What Right Wing Extremists?

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
US News • Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 5:57 pm PDT • Views: 196

Some interesting stories from the past month that didn’t get much notice in the national media, on the nonexistent right wing extremist topic:

Clearfield County man pleads guilty to distributing explosives.

Perry Landis admitted that he sold illegal electric blasting caps to undercover police officers.

But he denied that his cabin in rural Clearfield County was a meeting place for militia members, instead saying he used it as a hunting camp.

Mr. Landis yesterday pleaded guilty in federal court to two counts of distributing explosive materials. He will be sentenced by U.S. District Judge Terrence F. McVerry on Sept. 11.

Mr. Landis could face anywhere from six to 24 months in prison based on the recommended sentencing guidelines range. The defense contends the high end of the sentence should only be 12 months, while the prosecution believes Mr. Landis should be sentenced consecutively for each of the two counts for a potential 24-month term.

According to Assistant U.S. Attorney Margaret Picking, Mr. Landis was under investigation, along with several others who expressed anti-government sentiment, by the FBI and Pennsylvania State Police. The investigation, which began in May 2005, led to several militia groups that operated under the umbrella organization Pennsylvania Citizens Militia. Ms. Picking said that Mr. Landis was part of the Brookville Tigers Militia and that the cabin was used for meetings. Undercover officers who infiltrated the group bought blasting caps from Mr. Landis for $2 each in September 2007 and March 2008.

Mr. Landis is one of five defendants charged with related crimes.

Alleged secessionist charged with gun, drug charges.

Federal authorities in Seattle have filed gun and drug charges against an alleged member of a secessionist movement after agents seized a weapons cache that included four silencers, body armor and a fully automatic rifle.

Filings in the case, currently before the U.S. District Court in Seattle, offer glimpses into the “sovereign citizen” movement and, prosecutors contend, militia groups loosely affiliated with it.

Currently free on bond, Andrew Steven Gray was arrested early last month after a lengthy investigation involving a Snohomish County militia shooting range, according to recently unsealed documents filed in U.S. District Court. Gray, a Snohomish man with a previous felony conviction on drug charges, is alleged to have amassed a 21-gun collection at a Monroe storage unit, as well as operated a 300- to 500-plant marijuana grow at his home.

Prosecutors also contend that Gray, 32, has long-standing ties to the sovereign citizen movement, in which adherents believe state and federal law do not apply to them. Through his attorney, Gray has denied membership in any such group; that claim, though, seems to be at odds with a letter sent to the court on Gray’s behalf from a leader in a Snohomish County secessionist movement.

“Regardless of the label applied or the specific form their ideology takes, their ideology fundamentally rests on the belief that the federal courts, federal law, and ultimately the federal government and all of its agencies have no legal authority to impose their will upon a ‘sovereign citizen,’” the FBI special agent heading the case said in court documents.

The bureau launched an investigation into Gray after a paid informant told authorities Gray had been shooting at a facility known as the Militia Training Center, according to statements from the lead investigator, a member of the bureau’s Joint Terrorism Task Force. Due to his previous felony drug conviction, Gray is barred from handling firearms.

Parsippany man arrested for weapons cache was converting guns to illegal weapons for profit.

Prosecutors said a Parsippany man who was charged last week with possessing an arsenal of firearms in his home allegedly manufactured and converted guns into illegal automatic weapons at his home and sold them.

Adam Coughlan, 29, who was arrested Thursday in a raid of his Lake Hiawatha home by authorities, also is a flight risk because he may have ties to the “neo-Nazi” underground, Morris County Assistant Prosecutor Bradford Seabury said during a bail hearing. Since the arrest, investigators have been examining Coughlan’s computers, documents and books, and found instruction manuals on how to convert guns into fully automatic weapons that are illegal in New Jersey and “pictures of neo-Nazi type literature,” Seabury said.

More than 40 firearms and high-capacity ammunition were seized during the raid from the Roosevelt Avenue home, and Coughlan was charged with three counts of second-degree possession of assault weapons with a high-capacity detachable magazine, and one count of fourth-degree possession of high-capacity ammunition magazines, authorities said.

A judge raised the bail to $350,000, up from $200,000, without any 10-percent option.

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1 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:00:07pm

Sovereign citizen movement sure is active these days.

2 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:02:31pm

Nobody hunts with blasting caps. Fishing, sure.

3 Steffan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:04:51pm

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Sovereign citizen movement sure is active these days.

Seems to be picking up like it did in the '90s.

How well does Holder know Janet Reno?

4 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:05:15pm

when right wing extremists decide to cut loose there will be hell to pay...I hope law enforcement is booked up dealing with potential disaster...armed, white fanatics are a nightmare

5 tubbyhubby  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:06:15pm

Maybe the guy IS a nut. Maybe he IS a public menace. Maybe he IS a right wing conspirator. But, please read this carefully.

Coughlan was charged with three counts of second-degree possession of assault weapons with a high-capacity detachable magazine, and one count of fourth-degree possession of high-capacity ammunition magazines, authorities said.


Compare that to:

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed


Is that a problem?

6 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:06:30pm

Thank you for posting this Charles.

Here is a partial recap of extremist violence we've seen since the beginning of the year as well:

Wednesday, January 21 -- the day after the inauguration -- 22-year-old Keith Luke goes on a rape and killing spree in his Boston neighborhood. He rapes and kills one woman, and kills the sister who tries to help her. He then goes out onto the street and shoots a passing homeless man. Police intercept him on his way to a local synagogue, where he tells them he intended to "kill as many Jews as possible during bingo night." He also tells investigators that he was fighting the extinction of the white race, and had stockpiled 200 round of ammunition to that end.

Tuesday, February 10 -- In Belfast, Maine, radioactive "dirty bomb" materials are found in home of James Cummings, who had been killed by his wife after years of domestic violence. Cummings was an admirer of Adolf Hitler; a large collection of Nazi memorabilia and a filled-out application for the National Socialist Movement were found on the scene.

Thursday, February 26 -- In Miramar Beach, FL, 60-year-old Dannie Baker walks into a neighboring townhouse where 14 Chilean students -- all in the US legally -- are gathered. He fires, killing two and wounding five. Those who know Baker describe him as a mentally ill man obsessed with the fear that immigrants are taking over the country.

Sunday, April 5 -- Budding white supremacist and recently discharged veteran Richard Popalowski shoots and kills three police officers following a standoff in Pittsburgh. They were responding to a domestic disturbance call. He believed they had been sent by the Obama Adminstration to take away his guns.

Tuesday, April 28 -- US Army Reservist Joshua Cartwright shoots and kills two sheriff's deputies in Fort Walton Beach, FL. His wife called police from the emergency room after he beat her. In the incident report, his wife reported that her husband believed the U.S. Government was conspiring against him, and was severely disturbed that Barack Obama had been elected President.

Wednesday, May 6 -- Stephen P. Morgan of Middletown, CT kills former NYU classmate Johanna Justin-Jinich, whom he had been harassing since at least 2007. A diary found in his belongings included an entry: "I think it's ok to kill Jews and go on a killing spree" and "Kill Johanna. She must Die." Justin-Jinich was Jewish, and the granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor.

Sunday, May 31 -- Dr. George Tiller is shot to death while ushering at his Lutheran church in Wichita, KS. His killer, Scott Roeder, is captured by police within hours. Roeder is found to have ties to several violent right-wing groups, including the Montana Freemen and the Sovereign Citizen movement. He had also been committing acts of vandalism against abortion clinics for years, most recently just days before the assassination.

Wednesday, June 10 -- Well-known anti-Semitic blogger James Wenneker von Brunn walks into the national Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC and opens fire, killing a security guard. Von Brunn had been prominent in Holocaust denier circles for several decades, and considered Holocaust museums to be a crime against white history.

We ignore the DHS report at our peril.

(PS: I don't know if the Morgan case involves any ties to any other organisations, so it may not belong in this list.)

7 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:06:42pm

Denouncing these charecters from the conservative movement is a given, but what then? What do we do to stop this garbage?

8 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:07:23pm

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Sovereign citizen movement sure is active these days.

Yep. SPLC is on the jump, lately. Lot of work for them.

9 Mike McDaniel  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:07:28pm

The question might better be: How many stories about left-wing violence are being suppressed by the propaganda press?

10 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:07:36pm

Hey, Guess what?

Man’s arrest leads Feds to look into training range

Clad in a dapper gray suit with a blue tie, a clean-cut Andrew Steven Gray, 32, of Monroe, sat in before a judge in a federal courtroom in Seattle Thursday and heard the penalties he could pay if convicted of the charges he faces.

For being a felon in possession of a handgun, he could get 10 years. For owning a machine gun, another 10. For owning an unregistered silencer, 10 more. And the 300 marijuana plants police found when they searched his home could net him 40 years in a federal prison.
...
Education center, not militia, says range owner

Faire also disputes the allegation that his range is a militia training center. Rather, it is an education center and a training center for security details, he said.

One of his friends used to work in Israeli Defense and has trained him and others how to provide defense, something they have put to use. “We provided the security detail for (presidential candidate) Ron Paul when he came,” said Faire. “And we protected Steve Perry for the Tea Party.”

That didn't take long.

11 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:08:23pm

re: #9 Mike McDaniel

I personally don't care what wing they are, nuts like this need to be stopped. The moniker is of little importance.

12 MJ  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:09:10pm

White supremacist blogger charged with threatening 3 Chicago-based federal appeals judges


4:25 PM PDT, June 24, 2009

CHICAGO (AP) — A white supremacist blogger was arrested at his New Jersey home Wednesday and charged with threatening to assault or murder three Chicago-based judges who refused to overturn local ordinances banning handguns.

Hal Turner, 47, a former Internet radio talk show host, was taken into custody by FBI agents who went to his North Bergen home with a search warrant, according to the U.S. attorney's office.

Prosecutors quoted a Turner Internet posting as saying: "Let me be the first to say this plainly: These judges deserve to be killed..."

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

13 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:10:07pm

re: #7 ArmyWife

Denouncing these charecters from the conservative movement is a given, but what then? What do we do to stop this garbage?


hone a reputation...take them down everywhere, everytime...they cannot shoot their way to supremecy...gun crimes need max penalty...the NRA has begged the system for years

14 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:10:23pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

For being a felon in possession of a handgun, he could get 10 years. For owning a machine gun, another 10. For owning an unregistered silencer, 10 more. And the 300 marijuana plants police found when they searched his home could net him 40 years in a federal prison.

Wait a minute - I thought legalization of drugs was a LEFT wing topic! Must be an equal opportunity criminal.
...

15 hazzyday  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:11:48pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

There's a pubic dump a little bit NE of Monroe where people go to target shoot at beer cans. The woods are thick with loonies. not the friendly Canadian types.

16 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:11:51pm

Detachable magazines?
oh the horror.

Nuts like this are just gonna get worse, its gonna get bloody sooner or later.

17 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:12:49pm

re: #14 ArmyWife

For being a felon in possession of a handgun, he could get 10 years. For owning a machine gun, another 10. For owning an unregistered silencer, 10 more. And the 300 marijuana plants police found when they searched his home could net him 40 years in a federal prison.

Wait a minute - I thought legalization of drugs was a LEFT wing topic! Must be an equal opportunity criminal.
...


for drama...full auto pot plants are fairly harmless

18 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:13:15pm

re: #14 ArmyWife

Libertarians are conservatives who smoke pot.

19 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:13:47pm

re: #16 DEZes

I get worried about the direction of this, too. We have a large gun collection - some that you can't purchase any longer. Of course, neither of us is a lunatic (well, not in this sense anyway), nor are we neo-nazis, nor are we felons. But if you opened one of our gun safes, these articles would lead you to wonder, I bet.

20 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:13:57pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

That makes more sense!

21 HelloDare  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:14:12pm

re: #15 hazzyday

There's a pubic dump a little bit NE of Monroe where people go to target shoot at beer cans. The woods are thick with loonies. not the friendly Canadian types.

Visit the place at night. They are probably using their car headlights to shot rats.

22 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:14:24pm

re: #16 DEZes

Detachable magazines?
oh the horror.

Nuts like this are just gonna get worse, its gonna get bloody sooner or later.

I'd bet on it...who will the targets be?...the feds?...Muslims or Jews?...there is reeason to be affraid

23 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:14:28pm
More than 40 firearms and high-capacity ammunition were seized during the raid from the Roosevelt Avenue home,

That's some dangerous stuff, that high-capacity ammunition.

/

24 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:14:29pm

Lizards thanks for the company.
I am getting Off here.

25 directorblue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:14:46pm

High-cap magazines are a crime there?

I guess my 33-round mags are a non-starter.

26 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:14:47pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Libertarians are conservatives who smoke pot.

I haven't fired up in over 22 years.

27 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:14:59pm

re: #5 tubbyhubby

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

...
except when it's proven that person's unhinged.

28 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:15:08pm

re: #22 albusteve

All the above? I hope not.

29 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:15:21pm

re: #15 hazzyday

There's a pubic dump a little bit NE of Monroe where people go to target shoot at beer cans. The woods are thick with loonies. not the friendly Canadian types.

I hope to never see it.

/

30 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:15:45pm

Well, after a quick google only 1 out of the 3 suspects has possible ties to the Tea Parties. Congratulations.

31 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:16:14pm

re: #26 IslandLibertarian

I'm a liberal.

32 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:16:51pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

bless your heart! ;)

/couldn't keep my fingers from the key board. ;)

33 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:17:30pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

I'm a liberal.

We didn't notice.
///

34 quickjustice  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:17:45pm

Oklahoma City Bombing. 'Nuff said.

35 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:18:00pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Well, after a quick google only 1 out of the 3 suspects has possible ties to the Tea Parties. Congratulations.


to whom?...did the tea parties manufacture these guys?...what are you saying?...liberalism gave us Joe Stalin...how does that compute?

36 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:18:23pm

There are freaks everywhere.

37 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:18:36pm

re: #19 ArmyWife

I get worried about the direction of this, too. We have a large gun collection - some that you can't purchase any longer. Of course, neither of us is a lunatic (well, not in this sense anyway), nor are we neo-nazis, nor are we felons. But if you opened one of our gun safes, these articles would lead you to wonder, I bet.

I was leaving but...
Most articles in these rags make it sound like having more than 3 rounds in a gun safe is tantamount to a hostile force ready to destroy a nation.
And cash is always to be seized.

38 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:18:38pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Well, after a quick google only 1 out of the 3 suspects has possible ties to the Tea Parties. Congratulations.

And again, I ask, please send your white supremest nazis to our Tea Party. The Bruddahs have some extra special "education" to share wit da buggahs.

39 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:19:31pm

re: #37 DEZes

I was leaving but...
Most articles in these rags make it sound like having more than 3 rounds in a gun safe is tantamount to a hostile force ready to destroy a nation.
And cash is always to be seized.

"arsenal"

40 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:19:32pm

re: #9 Mike McDaniel
The question story might better be
That's not even in question.

41 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:19:46pm

Were any of them caught reading Earth in the Balance or Prairie Fire ?

42 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:20:10pm

re: #36 bellamags

There are freaks everywhere.

{Bella}
Hope you are well!

43 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:20:21pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

I'm a liberal.

You give Avanti tingles. ;)

44 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:20:24pm

re: #35 albusteve


...what are you saying?


I'm saying that only one out of three has possible ties to the Tea Parties.

45 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:20:56pm

re: #9 Mike McDaniel

PIMF, sorry, forgot the quote tag...

46 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:21:00pm

re: #43 DEZes

I'm a classical liberal. I get the feeling Avanti might be more of a progressive.

47 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:21:31pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

I'm saying that only one out of three has possible ties to the Tea Parties.

So statistically speaking, a majority don't

48 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:21:56pm

re: #7 ArmyWife

Round em up and imprison their asses!

49 Joel  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:22:22pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

I'm a classical liberal. I get the feeling Avanti might be more of a progressive.

You're an Obama guy. No need to apologize for it or to parse it.

50 tubbyhubby  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:22:42pm

re: #27 tradewind
Then charge and convict him on conspiracy - thus proving in a court of law he is unhinged. I am still very bothered by the dichotomy betwixt arrest for possession and an unabridged right to bear arms.

51 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:23:05pm

re: #42 HoosierHoops

{Bella}
Hope you are well!

{Hoops} If I was any better, I couldn't stand myself. : )

but, someone stole a pile of hand towels from my shop. i know this doesnt sound like a big deal, but damn, if you can't afford towels, don't spend your money on tanning. go buy some towels.

52 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:23:08pm

re: #39 OldLineTexan

"arsenal"

Thats the point, thats how its always portrayed.

53 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:23:18pm
Prosecutors said a Parsippany man who was charged last week with possessing an arsenal of firearms in his home allegedly manufactured and converted guns into illegal automatic weapons at his home and sold them.

Yet they arrested him for having high capacity magazines because NJ has the "scary looking weapons" laws.

I love how they played up the "conversion to full automatic" part of the story and yet they couldn't find any evidence of this. If this dunce lived in Montana, he would never have been arrested.

54 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:23:19pm

re: #8 iceweasel

SPLC is doing great work! We need to be continually vigilant!

55 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:23:25pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Pre or post-LBJ?
The definition has morphed.
And not in a good way...

56 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:23:48pm

re: #37 DEZes

As luck would have it, there is no cash to seize what with my part in saving the economy by having 2 houses and a daughter getting ready to attend a private college.

57 Conservative Moonbat  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:24:28pm

Hal Turner was arrested again, this time by the FBI for threatening to kill three federal appeals court judges.

CHICAGO—Hal Turner, an intermittent internet radio talk show host and blogger, was arrested today by FBI agents at his home in North Bergen, N.J., on a federal complaint filed in Chicago alleging that he made internet postings threatening to assault and murder three federal appeals court judges in Chicago in retaliation for their recent ruling upholding handgun bans in Chicago and a suburb.

58 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:24:56pm

re: #7 ArmyWife

Denouncing these charecters from the conservative movement is a given, but what then? What do we do to stop this garbage?

You can't "stop" this kind of crap unless you start criminalizing thoughts and opinions.

59 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:25:34pm

re: #57 Conservative Moonbat

Gives a whole new meaning to the Turner Diaries...

60 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:25:50pm

re: #52 DEZes

Thats the point, thats how its always portrayed.

It is part of the plan. Google "Josh Sugarmann" in between Tea Party Nazis and White Supremacist loner losers and see the magnificence of a well-crafted campaign to deprive you of your rights piecemeal, one near-painless cut at a time. Oh, and if you complain or notice, you're paranoid. You see, like anyone preparing an ambush, they cut off your line of retreat.

61 Daffy Duck  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:26:14pm

re: #58 Wendya

You can't "stop" this kind of crap unless you start criminalizing thoughts and opinions.

It's coming, do ya think? Sometimes seems so, but then again, I might be paranoid...

62 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:26:20pm

re: #19 ArmyWife

I get worried about the direction of this, too. We have a large gun collection - some that you can't purchase any longer. Of course, neither of us is a lunatic (well, not in this sense anyway), nor are we neo-nazis, nor are we felons. But if you opened one of our gun safes, these articles would lead you to wonder, I bet.

If I lived in NJ, I'd be arrested and painted as a right wing extremist based on the contents of my gun safes.

63 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:26:28pm

re: #51 bellamags

{Hoops} If I was any better, I couldn't stand myself. : )

but, someone stole a pile of hand towels from my shop. i know this doesnt sound like a big deal, but damn, if you can't afford towels, don't spend your money on tanning. go buy some towels.

Always nice too see you Bella..I'm sorry to hear that my friend.

64 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:26:48pm

re: #9 Mike McDaniel

In this day and age information is free on the internet, and you can't cover shit up. If it were out there in any large quantity, it would be known. It's not like there aren't conservative bloggers who don't watch the left wing groups. I know I do, they aren't up to much lately.

65 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:26:50pm

re: #53 Wendya

Yet they arrested him for having high capacity magazines because NJ has the "scary looking weapons" laws.

I love how they played up the "conversion to full automatic" part of the story and yet they couldn't find any evidence of this. If this dunce lived in Montana, he would never have been arrested.

If that "AK47" was truly "automatic", he's up on NFA 1934 charges at the Fed level.

66 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:26:55pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

I'm saying that only one out of three has possible ties to the Tea Parties.

so what?...all three probably have ties to the NRA or Ben and Gerry's...it's convoluted and means little

67 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:27:26pm

re: #63 HoosierHoops

Always nice too see you Bella..I'm sorry to hear that my friend.

No biggie. Just irritating. Always nice to see you too.

68 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:28:49pm

re: #22 albusteve

Yeah, so much to hate, so little time. Ugh.

69 eon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:29:00pm

re: #3 Steffan

Seems to be picking up like it did in the '90s.

How well does Holder know Janet Reno?

Pretty well, I'd say, considering he was her No. 2 at Justice from 1993-2000, specifically tasked with prosecuting people under the various "anti-gun" laws the Clinton administration was so eager to enforce on anyone except actual criminals, like drug kingpins, etc., who could always get a deal for the right price (it's called "employing a law firm run by a Friend of Bill").

Holder was the one who said that "We're going to use this law (the assault weapon ban) to capture an entirely new category of guns." The guns he wanted to "capture" turned out to be lever-action rifles chambered for pistol cartridges, because many of them held more than ten rounds in their non-detachable tubular magazines. Such as the Navy Arms 1863 Henry repro, which held 13 .44-40 Winchester cartridges, the same as the number of .44 Henry Rimfire Flat rounds the original had held in the American Civil War. It took a Federal Court to explain to Holder that, by the definition written into the ban itself, a non-automatic rifle with a non-detachable magazine was, by definition, not an "assault weapon". Nevertheless, most such reproductions today are limited to 10-round capacity to avoid the wrath of ATFE. And Eric Holder.

cheers

eon

70 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:29:28pm

re: #65 OldLineTexan

If that "AK47" was truly "automatic", he's up on NFA 1934 charges at the Fed level.

It wasn't. They couldn't even nail him on that charge but that didn't stop the prosecutors office from throwing it out as if it were a fact. If that idiot were converting semis to full automatic, they would have nailed him. I suspect he was just bragging that he could do it (maybe, maybe not) based on stuff he read in books or on the internet.

71 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:29:36pm

Napolitano is prescient. A modern-day hero.

72 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:29:37pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

I'm saying that only one out of three has possible ties to the Tea Parties.

OK. Am I missing something here? Did a looney right wing person do something at a tea party that we should be concerned about? I haven't heard so just askin.

73 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:29:47pm

re: #62 Wendya

If I lived in NJ, I'd be arrested and painted as a right wing extremist based on the contents of my gun safes.

Simply owning a gun is proof of that, ask a libtard.

74 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:29:48pm

re: #58 Wendya

and I'm never going to get there.

75 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:29:59pm

re: #64 Thanos

In this day and age information is free on the internet, and you can't cover shit up. If it were out there in any large quantity, it would be known. It's not like there aren't conservative bloggers who don't watch the left wing groups. I know I do, they aren't up to much lately.

Exactly. It shouldn't be a surprise that rightwing extremists would be more active when there is a Democratic administration. Happened under Clinton, too.

76 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:30:38pm

re: #19 ArmyWife

I get worried about the direction of this, too. We have a large gun collection - some that you can't purchase any longer. Of course, neither of us is a lunatic (well, not in this sense anyway), nor are we neo-nazis, nor are we felons. But if you opened one of our gun safes, these articles would lead you to wonder, I bet.

Ditto.

77 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:31:11pm

re: #70 Wendya

It wasn't. They couldn't even nail him on that charge but that didn't stop the prosecutors office from throwing it out as if it were a fact. If that idiot were converting semis to full automatic, they would have nailed him. I suspect he was just bragging that he could do it (maybe, maybe not) based on stuff he read in books or on the internet.

Books were still legal last I checked, but you wouldn't know it from reading these stories.

A junior-high student who actually pays attention can destroy the neighborhood with the contents of the cleaning cabinet.

78 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:31:20pm

re: #35 albusteve

Liberalism gave us Joe Stalin? Whaaa?

79 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:31:22pm

re: #67 bellamags

No biggie. Just irritating. Always nice to see you too.

Sometime in the private threads I'll tell you a funny story about this girl and me in College spending Christmas Vacation at an Inn in Calistoga...
It's a bummer when all the towels don't fit in the luggage...

80 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:32:00pm

re: #49 Joel

No, actually I was a Rudy supporter.

81 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:32:30pm

re: #70 Wendya

It wasn't. They couldn't even nail him on that charge but that didn't stop the prosecutors office from throwing it out as if it were a fact. If that idiot were converting semis to full automatic, they would have nailed him. I suspect he was just bragging that he could do it (maybe, maybe not) based on stuff he read in books or on the internet.

It must have been the high-capacity ammunition that pissed them off, then.

/

82 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:32:46pm

And just how are the Tea Parties connected to this again?

83 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:33:06pm

re: #75 iceweasel

Exactly. It shouldn't be a surprise that rightwing extremists would be more active when there is a Democratic administration. Happened under Clinton, too.

repressive liberal politics just might have some correlation there

84 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:33:52pm

re: #82 voirdire

And just how are the Tea Parties connected to this again?

All liberals are connected to Obama, ;)

85 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:34:18pm

re: #78 Irenicum

Liberalism gave us Joe Stalin? Whaaa?


libralism, socialism, communism...not much of a difference

86 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:34:33pm

re: #83 albusteve

repressive liberal politics just might have some correlation there

Conservative repression:
shut up and get under the bus
Liberal repression:
shut up and get under the bus for your own good

87 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:34:46pm

re: #66 albusteve

I know many are intent to ignore it but this very well might end up very bad for the Tea Parties getting involved with anti-government militias and white supremacists. If one of these guys pulls off something big there's going to be political fallout.

88 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:35:06pm

re: #54 Irenicum

SPLC is doing great work! We need to be continually vigilant!

Yes-- I was on their mailing list for a while, I really need to start making more of an effort to check their site out. They're the whole reason I'd heard of the Christian Identity Movement or Sovereign Citizens or Joel's Army. Scary stuff.

89 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:36:05pm

re: #86 OldLineTexan

Conservative repression:
shut up and get under the bus
Liberal repression:
shut up and get under the bus for your own good While we smoke the tires

90 freetoken  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:36:05pm

While I am not surprised by events such as the implosion of Sanford, the existence of militia members who are becoming crime syndicates unto themselves, etc., what saddens me most is the inability of such a noticeable segment of my fellow Americans to accept and understand such.

I've spent the last couple of months reading websites that are not my cup of tea (so to speak) - really, I have avoided most partisan websites since the WorldWideWeb came into being. Even if only 10% of the population believes as, say, those who post on the FreeRepublic or Beck's 912Project website that would still be 30 million Americans with such twisted thinking. Furthermore, it would be nice to believe that the likes of Vdare or ChimpOut never existed but they do, and I have little doubt that millions of Americans buy into that kind of stuff.

Classic denialism courtesy of FreeRepublic, on one of the many Sanford threads:

Anyone else smell a rat in this whole Sanford ‘affair’ business? I mean, it doesn’t add up that Sanford would have gone up against Obama so aggressively on that ‘forced stimulus money’ issue if he had this skeleton in his closet. I’m wondering if there was another type of blackmail at work.


9 posted on June 24, 2009 6:02:17 PM PDT by raptor29


-

You're not the only one.

The timing was perfect, wasn't it?

12 posted on June 24, 2009 6:04:55 PM PDT by rabscuttle385


-

Well, considering that a local news station has some of Sanford’s emails on hand, I would not at all be surprised that Obama and consigliere Rahm are reading them, courtesy of the NSA.


18 posted on June 24, 2009 6:16:40 PM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner

Back in my college days campy humor was the big thing... but I'd bet that those three posters above are trying to be more than humorists. There is an element of belief there that is unhealthy.

How many times post 2000 election did so many lament the BDS of MOVE-ON or CodePink?

What the Freepers of this country have become is simple - they have become what they claimed they despised.

91 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:36:19pm

You want to stay away from anything calling itself a "militia". Typically, they're mostly FBI.

/

92 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:36:31pm

re: #82 voirdire

And just how are the Tea Parties connected to this again?

See #10. They guy from the second story Charles listed attending a militia training center that provided security for Ron Paul and their local Tea Party.

93 tubbyhubby  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:37:10pm

re: #78 IrenicumStalinism - derived from Leninism - derived from Communism - derived from Marxism. There really is no denying that liberalism, in the modern vernacular, did indeed give us Joe Stalin. Cry foul all you want.

94 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:37:12pm

re: #59 tradewind

I thought of that too. Scary stuff.

95 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:38:21pm

re: #77 OldLineTexan

Books were still legal last I checked, but you wouldn't know it from reading these stories.

All part of the dumbing down of the public.

96 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:38:46pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

See #10. They guy from the second story Charles listed attending a militia training center that provided security for Ron Paul and their local Tea Party.

Attended?

97 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:39:03pm

re: #91 OldLineTexan

You want to stay away from anything calling itself a "militia". Typically, they're mostly FBI.

/

Everyone at the bust is an undercover cop? LOL

98 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:39:16pm

re: #95 Wendya

All part of the dumbing down of the public.

Soon we will engineer Alphas, Betas, etc., in the required numbers.

99 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:39:26pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

I know many are intent to ignore it but this very well might end up very bad for the Tea Parties getting involved with anti-government militias and white supremacists. If one of these guys pulls off something big there's going to be political fallout.

Kilgore-- don't know if you saw this the other day-- google cache of Shawna Forde's blog about attending the Phoenix tea party. The minutemen scrubbed it from their site, but through the magic of google, here it is:

[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

She calls on Americans to "revolt" and signs off with "Lock and Load"

100 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:39:42pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

I know many are intent to ignore it but this very well might end up very bad for the Tea Parties getting involved with anti-government militias and white supremacists. If one of these guys pulls off something big there's going to be political fallout.


I know that and agree...but it's the other way around...the bad guys are getting involved with the tea parties...months ago I suggested Steele get off his ass and denounce these people...I do not think the average American has embraced the radicals...it is a problem tho and I've never denied it and eveen thanked you for the updates and link mining...it's just that you condemn us all for thew behavior of a few and I don't think that's fair

101 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:39:46pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

I know many are intent to ignore it but this very well might end up very bad for the Tea Parties getting involved with anti-government militias and white supremacists. If one of these guys pulls off something big there's going to be political fallout.

Hon, you spend more time at white supremacist websites than 99% of the people who've ever attended a tax protest.

102 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:40:08pm

re: #101 Wendya

Hon, you spend more time at white supremacist websites than 99% of the people who've ever attended a tax protest.

BINGO

103 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:40:34pm
“Regardless of the label applied or the specific form their ideology takes, their ideology fundamentally rests on the belief that the federal courts, federal law, and ultimately the federal government and all of its agencies have no legal authority to impose their will upon a ‘sovereign citizen,’” the FBI special agent heading the case said in court documents.

This doesn't sound conservative to me - it sounds like anarchy. Ay yi yi.

104 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:40:52pm

Isn't this truly a "law enforcement" matter, unlike international terrorism?

105 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:41:56pm

re: #96 voirdire

Attended?

6 degrees of separation applies to tea parties, according to some.

106 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:42:02pm

re: #104 voirdire

Isn't this truly a "law enforcement" matter, unlike international terrorism?

In its most virulent forms, right wing extremism becomes domestic terrorism.

108 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:42:49pm

re: #106 iceweasel

In its most virulent forms, right wing extremism becomes domestic terrorism.

109 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:42:50pm

re: #104 voirdire

Isn't this truly a "law enforcement" matter, unlike international terrorism?


whatever you call it, I want theese freaks rolled up and out of my face

110 tubbyhubby  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:43:01pm

You know, I always have liked perusing the wide range of opinions expressed here - even though I usually just keep my mouth shut and "lurk".

111 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:43:27pm

re: #106 iceweasel

In its most virulent forms, right wing extremism becomes domestic terrorism.

Why fret when they're giving Miranda rights in Afganistan?

112 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:43:40pm

re: #108 bellamags

The 1960's-70's is proof of that.

113 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:43:49pm

re: #110 tubbyhubby

You know, I always have liked perusing the wide range of opinions expressed here - even though I usually just keep my mouth shut and "lurk".

Its an echo chamber, the stalkers swear. ;)

114 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:44:31pm

re: #99 iceweasel

Kilgore-- don't know if you saw this the other day-- google cache of Shawna Forde's blog about attending the Phoenix tea party. The minutemen scrubbed it from their site, but through the magic of google, here it is:

[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

She calls on Americans to "revolt" and signs off with "Lock and Load"

Yeah, I saw it. It's just sad to see what conservatives are getting themselves into.
I'd say there's a pretty good chance of a Waco/Oklahoma bombing/Ruby Ridge type tragedy in the next 4-8 years. There's also a good chance it's going to be tied to the Tea Parties. There have been so many incidents already and we're only 6 months in.

115 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:45:30pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I saw it. It's just sad to see what conservatives are getting themselves into.
I'd say there's a pretty good chance of a Waco/Oklahoma bombing/Ruby Ridge type tragedy in the next 4-8 years. There's also a good chance it's going to be tied to the Tea Parties. There have been so many incidents already and we're only 6 months in.

Yep! Those damn conservatives.

116 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:45:39pm

re: #111 voirdire

Why fret when they're giving Miranda rights in Afganistan?

/So if Miranda goes to Afghanistan, does she need to wear a Burka?

117 DEZes  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:46:24pm

I am growing tired of miscreants whining that I should work harder to pay their medical bills, while they piss and moan about me being tired of it.

Take care Lizards, have a great one.

118 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:46:27pm

re: #116 Creeping Eruption

/So if Miranda goes to Afghanistan, does she need to wear a Burka?

Not if the flight originates in Brazil or it goes through France.

119 swampleg  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:46:29pm

What are "pictures of neo nazi literature"? This sounds like a Clintonism. Did he have neo nazi literature or not? Who knows what having a picture of something means? I have a picture of a swastika in my house. Of course it is on the front of a book about World War II. However, somebody could visit my house and honestly say that I kept "pictures of swastikas there." It would create a definite false impression though about my sympathy to such ideas.

Here is a great article in Reason magazine on the 'militia scare."

[Link: www.reason.com...]

120 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:46:48pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I saw it. It's just sad to see what conservatives are getting themselves into.
I'd say there's a pretty good chance of a Waco/Oklahoma bombing/Ruby Ridge type tragedy in the next 4-8 years. There's also a good chance it's going to be tied to the Tea Parties. There have been so many incidents already and we're only 6 months in.

Should people shut up, hide in their homes and put Obama stickers on their cars in fear of people like YOU painting them as extremists?

121 Mike McDaniel  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:46:54pm

re: #85 albusteve

libralism, socialism, communism...not much of a difference

The Great Truth. Liberalism, socialism, communism, fascism...different labels on the bottle.

But the same vile venom of totalatarian tyrrany within.

122 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:46:58pm

re: #107 Jim in Virginia

This guy is freakin' brilliant, isn't he? I hope my husband reconsiders his decision not to retire. I never thought I'd get to that point, but if he deploys under this idiot, he is in more danger than I can stomach - and I've stomached a lot.

123 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:47:07pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I saw it. It's just sad to see what conservatives are getting themselves into.
I'd say there's a pretty good chance of a Waco/Oklahoma bombing/Ruby Ridge type tragedy in the next 4-8 years. There's also a good chance it's going to be tied to the Tea Parties. There have been so many incidents already and we're only 6 months in.


you know damn well i have predicted that all along...but regardless conservatives are not to blame wehn people go off the edge...if that is how you judge the ideology you better look in a mirror

124 MJ  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:47:09pm

re: #99 iceweasel

Kilgore-- don't know if you saw this the other day-- google cache of Shawna Forde's blog about attending the Phoenix tea party. The minutemen scrubbed it from their site, but through the magic of google, here it is:

[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

She calls on Americans to "revolt" and signs off with "Lock and Load"

She's been on the Southern Poverty Law Center's radar a long time:

The Nativists Page 7


Shawna Forde, 39

Everett, Wash.
Preppy, blonde and fashionably coiffed, Shawna Forde doesn't look much like a grunge rock promoter or a border vigilante. Yet during the Seattle grunge scene's early 1990s heyday, Forde promoted and toured with several post-punk bands. Today, she's traded in her thrift-store flannel for a pantsuit, and her concert posters for Minuteman fliers pronouncing, "The Great Gringo awakens from siesta."

