Cap and Trade Pros and Cons

Environment • Views: 10,117

Wired has a balanced look at the controversy around the Waxman-Markey “cap and trade” climate change bill passed last week by the House: Update: Climate Bill Clears House by Narrow Margin.

Commonly referred to as the Waxman-Markey bill, after the original Democratic sponsors Henry Waxman of California and Edward Markey of Massachussets, the legislation has been the subject of aggressive attacks by both right- and left-wing groups.

Right-wing groups like the Heritage Foundation say the bill will cripple the American economy. They point out that the bill will effectively raise the price of carbon, and because the vast majority of our electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels, the cost of electricity is likely to rise, at least in the near-term.

Left-leaning environmental groups say the bill doesn’t go nearly far enough to combat climate change, particularly in the next decade. They also aren’t happy that the utilities will receive their carbon permits for free. Many were pushing for 100 percent auctions, with the money refunded to taxpayers or used to support alternative energy R&D.

While both sides seem to have very specific projections about the costs of the bill 10 years in the future, all numbers should be viewed skeptically. It’s very difficult to predict what the price of fossil fuels will be three years out, let alone 10. For example, if global oil and natural gas prices spike — and this bill has generated substantial investments in alternatives — then it will seem like a great idea, regardless of the legislation’s impact on the country’s carbon dioxide emissions.

That level of uncertainty could be carried across the rest of the bill. One major argument in favor of passing the climate bill is that it will make international climate negotiations in Copenhagen later this year easier. If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

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444 comments
1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 11:57:49am

At first I thought I didn't like this bill.

Now I think I don't like this bill.

2 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 11:58:15am

107 here in L.A. yesterday.

Help me Obama-won-Kenobi! You're my only Hope!

3 Bob Dillon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 11:58:36am

Now, I only know what I have read - but it would be nice if our reps would read things before voting.

4 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 11:58:56am

re: #2 Racer X

107 here in L.A. yesterday.

Help me Obama-won-Kenobi! You're my only Hope!

Could I borrow a few degrees? I think they could use some in Alaska, too.

5 turn  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 11:59:41am

This piece of legislation is over 1000 pages long, you know congress hasn't read this damn thing. "If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own." Sure, when pigs fly.

6 Kragar  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 11:59:44am
China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

Not a chance in hell of either one doing that

7 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 11:59:46am

If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.
I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about China instituting greenhouse curbs...

8 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:00:21pm

Sorry, but anyone who is Pro Cap 'n Tax is trying to Con us.

9 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:00:32pm

I want to know why the EPA suppressed a report skeptical of Global Warming?

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

10 researchok  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:01:07pm

Al Gore has made up to $100 million to date on cap and trade sleight of hand.

That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in how fair the process and process really is.

11 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:01:08pm

re: #2 Racer X

107 here in L.A. yesterday.

Help me Obama-won-Kenobi! You're my only Hope!

Actually it's Ob I Won........

12 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:01:21pm

Here's hope and change...

HOPE that putting a tax on a basic commodity will encourage you to CHANGE your habits (like heat, food, transport...)

HOPE that putting a damper on our own economy will CHANGE India's and China's mind about providing for their population.

HOPE that artificially raising the price of oil and gas will CHANGE the laws of physics and energy will suddenly be available from vegetable matter without starving millions when food crops spike in price.

13 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:01:34pm
While both sides seem to have very specific projections about the costs of the bill 10 years in the future, all numbers should be viewed skeptically. It’s very difficult to predict what the price of fossil fuels will be three years out, let alone 10. For example, if global oil and natural gas prices spike — and this bill has generated substantial investments in alternatives — then it will seem like a great idea regardless of the legislation’s impact on the country’s carbon dioxide emissions.

That level of uncertainty could be carried across the rest of the bill. One major argument in favor of passing the climate bill is that it will make international climate negotiations in Copenhagen later this year easier. If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.


1) Yeah.... what a great idea... substantially increase the cost of energy to consumers for little or no good reason
2) Leading on an issue that will almost certainly make near zero difference climatologically and heavily tax several economies.

14 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:01:45pm

Does this mean the polar bears aren't gonna' drown?

15 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:02:32pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

Not a chance in hell of either one doing that

And then again, they could just laugh their asses off at us.......

16 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:02:34pm

Crap and Trade will do absolutely nothing, Zero, towards reducing the Global Warmenings. On the flip side it will decimate the American economy by taxing the hell out of energy usage.

How'd you like paying close to $5 a gallon for gas? How does $8 or $9 sound? Get ready for it because in order to make alternative energy cost effective thats what you will have to pay for gas. The left will see to it that you do.

17 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:02:40pm

re: #14 MandyManners

Does this mean the polar bears aren't gonna' drown?

Don't worry, the Sea Kitties will hold them up.

18 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:02:46pm

re: #14 MandyManners

Does this mean the polar bears aren't gonna' drown?

Dang bears learned how to swim!
I blame Bush

19 Zimriel  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:03:08pm

I can't say what's in the bill. I can say that the bill never should have made it to the floor. It's an abuse of procedure for the House to pass a bill with "placeholders" in it, and a betrayal of trust for individual members to vote "yea" on something they hain't read.

Iain Murray proposes a Constitutional Amendment. Call it the Anti-Ignorant-Fool Amendment:

“No bill shall be deemed to have passed the House of Representatives or the Senate unless such bill shall have received a majority of yeay votes from the membership of each House; yeay votes shall only be counted from members who swear under penalty of perjury that they have read the entirety of the text of each bill.”
20 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:03:28pm

re: #14 MandyManners

Does this mean the polar bears aren't gonna' drown?

...that and we will have a surplus of elderly heat stroke and hypothermia victims to feed them with. /

21 a marine mom  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:03:49pm

Bottom line for Congress: If you don't read the bill, you don't vote for it!

22 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:04:35pm
While both sides seem to have very specific projections about the costs of the bill 10 years in the future, all numbers should be viewed skeptically. It’s very difficult to predict what the price of fossil fuels will be three years out, let alone 10.

What's going on here? Nuance? New-ahnce? That sounds funny. Sounds French!

i want no part of it. I shall huddle under the duvet until I receive some talking points.

/snarc!

//btw, i'm snarking on both parties.

///I guess I should use a word other than 'duvet'

23 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:04:36pm

re: #18 HoosierHoops

Dang bears learned how to swim!
I blame Bush

Swim lessons for bears were cut from the budget, don't you know.

24 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:04:38pm

re: #21 a marine mom

Bottom line for Congress: If you don't read the bill, you don't vote for it!

Very nice Avatar!

25 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:04:39pm

He who controls the Spice, controls the Universe.

Me?

I'm a free market guy.

The "green" technology can't compete yet, and the Left is getting impatient.

They need to make traditional energy more expensive so that expensive, not cost effective "green" technology will SEEM a cheaper alternative.

Apparently it's easier to RAISE the price of electricity, gas, etc than it is to produce cheap "green" energy.

Social engineering doesn't work.

And only the the white West is allowed to use old energy to develop. Now that the wealthy West is developed, they are telling the non-White non-Western developing world NOT to use the same methods.

You know, like telling to world not to use DDT after we already did?

It's a pattern.

Let the poor Africans use coal for electricity!

26 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:04:53pm

from Scrappleface:

[Link: www.scrappleface.com...]

27 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:05:05pm
28 sngnsgt  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:05:20pm

re: #2 Racer X

107 here in L.A. yesterday.

Help me Obama-won-Kenobi! You're my only Hope!

LOL! I love it, use the schwartz Luke!

29 MrMarble  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:05:42pm

Democrats - you gotta love they way they "help" the little man, oh sorry, person.

Stupid is as Stupid does.

30 baier  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:05:48pm

I have mixed feelings about this bill. I'd like to get off foreign oil and this bill may help, but the methodology is flawed. Basically this bill punishes the most productive businesses in our society to pay for it...not right.

31 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:05:59pm

Pros? I only see cons here. As in Con-gress and con artists.

32 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:06:15pm

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

It's actually "capon trade"--exchanging a functioning society for a society of castrated chickens.

Nothing like a fat Capone with a nice tankard of ale on a hot day I say.

33 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:06:26pm

I beleive that every "green" power plant should be built off the coast of Cape Cod and Hawaii.

34 irongrampa  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:06:31pm

How about everyone will pay more from the ripple effects of this massive tax?

35 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:06:35pm

This bill has generated substantial investments in alternatives? Really? How is that even possible? The bill language was just released a few days ago and Congress didn't even read it, particularly with the 300+ page amendment.

If there's investment in alternative energy, it's because states around the nation jumped on board the bandwagon and have enacted all manner of tax credit for alternative energy, alternative fuels, and r&d for alternative energy (all while the NIMBY and eco-leftists slow down implementation of actual projects that could produce energy, like wind power off Cape Cod). The incentives are the result of reducing taxes and providing tax credits to spur businesses into this area that has to date been speculative at best and economically unfeasible because the costs per kWh remain higher than traditional energy measures.

And there's the whole issue of distributing that new energy into the grid when the same NIMBY eco left doesn't want to build new transmission lines that would carry power from places that have excess to those that don't.

No one knows how much damage this bill will do, but when you've got Warren Buffett acknowledging that this bill is nothing more than a tax on energy that will be passed on to consumers, you should wonder just how bad it's going to be.

It redistributes money, but goods and services will face higher energy costs because producers - energy producers and industry - will have pay more.

Throw in the fact that this creates a whole new derivatives market that is just itching for the next Enron and Freddie/Fannie toxic paper crisis, and you've got to wonder how this does anything like what its supporters claim it will do in protecting the environment or reducing carbon emissions.

This bill is spectacularly bad because it ties both hands of the US economy behind its back all while producers like India and China race ahead and churn out COx and all other manner of harmful emissions without the slightest hesitation.

36 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:06:41pm

I'm much more sanguine about it after realizing that there were chants of
BTU, BTU in the chamber.... now it looks good for the Senate to let it go down as they did Clinton's BTU tax bill in 1993.
Bonus: that the R's rode that one to regain the House in the midterms.....

37 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:07:29pm

re: #24 HoosierHoops

Very nice Avatar!

Calling that a "very nice Avatar" is like saying Happy Holiday on Yom Kippur.

38 Kragar  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:07:38pm

re: #33 Ben Hur

I beleive that every "green" power plant should be built off the coast of Cape Cod and Hawaii.

And spoil the view? Next thing you'll say is we should be putting oil wells off the CA coast!

39 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:08:28pm

re: #19 ZimrielThe popularity of our politicians would go up if only they DID their JOB!
Reading cuts into the cocktail parties I'm sure!

40 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:08:41pm

re: #30 baier

I have mixed feelings about this bill. I'd like to get off foreign oil and this bill may help, but the methodology is flawed. Basically this bill punishes the most productive businesses in our society to pay for it...not right.

As long as foreign oil is less expensive than domestic oil, we will use some amount of foreign oil. It is largely a pipe dream to think that we can be free from the use of foreign oil at any reasonable price.

41 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:08:49pm

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

It's actually "capon trade"--exchanging a functioning society for a society of castrated chickens.

Don't peck me to death with the puns.

42 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:08:49pm

re: #16 Racer X

Crap and Trade will do absolutely nothing, Zero, towards reducing the Global Warmenings. On the flip side it will decimate the American economy by taxing the hell out of energy usage.

How'd you like paying close to $5 a gallon for gas? How does $8 or $9 sound? Get ready for it because in order to make alternative energy cost effective thats what you will have to pay for gas. The left will see to it that you do.

Rickshaws and bicycles, here we come!

43 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:09:12pm
44 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:09:19pm

re: #37 Ben Hur

Calling that a "very nice Avatar" is like saying Happy Holiday on Yom Kippur.

Are you fucking with me Ben?
*wink*

45 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:09:20pm

If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

Yeah, if we do it, they'll just follow us. Maybe.

Here’s the basic idea: by making burning coal, natural gas and other fossil fuels more expensive, the legislation will make renewable energy sources like wind and solar power more attractive.

Why not spend the money on furthering more cost effective solar and wind technologies instead of raising the energy prices for all of us?

46 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:09:28pm

re: #41 MandyManners

Don't peck me to death with the puns.

Chicken!

47 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:10:10pm

re: #46 DaddyG

Chicken!

That one laid an egg.

48 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:10:26pm

re: #47 Mad Al-Jaffee

That one laid an egg.


Did I scratch?

49 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:10:29pm

re: #35 lawhawk

Follow the money.

Who stands to profit from all of these alternative energy solutions?

50 sngnsgt  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:10:51pm

re: #2 Racer X

107 here in L.A. yesterday.

Help me Obama-won-Kenobi! You're my only Hope!

Obama-Wan-Kenobi LOL!

51 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:02pm

re: #45 BigPapa

If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

Yeah, if we do it, they'll just follow us. Maybe.

Here’s the basic idea: by making burning coal, natural gas and other fossil fuels more expensive, the legislation will make renewable energy sources like wind and solar power more attractive.

Why not spend the money on furthering more cost effective solar and wind technologies instead of raising the energy prices for all of us?

Go nuclear with recoverable fuel. That's my opinion. Just wish that people would realize that it's not as dangerous as it used to be.

52 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:04pm

re: #49 Racer X

Follow the money.

Who stands to profit from all of these alternative energy solutions?


The ManBearPig Hunting Club.

53 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:05pm

re: #49 Racer X

Follow the money.

Who stands to profit from all of these alternative energy solutions?

Juice?

54 irongrampa  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:09pm

Pun thread?

Thinl I'll duck outta this one.

55 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:15pm

"Left-leaning environmental groups say the bill doesn’t go nearly far enough to combat climate change, particularly in the next decade. They also aren’t happy that the utilities will receive their carbon permits for free. Many were pushing for 100 percent auctions, with the money refunded to taxpayers or used to support alternative energy R&D."

100% auctions with the money refunded to taxpayers.

I just adore the idea that
Energy company pays big for carbon change (taxes)
Energy company charges big for energy (to consumers)
Consumers get 100% of the carbon change taxes back (after administrative costs of 99.9%)

Can we cut out the middle man?

56 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:16pm

"Green energy" has become a Democrat's nervous tick.

57 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:31pm

re: #46 DaddyG

Chicken!

Now, that made me cock my eyebrow in your direction.

58 MrMarble  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:38pm

Just came across this and I think this is a good enviromental story:

LADY HELPS FIND HOME FOR WOODLAND ANIMAL

59 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:46pm

re: #48 DaddyG

Did I scratch?

The yolk's on you.

60 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:47pm
61 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:11:49pm

re: #54 irongrampa

Pun thread?

Thinl I'll duck outta this one.

You must be in a foul mood.

62 MKelly  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:12:00pm

The only con that is important is that all this is built on a lie. The first and second law of thermodynamics does not allow for "extra heat" called for in the global warming theory. The earth heats the atmosphere therefore the atomsphere cannot heat the earth. The pot does not heat the burner. As the old scifi quote goes "You are a carbon based life form." Yes we are and we need all the CO2 we can get to grow food and expand life.

63 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:12:14pm

re: #54 irongrampa

Pun thread?

Thinl I'll duck outta this one.

I promise not to goosey you.

64 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:12:20pm

re: #41 MandyManners

The Dems are trying to pretend that the Cap n Tax chickenshiite is chicken salad....

65 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:12:32pm

goose goose goose

66 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:12:34pm

re: #49 Racer X

Follow the money.

Who stands to profit from all of these alternative energy solutions?

GE....among others

67 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:12:36pm

re: #63 MandyManners

I promise not to goosey you.

Now that's a fowl pun if I ever heard one.

68 Pass The Moonbaticide  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:12:49pm
Cap and Trade Pros and Cons


Is it a 'Con' that Global Warming is a pile of Hogwash ?

69 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:13:02pm

IIRC, didn't Kyoto exempt "emerging nations" such as China and India? Successive administrations avoided signing on to that one.

So what does this administration do? Gee, guys, let's just go unilateral.

A better name for this is Cap and Bleed.

70 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:13:05pm

re: #64 tradewind

The Dems are trying to pretend that the Cap n Tax chickenshiite is chicken salad....

Buncha' chicken littles.

71 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:13:23pm

re: #67 MrSilverDragon

Now that's a fowl pun if I ever heard one.

Did it ruffle your feathers?

72 Ziggy  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:13:25pm
One major argument in favor of passing the climate bill is that it will make international climate negotiations in Copenhagen later this year easier. If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

Are they kidding? China and India could give a crap about the environment.
Let's not forget the President admitted, during the campaign, that Crap and Trade will necessarily cause energy costs to sky rocket. Also, let's not forget that climate change (formerly global warming, renamed because apparently the climate is NOT warming) is not "settled science"...by a long shot. This is yet another bill that no one can tell you exactly what's in it. I guess we didn't learn from TARP and the Stimulus Bill. Apparently, countries that already instituted Crap and Trade are now backing out of it because of it's effect on the economy. They think we are so stupid. I fear they may be correct.

