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Krauthammer: The Ricci Case and Affirmative Action

Opinion | Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:49:06 am PDT

Charles Krauthammer on The Meaning of the Ricci Case.

The major conundrum of the civil rights age remains. The 14th Amendment bans discrimination on the basis of race. But the Civil Rights Act, which bans “disparate impact” discrimination — procedures (such as exams) that yield racially unbalanced results — affirmatively mandates racial favoritism to undo those results. The evil day will come, writes Justice Antonin Scalia in his concurrence, when this contradiction will have to be resolved.

He is right. For decades we have been finessing the issue with a mess of compromises, euphemisms, incoherences and pretenses such as banning racial quotas but promoting racial “goals.” Anyone who has ever had to make hiring or admission decisions knows that this angel-on-the-head-of-pin distinction is 95 percent a matter of appearances, gestures and lawsuit-avoiding paperwork.

And yet we have muddled our way through, permitting a large dose of intentional discrimination to ameliorate past discrimination — and present inadvertent imbalances — without totally abandoning the ideal of colorblindness.

The result? At the near half-century mark of the Civil Rights Act, racial minorities have seen remarkable social advancement. The younger generation is infinitely more racially tolerant and accepting. We’ve made great racial progress. But the fundamental unfairness that underlies the racial spoils system continues to rankle. That’s what animated the Ricci case.

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198 comments

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1 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:50:41am

Affirmative Action should have ended with election of Obama.

2 saberry0530  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:51:03am

CAAA CHING!

3 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:51:26am

He is right. For decades we have been finessing the issue with a mess of compromises, euphemisms, incoherences and pretenses

fed speak...code for bullshit blabbola

4 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:52:52am

It's been heavy on the incoherences.

5 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:54:34am

Racist!

6 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:55:59am

re: #1 BatGuano

Affirmative Action should have ended with election of Obama.

Why, we still don't have a black man as president, or has everyone already forgot? :)

7 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:56:10am

Affirmative Action is code for acceptable racism. Most of the left supports it, but how angry thery get if someone points out that is why a minority was selected for whatever.

The cause must be seen, the effects must be ignored.

8 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:56:31am

I spent 22 years in the restaurant industry. I can't find a job to save my life. I even tried McDonalds. Funny, around here, most McDonald employees can't speak english. And I ain't kidding.

9 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:56:45am

re: #6 Walter L. Newton

Why, we still don't have a black man as president, or has everyone already forgot? :)

He's half Caucasian.

10 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:57:34am

re: #9 MandyManners
Half Chicagoian is a better description.

11 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:57:46am

re: #9 MandyManners

He's half Caucasian.

/Shhhhh!

12 Wendya  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:58:01am

re: #9 MandyManners

He's half Caucasian.

And 100% nuts.

13 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:58:27am

re: #11 BatGuano
if that really is your name...the question remains which half?..

14 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:58:30am
15 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:59:09am

I predict an incoming meltdown.

16 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 9:59:19am

re: #11 BatGuano
Us movie handle guys have to stick together

17 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:00:00am

re: #13 quiet man

if that really is your name...the question remains which half?..

I wouldn't touch that one with a Rasmussen poll.

18 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:00:08am

We're 45 years beyond passage of the Civil Rights Act. We have a black attorney general and a black president. As with every passing year we move generationally away from the era of Jim Crow, it becomes less and less justified for the government to mandate "remedial" racial discrimination.


reparations would put the issue to rest...I assume?

19 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:00:34am

re: #15 unrealizedviewpoint
Unfortunately, I agree with you..That meltdown will come much faster after Obama bails out the sick states and the even sicker government news services like the NYTs

20 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:00:36am

Well, as long as merit isn't a factor, we'll continue along the path downward.

21 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:01:33am

re: #6 Walter L. Newton

Why, we still don't have a black man as president, or has everyone already forgot? :)

not me...I just quit hounding on it...all this racial talk, but oddly nobody seems interested in the blind truth do they?

22 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:02:41am

re: #16 quiet man

Us movie handle guys have to stick together

Damn straight!

23 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:02:54am

There may have been a time and place for race-based affirmative action, but we are well past that time and place. I am not anti-affirmative action, per se, but think it should be based on economics, not skin pigmentation. Interestingly, from what I have seen, the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action aren't disenfranchised poor minorities, they end up being (at least with school admissions) those who come from middle class or higher homes.

Economics is really what is at the root of affirmative action. That is what groups like Blacks and Latinos benefit from affirmative action whereas other groups (who also suffer discrimination and bigotry) like Asians and Jews do not. Jews and Asians (as a group) are economically very successful whereas Blacks and Latinos are not. But the problem is that individuals are not groups. An individual Asian or White may have grown up with huge disadvantages whereas an individual Black or Latino may not.

Economic based affirmative action uses a scalpel instead of a shotgun.

24 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:03:07am
25 pegcity  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:03:19am

re: #8 Cannadian Club Akbar

I spent 22 years in the restaurant industry. I can't find a job to save my life. I even tried McDonalds. Funny, around here, most McDonald employees can't speak english. And I ain't kidding.

tell me about it, i tried ordering a cheese burger with no pickles the other day,took 5 minutes for the newly immigrated women from India to take my order

26 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:06:22am

re: #14 buzzsawmonkey

The concluding paragraph:

Slowly, surely, people are beginning to speak the truth; that the Civil Rights Movement, as a civil rights movement, ended 45 years ago. The rest has been jostling for a preferred place at the trough.

That's not even what Krauthammer thinks. See the penultimate paragraph:

As with every passing year we move generationally away from the era of Jim Crow, it becomes less and less justified for the government to mandate "remedial" racial discrimination. Which is why Justice Sandra Day O'Connor in one of her last opinions wrote that "the Court expects that 25 years from now, the use of racial preferences will no longer be necessary."

Affirmative Action had a place after the end of Jim Crow; very soon SCOTUS expects it will no longer, and already it is needed less than it was.

27 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:06:38am

re: #21 albusteve

not me...I just quit hounding on it...all this racial talk, but oddly nobody seems interested in the blind truth do they?

Sorry I'm not posting responses quicker. I'm still having problems with LGF, or at least with the pipes that talk to LGF server and me. Charles says he is aware of the situation, but it appears that it happens to certain people, somewhere along the information highway, not due to his actual server. He says he has his provider looking into the traffic to see if they can see something.

It take 20-30 seconds for me to get "new comment," longer for front page (up to 4 minutes).

Only happens on when I request something from LGF. All other sites come in and render in a second or less.

So, I'm not posting as much right now. Which may be a relief to some here :)

28 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:07:27am

Nobody should be discriminated against due to shades of skin pigmentation. One can either do the job required or not. One can either pass the tests required or not.

29 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:08:10am

re: #23 Enkidu90046

I don't think we need economic-based affirmative action. College admissions take into account if an applicant went to a poor school, rural or urban, and had limited access to AP class and other extras. They look at how well a person did given their circumstances. Once admitted, anyone from a less affluent family will be showered with financial aid. At Harvard and Yale, for example, tuition is basically free to anyone from a family making less than $65K a year. I would prefer to see everything be done completely on a merit basis.

30 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:08:16am

Why is there still a Congressional Black Caucus? Change one word and there'd be street riots.

/racism works in mysterious ways

31 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:08:27am

If we really need affirmative action I want more short, fat, white basketball players.

32 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:08:33am

re: #28 rightymouse

Nobody should be discriminated against due to shades of skin pigmentation. One can either do the job required or not. One can either pass the tests required or not.

In the real world. We currently live in obamaland.

33 pat  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:08:56am

I am sure you saw Obama yesterday say that race allocated affirmative action was far from dead. He intends to pursue it vigorously.

34 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:09:23am

#25 pegcity

tell me about it, i tried ordering a cheese burger with no pickles the other day,took 5 minutes for the newly immigrated women from India to take my order

You thought you were talking to a newly immigrated woman, but actually you were talking to someone in India - they're now outsourcing order-taking.

/

35 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:09:34am

re: #29 doppelganglander
I can see that..equal opportunity based on possible opportunity is better than one based on race alone. Race has nothing to do with it.

