Obama’s Science Czar and ‘Ecoscience’ - Updates

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Politics • Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 1:35 pm PDT • Views: 357

Zombie has an update for that post about “science czar” John Holdren and the book he co-authored with Paul and Anne Ehrlich in 1977.

When I originally wrote and published this essay on July 10, I said:

“Unfortunately, as far as I’ve been able to discover, Holdren has never disavowed the views he held in the 1970s and spelled out in Ecoscience and other books.”

However, that is no longer entirely true. On July 15, both the White House and John Holdren’s office issued statements on this controversy after prodding from reporters at both the Washington Times and the Catholic News Agency. According to this article by Amanda Carpenter in the Washington Times, Holdren and his co-authors have now distanced themselves from the words published in Ecoscience 32 years ago. From the article:

When asked whether Mr. Holdren’s thoughts on population control have changed over the years, his staff gave The Washington Times a statement that said, “This material is from a three-decade-old, three-author college textbook. Dr. Holdren addressed this issue during his confirmation when he said he does not believe that determining optimal population is a proper role of government. Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization.”

The White House also passed along a statement from the Ehrlichs that said, in part, “anybody who actually wants to know what we and/or Professor Holdren believe and recommend about these matters would presumably read some of the dozens of publications that we and he separately have produced in more recent times, rather than going back a third of a century to find some formulations in an encyclopedic textbook where description can be misrepresented as endorsement.”
Zombie asks:

Do you think these two articles count as the renunciation and disavowal I requested?

I think they do — and the statements released by the White House staff track with a comment I made at the end of the previous thread, speaking about Holdren’s testimony at his confirmation hearing:

When he says, “I no longer think it’s productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum population of the United States,” that does bear on the issue, since the idea of “optimum population” was behind Ecoscience’s draconian recommendations. When he says he thinks it’s “no longer productive,” that would very likely be his answer if asked directly about the book, too. It’s an admission that he has changed his opinions on those issues — probably as much admission as you’ll ever get from a bureaucratic scientist.

As disturbing as the ideas in Ecoscience may seem, thinking through extreme situations and visualizing consequences and possible solutions is part of what science is about. Now that Holdren has addressed the book specifically, and made it clear that, 32 years later, he doesn’t endorse or recommend the ideas in it, there’s not much more to say.

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423 comments

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1 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:37:11pm

flip flop much?

2 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:37:24pm

science!

3 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:38:58pm
As disturbing as the ideas in Ecoscience may seem, thinking through extreme situations and visualizing consequences and possible solutions is part of what science is about.

Um... hmm. I don't buy it. There was a political agenda driving this from the very beginning; it wasn't just good, solid science.

4 Ben Hur  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:39:16pm
When asked whether Mr. Holdren’s thoughts on population control have changed over the years, his staff gave The Washington Times a statement that said, “This material is from a three-decade-old, three-author college textbook. Dr. Holdren addressed this issue during his confirmation.....

Funny.

I'm sensing a pattern.

5 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:39:51pm
When he says, “I no longer think it’s productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum population of the United States,”

That doesn't sound much like a "renunciation" to me.

6 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:39:58pm
there’s not much more to say.

I wonder how many comments this thread will get then. And half the comments on the last thread were on this topic too. We sure know how to say "not much" in the most long-winded way.

7 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:40:03pm

Holdren may no longer hold to those ideas, but his willingness to embrace draconian solutions to perceived problems still troubles me a bit. That is what I do not know if he has renounced or not.

8 J.S.  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:40:10pm

It's called "politics as usual." Only now it's "We're DoOmed, DoOmed, I tells ya!" The Climate it's ... it's Changing! !

9 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:40:25pm

re: #5 Occasional Reader

That doesn't sound much like a "renunciation" to me.

But this definitely is:

Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization.

10 Ben Hur  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:40:29pm

There's a lot of ""I didn't really mean in because now I want to be confirmed" going around.

And where is "Czar" in the Consitution, anyway?

11 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:41:09pm

re: #6 wrenchwench

I wonder how many comments this thread will get then. And half the comments on the last thread were on this topic too. We sure know how to say "not much" in the most long-winded way.

I know. Heh. As soon as I wrote that, I thought, "Wanna bet?"

12 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:41:40pm

Thanks for the link, Charles, even though I realize that you yourself aren't particularly incensed by the Ecoscience statements. I'm trying to be even-handed and let Holdren and the Ehrlichs have their say

I would like to re-post an analogy, however, that I post in the previous thread:

Imagine this example. I write an essay which says,

"Babies crying in public are a problem. The noise bothers people. There are several ways we can address this problem:

a. We can give the babies some milk; maybe that will calm them down.
b. But if it doesn't calm them down, maybe we can threaten their parents with a lawsuit for disturbing the peace.
c. And if that doesn't work, the possibility exists that we could put muzzles on the babies.
d. Another way to solve the problem is to kill all the babies.

I certainly hope this problem can be solved before it gets out of hand."

Now, in that example, I didn't advocate killing babies, but by describing the option fairly neutrally, without any hint of condemnation or moral outrage, there remains the sense that I'm "OK with it," whether or not I overtly "advocate it."

And what if I added the following sentence:

"Screaming babies are a threat to civilization and they're driving everyone crazy; we must solve this problem at all costs, and it looks like the milder solutions just aren't working."

That's basically what Holdren did in his book. He never baldly and brazenly advocated for compulsory population control, but he essentially made the same roundabout argument I just did in my example: He dispassionately discusses all the options, then points out that the less extreme options probably won't work. That's the thrust of the whole book.

13 coquimbojoe  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:42:01pm

Scienticians must be flexible when new sets of facts come along, or senate hearings.

I don't see this excusing him. We would rightly be against confirming someone with a Nazi past, or anything else like that. Eugenics is disgusting and those who have advocated it shouldn't be in government.

14 Kragar  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:42:11pm

I have no doubt he seriously considered how these ideas sounded and played to the public when he issued his "renunciation". Whether he actually changed his mind as opposed to just changing his gameplan remains on the table. I still think he is a man with a very clear political agenda who hides behind shoddy science as a cover.

15 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:42:24pm

re: #10 Ben Hur

There's a lot of ""I didn't really mean in because now I want to be confirmed" going around.

And where is "Czar" in the Consitution, anyway?

The section on Czars is in the penumbra.

16 captdiggs  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:42:42pm

Holden was coached on his "new" stance.
It's as believable as any other reversal coming from this administration.
Seriously, what would anyone expect him to say, now, as a political appointee.
There was no way in hell, that Obama was going to let him say he still thought his ideas in the book are valid.

17 coquimbojoe  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:42:46pm

re: #5 Occasional Reader

That doesn't sound much like a "renunciation" to me.

Not 'productive' for whom? Its damn cynical if you ask my opinion.

18 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:42:53pm

re: #9 Charles

But this definitely is:

Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization.

Okay, I guess he was only kidding?

19 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:43:11pm

re: #9 Charles

Well, even if he were, he'd be a fool to admit it.

20 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:44:47pm

When it comes time for my Senate confirmation hearings, I plan to firmly deny I ever had any unhealthy fixation on Adriana Lima. Those are just rumors being spread by Rush Limbaugh and the right-wing noise machine.

21 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:45:19pm
22 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:45:20pm

re: #18 Occasional Reader

Okay, I guess he was only kidding?

The whole book was "taken out of context!"
*I just love that excuse

23 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:45:43pm

re: #20 Occasional Reader

When it comes time for my Senate confirmation hearings, I plan to firmly deny I ever had any unhealthy fixation on Adriana Lima. Those are just rumors being spread by Rush Limbaugh and the right-wing noise machine.

what if they introduce the restraining order as evidence?

24 coquimbojoe  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:45:53pm

Shouldn't his association with the Ehrlichs be enough to disqualify him? Have they ever been right about anything?

25 J.S.  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:46:16pm

re: #18 Occasional Reader

The thing is this -- it was all based on doomsday scenarios -- "Watch Out! The population is exploding, exploding, I telll you, and, and, it's gonna outstrip our resources! something's gotta be done, and fast! Fast, or ELSE!" (ditto now with "Climate Change.")

26 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:46:20pm

re: #12 zombie

Zombie, you might be interested in reading through this which refers to a paper under the sole authorship of Holdren:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Also see this excerpt that I typed out:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

27 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:46:27pm

re: #9 Charles

Yes, but that disavowal on Holdren's behalf was made by a staff member, and only addresses the sterilization issue. The other disavowal was made on his behald by Paul Ehrlich, and also is half-measures.

I'll back down when Holdren himself says that he no longer supports conpulsory population control in any form.

So far, he hasn't done that.

Meanwhile, I am using WorldCat and Nexis to follow Ehrlich's suggestion that we look at Holdren's and Ehrlich's more recent statements if we want to know what they "really believe." He may regret making that public challenge.

28 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:46:33pm

re: #23 _RememberTonyC

what if they introduce the restraining order as evidence?

Hide it with zero's bc.
/

29 coquimbojoe  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:46:37pm

re: #22 VegasRick

The whole book was "taken out of context!"
*I just love that excuse

A close second is the 'I misspoke' excuse.

30 Kragar  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:46:49pm

re: #18 Occasional Reader

Okay, I guess he was only kidding?

Man, you publish one lousy book with your name on it proposing forced abortions and sterilizations of undesirables as being necessary and all of sudden, you're the bad guy. Sheesh.

/

31 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:47:05pm

re: #23 _RememberTonyC

what if they introduce the restraining order as evidence?

Stop being so divisive!

/

32 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:47:29pm
33 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:47:42pm

re: #29 coquimbojoe

A close second is the 'I misspoke' excuse.

Yep. I did like Clemens "he must be misremembering"!

34 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:47:50pm
Now that Holdren has addressed the book specifically, and made it clear that, 32 years later, he doesn’t endorse or recommend the ideas in it, there’s not much more to say.

I generally agree; see my longish comment towards the bottom of the previous thread.

If we're going to criticize Holdern, a more profitable line of inquiry is to see if he has the same long association with failed ideas which were promoted as scientific as his coauthors, the Ehrlichs, do. It is more than a bit disturbing to have someone as "science czar" who continues to happily associate with those who have been so wrong, so many times, for so long. If his own record shows a similar history of favoring ideology over reality and of hammering facts into misshapen holes with the hammer of science, there is certainly room to question whether he is capable of giving thoughtful, reasonable advice on science or any other topic.

Note, too, that there isn't much that can be done about it, even if he turns out to be Chicken Little; his confirmation hearings are long since past, and he sailed through them virtually unopposed.

35 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:48:08pm

Funny how nominees suddenly have a change of heart when they have to answer for their past statements publicly. Sorry, I do not trust this person to have any influence over science policy.

36 solicitr  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:48:51pm

Look, the fact that Holdren once advanced those opinions (and was a protege of Paul frickin' Ehrlich, fer crissake!) is nonetheless a basis for suspecting that Holdren might just have a penchant for doomsday alarmism with a totalitarian streak. Now, why would that be relevant today, hmmm?

37 Ben Hur  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:49:11pm

So let me get this straight.

Cartman DIDN'T help Jimmy come up with the Gayfish joke?!?!

38 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:49:38pm

re: #36 solicitr

Look, the fact that Holdren once advanced those opinions (and was a protege of Paul frickin' Ehrlich, fer crissake!) is nonetheless a basis for suspecting that Holdren might just have a penchant for doomsday alarmism with a totalitarian streak. Now, why would that be relevant today, hmmm?

Well, we are all DOOMED!
/

39 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:49:53pm

re: #9 Charles

Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization.

Never? Then which of the tow authors of that 30+year old book advocated it back then? And if Holdren did not endorse that idea then, why was he a co-author of the book?

It one thing to say he long since abandoned & denounced those ideas, but it's quite another thing to say he never advocated the things he wrote a book about.

There's an odor of mendacity about Holdren.

40 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:50:09pm

re: #35 doppelganglander

Funny how nominees suddenly have a change of heart when they have to answer for their past statements publicly. Sorry, I do not trust this person to have any influence over science policy.

Sunlight has that effect.

41 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:50:10pm

re: #19 Dianna

Well, even if he were, he'd be a fool to admit it.

Extremely foolish as forced sterilization is considered a crime against humanity. It has also been ruled on by the SCOTUS in Skinner v. Oklahoma as a "cruel or unusual" punishment for a crime. It is also considered part of eugenics which, of course, has very sinister overtones as it was used in the Third Reich.

42 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:50:16pm

A longtime Berkeley professor.
A liberal.
A (D).

/How many strikes does he get? ;)

43 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:50:44pm

I also recommend that everyone read this article by Jonathan Adler in the National Review from earlier this year. It has some pretty disturbing info about Holdren's positions over the years.

44 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:51:03pm

re: #20 Occasional Reader

If you ask me, you have a healthy, red-blooded fixation about Adriana Lima.

45 albusteve  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:51:13pm

another very impressive bunch of work...nice snag and pursuit Zombie

46 researchok  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:51:20pm

Zombie did a great job.

Further down his post he noted Holdren's admiration of Singapore's 'draconian' population control programs as well as the restriction of loans for school in certain instances (too many children).

Holdren still has plenty to answer for.

47 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:51:41pm

re: #26 Gus 802

Zombie, you might be interested in reading through this which refers to a paper under the sole authorship of Holdren:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Also see this excerpt that I typed out:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Will do.

48 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:52:05pm
49 Ms. MacIceweasel  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:52:51pm

At last.

This won't stop the snowball though.

50 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:53:50pm
As disturbing as the ideas in Ecoscience may seem, thinking through extreme situations and visualizing consequences and possible solutions is part of what science is about.

Agreed.

51 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:54:21pm

Maybe Holdren will forget how to speak English like Sammy Sosa did when he went before Congress...

52 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:54:26pm

re: #49 iceweasel

At last.

This won't stop the snowjob ball though.

53 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:55:45pm

re: #5 Occasional Reader

That doesn't sound much like a "renunciation" to me.

LOOK! SHINY THINGS!

/

54 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:55:54pm

re: #51 Fenway_Nation

Maybe Holdren will forget how to speak English like Sammy Sosa did when he went before Congress...

I think Holdren has cork in his head.
/

55 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:56:15pm

re: #52 VegasRick

snowjobball?

Back to bukkake already?

/

56 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:56:35pm

re: #10 Ben Hur

There's a lot of ""I didn't really mean in because now I want to be confirmed" going around.

And where is "Czar" in the Consitution, anyway?

I was going to post the same thing. +100
dings

57 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:56:39pm

re: #3 Occasional Reader

As disturbing as the ideas in Ecoscience may seem, thinking through extreme situations and visualizing consequences and possible solutions is part of what science is about.

Um... hmm. I don't buy it. There was a political agenda driving this from the very beginning; it wasn't just good, solid science.

It'll suffice for me. Herman Kahn's book ``Thinking about the unthinkable'' didn't recommend strategic nuclear warfare. It just said, suppose, somehow or other, you got into one, or were about to get into one. Would you want to be winging it, or would it be better to have thought through some of the things that might come up and what would be the best way to contain or limit the damage?

Questions of this nature always have a political side, and since they take for their premise some drastically bad and grim situations, this legitimately opens the door to consideration of drastic measures to cope with the situation. Just today, in an editorial in the Wall Street Journal, Alexander Hamilton was quoted to the effect that the executive (president) must have very wide discretion in coping with unforseeable emergencies. The editorial gave historical examples of presidents doing what they thought necessary, including FDR who in 1940 went ahead and wiretapped Nazi spies without a warrant, notwithstanding a 1937 ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court forbidding it.

Situations seen ahead of the event as purely hypothetical sometimes materialize. Population control, in today's setting, would be an absurd and outrageous invasion upon the rights of the people. But what if---what if the world were in the grip of a consuming and persistent famine? Asteroid strikes, the advent of naturally occurring or maliciously invented plant pathogens that savaged production of some or many staple crops, or other causes, could put us in a bind.

58 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:56:43pm

From 7-3-08:

Last July 3, as an advisor to the Obama campaign, Holdren appeared on the radical program "Democracy Now!" hosted by Amy Goodman. Goodman asked him about comments made by his friend Dr. James Hansen (see above). Specifically, Hansen said, "large energy companies are guilty of crimes against humanity, if they continue to dispute what is understood scientifically and to fund contrarians, and if they push us past tipping points that end up destroying many species on the planet and having a huge impact on humanity itself." Goodman asked Holdren if he agreed "the CEOs of large energy companies are guilty of, should be tried for crimes against humanity?"

Holdren replied: "I couldn't really say. I'm not qualified to assess what the heads of oil companies, past or present, have done in this domain. My understanding is that Exxon, in particular, did fund a variety of small think tanks to generate what amounts to propaganda against understanding of what climate change was doing, the human role in causing it. Whether that sort of activity really constitutes crimes against humanity is something for people more embedded in the legal system than I to judge." He went on to say heads of oil companies now were more "enlightened" on carbon emissions, so "I guess I would find the statement that all oil company CEOs, past and present, are guilty of crimes against humanity is maybe a little bit over the top." (Emphasis added.)

In other words, he hedged his bets, pleaded that he was not a legal scholar, but still held out that at least some of the CEOs may well be guilty of crimes against humanity. His reply to whether American citizens should be tried for a capital offense because they exercised their First Amendment rights to disagree with him was a firm maybe.

SNIP

The link to the Democracy Now! article is in the article. This is another link to it.

59 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:56:48pm
As disturbing as the ideas in Ecoscience may seem, thinking through extreme situations and visualizing consequences and possible solutions is part of what science is about.

Yes, but such solutions should never be as draconian as those presented in Ecoscience. Desperate times may call for desperate measures, but the times, then and now, are not desperate, and as such, do not require desperate measures.

60 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:56:50pm

re: #55 OldLineTexan

snowjobball?

Back to bukkake already?

/

OH NOES!

61 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:58:42pm

re: #58 MandyManners

The full name of that program is "Democracy Now, Dictatorship Later"

62 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:58:45pm
As disturbing as the ideas in Ecoscience may seem, thinking through extreme situations and visualizing consequences and possible solutions is part of what science is about.

On the contrary, considering the full range of possible outcomes and then setting aside emotion and bias to determine the most likely outcome is what science is about. The whole premise of The Population Bomb was to assert an alarmist position. The weak "science" and poor scholarship that went into the book were designed to fit the predetermined objective.

It was not science, but political advocacy dressed up as science.

