Ah, Todd!

I like the new colors -- and the song too.

I've always liked this song.

Free-fire zone in Powderhorn Park. Probably go on until about 3:00 am.

They really should legalize this stuff.

Not sure what I think of it yet...

Reminds me of the Showtime series Jeremiah.

I'm a Christian. I always liked this song.

Probably will be listening to it in Hell with Killgore and Noam and Sharmuta and Not. Oh, and Charles (well, he posted it!)

re: #4 Noam Sayin'

Somebody has a couple big fireworks.

re: #6 freetoken

Reminds me of the Showtime series Jeremiah.

Good series. The ending was too peaceful, though.

Awesome song, but doctrinaire nonetheless.

Like God is responsible for our wars...........

"The poor you shall always have with you."
some carpenter.....

I don't need a big reduction in the price of beer.

But it wouldn't hurt.

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

Good series. The ending was too peaceful, though.

In many ways I thought the entire show was too optimistic, given the premise. However, I realize TV shows sells best when marketed to specific groups, and eventually Jeremiah seemed to me to be a product for late teens/20-somethings. It didn't start that way... but one can see the hand of the studio/MGM in steering the series into something not quite so dark by the end of the 35 episode run.

Now if he had been singing "Dear Bush", well, there's the real culprit.

/it's never "our" fault........

I just find it an interesting conundrum. If he doesn't believe in God -- why write a song to Him? I think there are times many people have struggles with reconciling bad things with a caring God, and can perhaps relate in part to this song.

Hey speaking of Hell...time for dreams.

Goodnight.

Do you suppose anyone will listen all the way to the end and write Charles hate mail?

The first mistake is giving God human characteristics and emotions.
My God doesn't even care who wins the Super Bowl, let alone a stinkin' man made war.

re: #14 IslandLibertarian

Now if he had been singing "Dear Bush", well, there's the real culprit.

/it's never "our" fault........

Says Obama CBBHO.

i love that song

re: #17 Last Mohican

Do you suppose anyone will listen all the way to the end and write Charles hate mail?

Dunno; he gets some weird missives, though. I listened to it twice and it made little impression on me...

Sharm, you beat me to that thought. He is blaming God for all the World's problems, as if mankind had no part in it all. He claims that people wrote the Bible, not mentioning that part about 'inspired by God', or the Gospels being biographies of Christ. Well, if a Christian listening to the song enjoys it, okay. I'll have to think it over.
Charles, are you a Secularist?

re: #17 Last Mohican

Do you suppose anyone will listen all the way to the end and write Charles hate mail?

People will listen to the end. People write Charles hate mail. Combining both in this instance may be less likely.
/removes "Master of the Obvious Deduction" hat

re: #18 IslandLibertarian

The first mistake is giving God human characteristics and emotions. My God doesn't even care who wins the Super Bowl, let alone a stinkin' man made war.

Most maturely religious folks would likely agree with you. After all, who are we to claim to know the mind of God? And as far as a football game is concerned, I suspect He's far more interested in helping the kicker deal with the consequences of his game-winning attempt than in the actual outcome. But, YMMV.

The theodicy problem. If evil exists, then God is not all good, or God is not all powerful. The answer could be that God doesn't exist, or that we don't really understand what's going on.

So far we have a lot of evidence for the latter answer.

XTC is a very underrated band.

"You're always letting us humans down,
the wars you bring,
the babes you drown."

/Oh yeah, and he made Michael Jackson a drug addled curiosity.

I've always thought that Skylarking was a brilliantly produced album. Particularly the first side, which is sort of a themed medley. But is "Dear God" even on Skylarking? I mean, wasn't it on the U.S. album but not the U.K. album, or vice versa?

Well, I'm going to bed. Happy 4th of July to all.
Thank you to all our men and women who serve this country in the Armed Forces, Police, Fire, EMS, and Border Security.
God bless the United States of America, the best country on Earth!
A-men!

re: #15 Sharmuta

I just find it an interesting conundrum. If he doesn't believe in God -- why write a song to Him?

That is why I mentioned the TV show Jeremiah. In that show the principal protagonist at the same time says he doesn't believe in God and openly shares his anger with God.

re: #29 NelsFree

Well, I'm going to bed. Happy 4th of July to all.
Thank you to all our men and women who serve this country in the Armed Forces, Police, Fire, EMS, and Border Security.
God bless the United States of America, the best country on Earth!
A-men!

What he said...

We've no less days to sing God's praise than we first begun.

re: #25 jaunte

The theodicy problem. If evil exists, then God is not all good, or God is not all powerful. The answer could be that God doesn't exist, or that we don't really understand what's going on.

So far we have a lot of evidence for the latter answer.

The latter answer has also always been the only way religions have been able to handle the theodicy problem. They differ in the details, of course, but it always has to come down to some version of "god works in mysterious ways." Basically positing some epistemological lack or mystery on our part.

Every religion that accepts the following three principles has to cope with the theodicy issue: 1) God is omniscient 2)god is omnipotent 3) god is omnibenevolent. Hence the challenge theodicy poses.

It is a theology thread?

re: #15 Sharmuta

If he doesn't believe in God -- why write a song to Him?

God really isn't the target audience. The song was intended for human consumption.

re: #34 ggt

It is a theology thread?

If it is, we need to get Karridine in here. He's the expert on that subject.

re: #34 ggt

It is a theology thread?

This thread is many things to many people.

re: #35 Killgore Trout

The song is about daddy issues and problems with authority.
God is the scapegoat.

re: #35 Killgore Trout

God really isn't the target audience. The song was intended for human consumption.

It's Darwinist propaganda! Oh noes!

re: #34 ggt

It is a theology thread?

I thought it was a Todd Rundgren thread.

re: #37 freetoken

This thread is many things to many people.

The thread exists everywhere, and it exists nowhere.

/be like the thread, Danny. (caddyshack)

I like this XYC song, too.

If depth of feeling is a currency,
Then I'm the man who grew the money tree,
Some of your friends are too brainy to see,
That they're paupers and thats how theyll stay.

Well I don't know how many pounds make up a ton,
Of all the nobel prizes that I've never won,
And I may be the mayor of simpleton,
But I know one thing,
And that's I love you.

Youtube Video

"Mayor of Simpleton" is the greatest song ever.

More philosophy from XTC - "Life Begins at the Hop":

This might be the first post on Little Green Footballs that I really dislike.

Rundgren's been fairly neutral to positive about religious matters. DON'T YOU EVER LISTEN was a song about the irony of religion but JUST ONE VICTORY is sort of a prayer.

So God is the source of all our problems. Rundgren ventured beyond his competence.

Well, I'm going outside to watch the fireworks... back later.

re: #43 KingKenrod

"Mayor of Simpleton" is the greatest song ever.

More philosophy from XTC - "Life Begins at the Hop":

[Video]

Life Begins at the Hop

re: #41 iceweasel

The thread exists everywhere, and it exists nowhere.

/be like the thread, Danny. (caddyshack)

It's hard to find something in a non-existent room especially if there is nothing in the room.

/

re: #48 Gus 802

(Just feel around for the light switch)

re: #45 BatGuano

So God is the source of all our problems. Rundgren ventured beyond his competence.

I'd say that he ventured waaay above his pay grade.

re: #49 jaunte

(Just feel around for the light switch)

That's no light switch.

OK, the song was written by Andy Partridge.

Songfacts indicates:

This was inspired by a series of books with the same title, which lead singer Andy Partridge saw as an exploitation of children. The song is essentially a letter to God asking about his existence.

And here is the series of books.

re: #44 Plato

Rundgren only produced the song. Andy Partridge wrote it.

re: #33 iceweasel
What is "theodicy"?

re: #54 realwest

What is "theodicy"?

