Zombie: Obama’s Science Czar and ‘Ecoscience’

Politics • Views: 6,763

Zombie has a report on the book Ecoscience, co-authored by Barack Obama’s “science czar” John Holdren (with Paul Ehrlich and Anne Ehrlich) in 1977, and its radical advocacy of mass sterilization and forced abortion to solve a looming overpopulation crisis — that never actually materialized: John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar, says: Forced abortions and mass sterilization needed to save the planet.

We should note that the book was written 32 years ago, Holdren was not the only author (and the other authors are known for radical opinions on these issues), and the context — as far as I can tell from reading Zombie’s excerpts — is that these extreme measures would be taken in response to a massive crisis situation.

Still, these are pretty outrageous opinions by most people’s standards, and Holdren should be given a chance to explain or renounce them.

What I find most disturbing is Holdren’s apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump directly from that into recommending totalitarian measures — and 32 years later, he and his co-authors were very clearly wrong in their alarmism.

It raises the question of whether John Holdren is the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

UPDATE at 7/10/09 6:40:11 pm:

LGF reader “freetoken” points out this video at a Senate Commerce Committee website, of the nomination hearing for John Holdren, in which he addresses his associations with Paul Ehrlich; the segment in question begins at about 116:10. (The first 30 minutes of this video are an unchanging title screen for some unknown governmental reason, so skip ahead by clicking the playback progress bar.)

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825 comments
1 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:06:07am

This just in from the White House, That's not the John Holdren I know.

2 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:06:18am
3 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:06:58am

Under the bus in 5,4,3,2.....

4 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:07:53am

It's been awhile since I read it, but this kinda reminds me of Nature's End by Whitley Strieber

/still trying to find a decent plot summary of it online

5 J.D.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:08:34am
All enrichment of uranium for nuclear power would be carried out by an international body to guard against nuclear proliferation, under a proposal to be considered by President Obama.

Professor John Holdren, the White House’s chief science adviser, said yesterday that placing uranium enrichment under international control could eliminate one of the main avenues by which rogue states and terrorists could obtain material for making atomic bombs. ...


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Barack Obama adviser wants uranium enrichment under international control
Be sure to send them the notice through registered mail.

6 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:09:08am

I understand the White House is accepting question on this issue via email and will respond to the best questions they've selected at a later date.

/

7 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:09:23am

Will people still deny that Obama is surrounding himself with extremist whackos? Of course they will.

8 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:09:24am

It seems to me that Holdren (along with his co-authors) are willing to take draconian measures to remedy preceived crises. Given that, I would be wary of his mindset regarding the willingness to use draconian measures to preceived crises in the future, regardless of the crisis.

9 researchok  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:10:33am

I don't see how John Holdren can explain away those outrageous remarks.

He'd have to renounce them in their entirety.

If he had any decency, he'd step down.

10 onslow  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:10:38am

I'll bet Holdren is not a 2nd Amendment stalwart.

11 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:11:08am

Paul Erhlich anyone? The Population Bomb

That was all the rage when I was in high school....we are running out of oil, not. We are going to overpopulate the earth and all die of starvation (even after we turn to cannibalism). And, forget about global warming, it was the NEXT ICE AGE that was going to kill us all. Times sure have changed, eh?

12 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:11:12am
13 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:11:18am

Here we go...

“A massive campaign must be launched to restore a high-quality environment in North America and to de-develop the United States. . . . Resources and energy must be diverted from frivolous and wasteful uses in overdeveloped countries to filling the genuine needs of underdeveloped countries. This effort must be largely political.”

- John Holdren, Anne Ehrlich, and Paul Ehrlich, Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions (San Francisco; W.H. Freeman and Company, 1973), p. 279.

14 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:11:31am

re: #5 J.D.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Barack Obama adviser wants uranium enrichment under international control
Be sure to send them the notice through registered mail.

Because I'm sure no country would every work to secretly go around an international organization.

Fucking idiots.

15 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:11:38am

re: #9 researchok

I don't see how John Holdren can explain away those outrageous remarks.

He'd have to renounce them in their entirety.

If he had any decency, he'd step down.

If he had any decency he wouldn't qualify as an adviser to President 0bama.

16 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:11:48am

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I understand the White House is accepting question on this issue via email and will respond to the best questions they've selected at a later date.

/

They will post their decision online for all to see....transparency and honesty is what you can expect!

/

17 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:13:08am

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

It seems to me that Holdren (along with his co-authors) are willing to take draconian measures to remedy preceived crises. Given that, I would be wary of his mindset regarding the willingness to use draconian measures to preceived crises in the future, regardless of the crisis.

The thing is, even in 1977, the Erlichs and Holdren had to know there was no crisis. The nonsense about "by 1970, the battle to feed humanity will be over."

It was, but not as Erlich meant. It wearies me that Holdren - who ought to have known better - would subscribe to such an hysterical view.

If you ever wonder why I get so impatient with "Waily! Waily! We're doomed!", now you do.

18 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:14:15am

re: #15 soxfan4life

If he had any decency he wouldn't qualify as an adviser to President 0bama.

Now do we need to know what his tax payment situation is?

19 nyc redneck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:14:19am

o picks so many radicals w/ really bad ideas.
does he know any regular decent people who love this country?

20 KingKenrod  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:14:21am

The only kind of renouncement I'd like to see is a complete renouncement of the ideology that leads someone to think the state can legitimately hold powers like forced sterilization and forced abortion.

For instance, the way David Horowitz has renounced Marxism.

Anything short of that is just excuses and spin control.

21 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:14:26am

“Only one rational path is open to us—simultaneous de-development of the [overdeveloped countries] and semi-development of the underdeveloped countries (UDC’s), in order to approach a decent and ecologically sustainable standard of living for all in between. By de-development we mean lower per-capita energy consumption, fewer gadgets, and the abolition of planned obsolescence.”

- John Holdren and Paul Ehrlich, “Introduction,” in Holdren and Ehrlich, eds., Global Ecology, 1971, p. 3.

No Intarwebs for you!

22 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:15:02am

This is why we have the Second Amendment. The responsibility to maintain the liberty does not rest on the government, it rests on the American people as a whole, who would never have gone for something like this.

23 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:15:23am

re: #19 nyc redneck

o picks so many radicals w/ really bad ideas.
does he know any regular decent people who love this country?

He knows one who has been proud of it. Once.

24 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:15:40am

re: #18 FurryOldGuyJeans

Now do we need to know what his tax payment situation is?

Taxes are only for the little people.

25 jill e  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:16:05am

How about this from Power Line:

Without looking ahead to the end, guess who said this, in an interview that will be published on Sunday:

"Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don't want to have too many of. So that Roe was going to be then set up for Medicaid funding for abortion. Which some people felt would risk coercing women into having abortions when they didn't really want them. But when the court decided McRae, the case came out the other way. And then I realized that my perception of it had been altogether wrong."

That was Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, in an interview to be published Sunday in the New York Times Magazine. Of course, the interviewer didn't ask what "populations" those might be. For a moment, at least, we catch of glimpse of what some liberals really think about abortion.

26 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:16:06am

re: #13 jaunte

Here we go...

“A massive campaign must be launched to restore a high-quality environment in North America and to de-develop the United States. . . . Resources and energy must be diverted from frivolous and wasteful uses in overdeveloped countries to filling the genuine needs of underdeveloped countries. This effort must be largely political.”

- John Holdren, Anne Ehrlich, and Paul Ehrlich, Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions (San Francisco; W.H. Freeman and Company, 1973), p. 279.

Wonder what the definition is of "frivolous and wasteful uses".
iPhones?
iPods?
Any TV not run by the state?
Hot and cold running water?
Indoor plumbing?
A/C in the summer; heat in the winter?
Transportation and travel?
General comfort?

27 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:16:32am

Posted this on previous thread (Paraphrase myself..hehe.):

"I guess we now know where President O's affection for infanticide comes from..."

28 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:16:40am

re: #21 jaunte

He wanted "fewer gadgets" in 1971?
That's kinda like complaining about traffic in the 1920's.

29 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:16:43am

re: #21 jaunte

“Only one rational path is open to us—simultaneous de-development of the [overdeveloped countries] and semi-development of the underdeveloped countries (UDC’s), in order to approach a decent and ecologically sustainable standard of living for all in between. By de-development we mean lower per-capita energy consumption, fewer gadgets, and the abolition of planned obsolescence.”

- John Holdren and Paul Ehrlich, “Introduction,” in Holdren and Ehrlich, eds., Global Ecology, 1971, p. 3.

No Intarwebs for you!

Of course, we will still need a group of wise men to lead us....and, they will need their gadgets and technology and limos and private jets and big carbon munching mansions, etc, etc....you know, so they can rule over us with benevolence and love.

30 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:16:50am

re: #21 jaunte

“Only one rational path is open to us—simultaneous de-development of the [overdeveloped countries] and semi-development of the underdeveloped countries (UDC’s), in order to approach a decent and ecologically sustainable standard of living for all in between. By de-development we mean lower per-capita energy consumption, fewer gadgets, and the abolition of planned obsolescence.”

- John Holdren and Paul Ehrlich, “Introduction,” in Holdren and Ehrlich, eds., Global Ecology, 1971, p. 3.

No Intarwebs for you!

Aha - the "gadgets". I knew they would be in there somewhere as frivolous and wasteful.
No Kindles for us.

31 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:17:11am

re: #17 Dianna

I too have little patience for people running around and screaming that the world is ending. Far too many times in the past, such predictions have been made, usually with a time and a date. That time and date comes to pass without event. This includes greenies, religious nuts, psychics, ancient prophesy, etc.

32 Kenneth  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:17:12am
33 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:17:14am

re: #25 jill e

How about this from Power Line:

Without looking ahead to the end, guess who said this, in an interview that will be published on Sunday:

"Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don't want to have too many of. So that Roe was going to be then set up for Medicaid funding for abortion. Which some people felt would risk coercing women into having abortions when they didn't really want them. But when the court decided McRae, the case came out the other way. And then I realized that my perception of it had been altogether wrong."

That was Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, in an interview to be published Sunday in the New York Times Magazine. Of course, the interviewer didn't ask what "populations" those might be. For a moment, at least, we catch of glimpse of what some liberals really think about abortion.

20 bucks she was talking about 'whitey'...
//?

34 james37211  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:17:27am
We should note that the book was written 32 years ago,

and, pray tell, how long did Josef Mengele live after the war?
You laugh? - the O is stacking the deck.

35 KenJen  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:17:41am

Very scary and Naziesque.

36 nyc redneck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:17:45am

re: #27 Oh no...Sand People!

Posted this on previous thread (Paraphrase myself..hehe.):

"I guess we now know where President O's affection for infanticide comes from..."

"punished w/ a baby" takes on even worse connotations.

37 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:17:53am

OK, I know that I am going to take a lot of heat for this, but I would like to pose this as a thought question.

Suppose, just suppose, we actually did reach a point where there were more people on the Earth than the Earth could feed. This is not utterly stupid to propose. The Earth is finite, it can only produce so much food per year.

Before we got to that point though, there would be more people on the planet than there would be potable water.

From what I have read, the "magic number" for this, following current trends - and *not* taking pollution into account is about 12 billion souls. Even if the magic number is 14 or 20 billion it does not matter to this argument. At some point, you can imagine that there are more people than resources. Yes, this is Malthusian. Calling it that does not make the facts that people need water and food - and that there is only so much on a given planet, go away.

If people can not get water, they will die. This is not arguable. If people are desperate for food and water, something so utterly basic, they have absolutely nothing to loose if they try to take it. The other option is death by dehydration or starvation. Telling them to just behave and die quietly is not a real option.

So, imagine that we are approaching that point? What is the most humane thing to do?

the problem is very simple, more mouths than food.

You can do nothing. At this point, you really will have a law of the jungle. The people with the best guns will will kill the people who want the resources and the population problem gets solved by war.

Or perhaps you can limit the amount of children that people have and try to hold the population at a sustainable level. Which is more humane? Which has less suffering?

I am not saying that we are at that point. I am not saying that I want to see that point. However, this is not an outrageous view that needs to be recanted. It is an unfortunate and unhappy reality.

38 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:18:03am
39 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:18:13am

re: #29 Desert Dog

I thought we needed wise Latina women to lead us...

40 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:18:15am

Never let a good crisis go to waste...

41 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:18:45am

re: #28 Lincolntf

He wanted "fewer gadgets" in 1971?
That's kinda like complaining about traffic in the 1920's.

Back then I think it was too many televisions, am radios, and toasters.

42 latingent  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:19:21am

`These measures would only be taken in response to a massive crisis situation`
You mean like now?

43 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:19:27am

re: #31 Honorary Yooper

I too have little patience for people running around and screaming that the world is ending. Far too many times in the past, such predictions have been made, usually with a time and a date. That time and date comes to pass without event. This includes greenies, religious nuts, psychics, ancient prophesy, etc.

Y2K, and now December 2012.

Doom and Gloom sells, because those scared of bad things happening in their hysteria inevitably end up causing that what they feared.

44 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:19:50am

Here's a recent interview with Holdren:


Speaking this morning with ScienceInsider, Holdren discussed why he thinks the United States doesn't need to design and build any new nuclear weapons. He warned of likely delays beyond 2015 in replacing the space shuttle after its 2010 retirement and the possibility that U.S. astronauts, in the interim, might arrive at the international space station aboard a Chinese vehicle.[Link: blogs.sciencemag.org...]
45 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:20:07am

re: #13 jaunte

Here we go...

“A massive campaign must be launched to restore a high-quality environment in North America and to de-develop the United States. . . . Resources and energy must be diverted from frivolous and wasteful uses in overdeveloped countries to filling the genuine needs of underdeveloped countries. This effort must be largely political.”

- John Holdren, Anne Ehrlich, and Paul Ehrlich, Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions (San Francisco; W.H. Freeman and Company, 1973), p. 279.

Once again, a bunch of elite snobs telling the rest of us how to live. I vote we divert resources and energy from frivolous and wasteful uses such publishing unsubstantiated apocalyptic books and providing oxygen for Holdren and the Ehrlichs.

46 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:20:30am

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

No heat, here.

My reaction to your scenario is:

Start now and educate the girls. That lowers the rate of population increase more effectively than attempting to put an absolute lock on people's gonads.

47 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:20:31am
48 J.D.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:20:37am
...Holden's proposed cures to warming are, well, interesting. In that Harvard speech last November, he presented a "top 10" list of options. No. 1 was "limiting population," as if man was a plague upon the Earth, a major tenet of green dogma.

Never mind that with more bodies come more minds and more ideas for cleaner and more efficient technology. He does not say how we would do that. Adopt China's one-child policy perhaps?

Second on his list was reducing per capita GDP. Holden's long term goal is "equal per-capita emissions rights," meaning that a country may only emit an amount of carbon commensurate to the number of its persons, not on the basis of its production.

For example, the U.S. would be allowed to release only about 20 times as much carbon as Ecuador, although the U.S. produces 144 times the goods and services.

Interestingly, he puts nuclear power at No. 7, calling it a risky waste-producing option that includes the danger of proliferation. Never mind that here and around the world nuclear power has reduced the emission of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases by billions of tons. France gets 80% of its electricity from the atom, recycles its waste, and no one in the City of Lights glows in the dark.

And after the U.S. economy tanks, he says America and the rest of the developed world must pay "the up-front costs, offering assistance to developing countries," as they move to the new, green economy. This would be a global redistribution of wealth, but we have to spread the green around. ...


NOAA's Ark
So what if it doesn't make sense?

49 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:20:50am

The One has some Bizarre Czars!

50 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:21:06am

re: #48 J.D.

NOAA's Ark
So what if it doesn't make sense?

If it makes sense it is not apocalyptic enough.

51 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:21:13am

We should note that the book was written 32 years ago, Holdren was not the only author (and the other authors are known for radical opinions on these issues), and the context — as far as I can tell from reading Zombie’s excerpts — is that these extreme measures would be taken in response to a massive crisis situation.

Well, Obama is good at fabricating a crisis.

52 KenJen  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:21:32am

re: #42 latingent

`These measures would only be taken in response to a massive crisis situation`
You mean like now?

Liberals thrive on crisises don't they?

53 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:21:35am

re: #19 nyc redneck

o picks so many radicals w/ really bad ideas.
does he know any regular decent people who love this country?

I am sure he does...and I am sure he has them in his targets...

54 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:21:58am
Still, these are pretty outrageous opinions by most people’s standards, and Holdren should be given a chance to explain or renounce them.

Well, you see, I was at this party in the late 70's, We just got back from seeing "Alien" for the 10th time and and we had been drinking--a lot. An then the neighbors--who were, well let's say of a different socio-economic group--started complaining about how were were making too much noise. Well, we all thought they were making too many babies and that when I got this wild idea...

55 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:22:03am

I have a great idea for the writers of this book. You take the initiative and sterilize yourselves. If that works out, I may consider it. Maybe.

56 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:22:08am

re: #51 kansas

We should note that the book was written 32 years ago, Holdren was not the only author (and the other authors are known for radical opinions on these issues), and the context — as far as I can tell from reading Zombie’s excerpts — is that these extreme measures would be taken in response to a massive crisis situation.

Well, Obama is good at fabricating a crisis.

Who would be deciding when "massive crisis situation" had been reached?

57 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:22:09am

re: #51 kansas

We should note that the book was written 32 years ago, Holdren was not the only author (and the other authors are known for radical opinions on these issues), and the context — as far as I can tell from reading Zombie’s excerpts — is that these extreme measures would be taken in response to a massive crisis situation.

Well, Obama is good at fabricating a crisis.

Or utilizing one to legislate in a totally unrelated area.

58 J.S.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:22:30am

I think the author, Ben Johnson, of the FrontPageMagazine article, "Obama's Biggest Radical" (published February 27, 2009) made a very interesting observation in the introductory paragraph. Johnson wrote: "When Barack Obama nominated John P. Holdren as his Science Adviser last December 20, the president-elect stated 'promoting science isn’t just about providing resources' but 'ensuring that facts and evidence are never twisted or obscured by politics or ideology.' In nominating John Holdren, his words could scarcely have taken a more Orwellian ring." Indeed, it is Obama's obfuscation (if not outright lies) about his appointees that's equally problematic. I find it astounding. (and, note, the press ignores all of this?)

59 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:22:31am

re: #46 Dianna

No heat, here.

My reaction to your scenario is:

Start now and educate the girls. That lowers the rate of population increase more effectively than attempting to put an absolute lock on people's gonads.

That is absolutely correct. The reason that Europe and America did not have the population problems that people predicted in the 70's was precisely because more educated women who get jobs and hold careers, have fewer children.

The answer to this scenario is, and always has been, empowering women.

60 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:22:53am

re: #51 kansas

We should note that the book was written 32 years ago, Holdren was not the only author (and the other authors are known for radical opinions on these issues), and the context — as far as I can tell from reading Zombie’s excerpts — is that these extreme measures would be taken in response to a massive crisis situation.

Well, Obama is good at fabricating a crisis.

And his doomsday clock already ticked to 2000...

False Prophet of Liberalism...

61 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:22:59am

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

Raising the educational levels of women in the developing world directly correlates with a reduction in the birthrate. If you could eliminate the oppression of women, you'd soon see 2-3 children per woman vs. 6-7 as we see today. That is the best route to limiting population growth.

62 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:23:00am

re: #56 reine.de.tout

Who would be deciding when "massive crisis situation" had been reached?

Why, that would be none other than...............the Amazing O.

63 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:23:08am

re: #47 buzzsawmonkey

However, note that population growth levels seem to drop as standard of living increases. So it would seem that the way to avoid such doomsday scenarios is to try and help the more backward areas of the world ratchet themselves up a few notches.

I utterly agree, see my response to Dianna.

64 latingent  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:23:15am

re: #52 KenJen

Liberals thrive on crisises don't they?


Thrive? They invent them and then try to convince us they are real.

65 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:23:29am

re: #56 reine.de.tout

Who would be deciding when "massive crisis situation" had been reached?

Coffee pot is empty

NOT SO MUCH OF A CRISIS!

The "masses" are catching on to us

CRISIS!

66 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:23:32am

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

The most humane thing to do?
Engineering solutions well before we even reach that point. For example, the potable water problem in Southern California is being addressed as we speak. San Diego is breaking ground shortly on desalination plants that will account for about 40% of their water supplies.

67 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:23:34am

re: #56 reine.de.tout

Who would be deciding when "massive crisis situation" had been reached?

When the Republicans take the House and Senate back.....then it's time to "re-develop" certain congressional districts.....

68 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:23:47am

re: #9 researchok

I don't see how John Holdren can explain away those outrageous remarks.

He'd have to renounce them in their entirety.

If he had any decency, he'd step down.

Decency doesn't exist in the leftist lexicon. It's all about power.

69 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:24:11am

re: #55 MrSilverDragon

I have a great idea for the writers of this book. You take the initiative and sterilize yourselves. If that works out, I may consider it. Maybe.

you obviously fail to comprehend. . . this does not apply to them.
They are the elite. It applies only to those of us "they" deem not worthy.
/

70 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:24:11am

re: #13 jaunte

Here we go...

“A massive campaign must be launched to restore a high-quality environment in North America and to de-develop the United States. . . . Resources and energy must be diverted from frivolous and wasteful uses in overdeveloped countries to filling the genuine needs of underdeveloped countries. This effort must be largely political.”

- John Holdren, Anne Ehrlich, and Paul Ehrlich, Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions (San Francisco; W.H. Freeman and Company, 1973), p. 279.

Jesus. This is what the Germans planned to do to France in WWI--dismantle the industries and ship them east. This is what the Soviets wanted to do to the Germans after WWII. Do these bozos realize they are talking about committing national suicide?

71 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:24:12am

re: #61 doppelganglander

Raising the educational levels of women in the developing world directly correlates with a reduction in the birthrate. If you could eliminate the oppression of women, you'd soon see 2-3 children per woman vs. 6-7 as we see today. That is the best route to limiting population growth.

For certain. That is the answer. However, if we do not educate women and we do not raise standards of living we will see Ethiopia writ large.

72 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:24:19am

re: #43 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm reminded of this exchange:

Milton Auglund: Well I predict that the world will end at the stroke of midnight on New Year's Eve.
Dr. Peter Venkman: This year?
Milton Auglund: MmHmm.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Well that's cutting it a little bit close, isn't it? I mean, just from a sales point of view, I mean your book is just coming out, you're not gonna see any paperback sales for at least a year. It'll be at least another year before you know whether you've got that mini-series or movie of the week kind of possibilities. I mean just Devil's Advocate Milty! I mean shouldn't you have said: Hey the worlds going to end in 1992! Or better yet 1994!

73 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:24:20am

re: #55 MrSilverDragon

I have a great idea for the writers of this book. You take the initiative and sterilize yourselves. If that works out, I may consider it. Maybe.


You fail to understand that those who wrote this book need to be the ones who decide which seed gets to carry on. And if you question that you are deemed unworthy. How can us unenlightened and silly common folk be trusted with such earth shattering decisions as reproduction?

74 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:24:25am
75 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:24:34am

re: #56 reine.de.tout

Who would be deciding when "massive crisis situation" had been reached?

Not us, would be my bet.

76 jill e  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:25:15am

re: #52 KenJen

Liberals thrive on crisises don't they?

They not only thrive on crises, they've learned to profit hugely from them. And if one doesn't exist, they'll just make one up.

77 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:25:27am

re: #70 calcajun

Jesus. This is what the Germans planned to do to France in WWI--dismantle the industries and ship them east. This is what the Soviets wanted to do to the Germans after WWII. Do these bozos realize they are talking about committing national suicide?

My moonbat sense is telling me they are past the 'talking' stage...

78 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:25:34am

re: #59 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #61 doppelganglander

Yes and better technology and more created wealth. Most reasons why there are large families is to help with the farming or other labour intensive work that needs large amounts of labour. As well they need to ensure that some of their offspring live long enough to take care of them in there senior years. I bet if you mapped growth of wealth and technology in the western world you would also find a downward trend of family sizes.

79 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:25:41am

re: #70 calcajun

and to de-develop the United States


We could always give the USA back to Ward Churchill, faux indian!

I hear he has lots of time on his hands now!

80 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:25:45am

re: #59 LudwigVanQuixote

That is absolutely correct. The reason that Europe and America did not have the population problems that people predicted in the 70's was precisely because more educated women who get jobs and hold careers, have fewer children.

The answer to this scenario is, and always has been, empowering women.

Not just women, but technology brings a more stable birthrate as well. So does socio-economic factors. If we could bring clean water, better healthcare and political stability to the 3rd world, the birthrates in those areas would go down accordingly.

81 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:25:49am

re: #69 reine.de.tout

re: #73 soxfan4life

heh.
GMTA?

82 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:25:53am

re: #76 jill e

They not only thrive on crises, they've learned to profit hugely from them. And if one doesn't exist, they'll just make one up.

And get an Academy Award for it too.

83 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:25:55am

You would think they (the intellectual liberals who are currently in power) would notice that human happiness is inversely proportional to the level of force a government uses to try to control its people. It's not like there aren't hundreds of examples.

Unless, of course, human happiness is not one of their aims, which is a thought we ought to think about very, very carefully.

84 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:26:04am

re: #45 doppelganglander

What's really scary is that Holdren (and the Erlichs) have put all of their predictions/hypotheses etc. into books that Obama must be aware of. He deliberately chose a (largely discredited by history) ideologue to direct one of the most important sectors of our economy and of our future.
Is Obama as stupid as Holdren, or does he just like where Holdren ends up, with massive Governmental controls over the very existence of humanity?

85 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:26:06am

Damn...the CFR, FreeMasons, Illuminati etc, ...is sounding a step up about now...

86 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:26:43am

re: #70 calcajun

Jesus. This is what the Germans planned to do to France in WWI--dismantle the industries and ship them east. This is what the Soviets wanted to do to the Germans after WWII. Do these bozos realize they are talking about committing national suicide?

It's what the Soviets DID do after the war. They took everything that was not nailed down and a lot that was from Germany and shipped it back home.

87 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:27:14am

re: #66 Honorary Yooper

The most humane thing to do?
Engineering solutions well before we even reach that point. For example, the potable water problem in Southern California is being addressed as we speak. San Diego is breaking ground shortly on desalination plants that will account for about 40% of their water supplies.

And how do you power those plants? The fact is that matter is conserved and energy is conserved. The fact is that even at 100% efficient use of all resources, there would come a point where an unchecked population would be larger than what could be provided for. If the "magic number" turns out to be 50 billion - based on heretofore undeveloped technologies, it still does not alter the basic argument.

The only possible solution is to make it attractive to not have huge families so that those who have five kids are balanced by those who chose to have careers and only have one kid.

88 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:27:18am

re: #82 soxfan4life

And get an Academy Award for it too.

And a Nobel Peace Prize too

Two awards that are now irrelevant

89 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:27:18am

re: #68 LGoPs

Decency doesn't exist in the leftist lexicon. It's all about power.

Oh, it does exist, it just is defined vastly different so as to allow power grabs to be virtuous.

90 jill e  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:27:24am

“He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.” —George Orwell

91 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:27:41am

re: #83 EmmmieG

You would think they (the intellectual liberals who are currently in power) would notice that human happiness is inversely proportional to the level of force a government uses to try to control its people. It's not like there aren't hundreds of examples.

Unless, of course, human happiness is not one of their aims, which is a thought we ought to think about very, very carefully.


Seems as though human unhappiness, shared misery, is their aim.

92 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:27:43am

re: #79 sattv4u2

and to de-develop the United States

We could always give the USA back to Ward Churchill, faux indian!

I hear he has lots of time on his hands now!

Yeah--give the country back to the hunter-gatherers. All they'll do is build more casinos.

93 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:27:43am

re: #80 Desert Dog

GMTA?

94 Mr. E. Train  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:27:49am

Dennis Prager said it best. There is a fascistic impulse at the root of all Leftist thought. That is, 'I know better than you. I know how to spend your money better, how to employ you better, how you should live and die... I know better than you and I will force you to do it my way'.

The problem of course is that they dont. On the whole they are fools with a great deal of education and almost no wisdom.

95 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:28:39am

re: #84 Lincolntf

What's really scary is that Holdren (and the Erlichs) have put all of their predictions/hypotheses etc. into books that Obama must be aware of. He deliberately chose a (largely discredited by history) ideologue to direct one of the most important sectors of our economy and of our future.
Is Obama as stupid as Holdren, or does he just like where Holdren ends up, with massive Governmental controls over the very existence of humanity?


I suspect it's the government control that appeals to Obama and his buddies. But you raise an interesting point - why is Obama, who's only 47 years old, so thoroughly enamored with ideas that were discredited when he was a teenager? For someone who is supposed to represent a new generation and forward thinking, he is about as current as a mimeograph machine.

96 subsailor68  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:28:47am

Hi all! Just for info purposes, here's a link to the population growth rate, by country. You can alphabetize by country, or sort by growth rate.

Population Growth Rates

No comment on it, just a link for those who'd like to take a look.

;-)

97 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:28:56am

re: #71 LudwigVanQuixote

Ethiopia!

A state where the "famine" was essentially engineered? The drought was real enough, but Ethiopia's regime essentially left the Eritreans to starve in order to extinguish a simmering insurgency.

It didn't work.

98 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:28:59am

re: #90 jill e

“He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.” —George Orwell

Which is why I keep saying the Creationists are fighting the right war but the wrong battle. Leave the science classroom and get on over to social studies--that's the battleground where the left is winning bigtime.

99 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:29:04am

Zombie is quite impressive.

100 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:29:06am

re: #86 Desert Dog

It's what the Soviets DID do after the war. They took everything that was not nailed down and a lot that was from Germany and shipped it back home.

And look what they have to show for it...behold the Moskovitch!

101 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:29:08am

re: #93 BlueCanuck

No doubt :-)

102 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:29:35am

re: #73 soxfan4life

You fail to understand that those who wrote this book need to be the ones who decide which seed gets to carry on. And if you question that you are deemed unworthy. How can us unenlightened and silly common folk be trusted with such earth shattering decisions as reproduction?

Yeah! Look at Tom Lincoln and Nancy Hanks. Uneducated, backwood, probably not very attractive folks. Should they really be allowed to have children?

Or Josiah Franklin and Abiah Folger. He had already had seven when they married. What gave him the right to have more? And did he really need that many more? Surely fourteen is enough. Why would he need fifteen, let alone seventeen? None of them went to college, either, of any sort, let alone ivy league.

103 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:29:48am
We should note that the book was written 32 years ago, Holdren was not the only author (and the other authors are known for radical opinions on these issues), and the context — as far as I can tell from reading Zombie’s excerpts — is that these extreme measures would be taken in response to a massive crisis situation.

However, do note that I address every single one of these issues pre-emptively in the post itself:


For the doubters and the naysayers...

There are five possible counter-claims which you might make against this report:

1. I'm lying, Holdren wrote no such thing, and this whole page is one big hoax.
2. He may have said those things, but I'm taking them out of context.
3. He was just the co-author -- he probably didn't write these particular passages, nor did he agree with them.
4. What he said really isn't that egregious: in fact, it seems pretty reasonable.
5. He wrote all this a long time ago -- he's probably changed his views by now.

I'll address each in turn:

1. I'm lying, Holdren wrote no such thing, and this whole page is one big hoax.
Scroll to the bottom of this page, and look at the photos of the book -- especially the last two photos, showing the book opened to pages quoted in this report. Then look at the full-page scans directly above those photos, showing each page mentioned here in full, unaltered. What more proof do you need? If you're still not convinced, go to any large library and check out the book yourself, and you'll see: everything I claim here is true.