36 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:10:12am

re: #30 Killian Bundy
I couldnt take a Senate black caucus either!

37 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:10:12am

Another problem I have with race-based affirmative action is that I believe it actually creates a form of racism. I have two examples of that. First was a doctor who was a friend of my family. That man told me that he would never let a black doctor treat him. This shocked me because the man was anything but a racist from what I knew. But he explained it as saying that his experience in medical school was the the blacks who were there were there due to affirmative action and were by and large struggling in medical school.

The second example I have is when I was in law school. I was having a discussion with a few black law students about race based affirmative action and my opposition to it and why I think it actually creates racism. I asked one of the black law students where he was from. Turns out he was from an upper middle class home. He attended an Ivy League college and graduated with honors, did very well on his LSAT and was here in a top 20 law school with me. I explained to him that it must be someone insulting then to have a lot of people look at him, someone who clearly earned everything he got, that a number of people would look at his skin color and assume that he was only there because of affirmative action.

38 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:10:28am

re: #32 VegasRick

In the real world. We currently live in obamaland.

And the left is focusing more on skin pigmentation than usual. Go figure.

39 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:10:47am

I have always understood the need for something that will help give minorities a helping hand up. But I cannot make that leap when it comes to discrimination.
It is, quite simply, morally wrong to discriminate against anyone because of their race, gender, ethnicity, sexual preference or age. And, of course, discrimiating in favor of one group or groups is clearly discriminating against another group or groups.

40 Gang of One  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:10:56am

And who says we have to make every workplace or gummint-mule office "reflect" the population by its ethnic/racial breakdown? The ideas liberals come up with ...

41 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:11:04am

re: #8 Cannadian Club Akbar

I spent 22 years in the restaurant industry. I can't find a job to save my life. I even tried McDonalds. Funny, around here, most McDonald employees can't speak english. And I ain't kidding.

Odd, that. Around here, restaurant business seems to be booming. We went out to eat a couple of weeks ago, and wound up coming back home because there was literally nowhere to park in the downtown area, and the restaurants we passed on the way back all had lines out the door.

I assume it's because people are going out to eat in place of more expensive entertainments, like travel.

I'm talking about sit-down, privately owned restaurants, too - not chains. Maybe there's a difference there, as well.

My son got a job as a line cook for the summer, and he's consistently working overtime. The owner is bitching because he can't find enough people to hire to cover all his stations, although it should be said that he's pretty fussy about who he hires. But still, restaurants seem to be doing well, at least around here.

42 Thanos  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:11:07am

Krauthammer is on spot with this one, it's time to retire quotas.

43 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:11:22am

re: #30 Killian Bundy

Why is there still a Congressional Black Caucus? Change one word and there'd be street riots.

/racism works in mysterious ways

The white entertainment network and the church selling the white work ethic -- what happened there?

44 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:11:24am

re: #38 rightymouse

And the left is focusing more on skin pigmentation than usual. Go figure.

I'm working on my tan.

45 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:12:20am

re: #40 Gang of One

So true. "looks" are the least of important variables.

Even at Hooters!

46 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:12:26am

re: #37 Enkidu90046
Well

The second example I have is when I was in law school. I was having a discussion with a few black law students about race based affirmative action and my opposition to it and why I think it actually creates racism. I asked one of the black law students where he was from. Turns out he was from an upper middle class home. He attended an Ivy League college and graduated with honors, did very well on his LSAT and was here in a top 20 law school with me. I explained to him that it must be someone insulting then to have a lot of people look at him, someone who clearly earned everything he got, that a number of people would look at his skin color and assume that he was only there because of affirmative action.


What was his response?

47 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:12:27am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

I am entirely bummed...but if I want to bitch at you I'll just call...sharmuta seems to have the same problem and a few others...there is a problem somewhere

48 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:12:44am

re: #37 Enkidu90046

Those are both very good examples. Affirmative action taints the achievement of every black (Latino, etc.) it intends to help. I think it's responsible for a lot of the hatred toward Clarence Thomas. No matter how many years he proves himself on the Supreme Court, some people will always think less of him.

49 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:12:56am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

"So, I'm not posting as much right now. Which may be a relief to some here :)"

Not me. Type faster! :)

50 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:12:57am

I think the real issue is how the education system fails certain segments of our society with it's continuing march towards fairness and the dumbing down of education on the whole. Kids need to be challenged, and they even crave it, but the standards are now set up as to not hurt anyone's feelings. When these kids graduate, they're not able to compete in the real world, and we get situation like this- where hiring based off tests can show the glaring issue of how the minds involved were failed by their education. I believe President Bush called it the "soft bigotry of low expectations". He was exactly right about that. I don't think no child left behind was necessarily the answer, but he certainly pegged the problem. It culminates in things like Ricci.

51 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:13:13am

re: #46 realwest

He still disagreed with me, but did understand my point.

52 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:13:22am

re: #44 VegasRick

I'm working on my tan.

Bad VegasRick. Bad. :)

53 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:13:51am

re: #46 realwest

so true, why wouldn't it be insulting? He earned what he had achieved

just like a man needs to do.

54 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:14:13am

re: #38 rightymouse
Hey there righty! How are you doing today?

55 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:14:35am

re: #28 rightymouse

Nobody should be discriminated against due to shades of skin pigmentation. One can either do the job required or not. One can either pass the tests required or not.

nope...gotta talk it to death for a few decades...intellectual nuance may even continue for a century or so....billions of words to repeat

56 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:14:43am

re: #37 Enkidu90046

I explained to him that it must be someone insulting then to have a lot of people look at him, someone who clearly earned everything he got, that a number of people would look at his skin color and assume that he was only there because of affirmative action.

No offense, but I seriously doubt he needed that 'explained' to him. Women and minorities in schools/professions that have tended to exclude them are very familiar with everyone assuming they're some sort of affirmative action hire.

57 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:15:04am
Anyone who has ever had to make hiring or admission decisions knows that this angel-on-the-head-of-pin distinction is 95 percent a matter of appearances, gestures and lawsuit-avoiding paperwork.

Very true.

58 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:15:14am

re: #41 SixDegrees

Odd, that. Around here, restaurant business seems to be booming. We went out to eat a couple of weeks ago, and wound up coming back home because there was literally nowhere to park in the downtown area, and the restaurants we passed on the way back all had lines out the door.

I assume it's because people are going out to eat in place of more expensive entertainments, like travel.

I'm talking about sit-down, privately owned restaurants, too - not chains. Maybe there's a difference there, as well.

My son got a job as a line cook for the summer, and he's consistently working overtime. The owner is bitching because he can't find enough people to hire to cover all his stations, although it should be said that he's pretty fussy about who he hires. But still, restaurants seem to be doing well, at least around here.


I looked at a place to open my own. It was very small, in a store front. The unit and the one next to it were already rented. New place knocked out a wall and made the place a pretty good size. And they are doing crap for sales. Plus,getting the money for my own place isn't easy.

59 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:15:28am

re: #52 rightymouse

Bad VegasRick. Bad. :)

Solly, BBL.

60 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:15:33am

re: #56 iceweasel
The assumption should be, "Wow, that guy is doing great!"

61 happycamper  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:15:34am

I want to see the questions on the fire fighter's exam that benefit a white person at the expense of a beige, brown, yellow, purple, or black person. Has anybody even seen any of the questions? Seems like an obvious thing to show if you want to demonstrate "disparate impact".

62 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:15:35am

re: #50 Sharmuta

Sharm, are you having the same problem as I am, 20-30 second response time in posting or retrieving new comments?

63 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:15:36am

re: #25 pegcity

tell me about it, i tried ordering a cheese burger with no pickles the other day,took 5 minutes for the newly immigrated women from India to take my order

Cheeseburger?

64 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:16:07am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

Sorry I'm not posting responses quicker. I'm still having problems with LGF, or at least with the pipes that talk to LGF server and me. Charles says he is aware of the situation, but it appears that it happens to certain people, somewhere along the information highway, not due to his actual server. He says he has his provider looking into the traffic to see if they can see something.

It take 20-30 seconds for me to get "new comment," longer for front page (up to 4 minutes).

Only happens on when I request something from LGF. All other sites come in and render in a second or less.

