Texas Creationism Follies, the Sequel

Science • Views: 3,147

When the Texas legislature kicked out creationist dentist Don McLeroy as head of the state’s Board of Education, I wrote:

It’s almost certain that Perry will select another creationist; he did, after all, pick McLeroy not once but twice, even after McLeroy’s Biblical literalist views were notorious. There’s no shortage of creationist Republicans currently on the School Board, so this debacle is going to have another chapter after all.

Well, here’s the next chapter in the Texas Creationism Follies, as Republican Governor Rick Perry’s likely pick for the best person to supervise the education of Texas children is Cynthia Dunbar (R-Richmond), another religious fanatic with theocratic leanings who considers public education a “subtly deceptive tool of perversion.”

In a book published last year, Dunbar argued the country’s founding fathers created “an emphatically Christian government” and that government should be guided by a “biblical litmus test.” She endorses a belief system that requires “any person desiring to govern have a sincere knowledge and appreciation for the Word of God in order to rightly govern.”

Also in the book, she calls public education a “subtly deceptive tool of perversion.”

The establishment of public schools is unconstitutional and even “tyrannical,” she wrote, because it threatens the authority of families, granted by God through Scripture, to direct the instruction of their children.

Dunbar home-schooled her own children.

Also see

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993 comments
1 marsl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:26:07pm

Creationists strikes again...

2 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:26:23pm
3 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:26:34pm

I swear the GOP wants to go extinct.

4 Gang of One  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:27:21pm

Maybe we shoulda let Mexico keep Texas?

/ducks, runs for cover.

5 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:27:35pm

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

It is a fair question whether someone who home-schooled their own children should be permitted to sit on a public school board.

Just as it should be asked of opponents to school vouchers where they send their kids, public or private schools.

6 Kragar  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:27:43pm

I got a crazy idea. Disband the board of education and refund the money back to the taxpayers. Let the taxpayers pay for their own kids education and quit letting government agendas on either side have any influence over it.

Which is why it will never happen.

7 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:27:52pm

SEn. Burris ( D ) to announce tomorrow he will NOT run for re-election on 2010

8 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:28:54pm

Y'all remember the line in "Joe Kidd", "that boy don't ever learn"? The gov of Texas is stuck in stupid. Somebody needs to reboot his ass.

9 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:29:37pm

re: #7 Nevergiveup

SEn. Burris ( D ) to announce tomorrow he will NOT run for re-election on 2010

All he cared about was padding his resume..It was never about being a public servant. Fucking Shameless

10 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:30:45pm

US panel demands Iran release 7 Baha'is on trial
Published: 07.10.09, 01:00 / Israel News
A US government agency is demanding that Iran release seven Baha'i prisoners rather than submit them to trials on charges of spying for Israel and religious charges.

The US Commission on International Religious Freedom is responding to a plea from Roxana Saberi, an Iranian-American journalist who spent almost four months in an Iranian jail. Saberi says two of the Baha'is were her cellmates. In her letter to the USCIRF, released Thursday, Saberi said intercession in behalf of the Baha'is would show Iranian authorities that "the Iranian people's human rights are a matter of international concern." (AP)

Are the Baha'i left wing radicals who hate America? No ha. Then I don't think Obama is interested, sorry.

11 yochanan  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:34:03pm

re: #7 Nevergiveup

is that before or after he is arrested? as blago's chief of staff has flipped for the feds!

12 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:34:42pm
The establishment of public schools is unconstitutional and even “tyrannical,” she wrote, because it threatens the authority of families, granted by God through Scripture, to direct the instruction of their children.

Great. So the person to be placed in charge of Texas public education hates public education.

To slightly steal (and change) slacktivist's simile, this is like appointing a fire chief who is also an arsonist.

13 Rolltideroll  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:34:42pm

Let me rewrite the headline.
Shamans and Witch doctors seize control of learning center, magic to be taught to all.

14 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:35:04pm
“It would certainly cause angst among the same members of the pagan left that rejected Don McLeroy because he was a man of faith,” said David Bradley, R-Beaumont, one of the seven socially conservative members on the 15-person board.

I guess to Bradley, I would be a member of the pagan left, but I think McLeroy was rejected because he was incompetent. Dunbar is another idiot move for Rick Perry. Government should be guided by a “biblical litmus test,” indeed.
Dimwit.

15 anchors_aweigh  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:35:18pm

re: #4 Gang of One

Maybe we shoulda let Mexico keep Texas?

/ducks, runs for cover.

Actually, the USA had nothing to do with Texas's independence. Texas is the only state that was an independent nation before statehood.

Just curious, where are you from?

16 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:35:23pm

the perversion is his interpretation of the Constitution

17 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:36:18pm

Well the dive for the bottom of the idiot pool is going full bore. I wonder if they are intentionally trying to dumb us down. Or are they that dumb orginally. Dunbar definitely didn't learn thing one about the writers of the American Constitution.

18 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:36:19pm
she calls public education a “subtly deceptive tool of perversion.”

Yeah, but is she wrong?

19 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:36:54pm

I feel a little sick.

20 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:37:00pm

Intelligence does not seem to be a prerequisite to religious fanaticism.

21 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:37:32pm
22 zombie  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:38:12pm

Rick Perry is beclowning himself yet again.

Y'know, this is a free country, where anyone can have whatever opinion they want. But it still shocks me to my core that a deranged theocratic religio-fascist like Dunbar would get any support from the general public. A few hundred fringies, sure: but the backing of the state's governor? Sheer madness!

23 marsl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:38:41pm

Baha'is are persecuted in Iran for religious matters. But the "peace activists" only have eyes for the Fakestinians (a.k.a Jordyptians) and their stories about the "Israeli apartheid".

If those "peace activists" just spend more time watching other countries in the Middle East and forget Israel, maybe they would find out the reality of the Middle East.
But the reality is: they don't care about the Baha'is or the Kurds. Or others. They are after the Jews.
Anti-zionism is only a way to lefties can express their anti-semitism without being called anti-semites.

24 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:38:43pm

re: #15 anchors_aweigh

Actually, the USA had nothing to do with Texas's independence. Texas is the only state that was an independent nation before statehood.

Just curious, where are you from?

Not really accurate. The Republic of Vermont was around, from about 1777 to 1791.

25 SlartyBartfast  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:38:45pm

"I don't care what the writer's intention was--I intend to use this here Bible as a science text!"

26 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:39:09pm

re: #18 RunningBare

Yeah, but is she wrong?

Well you both might not see eye to eye on what the exact perversion is. I am willing to bet that she would see your truth as a perversion and vice versa.

27 zombie  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:39:19pm

re: #21 buzzsawmonkey

An acidhat with base motives?

That is really stretching the parameters of "pun," but I updinged you anyway for effort.

28 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:39:34pm

re: #18 RunningBare
I can only comment on my little corner of WA state. We haven't had the uproars and such over idiot books in class, like Andy has Two Mommies or Sally Has two Daddies, nor has there been a great leftward lurch in curriculum. I did have to have a little talk with my oldest boys history teacher. He was a bit confused on how we ended up in WWII!

29 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:40:16pm

re: #14 jaunte

I guess to Bradley, I would be a member of the pagan left, but I think McLeroy was rejected because he was incompetent. Dunbar is another idiot move for Rick Perry. Government should be guided by a “biblical litmus test,” indeed.
Dimwit.

It's not just an idiot move though, it's a profoundly frightening one. A 'biblical litmus test' for government?

30 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:40:30pm

re: #25 SlartyBartfast

"I don't care what the writer's intention was--I intend to use this here Bible as a science text!"

I would laugh, if I wasn't busy crying. I have heard similar statements before in my past.

31 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:40:38pm

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Even if they were, the threat of him stamping his feet in anger hardly has them quaking in their boots.

32 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:40:39pm
33 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:41:03pm

re: #29 iceweasel
Theocrats, Christian instead of Muslim, but still the same.

34 yochanan  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:41:07pm

re: #18 RunningBare

NO

35 Rolltideroll  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:41:19pm

re: #30 BlueCanuck
It's like the time we learned in Science class how Paul denied Jesus.

36 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:41:29pm

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

You've got to push the envelope. "To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield," and all that.

*boing, boing, boing* *SNAAAAP*!

Ow.

37 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:42:18pm

re: #15 anchors_aweigh

Actually, the USA had nothing to do with Texas's independence. Texas is the only state that was an independent nation before statehood.

Just curious, where are you from?

what about California?

ever taken a look at our state flag?

38 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:42:24pm

fortunately it should be a quick vote in the legislature...they know the routine

39 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:42:55pm

re: #37 redc1c4

what about California?

ever taken a look at our state flag?

Do I have to? I don' wanna! ;)

40 Rolltideroll  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:43:11pm

re: #38 albusteve
The key question is why the are familiar with the routine. This is idiocy.

41 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:43:29pm

re: #26 BlueCanuck

Well you both might not see eye to eye on what the exact perversion is. I am willing to bet that she would see your truth as a perversion and vice versa.

Well, let me put it to you this way - I think a large portion of what's wrong with society today, and the way our children act, is a direct result of public education, especially since that public education is prtty much in the control of liberals, leftists, and unions. Forget the three R's, let's waste time, money, and resources teaching children about how fragile the environment is, how to use condoms, the proper techniques for Fisting, and how to tattle on your parents... Our publically educated children may grow up to be fat, dumb, and lazy, but dammit, they'll not lack for self-esteem, and more importantly, they'll be subservient and compliant to authority.

But, your mileage may vary.

42 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:43:30pm

re: #22 zombie

Rick Perry is beclowning himself yet again.

Y'know, this is a free country, where anyone can have whatever opinion they want. But it still shocks me to my core that a deranged theocratic religio-fascist like Dunbar would get any support from the general public. A few hundred fringies, sure: but the backing of the state's governor? Sheer madness!

Freedom to be an asshole, to associate with other assholes, and to worship with others like a bunch of assholes - America rules!

43 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:43:55pm

re: #38 albusteve
They shouldn't have to be!

44 yochanan  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:44:19pm

PROBLEM is that the american teaching class is almost all liberal or were taught by liberal college profs.

i can understand were some would not want to send there kids to public school we didn't we sent ours to jewish religious schools.

45 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:44:21pm

re: #15 anchors_aweigh

Actually, the USA had nothing to do with Texas's independence. Texas is the only state that was an independent nation before statehood.

Texas was flooded with American citizens...jus sayin

46 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:44:27pm

They need to create some smarter creationists.
Don McLeroy is somewhere between Neanderthal and dull moron.

47 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:44:32pm

More slacktivist on Dunbar:

She endorses a belief system that requires “any person desiring to govern have a sincere knowledge and appreciation for the Word of God in order to rightly govern.”

Dunbar -- who is, astonishingly, an attorney -- takes as her first principle of government an illegal and flagrantly unconstitutional religious test. "Unconstitutional" isn't strong enough a description of Dunbar's views on this point, actually, she's anti-constitutional. Her idea of "an emphatically Christian government" ruled by a "biblical litmus test" douses the Constitution in kerosene and sets it ablaze, then pisses on its ashes.

If Dunbar is really an attorney, then the views in her book make a good case for her being disbarred.

48 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:44:52pm

OT, and yet isn't OT:

Irish Catholics say tree stump looks like Mary
Jul. 9, 2009 10:41 AM
Associated Press

DUBLIN - Thousands of Irish Catholics have flocked this week to a County Limerick church to pray at the stump of a recently cut willow that many observers say, has the silhouette of the Virgin Mary.

The phenomenon at St. Mary's parish church in Rathkeale, population 3,000 or so, harkens back to decades when Catholic devotion and pilgrimages were the dominant feature of rural life in Ireland.

Some are tying the fervor for Rathkeale's "Holy Stump" to Ireland's stunning economic decline over the past year.

"People have been crying out for something good to happen. And this is all good for the soul," said Noel White, who has been overseeing a church project to cut down trees dangerously overhanging the neighboring school playground.

49 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:45:05pm

re: #39 FurryOldGuyJeans

Do I have to? I don' wanna! ;)

The Bear Republic

50 zombie  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:45:11pm
18 RunningBare

she calls public education a “subtly deceptive tool of perversion.”

Yeah, but is she wrong?

Very important point.

Because this is the clever trick that extremists often use: They identify a real problem, large or small, and then propose an extreme solution that's even worse than the original problem. When you protest against their solution, they point back at the original problem and say it needs fixing, one way or the other.

So, no: She isn't wrong. She's correct in saying (in her own quaint way) that the public schools have become vehicles for indoctrination, generally in neo-Marxist left-wing beliefs. But doing a 180-degree flip and making the schools into Christian madrassas with Dunbar's particular brand of religious indoctrination is not an improvement.

In this case, the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy. I don't want leftist indoctrination or Christian indoctrination in my schools. I won't stand for either, and I fight against both.

51 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:45:29pm

re: #43 pingjockey

They shouldn't have to be!

Perry needs to answer for that....right before they tar him

52 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:45:53pm

re: #45 albusteve
Isn't Texas also the only state that can divide itself into smaller states per the treaty that they were admitted to the Union under? Or is that a damn myth?

53 freetoken  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:45:57pm

The anti-modernity movement is gaining momentum, I fear, due in part to the economic conditions. Creationist movement influence into education politics is just one example.

Would Perry select Dunbar just to add to the foment, not unlike his secessionist claims? Indeed, what are Perry's actual goals?

54 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:46:04pm

re: #46 DEZes

They need to create some smarter creationists.
Don McLeroy is somewhere between Neanderthal and dull moron.

Smart Creationist....isn't that one of the definitions of oxymoron?

55 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:46:07pm

Heh. Elmer Gantry is on MGM HD.

56 Rolltideroll  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:46:33pm

re: #48 FurryOldGuyJeans
People are praying to trees.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Einstein

57 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:46:47pm

Religious voters in Texas outnumber the non-religious. That's obvious from this pandering, but here are some numbers.

Geographically, Texas tends to be heavily Protestant in the north and east and Catholic in the south and southwest. Leading Protestant denominations and their known adherents in 2000 were the Southern Baptist Convention, 3,519,459; the United Methodist Church, 1,022,342; Churches of Christ, 377,264; Assemblies of God, 228,098; the Presbyterian Church USA, 180,315; the Episcopal Church, 177,910; Independent Charismatic Churches, 159,449; the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 155,451; the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, 155,019; Independent Non-Charismatic Churches, 145,249; and the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, 140,106. Roman Catholics numbered 4,368,969 in 2000. There were an estimated 128,000 Jews, 114,999 Muslims, and about 10,777 adherents to the Baha'i faith. There were about 9.2 million people (44.5% of the population) who were not counted as members of any religious organization.[Link: www.city-data.com...]
58 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:46:52pm

re: #41 RunningBare

I agree, all those things shouldn't be part of a education curriculum. I unfortunately did my best learning outside of school. I had one teacher that taught me early on to question and search.

59 marsl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:47:07pm

You know, God just loves idiots. He makes so many of them.....

Religious fundamentalists, muslims or christians, are just a bunch of idiots.

60 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:47:08pm

re: #54 FurryOldGuyJeans

Smart Creationist....isn't that one of the definitions of oxymoron?

Actually, Yes it is.

61 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:47:09pm

re: #55 Racer X

Heh. Elmer Gantry is on MGM HD.

That is a movie I saw just recently, and was amazed how relevant it is to now.

62 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:47:16pm

re: #56 Rolltideroll
That's gonna piss off the Druids.

63 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:48:01pm
64 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:48:03pm

re: #50 zombie

Very important point.

Because this is the clever trick that extremists often use: They identify a real problem, large or small, and then propose an extreme solution that's even worse than the original problem. When you protest against their solution, they point back at the original problem and say it needs fixing, one way or the other.

So, no: She isn't wrong. She's correct in saying (in her own quaint way) that the public schools have become vehicles for indoctrination, generally in neo-Marxist left-wing beliefs. But doing a 180-degree flip and making the schools into Christian madrassas with Dunbar's particular brand of religious indoctrination is not an improvement.

In this case, the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy. I don't want leftist indoctrination or Christian indoctrination in my schools. I won't stand for either, and I fight against both.

hell, I'm a Christian, and I dont' want it in schools either. There are plenty of private christian schools I could send my children to, if I so choose.

Which is why I am Pro-voucher. Being forced to support schools with my money, rather than providing that money to the school of my choice, is very unamerican to me.

65 KingKenrod  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:48:24pm

re: #22 zombie

Rick Perry is beclowning himself yet again.

Y'know, this is a free country, where anyone can have whatever opinion they want. But it still shocks me to my core that a deranged theocratic religio-fascist like Dunbar would get any support from the general public. A few hundred fringies, sure: but the backing of the state's governor? Sheer madness!

Dunbar represents (very roughly) the Tom DeLay area south of Houston. Which means, since I vote straight GOP, I voted for this clown.

I would feel bad, but she did not even have a Democrat opponent. She did have a Libertarian, though. I'll take the GOP clown over the Lib - God only knows what they would do.

[Link: www.texasedspectator.com...]

66 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:48:48pm
67 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:49:03pm

re: #52 pingjockey

Isn't Texas also the only state that can divide itself into smaller states per the treaty that they were admitted to the Union under? Or is that a damn myth?

I've heard all that stuff but I think federal law prohibits it....KT posted something about that I think....no state constitution can superceed the big one, in that regard

68 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:49:20pm

re: #59 marsl

You know, God just loves idiots. He makes so many of them.....

Religious fundamentalists, muslims or christians, are just a bunch of idiots.

Did you really mean to limit that just to Muslims and Christians, or do any religious fundamentalists qualify? I ask, because there are others that rarely seem to be described this way.

69 Syrah  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:49:36pm

Discovery Institute freaks on one side and self-esteem socialist on the other.

It sure makes home schooling or private schools look appealing by comparison.

70 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:49:52pm

re: #56 Rolltideroll

People are praying to trees.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Einstein

From the article:

The parish priest is away on vacation. His summer replacement, the Rev. Willie Russell, is not impressed. He says locals are letting their imagination run wild and threatening to violate the commandment, "Thou shalt not worship a false God."

"It's just a tree. You don't worship a tree," Russell said.

The priest said he saw no harm in saying Hail Mary prayers at the spot - so long as the faithful don't actually find themselves praying to the stump itself. "I don't believe in idolatry. That would be the danger," he said.

71 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:50:25pm

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

Read the book. "Elmer Gantry" in print is much, much better than the film.

Oh lawdie, you want me to actually read words now? Fie! A pox upon you! ;)

72 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:50:44pm

re: #63 buzzsawmonkey

I would largely agree with you--and with the greater sorrow that for some several decades in the middle/late middle of the last century, we pretty much had a secular educational system that did not do these things.

That said, I take exception to the use of "perversion" in this context, since the nominee's use of it seems to suggest that even a secular public education system that worked well, as America's once did, would be "tool of perversion" merely because it existed and was successful.


I think a public school that was able to not push agendas of any kind, would be the ideal. The problem is, it looks good on paper, but when you add people into the mix it gets all kindsa fucked up.

73 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:51:47pm

re: #70 FurryOldGuyJeans

Someone found a tree stump yesterday that looked like Michael Jackson, too.

74 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:51:53pm

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

Read the book. "Elmer Gantry" in print is much, much better than the film.

I saw it as a kid and it just freaked me out...The acting... the storyline....To me...It made an impact on me as a kid.....
5 stars

75 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:52:36pm

re: #26 BlueCanuck

Well you both might not see eye to eye on what the exact perversion is. I am willing to bet that she would see your truth as a perversion and vice versa.

Exactly.
Which version of the Bible would she think was the "correct"?
Which version of Christianity would she be OK with as being "correct"?

I suspect NOT mine (Catholicism).
And what happens to all the non-Christians? Will they be force-fed what could very well be attempts to convert them? Not right at all.

76 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:52:49pm

re: #72 RunningBare

I think a public school that was able to not push agendas of any kind, would be the ideal. The problem is, it looks good on paper, but when you add people into the mix it gets all kindsa fucked up.

The nasty thing is that no matter what is taught someone will consider an agenda being pushed.

77 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:53:15pm
78 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:53:22pm

While I'd agree with her about some of the liberal brainwashing in the public schools, I don't want them doing creationist brainwashing either.

79 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:53:34pm

re: #57 jaunte

Religious voters in Texas outnumber the non-religious. That's obvious from this pandering, but here are some numbers.

Yes, but Perry is (or should be) an embarrassment even to them. This is the guy who spoke to a tea party in April and later talked about the possibility of Texas seceding from the Union.

""There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot.""

"He said when Texas entered the union in 1845 it was with the understanding it could pull out. However, according to the Texas State Library and Archives Commission, Texas negotiated the power to divide into four additional states at some point if it wanted to but not the right to secede."

Audio here.

80 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:53:52pm
81 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:54:23pm

re: #73 SixDegrees

Someone found a tree stump yesterday that looked like Michael Jackson, too.

It has alot in common with the fawning media.

82 Rolltideroll  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:54:24pm

re: #73 SixDegrees
Lets go worship it. Know an archaic system of beliefs we could attribute to the stump?

83 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:54:25pm

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

They shouldn't be doing this. Ash Wednesday was months ago.

You just couldn't leaf it alone, could you?

84 zombie  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:54:50pm

re: #64 RunningBare

hell, I'm a Christian, and I dont' want it in schools either. There are plenty of private christian schools I could send my children to, if I so choose.

Which is why I am Pro-voucher. Being forced to support schools with my money, rather than providing that money to the school of my choice, is very unamerican to me.

I support vouchers as well. We agree on that point. Let each parent choose their own public, charter or private school, paid for (at least in part) with a voucher for a base-level value equal to the price of a public-school education. That way, everyone gets the school they want, and moreover, the law of evolution will kick in and people who choose lame schools for their kids will through their own actions marginalize their belief systems in the long run.

85 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:55:05pm

re: #72 RunningBare

I think a public school that was able to not push agendas of any kind, would be the ideal. The problem is, it looks good on paper, but when you add people into the mix it gets all kindsa fucked up.

The whole notion of public education is an agenda, one that strives to promote the goal of achieving a well-educated populace that is able to function in our increasingly complex society. You can't really have public education at all without inherently having an agenda.

There is, however, an inordinate amount of fluff in today's curriculum, and parental choice is severely limited. These are problems that need to be remedied.

86 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:55:16pm
87 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:55:19pm

re: #67 albusteve
That's what I thought, but Texas was a soveriegn nation when the treaty was signed. Any way it was just a Texas trivia thingy. The gov is still a nut. But I have a faux gov here in WA state!

88 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:55:20pm

re: #48 FurryOldGuyJeans

OT, and yet isn't OT:

Irish Catholics say tree stump looks like Mary
Jul. 9, 2009 10:41 AM
Associated Press


I have to wonder why they think they know what Mary looked like.

89 freetoken  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:55:54pm

re: #79 iceweasel

Perry's political future is looking bright:


Lots of talk that Perry will report giant fundraising numbers

The word that is circulating puts the figure at more than $4 million raised in ten days. This is more than double what Perry reported during the same brief post-session fundraising period in 2007. The rest of the story is speculation about how Hutchison will react. With every development that is favorable to Perry, his camp raises the suggestion that she will abandon the race. Hutchison is expected to report even more, but then she had six months to do it. This would be a propitious moment for Hutchison to end the “exploratory” phase of her campaign and say that she is in the race for keeps. But her game plan has always been to shorten the campaign. The trouble with that strategy is that Perry has already lengthened it.

90 zombie  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:55:59pm

re: #78 Ward Cleaver

While I'd agree with her about some of the liberal brainwashing in the public schools, I don't want them doing creationist brainwashing either.

Thanks for saying what I wanted to say, only clearer and more concisely!

91 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:56:21pm

re: #85 SixDegrees

The whole notion of public education is an agenda, one that strives to promote the goal of achieving a well-educated populace that is able to function in our increasingly complex society. You can't really have public education at all without inherently having an agenda.

There is, however, an inordinate amount of fluff in today's curriculum, and parental choice is severely limited. These are problems that need to be remedied.

shut down the NEA...problem solved

92 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:56:28pm

re: #84 zombie

I support vouchers as well. We agree on that point. Let each parent choose their own public, charter or private school, paid for (at least in part) with a voucher for a base-level value equal to the price of a public-school education. That way, everyone gets the school they want, and moreover, the law of evolution will kick in and people who choose lame schools for their kids will through their own actions marginalize their belief systems in the long run.

Yup. And, maybe, just maybe, the schools would streamline, be competitive, and cost less than the bloated fat pigs at the taxpayer trough we have now...

93 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:56:37pm

re: #82 Rolltideroll

Lets go worship it. Know an archaic system of beliefs we could attribute to the stump?

I think we should shave it into thin slices and sell them on eBay.

94 Steve Rogers  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:03pm

”Dunbar argued the country’s founding fathers created “an emphatically Christian government” and that government should be guided by a “biblical litmus test. She endorses a belief system that requires “any person desiring to govern have a sincere knowledge and appreciation for the Word of God in order to rightly govern.”

"...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

--Article Six of the United States Constitution

95 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:16pm

I was with a co-worker recently having lunch. He bowed his head before the meal, then not 30 seconds later checked out a young lady nearby and proclaimed "wow look at that ass".

I just shook my head.

(OK, I did look though)

96 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:18pm

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Oh, it's a fantastic film. I'm just saying the book is much better.

I'll be the judge of that, the local library system has the book in an edition bound with Arrowsmith and Dosdworth.

97 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:22pm

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Oh, it's a fantastic film. I'm just saying the book is much better.

It opened my eyes as a child watching that movie that there is a big difference between a Man's heart and a man's religion...

98 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:25pm

re: #79 iceweasel

Perry is an embarrassment. Secession can't happen. I think he's grandstanding for the Huckabee demographic, trying to build a base.

99 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:25pm

re: #87 pingjockey

That's what I thought, but Texas was a soveriegn nation when the treaty was signed. Any way it was just a Texas trivia thingy. The gov is still a nut. But I have a faux gov here in WA state!

it's a cool piece of lore...I want to believe it

100 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:32pm

re: #93 SixDegrees

I think we should shave it into thin slices and sell them on eBay.

ooooh, you are so doomed for that.

101 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:47pm

re: #94 Steve Rogers
Guess they missed that part!

102 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:57:59pm

re: #88 reine.de.tout

I have to wonder why they think they know what Mary looked like.

If she ain't some skinny white red head, it ain't Mary.

/..

103 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:58:15pm

re: #95 Racer X

I was with a co-worker recently having lunch. He bowed his head before the meal, then not 30 seconds later checked out a young lady nearby and proclaimed "wow look at that ass".

I just shook my head.

(OK, I did look though)

Now you know what he was praying for. ;)

104 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:58:28pm

re: #91 albusteve

shut down the NEA...problem solved

Yes, well, good luck with that.

105 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:58:45pm
106 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:01pm

re: #89 freetoken

Perry's political future is looking bright:

Lots of talk that Perry will report giant fundraising numbers

That's terrifying.
I wonder how many of Perry's contributions are coming from out of state? That could be a big reason to appoint Dunbar: to tap into the pockets of the creationist movement more broadly.

Say what we will about them, they are funded and highly motivated -- and if anything, more active and more organised now, ever since losing Dover v PA.

107 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:01pm

re: #87 pingjockey

That's what I thought, but Texas was a soveriegn nation when the treaty was signed. Any way it was just a Texas trivia thingy. The gov is still a nut. But I have a faux gov here in WA state!

Not just you, by a long shot, and some of our fellow nitwits voted for her!

108 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:07pm

re: #86 buzzsawmonkey

Not when it's such a poplar issue, no.

wood you please stop: this is knot the thread for this sort of thing.

109 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:10pm

re: #102 FurryOldGuyJeans
She probably looked like the hottie Israeli honey on NCIS!

110 zombie  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:20pm

re: #94 Steve Rogers

”Dunbar argued the country’s founding fathers created “an emphatically Christian government” and that government should be guided by a “biblical litmus test. She endorses a belief system that requires “any person desiring to govern have a sincere knowledge and appreciation for the Word of God in order to rightly govern.”

"...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

--Article Six of the United States Constitution

EXCELLENT citation!

On those grounds alone she should be disqualified from holding office -- she advocates for unconstitutional criteria.

111 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:43pm

re: #105 buzzsawmonkey

Keywords: Virgin Birch.

I was gonna say Cherry. ;)

112 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:49pm

re: #109 pingjockey

She probably looked like the hottie Israeli honey on NCIS!

The who on the what?

Is this some television show?

113 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:49pm

re: #104 SixDegrees

Yes, well, good luck with that.

until then the problems with public schools will always exist....and continue to worsen

114 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 3:59:58pm

re: #95 Racer X

I was with a co-worker recently having lunch. He bowed his head before the meal, then not 30 seconds later checked out a young lady nearby and proclaimed "wow look at that ass".

I just shook my head.

(OK, I did look though)

you and Ear Leader both

115 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:00:12pm

re: #108 redc1c4

wood you please stop: this is knot the thread for this sort of thing.

Maybe we should branch off into something else then.

116 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:00:15pm
117 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:00:39pm

re: #107 FurryOldGuyJeans
They stole the first one fair and square! The second one I don't think they cheated. But what do I know, I'm over here on the eastside!

118 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:00:43pm

re: #94 Steve Rogers


"...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

--Article Six of the United States Constitution

Cool, I'd hate to be excluded from holding office because I happen to believe in Sky Woman, and the Creator.

119 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:00:43pm
In a book published last year, Dunbar argued the country’s founding fathers created “an emphatically Christian government” and that government should be guided by a “biblical litmus test.”

Wow! Nothing could be further from the truth. The Constitution doesn't mention God at all. This is a complete perversion of the Founders and this country. How can a person this delude get elected to any office anywhere?

120 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:01:06pm

re: #109 pingjockey

She probably looked like the hottie Israeli honey on NCIS!

who's not really Israeli....

121 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:01:47pm

re: #112 FurryOldGuyJeans
Yep. Mark Harmon, plays navy cops. It isn't insulting to yer intelligence. If it wasn't for cable I'd have nothing to watch.

122 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:01:52pm

RunningBare

hell, I'm a Christian,

I'll admit we don't get to read lines like that here very often....
You always crack me up....Welcome to the board....
/Hell.I'm a Christian... LOL who says that?
//Please no F*ck I love Jesus lines....

123 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:01:55pm

re: #120 redc1c4

who's not really Israeli....

But she Israeli HOT!

124 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:01:58pm

re: #115 capitalist piglet

Maybe we should branch off into something else then.

yes, we really should leaf this topic and move on before things while the creative sap is still flowing.

125 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:02:16pm

re: #117 pingjockey

They stole the first one fair and square! The second one I don't think they cheated. But what do I know, I'm over here on the eastside!

The second was won fair and square, and I'm on the wet side. ;)

126 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:02:17pm

re: #88 reine.de.tout

I have to wonder why they think they know what Mary looked like.

Apparently, she looked like a stump.

127 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:02:19pm

re: #105 buzzsawmonkey

Keywords: Virgin Birch.

Well, I was talking about the Michael Jackson stump, but the other one would probably bring in almost as much money. Maybe.

I remember that shortly after someone sold a piece of toast on eBay with an image of Jesus scorched onto it that someone else started selling toaster inserts that would burn an image of your choice onto your toast - college logos, a happy face, porn - whatever you wanted. He went on to make more money than the toast guy ever dreamed of.

Gotta love America.

128 zombie  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:02:41pm

re: #119 Sharmuta

Wow! Nothing could be further from the truth. The Constitution doesn't mention God at all. This is a complete perversion of the Founders and this country. How can a person this delude get elected to any office anywhere?

According to Kig Kenrod above -- she ran unopposed!

More importantly: How in the world could she have gotten the Republican nomination (which is essentially a ticket to guaranteed victory in that district)? Methinks there is something awry in the Republican Party of Texas!

129 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:02:48pm

re: #120 redc1c4
No. but she plays one on tv! You know what I mean. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, did not resemble white europeans, IMO.

130 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:02:48pm

re: #118 RunningBare

Cool, I'd hate to be excluded from holding office because I happen to believe in Sky Woman, and the Creator.

Whew. At least you're not an idiot Christian. ; )

131 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:02:55pm

re: #121 pingjockey

Yep. Mark Harmon, plays navy cops. It isn't insulting to yer intelligence. If it wasn't for cable I'd have nothing to watch.

Does this supposed hottie show up in the first season? I have the show on request through my local library system.

132 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:02:59pm

re: #119 Sharmuta

Wow! Nothing could be further from the truth. The Constitution doesn't mention God at all. This is a complete perversion of the Founders and this country. How can a person this delude get elected to any office anywhere?

by getting votes from others like themselves?

133 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:03:02pm

re: #94 Steve Rogers

”Dunbar argued the country’s founding fathers created “an emphatically Christian government” and that government should be guided by a “biblical litmus test. She endorses a belief system that requires “any person desiring to govern have a sincere knowledge and appreciation for the Word of God in order to rightly govern.”

"...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

--Article Six of the United States Constitution

Dunbar may have been confused by this:
Texas' Bill of Rights Section 4:

"RELIGIOUS TESTS: No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."


[Link: www.religioustolerance.org...]

134 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:03:04pm

re: #114 redc1c4

you and Ear Leader both

Hahahahaha! Busted!

Even Sarkozy is laughing.

135 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:03:30pm

re: #125 FurryOldGuyJeans
I think you are right. Not as many shennanigans.

136 Syrah  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:03:36pm

re: #124 redc1c4

yes, we really should leaf this topic and move on before things while the creative sap is still flowing.

I am a little stumped at your reluctance to get to the root of this matter.

137 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:04:00pm

re: #126 haakondahl

Apparently, she looked like a stump.

Oh, you mean my ex, eh? ;)

138 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:04:34pm

re: #119 Sharmuta

Wow! Nothing could be further from the truth. The Constitution doesn't mention God at all. This is a complete perversion of the Founders and this country. How can a person this delude get elected to any office anywhere?

If there's even one person who holds public office that hasn't advocated for, voted for, or implemented something unconstitutional, I think I'd drop dead from shock.

139 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:04:43pm

re: #133 jaunte
Does that mean Pagans, Athiests, and Agnostics can't hold office?

140 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:04:46pm

re: #129 pingjockey

No. but she plays one on tv! You know what I mean. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, did not resemble white europeans, IMO.

i don't believe you: i've seen all the paintings that show otherwise.....

/white smoke

141 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:05:04pm

re: #135 pingjockey

I think you are right. Not as many shennanigans.

Rossi did himself in, a lot like he was getting campaign strategy from McCain staffers.

142 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:05:17pm

re: #140 redc1c4
Heh.

143 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:05:19pm

re: #134 Racer X

Hahahahaha! Busted!

Even Sarkozy is laughing.

Obama now knows what a stimulus package looks like.

144 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:05:25pm

re: #122 HoosierHoops

RunningBare

hell, I'm a Christian,

I'll admit we don't get to read lines like that here very often....
You always crack me up....Welcome to the board....
/Hell.I'm a Christian... LOL who says that?
//Please no F*ck I love Jesus lines....

I am a Christian, and I am also irreverent and imperfect.

Hope this helps. :)

145 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:05:31pm

re: #137 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh, you mean my ex, eh? ;)

I never saw her.

146 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:05:47pm

re: #141 FurryOldGuyJeans
Yep. No fire, zip, pizzazz. Just mailed it in.

147 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:05:47pm

re: #126 haakondahl

Apparently, she looked like a stump.

OK, that made me laugh out loud.
Although I feel really guilty about it.

148 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:06:07pm

re: #144 RunningBare

I am a Christian, and I am also irreverent and imperfect.

Hope this helps. :)

I know. I was just being sarcastic.

149 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:06:14pm

re: #139 pingjockey

I think it did have that effect.

150 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:06:20pm

re: #130 capitalist piglet

Whew. At least you're not an idiot Christian. ; )


Shhhh... dont' tell anyone, but we iroquois had a holy trinity long before the catholics got hold of us... now that trinity just has different names.

But keep it on the downlow, mmmkay? ;)

151 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:06:26pm

re: #132 redc1c4

by getting votes from others like themselves?

Indeed. How silly of me to not consider the intelligent, informed electorate.

152 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:06:26pm

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

It is a fair question whether someone who home-schooled their own children should be permitted to sit on a public school board.

I don't see any reason why a home-schooler should automatically be excluded from sitting on the board -- in fact, an individual's experience as a homeschooling parent might give him or her some pretty valuable insights to contribute. On the other hand, I think it'd be a reasonable policy that the position of school board chairperson should be reserved for a board member whose children were educated in the public school system -- thus excluding home-schoolers and private-schoolers.

