Minnesota Somali-Americans Joining the Jihad

US News • Views: 2,868

Andrea Elliott of the New York Times has a good in-depth report on the disturbing number of Somali Muslim refugees living in Minnesota who have returned to Somalia to join the jihad: A Call to Jihad, Answered in America.

In November, Mr. Hassan and two other students dropped out of college and left for Somalia, the homeland they barely knew. Word soon spread that they had joined the Shabaab, a militant Islamist group aligned with Al Qaeda that is fighting to overthrow the fragile Somali government.

The students are among more than 20 young Americans who are the focus of what may be the most significant domestic terrorism investigation since Sept. 11. One of the men, Shirwa Ahmed, blew himself up in Somalia in October, becoming the first known American suicide bomber. The director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert M. Mueller, has said Mr. Ahmed was “radicalized in his hometown in Minnesota.”

An examination by The New York Times, based on interviews with close friends and relatives of the men, law enforcement officials and lawyers, as well as access to live phone calls and Facebook messages between the men and their friends in the United States, reveals how a far-flung jihadist movement found a foothold in America’s heartland.

The men appear to have been motivated by a complex mix of politics and faith, and their communications show how some are trying to recruit other young Americans to their cause.

The case represents the largest group of American citizens suspected of joining an extremist movement affiliated with Al Qaeda. Although friends say the men have never thought of carrying out attacks in the United States, F.B.I. officials worry that with their training, ideology and American passports, there is a real danger that they could.

“This case is unlike anything we have encountered,” said Ralph S. Boelter, the special agent in charge of the F.B.I.’s Minneapolis office, which is leading the investigation.

Read the whole thing…

UPDATE at 7/13/09 12:22:10 pm:

Here’s a report on the mosque some say played a part in radicalizing these young men: Sudden notoriety: Mosque in Minneapolis draws scrutiny from U.S. Senate, FBI and international media. (Hat tip: Soccer Dad.)

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314 comments
1 debutaunt  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:51:03am

These huddled masses aren't melting.

2 Buck  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:51:47am

Their families and neighbors report that they are good boys, who would never harm anyone...

"They are going to CAMP... Didn't you ever go to Camp?"

3 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:51:48am

re: #1 debutaunt

Or unclenching...

4 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:52:24am

Looks like Dearborn,Mich missed a...FIRST!!!

5 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:53:51am

re: #2 Buck

Their families and neighbors report that they are good boys, who would never harm anyone...

Isn't that what the friends and neighbors of the serial killer d'jour say to the media when the police find a bunch of dead bodies in his freezer?

6 redstateredneck  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:55:13am

re: #5 Fenway_Nation

Isn't that what the friends and neighbors of the serial killer d'jour say to the media when the police find a bunch of dead bodies in his freezer?


They seemed so nice...

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:55:42am

That loud buzzing sound you hear? That is a wake-up call.

8 Wendya  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:55:59am

Quelle surprise.

9 poteen  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:56:36am

re: #4 reloadingisnotahobby

Looks like Dearborn,Mich missed a...FIRST!!!

Wonder what ol' Orville Hubbard would say nowadays?

10 J.D.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:56:48am
If failure had shadowed this first group of men, the young Minnesotans who followed them to Somalia were succeeding in America. Mr. Hassan, the engineering student, was a rising star in his college community. Another of the men was a pre-med student who had once set his sights on an internship at the Mayo Clinic. They did not leave the United States for a lack of opportunity, their friends said; if anything, they seemed driven by unfulfilled ambition.

“Now they feel important,” said one friend, who remains in contact with the men and, like others, would only speak anonymously because of the investigation.

The case has forced federal agents and terrorism analysts to rethink some of their most basic assumptions about the vulnerability of Muslim immigrants in the United States to the lure of militant Islam. For years, it seemed that “homegrown” terrorism was largely a problem in European countries like Britain and France, where Muslim immigrants had failed to prosper economically or integrate culturally. By contrast, experts believed that the successful assimilation of foreign-born Muslims in the United States had largely immunized them from the appeal of radical ideologies.


Very strange.

11 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:56:56am

re: #2 Buck

Their families and neighbors report that they are good boys, who would never harm anyone...

Yes, and we shot worn-out bows and arrows and made crafts our mother would discreetly throw away when we weren't looking. (She had seven kids; she had to be picky about what she kept.)

12 Idle Drifter  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:57:01am

So what are the chances the survivors of this call to Jihad won't come back to the US to practice what they learned?

13 VioletTiger  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:57:17am

What are they putting in the water up there in Minnesota?

14 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:57:38am

Now these are people I consider to be traitors.

15 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:58:13am

re: #13 VioletTiger


Don't worry lizards- Al Franken is on the case!

/Damn...I just peed myself a little.

16 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:58:19am

Look, sister dear, I went to camp and made this lovely belt for you to wear. Why don't you go to the mall for a bit. I'll be right behind you.

17 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:58:49am

I hope the authorities in Shelbyville, TN, are paying attention.

18 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:58:49am

re: #13 VioletTiger

What are they putting in the water up there in Minnesota?

Undiluted pockets of Somali Islamist culture, protected and nurtured by the ridiculous current American "ideal" of multi-culti neutrality.

19 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:59:05am

Plenty of Somali youth from Canada have been going to Somalia to join the Holy War too.

20 poteen  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:59:05am

Seriously, Facebook jihadis. The world is akilter.

22 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:59:51am

They are just misguided youts! They were led astray by bad acquantices! No radical imam had anything to do with them going a jihading!

23 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:00:10pm
The group has gained mounting interest among extremists who incite youths,
including al- Qaeda's second-in-command, Ayman Al- Zawahiri.
Aside from getting fighters from abroad, the Islamists were also receiving
guns, according to a UN monitoring group that reported last year that the
Islamic Courts was being armed, trained and funded by seven states, including
Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya and Eritrea.
"Mo" Abdullahi Mohamed, a Somali-Canadian who now serves as personal
secretary to Deputy Prime Minister Aideed, said a Toronto mosque had been
recruiting youths to join the Islamic Courts. The mosque is affiliated with Al
Itti had Al Islami, an al-Qaeda linked Somali terrorist group headed by Sheik
Hassan Aweys, leader of the Islamic Courts shura council, he said.
24 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:00:27pm

American or Canadian Passport + Fully trained terrorist = (Nothing, nothing at all. You can't really think these nice young men would do anything violent, would you? Are you a racist or something?)

25 VioletTiger  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:00:30pm

re: #15 Fenway_Nation

Don't worry lizards- Al Franken is on the case!

/Damn...I just peed myself a little.

AHHH! That's what I was afraid of!

26 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:00:33pm
27 Ay, Caramba  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:01:02pm

Kids, whatta ya gonna do.

28 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:01:02pm
"There are a lot of Somali Westerners, from Canada, the U.S., a lot of young
Canadians are here that are being brainwashed to fight. Mostly they are in the shabab, the young Canadians."
Two Somalis were among 18 men arrested in Toronto last June for allegedly
belonging to a "homegrown" terrorist group plotting attacks in Canada, but they are not suspected of having trained in Somalia.
29 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:01:39pm

With apologies to South Park:

We drink and we pillage and we do what we please
We get all that we want for free
We’ll kick your ass
And rape your lass
Somalian pirates jihadis we

So with a yo ho ho
And with a yee hee hee
We take to the African sea
We’ll brave the squalls
And bust your balls
Somalian pirates jihadis we

30 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:02:02pm

re: #26 buzzsawmonkey

Didn't everyone grow up playing jihad and go seek?

We suburban goyim played "genocidal imperialist lackeys and oppressed Native American indigenous peoples."

/

31 Racer X  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:02:04pm
Andrea Elliott of the New York Times has a good in-depth report on the disturbing number of Somali Muslim refugees living in Minnesota who have left the US to become jihadis in Somalia

Good.

GTFO!

And don't ever come back.

Enjoy your lizard stew.

32 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:02:44pm

Eh... 20 people?

Call me a head in the sand, but somehow I think we have much more extreme issues with Neo-Nazis, Ecoterrorists, and Survivalists than we will with these clowns. Just keep an eye on them. I don't think we're going to have to declare a state of emergency over this.

Remember, bad laws are created when people get emotional and over react (cref: 9/11 and the PATRIOT Act as one example).

33 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:02:47pm

Shirwa Ahmed, blew himself up in Somalia in October, becoming the first known American suicide bomber

Just before the BOOM. I wonder what was clenched, his fist or his ass???

34 Racer X  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:02:54pm

re: #27 Ay, Caramba

Kids, whatta ya gonna do.

Blow them the fuck up with a J-DAM.

35 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:03:15pm

re: #30 OldLineTexan

We suburban goyim played "genocidal imperialist lackeys and oppressed Native American indigenous peoples."

/

Yes, I well remember playing that game. LOL.

36 Ay, Caramba  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:03:15pm

Who's going to drive all the taxi cabs?
/

37 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:03:29pm

re: #32 bloodstar

Eh... 20 people?

Call me a head in the sand, but somehow I think we have much more extreme issues with Neo-Nazis, Ecoterrorists, and Survivalists than we will with these clowns. Just keep an eye on them. I don't think we're going to have to declare a state of emergency over this.

Remember, bad laws are created when people get emotional and over react (cref: 9/11 and the PATRIOT Act as one example).


I recall 9/11 being carried out by LESS than that number!!

Just sayin!

38 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:03:55pm

re: #9 poteen
He was a Little radical...But the pendulum swings...

39 Racer X  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:04:15pm

re: #36 Ay, Caramba

Who's going to drive all the taxi cabs?
/

Wait, are these the jobs Zero promised to create?

40 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:04:28pm

This case is unlike anything we have encountered,” said Ralph S. Boelter, the special agent in charge of the F.B.I.’s Minneapolis office, which is leading the investigation.

Not really; America has been encountering this since, oh, 1801 or so.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

We just don't get it, as a nation, yet.

41 LGoPs  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:04:46pm

Not surprising for a state that could contrive to elect Al Franken for the Senate.
/

42 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:04:56pm

re: #32 bloodstar

Eh... 20 people?

Call me a head in the sand, but somehow I think we have much more extreme issues with Neo-Nazis, Ecoterrorists, and Survivalists than we will with these clowns.

To be honest, the sand wasn't the first place I figured you had your head firmly planted...

43 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:05:36pm

re: #42 Fenway_Nation

To be honest, the sand wasn't the first place I figured you had your head firmly planted...

Someone UPDING this for me. I can only give it ONE

44 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:05:46pm

re: #10 J.D.

No, that one suicide bomber feels nothing. They're dead. And their intent was to murder many others.

There are no words that can truly convey what I feel about such people.

Oh, and this particular bunch of Somalis aren't just some huddled masses. They were middle class and given every opportunity this nation had to offer, and they decided that jihad was the life for them. They chose to act because Ethiopia had enough of the jihadis pushing violence and lawlessness into Ethiopia. So, instead of doing something about the lawlessness, they went to Somalia to pursue jihad, though their supporters will call it something quite different.

They sought out jihad; they sought out war on the side of our enemies. They deserve what's coming to them.

45 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:05:47pm

re: #37 sattv4u2

I recall 9/11 being carried out by LESS than that number!!