So, I'm not posting as much right now. Which may be a relief to some here :)

I know you've received advice on this topic already, but has anyone suggested traceroute? There are lots of versions of it available - a decent one is at [Link: visualroute.visualware.com...] but Google will turn up others. It tracks the time and number of hops your requests experience on their travels, which might help pinpoint a slow server or at least give more information on comparative loading speed relative to other sites.

65 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:16:20am

re: #53 quiet man
Well, please see my #39; I'd think that he'd be deeply offended at the IDEA of affirmative action.

66 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:16:52am

re: #49 BatGuano

I am cracking up at your screen name.

That is one of my favorite movies and I just put it on my netflix queue because my girlfriend has never seen the movie. And that is one VERY YOUNG James Earl Jones!

67 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:17:29am

re: #54 realwest

Hey there righty! How are you doing today?


I'd be better if it would quit raining!

How are you?

68 quiet man  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:17:54am

re: #63 MandyManners


69 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:18:02am

re: #56 iceweasel

No offense, but I seriously doubt he needed that 'explained' to him. Women and minorities in schools/professions that have tended to exclude them are very familiar with everyone assuming they're some sort of affirmative action hire.

Perhaps they are, but it only served to prove my point that race-based affirmative action can actually create a form of racism.

70 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:18:18am

re: #58 Cannadian Club Akbar

I looked at a place to open my own. It was very small, in a store front. The unit and the one next to it were already rented. New place knocked out a wall and made the place a pretty good size. And they are doing crap for sales. Plus,getting the money for my own place isn't easy.

Yeah, all that money that's been poured into the banking system doesn't seem to have unfrozen lending even a little bit, has it?

71 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:18:22am

re: #61 happycamper

I want to see the questions on the fire fighter's exam that benefit a white person at the expense of a beige, brown, yellow, purple, or black person. Has anybody even seen any of the questions? Seems like an obvious thing to show if you want to demonstrate "disparate impact".

That's a very good point. From what I've heard, even the other firefighters admit that the ones who do well on the exam are the guys who are really into it and read journals and such in their free time. Basically, it's a matter of having good reading comprehension and the willingness to study. If someone has poor reading comprehension due to attending a crappy school, he can remedy that with tutoring. But hey, it's a lot easier to whine about how unfair the exam is.

72 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:19:16am

re: #48 doppelganglander

Those are both very good examples. Affirmative action taints the achievement of every black (Latino, etc.) it intends to help. I think it's responsible for a lot of the hatred toward Clarence Thomas. No matter how many years he proves himself on the Supreme Court, some people will always think less of him.

The hatred of Clarence Thomas comes from the left. He is conservative and stood up to the the left during his confirmation hearings. Since then he has distinguished himself as Jurist who understands the Constitution.

73 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:19:28am

How come there are no programs in place to benefit Asians? I mean, they are a minority right?

74 DistantThunder  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:19:38am

Obama was quoted as saying that we will need affirmative action until poverty is solved....which means never.

I find it interesting that the Hispanic in the case got the shaft too. Talk about a cruel outcome. Who will want to work with blacks, Hipanics or transgendered knowing that every employment dispute will factor in the state of the protected minority?

It's like playing in a basketball league in which the referee can change the rules, and play on the team of his choice.

75 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:20:36am

re: #73 Racer X

How come there are no programs in place to benefit Asians? I mean, they are a minority right?

Because Asians, as a group, are financially successful.

76 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:21:01am

re: #28 rightymouse

Nobody should be discriminated against due to shades of skin pigmentation. One can either do the job required or not. One can either pass the tests required or not.

One would think!

77 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:21:55am

re: #72 BatGuano

The hatred of Clarence Thomas comes from the left. He is conservative and stood up to the the left during his confirmation hearings. Since then he has distinguished himself as Jurist who understands the Constitution.

Agreed. But the left is not above slamming him as an affirmative action baby. Harry Reid's comments about Thomas's writing abilities are the most recent example I can think of. I also recall a lot of nasty comments at his confirmation hearing about it, when they weren't talking about Coke cans.

78 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:22:07am

re: #70 SixDegrees

Yeah, all that money that's been poured into the banking system doesn't seem to have unfrozen lending even a little bit, has it?

I worked for a guy who is in the biz. He also has a 63 foot Hatteras ( boat ) I would go to him first for money. To many people try to open restaurants who have never worked in one and that is why they fail.

79 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:22:51am

re: #75 Enkidu90046

Because Asians, as a group, are financially successful.

But all those poor Vietnamese people who came over with nothing but the shirt on their backs, they all needed special programs right?

/yes I'm being facetious.

80 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:23:01am

re: #73 Racer X

How come there are no programs in place to benefit Asians? I mean, they are a minority right?

asians don't need any extra attention...they get it done nicely on their own and would probably be insulted otherwise imo

81 DistantThunder  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:23:12am

re: #37 Enkidu90046

Another problem I have with race-based affirmative action is that I believe it actually creates a form of racism. I have two examples of that. First was a doctor who was a friend of my family. That man told me that he would never let a black doctor treat him. This shocked me because the man was anything but a racist from what I knew. But he explained it as saying that his experience in medical school was the the blacks who were there were there due to affirmative action and were by and large struggling in medical school.

The second example I have is when I was in law school. I was having a discussion with a few black law students about race based affirmative action and my opposition to it and why I think it actually creates racism. I asked one of the black law students where he was from. Turns out he was from an upper middle class home. He attended an Ivy League college and graduated with honors, did very well on his LSAT and was here in a top 20 law school with me. I explained to him that it must be someone insulting then to have a lot of people look at him, someone who clearly earned everything he got, that a number of people would look at his skin color and assume that he was only there because of affirmative action.

Excellent points. Would you let an affirmative-action eligible doctor operate on your child? See, that's the irony. If we know the system is skewed in certain areas it really, really matters.

82 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:23:23am

re: #51 Enkidu90046

He still disagreed with me, but did understand my point.

I'm afraid I don't understand that. How could he understand your point and yet disagree with you?
BTW, when I graduated from a top 20 Law School - Ivy League, doncha know, Affirmative Action had really just hit law schools. We had a LOT more women in my entering class (our class sizes were limited to 165 while Harvard's class sizes were 550 or so, so it was somewhat easier to see in our law school) than in the preceding two classes. We also had a few more Black American students than the preceding two classes. For some reason, the women (who were, btw, all White) didn't seem to even consider that they might have been the beneficiaries of AA, whereas all of the Black students felt that they were "branded" with Affirmative Action, even though they probably would have been admitted to our law school anyway.
I did feel badly for them, but as I said in my #39, I think discrimination is just WRONG no matter what the motivations may be.

83 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:23:35am

re: #67 rightymouse

I'd be better if it would quit raining!

How are you?

Rain?

84 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:23:45am

re: #66 Enkidu90046

I'm glad you like the movie and see the humor. I thought Keenan Wynn's deadpan portrayal was classic.

85 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:23:52am
86 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:23:55am

re: #73 Racer X

How come there are no programs in place to benefit Asians? I mean, they are a minority right?

At Berkeley, they are trying to change admissions standards to keep Asians out. Asians currently represent about 40% of the student body, mainly because they work their asses off.

87 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:24:14am

re: #69 Enkidu90046

Perhaps they are, but it only served to prove my point that race-based affirmative action can actually create a form of racism.

I disagree. You're assuming it creates racism where there would be none. There's no reason to think that.

This is something that happens in very competitive schools and professions: people are always trying to get ahead of one another, always measuring how good the others are. Any time you have a woman or a minority in there, in my experience, some people assume it's because they're a woman or a minority.
Which is the simply the flip side of the racism AA was implemented to prevent: the assumption that women/minorities aren't as competent/skilled/deserving.

Meet the new shit, same as the old shit.

88 Wendya  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:24:58am

re: #74 DistantThunder

Who will want to work with blacks, Hipanics or transgendered knowing that every employment dispute will factor in the state of the protected minority?

More importantly, how often does race figure into hiring when the company fears hiring a minority candidate because of the threat of litigation in the future if that employee feels they are not being treated fairly? It's easier not to let someone in the door than to fight them once they are in.