153 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:06:38pm

re: #136 Syrah

I am a little stumped at your reluctance to get to the root of this matter.

i just think we might be barking up the wrong tree, since we can't really see it for the forest.

154 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:06:54pm

re: #139 pingjockey

Does that mean Pagans, Athiests, and Agnostics can't hold office?

Well, agnostics can, but can be fired at will.

155 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:07:06pm

re: #133 jaunte

[Link: www.religioustolerance.org...]

I think you're probably giving Dunbar too much credit. I think she drinks in the general meme floating around for creationists and theocrats about how "america was founded as a Christian nation" "our laws reflect the ten commandments" and all that cluster of vague beliefs that is used to support everything from laws against gay marriage, to posting the ten commandments in courtrooms, to teaching creationism in schools.

There's a certain cluster of (incorrect) tropes like this that's trotted out in support of general attempts to erase the separation of church and state.

156 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:07:07pm

The headline you'll never see:

Nancy Pelosi Hates Michael Jackson!

157 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:07:09pm

re: #149 jaunte
I don't see how that would pass muster if it was challenged all the way to the supreme court.

158 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:07:13pm

re: #145 haakondahl

I never saw her.

Stump. Saw. HaHaHa! Cut him some slack!

159 jvic  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:07:31pm

re: #48 FurryOldGuyJeans

OT, and yet isn't OT:

Irish Catholics say tree stump looks like Mary
Jul. 9, 2009 10:41 AM
Associated Press

As it happens, I recently learned the word for that kind of thing: pareidolia. It's a word we could be seeing more of.

160 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:07:35pm

re: #138 RunningBare

If there's even one person who holds public office that hasn't advocated for, voted for, or implemented something unconstitutional, I think I'd drop dead from shock.

Don't you think that might be a little broad brushed?

161 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:07:48pm

re: #150 RunningBare

Shhhh... dont' tell anyone, but we iroquois had a holy trinity long before the catholics got hold of us... now that trinity just has different names.

But keep it on the downlow, mmmkay? ;)

It isn't SpaceJesus?

162 freetoken  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:08:03pm

re: #106 iceweasel

That's terrifying.

Strong suspicion that Perry has his sights set on a Presidential run sometime in the future. Whether being re-elected as governor, or taking a Senate seat, the idea is to raise his visibility on the national stage. As someone mentioned before, he is angling for the Huckabee demographic.

The Palin-Perry-Huckabee race for the religious right to gain the nomination in 2012... it's on, with Barbour the outsider but perhaps the best compromise for the religiously minded.

163 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:08:11pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I got a crazy idea. Disband the board of education and refund the money back to the taxpayers. Let the taxpayers pay for their own kids education and quit letting government agendas on either side have any influence over it.

Which is why it will never happen.

My problem with that is that you definitely will have some "sins of the fathers" issues. Why should we penalize a kid because their parents won't or can't pay? How much do we all lose, as business owners or managers, as customers and as a society, if we raise large numbers of nitwits and turn them loose on the rest of us when they hit 18?

164 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:08:26pm

re: #148 capitalist piglet

I know. I was just being sarcastic.


I was replying to someone about my "Hell, I'm a christian..." post :)

165 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:08:43pm

re: #151 Sharmuta

Indeed. How silly of me to not consider the intelligent, informed electorate.

sorry: that part is on manufacturer back order, and there is no release date.

would you like the auto-substitution instead?

166 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:08:58pm

re: #157 pingjockey

Atheist and agnostic politicians aren't very popular across the US. I think Pete Stark (CA)is the only openly atheist politician around.

167 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:09:26pm

re: #158 VegasRick

Stump. Saw. HaHaHa! Cut him some slack!

nope: that goes against the grain.....

168 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:09:33pm

re: #153 redc1c4

i just think we might be barking up the wrong tree, since we can't really see it for the forest.

Who said they Saw Elm-er Gan-tree?

169 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:10:27pm

re: #166 jaunte
Hmmm. You are probably right. OTOH, I have a problem with those pols who run around with their religion on their sleeves.

170 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:10:32pm

As Kenneth Parcell said, "I loved science class. Especially the Old Testament."

171 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:10:33pm

re: #168 haakondahl

Who said they Saw Elm-er Gan-tree?

Was it yew?

172 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:10:34pm

re: #168 haakondahl

Who said they Saw Elm-er Gan-tree?

Who are you axing?

173 Syrah  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:10:42pm

re: #153 redc1c4

i just think we might be barking up the wrong tree, since we can't really see it for the forest.

Some will always pine away for the mythical days of yore when the system was perfect and fair, but I am sure that yule not fall for that line of thinking.

174 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:10:47pm

re: #168 haakondahl

Who said they Saw Elm-er Gan-tree?

someone who went out on a limb for a pun.

175 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:11:08pm

re: #165 redc1c4

sorry: that part is on manufacturer back order, and there is no release date.

would you like the auto-substitution instead?

Just send 10,000 of the "Darwinism leads to nazism" variety. That'll work.

176 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:11:18pm

re: #107 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not just you, by a long shot, and some of our fellow nitwits voted for her!

My brother up there is slowly morphing into a moonbat.

177 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:11:50pm

re: #168 haakondahl

Who said they Saw Elm-er Gan-tree?

Shirley Jones was smokin' hot in that movie.

178 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:11:57pm

re: #160 Sharmuta

Don't you think that might be a little broad brushed?


Not really. I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary. If you can name one, I am (like Obama) all ears.

179 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:12:12pm

re: #176 Ward Cleaver

My brother up there is slowly morphing into a moonbat.

We need an intervention, stat!

180 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:12:23pm

re: #155 iceweasel

Since ours was a homeschool family, I'm on the mailing list of a group called the Texas Homeschool coalition. Contrary to their name, they're very active in lobbying any public school issue, with a view to putting the correct religious views back into the curriculum. Dunbar is deeply involved in their efforts.

181 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:12:34pm

re: #167 redc1c4

nope: that goes against the grain.....

the wind started blowing and then I sawdust........

182 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:12:38pm

re: #176 Ward Cleaver
If he is in the I-5 corridor, it's not my fault. I live in the kinda sane east side of the Cascades.

183 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:12:46pm

re: #166 jaunte

Atheist and agnostic politicians aren't very popular across the US. I think Pete Stark (CA)is the only openly atheist politician around.

Not to mention a raving lunatic.

184 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:12:52pm

re: #178 RunningBare

Not really. I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary. If you can name one, I am (like Obama) all ears.

Maybe someone who just got there in January?

What do I win?

185 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:12:55pm

re: #15 anchors_aweigh

Actually, the USA had nothing to do with Texas's independence. Texas is the only state that was an independent nation before statehood.

Just curious, where are you from?

Vermont and California can claim that as well, actually.

186 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:13:02pm

re: #173 Syrah

Some will always pine away for the mythical days of yore when the system was perfect and fair, but I am sure that yule not fall for that line of thinking.

that system is now just a copse..... and should be laid to rest in a proper grove.

187 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:13:27pm

re: #176 Ward Cleaver

My brother up there is slowly morphing into a moonbat.

it's a disease....unless you are raised with a strong principle of individualism, you are suceptable...the collective is big juju

188 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:13:46pm

re: #175 Sharmuta

Just send 10,000 of the "Darwinism leads to nazism" variety. That'll work.

no problem: i take it you got the memo that morons are the approved auto-sub.

189 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:13:47pm

re: #182 pingjockey

If he is in the I-5 corridor, it's not my fault. I live in the kinda sane east side of the Cascades.

He's out on Whidbey.

190 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:14:34pm

re: #189 Ward Cleaver

He's out on Whidbey.

Oh my. Have you been out to visit? It's all Birkenstocks, Cheetos, and ass. (As RunningBare would say.)

191 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:14:43pm

re: #184 capitalist piglet

Maybe someone who just got there in January?

What do I win?


My eternal friendship, gratitude, and whatever I currrently have in my pockets... (which consists of 47 cents in loose change, a banana, a bus transfer, and some lint)

192 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:14:59pm

re: #162 freetoken

Strong suspicion that Perry has his sights set on a Presidential run sometime in the future. Whether being re-elected as governor, or taking a Senate seat, the idea is to raise his visibility on the national stage. As someone mentioned before, he is angling for the Huckabee demographic.

The Palin-Perry-Huckabee race for the religious right to gain the nomination in 2012... it's on, with Barbour the outsider but perhaps the best compromise for the religiously minded.

I was just wondering about that -- whether he was angling for a POTUS run. Then I thought, no way, this guy is a lunatic.
Then I remembered Pat Buchanan.

Interesting-- I had seen a few analyses that suggested the culture wars in the US are over now, but on the contrary, I think they might be heating up for a (hopefully) last battle. Someone (Matt Yglesias, maybe?) wrote about that in the last couple of days, predicting we'd see more overt pandering to the religious right, not less, in 2012.

I don't think that's a good move for the US or for conservatives.

193 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:15:07pm

re: #190 capitalist piglet

Oh my. Have you been out to visit? It's all Birkenstocks, Cheetos, and ass. (As RunningBare would say.)

even the navy base?

194 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:15:34pm

re: #191 RunningBare

My eternal friendship, gratitude, and whatever I currrently have in my pockets... (which consists of 47 cents in loose change, a banana, a bus transfer, and some lint)

So it really was a banana in your pants. ;)

195 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:15:48pm

re: #189 Ward Cleaver
Well, there should be enough retired navy types out there to slow the process.
Apparently even the dead in Chicago can't sleep in peace. They were moving people after they were buried and reselling the plots!

196 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:02pm

re: #190 capitalist piglet

Oh my. Have you been out to visit? It's all Birkenstocks, Cheetos, and ass. (As RunningBare would say.)

I've heard (from other folks) that the northern part,where the NAS is, is red, while the southern half is blue.

197 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:20pm

re: #190 capitalist piglet
Not all. A whole lot of retired navy out there.

198 Kragar  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:23pm

re: #193 redc1c4

even the navy base?

Where do you think they get all that extra ass?

/USMC pops smoke

199 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:26pm

re: #183 Ward Cleaver

It is interesting that only a raving lunatic politician from California can be elected as an atheist, though.

200 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:30pm

re: #193 redc1c4

even the navy base?

I used to live at a campground on Whidbey while my now-ex wife was a squid up there. My firstborn was borned at the navy hospital. Even parts of Oak Harbor were full of hippies, and smelled like cheetos, patchouli, and ass.

201 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:31pm

re: #195 pingjockey

Well, there should be enough retired navy types out there to slow the process.
Apparently even the dead in Chicago can't sleep in peace. They were moving people after they were buried and reselling the plots!

remind me to never try Chicago style BBQ.....

202 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:33pm

re: #193 redc1c4

even the navy base?

There's an exception to every rule. I was thinking more like south Whidbey...where the artists congregate.

203 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:37pm

re: #163 ~Fianna

My problem with that is that you definitely will have some "sins of the fathers" issues. Why should we penalize a kid because their parents won't or can't pay? How much do we all lose, as business owners or managers, as customers and as a society, if we raise large numbers of nitwits and turn them loose on the rest of us when they hit 18?

The world will always need burger flippers and valet parking attendents. Why should the taxpayers foot the bill (to the tune of about 6K per kid per year) for 4 years for some kid who
A) doesn't want to be in school
B) while there, disrupts those that DO want to be in school

I'm talking High School level, not elementary as long as the elementary curricuulum is reading, writing and 'rithmatic, not how to put a condom on a banana.
Secondary ed could (shoudl) be privately funded (most of my property tax goes to public schools). I send my 15 year old to a private school. Why can't I have my tax money to spend there?

204 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:16:44pm

re: #196 Ward Cleaver
That's pretty close to right.

205 Syrah  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:17:03pm

re: #191 RunningBare

My eternal friendship, gratitude, and whatever I currrently have in my pockets... (which consists of 47 cents in loose change, a banana, a bus transfer, and some lint)

What has it got in its pockets, my precious?

206 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:17:04pm

re: #198 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where do you think they get all that extra ass?

/USMC pops smoke

the un-endangered dependent whales?

207 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:17:08pm

Hey Charles,

...and for the 'Bubble Double' we've got Pon Raul - our #&*$&$ congresscritter.

best regards,

CrazyinTx. ;)

208 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:17:25pm

re: #198 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Fucking Jarhead! :)

209 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:17:37pm
210 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:17:58pm

re: #202 capitalist piglet

There's an exception to every rule. I was thinking more like south Whidbey...where the artists congregate.


Yeah. When you get off the ferry in Clinton... BOOM! The Smell of Ass.

211 harpsicon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:18:13pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I got a crazy idea. Disband the board of education and refund the money back to the taxpayers. Let the taxpayers pay for their own kids education and quit letting government agendas on either side have any influence over it.

Which is why it will never happen.

This is of course the classic libertarian position - public education is a relatively recent phenomenon, and certainly wasn't in the picture at the founding of the republic. It seems in fact to have had something to do with making sure Catholic immigrants assimilated in the 19th century.

It is totally true that making education non-compulsary, and relieving us of the tax burden, would solve all these issues. Let Creationists educate their children however they please, and let them then compete in the modern world. Should end the problem rather quickly, methinks!

Public education has been a disaster in the big cities for about half a century, and it is awfully expensive. The teachers are very often incompetent, which doesn't prevent them from getting tenure and procuring what the Chinese refer to as the "iron rice bowl" - how many could make anything comparable in the public sector! The teacher qualifying exam, at least around here, is multiple choice and you can take it over and over again, like the Civil Service exam.

Our kids deserve better, and the nervous middle and upper middle class parents could replicate their current good public schools for way less that they pay in property taxes. And they would have control over them, which they don't in fact have now. As for poor kids, they could hardly be worse served, and with all the tax monies freed up, do-gooders would surely provide better services quickly enough.

Why not!

212 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:18:18pm

re: #195 pingjockey

Well, there should be enough retired navy types out there to slow the process.
Apparently even the dead in Chicago can't sleep in peace. They were moving people after they were buried and reselling the plots!

Well, they did vote!

213 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:18:25pm

re: #180 jaunte

Since ours was a homeschool family, I'm on the mailing list of a group called the Texas Homeschool coalition. Contrary to their name, they're very active in lobbying any public school issue, with a view to putting the correct religious views back into the curriculum. Dunbar is deeply involved in their efforts.

That's worrying, and suggestive of a claim made before about the religious right: they aren't content to be free to practice their religion, but are actively working to insinuate it into the public sphere and impose it on others.

214 jvic  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:18:28pm

re: #192 iceweasel

I was just wondering about that -- whether he was angling for a POTUS run. Then I thought, no way, this guy is a lunatic.
Then I remembered Pat Buchanan.

If Dan Quayle could run for President, Rick Perry can run for President. I don't know how far he'll get, but if he runs as a sitting governor he'll get farther than Quayle did.

Later.

215 Kragar  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:18:36pm

re: #208 pingjockey

Fucking Jarhead! :)

But for jarheads, thats a verb and not an adjective

216 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:18:48pm

re: #212 VegasRick
It's the Chicago way!

217 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:18:57pm

re: #210 RunningBare

Yeah. When you get off the ferry in Clinton... BOOM! The Smell of Ass.

You'd think with all the rain up there that wouldn't be so much a problem.

218 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:19:04pm

re: #215 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Heh.

219 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:19:06pm

re: #196 Ward Cleaver

I've heard (from other folks) that the northern part,where the NAS is, is red, while the southern half is blue.

That could be. I used to live with a guitar player whose parents had a large piece of land on the south end. I'm sure it hasn't grown conservative since the end of that relationship.

220 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:19:13pm

re: #198 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where do you think they get all that extra ass?

/USMC pops smoke


You know what sound shit makes when it goes through a fan?

MARRRRIIINNNNE!

221 harpsicon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:19:53pm

re: #163 ~Fianna

My problem with that is that you definitely will have some "sins of the fathers" issues. Why should we penalize a kid because their parents won't or can't pay? How much do we all lose, as business owners or managers, as customers and as a society, if we raise large numbers of nitwits and turn them loose on the rest of us when they hit 18?

We already do! (What rock have you been hiding under?)

222 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:20:27pm

re: #213 iceweasel

That's worrying, and suggestive of a claim made before about the religious right: they aren't content to be free to practice their religion, but are actively working to insinuate it into the public sphere and impose it on others.

Look how well that worked for the Church of England.
/

223 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:20:40pm

re: #7 Nevergiveup

SEn. Burris ( D ) to announce tomorrow he will NOT run for re-election on 2010

Gee I wonder why....

224 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:20:55pm

re: #178 RunningBare

Not really. I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary. If you can name one, I am (like Obama) all ears.

That's weak.

225 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:21:12pm

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

True enough.

However, the fact that someone --has obvious, vocal problems with the very concept of that system itself, are valid issues to raise when considering whether that person's fitness to serve.


Uhhh oh. Then if that is the standard, there's a whole shit pot full of senators, congresscritters, and a president that need to resign from office like right now.

226 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:21:18pm

re: #220 RunningBare

You know what sound shit makes when it goes through a fan?

MARRRRIIINNNNE!

Pssssst. Maybe you should tell people your military background before telling jokes about the Marines.

227 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:21:28pm

re: #133 jaunte

Dunbar may have been confused by this:
Texas' Bill of Rights Section 4:

"RELIGIOUS TESTS: No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

Heh. I think this particular passage from the Texas state constitution has now been formally voided, but it still takes the breath away as an example of chutzpah.

(In that the opening language is lifted directly from the U.S. Constitution, but the clause tacked on at the end brazenly violates the language and sentiment of the original -- the Texas version essentially says "No test ever -- and by 'no test,' we mean 'except for this one.'")

228 freetoken  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:21:53pm

re: #192 iceweasel

Then I thought, no way, this guy is a lunatic.

Let's make a short list of the leading lights of the GOP, as seen from today, who have been touted as being possible 2012 candidates:

Sanford
Palin ☢
Jindal ☢
J. Bush ♵
Romney ♻
Huckabee
Perry
Barbour

Quite the selection there, dear GOP - keep it up.

229 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:23:15pm

re: #224 Sharmuta

That's weak.

Well, I notice you didn't name a current politician who has passed constitutional muster with every vote, bill, or proposal they've been a part of.

That's weak.

230 Kragar  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:23:23pm

re: #228 freetoken

Let's make a short list of the leading lights of the GOP, as seen from today, who have been touted as being possible 2012 candidates:

Sanford
Palin ☢
Jindal ☢
J. Bush ♵
Romney ♻
Huckabee
Perry
Barbour

Quite the selection there, dear GOP - keep it up.

Only one choice makes sense, but he's unelectable

231 DEZes  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:23:26pm

Well Lizards, I am gonna go.
Thanks for keeping me somewhat sane.

232 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:23:32pm

re: #228 freetoken

Let's make a short list of the leading lights of the GOP, as seen from today, who have been touted as being possible 2012 candidates:

Sanford
Palin ☢
Jindal ☢
J. Bush ♵
Romney ♻
Huckabee
Perry
Barbour

Quite the selection there, dear GOP - keep it up.

nobody here is happy with the GOP but I'd rather have any one on this list rather than who we have

233 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:23:57pm

re: #180 jaunte

Since ours was a homeschool family, I'm on the mailing list of a group called the Texas Homeschool coalition. Contrary to their name, they're very active in lobbying any public school issue, with a view to putting the correct religious views back into the curriculum. Dunbar is deeply involved in their efforts.

Why is it that these people have no problem identifying themselves with the Republican party and completely miss the point? Putting religious views into the public school curriculum is flat out wrong; whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. I don't get why this is an issue. Should be shot down pronto by any judiciary. It is absolutely UN-Constitutional.

There. I've said my piece.

234 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:24:09pm

re: #57 jaunte

I'd say the Muslims are slightly outnumbered there in TX. No wonder they might go apeshit.

235 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:24:44pm

re: #226 capitalist piglet

Pssssst. Maybe you should tell people your military background before telling jokes about the Marines.

Why? You think some groundpounders or the bus drivers would dare make marine jokes? Nah, that takes a sailor. ;)

236 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:24:44pm

well - I think public school is very, very flawed and deceptive, too. I would guess for different reasons, though...

So, good evening, everyone!

237 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:25:20pm

re: #203 sattv4u2

The world will always need burger flippers and valet parking attendents. Why should the taxpayers foot the bill (to the tune of about 6K per kid per year) for 4 years for some kid who
A) doesn't want to be in school
B) while there, disrupts those that DO want to be in school

I'm talking High School level, not elementary as long as the elementary curricuulum is reading, writing and 'rithmatic, not how to put a condom on a banana.
Secondary ed could (shoudl) be privately funded (most of my property tax goes to public schools). I send my 15 year old to a private school. Why can't I have my tax money to spend there?

That I can agree with. I would LOVE to see more tracking of kids in the education system in the US. Not everyone in the world wants to go to college, except now it's a bizarre requirement for just about every job posting from receptionist on up. We'd save money and have happier and more productive people faster if we didn't try and educate everyone the same way. If someone wants to or has a talent for higher education, it should be available... but if someone would be a great electrician, send them to training rather than making them read Jane Eyre.

238 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:25:27pm

re: #232 albusteve

nobody here is happy with the GOP but I'd rather have any one on this list rather than who we have

Amen brother!

(shoot - can I say that on this thread?)

239 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:26:05pm

re: #228 freetoken
Yup. It'll be like the donks nominating Kerry.

240 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:26:07pm

re: #213 iceweasel

That's worrying, and suggestive of a claim made before about the religious right: they aren't content to be free to practice their religion, but are actively working to insinuate it into the public sphere and impose it on others.

As freetoken tipped me off to quite a while back- these people don't have a grasp on civics- on the separation of powers. There are the rights the Federal government has, the state governments have, and the People's rights. It's imperative the rule of law be maintained, as well as these separations. Because as soon as these lines get blurred- government takes whatever power it can. That's its nature. Or if the rule of law isn't maintained, the liberties the People will take will trend towards anarchy. Balance and boundaries must be maintained- these people with to smear these lines. They have no idea what they're doing. And these people who would blur these lines come from the left and the right.

241 callahan23  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:26:28pm

re: #231 DEZes

Well Lizards, I am gonna go.
Thanks for keeping me somewhat sane.

(DEZes), be good.
;-)

242 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:26:46pm

re: #233 Russkilitlover

Here's a list of questions they suggest voters ask potential candidates:

Sample Questions for Candidates
What publications do you read on a regular basis to stay current on issues?
What books have you read in the past year, and how have they impacted your perspective?
What current leaders do you respect most and why?
How do you define education?
Within the past 10 years, describe an occasion in either your private or public life when you had to make an unpopular decision that cost you financially, politically or socially?
How would you describe your worldview?
How do you view man? What do you believe about the nature of man?
Would you mind if I ask you a science/biology question… When do you believe life begins?
May I ask you a personal history question…? When do you believe your life began?
[Link: www.thsc.org...]

243 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:26:56pm

re: #235 RunningBare

Why? You think some groundpounders or the bus drivers would dare make marine jokes? Nah, that takes a sailor. ;)

Yeah, the intelligence level is lower. ;)

/former groundpounder

244 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:27:16pm

re: #173 Syrah

Some will always pine away for the mythical days of yore when the system was perfect and fair, but I am sure that yule not fall for that line of thinking.

Between Acorn and the Birchers, re: #217 LGoPs

You'd think with all the rain up there that wouldn't be so much a problem.

Musty old wet-dog smelling ass.

245 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:27:25pm

re: #238 Racer X

Amen brother!

(shoot - can I say that on this thread?)

EXTREMIST!

246 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:27:31pm

re: #163 ~Fianna

My problem with that is that you definitely will have some "sins of the fathers" issues. Why should we penalize a kid because their parents won't or can't pay? How much do we all lose, as business owners or managers, as customers and as a society, if we raise large numbers of nitwits and turn them loose on the rest of us when they hit 18?

Exactly. We have to have a public education option, or we risk solidifying the creation of a permanent underclass: kids who never get any education and literally never have any opportunity to do so.

God knows the public education system we have now needs major overhaul, but we can't eliminate it entirely (although i do favour major overhaul esp in high school, and the providing of vocational/technical training then.)

247 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:27:39pm

re: #229 RunningBare

No- you're pushing a logical fallacy- that's weak. You claim they all do it, so give me a link.

248 Bloodnok  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:27:59pm

re: #229 RunningBare

Well, I notice you didn't name a current politician who has passed constitutional muster with every vote, bill, or proposal they've been a part of.

That's weak.

The claim was yours to prove. If it was just a snarky "everyone hates Congress" joke, fine, but don't expect people to prove your points for you.

249 ladycatnip  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:28:04pm

#232 albusteve

nobody here is happy with the GOP but I'd rather have any one on this list rather than who we have

A thousand updings if I could.

250 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:28:08pm

re: #237 ~Fianna

While I agree there is nothing to be ashamed of in a great technical education, and not everyone should go to College, I'd dispute making either of these options available on the public dime.

251 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:29:16pm

re: #228 freetoken

Let's make a short list of the leading lights of the GOP, as seen from today, who have been touted as being possible 2012 candidates:

Sanford
Palin ☢
Jindal ☢
J. Bush ♵
Romney ♻
Huckabee
Perry
Barbour

Quite the selection there, dear GOP - keep it up.

7 months after Dole lost the 1996 election, tell me ONE person who would have told you Bush would be the Repub nominee for 2000

7 months after Gore lost the 2000 election, tell me ONE person who would have told you Kerry would be the dem nominee for 2004

7 months after Kerry lost the 2004 election, tell me ONE person who would have told you Obama would be the Dem nominee for 2008

It is WAY too early to even worry about who the Repubs can/ will run for 2012

252 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:29:34pm

re: #242 jaunte

Here's a list of questions they suggest voters ask potential candidates:

Interesting. I can answer all of these questions without one single religious reference. Although they are clearly fishing.

253 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:29:52pm

re: #233 Russkilitlover

Why is it that these people have no problem identifying themselves with the Republican party and completely miss the point? Putting religious views into the public school curriculum is flat out wrong; whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. I don't get why this is an issue. Should be shot down pronto by any judiciary. It is absolutely UN-Constitutional.

There. I've said my piece.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that these people are not Republicans. Well, it's either them or us, and I say it's them.

254 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:29:56pm

A True Blonde

Lucky.

255 freetoken  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:29:58pm

re: #237 ~Fianna

We'd save money and have happier and more productive people faster if we didn't try and educate everyone the same way.

Agree.

However, there is implied in American culture that one's status level depends upon one's formal educational accomplishments, not what one does in the day to day world.

It is so human to look down upon others... we really are great apes with hierarchy within our tribe.

256 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:30:04pm

Nice, sharmuta. I'll let you have the last word on it, but the bottom line is simply this:

Once a politician gets into office, it almost always becomes about power, re-election, and other stuff - rarely, if ever, does the thought "Hey, this might not be constitutional, maybe I should hold off on this..." ever cross their mind. If it will give them more power, influence, a better office, or re-election, they'll do it.

I actually can't believe we're arguing over that.

257 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:30:23pm

re: #235 RunningBare

Why? You think some groundpounders or the bus drivers would dare make marine jokes? Nah, that takes a sailor. ;)

YARRR!

258 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:30:47pm

re: #163 ~Fianna

My problem with that is that you definitely will have some "sins of the fathers" issues. Why should we penalize a kid because their parents won't or can't pay? How much do we all lose, as business owners or managers, as customers and as a society, if we raise large numbers of nitwits and turn them loose on the rest of us when they hit 18?

We started paying that bill last November 4th.

259 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:30:48pm

re: #252 Russkilitlover

They do a very good job of encouraging political involvement and good citizenship, but with a specific agenda in mind.

260 ladycatnip  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:30:56pm

Drudge is calling this pic The Second Stimulus - hysterical - glad it was caught on camera. Mrs. O is not gonna like this.

261 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:31:08pm

re: #253 haakondahl

In fact, I would go so far as to say that these people are not Republicans. Well, it's either them or us, and I say it's them.

Uh-oh. Beware the "No true Republican" stuffola.

262 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:31:09pm

re: #247 Sharmuta

No- you're pushing a logical fallacy- that's weak. You claim they all do it, so give me a link.

Really? All one has to do is look at the laws that get passed in DC.

263 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:31:39pm

re: #221 harpsicon

We already do! (What rock have you been hiding under?)

Point. But it would be worse if we didn't compel people to at least get the basics down.

I suppose that the other question is what do we do with all these kids who aren't in school? Let them just hang around, put them to work?

I suppose that a broader question that this relates to is: do we have too broad a concept of childhood at this point? People historically took their place in adult society much younger than we do here. For example, marriage, motherhood and responsibility for a household by 15 or 16 was the norm less than 100 years ago. Boys were working full-time by 13 or 14, as well, younger if their family was poor.

We still let kids that young work some jobs (agricultural, mainly, although you can get a work permit for a paper route and kids babysit and other jobs of that nature around 12 or 13.) But generally we don't let teenagers have full-time jobs. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

I personally think it's some of both. Going back to the days of child labor in mines and factories like the Victorians had is not a good idea... but maybe we're not expecting people to act like responsible people until they've already developed the habit of being irresponsible, and that's not such a good idea either.

264 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:31:51pm

the agenda of the NEA is not education and never was....it is a bloated union that feeds on tax dollars to indoctrinate young people...it will never change....they fight home schooling and vouchers like a cornered animal...they do not have the best interests of the public in mind...they weaken the US...they are poison

265 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:33:00pm

re: #262 RunningBare

Really? All one has to do is look at the laws that get passed in DC.

Oh, bullshit.

266 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:33:20pm

re: #261 Russkilitlover

Uh-oh. Beware the "No true Republican" stuffola.

Roger. I thought of that. I'm not trying to excuse anything--rather to exclude.Who gets to define the party? I (ahem) humbly submit myself.

267 ladycatnip  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:33:30pm

#163 Fianna

...if we raise large numbers of nitwits and turn them loose on the rest of us when they hit 18?

Our public education system has been doing this for years.

268 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:34:24pm

re: #120 redc1c4

re: #260 ladycatnip

Looks like French dude gave him the "eyes right" tip.

269 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:34:58pm

re: #267 ladycatnip

#163 Fianna


Our public education system has been doing this for years.

see #203

270 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:35:02pm
271 Kragar  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:35:50pm

re: #270 buzzsawmonkey

One can only wonder whether this widespread malaise is due to the fact that Civics, as a class, has steadily been disappearing from the public school curriculum for the last 40 years.

Why should kids be learning about cars in school?

/

272 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:35:52pm

re: #266 haakondahl

Roger. I thought of that. I'm not trying to excuse anything--rather to exclude.Who gets to define the party? I (ahem) humbly submit myself.

I have no problem with someone holding personal creationist views. That's their deal, there are a lot of religious views from a variety of religions that I would never personally adopt (gotta have my bacon for one thing!). But this insertion of religious views into public schools is incomprehensible to me.

273 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:35:57pm

re: #268 avanti

re: #260 ladycatnip

Looks like French dude gave him the "eyes right" tip.

That's what it looked like to me, too.

274 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:35:57pm

re: #260 ladycatnip

Drudge is calling this pic The Second Stimulus - hysterical - glad it was caught on camera. Mrs. O is not gonna like this.

Yep, I can see Michelle bitch-slappin' him around tonight....

275 freetoken  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:36:04pm

re: #251 sattv4u2

Which is why I used the term "as seen from today". Yes, the future may hold someone that has yet to be revealed.

However, notice that the process and groups involved don't change that much. The corralling of the religious right around GWB was a well planned operation, and that basic formula is still operating today... which is why the "as seen from today" list looks very much like candidates who would depend upon the same voters as GWB depended.

276 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:36:19pm

Any excuse to get naked, it seems:

Skinny-dippers to go for world record
by Betty Reid - Jul. 9, 2009 07:37 AM
The Arizona Republic

Two clubs in Maricopa County will host skinny-dipping swimmers trying for a world record Saturday.

The nude swimming events are scheduled for noon in New River and at another undisclosed location in the Valley. New River's Shangri La Ranch and Arizona Wildflowers are part of a nationwide attempt to be listed in Guinness World Records.

277 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:36:39pm
278 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:36:43pm

Now…get me a beer!

The tables are turned.

279 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:36:55pm

re: #274 Macker

Yep, I can see Michelle bitch-slappin' him around tonight....

The hotel they are staying in needs to do a lamp inventory before tonight....

280 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:37:11pm

re: #270 buzzsawmonkey

Remember that civics test that we had here a while ago? I'd bet people over 50 do better on that test than people under 50. I missed two. My 17 year old, still in high school at the time missed half!

281 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:37:34pm

We all have a little inner-authoritarian in us. Everyone thinks the world would be better if it was run their way. The American system of government was designed to reign in those little authoritarians as best as possible while still allowing for the maximum level of personal liberty. And I think the Founders did about as well as man can conceive. It was asked of Franklin after the Constitutional Convention what it was they had given us.

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

Somedays- I'm not so sure we can. :(

282 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:37:40pm

re: #279 FurryOldGuyJeans

The hotel they are staying in needs to do a lamp inventory before tonight....

Wait I thought that's what Shrillary threw around at Bill!

283 Kragar  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:37:47pm

re: #274 Macker

Yep, I can see Michelle bitch-slappin' him around tonight....

Obama gets home, all his stuff is tossed out on the White House lawn. He's stuck in on the couch in Biden's den for a week.

284 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:04pm

re: #282 Macker

Wait I thought that's what Shrillary threw around at Bill!

BINGO! ;)

285 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:13pm

re: #275 freetoken

Which is why I used the term "as seen from today". Yes, the future may hold someone that has yet to be revealed.

However, notice that the process and groups involved don't change that much. The corralling of the religious right around GWB was a well planned operation, and that basic formula is still operating today... which is why the "as seen from today" list looks very much like candidates who would depend upon the same voters as GWB depended.


Doubtful. McCain was the nominee WITHOUT those same "groups". Prior to Bush, so was Dole and so was Bush's dad who did NOT have the backing of the religious right until after he was nominated

286 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:14pm

re: #272 Russkilitlover

I have no problem with someone holding personal creationist views. That's their deal, there are a lot of religious views from a variety of religions that I would never personally adopt (gotta have my bacon for one thing!). But this insertion of religious views into public schools is incomprehensible to me.

I should think that both parties are entitled to rule out those with flatly un-Constitutional views. Now there's a litmus test with some legs on it.

287 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:21pm

re: #270 buzzsawmonkey

One can only wonder whether this widespread malaise is due to the fact that Civics, as a class, has steadily been disappearing from the public school curriculum for the last 40 years.

I think that's exactly the problem.

288 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:29pm

re: #274 Macker

Yep, I can see Michelle bitch-slappin' him around tonight....

"It does not matter where you get your appetite, as long as you dine at home."

289 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:34pm

re: #250 ArmyWife

While I agree there is nothing to be ashamed of in a great technical education, and not everyone should go to College, I'd dispute making either of these options available on the public dime.

I see it as an investment, I guess. I'd rather pay to educate someone than pay to feed them in jail and those are generally the options.

I understand people's frustration with it, though. I don't have kids and that's very, very unlikely to change, and a large amount of my tax dollars go to paying for things for the kids.

I guess what's most important to me is that we continue to provide Americans with equality of opportunity (VERY different from guaranteeing equality of outcome). Education, especially now, is crucial to people maintaining and increasing their standard of living. If someone screws that up on their own as an adult, they need to suffer the consequences, but I'm uncomfortable dooming a kid who has no choice as to what situation their born into.

290 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:38pm

re: #275 freetoken

Which is why I used the term "as seen from today". Yes, the future may hold someone that has yet to be revealed.

However, notice that the process and groups involved don't change that much. The corralling of the religious right around GWB was a well planned operation, and that basic formula is still operating today... which is why the "as seen from today" list looks very much like candidates who would depend upon the same voters as GWB depended.

It is also worth noting that sometimes the buzz about a candidate for 4 years on does begin right after the election. Obama started being talked as a possibility in 2008 right after he gave the DNC speech in 2004.

291 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:41pm

re: #270 buzzsawmonkey

One can only wonder whether this widespread malaise is due to the fact that Civics, as a class, has steadily been disappearing from the public school curriculum for the last 40 years.

I think absolutely so. It was a boring class but essential in teaching the fundamentals of our form of governance.
All you need today is to ask the average person on the street which branch of government determines spending for example and you won't have to scratch your head at the recent election results.

292 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:38:57pm

re: #280 pingjockey

Remember that civics test that we had here a while ago? I'd bet people over 50 do better on that test than people under 50. I missed two. My 17 year old, still in high school at the time missed half!

?