Just sayin!

I do too.
And there are at least some who would dispute the assertion there that the Patriot Act was "bad law".

46 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:06:49pm

re: #32 bloodstar
Hmmm, don't recall neonazis flying planes into buildings, ecoterrorists blowing up the Pentagon, or survivalists planning on taking out the WH.
Granted all 3 of the above have done OK City, burned down condos, attacked and destroyed research labs, but not a terror attack on the scale of 9/11.

47 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:06:54pm

Paul Krugman, the doyen of the economic Left, as having been completely backward on the most material economic event in our generation: the housing bubble.

Krugman advocated lower interest rates to maintain the housing boom which built the bubble which eventually burst and lead to the economic catastrophe we face today. Can we ask that his Noble Prize be returned now?

48 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:07:14pm

re: #4 reloadingisnotahobby

Looks like Dearborn,Mich missed a...FIRST!!!

Up-ding...that. was. funny.

49 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:07:34pm

re: #10 J.D.

Very strange.

The case has forced federal agents and terrorism analysts to rethink some of their most basic assumptions about the vulnerability of Muslim immigrants in the United States to the lure of militant Islam. For years, it seemed that “homegrown” terrorism was largely a problem in European countries like Britain and France, where Muslim immigrants had failed to prosper economically or integrate culturally. By contrast, experts believed that the successful assimilation of foreign-born Muslims in the United States had largely immunized them from the appeal of radical ideologies.

Stunning case of myopia, hubris, and willful ignorance! They're just coming to this dawning of realization NOW?

50 dhg4  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:07:39pm

I was curious to see what role, if any, Keith Ellison was playing and found this background. Ellison feels that the mosque has been unfairly targeted. On the other hand it seems possible that the radicalization did take place in the streets.

One other thing I find interesting in the NYT story. The reporter noted that the Somalis didn't fit in with their African American classmates. If the classmates had been white, the Times would have used a different word to describe the tension.

51 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:07:42pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

I do too.
And there are at least some who would dispute the assertion there that the Patriot Act was "bad law".

I never thought it was. Badly applied at times, yes, but for what it's intent is, nope

52 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:08:30pm

re: #32 bloodstar

Remember, bad laws are created when people get emotional and over react (cref: 9/11 and the PATRIOT Act as one example).

They've kept your ass safe.

53 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:08:32pm

re: #32 bloodstar

Funny, but no one in the Obama Administration is rushing to overturn the Patriot Act, most of which was overwrought hysterics about several provisions that do nothing to infringe on the rights of US citizens. They sure seem in a hurry to close Gitmo and change a whole host of policies, but the Patriot Act remains? Funny how that works.

It does quite a bit to stop foreign terrorists from acting though, and apparently more than a few on the left seem to conflate the two - on purpose no less.

The Obama Administration isn't going to give up those tools and they know that they work.

54 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:08:40pm

re: #32 bloodstar

Eh... 20 people?

Call me a head in the sand, but somehow I think we have much more extreme issues with Neo-Nazis, Ecoterrorists, and Survivalists than we will with these clowns. Just keep an eye on them. I don't think we're going to have to declare a state of emergency over this.

Remember, bad laws are created when people get emotional and over react (cref: 9/11 and the PATRIOT Act as one example).

Oh, for pity's sake. Wash the Cheeto dust off your keyboard before it starts stinking up your mom's basement again.

55 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:08:42pm

re: #43 sattv4u2

Someone UPDING this for me. I can only give it ONE

I got your back, satt.

56 J.D.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:08:43pm

re: #49 Russkilitlover

Stunning case of myopia, hubris, and willful ignorance! They're just coming to this dawning of realization NOW?

That seems to be the case, unfortunately.

57 Dianna  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:09:08pm

re: #30 OldLineTexan

We suburban goyim played "genocidal imperialist lackeys and oppressed Native American indigenous peoples."

/

We played cops and robbers, generally.

The girls played the robbers, because we wanted to be chased. It was unusual for a boy to sign up for the robbers' side.

58 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:09:22pm

re: #32 bloodstar

Somali youth in Toronto were also joining the jihad in Somalia. Also, two of the Toronto 18 gang arrested for a terrorist conspiracy were Somalis.

So yes, we do have something to worry about with these people.

59 J.D.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:09:28pm

bbl

60 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:09:43pm

re: #47 Kenneth

Paul Krugman, the doyen of the economic Left, as having been completely backward on the most material economic event in our generation: the housing bubble.

Krugman advocated lower interest rates to maintain the housing boom which built the bubble which eventually burst and lead to the economic catastrophe we face today. Can we ask that his Noble Prize be returned now?

You mean the Nobel Prize for Politically Correct Economics?

/Krugman's actual economic analysis is crap.

61 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:10:10pm

re: #55 NelsFree

I got your back, satt.

Thanks ,, and many others. It's up to 10 now!!

62 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:10:13pm

re: #50 dhg4

Excellent research. Update worthy, Charles!

63 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:10:26pm
If failure had shadowed this first group of men, the young Minnesotans who followed them to Somalia were succeeding in America. Mr. Hassan, the engineering student, was a rising star in his college community. Another of the men was a pre-med student who had once set his sights on an internship at the Mayo Clinic. They did not leave the United States for a lack of opportunity, their friends said; if anything, they seemed driven by unfulfilled ambition.


See how terrorism is caused by poverty?
The engineering student must have seen all the jobs outsourced, and the pre-med saw the results of socialized medicine.
/NOT

64 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:10:39pm

re: #57 Dianna

We played cops and robbers, generally.

The girls played the robbers, because we wanted to be chased. It was unusual for a boy to sign up for the robbers' side.

WE played the cowboys and Indians OLT described; and the girls were the Indians.

Until now, I never realized it worked out that way because we wanted to be chased.

65 Ay, Caramba  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:11:14pm

re: #58 Kenneth

Somali youth in Toronto were also joining the jihad in Somalia. Also, two of the Toronto 18 gang arrested for a terrorist conspiracy were Somalis.

So yes, we do have something to worry about with these people.

Maybe if Obama goes to Somalia and apologizes then everything will be OK. I want them to love us again.
///

66 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:11:26pm
67 dhg4  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:11:35pm

Related info from the Counterterrorism Blog.

68 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:12:02pm

re: #26 buzzsawmonkey

Didn't everyone grow up playing jihad and go seek?

They're jihading and seeking infidels to blow up.

69 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:12:09pm

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

I figure the girls were the Indians because they were into the warpaint.

Well, that's true. And long hair that could be braided.

70 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:12:49pm
71 debutaunt  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:13:00pm

re: #58 Kenneth

Somali youth in Toronto were also joining the jihad in Somalia. Also, two of the Toronto 18 gang arrested for a terrorist conspiracy were Somalis.

So yes, we do have something to worry about with these people.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali came out of Somalia.

72 LGoPs  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:13:04pm

re: #30 OldLineTexan

We suburban goyim played "genocidal imperialist lackeys and oppressed Native American indigenous peoples."

/

We played combat engineers and radical environmentalists. They'd climb and hug trees and we'd blow the shit out of them...
/

73 mattm  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:13:11pm

OT

Obama's campaign site still active, with the "donate Now" button displayed but is called "Organizing for America."

74 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:13:34pm

re: #60 Son of the Black Dog

Krugman is one of those doomsayers, always forecasting a down economy. Even when the economy was booming. He's definitely one of those stopped watches. The only reason most business/economy shows have him on as a talking head is because of his Nobel prize.

75 mattm  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:13:35pm

re: #73 mattm

OT

Obama's campaign site still active, with the "donate Now" button displayed but is called "Organizing for America."

The [Link: www.barackobama.com...] domain is still used.

76 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:13:47pm

re: #70 buzzsawmonkey

Beaux? Break out the batons. /Hogwarts

77 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:13:51pm
78 dhg4  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:14:03pm

re: #62 Kenneth

Thanks, Kenneth!

79 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:14:16pm

re: #53 lawhawk

Funny, but no one in the Obama Administration is rushing to overturn the Patriot Act, most of which was overwrought hysterics about several provisions that do nothing to infringe on the rights of US citizens. They sure seem in a hurry to close Gitmo and change a whole host of policies, but the Patriot Act remains? Funny how that works.

It does quite a bit to stop foreign terrorists from acting though, and apparently more than a few on the left seem to conflate the two - on purpose no less.

The Obama Administration isn't going to give up those tools and they know that they work.

I suspect that the Obama administration is going to find some innovative and totally unexpected ways to use (abuse?) the Patriot Act. But you'll never hear a peep of protest from the MSM.

80 J.D.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:14:32pm

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

"Organizing for America?" Is the Obama Administration partnering with the Container Store?

If only!

81 cminmn  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:14:41pm

Living in Minneapolis I can say that this seems to be an issue that is ignored. This is one of the most politically correct cities in the country and since that means no right or wrong I am watching this city begin to crumble. The Somali youths have become brazen in their attitude towards this city and its other residents to the point that it is uncomfortable. Unfortunately the adult children running this city and state will not say anything out of fear that they may offend someone. It shouldn't be a surprise considering Keith Ellison is our congressmen.

82 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:14:48pm

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

"Organizing for America?" Is the Obama Administration partnering with the Container Store?

Yes! Empty out your wallet, put it in a container, mail it to the government.

They'll help you organize your cash right away. (An empty wallet is a tidy wallet.)

83 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:15:13pm

re: #71 debutaunt

Ayaan Hirsi Ali came out of Somalia.

Just for old times sake...she gives Avi a spanking her isn't worthy of:

84 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:15:18pm

re: #50 dhg4

I was curious to see what role, if any, Keith Ellison was playing and found this background. Ellison feels that the mosque has been unfairly targeted.

I read the article. It is my opinion that it looks like a big fat wad of steaming taqqiya, including Ellison's statements.

85 J.D.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:15:19pm

re: #82 EmmmieG

(An empty wallet is a tidy wallet.)


ROFL!

86 gander  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:15:35pm

I head they all have bracelets that say "What would Mohammad do?"

87 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:15:50pm

re: #72 LGoPs

We played combat engineers and radical environmentalists. They'd climb and hug trees and we'd blow the shit out of them...
/

You must be much younger than I am.
There was no such a thing as "radical environmentalists" while I was growing up.

88 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:15:50pm

re: #72 LGoPs

We used to play a game called Smear The Queer. No political corectness in the 70s.

89 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:16:27pm

re: #57 Dianna

We played cops and robbers, generally.

The girls played the robbers, because we wanted to be chased. It was unusual for a boy to sign up for the robbers' side.

You and your female classmates were how old at that time?

90 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:16:28pm

re: #86 gander

I head they all have bracelets that say "What would Mohammad do BOOOMMM?"

finicky timer!

91 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:16:49pm

re: #82 EmmmieG

Yes! Empty out your wallet, put it in a container, mail it to the government.

They'll help you organize your cash right away. (An empty wallet is a tidy wallet.)

And the media will tell us how much we are enjoying being poorer than we were before.

92 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:17:10pm

So who's funding the mosques and supplying the imams that are teaching jihad to these people?
I'll think about it when I fill my car with gas tonight.

93 LGoPs  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:17:41pm

re: #87 reine.de.tout

You must be much younger than I am.
There was no such a thing as "radical environmentalists" while I was growing up.

