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BNP Leader Griffin: ‘Islam is a Cancer Requiring Global Chemotherapy’

World • Views: 1,880

Nick Griffin, the white supremacist leader of the far right British National Party and newly elected Member of European Parliament, is in the news again (which was surely his intent) after he told a Channel 4 reporter that “Islam is a cancer, requiring global chemotherapy.”

Griffin was echoing the words of a candidate for the Belgian Vlaams Belang party:

The BNP leader Nick Griffin has described Islam as a “cancer” that should be removed from Europe by “chemotherapy”.

In an interview with Channel 4 News, Mr Griffin, who has just been elected to the European Parliament, said there was “no place in Europe for Islam”.

He added: “Western values, freedom of speech, democracy and rights for women are incompatible with Islam, which is a cancer eating away at our freedoms and our democracy and rights for our women and something needs to be done about it”.

The BNP leader said he agreed with a candidate for the Flemish far right party, Vlaams Belang, who had declared: “We urgently need global chemotherapy against Islam to save civilisation.”

The good news in this story is that Griffin is having no success forming a coalition with other European right wing parties — which means that the BNP will probably not receive funding from the EU.

Meanwhile, the leaders of Vlaams Belang are more politically savvy than Nick “Troglodyte” Griffin; in this video VB official Philip Claeys does a pretty good impression of someone who disapproves of the Nazi-like rhetoric of their own candidate and Griffin.

And by the way, if you browse around some of the so-called “anti-jihad” blogs today, you’ll find lots of support for Griffin and his statement.

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463 comments

1 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:08:21am

Got to give him credit for the his honesty. I don't agree one percent with him, but he's more honest than some of our own politicians.

2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:08:35am

Is this fuckwit proposing that fascism is the proper medicine to combat that "cancer"?

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:11:27am

I dislike it when ideologues use code words to say they want to kill people and cause misery.

"Oh no, I didn't say I wanted to cause untold suffering and kill people. I just want to get rid of the Muslims."

/right.

4 pat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:12:44am

Islam is a dangerous cult. However racism is equally dangerous.

5 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:13:01am

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is this fuckwit proposing that fascism is the proper medicine to combat that "cancer"?

Yep.

6 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:13:42am

I agree 100% that we need to get radical islam under control. In this case I think the cure is worse than the symtoms.

7 ~Fianna  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:14:02am

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is this fuckwit proposing that fascism is the proper medicine to combat that "cancer"?

Of course. We must protect our freedom... by handing it over to him.

/f that noise.

8 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:14:29am

re: #6 VegasRick

I agree 100% that we need to get radical islam under control. In this case I think the cure is worse than the symtoms.

What this fuckwit is proposing is not a cure, but another disease.

9 John Neverbend  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:14:40am

Ironically, Griffin seems to have much in common with little squinty of Teheran when it comes to hating other religions.

10 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:16:11am

"Sackgasse"

11 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:16:46am

Radical Islam is pretty bad - but not the whole of Islam.
We can always count on radials themselves to over-state things.

12 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:18:31am

re: #11 FrogMarch

Radical Islam is pretty bad - but not the whole of Islam.
We can always count on radials themselves to over-state things.

(*whispering* ... are you too tired to post?)

:D

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:18:41am

The biggest chunk of western values is the profound respect for the individual, that all people have equal worth in the sight of God. (Or mankind, or whatever you would put there. The important part is that other people have value and worth.)

I fail to see how squishing hundreds of millions of people would advance this value.

14 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:18:50am

Whackos to the Left of me, Whackos to the Right. . . .

15 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:18:55am
freedom of speech, democracy and rights for women are incompatible with Islam

Look around, this is true, except maybe for the Sufis, who are the hippies of Islam.

16 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:19:17am

A movie lizards might want to see.

[Link: www.thestoning.com...]

17 J.D.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:19:32am

re: #14 ggt

Whackos to the Left of me, Whackos to the Right. . . .

Here I am... stuck in the middle with you.

18 researchok  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:19:45am

Nick Griffin is a longtime bigot and no amount of dancing can change his history.

We all have biases and prejuduces, to be sure. That is a part of human nature. That said, how we respond to our biases and prejudices speaks volumes as to who we are.

Most of us are shamed by our lesser selves and we go out of our way to fight the uglier instincts- and that is a very good thing. Nick Griffin and the like refused to be shamed by their own bigotry, choosing instead to camouflage their prejudices.

You can put an ape in a tuxedo and you can even teach the ape to dance and maybe even use a knife and fork. In the end however, the only one who believes the tuxedo camouflages reality is the ape himself.

Nick Griffin and the rest of them are apes in tuxedos and who support him and his ideas are apes in tuxedos as well.

19 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:20:12am

re: #13 EmmmieG

There is a profound difference between Muslims and Islam, & we need to bear this in mind always.

20 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:20:19am

re: #17 J.D.

Here I am... stuck in the middle with you.

I wish we could do John Galt.

21 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:20:27am

re: #16 FrogMarch

A movie lizards might want to see.

[Link: www.thestoning.com...]

Then again, I hear the movie's true story of breath-taking violence is hard to take.

22 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:21:24am

re: #19 Ojoe

There is a profound difference between Muslims and Islam, & we need to bear this in mind always.

Agreed, but oppression will not bring the people out of darkness. Never has.

23 pat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:21:50am

Islam as a whole is inherently evil. Its misogynistic beliefs, compounded with its obsessive intrusion into peoples lives, its dogmatic hatred of other religions and democracy, sharia, preached violence, and the need and constant pressure to subsume government amount to facist barbarity. The antithesis of Western enlightenment.

24 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:22:07am

re: #22 EmmmieG

True also.

25 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:22:34am

re: #12 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(*whispering* ... are you too tired to post?)

:D

radials? wtf? I must be tired. Actually - I am tired.

26 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:23:11am

re: #23 pat

Islam as a whole is inherently evil. Its misogynistic beliefs, compounded with its obsessive intrusion into peoples lives, its dogmatic hatred of other religions and democracy, sharia, preached violence, and the need and constant pressure to subsume government amount to facist barbarity. The antithesis of Western enlightenment.

Stuck in the stone age and proud of it.

27 pat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:23:16am

re: #15 Ojoe

Sufis are dogmatic religious bigots.

28 albusteve  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:24:16am

of course he fails to explain how this 'treatment' will be applied...what exactly is his intention?....it's all just dangerous rhetoric that cannot be backed up with any action...or can it?

29 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:24:22am

re: #23 pat

Islam as a whole is inherently evil. Its misogynistic beliefs, compounded with its obsessive intrusion into peoples lives, its dogmatic hatred of other religions and democracy, sharia, preached violence, and the need and constant pressure to subsume government amount to facist barbarity. The antithesis of Western enlightenment.

I don't think such a blanket statement is true. IMHO, Islam needs to come out of the dark ages. I think there are a lot of Muslims who also believe this. Christianity 500 years ago wasn't all love and hugs either.

30 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:24:33am

re: #25 FrogMarch

radials? wtf? I must be tired. Actually - I am tired.

Don't worry ... you didn't quite roger the tread.

/...*manical cackling*

31 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:24:55am

Yes, well, Griffin is a carbuncle on the ass of the EU.

32 researchok  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:25:09am

re: #23 pat

Islam as a whole is inherently evil. Its misogynistic beliefs, compounded with its obsessive intrusion into peoples lives, its dogmatic hatred of other religions and democracy, sharia, preached violence, and the need and constant pressure to subsume government amount to facist barbarity. The antithesis of Western enlightenment.

The issue of what Islam is in it's current iteration is a separate discussion.

How we deal with the Muslim community is the real issue- and that speaks as to who we are and what are values are.

I for one agree that Islamists and Islamioc radicals pose a threat to our society and culture. That said, it bears recalling that Islam is defined by a very few and not the many.

33 pbird  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:25:20am

re: #30 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Don't worry ... you didn't quite roger the tread.

/...*manical cackling*

Um, maniacal?

34 albusteve  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:25:32am

re: #29 ggt

I don't think such a blanket statement is true. IMHO, Islam needs to come out of the dark ages. I think there are a lot of Muslims who also believe this. Christianity 500 years ago wasn't all love and hugs either.

where are moderate Muslims?...they need to stand up and be heard

35 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:25:38am

re: #27 pat

Sufis are dogmatic religious bigots.

How so?

36 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:25:43am

re: #27 pat

Suffis are by for the most moderate strain of Islam. They generally don't accept Jihad as an obligation. Very little (almost none) terrorism comes from the Sufis.

37 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:26:18am

re: #34 albusteve

where are moderate Muslims?...they need to stand up and be heard

Protesting, well, dying, in Iran?

38 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:26:38am

re: #33 pbird

Um, maniacal?

It's contagious. /Don't drink the frog-water.

39 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:26:38am

re: #31 MandyManners

Yes, well, Griffin is a carbuncle on the ass of the EU.

Actually, I was thinking of the title an acquaintance gave a college paper many, (many, many, many) moons ago.

"Chemical Warfare: A festering boil on the buttocks of mankind."

40 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:27:04am

re: #33 pbird

Um, maniacal?

uh oh, ... seems I've turned maniacal-depressive !

41 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:27:56am

re: #38 FrogMarch

It's contagious. /Don't drink the frog-water.

I'm DOOMED!

42 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:28:24am

re: #27 pat

Sufis are dogmatic religious bigots.

I would love to see your justification for that statement.

43 pbird  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:28:30am

re: #38 FrogMarch

OK

44 albusteve  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:29:01am

re: #37 ggt

Protesting, well, dying, in Iran?

I have no clue....they resist the oppressive Mullahs....do they want to disarm?...do they support jihad?...would they annihilate Israel if they could?

45 spudly  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:29:16am

re: #29 ggt

Even the moderates are forced to admit that the only allowed punishment for apostates is DEATH. Islam is not the ROP, it's fundamentally violent. To be fair the Old Testament is much the same, I think the difference is that there has been no reformation in Islam to moderate it.

BTW, being against a set of ideas (Islam) is not racist. Racism requires that the victim be persecuted for an indelible trait. Not saying that suborning murder is OK, it's not, but it's not racism—calling Arabs a cancer would be racist.

46 jaunte  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:32:17am

re: #31 MandyManners

Yes, well, Griffin is a carbuncle on the ass of the EU.

Carbuncle emissions are taxing.

47 Westward Ho  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:32:54am

Good lord Nick is channeling the "Camel Prophet".

48 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:32:55am

re: #44 albusteve

I have no clue....they resist the oppressive Mullahs....do they want to disarm?...do they support jihad?...would they annihilate Israel if they could?

A few days ago, someone (Kenneth?) posted a link to historical data/analysis of the Persian mindset -- as distinct from the Islamist mindset held by many (most?) in the theocracy.

Seems the Persians themselves are ambivalent re Israel - live and let live

49 pat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:35:29am

I have linked above an article on Sufism. By sheer coincidence it is dated today! It is topic I researched years ago, so the article comes as a surprise to me.

50 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:36:33am

re: #48 pre-Boomer Marine brat

A few days ago, someone (Kenneth?) posted a link to historical data/analysis of the Persian mindset -- as distinct from the Islamist mindset held by many (most?) in the theocracy.

Seems the Persians themselves are ambivalent re Israel - live and let live

That's really at the core of what's going on in Iran.
Persian culture v. Islamic culture.

Last 30 years Islamists have brutally suppressed the Persian.

51 albusteve  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:36:46am

re: #48 pre-Boomer Marine brat

A few days ago, someone (Kenneth?) posted a link to historical data/analysis of the Persian mindset -- as distinct from the Islamist mindset held by many (most?) in the theocracy.

Seems the Persians themselves are ambivalent re Israel - live and let live


that will get you far in this world....hopefully Iranian theocracy has not erased all decency over there

52 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:37:07am

Before getting on with stuff I have to do here ...

All of us should keep in mind that, historically, Islam is not a unified whole.

The contemporary radical, Salafiist, Qutbist, Islamists try to make it seem so.

53 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:38:36am

re: #45 spudly

The need to believe in something is a fundamental aspect and problem of human existence. Every human being must believe in something.

So, I believe I will have another piece of apple pie, Allah mode, with ice cream.

54 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:39:02am

re: #52 pre-Boomer Marine brat

They do a bang up job of blowing each other up!
BTW, morning all. I have been given radioactive glucose and stuffed in a tube first thing this morning. How's y'alls day going!

55 albusteve  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:39:27am

re: #53 shiek al beif salami

The need to believe in something is a fundamental aspect and problem of human existence. Every human being must believe in something.

So, I believe I will have another piece of apple pie, Allah mode, with ice cream.

ha!

56 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:39:57am

re: #54 pingjockey

They do a bang up job of blowing each other up!
BTW, morning all. I have been given radioactive glucose and stuffed in a tube first thing this morning. How's y'alls day going!

Some people have all the fun!

Hey Ping!

57 ~Fianna  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:40:59am

re: #23 pat

Islam as a whole is inherently evil. Its misogynistic beliefs, compounded with its obsessive intrusion into peoples lives, its dogmatic hatred of other religions and democracy, sharia, preached violence, and the need and constant pressure to subsume government amount to facist barbarity. The antithesis of Western enlightenment.

I don't believe that. I think if you look at what's going on in a lot of Islamic countries now, you're starting to see something that looks a lot like our Reformation.

It doesn't get a lot of play here, but there has been a push for women's rights, particularly (that's my issue, so that's what I'm most aware of) in Afghanistan for several years before 2001.

The flip side to that is that the violence is going to get worse, at least briefly, in response to both internal and external pressure to modernize. The only real difference between Islamofascism and our current so-called "culture war" is merely one of scale - we've developed stronger social strictures against killing people for ideology over the last 500 years, but our path from 1066 to 1776 and beyond wasn't strewen with roses and hugs, either. (cf: "Bloody" Mary, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Hugeonot wars, lynchings...)

58 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:41:00am

re: #56 jcm
Mornin'! Just got home and got some food! What I really hate about these tests in the morning is no coffee! I get grumpy if I can't have coffee!

59 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:41:05am

re: #54 pingjockey

They do a bang up job of blowing each other up!
BTW, morning all. I have been given radioactive glucose and stuffed in a tube first thing this morning. How's y'alls day going!

*gasp*
You've been radioactively glued closed !

/gotta go for awhile -- again, very best wishes re the test results!

60 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:41:22am

re: #29 ggt

I don't think such a blanket statement is true. IMHO, Islam needs to come out of the dark ages. I think there are a lot of Muslims who also believe this. Christianity 500 years ago wasn't all love and hugs either.

..but it's roots and message is peaceful. Islam's is not.

61 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:41:40am

re: #59 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Hahahaha!

62 Mad Al-Jaffee  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:42:04am

re: #30 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Don't worry ... you didn't quite roger the tread.

/...*manical cackling*

Has this been a Good Year for you?

63 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:42:27am

BBL

(ping ... swill coffee in bliss, my friend!)

64 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:42:34am

re: #45 spudly

Even the moderates are forced to admit that the only allowed punishment for apostates is DEATH.

Then how do you explain the fact that there are thousands of apostate Muslims in the US who are not living under a sentence of death? If Islam is "fundamentally violent," shouldn't those people all be dead?

If there is no possibility of moderation, how are those apostates able to live out in the open?

BTW, being against a set of ideas (Islam) is not racist. Racism requires that the victim be persecuted for an indelible trait. Not saying that suborning murder is OK, it's not, but it's not racism—calling Arabs a cancer would be racist.

Nick Griffin is a stone-cold racist, by any definition of the word.

65 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:42:40am

re: #60 astronmr20
New Testament is peaceful, for the most part. The Old Testament doesn't have a whole lot of turn the other cheek.

66 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:43:11am

re: #55 albusteve

An Allah mode pie is one that is overheated, with the top crust sliced off.

67 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:43:56am

The question is whether it's "Islam" that is the threat, or just "radical" Islam, or just some Islamic individuals, or some scum that pretends to be Islamic. Whatever.

And with any threat, you can kill it, or weaken it, or convert it to friendship, or coexist with it at arm's length.

Or submit (succumb) to it.

There, have I outlined all the choices?

So, what is the situation?

Whichever of these it is, I think we need to fight back aggressively, realizing that even our finest technological and political weapons are blunt instruments, and that's just the way it's gonna be. And if those standing in the position of becoming collateral damage don't like it, they need to take much more active steps on their own behalf, to clean out the elements (sic) that do threaten us, before the hammer comes down, as it will.

The End.

68 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:44:47am

re: #44 albusteve

I have no clue....they resist the oppressive Mullahs....do they want to disarm?...do they support jihad?...would they annihilate Israel if they could?

Do you want to disarm? Are you referring to their nuclear ambitions?

69 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:44:54am

re: #66 shiek al beif salami

An Allah mode pie is one that is overheated, with the top crust sliced off.

With a "best used by" date of 799 AD.

70 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:45:19am

re: #60 astronmr20

..but it's roots and message is peaceful. Islam's is not.

I think that is a matter of interpretation.

71 albusteve  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:45:47am

re: #68 ggt

Do you want to disarm? Are you referring to their nuclear ambitions?


yes

72 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:46:17am

re: #70 ggt

I think that is a matter of interpretation.

No, really, it isn't.

Islam is peaceful only to adherents.

It is quite otherwise to anyone else, even the dhimmi Jews and Christians.

73 Tarkus289  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:46:36am

I will not take credit for this, because I have heard it many times before, but the best hope for radical islam to be defeated will be when muslim women finally decide enough is enough and take a stand against the men, and we all know that the men are afraid of the women, and that is one of the reasons they keep them oppressed.

74 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:47:09am

re: #23 pat

Islam as a whole is inherently evil. Its misogynistic beliefs, compounded with its obsessive intrusion into peoples lives, its dogmatic hatred of other religions and democracy, sharia, preached violence, and the need and constant pressure to subsume government amount to facist barbarity. The antithesis of Western enlightenment.

I wouldn't take it that far. The westward creep of sharia law scares me too but calling Islam "inherently evil" borders upon hyperbole. The majority of Muslims I've known and worked with have been perfectly benign.

As to the topic of the article, Sharia law scares me, but fascism scares me more.

75 JarHeadLifer  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:47:25am

When political correctness (and fear see: Theo Van Gogh) keeps normal people from speaking out against the atrocities perpetrated by Islamic zealots, all that's left is nutbags like this moron.

In many ways, the fact that this guy even has a platform is a unintended consequence from the campaign of "tolerance" by people who claim to be so open minded and diverse.

76 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:47:26am

Death to spiders! Ewww Ewww Ewww! When did I say they could move into my blueberry bushes!

/This isn't a metaphor. I have spiders in my bushes, and I also have the heebie jeebies at the moment.

77 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:47:35am

re: #67 itellu3times

The question is whether it's "Islam" that is the threat, or just "radical" Islam, or just some Islamic individuals, or some scum that pretends to be Islamic. Whatever.

And with any threat, you can kill it, or weaken it, or convert it to friendship, or coexist with it at arm's length.

Or submit (succumb) to it.

Any radical belief system is a threat, IMHO. If we just focus on one set of whackos we become vunerable to another.

There, have I outlined all the choices?

So, what is the situation?

Whichever of these it is, I think we need to fight back aggressively, realizing that even our finest technological and political weapons are blunt instruments, and that's just the way it's gonna be. And if those standing in the position of becoming collateral damage don't like it, they need to take much more active steps on their own behalf, to clean out the elements (sic) that do threaten us, before the hammer comes down, as it will.

The End.

78 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:47:51am

re: #65 pingjockey

New Testament is peaceful, for the most part. The Old Testament doesn't have a whole lot of turn the other cheek.

No, but the Old Testament is elitist and rational, and does not threaten everyone else wholesale.

79 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:48:14am

re: #73 Tarkus289

I am still afraid of Gloria Stonebreaker, who pounded the crap out of me when I tried to beat her in a game of tetherball back in the third grade.

80 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:48:16am

re: #76 EmmmieG
The spiders will eat the bugs that want to eat your blueberries!

81 jorline  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:48:42am

re: #65 pingjockey

New Testament is peaceful, for the most part. The Old Testament doesn't have a whole lot of turn the other cheek.

How are ya ping?

I agree...even your own people, touch the Ark of the Covenant and you're toast.

82 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:49:02am

re: #80 pingjockey

The spiders will eat the bugs that want to eat your blueberries!

I know that, but I just didn't walk through the bug nests. Ewwwww.

83 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #78 itellu3times
That is true, unless you happen to be an enemy of the Israelites!

84 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:49:30am

re: #67 itellu3times

The question is whether it's "Islam" that is the threat, or just "radical" Islam, or just some Islamic individuals, or some scum that pretends to be Islamic. Whatever.