293 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:40:05pm

re: #251 sattv4u2

7 months after Dole lost the 1996 election, tell me ONE person who would have told you Bush would be the Repub nominee for 2000

7 months after Gore lost the 2000 election, tell me ONE person who would have told you Kerry would be the dem nominee for 2004

7 months after Kerry lost the 2004 election, tell me ONE person who would have told you Obama would be the Dem nominee for 2008

It is WAY too early to even worry about who the Repubs can/ will run for 2012

I can't quite win on the 2004 question, but I can say that I knew he'd be the one to give Hillary a run for the nomination after I saw his convention speech in 2004.

294 Syrah  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:40:08pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

We all have a little inner-authoritarian in us. Everyone thinks the world would be better if it was run their way. The American system of government was designed to reign in those little authoritarians as best as possible while still allowing for the maximum level of personal liberty. And I think the Founders did about as well as man can conceive. It was asked of Franklin after the Constitutional Convention what it was they had given us.

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

Somedays- I'm not so sure we can. :(

It has been a blessing that we have been able to keep it as long as we have.

295 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:40:20pm

re: #291 LGoPs

I think absolutely so. It was a boring class but essential in teaching the fundamentals of our form of governance.
All you need today is to ask the average person on the street which branch of government determines spending for example and you won't have to scratch your head at the recent election results.

our system of education was our greatest treasure...we tossed it all away

296 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:40:37pm

re: #292 haakondahl
We had a link to a civics test, a while ago. The stats were shocking to say the least. IIRC, college kids scored in the 60% range and the nat'l average was below 50%!

297 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:40:53pm

re: #288 avanti

"It does not matter where you get your appetite, as long as you dine at home."

Typical drooling male comment, I don't agree.

298 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:41:08pm

re: #290 iceweasel

It is also worth noting that sometimes the buzz about a candidate for 4 years on does begin right after the election. Obama started being talked as a possibility in 2008 right after he gave the DNC speech in 2004.

as was Clinton after his speech at the convention prior to the one he was nominated at. But NIETHER of them (Obama nor Clinton) was considered anywhere near a front runner for years later (see my 203)

299 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:41:22pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

We all have a little inner-authoritarian in us. Everyone thinks the world would be better if it was run their way. The American system of government was designed to reign in those little authoritarians as best as possible while still allowing for the maximum level of personal liberty. And I think the Founders did about as well as man can conceive. It was asked of Franklin after the Constitutional Convention what it was they had given us.

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

Somedays- I'm not so sure we can. :(

I think we stand at the precipice and are on the verge of losing it.

300 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:41:48pm

re: #296 pingjockey

We had a link to a civics test, a while ago. The stats were shocking to say the least. IIRC, college kids scored in the 60% range and the nat'l average was below 50%!

Unfortunately a Civics test this time around would be geared toward The One™.

301 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:41:56pm

re: #289 ~Fianna

I see it as an investment, I guess. I'd rather pay to educate someone than pay to feed them in jail and those are generally the options.

Bullshit! I have worked plenty of jobs with plenty of people who dropped out of high school or just squeaked past, or even did very well. I don't recall any of them who wound up in jail.
Do you know anybody without a college degree?

302 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:42:28pm

re: #297 Walter L. Newton

Typical drooling male comment, I don't agree.

I'm crushed.

303 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:42:29pm

re: #296 pingjockey

We had a link to a civics test, a while ago. The stats were shocking to say the least. IIRC, college kids scored in the 60% range and the nat'l average was below 50%!

Here are a coupleof those quizzes.

304 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:43:24pm

re: #302 avanti

I'm crushed.

yes you are....

305 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:43:33pm

re: #302 avanti

I'm crushed.

No your not.

306 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:43:39pm

re: #270 buzzsawmonkey

One can only wonder whether this widespread malaise is due to the fact that Civics, as a class, has steadily been disappearing from the public school curriculum for the last 40 years.

That or watching so many on the Right get completely destroyed by the FMSM over outright lies and false allegations.

*See Sarah Palin.

307 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:43:49pm

re: #280 pingjockey

Remember that civics test that we had here a while ago? I'd bet people over 50 do better on that test than people under 50. I missed two. My 17 year old, still in high school at the time missed half!

And if we were all AZ HS students, we'd fail.

The Vast Majority of Arizona High School Students Couldn't Pass a Citizenship Test

If they weren't born here, 96.5 percent of Arizona high school students would not qualify to be United States citizens, according to a study released last week by the Goldwater Institute.

The "Freedom From Responsibility" survey shows that only 3.5 percent of Arizona high school students would pass a basic citizenship test - in contrast to more than 92 percent of immigrants, who pass the test on the first try.

Only 26.5 percent of the students polled knew George Washington was the first president. Even fewer could identify the two houses of Congress.


Fewer than 10 percent of the students surveyed knew how many justices sit on the United States Supreme Court. Just 58.8 percent knew which ocean is on the country's east coast.
snip
Supposedly, Arizona's high school history curriculum is one of the strictest in the country. Clearly, it's not being taught.

308 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:43:50pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

you mean it wouldn't be better if we did things my way? ;)

309 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:43:53pm
310 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:44:12pm

[Link: www.americancivicliteracy.org...]
This is the one, IIRC.
Thanks reine!

311 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:44:14pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

We all have a little inner-authoritarian in us. Everyone thinks the world would be better if it was run their way. The American system of government was designed to reign in those little authoritarians as best as possible while still allowing for the maximum level of personal liberty. And I think the Founders did about as well as man can conceive. It was asked of Franklin after the Constitutional Convention what it was they had given us.

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

Somedays- I'm not so sure we can. :(

Well said. Can I use it?

312 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:44:24pm

re: #302 avanti

I'm crushed.

One of your cars slip off the jack while you were under it?

Oh , wait , those are Studebakers. They don't weigh enough. Nevermind!

313 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:44:40pm

re: #306 Racer X

That or watching so many on the Right get completely destroyed by the FMSM over outright lies and false allegations.

*See Sarah Palin.

Who is the most hated politician in American history?

314 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:44:55pm

re: #255 freetoken

Agree.

However, there is implied in American culture that one's status level depends upon one's formal educational accomplishments, not what one does in the day to day world.

It is so human to look down upon others... we really are great apes with hierarchy within our tribe.

Upding for that - sad but true. I don't see it that way (even though I'm over-educated myself).

I think the whole thing has gotten insane. And there are just some things that aren't taught well in an academic setting, which would be much better taught through internships and technical ed. Programming is one of them. I'd rather hire someone who started coding because they thought it was cool and interesting when they were 12 than someone with an MIS degree who went in to it because they heard programmers make a lot of money.

I'm glad for my college education. I learned a lot of very interesting things, some of which I actually use in my day-to-day life... but it's mostly just a vehicle to make sure that I can get a pass on the having a degree thing if I wanted to go back to a traditional corporate role.

315 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:45:15pm

re: #307 iceweasel
There is no fucking excuse for that level of ignorance!

316 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:45:29pm

re: #313 haakondahl

Who is the most hated politician in American history?

world history...wait...in the entire known universe!

317 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:45:47pm
318 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:45:49pm

re: #295 albusteve

our system of education was our greatest treasure...we tossed it all away

Bill 'The ratfuck treasonous bastard' Ayers works hard to this day to continue destroying it. And is held in great esteem by the education establishment.
Fuck.

319 harpsicon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:45:51pm

re: #263 ~Fianna


It's quite a leap from non-compulsory education to child labor in the mines or factories!

You act as though today's teenagers are doing anything productive, especially in the inner-city precincts. It took welfare reform to get them (somewhat) to stop having babies just to collect the checks connected with having babies.

Consider the situation in NYC fifteen years ago. A girl who has a baby automatically gets an apartment, food stamps, clothing allowances, and all kinds of other goodies for the "poor" - kids were lining up for their pregnancy tests, hoping. A girl who graduated and went to work couldn't afford her own apartment, paid a lot of taxes, and generally didn't get anywhere the same good deal.

There's no need to compel elementary education; that's the easiest and least expensive - people have been "learning their letters and sums" for centuries!

How did all those brilliant scientists, philosophers and statesmen, like the founding fathers, ever learn anything without public education! And why do so very few approach anywhere near the same level nowadays? The answer of course is that political groups of all stripes use the system for indoctrination, first and foremost (refer to the people above saying how our result is sitting in the White House).

Let go. People will survive and get educated, probably better, without the public system and all the taxes and corruption. Teachers today are not what they were 50 years ago! How could they be - no discrimination (positive) based on quality, no good behavior in the classroom, all those extra bureaucrats interfering....

I repeat - what rock have you been hiding under, to think that this system is in any way worth saving!

320 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:46:10pm

re: #315 pingjockey

There is no fucking excuse for that level of ignorance!

the NEA is the excuse

321 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:46:21pm

re: #297 Walter L. Newton

I knew I liked you. Though I've pointed out some nice rear ends to my husband on occasion. The only time he got smacked is when he said "wow, your a** USED to look like that. Those were the days". I'm not sure he realized he was saying it out loud!

322 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:46:37pm

Wash day, nothing to wear, right?

Cops: Nude man shows up at dental office days late
Jul 8, 4:31 PM (ET)

STRATFORD, Conn. (AP) - Police say a Connecticut man has been arrested because he showed up at a dental office naked. Police say 41-year-old Christopher Hoff, of Stratford, also was five days late for his appointment. Authorities said Hoff entered Optimus Dental's office Monday with nothing on. A startled female receptionist screamed, and he ran away.

323 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:46:49pm

re: #317 Gus 802
Check out Sarkozy!

324 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:47:12pm

re: #315 pingjockey

There is no fucking excuse for that level of ignorance!

I know. It's shocking. I want to doublecheck the numbers and the people who did the study, but unfortunately I don't find it hard to believe.

325 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:47:30pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

We all have a little inner-authoritarian in us. Everyone thinks the world would be better if it was run their way. The American system of government was designed to reign in those little authoritarians as best as possible while still allowing for the maximum level of personal liberty. And I think the Founders did about as well as man can conceive. It was asked of Franklin after the Constitutional Convention what it was they had given us.

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

Somedays- I'm not so sure we can. :(

But but they were slave-owning racist misogynistic greed bags! They left out [insert leftist unconstrained thinking positive-rights claptrap here]!

/US university educated moonbat

326 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:47:30pm

re: #297 Walter L. Newton

Typical drooling male comment, I don't agree.

Actually, from a female perspective, I do. Hubby and I both have our "10 people it would be ok to have sex with and the other can't complain" list. We revise it all the time and discuss who is on or off our "list." It's fun. And the reasons for inclusion on the list are fun, too.

Of course, neither of us has a snowball's chance at ANYone on our lists, so it's just fun and sometimes informative.

327 clgood  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:47:34pm

Maybe it's the blind squirrel theory, but she's right about public schools (if wrong about the reason). School is not a proper function of government, and right now schools are just ignorance factories. These guys have the right idea.

I'll take it all back if you can point to where in the Constitution the federal government is authorized to meddle in education.

328 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:47:43pm
329 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:47:45pm

re: #323 pingjockey

Check out Sarkozy!

Yep, looks like he's watching the whole thing.

330 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:48:08pm

re: #280 pingjockey

Remember that civics test that we had here a while ago? I'd bet people over 50 do better on that test than people under 50. I missed two. My 17 year old, still in high school at the time missed half!

Oooh, does anyone have the link handy? I'd be curious to see how I do.

331 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:48:19pm

re: #321 ArmyWife

I knew I liked you. Though I've pointed out some nice rear ends to my husband on occasion. The only time he got smacked is when he said "wow, your a** USED to look like that. Those were the days". I'm not sure he realized he was saying it out loud!

I like to add, 'baby, I'm sure she wants you.'

332 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:48:54pm

re: #318 LGoPs

Bill 'The ratfuck treasonous bastard' Ayers works hard to this day to continue destroying it. And is held in great esteem by the education establishment.
Fuck.

yup...while parents are off watching AmIdol or drooling over the "where's M Jacksons corps"....others twiddle over Ron Paul and still more are fussing over the demise of Sarah Palin....what a waste

333 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:49:01pm

re: #329 Gus 802

Yep, looks like he's watching the whole thing.

The look on Sarkozy's face makes me think he can't believe what a rube Our Man Obama is.

334 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:49:05pm

re: #330 ~Fianna

Oooh, does anyone have the link handy? I'd be curious to see how I do.

Me too! I'm over 50.

335 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:49:12pm

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

I find myself wondering whether it would be possible to teach Civics in an exciting way. Hellboy water supervisors, or something.

The problem is, in large part, that Civics is actually about something--but something that the students have no personal understanding of at the age it is necessarily taught.

It reminds me of how incredibly dull I found Civil Procedure in law school. That may have been partly due to the teacher I had, but the essential fact of that class--that procedure can, and often does, determine content--was not well communicated, and only later did I find that out the hard way.

Why does it have to be anything. Dull, exciting or otherwise. When I was going to school, the whole concept was really simple "we teach, you learn."

I didn't get a choice in the matter.

Now we coddle and cuddle till they are 21 year sold, and many of them come out of the education system WORTHLESS.

And please, spare me the platitudes about self-esteem and diversity... make the little fucker's learn.

336 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:49:44pm

re: #286 haakondahl

I should think that both parties are entitled to rule out those with flatly un-Constitutional views. Now there's a litmus test with some legs on it.

What, exclude those who don't support the meaning of the second amendment?

//

337 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:50:15pm

re: #324 iceweasel
It is what I have come to expect and that is wrong. The NEA has failed in its job, or succeded if you are Bill Ayres. I am on my kids butts for 180 days to read, where's your homework, etc...Still some guidance must come from the classroom and the teachers who bust ass are far outnumbered by party hacks, especially in the urban school districts.

338 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:50:40pm

re: #335 Walter L. Newton

Why does it have to be anything. Dull, exciting or otherwise. When I was going to school, the whole concept was really simple "we teach, you learn."

I didn't get a choice in the matter.

Now we coddle and cuddle till they are 21 year sold, and many of them come out of the education system WORTHLESS.

And please, spare me the platitudes about self-esteem and diversity... make the little fucker's learn.

you said fuckers...

339 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:50:40pm

re: #282 Macker

Wait I thought that's what Shrillary threw around at Bill!

I've always wondered what the secret service teams did the night that the Monica thing broke... If the First Lady throws a lamp at the President, does his secret service agent jump in? If so, does HER secret service agent defend her from his secret service agent?

340 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:50:59pm

re: #334 BatGuano
see my 310

341 itellu3times  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:51:11pm

re: #327 clgood

Maybe it's the blind squirrel theory, but she's right about public schools (if wrong about the reason). School is not a proper function of government, and right now schools are just ignorance factories. These guys have the right idea.

I'll take it all back if you can point to where in the Constitution the federal government is authorized to meddle in education.

How about local government?

The real issue here is when the people lose control over the government.

If the government manages to take your money, then the golden rule prevails - them that has the gold, makes the rules.

I mean, if you and your neighbor cooperate on schooling both your children, is that "government"?

342 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:51:13pm

re: #288 avanti

"It does not matter where you get your appetite, as long as you dine at home."

If more people accepted this I think we'd have fewer affairs, fewer divorces, and longer-lasting relationships over-all.

343 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:51:17pm

re: #294 Syrah

I'm hoping more people will start to consider the role of civics education, and work to put it back into the schools, and learn some about it themselves. Dr Sowell has been such a help for me.

It's like -- knowing there's something more going on, but it doesn't make sense until the right bit of information turns a switch. Then suddenly things fall into place, and it all makes sense. And you'll never see things in the same light again.

I'm so very thankful for LGF having made it possible for you and I to "meet", and that you turned me on to a most incredible way of understanding. Thank you, {Syrah}. I will forever think of you in the most warmest of regards.

344 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:51:21pm

re: #303 reine.de.tout

31 out of 33 correct on that first one. I know my stuff! Well, not perfectly, but damn good enough!

345 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:51:48pm

re: #333 FurryOldGuyJeans

The look on Sarkozy's face makes me think he can't believe what a rube Our Man Obama is.

Yeah, something akin to Obama the rube noob.

Would be interesting to get Sarkozy's take on this. I'm sure the French media would ask. Not likely in the states. I'm sure the Obama bots are plotting eye trajectories in CAD as we speak.

//He was checking out her shoes!

/

346 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:52:09pm

re: #333 FurryOldGuyJeans
I think he's the one who told obambi to check it out. I mean, the man is married to a model!

347 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:52:26pm

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

I find myself wondering whether it would be possible to teach Civics in an exciting way. Hellboy water supervisors, or something.

The problem is, in large part, that Civics is actually about something--but something that the students have no personal understanding of at the age it is necessarily taught.

It reminds me of how incredibly dull I found Civil Procedure in law school. That may have been partly due to the teacher I had, but the essential fact of that class--that procedure can, and often does, determine content--was not well communicated, and only later did I find that out the hard way.

Good point, but w ejust have to hope that some information sinks in by osmosis if nothing else. I remeber scant littel from civics myself but I've retained the essentials regarding balance of power and roles and responsibilities.
I was musing with my wife this morning on the economic collapse, specifically in real estate and commented on the fact that thankfully we had avoided getting hurt not because of any particular knowledge or expertise - especially lacking in real estate for me - but because of heeding simple lessons taught early in life. Lessons like 'if it's too good to be true, it probably is' and 'there ain't no free lunch'.
Maybe it's as easy as that. Distill the basic concepts down and drill them in in early grammar school. Once the seed is planted, the rest will follow, in most cases, IMHO.

348 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:52:34pm

re: #337 pingjockey

It is what I have come to expect and that is wrong. The NEA has failed in its job, or succeded if you are Bill Ayres. I am on my kids butts for 180 days to read, where's your homework, etc...Still some guidance must come from the classroom and the teachers who bust ass are far outnumbered by party hacks, especially in the urban school districts.

And not every kid is lucky enough to have a parent like you, either. Combine that with bad teachers at school, or bad curricula (probably both), and we get results like this.

349 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:53:38pm

re: #342 iceweasel

If more people accepted this I think we'd have fewer affairs, fewer divorces, and longer-lasting relationships over-all.

that's been tried and proven false...you are way behind the curve

350 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:54:00pm

re: #317 Gus 802

Larger version of Obama at the G8!

You would not be surprised that I think the picture is just friggin normal male behavior, that butt was worth a second look.

351 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:54:02pm

re: #346 pingjockey

I think he's the one who told obambi to check it out. I mean, the man is married to a model!

Sarkozy is at least discreet in his leering, Our Man Obama is just so fucking obvious.

352 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:54:27pm

re: #280 pingjockey

Remember that civics test that we had here a while ago? I'd bet people over 50 do better on that test than people under 50. I missed two. My 17 year old, still in high school at the time missed half!

I think I did that. I believe I missed two also, and had an issue with the phrasing of one of those; but I'm over 60 so you did real good sonny.

353 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:54:32pm

re: #321 ArmyWife

I knew I liked you. Though I've pointed out some nice rear ends to my husband on occasion. The only time he got smacked is when he said "wow, your a** USED to look like that. Those were the days". I'm not sure he realized he was saying it out loud!

I like looking at women, all sorts of woman, I see something sexy in many if not most. But Avanti's comment was at that level of "walking thought life with a hard on" every time he comes across a sexy woman, sexy as in the popular media and Hollywood version of sexy.

For me, my seeing woman as sexy is simply a validation that I am male and heterosexual , but no, getting one's self worked up over another woman and then going home to blow off steam with your mate is not the right reason for making love.

Not for me.

354 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:54:54pm

re: #326 Russkilitlover

Actually, from a female perspective, I do. Hubby and I both have our "10 people it would be ok to have sex with and the other can't complain" list. We revise it all the time and discuss who is on or off our "list." It's fun. And the reasons for inclusion on the list are fun, too.

Of course, neither of us has a snowball's chance at ANYone on our lists, so it's just fun and sometimes informative.

Sorry, For me, my seeing woman as sexy is simply a validation that I am male and heterosexual , but no, getting one's self worked up over another woman and then going home to blow off steam with your mate is not the right reason for making love.

Not for me.

355 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:55:22pm

re: #350 avanti

Not surprised at all at you being a chauvinist pig, not one bit.

356 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:55:24pm

re: #348 iceweasel
Yep. "tis to weep".
My 9 yr old is pissed that dad got homework for summer! He has just a few problem books for 4th grade, math and such. But you'd of thought I killed his dog the way he carried on!

357 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:55:33pm
358 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:55:43pm

re: #326 Russkilitlover

Actually, from a female perspective, I do. Hubby and I both have our "10 people it would be ok to have sex with and the other can't complain" list. We revise it all the time and discuss who is on or off our "list." It's fun. And the reasons for inclusion on the list are fun, too.

Of course, neither of us has a snowball's chance at ANYone on our lists, so it's just fun and sometimes informative.

I have friends who do the same thing!

They've been happily married for 18 years now. :)
Probably one of the happiest couples I know.

359 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:56:13pm

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

I find myself wondering whether it would be possible to teach Civics in an exciting way.

Civics, and the principles of the founding of our country are dead exciting! Our founders were Revolutionaries, their vision and actions are the epitome of passion. It becomes easier to tell their history when you remind younger folks that these were not old, white men conjuring up a new system from smokey drawing rooms. They were dynamic youngsters, with a passion to make a better way.

(Okay, so I'm a history geek and get all moisty-eyed when studying the American Revolution. Especially Paul Revere - he's a hotty fer sure!)

360 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:56:13pm

re: #351 FurryOldGuyJeans
Heh. As the prez, you better be discreet when you leer!

361 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:56:36pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

Hi Sharmuta. I ran back up thread just to upding you. We haven't been able to keep our republic. As I posted on another thread yesterday, in the last two days I have read the Constitution 3 times and I am amazed. It clearly states the roles of all three branches. And what has been happening over the last X number of years is clearly contrary to the intent of the framers. We are precariously close to losing the Constitution in its entirety.

362 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:56:38pm

re: #350 avanti

You would not be surprised that I think the picture is just friggin normal male behavior, that butt was worth a second look.

he needs to shelve his 'normal male' behaviors and proceed as POTUS....he's a tacky street thug and has no clue...blow it off if you need to

363 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:56:49pm

re: #350 avanti

You would not be surprised that I think the picture is just friggin normal male behavior, that butt was worth a second look.

You mean I'm supposed to look the other way? Go back a couple of years and look up Bush at a certain volley ball game.

364 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:57:23pm

re: #355 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not surprised at all at you being a chauvinist pig, not one bit.

In his defense, the woman's got a fine ass.

And, Avanti, that's the first time I've up-dinged you.

365 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:57:34pm

re: #350 avanti

You would not be surprised that I think the picture is just friggin normal male behavior, that butt was worth a second look.

For you, it's also normal to take trips to a casino with woman friends and partying. You have mentioned that here a number of times. And if your wife thinks that's normal, well, you fooled her, didn't you?

366 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:57:41pm

re: #340 pingjockey

Thank you. I came in late.

367 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:57:53pm

re: #347 LGoPs

Good point, but w ejust have to hope that some information sinks in by osmosis if nothing else. I remeber scant littel from civics myself but I've retained the essentials regarding balance of power and roles and responsibilities.
I was musing with my wife this morning on the economic collapse, specifically in real estate and commented on the fact that thankfully we had avoided getting hurt not because of any particular knowledge or expertise - especially lacking in real estate for me - but because of heeding simple lessons taught early in life. Lessons like 'if it's too good to be true, it probably is' and 'there ain't no free lunch'.
Maybe it's as easy as that. Distill the basic concepts down and drill them in in early grammar school. Once the seed is planted, the rest will follow, in most cases, IMHO.

Apologies for the bad editing. Apparently English is not my first language///.
BTW - I meant checks and balances, rather than balance of power......

368 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:58:06pm

re: #363 Gus 802
Oh yeah. GW reverted to fighter jock at that photo op! Can't blame him either.

369 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:58:15pm

Did anyone notice the lady behind Barry? Is that Michelle? If it is, she sure has "that look" on her face!

370 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:58:28pm

re: #360 pingjockey

Heh. As the prez, you better be discreet when you leer!

Interesting that the last two Democratic presidents have been nothing by lecherous.

371 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:58:39pm

re: #358 iceweasel

I have friends who do the same thing!

They've been happily married for 18 years now. :)
Probably one of the happiest couples I know.

I'm at 28 years going on 29. Hubby still the hottest guy on the planet ;}

372 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:08pm

re: #357 buzzsawmonkey

True, true. But there's nothing wrong with trying to make people interested in what they're taught...

I didn't say there was, but this discussion was based on the fact that they are not learning any of this at all. My first comment stands. Let's get back to teaching them PERIOD. Then we can worry about making it "fun."

373 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:11pm

re: #301 haakondahl

Bullshit! I have worked plenty of jobs with plenty of people who dropped out of high school or just squeaked past, or even did very well. I don't recall any of them who wound up in jail.
Do you know anybody without a college degree?

My mother, father and husband to start. Our housemate. At the company I'm a partner at, I'm the only person with a degree and I didn't obtain mine until I was 25.

We're talking about the education system as a whole. There are other places where we specifically are talking about high school.

Look at the statistics, here's one example: [Link: cpe.ky.gov...] Here's another [Link: www.opb.state.ga.us...] (This is a PDF, education is discussed starting on pg 12 of the PDF)

374 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:22pm
375 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:24pm

re: #256 RunningBare

Nice, sharmuta. I'll let you have the last word on it, but the bottom line is simply this:

Once a politician gets into office, it almost always becomes about power, re-election, and other stuff - rarely, if ever, does the thought "Hey, this might not be constitutional, maybe I should hold off on this..." ever cross their mind. If it will give them more power, influence, a better office, or re-election, they'll do it.

I actually can't believe we're arguing over that.

At this point, I think I'd feel fortunate to know they read what they were voting on.

376 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:36pm

re: #370 FurryOldGuyJeans

Interesting that the last two Democratic presidents have been nothing by but lecherous.

*sigh*

377 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:43pm

re: #368 pingjockey

Oh yeah. GW reverted to fighter jock at that photo op! Can't blame him either.

The moonbats went psycho.

378 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:45pm
379 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:50pm

re: #366 BatGuano
No worries. I need to go look at that test anyway. I used to write electronics tests while I was a navy instructor and one of the questions is either wrong or worded poorly.

380 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:50pm

re: #370 FurryOldGuyJeans

Interesting that the last two Democratic presidents have been nothing by lecherous.

Don't forget, ol' Dhimmi had lust in his heart!

381 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 4:59:51pm

re: #321 ArmyWife

I knew I liked you. Though I've pointed out some nice rear ends to my husband on occasion. The only time he got smacked is when he said "wow, your a** USED to look like that. Those were the days". I'm not sure he realized he was saying it out loud!

I was thinking the same thing - if my husband walked by her without even looking I'd be worried that he was ill.

382 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:00:41pm

re: #381 ~Fianna

I was thinking the same thing - if my husband walked by her without even looking I'd be worried that he was ill.

Ok, make that the last 3. ;)

383 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:01:19pm

re: #377 Gus 802
I'm not gonna dis the prez for looking. There is way too much other crap going on to worry about him looking at a nice rear.

384 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:01:54pm

re: #357 buzzsawmonkey

True, true. But there's nothing wrong with trying to make people interested in what they're taught.

Girlfriend of mine--high school valedictorian--never learned much history, always had thought it "boring." After we'd been together a while, she changed her mind; she started to see not only that there's a lot of exciting stuff in history as stories, and that history affects what's going on today. Then we went to Europe together--her first time--and, confronted with actual hunks of leftover Rome, and the like, she was blown away by the panorama of it, and the realization that it was all real.

Yes, I know we've got plenty of homegrown history, but sometimes you have to step away from the known to appreciate the larger pattern. I think we could do a lot better as far as getting people to understand that they are part of the march of the great human endeavor.

So, dating you will drive a girl into the books?

385 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:01:54pm

An open letter to Texas Republicans,

Dear members of the GOP from the great state of Texas,

In debacle after debacle, by trying to blur the lines between science and dogma; state and church, you have, in an attempt to cravenly curry the favor of the most extreme members of our society, managed to inextricably link notion of the GOP with being anti-science, anti-constitution and dare I say it, anti-American.

Perhaps some of you are stupid enough to believe the non-science and non-sense of quack organizations like the Discovery institute, but it seems unlikely that you personally are that stupid or uneducated. If you don't really believe it yourself, it must only be that you are doing this because you are that craven, and that much at a loss for ideas. Perhaps you present this side show because you have nothing substanitve to say about the wars in the Middle East, the economy, nuclear proliferation or the rise of a newly emboldened FSU.

And let's be honest, you really aren't the best Christians out there. If you were, you would be talking a lot more about charity for the poor and be opposed to capital punishment, (really WWJD? would it be to preach forgiveness, atonement and redemption? Or, would it be to preach streamlining legal proceedures so that there can be more lethal injection even if it means increasing the risk of executing an innocent? WWJD?) Most people get that you aren't the best Christians. You just try to pander to certain Christains with non-issues because you want to curry votes.

Let's discuss seperation of Church and State. The Establisment Clause does not mean seperating someone else's Church from the State, while you ingraine yours into it. It means your Church and your Dogma have no place in the state at all, except perhaps as something that speaks to your individual conscience when you vote. This is a good idea. It is one of the corner stones of our Republic. It means, that I won't be teaching your kids my doctrine with the full authority of the state. You probably wouldn't like that. I'm Jewish.

It means that unlike hundereds of years of religious wars, like those that engulfed Europe, will not touch our shores, and paradoxically, because of it, produce a more religious nation. This is because people will be free to truly follow their own hearts and find their own walks with God. If you look at Europe today, in the aftermath of state religions, you will see, that amongst most Europeans, faith is considered a sign of stupidity.

That is part of why your stance on the school board is so anti American. There is also the simple issue of just being stupid.

Do you really think that with whatever background you have, you know better than actual scientific evidence presented year after year by the entire legirtimate scientific community? Ahhh, you smugly chuckle, we'll just redfine science. Suppose that you succeeded in that. Do you like modern medicine? Do you like being alive because of treatments you received because we understand science - or would you perhap prefer to go back to bloodletting and balancing humors? Unfortunately, we know the answer to that. If enough quacks, with enough money and potential votes showed up screaming for leeches, you would be the first to try to rewrite the medical books and enact laws for leech ranches - particularly if your brother had a good deal on the land.

I write this to you because it would be nice to have an intellignet counterweight to the Democrats. But you ain't it.

386 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:02:05pm

re: #374 busmen

Congratulations, but you have yet to encounter the Age of Sag.

That's 28 years of Marriage. Age of Sag began a bit ago.....but is fought tenaciously!

387 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:02:11pm

re: #383 pingjockey

I'm not gonna dis the prez for looking. There is way too much other crap going on to worry about him looking at a nice rear.

Yeah, I suppose.

388 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:02:36pm

re: #377 Gus 802
They're always psycho!

389 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:02:40pm

re: #369 Macker

Did anyone notice the lady behind Barry? Is that Michelle? If it is, she sure has "that look" on her face!

Can't be her, the lady in question has sleeves.

390 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:03:37pm

Wait, the woman in the purple dress, she's over 18 right?

391 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:03:38pm

re: #388 pingjockey

They're always psycho!

Psycho Moonbat Safari!

//

392 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:03:39pm

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

I find myself wondering whether it would be possible to teach Civics in an exciting way. Hellboy water supervisors, or something.

The problem is, in large part, that Civics is actually about something--but something that the students have no personal understanding of at the age it is necessarily taught.

It reminds me of how incredibly dull I found Civil Procedure in law school. That may have been partly due to the teacher I had, but the essential fact of that class--that procedure can, and often does, determine content--was not well communicated, and only later did I find that out the hard way.

I remember taking Civics in HS and it was dull as dirt. At the High Schools where I live, "Civics" was often taught by a coach as his teaching assignment.

My daughter has had "civics" in school, but it isn't called civics anymore (she goes to a private school).

Also, here in Louisiana, there is a Youth Legislature program. It adds some interest to the topic, but I'm afraid it occurs at an age where, as you say, they students have no personal understanding of the topic nor of the importance of what they are being taught.

393 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:03:50pm

re: #373 ~Fianna

My mother, father and husband to start. Our housemate. At the company I'm a partner at, I'm the only person with a degree and I didn't obtain mine until I was 25.

We're talking about the education system as a whole. There are other places where we specifically are talking about high school.

Look at the statistics, here's one example: [Link: cpe.ky.gov...] Here's another [Link: www.opb.state.ga.us...] (This is a PDF, education is discussed starting on pg 12 of the PDF)

It sure looked like you were talking about college or jail. That's what I responded to.

394 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:03:50pm

Cynthia Dunbar would fit right in at certain of the seminaries in Qom.

395 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:04:02pm

re: #381 ~Fianna

I was thinking the same thing - if my husband walked by her without even looking I'd be worried that he was ill.

And neither am I. My comment above was in regards to Avanti's suggestion that it doesn't matter "where you get you appetite" as long as you feed it at home.

I thought that was crude and wrong, and really a real dump on woman, his mate, or who ever.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with recognizing sexy in another person.

396 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:04:05pm

re: #391 Gus 802
Heh! Good one.

397 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:04:15pm

re: #371 Russkilitlover

I'm at 28 years going on 29. Hubby still the hottest guy on the planet ;}

That's awesome! :)
No doubt the great communication you share is a large part of that. That's why I think there's nothing wrong with checking out what's around you and talking about it.

I know it's a stale old trope, but affairs start happening when people stop talking...and a lot of sexual attraction/desire starts in the head. If you can share your sexual imaginations, physical fidelity is not only easier but even better than any other sex with any other number of people.

IMO, of course.

398 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:04:16pm

re: #375 capitalist piglet

At this point, I think I'd feel fortunate to know they read what they were voting on.

I think it's outrageous and unacceptable that they don't. I think it borders on gross incompetence and in any other profession would be grounds for firing. It is their job for crying out loud.
*No Representation without reading the fucking laws you pass, asshats*

399 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:04:29pm

people do all kinds of bizarre stuff to turn each other on....I've never yet heard of keeping a rolling list of 'people I want to fuck' and pouring over status ect with your spouse....that is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard

400 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:04:48pm

re: #396 pingjockey

Heh! Good one.

I'm suddenly getting an interest in women's volleyball.

=)

401 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:04:56pm

re: #342 iceweasel

If more people accepted this I think we'd have fewer affairs, fewer divorces, and longer-lasting relationships over-all.

I was lucky, I met my wife when I was friends with her girl friend. She introduced us, and she's my oldest female friend, although I've had others over the years, it's all a matter of trust.

402 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:05:10pm
403 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:05:30pm

re: #400 Gus 802
Oh Yeah!

404 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:05:35pm

re: #374 buzzsawmonkey

Congratulations, but you have yet to encounter the Age of Sag.

Hopefully, vision fails at the same time.

405 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:05:59pm

Later folks!

406 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:06:36pm

re: #404 debutaunt

Hopefully, vision fails at the same time.

Unfortunately, so does memory.

407 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:06:47pm

re: #342 iceweasel

If more people kept their pants on, we'd have fewer affairs.

408 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:07:14pm

Night all!

409 haakondahl  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:07:58pm

You answered 32 out of 33 correctly — 96.97 %

Average score for this quiz during July: 75.9%
Average score: 75.9%

Woo-Hoo!

410 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:07:58pm

re: #361 BatGuano

Hello, Excrement of the Bat's Rear Private Part.

I am likewise concerned the republic is not looking so good. But I think we can still salvage it. A lot of the problem is Congress and their spending habits. I think it needs real reform, and the power of their spending needs to be restricted. This is why I favor the balanced budget amendment to restrict their power, and follow it up with real reforms on spending habits.

The states and Federal government should not be trading money back and forth so much. As Goldwater points out in The Conscience of a Conservative with education spending- the states send education money to Washington, who takes a cut, then sends money back to the states. How wasteful. I'm sure there are many areas where we'd find similar procedures. This needs to stop. The government needs to spend it's money wisely, like a real business would do.

These are the types of things I would be having the GOP discuss at this time. These are areas where we can try to hold the line on the rule of law and the separation of powers and salvage our Republic. There is always a connection between power and money. For me- "smaller government" rhetoric equates to fiscal restraint. It's why I joined the GOP. If they are not going to be that party anymore- then I am out.

411 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:03pm

re: #310 pingjockey

[Link: www.americancivicliteracy.org...]
This is the one, IIRC.
Thanks reine!

Missed 2 - What was the source of the following phrase: “Government of the people, by the people, for the people”? (I thought it was the Declaration) and 33, which was a dumb mistake - I should have read all the answers before I picked.

412 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:08pm

OT~

We are so screwed. If the Democrats have their way there could be a top marginal tax rate of 51%. This is scary as hell. And I'm not sure there is anyone to stop this.