As head of Minutemen American Defense, or MAD, she straps on a yellow armband and carries a two-way radio to patrol the U.S.-Canadian border "against unlawful and unauthorized entry of all individuals, contraband, and foreign military." Acting on what she claims are "insider personnel tips," the group also has assigned members to patrol the Everett, Wash., main branch public library in search of suspicious-looking Middle Eastern men. Fortuitously, the library's windows overlook the Port of Everett, which MAD deems a high-profile terrorism target.

In the summer of 2007, Forde shared the podium at the Everett Elks Lodge with Minuteman Project co-founder Jim Gilchrist. Around 100 people attended the Illegal Immigration Summit at which Forde described her nativist awakening. "I was in the mall one day and, hey-- –– nobody's speaking English. I realized we had a serious problem. I just got tired of pushing one for English. I decided to do something about it," she said...

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

125 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:47:13pm

re: #110 tubbyhubby
It''s an echo chamber.
///

126 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:47:41pm

re: #100 albusteve

it's just that you condemn us all for thew behavior of a few and I don't think that's fair


The only crime I see is that people aren't speaking out. Contact the national and local Tea Party leaders and tell them that unless they publicly condemn anti-government militias and white nationalists that you won't attend. Have you even tried this? I can almost guarantee you that they won't do it because they know you'll attend anyways.

127 eon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:48:07pm

re: #78 Irenicum

Liberalism gave us Joe Stalin? Whaaa?

Try this;

Walter Duranty-Wikipedia

Other influential liberals of the time were strongly supportive of Stalin, even before World War Two, including FDR's advisor Harry Hopkins, Louisiana Governor Huey P. Long, and several leaders of the AFL-CIO. Put simply, they saw Socialism/Communism in general, and Stalinism in particular, as a "good idea", mainly because it was run by the "right people" (i.e., people like themselves) with no backtalk permitted from the "great unwashed".

Like Lincoln Steffens, a notable liberal journalist of the day, their attitude toward the USSR was "I have seen the future- and it works".

The problem was, they were wrong on both counts. Communism was not the future; like Fascism, it was simply old-time, Romanesque/Ancient Chinese authoritarian oligarchic feudalism with a new name and a stunning lack of foresight. (To say nothing of lousy fashion sense.)

And like every such system before it, it didn't work, either.

cheers

eon

128 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:49:04pm

re: #104 voirdire

Isn't this truly a "law enforcement" matter, unlike international terrorism?

aren't they handling international terrorism as a law enforcement matter and domestic terrorism as terrorism?

129 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:49:08pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout


I'd say there's a pretty good chance of a Waco/Oklahoma bombing/Ruby Ridge type tragedy in the next 4-8 years. There's also a good chance it's going to be tied to the Tea Parties. There have been so many incidents already and we're only 6 months in.

Agreed. I hope we don't have anything on the scale of Oklahoma City. I think it's very likely that there will be plots like that, and I hope they'll be thwarted first. But I think we'll see recurrences of Waco/RR type events, and I'd bet on the persons involved lurking on the fringes of the tea parties.

130 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:49:14pm

re: #125 Jim in Virginia

It''s an echo chamber.
///


It''s an echo chamber.
///

131 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:49:31pm

re: #91 OldLineTexan

I'm sure most are infiltrated. Thank God!

132 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:49:32pm

re: #128 Shug

aren't they handling international terrorism as a law enforcement matter and domestic terrorism as terrorism?

Exactly my point.

133 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:49:50pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

I didn't attend. And yes, I spoke out about it. To many, many people.

134 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:50:49pm

re: #133 ArmyWife

Good for you. If enough people did it there wouldn't be a problem.

135 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:51:37pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

The only crime I see is that people aren't speaking out. Contact the national and local Tea Party leaders and tell them that unless they publicly condemn anti-government militias and white nationalists that you won't attend. Have you even tried this? I can almost guarantee you that they won't do it because they know you'll attend anyways.

Innocent, law abiding citizens don't have to apologize for acts committed by kooks. Get it?

136 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:51:41pm

re: #97 Creeping Eruption

Actually, that WOULD make for a pretty funny comedy sketch!

137 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:51:58pm

re: #121 Mike McDaniel

The Great Truth. Liberalism, socialism, communism, fascism...different labels on the bottle.

But the same vile venom of totalatarian tyrrany within.

Do you believe liberalism and communism and fascism belong in the same bottle?

138 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:52:10pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

That should be the rally hat logo, then, instead of condemning all Conservatives to "freak" status who are going to shoot up restaurants at any given moment.

139 avanti  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:52:49pm

re: #43 DEZes

You give Avanti tingles. ;)

Wrong equipment list, I can get tingles from even far right women though.

140 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:53:13pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

Good for you. If enough people did it there wouldn't be a problem.

How many Tea party representatives have you called, contacted, emailed, cajoled or enlightened about this problem of radical infiltration by these groups and others?

141 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:53:41pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

The only crime I see is that people aren't speaking out. Contact the national and local Tea Party leaders and tell them that unless they publicly condemn anti-government militias and white nationalists that you won't attend. Have you even tried this? I can almost guarantee you that they won't do it because they know you'll attend anyways.


I contacted Steele twice and never even got a form back...as for locally there ha not been a TP here that I know of...and I did not know there is a national org...maybe I'm stupid but if you don't think this whole thing pisses me off you are wrong amigo...it does...I favored the TPs from the beginning and do't like it at all...it may be the result of conservatism but I don't condone extremism any more than you do

142 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:54:21pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

How many Tea party representatives have you called, contacted, emailed, cajoled or enlightened about this problem of radical infiltration by these groups and others?

And nobody from the MSM? Curious.

143 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:54:23pm

re: #135 Wendya

Do you see the word "apologize" in my post? Have the local and national leaders say that anti-government militias and white nationalists aren't welcome. Charles does that with his website. It's easy. But the leadership are Paulians and they won't denounce the nuts. Prove me wrong. Try it.

144 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:54:39pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

How many Tea party representatives have you called, contacted, emailed, cajoled or enlightened about this problem of radical infiltration by these groups and others?

what, and log off the computer?

145 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:55:06pm

re: #136 Irenicum

Actually, that WOULD make for a pretty funny comedy sketch!

I feel like I have seen that in a movie before. If not, it should be.

146 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:55:51pm

re: #137 Flyers1974

Do you believe liberalism and communism and fascism belong in the same bottle?

Fascism is and has always been a phenomenon of the far right. I blame Jonah Goldberg for confusing people about this. The new meme is that all liberals are fascists, hitler was a vegetarian, and so hitler was a liberal. (I snark, but not by much).

(Authoritarianism exists on the left as well as the right, of course)

147 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:55:51pm

re: #144 Shug
Heh.

148 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:56:08pm

re: #141 albusteve

Steele has no influence with the Tea Parties. He tried to get a speaking gig at one and the turned him down.

149 freetoken  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:56:31pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

Good luck.

150 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:57:16pm

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

151 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:58:08pm
“Regardless of the label applied or the specific form their ideology takes, their ideology fundamentally rests on the belief that the federal courts, federal law, and ultimately the federal government and all of its agencies have no legal authority to impose their will upon a ‘sovereign citizen,’”

Good luck with that line of defense you goofballs. America. Love it or leave it.

152 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:58:52pm

re: #127 eon

Assuming that wiki article is 100% true, how does that show liberals gave us Stalin? Didn't Russia and the backlash there against the conservative czars, among other things give us Stalin?

153 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:58:53pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Steele has no influence with the Tea Parties. He tried to get a speaking gig at one and the turned him down.

well I know that now...it's a mess...who speaks for me?...nobody that I can think of...but conservatism is my lifestyle not a 4yr meme...like I've said, I may be done with national politics...the GOP is a disgrace

154 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:58:59pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Steele has no influence with the Tea Parties. He tried to get a speaking gig at one and the turned him down.

The tea parties whole schtick, as I understand it, is that they're 'grassroots' and not beholden to a party. They've turned down quite a few elected republicans who wanted in, apparently. They want to maintain that 'independent' image.

155 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 6:59:57pm

re: #154 iceweasel

The tea parties whole schtick, as I understand it, is that they're 'grassroots' and not beholden to a party. They've turned down quite a few elected republicans who wanted in, apparently. They want to maintain that 'independent' image.

"Grassroots" is in. Ask George Soros.

156 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:00:17pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Steele has no influence with the Tea Parties. He tried to get a speaking gig at one and the turned him down.


Maybe he smells.

157 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:00:23pm

re: #150 Shug

Even when they say stuff we don't like. To KT's point, however, the Republican party ought to do the right thing, and that is acknowledge the Ron Paulian's right to say dumbass things, but it is in no way reflective of the Republican party as a whole. In fact, Mr. Ron Paul ought to be kicked to the curb and forced to form his own crazywing party so we can identify the nuts appropriately instead of sullying the Republican brand.

158 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:01:23pm

re: #157 ArmyWife

Even when they say stuff we don't like. To KT's point, however, the Republican party ought to do the right thing, and that is acknowledge the Ron Paulian's right to say dumbass things, but it is in no way reflective of the Republican party as a whole. In fact, Mr. Ron Paul ought to be kicked to the curb and forced to form his own crazywing party so we can identify the nuts appropriately instead of sullying the Republican brand.


Amen.

159 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:01:35pm

Walter...Are you here?

160 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:01:43pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

Do you see the word "apologize" in my post? Have the local and national leaders say that anti-government militias and white nationalists aren't welcome. Charles does that with his website. It's easy. But the leadership are Paulians and they won't denounce the nuts. Prove me wrong. Try it.

You are completely consumed by this. What you want, Killgore, is for conservatives to stand up and denounce extremists and take ownership of fringe kooks. That's like demanding that I stand up and publicly denounce every crime committed with a firearm because I'm a gun owner. How much fucking time is in each day for me to stand on the street screaming to the heavens about criminals?

I don't give a shit what the Paulinians do. I didn't vote for THEIR candidate any more than I voted for Obama. And contrary to your belief, we're not going to police and remove people who don't agree with us on the public square. We didn't chase off the Code Pink nutter and we're not going to chase off anyone else who is exercising their rights. We will isolate ourselves from any person who is off message but we're not going to be like the left and impose ideological purity on anyone. That is not what this country is about.

161 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:01:50pm
162 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:02:09pm

re: #146 iceweasel

Fascism is and has always been a phenomenon of the far right. I blame Jonah Goldberg for confusing people about this. The new meme is that all liberals are fascists, hitler was a vegetarian, and so hitler was a liberal. (I snark, but not by much).

(Authoritarianism exists on the left as well as the right, of course)


fascism is a horse of a different color...I don't see the meme used against liberals as defined as it was with Bush...not by a wide margin...yet anyways

163 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:02:33pm

re: #157 ArmyWife

Even when they say stuff we don't like. To KT's point, however, the Republican party ought to do the right thing, and that is acknowledge the Ron Paulian's right to say dumbass things, but it is in no way reflective of the Republican party as a whole. In fact, Mr. Ron Paul ought to be kicked to the curb and forced to form his own crazywing party so we can identify the nuts appropriately instead of sullying the Republican brand.

He got more attention as a Republican. He got nada when he was dallying in the Liberation ranks.

164 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:02:53pm

It's time for the Obama propaganda hour on ABC.

/no opposition point of view allowed

165 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:03:02pm

Y'all want to have some fun? Google "MIAC Strategic Report". See what those "white males" are up to!

I won't link it because I think some of the sites hosting copies are probably fronts for something else, and Lord knows I have enough idjits and evil people tarred to my tail as it is.

166 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:03:10pm

re: #160 Wendya

You are completely consumed by this. What you want, Killgore, is for conservatives to stand up and denounce extremists and take ownership of fringe kooks. That's like demanding that I stand up and publicly denounce every crime committed with a firearm because I'm a gun owner. How much fucking time is in each day for me to stand on the street screaming to the heavens about criminals?

I don't give a shit what the Paulinians do. I didn't vote for THEIR candidate any more than I voted for Obama. And contrary to your belief, we're not going to police and remove people who don't agree with us on the public square. We didn't chase off the Code Pink nutter and we're not going to chase off anyone else who is exercising their rights. We will isolate ourselves from any person who is off message but we're not going to be like the left and impose ideological purity on anyone. That is not what this country is about.

Maybe the Dems can show us how it's done.

167 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:03:14pm

What would be said of Patrick Henry today.

just curious.re: #157 ArmyWife

Even when they say stuff we don't like. To KT's point, however, the Republican party ought to do the right thing, and that is acknowledge the Ron Paulian's right to say dumbass things, but it is in no way reflective of the Republican party as a whole. In fact, Mr. Ron Paul ought to be kicked to the curb and forced to form his own crazywing party so we can identify the nuts appropriately instead of sullying the Republican brand.


so the whole Big Tent thing is only for the right kind of deviants?

I'd prefer to let the voters decide.
Ron Paul keeps getting elected.
In fair elections, he wins reelection, as does Robert Byrd and Pete Stark and other vile creatures in the US Congress

I'm not a fan of any of them at the moment.

168 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:03:15pm

re: #154 iceweasel

The tea parties whole schtick, as I understand it, is that they're 'grassroots' and not beholden to a party... They want to maintain that 'independent' image.

They got the Glenn Beck line down to a tee. Nyuck, nyuck

169 Afrocity  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:03:35pm

I am watching the ABC health care infomercial. This is such a farce. Obama has turned the presidency into a publicity stunt.

170 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:03:51pm
171 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:04:02pm

re: #161 Iron Fist

40 guns and "high capacity ammunition" by which I assume that they mean high-capacity magizines that are Unconstitutionally restricted in the State of New Jersy. I don't know what it is now, but $100,000 used to be the average bail for first degree homicide in some states.

This seems, to be blunt, a bit hysterical of an overreaction to something that shouldn't be a crime. Possibly isn't really a crime, depending on what his lawyers do, and the Courts decide. I wonder if the ACLU will support a Second Amnedment case here?

Thou hast made a funny.

172 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:05:14pm

re: #146 iceweasel

Fascism is and has always been a phenomenon of the far right. I blame Jonah Goldberg for confusing people about this. The new meme is that all liberals are fascists, hitler was a vegetarian, and so hitler was a liberal. (I snark, but not by much).

(Authoritarianism exists on the left as well as the right, of course)

You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it logically fit. Take a look at Mussolini's economic fascism and compare it to Reagan. See a lot of similarities? Now compare it to FDR. Take a look at how the left demands ideological purity in word and deed and compare that to disorganized conservatives.

173 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:05:24pm

re: #169 Afrocity

I am watching the ABC health care infomercial. This is such a farce. Obama has turned the presidency into a publicity stunt.

Just switched it. Now I'm watching. I don't know if I can handle it.

174 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:05:43pm

re: #157 ArmyWife

Ron Paul ought to be kicked to the curb and forced to form his own crazywing party so we can identify the nuts appropriately instead of sullying the Republican brand.


He runs in the Republican primary and wins. Unfortunately, we can't kick him out of the party. We can and should call his nuttiness for what it is.

175 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:06:06pm

re: #170 Iron Fist

The Left gave usd Stalin. Are you really stupid enough to argue that Stalin wasn't Left Wing? What about Lenin, or the Left's favorite mass murderer Che? Denying history won't make it go away.

I love that.

176 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:06:33pm

re: #169 Afrocity

I am watching the ABC health care infomercial. This is such a farce. Obama has turned the presidency into a publicity stunt.

Agreed. I'll watch as much of it as I can stomach. I hope the TOTUS suffers a blue screen crash tonight.

177 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:06:40pm

Obama's healthcare plans make me ill.

and he hasn't even passed anything yet.

178 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:06:50pm

re: #175 bellamags

I love that.

You want history to go away? Control the schools.

/oops

179 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:07:05pm

Way OT

Charlie Parker fans?
Complete Savoy & Dial Studio Recordings 1944-1948 on the Amazon Gold Box deal for a while longer at 60% off.

180 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:07:35pm

re: #179 Silvergirl

Way OT

Charlie Parker fans?
Complete Savoy & Dial Studio Recordings 1944-1948 on the Amazon Gold Box deal for a while longer at 60% off.

teh bird was teh coolest kitteh

181 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:07:58pm

re: #178 OldLineTexan

You want history to go away? Control the schools.

/oops

Yep. Right on. My dad used to say, never underestimate the power of a bunch of idiots with books.

182 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:08pm

re: #173 bellamags

Just switched it. Now I'm watching. I don't know if I can handle it.

Don't...

get...

sick...

183 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:13pm

re: #162 albusteve

fascism is a horse of a different color...I don't see the meme used against liberals as defined as it was with Bush...not by a wide margin...yet anyways

It's out there. Jonah Goldberg from NRO wrote a best selling book called "Liberal Fascism". The meme that liberals are fascists has been spreading through the right blogosphere for some time.

And I agree with you -- it's just as stupid to apply it to liberals, as it was to apply it to Bush.

184 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:24pm

re: #164 Killian Bundy

It's time for the Obama propaganda hour on ABC.

/no opposition point of view allowed

Being overshadowed by the GOP strategist...Gov. Mark Sanford.
/

185 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:42pm

re: #181 bellamags

Yep. Right on. My dad used to say, never underestimate the power of a bunch of idiots with books.

LOL

186 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:47pm

re: #182 jcm

Don't...

get...

sick...

Just remain calm and concentrate. Follow the money.

187 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:48pm
188 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:53pm

Here's what puzzles me. Of the 11 extremist cases outlined on this thread (3 in the main article, 8 in iceweasel's list) only one of them...the murder of Dr. Tiller...took place in the "heartland." The others are East Coast, New Jersey, and Seattle.

The stereotype of militias, that I've seen, is that their main territory is the sparse countryside of the West and Midwest. Why are nearly all these latest examples in Blue, or Blue-ish states? Anybody have a theory, or is it coincidence?

189 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:58pm

re: #184 jorline

Being overshadowed by the GOP strategist...Gov. Mark Sanford.
/

LOOK, A SHINY THING!

/

190 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:08:58pm

re: #166 voirdire

Maybe the Dems can show us how it's done.

Nope, they get a pass, sorry. It's OK to have crazy tree sitters, commie pinko lesbian military hating vegetarians, tyrant hugging America-hating anti-war psychos and many other types of nuts and flakes...that IS the Democrat party.

Now, the Republicans on the other hand, are nothing but racists, gun loving, bible thumping, Paulian infused, JBS-believing right wing extremists. In fact, the Republicans are so bad and evil and out of touch, they should just STFU and go away until they can say something nice about our beloved President.

/

191 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:09:25pm

re: #184 jorline

Being overshadowed by the GOP strategist...Gov. Mark Sanford.
/


He took the bullet.

192 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:09:42pm
193 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:09:58pm

re: #184 jorline

Being overshadowed by the GOP strategist...Gov. Mark Sanford.
/

Maybe Sanford's Chicka has a sister? We can hook up Obama and make a double date scandal?

194 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:10:19pm

re: #167 Shug

I respect your views, but I am not a big tenter. I hate the concept of big tent. I don't want a bunch of little groups with their own agendas, that's what the Dems have. I want those who believe in the core ideas of the Republican party - outside of that, I'm open and flexible on most issues. Of course, we have to REMEMBER what the core principals are at this point...

195 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:10:55pm

re: #191 voirdire

He took the bullet.

heh

196 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:11:10pm

re: #193 Desert Dog

Maybe Sanford's Chicka has a sister? We can hook up Obama and make a double date scandal?


You kidding? Remember that look Michelle gave what's-her-name?

197 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:11:30pm

re: #188 ShanghaiEd

Here's what puzzles me. Of the 11 extremist cases outlined on this thread (3 in the main article, 8 in iceweasel's list) only one of them...the murder of Dr. Tiller...took place in the "heartland." The others are East Coast, New Jersey, and Seattle.

The stereotype of militias, that I've seen, is that their main territory is the sparse countryside of the West and Midwest. Why are nearly all these latest examples in Blue, or Blue-ish states? Anybody have a theory, or is it coincidence?

People in flyover country are slower and dumber than Left and Right coasters?

/

198 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:11:30pm
199 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:12:05pm

re: #172 Wendya

You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it logically fit. Take a look at Mussolini's economic fascism and compare it to Reagan. See a lot of similarities? Now compare it to FDR. Take a look at how the left demands ideological purity in word and deed and compare that to disorganized conservatives.

Here is a statement by Mussolini, arguably the definitive statement of fascism, when others wanted to know policy specifics from him:

"The democrats of Il Mondo want to know our program? It is to break the bones of the democrats of Il Mondo. And the sooner the better."

Fascism is profoundly illiberal.

BTW, it would come as quite a surprise to people on the american 'left' to know that they demand ideological purity. As the saying goes, ask 3 liberals, get 4 opinions.

200 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:12:31pm

re: #194 ArmyWife

I respect your views, but I am not a big tenter. I hate the concept of big tent. I don't want a bunch of little groups with their own agendas, that's what the Dems have. I want those who believe in the core ideas of the Republican party - outside of that, I'm open and flexible on most issues. Of course, we have to REMEMBER what the core principals are at this point...


I'm not a big tenter either. I think we agree completely on this issue.
Big tent is a losing strategy.

201 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:12:52pm

This Obamacare thing is LAME. I really hope most people watching this realizes what a SHAM this is. Snake oil salesmanish.

202 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:12:58pm

The heinous murder of Tiller by a nutjub still gets time in the MSM.

The heinous murder of a soldier and the wounding of another outside a recruiting station by a prison-convert Muslim - nothing.

203 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:13:21pm

re: #183 iceweasel

It's out there. Jonah Goldberg from NRO wrote a best selling book called "Liberal Fascism". The meme that liberals are fascists has been spreading through the right blogosphere for some time.

And I agree with you -- it's just as stupid to apply it to liberals, as it was to apply it to Bush.

I read it...as much as I like JG I think he's reaching and trying to redefine classical fascism to something useable contemporarily...I did not get the stiffy I was promised...more like ho hum

204 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:13:42pm

re: #201 bellamags

This Obamacare thing is LAME. I really hope most people watching this realizes what a SHAM this is. Snake oil salesmanish.

But it's FREE!

need I?
Just to be sure...
///

205 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:13:55pm
206 Wendya  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:14:03pm

re: #199 iceweasel

Fascism is profoundly illiberal.

BTW, it would come as quite a surprise to people on the american 'left' to know that they demand ideological purity. As the saying goes, ask 3 liberals, get 4 opinions.

I don't care about quotes, I'm interested in actions. If you compare Mussolini to Reagan and then to FDR, where do you find the most similarities?

207 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:14:04pm

re: #169 Afrocity

Flip that dial. Two suggestions that are not all that unrelated to the infomercial: AMC has 'Terminator 3: Rise of the Chicago political Machines, and the peacock is airing the pilot of their new series, ' The Philanderer ' Philanthropist'.
It's almost as if they knew we'd be channel surfing.

208 Afrocity  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:14:39pm

re: #173 bellamags

Just switched it. Now I'm watching. I don't know if I can handle it.

It is already boring the hell out of me.

209 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:14:40pm

re: #202 Van Helsing

The heinous murder of Tiller by a nutjub still gets time in the MSM.

The heinous murder of a soldier and the wounding of another outside a recruiting station by a prison-convert Muslim - nothing.

Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown.

210 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:14:45pm

re: #170 Iron Fist

The Left gave usd Stalin. Are you really stupid enough to argue that Stalin wasn't Left Wing? What about Lenin, or the Left's favorite mass murderer Che? Denying history won't make it go away.

This is intellectual dishonesty on your part. Not cool. My post questioned whether liberals gave us Stalin. It did not challenge the well known fact that Stalin was left wing. This is the equivalent of you challenging the notion that consevatives gave us Hitler, and me questioning your intelligence in denying that Hitler was right wing.

211 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:15:02pm

re: #207 tradewind

212 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:15:25pm

re: #194 ArmyWife

we have to REMEMBER agree on what the core principals are at this point...


One VERRRY little problem...

213 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:15:32pm

re: #189 OldLineTexan

LOOK, A SHINY THING!

/

Hey OLT, good to see ya.

I like the new avatar...give me the story on the pic.

214 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:15:48pm

re: #211 jcm

eloquently put

215 albusteve  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:15:58pm

I'm outski...
but I give KT points for tenacity

216 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:16:10pm

re: #208 Afrocity

It is already boring the hell out of me.

Yep, its typical BHO BS. "Hope! Change! We can't keep going the way we've been going! I blame Bush!"

217 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:16:10pm

re: #211 jcm

re: #207 tradewind

Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines

Spoiler...

The Machine did it...

218 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:16:31pm
219 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:16:39pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

Yep, its typical BHO BS. "Hope! Change! We can't keep going the way we've been going! I blame Bush!"

He's trying to scare the shit out of old people.

220 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:16:43pm

re: #214 pre-Boomer Marine brat

eloquently put

I just traded a few thoughts with you and my mind was blank...

;-P

221 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:16:44pm

re: #213 jorline

Hey OLT, good to see ya.

I like the new avatar...give me the story on the pic.

It is my son Mitchell the boy human and Flapjack the toy poodle.

It was for Father's Day, and I may keep it a bit longer.

222 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:16:46pm

re: #217 jcm

Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines

Spoiler...

The Machine did it...

In the study, with the candlestick

223 brennk2  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:17:01pm

I was one who argued that the DHS report might be used to paint those on the Right with too broad a brush. I have to say I’m a little chagrined to see these stories keep popping up. That said though I will still point out we are a nation of 300 million people and that even 100’s of these stories (boy I hope not) wouldn’t serve to characterize the Right or the Left for that matter. I will also admit I am glad someone is looking under the rocks of both sides of the spectrum.

224 snowcrash  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:17:20pm

re: #207 tradewind OMG I'm watching Terminator 3 too. lol

225 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:17:27pm

Doctors want to do right by their patients, but Obama will have them governed by bureaucrats who only care about making sure the rules get followed.

226 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:17:47pm

re: #220 jcm

I just traded a few thoughts with you and my mind was blank...

;-P

*rubbing head*
OUCH!

/heh ... I know I asked for that

227 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:18:12pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

What's going on tonight Dark? Hope all is well.

228 voirdire  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:18:15pm

"Mirab, with sails unfurled"

229 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:18:16pm

re: #219 bellamags

He's trying to scare the shit out of old people.

Typical. Fear and Hope are the twin tools of politics.

230 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:18:37pm

re: #212 Jim in Virginia

Let's go Old School and pull up some Reagan tapes. That should spark something, right?

231 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:19:09pm

re: #217 jcm

I'm rewatching, still after weeks trying to decide if I'm willing to be let down by going to see IV.
I've been warned that it's a disappointment.

232 Afrocity  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:19:14pm

The African American guy who just asked Obama a question is obese. He had better run outta there before Obama taxes that bag of Doritos stuffed in his boxer shorts.

233 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:19:22pm

re: #227 jorline

What's going on tonight Dark? Hope all is well.

Hey dude..Hope you are well...Hot isn't it? I'm in Heaven!

234 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:19:31pm

re: #190 Desert Dog

Nope, they get a pass, sorry. It's OK to have crazy tree sitters, commie pinko lesbian military hating vegetarians, tyrant hugging America-hating anti-war psychos and many other types of nuts and flakes...that IS the Democrat party.

Now, the Republicans on the other hand, are nothing but racists, gun loving, bible thumping, Paulian infused, JBS-believing right wing extremists. In fact, the Republicans are so bad and evil and out of touch, they should just STFU and go away until they can say something nice about our beloved President.

/

I would say that your first paragraph is about 40 years out of date, and even then, the numbers of those particular crazies were often exaggerated. And to be sure, those individuals are sucking hind teat in today's new centrist, corporatist Democratic Party.

If a census were done today of the people who fit in your description of (extremist) Democrats and Republicans, I feel sure the crazy Right would far outnumber the crazy Left, if only because of the vast changes in society over the last 40 years.

Unless, as Mike McDaniel suggests in #9, the true scope of the leftist violence is being hidden from us by the propaganda media. But that would mean Fox News is part of the propaganda media too, and...my head hurts.

235 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:19:44pm

re: #227 jorline

What's going on tonight Dark? Hope all is well.

Sales are up, but I won't know if I'm OK till the end of the month. I'm not going to make all the numbers due to a slow start but I should still make it. If not, it'll be Chapter 7 for me most likely.

236 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:20:08pm

re: #188 ShanghaiEd

Here's what puzzles me. Of the 11 extremist cases outlined on this thread (3 in the main article, 8 in iceweasel's list) only one of them...the murder of Dr. Tiller...took place in the "heartland." The others are East Coast, New Jersey, and Seattle.

The stereotype of militias, that I've seen, is that their main territory is the sparse countryside of the West and Midwest. Why are nearly all these latest examples in Blue, or Blue-ish states? Anybody have a theory, or is it coincidence?

Well, the pacific northwest has been a hotbed of militia, white nationalist, and other extremist activity going back to the mid 90's:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Blue and blue-ish states have lots of hate groups, if you look at the SPLC's map. It seems to be more a function of population density than anything else: more people = more hate groups:

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

My best guess would be, apart from the factors just outlined, perhaps a rightwing extremist in a predominantly "blue" state might feel more under siege right now than someone in the heartland. A kind of sense of being outnumbered and 'his society' slipping away. So closer to the edge. Maybe?

237 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:20:44pm
238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:20:51pm

Tomorrow, all

JCM ... *high five*

for the people of Iran ... *prayers*

239 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:21:15pm

re: #219 bellamags

He's trying to scare the shit out of old people.

Columbia...
Home to Cloward and Piven.
Can you say Obama's Columbia transcripts?
Just who where his profs?

Crisis Strategy.

Everything is a crisis, must act now, no time for debate.

240 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:21:19pm

re: #221 OldLineTexan

It is my son Mitchell the boy human and Flapjack the toy poodle.

It was for Father's Day, and I may keep it a bit longer.

Great pic, cute as a button...looks just like Mrs. OLT.

I vote to keep the avatar.

241 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:21:23pm

re: #232 Afrocity

That's okay... Obama 's health sin has been exposed, and I bet he won't be pointing any nicotine-stained fingers at someone whose habits are less than pristine...

242 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:21:56pm

re: #231 tradewind

I'm rewatching, still after weeks trying to decide if I'm willing to be let down by going to see IV.
I've been warned that it's a disappointment.

It's okay... not great but a fun diversion.

243 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:21:56pm
244 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:22:08pm

re: #218 Iron Fist

American Liberalism is profoundly illiberal by European standards. Such comparisons should be made with care.

Completely agree, which is one reason why I always find it odd to see US politicans called "radically liberal", when by European standards they are not at all.

245 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:22:17pm

re: #234 ShanghaiEd

But that would mean Fox News is part of the propaganda media too,

That's been the meme of the Left since it was first aired.

Are you surprised to find it may be true?

And if three Internet Nazis talking about a Tea Party on the freakin' Internet is woe and doom, surely Code Pink and Boobs Not Bombs are the same.

246 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:22:35pm

re: #239 jcm

Columbia...
Home to Cloward and Piven.
Can you say Obama's Columbia transcripts?
Just who where his profs?

Crisis Strategy.

Everything is a crisis, must act now, no time for debate.

Cloward-Piven

247 bellamags  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:22:59pm

re: #239 jcm

Columbia...
Home to Cloward and Piven.
Can you say Obama's Columbia transcripts?
Just who where his profs?

Crisis Strategy.

Everything is a crisis, must act now, no time for debate.

DANGER DANGER

248 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:23:22pm

one last potty break for those with paws, and then bed. Fill me in on what new crisis unfolded tonight on ABC.

249 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:23:30pm

Loan forgiveness for student loans = Banks screwed over

250 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:23:35pm

re: #237 Iron Fist

Are Liberals not Left? And didn't the Liberals of the time, for example the NYT, support Stalin? Stalin was "Good Old Joe" to American Liberals a long time before he was acknowledged to be one of history's greatest monsters. Did, what was his name, Walter Duranty ever acknowledge that he covered up Stalin's genocide?

The same way CNN covered up Saddam Hussein's various atrocities.

I don't think so. He would have had to give back the Pulitzer he got for that steaming heap of lies.

251 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:23:51pm
252 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:23:55pm

re: #219 bellamags

Well of course... that's part of BHO-care's plan to replace the costly and inefficient enema.

253 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:24:06pm

re: #233 HoosierHoops

Hey dude..Hope you are well...Hot isn't it? I'm in Heaven!

Hi ya Hoopster. I'm well, thanks and you?

I live in south TX...no rain and hot as hell.

254 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:25:00pm

re: #203 albusteve

I read it...as much as I like JG I think he's reaching and trying to redefine classical fascism to something useable contemporarily...I did not get the stiffy I was promised...more like ho hum

Yes, I agree. Goldberg was trying very hard to make the fascism label apply to people like Hillary Clinton. I can see where there might be some delight in doing that when you're pissed off at the way Bush was called a fascist, but ultimately he wound up defining fascism in such a way that it became meaningless, and historians have really given him a beating over it.

255 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:25:03pm

And while we have the luxury of chasing after the details of Gov. Sanford's love affair, and counting Tea Party members among petty criminals:

BAGHDAD – A bomb ripped through a crowded market in Baghdad's main Shiite district on Wednesday, killing at least 69 people and wounding more than 100 less than a week before a deadline for U.S. combat troops to leave Iraq's urban areas.

256 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:25:45pm

Now Obama is taking a softball from the medical student who wants to go into primary care but worries about her debt. Blatant plant.

Question about doctor availability with 46 million added to the rolls. Not a hardball, but not a softball either. Waiting for BHO answer.

257 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:26:08pm

re: #253 jorline

Hi ya Hoopster. I'm well, thanks and you?

I live in south TX...no rain and hot as hell.

Hotter than hell here..The swimming pool is like a warm bath...
I have Al Gore on Speed dial but it keeps going to voicemail...
LOL

258 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:26:09pm

re: #234 ShanghaiEd

I would say that your first paragraph is about 40 years out of date, and even then, the numbers of those particular crazies were often exaggerated. And to be sure, those individuals are sucking hind teat in today's new centrist, corporatist Democratic Party.

If a census were done today of the people who fit in your description of (extremist) Democrats and Republicans, I feel sure the crazy Right would far outnumber the crazy Left, if only because of the vast changes in society over the last 40 years.

Unless, as Mike McDaniel suggests in #9, the true scope of the leftist violence is being hidden from us by the propaganda media. But that would mean Fox News is part of the propaganda media too, and...my head hurts.

40 years? Those are references to people in the headlines as late as late year. My point is the left has their fair share of loonies, just like the right. To add them up is an exercise in futility and to try and taint the other side by dragging out the extremists in our midst and call them mainstream is also a mistake. Although, I feel the loonies on the left are much closer to the mainstream of the Democratic Party. The rightwing nutjobs are getting all the news coverage right now. I will concede that most of these right wing extremists appear to be violent and that bothers me a lot. I am not too afraid of the tree hugging anti-war types on the left...the armed-to-the-teeth conspiracy kooks on the right...yes

259 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:26:19pm
260 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:26:35pm

re: #235 Dark_Falcon

Sales are up, but I won't know if I'm OK till the end of the month. I'm not going to make all the numbers due to a slow start but I should still make it. If not, it'll be Chapter 7 for me most likely.

Prayers to you my friend.

Hey, CITI Bank is raising base salaries by 50%. Don't they owe us 145 million?

261 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:26:50pm

re: #234 ShanghaiEd

I would say that your first paragraph is about 40 years out of date, and even then, the numbers of those particular crazies were often exaggerated.

Then I must have repeatedly stepped into some sort of time warp, when I saw just those types gather here in DC in "we hate everything" protests number in the tens of thousands, all through the Bush Administration.

262 eon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:27:21pm

re: #152 Flyers1974

Assuming that wiki article is 100% true, how does that show liberals gave us Stalin? Didn't Russia and the backlash there against the conservative czars, among other things give us Stalin?

The original "October Revolution" of 1917 was pulled off by a group of moderates, known as the Mensheviks, led by a nobleman, Prince Piotr Kropotkin. The Mensheviks were, in their turn, deposed a few months later by the Bolsheviks, under Vladmir Ilich Ulyanov (aka Lenin), and Josif Vissarionich Dzhugashvili (aka Stalin, which means "man of steel" in Russian). The result was a civil war that lasted into the 1920s, and only ended when following Lenin's death in 1922, Stalin managed to pull together a coalition of the various Bolshevik factions (which had been fighting each other as much as their enemies, the "White Russians", their term for the various moderate groups) and finally crush the "Whites" through the means that would become Stalin's trademark- brutal purges, and sheer stupidity. The famines were the result of forced collectivization of farming and the application of the bizarre theories of one Trofim Denisovich Lysenko-and when the crops failed, instead of changing tack, Stalin realized he had stumbled on a perfect way to "eliminate undesirables" in vast numbers without expending ammunition. (See The Harvest of Sorrow; Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine by Robert Conquest.