73 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:13:36pm

It's all about the congressmen featherbedding their nests...

74 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:13:46pm

re: #71 MandyManners

Did it ruffle your feathers?

Fortunately it did not get me down.

75 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:14:15pm

re: #67 MrSilverDragon

Now that's a fowl pun if I ever heard one.

A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.

76 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:14:22pm

re: #45 BigPapa

If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

Yeah, if we do it, they'll just follow us. Maybe.

Here’s the basic idea: by making burning coal, natural gas and other fossil fuels more expensive, the legislation will make renewable energy sources like wind and solar power more attractive.

Why not spend the money on furthering more cost effective solar and wind technologies instead of raising the energy prices for all of us?

Why not spend on nuclear, which can produce more energy with less actual land disturbed for solar collectors, arrays, and wind turbines that can result in ginsu'd migratory birds and which rely on fickle winds that don't always blow when you need them.

A nuclear plant can take up several acres and produce megawatts of power.

To get equivalent power from a wind farm? Hundreds of acres, and the delightful hum of wind turbines.

Yeah, environmentalists love wind, until they hit upon the fact that it disturbs the migratory patterns of wildlife, and they try to kill 'em.

Far from being ecologically sensitive and seeking a balanced approach, many of these eco-groups verge on the neo-Luddite. Inflicting higher energy costs achieves that because fewer people will be able to afford vehicles, transportation, computers, etc., because it will cost ever more to use them and restricts use to the few that can.

77 Neutral President  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:14:45pm

re: #68 Pass The Moonbaticide

Is it a 'Con' that Global Warming is a pile of Hogwash ?

No the pros and cons of this are that Congress has become a pro at conning us.

78 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:14:59pm

re: #62 MKelly

The only con that is important is that all this is built on a lie. The first and second law of thermodynamics does not allow for "extra heat" called for in the global warming theory. The earth heats the atmosphere therefore the atomsphere cannot heat the earth. The pot does not heat the burner. As the old scifi quote goes "You are a carbon based life form." Yes we are and we need all the CO2 we can get to grow food and expand life.

I'm not very well qualified to comment on this, but that never stopped me before ;-)

I'm pretty sure that since the earth is not a closed system, the 2nd law doesn't apply.

79 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:15:10pm

There is a great video on youtube that of course I can't find, of Gore making predictions that in 5 years, this and that will be gone.

The video is from 6-7 years ago.

80 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:15:23pm

re: #74 MrSilverDragon

Fortunately it did not get me down.

Me eider.

81 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:15:31pm

re: #60 DesertSage

The Biggest Economic Mistake Since The Days Of Herbert Hoover!

Tom McClintock gets it.

The City of Truckee, California was about to sign a long-term power contract to get its electricity from a new, EPA-approved coal-fired electricity plant in Utah. AB 32 and companion legislation caused them to abandon that contract. The replacement power they acquired literally doubled their electricity costs.

So when economists warn that we can expect electricity prices to double under the cap and trade bill, I can tell you from bitter experience that in my district, that’s not a future prediction, that is an historical fact.

82 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:16:28pm

re: #79 Ben Hur

There is a great video on youtube that of course I can't find, of Gore making predictions that in 5 years, this and that will be gone.

The video is from 6-7 years ago.

Guess who's gone now!

83 KenJen  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:16:33pm

re: #61 DaddyG

You must be in a foul mood.

re: #71 MandyManners

Did it ruffle your feathers?

Your allowed. It's a free range country.

84 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:16:56pm

We don't need electricity.

We just need to plug everything into Obama's brain.

85 eon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:17:08pm

re: #9 DesertSage

I want to know why the EPA suppressed a report skeptical of Global Warming?

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Anybody remember when the Bush administration's EPA was accused of suppressing pro- AGW hypothesis papers? It seems that the people who were most stridently insisting they were being "silenced" (notably Dr. James Hansen) had no trouble getting published- and they certainly weren't getting memos to "redo grant application lists"- or else- as the gentleman who headed up this study did.

Like the rest of Cap N' Trade, this has the unmistakable ambiance' of a Soviet-type "show trial"- "Verdict first, trial later".

Except that this time, it's Western technological civilization as a whole that is in the dock, and the American people in particular who will end up in "internal exile".

If we're lucky.

cheers

eon

86 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:17:19pm

re: #83 KenJen

Today you lizards remind me of gizzards.

87 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:17:24pm

re: #72 Ziggy

Are they kidding? China and India could give a crap about the environment.
Let's not forget the President admitted, during the campaign, that Crap and Trade will necessarily cause energy costs to sky rocket. Also, let's not forget that climate change (formerly global warming, renamed because apparently the climate is NOT warming) is not "settled science"...by a long shot. This is yet another bill that no one can tell you exactly what's in it. I guess we didn't learn from TARP and the Stimulus Bill. Apparently, countries that already instituted Crap and Trade are now backing out of it because of it's effect on the economy. They think we are so stupid. I fear they may be correct.


Oh, congress learned a lot from TARP and the Stimulus Bill...... don't read it, claim it's an emergency, and pass it. More government control without even straining..... more power for congress.

88 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:17:26pm

re: #51 MrSilverDragon

Go nuclear with recoverable fuel. That's my opinion. Just wish that people would realize that it's not as dangerous as it used to be.

Nuclear is very clean, but it has it's 'ick factor' with the un-educated.

89 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:17:38pm

re: #60 DesertSage

The Biggest Economic Mistake Since The Days Of Herbert Hoover!

Excellent article - should be required reading.

Thanks for posting that.

90 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:17:44pm

re: #70 MandyManners

Buncha' chicken littles.

The Republican opposition is just as guilty, if not more so. I haven't really been following the cap and trade story mostly because of all the doomsday predictions from Republicans which probably aren't true. They did the same thing with TARP. It might destroy the country but probably not.

91 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:18:04pm

re: #76 lawhawk

Since China that cares so little for the environment of its own country that it allows poison chemicals to pollute the manufacture of toys, baby formula, and pet food, with little response until foreign trade is affected, what do you think their response would be to 'green ' guidelines?
Raff out Roud.

92 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:18:38pm

re: #83 KenJen

Your allowed. It's a free range country.

Only until the tax man gobbles it up.

93 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:19:07pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

You don't think TARP has taken a toll?
It's really early yet.

94 kansas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:19:07pm

I can tell you one thing, and make no mistake, this is a jobs bill. Jobs, jobs, jobs.////

95 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:19:08pm

re: #60 DesertSage

The Biggest Economic Mistake Since The Days Of Herbert Hoover!


The money quote:

M. Speaker, this is deadly serious stuff. It transcends ideology and politics. This House has just made the biggest economic mistake since the days of Herbert Hoover.

If this measure becomes law, two things are certain.

First, our planet will continue to warm and cool as it has been doing for billions of years.

Second: Congress will have delivered a staggering blow to our nation’s economy at precisely that moment when that economy was the most vulnerable.

96 JustABill  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:19:27pm

The impact of this bill will vary greatly depending on how many offsets are given out and to whom. Once the bill is passed, the spotlight will drift away and Congress/Bureaucrats will be able to adjust it more or less at a whim. In other words, govt gets to pick winners and losers.

This is the ultimate camels nose under the tent legislation. Businesses get ready to increase your "donations" to political candidates...

97 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:19:40pm

re: #76 lawhawk

Amen! Nuclear power is an obvious solution. As far as the neo-Luddites go, I'm reminded of a column last year by Joe Klein that slammed air-conditioning.

98 KenJen  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:19:45pm

re: #92 MandyManners

Only until the tax man gobbles it up.

We need a tax cutlet.

99 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:19:50pm

re: #92 MandyManners

So wattle we do about it?

100 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:20:05pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

The Republican opposition is just as guilty, if not more so. I haven't really been following the cap and trade story mostly because of all the doomsday predictions from Republicans which probably aren't true. They did the same thing with TARP. It might destroy the country but probably not.

The long-term damage is not predictable but, No. 81 gives me great pause.

101 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:20:18pm

re: #81 Racer X
I believe the power plant in question is planed for 3 miles from where I sit!
Inviro's have it so tied it may never happen!

102 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:20:29pm

re: #94 kansas

I can tell you one thing, and make no mistake, this is a jobs bill. Jobs, jobs, jobs.////

Nancy? Is that you?

103 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:20:51pm

Obama's own energy czar hasn't even bothered to read the cap and trade bill.

Why would she It's not like anyone pays the price for that except the constituents who keep sending the jokers back to Congress that make these stupid decisions day after day because they somehow manage to bring home the bacon come election time.

When the House version included placeholders because the 300 page amendment hadn't been integrated into the full markup, and they voted for this bill in any event, it shows just how rigged the process is - the Democrats wanted this bill passed, and they had the help of 8 GOPers.

104 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:21:18pm
105 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:21:19pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

The Republican opposition is just as guilty, if not more so. I haven't really been following the cap and trade story mostly because of all the doomsday predictions from Republicans which probably aren't true. They did the same thing with TARP. It might destroy the country but probably not.

You forgot to add that the Republicans are insane.

106 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:21:27pm

I'm no expert on this issue, but anybody who could write and believes:

"One major argument in favor of passing the climate bill is that it will make international climate negotiations in Copenhagen later this year easier. If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own."

Obviously has major biases of his own and major lapses in judgment and it puts the value of the whole article into question.

107 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:21:33pm

re: #89 Racer X

Excellent article - should be required reading.

Thanks for posting that.

I wonder what CA would look like today if McClintock would have won the Governorship instead of Schwarzenegger?

I'm sure we'd be in a lot better position right now.

108 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:21:58pm

re: #98 KenJen

We need a tax cutlet.

I doubt we'll see any bread.

109 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:22:07pm

I didn't find the article really said anything other than "maybe it will be good, maybe not", with no real evidence.
I'd like to see a good analysis of the bill, but I didn't expect anyone could have produced one in only a few days.
Which really means that there should have been no vote until there was time for the reps to read it, or at least their staffs.

I guess this is our new model for a republic - we have Senators and Representatives who vote the way they're told, all to have an appearance of a republic, but it is really bureaucrats behind the scenes that control it.

Am I getting too cynical?

110 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:22:11pm

The more I read, the more I hear, the scarder I get. Every thing hinges on finding a better energy source then fossil fuels. Unfortunately no one has come up with a good alternative. Solar is marginal, wind power is fraught with unpredictability, ethanols cause more use of fossil fuels in many areas besides fuel consumption. Carbon trading just doesn't pass the smell test for me at all.

111 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:22:13pm

re: #99 tradewind

So wattle we do about it?

Beats the cluck outta' me.

112 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:22:49pm

I wonder how many in congress didn't read this bill. Nobody read the main Stimulus bill either, but goldammit we had to pass it or we were going to die! Nucking Futs.

113 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:22:53pm

re: #91 tradewind

Heck, here's the photo of the day courtesy of that fantastic infrastructure we heard Obama talking about before he was elected. This apartment building just keeled over on its side as though it wasn't properly secured to the ground.

They keep building, without regard for life or limb. They keep building coal fired power plants and the air is just as bad now as it has ever been over there even after the factory shutdowns during the leadup to the Beijing Olympics.

114 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:22:56pm

re: #95 Racer X


Second: Congress will have delivered a staggering blow to our nation’s economy at precisely that moment when that economy was the most vulnerable.

That's the point.

Take advantage of a crisis (yet again).

They have actually added Global Warming to their list of "if we don't fix this the world is going to end tomorrow" list.

115 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:23:16pm
If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

Or they could laugh their asses off at us. What incentive do they have to curb their emissions? What consequences do they face if they don't?

My guess is none and none. We're shooting ourselves in the foot in the hopes others will too.

116 Zimriel  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:23:19pm

re: #62 MKelly

The only con that is important is that all this is built on a lie. The first and second law of thermodynamics does not allow for "extra heat" called for in the global warming theory. The earth heats the atmosphere therefore the atomsphere cannot heat the earth. The pot does not heat the burner. As the old scifi quote goes "You are a carbon based life form." Yes we are and we need all the CO2 we can get to grow food and expand life.

Is this a moby? Or does this poster get its talking points from the same creationist sites which claim that thermodynamics invalidates evolution?

117 deermusic  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:23:23pm

In an interview this morning, Senator Kyle (R-AZ) said he thought the bill could be defeated in the Senate. We'll see...

118 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:23:39pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

The Republican opposition is just as guilty, if not more so. I haven't really been following the cap and trade story mostly because of all the doomsday predictions from Republicans which probably aren't true. They did the same thing with TARP. It might destroy the country but probably not.

Warren Buffet is a Republican?

119 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:23:40pm

re: #93 tradewind

You don't think TARP has taken a toll?
It's really early yet.

TARP worked and it saved our economy. Opposing it was insanity.

120 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:23:41pm

re: #112 BigPapa

I wonder how many in congress didn't read this bill. Nobody read the main Stimulus bill either, but goldammit we had to pass it or we were going to die! Nucking Futs.

Even if someone did read the bill before the day of the vote, about 300 pages of amendments were added that morning.

121 MPH  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:23:44pm

The author of this article has no understanding of the basic premise of opportunity cost.

122 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:24:01pm

re: #106 Nevergiveup

Yes, that statement caught my eye too.

123 eon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:24:03pm

re: #42 capitalist piglet

Rickshaws and bicycles, here we come!

GMTA.

I was struck by the way that "carbon credits" will be "auctioned", and was weondering if we might not end up with a "market" in same, rather like the "market" in "frozen" and "unfrozen" assets in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged- in which anyone with the right connections (i.e., to those "businessmen whose only asset was a nebulous quality called 'friendship'") could buy "frozen' businesses, etc., which would miraculously become "unfrozen"- once the proper emoluments had been paid to those in the government.

In the end, we could have an economy remarkably like that of Bangladesh. Where a small percentage of the population (all high government officials) control most of the country's liquid assets- and, as P.J. O'Rourke observed, the rest of the country's main business seems to be giving each other rickshaw rides.

cheers

eon

124 Zimriel  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:24:32pm

re: #110 BlueCanuck

The more I read, the more I hear, the scarder I get. Every thing hinges on finding a better energy source then fossil fuels. Unfortunately no one has come up with a good alternative. Solar is marginal, wind power is fraught with unpredictability, ethanols cause more use of fossil fuels in many areas besides fuel consumption. Carbon trading just doesn't pass the smell test for me at all.

You forgot one. Try googling "pebble bed"...

125 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:24:36pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

TARP worked and it saved our economy. Opposing it was insanity.

And the evidence for that statement is what, where, and how?

126 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:24:51pm

re: #84 Ben Hur

We don't need electricity.

We just need to plug everything into Obama's brain.

Sure, if we want a lot of power outages.

127 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:24:51pm

Don't egg these people on. It's the 4th soon, and we'll all need some Catch-a-Tory

128 MandyManners  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:24:57pm

ggiag

129 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:24:58pm

'Never let a crisis go to waste"

130 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:25:11pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

TARP worked and it saved our economy. Opposing it was insanity.

It time to put down the bong, Killgore.

131 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:25:15pm

re: #30 baier

I have mixed feelings about this bill. I'd like to get off foreign oil and this bill may help, but the methodology is flawed. Basically this bill punishes the most productive businesses in our society CONSUMERS to pay for it...not right.

Nope. Businesses pass on the costs to their customers all the way down the line. It's a simple fact that always escapes Democrats and other business-bashing groups.

132 Ziggy  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:25:22pm

re: #87 eschew_obfuscation

Oh, congress learned a lot from TARP and the Stimulus Bill...... don't read it, claim it's an emergency, and pass it. More government control without even straining..... more power for congress.

You got that right. As I said, I fear we (collective "we" excluding lizard community) may be as stupid as they think.

133 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:25:28pm

re: #113 lawhawk
Makes ya wanna buy Chinese eh?

134 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:25:32pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

TARP may have saved the economy from the initial credit market collapse. However, all the additional spending is going to do what TARP didn't, because of higher inflation and because our deficit has gone through the roof.

135 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:25:54pm

re: #113 lawhawk

And they let their manufacturers take whatever shortcuts via chemicals they want to make foodstuffs and other products.... notably toys... cheaper, more shelf- stable, faster.
Usually, that means there's something toxic involved.

136 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:26:06pm

re: #130 DesertSage

It time to put down the bong, Killgore.

Or pick it up depending on the Circumstances?

137 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:26:16pm

If the Egg of Power can't save us, I don't know what will.

138 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:26:42pm

re: #33 Ben Hur

I beleive that every "green" power plant should be built off the coast of Cape Cod and Hawaii.

harness the tsunami and the hurricane.