413 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:09pm

Tough week

It's over

Hells yeah

Pass the Decanter

414 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:19pm

So long until tomorrow.

/who th' hell used that, Murrow?

415 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:21pm
416 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:39pm

re: #399 albusteve

people do all kinds of bizarre stuff to turn each other on....I've never yet heard of keeping a rolling list of 'people I want to fuck' and pouring over status ect with your spouse....that is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard

I agree. I would seem to me if I had to get myself worked up over some OTHER woman in order to heighten my sexual encounter with my mate, then I am not being honest when I am making love to her.

Then who am I making love to? Who am I thinking about? Why has my libido been sparked? Because the person I am lying there naked with, close to, sharing with, because that person DIDN"T turn me on at the moment and I had to call in the mental second string?

417 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:46pm

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey


Great comment. There actually have been courageous leaders. Unfortunately, they stick out so much because acts of integrity are so rare.

418 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:47pm

re: #276 FurryOldGuyJeans

Any excuse to get naked, it seems:

Skinny-dippers to go for world record
by Betty Reid - Jul. 9, 2009 07:37 AM
The Arizona Republic

Well, I got no problem with mass skinny-dipping as long as it's for a truly worthwhile cause -- such as setting a Guinness Record -- and not for some stupid reason, like trying to magically bring about world peace via a harmonic convergence of ass-fat.

419 J.S.  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:55pm

Speaking of civics, there's a great book -- "The Genius of America" -- which I highly recommend. It was written by two authors (one a historian, the other a journalist.) It's their contention that the Revolutionary fervor which gripped America in 1776 was not sustained indefinitely...and, in fact, a completely different mind-set developed (a considered, deliberate, rational, anti-hysterical, anti-fervor), one which led to the drafting of the US Constitution. And, the key author of the Constitution was Madison (who was no "revolutionary" idealist -- on the contrary, he was a pragmatic realist who had no grand illusions about the nature of power or ordinary people when they can obtain power. It was Madison's belief that power will always expand, exponentially if allowed to do so...and no matter how much one advises "But, but, but you must curb your impulses for the greater good! !" that would always be ignored. Sooo, the only way to curb the exponential growth of power would be through a system of checks and balances -- of a separation of power (but with a triangular system of differing bodies -- executive, judicial, legislative -- overlooking, watching, limiting the powers of the others). This system (the real genius of America -- note that parliamentary systems don't have this kind of tripartite bodies; a parliamentary system welds the excutive and legislative branches into one ) would then force compromises to take place...Again, this was not based on some starry-eyed naive notion that people would just naturally limit their power for "the greater good" -- no, there would have to be competing bodies to do the limiting...

420 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:08:59pm

The girl Obama and Sarko is checking out is a "junior G8" member from Brazil. I'm looking for a link now. lol

421 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:09:23pm

re: #361 BatGuano

Hi Sharmuta. I ran back up thread just to upding you. We haven't been able to keep our republic. As I posted on another thread yesterday, in the last two days I have read the Constitution 3 times and I am amazed. It clearly states the roles of all three branches. And what has been happening over the last X number of years is clearly contrary to the intent of the framers. We are precariously close to losing the Constitution in its entirety.

Part of that goes back to the original disputes between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists over the Bill of Rights. One side felt the Constitution should say that the government can only do x, y, z, etc and anything not listed, it cannon do, but the states and people can. The other side was afraid that if certain restrictions on government were not explicitly spelled out, that their lack of appearance in the constitution would not stop them from happening anyway.

Right or wrong, the fact that the bill of rights spelled out a lot of "Government cannot do such and such" situations, it is now being taken for granted by the public and politicians who should know better that if it's not explicitly allowed, it's apparently not restricted either. Libertarians and Paulians of course take this to asinine extremes, but they somewhat recognize the gist of the problem correctly.

We've been "doing it wrong" for 200ish years though. It's a little late to call bullshit now. Going after the most egregious wastes of taxpayer money and stopping anything further is probably the only reasonable approach to this but its hard to use Constitutional original-intent as a reason without sounding hypocritical or like a Paulian kook.

422 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:09:28pm

re: #401 avanti

I was lucky, I met my wife when I was friends with her girl friend. She introduced us, and she's my oldest female friend, although I've had others over the years, it's all a matter of trust.

Exactly. Trust is what's key.

I think this is partly generational too, but not entirely. Some of my closest friends are male, and those friendships have lasted regardless of whatever romantic relationships either of us have. It's a precondition for our romantic partners that they can handle the friendship.

Trust is key, as are boundaries.

423 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:09:32pm

re: #412 Dahveed

OT~

We are so screwed. If the Democrats have their way there could be a top marginal tax rate of 51%. This is scary as hell. And I'm not sure there is anyone to stop this.

But, no new taxes, right?

424 jdog29  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:09:45pm

There ought to be a blog or some kind of media outlet to keep up with all these radicals who have us one step from the funny farm///

Thanks Charles.

425 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:09:48pm

re: #310 pingjockey

I missed four.Back to the history books.

426 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:09:56pm

re: #414 pre-Boomer Marine brat

So long until tomorrow.

/who th' hell used that, Murrow?

Says here Lowell Thomas.

427 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:10:21pm

re: #420 snowcrash

The girl Obama and Sarko is checking out is a "junior G8" member from Brazil. I'm looking for a link now. lol

haha-- hurry! :)

428 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:10:29pm

re: #416 Walter L. Newton

I agree. I would seem to me if I had to get myself worked up over some OTHER woman in order to heighten my sexual encounter with my mate, then I am not being honest when I am making love to her.

Then who am I making love to? Who am I thinking about? Why has my libido been sparked? Because the person I am lying there naked with, close to, sharing with, because that person DIDN"T turn me on at the moment and I had to call in the mental second string?

you are a good man Walter....I have to confess my wife paid me to have sex with her....don't hate me bro!

429 Syrah  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:10:39pm

re: #343 Sharmuta

You are very kind.

This IS a grand forum.

Keep hope. Stay focused. Be patient and forgiving.

working in politics/philosphy is a bit like working in a tide. Sometimes everything seems to be working against you, threatening to drag you and everything that you have hopes for out to destruction. Then it all turns, and the rush of things going your way threatens to overrun and overwhelm you.

We work with the tide we have. At present, the tide is very worrisome.

Do not be discouraged.

430 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:11:00pm

Scroll half way down page for front view of the young lady.

431 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:11:11pm

re: #399 albusteve

people do all kinds of bizarre stuff to turn each other on....I've never yet heard of keeping a rolling list of 'people I want to fuck' and pouring over status ect with your spouse....that is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard

Bizarre. That's me! For a long time Prime Minister John Major was on my "list." I didn't want to have sex with him per se, but I did want to lounge nude in my leather library chair and have him read Russian poetry to me.

432 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:11:24pm

32 out of 33 on the Civics test. Tempted to give it to my 17 year old.

433 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:11:31pm
434 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:11:40pm

re: #411 ~Fianna

Missed 2 - What was the source of the following phrase: “Government of the people, by the people, for the people”? (I thought it was the Declaration) and 33, which was a dumb mistake - I should have read all the answers before I picked.

I got #2 correct, but missed #33 (no excuses for me, I just picked the wrong answer) and a couple of others.

435 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:11:46pm

re: #326 Russkilitlover

Actually, from a female perspective, I do. Hubby and I both have our "10 people it would be ok to have sex with and the other can't complain" list. We revise it all the time and discuss who is on or off our "list." It's fun. And the reasons for inclusion on the list are fun, too.

Of course, neither of us has a snowball's chance at ANYone on our lists, so it's just fun and sometimes informative.

Since others have admitted it, I'll join in. We joke about our list, and my wife will point out the occasional hottie for me,and I'll do the same. I may say, "yea, she's cute, but too phony", my wife might say something else, just fun conversation.
.

436 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:12:26pm

re: #430 snowcrash

Scroll half way down page for front view of the young lady.

Rut roh.

437 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:12:26pm

re: #422 iceweasel

Exactly. Trust is what's key.

I think this is partly generational too, but not entirely. Some of my closest friends are male, and those friendships have lasted regardless of whatever romantic relationships either of us have. It's a precondition for our romantic partners that they can handle the friendship.

Trust is key, as are boundaries.

something tells me you have either never been married or been married several times....are you a fan of Dr Ruth?

438 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:13:00pm

re: #430 snowcrash

Scroll half way down page for front view of the young lady.

Back side's better.

Did I just say that?

439 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:13:23pm

re: #410 Sharmuta


Hey Sharm,

There are a lot of things that we could do to stream line. We don't because as soon as you start pulling snouts from the trough, piggies with connections start to squeal.

Education is really the least of our issues financially. It is the tiniest drop in our budgetary buckets. Think about it. For a paltry 200 million a year, we could send 50,000 kids to college.

440 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:13:47pm

re: #423 debutaunt

But, no new taxes, right?

Only the people that already don't pay taxes will get a tax break. Who knew that it actually paid NOT to work?

441 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:13:53pm

re: #319 harpsicon

It's quite a leap from non-compulsory education to child labor in the mines or factories!

You act as though today's teenagers are doing anything productive, especially in the inner-city precincts. It took welfare reform to get them (somewhat) to stop having babies just to collect the checks connected with having babies.

Consider the situation in NYC fifteen years ago. A girl who has a baby automatically gets an apartment, food stamps, clothing allowances, and all kinds of other goodies for the "poor" - kids were lining up for their pregnancy tests, hoping. A girl who graduated and went to work couldn't afford her own apartment, paid a lot of taxes, and generally didn't get anywhere the same good deal.

There's no need to compel elementary education; that's the easiest and least expensive - people have been "learning their letters and sums" for centuries!

How did all those brilliant scientists, philosophers and statesmen, like the founding fathers, ever learn anything without public education! And why do so very few approach anywhere near the same level nowadays? The answer of course is that political groups of all stripes use the system for indoctrination, first and foremost (refer to the people above saying how our result is sitting in the White House).

Let go. People will survive and get educated, probably better, without the public system and all the taxes and corruption. Teachers today are not what they were 50 years ago! How could they be - no discrimination (positive) based on quality, no good behavior in the classroom, all those extra bureaucrats interfering....

I repeat - what rock have you been hiding under, to think that this system is in any way worth saving!

Most of those founding fathers, scientists and statesmen were rich. I'm not against education.. I'm just against the idea of pulling all public funding from education. There are cases like Lincoln, who was self-made, but we've limited the ability to go that route (try being a lawyer without going to law school today) so if we don't give young kids the chance to get a start, even if their parents are poor, we're going to lose one of the things that makes America very unique and special - the chance for anyone no matter what their background who works hard to advance themselves with no limit.

I support (and have worked on initiatives to support) vouchers because most of the public education sucks. But it's still better than nothing and if there isn't a free, baseline system, we're going to watch literacy rates drop like stones.

And I'd like to see a cite about girls lining up for pregnancy tests hoping. I grew up in NYC and that wasn't happening.

Public education definitely needs an overhaul, but it needs to exist.

442 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:14:28pm

re: #407 ArmyWife

If more people kept their pants on, we'd have fewer affairs.

Unfortunately a lot of people have 'emotional affairs' which are quite as devastating to the intimacy and communication within their primary relationship, even if sex never happens.

It's not as simple as saying that if the pants didn't come off, no affair or transgression happened.

443 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:14:34pm

so does avanti get russkilitlover aroused for sex?...the other way around?

444 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:15:44pm

re: #419 J.S.

Speaking of civics, there's a great book -- "The Genius of America" -- which I highly recommend. It was written by two authors (one a historian, the other a journalist.) It's their contention that the Revolutionary fervor which gripped America in 1776 was not sustained indefinitely...and, in fact, a completely different mind-set developed (a considered, deliberate, rational, anti-hysterical, anti-fervor), one which led to the drafting of the US Constitution. And, the key author of the Constitution was Madison (who was no "revolutionary" idealist -- on the contrary, he was a pragmatic realist who had no grand illusions about the nature of power or ordinary people when they can obtain power. It was Madison's belief that power will always expand, exponentially if allowed to do so...and no matter how much one advises "But, but, but you must curb your impulses for the greater good! !" that would always be ignored. Sooo, the only way to curb the exponential growth of power would be through a system of checks and balances -- of a separation of power (but with a triangular system of differing bodies -- executive, judicial, legislative -- overlooking, watching, limiting the powers of the others). This system (the real genius of America -- note that parliamentary systems don't have this kind of tripartite bodies; a parliamentary system welds the excutive and legislative branches into one ) would then force compromises to take place...Again, this was not based on some starry-eyed naive notion that people would just naturally limit their power for "the greater good" -- no, there would have to be competing bodies to do the limiting...

That encapsulates the essential brilliance of the US system. And we are on the verge of destroying it and the ones that voted for it did it in complete ignorance of what they are destroying. It's enough to make you cry.
But who gives a damn.....we need to know who's on American Idol.
/

445 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:15:47pm

re: #443 albusteve

so does avanti get russkilitlover aroused for sex?...the other way around?

Downding for that. Russkilitlover has been happily married for almost 30 years. Who the fuck are you to dare criticise that, or her?

446 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:15:52pm

the difference between the GOP and satire is almost impossible to see at this point

447 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:16:29pm

are we gonna have a cyber menege a trois?

448 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:16:29pm

re: #344 Macker

31 out of 33 correct on that first one. I know my stuff! Well, not perfectly, but damn good enough!

Which ones did you miss?

449 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:17:00pm

re: #445 iceweasel

Downding for that. Russkilitlover has been happily married for almost 30 years. Who the fuck are you to dare criticise that, or her?

I'm whoever the fuck I wanna be...just like you

450 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:17:29pm

re: #442 iceweasel

It's self control. I've been married going on 19 years - much of those 19 years we spent apart due to various military deployments, schools, what have you. I've never cheated on my husband, emotionally or otherwise because it is wrong to do so.

451 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:18:12pm

re: #446 spacejesus

the difference between the GOP and satire is almost impossible to see at this point

Gaze
Starren
Regard fixe
Sguardo fisso
Olhar fixo
Staar

452 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:18:14pm

re: #446 spacejesus

the difference between the GOP and satire is almost impossible to see at this point

The difference between the Dems and satire is almost impossible to see at this point.

453 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:18:24pm

re: #393 haakondahl

It sure looked like you were talking about college or jail. That's what I responded to.

The start was all the way back at the top of this thread.

I actually think too many people go to college at this point, and for a lot of them it's a wasted expense.

454 Russkilitlover  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:18:32pm

re: #445 iceweasel

Who the fuck are you to dare criticise that, or her?

A multiple divorcee?

455 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:18:41pm

re: #410 Sharmuta

I agree. I want the Republican leadership (RNC, Congress, etc.) to rededicate themselves to the Constitution. I hope we have not drifted so far from it that we cannot get back;in which case I will be looking for a new party.

456 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:18:43pm

re: #430 snowcrash

Scroll half way down page for front view of the young lady.

She's 16 years old.

Mayara Tavares, is 16 and lives in the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
She inherited from her grandmother and father a passion to take part in
community action and social movements and has been an activist in her
community fighting for children and adolescent rights. She has recently
acted as a community researcher interviewing other adolescents in the
community about their lives and how it feels for them to be growing up in
the shantytowns of Rio de Janeiro. Through this work she became part of a
National Platform for the improvement of poor communities situated in
large urban centers, an initiative carried out by UNICEF in Brazil. She also
became a member of the Youth Forum in her municipality and hopes that she can continue to engage her peers in this work.

457 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:18:43pm

Where is TFK?

458 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:19:47pm

re: #457 ArmyWife

Where is TFK?

Having supper with Ron Paul tonight:)

459 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:19:52pm

re: #433 buzzsawmonkey

They are rare. All the more reason why they need to be remembered--and remembered, dare I say it, with some little bit of reverence.

NO argument from me Buzzy.

460 Syrah  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:19:53pm

My-oh-my.

Someone has just threatened to grill a Tri-Tip at me.

I will be back later this evening after the said Tri-Tip threat has been properly and thoroughly dealt with.

461 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:19:56pm

re: #448 ~Fianna

Which ones did you miss?

Dang it, I think #12 and #31.

462 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:20:13pm

re: #441 ~Fianna

Most of those founding fathers, scientists and statesmen were rich. I'm not against education.. I'm just against the idea of pulling all public funding from education. There are cases like Lincoln, who was self-made, but we've limited the ability to go that route (try being a lawyer without going to law school today) so if we don't give young kids the chance to get a start, even if their parents are poor, we're going to lose one of the things that makes America very unique and special - the chance for anyone no matter what their background who works hard to advance themselves with no limit.

I support (and have worked on initiatives to support) vouchers because most of the public education sucks. But it's still better than nothing and if there isn't a free, baseline system, we're going to watch literacy rates drop like stones.

And I'd like to see a cite about girls lining up for pregnancy tests hoping. I grew up in NYC and that wasn't happening.

Public education definitely needs an overhaul, but it needs to exist.

I agree with you that public education needs to exist, but at the local level; the feds need to be out of it completely, IMO.

And very interesting to see you support vouchers. I haven't quite figured out yet if I think that's the best solution, partly because I would want to see a requirement that students who get the vouchers use them only at schools that meet certain curriculum standards (which of course, would have to be mandated by a governmental entity of some sort otherwise).

There are apparently some fundamentalist Christian schools that teach creationism in lieu of scientific evolution. And of course, there is the fear that some Muslim organizations would establish madrassah-type schools for Muslims, where the primary topic taught would be hate.

463 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:20:24pm

re: #458 Walter L. Newton

ok, that was kinda funny.

464 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:20:28pm

re: #454 Russkilitlover

A multiple divorcee?

Quite possibly. Someone who's bitter, in any case. And who apparently thinks Dr Ruth is the devil. :)

465 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:20:35pm

re: #443 albusteve

Missed the lead in for that comment but it appears to be pure WTFery. puhleez. Russki can do better than that!

466 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:21:06pm

Not a big watcher of the nightly news but did anyone else spot this.....on NBC they had a report on Obama at the G8 and four times, by my count, the on air reporter called him Mr. Obama. Now I don't like the guy but dammit he is the President and he should be referred to as President Obama.

467 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:22:12pm

re: #464 iceweasel

Quite possibly. Someone who's bitter, in any case. And who apparently thinks Dr Ruth is the devil. :)

I'm not bitter...where did you get your net credentials to think that?....you continue to amuse taking all this so serious...ding me, over and over again, I could care less

468 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:22:31pm

re: #457 ArmyWife

Where is TFK?

Round table discussion with Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell, Peter Schiff, and Michael Badnarik.

I think the after dinner entertainment is a seance to communicate with Aaron Russo and get his input on the "Audit the Fed" bill.

469 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:22:56pm

re: #464 iceweasel

Albusteve is a lot of things, but bitter isn't one. He's gone through some stuff, friends.

470 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:23:03pm

re: #466 Big Steve

Not a big watcher of the nightly news but did anyone else spot this.....on NBC they had a report on Obama at the G8 and four times, by my count, the on air reporter called him Mr. Obama. Now I don't like the guy but dammit he is the President and he should be referred to as President Obama.

Presidents have been referred to as "Mr." for a long, long time.

471 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:23:15pm
472 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:23:23pm

re: #439 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey Sharm,

There are a lot of things that we could do to stream line. We don't because as soon as you start pulling snouts from the trough, piggies with connections start to squeal.

Education is really the least of our issues financially. It is the tiniest drop in our budgetary buckets. Think about it. For a paltry 200 million a year, we could send 50,000 kids to college.

I agree there are areas where it's much worse than education, but being this thread is concerned with the education establishment, I thought I'd try to mention it.

The federal government does have the right to certain powers, the rest belong to the states and the People. For me- it's the monetary component of power that this boils down to. It's my money. As a citizen of this country, I share a portion of my money with the government to support our society and it's ability to function for the betterment of us all. But how much power the government has to take my money, to spend it recklessly, and where they don't have the authority to do so should be of concern to all Americans.

Sadly- many of them don't see the issues in the same light as I. They miss the mark and think the issue is there isn't enough Christianity in our society; or that everything the government does violates the Constitution; or that we need to spend more money because we're rich, racist, greedy bastards. The balance is broken and the answer lies in fiscal responsibility on the part of government.

473 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:23:32pm

Stupid science article of the day..

Mysterious tremors detected on San Andreas Fault

"What these mysterious vibrations say about future earthquakes is far from certain. But some think the deep tremors suggest underground stress may be building up faster than expected and may indicate an increased risk of a major temblor."

MYSTERIOUS? That would be like saying "Mysterious molten rock leaking from volcano."

474 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:23:39pm

re: #443 albusteve

Don't be a putz.

475 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:23:41pm

re: #451 Walter L. Newton

Gaze
Starren
Regard fixe
Sguardo fisso
Olhar fixo
Staar

im infatuated with you too

476 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:24:12pm

re: #435 avanti

Since others have admitted it, I'll join in. We joke about our list, and my wife will point out the occasional hottie for me,and I'll do the same. I may say, "yea, she's cute, but too phony", my wife might say something else, just fun conversation.
.

I know a few couples who do that, actually.

477 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:24:24pm

re: #422 iceweasel

Exactly. Trust is what's key.

I think this is partly generational too, but not entirely. Some of my closest friends are male, and those friendships have lasted regardless of whatever romantic relationships either of us have. It's a precondition for our romantic partners that they can handle the friendship.

Trust is key, as are boundaries.

Generational indeed. My son is getting married in the fall, and both he and the bride have many friends of the opposite sex attending the wedding. My son was the "Man of Honor" for his best female friend a few years back.

478 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:24:36pm

re: #474 MandyManners

Don't be a putz.

okay

479 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:24:42pm

re: #438 MandyManners

Back side's better.

Did I just say that?

I thought it.

480 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:24:59pm

re: #473 Walter L. Newton

Stupid science article of the day..

Mysterious tremors detected on San Andreas Fault

"What these mysterious vibrations say about future earthquakes is far from certain. But some think the deep tremors suggest underground stress may be building up faster than expected and may indicate an increased risk of a major temblor."

MYSTERIOUS? That would be like saying "Mysterious molten rock leaking from volcano."

I keep missing you Walter!
Hope you are well....

481 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:25:10pm

re: #469 ArmyWife

Albusteve is a lot of things, but bitter isn't one. He's gone through some stuff, friends.

Fine, I'll quote Mandy and revise my estimation to 'acting like a putz'. :)

482 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:25:16pm
483 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:25:34pm

re: #466 Big Steve

Not a big watcher of the nightly news but did anyone else spot this.....on NBC they had a report on Obama at the G8 and four times, by my count, the on air reporter called him Mr. Obama. Now I don't like the guy but dammit he is the President and he should be referred to as President Obama.

from an etiquette expert:

Expert: Cynthia Lett - 1/2/2009

Question
QUESTION: Is it not improper to call the sitting President of the USA by MR. followed with the surname unless it is Mr. President.

ANSWER: Dear Mr. Terry:
You are correct. A sitting president is called Mr.President or President Bush. He will become Mr.Bush as soon as he leaves office, never to be addressed as President Bush again. Former presidents love to keep hearing their name with President in front of it after they leave office and the press doesn't know any better. If you read the papers, you would think that Bill Clinton has been president for the past eight years as well as President Bush. The first lady is also supposed to be called Mrs. First Lady but I have not heard or seen the press do that correctly either.

Thank you for your question.
Cynthia Lett

484 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:25:46pm

re: #472 Sharmuta

I agree there are areas where it's much worse than education, but being this thread is concerned with the education establishment, I thought I'd try to mention it.

The federal government does have the right to certain powers, the rest belong to the states and the People. For me- it's the monetary component of power that this boils down to. It's my money. As a citizen of this country, I share a portion of my money with the government to support our society and it's ability to function for the betterment of us all. But how much power the government has to take my money, to spend it recklessly, and where they don't have the authority to do so should be of concern to all Americans.

Sadly- many of them don't see the issues in the same light as I. They miss the mark and think the issue is there isn't enough Christianity in our society; or that everything the government does violates the Constitution; or that we need to spend more money because we're rich, racist, greedy bastards. The balance is broken and the answer lies in fiscal responsibility on the part of government.


Ohhh, I'm right with you. I should have been more clear about my point. We, as a nation, could easily afford to send every student to college for free. Yet, we do not.

It is more than a little of a shame.

485 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:26:49pm

re: #474 MandyManners

Don't be a putz.


And today's Yiddish lesson...
putz = penis.

486 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:27:00pm

re: #317 Gus 802

Larger version of Obama at the G8!

I'm gonna save this one.

487 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:27:39pm

re: #471 Killgore Trout

Dude. Give a warning when you link to KOS. I made a vow never to go there.

488 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:27:41pm

re: #486 VioletTiger

I'm gonna save this one.

Did you catch my link? The young woman Obama's leering at there is 16 years old.

489 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:27:46pm

re: #445 iceweasel

Downding for that. Russkilitlover has been happily married for almost 30 years. Who the fuck are you to dare criticise that, or her?

30 years, she's a newly wed, it'll be 40 for me this year.

490 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:27:47pm

re: #485 LudwigVanQuixote

And today's Yiddish lesson...
putz = penis.

the fleshy helm

491 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:28:05pm
492 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:28:23pm

re: #303 reine.de.tout

33 out of 33. If only I did that well when I was actually in school.

493 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:28:35pm

re: #487 Racer X

here, have some lysol. As your daily DU field correspondent, I have loads.

494 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:28:53pm

re: #477 avanti

Generational indeed. My son is getting married in the fall, and both he and the bride have many friends of the opposite sex attending the wedding. My son was the "Man of Honor" for his best female friend a few years back.

I was the 'best woman' for my friend a few years ago. Although we didn't call it that, as of course the bride is his best woman. :)

It's much less of a big deal now than it used to be. In fact, I'd be suspicious of a guy in my general social group who had no female friends. My female friends and I would consider it a bad sign about how he relates to women.

495 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:28:55pm

re: #482 Killgore Trout

Klassy Konservatives: Obama daughter wears t-shirt, Freepers call her ghetto trash

Utter fucking scum. She's a kid. How dare they!

496 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:29:12pm

re: #488 Gus 802

Did you catch my link? The young woman Obama's leering at there is 16 years old.

yes, classy isn't it?...street

497 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:29:14pm

re: #466 Big Steve

Not a big watcher of the nightly news but did anyone else spot this.....on NBC they had a report on Obama at the G8 and four times, by my count, the on air reporter called him Mr. Obama. Now I don't like the guy but dammit he is the President and he should be referred to as President Obama.

At least I can still say it in English...I just won't write it that way...unfortunately, it can't be correctly displayed here.

498 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:29:23pm
499 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:29:28pm

re: #488 Gus 802

Did you catch my link? The young woman Obama's leering at there is 16 years old.

Wow. That kinda changes my thinking.

500 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:29:38pm

re: #488 Gus 802

Did you catch my link? The young woman Obama's leering at there is 16 years old.

Did he know that?

501 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:29:42pm

re: #489 avanti

30 years, she's a newly wed, it'll be 40 for me this year.

If I'd known how long you'd been married I'd have put that in there too!

Congratulations to you and your honey too. :)

502 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:29:43pm

re: #492 Dahveed

33 out of 33. If only I did that well when I was actually in school.

Yes, I learned as I went along.
But you know, the foundation was there.
I think that's not necessarily true for today's young 'uns

503 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:30:00pm

re: #496 albusteve

yes, classy isn't it?...street

Yeah, will be interesting to get Daily Kos' take on this.

//

504 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:30:01pm

re: #486 VioletTiger

I'm gonna save this one.

Personally I get a bigger kick out of Sarkozy's expression

505 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:30:05pm

re: #421 ArchangelMichael

And am going tohave think on this. I come down on the side of the 10th amendment,
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"
The constitution seems to limit the powers of the federal government for good reason: It just might get out of control.

The framers did want Kings or saviors.

506 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:30:10pm

re: #498 buzzsawmonkey

And will continue to be, even during the Hillary Clinton presidency.

hahahaha!
2pts

507 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:30:34pm

re: #495 MandyManners

Utter fucking scum. She's a kid. How dare they!

Malia is putting herself up there for all to see...just like Amy Carter almost 30 years ago.

508 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:30:35pm

re: #488 Gus 802

Did you catch my link? The young woman Obama's leering at there is 16 years old.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkk.

509 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:30:43pm

re: #500 MandyManners

Did he know that?

I don't know. He had to have known they were part of the Junior 8. Junior 8 members are 14 to 17 years old.

510 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:30:58pm

re: #480 HoosierHoops

I keep missing you Walter!
Hope you are well....

Very well. I was on last night, from the Secret Mountain Lair, but I was on an older Viao laptop that occasionally goes into a pattern of shutting down from overheating, so I just logged off (not that there wasn't 3 or 4 other computers on at the moment).

Very well. But the end of next week, I will officially be "headquartered" out of the Secret Mountain Lair. The apartment is almost empty, just my bed, some stuff in the kitchen, my computer (which I am typing on) and a sofa, TV (never on) and bookcase. Everything else is already at the SML.

And of course Maisey the Parrot. That will be the real fun next week. Maisey is going to have 5 new friends, a husky, a chow mixed bread, a dingo mixed breed and TWO KITTY CATS.

Two "country, mountain, outdoor" cats. Can you say "can't we all get along."

511 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:31:03pm

re: #504 Big Steve
Me too. Sarkos face makes me lol. Very European.

512 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:31:04pm

re: #495 MandyManners

Utter fucking scum. She's a kid. How dare they!

And that's the sort of thing that can really devastate a young girl when she's entering the awkward years. Really horrible.

513 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:31:32pm

re: #498 buzzsawmonkey

And will continue to be, even during the Hillary Clinton presidency.

Reminds me of poor Radar on M*A*S*H sometime when he had to deal with Houlihan.

514 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:31:51pm

In fact, I would like very much to make a radical proposal... for education.

Consider the medical board. Why do we have one? I am not asking to be silly.

We have a medical board to ensure that the person cutting on you or prescribing you drugs has a good chance of actually knowing what they are doing. My buddy Al, in the lab next door, is a really smart guy - yet he does not get to try to open a guy's chest. This is because Al has no clue how do such a thing safely.

And who is on the medical board? Is it politicians? Is it people who get elected? No, it is people with medical degrees.

So here is my radical idea.

Suppose we have actual scientists set science standards...

515 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:31:53pm

I don't pick on kids....there are numerous other targets...she's a tadpole, not the keeper

516 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:32:07pm

re: #488 Gus 802

Did you catch my link? The young woman Obama's leering at there is 16 years old.

They should have demanded her birth certificate before they checked out her bum.

517 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:32:08pm

re: #507 Macker

Malia is putting herself up there for all to see...just like Amy Carter almost 30 years ago.

Kids should be off limits.

518 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:32:14pm

re: #491 buzzsawmonkey

"Mr. Obama," "President Obama," and "Mr. President" are all equally correct modes of address.

So "Mr. Fuckhead" is not proper?

519 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:32:43pm

re: #488 Gus 802

Did you catch my link? The young woman Obama's leering at there is 16 years old.


Good grief. He has no astuteness. The pres cannot leer at jail bait.
That photo will make another appearance....in about 3.5 years.

520 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:32:44pm

re: #495 MandyManners

I'm more troubled my the overt racism. One poster links to a picture of a little white girl as a "palate cleanser".

521 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:32:52pm

re: #509 Gus 802

I don't know. He had to have known they were part of the Junior 8. Junior 8 members are 14 to 17 years old.

Oh, well then. Shame on him.

522 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:33:03pm

re: #482 Killgore Trout

Klassy Konservatives: Obama daughter wears t-shirt, Freepers call her ghetto trash

Wow. I can't stomach Free Republic these days. Some of it is so far over the line it's like reading a neo-Nazi site.

523 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:33:07pm
524 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:33:23pm

re: #517 MandyManners

Kids should be off limits.

I agree. It's not their fault who their parents are.

525 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:33:26pm

Israeli strike on Iran would be 'catastrophe': Sarkozy

...another catastrophe? What's the big deal?

526 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:33:38pm

re: #462 reine.de.tout

I agree with you that public education needs to exist, but at the local level; the feds need to be out of it completely, IMO.

And very interesting to see you support vouchers. I haven't quite figured out yet if I think that's the best solution, partly because I would want to see a requirement that students who get the vouchers use them only at schools that meet certain curriculum standards (which of course, would have to be mandated by a governmental entity of some sort otherwise).

There are apparently some fundamentalist Christian schools that teach creationism in lieu of scientific evolution. And of course, there is the fear that some Muslim organizations would establish madrassah-type schools for Muslims, where the primary topic taught would be hate.

That's a really good point. Aside from the Madrassah-type schools, I don't want government mucking around too much in the curricula of a private school. I'd hate to see Catholic schools have to teach birth control, for example.

I strongly support vouchers because it seems like it should be a Liberal position. Urban schools are absolutely failing people and very much contributing to a situation where gains that have been made in the past 30 years are going to start to go away because mainly children of color are being miseducated to the point where they can't succeede in college and move on to professional careers. Vouchers seem to be a good way to induce competition and provide a way to find and nurture talented kids across all race/economic lines.

We're certainly not doing it now, anyway.

I hate the NEA and teacher's unions, too. And I supported the Bush Faith-Based Initiatives program.

In general, I probably see a broader role for government than most of you do, but I'd rather see more of that in the hands of local and state governments - they're easier to watch that way, and it's easier for reformer and outsider candidates to win those races than Federal races.
I'm in the awkward position where the Republican friends I have think I'm a left liberal kook and the Democratic friends I have think I'm a right-wing nutcase.

527 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:33:58pm

re: #485 LudwigVanQuixote

And today's Yiddish lesson...
putz = penis.

I thought Schmecker was a penis?

528 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:34:00pm

I had a t-shirt with a gigantic peace symbol on it when I was her age. I guess I'm ghetto trash too.

529 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:34:05pm

re: #507 Macker

Malia is being put up there, and she is off limits as is little Sasha. She didn't ask for any of this, it has been thrust upon her.

530 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:34:20pm

re: #510 Walter L. Newton

I mailed you today....I included some Chinese paper that is a real mystery to me...Can you help research it? All there is is serial number ID's..
I'd appreciate it!
I need a mountain lair....I'd call it the hoops lair.....

531 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:34:21pm

re: #488 Gus 802

Did you catch my link? The young woman Obama's leering at there is 16 years old.

I went back and looked. Her ass looks older.
Just sayin'

Bad,though.

532 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:34:35pm

re: #512 Sharmuta

And that's the sort of thing that can really devastate a young girl when she's entering the awkward years. Really horrible.

Ok.....my son's 16 year old girl friend just walked by. I showed her the photo and she is still laughing. Her comment..."If it was my ass in the photo I would blow it up to wall size and save it for life."

533 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:34:37pm

"Igor, what's for supper, and don't tell me it's liver or fish"

"liver sir"

'I've eaten a river of liver and an ocean of fish, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"

534 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:34:40pm

A tie-dyed t-shirt. With an enormous freakin' peace symbol.

535 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:34:59pm

re: #502 reine.de.tout

Yes, I learned as I went along.
But you know, the foundation was there.
I think that's not necessarily true for today's young 'uns

I completely agree. I valued my education, I just didn't work at it. But, I find that my education only prepared me for so much. Doing the actual work did so much more.

536 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:35:04pm

re: #504 Big Steve

Personally I get a bigger kick out of Sarkozy's expression

You're right. He's trying to hide the grin. He knows.

537 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:35:07pm

re: #528 Charles

I had a t-shirt with a gigantic peace symbol on it when I was her age. I guess I'm ghetto trash too.

and that was back when a peace sign meant something!

538 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:35:35pm
539 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:35:37pm

re: #468 ArchangelMichael

Round table discussion with Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell, Peter Schiff, and Michael Badnarik.

I think the after dinner entertainment is a seance to communicate with Aaron Russo and get his input on the "Audit the Fed" bill.

OMG, talk about a blast from the past. I worked with the LNC to try and get Russo to run for governor of NV back when I was a Libertarian.

He was actually a really nice guy. A bit odd, but a nice guy. I was sorry to hear that he'd died.

540 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:35:51pm

re: #522 Charles

Wow. I can't stomach Free Republic these days. Some of it is so far over the line it's like reading a neo-Nazi site.

And it burns my a$$ to have to agree with Kos being outraged.

541 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:35:51pm

re: #528 Charles

I had a t-shirt with a gigantic peace symbol on it when I was her age. I guess I'm ghetto trash too.

we'll decide when you grow up....

542 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:35:55pm

re: #522 Charles

Stormfront had a thread on it too. Aside from a few epithets the comments were pretty much identical. I scrolled through the Freeper thread and didn't notice a single person objecting the the overt racism.