I think iec was going for "theoidiocy"
like moonies

re: #54 realwest

What is "theodicy"?

Theodicy defends Gods justice despite suffering.

Last time I posted, I quoted two bible verses and my post was deleted.
This time, I'll just post the link.

By the way, I really enjoy the music of XTC.

re: #52 Gus 802

Heh, very interesting.

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Heh, very interesting.

Felt compelled to set the record straight. ;)

Was also thinking along the lines of "Paul McCartney wrote Helter Skelter. That doesn't make him a serial killer."

It's not an anti-God song, in my opinion. I've always seen it as an anti-believer song. I used to agree with this viewpoint, but I now see it as childish, petty, and mean-spirited (even though I'm an unbeliever).

re: #51 iceweasel

That's no light switch.

Keep your hands to yourself, my dear. ;)

re: #54 realwest

What is "theodicy"?

What BatGuano said above. Theodicy is just another name for what's also known as "The Problem of Evil".

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

Keep your hands to yourself, my dear. ;)

Come closer, I couldn't hear you. ;)

re: #62 iceweasel Do you believe that Evil exists?

re: #49 jaunte

(Just feel around for the light switch)

Clap on!

Clap off!

//

re: #60 patrickafir

It's not an anti-God song, in my opinion. I've always seen it as an anti-believer song. I used to agree with this viewpoint, but I now see it as childish, petty, and mean-spirited (even though I'm an unbeliever).

Good point. Much the same with this video that Charles posted last week....

re: #65 Gus 802

Clap on!

Clap off!

//

penicillin!

theodicy sounds better than theosophy.

re: #67 IslandLibertarian
ROTFL!

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Yeah, that's a really cool message, although her voice annoys me. lol

re: #67 IslandLibertarian

penicillin!

So it really wasn't a light switch!

//

re: #71 Gus 802

nor a turn on...........

re: #67 IslandLibertarian

penicillin!

LMAO!

I always get a kick out of the differing opinions of what a song means.
I am a relativist when is comes to many forms of art.
Despite what the artist may have intended the meaning to be of a particular song, the truth of a song is in what it means to you, the individual.

re: #70 patrickafir

I actually really like her voice. At first I thought she had a speech impediment but it turns out that she's Russian. Her diction is part of the appeal to me.

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Yeah, and nobody damn sure better laugh at evolution. :)

We all recognize evil and know we have free will. Let's not blame god for evil for giving us free will.

re: #68 ggt

theodicy sounds better than theosophy.

Actually, just from reading Wiki, theosophy sounds interesting.[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #75 Killgore Trout

When it comes to funky female enunciation in singing, I like Kate Bush best!

Oh this is just strange. I've been playing this video non-stop for the past few weeks. I heard it on the radio and then it just wouldn't stop going through my head.

And here it is ... a thread on LGF. Yow.

re: #64 realwest

Do you believe that Evil exists?

Well, the theodicy problem doesn't arise only if you think that Evil, (capital E) exists. Like BG said upthread, it's about the problem of human suffering existing in the world, if you believe that there is a god who is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.

If you believe that, you're faced with the problem of explaining why suffering exists-- not just manmade evil, but the ordinary sufferings of children born with terrible illness or dying young, people dying in natural disasters and the like.

So all religions have a story to tell to reconcile the existence of God with the place of human suffering. (I'd argue, personally, that our need to understand and explain suffering is also one of the impulses that underlies our drive towards religion.)

As for me: yes, I do think there is evil in the world.

re: #74 Simple Voice

I always get a kick out of the differing opinions of what a song means.
I am a relativist when is comes to many forms of art.
Despite what the artist may have intended the meaning to be of a particular song, the truth of a song is in what it means to you, the individual.

That is, I think, absolutely true. OTOH, sometimes the song writer didn't mean much of anything (I'm remembering an interview - probably 30 years old now - when Stephen Stills and Bob Dylan were sitting in a dressing room picking, grinning and "grabbing" at lyrics. Stills asked Dylan what Dylan had meant when he said something or other in a song called "License to Kill" and Dylan responded, "Shit, Steven, I was just trying to make it rhyme with the preceding line!").

re: #80 Lynn B.

Oh this is just strange. I've been playing this video non-stop for the past few weeks. I heard it on the radio and then it just wouldn't stop going through my head.

And here it is ... a thread on LGF. Yow.

I love synchronicity. It happens to me all the time. I think it here, it comes out there.

re: #77 BatGuano

We all recognize evil and know we have free will. Let's not blame god for evil for giving us free will.

Right, freewill is the usual explanation for the existence of manmade evil.

Another great (and/but less controversial) one from XTC:

re: #15 Sharmuta

I just find it an interesting conundrum. If he doesn't believe in God -- why write a song to Him? I think there are times many people have struggles with reconciling bad things with a caring God, and can perhaps relate in part to this song.

Exactly!

re: #80 Lynn B.

And here it is ... a thread on LGF. Yow.

Some say, "There are no coincidences."

And some say "$3.49 is way too much for a loaf of bread."

It only matters what you say...........on not........

re: #81 iceweasel
"So all religions have a story to tell to reconcile the existence of God with the place of human suffering. (I'd argue, personally, that our need to understand and explain suffering is also one of the impulses that underlies our drive towards religion.)"
I found that extremely interesting. I've had occasion to talk to a Rabbi, a Roman Catholic Priest, and a Lutheran minister and asked them the same question and got the "God works in mysterious ways" from two of the three. The other one said something like (this conversation took place a long time ago) "God made us with Free Will. What we choose to do with that Free Will He left to us to decide." He also happened to be a strong believer in science and believed that God made us in such a way that we could find cures for disease - as we obviously have done. I asked about War and he just smiled and said "Free Will".
I'll never forget the gist (if not the precise words) of that conversation.

re: #84 iceweasel

Right, freewill is the usual explanation for the existence of manmade evil.

FWIW I believe that man is capable of both evil and good. Evil does exist but it is the result of human behavior. This is also the case for good which is the result of healthy human behavior. Survival of the human species relies on good behavior.

Natural events are not evil because they are not the result of conscious actions. For example death and destruction that is caused by tornados or hurricanes. The same with diseases. These events can be seen as evil but in rhetorical sense.

The ability to detect evil behavior, ideology, etc. is necessary for the survival of the species and societies. The acknowledgement of evil is universal in that it is detectable and definable by believers and non-believers alike. The specific definitions of evil acts will vary within cultures.

re: #85 Lynn B.

Another great (and/but less controversial) one from XTC:

[Video]

XTC - Mayor of Simpleton

My favorite of theirs.

re: #89 Gus 802
Hey Gus! "The specific definitions of evil acts will vary within cultures." I sorta agree and I sorta DON'T agree - I guess depending on what the "evil" is.
I'm not sure that there is a culture which would describe Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin or Pol Pot (as examples only) as anything but murderers (and, obviously, I'm talking about their true natures; whether or not one of them managed to get the trains to run on time is surely not a mitigating factor in the essence of those three men: the were Evil personified).

Happy Independence Day, everyone. America is a miracle. I'll try to be back later.

Hitler killing millions = evil
attacking Palin's children = evil

pretty simple

When Bad Things Happen to Good People, by Harold S. Kushner:

"Maybe God does not cause our suffering. Maybe it happens for some reason other than the will of God. The psalmist writes, "I lift mine eyes to the hills, from where does my help come? My help comes from the Lord, maker of Heaven and earth." (Psalm 121:1-2). He does not say, "My pain comes from the Lord", or "my tragedy comes from the Lord." He says "my help comes from the Lord."