63 albusteve  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:59:21pm

re: #58 MandyManners

therefore Creationists are guilty of crimes against humanity, and the Green Cheese Mooners, etc etc

64 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:00:22pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker

Situations seen ahead of the event as purely hypothetical sometimes materialize. Population control, in today's setting, would be an absurd and outrageous invasion upon the rights of the people. But what if---what if the world were in the grip of a consuming and persistent famine?

The thing is, for people of Holdren's ilk, it's like the Monty Python "spam" routine; every item on the menu is "massively ramped-up governmental control over peoples' lives". So you'll have to forgive me if I have trouble seeing this just some scientific "what if?" spitballin'.

65 albusteve  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:00:28pm

re: #61 OldLineTexan

The full name of that program is "Democracy Now, Dictatorship Later"

Amy Goodman is a raving lunatic...so is her brother

66 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:01:20pm

Is AWG the new McCarthyism? Pianobuff posted this link this morning.

DISCUSSIONS about global warming are marked by an increasing desire to stamp out "impure" thinking, to the point of questioning the value of democratic debate. But shutting down discussion simply means the disappearance of reason from public policy...

After the narrow passage of the Waxman-Markey climate change bill in the US House of Representatives, Krugman said that there was no justification for a vote against it. He called virtually all of the members who voted against it "climate deniers" who were committing "treason against the planet"...

There is clearly a trend. The climate threat is so great -- and democracies are doing so little about it -- that people conclude that maybe democracy is part of the problem, and that perhaps people ought not be allowed to express heterodox opinions on such an important topic.

This is scary, although not without historical precedent. Much of the American McCarthyism of the 1940s and 50s was driven by the same burning faith in the righteousness of the mission: a faith that saw fundamental rights abrogated. We would be well served to go down a different path...

Even if every Kyoto-obligated country passed its own, duplicate Waxman-Markey bills -- which is implausible and would incur significantly higher costs -- the global reduction would amount to just 0.22C by the end of this century. The reduction in global temperature would not be measurable in 100 years, yet the cost would be significant and payable now.

67 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:01:21pm

re: #64 Occasional Reader

The thing is, for people of Holdren's ilk, it's like the Monty Python "spam" routine; every item on the menu is "massively ramped-up governmental control over peoples' lives". So you'll have to forgive me if I have trouble seeing this just some scientific "what if?" spitballin'.

No matter the crisis, their solution is always the same.

68 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:02:29pm

re: #58 MandyManners

Democracy Now! ...now there's a sober scientific program. Nice to see Dr. Holdren discussing serious scientific issues with his peers.

69 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:02:43pm

re: #58 MandyManners

So, funding research that comes to a different conclusion than the officially sanctioned holy writ of the climate alarmists now qualifies for the same treatment the Nazis got at Nuremberg? Nice to see the free spirit of scientific inquiry is alive and well.

70 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:02:43pm

So, Soylent Green is not people after all.

71 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:02:57pm

So the Bastards slipped HR1388 by the American people while
the country morned over M. Jackson and watched a confirmation hearing!!
20.3 Million to imigrate GAZA REFUGES to the U.S.???
This will end badly!!

72 yochanan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:03:52pm

[Link: www.abc15.com...]

and social security will go bankrupt that much sooner. DUH

73 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:03:59pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

As disturbing as the ideas in Ecoscience may seem, thinking through extreme situations and visualizing consequences and possible solutions is part of what science is about.

Agreed.

True. However, another part of doing science is mastery of the tools it provides, and an ability to winnow out bullshit. The nightmarish vision of the future predicted by Ecoscience - a bizarre combination of Blade Runner, Soylent Green and Nightmare on Elm Street combined - is based on the most simplistic of models - a simple linear extrapolation of instantaneous trends. Anyone trained in science would question the validity of such a model in a world in which linear models almost never occur, would have subjected their assumptions to at least cursory scrutiny, and would have found them to be so overly simplistic that they never would have believed the predictions made by such a model to begin with. It is sloppy, sophomoric science that would be questioned even by undergraduate students, let alone practicing scientists.

If Ecoscience is an example of Holdren's scientific abilities, it does not bode well for the quality of the advice he will offer. It indicates that he is far too willing to allow ideology to drive his thinking rather than the evidence, hypothesis and experimental results that science demands as proof.

74 J.S.  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:04:28pm

re: #64 Occasional Reader

Forbes publishing an interesting article on Holdren...here.

75 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:04:55pm

I'm not totally excusing Holdren here, by the way -- he does seem inclined to alarmism. But I don't think he's a believer in eugenics, and I don't think he's a sekrit advocate for forced abortions.

76 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:05:38pm

re: #2 redc1c4

I'm blinded! icna't tpye nomur.

I can see where folks sit around thinking up worst-case scenarios. However, it usually involves pizza and booze.

77 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:06:16pm

re: #75 Charles

I'm not totally excusing Holdren here, by the way -- he does seem inclined to alarmism. But I don't think he's a believer in eugenics, and I don't think he's a sekrit advocate for forced abortions.

I would also like to point out the difference between my original essay and many of the other blogs and news sites that have picked up the story: I do try to give FULL context for every quote in the book, and I also let the authors have their say in response, and reprint as much of their statements as I could find. In all cases, I just try to present the evidence and let the reader decide. Many other sites, unfortunately, do not.

That's the main reason why my essay has become so widely cited -- because I just lay it all out, without hiding anything, and let the facts speak for themselves. This allows people on all sides of the discussion to link to it without fear, because the page-scans cans be trusted. And I leave the door open for opposing opinions, so that you, for example, can link to the essay and state your side of the argument (i.e. that the disavowals are sufficient), while other people can link to the same essay and have different conclusions.

This is the way public discourse should be: with full disclosure, and allowing both sides to speak. I see so much obfuscation and shouting down, it's depressing.

78 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:06:21pm

The author of No. 66: Holdren reacts to correction the way a rattlesnake reacts to sudden movement: with velocity and venom. As long ago as the early 1970s, he and Paul Ehrlich engaged in a campaign to silence fellow radical Barry Commoner, a onetime fringe presidential candidate, because the latter viewed technology as more damaging than overpopulation. More recently, he co-authored a scathing, 11-page attack against Bjorn Lomborg for having the temerity to question Green-Left orthodoxy. Yet that pales in comparison to his view of some global warming "deniers."

79 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:06:42pm

If you can stand Glen Beck, Mark Hemingway of National Review will be on the show to discuss Holdren. It's on right now on the east coast.

80 american sabra  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:06:54pm
The White House also passed along a statement from the Ehrlichs that said, in part, “anybody who actually wants to know what we and/or Professor Holdren believe and recommend about these matters would presumably read some of the dozens of publications that we and he separately have produced in more recent times, rather than going back a third of a century to find some formulations in an encyclopedic textbook where description can be misrepresented as endorsement.”

That's the clencher for me.

Some people will, however, refuse to believe. It's the same as the Obama birth certificate. Once something has been put out there, there is no acceptable retraction no matter what truths subsequently appear.

81 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:06:56pm

re: #12 zombie

I was just thinking that, given the covers of Time over the past 40 years, we've lurched from crisis to crisis.

I think of all this as an example of our addiction to alarmism.

82 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:06:58pm

re: #76 calcajun

re: #2 redc1c4

I'm blinded! icna't tpye nomur.

I can see where folks sit around thinking up worst-case scenarios. However, it usually involves pizza and booze.

And the hypothetical scenarios played out usually involve your choice of being stranded on a desert island with Bea Arthur or Sandra Bernhardt...

83 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:07:46pm

Holdren seems to have a habit for jumping on rather extreme predictions/solutions. Science isn't policy, true. He is now in a position to affect policy. Why are we not supposed to look into the patterns found in his writings, past statements and associations? It seems like a relevant and justified pursuit.

His patterns seem disturbing, why not check them out? Why close the book just because the guy -- in what amounts to a job interview situation -- said he didn't actually think that way and all the predictions he was writing about didn't happen anyway, so problem solved. We don't actually need compulsory population control so ... let's talk about something else.

Is it hands off the Obama nominees/appointees unless they openly bludgeon a monkey or something? Sorry, they deserve a closer look than they've been getting. Thanks, Zombie.

84 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:07:54pm

re: #75 Charles

But he did, 30 years ago, co-author a book which did advocate those things. Today he denounces them. Maybe I'm just a little too cynical, but I'm going to guess his sudden reconsideration of those long ago ideas has something to do with his new political appointment.

85 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:08:08pm

re: #58 MandyManners

He's right about one point -- Exxon has funded think tanks and organizations devoted to propagandizing against climate change theories.

86 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:08:48pm

I just had to turn down an offer to be interviewed on KIRO radio in Seattle. They wanted me live on the air. I said no dice. Them's the breaks -- the price of anonymity.

87 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:09:13pm

re: #75 Charles

I'm not totally excusing Holdren here, by the way -- he does seem inclined to alarmism. But I don't think he's a believer in eugenics, and I don't think he's a sekrit advocate for forced abortions.

I saw Malkin speak about Holdren on Fox this morning. I wish she and others would get away from the eugenics angle--at least long enough to look at his extreme record on the environment of which there is more evidence.

88 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:09:41pm

re: #67 scottishbuzzsaw

No matter the crisis, their solution is always the same.

Now, if Holdren authored some author work which reached the conclusion "under this other hypothetical scenario X, the scientific solution would be... smaller government, and greater individual responsibility", I'd sure like to hear about it.

(I'm not holding my breath.)

89 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:09:51pm

re: #84 Kenneth

But he did, 30 years ago, co-author a book which did advocate those things. Today he denounces them. Maybe I'm just a little too cynical, but I'm going to guess his sudden reconsideration of those long ago ideas has something to do with his new political appointment.

If I'd written a book in the 1970s, I'd probably be in jail.

90 J.S.  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:09:56pm

re: #83 kynna

Another question, of course, is does he now have the "science" to refute his previously held opinions (re: population growth, resource depletion, worldwide epidemics, etc)?

91 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:10:47pm

re: #81 Dianna

I was just thinking that, given the covers of Time over the past 40 years, we've lurched from crisis to crisis.

I think of all this as an example of our addiction to alarmism.

Alarmism is sexy, and it sells. It sells newspapers, books, magazines, TV shows, movies, etc. Basically, one could consider alarmism to be a form of pornography.

92 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:11:07pm

re: #86 zombie

I just had to turn down an offer to be interviewed on KIRO radio in Seattle. They wanted me live on the air. I said no dice. Them's the breaks -- the price of anonymity.

You need to get one of those voice changer boxes. If you control the outgoing signal, you can be certain that your real voice will not be "inadvertently" aired.

93 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:11:15pm

re: #79 doppelganglander

If you can stand Glen Beck, Mark Hemingway of National Review will be on the show to discuss Holdren. It's on right now on the east coast.

Ay Caramba! First Rush this morning, now Glenn Beck.

OMG! I just turned on the radio! He's quoting my transcriptions! Right now!

94 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:11:17pm

why is it that so many of o's cohorts have so much negative, un-american, radical b.s. in their backgrounds that they have to back peddle on, explain away, distance themselves from?
and we are asked to keep giving them all the benefit of the doubt.
it is getting tiresome.
o loves extremists. it is why he picks them. they are who they are.
no matter how they twist when caught.

95 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:11:20pm

How about his friendship with Soros' buddy James Hanson?

96 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:11:26pm

re: #88 Occasional Reader

Now, if Holdren authored some author other work

97 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:11:47pm

re: #73 SixDegrees

I'll agree that the predictions in the book were faulty and probably alarmist. However, it's my understanding that it was a text book. I'm guessing overpopulation was a hot topic during that time period. To write a book that professors would use it would have to include a section on potential overpopulation.
There are very few people who can predict the future as well as someone like Arthur C. Clarke and he was probably way off on many of his predictions. 2001 and 2010 come to mind. Fiction aside, we aren't even close to the technology presented in the books. If predicting the future was easy everybody would be doing it.

98 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:11:47pm
99 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:12:08pm

re: #70 Shiplord Kirel

So, Soylent Green is not people after all.

You read The Sheep Look Up, or Stand on Zanzibar? Or My Petition for More Space? Or, of course, Harry Harrison's Make Room! Make Room!?

All, but all, based on the notion of a sorely over-populated and resource-depleted future.

Then, of course, there are the dystopias based on Future Shock. Lots of those, too. Cyberpunk is a pure expression of those notions, as are Kim Stanley Robinson's books, particularly the Orange County Trilogy, or David Brin's Earth.

We're addicted to alarm. Completely contradictory alarms, at that.

100 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:12:19pm

re: #7 Honorary Yooper

Holdren may no longer hold to those ideas, but his willingness to embrace draconian solutions to perceived problems still troubles me a bit. That is what I do not know if he has renounced or not.

Here's a thought experiment: If I had a three-story house, and if it caught on fire and all other exits were blocked, I might embrace the draconian solution of jumping out the third-story window.

Headline: Ed embraces home fires, violent crippling defenestration

101 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:12:30pm

Now Beck has drifted off into other territory at the moment.

102 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:12:31pm

re: #78 MandyManners

The author of No. 66: Holdren reacts to correction the way a rattlesnake reacts to sudden movement: with velocity and venom. As long ago as the early 1970s, he and Paul Ehrlich engaged in a campaign to silence fellow radical Barry Commoner, a onetime fringe presidential candidate, because the latter viewed technology as more damaging than overpopulation. More recently, he co-authored a scathing, 11-page attack against Bjorn Lomborg for having the temerity to question Green-Left orthodoxy. Yet that pales in comparison to his view of some global warming "deniers."

Pianobuff pointed this out for me this morning.

103 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:12:49pm

Now he's back -- he's focusing on the sterilization thing.

104 Ben Hur  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:13:33pm
The White House also passed along a statement from the Ehrlichs that said, in part, “anybody who actually wants to know what we and/or Professor Holdren believe and recommend about these matters would presumably read some of the dozens of publications that we and he separately have produced in more recent times, rather than going back a third of a century to find some formulations in an encyclopedic textbook where description can be misrepresented as endorsement.”

3rd of a century? Nice way of trying to make 30 years seem like forever.

You think they'd give America a break for her "crimes" of 30+ years ago.

105 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:13:40pm

I missed the beginning of the Beck show -- where did he say he got this info?

106 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:13:41pm

re: #85 Charles

re: #95 MandyManners

To be quite honest, the more I've dug into some of this stuff, the more I find I can't trust anybody. Exxon funds this study, and the Sierra Club funds another. Then you get creationists on one side and George Soros popping up on the other.

107 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:14:18pm

re: #98 buzzsawmonkey

"I no longer think it’s productive" does not mean "I was wrong." It does not mean "I was in thrall to an alarmist theory which events have proven was false." It does not mean "I have learned to be wary of trendy fashions in science." It certainly does not mean "I recognize that I endorsed certain things which even then were morally disgusting."

All it means is "I recognize that continuing to espouse my former ideology will not get me where I want to go."

And that--in one man's opinion--is far, far too little.

"I no longer think it's productive to focus on optimum population" is what he said when asked about a different issue at his confirmation hearing. The current statement is unequivocal:

Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization.

108 Ben Hur  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:14:40pm

re: #85 Charles

He's right about one point -- Exxon has funded think tanks and organizations devoted to propagandizing against climate change theories.


Just like the Sierra Club funds the other side, no?

109 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:14:48pm

re: #103 zombie

Now he's back -- he's focusing on the sterilization thing.

Who is Beck citing as the source of the story? He's been ripping of Alex Jones stories for a while now. I can usually predict the next conservative outrage because the stories appear on InfoWars and Stormfront about a week before the story breaks on Fox and right wing blogs.

110 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:16:22pm

re: #89 Charles

If I'd written a book in the 1970s, I'd probably be in jail.

Do tell?

I love stories of people's mis-spent youth.

111 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:16:55pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Who is Beck citing as the source of the story? He's been ripping of Alex Jones stories for a while now. I can usually predict the next conservative outrage because the stories appear on InfoWars and Stormfront about a week before the story breaks on Fox and right wing blogs.

Yeah, it could have come from infowars.com -- Alex Jones jumped all over this, without crediting zombie.

112 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:17:25pm

re: #91 Honorary Yooper

Alarmism is sexy, and it sells. It sells newspapers, books, magazines, TV shows, movies, etc. Basically, one could consider alarmism to be a form of pornography.

I agree with you 100%.

Question: is there alarmism going on right now, and if so, who's creating it?

113 vxbush  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:17:39pm

re: #99 Dianna

You read The Sheep Look Up, or Stand on Zanzibar? Or My Petition for More Space? Or, of course, Harry Harrison's Make Room! Make Room!?

All, but all, based on the notion of a sorely over-populated and resource-depleted future.

Then, of course, there are the dystopias based on Future Shock. Lots of those, too. Cyberpunk is a pure expression of those notions, as are Kim Stanley Robinson's books, particularly the Orange County Trilogy, or David Brin's Earth.

We're addicted to alarm. Completely contradictory alarms, at that.

I have a friend who was working on a Ph.D. in English about such books and are great concerns for future technology. She's great to talk to about this stuff.

114 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:17:39pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Who is Beck citing as the source of the story? He's been ripping of Alex Jones stories for a while now. I can usually predict the next conservative outrage because the stories appear on InfoWars and Stormfront about a week before the story breaks on Fox and right wing blogs.

Don't know where he got it. Could be Alex Jones, could be Michelle Malkin -- could be LGF, for all I know!

115 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:17:44pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

There are very few people who can predict the future as well as someone like Arthur C. Clarke

Much as I used to love Clarke's work, I don't think he was a particularly good predictor of the future at all. He did predict something like the PDA in Imperial Earth... only it's set about 300 years in the future. And on the other end of the spectrum, needless to say, we're way behind his prediction curve in terms of space travel.

Two eerily accurate sci fi writer predictions I can think of:

-Clarke's short story "I Remember Babylon" (not in all the details of how we get there, but in the end result);

-a Bradbury story whose name escapes me, written in the 50s or 60s, about a near future world in which everyone is constantly yammering at everyone else via mobile telephones, and you're otherwise constantly assaulted by electronic media everywhere you go.

116 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:17:59pm

re: #87 MandyManners

I saw Malkin speak about Holdren on Fox this morning. I wish she and others would get away from the eugenics angle--at least long enough to look at his extreme record on the environment of which there is more evidence.