And with any threat, you can kill it, or weaken it, or convert it to friendship, or coexist with it at arm's length.

Or submit (succumb) to it.

There, have I outlined all the choices?

So, what is the situation?

Whichever of these it is, I think we need to fight back aggressively, realizing that even our finest technological and political weapons are blunt instruments, and that's just the way it's gonna be. And if those standing in the position of becoming collateral damage don't like it, they need to take much more active steps on their own behalf, to clean out the elements (sic) that do threaten us, before the hammer comes down, as it will.

The End.

I'll try this again.

I think any radical belief system is a threat. When we focus on only one, we become vunerable to another.

85 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:49:45am

re: #83 pingjockey

That is true, unless you happen to be an enemy of the Israelites!

Well and good, that.

86 Tarkus289  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:49:59am

re: #79 shiek al beif salami

Wouldn't it be ironic if she was a member here and read that.

87 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:50:44am

re: #65 pingjockey

New Testament is peaceful, for the most part. The Old Testament doesn't have a whole lot of turn the other cheek.

BUt if you want to compare the Old Test. to the violence in teh Koran, the difference is pretty stark.

(BTW, I am not defending the racist Griffin...)

Let me explain. In the O.T., calls for war or violence by God were very specific to certain situations, and had a specific term with a specific goal. For instance, Jericho. In the Koran, all calls for violence were open-ended. I.E. "fight them wherever you find them," and the general calls to slay unbelievers forever.

Muhammed led a lot of offensives on his own, and the Koran became increasingly violent if you follow it chronologically (from cover to cover it is not in chronological order, which can be confusing). After his death, the first several leaders that emerged were all assasinated, Aisha died at the hands of other Muslims, and bloody war even within Islam had begun and continues to this day.

Yes, Charles, a religion is whatever it's follower wants to make of it. Many many Muslims choose the peaceful path for their lives, but there are enough that follow Muhammed's teachings closely enough to cause a hell of a lot of suffering in the world every day.

88 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:50:46am

re: #52 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Before getting on with stuff I have to do here ...

All of us should keep in mind that, historically, Islam is not a unified whole.

The contemporary radical, Salafiist, Qutbist, Islamists try to make it seem so.

Yes, and many people see that form of Islam as the whole of Islam. It is not, and it doesn't speak for all of Islam.

89 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:50:59am

re: #84 ggt

I'll try this again.

I think any radical belief system is a threat. When we focus on only one, we become vunerable to another.

Of course, what we focus on is our own system.

In any martial arts, the first thing is keeping one's balance.

90 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:51:00am

re: #81 jorline
Doin' fair to middlin' as granpa would say. Supposed to be 97 here in eastern WA today, so we're gonna do fresh potato salad and burgers later. Jump in the pool, that kind of stuff!

91 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:51:23am

re: #85 itellu3times
No doubt!

92 pingjockey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:52:29am

BBIAB..nap time is calling. Got the ac in the bedroom on and didn't sleep for crap last night. Y'all play nice.

93 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:52:39am

re: #88 iceweasel

Yes, and many people see that form of Islam as the whole of Islam. It is not, and it doesn't speak for all of Islam.

The radicals of any belief want to be dominant.

94 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:53:00am

re: #86 Tarkus289

I feel a lot better just getting that out in the open, and if she does read it, maybe the healing process can begin.

/gag

95 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:53:06am

re: #92 pingjockey

BBIAB..nap time is calling. Got the ac in the bedroom on and didn't sleep for crap last night. Y'all play nice.

Have a nice nap!

96 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:53:09am

re: #93 FurryOldGuyJeans

The radicals of any belief want to be dominant G-d.

FTFY

97 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:54:08am

re: #93 FurryOldGuyJeans

The radicals of any belief want to be dominant.

Some just want to be left alone, crazed little sects of all kinds are common to all religions.

98 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:54:24am

re: #45 spudly

Even the moderates are forced to admit that the only allowed punishment for apostates is DEATH. Islam is not the ROP, it's fundamentally violent. To be fair the Old Testament is much the same, I think the difference is that there has been no reformation in Islam to moderate it.

BTW, being against a set of ideas (Islam) is not racist. Racism requires that the victim be persecuted for an indelible trait. Not saying that suborning murder is OK, it's not, but it's not racism—calling Arabs a cancer would be racist.

Islam is not a race, true buit, Griffin does not like anyone who is not a white Christian.

99 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:54:25am

re: #84 ggt

I'll try this again.

I think any radical belief system is a threat. When we focus on only one, we become vunerable to another.

I'll go with that. I'm not afraid of religions, only their most racial followers :) And in every case the radical followers turn out not to be representative of the religion as a whole. and to do a diservice to the good and thoughtful people who make up the majority of that religion's adherents.

100 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:54:50am

re: #97 itellu3times

Sure, but none have the daily consistency of body counts like Islam.

101 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:55:17am

re: #93 FurryOldGuyJeans

The radicals of any belief want to be dominant.

Totally agree; pls see my 99.

102 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:56:50am

re: #99 iceweasel

I'll go with that. I'm not afraid of religions, only their most racial followers :)

!

RADICAL! wow, major PIMF, sorry folks. I did spellcheck and hit the wrong word. Very cringeworthy!

103 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:57:34am

re: #100 astronmr20

Sure, but none have the daily consistency of body counts like Islam.

T'is true, and thus this thread.

I've said many times, Islam has a long tradition of being ruled by its most bloodthirsty elements, anyone who wants to be peaceful is threatened, or at least overruled, by the "few" radicals, making the whole seem like the real threat. This is a very clever strategy, in game theory terms. Only, it does put the whole thing at risk.

We shall see how it plays out.

104 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:57:35am

re: #102 iceweasel

!

RADICAL! wow, major PIMF, sorry folks. I did spellcheck and hit the wrong word. Very cringeworthy!

Both work.... ;-)

105 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:57:39am

I have no use for extremists of any type ... even when they appear to agree with some of my own beliefs. Extremists always have a dark side. And those who pretend that isn't true will eventually be on the wrong side of the extremists' ire.

106 Steffan  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:57:51am
And by the way, if you browse around some of the so-called “anti-jihad” blogs today, you’ll find lots of support for Griffin and his statement.

Sorry, Charles, I ain't that much of a masochist.

That's also why I don't lurk around DKos or DU.

107 NelsFree  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:57:54am

re: #54 pingjockey

I have been given radioactive glucose and stuffed in a tube first thing this morning.

Sweet!
/h

108 Christene  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:57:59am

Don't care who said it,..I couldn't agree w/him more!

109 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:58:12am

re: #99 iceweasel

I'll go with that. I'm not afraid of religions, only their most racial followers :) And in every case the radical followers turn out not to be representative of the religion as a whole. and to do a diservice to the good and thoughtful people who make up the majority of that religion's adherents.

And it's the most radical ones who try to make themselves the public faces of their respective religions, be it OBL, the Iranian Mullahs, or Dobson and Hagee.

110 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:58:35am

re: #102 iceweasel

!

RADICAL! wow, major PIMF, sorry folks. I did spellcheck and hit the wrong word. Very cringeworthy!

Whew!

111 spudly  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:59:03am

re: #64 Charles

Then how do you explain the fact that there are thousands of apostate Muslims in the US who are not living under a sentence of death? If Islam is "fundamentally violent," shouldn't those people all be dead?

If there is no possibility of moderation, how are those apostates able to live out in the open?

That is a poor argument. Being required by religion to do something doesn't mean it WILL happen, just that the adherents would like it to happen. Honor killing happens (unfortunately) throughout the Western world, for example. The language in the Qur'an is explicit about apostates.

In the case of the West/US, the moderation is imposed on them from a 3d party, our laws.

I'm not saying that all Muslims will kill apostates, I'm saying their religion tells them to. Not the same. The Catholic Church tells people not to use birth control, that doesn't mean Catholics always (or even usually in the US) obey.

It's easier to moderate when the theology is not so clear, however. The Catholic thing is a papal directive, so is more like an Islamic Fatwa and open to some debate I imagine. If the Bible said flat out "no birth control" people disobeying would be in a tougher theological position, no?

Nick Griffin is a stone-cold racist, by any definition of the word.

He can be a racist without his hatred of Islam being racist, the two are not the same. Hitchens describes himself, for example as an "anti-theist." Being against all religions does not make him a racist. Religions are ideas. I don't have a single word for "hatred of a religion" but it's not "racism" technically since religion is not race.

Race is something you are born with and cannot change, period. An indelible trait. I hate (yes hate) Nazis, for example. That's not racism because Nazis are not a race.

112 Mr. E. Train  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:59:13am

While I believe that Islam is the root cause for most of the ugliness and evil that comes out of Muslim dominate nations, the answer can not, must not be the advocacy for genocide that these nuts seem to be for. The problem isnt Muslims, its Islamic ideology. We have to find a way to break the meme of Islamic supremacy without harming Muslim people.

113 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:00:31am

re: #110 debutaunt

Whew!

God, SO awful...I'm sorry!

114 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:00:43am

re: #112 Mr. E. Train

While I believe that Islam is the root cause for most of the ugliness and evil that comes out of Muslim dominate nations, the answer can not, must not be the advocacy for genocide that these nuts seem to be for. The problem isnt Muslims, its Islamic ideology. We have to find a way to break the meme of Islamic supremacy without harming Muslim people.

"This lizardoid's name does not seem to exist in the LGF repository."

115 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:00:49am

re: #111 spudly

Additionally:

1. Catholics don't try to force me to follow their rules.

2. Catholics don't kill members of their faith who try to leave.

Big differences. (Also, you could put many, many different religions in here.)

116 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:00:52am

re: #108 Christene

That Islam is a cancer? It requires Chemo?

117 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:01:34am

re: #112 Mr. E. Train

Dude, how did you do that? Is is like, a cloak of invisibility?

118 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:01:48am

re: #100 astronmr20

Sure, but none have the daily consistency of body counts like Islam.

In this century.

119 Tarkus289  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:02:25am

Oriana Fallaci interviewing Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979

Oriana Fallaci- I still have to ask you a lot of things. About the "chador", for example, I was obliged to wear it in order to come and interview, Iranian women are obliged to wear it. [...] I am not only referring to the dress but to what it represents, I mean the apartheid Iranian women have been forced into after the revolution. They cannot study at the university with men, they cannot work with men, they cannot swim in a swimming-pool with men. They have to do it apart, wearing their "chador", how can you swim wearing a "chador"?

Ayatollah Khomeini- This doesn't concern you, our customs do not concern you. If you don't like the islamic dress you are not obliged to wear it, since it is for young women and respectable ladies.
OF- This is very kind of you, Imam, then I'm going to get rid immediately of this stupid medieval rag. There !

120 dmandman  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:02:35am

re: #116 jcm

unfortunately he may be implying Nuclear Medicine or Radical amputation....yuck

121 Shug  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:02:59am

Hitler is back

122 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:03:06am

re: #103 itellu3times

T'is true, and thus this thread.

I've said many times, Islam has a long tradition of being ruled by its most bloodthirsty elements, anyone who wants to be peaceful is threatened, or at least overruled, by the "few" radicals, making the whole seem like the real threat. This is a very clever strategy, in game theory terms. Only, it does put the whole thing at risk.

I look to the geography in which Islam was created. I think it took that type of leader to keep a people strong in the desert. The current crop of leaders needs to learn that they are no longer subject to the harshness of the desert.

We shall see how it plays out.

123 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:03:30am

re: #114 debutaunt

"This lizardoid's name does not seem to exist in the LGF repository."

Karma: 450
Mr. E. Train

When they're done building the space elevator Im out'a here man, gonna blow this soda stand! See ya on Alpha Centari...

(Logged in)
Registered since: Jun 15, 2004 at 7:58 pm
No. of comments posted: 1,567
No. of links posted: 6

124 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:03:31am

re: #111 spudly

That is a poor argument. Being required by religion to do something doesn't mean it WILL happen, just that the adherents would like it to happen.

You may say it's a "poor argument," but by admitting that Muslims can and do choose not to follow the more extreme fundamentalist dictates of Islam, you're actually agreeing with my point. Choosing not to practice extremist dogma is what we call "moderation."

125 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:04:01am

re: #108 Christene

Don't care who said it,..I couldn't agree w/him more!

With whom do you agree?

126 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:04:24am

re: #120 dmandman

unfortunately he may be implying Nuclear Medicine or Radical amputation....yuck

Clarifying... before....

127 NelsFree  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:04:29am

re: #57 ~Fianna

Dear Fianna (and such a lovely name, too),

I respect your ability to hold your "belief" of Islam and basically peaceful. Others, like myself, have taken time to study the Koran, the Sunnah (biography of Mo) and the Hadith (sayings and stories about Mo). It is my opinion that, if you take some time to read up on Islam, your opinion may change. Please read up on it.

Love,
NelsFree

128 spudly  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:04:53am

Hirsi Ali points out that away from Arabic speaking countries, Islam has a different flavor, frequently at odds with the Qur'an in specifics. The idea is that since they people there don't actually understand the Qur'an (they cannot actually read it since they don't read/speak Arabic), they have a less dogmatic view of what it tells them.

The whole idea of the Muslim Brotherhood in those parts was partially to make the people literate in Arabic, then the fundamentalism comes naturally since it's built-in to the religion.

It's certainly fair to say that all MUslim sects are "fundamentalist" if you use the same criteria used to define Christians that way. Literalism, etc.

I don't like any of it, though I'd not go as far as Hitchens, I'm merely an atheist.

129 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:05:32am

re: #105 _RememberTonyC

I have no use for extremists of any type ... even when they appear to agree with some of my own beliefs. Extremists always have a dark side. And those who pretend that isn't true will eventually be on the wrong side of the extremists' ire.

It's true. It's in the nature of extremist organisations to eventually eat their own.

Especially fascists. Fascists have to create an 'enemy without',--it helps build up national identity, and they trade in nationalism-- and they have to consolidate their internal power by talking about the 'enemy within'.

If the enemies do not exist, they need to create them.

Same holds true of extremists over-all, IMO. Such movements are inherently cannibalistic. They kill and eat their own.

130 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:05:48am

re: #108 Christene

Don't care who said it,..I couldn't agree w/him more!

Griffin is advocating genocide.

You realize that?

131 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:06:01am

re: #119 Tarkus289

Oriana Fallaci interviewing Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979

Oriana Fallaci- I still have to ask you a lot of things. About the "chador", for example, I was obliged to wear it in order to come and interview, Iranian women are obliged to wear it. [...] I am not only referring to the dress but to what it represents, I mean the apartheid Iranian women have been forced into after the revolution. They cannot study at the university with men, they cannot work with men, they cannot swim in a swimming-pool with men. They have to do it apart, wearing their "chador", how can you swim wearing a "chador"?

Ayatollah Khomeini- This doesn't concern you, our customs do not concern you. If you don't like the islamic dress you are not obliged to wear it, since it is for young women and respectable ladies.
OF- This is very kind of you, Imam, then I'm going to get rid immediately of this stupid medieval rag. There !

I loved her!

132 NelsFree  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:06:15am

re: #100 astronmr20

Sure, but none have the daily consistency of body counts like Islam.

[Link: www.thereligionofpeace.com...]

133 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:06:15am

re: #115 EmmmieG

Additionally:

1. Catholics don't try to force me to follow their rules.

2. Catholics don't kill members of their faith who try to leave.

Big differences. (Also, you could put many, many different religions in here.)

Again, in this century. Actually, I know some current Catholics who wish we could turn back the clock.

I don't think comparisons are helpful.

134 Tarkus289  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:06:33am

Hate to leave during an interesting thread, but I have to. I look forward to catching up later.

135 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:06:58am

re: #133 ggt

Again, in this century. Actually, I know some current Catholics who wish we could turn back the clock.

I don't think comparisons are helpful.

Good point. England got pretty mashed up during the reigns of Henry VIII's children.

136 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:07:25am

re: #132 NelsFree

Yep.

137 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:07:46am

re: #64 Charles

Apostate Muslims are not killed in the U.S. because it is against the law here. And in a free market of religious ideas, killing apostates tends to scare aware potential converts.

But in countries where apostate killing is winked upon, it does take place. We hear about it in only few high profile cases, but it happens all too often in towns and villages where there are no Intercontinental Hotel bars and CNN reporters.

138 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:08:43am

re: #135 EmmmieG

Good point. England got pretty mashed up during the reigns of Henry VIII's children.

The Inquisition wasn't all that peaceful either.

139 pat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:09:00am

I trust you all found the essay on Sufism "enlightening".

140 spudly  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:09:22am

re: #124 Charles

You may say it's a "poor argument," but by admitting that Muslims can and do choose not to follow the more extreme fundamentalist dictates of Islam, you're actually agreeing with my point. Choosing not to practice extremist dogma is what we call "moderation."

Certainly, I was talking about Islamic sects, and Islam as a set of ideas. Had I meant "Muslims" I would have said so.

Muslims are people that self-identify as such, and they can be just going through the motions and actually atheists in reality. Islam, OTOH, is what the various sects say it is.

141 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:10:04am

re: #137 shiek al beif salami

Apostate Muslims are not killed in the U.S. because it is against the law here. And in a free market of religious ideas, killing apostates tends to scare aware potential converts.

But in countries where apostate killing is winked upon, it does take place. We hear about it in only few high profile cases, but it happens all too often in towns and villages where there are no Intercontinental Hotel bars and CNN reporters.

I don't deny that in more backward parts of the world, the killing of apostates does happen. How could I deny it? I've posted many examples of it here. But my point stands -- if Islam itself was "fundamentally violent," there should be no place in the world where apostates would be safe.

142 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:11:09am

re: #138 ggt

The Inquisition wasn't all that peaceful either.

On average, even if you just take recent numbers, more people are killed each year by Islamists than all 350 years of the Spanish inquisition combined.

143 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:11:33am

re: #135 EmmmieG

Good point. England got pretty mashed up during the reigns of Henry VIII's children.

I think my concern is that we lose the point when we start comparing belief systems. There are whackos of all flavors out there we need to be concerned with. The Islamist whackos currently seem to be the greatest threat.

I think that there are other non-religious idealogies that are a greater threat. I think one of those, collectivism, is a big part of the Islamist Whacko's impetus.

144 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:11:40am

re: #139 pat

I trust you all found the essay on Sufism "enlightening".

Andrew Bostom is a fanatic, and a bigot, and a supporter of fascist groups. His credibility is absolutely nonexistent.

145 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:12:09am
146 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:12:19am

re: #138 ggt

The Inquisition wasn't all that peaceful either.

History Geek note:

Benjamin Franklin's ancestor was a Protestant during the reign of Queen Mary. They had an English Bible that they taped onto the bottom of a stool, and this ancestor would have one of his children stand look-out while he turned the stool over and read to his family. At the cry of danger, he could turn the stool back over, and they would all be sitting around innocently talking.

(Benjamin Franklin, Autobiography, Part One.)

147 jvic  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:13:01am

re: #104 jcm

Both work.... ;-)

The Koran, afaik the literal word of Islam's G-d, is in Arabic.

Are Arab Muslims more equal than other Muslims? I have that impression but it could be incorrect.

148 ~Fianna  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:13:23am

re: #127 NelsFree

Dear Fianna (and such a lovely name, too),

I respect your ability to hold your "belief" of Islam and basically peaceful. Others, like myself, have taken time to study the Koran, the Sunnah (biography of Mo) and the Hadith (sayings and stories about Mo). It is my opinion that, if you take some time to read up on Islam, your opinion may change. Please read up on it.

Love,
NelsFree

Thank you for the compliment.

On this issue, I strongly agree with Charles.

All ideologies can be misused by humans who seek control. To say that the Koran advocates violence is absolutely true. However, so does the Old Testament - stoning adulterers, the right of fathers to kill disobedient sons, etc. Most modern Jews and Christians don't do that and don't accept it as part of their daily faith practice. They find and cling to the other parts of the Torah and Bible which advocate good things like charity and humility.

One thing to consider is that while the Koran is definitely based on the Bible, it's also post-Roman and not a reaction to Roman culture the way that the Bible is. The 3rd c. was an exceptionally violent time and it's not strange that the book would be marked by the era in which it was written.

The Muslims that say that Allah demands killing are no different than the extreme Christians that say that the Bible demands killing abortion doctors and pagans. I won't let myself judge all of Christianity by it's nutcases, and I won't descent to the BNP's level by judging all followers of Islam by Bin Ladin's actions. Most Muslims haven't killed anyone, same as most Christians, even though certainly some of both Muslims and Christians have done so in the name of a perverted belief in their faith.

