Where Does the Money Go?

Charles Johnson

LifestyleJuly 2009 • Views: 4,431

An interesting graph of American spending habits (click the image for a larger version).

(Via Sociological Images.)

Jump to bottom

187 comments

Egregious Philbin Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:35:12pm

Looks OK, but missing the part about whores and meth.

Sharmuta Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:36:03pm

We spend more on booze than books. *sigh*

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:36:20pm

Well 1.3 of me doesn't drink, so I've saved $594.10.....
$419.90 on smokes..........

I can afford that SHAMWOW!

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:36:45pm

We are going to spend more on alcoholic beverages now.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:37:23pm

Healthcare only 5.7%? Hum, so what's the big rush to ruin the system?

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:37:46pm

re: #1 Egregious Philbin

Looks OK, but missing the part about whores and meth.

I think that is the "Cash Contributions" part.

lurking faith Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:38:00pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

Well, you can't check booze out of the library.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:38:24pm

re: #6 VegasRick

I think that is the "Cash Contributions" part.

Is that what eliot spitzer put on his tax returns?

poteen Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:38:27pm

re: #3 IslandLibertarian

Well 1.3 of me doesn't drink, so I've saved $594.10.....
$419.90 on smokes..........

I can afford that SHAMWOW!

If you don't drink you'll need more for healthcare./

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:38:43pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

We spend more on booze than books. *sigh*

ya, its cheaper
////

Fionn MacCumhaill Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:38:44pm

Hmm. I don't see where interest on loans, credit cards, etc. fits in.

SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:39:01pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

We spend more on booze than books. *sigh*

I was just going to say that.

$118 on books for the whole year ?

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:39:04pm

Where's guns and ammo?

;-P

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:39:14pm

Where's the Rainbow-Unicorn slice?

/ I am my brothers keeper, and all the other loafers waiting for free stuff.........

Sharmuta Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:39:21pm

re: #4 VegasRick

We are going to spend more on alcoholic beverages now.

It's true- the liquor industry is one area that might see an increase of business.

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:39:22pm

re: #7 lurking faith

Well, you can't check booze out of the library.

some get more pleasure out of booze then books
sad

freedombilly Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:39:38pm

$457 for alchoholic beverages? That is my bar bill from a three day conference in Manhattan.

jaunte Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:39:58pm

re: #5 Nevergiveup

Healthcare only 5.7%? Hum, so what's the big rush to ruin the system?

Some people think it should be "free."

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:40:36pm

re: #13 jcm

Where's guns and ammo?

;-P

utopias don't have guns and ammo

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:40:40pm

re: #8 Nevergiveup

Is that what eliot spitzer put on his tax returns?

His favorite charity was helping unwed mothers. (well, just getting them started)
*Old Steve Martin joke

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:41:14pm

re: #12 SasquatchOnSteroids

I was just going to say that.

$118 on books for the whole year ?

Cripes I'll do that in a single pass through a bookstore or Amazon.

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:41:17pm

re: #18 jaunte

Some people think it should be "free."

but if you dont work, then for some who live on the system, is free

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:41:29pm

re: #15 Sharmuta

It's true- the liquor industry is one area that might see an increase of business.

so let's TAX the SHIT out of it!

freedombilly Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:42:10pm

re: #12 SasquatchOnSteroids

That will buy you exactly 11.8% of Kennedy's new book.

rightside Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:42:13pm

re: #13 jcm

That was folded into "entertainment".

wrenchwench Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:42:14pm

I can keep track of where the money goes. What I want to know is where does the time go?

/later, lizards

Kosh's Shadow Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:42:24pm

Income before taxes 63,091
Expenses 49,638
I get them paying under 12% in taxes. Do they cheat on taxes or spend more than they take home?

Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:42:25pm

re: #21 jcm

Cripes I'll do that in a single pass through a bookstore or Amazon.

I get the feeling that's an average, and that some people spent nothing at all, and others of us quite a bit.