I agree. A single comment from a coauthored book published over 30 years ago is too easily refuted. It's the ongoing embrace of ideological positions and the forced fit of those ideas into a "scientific" framework used to promote them - and the subsequent collapse of such theories he's offered, in the past - that needs to be looked at. Holdren appears to be an alarmist zealot rather than a scientist; his position as a trusted science advisor is questionable, at best.

Focusing on that one, single snipped will also allow it to be harumphed right out of whatever hearing it's brought up in as something that has already been addressed. The seeming lack of actual scientific process in much of Holdren's work, however, raises serious questions about his competence in his post.

117 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:18:25pm

re: #111 Charles

Yeah, it could have come from infowars.com -- Alex Jones jumped all over this, without crediting zombie.

Much more likely to be Alex Jones, truthfully.

118 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:18:49pm

re: #90 J.S.

Another question, of course, is does he now have the "science" to refute his previously held opinions (re: population growth, resource depletion, worldwide epidemics, etc)?

I'd love to see him answer that one after his 'repudiation'. His is not a good position to put an alarmist, anti-capitalist. His solutions to perceived problems are likely to include some measure that has the government enforcing new, strict regulations.

I suppose it's fine for them to write books that put these 'solutions' out as if they're just another dish on the menu (although those books were/are then given to children/starry-eyed college students for educational purposes), but when he's in a position to potentially make some of those choices a reality (even the lesser ones can be disturbing), ya gotta ask some questions.

119 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:18:59pm
Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization.

No, he never advocated forced sterilization, that's true; he merely said that it might be the only option.

120 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:19:04pm

OK, folks -- is there any way to stuff this back into Pandora's Box? This is getting out of hand.

121 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:20:08pm

re: #120 zombie

OK, folks -- is there any way to stuff this back into Pandora's Box? This is getting out of hand.

You did not start the fire.

122 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:20:12pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

We all do predict the future - whether we realize it or not, though.

You may not remember the seventies, but I do. And I remember - with something close to loathing - the crises we were fed, trying to panic us into actions that (had we succumbed) would have led deeper into many other crises.

123 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:20:17pm

Beck is teasing the Holdren story right now. Should be up right after the commercial.

124 vxbush  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:20:28pm

re: #107 Charles

"Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization."

But isn't that a bending the facts pretty far, given that he did, in fact, consider forced sterilization in the book? He may not hold that position now, and that's fine. But the book does seem to come close to advocating that position. And he is listed as a co-author, one of three, as opposed to being one of fifteen.

125 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:20:34pm

re: #120 zombie

OK, folks -- is there any way to stuff this back into Pandora's Box? This is getting out of hand.

You are not responsible for what others do with information you put out there.

126 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:20:39pm

Now Beck has wandered off to Vann Jones. Shrug.

127 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:21:00pm

re: #86 zombie

I just had to turn down an offer to be interviewed on KIRO radio in Seattle. They wanted me live on the air. I said no dice. Them's the breaks -- the price of anonymity.

I have to credit you Zombie. You have nerves of steel. First with your cartoon expose' and now with this scientist. Does it ever worry you that the WH or somebody in power is going to ferret out your true identity?

128 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:21:27pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

I'll agree that the predictions in the book were faulty and probably alarmist. However, it's my understanding that it was a text book. I'm guessing overpopulation was a hot topic during that time period. To write a book that professors would use it would have to include a section on potential overpopulation.
There are very few people who can predict the future as well as someone like Arthur C. Clarke and he was probably way off on many of his predictions. 2001 and 2010 come to mind. Fiction aside, we aren't even close to the technology presented in the books. If predicting the future was easy everybody would be doing it.

But that's exactly my point: prediction isn't easy at all, yet Holdren and the Ehrlichs hold up their oversimplified, linear predictions as scientifically demonstrated fact in Ecoscience. It's junk science, and anyone claiming to be a scientist would have known that such predictions were based on extremely faulty models, taken pains to elaborate on that point and presented their conclusions in a work of speculative fiction, not a scientific textbook.

129 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:21:28pm

re: #120 zombie

OK, folks -- is there any way to stuff this back into Pandora's Box? This is getting out of hand.

Unfortunately, no. Once Pandora's Box has been opened, there is no way to close it.

130 Walk Not So Softly  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:21:35pm

So he would co-author books about the subject but..." Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization."

He may not feel the same now, which I doubt, but he sure believed in it at one point. The fact that he denies it completely is a red flag.

IMO, He is lying. He just isn't very good at it.

131 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:22:13pm

re: #121 Syrah

You did not start the fire.

re: #125 MandyManners

You are not responsible for what others do with information you put out there.

I do not now, nor have I ever, accused John Holdren of expressing radical ideas!

Whew! OK, now I'm off the hook.

132 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:22:30pm

re: #78 MandyManners

The author of No. 66: Holdren reacts to correction the way a rattlesnake reacts to sudden movement: with velocity and venom. As long ago as the early 1970s, he and Paul Ehrlich engaged in a campaign to silence fellow radical Barry Commoner, a onetime fringe presidential candidate, because the latter viewed technology as more damaging than overpopulation. More recently, he co-authored a scathing, 11-page attack against Bjorn Lomborg for having the temerity to question Green-Left orthodoxy. Yet that pales in comparison to his view of some global warming "deniers."

According to Citizen Hughes, based on material stolen from Howard Hughes's personal warehouse a few years after his death, a large payment from Hughes to Commoner in 1968 practically created the anti-nuclear movement as a mainstream cultural phenomenon in this country. Hughes, then living in Las Vegas, obviously had no problem with nuclear weapons. He was squabbling with the Atomic Energy Commission over one of his many deals with the military industrial complex. In an effort to put pressure on the commission, he hit on the idea of stirring up protests against the Nevada Nuclear Test Site.

Looking over the selection of available lefty rabble-rousers, he wisely selected Commoner as the best choice for the job. A sum changed hands; pocket change to Hughes, manna from heaven to Commoner and his gang, who were hard-pressed to compete with the anti-Vietnam war movement for available left-wing donations and other loot. The scheme succeeded beyond Hughes's wildest dreams, Commoner raised a veritable army of hippies and do-gooders in nearby California. They descended on the Nevada test site, swarms of media collaborators in tow. This brought anti-nuclear agitation out of the Euro-communist ghetto and put it on the counterculture and media conformist maps for the first time.

133 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:22:31pm

What concerns me is that this issue could be used to discredit those who go after Holdren on his extreme views on the environment.

134 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:22:43pm

re: #126 zombie

Now Beck has wandered off to Vann Jones. Shrug.

Oh, you're listening to the radio show. I've got his TV show on. I'll let you know if he gives you credit.

135 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:23:00pm

re: #128 SixDegrees

But that's exactly my point: prediction isn't easy at all

... especially about the future.

/Yogi-ism for the day

136 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:23:01pm

re: #75 Charles

I'm not totally excusing Holdren here, by the way -- he does seem inclined to alarmism. But I don't think he's a believer in eugenics, and I don't think he's a sekrit advocate for forced abortions.

I agree there is no way for us here to tell what is really in his heart and soul and it is neither wrong nor unrealistic for people to posit potential responses to worst-case studies. But, the sad truth is that some of the doctors and scientists who proposed such things weren't limited to the Third Reich. The people who taught Holdren and others were from the same school of ethics which carried on the syphilis studies at Tuskegee.

I also agree that there is no way barring a major catastrophe that any such programs could be legally implemented. So many things would have to go horribly wrong before anyone gave serious consideration to doing such a thing. To suggest that it might be done illegally (it's in the water!) is like saying the CIA invented Crack to keep the black man down.

Back to the salt mine...

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:23:03pm

re: #51 Fenway_Nation

Maybe Holdren will forget how to speak English like Sammy Sosa did when he went before Congress...

I heet ze ball.

138 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:23:24pm

re: #121 Syrah

You did not start the fire.

139 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:23:43pm

re: #120 zombie

OK, folks -- is there any way to stuff this back into Pandora's Box? This is getting out of hand.

I think it's a useful place to start from. The next step, which you've said you've already taken, is to begin examining the corpus of Holdern's work to see if there is a pattern of scientific malfeasance and misrepresentation in it similar to what is found in Ecoscience.

I'm guessing it's a search that will yield rich results.

140 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:23:48pm

re: #82 Fenway_Nation

And the hypothetical scenarios played out usually involve your choice of being stranded on a desert island with Bea Arthur or Sandra Bernhardt...

You've described the 10th Circle of Hell.

141 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:24:16pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

I heet ze ball.

Sammy Sosa is French?

/

142 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:24:20pm

re: #127 WinterCat

I have to credit you Zombie. You have nerves of steel. First with your cartoon expose' and now with this scientist. Does it ever worry you that the WH or somebody in power is going to ferret out your true identity?

Yeah, I worry -- but just how spiteful could the White House be? That itself would be beyond the pale -- hunting down a blogger for citing someone's own words. I'm quite sure that the NSA or the CIA could track me down if they wanted to, but the outrage over political vindictiveness would not be worth it for them.

143 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:24:23pm

re: #131 zombie

I do not now, nor have I ever, accused John Holdren of expressing radical ideas!

Whew! OK, now I'm off the hook.

You just pointed to the facts. What people do with them is something way beyond your control.

144 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:24:27pm

re: #132 Shiplord Kirel

According to Citizen Hughes, based on material stolen from Howard Hughes's personal warehouse a few years after his death, a large payment from Hughes to Commoner in 1968 practically created the anti-nuclear movement as a mainstream cultural phenomenon in this country. Hughes, then living in Las Vegas, obviously had no problem with nuclear weapons. He was squabbling with the Atomic Energy Commission over one of his many deals with the military industrial complex. In an effort to put pressure on the commission, he hit on the idea of stirring up protests against the Nevada Nuclear Test Site.

Looking over the selection of available lefty rabble-rousers, he wisely selected Commoner as the best choice for the job. A sum changed hands; pocket change to Hughes, manna from heaven to Commoner and his gang, who were hard-pressed to compete with the anti-Vietnam war movement for available left-wing donations and other loot. The scheme succeeded beyond Hughes's wildest dreams, Commoner raised a veritable army of hippies and do-gooders in nearby California. They descended on the Nevada test site, swarms of media collaborators in tow. This brought anti-nuclear agitation out of the Euro-communist ghetto and put it on the counterculture and media conformist maps for the first time.

I had no idea! Sounds like the rule of unintended consequences was invoked.

145 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:24:40pm

re: #115 Occasional Reader

The Bradbury story might - might! - be the scene in Farenheit 451 in which our hero is trying to memorize a passage from a book, and the constant yammering interferes with it. He stands up and shouts, "Shut up! Shut up!"

I entirely empathize.

146 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:25:55pm

re: #120 zombie

OK, folks -- is there any way to stuff this back into Pandora's Box? This is getting out of hand.

Nope.

And I'm not really sorry, either.

147 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:26:34pm

re: #82 Fenway_Nation

And the hypothetical scenarios played out usually involve your choice of being stranded on a desert island with Bea Arthur or Sandra Bernhardt...

I read book one time about a large, butch woman who went looking for the Holy Grail with some other knights. It was call Morte bea'Arthur

148 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:26:38pm

re: #142 zombie

Yeah, I worry -- but just how spiteful could the White House be? That itself would be beyond the pale -- hunting down a blogger for citing someone's own words. I'm quite sure that the NSA or the CIA could track me down if they wanted to, but the outrage over political vindictiveness would not be worth it for them.


I think the more likely scenario would be a sudden interest by the IRS in your tax returns.

149 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:27:05pm

So let me get this straight. This writes something outrages 3 decades ago, but that's just old news and not anything to pay attention to now? Hum, Now let me see, it seems that what I did 3 decades ago counted when I got my security clearance from the Navy? So the rules are different for this guy why?

150 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:27:11pm

re: #145 Dianna

The Bradbury story might - might! - be the scene in Farenheit 451

Nope, it was definitely a short story. The story opens with the police getting ready to interrogate a "terrorist", who basically used ECM to shut down lots of the (as we would now call them) cell towers and other electonic media. Most of the story is basically the "terrorist's" explanation to the police, of how he was just looking to have some peace and quiet. You come to realize he's something like the last sane man!

151 Picayune  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:27:12pm

Holdren is getting air play now on G. Beck. A reference to Dr. Strangelove was made.

152 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:27:35pm

re: #120 zombie

OK, folks -- is there any way to stuff this back into Pandora's Box? This is getting out of hand.

No, I think Pandora might have something to say about it, too.

153 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:27:36pm

re: #149 Nevergiveup

So let me get this straight. This writes something outrages 3 decades ago, but that's just old news and not anything to pay attention to now? Hum, Now let me see, it seems that what I did 3 decades ago counted when I got my security clearance from the Navy? So the rules are different for this guy why?

Democrat.

154 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:27:41pm

re: #122 Dianna

We all do predict the future - whether we realize it or not, though.

You may not remember the seventies, but I do. And I remember - with something close to loathing - the crises we were fed, trying to panic us into actions that (had we succumbed) would have led deeper into many other crises.

I remember the 70's. The eco-alarmist propaganda was aimed straight at kids and it was designed to scare the bejebus out of us. I go through everything with my daughter and let her know what's settled fact and what isn't.

She takes things with a grain of salt, but it's a constant barrage of this stuff. I just want her to be able to sleep at night.

155 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:27:55pm
156 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:28:09pm

re: #153 wrenchwench

Democrat.

Good point.

157 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:28:57pm

re: #151 Picayune

Holdren is getting air play now on G. Beck. A reference to Dr. Strangelove was made.

"Mein Fuhrer! I can VALK!"?

158 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:29:07pm

re: #147 calcajun

I read book one time about a large, butch woman who went looking for the Holy Grail with some other knights. It was call Morte bea'Arthur

[doffs hat]

159 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:29:10pm

re: #149 Nevergiveup

So let me get this straight. This writes something outrages 3 decades ago, but that's just old news and not anything to pay attention to now? Hum, Now let me see, it seems that what I did 3 decades ago counted when I got my security clearance from the Navy? So the rules are different for this guy why?

+ more dings than I can give. Well said.

160 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:29:18pm

Bad news, everybody: It's good news...
U.S. Stocks Rise as Roubini Predicts Recession to End This Year

U.S. stocks rose for a fourth day, the longest streak in six weeks, as economist Nouriel Roubini said the worst of the financial crisis is over and the recession will end this year, while takeover speculation lifted commodity shares.
...
“The optimism that people are starting to embrace is that the recession may be months away from ending,” said David Goerz, who oversees $17 billion as chief investment officer at Highmark Capital Management in San Francisco. “Even the most bearish forecasters are starting to capitulate.”
...
“The freefall of the economy has stopped,” Roubini said at a Chilean investors’ conference in New York. “There is light at the end of the tunnel. And the light at the end of the tunnel for once is not the one of an incoming train.”

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:29:19pm

re: #141 Occasional Reader

Sammy Sosa is French?

/

SNL or MadTV sketch. It's all he can say, until he's told he can go, at which point he develops fluent, ghetto-influenced English as he yells for his car to be pulled around the front.

162 Kragar  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:29:31pm

re: #149 Nevergiveup

So let me get this straight. This writes something outrages 3 decades ago, but that's just old news and not anything to pay attention to now? Hum, Now let me see, it seems that what I did 3 decades ago counted when I got my security clearance from the Navy? So the rules are different for this guy why?

He's a liberal.

163 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:29:37pm

00:21 Obama designates $1.8b for emergency use in fight against swine flu (Reuters)

Personally I'd rather build a few more F-22s

164 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:30:29pm

re: #153 wrenchwench

Democrat.

ozero appointee. The science is settled.

165 yochanan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:30:31pm

I hear the liberal chatting class every day here in Chicagostan, frankly these radical views are the norm not the exception If they had there way yours truely and most of the other lizards would be in JOY CAMPS right now.

166 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:30:47pm

re: #155 buzzsawmonkey

It is Holdren's self-enthrallment to the trendy doomsday scenario of the then-moment

Yep... and, as I mentioned above, the fact that his pet doomsday scenarios always - by a remarkable coincidence - lead to a call for the same kind of solution: Monstrously huge, globalized government intrusion into personal freedom.

167 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:31:20pm

I've been reading some of Ehrlich's recent writings, over the last hour or two. My God, he's an out-and-out moonbat, ranting on about the Iraq War and Bush as if he was a commenter at Democratic Underground.

168 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:31:27pm

re: #163 Nevergiveup

00:21 Obama designates $1.8b for emergency use in fight against swine flu (Reuters)

Personally I'd rather build a few more F-22s

F-22s can be used to cure swine flu?

169 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:31:30pm

re: #155 buzzsawmonkey

Frankly, Charles, while the issues of forced abortion and forced sterilization are troubling (since the current "never has been" denial seems somewhat at odds with Holdren's earlier work), it is not those issues specifically that bother me. It is Holdren's self-enthrallment to the trendy doomsday scenario of the then-moment, and the lack of any indication that Holdren recognizes that said scenario was overblown at the time, or that he has learned from his enthrallment with that overblown scenario to be wary of giving himself over to the next overblown doomsday prediction. That, and his utter inability to say the few simple words, "I was wrong (or even "mistaken") for believing that," which denotes a combination of insecurity and arrogance that does not bode well even if he were such a paragon as to be on the right side of each and every issue for the rest of his life.

It is also really kind of interesting just how many Obama appointees have to disavow their previous stands on a variety of issues. Has anyone kept track of the running tally of Obama picks who have had to decline or resign based on their past records, writings, works?

170 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:31:58pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

F-22s can be used to cure swine flu?

F-22s can do anything and everything

171 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:32:11pm

No mention of zombie on Beck's TV show. He didn't delve too deeply into Holdren's work, although he did brandish a copy of "Ecoscience" from the Columbia University library. He didn't let Mark Hemingway say very much except to force Hemingway to agree with him. He got in a totally unrelated point about a company that was working on contraceptive corn in 2001 (which Holdren apparently had absolutely nothing to do with), then he moved on to the "Green Czar" who admits he became a communist after the Rodney King riots in 1992.

172 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:32:44pm

re: #170 Nevergiveup

F-22s can do anything and everything

Where does a F-22 pilot sleep?

173 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:32:53pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

F-22s can be used to cure swine flu?

Well... they can cure you of swine flu, sure. Of course, the cure is rather drastic.

174 callahan23  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:33:03pm

re: #165 yochanan

I hear the liberal chatting class every day here in Chicagostan, frankly these radical views are the norm not the exception If they had there way yours truely and most of the other lizards would be in JOY CAMPS right now.