149 spudly  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:13:32am

An interesting read on relative violence within the holy books in question:

[Link: www.meforum.org...]

150 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:13:39am

re: #145 SevoGuy

I'm not going to stand for people advocating banning books at my website. Do it again and your account will be history.

151 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:13:49am

re: #141 Charles

I don't deny that in more backward parts of the world, the killing of apostates does happen. How could I deny it? I've posted many examples of it here. But my point stands -- if Islam itself was "fundamentally violent," there should be no place in the world where apostates would be safe.

Charles,

That is because many CHOOSE to take the peaceful path and live a peaceful life. Therefore, there are many places on this earth where apostates would be safe.

This does not change the fundamentally violent teachings and decrees set forth in Islam's most holy instruction manual, the Koran.

The Koran is quite clear on what should be done with ANYONE leaving Islam. Not just in one instance, or in one region or tribe. It's an eternal decree that apostasy mean instant death.

152 pat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:13:52am

re: #144 Charles

Nevertheless, I have read those same texts myself. They are readily availble. I know nothing of this fellows history. As I said previously, I was a bit surprised to see an article of even date.

153 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:14:30am

re: #139 pat

I trust you all found the essay on Sufism "enlightening".

Yes, I read that when it came out. You could do the same thing with Catholicism. There's the IRA, Catholics cooperation in the holocaust, the inquisition, statements from popes, etc. However the fact remains that Sufis are generally much more moderate and tolerant than over versions of Islam. When Chanel 4 was investigating radical islam in the UK for "Undercover Mosque" they employed Sufis for the investigative work. You need to look at what's going on in the real world, not just selected quotes and facts from webpage.

154 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:14:33am

re: #108 Christene

Don't care who said it,..I couldn't agree w/him more!

Another fascist sympathizer pops up.

155 brucee  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:14:43am

re: #34 albusteve

where are moderate Muslims?...they need to stand up and be heard

Ask 0bama when he shakes Dinnerjacket's bloody hands.

156 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:15:12am

I think a big part of civilizing Islam is going to involve bringing civilization to the mid-east. Hook people up with roads, electricity, running water, and educational opportunities. And Islamic extremism will drop and the quality of live increases. This is one reason I'm not opposed to the cautious and supervised use of nuclear power in some parts of the region. I can't see a nuclear Egypt being much worse than a nuclear Pakistan, for example.

157 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:15:47am

re: #154 Charles

Another fascist sympathizer pops up.

I queried it twice no response.

158 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:15:48am

re: #129 iceweasel

It's true. It's in the nature of extremist organisations to eventually eat their own.

Especially fascists. Fascists have to create an 'enemy without',--it helps build up national identity, and they trade in nationalism-- and they have to consolidate their internal power by talking about the 'enemy within'.

If the enemies do not exist, they need to create them.

Same holds true of extremists over-all, IMO. Such movements are inherently cannibalistic. They kill and eat their own.

Great points, Ice. Look at iran, it is a great example. After khomeini took power, many of the people who helped him gain that power were dispatched. One guy I specifically remember was Sadeq Ghotsbadeh, who appeared on Nightline virtually every night when Koppel started the show. Here's his story [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Extremists of all stripes are to be avoided or exposed.

159 occasional reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:16:02am

Griffin is a racist scumbag.

Islam is, however... Fundamentally problematic. Mo led armies in wars of conquest; the religion was born through violence. No, that does not make all Muslims violent, etc.; but Islam is a "conquest ideology".

160 pat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:16:09am

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Catholics were decidedly unpleasant at points in history. Enlightenment and the 30 years war changed that for the most part.

161 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:16:16am

re: #151 astronmr20

That is because many CHOOSE to take the peaceful path and live a peaceful life. Therefore, there are many places on this earth where apostates would be safe.

And that is exactly my point. Absolutist statements about Islam being "fundamentally violent" are deceptive, because Muslims can and do choose to ignore or renounce the more violent aspects of their dogma -- just as Christians do.

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:16:40am

Truly, I don't know that any of us here really know what Islam is about. How many of us know Arabic and have read the "true" Koran. We only know what those who interpret the text have told us.

I guess, I could say the same about Christianity or any religion. I don't know Greek, or Hebrew or Sanskrit or Chinese.

163 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:16:49am

re: #141 Charles

if Islam itself was "fundamentally violent," there should be no place in the world where apostates would be safe.


Perhaps this state of things only means that there are places that the violence cannot now reach.

164 pat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:16:51am

Off to my run.

165 lostlakehiker  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:19:18am

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is this fuckwit proposing that fascism is the proper medicine to combat that "cancer"?

He's proposing "chemotherapy". Follow the chain of associations; it's a short one. Chemotherapy=kill the bad cells with poisonous chemicals. So, he's proposing to kill the bad people with poison gas.

Islam, unfortunately, proposes to kill the bad people by cutting their heads off. All of us who will not submit.

The good news is that both these genocidal agendas are beyond the power of their proponents to implement. There aren't enough people who think all the bad people should be slaughtered to bring to reality such bloody fantasies.

These metaphors are devices to twist the thought and understanding, and blunt the natural reaction of an outraged conscience. Proposing flat out to kill everybody from the other group won't fly. Assert that they are "cancer", or "apes and pigs", and the mind is pointed toward the thought that yes, of course, cancer is bad, apes are ugly, and pigs are dirty. Anything goes.

No it doesn't.

166 JHW  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:20:28am

Banning books? That's a bright idea in this case in particular. The most memorized book in the world, in an age of computers, copiers, etc. Remember samizdat and the Soviet's attempts to suppress the works of Solzhenitsyn and others, works produced on mimeograph machines, typewriters and even circulating in handwritten copies.

167 occasional reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:20:31am

re: #141 Charles

I don't deny that in more backward parts of the world, the killing of apostates does happen. How could I deny it? I've posted many examples of it here. But my point stands -- if Islam itself was "fundamentally violent," there should be no place in the world where apostates would be safe.

Sorry, but I think that last statement is faulty reasoning. By comparison; "if the KKK were fundamentally violent, black people would never be safe anywhere." Fallacious statement, because it ignores exterior constraints on the Klan's behavior.

168 ~Fianna  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:20:44am

re: #163 Ojoe

Perhaps this state of things only means that there are places that the violence cannot now reach.

And that's the beauty of modern society. It has less to do with religion than it does with how religion changed after the Enlightenment.

We adopted a different world-view after the 18th c. which changed how we see ourselves in the world, how we view the role and responsibility of religion and how we value the lives of other humans.

I think that what's going on in Iran is an indication that that outlook is starting to win in the global marketplace of ideas, but it's not going to change overnight. Putting hatred in to the mix is not going to help that.

As a world, we need to base our interactions with each other on the ideals that we judge American First Amendment rights by - think and even say what you want, until you get to the point of harming other people, then we'll shut it down. It's not what they believe, it's what they do.

169 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:21:59am

re: #166 JHW

Banning books? That's a bright idea in this case in particular. The most memorized book in the world, in an age of computers, copiers, etc. Remember samizdat and the Soviet's attempts to suppress the works of Solzhenitsyn and others, works produced on mimeograph machines, typewriters and even circulating in handwritten copies.

Know your enemies.

The Koran, Mileposts and other Islamic writings are as important to understand as our own history and philosophy.

170 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:22:11am

re: #168 ~Fianna

A fine post.

171 occasional reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:22:22am

re: #160 pat

Catholics were decidedly unpleasant at points in history. Enlightenment and the 30 years war changed that for the most part.

Hell, I can think of a few relatives...

172 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:22:31am

re: #161 Charles

And that is exactly my point. Absolutist statements about Islam being "fundamentally violent" are deceptive, because Muslims can and do choose to ignore or renounce the more violent aspects of their dogma -- just as Christians do.

Yes indeed- but one text preaches and demands hate, the other love. We see this in daily body counts and the direct quotations that Islamists use from the Koran.

It's a matter of scale, when juxtaposed with the text itself.

I can only surmise that if the Koran did NOT have these passages, and was not born and spread with violence, that we would perhaps still have some fanatics, but not see 1/1000th of the suffering we see today.

(Just to reiterate, I don't agree with Griffin).

173 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:23:09am

re: #140 spudly


Muslims are people that self-identify as such, and they can be just going through the motions and actually atheists in reality. Islam, OTOH, is what the various sects say it is.

That is utterly contradictory, and reveals that you actually have some kind of weird racist notion about what 'muslim' means. It's easy to see your error this if we just replace 'Christian" and "christiantity' for muslim and islam in your statements. Look:

MuslimsChristians are people that self-identify as such, and they can be just going through the motions and actually atheists in reality.

(Huh? What? Can you make sense of this statement, with the word 'Christian' in it? If you can't, doesn't that prove that you're treating 'muslim' as something more than a religious or cultural identity?)

Islam, Christianity, OTOH, is what the various sects say it is.


(Again, huh? This sentence makes sense with Christianity in it-- but not if you want to combine it with the first statement and insist that some people are "christians' regardless of whether or not they're atheists)

174 JHW  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:23:22am

re: #169 jcm

I strongly agree.

175 ~Fianna  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:24:14am

re: #170 Ojoe

A fine post.

Thank you.

And thanks to Charles for putting together a community where difficult and emotional issues can be discussed with absolute respect and maturity.

176 occasional reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:24:53am

Two troubling things: 1) IIRC, apostasy is outlawed even today in all but 1 or 2 majority Muslim countries; 2) those Pew polls in Muslim countries about attitudes to, e.g., OBL.

177 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:25:51am

I have to go.

Have a great day all!

178 ~Fianna  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:26:22am

As much as I hate to run off in the middle of a really interesting conversation, I need to jump in the shower and head off to lunch with my husband.

I'm looking forward to catching up on this one this evening though.

179 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:26:39am

re: #167 occasional reader

Sorry, but I think that last statement is faulty reasoning. By comparison; "if the KKK were fundamentally violent, black people would never be safe anywhere." Fallacious statement, because it ignores exterior constraints on the Klan's behavior.

I think the comparison to the KKK is faulty -- the KKK is a small fringe group that operates in limited areas of one country, while Islam has billions of followers all over the world. Not equivalent.

180 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:28:02am

BBL

181 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:30:40am

re: #167 occasional reader

Sorry, but I think that last statement is faulty reasoning. By comparison; "if the KKK were fundamentally violent, black people would never be safe anywhere." Fallacious statement, because it ignores exterior constraints on the Klan's behavior.

False analogy, on your part. People construe membership in the klan as extrinsic and voluntary, and membership in a religion as somehow intrinsic. People who claim that 'islam is fundamentally violent" mean to slur all muslims, past, present and future, for their membership (even if merely by birth or blood) in a religion.

The KKK is an organisation and it has violence, white supremacism, racism, and bigotry as its core reasons for existence. It doesn't hide any of this.

182 NelsFree  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:31:40am

re: #148 ~Fianna

Dear Fianna (oh, what a name!),

Your post contains some factual errors and no small amount of moral equivalence. Once again, I counsel you to seek knowledge. Since some unsuitable behavior is starting to show on this thread, I will take a break until another good pun thread shows up, like tires, or sudoku. This kitchen is too hot for me.

Hugs,
NelsFree

183 Sevoguy  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:31:49am

It's time to read the 3 conjectures again.

184 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:32:33am

islam needs a "Vatican II" type of event. i have no idea what it will take to bring that day to fruition, but hopefully iran's situation could be the start.

185 Sevoguy  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:33:00am

I hear you.

186 amir  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:33:04am

re: #181 iceweasel

People who say "Islam is fundamentally violent" are not saying anything about the people who self identify or who are identified as Muslims.

187 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:33:13am

re: #161 Charles

Islam has a history of inexorable violence against non-Muslims and the violence is not limited to backward places. When the ideology gains a majority of adherents in a country, or is not held back by rule of law, non-believers suffers. The fact that every apostate is not murdered or every non-Muslim is not persecuted is a matter of opportunity, not intent.

Islamic cultures have not yet figured out how to wrest control of civil society away from the preachers. Until a society takes away the power of a religious elite to impose the "will of god," nothing will change from within the culture.

188 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:33:35am

re: #184 _RememberTonyC

islam needs a "Vatican II" type of event. i have no idea what it will take to bring that day to fruition, but hopefully iran's situation could be the start.

Vatican II, fuck, it needs a reconstruction.

189 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:33:45am

Common sense is worth way more than we give it credit for. That's all.

190 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:34:39am

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Vatican II, fuck, it needs a reconstruction.

Al-Luther needs to nail a few thesis to the Kabba door.

191 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:35:18am

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Vatican II, fuck, it needs a reconstruction.

A Protestant Reformation style reconstruction might be a good start.

192 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:35:29am

OT - U.S. seeks amnesty for two held in North Korea

Obama is basically asking for forgiveness again... WTF.

"The United States has dropped its request that two American journalists imprisoned in North Korea be released on humanitarian grounds, and is seeking amnesty instead, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said."

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

193 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:36:04am

re: #184 _RememberTonyC

islam needs a "Vatican II" type of event. i have no idea what it will take to bring that day to fruition, but hopefully iran's situation could be the start.

One of the best analyses I've read of Iran pointed out that there isn't much difference, technically, between Ahmandi and Moussavi in the short-term. It did say that this is a matter of great longterm importance and it represents a battle over the meaning of Islam: it's essentially the beginning of a Vatican II for Islam, a reformist modern coalition battling an entrenched tradition.

194 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:36:34am

re: #187 shiek al beif salami

Islam has a history of inexorable violence against non-Muslims and the violence is not limited to backward places. When the ideology gains a majority of adherents in a country, or is not held back by rule of law, non-believers suffers. The fact that every apostate is not murdered or every non-Muslim is not persecuted is a matter of opportunity, not intent.

Islamic cultures have not yet figured out how to wrest control of civil society away from the preachers. Until a society takes away the power of a religious elite to impose the "will of god," nothing will change from within the culture.

What's the name of the tax that all infidels must pay?

195 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:37:09am

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Vatican II, fuck, it needs a reconstruction.

we're talking about the same thing. Vatican II was about modernizing Catholicism to better deal with the rest of the world and its own more modernized followers. why is that a bad idea for islam? and why is that not (at least partly) a reconstruction of the faith?

196 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:37:24am

re: #181 iceweasel

People who claim that 'islam is fundamentally violent" mean to slur all muslims, past, present and future, for their membership (even if merely by birth or blood) in a religion.

A text that says anyone who leaves the religion should be executed- is fundamentally violent. Same for a text that demands it's followers fight the non-members wherever they are found.

I do believe that MUSLIMS are not fundamentally voilent, but the source text of Islam is- by pure definition and by it's own proclamations.

BTW, I don't go around proclaiming these things. But when a topic of conversation demands pure definition in regards to source text, it's worth putting into perspective.

According to Muhammed, and according to Allah, Islam is NOT a religion of peace. Yes- it can be whatever a follower makes of it- but by it's own founder, it is steeped in blood.

197 occasional reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:37:46am

re: #179 Charles

I think the comparison to the KKK is faulty -- the KKK is a small fringe group that operates in limited areas of one country, while Islam has billions of followers all over the world. Not equivalent.

The point was; you have to take those external constraints into account.

198 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:37:48am

re: #191 FurryOldGuyJeans

A Protestant Reformation style reconstruction might be a good start.

Really, no way, Luther still had anti-semitism at the top of his to-do list. That's why I said reconstruction, not reformation. Reformation, for me and a lot of those knowledgeable about history, implies simply a sift in authority, not in the racist attitudes of the Christian church of the time.

199 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:37:56am

re: #190 jcm

Al-Luther needs to nail a few thesis to the Kabba door.

Ah yes, Martin Ali Bin al-Luther is searching constantly in the Koran for forgiveness for his sins.

200 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:38:30am

re: #194 MandyManners

jizya?

201 Truck Monkey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:38:36am

re: #194 MandyManners

What's the name of the tax that all infidels must pay?

Jizya

202 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:39:23am

re: #199 Taqyia2Me

Sola Qu'ran.

203 occasional reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:39:32am

re: #181 iceweasel

See my comment above.

204 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:39:49am

OT: FOX news gives up on Israel....
Heroic Zionist army fires their skunk & tear gas @ Fox reporter

Reena Ninan reporting from the Gaza Strip being shot at with tear gas and stink-water cannons by the mighty Israel Defense Force (funded, in part, by the USA).

Notice how it's not a security fence any more; it's now a separation barrier. The "peace activists" get tear gassed after forcibly opening the gate and attempt to illegally enter Israel. Fox news covers this as some sort of injustice. Could you imagine a report like a few months ago? I really think we may be seeing the continued Paulifaction of the Republican party moving into foreign policy.

205 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:39:52am

re: #199 Taqyia2Me

Ah yes, Martin Ali Bin al-Luther is searching constantly in the Koran for forgiveness for his sins.

Really? Sure, Luther, the anti-semite.

206 capitalist piglet  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:40:22am

re: #192 Walter L. Newton

OT - U.S. seeks amnesty for two held in North Korea

Obama is basically asking for forgiveness again... WTF.

"The United States has dropped its request that two American journalists imprisoned in North Korea be released on humanitarian grounds, and is seeking amnesty instead, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said."

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Maybe it's been mentioned already, but there's this, too:

Obama Frees Iranian Terror Masters


Michael Ledeen has reported that the release of the Irbil Five is part of the price Iran has demanded for its release in May of the freelance journalist Roxana Saberi. Again, that’s only part of the price: Iran also has demanded the release of hundreds of its other terror facilitators in our custody.
207 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:40:29am

re: #200 _RememberTonyC

jizya?

re: #201 Truck Monkey

Jizya

That's it! Thank you.

It's not violent but, it is an attack on the conscience and the fruits of one's labor.

208 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:40:39am

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Really, no way, Luther still had anti-semitism at the top of his to-do list. That's why I said reconstruction, not reformation. Reformation, for me and a lot of those knowledgeable about history, implies simply a sift in authority, not in the racist attitudes of the Christian church of the time.

Which is why I said A START; it wouldn't be the entirety. But it will take individuals to push back against the entrenched authorities.

209 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:41:00am

Yes, Islam has a history of warlike behavior -- this is self-evident. But my point is that in the modern world, there are many, many Muslims who do not follow this version of Islam, who are decent human beings who want the same things other human beings want - peace, security, and a chance to succeed.

When you repeat over and over that "Islam is fundamentally violent," you're ignoring all of those people who seem to be able to follow Islam and not be violent. It's an absolutist statement that's ultimately deceptive - a form of stereotyping.

210 Truck Monkey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:41:24am

re: #204 Killgore Trout

OT: FOX news gives up on Israel....
Heroic Zionist army fires their skunk & tear gas @ Fox reporter

Notice how it's not a security fence any more; it's now a separation barrier. The "peace activists" get tear gassed after forcibly opening the gate and attempt to illegally enter Israel. Fox news covers this as some sort of injustice. Could you imagine a report like a few months ago? I really think we may be seeing the continued Paulifaction of the Republican party moving into foreign policy.

It was not even in the Gaza Strip. It was in the West Bank. Journalistic malpractice.

211 jcm  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #207 MandyManners

That's it! Thank you.

It's not violent but, it is an attack on the conscience and the fruits of one's labor.

Protection money, pay us or else....

212 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:41:54am

re: #208 FurryOldGuyJeans

Which is why I said A START; it wouldn't be the entirety. But it will take individuals to push back against the entrenched authorities.

Fine, for me it would not be a start. For you, ok.

213 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:42:46am
214 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:43:06am

re: #196 astronmr20

A text that says anyone who leaves the religion should be executed- is fundamentally violent. Same for a text that demands it's followers fight the non-members wherever they are found.

I do believe that MUSLIMS are not fundamentally voilent, but the source text of Islam is- by pure definition and by it's own proclamations.

BTW, I don't go around proclaiming these things. But when a topic of conversation demands pure definition in regards to source text, it's worth putting into perspective.

According to Muhammed, and according to Allah, Islam is NOT a religion of peace. Yes- it can be whatever a follower makes of it- but by it's own founder, it is steeped in blood.

No. No.

This is flawed. This a fundamentally flawed interpretation of Islam.

Let me put it to you this way: Consider the Old Testament. THAT is a bloody, violent, vengeful text-- and it bears almost no relation to Judaism as anyone I know practices Judaism. Even the Torah--maybe especially the Torah!-- is also filled with similar stories.

And anyone who wanted to just point to either text and claim it literally stands for the teaching of Judaism would be flagrantly wrong.

Similarly for these claims about the Koran and Islam.

215 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:43:08am

re: #211 jcm

Protection money, pay us or else....

Back off and leave me alone with my Liberty, please.