Where liberals in the West came in was that, at every point, they assisted Stalin in any way they could. Hopkins pushed for U.S. aid to Russia even before the war; Long sponsored bills to the same end as a U.S. Senator; the AFL-CIO collected funds for Russian "relief", that mainly went to the U.S. Communist Party and from them to the then-OGPU/NKVD (later called KGB) to finance espionage here in this country; and journalists like Duranty, Steffens, et al were vigorous propagandists for Stalin, even covering up evidence of his purges, and doing all they could to discredit his critics outside of Russia. All in the name of "building a better world for our children"- as I said, one in which people like themselves would have absolute power and thus the absolute ability to "do good"- with themselves as the only judge of what constituted the "good".

Considering how many of them were in positions to be well informed, it is logically impossible for them not to have known what Stalin was really doing. Yet they did nothing to expose him, and did all they could to assist him- all in quest of the "Radiant Future" which Joshua Muravchik refers to in the title of his book on the failure of socialism in the 20th century. Toward the end of his life, Duranty himself admitted that he was perfectly well aware of Stalin's "excesses", but "excused" himself by saying that "one death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic", plus Napoleon's aphorism "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs".

And western liberals, like Duranty, Hopkins, etc., were all too willing to hand Stalin the eggs on a platter. While dreaming of the day when they might do likewise- right here in America.

cheers

eon

263 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:27:24pm

Obama is now dodging the question. He's just making campaign pitch. He couldn't deal in specifics if he wanted to (which he doesn't).

264 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:27:47pm

I don't mean to butt-in but where did all the left-wing militants go(other than to Congress and ...uh...let's just say in the guberment ;) )?

Like the SLF, the Weathermen...whomever.

They turned 40 and did a 180?

265 anchors_aweigh  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:27:57pm
“Every generation needs a new revolution.”- Thomas Jefferson
266 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:28:35pm

re: #264 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

I don't mean to butt-in but where did all the left-wing militants go(other than to Congress and ...uh...let's just say in the guberment ;) )?

Like the SLF, the Weathermen...whomever.

They turned 40 and did a 180?

You mean Bill Ayers?

267 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:28:43pm

re: #237 Iron Fist

Are Liberals not Left? And didn't the Liberals of the time, for example the NYT, support Stalin? Stalin was "Good Old Joe" to American Liberals a long time before he was acknowledged to be one of history's greatest monsters. Did, what was his name, Walter Duranty ever acknowledge that he covered up Stalin's genocide?

The same way CNN covered up Saddam Hussein's various atrocities.

Liberals are unquestionably left. There were unquestionably liberals who excused Stalin's excesses. The NYT excused Stalin. Some of this was WWII propaganda, part of the lie that the US and the USSR were true allies (and a lie that was approved by W. Churchill). Some of the excuses were not propaganda, and was stupidity on the part of some liberals. That is far different though, than liberals giving us Stalin.

268 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:29:01pm

re: #259 Iron Fist

Quagmire! Oh, wait, Obama's President now. Never mind then.

Heh. Updinged.

269 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:29:04pm

re: #257 HoosierHoops

Hotter than hell here..The swimming pool is like a warm bath...
I have Al Gore on Speed dial but it keeps going to voicemail...
LOL

I hope Algores tobacco crops go up in smoke this year.

270 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:29:15pm

re: #264 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

I don't mean to butt-in but where did all the left-wing militants go(other than to Congress and ...uh...let's just say in the guberment ;) )?

Like the SLF, the Weathermen...whomever.

They turned 40 and did a 180?

They became the establishment...

271 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:29:34pm

re: #265 anchors_aweigh

The stability of freedom brings an over abundance of fruit...
-The Hoopster

272 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:29:38pm

re: #241 tradewind

That's okay... Obama 's health sin has been exposed, and I bet he won't be pointing any nicotine-stained fingers at someone whose habits are less than pristine...


Rules are for Thee, not for me.

273 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:29:39pm

re: #146 iceweasel

That is not the point of Golberg's book. The title "Liberal Fascists" came from a statement made by H. G. Wells, in which he called for a type of "liberal fascism" which would enforce good behavior and moral government on the bad people who don't know what is good for them. That tendency is very much present among the liberals of today who are eager to regulate people and impose their politically correct vision. Goldberg has a point, although he does stretch it too far.

Another point is that historically, the early 20th century Fascists in Italy France and Germany, drew their intellectual and ideological foundations from Left wing intellectuals of the day including Marxists and anarchists. The Fascists shared with the Marxists, the values of statism anti-capitalism, the anti-democracy, and anti-establishment. The also thrilled to the same calls for violence, terrorism and street thuggery. There were some ideological differences between Marxists and Fascists, but they had much more in common. Mussolini was of course, a Socialist before he broke wiht them and formed the Fascists.

The Right Wing of the early 20th century represented the aristocratic establishment. The Fascists of Spain, and to a lesser extent Italy, were more closely allied with the aristocracy than were the Nazis.

In the 1920's Germany, Rightists groups opposed the Wiemar Republic and wanted to re-instate the Kaiser of Imperial Germany. The Nazis were after something altogether different, although they did eventually co-opt the Rightists to their movement. The Nazis' goal was the destruction of the old order as much as it was against capitalism and democracy. Their aim was for a new society. In this way, they had another thing in common with the Communists in the USSR.

That said, there was nothing about the Fascists or the Nazis that was in any way "liberal". The Fascists were thoroughly opposed to the traditional liberal values of liberty, equality, democracy and the rule of law.

Today, Neo-Nazis and other similar extremist groups self-identify as right wing. This reflects a change in the understanding of the terminology over time, and even an ignorance of their own intellectual heritage.

274 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:29:59pm

re: #260 jorline

Prayers to you my friend.

Hey, CITI Bank is raising base salaries by 50%. Don't they owe us 145 million?

Maybe they're hiring. I probably won't need to change jobs anyway. My hot streak of sales has pulled me past several other people. If someone gets fired, I won't be first on the list and my store is understaffed right now. I expect to pull through. If nothing else, the increased sales I've shown will tell greatly in my favor.

275 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:30:16pm

re: #264 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

I don't mean to butt-in but where did all the left-wing militants go(other than to Congress and ...uh...let's just say in the guberment ;) )?

Like the SLF, the Weathermen...whomever.

They turned 40 and did a 180?

Academia. Explains quite a bit about the kids coming out of college with degrees in something studies.

276 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:30:53pm
277 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:31:00pm

re: #241 tradewind

That's okay... Obama 's health sin has been exposed, and I bet he won't be pointing any nicotine-stained fingers at someone whose habits are less than pristine...

HA! Remember, this is the same asshole who had the White House's thermostat cranked up when he moved in.

278 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:31:12pm

re: #262 eon

we can always count on you! I'm ever impressed.

Nightsie noodles, group.

279 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:31:41pm

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

Loan forgiveness for student loans = Banks screwed over

Just how are student loans associated with health care?

280 Hawaii69  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:32:15pm

re: #5 tubbyhubby

Maybe the guy IS a nut. Maybe he IS a public menace. Maybe he IS a right wing conspirator. But, please read this carefully.


Is that a problem?

It is for him. But a minor one. The fact that he was converting them to full auto and selling them illegaly is where his real trouble comes in.

281 eon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:32:17pm

re: #264 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

I don't mean to butt-in but where did all the left-wing militants go(other than to Congress and ...uh...let's just say in the guberment ;) )?

Like the SLF, the Weathermen...whomever.

They turned 40 and did a 180?

No, they went back to school, got their degrees, and are now teaching in colleges all over this country. Like Billy "Guilty As Sin, Free As A Bird" Ayres.

The book Tenured Radicals by David Horowitz is a good overview of what they've been up to since the Greenwich Village townhouse "own goal" in 1974.

cheers

eon

282 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:32:41pm

re: #279 MandyManners

Just how are student loans associated with health care?

Obama is talking about loan forgiveness for medical students who want to go into primary care.

283 anchors_aweigh  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:32:50pm

re: #271 HoosierHoops

The stability of freedom brings an over abundance of fruit...
-The Hoopster

Nice.

284 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:32:56pm
The bomb, which was hidden under vegetables on a motorized pushcart, exploded about 7 p.m., apparently timed to maximize casualties by striking shoppers buying food for their evening meal at the Mradi market.

Monsters.

It really is terrifying how much damage can be done with regular ol' chemical explosives.

285 ArmyWife  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:33:07pm

re: #279 MandyManners

paying the back makes you sick?

286 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:33:20pm

re: #280 Hawaii69

It is for him. But a minor one. The fact that he was converting them to full auto and selling them illegaly is where his real trouble comes in.

agreed.

287 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:33:43pm

re: #267 Flyers1974

Liberals are unquestionably left. There were unquestionably liberals who excused Stalin's excesses. The NYT excused Stalin. Some of this was WWII propaganda, part of the lie that the US and the USSR were true allies (and a lie that was approved by W. Churchill). Some of the excuses were not propaganda, and was stupidity on the part of some liberals. That is far different though, than liberals giving us Stalin.

And I by no means mock Churchill nor those excusing Stalin for WWII propaganda purposes. There was an immediate life and death situation (obviously Hitler) and FDR and Churchill, etc... deemed it necessary at the time to keep public support for giving aid to Stalin.

288 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:34:20pm

re: #264 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

I don't mean to butt-in but where did all the left-wing militants go(other than to Congress and ...uh...let's just say in the guberment ;) )?

Like the SLF, the Weathermen...whomever.

They turned 40 and did a 180?

They became that which they had previously despised. So much self-hatred. That's why they're endlessly apologizing. Several boomer commencement speakers were apologizing in their speeches to this generation of grads. I don't know if I can find it now, but it was written about in the MSM. I'll try to find it.

289 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:34:28pm

re: #236 iceweasel

Thanks. Those factors make sense to me. Especially the idea that any ideology's "rubber meets the road" in more populated areas, particularly those who feel under siege.

290 jaunte  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:34:31pm

re: #279 MandyManners

Medical students are forgiven their loans (just long enough for banks to figure out they don't want to make those loans anymore), then the government has to start running both the banks and the medical schools.

291 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:34:39pm

re: #250 Van Helsing

I don't think so. He would have had to give back the Pulitzer he got for that steaming heap of lies.

Duranty was also something of a racist, according to his none too flattering bio at wikipedia:

In the reporting that won him the Pulitzer Prize, Duranty held that the Russian people were "Asiatic" in thought. That meant to him that they valued communal effort and required autocratic government. In his view, individuality and private enterprise were alien concepts to the Russian people which only led to social disruption, and were unacceptable to them just as tyranny and Communism were unacceptable to Westerners.


(Russians are white of course, but this kind of thinking reflects racist ideology and thought processes.)

292 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:34:39pm

re: #262 eon

The original "October Revolution" of 1917 was pulled off by a group of moderates, known as the Mensheviks, led by a nobleman, Prince Piotr Kropotkin.

I'm sure that it was no coincidence that the urbane and very nice Soviet spy in The President's Analyst was named "Kropotkin".

293 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:35:00pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

Obama is now dodging the question. He's just making campaign pitch. He couldn't deal in specifics if he wanted to (which he doesn't).

I refuse to watch this socialist propaganda.

Dumbing down of America.

294 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:35:59pm

People should understand that the meaning of terms like "conservative", "liberal", "right wing", "left wing"' "capitalism" & "socialism" have changed over time and vary from country to country.

There were "liberals" in Russia in 1917. They were anti-Czar, and pro-capitalism. The Communists liquidated them.

295 Afrocity  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:36:04pm

9:35 and only 5 questions...

296 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:36:13pm

Some twitter updates, Iran situation:

Govt: Iranian regime losing legitimacy
Denmark’s Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller says the latest events in Iran are ‘a brutal escalation by the regime’ and calls on the EU to act.

June 24, 2009 - 8:33 AM
Swiss express concern over situation in Iran
Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey has called on Iran to show restraint in the use of force against peaceful demonstrators.
She reiterated that freedom of expression must be maintained and urged Tehran to investigate complaints about alleged irregularities in the June 12 presidential elections.

297 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:36:21pm

re: #234 ShanghaiEd

I would say that your first paragraph is about 40 years out of date, and even then, the numbers of those particular crazies were often exaggerated. And to be sure, those individuals are sucking hind teat in today's new centrist, corporatist Democratic Party.

... the vast changes in society over the last 40 years.

This goes back to our earlier discussion about so many of the messages of the rightwing message machine seeming peculiarly out of date. We were talking about the recycling of smears from 5 or 10 years ago, but one thing that has always struck me as odd is the way the rhetoric employed in the 60's and 70's against Vietnam protesters was once again reanimated like a zombie to attack the Iraq war objectors. If we'd had the internet and blogs back then, I wonder if one would always be able to tell what year someone was commenting from.

The progressive/lefty blogosphere noticed this, and it's common for people to snarkily refer to themselves as a DFH = "dirty fucking hippie" -- as a shorthand for the set of assumptions others have about those who had issues with the war.

298 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:36:28pm
299 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:36:30pm

re: #267 Flyers1974

Liberals are unquestionably left. There were unquestionably liberals who excused Stalin's excesses. The NYT excused Stalin. Some of this was WWII propaganda, part of the lie that the US and the USSR were true allies (and a lie that was approved by W. Churchill). Some of the excuses were not propaganda, and was stupidity on the part of some liberals. That is far different though, than liberals giving us Stalin.

After Hitler attacked Russia we really WERE allied with the Commies against the Axis for the balance of WWII.
Albeit a marriage of convenience, it was nevertheless a true alliance.
Too bad we didn't keep rolling to Moscow after the Germans were defeated.

300 Afrocity  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:36:37pm

I hate it when he starts a sentence with "Look"

301 Hawaii69  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:36:39pm

re: #14 ArmyWife

For being a felon in possession of a handgun, he could get 10 years. For owning a machine gun, another 10. For owning an unregistered silencer, 10 more. And the 300 marijuana plants police found when they searched his home could net him 40 years in a federal prison.

Wait a minute - I thought legalization of drugs was a LEFT wing topic! Must be an equal opportunity criminal.
...

Legalization is the last thing anyone with 300 Marijuana plants wants.

The value of his harvest would sink like a stone.

302 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:37:13pm

re: #291 Shiplord Kirel

(Russians are white of course, but this kind of thinking reflects racist ideology and thought processes.)

It's funny how our perceptions of "race" have changed, compared to those of 70 or 100 years ago. For instance, I think most Brits in 1930 would have recoiled at the thought of grouping themselves as the same "race" as, say, Turks. We use the word rather differently now.

303 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:37:36pm

From the WSJ:

In 1969, baby boomers took podiums at college graduations around the country and pledged to redefine the world in their image.

Forty years later, they have, and now they are apologizing for it. Their collective advice for the class of 2009: Don't be like us.

304 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:37:42pm

re: #282 Dark_Falcon

Obama is talking about loan forgiveness for medical students who want to go into primary care.

Ah.

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING NEUROSURGEONS!

305 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:38:24pm

re: #236 iceweasel

. . .

My best guess would be, apart from the factors just outlined, perhaps a rightwing extremist in a predominantly "blue" state might feel more under siege right now than someone in the heartland. A kind of sense of being outnumbered and 'his society' slipping away. So closer to the edge. Maybe?

It would seem to me that whatever group feels out of control at any given moment would be the group that would be more likely to engage in various activities.

306 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:38:31pm

bbiaw

307 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:38:34pm

re: #295 Afrocity

9:35 and only 5 questions...

He doesn't want to answer questions. He wants to talk and bask in adulation.

308 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:38:39pm

re: #300 Afrocity

I hate it when he starts a sentence with "Look"

That is very common among politicians and political commentators. I also get tired of it.

309 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:39:51pm

re: #304 MandyManners

Ah.

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING NEUROSURGEONS!

When the program ends, could you do your "I hope that everybody who refused..." rant for us?

310 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:39:56pm

re: #300 Afrocity

I hate it when he starts a sentence with "Look"

The Obama verbal tic I love to hate is "we must not, we shall not, and we will not..."

311 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:39:58pm

re: #304 MandyManners

Ah.

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING NEUROSURGEONS!

Who needs a brain when gubermint makes all our thinking for us.

duh

312 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:40:28pm
313 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:40:33pm

WE ARE ALL NEUROSURGEONS NOW!

Could you please hand me my chisel & chainsaw?

314 Shr_Nfr  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:41:20pm

Loons, paranoids, psychos have always been with us and always will be. The best we can do is to put them out of circulation as fast as possible. Sometimes they espouse left wing ideas, e.g. Bill Ayers, sometimes Nazi ideas, sometimes something else. What should not be permitted is for the left to hang these folks on the political right. They are not. They are just insane.

315 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:41:45pm
316 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:42:05pm
Are you now or have you ever been, a member of the Tea Party?
317 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:42:18pm

re: #267 Flyers1974

The Liberals of the day were not of the Left. The journalists, intellectuals and politicians who admired Stalin & the USSR were Socialists, such as George Bernard Shaw.

318 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:42:27pm

And just how will Obama pay for his socialized medicine plan?

/what, you didn't know that unicorns [expletive deleted] money?

319 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:42:50pm

ABC is on commercials right now. They refused to allow the GOP to buy airtime for Obama's infomercial, BTW.

bastards. The next segment deals govenment health care. This means that the planted quests have got Obama all fluffed up and now its time for his happy ending.

/puke

320 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:42:51pm

re: #282 Dark_Falcon

Obama is talking about loan forgiveness for medical students who want to go into primary care.

"Lo que no nos cuesta, lo hacemos fiesta." (That which costs us nothing, we throw it away at a party.)

-Conservative Peruvian economist Carlos Bolona*

*Imagine a tilde over the n, I'm too lazy to look for it

321 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:42:53pm

re: #312 Iron Fist

That is true. The last thing any drug dealer wants is legalization. I on thew other hand, radical right-winger that I am, am all for it. There would be problems, but there are problems now. You manage the problems rather than criminalizing what is, in reality, a large sector of the economy.

My libertarian streak agrees with you...
But I look at all the foster kids I've seen, every single one, the parents have drug issues. Drug use is not a victimless past time.

Therein lies the rub...

322 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:42:57pm

re: #302 Occasional Reader

It's funny how our perceptions of "race" have changed, compared to those of 70 or 100 years ago. For instance, I think most Brits in 1930 would have recoiled at the thought of grouping themselves as the same "race" as, say, Turks. We use the word rather differently now.

Racialism was really kind of an intellectual fad for nearly a century before World War 2, with various savants trying to out-do each other in making finer and finer distinctions. The British, for example, had a very elaborate set of beliefs about which of their subject peoples were better suited to what task. British army officers theorized that Ghurkas and Scots worked well together because both are highlanders. This notion was still current in the British service just a generation ago.

323 Shr_Nfr  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:43:19pm

re: #312 Iron Fist

Personally, I am for distributing free bags of smack. Every nth bag has a triple dose to assure customer satisfaction.

324 eon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:43:27pm

re: #292 MandyManners

I'm sure that it was no coincidence that the urbane and very nice Soviet spy in The President's Analyst was named "Kropotkin".

That movie is one of the most brilliant, paranoid political satires ever made. William Daniels' "militant liberal" is a hoot; he's all for "gun control"- for everybody else. (Thanks to that movie, when he was the voice of KITT on the original Knight Rider, I could never watch the show with a straight face.) And whenever I saw Pat Harrington on One Day At A Time, I kept looking for the DIN plug in his shoe heel.

Trivia note; the fight sequence between James Coburn and the guard was apparently one cut from the movie In Like Flint (1967), although some sources state that it was actually footage from a third, never-completed, Derek Flint film.

/Any way you look at it, a work of twisted genius.

cheers

eon

325 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:43:31pm

re: #318 Killian Bundy

And just how will Obama pay for his socialized medicine plan?

/what, you didn't know that unicorns [expletive deleted] money?

no, but I heard they fart rainbows. :D

326 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:43:31pm

re: #304 MandyManners

Ah.

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING NEUROSURGEONS!



BIG BRAINS ARE RIPPING US OFF!

327 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:43:41pm

re: #313 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

So last century... your scrub nurse will point you in the direction of your gamma knife and assorted fiber-optic scope stuff.

328 Hawaii69  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:44:32pm

re: #73 DEZes

Simply owning a gun is proof of that, ask a libtard.


Using "tard" as a suffix must be proof of something as well...

329 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:44:39pm

re: #225 Dark_Falcon

Doctors want to do right by their patients, but Obama will have them governed by bureaucrats who only care about making sure the rules get followed.

And how is this worse than my doctor being currently governed by HMO staffers who (a) only care about making sure the rules get followed, and (b) also have to turn a hefty profit for their shareholders in the process?

330 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:45:08pm

re: #307 Dark_Falcon

But he will entertain a set-up from a HuffPo sycophant in front of every actual news organization...

331 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:45:26pm

re: #322 Shiplord Kirel

British army officers theorized that Ghurkas and Scots worked well together because both are highlanders.

Of course, that particular example would not necessarily exhibit racism/racialism; rather, a broad brush belief about culture.

332 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:45:29pm

re: #273 Kenneth


That said, there was nothing about the Fascists or the Nazis that was in any way "liberal". The Fascists were thoroughly opposed to the traditional liberal values of liberty, equality, democracy and the rule of law. .

Unfortunately, JG was concerned with arguing that today's liberals are fascists. That is not so, and expresses his own historical ignorance of the term and how historians employ it.

I have to just link to Dave Neiwert here, who has done some of the most thorough debunking of JG:

First, the National Socialists, aka Nazis, were "Socialists" in roughly the same way that the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" was run by Republicans. It was a marketing term that reflected more the fascists' real roots in the radical ferment around socialism, but there is little question that fascism generically and Nazism specifically were right-wing phenomena.

The citations available on this subject are numerous, but probably the clearest explanation comes from Robert O. Paxton in The Anatomy of Fascism, who explains that fascism for all its rhetoric was in practice closely aligned with and allied with capitalists and conservatives -- some of whom, years down the road, came to regret the association, but the vast majority of whom approved enthusiastically up through the war years. (Think Krupp.) They were also decidedly -- violently, murderously -- anti-socialist.

Another supposed essential character of fascism is its anticapitalist, antibourgeois animus. Early fascist movements flaunted their contempt for bourgeois values and for those who wanted only "to earn money, money, filthy money." They attacked "international finance capitalism" almost as loudly as they attacked socialists. They even promised to expropriate department-store owners in favor of patriotic artisans, and large landowners in favor of peasants.

Whenever fascist parties acquired power, however, they did nothing to carry out these anticapitalist threats. By contrast, they enforced with the utmost violence and thoroughness their threats against socialism. Street fights over turf with young communists were among their most powerful propaganda images. Once in power, fascist regimes banned strikes, dissolved independent labor unions, lowered wage earners' purchasing power, and showered money on armaments industries, to the immense satisfaction of employers.

(part one, to be continued)

333 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:45:52pm

part two:

The meaning of "National Socialism" was essentially part of the Nazis' vision of Germany under siege from outside forces -- namely, the Jews. They intended to apply the principles of state ownership only to those businesses and industries -- i.e., international banking -- that were not specifically German; meanwhile, German-owned capitalist enterprises were given special preferences. As Paxton explains:

It turned out in practice that fascists' anticapitalism was highly selective. Even at their most radical, the socialism that the fascists wanted was a "national socialism": one that denied only foreign or enemy property rights (including that of internal enemies). They cherished national producers. Above all, it was by offering an effective remedy against socialist revolution that fascism turned out in practice to find a space. If Mussolini retained some lingering hopes in 1919 of founding an alternative socialism rather than an antisocialism, he was soon disabused of those notions by observing what worked and what didn't work in Italian politics. His dismal electoral results with a Left-nationalist program in Milan in November 1919 surely hammered that lesson home.

The pragmatic choices of Mussolini and Hitler were driven by their urge for success and power. Not all fascist leaders had such ambitions. Some of them preferred to keep their movements "pure," even at the cost of remaining marginal.

334 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:45:58pm
335 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:46:00pm

re: #329 ShanghaiEd

And how is this worse than my doctor being currently governed by HMO staffers who (a) only care about making sure the rules get followed, and (b) also have to turn a hefty profit for their shareholders in the process?

I don't like HMO's for the reasons you indicated.
But at present, not all doctors work for an HMO. Mine don't.

336 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:46:19pm

re: #329 ShanghaiEd

And how is this worse than my doctor being currently governed by HMO staffers who (a) only care about making sure the rules get followed, and (b) also have to turn a hefty profit for their shareholders in the process?

If an HMO fails badly, it will be sued and lose business. If things are government-run, there is no escape and the government has few incentives to do things right.

337 legalpad  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:46:33pm

I find the stricture of the left-wing - right-wing categories annoying, and I do not think they represent the real structure of politics. We have all seen this, The American Form of Government. I tie this with a discussion with iceweasel a short time ago in which they said:

Conservatives and liberals have a LOT in common-- respect for individual rights, respect for privacy, a deep dislike of government telling them what to do. This is the kind of 'liberalism' that is just 'American' and is really common to almost all those who are in a liberal democracy.
I think many of our debates have been framed in a 'culture war' way that polarizes people and parties, exacerbates our differences and drives us apart.

I think the "left-wing, right-wing" thing is a distraction from the real conflict: personal liberty vs encroaching government. There are certain things that our pooled efforts are necessary to solve, but these things do not need to disrupt personal liberty in a non-optimal manner.

338 Silvergirl  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:47:10pm

This thing is so orchestrated he needs a baton.

339 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:47:14pm

re: #299 Spare O'Lake

After Hitler attacked Russia we really WERE allied with the Commies against the Axis for the balance of WWII.
Albeit a marriage of convenience, it was nevertheless a true alliance.
Too bad we didn't keep rolling to Moscow after the Germans were defeated.

Absolutely. What I meant was, propaganda here in the US gave the impression we were more than temporary allies, that we had something in common. It is too bad we didn't keep rolling. The question is, could we have kept rolling? No way we win a ground battle in Europe. I believe we had one nuke that would be available in September 1945? Any knowledge when others would have been ready?

340 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:47:15pm

re: #334 Iron Fist

No, I agree. I dated a girl (lived with her for about nine years) whose older sister was a crack whore. The worst was when she was living in public housing with her pimp, two other whores and her two kids. Drugs aren't a victimless crime, but what we are doing, what we have been doing, has utterly and totally failed. It is time we try something different.

Quite concur.

341 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:47:19pm

re: #335 reine.de.tout

I don't like HMO's for the reasons you indicated.

Your HMOphobia will not be tolerated at this blog, young lady.

342 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:47:54pm

re: #338 Silvergirl

This thing is so orchestrated he needs a baton.

The baton gets shoved up our asses when the plan is passed. BOHICA!

343 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:48:18pm

re: #341 Occasional Reader

Your HMOphobia will not be tolerated at this blog, young lady.

oooh.
*hangs head in shame*
sorry.

344 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:49:02pm

re: #337 legalpad

I find the stricture of the left-wing - right-wing categories annoying, and I do not think they represent the real structure of politics. We have all seen this, The American Form of Government. I tie this with a discussion with iceweasel a short time ago in which they said:

I think the "left-wing, right-wing" thing is a distraction from the real conflict: personal liberty vs encroaching government. There are certain things that our pooled efforts are necessary to solve, but these things do not need to disrupt personal liberty in a non-optimal manner.

Totally agree with you, as you know. I think Americans as a group have certain deep commitments, esp around personal liberty, that transcend the current partisan lines.

345 DisturbedEma  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:50:24pm

re: #343 reine.de.tout

re: #341 Occasional Reader


oooh.
*hangs head in shame*
sorry.


That'll be 200 buck for the Co pay, and another 1200 for going outside your network. . .

346 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:50:26pm

re: #272 Jim in Virginia

Hey, he's making progress. He's just blowing smoke, not a little blow.

347 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:51:00pm

teleprompter says what

348 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:51:05pm

re: #339 Flyers1974

Absolutely. What I meant was, propaganda here in the US gave the impression we were more than temporary allies, that we had something in common. It is too bad we didn't keep rolling. The question is, could we have kept rolling? No way we win a ground battle in Europe. I believe we had one nuke that would be available in September 1945? Any knowledge when others would have been ready?

we could not have kept rolling. By the spring of 1945 we were running out of men at home we could draft and we still had not defeated Japan. We really did have to accept Stalin's conquest of Eastern Europe. However, we shouldn't have pretended it was something other than what it was.

349 DisturbedEma  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:52:10pm

re: #347 Shug

teleprompter says what

Totally. . .

350 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:52:23pm

re: #334 Iron Fist

No, I agree. I dated a girl (lived with her for about nine years) whose older sister was a crack whore. The worst was when she was living in public housing with her pimp, two other whores and her two kids. Drugs aren't a victimless crime, but what we are doing, what we have been doing, has utterly and totally failed. It is time we try something different.

No argument on that.

What's the best way to minimize the destructive behavior?

Damn if I know.

351 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:52:24pm

re: #322 Shiplord Kirel

Racialism was really kind of an intellectual fad for nearly a century before World War 2, with various savants trying to out-do each other in making finer and finer distinctions. The British, for example, had a very elaborate set of beliefs about which of their subject peoples were better suited to what task. British army officers theorized that Ghurkas and Scots worked well together because both are highlanders. This notion was still current in the British service just a generation ago.

Sure, and didn't the Belgians more or less create the Hutu/Tutsi split originally, by singling out the Tutsis and deciding they were the ones more fit to govern?

352 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:52:56pm

re: #336 Dark_Falcon

If an HMO fails badly, it will be sued and lose business. If things are government-run, there is no escape and the government has few incentives to do things right.

There are also other options available. If the government has a program subsidized by TAXPAYER money it will, briefly, appear to be a viable option. It will also end up draining business away from private (non-government) companies until they end up being the only game in town. For awhile.

In Canada (British Columbia, IIRC) there is a drive to expand private practices because of the sad state of the government system. Private clinics Some resistance to be expected.

353 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:52:59pm

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

BOHICA!


You hacked Barney Frank's password?

354 DisturbedEma  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:53:10pm

re: #350 jcm

re: #334 Iron Fist


No argument on that.

What's the best way to minimize the destructive behavior?

Damn if I know.

Stop treating it like a sickness and see it as a weakness that has to be stopped

355 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:53:38pm

So apparently all "conservatives" are bomb throwing abortion doctor killing, white nationalist, militia types. It also appears that all "liberals" are Stailin's buddies. Both are bullshit. Look, I'm as willing to engage in a heated talk about politics as anyone, but this type of super-over-simplification has got to stop. For instance, I reacted to a statement that said that "liberalism gave us Joe Stalin." Which liberalism? classical? social gospel progressivism? post-sixties moral libertinism with a strong statist impulse? Clintonian corporate neo-liberalism? I assume (of course I could be wrong) that the liberalism described was of the pre-war New deal sort. But, the historical record shows that this very type of liberalism was itself a movement against the Soviet attempt to infiltrate labor and local and then national politics. Were there liberals who thought Uncle Joe was more "liberal" than the reality showed? Obviously! There will always be a great surplus of very stupid people; and liberals and conservatives aren't excluded. I happen to lean towards a classical liberalism, (Madison is my favorite founder) which takes more seriously the impact of human frailty, whether morally or epistemologically. That's why I sometimes sound really conservative, but at other times sound quite liberal. As far the fringe that wants to attach itself to "conservatism"; conservatism, just like liberalism, has a definitional fight on its hands. Which "Conservatism" are we talking about? Soc. Con.? Lib. Con.? Econ. Con.? Sec. Con? Crunchy Con. Neo Con.? Each one will emphasize a particular aspect of traditional conservatism, but at the expense of other aspects that contradict a particular agenda being held to. Of course the same is true of the various strains of liberalism.

I wanted to respond to the individual posts regarding Stalin, but realized pretty quickly that it needed something bigger. Obviously, there's more to be said. But I hope this is a good start.

In any event, extremism that leads to violence is not liberal or conservative. It's nihilism. I hope we can all agree on that.

356 legalpad  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:53:56pm

re: #344 iceweasel

Totally agree with you, as you know. I think Americans as a group have certain deep commitments, esp around personal liberty, that transcend the current partisan lines.

This has got to be the solution. The only optional seems to be this endless sniping and power-grabbing by politicians exploiting perceived differences in constituents.

357 DisturbedEma  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:53:59pm

re: #352 Van Helsing

re: #336 Dark_Falcon


There are also other options available. If the government has a program subsidized by TAXPAYER money it will, briefly, appear to be a viable option. It will also end up draining business away from private (non-government) companies until they end up being the only game in town. For awhile.

In Canada (British Columbia, IIRC) there is a drive to expand private practices because of the sad state of the government system. Private clinics Some resistance to be expected.

Hit the NHS website and see the fun in action. . .

358 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:54:53pm

re: #353 tradewind

You hacked Barney Frank's password?

[Smiles.] Can't LOL right now or I'll double over coughing.

359 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:55:17pm

re: #354 DisturbedEma

Stop treating it like a sickness and see it as a weakness that has to be stopped

That, shame, quit subsidizing the behavior, are all parts.

360 legalpad  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:55:20pm

re: #355 Irenicum

In any event, extremism that leads to violence is not liberal or conservative. It's nihilism. I hope we can all agree on that.

Good one!

361 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:55:28pm

I'm gonna' get personal right now. My mother is back in the hospital, this time in the ICU with one lung's lower quadrant "compressed" which means-- as far as I can tell--it has swollen shut despite the harsh regimine of steroids she'd been taking since her recent hospitalization, and despite the high levels that have been pumped into her starting about 30 hours ago. Her O level is in the low 90s even though she's been on forced oxygen (up from the low 80s the last time I saw her at home). She's in extreme pain and can have nothing to eat or drink lest she aspirate.

Who's paying for this? My parents. They have private health insurance. They don't use any tax money whatsoever, not even Medicare to which they contributed money for the past 44 years.

I fear what would happen to her if she should live until FCCBHO's fucking commie scheme destroy her health insurance. If she were in Great Britain, she'd have been dead a long, long time ago.

DON'T LET THIS FUCKING COMMIE BASTARD DESTROY AMERICA!

362 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:55:54pm

re: #355 Irenicum

. . .
In any event, extremism that leads to violence is not liberal or conservative. It's nihilism. I hope we can all agree on that.

I can't find much to argue with there.

363 Afrocity  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:56:01pm

This is a failure. ABC wasted their money and time. Obama does not look particularly confident about anything he is saying.

364 garden18  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:56:03pm

I work in a rehab facility for drug users and I can assure you that if marijuana were legalized, many young people would stay stoned the rest of their lives. Another problem: marijuana is a gateway drug for heroin. Many people would die if shooting heroin was legalized. Using drugs because they are illegal may provide excitement for some, but most people use because it's fun and/or because it assuages deep, underlying anguish.

365 CynicalConservative  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:56:38pm

re: #363 Afrocity

This is a failure. ABC wasted their money and time. Obama does not look particularly confident about anything he is saying.

Glad to hear it.

366 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:56:47pm
367 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:57:21pm

re: #335 reine.de.tout

I don't like HMO's for the reasons you indicated.
But at present, not all doctors work for an HMO. Mine don't.

Sorry, reine...I should have said HMOs and/or insurance companies.

368 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:57:45pm

re: #355 Irenicum

We have a true radical here people...

Reason, logic, way to radical for me!

/ ;-)

369 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:58:03pm

re: #357 DisturbedEma

Hit the NHS website and see the fun in action. . .

Great to see real initiative being shown up there.


BHO says the "stars are aligned" for change. He also noted that the moon was in the Seventh House:

370 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:58:19pm

re: #324 eon

That movie is one of the most brilliant, paranoid political satires ever made. William Daniels' "militant liberal" is a hoot; he's all for "gun control"- for everybody else. (Thanks to that movie, when he was the voice of KITT on the original Knight Rider, I could never watch the show with a straight face.) And whenever I saw Pat Harrington on One Day At A Time, I kept looking for the DIN plug in his shoe heel.