Oh what a joy. /// Would we be getting a daily dose of drugs then?
///

175 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:33:13pm

re: #171 doppelganglander

No mention of zombie on Beck's TV show. He didn't delve too deeply into Holdren's work, although he did brandish a copy of "Ecoscience" from the Columbia University library. He didn't let Mark Hemingway say very much except to force Hemingway to agree with him. He got in a totally unrelated point about a company that was working on contraceptive corn in 2001 (which Holdren apparently had absolutely nothing to do with), then he moved on to the "Green Czar" who admits he became a communist after the Rodney King riots in 1992.

That's funny I became more conservative after the Rodney King riots? Go figure.

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:33:19pm

re: #166 Occasional Reader

Yep... and, as I mentioned above, the fact that his pet doomsday scenarios always - by a remarkable coincidence - lead to a call for the same kind of solution: Monstrously huge, globalized government intrusion into personal freedom.

Most Doomsday scenarios do, for some reason, except for the classically American counter-scenario where the scenarizer imagines living by his wits in a recreated frontier and shooting anyone who threatens his survival.

177 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:33:20pm

re: #129 Honorary Yooper

Unfortunately, no. Once Pandora's Box has been opened, there is no way to close it.

Not quite - Pandora does manage to close the box.

Mom was addicted to Greek myths. I grew up on those. re: #160 Killgore Trout

Bad news, everybody: It's good news...
U.S. Stocks Rise as Roubini Predicts Recession to End This Year

I only care if the free-fall has, indeed, stopped.

178 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:33:21pm

re: #148 eschew_obfuscation

I think the more likely scenario would be a sudden interest by the IRS in your tax returns.

I think the blogsphere and anyone in the right wing media would go nuts over that. It would become a major story.

179 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:33:31pm

re: #154 kynna

I remember the 70's. The eco-alarmist propaganda was aimed straight at kids and it was designed to scare the bejebus out of us. I go through everything with my daughter and let her know what's settled fact and what isn't.

She takes things with a grain of salt, but it's a constant barrage of this stuff. I just want her to be able to sleep at night.

On the first Earthday, 1970, some college kids came to my junior high school to teach us about Ecology. They took a pledge right there in front of us not to have more than two kids. Not a radical position, I guess, but food for thought to a girl with three brothers, three sisters, and 30 first cousins.

180 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:33:31pm

re: #172 VegasRick

Where does a F-22 pilot sleep?

Anywhere he wants?

181 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:33:35pm

re: #167 zombie

I've been reading some of Ehrlich's recent writings, over the last hour or two. My God, he's an out-and-out moonbat, ranting on about the Iraq War and Bush as if he was a commenter at Democratic Underground.

Yes, Paul Ehrlich is a complete moonbat. He has been since at least the 1960s when he wrote The Population Bomb, and it seems he's gotten worse with time.

182 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:34:30pm

re: #180 Nevergiveup

Anywhere he wants?

Yep!

183 The Hoopster  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:34:36pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

F-22s can be used to cure swine flu?

Oh yeah... Problem is the cure is worse than the disease..
It has an injection I just can't live with

184 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:34:37pm

I certainly hope so!

(and I'd help)

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:34:48pm

re: #173 Occasional Reader

Well... they can cure you of swine flu, sure. Of course, the cure is rather drastic.

I understand that cutting off your head also cures acne--or at any rate, you don't get any more.

186 Pianobuff  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:35:01pm

re: #133 MandyManners

What concerns me is that this issue could be used to discredit those who go after Holdren on his extreme views on the environment.

Yup. As I understand it, he believes it's possible that 1 billion people could die by 2020 due to global warming. It's been attributed as a prediction of his in the eighties but he's since walked it back to where he says "I think it could happen" and "I think we should invest effort - considerable effort - to reduce the likelihood further."

Pretty much leaves the door wide open for all sorts of fun stuff, doesn't it?

187 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:35:02pm

re: #177 Dianna

Not quite - Pandora does manage to close the box.

Forgot about that for a moment. She lets all the monsters out, but one thing is left in the box when she closes it, Hope, IIRC.

188 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:35:07pm

re: #99 Dianna

You read The Sheep Look Up, or Stand on Zanzibar? Or My Petition for More Space? Or, of course, Harry Harrison's Make Room! Make Room!?

All, but all, based on the notion of a sorely over-populated and resource-depleted future.

Then, of course, there are the dystopias based on Future Shock. Lots of those, too. Cyberpunk is a pure expression of those notions, as are Kim Stanley Robinson's books, particularly the Orange County Trilogy, or David Brin's Earth.

We're addicted to alarm. Completely contradictory alarms, at that.

I've read all of those. John Brunner, author of The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, also wrote the words to the lefty anti-nuke anthem The H-bomb's Thunder.

I was always aware that the kaleidoscope style of Stand on Zanzibar was, er, borrowed from John Dos Passos, but I rather enjoyed it anyway. As prophecy it has mostly fallen flat, but the concept of the "muckers," seemingly ordinary folk who suddenly fly into heedless frenzies of murder, is almost eerily prescient.

189 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:35:08pm

re: #172 VegasRick

Where does a F-22 pilot sleep?

In the bedroom of whatever young woman he picks out at the bar?

190 Kragar  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:35:33pm

Oh, Joe, thanks for the smiles you bring us:

Joe Biden: ‘We Have to Go Spend Money to Keep From Going Bankrupt’

Vice President Joe Biden told people attending an AARP town hall meeting that unless the Democrat-supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt and that the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money.

“And folks look, AARP knows and the people working here today know, the president knows, and I know, that the status quo is simply not acceptable,” Biden said at the event on Thursday in Alexandria, Va. “It’s totally unacceptable. And it’s completely unsustainable. Even if we wanted to keep it the way we have it. It can’t do it financially.”

“We’re going to go bankrupt as a nation,” Biden said.

“Well, people when I say that look at me and say, ‘What are you talking about? You’re telling me we have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt?’” Biden said. “The answer is yes, I’m telling you.”

191 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:35:40pm

re: #187 Honorary Yooper

Forgot about that for a moment. She lets all the monsters out, but one thing is left in the box when she closes it, Hope, IIRC.

No, she nearly shuts it in, but does let it out. (And Change, too?)

192 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:35:40pm

re: #183 HoosierHoops

Oh yeah... Problem is the cure is worse than the disease..
It has an injection I just can't live with

Well either don't get swine flu or don't whine about it?
/

193 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:35:50pm

re: #177 Dianna

I think it's a safe bet that the economic free fall is over with. The question remains as to what the recovery is going to look like.

194 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:36:05pm

re: #155 buzzsawmonkey

It is Holdren's self-enthrallment to the trendy doomsday scenario of the then-moment, and the lack of any indication that Holdren recognizes that said scenario was overblown at the time, or that he has learned from his enthrallment with that overblown scenario to be wary of giving himself over to the next overblown doomsday prediction.

Check out what he says about the environment in the DemocracyNow! article.

AMY GOODMAN: This term “global warming,” you don’t like it.

JOHN HOLDREN: I don’t like the term “global warming,” because it’s misleading. It implies something that’s mainly about temperature, that’s gradual, and that’s uniform across the planet. And in fact, temperature is only one of the things that’s changing. It’s a sort of an index of the state of climate. The whole climate is changing: the winds, the ocean currents, the storm patterns, snow packs, snowmelt, flooding, droughts. Temperature is just a bit of it.

It’s also highly non-uniform. The largest changes are occurring in the far north in the Arctic, in the Antarctic Peninsula in the far south. It is certainly not gradual, in the sense that it is rapid compared to the capacity of ecosystems to adjust. It’s rapid compared to the capacity of human systems to adjust.

AMY GOODMAN: How extreme is the situation right now?

JOHN HOLDREN: I think that most people, even most scientists, continue to underestimate how far down the path to climate catastrophe we’ve already traveled. We are committed, the United States and 190 other countries are committed, under the Framework Convention on Climate Change to avoid dangerous human interference in the climate system. And the fact is, it’s already too late to do that. We’re already experiencing dangerous interference. Floods, major floods, are up all over the world. Wildfires are up in almost every region of the world where wildfires have been a problem. Wildfires erupt fourfold in the last thirty years in the western United States.

SNIP

He's STILL into doomsday scenarios!

195 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:36:39pm

re: #178 WinterCat

I think the blogsphere and anyone in the right wing media would go nuts over that. It would become a major story.

re: #184 eschew_obfuscation

I certainly hope so!

(and I'd help)

184 was about 178...sorry

196 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:37:03pm

re: #166 Occasional Reader

Yep... and, as I mentioned above, the fact that his pet doomsday scenarios always - by a remarkable coincidence - lead to a call for the same kind of solution: Monstrously huge, globalized government intrusion into personal freedom.

See my No. 194. He's STILL at it.

197 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:37:03pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

I think it's a safe bet that the economic free fall is over with. The question remains as to what the recovery is going to look like.

Famous last words? meet ya on the bread line

198 jcm  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:37:20pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

F-22s can be used to cure swine flu?

Like the Billion in the the war funding bill for Cash for Clunkers.

199 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:37:29pm
200 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:37:33pm

re: #188 Shiplord Kirel

I keep thinking about Matthew Arnold.

201 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:37:34pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Bad news, everybody: It's good news...
U.S. Stocks Rise as Roubini Predicts Recession to End This Year

Now all we have to do is stop this administration's INSANE SPENDING and we will recover normally.

202 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:37:53pm

re: #186 Pianobuff

Yup. As I understand it, he believes it's possible that 1 billion people could die by 2020 due to global warming. It's been attributed as a prediction of his in the eighties but he's since walked it back to where he says "I think it could happen" and "I think we should invest effort - considerable effort - to reduce the likelihood further."

Pretty much leaves the door wide open for all sorts of fun stuff, doesn't it?

The DemocracyNow! article is pretty amazing.

203 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:38:00pm

re: #194 MandyManners

SNIP

He's STILL into doomsday scenarios!

Climate catastrophe? I think this guy's continuing embrace of apocalyptic scenarios betrays some serious psychological problems.

204 Pianobuff  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:38:23pm

re: #194 MandyManners

See my #186 Mandy...

205 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:38:29pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

I think it's a safe bet that the economic free fall is over with. The question remains as to what the recovery is going to look like.

Dead cat bounce? Messy splat? Frozen turkey dropped on a trampoline?

206 yochanan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:38:32pm

re: #172 VegasRick

any were he wants

207 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:38:39pm

re: #199 buzzsawmonkey

In the immortal words of Gomer Pyle, "Sooprise, sooprise, sooprise!"

He reminds me of a rabid terrier.

208 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:38:41pm

re: #200 Dianna

I keep thinking about Matthew Arnold.

The British place name puns are dover in the previous thread.

209 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:38:46pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

I think it's a safe bet that the economic free fall is over with. The question remains as to what the recovery is going to look like.

I'll wait for 3 Wood's analysis tomorrow morning. He's been pretty consistent with this stuff.

210 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:38:52pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

F-22s can be used to cure swine flu?

Reminds me of a tagline I've seen: "There is no human problem that cannot be solved by the proper application of high explosives."

211 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:39:12pm

re: #190 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh, Joe, thanks for the smiles you bring us:

Joe Biden: ‘We Have to Go Spend Money to Keep From Going Bankrupt’

Didn't Bush tell us to go shopping after 9/11. If I recall the left mocked that. They will probably start mocking Smiling Joe for this remark any second now.

waiting...

212 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:39:13pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

I think it's a safe bet that the economic free fall is over with. The question remains as to what the recovery is going to look like.

What evidence do you have of that? I plan to bookmark your response so we can check back in a few months.

213 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:39:46pm
214 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:39:54pm

re: #203 doppelganglander

Climate catastrophe? I think this guy's continuing embrace of apocalyptic scenarios betrays some serious psychological problems.

OCD?

215 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:39:57pm

re: #208 Occasional Reader

The British place name puns are dover in the previous thread.

Quite dorking us around.

216 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:40:03pm

re: #3 Occasional Reader

Um... hmm. I don't buy it. There was a political agenda driving this from the very beginning; it wasn't just good, solid science.

Charles is correct in
"probably as much admission as you’ll ever get from a bureaucratic scientist."

However, I agree with you. Just because Holdren has found it is no longer productive (or career enhancing) to radically tout the sterilization and zero growth strategies which were published under his name (with others) does not mean that he has changed his mind about things.

217 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:40:16pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Bad news, everybody: It's good news...
U.S. Stocks Rise as Roubini Predicts Recession to End This Year

You forgot this part:

U.S. Recession May End This Year, Roubini Predicts

“We should continue with fiscal stimulus and we might need a second one,” Roubini*, 51, said today. There’s still a “meaningful amount of weakness” in labor markets, industrial production and housing, he said.

A second stimulus package of as much as $250 billion may be needed sometime early next year, particularly if unemployment goes “well above 10 percent by the end of the year,” he said.

From Wiki:

*During President Bill Clinton’s administration he was a senior economist for the Council of Economic Advisers later moving to the United States Treasury Department as a senior adviser to Timothy Geithner who is now Treasury Secretary.

Ideologue.

218 jcm  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:40:57pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

I think it's a safe bet that the economic free fall is over with. The question remains as to what the recovery is going to look like.

Orders are up from our customers, we'll make money this quarter. We only lost 3 million last quarter compared with 21 million in the first quarter. Of course we cut 10% of the work force in the last few months.

219 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:41:08pm

re: #204 Pianobuff

See my #186 Mandy...

See my No. 202.

TAG! YOU'RE IT!

220 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:41:27pm

Gotta' go!

221 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:41:39pm

re: #208 Occasional Reader

The British place name puns are dover in the previous thread.

I'm damned close to down-dinging you for that!

222 jaunte  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:41:57pm

re: #188 Shiplord Kirel

Didn't Brunner predict the prevalence of amateur newsgathering (videographers) in Stand on Zanzibar? That may have been one of the first predictions of the blogosphere.

223 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:41:57pm

re: #218 jcm

Orders are up from our customers, we'll make money this quarter. We only lost 3 million last quarter compared with 21 million in the first quarter. Of course we cut 10% of the work force in the last few months.

I wonder how the "recover" is going for them?

224 Kragar  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:42:13pm

re: #210 Shiplord Kirel

Reminds me of a tagline I've seen: "There is no human problem that cannot be solved by the proper application of high explosives."

But dont forget one of Mr Welch's rules, "Plan B is not automatically the same as Plan A using twice as much explosives."

225 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:42:15pm

re: #217 Gus 802

“We should continue with fiscal stimulus and we might need a second one,” Roubini*, 51, said today.


Golly... okay, here's an idea for a stimulus: Cut capital gains tax rate to zero.

What? That's not what you meant, Mr. Roubini?!

226 Pianobuff  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:42:26pm

Senate Commerce Committee – February 12, 2009

Excerpt: Senator David Vitter (R-Louisiana): OK. Another statement. In
1986, you predicted that global warming could cause the deaths of one
billion people by 2020. Would you stick to that statement today?

Holdren: Well, again, I wouldn't have called it a prediction then, and I
wouldn't call it a prediction now. I think it is unlikely to happen, but
it is ...

Vitter (interrupting): Do you think it could happen?

Holdren: I think it could happen, and the way it could happen is climate
crosses a tipping point in which a catastrophic degree of climate change
has severe impacts on global agriculture. A lot of people depend on
that...

Vitter (interrupting): So you would stick to that statement?

Holdren: I don't think it's likely. I think we should invest effort -
considerable effort - to reduce the likelihood further.

Vitter:
Dr. Holdren, one of the lines in the President's Inaugural Address which
I most appreciated was his comment about science, and honoring that, and
not having it overtaken by ideology. My concern is that as one of his
top science advisors, that many statements you've made in the past don't
meet that test, and so I wanted to explore that. One is from 1971, an
article with Paul Ehrlich, titled Global Ecology, in which you predicted
that, "some form of eco-catastrophe, if not thermonuclear war, seems
almost certain to overtake us before the end of the century." Do you
think that was a responsible prediction?

Holdren:
Well, thank you, Senator, for that..., um..., for that question. First
of all, I guess I would say that one of the things I've learned in the
intervening nearly four decades is that predictions about the future are
difficult. That was a statement which at least, at the age of 26, I had
the good sense to hedge by saying "almost certain". The trends at the
time were not, ah..., were not positive, either with respect to the
dangers of thermonuclear war or with respect to ecological dangers of a
variety of sorts. A lot of things were getting worse. I would argue that
the motivation for looking at the downside possibilities - the
possibilities that can go wrong if things continue in a bad direction is
to motivate people to change direction. That was my intention at the
time. In many respects there were changes in direction which reduced the
possibility of nuclear war through arms control agreements and there
were changes in direction in national and international policy with
respect to environmental problems, including a good many laws passed by
this Congress.

Vitter:
Given all that context, do you think that was a responsible prediction
at the time?

Holdren:
Senator, with respect, I would want to distinguish between predictions
and, ahh, description of possibilities which we would like to avert. I
think it is responsible to call attention to the dangers that society
faces, so we'll make the investments and make the changes to reduce
those dangers.

Notice the nuanced language in bold ... I'm not predicting - I'm just noting the doomsday possibility so we can react like loony control freaks.

227 LionofDixon  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:42:30pm

"I could no more disavow eugenics than I could disown my own white Grandmother...Oh, wait, I've got to get elected/confirmed...I wholeheartedly disavow eugenics..."

Sure I believe 'em on this one...

228 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:42:34pm

re: #221 Dianna

I'm damned close to down-dinging you for that!

With so much dinging-- perhaps it's Avon calling?/

229 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:42:37pm

re: #194 MandyManners

SNIP

He's STILL into doomsday scenarios!

Remember, only YOU can prevent climate induced wildfires.

230 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:43:12pm

re: #214 MandyManners

OCD?

I am only an armchair psychologist, but I would guess it shows a deep need for control, possibly growing out of a chaotic childhood. The bigger the crisis, the more glory he receives for recognizing and solving the problem. I would really like to see how this guy reacts to making a minor mistake, like getting lost while driving.

231 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:43:13pm

re: #214 MandyManners

OCD?

Obsessive Climate Disorder?

232 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:43:27pm
233 lincolntf  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:43:41pm

Hi all.
Looks like that Honduran ex-President is making another attempt to go home. What a dope. Don't Laugh at me, Honduras...

234 Kragar  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:43:45pm

re: #229 Eowyn2

Remember, only YOU can prevent climate induced wildfires.

Prevent? Shit, I'll be back in a little bit.