No. I'm older than you no doubt. I just made it up...but if they were around when I was a kid, we would've blown the shit out of them.
:)

94 Kragar  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:18:06pm

re: #92 Kosh's Shadow

So who's funding the mosques and supplying the imams that are teaching jihad to these people?
I'll think about it when I fill my car with gas tonight.

GAS? You bastard!
/radical enviroweenie

95 Dave the.....  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:18:20pm

I will be walking through little Mogadishu on my way to class tonight. The goods news? More Somalians have decided to emulate the African-American (you know what I mean) gang banger lifestyle. Lots of baggy pants, side-wise hats, and random crime.

96 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:18:28pm

Mr. Obama, watch this video!

97 Ben Hur  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:18:46pm

The solution is importing thousands of anti-American Palestinian Iraqis.

98 greygandalf  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:18:53pm

re: #51 sattv4u2

I never thought it was. Badly applied at times, yes, but for what it's intent is, nope


There are plenty of laws that are created out of good intention but do harm . Can't just look at a laws intent. Legalized abortion for example. It "helps" women and kills babies.

99 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:19:05pm

re: #74 BlueCanuck

Krugman is one of those doomsayers, always forecasting a down economy. Even when the economy was booming. He's definitely one of those stopped watches. The only reason most business/economy shows have him on as a talking head is because of his Nobel prize.

That, and his swarmy BDS attitude.

100 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:19:09pm

re: #43 sattv4u2

Someone UPDING this for me. I can only give it ONE

All I have to say is read the blog ...

101 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:19:42pm

re: #96 Kenneth
Mr Obambi wishes he could talk as well as President Ronald Reagan.

102 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:20:08pm

re: #94 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

GAS? You bastard!
/radical enviroweenie

It's OK; I drive a Honda Civic and get 33-37 mpg.
Unfortunately, I have to commute 35 miles each way.

103 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:20:36pm

re: #101 pingjockey

Mr Obambi wishes he could talk as well as President Ronald Reagan.

He can, if it's on the teleprompter...

Otherwise, it's a whole lot of "um, er, uh..."

104 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:20:38pm

re: #95 Dave the...

That's goodnews??
So...Who's got the stolen semiauto in his waist band or the bomb vest??

105 LGoPs  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:20:49pm

re: #81 cminmn

Living in Minneapolis I can say that this seems to be an issue that is ignored. This is one of the most politically correct cities in the country and since that means no right or wrong I am watching this city begin to crumble. The Somali youths have become brazen in their attitude towards this city and its other residents to the point that it is uncomfortable. Unfortunately the adult children running this city and state will not say anything out of fear that they may offend someone. It shouldn't be a surprise considering Keith Ellison is our congressmen.

Liberalism, as it's practiced today is a recipe for societal suicide. And only humans are stupid enough to engage in it. There are no liberal rabbits for instance. And the proof of that is that rabbits are not extinct...

106 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:20:55pm

re: #97 Ben Hur

The solution is importing thousands of anti-American Palestinian Iraqis.

We have to replace the jihadis who are leaving to blow up Somalia.
/

107 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:21:06pm

re: #102 Kosh's Shadow
S'alright. My carbon footprint is huge! I'm on the road 6 hours a day!

108 Dianna  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:21:31pm

re: #89 NelsFree

You and your female classmates were how old at that time?

About 4, that I recall. Or, I was, but I was a year younger than everyone else.

Yes, I know. But girls really do have it clear that they're the ones who should be pursued even that young.

Chase games start very early. I think girls consider it practice. Certainly, there were always boys we allowed to catch us more easily. And girls that boys tried harder to catch...

109 Racer X  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:21:45pm

re: #92 Kosh's Shadow

So who's funding the mosques and supplying the imams that are teaching jihad to these people?
I'll think about it when I fill my car with gas tonight.

Bingo!

That there is why I am not going batshit crazy over AGW. The unintended consequence will be fewer rich terrorist organizations. Now if the AGW crowd can only keep from fucking something else up we will be OK.

110 finneaus  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:21:51pm

At least it seems many of the local Somalians are on to CAIR- I live in MPLS and was surprised to come across this- it did my heart good!

111 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:22:08pm

re: #101 pingjockey

I was referring to Obama's rewriting the history of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Communist regimes of eastern Europe.

112 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:22:20pm

re: #107 pingjockey

S'alright. My carbon footprint is huge! I'm on the road 6 hours a day!

Good; you make up for me, then. We need to prevent global cooling warming climate change.
/

113 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:22:25pm

re: #108 Dianna

About 4, that I recall. Or, I was, but I was a year younger than everyone else.

Yes, I know. But girls really do have it clear that they're the ones who should be pursued even that young.

Chase games start very early. I think girls consider it practice. Certainly, there were always boys we allowed to catch us more easily. And girls that boys tried harder to catch
...

absolutely true.

114 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:22:30pm

re: #97 Ben Hur

The solution is importing thousands of anti-American Palestinian Iraqis.

I cannot beileve we're actually doing this.

115 Ay, Caramba  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:22:33pm

re: #107 pingjockey

It's not the size of the carbon footprint, it's how you use it.
/

116 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:22:39pm

re: #37 sattv4u2

I recall 9/11 being carried out by LESS than that number!!

Just sayin!

I understand that, at the same time, to over react and act like America is one step away from destruction and we all have to accept the loss of liberty and freedom out of fear of death, is not a response that should be accepted. We're Americans, We're going to let 20 people make us deathly afraid of shadows? To heck with that!

Everyon here has heard the quote that those who would give up freedom for security ends up with neither, but it serves as a reminder. It's because we aren't just another police state that we are better than them.

Turning America upside down over a couple of dozen people, no matter how horrible they are, means that it's no longer America.

117 Dave the.....  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:23:01pm

104 relo

That's goodnews??
So...Who's got the stolen semiauto in his waist band or the bomb vest??

I was being sarcastic, but the gang thing is interesting. One time...I think last fall. They were two trucks of Somali gangers driving down the street firing at each other. Commentators said it is just like home for them.

118 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:23:07pm

re: #103 MrSilverDragon
Nah. Obambi, even with the TOTUS can't deliver lines like RWR. He(the one) is NOT some gifted speaker the press makes him out to be.
FNC just played the swimmers slander of Robt. Bork. I'd forgot how foolish that man is.

119 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:23:42pm

re: #116 bloodstar

I understand that, at the same time, to over react and act like America is one step away from destruction and we all have to accept the loss of liberty and freedom out of fear of death, is not a response that should be accepted. We're Americans, We're going to let 20 people make us deathly afraid of shadows? To heck with that!

Everyon here has heard the quote that those who would give up freedom for security ends up with neither, but it serves as a reminder. It's because we aren't just another police state that we are better than them.

Turning America upside down over a couple of dozen people, no matter how horrible they are, means that it's no longer America.

We are currently living in a "police state" because the Patriot Act is still in effect?
Really?

120 Kragar  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:23:47pm

People unclear on the concept:

Obama Says Economic Stimulus Plan Worked as Intended

“It has already extended unemployment insurance and health insurance to those who have lost their jobs in this recession,” Obama, who is traveling today in Ghana, said in his weekly Saturday radio and Web address. “It has delivered $43 billion in tax relief to American working families and business.”

Seems to me that real economic recovery would have those people working again, not simply have the government paying their unemployment.

121 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:24:23pm

re: #118 pingjockey

Nah. Obambi, even with the TOTUS can't deliver lines like RWR. He(the one) is NOT some gifted speaker the press makes him out to be.
FNC just played the swimmers slander of Robt. Bork. I'd forgot how foolish that man is.

He can talk like him, he just can't orate like him. :)

122 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:24:29pm

re: #111 Kenneth
Ah yes. Rewrite. RWR and with some help from Mrs. Thatcher broke the Sovs asses and will never be forgiven by any marxists anywhere.

123 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:24:44pm
Liberalism, as it's practiced today is a recipe for societal suicide. And only humans are stupid enough to engage in it. There are no liberal rabbits for instance. And the proof of that is that rabbits are not extinct...

Yeah, just ask Jimmy Carter.

124 Sabnen  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:24:55pm

NPR started following this story back in March. I've linked their latest story here:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

and it has links back to the beginning story in March.

No real meat and potatoes reporting with an opinion attached (unusual for NPR), but they do report the bare facts at least.

125 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:25:07pm

re: #115 Ay, Caramba
Heh. I use mine quite well, or so I've been told!!

126 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:25:24pm

re: #87 reine.de.tout

You must be much younger than I am.
There was no such a thing as "radical environmentalists" while I was growing up.

Oh, they were around. They just weren't called that and had a lower profile. But they were there.

127 LGoPs  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:25:27pm

re: #116 bloodstar

I understand that, at the same time, to over react and act like America is one step away from destruction and we all have to accept the loss of liberty and freedom out of fear of death, is not a response that should be accepted. We're Americans, We're going to let 20 people make us deathly afraid of shadows? To heck with that!

Everyon here has heard the quote that those who would give up freedom for security ends up with neither, but it serves as a reminder. It's because we aren't just another police state that we are better than them.

Turning America upside down over a couple of dozen people, no matter how horrible they are, means that it's no longer America.

What liberty and freedom did you lose? You must have been on a special double secret list...because I didn't lose any of mine.
It must suck to be you.

128 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:25:29pm
129 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:25:44pm

re: #118 pingjockey

Nah. Obambi, even with the TOTUS can't deliver lines like RWR. He(the one) is NOT some gifted speaker the press makes him out to be.
FNC just played the swimmers slander of Robt. Bork. I'd forgot how foolish that man is.

What!?

"We are the ones we have been waiting for."

That doesn't just fill you up with hope and change?
//

130 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:26:01pm

re: #122 pingjockey

Ah yes. Rewrite. RWR and with some help from Mrs. Thatcher broke the Sovs asses and will never be forgiven by any Marxists anywhere.

Don't forget the help Pope John-Paul II provided. His support for Solidarity in Poland was key. The 3 of them together defeated the USSR.

131 soxfan4life  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:27:02pm

re: #130 Kenneth

Don't forget the help Pope John-Paul II provided. His support for Solidarity in Poland was key. The 3 of them together defeated the USSR.

Silly you it was all Jimmah Carter.///

132 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:27:02pm

re: #98 greygandalf

There are plenty of laws that are created out of good intention but do harm . Can't just look at a laws intent. Legalized abortion for example. It "helps" women and kills babies.

So we should criminilze abortion?

Your daughter is raped, or worse, raped by a relative. Your wives life is in jeapordy in the 1st trimester. . Doctor also knows there is probably little chance of the baby surviving gestation. Only way to save her life is to abort

"Tough it out , honey. MAYBE you'll both make it"

feh!

"Keep the baby honey, abortion is WRONG!"

133 cminmn  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:27:13pm

re: #86 gander

It's a fuse.

134 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:27:14pm

re: #116 bloodstar
You are nuts. We haven't lost any freedoms due to the Patriot Act. What are you thinking of? Phone taps on suspected terrorists, OK by me.

135 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:27:17pm

re: #116 bloodstar

Yeah, TSA airport security blows.