Better yet, its gvmt, put the hurrican power harnesser in northeastern Wyoming.

139 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:26:44pm
140 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:26:45pm

re: #130 DesertSage

It time to put down the bong, Killgore.


Please don't blame the Weed.

141 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:26:49pm

re: #130 DesertSage

It time to put down the bong, Killgore.

Au contraire, now seems the perfect time to do so, after all it seems congress just picked one up.

142 saberry0530  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:27:01pm

re: #118 lawhawk

Warren Buffet is a Republican?

IF the Money is right!

143 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:27:10pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

TARP worked and it saved our economy. Opposing it was insanity.

Perhaps, but tripling down on the deficit was madness.

144 englishprof  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:27:26pm

The big problem with the bill--and with the left's approach to energy in general--is the failure to fast-track nuclear energy expansion. Modern nuclear plants are safe, the energy they produce is economical, and the emissions are harmless (although they do use some water). The technique of reprocessing almost eliminates waste--we could be storing all the nuclear waste from the nation in an area the size of a football field. Compare that to the ecological impact of miles and miles of concrete pads and new roads associated with wind farms. Besides, nuclear plants can be built by cities, and they generate electricity all the time. Wind farms generally require accompanying huge transmission lines, and they often aren't generating much at all during the night.

145 Bear  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:27:36pm

It seams as if all the present forms of energy production have some adverse environmental impact. Nuclear with the waste production and the mining impact for getting the required material. Wind with the killing of birds and noise factor. Solar with the shading of the ground causing disruption of the plant life due to shade. Hydro with all the destruction of fish habitat. And on and on.

146 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:27:41pm
147 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:27:45pm

re: #136 Nevergiveup

Or pick it up depending on the Circumstances?

or pass it around...

148 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:27:53pm

re: #143 Racer X

Perhaps, but tripling down on the deficit was madness.

Never works for me in Atlantic City either. Sigh.

149 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:27:58pm
150 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:28:11pm

re: #97 MrPaulRevere

Amen! Nuclear power is an obvious solution. As far as the neo-Luddites go, I'm reminded of a column last year by Joe Klein that slammed air-conditioning.

Kill Your Air Conditioner by Joe Klein [Link: www.time.com...] Money quote "air-conditioning is bad for the planet, and for national security, and for our balance-of-payments deficit."

151 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:28:17pm

re: #125 Nevergiveup

Without it our financial infrastructure would be in ruins. It worked, the banks are starting to pay back. Credit markets haven't loosened up enough yet but it stabalized the economy that was in free fall after the collapse of Leehman Bros.

152 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:28:27pm

The Taking
Away
Real
Prosperity bill was the biggest slush fund in American history...until the Stimulus bill, that is.

153 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:28:47pm
154 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:28:47pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

The Republican opposition is just as guilty, if not more so. I haven't really been following the cap and trade story mostly because of all the doomsday predictions from Republicans which probably aren't true. They did the same thing with TARP. It might destroy the country but probably not.

The doomsday predictions aren't just true, but the actual results are probably going to be worse than the current predictions. We're preparing to cripple our economy for a theory (AGW) that holds about as much water as Young Earth Creationism. If this passes, it is an absolute certainty that we are going to do harm to our economy that won't be undone for two generations. Here's a clue: We aren't yet over the damage that Jimmy Carter did. Fortunately, Cap-and-Trade has a good chance of dying in the Senate.

As for TARP, the results have been pretty horrific, if you know anything about the state of the banking industry. Same (not-so) brilliant Washington minds at work here.

155 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:29:01pm

re: #63 MandyManners

I promise not to goosey you.

take a gander at a previous quackmire thread?

156 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:29:35pm

re: #143 Racer X

Perhaps, but tripling down on the deficit was madness.

Agreed. We'd probably be running a deficit now anyways but Obama's budget is just crazy.

157 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:29:40pm

re: #7 HoosierHoops

If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.
I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about China instituting greenhouse curbs...

Game theory says it is unlikely that china or india will institute curbs. Only the US liberal pols are economically suicidal.

158 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:29:42pm

re: #124 Zimriel

You forgot one. Try googling "pebble bed"...

Will that fit in my car safely? I have done some reading on pebble beds. Nice concept. In fact there all sorts of mini reactors out there just waiting to be built and put into use. Can you just imagine the screaming if you put one in your backyard?

159 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:29:44pm

re: #129 Racer X

'Never let a crisis go to waste"


and remember that if there is no crisis, you can always create one.

160 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:29:55pm

re: #147 experiencedtraveller

or pass it around...

Well see there ya got a problem. If you pass it around you have to pay a sales tax, or a gift tax. And if you receive it , you have to pay a use tax. And if it makes you more attractive, you have to pay a cosmetic tax. Under the Democrats, just passing it around is not so easy.

161 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:30:32pm
One major argument in favor of passing the climate bill is that it will make international climate negotiations in Copenhagen later this year easier. If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

Operative word being could. IIRC the Kyoto Ptotocol exempts developing countries such as China, India, and Brazil from its binding emissions reductions - those same countries are spewing emissions.

162 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:30:33pm

re: #140 Ben Hur

Please don't blame the Weed.

Oh, I'm not blaming the weed per se. I'm one of the biggest proponents of legalizing cannabis.....but that's a whole other topic.

:')

163 Abdul Abulbul Amir  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:30:37pm

This is Smoot-Hawley for the 21st century.

164 turn  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:30:39pm

re: #124 Zimriel

ding, exactly. Intrinsically safe and readily scalable. It can be implemented on a small regional basis thereby cutting down on transmission losses. South Africa leads in this technology, but it was invented by the Germans.

165 harpsicon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:30:48pm

A rare posting for me --

When at the Seattle airport last year I saw a display ad of a cute little blonde girl up to her shoulders in water, that said basically "Is this what you stupid people ignoring AGW want?"

I was pretty offended at such exaggerated hype; nobody currently on the planet will be alive when the ocean might (if the worst predictions are true) get that high in about 900 years.

Everybody has to go read "The Skeptical Environmentalist" by Bjorn Lonborg. He started out being hissed off at some conservative that he had read on the topic of AGW, and said to himself, since I'm a statistics professor (in Denmark) I can go prove from the data that this guy is all wet (sorry...).

What he discovered is that the "greens" are full of frightening, cherry-picked data designed to scare people. While there may well be an issue, his question is - HOW CAN WE BEST USE THE LIMITED ASSETS WE HAVE TO IMPROVE THE EARTH'S ECOLOGY AND SOLVE THE PROBLEMS AFFLICTING THE WORLD'S POOR?

His answers are very thoughtful, and essentially, fighting global warming comes in a distant last, practically, to things like providing clean water to all people, etc.

Especially since the Green response to global cooling 30 years ago was the same (consume less, use less carbon-based fuels, etc) it's very hard for me to believe that there's anything to this scientifically. I know as little as anybody else - but reading this book of Lonborg's will I believe at least point people in the right direction.

166 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:30:54pm

re: #139 buzzsawmonkey

There's been a lot of talk about how Congress voted on this bill "without reading it."

Let me point out that merely reading this bill--or any bill--means nothing; that is barely the threshold of the beginning. Once one reads a bill, one has to think about it--think what the provisions in it will actually do, as distinct from what it is promised they will do, and think about what the unintended consequences will be.

I thought that's what staffers were supposed to do, besides get them coffee. I don't expect a congressperson to read every line of every bill, but to understand what the bill does. Take 3 or 4 people to read it, summarize, then meet to discuss and form the opinion.

But I guess that's asking too much.

167 AZDave  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:30:57pm

re: #2 Racer X

107 here in L.A. yesterday.

Help me Obama-won-Kenobi! You're my only Hope!

111 here in Phoenix yesterday.

168 J.D.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:31:00pm
One major argument in favor of passing the climate bill is that it will make international climate negotiations in Copenhagen later this year easier. If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

169 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:31:06pm

re: #158 BlueCanuck

Will that fit in my car safely? I have done some reading on pebble beds. Nice concept. In fact there all sorts of mini reactors out there just waiting to be built and put into use. Can you just imagine the screaming if you put one in your backyard?

Do it in the middle of the night when everyone is sleeping... no one would be the wiser!

/wouldn't mind having my own nuclear reactor

170 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:31:46pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Without it our financial infrastructure would be in ruins. It worked, the banks are starting to pay back. Credit markets haven't loosened up enough yet but it stabalized the economy that was in free fall after the collapse of Leehman Bros.

You can't prove that. it's like proving a negative. And what the Gov did or did not do for the Banks and Financial institutions is only a fraction of what went on. Obama and the Democrats have used this "crisis" to fund all their wet dreams and dam near bankrupt this country.

171 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:31:52pm

re: #9 DesertSage

I want to know why the EPA suppressed a report skeptical of Global Warming?

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

That straw man was rolled out before the house vote. The guy at the EPA was a bean counter, not evolved with the science.

link

172 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:31:55pm

re: #150 MrPaulRevere

Kill Your Air Conditioner by Joe Klein [Link: www.time.com...] Money quote "air-conditioning is bad for the planet, and for national security, and for our balance-of-payments deficit."

Yeah, Mr Klein, I don't like to make love when it's hot and sticky, and I bet most women don't either, so maybe we should start a movement to give up air conditioners, and I''ll be happy to give you all the credit.
"The End of Love as We Know It."

Should make you very popular Mr. Klein..../s

173 AZDave  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:33:05pm

re: #8 tradewind

Sorry, but anyone who is Pro Cap 'n Tax is trying to Con us.

If Obama and the Dems want it, you know we're being conned!

174 samsgran1948  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:33:11pm

re: #49 Racer X

Follow the money.

Who stands to profit from all of these alternative energy solutions?

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Put Racer X's comment together with #10 by Researchok:

Al Gore has made up to $100 million to date on cap and trade sleight of hand.

That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in how fair the process and process really is.

It's all about the money. It's one of the biggest rackets in the world right now: Let's get all the "greenies" all hysterical, and Al Gore and his cohorts get filthy, stinking rich.

175 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:33:38pm

re: #133 reloadingisnotahobby

Makes ya wanna buy Chinese eh?

You won't have a choice; American industry won't be able to compete.
Especially since the shipping to the US will also be exempt from cap and trade, since China owns most of it.
Then it will get to the US, and be very expensive after its ricksaw ride across the US, because trains will be too expensive.

176 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:33:48pm

re: #150 MrPaulRevere

Maybe Joe would change his mind after he spent a few days in my home town at the top of the Delta.........
Heat index only 102 today, so we've cooled off a bit.

177 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:33:51pm

re: #109 Kosh's Shadow

...

I guess this is our new model for a republic - we have Senators and Representatives who vote the way they're told, all to have an appearance of a republic, but it is really bureaucrats behind the scenes that control it.

Am I getting too cynical?

No you're not too cynical. That's the way things work. And the bureaucrats doing the implementing are overwhelmingly left leaning.

178 jorline  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:33:52pm

Congressman, did you read the bill?

No...my dog ate my homework!

179 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:33:53pm

Jor-el was right!

180 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:33:59pm

re: #166 BigPapa

I thought that's what staffers were supposed to do, besides get them coffee. I don't expect a congressperson to read every line of every bill, but to understand what the bill does. Take 3 or 4 people to read it, summarize, then meet to discuss and form the opinion.

But I guess that's asking too much.

Every staff should have a conservative and a liberal. The congresskritter could then see the bill from both sides.

181 J.D.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:34:24pm

re: #174 samsgran1948

It's all about the money. It's one of the biggest rackets in the world right now: Let's get all the "greenies" all hysterical, and Al Gore and his cohorts get filthy, stinking richer.

Someone might even win a Nobel.

182 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:34:32pm

re: #173 AZDave

If Obama and the Dems want it, you know we're being conned!

Several NJ Republicans voted for this and guess who has major headquarters here in NJ?

GE!

183 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:34:36pm

re: #173 AZDave

The Dems may have just conned themselves, if 1993 repeats itself.
Fingers crossed.

184 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:34:42pm

Gore-el.

185 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:34:44pm

re: #60 DesertSage

The Biggest Economic Mistake Since The Days Of Herbert Hoover!

Let’s ignore for the moment the fact that the planet’s climate is constantly changing and that long term global warming has been going on since the last ice age. Let’s ignore the fact that within recorded history we know of periods when the earth’s climate has been much warmer than it is today and others when it has been much cooler. Let’s ignore the thousands of climate scientists and meteorologists who have concluded that human-produced greenhouse gases are a negligible factor in global warming or climate change./blockquote>

Tom McClintock always gets it. The man is spot-on sound in his economics. Sad thing for California is that economics is not sexy enough, so his politics don't get heard by enough people.

186 spudly  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:34:47pm

It's predicated on the assumption that Anthropogenic Global Warming is:

1. Real, and significant. It's likely that humans play some role, but exactly how much?

2. Can actually be mitigated, realistically.

So the human contribution needs to be significant, AND it has to be realistic to stop it. If it cannot be stopped/mitigated, then spending anything to try instead of future spending to deal with the reality is entirely wasted.

Some of the alarmists already suggest that to stop it, we need to massively (like 90%+) reduce emissions in a short period, or see a tipping point. Since far less ambitious reductions have universally failed, then if they are right, AGW is a foregone conclusion, we should spend on more efficient air con, better sunscreens, picking farm land in Alaska, etc.

I'd be less skeptical if climate science didn't require FOI suits to get code published. Read [Link: www.climateaudit.org...] for a sense of how opaque these guys are. Science the drives public policy needs to be PUBLIC. That means the code they use to generate their predictions.

187 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:35:01pm

re: #171 avanti

That straw man was rolled out before the house vote. The guy at the EPA was a bean counter, not evolved with the science.

link

And how many 'bean counters' have the Lefties rolled out to prove their non-existent Global Warming....and to get their stupid bill passed?

? ? ?

188 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:35:29pm

re: #176 tradewind

You don't get it, obviously. Joe Klein is a morally superior being because he does not use air-conditioning //

189 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:35:31pm

If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

If the U.S. unilaterally disarmed (i.e. gave up its nuclear weapons), China, Iran, North Korea, India, Pakistan, blah blah could follow suit.

Or, they could blow the shit out of us.

If the U.S. withdrew its forces from Afghanistan, the Taliban could follow by enacting more democratic policies and embracing human rights.

Or, they could slaughter everyone they even thought wasn't toeing the party line.

If a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass every time it tried to fly.

190 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:35:33pm

re: #182 DistantThunder

Several NJ Republicans voted for this and guess who has major headquarters here in NJ?

GE!

Not ConEd?

191 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:35:33pm

re: #172 DistantThunder

Yeah, Mr Klein, I don't like to make love when it's hot and sticky, and I bet most women don't either, so maybe we should start a movement to give up air conditioners, and I''ll be happy to give you all the credit.
"The End of Love as We Know It."

Should make you very popular Mr. Klein..../s

From the musical Kiss Me Kate (iirc)
According to the Kinsey report
Every average man you know
Much prefers to play his favorite sport
When the temperature is low
But when the thermometer goes way up
And the temperature is sizzling hot
Mr. Adam for his madam is not-
And it's too, too, too damn hot

192 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:35:54pm

re: #165 harpsicon

Thanks. I'll put "The Skeptical Environmentalist" by Bjorn Lonborg on the reading list.

193 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:35:57pm

We can't forget it was the Fearless One who promised to bankrupt the coal industry. Think this bill could accomplish that?

194 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:36:10pm

re: #165 harpsicon

There was a good interview with Lonborg in reason I think last year. You can probably find it on their website.

195 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:36:46pm

re: #159 Eowyn2

and remember that if there is no crisis, you can always create one.

This is one reason, IMHO, that congress is so irresponsible in the legislation that it passes. If it creates a new crisis, the solution will be more legislation (read control).

196 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:37:34pm

re: #188 MrPaulRevere

Yeah... it's called embracing his inner BO. Speaking of...
Wonder how TOTUS would take to that suggestion for the WH?

197 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:37:39pm

re: #193 ladycatnip

We can't forget it was the Fearless One who promised to bankrupt the coal industry. Think this bill could accomplish that?

And he still got the votes of those coal producing states. Some people are just beyond help.
Sheesh.

198 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:38:13pm

re: #195 eschew_obfuscation

This is one reason, IMHO, that congress is so irresponsible in the legislation that it passes. If it creates a new crisis, the solution will be more legislation (read control).



Government
If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions.

199 CommonCents  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:38:13pm

Here's a peak at the winners and losers in the bill from the AP Energy writer. This line makes me sick.

Petroleum companies also may try to import more of their refined gas and heating oil from countries with no carbon law, which will raise costs.


This is the change we've all been waiting for. More imports from despots and dictators. This ties in nicely with Hillary flying the Hugo Chavez flag on Honduras.