235 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:43:51pm

re: #197 Nevergiveup

Famous last words? meet ya on the bread line

Seriously. We haven't even experienced the full measure of the residential real estate downturn, much less the depression in commercial real estate.

I'll believe the recession is over when I see it. Right now, I'm seeing my state scrambling to cover debts without cutting spending. I don't think we're looking at the end of anything here.

236 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:44:20pm

re: #218 jcm

Orders are up from our customers, we'll make money this quarter. We only lost 3 million last quarter compared with 21 million in the first quarter. Of course we cut 10% of the work force in the last few months.

I assume unemployment will continue to rise for the next quarter or two.

237 VioletTiger  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:44:24pm

re: #190 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh, Joe, thanks for the smiles you bring us:

Joe Biden: ‘We Have to Go Spend Money to Keep From Going Bankrupt’

He is an idiot.

238 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:44:59pm

re: #226 Pianobuff

Senate Commerce Committee – February 12, 2009

Notice the nuanced language in bold ... I'm not predicting - I'm just noting the doomsday possibility so we can react like loony control freaks.

It all depends on what your definition of is is.

239 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:45:08pm

re: #190 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh, Joe, thanks for the smiles you bring us:

Joe Biden: ‘We Have to Go Spend Money to Keep From Going Bankrupt’


think my credit card will believe me?
"I have to charge more so that I have the money to pay you"

240 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:46:08pm

re: #237 VioletTiger

He is an idiot.

Truly - even if that's repetitive.

241 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:46:22pm

re: #230 doppelganglander

I am only an armchair psychologist, but I would guess it shows a deep need for control, possibly growing out of a chaotic childhood. The bigger the crisis, the more glory he receives for recognizing and solving the problem. I would really like to see how this guy reacts to making a minor mistake, like getting lost while driving.

Star Chartes?

242 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:46:42pm

re: #225 Occasional Reader

Golly... okay, here's an idea for a stimulus: Cut capital gains tax rate to zero.

What? That's not what you meant, Mr. Roubini?!

Not with this crew. They believe in "trickle up" economics or using tax revenues to "prop up" the economy. Roubini is contradicting recent observations regarding Stimulus I. Now, a couple of days later he shows up and inspires a miniature rally in stocks after his guru-like statement while at the same time endorsing a second stimulus package currently pondered by the White House.

243 DistantThunder  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:46:49pm

re: #239 Eowyn2

think my credit card will believe me?
"I have to charge more so that I have the money to pay you"

It's the new Obama math.

244 Pullus Iulius  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:47:10pm

re: #238 WinterCat

It all depends on what your definition of is is.

Is is the difference between nuance and nuisance.

245 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:47:13pm

re: #222 jaunte

Didn't Brunner predict the prevalence of amateur newsgathering (videographers) in Stand on Zanzibar? That may have been one of the first predictions of the blogosphere.

He did indeed but the difference is that the amateurs in Stand on Zanzibar did not have their own global outlets. "Mucker" outbreaks were often documented by amateurs, with the video shown on ratings-hungry commercial networks. This created a cottage industry of amateurs roaming the streets looking for lurid imagery, much as we have today.
The term "mucker" was said to be a combination of "mugger" and "run amok," btw.

246 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:47:20pm

re: #226 Pianobuff

Now THAT was a scary post. o_O

247 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:47:28pm

re: #235 kynna

I'll believe the recession is over when I see it. Right now, I'm seeing my state scrambling to cover debts without cutting spending. I don't think we're looking at the end of anything here.


I think that's been a real shortcoming the the Republican response to the economic crisis under Obama. It's beyond anyone's imagination that Obama might save the economy so they reflexively opposed everything. They missed some serious opportunities to participate in the solutions.

248 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:47:37pm

!0 years ago today?

249 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:47:46pm

Later.

250 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:47:48pm

re: #236 Killgore Trout

I assume unemployment will continue to rise for the next quarter or two.

One of my concerns with the Obama plan is that unemployment will rise and the WH knows that the more it does the more "necessary" government intervention will become. The more people who end up out of work, the more people will need gov't assistance. It is a self-perpetuating Empire building scenario.

251 jaunte  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:48:31pm

re: #245 Shiplord Kirel

Pappamuckerazzi!

252 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:48:49pm

re: #244 Pullus Iulius

Is is the difference between nuance and nuisance.


Or semantics and antics.

253 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:49:32pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

I think that's been a real shortcoming the the Republican response to the economic crisis under Obama. It's beyond anyone's imagination that Obama might save the economy so they reflexively opposed everything. They missed some serious opportunities to participate in the solutions.

Like Cap and Trade?

254 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:49:38pm

re: #106 Honorary Yooper

re: #95 MandyManners

To be quite honest, the more I've dug into some of this stuff, the more I find I can't trust anybody. Exxon funds this study, and the Sierra Club funds another. Then you get creationists on one side and George Soros popping up on the other.

that is a problem. both sides have their experts. who is lying. what are their motives. they all have their "facts". i don't even want to know.
what i focus on is who is pushing for the most radical ideas. i don't trust the alarmists who want to put such onerous restrictions on this country when there is no proof they will 'work.' and they insist it has to happen now because the "debate is over." put the plans into action and severely restrict our way of life. while other countries continue to pollute. i don't like the punishment aspect of the "cure". not to mention the ponzi scheme algore intends to use to
further enrich himself. i don't believe the problem is that bad but the opportunists are circling to take advantage of the situation, wondering
what is in it for them. how can they benefit.
that is what i see.

255 yochanan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:50:12pm

re: #229 Eowyn2

harvest the damn trees and the f**kers will not burn when they die.

256 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:50:24pm

re: #253 Syrah

Like Cap and Trade?

And health care down the worm hole?

257 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:51:09pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

And health care down the worm hole?

A One-Trillion dollar deficit?

258 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:51:13pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

Or Card Check?

259 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:51:18pm

re: #166 Occasional Reader

Yep... and, as I mentioned above, the fact that his pet doomsday scenarios always - by a remarkable coincidence - lead to a call for the same kind of solution: Monstrously huge, globalized government intrusion into personal freedom.

As opposed to the solution, "Every man for himself, and Devil take the hindmost!"?

People who are such rugged individualists, and/or well-off as to survive doomsday with no help can always opt out of aid, right? I'd like to have a choice, myself.

260 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:51:29pm

re: #167 zombie

I've been reading some of Ehrlich's recent writings, over the last hour or two. My God, he's an out-and-out moonbat, ranting on about the Iraq War and Bush as if he was a commenter at Democratic Underground.

Really? I haven't paid any attention to his recent writing. Wouldn't surprise me, though.

261 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:51:54pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

I think that's been a real shortcoming the the Republican response to the economic crisis under Obama. It's beyond anyone's imagination that Obama might save the economy so they reflexively opposed everything. They missed some serious opportunities to participate in the solutions.

Republicans don't have the numbers to do anything about it but complain and be skeptical. You want to take that from us, too? We will definitely see whether it ends soon. The current behavior of the administration and various state governments tells me it won't.

Believe me, helping someone move out of their foreclosed house keeps you from celebrating the 'dying more slowly' announcements in the media.

A better economy is good for everybody. Your disdain for all those who would criticize the Obama administration doesn't change the fact that most of us here do want what's best for this country.

262 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:52:17pm

re: #253 Syrah

Better than my answer. Upding. :D

263 DistantThunder  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:52:17pm

When he says "no longer productive" to talk about optimal population size, I take that to mean it is no longer politically productive, especially when those issues poll so poorly.

I have to use the beautiful woman test on this: Is he just saying this to my face because he wants me to like him and wants something from me?
Is there anything in his previous behavior or assertions that would support his current assertions?
What's the worst that could happen if I take him at his word and he's lying to me?

None of Obama's controversial appointees pass the beautiful woman sniff test - including Obama.

264 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:53:01pm

re: #258 Fenway_Nation

Or Card Check?

Or the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009?

Largest spending bill known to man.

265 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:53:22pm

re: #255 yochanan

harvest the damn trees and the f**kers will not burn when they die.

And if you do it to a park, it solves that nasty tourism problem, too.

266 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:53:26pm

re: #261 kynna

Republicans don't have the numbers to do anything about it but complain and be skeptical. You want to take that from us, too? We will definitely see whether it ends soon. The current behavior of the administration and various state governments tells me it won't.

Believe me, helping someone move out of their foreclosed house keeps you from celebrating the 'dying more slowly' announcements in the media.

A better economy is good for everybody. Your disdain for all those who would criticize the Obama administration doesn't change the fact that most of us here do want what's best for this country.

The only time the Obama Administration reaches it's hand out to the Republicans, it has a hatchet in it.

267 opnion  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:53:43pm

Holdren now says that what he coauthored back then, he just did not advocate forced sterilization. Funny , he did write about implanting the device & maybe allowing the female to remove it to have a baby, but then having it reimplanted. Whew,, that's a relief , since you know it is not total sreilization.
Teaming up with Paul Ehrlich was brilliant! Didn't Ehrlich say that the seas would have no aquatic life by 1980?

268 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:54:02pm

re: #264 Gus 802

Or the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009?

Largest spending bill known to man.

Or as I call it a " liberals wet dream"

269 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:54:29pm

re: #264 Gus 802

Or the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009?

Largest spending bill known to man.

It's not the size, it's how you use it.

I've heard.

270 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:54:43pm

At the very least Holdren seems to be a hothead, comfortable with draconian solutions to real or perceived threats. One would think that in the case of Global Warming cooler heads would prevail.

271 Lee Coller  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:54:51pm

re: #111 Charles

Yeah, it could have come from infowars.com -- Alex Jones jumped all over this, without crediting zombie.

Speaking of Alex Jones, did you see that KRLA is now airing his show on Sunday Evenings?

272 Erik The Red  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:55:19pm

re: #263 DistantThunder

When he says "no longer productive" to talk about optimal population size, I take that to mean it is no longer politically productive, especially when those issues poll so poorly.

I have to use the beautiful woman test on this: Is he just saying this to my face because he wants me to like him and wants something from me?
Is there anything in his previous behavior or assertions that would support his current assertions?
What's the worst that could happen if I take him at his word and he's lying to me?

None of Obama's controversial appointees pass the beautiful woman sniff test - including Obama.

Yeah all they want to do is fuck us.

273 pink freud  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:55:27pm

re: #242 Gus 802

Gus:

I wanted to toss this to you. I am snowed under right now and can't follow this at the moment, but I know you've expressed some interest in this. Here's the latest on Gore's "V-Vehicle" plant in Louisiana. Seems the car is just a blueprint but the citizens of Ouachita Parish are now being asked to vote on a tax to upgrade the facilities for this group.

"As of this very moment it appears the taxpayers of Louisiana and Ouachita Parish are about to piss away almost $100 million on a car company that is nothing more than a phone number and street address to build a car that is nothing but a drawing on a sheet of paper."

"Additionally, V Vehicle via the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program (AVTM) has applied for federal guaranteed loans of over $300 million. The U. S. Department of Energy administers the loan program. Asked if the loans were government guaranteed, Frank Varasano, CEO of the company said, “yes.”

Also see: AlGoreMobiles to be built at Monroe plant?

274 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:55:38pm

re: #253 Syrah

No, but maybe supporting TARP would have been a good idea. It might have been impractical for a politician to support it though. The conservative base would be seriously pissed.

275 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:55:44pm

re: #268 Nevergiveup

Or as I call it a " liberals wet dream"

Yeah, hence the "stimulus" provision.

Only 17% of that bill allegedly went to "jobs." The rest was typical congressional pork.

276 DistantThunder  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:55:58pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

I think that's been a real shortcoming the the Republican response to the economic crisis under Obama. It's beyond anyone's imagination that Obama might save the economy so they reflexively opposed everything. They missed some serious opportunities to participate in the solutions.

I know that in Utah, they have budgets online and average citizens go through them with a fine tooth comb, looking for things to cut. Utah is rated as the best run state in the country, in a tie with Virginia and Washinton by the Pew Research Center.

277 WinterCat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:56:22pm

Have to start dinner. It's been lovely.

278 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:56:23pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

I think it's a safe bet that the economic free fall is over with. The question remains as to what the recovery is going to look like.

It'll be wearing torn and dirty t-shirts and holding a 'will work for food' sign

279 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:56:24pm

re: #269 ShanghaiEd

re: #264 Gus 802


It's not the size, it's how you use it.

I've heard.

Apparently it's working so well that we need another stimulus.

280 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:56:33pm

re: #271 Lee Coller

Speaking of Alex Jones, did you see that KRLA is now airing his show on Sunday Evenings?

Is that a Townhall station? Ugh.

281 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:56:55pm

re: #255 yochanan

harvest the damn trees and the f**kers will not burn when they die.


sadist

/

282 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:56:55pm

re: #171 doppelganglander

No mention of zombie on Beck's TV show. He didn't delve too deeply into Holdren's work, although he did brandish a copy of "Ecoscience" from the Columbia University library. He didn't let Mark Hemingway say very much except to force Hemingway to agree with him. He got in a totally unrelated point about a company that was working on contraceptive corn in 2001 (which Holdren apparently had absolutely nothing to do with), then he moved on to the "Green Czar" who admits he became a communist after the Rodney King riots in 1992.

To be expected. Thanks for the report, in any case!

283 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:57:04pm
284 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:57:08pm

re: #216 Eowyn2

Charles is correct in
"probably as much admission as you’ll ever get from a bureaucratic scientist."

However, I agree with you. Just because Holdren has found it is no longer productive (or career enhancing) to radically tout the sterilization and zero growth strategies which were published under his name (with others) does not mean that he has changed his mind about things.

Leftists have phenomenally bad judgement. Just because Holdren had the good sense to deny/refute his earlier crazy ideas does not mean that his judgement has improved one iota.
I would not trust him or his judgment at all. But Obama clearly does.

285 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:57:52pm

re: #276 DistantThunder

I know that in Utah, they have budgets online and average citizens go through them with a fine tooth comb, looking for things to cut. Utah is rated as the best run state in the country, in a tie with Virginia and Washinton by the Pew Research Center.

Obama has plans to do that with stimulus spending. I think it's a great idea.

286 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:57:56pm

re: #275 Gus 802

Yeah, hence the "stimulus" provision.

Only 17% of that bill allegedly went to "jobs." The rest was typical congressional pork.

which will start being doled out in December and go through October 2010

287 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:58:03pm

re: #266 Nevergiveup

The only time the Obama Administration reaches it's hand out to the Republicans, it has a hatchet in it.

So far that's what we've seen.

I meant to say in my post that, because Republicans are in the back seat means Obama's policies will out. We will see what happens, because his policies will be implemented. Will Obama own failure if it comes? Doubtful.

288 Lee Coller  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:58:10pm

re: #280 Killgore Trout

Is that a Townhall station? Ugh.

Yep, Salem Broadcasting. Their weekday lineup is Bill Bennett, WSJ, Mike Gallagher, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Dennis Prager, and some Illegal Immigration all the time guy.

289 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:59:09pm

re: #273 pink freud

Gus:

I wanted to toss this to you. I am snowed under right now and can't follow this at the moment, but I know you've expressed some interest in this. Here's the latest on Gore's "V-Vehicle" plant in Louisiana. Seems the car is just a blueprint but the citizens of Ouachita Parish are now being asked to vote on a tax to upgrade the facilities for this group.

"As of this very moment it appears the taxpayers of Louisiana and Ouachita Parish are about to piss away almost $100 million on a car company that is nothing more than a phone number and street address to build a car that is nothing but a drawing on a sheet of paper."

"Additionally, V Vehicle via the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program (AVTM) has applied for federal guaranteed loans of over $300 million. The U. S. Department of Energy administers the loan program. Asked if the loans were government guaranteed, Frank Varasano, CEO of the company said, “yes.”

Also see: AlGoreMobiles to be built at Monroe plant?

Sounds like a sweetheart deal if I ever saw one.

Looks like Gov. Jindal even signed up.

[sigh]

290 calcajun  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 2:59:58pm

re: #267 opnion

Holdren now says that what he coauthored back then, he just did not advocate forced sterilization. Funny , he did write about implanting the device & maybe allowing the female to remove it to have a baby, but then having it reimplanted. Whew,, that's a relief , since you know it is not total sreilization.
Teaming up with Paul Ehrlich was brilliant! Didn't Ehrlich say that the seas would have no aquatic life by 1980?

In the words of Douglas Adams, "They're a bunch of mindless jerks who will the first against the wall when the revolution comes."

Seriously, they don't read history cause its people like the that who first get the chop when things go to hell. They're so damned preoccupied with saving humanity that they're own personal survival skills suck.

(so says the man who's doing this on company time)

291 LGoPs  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:00:41pm

re: #288 Lee Coller

Yep, Salem Broadcasting. Their weekday lineup is Bill Bennett, WSJ, Mike Gallagher, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Dennis Prager, and some Illegal Immigration all the time guy.

I love KRLA. Especially Prager.

292 yochanan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:01:37pm

re: #265 ShanghaiEd

most national forests are 3rd or 4th growth planted in streight lines just like corn just that it is harvested every 30 years or so instead of every year

the way the greens talk it is if they are cutting first growth trees and killing bmabie

and when they don't harvest the national forests you get major forest fires

293 Lincolntf  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:02:05pm

Just read this in The Boston Herald. I thought it was kinda funny, in a way. (Until the last paragraph).

Legalized it?

294 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:02:40pm

re: #273 pink freud

Gus:

I wanted to toss this to you. I am snowed under right now and can't follow this at the moment, but I know you've expressed some interest in this. Here's the latest on Gore's "V-Vehicle" plant in Louisiana. Seems the car is just a blueprint but the citizens of Ouachita Parish are now being asked to vote on a tax to upgrade the facilities for this group.

"As of this very moment it appears the taxpayers of Louisiana and Ouachita Parish are about to piss away almost $100 million on a car company that is nothing more than a phone number and street address to build a car that is nothing but a drawing on a sheet of paper."

"Additionally, V Vehicle via the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program (AVTM) has applied for federal guaranteed loans of over $300 million. The U. S. Department of Energy administers the loan program. Asked if the loans were government guaranteed, Frank Varasano, CEO of the company said, “yes.”

Also see: AlGoreMobiles to be built at Monroe plant?

how is the Fisker law suit coming along?

295 Kragar  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:03:07pm

re: #286 Eowyn2

which will start being doled out in December and go through October 2010

Just in time to stay fresh in the minds of their voting blocks back home. What are the odds on that?