136 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:28:00pm

re: #130 Kenneth
Palm to forehead! You are so right. The Pope loved poking the Sovs in the eye.

137 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:28:10pm

re: #131 soxfan4life

re: #130 Kenneth


Silly you it was all Jimmah Carter.///

Wait! Are you sure it wasn't an altruistic Gorbachev who decided to dismantle his own country?

138 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:28:34pm

re: #134 pingjockey

You are nuts. We haven't lost any freedoms due to the Patriot Act. What are you thinking of? Phone taps on suspected terrorists, OK DEMANDED by me.

ftfy

139 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:28:35pm

re: #135 Alouette

Yeah, TSA airport security blows.

I think the terrorists are more afraid passengers will beat the shit out of them with airline meals than of the TSA.

140 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:28:48pm

re: #135 Alouette

Yeah, TSA airport security blows.

without a happy ending, no less.

141 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:28:56pm

re: #134 pingjockey

You are nuts. We haven't lost any freedoms due to the Patriot Act. What are you thinking of? Phone taps on suspected terrorists, OK by me.

I am sure I am already on every list out there...just good for marketers to sell me a new gadget...

142 soxfan4life  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:29:06pm

re: #137 Fenway_Nation

Wait! Are you sure it wasn't an altruistic Gorbachev who decided to dismantle his own country?

It was all Jimmy. At least that's what liberal educators tell me.

143 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:29:09pm

re: #138 sattv4u2
Mucho grassy ass.

144 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:29:32pm

re: #53 lawhawk

Funny, but no one in the Obama Administration is rushing to overturn the Patriot Act, most of which was overwrought hysterics about several provisions that do nothing to infringe on the rights of US citizens. They sure seem in a hurry to close Gitmo and change a whole host of policies, but the Patriot Act remains? Funny how that works.

It does quite a bit to stop foreign terrorists from acting though, and apparently more than a few on the left seem to conflate the two - on purpose no less.

The Obama Administration isn't going to give up those tools and they know that they work.

I Expect Obama is more than willing to take the same expansion of excutive power and run with it. It doesn't make it any better because suddenly someone else is in power.

A bad law is a bad law no matter which party is in power. It magically doesn't become ok simply because there's a D or an R next to your name.

145 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:29:57pm

re: #142 soxfan4life
oxymoron = liberal educators

146 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:30:01pm

re: #137 Fenway_Nation

Wait a minute, maybe it was Obama's Berlin Rally Sppech form last summer. Yeah, that must have been it!

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:30:50pm

re: #1 debutaunt

These huddled masses aren't melting.

I suspect that most are. In my great-grandparents generation there were those who trekked back to Russia to help the revolution. Most stayed put and made America home.

148 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:31:07pm

re: #144 bloodstar
A bad law is the one the klintoon kamp came up with so the FBI/CIA couldn't share info.

149 soxfan4life  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:31:08pm

re: #145 pingjockey

Kind of redundant isn't it?

150 Racer X  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:32:19pm

re: #116 bloodstar

C'mon. Spit it out. You've got a point to make - make it.

Is it:
1. Bush sucks!
2. I love Obama!
3. Conservatives are stupid evil people
4. America is bad

All of the above?

151 soxfan4life  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:32:26pm

re: #148 pingjockey

A bad law is the one the klintoon kamp came up with so the FBI/CIA couldn't share info.

I thought Bush was the only President to come up with bad laws, at least that is what the TV news wants me to believe.

152 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:33:13pm

re: #149 soxfan4life
Hehehe!
Hell, I was an educator, granted it was electronics and sonar theory, application. I could do a better job of teaching history than most of the fools on campus now. Problem is, it would address American exceptionalism and that is RIGHT OUT on most campuses today.

153 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:33:32pm

re: #150 Racer X

C'mon. Spit it out. You've got a point to make - make it.

Is it:
1. Bush sucks!
2. I love Obama!
3. Conservatives are stupid evil people
4. America is bad

All of the above?

To be honest...I am not a fan of the Patriot Act either...*adjusts tinfoil hat*...

154 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:33:52pm

re: #108 Dianna

But girls really do have it clear that they're the ones who should be pursued even that young.


You flirtatious thing you! Your Husband is very lucky. I can just picture you flipping your blonde hair around while you type..
/falls off chair

155 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:34:12pm

re: #151 soxfan4life
It is all McChimpyBushHitlerHalliburton and da jooos fault. According to the left.

156 Racer X  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:34:33pm

re: #143 pingjockey

Mucho grassy ass.

Mow the lawn, will ya.

157 soxfan4life  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:35:01pm

re: #155 pingjockey

It is all McChimpyBushHitlerHalliburton and da jooos fault. According to the left.

Don't forget Darth Cheney.

158 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:35:13pm

re: #156 Racer X
Ha! Did that yesterday. Good thing too, it rained like mad last night.

159 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:35:42pm

re: #157 soxfan4life
Oops. Him and the Evil Lord Rove.

160 soxfan4life  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:35:49pm

re: #158 pingjockey

Ha! Did that yesterday. Good thing too, it rained like mad last night.

Rain in Washington State, does Algore know about this?

161 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:35:54pm

re: #98 greygandalf

There are plenty of laws that are created out of good intention but do harm . Can't just look at a laws intent. Legalized abortion for example. It "helps" women and kills babies.

This is a toughie for me because I am anti-abortion.

However, women who want an abortion will seek it, regardless of whether or not it's legal. If it is going to happen, I would rather that women have safe care.

Abortions will stop when everyone has been convinced the alternative is better; and those of us who are anti-abortion would do well to support and promote those types of efforts.

162 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:36:53pm

re: #150 Racer X

Let's not scare Bloodstar off. Not yet, at least. Who's got the popcorn?

163 Racer X  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:36:54pm

The handlers have said its OK to put on the lunch feedbag.

BBL

164 Jack Burton  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:36:57pm

re: #134 pingjockey

You are nuts. We haven't lost any freedoms due to the Patriot Act. What are you thinking of? Phone taps on suspected terrorists, OK by me.

There are still people running around out there who actually believe that Bush suspended habeas corpus and that the NSA was tapping everyone's phones.

The whole "illegal combatants captured abroad have no constitutional rights or legal rights under international law" totally goes over their head. The warrantless wiretaps deal requiring one side of the conversation being a terrorist suspect in a foreign country, is also apparently beyond their comprehension.

165 Dianna  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:37:10pm

re: #139 Kosh's Shadow

I think the terrorists are more afraid passengers will beat the shit out of them with airline meals than of the TSA.

That seems an appropriate use of airline meals.

166 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:37:32pm

re: #160 soxfan4life
On the east side of the Cascades no less! We're on the dry side. Luckily with all the thunderstorms it rained, not dry lightning, so hopefully we won't end up with a bunch of forest fires.

167 Dianna  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:37:41pm

re: #154 NelsFree

You flirtatious thing you! Your Husband is very lucky. I can just picture you flipping your blonde hair around while you type..
/falls off chair

I'm sending that to my Male!

168 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:38:04pm

re: #139 Kosh's Shadow

re: #165 Dianna

That seems an appropriate use of airline meals.

cruel and unusual NOURISHMENT!

169 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:38:47pm

re: #161 reine.de.tout
I'm with you. I don't like it, but it is the law and I'd rather have a woman who makes such a choice have proper medical facilities.

170 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:38:49pm

re: #164 ArchangelMichael

There are still people running around out there who actually believe that Bush suspended habeas corpus and that the NSA was tapping everyone's phones.

The whole "illegal combatants captured abroad have no constitutional rights or legal rights under international law" totally goes over their head. The warrantless wiretaps deal requiring one side of the conversation being a terrorist suspect in a foreign country, is also apparently beyond their comprehension.

And yet their hero Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. The only reason he didn't tap phones was that there weren't any yet. I wonder if he tapped telegraph lines?

171 Ben Hur  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:39:47pm

Hey. THere's an update. The mosque is suddenly notorius. So now we can praise the community when they get sick of the all the attention to the radicals that for some reason didn't bother anyone before...You know, the common uprising of peace loving citizens that will bode for a better future of coexistance and all the other BS that was written in the English mosque thread way back when.

Though this is different.

SOmehow.

172 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:39:58pm

re: #164 ArchangelMichael
Redding compreheshun is not big in some circles. Or comprehenshun of reality either.

173 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:40:10pm

re: #161 reine.de.tout

Amen. To your proscription I will add, ...and when liberals teach self-responsibility to young people.

174 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:40:54pm

re: #161 reine.de.tout

This is a toughie for me because I am anti-abortion.

However, women who want an abortion will seek it, regardless of whether or not it's legal. If it is going to happen, I would rather that women have safe care.

Abortions will stop when everyone has been convinced the alternative is better; and those of us who are anti-abortion would do well to support and promote those types of efforts.


There will never be a time when 100% agree on this issue, either way. I too am anti-abortion. It is my understanding that 50 million babies were not born because of abortion since Roe V. Wade. The current US population is 300 million; what an incredible difference those lives could have made. We'll never know.

175 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:41:40pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

We are currently living in a "police state" because the Patriot Act is still in effect?
Really?

From Drudge

A home-schooled 16-year-old in North Carolina was arrested by FBI agents in February and is being held without charge in Indiana after authorities alleged that a bomb threat was made from an IP address in his home. A federal judge has put a gag order on the case that prevents the U.S. attorney in Indiana or FBI from commenting on the detention of Ashton Lundeby, 16. "We have no rights under the Patriot Act," said his mother Annette Lundeby. "It wasn't intended to drag your barely 16-year-old, 120-pound son out in the middle of the night on a charge that we can't even defend."

I would argue we are more on a slippery slope. We're not a police state yet, but when you have police departments and city governments putting up cameras on every street corner, Local departments purchasing tanks .

Take a look at what's happening in Great Britain. We're not that far behind.

176 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:42:29pm

re: #173 Kenneth
That is the parents responsibility. I know. I know, the current climate doesn't teach such things, but we all have to try in our own way. I have an audience of 6 teenage boys, my son and his bunch and I pound it into their heads about being responsible for their own acts!

177 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:42:41pm

re: #167 Dianna

I'm sending that to my Male!

...and I am placing many pillows around my computer chair!
/h

178 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:43:08pm

Liz Cheney on Obama

I've been in and out all day and don't know if anyone has seen this piece by Liz Cheney in the WSJ.

There are two different versions of the story of the end of the Cold War: the Russian version, and the truth. President Barack Obama endorsed the Russian version in Moscow last week.



Perhaps Mr. Obama thinks he is making America inoffensive to our enemies. In reality, he is emboldening them and weakening us. America can be disarmed literally -- by cutting our weapons systems and our defensive capabilities -- as Mr. Obama has agreed to do. We can also be disarmed morally by a president who spreads false narratives about our history or who accepts, even if by his silence, our enemies' lies about us.

Spot on, Liz.

179 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:43:20pm

re: #173 Kenneth

Amen. To your proscription I will add, ...and when liberals teach self-responsibility to young people.

This is true, although I will say . . . we can preach and teach self-responsibility, but some young 'uns won't get it unless they learn the hard way. I've got a hard-headed teen who paid me no mind.