200 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:38:19pm

22:15 Israel`s UN envoy: Settlement dispute won`t stop Obama support for Israel (Reuters)

Dream on!

201 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:39:03pm

I don't understand why the Republicans don't hire a spokesman to give official news from the party. Someone who will attract lots of media attention, and can give press conferences and take questions. Could we lure Brit Hume? Or Megan Kelly?

202 Kragar  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:39:09pm

re: #159 Eowyn2

and remember that if there is no crisis, you can always create one.

If I were an aging big name celebrity, I would be very very careful right now.

203 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:39:14pm

A Super Inconvenient Truth

204 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:39:18pm

o has acknowledged while campaigning that energy prices would increase greatly.
he said< "under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily SKY ROCKET.'

biden says we have to be "patriotic and pay more taxes."
o reminds us that we have to eat less, keep our thermostat down, don't use the a.c., drive an o-mobile.

what bull shit.
this bill is floated on the gw hysteria. it is not abt. 'saving the environment' it is a massive tax hike that will vastly expand the fed gov't's power over our economy. killing jobs, increasing the price on everything and making us miserable.
and it will have no effect on gw.
we will suffer so gov't can grow and become more powerful.
just what o wants.

205 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:39:20pm

re: #193 ladycatnip

We can't forget it was the Fearless One who promised to bankrupt the coal industry. Think this bill could accomplish that?

Let's go to the video tape.

206 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:39:42pm

Re Obama-wan-kenobi

How far do you think the Jedi would have gotten with a wind-powered light saber?

207 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:39:47pm
208 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:39:56pm

#195 eschew_obfuscation

This is one reason, IMHO, that congress is so irresponsible in the legislation that it passes. If it creates a new crisis, the solution will be more legislation (read control).

And more legislation/control means more money in their grimy little pockets.

209 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:40:38pm

re: #204 nyc redneck

o reminds us that we have to eat less, keep our thermostat down, don't use the a.c., drive an o-mobile.

Don't forget, inflate your tires! That's going to save the world! Hope! Change!

210 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:40:58pm

re: #150 MrPaulRevere

Kill Your Air Conditioner by Joe Klein [Link: www.time.com...] Money quote "air-conditioning is bad for the planet, and for national security, and for our balance-of-payments deficit."

Joe Kline doesn't need air-conditioning, as he spends August in the Hamptons.

211 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:41:01pm

re: #187 DesertSage

And how many 'bean counters' have the Lefties rolled out to prove their non-existent Global Warming....and to get their stupid bill passed?

? ? ?

To the best of my knowledge, it's climatologists that study climate change not economists. It's like a accountant from NASA saying looking for water on Mars is a waste of time. The guy might have some valid input on the costs, but his opinion on the science is just his opinion, not data based.
Had the EPA ignored e-mails from scientist in the field, I'd be suspect.

212 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:41:20pm

re: #209 Mad Al-Jaffee

Don't forget, inflate your tires! That's going to save the world! Hope! Change!

Where is my free Tire gauge?

213 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:41:27pm

re: #173 AZDave

Maybe this is an elaborate red herring from the magificent bastard! Karl.
He's read the '93 playbook and decided there's nothing new under he sun, let them dig themselves right outta office.

214 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:41:44pm

re: #188 MrPaulRevere

You don't get it, obviously. Joe Klein is a morally superior being because he does not use air-conditioning //

A person died today in Houston because his air conditioner went out (record heat there this week). I wonder how many deaths Joe is willing to take responsibility for?

215 AZDave  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:41:49pm

re: #31 Honorary Yooper

Pros? I only see cons here. As in Con-gress and con artists.

Right on! How do you spell A-l G-o-r-e?

216 jorline  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:41:59pm

PBO, the socialist in Hungary get it.

Hungary passes 2010 tax law, key test for govt

Hungary's minority Socialist government passed a crucial test on Monday when parliament approved key 2010 tax changes to help the country recover from its worst recession in almost two decades.

The tax law, which will cut personal income taxes and social contributions paid by employers to the government, was passed with 211 votes and 152 votes against, with backing from the Socialists' former coalition allies, the Free Democrats.

Parliament also passed a law which will provide for a "wealth tax" on real estate and luxury items next year.

The government will cut personal income tax rates and raise the lower income bracket to ensure that average incomes are taxed at a 17 percent rate, and will reduce the employment tax to encourage employers to save and create jobs.

217 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:42:03pm

Government reminds me of the doctors who load their patient up with pills, and each new pill creates new adverse symptoms so they prescribe more pills, until the poor creature dies. Hey, Michael Jackson could be the poster child for regulatory excess.

218 semper gumbi  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:42:16pm

re: #171 avanti

I'll see your link and raise you

"Carbongate"

Calling into question the credentials of an author is the modis operandi of the "AGW world is going to end crowd". Heck, the biggest proponent of AGW, Dr. James Hansen, isn't a climate scientist either. I guess that means he isn't qualified to speak in this subject - and his AGQ theory is all a bunch of hot air?

219 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:42:27pm
220 Spartacus50  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:42:41pm

BULLSHIT. Or in the words of Boehner, a "pile of shit". They can polish this turd anyway they like but it will do nothing but douse any remaining embers of our dying economy.

221 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:42:55pm

re: #214 eschew_obfuscation

A person died today in Houston because his air conditioner went out (record heat there this week). I wonder how many deaths Joe is willing to take responsibility for?

Liberal saying - or progressive: People are a cancer on the earth. So win-win with that.

222 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:42:58pm

re: #150 MrPaulRevere

Kill Your Air Conditioner by Joe Klein [Link: www.time.com...] Money quote "air-conditioning is bad for the planet, and for national security, and for our balance-of-payments deficit."


Why does Joe Klein hate French people?

223 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:43:00pm

re: #211 avanti

To the best of my knowledge, it's climatologists that study climate change not economists. It's like a accountant from NASA saying looking for water on Mars is a waste of time. The guy might have some valid input on the costs, but his opinion on the science is just his opinion not data based.
Had the EPA ignored e-mails from scientist in the field, I'd be suspect.

Where did AlGore get is science degree?

224 S'latch  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:43:38pm

"China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own." If only they were as ignorant and gullible as we in the U.S. Now, let us all use our next paycheck to buy lottery tickets.

225 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:43:42pm

Has anyone noticed that if you put Nancy Pelosi in a black hooded robe, she'd look just like Emperor Palpatine?

226 samsgran1948  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:43:45pm
Far from being ecologically sensitive and seeking a balanced approach, many of these eco-groups verge on the neo-Luddite. Inflicting higher energy costs achieves that because fewer people will be able to afford vehicles, transportation, computers, etc., because it will cost ever more to use them and restricts use to the few that can.

A few years back, Dr. Thomas Sowell made close to the same point, using the National Parks as his focus. By creating rules that exclude the less financially well off in the name of "conservation", the elites get to enjoy our national parks undisturbed by the hoi-poloi. The same with building codes and anti-sprawl laws. By keeping the population density in certain desireable areas at an artificial low with "anti-sprawl" laws and city planning, the cost of existing property spirals upwards, keeping the current land owners fat, happy and rich, and excluding the great unwashed.

227 shug  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:43:56pm

I'd like to put a cap on Congress and trade them to China

228 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:44:00pm

re: #222 Ben Hur

Why does Joe Klein hate French people?

Because they gave him a Klein bottle as a gift and he doesn't know how to get the water out.

/yes, that makes no sense.

229 tradewind  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:44:00pm

re: #214 eschew_obfuscation

When the French decided to go en masse vacances in August a few years ago and leave their elderly to the heat sans a/c, the irony was that the only place the elderly could take refuge from the awful heat that killed hundred of them was in McDonalds. The hated Mickey D's offered ice water and cool air, and they were the only place in town to get it for free.

230 Killian Bundy  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:44:17pm
Right-wing groups

Left-leaning environmental groups

/hmmm . . .

231 KenJen  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:44:33pm

re: #21 a marine mom

Bottom line for Congress: If you don't read the bill, you don't vote for it!

Yes. Yes.Yes. As I've said before...All Senators should be given a quiz of say ten questions concerning the bill. I you get one answer wrong you don't get to vote on it.

232 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:44:35pm

re: #225 Mikey_Dallas

That's really cruel - don't be so mean to Emperor Palpatine!

233 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:44:36pm

re: #228 MrSilverDragon

Because they gave him a Klein bottle as a gift and he doesn't know how to get the water out.

/yes, that makes no sense.

LOL

234 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:44:39pm

re: #214 eschew_obfuscation

A person died today in Houston because his air conditioner went out (record heat there this week). I wonder how many deaths Joe is willing to take responsibility for?


More French probably die every summer from lack of ac than Palis from Israelis.

Weird analogy.

But I like it.

Cause, well you know.

235 shug  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:44:56pm

No warming for the last 15 years
while
CO2 levels continue to rise

236 shug  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:45:11pm

re: #230 Killian Bundy

/hmmm . . .

I just noticed that.....

237 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:45:25pm

re: #231 KenJen

Yes. Yes.Yes. As I've said before...All Senators should be given a quiz of say ten questions concerning the bill. I you get one answer wrong you don't get to vote on it.

So when do we hear the Republican committee commercials on how Lazy and Unprofessional the congress people are for not doing their homework?

238 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:45:39pm

re: #227 shug

I'd like to put a cap on Congress and trade them to China

That's good. Do you think we could get a few of those uproariously funny bamboo chinese handcuffs in exchange?

239 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:45:58pm

And we all remember this oldie but goody when it comes to doing your part to conserve energy right?

The New York Times reported on Thursday, January 29 that:

“…the capital flew into a bit of a tizzy when, on his first full day in the White House, President Obama was photographed in the Oval Office without his suit jacket. There was, however, a logical explanation: Mr. Obama, who hates the cold, had cranked up the thermostat.

“He’s from Hawaii, O.K.?” said Mr. Obama’s senior adviser, David Axelrod, who occupies the small but strategically located office next door to his boss. “He likes it warm. You could grow orchids in there.”

Leading by example is not, apparently, part of the new administration's philosophy.

Link

240 CommonCents  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:46:41pm

Self compiled report using data from [Link: www.weather.com...] leads me to believe that GLOBAL WARMING is out of control.

Since Nov. 1, 2008 my little town in Michigan has seen the daily high temperature above average 76 times and the daily low 88 days above average. CRISIS! CRISIS!

If that ain't proof enough for you, how about "the rest of the story...."

There have been 153 days where the high was BELOW average and 142 days where the low was BELOW average. That's twice as many cold days than warm. Put that in your carbon producing pipe and smoke it.

241 semper gumbi  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:46:42pm

re: #211 avanti

His report is a compendium of science based reports from the field.

242 AZDave  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:46:47pm

re: #39 reloadingisnotahobby

The popularity of our politicians would go up if only they DID their JOB!
Reading cuts into the cocktail parties I'm sure!

And more time for adultery, too.

243 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:46:52pm
244 shug  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:46:55pm

re: #239 subsailor68

And we all remember this oldie but goody when it comes to doing your part to conserve energy right?

The New York Times reported on Thursday, January 29 that:

“…the capital flew into a bit of a tizzy when, on his first full day in the White House, President Obama was photographed in the Oval Office without his suit jacket. There was, however, a logical explanation: Mr. Obama, who hates the cold, had cranked up the thermostat.

“He’s from Hawaii, O.K.?” said Mr. Obama’s senior adviser, David Axelrod, who occupies the small but strategically located office next door to his boss. “He likes it warm. You could grow orchids in there.”

Leading by example is not, apparently, part of the new administration's philosophy.

Link

Sweaters are for the peons

245 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:46:55pm

re: #223 DesertSage

Where did AlGore get is science degree?

Al Gore did not do the science, he's just a believer in AGW and the politics about the issue is largely because of the rights feeling about Gore. If Gore did not have the scientific community behind him, he'd be ignored just like we ignore ID'ers.

246 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:46:56pm

re: #228 MrSilverDragon

Because they gave him a Klein bottle as a gift and he doesn't know how to get the water out.

/yes, that makes no sense.

The water is already outside. And inside.

247 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:47:08pm

re: #225 Mikey_Dallas

Has anyone noticed that if you put Nancy Pelosi in a black hooded robe, she'd look just like Emperor Palpatine?

BTW..... has anyone seen them together?

248 Neutral President  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:47:25pm

re: #216 jorline

PBO, the socialist in Hungary get it.

Hungary passes 2010 tax law, key test for govt

No they don't. The last thing we need is to give the democrats in this country any ideas about a "wealth tax".

249 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:47:52pm

How about a commercial of two people in the near dark in a ferocious fight ala Mr. & Mrs. Smith, until the bad guy succeeds in brutally strangling the good guy or woman. Then the tagline: Democrats are strangling the economy.
Make it the first R-rated political commercial.

250 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:47:59pm

re: #246 Kosh's Shadow

The water is already outside. And inside.

My jokes, like the cerebellum meeting the large intestine...

251 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:48:16pm

re: #247 eschew_obfuscation

BTW..... has anyone seen them together?

Has anyone seen Helen Thomas and Jabba the Hut together?

252 NonNativeTexan  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:48:27pm

" It’s very difficult to predict what the price of fossil fuels will be three years out, let alone 10"This statement reflects a tremendous lack of self awareness
of one's argument.
It is very difficult to predict the weather next week,
let alone next century.
The real weather doesn't support the computer models.
I guess those wood fires 15,000 years ago melted
the 400 meter thick ice sheet covering Manhattan.

253 Racer X  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:48:34pm

The planet is fine.

People are the ones screwing things up.

254 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:49:06pm

re: #218 semper gumbi

I'll see your link and raise you

"Carbongate"

Calling into question the credentials of an author is the modis operandi of the "AGW world is going to end crowd". Heck, the biggest proponent of AGW, Dr. James Hansen, isn't a climate scientist either. I guess that means he isn't qualified to speak in this subject - and his AGQ theory is all a bunch of hot air?

Speaking about the subject is fine, if you can back it up with the science. The POTUS has no science background, but like the rest of us, he can read.

255 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:49:07pm

re: #251 Mad Al-Jaffee

Has anyone seen Helen Thomas and Jabba the Hut together?

Only during the wedding....Lost contact with them after that.

256 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:49:10pm

re: #235 shug

No warming for the last 15 years
while
CO2 levels continue to rise

Details.
nobody wants details.
/

257 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:49:25pm

re: #234 Ben Hur

More French probably die every summer from lack of ac than Palis from Israelis.

Weird analogy.

But I like it.

Cause, well you know.

I like it too..... strange.

258 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:49:30pm

re: #226 samsgran1948

With you on everything but this:

creating rules that exclude the less financially well off in the name of "conservation", the elites get to enjoy our national parks undisturbed by the hoi-poloi.

huh? how are the national parks being closed to anyone but elites?

259 Dreader1962  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:49:44pm

My main question now (and has been) who will monitor the carbon output of each separate economy? I really don't think that we will get honest reporting of pollution from economies that are competing directly with us - we never have. What's to prevent China or India from reporting that they have limited carbon producing power production and industrial output?

Has anyone come up with an objective 'price' per ton of carbon? If a majority of homes in a particular country are heated by charcoal heaters and/or wood stoves, are those measured?

Also, there is the 'pipe-dream' of alternative power sources, which so far have produced a relative trickle of power into the grid. Once a power company has passed the cost of carbon production to the consumer, what creates the incentive for them to shut down a coal-fired power plant? How do you balance a region that is already economically depressed with a coal-fired plant against another region with 'clean' power.

I recently saw a commercial that proudly boasted that their product was produced with wind power. At the bottom of the screen was the text 'Produced with power derived from wind and traditional sources' - which gives the lie to everything, doesn't it? One kilowatt of wind power used a day in the plant allows them to make this claim - I picture a wind generator powering a single bulb on the production line.

Anyone here have answers?

260 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:49:49pm

re: #171 avanti

That straw man was rolled out before the house vote. The guy at the EPA was a bean counter, not evolved with the science.

link

But unfortunately for the AGW crowd, most of the "scientists" who have endorsed AGW (and such as the IPCC), are not qualified in the hard sciences, they're social scientists. Like I really care about a sociologist's opinion on global warming.

261 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:49:58pm
262 Kragar  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:50:13pm

re: #253 Racer X

The planet is fine.

People are the ones screwing things up. over-reacting

FTFY

263 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:50:20pm

re: #240 CommonCents

Self compiled report using data from [Link: www.weather.com...] leads me to believe that GLOBAL WARMING is out of control.

Since Nov. 1, 2008 my little town in Michigan has seen the daily high temperature above average 76 times and the daily low 88 days above average. CRISIS! CRISIS!

If that ain't proof enough for you, how about "the rest of the story...."