Could it be that God does not cause the bad things that happen to us?
. . . but rather, that He stands ready to help them and us cope with our tragedies if we could only get beyond the feelings of guild and anger that separate us from Him. Could it be that "How could God do this to me?" is really the wrong question for us to ask?

weet dreams all!

re: #93 IslandLibertarian

Michael Jackson molesting little boys = evil

re: #91 realwest

Hey Gus! "The specific definitions of evil acts will vary within cultures." I sorta agree and I sorta DON'T agree - I guess depending on what the "evil" is.
I'm not sure that there is a culture which would describe Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin or Pol Pot (as examples only) as anything but murderers (and, obviously, I'm talking about their true natures; whether or not one of them managed to get the trains to run on time is surely not a mitigating factor in the essence of those three men: the were Evil personified).

Right. I meant the specifics such as certain deviations of common mores or norms which might be construed as evil. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot would fit into a wider accepted evil.

re: #93 IslandLibertarian

Hitler killing millions = evil
attacking Palin's children = evil

pretty simple

Well I don't know as if I'd go so far as to call attacking (verbally) Palin's children as "evil" - evidence of poor character and judgement, yes. But to link Hitler to the MSM's (and others) attacks on Palin's children diminishes the Evil that was Hitler.

I always loved that song. It's an honest, angry, question about how God can be good while all this awful stuff happens. It's a question I've asked more than a few times. I do believe in God, and I do believe he's good and all powerful. And yes that does eventually lead to the dreaded word "mystery." It's the same question numerous biblical writers themselves asked, whether Job, David, Jeremiah, or many others. I still believe, even though it's an uncomfortable belief. There seems to be a greater spiritual reality beyond our simply physical existence, and of all of the contenders for spiritual insight, Christianity has best suited me for the most coherent answers. Even so, doubt is a present presence much of the time.

Hitler finds out Michael Jackson has died

Jack Daniel's = Evil

=]

It was a very good song and a powerful video specially the part about using the kid because kids have an amazing ability to know what is and isn't fair and it sums the message up. There is so much suffering around us so whats the point of god and why should anyone believe in it. When you put god to the data and logic test, the whole concept fails. But God isn't about data and logic, its faith in the unseen for reasons hoped. And I disagree with the lyrics when they said something like "theres no such thing as sinners and no such thing as saints". That part seems to point to good people = bad people and there is no right and no wrong because there is no god. Morality and religion aren't the same thing and even if you don't believe in God there are saints and there are sinners however you want to define them.

re: #90 Gus 802

Books are Burning

re: #103 Lynn B.

Books are Burning

Thanks. Never heard that song before. You know, it kind of reminds me of "The Band."

re: #88 realwest

"So all religions have a story to tell to reconcile the existence of God with the place of human suffering. (I'd argue, personally, that our need to understand and explain suffering is also one of the impulses that underlies our drive towards religion.)"
I found that extremely interesting. I've had occasion to talk to a Rabbi, a Roman Catholic Priest, and a Lutheran minister and asked them the same question and got the "God works in mysterious ways" from two of the three. The other one said something like (this conversation took place a long time ago) "God made us with Free Will. What we choose to do with that Free Will He left to us to decide." He also happened to be a strong believer in science and believed that God made us in such a way that we could find cures for disease - as we obviously have done. I asked about War and he just smiled and said "Free Will".
I'll never forget the gist (if not the precise words) of that conversation.

RW-- that's exactly right. The combination of those answers is typically what is used to handle the theodicy problem: freewill to cover the cases where human beings deliberately do evil things, and "god works in mysterious ways" to cover the existence of suffering, especially suffering that isn't caused by another person (b/c that can be explained by pointing to freewill). So it isn't only about explaining why Hitler existed, for example, but also about explaining why tsunamis kill people, children have terminal illness, all of that sort of (non-manmade) suffering.

In short, the challenge for theologians is to answer the rabbi kushner question: "Why do bad things happen to good people?" but it has at least two parts: 1) explain why bad things happen, and 2) explain why they can happen to good people.

re: #100 Bobblehead
ROTFLMAO! Thanks for that one!

re: #98 realwest

attacking innocents is rooted in evil.
just how evil you make it is measurable.

time to go watch fireworks....HURRAH FOR AMERICA!

20:12:35

Off Topic:

Obama keeps talking about arms reductions but Russia doesn't seem to be listening. Because nothing says arms reduction like re-commissioning two SSBNs, each one mounting 20 SLBMs. Putin is also building a new class of SSGN, too.

Zombie Boomers Roam The Seas

Yasen The Carrier Killer

re: #89 Gus 802

FWIW I believe that man is capable of both evil and good. Evil does exist but it is the result of human behavior. This is also the case for good which is the result of healthy human behavior. Survival of the human species relies on good behavior.

Natural events are not evil because they are not the result of conscious actions. For example death and destruction that is caused by tornados or hurricanes. The same with diseases. These events can be seen as evil but in rhetorical sense.

The ability to detect evil behavior, ideology, etc. is necessary for the survival of the species and societies. The acknowledgement of evil is universal in that it is detectable and definable by believers and non-believers alike. The specific definitions of evil acts will vary within cultures.

Gus, you can define 'evil' in such a way that it only applies to conscious human acts. That's fine. But the theodicy issue is about the problem posed by human suffering as a whole, not just suffering inflicted on us by other humans. (this is why theodicy is a better name for it than "the problem of evil", although the latter is how it's often phrased in philosophy and theology)

Taking a fast look at wiki's entry on this it looks okay, here is the section on solutions which gives more detail:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Charles:

Thank you. A perfect song for a Deist on Independence Day!

Funny finding this video on a conservative site because the vast majority of non-believers are liberals and leftists. In this video, I especially resent the use of a child to sell the message of non-belief (just as I resent the use of children to sell anything) since the faith of children is something beautiful to behold.

re: #104 Gus 802

Thanks. Never heard that song before. You know, it kind of reminds me of "The Band."

Andy Partridge is an extremely talented guy and XTC's influence on contemporary music (both as a band and in its separate components) is truly mind-boggling. Not to mention their integration and appreciation of past influences, one of which you may very well have picked up on there.

Loves me some fireworks and ice cream.

Hows everybody doin?

re: #114 Racer X

Loves me some fireworks and ice cream.

Hows everybody doin?

I'm good. Had a chance to visit family and spend a night up in Wisconsin. Good break from my normal routine.

re: #112 garden18

I don't know if this is a conservative site.
I do agree with you, I don't care to see children used as devices to sell anything. It appalls me to see children address nation political conventions.

re: #104 Gus 802

Thanks. Never heard that song before. You know, it kind of reminds me of "The Band."

Mr. Moulding and Mr. Partridge have been doing cutting edge stuff (okay, they're freaking leftists) since I don't know when- at least 1979. Black Sea, Drums and Wires, &c, their early albums are brutal and wonderful.

re: #110 iceweasel

Gus, you can define 'evil' in such a way that it only applies to conscious human acts. That's fine. But the theodicy issue is about the problem posed by human suffering as a whole, not just suffering inflicted on us by other humans. (this is why theodicy is a better name for it than "the problem of evil", although the latter is how it's often phrased in philosophy and theology)

Taking a fast look at wiki's entry on this it looks okay, here is the section on solutions which gives more detail:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Wouldn't that be something like an application to an interpretation of evil? If the fawn mentioned in the example suffers a great deal days before its death then the evil component is a human interpretation or response. The result of such a death wasn't to cause the suffering of the animal but a result of natural events or chance. If this same fawn was physically unable to respond the the surrounding events then natural laws come into play in which the species promotes those that can survive. Etc.

re: #112 garden18

Funny finding this video on a conservative site because the vast majority of non-believers are liberals and leftists. In this video, I especially resent the use of a child to sell the message of non-belief (just as I resent the use of children to sell anything) since the faith of children is something beautiful to behold.