2. He may have said those things, but I'm taking them out of context.
Some have argued that the FrontPage article "takes quotes out of context," which is the very reason why I went and investigated the original book itself. Turns out that not only are the quotes not out of context, but the additional paragraphs on either side of each passage only serve to make Holdren's ideas appear even more sinister. You want context? Be careful what you ask for, because the context makes things worse.

But yes, to satisfy the curious and the doubters, the "extended passages" and full-page scans given below provide more than sufficient context for the quotes.

In truth, I weary of the "context game" in which every controversial statement is always claimed to be "out of context," and no matter how much context is then given, it's never enough, until one must present every single word someone has ever written -- at which point the reader becomes overwhelmed and loses interest. Which is the whole point of the context game to begin with.

3. He was just the co-author -- he probably didn't write these particular passages, nor did he agree with them.
First of all: If you are a co-author of a book, you are signing your name to it, and you must take responsibility for everything that is in that book. This is true for John Holdren and every other author.

But there's plenty more evidence than that. Most significantly, Holdren has held similar views for years and frequently wrote about them under his own name. It's not like these quotes are unexpected and came out of the blue -- they fit into a pattern of other Holdren writings and viewpoints.

Lastly, below I present full-page scans of the "Acknowledgments" pages in Ecoscience, and in those Acknowledgments pages are dozens of thank-yous to people at U.C. Berkeley -- where Holdren was a professor at the time. In fact, there are more acknowledgments involving Berkeley than anywhere else, and since Holdren was the only one of the three authors with a connection to Berkeley, they must be his thank-yous -- indicating that he wrote a substantial portion of the book. Even his wife is thanked.

I have no way of knowing if Holdren himself typed the exact words quoted on this page, but he certainly at a minimum edited them and gave them his stamp of approval.

...cont.

104 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:29:53am

4. What he said really isn't that egregious: in fact, it seems pretty reasonable.
Well, if you believe that, then I guess this page holds no interest for you, and you are thereby free to ignore it. But I have a suspicion that the vast majority of Americans find the views expressed by Holdren to be alarming and abhorrent.

5. He wrote all this a long time ago -- he's probably changed his views by now.
You might argue that this book was written in a different era, during which time a certain clique of radical scientists (including Holdren) were in a frenzy over what they thought at the time was a crisis so severe it threatend the whole planet: overpopulation. But all that is in the past, an embarrassing episode which Holdren might wish everyone would now forget. I mean, people change their opinions all the time. Senator Robert Byrd was once in the KKK, after all, but by now he has renounced those views. Perhaps in a similar vein John Holdren no longer believes any of the things he wrote in Ecoscience, so we can't hold them against him any more.

Unfortunately, as fas as I've been able to discover, Holdren has never disavowed or distanced himself from the views he held in the 1970s and spelled out in Ecoscience and other books. In fact, he kept writing on similar topics up until quite recently.

But yes, it is possible that Holdren has changed. Yet we'll never know until he announces his change of heart publicly. And so I say:
I challenge John Holdren to publicly renounce and disavow the opinions and recommendations he made in the book Ecoscience; and until he does so, I will hold him responsible for those statements.
It's all very well and good to say, "Oh, none of that could ever really happen in the United States," or "It's just a fantasy," and so on. But consider this: The man who advocated the policies quoted above is now in the inner circle of power in the White House, and currently advises the President on all matters involving science, medicine and technology. If you really think forced abortions could never happen here, aren't you at least a little nervous that someone who sees them as acceptable has so much power?

105 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:29:56am

re: #97 Dianna

Ethiopia!

A state where the "famine" was essentially engineered? The drought was real enough, but Ethiopia's regime essentially left the Eritreans to starve in order to extinguish a simmering insurgency.

It didn't work.

Just have a lot of wiry--and very hungry--rebels. Harder to shoot when they're that thin.//

106 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:30:09am

re: #87 LudwigVanQuixote

And how do you power those plants? The fact is that matter is conserved and energy is conserved. The fact is that even at 100% efficient use of all resources, there would come a point where an unchecked population would be larger than what could be provided for. If the "magic number" turns out to be 50 billion - based on heretofore undeveloped technologies, it still does not alter the basic argument.

The only possible solution is to make it attractive to not have huge families so that those who have five kids are balanced by those who chose to have careers and only have one kid.

Soylent Green power?

107 latingent  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:30:17am

On the whole they are fools with a great deal of education and almost no wisdom.

`new campaign slogan`

108 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:30:25am

re: #69 reine.de.tout

you obviously fail to comprehend. . . this does not apply to them.
They are the elite. It applies only to those of us "they" deem not worthy.
/

I understand all too well. As stated before, if "they" can't take the initiative for "their" ideas, then "they" are not worthy of my listening to "them".

/I think I broke my quotation button...

109 JarHeadLifer  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:30:35am

re: #1 soxfan4life

This just in from the White House, That's not the John Holdren I know.

Well done. Well done.

110 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:30:55am

re: #100 Oh no...Sand People!

And look what they have to show for it...behold the Moskovitch!

wow, a "newer" model with the "Fred Flintstone Bedrock Trim"....nice.

111 avanti  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:31:31am

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, I know that I am going to take a lot of heat for this, but I would like to pose this as a thought question.

Suppose, just suppose, we actually did reach a point where there were more people on the Earth than the Earth could feed. This is not utterly stupid to propose. The Earth is finite, it can only produce so much food per year.

Before we got to that point though, there would be more people on the planet than there would be potable water.

From what I have read, the "magic number" for this, following current trends - and *not* taking pollution into account is about 12 billion souls. Even if the magic number is 14 or 20 billion it does not matter to this argument. At some point, you can imagine that there are more people than resources. Yes, this is Malthusian. Calling it that does not make the facts that people need water and food - and that there is only so much on a given planet, go away.

If people can not get water, they will die. This is not arguable. If people are desperate for food and water, something so utterly basic, they have absolutely nothing to loose if they try to take it. The other option is death by dehydration or starvation. Telling them to just behave and die quietly is not a real option.

So, imagine that we are approaching that point? What is the most humane thing to do?

the problem is very simple, more mouths than food.

You can do nothing. At this point, you really will have a law of the jungle. The people with the best guns will will kill the people who want the resources and the population problem gets solved by war.

Or perhaps you can limit the amount of children that people have and try to hold the population at a sustainable level. Which is more humane? Which has less suffering?

I am not saying that we are at that point. I am not saying that I want to see that point. However, this is not an outrageous view that needs to be recanted. It is an unfortunate and unhappy reality.

Not from me, I did a bit of research on the book (more a paper) and found and that dooms day scenario is what was being discussed by one of the authors, but not by the nominee. It was 32 years ago, the book was speculating on a apocalyptic future of gross overpopulation and possible solutions.
I tend to agree, a major war over scarce resources would be more likely to solve the problem then imposing mandatory population controls.

112 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:31:38am

The irony is that Holdren's end goals can be realized, without all the messy ethical issues involved in forced sterilization, abortion et al.
Just follow liberal/leftist policy on arms control for example and we'll soon be plunged into another world war. Voila......overpopulation worries solved.
/

113 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:31:49am

re: #87 LudwigVanQuixote

I was speaking of plants in the planning process right now, Ludwig.

California Gives Desalination Plants a Fresh Look

Early next year, the Southern California town of Carlsbad will break ground on a plant that each day will turn 50 million gallons of seawater into fresh drinking water.

The $320 million project, which would be the largest desalination plant in the Western Hemisphere, was held up in the planning stages for years. But a protracted drought helped propel the project to its approval in May -- a sign of how worried local authorities are about water supplies.

The desalination plant would use water that flows by gravity from the ocean across a manmade lagoon and into the facility through 10 large pumps. The plant would then blast it through a filter, extracting fresh water and leaving behind highly pressurized salty water. The process would provide enough water for 300,000 people each day.

Of course, we'd also have to build the appropriate power plants, nuclear being the best option right now with work on other potential sources.

114 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:31:53am

There is "always a crisis of Malthusian proportions" according to the left. New Flash for you, technology and things like Moore's law always seem to absolve us from these issues. I dont know about you but things like urban agriculture and alternative sources of energy (nuclear unfortunately consider 'alternative') on the horizon will prove technology once again trumps Malthus and that liberal fear mongering was (as always) midguided at best, self serving at worst.

115 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:31:53am

This is just so unfair. I mean publishing the actual writings of someone Obama has appointed. //Maybe explains why we don't see any of his.

116 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:32:17am

re: #106 Desert Dog

Soylent Green power?

Power from people for power to the people!

117 JCM  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:32:21am

zombie is da ma...... err.. ah.. undead!

118 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:32:21am

re: #111 avanti

Not from me, I did a bit of research on the book (more a paper) and found and that dooms day scenario is what was being discussed by one of the authors, but not by the nominee. It was 32 years ago, the book was speculating on a apocalyptic future of gross overpopulation and possible solutions.
I tend to agree, a major war over scarce resources would be more likely to solve the problem then imposing mandatory population controls.

Must have been a pretty damned little fence.

119 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:32:38am

re: #3 Desert Dog

Under the bus in 5,4,3,2.....

I sincerely doubt it. The White Hosue reponse to this will be to simply ignore it.

However, my goal is not to get Holdren thrown under the bus, but simply to make more Americans aware of the radical nature of Obama's appointees, and erode his support even further.

Every chip with the small rock hammer of truth makes the boulder of lies smaller.

Chip, chip, chip...

120 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:32:46am

re: #104 zombie

I vote for 5, but without the "oops, my bad" from Johnny Boy

121 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:33:15am

re: #116 calcajun

Power from people for power to the people!

And, it tastes like chicken too

122 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:33:18am
123 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:33:27am

re: #111 avanti

Not from me, I did a bit of research on the book (more a paper) and found and that dooms day scenario is what was being discussed by one of the authors, but not by the nominee. It was 32 years ago, the book was speculating on a apocalyptic future of gross overpopulation and possible solutions.
I tend to agree, a major war over scarce resources would be more likely to solve the problem then imposing mandatory population controls.

You got some warning buzzer on your ass when someone posts something legitimately critical of Obama?

124 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:33:40am

I think "it was 32 years ago" will be the official brushoff.

125 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:33:53am

re: #111 avanti

spin, spin, spin. Zombie pre-empted you on that fortunately.

126 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:34:09am
127 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:34:21am

re: #123 kansas

You got some warning buzzer on your ass when someone posts something legitimately critical of Obama?

LOL. He is reliable isn't he. Like Old Faithful.......

128 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:34:30am

Be back in a few minutes. Gotta go build a house.//

129 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:34:36am

re: #123 kansas

You got some warning buzzer on your ass when someone posts something legitimately critical of Obama?


If that were the case I doubt he would ever be able to sit.

130 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:34:44am

re: #115 kansas

This is just so unfair. I mean publishing the actual writings of someone Obama has appointed. //Maybe explains why we don't see any of his.

Well, he does have 2 books out...that the FBI has said that prisoners can't read due to National Security issues... but go figure...

131 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:34:53am

re: #122 buzzsawmonkey

With those desalination plants, maybe the ocean levels will start to fall.

Yes, that means we can fire up the Hummers again because California is going to drop the sea levels once they plug in their new desaltifier

132 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:34:53am

re: #115 kansas

I have a dream that someday we will judge a man by the content of his books and not by the color of his skin.

133 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:35:06am

Speaking of abortion, isn't it curious that Justice Ginsberg had something to say about that as well....

Q: If you were a lawyer again, what would you want to accomplish as a future feminist legal agenda?

JUSTICE GINSBURG: Reproductive choice has to be straightened out. There will never be a woman of means without choice anymore. That just seems to me so obvious. The states that had changed their abortion laws before Roe [to make abortion legal] are not going to change back. So we have a policy that affects only poor women, and it can never be otherwise, and I don’t know why this hasn’t been said more often.

Q: Are you talking about the distances women have to travel because in parts of the country, abortion is essentially unavailable, because there are so few doctors and clinics that do the procedure? And also, the lack of Medicaid for abortions for poor women?

JUSTICE GINSBURG: Yes, the ruling about that surprised me. [Harris v. McRae — in 1980 the court upheld the Hyde Amendment, which forbids the use of Medicaid for abortions.] Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of. So that Roe was going to be then set up for Medicaid funding for abortion. Which some people felt would risk coercing women into having abortions when they didn’t really want them. But when the court decided McRae, the case came out the other way. And then I realized that my perception of it had been altogether wrong.

Q: When you say that reproductive rights need to be straightened out, what do you mean?

JUSTICE GINSBURG: The basic thing is that the government has no business making that choice for a woman.

Q: Does that mean getting rid of the test the court imposed, in which it allows states to impose restrictions on abortion — like a waiting period — that are not deemed an “undue burden” to a woman’s reproductive freedom?

JUSTICE GINSBURG: I’m not a big fan of these tests. I think the court uses them as a label that accommodates the result it wants to reach. It will be, it should be, that this is a woman’s decision. It’s entirely appropriate to say it has to be an informed decision, but that doesn’t mean you can keep a woman overnight who has traveled a great distance to get to the clinic, so that she has to go to some motel and think it over for 24 hours or 48 hours.

I still think, although I was much too optimistic in the early days, that the possibility of stopping a pregnancy very early is significant. The morning-after pill will become more accessible and easier to take. So I think the side that wants to take the choice away from women and give it to the state, they’re fighting a losing battle. Time is on the side of change.

134 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:35:23am

Actually, Obama and his appointees are already on their way to lowering birth levels. In countries where women have access to birth control, they tend to give birth only when they believe they can give their child a good life. No hope, no kids.

See: Eastern Europe.

135 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:35:38am

re: #122 buzzsawmonkey

With those desalination plants, maybe the ocean levels will start to fall.

I wonder if the desalination equipment company accepts IOU's? hhmm?

136 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:35:40am

Forced abortions. Mass sterilization. A "Planetary Regime" with the power of life and death over American citizens.

it's not oppressive..........it's just a choice,....... by the government,..........and you have no choice in the matter...........

/yeah, sure it will never happen.......now I have to go see these new GM models from the new "Government Motors"

137 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:35:48am

re: #126 buzzsawmonkey

How old was Obama at the time? That is the touchstone.

What does that have to do with me? Because in 0bama's world if it isn't about him, it is completely irrelevant.

138 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:36:00am

re: #119 zombie

I sincerely doubt it. The White Hosue reponse to this will be to simply ignore it.

However, my goal is not to get Holdren thrown under the bus, but simply to make more Americans aware of the radical nature of Obama's appointees, and erode his support even further.

Every chip with the small rock hammer of truth makes the boulder of lies smaller.

Chip, chip, chip...

I hope Fox News picks this up. Usually, if they give it enough play and a few bloggers latch onto it, CNN and the rest are forced to cover it, even if they try to minimize it with the usual, "Oh, look what the silly bloggers are doing." Once it's out there, it will be pretty hard for the administration to ignore.

139 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:36:06am

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

It seems to me that Holdren (along with his co-authors) are willing to take draconian measures to remedy preceived crises. Given that, I would be wary of his mindset regarding the willingness to use draconian measures to preceived crises in the future, regardless of the crisis.

And that's the other point.

If he was willing to institute totalitarian meaures to combat overpopulation in 1977 (that never materialized), then he is willing to institute totalitarian measures in 2009 to combat Global Warming (which I wager will never materialize anywhere to the catastrophic extent they are predicting).

Apparently, taking away your freedoms is just what Holdren likes to propose. Only now, he has the actual power to do it.

Just imagine if Jimmy Carter had appointed him Science Czar in 1977. We'd all be sterilized by now, "for the public good."

140 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:36:16am

re: #111 avanti

Powering up the patented avant spin machine© again? You need to put a generator on the sucker and sell the excess electricity generated; you'd be a millionaire in no time flat.

141 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:36:18am

re: #129 soxfan4life

If that were the case I doubt he would ever be able to sit.

Yeah, but he was out building a fence and got notified somehow.

142 J.S.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:36:37am

re: #124 jaunte

Wasn't Bill Ayers' bizarre notions (such as those about prisons) dismissed in a similar way -- "why that was X years ago!" (not that Ayers denounced or retracted anything -- it was just that it wasn't "current")..

143 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:36:48am

re: #126 buzzsawmonkey

How old was Obama at the time? That is the touchstone.

16.

144 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:36:55am

re: #136 IslandLibertarian

Forced abortions. Mass sterilization. A "Planetary Regime" with the power of life and death over American citizens.

it's not oppressive..........it's just a choice,....... by the government,..........and you have no choice in the matter...........

/yeah, sure it will never happen.......now I have to go see these new GM models from the new "Government Motors"

I'm from the Government and I am here to help you.....by killing you off to save the Planet.

145 Syrah  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:37:03am

I remember my high school science teacher trying to scare us silly about the danger of overpopulation and Ehrlich's predictions. He even offered "extra credit" to those students that would read Ehrlich's book. (I did not read it.)

I recall sitting in class, listening to the teacher's rants and trying to imagine a world populated 3 deep with people. I just could not bring myself to believe in the possibility. It was one of the first instances where I began to suspect that much that was called "science," was not.

146 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:37:05am

re: #142 J.S.

Wasn't Bill Ayers' bizarre notions (such as those about prisons) dismissed in a similar way -- "why that was X years ago!" (not that Ayers denounced or retracted anything -- it was just that it wasn't "current")..

A refrain constantly repeated.

147 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:37:09am

I left a post at ZomBlog:

I have 9 children and 22 grandchildren. Come and get me, Planetary Regime coppers! BWAHAHAHA!

Oh and BTW, I'M A JOO!

148 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:37:54am

Damn!
I was trying to post this and my computer went haywire and shut down.

There is a really oddball movie called Idiocracy that explores what could happen if all the smart people stop reproducing, leaving only the less smart.,

In Idiocracy, the King of the Hill creator visualizes what would happen if Devo's proposition--that mankind is in the process of devolution--came to pass. The catalyst: the overeducated start having fewer children while the undereducated have more. Enter Joe (Luke Wilson), a military librarian with no family and even less ambition. The Pentagon chooses him for a top-secret hibernation project due to his extreme "average-ness." They select Rita (SNL's Maya Rudolph), a prostitute, for the same reason. When the experiment goes haywire, the two emerge 500 years later--rather than one. Now it's 2505 and they're the brightest people in the over-polluted land. Everyone else is, basically, Beavis and Butt-head.

149 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:37:57am

re: #97 Dianna

Ethiopia!

A state where the "famine" was essentially engineered? The drought was real enough, but Ethiopia's regime essentially left the Eritreans to starve in order to extinguish a simmering insurgency.

It didn't work.

And do you really think that as the world approached the magic number, those nations in power would not use such tactics to limit the populations of others?

I know I am talking about dark things. People and governments do dark things "in the national interest."

150 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:38:05am

re: #147 Alouette

I left a post at ZomBlog:

I have 9 children and 22 grandchildren. Come and get me, Planetary Regime coppers! BWAHAHAHA!

Oh and BTW, I'M A JOO!

When do you get your own show on TLC?

151 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:38:09am

re: #132 Lincolntf

I have a dream that someday we will judge a man by the content of his books and not by the color of his skin.

I have a dream that someday we will be able to judge the contents of a President's medical file, transcripts, and writings and not only the color of his skin and his fade away jumper.

152 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:38:19am

re: #141 kansas

Yeah, but he was out building a fence and got notified somehow.

A talking points tweet maybe? Kind of like the bat signal, quick to the blog cave.

153 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:38:39am

re: #136 IslandLibertarian

Forced abortions. Mass sterilization. A "Planetary Regime" with the power of life and death over American citizens.

it's not oppressive..........it's just a choice,....... by the government,..........and you have no choice in the matter...........

/yeah, sure it will never happen.......now I have to go see these new GM models from the new "Government Motors"

That all goes back to Anderson Cooper spinning the governments 'Asking us to sacrifice' in an interview with a gentleman whose name I forget...

To that I say, "We are not ASKED...to be ASKED means I have the choice to say "NO...", when the government passes some BS law...I don't have that CHOICE to say no, well technically I can say no...but with Jail time...

154 jamgarr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:39:04am

I just had an epiphany!
What with Ayers, Holdren, etc. etc. etc. he's trying to speed up the aging process of hope & change by deluging the Beltway with . . . wait for it. . . free radicals!

155 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:39:10am
156 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:39:23am

"Its got electrolytes, its what plants crave"re: #148 reine.de.tout

157 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #145 Syrah

I remember my high school science teacher trying to scare us silly about the danger of overpopulation and Ehrlich's predictions. He even offered "extra credit" to those students that would read Ehrlich's book. (I did not read it.)

I recall sitting in class, listening to the teacher's rants and trying to imagine a world populated 3 deep with people. I just could not bring myself to believe in the possibility. It was one of the first instances where I began to suspect that much that was called "science," was not.

We are contemporaries then. I had science teachers in Junior High School (1975-77) do the exact same thing. I was told there would be no oil left for us in the future, we would not have enough food because the population would be too big.....ice ages....the USSR would outlive the USA.....good thing I was a smart ass back then (and not a dumb ass)

158 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #152 soxfan4life

A talking points tweet maybe? Kind of like the bat signal, quick to the blog cave.

Gotta be something like that. Supported by media matters or Kos maybe?

159 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:39:36am

re: #111 avanti

But the fact remains that you need a certain number of acres to support one person, or that one acre, properly managed, can support a certain number of people.

Now, if you look at soil replenishment, loss of topsoil, use of fertilizers, it is possible to argue that the amount of arable land on the planet is decreasing while the population is increasing. This would give rise to the speculation that our level of population growth--not to mention Western consumption levels--is out of whack with what it takes to maintain that lifestyle.

There is some merit to the argument. It could happen given the right circumstances. But, there is no merit to the proposed solutions.

160 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:39:47am

re: #156 GOPManHatTanIte

"Its got electrolytes, its what plants crave"

hahahaha!
That's the part I watched, funny as all get out.

161 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:39:56am

re: #139 zombie

And that's the other point.

If he was willing to institute totalitarian meaures to combat overpopulation in 1977 (that never materialized), then he is willing to institute totalitarian measures in 2009 to combat Global Warming (which I wager will never materialize anywhere to the catastrophic extent they are predicting).

Apparently, taking away your freedoms is just what Holdren likes to propose. Only now, he has the actual power to do it.

Just imagine if Jimmy Carter had appointed him Science Czar in 1977. We'd all be sterilized by now, "for the public good."

And I wouldn't exist...

162 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:40:01am

re: #148 reine.de.tout

Damn!
I was trying to post this and my computer went haywire and shut down.

There is a really oddball movie called Idiocracy that explores what could happen if all the smart people stop reproducing, leaving only the less smart.,

I love that movie. I particularly like the beginning with the redneck family tree vs. the couple who has a career. The only good news about it is that genetics are quirky things. Dumb parents can have smart kids.

163 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:40:06am

re: #149 LudwigVanQuixote

And do you really think that as the world approached the magic number, those nations in power would not use such tactics to limit the populations of others?

I know I am talking about dark things. People and governments do dark things "in the national interest."

That would make a kind of sense. What would really happen is the socialist countries of the West, including the Obamified U.S., would try to limit our population and use of resources in favor of the third world. Oh, wait, they're already doing that.

164 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:40:56am

re: #139 zombie

Just imagine if Jimmy Carter had appointed him Science Czar in 1977.
====================
Thanks Zombie ... your work is always very impressive. brezhnev treated jimmy carter like his predecessor treated the actual czar (tsar) appx 90 years ago. and now Obama has carter failures like brzezenski advising him? we are unbelievably screwed unless someone start calling some of this out.

165 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:41:04am

Does anybody remember the last book in C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy? That Hideous Strength.

For those that have read it, this scenario reminds me a little of the organization N.I.C.E.

Funny thing is, in England there is now an official group called N.I.C.E. and look at what they are all about! I believe they have a certain policy-making role in what medical procedures/drugs/etc are allowable in what circumstances for those needing (nationalized) medicine.

Something poetic there, albeit in a weird way.

166 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:41:04am

re: #163 doppelganglander

That would make a kind of sense. What would really happen is the socialist countries of the West, including the Obamified U.S., would try to limit our population and use of resources in favor of the third world. Oh, wait, they're already doing that.

Would Cap and Trade be a great name for such a project?

167 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:41:37am

re: #148 reine.de.tout

Damn!
I was trying to post this and my computer went haywire and shut down.

There is a really oddball movie called Idiocracy that explores what could happen if all the smart people stop reproducing, leaving only the less smart.,

I have that movie on DVD but haven't watched it; maybe I should.

168 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:41:52am

re: #162 LudwigVanQuixote

"Ow my BALLS"

its getting a lot more airtime on comedy central nowadays

169 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:42:13am

re: #154 jamgarr

Buzzsawmonkey called, and he wants his brain back. :)

170 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:42:17am
171 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:42:24am

re: #167 FurryOldGuyJeans

yes right away

172 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:42:35am

re: #166 soxfan4life

Would Cap and Trade be a great name for such a project?

Why, that would be a swell name! Or we could call it Waxman-Markey, no one knows what the hell that means.

173 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:42:46am
174 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:42:46am

re: #139 zombie

And that's the other point.

If he was willing to institute totalitarian meaures to combat overpopulation in 1977 (that never materialized), then he is willing to institute totalitarian measures in 2009 to combat Global Warming (which I wager will never materialize anywhere to the catastrophic extent they are predicting).

Apparently, taking away your freedoms is just what Holdren likes to propose. Only now, he has the actual power to do it.

Just imagine if Jimmy Carter had appointed him Science Czar in 1977. We'd all be sterilized by now, "for the public good."


I hope that a major media outlet picks up on this story and, further, that you are duly credited. Very Nice Work!

175 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #167 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have that movie on DVD but haven't watched it; maybe I should.

Yes, watch it.

176 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:42:59am

re: #139 zombie

And that's the other point.

If he was willing to institute totalitarian meaures to combat overpopulation in 1977 (that never materialized), then he is willing to institute totalitarian measures in 2009 to combat Global Warming (which I wager will never materialize anywhere to the catastrophic extent they are predicting).

Apparently, taking away your freedoms is just what Holdren likes to propose. Only now, he has the actual power to do it.

Just imagine if Jimmy Carter had appointed him Science Czar in 1977. We'd all be sterilized by now, "for the public good."

Don't you think you are overstating things a bit? There is a big difference between a possible future of overpopulation - and pointing out that no, if you reach that point, bad things really will happen, and the possibility that congress or the president or even the authors - were proposing enacting laws in the seventies that would be appropriate to such an overpopulated world.

177 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:43:07am

re: #170 buzzsawmonkey

"Cap and trade for you--tapinadetapanaide for me."

--the Inner Party


Had to give it a little edit.

178 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:43:12am

re: #170 buzzsawmonkey

Dont forget that rolling stone article about how goldman controls + profits from it...Hippie journalism

179 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:43:19am

re: #148 reine.de.tout

Damn!
I was trying to post this and my computer went haywire and shut down.

There is a really oddball movie called Idiocracy that explores what could happen if all the smart people stop reproducing, leaving only the less smart.,

You mean that has not happened already?

180 noahsatellite  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:43:20am

Charles --
I'm surprised at your response to this. I like your site and agree with your opinions more than most other blogs, but I have to say I'm taken aback by your thoughts on this matter.

When Anne Coulter, tongue in cheek, commented to Bill O'Reilly that she didn't think of the killing of Dr. George Tiller as murder but rather his termination in the 208th trimester (or something of the sort) you screamed bloody murder. I'm not defending Anne Coulter's statements. I do find it confusing though since your responses to these two events seems polar opposite. Why crucify Anne Coulter but advocate listening to the defense of a man who, in your own words, "[advocated] mass sterilization and forced abortion to solve a looming overpopulation crisis."

181 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:43:38am

re: #173 buzzsawmonkey

Nah, keep it. I have a spare.

Why am I not at all surprised?

182 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:43:40am

Here's a little more insight into Holdren's character:

Dr. Holdren’s resistance to dissenting views was also on display earlier this year in an article asserting that climate skeptics are “dangerous.” (You can read about the response to that article at DotEarth.)

Dr. Holdren is certainly entitled to his views, but what concerns me is his tendency to conflate the science of climate change with prescriptions to cut greenhouse emissions. Even if most climate scientists agree on the anthropogenic causes of global warming, that doesn’t imply that the best way to deal with the problem is through drastic cuts in greenhouse emissions. There are other ways to cope, and there’s no “scientific consensus” on which path looks best.

Roger A. Pielke Jr., a professor of environmental studies at the University of Colorado and the author of “The Honest Broker: Making Sense of Science in Policy and Politics,” discussed Dr. Holdren’s conflation of science and politics in a post on the Prometheus blog:

The notion that science tells us what to do leads Holdren to appeal to authority to suggest that not only are his scientific views correct, but because his scientific views are correct, then so too are his political views.


[Link: tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com...]

183 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:44:34am

re: #175 reine.de.tout

Yes, watch it.

It sounds a lot like a movie version of The Marching Morons, a short sci-fi story I have enjoyed. I can't remember why I haven't watched Idiocracy yet.

184 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:44:48am

re: #20 KingKenrod

The only kind of renouncement I'd like to see is a complete renouncement of the ideology that leads someone to think the state can legitimately hold powers like forced sterilization and forced abortion.

PRECISELY!

It's the fact that he even thinks this type of government control is acceptable that's the problem. It's the mind-frame, not the specific policy. Obviously, Holdren could never get away with something like mass sterilization, but holy jeepers, if he's capable of rationalizing that, he's capable of rationalizing anything.

185 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:45:23am

re: #182 jaunte

There's nothing more dangerous to the AGW nuts than a person who knows how to read a thermometer.

186 nyc redneck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:45:25am

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, I know that I am going to take a lot of heat for this, but I would like to pose this as a thought question.

Suppose, just suppose, we actually did reach a point where there were more people on the Earth than the Earth could feed. This is not utterly stupid to propose. The Earth is finite, it can only produce so much food per year.

Before we got to that point though, there would be more people on the planet than there would be potable water.

From what I have read, the "magic number" for this, following current trends - and *not* taking pollution into account is about 12 billion souls. Even if the magic number is 14 or 20 billion it does not matter to this argument. At some point, you can imagine that there are more people than resources. Yes, this is Malthusian. Calling it that does not make the facts that people need water and food - and that there is only so much on a given planet, go away.

If people can not get water, they will die. This is not arguable. If people are desperate for food and water, something so utterly basic, they have absolutely nothing to loose if they try to take it. The other option is death by dehydration or starvation. Telling them to just behave and die quietly is not a real option.

So, imagine that we are approaching that point? What is the most humane thing to do?

the problem is very simple, more mouths than food.

You can do nothing. At this point, you really will have a law of the jungle. The people with the best guns will will kill the people who want the resources and the population problem gets solved by war.

Or perhaps you can limit the amount of children that people have and try to hold the population at a sustainable level. Which is more humane? Which has less suffering?

I am not saying that we are at that point. I am not saying that I want to see that point. However, this is not an outrageous view that needs to be recanted. It is an unfortunate and unhappy reality.

world population is on the decline in so many countries now. europe is going backwards, so is japan and famine and disease are killing many people in africa.
how many times, in the last 50 yrs., have we heard we are all going to die of starvation god help us if we have a citizen of the world fool for potus if we are ever in a predicament like that. if it comes to all out basic survival, i am NOT in favor of getting rid of my fellow citizens. or even trying to limit the number of children they want to have.
but i would be in favor of all people , who are in favor of this, to come forward and offer THEMSELVES for the cause. hunger strikes, getting on an ice flow voluntarily, and being sterilized by choice. that would help solve the problem.
let all who want the "most humane" thing for society be given their opportunity to fulfill the plan they embrace. that saves us from having to choose.

this is a hint of what is to come w/ gov't health care. an attitude of who gets deleted.