216 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:43:52am

re: #208 FurryOldGuyJeans

Which is why I said A START; it wouldn't be the entirety. But it will take individuals to push back against the entrenched authorities.

And no, if you are really trying to use the reformation as a model, then it was a LEADER who pushed back against the entrenched authority, not individuals.

So, in you scenario, it would have to be a major mullah or iman who would make the break.

217 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:45:36am

Another great achievement in Islamic science.....

Nano-particles in Camels’ urine may help treat cancer (with award wining pic)

Dr. Faten Abdel-Rahman Khorshid is responsible for one of the Kingdom’s greatest national achievements in the field of science for her work which began with the urine of camels and concluded in a potential cure for cancer.
....
Speaking to the Saudi Gazette, Dr. Khorshid claimed that she was inspired by Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) medical advice and that camel urine consists of natural substances that work to eradicate malignant cells and maintain the number of healthy cells in a cancer patient.
“This treatment is not an invention, but rather, taken from our Prophet’s legacy,” she remarked. A Hadith narrated by Al-Bukhari (2855) and Muslim (1671) claims that some people came to Madina and fell ill with bloated abdomens. The Prophet (pbuh) told them to combine the milk and urine of a camel and drink that, after which they recovered.
218 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:45:45am

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

And no, if you are really trying to use the reformation as a model, then it was a LEADER who pushed back against the entrenched authority, not individuals.

So, in you scenario, it would have to be a major mullah or iman who would make the break.

And Luther wasn't an individual?

219 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:45:47am

re: #211 jcm

Protection money, pay us or else....

You go to jail for that in this country.

220 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:46:04am

re: #205 Walter L. Newton

Really? Sure, Luther, the anti-semite.

We hung the one perfect man by nails on a crucifix. Then speared him.

221 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:46:13am

re: #204 Killgore Trout

OT: FOX news gives up on Israel....
Heroic Zionist army fires their skunk & tear gas @ Fox reporter

[Video]Notice how it's not a security fence any more; it's now a separation barrier. The "peace activists" get tear gassed after forcibly opening the gate and attempt to illegally enter Israel. Fox news covers this as some sort of injustice. Could you imagine a report like a few months ago? I really think we may be seeing the continued Paulifaction of the Republican party moving into foreign policy.

KT-- thanks for this. This is CRAZY! I will be talking to a couple of Israeli friends of mine about this to get their reaction. cheers.

222 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:46:21am

re: #213 taxfreekiller

Please don't start.

223 amir  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:47:11am

re: #209 Charles
This is a real question and not me trying to be argumentative. When you say many Moslims "do not follow this version of Islam" do you mean that they follow a different version of Islam or that they are less religious?

Also, if Islam calls for Jihad or the killing of apostates, that doesn't mean that every follower must take it upon themselves to fulfill this task.

224 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:47:19am

Muslims can be moderate to the extent that they do not emulate the exemplary Muslim, the historical Muhammad.

If Muslims seek to follow Muhammad's example, however, you get much different results that you get when Christians attempt to follow Jesus' example. Or Buddhists, the Buddha's example.

225 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:47:50am

re: #221 iceweasel

It's a report like BBC or Al Jazeera (english) would have done.

226 Shug  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:48:02am

If you hate all muslims you lose credibility and nobody cares that you attack and hate the bad ones

you are just a fanatic and a racist and no different than the hate preachers who hate the kaffir

227 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:48:19am
228 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:48:33am

re: #209 Charles

Yes, Islam has a history of warlike behavior -- this is self-evident. But my point is that in the modern world, there are many, many Muslims who do not follow this version of Islam, who are decent human beings who want the same things other human beings want - peace, security, and a chance to succeed.

When you repeat over and over that "Islam is fundamentally violent," you're ignoring all of those people who seem to be able to follow Islam and not be violent. It's an absolutist statement that's ultimately deceptive - a form of stereotyping.


well said, but consider this. in the Old Testament, it is not a far stretch to call the binding of Isaac and his near sacrifice an "honor killing." but that happened 6000 years ago. the Judeo/Christian religions stopped behaving that way a few hundred years ago. And as a result, have largely been a positive force. in too many parts of today's world, the treatment of Isaac (and others who have been the victims of honor killings) is considered perfectly OK.

That's why I say islam needs a modernization program. In America and other nations, individual muslims have value systems that are odds with the head choppers. But the religion is so intertwined with politics that a real reformation is unlikely unless a regime like iran implodes of its own excesses. If that happens, anything is possible.

229 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:48:48am

re: #222 Killgore Trout

Please don't start.

Ha.

Don't Let's Start.

230 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:49:33am

re: #214 iceweasel

No. No.

This is flawed. This a fundamentally flawed interpretation of Islam.

Let me put it to you this way: Consider the Old Testament. THAT is a bloody, violent, vengeful text-- and it bears almost no relation to Judaism as anyone I know practices Judaism. Even the Torah--maybe especially the Torah!-- is also filled with similar stories.

And anyone who wanted to just point to either text and claim it literally stands for the teaching of Judaism would be flagrantly wrong.

Similarly for these claims about the Koran and Islam.

Not totally correct. Yes, there is violence in the hebrew scriptures, violence that was ordered by god. But, nothing in the hebrew scriptures warrants a command that the Jews continue to follow those orders.

That is why, in general, at least theologically, Jews do not believe that they have some mission to save the world, rule the world, kill and subject.

But the Koran has OPEN rules and commands to CONTINUE to do this, subject, till the world comes to allah. And this subjection comes with methods, such as taxes, slavery if need and, the big prize, death.

Two totally different theological tracks.

231 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:50:12am

than you get, PIMF

232 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:50:37am

re: #228 _RememberTonyC

well said, but consider this. in the Old Testament, it is not a far stretch to call the binding of Isaac and his near sacrifice an "honor killing." but that happened 6000 years ago. the Judeo/Christian religions stopped behaving that way a few hundred years ago. And as a result, have largely been a positive force. in too many parts of today's world, the treatment of Isaac (and others who have been the victims of honor killings) is considered perfectly OK.

That's why I say islam needs a modernization program. In America and other nations, individual muslims have value systems that are odds with the head choppers. But the religion is so intertwined with politics that a real reformation is unlikely unless a regime like iran implodes of its own excesses. If that happens, anything is possible.

We could start by funding schools that teach science, math, logic, world literature (Jane Austen you piece of uncovered meat, you!), and so on. Modernization rests on education of the right sort.

233 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:50:38am

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

And no, if you are really trying to use the reformation as a model, then it was a LEADER who pushed back against the entrenched authority, not individuals.

So, in you scenario, it would have to be a major mullah or iman who would make the break.

Fine, squabble all you want over semantics, I won't play.

234 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:50:39am

re: #220 Taqyia2Me

We hung the one perfect man by nails on a crucifix. Then speared him.

I don't care, I'm an atheist, Luther was a anti-semite, for me, end of story. You wanna forgive him, love him, respect him, that's your option.

235 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:50:40am
236 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:51:16am

re: #214 iceweasel

No. No.

This is flawed. This a fundamentally flawed interpretation of Islam.

Let me put it to you this way: Consider the Old Testament. THAT is a bloody, violent, vengeful text-- and it bears almost no relation to Judaism as anyone I know practices Judaism. Even the Torah--maybe especially the Torah!-- is also filled with similar stories.

And anyone who wanted to just point to either text and claim it literally stands for the teaching of Judaism would be flagrantly wrong.

Similarly for these claims about the Koran and Islam.

There are stark differences in the violent passages and nature of these two texts, iceweasel. Stark.

As I did earlier up-thread, let me explain.

In the Old Testament, calls for war or violence by God were very specific to certain situations, and had a specific term with a specific goal. For instance, Jericho. When it was over, it was over. In the Koran, however all calls for violence were open-ended. I.E. "fight them wherever you find them," and the general calls to slay unbelievers had no term- they were for forever.

Eventually, Muhammed needed less and less of a reason to carry out raids and to grow his empire. When he died, he left his followers with instructions to take the fight all over the earth, and follow that decree they did. Ask the unfortunate Hindus after their entire continent was soaked in blood. Meanwhile, Muslims continued to slay and assassinate each other-- even Aisha was not safe.

237 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:51:23am
238 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:51:29am

re: #209 Charles

Nazism was fundamentally evil; it was imposed on millions of Germans who didn't want it. Communism was and is fundamentally evil; millions of Russians were born and indoctrinated into it, but were not fundamentally evil themselves. Evil ideas can be imposed upon people, but it doesn't follow that the people imposed upon are inherently evil.

Certainly it would be unjust to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that doesn't mean the filthy bathwater of evil ideology shouldn't be thrown out.

239 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:51:42am

re: #233 FurryOldGuyJeans

Fine, squabble all you want over semantics, I won't play.

I know that.

240 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:52:06am

re: #232 EmmmieG

We could start by funding schools that teach science, math, logic, world literature (Jane Austen you piece of uncovered meat, you!), and so on. Modernization rests on education of the right sort.


we're trying that in afghanistan .... there have been some great examples, but the women are so repressed that it makes the job tougher.

241 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:52:25am

re: #224 Dar ul Harb

Muslims can be moderate to the extent that they do not emulate the exemplary Muslim, the historical Muhammad.

If Muslims seek to follow Muhammad's example, however, you get much different results that you get when Christians attempt to follow Jesus' example. Or Buddhists, the Buddha's example.

Exactly.

242 Right Brain  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:52:58am

Mr. Griffin certainly has not made himself very attractive by his past actions, that noted, I don't see that his comments regarding Islam vary substantially from those made by Christopher Hitchens, Mark Steyn (whose tract American Alone is a broadside against Islam taking over the West), Pim Fortuyn, or Winston Churchill for that matter, who once stated that Islam in a man is as dangerous as rabies in a dog (a text I learned about on this web-site).

243 Kragar  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:54:24am

Castro Says `Wave of Coups’ Could Come If Zelaya Isn’t Restored

July 11 (Bloomberg) -- Honduran President Manuel Zelaya’s ouster could be the first in a series of upheavals in Latin America if he isn’t returned to power, former Cuban President Fidel Castro said.

A successful coup would set a precedent putting the region’s governments at the mercy of military leaders trained by the U.S., Castro wrote in comments posted on the Web site of the state-run Juventud Rebelde newspaper.

“A wave of coups threatens to sweep away many Latin American governments,” Castro wrote. “The authority of many civilian governments in Central and South America will become weakened.”

Not seeing a downside given some of the current leaders down there.

244 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:54:27am
245 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:56:17am

The unfortunate bit about all of this, is that whenever someone like Griffin criticizes Islam to this degree, it removes the teeth from anyone wanting to point out the glaring flaws within the Islamic community.

Suddenly, anyone "anti-jihad" can be equated with this asshole.

Charles, thanks for posting this. Griffin and his ilk are the cancer.

246 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:56:32am

re: #230 Walter L. Newton

Not totally correct. Yes, there is violence in the hebrew scriptures, violence that was ordered by god. But, nothing in the hebrew scriptures warrants a command that the Jews continue to follow those orders.

That is why, in general, at least theologically, Jews do not believe that they have some mission to save the world, rule the world, kill and subject.

But the Koran has OPEN rules and commands to CONTINUE to do this, subject, till the world comes to allah. And this subjection comes with methods, such as taxes, slavery if need and, the big prize, death.

Two totally different theological tracks.

Walter, I think that people can find rules and commands within the Old testament (and other places) to justify anything, if they look hard enough.

There is no shortage of bloody stories and violent commands.

I just can't believe anyone who wants to claim that Islam is fundamentally violent or that the Koran is fundamentally violent; neither are 'fundamentally' more violent than the OT, and the history of Christianity surely proves that the practice ofa religion can bear very little relation to its sacred books. (I'm thinking of the contrast between the New Testament and the crusades, the inquisition. I would never think those were indicative of the nature of catholicism or christianity. Why the difference? )

247 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:56:43am

re: #242 Right Brain

Mr. Griffin certainly has not made himself very attractive by his past actions, that noted, I don't see that his comments regarding Islam vary substantially from those made by Christopher Hitchens, Mark Steyn (whose tract American Alone is a broadside against Islam taking over the West), Pim Fortuyn, or Winston Churchill for that matter, who once stated that Islam in a man is as dangerous as rabies in a dog (a text I learned about on this web-site).

Did any of those men call for the sinking of immigrants' boats?

248 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:57:06am

re: #243 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Castro Says `Wave of Coups’ Could Come If Zelaya Isn’t Restored

Not seeing a downside given some of the current leaders down there.

I do see one, a lot of people would end up getting killed.

249 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:57:07am

I'm off to work .... have a great day

250 Shug  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:57:19am

re: #245 astronmr20

The unfortunate bit about all of this, is that whenever someone like Griffin criticizes Islam to this degree, it removes the teeth from anyone wanting to point out the glaring flaws within the Islamic community.

Suddenly, anyone "anti-jihad" can be equated with this asshole.

Charles, thanks for posting this. Griffin and his ilk are the cancer.

they are to the anti-jihad movement what scott roeder is to the pro life movement.

251 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:57:40am

re: #242 Right Brain:

Seems you don't consider the context of Griffin's remarks relevant.

252 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:58:16am

re: #234 Walter L. Newton

I don't care, I'm an atheist, Luther was a anti-semite, for me, end of story. You wanna forgive him, love him, respect him, that's your option.

Luther was a vicious antisemite.

253 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:58:46am

re: #124 Charles

You may say it's a "poor argument," but by admitting that Muslims can and do choose not to follow the more extreme fundamentalist dictates of Islam, you're actually agreeing with my point. Choosing not to practice extremist dogma is what we call "moderation."

And it seems to work extremely well in Indonesia, among other places. Indonesia has the largest Muslim population on the planet, and is singularly unafflicted by the bullshit peddled elsewhere.

The bullshit, in fact, emanates pretty much exclusively from a single sect of Islam - Wahabism. The bulk of Mulsims neither teach, preach or accept the bullshit, anymore than Christians scramble around nowadays looking for witches to burn or adulterers to stone. Shall I make a short trip to the Web and produce a few closely-spaced pages of Biblical passages every bit as violent as what is claimed for the Koran?

It's very similar to making the leap from the fact that a small sect of Christians believes the earth is a few thousand years old to the conclusions that all Christians are retarded knuckled-draggers. It doesn't even come close to representing a majority of what Christians believe, and certainly doesn't speak for the doctrinal views held by the vast majority of Christian sects.

254 Honcho  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:59:02am

Nevertheless, since nationalist socialist white separatist groups like the national alliance have heretofore made common cause with jihadis due to the common enemy of The Jooz, and there is no surviving national socialist ideology aside from white separatist groups without ideology or programme, has the european immigration problem deconstructed the antisemitism that the european right has traditionally held, and are the "Anti Germans" of the German Left in this sense a harbringer, rather than an aberration, of future developments?

255 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:59:08am

re: #57 ~Fianna

I don't believe that. I think if you look at what's going on in a lot of Islamic countries now, you're starting to see something that looks a lot like our Reformation.

It doesn't get a lot of play here, but there has been a push for women's rights, particularly (that's my issue, so that's what I'm most aware of) in Afghanistan for several years before 2001.

The flip side to that is that the violence is going to get worse, at least briefly, in response to both internal and external pressure to modernize. The only real difference between Islamofascism and our current so-called "culture war" is merely one of scale - we've developed stronger social strictures against killing people for ideology over the last 500 years, but our path from 1066 to 1776 and beyond wasn't strewen with roses and hugs, either. (cf: "Bloody" Mary, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Hugeonot wars, lynchings...)

Fianna -

Where the "moderates" fall down is in their moderation. An Islamic Reformation will require reformers willing to use equal if not GREATER TERROR than the Islamists. The "Protestant" powers of Europe were willing to go to war with the "Catholic" powers, and did. This maintained the Reformation. Without that willingness, Islamic Reformation is bound to fail.
My two cents as to what is happening - for what it is worth.

-S-

256 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:00:00pm

re: #242 Right Brain

Mr. Griffin certainly has not made himself very attractive by his past actions, that noted, I don't see that his comments regarding Islam vary substantially from those made by Christopher Hitchens, Mark Steyn (whose tract American Alone is a broadside against Islam taking over the West), Pim Fortuyn, or Winston Churchill for that matter, who once stated that Islam in a man is as dangerous as rabies in a dog (a text I learned about on this web-site).

Come on! This guy is a Holocaust denier, and a white supremacist who associates with people like David Duke. I could not care less about whether he has a "valid point" somewhere in his hateful spew.

257 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:00:47pm

re: #255 Dr. Shalit

Fianna -

Where the "moderates" fall down is in their moderation. An Islamic Reformation will require reformers willing to use equal if not GREATER TERROR than the Islamists. The "Protestant" powers of Europe were willing to go to war with the "Catholic" powers, and did. This maintained the Reformation. Without that willingness, Islamic Reformation is bound to fail.
My two cents as to what is happening - for what it is worth.

-S-

The tw main sects, Sunni and Shi'ite, are willing to go at each other at a moment's notice.

258 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:01:08pm

re: #246 iceweasel

Walter, I think that people can find rules and commands within the Old testament (and other places) to justify anything, if they look hard enough.

There is no shortage of bloody stories and violent commands.

I just can't believe anyone who wants to claim that Islam is fundamentally violent or that the Koran is fundamentally violent; neither are 'fundamentally' more violent than the OT, and the history of Christianity surely proves that the practice ofa religion can bear very little relation to its sacred books. (I'm thinking of the contrast between the New Testament and the crusades, the inquisition. I would never think those were indicative of the nature of catholicism or christianity. Why the difference? )

Islam is not fundamentally violent, the Koran is, with in full force commands that are applicable to this day. You don't know the hebrew scriptures if you are claiming that they follow the same track as the Koran. Or you don't know either book.

I never said, anywhere, in this thread or any thread that Islam is fundamentally violent.

I like you, but you tend to always "elaborate" what someone said when you are answering. If you want to debate with me, do not "add" to my narrative, I can explain myself quite well.

259 Kragar  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:01:35pm

re: #248 FurryOldGuyJeans

I do see one, a lot of people would end up getting killed.

Either they die under the likes Castro, Chavez, the corrupt Mexican Government, and Morales or they die bringing them down. I hardly think Castro is worried about the democratic process with his warning.

260 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:01:56pm

re: #217 Killgore Trout

Another great achievement in Islamic science.....

Nano-particles in Camels’ urine may help treat cancer (with award wining pic)

It's actually frightening to read what passes for science in "modern" Saudi Arabia these days.

It's no wonder the creationists are welcome with open arms over there.

261 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:02:03pm

re: #253 SixDegrees

And it seems to work extremely well in Indonesia, among other places. Indonesia has the largest Muslim population on the planet, and is singularly unafflicted by the bullshit peddled elsewhere.

The bullshit, in fact, emanates pretty much exclusively from a single sect of Islam - Wahabism. The bulk of Mulsims neither teach, preach or accept the bullshit, anymore than Christians scramble around nowadays looking for witches to burn or adulterers to stone. Shall I make a short trip to the Web and produce a few closely-spaced pages of Biblical passages every bit as violent as what is claimed for the Koran?

It's very similar to making the leap from the fact that a small sect of Christians believes the earth is a few thousand years old to the conclusions that all Christians are retarded knuckled-draggers. It doesn't even come close to representing a majority of what Christians believe, and certainly doesn't speak for the doctrinal views held by the vast majority of Christian sects.

EXACTLY! Well said!

Every time people want to condemn all of Islam I want to ask if I should take the knuckledragging creationist sects of Christianity as representative of 'all' Christianity. Of course I shouldn't, and I don't, because I know they're fringe. Yet others don't want to believe this about Wahabbism in relation to Islam.

262 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:02:08pm

re: #252 iceweasel

Luther was a vicious antisemite.

I know that.

263 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:04:34pm

re: #253 SixDegrees

Shall I make a short trip to the Web and produce a few closely-spaced pages of Biblical passages every bit as violent as what is claimed for the Koran?

In the New Testament?

The Old Testament was nailed to the Cross and no longer holds sway for Christians.

264 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #246 iceweasel

I agree with Walter's open-ended command viewpoint.

And the crusades didn't come about because people in Europe were bored with life. Islamic expansionism caused the Europeans to push back in reaction to what was taking place, especially in the Christian lands to the East. In many ways, Islamic conquests were what helped to coalesce the idea of "European."

It is no coincidence that Columbus went in search of trade routes in 1492, the same year the Moors' were pushed out of Spain. The traditional trade routes through Muslim lands were suddenly closed and hostile.