180 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:43:24pm

re: #174 NelsFree

There will never be a time when 100% agree on this issue, either way. I too am anti-abortion. It is my understanding that 50 million babies were not born because of abortion since Roe V. Wade. The current US population is 300 million; what an incredible difference those lives could have made. We'll never know.

Half of them would have been African-American. I wonder if Obama has thought about that?

181 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:43:41pm

re: #165 Dianna

That seems an appropriate use of airline meals.

The guests at Gitmo refused to eat them, claiming it was torture.

182 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:43:56pm

re: #172 pingjockey

Redding compreheshun is not big in some circles. Or comprehenshun of reality either.

Otis Redding comprehension?

Show some R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

183 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:44:13pm

re: #129 Oh no...Sand People!

"We are the ones we have been waiting for."

That doesn't just fill you up with hope and change?

By far the most narcissistic, be-knighted, messianic complex, LAUGHABLE bit of "0" speak to date.
"0" is a disaster.
I 'm waiting for "0"s exit.

184 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:44:13pm

re: #178 Russkilitlover

Oh, sorry. Meant to label it "OT."

185 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:44:27pm
186 Dianna  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:44:43pm

re: #175 bloodstar

That's an armored personnel carrier, and a whole lot of SWAT departments have them. The idea being to be able to get the officers to the action without getting them shot in the process.

It's not a tank.

Be accurate.

187 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:44:50pm

re: #175 bloodstar

I would argue we are more on a slippery slope. We're not a police state yet, but when you have police departments and city governments putting up cameras on every street corner, Local departments purchasing tanks .

Take a look at what's happening in Great Britain. We're not that far behind.

Geez, get your facts straight. A M113 is NOT a tank. It's an APC or Armoured Personal Carrier. Even during the Vietnam war it had a poor reputation. And this whole slippery slope thing? Most governments that are employing red light or speeding cameras are decidedly left of center.

188 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:44:59pm

re: #176 pingjockey

Very true. Liberal and leftist parents need to teach it to their kids, but they don't. Public schools don't teach it and popular culture doesn't reflect it either.

189 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:45:14pm

re: #175 bloodstar

I would argue we are more on a slippery slope. We're not a police state yet, but when you have police departments and city governments putting up cameras on every street corner, Local departments purchasing tanks .

Take a look at what's happening in Great Britain. We're not that far behind.

Did the kid make a bomb threat?
A 16-year-old is plenty old enough to understand that is not something "cute" to do.

190 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:45:31pm

re: #175 bloodstar
The law will be abused by some, on the whole it isn't. As far as tanks go, you ever see some of the fortifications some of the crack houses have, or a rescue of folks pinned down by some lunatic sniper. I live in a town of 50,000 and the have an armored vehicle for such occasions.

191 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:45:51pm

re: #175 bloodstar

after authorities alleged that a bomb threat was made from an IP address in his home

"We have no rights under the Patriot Act," said his mother Annette Lundeby. "It wasn't intended to drag your barely 16-year-old, 120-pound son out in the middle of the night

I notice that neither you nor the mother comments on just HOW a bomb threat was made from her puters IP address!!

Bad example,,, AGAIN!

192 Dianna  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:45:54pm

re: #181 Alouette

The guests at Gitmo refused to eat them, claiming it was torture.

What does that say about poor airline passengers?!

193 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:46:16pm

OT--In the meantime, I still have Cab Calloway yodeling away in my head from the last thread.

LGF--at least you'll get quality music stuck in your head.

194 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:46:48pm

re: #182 Mad Al-Jaffee
Nah, old SNL skit. The Evelynn Woodhead Sped Readin' Course.

195 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:46:54pm

re: #193 EmmmieG

Lucky you, I have been rick-rolled numerous times here. :)

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:49:03pm

re: #46 pingjockey

Hmmm, don't recall neonazis flying planes into buildings, ecoterrorists blowing up the Pentagon, or survivalists planning on taking out the WH.
Granted all 3 of the above have done OK City, burned down condos, attacked and destroyed research labs, but not a terror attack on the scale of 9/11.

Problem is, it's not for want of ill will, and before 9/11, jihadis hadn't done most of that either. The ground rules are changing.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:49:44pm

re: #52 Russkilitlover

They've kept your ass safe.

A Benjamin Franklin quote comes to mind there...

198 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:49:51pm

re: #175 bloodstar

I would argue we are more on a slippery slope. We're not a police state yet, but when you have police departments and city governments putting up cameras on every street corner, Local departments purchasing tanks .

Take a look at what's happening in Great Britain. We're not that far behind.

Dear Bloodstar,

Oh my. Where to begin. Every street corner? Tanks against people with access to automatic weapons actually makes sense. The multiculturalists are responsible for much of 'what's happening in the UK', and Obama is trying to catch us up.
You know, I'm beginning to get a picture of you, and, well, it ain't pretty.

Love, NelsFree

199 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:50:21pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist
The blew the shit out of 2 embassys in Africa.

200 MikeAlv77  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:52:30pm

re: #132 sattv4u2

So we should criminilze abortion?

Your daughter is raped, or worse, raped by a relative. Your wives life is in jeapordy in the 1st trimester. . Doctor also knows there is probably little chance of the baby surviving gestation. Only way to save her life is to abort

"Tough it out , honey. MAYBE you'll both make it"

Be careful making that argument. Look at the stats. Most (meaning almost all) abortions are done as a form of birth control.

feh!

"Keep the baby honey, abortion is WRONG!"

201 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:52:56pm

re: #128 buzzsawmonkey

The preceding has been a paid political announcement by Friends of the Mafia.

Ironic that you'd say that, I'd argue that Prohibition was one of the facilitators of the Mafia, and that afterwords we now have RICO to deal with, and now it's devolved to the point of being used against Anti-Abortion Protesters.

Congress and state assemblies can claim a law is supposed to be used for a purpose, but unless they specifically say that, The Police and Prosecution will run with the broadest interpretations they can possibly squeeze out of a law in order to cast the widest net.

What congress has done lately with passing laws that haven't been read, 9/11, TARP, the Stimulus package, etc all are great examples of laws that may have had good intentions but are wide open to abuse and misuse because no one knows what it really says or does.

202 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:52:59pm

re: #37 sattv4u2


Within 24 hours, 2 MN Jihadies could effectively cripple the Missouri, the Mississippi, The Rock, The Ohio.

203 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:53:07pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist


They bombed the USS Cole, the Khobar tower barracks and the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania prior to 9/11...

204 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:53:54pm

re: #132 sattv4u2

So we should criminilze abortion?

Your daughter is raped, or worse, raped by a relative. Your wives life is in jeapordy in the 1st trimester. . Doctor also knows there is probably little chance of the baby surviving gestation. Only way to save her life is to abort

"Tough it out , honey. MAYBE you'll both make it"

feh!

"Keep the baby honey, abortion is WRONG!"

Yes, that covers about 3% of abortions.

205 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:55:41pm

re: #204 Eowyn2

Yes, that covers about 3% of abortions.

So those 3% of rape, incest victims and endagered mothers lives should be thrwon in jail if they decide to illegally abort? Thats the country you want?

Don't get me wrong. I am pro-life, but I WOULD make exceptions for the cases I cited

206 MikeAlv77  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:57:01pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

So those 3% of rape, incest victims and endagered mothers lives should be thrwon in jail if they decide to illegally abort? Thats the country you want?

Don't get me wrong. I am pro-life, but I WOULD make exceptions for the cases I cited

Exceptions for those but that is the talking point for the pro-choice crowd. Do we want incest babies or rape babies and what about the mother's life. Its a weak argument and the law could add that as the exception.

207 1SG(ret)  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:58:38pm

re: #175 bloodstar

M113A1 isn't a tank. It's a Armoured Personnel carrier. Shown here

This is a Tank M1A1

208 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:58:54pm

re: #175 bloodstar

I would argue we are more on a slippery slope. We're not a police state yet, but when you have police departments and city governments putting up cameras on every street corner, Local departments purchasing tanks .

Take a look at what's happening in Great Britain. We're not that far behind.

16-year-olds have been known to make pipe bombs.
And gag orders are not uncommon in criminal cases, at least until all the evidence is collected.
This isn't someone just speaking out; this is someone threatening violence.

209 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:59:12pm

re: #206 MikeAlv77

see my 205


(and it's NOT a "weak argument". Do you know any rape victimes that were impregnated? I do. Do you know any minor incest victims that got pregnant? I've met one! Do you know any women whose lives were in jeapordy if they brought took a fetus to term, one that had a one in one hundred chance to mmake it while the mother had a 99% chance to not? Meet my sister!

210 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:59:16pm

re: #201 bloodstar

Ironic that you'd say that, I'd argue that Prohibition was one of the facilitators of the Mafia, and that afterwords we now have RICO to deal with, and now it's devolved to the point of being used against Anti-Abortion Protesters.

Congress and state assemblies can claim a law is supposed to be used for a purpose, but unless they specifically say that, The Police and Prosecution will run with the broadest interpretations they can possibly squeeze out of a law in order to cast the widest net.

What congress has done lately with passing laws that haven't been read, 9/11, TARP, the Stimulus package, etc all are great examples of laws that may have had good intentions but are wide open to abuse and misuse because no one knows what it really says or does.

You really are making broad sweeping statements that cannot be supported. Class, what do we call that?
As for your last paragraph, you therefore are against the Democrat-controlled Congress passing the most recent legislation?

211 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:59:32pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

That point was being made that the arguments most often put forward in support of legal abortion are rape/incest and birth defect endangering the mother. At most those cases represent 3% of all abortions. It's a bit disingenuous to advocate the necessity of a law on the basis of it being needed in only 3% of the time it is used.

212 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:59:33pm

re: #112 Kosh's Shadow

Good; you make up for me, then. We need to prevent global cooling warming climate change.
/

heh...yeah, 'cause this climate is the optimal climate for everything! Algore told me so...
//

213 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:00:05pm

re: #194 pingjockey

Nah, old SNL skit. The Evelynn Woodhead Sped Readin' Course.

I thought it was Woodski.

214 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:00:22pm
215 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:00:41pm

re: #211 Kenneth

That point was being made that the arguments most often put forward in support of legal abortion are rape/incest and birth defect endangering the mother. At most those cases represent 3% of all abortions. It's a bit disingenuous to advocate the necessity of a law on the basis of it being needed in only 3% of the time it is used.

So make abortion ILLEGAL

NOW ,, tell me what you do with those 3%!

216 NelsFree  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:01:49pm

OOoooh, new thread!
I'm upstairs, everyone. If Bloodstar shows up, he can comment on the "Wise Latina" statement.
/C Ya

217 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:01:52pm

re: #175 bloodstar
From Drudge

A home-schooled 16-year-old in North Carolina was arrested by FBI agents in February and is being held without charge in Indiana after authorities alleged that a bomb threat was made from an IP address in his home. A federal judge has put a gag order on the case that prevents the U.S. attorney in Indiana or FBI from commenting on the detention of Ashton Lundeby, 16. "We have no rights under the Patriot Act," said his mother Annette Lundeby. "It wasn't intended to drag your barely 16-year-old, 120-pound son out in the middle of the night on a charge that we can't even defend."

Since the IP address was in the mother's home as well, the FBI must have had a reason to suspect it was the son and not the parents who sent the bomb threat. Snapshot of a case is not a case.