187 jamgarr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:45:26am

re: #173 buzzsawmonkey

Nah, keep it. I have a spare.


Abby's?

188 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:45:29am

re: #182 jaunte

Here's a little more insight into Holdren's character:


[Link: tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com...]

Sounds to me the dude just wants to kill someone...legally I guess...

189 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:45:31am

re: #182 jaunte

Here's a little more insight into Holdren's character:


[Link: tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com...]

That doesn't surprise me a bit. I'm with buzz - I'd rather have creationists in positions of authority than this guy and his kind. At least creationists value life and acknowledge a power higher than themselves.

190 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:45:43am

The reason there is starvation and lack of fresh water in portions of Africa has nothing to do with overpopulation or scarcity of food and water. It is because of oppressive governments/thugs.
People stood in lines for bread in the Soviet Union 50 years ago.
This whole Population Bomb scare is bullshit!

191 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:45:59am

re: #166 soxfan4life

Would Cap and Trade be a great name for such a project?

No, "Cap in Hand" is what it will be as the US will need to go to the World Government (in Beijing, probably) to ask for permission to do anything.

192 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:46:20am

re: #163 doppelganglander

That would make a kind of sense. What would really happen is the socialist countries of the West, including the Obamified U.S., would try to limit our population and use of resources in favor of the third world. Oh, wait, they're already doing that.

Perhaps. Certainly China did it. But I would think that the more likely scenario is that most "liberal" Americans, Europeans, Chinese or Russians would be happy to shoot Africans for arable land if it came down to it.

193 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:46:26am

re: #180 noahsatellite

You miss the point. Dr. Tiller provided a service (albiet one I don't much like) for people willing to have the service. This guy, John Holdren is willing to (as evidenced in the book) have you sterilized or make you have an abortion for the "greater good".

A vast gulf exists between the two.

194 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:46:29am

as for overpopulation, technology will help us to stay ahead of many problems. if we can desalinate ocean water, we're fine. i think we'll use up the oceans around the time the sun burns itself out. but hey ... we need to think about those things if we expect to stay ahead of them.

maybe some of our grandkids or great grandkids will end up living on the moon or mars ...

195 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:47:10am

re: #173 buzzsawmonkey

Nah, keep it. I have a spare.

Damn, they do sell everything at Wal-mart these days/

196 JCM  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:47:27am

re: #114 GOPManHatTanIte

There is "always a crisis of Malthusian proportions" according to the left. New Flash for you, technology and things like Moore's law always seem to absolve us from these issues. I dont know about you but things like urban agriculture and alternative sources of energy (nuclear unfortunately consider 'alternative') on the horizon will prove technology once again trumps Malthus and that liberal fear mongering was (as always) midguided at best, self serving at worst.

There is about 3 billion acres of arable land on earth, rough estimate (15million sq km) [serious round down on the math].
One US farm on average over 100 people per acre.

I'd say we have a little head room before panicking on food resources. Granted that is at high utilization with modern framing techniques.

The "starvation" problems we see are not agricultural, they are political.
Lack of stability in governments, out right theft of produce by or allowed by governments.

The infrastructure we have that allows our high farm productive comes from a stable political and economic structure. That structure is rooted in our liberties.

The solution to any "food crisis" lies not in draconian population controls, or command and control economies.

The solution lies in liberty.

197 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:47:31am

re: #172 doppelganglander

Why, that would be a swell name! Or we could call it Waxman-Markey, no one knows what the hell that means.

Waxman-Markey is from a dialect known as "Taxthecrapoutofus". It translates to bend over and grab your ankles

198 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:47:56am

re: #189 doppelganglander

That doesn't surprise me a bit. I'm with buzz - I'd rather have creationists in positions of authority than this guy and his kind. At least creationists value life and acknowledge a power higher than themselves.

I am with Rush when he says the government should always fall on the side of life...and when it no longer does...be very afraid.

199 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:48:25am

re: #25 jill e

How about this from Power Line:

Without looking ahead to the end, guess who said this, in an interview that will be published on Sunday:

"Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don't want to have too many of. So that Roe was going to be then set up for Medicaid funding for abortion. Which some people felt would risk coercing women into having abortions when they didn't really want them. But when the court decided McRae, the case came out the other way. And then I realized that my perception of it had been altogether wrong."

That was Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, in an interview to be published Sunday in the New York Times Magazine. Of course, the interviewer didn't ask what "populations" those might be. For a moment, at least, we catch of glimpse of what some liberals really think about abortion.

That's the focus of Michelle Malkin's new post about my report:

Malkin:

The ghoulish spirit of Margaret Sanger lives

Looks like retiring Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg isn’t the only one who’s been channeling abortion champion/eugenicist Margaret Sanger.

Internet sleuth Zombie has a new report on John Holdren, President Obama’s science czar:
...
Zombie’s got all the goods. Read the whole thing.

Remember, kids: Being a progressive means never having to say you’re sorry for for advocating the racist, mass abortion of the “undesirables.”

200 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:48:27am

re: #191 calcajun

No, "Cap in Hand" is what it will be as the US will need to go to the World Government (in Beijing, probably) to ask for permission to do anything.

What if you were of the belief that it is just as easy to ask for forgiveness as it is to ask for permission?

201 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:48:28am
202 funky chicken  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:48:42am

re: #5 J.D.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Barack Obama adviser wants uranium enrichment under international control
Be sure to send them the notice through registered mail.

Yeah, and Mohammed El-B could be in charge of security.

/

203 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:48:42am

re: #195 calcajun

Damn, they do sell everything at Wal-mart these days/

I hope it's not one of those lead-lined Chinese made models Joe Biden has been using lately.

204 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:48:54am

re: #194 _RememberTonyC

as for overpopulation, technology will help us to stay ahead of many problems. if we can desalinate ocean water, we're fine. i think we'll use up the oceans around the time the sun burns itself out. but hey ... we need to think about those things if we expect to stay ahead of them.

maybe some of our grandkids or great grandkids will end up living on the moon or mars ...

I wish our liberals would poineer that move.........
/

205 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:48:55am

re: #192 LudwigVanQuixote

Perhaps. Certainly China did it. But I would think that the more likely scenario is that most "liberal" Americans, Europeans, Chinese or Russians would be happy to shoot Africans for arable land if it came down to it.

The Chinese or Russians would. The Europeans might. I'm afraid Americans have become so self-abnegating, particularly on the subject of race, that they'd blame themselves for the crisis and accept restrictions on food supply and energy use.

206 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:49:18am

re: #204 LGoPs

I wish our liberals would poineer that move.........
/

Pioneer. PIMF

207 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:49:31am

re: #185 Lincolntf

There's nothing more dangerous to the AGW nuts than a person who knows how to read a thermometer.

Even worse is someone that has a clue about the impreciseness of the computer models being touted as perfect. Chaos Science was conceived because of the inaccuracies inherent in the computer modeling.

208 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:49:40am

re: #197 Desert Dog

Waxman-Markey is from a dialect known as "Taxthecrapoutofus". It translates to bend over and grab your ankles

That transitional fossil has also been discovered under Ted Kennedy's home... National Geographic is running a 2 hour program on it's not so recent emergence...

//

209 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:49:48am

re: #149 LudwigVanQuixote

I am as pessimistic about human nature as you are.

However, this is not a present crisis, and need never become one, given some fairly simple measures. Most of which are slipping in, usually without the oppressive governments managing to notice.

210 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:49:57am

re: #26 reine.de.tout

Wonder what the definition is of "frivolous and wasteful uses".
iPhones?
iPods?
Any TV not run by the state?
Hot and cold running water?
Indoor plumbing?
A/C in the summer; heat in the winter?
Transportation and travel?
General comfort?

Kissing liberty goodbye.

211 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:49:59am

re: #199 zombie

Well done! The word is getting out.

212 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:51:07am

re: #184 zombie

PRECISELY!

It's the fact that he even thinks this type of government control is acceptable that's the problem. It's the mind-frame, not the specific policy. Obviously, Holdren could never get away with something like mass sterilization, but holy jeepers, if he's capable of rationalizing that, he's capable of rationalizing anything.

He also can see his way to charging CEO's of oil companies with crimes against humanity.

213 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:51:19am

re: #180 noahsatellite

I'm surprised at your surprise.

If, as you have stated, you are a frequent reader here you'll know that we, and Charles in particular are tougher on ridiculous things stated by conservatives than liberal/ progressives. Also, as stated, this was written three DECADES ago. Lets hear what he has to say TODAY

We KNOW what Coulter said 'today" !

214 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:51:44am

re: #196 JCM

There is about 3 billion acres of arable land on earth, rough estimate (15million sq km) [serious round down on the math].
One US farm on average over 100 people per acre.

I'd say we have a little head room before panicking on food resources. Granted that is at high utilization with modern framing techniques.

The "starvation" problems we see are not agricultural, they are political.
Lack of stability in governments, out right theft of produce by or allowed by governments.

The infrastructure we have that allows our high farm productive comes from a stable political and economic structure. That structure is rooted in our liberties.

The solution to any "food crisis" lies not in draconian population controls, or command and control economies.

The solution lies in liberty.

I've read that food costs are rising, largely due to the diversion of crops to ethanol production. A politically driven decision and one that is apprently having an effect on poorer countries.
Liberal ideas are the enemy.

215 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:51:45am

re: #199 zombie

I think this (among a lot of your other hard work) should be your Dan Rather 'forged' memo moment...

216 Syrah  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:51:49am

re: #157 Desert Dog

We are contemporaries then. I had science teachers in Junior High School (1975-77) do the exact same thing. I was told there would be no oil left for us in the future, we would not have enough food because the population would be too big.....ice ages....the USSR would outlive the USA.....good thing I was a smart ass back then (and not a dumb ass)

I think that there is some validity to being concerned about population trends, overpopulation, and even population decline. I can understand the way the numbers and the trends work. What bothered me then and what bothers me now about things like this is the hyperbole and religious fervor with which it is sold.

CAGW (Catistrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming) being a case in point. I think that Gore's "consensus" arguments and the way that he and others likened doubters to holocaust deniers has really emotionally charged and politicized the subject. So much so that the subject becomes nearly impossible to consider and discuss rationally no mater where you might find yourself.

217 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:52:27am

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, I know that I am going to take a lot of heat for this, but I would like to pose this as a thought question.

Suppose, just suppose, we actually did reach a point where there were more people on the Earth than the Earth could feed. This is not utterly stupid to propose. The Earth is finite, it can only produce so much food per year.

Before we got to that point though, there would be more people on the planet than there would be potable water.

From what I have read, the "magic number" for this, following current trends - and *not* taking pollution into account is about 12 billion souls. Even if the magic number is 14 or 20 billion it does not matter to this argument. At some point, you can imagine that there are more people than resources. Yes, this is Malthusian. Calling it that does not make the facts that people need water and food - and that there is only so much on a given planet, go away.

If people can not get water, they will die. This is not arguable. If people are desperate for food and water, something so utterly basic, they have absolutely nothing to loose if they try to take it. The other option is death by dehydration or starvation. Telling them to just behave and die quietly is not a real option.

So, imagine that we are approaching that point? What is the most humane thing to do?

the problem is very simple, more mouths than food.

You can do nothing. At this point, you really will have a law of the jungle. The people with the best guns will will kill the people who want the resources and the population problem gets solved by war.

Or perhaps you can limit the amount of children that people have and try to hold the population at a sustainable level. Which is more humane? Which has less suffering?

I am not saying that we are at that point. I am not saying that I want to see that point. However, this is not an outrageous view that needs to be recanted. It is an unfortunate and unhappy reality.

I address this point in my report as well, pre-emptively seeing your question:

"I actually don't disagree with everything Holdren says. I agree with him that overpopulation is a problem, and that much of the environmental degradation that has happened is due in large part to overpopulation (mostly in the developing world). Where we disagree is in the solution. While Holdren does occasionally advocate for milder solutions elsewhere in the book, his basic premise is that the population explosion has gotten so out of control that only the most oppressive and totalitarian measures can possibly stop humanity from stripping the planet bare and causing a catastrophe beyond our imagining. Holdren has (apparently) no problem saying we should force people to not have children, by any means necessary. And that is where we part ways. I draw the line at even the hint of compulsory compliance to draconian laws about pregnancy and abortion; Holdren does not hesitate to cross that line without a second thought.

My solution would be to adopt social policies that are known to lead to voluntary and non-coercive trends toward a lower birth rate: increased education for girls in poor countries, better access to (voluntarily adopted) birth control, higher standards of living. In fact, population trends since 1977 have started to level off in the crisis areas of Asia and Latin America, primarily due to better standards of living and better education, which are known to decrease population growth. These non-oppressive policies appear to be sufficient to control the population -- and Holdren's decades-long panic attack seems to be unfounded.
"

218 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:52:38am

re: #192 LudwigVanQuixote

Perhaps. Certainly China did it. But I would think that the more likely scenario is that most "liberal" Americans, Europeans, Chinese or Russians would be happy to shoot Africans for arable land if it came down to it.

And China, IMHO, is making a big mistake. Now, instead of growing bigger than the US economically, they'll grow old before they grow rich. What has happened to excess population in the past is that they emigrated to new, underpopulated areas. Witness what happened to the Irish in the 1840s as an example.

219 mfarmer1  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:53:15am

How much longer until we can celebrate that most hippie scumbags are finally dead and no longer in the halls of power? Their Utopian bullshit is doing far more damage than any of their end of the world bogus predictions.

220 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:53:22am

re: #47 buzzsawmonkey

However, note that population growth levels seem to drop as standard of living increases. So it would seem that the way to avoid such doomsday scenarios is to try and help the more backward areas of the world ratchet themselves up a few notches.

Bingo!

221 funky chicken  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:53:36am

re: #194 _RememberTonyC

as for overpopulation, technology will help us to stay ahead of many problems. if we can desalinate ocean water, we're fine. i think we'll use up the oceans around the time the sun burns itself out. but hey ... we need to think about those things if we expect to stay ahead of them.

maybe some of our grandkids or great grandkids will end up living on the moon or mars ...

Frankly, parts of Africa are overpopulated in comparison to what the environment can sustain (like Somalia). Massive food aid from the West has kept them alive.

Could the "Palestinians" maintain their insane reproductive rates without massive aid from the West and Israel?

Good luck getting the "zero population growth" creeps to address those areas though.

222 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:54:16am

re: #204 LGoPs

I wish our liberals would poineer that move.........
/

i thought they already did .... moonbats come from somewhere ...

223 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:54:54am

re: #214 LGoPs

I've read that food costs are rising, largely due to the diversion of crops to ethanol production. A politically driven decision and one that is apprently having an effect on poorer countries.
Liberal ideas are the enemy.

And, with the exception of a few natural disasters over the past 50-75 years, most recent famines have been man made. We have the land and technology to feed the world many times over right now. We just don't have the means to deliver because most of the world is under the control of scumbag dictators, President's for Life, and other assorted despots and tyrants.....and, they can care less about their people.

224 The Other Les  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:54:57am

Still, these are pretty outrageous opinions by most people’s standards, and Holdren should be given a chance to explain or renounce them.

To renounce a position, no matter how bat guano crazy it appears, would be tantamount to admitting that one is wrong and thus not truly an intellectually superior being to be obeyed regardless of the outcome.

To actually take the trouble of explaining a position (as if compulsory mutilation and abortion could be explained) to mere mortals such as us would be to treat us as though we were in fact fully equals in a human society and not the stupid domestic animals that the theories of the self-styled progressives hold us to be. Which of course puts them in the position described in the first paragraph of this response.

225 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:55:48am

How can one find out how much input Holdren had on FCBBHO's approach to nukes?

226 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:56:12am

re: #180 noahsatellite

Because Ann said it right after a murder.

Holdren was speaking "theoretically" three decades ago.

Personally, I'm pretty sure Holdren meant it then and means it now. I'm also pretty sure that Ann Coulter's remark was evil, and she meant it, too.

227 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:56:32am

re: #218 Honorary Yooper

And China, IMHO, is making a big mistake. Now, instead of growing bigger than the US economically, they'll grow old before they grow rich. What has happened to excess population in the past is that they emigrated to new, underpopulated areas. Witness what happened to the Irish in the 1840s as an example.

They have numbers on us, that's about it. We just need to get back to being ourselves.....our ideals, work ethic, innovation, freedom and desire to make loads and loads of cash will once again ride supreme in the world. (I hope, gulp)

228 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:56:40am

re: #220 zombie

I just submitted you to the Drudge Report...who knows what could happen.

229 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:56:54am

Jonathan Adler:


...there’s plenty of reason to believe that on climate change, as in other areas, Holdren mistakes (or ignores) the line where science ends and policy begins. This worldview is a leading source of science politicization. For if policy is to be dictated by scientific conclusions, controlling the science is the only way to control policy.

...the underlying causes of science politicization are far deeper than who sits in the Oval Office. Even so, President-Elect Obama’s choice of John Holdren for his primary science adviser suggests political misuse and abuse of science will continue in the Obama administration, pledges to respect science notwithstanding. [Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

230 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:57:13am

re: #196 JCM

The solution to most anything lies in liberty sir or madame

231 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:57:46am

re: #230 GOPManHatTanIte

The solution to most anything lies in liberty sir or madame

here, here!

232 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:58:05am

re: #228 Oh no...Sand People!

I just submitted you to the Drudge Report...who knows what could happen.

I'll be impressed when zombie causes Olberman to have a meltdown. He needs a new subject now that Sarah Palin is resigning.

233 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:58:07am

re: #228 Oh no...Sand People!

I just submitted you to the Drudge Report...who knows what could happen.

Cool! I didn't know you could do that. Prepare for a Drudgalanche.

234 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:58:24am

re: #223 Desert Dog

Case in point:
North Korea vs. South Korea

.........it's the governments

235 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:58:47am

re: #94 Mr. E. Train

Your name does not exist - who are you?

236 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:59:01am

re: #192 LudwigVanQuixote

Utter nonsense.

237 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:59:26am

re: #233 doppelganglander

Cool! I didn't know you could do that. Prepare for a Drudgalanche.

I hope it happens...this needs to be another big story to add to Obama's radical plumage...

238 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:59:31am

was it Mises who said the first job of an economist is to tell the government what it cant do?

239 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 11:59:33am

re: #71 LudwigVanQuixote

For certain. That is the answer. However, if we do not educate women and we do not raise standards of living we will see Ethiopia writ large.

I am a long-time student of Malthusian theory, and in recent centuries his predictions for how population levels rise and crash have been off-base. What he did not see is a sort of built-in self-regulation, where human population levels only rise to the level at which they can be sustained. It happens famously with various fish and tadpole/frog species, where they "magically" only give birth to approximately as many offspring as can survive in that particular pond.

Nature is pretty amazing. And human society is amazing too.

But, even granting your doomsday scenario, I'd still rather "let the chips fall where they may" and let the population level off "naturally" (even if that includes starvation) than force all 14 billion of us to live in a totalitarian hell.

240 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:00:02pm

re: #186 nyc redneck

world population is on the decline in so many countries now. europe is going backwards, so is japan and famine and disease are killing many people in africa.
how many times, in the last 50 yrs., have we heard we are all going to die of starvation god help us if we have a citizen of the world fool for potus if we are ever in a predicament like that. if it comes to all out basic survival, i am NOT in favor of getting rid of my fellow citizens. or even trying to limit the number of children they want to have.
but i would be in favor of all people , who are in favor of this, to come forward and offer THEMSELVES for the cause. hunger strikes, getting on an ice flow voluntarily, and being sterilized by choice. that would help solve the problem.
let all who want the "most humane" thing for society be given their opportunity to fulfill the plan they embrace. that saves us from having to choose.

this is a hint of what is to come w/ gov't health care. an attitude of who gets deleted.

I think you are getting rather paranoid. First off, the reason that population declined in Europe and America was well covered above. It is no more or less than the economic empowerment of women. Nations that do not do such things still have six or more babies per woman.

As to national health care, I really do not understand why this generates the outrage that it does. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should go to socialized medicine per se, but do you really think that the HMO that acts like it is bleeding when it tells doctors they can't treat you the way the doctors think is best for you, is somehow a better or more humane system than a government system?

Does the HMO's bottom line, and their freedom to profit as much as possible from your ailment, outweigh your desire to have the best possible medical treatment? The reality of the numbers is that medicine costs so much because of all the hands in the trough. This goes from the malpractice attorneys to the insurance people down through the hospitals who charge thirty bucks for an aspirin. Of course, the hospitals are overwhelmed by people who use the ER as a primary care facility because they can not get insurance.

It is not clear to me that a fully socialized system would be better, but it is equally not clear to me, that given the flaws of the current system, it would be the end of the Republic either.

The reality is that even in socialized medical systems, rich people still go to private hospitals. The reality is that pharmaceutical research will always have a market, so Pfizer can cry all it wants about profit shares. They will be fine. Further, huge amounts of pure research is done by NIH, government grants anyway already.

Science is it's own thing. The normal rules of capitalism are a little different for it, because scientific research is a risky investment. NO particular line of research can be guaranteed to bear fruit for an investor. This is why the government funds the enterprise as a whole. This is not a bad thing either.

241 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:00:23pm

Holdren causing a few legtingles at openleft:


I remember my reaction the first time I met John Holdren: my jaw was on the floor.
...
John Holdren has spent his career trying to save the planet: recently, that's meant doing everything he can to stop global warming. Before that, he accepted a Nobel Peace Prize on behalf of Pugwash for their attempts to stop nuclear proliferation.

But he's also a brilliant scientist. He won a MacArthur "genius" grant, has written dozens of books, and teaches at Harvard. It will be great having a President who takes his science advice from someone who truly knows and cares.

Hooray for Holdren!

242 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:00:26pm

re: #221 funky chicken

Frankly, parts of Africa are overpopulated in comparison to what the environment can sustain (like Somalia). Massive food aid from the West has kept them alive.

Could the "Palestinians" maintain their insane reproductive rates without massive aid from the West and Israel?

Good luck getting the "zero population growth" creeps to address those areas though.


yeah ... it's too bad that sort of thinking is too complex for our leaders to understand. abbas may be the palis' last chance to get something decent for themselves. but before bibi makes any deal with abbas, there must be regime change in iran. I see no chance of any real I/P peace as long as iran's current regime is in power.

Mr President ... please take note

243 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:00:32pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, I know that I am going to take a lot of heat for this, but I would like to pose this as a thought question.

[...]

So, imagine that we are approaching that point? What is the most humane thing to do?

the problem is very simple, more mouths than food.

You can do nothing. At this point, you really will have a law of the jungle. The people with the best guns will will kill the people who want the resources and the population problem gets solved by war.

Or perhaps you can limit the amount of children that people have and try to hold the population at a sustainable level. Which is more humane? Which has less suffering?

When Joseph became advisor to Pharoah and predicted 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine, he didn't recommend compulsory birth control or any of the fascist methods promoted by Holdren, he recommended stockpiling of available resources for the lean years ahead.

244 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:00:32pm
245 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:00:57pm

re: #30 reine.de.tout

Aha - the "gadgets". I knew they would be in there somewhere as frivolous and wasteful.
No Kindles for us.

Right. Let's cut down trees, instead.

Predicting the future is difficult, at best. Ehrlich and Holdern failed to foresee that the proliferation of gadgets - like telephones linked to cheap long-distance plans, the Internet and the proliferation of cheap personal computers - would have the unpredicted effect of reducing travel while encouraging the growth of continental and trans-continental business. To name just one thing they screwed up. They also missed the enormous creation of wealth out of thin air that the communication and electronic revolution spawned, lifting hundreds of millions worldwide out of poverty and into prosperity.

No, we should all be foregoing such things and aspiring to have everyone on the planet hovering the same distance, just above the muck, as possible.

246 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:01:11pm

re: #209 Dianna

I am as pessimistic about human nature as you are.

However, this is not a present crisis, and need never become one, given some fairly simple measures. Most of which are slipping in, usually without the oppressive governments managing to notice.

On this we agree. I never said it was a current crisis.

247 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:01:22pm

re: #83 EmmmieG

You would think they (the intellectual liberals who are currently in power) would notice that human happiness is inversely proportional to the level of force a government uses to try to control its people. It's not like there aren't hundreds of examples.

Unless, of course, human happiness is not one of their aims, which is a thought we ought to think about very, very carefully.

You've hit the nail on the head.

Human happiness is not their aim. Their aim is to be the ones in power, making the decisions that control the rest of us peons.

248 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:01:49pm

Meanwhile, during their visit the Pope gave Obama a booklet and Vatican document on bio-ethics explaining the Catholic Church's positions on abortion, stem-cell, cloning, etc.

So now the One has a book from Chavez and a book from the Pope. Bets on what he reads first?

249 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:02:41pm

re: #241 jaunte

Holdren causing a few legtingles at openleft:

Hooray for Holdren!

Ohhhh, he just wants to save the planet.....nevermind then. I thought he was a radical off base raving lunatic.....good thing those guys over on the left set me straight. Thanks for pointing that out Jaunte! :-)

250 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:02:50pm

re: #239 zombie

But, even granting your doomsday scenario, I'd still rather "let the chips fall where they may" and let the population level off "naturally" (even if that includes starvation) than force all 14 billion of us to live in a totalitarian hell.

When conditions are that bad, disease will start killing people faster than starvation will.

251 jamgarr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:03:30pm

re: #239 zombie

Anyone who has maintained a salt-water fish tank knows that well. The tiny organisms that eat the fish waste (so the water doesn't get toxic) can, understandably, thrive only in the presence of food (fish poo). It's a delicate balance - putting in fish with no poo cleaners to produce food for poo cleaners and counting on the cleaners to do their thing before the toxicity is lethal to the poo producers.

252 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:11pm

re: #249 Desert Dog

The fawning going on over Holdren at Democratic Underground is really insane.

253 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:32pm

re: #247 zombie

Just look at the recent price jump in soda in California, govt. says corn syrup is bad so they tax the companies that use the product not the ones that make it, so my six pack of ginger ale costs more than a six pack of sierra nevada I can thank Fancy Nancy et. al. create artificial controls and rape and pillage the benefits

254 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:33pm

re: #248 Pianobuff

Meanwhile, during their visit the Pope gave Obama a booklet and Vatican document on bio-ethics explaining the Catholic Church's positions on abortion, stem-cell, cloning, etc.

So now the One has a book from Chavez and a book from the Pope. Bets on what he reads first?

Neither

255 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:36pm

re: #118 kansas

Must have been a pretty damned little fence.

hahahahahahahahahahahaa

256 The Other Les  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:38pm

re: #247 zombie

You've hit the nail on the head.

Human happiness is not their aim. Their aim is to be the ones in power, making the decisions that control the rest of us peons.

I cannot emphasize this enough: For some people POWER IS LIFE!

257 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #96 subsailor68

Hi all! Just for info purposes, here's a link to the population growth rate, by country. You can alphabetize by country, or sort by growth rate.

Population Growth Rates

No comment on it, just a link for those who'd like to take a look.

;-)

I have an "overall" chart embedded in the report that summarizes global population trends - -and shows that they're starting to level off in Asia and Latin America (where the real problem had been), primarily due to better education and higher standards of living (which lead to lower birth rates).

258 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #243 Alouette

When Joseph became advisor to Pharoah and predicted 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine, he didn't recommend compulsory birth control or any of the fascist methods promoted by Holdren, he recommended stockpiling of available resources for the lean years ahead.

That's true, but if you reach the magic number, the lean years will never go away.

259 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:46pm

re: #248 Pianobuff

Meanwhile, during their visit the Pope gave Obama a booklet and Vatican document on bio-ethics explaining the Catholic Church's positions on abortion, stem-cell, cloning, etc.

So now the One has a book from Chavez and a book from the Pope. Bets on what he reads first?

Someone else besides 0bama can write something worth of reading? Perish the thought.

260 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:04:48pm

re: #248 Pianobuff

Meanwhile, during their visit the Pope gave Obama a booklet and Vatican document on bio-ethics explaining the Catholic Church's positions on abortion, stem-cell, cloning, etc.

So now the One has a book from Chavez and a book from the Pope. Bets on what he reads first?


Did our President reciprocate and give His Holiness a booklet on the koran explaining islam's positions on religious tolerance? Just askin'

261 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05:02pm

re: #240 LudwigVanQuixote

I distrust your use of the word "humane" at this point.

262 Syrah  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05:10pm

re: #252 jaunte

The fawning going on over Holdren at Democratic Underground is really insane.

For some of us, its about politics. For others, politics is religion.

263 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05:19pm

re: #252 jaunte

The fawning going on over Holdren at Democratic Underground is really insane.

Well, that tells me he is everything we fear he is then. Perhaps he should start with the mass sterilizations and abortions at DU first?

264 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05:27pm
265 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05:52pm

re: #260 _RememberTonyC

Did our President reciprocate and give His Holiness a booklet on the koran explaining islam's positions on religious tolerance? Just askin'

gave him an I-pod with the call to prayers on it.

266 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05:57pm
267 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:06:20pm

re: #260 _RememberTonyC

Did our President reciprocate and give His Holiness a booklet on the koran explaining islam's positions on religious tolerance? Just askin'

Good question... I'll play with Google a little bit and see if anything turns up. I just hope it wasn't a DVD of his Notre Dame speech.

268 sambor  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:06:33pm

zombie never ceases to amaze

thanks for all your hard work!

269 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:06:59pm

This is actually on topic: Science Dims In American Public's View

Americans still have high regard for scientists and the impact that science can have on society, but they are not so sure about the superiority of U.S. science, according to a new poll.

Only 17 percent of the public -- compared to 49 percent of scientists -- said that U.S. scientific achievements are the best in the world, according to a survey of the public and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) conducted by the Pew Research Center this spring.

No surprise the scientists hold themselves in high regard. Then there's this:

Despite the bad economy, scientists are upbeat about their profession. Three quarters of those surveyed said these are good times for science and their specialties.

That opinion may be related to politics, the survey notes. More than half of the scientists identified themselves as Democrats and liberals, and many said they are optimistic about the Obama administration's impact on science.

Translation: Politicized science is fine if it agrees with our politics, especially since we can probably get grant money for it.

270 funky chicken  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:07:01pm

re: #217 zombie

Yep. Higher levels of education for women, and more freedom for women = lower birth rates.

271 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:07:02pm

re: #257 zombie

I have an "overall" chart embedded in the report that summarizes global population trends - -and shows that they're starting to level off in Asia and Latin America (where the real problem had been), primarily due to better education and higher standards of living (which lead to lower birth rates).

Actually, the main reason for population decline in Africa is the Aids rate, followed by warfare.

272 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:07:03pm

re: #253 GOPManHatTanIte

Just look at the recent price jump in soda in California, govt. says corn syrup is bad so they tax the companies that use the product not the ones that make it, so my six pack of ginger ale costs more than a six pack of sierra nevada I can thank Fancy Nancy et. al. create artificial controls and rape and pillage the benefits

Just whip out some of these to pay for it.

273 jamgarr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:08:09pm

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

I guess one of those porcelain huts in the fish tank is The House at Poo Cleaners.

/sorry, couldn't help myself


Back in the day we used to go to a small club where Jim Ibbotson played. He'd always do The House at Pooh Corner. Good times!

274 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:08:42pm

re: #261 Dianna

I distrust your use of the word "humane" at this point.