265 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:07:09pm

re: #253 SixDegrees

And it seems to work extremely well in Indonesia, among other places. Indonesia has the largest Muslim population on the planet, and is singularly unafflicted by the bullshit peddled elsewhere.

The bullshit, in fact, emanates pretty much exclusively from a single sect of Islam - Wahabism. The bulk of Mulsims neither teach, preach or accept the bullshit, anymore than Christians scramble around nowadays looking for witches to burn or adulterers to stone. Shall I make a short trip to the Web and produce a few closely-spaced pages of Biblical passages every bit as violent as what is claimed for the Koran?

It's very similar to making the leap from the fact that a small sect of Christians believes the earth is a few thousand years old to the conclusions that all Christians are retarded knuckled-draggers. It doesn't even come close to representing a majority of what Christians believe, and certainly doesn't speak for the doctrinal views held by the vast majority of Christian sects.

I would like you to make a short trip to the hebrew scriptures and show me any violent COMMAND that is applicable to this very day?

A violent command that is in full force today, beholden to all Jews to continue to carry out, in fear of death and total damnation.

Chapter and verse please (any translation you want, or the original hebrew if needed, thanks)

266 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:08:24pm

re: #258 Walter L. Newton

Islam is not fundamentally violent, the Koran is, with in full force commands that are applicable to this day. You don't know the hebrew scriptures if you are claiming that they follow the same track as the Koran. Or you don't know either book.

I never said, anywhere, in this thread or any thread that Islam is fundamentally violent.

I like you, but you tend to always "elaborate" what someone said when you are answering. If you want to debate with me, do not "add" to my narrative, I can explain myself quite well.

Sorry Walter, I'm talking about the discussion going on at large in the thread, and don't mean to impute that view to *you* in particular.

You're right--I do tend to do this when answering someone. It's not an attempt to embroider what you (or whoever I am addressing) said, but because I'm talking about what others are saying as well.

i certainly don't mean to put words in your mouth (or your comment!). Hopefully you'll know that in future, and i will also make more of an effort to ensure you (or whoever I'm addressing) knows when I'm talking about 'the conversation', not them in particular.

267 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:08:27pm

They are trying to mainstream a blood libel meme that's been used against other groups in the past. I remember reading similar tarring through biological references at GoV and other spots a couple years ago or more. Saying Muslims are a fatal disease in the body of Europe is not only wrong, it's a way to dehumanize people.

268 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:08:34pm

Not to be pedantic, but in the interest of precision -- there's something that always bothers me when people say "Islam is fundamentally violent," or "the Koran is fundamentally violent."

The point is this: Islam is a religion. The Koran is a book. Last time I checked, neither religions nor books were capable of actually committing physical violence. Religions are collections of spiritual ideas. Books are inanimate objects. They can't reach out and club you with a monkey wrench.

When you say "Islam is fundamentally violent," aren't you really saying "Muslims are fundamentally violent?" Because Muslims -- people -- are the actual agents of violence, not their religion and not their book.

People can be inspired by books and religions to commit violence, and Islam has no monopoly on this sad phenomenon. But people can also follow religions -- and most religions have violent histories -- and choose not to be inspired to commit violence.

269 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:09:01pm

re: #265 Walter L. Newton

I would like you to make a short trip to the hebrew scriptures and show me any violent COMMAND that is applicable to this very day?

A violent command that is in full force today, beholden to all Jews to continue to carry out, in fear of death and total damnation.

Chapter and verse please (any translation you want, or the original hebrew if needed, thanks)

And #253 SixDegrees, I have to leave for work now, maybe I shouldn't have dropped this in you lap and then run, but, you can always click on my name and go to my website and find my email address and email me your answer.

Thanks.

BB later this evening after the show.

270 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:09:08pm

re: #265 Walter L. Newton

I would like you to make a short trip to the hebrew scriptures and show me any violent COMMAND that is applicable to this very day?

A violent command that is in full force today, beholden to all Jews to continue to carry out, in fear of death and total damnation.

Chapter and verse please (any translation you want, or the original hebrew if needed, thanks)

Yep. The violent commands in the O.T. were specific to a certian situations, and had a term that expired.

Those in the Koran do not, and if one wants to truly follow Mo, they are applicable today.

271 hazzyday  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:09:16pm

re: #253 SixDegrees

Christians killed in Indonesia Indonesia is one of those backwards muslim states.

272 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:09:33pm

re: #261 iceweasel

Every time people want to condemn all of Islam I want to ask if I should take the knuckledragging creationist sects of Christianity as representative of 'all' Christianity. Of course I shouldn't, and I don't, because I know they're fringe. Yet others don't want to believe this about Wahabbism in relation to Islam.

This "fringe" is remarkably geographically widespread, however. (In no small part due to petrodollars funding the radicalization of mosques in places as far flung as Xinjiang, China, and Thailand, and Chechenya, etc.)

273 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:10:23pm

re: #253 SixDegrees

It works extremely well other than a few blown-up churches, international hotels, discos (full of Australians), and beheaded school children.

274 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:10:24pm

re: #243 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

“A wave of coups threatens to sweep away many Latin American governments,” Castro wrote. “The authority of many civilian governments in Central and South America will become weakened.”

Golly, Fidel, refresh my memory.... how many free and fair elections did you win again?

275 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:11:06pm

re: #271 hazzyday

Christians killed in Indonesia Indonesia is one of those backwards muslim states.

Yup. Christians, et. all, are second-class citizens there. To be sure, Indonesia is not as overtly insane as Saudi Arabia or Iran, but it's still backwards.

276 capitalist piglet  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:11:08pm

re: #242 Right Brain

Mr. Griffin certainly has not made himself very attractive by his past actions, that noted, I don't see that his comments regarding Islam vary substantially from those made by Christopher Hitchens, Mark Steyn (whose tract American Alone is a broadside against Islam taking over the West), Pim Fortuyn, or Winston Churchill for that matter, who once stated that Islam in a man is as dangerous as rabies in a dog (a text I learned about on this web-site).

I am friendly with a perfectly lovely Muslim family who have lived in my neighborhood for six years. Sometimes I wonder what some of these outspoken critics of an entire religion would do with their four beautiful little girls, who don't avoid me because I'm a Christian, and who squeal with delight when they're outside riding their tricycles and see me walking my dogs.

I like Mark Steyn and I understand his point in America Alone, but I wish people would use just a touch more nuance when identifying the problem.

277 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:11:32pm

re: #274 Occasional Reader

Golly, Fidel, refresh my memory.... how many free and fair elections did you win again?

By HIS definition of free and fair, all of them.

278 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:12:02pm

re: #274 Occasional Reader

Golly, Fidel, refresh my memory.... how many free and fair elections did you win again?

Do as I say, not as I do......

279 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:12:25pm

After attempting to properly balance/chlorinate the pool (fingers crossed), I finally got around to checking out Spencer's list of books per the suggestions from the last thread. I requested "Onward Muslim Soldiers" from the Library here in town and will hopefully get it in a week or two. Figured it was better to borrow it than to buy it.

As to the topic of this thread, the word "Cancer" is rivaled only by the word "Nazi" in it's overuse and inappropriate application. Manny Ramirez was a cancer, Allen Iverson was a cancer, Bush was a cancer, Global Warming is a cancer, etc., etc., etc....
Islam as preached and practiced by it's acknowledged leaders (the Mullahs, the Ayatollahs and the Imams) is in fact a detriment to all the things Griffin says it is.
As far as I can tell, one cannot (logically) simultaneously support modern Islam and respect Women's Rights/Freedom of Religion/Separation of Church and State, etc.
Sure people can work to change what modern Islam is, but that's a job best left to Muslims. In the meantime it's best that the West deal with them as they are, rather than how we wished they were.

280 Honcho  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:12:43pm

I have to say, none of us lizards is really addressing the matter at hand, and as a Hitchens-loving, neocon philosemite I would rather watch "Flicka" than read all this narcissist crap.

281 capitalist piglet  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:13:09pm

re: #276 capitalist piglet

I am friendly with a perfectly lovely Muslim family who have lived in my neighborhood for six years. Sometimes I wonder what some of these outspoken critics of an entire religion would do with their four beautiful little girls, who don't avoid me because I'm a Christian, and who squeal with delight when they're outside riding their tricycles and see me walking my dogs.

I like Mark Steyn and I understand his point in America Alone, but I wish people would use just a touch more nuance when identifying the problem.

I should say that Steyn is probably a poor example, because I don't doubt that he understands the difference between a violent individual bent on jihad and a little American Muslim girl on a tricycle.

It's really some of the others my comment was aimed toward.

282 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:15:10pm

re: #268 Charles

The example of Mohammed shows that Islam is not like other religions with violent histories, I would argue.

Unless one can think of another religion that was founded by a warlord.

As I said upthread, Muslims can be moderate or peaceful to the extent that they don't follow Mohammed's example.

283 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:16:13pm

re: #268 Charles

When you say "Islam is fundamentally violent," aren't you really saying "Muslims are fundamentally violent?"

Not necessarily. A philosophy could, in theory, have violence as a fundamental tenet, but that tenet could in practice be ignored by many of its followers, at least during a certain period in history.

Personally, rather than "fundamentally violent", I prefer the observation I made above, that Islam is fundamentally a "conquest ideology". (I honestly don't know if that observation is original, or if I gleaned it elsewhere.) That does not mean that its followers will always and everywhere use violence and/or attempt to subjugate others; but the exhortation to do so lies at the core of the religion.

As we are all painfully aware, "jihad" does NOT mean "peaceful internal struggle". The great labor is to isolate the tendencies in Islam that push jihad, and provide oxygen to the more modern tendencies.

(By the way, SixDegrees mentioned Indonesia above as an example of tolerant Islam; I can't help but remember the multiple threads here at LGF about how the Bali bombers, while it's true they were tried and convicted, were treated as something close to folk heroes.)

284 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:16:17pm

re: #268 Charles

Not to be pedantic, but in the interest of precision -- there's something that always bothers me when people say "Islam is fundamentally violent," or "the Koran is fundamentally violent."

The point is this: Islam is a religion. The Koran is a book. Last time I checked, neither religions nor books were capable of actually committing physical violence. Religions are collections of spiritual ideas. Books are inanimate objects.

When you say "Islam is fundamentally violent," aren't you really saying "Muslims are fundamentally violent?" Because Muslims -- people -- are the actual agents of violence, not their religion and not their book.

People can be inspired by books and religions to commit violence, and Islam has no monopoly on this sad phenomenon. But people can also follow religions -- and most religions have violent histories -- and choose not to be inspired to commit violence.

To be super-pedantic, what people mean to say is that Islam is intrinsically violent, or that violence is intrinsic to the teachings of the Koran. As you point out, neither a book nor a religion can be violent.

Sometimes, some people who say this DO mean that 'muslims are fundamentally violent', because they think of 'muslims' as a separate group, as set apart.

Other, slightly less racist people are saying that violence is intrinsic to Islam or the Koran; that is, that violence is fundamentally entwined within the teachings of Islam/within the koran.

It goes almost without saying that both groups are wrong. Muslims are not fundamentally violent, and there is nothing intrinsic to or inherent in Islam or the Koran that would make followers violent.

285 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:16:19pm

re: #280 Honcho

I have to say, none of us lizards is really addressing the matter at hand, and as a Hitchens-loving, neocon philosemite I would rather watch "Flicka" than read all this narcissist crap.

And the matter at hand is? (I'm not being sarcastic, I really would like to know.)

286 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:17:45pm

re: #282 Dar ul Harb

The example of Mohammed shows that Islam is not like other religions with violent histories, I would argue.

Unless one can think of another religion that was founded by a warlord.

As I said upthread, Muslims can be moderate or peaceful to the extent that they don't follow Mohammed's example.

Enough Christians don't follow the examples they were given.

Just saying....

287 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:17:51pm

re: #141 Charles

I don't deny that in more backward parts of the world, the killing of apostates does happen. How could I deny it? I've posted many examples of it here. But my point stands -- if Islam itself was "fundamentally violent," there should be no place in the world where apostates would be safe.

Some part of the fatwa is just theater and not necessarily meant to be carried out.

OTOH, neither was, "Won't somebody rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

288 Truck Monkey  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:18:10pm

re: #280 Honcho

I have to say, none of us lizards is really addressing the matter at hand, and as a Hitchens-loving, neocon philosemite I would rather watch "Flicka" than read all this narcissist crap.

SHIT! Flickas on?

/out

289 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:19:00pm

re: #262 Walter L. Newton

I know that.

I know you do; I was agreeing with you.

290 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:20:05pm

re: #276 capitalist piglet

You are confusing the lovely people with an ideology that they have chosen to pick and choose beliefs from. It is a completely different thing when that same ideology is imposed by theocrats who believe they are doing "god's will." A big chunk of my life was spent working in Muslim cultures in Europe, Africa, and, yes, Indonesia. The people I met in those places were as fine as any Nebraskan Christian, Texan Jew, or Californian cultist. But when Islamic ideology becomes the law of the land, disaster follows, regardless of how wonderful the individuals are.

291 hazzyday  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:20:53pm

re: #268 Charles

It's an interesting point. It might seem more like it's an evolution in culture that makes a religion peaceful. A lot of these places where we see violent muslims have underlying violent cultures that export the culture as islam.

There are probably many peaceful people in the most violent of cultures. Just that they have a hard time being heard.

IMO Jesus is fundamentally different then Mohammed. One professes love, one professes war. Violence encapsulated both religions, but as the efforts of sinners. Can Islam achieve a reformation? Probably yes, and it probably has to start in the west. It has to involve a rejection of sharia.

I find individual muslims to be very nice people. But they tend to seethe when asked if Israel should exist. There is a backwards emphasis here that the religion carries from it's cultures that has an explosive violent potential.

While I disagree with Pres Obama on most all, I do notice he is saying to the world "Let's stop all this bullshit". I would be fine if the bullshit in Saudi Arabia stopped and a better type of Islam evovled. Tough road though.

292 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:21:00pm
293 Gus  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:21:20pm

"Krisztina Morvai, would you care to comment on the obscene, sexual comments you made regarding Hungarian Jews?'

"I am not here to discuss that, you are, I am here to discuss my accomplishments in human rights."

Human rights? Is that how one masks there extremism in the EU? By claiming to be an expert or proponent of humans rights?

Regarding her past controversies:

In the UN Womens Rights Committee Morvai conducted research into what she called the "inhumane living conditions" of Palestinian women which resulted in a complaint being filed against her by the Israeli government. In 2006, after she was removed from her UN position, she complained that this was due to Israeli political pressure which resulted in her losing her seat and being replaced by an Hungarian Jewish woman, Andrea Petõ, whom she described as 'a well-known zionist activist'. Pető, actually an activist of the feminist, Jewish traditionalist cultural foundation Esztertáska, did not receive the necessary votes to be confirmed to the Committee. In March 2009 the Jewish Telegraphic Agency and Jungle World quoted an undated and otherwise unreported speech in 2008 in which Morvai "advised" the "liberal-bolshevick zionists" to "start thinking of where to flee and where to hide". Morvai made a similar suggestion in a letter addressed to the editors of the weekly Élet és Irodalom. In this letter Morvai also criticized the editors of "Élet és Irodalom," because they did not protest against the words of Israeli President Shimon Peres, who said that "Israel is buying up Hungary". In 2009 she came most recently to international public attention when an obscene and antisemitic message was posted on a Hungarian website's forum and signed with her name, causing great offence and outrage. Morvai is married to György Baló, a Hungarian television reporter of Jewish origin.

She was elected under the list of Movement for a Better Hungary:

The Movement for a Better Hungary (Jobbik Magyarországért Mozgalom, or Jobbik (The Better One) for short) is a radical party with strong elements of nationalism often labelled as anti-Semitic or fascist. The party's credo is to support the Hungarian minorities to reach self-determination and autonomy. Its predecessor was founded in 2002 as the Right-wing Youth Community (Jobboldali Ifjúsági Közösség – Jobbik), which consisted mainly of university students; it was organized as a party in 2003. Besides MIÉP, which lost most of its voters, the Movement for a Better Hungary is one of the best-known far right formations in Hungary. At the European Parliament election, Jobbik has won 3 seats in the European Parliament, coming close to even beating the ruling Socialist Party.

The EU, BNP, VB, European fascist insanity continues.

294 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:22:05pm

It's these kind of findings that make me at times pessimistic about the future of "moderate Islam". (Check out the table on "suicide bombings justifiable?".)

295 Render  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:22:36pm

re: #256 Charles

(not exactly for your benefit)

[Link: render64.wordpress.com...]

The last time the BNP won an election was in 1993. Back in those days the BNP was begging Libyan strongman Qaddaffi ('86) for money and the BNP "security" group Combat 18 was getting busted making deals with the IRA.

THE
MIRROR,
R

296 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:22:37pm

re: #286 FurryOldGuyJeans

Enough Christians don't follow the examples they were given.

Just saying....

But the result you get if the Christians follow Jesus' example are very different than what you get if Muslims seek to emulate Muhammad.

(Point taken that if one really wants to live a Christlike life, it's extraordinarily difficult).

297 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:23:39pm

re: #284 iceweasel

As you point out, neither a book nor a religion can be violent.

What if the book falls off the shelf onto your big toe?

298 hazzyday  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:24:05pm

re: #284 iceweasel

Other, slightly less racist people


Why do you use the term racist here? I see people do this. But it doesn't fit my definition.

299 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:24:29pm

re: #296 Dar ul Harb

(Point taken that if one really wants to live a Christlike life, it's extraordinarily difficult).

I'm wearing sandals at the moment, and I haven't yet shaven today. I'd say that's a good start?

/

300 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:25:00pm

re: #298 hazzyday

Why do you use the term racist here? I see people do this. But it doesn't fit my definition.

I got lost there as well.

301 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:25:28pm

re: #299 Occasional Reader

Only if you had fried fish for breakfast.

302 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:25:51pm

re: #108 Christene

Don't care who said it,..I couldn't agree w/him more!

Hooray for nazis! Yay!

(You might want to think about that a little more.)

303 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:25:54pm

Mosquitoes are fundmentally violent... time to move in, off the patio.

304 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:26:14pm

re: #294 Occasional Reader

That table (and the countless other news stories/polls that show similar numbers every year) is the antidote to people who like to claim there is "no difference" between Christianity and Islam. If the Pope told me that suicide- bombing a day care center was the way to salvation, I'd tell the Holy Father to go screw himself.
Somehow, that disconnect doesn't seem to happen in modern Islam.

305 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:26:54pm

re: #300 debutaunt

nuance is important.

306 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:26:57pm

re: #263 MandyManners

In the New Testament?

The Old Testament was nailed to the Cross and no longer holds sway for Christians.

Tell that to those assholes who protest at soldier's funerals because of Biblical admonitions against homosexuality. Or to the guy who shot the abortion doctor in his own church last month. To the practitioners of Manifest Destiny. Or the missionaries who decimated South American tribes by the millions. Or to thousands upon thousands of others who justify the most extreme violence by reference to Biblical passages. These aren't Jews; they're Christians, who explicitly accept the New Testament along with the Old, and who draw the justification for their violence straight from both.

Meanwhile, back in the New Testament, there is no shortage of cruelty and violence practiced and promoted, and no revocation of Old Testament laws.

I'm well aware that such isn't the message taught today. And many of the excerpts cited are misinterpretations or are taken out of a larger context. That's what happens when you read the Bible through a toilet paper tube. The point is that the same thing happens when you read the Koran the same way. Claiming that Islam explicitly teaches violence because of individual passages in the Koran is no different from the same claim made against Christianity when using the Bible as source material; it's cherry picking with the goal of forcing a predetermined conclusion.

307 Shug  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:27:11pm

re: #302 Sharmuta

Hooray for nazis! Yay!

(You might want to think about that a little more.)


good luck

308 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:27:12pm

re: #299 Occasional Reader

I'm wearing sandals at the moment, and I haven't yet shaven today. I'd say that's a good start?

/

Tell me you haven't given your garments away to the poor.

/

309 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:27:16pm

re: #284 iceweasel


Other, slightly less racist people are saying that violence is intrinsic to Islam or the Koran; that is, that violence is fundamentally entwined within the teachings of Islam/within the koran.

It goes almost without saying that both groups are wrong. Muslims are not fundamentally violent, and there is nothing intrinsic to or inherent in Islam or the Koran that would make followers violent.

Would "bigoted" be a better word than racist?

310 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:27:51pm

re: #303 Occasional Reader

Mosquitoes are fundmentally violent... time to move in, off the patio.

Just apologize to them and they will leave you alone.

/ that is Our Man Obama's strategy, isn't it?

311 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:28:15pm

re: #284 iceweasel

Islam is not a race.

