their lives be in jeopardy.

Not intending to argue but in my opinion there are no such things as "rights". What we regard as rights are cultural norms that someone will actually fight for and therefore society codifies in order to avoid the discord. Until someone is willing to fight for something it never will be a right and it can be taken without a moments thought otherwise.

384 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:38:02pm

re: #365 SFGoth

Why can't France legislate these out of existence? How many skimpy outfits do you see in Saudi Arabia?

I'm pretty sure France doesn't want to go to the extent Saudi Arabia does to impose a dress code.

BTW, I was wondering if I could get some of the links that you posted months ago for Goth clothing. I foolishly forgot to bookmark them.

385 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:38:04pm

re: #366 pingjockey

Arguing about cultural differences is a zero sum game. In Bahrain, for example, women are not required to wear burka because of the ancient pearling industry in the Persian Gulf. The men rowed the boats out to the pearling fields, and the women stripped down and dived for the pearls. It's tough to dive down to the seabed wearing a burka, so practical considerations prevented it.

386 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:38:23pm

re: #372 medaura18586

Question: Should people be allowed to go nekid in public? I'm a bit torn on this. The extreme libertarian and cultural conservative in me gnawing at each other. The answer seems to involve the same line of reasoning as deciding on the burqa.

Hmmm...

Most interestingly, does involuntary and nearly unavoidable exposure to the naked figure of strangers constitute a negative externality, objectively speaking, to be regulated? Extremely few of the people I see in the streets I'd enjoy seeing naked.

387 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:38:24pm

re: #372 medaura18586

Question: Should people be allowed to go nekid in public?

Five words:

Rosie O'Donnell and Micheal Moore.

388 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:39:57pm

re: #374 DEZes

You have a thin skin. She was repeating her question as if the concept of "burka" connected to " female modesty" were alien to her, and I was repeating my answer.

389 buster  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:39:59pm

Several years ago (I think October of 2000) I was in the Amsterdam airport. There was a young family in the adjacent line; a man, a woman and two young children. The woman was in a burka. This was the first time I had seen a burka in person and I took notice. The garment was light blue in color, intricately woven and had a slit which allowed her to see out. The slit also made it possible for me to see in and see her eyes. The look I saw reminded me of the final scene in the Vincent Price horror classic "The Pit and the Pendulum", where the camera closes in on the eyes of Elizabeth, trapped forever in the iron maiden. The look in that young woman's eyes haunts me to this day.

390 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:40:00pm

re: #387 Slumbering Behemoth

Five words:

Rosie O'Donnell and Micheal Moore.

*MIND BLEACH WARNING*
You forgot Helen Thomas.

391 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:40:24pm

re: #83 Sharmuta

As I said at #1- the burqa would be gone, the misogyny would remain.

On the other hand, once they abandon the burka, and find its not the end of the world after all, maybe they start to question other things as well.

392 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:40:56pm

re: #387 Slumbering Behemoth

Five words:

Rosie O'Donnell and Micheal Moore.

We'd have to legislate aesthetic crimes.

393 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:41:00pm

re: #388 quickjustice

You have a thin skin. She was repeating her question as if the concept of "burka" connected to " female modesty" were alien to her, and I was repeating my answer.

No, I do not have a thin skin.
It looked insulting, if I misunderstood fine.

394 alegrias  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:41:10pm

re: #361 quickjustice

Believe it or not, the religious justification for the burka is to maintain female modesty. Is that concept foreign to you?

* * * *
Modesty's a good thing.

The "Americans with Disabilities Act" might have a problem with mandating:
Blinders that limit vision;
Hems that risk tripping and falls & broken bones;
Billowing fabric that's a fire hazard;

Lastly, we're in a global war, so:
Billowing fabric that can hide weapons & identity? Too risky

395 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:41:14pm

What about my notion that you might argue it from the same POV that Affirmative Action was argued. I should point out that I'm totally against AA, I don't think you fight racism with racism. That said, anyone who is OK with AA should also be OK with limiting the freedom to wear this garb for a period of time assuming that it were pitched as a temporary measure to "level the playing field."

I'd have to be against it in the same way I'm against AA, but it is an interesting notion to bat around, IMO.

396 opnion  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:41:18pm

re: #368 Sharmuta

The women themselves need to stand up for themselves and their rights. If your scenario were to happen, I would think a woman brave enough to report her husband as forcing her in a burqa would be able to pack a bag and leave. She can stand up for herself at home, or get help if she knows she will be punished. The French need to teach these women their rights and provide shelters for them should their lives be in jeopardy.

I don't disagree with you in principal, but we have seen that woman often stay in abusive relationships. It can be for children, due to condtioning or culture etc.
If the woman is wearing the burqua because some guy insists, she has already made a concession partiularly in a Western country.
I just think that it is not realistic to expect lots of burqua wearers to narc out the old man.