89 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:25:05am

re: #74 DistantThunder

Obama was quoted as saying that we will need affirmative action until poverty is solved....which means never.

I find it interesting that the Hispanic in the case got the shaft too. Talk about a cruel outcome. Who will want to work with blacks, Hipanics or transgendered knowing that every employment dispute will factor in the state of the protected minority?

It's like playing in a basketball league in which the referee can change the rules, and play on the team of his choice.

Doesn't he know that there was poverty throughout Europe while it was all white? That there was poverty in Africa before any white folks stepped foot there?

90 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:25:24am

re: #79 Racer X

But all those poor Vietnamese people who came over with nothing but the shirt on their backs, they all needed special programs right?

/yes I'm being facetious.

Yes, but you are also making a good point... race-based affirmative action benefits many people who don't need benefits and ignores people who are truly disadvantaged all based on the very inaccurate categorization of "race".

91 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:25:55am

re: #64 SixDegrees

I know you've received advice on this topic already, but has anyone suggested traceroute? There are lots of versions of it available - a decent one is at [Link: visualroute.visualware.com...] but Google will turn up others. It tracks the time and number of hops your requests experience on their travels, which might help pinpoint a slow server or at least give more information on comparative loading speed relative to other sites.

This product looks like a standard ping tracer that show the nodes it's hitting. That's not what I need. When I hit "new comments" a PHP script runs on MY end to get those new comments, that what I need to trace, that request. A product like this doesn't allow me to trace that actual PHP function request.

I've done a standard ping, and a ping test comes back fine, about 23ms round trip. It's when I actually request data from LGF, and what seems to be coming in slowest is graphics from LGF.

I'm using Safari. I've turned off virus scan and firewall, no difference. Same thing happens with IE. I've turned the developers menu on in Safari and looked at the functions and items loading, and there is a latency of 17 to 28 seconds on almost EVERY process (PHP function) executed and graphic requested.

This happens with NO other site, no matter how intensive the site is, I get them in under 2 seconds.

Charles says Hosting Matters is looking into it.

92 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:27:16am

re: #85 buzzsawmonkey


It was to placate these that affirmative action was created--after the Civil Rights Movement had won its civil rights victories.

The Civil Rights Movement alone was insufficient to address all issues involving the perniciousness of racism and racial inequity, esp in the areas of education and hiring. Hence affirmative action, hence SCOTUS's own upholding of it.

It's worth noting, as O'Connor did in that opinion, that AA was never intended to be something permanent and still is not intended to be permanent.

93 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:27:44am

re: #67 rightymouse
I'm just fine, thanks! Bright and sunny, temps in the mid 80's! I do hope you're doing well - despite your weather!

94 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:27:54am

re: #87 iceweasel

I disagree. You're assuming it creates racism where there would be none. There's no reason to think that.

This is something that happens in very competitive schools and professions: people are always trying to get ahead of one another, always measuring how good the others are. Any time you have a woman or a minority in there, in my experience, some people assume it's because they're a woman or a minority.
Which is the simply the flip side of the racism AA was implemented to prevent: the assumption that women/minorities aren't as competent/skilled/deserving.

Meet the new shit, same as the old shit.

AA creates and promotes discrimination....that's what it's supposed to do and it is very effective

95 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:28:05am
96 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:28:11am

re: #79 Racer X

But all those poor Vietnamese people who came over with nothing but the shirt on their backs, they all needed special programs right?

/yes I'm being facetious.

I know for a fact that there were several programs here in Canada for the "boat people". From what I saw though, they just used it as a step up. Never saw that many on the welfare rolls afterwards at all. Unlike most of my fellow Canadians that had stated at times that the gubernment owed them a living.

97 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:28:22am

re: #86 doppelganglander

At Berkeley, they are trying to change admissions standards to keep Asians out. Asians currently represent about 40% of the student body, mainly because they work their asses off.

I think UCLA imposed similar limits on Asians as well.

My point is this is a cultural thing. It has nothing to do with skin color. Some cultures just demand their kids work their asses off to be successful. Not every single family, but in general.

98 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:28:36am

re: #81 DistantThunder

Excellent points. Would you let an affirmative-action eligible doctor operate on your child? See, that's the irony. If we know the system is skewed in certain areas it really, really matters.

The point is also that, with the existence of race-based affirmative action, you don't know whether your doctor black doctor is an affirmative action case or not, so you will err on the side of safety and opt for a doctor where the odds are better that he or she is capable. The black doctor in question may very well have finished at the top of his med school class, but because of the color of his skin and the number of others of the same skin color who got into med school and did poorly due to affirmative action, he will suffer. He will be judged on the color of his skin.

99 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:28:37am

re: #83 MandyManners

Rain?



I love Zeppelin. But this song is pretty good.

100 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:29:09am

re: #50 Sharmuta

I think the real issue is how the education system fails certain segments of our society with it's continuing march towards fairness and the dumbing down of education on the whole. Kids need to be challenged, and they even crave it, but the standards are now set up as to not hurt anyone's feelings. When these kids graduate, they're not able to compete in the real world, and we get situation like this- where hiring based off tests can show the glaring issue of how the minds involved were failed by their education. I believe President Bush called it the "soft bigotry of low expectations". He was exactly right about that. I don't think no child left behind was necessarily the answer, but he certainly pegged the problem. It culminates in things like Ricci.


I understand what you're saying here, but there must be an expectation on the part of parents that their children receive a decent education and that the kids understand what is expected of them.

Even my autistic son knows that academic mediocrity is unnaceptable in our home. Kid brought home all A's and B's for the 4th quarter. Yes, he has to work harder than other kids to get those grades, but he does it anyway.

101 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:29:17am

re: #69 Enkidu90046
With all respect: "race-based affirmative action can actually createis a form of racism.

102 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:30:20am

re: #75 Enkidu90046

Because Asians, as a group, are financially successful.


Also, as a group, education is important.

103 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:31:04am

re: #96 BlueCanuck

I know for a fact that there were several programs here in Canada for the "boat people". From what I saw though, they just used it as a step up. Never saw that many on the welfare rolls afterwards at all. Unlike most of my fellow Canadians that had stated at times that the gubernment owed them a living.

Exactly!

Most of the programs aimed at incoming poor Asians were temporary. They were also rather effective. We need that approach.

104 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:31:05am

re: #97 Racer X

I think UCLA imposed similar limits on Asians as well.

My point is this is a cultural thing. It has nothing to do with skin color. Some cultures just demand their kids work their asses off to be successful. Not every single family, but in general.

Exactly.

105 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:31:41am

Walter- my lag time is extensive. Beyond 20-30 seconds. I'm not really able to respond to comments. I'm just dropping my own thoughts in the thread at this point because interacting is taking minutes on end. I've rebooted, I've upgraded to Safari 4, I've done everything I can think of to solve this on my end including updating Java.

106 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:32:23am

re: #95 buzzsawmonkey

And you base this statement on....?

You think after the Civil Rights Movement we automatically had equality of education and hiring? The onus is on you to prove that.

Harvard still wasn't accepting women then. Radcliffe undergrads weren't even permitted in the library.

107 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:32:32am

re: #93 realwest

I'm just fine, thanks! Bright and sunny, temps in the mid 80's! I do hope you're doing well - despite your weather!

I have the day off from work, so that counts for something! lol!

We're doing great. Thanky!

108 Ay, Caramba  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:32:42am

In high school I wanted to join the football team. The coach took one look at me and declared that he finally found a place kicker and field goal kicker. I am latino by the way and the coach was black. I hated soccer and never played it growing up.
I thought it was a pretty funny experience.

109 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:33:17am

re: #87 iceweasel

I disagree. You're assuming it creates racism where there would be none. There's no reason to think that.

This is something that happens in very competitive schools and professions: people are always trying to get ahead of one another, always measuring how good the others are. Any time you have a woman or a minority in there, in my experience, some people assume it's because they're a woman or a minority.
Which is the simply the flip side of the racism AA was implemented to prevent: the assumption that women/minorities aren't as competent/skilled/deserving.

Meet the new shit, same as the old shit.