312 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:28:17pm

re: #273 shiek al beif salami

It works extremely well other than a few blown-up churches, international hotels, discos (full of Australians), and beheaded school children.

I'll see your blown-up nightclubs and raise you Manifest Destiny.

313 Bloodnok  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:28:25pm

re: #279 Lincolntf

After attempting to properly balance/chlorinate the pool (fingers crossed), I finally got around to checking out Spencer's list of books per the suggestions from the last thread. I requested "Onward Muslim Soldiers" from the Library here in town and will hopefully get it in a week or two. Figured it was better to borrow it than to buy it.

As to the topic of this thread, the word "Cancer" is rivaled only by the word "Nazi" in it's overuse and inappropriate application. Manny Ramirez was a cancer, Allen Iverson was a cancer, Bush was a cancer, Global Warming is a cancer, etc., etc., etc....
Islam as preached and practiced by it's acknowledged leaders (the Mullahs, the Ayatollahs and the Imams) is in fact a detriment to all the things Griffin says it is.
As far as I can tell, one cannot (logically) simultaneously support modern Islam and respect Women's Rights/Freedom of Religion/Separation of Church and State, etc.
Sure people can work to change what modern Islam is, but that's a job best left to Muslims. In the meantime it's best that the West deal with them as they are, rather than how we wished they were.

Those weren't suggestions. If anything they were saying "Read this stuff (LGF Links) and not his books."

314 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:28:27pm

re: #308 Dar ul Harb

Tell me you haven't given your garments away to the poor.

/

I'm not against a trip to Goodwill--need to make one myself to donate some one-size-to-small boy's clothes, but please, please, please...

Keep the clothes on, 'kay?

315 Mithrax  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:28:39pm

re: #306 SixDegrees

it's cherry picking with the goal of forcing a predetermined conclusion.

Because it seems that everyone else is being pedantic in this thread :P, the proper term used in scriptural scholarship circiles is "prooftexting".

316 pink freud  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:28:48pm

Former Jordanian Prime Minister Abd Al-Raouf Al-Rawabdeh: Israel - A Cancer That Must Be Eradicated

317 Gus  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:29:28pm

re: #310 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just apologize to them and they will leave you alone.

/ that is Our Man Obama's strategy, isn't it?

Mr. Mosquito, I apologize for DDT.

//Obama

/

318 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:29:31pm

re: #306 SixDegrees

Or the missionaries who decimated South American tribes by the millions.

The missionaries did that? Wow! Those guys were some serious bad-asses to be able to intentionally kill that many people.

////

319 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:29:58pm

re: #316 pink freud

Yeah, I saw that in the sidebar RSS feed too.

320 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:30:24pm

re: #315 Mithrax

Because it seems that everyone else is being pedantic in this thread :P, the proper term used in scriptural scholarship circiles is "prooftexting".

Thank you. I wasn't aware of that term. It's a perfect fit.

321 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:30:32pm

re: #313 Bloodnok

That's just me, I also prefer actually seeing a movie to just reading the reviews.

322 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:30:42pm

re: #312 SixDegrees

I'll see your blown-up nightclubs and raise you Manifest Destiny.

You've got to be kidding me.

This is one of the sloppiest examples of moral equivalence I've ever seen at this blog. Honestly, I expected more from you.

323 Fuad Al'Razi  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:31:00pm

re: #309 austin_blue

On the contrary, the theological texts of Islam present a set of ideals to be reached of subjugation of the non-believers in any way possible. Islam is Totalitarianism.

Reject Islam, then you must be our slave, or die.

324 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:31:06pm

re: #318 Occasional Reader

The missionaries did that? Wow! Those guys were some serious bad-asses to be able to intentionally kill that many people.

////

Once they got into position all hell broke loose.

325 Mithrax  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:31:36pm

re: #324 debutaunt

Once they got into position all hell broke loose.

Yeah but clergy do it on their knees! :P

326 hazzyday  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:31:56pm

re: #306 SixDegrees

To be considered Holy in the Old testament you had to sacrifice animals. Dip your fingers in blood, wash entrails, dispose of fat. And it seemed to occupy a lot of time and money. The death of Christ is said to have removed the need for these types of sacrifices. But in some form today we still see religious people thinking killing someone else is a act of divinity instead of an act of depravity. Poor listeners.

327 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:32:40pm

re: #324 debutaunt

Once they got into position all hell broke loose.

Indeed, they were quite doggymatic.

328 jvic  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:32:44pm

re: #214 iceweasel

...Consider the Old Testament. THAT is a bloody, violent, vengeful text-- and it bears almost no relation to Judaism as anyone I know practices Judaism. Even the Torah--maybe especially the Torah!-- is also filled with similar stories.

And anyone who wanted to just point to either text and claim it literally stands for the teaching of Judaism would be flagrantly wrong.

Ice, I share your hopes and admire your goodwill, but reason--cold, amoral reason--has reasons that the heart knows not of.

The path between those bloody vengeful documents and modern Judaism involved the Romans destroying Israel and turning the Jews into persecuted wanderers.

Btw, I recently mentioned someone who practices Judaism rather differently than your Jewish friends and mine. The details are in the post and links, but my bottom line was:

However, if I come to believe that Yamit82's vile bigotry reflects Israeli opinion at large, I will conclude that Israel has discarded its moral claim and my support will end. It's easy to draw a conclusion about a site that allows comments like Yamit82's.

(Btw, at the moment, the Israpundit front page includes an ad for Geert Wilders.)

329 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:32:49pm

re: #297 Occasional Reader

What if the book falls off the shelf onto your big toe?

that's when I get violent using it!

//prolly not what you meant. :(

330 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:35:04pm

re: #312 SixDegrees

I'm a Galtist, so I disagree with both premises.

331 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:35:07pm

From Reuters, October 16, 2006:

JAKARTA, Oct 15 (Reuters) - Around one in 10 Indonesian Muslims support jihad and justify bomb attacks on Indonesia's tourist island of Bali as defending the faith, a survey released on Sunday showed.

332 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:35:20pm

"Talks resume in addressing California's $26 billion deficit."

Hah! Try to catch up America!

333 kwinn00  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:35:41pm

The loran dose have many "fundamentally violent" passages. Soe bigoted isnt a better word, "realist" is. Look in The Koran’s 164 Jihad Verse. See for your self. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

334 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:35:43pm

re: #311 MandyManners

Islam is not a race.

No kidding.

335 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:36:04pm

re: #323 Fuad Al'Razi

On the contrary, the theological texts of Islam present a set of ideals to be reached of subjugation of the non-believers in any way possible. Islam is Totalitarianism.

Reject Islam, then you must be our slave, or die.

Odd, the Pakistanis who run the convenience store down the street don't want to subjugate or enslave me. They want to sell me Anchor Steam and Camel filters!

336 Shug  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:36:04pm

re: #306 SixDegrees

it's cherry picking with the goal of forcing a predetermined conclusion.

thousands of spoldeydopes disagree.
Fred Phelps is a douchebag but he doesn't blow shit up

337 astronmr20  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:36:06pm

re: #295 Render

(not exactly for your benefit)

[Link: render64.wordpress.com...]

The last time the BNP won an election was in 1993. Back in those days the BNP was begging Libyan strongman Qaddaffi ('86) for money and the BNP "security" group Combat 18 was getting busted making deals with the IRA.

THE
MIRROR,
R

Good find!

Charles might want to add this. These people should be exposed for all who they are.

338 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:37:21pm

re: #309 austin_blue

Other, slightly less racist people are saying that violence is intrinsic to Islam or the Koran; that is, that violence is fundamentally entwined within the teachings of Islam/within the koran.

It goes almost without saying that both groups are wrong. Muslims are not fundamentally violent, and there is nothing intrinsic to or inherent in Islam or the Koran that would make followers violent.

Would "bigoted" be a better word than racist?

Yes, thanks.

Some of them are racist, because they incorrectly take 'muslim' to be a race-- this came up much earlier in the thread. Bigoted is a much better word to cover the full spectrum.

339 hazzyday  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:37:21pm

re: #306 SixDegrees

The comparison there would be the same if the United States was run by creationists who erred to make their positions enforceable by death.

No doubt if we juggle history we can see the same things. But Christianity has turned over a new leaf in world history. Western Democracy moderated it along with the human need to be free. Although crisis in capitalism by greedy ponzie people is making the road rough to follow.

340 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:37:27pm

re: #331 Occasional Reader

A small minority.

What's a few million "fringers," after all?

341 Bloodnok  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:38:09pm

re: #321 Lincolntf

That's just me, I also prefer actually seeing a movie to just reading the reviews.

Let me know when he gets to the part in his books where he calls Charles a liar (and worse) and blames him for (among other things) his own folly in signing up for a Turkish fascist group's racist Facebook site. You can also tell me about the part where he attends the Pro Koln conference.

Oh wait, that stuff isn't in his books, it is in the rantings of his spittle-flecked blog. More than a few people here have been surprised that the person they "read" in his books is not the person he has revealed himself to be on his blog and by his actions. We were simply trying to let you know these things were out there. They are worth looking into if those sorts of things matter to you.

342 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:39:45pm

Thread seems to be petering out.... Later.

343 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:39:46pm

re: #267 Thanos

They are trying to mainstream a blood libel meme that's been used against other groups in the past. I remember reading similar tarring through biological references at GoV and other spots a couple years ago or more. Saying Muslims are a fatal disease in the body of Europe is not only wrong, it's a way to dehumanize people.

A lot of people like to use the "islam is a disease" meme. And while I agree with your comments, I would just add it not only dehumanizes people, it alienates them from non-muslims. Just like the radical islamists want.

344 swamprat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:39:59pm

re: #312 SixDegrees

I'll see your blown-up nightclubs and raise you Manifest Destiny.

The actual millions* killed by godless, atheistic communists.
Your move

*(bs claims of missionaries "decimating millions" in bs links, not withstanding)

345 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:40:56pm

re: #328 jvic

I like your inversion of "the heart has its reasons wherefore reason knows not". :)

(or whatever the original is....something like that.)

((BTW-- I did read that post before too; still pondering it))

346 capitalist piglet  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:41:36pm

re: #290 shiek al beif salami

You are confusing the lovely people with an ideology that they have chosen to pick and choose beliefs from. It is a completely different thing when that same ideology is imposed by theocrats who believe they are doing "god's will." A big chunk of my life was spent working in Muslim cultures in Europe, Africa, and, yes, Indonesia. The people I met in those places were as fine as any Nebraskan Christian, Texan Jew, or Californian cultist. But when Islamic ideology becomes the law of the land, disaster follows, regardless of how wonderful the individuals are.

I'm sorry - you'll have to show me where you got the idea that I'm confusing anything. My neighbors are not jihadis. They're just people, trying to live in peace and raise a family in a typical American suburb.

I made no commentary on Islamic ideology becoming the law of the land. I merely intended to acknowledge that there is a line between concern and bigotry, and it's a good idea to check yourself on occasion, and make sure you're on the side of it that you want to be.

I want to be on the side that doesn't automatically assume someone who practices Islam is plotting to blow me up. I can't speak for anyone else.

I think you're seeing something in my post that isn't there.

347 Mithrax  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:41:45pm

Hmmm..

More music!

The Tragically Hip - Nautical Disaster

348 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:42:26pm

re: #338 iceweasel

So one is racist if one hates people because of the color of their skin? Check.

So one is a bigot if one hates a person's culture or ethnicity? Check.

So what is one if one fervently disagrees with a person's ideology after reasonably and rationally assessing it? ______.

349 dekalb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:42:31pm

I don't know what kind of cure Mr. Griffin has in mind, but I do think that he is right that Islam is a threat to civilization, just like Nazism and Communism. I understand the difference between Islam and Muslims, the latter being often those who are influenced by the prevailing islamic influences where they live and/or with whom they live.

Many Russians, and maybe the majority until the late 1980s, were fine living with the Soviet ideology and may have acutally believed some of it. That did not stop the West's successful fight against communism, and that ideology is pretty unfashionable now. I would like to see a similar struggle against Islam so that it joins Marxism in history's garbage dump.

350 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:42:31pm

re: #341 Bloodnok

Maybe they are.
But I'll read the man's books before I judge him. Spats between bloggers (as soon as you replied I remembered that this was indeed a big topic when I first got here, including the Atlas thing and a bunch of other spin-off issues) probably won't inform my worldview very much, but I'll check them out after I'm done reading.

351 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:42:34pm

re: #333 kwinn00

Sleeper.

352 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:43:28pm

re: #351 Charles

And either a really bad typist, or not an English speaker.

353 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:43:38pm

re: #350 Lincolntf

Maybe they are.
But I'll read the man's books before I judge him. Spats between bloggers (as soon as you replied I remembered that this was indeed a big topic when I first got here, including the Atlas thing and a bunch of other spin-off issues) probably won't inform my worldview very much, but I'll check them out after I'm done reading.

Excuse me, but there's a lot more to the story than a "spat."

354 Catttt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:44:03pm

You all know that this is wrong - you cannot demonize an entire set or class of humanity. This ALWAYS IS WRONG.

I have Muslim friends, including one young lady who wears a headscarf. Religion is not an issue - we have much in common and have no issues with religion!

She would surely be a target for Mr. Griffin. This makes him her enemy. This makes him my enemy, because she is my friend.

355 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:44:21pm

re: #65good discussing is about ideas

New Testament is peaceful, for the most part. The Old Testament doesn't have a whole lot of turn the other cheek.


The line that Judaism is a religion of strict application of law and not one of mercy is incorrect and has always been used in attempt to delegitimatize Judaism. The story line that God was a jealous God but transformed himself into a God of love is the Christian story line. It is not the way Judaism views itself. I wish to be careful to not seem as though I am arguing against Christianity but I do certainly wish to stand up for Judaism.

The concept of love thy neighbor as thyself is at the heart of the Teaching - which is what the word Torah would translate into if concepts in language could be mapped bijectively). Concepts such as "an eye for an eye" have been misinterpreted. In the process the Hebrew bible has been stripped of its value as great literature - and great it is. Essentially the Hebrew bible is like an ancient Dr Benjamin Spock book on how to raise a person so as to be both strong and righteous.
Just to speculate - and admittedly go over the top - Superman of comic strip lore is probably Jewish. He is probably a modern interpretation of Abraham - who story line demonstrates hospitality among other traits.

356 Shug  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:44:49pm
357 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:45:19pm

re: #322 Occasional Reader

You've got to be kidding me.

This is one of the sloppiest examples of moral equivalence I've ever seen at this blog. Honestly, I expected more from you.

It's perfectly suited to the discussion at hand, a shining example of Christianity applied to the extermination of an entire continent's people who had the misfortune not to be Christians.

It was worse in South America, run by Christians whom the Enlightenment seems to have bypassed, and who really devoted themselves to slaughter with a zeal unequaled elsewhere.

And using the attacks in Indonesia to tar an entire religion is repugnantly bigoted and small-minded. If that's the sort of argument that's going to be made, don't expect restraint from me when pointing out how stupid and barbarous it is.

358 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:45:24pm

re: #65 pingjockey
I'll give you an upding in attempt to show brotherhood!

359 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:45:41pm

re: #333 kwinn00

The loran dose have many "fundamentally violent" passages.

Navigational aids certainly are a problem.

/.. LORAN

360 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:46:26pm

re: #353 Charles

I assiduosly avoided the not-a-spat when I first got here because I didn't know any of the players. I'll definitely look into it more once I've read at least one of his books.

361 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:46:45pm

re: #344 swamprat

The actual millions* killed by godless, atheistic communists.
Your move

Completely outside the entire realm of this discussion. Feel free to start another topic if you like, but it's on a different subject.

362 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:46:59pm

re: #343 Sharmuta

A lot of people like to use the "islam is a disease" meme. And while I agree with your comments, I would just add it not only dehumanizes people, it alienates them from non-muslims. Just like the radical islamists want.

Also-- let's all remember that this rhetoric of a cancer, a disease, an infection-- all these exact same images were used by the Nazis from 29 onwards. Portraying the Jews as an 'infection in the blood' and a 'cancer on the body politic', and ultimately as a virus or parasite that had to be killed before it killed the host--these were all images deliberately and repeatedly invoked by the Nazis and this paved the way not only for genocide but for the specific form of the genocide: cold, mechanised, 'hygenic', sterile. It was portrayed as essential to the health of the German people as a people, and this nationalistic, racist ideal was grounded in very specific bodily imagery about disease and parasites and infections in the blood.

363 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:47:03pm

re: #359 FurryOldGuyJeans

Navigational aids certainly are a problem.

/.. LORAN

And I guess you could use the LORAN to guide you through some fundamentally violent passages out in the ocean. I'll bet Odysseus could have used one.

364 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:47:43pm

re: #333 kwinn00

The loran dose have many "fundamentally violent" passages.

I'm sure my GPS does, too.

And so does the Bible.

365 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:47:47pm

re: #313 Bloodnok

Those weren't suggestions. If anything they were saying "Read this stuff (LGF Links) and not his books."

Indeed- I wouldn't recommend a spencer book to anyone now that he's revealed the types of associates he's willing to keep. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

366 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:48:26pm

re: #354 Catttt

You are absolutely right about not judging people as a class or a group (contemporary America to the contrary notwithstanding), but we do have a right and every responsibility to judge ideas, and religions, alas, are ideas.

367 capitalist piglet  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:48:33pm

re: #316 pink freud

Former Jordanian Prime Minister Abd Al-Raouf Al-Rawabdeh: Israel - A Cancer That Must Be Eradicated

Vile. Sick bastard.

368 Render  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:49:00pm

re: #337 astronmr20

[Link: www.casttv.com...]

Too bad that video itself has been pulled from the source...

[Link: www.casttv.com...]

But that one is still up.

===

Googlesearch terms: "Nick Griffin Qaddafi" and "Nick Griffin Farrakhan"

For the sake of accuracy, Griffin wasn't in the BNP when he went begging to Libya. He was still an active member of the National Front (NF) at that time.

For more fun with Google try the search term "John Tyndall David Duke"

MASS
ATROCITY,
R

369 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:49:20pm

re: #363 EmmmieG

And I guess you could use the LORAN to guide you through some fundamentally violent passages out in the ocean. I'll bet Odysseus could have used one.

Never, ever piss of Poseidon. Not even a little bit.

370 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:49:37pm

re: #363 EmmmieG

And I guess you could use the LORAN to guide you through some fundamentally violent passages out in the ocean. I'll bet Odysseus could have used one.

I only remember it being used on the anti-submarine warfare aircraft I worked on when I was a employment-subsidized US Sailor.

371 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:49:41pm

re: #355 Stuart Leviton

Just to speculate - and admittedly go over the top - Superman of comic strip lore is probably Jewish. He is probably a modern interpretation of Abraham - who story line demonstrates hospitality among other traits.

Well, he did have Jewish "parents."

372 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:49:45pm

re: #348 shiek al beif salami

So one is racist if one hates people because of the color of their skin? Check.

So one is a bigot if one hates a person's culture or ethnicity? Check.

So what is one if one fervently disagrees with a person's ideology after reasonably and rationally assessing it? ______.

That depends. I fervently disagree with Orthodox Judaism- to the point that I am going to a lobster boil tonight. And that's fine.

Now, if I tried to prevent Orthodox Jews from freely practicing that religion, I would be a brute.

373 swamprat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:49:57pm

re: #361 SixDegrees

Completely outside the entire realm of this discussion. Feel free to start another topic if you like, but it's on a different subject.


thought so

374 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:49:58pm

re: #360 Lincolntf

I assiduosly avoided the not-a-spat when I first got here because I didn't know any of the players. I'll definitely look into it more once I've read at least one of his books.

You know nothing about the issues involved, but felt it was appropriate to dismiss it as a "spat" anyway. Gotcha.

375 Catttt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:50:26pm

Also, I have a couple of people whom I follow in Twitter and Facebook (Facebook not as much, as I find it very confusing) who are Iranian. They deeply want freedom and a free society.

Even the guy who is a Marxist is still a Muslim - the faith in Allah is very strong for many people. This does not mean they are terrorists. These bloggers want democracy but are still Muslims. They cry "God is Good" all night - they are still doing it - as a prayer for democracy and freedom.

376 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:50:48pm

re: #374 Charles

If it's not a "spat", what word should I use?

377 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:51:04pm
378 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:51:12pm

re: #360 Lincolntf

Yup, not a clue about what went on, but you think you can classify it all as just a spat.

/ geez, what a maroon.

379 Catttt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:51:14pm

re: #366 shiek al beif salami

You are absolutely right about not judging people as a class or a group (contemporary America to the contrary notwithstanding), but we do have a right and every responsibility to judge ideas, and religions, alas, are ideas.