Why? For saying that our current medical system has well known flaws and that it is not clear to me that the government would do it worse? I am not saying I think they would do it better. I am just not convinced they would do it worse.

275 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:08:56pm

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

I guess one of those porcelain huts in the fish tank is The House at Poo Cleaners.

/sorry, couldn't help myself

That's a load of crap.....oh no, more potty puns! ahhhhhhhh

276 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:08:56pm

re: #272 Desert Dog

Ha...although i do have a monthly bar tab and a line of credit at the local butcher

277 JHW  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:09:13pm
278 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:09:20pm

What I find most disturbing about this is Holdren's apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump from that right into recommending totalitarian measures -- and 32 years later, he was very clearly wrong in his alarmism.

Raises the question of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

279 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:09:26pm
280 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:10:18pm
281 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:10:19pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, I know that I am going to take a lot of heat for this, but I would like to pose this as a thought question.

Suppose, just suppose, we actually did reach a point where there were more people on the Earth than the Earth could feed. This is not utterly stupid to propose. The Earth is finite, it can only produce so much food per year.

Before we got to that point though, there would be more people on the planet than there would be potable water.

From what I have read, the "magic number" for this, following current trends - and *not* taking pollution into account is about 12 billion souls. Even if the magic number is 14 or 20 billion it does not matter to this argument. At some point, you can imagine that there are more people than resources. Yes, this is Malthusian. Calling it that does not make the facts that people need water and food - and that there is only so much on a given planet, go away.

If people can not get water, they will die. This is not arguable. If people are desperate for food and water, something so utterly basic, they have absolutely nothing to loose if they try to take it. The other option is death by dehydration or starvation. Telling them to just behave and die quietly is not a real option.

So, imagine that we are approaching that point? What is the most humane thing to do?

the problem is very simple, more mouths than food.

You can do nothing. At this point, you really will have a law of the jungle. The people with the best guns will will kill the people who want the resources and the population problem gets solved by war.

Or perhaps you can limit the amount of children that people have and try to hold the population at a sustainable level. Which is more humane? Which has less suffering?

I am not saying that we are at that point. I am not saying that I want to see that point. However, this is not an outrageous view that needs to be recanted. It is an unfortunate and unhappy reality.

Not so much. What is happening in reality is that the population is leveling off; the more civilizations advance, the more their birthrate drops. Current projections indicate that world population growth has slowed dramatically as a larger and larger portion of the population gets educated and moves beyond subsistence agriculture as their predominant way of life; large families become less necessary, and resources are focused on getting fewer and fewer offspring through more and more educational institutions required to enable them to compete in a technologically advanced society. Projections by the UN predict that world population will peak by 2050 at around 10 billion and then decline thereafter as the remaining impoverished regions of the world move from third world to second or first world status.

Another, less rosy component of population stabilization and eventual decline is the emergence of diseases like AIDs. Without significant advances in medicine (which are entirely unpredictable) current trends in Africa suggest that the population of the entire continent will begin to collapse within a couple of decades, and rapidly decline thereafter, decimated by the spread of AIDs and the dearth of medical care and infrastructure there.

But even without the four horsemen running rampant, it seems inevitable that human birthrates and population will peak and and begin to decline in the near future, a reality that is absent from Malthusian outlooks such as the one outlined above.

282 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:10:23pm

re: #271 LudwigVanQuixote

Africa wasn't where the problem was - Africa, tragically, has always been limited by disease and warfare.

283 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:10:32pm

re: #267 Pianobuff

Good question... I'll play with Google a little bit and see if anything turns up. I just hope it wasn't a DVD of his Notre Dame speech.


notre dame speech, cairo speech .... it all sounds the same to me ...


blah blah change blah blah yes we can ... blah blah blah we are the ones we've been waiting for ... blah blah the oceans will recede ...

it's become one big yawner to me ... wake me when Mitt Romney announces he's running in '12.

284 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:10:54pm

re: #278 Charles

What I find most disturbing about this is Holdren's apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump from that right into recommending totalitarian measures -- and 32 years later, he was very clearly wrong in his alarmism.

Raises the issue of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

Based on President Obama's willingness to go full bore at every problem, all at once, perhaps it is not an accident a guy like Holdren will hold sway at court?

285 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:11:02pm

re: #273 jamgarr

Back in the day we used to go to a small club where Jim Ibbotson played. He'd always do The House at Pooh Corner. Good times!

Say what?

286 The Other Les  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:11:05pm

re: #269 doppelganglander

Translation: Politicized science is fine if it agrees with our politics, especially since we can probably get grant money for it.


There's a difference between doing science and doing the Monica.

;-)

287 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:11:14pm

re: #278 Charles

There's something unsettling about an absolutely assured, committed technocrat who believes he has all the answers.

288 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:11:18pm

re: #280 Killgore Trout

Michelle Malkin's take: The ghoulish spirit of Margaret Sanger lives

Great video there also...now posted here.

289 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:11:29pm

re: #271 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, the main reason for population decline in Africa is the Aids rate, followed by warfare.

Zombie never mentioned Africa, Ludwig. Zombie only mentioned Asia and Latin America.

For you to read again:

re: #257 zombie

I have an "overall" chart embedded in the report that summarizes global population trends - -and shows that they're starting to level off in Asia and Latin America (where the real problem had been), primarily due to better education and higher standards of living (which lead to lower birth rates).

290 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:11:46pm

re: #278 Charles

What I find most disturbing about this is Holdren's apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump from that right into recommending totalitarian measures -- and 32 years later, he was very clearly wrong in his alarmism.

Raises the issue of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.


Just saying, with Geithner at Treasury, Daschle as the one he wanted for HHS, every selection by 0bama has been proclaimed as the best person or only person for the job.

291 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:11:57pm

re: #279 taxfreekiller

I think I met you or someone just like you from Earth First at a Greenpeace meeting in Washington State in the late 1970's, we did not agree then, nor do we agree now. Back then I was asked to leave or,"else".

Just dying to ask: or else what?

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:12:09pm

re: #278 Charles

What I find most disturbing about this is Holdren's apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump from that right into recommending totalitarian measures -- and 32 years later, he was very clearly wrong in his alarmism.

Raises the issue of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

I would point out, though, that the 70s were a somewhat fevered time, and that it is 32 years later. I'd like to see him address this, and hear where he is now.

293 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:12:25pm

re: #278 Charles

What I find most disturbing about this is Holdren's apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump from that right into recommending totalitarian measures -- and 32 years later, he was very clearly wrong in his alarmism.

Raises the issue of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

And, consideering his hatred for our nation's military and our nukes, I'm worried about any input he's had on nuclear arms.

294 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:12:26pm

re: #278 Charles

What I find most disturbing about this is Holdren's apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump from that right into recommending totalitarian measures -- and 32 years later, he was very clearly wrong in his alarmism.

Raises the issue of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

Possible White House Press Release (complete with speeling errors): "The best way to learn is from past mistakes, we feel this type of experience is optimal for all of our advisiors and staf. Just lerning from a mistake proviedes the most best way to make less mistakes in the future."

295 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:12:29pm

Speculation on the gift that Obama gave the Pope.....from WAPO.

For five days, DiCocco and the state department officials went back and forth, trying to strike the right balance of history, significance and sentiment. A lot was at stake. Not just American-Vatican relations (the perfect gift just might be the thing to spark a warm discussion), but also in the balance was Obama's reputation as a decent gift giver (re: critics' howls when Obama gave Queen Elizabeth that iPod).

At first, DiCocco suggested an antique chalice his family had in their shop that could be traced back to the 1920s -- a parish priest style gold-plated cup with a highly engraved base. Written around the mouth of the chalice were the words, "Sanctus, Sanctus, Santus," meaning "holy, holy, holy."

The cup had history and character but they kept looking.

DiCocco reached out to friends and contacts in the American Catholic community. Some of them at the Redemptorist order mentioned a sacred relic from the saint, John Neumann, in their possession.

The Redemptorists, an order of Catholic priests and brothers that originated in 1732 at Naples, traced their roots in the U.S. to 1842, when Neumann became the first Redemptorist to profess vows in America. Neumann, helped build up the U.S. Catholic school and parish system and ministered especially to German immigrants in Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

The Redemptorist order had a stole that had been draped on top of his remains at a Philadelphia shrine to Neumann, who was declared a saint in 1977. The stole, a long scarf-like garment that is worn around a priest's neck, had lain with Neumann's body for 18 years until it was removed in 2007.

When DiCocco suggested the stole to the state department, "it was just kind of a no-brainer," he said. "It was just the right touch of American Catholic history and relevance. I mean, here was this saint, an immigrant who came to America and did so much beautiful work."

Not trusting the stole to others, DiCocco personally picked it up, drove it to Washington and hand-delivered it last week to government officials.

The White House has declined to confirm the gift or discuss it before the tomorrow's meeting between Obama and Benedict. The Redemptorist order, however, said in a statement today that it was "a delight" to be able to give something to the Holy Father.

"We're giving the gift because it was asked for by our government to be given to the pope, and it's an honor," said Al Bradley, an official with the order.

296 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:12:48pm

re: #251 jamgarr

Anyone who has maintained a salt-water fish tank knows that well. The tiny organisms that eat the fish waste (so the water doesn't get toxic) can, understandably, thrive only in the presence of food (fish poo). It's a delicate balance - putting in fish with no poo cleaners to produce food for poo cleaners and counting on the cleaners to do their thing before the toxicity is lethal to the poo producers.

I always considered trying to set up a saltwater tank, but I primarily stuck with freshwater. I did have a 135 gallon tank with some huge fish (plecostomas, catfish, spotted gar, oscar) and while it may not have been as colorful as salt, it was still an amazing ecosystem to watch.

I know that's off-topic to the metaphor, but it was a positive memory triggered from it (until some individual accidentally poured a gin & tonic into the tank...)

297 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:13:39pm

re: #185 Lincolntf

There's nothing more dangerous to the AGW nuts than a person who knows how to read a thermometer.

And looks at previous high and low temperature records.

298 jamgarr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:14:13pm

re: #285 MandyManners


Nitty Gritty Dirt Band did House at Pooh Corner (can't tell you which album). Ibbotson sang it. In the early 70's Ibbotson played with a band from Colorado called Colours which toured the college circuit.

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:14:18pm

BTW, speaking of the future, one of my students believe that "Europe" is a pronoun, according to this test I am correcting.

300 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:14:22pm
301 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW, speaking of the future, one of my students believe that "Europe" is a pronoun, according to this test I am correcting.

BELIEVES. Good grief. It's rubbing off.

302 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:14:45pm

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

I would point out, though, that the 70s were a somewhat fevered time, and that it is 32 years later. I'd like to see him address this, and hear where he is now.

If I recall correctly....I heard that Time magazine ran something in the 70's about how scientists were wanting Government funding to melt the polar ice caps due to global COOLING?...my how times change...

303 jvic  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:14:47pm

From the link:

While the plan is not White House policy, Professor Holdren said it was likely to be considered. “At the moment the Administration has not developed a policy on it,” he said. “But I think much of the world is now ready for this and I think it will be considered as a possible approach.”

Yeah, well I'm wondering about the part of the world that is not ready for it.

It is insane to issue this statement while Iran races toward nuclear weapons and NoKo has them. Holdren should be fired.

What a pretext he is handing to rogue states! "We'll halt our program (not that snicker we have one) as soon as all enrichment is brought under international supervision. Promise." If they establish a Nobel Price in Useful Idiocy, Holdren should get the first one.

304 GOPManHatTanIte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:14:59pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe he improperly spelled proper

305 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:15:05pm

re: #300 taxfreekiller

I was told in the parking lot as I left that they had me on a watch list,
that I was very bad for the "cause", that the Earth was in danger, and
that they the Earth First people would "do what ever it took" to take care of the earth and that that included dealing with me.

like that


Earth First is, well, nuts.

306 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:15:07pm

re: #300 taxfreekiller

I was told in the parking lot as I left that they had me on a watch list,
that I was very bad for the "cause", that the Earth was in danger, and
that they the Earth First people would "do what ever it took" to take care of the earth and that that included dealing with me.

like that

I guess if they would spike trees, they would deal with you just as kindly. Glad you left so you could hang around here with us, today.

307 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:15:11pm

re: #274 LudwigVanQuixote

Why? For saying that our current medical system has well known flaws and that it is not clear to me that the government would do it worse? I am not saying I think they would do it better. I am just not convinced they would do it worse.

Where's your sarc tag?
You can't be serious.
The government has no business in any business, let alone medicine.

308 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:15:47pm

re: #287 jaunte

There's something unsettling about an absolutely assured, committed technocrat who believes he has all the answers.

There's something unsettling about an absolutely assured, committed Obama who believes he has all the answers........

309 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:15:48pm

re: #279 taxfreekiller

I think I met you or someone just like you from Earth First at a Greenpeace meeting in Washington State in the late 1970's, we did not agree then, nor do we agree now. Back then I was asked to leave or,"else".

Easy now, I am not advocating population police. I am saying the simple fact that if the world has more people on it than it can feed, bad things would happen.

This is not something you can easily dispute.

Charles has a good point. If Holden really was advocating things in the 70's when the issue was clearly not looming - nor is it today, it says something about his ability to soberly look at data.

However, if, God forbid, that ever did become a reality, the choices are population reduction by warfare, starvation and disease vs. population reduction by limiting births. Either way, the population would get reduced.

As I have said a dozen times, the way to avoid that sort of future is by having more and more career minded women who have fewer children.

310 The Other Les  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:15:56pm

re: #278 Charles

What I find most disturbing about this is Holdren's apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump from that right into recommending totalitarian measures -- and 32 years later, he was very clearly wrong in his alarmism.

Raises the issue of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

He's mentally rewriting reality in order to create and maintain a image of himself as being a hero. Since he is apparently unable or unwilling to do things to save or uplift human life he persistently takes positions that are fundamentally damaging or destructive to human life.

He's embraced what Ayn Rand used to call the Death Premise.

311 jamgarr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:16:03pm

re: #296 MrSilverDragon


I quit the saltwater thing when about $500 worth of fish died in 3 days!

312 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:16:14pm

re: #307 IslandLibertarian

Where's your sarc tag?
You can't be serious.
The government has no business in any business, let alone medicine.

I second the notion!

All in favor of a sarc tag...say "Aye!"

313 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:16:43pm

re: #257 zombie

I have an "overall" chart embedded in the report that summarizes global population trends - -and shows that they're starting to level off in Asia and Latin America (where the real problem had been), primarily due to better education and higher standards of living (which lead to lower birth rates).

Exactly right. These charts, as well as many similar ones from independent sources, suggest that world population will peak by mid-century and then begin to decline from a high of (very) roughly ten billion. This is well within the realm of sustainability, assuming we can continue to raise crops using the amounts of fertilizer and pesticides that high-yield cultivars demand.

A return to the farming methods of our grandparents, favored by environmentalists, will immediately result in a reduction of yields by a factor of 30 to 40 times less than what is currently enjoyed. See "The Omnivore's Dilemma," by Michael Pollan, for details.

314 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:16:47pm

re: #295 Pianobuff

I thought he'd give the Pope a membership to eHarmony.com....seeing how Mr. Pope apparently does not have a "Mrs. Pope" hanging around that fancy church he lives in.

315 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:17:09pm

re: #283 _RememberTonyC

wake me when Mitt Romney announces he's running in '12.

But he is unelectable.

/

316 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:17:11pm

re: #304 GOPManHatTanIte

Maybe he improperly spelled proper

I would love to believe that--but it's a multiple choice test. They're not doing so hot on this one.

Nice kids, but they ain't ready for high school.

317 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:17:36pm

re: #295 Pianobuff

If that's true I'd say the White House got it right for once.

318 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:17:43pm

I didn't see a link to the complete text in Zombie's report. You can read the book online for free....
Ecoscience: Population, Resources, Environment

319 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:17:55pm

re: #295 Pianobuff


Good post .... I guess his "Catholic outreach coordinator" is doing better at protocol than the first bozo they had. I'm glad the WAB didn't bring toy helicopters rom the White House gift shop for the Pope's kids.

320 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:18:07pm

re: #314 Desert Dog

I thought he'd give the Pope a membership to eHarmony.com....seeing how Mr. Pope apparently does not have a "Mrs. Pope" hanging around that fancy church he lives in.

I am waiting for President Obama to offer The Pope his Holy Writ, "Prairie Fire", written by his Apostle and Mentor Bill Ayers...

321 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:18:51pm

re: #315 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But he is unelectable.

/


lol ... not any more!

322 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:18:58pm

re: #281 SixDegrees

Ummm, I already said that the reason why Holden was wrong and that Europe and America have seen a leveling off was a different socio-economic position for women.

I think you are reading things into what I said that are not there.

What I am saying, just to be really clear is that if everyone had children at a rate greater than replacement , sooner or later, the planet, being finite would not be able to support them all. At that point, bad things would happen.

This is not something that can really be debated.

323 Eowyn2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:19:09pm

What is Holdren's current 'crisis' ?

The overpopulation route did not work - though I am sure he and the Ehrlichs will take credit for people becoming 'responsible' because they read his book.

Climate change is the newest and bestest yet. Because, climate change can be directly related to the overpopulation, overindulgence, over the top, US citizenry. More than any other in the world, the US citizen is responsible for climate change. And we MUST curtail our habits. As the saying goes, 'if your child eats today, another child goes hungry'

/

324 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:19:28pm
325 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:20:10pm

re: #287 jaunte

There's something unsettling about an absolutely assured, committed technocrat who believes he has all the answers.

The late Robert Strange McNamara was a prime example. A genius of statistical analysis, he refused to believe in any other test of success. He and Holdren were polar opposites in most ways, but kindred spirits in their ruthless self-assurance.

326 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:20:13pm

Later all. Gotta script some stuff.

327 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:20:37pm

re: #326 Oh no...Sand People!

Later all. Gotta script some stuff.

Bye!

328 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:20:43pm

re: #289 Honorary Yooper

I was looking at the charts that were linked to. Africa was on them. But you are correct, She did not mention Africa.

329 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:20:55pm

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

330 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:20:56pm

re: #319 _RememberTonyC

Good post .... I guess his "Catholic outreach coordinator" is doing better at protocol than the first bozo they had. I'm glad the WAB didn't bring toy helicopters rom the White House gift shop for the Pope's kids.

The little holy bastards! They would love the helicopters though, come on!

331 jvic  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:21:54pm

re: #303 jvic

My sleep patterns are messed up and it's affecting my posting. The referenced post is a reply to J.D. #5.

I'll say the bottom line again. If they create a Nobel Prize for Useful Idiocy, Holdren should get the first one.

332 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:21:56pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

Kinda like Mein Kampf in the 1920's? A harmless little book, really.

333 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:22:36pm

re: #274 LudwigVanQuixote

I distrust your usage, not because I view any insurance company with great favor, but because there's very little you can't eventually extract from a private entity. Government rationing will most certainly not be humane. re: #300 taxfreekiller

I was told in the parking lot as I left that they had me on a watch list,
that I was very bad for the "cause", that the Earth was in danger, and
that they the Earth First people would "do what ever it took" to take care of the earth and that that included dealing with me.

like that

Did you fall over laughing?

334 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:22:38pm

re: #323 Eowyn2

What is Holdren's current 'crisis' ?

The overpopulation route did not work - though I am sure he and the Ehrlichs will take credit for people becoming 'responsible' because they read his book.

Climate change is the newest and bestest yet. Because, climate change can be directly related to the overpopulation, overindulgence, over the top, US citizenry. More than any other in the world, the US citizen is responsible for climate change. And we MUST curtail our habits. As the saying goes, 'if your child eats today, another child goes hungry'

/

Except that the science on climate change is very solid. There are mountains of real data to support it and solid predictions have come to pass. This really is real whether or not you like Al Gore or Holden or Obama or anyone.

335 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:22:43pm

re: #320 Oh no...Sand People!

I am waiting for President Obama to offer The Pope his Holy Writ, "Prairie Fire", written by his Apostle and Mentor Bill Ayers...


or hand the Pontiff a copy of "The Audacity of Hope" or "Dreams of my Father."

336 Desert Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:22:45pm

I have to go fix the symbolic fence...see you all later

337 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:22:49pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

And who, my friend, gets to define what a disaster scenario is?

338 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:23:08pm

re: #332 Desert Dog

Kinda like Mein Kampf in the 1920's? A harmless little book, really.

Bullseye.

339 JustABill  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:24:03pm

re: #331 jvic

My sleep patterns are messed up and it's affecting my posting. The referenced post is a reply to J.D. #5.

I'll say the bottom line again. If they create a Nobel Prize for Useful Idiocy, Holdren should get the first one.

Knowing what I know about the people doling out Nobel Prizes, they already do, its called the "Peace" Prize.

340 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:24:04pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

"HYPOTHETICAL'
"WRITTEN 32 YEARS AGO"
"ONLY CO-AUTHORED"

Ready made answers for Press Secretary Robert Gibbs!

341 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:24:30pm

re: #309 LudwigVanQuixote

Easy now, I am not advocating population police. I am saying the simple fact that if the world has more people on it than it can feed, bad things would happen.

Yes. But this is neither imminent nor likely. There is no problem at all providing everyone on the planet with enough food, now or in the future. The United States alone, in fact, could provide enough food for the entire planet without much increase in current production.

The only problem is in distribution. Vast amounts of food winds up rotting in transit or sitting in warehouses, or is withheld from populaces kept in thrall while resources are diverted to those in political favor.

Population is not the problem, and won't be in any realistic projection of the future. Tyranny, on the other hand, very well may be.

342 tyree  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:24:41pm

This was the message that I grew up with: "The world is coming to end due to overpopulation".
Soylent Green was playing in the movie theaters, followed a decade later by "Blade Runner", with it's massively overpopulated Los Angeles. "Lost in Space" was based on the premise as was at least one episode of "Star Trek". The left was all over that idea and there booming message was, "Don't even think about having any children."
And then in the 80's they passed sanctuary city policies and encouraged tens of millions of illegal aliens to settle and start families. Any opposition was shouted down as racism. It couldn't be that a few of us were actually concerned about the environment, water supply, oil supply, overcrowding or anything like that. There was only one message allowed, "All who oppose illegal immigration are racist Republicans."

343 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:24:47pm

re: #330 Desert Dog

The little holy bastards! They would love the helicopters though, come on!


glad you picked up on that.

344 Syrah  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:25:30pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

What would be considered crises enough?

How is that line to be drawn? Who gets to draw it?

Can we trust the caution of people who would declare a War On Poverty?

345 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

Hypothetical disaster scenarios are how Obama likes to do things.
They are what got Cap and Trade through the House.

346 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:27:49pm

re: #322 LudwigVanQuixote


What I am saying, just to be really clear is that if everyone had children at a rate greater than replacement , sooner or later, the planet, being finite would not be able to support them all. At that point, bad things would happen.

This is not something that can really be debated.

It also has nothing whatsoever to do with reality. It is a statement of a problem that doesn't exist and is never going to arise.

347 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:28:33pm
Perhaps those agencies, combined with UNEP and the United Nations population agencies, might eventually be developed into a Planetary Regime—sort of an international superagency for population, resources, and environment. Such a comprehensive Planetary Regime could control the development, administration, conservation, and distribution of all natural resources, renewable or nonrenewable, at least insofar as international implications exist.


The Birchers are going to love that one.

348 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:29:18pm

re: #341 SixDegrees

Yes. But this is neither imminent nor likely. There is no problem at all providing everyone on the planet with enough food, now or in the future. The United States alone, in fact, could provide enough food for the entire planet without much increase in current production.

The only problem is in distribution. Vast amounts of food winds up rotting in transit or sitting in warehouses, or is withheld from populaces kept in thrall while resources are diverted to those in political favor.

Population is not the problem, and won't be in any realistic projection of the future. Tyranny, on the other hand, very well may be.

I think the key point regarding Holdren is his instinctive response to how to deal with this 'hypothetical' crisis. And that response is instructive of the leftist mindset, shared by Obama, which is to impose draconian, authoritarian controls enforced by the power of the State. And this from the very generation whose mantra was "Question Authority". Well, I certainly question theirs and this should be a cautionary note to all.

349 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:29:31pm

re: #345 Lincolntf

I cap and trade dead yet? I haven't been following that one.

350 Tamron  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:29:36pm

re: #58 J.S.

I think the author, Ben Johnson, of the FrontPageMagazine article, "Obama's Biggest Radical" (published February 27, 2009) made a very interesting observation in the introductory paragraph. Johnson wrote: "When Barack Obama nominated John P. Holdren as his Science Adviser last December 20, the president-elect stated 'promoting science isn’t just about providing resources' but 'ensuring that facts and evidence are never twisted or obscured by politics or ideology.' In nominating John Holdren, his words could scarcely have taken a more Orwellian ring." Indeed, it is Obama's obfuscation (if not outright lies) about his appointees that's equally problematic. I find it astounding. (and, note, the press ignores all of this?)


Last year I thought that this article on the Daily KOS website was just a rant by a lone-wolf nutbag, but it now turns out to be a major ongoing policy in Obama's administration:

Daily KOS advice: LIE TO THEM.

Expect deliberate ongoing lies, and you won't be disappointed.
.

351 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:29:48pm

re: #147 Alouette

I left a post at ZomBlog:

I have 9 children and 22 grandchildren. Come and get me, Planetary Regime coppers! BWAHAHAHA!

Oh and BTW, I'M A JOO!

Let me add:

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

352 Spartacus50  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:29:50pm

Eugenics II: Bring On the Sequel

353 lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:29:53pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout

Passed the House, going to the Senate.

354 RoughRider  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:30:04pm

re: #174 Pianobuff

I hope that a major media outlet picks up on this story and, further, that you are duly credited. Very Nice Work!

I submitted the link to Drudge.

355 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:31:30pm

re: #258 LudwigVanQuixote

That's true, but if you reach the magic number, the lean years will never go away.

Who calculated the magic number? What is the equation?

356 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:31:34pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

Have you noticed that this appears to be a strong indication of fundamental mindset on the part of the person/s who wrote these passages?

You are correct, but still, these passages are in there.

357 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:31:59pm

re: #354 RoughRider

It makes me cringe to even suggest this but Glenn Beck would be all over this.

358 Syrah  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:32:17pm

re: #350 Tamron

Last year I thought that this article on the Daily KOS website was just a rant by a lone-wolf nutbag, but it now turns out to be a major ongoing policy in Obama's administration:

Daily KOS advice: LIE TO THEM.

Expect deliberate ongoing lies, and you won't be disappointed.
.

They live in a completely different reality.

359 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:33:09pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout

I cap and trade dead yet? I haven't been following that one.

It's rotting on the Senate floor right now. Apparently some of the Democratic Senators are balking at it. Last I saw, they're going to wait until September to vote on it.

360 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:33:11pm

re: #358 Syrah

They live in a completely different reality.

Heh....yeah, one where the left is interested in truth and facts....

361 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:33:12pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

It makes me cringe to even suggest this but Glenn Beck would SHOULD be all over this.

ftfy

362 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:33:20pm

re: #356 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You are correct, but still, these passages are in there.


agreed.

363 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:33:22pm

re: #307 IslandLibertarian

Where's your sarc tag?
You can't be serious.
The government has no business in any business, let alone medicine.

No sarc tag buddy.

Scientific research does not follow the same rules as the free market. If it did, all research would be on making a better DVD player and no pure research would get done.

I bring this as an example where we have all benefitted from a government "business."

Who would have thought that looking quantum-mechanically into the conduction bands of semi-conductors would have been a good idea or one worth investing in? How would you sell pure research into solid state physics to a board in today's economy?

Of course, we got the transistor from this - and the computer you are reading this on. Lots of money got made, but that is only because the people at bell labs took the risk of financing the research. Bell labs got closed. It was not considered profitable. If the government did not fund the research we would not have it.

The other reason I bring this, is that the main argument that people make against socialized medicine is some sort of Adam Smith argument about corporate research. Given that huge amounts of research get done already on the government dime, it is not clear to me that this is a slam dunk argument.

Now on to medicine. I am NOT saying we should socialize it. However, I am not saying our current system is all that great either, and if you are going to make it sound like socialized medicine would be the end of the world, I would like to know why it would be so much worse than what we have now.

Also, before you tell me horror stories about English socialized medicine, I would counter that Israeli medicine is very good - and it is free to all citizens.

364 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:33:43pm

The whole tone of the book Ecoscience is about as faithless and anti-life as you can get.

These are scary times.

365 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:33:45pm

re: #359 Honorary Yooper

Does this mean someone will actually have time to read it?

366 Kenneth  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:33:55pm

Live video of Obama in Ghana!

367 Syrah  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:34:22pm

re: #360 eschew_obfuscation

Heh....yeah, one where the left is interested in truth and facts....

The Kossling that wrote that piece believes every word of what he wrote.

368 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:34:33pm

re: #176 LudwigVanQuixote

Don't you think you are overstating things a bit? There is a big difference between a possible future of overpopulation - and pointing out that no, if you reach that point, bad things really will happen, and the possibility that congress or the president or even the authors - were proposing enacting laws in the seventies that would be appropriate to such an overpopulated world.

Then you fall into Category 4 in my premptive list of excuses:

"4. What he said really isn't that egregious: in fact, it seems pretty reasonable. "

If you think such laws would be appropriate, then I guess you're happy with Holdren's appointment. That's fine. It's a free country. (For now, at least.)

369 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:34:41pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

It makes me cringe to even suggest this but Glenn Beck would be all over this.

Killgore, that's the first thing I thought of when I read the passage in the book. Holdren just gave the Bircher nuts ammo.

370 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:35:03pm

re: #355 Alouette

Who calculated the magic number? What is the equation?

Also, how can we now figure out the magic number without a crystal ball? 200 years ago, we would have thought the magic number was lower, because we weren't as good at getting crops out of the ground. (Also, we might have been worrying about a shortage of whale oil for our lamps. Only so many whales, y'know.)

There will be technological breakthroughs. There will be wars. There will be more predictions of doom.

I feel I can make these predictions with perfect certainty.

371 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:35:05pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

Paul Ehrlich was, and still is, an icon of the environmental movement. The disaster scenarios put forward in Ecoscience were presented as more than hypothetical, as were the very similar claims in the Population Bomb. They were a rationale for drastic action and the template for industrial scale environmental lobbying and advocacy. Many of the proposals were in fact accepted, though not the most drastic. Even so, these affect many aspects of our daily lives, from the design of our cars to the kind of lights we can put in our own homes to the chronic shortage of petroleum refining capacity and the continued demonization of nuclear power that perpetuates our dependence on imported oil.
Ehrlich himself has recanted many of his earlier claims. Why can't Holdren do the same?

372 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:35:27pm

re: #318 Killgore Trout

I didn't see a link to the complete text in Zombie's report. You can read the book online for free....
Ecoscience: Population, Resources, Environment

I have to fix a fence.

373 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:36:10pm

re: #348 LGoPs

I think the key point regarding Holdren is his instinctive response to how to deal with this 'hypothetical' crisis. And that response is instructive of the leftist mindset, shared by Obama, which is to impose draconian, authoritarian controls enforced by the power of the State. And this from the very generation whose mantra was "Question Authority". Well, I certainly question theirs and this should be a cautionary note to all.

I would completely agree that Holdren's proposed solutions to past situations are beyond disturbing; I would characterize some of them as being outright evil.

That many of his projections were flat-out wrong by huge margins is even more disturbing, given that he was willing to apply ghastly measures to correct the outcomes predicted by such badly analyzed scenarios.