543 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:36:09pm

re: #532 Big Steve

Girls can be quite nasty to each other.

544 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:36:21pm

re: #534 Charles

A tie-dyed t-shirt. With an enormous freakin' peace symbol.

And a pony tail at that point?

545 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:36:34pm

re: #517 MandyManners

Kids should be off limits.

Ceteris Paribus, I agree. That said...why did she put on that CND peace t-shirt?

546 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:36:43pm

re: #522 Charles

Wow. I can't stomach Free Republic these days. Some of it is so far over the line it's like reading a neo-Nazi site.

It's seems to be a fact, that a socialist president, who is ruining the country, talking over businesses. making the citizens beholden to the federal government, it seems to be a fact that this sort of president will bring the real nut cases out of the woodwork.

And no, I'm not blaming Obama for the nuts. But these sort of nuts have been around for years, this sort of president, this sort of government offers them the opportunity to shine.

547 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:36:53pm

re: #512 Sharmuta

And that's the sort of thing that can really devastate a young girl when she's entering the awkward years. Really horrible.

Yes, but I will say this:
As much as I loathe Obama and Michelle, when I see those two girls in public, their confident behavior and demeanor seem to indicate to me they've been the recipient of some good parenting. So hopefully she won't be too terribly bothered, if she even sees it.

548 Racer X  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:37:04pm

re: #482 Killgore Trout

Klassy Konservatives: Obama daughter wears t-shirt, Freepers call her ghetto trash

Thats fucked up (yes I broke my rule and went and looked). It bothers me that the Freepers are posting that disgusting shit.

It also bothers me that many will point and say exactly what you just did - "Klassy Konservatives" as a knock on those of us to the right. I'm nothing like that, and I honestly do not know anyone like that.

Freepers are way out on the fringe.

549 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:37:05pm

re: #520 Killgore Trout

I'm more troubled my the overt racism. One poster links to a picture of a little white girl as a "palate cleanser".

That she's a little girl makes the racism all the more despicable.

As for refering to a litle girl as a "palate cleanser", that squicks me out on another level.

550 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:37:08pm
551 LionofDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:37:15pm

re: #517 MandyManners

Would she be off-limits if she chose to wear a t-shirt with a slogan like "Universal Health Care Now!" or "Keep Abortion Legal?" At what point does fashion become a political statement? Just questions to ponder....

552 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:37:49pm

re: #509 Gus 802

I don't know. He had to have known they were part of the Junior 8. Junior 8 members are 14 to 17 years old.

OMG, if he knew that and still hawked a look.....
WTF

553 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:37:51pm

re: #505 BatGuano

I agree but the problem is, like I said, we've been "doing it wrong" for so long that all of a sudden actually getting serious about original intent and the 10th Amendment might cause a civil war. We've been conveniently looking the other way for so long that we've become used to a lot of things (some good, some awful) that are clearly above and beyond what the government is doing. Some people will likely cling to them to death and do all kinds of logical gymnastics to find constitutional authority for their pet projects.

The Federal Reserve, the "New Deal", the "Great Society", affirmative action, the Department of Education, just to name a tiny few, all should have required constitutional amendments.

554 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:38:01pm

re: #532 Big Steve

Ok.....my son's 16 year old girl friend just walked by. I showed her the photo and she is still laughing. Her comment..."If it was my ass in the photo I would blow it up to wall size and save it for life."

If she keeps eating McDonalds it will happen
/

555 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:38:26pm

re: #530 HoosierHoops

I mailed you today....I included some Chinese paper that is a real mystery to me...Can you help research it? All there is is serial number ID's..
I'd appreciate it!
I need a mountain lair....I'd call it the hoops lair.....

The bottom line about the Secret Mountain Lair is the fact that the love of my life lives there. That's what make it nice.

556 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:38:26pm

re: #533 albusteve

"Igor, what's for supper, and don't tell me it's liver or fish"

"liver sir"

'I've eaten a river of liver and an ocean of fish, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"

"WE WANT SOMETHING ELSE! WE WANT SOMETHING ELSE!"

557 sagehen  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:38:50pm

re: #251 sattv4u2


7 months after Kerry lost the 2004 election, tell me ONE person who would have told you Obama would be the Dem nominee for 2008

Thousands would have told you that. Maybe tens of thousands. That convention speech was a barn-burner.

558 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:38:57pm

re: #551 LionofDixon

Would she be off-limits if she chose to wear a t-shirt with a slogan like "Universal Health Care Now!" or "Keep Abortion Legal?" At what point does fashion become a political statement? Just questions to ponder....

it does not matter...she is a child first and foremost

559 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:39:23pm

re: #545 Macker

Ceteris Paribus, I agree. That said...why did she put on that CND peace t-shirt?

What's CND?

560 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:39:27pm

re: #551 LionofDixon

When she is 18. I'd be upset at her parents over something like that, but not the little girl.

I have a peace sign t-shirt. It says "Peace through Superior Fire Power" on the back of it. Sign me up as Right Wing Ghetto Trash.

561 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:39:45pm

re: #556 MandyManners

"WE WANT SOMETHING ELSE! WE WANT SOMETHING ELSE!"

FOOD FIGHT!

562 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:39:47pm

re: #534 Charles

A tie-dyed t-shirt. With an enormous freakin' peace symbol.

There exist photos of me in similar attire. I couldn't get the owners to burn them. They are now a source of comedy on Facebook for my friends from High School.

563 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:39:55pm
564 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:39:56pm

re: #556 MandyManners

"WE WANT SOMETHING ELSE! WE WANT SOMETHING ELSE!"

how bout MASHed Potatos

565 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:40:22pm

re: #534 Charles

A tie-dyed t-shirt. With an enormous freakin' peace symbol.

You know that quote is going to make an appearance on a stalker site:
BREAKING! CHARLES ADMITS HE'S A LIBERAL TREE-HUGGING PEACE-LOVING HIPPIE!

566 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:40:26pm

re: #560 ArmyWife

When she is 18. I'd be upset at her parents over something like that, but not the little girl.

I have a peace sign t-shirt. It says "Peace through Superior Fire Power" on the back of it. Sign me up as Right Wing Ghetto Trash.

Ok, I did. Membership card in the mail to you :)

567 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:40:29pm

re: #552 SasquatchOnSteroids

OMG, if he knew that and still hawked a look.....
WTF

We were all leering at her bum too, it's worth noting. Looks like the junior G8 were mingling with the others from the photo.

568 Bloodnok  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:40:29pm

re: #551 LionofDixon

Would she be off-limits if she chose to wear a t-shirt with a slogan like "Universal Health Care Now!" or "Keep Abortion Legal?" At what point does fashion become a political statement? Just questions to ponder....

Why does anyone have to care what she wears -political or not?

569 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:40:53pm

re: #559 MandyManners

What's CND?

I believe it's Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

570 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:41:04pm

re: #551 LionofDixon

Would she be off-limits if she chose to wear a t-shirt with a slogan like "Universal Health Care Now!" or "Keep Abortion Legal?" At what point does fashion become a political statement? Just questions to ponder....

When she's an adult.

But, the Freepers are far more objectionable than some little kid wearing a shirt.

571 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:41:08pm

re: #538 buzzsawmonkey

BTW, VegasRick: your "while my 401K gently weeps" has been expanded in the prior thread.

Excellent Buzz, a masterpiece!

572 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:41:15pm

re: #553 ArchangelMichael

We've been conveniently looking the other way for so long that we've become used to a lot of things (some good, some awful) that are clearly above and beyond what the government is should be doing.

PIMF

573 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:41:25pm

re: #559 MandyManners

What's CND?

Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

574 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:41:33pm

re: #526 ~Fianna

That's a really good point. Aside from the Madrassah-type schools, I don't want government mucking around too much in the curricula of a private school. I'd hate to see Catholic schools have to teach birth control, for example.

I strongly support vouchers because it seems like it should be a Liberal position. Urban schools are absolutely failing people and very much contributing to a situation where gains that have been made in the past 30 years are going to start to go away because mainly children of color are being miseducated to the point where they can't succeede in college and move on to professional careers. Vouchers seem to be a good way to induce competition and provide a way to find and nurture talented kids across all race/economic lines.

We're certainly not doing it now, anyway.

I hate the NEA and teacher's unions, too. And I supported the Bush Faith-Based Initiatives program.

In general, I probably see a broader role for government than most of you do, but I'd rather see more of that in the hands of local and state governments - they're easier to watch that way, and it's easier for reformer and outsider candidates to win those races than Federal races.
I'm in the awkward position where the Republican friends I have think I'm a left liberal kook and the Democratic friends I have think I'm a right-wing nutcase.

Yes, voucher support should be a "liberal" position, and probably it's the thing that makes the best sense right now.

I would prefer to see the federal government out, with more control going to local entities. Of course, then we're faced with the situation such as the one in Texas - creationists in charge. I'm at a loss to figure that one out.

btw - my daughter attended Catholic school; they offered a "human sex and sexuality" course as part of their religion classes; and they were taught about birth control. Of course, they were also taught about the Church's position on birth control. But it's a mistake to think that Catholic kids are not taught about birth control. They are.

575 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:41:52pm

re: #563 buzzsawmonkey

Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

Oh.

576 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:42:00pm
577 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:42:07pm

re: #571 VegasRick

Excellent Buzz, a masterpiece!

one of his best I agree

578 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:42:23pm

re: #547 reine.de.tout

Yes, but I will say this:
As much as I loathe Obama and Michelle, when I see those two girls in public, their confident behavior and demeanor seem to indicate to me they've been the recipient of some good parenting. So hopefully she won't be too terribly bothered, if she even sees it.

I agree. The Obama girls seem like nice young ladies. I haven't seen anything about them that indicates they are spoiled or ill-mannered, so their parents must be doing something right. I doubt Malia will be subjected to the rantings of Freepers, but it's more the cultural misogyny I see and keep mentioning, where attacks like that can be quite harmful to a woman's psyche. It's disgusting they're picking on a child in the first place, but add that it's a girl child and they're picking on her looks (where women feel vulnerable) and it's just another dimension of gross.

579 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:42:42pm

re: #545 Macker

Ceteris Paribus, I agree. That said...why did she put on that CND peace t-shirt?

Because kids her age think it's fashion, and they don't have any idea about any political meanings. My 11 yr old niece has tons of peace sign stuff- and her parents are complete republicans.

580 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:42:48pm

Don't care what the kid was wearing but how does Michelle rate a 6 grand purse? Not even a purse, just a clutch bag. And how can a small purse cost that much anyway?

581 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:43:00pm

re: #495 MandyManners

Utter fucking scum. She's a kid. How dare they!

OK, that t-shirt is not a big deal.

I'm pleased to see she was not wearing a keffiyeh, as was all the rage for young 'uns recently.

582 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:43:07pm

re: #561 albusteve

FOOD FIGHT!

Now I'm thinking about Blutarsky. A giant zit.

583 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:43:10pm

re: #539 ~Fianna

OMG, talk about a blast from the past. I worked with the LNC to try and get Russo to run for governor of NV back when I was a Libertarian.

He was actually a really nice guy. A bit odd, but a nice guy. I was sorry to hear that he'd died.

Greetings fellow former Libertarian.

584 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:44:11pm

re: #564 Big Steve

how bout MASHed Potatos

Can't stand the things.

585 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:44:25pm

re: #531 SasquatchOnSteroids

I went back and looked. Her ass looks older.
Just sayin'

Bad,though.


At the 4th of July cookout, someone commented on hot one gal was, turned out a 15 year old daughter of a guest. Sadly, I peeked too.

586 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:44:35pm

re: #578 Sharmuta

I've never known a black person who hasn't experienced racism. The girls are probably already used to this sort of thing, it's part of life. They seem well adjusted and happy. They'll be just fine.

587 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:45:01pm

I would like to see BO temper his children's public exposure somewhat at this point....too many loonies

588 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:45:02pm

re: #580 Big Steve

Don't care what the kid was wearing but how does Michelle rate a 6 grand purse? Not even a purse, just a clutch bag. And how can a small purse cost that much anyway?

Alligator.

589 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:45:12pm

Well who would've guessed this:

Worst violence since US pullback hits Iraq

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

590 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:45:38pm

re: #558 albusteve

Would your response be the same if the Palins had put an NRA "From my cold dead hands..." t-shirt on Trig at the convention? Imagine how the left would have howled had Bristol or another Palin child worn a "Jesus Saves" or "Christians Rock" t-shirt during the campaign, let alone to a foreign country.

I guess my point is, did she unknowingly wear it because it was a cool design, or was she put up it by adults, or because she herself wanted to make some sort of statement?

591 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:45:48pm

re: #585 avanti

At the 4th of July cookout, someone commented on hot one gal was, turned out a 15 year old daughter of a guest. Sadly, I peeked too.

It's the steroids in the milk, I tells ya.

592 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:45:51pm

re: #581 reine.de.tout

OK, that t-shirt is not a big deal.

I'm pleased to see she was not wearing a keffiyeh, as was all the rage for young 'uns recently.

I would hope WAB wouldn't let her wear one.

593 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:45:55pm

re: #588 MandyManners

Alligator.

Big Steve must not have a woman in his life who fancies designer handbags.

594 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:46:39pm

re: #585 avanti

One of Mr. Armywife's soldiers was talking about a really hot girl at a Meddac picnic. Turns out, it was Mr. Armywife's daughter. Oh the poor soldier when he realized he was oogling the 1SG's daughter.

595 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:46:47pm

re: #587 albusteve

I would like to see BO temper his children's public exposure somewhat at this point....too many loonies

I'm sure they're protected.

596 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:46:59pm

re: #588 MandyManners

Alligator.

Alligator? I caught a five foot one in my pool a few years back. They are a nuisance around here. Animal control came, wrapped its mouth with duct tape and hauled it off. Little did I realize I could have clubbed it, skinned it, and paid for the kids college education.

597 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:47:15pm

re: #592 MandyManners

I would hope WAB wouldn't let her wear one.

Bingo!

598 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:47:28pm

re: #578 Sharmuta

I agree. The Obama girls seem like nice young ladies. I haven't seen anything about them that indicates they are spoiled or ill-mannered, so their parents must be doing something right. I doubt Malia will be subjected to the rantings of Freepers, but it's more the cultural misogyny I see and keep mentioning, where attacks like that can be quite harmful to a woman's psyche. It's disgusting they're picking on a child in the first place, but add that it's a girl child and they're picking on her looks (where women feel vulnerable) and it's just another dimension of gross.

Just saw the first lady talking about "Obama" camp at the White House. No TV, no internet until after dinner for the girls. I wish I'd done that for my son, the video gamer.

599 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:47:36pm

re: #568 Bloodnok

So, what you are saying is that we shouldn't care if the President's daughter wears a t-shirt that says "America Sucks" or "Death to America"? It just makes no difference whatsoever....?

600 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:48:12pm

re: #596 Big Steve

Alligator? I caught a five foot one in my pool a few years back. They are a nuisance around here. Animal control came, wrapped its mouth with duct tape and hauled it off. Little did I realize I could have clubbed it, skinned it, and paid for the kids college education.

Next time.

601 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:48:12pm

Sorry to stop by so infrequently,

But I have to run and see my Lizard Queen, She who must be obeyed...

Peace out!

Ohhh and one other thing, before CND mutated, the idea that the world would be better without people pointing city killer nukes at each other, and ocaisionally threatenting to use them, was a sound one.

The peace sign actually contains all the letters of "nuclear disarmament."

602 Bloodnok  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:48:22pm

re: #599 LionOfDixon

So, what you are saying is that we shouldn't care if the President's daughter wears a t-shirt that says "America Sucks" or "Death to America"? It just makes no difference whatsoever....?

Where did the goalposts go?

603 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:48:31pm

re: #590 LionOfDixon

Would your response be the same if the Palins had put an NRA "From my cold dead hands..." t-shirt on Trig at the convention? Imagine how the left would have howled had Bristol or another Palin child worn a "Jesus Saves" or "Christians Rock" t-shirt during the campaign, let alone to a foreign country.

I guess my point is, did she unknowingly wear it because it was a cool design, or was she put up it by adults, or because she herself wanted to make some sort of statement?

yes...and further eleven year olds don't make political statements even when the dad is president...draw the line and stick to it

604 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:48:59pm

re: #602 Bloodnok

They were sucked into the hypothetical outrage abyss.

605 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:49:01pm

re: #589 ArmyWife

Well who would've guessed this:

Worst violence since US pullback hits Iraq

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

606 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:49:08pm

re: #602 Bloodnok

Where did the goalposts go?

Haha-- nok, you killed me with that one. :)

607 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:49:20pm

re: #585 avanti

At the 4th of July cookout, someone commented on hot one gal was, turned out a 15 year old daughter of a guest. Sadly, I peeked too.


Watch out... Chris Hansen might read that...

608 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:49:30pm

re: #574 reine.de.tout

Yes, voucher support should be a "liberal" position, and probably it's the thing that makes the best sense right now.

I would prefer to see the federal government out, with more control going to local entities. Of course, then we're faced with the situation such as the one in Texas - creationists in charge. I'm at a loss to figure that one out.

btw - my daughter attended Catholic school; they offered a "human sex and sexuality" course as part of their religion classes; and they were taught about birth control. Of course, they were also taught about the Church's position on birth control. But it's a mistake to think that Catholic kids are not taught about birth control. They are.

I wonder if that's a Diocese-based decision? Or if it's changed since I knew kids in Catholic school. I was raised RC, but sent to a secular private school. I graduated in '93 and I know that the kids who were my age who went to Catholic school didn't get BC taught during health class.

I'm not sure what we're going to do with the politicization of religious views like the creationists on the school board and the Christian Identity movement. It's making me and my husband very, very uncomfortable. He was raised as a Jew and the shooting at the Holocaust museum was hard for him. Vegas has always had a Nazi Skinhead problem (one of my husband's friends was killed by skinheads when they were in high school) and it's just getting worse and worse here now.

There's so much badcrazy going on in this country on both sides that I'm scared to death that the idiots are going to ruin it for the rest of us.

609 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:49:32pm

re: #598 avanti

Just saw the first lady talking about "Obama" camp at the White House. No TV, no internet until after dinner for the girls. I wish I'd done that for my son, the video gamer.

President denies daughters access to public information, I can see the headlines at Pams Place.

610 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:49:49pm

re: #580 Big Steve

Don't care what the kid was wearing but how does Michelle rate a 6 grand purse? Not even a purse, just a clutch bag. And how can a small purse cost that much anyway?

It's a $900 purse, and for a millionaire, not that extravagant.

611 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:49:53pm

re: #599 LionOfDixon

You are playing "what if". She didn't. She wore a t-shirt with a peace sign on it. You can get them at Target, Walmart, Justice for Pete's sake. This is NOT worthy of disgust.

612 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:50:17pm

Ok mean it now, gotta go...

613 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:50:17pm

re: #593 reine.de.tout

Big Steve must not have a woman in his life who fancies designer handbags.

Rundgren's better.

614 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:50:35pm

re: #578 Sharmuta

I agree. The Obama girls seem like nice young ladies. I haven't seen anything about them that indicates they are spoiled or ill-mannered, so their parents must be doing something right. I doubt Malia will be subjected to the rantings of Freepers, but it's more the cultural misogyny I see and keep mentioning, where attacks like that can be quite harmful to a woman's psyche. It's disgusting they're picking on a child in the first place, but add that it's a girl child and they're picking on her looks (where women feel vulnerable) and it's just another dimension of gross.

I've started referring to this kind of cultural misogyny as the invisible burka. It does seem to me like it's getting worse lately.

Great post.

615 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:50:38pm

re: #598 avanti

Just saw the first lady talking about "Obama" camp at the White House. No TV, no internet until after dinner for the girls. I wish I'd done that for my son, the video gamer.

I wish you had too....

616 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:50:39pm

re: #586 Killgore Trout

I've never known a black person who hasn't experienced racism. The girls are probably already used to this sort of thing, it's part of life. They seem well adjusted and happy. They'll be just fine.

True- I think she won't even know about this anyways. But for me- the issue of misogyny won't improve without public discussion.

Many people know I think Palin will never be president because of cultural misogyny. It's upsetting to some when I say this. Some might not even know what I mean when I say it. Well- this is an example. It's not cool to be ripping on the appearance of a young girl in the spotlight due to no intentions of her own- it's misogynistic. And for others to sit back and not see anything wrong with this sort of attack is cultural misogyny.

617 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:50:43pm

re: #604 jaunte

They were sucked into the hypothetical outrage abyss.

The Outrage abyss: Outrage compacted in such density that nothing can escape.

618 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:50:44pm

re: #610 avanti

It's a $900 purse, and for a millionaire, not that extravagant.

That makes all the difference in the world, thanks for clearing that up Avanti.

619 J.S.  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:51:18pm

re: #546 Walter L. Newton

I think the white supremacists may be attempting to make some kind of come back..(and it's not just in the United States)...The other day someone in British Columbia posted a YouTube video (3 white guys were beating up on a Black person), there have been arrests, and the police are considering whether or not to categorize it as a hate crime...(btw, until a week or so ago, I'd never heard or read of "Free Republic"...not a website I'd frequent, along with Stormfront...but, I think there is some sort of up-tick in these vile groups...)

620 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:51:39pm

re: #607 LudwigVanQuixote

Nice to see you back here.

621 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:51:53pm

re: #596 Big Steve

Alligator? I caught a five foot one in my pool a few years back. They are a nuisance around here. Animal control came, wrapped its mouth with duct tape and hauled it off. Little did I realize I could have clubbed it, skinned it, and paid for the kids college education.

The White House claimed it wasn't an alligator bag and that it cost less than $1,000.00 but, the maker of the bag insisted it was one of his and that it did cost $6,000.00.

622 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:51:58pm
623 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:52:02pm

re: #610 avanti

It was $6000. That's extravegant no matter who you are, but most especially when you trot yourself out as one of the little people who shops at Pottery Barn for furniture and stuff.

624 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:52:12pm

re: #557 sagehen

Thousands would have told you that. Maybe tens of thousands. That convention speech was a barn-burner.

Your opinion of Obama's speeches carries no weight since I read this:

Even if poetry translations miss some of the nuance... Obama has said in the past that he studied black preachers because he has a thing for the rhythm of public speaking (which is also apparent in his own speeches).

Unless you were just missing the sarc tag....

625 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:52:18pm

re: #596 Big Steve

Alligator? I caught a five foot one in my pool a few years back. They are a nuisance around here. Animal control came, wrapped its mouth with duct tape and hauled it off. Little did I realize I could have clubbed it, skinned it, and paid for the kids college education.

So you think WAB had her daughter wear it?

626 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:52:39pm

re: #583 ArchangelMichael

Greetings fellow former Libertarian.

It was an interesting place to be. I was very active when I first moved to NV, but I got frustrated by a. the crazy that won't go away and b. the inability of everyone to drop Libertarian purity tests and actually try and get people elected.

627 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:52:41pm

re: #618 Walter L. Newton

That makes all the difference in the world, thanks for clearing that up Avanti.

that's alot of bowls of soup...pure elitism....racial payback

628 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:52:41pm

re: #553 ArchangelMichael


"But he never would believe that Providence had sent a few men into the world, ready booted and spurred to ride, and millions ready saddled and bridled to be ridden."

There are too many Americans who believe that we are "saddled and bridled"
and they raise no objection to it, because , "Mankind are more disposed to suffer while Evils are sufferable".
I suppose I want a little outrage from our elected representatives.

629 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:52:47pm

re: #593 reine.de.tout

Big Steve must not have a woman in his life who fancies designer handbags.

Nah...she has one purse and it is about the size of a gym bag. But true story here, when Mrs Big Steve and I were first married we were invited to an old friend's wedding in LA. The husband was connected in the movie business. So the reception was at some swanky place in Pacific Palisades. We, being young rubes from Texas, pretty much wall-flowered it. However when the buffet was served I got in line and the young woman in front of me had a striking sequined dress on. So, just being friendly, I commented to her that her dress was "real purty".....and she spun around, gave me a look like I was dirt, and said "It should, it cost 30,000". I slunk back to Mrs Big Steve and related the story. I didn't even know a dress could possibly cost that much. Mrs Big Steve suggested next time I see the dress and its owner that I should spill a drink on her.

630 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:54:09pm

I think it's funny the two people I know who have read Woman's Inhumanity to Woman are the ones who get what I'm saying.

631 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:54:38pm

re: #616 Sharmuta

True- I think she won't even know about this anyways. But for me- the issue of misogyny won't improve without public discussion.

Many people know I think Palin will never be president because of cultural misogyny. It's upsetting to some when I say this. Some might not even know what I mean when I say it. Well- this is an example. It's not cool to be ripping on the appearance of a young girl in the spotlight due to no intentions of her own- it's misogynistic. And for others to sit back and not see anything wrong with this sort of attack is cultural misogyny.

They'd be ripping on the child if it were a boy.

632 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:54:47pm

It was a little extravagance to bring along on the trip, so while Obama is telling everyone "Americans are no better than you," Michelle is telling them,"We're better than you."

633 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:54:54pm

re: #629 Big Steve

So, just being friendly, I commented to her that her dress was "real purty".....and she spun around, gave me a look like I was dirt, and said "It should, it cost 30,000".

How disgustingly rude of her, both for attacking you when you were offering a compliment, and for needing to inform you and everyone in earshot what her dress cost.

More proof, as if it were needed, that money doesn't buy manners.

634 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:55:21pm

re: #614 ~Fianna

I've started referring to this kind of cultural misogyny as the invisible burka. It does seem to me like it's getting worse lately.

Great post.

That's an interesting metaphor for it- the invisible burqa.... Thanks- I'll think upon that more.

635 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:56:00pm

re: #629 Big Steve

Nah...she has one purse and it is about the size of a gym bag. But true story here, when Mrs Big Steve and I were first married we were invited to an old friend's wedding in LA. The husband was connected in the movie business. So the reception was at some swanky place in Pacific Palisades. We, being young rubes from Texas, pretty much wall-flowered it. However when the buffet was served I got in line and the young woman in front of me had a striking sequined dress on. So, just being friendly, I commented to her that her dress was "real purty".....and she spun around, gave me a look like I was dirt, and said "It should, it cost 30,000". I slunk back to Mrs Big Steve and related the story. I didn't even know a dress could possibly cost that much. Mrs Big Steve suggested next time I see the dress and its owner that I should spill a drink on her.

Always strike up small talk first then comment on how beautiful the dress is..
I need to write a book...:)

636 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:56:08pm

re: #622 buzzsawmonkey

S'funny...until the ol' waistline expanded, I had an alligator belt that I'd bought way back in high school. Back then, it was maybe ten bucks--just another leather.

Now, granted, that was back in the era when you could live (with a roommate, anyway) in an apartment if you earned $100 a week ($85 after taxes), so $10 was not an utterly insignificant amount of money (though a record album cost around $5). But alligator, while a little more expensive than ordinary leather, was not stratospherically expensive.

Then alligator was outlawed for a while--endangered species, yadda yadda--and became costly as hell. After about 10 or 15 years, they started multiplying like...alligators, and are now considered major pests in some areas. Yet the price has not dropped, even though killing them is now legal again.

I've never known the price of any article of clothing or accessory to drop. Food doesn't decrease in price after gas goes down.

637 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:56:18pm

re: #594 ArmyWife

One of Mr. Armywife's soldiers was talking about a really hot girl at a Meddac picnic. Turns out, it was Mr. Armywife's daughter. Oh the poor soldier when he realized he was oogling the 1SG's daughter.

I have mixed feeling about the age issue. I read a story where a guy had sex with a 16 year old, that said she was 19 and looked it. He found out she was doing the same with numerous older men and he called her parents and was charged with statutory rape. Today, I'd bet you almost need a birth certificate before making a move.

638 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:56:55pm

re: #623 ArmyWife

It was $6000. That's extravegant no matter who you are, but most especially when you trot yourself out as one of the little people who shops at Pottery Barn for furniture and stuff.

Remember how she mocked the stimulus checks as being enough for a pair of earrings?

639 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:57:05pm

re: #471 Killgore Trout

Plenty of Persian hotties: Tehran Street Photos – “The Genie is Out of the Bottle”

My favorite

My fave photos of protesting Muslim women are any in which I can see their hair.

btw: that girl who was getting the Obambi gaze-eye had some serious hair rays of her own going on!

640 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:57:48pm

re: #602 Bloodnok

Don't get me wrong, here. I think the racial bent of some of the Freepers comments are deplorable. And I am not picking on a kid, because I do believe that by and large, they are off limits.

Having said that, I wonder if she were put up to it by someone.....it does seem rather coincidental considering the time, place and discussions regarding nuclear non-proliferation. And I do believe that bright 11 year olds make political (although not always intelligent) political statements all the time. How many Obama internet ads did we see with children talking about hope and change? I remember a few.

641 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:58:08pm

re: #637 avanti

You still don't oogle the 1SG's daughter when you are a PFC, and the 1SG is 6'3, and said daughter is his first born baby girl.

642 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:58:09pm

re: #637 avanti

I have mixed feeling about the age issue. I read a story where a guy had sex with a 16 year old, that said she was 19 and looked it. He found out she was doing the same with numerous older men and he called her parents and was charged with statutory rape. Today, I'd bet you almost need a birth certificate before making a move.

And I'll bet the parents were using that to lure in those older men for a big cash payout!

643 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:58:10pm

re: #630 Sharmuta

I think it's funny the two people I know who have read Woman's Inhumanity to Woman are the ones who get what I'm saying.

I've never read it but, I get you.

644 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:58:12pm

re: #637 avanti

I have mixed feeling about the age issue. I read a story where a guy had sex with a 16 year old, that said she was 19 and looked it. He found out she was doing the same with numerous older men and he called her parents and was charged with statutory rape. Today, I'd bet you almost need a birth certificate before making a move.

Ok, I can't even believe that you would have one second of thought about the age issue, other then thinking UNDERAGE GIRLS ARE OFF LIMITS. Period. There should be NO OTHER THOUGHT.

Sick.

645 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:58:45pm

re: #638 MandyManners

She is something else. I think I'd get in a cat fight with her about 15 minutes in. Maybe 10.

646 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:58:47pm

re: #630 Sharmuta

I think it's funny the two people I know who have read Woman's Inhumanity to Woman are the ones who get what I'm saying.

I think that's because the Chesler book can come as a real eyeopener to people who had doubts about just how prevalent misogyny and sexism are. Until one understands that the entire system involves women playing along with it, it's possible for some to not see just how endemic it is within the culture. And Chesler as far as I know has made the point that women can be misogynistic and sexist better than anyone else has -- and certainly before others had.

647 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:58:54pm

re: #632 Noam Sayin'

It was a little extravagance to bring along on the trip, so while Obama is telling everyone "Americans are no better than you," Michelle is telling them,"We're better than you."

I think she has some self-esteem problems.

648 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:59:17pm
and that government should be guided by a “biblical litmus test.” She endorses a belief system that requires “any person desiring to govern have a sincere knowledge and appreciation for the Word of God in order to rightly govern.”

Unconstitutional per Article VI, last paragraph, US Constitution

649 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:59:20pm
650 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 5:59:43pm

Michelle is bitter.

She is owed.

Pay up, bitches.

651 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:00:11pm

re: #645 ArmyWife

She is something else. I think I'd get in a cat fight with her about 15 minutes in. Maybe 10.

*purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

652 Bloodnok  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:00:41pm

re: #640 LionOfDixon

Don't get me wrong, here. I think the racial bent of some of the Freepers comments are deplorable. And I am not picking on a kid, because I do believe that by and large, they are off limits.

Having said that, I wonder if she were put up to it by someone.....it does seem rather coincidental considering the time, place and discussions regarding nuclear non-proliferation. And I do believe that bright 11 year olds make political (although not always intelligent) political statements all the time. How many Obama internet ads did we see with children talking about hope and change? I remember a few.

I think that's a stretch. It's what kids wear.

653 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:00:58pm

re: #649 buzzsawmonkey

I want to go out to dinner with you so badly. I need waterproof mascara that night! I'm stealing that word from you, but at least I'm being honest about it!

654 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:01:04pm

re: #649 buzzsawmonkey

I was just observing that alligator needn't be--didn't used to be--supercalifragilisticextradoublepricey.

As to the rest of your post, food may not decrease in price after gas goes down, but gas often increases after food goes down. At least that has been my experience.

I wonder if tortoise shell will ever be used again.

655 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:01:10pm

re: #618 Walter L. Newton

That makes all the difference in the world, thanks for clearing that up Avanti.

Look, your a frigging conservative, and should get that a person that earns good money has a right to spend it as they like.
On one hand the right bitches that she looks like crap because she shops off the rack, on the other hand, she gets shit for buying fancy.

656 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:01:30pm

re: #631 MandyManners

They'd be ripping on the child if it were a boy.

I don't know if they would. It's possible. But boys don't feel the same sense about their personal appearance as girls do. Some of it actually deals with evolution, actually. Socially, male apes have harems. The females compete for limited men. In humans, women do the same, so the level of attractiveness of a female means she'll have a better chance at mating. So women and men both value the appearance of females- it's our nature. To attack a woman for her looks is much more damaging psychologically than doing it to a man.

657 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:02:00pm
658 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:03:18pm
659 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:03:24pm

re: #656 Sharmuta

I don't know if they would. It's possible. But boys don't feel the same sense about their personal appearance as girls do. Some of it actually deals with evolution, actually. Socially, male apes have harems. The females compete for limited men. In humans, women do the same, so the level of attractiveness of a female means she'll have a better chance at mating. So women and men both value the appearance of females- it's our nature. To attack a woman for her looks is much more damaging psychologically than doing it to a man.

I get what you're saying. However, I don't see her being attacked for her looks but for the poltical statement she might or might not be making with her shirt.

660 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:03:25pm

re: #641 ArmyWife

You still don't oogle the 1SG's daughter when you are a PFC, and the 1SG is 6'3, and said daughter is his first born baby girl.

I agree, probably not a good idea at any age.

661 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:03:25pm

re: #648 Ojoe

Unconstitutional per Article VI, last paragraph, US Constitution

It is absolutely amazing that a person could say something so blatantly unconstitutional, as if it was some kind of mainstream belief or legitimately debatable alternate interpretation of the Constitution and then be elected to anything beyond student body president at a evangelical protestant elementary school.

663 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:03:56pm

re: #657 buzzsawmonkey

I've never read Woman's Inhumanity to Woman, but I've watched The Women, which kind of blows that whole "sisterhood" thing to pieces.

One of the best movies ever.

664 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:03:57pm

re: #652 Bloodnok

Fair enough...I am not that hip on teenage girls' fashions...although I hear that Che Guevara and Mao made a recent comeback on t-shirts. Is Pol Pot next?

665 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:04:08pm
666 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:04:11pm

re: #646 iceweasel

I think that's because the Chesler book can come as a real eyeopener to people who had doubts about just how prevalent misogyny and sexism are. Until one understands that the entire system involves women playing along with it, it's possible for some to not see just how endemic it is within the culture. And Chesler as far as I know has made the point that women can be misogynistic and sexist better than anyone else has -- and certainly before others had.

So I have a question? How does a man make a legitimate criticism of a woman? Because I see that men hack away brutally at other men and we EXPECT the other men to be able to either take it or punch our lights out. But either is a reasonable response. So when my teenage son ripped the bumper off his car lead footing it out of the garage, I called him a "dumb ass" and his feelings were not hurt. So how does a man rip on a woman? If he treats her like he would a man, he is a creepy misogynist. However if he tones it down, he is being condescending.

667 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:04:13pm

re: #655 avanti

She COULD buy whatever she wanted if the STOPPED lecturing about sharing wealth and doing more with less, etc. You don't get it both ways. EVER.

668 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:04:37pm

re: #656 Sharmuta

Club for ugly people
Club dei brutti

669 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:05:19pm

re: #665 buzzsawmonkey

The last time I was in Paris (how pretentious is that?) I noted that there was a shop called "Aux Tortues" which was turtles all the way down. You could get genuine tortoiseshell eyeglasses there, and lots of other tortoiseshell stuff.

I thought the stuff was outlawed.

670 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:05:22pm

re: #655 avanti

Look, your a frigging conservative, and should get that a person that earns good money has a right to spend it as they like.
On one hand the right bitches that she looks like crap because she shops off the rack, on the other hand, she gets shit for buying fancy.

No, I get that a person who takes a particular stand, as in the case of the Obama's, a sharing of wealth, everyone equal, you know, socialism, that they should be a good role model for their politics.

Your response is typical leftist, what's good for the masses is not the same for the leaders.

Conservatives wants EVERYONE to have a 6000 dollar clutch.