But the people who believe in a given religion are being judged based on that religion. People are more than their religion.

380 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:51:53pm

re: #376 Lincolntf

The words you use are your own choice.

381 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:51:55pm

re: #378 FurryOldGuyJeans

Looking for an appropriate word here... Battle? Conflict? Argument?

382 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:51:59pm

re: #376 Lincolntf

You could actually do some research and empower yourself with knowledge of what happened.

383 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:52:41pm

re: #376 Lincolntf

If it's not a "spat", what word should I use?

It was a shrieking, body-slamming spat.

384 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:52:48pm

re: #214 iceweasel

No. No.

This is flawed. This a fundamentally flawed interpretation of Islam.

Let me put it to you this way: Consider the Old Testament. THAT is a bloody, violent, vengeful text-- and it bears almost no relation to Judaism as anyone I know practices Judaism. Even the Torah--maybe especially the Torah!-- is also filled with similar stories.

And anyone who wanted to just point to either text and claim it literally stands for the teaching of Judaism would be flagrantly wrong.
.
Similarly for these claims about the Koran and Islam.


I profoundly disagree. I gladly offer to teach you the Hebrew bible.

385 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:53:05pm

re: #378 FurryOldGuyJeans

You're the one who used the "just a", not me.

386 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:54:11pm

re: #375 Catttt

Also, I have a couple of people whom I follow in Twitter and Facebook (Facebook not as much, as I find it very confusing) who are Iranian. They deeply want freedom and a free society.

Even the guy who is a Marxist is still a Muslim - the faith in Allah is very strong for many people. This does not mean they are terrorists. These bloggers want democracy but are still Muslims. They cry "God is Good" all night - they are still doing it - as a prayer for democracy and freedom.

That's right. Allahu Akhbar is a prayer for them not only to Allah but for the fate of their nation and the government they long to have. A democracy.

387 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:54:32pm

re: #383 debutaunt

It was a shrieking, body-slamming spat.

Sounds like an acquaintance's family get-together. The cops showing up is a forgone conclusion, the only variable is when.

388 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:55:25pm

re: #360 Lincolntf

I assiduosly avoided the not-a-spat when I first got here because I didn't know any of the players. I'll definitely look into it more once I've read at least one of his books.

Just keep in mind when you're reading him he's a fascist enabler.

389 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:56:03pm

re: #381 Lincolntf

Looking for an appropriate word here... Battle? Conflict? Argument?

Perhaps you can better name the animal after you see what it looks like. Familiarize yourself with the issues involved before you try to characterize the situation.

390 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:56:05pm

re: #236 astronmr20

There are stark differences in the violent passages and nature of these two texts, iceweasel. Stark.

As I did earlier up-thread, let me explain.

In the Old Testament, calls for war or violence by God were very specific to certain situations, and had a specific term with a specific goal. For instance, Jericho. When it was over, it was over. In the Koran, however all calls for violence were open-ended. I.E. "fight them wherever you find them," and the general calls to slay unbelievers had no term- they were for forever.

Eventually, Muhammed needed less and less of a reason to carry out raids and to grow his empire. When he died, he left his followers with instructions to take the fight all over the earth, and follow that decree they did. Ask the unfortunate Hindus after their entire continent was soaked in blood. Meanwhile, Muslims continued to slay and assassinate each other-- even Aisha was not safe.


There are absolutely no calls for "violence" in the Hebrew bible. The word for violence is hamas, just like the terrorist organization. That word appears in the Noah story. When the earth became so debased with violence and corruption, God had no choice but to destroy the world an begin anew - that is according to the story line ... I do not mean to appear to be a fundamentalist.

391 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:56:17pm

re: #382 FurryOldGuyJeans

Actually, I'm being discouraged from doing research and being told to rely on web posts rather than original sources.
I really hope this book is worth all the angst it's generated.

392 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:56:44pm

re: #372 austin_blue

That depends. I fervently disagree with Orthodox Judaism- to the point that I am going to a lobster boil tonight. And that's fine.

Now, if I tried to prevent Orthodox Jews from freely practicing that religion, I would be a brute.

But it might mean an extra lobster for you. Hmmmmm.....

:)

393 Catttt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:56:52pm

Come on. Several years ago, many of us knew that Europe would spawn fascism again. It is a cycle. Mr. Griffin is a fascist - and I do not use the term lightly.

394 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:57:27pm

re: #357 SixDegrees

Who used the attacks on a disco in Indonesia to impugn an entire religion? I guess I don't understand what the intent of your comment is. If someone is critical of the ideas that allowed the bombers to justify their actions, and indeed claim they were doing "god's will", then he has every right to criticize the ideas. It is just silly to call such critique "repugnantly bigoted and small-minded" is just silly.

395 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:57:47pm

re: #391 Lincolntf

Enjoy your jump in the fascism cesspool then.

And that's all I'm saying on the subject

396 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:59:12pm

re: #392 iceweasel

But it might mean an extra lobster for you. Hmmmmm.....

:)

We are boiling up 50 of the Sea Roaches. Got 'em flown in from Portsmouth, NH. I am one of the two dedicated crackers.

397 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 12:59:45pm

re: #391 Lincolntf

Actually, I'm being discouraged from doing research and being told to rely on web posts rather than original sources.
I really hope this book is worth all the angst it's generated.

Again, the angst doesn't come from the books. I read one of RS's books, thought I learned something, then I found out more about RS, and now I can't trust any info I got from him. Go ahead and read whatever he's written. If you view the word at all the way I do, you will come to feel that you have wasted some time.

398 Lincolntf  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:00:28pm

re: #389 wrenchwench

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but my posts had zero to do with Charles, "the spat", or anything else related to LGF when I was met with (mild) derision for mentioning that I was gonna read the guy's book.

Note to self: the word "spat" is a flashpoint.

399 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:00:52pm

re: #379 Catttt

But my point is exactly not judging the people as a group, but to indeed judge an ideology that must change if the world is to survive it.

400 John Neverbend  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:02:55pm

re: #372 austin_blue

I fervently disagree with Orthodox Judaism- to the point that I am going to a lobster boil tonight.

That's a novel way to take a stand against Orthodox Judaism. Have you also considered eating pork or driving a car between sunset on Friday and sunset on Saturday?

401 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:03:02pm

#284 iceweasel

Other, slightly less racist people are saying that violence is intrinsic to Islam or the Koran; that is, that violence is fundamentally entwined within the teachings of Islam/within the koran.

It goes almost without saying that both groups are wrong. Muslims are not fundamentally violent, and there is nothing intrinsic to or inherent in Islam or the Koran that would make followers violent.

I completely disagree with you. It's neither racist nor bigoted to observe and pass judgment on whether a religion sparks violence. I just Goggled and Yahoo'd time lines of islamic terrorism and it's clear the religion itself fosters this hatred and violence in the more extremist sects of islam. There are three choices with the extremists - convert, submit by paying a tax, or die.

I also am dear friends with several muslims, and two of our family doctors are from Iran. Beautiful, kind, loving people who wouldn't or couldn't entertain a violent thought - but these aren't the muslims I believe most here are talking about. There is a huge faction of islam that has politicized their religion and absolutely do want to islamize the entire world. It's all about power and control.

402 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:03:38pm

Time to wipe the spittle off my chin and go to lunch.

Salaam allekum.

403 Fuad Al'Razi  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:04:31pm

re: #335 austin_blue

Guess what country they're in? Could it be the good ole USA? Could it be that they are in fact apostates? Could it be that they are permitted to sell alcohol to the infidel, but not drink it themselves? Could it be that Pakistan suffers from maximum suckage (I don't think this is a real word)?

404 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:04:34pm

re: #108 Christene

Don't care who said it,..I couldn't agree w/him more!

This coming from someone with an avatar of President Obama as the Joker.

/sod off, Mr./Ms. 26-Posts...

405 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:05:38pm

re: #395 FurryOldGuyJeans

Enjoy your jump in the fascism cesspool then.

And that's all I'm saying on the subject

It's not always a bad thing to read what people like robert or a pat buchanan are saying, but it is important to keep in mind the mindset of the person you're reading. It's the robert spencers of the world pushing this "islam is inherently violent" meme.

406 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:05:53pm

re: #390 Stuart Leviton

The [Hebrew] word for violence is hamas, just like the terrorist organization.

Very interesting, you taught me something.

407 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:07:41pm

re: #400 John Neverbend

That's a novel way to take a stand against Orthodox Judaism. Have you also considered eating pork or driving a car between sunset on Friday and sunset on Saturday?

I turn the lights on and off, too. Like I said, not a way of life I could ever embrace. But I would *never* deny any one else's right to practice it. I feel the same way about other religions.

408 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:07:43pm

re: #246 iceweasel
Your post makes me wonder - and I am only speculating aloud - whether the general culture of middle-eastern thought has been misunderstood in Western eyes. I specifically mean all three great Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The idea you have made me wonder about is the Christian concept of agape (love). I am curious to try to understand how Christians understand that concept, a concept which to me seems to be a legitimate translation of the word love (ohev) in the Hebrew bible. One of the offshoots of the idea you have given me is that I now wonder whether the West understands Islam. Again, this is completely speculative. I expect I'll be 101% wrong.

409 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:07:45pm

BBL--the "Baby" followed me out to pick blueberries and got stung. I am now turning the computer over to him to watch Bear in the Big Blue House as a recompense for receiving such terrible violence.

:(

410 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:08:35pm

re: #396 austin_blue

We are boiling up 50 of the Sea Roaches. Got 'em flown in from Portsmouth, NH. I am one of the two dedicated crackers.

Excellent!

I've never cooked a lobster. We used to call them "Sea Bugs". :)

I think if I ever tried it would be like that scene in Annie Hall where the lobsters somehow escape.

So yummy! I hope you have fun. :)

411 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:11:00pm

re: #397 wrenchwench

Again, the angst doesn't come from the books. I read one of RS's books, thought I learned something, then I found out more about RS, and now I can't trust any info I got from him. Go ahead and read whatever he's written. If you view the word at all the way I do, you will come to feel that you have wasted some time.

Exactly- it was the loss of credibility for me.

412 Catttt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:11:11pm

I think the key is some people use religion as a weapon. Some people don't. Islam in its Wahabbi form lends itself to being a weapon. This does not mean that all Muslims view or use Islam as a weapon.

It is far better, imho, to see Muslims as individuals than to judge them based on how SOME Muslims use their religion in a violent way. It is not only wrong - it is not practical.

I personally think it all started after Mohammed's death, when a bunch of old men decided to interpret and codify the religion and freeze it in one form forever. I'm convinced Mohammed would have evolved and changed - he did it during his life - changed the rules to fit the situation again and again.

Most religions evolve or peter out. If Judaism and Christianity hadn't evolved, gays would still be stoned to death instead of becoming rock stars, mayors, etc. (I thought it was hilarious that a right-wing Christian group of haters was trying to shut down Adam Lambert in Portland, of all places - the mayor of Portland is gay.) They still are put to death in Iran. Only bigots pull out the old Leviticus rules on such subjects in the west, but power classes in Iran still use similar laws from thousands of years ago to put such people to death.

413 Aye Pod  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:11:12pm

As an atheist I have to say that there is no way I will ever apologise for the Quran, - which (among other issues) is unrelentingly absolute in it's condemnation of and promises to hurt (or worse) people like me in this life and beyond. However, as we all know believers of any faith can ignore or rationalise the scriptures they are not comfortable with, no matter how sacrosanct they allegedly are, and a great many muslims clearly do. As many have pointed out, there are shocking passages in the Bible too - without trying to justify or rationalise, for example, the command to kill those who work on a sabbath, one can't fail to observe the fact that this punishment has not been carried out for thousands of years. It is not beyond hope that the last person to be murdered for comitting apostasy from Islam will not be far off.

414 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:11:31pm

re: #403 Fuad Al'Razi

Guess what country they're in? Could it be the good ole USA? Could it be that they are in fact apostates? Could it be that they are permitted to sell alcohol to the infidel, but not drink it themselves? Could it be that Pakistan suffers from maximum suckage (I don't think this is a real word)?

They are practicing Muslims, they have nothing good to say about Islamists, and they love their adopted country.

I am in complete agreement about the suckage in Pakistan, by the way. And it damn well should be word!

415 The Left  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:12:46pm

re: #408 Stuart Leviton

Your post makes me wonder - and I am only speculating aloud - whether the general culture of middle-eastern thought has been misunderstood in Western eyes. I specifically mean all three great Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The idea you have made me wonder about is the Christian concept of agape (love). I am curious to try to understand how Christians understand that concept, a concept which to me seems to be a legitimate translation of the word love (ohev) in the Hebrew bible. One of the offshoots of the idea you have given me is that I now wonder whether the West understands Islam. Again, this is completely speculative. I expect I'll be 101% wrong.

No doubt the western world does misunderstand or not fully understand much of middle eastern thought (and everything outside of the western canon).

As for agape, that has a very specific meaning in western philosophy and in Catholic theology. I do not know how it is understood in Hebrew, but I can talk about the other two.

416 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:14:38pm

Just to note before someone else correctly points out - I know next to nothing about Christianity and even less about Islam. It is not my intent to try claim any understanding. Furthermore, any misunderstanding on my part is due to my ignorance and to that I welcome your teaching so I can overcome my ignorance.

417 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:15:46pm

re: #410 iceweasel

Excellent!

I've never cooked a lobster. We used to call them "Sea Bugs". :)

I think if I ever tried it would be like that scene in Annie Hall where the lobsters somehow escape.

So yummy! I hope you have fun. :)

I hope I don't die of a freakin' heat stroke. Last three days have been 106, 105, and 103. Supposed to hit 103 or so again today. Kinda like living in a convection oven.

418 Honcho  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:15:57pm

I think flooding Saudi. Yemen, Gulf States, and Waziristan with "Flicka" wd do more than umpteen Powerpoint journeys by Cen. Petraeus and Thomas PM Barnett (what's with the poly-initials, is that a message to the PRC?)

419 jaunte  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:19:11pm

re: #417 austin_blue

Try a refreshing neck ice-pack!

420 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:19:46pm

#214 iceweasel

No. No.

This is flawed. This a fundamentally flawed interpretation of Islam.

Let me put it to you this way: Consider the Old Testament. THAT is a bloody, violent, vengeful text-- and it bears almost no relation to Judaism as anyone I know practices Judaism. Even the Torah--maybe especially the Torah!-- is also filled with similar stories.

And anyone who wanted to just point to either text and claim it literally stands for the teaching of Judaism would be flagrantly wrong.
.
Similarly for these claims about the Koran and Islam.

The big difference between the two is we have no ruling law derived from the OT as there is from the koran, which is sharia.

As you stated, the OT bears no resemblance to how Judaism is practiced today. No one in Judaism today is stoning people for adultery, no one is being put to death for not observing the Sabbath. No one is requiring forced observance to anything in the OT.

OTOH, sharia is alive and well. People are being stoned today, limbs are being cut off for minor infractions of sharia, there are lashings given to women who have been raped. There are honor killings on a daily basis, and even in our own country.

There is NO similarity between the koran and the OT aside from the historical account of the OT being rather violent - but that recount of historical violence is not being perpetuated today as it is in islam.

421 Catttt  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:20:28pm

I've been following the fan trends for Adam Lambert world-wide. He has a HUGE following in Indonesia, where American Idol is very popular and where they also have a program called "Indonesian Idol." Many of them are young Muslims. Keep in mind that Mr. Lambert is gay and Jewish. The times, they are a changin', imho. Just a thought.

422 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:21:24pm

re: #398 Lincolntf

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but my posts had zero to do with Charles, "the spat", or anything else related to LGF when I was met with (mild) derision for mentioning that I was gonna read the guy's book.

Note to self: the word "spat" is a flashpoint.

OK, so I went and read your posts on the last thread. You were figuring that RS must be a good guy because CAIR doesn't like him. Other posters tried to bring you up to speed on why that might not be true. It was suggested to you that you read what's been posted on the subject previously at LGF. You said you prefer original sources, and asked for a recommendation of which of RS's books you should read. That's where you got off track, IMHO. You actually said you avoided the subject you are commenting on. You seemed to boast of your ignorance, and then don't like it being pointed at.

423 Aye Pod  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:23:36pm

re: #362 iceweasel

Also-- let's all remember that this rhetoric of a cancer, a disease, an infection-- all these exact same images were used by the Nazis from 29 onwards. Portraying the Jews as an 'infection in the blood' and a 'cancer on the body politic', and ultimately as a virus or parasite that had to be killed before it killed the host--these were all images deliberately and repeatedly invoked by the Nazis and this paved the way not only for genocide but for the specific form of the genocide: cold, mechanised, 'hygenic', sterile. It was portrayed as essential to the health of the German people as a people, and this nationalistic, racist ideal was grounded in very specific bodily imagery about disease and parasites and infections in the blood.

People who advance the idea that Islam is a disease do so in order to prepare the way for the kind of remedy one would apply to a disease - extermination. The rhetoric of those who want to claim that Islam is forever unreformable - eg Robert Spencer - also seem to be trying - in Spencers case slyly - in others more overtly - to promote the idea that the only way to deal with it is via war to rid the world of it - ie it's followers.

424 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:25:24pm

re: #418 Honcho

I think flooding Saudi. Yemen, Gulf States, and Waziristan with "Flicka" wd do more than umpteen Powerpoint journeys by Cen. Petraeus and Thomas PM Barnett (what's with the poly-initials, is that a message to the PRC?)

Yeah, but the book is better. We're gonna have to teach 'em all to read English. :)

425 John Neverbend  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:27:52pm

re: #420 ladycatnip

#214 iceweasel


The big difference between the two is we have no ruling law derived from the OT as there is from the koran, which is sharia.

One of the purposes of the oral law or Talmud is that it makes clearer the meaning and application behind many of the terse or obscure statements in Torah. I don't think there is anything equivalent to the Talmud in Islam, at least not in terms of its breadth and depth of coverage. If there were, and the laws of the Koran had been endlessly discussed and debated in a similarly Talmudic fashion, perhaps things would be different, but then Islam would be a somewhat different religion.

426 jvic  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:28:44pm

No true Scotsman Muslim Christian Jew Marxist rationalist ____ would ever do such terrible things. You misunderstand Christianity Islam Judaism Marxism humanism _____.

They just weren't implemented properly, eh?

I understand a growing threat. I understand that not every growing threat grows to fruition. I understand that some do.

You and yours are/were guilty too.

And your point is...?
**********************
Maybe we're not using the appropriate descriptors and categories.

427 shiek al beif salami  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:30:34pm

#214 iceweasel

No. No.

This is flawed. This a fundamentally flawed interpretation of Islam.

Isn't a bit presumptuous to decide what is and what is not a correct interpretation of a religion?

428 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:30:54pm

re: #415 iceweasel

No doubt the western world does misunderstand or not fully understand much of middle eastern thought (and everything outside of the western canon).

As for agape, that has a very specific meaning in western philosophy and in Catholic theology. I do not know how it is understood in Hebrew, but I can talk about the other two.


The [Hebrew] word for love is ohev. Etymologically the word ohev means "to give". The Jewish concept of love is of giving to the other. That is what I see in my limited understanding of agape. Related Jewish terms are the words for compassion - rehem, which etymologically means "uterus" - for compassion is to be nurturing of the other. Also, the word "shalom" comes from a word meaning "completeness" in the sense that while there may always be war, disease and suffering, if one feels complete within oneself, then one is at peace. That is how the word shalom means peace.

The stories in the Hebrew bible demonstrate themes. A quick example, in Numbers, there is a story about Moses sending spies into Israel. A key word in that story is the word alliyah, to raise oneself up to a higher spiritual level. Jews will recognize this word as the word for going up to read the Torah or also the same word for immigration to Israel. One point of the story of the spies is that when the Jewish spies attempt to visit Hebron, the highest point in Israel (?) and the burial site of Abraham and Sarah, that the spies are too afraid to climb higher. God implores that the spies make alliyah, raise themselves higher but they can not. The story is to be taken literally as a story of failure to visit the land, but also on a higher level, the story is to be taken spiritually as it is about a person raising himself to a higher level. Furthermore, the ten commandments are also about spiritual matters as much as material matters. The prohibition "Thou shalt not kill" (murder is the better term) also means that one should not kill the soul of another by embarrassing them, demeaning them and so forth. Love to all - Stu

429 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:38:32pm

re: #315 Mithrax

Because it seems that everyone else is being pedantic in this thread :P, the proper term used in scriptural scholarship circiles is "prooftexting".


Way cool. I too am learning so much from everyone. Thanks y'all!