374 lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:36:15pm

re: #369 Honorary Yooper

Holdren didn't, Obama did. He's the one who appointed a fruitcake to a major policy-making post.

375 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:36:38pm

re: #190 IslandLibertarian

The reason there is starvation and lack of fresh water in portions of Africa has nothing to do with overpopulation or scarcity of food and water. It is because of oppressive governments/thugs.
People stood in lines for bread in the Soviet Union 50 years ago.
This whole Population Bomb scare is bullshit!

Thank you for saying that!

376 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:36:59pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

No sarc tag buddy.

Scientific research does not follow the same rules as the free market. If it did, all research would be on making a better DVD player and no pure research would get done.

I bring this as an example where we have all benefitted from a government "business."

Who would have thought that looking quantum-mechanically into the conduction bands of semi-conductors would have been a good idea or one worth investing in? How would you sell pure research into solid state physics to a board in today's economy?

Of course, we got the transistor from this - and the computer you are reading this on. Lots of money got made, but that is only because the people at bell labs took the risk of financing the research. Bell labs got closed. It was not considered profitable. If the government did not fund the research we would not have it.

The other reason I bring this, is that the main argument that people make against socialized medicine is some sort of Adam Smith argument about corporate research. Given that huge amounts of research get done already on the government dime, it is not clear to me that this is a slam dunk argument.

Now on to medicine. I am NOT saying we should socialize it. However, I am not saying our current system is all that great either, and if you are going to make it sound like socialized medicine would be the end of the world, I would like to know why it would be so much worse than what we have now.

Also, before you tell me horror stories about English socialized medicine, I would counter that Israeli medicine is very good - and it is free to all citizens.

Oh really? I wonder how they got the doctors and hospital staff to work for free? That's pretty cool!

And....what do you consider to be wrong with our current health care system?

377 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:37:06pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

I thought I did in my post. Still, though, in order for these kinds of tactics to have any effect they'd have to be implemented before a massive crisis -- food shortages, famines, etc. -- because once you're in that state it's a little too late to start worrying about sterilizing people.

378 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:37:26pm

re: #368 zombie

I for one am not happy with Holdren's appointment, no, not happy; there is a chill descending, it is of a piece with "punished with a baby".

This is a wrong track, it leads to very bad places.

379 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:37:41pm

re: #365 BlueCanuck

Does this mean someone will actually have time to read it?

Who are you kidding? They're on summer vacation.

380 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:38:10pm

Here's another Holdren story that brings to mind thoughts about hubris and unintended consequences:

WASHINGTON (AP) - The president's new science adviser said Wednesday that global warming is so dire, the Obama administration is discussing radical technologies to cool Earth's air.

John Holdren told The Associated Press in his first interview since being confirmed last month that the idea of geoengineering the climate is being discussed. One such extreme option includes shooting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere to reflect the sun's rays. Holdren said such an experimental measure would only be used as a last resort.

"It's got to be looked at," he said. "We don't have the luxury of taking any approach off the table."
...
Holdren noted that shooting particles into the air—making an artificial volcano as one Nobel laureate has suggested—could have grave side effects and would not completely solve all the problems from soaring greenhouse gas emissions. So such actions could not be taken lightly, he said.

Still, "we might get desperate enough to want to use it," he added. [Link: www.breitbart.com...]

381 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:38:25pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

It's been mentioned. But the gleeful jump to totalitarian control measures is troubling.

382 soxfan4life  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:38:39pm

re: #365 BlueCanuck

Does this mean someone will actually have time to read it?

We can't have any of that. Quick to the crisis cave, what can we conjure up to get these people to rally around global warming?

383 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:38:49pm

re: #378 Ojoe

I for one am not happy with Holdren's appointment, no, not happy; there is a chill descending, it is of a piece with "punished with a baby".

This is a wrong track, it leads to very bad places.

Stop trying to impose your beliefs on every one else!
///

384 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:40:10pm

re: #380 jaunte

Gee....and we spent all of those billions in the 70's reducing pollution in our cities when we could have prevented global warming by doing nothing!
//

385 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:40:20pm

re: #383 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I just like children, having been one and having some. Sorry

////////

386 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:40:23pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

The number is exactly eleventy brazillion.

387 sngnsgt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:40:44pm

OT

Just on FOX: Generic General Motors is now Government Motors.

388 avanti  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:40:47pm

re: #118 kansas

Must have been a pretty damned little fence.

It's only a 8 foot section, but I can't stay out of the AC for very long, so I pop in and out.

389 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:40:58pm

re: #380 jaunte

Here's another Holdren story that brings to mind thoughts about hubris and unintended consequences:

We could get plenty of particulates into the atmosphere just by rolling back certain costly environmental requirements.

390 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:41:02pm

re: #383 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Stop trying to impose your beliefs on every one else!
///

Yeah, let our betters, Holdern, Obama, etal, do that.

/..

391 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:41:33pm

re: #386 itellu3times

The number is exactly eleventy brazillion.

And they're coming over to your house for a family reunion. I hope you have lots of room on the grill for burgers.

392 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:41:38pm

re: #384 eschew_obfuscation

Doing nothing is the new wrong thing.

393 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:41:45pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

Free! It's free!

394 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:41:47pm
It raises the question of whether John Holdren is the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

Waddaya mean "best person", I think Obambi chose Holdren to give him just the advice he already knows he wants to hear, so in those terms, Holdren is exactly the man for the (hand) job.

395 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:42:21pm

re: #377 Charles

I thought I did in my post. Still, though, in order for these kinds of tactics to have any effect they'd have to be implemented before a massive crisis -- food shortages, famines, etc. -- because once you're in that state it's a little too late to start worrying about sterilizing people.

I would go further, and question the fundamental outlook of someone so willing to reach for such Draconian measures based, not on reality, but the nebulous projections of an obviously overly-simplistic model with little or no basis in reality. It speaks of a predisposition towards ham-fisted solutions, and bent toward doing evil given the slightest excuse.

396 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:42:44pm

re: #380 jaunte

Here's another Holdren story that brings to mind thoughts about hubris and unintended consequences:

Does it sound like he takes the idea of "getting desperate enough" rather lightly?

I'm aware I'm reading things into it, but still ... *hmmmmmm*.

397 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:42:59pm

re: #377 Charles

I thought I did in my post. Still, though, in order for these kinds of tactics to have any effect they'd have to be implemented before a massive crisis -- food shortages, famines, etc. -- because once you're in that state it's a little too late to start worrying about sterilizing people.

Thats usually around the time when you actually need a large and powerful military.

398 Kenneth  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:42:59pm
399 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:43:22pm

re: #391 EmmmieG

soylent green burgers, yum!

400 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:43:37pm

re: #380 jaunte

Here's another Holdren story that brings to mind thoughts about hubris and unintended consequences:

.................."It's got to be looked at," he said. "We don't have the luxury of taking any approach off the table."

In that case, I guess nuclear winter is a viable option. No wonder these guys are so inconsistently soft on Iran's nuclear aspirations. It would really help with population control too.
/

401 jaunte  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:44:03pm

re: #396 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What could go wrong?
/

402 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:44:04pm

Hey has anyone mentioned that today is Nikolai Teslas birthday?

403 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:44:50pm

re: #402 BlueCanuck

Hey has anyone mentioned that today is Nikolai Teslas birthday?

Ah, that explains the lightning and coil on the Google logo today. I was confused and thought it might have something to do with Frankenstein.

404 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:44:50pm

re: #398 Kenneth

A picture worth a thousand words.

The alien is about to burst through in 3, 2, 1,

405 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:44:50pm

Hubris is a six-letter word for cognoscenti with mental diarrhea.

406 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:44:52pm

It's so ironic that Holdren is representative of what is suppose to be a new era of scientific inquiry after years of "oppressive" policies.

407 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:45:17pm

I sent Joe Biden a paint by number kit.
That should keep him quiet for a while.

You're Welcome.

408 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:46:04pm

re: #402 BlueCanuck

Hey has anyone mentioned that today is Nikolai Teslas birthday?

Google noticed.

409 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:46:04pm

re: #355 Alouette

Who calculated the magic number? What is the equation?

I will have to look for the actual paper I read some time ago. Like I said earlier, it does not matter what the actual number is as much as one exists.

The way I would calculate it is pretty straight forward, and honestly, with enough web research, anyone here could approximate it.

Step one. How much food/water does one person need on average to survive? I do not know the numbers exactly, but it is probably something like a liter of water a day and 1500 calories.

Multiply those numbers by the "magic number"

Then that product must be less than the total amount of clean water available and the total amount of food that can be grown. Since we have enormous oceans, and it is possible to desalinate, the water argument gets tricky. You would need to know how much desalinization is possible from economic and environmental factors and how possible it would be to pump the desalinized water to inland places.

So lets look at the food end.

Since energy is conserved, there can be no more calories produced than the amount of solar energy that hits the Earth.

So let's assume that all of the Earth's arable land was used for agriculture. Entropy is a killer of course, you can't get out of the plant's that you grow, or the meat that you eat, the full amount that the sun kicked in. Let's say that you are on order 1% efficient.

So that product must be less than 1% X the area of arable land available X the solar flux over that land converted to calories.

Divide by the number of calories a person needs per day, and you have the magic number.

However you run the numbers, it is in the tens of billions.

410 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:46:47pm

re: #380 jaunte

We could always drop a few nukes into some volcanoes. That might actually work.

411 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:47:38pm

re: #380 jaunte

I wonder if working in the "artificial volcano" shooting pollution into the air is a green-collar job?
This guy would be just another Alex Jones-esque joke if he hadn't been given so much power by Obama.

412 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:47:41pm

re: #402 BlueCanuck

Hey has anyone mentioned that today is Nikolai Teslas birthday?

Are you trying to spark a discussion?
Uncoil thyself!

413 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:47:55pm

re: #406 scottishbuzzsaw

It's so ironic that Holdren is representative of what is suppose to be a new era of scientific inquiry after years of "oppressive" policies.

For years, groups like NOW and the ACLU have been protesting the mere idea a law might prevent them from getting an abortion. I wonder how they stand on the idea of it being forced.

414 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:48:04pm

re: #407 SasquatchOnSteroids

I sent Joe Biden a paint by number kit.
That should keep him quiet for a while.

You're Welcome.

Don't mock paint by numbers. There was a display a couple years ago of paint by numbers done by famous historical people. Including senators, a president, and a few other high muckety mucks. It was considered a worth while hobby back in the day.

415 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:48:07pm

re: #409 LudwigVanQuixote

You missed my point. The number moves.

We have gotten incredibly more efficient at farming. An acre of land produces more now than it did one hundred years ago. I am seeing articles now about drought-resistant plants, and plants that can be used to desalinate land, which would produce more arable land.

The magic number would require a crystal ball to see what we will devise in the future.

416 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:48:29pm

re: #389 Shiplord Kirel

We could get plenty of particulates into the atmosphere just by rolling back certain costly environmental requirements.

Quite true, but then there's acid rain or something else.

417 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:48:33pm

re: #412 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Are you trying to spark a discussion?
Uncoil thyself!

Ohm my!

418 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:48:45pm

re: #402 BlueCanuck

Hey has anyone mentioned that today is Nikolai Teslas birthday?

We all had cake.

419 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:48:59pm

re: #142 J.S.

re: #154 jamgarr

re: #320 Oh no...Sand People!

Here's what Bill Ayers and his lovely wife had in mind:

Larry Grathwohl on Ayers' plan for American re-education camps and the need to kill 25 million people.

420 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:49:02pm

re: #412 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Hmmmm, look at that. Almost time for the weekend. I think I will transistor out the door and on my way ohm.

421 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:49:04pm

Like I said in my comment to Zombie last night. He might be trying to backpedal from this now, but the fact that man ever thought this way should disqualify him from the position he's in. He jumps to worst case scenario conclusions way too quickly and does not look outside the box for solutions. He only looks in the old tried and true totalitarian box, and pulls out the same tolls tyrants have used or sought to use throughout history.

He should be pouring Venti Chais at the Starbucks in DC, not advising the President on science policy.

422 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:49:11pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

I had great luck with English socialized medicine, personally.

423 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:49:13pm

re: #417 LGoPs

Ohm my!

LOL!
UP-ding!

424 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:49:15pm

My oh my, TOTUS sure loves himself some crazy ass advisors.

/let's paint all the roofs and roads white and shoot dirt into the atmosphere

425 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:50:09pm

re: #215 Oh no...Sand People!

I think this (among a lot of your other hard work) should be your Dan Rather 'forged' memo moment...

I don't know about that. I still think the administration will do its best to just ignore me. All I'm trying to do is make however many voters I can reach wake up to the reality of this administration's extremism.

426 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:50:22pm

re: #424 Killian Bundy

My oh my, TOTUS sure loves himself some crazy ass advisors.

/let's paint all the roofs and roads white and shoot dirt into the atmosphere

/after we invade Israel

427 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:50:30pm

re: #420 BlueCanuck

Hmmmm, look at that. Almost time for the weekend. I think I will transistor out the door and on my way ohm.

But who'll keep the thread current?

428 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:50:50pm

re: #414 BlueCanuck

Don't mock paint by numbers. There was a display a couple years ago of paint by numbers done by famous historical people. Including senators, a president, and a few other high muckety mucks. It was considered a worth while hobby back in the day.

You thought I was mocking paint by numbers ?
heh.

429 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:50:52pm

re: #427 pre-Boomer Marine brat

But who'll keep the thread current?

We'll alternate.

430 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:51:04pm

OT: I have not had a chance to read this, but it should be interesting:

Unclassified report on the warrantless surveillance program.

431 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:51:11pm

re: #359 Honorary Yooper

It's rotting on the Senate floor right now. Apparently some of the Democratic Senators are balking at it. Last I saw, they're going to wait until September to vote on it. ram it through in the middle of the night without reading it.

FIFY

432 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:51:21pm

re: #409 LudwigVanQuixote

Also, you would need to divide by time so that you could calculate energy production per day.

433 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:51:45pm

re: #376 eschew_obfuscation

Oh really? I wonder how they got the doctors and hospital staff to work for free? That's pretty cool!

And....what do you consider to be wrong with our current health care system?

I myself am somewhat concerned that if my 61-year-old mother loses her job, neither she nor my father, a small businessman, may have health insurance until they're ready for Medicare.

434 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:52:07pm

allo

435 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:52:21pm

re: #415 EmmmieG

You missed my point. The number moves.

We have gotten incredibly more efficient at farming. An acre of land produces more now than it did one hundred years ago. I am seeing articles now about drought-resistant plants, and plants that can be used to desalinate land, which would produce more arable land.

The magic number would require a crystal ball to see what we will devise in the future.

You missed my point. Energy is conserved. There is an absolute outer limit that all of the technology in the world can not surpass.

436 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:52:23pm

re: #428 SasquatchOnSteroids

You thought I was mocking paint by numbers ?
heh.

Yes I did. :) Besides something like that would be beyond the capabilities of Biden.

437 Tamron  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:52:34pm

re: #173 buzzsawmonkey

Nah, keep it. I have a spare.

Geez! Where do you keep it?
.

438 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:52:44pm

re: #429 doppelganglander

We'll alternate.

On Tesla's birthday, we ought to be direct!

439 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:52:52pm

re: #426 Killian Bundy

/after we invade Israel

but not until we go to a Tea Party

440 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:53:08pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

Killgore - I would be very distressed with "forced sterilization" and "forced abortions" even in the event of a "disaster" scenario. I suspect some others here would be just as distressed.

And who would be defining the "disaster"?

And who would be selecting those would undergo the "forced sterilization"? What criteria would they use to select those people?

441 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:53:12pm

re: #437 Tamron

Geez! Where do you keep it?
.

At home, on his desk, in a jar. Right next to his heart.

442 nyc redneck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:53:18pm

re: #240 LudwigVanQuixote

I think you are getting rather paranoid. First off, the reason that population declined in Europe and America was well covered above. It is no more or less than the economic empowerment of women. Nations that do not do such things still have six or more babies per woman.

As to national health care, I really do not understand why this generates the outrage that it does. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should go to socialized medicine per se, but do you really think that the HMO that acts like it is bleeding when it tells doctors they can't treat you the way the doctors think is best for you, is somehow a better or more humane system than a government system?

Does the HMO's bottom line, and their freedom to profit as much as possible from your ailment, outweigh your desire to have the best possible medical treatment? The reality of the numbers is that medicine costs so much because of all the hands in the trough. This goes from the malpractice attorneys to the insurance people down through the hospitals who charge thirty bucks for an aspirin. Of course, the hospitals are overwhelmed by people who use the ER as a primary care facility because they can not get insurance.

It is not clear to me that a fully socialized system would be better, but it is equally not clear to me, that given the flaws of the current system, it would be the end of the Republic either.

The reality is that even in socialized medical systems, rich people still go to private hospitals. The reality is that pharmaceutical research will always have a market, so Pfizer can cry all it wants about profit shares. They will be fine. Further, huge amounts of pure research is done by NIH, government grants anyway already.

Science is it's own thing. The normal rules of capitalism are a little different for it, because scientific research is a risky investment. NO particular line of research can be guaranteed to bear fruit for an investor. This is why the government funds the enterprise as a whole. This is not a bad thing either.

your original post was a hypothetical abt. how to handle over population in times of famine. my answer was plain. nothing paranoid abt. it. i'm not comfortable w/ those in power deciding who must suffer w/ in our own country. that burden will not be evenly distributed. are you willing to be "humane" and have your grandparents put down so someone else can eat. or your parents. or your children. or yourself. people who promote these ideas always have someone else in mind who has to give up their rights and liberty.
if the whole world is plunged into massive failure because of some catastrophe my first thoughts are not abt. who to get rid of but rather how to save people. especially my fellow citizens.
in some way what you are talking abt is also like going back 150 yrs. there were countless hardships that families faced. it's called life (and death.) people made their own decisions and survived.
and abt. gov't run health care. that will be abt. cutting costs and saving money and keeping gov't a float. patients will get lost in the shuffle. as usual w/ bureaucracies.

443 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:53:35pm

re: #422 SanFranciscoZionist

I had great luck with English socialized medicine, personally.

My wife had the opposite experience. Her only recourse was paying for private care - which she was fortunate enough to be able to afford. The NHS was prepared to provide nothing but palliative care for her mother who had cancer - basically wrote her off. Private care prolonged her life for years. My wife fled England not long after.

444 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:53:38pm

re: #417 LGoPs

Ohm my!

You deserve lots of riches for that. Here, have some joules.

445 Spenser (with an S)  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:54:02pm

re: #417 LGoPs

re: #412 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Are you trying to spark a discussion?
Uncoil thyself!

Ohm my!

Watt are you two doing to this thread?

446 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:54:31pm

re: #445 Spenser (with an S)

Watt are you two doing to this thread?

Amping it up to be sure.

447 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:54:32pm

re: #445 Spenser (with an S)

Watt are you two doing to this thread?

Trying to amp it up, of course.

448 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:54:37pm

re: #440 reine.de.tout

What criteria would they use to select those people?


"Red States first" is my guess.

449 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:54:47pm

re: #445 Spenser (with an S)

Watt are you two doing to this thread?

Amping it up?

450 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:54:49pm

re: #435 LudwigVanQuixote

You missed my point. Energy is conserved. There is an absolute outer limit that all of the technology in the world can not surpass.

Are we even close to using all the solar energy we receive?

451 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:54:52pm

re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist
re: #376 eschew_obfuscation

Oh really? I wonder how they got the doctors and hospital staff to work for free? That's pretty cool!

And....what do you consider to be wrong with our current health care system?

I myself am somewhat concerned that if my 61-year-old mother loses her job, neither she nor my father, a small businessman, may have health insurance until they're ready for Medicare.

I always find it interesting how health care and health insurance seem confused. They are not the same thing. Hell, I am 60 and self employed. There are worse things than not having insurance. Plus, around here the Mexicans just show up at the ER and get treated for free. I'll just buy a sombrero.

452 LionofDixon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:06pm

Funny....these doomsday scenarios put forth by liberals, academics and other people who certainly know better than the rest of us, never require sacrafice on the propounder. Al Gore preaches global warming, but flies private jets, has a huge houseboat and has a gigantic electric bill. Those that suggest sterilization and abortion have either had their kids and plan no more, are abortion advocates, or are so ugly and smelly they would never mate anyway.

453 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:07pm

£6m drive to cut teen pregnancies sees them DOUBLE

A multi-million pound initiative to reduce teenage pregnancies more than doubled the number of girls conceiving.

The Government-backed scheme tried to persuade teenage girls not to get pregnant by handing out condoms and teaching them about sex.

But research funded by the Department of Health shows that young women who attended the programme, at a cost of £2,500 each, were 'significantly' more likely to become pregnant than those on other youth programmes who were not given contraception and sex advice.

I blame homework.

And George W. Bush, of course.

454 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:09pm

re: #446 Creeping Eruption

Amping it up to be sure.

1 second to slow! /bow

455 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:12pm

re: #370 EmmmieG

"There will be technological breakthroughs."

This has been a fascinating thread and your mention of technology is the first that I've noticed. I have little doubt there will be breakthroughs in molecular nanotechnology (certainly within my boys lifetime) that would allow earth to support more people than you can possibly imagine, and do so in an entirely self sustaining and environmentally friendly way. The down side - the technology could also be used to destroy the entire earth.

456 latingent  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:21pm

re: #445 Spenser (with an S)

Watt are you two doing to this thread?

Some folks are`nt well grounded.

457 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:26pm

re: #377 Charles

It is a little like writing a survival manual: "If you're wagon party gets stuck in a snowstorm you can eat the people who die of hypothermia." It isn't really advocating cannibalism as a lifestyle choice.
However, I will agree that this is very sloppy science for what was intended to be a serious academic work. The fact that his predictions were completely wrong doesn't help his extreme solutions look any better.

458 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:30pm

re: #446 Creeping Eruption

re: #447 MrSilverDragon
One second...well done.

459 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:31pm

re: #442 nyc redneck

. . . i'm not comfortable w/ those in power deciding who must suffer w/ in our own country. that burden will not be evenly distributed. are you willing to be "humane" and have your grandparents put down so someone else can eat. or your parents. or your children. or yourself. people who promote these ideas always have someone else in mind who has to give up their rights and liberty.
if the whole world is plunged into massive failure because of some catastrophe my first thoughts are not abt. who to get rid of but rather how to save people. especially my fellow citizens. . . .

and abt. gov't run health care. that will be abt. cutting costs and saving money and keeping gov't a float. patients will get lost in the shuffle. as usual w/ bureaucracies.

Perfectly stated.

460 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:55:58pm

re: #450 EmmmieG

Are we even close to using all the solar energy we receive?

The ocean waves keep on a'coming.

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:56:04pm

re: #451 kansas

re: #376 eschew_obfuscation

Oh really? I wonder how they got the doctors and hospital staff to work for free? That's pretty cool!

And....what do you consider to be wrong with our current health care system?


I always find it interesting how health care and health insurance seem confused. They are not the same thing. Hell, I am 60 and self employed. There are worse things than not having insurance. Plus, around here the Mexicans just show up at the ER and get treated for free. I'll just buy a sombrero.

OK, I'll send my dad to the ER in a sombrero, and they can treat his cancer and diabetes. Now I feel much less frightened.

462 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:56:31pm

re: #456 latingent

Some folks are`nt well grounded.

You can see the resistance. Their capacitance is small.

463 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:56:40pm

re: #453 razorbacker

£6m drive to cut teen pregnancies sees them DOUBLE


I blame homework.

And George W. Bush, of course.

And global warming.

And joos

464 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:56:47pm

re: #458 scottishbuzzsaw

yes, very nice indeed. connected brain caps?

465 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:56:57pm

The Apocalypse makes for great fiction there's just too many people in this world trying to make it a fact.

466 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:56:58pm

re: #456 latingent

Some folks are`nt well grounded.

Gettin' earthy, aren't you?

467 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:57:08pm

Gotta volt - see y'all later

468 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:57:20pm

re: #377 Charles

I thought I did in my post. Still, though, in order for these kinds of tactics to have any effect they'd have to be implemented before a massive crisis -- food shortages, famines, etc. -- because once you're in that state it's a little too late to start worrying about sterilizing people.

The whole point is that Holdren thinks (or thought as of 1977) that we already were in the level of crisis which necessitated these measures. As I wrote:

Holdren:

"Indeed, it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society. Few today consider the situation in the United States serious enough to justify compulsion, however."

zombie:

"Let it be noted that John Holdren himself is among the few who "consider the situation in the United States serious enough to justify compulsion" -- in fact, that's the entire thrust of Ecoscience, to convince everyone that overpopulation is a catastrophic crisis which requires immediate and extreme solutions. So although the final sentence of the extended passage seems at first to mollify the extreme nature of his speculation, in reality Holdren is only speaking of all the unaware masses who don't see things his way."

469 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:57:38pm

What happens when we're living in space? Instead of mass abortions and euthanasia, we'll be sending up ships of people to farm the Empire's space colonies. That blows up the notion of overpopulation.

470 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:57:51pm

re: #445 Spenser (with an S)

Watt are you two doing to this thread?

trying to keep it from dyne

471 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:57:52pm

re: #462 MrSilverDragon

You can see the resistance. Their capacitance is small.

I hear Prince Charles paid off Teslas' family a few years ago.
Apparently, Diode them money.

472 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:58:27pm

re: #457 Killgore Trout

It is a little like writing a survival manual: "If you're wagon party gets stuck in a snowstorm you can eat the people who die of hypothermia." It isn't really advocating cannibalism as a lifestyle choice.
However, I will agree that this is very sloppy science for what was intended to be a serious academic work. The fact that his predictions were completely wrong doesn't help his extreme solutions look any better.

Can we kill people who seem likely to die of hypothermia if we get a bit peckish during the trip? Maybe kill them in September and make sure the larder is full before the snows set in?

473 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:58:32pm

re: #457 Killgore Trout

It is a little like writing a survival manual: "If you're wagon party gets stuck in a snowstorm you can eat the people who die of hypothermia." It isn't really advocating cannibalism as a lifestyle choice.
However, I will agree that this is very sloppy science for what was intended to be a serious academic work. The fact that his predictions were completely wrong doesn't help his extreme solutions look any better.

Eating the people who DIE NATURALLY for survival is far differernt than advocating eugenics for survival

Does EVERYONE get sterilized? If not, who gets sterilized? Is it by age? Wealth? Ethnicity? Race?
And who makes THOSE decisions?

474 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:58:33pm

re: #415 EmmmieG

You missed my point. The number moves.

We have gotten incredibly more efficient at farming. An acre of land produces more now than it did one hundred years ago. I am seeing articles now about drought-resistant plants, and plants that can be used to desalinate land, which would produce more arable land.

The magic number would require a crystal ball to see what we will devise in the future.

Well, he's correct in the sense that Scotty on Star Trek was correct: Ye canna' change the laws of physics. There's a finite amount of energy available through sunlight falling on the earth, and a finite amount of energy required to exist as an organism. So there are limits. Even if you add other sources of energy - as we do now, by turning petroleum into fertilizer and pesticides - there's still a finite amount of people that the planet and it's resources are capable of sustaining.

What's wrong with this argument is that the number is vastly larger than anything the earth's population is going to ever come close to, according to real-world data. World population is already leveling off, and will peak around mid-century. It will decline after than, and even at it's peak - projected at roughly 10 billion - it will be well below the level of maximal sustainability.

475 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:59:15pm

re: #442 nyc redneck

your original post was a hypothetical abt. how to handle over population in times of famine. my answer was plain. nothing paranoid abt. it. i'm not comfortable w/ those in power deciding who must suffer w/ in our own country. that burden will not be evenly distributed. are you willing to be "humane" and have your grandparents put down so someone else can eat. or your parents. or your children. or yourself. people who promote these ideas always have someone else in mind who has to give up their rights and liberty.


And here I thought the answer was giving women more liberty through increased options.... And of course no - one, even in that paper was suggesting putting old people "down."

I asked a thought question. Zombie actually answered it. In the nightmare scenario of over population, where we would actually be approaching the magic number, She believes that letting it get solved by war and famine is the better choice. I personally think that limiting population growth through birth control is better.

However, any discussion of this would be before the number was reached.
As Charles pointed out, once it gets there, it is already too late.


I did not say we were there. I did not say we are close.

476 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:59:23pm

re: #380 jaunte

Oh great, he wants to run a huge experiment tinkering with the earth's climate too. This guy is a bad example of a science adviser.

477 Spenser (with an S)  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:59:26pm

re: #456 latingent

re: #445 Spenser (with an S)

Watt are you two doing to this thread?

Some folks are`nt well grounded.

Well, let's complete the circuit on this line of thought and stay with the current topic.

478 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:59:33pm

re: #471 SasquatchOnSteroids

I hear Prince Charles paid off Teslas' family a few years ago.
Apparently, Diode them money.

Not surprising. Ya know, I need to go on a vacation very soon... perhaps South America. I should go to Rheostat!

479 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:59:56pm

I have little doubt that we will eventually overpopulate the planet. A quick spreading infectious disease will correct the problem for us. I doubt we'll get the the point of recourse shortages before that happens.

480 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:00:24pm

re: #471 SasquatchOnSteroids

I hear Prince Charles paid off Teslas' family a few years ago.
Apparently, Diode them money.

Payment made on impulse I assume.

481 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:01:15pm

re: #472 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Only if you get permission in writing from them first.

482 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:01:45pm

re: #228 Oh no...Sand People!

I just submitted you to the Drudge Report...who knows what could happen.

Don't get your hopes up.

I've only ever been on Drudge twice. He is extremely hard to crack.

483 JustABill  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:01:51pm

re: #453 razorbacker

£6m drive to cut teen pregnancies sees them DOUBLE


I blame homework.

And George W. Bush, of course.

I don't know, after seeing the current prez looking at that 16yo girl, you might have the wrong prez.
//

484 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:01:55pm

re: #479 Killgore Trout

I have little doubt that we will eventually overpopulate the planet. A quick spreading infectious disease will correct the problem for us. I doubt we'll get the the point of recourse shortages before that happens.

We can always resort to clubbing each other over the heads with rocks.

BREAKING NEWS: White House passing new legislation restricting rock ownership

485 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:02:20pm

re: #480 Creeping Eruption

Shocking.

486 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:02:24pm

re: #477 Spenser (with an S)

Well, let's complete the circuit on this line of thought and stay with the current topic.

Well put.
We must not let someone buck the hole flow of the thread.

/gonna find out if anyone here knows semiconductor theory

487 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:02:31pm

re: #479 Killgore Trout

I have little doubt that we will eventually overpopulate the planet. A quick spreading infectious disease will correct the problem for us. I doubt we'll get the the point of recourse shortages before that happens.

Not going to happen imo

488 nyc redneck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:02:41pm

re: #309 LudwigVanQuixote

Easy now, I am not advocating population police. I am saying the simple fact that if the world has more people on it than it can feed, bad things would happen.

This is not something you can easily dispute.

Charles has a good point. If Holden really was advocating things in the 70's when the issue was clearly not looming - nor is it today, it says something about his ability to soberly look at data.

However, if, God forbid, that ever did become a reality, the choices are population reduction by warfare, starvation and disease vs. population reduction by limiting births. Either way, the population would get reduced.

As I have said a dozen times, the way to avoid that sort of future is by having more and more career minded women who have fewer children.

that's why the pop in the u.s. is barely holding on. too many baby boomer women w/ only careers on their mind. bad move. many regret it. we do not have an over pop. problem here. and as i said, neither does europe. they are seriously on the decline. also japan. it is heartbreaking that granny age japanese women buy these toddler dolls that talk. and they treat them like grandchildren because they have none.
for your plan to combat starvation w/out war, you need to go to the middle east and other moslem countries and shut down the birth rates there.
it is suicide for the western world to continue to decline in population as the moslem nations grow.
you are not going to stop war by lowering your population.