671 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:05:28pm

re: #655 avanti

Look, your a frigging conservative, and should get that a person that earns good money has a right to spend it as they like.
On one hand the right bitches that she looks like crap because she shops off the rack, on the other hand, she gets shit for buying fancy.

Perhaps the right would bitch less if the radical hard core extreme (is there any other kind?) Left hadn't gone apeshit over the cost of Sarah Palin's wardrobe.

672 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:05:31pm

re: #646 iceweasel

I think that's because the Chesler book can come as a real eyeopener to people who had doubts about just how prevalent misogyny and sexism are. Until one understands that the entire system involves women playing along with it, it's possible for some to not see just how endemic it is within the culture. And Chesler as far as I know has made the point that women can be misogynistic and sexist better than anyone else has -- and certainly before others had.

Yes- it's like I mentioned to you before- it was an eye-opener, and a difficult read as a woman to learn I'm both a victim and a perpetrator at the same time. But it was so worth the read, and so important for feminists both male and female to check out.

673 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:06:24pm

Burn Notice is on.

674 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:06:38pm

re: #656 Sharmuta

I don't know if they would. It's possible. But boys don't feel the same sense about their personal appearance as girls do. Some of it actually deals with evolution, actually. Socially, male apes have harems. The females compete for limited men. In humans, women do the same, so the level of attractiveness of a female means she'll have a better chance at mating. So women and men both value the appearance of females- it's our nature. To attack a woman for her looks is much more damaging psychologically than doing it to a man.

But it is similar with men regarding social status because that's what gets the girl. After all if Bill Clinton had just been another schlub working some cubicle job do you think 20 year old interns would be showing him their panties the first time they met? So the pressure is equally on men on the attract a mate game, it is just a different score card.

675 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:06:38pm

re: #660 avanti

I agree, probably not a good idea at any age.

No you don't, as you said above...

"I have mixed feeling about the age issue."

Make up your mind.

676 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:06:40pm

re: #661 ArchangelMichael

She must be a moron.

677 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:06:48pm

re: #663 MandyManners

One of the best movies ever.

I thought Angela in Girl interrupted was Oscar worthy...First time I had ever seen her and she blew my socks off. It's been downhill ever since....I stopped liking her after pushing tin...

678 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:07:16pm
679 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:08:05pm
680 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:08:09pm

re: #666 Big Steve

So how does a man rip on a woman? If he treats her like he would a man, he is a creepy misogynist. However if he tones it down, he is being condescending.

That's a false dichotomy.

Criticise women as you would men, for the same things you'd criticise men for, in the same ways that you'd criticise men. In other words, consistently apply the same standards to both men and women, for both praise and blame.

This is much harder than it sounds, by the way.

681 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:08:31pm

re: #678 buzzsawmonkey

Je ne sais pas. The shop was there.

Was it used stuff? Is it illegal only in the US?

682 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:08:58pm

re: #670 Walter L. Newton

No, I get that a person who takes a particular stand, as in the case of the Obama's, a sharing of wealth, everyone equal, you know, socialism, that they should be a good role model for their politics.

Your response is typical leftist, what's good for the masses is not the same for the leaders.

Conservatives wants EVERYONE to have a 6000 dollar clutch.

And as an addendum to my remark above, as a conservative, I want to SELL THEM THAT 6000 DOLLAR CLUTCH.

683 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:09:04pm

Good Evening Lizards. Late to the thread, did I miss any meltdowns?

684 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:09:09pm
685 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:09:12pm

re: #667 ArmyWife

She COULD buy whatever she wanted if the STOPPED lecturing about sharing wealth and doing more with less, etc. You don't get it both ways. EVER.

Exactly. It's do as I say, not as I do.

And then they actually want to tax away other people's ability to have such wealth.

686 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:09:31pm

re: #659 MandyManners

I get what you're saying. However, I don't see her being attacked for her looks but for the poltical statement she might or might not be making with her shirt.

It's a peace symbol. Surely there are better things about the 0bama administration to concern ourselves with other than his kid wearing a peace symbol.

Now- I enjoy an occasional snicker at michelle's taste in clothes, but I wouldn't call her names based on her looks or body type, though I am sick of hearing about her arms. Calling this girl names like this is wrong, and I believe it to also be misogyny. Freepers are nasty, and I'm glad that sort of thing isn't around LGF.

687 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:09:38pm

re: #680 iceweasel

I don't want to be treated like a man - we are different. I like the door held open for me, my chair pulled out. I don't want to be thought of as "less" than a man, but I am wired very differently.

688 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:10:53pm

re: #687 ArmyWife

I don't want to be treated like a man - we are different. I like the door held open for me, my chair pulled out. I don't want to be thought of as "less" than a man, but I am wired very differently.

+1000 up dings if I had them.

689 Big Steve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:11:12pm

re: #680 iceweasel

That's a false dichotomy.

Criticise women as you would men, for the same things you'd criticise men for, in the same ways that you'd criticise men. In other words, consistently apply the same standards to both men and women, for both praise and blame.

This is much harder than it sounds, by the way.

It is impossible to treat everyone the same....you can't even treat people of the same gender the same. In fact, you can say exactly the same thing to two different people and they will interpret it differently.

690 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:11:19pm

The Kid is hungry again. bbiab

691 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:11:25pm

re: #687 ArmyWife

and plumbed as well....

692 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:11:25pm

re: #685 VioletTiger

Exactly. It's do as I say, not as I do.

And then they actually want to tax away other people's ability to have such wealth.

While the president's salary, room & board, etc. is actually paid courtesy of those very same taxes.

693 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:11:47pm

re: #690 MandyManners

The Kid is hungry again. bbiab

Duct tape 2M. Duct tape.

694 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:12:08pm

re: #691 LionOfDixon

as luck would have it!

695 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:12:32pm
696 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:12:44pm

re: #670 Walter L. Newton

No, I get that a person who takes a particular stand, as in the case of the Obama's, a sharing of wealth, everyone equal, you know, socialism, that they should be a good role model for their politics.

Your response is typical leftist, what's good for the masses is not the same for the leaders.

Conservatives wants EVERYONE to have a 6000 dollar clutch.

Raising the progressive tax rate back to the Clinton years is not exactly making everyone equal. Even with the extra 3% in taxes, Obama can still afford the purse.
I don't believe that you have to be poor or dress like you are to give the poor good advice.

697 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:13:48pm

re: #696 avanti

but she wants to take MY money and give it to the poor. I want to keep my money and buy a $6000 purse.

698 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:14:02pm

re: #675 Walter L. Newton

No you don't, as you said above...

"I have mixed feeling about the age issue."

Make up your mind.

You really like to fight do you not ?

699 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:14:26pm

The best part of Man's Nature is being a gentleman...
the list begins at that point....

700 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:14:31pm

re: #697 ArmyWife

but she wants to take MY money and give it to the poor. I want to keep my money and buy a $6000 purse.

6000 updings!

701 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:14:32pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

Yes- it's like I mentioned to you before- it was an eye-opener, and a difficult read as a woman to learn I'm both a victim and a perpetrator at the same time. But it was so worth the read, and so important for feminists both male and female to check out.

Yes, exactly. Everyone should read it. It wasn't news to me that woman are also misogynistic, but it was still jarring to confront it. In particular, I hadn't entirely accepted some of the ways I'd been subtly misogynistic in the past. Very uncomfortable.

I read someone recently who said one of the good points for feminism about Palin's nomination was that it finally started people on the right talking about sexism and misogyny in politics. (That conversation had been happening for some on the left, and then because of Clinton for more.)

I hope that the conversation continues.

702 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:14:41pm

re: #685 VioletTiger

Exactly. It's do as I say, not as I do.

And then they actually want to tax away other people's ability to have such wealth.

Typical lefty. "I've got mine! Fuck you!

703 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:15:01pm

re: #687 ArmyWife

I don't want to be treated like a man - we are different. I like the door held open for me, my chair pulled out. I don't want to be thought of as "less" than a man, but I am wired very differently.

We're talking about criticism and praise.

704 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:15:45pm

re: #699 HoosierHoops

The best part of Man's Nature is being a gentleman...
the list begins at that point....

Which is lost on the youth of today.:(

705 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:16:11pm

re: #697 ArmyWife

Nouveau riche, like the Obama's, are so easy to spot. Overpriced accessories and lousy French.

706 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:16:19pm

Hey 0bama & Democrats, fix the economy.

707 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:16:28pm

re: #674 Big Steve

But it is similar with men regarding social status because that's what gets the girl. After all if Bill Clinton had just been another schlub working some cubicle job do you think 20 year old interns would be showing him their panties the first time they met? So the pressure is equally on men on the attract a mate game, it is just a different score card.

And I didn't deny that. Men can not only use their looks to attract women, but status too. You think Mick Jagger would have babes without the Rolling Stones? Some women like power, others fame, others want a poet, or a nerd, or wealth- or whatever turns their crank. But this phenomenon of female attractiveness crosses cultures- it's global. And women can be very nasty when competing with each other, and that includes attacks on the one thing all women have in their nature- the need for attractiveness. Maybe it seems superficial, but women know it can cut to the bone.

You want an example of what criticisms of one's appearance can do to a woman- how much it can mess with their psyches even when they're already attractive? Think Princess Diana.

708 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:16:32pm

re: #629 Big Steve

Nah...she has one purse and it is about the size of a gym bag. But true story here, when Mrs Big Steve and I were first married we were invited to an old friend's wedding in LA. The husband was connected in the movie business. So the reception was at some swanky place in Pacific Palisades. We, being young rubes from Texas, pretty much wall-flowered it. However when the buffet was served I got in line and the young woman in front of me had a striking sequined dress on. So, just being friendly, I commented to her that her dress was "real purty".....and she spun around, gave me a look like I was dirt, and said "It should, it cost 30,000". I slunk back to Mrs Big Steve and related the story. I didn't even know a dress could possibly cost that much. Mrs Big Steve suggested next time I see the dress and its owner that I should spill a drink on her.

I like Mrs. Big Steve's take on that.
If you're from the south, you know that revealing the cost of that dress was a very trashy thing to do.

709 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:16:35pm

re: #698 avanti

You really like to fight do you not ?

You really like to make statement that you can't (or won't) back up, do you not? What, you think this is a game? And there we go with that old liberal shoe, I want to "fight." Others use the word "squabble."

No, I want to discuss, do you understand how this works, you comment, I respond, either agree, disagree or make a statement to continue the discussion.

Whiner.

710 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:17:06pm

re: #634 Sharmuta

That's an interesting metaphor for it- the invisible burqa.... Thanks- I'll think upon that more.

It serves the same purpose, but lets men, especially men who think of themselves as Liberal, treat women like crap and still feel good about it.

711 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:17:10pm

Nothing like good old fashioned liberal cognitive desonence.

A moment now with Google to look back at the presidential campaign:

McCain + Wardrobe Search

Palin + Wardrobe Search

//Poor Michelle is a victim of the vast right wing wardrobe conspiracy.

712 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:17:11pm

re: #689 Big Steve

It is impossible to treat everyone the same....you can't even treat people of the same gender the same. In fact, you can say exactly the same thing to two different people and they will interpret it differently.

Except you moved the goalposts. You asked "how can a man rip on a woman" without being accused of misogyny or of condescending towards her.

That's the question I answered.

713 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:17:16pm

re: #703 iceweasel

ok, that's fine. But women are still different. We are more emotional, if I called you a "lard ass" and I called HoosierHoops a "lard ass" the responses I'd get would be quite different. We don't react the same - men are harder, warriors. Women are caregivers. It makes the world go 'round.

714 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:17:20pm

re: #704 Erik The Red

Which is lost on the youth of today.:(

Not mine.

715 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:17:39pm

re: #705 LionOfDixon

I like your avatar. We could use him now.

716 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:18:39pm

re: #697 ArmyWife

but she wants to take MY money and give it to the poor. I want to keep my money and buy a $6000 purse.

OK, I get that, but as a liberal, if I starting making over 200K a year, I'll deal with the 3% increase when the Bush cut expires. Since I'm poor and make only about a third of that, I'll take the tax cut.

717 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:19:12pm

re: #711 Gus 802

Nothing like good old fashioned liberal cognitive desonence.

A moment now with Google to look back at the presidential campaign:

McCain + Wardrobe Search

Palin + Wardrobe Search

//Poor Michelle is a victim of the vast right wing wardrobe conspiracy.

Thanks for reminding us of that, Gus. They ripped Palin to shreds for clothes that weren't even hers.
Effing hypocrites.

718 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:19:42pm

re: #710 ~Fianna

It serves the same purpose, but lets men, especially men who think of themselves as Liberal, treat women like crap and still feel good about it.

Absolutely. A couple of my lefty female friends and I have even identified this: the "sensitive man" syndrome. I'd rather deal with a straight out sexist than a 'sensitive' 'liberal' male who is ALSO a sexist-- because the second kind is just as condescending and far more dangerous because he can't be convinced he's doing anything wrong.

719 Mithrax  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:19:47pm

re: #707 Sharmuta

Men can not only use their looks to attract women, but status too. You think Mick Jagger would have babes without the Rolling Stones? Some women like power, ..., or a nerd, ...- or whatever turns their crank.

If you know of any, I'll take three :)

But they can't be choosy about the looks or status department ;)

720 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:20:31pm

re: #714 VegasRick

Not mine.

Good man. I have 2 girls and I pray they bring home a gentleman,(Well mannered boy). If they don't there will be conflict.

721 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:20:31pm

re: #644 Walter L. Newton

Ok, I can't even believe that you would have one second of thought about the age issue, other then thinking UNDERAGE GIRLS ARE OFF LIMITS. Period. There should be NO OTHER THOUGHT.

Sick.

Age is one of those things that depends on where you are. In NV, 16 is legal.

I also didn't even think from just glancing at her photo that she was underage. It's not like she's 10 and it's obvious. Can you unerringly tell between 15 and 18?

722 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:20:44pm

re: #717 VioletTiger

Thanks for reminding us of that, Gus. They ripped Palin to shreds for clothes that weren't even hers.
Effing hypocrites.

You're welcome. The liberal defense just boggles the mind. How soon they forget their own actions in past campaigns and events. They are quick to forget yet always remain claimants to victimhood.

723 sagehen  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:20:46pm

re: #527 BatGuano

I thought Schmecker was a penis?

Yiddish has many, many words for penis.

Which may or may not be some profound sociological reflection of the culture it comes from.

724 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:21:01pm

re: #716 avanti

Ok, I'll play your game. I DO make over $200,000 and I'd like to keep my 3% and pay for my 2 houses and send my daughter to college on my dime, and buy things like $6000 purses (which I don't, because believe me when I tell you, $200,000 isn't rich. Others here will probably concur).

725 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:21:33pm
726 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:21:34pm

re: #724 ArmyWife

Ok, I'll play your game. I DO make over $200,000 and I'd like to keep my 3% and pay for my 2 houses and send my daughter to college on my dime, and buy things like $6000 purses (which I don't, because believe me when I tell you, $200,000 isn't rich. Others here will probably concur).

Concur.

727 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:21:48pm

re: #713 ArmyWife

ok, that's fine. But women are still different.

I'll agree that men and women are different, but that's it.

We're not wired as a group to be more nurturing or tender or gentle than men, and we're just as capable of violence (if less prone to physical violence, only because we lack the physical strength).

728 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:22:35pm

re: #723 sagehen

As does English. I should have known. :)

729 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:22:52pm

re: #710 ~Fianna

It serves the same purpose, but lets men, especially men who think of themselves as Liberal, treat women like crap and still feel good about it.

Hmmm. Superficial male feminists.... Maybe superficial female feminists too. You should check out that book. Woman's Inhumanity to Woman

730 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:22:54pm

re: #716 avanti

OK, I get that, but as a liberal, if I starting making over 200K a year, I'll deal with the 3% increase when the Bush cut expires. Since I'm poor and make only about a third of that, I'll take the tax cut.

Look at this Avanti, I agree with you. I agree that you are a liberal, I agree with you that Obama is going to take money from the rich and give it to you, hell, I even agree that anyone that sees that policy as fair is crazy.

Oh, I'm sorry, you never said you were crazy. See, I can have fun, I'm not fighting, you just take a good discussion too fucking personal.

:)

731 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:23:24pm

Well, there's the invisdible burka, and then there's the imaginary bikini; sexuality can work for someone, as well as against them:

The Secret of Palin's Staying Power
Why sex appeal matters in politics
Steve Chapman
[Link: www.reason.com...]

732 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:23:25pm

re: #655 avanti

Look, your a frigging conservative, and should get that a person that earns good money has a right to spend it as they like.
On one hand the right bitches that she looks like crap because she shops off the rack, on the other hand, she gets shit for buying fancy.

It's mysogyny. Same with Sarah Palin - if she dressed like an active woman from a rural area, someone would have bitched about her being 'dowdy'. They send her to buy a new wardrobe and someone bitches that she's frivolous.

Women can't win if clothes are involved. We either look too good or not good enough.

Meanwhile, Lamar Alexander could rock the flannel shirt and no one gave a damn.

733 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:23:46pm

re: #729 Sharmuta

Hmmm. Superficial male feminists.... Maybe superficial female feminists too. You should check out that book. Woman's Inhumanity to Woman

Definitely! Chesler even mentions the outcry among 'feminists' against her.

BBL.

734 hazzyday  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:23:50pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

Yes- it's like I mentioned to you before- it was an eye-opener, and a difficult read as a woman to learn I'm both a victim and a perpetrator at the same time. But it was so worth the read, and so important for feminists both male and female to check out.

I use humanist. I have an aversion to the term feminist as I think it is politically corrupted. But the argument does need a gender identity. One test people can perform on themselves is to place them selves in judging situations. A woman at the mall lot pulls her car in front of a drive just before he/she reaches the space.

How inclined is the driver to:
A. ignore it
B. argue with her

A man does the same thing the next day. I would posit that people in general are more inclined to argue with a woman and ignore it with a man. It also holds for old vs young.

Now if people all wore guns the story would probably be different.

735 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:24:09pm

re: #655 avanti

Look, your a frigging conservative, and should get that a person that earns good money has a right to spend it as they like.
On one hand the right bitches that she looks like crap because she shops off the rack, on the other hand, she gets shit for buying fancy.

The left bitched about Sarah Palin's wardrobe, and just about everything else that Sarah Palin does.

Tell me again the rare and valuable skills that Michelle has for which she can demand such a high salary.

736 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:24:28pm

re: #715 BatGuano

Thanks...We miss him dearly. So sad to hear today that more people viewed Michael Jackson's funeral than President Reagan's. That fact alone may go a long way in explaining how Obama ever got elected to the same office as Reagan -- an in only one generation.

737 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:24:31pm

re: #708 reine.de.tout

I like Mrs. Big Steve's take on that.
If you're from the south, you know that revealing the cost of that dress was a very trashy thing to do.

One needn't be from the South to know that.

738 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:24:32pm
739 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:24:41pm

re: #716 avanti

OK, I get that, but as a liberal, if I starting making over 200K a year, I'll deal with the 3% increase when the Bush cut expires. Since I'm poor and make only about a third of that, I'll take the tax cut.

I'm making like 44 dollars a month more since Obama changed the deductions.. I'm glad..But really..It's like being a kid getting ready to get spanked...and you know it's coming..and you know it's going to hurt...
And all the tea parties in the world aren't going to help...Smack!

740 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:25:32pm

re: #716 avanti

OK, I get that, but as a liberal, if I starting making over 200K a year, I'll deal with the 3% increase when the Bush cut expires. Since I'm poor and make only about a third of that, I'll take the tax cut.

If it was 3%, that would be relatively tolerable. The top marginal rate if the Dems have their way would go up to close to 51% with all the surtaxes that are being proposed.

But what I wonder is wouldn't you rather your money go to your children rather than the government? The government is more likely to waste the money.

741 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:25:37pm

re: #727 iceweasel

We will have to agree to disagree. It's more than strength. Look at male children and female children. Hand them both blocks, the males will throw them, topple buildings with a crash, turn them into weapons. Females build pretty towns with streets, etc. This is not absolute, mind you, but I'd be willing to bet majority.

742 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:25:50pm

re: #713 ArmyWife

ok, that's fine. But women are still different. We are more emotional, if I called you a "lard ass" and I called HoosierHoops a "lard ass" the responses I'd get would be quite different. We don't react the same - men are harder, warriors. Women are caregivers. It makes the world go 'round.

If someone called me a "lardass" I'd beat the shit out of him.

743 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:26:39pm

re: #742 MandyManners

If someone called me a "lardass" I'd beat the shit out of him.

My kind of woman, not taking crap from anybody.

744 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:26:59pm
745 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:27:09pm

I don't consider myself to be a feminist any more than I consider myself to be a masculist; I'm a gender egalitarian.

Different, but equal.

746 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:27:10pm

re: #742 MandyManners

and rightly so! If someone called me a lard ass, I'd beat the crap out of them, and then cry.

747 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:27:24pm

re: #735 Alouette

Tell me again the rare and valuable skills that Michelle has for which she can demand such a high salary.

She's connected to a political machine that can make the dead vote.

748 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:27:40pm

re: #720 Erik The Red

Good man. I have 2 girls and I pray they bring home a gentleman,(Well mannered boy). If they don't there will be conflict.

Thank you. My wife and I have worked very hard to raise them as gentlemen yet very strong.

749 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:28:05pm

re: #742 MandyManners

If someone called me "lard-ass" I'd look in a mirror, just to make sure that shortening was not, in fact, dripping out of my anus. Having confirmed no leakage of lard, I would probably then get mad......or hungry.

750 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:28:06pm

re: #741 ArmyWife

We will have to agree to disagree. It's more than strength. Look at male children and female children. Hand them both blocks, the males will throw them, topple buildings with a crash, turn them into weapons. Females build pretty towns with streets, etc. This is not absolute, mind you, but I'd be willing to bet majority.

I never did that. I did try to "hack" the building blocks and other construction sets to make the parts build things the toy designers never intended. I destroyed more Erector sets that way.

But no, I never played "destroy."

751 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:28:10pm

re: #735 Alouette

The left bitched about Sarah Palin's wardrobe, and just about everything else that Sarah Palin does.

Tell me again the rare and valuable skills that Michelle has for which she can demand such a high salary.

From October of 2008.

BREAKING: RNC Spends $150,000 on Palin's clothes
by Canadian4Obama

Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 06:59:53 PM PDT

What would we have said if Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama had taken $150,000 of donor money and spent it on clothes, hair and makeup?

This is from the Daily Kook site. There's many over there.

Let's see 150,000 divided by 6,000 equals about 25 lousy purses. //

752 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:28:22pm

re: #736 LionOfDixon

So sad to hear today that more people viewed Michael Jackson's funeral than President Reagan's.

That is reprehensible! I did not know that but I should have guessed. I hope American society has bottomed out: I do not want to sink lower into this cultural cesspool!

753 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:28:31pm

re: #732 ~Fianna

It's mysogyny. Same with Sarah Palin - if she dressed like an active woman from a rural area, someone would have bitched about her being 'dowdy'. They send her to buy a new wardrobe and someone bitches that she's frivolous.

Women can't win if clothes are involved. We either look too good or not good enough.

Meanwhile, Lamar Alexander could rock the flannel shirt and no one gave a damn.

I heard a lot of bitching about Alexander's shirt. A lot of it came from his fellow Tennesseans.

754 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:29:01pm

re: #724 ArmyWife

Ok, I'll play your game. I DO make over $200,000 and I'd like to keep my 3% and pay for my 2 houses and send my daughter to college on my dime, and buy things like $6000 purses (which I don't, because believe me when I tell you, $200,000 isn't rich. Others here will probably concur).

Then you'll probably survive going back to the pre Bush rate when it expires.

755 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:29:10pm

re: #747 jaunte


Re-animating the dead for political purposes...hmmmm sounds like Franken -Stein.

756 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:29:14pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

Yes- it's like I mentioned to you before- it was an eye-opener, and a difficult read as a woman to learn I'm both a victim and a perpetrator at the same time. But it was so worth the read, and so important for feminists both male and female to check out.

I'm a third-wave feminist, so I group sexism, racism, classism and homophobia under the umbrella of the patriarchy.

It's amazing how we're all conditioned to attack our own groups and other sub-groups to defend a system that very, very few people actually conform to. Gay bashing is just sublimated misogyny - the real problem with being gay in our culture is that it's feminizing the masculine, which makes gay men traitors to straight men.

No one is not racist, sexist or classist... but it's important to start to recognize the ways that our own behavior plays in to patriarchy and start to change that in ourselves.

757 hazzyday  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:29:15pm

re: #726 reine.de.tout

Concur.

It's enough to get you into $400,000 of short term debt.

758 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:29:31pm

re: #735 Alouette

The left bitched about Sarah Palin's wardrobe, and just about everything else that Sarah Palin does.

Tell me again the rare and valuable skills that Michelle has for which she can demand such a high salary.

You mean the position she had in Chicago that disappeared when she moved on?

759 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:29:57pm
760 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:30:05pm

re: #750 Walter L. Newton

I think there is a creator-destroyer spectrum among humans that doesn't neccessarily map to gender.

761 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:30:17pm

re: #752 BatGuano

So sad to hear today that more people viewed Michael Jackson's funeral than President Reagan's.

That is reprehensible! I did not know that but I should have guessed. I hope American society has bottomed out: I do not want to sink lower into this cultural cesspool!

It ain't over yet... welcome to the bottom-dwellers.

762 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:30:22pm

re: #743 FurryOldGuyJeans

My kind of woman, not taking crap from anybody.

Life's too short to put up with twits.

763 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:30:44pm

re: #746 ArmyWife

and rightly so! If someone called me a lard ass, I'd beat the crap out of them, and then cry.

Only if I broke a nail.

764 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:30:49pm

re: #750 Walter L. Newton

I said it wasn't absolute! But you still modified it, right? and you NEVER picked up a stick or made a gun shape with your hand and ran around "shooting" friends yelling "Pow! Pow!"?

765 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:30:54pm

re: #758 MandyManners

You mean the position she had in Chicago that disappeared when she moved on?

A hospital that got about a quarter of a million dollars grant money when she got hired, you mean that position?

766 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:00pm

re: #744 taxfreekiller

So, what the chance and hope for Ford getting the cop car contract in Chicago and not Obama's GM.

To Hell with that! Why not Carbon Motors' E7!

767 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:01pm
768 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:14pm

re: #735 Alouette

The left bitched about Sarah Palin's wardrobe, and just about everything else that Sarah Palin does.

Tell me again the rare and valuable skills that Michelle has for which she can demand such a high salary.

I think they bitched because she did not pay for them, but I was not one that cared.
Michelle is presently between jobs, but her husband has his book money.

769 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:16pm

re: #736 LionOfDixon

There is no way that MJ's funeral should have been viewed by more persons than President Reagan's.

770 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:22pm

re: #746 ArmyWife

and rightly so! If someone called me a lard ass, I'd beat the crap out of them, and then cry.

That would be very rude of them... No one would say that... A more fair question would be the different responses to love, hurt, pain, school, kids or parents...whatever...something to invoke honesty with out an attack lie being called a lard ass or stupid or something....How we respond to the same situations as men and women is so much deeper that emotions...

771 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:22pm
772 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:23pm

re: #762 MandyManners

Life's too short to put up with twits.

Oh lawdie, then I really in trouble!

773 JacksonTn  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:29pm

re: #758 MandyManners

You mean the position she had in Chicago that disappeared when she moved on?

MM Yes! ... I was just about to look that one up ... but knew you would have it somewhere ...

774 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:31:49pm

re: #754 avanti

Then you'll probably survive going back to the pre Bush rate when it expires.

Typical fucking liberal. You earn enough/to much so you can survive by giving some of it up to the lazy people. FUCK THAT. I work to damn hard for my money to just give it away.

775 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:32:01pm

re: #727 iceweasel

I'll agree that men and women are different, but that's it.

We're not wired as a group to be more nurturing or tender or gentle than men, and we're just as capable of violence (if less prone to physical violence, only because we lack the physical strength).

Oh, iceweasel - I don't have a damned thing to back me up, other than just years of observing people.

When women want to be physically violent, they can find a way. It isn't just lack of physical strength that makes us less physically violent.

We are hard-wired to act and respond differently than men do. We do tend to be more nurturing - we can learn to act differently when it's necessary to do so, but for most of us, our instincts will be to try to keep things calm, whereas a man's nature involves an instinct to protect and keep safe that which he loves.

776 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:32:22pm

re: #749 LionOfDixon

If someone called me "lard-ass" I'd look in a mirror, just to make sure that shortening was not, in fact, dripping out of my anus. Having confirmed no leakage of lard, I would probably then get mad......or hungry.

For some reason, that reminded me of this.

777 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:32:31pm

re: #764 ArmyWife

I said it wasn't absolute! But you still modified it, right? and you NEVER picked up a stick or made a gun shape with your hand and ran around "shooting" friends yelling "Pow! Pow!"?

Nope. I lived in Brooklyn, I saw enough of the real thing, I didn't like it, I never saw it as play.

778 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:32:44pm

re: #737 MandyManners

One needn't be from the South to know that.

Oh, I know.
But things like that seem to still have some importance in the South, whereas not so much elsewhere.

779 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:32:53pm
780 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:32:57pm

re: #756 ~Fianna

but it's important to start to recognize the ways that our own behavior plays in to patriarchy and start to change that in ourselves.

Right- I agree. It's one of the reasons I continue to discuss female misogyny with other women. Many women don't think of themselves as sexist- they can't be because they themselves are women. Until we women start to confront our own misogyny and start treating each other with more respect- the rest of the cultural misogyny will remain, imo.

781 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:33:01pm

re: #770 HoosierHoops

for the record, I would like to state Hoosier is NOT a lard ass.

782 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:33:04pm

re: #745 Salamantis

I don't consider myself to be a feminist any more than I consider myself to be a masculist; I'm a gender egalitarian.

Different, but equal.

Yeah, we got bumps.

783 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:33:37pm

re: #777 Walter L. Newton

That would change perspective, wouldn't it? My husband played "Army" in the woods of Vermont since he could walk. Never grew out of it.

784 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:33:45pm

re: #771 taxfreekiller

John F. Kerry.

Ron Paul

785 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:33:59pm

re: #765 FurryOldGuyJeans

A hospital that got about a quarter of a million dollars grant money when she got hired, you mean that position?

Yeah, that one.

786 SteveC  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:34:07pm

Florida Eliza Update:

Took her to the OR about 2010 East coast time. Docs said procedure should take 2 hours. (I predict longer)

787 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:34:42pm

re: #776 MandyManners

Obviously a male. ;)

788 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:35:00pm

re: #774 Erik The Red

Typical fucking liberal. You earn enough/to much so you can survive by giving some of it up to the lazy people. FUCK THAT. I work to damn hard for my money to just give it away.

I am far from lazy, but have never made 200K a year, even as a business owner, so I won't be sharing anymore then I have been for decades.

789 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:35:05pm

re: #778 reine.de.tout

Oh, I know.
But things like that seem to still have some importance in the South, whereas not so much elsewhere.

Crap got pounded into my head growing up. I worked hard to forget a lot of it.

790 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:35:08pm

re: #718 iceweasel

Absolutely. A couple of my lefty female friends and I have even identified this: the "sensitive man" syndrome. I'd rather deal with a straight out sexist than a 'sensitive' 'liberal' male who is ALSO a sexist-- because the second kind is just as condescending and far more dangerous because he can't be convinced he's doing anything wrong.

It also blindsides you because it's just unexpected. At least it used to be. Now I'm sorta blind to it as a coping strategy. If I thought about it too much, the jokes about moving to Lesbian Feminist Island would stop being jokes. :)

I don't read Dkos because Kos and the Kozkids are such little mysogynist pricks that I can't deal. My husband peeks in and if there's anything particularly interesting, he passes it on.

I won't go near the comments, though. They make me ill.

791 JacksonTn  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:35:23pm

re: #775 reine.de.tout

Oh, iceweasel - I don't have a damned thing to back me up, other than just years of observing people.

When women want to be physically violent, they can find a way. It isn't just lack of physical strength that makes us less physically violent.

We are hard-wired to act and respond differently than men do. We do tend to be more nurturing - we can learn to act differently when it's necessary to do so, but for most of us, our instincts will be to try to keep things calm, whereas a man's nature involves an instinct to protect and keep safe that which he loves.

Reine Hey! ... we better be hard wired to be more nurturing or there would be no friggin kids ... who would go through that pain and then breast feed if you were women were not hard wired for it? ... just like the pain from childbirth ... usually it is a distant memory after some time ...

Another topic:

I just got back from four at&t stores and two Best Buy ... sold out of new iphones and have waiting list ... so I am going to Apple store tomorrow they are flush ... this better be good Reine! ...

792 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:35:56pm

Is there anyway to logically and fairly fix a top marginal rate? I don't see how. What is an immoral tax? 50%....75%....83% Nobody knows. In fact, I would argue any tax that treats people differently based on income is inherently unfair. Why should the rich pay proportionately more than the poor or middle class? Oh, one might argue that "they need it less" or that "they will survive." The question is why should they?

Combined with the fact that the rich use far less of the government's resources than the poor, the arguments for the flat tax and/or national sales tax vice the present system, become ever-more sound and strong.

793 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:36:21pm
794 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:36:26pm

re: #781 ArmyWife

for the record, I would like to state Hoosier is NOT a lard ass.

noted your honor....
:)
*wink*

795 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:36:27pm

re: #788 avanti

I am far from lazy, but have never made 200K a year, even as a business owner, so I won't be sharing anymore then I have been for decades.

So, it's okay to tax the shit out of those who do 'cause it won't affect you? Nice.

BTW, FCBBHO and Plugs repeatedly lowered the definition of "rich" during hte campaign.

796 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:36:56pm

re: #741 ArmyWife

We will have to agree to disagree. It's more than strength. Look at male children and female children. Hand them both blocks, the males will throw them, topple buildings with a crash, turn them into weapons. Females build pretty towns with streets, etc. This is not absolute, mind you, but I'd be willing to bet majority.

My brothers would build "race tracks" with the blocks, using other blocks for cars that would crash all over the place.

I built houses that had lovely people living in them.

797 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:36:58pm

re: #788 avanti

I am far from lazy, but have never made 200K a year, even as a business owner, so I won't be sharing anymore then I have been for decades.

IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.
Why oh why did I just break my GAZE on you?

798 sagehen  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:37:04pm

re: #621 MandyManners

The White House claimed it wasn't an alligator bag and that it cost less than $1,000.00 but, the maker of the bag insisted it was one of his and that it did cost $6,000.00.


Maybe it's a knockoff bought from a Canal Street street vendor when they were in NYC.

799 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:37:32pm

re: #729 Sharmuta

Hmmm. Superficial male feminists.... Maybe superficial female feminists too. You should check out that book. Woman's Inhumanity to Woman

It's on my Amazon list. :)

I've read a lot on that though. I got most of the way through a women's studies minor before I just wanted to graduate with my majors and stop paying for college.

800 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:38:06pm

re: #788 avanti

I am far from lazy, but have never made 200K a year, even as a business owner, so I won't be sharing anymore then I have been for decades.

Fucking class envy.

801 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:38:07pm

re: #788 avanti

I am far from lazy, but have never made 200K a year, even as a business owner, so I won't be sharing anymore then I have been for decades.

So, those of us who do make nice livings are required to pony up? Without regard to the fact that we earn it? And we work hard to earn it.

802 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:38:36pm

re: #795 MandyManners

So, it's okay to tax the shit out of those who do 'cause it won't affect you? Nice.

BTW, FCBBHO and Plugs repeatedly lowered the definition of "rich" during hte campaign.

The definition keeps getting lower each week. Soon maybe even avanti will notice he is soon going to get fucked by Our Man Obama and his traveling apology show.

803 JacksonTn  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:38:51pm

re: #788 avanti

I am far from lazy, but have never made 200K a year, even as a business owner, so I won't be sharing anymore then I have been for decades.

Avanti ... sigh ... Dr. Zhivago ... my favorite movie ...

804 SteveC  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:39:13pm

re: #795 MandyManners

BTW, FCBBHO and Plugs repeatedly lowered the definition of "rich" during hte campaign.

Jack be limbo, Jack be quick
Jack go unda limbo stick
All around the limbo clock
Hey, let's do the limbo rock

Limbo lower now
Limbo lower now
How low can you go?

805 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:39:23pm
806 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:39:33pm

How the hell did Avanti go from more that -1000 to a positive number?

807 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:39:38pm

re: #758 MandyManners

You mean the position she had in Chicago that disappeared when she moved on?

The "community relations liason" for a Chicago Hospital that paid her $350,000 a year.