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:42:37pm

re: #19 IslandLibertarian

utopias don't have guns and ammo

Huh?

What kind of utopia is that? Utopia will have all the guns and ammo I want to play with and full service ranges more common than McDonalds.

SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:42:54pm

re: #21 jcm

Cripes I'll do that in a single pass through a bookstore or Amazon.

once a month at my favorite bookstore. Least I've spent was @ $80 or so.

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:42:57pm

re: #23 IslandLibertarian

so let's TAX the SHIT out of it EVERYTHING!

FTFY

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:43:36pm

re: #30 SasquatchOnSteroids

once a month at my favorite bookstore. Least I've spent was @ $80 or so.

shish, i got amazon on my crackberry, that's where my pay check will go

jaunte Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:43:51pm

My expenses are way low on housing and way high on reading.
I guess you could split guns and ammo between insurance and entertainment.

Kosh's Shadow Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:44:16pm

re: #27 Kosh's Shadow

Income before taxes 63,091
Expenses 49,638
I get them paying under 12% in taxes. Do they cheat on taxes or spend more than they take home?

Mistyped - more like 22% taxes. That could be possible, in a low tax state with no sales tax.

Sharmuta Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:44:20pm

Most of our money goes to housing. Look how great government involvement in that area worked.

Syrah Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:44:59pm

Did I miss something in this star-gate graph?

Does it only show after tax expenditures?

SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:45:08pm

Apparel and services $1800 ?

They have not seen my wife shop...

Sharmuta Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:45:10pm

re: #23 IslandLibertarian

so let's TAX the SHIT out of it!

They already do.

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:46:06pm

re: #29 jcm

I can tell you need some help with your mind set.
Repeat after me:
GUNs BAD! "0"-care GOOD!
GUNs BAD! FREE STUFF GOOD!
GUNs BAD! "0" sooooooo GOOOOOOOD!

/best 22LR semi auto pistol? want one!

albusteve Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:46:06pm

re: #13 jcm

Where's guns and ammo?

;-P

I left one for you on the last thread...heh

jaunte Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:46:18pm

Tobacco has a asterisk; "*incl. supplies"
??

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:46:19pm

re: #30 SasquatchOnSteroids

once a month at my favorite bookstore. Least I've spent was @ $80 or so.

I have a "Borders" and "B & N" - the offers (coupons) are off the hook. They must be in really bad shape right now.

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:47:30pm

re: #28 EmmmieG

I get the feeling that's an average, and that some people spent nothing at all, and others of us quite a bit.

Scary low average.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:47:48pm

WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House is asking Congress to give the executive branch more power to limit Medicare's rising costs.
A White House letter to top lawmakers on Friday said the move would be "a critical step forward" in controlling health care costs and providing better care.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

I hope any doctor who voted for Obama gets exactly what he deserves.

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:47:52pm

re: #38 Sharmuta

They already do.

baby, you ain't seen anything yet! "0" is out for blood.

SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:47:54pm

re: #24 freedombilly

That will buy you exactly 11.8% of Kennedy's new book.

HA ! Only way I'd buy that is if you ran me into a river or something

Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:48:30pm

re: #43 jcm

Scary low average.

You are also sitting in an online foyer with people whose hobby is debating current events and politics. I'll bet we have a high average.

freetoken Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:48:50pm

re: #1 Egregious Philbin

Looks OK, but missing the part about whores ...

Eh? There is "personal care" on the chart!

lurking faith Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:48:51pm

I want to know if the $118 on reading is just for books, or if it's supposed to include magazines and newspapers, too.

(Yeah, I still subscribe to the local fishwrap.)

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:48:53pm

re: #45 IslandLibertarian

baby, you ain't seen anything yet! "0" is out for blood.

did u just call him a vampire??
///
twilight influence

Sharmuta Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:49:24pm

re: #41 jaunte

Some people still smoke pipes.

jaunte Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:49:35pm

re: #24 freedombilly

That will buy you exactly 11.8% of Kennedy's new book.