Trivia note; the fight sequence between James Coburn and the guard was apparently one cut from the movie In Like Flint (1967), although some sources state that it was actually footage from a third, never-completed, Derek Flint film.

/Any way you look at it, a work of twisted genius.

cheers

eon

Although I'm not a fan of the Flint movies, I absolutely adore this movie!

371 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:58:35pm

I'm also very curious where these numbers regarding the un-insured come from. Anyone have any details? How many of them are un-insured by choice (i.e., young, healthy, no kids, etc.) because they have (or believe they have) a better than average chance of not needing services for anything?

How many have the option of state programs such as AHCCS (in AZ) or the state/federal S-CHIP program but choose not to deal with them?

372 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:59:33pm

re: #361 MandyManners

{mandy}
This is personal for me too, because I believe that under Obama's scheme, the (very expensive) medical treatment I need once a month to keep me healthy would be denied to me.

And that scares me to death.

373 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 7:59:37pm

re: #332 iceweasel
You use a trite semantic argument:

First, the National Socialists, aka Nazis, were "Socialists" in roughly the same way that the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" was run by Republicans.

The American Republican Party is no the first and only use of the term "republic". Likewise, word Socialist has various meanings.


Whenever fascist parties acquired power, however, they did nothing to carry out these anticapitalist threats. By contrast, they enforced with the utmost violence and thoroughness their threats against socialism. Street fights over turf with young communists were among their most powerful propaganda images. Once in power, fascist regimes banned strikes, dissolved independent labor unions, lowered wage earners' purchasing power, and showered money on armaments industries, to the immense satisfaction of employers.

That line of argument assumes the only way to be anti-capitalist is to be socialist (or Marxist). That is not true. Fascist governments used state power to set wage and price controls, establish monopolies and regulate banks and businesses. Those are all anti-capitalist policies, in the sense of the generally free market capitalism of democratic societies.

374 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:00:15pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

I don't know how, but my mild dyslexia somehow saw squeaking pig instead of speaking gig! No significance intended!

375 Truck Monkey  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:00:40pm

re: #369 Dark_Falcon

Great to see real initiative being shown up there.

BHO says the "stars are aligned" for change. He also noted that the moon was in the Seventh House:


Love the MST 3000 special effects in this vid!

376 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:00:46pm

re: #356 legalpad

This has got to be the solution. The only optional seems to be this endless sniping and power-grabbing by politicians exploiting perceived differences in constituents.

Yes. Not only that, but we the constituents start to buy into the stereotypes of 'the other side', making dialogue almost impossible.

377 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:00:52pm

re: #361 MandyManners

Sorry about your Mom Mandy.

378 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:01:14pm

re: #366 Iron Fist

We've tried that and it failed spectacularly. We called it Prohibition.

It failed especially badly here in Chicago.

379 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:01:29pm

re: #348 Dark_Falcon

we could not have kept rolling. By the spring of 1945 we were running out of men at home we could draft and we still had not defeated Japan. We really did have to accept Stalin's conquest of Eastern Europe. However, we shouldn't have pretended it was something other than what it was.

I disagree. The Western Allies had complete mastery of the skies and eventually could've built more nukes. So one way or another we could've bombed the shit out of the Russkies by cutting their supply lines and blowing up their equipment. With the requisite will we could have kicked their asses right out of Europe. But I guess we didn't really have the stomach for another war.

380 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:02:03pm

re: #297 iceweasel

This goes back to our earlier discussion about so many of the messages of the rightwing message machine seeming peculiarly out of date. We were talking about the recycling of smears from 5 or 10 years ago, but one thing that has always struck me as odd is the way the rhetoric employed in the 60's and 70's against Vietnam protesters was once again reanimated like a zombie to attack the Iraq war objectors. If we'd had the internet and blogs back then, I wonder if one would always be able to tell what year someone was commenting from.

The progressive/lefty blogosphere noticed this, and it's common for people to snarkily refer to themselves as a DFH = "dirty fucking hippie" -- as a shorthand for the set of assumptions others have about those who had issues with the war.

So, there are no more crazy tree sitters, commie pinko lesbian military hating vegetarians, tyrant hugging America-hating anti-war psychos and many other types of nuts and flakes left in the Democrat Party then? Where did they all go?

You guys on the left need to bask in your newly found political successes, as you have been wandering in the wilderness for many years without much to squawk about. But, you need to take off the rose colored glasses every once in a while. Your standard bearer is running this country off a cliff and you will not have the luxury of blaming everything on Bush as you will be the sole proprietors of the coming failures of over-extention, over-spending and misguided policies. And, the rightwingers like me will be there to pick up the pieces.

381 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:03:03pm

re: #379 Spare O'Lake

I disagree. The Western Allies had complete mastery of the skies and eventually could've built more nukes. So one way or another we could've bombed the shit out of the Russkies by cutting their supply lines and blowing up their equipment. With the requisite will we could have kicked their asses right out of Europe. But I guess we didn't really have the stomach for another war.

Both the US and UK were weary and didn't think it worth the candle.

382 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:03:39pm

re: #373 Kenneth


That line of argument assumes the only way to be anti-capitalist is to be socialist (or Marxist). That is not true. Fascist governments used state power to set wage and price controls, establish monopolies and regulate banks and businesses. Those are all anti-capitalist policies, in the sense of the generally free market capitalism of democratic societies.

Take it up with Robert Paxton, the author of the Anatomy of Fascism, since those are his words. And his point is that once in power, fascists were anti-socialist and quite happy to set policies which made employers very happy.

As for the earlier 'semantic point', I take that to be no different than your own point earlier, that these words have meanings and the meanings do change. It's not an objection to *you*, but to Goldberg.

383 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:03:53pm

re: #379 Spare O'Lake

The Western Allies had complete mastery of the skies

I don't recall the exact figures, but the Red Air Force was enormous, too, by late spring of 1945.

384 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:04:10pm

re: #371 Van Helsing

I'm also very curious where these numbers regarding the un-insured come from. Anyone have any details? How many of them are un-insured by choice (i.e., young, healthy, no kids, etc.) because they have (or believe they have) a better than average chance of not needing services for anything?

How many have the option of state programs such as AHCCS (in AZ) or the state/federal S-CHIP program but choose not to deal with them?

The number includes: illegal aliens, those who choose not have insurance but have it available usually the young, those who where uninsured for any period of time during the year, those who have public assistance already available but haven't applied.

385 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:04:21pm

re: #324 eon

That movie is one of the most brilliant, paranoid political satires ever made. William Daniels' "militant liberal" is a hoot; he's all for "gun control"- for everybody else. (Thanks to that movie, when he was the voice of KITT on the original Knight Rider, I could never watch the show with a straight face.) And whenever I saw Pat Harrington on One Day At A Time, I kept looking for the DIN plug in his shoe heel.

Trivia note; the fight sequence between James Coburn and the guard was apparently one cut from the movie In Like Flint (1967), although some sources state that it was actually footage from a third, never-completed, Derek Flint film.

/Any way you look at it, a work of twisted genius.

cheers

eon

I once had a link to a seven-minute clip in which Dr. Schaefer escaped the White House by hooking up with that family.

Gut-busting humor.

386 VioletTiger  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:04:33pm

re: #361 MandyManners

{Mandy}
Sending prayers for you and your family. I know how hard this can be.

387 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:04:45pm

re: #364 garden18

I work in a rehab facility for drug users and I can assure you that if marijuana were legalized, many young people would stay stoned the rest of their lives. Another problem: marijuana is a gateway drug for heroin. Many people would die if shooting heroin was legalized. Using drugs because they are illegal may provide excitement for some, but most people use because it's fun and/or because it assuages deep, underlying anguish.

Marijuana can also trigger severe psychotic symptoms in people with a predisposition to metal illness. It is far from a harmless recreational drug.

388 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:05:10pm
389 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:05:46pm

The kids are running the candy store.

390 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:06:13pm

re: #243 Iron Fist

Wow. You really believe Obama is "Centerist"?

No, but the Democratic Party is. I believe Obama is a Democrat out of convenience.

391 legalpad  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:06:44pm

re: #376 iceweasel

Yes. Not only that, but we the constituents start to buy into the stereotypes of 'the other side', making dialogue almost impossible.

Yes. Part the the fallacy of the left-right thing was reflected in someones abortion related comment to the effect that "there is no middle-of-the-road", indicating that all "compromise" is viewed as a sell-out of principles.

392 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:06:49pm

re: #384 jcm

The number includes: illegal aliens, those who choose not have insurance but have it available usually the young, those who where uninsured for any period of time during the year, those who have public assistance already available but haven't applied.

In my HR days, MOST of the young single new hires refused to take the medical insurance.

They go along, they get married, have a kid - then they get the insurance.
But many 22-year-olds just aren't thinking about it.

393 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:07:04pm

re: #383 Occasional Reader

I don't recall the exact figures, but the Red Air Force was enormous, too, by late spring of 1945.

Their planes and pilots were not as good as ours (though the YAK-3 was quite good). The key however, was that even Stalin wanted the war over. Fighting in Europe ended because all those who could keep fighting did not want to.

395 FrogMarch  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:07:33pm

Anyone watching the Obama/ABC pro-government run health care special?
Unbelievable what this nation has turned into.

396 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:07:45pm

re: #383 Occasional Reader

I don't recall the exact figures, but the Red Air Force was enormous, too, by late spring of 1945.

There was the little matter of the 8-10 MILLION Red Army soldiers standing around Eastern Europe as well. Even if our Air Force was superior (If it was, it was not by much), there is no way we could have told the USSR anything. We had nothing to back it up.

397 eon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:08:37pm

re: #303 Silvergirl

From the WSJ:

I'm still waiting for the meaningful apologies;

"Sorry we tried to blow up everything."

"Sorry we tried to burn down everything we failed to blow up."

"Sorry we spat on the guys who came back from Vietnam when we burnt our draft cards to avoid going."

"Sorry we treated anyone who wasn't wearing a Che' T-shirt like dirt."

"Sorry we tried to throw the Bill of Rights under the bus, except for the bits we wanted to use to protect ourselves when we repeatedly broke the fucking law!"

"And we're really, really sorry we screwed every single pooch in the world from NASA to Nuclear Power in our quest for Eco-Socialism, Vegetarianism, Free Love, and Taxpayer-Funded Free Dope For Life For All Truly Good, Sensitive And Caring People- well, really just for us at your expense, but you know what I mean, right, mannn?"

/In case no one has figured it out by now, I'm a nerd, a Trekkie, and a post-boomer baby... And. I. Am. Still. Pissed. At. These. Self. Righteous. Assholes.

/rant mode off, again.

cheers

eon

398 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:08:38pm

Good night.

399 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:08:45pm

re: #380 Desert Dog

So, there are no more crazy tree sitters, commie pinko lesbian military hating vegetarians, tyrant hugging America-hating anti-war psychos and many other types of nuts and flakes left in the Democrat Party then?

I'm sure they're still around; they're just not that active right now because we have a Democratic administration, and one they currently perceive as sympathetic to their aims.

Then again, I don't know anyone who is a "tyrant hugging America-hating anti-war psycho" or a "commie pinko lesbian military hating vegetarian".

It's possible to hate war but love your soldiers, and to love your country even while criticising it.

No doubt there are some nuts out there who do fit your description. When they start killing people I'll be first in line demanding that we crack down on leftwing extremism and asking why the media isn't covering it.

400 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:08:55pm

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

I'm sorry... I cleaned it up, actually..:)
(Ginger... chew a piece of the real stuff, or have some ginger tea. Always works for me).

401 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:09:06pm

re: #395 FrogMarch

Anyone watching the Obama/ABC pro-government run health care special?
Unbelievable what this nation has turned into.

Indeed. The fear of what Obama may be able to do scares the shit out of me.

402 VioletTiger  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:09:58pm

re: #384 jcm

The number includes: illegal aliens, those who choose not have insurance but have it available usually the young, those who where uninsured for any period of time during the year, those who have public assistance already available but haven't applied.

I am still wondering if the 'uninsured' include people like my husband, who have turned down company health insurance because he already has it on my policy.

403 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:10:10pm

re: #392 reine.de.tout

In my HR days, MOST of the young single new hires refused to take the medical insurance.

They go along, they get married, have a kid - then they get the insurance.
But many 22-year-olds just aren't thinking about it.

They got "better" things to do with the money...

404 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:10:15pm

re: #400 tradewind

I'm sorry... I cleaned it up, actually..:)
(Ginger... chew a piece of the real stuff, or have some ginger tea. Always works for me).

I'll try that tomorrow at Starbucks, thank you.

405 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:10:57pm

re: #162 albusteve

Beck?

406 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:11:05pm

re: #403 jcm

They got "better" things to do with the money...

fancy car, big-screen TV . . .

407 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:11:06pm

Say it ain't so Joe Barney.

Fannie, Freddie asked to relax condo loan rules: report

In a letter to the CEO's of both companies, Representatives Barney Frank, the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, and Anthony Weiner warned that a 70 percent sales threshold "may be too onerous" and could lead condo buyers to shun new developments, according to the paper.

The legislators asked the companies to "make appropriate adjustments" to their underwriting standards for condos, the paper added.

Second verse same as the first...

408 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:11:18pm

re: #402 VioletTiger

I am still wondering if the 'uninsured' include people like my husband, who have turned down company health insurance because he already has it on my policy.

No, they don't. The Census Bureau factors in spousal coverage in compiling their figures.

409 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:11:22pm

re: #402 VioletTiger

I am still wondering if the 'uninsured' include people like my husband, who have turned down company health insurance because he already has it on my policy.

yes he counts.

47 million uninsured is the biggest crock of shit of all time

410 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:11:43pm
411 FrogMarch  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:11:50pm

re: #371 Van Helsing

I'm also very curious where these numbers regarding the un-insured come from. Anyone have any details? How many of them are un-insured by choice (i.e., young, healthy, no kids, etc.) because they have (or believe they have) a better than average chance of not needing services for anything?

How many have the option of state programs such as AHCCS (in AZ) or the state/federal S-CHIP program but choose not to deal with them?

Many are in-between jobs or young people who opt out. I don't trust the numbers/stats the socialist-democrat party use to scare people into the arms of government.

412 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:11:57pm

re: #397 eon

I'm still waiting for the meaningful apologies;

"Sorry we tried to blow up everything."

Maybe they're waiting for Hallmark to come out with that line. On recycled paper, ecofriendly, etc. :)

413 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:12:13pm

Aw, gosh. I was wrong to post such a personal post.

You Lizards are great.

414 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:12:16pm

re: #409 Shug

whoops, see 408.
Misread what you said.

408 is correct

and 47 million uninsured is still teh biggest crock of shit of all time

415 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:12:22pm

re: #317 Kenneth

The Liberals of the day were not of the Left. The journalists, intellectuals and politicians who admired Stalin & the USSR were Socialists, such as George Bernard Shaw.

re: #348 Dark_Falcon

we could not have kept rolling. By the spring of 1945 we were running out of men at home we could draft and we still had not defeated Japan. We really did have to accept Stalin's conquest of Eastern Europe. However, we shouldn't have pretended it was something other than what it was.

Yes, and I think that was the result of one of FDR's mistakes - not getting Truman into the game. Truman initially was reluctant to make it seem as if the US & UK were "ganging up" on Stalin. I could understand this when the war was still in the balance, but not by the time FDR died. I don't blame Truman for this, he didn't even know about the bomb, etc... .

416 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:12:28pm

re: #399 iceweasel

I'm sure they're still around; they're just not that active right now because we have a Democratic administration, and one they currently perceive as sympathetic to their aims.

Then again, I don't know anyone who is a "tyrant hugging America-hating anti-war psycho" or a "commie pinko lesbian military hating vegetarian".

It's possible to hate war but love your soldiers, and to love your country even while criticising it.

No doubt there are some nuts out there who do fit your description. When they start killing people I'll be first in line demanding that we crack down on leftwing extremism and asking why the media isn't covering it.


I don't know one neo-nazi either, but since I am a Republican living in Arizona, how would I know? :-)

417 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:13:04pm

re: #407 jorline

Say it ain't so Joe Barney.

Fannie, Freddie asked to relax condo loan rules: report

Second verse same as the first...

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

418 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:13:05pm

re: #402 VioletTiger

I am still wondering if the 'uninsured' include people like my husband, who have turned down company health insurance because he already has it on my policy.

My company policy is a "cadillac" type, high tech being so competitive benefits make a difference. My wife did the same thing turned down hers and is on mine. Cheaper for us and better benefits, and she works in health care.

419 eon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:13:16pm

re: #361 MandyManners

Mandy, you, your mom, and your family are in my prayers.

Stay strong.

Your friend,

eon

420 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:13:39pm

re: #384 jcm

The number includes: illegal aliens, those who choose not have insurance but have it available usually the young, those who where uninsured for any period of time during the year, those who have public assistance already available but haven't applied.

Yes, so we were counted as uninsured last year - even though, by Massachusetts state standards, we were not. We didn't want to pay COBRA when my new employment started the second week of a month, so we went for less than a week uninsured. By this measure, we're counted as uninsured for 2008.
Mass. standards are 4 months, IIRC, before you lose the deduction.

421 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:14:26pm

re: #413 MandyManners

Don't be silly, we are all (mostly) friends here, and what are friends for?
My mother is quite ill at the moment, and I recently lost my father.

422 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:14:44pm

re: #364 garden18

I work in a rehab facility for drug users and I can assure you that if marijuana were legalized, many young people would stay stoned the rest of their lives. Another problem: marijuana is a gateway drug for heroin. Many people would die if shooting heroin was legalized. Using drugs because they are illegal may provide excitement for some, but most people use because it's fun and/or because it assuages deep, underlying anguish.


Anyone advocating drug legalization either does not have kids or does not have kids they are concerned about. It is vicious shit. Legalization is only appealing to users.

423 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:14:51pm

re: #415 Flyers1974

Kenneth, sorry, didn't mean to have your reference in my last. Doing too many things at once over here.

424 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:14:56pm

re: #416 Desert Dog

I don't know one neo-nazi either, but since I am a Republican living in Arizona, how would I know? :-)

Heh. I think according to the SPLC map, there's more hate group activity in CA and NJ than near you. :)

That SPLC map is scary though, no matter what state one's in. Here it is for AZ:

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

425 VioletTiger  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:14:59pm

re: #413 MandyManners
No you weren't. We all need a hug sometimes, even if it's a virtual one.

426 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:15:21pm

re: #407 jorline

Say it ain't so Joe Barney.

Fannie, Freddie asked to relax condo loan rules: report

Second verse same as the first...

I'm Barney the Frank, I am , I am,
Barney the Frank, I am.
I'm underwriting the mortgage next door,
even though they've defaulted before.
And what it does to the economy,
truthfully I don't give a care.
I don't give a damn about economy,
just make sure that everything is "fair".

427 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:15:36pm

re: #382 iceweasel

Look, if you are going to quote Paxton in your argument, you are going to have to defend it. I am making the opposite point to Paxton's. He is saying Fascists weren't the same sort of socialists as Marxists, therefore, they can't be any kind of socialist at all. I'm saying there are different types of socialism. There are also several ideological similarities between Fascism & Marxism, as well as common political goals. True they were political enemies, but that does not mean they are polar opposite ideologies. Far from it. They were competing in the same ideological movement for radical anti-establishment change through violence.

428 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:15:37pm
429 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:15:49pm

re: #413 MandyManners

Aw, gosh. I was wrong to post such a personal post.

You Lizards are great.

mandy you is good people and I am sure you are who you are due to your ma. I hope she has a speedy recovery
God Bless her.

430 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:16:19pm

re: #409 Shug

yes he counts.

47 million uninsured is the biggest crock of shit of all time

Obama is about equality...The same mindset that brought National Health to the UK is about to be installed here. We will all have equal coverage...equally bad. I hope there is enough push back on this plan of his. Destroying our current system to give more people medical coverage is not a good idea. Our system is flawed and needs to be reformed, not destroyed and replaced with something much, much worse.

431 FrogMarch  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:16:56pm

re: #361 MandyManners
{Mandy} - I hope your mom recovers.

Responsible folks are vilified and robbed. The democrats solution to everything: Vilify and rob.
And like good little slaves, this nation voted for this crap.
And now we get to watch the pro-government pimping by a major Television media outlet. I feel sick.

432 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:17:06pm

re: #424 iceweasel

Heh. I think according to the SPLC map, there's more hate group activity in CA and NJ than near you. :)

That SPLC map is scary though, no matter what state one's in. Here it is for AZ:

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

It's too damn hot to plot and plan right now...call us when the heat breaks and the snowbirds arrive

433 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:17:07pm

re: #417 Desert Dog

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

We don't get fooled again.
Don't get fooled again.

434 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:17:20pm

Important Announcement:
LSU Tigers, 2009 College Baseball Champs!

435 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:17:23pm

re: #413 MandyManners

Aw, gosh. I was wrong to post such a personal post.

You Lizards are great.

Not at all. Prayers on the way for your mom, you, The Kid and the rest of the family.

436 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:18:07pm

re: #179 Silvergirl

Oh, cool! Thanks!

437 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:18:20pm

re: #417 Desert Dog

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

I think President Bush said it best

Fool me once...shame on...you
Fool me twice...uh...We Won't get fooled again

438 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:18:22pm

Oh my stars.

I DON'T DO TEARS.

439 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:18:50pm

re: #434 reine.de.tout

Important Announcement:
LSU Tigers, 2009 College Baseball Champs!

Good Geauxing

440 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:18:51pm

re: #396 Desert Dog

There was the little matter of the 8-10 MILLION Red Army soldiers standing around Eastern Europe as well. Even if our Air Force was superior (If it was, it was not by much), there is no way we could have told the USSR anything. We had nothing to back it up.

I wonder what would have happened if we'd had some nukes before Yalta. Then we wouldn't have needed Stalin's help with Japan and we could've politely invited him to get his Commie ass out right out of Europe. What a difference a few months might have made.

441 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:19:22pm

re: #427 Kenneth

Look, if you are going to quote Paxton in your argument, you are going to have to defend it. I am making the opposite point to Paxton's. He is saying Fascists weren't the same sort of socialists as Marxists, therefore, they can't be any kind of socialist at all. I'm saying there are different types of socialism. There are also several ideological similarities between Fascism & Marxism, as well as common political goals. True they were political enemies, but that does not mean they are polar opposite ideologies. Far from it. They were competing in the same ideological movement for radical anti-establishment change through violence.

I take your point. It still seems to me that Paxton makes a good point when he notes that while fascists then would use some socialist rhetoric, and employ some socialist policies, once in power they were more than happy to jettison that.

Perhaps the right conclusion to draw is that these divisions are not entirely useful in discussing current politics, and that-- as you note-- violence was and remains a crucial element in any fascist movement.

442 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:19:47pm

re: #438 MandyManners

Oh my stars.

I DON'T DO TEARS.

let'em flow if you need to Mandy. We can't always be hard.

443 legalpad  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:20:38pm

re: #364 garden18

I work in a rehab facility for drug users and I can assure you that if marijuana were legalized, many young people would stay stoned the rest of their lives. Another problem: marijuana is a gateway drug for heroin. Many people would die if shooting heroin was legalized. Using drugs because they are illegal may provide excitement for some, but most people use because it's fun and/or because it assuages deep, underlying anguish.

1. if marijuana were legalized. Or if it's not. Legalization, like alcohol, can be age 21 and up.

2. marijuana is a gateway drug for heroin.
No, alcohol is the "gateway" drug. The difference is, those who sell alcohol do not sell heroin. Those who sell marijuana, do, because they are both illegal.

3. Many people would die if shooting heroin was legalized.
Well, we can start with just marijuana, but many people, including many little children, die now, in the "war on drugs", and at the hands of the very well-funded criminal organizations who are that way because so many drugs are illegal. The Drug Lords thank you for your point of view. It is why they run much of the world. It is why no one can stop them.

4.most people use because it's fun and/or because it assuages deep, underlying anguish.
Much of that anguish exists because drug-funded criminals run much of the planet.

444 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:21:00pm

re: #434 reine.de.tout

Hiya Toots!

445 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:21:04pm
446 FrogMarch  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:21:24pm

Barney Frank is an economic illiterate who should be laughed out of office. Instead - he'll probably be there for life. Instead of pointing out Barney Frank's incredible, dangerous, stupid, ecconomic cluelessness,
the R's will make fun of him for being gay. Which will further alienate swing voters.

447 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:21:27pm

TehranBureau:
Iranian businessmen who left Iran for the west give suggestions on how the west can help.

448 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:21:29pm

re: #432 Desert Dog

It's too damn hot to plot and plan right now...call us when the heat breaks and the snowbirds arrive

Heh. I've been to AZ a few times, and while so many parts of it are beautiful, my only memory of Phoenix is of nearly passing out whenever I had to leave the air conditioning. (I don't deal well with heat.)

449 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:21:42pm

re: #444 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hiya Toots!

FBV!
Hello!

450 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:21:45pm

re: #188 ShanghaiEd

I suspect white flight reaction. Think Gran Torino gone bad.

451 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:22:18pm

re: #438 MandyManners

Oh my stars.

I DON'T DO TEARS.

sometimes a few are good anyway

{MandyManners}

452 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:22:27pm

re: #410 Iron Fist

The Russians had everything in enormous quantaties, most of it of awful quality, though. And an end to alliance would have been an end to endless money comming out of American coffers. We might could have done the same thing to Stalin that we did to Gorebachev, but we'd have had to be willing to starve the Russians to death by the millions (Stalin was). And we had nukes. That precious secret wouldn't last long (they should resrruct the Rosenbergs every year and re-execute them), but while it lasted it was a terrible fist inside a steel glove. If we had been willing to use it, even Stalin might have bent the knee.

That was my thought as well, using the bomb in lieu of ground forces. But how many cities would we have been willing to incinerate in 1945? Especially after the US and UK public were told that the Soviets were are friends, so to speak? Maybe if we knew they would get the bomb, we'd have been more willing.

453 legalpad  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:22:27pm

re: #413 MandyManners

Aw, gosh. I was wrong to post such a personal post.

You Lizards are great.

You're not wrong. I wish some of these great folks could be there with you.

454 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:23:00pm

re: #448 iceweasel

Heh. I've been to AZ a few times, and while so many parts of it are beautiful, my only memory of Phoenix is of nearly passing out whenever I had to leave the air conditioning. (I don't deal well with heat.)

I've been to Phoenix twice. Fortunately, I went in December when it is much cooler. Try going then, you'll like it.

455 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:23:32pm

re: #361 MandyManners

Prayers for her recovery, Mandy, and your peace of mind.

456 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:24:04pm

But is this "right wing extremists" thing any worse now than any other random year in the last, oh, twenty?

Perhaps. 9/11, and all that.

Maybe a bit in reaction to Obama.

Maybe some with the encouragement to radicalism in both directions.

Crazy times.

457 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:24:32pm

I'm watching Barney Frank's interview on O'Really.

How does this fucker get re-elected? He's a slight of hand...quick talking... snake oil salesman.

Example;
O'Really...Health care will cost us over 1 billion dollars.
Frankness...uh, uh...Bill, that over 10 years...that's just 100 million a year.

These fuckers will spend us into the poor house.

458 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:25:16pm

re: #413 MandyManners

Aw, gosh. I was wrong to post such a personal post.

You Lizards are great.

The bottom line is that it's wonderful that your folks have good health insurance.
Best wishes to to and yours.

459 Sambo  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:25:37pm

re: #457 jorline

A billion? I thought it was a trillion.

460 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:25:51pm

re: #457 jorline

I'm watching Barney Frank's interview on O'Really.

How does this fucker get re-elected? He's a slight of hand...quick talking... snake oil salesman.

Example;
O'Really...Health care will cost us over 1 billion dollars.
Frankness...uh, uh...Bill, that over 10 years...that's just 100 million a year.

These fuckers will spend us into the poor house.

and the poor house has a 1 year teaser with an APR that then adjusts to 21%

461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:26:05pm

re: #457 jorline

Does Barney have a speech impediment? (other than the everything that comes out of his mouth is total horseshit)... But, does he have a physical problem?

462 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:26:32pm

Barney Frank, for all his problems, just said something that bears repeating positively:

"The Constitution is basically a restraint on Government. It's not mandate for government. (emphasis in original)

Good to see he at least knows that much.

463 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:26:35pm

re: #457 jorline

I'm watching Barney Frank's interview on O'Really.

How does this fucker get re-elected? He's a slight of hand...quick talking... snake oil salesman professional ass wrangler.

/FTFY

464 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:26:37pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does Barney have a speech impediment? (other than the everything that comes out of his mouth is total horseshit)... But, does he have a physical problem?


he wost all his teef

465 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:26:48pm

re: #440 Spare O'Lake

I wonder what would have happened if we'd had some nukes before Yalta. Then we wouldn't have needed Stalin's help with Japan and we could've politely invited him to get his Commie ass out right out of Europe. What a difference a few months might have made.

The Russians wanted the disputed islands back that the Japanese took from them in 1905. We were in no position to do anything about that either. The Russians were a more powerful force in the world in 1945. We could not stop them in Eastern Europe, nor could we do much about their 1945 Asian adventures either. Our stomach for war was gone.

I am glad we got the bomb first though, because the Russians would have undoubtedly used it as a blackmail device against us. We did on some levels, but it would have been terrible to think of what may have happened if Russia had it and nobody else did.

466 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:26:49pm

re: #441 iceweasel

Paxton argues that because Fascists suppressed marxist socialists, they were no kind of socialist. I am arguing, that Fascism was another type of socialism. Not identical to Marxism, or to Western European social democrats, but rival to them. They suppressed marxists and social democrats as a means to enforcing their own version of national socialism. The ideals of their brand of socialism were nationalism, racialism and collectivism. They were opposed to democracy and free market capitalism.

467 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:27:08pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does Barney have a speech impediment? (other than the everything that comes out of his mouth is total horseshit)... But, does he have a physical problem?

Nope, it's his Boston accent.

468 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:27:08pm

re: #396 Desert Dog

There was the little matter of the 8-10 MILLION Red Army soldiers standing around Eastern Europe as well. Even if our Air Force was superior (If it was, it was not by much), there is no way we could have told the USSR anything. We had nothing to back it up.

Yes, people forget that the Soviets had some nice planes coming out late in the war and in great numbers. Not as good as the P-51, corsair, hellcat, etc... and nothing remotely like the B-17, let alone the B-29, but planes good enough to compete with the Germans.

469 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:27:14pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

He knows it, but he does not like it.

470 legalpad  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:27:17pm

Dr. Strangelove is on TCM

471 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:27:32pm

re: #458 Spare O'Lake

to = you
sorry.

472 eon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:27:33pm

re: #383 Occasional Reader

I don't recall the exact figures, but the Red Air Force was enormous, too, by late spring of 1945.

It was enormous on 15 June, 1941, too. But due to Stalin's purges and his mistrust of his own military command, it was all on the ground, in big, well-mapped airfields where his NKVD types could "keep an eye" on it. Ditto for most of the Red Army's armored divisions. Unfortunately, due to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and some very good espionage, the Germans knew exactly where all those bases were.

Now you know why the Red Air Force was nearly destroyed on the ground, and the 1st, 3rd, and 5th Guards Tank Regiments suffered almost 80% casualties while sitting in their kazernes on the first day of Operation Barbarossa.

Well, that's it for me for tonight. (Holy [bleep]! Is it that late?)

Good night, Lizards.

Pleasant dreams.

cheers

eon

473 sngnsgt  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:28:14pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does Barney have a speech impediment? (other than the everything that comes out of his mouth is total horseshit)... But, does he have a physical problem?

No, Bawney Fwanks spweaks just fwine, is there somethwing wong wiff your heawing?

474 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:28:26pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does Barney have a speech impediment? (other than the everything that comes out of his mouth is total horseshit)... But, does he have a physical problem?

Yes, a big problem. He's still physically in Congress.

475 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:28:33pm

re: #380 Desert Dog

So, there are no more crazy tree sitters, commie pinko lesbian military hating vegetarians, tyrant hugging America-hating anti-war psychos and many other types of nuts and flakes left in the Democrat Party then? Where did they all go?

They got old, DD. Hard to sit in a tree with advanced osteo-arthritis, trust me. Seriously...when have you seen a "tree-sitter"?

What I'm politely saying is that your vocabulary is way out of date, and it's hard to take anybody seriously who uses 40-year-old cliches without irony.

Example: There were anti-war rallies in my town during the runup to Iraq. Except for a scattering of young people of high-school and college age, there were two distinctive groups, visually. One was the "hippies"...which consisted mainly of disabled Vietnam and Gulf War vets. The other group was young professionals...men and women of child-raising age still dressed in their business/work clothes, who apparently had come to the evening march straight from work after picking up their kids from day care or school.

Psychos? Military-hating? Nuts and flakes? I'd have had to squint pretty hard to make that crowd look like the one you describe. Time marches on, and old categories die hard.

476 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:28:34pm

re: #454 Dark_Falcon

I've been to Phoenix twice. Fortunately, I went in December when it is much cooler. Try going then, you'll like it.

I think it was July when I was there. Not the best time!
But I've been to Flagstaff and a bunch of other places in AZ at other times and loved it.
Spent a drunken St Pat's in a bar in Holbrook AZ, we were staying at the WigWam Inn.

It was awesome. The whole town seemed to be there and people were incredibly friendly to us.

477 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:28:41pm

re: #448 iceweasel

Heh. I've been to AZ a few times, and while so many parts of it are beautiful, my only memory of Phoenix is of nearly passing out whenever I had to leave the air conditioning. (I don't deal well with heat.)

AZ is a state of eithers and ors. It's either amazing beautiful and spectacular OR it's fugly as all get out. Phoenix is a nice looking city, but it's grown too big for me. I moved here in the early 80's and it was not even a million people. Now, it's approaching 4 million. It is a sprawling, polluted, traffic infested mess now.

478 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:28:51pm

re: #454 Dark_Falcon

I've been to Phoenix twice. Fortunately, I went in December when it is much cooler. Try going then, you'll like it.

Stop telling people that! Screws it up for us natives.

There's nothing wrong 122 degrees Fahrenheit.
Ummm, just don't go outside barefoot.

479 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:29:03pm

Hey Mandy,

BIG TEARS ARE RIPPING US OFF!

good night all...

480 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:29:12pm
481 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:29:46pm

And now Frank is lying his ass off, blaming Bush for the mortgage crisis. He should get together with Obama and write a new book: The Audacity of Bullshit Lies

/spits

482 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:30:25pm

re: #468 Flyers1974

Yes, people forget that the Soviets had some nice planes coming out late in the war and in great numbers. Not as good as the P-51, corsair, hellcat, etc... and nothing remotely like the B-17, let alone the B-29, but planes good enough to compete with the Germans.

Quantity takes on a quality all it's own.

483 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:30:30pm
484 jcm  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:30:45pm

re: #468 Flyers1974

Yes, people forget that the Soviets had some nice planes coming out late in the war and in great numbers. Not as good as the P-51, corsair, hellcat, etc... and nothing remotely like the B-17, let alone the B-29, but planes good enough to compete with the Germans.

'47 they had the Tu-4, a direct copy of the B-29 down to repairs made on the planes they captured.

485 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:30:50pm

re: #475 ShanghaiEd

They got old, DD. Hard to sit in a tree with advanced osteo-arthritis, trust me. Seriously...when have you seen a "tree-sitter"?

What I'm politely saying is that your vocabulary is way out of date, and it's hard to take anybody seriously who uses 40-year-old cliches without irony.

Example: There were anti-war rallies in my town during the runup to Iraq. Except for a scattering of young people of high-school and college age, there were two distinctive groups, visually. One was the "hippies"...which consisted mainly of disabled Vietnam and Gulf War vets. The other group was young professionals...men and women of child-raising age still dressed in their business/work clothes, who apparently had come to the evening march straight from work after picking up their kids from day care or school.

Psychos? Military-hating? Nuts and flakes? I'd have had to squint pretty hard to make that crowd look like the one you describe. Time marches on, and old categories die hard.

I guess you have never visited zombie's website.

486 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:31:08pm

re: #475 ShanghaiEd

They got old, DD. Hard to sit in a tree with advanced osteo-arthritis, trust me. Seriously...when have you seen a "tree-sitter"?

What I'm politely saying is that your vocabulary is way out of date, and it's hard to take anybody seriously who uses 40-year-old cliches without irony.