397 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:42:04pm

re: #373 pingjockey

IIRC, they're pushing the envelope with claims as to heart health and cholesterol.

That's correct. A few years ago, there was a study demonstrating that eating oat grain lowered cholesterol slightly. Cheerios were used in the study, and the advertisers immediately picked up on it, featuring the study's results in their ads. Not a problem.

Lately, they've ramped things up. Instead of simply citing the study, they are now making direct claims that eating Cheerios will not only lower your cholesterol but will also reduce your risk of heart disease. This moves the claim squarely into the FDA's jurisdiction; if they persist, the FDA can either fine them or demand that their product - like all other drugs - be placed under regulation as required by law.

Most likely, neither will happen; regulation most certainly won't. The advertisers will quickly wise up and drop the claims, possibly issue a mandated clarification, and move on

398 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:42:09pm

re: #383 Big Steve

Big Steve! good to see you...
Somebody once wrote that we have certain inalienable rights as a human being. Somebody thought we were born with them.. And to paraphrase..Bastard Governments and Religions try to take them away...
Some things in this life you need not earn...

399 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:42:43pm

re: #358 pingjockey

Ah ha. Thanks.

(Psst. Don't let your wife see you watching that girl.)

400 alegrias  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:43:07pm

re: #378 pre-Boomer Marine brat

NIAC has the text of Pitney's question (which specifically came from Iran) and a video of Obama's utterly bullshit evasion.

Scroll down to the 2:08PM update.

* * * *
Thank you; also bullshitty was Pres. Obama pretending he had not "toughened" up his timid talk lately, because the GOP/McCain/Mousavi shamed him into it.

401 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:43:39pm

re: #371 Walter L. Newton

Well, I guess they can. Would you like to see our government follow their lead?

I'm talking about France emulating (in sorta reverse) Saudi Arabia. I have no idea what you're talking about.

402 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:43:51pm

re: #359 Walter L. Newton

"Notable contributors to CounterPunch have included Robert Fisk, the late Edward Said, Tim Wise, Ralph Nader, M. Shahid Alam, Tariq Ali, Ward Churchill, Lila Rajiva, Peter Linebaugh, the late Tanya Reinhart, Noam Chomsky, Frank "Chuck" Spinney and Alexander Cockburn's two brothers, Andrew and Patrick, both of whom write on the Middle East, Iraq in particular."

Make your own decision.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yikes! See, that's why I come here to confirm.

403 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:44:08pm

re: #399 pre-Boomer Marine brat
I can look, touching on the other hand, is right out!

404 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:44:22pm

re: #368 Sharmuta

The women themselves need to stand up for themselves and their rights. If your scenario were to happen, I would think a woman brave enough to report her husband as forcing her in a burqa would be able to pack a bag and leave. She can stand up for herself at home, or get help if she knows she will be punished. The French need to teach these women their rights and provide shelters for them should their lives be in jeopardy.

Exactly correct.

405 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:44:25pm

re: #372 medaura18586

Question: Should people be allowed to go nekid in public? I'm a bit torn on this. The extreme libertarian and cultural conservative in me gnawing at each other. The answer seems to involve the same line of reasoning as deciding on the burqa.

Hmmm...

The vast majority of people on this planet are gross enough *with* clothes on...

406 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:45:09pm

re: #393 DEZes

If I want to insult someone, I know how to be direct about it! Consider Sam Johnson's classic: "Sir, on pretext of keeping a bawdy house, your wife is a receiver of stolen goods!" ;-)

407 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:45:37pm

re: #405 SFGoth

The vast majority of people on this planet are gross enough *with* clothes on...

I'm not arguing with you. But should they have a right to flaunt their grossness in all its fleshy glory?

408 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:46:26pm

re: #368 Sharmuta

The women themselves need to stand up for themselves and their rights. If your scenario were to happen, I would think a woman brave enough to report her husband as forcing her in a burqa would be able to pack a bag and leave. She can stand up for herself at home, or get help if she knows she will be punished. The French need to teach these women their rights and provide shelters for them should their lives be in jeopardy.

If I said that, I'd be accused of thinking with my penis. What the French need to do, where's there's a credible report of husband-on-wife violence is take the MF'er out and beat the sh*t out of him. Tell him next time, he'll have to use a strap-on to prove his manhood.

409 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:46:50pm

re: #360 Occasional Reader

I positively adore the girl from that video.

You positively adore the girl FROM that video ?!?!?!?!

Meaning ... somewhere else now?
... OR! ... OMG! ... WHO'S THAT WITH YOU?!?!

410 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:46:55pm

re: #407 medaura18586

I'm not arguing with you. But should they have a right to flaunt their grossness in all its fleshy glory?