/

296 yochanan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:03:16pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

and alaska is rated the freest for personal rights. the farther away from d.c. the better i guess

297 opnion  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:03:19pm

re: #290 calcajun

In the words of Douglas Adams, "They're a bunch of mindless jerks who will the first against the wall when the revolution comes."

Seriously, they don't read history cause its people like the that who first get the chop when things go to hell. They're so damned preoccupied with saving humanity that they're own personal survival skills suck.

(so says the man who's doing this on company time)

I have a problem with any person who at any time ever considered population management as an option.
THe fact that he hooked up with a raving loon like Ehrlich does tell you something.
Obama always had questionable associations & nothing has really changed.

298 jaunte  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:03:34pm

re: #273 pink freud

Also see: AlGoreMobiles to be built at Monroe plant?

“Initial production is anticipated to be 15,000 vehicles annually with pricing to start at $87,900.”

Green status symbol.

299 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:04:00pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

No, but maybe supporting TARP would have been a good idea. It might have been impractical for a politician to support it though. The conservative base would be seriously pissed.

Plenty of politicians supported TARP.

On what grounds are you citing TARP as a success?

300 opnion  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:04:21pm

re: #296 yochanan

and alaska is rated the freest for personal rights. the farther away from d.c. the better i guess


Great comment!

301 pink freud  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:04:52pm

re: #294 Eowyn2

how is the Fisker law suit coming along?

No idea. I haven't been following that one.

302 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:04:52pm

re: #292 yochanan

most national forests are 3rd or 4th growth planted in streight lines just like corn just that it is harvested every 30 years or so instead of every year

the way the greens talk it is if they are cutting first growth trees and killing bmabie

and when they don't harvest the national forests you get major forest fires

You also get pine beetle which kills the trees and makes it impossible for regrowth UNTIL a major fire blows everything apart.


I wonder if Holdren knows that one of the only ways a pinecone will open is by fire? No new growth without fire.

303 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:05:34pm

re: #298 jaunte

Also see: AlGoreMobiles to be built at Monroe plant?

“Initial production is anticipated to be 15,000 vehicles annually with pricing to start at $87,900.”

Green status symbol.

That's exactly what it is.

Fisker Automotive is a green American premium sports car company with a mission to create a range of beautiful environmentally friendly cars that make environmental sense without compromise.

Starting at $87,900.

304 Eowyn2  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:05:36pm

re: #298 jaunte

Also see: AlGoreMobiles to be built at Monroe plant?

“Initial production is anticipated to be 15,000 vehicles annually with pricing to start at $87,900.”

Green status symbol.

5 grand for down payment. non-refundable???

305 Kragar  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:05:46pm

re: #299 Syrah

Plenty of politicians supported TARP.

On what grounds are you citing TARP as a success?

Well, we certainly got rid of all that pesky money floating around.

306 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:05:47pm

re: #292 yochanan

most national forests are 3rd or 4th growth planted in streight lines just like corn just that it is harvested every 30 years or so instead of every year

the way the greens talk it is if they are cutting first growth trees and killing bmabie

and when they don't harvest the national forests you get major forest fires

National Forests are replanted, but not in straight lines. That's done on private property by paper companies.

307 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:05:49pm

re: #149 Nevergiveup

So let me get this straight. This writes something outrages 3 decades ago, but that's just old news and not anything to pay attention to now? Hum, Now let me see, it seems that what I did 3 decades ago counted when I got my security clearance from the Navy? So the rules are different for this guy why?

Odd. The initial background check for my security clearance (TS/SCI) had a 10 year limit on past records, with the single exception of felony criminal records, for which there was no limit.

But no one's saying it isn't worth paying attention to. Only that it isn't worth dwelling on. Thirty years is a long, long time, and people change; and the book in question was coauthored with two other people, with all three currently denying that they wrote the passage in question. Proving that it was written by Holdren and that Holdren currently holds such views is unlikely, at best. The worst possible outcome for Holdren puts him in a position where all he has to say is "I no longer feel that way," and the distance of time will take care of the rest.

Rather than dwell on this single passage, an examination of Holdren's entire body of work would be more fruitful if you want to show that he's incompetent to hold his position. See many posts above and in the last thread calling Holdren's scientific abilities into question, a very serious problem for someone charged with rendering scientific advice. If he can't manage to practice science himself, an advisory role in the field seems like a poor fit.

308 kansas  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:06:01pm

re: #66 MandyManners

Is AWG the new McCarthyism? Pianobuff posted this link this morning.

DISCUSSIONS about global warming are marked by an increasing desire to stamp out "impure" thinking, to the point of questioning the value of democratic debate. But shutting down discussion simply means the disappearance of reason from public policy...

After the narrow passage of the Waxman-Markey climate change bill in the US House of Representatives, Krugman said that there was no justification for a vote against it. He called virtually all of the members who voted against it "climate deniers" who were committing "treason against the planet"...

There is clearly a trend. The climate threat is so great -- and democracies are doing so little about it -- that people conclude that maybe democracy is part of the problem, and that perhaps people ought not be allowed to express heterodox opinions on such an important topic.

This is scary, although not without historical precedent. Much of the American McCarthyism of the 1940s and 50s was driven by the same burning faith in the righteousness of the mission: a faith that saw fundamental rights abrogated. We would be well served to go down a different path...

Even if every Kyoto-obligated country passed its own, duplicate Waxman-Markey bills -- which is implausible and would incur significantly higher costs -- the global reduction would amount to just 0.22C by the end of this century. The reduction in global temperature would not be measurable in 100 years, yet the cost would be significant and payable now.

Probably because its becoming clear that it is not clear.
[Link: blogs.usatoday.com...]

If Paul Krugman supports anything, I doubt it.

309 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:06:18pm

re: #296 yochanan

and alaska is rated the freest for personal rights. the farther away from d.c. the better i guess


Alaska is aslo the largest per capita recipient of stimulus money.

310 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:07:00pm

re: #299 Syrah

On what grounds are you citing TARP as a success?


We still have banks. It worked.

311 jaunte  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:07:02pm

re: #307 SixDegrees

"...all three currently denying that they wrote the passage in question."

That's funny.

312 kansas  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:07:15pm

re: #284 LGoPs

Leftists have phenomenally bad judgement. Just because Holdren had the good sense to deny/refute his earlier crazy ideas does not mean that his judgement has improved one iota.
I would not trust him or his judgment at all. But Obama clearly does.

This would apply to the Wise Latina too.

313 jcm  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:07:24pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

Obama has plans to do that with stimulus spending. I think it's a great idea.

WA?

WTF!?

Our frakkin' budget hole is just as big as CA on per capita basis. All the leg just this last session did a bunch of bullcrap skullduggery to "balance" the budget kicking the $8 billion deficit and growing down the road for 2 years.

314 jcbunga  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:07:57pm

Somewhat OT, but has anyone seen if Rosie and the other 911 troofers have noticed a tanker fire melted a freeway overpass and collapsed it onto I-75 yesterday in Detroit?

I've seen those bridges and they don't use the open trusses like the Towers. That bridge had heavy steel girders and they melted. How can this be?///

[Link: www.detroitnews.com...]

315 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:08:25pm

re: #190 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh, Joe, thanks for the smiles you bring us:

Joe Biden: ‘We Have to Go Spend Money to Keep From Going Bankrupt’

Say what?! LMFAO.

316 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:08:47pm

re: #155 buzzsawmonkey

Frankly, Charles, while the issues of forced abortion and forced sterilization are troubling (since the current "never has been" denial seems somewhat at odds with Holdren's earlier work), it is not those issues specifically that bother me. It is Holdren's self-enthrallment to the trendy doomsday scenario of the then-moment, and the lack of any indication that Holdren recognizes that said scenario was overblown at the time, or that he has learned from his enthrallment with that overblown scenario to be wary of giving himself over to the next overblown doomsday prediction. That, and his utter inability to say the few simple words, "I was wrong (or even "mistaken") for believing that," which denotes a combination of insecurity and arrogance that does not bode well even if he were such a paragon as to be on the right side of each and every issue for the rest of his life.

Yes - this is precisely the route to take if criticizing Holdren. The sterilization/forced abortion issue that people are fixating on is a non-starter, too far in the past and to uncertain as to authorship to be particularly useful except as a single datum contributing to an overall pattern of questionable associations and sloppy scientific practice.

317 Jimmah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:08:57pm

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Description misrepresented as endorsement

...Short and sweet, because honestly, there isn't much to say. This should never have been a news story in the first place. But it does reveal some disturbing strategies people use to attack academics in general, and scientists in particular. "Description misrepresented as endorsement" - that's the crux of the matter.

In the excerpts cited at zombietime.com, even the tiny snippets, it is crystal clear that these policies are being discussed in an academic sense. The blog's author is simply cherrypicking quotes and twisting them to justify a political hack job. That's not shocking - I've been around the interwebz a few times - but the Washington Times picking this up without checking further is plain bad journalism. The only reasons I can see for such sloppiness are either utter ignorance of how academic discussion works, or cynical political opportunism. I won't try to guess which.

It used to be that even in the Vatican, the Devil had his advocate. Now it seems the rules have changed: anyone who studies the Devil must worship him. Sometimes I think it's not safe for scientists to talk about anything anymore. . . !

I think a more justifiable criticism of this publication is that it was designed to be alarmist. It certainly does not endorse any of the measures described, as zombies 'updated' post still, unfortunately screams. What it does is say that the situation is serious, so serious that the following scary measures might have to be contemplated.

To me, zombie's piece ( and I do appreciate some of his/her earlier work) still looks like a hysterical freak-out. I am not the tiniest bit surprised that the NWO paranoia types are all over it.

318 opnion  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:09:18pm

re: #310 Killgore Trout

We still have banks. It worked.

Yeah, really worked, the banks still won't loosen up credit.
Maybe some just should have failed, that its capitalism.

319 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:09:23pm

re: #310 Killgore Trout

We still have banks. It worked.

Were they ALL going to fail?

I think I missed that part.

WaMu is still dead.

320 jaunte  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:09:36pm

re: #313 jcm

Keep an eye on the recovery.gov website redesign. I doubt they will be able to find the transparency button.

321 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:09:53pm

re: #309 Killgore Trout

Alaska is aslo the largest per capita recipient of stimulus money.

That map indicates that Mississippi and North Dakota has the highest stimulus spending per capita. See the color bar at the bottom? The deeper the red the higher the spending per capita.

322 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:10:11pm

re: #313 jcm

I was referring to the plan to make all the grants public information posted in the web.

323 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:10:32pm

re: #311 jaunte

"...all three currently denying that they wrote the passage in question."

That's funny.

I agree. They're all pointing fingers at one another.

324 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:10:47pm

re: #317 Jimmah

Did you catch the discussion of that article in the previous thread?

325 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:10:48pm

re: #317 Jimmah

See comment #44 on that thread -- from me to the author of the piece.

326 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:11:14pm

re: #321 Gus 802

You need to scroll through the various tabs.

327 Dianna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:11:37pm

re: #319 Syrah

Were they ALL going to fail?

I think I missed that part.

WaMu is still dead.

Now, now! It's just been taken over by Chase! A new bank for California!

328 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:11:47pm

On the subject of Sotomayor, I found this to be of interest today:

Prodded by Specter to weigh in on televising Supreme Court proceedings — a cause he has long championed — Sotomayor suggested she might be an ally on the issue.

"My experience has generally been positive," she said, noting that cameras had been allowed in her courtroom as part of a pilot program.

Asked if she would encourage the other justices to allow cameras into the high court, she said, "I would certainly relay my experiences."

Justice David Souter has long opposed televising the court's sessions, but his retirement opened the way for her appointment, and possibly a change in the no-camera rule.

329 Gus  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:12:53pm

re: #326 Killgore Trout

You need to scroll through the various tabs.

Well tie me to a pig and roll me in the mud. ;)

OK, you may be right.

I'm hungry. BBL folks.

330 opnion  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:12:56pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I was referring to the plan to make all the grants public information posted in the web.

And what about the plan to post proposed legislation on the web, you know transparency. Heck, BHO doesn't even want Congress to read bills before they vote, but I'm sure that he means it now

331 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:13:08pm
332 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:13:25pm

re: #314 jcbunga

Somewhat OT, but has anyone seen if Rosie and the other 911 troofers have noticed a tanker fire melted a freeway overpass and collapsed it onto I-75 yesterday in Detroit?

I've seen those bridges and they don't use the open trusses like the Towers. That bridge had heavy steel girders and they melted. How can this be?///

[Link: www.detroitnews.com...]

Well, they don't actually melt. But structural steel loses something like 80% of it's strength when heated to fairly low temperatures, like those found here and in other fuel fires. At that point, they bend, twist, snap and have all the structural integrity of pretzel rods.

But melting, not so much. That takes a great deal more heat.

333 doppelganglander  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:16:26pm

re: #293 Lincolntf

Just read this in The Boston Herald. I thought it was kinda funny, in a way. (Until the last paragraph).

Legalized it?

Holy crap. I can't believe they couldn't arrest the perv on something.

334 jcm  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:17:13pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I was referring to the plan to make all the grants public information posted in the web.

Ahh!

My response was to PEW's grade...

335 Jimmah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:19:25pm

re: #325 zombie

See comment #44 on that thread -- from me to the author of the piece.

Zombie - you don't address the meat of Palmer's objection there, which is:

Description misrepresented as endorsement

336 Conservative Moonbat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:22:06pm

I haven't read this entire thread but Holdren et al.'s methods for dealing with a critical overpopulation scenario are fairly consistent with other science fiction tropes. You've only got a few options, minimizing the number of births, capping the max life span, a la Logan's Run, culling the population by means of random lotteries, or leaving things alone and let society crumble as people starve by the millions and dead bodies pile up in the streets faster than any sanitation services can deal with them.

What's the preferred conservative solution? Asking for volunteers to commit suicide might get a few volunteers but likely not enough to put a dent in the problem.

I dabble in writing science fiction and that's the lense through which I've seen this whole brouhaha.

If Holdren's solution is unacceptable, what's the preferable one?

337 jcm  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:23:06pm

re: #332 SixDegrees

Well, they don't actually melt. But structural steel loses something like 80% of it's strength when heated to fairly low temperatures, like those found here and in other fuel fires. At that point, they bend, twist, snap and have all the structural integrity of pretzel rods.

But melting, not so much. That takes a great deal more heat.

I have pictures I took of the steel beams in a school library after a fire.

The beams start on top of the wall and in the middle of the room are touching the floor. That fire an ordinary fire fueled by books and other typical office / library stuff.

Beams that became the consistency of taffy in an ordinary fire, no jet fuel added.

338 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:26:22pm

re: #331 buzzsawmonkey

Gives a whole new meaning to "hearings in camera," doesn't it?

Buzz: Good one.

339 Seax  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:28:18pm

OK - the guy is a politican now -so he will say anything to
save his job.The bit that is worrying to me is that he and the co-authors were happy enough to put it in a "encyclopedic textbook" - and that text book was used as education.When I was being
"educated" about a "third of a century" ago we were shown films and given text books that gave the 'truth' that we were all going to die in the upcoming "Population Bomb".
"Oops" said the educators and scientists we got it wrong - my imminant distruction was from the actual Nuclear bomb - so out came the books,films,etc etc.In my wife's years in the higher education fields - they said "You're going to die in the soon coming ice age"- books etc etc etc.
Now they're teaching my kids that they are going to die in the upcoming 'Global Warming" - oh look here come the films and text books etc etc etc.
John Holdren is in the white house now - so I salute him and commend him for his rentless drive to attain the top of his chosen profession.
I stand at attention ...
...and raise my middle finger and say "F**K you sir!!!"

340 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:30:01pm

re: #335 Jimmah

Zombie - you don't address the meat of Palmer's objection there, which is:

Description misrepresented as endorsement

To that charge, please refer to my comment #12 above. He describes all the possible options, then starts saying that the milder options probably won't work. It's kind of a backhanded way of endorsing-without-overtly-endorsing.

341 jcm  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:30:08pm

re: #337 jcm

I have pictures I took of the steel beams in a school library after a fire.

The beams start on top of the wall and in the middle of the room are touching the floor. That fire an ordinary fire fueled by books and other typical office / library stuff.

Beams that became the consistency of taffy in an ordinary fire, no jet fuel added.

Great picture of steel beams after a fire.

342 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:30:24pm

re: #190 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh, Joe, thanks for the smiles you bring us:

Joe Biden: ‘We Have to Go Spend Money to Keep From Going Bankrupt’

His suggestions for losing weight must be equally hilarious.

343 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:33:45pm

re: #336 Conservative Moonbat

If Holdren's solution is unacceptable, what's the preferable one?

Holdren's solution is based on faulty premise.

While over population is a legitimate concern, it is not something that requires a panicked solution. It may even be an issue that does not require a planed solution at all, with population trends in industrialized nations trending downward to or even below replacement rates without any of Holdren's solutions major or minor, being put into place.

"solutions" that result mostly in the concentration of power into hands politicians and bureaucrats is more often then not always the wrong solution.

344 arromdee  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:34:39pm

Much of this "renunciation" consists of "I never said that". That's not a renunciation; it's a denial. The idea that he was just describing a situation falls apart when you look at some of the things he said--for instance, claiming that forced abortions are consistent with the Constitution is a statement which is independent of any specific situation.

And the earlier statement about "I don't think it's productive" is classic weasel wording. He's not saying he doesn't believe it, he just says he doesn't want to discuss it and that discussing it gets people mad.

345 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:36:59pm

re: #298 jaunte

Also see: AlGoreMobiles to be built at Monroe plant?

“Initial production is anticipated to be 15,000 vehicles annually with pricing to start at $87,900.”

Green status symbol.

i have a friend in the music business who recently bought some kind of put-put green status mobile. he really only did it because he wanted kudos for being an aware, p.c. mogul.

i told him abt. the red '67 mustang i'd seen for sale w/ the white rag top.
i told him that it would suit him so perfectly, he looked at me w/ such pain on his face, i thought he was going to cry.

346 Deseeded  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:37:24pm

Ok, cool. As a young strapping 30 year old, I will publish a book with a member of an ecoterrorist group and a "real" terrorist from Palestine. Together we will write about population control by murdering all blonde-haired blue-eyed devils to "control" populations.

Over the next thirty years I will publish two papers which advocate against killing all blonde-hair blue-eyed devils. If you believe me after those two rather short

347 Deseeded  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:39:12pm

Hahaha! Cut off!