Children have no faith. They are indoctrinated. That's the point.

re: #116 Simple Voice

This is a conservative site, IMHO, because it is staunchly pro-Israel. Today, you are more likely to find strong supporters of Israel in the conservative than in the liberal camp.

Russian spacecraft landed on moon hours before Americans

Crash landed.

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

I'm good. Had a chance to visit family and spend a night up in Wisconsin. Good break from my normal routine.

Excellent!

I hope everyone had a nice celebration today!

re: #120 garden18

This is a conservative site, IMHO, because it is staunchly pro-Israel.

That is .... a strange statement.

re: #119 Austin_blue

I do not agree. Many children grow up more religious than their parents or their teachers. It is a fairly common phenomenon.

re: #121 Racer X

Interesting find. It goes along with the rediscovery of the original videos of the Apollo landing.

re: #117 Austin_blue

Mr. Moulding and Mr. Partridge have been doing cutting edge stuff (okay, they're freaking leftists) since I don't know when- at least 1979. Black Sea, Drums and Wires, &c, their early albums are brutal and wonderful.

Most modern musicians are leftists which is fine with me. I'm not really a so-con which may show up from time to time here. Heck, I grew up on Dylan right around 1979 -- although he always struck me as more of libertarian.

re: #124 garden18

Many children grow up more religious than their parents or their teachers. It is a fairly common phenomenon.

But not random.

Happy 4th of July, Independence Day to all the Americans, here.
The fireworks, were great this year!
How is everyone?

re: #121 Racer X

Russian spacecraft landed on moon hours before Americans

Crash landed.

Any landing you can walk away...

No wait. It was unmanned. ;)

re: #118 Gus 802

Wouldn't that be something like an application to an interpretation of evil? If the fawn mentioned in the example suffers a great deal days before its death then the evil component is a human interpretation or response. The result of such a death wasn't to cause the suffering of the animal but a result of natural events or chance. If this same fawn was physically unable to respond the the surrounding events then natural laws come into play in which the species promotes those that can survive. Etc.

Right, but the problem arises from the existence of suffering, combined with the idea of an all powerful, all knowing, all- good God.

The question becomes, since he knows everything and can do anything, why couldn't he have made the natural laws different than what they are? Say, create a world without forest fires. Or tsunamis. Or cancer.

Couldn't God have created the world just slightly differently, and relieved a lot of suffering? If he's all powerful, the answer is yes. So the dilemma is to find a reason why he did not.

(this is the meaning of Voltaire's Dr Pangloss in Candide, btw. Pangloss, no matter what horrible things happen, keeps saying we live in 'the best of all possible worlds'. That's a satire on Leibniz's response to the problem of evil.)

re: #105 iceweasel Well I certainly appreciate your recognizing a word "theodicy" of which I'd never heard, but having very briefly reviewed the Wiki article on it and the discussion page about it, [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
about all I'm prepared to say at this point is that I need to study up on this a lot more to be able to discuss it in any meaningful way with you.

Independence Day.

/took another seven years of bloody fighting to actually win our independence

re: #130 iceweasel

Right, but the problem arises from the existence of suffering, combined with the idea of an all powerful, all knowing, all- good God.

The question becomes, since he knows everything and can do anything, why couldn't he have made the natural laws different than what they are? Say, create a world without forest fires. Or tsunamis. Or cancer.

Couldn't God have created the world just slightly differently, and relieved a lot of suffering? If he's all powerful, the answer is yes. So the dilemma is to find a reason why he did not.

(this is the meaning of Voltaire's Dr Pangloss in Candide, btw. Pangloss, no matter what horrible things happen, keeps saying we live in 'the best of all possible worlds'. That's a satire on Leibniz's response to the problem of evil.)

I see what you mean. That deal a lot with the conundrum which is revealed in the lyrics of this song. I've seen many ask that question. I can't answer that question although I could postulate on some ideas based on a higher power however I don't think I'm really qualified to even dabble in those ideas.

re: #131 realwest

Well I certainly appreciate your recognizing a word "theodicy" of which I'd never heard, but having very briefly reviewed the Wiki article on it and the discussion page about it, [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
about all I'm prepared to say at this point is that I need to study up on this a lot more to be able to discuss it in any meaningful way with you.

No prob RW, I've appreciated our discussion and look forward to more. It's a complicated issue. I haven't read the wiki article so there may well be problems in it; the Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on it would be very good though.

re: #132 Killian Bundy

Independence Day.

/took another seven years of bloody fighting to actually win our independence

Quagmire!

re: #124 garden18

I do not agree. Many children grow up more religious than their parents or their teachers. It is a fairly common phenomenon.

Maybe so, but it is because they react against their original indoctrination. A human child is a blank canvas, absorbing all that it perceives. If it grows up more religious than its parents or teachers, so be it. You made an assumption based on my original statement based on religious bias. Read it again. My comment was neutral. Indoctrination can be pro-religion or anti-religion. The child is still a blank canvas on which bias is placed.

re: #109 Dark_Falcon
Hi Dark_Falcon - I have to get to sleep soon, but I'm curious as to why the "Carrier killers" are considered that. Just because they carry cruise missiles? It would seem to me that an Amerian Aircraft carrier, by itself, could defend against those cruise missiles, let alone an American Aircraft Carrier Battle Group.

re: #120 garden18

Overall, the commentors are much more Right Wing than the host on domestic policy, but he is a staunch conservative on foreign policy.

Tony.

re: #121 Racer X

People in Jodrell's control room can then be heard shouting "it's landing" and "it's going down much too fast" as they track Luna 15's final moments before it crashes.

reminded me of the lyrics to a Martha and the Muffins song. Caint find the video. yet.

LUNA PARK

Luna Park -- this is the future. Luna Park -- vision of beauty. Outside -- life was a problem. Inside -- we have potential:

Animals are trained to do things. Baby-hatching apparatus. Naughty midgets do it for you. Flying machines... Life in Venice simulated, Being the moon it's always changing!.

Where the waste was now a thousand towers rise like fire. At the junction of the centuries, Luna Park is born.

If you're lonely don't worry. We have ways to solve this problem. Nowhere else on earth as modern Lights alone are worth a fortune.

Luna Park - tell the people what to be. Luna Park - having fun is being free. You are -- flirting with boredom. We feel -- something is lacking.

Functionless except to overstimulate the mind. At the junction of the centuries, Luna Park is born.

M. Gane

re: #120 garden18

I don't think being staunchly pro-Israel makes one conservative. Yes, most anti-Israel sentiment comes from the left today, but there are many on the left that do support Israel. Alan Dershowitz is one that comes to mind.
And I bet if you looked around, some conservatives would not be huge supporters of Israel.
Pat Buchanan ring a bell?

re: #121 Racer X

Russian spacecraft landed on moon hours before Americans

Crash landed.

And, according to your link, damn close to where our Astronauts were taking that one small step bit, just before the Americans were about to leave. Fascinating stuff!
Thank you!

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Here's a post I wrote about this very song last week.

Texas Tea Party link, article & video
[Link: www.dallasnews.com...]

re: #141 realwest

And, according to your link, damn close to where our Astronauts were taking that one small step bit, just before the Americans were about to leave. Fascinating stuff!
Thank you!