No

411 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:48:36pm

The citizenship requirements should include cultural training as I said earlier. Make sure all the women not only know their rights, but make sure they have the skills to get along without their men. Many are probably so cloistered that they lack some basic skills in terms of setting up a household (not running one, but finding a place, and other things that might always be done for them by men).

412 Jimmah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:49:07pm

re: #372 medaura18586

Question: Should people be allowed to go nekid in public? I'm a bit torn on this. The extreme libertarian and cultural conservative in me gnawing at each other. The answer seems to involve the same line of reasoning as deciding on the burqa.

Hmmm...

Here's one angle that occurs to me - this would create a flasher's paradise, especially given that most people would still choose to wear clothes nearly all the time.

413 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:49:10pm

re: #407 medaura18586

I'm not arguing with you. But should they have a right to flaunt their grossness in all its fleshy glory?

This could be the very thing that convinces children that abstinence is a good idea.
//

414 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:49:14pm

re: #366 pingjockey

Any woman can be modest without having to be put in a bag.


Thank you.

415 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:49:26pm

re: #368 Sharmuta

The women themselves need to stand up for themselves and their rights. If your scenario were to happen, I would think a woman brave enough to report her husband as forcing her in a burqa would be able to pack a bag and leave. She can stand up for herself at home, or get help if she knows she will be punished. The French need to teach these women their rights and provide shelters for them should their lives be in jeopardy.

True, but she would indeed have to be brave. She could quite possibly be shunned by her biological family after doing that.

416 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:49:47pm

re: #372 medaura18586

Question: Should people be allowed to go nekid in public? I'm a bit torn on this. The extreme libertarian and cultural conservative in me gnawing at each other. The answer seems to involve the same line of reasoning as deciding on the burqa.

Hmmm...

It's not healthy. No shirt, no shoes, no service.

417 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:50:20pm

re: #374 DEZes

That was rude and crude.

Indeed.

418 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:51:30pm

re: #415 Flyers1974

True, but she would indeed have to be brave. She could quite possibly be shunned by her biological family after doing that.

Or killed.

419 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:51:31pm

You can't go into a bank with a bandanna across your face. There can perfectly well be laws of that sort in France. No person (man or woman) may go in public masked and unidentifiable. When someone does appear in public so concealed, their garment will be confiscated and they will be given a paper garment which meets the requirements of modesty to the standards of France. When someone else is with them and in charge, he too will get a change of clothes into paper. And a fine.

Just as the British legislated Thuggee out of existence in India, and outlawed suttee and made it stick, so too can the French outlaw those aspects of current Islamist practice, nowhere mandated in the Quran or exampled in the hadith and surrah, of total veiling, female genital mutilation, and the like.

These practices are criminal, they ought to be outlawed, and France would be perfectly within her rights to outlaw them and punish infractions. The penalty for repeated burka-wearing should be that the husband or nearest male relative be deported.

The penalty for female genital mutilation, ah, one may imagine eye-for-eye justice, but it's just a bit over the top. Deportation after a ten year prison sentence will have to suffice.

420 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:51:43pm

re: #415 Flyers1974

BTW, since you're here...

Several threads ago, you asked what I meant by "gratification".
I came back much later, to close that window, and left an explanation.

421 eon  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:52:17pm

Well, I'm out for the evening. (Literally- it's been a long day.)

Good night, Lizards.

Sleep well.

cheers

eon

422 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:52:35pm

re: #410 SFGoth

No

I'm inclined to agree with you. Yet I find the full-budy/face burqa just as offensive as its opposite -- ass nekidness. However, my arguments against the burqa are based solely on utilitarian and consequentalist considerations (such as public safety, identity evasion, etc.). It doesn't seem right to rule on the burqa based on my moral or aesthetic considerations. Why should it be right to ban public nudity for those reasons though? I detect a subtle inconsistency...

423 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:53:07pm

re: #398 HoosierHoops

Big Steve! good to see you...
Somebody once wrote that we have certain inalienable rights as a human being. Somebody thought we were born with them.. And to paraphrase..Bastard Governments and Religions try to take them away...
Some things in this life you need not earn...

I agree that some things shouldn't have to be earned but inalienable rights become just that because it is assumed that there will be a fight if you take them away.

424 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:53:48pm

re: #418 spudly

Or killed.

I need to elaborate on this.

Honor killing is a legitimate concern here. Trying to convince women to do something voluntarily where they might have a reasonable fear of death if they comply is asking too much of most people I think. While I'm not in favor of the affirmative action argument, I can see a point there since it is not such a simple choice for these women if you try and put yourself in their shoes.

425 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:54:26pm

re: #407 medaura18586

I'm not arguing with you. But should they have a right to flaunt their grossness in all its fleshy glory?

First they came for the "muffintops"... and I remained silent.

426 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:54:35pm

re: #414 debutaunt

Thank you.

Modesty (male as well as female) is, and MUST be, rooted in attitude.