Example: There were anti-war rallies in my town during the runup to Iraq. Except for a scattering of young people of high-school and college age, there were two distinctive groups, visually. One was the "hippies"...which consisted mainly of disabled Vietnam and Gulf War vets. The other group was young professionals...men and women of child-raising age still dressed in their business/work clothes, who apparently had come to the evening march straight from work after picking up their kids from day care or school.

Psychos? Military-hating? Nuts and flakes? I'd have had to squint pretty hard to make that crowd look like the one you describe. Time marches on, and old categories die hard.

What's with the "40 year old cliches"? Those are people here among us now. Go to Zombietime and see them for yourself in full living color...hardly 40 years ago...how about last year?

487 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:31:39pm

re: #485 Alouette

Ha! GMTA

488 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:32:03pm

All your innards are belong to me.

/Sunshine

489 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:32:16pm

re: #487 Desert Dog

Ha! GMTA

I love you too

490 BatGuano  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:32:34pm

re: #470 legalpad

Dr. Strangelove is on TCM

A classic.

491 Kenneth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:33:08pm

iceweasel...

I just got your email. Thank you for getting back. I understand the difficulty you described. I'll look forward to your next email.

Cheers

492 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:33:17pm

re: #468 Flyers1974

Yes, people forget that the Soviets had some nice planes coming out late in the war and in great numbers. Not as good as the P-51, corsair, hellcat, etc... and nothing remotely like the B-17, let alone the B-29, but planes good enough to compete with the Germans.

Yes, they had some good planes. But many of those planes were US or UK built. It is often forgotten that much of the Red Air Force flew planes we built and sent to Russia. Some planes, like the P-63 King Cobra, were primarily used by the USSR.

493 FrogMarch  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:33:17pm

re: #481 Dark_Falcon

And now Frank is lying his ass off, blaming Bush for the mortgage crisis. He should get together with Obama and write a new book: The Audacity of Bullshit Lies

/spits

Barney Frank is to blame.

494 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:33:38pm

re: #480 Iron Fist

Truman might could have done something during the Berlin Blockade. The public mood was there for the Berlin Airlift, and I've heard it roumored that Truman threatened to use nukes (I've never been able to verify that, but it is an interesting story. The rumor I heard was that Truman called Molotov into the Oval Office and told him that he had wrestled for many nights before making the decision to drop the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but once the decision was made he slept like a baby. And then he said to Molotov "Last night, I, too, slept like a baby." Cool story, but I don't even remember where I heard it. Probably fiction, but damn wouldn't that have frosted Molotov's shorts :-)

Talk about a guy with no soul, Molotov. I don't remember who, but someone called him the perfect representative for the Soviet machine. I hope your story is true, it sounds pretty cool.

495 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:33:40pm

All this talk of Russian power in 1945, keep in mind that one reason they had so much, is that our kick-ass military did not spend the previous 4 years
attempting to destroy it.

496 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:34:37pm

re: #459 Sambo

A billion? I thought it was a trillion.

I just played back the DVR and stand corrected.

O'Really did say a trillion...Barney came back with "it's just 100 million a year over ten years...Barney's fuzzy math.

One trillion divided by 10 = 100 million...hooked on phonics.

497 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:34:54pm

re: #483 Iron Fist

Let's see him point that out if Obama tries to get a re-authorization of the "Assault Weapons" ban through congress.

Quite concur.

498 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:35:25pm

re: #490 BatGuano

A classic.

No fighting in the war room!
The mineshaft gap.
Major Kong.
Spoiler - watch at your own risk
Ok, it's 45 years old - I think we all know what happened.

499 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:35:58pm

re: #460 Shug

and the poor house has a 1 year teaser with an APR that then adjusts to 21%

One year broken ARM.

500 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:36:03pm

re: #485 Alouette

I guess you have never visited zombie's website.

Yeah, but for every picture of a nutbar with a giant papiermache puppet head, there are thousands of antiwar protesters who are normal people.

Those pics aren't the best window into the entire antiwar movement, or the average protester.

I can't speak for all the marches ever, but I know I attended one that zombie posted photos of, and that one looked a lot different on the ground than the idea you get from just viewing those selected pics.

501 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:36:15pm

re: #492 Dark_Falcon

Yes, they had some good planes. But many of those planes were US or UK built. It is often forgotten that much of the Red Air Force flew planes we built and sent to Russia. Some planes, like the P-63 King Cobra, were primarily used by the USSR.

They also used P-39's and I think P-40.'s No Spitfires from the Brits, I think but Hurricanes.

502 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:36:20pm

re: #496 jorline

I just played back the DVR and stand corrected.

O'Really did say a trillion...Barney came back with "it's just 100 million a year over ten years...Barney's fuzzy math.

One trillion divided by 10 = 100 million billion...hooked on phonics.

damn when you say it like that...

We hosed.

503 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:37:01pm

re: #491 Kenneth

iceweasel...

I just got your email. Thank you for getting back. I understand the difficulty you described. I'll look forward to your next email.

Cheers

No problem Kenneth, I appreciate it, as always. I'll be writing you soon.
(and as ever, looking forward to our next debates here. :) )

504 capitalist piglet  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:37:52pm

re: #179 Silvergirl

Way OT

Charlie Parker fans?
Complete Savoy & Dial Studio Recordings 1944-1948 on the Amazon Gold Box deal for a while longer at 60% off.

A (now deceased) friend of mine once lived with Chan, Charlie Parker's wife. He had serious stories. "She" called him (my friend) a "sonofabitch" in 'Round Midnight. LOL

505 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:39:06pm
506 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:39:22pm

re: #495 Tarkus289

All this talk of Russian power in 1945, keep in mind that one reason they had so much, is that our kick-ass military did not spend the previous 4 years
attempting to destroy it.

They mauled and got mauled by the Germans for many years. The Russians took the brunt of the German military. We did not fully engage them until we landed in France in 1944. We had tastes of it in N. Africa and Italy, but it really wasn't until we got close to Germany in 1945 that we really got going with them. On the Eastern front, the Russians fought the Nazis in a death struggle from 1942 on.

507 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:39:58pm

re: #475 ShanghaiEd


Psychos? Military-hating? Nuts and flakes? I'd have had to squint pretty hard to make that crowd look like the one you describe. Time marches on, and old categories die hard.

The old categories and tropes were just hanging in the closet all the time, like a pair of wrinkled nasty bellbottoms. They smell funny and look weird now, but some people have dragged them out and are wearing them again.

508 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:40:46pm

re: #501 Flyers1974

They also used P-39's and I think P-40.'s No Spitfires from the Brits, I think but Hurricanes.

They did use the Spitfire. They received 143 Spitfire Mk. Vs, and almost 1200 Mk. IXs.

Source: Aircraft of WWII by Stewart Wilson.

509 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:41:04pm

re: #502 SasquatchOnSteroids

damn when you say it like that...

We hosed.

Barney's book of math says 100 million...he's an all knowing Congressman!

510 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:41:11pm

re: #500 iceweasel

Yeah, but for every picture of a nutbar with a giant papiermache puppet head, there are thousands of antiwar protesters who are normal people.

Those pics aren't the best window into the entire antiwar movement, or the average protester.

I can't speak for all the marches ever, but I know I attended one that zombie posted photos of, and that one looked a lot different on the ground than the idea you get from just viewing those selected pics.

Sorta like Tea Parties, eh? The only thing I hear about them is a bunch of nuts were there spouting off nonsense. That is odd because that is not what I heard happened at these events by people that attended them.

511 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:41:22pm

re: #496 jorline

I just played back the DVR and stand corrected.

O'Really did say a trillion...Barney came back with "it's just 100 million a year over ten years...Barney's fuzzy math.

One trillion divided by 10 = 100 million...hooked on phonics.

Barney Frank is too stupid to know the difference between 100 Billion a year and 100 Million a year?

We are all focked.

512 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:41:50pm

re: #506 Desert Dog

They mauled and got mauled by the Germans for many years. The Russians took the brunt of the German military. We did not fully engage them until we landed in France in 1944. We had tastes of it in N. Africa and Italy, but it really wasn't until we got close to Germany in 1945 that we really got going with them. On the Eastern front, the Russians fought the Nazis in a death struggle from 1941 on.

Slight correction. The Germans invaded on June 22nd, 1941.

513 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:42:33pm

re: #506 Desert Dog

Its amazing the number of Russian deaths both military and civilian, and the number of German deaths caused by the Soviets. I read somewhere recently that the five largest WWII ground battles involved the Soviets. I'm going to double check that though.

514 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:42:51pm

re: #512 Dark_Falcon

Slight correction. The Germans invaded on June 22nd, 1941.

Barbarossa

515 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:42:51pm

Today, Obama said

And if we fail to act, federal spending on Medicaid and Medicare will grow over the coming decades by an amount almost equal to the amount our government currently spends on our nation's defense. In fact, it will eventually grow larger than what our government spends on anything else today.

We won't be able to afford Medicaid and Medicare, but we'll be able to cover every last citizen. Sounds good to me.

516 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:42:52pm

re: #505 Iron Fist

Speaking of countries we should nuke:


Sink the ship, shoot down their missile, and then do an above ground test where their reactor is standing.

The world is watching...us do nothing.

I think just letting a Tomahawk fly in Kim Jong Il's bedroom window would do the job.

Having a couple of dozen B-52s circling the DMZ would probably discourage any aggressive activities towards Seoul.

517 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:43:34pm
518 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:43:55pm

re: #511 Racer X

Barney Frank is too stupid to know the difference between 100 Billion a year and 100 Million a year?

We are all focked.

That's why he didn't think Freddie and Fannie were in trouble several years ago.

519 capitalist piglet  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:44:06pm

re: #504 capitalist piglet

A (now deceased) friend of mine once lived with Chan, Charlie Parker's wife. He had serious stories. "She" called him (my friend) a "sonofabitch" in 'Round Midnight. LOL

Oops. I meant Bird. Oy!

520 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:44:33pm

re: #510 Desert Dog

Sorta like Tea Parties, eh? The only thing I hear about them is a bunch of nuts were there spouting off nonsense. That is odd because that is not what I heard happened at these events by people that attended them.

That's what I was thinking of!

It's the equivalent of looking at a couple of pics of people at tea parties who have racist signs or whatever and concluding everyone there is a nut.

I'm sure a lot of the people attending them are good people with valid concerns. I just think they're being tainted by the radical/fringe element of paulians and white supremacists, and I don't think mailing teabags to congress is effective political action.

(same happened with the legit anti-war people and code pink/cindy sheehan, IMO)

521 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:45:21pm

re: #482 Van Helsing

Quantity takes on a quality all it's own.

Nice one. I can't recall who said that originally.

522 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:45:51pm

re: #509 jorline

Barney's book of math says 100 million...he's an all knowing Congressman!

So it's ignorance and stupidity driving this outrageous rape of the taxpayers.
I feel so much better now.

I thought they were evil. Turns out they're just idiots.

Oh well, "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence".

523 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:46:15pm

re: #509 jorline

Barney's book of math says 100 million...he's an all knowing Congressman!

I remember a bunch of Congressmen a few years back who bounced checks like there was no tomorrow.

Now if you can't even balance a fucking check book...well, you know.

524 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:46:23pm
525 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:46:49pm

The only hope for Seoul, is if the NK military defies its order to unleash the artillery, and that does not seem too likely unless we get to them with and
convince them that their whole life they have been misinformed. I believe they have 48,000 artillery pieces aimed at Seoul.

526 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:46:51pm

re: #505 Iron Fist

Speaking of countries we should nuke:

Sink the ship, shoot down their missile, and then do an above ground test where their reactor is standing.

The world is watching...us do nothing.

Not quite yet today, but wait for the moment, and then, yes.

527 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:46:54pm

re: #513 Flyers1974

Its amazing the number of Russian deaths both military and civilian, and the number of German deaths caused by the Soviets. I read somewhere recently that the five largest WWII ground battles involved the Soviets. I'm going to double check that though.

Some of the largest battles EVER took place between the Germans and the Soviets. That was total war too...everyone was a target, everyone suffered. We sometimes lose sight of the fact that 10's of millions of Russians civilians died in that war. Europe suffered, but Russia suffered the most

528 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:47:01pm

re: #518 solomonpanting

That's why he didn't think Freddie and Fannie were in trouble several years ago.

Cheese and crackers got all muddy. I cannot fathom why this man is still in public office.

529 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:47:12pm

re: #513 Flyers1974

Its amazing the number of Russian deaths both military and civilian, and the number of German deaths caused by the Soviets. I read somewhere recently that the five largest WWII ground battles involved the Soviets. I'm going to double check that though.

I think I heard that most of the battles in WW2 were between the Germans and the Russians.
It seems true, considering 27 million Russians were killed.

530 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:47:14pm

re: #511 Racer X

Barney Frank is too stupid to know the difference between 100 Billion a year and 100 Million a year?

We are all focked.

What's 900 million when it's taxpayers money.
/
We've entered a whole new era of the definition of "real money".

531 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:47:30pm

re: #521 Flyers1974

Nice one. I can't recall who said that originally.

I've seen it attributed to Uncle Josef Stalin hissown self.
No guarantee on that.

532 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:47:45pm

re: #485 Alouette

I guess you have never visited zombie's website.

I've visited Zombie's website often. Very weird stuff. Please note that I was replying very specifically to Desert Dog's note #190 in which he said:

It's OK to have crazy tree sitters, commie pinko lesbian military hating vegetarians, tyrant hugging America-hating anti-war psychos and many other types of nuts and flakes...that IS the Democrat party.

Can anybody say, with a straight face, that San Francisco is representative of the Democratic Party? Much less IS the Party? Seriously?

533 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:47:48pm

1 trillion / 10 years = 100,000 million a year, correct ?

534 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:48:31pm
535 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:48:42pm

re: #525 Tarkus289

The only hope for Seoul, is if the NK military defies its order to unleash the artillery, and that does not seem too likely unless we get to them with and
convince them that their whole life they have been misinformed. I believe they have 48,000 artillery pieces aimed at Seoul.

You can kiss Seoul goodbye if they fire 1/2 of what they got. Of course, the Norks will be kissing their asses goodbye right afterwards. So, if they are craving death, they can fire on the south.

536 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:48:59pm

I prefer saying it as how many millions.

1 Billion sounds a lot less than 1000 million

537 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:49:05pm

re: #532 ShanghaiEd

Can anybody say, with a straight face, that San Francisco is representative of the Democratic Party? Much less IS the Party? Seriously?

Unfortunately, yes, I think.

538 BatGuano  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:49:11pm

re: #533 Shug

1 trillion / 10 years = 100,000 million a year, correct ?

Math-wise? no.

539 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:49:35pm

re: #533 Shug

100 Billion per year.

540 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:49:40pm

At some point, you just gotta' let go. Let God.Your text to link...

541 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:50:05pm

re: #533 Shug

1 trillion / 10 years = 100,000 million a year, correct ?

Yes. If you're a corrupt politician who is looking to screw America for the next hundred years.

542 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:50:37pm
543 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:50:49pm

re: #534 Iron Fist

International ANSWER started up just days after 9-11. There may have been legitimate anti-war people, but they grafted themselves onto an organization and movement wholly owned by anti-Americans.

You can be anti-war or attend an anti-war protest without having to be a member of ANSWER or be anti-American.

I think it's probably fair to say that whenever there's any kind of political movement, there will be cynical bastards infiltrating to exploiting it for their own ends.

544 capitalist piglet  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:50:54pm

re: #532 ShanghaiEd

Can anybody say, with a straight face, that San Francisco is representative of the Democratic Party? Much less IS the Party? Seriously?

Would you say DemocraticUnderground is a fair representation of Democrats?

545 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:51:08pm

re: #536 Shug

I prefer saying it as how many millions.

1 Billion sounds a lot less than 1000 million

So One Trillion would be One Hundred Thousand Million?

546 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:51:26pm

Dmitri!

547 BatGuano  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:51:26pm

Someone asked how Barney Frank could be re-elected. From the lefties here, what is the appeal?

548 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:51:29pm

re: #533 Shug

1 trillion / 10 years = 100,000 million a year, correct ?

I think you're off by a factor of a brazilian, or maybe an argentinian.

549 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:51:57pm

re: #532 ShanghaiEd

Can anybody say, with a straight face, that San Francisco is representative of the Democratic Party? Much less IS the Party? Seriously?

Exactly. Thank you.

It's like claiming the Folsom Street Fetish Fair is representative of all gay people. It's not.

550 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:52:06pm

re: #548 itellu3times

just a couple of somalians.

551 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:52:14pm

re: #511 Racer X

Barney Frank is too stupid to know the difference between 100 Billion a year and 100 Million a year?

We are all focked.

* * * *
I just returned from the Red Sox nation's beating up on the Washington Nationals.

Barney Frank's got no need to get the numbers right, he and his friends have had their hands in the cookie jar. Frank's not a bean counter, he's a billions spender.

Despite the crappy economy, money appears to be no object to Massachusetts people who swarmed into DC and broke all attendance records at the relatively new Nationals Stadium.

552 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:52:26pm
553 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:52:31pm

re: #523 SasquatchOnSteroids

I remember a bunch of Congressmen a few years back who bounced checks like there was no tomorrow.

Now if you can't even balance a fucking check book...well, you know.

lmao I remember that.

It was the Congressional Bank, correct?
Little did we know those banking procedures would become general congressional banking practices. No money in the account...print more!

554 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:52:40pm

re: #544 capitalist piglet

Would you say DemocraticUnderground is a fair representation of Democrats?

Hell no! DU is the Free Republic of the left!

555 subsailor68  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:52:50pm

re: #533 Shug

1 trillion / 10 years = 100,000 million a year, correct ?

Year 1: 100 billion
Year 2: 100 billion
Year 3: 100 billion
Year 4: 100 billion
Year 5: 100 billion
Year 6: 100 billion
Year 7: 100 billion
Year 8: 100 billion
Year 9: 100 billion
Year 10: 100 billion

100 billion times 10 equals 1 trillion. Billion, not Million.

(Didn't do that little chart for you - I figure you got it - it's a handy pocket chart for Barney Frank.)

556 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:52:58pm

re: #545 Racer X

So One Trillion would be One Hundred Thousand Million?


1 trillion is 1 million million, right?

and over 10 years that's 100,000 million per year = 1 million millions.

of course, it will cost much much more than that.

I'm lost without a calculator.

Whatever if costs, it's too damned much!

557 BatGuano  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:53:15pm

re: #546 MandyManners

Dmitri!

I didn't call just to say" hello", Dmitri.

558 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:53:30pm
559 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:53:33pm

re: #532 ShanghaiEd

Can anybody say, with a straight face, that San Francisco is representative of the Democratic Party? Much less IS the Party? Seriously?

Nancy Pelosi

560 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:53:41pm

re: #534 Iron Fist

International ANSWER started up just days after 9-11. There may have been legitimate anti-war people, but they grafted themselves onto an organization and movement wholly owned by anti-Americans.

Excellent point.
Any 'cause' is going to have some kind of f***heads graft themselves to it.

561 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:54:05pm

re: #505 Iron Fist

Speaking of countries we should nuke:


Sink the ship, shoot down their missile, and then do an above ground test where their reactor is standing.

The world is watching...us do nothing.

Might be a good idea to see what's on the ship, watch the missile (they are nowhere close to miniaturizing a nuke to place on a rocket), and not nuke a country without a formal declaration of war.

Just a thought.

And hasn't Charles mentioned a time or two about this kind of rabidity?

562 Desert Dog  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:54:10pm

Good night all, I have to get the 8 year old in the bath...he's getting pretty "ripe" after a day of swimming and sweating. Thanks for the mind exercise, as usual!

563 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:54:12pm

re: #531 Van Helsing

I've seen it attributed to Uncle Josef Stalin hissown self.
No guarantee on that.

Either Stalin or Lenin I was thinking.

564 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:54:14pm

re: #556 Shug

One thousand million = 1 billion.

565 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:54:30pm

re: #556 Shug

1 trillion is 1 million million, right?

and over 10 years that's 100,000 million per year = 1 million millions.

of course, it will cost much much more than that.

I'm lost without a calculator.

Whatever if costs, it's too damned much!

I'm afraid a lot of people's intuition gets lost with these many zeroes.

566 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:54:30pm

re: #533 Shug

1 trillion / 10 years = 100,000 million a year, correct ?

We have a winner.
Shug, you're now qualified to hold office anywhere in DC.

567 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:54:36pm

re: #537 itellu3times

Unfortunately, yes, I think.

Then it seems to me like you're using the same hyperbole that you've condemned when names like Roeper and von Brunn are identified with the "Right." Right?

568 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:54:40pm
569 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:55:03pm

re: #551 alegrias

* * * *
I just returned from the Red Sox nation's beating up on the Washington Nationals.

Barney Frank's got no need to get the numbers right, he and his friends have had their hands in the cookie jar. Frank's not a bean counter, he's a billions spender.

Despite the crappy economy, money appears to be no object to Massachusetts people who swarmed into DC and broke all attendance records at the relatively new Nationals Stadium.

But heres what I don't get. Every time Barney gets criticized the lefties say he is so smart and has a great financial mind. I don't see it. Can someone give me an example of Barney Frank's expertise?

Why has he been in congress, and more specifically, on the financial committee for so long?

570 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:55:19pm

re: #566 jorline

We have a winner.
Shug, you're now qualified to hold office anywhere in DC.

Math Czar.

I think I am qualified. I don't have a clue what I am talking about

571 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:55:26pm

re: #543 iceweasel

You can be anti-war or attend an anti-war protest without having to be a member of ANSWER or be anti-American.

I think it's probably fair to say that whenever there's any kind of political movement, there will be cynical bastards infiltrating to exploiting it for their own ends.

* * * *
Sorry but my experience is that so-called "anti-war" folks are just rooting for the other side, and in fact do lots of violent property damage while pretending to be "peace" loving.

(20 years observing "peace" protests in Washington DC up close & personal)

572 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:55:31pm

re: #535 Desert Dog

You can kiss Seoul goodbye if they fire 1/2 of what they got. Of course, the Norks will be kissing their asses goodbye right afterwards. So, if they are craving death, they can fire on the south.

OK. B52s and A10s. Timed with the Tomahawk in the bedroom window.

573 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:55:33pm

re: #568 MandyManners

Let us cut to the end.

Lovely song. One of Louis Armstrong's best, and that's saying something.

574 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:56:00pm

re: #538 BatGuano

Math-wise? no.

Are we going to believe you...or Barney Frank.

575 subsailor68  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:56:18pm

I'll turn 60 next year. What does that have to do with the price of tea? Well, I was sitting with some friends the other night, and someone asked, "it goes million, billion, trillion, right? What's after that?"

I had to think for a minute. It should be quadrillion. Why did I need to think about it?

For the same reason I would have had to think about the question "what comes after a trillion" back when I was in my 20's.

There wasn't really a need to know, way back then.

576 Shug  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:56:19pm

re: #564 Tarkus289

One thousand million = 1 billion.

so 100,000 million = 100 billion.

So I was correct. I need lots of fact checking

577 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:56:30pm

re: #508 Dark_Falcon

They did use the Spitfire. They received 143 Spitfire Mk. Vs, and almost 1200 Mk. IXs.

Source: Aircraft of WWII by Stewart Wilson.

They used a shitpot of King Cobras as tank killers. That 37 mm gun through the propeller hub was a bear.

578 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:56:39pm

re: #570 Shug

Math Czar.

I think I am qualified. I don't have a clue what I am talking about

That's who gets elected to office.

579 capitalist piglet  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:56:46pm

re: #554 iceweasel

Hell no! DU is the Free Republic of the left!

Well, that's a comfort...because when I read that forum, I can't believe how far removed I am from the way some Americans think. There are two or three people who seem reasonable and sane to me there. The rest, not so much.

580 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:57:04pm
581 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:57:29pm

YEEEHAWWW.

582 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:57:48pm

No one's laughing at God

Love this song.

583 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:57:59pm

re: #571 alegrias

* * * *
Sorry but my experience is that so-called "anti-war" folks are just rooting for the other side, and in fact do lots of violent property damage while pretending to be "peace" loving.

(20 years observing "peace" protests in Washington DC up close & personal)

Observing the worst excesses of those people isn't indicative of how "all antiwar" people feel, think, or act.

For instance, the vast majority of them have probably never been to a protest.

584 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:58:20pm

If you are a Democrat you must embrace your inner Nancy.

585 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:59:01pm

re: #548 itellu3times

I think you're off by a factor of a brazilian, or maybe an argentinian.

We're talking monster numbers here, so I think he's off by a Godzillian.

586 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:59:02pm

re: #548 itellu3times

I think you're off by a factor of a brazilian, or maybe an argentinian.

I see you're taking us along the Appalachian Trail.

587 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:59:08pm

re: #552 Iron Fist

Who is Chairperson of the House of Representatives? San Fran Nan is the face of the Democratic Party, and she has been for a few years now.

Yes, she is. How many votes does she have among the 435? "Face" and "representative" (lower case) are two completely different things, I think.

588 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:59:19pm

re: #561 austin_blue

Might be a good idea to see what's on the ship, watch the missile (they are nowhere close to miniaturizing a nuke to place on a rocket), and not nuke a country without a formal declaration of war.

Just a thought.

And hasn't Charles mentioned a time or two about this kind of rabidity?

We're still at war with North Korea. A cease fire has been in place for the last 56 years.

589 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:59:23pm

"Hi THERE. DEAR JOHN".

590 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:59:23pm

re: #579 capitalist piglet

Well, that's a comfort...because when I read that forum, I can't believe how far removed I am from the way some Americans think. There are two or three people who seem reasonable and sane to me there. The rest, not so much.

Hey, I'm a lefty and even I think they're nuts. So does everyone in the lefty/prog blogosphere. They really are like the Free Republic of the left, a weird little internet niche where the wackos seem to congregate.

591 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 8:59:47pm

Can we call the police on Congress? Because they are seriously robbing us blind.

592 BatGuano  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:00:08pm

re: #574 jorline

Are we going to believe you...or Barney Frank.

Look. I hope we can do the right thing. I don't think I should meddle in the area that might be regarded as the truth.

593 subsailor68  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:00:28pm

re: #575 subsailor68

For the same reason I would have had to think about the question "what comes after a trillion billion" back when I was in my 20's.

PIMF

594 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:00:47pm
595 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:01:06pm

re: #571 alegrias

* * * *
Sorry but my experience is that so-called "anti-war" folks are just rooting for the other side, and in fact do lots of violent property damage while pretending to be "peace" loving.

(20 years observing "peace" protests in Washington DC up close & personal)

Yes, but DC is ground zero for the nuttiest of nuts. I'm just north of you and the anti-war people I've seen are very tame.

596 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:01:10pm

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

597 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:01:16pm

"Anti-war people"
*snort*

Partisans.

Surge in Afghanistan...

598 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:01:16pm

G'nite all. Be well. Keep disagreeing. Please be honorable. It's hard. I know.

599 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:01:29pm

It has only taken me 40+ years to get this, but let me share -

Americans, when confronted with incompetent leaders, tend to replace them with even more incompetent leaders. Why? They are offered no other choice.

600 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:01:35pm

re: #567 ShanghaiEd

Then it seems to me like you're using the same hyperbole that you've condemned when names like Roeper and von Brunn are identified with the "Right." Right?

hey wot?

I'm opposing hyperbole associating nutballs with right or left, but Pelosi is only the friggin' speaker of the house and almost necessarily defines the center of her party. She "can't be a nutball" for that reason.

She is France, and France is She.

Though Louis XI didn't have botox.

601 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:01:40pm

re: #569 Racer X

But heres what I don't get. Every time Barney gets criticized the lefties say he is so smart and has a great financial mind. I don't see it. Can someone give me an example of Barney Frank's expertise?

Why has he been in congress, and more specifically, on the financial committee for so long?

* * * *
Barney Frank got a JD at Harvard U in 1977. He is very verbal. One gay friend said Frank's a real jerk.

Ask the good people of Massachusetts' 4th Congressional District why they keep re-electing him.

602 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:02:25pm

re: #594 Iron Fist

Anti-war was, effectively, during the last war, pro-Saddam Hussein. I asked my question to austin_blue, but I'll ask you as well, what gives? What was so great about Saddam Hussein that you wanted him as the unconditional military dictator of Iraq? Or his certifiably psychotic offspring indulging their various predilections?

I don't have a problem with getting rid of Saddam, believe me.

603 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:02:28pm

re: #587 ShanghaiEd

Yes, she is. How many votes does she have among the 435? "Face" and "representative" (lower case) are two completely different things, I think.

As the Speaker of the House she controls what gets to the floor for debates and votes.

Y'all really think that what shows up isn't going to reflect her self-stated 'San Francisco values'?

604 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:02:41pm

re: #586 jorline

I see you're taking us along the Appalachian Trail.

fify

605 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:02:49pm

re: #577 austin_blue

They used a shitpot of King Cobras as tank killers. That 37 mm gun through the propeller hub was a bear.

It was indeed. They also had the IL-2 Shturmovik, which had a pair of most excellent 20-mm cannons. A very good plane when used correctly. Glad to see someone who knows about WWII details. This is one of only three places I can talk about WWII without spending the whole time teaching others about the war. Most people know so little about it that you cannot actually discuss the battles, all you can do is teach. I do the teaching willingly, but I like having the discussions even more.

606 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:02:56pm

re: #544 capitalist piglet

Would you say DemocraticUnderground is a fair representation of Democrats?

Nope. I'm guessing a fraction of a percent. Much like Free Republic on the "other side." I can't quote the traffic figures of the two sites, but it would be interesting to know.

607 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:03:33pm

re: #600 itellu3times

hey wot?

I'm opposing hyperbole associating nutballs with right or left, but Pelosi is only the friggin' speaker of the house and almost necessarily defines the center of her party. She "can't be a nutball" for that reason.

She is France, and France is She.

Though Louis XI didn't have botox.

Well wait a sec, it's worth noting that even Democrats really, really dislike her.

608 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:04:02pm

re: #596 MandyManners

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Up-thread a bit. I posted the YouTube link.

Love that bomb...

609 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:04:15pm

re: #580 Iron Fist

We all ready had a declaration of war by Kim Jong Il. I'm saying we should take him at his word, and get with winning the war.

Why are the Left so eager to defend any monsterous dictatorship? Saddam Hussein, L'il Kim, Iran, as long as they are brutal the Left seem to love them.

I don't want to defend them. I certainly don't love them. I just don't want us to be held accountable for several million unnecessary deaths. You have seen the multitudes that have come out to resist the existing regime in Iran. You have mourned the death of Neda as if she were kin. Do you really think a nuclear strike on Iran or the PRNK is justifiable? I just don't right now. If you disagree, I would like to hear your reasoning.

610 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:04:27pm
611 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:04:36pm

re: #592 BatGuano

Look. I hope we can do the right thing. I don't think I should meddle in the area that might be regarded as the truth.

Starting a sentence with the word look, is an Obamanation.
/

612 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:04:53pm

re: #583 iceweasel

Observing the worst excesses of those people isn't indicative of how "all antiwar" people feel, think, or act.

For instance, the vast majority of them have probably never been to a protest.

* * *
I'm just telling you what violent qualities I observed in so-called "peace"/anti-war protesters, while trying to get to work and not destroy other people's personal property as these jerks did here in the Nation's Capital.

Your experience may differ.

613 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:05:00pm

re: #607 iceweasel

Well wait a sec, it's worth noting that even Democrats really, really dislike her.

Apparently they love to hate her.

614 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:05:04pm
615 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:05:47pm

re: #607 iceweasel

Well wait a sec, it's worth noting that even Democrats really, really dislike her.

So what?

616 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:06:45pm

re: #614 MandyManners

Youtube Video

617 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:07:03pm

re: #594 Iron Fist

Anti-war was, effectively, during the last war, pro-Saddam Hussein. I asked my question to austin_blue, but I'll ask you as well, what gives? What was so great about Saddam Hussein that you wanted him as the unconditional military dictator of Iraq? Or his certifiably psychotic offspring indulging their various predilections?

Or his continual flaunting of UN resolutions?
OK, maybe not something that anyone pays attention to but those resolutions came about because of GWI and dammit it was OUR planes he was shooting at!
Just goes to show that UN is nothing more than a sub-par high school debate team.

618 Sergeant Major  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:08:04pm

Here's the problem with Korea if the North really wants to invade South the US forces there are merely a speed bump. The equipment we have there is very out dated and in very poor condition. The only good news if there is any the North could not sustain a large scale conflict without the help of ..oh lets say China or Russia. Our soldiers are extremely "tired" for lack of a better word.

619 BatGuano  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:08:30pm

re: #611 jorline

Starting a sentence with the word look, is an Obamanation.
/

I'm as sick of it as everyone else. :)

620 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:08:40pm

re: #599 karmic_inquisitor

It has only taken me 40+ years to get this, but let me share -

Americans, when confronted with incompetent leaders, tend to replace them with even more incompetent leaders. Why? They are offered no other choice.

Sadly true. It's not like we've had the cream of the crop to choose from for the last 20 years or so.

621 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:08:50pm

re: #610 Iron Fist

But the anti-war people, a great many of them, did. Not just the screaming nutcases who went to Iraq as human shields, but the avreage protestors. Go look hard at Zombietime, and explain it to me. 'Cause I just don't get it.

I don't know what those people objected to, but this is what the average antiwar protester objected to: not removing Saddam, but the reasons we were initially given for his removal: WMD, responsible for 9-11.

Those reasons were false. People were angry. People continue to be angry about the loss of life. And the lack of an exit strategy. And on and on...but we're there now, and we have to deal with that, not refight issues that should have come up more in 2003.

Did people go to Iraq to be human shields?

622 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:09:02pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

It was indeed. They also had the IL-2 Shturmovik, which had a pair of most excellent 20-mm cannons. A very good plane when used correctly. Glad to see someone who knows about WWII details. This is one of only three places I can talk about WWII without spending the whole time teaching others about the war. Most people know so little about it that you cannot actually discuss the battles, all you can do is teach. I do the teaching willingly, but I like having the discussions even more.

Oh my, I am a huge fan of that history. You mention Kursk to the vast majority of the unwashed and they get all glazed up, not knowing it was the single greatest armored battle in history and broke the German's back in the east. Brutal, gut wrenching, slug it out warfare.

623 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:09:04pm

re: #584 The Shadow Do

If you are a Democrat you must embrace your inner Nancy.

I'll take your word that this is in their by-laws, Shadow. Independents don't have to embrace anybody. And I like it that way.

624 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:09:33pm
625 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:09:36pm

re: #609 austin_blue

I don't want to defend them. I certainly don't love them. I just don't want us to be held accountable for several million unnecessary deaths. You have seen the multitudes that have come out to resist the existing regime in Iran. You have mourned the death of Neda as if she were kin. Do you really think a nuclear strike on Iran or the PRNK is justifiable? I just don't right now. If you disagree, I would like to hear your reasoning.

Must concur. Though, we might do well delivering a warning to the Norks: Fire a missile towards Hawaii and we shoot it down. Don't threaten to attack their territory, but put them on notice that we won't let scare us. They launch that missile, we knock it down. Would that be appropriate to you?

626 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:10:08pm

re: #621 iceweasel

Did people go to Iraq to be human shields?


Yes.

627 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:10:18pm

I would rather we be held responsible for millions of deaths, than suffer them.

/ I am not suggesting it, I'm just saying sometimes you snooze, you lose.
What if Japan got the bomb first, New York, Chicago and L. A. would be the
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

628 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:10:46pm

re: #615 The Shadow Do

So what?

If the majority of Democrats hate her, how can she be said to be representative (in any but the titular sense) of Democrats?

629 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:11:47pm

1 trillion dollar bills laid out end to end is 500 billion feet.

500 billion feet is 94,696,969 miles.

The sun is @ 93,000,000 miles away from earth.

He is taking us into the bowels of hell.

630 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:13:07pm

George W. Bush never ever said Saddam was responsible for 9/11, he went out of his way to say we had no proof, and did not even suggest it. We went to war with Iraq for 24 reasons, number 8 was WMD.

631 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:13:31pm

re: #624 Iron Fist

North Korea is a no-brainer for a lot of different reasons. Number one, for all their avowed military might, they really don't have much. What they do have is artillery, and a lot of it, aimed at South Korea, mostly Seoul. If we fight the war they want to figght, we have massive civillian casualties in the South, and economic devistation. We don't want to fight that war.