There have been 153 days where the high was BELOW average and 142 days where the low was BELOW average. That's twice as many cold days than warm. Put that in your carbon producing pipe and smoke it.

What has local weather have to do with global climate change ?

264 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:50:24pm

Come to think of it, I've never seen Obama and God together....

265 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:50:55pm

re: #239 subsailor68

"He's from Hawaii"? How long has he lived in Chicago?

266 z9z99  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:51:04pm

You don't have to be firmly convinced about global warmning one way or the other to see the naivete of thinking "cap and trade" will facilitate negotiations with China and India. The assumption behind this pollyanna thinking is that China and India think that global warming is a foregone conclusion. There is enough serious skepticism, from objective scientists, to allow India and China to reject the underlying premise of cap and trade and tend to their economic self-interests regardless of what we do to our own economy. The assumption that the whole world thinks that "the overwhelming weight of the evidence" favors anthropogenic global warming, and more importantly that it will continue to think that, can have very painful consequences.

267 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:51:11pm

re: #218 semper gumbi

I'll see your link and raise you

"Carbongate"

Calling into question the credentials of an author is the modis operandi of the "AGW world is going to end crowd". Heck, the biggest proponent of AGW, Dr. James Hansen, isn't a climate scientist either. I guess that means he isn't qualified to speak in this subject - and his AGQ theory is all a bunch of hot air?

Yeah, but his lack of credentials are surely balanced by that world class scientist and thinker, Al Gore.
/*If my sarc tag was any bigger it would be.......China*

268 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:51:15pm

re: #251 Mad Al-Jaffee

Has anyone seen Helen Thomas and Jabba the Hut together?

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It would be irresponsible NOT to!

--Peggy Noonan

(yes, real quote)

269 CommonCents  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:51:39pm

re: #254 avanti

Speaking about the subject is fine, if you can back it up with the science. The POTUS has no science background, but like the rest of us, he can read.

He's proven that many times over.

270 jorline  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:51:44pm

re: #248 ArchangelMichael

No they don't. The last thing we need is to give the democrats in this country any ideas about a "wealth tax".

I agree with that, but I like the 17% tax rate.

The government will cut personal income tax rates and raise the lower income bracket to ensure that average incomes are taxed at a 17 percent rate, and will reduce the employment tax to encourage employers to save and create jobs.

Actually the only reason the left voted for this was to stymie early elections they were sure to lose.

271 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:52:13pm

re: #254 avanti

Speaking about the subject is fine, if you can back it up with the science. The POTUS has no science background, but like the rest of us, he can read.

Read != Understand.

272 CommonCents  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:52:24pm

re: #263 avanti

What has local weather have to do with global climate change ?

I forgot, I live on another globe. ^^!^^

273 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:52:57pm

re: #245 avanti

Al Gore did not do the science, he's just a believer in AGW and the politics about the issue is largely because of the rights feeling about Gore. If Gore did not have the scientific community behind him, he'd be ignored just like we ignore ID'ers.

Your quote:

The guy might have some valid input on the costs, but his opinion on the science is just his opinion not data based.

AlGore is absolutely no different then Alan Carlin. Neither one of them have a degree in science. Both have an opinion. AlGore has testified before congress. Alan Carlin has his report squelched.

Explain to me why AlGore is more important then Alan Carlin?

274 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:53:07pm

re: #272 CommonCents

I forgot, I live on another globe. ^^!^^

weather != climate

275 eon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:53:16pm

re: #144 englishprof

The big problem with the bill--and with the left's approach to energy in general--is the failure to fast-track nuclear energy expansion. Modern nuclear plants are safe, the energy they produce is economical, and the emissions are harmless (although they do use some water). The technique of reprocessing almost eliminates waste--we could be storing all the nuclear waste from the nation in an area the size of a football field. Compare that to the ecological impact of miles and miles of concrete pads and new roads associated with wind farms. Besides, nuclear plants can be built by cities, and they generate electricity all the time. Wind farms generally require accompanying huge transmission lines, and they often aren't generating much at all during the night.

All true, but that assumes that the left wants cheap, clean, abundant energy available to the populace.

News flash; They Don't.

The left holds our technological civilization responsible for everything they hate; democracy, technology, a high standard of living, and people being able to move, read, write, think, and relate as they please, as opposed to doing so only as and how their "betters" tell them to. (Those 'betters" being the "enlightened elite'", of course.) Since our civilization is a serious stumbling block to their dreams of a neo-Luddite, crypto-medieval, feudalistic world with them in charge, it just has to go. To wit;


Michael Fumento, author of Science Under Siege (Morrow, 1993) has compiled additional damning quotations. Fumento notes that in 1990, when cold-fusion nonsense briefly promised an infinite supply of bargain-priced, ecologically harmless energy, environmentalist pest Jeremy Rifkin called this, "the worst thing that could happen to our planet." This is not a new position among the pesky. In a 1977 issue of Mother Earth Amory Lovins wrote, "It would be little short of disastrous for us to discover a source of clean, cheap, abundant energy because of what we might do with it." And in 1978 the inevitable Paul Ehrlich said, in the Federation of American Scientists' Public Interest Report "Giving society cheap, abundant energy... would be the equivalent of giving an idiot child a machine gun." (Not a meal, a bath, some toys, and a warm bed or anything like that.)

- P.J. O'Rourke, All the Trouble in the World Atlantic Monthly Press, 1994, p. 171

I might also point out that this farrago of race hatred toward humanity as a whole was being spouted when the "enviros" were screaming that we were headed for a new Ice Age- unless, of course, we did... all the things they are demanding we do now to "Stop Global Warming".

Sorry. I have to call bullshit on all of it. These "environmentalists" are a mixed bag of scientific ignoramuses, neo-Luddite primitivists, would-be authoritarians, and out-and-out nihilists who are determined to destroy our civilization to satisfy their own peculiar impulses. And first and foremost, they are liars, in both serial and multiple forms. I would no more trust what the "environmentalist experts" of today say than I would trust a Persian court astrologer of Cyrus the Great's time to predict the future.

Because the two would each have exactly as much actual hard data behind their prognostications. That is, none.

To Hell with all of them.

/rant mode off.

cheers

eon

276 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:53:20pm

re: #263 avanti

What has local weather have to do with global climate change ?

Rotating title?

277 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:53:27pm

re: #263 avanti

What has local weather have to do with global climate change ?

re: #264 Mikey_Dallas

Come to think of it, I've never seen Obama and God together....

I've never seen Obama and Bozo together.

278 sngnsgt  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:54:06pm

re: #206 Mikey_Dallas

Re Obama-wan-kenobi

How far do you think the Jedi would have gotten with a wind-powered light saber?

Solar powered... ;-)

279 JustABill  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:54:07pm

re: #269 CommonCents

He's proven that many times over.


Yes, but did someone put the research about AGW on his teleprompter?

280 J.D.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:54:15pm

re: #276 Ben Hur

Rotating title?

Seconded.

281 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:54:18pm

re: #223 DesertSage

Where did AlGore get is science degree?

In his free time when he was inventing the internet

282 jorline  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:54:27pm

re: #248 ArchangelMichael

No they don't. The last thing we need is to give the democrats in this country any ideas about a "wealth tax".

Give small business some tax breaks and loosen up lending and I would build another restaurant.

283 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:54:35pm

re: #258 iceweasel

With you on everything but this:

creating rules that exclude the less financially well off in the name of "conservation", the elites get to enjoy our national parks undisturbed by the hoi-poloi.

huh? how are the national parks being closed to anyone but elites?

Increasing fees is one way.

Park Service to Increase Entrance Fees

Under the new fee structure, annual park passes will generally range from $10 to $40. Fees per person would range from about $5 to $12; per vehicle, they would be about $10 to $25.

A $50 fee for an annual pass has already taken effect at Grand Canyon and Zion and for a combined pass into Grand Teton and Yellowstone.

(To be fair, this occurred prior to the 2008 election, so it's not a dig at the Obama administration, merely the observation that raising fees is one way poorer folks are disadvantaged.)

284 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:54:40pm

re: #251 Mad Al-Jaffee

Has anyone seen Helen Thomas and Jabba the Hut together?

Actually, I saw them at Luby's last week, chowing down at the desert bar.

285 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:55:15pm

#229 tradewind

When the French decided to go en masse vacances in August a few years ago and leave their elderly to the heat sans a/c, the irony was that the only place the elderly could take refuge from the awful heat that killed hundred of them was in McDonalds. The hated Mickey D's offered ice water and cool air, and they were the only place in town to get it for free.

Actually, the number of elderly French killed in 2003 while their families left them in the heat to go on vacation is 15,000. Strangely that headline didn't last long in the press.

286 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:55:19pm

re: #278 sngnsgt

Solar powered... ;-)

I don't know, the image of Luke setting up a windmill every time he pulls it (his lightsaber) out is funnier.

287 fortunate son  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:55:34pm

AGW is BS. The world has been cooling for a few years now and that's why they had to modify their phrase to "climate change." Common sense would alone dictate that there is something disingenuous is going on. CO2 is a pollutant? Come on! Amimals exhale it and plants breathe it.

This site has a lot of information. It is worth checking out. [Link: www.ilovemycarbondioxide.com...]

288 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:56:06pm

re: #273 DesertSage

AlGore is absolutely no different then Alan Carlin. Neither one of them have a degree in science. Both have an opinion. AlGore has testified before congress. Alan Carlin has his report squelched.

Explain to me why AlGore is more important then Alan Carlin?

After all these years, you still don't get it?

It's not about Gore, or the Earth.

It's about George Bush.

They will adorn him with every prize, every accolade, buy everything he sells, because GEORGE BUSH STOLE THE ELECTION AND GORE WAS RIGHTFUL POTUS.

289 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:56:20pm
290 nines09  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:56:36pm

Why should I be afraid of this bill? After all it only might cost me some more money I don't have but save me from paying more money to someone else I don't have. Simple. After all, everyone knows what's actually written into it, right?

291 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:56:38pm

The Obama administration has assured Israel it will continue defending Israel at the United Nations despite the allies' dispute over West Bank settlements, Israel's UN ambassador said on Monday.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

As they abrogated and lied about every promise the Bush Administration made to Israel. Fool me once shame on you , fool me twice........

292 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:56:55pm

re: #285 ladycatnip

#229 tradewind

Actually, the number of elderly French killed in 2003 while their families left them in the heat to go on vacation is 15,000. Strangely that headline didn't last long in the press.

That's how the left plan on getting more, not increased production, but rather fewer of the wrong type of people. Ask Margaret Sanger:

We want fewer and better children . . . and we cannot make the social life and the world-peace we are determined to make, with the ill-bred, ill-trained swarms of inferior citizens that you inflict on us.
Margaret Sanger

The 20th-century reproductive-rights movement, really embodied in the life and leadership of Margaret Sanger, was one of the most transformational in the entire history of the human race
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

293 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:57:34pm

I think a snark hunt support bill will be appropriate too. It will create more jobs with less damage to the economy. In so many words, AGW does not exist. Department of throbbing gifs as we head back to the 120 year average even after adjustments: [Link: wattsupwiththat.com...]

Of course those adjustments have a certain similarity to the global warming trend: [Link: wattsupwiththat.com...]

Note the unadjusted data.

294 sngnsgt  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:57:40pm

re: #286 Mikey_Dallas

I don't know, the image of Luke setting up a windmill every time he pulls it (his lightsaber) out is funnier.

That's true...

295 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:57:41pm

re: #235 shug

No warming for the last 15 years
while
CO2 levels continue to rise

that's the wrench in the works right there.
the temp is not rising now. tho co2 levels are.
btw i heard this is the 2nd coldest june since they have been keeping records.

they can't make a massive power grab like this w/ out a reason. they are using the climate to frighten people into giving up their liberty.

296 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:57:55pm

re: #275 eon

I might also point out that this farrago of race hatred toward humanity as a whole was being spouted when the "enviros" were screaming that we were headed for a new Ice Age- unless, of course, we did... all the things they are demanding we do now to "Stop Global Warming".

Sorry. I have to call bullshit on all of it. These "environmentalists" are a mixed bag of scientific ignoramuses, neo-Luddite primitivists, would-be authoritarians, and out-and-out nihilists who are determined to destroy our civilization to satisfy their own peculiar impulses. And first and foremost, they are liars, in both serial and multiple forms. I would no more trust what the "environmentalist experts" of today say than I would trust a Persian court astrologer of Cyrus the Great's time to predict the future.

Because the two would each have exactly as much actual hard data behind their prognostications. That is, none.

To Hell with all of them.

/rant mode off.

cheers

eon

Bravo.

297 J.D.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:57:57pm

re: #286 Mikey_Dallas

I don't know, the image of Luke setting up a windmill every time he pulls it (his lightsaber) out is funnier.


Of course you don't need to specify that "it" is his lightsaber in this crowd. Maybe another crowd...
/

298 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:58:34pm

re: #273 DesertSage

Explain to me why AlGore is more important then Alan Carlin?

I never stated that, since Alan is a skeptic he's free to offer any opinion he likes and we'll weigh it based on the science he uses to prove it. If he can get some data that shows AGW is bunk, he can become more famous then Gore, but just saying, "I don't buy it" means little without some backup.

299 CommonCents  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:58:49pm

re: #274 iceweasel

weather != climate

cli-mate
-noun
the composite or generally prevailing weather conditions of a region, as temperature, air pressure, humidity, precipitation, sunshine, cloudiness, and winds, throughout the year, averaged over a series of years.

Hence my reference to temperatures.

300 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:58:57pm

re: #297 J.D.

Of course you don't need to specify that "it" is his lightsaber in this crowd. Maybe another crowd...
/

No, not with this crowd.

301 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:59:39pm

re: #286 Mikey_Dallas

I don't know, the image of Luke setting up a windmill every time he pulls it (his lightsaber) out is funnier.

Finding windmill scabbards on tattoine (sp?) can be tricky too.

302 Neutral President  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:59:47pm

re: #282 jorline

Give small business some tax breaks and loosen up lending and I would build another restaurant.

Tax breaks agree with. On the other hand I think lending has been way too loose for too long and still is. It seems "tight" in comparison to liar-loan housing boom days. I think easy credit is the last thing we need to keep doing.

/It might be that I'm just jaded about because I have practically zero debt, an 800+ FICA score, and yet I know I'm going to have to BOHICA because of all the idiots with 500 FICA scores, half a million dollar homes and 70 grand cars that they put nothing down on.

303 AZDave  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 12:59:59pm

re: #248 ArchangelMichael

No they don't. The last thing we need is to give the democrats in this country any ideas about a "wealth tax".

That's true. Dems like taxes because most of them don't pay them (until they're caught or asked to be in the Obama administration).

304 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:00:09pm

re: #300 Mikey_Dallas

No, not with this crowd.

Well, maybe some in this crowd... *blinks innocently*.

305 samsgran1948  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:00:16pm

re: #258 iceweasel

With you on everything but this:

creating rules that exclude the less financially well off in the name of "conservation", the elites get to enjoy our national parks undisturbed by the hoi-poloi.

huh? how are the national parks being closed to anyone but elites?

IIRC -- By allowing only a certain number of vehicles a day, limiting the types of vehicles, closing all lodging inside the parks and severely restricting commercial lodging near the parks. I'm sure Sowell cited several other proprosed laws -- all designed to make it physically and/or financially impossible for the average citizen to enjoy the parks. -- parks that the average citizen supports with their taxes.

306 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:01:21pm
307 DesertSage  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:01:27pm

re: #298 avanti

I never stated that, since Alan is a skeptic he's free to offer any opinion he likes and we'll weigh it based on the science he uses to prove it. If he can get some data that shows AGW is bunk, he can become more famous then Gore, but just saying, "I don't buy it" means little without some backup.

Alan Carlin seems a little bit more educated then you suggest.

Ph.D., Economics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA
B.S., Physics, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA

[Link: carlineconomics.googlepages.com...]

308 Salem  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:01:51pm

YHGTBFK

309 CommonCents  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:02:17pm

Have a nice afternoon folks. I'm off to burn some fossil fuels on my way home after using a bunch of electricity today. Yet another capitalist success story.

310 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:02:32pm

re: #308 Salem

YHGTBFK

Gasunheit!

311 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:02:33pm

re: #298 avanti

I never stated that, since Alan is a skeptic he's free to offer any opinion he likes and we'll weigh it based on the science he uses to prove it. If he can get some data that shows AGW is bunk, he can become more famous then Gore, but just saying, "I don't buy it" means little without some backup.

No. The onus for "proving" AGW is on those who are using it to impose draconian economic burdens on us.

312 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:02:49pm

re: #292 DistantThunder

Gak! Son of eugenics 1920s style. Hitler would have loved it.