/my unsolicited two cents

427 Jimmah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:54:53pm

re: #407 medaura18586

I'm not arguing with you. But should they have a right to flaunt their grossness in all its fleshy glory?

No - it's too confrontational. Not to mention that it would take all the fun out of nakedness.

428 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:54:54pm

re: #361 quickjustice

Believe it or not, the religious justification for the burka is to maintain female modesty. Is that concept foreign to you?

Believe it or not. All modesty comes from the heart..Not a fashion statement..
To throw a blanket over a Woman shows a lack of teaching, trust, values and love...Most importantly...Love

429 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:55:14pm

re: #422 medaura18586

Why should it be right to ban public nudity for those reasons though? [ ]


Because one has a bigger gun?
One may be intellectually offensive, but really, it's not like watching a naked 400# "woman" waddle down the street -- that's hurl territory (not to mention incredibly unhygienic).

430 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:55:39pm

I have a very close friend who is Dutch. He tells me that the movement to the right in Europe is 100% a response to Islamic immigration. Sarkozy knows full well he cannot ban the burqa, he is just playing to his base. It is old fashion politics.

431 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:55:48pm

re: #426 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Modesty (male as well as female) is, and MUST be, rooted in attitude.

/my unsolicited two cents

Putting someone in a bag isn't about modesty. It's about control.

432 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:55:49pm

re: #416 Sharmuta

It's not healthy. No shirt, no shoes, no service.

I'm talking about public freedoms, such as walking on the sidewalk, or going to the park. No active "service" would be involved. Of course private businesses ought to have a right to refuse service to whomever on whatever grounds.

re: #412 Jimmah

Here's one angle that occurs to me - this would create a flasher's paradise, especially given that most people would still choose to wear clothes nearly all the time.

Yes, the situation would confer unequal benefits to flashers -- that's their positive externality. Good for them. But you can't ban something because it bestows a positive externality on some people -- only if it imposes negative externalities on others, you have grounds for banning/restrictions... at least in the classical liberal tradition.

433 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:56:31pm

re: #367 SixDegrees

Their next action is to strike the phrase "An apple a day keeps the doctor away" from the English language. Again, never mind that the claim is accurate. Apples also have solubile fiber and sequestor fats.

434 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:56:54pm

re: #428 HoosierHoops

Believe it or not. All modesty comes from the heart..Not a fashion statement..
To throw a blanket over a Woman shows a lack of teaching, trust, values and love...Most importantly...Love

The upding button needs a way to enter exponents, like my HP calculator!

435 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:57:10pm

This is a bit like the thread on Flyertalk.com about whether people should dress nicely in international biz and first cabins. I say yes, but of course, I can pretty much out-dazzle any male (and remain comfortable). ;-> (Every girl crazy 'bout a sharp-dressed man)

436 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:57:23pm

re: #432 medaura18586

Yes, the situation would confer unequal benefits to flashers -- that's their positive externality.

I wish they'd keep their positive externalities in their pants!

437 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:57:51pm

re: #430 Big Steve

I have a very close friend who is Dutch. He tells me that the movement to the right in Europe is 100% a response to Islamic immigration. Sarkozy knows full well he cannot ban the burqa, he is just playing to his base. It is old fashion politics.

Any more details from your close friend? What are prevailing native sentiments, esp. among the otherwise-liberal?

438 Catttt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:57:55pm

re: #361 quickjustice

Believe it or not, the religious justification for the burka is to maintain female modesty. Is that concept foreign to you?

Actually, no. It's to cover the meat, so that the ravenous dogs (aka Muslim men, who have no self-control, apparently) won't be compelled by their base natures to rape the women, which would be the women's fault, of course. NOT my opinion - this is what the burka pushers say.

439 maddyg  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:58:06pm

I think France has the right to make the burka illegal. Saudi Arabia requires all women, muslim or not, to wear a burka in public.

440 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:58:25pm

re: #435 SFGoth

I say yes, but of course, I can pretty much out-dazzle any male

Because... you're a female?

441 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:59:16pm

re: #427 Jimmah

No - it's too confrontational. Not to mention that it would take all the fun out of nakedness.

Not arguing with that point either. But we allow confrontational, even hateful, speech. Is full frontal nudity more confrontational than KKK speeches, which are nonetheless tolerated in the U.S.? Is there a qualitative upper bound to what degree of confrontation is permissible? Nudity crosses it?

Of course it takes the fun out of being naked, but a lot of legal services and practices take the fun out of many things.

Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate here... looking for a consistent approach to both the burqa and public nudity.

442 Jimmah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:59:38pm

re: #432 medaura18586

Yes, the situation would confer unequal benefits to flashers -- that's their positive externality. Good for them. But you can't ban something because it bestows a positive externality on some people -- only if it imposes negative externalities on others, you have grounds for banning/restrictions... at least in the classical liberal tradition.