Yes very curious that. Funny how stuff takes years (or decades) to find out what really happened.

re: #140 Simple Voice

I don't think being staunchly pro-Israel makes one conservative. Yes, most anti-Israel sentiment comes from the left today, but there are many on the left that do support Israel. Alan Dershowitz is one that comes to mind.
And I bet if you looked around, some conservatives would not be huge supporters of Israel.
Pat Buchanan ring a bell?

Ummm.. just a couple of thought here, but is the left pushing the Elders of Zion crap?. The Bilderbergers? What is the anti-Israel movement if it isn't the BS being pushed by Alex Jones? Where is the left in this?

re: #130 iceweasel

Ah, the great Lisbon earthquake. That really had seismic philosophical significance.

Pretty pretty sparkly boom

Mwahahahaha

Tonight I give full rein to the pyromaniac I keep inside

re: #138 Fierce Guppy

Overall, the commentors are much more Right Wing than the host on domestic policy, but he is a staunch conservative on foreign policy.

Tony.

I like the basics:

Life
Liberty
The pursuit of happiness.
Low taxes.
Space exploration.
Strong military.
Strong foreign policy.
Less regulation.
No Nanny State.
Privacy

OK, my list is getting too long.

re: #140 Simple Voice
Ah, with all due respect, Pat Buchanan is not a conservative and wasn't a conservative even before William F. Buckley Jr. threw him out of the conservative movement many, many years ago in National Review.
And I would also add that I think you'll find far more support for Israel on America's Right than on her Left.
Far more.

Well y'all it's been interesting today on LGF. I hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

re: #130 iceweasel

Right, but the problem arises from the existence of suffering, combined with the idea of an all powerful, all knowing, all- good God.

The question becomes, since he knows everything and can do anything, why couldn't he have made the natural laws different than what they are? Say, create a world without forest fires. Or tsunamis. Or cancer.

Couldn't God have created the world just slightly differently, and relieved a lot of suffering? If he's all powerful, the answer is yes. So the dilemma is to find a reason why he did not.

(this is the meaning of Voltaire's Dr Pangloss in Candide, btw. Pangloss, no matter what horrible things happen, keeps saying we live in 'the best of all possible worlds'. That's a satire on Leibniz's response to the problem of evil.)

You know, that was succinct and absolutely killer bee. Thank you. A better Shout Out for a Deist (as opposed to Atheist) world would be difficult to present.

re: #150 realwest

Well y'all it's been interesting today on LGF. I hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

Later RW.

re: #148 Gus 802

I like the basics:

Life
Liberty
The pursuit of happiness.
Low taxes.
Space exploration.
Strong military.
Strong foreign policy.
Less regulation.
No Nanny State.
Privacy

OK, my list is getting too long.

We're on the same page there, bro.

Tony.

re: #133 Gus 802

I see what you mean. That deal a lot with the conundrum which is revealed in the lyrics of this song. I've seen many ask that question. I can't answer that question although I could postulate on some ideas based on a higher power however I don't think I'm really qualified to even dabble in those ideas.

Exactly, it's the conundrum of the song. I think every human being who is religious or even just spiritual has wrestled with the issue. And every religion's theology does, and each posits some kind of answer, or attempt at answering it. Even so, the debates go on within the religion itself, and in theology and philosophy. People (theologians, philosophers, etc.) spend their entire lives working on this one problem. It's not going to be resolved easily or soon, or ever. It's really about finding a "workable enough" solution for an individual.

That's why ultimately, every religion winds up positing something a little like "god works in mysterious ways" to handle at least part of the problem-- the idea is that you have to just have faith that God has his reasons, and we can't know them.

re: #94 reine.de.tout

When Bad Things Happen to Good People, by Harold S. Kushner:

reine, I'm glad you mentioned the Kushner book. It's one of the most profound on the subject I've ever read, and I've bought countless copies to give to friends who were hurting.

I think his argument comes down to the fact that God can't be both all-powerful and all-benevolent. You have to pick one or the other, and I think he leans toward the second option. Do you agree?

However, this is heresy to fundamentalist Christians. Without the assumption that God is entirely in control, their system has no meaning.

Do I recall that you're Catholic? How do you square Kushner's thoughts with the traditions of your particular faith? If that's not too personal...

re: #143 Floral Giraffe

OUch. Looks kinda like the end of the road. Unless the economy really tanks I suspect this will be the end of the Tea Party thing. I watched FOX a little this afternoon. They didn't even mention it.

re: #148 Gus 802

That's a list I can live with!

Evian Roller Babies US

re: #137 realwest

Hi Dark_Falcon - I have to get to sleep soon, but I'm curious as to why the "Carrier killers" are considered that. Just because they carry cruise missiles? It would seem to me that an Amerian Aircraft carrier, by itself, could defend against those cruise missiles, let alone an American Aircraft Carrier Battle Group.

Hello, RW. The answer, I would think, lies in the number of cruise missiles an SSGN can launch. The theory, as with many Russian tactics, relies on numbers overwhelming the enemy defenses. A carrier can defend itself, but fire enough missiles you've got a decent chance of getting a hit. A pair of Yasens might well be able to heavily damage a Nimitz-class CVN, and that makes them worth the money to Putin.

The other scary thing about the Yasen is that it could be used to mount long range non-nuclear strikes against the US mainland, firing a cruise missile barrage before withdrawing. If some ways, they scare me more the Typhoons do, since their weapons are far more likely to be used.

re: #140 Simple Voice

Yes, there are conservative anti-Semites such as Buchanan, James Baker, and Ann Coulter.

re: #154 iceweasel

Exactly, it's the conundrum of the song. I think every human being who is religious or even just spiritual has wrestled with the issue. And every religion's theology does, and each posits some kind of answer, or attempt at answering it. Even so, the debates go on within the religion itself, and in theology and philosophy. People (theologians, philosophers, etc.) spend their entire lives working on this one problem. It's not going to be resolved easily or soon, or ever. It's really about finding a "workable enough" solution for an individual.

That's why ultimately, every religion winds up positing something a little like "god works in mysterious ways" to handle at least part of the problem-- the idea is that you have to just have faith that God has his reasons, and we can't know them.

I was thinking this as well. If we take away man-made evil and think about natural evil: disease; natural disasters such as tsunamis, earthquakes, etc; that humankind is still lucky (or one could say blessed) that we have this wonderful world in which to live in. We have our bodies and ability to communicate, create art, math, science, music and dance. How even though we must toil against the impersonal events that chance brings us from time to time how we have the honor of being able to be present in what in the end is really a wonderful world. And here we are.

re: #149 realwest

Well said.

re: #160 garden18

Ann Coulter is an anti-Semite? link link link!

Tony.

re: #157 Irenicum

That's a list I can live with!

Should I type it up and send it the RNC? ;)

re: #120 garden18

This is a conservative site, IMHO, because it is staunchly pro-Israel. Today, you are more likely to find strong supporters of Israel in the conservative than in the liberal camp.

I don't see that LGF can be labeled. Charles seems conservative in some areas, liberal in others, and midline in others. We minions seem to lean more specifically as either conservatives or liberals.

The thread topics are all over the map - some bland, some 'controversy-enticing, some riotous, some patriotic, some politically liberal-minded, some politically conservative-minded; and all an invitation/challenge for lively debate.

Those of us who've been here a while pretty much know how the other lizards stand on various topics, know whose buttons are easily pushed, and understand where the lines in the sand are on various subjects. We decide where we'll jump in, and where we'll demur based on those understandings.

LGF is not a one-size-fits-all room; that's why it's an interesting place to be part of.

Not the least of its appeal is the opportunity to be exposed to some really fine and articulate thinkers, such as buzzsawmonkey - and a daily lineup of subtle (or not so) comedians, AND, the most talented punsters on the web.