You sink the ship to send one type of message, and shoot down the missile to send a second. You use a low-yield weapon to destroy their nuclear plant to send a third message, and it is this third message that stops them from shelling Seoul. Kim Jong Il might very well give the order, but his generals won't pass it to the troops. Not if they know we really will nuke them.

I am sorry, but I must disagree. That is pulling the control rods out of the reactor to show the neighborhood how much control you have over the production of electricity.

632 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:13:51pm

Just posted by [TEHRAN BUREAU]

Leaving Tehran

As I drove out of Tehran on Sunday evening to head for the airport I scanned the city for signs of activity. Of course, ragged looking Basij and faceless security forces were visible, but the crowds we’d grown so accustomed to were nowhere in sight. I realized that sadly, when they stop coming out, this story ends and the world will in all likelihood stop paying attention.

Iranians in opposition to the Islamic system have had three decades to figure out what it is that they’d do differently if they were in charge, and I think defining and expressing that is the next phase of this process of evolution (or maturation) that is what’s actually taking place.

633 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:14:45pm
634 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:15:01pm

re: #628 iceweasel

If the majority of Democrats hate her, how can she be said to be representative (in any but the titular sense) of Democrats?

* * * *
Pelosi represents California, the most populous state with very liberal democrat positions on issues.

Pelosi was voted speaker by her fellow democrat legislators I think, so she represents House Democrats' highest hopes & dreams.

635 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:15:32pm

re: #624 Iron Fist

North Korea is a no-brainer for a lot of different reasons. Number one, for all their avowed military might, they really don't have much. What they do have is artillery, and a lot of it, aimed at South Korea, mostly Seoul. If we fight the war they want to figght, we have massive civillian casualties in the South, and economic devistation. We don't want to fight that war.

You sink the ship to send one type of message, and shoot down the missile to send a second. You use a low-yield weapon to destroy their nuclear plant to send a third message, and it is this third message that stops them from shelling Seoul. Kim Jong Il might very well give the order, but his generals won't pass it to the troops. Not if they know we really will nuke them.

I wholly approve the second message, but would recommend against the third, at least at first. I'd prefer to board the ship and then see what its carrying. If its carrying illegal weapons, we impound it.

636 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:15:45pm

re: #625 Dark_Falcon

Must concur. Though, we might do well delivering a warning to the Norks: Fire a missile towards Hawaii and we shoot it down. Don't threaten to attack their territory, but put them on notice that we won't let scare us. They launch that missile, we knock it down. Would that be appropriate to you?

Sure. Just don't let them include any quails or MIRV clones. Based on past experience, we'd miss the whole kit and kaboodle.

637 pingjockey  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:15:46pm

re: #634 alegrias

Yep. Mwahahaha!

638 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:15:48pm

re: #630 Tarkus289

George W. Bush never ever said Saddam was responsible for 9/11, he went out of his way to say we had no proof, and did not even suggest it. We went to war with Iraq for 24 reasons, number 8 was WMD.

* * * *
Everyone knows it was Pres. Bill Clinton who made REMOVING SADDAM HUSSEIN official US policy.

639 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:15:54pm

re: #623 ShanghaiEd

I'll take your word that this is in their by-laws, Shadow. Independents don't have to embrace anybody. And I like it that way.

In my experience "Independent" is a self applied moniker absolving one of any responsibility. When is the last time you voted for a National candidate that had that awful (R) after his/her name?

640 Opilio  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:16:06pm

re: #630 Tarkus289

George W. Bush never ever said Saddam was responsible for 9/11, he went out of his way to say we had no proof, and did not even suggest it. We went to war with Iraq for 24 reasons, number 8 was WMD.

Don't try to confuse the issue with facts. We live in the age of the meme.

641 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:16:10pm

re: #626 Racer X

Yes.

I see. Looking at wiki and some other sites it looks to be an international movement, not a purely US one, and we're not talking about very many people actually involved.

In any case, these people are clearly not representative of the average antiwar person. I think a case could be made for the human shield people aiding and abetting Saddam.

642 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:16:26pm

re: #629 SasquatchOnSteroids

1 trillion dollar bills laid out end to end is 500 billion feet.

500 billion feet is 94,696,969 miles.

The sun is @ 93,000,000 miles away from earth.

He is taking us into the bowels of hell.

Wow! A trillion dollars really does go a long ways.
I take back any negatives I've said about the cost of Obama's social programs.

643 Bubblehead II  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:16:35pm

Evening all. Just a quick note to let ya all know I am still alive. Lots of stuff happening on this end that has occupied my time and attention and has kept me away. Anything overly drastic that I should be aware of?

644 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:16:46pm

re: #633 schnapp

Thanks for the links.

645 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:16:46pm

re: #621 iceweasel

I don't know what those people objected to, but this is what the average antiwar protester objected to: not removing Saddam, but the reasons we were initially given for his removal: WMD, responsible for 9-11.

Those reasons were false. People were angry. People continue to be angry about the loss of life. And the lack of an exit strategy. And on and on...but we're there now, and we have to deal with that, not refight issues that should have come up more in 2003.

Did people go to Iraq to be human shields?

Yes, they did. The reasons weren't false, they turned out to be incorrect. There is a difference.
Exit strategy? What was our f***ing exit strategy for WWII? Typically, one does not do war planning with an 'exit strategy' Arguably that may change now given that we are fighting a different type of war in a different way.
By the way, if there was an exit strategy in WWII it probably would have been 'we'll kill them until the sonsabitches give up, put down their weapons and bend over'.

646 pingjockey  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:16:49pm

re: #638 alegrias
That little fact seems to slip the msm collective memory.

647 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:17:47pm

re: #628 iceweasel

If the majority of Democrats hate her, how can she be said to be representative (in any but the titular sense) of Democrats?

Good grief, she is Speaker. She sets the agenda. She enforces the block voting that is the hallmark of the Dems in congress for a very long time.

But she doesn't represent you?

648 pingjockey  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:17:56pm

re: #645 Van Helsing
There were WMDs. Ask the Kurds. The WMDS went to Syria.

649 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:17:57pm

re: #638 alegrias

That too!, and trust me very, very few people know that.
but as I look at your post, I think you were being sarcastic.

650 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:18:02pm

re: #642 solomonpanting

Wow! A trillion dollars really does go a long ways.
I take back any negatives I've said about the cost of Obama's social programs.

heh.

651 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:18:28pm

re: #594 Iron Fist

Anti-war was, effectively, during the last war, pro-Saddam Hussein. I asked my question to austin_blue, but I'll ask you as well, what gives? What was so great about Saddam Hussein that you wanted him as the unconditional military dictator of Iraq? Or his certifiably psychotic offspring indulging their various predilections?

Let me give your question a shot. I never questioned that Saddam was an evil dude. Quite frankly, and this is not representitive of liberal thought, merely my own, I believed the Iraqi's required an iron fist in order for them to not kill each other. This, appears to be wrong. But I also was convinced, and believe I was correct, that Sadaam, for his own selfish reasons, was against Al Queda, etc... . I also thought with some justice, that a weak but not too weak Sadaam would keep Iran occcupied. Aside from that, Bush did a poor job selling the war to the public, at least to the roughly 50% of the public who aren't conservative. I think that by linking him to Al Queda and 9-11, the war became politicized. I think if he would have said something like- Iraq is not a threat to the US, but due to 9-11, we want to clean house, create one decent government as an example to the rest, there would have been less people on the left against the war.

652 pingjockey  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:18:40pm

G'night lizards!

653 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:20:44pm

re: #652 pingjockey

G'night lizards!

Goodnight, PJ.

654 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:21:28pm

re: #649 Tarkus289

That too!, and trust me very, very few people know that.
but as I look at your post, I think you were being sarcastic.

* * * *
I believe it was President Bill Clinton who made it official US policy to advocate removal of Saddam Hussein from power.

Not sure what this legislation was called, or plan, but it WAS the usual Democrat tough talk signifying nothing.

Like Pres. Obama's tough talk on Iran, signifying "carry on, terrorists" fear not that we'll actually do something.

655 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:21:31pm

re: #645 Van Helsing

Yes, they did. The reasons weren't false, they turned out to be incorrect. There is a difference.
Exit strategy? What was our f***ing exit strategy for WWII?

We'll have to agree to disagree about 'false', but we can agree that they were certainly incorrect.

It was reasonable for people to be concerned about the lack of an exit strategy, especially given that it was the lack of one that made GHWB end the first Gulf War when he did. It's not like the issue had never come up before.

WWII was different in many ways. For one thing, it wasn't unilateral.

656 Pvt Bin Jammin  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:21:57pm

Just getting to the threads. Good evening, lizards. Good night {pingjockey}.

657 avanti  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:21:58pm

Fox news off the air clips.

658 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:22:18pm

re: #610 Iron Fist

But the anti-war people, a great many of them, did. Not just the screaming nutcases who went to Iraq as human shields, but the avreage protestors. Go look hard at Zombietime, and explain it to me. 'Cause I just don't get it.

I'd love to see a link that shows average protesters were in favor of Saddam controlling Iraq.

Thinking a war was not the way to achieve his downfall does not translate into "support" for a dictator, otherwise that means most Americans "support" the strongmen in Iran and NK today. Right? It's twisting the facts, at best.

I'm still pissed that the GOP leadership, at Karl Rove's urging, referred to anybody not in favor of immediate war as "traitors" to the U.S. That's sick. Things went absolutely crazy, for a few years there. And it'll be years before we recover.

659 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:22:30pm

re: #630 Tarkus289

George W. Bush never ever said Saddam was responsible for 9/11, he went out of his way to say we had no proof, and did not even suggest it. We went to war with Iraq for 24 reasons, number 8 was WMD.

And yet, amazingly enough, in March of 2003, 45% of the American people thought Iraq was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

By September 2003, that number was up to 70%!

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

How did that happen?

660 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:23:17pm

re: #647 The Shadow Do

Good grief, she is Speaker. She sets the agenda. She enforces the block voting that is the hallmark of the Dems in congress for a very long time.

But she doesn't represent you?

Absolutely not, but then, I'm not a Democrat. :)

And a significant number of Democrats must feel she doesn't represent the Party or isn't representing it well, or her polls wouldn't be in the toilet.

661 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:23:40pm

re: #659 austin_blue

Uninformed public, liberal media.

662 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:23:50pm

re: #659 austin_blue

And yet, amazingly enough, in March of 2003, 45% of the American people thought Iraq was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

By September 2003, that number was up to 70%!

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

How did that happen?

A very uninformed public.

663 Bubblehead II  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:24:14pm

re: #652 pingjockey

Night Ping.

664 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:24:18pm

re: #626 Racer X

Yes.

Well, we can't accuse them of not putting their money where their mouth was.

665 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:24:24pm

re: #655 iceweasel


WWII was different in many ways. For one thing, it wasn't unilateral.

If the UN had given its blessings to an Iraqi invasion, would it then have been OK?

666 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:24:44pm

How many people think that Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her house?

667 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:25:38pm

re: #658 ShanghaiEd


I'm still pissed that the GOP leadership, at Karl Rove's urging, referred to anybody not in favor of immediate war as "traitors" to the U.S. That's sick. Things went absolutely crazy, for a few years there. And it'll be years before we recover.

Damn right. And Rove wasn't the only one. "Traitors", "treasonous", "objectively pro-terrorist", "America-hating" -- all those words were flung around at anyone who wouldn't support the rush to war. And they were flung at anyone who dared criticise Bush.

And the Democrats wet their pants and went along with it.

668 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:26:22pm

re: #661 Tarkus289

Uninformed public, liberal media.

But you can't have it both ways. The liberal media wasn't pushing that line. That's a shift of 25% of the population. It doesn't happen by accident.

669 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:27:07pm

Good night, all.

May that lying sack of shit Sanford take his personal drama and get off the stage & screen that rightfully belongs to the innocent Iranian freedom fighters dying for something truly important.

670 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:27:16pm

re: #666 Tarkus289

How many people think that Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her house?

Damian
/

671 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:27:32pm

re: #656 Pvt Bin Jammin

Hi PBJ! How are you tonight?

672 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:27:42pm

re: #361 MandyManners

{{{{{{ Mandy }}}}}}

673 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:27:54pm

When one goes beyond protesting a war to the next level of actively undermining the war effort, then one has indeed become a traitor.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

674 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:28:37pm

re: #668 austin_blue

So you tell me, why did it shift.

675 legalpad  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:28:54pm

re: #666 Tarkus289

How many people think that Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her house?

That was Tina Fey.

676 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:29:08pm

re: #630 Tarkus289

George W. Bush never ever said Saddam was responsible for 9/11, he went out of his way to say we had no proof, and did not even suggest it. We went to war with Iraq for 24 reasons, number 8 was WMD.

Bush was only one of many in the administration making the case for war. What are these 24 reasons? Were they mentioned at the time? By who? Why does "mushroom cloud" seem to have been the turning point in the discussion?

677 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:29:24pm

re: #660 iceweasel

Absolutely not, but then, I'm not a Democrat. :)

And a significant number of Democrats must feel she doesn't represent the Party or isn't representing it well, or her polls wouldn't be in the toilet.

Polls mean doodly. She controls the party. And its agenda. Period.

She most certainly does represent the Party, like it or not.

678 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:29:31pm

re: #666 Tarkus289

How many people think that Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her house?

* * * *
The same number of snarky people that are shocked, shocked that women are getting shot in the heart by totalitarians on the streets of other countries.

679 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:29:36pm

re: #655 iceweasel

We'll have to agree to disagree about 'false', but we can agree that they were certainly incorrect.

It was reasonable for people to be concerned about the lack of an exit strategy, especially given that it was the lack of one that made GHWB end the first Gulf War when he did. It's not like the issue had never come up before.

WWII was different in many ways. For one thing, it wasn't unilateral.

re: #617 Van Helsing

Or his continual flaunting of UN resolutions?
OK, maybe not something that anyone pays attention to but those resolutions came about because of GWI and dammit it was OUR planes he was shooting at!
Just goes to show that UN is nothing more than a sub-par high school debate team.


I'm quoting my own comment because of the UN resolutions.
Gulf War I ended because the mandate was to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait. THAT was the exit strategy at that point. Popular uprisings were also tacitly encouraged and totally unsupported - think Marsh Arabs and Kurds.

Saddam's attacks them was against the terms of the cease fire. Breaking the terms of a cease fire has throughout history been considered sufficient grounds for the renewal of hostilities.

Unilateral? Because the French and Germans didn't want to participate because of getting fat off illegal proceeds from the food for oil program? The one run by the corrupt and nearly useless UN?

OK. Tell that to the parents of dead Brits, Aussies, Bulgars...

680 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:29:51pm

re: #673 The Shadow Do

When one goes beyond protesting a war to the next level of actively undermining the war effort, then one has indeed become a traitor.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

Who "actively undermined" the war effort, and how?

681 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:30:06pm
682 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:30:09pm

re: #675 legalpad

I know that, you know that 200 million Americans do not.

683 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:30:40pm

re: #659 austin_blue

And yet, amazingly enough, in March of 2003, 45% of the American people thought Iraq was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

By September 2003, that number was up to 70%!

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

How did that happen?

Cuz people read the trash in the papers?

684 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:30:40pm

Good evening - or early morning y'all. This has been fun - lurking, I mean!
I'm not used to it (and if you click my avatar and see how many comments I have, you'll know that I'm REALLY NOT used to lurking).
We have a very interesting, intelligent and informed community here - we really do. Equally as important is that at least on this thread, folks have disagreed without being particularly disagreeable to one another.
I heartily recommend lurking once in a while to all y'all!

685 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:30:56pm

re: #667 iceweasel

Damn right. And Rove wasn't the only one. "Traitors", "treasonous", "objectively pro-terrorist", "America-hating" -- all those words were flung around at anyone who wouldn't support the rush to war. And they were flung at anyone who dared criticise Bush.

And the Democrats wet their pants and went along with it.

"He betrayed this country! He played on our fears. He took America on an ill-conceived foreign adventure dangerous to our troops, an adventure preordained and planned before 9/11 ever took place."

686 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:31:19pm

re: #676 ShanghaiEd

Stand by...

687 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:32:02pm

re: #681 Iron Fist

You say it so much more eloquently than I.
Good job.

688 Pvt Bin Jammin  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:32:02pm

re: #671 Floral Giraffe

Hi PBJ! How are you tonight?

I'm good, thanks. Had a busy day and finally getting to kick back.

689 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:32:22pm

re: #681 Iron Fist

Actually, I think Saddam expelled the weapons inspectors as part of an effort to actively try to make us think he had WMD. He was playing chicken, essentially.

690 avanti  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:32:35pm

re: #662 Dark_Falcon

A very uninformed public.

The administration pushed the concept:

link...

691 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:33:08pm
692 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:33:27pm

re: #659 austin_blue

And yet, amazingly enough, in March of 2003, 45% of the American people thought Iraq was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

By September 2003, that number was up to 70%!

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

How did that happen?

Clearly, because the American people were hell-bent on invading Iraq. Don't you remember Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Powell telling us all the downsides and dangers? But would we listen? No! "Cakewalk!" we shouted at them. "Slam dunk!" we shouted at them. But no matter how much they tried to talk us down to reality and reason, we just wouldn't listen. Stupid Americans.
/

693 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:33:39pm

re: #684 realwest

Good evening - or early morning y'all. This has been fun - lurking, I mean!
I'm not used to it (and if you click my avatar and see how many comments I have, you'll know that I'm REALLY NOT used to lurking).
We have a very interesting, intelligent and informed community here - we really do. Equally as important is that at least on this thread, folks have disagreed without being particularly disagreeable to one another.
I heartily recommend lurking once in a while to all y'all!

* * * *
Night, Realwest. You lurking night owl!

694 Scion9  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:33:47pm

re: #441 iceweasel

I take your point. It still seems to me that Paxton makes a good point when he notes that while fascists then would use some socialist rhetoric, and employ some socialist policies, once in power they were more than happy to jettison that.

Perhaps the right conclusion to draw is that these divisions are not entirely useful in discussing current politics, and that-- as you note-- violence was and remains a crucial element in any fascist movement.

I've read Paxton's book. By his definitions, Socialism is strictly a big "S" phenomena, and extends from an extremely specific philosophical groundwork.

By his definition, Bernie Sanders is not a Socialist, nor are Social Democrats or any other self-described Socialist party of Europe because they don't have the literal, exact same moral baggage. I don't think he does it deliberately, but his entire thrust in defining "Socialism" is a complete exercise in 'No True Scotsman' levels of hairsplitting.

You can use the same kind of definitions of a "Capitalist", and state that anyone who doesn't agree with the specifically moralistic philosophies surrounding free markets (such as Objectivism) then one is not really a capitalist.

To Paxton, if you don't want socialism as some kind of egalitarian principle, then you are no true socialist. Neiwart, spectacularly takes it further in stating that the Nazis were capitalists ("Objectively Capitalist" sound familiar? I guess that is where he is going with that.)

The Nazis were populists, and socialist policies were popular with large segments of German, and European society from the uppercrusts to the lumpenproles. It was a useful political tool, and wasn't their overarching goal, but one plank in their platform.

Regardless, once in power the Nazis, contrary to Paxton's assertions, took command of the economy and even more damning they took greater control of the economy than they had campaigned on to get their seats in Parliament. They ran to the right in rhetoric before the passing of the Enabling Act because that is where the populist political winds were blowing them, but once they were no longer beholden to the people they took control of the economy like they said they were going to do in the mid '20s despite having recanted that position.

The Nazis were obviously not egalitarian, but they viewed a command economy as intrinsic to their governing philosophy and important towards constructing an empire. By any non-hairsplitting definition they were socialists. Calling them not so, or outright calling them capitalists is as bad as calling them 'liberals' or left-wingers in its revisionism.

As far as 'not touching' native German businesses, you might want to look into the overarching National Socialist political formula. They weren't into 'not touching' anything. All commerce, on both the supply and demand side, would be controlled by Nazis because there wouldn't be any non-Nazis left to produce or consume given time.

Regardless of fisking the term 'socialism', the economic policies of the Nazis isn't what made them 'right-wing' and if they had been completely economically liberal (as in free market liberalism) that wouldn't have made them a left-wing party. Their stance on commerce isn't relevant to their classification on the spectrum given their central 'Master Race' doctrine of a global Aryan aristocracy by virtue of birthright that defined them above and beyond anything else they stood for.

695 dkorta  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:34:10pm

re: #621 iceweasel

... People were angry. People continue to be angry about the loss of life. And the lack of an exit strategy.

"Exit strategy"?

What's our exit strategy for Japan? We've been there since 1945.
What's our exit strategy for Germany? Ditto.
What's our exit strategy for Korea? We've been there since the early 50's.
What's our exit strategy for Kosovo? Clinton said we'd only be there a few months. I believe he may have misspoke.

Now all of a sudden lacking an exit strategy is cause for anger?

696 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:35:03pm

re: #689 iceweasel

Actually, I think Saddam expelled the weapons inspectors as part of an effort to actively try to make us think he had WMD. He was playing chicken, essentially.

And he lost.

697 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:35:10pm

Obama Open to New Tax on Health Care Benefits

"I don't want to prejudge what they're doing," the president said, referring to proposals in the Senate to tax workers who get expensive insurance policies. Obama, who campaigned against the tax when he ran for president, drew a quick rebuff from organized labor.

Obamaoscopy

698 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:35:10pm

re: #674 Tarkus289

So you tell me, why did it shift.

The uninformed generally say "I don't know". The folks who express an opinion have been informed, at some level, by some media outlet or word of mouth.

699 Opilio  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:35:24pm

re: #689 iceweasel

Actually, I think Saddam expelled the weapons inspectors as part of an effort to actively try to make us think he had WMD. He was playing chicken, essentially.

He lost.

700 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:36:00pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

It was indeed. They also had the IL-2 Shturmovik, which had a pair of most excellent 20-mm cannons. A very good plane when used correctly. Glad to see someone who knows about WWII details. This is one of only three places I can talk about WWII without spending the whole time teaching others about the war. Most people know so little about it that you cannot actually discuss the battles, all you can do is teach. I do the teaching willingly, but I like having the discussions even more.

I don't know how old you are, but I was a kid in the mid-late 70's - probably the last generation of kids to play "guns" in the back yard, also army men, etc... None of that today, probably explains lack of interest by kids who would be inclined to be into WWII.

701 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:36:07pm

Astonishing. Democract, privy to all the same intelligence the Executive had, voted overwhelmingly to attack Iraq. But no one remembers that.

Golly, why is that?

702 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:36:53pm

re: #685 The Shadow Do

"He betrayed this country! He played on our fears. He took America on an ill-conceived foreign adventure dangerous to our troops, an adventure preordained and planned before 9/11 ever took place."

Well, that's not what I said, nor is it something I would say.

It's undeniable that Rove and others accused all war critics and eventually all Bush critics of being unamerican, treasonous, traitors, etc.

And that kind of shit has no place in our public discourse, whether it's Republicans throwing it at Dems or the other way around. None.

We all love our country; that's why these debates get passionate.

703 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:37:02pm

re: #680 iceweasel

Who "actively undermined" the war effort, and how?

You're kidding, right?
The speeches on the floor of the House and the Senate? Harry Reid saying the war was lost? The continual rants from people that voted for armed response and then said they had been bamboozled, hoodwinked, fooled? Fooled by the administration that many of their supporters said was ignorant and idiotic? What did that make them if such were the case?

The facts, however, are that they saw the same reports and came to the same conclusions and authorized military force.
To say that they had been misled or lied to is disingenuous at best - more likely just self-serving bullshit.

704 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:37:22pm

re: #695 dkorta

"Exit strategy"?

What's our exit strategy for Japan? We've been there since 1945.
What's our exit strategy for Germany? Ditto.
What's our exit strategy for Korea? We've been there since the early 50's.
What's our exit strategy for Kosovo? Clinton said we'd only be there a few months. I believe he may have misspoke.

Now all of a sudden lacking an exit strategy is cause for anger?

* * * *
Exit Strategy is only necessary for some wars.

You're right, Bill Clinton's ONE YEAR only war, went on for over 10 years with no "exit strategy" in sight.

705 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:37:27pm

I have a question for folks of either the Democratic, Liberal or Leftist frame of mind here tonight.
We all know that California is BROKE as in outta money, right?
We also have at least read or heard that a good part of the reason California is BROKE is because none of the politicians there have talked about cutting government spending, only increasing government revenue, which, for some odd reason, doesn't seem to sit well with the providers of that increased government revenue, i.e., the taxpayers of California.
Yet Nancy Pelosi and Henry Waxman are very VERY important Dems in Congress; indeed, Pelosi is the Speaker of the House of Representatives. And of course Diane Feinstein and Barbara Boxer are the two Senators from California and each holds chairmanships or other important positions in the US Senate.
So when California went to President Obama asking for a little less money than President Obama has given to the UAW, why did he turn them down?
And do any of you think this could impact any of Pelosi, Waxman, Feinstein or Boxer's chances of re-election?

706 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:37:55pm
707 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:38:14pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does Barney have a speech impediment? (other than the everything that comes out of his mouth is total horseshit)... But, does he have a physical problem?

To my ear, he sounds like someone who was born with a cleft lip/palate that was surgically corrected.

708 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:38:18pm

re: #703 Van Helsing

You're kidding, right?
The speeches on the floor of the House and the Senate? Harry Reid saying the war was lost? The continual rants from people that voted for armed response and then said they had been bamboozled, hoodwinked, fooled? Fooled by the administration that many of their supporters said was ignorant and idiotic? What did that make them if such were the case?

The facts, however, are that they saw the same reports and came to the same conclusions and authorized military force.
To say that they had been misled or lied to is disingenuous at best - more likely just self-serving bullshit.

Sorry. That's not treason.

709 NY Nana  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:38:24pm

re: #675 legalpad

For you! ;)

710 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:38:54pm

re: #702 iceweasel

Well, that's not what I said, nor is it something I would say.

It's undeniable that Rove and others accused all war critics and eventually all Bush critics of being unamerican, treasonous, traitors, etc.

And that kind of shit has no place in our public discourse, whether it's Republicans throwing it at Dems or the other way around. None.

We all love our country; that's why these debates get passionate.

I think you need to trot out the evidence against Rove.

711 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:39:04pm

re: #684 realwest

Good evening - or early morning y'all. This has been fun - lurking, I mean!
I'm not used to it (and if you click my avatar and see how many comments I have, you'll know that I'm REALLY NOT used to lurking).
We have a very interesting, intelligent and informed community here - we really do. Equally as important is that at least on this thread, folks have disagreed without being particularly disagreeable to one another.
I heartily recommend lurking once in a while to all y'all!

Hey RW.

Lurking is good, but if you lurk to long you could get arrested for peeping.

712 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:39:26pm

re: #706 Iron Fist

I'm especially impressed by the way Bush and the Republicans steamrollered right over Dick Durbin (D-al Qaeda). You do remember him? Osama's very own Toyko Rose on the floor of the Senate?

Traitor, indeed, even if he was never charged. Where were the Democrat condemnations of him? Hell, the Republicans barely raised their voices about him.

The Dems also fucked up and fucked us over in the rollup to war. Believe me, I have my issues with them as well.

713 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:40:51pm

re: #693 alegrias
Well morning here, alegrias!

714 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:41:01pm

re: #701 The Shadow Do

Astonishing. Democract, privy to all the same intelligence the Executive had, voted overwhelmingly to attack Iraq. But no one remembers that.

Golly, why is that?

Actually, they didn't. What the Congress voted on was to authorize military action *if* it could be proven that Iraq posed a clear and present danger to the region and US interests. It was only after that resolution was passed that the Bush Admin put the machine into high gear.

715 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:41:23pm

re: #681 Iron Fist

Iron Fist: I turn 59 years old this fall, and the "real history" you describe is not the one I experienced. Just my two cents. But in my case, growing older has still not made what we did in Iraq look like a good or wise idea.

716 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:42:26pm

re: #705 realwest

I have a question for folks of either the Democratic, Liberal or Leftist frame of mind here tonight.
We all know that California is BROKE as in outta money, right?
We also have at least read or heard that a good part of the reason California is BROKE is because none of the politicians there have talked about cutting government spending, only increasing government revenue, which, for some odd reason, doesn't seem to sit well with the providers of that increased government revenue, i.e., the taxpayers of California.
Yet Nancy Pelosi and Henry Waxman are very VERY important Dems in Congress; indeed, Pelosi is the Speaker of the House of Representatives. And of course Diane Feinstein and Barbara Boxer are the two Senators from California and each holds chairmanships or other important positions in the US Senate.
So when California went to President Obama asking for a little less money than President Obama has given to the UAW, why did he turn them down?
And do any of you think this could impact any of Pelosi, Waxman, Feinstein or Boxer's chances of re-election?

* * * *
Dear Realwest, take this with a grain of salt, but I think I heard somewhere that Andy Stern the president of Service Employees International Union (SEIU) may have called the White House and nixed California's money request because his union wanted more of something. Stern is apparently that important & connected a community organizer.

But I could be wrong!

717 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:43:01pm

re: #699 Opilio

He lost.

We all lost, a lot.

718 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:43:51pm

re: #708 iceweasel

Sorry. That's not treason.

I would not agree - Aid and comfort.

If I were the enemy I would take great comfort in knowing that the people responsible for funding the Army fighting me were giving serious thought to NOT F***ING DOING SO! I would take great comfort and be aided in recruiting by those persons preaching the horrors of Abu Ghraib and keeping it front and center in the news for MONTHS!

I would also be aided by news organizations such as the NYT publishing illustrations of the weak points in my enemy's personal and vehicular armor.

But that's just me.

719 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:43:57pm

re: #705 realwest

And do any of you think this could impact any of Pelosi, Waxman, Feinstein or Boxer's chances of re-election?

Unfortunately, no. California's voters are going to ride with those giants in the same manner that Slim Pickens rode the bomb to its final destination.

720 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:44:04pm

re: #694 Scion9


Regardless of fisking the term 'socialism', the economic policies of the Nazis isn't what made them 'right-wing' and if they had been completely economically liberal (as in free market liberalism) that wouldn't have made them a left-wing party. Their stance on commerce isn't relevant to their classification on the spectrum given their central 'Master Race' doctrine of a global Aryan aristocracy by virtue of birthright that defined them above and beyond anything else they stood for.

Agree with you in re: the economic policies; it's the focus on the master race ideology and the appeals to nationalism that make them fascistic.

721 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:44:08pm

re: #712 iceweasel

Are you anti-war as a matter of general principal (few are), or just what is it that dings your dingy as it were?

722 dkorta  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:44:30pm

re: #704 alegrias

* * * *
Exit Strategy is only necessary for some wars.

You're right, Bill Clinton's ONE YEAR only war, went on for over 10 years with no "exit strategy" in sight.

So the question remains: Why is an Exit Strategy considered necessary for this war?

723 alegrias  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:44:37pm

Goodnight all again.

724 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:45:19pm

re: #676 ShanghaiEd

Resolution

725 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:45:34pm

re: #714 austin_blue

Actually, they didn't. What the Congress voted on was to authorize military action *if* it could be proven that Iraq posed a clear and present danger to the region and US interests. It was only after that resolution was passed that the Bush Admin put the machine into high gear.

Ridiculous spin and everyone knows it. Congress knew damn well what they were voting for. Plausible deniability my butt.

726 Opilio  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:45:37pm

re: #705 realwest

And do any of you think this could impact any of Pelosi, Waxman, Feinstein or Boxer's chances of re-election?

Pelosi has won her last 9 elections with 82%, 82%, 84%, 86%, 85%, 80%, 83%, 80%, and 72% of the vote. She's not going anywhere.

727 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:46:05pm
728 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:46:12pm

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.

729 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:47:09pm

Please tell me we aren't re-fighting the Iraq war...anyway, for all you 80's nostalgia junkies, Hill Street Blues is archived on Hulu: [Link: www.hulu.com...]

730 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:47:41pm

Too bad I missed out on the Lounge Private thread. I have some more kook news from Ron Paulestine, but it's not something I want the entire unregistered world reading. It's funny when the Paulian "partial kooks" start worrying about the kookiness of the Paulian "full blown kooks" though.

731 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:47:56pm
732 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:48:22pm

re: #711 jorline

Hey RW.

Lurking is good, but if you lurk to long you could get arrested for peeping.


Hey jorline, boy tell me about it! I mean I told that police officer that uh, hmmm, well nevermind! But I was sorta serious - lurking once in a while gives you a more Over-All view of LGF Thread comments and a feel for how we do in fact debate sometimes very passionately debate, all sorts of things, especially passionate things, but you'll see that folks are in fact DEBATING - trying to change someone else's mind about something. That's hard to see or appreciate when you're in the "heat of battle" so to speak!
I think it speaks VOLUMES about how cool Charles is that he enables us to go on like this with only an infrequent deletion or even more infrequent banning.

733 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:48:35pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Libertarians are conservatives who smoke pot.

I had no idea that I am a libertarian. Wait, but I don't smoke pot anymore. What the hell am I?

Uh! This is more confusing than puberty.
///

734 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:49:16pm

re: #728 Flyers1974

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.

To begin, I'll guess that the media and colleges were not as left as they have been for the past few decades.

735 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:49:25pm

re: #728 Flyers1974

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.

Patriotism was alive and well in that era. Things changed.

736 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:49:46pm

re: #705 realwest

Realwest, I'm not a liberal, but I do live in Kalifornia. And there are a LOT of people in this state, and elsewhere, who can't WAIT for the FREE things the liberal democrats are going to give them. So Pelosi, Waxman, Feinstein and Boxer are shoe ins for re-election. Until they get the bill, that is, but that's a few years down the road.

737 avanti  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:50:36pm

re: #729 MrPaulRevere

Please tell me we aren't re-fighting the Iraq war..

I'm not in the mood to do that for sure.

738 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:51:18pm
739 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:51:27pm

re: #722 dkorta

So the question remains: Why is an Exit Strategy considered necessary for this war?

In the years after Vietnam, I've heard military leaders and Republican and Democrat leaders use the term "exit strategy." That is why it is considered necessary. Whether it is in fact necessary is a different issue.

740 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:51:39pm

re: #730 ArchangelMichael

E-mail Charles, it might be thread worthy, you never know.

741 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:51:57pm

re: #703 Van Helsing

You're kidding, right?
The speeches on the floor of the House and the Senate? Harry Reid saying the war was lost? The continual rants from people that voted for armed response and then said they had been bamboozled, hoodwinked, fooled? Fooled by the administration that many of their supporters said was ignorant and idiotic? What did that make them if such were the case?

The facts, however, are that they saw the same reports and came to the same conclusions and authorized military force.
To say that they had been misled or lied to is disingenuous at best - more likely just self-serving bullshit.

Being opposed, in principle, to starting a war is not "undermining the war effort" by the remotest stretch of the imagination. That it could even be considered so shows how far the idea of representative democracy went off the rails for a few years.

What about all the Republican lawmakers in our history who opposed a Democratic administration's war plans? Were they traitors? Were they shunned? Or were they principled?

742 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:52:11pm

re: #734 solomonpanting

To begin, I'll guess that the media and colleges were not as left as they have been for the past few decades.

That is a very good start. I had a wonderful old man in college who taught Shakespeare. He rode against Poncho Villa and damned proud of it. We called him Hotspur!

Won't find cats like that in college any more.

743 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:52:13pm

re: #705 realwest

So when California went to President Obama asking for a little less money than President Obama has given to the UAW, why did he turn them down?
And do any of you think this could impact any of Pelosi, Waxman, Feinstein or Boxer's chances of re-election?

Sacramento and the Bay Area are as close to a real life Twilight Zone as you can get. Pelosi could come out as a vampire and eat a infant on live television and she would still get 70+ percent of the vote in her district in 2010.

744 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:52:26pm

re: #716 alegrias

* * * *
Dear Realwest, take this with a grain of salt, but I think I heard somewhere that Andy Stern the president of Service Employees International Union (SEIU) may have called the White House and nixed California's money request because his union wanted more of something. Stern is apparently that important & connected a community organizer.

But I could be wrong!


Well you're right a helluva lot more often than you're wrong, but I don't understand what you are saying. If Stern is president of the SEIU, why would he NOT want Obama to bail out California? It would protect his union members from being cut from their jobs when the inevitable happens and California goes bust and HAS TO CUT GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS.