The negative externality on others is very much in play here - consider the children who are victims of flashers.

443 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:59:54pm

re: #431 debutaunt

Putting someone in a bag isn't about modesty. It's about control.

There's a great little Melanie Griffith movie, "A Stranger Among Us".
Have you seen it, or heard of it?

444 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 3:59:58pm

re: #420 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks, I had to leave faster than expected, but saw it when I came back. The thread was dead by that time but I wrote a quick answer anyway... Didn't want you to think I asked and ran...

445 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:00:39pm

re: #367 SixDegrees

Also does this mean I get to deface their dumb food pyramids as false and misleading health claims? Yeah to make the claim they would have to run a clinical trial. First phase one on animals. Then phase 2 on humans and then a phase 3 double blind crossover for a couple of years and put in a NDA. I mean really. Solubile fiber has been shown to sequester fats and lead to lower total cholesterol. Oats have solubile fiber. The next thing they will do is to regulate water because somebody makes a medical claim that drinking lots of water is healthy.

446 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:01:28pm

re: #444 Flyers1974

Thanks, I had to leave faster than expected, but saw it when I came back. The thread was dead by that time but I wrote a quick answer anyway... Didn't want you to think I asked and ran...

Hell, I think I was almost an hour behind your question.
/VERRRY dead.

447 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:01:54pm

re: #440 Occasional Reader

Because... you're a female?

Because I'm a gothic male, which means, when I fly int'l F, I wear a top hat, frock coat, fancy shirt, etc.* Yes, that does tend to dazzle the ladies -- because it's :ubersexlich. F Beau Brummel.

(I dress down once we're at attitude and have a great scotch in hand.)

448 Catttt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:02:33pm

BTW, I see very modestly dressed Jewish women all the time here. They are mostly young Hasidim (hope I used the plural correctly) women, often with a child or two in tow. They cover their hair with pretty scarves, and they wear stylish, comfortable long skirts and tops with full-length sleeves. They look nice, not stifled, and personalized, but modest.

449 Jimmah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:03:35pm

re: #442 Jimmah

So just as the burqa in public enables certain crimes to be perpetrated more easily, so would public nakedness.

450 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:04:57pm

re: #448 Cattt

BTW, I see very modestly dressed Jewish women all the time here. They are mostly young Hasidim (hope I used the plural correctly) women, often with a child or two in tow. They cover their hair with pretty scarves, and they wear stylish, comfortable long skirts and tops with full-length sleeves. They look nice, not stifled, and personalized, but modest.

BTW, see my 443.
That movie is precisely on that subject, and is an absolute gem!

451 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:06:05pm

re: #443 pre-Boomer Marine brat

There's a great little Melanie Griffith movie, "A Stranger Among Us".
Have you seen it, or heard of it?

Not familiar with it. Rentable?

452 LatinGent  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:06:46pm

re: #428 HoosierHoops

Believe it or not. All modesty comes from the heart..Not a fashion statement..
To throw a blanket over a Woman shows a lack of teaching, trust, values and love...Most importantly...Love

It also shows complete lack of common decency. Where is the pride of a man who covers his wife with a sack? I love taking my beautiful wife out, and my pride isn`t just in her appearance, but I am prideful of that. The pride of these women is never even considered. How would they like to be introduced to anyone looking exactly like the next lady in line? But I suppose part of the plan is to strip away any personal identity. Simply awful.

453 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:07:17pm

re: #442 Jimmah

The negative externality on others is very much in play here - consider the children who are victims of flashers.

Yes, and on a common sense level, I completely agree. But it could be argued that it is mere societal convention that regards nudity as having a negative impact on children's psyche and development. Cavemen and cavewomen were naked in front of their children. It is hard to pin-point an objective, factual merit to the argument that strangers' nudity is harmful to children (provided no harassment is at play).

Consider, also, that standards of modesty have evolved considerably in the West. For example, I see people in Central Park every sunny summer day, sunbathing in their tiny swimsuits. In the Victorian era, I am sure the average Englishman and Englishwoman would consider it as a matter of course that such indecency would victimize their children. So what's acceptable exposure for children is by no means an objective standard, and in fact is defined by "American values," or "French values" in France. But I do agree with Charles that banning the burqa just because it runs counter to prevailing cultural sensibilities is wrong. Then shouldn't banning public nudity owing to those same sensibilities be also unjustified?

454 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:08:47pm

re: #449 Jimmah

So just as the burqa in public enables certain crimes to be perpetrated more easily, so would public nakedness.

If that argument can be supported, it would be more than sufficient for me.

455 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:08:54pm

re: #452 LatinGent

It also shows complete lack of common decency. Where is the pride of a man who covers his wife with a sack? I love taking my beautiful wife out, and my pride isn`t just in her appearance, but I am prideful of that. The pride of these women is never even considered. How would they like to be introduced to anyone looking exactly like the next lady in line? But I suppose part of the plan is to strip away any personal identity. Simply awful.