430 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:42:33pm

re: #151 astronmr20

The Koran is quite clear on what should be done with ANYONE leaving Islam. Not just in one instance, or in one region or tribe. It's an eternal decree that apostasy mean instant death.

Actually. the Qu'ran is not "quite clear" about this at all, although an interpretation of 2:217 is sometimes used. The justifications used for punishing apostasy by death and otherwise are found in other Islamic sources. At least, get the facts right.

431 swamprat  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:44:20pm

re: #426 jvic

Aye, there's the rub!

432 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 1:49:54pm

re: #420 ladycatnip

#214 iceweasel

The big difference between the two is we have no ruling law derived from the OT as there is from the koran, which is sharia.

As you stated, the OT bears no resemblance to how Judaism is practiced today. No one in Judaism today is stoning people for adultery, no one is being put to death for not observing the Sabbath. No one is requiring forced observance to anything in the OT.

OTOH, sharia is alive and well. People are being stoned today, limbs are being cut off for minor infractions of sharia, there are lashings given to women who have been raped. There are honor killings on a daily basis, and even in our own country.

There is NO similarity between the koran and the OT aside from the historical account of the OT being rather violent - but that recount of historical violence is not being perpetuated today as it is in islam.


I would like to respectfully question your statement. I thought halachah in Judaism would be comparable with shariah as a legal code. Also, I thought that the Mohamad had been adopted by members of the Jewish community, and that they taught him the Torah, the Jewish bible. The Koran thus has origins in the Jewish bible.

With those statements made, I also wish to challenge myself for I know neither about halacha, nor about the origins of Islaam to pretend that I am making statements of fact, i.e., I am probably wrong.

433 NY Nana  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:12:21pm

re: #432 Stuart Leviton

I will save you the trouble of Googling 'Halacha'...here it is.

/You seem to be a bit confused.

434 AmericanParty  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:16:22pm

Chemotherapy is always harsh on the host. I think the BNP should try anti-oxidants and exercise if they want to get rid of cancer.

435 shortshrift  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:18:19pm

The cancer/disease metaphor is one of the cliches most easily at hand for politicians. Sontag bored on about it. What precisely will be the "chemotherapy" policies that can kill off Islam? I have not read that Griffin or any elected Western fascist is propounding mass murder of Muslims (unlike certain elected Muslims of infidels). So how does one set about stopping Islam politically? Banning the practice of Islam, banning the Koran ( Wilders), banning the symbols of Islam (France) ? Preposterous, futile, self-defeating.
Actually, Griffin uses the word "Islam" in place of "Paki". The British working class contempt for Pakistani immigrants - darkies - has been sent to school to talk proper. What he wants is to stop immigration and, no doubt, to start repatriation.
There are no political solutions to bad ideas.
The very difficult political debate in the West is about how far Western jurisdictions will permit Muslims to follow Sharia, or the cultural practices of their ancestral countries, where they are incompatible with Western law. Do the children of Muslims belong to their parents or to the state? Do we want "reservations" of alien laws and practices?
Not helpful to the debate are certain phrases and statements:
"Islam itself" - no such animal. There are several different traditional schools and the gates of ijtihad may be open again (if they were ever closed). And this Islam is only relevant to the literate (in Arabic, preferably) and religiously educated. Most are not, and simply shuffle along as local tradition requires. Some local traditions are syncretic. Religious dogma in any case is incoherent, and there is no point in exculpating it from its own excesses, contradictions, and what modern Americans would see as politically incorrect no-nos.
"Moderate Muslims." This concept usually occurs as part of a disclaimer (e.g. "the vast majority of Muslims are moderate" ), usually uttered to ward of accusations of bigotry. A Muslim is one who says (and believes?) "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." He should pray, give alms, fast and, if he can, make the pilgrimage Meccah, but in most Islamic countries and in the West, these are not enforced (except by community pressure.) What a Muslim does politically may or may not be moderate in Western terms. Observe the American Muslims who are jumping on the civil rights movement and using the language of victimhood ("Islamophobia") to carve out special treatment. These are mostly well-educated, professionals, who vote Democrat and believe the Koran is pro-female, an ur-text for scientific discovery, and the first draft of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

436 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:22:28pm

re: #326 hazzyday

To be considered Holy in the Old testament you had to sacrifice animals. Dip your fingers in blood, wash entrails, dispose of fat. And it seemed to occupy a lot of time and money. The death of Christ is said to have removed the need for these types of sacrifices. But in some form today we still see religious people thinking killing someone else is a act of divinity instead of an act of depravity. Poor listeners.


I agree with your conclusion but not with your assertion if one performs a blood ritual (sacrifices animals) then one is holy". I think your statement may be correct from a Christian viewpoint - especially that the death of Jesus removed the need for sacrifice. But from a Jewish viewpoint, my understanding is that prayer has replaced animal sacrifice although were the Temple rebuilt, then animal sacrifice would recommence. Is this misunderstanding between the two religions connected to the "blood libel" against the Jews, something which we still see in 2009? You raise an important question (for me) on what does the word 'holiness' (kodesh) really mean. I had always thought the understanding of the word kodesh had been lost in history - somewhat like the word 'firmament' (rakeach). You've gotten me curious. Thanks.

437 lostlakehiker  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:24:16pm

re: #268 Charles

Not to be pedantic, but in the interest of precision -- there's something that always bothers me when people say "Islam is fundamentally violent," or "the Koran is fundamentally violent."

The point is this: Islam is a religion. The Koran is a book. Last time I checked, neither religions nor books were capable of actually committing physical violence. Religions are collections of spiritual ideas. Books are inanimate objects. They can't reach out and club you with a monkey wrench.

When you say "Islam is fundamentally violent," aren't you really saying "Muslims are fundamentally violent?" Because Muslims -- people -- are the actual agents of violence, not their religion and not their book.

People can be inspired by books and religions to commit violence, and Islam has no monopoly on this sad phenomenon. But people can also follow religions -- and most religions have violent histories -- and choose not to be inspired to commit violence.

To be very precise, the fundamental texts of Islam call explicitly for violence. First the unbeliever must be invited to Islam, or, if he is of the people of the book, to incorporation into Islamic society in a subordinate role, as dhimmi. If he submits, fine. If not, there is a second constraint upon violence: ...there has to be some sort of prospect for victory.

If violence is both necessary, because the unbeliever will not voluntarily submit, and possible, these texts instruct the reader to prepare the means of war and then attack.

No one is saying that Muslims are to humanity at large what pit bulls are to caninity at large. There is nothing racial to this. In fact, the level of in-group violence in Islamic societies runs in a middling range. There are American cities with higher murder rates than recorded in, say, Istanbul.

No one is saying that the texts themselves reach out from the page and slit throats. Only human hands can do that. But what the texts do is to reach out from the page into the mind of some readers. Those who fully accept the text, and do not interpose their own decent consciences between those words and their hands, ---the only remaining constraint upon them is whether they like their chances.

Fascism is inherently violent. Communism is inherently violent. These political doctrines are inherently violent in the sense that their founding doctrines, their exemplars, and their texts, all call for the violent destruction of enemies, foreign and domestic, and for world conquest. They paint whole classes and races of people as enemy, and outside the protection of law or human decency, regardless of personal and individual responsibility for actual wrongs.

Now, by that logic, what conclusions follow about Islam?

438 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:29:30pm

#432 Stuart Leviton

I would like to respectfully question your statement. I thought halachah in Judaism would be comparable with shariah as a legal code. Also, I thought that the Mohamad had been adopted by members of the Jewish community, and that they taught him the Torah, the Jewish bible. The Koran thus has origins in the Jewish bible.

With those statements made, I also wish to challenge myself for I know neither about halacha, nor about the origins of Islaam to pretend that I am making statements of fact, i.e., I am probably wrong.

I should have been more precise about the distinction between sharia and Jewish law. The Torah clearly is followed by orthodox, conservative and reformed Jews to varying degrees. However, there are no countries in the world that are under Jewish law (or halakhah) the way in which sharia is practiced. In most (not all) muslim countries it is imposed regardless if you are muslim or not. If you are a Gentile or Hindu or Buddhist traveling in a sharia-run country such as Saudi Arabia and if you run afoul of sharia, there is a strong possibility you may be punished according to sharia. Jewish laws or rabbinic laws are followed voluntarily, if I understand correctly.

This is one of my favorite Jewish sites in understanding the Torah and Jewish law - since I am not Jewish.

439 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:36:31pm

re: #423 Jimmah

People who advance the idea that Islam is a disease do so in order to prepare the way for the kind of remedy one would apply to a disease - extermination. The rhetoric of those who want to claim that Islam is forever unreformable - eg Robert Spencer - also seem to be trying - in Spencers case slyly - in others more overtly - to promote the idea that the only way to deal with it is via war to rid the world of it - ie it's followers.


Beautiful!

This raises the question of Obama and the unclenched fist for me. I still seek a sophisticated critique enunciating a Western value of love for the other and love for ourselves - so as to wisely protect ourself rather than (foolishly) turn our swords into plowshares overnight. My understanding (of Judaism) is that we are to extend our hand in peace; we are to wish the best for our enemies rather than to wish death and misery. We are to pray for the people whom we consider our enemies so that we can celebrate life together as brothers - I am my brothers keeper (shomer [Hebrew]).

440 Lynn B.  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:36:51pm

From a recent article called Tehran's Genocidal Incitement against Israel in the Middle East Quarterly.

Rhetoric matters and words kill. The U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide and Incitement to Genocide specifies that incitement to genocide is a crime against humanity.[12] Since the Holocaust, genocide scholars have identified hate language and incitement—notably the use of dehumanizing medical metaphors—as predictors, promoters, and catalysts of genocidal agendas in Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Rwanda, and the Sudan.[13]

[ ... ]

While [Juan] Cole and the National Iranian American Council—the Islamic Republic's de facto lobby in Washington—play down Iranian rhetoric and deny any incitement to genocide, a number of scholars, most prominently Tel Aviv University scholar Joshua Teitelbaum, editor-designate of the Middle East Quarterly Denis MacEoin, and German political scientist Matthias Küntzel, have chronicled Iranian rhetoric, including its dehumanizing medical metaphors recalling those used by Nazi propagandists since Adolf Hitler wrote Mein Kampf.

441 Aye Pod  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:38:40pm

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

Got to give him credit for the his honesty. I don't agree one percent with him, but he's more honest than some of our own politicians.

You obviously haven't seen, or have forgotten, the video of Griffin making his "let's trick them by pretending it isn't about racism...heh heh!" speech in front of the KKK.

442 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:41:04pm

re: #425 John Neverbend
Thank you for your teaching. I would like to understand Talmud.

443 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:42:43pm

re: #433 NY Nana

I will save you the trouble of Googling 'Halacha'...here it is.

/You seem to be a bit confused.

Thank you. I am alot 'confused' - actually ignorant - on this.

444 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:44:48pm

The way I like to put it is that Islam as a religion is fundamentally flawed by stasis. It has never resolved basic conflicts between free will and Allah's will in the modern world and thus human rights are backwards in Islamic nations. There are also the problems inherent in democratic societies which diametrically oppose the concept of Kalipha and Emir, etc. Until the scholastic councils are once again united (forget the term for this grand confab that hasn't happened in centuries, someone remind me?) Islam will not progress because it carries the seeds of its own destruction with those flaws. It is the current emirs, sultans, and kings who are at fault, it's their fear which keeps a lid on Islamic reformation. It's the only religion in the world that I can think of that still supports a flavor of the divine right of kings (Islamic version is Kalipha, Emir)

While everyone except the terrorists and fundamentalists decries the calls to violence in the Koran, few note that the majority of terror victims are other muslims. That counts all terror events worldwide, 9/11 included. (Look at just the muslim deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, you don't even need to include the long war which also used terror squads on both sides between Iran and Iraq or the thousands killed in Pakistan the past few years.) This is why I've always thought of the conflicts we see today as fallout for temporal power within, not without the Islamic world.

445 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:47:39pm

re: #438 ladycatnip

Thank you ladycatnip. I have much to learn both in the scholarly sense and in the real sense of loving kindness to others.

446 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 2:58:15pm

#439 Stuart Leviton

This raises the question of Obama and the unclenched fist for me. I still seek a sophisticated critique enunciating a Western value of love for the other and love for ourselves - so as to wisely protect ourself rather than (foolishly) turn our swords into plowshares overnight. My understanding (of Judaism) is that we are to extend our hand in peace; we are to wish the best for our enemies rather than to wish death and misery. We are to pray for the people whom we consider our enemies so that we can celebrate life together as brothers - I am my brothers keeper (shomer [Hebrew]).

The collective fist of the islamic world has been clenched for millenia, and it's going to take more than a few physical therapy sessions to open it up.

I do believe in extending one hand sincerely in peace and diplomacy first, but with a stick in the other hand if needed.

447 Aye Pod  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 3:02:36pm

re: #439 Stuart Leviton

That is a very nice sentiment. It's definitely possible to be hopeful and do what we can to encourage understanding, establishing common ground etc, while remembering how to use a clenched fist when it's needed. I think the zealots at some level know the tide is against them and has been for a long time. Their bullshit will die a natural death, we just have to avoid disaster in the meantime.

448 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 3:52:36pm

re: #446 ladycatnip

#439 Stuart Leviton

The collective fist of the islamic world has been clenched for millenia, and it's going to take more than a few physical therapy sessions to open it up.

I do believe in extending one hand sincerely in peace and diplomacy first, but with a stick in the other hand if needed.


re: #447 Jimmah

That is a very nice sentiment. It's definitely possible to be hopeful and do what we can to encourage understanding, establishing common ground etc, while remembering how to use a clenched fist when it's needed. I think the zealots at some level know the tide is against them and has been for a long time. Their bullshit will die a natural death, we just have to avoid disaster in the meantime.


If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
If I am for myself alone, then what (sort of person) am I?
If not now, when?
- Rabbi Hillel, Pirkei Avot 1:14 (The Babylonian Talmud)
Yes, the point is to choose life and the good and reject death and evil. Bless you both.

449 ~Fianna  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 4:02:04pm

re: #255 Dr. Shalit

Fianna -

Where the "moderates" fall down is in their moderation. An Islamic Reformation will require reformers willing to use equal if not GREATER TERROR than the Islamists. The "Protestant" powers of Europe were willing to go to war with the "Catholic" powers, and did. This maintained the Reformation. Without that willingness, Islamic Reformation is bound to fail.
My two cents as to what is happening - for what it is worth.

-S-

I'm hoping that we can see a Reformation more in the spirit of Ghandi, MLK, the Orange Revolution and how they've started in Iran than something that is reminiscent of England immediately after Henry VIII.

That's probably very idealistic of me... but I certainly can hope.

450 ~Fianna  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 4:18:30pm

re: #331 Occasional Reader

From Reuters, October 16, 2006:

Curious how the numbers would stack up if you polled American Christians about the Tiller shooting. I've got a feeling that there are sects where the support numbers would be higher than 1 in 10.

Indonesia also has a pretty massive population.

451 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 5:34:14pm

re: #328 jvic

Dear jvic,

You stated that Judaism renounced the viciousness of the Jewish Bible and became a progressive religion and that the Roman's were the main catalyst in this transformation. I am curious to know how you come to that conclusion. What books would you recommend so I can understand your claim.

452 EaterOfFood  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 6:15:52pm

Radical Islam and the BNP need to be condemned and opposed. For the exact same reasons.

453 Render  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 6:27:59pm

To put all in another light...

For better or worse, there are well over a million Muslim soldiers fighting on our side in this war.

There are (or were) but a couple of handfuls of converted Judeo-Christians in combat on the enemies side.

===

Morale Check:

When your lifespan can be measured by the flight time of an aptly named Hellfire missile launched from an almost angelic appearing (when they can be seen) Predator or Reaper, like a bolt of lightning from a clear sky, it's got to be damnably difficult to keep the faith that it was your God that ordered or approved of your mission.

When the USMC and Royal Marine Commandos drop a 400 plus acre firebase (Camp Leatherneck/Camp Bastion) and several dozen combat posts squarely in the middle of your only remaining breadbasket, which is also the birthplace of your movement, almost overnight, it'll change your strategy, whatever it was, in a drastic fashion. What was that about who's will again?

Those Leopard 2A6's are not the T-72's and T-55's that your grand pappy, (such are the normal lifespans of the region), knew about back in the day. Back then, he could count on his RPG-7 knocking out a Soviet BTR-60 eight wheeled APC, every single time it hit. The Polish Rosomak eight wheeled APC's are absorbing multiple RPG hits and driving on, still fighting. Are you sure that this is what Allah had in mind?

===

That is the only Counter-Jihad that matters in this war.

The only way the BNP, VB, or any other of their ilk could help the real Counter-Jihad is if they were to return to the enemies side that they only recently left.

TIP OF
THE SPEAR,
R

454 scullymj  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 6:47:04pm

Islam is not a cancer but a mental illness. It is quite simply a 1400 year old lie perpetrated by the Jim Jones or David Koresh of his day. Yes, I'm talking about old Mo, that lying, thieving, murdering brigand from down around Mecca way. Anyone with an once of common sense who can read will readily come to the conclusion that the koran, when put in it's historical context, is nothing but a situational work of fiction that Mo dreamed up as circumstances required. The koran, islam and allah were simply an maniacal illiterates attempt at plagiarism. Practiced as intended by it inventor, it is wholly incompatible with Western world and therefore must be contained to that great sandbox of goat fornicators. If I hurt anybody's sensibilities, I frankly don't care.

455 EE  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 7:36:27pm

Ethnic cleansing goals that are dressed up in garments are still ethnic cleansing goals.
This raging about "Islam" (he's not talking about radical Islam) is another way of saying "Let's get rid of the Muslims". And that means by, say, killing them, terrorizing them so they will go away, or expelling them, or finding some other means of ethnic cleansing.

456 jvic  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 8:17:16pm

re: #451 Stuart Leviton

Dear jvic,

You stated that Judaism renounced the viciousness of the Jewish Bible and became a progressive religion and that the Roman's were the main catalyst in this transformation. I am curious to know how you come to that conclusion. What books would you recommend so I can understand your claim.

Jewish history is one of many things I'd pursue an interest in, given unlimited lifespan and leisure time. Also, I would examine it if adopting an organized religion were high among my priorities; currently, it is not.

Searching the Amazon book section for "History of the Jews" yields a number of books that seem seriously written, accessible to the general reader, and well regarded by Amazon raters.

I wouldn't say that Judaism renounced the viciousness of in the Jewish Bible: offhand, "renounced" strikes me as a unacceptably inaccurate term. Btw, I suspect that the bloody violent vengeful elements in the Old Testament are typical for the era.

457 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 8:42:28pm

re: #72 itellu3times

Islam is peaceful only to adherents.
.

Unless the adherent is a woman, gay, coverts to another religion or somehow displeases a mullah/cleric and just happens to live in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

458 Flavia  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 9:06:06pm

Someone ought to make these racist bigots watch these videos:

[Link: www.noterror.info...]

459 el polacko  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 10:35:17pm

i would say that ALL religion is a cancer... but the europeans are experiencing having their very cultures over-ridden by muslim immigrants who have no interest in integrating into their new surroundings but rather hope to subvert them into regressing into some sixth century caliphate. i don't think that it's 'bigoted' to want to defend your homeland from being stolen by religious zealots who are opposed to western values.

460 mikevp  Sat, Jul 11, 2009 11:17:26pm

I'm not defending those Nazi sleezebags, but perhaps they're echoing that comment by Iranian nutburger Eichmanndinijihad about the Jews being a cancer requiring radiation treatment.

(Gee, and the preemptive surrender folks wonder why sane and decent people have problems with Iran's nuclear program?)

461 Flavia  Sun, Jul 12, 2009 1:57:05am

re: #65 pingjockey

New Testament is peaceful, for the most part. The Old Testament doesn't have a whole lot of turn the other cheek.

Not only does the Xian Bible have eternal hell - not very peaceful, AFAICS - which Torah does not, but suicide is a sin in Judaism, except under specific conditions.

462 [deleted]  Sun, Jul 12, 2009 12:15:58pm
463 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 12, 2009 1:23:28pm

re: #462 Mad Mullah

If you want to echo the words of Nick Griffin, find another blog to do it at. As several people have pointed out, these are the kinds of words Nazis use. If that's how you want to play, you're at the wrong blog. Do it again and I'll block your account.


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 Frank says:

Never stop and keep going -- Giving advice to young musicians. early 80's interview with pennsylvania state police officer whom is also a zappa fan. originally to be shown to local high school students of the area but frank ended up on the subject of politics and you can just imagine why the kids never seen this video.