218 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:02:17pm

re: #214 buzzsawmonkey
It's howling about the Patriot Act.

219 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:02:54pm

re: #150 Racer X

C'mon. Spit it out. You've got a point to make - make it.

Is it:
1. Bush sucks!
2. I love Obama!
3. Conservatives are stupid evil people
4. America is bad

All of the above?

Dude, I voted for Barr, I don't know what crack you're smoking over there, But if it's any consolation, the Young Republicans Just voted a Racist in as their leader. So, yeah, if that's the face of the Republican party, then yeah, they're pretty stupid and evil ;).

I love America, Why do you think I'm willing to speak out and argue against things that I believe will weaken us. Why do you think I'm willing to say something against things that I fear make America less than what it can be.

This isn't Redstate, one side isn't always right, and I'll be the first to say that there are aspects of the PATRIOT Act that were necessary and important to update the laws to match the jumps in technology. But there were a number of points in the PATRIOT Act that were unconstitional, and more importantly, were unable to be challenged as unconstitional, because the very nature of the laws prevented anyone from having standing to challenge the law. A law that cannot be reviewed by the courts for constitionality is, by definition, a very Dangerous and bad law.

220 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:03:08pm

re: #215 sattv4u2

Actually, pro-choice people need to make an honest and convincing argument for the necessity of legal abortion as a means of birth control in the 97% of cases when neither rape, nor incest nor medical necessity is an issue. To hide behind that 3% is a moral and intellectual fraud.

221 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:04:01pm

re: #194 pingjockey

Nah, old SNL skit. The Evelynn Woodhead Sped Readin' Course.


boy are you out of date ;-)

That's from a 1973 Cheech & Chong album called "Los Cochinos".

SNL didn't start until 1975.

222 lincolntf  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:04:44pm

This story sucks. Not because it's inaccurate or shocking, but because it depresses me. I used to live in a City that accepted hundreds (maybe thousands) of Sudanese children (as opposed to Somalis) as part of a humanitarian movement. I used to love seeing the kids walking to and from school, always well-dressed and always respectful of the those around them, unlike the American kids who dressed like slobs and constantly stopped traffic by meandering across the street. People around me would say "Yeah, but wait until they get older and become criminals or terrorists...".
It always pissed me off that they would assume that these kids would replicate the insanity and violence that they fled from. Apparently, in the case of these Somalis at least, the people I was disagreeing with have been proven right.
Damn shame, as well as being a major National Security nightmare.

223 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:04:51pm
224 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:05:03pm

re: #220 Kenneth

Actually, pro-choice people need to make an honest and convincing argument for the necessity of legal abortion as a means of birth control in the 97% of cases when neither rape, nor incest nor medical necessity is an issue. To hide behind that 3% is a moral and intellectual fraud.

But I noticed the tap dance to NOT answer

I'll ask you a staright out yes or no question. Should abortion be illegal

225 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:05:08pm

re: #221 eschew_obfuscation
Well crap. Knew it was when I was in high school!
Thought it was SNL, thanks.

226 Cygnus  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:06:30pm

re: #26 buzzsawmonkey

Didn't everyone grow up playing jihad and go seek?

Or Jihadists and Infidels?

227 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:06:34pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

So those 3% of rape, incest victims and endagered mothers lives should be thrwon in jail if they decide to illegally abort? Thats the country you want?

Don't get me wrong. I am pro-life, but I WOULD make exceptions for the cases I cited

I never said I wanted to see all abortions become illegal, we sit at the same place. But seriously, there is something morally reprehensible with the idea that every abortion can be equated to rape or incest or the mother's life being in danger. As long as people continue to see an "all or nothing" on the abortion issue, it will be a wedge.

228 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:09:09pm

re: #191 sattv4u2

after authorities alleged that a bomb threat was made from an IP address in his home

"We have no rights under the Patriot Act," said his mother Annette Lundeby. "It wasn't intended to drag your barely 16-year-old, 120-pound son out in the middle of the night

I notice that neither you nor the mother comments on just HOW a bomb threat was made from her puters IP address!!

Bad example,,, AGAIN!

You're missing the point. If american Citizens can be held without access to lawyers or counsel then we have a problem. Who cares if he did it or not. The point stands. declaring someone a Terrorist and then refusing to let them access to the legal system is a terrible precedent.

229 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:09:38pm

re: #227 Eowyn2

I never said I wanted to see all abortions become illegal, we sit at the same place. But seriously, there is something morally reprehensible with the idea that every abortion can be equated to rape or incest or the mother's life being in danger. As long as people continue to see an "all or nothing" on the abortion issue, it will be a wedge.

Rape and/ or incest are criminal acts and can be verified as such. So I don't see a reprehensiblity in that. Endangered mothers life could be argued, because a differnt doctor could come up with a different diagnoses.

BUT ,,, if the 3% number is accurate (give or take a percentage or 2) allowing abortion in THOSE cases and those cases only would decrease the abortions in the country by 95/96/97%!!

230 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:09:40pm

re: #224 sattv4u2

I decline to answer the question because your use of it is an example of the kind of moral hypocrisy I am talking about. To insist that the most important reason for legal abortion is to provide for that 3% of cases is intellectual deceit. It is also irrelevant to the legal basis of why abortion is legal in the US.

231 Cygnus  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:10:32pm

re: #76 lawhawk

Beaux? Break out the batons. /Hogwarts

Then you can play Aurors and Death Eaters.

232 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:11:51pm

re: #230 Kenneth

I decline to answer the question because your use of it is an example of the kind of moral hypocrisy I am talking about. To insist that the most important reason for legal abortion is to provide for that 3% of cases is intellectual deceit. It is also irrelevant to the legal basis of why abortion is legal in the US.

You refuse to answer a basic question "should abortiion be legal/ illegal"

wow ,,, just ,,, wow ,,Way to have the courage of your convictions

233 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:12:43pm

re: #222 lincolntf

This story sucks. Not because it's inaccurate or shocking, but because it depresses me. I used to live in a City that accepted hundreds (maybe thousands) of Sudanese children (as opposed to Somalis) as part of a humanitarian movement. I used to love seeing the kids walking to and from school, always well-dressed and always respectful of the those around them, unlike the American kids who dressed like slobs and constantly stopped traffic by meandering across the street. People around me would say "Yeah, but wait until they get older and become criminals or terrorists...".
It always pissed me off that they would assume that these kids would replicate the insanity and violence that they fled from. Apparently, in the case of these Somalis at least, the people I was disagreeing with have been proven right.
Damn shame, as well as being a major National Security nightmare.

The Sudanese were more than likely Christians from southern Sudan, who were being oppressed by the Arabs from northern Sudan. Not people you'd expect to go Jihad on anybody.

The Somalis, OTOH, are Muslims, with all the ideological baggage that entails.

234 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:13:46pm

re: #232 sattv4u2

Your question is irrelevant and a form of intellectual deceit. That is why I have the conviction not to answer it.

235 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:14:00pm

re: #228 bloodstar

You're missing the point. If american Citizens can be held without access to lawyers or counsel then we have a problem. Who cares if he did it or not. The point stands. declaring someone a Terrorist and then refusing to let them access to the legal system is a terrible precedent.

See KOSH's # 208. If you don't know that is a basic law enforcement tool for the past, oh hundred years or so ,,, LEARN

236 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:16:44pm

re: #235 sattv4u2
What is it, 48 or 72 hours you can be held without access to counsel?

237 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:18:11pm

re: #234 Kenneth

Your question is irrelevant and a form of intellectual deceit. That is why I have the conviction not to answer it.

We're talking about abortion. We're talking about should abortion wshould be legal or not. So asking you if YOU think abortion should be legal or not is IRRELEVENT

OOOkkkaaayyyY!!!

238 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:18:51pm

re: #236 pingjockey

What is it, 48 or 72 hours you can be held without access to counsel?

I beleive it's 48. I also think for a federal case (an internet threat across state lines qualifies 0 it's MUCH longer

239 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:19:34pm

re: #214 buzzsawmonkey

You are really tossing in everything, including the kitchen sink, aren't you?

RICO was concocted about 30 years ago. You may not be aware of it--your poor grasp of history continues to suggest that you are very young--but Prohibition ended 76 years ago. How do you connect these two things? Forty-odd years is kind of a long lag time, wouldn't you say?

Yes, laws can be abused, which is why they should be carefully considered, carefully drafted, and carefully thought out. But the brush you are slathering with is so broad as to be nonsensical.

For starters, "9/11" is a date, not a law. What law are you referring to? What actual abuses have occurred under the laws you are referring to?

Buzzsaw, the point I'm trying to make was the Prohibition helped facilitate the growth of organized crime, and that in response to that, RICO was created to help stamp out coersion and influence from the Mafia in Unions. I am aware of the time lag. :p

The intent of RICO wasn't to try and break up Anti-Abortion Protesters, and yet that's what it's currently being used for.

9/11 certainly is a date, and the law that directly descended from it was the PATRIOT Act.

Meanwhile we had rampant warrant less wiretapping that could not be challenged because of a lack of standing, Lawsuits thrown out because of states secrets and confidentiality (which shouldn't be possible when it is illegal to make illegal acts confidential or secret). And then of course blanket immunity was granted to the telephone industry.

We can agree to disagree, but I think that those are bad laws being passed with negative consequences.

240 lincolntf  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:19:50pm

re: #233 Son of the Black Dog

"Ours" were largely supported by the local mosque, though the program was funded by the Fed. Govt.
Whether or not the kids were Muslim I don't know, but the mosque was their primary local sponsor/advocate. Of course, the "mosque" in question could have been acting as a genuinely charitable institution or it could be of the theologically ambiguous Farrakhan/Black Nationalist variety.
Don't know, never been there.

241 Cygnus  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:21:32pm

re: #192 Dianna

What does that say about poor airline passengers?!

It's gotta be better than the 'complimentary snacks' they serve in coach these days - nasty little cookies and soda. With sandwiches that cost as much as a meal anywhere else and teeny plastic glasses of wine for $6 or so. Bleah.

242 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:21:33pm

re: #235 sattv4u2

See KOSH's # 208. If you don't know that is a basic law enforcement tool for the past, oh hundred years or so ,,, LEARN

Counterpoint. The person in question had not had access to a lawyer or counsel for at least 2 months. that's the point I'm making. Gag orders are one thing. access to counsel is another.

243 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:21:51pm

re: #238 sattv4u2
Don't know a bout federal. IIRC, Britain can lock your ass up for weeks with out access to counsel!

244 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:24:59pm

re: #237 sattv4u2

We're talking about abortion. We're talking about should abortion wshould be legal or not. So asking you if YOU think abortion should be legal or not is IRRELEVENT

OOOkkkaaayyyY!!!

In fact, that was not your question:

So make abortion ILLEGAL

NOW ,, tell me what you do with those 3%!

Your question implied I had asserted a position I did not, and then used the 3% argument to manipulate an answer. That is not an honest question. The 3% are also irrelevant to why abortion is legal in the US.

245 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:25:28pm

re: #242 bloodstar

Counterpoint. The person in question had not had access to a lawyer or counsel for at least 2 months. that's the point I'm making. Gag orders are one thing. access to counsel is another.