745 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:52:36pm

re: #719 solomonpanting

Unfortunately, no. SOME of California's voters are going to ride with those giants in the same manner that Slim Pickens rode the bomb to its final destination.

FTFY.

746 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:52:44pm
747 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:53:11pm

Exit Strategy. Kick ass. Go home.

748 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:53:15pm

re: #725 The Shadow Do

Ridiculous spin and everyone knows it. Congress knew damn well what they were voting for. Plausible deniability my butt.

We'll just have to disagree, here. The Resolution was before Powell went to the UN. Before the 2003 State of the Union where the BS uranium claim was made. Before Cheney said "They have WMDs and we know where they are." The case for the invasion of Iraq was made *after* passage. I will agree that passage gave the Admin a green light their specious case, though. The Dems should have screamed bloody murder before the invasion and they didn't. A lot of blood on a lot of hands.

749 jorline  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:53:48pm

Ambian induced sleep coming on...good night lizards.

750 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:53:55pm

re: #746 Iron Fist

Patton would have said "Victory is an exit strategy" had anyone asked him about it.

No doubt about that.

751 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:54:18pm

re: #740 MrPaulRevere

E-mail Charles, it might be thread worthy, you never know.

Well its just kooks handwringing about how we are all doomed!1!1! Nothing news worthy yet. There might be something coming down the road for the July 4th Tea Parties though.

752 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:55:23pm

re: #728 Flyers1974

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.

Well... um.

753 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:55:25pm

re: #743 ArchangelMichael

VERY well said! Upding!

754 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:55:50pm

re: #731 Iron Fist

Vast changes in American culture. Where those changes came from is the real question.

That would be the from the weather underground types and such that went into academia.

755 avanti  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:56:15pm

re: #728 Flyers1974

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.


It was the last big really "good war", we were attacked and defended ourselves, nothing to protest. Gulf 1 and Afghanistan were not unpopular either.

756 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:56:49pm

re: #751 ArchangelMichael

Internecine battles in the kook fringe are always intense, because the stakes are so small. But I love to read about them /

757 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:57:19pm

re: #738 Iron Fist

Radio was new, tevelision a thing of the future. Before Walter Cronkite newsmen were more honest. Well, they had less impact, anyway.

Television was new, but radio had been a fixture for years. I imagine that radio and newspapers were quite influential, and absent the omnipresent media of today, were not as susceptible to second-guessing as journalism is today.

758 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:57:20pm

re: #719 solomonpanting

Unfortunately, no. California's voters are going to ride with those giants in the same manner that Slim Pickens rode the bomb to its final destination.


Hey there my friend - shit, I'm really sorry to hear that. Cause I have this DEEP suspicion that if a few high profile politicians (which these days means mostly Democrats) were to lose re-election attempts, politicians of all political stripes would SURE AS HELL sit up and pay attention to what the voters have said. CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING. GET THE GOVERNMENT more OUT of our lives than IN.
Personally, I think for example, if we made all members of Congress pay for their INCREDIBLY GREAT health care (including dental) through terms in office and during retirement, for example, maybe they'd start - R's and D's to truly understand Healthcare, up close and personal.

759 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:57:25pm

re: #748 austin_blue

We'll just have to disagree, here. The Resolution was before Powell went to the UN. Before the 2003 State of the Union where the BS uranium claim was made. Before Cheney said "They have WMDs and we know where they are." The case for the invasion of Iraq was made *after* passage. I will agree that passage gave the Admin a green light their specious case, though. The Dems should have screamed bloody murder before the invasion and they didn't. A lot of blood on a lot of hands.

Here is where we truly disagree. Busting Sadam and liberating Iraq is a good thing. So go ahead and disagree, that's fine.

760 Tarkus289  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:57:54pm

Early day tomorrow, need sleep, I enjoyed the debate, hope I did not come off as angry.

Good night.

We win, they lose. The only exit strategy.

761 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:58:08pm

re: #723 alegrias
Goodnight alegrias - sleep well!

762 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:59:00pm

re: #743 ArchangelMichael

Pelosi could come out as a vampire and eat a infant on live television and she would still get 70+ percent of the vote in her district in 2010.

Oh no she wouldn't. Her vampire constituents would be super pissed that she's getting special "baby food" privileges that they are legally denied.
//

763 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:59:23pm

re: #721 The Shadow Do

Are you anti-war as a matter of general principal (few are), or just what is it that dings your dingy as it were?

It's a good question.
I haven't made a thorough enough study of it yet to know my precise philosophical position. I do have problems with the doctrine of preemptive war, and I'm not entirely on board with the various versions of "just war" that I've seen.

I have my issues with the Iraq War in particular but I'm not interested in refighting that. As I said far upthread-- what's the point, we're there now and that's what we have to work with.

I don't think I would consider myself anti- all war, by any means. It
seems to me that there are some wars which nations must engage in. Self-defense is one such reason.

The Quakers are opposed to all war.
[Link: www.quakerinfo.com...]

764 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:59:43pm

re: #726 Opilio
Sigh. I was afraid of that. She represents an entirely moonbat district, I take it?

765 dkorta  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 9:59:57pm

re: #747 The Shadow Do

Exit Strategy. Kick ass. Go home.

We kicked ass in Japan. We didn't go home.
We kicked ass in Germany. We didn't go home.

We kicked ass in Gulf War 1. We went home. How did that turn out?

766 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:00:18pm

re: #748 austin_blue

The Dems should have screamed bloody murder before the invasion and they didn't. A lot of blood on a lot of hands.

Yep. As I said-- the Dems have a lot to answer for as well.

767 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:01:26pm

re: #728 Flyers1974

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.

In WW2 and Korea we didn't have millions of disillusioned deconstructionalist marxists entrenched in academia and the media.

768 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:02:28pm

re: #741 ShanghaiEd

Being opposed, in principle, to starting a war is not "undermining the war effort" by the remotest stretch of the imagination. That it could even be considered so shows how far the idea of representative democracy went off the rails for a few years.

What about all the Republican lawmakers in our history who opposed a Democratic administration's war plans? Were they traitors? Were they shunned? Or were they principled?

I was referring to events occurring well after the war was started and the Saddam regime toppled.

In my memory the only Republican activity is Nixon drawing down troops in Vietnam and not codifying our continued support to South Vietnam in the Paris accords.

Please provide examples of speeches in Congress of Republican activities that are analogous to Harry Reid's statements.

769 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:02:37pm

re: #728 Flyers1974

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.

People are stupider now.

770 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:03:03pm

re: #767 ArchangelMichael

We did have protesters though. Maybe not on the scale we see today, but we had them. Just sayin'.

771 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:03:12pm

re: #728 Flyers1974

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.


Well Korea was a UN POLICE ACTION, not a War. That's why there were no protestors and also why the Korean War veterans had to wait longer than did the Vietnam Vets did to finally get a Memorial to their true bravery and sacrifice. After we showed how a LARGE group of Veterans could raise money themselves, such that if the Government (thank you again RWR) would give the land, we could build it essentially by ourselves - the Korean Vets took one look and said "HEY, we can do that too!" And so they did.

772 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:03:47pm

re: #752 Slumbering Behemoth

Well... um.

Nice one. I'm definitely aware of the anti-war setiment before Pearl Harbor - I don't think we would have got involved but for Pearl Harbor. I was mainly talking about after the decision was made.

773 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:04:01pm

re: #763 iceweasel

Preemptive war and self defense are often the same thing. Look to Israel for example. They would not exist today without preemption.

774 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:04:03pm

re: #764 realwest

Sigh. I was afraid of that. She represents an entirely moonbat district, I take it?

Take a look at the map, I think it speaks for itself, though I wasn't aware that the Uber-rich limousine liberal part of SF was not in her district.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

775 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:04:21pm

re: #124 MJ

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

Yes, I have often thought of taking up arms about people not speaking English at the mall.

///

776 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:04:57pm

re: #744 realwest

Well you're right a helluva lot more often than you're wrong, but I don't understand what you are saying. If Stern is president of the SEIU, why would he NOT want Obama to bail out California? It would protect his union members from being cut from their jobs when the inevitable happens and California goes bust and HAS TO CUT GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS.

There were concessions asked of the union that would have been seen as a weakening of their stranglehold influence in California government employment.

777 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:05:00pm

re: #770 Slumbering Behemoth

The communist party in America (which was quite large because of the Great Depression) was opposed to the war with Germany because Germany and Russia were initially allies.

778 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:05:43pm

re: #767 ArchangelMichael

In WW2 and Korea we didn't have millions of disillusioned deconstructionalist marxists entrenched in academia and the media.

I'd say there were far more Communists etc... at the time of WWII than today. As a percentage of the US population I mean.

779 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:06:05pm

re: #765 dkorta

We kicked ass in Japan. We didn't go home.
We kicked ass in Germany. We didn't go home.

We kicked ass in Gulf War 1. We went home. How did that turn out?

Point taken. Kick ass. Rebuild. Go home...some day. OK with me.

780 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:07:07pm

re: #736 Floral Giraffe

Realwest, I'm not a liberal, but I do live in Kalifornia. And there are a LOT of people in this state, and elsewhere, who can't WAIT for the FREE things the liberal democrats are going to give them. So Pelosi, Waxman, Feinstein and Boxer are shoe ins for re-election. Until they get the bill, that is, but that's a few years down the road.


What? What "FREE" things are they gonna get, other than perhaps free Bankruptcy counsel! Seriously, California could file for Bankruptcy or be DRAGGED into Bankruptcy by sufficient unpaid creditors. Take a look at what Kucinich did as Mayor of Cleveland if you don't believe me!

781 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:07:11pm

re: #718 Van Helsing

I would not agree - Aid and comfort.

If I were the enemy I would take great comfort in knowing that the people responsible for funding the Army fighting me were giving serious thought to NOT F***ING DOING SO! I would take great comfort and be aided in recruiting by those persons preaching the horrors of Abu Ghraib and keeping it front and center in the news for MONTHS!

I would also be aided by news organizations such as the NYT publishing illustrations of the weak points in my enemy's personal and vehicular armor.

But that's just me.

In other words, to destroy the enemy we have to become like them: quash dissent and when someone objects, tell everyone to shut up and clap louder. /

I think that Iraqis were paying more attention to our operations over there than they were to the speeches on the floor of the House and Senate, and I don't think raising criticisms is impeding the war effort.

782 Opilio  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:07:35pm

re: #764 realwest

Sigh. I was afraid of that. She represents an entirely moonbat district, I take it?

Well, one measure of the moonbattery of California's 8th District is that Pelosi's worst showing (72% in 2008) occurred when Cindy Sheehan ran against her. The mind boggles.

783 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:07:54pm

re: #765 dkorta

We kicked ass in Japan. We didn't go home.
We kicked ass in Germany. We didn't go home.

We kicked ass in Gulf War 1. We went home. How did that turn out?

G1 - we went home because Bush Sr was slipping in the polls and the dems wanted all troops out. He placated the left as much as Jr did. Did not work.

784 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:08:45pm

re: #778 Flyers1974

I'd say there were far more Communists etc... at the time of WWII than today. As a percentage of the US population I mean.

Most definitely.

785 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:08:51pm

re: #772 Flyers1974

Good point. Most of that seems to be prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. I'll see if I can dig anything else up. Likely, not much.

786 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:09:06pm

re: #170 Iron Fist

The Left gave usd Stalin. Are you really stupid enough to argue that Stalin wasn't Left Wing? What about Lenin, or the Left's favorite mass murderer Che? Denying history won't make it go away.

"Liberal" and the Communist left-wing political cluster are two different animals. Same way "Conservative" and theocratic monarchies are. There is no general left-wing ideology that includes liberalism.

787 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:09:17pm

One misconception I keep seeing is when people presume that anti-war protesters are Democrats. At the Iraq rallies I attended, I only heard the word "Democrats" when it was preceded by the adjective "f***ing." There was much anger, that millions of people had protested in the streets and the Democrats completely ignored them.

Of the dozen or so people I know who identified as Democrats before the invasion of Iraq, all but one now tell me they're Independents.

PS: The corollary to this is why I don't have the highest of hopes for Tea Parties changing anything, either.

788 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:10:48pm

re: #786 SanFranciscoZionist

Liberal means smaller government and more individual freedoms in some countries outside the US.

789 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:11:17pm

re: #780 realwest

I know that & you know that, but the majority of the state doesn't understand that there are consequences. Heck, the Controller is talking about having to start issuing vouchers in a week. SIGH. We're gonna crash & the fallout isn't going to be pretty.

790 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:11:22pm

re: #780 realwest

What? What "FREE" things are they gonna get, other than perhaps free Bankruptcy counsel! Seriously, California could file for Bankruptcy or be DRAGGED into Bankruptcy by sufficient unpaid creditors. Take a look at what Kucinich did as Mayor of Cleveland if you don't believe me!

I'm in Maryland not California, but here at least, I don't know anyone who is expecting anything free. I'm thinking the percentage of those who believe so have to be a very small minority.

791 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:12:10pm
778 Flyers1974


re: #767 ArchangelMichael

In WW2 and Korea we didn't have millions of disillusioned deconstructionalist marxists entrenched in academia and the media.

I'd say there were far more Communists etc... at the time of WWII than today. As a percentage of the US population I mean.

But they didn't occupy those institutions mentioned by ArchangelMichael. Moreover, I believe they felt cowed at the thought of carrying out the demonstrations we are used to nowadays.

792 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:12:35pm

re: #741 ShanghaiEd
"What about all the Republican lawmakers in our history who opposed a Democratic administration's war plans? Were they traitors? Were they shunned? Or were they principled?"
Who would they be SE? I mean, aftet the shooting started.
I know there were lots of folks against WWI and lots of folks against WWII but after the Lusitania was sunk and Pearl Harbor attacked, I can't think of any.
And Korea - same thing - started with Truman finished by Ike. Vietnam is trickier cause it lasted longer than any other war in our history but the only major forces of dissent while US Soldiers were being shot and killed were Democrats. So who is it you're talking about?

793 itellu3times  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:13:02pm

re: #625 Dark_Falcon

Must concur. Though, we might do well delivering a warning to the Norks: Fire a missile towards Hawaii and we shoot it down. Don't threaten to attack their territory, but put them on notice that we won't let scare us. They launch that missile, we knock it down. Would that be appropriate to you?

No. Disagree.

It is ten times as difficult, risky, and expensive to shoot down a missile than it is to launch it. If they launch ten, we'll miss one, or two.

Should we get in the situation like Israel, putting up with potshots by lunatics? Fortunately, Norks can't afford more than a couple of shots.

They launch one and it takes a ballistic course that will hit the US, we should launch a much larger (and more effective) attack on their military infrastructure. Yes, Seoul is their "hostage". Don't care. Seoul, prepare, or find some way to tell Norks to cool it.

794 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:13:36pm

re: #759 The Shadow Do

Here is where we truly disagree. Busting Sadam and liberating Iraq is a good thing. So go ahead and disagree, that's fine.

But isn't there a little part of you that thinks "What if we had put those assets into Afghanistan and killed that fucker OBL?"

795 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:13:51pm

re: #773 The Shadow Do

Preemptive war and self defense are often the same thing. Look to Israel for example. They would not exist today without preemption.

You're right; I misspoke/misstyped. I meant to refer to preventive war, (bush doctrine et al) not preemptive.

Preventive war, like preemptive war, uses selfdefense as a justification but is more purely speculative; preemptive war is about committing the first strike when an attack is imminent.

Preemptive war seems justifiable if one accepts that self-defense is a legitimate reason for war; preventive war less so.

796 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:14:13pm

re: #792 realwest

I probably misunderstood you, but was LBJ not a Democrat?

797 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:14:17pm

re: #188 ShanghaiEd

Here's what puzzles me. Of the 11 extremist cases outlined on this thread (3 in the main article, 8 in iceweasel's list) only one of them...the murder of Dr. Tiller...took place in the "heartland." The others are East Coast, New Jersey, and Seattle.

The stereotype of militias, that I've seen, is that their main territory is the sparse countryside of the West and Midwest. Why are nearly all these latest examples in Blue, or Blue-ish states? Anybody have a theory, or is it coincidence?

Actually, my stereotype of militias is that they're Northwestern--Idaho, Montana, Wyoming. Open country, not too much surveillance.

Seattle is close enough to that area that people who like the idea, but can't actually hack living in the high country gravitate there.

As for the coastal sprawl--I suspect most of these folks are not 'militia' types, but semi-loners who like their guns and their money, and come on the radar making sales and acting out. If you really want to get away from government, you just get, and if you don't try to blow something up, no one comes looking for you.

798 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:14:52pm

re: #778 Flyers1974

I'd say there were far more Communists etc... at the time of WWII than today. As a percentage of the US population I mean.

I'm sure there were because of the progressive movement and the Great Depression, but they weren't overtly pervasive in academia, the news media, and popular culture at the time. There were not dozens of movies and hundred of books about how FDR was no better than Hitler.

799 avanti  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:14:54pm

re: #785 Slumbering Behemoth

Good point. Most of that seems to be prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. I'll see if I can dig anything else up. Likely, not much.

There were some actions during the war that smacked of treason. The transit workers strike rather then allow black workers comes to mind. It hurt the war effort and probably costs American lives.
A strike at home

By midsummer 1944, Rome had been captured. Since the D-Day invasion of Normandy on June 6, almost one million men had landed in France. U.S. forces were advancing in the Pacific.

More than ever, industry needed to work at top speed.
Then came Philadelphia's great embarrassment of the war, a stain still remembered in the history of civil rights. On Aug. 1, the city's all-white transit operators walked off the job to protest the hiring of eight black men as trolley drivers.

Within hours, plants and shipyards felt the impact of absent workers.

There was fear of violence. At 3 p.m., Samuel ordered bars closed. The Phillies game was canceled, "to avoid the dangers incident to the assembly of any large crowd," as The Inquirer reported it.

Maj. Gen. Philip Hayes of the Army's Third Service Command appealed to the strikers to go back to work.

"Production of radar equipment, heavy artillery, heavy trucks, incendiary bombs, flamethrowers, and many other critical items needed by our fighting men is being held up because of the inability of Philadelphia war workers to get to their factories and workbenches," he said in a statement published in the papers.

But the strikers wouldn't budge. The Inquirer excoriated their action, not so much for its racism as for its lack of patriotism.

On the third night of the walkout, President Franklin D. Roosevelt ordered the Army to take control of the Philadelphia Transportation Co.'s 1,932 streetcars, 564 buses, and 59 trackless trolleys, plus the Broad Street Subway and Market-Frankford El.

Five thousand troops on their way to France were rerouted to Philadelphia. Three thousand others from Camp Pickett, Va., were called in.

Fifty years later, in 1994, William Barber of Southwest Philadelphia, one of the eight black drivers, could still remember his astonishment at what had happened.

The transit workers had been striking, Barber recalled, "because of me."

800 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:14:55pm

re: #794 austin_blue

OY!

801 Opilio  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:15:08pm

re: #780 realwest

What? What "FREE" things are they gonna get, other than perhaps free Bankruptcy counsel! Seriously, California could file for Bankruptcy or be DRAGGED into Bankruptcy by sufficient unpaid creditors. Take a look at what Kucinich did as Mayor of Cleveland if you don't believe me!

Anyone know what is the largest U.S. city to have gone bankrupt? I know NYC came close in the 70s. Just wondering.

802 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:15:35pm

re: #781 iceweasel

In other words, to destroy the enemy we have to become like them: quash dissent and when someone objects, tell everyone to shut up and clap louder. /

I think that Iraqis were paying more attention to our operations over there than they were to the speeches on the floor of the House and Senate, and I don't think raising criticisms is impeding the war effort.

To be trite - it worked in WWII. Do you not know that there was censorship of the news about setbacks in the war? Censorship regarding troop levels? Censorship regarding the outcome of the bombing campaign? When was the whole story of the Dresden bombing made public? And when it was, how was it first reported?

When the governing bodies of this country commit our troops to war, do you not think it is appropriate for them to continue to support the mission that THEY sent our blood to do?

If they have they have a problem with their decision do they not owe it to our armed forces to work out those problems in a forum somewhat less public than the floor of Congress?

I said nothing about stifling popular dissent. I speak only to the elected officials that voted to engage in armed conflict.

803 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:16:18pm

re: #790 Flyers1974

It's not a small minority here. They keep voting in Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein & Waxman. Over & over again. And I have had several (stunted) conversations with friends who can't WAIT to get their free healthcare.

804 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:17:03pm

re: #232 Afrocity

The African American guy who just asked Obama a question is obese. He had better run outta there before Obama taxes that bag of Doritos stuffed in his boxer shorts.

Where's he gonna run to? If he doesn't have coverage through work, he may be SOL. Getting coverage when you're too fat to tango is not fun. Been there.

805 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:17:28pm

re: #787 ShanghaiEd

One misconception I keep seeing is when people presume that anti-war protesters are Democrats. At the Iraq rallies I attended, I only heard the word "Democrats" when it was preceded by the adjective "f***ing." There was much anger, that millions of people had protested in the streets and the Democrats completely ignored them.

Of the dozen or so people I know who identified as Democrats before the invasion of Iraq, all but one now tell me they're Independents.

PS: The corollary to this is why I don't have the highest of hopes for Tea Parties changing anything, either.

Yes, yes, yes. The protesters did nothing to further the aims of the Democratic Party, that's for sure. The only way the tea parties help the GOP is by motivating the base.

806 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:17:44pm

re: #787 ShanghaiEd

One misconception I keep seeing is when people presume that anti-war protesters are Democrats. At the Iraq rallies I attended, I only heard the word "Democrats" when it was preceded by the adjective "f***ing." There was much anger, that millions of people had protested in the streets and the Democrats completely ignored them.

Of the dozen or so people I know who identified as Democrats before the invasion of Iraq, all but one now tell me they're Independents.

PS: The corollary to this is why I don't have the highest of hopes for Tea Parties changing anything, either.

EXACTLY! Thank god-- it can't be stated enough that the antiwar left loathes the Democrats at least as much, if not more, than they did Republicans. Progressives and people on the left felt betrayed by their leadership.

This is why the netroots was born, btw, and why democrats are now paying attention to progressives and others and the growing net dominance by the left.

807 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:18:08pm

re: #748 austin_blue
Um, you are aware, I assume, that the foreign intelligence agencies of Great Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Israel, and Germany ALL independently reached the same conclussion that our National Security Intelligence network had independently reached: That he had WMDs, had clearly shown his proclivity to use them (his use of gas - mustard gas, I believe - against Iraqi Kurds) and that he was racing to develop even more horrendous WMDs, including but not limited to, nuclear, Chemical and Biological agents?

808 Opilio  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:18:57pm

re: #794 austin_blue

But isn't there a little part of you that thinks "What if we had put those assets into Afghanistan and killed that fucker OBL?"

OBL has been pushing up poppies for some time.

JMHO.

809 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:19:13pm

re: #794 austin_blue

But isn't there a little part of you that thinks "What if we had put those assets into Afghanistan and killed that fucker OBL?"

We did kill that fucker OBL. Dude is dead and gone. Neither side will admit it because it suits both to keep the myth alive.

810 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:19:16pm

re: #803 Floral Giraffe

Why are my fellow Jews in the US so socialist? Feinstein, Boxer and Waxman are all Jews :(
Why can't there be a good Jewish republican. We Jews need moe Milton Friedmans.

811 dkorta  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:19:33pm

re: #783 Racer X

G1 - we went home because Bush Sr was slipping in the polls and the dems wanted all troops out. He placated the left as much as Jr did. Did not work.


OK, my memory might be getting a little fuzzy, but I thought the deal with G1 was that Bush Sr and co were able to assemble that huge multi-national force because they agreeed that the primary (and only) objective of the conflict was to remove the Iraqui forces from Kuwait. Regime change in Iraq was explicitly off the table.

So Bush Sr., given the opportunity to wreak havoc on Iraq, declined, because it wasn't what the objectives were understood to be at the outset of the conflict.

812 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:20:19pm

re: #794 austin_blue

But isn't there a little part of you that thinks "What if we had put those assets into Afghanistan and killed that fucker OBL?"

Perhaps, but now we are looking at an Iraq with democratic elections where the Iraqi people have a say in their future and the direction of their country. That's gotta count for something.

813 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:20:22pm

re: #803 Floral Giraffe

The ethic of self reliance and rugged individualism has been under remorseless assault for a long time. I, for one, have no interest in being a ward of the state.

814 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:20:36pm

re: #803 Floral Giraffe

It's not a small minority here. They keep voting in Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein & Waxman. Over & over again. And I have had several (stunted) conversations with friends who can't WAIT to get their free healthcare.

Only been to Cali once, and that was in the desert for five minutes. Well, anyone who thinks healthcare will ever be free is in for a surprise. Not that I'm against an Obama type plan, but it comes at a cost, i.e., taxes.

815 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:21:16pm

re: #777 schnapp

The communist party in America (which was quite large because of the Great Depression) was opposed to the war with Germany because Germany and Russia were initially allies.

Also a recurrent ideology in the American left (by which, please note, I don't mean the Democratic party), that war would invariably profit corporate shareholders and put back the cause of the working man.

816 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:21:52pm

re: #801 Opilio

I don't know a city, but Orange County, California declared bankruptcy in 1994. Wiki link to the info...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

817 solomonpanting  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:21:53pm

re: #806 iceweasel

This is why the netroots was born, btw, and why democrats are now paying attention to progressives and others and the growing net dominance by the left.

And here's hoping that dominance leads to a Carteresque beatdown in 2012.

818 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:22:07pm

re: #814 Flyers1974

Health care is already free more most Americans who get it through there employers. The employer pays most, if not all, of the premiums and decides which policy is best for his employees. How is the US health care system already not socialist?

819 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:22:24pm

re: #811 dkorta

Correct. And even when that prick Saddam kept firing missiles at our jets and ignoring the U.N. we still let him stay in power. Because it was re-election time. Sr should have taken his ass out.

820 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:22:40pm

re: #818 schnapp

"their" employers I just realised. TYPO!

821 emorykid10  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:22:44pm

Charles, this is disappointing. You assume dissatisfaction with Obama, some secessionists and any and all variants of neo-Nazism are 'right-wing' and thus use this to attack anyone and everyone who has any right-of-center political or ideological inclinations, telling them to denouce or renounce these atrocious criminals. This DOES make you, in some small part, a useful idiot for the left. Not that you are one, but this new side of you is slightly unnerving. I'm assuming Jonah Goldberg is still on your good side - and you should know in any case he's been saying Nazism is closer ideologically to the left than to the right.

What gets me is that sometimes there no explicit "right-wing" label to these guys - outside of deliberately implied ones (this is the mainstream media after all) until applied by you, who by saying the right should 'dissociate' from these individuals automatically does imply they are associated with the right-wing and thus share its base motivations, when often these criminals themselves do not explicitly label themselves right wing extremists.

Sometimes I think you deliberately look for ways to appear centrist to "legitimize" yourself, but in your haste to do so I think you may unintentionally doing partial damage to the Republican/conservative ideologies.

822 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:22:48pm

re: #786 SanFranciscoZionist

"Liberal" and the Communist left-wing political cluster are two different animals. Same way "Conservative" and theocratic monarchies are. There is no general left-wing ideology that includes liberalism.

That's why I rarely use the word "liberal" because it is abused and misused in US politics. I will say lefty or leftism/leftists, but even that is a bit too grey around the edges at times I consider myself to be a (classical) liberal but if I say that people look at me like I'm from mars and then just assume that I'm a democrat and nothing could be further from the truth. The same goes for "right-wing." It is so broad that it is sometimes confusing or useless as a definition without any context.

823 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:23:23pm

re: #790 Flyers1974

I'm in Maryland not California, but here at least, I don't know anyone who is expecting anything free. I'm thinking the percentage of those who believe so have to be a very small minority.

I don't know--some folks here keep telling me that under Obama there's gonna be incentives not to work. If these folks would just tell me where to sign up...

///

824 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:23:44pm

re: #811 dkorta

OK, my memory might be getting a little fuzzy, but I thought the deal with G1 was that Bush Sr and co were able to assemble that huge multi-national force because they agreeed that the primary (and only) objective of the conflict was to remove the Iraqui forces from Kuwait. Regime change in Iraq was explicitly off the table.

So Bush Sr., given the opportunity to wreak havoc on Iraq, declined, because it wasn't what the objectives were understood to be at the outset of the conflict.

Nothing fuzzy about your memory - Gulf War I. Not that Wikipedia is the end all source. Refer to the End of Hostilities bit. I remember the UN having some say in that as well.

825 Sergeant Major  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:24:22pm

My problem with some of our elected officials was the way they spoke about us..us being the military...terrorizing innocent people in the dead of night (para phrasing) Murhta I believed called us murderers...nothing is more disheartening than to hear that dribble..Although I have no respect for John Kerry.

826 Racer X  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:24:23pm

re: #821 emorykid10

I think you may unintentionally doing partial damage to the Republican/conservative ideologies.

No. They do just fine on their own without any help at all from this blog.

827 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:24:42pm

re: #802 Van Helsing

To be trite - it worked in WWII. Do you not know that there was censorship of the news about setbacks in the war? Censorship regarding troop levels? Censorship regarding the outcome of the bombing campaign? When was the whole story of the Dresden bombing made public? And when it was, how was it first reported?

I'm aware of that. So far as I know it was only assholes like Geraldo rivera who were accidentally exposing information they shouldn't have. So?

When the governing bodies of this country commit our troops to war, do you not think it is appropriate for them to continue to support the mission that THEY sent our blood to do?
If they have they have a problem with their decision do they not owe it to our armed forces to work out those problems in a forum somewhat less public than the floor of Congress?

But where do you propose they 'work it out', then? Behind closed doors? Somewhere where the public has no access to what they're saying and doing? No thanks. Sounds like a prescription for turning us into Oceania.
That's the problem with a representative democracy; the people have a right to know and a need to know what our reps are doing.

I said nothing about stifling popular dissent. I speak only to the elected officials that voted to engage in armed conflict.

I fail to see how having debates on the Senate and House floors threatens the war effort. In fact it looks to me like those debates are crucial to our democracy.

(BTW, if Obama engaged in a war and the Repub's voted for it, and then had concerns and had issues they wanted to raise-- I'd hope that they'd do so. It wouldn't bother me to have it debated in Congress; I'd welcome it.)

828 tradewind  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:24:57pm

re: #467 Dark_Falcon

Complicated by BaBaWaWa Syndrome.

829 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:25:02pm

re: #810 schnapp

I LOVED living in Waxman's district. His office was responsive to every question I asked! Heck, I kept calling them even after I moved out of his district...

830 Sambo  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:25:37pm

re: #823 SanFranciscoZionist

The folks telling you that under Obama there will be incentives not to work are correct. The incentives will come in the form of crushing taxes.

831 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:25:42pm

re: #803 Floral Giraffe

It's not a small minority here. They keep voting in Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein & Waxman. Over & over again. And I have had several (stunted) conversations with friends who can't WAIT to get their free healthcare.

How many of your friends pay federal income tax?
Free isn't. TAANSTFL. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Unless you're one of the 40-45% that doesn't pay federal income tax.

832 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:27:41pm

re: #826 Racer X

No. They do just fine on their own without any help at all from this blog.

Exactly they are tripping over each other to look like total fools right now when the best thing to do would be to just like Obama step on his own crank.

833 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:27:44pm

re: #781 iceweasel

In other words, to destroy the enemy we have to become like them: quash dissent and when someone objects, tell everyone to shut up and clap louder. /

I think that Iraqis were paying more attention to our operations over there than they were to the speeches on the floor of the House and Senate, and I don't think raising criticisms is impeding the war effort.


I would say that I do agree with you on that. OTOH, take a look at the Vietnam War and try to say that with a straight face - forget Kerry - while still in the Navy - was advising the North Vietnamese in Paris during the "Peace Talks" I mean they viewed the waves of protestors and dissenters in this country to mean that we'd pull out and therby being so encouraged did INDEED press the fight harder than they would have against US Troops in the field.

834 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:28:52pm

re: #806 iceweasel

EXACTLY! Thank god-- it can't be stated enough that the antiwar left loathes the Democrats at least as much, if not more, than they did Republicans. Progressives and people on the left felt betrayed by their leadership.

This is why the netroots was born, btw, and why democrats are now paying attention to progressives and others and the growing net dominance by the left.

Yep. Democrats, and 'liberals' in general, are despised by the ANSWER people.

Some of the hard lefties were briefly intrigued by Obama, but he's losing ground with them by the day.

As a Democrat, I firmly feel that the party should give no time whatsoever to these folks. They're crazy, fundamentally anti-American, and not too bright. But they're organized---really organized...

835 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:30:40pm

re: #803 Floral Giraffe

It's not a small minority here. They keep voting in Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein & Waxman. Over & over again. And I have had several (stunted) conversations with friends who can't WAIT to get their free healthcare.

I have lightened up a little on Feinstein since she started working with a local republican mayor in my area to bring the hammer down, HARD, on street gangs in CA.

I may not agree with her other positions, but she gets props from me for her work against gangs.

836 Kragar  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:31:25pm

Most Californians I know who see whats coming are working hard to become former Californians

837 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:31:54pm

re: #827 iceweasel

I'll agree to disagree. The censorship extended to domestic issues (see 799 above) and dissent was stifled.

The time for debate is before you make the commitment to put our troops into combat.

Once you've made that decision, as far as I'm concerned you STFU STFD and let the military accomplish the mission that you have given them.

Don't like that it gets ugly? Then you provide guidelines to the DoD. You don't stand up on the floors of Congress and say we've lost and all we can do is get out.

My opinion.

By the way, you ever hear of Al Jazeera?

838 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:32:35pm

re: #790 Flyers1974

I'm in Maryland not California, but here at least, I don't know anyone who is expecting anything free. I'm thinking the percentage of those who believe so have to be a very small minority.


With respect, I'm not in California either, and your question might be better directed at Floral Giraffe who is.
Oh and btw, there are a large and growing Islamic community in Maryland, most of whom wind up on Welfare while they try to learn a trade or - in THIS economy, try to find a job. But MD. hasn't, to the best of my knowledge spent it's money quite the way the folks in California have.

839 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:32:36pm

re: #831 Van Helsing

They were very stunted conversations. As far as I know, they all pay Fed. taxes. Not freeloaders, but good mostly self-employed people. Just, well, moonbats. We have a lot of them here. See Pelosi, Feinstein, Boxer & Waxman.

840 dkorta  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:32:39pm

re: #819 Racer X

Correct. And even when that prick Saddam kept firing missiles at our jets and ignoring the U.N. we still let him stay in power. Because it was re-election time. Sr should have taken his ass out.

Yeah, and had Sr. "taken him out", how would the incoming Clinton administraton have handled the situation they inherited? We know all too well how they handled the Somalia situation they inherited./

841 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:33:09pm

re: #821 emorykid10

No True Right Wing Extremist.

842 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:33:40pm

re: #836 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Most Californians I know who see whats coming are working hard to become former Californians

I'll be the crazy old lady on the porch with a shotgun, shooing off the mutant insects. No one's going to pry me away from the Bay again.

But don't let me stop anyone...

Saw a piece in the paper a few days ago, though, about people leaving Cali. Apparently the grandchildren of the Okies are starting to move back to the homeland.

843 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:33:44pm

re: #836 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

I'm looking at the possibility of Oregon, and you?

844 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:33:57pm

re: #839 Floral Giraffe

People don't get it. The US health care system is already socialist and that is why it has enormous problems.

845 Syrah  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:34:07pm

re: #836 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Most Californians I know who see whats coming are working hard to become former Californians

I did that 10 years ago.

It was not hard to read the tea-leaves even then.

846 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:34:23pm

re: #834 SanFranciscoZionist


Some of the hard lefties were briefly intrigued by Obama, but he's losing ground with them by the day..

Oh sure, and loads of groups who voted for Obama are pissed at him. Some of the civil liberties people expected him to roll back some of the Bush policies--he hasn't. He's enforcing those policies. Gay rights activists are pissed off about the brief the DOJ just filed on DOMA. And that he hasn't changed DADT yet.

Hell, even Bob Herbert in the NYT woke up yesterday and wrote an OpEd about how it's wrong to support Obama for the same policies he criticised Bush for having. Better late than never!

847 Opilio  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:34:27pm

re: #817 solomonpanting

And here's hoping that dominance leads to a Carteresque beatdown in 2012.