OT - Installed Firefox 3.5 - lost my Norton Password Safe:
This is the explanation:

"Thank you for contacting Norton Support.
I understand from your message that the Norton tool bar is missing in your Firefox browser when you have upgraded the fire fox browser.
The Norton Toolbar is not currently supported when using Firefox 3.5. The reason why you are facing this issue is Firefox 3.5 is not yet supported by Norton Internet Security Online 2008. Until Firefox 3.5 is supported by a future release of Norton Internet Security Online, if you want to use the Norton Toolbar, you must uninstall Firefox 3.5 and install Firefox 2.0.An update will be released to fix this problem."

I had no less than 25 passwords secured. I haven't had to physically type out my username/password for all my
online accounts ie., banking, cards, utilities, forums etc.,
etc., in many months. I PRAY I can retrieve this function with passwords intact by uninstalling 3.5 etc.
Just passing this on as a warning. I can't remember what I had for dinner tonight let alone remember where I jotted down all the various passwords I've created/updated/changed over the years....I had nuthin' to do anyways.Now where the hell is the gas nozzle located...anyone got a match ?
Actually, it could be worse. Loosing them to a hard drive
crash would be MUCH WOR..*&%#$%%)_*&%$#((^%$@
*&&&^%@^()*)_*_*^&%%*_)__(_*_*& ;^&^%$%$$.....

re: #156 Killgore Trout

Well, tfk was pushing this event hard... assuming he went, we could get a first hand report from him.

re: #156 Killgore Trout

Did you have an nice Independence Day?

The Fightin' Side of Me

re: #167 freetoken

I thought TFK was hosting a Tea Party? Might have misunderstood....

re: #165 GGMac

... AND, the most talented punsters on the web.

We Pun - You Stier.

Can someone find a good version of the Stones' You Can't Always Get What You Want for me, please?

re: #172 Sharmuta

Can someone find a good version of the Stones' You Can't Always Get What You Want for me, please?

Good call!

re: #170 Floral Giraffe

He's been pushing the South Fork tea party for several weeks here. I gather tfk is quite the fan of local radio talker Jeff Bolton.

re: #166 leftover54

Get rid of Norton and go with Trend Micro. It works fine with my Firefox 3.0.11

re: #172 Sharmuta

Can someone find a good version of the Stones' You Can't Always Get What You Want for me, please?

You Can't Always Get What You Want HD

re: #155 ShanghaiEd

I've always had a problem with Kushner's book for the reason you mentioned. I believe that God is all good AND all powerful. Kushner decides it's an either/or thing. Logically, I agree it is. But scripture posits both that God is all good and all powerful and that evil exists. Thus an answer that affirms both his omnipotence and omnibenevolence is required for orthodox Christians and Jews. Many rabbis disagree with rabbi Kushner. I'm not a fundie by any means, even though I am theologically conservative. I'm just an Augustinian Democrat!

re: #172 Sharmuta

Here you go!

And, for good measure, Angie!

re: #164 Gus 802

Absafreakinlutely!

re: #165 GGMac

Very well put!

re: #179 Irenicum

Absafreakinlutely!

For the Republic!

=)

Why do yo think Charles posted that video?

re: #168 Floral Giraffe

Did you have an nice Independence Day?

Very nice. I slow cooked some lamb shanks, drank lots of beer. I climbed out on the roof to watch the fireworks. Now I'm just consoling the cats until the noise dies down.

re: #174 freetoken

He's been pushing the South Fork tea party for several weeks here. I gather tfk is quite the fan of local radio talker Jeff Bolton.

If it was held at South Fork, does that make Ron Paul JR Ewing?

/Dallas joke (1980's prime-time soap that my mother was a big fan of)

re: #165 GGMac

An clarification: a lot of comedians here, but also an amazing number of genuinely witty Lizards.

The comedy is guffaw-guffaw. The wit of some is jaw-drop-worthy genius.

re: #182 Austin_blue

Why do yo think Charles posted that video?

Today?

re: #171 freetoken

And since I'm Augustinian, I believe in eternal "pun"ishment!

re: #172 Sharmuta

Can someone find a good version of the Stones' You Can't Always Get What You Want for me, please?

Remember this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiw_3olyJ2c

From The Big Chill.

Weird, that link didn't post the video.

I remember when Babba posted this exact video in response to me "coming out" as agnostic-atheist. q; Good times!

/and good afternoon t'ye.

Hey, gotta get SOME sleep! G'nite Lizardim.

re: #121 Racer X

Russian spacecraft landed on moon hours before Americans

Crash landed.

What an ignorant, garbled, and ultimately misleading story.
The Luna 15mission is well known and was widely publicized at the time. This was not "an attempt to beat the Americans to the Moon," as the blaring headline proclaims, since many unmanned probes had already landed on the Moon one way or another. Luna 15 was a sample return mission, intended to return the first lunar samples to Earth just ahead of Apollo.
The first human manufactured object to hit the Moon was the Soviet Luna 2 on September 12th, 1959, almost 10 full years before Apollo 11. Three US Ranger probes crashed into the Moon in 1964 and 1965, as they were designed to do, and five Surveyor series probes soft-landed on the Moon in 1966-68. Several earlier Luna probes had soft-landed starting in 1966.

I remember this song from way back, I don't like it now and didn't like then, every time I hear it I'm reminded of a couple of sniveling cry babies who blame God for everything and can't take responsibility for their own actions.

re: #177 Irenicum

I've always had a problem with Kushner's book for the reason you mentioned. I believe that God is all good AND all powerful. Kushner decides it's an either/or thing. Logically, I agree it is. But scripture posits both that God is all good and all powerful and that evil exists. Thus an answer that affirms both his omnipotence and omnibenevolence is required for orthodox Christians and Jews. Many rabbis disagree with rabbi Kushner. I'm not a fundie by any means, even though I am theologically conservative. I'm just an Augustinian Democrat!

Hi, Irenicum...I don't think positing that evil exists is necessarily a way of solving the contradiction. Doesn't "all powerful" mean that God has the power to protect us from evil, but sometimes chooses not to, for reasons we can't understand?

I don't recall the exact passage Kushner uses to address that, but I think the metaphor is about a Nazi physician, and his argument went off like a bomb in my head...scattered all my presumptions around, and nothing has been the same since. Do you remember the part I'm talking about?

BTW, it's good to encounter an Augustinian Democrat. Not exactly the largest demographic these days, is it? :)

Time for me to sign off. Goodnight, all.

The Temptations - Ain't Too Proud to Beg

Hit HQ on the text link -- better sound quality.

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

Time for me to sign off. Goodnight, all.

Night DF.

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

Goodnight, DF...fly safely into the arms of Morpheus, or your god of choice.

re: #193 dapperdave

I remember this song from way back, I don't like it now and didn't like then, every time I hear it I'm reminded of a couple of sniveling cry babies who blame God for everything and can't take responsibility for their own actions.

Was it "We're Two Sniveling Cry Babies"?

Smokey Robinson and the Miracles - I Second That Emotion

re: #193 dapperdave

I remember this song from way back, I don't like it now and didn't like then, every time I hear it I'm reminded of a couple of sniveling cry babies who blame God for everything and can't take responsibility for their own actions.

Might this be it?

re: #199 Austin_blue

Give or take a few/

'tis a nice night.

A fog has descended upon the neighborhood, which apparently has dampened the fireworks a bit. Last year, it was constant until about 3:00 am.

Loved every minute of it.

re: #201 Shiplord Kirel

Might this be it?

[Video]

Hee Haw, classic.

re: #94 reine.de.tout

My cousin's husband is a Rabbi, in Ottawa. They are originally from Boston. Their son zt"l was a friend of Rabbi Kushner's kids. They were in the same Day school in a Boston suburb.