My son is a "Community organizer" and he has really worked hard "organizing communities." He was in Moscow for 10 years, and has just moved back to New York which will be his headquarters for organizing multiple communities (he is in charge of rebuilding the Mumbai community)

He makes about 1/10 of what Michelle made, and does at least 100x more.re: #788 avanti

I am far from lazy, but have never made 200K a year, even as a business owner, so I won't be sharing anymore then I have been for decades.

808 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:39:41pm

re: #731 Salamantis

Well, there's the invisdible burka, and then there's the imaginary bikini; sexuality can work for someone, as well as against them:

The Secret of Palin's Staying Power
Why sex appeal matters in politics
Steve Chapman
[Link: www.reason.com...]

Yup. And as much as I hate to admit it, I've used it to my advantage. So have most other women. It's part of why we turn on each other so badly when we think another woman has what we don't. Attractiveness is a large part of women's social power and we have our own very nasty ways of giving and taking that power from each other.

809 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:39:54pm

re: #801 Dahveed

So, those of us who do make nice livings are required to pony up? Without regard to the fact that we earn it? And we work hard to earn it.

Only Obama supporting libtards can keep what they earn, since they are not the evil rich in their estimation. Soon they are going to find out how wrong they are.

810 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:40:05pm

avanti...are you crushed now?

811 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:40:07pm

re: #776 MandyManners

Nice.....looks like that dude (I hope it was a dude) swallowed a cup of talcum powder and then scarfed down a can of refried beans.
Mindblowing....pardon the pun.

812 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:40:20pm

re: #754 avanti

I'll survive - because I worked my tail off. I put myself through college, and then grad school. I started working late because it was important for me to stay home with my children, so when I DID go to work, I put in long hours, and impressed people with my ability. My first job, I earned $48,000/yr. I worked my way to my current position, and I never, ever expected anyone to hand me anything because I am a girl or I deserved it because I was born.

813 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:40:24pm

re: #802 FurryOldGuyJeans

The definition keeps getting lower each week. Soon maybe even avanti will notice he is soon going to get fucked by Our Man Obama and his traveling apology show.

Yes, but avanti will love it and scream for more.

814 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:40:38pm

re: #791 JacksonTn

Reine Hey! ... we better be hard wired to be more nurturing or there would be no friggin kids ... who would go through that pain and then breast feed if you were women were not hard wired for it? ... just like the pain from childbirth ... usually it is a distant memory after some time ...

Another topic:

I just got back from four at&t stores and two Best Buy ... sold out of new iphones and have waiting list ... so I am going to Apple store tomorrow they are flush ... this better be good Reine! ...

You are going to love your iPHone!

And as to the other - you know, when I was pregnant with my daughter, I felt a complete and unconditional love for that unborn baby, worried constantly that she would be OK. My hubby worried about ME. He didn't have the same level of love for that child until he saw her. And the pain . . . amazing, isn't it, how quickly you forget just how awful it was. I mean, you remember feeling it - but it isn't like it stops you from having another one (unless you're like me and wait 'til you're 39).

815 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:40:45pm

re: #806 Erik The Red

How the hell did Avanti go from more that -1000 to a positive number?

Ever heard of a "pity fuck"?

816 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:40:48pm

re: #797 Erik The Red

IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.
Why oh why did I just break my GAZE on you?

Because, as a caring human being, someone who actually sees the world around him, and it's bigger than just the nose on ones face, you understand the complexities for these issues.

Avanti can only see how it effects him and how he must adjust so he comes out smelling like roses, sans any caring for the rest of society.

I care about what Obama's policies are going to do, and how they are going to hurt everyone, people with money, people without money. Most conservatives do.

817 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:40:58pm
818 hazzyday  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:41:10pm

re: #756 ~Fianna

I'm a third-wave feminist, so I group sexism, racism, classism and homophobia under the umbrella of the patriarchy.

It's amazing how we're all conditioned to attack our own groups and other sub-groups to defend a system that very, very few people actually conform to. Gay bashing is just sublimated misogyny - the real problem with being gay in our culture is that it's feminizing the masculine, which makes gay men traitors to straight men.

No one is not racist, sexist or classist... but it's important to start to recognize the ways that our own behavior plays in to patriarchy and start to change that in ourselves.

A key value is a spiritual attitude and walking the walk. Or deeper inner meaning for those not religious. Sexism, racism, and classism occur when people look at other people primarily through the lens of the 5 senses and materialism. People that work on their own deeper meaning will also filter their perceptions of people through their conscience.

Illness of self or a loved one is what usually pushes this in most people. Health is more important than money. Someone of a different sex, race, and class has the same type of health concerns. Racism, Sexism, and Classism can become just minor annoyances to a person. But there are a lot of people who find their stability in such.

A person like an Al Sharpton contributes to racism and to people's unhealth. And people pay him and thank him for it.

People are afraid of love. Everyone. Especially when it means judging and forgiving ones self more and judging other people less.

819 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:41:55pm

re: #807 Alouette

He puts FCBBHO and WAB to shame.

820 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:42:13pm

re: #806 Erik The Red

How the hell did Avanti go from more that -1000 to a positive number?

It's a long story ...LOL

821 tradewind  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:42:20pm

Don't know about ya'll, but TOTUS certainly has me bursting with pride over this first:
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

822 harpsicon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:42:24pm

re: #441 ~Fianna

Most of those founding fathers, scientists and statesmen were rich. I'm not against education.. I'm just against the idea of pulling all public funding from education.

I support (and have worked on initiatives to support) vouchers because most of the public education sucks. But it's still better than nothing and if there isn't a free, baseline system, we're going to watch literacy rates drop like stones.

And I'd like to see a cite about girls lining up for pregnancy tests hoping. I grew up in NYC and that wasn't happening.

Public education definitely needs an overhaul, but it needs to exist.

I guess you're part of the way along on this path, but please consider what you're saying above. "Rich" isn't really the point - while rich kids have had more opportunities of any and all kinds since the beginning of time, that hasn't really changed under the current system. The colleges are just freaking out because they so want to be fair and equal but everybody is rich or similarly "advantaged".

This thread is about the nincompoopishness of Creationism, particularly in the schools, and if you're really thoughtful and rational about it, the only way you can ever slay this beast (and all the others like it) is just to jettison the public system. Then and only then will there be no indoctrination.

It's like a bankruptcy. If a company goes bankrupt the factories and the employees don't disappear - they are rather put back to work (as assets) by people who can do better at using their exceptional qualities to produce a good product that people want.

The problem with the public system is not so much the teachers, or even the physical facilities. It's the organization of it all, which is really terrible. These assets can be much better employed!

As for the wannabe pregnant teenagers, I don't have a link handy, cause it was a long time ago, but I assure you that this was definitely going on, in large measure (I can't imagine that your parents would have alerted you to it growing up!). You cannot imagine how screwed up New York City was before Giuliani. If you wanted to enforce the laws you were a fascist. I voted for Giuliani, and my friends, well-meaning people like yourself, called me a fascist. Crime was the result of "root causes" and could only be solved by ending racism and poverty. Even after Giuliani fixed up so much that was wrong, the Left went about inventing all kinds of revisionist reasons why it wasn't him and his policies that made the difference.

And welfare reform was supposedly going to throw half a million people onto the breadlines in New York City. There was hardly a bump - all these people had other gigs anyhow, and only took the govt check for gravy, it turned out. And everybody gained from the lack of crime - murder rate down 70%. I'll dig out the stories if I have to, but you can believe it. The change in the city was like night and day after Giuliani - Dinkins got thrown out basically because there were riots targeting the Hasidic Jews (they had their own ambulance system, which they paid for, because the city's didn't work, and they only picked up subscribers), and while people were being killed, Dinkins wouldn't call in the police!

Every Hasid voted the next election. The dying were wheeled to the polling places. And Giuliani won by 40,000 votes, which in NYC is like a spit in the ocean. (Re-election went much better!)

The more you hang around here, and the more you talk with people with a more serious interest in liberty and freedom than most people have at this point, the more you will realize that your positions (I wouldn't call them arguments because you mostly just assert them) are arbitrary, and concede the point before it can be seriously joined.

It isn't necessary for the govt to be involved for the poor to learn and to thus have a chance at life. In recent memory, the govt involvement has in fact mostly thwarted this goal.

823 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:42:31pm

re: #811 LionOfDixon

Nice.....looks like that dude (I hope it was a dude) swallowed a cup of talcum powder and then scarfed down a can of refried beans.
Mindblowing....pardon the pun.

The little boy inside me giggles every time I see it.

824 Mithrax  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:42:36pm

re: #815 MandyManners

Ever heard of a "pity fuck"?

LOL

You ma'am owe me a new monitor :P

825 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:42:40pm

re: #750 Walter L. Newton

I never did that. I did try to "hack" the building blocks and other construction sets to make the parts build things the toy designers never intended. I destroyed more Erector sets that way.

But no, I never played "destroy."

Engineer or programmer?

826 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:42:51pm

re: #792 LionOfDixon

Is there anyway to logically and fairly fix a top marginal rate? I don't see how. What is an immoral tax? 50%....75%....83% Nobody knows. In fact, I would argue any tax that treats people differently based on income is inherently unfair. Why should the rich pay proportionately more than the poor or middle class? Oh, one might argue that "they need it less" or that "they will survive." The question is why should they?

Combined with the fact that the rich use far less of the government's resources than the poor, the arguments for the flat tax and/or national sales tax vice the present system, become ever-more sound and strong.

The 91 % rate of years ago was whacked, the Reagan roll back from 51% was a good idea. IMHO, anything over 40% for the top bracket should be a wall.

827 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:42:58pm

re: #798 sagehen

"I could no more disavow my wife's $6,000 purse than I could my white Grandmother."

828 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:43:00pm

re: #806 Erik The Red

How the hell did Avanti go from more that -1000 to a positive number?

early morning stroke fests....

829 JacksonTn  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:43:29pm

Avanti ... train is leaving ... better jump on ...

830 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:44:01pm

re: #753 MandyManners

I heard a lot of bitching about Alexander's shirt. A lot of it came from his fellow Tennesseans.

I didn't hear about that, but that was around the time that I was just starting to get aware of politics and wasn't following the race closely.

831 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:44:47pm

re: #789 MandyManners

Crap got pounded into my head growing up. I worked hard to forget a lot of it.

Mandy -you need to read "confessions of a failed southern lady", by Florence King.

You will laugh all the way through.

832 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:44:49pm

re: #821 tradewind

Don't know about ya'll, but TOTUS certainly has me bursting with pride over this first:
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Lockerbie? What's that?

833 tradewind  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:44:56pm

re: #822 harpsicon

It's like a bankruptcy. If a company goes bankrupt the factories and the employees don't disappear - they are rather put back to work (as assets) by people who can do better at using their exceptional qualities to produce a good product that people want


Not always. There is reorganization, and there is liquidation.
Depends on which chapter you're talking.

834 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:45:13pm

re: #818 hazzyday

A key value is a spiritual attitude and walking the walk. Or deeper inner meaning for those not religious. Sexism, racism, and classism occur when people look at other people primarily through the lens of the 5 senses and materialism. People that work on their own deeper meaning will also filter their perceptions of people through their conscience.

Illness of self or a loved one is what usually pushes this in most people. Health is more important than money. Someone of a different sex, race, and class has the same type of health concerns. Racism, Sexism, and Classism can become just minor annoyances to a person. But there are a lot of people who find their stability in such.

A person like an Al Sharpton contributes to racism and to people's unhealth. And people pay him and thank him for it.

People are afraid of love. Everyone. Especially when it means judging and forgiving ones self more and judging other people less.

It all comes down to looking past what people are born as and seeing who they are. And this cannot be done on a collective basis, but only individually.

835 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:45:20pm

Before we know it spacefreak will also be in positive territory.

836 SteveC  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:45:38pm

re: #828 albusteve

early morning stroke fests....

Stop it. Just stop it. I'm laughing so hard there's stuff coming out of my ears!

837 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:46:25pm

It's taking too long to post.

838 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:46:36pm

re: #825 ~Fianna

Engineer or programmer?

Programmer of over 25 years. But not now, I'm 56, to old, at least that's what the recruiters tell me. Now I actually work at a live professional theatre, production manager. Theatre is sort of my backup, of course, theatre also pays me 1/4 less than what I was making as a programmer. But, it pays the bills.

Nothing has happened in my world to open up my chances at a full time programming job. Over 50 white professional males must not have been a line item in the stimulus bill.

839 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:46:39pm

re: #724 ArmyWife

Ok, I'll play your game. I DO make over $200,000 and I'd like to keep my 3% and pay for my 2 houses and send my daughter to college on my dime, and buy things like $6000 purses (which I don't, because believe me when I tell you, $200,000 isn't rich. Others here will probably concur).

Agree.
The truth is, once you are considered 'rich', you also lose a bunch of other perks and deductions as well. Consider that if you are 'rich', your kid has much less of a chance for college scholarships.

840 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:46:40pm

re: #835 Erik The Red

Before we know it spacefreak will also be in positive territory.

I still think SpaceFreak is more than one person.

841 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:47:04pm

re: #826 avanti

Fair enough...but still a subjective judgment. And then where do we draw the line with "Rich." Most people, including many of the "rich" consider rich to be those making more than them. Where does the 40% start? 75k? 100k? 1 Million....? I have a feeling you are not going to say $150,00......or even $200,000.

842 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:47:19pm

re: #780 Sharmuta

Right- I agree. It's one of the reasons I continue to discuss female misogyny with other women. Many women don't think of themselves as sexist- they can't be because they themselves are women. Until we women start to confront our own misogyny and start treating each other with more respect- the rest of the cultural misogyny will remain, imo.

It's good that this is starting to be a topic for conversation. And I'm impressed that there hasn't been a lot of gut-reaction nastiness from others on this thread. they've either participated intelligently, even if they disagreed, or ignored it, but no snark. One of the reasons this is the only blog I read.

843 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:47:20pm

re: #809 FurryOldGuyJeans

Only Obama supporting libtards can keep what they earn, since they are not the evil rich in their estimation. Soon they are going to find out how wrong they are.

I don't think the wealthy Obama supporters even counted on the spanking they will get when the Dems get through with them. But, the rich will always be rich. Not even Obama can change that.

844 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:47:31pm

some people see liberalism as just an alternate point of view...be nice, gush and make out..."I don't always agree with you but..."...others see liberalism as a crippling disease that erodes personal freedoms and undermines the foundation of the country...we are the extremists...I don't play nice with people that are cutting my throat

845 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:48:08pm

re: #841 LionOfDixon

Fair enough...but still a subjective judgment. And then where do we draw the line with "Rich." Most people, including many of the "rich" consider rich to be those making more than them. Where does the 40% start? 75k? 100k? 1 Million....? I have a feeling you are not going to say $150,00......or even $200,000.

IIRC, the limit was at $70,000.00 by the time the campaign was over.

846 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:48:48pm

re: #815 MandyManners

Ever heard of a "pity fuck"?

re: #815 MandyManners

Ever heard of a "pity fuck"?

Oh my

847 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:49:25pm

Supermax prison: Obama’s books objectionable

The federal government's most secure prison has determined two books written by President Barack Obama contain material "potentially detrimental to national security" and rejected an inmate's request to read them.

Ahmed Omar Abu Ali is serving a 30-year sentence at the federal supermax prison in Florence, Colo., for joining al-Qaida and plotting to assassinate then-President George W. Bush. Last year, Abu Ali requested two books written by Obama: "Dreams from My Father" and "The Audacity of Hope."

But prison officials, citing guidance from the FBI, determined that passages in both books contain information that could damage national security.

A prison spokeswoman referred questions to the FBI.

/that makes sense, after all, TOTUS himself has damaged national security ever since he took office

848 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:49:42pm

re: #816 Walter L. Newton


Avanti can only see how it effects him and how he must adjust so he comes out smelling like roses, sans any caring for the rest of society.

Read the book, I did:
Rand writes that the "exact meaning" of selfishness is "concern with one's own interests" In that work, Rand argues that a virtue is an action by which one secures and protects one's rational values—ultimately, one's life and happiness. Since a concern with one's own interests is a character trait that, when translated into action, enables one to achieve and guard one's own well-being, it follows that selfishness is a virtue. One must manifest a serious concern for one's own interests if one is to lead a healthy, purposeful, fulfilling life."

849 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:49:55pm
850 tradewind  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:50:04pm

re: #843 Dahveed

the rich will always be rich. Not even Obama can change that.


...but Madoff and Stanford made a hell of a run at 'em.

851 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:50:20pm

re: #845 MandyManners

IIRC, the limit was at $70,000.00 by the time the campaign was over.


Here's the tape:

According to a 2003 interview Obama thinks anyone making $70,000 per year is rich and deserve higher taxes. He actually says “tax cuts” should go no higher than $70,000


[Link: msplaceddemocrat.wordpress.com...]

852 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:50:24pm

re: #835 Erik The Red

Before we know it spacefreak will also be in positive territory.

Now you are in our time zone Erik...You'll be seeing more of them...Don't let them upset you..they try to bring an edge or something here...
I mean I swear to God who posts on a public board that he was at a BBQ and was checking out the 15 year old hottie? Please...delete worthy frigging post if i ever saw one...let her go erik...Gaze dude

853 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:51:48pm

RULES FOR DATING MY DAUGHTER
Rule One:
If you pull into my driveway and honk you’d better be delivering a package, because you’re sure not picking anything up.
Rule Two:
You do not touch my daughter in front of me. You may glance at her, so long as you do not peer at anything below her neck. If you cannot keep your eyes or hands off of my daughter’s body, I will remove them.
Rule Three:
I am aware that it is considered fashionable for boys of your age to wear their trousers so loosely that they appear to be falling off their hips. Please don’t take this as an insult, but you and all of your friends are complete idiots. Still, I want to be fair and open minded about this issue, so I propose this compromise: You may come to the door with your underwear showing and your pants ten sizes too big, and I will not object. However, in order to ensure that your clothes do not, infact come off during the course of you date with my daughter, I will take my electric nail gun and fasten your trousers securely in place to your waist.
Rule Four:
I’m sure you’ve been told that in today’s world, sex without utilizing a “Barrier method” of some kind can kill you. Let me elaborate, when it comes to sex, I am the barrrier, and I will kill you.
Rule Five:
It is usually understood that in order for us to get to know each other, we should talk about sports, politics, and other issues of the day. Please do not do this. The only information I require from you is an indication of when you expect to have my daughter safely back at my house, and the only word I need from you on this subject is: “early”
Rule Six:
I have no doubt you are a popular fellow, with many opportunities to date other girls. This is fine with me as long as it is okay with my daughter. Otherwise, once you have gone out with my little girl, you will continue to date no one but her until she is finished with you. If you make her cry, I will make you cry.
TBC......................

854 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:51:52pm

re: #817 buzzsawmonkey

Are you referring to the actual practice of "gay-bashing"--i.e., physical assault--or are you using this term to refer to gay-baiting?

"Gay-bashing" was a term which, until the early-mid Seventies, applied only to actual physical violence. It was substituted/conflated by the corrupt gay-activist establishment to apply to gay-baiting (i.e., pejorative language directed at gays) intentionally, for the purpose of equating with physical violence any oppositional verbal utterances that the activists disliked or disagreed with.

"Gay-baiting" was derived from the old term "red-baiting," which referred to pejorative references to leftists. The gay-rights activists abandoned "-baiting" and replaced it with "-bashing" for three reasons: an illiterate populace didn't understand the term "-baiting" anymore; those who did understand the term associated it with hard leftism, from which the activists wanted to appear to distance themselves; and, most important, the false equation of words with physical violence made it much easier to intimidate opponents.

I was referring to acts of violence. Thanks for the etymology, though, I didn't realize that there had been a morph and what the links were. Really interesting.

855 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:52:18pm

Rule Seven:
As you stand in my front hallway, waiting for my daughter to appear, and more than an hour goes by, do not sigh and fidget. If you want to be on time for the movie, you should not be dating. My daughter is putting on her makeup, a process than can take longer than painting the Golden Gate Bridge. Instead of just standing there, why don’t you do something useful, like changing the oil in my car?
Rule Eight:
The following places are not appropriate for a date with my daughter: Places where there are beds, sofas, or anything softer than a wooden tool. Places where there is darkness. Places where there is dancing, holding hands, or happiness. Places where the ambient temperature is warm enough to introduce my daughter to wear shorts, tank tops, midriff T-shirts, or anything other than overalls, a sweater, and a goose down parka - zipped up to her throat. Movies with a strong romantic or sexual theme are to be avoided; movies which features chain saws are okay. Hockey games are okay. Old folks homes are better.
Rule Nine:
Do not lie to me. I may appear to be a potbellied, balding, middle-aged, dimwitted has-been. But on issues relating to my daughter, I am the all-knowing, merciless god of your universe. If I ask you where you are going and with whom, you have one chance to tell me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I have a shotgun, a shovel, and five acres behind the house.
Rule Ten:
Be afraid. Be very afraid. It takes very little for me to mistake the sound of your car in the driveway for a chopper coming in over a rice paddy near Hanoi. When my Agent Orange starts acting up, the voices in my head frequently tell me to clean the guns as I wait for you to bring my daughter home. As soon as you pull into the driveways you should exit the car with both hands in plain sight. Speak the perimeter password, announce in a clear voice that you have brought my daughter home safely and early, then return to your car - there is no need for you to come inside. The camoflaged face at the window is mine.

856 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:52:24pm

re: #848 avanti

Read the book, I did:
Rand writes that the "exact meaning" of selfishness is "concern with one's own interests" In that work, Rand argues that a virtue is an action by which one secures and protects one's rational values—ultimately, one's life and happiness. Since a concern with one's own interests is a character trait that, when translated into action, enables one to achieve and guard one's own well-being, it follows that selfishness is a virtue. One must manifest a serious concern for one's own interests if one is to lead a healthy, purposeful, fulfilling life."

so what?...you are still a flaming Obot...what you've posted is drool

857 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:53:11pm

re: #822 harpsicon

This thread is about the nincompoopishness of Creationism, particularly in the schools, and if you're really thoughtful and rational about it, the only way you can ever slay this beast (and all the others like it) is just to jettison the public system. Then and only then will there be no indoctrination.

I disagree. You cannot stop public education cold- that's now far too invasive a mechanism for our society. The system is still reformable, and while some reforms might be viewed as drastic, it's not as drastic as killing it completely. I think the answer lies once again in spending restrictions. The state and local authorities should have control of the schools, with minimal to no input from Washington. There is an argument to be made that the Feds could have some national standards for education, but I think the money needs to come locally. People in Washington DC don't give a crap about the school in your community, but I bet you and your neighbors do.

858 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:53:13pm

re: #756 ~Fianna


It's amazing how we're all conditioned to attack our own groups and other sub-groups to defend a system that very, very few people actually conform to. Gay bashing is just sublimated misogyny - the real problem with being gay in our culture is that it's feminizing the masculine, which makes gay men traitors to straight men.

Absolutely. Take this as a superficial--but revealing-- example: suppose you're angry with a man: what are the worst swear words we can call him?
Virtually all of them are some form of calling him gay, or some way of saying something bad about his mother.

Now consider a woman. What are the swear words we apply to women? They're all some version of calling her a slut or an animal -- and by common consent in the US, the worst word of all to call her is a word that reduces her to nothing but her genitalia-- and we consider that word FAR worse than equivalent ones for men, like dick or prick.

This is not meant to be a formal argument, mind, but the way we use words is highly instructive.

(similarly, part of the peculiar horror of male rape in prison lies in the forced feminisation of the victims).

859 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:53:58pm

re: #848 avanti

There is a difference between enlightened self-interest and selfishness. Learn that.

860 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:54:03pm

re: #841 LionOfDixon

Fair enough...but still a subjective judgment. And then where do we draw the line with "Rich." Most people, including many of the "rich" consider rich to be those making more than them. Where does the 40% start? 75k? 100k? 1 Million....? I have a feeling you are not going to say $150,00......or even $200,000.

I would actually like to see more brackets on the top. 200K is certainly not rich, and a billionaire is a lot richer then a millionaire. Another issue is that 200K a year, in Manhattan is not like 200K/year in Tennessee.

861 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:54:23pm

re: #848 avanti

Read the book, I did:
Rand writes that the "exact meaning" of selfishness is "concern with one's own interests" In that work, Rand argues that a virtue is an action by which one secures and protects one's rational values—ultimately, one's life and happiness. Since a concern with one's own interests is a character trait that, when translated into action, enables one to achieve and guard one's own well-being, it follows that selfishness is a virtue. One must manifest a serious concern for one's own interests if one is to lead a healthy, purposeful, fulfilling life."

Hey Avanti, I'll go with my gut feeling. I don't need to read a book to learn how to be caring to myself and my fellow man.

There is nothing wrong with being selfish, but there is something wrong with being selfish to the exclusion of ones fellow man.

Neither you nor that paragraph that you clipped and pasted even mentions ones fellow man.

My point made, thank you, you and him said it better than I could have.

862 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:54:29pm

re: #754 avanti

Then you'll probably survive going back to the pre Bush rate when it expires.

Survive, huh?
You libs really are a bunch of losers.
What you don't seem to realize is that eventually, the pain will come around your way.

863 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:54:39pm

re: #842 ~Fianna

It's good that this is starting to be a topic for conversation. And I'm impressed that there hasn't been a lot of gut-reaction nastiness from others on this thread. they've either participated intelligently, even if they disagreed, or ignored it, but no snark. One of the reasons this is the only blog I read.

The Lizards are a higher form of blogosphere life.

864 hazzyday  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:55:36pm

re: #848 avanti

I think this is true. A person has to have ambition, work hard, and work for one's self interest. I find Ayn Rand's work like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Don't know why yet. Ambition, hard work, and self interest though don't mean one can not perceive a need to serve as a volunteer for a group.

I think the story is that people who eschew any of ambition, hard work, or self interest usually find themselves on an unlucky wrong path in life.

865 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:56:15pm

re: #853 Erik The Red

You see, what was I saying about a man's instinct being to protect and keep safe that which he loves?

The Roi's rules for the young men who date my daughter are the same as the ones you started listing there.

I have many fewer rules.

866 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:56:20pm

re: #850 tradewind

...but Madoff and Stanford made a hell of a run at 'em.

True, but the one thing I have noticed about the wealthy (the ones that earn it rather than inherit it) is that they often have the ability to become wealthy again.

867 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:56:36pm

re: #862 VioletTiger

Survive, huh?
You libs really are a bunch of losers.
What you don't seem to realize is that eventually, the pain will come around your way.

Libs think they are immune to the purges right up to the time they are stood up in front of that firing squad.

868 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:56:44pm

some pigs are better than others...selfishness is a virture

869 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:57:06pm

re: #863 Sharmuta

The Lizards are a higher form of blogosphere life.

yes, indeed.

870 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:57:11pm

re: #862 VioletTiger

You libs really are a bunch of losers.

/it's simply amazing how far some of them can get their tongues up TOTUS' ass crack

871 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:57:25pm

re: #858 iceweasel

Absolutely. Take this as a superficial--but revealing-- example: suppose you're angry with a man: what are the worst swear words we can call him?
Virtually all of them are some form of calling him gay, or some way of saying something bad about his mother.

Now consider a woman. What are the swear words we apply to women? They're all some version of calling her a slut or an animal -- and by common consent in the US, the worst word of all to call her is a word that reduces her to nothing but her genitalia-- and we consider that word FAR worse than equivalent ones for men, like dick or prick.

This is not meant to be a formal argument, mind, but the way we use words is highly instructive.

(similarly, part of the peculiar horror of male rape in prison lies in the forced feminisation of the victims).


I consider being being called a "prick, dick, cock head" as insulting to me as a women being called a cu_t.

The only reason I did not spell the whole word out is I have more respect for the ladies here than you do for us guys.

Go play with KT, and Avanti.

872 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:57:29pm

re: #863 Sharmuta

The Lizards are a higher form of blogosphere life.

Oh puleeeeasssseee, don't speak for me :)

873 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:57:48pm

re: #860 avanti

I would actually like to see more brackets on the top. 200K is certainly not rich, and a billionaire is a lot richer then a millionaire. Another issue is that 200K a year, in Manhattan is not like 200K/year in Tennessee.


Why do you think it is okay to take such a big chunk of anybody's income? If you have more money, you pay more without having to tax at a higher rate. It's like this bottomless pit of candy they can't keep their hands out of it.

874 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:58:23pm

re: #818 hazzyday

A key value is a spiritual attitude and walking the walk. Or deeper inner meaning for those not religious. Sexism, racism, and classism occur when people look at other people primarily through the lens of the 5 senses and materialism. People that work on their own deeper meaning will also filter their perceptions of people through their conscience.

Illness of self or a loved one is what usually pushes this in most people. Health is more important than money. Someone of a different sex, race, and class has the same type of health concerns. Racism, Sexism, and Classism can become just minor annoyances to a person. But there are a lot of people who find their stability in such.

A person like an Al Sharpton contributes to racism and to people's unhealth. And people pay him and thank him for it.

People are afraid of love. Everyone. Especially when it means judging and forgiving ones self more and judging other people less.

Wow, I wish I had more than one upding to give. That's really well put.

I agree with your take on people like Sharpton. I think overall he's done more damage to equality in this country than almost anyone else. He's an easy thing to point at and just declare that this equality thing has gone too far and become about getting back for past ills.

Women's advocates have the same issue (saying "all sex is rape" makes feminism seem very weird, especially to women who like sex, for example - not to mention, in my opinion, being really derogatory towards women in and of itself. I'm perfectly capable of deciding if, when and where I want to deal with someone's penis all on my own, thanks very much.)

875 LionOfDixon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:58:55pm

re: #860 avanti

All excellent arguments for a flat tax or national sales tax.....treat everybody alike.....geographic variations regarding compensation and cost of living are automatically taken into account....and there is no dis-incentive for higher earning.

876 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 6:59:16pm

re: #872 Walter L. Newton

Oh puleeeeasssseee, don't speak for me :)

Have you're people call my people.maybe we can do lunch

877 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:00:17pm

re: #873 VioletTiger

Why do you think it is okay to take such a big chunk of anybody's income? If you have more money, you pay more without having to tax at a higher rate. It's like this bottomless pit of candy they can't keep their hands out of it.

Sounds like the urban legend Willie Sutton quote:
Q: Why Do You Rob Banks?
A: Because That’s Where the Money Is….

878 aggieann  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:00:22pm

On the bright side, maybe this will keep the loony moonbats from blue states from moving in and taking over . . .

879 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:00:34pm

If only those who want to soak the rich would only endeavor to be them.....
Easy to give away other people's money.

880 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:00:36pm

re: #871 Erik The Red

I consider being being called a "prick, dick, cock head" as insulting to me as a women being called a cu_t.

The only reason I did not spell the whole word out is I have more respect for the ladies here than you do for us guys.

Go play with KT, and Avanti.

What's your damage? I certainly wasn't advocating calling anyone that!

881 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:00:42pm

re: #861 Walter L. Newton

Hey Avanti, I'll go with my gut feeling. I don't need to read a book to learn how to be caring to myself and my fellow man.

There is nothing wrong with being selfish, but there is something wrong with being selfish to the exclusion of ones fellow man.

Neither you nor that paragraph that you clipped and pasted even mentions ones fellow man.

My point made, thank you, you and him said it better than I could have.

Ayn Rand said it best, something like. "If I'm in a row boat and see a drowning man, it's my moral duty to help save him. That does not mean I have to row around the world looking for folks to save"

Yes, I'm selfish, always have been. If I concentrate on making myself successful and happy, I won't look to others for help as often.

882 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:01:06pm

See ya all later!

883 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:01:11pm

re: #838 Walter L. Newton

Programmer of over 25 years. But not now, I'm 56, to old, at least that's what the recruiters tell me. Now I actually work at a live professional theatre, production manager. Theatre is sort of my backup, of course, theatre also pays me 1/4 less than what I was making as a programmer. But, it pays the bills.

Nothing has happened in my world to open up my chances at a full time programming job. Over 50 white professional males must not have been a line item in the stimulus bill.

They're fools. You could probably school most of my friends.

884 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:01:24pm

re: #875 LionOfDixon

All excellent arguments for a flat tax or national sales tax.....treat everybody alike.....geographic variations regarding compensation and cost of living are automatically taken into account....and there is no dis-incentive for higher earning.

I think everyone should pay SOME income tax, even if it is a low rate. If you don't pay into the system, you don't have a stake.

885 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:01:29pm

re: #875 LionOfDixon

All excellent arguments for a flat tax or national sales tax.....treat everybody alike.....geographic variations regarding compensation and cost of living are automatically taken into account....and there is no dis-incentive for higher earning.

But a flat tax won't fly since Congress couldn't piss in the tax code to benefit some special interest, and the tax lawyers would be out of work. And just think how few IRS people would be needed to process simplified tax returns. Egads!

886 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:01:39pm

re: #873 VioletTiger

Why do you think it is okay to take such a big chunk of anybody's income? If you have more money, you pay more without having to tax at a higher rate. It's like this bottomless pit of candy they can't keep their hands out of it.

Avanti will not answer that question, he skips around it every time he is asked, or he'll give some off-topic reply.

887 ~Fianna  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:02:15pm

Okies all - great conversation but it's about time to crack open a bottle of wine and commence date night - I'd better go before asking Obama to let me camp out on Biden's couch with him.

888 Truck Monkey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:02:43pm

re: #868 albusteve

some pigs are better than others...selfishness is a virture

A great economics lesson (even for non-thinkers)


As the late Dr; Adrian Rogers said, "you cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

This professor is a Genius

An

economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never

failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class.

That class had insisted that Obama's socialism would work and that

no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this

class on Obama's plan".

All grades would be averaged and everyone

would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive

an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone

got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who

studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the

students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied

hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second

test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled

around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as

bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one

would study for the benefit of anyone else.

All failed, to their

great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also

ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is

great. But when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or

want to succeed.

Could it be any simpler?

This is The Teleprompter Jesus' plan for America. It has never, and will never work no matter how you slice it.

889 mich-again  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:02:47pm

re: #822 harpsicon

and if you're really thoughtful and rational about it, the only way you can ever slay this beast (and all the others like it) is just to jettison the public system. Then and only then will there be no indoctrination.

Do you really think the best course for the USA regarding education is to eliminate public schools? I disagree. Public schools can be very successful. My children are all the evidence I need. My son who started college this year was more prepared than I was after 12 years of expensive Catholic Schools. Why blow the whole system up because some people can't figure out how to do their job or just don't care enough to do it. That's why you fire people and elect different board members if they won't fire them. I think the successful schools all have diligent involved parents and communities. And Vice Versa.

890 Gus  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:02:48pm

Obamadites

The Obamadites were a social movement of American Democrats in the early twenty-first century who protested—often by destroying free market mechanisms—against the changes produced by the Reagan Revolution, which they felt were making them work and changing their entire way of victimhood and entitlements.

891 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:03:03pm

re: #886 Walter L. Newton

Avanti will not answer that question, he skips around it every time he is asked, or he'll give some off-topic reply.

Doing it right now spewing Ayn Rand's words as if she were some Holy Liberal Prophetess.

892 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:03:29pm

re: #881 avanti

Ayn Rand said it best, something like. "If I'm in a row boat and see a drowning man, it's my moral duty to help save him. That does not mean I have to row around the world looking for folks to save"

Yes, I'm selfish, always have been. If I concentrate on making myself successful and happy, I won't look to others for help as often.

be careful how successful you become...BO does not give a shit about you other than what he can shake you down for...better crunch those numbers

893 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:03:53pm

re: #871 Erik The Red

I likewise rail against misandry- but I tend to lean more towards IW's point here about prison rape and language. I see your point and agree, but there's some truth to nasty words for female genitalia being more insulting than the nasty words of the male anatomy. Women are rarely called these male genitalia names, but men will be called both. Isn't it attacking both genders to call a man "a pussy"? That's pretty degrading.

894 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:04:32pm

re: #815 MandyManners

Ever heard of a "pity fuck"?

That's what Mr. Gaeta asked for from Starbuck before he got his ass Executed!

895 SteveC  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:05:13pm

re: #883 ~Fianna

They're fools. You could probably school most of my friends.

"Taught 'em everything they know. But I didn't teach 'em everything I know."

896 hazzyday  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:05:53pm

re: #894 Macker

He got executed? I missed that.

897 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:05:59pm

Aw. hell.
My daughter the princess has been invited to go to the midnight showing of the new Harry Potter movie.

She made it crystal clear to me that I have not been invited.

crap.

898 mich-again  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:06:10pm

Raising taxes during a recession is a recipe for Cooked Golden Goose.