$8 million advance. Grotesque!

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:49:38pm

re: #40 albusteve

I left one for you on the last thread...heh

Whole lotta, truth there.

Pianobuff Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:49:39pm

re: #41 jaunte

Tobacco has a asterisk; "*incl. supplies"
??

Lighters, spitoon, pipe cleaner, cigar cutter....

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:49:47pm

re: #48 freetoken

Eh? There is "personal care" on the chart!

$588 only??? ehhhh seriously lol

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:50:00pm

re: #50 Gella

did u just call him a vampire??
///
twilight influence

The dems are bloodsuckers.

albusteve Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:50:12pm

re: #49 lurking faith

I want to know if the $118 on reading is just for books, or if it's supposed to include magazines and newspapers, too.

(Yeah, I still subscribe to the local fishwrap.)

yes, 90% on People Magazine (or the equivalent)

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:50:13pm

re: #51 Sharmuta

Some people still smoke pipes.

and cigars too

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:50:34pm

re: #56 VegasRick

The dems are bloodsuckers.

all blood types

jaunte Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:50:34pm

Spittoons. lol.

Nevergiveup Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:50:47pm

BAGHDAD, July 17 -- The Iraqi government has moved to sharply restrict the movement and activities of U.S. forces in a new reading of a six-month-old U.S.-Iraqi security agreement that has startled American commanders and raised concerns about the safety of their troops.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Our enemies can sense weakness in Washington. Are things starting to unravel? Time will tell, but I'm worried.

[deleted] Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:51:07pm

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:51:27pm

re: #56 VegasRick

The dems are bloodsuckers.

~~Barney Frank is also a _____________!~~

/too vicious?

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:51:32pm

re: #59 Gella

all blood types

Yep.

Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:51:34pm

That average for utilities seems low. I wonder if Health care is beyond the insurance category or are they separate.

Pianobuff Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:51:38pm

re: #39 IslandLibertarian

I can tell you need some help with your mind set.
Repeat after me:
GUNs BAD! "0"-care GOOD!
GUNs BAD! FREE STUFF GOOD!
GUNs BAD! "0" sooooooo GOOOOOOOD!

/best 22LR semi auto pistol? want one!

You can get a voucher for a free AK47 from a car dealer in MO if you make a car purchase there... so maybe it just gets filed under "vehicle".

albusteve Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:51:42pm

re: #51 Sharmuta

Some people still smoke pipes.

bong sales have been doing very well

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:51:54pm

re: #62 Iron Fist

If we drink more, it willl shorten our life spans., Think of all the money the government will save on SSI if everyone will die off in their sixties.

don't forget smoke and drugs

SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:52:01pm

hmmm, Ought to print out that chart and figure my own.

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:52:11pm

re: #63 IslandLibertarian

~~Barney Frank is also a _____________!~~

/too vicious?

Bawney Fwanks SUCKS!

clgood Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:53:00pm

Note the elephant not in the room: Income Tax. It's buried in the middle, and not part of the chart. Taxes in general are hidden here, with the ~~Government Run Pyramid Scheme~~ Social Security payments being lumped casually in with pensions and insurance

Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

Syrah Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:53:23pm

re: #51 Sharmuta

Some people still smoke pipes.

Some people even smoke tobacco in those pipes.

LadyBehir Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:53:43pm

Our medical ($600 per month insurance and a $5000 deductible that we ALWAYS meet - car accident with followup surgeries and cancer, so the insurance is actually a bargain) is almost our car payment plus our mortgage. Our books? Free at the library. Food is about $120 a week. And this on a gross of about $52000 for two people. Take out Socialist Security, business costs (ok, so they are writeoffs for taxes, they're still expenses we pay) and other sundry expenses and I wonder how we're still afloat.

Pianobuff Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:54:02pm

I'm calculating 11.8% in direct energy costs.