And aagin, that is NOT a recent (post 9/11 ,,, post Patriot Act) phenomonon

246 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:28:15pm

re: #244 Kenneth

In fact, that was not your question:

re: #224 sattv4u2

But I noticed the tap dance to NOT answer

I'll ask you a staright out yes or no question. Should abortion be illegal

In fact ,, it WAS !

247 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:28:54pm

re: #244 Kenneth

Your question implied I had asserted a position I did not, and then used the 3% argument to manipulate an answer. That is not an honest question. The 3% are also irrelevant to why abortion is legal in the US.

PLUS, the fact is that abortion is legal, and that is not going to change.

Asking somebody about some pie-in-the-sky wave-your-wand and make your perfect world hypothetical (should we make abortion illegal) doesn't lead anywhere.

248 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:28:59pm

re: #209 sattv4u2

see my 205


(and it's NOT a "weak argument". Do you know any rape victimes that were impregnated? I do. Do you know any minor incest victims that got pregnant? I've met one! Do you know any women whose lives were in jeapordy if they brought took a fetus to term, one that had a one in one hundred chance to mmake it while the mother had a 99% chance to not? Meet my sister!

Yes, I know more than one rape victim but neither of them were impregnated. I also know at least three victims of incest (one is male and was abused by his mother and her 'boyfriends')
I do not know your sister or any woman in a similar situation. But she is one of the reasons that abortion should not be completely illegal.

I have also known women who have had 3 or 4 abortions before they turned 21. I've known women who only had one abortion and grieved for years over that abortion.

I know adopted children and adoptive parents.

We do not need an All or Nothing solution and nobody on this board has suggested such have they?

249 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:29:30pm
250 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:30:07pm

re: #228 bloodstar

You're missing the point. If american Citizens can be held without access to lawyers or counsel then we have a problem. Who cares if he did it or not. The point stands. declaring someone a Terrorist and then refusing to let them access to the legal system is a terrible precedent.

They've always been able to detain for 24-48 hours.

251 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:30:28pm

re: #127 LGoPs

What liberty and freedom did you lose? You must have been on a special double secret list...because I didn't lose any of mine.
It must suck to be you.

I have a friend who's not a citizen of this country, and because the country she's from (Peru) has had issues with a Maoist Insurgency, her telephone conversations were monitored for a period of time in 2002. Mind you, Both her and I were in the United States, and in theory should not have been monitored, however, by Law the PATRIOT act requires anyone who's wiretapped to be notified After the fact.

I have no idea what conversations or were or were not recorded, and while none of the conversations were illegal in nature... some of them were interesting (she was my GF...we'll leave it at that). So right now, for all I know there could be conversations I had recorded and wandering out there for the amusement and tittilation of others.

It's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things but to me, it's the Principle that neither one of us were engaged in anything illegal, nor was there evidence that there could be, but because the country had the Shining Path operating in it, she was automatically a suspect and had her conversations eavesdropped.

Happier?

252 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:31:12pm

re: #250 Eowyn2

They've always been able to detain for 24-48 hours.

longer in federal cases, which this is one of (terroristict threats across state lines)

253 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:31:53pm

re: #246 sattv4u2

Yes, but by that point you lost me.

254 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:32:09pm

re: #251 bloodstar

who's not a citizen of this country

that doesn't butress your argument

AGAIN

255 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:33:06pm

re: #162 NelsFree

Let's not scare Bloodstar off. Not yet, at least. Who's got the popcorn?

Don't worry, I don't scare off easily :) I've got my asbestos suit ready to go in case it gets a little personal.

256 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:33:13pm

re: #253 Kenneth

Yes, but by that point you lost me.

Well ,, now that your found

Should abortion be legal? Yes or no?

Should abortion be ILLEGAL? Yes or no?

257 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:35:14pm

re: #256 sattv4u2

No, you misunderstand. You lost me as a reasonable person to discuss this issue with. The repeated "shouting" of your reframed question does not encourage me to answer you.

258 lincolntf  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:36:33pm

re: #246 sattv4u2

This whole argument is of a piece with the death penalty argument. If I say I support the death penalty, then someone can "logically" say "So, you want horse-thieves ( I guess today they'd be car thieves) hung without trial and black men shot for looking at white women???" because that's the way the death penalty has been carried out before.
And if someone says that they oppose Roe v. Wade, it's easy to say "So you want rapists to force women to bear their children, and you support the death of mothers due to complications?".

It's pointless to discuss either issue unless both parties are
A: dealing with the world as it exists today
and
B: willing to acknowledge that an "absolute answer" that covers every possible situation is impossible in either case.

259 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:36:49pm

re: #224 sattv4u2

But I noticed the tap dance to NOT answer

I'll ask you a staright out yes or no question. Should abortion be illegal

I will ask you a question in answer:
Should alcohol be illegal?
Should cigarettes be illegal?
Should guns be illegal?

All three of the above are harmful when excessive or used against others. All are regulated. All three have age limits.

Is abortion harmful to a 14 yr old whose 15 yr old friend drives her to the clinic because her parents don't know?
Are multiple abortions harmful?

The All or Nothing is NOT the answer.

260 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:37:30pm

re: #250 Eowyn2

They've always been able to detain for 24-48 hours.

Yes. However the case in question was over 2 months.

261 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:38:09pm

re: #257 Kenneth

No, you misunderstand. You lost me as a reasonable person to discuss this issue with. The repeated "shouting" of your reframed question does not encourage me to answer you.

I emphasize a WORD and that constitutes as SHOUTING?

Wow ,,, just,, wow

And perhaps the question was "reframed" due to lack of answer!

On second thought ,, no "perhaps" about it!

262 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:40:02pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

who's not a citizen of this country

that doesn't butress your argument

AGAIN

Neither the PATRIOT Act nor FISA allow for warrantless wiretapping of 2 individuals if both are in the US. Citizenship does not matter.

263 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:40:08pm

re: #260 bloodstar

Yes. However the case in question was over 2 months.

Then you should link the whole arguement from Drudge and you should allow the rest of us to read such without filing through everything.

264 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:40:27pm

re: #260 bloodstar
I don't know what the federal rules are for detaining people. It may predate the Patriot Act. Conveying bomb threats across state lines, or an act of terrorism by electronic means across state lines. Gonna have to look up the federal rules. On its face it would seem crazy to lock up a 16 year old but we don't know what he threatened to do.

265 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:40:35pm

re: #259 Eowyn2

I will ask you a question in answer:
Should alcohol be illegal?
Should cigarettes be illegal?
Should guns be illegal?

All three of the above are harmful when excessive or used against others. All are regulated. All three have age limits.

Is abortion harmful to a 14 yr old whose 15 yr old friend drives her to the clinic because her parents don't know?
Are multiple abortions harmful?

The All or Nothing is NOT the answer.

I've never advocated all or nothing re: abortion. If I have, please show me where!

I would like to see abortion legal but rare, i.e. in the case of rape, incest or mothers health

266 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:42:03pm
267 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:42:08pm

re: #265 sattv4u2

I've never advocated all or nothing re: abortion. If I have, please show me where!

I would like to see abortion legal but rare, i.e. in the case of rape, incest or mothers health

No, you have not advocated that.
But you are demanding that Kenneth answer an "all or nothing" question, when the situation (illegal abortions) does not currently exist, NOR will it exist.

It's not an answerable question for real life.

268 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #265 sattv4u2

I've never advocated all or nothing re: abortion. If I have, please show me where!

I would like to see abortion legal but rare, i.e. in the case of rape, incest or mothers health


I hate to disagree with you Satt but when you give the following:

Should abortion be legal? Yes or no?

Should abortion be ILLEGAL? Yes or no?

Those are All or Nothing questions.

269 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:44:43pm

re: #267 reine.de.tout

No, you have not advocated that.
But you are demanding that Kenneth answer an "all or nothing" question, when the situation (illegal abortions) does not currently exist, NOR will it exist.

It's not an answerable question for real life.

One can have an opinion as to what THEY would prefer re: any law, including an abortion one. I'll bet if I asked you if you would PREFER it to be legal or illegal, you could reasonably answer me. Concisely and difinitevly

270 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:44:49pm

re: #261 sattv4u2

Use of ALLCAPS is generally considered blog shouting. Repeating questions over and over again is also considered rude. I found your first question intellectually dishonest so until you address that, there is no way I will consider any follow-up questions from you.

271 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:45:31pm

re: #270 Kenneth

Use of ALLCAPS is generally considered blog shouting. Repeating questions over and over again is also considered rude. I found your first question intellectually dishonest so until you address that, there is no way I will consider any follow-up questions from you.

and not answering them is considered ,,,???

272 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:45:39pm

re: #264 pingjockey

I don't know what the federal rules are for detaining people. It may predate the Patriot Act. Conveying bomb threats across state lines, or an act of terrorism by electronic means across state lines. Gonna have to look up the federal rules. On its face it would seem crazy to lock up a 16 year old but we don't know what he threatened to do.

How old was the younger beltway killer?
How old were the boys from Columbine?

273 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:46:35pm

re: #272 Eowyn2

How old was the younger beltway killer?
How old were the boys from Columbine?

#1) 16, I beleive

#2) no older than 17 as none were yet seniors

274 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:46:58pm

re: #271 sattv4u2

Appropriate in the circumstance.

275 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:47:59pm

re: #269 sattv4u2

One can have an opinion as to what THEY would prefer re: any law, including an abortion one. I'll bet if I asked you if you would PREFER it to be legal or illegal, you could reasonably answer me. Concisely and difinitevly

No, I could not say yes or no to the question "should abortion be legal or illegal". The question is not answerable.

What exists, what is a fact, is that abortion is legal, and it is not about to become illegal. The best I can do right now is promote and support programs that offer alternatives to abortion. that is eminently doable.

276 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:48:05pm

re: #270 Kenneth

Use of ALLCAPS is generally considered blog shouting. Repeating questions over and over again is also considered rude. I found your first question intellectually dishonest so until you address that, there is no way I will consider any follow-up questions from you.

Okay ,, we'll "play" by your rules. Remind me what was my original question and what was so " intellectually dishonest " about it?
You'll have to excuse me. i'm at work and in the middle of two of the discussions here!

277 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:48:06pm

re: #272 Eowyn2
Spot on!

278 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:48:35pm

re: #262 bloodstar

Neither the PATRIOT Act nor FISA allow for warrantless wiretapping of 2 individuals if both are in the US. Citizenship does not matter.

So you got a letter stating that YOUR phone was tapped?

279 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:49:16pm

re: #276 sattv4u2

I explained that to you thoroughly. A few other people expanded on that explanation. Go back and reread the posts.

280 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:49:58pm
281 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:49:59pm

re: #273 sattv4u2

Yeah, somewhere in there. The idea that a 16 yr old cannot be a threat is ludicrous. Billy the Kid was like 13 when he shot his mother's pimp.

282 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:51:48pm
283 Eowyn2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:51:59pm

i have to work

284 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:53:08pm

re: #275 reine.de.tout

No, I could not say yes or no to the question "should abortion be legal or illegal". The question is not answerable.

What exists, what is a fact, is that abortion is legal, and it is not about to become illegal. The best I can do right now is promote and support programs that offer alternatives to abortion. that is eminently doable.