Around here, one of our state universities noticed that the graduation rate for blacks was lower than their representation in the general population, despite the rates being roughly comparable as far as admissions went. Blacks were dropping out at a higher rate, or were concentrating in just a few programs at the expense of, for example, math and physics degrees.

So the university, in it's wisdom, demanded that each department do whatever was necessary to bring the graduation rates in line. After much failure, the university's solution was to add a full letter grade to tests and final grades given to black students.

The problem was that everyone knew about this. So when a black graduate appeared for a job interview sporting a 4.0 GPA, the interviewer would immediately deduct one letter grade from their average.

Note that the group most severely penalized by this practice were those who were the highest achievers - the ones who had legitimately earned that 4.0 GPA on their own merits, and were now being underrated because of this incredibly stupid policy.

Last I heard, they had stopped this practice, but it was probably replaced with something more subtle but just as discriminatory.

110 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:33:18am

OK. Everybody wait a minute for Sharm and Walter to catch up.

111 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:33:26am

re: #108 Ay, Caramba

In high school I wanted to join the football team. The coach took one look at me and declared that he finally found a place kicker and field goal kicker. I am latino by the way and the coach was black. I hated soccer and never played it growing up.
I thought it was a pretty funny experience.

So did you kick him in the balls?

112 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:33:28am

re: #58 Cannadian Club Akbar

I looked at a place to open my own. It was very small, in a store front. The unit and the one next to it were already rented. New place knocked out a wall and made the place a pretty good size. And they are doing crap for sales. Plus,getting the money for my own place isn't easy.

Never underestimate the amount of money it takes to get a restaurant up and running. Take your worst case estimate and multiply by three. Been there, done that, glad to get out intact.

113 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:33:31am

re: #105 Sharmuta

Walter- my lag time is extensive. Beyond 20-30 seconds. I'm not really able to respond to comments. I'm just dropping my own thoughts in the thread at this point because interacting is taking minutes on end. I've rebooted, I've upgraded to Safari 4, I've done everything I can think of to solve this on my end including updating Java.

BTW: I have this problem also. I think Killgore has also been mentioning it. Whatever's going on it's affecting a few of us.

114 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:34:58am

re: #86 doppelganglander

At Berkeley, they are trying to change admissions standards to keep Asians out. Asians currently represent about 40% of the student body, mainly because they work their asses off.


Are you serious - they are trying to keep Asians OUT? I'm sorry, but as I've said in #39 and other places I just think discrimination is wrong, period.
And I can't believe that because they are doing so well as a group, that they'd try to keep them OUT!

115 Thanos  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:35:09am

From my own experience with hiring / firing / promotions both at my own business and at others it's much easier for managers to fire a black, latino, or woman who deserves firing than it is to fire any union employee who deserves firingre: #91 Walter L. Newton

This product looks like a standard ping tracer that show the nodes it's hitting. That's not what I need. When I hit "new comments" a PHP script runs on MY end to get those new comments, that what I need to trace, that request. A product like this doesn't allow me to trace that actual PHP function request.

I've done a standard ping, and a ping test comes back fine, about 23ms round trip. It's when I actually request data from LGF, and what seems to be coming in slowest is graphics from LGF.

I'm using Safari. I've turned off virus scan and firewall, no difference. Same thing happens with IE. I've turned the developers menu on in Safari and looked at the functions and items loading, and there is a latency of 17 to 28 seconds on almost EVERY process (PHP function) executed and graphic requested.

This happens with NO other site, no matter how intensive the site is, I get them in under 2 seconds.

Charles says Hosting Matters is looking into it.

I am seeing the same thing Walter. It's the graphics that get me, and one other note - when I post a spinoff it's not the graphics that are slow, but "loading categories" hangs. So I suspect a DB slow response. Maybe there are some long held locks causing the DB to do read / write waits on disk, or full field scans?

116 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:35:12am

re: #97 Racer X

I think UCLA imposed similar limits on Asians as well.

My point is this is a cultural thing. It has nothing to do with skin color. Some cultures just demand their kids work their asses off to be successful. Not every single family, but in general.

This sounds eerily reminiscent of the move to keep Jews out of schools in the first half of last century.

117 Ay, Caramba  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:35:50am

re: #111 Nevergiveup

LOL. I needed that laugh, bored out of my mind at work.

118 Enkidu90046  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:36:01am

re: #102 rightymouse

Also, as a group, education is important.

Which is why they are financially successful... same with Jews.

119 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:36:13am

re: #77 doppelganglander

Correct. The left sees him as an affirmation of affirmative action. I see him as an aberration of affirmative action, but nonetheless a recipient.
The left also sees him as a "Uncle Tom".

120 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:36:20am

re: #113 iceweasel

BTW: I have this problem also. I think Killgore has also been mentioning it. Whatever's going on it's affecting a few of us.

Hmmmmm....is it only happening to white posters?

/

121 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:36:24am

re: #117 Ay, Caramba

LOL. I needed that laugh, bored out of my mind at work.

Glad to help

122 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:36:43am

re: #105 Sharmuta

Walter- my lag time is extensive. Beyond 20-30 seconds. I'm not really able to respond to comments. I'm just dropping my own thoughts in the thread at this point because interacting is taking minutes on end. I've rebooted, I've upgraded to Safari 4, I've done everything I can think of to solve this on my end including updating Java.

I am already on Safari 4, been there since they rolled out. I'm not a network geek to the extent that I can make a living at it, but I know enough, and I cannot find any reason both on my end and on the LGF server end for this to happen.

It's almost like certain Lizards, are hitting a node that is faulty or erratic.

I don't have all of the necessary network monitoring tools to delve into this any closer than I have.

So, if Charles has asked Hosting Matters to look into it, they should have all the sneaky little tools to see what the data is doing at any point on the routes.

123 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:36:59am
124 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:37:00am

re: #112 Son of the Black Dog

Never underestimate the amount of money it takes to get a restaurant up and running. Take your worst case estimate and multiply by three. Been there, done that, glad to get out intact.

This ain't my first rodeo. But I know what you are saying. Thanks.

125 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:37:04am

re: #89 MandyManners

Doesn't he know that there was poverty throughout Europe while it was all white? That there was poverty in Africa before any white folks stepped foot there?

Well history has, manifestly, not been one of Obama's strong points Mandy, but here I think it's just that he doesn't care.

126 Thanos  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:37:23am

For me the problem started with the Pier post yesterday.

127 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:38:08am

re: #118 Enkidu90046

Which is why they are financially successful... same with Jews.

And they tend to work their butts off too. My Jewish boss (who is in his 80's) still comes to work every day. The idea of retiring is not in his mental vocabulary.

128 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:38:20am

re: #126 Thanos

For me the problem started with the Pier post yesterday.

It's a left coast plot!

129 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:38:39am

re: #103 Racer X

Exactly!

Most of the programs aimed at incoming poor Asians were temporary. They were also rather effective. We need that approach.

I think those temporary programs were successful because they dealt with a very clearly defined set of problems among a group that were happy to be here and were willing to do what it takes to adjust to their new circumstances. With some poor African-Americans, you've got a long history of people who have not forgotten they were brought here against their will and mistreated. They are often extremely angry at the system and resent any suggestion that their own behavior and life choices might have anything to do with their current situation. It's very hard to help someone who is really, really angry with you and blames you for their problems.

130 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:38:58am

Favoritism breeds contempt.

131 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:39:21am

re: #108 Ay, Caramba

In high school I wanted to join the football team. The coach took one look at me and declared that he finally found a place kicker and field goal kicker. I am latino by the way and the coach was black. I hated soccer and never played it growing up.
I thought it was a pretty funny experience.

You should have played basketball, what with all the jumping to conclusions going on.

132 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:40:23am

re: #100 rightymouse

I understand what you're saying here, but there must be an expectation on the part of parents that their children receive a decent education and that the kids understand what is expected of them.

Even my autistic son knows that academic mediocrity is unnaceptable in our home. Kid brought home all A's and B's for the 4th quarter. Yes, he has to work harder than other kids to get those grades, but he does it anyway.

I agree parental involvement is the key. We can't make parents care about their kids. You wouldn't think we'd even have to discuss it, but sadly, there are folks who just don't bother. I don't know how we change that, but surely reducing standards in schools isn't the solution.