Anyways, bottomline. Don't believe me, I'm lying to you to make you feel comfortable that I really don't believe in murdering people to make sure my "piece of the pie" stays warm and comes with whipped cream.

348 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:39:59pm

re: #337 jcm

I have pictures I took of the steel beams in a school library after a fire.

The beams start on top of the wall and in the middle of the room are touching the floor. That fire an ordinary fire fueled by books and other typical office / library stuff.

Beams that became the consistency of taffy in an ordinary fire, no jet fuel added.

I think we have a terminology problem here. Yes, the steel softens - like I said, it loses most of it's structural strength at fairly low temperatures. But it doesn't melt, in the sense that it enters a liquid phase. This is the core of the troofer's argument - they look up the melting point of steel, see that it is far beyond the temperature any building fire can produce, and screech, "See!? See!? The WTC building melted, so something else was involved!!!" This is utter bullshit; the loss of structural strength weakens the beams to the point where they are easily bent by the load they bear, and the collapse is expected under the circumstances at WTC. But actual melting isn't involved.

Sorry if this seems pedantic, but it bothers me that the troofers are simply lying about physics when making this claim, and willfully disregard what actually happened because it falls well within the dull realm of reality.

349 jaunte  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:40:21pm

re: #345 nyc redneck

He just needs to be more logically flexible. I know someone who drives a 10 cylinder BMW, but he gives himself green kudos for using recycled paper padding in his FedEx boxes.

350 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:41:02pm

And on the law-and-order front, one of Pat Robertson's associates faces a molestation charge:

Pastor's Excuse For Molesting 13-Year-Old: "She Was A Big Girl"

Pull quote:

...Through "God's grace at work," Senyonga was able to build a congregation in Kampala, Uganda, up from seven to 2,000 people in just two weeks. His ministry continued to grow as Senyonga installed 1,000 churches in four countries, and eventually, according to his bio, he started hanging around in the U.S. with governors, senators, mayors, and spiritual leaders, including Pat Robertson.

351 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:41:35pm

re: #347 Deseeded

Hahaha! Cut off!

Anyways, bottomline. Don't believe me, I'm lying to you to make you feel comfortable that I really don't believe in murdering people to make sure my "piece of the pie" stays warm and comes with whipped cream.

There's nothing in Ecoscience about "murdering people."

352 Deseeded  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:45:44pm

re: #351 Charles

There's nothing in Ecoscience about "murdering people."

Indeed. However, it comes full circle to that whole "is it a person or not a person thing". I was using "murder" as an allegory. They promoted forced abortion.

353 Conservative Moonbat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:46:52pm

re: #343 Syrah

Holdren's solution is based on faulty premise.

While over population is a legitimate concern, it is not something that requires a panicked solution. It may even be an issue that does not require a planed solution at all, with population trends in industrialized nations trending downward to or even below replacement rates without any of Holdren's solutions major or minor, being put into place.

"solutions" that result mostly in the concentration of power into hands politicians and bureaucrats is more often then not always the wrong solution.

Faulty though his premise may be, it's the one he was operating under. Taking his Hollywood doomsday scenario as the reality we've got to work with, what's the preferred conservative response?

To the best of his information his premise was valid it was that from which he drew his conclusions.

The DOD employs science fiction writers to think up doomsday scenarios and solutions to them and some of the stuff I've heard of them coming up with is pretty far out. It's only natural for civilian scientists to make similar conjectures based on what information they presently hold as valid.

354 avanti  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:49:36pm

re: #317 Jimmah

To me, zombie's piece ( and I do appreciate some of his/her earlier work) still looks like a hysterical freak-out. I am not the tiniest bit surprised that the NWO paranoia types are all over it.

I tend to agree. Discussing hypothetical solutions for a solution to a dooms day scenario is not necessarily a endorsement of the solutions. Most of what I read were solutions proposed that were examples of more reasonable picks rather then waiting until forced population control would be the only soultion.
It's as if I had to write a scholarly paper on who to chose for a 1000 person space life raft in the event of the earths destruction and my choices were not PC across the population demographics. i.e. more engineers then African bushmen, more doctors, then accountants, more young then old, more women then men.

355 Conservative Moonbat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:50:08pm

re: #344 arromdee

Much of this "renunciation" consists of "I never said that". That's not a renunciation; it's a denial. The idea that he was just describing a situation falls apart when you look at some of the things he said--for instance, claiming that forced abortions are consistent with the Constitution is a statement which is independent of any specific situation.
.

I think we'd see the imposition of martial law if not the total failure of Democratic government before it ever reached the stage he's describing. Society would be on the brink on anarchy. Such things could only happen under a totalitarian government and conditions on the ground would have to be so bad that people would welcome it.

356 Pianobuff  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:50:46pm

re: #353 Conservative Moonbat

Faulty though his premise may be, it's the one he was operating under. Taking his Hollywood doomsday scenario as the reality we've got to work with, what's the preferred conservative response?

To the best of his information his premise was valid it was that from which he drew his conclusions.

The DOD employs science fiction writers to think up doomsday scenarios and solutions to them and some of the stuff I've heard of them coming up with is pretty far out. It's only natural for civilian scientists to make similar conjectures based on what information they presently hold as valid.

He also thinks our missile defense system is a fraud.

357 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:52:00pm
358 Deseeded  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:52:53pm

I guess I just keep looking at China as an example of "population control". The wealthiest can have as many as they want. The poor get one...better be a boy. That sort of stuff just doesn't sit well with me.

359 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:53:54pm

re: #351 Charles

There's nothing in Ecoscience about "murdering people."

Also, thirty years is a long, long time. Thirty years ago I believed all kinds of things that seem childish, stupid, goofy and downright appalling when I think of them now.

It's an eye-catching passage, but it's relevance to the present is questionable, at best. It's out there for people to consider; fixating on it to the exclusion of Holdren's history of work and more recent views, and endlessly flogging it to the exclusion of anything else, is intellectually lazy and politically counterproductive.

Examine Holdren's entire body of work and see what patterns emerge from it. I believe there are lots of things that will not be so easily dismissed, particularly regarding his capabilities as a scientist, which goes directly to his qualifications to hold his current position. The sterilization/forced abortion thing will get the anti-abortionists all excited, but it isn't going to move anyone else. It will immediately be dismissed as yet another hallucination of the far-Right religious kook squad; it's almost ready-made for them, and for such dismissal.

360 Conservative Moonbat  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:55:14pm

re: #356 Pianobuff

He also thinks our missile defense system is a fraud.

What's that have to do with anything? He's not even in a defense related position.

361 Jimmah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:58:20pm

re: #340 zombie

To that charge, please refer to my comment #12 above. He describes all the possible options, then starts saying that the milder options probably won't work. It's kind of a backhanded way of endorsing-without-overtly-endorsing.

That's not endorsement. One could view such a measure as effective but absolutely outrageous, the point being to scare people into taking measures now to avoid such scenarios in future. One can take issue with the alarmism, but to say that this constitutes endorsement of the most extreme measures described is a distortion.

Remember, your post is headed, quite simply:

John Holdren, Obama's Science Czar, says: Forced abortions and mass sterilization needed to save the planet

Book he authored in 1977 advocates for extreme totalitarian measures to control the population

362 Pianobuff  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:58:55pm

re: #360 Conservative Moonbat

What's that have to do with anything? He's not even in a defense related position.

As technology advisor, I would suspect he can take a pretty wide view of things, and given his past vehemence on nuke elimination I would be surprised if he didn't.

363 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 3:59:38pm

re: #336 Conservative Moonbat

I haven't read this entire thread but Holdren et al.'s methods for dealing with a critical overpopulation scenario are fairly consistent with other science fiction tropes. You've only got a few options, minimizing the number of births, capping the max life span, a la Logan's Run, culling the population by means of random lotteries, or leaving things alone and let society crumble as people starve by the millions and dead bodies pile up in the streets faster than any sanitation services can deal with them.

What's the preferred conservative solution? Asking for volunteers to commit suicide might get a few volunteers but likely not enough to put a dent in the problem.

I dabble in writing science fiction and that's the lense through which I've seen this whole brouhaha.

If Holdren's solution is unacceptable, what's the preferable one?

Western nations with some free market success are tending to have the opposite of the 'population bomb'. In fact, the fear is that people aren't having enough children to be productive enough to take care of the elderly.

So, I'd say, help the world to embrace the free market economy and freedom of lifestyle. The choice will be to have fewer children. Support women's rights throughout the world and women will lower the birth rate themselves.

You don't have to coerce or mandate anything but freedom. At least, that's how the trends in the west are operating right now.

Admittedly that doesn't make for an incredible Sci Fi scenario, but it's one that seems to fit reality.

364 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:00:02pm

re: #352 Deseeded

Indeed. However, it comes full circle to that whole "is it a person or not a person thing". I was using "murder" as an allegory. They promoted forced abortion.

Promoted forced abortion? I don't think so:

Promote, v. t. [L. promotus, p. p. of promovere to move forward, to promote; pro forward + movere to move. See Move.]

1. To contribute to the growth, enlargement, or prosperity of (any process or thing that is in course); to forward; to further; to encourage; to advance; to excite; as, to promote learning; to promote disorder; to promote a business venture. ``Born to promote all truth.'' --Milton.

2. To exalt in station, rank, or honor; to elevate; to raise; to prefer; to advance; as, to promote an officer.

Syn: To forward; advance; further; patronize; help; exalt; prefer; elevate; dignify.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

365 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:00:45pm

re: #362 Pianobuff

As technology advisor, I would suspect he can take a pretty wide view of things, and given his past vehemence on nuke elimination I would be surprised if he didn't.

It strikes me that as a population control zealot, he'd be in favor of nuclear proliferation.

366 Pianobuff  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:02:35pm

re: #365 SixDegrees

It strikes me that as a population control zealot, he'd be in favor of nuclear proliferation.

Or for that matter drastic global warming...heh.

Nah, he's against anything that starts with "nuc", including energy if I remember correctly.

367 Deseeded  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:04:23pm

re: #364 ShanghaiEd

Not sure saying that nothing short of doing it would work isn't promoting the idea.

On another note: I have to go play v-ball. Hope to be back in a few hours! I love the cool-headed debating! It never feels like people screaming at each other here. Chat with you all in a bit!

Wish me luck, I'm filling in on an aging team that can't jump! :)

368 Duane  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:06:28pm

If he wrote a book about Creationism and "32 years later, he doesn’t endorse or recommend the ideas in it", methinks you wouldn't be as quick to let it slide.

And for the record, I am a Catholic that believes in Evolution and the consumption of Jack Daniels, unlike some Southern Baptist types. Sometimes though, Charles, you just kill the Creationism topic.

369 ShanghaiEd  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:08:38pm

re: #367 Deseeded

Not sure saying that nothing short of doing it would work isn't promoting the idea.

On another note: I have to go play v-ball. Hope to be back in a few hours! I love the cool-headed debating! It never feels like people screaming at each other here. Chat with you all in a bit!

Wish me luck, I'm filling in on an aging team that can't jump! :)

Good luck, D: I know from personal experience that old guys can jump.

Just not as far.

370 1SG(ret)  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:09:06pm

re: #360 Conservative Moonbat
He is the Science Advisor.
I guess Science has nothing to do with Defense Systems! Thunk... Darn my head hurts!

371 Jimmah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:24:58pm

Just my opinion, but in all honesty I think you need to throw away that post heading, zombie. A substantial re-write of the post itself is also in order.

372 ladycatnip  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:28:32pm

All I can say about this nut-job leftist wacko is if a conservative had written this crap back in the 1970's, and he was in the process of being appointed by the WH to a position of Czar, he'd be run out of D.C. on a rail - after he was tarred and feathered by the press.

373 realwest  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:30:16pm

re: #340 zombie
Hey zombie - quick question for you (I know you'll know the answer!) when was Prarie Fire written by Bill Ayers?

374 realwest  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:37:04pm

re: #371 Jimmah
Why do you say that Jimmah? I read zom's piece all the way through and there was no "Glenn Beck" sense to it, no Ron Paul sense to it; indeed I thought Zombie merely wrote the facts as they were.
That he now - as he's about to be appointed to a politically sensitive postion sorta unendoresed the ideas which zombie exposed isn't, in my opinion, all that reassuring.
So what are you saying: that zombie lied? Deliberately distorted the truth? And, btw, where are all of the dozens of publications he's supposedly written which retract his 30+ year old writings?

375 Jimmah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:40:54pm

re: #374 realwest

I'm not accusing anyone of lying, rather I think zombie has got this wrong. I've given my reasons in the posts above.

376 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:41:20pm

re: #368 Duane

If he wrote a book about Creationism and "32 years later, he doesn’t endorse or recommend the ideas in it", methinks you wouldn't be as quick to let it slide.

Difficult to say. As the old saying goes, "A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged." Sometimes, ideological converts are the most ardent supporters of their newfound position.

More telling, in this case, would be the body of work showing the person's entire history of thought. A single statement from the distant past isn't particularly compelling; thirty years worth of sloppy application of scientific principles, on the other hand, very well may be.

377 ladycatnip  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:44:02pm

#371 Jimmah

Just my opinion, but in all honesty I think you need to throw away that post heading, zombie. A substantial re-write of the post itself is also in order.

You're joking, right?

Indeed, it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society.

What part of that needs to be re-written?

Somewhat more repressive measures for discouraging large families have also been proposed, such as assigning public housing without regard for family size and removing dependency allowances from student grants or military pay. Some of these have been implemented in crowded Singapore, whose population program has been counted as one of the most successful.

Adding a sterilant to drinking water or staple foods is a suggestion that seems to horrify people more than most proposals for involuntary fertility control. Indeed, this would pose some very difficult political, legal, and social questions, to say nothing of the technical problems...

[now he reverses himself] The third approach to population limitation is that of involuntary fertility control. Several coercive proposals deserve discussion, mainly because some countries may ultimately have to resort to them unless current trends in birthrates are rapidly reversed by other means. Some involuntary measures could be less repressive or discriminatory, in fact, than some of the socioeconomic measure suggested.

That this guy is even talking about this is beyond the pale. Totalitarianism at its worst and most evil.

378 SixDegrees  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:57:08pm

re: #377 ladycatnip

#371 Jimmah

That this guy is even talking about this is beyond the pale. Totalitarianism at its worst and most evil.

Is he advocating, or is he reporting? I believe that's what jimmah is questioning. There's a big difference.

A more important question is: why would someone who claims to be a scientist believe the dire predictions and concocted scenarios presented in Ecoscience, when even an undergraduate student would realize the models used to predict such outcomes were tremendously flawed to the point of being worthless? And, allowing for the possibility of youthful indiscretion and exuberance, does Holdren's work over the last several decades show a pattern of latching on to implausible theories for the sake of ideology, throwing scientific process to the winds of political expediency? These are the important questions that ought to be addressed in evaluating his current competence to hold his position.

379 Jimmah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:57:24pm

re: #377 ladycatnip

No I am not joking. None of that adds up to endorsement. Discussion of extreme options on the table in an apparently far fetched crisis scenario could be called alarmism, but is certainly not endorsement.

380 anchors_aweigh  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:00:24pm
Now that Holdren has addressed the book specifically, and made it clear that, 32 years later, he doesn’t endorse or recommend the ideas in it, there’s not much more to say.

Move along. Nothing to see here folks.

381 anchors_aweigh  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:04:43pm

re: #360 Conservative Moonbat

What's that have to do with anything? He's not even in a defense related position.

It's indicates consciousness of moonbattery.

382 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:07:45pm

re: #379 Jimmah

No I am not joking. None of that adds up to endorsement. Discussion of extreme options on the table in an apparently far fetched crisis scenario could be called alarmism, but is certainly not endorsement.

My take on that is here.

re: #54 Sharmuta
There's a distinction is discussing extreme measures and advocating them. Just because you and I have discussed the extremes of fascism in the past doesn't mean either of us advocate them or embrace them.

When you discuss fascism, the disapproval is obvious. I don't think that applies to Holdren's discussions about means of population control.

383 kynna  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:19:33pm

re: #309 Killgore Trout

Alaska is aslo the largest per capita recipient of stimulus money.

Do you think they're getting more back than they put in? It was their money to begin with.

So ... do you think Alaska is getting someone else's money back? Or is that stimulus money their own to begin with? When the feds issue veiled threats to the governor of Arizona because Senator Kyl made the statement the stimulus should be canceled rather than push through a new one, were they threatening to defund projects they were already taxing Arizonans to pay for or was this stimulus funding from the magic money tree?

Where do you think the stimulus money is coming from?

384 Jimmah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:19:47pm

re: #382 wrenchwench

This is a scientific paper which deals with humanity at a strategic level - it is normal for such publications to refrain from emoting or taking moral stances - it's standard academic fare from that point of view. Knowing what the Ehrlics were saying back then, it's clear that the purpose of this publication was to scare people into taking steps to avoid ending up in a situation where such horrible measures would have to be contemplated, not to make forced sterilizations etc acceptable.

385 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:26:33pm

re: #382 wrenchwench

I still think this is astroturfing.

386 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:30:25pm

re: #384 Jimmah

it's clear that the purpose of this publication was to scare people into taking steps to avoid ending up in a situation where such horrible measures would have to be contemplated

And the way they scare people into taking such steps is by contemplating horrible measures. It was wrong then, and he has disavowed it now. You seem to have clung to it more than Holdren has.

387 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:31:44pm

re: #385 Sharmuta

I still think this is astroturfing.

I think I know what astroturfing is, but I'm not sure how you are applying it here. Are you saying zombie is astroturfing?

388 jaunte  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:35:15pm

Stand on Zanzibar.
Interesting factoid here from William Fischel's 1985 book The Economics of Zoning Laws: A Property Rights Approach to American Land Use Controls:
Divide the current population of the U.S. into households of 4 persons, and house them at the "suburban sprawl" density of one acre per household.
What percentage of the total land area of the contiguous 48 states would be taken up?
His students' answers range from 10% to 70%, with 30% a frequent median guess, but the real answer is about 3%.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

389 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:38:13pm

I'll catch any responses tomorrow.

G'nite!

390 Jimmah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:40:22pm

re: #386 wrenchwench

And the way they scare people into taking such steps is by contemplating horrible measures. It was wrong then, and he has disavowed it now. You seem to have clung to it more than Holdren has.

All I have been saying here is that the real issue here is alarmism, not advocacy of extreme measures, and what you just said seems to acknowledge that (while mistakenly assuming that I am pro-alarmist).