Sharmuta Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:54:33pm

I wonder if the booze to books ratio would have other interesting dynamics. Who do the high booze to low books people vote for? Do they vote? I hope they don't vote.

^{I bet they vote.}

lurking faith Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:54:52pm

re: #55 Gella

$588 only??? ehhhh seriously lol

I was thinking that, too. And that's for 2.5 people!

OK, everybody, fess up now. Who's been skimping on the deodorant and soap?

albusteve Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:55:02pm

my graph would be a continuous ring of shades of blue...my bill paying days are long gone

SixDegrees Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:55:34pm

re: #18 jaunte

Some people think it should be "free."

The 5.7% is likely out-of-pocket expenses - deductibles, copays and so forth. I doubt it includes the portion of premiums picked up by employers.

And this isn't likely to change, no matter what sort of system is used. You can't simply give away health care - you need to charge access fees in order to keep demand suppressed. Otherwise, doctor's offices would be jammed with trivial complaints. With the flood of new recipients sure to come with nationalized health care, restricting access through user fees is almost certain to increase, so that 5.7% will likely rise significantly.

Also, if a European model is adopted, there's the matter of purchasing gap insurance policies. The "free" health care in Europe isn't free, and what it covers is strictly limited; nearly everyone carries extra insurance to cover the shortfall, and that cost comes directly out of your pocket.

This is why there's such a rush to ram a package through. The more details that get released, the less rosy things appear.

freedombilly Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:56:01pm

re: #75 Sharmuta

I wonder if the booze to books ratio would have other interesting dynamics. Who do the high booze to low books people vote for? Do they vote? I hope they don't vote.

^{I bet they vote.}

For American Idol.

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:56:04pm

re: #75 Sharmuta

I wonder if the booze to books ratio would have other interesting dynamics. Who do the high booze to low books people vote for? Do they vote? I hope they don't vote.

^{I bet they vote.}

Seattle has a high book purchase rate, and is moonbat blue, don't know about booze figures.

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:57:02pm

re: #76 lurking faith

I was thinking that, too. And that's for 2.5 people!

OK, everybody, fess up now. Who's been skimping on the deodorant and soap?

diapers cost more per year

Nevergiveup Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:57:02pm

This id from the NYTs but it's still funny:

Dodd E-Mail Making Fun of Lobbyists Was Sent to Lobbyists
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Senator Christopher J. Dodd’s campaign has mastered populism, but maybe not tact.

This week the campaign sent out a fund-raising e-mail entitled “Those poor lobbyists!”

To tout Mr. Dodd’s common-man credentials, it quoted anonymous lobbyists complaining that they could not get meetings with him: “ ‘He certainly isn’t doing things to cater to the K Street crowd,’ Isn’t that a shame?” A link sent viewers to a video set against the sound of weeping — presumably the tears of a lobbyist.

The Dodd campaign, however, neglected to remove Washington lobbyists from its e-mail fund-raising lists. One forwarded it to The Times with the question, “Can you believe this idiot is sending this to lobbyists?”

VegasRick Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:57:06pm

re: #80 jcm

Seattle has a high book purchase rate, and is moonbat blue, don't know about booze figures.

Playgirl does not count!
/sissies

Syrah Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:57:18pm

re: #47 EmmmieG

You are also sitting in an online foyer with people whose hobby is debating current events and politics. I'll bet we have a high average.

we are the average raisers. I spend at least 4 times that percentage.

Gella Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:57:23pm

re: #75 Sharmuta

I wonder if the booze to books ratio would have other interesting dynamics. Who do the high booze to low books people vote for? Do they vote? I hope they don't vote.

^{I bet they vote.}

because u don't have to think when u drink

BignJames Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:57:44pm

re: #71 clgood

My ssa contribution is 7.5% of gross...My employer also contributes 7.5% of my gross.

albusteve Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:58:08pm

re: #83 VegasRick

Playgirl does not count!
/sissies

the have to 'import' Guns n Ammo from Ameika

lurking faith Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:58:40pm

re: #75 Sharmuta

How about the high booze and high books people?