313 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:02:50pm

re: #254 avanti

He can? (read that is)? His energy czar admits to not having read the most current version of the bill, and she's his adviser. That's her job - an unelected official outside the confirmation process - to advise him on energy policy.

If she's not reading this bill, who is?

No, they know perfectly well that this bill contains in generalities since it was sent up to the bill writers with instructions as to what should be included.

It's a tax. They'll call it cap and trade but the end result is higher energy costs, and less energy available because energy producers aren't going to last long in an environment where they get hammered for producing a vital item underpinning the global economy - energy.

314 Neutral President  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:03:05pm

re: #308 Salem

YHGTBFK

Is that the longer variation of YGBSM?

315 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:03:12pm

#292 Distant Thunder

That's how the left plan on getting more, not increased production, but rather fewer of the wrong type of people. Ask Margaret Sanger:

We want fewer and better children . . . and we cannot make the social life and the world-peace we are determined to make, with the ill-bred, ill-trained swarms of inferior citizens that you inflict on us.
Margaret Sanger

The 20th-century reproductive-rights movement, really embodied in the life and leadership of Margaret Sanger, was one of the most transformational in the entire history of the human race
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

Margaret Sanger was a proponent of eugenics, right out of the Third Reich, yet, the libs don't seem to have a problem that she and her ideology started Planned Parenthood. The left has pretty much sanitized Sanger - maybe they can give her a posthumous Nobel for furthering her sick agenda on our culture.

316 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:03:45pm

re: #294 sngnsgt

Seems that a lot of Republicans in the south are pulling their light sabers out in the wrong places these days.

317 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:04:12pm

For all the people here who are comfortable with making statements, and even sometimes entire posts, that say

"TEH LEFT" hates democracy, hates america, hates our constitution....wants to destroy our way of life, american values, democracy.."

(BTW, I'm quoting from numerous posts made here just in the last 24 hours)

..may I politely suggest that before you hit "post", you substitute "The Jews", or "Black people" or "BUSH!" for "TEH LEFT" while you proofread?

If it seems crazy, insane, racist or antisemitic when you proofread doing that-- maybe you should think twice before posting that TEH LEFT does or thinks or believes all those things?

Thanks in advance for your consideration,

Sincerely,

NOT "teh left"

318 irongrampa  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:04:16pm

So what would the furor be if the planet was said to be cooling? Wonder how they'd spin that?


Don't really give a rat's ass which is occuring, all I intend doing is to adapt to the particular and survive.

Somebody else can assign blame.

319 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:04:30pm

re: #314 ArchangelMichael

Is that the longer variation of YGBSM?

It's "You have got to be f'in kidding"...

...or a sneeze that you try to stifle but it comes out anyways.

320 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:04:41pm

SYDNEY -- Tennis great Chris Evert has joined the chorus of complaints about the noise level in women's tennis, saying the "grunting" was getting out of hand.

[Link: sports.espn.go.com...]

"I don't understand the philosophy of it."

It's a sexually thing Chris, you'll never understand it?

321 lightspeed  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:04:46pm

The Wired article is a joke. "Balaced look?" How about barely any look at all with random facts and ridiculous conclusions? Examples from the article:

* "A recent RAND study estimated that the 12-15 percent of the military budget could be saved if we relied less on oil from the Persian Gulf." WTF does that have to do with the Crap and Trade bill? Are we going to start building solar-powered tanks, electric fighter planes, and return to sailing ships?

* Contradiction - "The Congressional Budget Office has calculated that the net cost of the legislation in 2020 per American household will be about $175" but earlier in the article, "Here’s the basic idea: by making burning coal, natural gas and other fossil fuels more expensive, the legislation will make renewable energy sources like wind and solar power more attractive." Hmm, something smells rotten here. So fossil fuels will be more expensive, but it won't cost the average American household hardly anything? Only if every American starts completely powering their homes with wind/solar and starts driving golf carts and grows their own food, makes their own clothes, and starts living like a Luddite. Of course, that is what they want. Or maybe living like an average East German in 1975 is closer to what they are shooting for.

* " For example, if global oil and natural gas prices spike — and this bill has generated substantial investments in alternatives — then it will seem like a great idea, regardless of the legislation’s impact on the country’s carbon dioxide emissions." Why? Because we will already be paying for more expensive and less efficient alternatives? Because we will be burning food (ethanol) to fuel or vehicles? Or will we be driving electric-powered vehicles that we can't keep charged because genius-in-charge killed the coal industry, won't support nuclear, and wind, water, solar can't keep up with demand.

* " If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own." Yeah, China always looks to the U.S. to set it's own policies. And they are REALLY concerned about the environment. Look at the incredible effort they went to to clean up the algae off their coastline for the Olympics! Forget the fact that it was there due to the incredible amount of untreated sewerage/garbage they dump into the ocean daily. Nah, those Chineses are sure to follow the U.S. and help clean up the planet.

322 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:05:45pm

re: #245 avanti

Al Gore did not do the science, he's just a believer in AGW and the politics about the issue is largely because of the rights feeling about Gore. If Gore did not have the scientific community behind him, he'd be ignored just like we ignore ID'ers.

AGW isn't science, it's religion. It has only become accepted because of constant huckstering by a left leaning MSM, and by the endorsement of many non-scientist scientists. There are scientists who back ID and YEC, too. And BTW, when Al Gore spent a year at the Vanderbilt Divinity School he failed 5 out of his 8 classes. How on earth do you fail a course at divinity school?

323 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:05:54pm

re: #317 iceweasel

But you are on teh left?

324 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:06:02pm

re: #283 subsailor68

Is that with or without clothes?

325 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:06:28pm

Back to the salt mines for me. Y'all have a great night, see you again soon!

326 JustABill  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:06:38pm

re: #318 irongrampa

So what would the furor be if the planet was said to be cooling? Wonder how they'd spin that?


Don't really give a rat's ass which is occuring, all I intend doing is to adapt to the particular and survive.

Somebody else can assign blame.

You don't have to wonder. During the early "Earth Day"s one of the items discussed was how man was going to cause the next ice age...

327 Kragar  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:07:31pm

re: #307 DesertSage

[Link: carlineconomics.googlepages.com...]

But has he produced an Oscar winning film? How many times has he been on Oprah or the View? How can we take him seriously?

/

328 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:07:32pm

re: #323 Nevergiveup

But you are on teh left?

Kinda, but I don't get to BE 'teh left'. :(

We pass that honour around.

329 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:07:37pm

re: #287 fortunate son

AGW is BS. The world has been cooling for a few years now and that's why they had to modify their phrase to "climate change." Common sense would alone dictate that there is something disingenuous is going on. CO2 is a pollutant? Come on! Amimals exhale it and plants breathe it.

This site has a lot of information. It is worth checking out. [Link: www.ilovemycarbondioxide.com...]

Very little in your post is accurate, climate change was chosen because warming causes more effects then just warming. Excessive C02 is not a pollutant if you are a tree and the earth is still warmer despite a slow down in the rate for a couple of years.
It's a waste of time to spout the science on AGW when it's such a politically tainted subject. The good news for the AGW crowd is that some leaders on the right are starting to accept the science, even if they are rightly concerned about how to solve the problem.

330 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:07:37pm

re: #248 ArchangelMichael

No they don't. The last thing we need is to give the democrats in this country any ideas about a "wealth tax".

The death tax is a direct tax on wealth levied at the 50% rate on the passing of each generation.

331 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:08:19pm

re: #317 iceweasel

I commend to you the following book: Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change by Jonah Goldberg [Link: www.amazon.com...]

There is little new under the sun. Fascism per se started with Bismark.

332 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:08:47pm

re: #328 iceweasel

Kinda, but I don't get to BE 'teh left'. :(

We pass that honour around.

You are what you are

333 Salem  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:08:51pm

Who cares if China and India share in this fantasy. AGW is and always will be a load of horseshit.

334 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:09:13pm

re: #324 Shr_Nfr

Is that with or without clothes?

LOL! Let me give that Georgia mayor a call. I'll get back to ya!

:-)

335 Salem  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:09:26pm

Money and control. That is all this has ever been about.

336 Neutral President  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:09:28pm

re: #330 Son of the Black Dog

The death tax is a direct tax on wealth levied at the 50% rate on the passing of each generation.

True, estate taxes and property taxes are wealth taxes. The last thing we need is for them to add more wealth taxes to that pile.

337 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:10:37pm

re: #331 Shr_Nfr

I commend to you the following book: Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change by Jonah Goldberg [Link: www.amazon.com...]

There is little new under the sun. Fascism per se started with Bismark.

Bismark is a herring...

338 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:10:44pm

re: #254 avanti

Speaking about the subject is fine, if you can back it up with the science. The POTUS has no science background, but like the rest of us, he can read.

I'm not convinced of that. What did he take at Columbia? Don't know, do you? When have you ever hear of him reading a book?

339 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:10:44pm

re: #235 shug

No warming for the last 15 years
while
CO2 levels continue to rise

Simply not

true.

340 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:10:46pm

re: #332 Nevergiveup

You are what you are

You bet. Hence the utility of my replacement suggestion, to those who think they prove they're patriots or 'american' by smearing half the country.

More than half, right now. :)

341 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:10:49pm

re: #305 samsgran1948

Having gone to some of the big national parks (Grand Canyon, Zion, Olympic, Bryce, Mt. Rainier, etc), the car limits actually do make sense and make some of these parks far more enjoyable since you're no longer spending hours waiting in traffic to get parking or into the park itself, particularly at places like Grand Canyon. Some parks lend themselves to driving through - or around, while others, like Zion, lend themselves to a hybrid approach, limiting cars on the Zion Canyon drive, but thru traffic is allowed to cross the park since it's a major E/W connector road.

I'm not aware of lodging closed within the parks to limit access - some parks have seasonal lodging and food options available, and some might have renovations underway. A few might even have had closures as a result of flooding or other damage (Olympic comes to mind).

It's a balancing act - to preserve the natural splendor of the parks while enabling all Americans access to these national treasures.

342 Kragar  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:11:53pm

re: #329 avanti

climate change was chosen because warming causes more effects then just warming didn't have the evidence to back it up and they could get more mileage with smoke and mirrors that way.

FTFY

343 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:12:04pm

re: #326 JustABill

There is the infamous 1975 newsweek article. Do a search on "newsweek ice age" and you can get to it. The early 70s were the low point temperature on the AMO. They were all predicting the next ice age. Since then we have gone through the 30 year warming part of the 60 year cycle. Guess what? We are now going into the 30 year cooling phase. Weak solar magnetic fields or not, the temperature is going down. If we are headed into a Dalton type minimum, it may go down in a real hurry. Global warming masked by global cooling masked by global insanity.

344 jorline  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:12:07pm

re: #302 ArchangelMichael

Tax breaks agree with. On the other hand I think lending has been way too loose for too long and still is. It seems "tight" in comparison to liar-loan housing boom days. I think easy credit is the last thing we need to keep doing.

/It might be that I'm just jaded about because I have practically zero debt, an 800+ FICA score, and yet I know I'm going to have to BOHICA because of all the idiots with 500 FICA scores, half a million dollar homes and 70 grand cars that they put nothing down on.

Spot on! The loose housing market killed us. If you don't have 20% to put down on the home of your choice then lower you standards. The bridge loans for the 20% were total bullshit.

My frustration stems from SBA is backing 90% of the small business loans at this time and they're harder to find than an honest job with ACORN.

345 Neutral President  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:12:24pm

re: #328 iceweasel

Kinda, but I don't get to BE 'teh left'. :(

We pass that honour around.

Rotating position like the elite-appointed dictator President of Eurabia the EU?

346 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:13:02pm

re: #338 Son of the Black Dog

I'm not convinced of that. What did he take at Columbia? Don't know, do you? When have you ever hear of him reading a book?

Sure he graduated from Harvard with honors and can not read. /s

347 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:13:09pm

re: #334 subsailor68

Ok, I just want advance notice if Nancy Pelosi goes on vacation there ok? If I go, I want it to be on an empty stomach.

348 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:13:26pm

re: #317 iceweasel

For all the people here who are comfortable with making statements, and even sometimes entire posts, that say

"TEH LEFT" hates democracy, hates america, hates our constitution....wants to destroy our way of life, american values, democracy.."

(BTW, I'm quoting from numerous posts made here just in the last 24 hours)

..may I politely suggest that before you hit "post", you substitute "The Jews", or "Black people" or "BUSH!" for "TEH LEFT" while you proofread?

If it seems crazy, insane, racist or antisemitic when you proofread doing that-- maybe you should think twice before posting that TEH LEFT does or thinks or believes all those things?

Thanks in advance for your consideration,

Sincerely,

NOT "teh left"

That is an absurd non-sequitur. Absurd becuase were I to substitute any of those groups you name, the statement would make no sense. However, when Teh Left is inserted there is a mountain of observable actions that make the statement ring true. As is inserting iceweasel, apparently.
/

349 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:13:33pm

re: #258 iceweasel

With you on everything but this:

creating rules that exclude the less financially well off in the name of "conservation", the elites get to enjoy our national parks undisturbed by the hoi-poloi.

huh? how are the national parks being closed to anyone but elites?

Have you ever priced the lodging inside the National Parks, like near the rim of the Grand Canyon? Ordinary folks can't afford to stay there.

350 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:13:34pm

re: #337 Mikey_Dallas

Bismark is a herring...

Can we cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a Bismark herring?

351 kansas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:13:39pm

re: #339 avanti

Simply not

true.

Global Cooling
[Link: www.geocraft.com...]

352 Mikey_Dallas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:14:20pm

With Anthropological Climate Change, we can us ACC instead of AGW.

Then, when we want to "defeat the ACC", we'll have no problem getting the SEC, Big Ten, Big Twelve, etc on board.

353 kansas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:14:29pm

re: #346 avanti

Sure he graduated from Harvard with honors and can not read. /s

Get us a copy of his transcript.

354 J.S.  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:15:14pm

Well, if Greenpeace opposes cap and trade, what more can be said? The numbers in support of this bill dwindle daily...

355 kansas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:15:58pm

re: #354 J.S.

Well, if Greenpeace opposes cap and trade, what more can be said? The numbers in support of this bill dwindle daily...

I bet it still passes the Senate.

356 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:15:58pm

re: #348 LGoPs

That is an absurd non-sequitur. Absurd becuase were I to substitute any of those groups you name, the statement would make no sense. However, when Teh Left is inserted there is a mountain of observable actions that make the statement ring true. As is inserting iceweasel, apparently.
/

If you genuinely can't see why inserting "the left" there, as a group, is wrong, ..... you are part of the problem.

357 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:16:22pm

re: #340 iceweasel

You bet. Hence the utility of my replacement suggestion, to those JEWS who think they prove they're patriots or 'american' by smearing half the country.

More than half, right now. :)

Hey!

You're right!

358 SecondComing  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:16:42pm

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

It's actually "capon trade"--exchanging a functioning society for a society of castrated chickens.

How about Capone trade.

359 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:17:15pm

re: #357 Ben Hur

Hey!

You're right!

That's antisemitic.

360 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:17:28pm

i was talking w/ a leftist libtard today. she actually readily acknowledged all the hardships to come under cap-an-tax but she said after careful consideration, it would be good for the country, for the people to suffer in order to learn to appreciate 'stuff' they take for granted.
and that it wasn't right that we have so much when the rest of he world has so little.
she was dead serious to the point of getting teary eyed. she has swallowed the o-show whole. these morons really do want to de-develop america. make us 3rd world and suffer like barefoot peasant.
i was mesmerized as she went on talking like a train wreck.
they have come to hate their own country w/ such a vengeance.
and many too naive and stupid to even know what they are in for.

361 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:17:36pm

re: #352 Mikey_Dallas

With Anthropological Climate Change, we can us ACC instead of AGW.

Then, when we want to "defeat the ACC", we'll have no problem getting the SEC, Big Ten, Big Twelve, etc on board.

Oh crap! That was the funniest thing I've read all day..I think I got a Bruise when I fell out of my chair.. :)

362 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:18:51pm

re: #359 iceweasel

That's antisemitic.

Ben Hur anti-semitic--I don't think so!

363 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:18:57pm

re: #359 iceweasel

That's antisemitic.

Why did you down ding me?

I helped prove your point!

LOL!

364 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:19:14pm

re: #353 kansas

Get us a copy of his transcript.

OK, not this is getting silly. Like the birth certificate, his transcript is not a issue. He was elected, deal with opposing his policies if you like, but stop wasting time on non issues. Moving to the next thread.

365 Semper Gumbi  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:20:37pm
366 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:20:38pm

re: #356 iceweasel

If you genuinely can't see why inserting "the left" there, as a group, is wrong, ..... you are part of the problem.

We could have a really good back and forth here with me telling you that you are part of the problem and you replying that I am, so I'll start:

"You are the problem"

367 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:21:00pm

re: #363 Ben Hur

Why did you down ding me?