391 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:47:03pm

re: #387 wrenchwench

I've seen other people get cherry picked and have their comments completely distorted. Take the previous example of Yooper and I discussing fascism. While you might find it obvious that he and I find fascism to be odious, it might be your perception of the two of us that allows it, while an outsider might see something they can distort. In other words, your preconceptions are coloring how you view the cherry picked comments.

This is a mole hill that's been distorted to a mountain and is now kook fodder.

392 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 6:05:46pm

Maybe it's the Art of cherry picking, or maybe it's the consequences of ridiculing excuses for comments by citing things such as context, so that now when "context" is mentioned it's dismissed as having no bearing on the meaning of the cherry picked statement. I think context does matter. It was a comment about a hypothetical situation.

I don't like the left cherry picking and I don't think it's a good strategy for the right to follow either. This sets a bad precedent. Not only does it lower the discourse, it's a double edge sword and I don't find it to be intellectually honest.

393 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 6:34:26pm

re: #368 Duane

If he wrote a book about Creationism and "32 years later, he doesn’t endorse or recommend the ideas in it", methinks you wouldn't be as quick to let it slide.

Actually, if he had written a book advocating creationism 32 years ago, and renounced it today in the same unequivocal terms as he renounced the ideas in Ecoscience, I'd be giving him a big thumbs-up.

394 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 7:41:31pm

re: #371 Jimmah

Just my opinion, but in all honesty I think you need to throw away that post heading, zombie. A substantial re-write of the post itself is also in order.

Better yet, create your own headline and post! Why wait for me to do it?

395 zombie  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 7:42:02pm

re: #373 realwest

Hey zombie - quick question for you (I know you'll know the answer!) when was Prarie Fire written by Bill Ayers?

1975

396 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 8:46:14pm

re: #353 Conservative Moonbat

Faulty though his premise may be, it's the one he was operating under. Taking his Hollywood doomsday scenario as the reality we've got to work with, what's the preferred conservative response?

To the best of his information his premise was valid it was that from which he drew his conclusions.

The DOD employs science fiction writers to think up doomsday scenarios and solutions to them and some of the stuff I've heard of them coming up with is pretty far out. It's only natural for civilian scientists to make similar conjectures based on what information they presently hold as valid.

There is an solution that works that does not require any draconian measures, no forced or surreptitious sterilizations, no government enforced "one child" policies, nothing of that sort at all.

Free market capitalism.

Unfortunately, this will lack appeal to those that want a "planed" (read "compulsory") solution.

397 Steffan  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 8:47:08pm

I distinctly remember Paul Erlich's "Population Bomb" theatrics in the early '70s.

My high school had an "Ecology Seminar" in early '70. I was one of the delegates.

To be honest, I don't have a frickin' clue why I was included -- unless it's because of a short essay I dropped on the biology teacher (I was not taking biology at the time).

As it happened, a very good friend of my sister was also included, and we buddied up. Remarkably nice of her, considering that she was a junior and I was a freshman.

398 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 8:59:06pm

re: #85 Charles

He's right about one point -- Exxon has funded think tanks and organizations devoted to propagandizing against climate change theories.

And why shouldn't they? If you had a batch of crazies agitating to shut down bloggers, wouldn't you make an effort to discredit them?

399 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 9:05:35pm

re: #396 Syrah

There is an solution that works that does not require any draconian measures, no forced or surreptitious sterilizations, no government enforced "one child" policies, nothing of that sort at all.

Free market capitalism.

Unfortunately, this will lack appeal to those that want a "planed" (read "compulsory") solution.

The constrained system designed by the Founders should certainly be protected from those who would use unegalitarian means to reach their egalitarian ends.

But more than capitalism is science itself. The evolution of diseases will keep the population in check, as well as other factors like war or famine. This text book was written before AIDS- which has shown it's quite capable of thinning the human heard. I feel confident that despite whatever advancements in medicine come along, diseases will continue to adapt to new pressures in their role in Life.

(And in 30 years someone can take this comment and call me pro-death.)

400 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 9:06:21pm

"When he says, “I no longer think it’s productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum population of the United States,” that does bear on the issue, since the idea of “optimum population” was behind Ecoscience’s draconian recommendations. When he says he thinks it’s “no longer productive,” that would very likely be his answer if asked directly about the book, too. It’s an admission that he has changed his opinions on those issues — probably as much admission as you’ll ever get from a bureaucratic scientist."

That's a pretty mealy-mouthed renunciation, if you ask me. It's not a flat-out lie; he is probably being truthful when he says it's no longer productive, simply because he's come to understand that advocating for forced population control is politically unpalatable to most everyone. He now knows that such an agenda is best kept hidden, that's all there is to it.

I wouldn't trust him with the keys to the third-class washroom.

401 shortshrift  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 9:21:36pm

re: #384 Jimmah

"This is a scientific paper which deals with humanity at a strategic level - it is normal for such publications to refrain from emoting or taking moral stances..."

Which science deals with humanity at a strategic level? Epidemiology, perhaps. Yes, vaccination is a good thing. In every other case I can think of science has been horribly abused and distorted in order to "deal with humanity at a strategic level". Soviet socialism was scientific ( according to materialism political dissent was considered a mental illness, cured by sulphur injections ). Chinese demographers brought about forced abortions (and female infanticide). Nazi biologist and doctors conducted horrifying experiments, forced sterilizations for eugenics. Ecology is being abused by those who advocate letting humanity die out. Physics and computer science are being abused to strangle free enterprise. Economics, psychology and sociology are perfect handmaidens to politics and can put forward a "scientific" rationale for any totalitarian strategy for humanity. The very idea of "dealing with humanity at a strategic level" is inherently totalitarian. Who the hell are these people who write text books doing this? Their thought experiments can turn into nasty facts.

402 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 9:40:18pm

re: #399 Sharmuta

The constrained system designed by the Founders should certainly be protected from those who would use unegalitarian means to reach their egalitarian ends.

But more than capitalism is science itself. The evolution of diseases will keep the population in check, as well as other factors like war or famine. This text book was written before AIDS- which has shown it's quite capable of thinning the human heard. I feel confident that despite whatever advancements in medicine come along, diseases will continue to adapt to new pressures in their role in Life.

(And in 30 years someone can take this comment and call me pro-death.)

Disease will always be with us. It can make significant changes to populations.

We know from history that outbreaks have occurred that have wiped out large numbers of people. We know that with our current methods of travel, diseases that once would have taken years to spread across a continent can spread all across the globe within a single day.

The current concern and tracking of the recent outbreak of swine-flu is a case in point. While Swine-flu is not as deadly as many other past flu-strains, it is notable for the speed that it spread. (Thank cheap air-travel and dense city centers.)

If there were to be a future out break of a disease that was as contagious as the swine-flu which was also as deadly as the Spanish-flu of old, there would be panic. The panic would likely prove to be nearly as deadly as the flu itself.

Your point is valid. Sh*t happens. Try as we might to prevent it, something nasty will do something very ugly. Epidemiologist know that it is not a question of "if," but of "when."

-

The unconstrained seek a solution.

The unconstrained cannot bare the thought of letting a process muddle along without tight controls guided by an elite hand.

The constrained trust in process.

The constrained are distrustful of anyone that offers "solutions" especially if those solutions are disruptive.

Holdren is unconstrained. He could be a poster child for the unconstrained.

From one crisis to the next, he is consistent in that he seeks solutions that will require government compulsory powers to implement.

Can we tell from Holdren's writings and associations what limits he will feel bound by should he have the power of a real Czar?

403 Wendya  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 10:20:53pm

Holdren could disavow this by apologizing for ever making the suggestion that forced sterilization and/or abortions could be mandated by the government as a legal and constitutional remedy to "overpopulation" but he didn't. Instead, his spokesman claimed he never supported the very ideas he proposed in Ecoscience.

I see no reason to bend over backwards and practice mental gymnastics to excuse something of this nature.

404 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 10:38:49pm

re: #402 Syrah

I don't disagree with your assessment. Authoritarianism, manifested in whatever vision, should be refuted with sound constrained arguments.

405 Syrah  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 10:48:35pm

re: #404 Sharmuta

I don't disagree with your assessment. Authoritarianism, manifested in whatever vision, should be refuted with sound constrained arguments.

I just thought I would add. . .

This whole "Czar" phenomena is really appalling.

I think it reflects the unconstrained's desires for an authoritarian approach to our nations problems. That they would appoint so many suggest that they have little restraint in what they think Czarist powers should be applied to or at the least yearned for.

That the public seem to accept it all so readily without much resistance or even comment is unnerving.

406 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 11:10:52pm

re: #405 Syrah

The entire phenomenon is unconstrained- an "expert" to help the elite. I would think if any president wanted input from expert, outside advisers, he'd have the influence to call such people to his side.

407 shortshrift  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 11:12:02pm

re: #403 Wendya

And, in reply to Charles at #5, renunciation must be in the first person.

408 amir  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 11:18:55pm

"I no longer think it’s productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum population of the United States"

Why not!

It's a very important subject. How can anybody intelligent think that population size is not important? Or the sructure of the population. There are other ways of influencing population size other than influencing birthrates. Such as controlling immigration.

409 shortshrift  Thu, Jul 16, 2009 11:24:28pm

re: #408 amir

What on earth would be an optimum population size or mix? Immigration is already controlled - sort of - by total number and quota for national origin. Which people do you prefer and how many of them would you like to see immigrate to the US?

410 amir  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 1:33:43am

re: #409 shortshrift

I don't have a specific answer to your question of what an optimum population size would be because I haven't studied the subject (though I did read the Population Bomb about 25 years ago). I'm merely pointing out that it's an important subject that the government needs to address. The fact that, as you point out, there are quotas for immigration is further proof that this is a subject that needs to be addressed.
Imagine if someone had said: "I no longer think it’s productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum budget of the United States" as a way of avoiding talking about a sensitive issue. It would be absurd. And yet I don't know what the optimum budget should be, certainly there is an optimum budget.
As far as the question about the type of immigrants, I think the US should prefer people that share American values and appreciate its culture, are well educated and healthy. My parents immigrated to the US. I think they fall into that category.It should also allow a number of immigrants for humanitarian/political reasons. The exact number, I don't know.

411 themaninthestripedsuit  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 5:39:11am

So why did he leave it on his CV at Woods Hole. Has he published anything contrary to Ecoscience?

412 mrkwong  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 8:03:22am

It's not important because he's been told to ixnay on the opulation-pay omb-bay.

The problem with Ecoscience and much of what comes out of the man's mouth is that it bespeaks an approach to science, one pretty typical of the warming alarmist community, that has more in common with a tort lawyer's paid advocacy than with scientific method.

413 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 9:35:36am

The problem I have with Holder is the same one I have with the resurgence of anti-Semitism:
When does it become acceptable to discuss monstrous proposals in reasonable, calm terms?
Let's not forget that this was a *textbook*.

414 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 9:37:14am

413, continued:

It is only through a lot of University-esque mind-warping that ideas such as Mr. Holdren has published are greeted with anything other than a right cross.

415 ctrlL  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 9:45:55am

Zombie,
I have not read all the comments here and, having participated in the making of 'sausage' at the local government level, am a skeptic at heart. His statement regarding productivity is honest reality to a Liberal. He knows that his thinking is not main-stream and that it scares the HELL out of normal thinking people. Therefore, it is not productive to focus on optimum population. My guess is that he has changed his solutions due to his own maturing of thought and experience and, finally, his AGE. IMHO, he probably has now moved to controlling population with health care reforms that will end up not being able to provide for prolonging human life due to cost constraints to the system.
Just my thoughts ...
regards to you

416 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 10:16:00am
Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization.

In what way is that not an outright lie?

By being a co-author of Ecoscience which does advocate such policies, he and the other authors are responsible for the content of the book. Presumably they were all in agreement at the time, otherwise they wouldn't have shopped the book in the first place or a dissenter would have removed himself from the list of authors or, at the very least, added a footnote saying he didn't agree with such a controversial policy.

417 cimom  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 11:06:30am

I'm not able to find the quote, but one of the things that Holdren wanted was to look into preventing certain people with hearing, vision or mental impairments from having children.

As a deaf mother of three children (all of whom are hearing if anyone should care), I will continue to be very disturbed at the thought of a creep like this having any access to government power.

418 Gumlegs  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 1:05:23pm

Holdren can see now that the pseudo-scientific enthusiasms of thirty years ago were rubbish.

Good for him.

When will he start thinking about the worth of current pseudo-scientific enthusiasms?

419 MTF  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 2:28:17pm

At no point does he say it was "rubbish". Please, lets not be totally silly in our rush to be nice. He says he doesn't advocate, now, the most hateful crimes that are the obvious implications of what he said thirty years ago (and said consistently for at least two decades).

It's far more reasonable to assume he likes being in public office more than he likes honesty, rather than assuming he somehow has changed his mind about his awful beliefs. He does not say that, and no one has any basis for assuming it.

420 Gumlegs  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 5:35:07pm

MTF:

I didn't say he said they are rubbish. I said they are rubbish.

But you're right -- I was being too nice.

421 DANEgerus  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 9:26:45pm

This just in... Reichsmarschall Himmler says "nevermind"... just after being appointed to a top executive position in the American Government that allows him to craft administrative law to further whatever whim strikes him while evading Senate scrutiny of his appointment. But don't worry... he's disavowed his life's work with a quick press release so we can just go back to sleep and ignore the fact that Barack Hussein Obama has appointed more "Czars" then the 44 Presidents before him combined.

Meanwhile... self described Communist and race-based advocate... no, not Rev. Wright... Van Jones, who abuses "Global Warming" as a front for Reparations, after his previous race-based hate-mongering with Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement, or STORM failed to make him a decent living, who is yet another Czar, is not the Czar for Green Jobs or something else imperious...

A Czar Too Far

1. Herb Allison-TARP Czar
2. Alan Bersin-Border Czar
3. Dennis Blair-Intelligence Czar
4. John Brennan-Terrorism Czar
5. Carol Browner-Energy Czar
6. Adolfo Carrion, Jr-Urban Affairs Czar
7. Ashton Carter-Weapons Czar
8. Aneesh Chopra-Technology Czar
9. Jeffrey Crowley-AIDS Czar
10. Cameron Davis-Great Lakes Czar
11. Nancy-Ann DeParle-Health Czar
12. Earl Devaney-Stimulus Accountability Czar
13. Joshua DuBois-Faith-based Czar
14. Kenneth Feinberg-Pay Czar
15. Danny Fried-Guantanamo Closure Czar
16. J. Scott Gration-Sudan Czar
17. Richard Holbrooke-Afghanistan Czar
18. John Holdren-Science Czar
19. Van Jones Green-Jobs Czar
20. Gil Kerlikowske-Drug Czar
21. Vivek Kundra-Information Czar
22. George Mitchell-Mideast Peace Czar
23. Ed Montgomery-Car Czar
24. Dennis Ross-Mideast Policy Czar
25. Gary Samore-WMD Czar
26. Todd Stern-Climate Czar
27. Cass Sunstein-Regulatory Czar
28. Paul Volcker-Economic Czar

"Now, all of this would be laughable, were it not for the power of these individuals with strong loyalties to the Administration. These people are accountable to no one, able to make policy that affects the lives of ordinary citizens, and collect huge salaries compliments of the taxpayer. On second thought, maybe there should be one more czar–the Gone Too Far Czar." -- J. Cook

422 Wendya  Fri, Jul 17, 2009 11:27:48pm

Just out of curiosity, can anyone list a prediction Holdren has made that hasn't failed spectacularly?

Overpopulation? Sea levels? Global cooling? The cold war? CO2 famines?

His spokesman may disavow the kookiness of Ecoscience but that's just one vile set of suggestions in a very long career of being on the wrong side of every issue.

423 Dirk Diggler  Sun, Jul 19, 2009 8:30:58am

Kilgore Trout,

Bad news, everybody: It's good news...
U.S. Stocks Rise as Roubini Predicts Recession to End This Year

“The freefall of the economy has stopped,” Roubini said at a Chilean investors’ conference in New York. “There is light at the end of the tunnel. And the light at the end of the tunnel for once is not the one of an incoming train.”

Bad news Kilgore, it's not good news. That comment was a misrepresentation of Roubini's position. A section from his blog (his real blog, not the fake one you linked to when you tried to smear him).

“It has been widely reported today that I have stated that the recession will be over 'this year' and that I have 'improved' my economic outlook. Despite those reports - however – my views expressed today are no different than the views I have expressed previously. If anything my views were taken out of context.

“I have said on numerous occasions that the recession would last roughly 24 months. Therefore, we are 19 months into that recession. If, as I predicted, the recession is over by the end of the year, it will have lasted 24 months with a recovery only beginning in 2010. Simply put I am not forecasting economic growth before year’s end.

“Indeed, last year I argued that this will be a long and deep and protracted U-shaped recession that would last 24 months. Meanwhile, the consensus argued that this would be a short and shallow V-shaped eight-month long recession (like those in 1990-91 and 2001). That debate is over today as we are in the 19th month of a severe recession; so the V is out the window and we are in a deep U-shaped recession. If that recession were to be over by year end – as I have consistently predicted – it would have lasted 24 months and thus been three times longer than the previous two and five times deeper – in terms of cumulative GDP contraction – than the previous two. So, there is nothing new in my remarks today about the recession being over at the end of this year.

“While the recession will be over by the end of the year the recovery will be weak given the debt overhang in the household sector, the financial system and the corporate sector. Now there is also a massive re-leveraging of the public sector with unsustainable fiscal deficits and public debt accumulation.

“Also, as I fleshed out in detail in recent remarks the labor market is still very weak. I predict a peak unemployment rate of close to 11% in 2010. Such a large unemployment rate will have negative effects on labor income and consumption growth; will postpone the bottoming out of the housing sector; will lead to larger defaults and losses on bank loans (residential and commercial mortgages, credit cards, auto loans, leveraged loans); will increase the size of the budget deficit (even before any additional stimulus is implemented); and will increase protectionist pressures.

“So, yes there is light at the end of the tunnel for the U.S. and the global economy. But as I have consistently argued, the recession will continue through the end of the year, and the recovery will be weak and at risk of a double-dip, as the challenge of getting right the timing and size of the exit strategy for monetary and fiscal policy easing will be daunting.

Harsh unemployment numbers, plummeting property values, and crushing compounding interest on debt are not susceptible your kind of magical thinking.


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