He would sleep over, on the floor, as he was approaching his Bar Mitzvah, and the disease he had, progeria was advancing quickly.

The Kushners are an amazing family, and the Rabbi has helped so many people with his book, and his wisdom.

I am off to sleep....I didn't realize how late it is!

Sweet dreams, Lizards! G'nite, all.

This may already have been posted, but it I'm glad to see this was nothing more than recycled trash.
Sarah Palin is not being investigated by the feds.

Liberal bloggers lying about her? What? I. Am. Shocked!

re: #182 Austin_blue

I think he is either atheist or agnostic, which goes along with his fierce belief in evolution (although people who believe in God may also believe in evolution). I would think that someone with his positive views about Jews and Israel would have a more unwavering fatih in God. Ultimately, Jews have a rightful claim on the Land of Israel because God gave it to them. That's why Jews returned to Israel after an absence of 2000 years, responding to a deep longing and sense of divine purpose and divine right that a hiatus of two millenia could not expunge.

New thread! open at that ;^)

re: #206 kynna

IT'S THE RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACY LUBRICATING THE GEARS OF JUSTICE TO MAKE SURE SHE SLIPS RIGHT THROUGH!

/ q;

Happy Fourth, lizards. I wish I knew how to attach a windows e-mail pic. One of my BIL's went to the Prescott, AZ tea party and was wearing his Vietnam vet ball cap. Out of the blue John McCain came over and shook his hand. BIL's little grandson jumped into McCains lap and said I wish you were the pres right now. OMG I have the cutest picture here.

re: #210 Pvt Bin Jammin

Somewhere a kos kid is looking for the remaining shards of his head.

re: #172 Sharmuta

Can someone find a good version of the Stones' You Can't Always Get What You Want for me, please?

The audio quality for this one is quite good.
You Can't Always Get What You Want for me

Of course, it is The Rolling Stones, so the audio is never going to be a sublime acoustic experience.

Tony.

re: #210 Pvt Bin Jammin

Upload it to imageshack and toss us a link!

re: #207 garden18

I think he is either atheist or agnostic, which goes along with his fierce belief in evolution (although people who believe in God may also believe in evolution). I would think that someone with his positive views about Jews and Israel would have a more unwavering fatih in God. Ultimately, Jews have a rightful claim on the Land of Israel because God gave it to them. That's why Jews returned to Israel after an absence of 2000 years, responding to a deep longing and sense of divine purpose and divine right that a hiatus of two millenia could not expunge.

garden, your post raises a question I should have considered before, but haven't. Are there ways to justify the divine claim on Israel to someone who does not, for whatever reason, believe the scriptures are divinely inspired? Or does their stance effectively end the conversation?

I look forward to your reply, if you have time. Thanks!

re: #207 garden18

I think he is either atheist or agnostic, which goes along with his fierce belief in evolution (although people who believe in God may also believe in evolution). I would think that someone with his positive views about Jews and Israel would have a more unwavering fatih in God. Ultimately, Jews have a rightful claim on the Land of Israel because God gave it to them. That's why Jews returned to Israel after an absence of 2000 years, responding to a deep longing and sense of divine purpose and divine right that a hiatus of two millenia could not expunge.

Awwww, I think you think too much. I think Charles is a Deist. God, whatever anyone's concept of God is, created the cosmos (including evolution) and has since kept his hand off the handle.

Just to keep everything in proper perspective:

It (4th of July) ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.
--John Adams

re: #214 ShanghaiEd

Israel needs to tell the world this: "We could not give up a single inch of the Land of Israel even if we wanted to because it is not ours to give. God gave it to us. He wants us to have it and no one else." If we said that loud and clear, there would be no more crisis. This is what the world wants us to say.
We need only to say it.
To answer your question: people who do not believe in the Jews' divine right to the Land of Israel are a tiny minority.

re: #217 garden18

Thanks, garden. I was just wondering if there was an alternate argument for people who aren't scripturally minded.

re: #217 garden18

people who do not believe in the Jews' divine right to the Land of Israel are a tiny minority.

No, they're not. If they were a tiny minority, it wouldn't be a contentious issue that occupies so many countries' time and effort.

There's a school of thought among some Reform that the divine right to the land expired many years ago; that there is now still a right, but for entirely non-divine reasons.

The story goes Andy Partridge and Todd Rundgren fought the whole time they were recording Skylarking. I'm fairly certain I heard and interview with Andy Partridge where he said that yes, the album was brilliant, yes Rundgren is a genius, and no he wouldn't work with him again.

Regardless, Skylarking is a fantastic record, and "The Man Who Sailed Around His Soul" is without question one of the most underrated pop songs ever recorded.

To me, the point of "Dear God" isn't blaming God for all the evil, but all the horrible things done in his name by his 'supporters'. It is a criticism of the hypocrisy of the 'righteous' and religious doctrine.

Late to the thread, and only here for a quick visit, but what the heck.

Why didn't God just create lots of angels? Is there something insufficient about angels? If so, why is it so many people's dream to hang out with them for ever?

Also, do believers ever feel a twinge of resentment towards the angels? I mean - they've kinda got it easy haven't they? No perilous trial of life to determine their place in eternity! Oh to be simply born in heaven - what a break!

Some 'romantic godlessness' from 'Live'. Great song.

"It's ok to believe in God, as long as he doesn't do anything." -Michael Shermer

re: #83 BatGuano

I love synchronicity. It happens to me all the time. I think it here, it comes out there.

I love Serendipity.

re: #155 ShanghaiEd

reine, I'm glad you mentioned the Kushner book. It's one of the most profound on the subject I've ever read, and I've bought countless copies to give to friends who were hurting.

I think his argument comes down to the fact that God can't be both all-powerful and all-benevolent. You have to pick one or the other, and I think he leans toward the second option. Do you agree?

However, this is heresy to fundamentalist Christians. Without the assumption that God is entirely in control, their system has no meaning.

Do I recall that you're Catholic? How do you square Kushner's thoughts with the traditions of your particular faith? If that's not too personal...

Well, the thread is dead, but this is the proper place to respond, so here it goes.

I first read Kushner's thoughts in an excerpt or condensed version years ago, and they had a profound effect on me. I don't think there is any need to "square" this with my beliefs as a Catholic - We believe that God gave man a free will to choose (righteousness over sin, etc). It's not a stretch, therefore, to believe that God does not 'control' our lives, but that we do. And some things (illness for instance) are simply part of life, and not within our control.

During times of great trial (my daughter's illness, a growth in her skull that had to be removed and biopsied; my parents' sudden illness, both at the same time, my mother's death 3 weeks after diagnosis, my dad's death 4 months later), I prayed, not for the particular outcome that I wanted (a selfish prayer, imo), but for the wisdom to do for my family the best that needed to be done - to get through each day as a rational person needing to make decisions (rather than letting emotions overcome my sense), and for the strength and peace to accept that once I had done everything humanly possible, the situations were simply out of my hands.

People may scoff at this next part, and if they do, well, they do.
I got all I asked for. When I most needed God to help me with strength, peace of mind, wisdom - I asked for it and I received it. The calmness, the peace, the strength just washed over me. It took away my fear - not my sadness and grief, those of course were there, but my fear.

I don't think there is any need to "square" Kushner's thoughts with my faith. God gives us life, then steps aside, doesn't interfere in the day-to-day details. Those are up to us. Bad things (loss of loved ones, sadness) are simply part and parcel of what it means to live, and Kusher is right, it's the wrong questin to ask "Why did God do this to me". The better question (for me anyway) is "Am I willing to seek and accept" the wisdom, peace, strength that God will provide me to get through the bad times.

re: #111 Austin_blue

Charles:

Thank you. A perfect song for a Deist on Independence Day!