And even more importantly, a mid-term neutering in 2010 to reintroduce some much needed gridlock into the federal government.

848 Kragar  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:34:42pm

re: #835 Slumbering Behemoth

I have lightened up a little on Feinstein since she started working with a local republican mayor in my area to bring the hammer down, HARD, on street gangs in CA.

I may not agree with her other positions, but she gets props from me for her work against gangs.

Was this before or after she made sure her husband's company got DoD contracts while serving on the military appropriations committee?

849 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:34:48pm

re: #796 schnapp

I probably misunderstood you, but was LBJ not a Democrat?

Yeah, you probably did misunderstand me. I was asking about Republican's who were dissenting from a war in progress. LBJ gave THE major boost to the war in Vietnam.

850 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:34:56pm

re: #727 Iron Fist

WMD in Iraq. Do you deny that the French and Russians were bribed? That Democrats voted for the war? What is your "history", and wehere did you read it?

I certainly don't deny the Oil-for-Food Programme was crooked, or that most Democrats voted to authorize force. I would quibble that most people didn't think the "mushroom cloud" we were warned about was made up of bacteria. I've read my history in hundreds of sources, and the conclusions I've drawn from it are just as valid as yours.

851 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:35:27pm

re: #825 Sergeant Major

It's detrimental to morale, and Murtha should have his... well, that part would get this post deleted. Just use your imagination.

852 Kragar  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:35:57pm

re: #843 Floral Giraffe

I'm looking at the possibility of Oregon, and you?

Working to get my CISSP, then thinking AZ, NV or TX

853 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:36:24pm

re: #801 Opilio
I do beleive it was Cleveland. With Kucinich as Mayor.

854 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:36:39pm

re: #839 Floral Giraffe

They were very stunted conversations. As far as I know, they all pay Fed. taxes. Not freeloaders, but good mostly self-employed people. Just, well, moonbats. We have a lot of them here. See Pelosi, Feinstein, Boxer & Waxman.

I've noticed the same in some conversations I've had with fairly well to do folks that probably pay their share of taxes.

Myself, I don't understand it. I contribute to charities. I don't think that using the federal bureaucracy to collect money and redistribute is the most efficient method available.

855 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:36:54pm

re: #838 realwest

Very good Victor Davis Hanson article on California's suicide.
He's a native son, and a historian.
[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

856 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:37:01pm

re: #836 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Most Californians I know who see whats coming are working hard to become former Californians

I see what is coming, but I hate the climate everywhere else (except maybe Perth Australia and the coast of Israel). I resent being run out of the place I was born by socialists who don't understand TAANSTAAFL.

Let them run the state into the ground. I actually want to see the explosion on this one. As long as cops don't tow my car for the tags being expired when the DMV is shut down or backlogged for months, I don't care. I get ZERO tax-dollar value from Sacramento now.

857 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:37:39pm

re: #848 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

I thought that was Pelosi?

858 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:37:45pm

re: #837 Van Helsing

The time for debate is before you make the commitment to put our troops into combat.Once you've made that decision, as far as I'm concerned you STFU STFD and let the military accomplish the mission that you have given them.

We agree to disagree on that. Dissenting just because 'it gets ugly' is a bad idea, but i think it's important to continually reevaluate our policies in light of changing conditions on the ground. Doing that can only help our troops in the long run.

By the way, you ever hear of Al Jazeera?

Do you honestly believe I haven't?

859 jvic  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:38:08pm

re: #569 Racer X

But heres what I don't get. Every time Barney gets criticized the lefties say he is so smart and has a great financial mind. I don't see it. Can someone give me an example of Barney Frank's expertise "expertise"?

I took the liberty of editing your question into one I answered this morning.

Why has he been in congress, and more specifically, on the financial committee for so long?

He represents a liberal upscale district, so his constituents are not affected by the damage he does. He'd be right at home among the sanctimonious Democrats who have wrecked California.

860 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:38:09pm

re: #856 ArchangelMichael

I live in Perth!

861 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:39:35pm

re: #848 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Was this before or after she made sure her husband's company got DoD contracts while serving on the military appropriations committee?

I honestly don't know. I can tell you that her collaborative anti-gang efforts with that republican mayor have been ongoing for the last four years or so until that mayor term limited out.

862 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:40:28pm

re: #846 iceweasel

Oh sure, and loads of groups who voted for Obama are pissed at him. Some of the civil liberties people expected him to roll back some of the Bush policies--he hasn't. He's enforcing those policies. Gay rights activists are pissed off about the brief the DOJ just filed on DOMA. And that he hasn't changed DADT yet.

Hell, even Bob Herbert in the NYT woke up yesterday and wrote an OpEd about how it's wrong to support Obama for the same policies he criticised Bush for having. Better late than never!

This is the danger of coming into office with people thinking you're going to do exactly what they want, without reference to common sense or political survival. When you don't, they get nasty.

I remember back in 2004, the London Guardian ran a campaign asking their readers to write to Ohio voters and BEG them to vote for Kerry. I got into a couple of discussions on their comment threads, my basic point being that: a. this was really offensive, b. Americans actually vote for presidents on other grounds than foreign policy and c. They needed to understand that even if 'their' guy won, we would not be out of Iraq any time soon.

Got nowhere.

863 Kragar  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:40:30pm

re: #857 Floral Giraffe

I thought that was Pelosi?

Billions in military contracts to husband's firms were approved by Sen. Feinstein's committee, Metro Newspapers investigation reveals

Feinstein (D-Calif.) acted in apparent conflict of interest while approving billions of dollars in military construction expenditures, according to an investigative story by award-winning journalist Peter Byrne. The story was published jointly in the North Bay Bohemian and Metro Silicon Valley weekly newspapers this week.

Following Feinstein's participation at the legislative level, large contracts were awarded to two firms — URS Corporation and Perini Corporation — that were controlled by an investment group headed by the senator's spouse, financier Richard C. Blum.

Byrne's investigation reveals the following details about Feinstein's service as a member of the United States Senate's Military Construction Appropriations subcommittee (MILCON):

From 1997 through the end of 2005, with Feinstein's knowledge, her husband's group held a majority interest in two defense contractors active in Iraq and U.S. military bases.


While setting MILCON agendas, Feinstein supervised her own staff of military construction experts and lobbied Pentagon officials in public hearings.


From 2001 to 2005, URS earned $792 million from military construction and environmental cleanup projects approved by MILCON; Perini secured $759 million from MILCON projects.


Attorney Michael R. Klein, a Feinstein legal adviser and long-time Blum business partner, also served as vice-chairman of Perini's board of directors. In an interview with Byrne in September, Klein stated that, beginning in 1997, he routinely informed Feinstein about specific federal projects coming before her in which Perini had a stake. The insider information, Klein said, was intended to help the senator avoid conflicts of interest. Although Klein's admission was intended to defuse the issue of Feinstein's conflict of interest, it instead exacerbated it, and Sen. Feinstein did in fact vote on legislation that affected Perini and URS.

864 Scion9  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:40:35pm

re: #728 Flyers1974

Here is an interesting question, or maybe not: Why were there no protesters regarding WWII or the Korean War? As opposed to the Vietnam War and subsequent wars.

Well, in WWII we had a complete command economy on the back of a bad depression, lots of eager workers doing 16+ hour days and a 16 million man armed forces, 11 million being conscripts. There wasn't anyone available to do much in the way of 'protesting'. The Korean war was on the back of the post-WWII high and the hero of the day, Eisenhower, had enormous political will to expend in executing that war.

Regardless, there were dissenters in WWII, which were mostly the Bund and their good friends at 'America First', which is where the 'Blame America First' label probably originated. I believe a lot of the cultural animus towards protesters comes from this, given their antecedents were basically American Nazis, that themselves extended from a long line of haters of the American system of government. Enough so that they labeled themselves con-Federates once upon a time.

Based on my own anecdotal experience, a lot of 'anti-war' activism seems to be a new strain of 'Blame America First' isolationism, with the old underlying anti-Federalist sentiments that have been around since George Clinton. You can see the literal, direct offspring of those beliefs in the paleocons like Ron Paul, which perhaps unsurprisingly just so happen to also be popular in the same college-aged, stereotypically liberal anti-war culture. While they have gone off in their own directions politically, they seem to spring from the similar historical sentiments, interpretations and views of America.

Even if someone does have a valid criticism, or reason for opposing a specific war or military operation, for the entire history of this country the loudest shriekers at the forefront of opposition to the Federal government during wartime have always been pretty repugnant (Confederates, Marxist and left-anarchists, Bunds and various other Fascists) and practically always on the losing side of history as well. The anti-war movement, even assuming it is now a movement of good nature with valid concerns and criticisms (which I don't really believe it is) is still casting itself in the mold of the losers and dross of American history.

865 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:41:24pm

re: #807 realwest

Um, you are aware, I assume, that the foreign intelligence agencies of Great Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Israel, and Germany ALL independently reached the same conclussion that our National Security Intelligence network had independently reached: That he had WMDs, had clearly shown his proclivity to use them (his use of gas - mustard gas, I believe - against Iraqi Kurds) and that he was racing to develop even more horrendous WMDs, including but not limited to, nuclear, Chemical and Biological agents?

Yes. And they were all wrong, as you recall. The people on the ground, who Hussein let in in the fall of 2002 found nothing. The Iraqi government released a huge report in December, 2002 that detailed how they had dismantled their weapons systems after the Gulf War that the Admin immediately described as bullshit even though it was accurate. The inspectors stayed in Iraq, again finding nothing, until after Powell's speech in late January '03, forced out by US pressure in early February , when it was clear that we had cast the die. Really, this is not revisionist history.

866 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:42:04pm

re: #860 schnapp

I've never been there but everyone I know who has, says that it is nearly identical to Southern California weather (or at least in the ballpark), and thats the only climate I can stand. The only thing that would be a buzzkill for me is that my birthday would be in the winter instead of the summer down there.

867 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:42:18pm

re: #863 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

I stand corrected! Thank you!

868 schnapp  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:43:13pm

re: #866 ArchangelMichael

re: #860 schnapp

I've never been there but everyone I know who has, says that it is nearly identical to Southern California weather (or at least in the ballpark), and thats the only climate I can stand. The only thing that would be a buzzkill for me is that my birthday would be in the winter instead of the summer down there.

It's great if you love the summer but it gets too hot for me. I love the winter.

869 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:43:18pm

Going to watch TV and drink tea.

Night all.

870 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:43:59pm

re: #862 SanFranciscoZionist

Most kool-aid drinking Obama supporters I know still think that he supports Gay Marriage and a litany of other things that I could show them proof he didn't and they wouldn't believe it.

871 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:44:34pm

re: #858 iceweasel

The time for debate is before you make the commitment to put our troops into combat.Once you've made that decision, as far as I'm concerned you STFU STFD and let the military accomplish the mission that you have given them.

We agree to disagree on that. Dissenting just because 'it gets ugly' is a bad idea, but i think it's important to continually reevaluate our policies in light of changing conditions on the ground. Doing that can only help our troops in the long run.


By the way, you ever hear of Al Jazeera?

Do you honestly believe I haven't?

Re-evaluation of policy should be between congress and DoD. Read Sun-Tzu. It is never wise to let your enemy know your plans.

No. I'm sure you have. I'm also sure you can recognize what a powerful force for the dissemination of information in the most inflammatory way possible that they are.

872 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:44:59pm

And now I have to leave this thread and go to bed!
It has been interesting and spirited and with one or two exceptions (y'all can go by the "-"'s on a comment for who or what) civilised and intelligent discourse tonight - as with most nights I'd suppose (although since I'm usually a participant I don't see the big picture!).
Anyway, I do hope you all have a good evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you down the road.

Good night, all.

873 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:45:48pm

re: #862 SanFranciscoZionist

This is the danger of coming into office with people thinking you're going to do exactly what they want, without reference to common sense or political survival. When you don't, they get nasty.

I remember back in 2004, the London Guardian ran a campaign asking their readers to write to Ohio voters and BEG them to vote for Kerry. I got into a couple of discussions on their comment threads, my basic point being that: a. this was really offensive, b. Americans actually vote for presidents on other grounds than foreign policy and c. They needed to understand that even if 'their' guy won, we would not be out of Iraq any time soon.

Got nowhere.

Hey! I remember that! I think we probably 'saw' each other there!

I was in the UK at that time and it pissed me off so much.

874 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:45:55pm

re: #870 ArchangelMichael

Most kool-aid drinking Obama supporters I know still think that he supports Gay Marriage and a litany of other things that I could show them proof he didn't and they wouldn't believe it.

People hear what they want to hear. I'm sure Obama's speeches sound different to one of his supporters. Me, I can't stand them.

875 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:47:07pm

re: #870 ArchangelMichael

Most kool-aid drinking Obama supporters I know still think that he supports Gay Marriage and a litany of other things that I could show them proof he didn't and they wouldn't believe it.

Projection in politics...sigh. The marriage thing is hard for me. If Hillary was going to have the nomination taken away by some kid with a slick line of talk who makes progressives drool, I at least wanted a support for same-sex marriage. Is that too much to ask?

876 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:47:40pm

re: #792 realwest

"What about all the Republican lawmakers in our history who opposed a Democratic administration's war plans? Were they traitors? Were they shunned? Or were they principled?"
Who would they be SE? I mean, aftet the shooting started.
I know there were lots of folks against WWI and lots of folks against WWII but after the Lusitania was sunk and Pearl Harbor attacked, I can't think of any.
And Korea - same thing - started with Truman finished by Ike. Vietnam is trickier cause it lasted longer than any other war in our history but the only major forces of dissent while US Soldiers were being shot and killed were Democrats. So who is it you're talking about?

I'm assuming the Balkans are not applicable, here? Also, how do you define a "major force of dissent" as opposed to a "minor force of dissent" in the Vietnam years?

877 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:48:07pm

re: #873 iceweasel

Hey! I remember that! I think we probably 'saw' each other there!

I was in the UK at that time and it pissed me off so much.

Oh my! We meet again. It was really in atrociously bad taste, that campaign.

878 SFGoth  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:48:43pm

Oooh, I found another Nor. Cal. goth who's decidely anti-Obama! Woohoo! Time to pour a celebration drink.

879 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:50:31pm

re: #870 ArchangelMichael

Most kool-aid drinking Obama supporters I know still think that he supports Gay Marriage and a litany of other things that I could show them proof he didn't and they wouldn't believe it.

They often sound like those who claim that Darwin was a life-long atheist who concocted a bogus theory with the singular goal of killing their god.

Facts never seem to penetrate the Kook-Aide armor of a True Believer, no matter what it is they believe in.

880 Kragar  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:51:02pm

BTW, just got back from Transformers. Good summer movie, kids liked it.

881 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:51:47pm

re: #865 austin_blue
Sorry, hadda come back for that one: which proves that the intelligence Bush was given was WRONG. Wrong from our intelligence agencies and from 7 other independently arrived at other intelligence agencies. It doesn't mean Bush LIED and people Died.
At most Bush as a POTUS who believed the buck stopped with him, was wrong. Period.

882 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:52:00pm

re: #875 SanFranciscoZionist

Projection in politics...sigh. The marriage thing is hard for me. If Hillary was going to have the nomination taken away by some kid with a slick line of talk who makes progressives drool, I at least wanted a support for same-sex marriage. Is that too much to ask?

From an earlier thread:

I am in complete agreement and churches should never be told who they can or can't marry. Separation Clause. The State, on the other hand, is required under the Constitution to provide equal protection under the law for all citizens. Here's an idea: Have the States quit issuing "Marriage Licenses". Call 'em Social Contract Licenses or Domestic Partnership Licenses, whatever. Get the State out of the marriage business and leave it to the churches.

883 realwest  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:52:07pm

Good night again y'all!

884 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:52:38pm

re: #875 SanFranciscoZionist

Projection in politics...sigh. The marriage thing is hard for me. If Hillary was going to have the nomination taken away by some kid with a slick line of talk who makes progressives drool, I at least wanted a support for same-sex marriage. Is that too much to ask?

Well I'm not a democrat and not an Obama, or Hillary supporter (you know this though), and the Gay Marriage issue has always been a "isn't there more important things to worry about right now" type of thing for me, I'd take Gay Marriage if the left gave me back capitalism or the 2nd Amendment... in a heartbeat. If that was the only issue that the "right" didn't like Hillary on, then I would have had no problem with her (in reality I know that she had a long 'to do' list that would piss me off though).

885 Flyers1974  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:54:03pm

Good night everyone, excellent discussions on many topics I thought.

886 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:54:49pm

re: #871 Van Helsing

Re-evaluation of policy should be between congress and DoD. Read Sun-Tzu. It is never wise to let your enemy know your plans.

No. I'm sure you have. I'm also sure you can recognize what a powerful force for the dissemination of information in the most inflammatory way possible that they are.

I've read SunTzu. He wasn't writing a list of rules for a democracy.

Al Jazeera is going to do what it does regardless of what we do.

I have faith in the American process, and moreover I think the American system serves as an inspiration to others around the world.

Sure, Al Jazeera might run footage of debates on the House floor about Iraq and say "US lawmakers turning against war" or some such. But if they do that, the broader message that gets out is that we're a country that encourages and tolerates debate and dissent, and we're not some Bush-Cheney-Halliburton empire determined to steal Iraqi oil (or whatever lie Saddam et al were pushing about why we invaded).

I get where you're coming from, but I think America itself, our troops, and our democracy are all a lot stronger than you're giving them credit for. Our strength lies in our diversity, even in our diversity of opinions. Maybe especially there.

887 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:55:43pm

re: #885 Flyers1974

Night Flyers-- I have to take off for a while too. this was fun!

888 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:56:07pm

re: #882 austin_blue

Sounds reasonable enough, but how will that placate those who spend inordinate amounts of time seething and fantasizing about all the dirty, evil, icky things that homos will be doing to destroy the very fabric of our nation from the privacy of their own bedrooms?

/half sarc

889 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:57:20pm

re: #877 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh my! We meet again. It was really in atrociously bad taste, that campaign.

God yes, it was awful. Infuriating. My Brit friends genuinely could not see what was so condescending and offensive about it. Maddening.

890 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:57:43pm

re: #886 iceweasel

I've read SunTzu. He wasn't writing a list of rules for a democracy.

Al Jazeera is going to do what it does regardless of what we do.

I have faith in the American process, and moreover I think the American system serves as an inspiration to others around the world.

Sure, Al Jazeera might run footage of debates on the House floor about Iraq and say "US lawmakers turning against war" or some such. But if they do that, the broader message that gets out is that we're a country that encourages and tolerates debate and dissent, and we're not some Bush-Cheney-Halliburton empire determined to steal Iraqi oil (or whatever lie Saddam et al were pushing about why we invaded).

I get where you're coming from, but I think America itself, our troops, and our democracy are all a lot stronger than you're giving them credit for. Our strength lies in our diversity, even in our diversity of opinions. Maybe especially there.

We'll stick with agreeing to disagree on some points.

I appreciate the thoughtful dialog.

891 Kragar  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:58:35pm

re: #888 Slumbering Behemoth

Sounds reasonable enough, but how will that placate those who spend inordinate amounts of time seething and fantasizing about all the dirty, evil, icky things that homos will be doing to destroy the very fabric of our nation from the privacy of their own bedrooms?

/half sarc

Just toss them a slice of bread and say you see the Virgin mary in it and that should keep them busy for a while

892 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:59:15pm

re: #885 Flyers1974

Good night, Flyers. It's been a fast-paced night, here, and I've enjoyed it.

893 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 10:59:25pm

re: #890 Van Helsing

We'll stick with agreeing to disagree on some points.

I appreciate the thoughtful dialog.

So do I; thanks for this. It was really illuminating and I enjoyed it.

894 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:00:19pm

re: #883 realwest

Sleep well, RW. I look forward to talking with you again.

895 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:00:40pm

re: #889 iceweasel

God yes, it was awful. Infuriating. My Brit friends genuinely could not see what was so condescending and offensive about it. Maddening.

The thing to have done would have been to ask them how they would react in we asked them to vote a certain way for their Parliamentary Elections.

896 GGMac  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:03:01pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does Barney have a speech impediment? (other than the everything that comes out of his mouth is total horseshit)... But, does he have a physical problem?


Humans' DNA is 97% the same as chimps, 75 % the same as dogs, and 33% the same as daffodils.

Barney Franks? Too much daffodil DNA.

897 Kragar  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:03:22pm

What the hell? I can type whole sentences and nothing shows up, then everything gets put up all at once. Looks like LGF is eating up a lot of my CPU, antyhing going on?

898 Scion9  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:06:27pm

re: #886 iceweasel

I don't want America to descend back into rationing, millions of conscripts, censored media, et cetera like we had during WWII, but...


Sure, Al Jazeera might run footage of debates on the House floor about Iraq and say "US lawmakers turning against war" or some such. But if they do that, the broader message that gets out is that we're a country that encourages and tolerates debate and dissent, and we're not some Bush-Cheney-Halliburton empire determined to steal Iraqi oil (or whatever lie Saddam et al were pushing about why we invaded).

If our legislators, elected officials and respected pundits are publicly stating that we are some Bush-Cheney-Halliburton empire determined to steal Iraqi oil, then it doesn't really paint the picture any other way.

Especially considering it's not like Al Jazeera, Al Manr et al are going to play the entire proceedings and debate. They are just going to play Dick Durbin saying the war is lost, and identifying him as one of the sub-1,000 individuals that effectively run the country and the decide the direction of our military. What 'debate' are our enemies being made aware of?

899 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:06:38pm

re: #897 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What the hell? I can type whole sentences and nothing shows up, then everything gets put up all at once. Looks like LGF is eating up a lot of my CPU, antyhing going on?

Not that I've noticed.

900 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:06:58pm

re: #897 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

When that happens to me, I just close out the cyborg midget pr0n site I have open in another window. That should speed things up for you.
/

901 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:07:04pm

re: #896 GGMac

Humans' DNA is 97% the same as chimps, 75 % the same as dogs, and 33% the same as daffodils.

Barney Franks? Too much daffodil DNA.

I'd say too much butt-monkey DNA, but that's just me.

902 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:07:15pm

re: #888 Slumbering Behemoth

Sounds reasonable enough, but how will that placate those who spend inordinate amounts of time seething and fantasizing about all the dirty, evil, icky things that homos will be doing to destroy the very fabric of our nation from the privacy of their own bedrooms?

/half sarc

It won't, of course. Some people just see evil where it doesn't exist.

903 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:07:28pm

re: #901 Dark_Falcon

I'd say too much butt-monkey DNA, but that's just me.

Heh.

904 Kragar  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:08:11pm

re: #900 Slumbering Behemoth

When that happens to me, I just close out the cyborg midget pr0n site I have open in another window. That should speed things up for you.
/

That was the first thing I did, even rebooted

/not sarc

905 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:10:37pm

re: #900 Slumbering Behemoth

When that happens to me, I just close out the cyborg midget pr0n site I have open in another window. That should speed things up for you.
/

I had to ding that up cuz it made me almost spew my ale.

906 austin_blue  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:10:49pm

Goodnight all. Sweet dreams and hold a good thought for change in Iran.

907 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:13:46pm

re: #906 austin_blue

Goodnight all. Sweet dreams and hold a good thought for change in Iran.

I will. And thank you for sticking around, austin. It's good to meet someone who shares my interests.

908 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:15:38pm

I gotta post this just because Gun control

909 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:16:31pm

re: #818 schnapp

Health care is already free more most Americans who get it through there employers. The employer pays most, if not all, of the premiums and decides which policy is best for his employees. How is the US health care system already not socialist?

How is a job perk "Socialist"? Nobody is forced to accept that coverage, are they? Can't they buy a private policy from anywhere, if they prefer?

910 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:17:29pm

re: #908 Van Helsing

I gotta post this just because Gun control

Loves it! Hail Shatner, TV god!

911 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:18:05pm

re: #902 austin_blue

I just don't see how legally recognized, homosexual unions would have a negative affect on me, my nation, or other people's hetero marriages. It does not compute.

Some folks who are most vocal against gay marriage, though, are the type that are against gay anything. For them, our nation's "tolerance" for their "lifestyle choice" is the root of all the evil in this world; from soldiers dying in combat abroad, to hurricanes, to the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

If we lived in a perfect world of peace brotherly love, they would blame incidences of hangnails and athletes foot on our "tolerance of gays".

912 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:18:46pm

re: #895 Dark_Falcon

The thing to have done would have been to ask them how they would react in we asked them to vote a certain way for their Parliamentary Elections.

That's exactly what I did!
"How would you feel if a bunch of people in Ohio were writing to you to explain to you who your MP should be? Wouldn't you find it...a little presumptuous, to say the least?"

The response I got, no matter how smart the person, was generally an uncomprehending stare. Occasionally they'd say, "But they elected Bush."

913 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:20:03pm

re: #904 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, you probably need to close out the multi-tongued, Amazonian priestess pr0n site as well.

/I often forget that step myself

914 freetoken  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:20:17pm

re: #911 Slumbering Behemoth

No kidding.

Indeed, you've convinced me to post the latest gay exorcism video in the spin-offs once the LNDT gets here.

915 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:20:19pm

re: #912 iceweasel

That's exactly what I did!
"How would you feel if a bunch of people in Ohio were writing to you to explain to you who your MP should be? Wouldn't you find it...a little presumptuous, to say the least?"

The response I got, no matter how smart the person, was generally an uncomprehending stare. Occasionally they'd say, "But they elected Bush."

They thought Ohioans were just a bunch of hicks who needed guidance, is that it? Or was it something deeper?

916 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:22:18pm

re: #914 freetoken

No kidding.

Indeed, you've convinced me to post the latest gay exorcism video in the spin-offs once the LNDT gets here.

I saw that on Foxnews. The Bad Craziness continues. This one leaves me seriously irked. Anybody who thinks gayness must be exorcised has a screw loose somewhere.

917 GGMac  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:22:39pm

re: #901 Dark_Falcon

I'd say too much butt-monkey DNA, but that's just me.

My sentiments as well - but since I'm a sweet little 71-year old great-grannie, I wouldn't want to startle the young lizards by actually saying it!

;)

918 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:23:42pm

re: #909 ShanghaiEd

How is a job perk "Socialist"? Nobody is forced to accept that coverage, are they? Can't they buy a private policy from anywhere, if they prefer?

Yes, that's a tough one...

Lessee... my employer offers that as a perk. I can accept or decline. If I decline, nothing bars me from seeking other coverage. If I accept, there is generally a portion that I must pay. If my employer is paying a part of the price then I'm turning down a net increase to my income.

I'm not (quite) at the room temperature IQ point.

What should I do?

919 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:24:59pm

re: #909 ShanghaiEd

And, in my experience, private policies were a LOT less expensive than the COBRA.

920 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:25:25pm

re: #905 Van Helsing

If it made you laugh, then I am truly happy. Aside from coming here to learn about things I might not find elsewhere, my secondary goal is to make Lizards laugh. I often fail, but I keep trying.

921 Millicent Islam  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:27:13pm

re: #915 Dark_Falcon

They thought Ohioans Americans were just a bunch of hicks who needed guidance, is that it?

See my edit.
It was pretty shocking and annoying.

this would often be clarified with "but not you, you're different"...which wasn't very comforting. Kind of like a chauvinist asshole who tells you that all women are dumb bitches-- "but not you, honey!", or like I imagine it would feel to be the only black person at your job and have your colleagues telling racist jokes, only to reassure you that "We don't mean you, you're not one of those others."

Yeah, colour me annoyed.

922 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:30:23pm

re: #911 Slumbering Behemoth

I just don't see how legally recognized, homosexual unions would have a negative affect on me, my nation, or other people's hetero marriages. It does not compute.

Some folks who are most vocal against gay marriage, though, are the type that are against gay anything. For them, our nation's "tolerance" for their "lifestyle choice" is the root of all the evil in this world; from soldiers dying in combat abroad, to hurricanes, to the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

If we lived in a perfect world of peace brotherly love, they would blame incidences of hangnails and athletes foot on our "tolerance of gays".


My view (FWITW) is that the government has a civil interest in any contract such as 'marriage'.
The civil side of 'marriage' most certainly has aspects that WILL end up being in court to be addressed.
I think that government should deal with the civil aspect of the contract as with any other - no matter what kind of partnership it is.

Marriage - minus the civil responsibilities, should be left strictly to churches.

923 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:32:32pm

re: #922 Van Helsing

My view (FWITW) is that the government has a civil interest in any contract such as 'marriage'.
The civil side of 'marriage' most certainly has aspects that WILL end up being in court to be addressed.
I think that government should deal with the civil aspect of the contract as with any other - no matter what kind of partnership it is.

Marriage - minus the civil responsibilities, should be left strictly to churches.

Quite concur.

924 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:32:49pm

re: #914 freetoken

No kidding.

Indeed, you've convinced me to post the latest gay exorcism video in the spin-offs once the LNDT gets here.

Well, it's open thread on the front page.

I personally am taking it as an LNDT.

925 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:33:08pm

re: #918 Van Helsing

Yes, that's a tough one...

Lessee... my employer offers that as a perk. I can accept or decline. If I decline, nothing bars me from seeking other coverage. If I accept, there is generally a portion that I must pay. If my employer is paying a part of the price then I'm turning down a net increase to my income.

I'm not (quite) at the room temperature IQ point.

What should I do?

Well, I've always taken my employer's insurance when available, because the employer paid part of the premium. But I've never considered myself a "Socialist" for choosing to do that. Do you?

926 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:36:41pm

re: #544 capitalist piglet

Would you say DemocraticUnderground is a fair representation of Democrats?

I found the traffic figures, and they're exactly what we expected:

Free Republic
Web ranking: 4,306
Portion of Web users who visit it: .02%

Democratic Underground
Web ranking: 5,899
Portion of Web users who visit it: .015%

927 Van Helsing  Wed, Jun 24, 2009 11:37:02pm

re: #925 ShanghaiEd

Well, I've always taken my employer's insurance when available, because the employer paid part of the premium. But I've never considered myself a "Socialist" for choosing to do that. Do you?

Nope. Capitalist all the way. Part of my compensation package.
Now if the government offers the same using taxpayer money to subsidize the cost... as long as there are other options that would destroy me fiscally, I'm taking them.

My health is my responsibility. I don't expect some random X that doesn't consume my company's products to pay for it. Unlike a government program.

928 njoriole  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 6:55:49am

Charles: Please stop with the "What Right Wing Extremists?" canard. No one ever claimed (that I am aware of) that there are no "right wing extremists." The big objection I had from the DHS report was how the government took a legitimate governmental concern (the protection of the lives and property of American citizens) and turned it into a blatantly political broadside. We all want our country protected from right wing extremists (and from left wing extremists, and from whatever-extremists, of any stripe). However, when they warned police departments to consider as suspect people who are focused on single-issue politics (and I believe that pro-life and 2nd Amendment activists were mentioned specifically), that crossed a scary line, and no amount of snark from you will shame us into thinking otherwise.

929 Tats66  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 7:31:59am

What I would really like to know is this:

Are there more and more of these kooks appearing now, or are their numbers the same as ever, maybe even less, but is the "objective, fair and balanced, non partisan" media, simply reporting on more of them than ever?

930 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 9:39:44am

re: #928 njoriole

Charles: Please stop with the "What Right Wing Extremists?" canard.

No.

However, when they warned police departments to consider as suspect people who are focused on single-issue politics (and I believe that pro-life and 2nd Amendment activists were mentioned specifically), that crossed a scary line, and no amount of snark from you will shame us into thinking otherwise.

And no amount of willful distortion of the DHS report from you will change the fact that the outrage over the report was misdirected, wrong, and silly.

But thanks for clarifying that facts make no difference to you.

931 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 9:41:31am

re: #929 Tats66

What I would really like to know is this:

Are there more and more of these kooks appearing now, or are their numbers the same as ever, maybe even less, but is the "objective, fair and balanced, non partisan" media, simply reporting on more of them than ever?

The stories linked above got no national coverage at all. Those are all in local papers.

932 tveitskog  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 9:56:49am

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Most Tea Party people are very law abiding and conservative type of people. That the Tea Partiers are somehow tied to anti-gov. militias and white nationalist is ridiculous. What’s your evidence?

933 doubter4444  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 10:17:32am

re: #9 Mike McDaniel

The question might better be: How many stories about left-wing violence are being suppressed by the propaganda press?

I did not see any slashies, so I'm going to assume that you are serious, and I have not read through the thread yet to see if you've been repeatedly spanked, but for god's sake, it's that type of thinking that engenders the exact thing this post is about: It's a Left -Wing and MSM conspiracy to keep all those murders out of the newspapers, TVs and Blogs! Woo-Hoo! Acorn! Greenpeas!

If you are serious, you are pathetic.
The reason there is no reporting of left-wing violence is that at this moment, there is none.
I've said in other threads, I think the last time there has been a left-wing politically motivated murder was decades ago... (I think, I haven't done an exhaustive search, but I've looked around, and did not find any, so I will admit, I could be wrong on a specific case, but the argument stands).
There HAS been EFL/ALF types doing stupid, destructive things, and I do think there have been injuries and perhaps deaths because of it... you know how I found out about these cases?
THE MEDIA. THE INTERNET.
TV reports, Blog and Newspaper reporting.
In fact several years ago the ELF torching of Hummer dealerships was a pretty big deal in So. Cal (it happened in San Diego, I think).
The person who did something similar (I don't remember the situation, exactly, but it was an auto dealership or new housing track or something) was sentenced to prison recently.
So get a grip, or get some more tinfoil, either way, get some facts.

Sorry for the rant, but this kind of mindset really pisses me off.
It's ALWAYS someone else's fault, there is always a worse case on the "other" side that mitigates ones actions, or there are forces at work to keep the "story" from coming out...

934 tveitskog  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 10:18:06am

re: #146 iceweasel

What’s your definition of far right? If you’re dumping conservatives into this group your wrong. Conservatives want to do things in life for themselves. They want to make their own decisions for their lives. They believe in individual freedom.

935 doubter4444  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 10:35:47am

re: #659 austin_blue

And yet, amazingly enough, in March of 2003, 45% of the American people thought Iraq was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

By September 2003, that number was up to 70%!

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

How did that happen?

It was that damn liberal media that loved Saddam!

936 doubter4444  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 10:47:35am

re: #811 dkorta

OK, my memory might be getting a little fuzzy, but I thought the deal with G1 was that Bush Sr and co were able to assemble that huge multi-national force because they agreed that the primary (and only) objective of the conflict was to remove the Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Regime change in Iraq was explicitly off the table.

So Bush Sr., given the opportunity to wreak havoc on Iraq, declined, because it wasn't what the objectives were understood to be at the outset of the conflict.

Powell did not want to go it, poor thing, he was "worried" that if we when in and toppled Saddam that we could not control what would happen next...like mass looting and sectarian violence and descent into chaos and that we would be stuck there for a decade or more with thousands or troops...
What a pussy, and I mean, what the hell did he know?

937 Joel  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 10:56:58am

re: #80 Killgore Trout

No, actually I was a Rudy supporter.

You could have fooled me!

938 oldbluesboy  Thu, Jun 25, 2009 11:13:49am

These outlaws are not conservatives OR liberals. Don't put them in My back yard. This country is a Republic, founded on LAW. These idiots were guilty of breaking the law, as are many others who adhere to radical, harmful actions, which are a nuisance that permeates society, and blindly assumed to be associated with any group of ideologists. It is a mistake to be led in pursuit of associations for these mentally deranged persons mentioned above, in addition to the Una-bomber, E.L.F., etc.

This is a grand distraction to take us from the truth of what is in store for us. Stop arguing and do your homework.
PLEASE take time to study the stealth movement at our front door.

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

939 njoriole  Fri, Jun 26, 2009 11:23:28am

Charles: Where exactly did I distort the DHS report? Did they not, in fact, specifically mention single-issue political action? Notice that word: POLITICAL. How is it a distortion to take note of something specifically in the report? And why the snotty and insulting, Kos-like/Sullivanish comment about "facts don't matter" to me? When I pointedly stated that "We all want our country protected from right-wing extremists." Apparently, taking issue with even one part of the DHS report (or of your take on the issue) makes me the same as those who engaged in "outrage." Wow! And here I thought I wrote a reasoned and fairly level-headed critique, lacking in hyperbole and "outrage." It honestly did not occur to me that I was actually engaging in some good old-fashioned militia boosting. Who knew I was actually an apologist for right-wing extremists?


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