489 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:02:48pm

re: #450 EmmmieG

Are we even close to using all the solar energy we receive?

No, not at all. I never said that we were - and I never said that we need to be taking such measures today. I did say however, that if we were approaching that point, it is not unreasonable to suggest that avoiding it would be a good thing.

Now I have not read the book in it's entirety. I do not know if Holden et al were actually suggesting enacting such legislation in the Seventies. If they were really doing that, they were completely wrong. However, saying that this could, potentially be an issue, when the fact is that people really do need to eat and the food really does need to come from somewhere is not crazy.

490 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:03:11pm

ACORN Girls for Socialized Medicine

Deeeeep thinkers.

I'm in over my head, anyways.

491 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:03:16pm

re: #484 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They can have my rock when they pry it from my cold dead hand.

492 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:03:23pm

re: #473 sattv4u2

Eating the people who DIE NATURALLY for survival is far differernt than advocating eugenics for survival

Does EVERYONE get sterilized? If not, who gets sterilized? Is it by age? Wealth? Ethnicity? Race?
And who makes THOSE decisions?

First they will come for those who don't use their spellcheckers.

493 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:03:29pm

re: #482 zombie

Don't get your hopes up.

I've only ever been on Drudge twice. He is extremely hard to crack.

I didn't know you made it on Drudge zomb, what were the articles about?

494 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:03:35pm

re: #484 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Rock ownership to be restricted to "rock stars" like Springstein that support these moonbats?

495 Kenneth  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:04:04pm

re: #484 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We can always resort to clubbing each other over the heads with rocks.

BREAKING NEWS: White House passing new legislation restricting rock ownership

Don't worry, it applies only to fully automatic assault rocks. You will still be allowed to keep small caliber rocks for hunting.

496 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:04:05pm

re: #492 debutaunt

First they will come for those who don't use their spellcheckers.

I'll be at the head of the LION

497 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:04:26pm

re: #492 debutaunt

First they will come for those who don't use their spellcheckers.

Dang, I'm scerwed...

/see?

498 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:04:41pm

re: #487 turn

What makes you think that? Human population has continued to increase for our entire history. It's bound to happen eventually. I don't think there's much doubt about that.

499 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:04:47pm

re: #485 Shr_Nfr

Shocking.

ohm, what are you guys punning about?

500 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:04:49pm

re: #491 Killgore Trout

They can have my rock when they pry it from my cold dead hand.

I can see how feeding yourself is a mammoth undertaking.

501 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:16pm

re: #241 jaunte

Holdren causing a few legtingles at openleft:

Hooray for Holdren!

Oh, he is an absolute God to the academic left.

You can't believe the list of professional awards, grants, fellowships, appointments and professorships he's had. Truly mind-boggling. He is the creme-de-la-creme of radical scientists. They worship him.

502 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:17pm

re: #481 Killgore Trout

Only if you get permission in writing from them first.

What about if we kill them in their sleep and simply tell everyone they nobly gave their own life for the good of the rest of us? They're heroes and we're fed. Everyone wins.

503 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:23pm

It was amazing, I was driving my wife to the airport and there was this moonbat on the local pbs radio mumbling about the "private sector monopoly" on something. Good grief.

504 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:27pm

re: #498 Killgore Trout

455

505 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:28pm

re: #484 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wait 'til 2012 when we're all accused of "clinging to our rocks and our carbon, with antipathy toward others..."

506 nyc redneck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:28pm

re: #459 reine.de.tout

{reine} :D

507 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:37pm

re: #228 Oh no...Sand People!

I just submitted you to the Drudge Report...who knows what could happen.

I did, too. You'd think he'd jump on this. But I thought that about other stories.

508 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:40pm

re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist

I myself am somewhat concerned that if my 61-year-old mother loses her job, neither she nor my father, a small businessman, may have health insurance until they're ready for Medicare.

I agree that there is some group of people who want, do not have, and cannot get health insurance and are at risk of major health care expense. That group's needs should be addressed in some way, but that is a small group relative to the population.

The Obama health care plan would be a tiny fraction of its current size were that what it was addressing.

509 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:50pm

re: #496 sattv4u2

I get your mane point.

510 JCM  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:05:55pm

re: #499 turn

ohm, what are you guys punning about?

Watt puns?

511 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:06:04pm

re: #473 sattv4u2

Eating the people who DIE NATURALLY for survival is far different than advocating eugenics for survival

Does EVERYONE get sterilized? If not, who gets sterilized? Is it by age? Wealth? Ethnicity? Race?
And who makes THOSE decisions?

Anyone bold enough to step forward and declare to be the one to decide the fates of generations will be the first one to find his or her head on a pike.

512 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:06:15pm

re: #495 Kenneth

Don't worry, it applies only to fully automatic assault rocks. You will still be allowed to keep small caliber rocks for hunting.

I got me a bag of gravel put aside.

513 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:06:51pm

re: #489 LudwigVanQuixote

No, not at all. I never said that we were - and I never said that we need to be taking such measures today. I did say however, that if we were approaching that point, it is not unreasonable to suggest that avoiding it would be a good thing.

Now I have not read the book in it's entirety. I do not know if Holden et al were actually suggesting enacting such legislation in the Seventies. If they were really doing that, they were completely wrong. However, saying that this could, potentially be an issue, when the fact is that people really do need to eat and the food really does need to come from somewhere is not crazy.

Yes, but the idea that we can predict right now what will happen fifty years from now is crazy. And forced abortion would be not crazy, but evil.

514 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:07:13pm

re: #503 Shr_Nfr

It was amazing, I was driving my wife to the airport and there was this moonbat on the local pbs radio mumbling about the "private sector monopoly" on something. Good grief.

(gee, I glad I'd just set down my coffee cup)

515 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:07:14pm

re: #502 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What about if we kill them in their sleep and simply tell everyone they nobly gave their own life for the good of the rest of us? They're heroes and we're fed. Everyone wins.

Something to consider.

Chitterlings from lefties.

You couldn't sling 'em against the stump hard enough to clean out all that crap.

516 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:07:23pm

Agreed that the earth's resources are finite. The only thing that seems to defy this law is the amount of money that Obama is willing to spend on the economy his special interests.

517 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:07:24pm

re: #498 Killgore Trout

What makes you think that? Human population has continued to increase for our entire history. It's bound to happen eventually. I don't think there's much doubt about that.

Technology will allow us to have a much larger population than you can possibly imagine. Plus I believe for all the reasons stated in this thread that it will level off and quite possible decline in the mean time.

518 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:07:28pm

re: #499 turn

Leapng leptons, can't you figure it out?

519 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:07:49pm

re: #510 JCM

That one is a real joule.

520 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:08:10pm

re: #465 Idle Drifter

The Apocalypse makes for great fiction there's just too many people in this world trying to make it a fact.

Stand on Zanzibar and The Sheep Look Up are both excellent books, if terrible downers. The scenarios they are based on are anything but rational, though.

521 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:08:10pm

re: #515 razorbacker

Something to consider.

Chitterlings from lefties.

You couldn't sling 'em against the stump hard enough to clean out all that crap.

Mmmmm, gamey buttocks

522 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:08:35pm

re: #377 Charles

I thought I did in my post. Still, though, in order for these kinds of tactics to have any effect they'd have to be implemented before a massive crisis -- food shortages, famines, etc. -- because once you're in that state it's a little too late to start worrying about sterilizing people.

If you're in that state, nature will sort of take care of the problems for you.

523 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:08:35pm

re: #503 Shr_Nfr

omg, sheesh

524 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:08:36pm

re: #511 Idle Drifter

Anyone bold enough to step forward and declare to be the one to decide the fates of generations will be the first one to find his or her head on a pike.

The mental image of a fish swimming around with a man's head just popped into my mind, and then I flashed to Monty Python. I guess I can punch another two holes on my nerd card.

525 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:08:40pm

re: #443 LGoPs

My wife had the opposite experience. Her only recourse was paying for private care - which she was fortunate enough to be able to afford. The NHS was prepared to provide nothing but palliative care for her mother who had cancer - basically wrote her off. Private care prolonged her life for years. My wife fled England not long after.

This is typical of European health care systems. The "free" care so loudly touted is minimal; pretty much everyone pays for "gap" policies aimed at providing coverage for the quite expensive additional care not covered, or not fully covered, by the base program. Similar to the "Medigap" policies available here that cover the rather large chunks of care not covered by Medicare.

Even the minimal care provided by such systems get more and more minimal as time goes on and costs increase. Coverage is increasingly rationed, with more and more procedures covered only partially, or not covered at all, in order to contain costs that cannot be met without further raising already astronomical taxes.

526 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:08:48pm

re: #510 JCM

Watt puns?

UH OH!
JCM's here!
(This Bode's a plot!)

527 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:09:06pm

re: #475 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #479 Killgore Trout

Overpopulation: Resurgent Myth

I think it is going to take a lot longer to overpopulate than people think. The world and people have a funny knack of figuring it out. I agree Kilgore, I think it will happen eventually. Of course, we will have a Jedi Council by then. :)

A good thing about massive infectious diseases (such as the plague...okay, not really a good thing, but something good that came out of it) is that once an infectious disease goes through a population, it reduces the strain on resources and can bring about a golden age of production following the strains run. Some people think part of the success of the renaissance was the fact that the plaque reduced the number of people straining resources.

528 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:09:09pm

re: #502 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ok, but I'm keeping an eye out for you around nap time.

529 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:09:37pm

re: #484 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We can always resort to clubbing each other over the heads with rocks.

BREAKING NEWS: White House passing new legislation restricting rock ownership

They'll have to have a special dispensation for Barbara "Address me as Senator" Boxer. Her head is full of them.

530 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:09:41pm

re: #511 Idle Drifter

Anyone bold enough to step forward and declare to be the one to decide the fates of generations will be the first one to find his or her head on a pike.

Pikes are so hard to come by nowadays.

531 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:09:47pm

re: #520 Dianna

Stand on Zanzibar and The Sheep Look Up are both excellent books, if terrible downers. The scenarios they are based on are anything but rational, though.

I'll have to add these to my reading list.

532 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:09:48pm

re: #278 Charles

What I find most disturbing about this is Holdren's apparent readiness to buy into apocalyptic scenarios, and to jump from that right into recommending totalitarian measures -- and 32 years later, he was very clearly wrong in his alarmism.

Raises the question of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

Bing-a-ment-o!

That's my exact point. Well put.

533 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:09:48pm

re: #468 zombie

He used passive voice and weasel words in that a lot to try to distance himself from what he was saying. Leads me to believe he knows that he was advocating something vile.

534 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:10:01pm

re: #503 Shr_Nfr

It is public radio. Losing too much listenership to Clear Channel, I guess.

535 Kragar  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:10:43pm

re: #528 Killgore Trout

Ok, but I'm keeping an eye out for you around nap time.

No problem, I've got apple juice and graham crackers and a rubber mat waiting for you.

536 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:10:44pm

re: #491 Killgore Trout

they can have my rock when they pick it up from the ground. it should be at their feet with a little blood on it...from their heads

537 JCM  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:10:47pm

re: #526 pre-Boomer Marine brat

UH OH!
JCM's here!
(This Bode's a plot!)

Siemens so!

538 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:10:59pm

re: #517 turn

Actually, technology allows us to have a lower population. As people are more easily able to take care of themselves, they understand that they no longer have to create 10 kids to have enough to survive. Aside from the various religious fanatics, technologically advanced civilizations settle down to around replacement rate or even under it. (e.g. Japan). There are more fun things to do than change diapers.

539 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:11:22pm

re: #281 SixDegrees

Not so much. What is happening in reality is that the population is leveling off; the more civilizations advance, the more their birthrate drops. Current projections indicate that world population growth has slowed dramatically as a larger and larger portion of the population gets educated and moves beyond subsistence agriculture as their predominant way of life; large families become less necessary, and resources are focused on getting fewer and fewer offspring through more and more educational institutions required to enable them to compete in a technologically advanced society. Projections by the UN predict that world population will peak by 2050 at around 10 billion and then decline thereafter as the remaining impoverished regions of the world move from third world to second or first world status.

Another, less rosy component of population stabilization and eventual decline is the emergence of diseases like AIDs. Without significant advances in medicine (which are entirely unpredictable) current trends in Africa suggest that the population of the entire continent will begin to collapse within a couple of decades, and rapidly decline thereafter, decimated by the spread of AIDs and the dearth of medical care and infrastructure there.

But even without the four horsemen running rampant, it seems inevitable that human birthrates and population will peak and and begin to decline in the near future, a reality that is absent from Malthusian outlooks such as the one outlined above.

I quote you just so everyone reads your excellent comment again.

540 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:11:26pm

Ginsburg, Roe and Population Control

In 1973, one year after her tenure at Columbia began, the Supreme Court ruled on Roe v. Wade, the landmark decision that legalized abortion. And Ginsburg had this to say about her feelings "at the time":

"Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don't want to have too many of."

/I see a pattern developing

541 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:11:32pm

re: #518 Shr_Nfr

Leapng leptons, can't you figure it out?

Yeah I got it figured out now, if it quarks like a duck it probably is a duck.

542 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:11:35pm

re: #535 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No problem, I've got apple juice and graham crackers and a rubber mat waiting for you.

Obamacare!

543 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:11:35pm

re: #479 Killgore Trout

I have little doubt that we will eventually overpopulate the planet. A quick spreading infectious disease will correct the problem for us. I doubt we'll get the the point of recourse shortages before that happens.

Disease may very well be a problem, but overpopulation doesn't appear to be, as noted several times above. Susceptibility to disease doesn't require overpopulation, although population density can favor the spread of some diseases.

544 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:11:43pm

re: #510 JCM

Watt puns?

I think we've had enough puns Faraday.

545 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:12:23pm

re: #511 Idle Drifter

Anyone bold enough to step forward and declare to be the one to decide the fates of generations will be the first one to find his or her head on a pike.

What does a fish have to do with this?

546 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:12:36pm

re: #537 JCM

Siemens so!

RATS! Can't come up with a come-back to that.
Seems I'm a one-shot today.

547 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:12:40pm

re: #538 Shr_Nfr

Actually, technology allows us to have a lower population. As people are more easily able to take care of themselves, they understand that they no longer have to create 10 kids to have enough to survive. Aside from the various religious fanatics, technologically advanced civilizations settle down to around replacement rate or even under it. (e.g. Japan). There are more fun things to do than change diapers.

They can see a future for themselves and their children.

548 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:12:41pm

re: #526 pre-Boomer Marine brat

So you want control huh? Running it up the pole. Well I give it a big zero in plane sight.

549 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:12:45pm

Relax folks. Who is going to buy into "apocalyptic scenarios". Certainly not Obama. /

550 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:12:47pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW, speaking of the future, one of my students believe that "Europe" is a pronoun, according to this test I am correcting.

It is a pronoun, you rope you!

551 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:12:55pm

CNN is reporting that President Obama delivered a letter from Senator Kennedy to the Pope. That just doesn't sit right.

552 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:13:13pm

re: #530 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Pikes are so hard to come by nowadays.

Then it'll be a sharpened broom handle. How hard is it to come up with a 20 ft.long pole tipped with spike?

553 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:13:24pm

re: #491 Killgore Trout

They can have my rock when they pry it from my cold dead hand.

Sweetie, don't tempt people!

554 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:13:53pm

re: #541 turn

Glad to see you on top of things.

555 JacksonTn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:14:16pm

Where is Reine! ... get over here girl ... I cannot figure out this dang iPhone ... where do I get that LGF thing to put on the iPhone? ... and how do you set the touch on the keyboard ... my head is swirling ...

556 JCM  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:14:16pm

re: #544 Pianobuff

I think we've had enough puns Faraday.

We'll continue Weber or not you participate.

557 Syrah  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:14:29pm

re: #545 sattv4u2

What does a fish have to do with this?

Its about what they do in the water.

I recommend giving up on the water and only drink Tequila from this point forward.
/

558 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:15:13pm

re: #551 haakondahl

Considering the Confession Ted Kennedy has to make, he's probably smart to go right to the top.

559 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:15:15pm

re: #556 JCM

Yep I Gauss you will.

560 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:15:23pm

re: #556 JCM

We'll continue Weber or not you participate.

Ouch...that Hertz.

561 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:15:26pm

re: #333 Dianna

I distrust your usage, not because I view any insurance company with great favor, but because there's very little you can't eventually extract from a private entity. Government rationing will most certainly not be humane. re: #300 taxfreekiller

Did you fall over laughing?

Is government rationing worse than the HMO's rationing?

562 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:15:29pm

re: #318 Killgore Trout

I didn't see a link to the complete text in Zombie's report. You can read the book online for free....
Ecoscience: Population, Resources, Environment

Wow! I looked for that, and even tried to access that very page when writing the report, but for some reason it didn't work for me. However, I will now add that to the report, and you have earned yourself a hat tip for excellent digging!

563 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:15:39pm

re: #555 JacksonTn

is there an LGF iPhone app?

564 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:15:52pm

re: #517 turn

Technology will allow us to have a much larger population than you can possibly imagine. Plus I believe for all the reasons stated in this thread that it will level off and quite possible decline in the mean time.

Kids are expensive. Don't need as many anymore to work on the farm, take care of us when we get older, etc.

They also say the damnedest things, at the damnedest times.

565 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:16:17pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I'll send my dad to the ER in a sombrero, and they can treat his cancer and diabetes. Now I feel much less frightened.

Sorry your Dad has both of those things. My Dad had both of those too, pancreatic cancer for which his pancreas was removed giving him diabetes. Had colon cancer too.

566 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:16:35pm

re: #538 Shr_Nfr

Actually, technology allows us to have a lower population. As people are more easily able to take care of themselves, they understand that they no longer have to create 10 kids to have enough to survive. Aside from the various religious fanatics, technologically advanced civilizations settle down to around replacement rate or even under it. (e.g. Japan). There are more fun things to do than change diapers.

Yes I agree, that is what I alluded to in 517. Just wanted to point out that those who fear of overpopulation aren't taking into consideration the advances in technology by (and if) we get to that point.

567 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:16:43pm

re: #527 mrshankly01

re: #479 Killgore Trout

Overpopulation: Resurgent Myth

I think it is going to take a lot longer to overpopulate than people think. The world and people have a funny knack of figuring it out. I agree Kilgore, I think it will happen eventually. Of course, we will have a Jedi Council by then. :)

A good thing about massive infectious diseases (such as the plague...okay, not really a good thing, but something good that came out of it) is that once an infectious disease goes through a population, it reduces the strain on resources and can bring about a golden age of production following the strains run. Some people think part of the success of the renaissance was the fact that the plaque reduced the number of people straining resources.

FOR THE 1000th time it feels like, WE ARE NOT AT OR NEAR THAT POINT. I only said that such a point does and must exist.

568 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:16:49pm

re: #525 SixDegrees

NHS is also one of the primary reasons that Brits have been paying the eqivalent of $6/gal for gas for as long as I can remember. Not because of oil prices but in order to sustain their social programs, NHS primary among them.
We will think fondly of the $4/gal we were paying last year if Obama passes his 'free' health care.

569 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:16:55pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

Yes.

I know it's long, but read the whole report -- I address that issue.

570 JacksonTn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:17:07pm

re: #563 mrshankly01

is there an LGF iPhone app?

mrshanklyn01 ... I am not sure ... I thought Charles had one done some time ago but I am new to the iphone ...

571 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:18:36pm

re: #531 Idle Drifter

I'll have to add these to my reading list.

So long as you're at it, add The Squares of the City. My favorite, actually.

572 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:18:40pm

re: #556 JCM

We'll continue Weber or not you participate.

But if we can finally make it, it'll be a Fluke.

573 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:18:50pm

So, the LLL scientists were sure that the Earth's population was out of control. Then, they were sure we were headed for the next ice age. Now they're sure "climate change" is the next planetary disaster.

/hmmm . . .

574 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:19:08pm

re: #510 JCM

Another joule of a pun.

575 Lincolntf  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:19:41pm

re: #573 Killian Bundy

Funny how the "crisis" constantly changes, but the "solution" never does.

576 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:19:58pm

re: #572 pre-Boomer Marine brat

But if we can finally make it, it'll be a Fluke.

Composer puns will really Strauss me out.

577 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:20:25pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

It makes me cringe to even suggest this but Glenn Beck would be all over this.

I purposely don't notify the more "out there" type of media sites, with WND and Glenn Beck, but more often than not someone else sends them the link anyway. It's better if they follow on this issue, not lead the way.

578 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:20:29pm

re: #562 zombie

Wow! I looked for that, and even tried to access that very page when writing the report, but for some reason it didn't work for me. However, I will now add that to the report, and you have earned yourself a hat tip for excellent digging!

Be warned: you can only read so much of the book before they cut you off. You can sign up to finish reading. It's still interesting just for reference, if people really want to read the whole thing they can sign up.

579 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:20:50pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

Kids are expensive. Don't need as many anymore to work on the farm, take care of us when we get older, etc.

They also say the damnedest things, at the damnedest times.

Hey sas, if you are still out there. Have you seen those TV adds where they promise one kid something real and then give the other something fake? I swear those are unrehearsed, the expression on the kids face is so real.

580 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:20:52pm

re: #538 Shr_Nfr

Actually, technology allows us to have a lower population. As people are more easily able to take care of themselves, they understand that they no longer have to create 10 kids to have enough to survive. Aside from the various religious fanatics, technologically advanced civilizations settle down to around replacement rate or even under it. (e.g. Japan). There are more fun things to do than change diapers.

Japan - and the US - have been below replacement level birthrates for several decades now. Technologically advanced societies are more complicated to thrive in, and people tend to concentrate their resources into educating one or two children in the intricacies of survival. And as you note, technology takes the place of people in many ways. Around the turn of the century, it took a household full of servants to provide what we consider today to be a minimal middle-class lifestyle. Now, we don't even need specialists like typesetters to get our work done - as Dan Rather knows so well. Instead, we use energy more or less directly to perform the cooking, laundry, pumping, washing and other tasks once performed by others, making lots of low-paid workers unnecessary.

581 Tamron  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:21:02pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

Also, before you tell me horror stories about English socialized medicine, I would counter that Israeli medicine is very good - and it is free to all citizens.


Interesting. Following the money, does anyone here know what the pay structure of Israeli doctors is, versus American doctors? Do Israeli doctors have a labor union comparable to the AMA, looking out for their standard of living?
.

582 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:21:20pm

re: #570 JacksonTn

thanks. i use my iPhone to read here sometimes, but it is hard to comment.

583 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:21:42pm

re: #556 JCM

We'll continue Weber or not you participate.

I can't resist when I am so far from ohm. Maybe too many puns will impede the current of the conversation, but I thing we have the capacity to condense our thoughts here in a non-imaginary way. Just because electromagnetism puns make some people tensor, does not mean we should not indulge.

I am now going to eat an Oh Henry bar :)

584 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:21:44pm

re: #560 Pianobuff

Ouch...that Hertz.

We seem to have entered a new cycle.

585 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:22:11pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I'm still reading (sorry, late to the thread) but has anyone else pointed out that they are talking about hypothetical disaster scenarios and not advocating forced sterilization as a matter of general principal?

At what point does it become acceptable to thoughtfully contemplate, however hypothetically, forced abortions?

586 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:22:41pm

re: #575 Lincolntf

Funny how the "crisis" constantly changes, but the "solution" never does.

That's a classic kenneth -the solution being more government control.

587 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:22:45pm

Sealed Knot - So You Want To Be A Pikeman

588 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:22:55pm

re: #579 turn

Hey sas, if you are still out there. Have you seen those TV adds where they promise one kid something real and then give the other something fake? I swear those are unrehearsed, the expression on the kids face is so real.

The one with the pony bothers me. The disappointed look on the little girl's face breaks my heart.

589 Dianna  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:23:11pm

re: #561 LudwigVanQuixote

Is government rationing worse than the HMO's rationing?

I'm willing to bet it would be.

And HMOs don't ration as much as all that. In fact, I haven't had the slightest difficulty getting fairly exotic treatment. So I'm not inclined to be impressed with the "HMO rationing" argument.

590 SixDegrees  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:23:15pm

re: #568 LGoPs

NHS is also one of the primary reasons that Brits have been paying the eqivalent of $6/gal for gas for as long as I can remember. Not because of oil prices but in order to sustain their social programs, NHS primary among them.
We will think fondly of the $4/gal we were paying last year if Obama passes his 'free' health care.

Indeed. It has also been a very long time since Britain produced a steady stream of medical discoveries of any sort, since R&D doesn't directly contribute to care and is one of the first things to get tossed when medicine gets nationalized.

591 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:23:16pm

re: #579 turn

Hey sas, if you are still out there. Have you seen those TV adds where they promise one kid something real and then give the other something fake? I swear those are unrehearsed, the expression on the kids face is so real.

Heh, no, haven't seen that one.

592 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:23:26pm

re: #573 Killian Bundy

So, the LLL scientists were sure that the Earth's population was out of control. Then, they were sure we were headed for the next ice age. Now they're sure "climate change" is the next planetary disaster.

/hmmm . . .

So were were heading for an ice age until the pollution and GHG's we dumped into the environment turned the trend around - and it is not just the LLL scientists who say this, but rather the whole scientific community with very few exceptions.

593 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:23:34pm

re: #584 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We seem to have entered a new cycle.

Hope no one re-coils from this thread.

594 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:24:22pm

re: #421 ArchangelMichael

Like I said in my comment to Zombie last night. He might be trying to backpedal from this now, but the fact that man ever thought this way should disqualify him from the position he's in. He jumps to worst case scenario conclusions way too quickly and does not look outside the box for solutions. He only looks in the old tried and true totalitarian box, and pulls out the same tolls tyrants have used or sought to use throughout history.

He should be pouring Venti Chais at the Starbucks in DC, not advising the President on science policy.

Agreed!

595 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:25:09pm

re: #586 turn

you dumb shit turn - sorry lincolnf

596 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:25:12pm

re: #584 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We seem to have entered a new cycle.

At least there is a lot of dip tolerance on this thread.

597 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:25:15pm

re: #589 Dianna

I'm willing to bet it would be.

And HMOs don't ration as much as all that. In fact, I haven't had the slightest difficulty getting fairly exotic treatment. So I'm not inclined to be impressed with the "HMO rationing" argument.

That might be because the so called HMO no longer exists. Doctors and hospitals sign up with HMO plans, but they also have PPO, cash, private insurance, medicare, personal injury, and worker compensation patients to make up revenue short falls.

598 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:25:38pm

re: #583 LudwigVanQuixote

I can't resist when I am so far from ohm. Maybe too many puns will impede the current of the conversation, but I thing we have the capacity to condense our thoughts here in a non-imaginary way. Just because electromagnetism puns make some people tensor, does not mean we should not indulge.

I am now going to eat an Oh Henry bar :)

What a tangled coil you weave, and you're probably just winding up!
What's your primary problem? Do you need help to rectifier?

599 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:26:17pm

re: #589 Dianna

I'm willing to bet it would be.

And HMOs don't ration as much as all that. In fact, I haven't had the slightest difficulty getting fairly exotic treatment. So I'm not inclined to be impressed with the "HMO rationing" argument.

I am happy that worked out for you.

A large portion if my family are medical doctors. They can each tell you dozens of stories where they thought a certain test or procedure was called for and the insurance companies made all sorts of noise. In several cases, several of my relatives dropped their own fees, so that the patient could have something needed even though it was not going to be paid for.

Not all doctors are as kind minded as my relatives.

600 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:26:19pm

medved is on krla 870 in LA talking to an author of a jimmy carter book about the malaise speech of 30 years ago ...

i rarely listen to medved, but this is really good stuff

601 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:26:19pm

re: #588 LGoPs

The one with the pony bothers me. The disappointed look on the little girl's face breaks my heart.

Me too, it must be real. The little kid who gets the car taken away and given a cardboard cutout isn't acting either.

602 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:26:35pm

CNN is about to have the President of the Club which tossed out the black kids form the pool. This oughta be good.

603 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:26:43pm

re: #589 Dianna

I'm willing to bet it would be.

And HMOs don't ration as much as all that. In fact, I haven't had the slightest difficulty getting fairly exotic treatment. So I'm not inclined to be impressed with the "HMO rationing" argument.

I think the concept of an HMO "rationing" is a bit out of whack to begin with. The HMO can tell you what is and is not included in the fees you pay, but it cannot prevent you from getting whatever care you're willing to pay for beyond that.... either through insurance supplements or out of pocket.

604 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:27:24pm

re: #598 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What a tangled coil you weave, and you're probably just winding up!
What's your primary problem? Do you need help to rectifier?

I'm in a flux thinking of how to respond.

605 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:28:26pm

re: #590 SixDegrees

Indeed. It has also been a very long time since Britain produced a steady stream of medical discoveries of any sort, since R&D doesn't directly contribute to care and is one of the first things to get tossed when medicine gets nationalized.

Exactly. As an example my wife tells me that dental care is terrible in England because they spend no money on preventive measures.
My wife is American btw. Just spent many years living in England after college.

606 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:28:29pm

re: #603 eschew_obfuscation

I think the concept of an HMO "rationing" is a bit out of whack to begin with. The HMO can tell you what is and is not included in the fees you pay, but it cannot prevent you from getting whatever care you're willing to pay for beyond that.... either through insurance supplements or out of pocket.

It is my experience that the HMO tells the doctor what he can collect for a service and his contract says he can't collect any more from the patient. And further if he forgets to get the proper referral he is require to eat the fees.

607 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:28:38pm

re: #593 calcajun

Hope no one re-coils from this thread.

It certainly won't go out with a whimper.
It'll dielectric.

608 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:28:46pm

re: #603 eschew_obfuscation

I think the concept of an HMO "rationing" is a bit out of whack to begin with. The HMO can tell you what is and is not included in the fees you pay, but it cannot prevent you from getting whatever care you're willing to pay for beyond that.... either through insurance supplements or out of pocket.

And if you do not have that money in your pocket you are just SOL. It is effectively rationing.

609 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:30:42pm

re: #604 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm in a flux thinking of how to respond.

Then I'll leave you alone ferrite now.

610 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:31:53pm

re: #493 turn

I didn't know you made it on Drudge zomb, what were the articles about?

Gee, it's been so long, I don't even rememeber any more. I do know that they were not the kind of "big" zombietime posts that you might expect, but rather funny little "lesser" posts.

Unfortunately, Drudge's page is constantly being updated and each link is in no way archived, so there's no way to save or bookmark the magic Drudge-a-lanche moment.

611 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:32:31pm

re: #607 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It certainly won't go out with a whimper.
It'll dielectric.

Are you guys still back here making stupic puns, why don't you save it for a faraday?

612 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:32:56pm

re: #607 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It certainly won't go out with a whimper.
It'll dielectric.

well you will have ample opportunity :)

613 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:33:09pm

re: #610 zombie

Gee, it's been so long, I don't even rememeber any more. I do know that they were not the kind of "big" zombietime posts that you might expect, but rather funny little "lesser" posts.

Unfortunately, Drudge's page is constantly being updated and each link is in no way archived, so there's no way to save or bookmark the magic Drudge-a-lanche moment.

I wish you the best of luck zomb, thanks.

614 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:34:00pm

re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote

And if you do not have that money in your pocket you are just SOL. It is effectively rationing.

Only if you can't pay for it. Rationing is preventing you from getting it. I've already addressed the group who want and can't afford or can't get insurance.