Oh, wait - we're here.
;)

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:59:25pm

re: #10 Gella

ya, its cheaper
////

Not if you download your alcohol with the new Booze Kindle...

Anybody got funds for a startup?

Syrah Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:59:48pm

re: #75 Sharmuta

I wonder if the booze to books ratio would have other interesting dynamics. Who do the high booze to low books people vote for? Do they vote? I hope they don't vote.

^{I bet they vote.}

Before, during or after?

IslandLibertarian Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:59:50pm

About those books.........
Orwell's '1984' and 'Animal Farm' Deleted From Kindles
It was conspiracy time on the Internet. Big Brother's revenge? Pressure from the publisher? No, says an Amazon spokesman — the deletion of pirated copies that had been posted to the Kindle store.
"These books were added to our catalog using our self-service platform by a third party who did not have the rights to the books," spokesman Drew Herdener said Friday.

Now if these people had gone to a bookstore and bought a BOOK, they'd still have this piece of literature gold.

Killian Bundy Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:00:04pm

re: #44 Nevergiveup

WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House is asking Congress to give the executive branch more power to limit Medicare's rising costs.
A White House letter to top lawmakers on Friday said the move would be "a critical step forward" in controlling health care costs and providing better care.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

I hope any doctor who voted for Obama gets exactly what he deserves.

/more and more of them have just stopped seeing Medicare patients, they're not dumb

Randall Gross Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:01:22pm

It's astounding that education combined with books is just barely over 2% ... no wonder science is so ill thought of nowadays.

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:05:52pm

re: #41 jaunte

Tobacco has a asterisk; "*incl. supplies"
??

Not "matches," I'm guessing. :)

Stuart Leviton Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:06:58pm

OT
Basiji article - I married girls before execution I can not vouch for the verite' of the article.

Warning: graphic and disgusting.
He said he had been a highly regarded member of the force, and had so "impressed my superiors" that, at 18, "I was given the 'honor' to temporarily marry young girls before they were sentenced to death."

In the Islamic Republic it is illegal to execute a young woman, regardless of her crime, if she is a virgin, he explained. Therefore a "wedding" ceremony is conducted the night before the execution: The young girl is forced to have sexual intercourse with a prison guard - essentially raped by her "husband."
...
they would always fight back, so we would have to put sleeping pills in their food. By morning the girls would have an empty expression; it seemed like they were ready or wanted to die.

"I remember hearing them cry and scream after [the rape] was over," he said. "I will never forget how this one girl clawed at her own face and neck with her finger nails afterwards. She had deep scratches all over her."

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:11:08pm

re: #95 Stuart Leviton

Absolute depravity.

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:12:57pm

re: #27 Kosh's Shadow

Income before taxes 63,091
Expenses 49,638
I get them paying under 12% in taxes. Do they cheat on taxes or spend more than they take home?

Almost assuredly the latter; no need for the former. With deductions and exemptions, that hypothetical American probably pays little or no federal income tax (and may even qualify for the earned income credit).

Lincolntf Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:14:21pm

We only have 1.3 "Earners" per household? That can't be good.
Oh, and where is the big slice for taxes? Aren't they an expenditure?
$945 for "education"? What does that even mean?

Syrah Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:14:43pm

re: #95 Stuart Leviton

Do we have any reason to discount it?

If it is pure propaganda, it so easily fits our preconceptions that the mullahocracy should be concerned.

100

Sharmuta Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:15:27pm

re: #90 Syrah

Before, during or after?

I'm not sure if they read during voting.

101

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:17:23pm

re: #98 Lincolntf

We only have 1.3 "Earners" per household? That can't be good.
Oh, and where is the big slice for taxes? Aren't they an expenditure?
$945 for "education"? What does that even mean?

Typical weekend seminar for either my wife or I can cost that much or more. And we each do one a quarter.