899 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:06:16pm

re: #881 avanti

Ah, so all you want is a hand-out given to you, but helping out someone else you won't ever do. Nice to know.

900 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:06:26pm

re: #886 Walter L. Newton

Avanti will not answer that question, he skips around it every time he is asked, or he'll give some off-topic reply.


I don't see how he can spout liberal talking points and then quote Ayn Rand.

901 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:06:45pm

re: #881 avanti

Ayn Rand said it best, something like. "If I'm in a row boat and see a drowning man, it's my moral duty to help save him. That does not mean I have to row around the world looking for folks to save"

Yes, I'm selfish, always have been. If I concentrate on making myself successful and happy, I won't look to others for help as often.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry for calling you a liberal, I'm sorry for assuming that you care about this or that, or don't care about this or that. I'm sorry that I even tried to reason with you about any of these subject, like compassion for fellow men, respect for a persons worth, both financial and spiritual, my concerns about our country and it's future. I am sorry that I even tried.

Your a freaking hedonist, so there is nothing to talk about.

902 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:06:52pm

re: #880 iceweasel

What's your damage? I certainly wasn't advocating calling anyone that!

No damage here. You said that being call a prick or a dick is less insulting than some of the names that women are called. I disagree.

903 mich-again  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:07:29pm

re: #897 reine.de.tout

She made it crystal clear to me that I have not been invited.

I would go with the "You aint the boss of me!" line.

904 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:07:49pm

I'm going to go read. Good debate on many things this evening!

I'm driving back to MD so the movers can pack my things, so I may or may not be checking in until Wednesday or so. Try to get on without me.

905 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:07:56pm

re: #900 VioletTiger

I don't see how he can spout liberal talking points and then quote Ayn Rand.

He doesn't understand it either.

906 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:08:07pm

re: #873 VioletTiger

Why do you think it is okay to take such a big chunk of anybody's income? If you have more money, you pay more without having to tax at a higher rate. It's like this bottomless pit of candy they can't keep their hands out of it.

Because the progressive tax has been a feature of the code for over 75 years and though all the POTUS's. The theory being the more you earn the less pain it will cause you. If you make 40K a year, a 20% rate leaves you 32K, if you make a million, the 34 % rate leaves you 660K.

907 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:08:18pm

re: #897 reine.de.tout

Aw. hell.
My daughter the princess has been invited to go to the midnight showing of the new Harry Potter movie.

She made it crystal clear to me that I have not been invited.

crap.

I'll go!
Now that my daughter has her own separate life, I have nobody to go see this kind of movie. I'd never get Mr. Tiger to go.

908 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:08:26pm

re: #897 reine.de.tout

Aw. hell.
My daughter the princess has been invited to go to the midnight showing of the new Harry Potter movie.

She made it crystal clear to me that I have not been invited.

crap.

To heck with the kids- go see it yourself. I'm going this weekend, I can't wait!

I ♥ Harry. And Neville.

909 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:08:30pm

re: #904 ArmyWife

I'm going to go read. Good debate on many things this evening!

I'm driving back to MD so the movers can pack my things, so I may or may not be checking in until Wednesday or so. Try to get on without me.

You will be missed.

910 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:08:54pm

re: #900 VioletTiger

I don't see how he can spout liberal talking points and then quote Ayn Rand.

Schizophrenia.

911 harpsicon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:08:54pm

re: #857 Sharmuta

I disagree. You cannot stop public education cold- that's now far too invasive a mechanism for our society. The system is still reformable, and while some reforms might be viewed as drastic, it's not as drastic as killing it completely. I think the answer lies once again in spending restrictions. The state and local authorities should have control of the schools, with minimal to no input from Washington. There is an argument to be made that the Feds could have some national standards for education, but I think the money needs to come locally. People in Washington DC don't give a crap about the school in your community, but I bet you and your neighbors do.

Why? How?

This thread is about Texas, not the federal govt. I live in Texas, and it's a real big state, and there's not a bloody thing I can do to stop Rick Perry from appointing nincompoop Creationists to the state board of ed.

THIS IS THE POINT.

Local is lovely, but states get involved too, as in this case! That's why this thread is here - indeed the feds will only make it worse, but it's bad enough on the state level.

And to the poster who took issue with my statement that the teachers and the school buildings would not disappear in this kind of "bankruptcy" - it doesn't matter if it's a dissolution or a reorganization: they don't dynamite the buildings and shoot the employees in either case.

They remain available to be better used by organizations who can deliver a product that is superior and that people want.

Yes, of course, the idea of public education is ingrained at this point, and yes, people freak out even thinking about a fundamentally different system - but if Obama can fundamentally change America, what's wrong with pointing out the logic of freeing ourselves from this kind of govt compulsion, whether it's Creationism or anything else?

912 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:09:06pm

re: #900 VioletTiger

A liberal who quotes Ayn Rand, Doesn't understand.

913 ArmyWife  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:09:14pm

re: #909 reine.de.tout

awww, thanks!

914 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:09:30pm

re: #902 Erik The Red

No damage here. You said that being call a prick or a dick is less insulting than some of the names that women are called. I disagree.

You personally find those words just as insulting. I personally would as well.

That doesn't change the fact that for the vast majority of people, the c-word carries a stigma that the others do not. The similar words about men are tossed around a lot more freely.

I'm making the broader point about how these words are generally used and perceived.

915 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:09:45pm

re: #907 VioletTiger

I'll go!
Now that my daughter has her own separate life, I have nobody to go see this kind of movie. I'd never get Mr. Tiger to go.

The Roi will not go to movies with me. I sometimes will go in the middle of the day, by myself, if it's something I really want to see and isn't the sort of movie that requires a movie partner - otherwise I wait for netflix.

But this movie requires a movie partner, imo.

916 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:10:04pm

re: #912 BatGuano

A liberal who quotes Ayn Rand, Doesn't understand.

it's a way to try and fit in....cop a ding

917 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:10:11pm

BY THE WAY...

I got a email back from Cato the Elder, he's ok and still on vacation. Since his health has been better, he decided to extend his vacation and is trying to catch a few sites around the country that wasn't originally in his plans.

He'll be back.

(Ok, no smart-assed remarks, just passing on some info, since someone asked earlier today. Save the smart-assed remarks fro when Cato is on line here).

918 hazzyday  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:10:20pm

re: #897 reine.de.tout

Can't you just go and sit a few seats back and laugh loudly?

919 tradewind  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:10:23pm

re: #831 reine.de.tout

And she should follow it up with a book written by a former schoolmate of mine...Being Dead is No Excuse...
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

920 SteveC  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:10:47pm

re: #896 hazzyday

He got executed? I missed that.

Staged a coup with the help of Tom Zarek and took over the Galactica. Held it for a little while until Adama got his bearings and loaded up his posse. He and Zarek wound up on the wrong end of a firing squad.

921 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:11:10pm

re: #906 avanti

Because the progressive tax has been a feature of the code for over 75 years and though all the POTUS's. The theory being the more you earn the less pain it will cause you. If you make 40K a year, a 20% rate leaves you 32K, if you make a million, the 34 % rate leaves you 660K.

It's ok because it's been done for 75 years. Anti-semitism has been around for, oh, 200 years, makes it ok.

922 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:11:20pm

re: #917 Walter L. Newton

Thanks for the update....

923 mich-again  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:11:30pm

re: #881 avanti

Yes, I'm selfish, always have been. If I concentrate on making myself successful and happy, I won't look to others for help as often.

I remember when Ronald Reagan said "The best social program is a job." Kind of the same line of thinking.

924 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:11:31pm

re: #896 hazzyday

He got executed? I missed that.

Here you go.

925 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:11:34pm

re: #893 Sharmuta

I likewise rail against misandry- but I tend to lean more towards IW's point here about prison rape and language. I see your point and agree, but there's some truth to nasty words for female genitalia being more insulting than the nasty words of the male anatomy. Women are rarely called these male genitalia names, but men will be called both. Isn't it attacking both genders to call a man "a pussy"? That's pretty degrading.

Sharm I agree 100%. Any names that are used in a demeaning fashion are equally bad for all of us. Just because some sound more vulgar to you or me does not change the fact that the are still equally demeaning.

926 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:11:45pm

re: #921 Walter L. Newton

Maybe a bit longer.

927 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:11:48pm

re: #900 VioletTiger

I don't see how he can spout liberal talking points and then quote Ayn Rand.

So far all he has demonstrated is that he can read words, but understanding is not something he has a grasp on.

928 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:12:01pm

re: #916 albusteve

I'm very conservative with downdings, otherwise...

929 SteveC  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:12:16pm

re: #907 VioletTiger

I'll go!
Now that my daughter has her own separate life, I have nobody to go see this kind of movie. I'd never get Mr. Tiger to go.

Catch it at the IMAX - that's the way to see a movie!

930 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:12:18pm

re: #918 hazzyday

Can't you just go and sit a few seats back and laugh loudly?

It is under consideration.

I love doing things that aggravate my daughter, since she is convinced that it is my sole purpose in life, the only reason God put me on this earth.

931 hazzyday  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:12:20pm

re: #920 SteveC

Staged a coup with the help of Tom Zarek and took over the Galactica. Held it for a little while until Adama got his bearings and loaded up his posse. He and Zarek wound up on the wrong end of a firing squad.

I'll have to see it on re run. The last one i saw they were all drunk. I watched them out of order. Took some of the weight out of the show i think.

932 hazzyday  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:13:05pm

re: #924 Macker

Here you go.

Cool site. thank you.

933 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:14:06pm

re: #917 Walter L. Newton

Easy, boy!...good to hear. :)

934 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:14:24pm

re: #925 Erik The Red

Sharm I agree 100%. Any names that are used in a demeaning fashion are equally bad for all of us. Just because some sound more vulgar to you or me does not change the fact that the are still equally demeaning.

We can agree they're all demeaning. That doesn't vitiate my point about language and the way we use it, and what that means.

935 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:15:04pm

re: #919 tradewind

And she should follow it up with a book written by a former schoolmate of mine...Being Dead is No Excuse...
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

haha!
Yes. There are loads of the "southern lady" types of books, and so many of them are so very enjoyable, particularly for those of us who actually grew up this way!

936 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:15:37pm

re: #906 avanti

Because the progressive tax has been a feature of the code for over 75 years and though all the POTUS's. The theory being the more you earn the less pain it will cause you. If you make 40K a year, a 20% rate leaves you 32K, if you make a million, the 34 % rate leaves you 660K.

But maybe the guy with a million would like to have 800K left. I'll go out on a limb here and say he earned it, and he should get to keep it as much as the guy who earned the 40k would like to keep it. Who are we to say either of them don't deserve to keep the same share of it?

937 Dahveed  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:15:56pm

re: #920 SteveC

Staged a coup with the help of Tom Zarek and took over the Galactica. Held it for a little while until Adama got his bearings and loaded up his posse. He and Zarek wound up on the wrong end of a firing squad.

Well crap! I was catching up on DVD. I guess I will have to let time go by and try to forget.

938 Macker  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:15:57pm

re: #932 hazzyday

Cool site. thank you.

Yes, I've contributed a few photos there, and will be working in earnest when "Caprica" starts up.

939 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:16:43pm

re: #911 harpsicon

I think you can stop people like Rick Perry and the creationists, but no one really seems to like it when I point it out. You have to get involved with the party. You have to get fiscal conservatives back in the party and running for offices and position in the party. You get these people out of office through elections. They have power because fiscal conservatives have allowed it.

Now- it's a downward death spiral as more fisc-cons leave the party because of the influence of the soc-cons. And the soc-cons lose elections and more fisc-cons stay home disgusted, and the soc-cons think we need more social conservatism, not less, so more people stay home, and the soc-cons get more power to run losing elections.

940 IslandLibertarian  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:17:08pm

re: #863 Sharmuta

The Lizards are a higher form of blogosphere life.

I'll bet they think that about themselves at Kos and HuffPo and MediaMatters and etc...etc...etc...
"We're numbah wun!"

/creepy.............

941 J.S.  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:17:12pm

re: #926 jaunte

yeah, if a certain pharaoh was the world's first antisemite, then it's more like 3,300 years...

942 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:17:45pm

re: #912 BatGuano

A liberal who quotes Ayn Rand, Doesn't understand.

Her books were a major influence on me. I hate labels BTW, liberal, conservative, and the rest. I'm conservative on some issues, liberal on others.

943 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:17:54pm

re: #915 reine.de.tout

The Roi will not go to movies with me. I sometimes will go in the middle of the day, by myself, if it's something I really want to see and isn't the sort of movie that requires a movie partner - otherwise I wait for netflix.

But this movie requires a movie partner, imo.

Yes, a partner who knows a reasonable amount of what is going on.
Mr. Tiger drove me nuts watching Lord of the Rings.

944 mich-again  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:17:57pm

re: #906 avanti

I can live with the progressive tax rates but there is a point on the Laffer Curve where the higher rates will only result in lower revenues collected and thats a politician's worst nightmare right there.

But I really don't like the concept of the earned income credit. People get a larger refund than what they even paid in. Thats BS.

945 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:18:02pm

muzak....chill

946 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:18:27pm

re: #934 iceweasel

We can agree they're all demeaning. That doesn't vitiate my point about language and the way we use it, and what that means.

It is the way you interpret the language. Some sounds OK to you and some hurts your feelings. To me it is all the same.

947 jaunte  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:18:50pm

re: #941 J.S.

To Walter's point, the age of a thing is no real gauge of its justice.

948 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:18:56pm

re: #942 avanti

Her books were a major influence on me. I hate labels BTW, liberal, conservative, and the rest. I'm conservative on some issues, liberal on others.

other than that, do you dig Alvin Lee?

949 harpsicon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:19:17pm

re: #889 mich-again

Do you really think the best course for the USA regarding education is to eliminate public schools? I disagree. Public schools can be very successful. My children are all the evidence I need. My son who started college this year was more prepared than I was after 12 years of expensive Catholic Schools. Why blow the whole system up because some people can't figure out how to do their job or just don't care enough to do it. That's why you fire people and elect different board members if they won't fire them. I think the successful schools all have diligent involved parents and communities. And Vice Versa.

All true, but would be just as true, or more true, in a private system. The teachers you love would still be there. Some schools will be successful, indeed, but I'm willing to bet that the same parents in a private system (where they had their tax money to spend) could make something even better.

And there would be no threat of Creationists or any other -ists imposing their way on you.

I was public schooled in the Golden Age of the NYC suburbs. You can't get the education I got for love or money today (well, maybe, but it would be hard, and all these civics tests that Harvard kids fail prove my point). There are too many political restrictions, starting with that the best teachers can't be kept by paying them more. So you only get altruistic great teachers, who are a decidedly special subset.

Nobody's blowing anything up. As far as the cities are concerned the system imploded, or exploded if you will, long ago!

950 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:19:46pm

It's not slang! Nev. court permits 'HOE' license
Jul 8, 5:10 PM (ET)
By BRENDAN RILEY

CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) - A Las Vegas man won a courtroom battle Wednesday with the Nevada Department of Motor Vehicles over his "HOE" license plate, which the agency refused to renew on grounds that he was using a slang reference to prostitutes.

The high court said the DMV based its refusal of William Junge's plate on definitions found in the Web-based Urban Dictionary, which includes user contributions. It ruled that the contributed definitions "do not always reflect generally accepted definitions for words."

Junge, whose suit was represented by the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, said he had the personalized plate from 1999 to 2006, when the DMV refused to let him renew it.

He said he wanted "TAHOE" for the plate on his 1999 Chevy Tahoe, but it wasn't available so he settled for "HOE." For his plate background, he picked one with a Lake Tahoe panorama.

951 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:20:25pm

re: #919 tradewind

And she should follow it up with a book written by a former schoolmate of mine...Being Dead is No Excuse...
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Just ordered it.
Can't wait to get it.

952 Truck Monkey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:20:55pm

re: #930 reine.de.tout

It is under consideration.

I love doing things that aggravate my daughter, since she is convinced that it is my sole purpose in life, the only reason God put me on this earth.

I've always joked with my son that he will be mortified that he even knows me much less that I am his dad. I've been joking with him this way since he was old enough to understand what I was talking about. The other day I got a call at home from my son from the basketball court and he says that his buddies are up there along with some girls, and that he wanted me to come pick him up in the old car, and could I please wear my hideous bermuda shorts along with black socks and sandals. He was serious. Now 13 and growing too fast, he still thinks his old man is cool and I love him for it!

953 J.S.  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:21:22pm

re: #947 jaunte

Precisely, it's fallacious reasoning (as Walter pointed out).

954 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:21:51pm

re: #943 VioletTiger

Yes, a partner who knows a reasonable amount of what is going on.
Mr. Tiger drove me nuts watching Lord of the Rings.

I guess it's too much to hope for that you actually live close by and we could become movie partners.
*sigh*

955 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:22:15pm

re: #888 Truck Monkey

A great economics lesson (even for non-thinkers)

As the late Dr; Adrian Rogers said, "you cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

This professor is a Genius

An

economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never

failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class.

That class had insisted that Obama's socialism would work and that

no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this

class on Obama's plan".

All grades would be averaged and everyone

would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive

an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone

got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who

studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the

students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied

hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second

test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled

around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as

bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one

would study for the benefit of anyone else.

All failed, to their

great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also

ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is

great. But when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or

want to succeed.

Could it be any simpler?

This is The Teleprompter Jesus' plan for America. It has never, and will never work no matter how you slice it.

This story is apocryphal, right? Or did it really happen?

Seems to me that "grading on a curve" is a better approximation of socialism than numerically averaging the grades.

956 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:23:18pm

re: #936 VioletTiger

But maybe the guy with a million would like to have 800K left. I'll go out on a limb here and say he earned it, and he should get to keep it as much as the guy who earned the 40k would like to keep it. Who are we to say either of them don't deserve to keep the same share of it?

In theory I agree with you, but the top few percent of the income earners pay 80% of the taxes now. I don't see a GOP candidate winning by cutting the taxes of millionaires and raising the middle class by 50% for example.
If you can figure out a flat tax that works without loosing the middle class you'd be on to something.

957 albusteve  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:23:18pm

re: #952 Truck Monkey

I've always joked with my son that he will be mortified that he even knows me much less that I am his dad. I've been joking with him this way since he was old enough to understand what I was talking about. The other day I got a call at home from my son from the basketball court and he says that his buddies are up there along with some girls, and that he wanted me to come pick him up in the old car, and could I please wear my hideous bermuda shorts along with black socks and sandals. He was serious. Now 13 and growing too fast, he still thinks his old man is cool and I love him for it!

my kids think I'm the coolest old fuck that ever came down the pike...life is good

958 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:23:31pm

re: #952 Truck Monkey

I've always joked with my son that he will be mortified that he even knows me much less that I am his dad. I've been joking with him this way since he was old enough to understand what I was talking about. The other day I got a call at home from my son from the basketball court and he says that his buddies are up there along with some girls, and that he wanted me to come pick him up in the old car, and could I please wear my hideous bermuda shorts along with black socks and sandals. He was serious. Now 13 and growing too fast, he still thinks his old man is cool and I love him for it!

that's a great story!
By the time my daughter was in 7th grade, she was hiding her face when the Roi would pick her up from school in his comfy clothes.

959 kansas  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:23:42pm

re: #950 FurryOldGuyJeans

It's not slang! Nev. court permits 'HOE' license
Jul 8, 5:10 PM (ET)
By BRENDAN RILEY

Reminds me this websites; gotahoe.com. Saw on Leno I think.

960 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:23:45pm

re: #942 avanti

Her books were a major influence on me. I hate labels BTW, liberal, conservative, and the rest. I'm conservative on some issues, liberal on others.

I still haven't figured you out avanti. You occasionally sound conservative on some things, but your robin hood attitude is anything but.

961 harpsicon  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:25:08pm

re: #939 Sharmuta

I think you can stop people like Rick Perry and the creationists, but no one really seems to like it when I point it out. You have to get involved with the party. You have to get fiscal conservatives back in the party and running for offices and position in the party. You get these people out of office through elections. They have power because fiscal conservatives have allowed it.

Now- it's a downward death spiral as more fisc-cons leave the party because of the influence of the soc-cons. And the soc-cons lose elections and more fisc-cons stay home disgusted, and the soc-cons think we need more social conservatism, not less, so more people stay home, and the soc-cons get more power to run losing elections.

In other words, I have to get involved in politics to get a neutral education for my kids? Don't have the time, inclination, or energy! And the Dems are decidedly worse, so that's not an option. TX has a devoted bunch of these Creationist types, so really I'd have to go organize an equally devoted bunch of anti-Creationists! Ugh...

With an all-private system this all goes away, and the Creationists' kids get to have the education their parents want them to have. I wonder how many would survive, prosper, change, etc. Would be an interesting study.

962 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:25:18pm

Internet, globalization shape new words
Published: July 9, 2009 at 6:47 PM

NEW YORK, July 9 (UPI) -- New words added to the Merriam-Webster Collegiate dictionary show the influence of the Internet and globalization on U.S. English, its publishers said.

A sample list of 100 new words released by the publisher Thursday includes some words and expressions that have been around for years or even decades but have gained wider currency because of the Internet, The Guardian reported. They include "sock puppet," coined as early as 1959, and "flash mob," which can be traced to 1987.

963 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:26:03pm

re: #959 kansas

Reminds me this websites; gotahoe.com. Saw on Leno I think.

When I first saw the article title I thought, "who the fuck could object to a garden hoe?"

964 freetoken  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:26:11pm

re: #939 Sharmuta

Sharmuta - Not sure that is the problem on the ground in TX. While out here in California one could find a group of SoCons who are not fiscal conservatives, and many FiCons who are not SoCons, my impression is that down in TX the two groups greatly overlap (except for the die-hard libertarians.)

In other words, nearly all the SoCons in TX are also going to be FiCons.

Here I will agree with Killian (shocker!), that the likes of Dunbar will simply be stopped in their agenda by the federal courts.

Dunbar presents though a chilling example of where a state political machine turns toward ideologues in order to satisfy the donators, which in turn brings on even greater social division from which even more political fervor can be mined to further empower the political puppet-masters.

Perhaps Perry will surprise us and go with the modernist Republican on the board? I would expect there are hidden political paybacks of which we will never know.

965 Truck Monkey  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:27:10pm

re: #955 ShanghaiEd

Actually it was in an e-mail sent to me. I'd rather doubt that the story is true as I do not see a whole class falling for this kind of foolishness. I have no doubt that were it true the outcome would be as illustrated.

966 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:27:12pm

re: #955 ShanghaiEd

This story is apocryphal, right? Or did it really happen?

Seems to me that "grading on a curve" is a better approximation of socialism than numerically averaging the grades.

Sounds like an urban legend to me. BTW, I have heard similar urban legends that use 'grading on a curve' to make the same point (albeit long before Obama)

967 sagehen  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:29:14pm

re: #792 LionOfDixon


Combined with the fact that the rich use far less of the government's resources than the poor, the arguments for the flat tax and/or national sales tax vice the present system, become ever-more sound and strong.


In 1906, the president Roosevelt told Congress: "The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the state, because he derives special advantage from the mere existence of government,” he said. And the man of great wealth “should assume his full and proper share of the burden of taxation.”

[Link: www.forbes.com...]

968 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:29:45pm

re: #965 Truck Monkey

Actually it was in an e-mail sent to me. I'd rather doubt that the story is true as I do not see a whole class falling for this kind of foolishness. I have no doubt that were it true the outcome would be as illustrated.

One thing-- you'd be surprised how many A students would continue to do A work in that situation. Those are the same kids who do every assignment and paper even when they figure out that their grades are trending so high they could leave one out.
Some people do have an innate drive towards excellence regardless of any reward. It's an internal work ethic thing.

969 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:30:04pm

re: #960 VioletTiger

I still haven't figured you out avanti. You occasionally sound conservative on some things, but your robin hood attitude is anything but.

Maybe if I'd ever lived in the top tax brackets, I'd be as anti Robin Hood as the rest of of you. Taxes to me, are like bugs, I don't like them, but they are not going away.

970 JacksonTn  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:31:16pm

re: #969 avanti

Maybe if I'd ever lived in the top tax brackets, I'd be as anti Robin Hood as the rest of of you. Taxes to me, are like bugs, I don't like them, but they are not going away.

Avanti ... you get a big FUCK YOU for that ... if you knew how much some of us who are in the upper brackets give to charity you might be surprised ... you are a fool ... maybe we just don't like being told "who" to give our money to ...

971 scion9  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:38:27pm

re: #893 Sharmuta

I agree that the use of language can be instructive, but I think that a lot of what gets put forward on this particular topic amounts to pop sociology. I think there is a lot more 'history' involved in the reasons why certain words are more offensive, and why profanity isn't exactly egalitarian. It didn't all spring from modern minds as being emblematic of sexism and that you have insults that defy the 'rule' being put forward.

A quick example is the usage of the gender-neutral in denotation "bastard" that is almost exclusively directed at men, in both derogatory phrases and colloquialisms. There are some historical reasons why legitimate parentage was more important for male children, but it's not as if female bastards were ever socially acceptable and it should have been effective as an equal opportunity offender. It's only makes sense in its lopsided representation because people repeat what they hear, and it would just be odd to call a women a bastard. Even more befuddling is that a group of women can be bastards, in the plural, with no corresponding oddity.

The whole issue of how languages shift and colloquialisms including insults and profanity form, and cultural transmission is seriously complex. I think it's fun to talk about, and question the why of things, but any serious statements on the topic that can even begin to amount to fact should probably be left up to more serious scholarship. I've found that these things (the modern understanding of even common phrases) tend to wind up being rather counter-intuitive when more deeply explored.

972 avanti  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:39:10pm

re: #966 iceweasel

Sounds like an urban legend to me. BTW, I have heard similar urban legends that use 'grading on a curve' to make the same point (albeit long before Obama)

It is, from at least 15 years agoUL.

973 tradewind  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43:22pm

re: #866 Dahveed

Not in TOTUS' America.

974 jvic  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43:56pm

re: #602 Bloodnok

Where did the goalposts go?

I'm stealing this line.

975 sagehen  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:50:44pm

re: #906 avanti

Because the progressive tax has been a feature of the code for over 75 years and though all the POTUS's. The theory being the more you earn the less pain it will cause you. If you make 40K a year, a 20% rate leaves you 32K, if you make a million, the 34 % rate leaves you 660K.

Adam Smith supported a progressive tax.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

976 BatGuano  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:53:09pm

re: #942 avanti

Her books were a major influence on me. I hate labels BTW, liberal, conservative, and the rest. I'm conservative on some issues, liberal on others.

I apologize if I misjudged you. Do you agree with Ayn Rand's concept of liberty?

977 tradewind  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:56:11pm

re: #935 reine.de.tout
Every now and then I get the urge to stand on the corner and pass out copies of this one.
Haven't done it yet..
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

978 scion9  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:06:23pm

re: #969 avanti

Maybe if I'd ever lived in the top tax brackets, I'd be as anti Robin Hood as the rest of of you. Taxes to me, are like bugs, I don't like them, but they are not going away.

I'd be all for Robin Hood, as someone way, way below your place on the economic totem pole if it actually benefited me. There is no welfare for people even in the bottom tax brackets even in this very blue state we live in unless you are a minority or single mother, of which I am neither. I see no true 'tax cuts' from the Bush years, and with the economic downturn and the draconian taxes put on my million employers will see them cutting 'expenses' such as all those 'extra' hours I would normally be working in order to make ends meat.

Of course dozens if not hundreds of bureaucrats are going to be hired at the State level with all of that stimulus money, at 'rich' six figure salaries according to what I have read. The position being advocated isn't Robin Hood, it's Dennis Moore.

Also your interpretation of Randian philosophy is way off. The concept is rational self-interest, not unbridled self-interest, the latter being what you have essentially advocated on this thread. It's certainly wise to look after your own interests, but not at the expense of destroying the ability to continue to do so into the future. See the tragedy of the commons, with the economy as a 'commonly owned good'. Every shepherd needs to do their best with what they have at hand, but they also need to tend the pasture.

Even further off track, 'Robin Hood-ism' is really the polar opposite of rational self-interest. The latter stance almost being a vaguely Taoist philosophy of 'the world would be a better place if everyone wasn't always trying to make it a better place'. The Robin Hoods can't be said to be stealing from the rich to give to the poor in rational or direct self-interested way. It is a method of promoting a common good or promoting equity. The Randian stance is that such things should be done sparsely and not systematically.

979 irongrampa  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:07:54pm

Actually, rational self interest, practiced legally morally and ethically makes a great deal of sense--to me, anyway.

980 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:43:01pm

re: #961 harpsicon

In other words, I have to get involved in politics to get a neutral education for my kids? Don't have the time, inclination, or energy! And the Dems are decidedly worse, so that's not an option. TX has a devoted bunch of these Creationist types, so really I'd have to go organize an equally devoted bunch of anti-Creationists! Ugh...

With an all-private system this all goes away, and the Creationists' kids get to have the education their parents want them to have. I wonder how many would survive, prosper, change, etc. Would be an interesting study.

And how much easier would it be for you to organize enough people to completely close down the public school system, considering all those people who would want to retain it?

Plus, if you slice that vestige of equality of opportunity out of our society, the resultant social stratification, and the massive and understandable popular ire that the quite reasonably perceived unfairness of it would provoke, would eventually spell our democracy's doom. You couldn't hand the leveling leftists a better weapon if you had Antonio Gramsci himself design it. And then everybody would lose, big-time. Including you.

981 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:55:15pm

re: #956 avanti

In theory I agree with you, but the top few percent of the income earners pay 80% of the taxes now. I don't see a GOP candidate winning by cutting the taxes of millionaires and raising the middle class by 50% for example.

If you can figure out a flat tax that works without loosing the middle class you'd be on to something.

I have a sneaking intuition that the maximum revenue sweet spots - the points at which either raising taxes or lowering them produces less revenue - are a pretty good barometer, for each income bracket, of what amount of taxation a tipping point majority of people inhabiting that bracket will acquiesce to willingly bear. I'm amazed that an economics PhD hasn't undertaken a research program in order to derive a formula that tells us what those sweet spots are, given other variables such as cost of living, interest rate, inflation rate, unemployment rate, etc., so that a law could be passed that automatically varied the federal tax rates based on the natural economic changes in these variables, both to perpetually maximally fund our government and to ensure that a sustaining percentage of our citizenry remained accepting of them.

982 sagehen  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 9:01:59pm

re: #981 Salamantis

I'm amazed that an economics PhD hasn't undertaken a research program in order to derive a formula that tells us what those sweet spots are, given other variables such as cost of living, interest rate, inflation rate, unemployment rate, etc., so that a law could be passed that automatically varied the federal tax rates based on the natural economic changes in these variables, both to perpetually maximally fund our government and to ensure that a sustaining percentage of our citizenry remained accepting of them.

But it probably varies by whether government spending is on things you like or don't like, and different places aren't uniform in their ranking of the relative importance of libraries and parks and police.

983 RunningBare  Thu, Jul 9, 2009 9:14:47pm

re: #247 Sharmuta

No- you're pushing a logical fallacy- that's weak. You claim they all do it, so give me a link.

Ok, how about an example? Remember McCain-Feingold? Remember how so many republicans and democrats were questioning the constitutionality of the bill? But they chose to vote for it anyway, figuring it would get overturned by the courts when challenged? Why did they vote for it, then? Because it was "feel good" legislation, and all about appearing to do something, not caring whether it was constitutional, or a reasonable use of federal power. It was all about feeling good about themselves, getting power, getting re-elected, protecting themselves etc...

Is Nationalized Health Care constitutional? I doubt it. But, just like everything else, they will (both parties do this) use the "Interstate Commerce" clause as a "cover" for wanting to expand federal power.

They dont' even READ the frigging bills they vote on anymore. So, how are they even thinking whether they are constitutional or not? They dont' care enough to read the bills...

Maybe you have some favorite politician that you can't stand criticism of, and that is where your hostility towards me comes from, because you have personalized - Maybe I somehow insulted them by pointing out that they are the same as any other politician?

I know... I know... You'll answer me with something clever like "Weak" or "Bullshit", and all your friends will high five you, etc... but hey, I don't care about your approval, or being popular here. I'm here to have fun, talk politics with people, and state my opinions, which you may disagree with or not. And frankly, I dont' care if you agree with me, like me, ignore me, or insult me. Do whatever makes you happy.

984 shira  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:58:52am

A "sincere knowledge and appreciation for the Word of God," huh?

Does that mean that everyone who wants to govern in that area needs to learn biblical Hebrew and Aramaic?

985 harpsicon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 8:26:22am

re: #980 Salamantis

And how much easier would it be for you to organize enough people to completely close down the public school system, considering all those people who would want to retain it?

Plus, if you slice that vestige of equality of opportunity out of our society, the resultant social stratification, and the massive and understandable popular ire that the quite reasonably perceived unfairness of it would provoke, would eventually spell our democracy's doom. You couldn't hand the leveling leftists a better weapon if you had Antonio Gramsci himself design it. And then everybody would lose, big-time. Including you.

THAT would be worth fighting for - otherwise it's just one interest group vs. another, with no guarantee of any permanent outcome, just momentary advantage which can be undone at the next election.

Looking at the outcome of public education, which unquestionably results in social stratification, terrible education for the poor, bloated and inefficient bureaucracies - how would "everybody" lose if these were abolished!

Clear your mind here! Public education may be a "sign" of social equality, but the hard evidence points at an entirely opposite outcome!

986 RoughRider  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 9:11:51am

Gail Lowe appointed new TX Board of Ed chair

Lowe, whose term as chairwoman will expire in February 2011, is considered a member of the board's social conservative bloc that has frequently been at odds with Democrats and more moderate Republicans. However, she also has been more willing to compromise on certain issues than other members of the group, made up of seven Republicans.

987 Going_gone  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 9:49:33am

All these posts about Texas creationists makes me wonder if the writer actually knows any Texans or is relying on typical liberal anti-Texas bigotry on which to base his views?

988 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 9:53:29am

re: #987 Going_gone

I rely on things we call "facts."

989 Eowyn2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 10:50:17am

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

It is a fair question whether someone who home-schooled their own children should be permitted to sit on a public school board.

Should someone who's children attend private schools be allowed to sit on a public school board?

Should people without children be allowed to sit on a public school board?

990 RunningBare  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 10:56:25am

re: #989 Eowyn2

Should someone who's children attend private schools be allowed to sit on a public school board?

Should people without children be allowed to sit on a public school board?

I think anyone who pays taxes to support the aforementioned schools, and lives in the district, should be eligible to be elected to a school board, or any other public taxpayer-funded board.

991 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:15:19am

I don't think there's any inherent problem with having someone who home-schools their children on a school board.

But in this case, Dunbar apparently believes public education is a tool of the devil.

That, I think, is a problem for someone who will be in charge of public education.

992 RunningBare  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:12:21pm

re: #991 Charles

I don't think there's any inherent problem with having someone who home-schools their children on a school board.

But in this case, Dunbar apparently believes public education is a tool of the devil.

That, I think, is a problem for someone who will be in charge of public education.

Fair enough. I also think, were this an elected position, she'd not win.

993 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:02:28pm

re: #985 harpsicon

THAT would be worth fighting for - otherwise it's just one interest group vs. another, with no guarantee of any permanent outcome, just momentary advantage which can be undone at the next election.

Looking at the outcome of public education, which unquestionably results in social stratification, terrible education for the poor, bloated and inefficient bureaucracies - how would "everybody" lose if these were abolished!

Clear your mind here! Public education may be a "sign" of social equality, but the hard evidence points at an entirely opposite outcome!

What hard evidence? The historical evidence is that the vast majority people who have not themselves received the prerequisite education necessary to prosper in life have not been able to afford to pay for such education for their kids, and those who do not finish the equivalent of high school yet still manage to prosper to such a degree are a miniscule minority of dropouts. And of course the kids of such impoverished parents would also be illiterate and poor and unable to send their kids to school, and their kids would likewise be, and so on ad nauseum ad infinitum...it's called a socially stratified and institutionalized permanent underclass, just as I contended.

You would return us to the days of mobs of Dickensian street urchins stealing and robbing and begging and selling their bodies for food, just as can be seen today in the slums of Rio De Janeiro, where it is not possible for them to attend the few free public schools that exist, due to a lack of transportation (and whose teachers are paid minimum wage). And then there would be the cost of imprisoning them, for a much longer time than free public schooling would take, rather than receiving revenue from educated and employed taxpayers.

As soon as these apodictically entailed catastrophically disastrous consequences began to manifest themselves, your travestous plan would itself be undone, by overwhelming popular demand. Which is why it should never be done in the first place.


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 121 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 282 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1