You haven't said it yet, but it's beginning to sound as if you think people do not have a responsibility to pay for health care they need?
(btw.... I am one who wants, can pay for, but cannot get private health insurance. I have a CHIPS plan, so I understand the problem)

615 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:34:37pm

re: #566 turn

Sorry, I had missed your post until Zombie reproduced it. Your post was quite correct.

616 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:34:37pm

re: #409 LudwigVanQuixote

I will have to look for the actual paper I read some time ago. Like I said earlier, it does not matter what the actual number is as much as one exists.

I asked you for a simple mathematical equation, and you belched up a huge quantity of bullshit.

Agricultural technology, including hydroponics, can increase crop yield, and water management can increase fresh water supply.

And you have to have a free society where such innovations are possible.

Look at Israel, then look at Zimbabwe.

617 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:34:43pm

re: #533 ArchangelMichael

He used passive voice and weasel words in that a lot to try to distance himself from what he was saying. Leads me to believe he knows that he was advocating something vile.

I agree. He knows it's distasteful. But he couldn't stop himself from recommending it anyway.

618 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:35:15pm

re: #611 turn

Just taking it to the Max. Well how about it?

619 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:35:23pm

Hot Air is linking to Malkin's story about this.

620 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:35:40pm

re: #609 pre-Boomer Marine brat

How ironic.

621 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:35:49pm

Falling asleep. Won't have the chance to see the racist POS stammer.

622 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:36:46pm

re: #612 LudwigVanQuixote

That is the current thinking, now isn't it?

623 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:36:47pm

Oh, CNN teasing the pool story for right after the break! 120 secs.

624 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:37:07pm

re: #581 Tamron

Interesting. Following the money, does anyone here know what the pay structure of Israeli doctors is, versus American doctors? Do Israeli doctors have a labor union comparable to the AMA, looking out for their standard of living?
.

I don't know the answers to that. It would be very interesting to find out. Given the nature of Israeli politics though, I can not imagine that medical practitioners there go without an advocacy group of some sort though.

625 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:37:18pm

re: #620 Shr_Nfr

How ironic.

Air cores, it is.

/admittedly not a good one, but it's on-subject

626 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:38:00pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

Be warned: you can only read so much of the book before they cut you off. You can sign up to finish reading. It's still interesting just for reference, if people really want to read the whole thing they can sign up.

OK.

That's what was happening to me, but i was being cut off before I could see anything. (I already had the real book of course, but I wanted the online link.) I'll use it anyway. Thanks.

627 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:38:14pm

re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote

And if you do not have that money in your pocket you are just SOL. It is effectively rationing.

The government imposed HMO Act - how'd it work for everyone?

628 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:39:19pm

re: #609 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Then I'll leave you alone ferrite now.

Good thinking. People who take time to respond to these puns armature.

629 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:39:22pm

re: #625 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Had to twist that one huh? Circular reasoning and all. Nothing quite like a torid pun thread.

630 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:39:27pm

re: #619 HelloDare

Hot Air is linking to Malkin's story about this.

Woo-hoo!

631 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:40:02pm

On Now

632 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:40:17pm

OKl I finally caught up with the end of the thread. Off to attend to real-world duties. Thanks everyone!

633 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:40:25pm

re: #628 calcajun

Good thinking. People who take time to respond to these puns armature.

I can't induce any more of these.
Can we mica capacitor-pun thread out of this?

634 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:40:39pm

re: #628 calcajun

I wlll brush that comment off.

635 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:40:52pm

re: #611 turn

Are you guys still back here making stupic puns, why don't you save it for a faraday?

How dare you suggest our pun potential be caged.

636 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:41:24pm

re: #633 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Only if you have enough permitivity to do so.

637 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:41:49pm

re: #629 Shr_Nfr

Had to twist that one huh? Circular reasoning and all. Nothing quite like a torid pun thread.

LOL!
*rimshot*

638 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:41:59pm

re: #635 calcajun

He's Eddy's son?

639 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:42:37pm

re: #634 Shr_Nfr

I wlll brush that comment off.

I will relay your sentiments to the rest of the board.

640 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:43:25pm

re: #618 Shr_Nfr

Just taking it to the Max. Well how about it?

Hey I'd love to sick around and pun with ya, but right now I got to boltzmann.

641 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:43:34pm

Tears and excuses. I'm not buying it. The only real tears were from one of the kids. I hope they nuke that damned club.

642 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:44:33pm

re: #639 calcajun

I will leave the board wire you do so. Outta here. Other stuff to tend to.

643 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:45:45pm

re: #636 Shr_Nfr

Only if you have enough permitivity to do so.

Admittance is the first step to a cure.

644 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:46:36pm

re: #639 calcajun

I will relay your sentiments to the rest of the board.

But Mandy's left.
How will you contactor?

645 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:46:46pm

re: #488 nyc redneck

that's why the pop in the u.s. is barely holding on. too many baby boomer women w/ only careers on their mind. bad move. many regret it. we do not have an over pop. problem here. and as i said, neither does europe. they are seriously on the decline. also japan. it is heartbreaking that granny age japanese women buy these toddler dolls that talk. and they treat them like grandchildren because they have none.
for your plan to combat starvation w/out war, you need to go to the middle east and other moslem countries and shut down the birth rates there.
it is suicide for the western world to continue to decline in population as the moslem nations grow.
you are not going to stop war by lowering your population.

So it would be unacceptable to forcibly lower the population growth in our own country--we all seem agreed there--but we should go to the Middle East and 'shut down' population growth there? How? And how is this morally acceptable?

646 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:47:00pm

re: #635 calcajun

How dare you suggest our pun potential be caged.

You guys are such a bohr ...

647 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:48:13pm

re: #642 Shr_Nfr

I will leave the board wire you do so. Outta here. Other stuff to tend to.

Just remember to leave via the door.
/had to pad the thread with one more, rather than leave without a trace

648 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:48:44pm

I like the headline in this blog which linked to my report:

Obama’s Chief Science Advisor Makes Dr. Strangelove Look Like Dr. Phil

649 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:49:00pm

re: #622 Shr_Nfr

That is the current thinking, now isn't it?

It was also current thinking at one time that the continents didn't move. It was also current thinking at one time that the sun revolved around the earth. It was also current thinking at one time that (fill in the blank). Just because something is in vogue or current thinking does not mean that it is entirely correct. As Ludwig pointed out, science is not a democracy, nor is it concensus. All it takes is one person (Alfred Wagener, Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Darwin, etc) to create a theory or make a discovery and have it stand the test of time.

650 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:49:07pm

re: #646 turn

You guys are such a bohr ...

OMG!
Turn just threw in a neutron bomb!

651 Clubsec  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:49:21pm

Erlich is a complete and utter fraud. He predicted all kinds of catastrophe's. End of oil, end of crop production, end of ... hell you name it he predicted it's demise.

January 2008, ObamUH proclaimed, "[U]nder my plan of a cap and trade [sic] system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket ... because I'm capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, natural gas ... you name it ... whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. ... [T]hey will pass that money on to the consumers."
The man can't even get his words straight ... to be accurate he should have said, "... will pass that COST on to consumers."
And NOW ... Taxman and Malarky will absolutely destroy this already critically ill economy. So how's that stimulus working for you now as we approach double digit unemployment?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: We're fucked, and I'm being optimistic in that regard.

652 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:50:31pm

re: #616 Alouette

I asked you for a simple mathematical equation, and you belched up a huge quantity of bullshit.

Agricultural technology, including hydroponics, can increase crop yield, and water management can increase fresh water supply.

Excuse me, that was the how you would calculate it. There is no bullshit. Energy really is conserved. The energy that we use to make food really does come from the sun. Therefore, no bullshit, solar flux is the ultimate absolute limit on the calculation. Once you know that, it is really very simple algebra to figure out how much energy per day hits the Earth's farmland, multiply by the efficiency of conversion (into calories we can ingest), which really will be on order 1% , and then ask if that meets the energy needs per day of a given population.

(Needs per day)(x, the magic number) = (Flux)(Area of farm land available)(1%)

Solve for x.

There are no tricks up the sleeve. There are no complicated mathematical arguments. There is noting but the ability to multiply and divide. Since I do not have all of the numbers in front of me, I did not do it for you - but, assuming you can handle fifth grade math, there is no reason you can't calculate it yourself once you look the relevant numbers up.

Now, this by the way, is a highball estimate, the flux over the Earth is not the same due to the Earth's curvature. To really do it right, you would need to integrate over the surface of the Earth. However, just taking the average flux would likely give you a good estimate.

As to water, like I said, that gets more complicated. However, there is a limit on how much we could desalinate and pump. Calculating that limit is more a matter of economics and much less firm, so I said it's tricky. It is, but that also does not mean that a limit does not exist.

653 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:51:12pm

re: #649 Honorary Yooper

Yoop, they were on a electromagnetic pun, but hey I liked your post.

654 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:51:47pm

re: #650 pre-Boomer Marine brat

OMG!
Turn just threw in a neutron bomb!

Are you uncertainty of that?

655 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:52:13pm

re: #653 turn

Ugh. That's a shock.

656 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:52:34pm

re: #654 turn

Are you uncertainty of that?

Maybe it was just a quark of fate.

657 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:53:36pm

re: #644 pre-Boomer Marine brat

But Mandy's left.
How will you contactor?

Mandy left? I thought someone just rotor off?

658 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:53:37pm

re: #655 Honorary Yooper

Ugh. That's a shock.

You have been grounded!
No more static outta you!

659 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:54:07pm

re: #656 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Maybe it was just a quark of fate.

Hey no fair, turn already used that one upthread. Now I'm going to kick you in you heisenberg for that one.

660 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:54:21pm

re: #508 eschew_obfuscation

I agree that there is some group of people who want, do not have, and cannot get health insurance and are at risk of major health care expense. That group's needs should be addressed in some way, but that is a small group relative to the population.

The Obama health care plan would be a tiny fraction of its current size were that what it was addressing.

That's a reasonable argument. I just get angry when people here seem to suggest that health care as it stands is great and universally available, and react contemptuously to the idea that anyone actually lacks the health care they need. I've been in tears on the phone calling in personal favors to get my husband medical attention back before we married, and he began to use my coverage. I've been denied coverage, unable to buy health insurance for ready money. It's scary and horrible.

661 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:54:38pm

re: #656 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Maybe it was just a quark of fate.

Talking of physics on a Friday afternoon is a dark matter indeed.

662 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:55:09pm

re: #656 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Maybe it was just a quark of fate.

It might just take you some time to renormalize...

If we are going to have QM puns, why not field theory puns...

663 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:55:50pm

re: #662 LudwigVanQuixote

It might just take you some time to renormalize...

If we are going to have QM puns, why not field theory puns...

No one want to ride that wave.

664 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:55:51pm

Good Friday afternoon Lizard nation. Sounds Like these guys need to get with Prince Charles, he pulled a Gore and said we have about 96 months to clean up our mess and save the planet or it's game over. I knew he was a doofus, but sheesh. Then again, this is the dumbass that was fucking around with horse face Camilla when he had a knock out at home!

665 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:55:53pm

re: #657 calcajun

Mandy left? I thought someone just rotor off?

Maybe it RPMs.

/gotta phoneticize that one carefully ... and I better *DUCK!*

666 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:56:54pm

re: #659 turn

Hey no fair, turn already used that one upthread. Now I'm going to kick you in you heisenberg for that one.

OOPS!
My bad!

667 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:56:57pm

re: #662 LudwigVanQuixote

It might just take you some time to renormalize...

If we are going to have QM puns, why not field theory puns...

Careful, you'll be forced to walk the Planck for that suggestion.

668 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:57:13pm

re: #565 kansas

Sorry your Dad has both of those things. My Dad had both of those too, pancreatic cancer for which his pancreas was removed giving him diabetes. Had colon cancer too.

My husband and I are thinking of delivering an ultimatum to both our parents--no one is allowed to get sick or age any more until the grandkids are in college.

/

669 kansas  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:57:24pm

From Newsweek

Beyond the Palin Why the GOP is falling out of love with gun-toting, churchgoing, working-class whites.

Getting kind of racist over there isn't it?

670 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:57:25pm

re: #665 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Trons, trons everywhere! I have a PET scan tomorrow, that is Positron something or other. Cool, positrons!

671 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:57:57pm

re: #664 pingjockey

Good Friday afternoon Lizard nation. Sounds Like these guys need to get with Prince Charles, he pulled a Gore and said we have about 96 months to clean up our mess and save the planet or it's game over. I knew he was a doofus, but sheesh. Then again, this is the dumbass that was fucking around with horse face Camilla when he had a knock out at home!

96 months? Well, time to fire up the smoker and kick back with some fine Scotch. I won't much care then.

672 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:57:58pm
673 Hanoch  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:58:44pm

"Renounce"? Perhaps. But "a chance to explain"? No. These are the ravings of a degenerate, totalitarian mind. No explanation could possibly justify these comments.

674 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:59:07pm

re: #274 LudwigVanQuixote

Why? For saying that our current medical system has well known flaws and that it is not clear to me that the government would do it worse? I am not saying I think they would do it better. I am just not convinced they would do it worse.

I've got two words for you, "Veterans' Administration".

675 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 1:59:15pm

re: #671 calcajun
These people are all idiots. Be nice if they'd join zero population growth and remove their carbon foot print...permanetly.

676 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:00:08pm
677 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:00:27pm

re: #674 Son of the Black Dog
No shit! The government can do one thing better than private enterprise, kill the bad guys.

678 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:00:43pm

re: #662 LudwigVanQuixote

It might just take you some time to renormalize...

If we are going to have QM puns, why not field theory puns...

I tried to get into semiconductor theory up-thread, but my efforts went down the drain.

/I admit, they were base

679 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:01:13pm

re: #667 turn

Careful, you'll be forced to walk the Planck for that suggestion.

I see we're taking it to the Max.

680 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:01:27pm

re: #614 eschew_obfuscation

Only if you can't pay for it. Rationing is preventing you from getting it. I've already addressed the group who want and can't afford or can't get insurance.

You haven't said it yet, but it's beginning to sound as if you think people do not have a responsibility to pay for health care they need?
(btw.... I am one who wants, can pay for, but cannot get private health insurance. I have a CHIPS plan, so I understand the problem)

People certainly do have a responsibility to pay what they can. However, I have a hard time swallowing the notion that someone who can afford an needed procedure is somehow more deserving of it than someone who can not.

I would much prefer a world where certain things were done because it was the right thing to do, and not because of making a profit. And yes, it is part of my faith - that you need to help others in time of need - even strangers. My faith goes so far as to tell me that I should violate all but three of it's laws in the interest of saving another's life. So yes, saving lives is a big deal to me.

That said, it is not clear to me that our current system would provide better health care if it were socialized. It nay well be that more lives get saved if we do things the way we do them now.

But if you are going to take this to the bottom line, I would say that lives are a vastly more important consideration than dollars.

681 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:01:37pm

re: #661 calcajun

Talking of physics on a Friday afternoon is a dark matter indeed.

Not really, but it certainly is a modified dynamic.

682 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:01:59pm

re: #667 turn

Careful, you'll be forced to walk the Planck for that suggestion.

That's ok fermi

683 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:02:06pm

re: #670 pingjockey

Trons, trons everywhere! I have a PET scan tomorrow, that is Positron something or other. Cool, positrons!

Your cat's gonna be scanned?

684 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:02:27pm
685 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:03:49pm

re: #683 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Heh. They're going to give me a glucose IV, apperently the little cancer critters absorb the sugar and the PET scan can see them glowing as the metabolize the sugar. We want the be sure the critters in my neck haven't gone walkabout anywhere else!

686 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:04:21pm

re: #684 buzzsawmonkey
Mwahahaha! Nice!

687 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:04:26pm

re: #674 Son of the Black Dog

I've got two words for you, "Veterans' Administration".

Well said. Very well said. My brother was a resident who did rotations in the V.A. I have heard a ton of horror stories.

Obviously, any model that would be adopted would have to be much better run than that.

688 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:04:49pm

re: #661 calcajun

the puns are stringing everyone around

689 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:04:59pm

re: #682 LudwigVanQuixote

That's ok fermi

No fair, piling on!

690 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:05:33pm

Yes, the old advice for overpopulation - "Kill Yourself & Burn Your Clothes" - in no particular order.

-S-

691 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:05:49pm

re: #688 mrshankly01

the puns are stringing everyone around

This would seem to be their domain.

692 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:05:50pm

re: #688 mrshankly01
These damn puns are headed for an event horizon and I don't think they're coming back!

693 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:05:53pm

re: #664 pingjockey

i like that phrase, "a knock at home." i am going to tell my wife she is my "knock at home." thanks.

694 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:06:01pm

re: #685 pingjockey

Heh. They're going to give me a glucose IV, apperently the little cancer critters absorb the sugar and the PET scan can see them glowing as the metabolize the sugar. We want the be sure the critters in my neck haven't gone walkabout anywhere else!

VERY best wishes!

695 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:06:21pm
696 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:06:47pm

re: #693 mrshankly01
Crap...Knock out at home, but hey if it works....

697 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:07:38pm

re: #694 pre-Boomer Marine brat
The doc and I figure that if the little bastards have stayed where they are, we're gonna nuke 'em all!

698 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:07:49pm

re: #675 pingjockey

These people are all idiots. Be nice if they'd join zero population growth and remove their carbon foot print...permanently.

Too late--they're already reproduced.

Folks--the world will end one day. It is inevitable. We are all gonna die--one day. We live on dynamic chunks of rock floating on seas of lava 93,000,000 miles from a God-normous fusion reactor that if it decides to burp will wipe us out in an instant. We can slip and fall in the shower tomorrow, or the Swine Flu can do another antigen shift and turn into Captain Tripps (for all you Stephen King fans) and wipe us out.

Life here is precarious, to say the least. Is the climate changing? I'd have to say yes. Are we doing anything to hasten that change? I dunno--but short of some sudden and drastic form of depopulation or the West suddenly becoming en masse a group of latter-day Luddites, I don't see that the short-term solution is. To have Gore and HRH the PoW making such pronouncements is akin to all the fleas on the dog voting to take some action to keep their planet "Fido" from wagging its tail.

699 doppelganglander  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:07:51pm

re: #669 kansas

From Newsweek

Beyond the Palin Why the GOP is falling out of love with gun-toting, churchgoing, working-class whites.

Getting kind of racist over there isn't it?

And people wonder why gun-toting, working-class, church-going whites are becoming more receptive to Ron Paul and his nutty friends.

700 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:08:12pm

re: #680 LudwigVanQuixote

People certainly do have a responsibility to pay what they can. However, I have a hard time swallowing the notion that someone who can afford an needed procedure is somehow more deserving of it than someone who can not.

I would much prefer a world where certain things were done because it was the right thing to do, and not because of making a profit. And yes, it is part of my faith - that you need to help others in time of need - even strangers. My faith goes so far as to tell me that I should violate all but three of it's laws in the interest of saving another's life. So yes, saving lives is a big deal to me.

That said, it is not clear to me that our current system would provide better health care if it were socialized. It nay well be that more lives get saved if we do things the way we do them now.

But if you are going to take this to the bottom line, I would say that lives are a vastly more important consideration than dollars.

This is one of those areas where one's value system matters when making law. I would fully support your "saving another's life" point. The sticky part comes when you ask others, who may not share your values, to pay according to your values (and mine). This is akin to "legislating morality" that so many object to and I believe we some times have to do.

701 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:08:21pm

re: #677 pingjockey

No shit! The government can do one thing better than private enterprise, kill the bad guys.

The problem is that in the government's eyes--many of us are becoming the "bad guys"

702 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:08:41pm

re: #674 Son of the Black Dog

yea, there is the big elephant in the room that proponents of a government option aren't addressing: the current government options are expensive and inefficient. (medicare, medicaid, VA, military medicine [Walter Reid]). how can we be sure the newest one won't be?

703 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:08:45pm

re: #682 LudwigVanQuixote

That's ok fermi

Realy, doesn't that hertz?

704 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:09:34pm

re: #695 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, indeed. I can only hope that whatever laughter I can direct at them helps to wither them.

That's an opportunity one shouldn't shrink from!

(But since they might come back, we should keep track of wither they went.)

705 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:09:56pm

re: #688 mrshankly01

the puns are stringing everyone around

The constant punning is taking its toll.

706 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:10:27pm

re: #692 pingjockey

These damn puns are headed for an event horizon and I don't think they're coming back!

I don't what to derive from that pun?

707 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:10:27pm

re: #688 mrshankly01

the puns are stringing everyone around

Is that your theory? You're a real Einstein, not.
/

708 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:10:30pm

re: #692 pingjockey

more like critical mass

709 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:10:31pm

re: #701 calcajun
I don't know how many of us they count as "bad guys". People who support the constitution without having it reinterpreted!

710 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:10:33pm

re: #698 calcajun

Too late--they're already reproduced.

Folks--the world will end one day. It is inevitable. We are all gonna die--one day. We live on dynamic chunks of rock floating on seas of lava 93,000,000 miles from a God-normous fusion reactor that if it decides to burp will wipe us out in an instant. We can slip and fall in the shower tomorrow, or the Swine Flu can do another antigen shift and turn into Captain Tripps (for all you Stephen King fans) and wipe us out.

Life here is precarious, to say the least. Is the climate changing? I'd have to say yes. Are we doing anything to hasten that change? I dunno--but short of some sudden and drastic form of depopulation or the West suddenly becoming en masse a group of latter-day Luddites, I don't see that the short-term solution is. To have Gore and HRH the PoW making such pronouncements is akin to all the fleas on the dog voting to take some action to keep their planet "Fido" from wagging its tail.

Has the climate ever not been changing?

711 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:11:04pm

re: #707 turn

Is that your theory? You're a real Einstein, not.
/

This is making membrane hurt!

712 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:11:05pm

re: #696 pingjockey

my bad...i thought it was real...sounded British.

713 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:11:22pm

re: #708 mrshankly01
Heh. We're headed for an implosion of stellar proportions!

714 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:12:10pm

re: #705 calcajun

The constant punning is taking its toll.

I'm getting pi-eyed from reading them.

715 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:12:16pm

re: #712 mrshankly01
Hah! Me typing to damn fast and I have a tendency not to pimf. Like most of the time.

716 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:12:24pm

re: #697 pingjockey

Good luck ping, you can beat this thing.

717 poteen  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:12:57pm

Quick hit.

For 16M I'll babysit the cheese eatin' bastards.


[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

718 right_wing2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:13:31pm

Was Paul Ehrlich right about anything?

719 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:14:04pm

I am calling to order this first meeting of the Committee to Nuke Pingjockey.

720 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:14:27pm

re: #716 turn
Damn straight. I've got a frackin' lizard army! Just like everybody else around here. We can whup the hell out of anything.

721 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:15:39pm

re: #711 eschew_obfuscation

This is making membrane hurt!

Maybe you're just tensor something.

722 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:16:33pm

I fear this thread is evolving into something irreducibly complex.

723 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:16:34pm

re: #720 pingjockey

HELL YES!

724 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:16:42pm

re: #710 haakondahl

every 120 days or so...

725 right_wing2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:16:48pm

Incorrigible punster. Do not incorrige.

726 JacksonTn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:17:02pm

re: #720 pingjockey

Damn straight. I've got a frackin' lizard army! Just like everybody else around here. We can whup the hell out of anything.

ping .. I am so sorry ... watch many comedies ... I know it sounds crazy but for me laughter was the only way to deal ... oh and music ... hang in there and when your body starts looking and acting weird ... just go with it ... you are strong ...

727 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:17:12pm

re: #718 right_wing2

Was Paul Ehrlich right about anything?

He got published?

728 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:17:23pm

re: #719 haakondahl
Mwahahaha!
Flipped the doc out on the questionaire though, it asked if you ever been exposed to nonmedical/dental radiation and I said yes. He was what the hell? I said I used to load nuclear weapons. He thought that was kind of different!

729 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:17:44pm

re: #722 haakondahl

I fear this thread is evolving into something irreducibly complex.

There's no intelligent design here, that's fer damn sure.

730 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:17:55pm

re: #721 turn

Maybe you're just tensor something.

He does sound a bit out of sorts. Perhaps he Kaluza-Klein word from somebody.

731 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:18:20pm

re: #721 turn

Maybe you're just tensor something.

Probably. I think I'll take a couple of Hadron and call-a-dr in the morning.

732 right_wing2  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:18:47pm

re: #727 calcajun

Didn't he write 'Population Bomb' about how by 1990 or 2000 or something there would be millions of people starving because we couldn't produce enough food?

733 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:19:07pm

re: #726 JacksonTn
Oh yeah. The doc was looking at the above questionaire I filled out and he said if it wasn't for that thing in my neck I was as fit as a onager!

734 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:19:22pm

re: #728 pingjockey

Mwahahaha!
Flipped the doc out on the questionaire though, it asked if you ever been exposed to nonmedical/dental radiation and I said yes. He was what the hell? I said I used to load nuclear weapons. He thought that was kind of different!

I didn't know that, how interesting. Did you work at Hanford?

735 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:19:51pm

re: #733 pingjockey

Oh yeah. The doc was looking at the above questionaire I filled out and he said if it wasn't for that thing in my neck I was as fit as a onager!

You've been fitted for a dowager?

736 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:20:25pm

re: #729 calcajun

There's no intelligent design here, that's fer damn sure.

That's good.
We shouldn't be driving a Wedge between friends.

737 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:20:44pm

re: #731 eschew_obfuscation

Probably. I think I'll take a couple of Hadron and call-a-dr in the morning.

Last time I took those I collided with a wall.

738 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:20:56pm

re: #732 right_wing2

Didn't he write 'Population Bomb' about how by 1990 or 2000 or something there would be millions of people starving because we couldn't produce enough food?

And a lot of other doom n'gloom writers got published in the same time frame, too. And, their books sold.

739 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:20:59pm

Excellent work, Zombie! Thank you.

740 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:22:02pm

re: #734 turn

We used to, in the bad 'ol cold war days have nuclear depth charges on board frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. I thought it was kind of dumb. The damn rocket would only put the warhead out about 10,000 yds, 5 nautical miles. Hell the damn shockwave through the water would probably bust the keel of the ship! They went away back in the 80s.

741 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:22:04pm

re: #738 calcajun

And a lot of other doom n'gloom writers got published in the same time frame, too. And, their books sold.

Those books were bought by the truckload for communities and schools.

742 Buck  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:22:20pm

re: #294 GOPManHatTanIte

Possible White House Press Release (complete with speeling errors): "The best way to learn is from past mistakes, we feel this type of experience is optimal for all of our advisiors and staf. Just lerning from a mistake proviedes the most best way to make less mistakes in the future."

Maybe he did learn from his mistake...

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....

743 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:22:29pm

re: #735 haakondahl
onager = wild ass

744 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:22:39pm

re: #740 pingjockey

We used to, in the bad 'ol cold war days have nuclear depth charges on board frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. I thought it was kind of dumb. The damn rocket would only put the warhead out about 10,000 yds, 5 nautical miles. Hell the damn shockwave through the water would probably bust the keel of the ship! They went away back in the 80s.

Oh, well, it's for the good of the carrier. Thanks!

745 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:23:01pm

re: #737 turn

Last time I took those I collided with a wall.

I also tend to get over heated and melt down when I'm fired up.

746 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:23:32pm

re: #740 pingjockey

oh wow, what military genius came up with that brilliant idea.

747 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:23:48pm

re: #744 haakondahl
If the damn sub has got that close, y'all on the carrier have serious issues!

748 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:24:36pm

re: #718 right_wing2

Was Paul Ehrlich right about anything?

Being a libtard means never having to say you're sorry for being phenomenally, stupendously WRONG. Ever.
As a matter of fact, it's considered a plus in libtard circles.
/

749 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:25:13pm

re: #745 eschew_obfuscation

I also tend to get over heated and melt down when I'm fired up.

I just get really cerenkov about it.

750 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:25:19pm

re: #746 turn
No idea, the tactic was to come in at an angle to the sub, launch the rocket, turn the ship 180 degrees from launch angle and go to flank speed, IOW run like hell the other way!

751 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:25:20pm

re: #746 turn

oh wow, what military genius came up with that brilliant idea.

The guys on the carrier, no doubt.

Over on my side of the world, EW, we had "blip enhance". Just not on the carrier :-)

752 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:26:10pm

re: #749 turn

I just get really cerenkov about it.

Ah, I thought you had a glow when you showed up.

753 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:26:42pm

re: #748 LGoPs

Why the sarc tag, it's true!

754 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:26:46pm

re: #748 LGoPs

there are so many nuances for them, it is hard for them to see through them all.

755 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:27:01pm

Gonna go check the open thread! Later folks! Or maybe not!

756 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:27:22pm

Night all.

757 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:27:33pm

re: #753 turn

Why the sarc tag, it's true!

I stand corrected.

758 LGoPs  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:28:39pm

re: #754 mrshankly01

there are so many nuances for them, it is hard for them to see through them all.

Fortunately, unsuffistikated roobs like me see thru their bullshevik.
:)

759 turn  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:29:30pm

re: #752 haakondahl

Ah, I thought you had a glow when you showed up.

Why thank you, I'm having a bad day and that is going to curie. Ok, I"m done, ha it's been fun. Later lizards, time to go walk the lab along the American. YOu all have a wonderful weekend.

760 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:30:32pm

re: #758 LGoPs

yea, we aren't blinded by excessive devotion to post-modernistic bullsh*t

761 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:30:58pm

re: #759 turn

Why thank you, I'm having a bad day and that is going to curie. Ok, I"m done, ha it's been fun. Later lizards, time to go walk the lab along the American. YOu all have a wonderful weekend.

Nite Turn! Good weekend!

762 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:31:26pm

I've read much more disturbing things of late.

763 Randall Gross  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:34:35pm

Zombie, well done and excellent analysis and commentary. Thanks for strongly addressing the points I brought up as devil's advocate in the previous thread we discussed this in.

I knew the technocratic left would bring those up.

The left is in some ways as dysfunctional as the right on some things, this is one of them. The neo-Leninists of our day are really, really, fond of the technocracy that was spawned by Ehrlich's book and from the later Club of Rome report (limits to growth) which computer modeled some of Ehrlich's wrong predictions. (He's an entomologist, so although he's a scientist he was dabbling well outside his field.) It's important to note that Obama has consistently selected people from this neo-leninist Technocracy stripe for his positions as opposed to the Maoists and (gasp!) Stalinists....

It was the alarming coming disaster of it's day for the left, the reason for action now, does that sound familiar?

On the left and the right today we have similar looming catastrophes that must be averted by immediate action right now, so you should let x, y, or z, populist direct our actions....
For the right it's economic collapse and doom, for the left it's eco collapse and doom.

764 pbird  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:37:39pm

re: #165 Pianobuff

Does anybody remember the last book in C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy? That Hideous Strength.

For those that have read it, this scenario reminds me a little of the organization N.I.C.E.

Funny thing is, in England there is now an official group called N.I.C.E. and look at what they are all about! I believe they have a certain policy-making role in what medical procedures/drugs/etc are allowable in what circumstances for those needing (nationalized) medicine.

Something poetic there, albeit in a weird way.

Oh yes, very very prophetic book. I think of it all the time. Gives me the willies.

765 Randall Gross  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:40:04pm

re: #718 right_wing2

Was Paul Ehrlich right about anything?

He's right about entomology of butterflies, the field he should stick to...