133 Buck  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:40:43am

OT:
You might have heard about a Coup in Honduras.

In fact when President Zelaya proposed the reform extending his term, he caused Article 239 of the Constitution of Honduras, to take effect.

The Supreme Court and the attorney general were following the rule of law and the Constitution of Honduras.

Obama knows this, and lies when he says the removal was illegal.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

134 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:40:44am

re: #91 Walter L. Newton

This product looks like a standard ping tracer that show the nodes it's hitting. That's not what I need. When I hit "new comments" a PHP script runs on MY end to get those new comments, that what I need to trace, that request. A product like this doesn't allow me to trace that actual PHP function request.

I've done a standard ping, and a ping test comes back fine, about 23ms round trip. It's when I actually request data from LGF, and what seems to be coming in slowest is graphics from LGF.

I'm using Safari. I've turned off virus scan and firewall, no difference. Same thing happens with IE. I've turned the developers menu on in Safari and looked at the functions and items loading, and there is a latency of 17 to 28 seconds on almost EVERY process (PHP function) executed and graphic requested.

This happens with NO other site, no matter how intensive the site is, I get them in under 2 seconds.

Charles says Hosting Matters is looking into it.

If it's site-specific, as you're saying, traceroute is the first tool to try. It's different from ping, which just collects the total round-trip time; traceroute gives you the list of individual nodes your packet traveled through, and the time it spent at each one. Typically, when it's just you and not anyone else, there's one node that's causing the problem, which is why others (whose packets take a different route) aren't plagued by it.

I very much doubt that you are running PHP in your browser. There may be some HTML or JavaScript that's generating a call to a PHP routine back on Charles' server, but the PHP itself typically executes on Charles' end, not on the client side.

Again, traceroute could help pinpoint this; if the delay is originating at Charles' server itself, it may be a problem with that server, or it's scripts, or any number of other things, but it eliminates simple network sluggishness along the rest of the path.

135 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:40:51am

I think racial issues and subsequent tensions are perped onto 95% of the people by the remaining few....it's an old would that is not allowed to heal

136 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:41:10am

re: #115 Thanos

From my own experience with hiring / firing / promotions both at my own business and at others it's much easier for managers to fire a black, latino, or woman who deserves firing than it is to fire any union employee who deserves firing

I am seeing the same thing Walter. It's the graphics that get me, and one other note - when I post a spinoff it's not the graphics that are slow, but "loading categories" hangs. So I suspect a DB slow response. Maybe there are some long held locks causing the DB to do read / write waits on disk, or full field scans?

Charles told me in a private email, at this point, the don't think it's a server/database problem.

But, IMHO, it does appear that the requests from my end are looking for something, and it ain't being found at the other end.

Basically I'm saying, yes, I think you are on the right track.

My status bar at the bottom of Safari always shows 2 "items" missing error after it tries to load the page. What ever those two items are, it's what's causing the request to take forever until it times out or something.

137 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:41:12am

It pains me to say this but one of the advantages to having Obama as president is it should inspire more young black kids to try harder to achieve their goals. I absolutely love that effect. Hope is a good thing in this case.

138 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:41:14am

re: #109 SixDegrees

Around here, one of our state universities noticed that the graduation rate for blacks was lower than their representation in the general population, despite the rates being roughly comparable as far as admissions went. Blacks were dropping out at a higher rate, or were concentrating in just a few programs at the expense of, for example, math and physics degrees.

So the university, in it's wisdom, demanded that each department do whatever was necessary to bring the graduation rates in line. After much failure, the university's solution was to add a full letter grade to tests and final grades given to black students.

The problem was that everyone knew about this. So when a black graduate appeared for a job interview sporting a 4.0 GPA, the interviewer would immediately deduct one letter grade from their average.

Note that the group most severely penalized by this practice were those who were the highest achievers - the ones who had legitimately earned that 4.0 GPA on their own merits, and were now being underrated because of this incredibly stupid policy.

Last I heard, they had stopped this practice, but it was probably replaced with something more subtle but just as discriminatory.

That's clearly a problem with the university. Something doesn't sound right about the way you've presented it: it clearly couldn't have been a university wide policy to "add a letter grade to all black students tests/papers". Most likely this policy was concentrated in the specific departments that had a high concentration of the underachieving students-- and those specific departments relaxed standards across the board.

The obvious solution for the uni was to add more remedial courses in those majors to bring those students up to speed, or institute some screening process for the first-years to identify students likely to struggle. This is the way it's usually done.

It's interesting that just raising the GPA's changed the grad rate, as I'm assuming it did, from your post. That indicates the drop-out rate among those students WAS due to failing out or struggling academically, rather than tied to other reasons (like financial, etc.)

139 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:42:07am

re: #125 realwest

Well history has, manifestly, not been one of Obama's strong points Mandy, but here I think it's just that he doesn't care.

He's above history.

140 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:42:26am

Last update - 20:13 03/07/2009

Incoming IAEA chief: No sign Iran seeks nuclear arms

By News Agencies

Tags: Israel News, Nuclear, Iran


The incoming head of the United Nation's nuclear watchdog said on Friday he did not see any hard evidence that Iran was trying to gain the ability to develop nuclear weapons.


[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

The new head just like the old head, and you put your left foot in and you pull your left foot out, you put you left foot in and ya shake it all about.....

141 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:42:35am

re: #114 realwest

Are you serious - they are trying to keep Asians OUT? I'm sorry, but as I've said in #39 and other places I just think discrimination is wrong, period.
And I can't believe that because they are doing so well as a group, that they'd try to keep them OUT!

I am not making this up. Here's a good article by Walter Williams:

Vicious Academic Racists Take on "The Asian Menace"

Mr. Connerly tells of a conversation he had with a high-ranking UC administrator about a proposal that the administrator was developing to increase campus diversity. Connerly asked the administrator why he considered it important to tinker with admissions instead of just letting the chips fall where they may. His response was that that unless the university took steps to "guide" admissions decisions, the University of California campuses would be dominated by Asians. When Connerly asked, "What would be wrong with that?", the UC administrator told him that Asians are "too dull -- they study, study, study."
142 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:43:14am
143 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:43:55am

re: #137 Racer X

It pains me to say this but one of the advantages to having Obama as president is it should inspire more young black kids to try harder to achieve their goals. I absolutely love that effect. Hope is a good thing in this case.

I hope that is the effect.

144 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:44:29am

re: #141 doppelganglander

His response was that that unless the university took steps to "guide" admissions decisions, the University of California campuses would be dominated by Asians. When Connerly asked, "What would be wrong with that?", the UC administrator told him that Asians are "too dull -- they study, study, study."

Perish the thought that some one would go to university to just study. What about all those protests that need people sheeple to carry the signs?

145 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:44:32am

re: #132 Sharmuta
Well LGF may be slow for you, but you're just as quick minded as ever. That was a truly excellent comment.
Thank you.

146 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:47:12am

US sounds out Arabs on Israel gestures
Published: 07.03.09, 20:29 / Israel News
The United States and its Western allies are sounding out Arab governments to see if they might ease sanctions on Israel if it stopped building Jewish settlements on Palestinian territory, diplomats said on Friday.

Arab leaders have so far been cool, Western diplomats said, to suggestions they might open their airspace to Israeli airliners, allow roaming calls by Israeli cellphones or let in tourists whose passports show they have also visited Israel. (Reuters)

OH PRAISE THE LORD, ROAMING CELLPHONE CALLS! Are these fucks serious?

147 Ay, Caramba  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:48:22am

re: #141 doppelganglander

Maybe they want asians like this one:

148 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:48:52am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

I'm just trying to be patient. Not much I can do about it. If and when it gets fixed is out of my hands.

149 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:49:34am

re: #147 Ay, Caramba

Maybe they want asians like this one:

Now that is funny!

150 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:49:42am
151 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:49:48am

re: #138 iceweasel

That's clearly a problem with the university. Something doesn't sound right about the way you've presented it: it clearly couldn't have been a university wide policy to "add a letter grade to all black students tests/papers". Most likely this policy was concentrated in the specific departments that had a high concentration of the underachieving students-- and those specific departments relaxed standards across the board.