?

Don't Deists believe in God?

re: #218 ShanghaiEd

Thanks, garden. I was just wondering if there was an alternate argument for people who aren't scripturally minded.

Coming in late on this and noting that I have a certain bias in being Jewish.... The fact is that the Jews never entirely left the area that is now Israel. The Diaspora did not remove every Jews and, as soon as the Romans had dispersed them, some turned around and headed right back.

Returns of the Jews to the holy lands have been going on ever since. One of the most significant returns was in 1492, when Spain kicked it substantial Jewish population out and two-thirds of the refugees were taken in by Beyazid II, sultan of the Ottoman Empire. The Jews settled throughout that empire -- Thessalonika in what is now Greece may have been the most popular destination -- but the Holy Land was seen as, at least, a place of pilgrimage. Many Jews would make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, in old age, so that they could die there. The Ottoman government generally treated the Jews as fair as any other ethnic group -- even Muslim ethnic groups like the Arabs.

The thing is, much of Zionism and the modern history of Israel is told from the point of view of the Ashkenasim -- the Jews of Northern and Eastern Europe, who were the primary founders of the Zionist movement and the primary victims of the Holocaust. It makes things appear as if the Jewish return to the Holy Land only started in the late 19th century.

The Sephardic Jews -- those of Mediterranean and Middle East, have been in the Holy Land for generations -- as noted above, some never left. They are about half the Jewish population in Israel and currently have a faster population growth than the Ashkenasi Jews. Indeed, Hebrew as spoken in Israel (and more in more, as prayed by Jews in the U.S.) generally uses Sephardic, not Ashkenasi pronunciation. (Which is why, several generations ago, Jews referred to the sabbath as "Shabbes," but now tend to refer to it as "Shabbat."

Getting back on track, with the break up of the Ottomans, leading through European colonies, then to the smaller nations of the modern Middle east, the Jewish ethnic group has as much claim to their own nation as does any Muslim Arab group or sub-group. As much as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and some other Muslim leaders in the Middle East would like to think that the Jews are recent European occupiers, that's just not the case. Jews have continuously been in the Holy Land and are, without reference to religious scripture, as entitled to their own nation as any other ethnic group in the region.

And I should save this to repost in some more active discussion, one of these days.

re: #216 garden18

Just to keep everything in proper perspective:

It (4th of July) ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.
--John Adams

John Adams was a Deist, who believed the universe had a creator, but that the creator did not interfere or communicate with human beings. He signed the 1796 treaty with Tripoli, which states, "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Another quote from John Adams: "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

Adams, like most of the founding fathers, was passionate about the separation of church and state. Unfortunately, many people with religious agendas distort his words, to make it seem as if he intended the US to be a Christian nation -- this could not be more wrong.

I'm surprised no one mentioned "River of Orchids" - that song introduced me to XTC. Happy belated 4th. :)

XTC without a mention of "Making Plans for Nigel"? One of my favs.

re: #35 Killgore Trout

And is evangelistic.

re: #99 Irenicum

Sometimes in our quest to remove the mystery surrounding God, we forget how attracted people are to a mystery.

What happens when I die?

You'll find out soon enough.

Deep theological questions + shallow-thinking pop band = silly song.

re: #15 Sharmuta

I just find it an interesting conundrum. If he doesn't believe in God -- why write a song to Him? I think there are times many people have struggles with reconciling bad things with a caring God, and can perhaps relate in part to this song.

It's not a song to "him" per se, but rather a one-sided dialog. In other words,

"hey god, you #@^*! jerk! listen up, I've got something to say."

Sort of like a dismissal of the orthodoxy surrounding the worship of this particular deity you refer to as "him."

It is deep song though. I remember when the song had considerable airtime and reading about the reactions of some religious folk to it. The response in post #233 is a classic example of some of the reactions. Lizard Hanoch's response strikes me as incredibly shallow.

re: #234 eclectic infidel

Eclectic Infidel:

I'll confess, the comment wasn't meant as a theological discourse. But calling the song "deep", given the truly great theological works that explore the issues raised in the song, simply demeans the term. I really hope society hasn't come to the point where people believe the best resources on the subject of theodicy are pop songs.

re: #235 Hanoch

Eclectic Infidel:

I'll confess, the comment wasn't meant as a theological discourse. But calling the song "deep", given the truly great theological works that explore the issues raised in the song, simply demeans the term. I really hope society hasn't come to the point where people believe the best resources on the subject of theodicy are pop songs.

I seriously doubt that people consider pop songs to be primary sources for this great debate. In a simple way, XTC's song serves as a medium from which the band climbs upon its soap box. Given the great volumes that already exist concerning god/existence of god/morality, etc., in no way can this song demean the term, IMO.

re: #225 reine.de.tout

Reine: Many thanks, for your wonderful reply. My best to you.

re: #237 ShanghaiEd

Reine: Many thanks, for your wonderful reply. My best to you.

Welcome.
And best to you too.

re: #225 reine.de.tout

During times of great trial ... I prayed, not for the particular outcome that I wanted (a selfish prayer, imo), but for the wisdom to do for my family the best that needed to be done ....
People may scoff at this next part, and if they do, well, they do.
I got all I asked for.

Yes, people will scoff at it, and for very good reasons. During my times of "great trial", I didn't pray for anything, yet I still somehow managed to get all the same things that you did.

Of course, your experience is a simple exercise in self delusion. Even given completely random odds, there would have been a 50% chance of you "receiving" what you asked for. However, in reality, most people manage to find the kind of "wisdom" that you're talking about in most cases, and even if they don't find it they still rationalize their actions after the fact to make them seem more effective. So, realistically, the odds were probably closer to 90%. So what you've done is set up a scenario where you are 90% likely to have the desired outcome regardless of outside interference, and then you went and asked god to cover the remaining 10%. Even more importantly - if you hadn't "gotten" what you asked for, you wouldn't have blamed god for it - you would have simply accepted it as a personal failure on your part. Theists always do that - you always hear musicians and sports players thanking God and Jesus for helping them win, but you never hear the losers cursing him for making them lose.

In other words, not only are the circumstances heavily weighed in "God's" favor, but you refuse to count his failures! Under such a system, God literally can not lose. It's like giving your 15 year old kid a math test that consists entirely of questions such as "2+2=?", throwing out all the wrong answers, and then claiming he's a genius because he got every question right. It's an insane way of measuring success, yet the vast majority of theists seem to see nothing wrong with it.

re: #239 c6gunner

I feel the same way. I've had friends who believe that their success is due to prayer and yet I also have success and I don't pray.

*****

I'm so glad that this video was posted as I had completely forgotten this song.

Thanks Charles.

Gee, an XTC thread and I almost missed it! I've been a huge fan of this most underrated band since 1979 when they were part of the New Wave era. I have all their albums and plenty of other stuff they released in singles and EPs.

Some of you may find it interesting that the song "Dear God" was not on the original release US LP of Skylarking, but it was on the original British import LP, I have them both. I suppose they didn't want trouble with believers here in the US. Given how obscure XTC is in the States, I don't think anyone would have noticed. Later releases on CD here in the US include the song.

In my humble opinion XTC is one of the greatest pop/rock bands of all time.

"I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to argue my case with G-d" (Job 13:3).

re: #38 IslandLibertarian

The song is about daddy issues and problems with authority.
God is the scapegoat.

The song is about Atheism.

The fact that he's writing a letter to god to explain
that he doesn't believe in god is just use of irony