IF you beleive that it should be banned, you COULD work for politicians of the like mind. Work for organizations of the like mind. Donate time and money to both.

Times change, laws change. 50 years ago it would have been UNTHINKABLE that it would be legal for a man/ man or woman/ woman to marry. But eher we are with, what ,,, 8 states where it is?

285 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:53:26pm

re: #282 buzzsawmonkey

That's only because he had been denied entry into the local junior college. Education will solve everything.

/

and midnight basketball!

286 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:53:56pm

re: #32 bloodstar

Eh... 20 people?

Call me a head in the sand, but somehow I think we have much more extreme issues with Neo-Nazis, Ecoterrorists, and Survivalists than we will with these clowns. Just keep an eye on them. I don't think we're going to have to declare a state of emergency over this.

Remember, bad laws are created when people get emotional and over react (cref: 9/11 and the PATRIOT Act as one example).

BS ... idiot ...

287 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:54:46pm

re: #249 buzzsawmonkey

If anti-abortion protesters behave like racketeers, what is the problem with their being treated like racketeers?

For that matter, the "warrantless wiretapping" you are referring to which occurred under the Patriot Act was tapping into calls which were leaving the country. It was not a matter of randomly or routinely tapping domestic communications without a warrant.

I have no idea what you are referring to in the rest of your wiretapping paragraph; not only are the sentences very murky but you are not referring to any specific acts.

I suppose because the Anti-abortion protesters were not tried under the criminal provisions but instead tried under the civil provisions, which I see were later overturned by the Supreme Court... Ummm... whoops... Learn new things every day! :)

Though as a totally tangential note, I see a police department was Declared a Racketeering operation...

In June 1984, the Key West Police Department in Monroe County, Florida was declared a criminal enterprise under the Federal RICO statutes after a lengthy United States Department of Justice investigation. Several high-ranking officers of the department, including Deputy Police Chief Raymond Cassamayor, were arrested on federal charges of running a protection racket for illegal cocaine smugglers.At trial, a witness testified he routinely delivered bags of cocaine to the Deputy Chief's office at City Hall.
288 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:56:19pm
289 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:56:52pm

re: #278 Eowyn2

So you got a letter stating that YOUR phone was tapped?

She did. Scared the living daylights out of her. and it wasn't a letter, they came to her door.

290 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:59:30pm

re: #279 Kenneth

I explained that to you thoroughly. A few other people expanded on that explanation. Go back and reread the posts.

Okay ,, here's the 1st post of mine on the subject that you weighed in on

So those 3% of rape, incest victims and endagered mothers lives should be thrwon in jail if they decide to illegally abort? Thats the country you want?

Don't get me wrong. I am pro-life, but I WOULD make exceptions for the cases I cited

of whose genises was in response to this (not mine) at #98

There are plenty of laws that are created out of good intention but do harm . Can't just look at a laws intent. Legalized abortion for example. It "helps" women and kills babies.

SO ,,, where am I being "intellectually dishonest "?

291 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:00:11pm

re: #288 buzzsawmonkey

Why do you indulge in Random Capitalization of words in mid-sentence?

Because I'm rushing and spell checker doesn't catch those? Trust me, I'd love to have an add-on from Firefox that did that... and since I'm pausing and checking things on the Interwebs as I type, trying to verify information or... find out where I was mistaken, I tend to capitalize when I start typing, horrible habit. sorry, I'll try to slow down and pay more attention.

292 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:00:44pm

re: #288 buzzsawmonkey

Why do you indulge in Random Capitalization of words in mid-sentence?

truth be told,,, I do that also ,,, for emphasis. If you and I were "talking" face to face, your voice would have an inflection on a word for emphasis!

293 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:01:06pm

re: #284 sattv4u2

IF you beleive that it should be banned, you COULD work for politicians of the like mind. Work for organizations of the like mind. Donate time and money to both.

Times change, laws change. 50 years ago it would have been UNTHINKABLE that it would be legal for a man/ man or woman/ woman to marry. But eher we are with, what ,,, 8 states where it is?

satt - again, it is just not at all likely abortion will be made illegal.
And I would prefer to spend my energy and resources where a real difference can be made.

294 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:02:37pm

re: #293 reine.de.tout

satt - again, it is just not at all likely abortion will be made illegal.
And I would prefer to spend my energy and resources where a real difference can be made.

Not to belabor it, but again 50 years ago it was NOT at all likely that anyone thought same sex marriage would be legal

295 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:03:19pm
296 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:03:56pm
297 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:05:38pm

re: #294 sattv4u2

Not to belabor it, but again 50 years ago it was NOT at all likely that anyone thought same sex marriage would be legal

Correct.
And so . . . what?
We were talking about abortion, and the state of things as they exist now, today. And today, right now, as things exist at this moment, it is extremely unlikely abortion will be made illegal. I do not care to spend my energy and resources on a losing proposition, when I can spend them on something that will have an actual positive effect.

298 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:05:44pm

Just opened my snail mail ... hahaha ... a long letter from Al Gore ... wanting money ... I believe I would be in big trouble if I wrote him back and told him where he can put his letter ...

Hey! ... if I send the small gift of $50 I can take part in an "exclusive" interactive conference call with DSCC Chair Senator Robert Menendez ... I BELIEVE I WILL PASS ...

299 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:06:39pm

re: #298 JacksonTn

Just opened my snail mail ... hahaha ... a long letter from Al Gore ... wanting money ... I believe I would be in big trouble if I wrote him back and told him where he can put his letter ...

Hey! ... if I send the small gift of $50 I can take part in an "exclusive" interactive conference call with DSCC Chair Senator Robert Menendez ... I BELIEVE I WILL PASS ...

You know what you could do - if they included a postage-paid envelope, send it back to them empty.

300 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:07:12pm

re: #296 buzzsawmonkey

You can make that 15 years ago without risking inaccuracy.

Yes , I probabaly could have, but some Lizard WAY smartre than me would have pulled up some link from 17 years ago with the headline

SAME SEX MARRIAGE CERTAIN WITHIN 20 YEARS

301 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:08:08pm

re: #299 reine.de.tout

You know what you could do - if they included a postage-paid envelope, send it back to them empty.

Reine! ... yes I played all those put pennies in the envelopes as donations and send them back during the primaries ... again ... I am not mature! ... LOL ...

302 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:09:31pm

re: #299 reine.de.tout

You know what you could do - if they included a postage-paid envelope, send it back to them empty.

Better than empty, put in some other junk mail that you got!

303 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:10:00pm

re: #299 reine.de.tout

You know what you could do - if they included a postage-paid envelope, send it back to them empty.

Reine ... oh and this is what is on the front of the envelope ...

DSCC - COMMITTED TO ELECTING A FILIBUSTER-PROOF MAJORITY ...

/please vote them out ...

304 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:11:38pm

re: #174 NelsFree

There will never be a time when 100% agree on this issue, either way. I too am anti-abortion. It is my understanding that 50 million babies were not born because of abortion since Roe V. Wade. The current US population is 300 million; what an incredible difference those lives could have made. We'll never know.

Maybe it kept another Gandhi from being born. And maybe it kept another Hitler from being born. And maybe both, or neither.

Conjectural speculation is less than useless in such hypothetical matters.

305 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:23:00pm

re: #220 Kenneth

Actually, pro-choice people need to make an honest and convincing argument for the necessity of legal abortion as a means of birth control in the 97% of cases when neither rape, nor incest nor medical necessity is an issue. To hide behind that 3% is a moral and intellectual fraud.

The honest and convincing argument is found in the annals of pre-Roe US history; morgues and ERs being deluged by hemorrhaged and poisoned and injured and septic and bled-out women who, unable to obtain legal abortions, sought out back-alley butchers, drank noxious homemade concoctions, threw themselves down flights of stairs, had friends punch them in their stomachs, or perforated themselves with coathangars or knitting needles.

Abortion is an excruciatingly agonizing choice for most women to make, but having made it, a significant percentage of them will seek it with the selfsame desperation displayed by a trapped animal that chews off a par in order to escape. They will do ANYTHING to end their pregnancies. Including risking permanent maiming or death. Which is exactly what used to happen in lots of cases.

306 gregb  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:27:21pm

Thank goodness that Orange County has finally given up it's reign as the largest hotbed of Islamic fanaticism--though I don't really know if there's any less here, just more there.

307 right_wing2  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:37:03pm

It's all because America is a mean, hateful country. Just ask Mrs. Obamessiah

//

308 hellosnackbar  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:39:39pm

I don't know! these young Mohammedans seem to blow up so quickly these days!

309 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:45:35pm

re: #302 sattv4u2

Better than empty, put in some other junk mail that you got!

OOOH!
Much better.

310 Render  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 3:03:33pm

That foreign fighters thing in Somalia usually doesn't work out so well.

Anybody wanna claim this body?

[Link: osint.internet-haganah.com...]

===

The M-113 is not now and never has been a "tank." It is an Armored Personnel Carrier, (and not a particularly good one at that). It's "armor" can be penetrated by 7.62mm AP rounds (if fired from close enough). As a fully tracked vehicle, it's highly inefficient in Americas urban environments, and its purchase is highly questionable given that there are dozens of wheeled armored vehicles (the Cadillac-Gage V150 for starters) already available and designed for heavy law enforcement type work.

The M-2HB heavy machine gun is way too big for any kind of law enforcement work in the US, unless you're planning on a lot of collateral damage. Again, there are dozens of "civilian" pattern .50cal rifles (the well-proven M-82A1 Barrett for example) already on the market and available for law enforcement work that do the same job, cheaper.

Sheriff Lott needs his head examined, closely.

LIGHT
BRIGADE,
R

311 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 4:24:08pm

re: #305 Salamantis

That is a strongly emotional portrayal, but it is not an argument, and it has nothing to do with the supreme Court ruling which legalized abortion.

312 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 4:31:19pm

re: #290 sattv4u2

Okay ,, here's the 1st post of mine on the subject that you weighed in on

So those 3% of rape, incest victims and endagered mothers lives should be thrwon in jail if they decide to illegally abort? Thats the country you want?

Don't get me wrong. I am pro-life, but I WOULD make exceptions for the cases I cited

of whose genises was in response to this (not mine) at #98

There are plenty of laws that are created out of good intention but do harm . Can't just look at a laws intent. Legalized abortion for example. It "helps" women and kills babies.

SO ,,, where am I being "intellectually dishonest "?

The intellectual dishonesty is in using the 3% argument to argue the necessity of abortion. And to use it as a false dichotomy in posing your question to me.

The only reason abortion is legal is because the courts ruled that an unborn child is not a legal person and therefore has no rights. Period. That's it. It's not about protecting a woman's life, or rape or incest or birth defects. It's because fetus has no rights. So it's legal to kill them.

313 iceman1960  Mon, Jul 13, 2009 4:48:15pm

Nothing's shocking anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if the antichrist came from Minnesota. I mean they gave us Al Franken for crying out loud. Al Frikken Franken!

314 p-dex  Wed, Jul 15, 2009 8:41:32am

Too bad those Somali jihadists felt they had to leave. Minnesotans could have voted one of those guys to the Senate. Ah, well...we live and learn.


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