102

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:17:44pm

re: #98 Lincolntf

Oh, and where is the big slice for taxes? Aren't they an expenditure?

Notice the stack of bills. To the right--"Income Before Taxes"
To the left--"Average Annual Expenditures"

Taxes are worked into the difference.

103

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:18:36pm

re: #95 Stuart Leviton

OT
Basiji article - I married girls before execution I can not vouch for the verite' of the article.

Warning: graphic and disgusting.
He said he had been a highly regarded member of the force, and had so "impressed my superiors" that, at 18, "I was given the 'honor' to temporarily marry young girls before they were sentenced to death."

In the Islamic Republic it is illegal to execute a young woman, regardless of her crime, if she is a virgin, he explained. Therefore a "wedding" ceremony is conducted the night before the execution: The young girl is forced to have sexual intercourse with a prison guard - essentially raped by her "husband."
...
they would always fight back, so we would have to put sleeping pills in their food. By morning the girls would have an empty expression; it seemed like they were ready or wanted to die.

"I remember hearing them cry and scream after [the rape] was over," he said. "I will never forget how this one girl clawed at her own face and neck with her finger nails afterwards. She had deep scratches all over her."

Depraved and disgusting, to the millionth power.

I think it's important to point out, though, two words in the first paragraph of the story: this was done by a religious regime. In other words, the young man technically did these things for religious reasons.

Religion and government, all in one. What could possibly go wrong?

104

Lincolntf Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:18:55pm

re: #102 solomonpanting

Oops, now I see it.
Still, it's a weird graph.

105

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:20:04pm

re: #95 Stuart Leviton

In the Islamic Republic it is illegal to execute a young woman, regardless of her crime, if she is a virgin, he explained. Therefore a "wedding" ceremony is conducted the night before the execution: The young girl is forced to have sexual intercourse with a prison guard - essentially raped by her "husband."

To think that there are monsters in this world who are able to wrap their minds around that juxtaposition.

/vomit

106

Lincolntf Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:20:25pm

re: #102 solomonpanting

Basically 14 grand off the top, right?

107

[deleted] Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:21:45pm

108

Alan Furman Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:22:07pm

If there were more laws, more regulations, more taxes, and more scientifically-trained professional civil servants, it would be much more progressive and rational than the unbridled chaos we have now.

It would be intelligently designed spending.

109

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:22:34pm

re: #106 Lincolntf

Basically 14 grand off the top, right?

At 22% of gross income, that sounds about right.

110

[deleted] Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:24:18pm

111

William Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:24:38pm

Here's a graph which illustrates why the economy has melted down. and why it will take several more years before things get better:

Image: 27leon_graph2.large.gif

112

Lincolntf Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:25:05pm

re: #101 jcm

Yeah, that makes sense, my wife does the same. But aren't half the things we pay for somehow "for education"? I don't see how you average a single guy and, say, a couple paying for their kid's college, or pros going to seminars, and expect to have any sort of useful number.

Truth be told, I'm just in a generalized rant mood and the graph was the closest thing to hand.

113

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:26:38pm

re: #112 Lincolntf

Yeah, that makes sense, my wife does the same. But aren't half the things we pay for somehow "for education"? I don't see how you average a single guy and, say, a couple paying for their kid's college, or pros going to seminars, and expect to have any sort of useful number.

Truth be told, I'm just in a generalized rant mood and the graph was the closest thing to hand.

Averages aren't really that helpful expect for a very high level view.

114

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:27:32pm

re: #110 Iron Fist

Government and anything can go wrong. Stalin's Russia killed more people than any religious regieme I am aware of, including maybe even the entire inquisition. Shall we just outlaw government and be done?

I've seen estimates for the Inquisition that run between 3,000 and 30,000. Even at the higher figure, it's still a mere pittance compared to Stalin's millions.