766 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:52:52pm

I'm really surprised by this whole thing. Especially considering sterilizing the "undesirables" was something zombie her/himself said wasn't such a bad thing:

In fact, if you think about it, it's not such a cruel concept, once an appropriate and fair system of consent and semi-foolproof classification is in place.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

767 Tamron  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:55:35pm

re: #651 Clubsec

January 2008, ObamUH proclaimed, "[U]nder my plan of a cap and trade [sic] system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket ... because I'm capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, natural gas ... you name it ... whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. ... [T]hey will pass that money on to the consumers."


Hey, he's getting better! Check out this interview with Obamuh in the UK four months ago:

THE QUESTION THAT FLUMMOXED THE GREAT ORATOR

John Crace, The Guardian, Friday 3 April 2009

Barack Obama, the World's Greatest Orator (™all news organisations), didn't exactly cover himself in glory when the BBC's political editor Nick Robinson asked him a question about who was to blame for the financial crisis. Normally word perfect, Obama ummed, ahed and waffled for the best part of two and a half minutes. Here, John Crace decodes what he was really thinking ...

768 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:56:46pm

re: #710 haakondahl

Has the climate ever not been changing?

not like it is today no.

769 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:58:13pm

re: #748 LGoPs

Being a libtard means never having to say you're sorry for being phenomenally, stupendously WRONG. Ever.
As a matter of fact, it's considered a plus in libtard circles.
/

And the other end of this spectrum is immune from this how? Has Buchanan ever apologized for anything?

770 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:58:31pm

re: #768 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #710 haakondahl

yes, on the moon

771 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:59:02pm

re: #769 LudwigVanQuixote

i don't think he was being exclusive, just highlighting

772 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:00:07pm

re: #769 LudwigVanQuixote

i think the biggest issue is the way the media covers for liberal politicians when they are wrong (maybe fox does the same for conservative ones...i don't watch fox, though)

773 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:06:09pm
Impossible, you say? That must be an exaggeration or a hoax. No one in their right mind would say such things.

Yeah.....

774 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:11:00pm

Just got a chance to catch up on LGF and have been mesmerized by the depth and completeness of Zombie's reporting. My reaction to the report is ABSOLUTELY F***ing BRILLIANT! My reaction to the content and the book is that it's Classical Bad Sci-Fi, except the $%^&* is really the Science Czar at the White House.

I guess our President can surely pick some talented and level-headed advisers!

/ This isn't Kansas, Toto...

775 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:12:55pm

re: #700 eschew_obfuscation

This is one of those areas where one's value system matters when making law. I would fully support your "saving another's life" point. The sticky part comes when you ask others, who may not share your values, to pay according to your values (and mine). This is akin to "legislating morality" that so many object to and I believe we some times have to do.

I up-dinged you for a really good response that leads me to much thought. While I am obviously opposed to violating the Establishment clause, I do have a very strong sense of common social responsibility. It is also not something that is alien to our American system.

Consider the draft. The government, for the national interest calls people to risk their lives for what we hope is the common good. I do not want to debate all of the way a bad leader might abuse this, however, the notiont that there is a call, and it actually your duty to answer it, is not something I am opposed to.

In principle, this applies to taxes as well. I hate paying them - we all do. I am not going to debate all of the ways our money gets wasted by bad politicians either. However, since I like living in a place that has all sorts of things provided for me - including the common defense, police, education, my parent's social security and scientific research, I pay my taxes and try to think about those things getting funding.

So while I agree that legislating morality is a difficult and tricky proposition, at the end of the day, any social contract is already a form of legislated morality.

As to our side conversation about medicine, at the end of the day, money comes out of my pocket. If my employer paid me the money that gets spent on my benefits directly, and some of that went to taxes to pay for my health care instead, that really does not bother me. The only real question to my mind is how we maximize the money we do spend on medicine so that the most people get the best care.

I do not claim that I know the answer to this. I have not studied it enough to really even try to answer it. However, there is a certain knee jerk reaction in certain circles to the idea of government medicine that makes it sound that even considering it in principle would lead to the end of America, cats living with dogs and a return of disco amongst other apocalyptic things... I have yet to hear a compelling argument that this is the case.

Now I say this knowing full well how government foolishness can foul all sorts of things up. One could imagine a well wrought and carefully thought out system, that once established was insulated by law, from congressional shenanigans pointed at it. It is quite possible that is impossible to do. So, I would have to think very carefully about any real system that got proposed and seriously ask if it were better than what we have now.

776 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:12:59pm

re: #766 Sharmuta

I'm really surprised by this whole thing. Especially considering sterilizing the "undesirables" was something zombie her/himself said wasn't such a bad thing:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The key and overriding word in my comment is "consent." Let me repeat that sentence:

"In fact, if you think about it, it's not such a cruel concept, once an appropriate and fair system of consent and semi-foolproof classification is in place. "

What I was speaking of is allowing people in institutions to VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE permanent birth control if they want it. Which is the exact opposite of what Holdren proposes (i.e. non-consensual sterilization). So I have nothing to be ashamed of in that statement. I did NOT say that "sterilizing the 'undesirables'" "wasn't such a bad thing," as you claim.

But more importantly, I'm not the Science Czar of the United States, so my opinion is basically irrelevant. I simply present the evidence, which stands or falls on its own merit. Whatever I personally think about abortion or sterilization is not germane to the discussion. (And in case you're curious: I think adults should have the CHOICE to have an abortion or get their tubes tied IF THEY WANT. I am not in favor of either the "ban abortion" position of the far right, nor the apparent "compuslory abortion" position of Holdren's 1977 left.)

What's most curious is that you seem to have a "zombie file" of comments I made in 2004, ready to uncork at any moment!

777 mrshankly01  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:20:34pm

re: #775 LudwigVanQuixote

a government provided healthcare system is exempt from the pricing mechanisms that control for shortages and excesses. in your last paragraph you say that, "One could imagine a well wrought and carefully thought out system, that once established was insulated by law..." This is the same argument given for establishment of a system of Socialism as a whole. Socialism would work if there was some mechanism that was able to know all of the information about the socialist market system. The problem is: we do not have the capability to carefully think out a healthcare system because of the massive amounts of interactions that occur. The only thing that you can guarantee with government provided healthcare is shortage of supply or excess of demand.

778 shortshrift  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:30:31pm

As with carbon dioxide, so with "overpopulation". Carbon dioxide is not the driver of global warming. Overpopulation is not the driver of famine or starvation. Climate and population are dynamic, but stable systems. Catastrophes are local.
Both carbon dioxide and overpopulation are proxies for "capitalism" for those who wish to destroy it by controlling humanity - for its own survival, of course.
The apocalypse has always been imminent in one form or another. The Christians at least promised an afterlife...

779 Randall Gross  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:33:29pm

Pertinent wiki pages just for links and background to this discussion:

The Population Bomb

Paul Ehrlich

The Club of Rome (they are still about believe it or not...)

Someone upthread mentioned that this all sounded science fictional.... and indeed, in SF there were two schools of thought on this even almost all debating the topic were at base secular or religious humanists in viewpoint.
The secular school of support for the we are doomed if we don't do X was led by Isaac Asimov, and the Libertarian leaning school of "we can prevent doom" was led by Jerry Pournelle. Asimov wrote several articles even one on "standing room only"... Jerry wrote a series of articles on why we weren't doomed, but preventing doom required some long term thought. His collection of those articles was in "A Step Further Out".

Note that the only used copy available for this seminal work costs $94.71, pretty steep price for a decayed paperback book.

780 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:38:06pm

re: #776 zombie

I found it interesting you thought the flaw in the system was the classification of who was unfit. I thought the flaw was the violation of reproductive rights (which already includes voluntary sterilization of any consenting adult), but that's just me. Good luck with your report.

781 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:43:42pm

re: #778 shortshrift

As with carbon dioxide, so with "overpopulation". Carbon dioxide is not the driver of global warming. Overpopulation is not the driver of famine or starvation. Climate and population are dynamic, but stable systems. Catastrophes are local.
Both carbon dioxide and overpopulation are proxies for "capitalism" for those who wish to destroy it by controlling humanity - for its own survival, of course.
The apocalypse has always been imminent in one form or another. The Christians at least promised an afterlife...

You should not try to link this with AGW. There is no connection other than you don't like the science.

CO2 is a GHG.

It does make the Earth warmer.

Please tell me how it does not? In order to do this, please tell me what bands of EM CO2 absorbs and what vibrational energy is in terms of heat and temperature.

If you can answer those questions scientifically, and show that CO2 is not a problem, you get to rewrite quantum theory and win a nobel prize.

782 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:48:20pm

re: #777 mrshankly01

a government provided healthcare system is exempt from the pricing mechanisms that control for shortages and excesses. in your last paragraph you say that, "One could imagine a well wrought and carefully thought out system, that once established was insulated by law..." This is the same argument given for establishment of a system of Socialism as a whole. Socialism would work if there was some mechanism that was able to know all of the information about the socialist market system. The problem is: we do not have the capability to carefully think out a healthcare system because of the massive amounts of interactions that occur. The only thing that you can guarantee with government provided healthcare is shortage of supply or excess of demand.

However, we already have a shortage of supply and an excess of demand. There is no reason that you can not have a free market economy as a whole that gets taxed to provide certain services. We have that already too. It is called the military.

There is a giant step from saying that a government run system is not necessarily worse than our present one and suggesting that the whole country goes socialist.

783 calcajun  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:56:34pm

re: #714 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm getting pi-eyed from reading them.

Oh get real.

784 shortshrift  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 3:58:24pm

re: #781 LudwigVanQuixote

Please answer the question of consciousness. In order to do this, please tell me how chemical changes and electrical impulses create socialist thought.
If you can answer this question, and show how socialist thought is a chemical aberration, you get my vote, and what is more, you'll be a man, my son.

785 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:01:28pm

Thank you, zombie, for taking the time to do this great expose' - I'm sitting here shaking my head wondering when people will see the handwriting on the wall - that our prez is a wanna-be dictator. The people he's chosen as close associates throughout his career as a community organizer such as Ayers, Dorn, Wright, et al, should've been the red flag for his core beliefs. And now our Science Czar. I'm getting sick of the word czar.

#190 IslandLibertarian

The reason there is starvation and lack of fresh water in portions of Africa has nothing to do with overpopulation or scarcity of food and water. It is because of oppressive governments/thugs. People stood in lines for bread in the Soviet Union 50 years ago. This whole Population Bomb scare is bullshit!

Right on. Politics of fear is what libs do so well - GW being one. With them the sky is always falling. In their own words: "Never let a crisis go to waste."

786 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:08:31pm

I thought alarmism was the name of the game.

787 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:09:36pm

re: #699 doppelganglander

And people wonder why gun-toting, working-class, church-going whites are becoming more receptive to Ron Paul and his nutty friends.

I Shall Have My "Say" -

Until we get to "International Relations" - I can agree on Many Points with Rep. Paul.
Where I think HE doesn't "Get It" is the FACT that the US, since WW II, has been the Leader of what we Might Call the "West."
Rep.Paul - last I looked at a calendar, it reads 2009 NOT 1939. President Obama, same goes for you. That is all.

-S-

-S-

788 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:11:30pm

re: #784 shortshrift

Please answer the question of consciousness. In order to do this, please tell me how chemical changes and electrical impulses create socialist thought.
If you can answer this question, and show how socialist thought is a chemical aberration, you get my vote, and what is more, you'll be a man, my son.

How charming. I am alas, a physicist and not a cognitive scientist. Since AGW is a problem of physics I thought I would point out some basic physics.

If you can actually know about the science you are talking about before you opine, and say things that are simply false, you will not only be a man, but have learned some wisdom.

See, the questions I asked actually contain why CO2 is a driver of climate change. You can, well maybe you can't, but people who actually know what they are talking about can calculate the energy bands of CO2. Lo and behold, they can then measure the absorption spectra and see that the QM was actually correct.

CO2 traps IR very very well. Methane is worse.

So it turns out, as has been mentioned before, energy is conserved. When these molecules absorb that energy, they wiggle and jiggle. Now that is not the most scientific term for it, so I will be specific. The phenomenon of temperature is the direct result of molecular vibrations. If you think about that for a moment, you will see that is why you can talk about an absolute zero.

So, to put it together, CO2 absorbs solar energy and gets hot. If you have a lot of it in the atmosphere, your atmosphere gets hot as a result. Further, the more of it you have, the warmer it will get.

789 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:14:41pm

re: #788 LudwigVanQuixote

LudwigVanQuixote -

SO? Ban Carbonated Drinks? My BEER is wondering. Pray Tell.

-S-

790 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:18:02pm

re: #789 Dr. Shalit

Extend and Revise -

So Is My DIET COKE.

-S-

791 Ianmc  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:28:53pm

This explains why Obama wants to impose government-run healthcare on us. John Holdren or someone like him can decide who lives and who doesn't.

792 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:30:21pm

re: #781 LudwigVanQuixote

You should not try to link this with AGW. There is no connection other than you don't like the science.

CO2 is a GHG.

It does make the Earth warmer.

Not sure whether shortshrift meant the original comment (that you've responded) in the same way as I've read it, which is:

As with carbon dioxide, so with "overpopulation". Carbon dioxide is not the driver of global warming.

As for me, science is still working on this problem and is far from settled (not on whether CO2 is a greenhouse gas, but just how much warming is due to and can be expected from an elevated CO2 level).

What is similar to me between the topics is not the science, but the panic-spreading tactics and religious zeal shared by those few enlightened ones who know what's best for us.

793 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:32:18pm

re: #789 Dr. Shalit

LudwigVanQuixote -

SO? Ban Carbonated Drinks? My BEER is wondering. Pray Tell.

-S-

Funny... We can ban exhaling too /////

The issue with climate change and AGW is not that CO@ is bad, rather it is a question of balance.

If you have a certain atmospheric concentration of it, you will balance out at a certain mean temperature. It is not the the only factor and there are all sorts of feedback loops.

The short form is, that we have reduced the foliage (that would scrub excess CO2) while increasing CO2 output sufficiently through 100 years of industrialization, that the balance has been changed.

It is that simple.

Now for some more science on why this is an issue, consider the output of the sun. Because of it's mass and composition, even thought the sun emits light in almost all wavelengths, most of the sun's light is in the near UV, visible and IR spectrum.

Now there is a certain lock and key mechanism in QM where in order to excite a molecule you need to hit it with the right light. The bulk of our atmosphere is N2, which scatters light in these bands much more than it absorbs it. This means that much sunlight will either hit the Earth and reflect back, or, bounce around in the atmosphere and eventually bounce back out into space. It is also true that light can be absorbed by a molecule, and some of the light energy gets used to vibrate it, meaning that a lower wavelength light will be emitted. Hot water emits and absorbs IR very well for example...

Pause, why did I mention that hot water emits IR? Answer, because you can heat water up and have a lot of IR floating around...

Now, suppose on the other hand you have an atmosphere that is good at absorbing IR - like say one with a large amount of CO2, methane or water vapor? Well the sun produces a lot. Hot water will give you a lot. Where does the IR go?

It goes into those molecules that then get hot. This warms your whole planet up.

794 freetoken  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:44:36pm

re: #278 Charles

Raises the question of whether he's the best person to be advising the president on issues like climate change.

The National Academies are chartered (and were created by Lincoln) to advise the President on scientific issues. I highly doubt that Holdren would change the NAS recommendations on his own accord. Ultimately, "science advisor" is a fancy political title.

Furthermore, I am quite disappointed in Zombie for not finishing the research. At Holdren's confirmations hearings the topic of population and deciding optimum population levels was raised by one Senator. This was covered in some news items (e.g., a blurb in NYT).

The video of confirmation (joint Lubchenco and Holdren) hearings is here:
[Link: commerce.senate.gov...]

It is a long video, but I watched part of it when it first came out, so I knew where to check it for the answers. Here are the relevant parts' times:

[...]

116:10 Republican senator begins questioning him

116:43 question begins on past statements on ecocastrophe

117:15 Holdren answers,

119:45 another question (on deaths from climate change)

120:30 question on fertility

120:55 answer "I no longer think it's productive to [think about optimum populations]...."

122:00 another question on c&b of population growth, and whether it is the function of government to decide optimum population levels

122:36 answer: "No Senator I do not." [does not believe it is the role of government....]

123:28 final question: (sea level)

[...]

So indeed, Holdren has changed his mind.

As to whether Holdren is the best to advise the President on the issue of climate change... while he is not the ideal candidate in my opinion, nevertheless I count it to his advantage that as an older, mature person and scientist Holdren fully accepts that he has changed some of his opinions. It is much better to have an older person in the job who knows that opinions and ideas change, than a younger person who can be too easily swayed senior political leaders.

795 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 4:52:42pm

re: #680 LudwigVanQuixote

People certainly do have a responsibility to pay what they can. However, I have a hard time swallowing the notion that someone who can afford an needed procedure is somehow more deserving of it than someone who can not.

I would much prefer a world where certain things were done because it was the right thing to do, and not because of making a profit. And yes, it is part of my faith - that you need to help others in time of need - even strangers. My faith goes so far as to tell me that I should violate all but three of it's laws in the interest of saving another's life. So yes, saving lives is a big deal to me.

That said, it is not clear to me that our current system would provide better health care if it were socialized. It nay well be that more lives get saved if we do things the way we do them now.

But if you are going to take this to the bottom line, I would say that lives are a vastly more important consideration than dollars.

Whose dollars?

796 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:01:21pm

re: #794 freetoken

Thanks. I'll look into the video and see what I can extract from it.

797 mystry  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:04:31pm

#785 ladycatnip Czar is just, in my opinion, another layer of Government that we must pay for. If, god forbid that something goes wrong. Hang or fire the lously dog. This way Obama, or any of this minions, do not get the blame! He does have thin skin you know.

798 shortshrift  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:16:08pm

re: #788 LudwigVanQuixote

I have been to the physicist store and found some physicists who know about the sky without telling me I am making it fall.

Please do not ride your hobby horse for my benefit, grateful though I am to see you wiggle and jiggle.

799 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:20:09pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

I agree.

800 Gus  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:22:53pm

Excellent work Zombie.

I think this calls for adding to John Holdren's Wiki entry including a reference and link to the Zombie article.

801 capitalist piglet  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:31:17pm

re: #672 buzzsawmonkey

Nice, except for one thing:

You apologized to Paul Anka. He should be apologizing to us for that tune.

802 Gus  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:34:20pm

City Sees Coldest Start To Summer In 100 Years

Average High Temperatures Coldest In Decades

BOSTON -- If you think you've never seen such a cool start to the summer, you are right: It's been more than 100 years since Boston has been this cold in June.

May the coldest on record, Niwa figures show

Matt Stewart %P% 10th July 2009

Wairarapa [New Zealnd] certainly played its part in the record-breaking chill that gripped the country during May, with Martinborough plunged into gloom courtesy of a paltry 92 hours of sunshine.

Niwa senior climate scientist Georgina Griffiths said May "broke records from one end of the country to the other - it was the coldest May on record", and there was nothing much to toast in the South Wairarapa wine village, which registered 69 percent of normal sunshine hours for May - the lowest figure for the town since records began.

803 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:37:29pm

re: #520 Dianna

Stand on Zanzibar and The Sheep Look Up are both excellent books, if terrible downers. The scenarios they are based on are anything but rational, though.

Author John Brunner was a lefty of impeccable pedigree. Among other things, he wrote the words for H-Bomb Thunder, the virtual anthem of the Ban the Bomb movement aka Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. This is sung annually at the CND's giant jamboree and Cold War nostalgia fest, the Aldermaston Marches.

804 freetoken  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 5:40:30pm

re: #802 Gus 802

Gus.... what are you doing?

805 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 6:00:35pm

re: #794 freetoken

I did a search for Holdren's statements, but didn't find that video -- thanks. Seems to me that he does indeed offer an explanation and a repudiation of opinions like the ones in the book.

806 zombie  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 6:07:51pm

re: #805 Charles

I did a search for Holdren's statements, but didn't find that video -- thanks. Seems to me that he does indeed offer an explanation and a repudiation of opinions like the ones in the book.

I will have to listen to the video with my own ears and transcribe the relevant parts. We shall see exactly what he says. At this stage, I no longer trust anything except primary sources. If he well and truly disowns his statements, I will include that info as an update to the post. But if not -- well, I'll post that too.

I only wish I had better video editing capabilities. Huge video files like that really strain the RAM of my 2004-era laptop.

It'll be much later tonight or tomorrow at the earliest before I can find the time. It's a laborious process to search and then transcribe videos.

807 freetoken  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 6:08:17pm

re: #805 Charles

I suspected at the time that the Holdren/Lubchenco hearing got little attention because everyone was focused on the economic crisis and related political appointments. Tierney at the NYT did give this a small blurb, as did various environmental blogs, but the looming economic bailout overshadowed everything.

808 freetoken  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 6:12:33pm

re: #806 zombie

Yes, if I had not watched it the first time (right after the hearings) I would not have known it existed and where to look. The first 30 minutes is blank (!), the times I gave you (in minutes:seconds) should point you to the relevant parts.

I watched this originally in part to see how Holdren would manage his political baggage (of being associated with Erlich in his youth.) Also wanted to see how the GOP senators would handle the science issues.

809 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 6:16:17pm

re: #808 freetoken

The first 30 minutes is blank (!) ...

I saw that! I wonder how much money taxpayers forked out for that 30 minutes of dead air...

810 RalphShort  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 6:24:44pm

Re: 794, aka the 'Holdren apology'.

The reality is the guy is a control freak. If Obama has put this guy in Czar category (which is ridiculous whoever is there) then if Margaret Sanger were alive today she would be part of the "science advisors" as well. She believed in Eugenics and making sure the 'less desirable' were eliminated.

There should be total indignation this elitist idiot is collecting taxpayer dollars.

811 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 6:34:13pm

re: #450 EmmmieG

Are we even close to using all the solar energy we receive?

Not even the tiniest bit close.

812 Cato  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 8:21:16pm

Holdren famously lost a bet with libertarian economist Julian Simon. Simon bet that rather than scarcity, innovation would cause the price of five metals to go down over a 10 year period.

813 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 8:52:39pm

re: #812 Cato

Holdren famously lost a bet with libertarian economist Julian Simon. Simon bet that rather than scarcity, innovation would cause the price of five metals to go down over a 10 year period.

I pretty sure that was Ehrlich, not Holdren.

814 MrPaulRevere  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 9:25:30pm

I just watched the relevant video. Good for David Vitter for holding his feet to the fire. Like all Washington animals, Mr. Holdren is very talented at spinning and throwing smoke. Generally speaking, I am in favor of winking at youthful ideological indiscretions, but at some point people must be held to account for what they have said and done.

815 shortshrift  Fri, Jul 10, 2009 9:45:38pm

re: #794 freetoken

Hodren's statement, "I no longer think it is productive [to think about optimum population]", does not rise to an admission that he was wrong.
And it is very likely that he would now regard it very "productive" to think about optimum climate.

816 leftover54  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:00:32am

I'm soooo sick of this crap ! If Michelle is on 'the list' or even Ted Kennedys Aunt Tilly, then even I will be upset but if not, STFU and sit down you paranoid, Rep./W./Cheney hating, wannna re live Watergate/Woodstock,freakin' freaks ! G_d I can't stand it anymore !
"What if they were tapping your phone dude, how would ya like it then, huh ?".
Actually, I could care less. I obey the law. I don't see black helicopters piloted by Haliburton tech bots (operated by remote control by Dick Cheney from his underground bunker of evil) you freakin' meat head freakin' ....pant, pant,..
pant... WHACK JOBS ! I have the feeling Al Franken is going to be given the chance to 'shine' with this one even though he's a 'freshman'. Great - re hashed SNL skits (from their worst years at that). And I was just shutting off my monitor when I decided to click on my home town paper to see the weather forecast... and this stands out like Pelosis' eyes:
Report: Bush Surveillance Program Was Massive
I wonder how many of these freaks ever heard of Sir William Stephenson and/or the 'Room 3603" project during WWII ? The F.B.I. under Hoover (with the nod from F.D.R.) snatching U.S. mail at will, with NO authority, for the purposes of reading then resealing and forwarding on mail deemed suspicious. Congress didn't have a clue but the Dems guy, FDR, was 4 square behind it. BTW, fine with me ! These folks were some of the unsung heroes of WWII most will never know about, their contributions to the war effort was amazing. Brilliant
people that operated in 'gray' areas in ways we don't want to know about because if we did, then the enemy would know too. "Yeah but how about Nixon, huh ?"
I'm sure those doing the surveillance in the aftermath of 9/11 really cared about your politics, your pot deals or what adolecent girls/boys you were trying to lure ... you FREAKIN' LUNATICS ! ARGgggghhhhhhhh.......
'My freedoms are being trampled on...the Patriot Act, The Patriot Act - help me, help me I'm being surveilled !"
"Those that are willing to surrender their freedoms....."
"Do your part to combat Global Warming, take the bus !'
"No blood for...."
SMACK. STFU !
/been up 21 hours now...sorry...nite.
And my phone is going to start ringing around 8am - my best (Lib) friend guaranteed:
"Did ya see the headlines yet ? Did ya, huh ? huh ?
Click.
"It was MASSIVE I tell ya !"

817 Cato  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 3:52:29am

re: #813 Ringo the Gringo

Ehrlich got all the press, but Holdren was part of a group that took Ehrlich's side in the bet. Read the Wiki on Julian Simon.

818 Sacred Plants  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:14:28am

Charles/zombie -

solve a looming overpopulation crisis — that never actually materialized:

Mumbai. Shanghai. Karachi. Delhi. Istanbul. Sao Paolo. Moscow. Seoul. Beijing. Mexico City. ...

But does the Obama administration see the root cause of the population crisis looming in these corners of the globe, the lack of social security and individual freedom that turns families into pyramid schemes?

The insight that repressive schemes cannot contribute to a solution is one thing, an idea what to do about the problem in place of them would be another.

819 Aye Pod  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:30:06pm

Zombie, you seemed to be very upset about the 'cold' tone of the paper in question. No matter how emotional or even sentimental they may be as an individual human dealing with other humans, that's just how scientists write, especially when they are dealing with strategies that concern large numbers of people. It would be an odd paper indeed that stopped to emote 'appropriately' every time something which would be unpleasant from an individual's point of view were discussed. I'm betting the same is true for any study that considers humanity at a strategic level.

820 Aye Pod  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:32:42pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, I know that I am going to take a lot of heat for this, but I would like to pose this as a thought question.

Suppose, just suppose, we actually did reach a point where there were more people on the Earth than the Earth could feed. This is not utterly stupid to propose. The Earth is finite, it can only produce so much food per year.

Before we got to that point though, there would be more people on the planet than there would be potable water.

From what I have read, the "magic number" for this, following current trends - and *not* taking pollution into account is about 12 billion souls. Even if the magic number is 14 or 20 billion it does not matter to this argument. At some point, you can imagine that there are more people than resources. Yes, this is Malthusian. Calling it that does not make the facts that people need water and food - and that there is only so much on a given planet, go away.

If people can not get water, they will die. This is not arguable. If people are desperate for food and water, something so utterly basic, they have absolutely nothing to loose if they try to take it. The other option is death by dehydration or starvation. Telling them to just behave and die quietly is not a real option.

So, imagine that we are approaching that point? What is the most humane thing to do?

the problem is very simple, more mouths than food.

You can do nothing. At this point, you really will have a law of the jungle. The people with the best guns will will kill the people who want the resources and the population problem gets solved by war.

Or perhaps you can limit the amount of children that people have and try to hold the population at a sustainable level. Which is more humane? Which has less suffering?

I am not saying that we are at that point. I am not saying that I want to see that point. However, this is not an outrageous view that needs to be recanted. It is an unfortunate and unhappy reality.

Agreed.

821 proximate  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:58:51pm

re: #818 Sacred Plants

Mumbai. Shanghai. Karachi. Delhi. Istanbul. Sao Paolo. Moscow. Seoul. Beijing. Mexico City. ...

MOSCOW? Their birth rate has been so low for so long, Russia won't be a nation soon. South Korea's worse! China is substantially below replacement. Mexico is now just at replacement level. India is at 2.81 TFR and at the rate it's reducing will be below replacement in 5 years. Brazil is at 2.25, repalcement level is 2.1. Please, check statistics before posting.

822 proximate  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:02:08pm

I am shocked and saddened that Nazi ideals didn't die with them. Environmentalism is the last bastion of the most evil of Nazi ideas: Eugenics.

823 zombie  Sun, Jul 12, 2009 1:14:19pm

OK, everybody:

I finally was able to view and get a transcription of Holdren's confirmation hearings, which some of his defenders say is where he made statements disavowing his earlier views. I have now made a significant update to the original post incorporating the video and the transcript, but for completeness' sake, I'll post the full text of the update here, to make sure everyone sees it:

------------------------------------

Unfortunately, as far as I've been able to discover, Holdren has never disavowed the views he held in the 1970s and spelled out in Ecoscience and other books. In fact, he kept writing on similar topics up until quite recently.

The closest Holdren has come to retracting any of these statements was in a single sentence he spoke during his confirmation hearings. Under questioning from Senator David Vitter, Holdren did backpedal a bit concerning a different statement he made in the '70s about government-controlled population levels. Does this single sentence count as an across-the-board disavowal of every single specific recommendation he made in Ecoscience as well as in many other books and articles? My opinion is Not even close, but I'll let you decide for yourself. You can view the video of the confirmation hearings here (introductory page here), but be warned that it is an extremely long streaming video that doesn't work in all browsers, and the answer in question doesn't come until the 120th minute.

Because most people won't or can't view the entire video, here's a transcript of the relevant part, and you can decide for yourself if his statement counts as a disavowal of his quotes cited in this report:

[Starting at 120:30]


Senator David Vitter: In 1973, you encouraged "a decline in fertility well below replacement" in the United States because "280 million in 2040 is likely to be too many." What would your number for the right population in the US be today?

John Holdren: I no longer think it's productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum population of the United States. I dont think any of us know what the right answer is. When I wrote those lines in 1973, uh, I was preoccupied with the fact that many problems the United States faced appeared to be being made more difficult by the greater population growth that then prevailed. I think everyone who studies these matters understands that population growth brings some benefits and some liabilities, its a tough question to determine which will prevail in a given time period.

If you want the full context of this exchange between Vitter and Holdren, a complete transcript of their entire question-and-answer session can be found posted here.

I'm not sure just how seriously we should take a statement made by someone during what is essentially a job interview. A few words spent reassuring the interviewer that you don't really believe all those things you spent thirty years elaborating in detail -- what else should we expect? That Holdren would say, Yes, I think the government should lower the U.S. population down to 280 million? Of course he wouldn't say that during the interview, despite what he may or may not really believe internally.

But yes, it is possible that Holdren has changed his views and his philosophy. Yet we'll never know until he announces his change of heart publicly.

824 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 12, 2009 2:54:05pm

re: #823 zombie

Well, he wasn't asked specifically about the book or the apocalyptic measures it advocates, and I'd still like to hear what he has to say about those things.

But when he says, "I no longer think it's productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum population of the United States," that does bear on the issue, since the idea of "optimum population" was behind Ecoscience's draconian recommendations. When he says he thinks it's "no longer productive," that would very likely be his answer if asked directly about the book, too. It's an admission that he has changed his opinions on those issues -- probably as much admission as you'll ever get from a bureaucratic scientist.

825 Sacred Plants  Tue, Jul 14, 2009 9:04:03am

re: #821 proximate

Cities of that size remain a problem even after you scrap all the non-Islamic populations off the list due to their lack of ambition to compete in a breeding race, e. g. with respect to the risks of pandemias, struggles over resources, or oversized governments.


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