It is one small step out of a locked closet.

456 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:09:39pm

re: #451 debutaunt

Not familiar with it. Rentable?

If you can find it.
IIRC, from the 80s, and never a blockbuster.

She plays a hardboiled and hedonistic detective who has to go undercover in NYC's Hassidic community to solve a murder.

It's kind of a "coming of age" film. She does a 180 flip.

457 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:10:04pm

re: #450 pre-Boomer Marine brat

BTW, see my 443.
That movie is precisely on that subject, and is an absolute gem!

Thanks - just added to my Netflix queue.

458 spudly  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:10:34pm

re: #439 maddyg

I think France has the right to make the burka illegal. Saudi Arabia requires all women, muslim or not, to wear a burka in public.

France has the "right" to do whatever is in their power to do (within their domestic and EU constraints, obviously). That doesn't make it "right."

459 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:10:53pm

re: #456 pre-Boomer Marine brat


She plays a hardboiled and hedonistic detective who has to go undercover in NYC's Hassidic community to solve a murder.

And then, she meets Harrison Ford, and they live happily ever after in Amish country.

/

460 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:12:10pm

re: #459 Occasional Reader

And then, she meets Harrison Ford, and they live happily ever after in Amish country.

/

Dancin' in the newly raised-up barn.

461 EmmmieG  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:12:43pm

If burqas are a matter of modesty, and a religious matter, why don't men have to wear them? If my exposed face is sinful, why isn't my husband's?

When were there two sets of commandments for the two genders?

462 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:13:07pm

re: #457 debutaunt

Thanks - just added to my Netflix queue.

See 456, and IGNORE any promo blather which the studio might have put out. The original blather on the VHS box was utter BS.

This is the kind of film which the Stereotypical Popular Culture Maven would barf over.

/meaning, yes, it's really that good!

463 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:14:21pm

re: #459 Occasional Reader

And then, she meets Harrison Ford, and they live happily ever after in Amish country.

/

Heh ... not quite!

464 LatinGent  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:16:32pm

re: #455 debutaunt

It is one small step out of a locked closet.

I`m in small business, having spent 30 years dealing with the public. Many years ago some of my first customers were from Yemen. The man not only ruled the roost with an iron fist but made all decisions. After many years here his beautiful wife became `Americanized` and turned on him, and it was truly a great thing to see. She left that zero about 5 years ago and married a completely decent man from her culture that had been raised to respect women. They were at my wedding and are now my friends.

465 Jimmah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:16:54pm

re: #453 medaura18586

Yes, and on a common sense level, I completely agree. But it could be argued that it is mere societal convention that regards nudity as having a negative impact on children's psyche and development. Cavemen and cavewomen were naked in front of their children. It is hard to pin-point an objective, factual merit to the argument that strangers' nudity is harmful to children (provided no harassment is at play).

I agree with that on the topic od nudity per se. But I'm assuming in this argument that there is harrassment in the form of a sexual element to the flashing. The public nudity, while of course not legalising such behaviour, would provide opportunities for this to be done more easily and with a reduced chance of conviction - in the same way that burqa wearing in public provides opportunities for perpetrating and getting away with robberies.

466 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:20:54pm

re: #465 Jimmah

I agree with that on the topic od nudity per se. But I'm assuming in this argument that there is harrassment in the form of a sexual element to the flashing. The public nudity, while of course not legalising such behaviour, would provide opportunities for this to be done more easily and with a reduced chance of conviction - in the same way that burqa wearing in public provides opportunities for perpetrating and getting away with robberies.

OK, you convinced me. So a flasher would try to evade responsibility for his/her crimes by pleading that s/he was merely exercising his/her right to be naked, and there would be a burden associated with distinguishing "legitimate nudity" from sexual harassment involving flashing.

/good enough for me.

467 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:27:43pm

re: #437 SFGoth

Any more details from your close friend? What are prevailing native sentiments, esp. among the otherwise-liberal?

The Dutch are very conflicted on this. They pride themselves on being a very open accepting society and all they ask is that new countrymen accept this openness. However Islam is different, it doesn't accept the premise of an open society. If one looks at the numbers, the Netherlands will likely be the first western EU country to exceed 50% Islamic.

468 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:27:54pm

re: #465 Jimmah

Well said. I was trying to figure out how to convey that, but you did it better than I could have.

469 Jimmah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:30:20pm

re: #466 medaura18586

OK, you convinced me. So a flasher would try to evade responsibility for his/her crimes by pleading that s/he was merely exercising his/her right to be naked, and there would be a burden associated with distinguishing "legitimate nudity" from sexual harassment involving flashing.

/good enough for me.