The obvious solution for the uni was to add more remedial courses in those majors to bring those students up to speed, or institute some screening process for the first-years to identify students likely to struggle. This is the way it's usually done.

It's interesting that just raising the GPA's changed the grad rate, as I'm assuming it did, from your post. That indicates the drop-out rate among those students WAS due to failing out or struggling academically, rather than tied to other reasons (like financial, etc.)

Actually, I'm not sure there was any meaningful remediation. Personally, I think the problem was cultural, and a failure of the university to accept this.
As an example, blacks don't flock to mathematics or physics or engineering; they are, however, well represented in business, medicine and the arts. I don't think it's so much a difference in ability as it is a difference in peers - people are often comfortable in fields shared by those they've been surrounded with.

In any case, it was a remarkably stupid attempt to fix a problem, and may have been attempting to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist in the first place.

152 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:50:25am

re: #142 buzzsawmonkey


Affirmative action squandered the social good will which had been created by the Civil Rights Movement, without doing anything to solve the problems it purported to address.

I'll note that SCOTUS hasn't agreed with you, and no discussion of affirmative action and the like can reasonably be only about 'race based admissions' or 'hiring'.

I'll also note that telling commentators to 'stop slopping the KoolAid' down their shirt is a good way to squander the good will they bear towards you.

153 Thanos  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:50:58am

OT:
Islamic Fundamentalist Theocrats to meet in Chicago 7/19, Hizb ut Tahrir america to meet, posted their promotional vid in spinoffs down one thread

154 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:51:14am

re: #141 doppelganglander
Geebus. I never thought you were making that up, but that link and quote are just DEVASTATING to me.
I understand the idea that college or University is not JUST a place for academics, but also for people to meet and enjoy (hopefully) other people in social settings, but the idea that Asians should be kept out because all they do is "study, study, study" is waay past the point of lunacy.

155 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:51:22am

Roddick into the Wimbledon Final.

156 swamprat  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:51:29am

Affirmative action was absolutely needed at the time it was implemented.
But you can't run an engine with the choke on all the time.
Affirmative action was a much-needed crutch, but if you force a patient to use a crutch when he doesn't need it, you can cripple him.
The solution is to keep cutting an inch off until the patient discards them.

There are many chains. Dependency is a chain. Ignorance is a chain. Fear, hatred, and racism are also chains.

Obama made a liar out of the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons and, yes, the reverend Wrights of the world. They hate him because they were a lot more comfortable in world where they were getting paid to tell people that every failure was society's fault.

157 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:51:51am

re: #132 Sharmuta

I agree parental involvement is the key. We can't make parents care about their kids. You wouldn't think we'd even have to discuss it, but sadly, there are folks who just don't bother. I don't know how we change that, but surely reducing standards in schools isn't the solution.

It's a conundrum because teacher unions fight any attempt to have options like vouchers so parents without financial means can send their kids to decent private schools.

I'd say that moving to a better school district is another option, but not everyone can do that.

At schools where standards have been reduced to moronic levels, I betcha the drop-out rates are still high.

158 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:52:55am

re: #150 buzzsawmonkey

There have been efforts in recent years to re-introduce quotas against Jewish university applicants, all in the name of "diversity."

Well, it was a fun couple of decades.

WTF? Who is trying to do this?

159 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:53:28am

re: #142 buzzsawmonkey
Uh, technically speaking buzz, women aren't a minority either - there are more women in America than there are men.
Just saying.
And I agree with your comment completely.

160 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:53:29am
161 Nevergiveup  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:54:24am

Powell airs doubts on Obama agenda

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

Hey asshole, what did you think you were supporting by voting for him? Naive bastard.

162 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:54:45am

re: #154 realwest

Geebus. I never thought you were making that up, but that link and quote are just DEVASTATING to me.
I understand the idea that college or University is not JUST a place for academics, but also for people to meet and enjoy (hopefully) other people in social settings, but the idea that Asians should be kept out because all they do is "study, study, study" is waay past the point of lunacy.

It's not even true. I am pretty sure Asian students also enjoy their social life on and off campus. However, they are probably not wasting their time sitting in trees to protest the new stadium, or drinking until they black out.

163 solomonpanting  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:55:25am

re: #152 iceweasel
re: #142 buzzsawmonkey


Affirmative action squandered the social good will which had been created by the Civil Rights Movement, without doing anything to solve the problems it purported to address.

I'll note that SCOTUS hasn't agreed with you, and no discussion of affirmative action and the like can reasonably be only about 'race based admissions' or 'hiring'.

I'll also note that telling commentators to 'stop slopping the KoolAid' down their shirt is a good way to squander the good will they bear towards you.

Whether or not the SCOTUS agrees or not is irrelevant because the good will is still squandered.

164 rightymouse  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:55:38am

re: #142 buzzsawmonkey

A gazillion updings.

165 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:56:10am
166 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:57:13am

re: #64 SixDegrees

I know you've received advice on this topic already, but has anyone suggested traceroute? There are lots of versions of it available - a decent one is at [Link: visualroute.visualware.com...] but Google will turn up others. It tracks the time and number of hops your requests experience on their travels, which might help pinpoint a slow server or at least give more information on comparative loading speed relative to other sites.

OK- I tried this and there is an issue. I'm not a geek, so now what?

167 realwest  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:57:32am

Well y'all it's been grand as usual, but I gotta go - I hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

168 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:57:35am

I'm thinking about popping some popcorn. Anyone?

169 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:58:16am

re: #165 buzzsawmonkey

There was some discussion of it here about a year, year and a half ago. I probably should have saved the links.

Basically, the same argument used against the Asians was used against the Jewish students; grades too high, too much studying, and that therefore they gained admission out of "proportion" to their presence in the general population.

So, instead of trying to get more people to rise, they'd like to see Jews cut off at the knees. My flabber is gasted.

170 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:58:20am

re: #151 SixDegrees

Actually, I'm not sure there was any meaningful remediation. Personally, I think the problem was cultural, and a failure of the university to accept this.
As an example, blacks don't flock to mathematics or physics or engineering; they are, however, well represented in business, medicine and the arts. I don't think it's so much a difference in ability as it is a difference in peers - people are often comfortable in fields shared by those they've been surrounded with.

In any case, it was a remarkably stupid attempt to fix a problem, and may have been attempting to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist in the first place.

That sounds spot on to me. In the cases I'm familiar with involving unis faced with a problem like this, typically they need to offer remediation and aren't. For this uni near you, it sounds clear that they took the worst possible solution.

I can think of at least one uni with several separate colleges, each of which has different admissions standards and offers different majors, and each of which has a very different racial makeup. Although the uni is able to claim impressive looking statistics about the demographics, in reality it's shockingly segregated. Which harms everyone.

As you also say in your last paragraph, it's unclear they even had a problem to fix in the first place-- or that they identified the right one.

Chose a bad solution, that's for sure. The laziest one and the one that wouldn't cost any money, I notice-- rather than creating a new program, adding remedial courses and tutoring, hiring more faculty for those, they essentially told the existing faculty to inflate grades for the courses already being held. Typical.

171 Ay, Caramba  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:58:25am

re: #168 doppelganglander

I'm thinking about popping some popcorn. Anyone?

That can be better used as biofuel.

172 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:59:18am

White House Salaries Revealed: It's Good to be an 'Assistant'

(The president, as is well known, earns $400,000 a year; good work if you can get it.)

The White House report was delivered Wednesday, and there are no great surprises. The salaries range from $36,000 to $192,934 and appear to be consistent with many offices. You probably wouldn't be shocked to learn that the White House operator makes $42,800, or that a tax counsel brings in $132,914. Someone called the Assistant Shift Leader earns $46,600.

The Washington Post points out one curiosity: there are 22 aides -- many holding the title "assistant to the president" -- who earn the considerable sum of $172,000.

[Snip]


Salaries of all White House staff

173 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:59:55am

re: #161 Nevergiveup

Powell airs doubts on Obama agenda

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

Hey asshole, what did you think you were supporting by voting for him? Naive bastard.

well he's finally making sense and people will listen...BO is gonna blow up one of these days...he will simply have to back off and how he handles it should be a real hoot

174 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:01:45am

re: #171 Ay, Caramba

That can be better used as biofuel.