I helped prove your point!

LOL!

You altered my statement and --much worse--you made an antisemitic claim in so doing.

I don't normally downding people. I didn't think that was funny.

368 fortunate son  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:21:26pm

re: #329 avanti

Oh Please Avanti, if global warming was such a crisis then why did they invent with a carbon credit scheme so gore and his rich liberal friends could maintain their obscenely large carbon footprints? You don't see a carbon monoxide credit scheme do you?

369 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:21:43pm

re: #367 iceweasel

You altered my statement and --much worse--you made an antisemitic claim in so doing.

I don't normally downding people. I didn't think that was funny.


It was an exercise in your replacement thingy.

370 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:21:55pm

re: #340 iceweasel

You bet. Hence the utility of my replacement suggestion, to those who think they prove they're patriots or 'american' by smearing half the country.

More than half, right now. :)

far more americans identify as conservatives than libs.
libs are just more obnoxious and noisy.

371 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:22:08pm
372 kansas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:22:41pm

re: #364 avanti

OK, not this is getting silly. Like the birth certificate, his transcript is not a issue. He was elected, deal with opposing his policies if you like, but stop wasting time on non issues. Moving to the next thread.

You said you trusted him because he gradutated Summa or Magna, I can't remember, but you don't want to prove it. You can't. There are no transcripts and no medical records. Odd considering what was released on Bush.

373 sagehen  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:23:08pm

re: #201 DistantThunder

I don't understand why the Republicans don't hire a spokesman to give official news from the party. Someone who will attract lots of media attention, and can give press conferences and take questions. Could we lure Brit Hume? Or Megan Kelly?

I thought that was Fox's entire reason for existence.

Or at least their reason for hiring Roger Ailes to run the place.

374 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:23:48pm

re: #372 kansas

You said you trusted him because he gradutated Summa or Magna, I can't remember, but you don't want to prove it. You can't. There are no transcripts and no medical records. Odd considering what was released on Bush.

Like his drunk driving arrest the day before the election? And the MSM was only 75% in the tank then.

375 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:25:01pm

re: #302 ArchangelMichael

Tax breaks agree with. On the other hand I think lending has been way too loose for too long and still is. It seems "tight" in comparison to liar-loan housing boom days. I think easy credit is the last thing we need to keep doing.

Actually, no, it's not. Lending is tight now. I spent a good part of the week before last at a conference. Banking/lending were the big ticket discussions everyone was attending. From a panel of banking and investment execs:

TARP and other "stimulus" funds were given to banks - a huge windfall for them. However, interest rates are so low - especially the rates banks charge to each other, that there is no profit in investing (lending) the funds. So, they are holding tight and waiting for the expected inflation and rising interest rates.

The execs were from BofA, Wells Fargo, Chase, Citi, and others. It was an interesting panel discussion..

376 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:25:21pm

re: #366 LGoPs

We could have a really good back and forth here with me telling you that you are part of the problem and you replying that I am, so I'll start:

"You are the problem"

I know you are, but what am I? / :)

Do we have to go on?

I'm really surprised you'd find my earlier post objectionable. Whenever I'm tempted to make a sweeping generalisation about Republicans, or whoever, I find it very useful to substitute another term in there. Like 'Democrats'.

If it looks unfair and sweeping when you do that, it's a good clue that you should revise your statement.

377 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:26:25pm

re: #371 Iron Fist

Have you considered that the racial and ethnicities you have mentioned are arbitrary groupings of human beings, not voluntary groupings of individuals like in a political party who join together for shared ideological values?

Members of religions would disagree with you on that.

378 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:26:55pm

re: #376 iceweasel

Most people on here don't like to be lectured. You could probably make your point without being so condescending. It might actually work

379 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:28:16pm

re: #378 Nevergiveup

Most people on here don't like to be lectured. You could probably make your point without being so condescending. It might actually work

I'm not aware of having lectured-- or being condescending-- but THIS:

You could probably make your point without being so condescending. It might actually work

sure as hell sounds like you know how to do it. Just sayin'.

380 jvic  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:28:21pm

re: #9 DesertSage

I want to know why the EPA suppressed a report skeptical of Global Warming?

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

There was a short thread about this that started here; another one started here.

I noted that Carlin got a BS in physics from Caltech before becoming an economist (PhD, MIT).

This credentialed expert does not defend Carlin's science but agrees that the EPA stifled dissent:

Who Cares About Integrity of Process When There are Political Points to Score?
381 kansas  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:28:57pm

Every once in a while it dawns on me that while we know Al Gore's GPA and that he flunked divinity school, and have seen George Bush's grades, and medical records, we see nothing on Obama Transcripts? Nah. Medical records? I can't find em. Anything from High School, College, anything? Nothing. Harvard Law Review, supposedly, what did he write? Nothing? And I don't give a shit where he was born, I want to see pertinent records. Where are they?

382 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:34:48pm

re: #371 Iron Fist

I answered very quickly but you deserved more of an answer:

Whatever your personal views are on issues, the fact is that the Democrat Party (Leftists) generally agree on most issues, and if they disagree with some of the issues they feel that it is more important that their pet issue gets its slice of the pie. There's nothing particularly wrong about that, but you have to remember that you will be judged by the company you keep.

This I have to disagree with.

Fuck the Democratic party. I'm not a member. (surprise!)

"The left" does not = the democratic party. The left and progressives are pretty angry at the democrats and have been for years.

treating "the left" like it's some monolith, and like it's coextensive with the democratic party, is ridiculous. "the left" is wildly diverse and the activist left loathes the Democratic party.

383 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:35:31pm
384 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:36:17pm

re: #376 iceweasel

I know you are, but what am I? / :)

Do we have to go on?
I'm really surprised you'd find my earlier post objectionable. Whenever I'm tempted to make a sweeping generalisation about Republicans, or whoever, I find it very useful to substitute another term in there. Like 'Democrats'.

If it looks unfair and sweeping when you do that, it's a good clue that you should revise your statement.

Of course not. But there are many examples of the Left engaging in precisely those ideas that you comment on, as in for example hating the Constitution. The Left's constant drumbeat that the Constitution needs to be a living document is an argument for making it unrecognizable in short order. I don't see 'blacks' or 'Jews' or 'Bush' wanting to do that.
The Left's embrace of Communist ideas and defense of the Communist bloc is emblematic of a hatred for America. America is more an idea than a physical geographical place just as Communism is an idea that transcends the borders of Russia or China. And as competing ideas they are like matter and anti-matter and cannot exist in the same space. Again, I don't see 'blacks' or 'Jews' or 'Bush' embracing those ideas as the Left does.
That's where I was coming from.

385 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:36:22pm

re: #381 kansas

Don't hold your breath. He must have something to hide. I am just waiting for some libtard to get pissed off enough at him to leak them. It will not be pretty for a lot of moonbats as their heads explode.

386 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:37:22pm

re: #383 Iron Fist

Add Samaritans to that list.

387 ckb  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:38:50pm
China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

And monkeys might fly out of my butt...

388 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:40:13pm

re: #382 iceweasel

I answered very quickly but you deserved more of an answer:


This I have to disagree with.

Fuck the Democratic party. I'm not a member. (surprise!)

"The left" does not = the democratic party. The left and progressives are pretty angry at the democrats and have been for years.

treating "the left" like it's some monolith, and like it's coextensive with the democratic party, is ridiculous. "the left" is wildly diverse and the activist left loathes the Democratic party.

Strong agreement with you there.
:)

389 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:43:23pm
390 DisturbedEma  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #372 kansas

You said you trusted him because he gradutated Summa or Magna, I can't remember, but you don't want to prove it. You can't. There are no transcripts and no medical records. Odd considering what was released on Bush.

Not to mention that his transcripts ARE relevant to the situation- amazing how that changed. . .Bush was "too dumb" right? AND we knew this because we had the transcripts. . .but now that we want to know about zero's grades. . .now that kind of thing doesn't matter.

391 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:43:46pm

re: #383 Iron Fist

(IF, I started an answer to you and saved it; also favourited your post, so that I can come do it justice.)

392 DisturbedEma  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:45:07pm

re: #364 avanti

OK, not this is getting silly. Like the birth certificate, his transcript is not a issue. He was elected, deal with opposing his policies if you like, but stop wasting time on non issues. Moving to the next thread.

Good luck there-

393 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:45:53pm
394 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:47:17pm
You said you trusted him because he gradutated Summa or Magna, I can't remember, but you don't want to prove it. You can't. There are no transcripts and no medical records. Odd considering what was released on Bush.

Harvard says he graduated magna cum laude,
here.

395 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:47:55pm

re: #382 iceweasel

I answered very quickly but you deserved more of an answer:


This I have to disagree with.

Fuck the Democratic party. I'm not a member. (surprise!)

"The left" does not = the democratic party. The left and progressives are pretty angry at the democrats and have been for years.

treating "the left" like it's some monolith, and like it's coextensive with the democratic party, is ridiculous. "the left" is wildly diverse and the activist left loathes the Democratic party.

I am truly curious about your post. Full disclosure up front - I am strongly opposed to the Democratic Party in what it has become since the days of Kennedy, Humphrey and Jackson. As a matter of fact I consider it to be borderline treasonous, if not out and out treasonous, in many of its actions.
If this does not bring approval from the Left, what would?
I'm not trying to be snide, just truly wondering.

396 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:48:48pm

re: #384 LGoPs

Of course not. But there are many examples of the Left engaging in precisely those ideas that you comment on, as in for example hating the Constitution. The Left's constant drumbeat that the Constitution needs to be a living document is an argument for making it unrecognizable in short order. I don't see 'blacks' or 'Jews' or 'Bush' wanting to do that.
The Left's embrace of Communist ideas and defense of the Communist bloc is emblematic of a hatred for America. America is more an idea than a physical geographical place just as Communism is an idea that transcends the borders of Russia or China. And as competing ideas they are like matter and anti-matter and cannot exist in the same space. Again, I don't see 'blacks' or 'Jews' or 'Bush' embracing those ideas as the Left does.
That's where I was coming from.

You are nuts-- and there is no better way to put this, I'm sorry-- if you think that "THE LEFT" hates america. Seriously, just TRY to think about what what you're claiming.

My point about substituting a term like "the jews" or --really, anything else-- is NOT that it's believable that "the jews" hate america. It's that making the substitution should make anyone wake up and realise they're advocating something crazy that maligns an entire group.

397 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:48:49pm

re: #234 Ben Hur

More French probably die every summer from lack of ac than Palis from Israelis.

Weird analogy.

But I like it.

Cause, well you know.

However, the Israeli/Palestinian situation is intractable, while installing air conditioning in Paris would be pretty easy.

398 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:51:03pm

re: #395 LGoPs

I only just saw this after I'd answered your earlier post. I'll answer but in a bit. Sorry! (have to go for a bit)

399 Nadnerb  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:54:40pm

re: #76 lawhawk

Very astute comment, sir. The true-believer eco freaks will never be satiated, until we are driving air powered cars built in factories powered by unicorn tears. They are Luddites in the fullest sense of the word and complete contrarians. The aversion to nuclear power by these folks is absurd, given the cleanliness and MW output of a reactor. What really gets me laughing is thinking if a steel mill or manufacturing plant powered by wind. Do these folks have any idea how much energy a blast furnace needs to create raw material? We cannot power any expanding economy with solar and wind. There has to be huge, walloping power generated somewhere to move assembly lines, pump the presses and push the freighters. If you want clean, nuclear is the answer.

400 Robert Schwartz  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:55:09pm
If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own.

This is just delusional.

401 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:56:39pm

re: #396 iceweasel

You are nuts-- and there is no better way to put this, I'm sorry-- if you think that "THE LEFT" hates america. Seriously, just TRY to think about what what you're claiming.

My point about substituting a term like "the jews" or --really, anything else-- is NOT that it's believable that "the jews" hate america. It's that making the substitution should make anyone wake up and realise they're advocating something crazy that maligns an entire group.

So how does that make me an anti-Septic?

402 sagehen  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:56:50pm

re: #370 nyc redneck

far more americans identify as conservatives than libs.

Funny how 53% of them voted for what we were told was "the most liberal member of the senate, an avowed socialist."

Then again, maybe people who are personally conservative in the way they live their own lives, and people who are politically conservative in the economic and foreign policy proposals they support, are separate groups of people with only limited overlap. Anybody who considers themselves conservative in one or the other would tell the pollster they're conservative...

Heck, if we just go by the family values/lifestyle choices yardstick, the Obamas are more conservative than the RNC, RGA or RSCC.

..

403 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:56:56pm

Semite.

Anti-Semite.

404 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:59:58pm

Alrighty then.

405 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:02:07pm

re: #396 iceweasel

You are nuts-- and there is no better way to put this, I'm sorry-- if you think that "THE LEFT" hates america. Seriously, just TRY to think about what what you're claiming.

My point about substituting a term like "the jews" or --really, anything else-- is NOT that it's believable that "the jews" hate america. It's that making the substitution should make anyone wake up and realise they're advocating something crazy that maligns an entire group.

I've thought about it for over 30 years in watching the actions of the Left and I maintain what I said. It all boils down to what you define America as. And at it's essense it is a country that provides equality of opportunity for everyone that comes here. The left wants to replace that idea with equality of outcome for everyone. and the difference between those two words is the difference between liberty and tyranny (and no, I am not making a reference to Mark Levin's book).
If not for an intense dislike and disatisfaction or perhaps even hatred why else would the left want to fundamentally change America?

406 Alan Furman  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:03:40pm

re: #275 eon


[...] The left holds our technological civilization responsible for everything they hate; democracy, technology, a high standard of living, and people being able to move, read, write, think, and relate as they please, as opposed to doing so only as and how their "betters" tell them to. (Those 'betters" being the "enlightened elite'", of course.) Since our civilization is a serious stumbling block to their dreams of a neo-Luddite, crypto-medieval, feudalistic world with them in charge, it just has to go.
[...]


Originally, collectivists fed their narcissism with the claim that they would produce more stuff -- that they would outperform the fat, lackadaisical bourgeoisie in efficiency and technological acumen. When Khrushchev predicted that he and his comrades would conduct the funeral of the capitalist West, this is what he meant.

They failed.

So, like Orwell's dystopia switching adversaries from Eurasia to Eastasia, they declared more stuff to be evil.

407 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:05:38pm

re: #263 avanti

What has local weather have to do with global climate change ?

Not that much, but it is still common belief that it being cold in your neck of the woods on any given day means climate change is not really happening. So we report to one another.

Right now, in Richmond, CA, it is a beautiful summer day, perhaps 65 degrees, with a nice breeze. I don't know what this means for climate change, but it's much nicer than the hideous heat we had over the weekend.

408 harpsicon  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:06:04pm

re: #346 avanti

Sure he graduated from Harvard with honors and can not read. /s

Of course none of his transcripts has ever been released - you can't even get a job as a bank branch manager without doing this, but never mind...

Back in the day (and still to a great degree) there was a bit of a scandal because EVERYBODY was graduating from Ivy League schools with honors. The excuse was that since the kids were so awesome it made sense for 70% of them to graduate with honors because they would have anywhere else.

Whatever.

Since the honor lists are a matter of public record, however, we do know that Obama, not having graduated with honors from Columbia College, was surely in the bottom half of his class.

And he gets into Harvard Law?

I guess it's like Joe Biden said, a clean, articulate minority.....

409 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:08:30pm

re: #382 iceweasel

I answered very quickly but you deserved more of an answer:


This I have to disagree with.

Fuck the Democratic party. I'm not a member. (surprise!)

"The left" does not = the democratic party. The left and progressives are pretty angry at the democrats and have been for years.

treating "the left" like it's some monolith, and like it's coextensive with the democratic party, is ridiculous. "the left" is wildly diverse and the activist left loathes the Democratic party.

Yuppers. And even on the radical fringe left, various groups hate one another's guts with a passion.

410 MPH  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:08:42pm

Two pieces from John Steele Gordon:

The Cap-and-Trade bill that passed the House yesterday will be a declaration of war on the American economy if it ever is enacted into law. It is ostensibly supposed to help the American economy transition from the old, carbon-based industrial economy to the broad, sunlit (and presumably unpolluted) uplands of a post-industrial one. According to an infomercial masquerading as an AP news story, the “climate bill may spur energy revolution.” Overlooked by the AP and other minions of the left is the fact that that revolution has been underway, largely without the federal government’s help, for more than a generation now. In 1970 a one-percent increase in GDP meant a one-percent increase in oil consumption. Today its means less than a third of one percent increase in oil consumption. It would be considerably less than that had the left not brought the development and exploitation of nuclear power to a screeching halt thirty years ago because too many of them went to see The China Syndrome. (The producers, to be sure, arranged, in a stroke of commercial genius, for the movie to open twelve days before the accident at Three-Mile Island occurred.)