Yep, that's it. Well put btw.

470 DEZes  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:34:20pm

re: #417 debutaunt

Indeed.

I am going to give him/her the benefit of doubt.
Asking if modesty was a foreign concept to you, looked like a jab to me, But I must be thin skinned. ;)

471 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:35:35pm
472 Catttt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:41:57pm

re: #384 doppelganglander

I'm pretty sure France doesn't want to go to the extent Saudi Arabia does to impose a dress code.

BTW, I was wondering if I could get some of the links that you posted months ago for Goth clothing. I foolishly forgot to bookmark them.

I've got one link - would also like SFGoth's links! - you might like.

[Link: www.myspace.com...] - she also sells on ebay. Go through the myspace link - there's a 10% off coupon! :D

473 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 4:51:59pm

re: #472 Cattt

I've got one link - would also like SFGoth's links! - you might like.

[Link: www.myspace.com...] - she also sells on ebay. Go through the myspace link - there's a 10% off coupon! :D

Thanks. Actually, I did some googling and found this one, which I'm pretty sure was the one SFGoth posted: Gallery Serpentine.

My husband has talked me into volunteering at Dragon*Con, where he is a director this year. So I get to attend free, and I'm looking for a costume. However, I'm kind of at a loss because the only things I'm a really big fan of in sci-fi/fantasy are Harry Potter and Buffy. Also, I can't sew, and custom costumes are expensive. Not to mention I'm not quite thin enough for the very skimpy outfits that most female characters wear (thanks to male artists). Any ideas that aren't too revealing or embarassing to my teenage daughter would be much appreciated.

474 Catttt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:00:10pm

re: #473 doppelganglander

Thanks. Actually, I did some googling and found this one, which I'm pretty sure was the one SFGoth posted: Gallery Serpentine.

My husband has talked me into volunteering at Dragon*Con, where he is a director this year. So I get to attend free, and I'm looking for a costume. However, I'm kind of at a loss because the only things I'm a really big fan of in sci-fi/fantasy are Harry Potter and Buffy. Also, I can't sew, and custom costumes are expensive. Not to mention I'm not quite thin enough for the very skimpy outfits that most female characters wear (thanks to male artists). Any ideas that aren't too revealing or embarassing to my teenage daughter would be much appreciated.

You might want to google Cosplay and Harajuku Bridge for ideas or inexpensive costumes. There is a WIDE range of dress-up costume ideas there, and they tend to be modest - plus they are VERY cool. :D

[Link: farm3.static.flickr.com...]

475 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:02:24pm

Gallery Serpentine is great stuff.
[Link: www.gentlemansemporium.com...] has mens and womens stuff. Pretty good quality - not as good as G.S.
I can dig up additional links. A little :ubersexlichkeit goes a long way.

re: #474 Cattt

You might want to google Cosplay and Harajuku Bridge for ideas or inexpensive costumes. There is a WIDE range of dress-up costume ideas there, and they tend to be modest - plus they are VERY cool. :D

[Link: farm3.static.flickr.com...]

476 Catttt  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:06:42pm

re: #475 SFGoth

Gallery Serpentine is great stuff.
[Link: www.gentlemansemporium.com...] has mens and womens stuff. Pretty good quality - not as good as G.S.
I can dig up additional links. A little :ubersexlichkeit goes a long way.

Oh WOW! That is an awesome site. / looks around for debit card.

477 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:07:36pm

re: #474 Cattt
re: #475 SFGoth

Thanks for the ideas. I love the Steampunk stuff at Gentlemen's Emporium. August Huntington may be a winner.

478 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:10:05pm

It looks like the ladies understand when I say I dazzle better than any other male... ;-> "The men don't know, what the little girls understand..."

479 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:16:54pm
480 SFGoth  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:20:25pm

re: #479 buzzsawmonkey

re: #475 SFGoth

I can't speak to the women's clothing at Gallery Serpentine, but a glance at the men's clothing just makes me sad. As one who has owned several genuine men's outfits from the late 19th/early 20th century, their stuff is a poor imitation. OK for costumes, I guess, but the cheapness and the emendation of what the clothes really looked like is pretty depressing.

Gallery Serpentine is a goth store, not a reenactor store. I've ordered two silky shirts and a coat, and I find the quality excellent. You're more accurate on Gentlemen's Emporium, which goes for a period offering. True, it's not "authentic" -- the vests have plastic buttons for instance -- but if you want real stuff these days, you hafta pay for it $$$.

481 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:25:11pm

re: #479 buzzsawmonkey

re: #475 SFGoth

I couldn't possibly afford what the genuine article would cost. And honestly, the real thing, especially for women, would be hot, uncomfortable, and restrictive - not what I want for Atlanta in early September. Genuine vintage clothing is marvelous, though.