Not a chance. I can't think of anything dumber than burning food for fuel. Do not get me started on my opinions about biofuel.

175 albusteve  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:02:45am

re: #174 doppelganglander

Not a chance. I can't think of anything dumber than burning food for fuel. Do not get me started on my opinions about biofuel.

tortilla riots in Mexico.....some bad juju there

176 Ay, Caramba  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:02:49am

re: #174 doppelganglander

Popcorn gives me gas, hence the biofuel.
/

177 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:03:29am

re: #170 iceweasel

Why should a four-year university be offering remedial programs anyway? They shouldn't be admitting people who need remediation. That's what community college is for.

178 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:05:15am

re: #177 doppelganglander

Why should a four-year university be offering remedial programs anyway? They shouldn't be admitting people who need remediation. That's what community college is for.

They all do.
What do you think a class like Freshman Comp is, other than a way of teaching people what they ought to have learned, but didn't, in high school?

179 BatGuano  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:07:28am

This whole affirmative action fiasco of the last 45 years can be reduced to group rights over individual rights. These onerous laws favor group rights over individuals rights. These individuals are the unwilling sacrifices of the law.
Our constitution protects the rights of every individual; not nebulous groups.

180 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:07:34am

re: #178 iceweasel

They all do.
What do you think a class like Freshman Comp is, other than a way of teaching people what they ought to have learned, but didn't, in high school?

Adding: Note that I'm not saying this is a good thing-- just pointing out that the problems with the US educational system are many and various, and start much further back than university level.

181 kansas  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:10:33am

What always pissed me off about "Affirmative Action" was the name. Who can be against action? And things affirmative, well who can be against affirmative things? It's something that you can't be against. Until you apply for a job and find out you are the wrong color. I learned this in 1973. It's "progressive" thing, though. Take and offensive practice, and simply change the name.

182 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:13:47am

re: #179 BatGuano

This whole affirmative action fiasco of the last 45 years can be reduced to group rights over individual rights. These onerous laws favor group rights over individuals rights. These individuals are the unwilling sacrifices of the law.
Our constitution protects the rights of every individual; not nebulous groups.

The strange thing is that it requires the sanction of its' victims to work.

183 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:15:07am

re: #180 iceweasel

Adding: Note that I'm not saying this is a good thing-- just pointing out that the problems with the US educational system are many and various, and start much further back than university level.

As an employer, I've seen applications from high school graduates who are illiterate.

184 sagehen  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:18:11am

re: #79 Racer X

But all those poor Vietnamese people who came over with nothing but the shirt on their backs, they all needed special programs right?

/yes I'm being facetious.


Yes, they did need special programs. Which they got.

Some from the government, some from religious groups, some from conservative pro-war political organizations, and some from liberal pro-refugee political organizations.

And they didn't come with "nothing but the shirt on their backs." They came with good educations and professional skills. They came with letters of recommendation from the soldiers and embassy staff they'd worked with. The organizations mentioned above, after providing several years free housing and truckloads of food and clothing and years of intensive language classes, then provided job placement services and low-interest business start-up loans.

185 Racer X  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:19:49am

re: #183 debutaunt

As an employer, I've seen applications from high school graduates who are illiterate.

I keep a file of the best ones.

My favorite interview response?

"Why should we hire you?"

"Because I showed up"

186 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:23:36am

re: #180 iceweasel

Adding: Note that I'm not saying this is a good thing-- just pointing out that the problems with the US educational system are many and various, and start much further back than university level.

That's true, but correcting them at the university level is expensive and ineffective. K-12 education needs a major overhaul in order to produce students who are truly prepared for college-level work.

I also think fewer students should attend college in the first place. Many students would be better served by two-year vocational and technical programs. Jill Biden is an English professor at a community college and is an advocate for expanding two-year colleges to meet the needs of struggling students, people who want to retrain for a new career, etc. Her husband is a bozo, but I admire her stance on this and her work in this area.

187 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:27:11am

re: #185 Racer X

I keep a file of the best ones.

My favorite interview response?

"Why should we hire you?"

"Because I showed up"

Oh, golly.
There's that sense of "entitlement", the sense that one is "special" without having much in the way of actual accomplishment.

188 Ateam  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:27:13am

re: #114 realwest

Are you serious - they are trying to keep Asians OUT? I'm sorry, but as I've said in #39 and other places I just think discrimination is wrong, period.
And I can't believe that because they are doing so well as a group, that they'd try to keep them OUT!

They doing so well as individuals belonging to the same group. If this is not shear racism and brutal discrimination I would think UCLA is a brunch of KKK.

189 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:30:47am

re: #166 Sharmuta

OK- I tried this and there is an issue. I'm not a geek, so now what?

Send the information along to Charles. Knowing which node is causing a problem will help to resolve the issue. He can either pass it along to HM, take actions to address his own software, or contact the owner of the node if it belongs to someone other than HM.

190 sagehen  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:31:25am

re: #106 iceweasel

You think after the Civil Rights Movement we automatically had equality of education and hiring? The onus is on you to prove that.

Harvard still wasn't accepting women then. Radcliffe undergrads weren't even permitted in the library.

And as was noted during Alito's confirmation battle, as an undergrad he was part of a group demanding that Princeton have quotas to limit the percentage of women allowed in. Regardless of test scores, or grades, or any other admission criteria, they felt that no men should ever be rejected to make room for women. Even more qualified women.

191 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:39:16am

re: #161 Nevergiveup

Powell airs doubts on Obama agenda

A little late for that.

192 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:39:26am

re: #186 doppelganglander

That's true, but correcting them at the university level is expensive and ineffective. K-12 education needs a major overhaul in order to produce students who are truly prepared for college-level work.

I also think fewer students should attend college in the first place. Many students would be better served by two-year vocational and technical programs. Jill Biden is an English professor at a community college and is an advocate for expanding two-year colleges to meet the needs of struggling students, people who want to retrain for a new career, etc. Her husband is a bozo, but I admire her stance on this and her work in this area.

I agree with all of that. I've had this similar conversation with some others here-- possibly you.

193 iceweasel  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:40:22am

re: #190 sagehen

Even more qualified women.

Probably especially more qualified women, if the caterwauling about Sotomayor is any indication.

194 Bagua  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:50:33am

re: #97 Racer X

I think UCLA imposed similar limits on Asians as well.

My point is this is a cultural thing. It has nothing to do with skin color. Some cultures just demand their kids work their asses off to be successful. Not every single family, but in general.

I agree. Spend some time with the American black community and one will clearly see that there are some common cultural beliefs that are holding them back. Among which are aspiring to "gangsterism" and criminality as a career and lifestyle goal, regarding education as "brainwashing," women as inferior, and a the cultivation of a patois form of English.

While second generation immigrant Asians speak normal English for their local, 10th Blacks are often incomprehensible and unemployable due to their lack of work ethics, behaviour and cultural tendencies.

195 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 12:17:08pm

re: #189 SixDegrees

I'm checking with my service provider. I'm curious if it's a common thread.

196 Bagua  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 12:26:54pm

re: #64 SixDegrees

I know you've received advice on this topic already, but has anyone suggested traceroute? There are lots of versions of it available - a decent one is at [Link: visualroute.visualware.com...] but Google will turn up others. It tracks the time and number of hops your requests experience on their travels, which might help pinpoint a slow server or at least give more information on comparative loading speed relative to other sites.

Thank you for posting1 gig that, I'm having fun with it, in general, it reports my trade to LGF to be good. The LGF comments section work very good on Windows 7 FF3.5 single core with 1 gig of ram (a pretty minimal PC by today's standards. Also runs fine with XP pro on the same PC, note though that both are fresh OS installations with most TSR programs disabled.

197 elclynn  Fri, Jul 3, 2009 1:59:14pm

#18 albusteve
reparations? To whom?

198 Tricky Dick  Mon, Jul 6, 2009 5:38:17am

The day this is resolved will be the day Jesse Jackson and others who threaten businesses with lawsuits will no longer be able to make a living from extortion.


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