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]


It seems to me that the evidence that the world has gotten warmer in the last two centuries is pretty solid. But how much of that warming is due to the natural causes that ended the “Little Ice Age,” which began about 1300 and ended in the mid-19th century? And how much is anthropogenic, due to recent industrialization? The Little Ice Age was itself preceded by the Medieval Warm Period, which lasted from around 1000 to 1300 and was certainly not anthropogenic in origin.

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

411 Sabnen  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:10:26pm

Cap and Trade . . . a new way to regulate another huge economic sector of the United States economy (even without trying to take over health-care!).

All this based on very dodgy inconclusive data. The research results cannot be replicated . . . it is tough to do with Computer Modeling, which really isn't experimental research. Just plug in numbers and turn the crank and wallah! results you can panic over! That's sooo cool! Whoops, I mean that's sooo hot!

The Goldilocks Democrats are such reactionaries! Hey turning back the clock to the good old days when global temperatures were juuusst right!

What exactly is the correct running temperature for Gaia Earth anyway? Temperatures like they were 10,000 years ago? That would only cover Canada and parts of the United States, Russia and Scandinavia in a mile thick sheet of ice! Boy, would my heating bill go up! How about 100,000 years ago? What was the temperature then? How about 2,000,000 years ago? I guess we're settling for what it was when Al 'Goldilocks' Gore was a little boy in Tennessee and everything was juuusst right back then; the 'scientifically proven' perfect temperature for Gaia Earth.

Something is not right with our democratic experiment when uninformed people elect uninformed representatives. Cap and Trade is a seriously damaging piece of legislation for our troubled economy. When you don't know what is going to happen you cannot plan and you hunker down. How much is this going to cost? Nobody knows.

Politicians, like Doctors, should take the same oath regarding their professions, 'First, do no harm.'

412 ckb  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:12:03pm

re: #394 avanti

Harvard says he graduated magna cum laude,
here.

Hardest part of Harvard: Admission

413 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:12:28pm

re: #409 SanFranciscoZionist

Yuppers. And even on the radical fringe left, various groups hate one another's guts with a passion.

Yet all right-wing extremists must be addressed by the Republican Party.

The confusion cuts both ways, but you can't have it both ways.

When leftists and/or Democrats seek to make all right-wing extremists liabilities for the Republican Party, leftists/Democrats should expect the same in return.

414 MPH  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:13:15pm

Also worth looking at the multitude of scholarly articles which indicate that the Sun, of all things, controls the earth's climate.
[Link: scholar.google.com...]

415 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:16:39pm

re: #402 sagehen

Funny how 53% of them voted for what we were told was "the most liberal member of the senate, an avowed socialist."

Then again, maybe people who are personally conservative in the way they live their own lives, and people who are politically conservative in the economic and foreign policy proposals they support, are separate groups of people with only limited overlap. Anybody who considers themselves conservative in one or the other would tell the pollster they're conservative...

Heck, if we just go by the family values/lifestyle choices yardstick, the Obamas are more conservative than the RNC, RGA or RSCC.

..

they didn't vote for him because he was a socialist.
o was a stealth candidate. his handlers ran him well.
he deceived many voters by invoking reagan and lincoln, talking tax cuts, acting like a centrist. and he had the msm running interference for him from day one,
many people never knew abt. his tainted relationships. his terrorist buddies,
his hate preacher. his middle name was declared off limits. LOL.
look for buyer's remorse. for many people he deceived.

416 Clubsec  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:21:19pm

OK lizards ... this is an oxymoron: "Renewable Energy"
Anyone who has studied and understands THERMODYNAMICS will 'get it'.
Get it?
We once had an Arizona Governor by the name of Bruce Babbitt who was testifying to congress (about CAFE standards and such) and he made the statement that the standards ought to also address electric motor efficiencies.
He made a statement that they should legislated to be 100% efficient.
So much for his degree from the University of Notre Dame which was supposedly in Physics. Humm. Perhaps the B.A. version?

417 avanti  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:26:12pm

re: #407 SanFranciscoZionist

Not that much, but it is still common belief that it being cold in your neck of the woods on any given day means climate change is not really happening. So we report to one another.

Right now, in Richmond, CA, it is a beautiful summer day, perhaps 65 degrees, with a nice breeze. I don't know what this means for climate change, but it's much nicer than the hideous heat we had over the weekend.

High 90's here in Md, thanks for the heat. :)

418 Orangutan  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:27:11pm

The Skeptical Environmentalist is an exceptional book - kudos to the original recommender on this thread.

As for Obama's records, qualifications, et al., I think this is a discussion that needs to be carefully bifurcated from the nirth certifikat garbage. We get to see everyone's paper trail - why not his? Frankly, considering his BS work record, BS Senate record, and very interesting home purchasing past, all I really know about him is he can read... as in a reading a teleprompter.

419 baier  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:29:24pm

re: #131 Russkilitlover

Nope. Businesses pass on the costs to their customers all the way down the line. It's a simple fact that always escapes Democrats and other business-bashing groups.


I agree that the consumer will suffer, but more by creating a less productive society than out of pocket expense. If two companies have similar capacity, but one is more productive and pollutes more, it will be taxed more and made less competitive on price if it tries to pass the costs on to the consumer. Where as a factory that is less productive will pay less taxes and will be able to compete, when it should not.
The whole things stinks and I guarantee if it passes, it will be soaked in corruption. There will exceptions for some companies and not others based on how essential a politicians views them to society, or by how many campaign contributions they've gotten from a lobby. Politicians are already deciding what businesses they want to survive. The entire bill itself is meant to build up reusable energy and ruin coal, oil, and gas in the first place.

420 semper gumbi  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:40:02pm

re: #417 avanti

High 90's here in Md, thanks for the heat. :)

Curious, where are you experiencing high 90's in maryland? Mid-80's seems to be the temps around the state today.

421 solomonpanting  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:40:38pm

re: #35 lawhawk

This bill ....

.... redistributes money

Of course it does. Obama was very much up front of his intentions when asked a question by Joe the Plumber:


"I want to redistribute the wealth."

422 Clubsec  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:45:35pm

Alan Carlin, B.S. Physics, California Institute of Technology (we all know it is an 'easy school' right?) and a Ph.D in Economics from MIT (another pushover school).
When sitting in the higher level math classes (ODE's, Advanced Engineering Mathematics, Number Theory, Linear Algebra, Numerical Analysis, etc.) you'd get to know those around you. And it was common that the class was populated by either physics (me) or engineering students. The occasional Chem major was found to be indulging in things beyond the Calculus sequence. BUT ... the only majors I ever encountered in upper level math classes (omitting the math majors, duh) that were not from the 'core science' disciplines were the occasional Economics majors. Interesting.

423 saxking20  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:50:58pm

Where was everyone when the vote came down on Friday? So we let this crazy piece of legislation pass, no thanks to 8 Republicans, and now we're left with trying to stop it in the Senate. A huge majority on LGF know that this bill is a piece of crap.
Everything is going to be forced to go up in price which makes us less competitive in the world markets. We are shooting ourselves in the foot or most likely feet......
We are being governed by "The gang that couldn't shoot straight."
It's going to be jobs, jobs, jobs alright-most of the jobs will be standing in line at the unemployment office.
CALL YOUR SENATOR!

424 huckfunn  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:51:36pm

It would be impossible for Alexis Madrigal to offer a "balanced" view of crap and tax as he is totally in the tank for the man-made global warming hoax. Madrigal states in the third paragraph of this piece:

the carbon dioxide emissions that scientists believe cause global warming.


Never an inkling that there is a vigorous debate as to the whole question of climate change. Typical left-coastie journalism.

425 huckfunn  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:52:47pm

I don't know why that last part came out bold and indented.

426 Clubsec  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 2:55:23pm

Avanti?
I'll wager the physics major from CIT knows a LOT more about atmospheric physics and thermodynamics than you do. AND I'll bet his Ph.D in Economics from MIT allows him to trump any analysis skills you might posess. Am I right or am I right?

427 Basho  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 3:06:31pm

If the Heritage Foundation doesn't like it then it's gotta be good. Way to go, House!

428 Spartacus50  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 3:08:44pm

There simply are no PROS to this bill.

429 jackflash  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 3:21:34pm

I generally agree with your characterizations, Charles, but I must respectfully disagree with yours here. This is not a balanced article at all - it is clear that the writer likes this bill and the whole concept of cap and trade. I thought she might include something about how it hasn't affected GHG levels in Europe, or how it's increased prices there significantly (but hard to measure). I'm an economist, and I should like these sort of "market solutions," but the bottom line is that the "cap" stage of this process is a politically-determined constraint, and there is no indication that costs are in any way offset by benefits under this program. I'd like to see something a little more technical analysis of how this market is going to work, and who will likely be the largest beneficiaries. I regulate energy utilities (or my Commission does) and if they're OK with this, it means they think they will make a lot of money with this. Bad idea, I think.

430 jvic  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 3:22:07pm

re: #165 harpsicon

re: #418 Orangutan

The Skeptical Environmentalist is an exceptional book - kudos to the original recommender on this thread

Lomborg's compatriots on the left viewed his book's intellectual honesty as a crime and tried to destroy him.

He has also written "Global Crises, Global Solutions: Costs and Benefits", which tries to prioritize global warming among other issues facing humanity; a new edition is in the works. His "Cool It: The Skeptical Environmentalist's Guide to Global Warming" is in the bargain bin at Amazon. I just ordered a copy.

431 jayzee  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 3:25:09pm

I don't see the balance in the piece. The only thing approaching criticism of the bill is to say:
1) It may not do enough
2) It may be less or more costly than anticipated

I have no doubt, after speaking to my congressman's office today, that it will be more costly.
clerk: you know what the GAO said about the cost?
me: about a buck seventy five a year
clerk: more or less ADJUSTED FOR INCOME
me: excellent

My congressman voted for the bill.

432 jvic  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 3:48:46pm

Incidentally, China is now the world's biggest CO2 emitter.

It's our fault, of course:

West blamed for rapid increase in China's CO2

Blamed by Westerners, of course. Unbelievable.

433 Bagua  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 4:00:28pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

Or they could laugh their asses off at us. What incentive do they have to curb their emissions? What consequences do they face if they don't?

My guess is none and none. We're shooting ourselves in the foot in the hopes others will too.

It should be noted that the "Europeans" have consistently agreed these measures, and then never lived up to their commitments, on the contrary, all the while they are denouncing the evil Americans who do not agree the measures, and yet have in fact made reductions that they have not.

But let's not let facts get in the way of pretending to save the Polar Bears!

434 Bagua  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 4:05:42pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Without it our financial infrastructure would be in ruins. It worked, the banks are starting to pay back. Credit markets haven't loosened up enough yet but it stabalized the economy that was in free fall after the collapse of Leehman Bros.

Nonsense

435 VioletTiger  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 4:25:50pm

re: #19 Zimriel

I can't say what's in the bill. I can say that the bill never should have made it to the floor. It's an abuse of procedure for the House to pass a bill with "placeholders" in it, and a betrayal of trust for individual members to vote "yea" on something they hain't read.

Iain Murray proposes a Constitutional Amendment. Call it the Anti-Ignorant-Fool Amendment:

Wow. I just heard this afternoon that there were PLACEHOLDERS in this bill! I am even more outraged. It is a dam disgrace!

436 tveitskog  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 4:54:28pm

I’m very concerned about the cost of energy needed to produce food. We presently have the best and the most efficient food system in the world. And from what I’ve read and heard on this cap and trade bill it seems the politicians could throw a monkey wrench into our food system. Can you imagine going into your local grocery store and seeing empty shelves where once the shelves where overflowing? The country folks will probably have to do back to the barter system and subsistence farming and I don’t know what city folk are going to do. They will probably have to beg for government food that comes from Mexico, China, or India.

437 YankeeBoy  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 5:57:54pm

"That level of uncertainty could be carried across the rest of the bill. One major argument in favor of passing the climate bill is that it will make international climate negotiations in Copenhagen later this year easier. If the U.S. is leading on the issue, China and India could institute greenhouse gas curbs of their own."

Yea...right.

sarc

438 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 7:30:07pm

I didn't know there were two people with the last name "Markey" in the house.

439 loup-garou  Mon, Jun 29, 2009 9:23:41pm

cap and trade ?
ITS A TRAP!

440 Ezekiel2517  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 10:47:16am

I predict that the passage of Cap and Trade will have an enormous ripple effect. Before too long, we'll all be drinking Ripple.

441 docremulac  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 9:24:14pm

Cap and trade is going to do exactly what it's supposed to: squash the hated middle and working classes while funding the "above-having-to-work" class.

Everybody will get hit but the upper crust liberals behind this won't be effected. They'll still have their private jets and fleets of luxury cars but the hated "soccer mom / working man" class will have to give up the good life that the people behind this legislation feel is reserved for them and them alone.

An example of this mindset: when liberals talk about everybody taking public transportation, they aren't talking about taking it themselves, that's for you "prolls" out there. In another example, Hillary once smugly bragged about how she would have no problem paying the additional taxes she was proposing. Oh, you can't afford to own a home if your goods, services and paycheck are taxed into the stratosphere? Tough luck looser. You should have been a rich liberal like me. Serves you right.

If they can ruin the economy and destroy everybody's lives, their wealth and power will be thrown into sharp contrast with the rest of the rabble they feel is so below them. Hey, what's the point of being rich if everybody else isn't miserable? And if with the same stroke, they can get their lavish lifestyles paid for, well, this bill is the perfect storm.

Liberals want two classes, the leadership class (them) and the ward class. (everybody else) Smart ass, uppity, red state, right winger, SUV driving middle class people have got to know their place, which is paying for the lifestyle of their betters.

They don't give a damn about the environment or any real solutions to replacing fossil fuels with alternatives. Christ, they even admit nuclear power would clean up the environment then quickly change the subject BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY MONEY.

Just because the goal is noble, that doesn't mean the huckster who says he's the only one who knows how to achieve it is noble as well. On the contrary, the biggest scam artists are out there peddling salvation in one form or another. We need a clean energy strategy and the first step is firing the scum-bags who have adopted this cause as their own scam.

442 Optimizer  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 10:20:10pm
...the carbon dioxide emissions that scientists believe cause global warming.

Total AGW Kool-Aid drinker. Ironically, he's a "denier" regarding the fact that this claim is controversial.

Oil and coal exploration and mining have been and continue to be supported by government surveys of mineral resources. Indirect subsidies abound, too. A recent RAND study estimated that the 12-15 percent of the military budget could be saved if we relied less on oil from the Persian Gulf.

If this guy wasn't such a certifiable moonbat, I'd suggest, "you've got to be kidding!"

...if global oil and natural gas prices spike — and this bill has generated substantial investments in alternatives — then it will seem like a great idea, regardless of the legislation’s impact on the country’s carbon dioxide emissions.

Um, regardless of the "global" price, it's going to get real expensive for US. And the idea that this will "seem like a good idea" presupposes that those "substantial investments" pay off soon (unlikely), and that they will somehow make us forget the substantial cost involved (it ain't gonna be no $175, folks!). It is literally impossible for some cheap alternative to show up in the kind of timeframe suggested. It's Leftist ObamaWorld fantasy talk.

One major argument in favor of passing the climate bill is that it will make international climate negotiations in Copenhagen later this year easier.

This pre-supposes that trying to talk other countries into damaging their own economies for the sake of a fictitious and insignificant drop in global temperature is a good thing.

"Balanced"? Was that sarcasm?

443 Optimizer  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 10:42:33pm

re: #434 Bagua

Nonsense

I hate to tell ya, but Killgore's right on this one. According to my favorite financial author (Luskin) - who is an EXTREMELY staunch capitalist, and a "small-l" libertarian to boot, TARP was necessary and essential. There are plenty of things to question (like "why so much", and "what happens to the money paid back?") and criticize (the totalitarian forcing of some banks to take it, and dictating executive compensation, etc.), to be sure. But the irony is that people say "look, we spent all that TARP money, and NOTHING HAPPENED!" They're implying that this means "it didn't work" when the whole idea was to keep the system afloat when it was about to collapse. Since the financial system didn't collapse, TARP SUCCEEDED. Unlike everything else that's been rushed through Congress lately, THAT ONE actually WAS an emergency.

Last I heard, the banks were paying it back, and the govt was collecting interest on the money. If Chairman Obama doesn't get his grubby hands on the money being repaid, and do something stupid with it (which would be a "given"), this is looking like a happy ending to a very scary story might be in the works. After a stream of screw-ups, the financial people in the govt finally got it right.

444 Walter E. Wallis  Wed, Jul 1, 2009 3:51:41pm

Buy stock in rickshaws.


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