482 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:25:34pm

re: #476 Cattt

Oh WOW! That is an awesome site. / looks around for debit card.

You should come to Dragon*Con!

483 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:29:36pm
484 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:32:49pm

re: #483 buzzsawmonkey

You are a work of wonder. I love the idea of teenage buzzsawmonkey in a vintage suit.

485 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:36:49pm
486 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:49:06pm

re: #351 debutaunt

My question: "The burka has religious significance?"

Wearing hijab has religious significance, and insofar as the burqa is a localized implementation of hijab, then it likewise "has religious significance."

487 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 5:51:55pm

re: #407 medaura18586

I'm not arguing with you. But should they have a right to flaunt their grossness in all its fleshy glory?

It's not the gross-looking people I'd be worried about -- it's the distraction caused by the HOT ones.

488 Bullskin  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 6:00:44pm

re: #3 Creeping Eruption

Who would have thought a few short years ago that we would be looking to the French as an example of a country with a leader with balls.

Right , and he also saw how in the past June 6th European Parliament elections the left was beaten to the ground, that Europe want the right thing, and what can he deliver to this people?, just what they want.

489 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 6:04:09pm

re: #475 SFGoth

Gallery Serpentine is great stuff.
[Link: www.gentlemansemporium.com...] has mens and womens stuff. Pretty good quality - not as good as G.S.
I can dig up additional links. A little :ubersexlichkeit goes a long way.

KRISTY MacNICHOL: Frederick -- are you, um, gay? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm totally liberal -- but the way you and the Pirate King are always flouncing around in those rather feminine shirts...
-- The Pirate Movie (Kristy's deliveries almost redeem it)

490 aaron's rantblog  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 6:06:04pm

A long overdue Charles Martel moment from the French. May it be followed with many more.

I think the French opposed to burqas should go around with bleach-filled squirtguns.

491 Flavia  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 6:35:03pm

re: #27 GORDON MAROCK

I think that Charles is right about wheter the Burqa can or should be banned outright. As long as someone wishes to wear it freely, they should have the right to do so. Sarkozy should enforce laws that prohibit face covering at places such as airports and while driving, but he should focus on exposing the problems with radical islam without an outright ban.

You said this beautifully. The French are notorious for doing the exact wrong thing to combat problems like this. A year (or so) ago, they answered the outrageous behavior of Islamofascists' children in French schools by banning ALL religious articles of clothing or accessories. IOW, the innocent along with the guilty. Stupid, stupid, WRONG & stupid!

492 Flavia  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 6:43:54pm

re: #104 doppelganglander

The poor kid just endured a flight from Malawi to L.A. I hate Madonna with a fiery passion for the way she thinks she can buy children like handbags.

I hate Madonna for her pimping other people's religions & cultures. At least the children will now we well-fed and housed.

493 bunny  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 7:03:39pm

How safe is the burqa? It must be difficult to see what is coming. Doesn't it obstruct your peripheral vision? Covering your head and dressing modestly are fine, but there should be limits. I read that one Saudi cleric declared that women should cover one eye so they would not be tempted to wear eye make up. They would be allowed to uncover the eye if they needed to examine an article while they were shopping. It's hard to tell in these closed societies who is coerced and who is volunteering to wear these things.

494 Mad Mullah  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 7:17:24pm

I agree with the ban. The last time I visited certain places in Europe, I was shocked and disgusted by the amount of fundamentalist crazies walking around. I'm not too fond of France, but in this case, I have to say to them- job well done.

495 sulupo  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 8:40:28pm

Sarko is using the hijab issue to distinguish himself from Obama, and also to offer up a stinging criticism of that aspect of his Cairo speech in which he takes a supportive position on the hijab.

His statement also came on the heels (I think) of his vocal support for the Iranian protesters, which also showed him as far more assertive of human rights, and far more courageous than his American homologue.

Let's not forget that the ban on the hijab is a long-standing part of French policy, and that Chirac was one of the hijab's most vociferous critics.

This said, well done, Sarkozy! (Of course, it is hard to enforce completely, just like a ban on hatred would be hard to enforce! But the French have done a pretty good job over the years of keeping the hijab out of the schools.)

496 sulupo  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 8:42:50pm

A long-standing ban on the hijab in public schools, that is

497 JEA62  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 4:26:07am

Since suicide bombers are now being recruited from womens' ranks, this is also a prudent move for security reasons. If you want to wear a burqa, go back to a backward Islamic country - this is the West.

498 Joel  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:05:58am

The President of France has more courage then the President of the United States. Wha ta a bizarro world we have.


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 Frank says:

Don't clap for destroying America. This place is as good as you want to make it. -- Zappa introduced "Billy the Mountain" by revealing that Billy and Ethel took a vacation trip across the United States, destroying it in the process. This was Zappa's response to the applause and cheers from the audience. Cleveland Colliseum, 1971

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