115

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:29:01pm

re: #110 Iron Fist

Government and anything can go wrong. Stalin's Russia killed more people than any religious regieme I am aware of, including maybe even the entire inquisition. Shall we just outlaw government and be done?

Excellent point. Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc. The most infamous mass murderers in history had nothing to do with religion.

116

sngnsgt Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:30:12pm

$457 for alcoholic beverages??? That's all!? Whoever made that chart must be smokin' something! /

117

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:30:33pm

re: #115 David Simon

Excellent point. Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc. The most infamous mass murderers in history had nothing to do with religion.

Communist regimes in the 20th century around 120 million killed by their own governments.

118

ronaldusmagnus Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:30:49pm

It's a government chart, so naturally, the turds leave out the tax category AND they lump social security taxes with pension - not the same thing.

I'll wager the Dept of Labor has a chart showing the individual categories for the various taxes (income, social security and medicare) but some higher-up said "No way we're publishing that - the people will know too much..."

Good grief.

119

Lincolntf Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:31:10pm

re: #116 sngnsgt

Or drinking cheap booze.

120

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:32:02pm

re: #117 jcm

Communist regimes in the 20th century around 120 million killed by their own governments.

And Li'l Kim carries on that fine tradition.

121

LadyBehir Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:32:36pm

There is no excuse for drinking cheap booze.

122

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:34:17pm

re: #105 David Simon

To think that there are monsters in this world who are able to wrap their minds around that juxtaposition.

/vomit

David: Subjects like this bring to mind the Steven Weinberg quote,

Good people do good things, and evil people do evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

123

jcm Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:34:22pm

re: #120 David Simon

And Li'l Kim carries on that fine tradition.

As does do others.....

124

NelsFree Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:36:06pm

re: #111 William

Here's a graph which illustrates why the economy has melted down. and why it will take several more years before things get better:

Um, first off, Good Evening all. Second, I'm going to call BS on the graph. It does not appear to factor in SIZE of houses. Lots of McMansions over 3,000 sf built around central North Carolina. Houses built before 1960 were typically

125

NelsFree Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:38:41pm

re: #122 ShanghaiEd

You know, Mr. Ed, it sounds like you are down on religion this evening. Could you elaborate?

126

NelsFree Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:39:47pm

What, we're losing posters to...Clown Court??
Good grief.

127

Pianobuff Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:41:29pm

Does anybody remember this clown?

(it gets interestingre: #126 NelsFree

What, we're losing posters to...Clown Court??
Good grief.

Yeah.... what a bunch of Bozos.

128

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:41:54pm

re: #111 William

Here's a graph which illustrates why the economy has melted down. and why it will take several more years before things get better:

[Link: graphics.nytimes.com...]

Speculative bubbles are a dangerous thing. What I found most interesting in talking to people during the period of abnormal housing appreciation is that they were convinced that the price of their house was going to rise at that inflated rate ad infinitum.

When it comes to house prices, reversion to the mean is as close as you'll get to certainty. If the price of your house doubled in the last five years, it is more likely, not less likely, to underperform historic averages in the future.

129

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:43:58pm

re: #110 Iron Fist

Government and anything can go wrong. Stalin's Russia killed more people than any religious regieme I am aware of, including maybe even the entire inquisition. Shall we just outlaw government and be done?

Good points, Iron.

If I were in a quibbling mode, I would argue that Stalinism, Communism, etc. were religions under a different name...in the sense that their followers surrender their personal moral choices to some "higher authority." This follows the same reasoning that tree-huggers and global-warmists actually follow the religion of environmentalism.

But since I'm not in a quibbling mode, I would only say that since mankind has proven itself unable to get along without at least some minimal form of government, and we appear to be stuck with it, we should work exceptionally hard to keep that government free of religion and ideology, to the degree humanly possible. Fair enough?

130

BignJames Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:45:52pm

re: #121 LadyBehir

There is no excuse for drinking cheap booze.

That's right....life's too short to drink bad booze.

131

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:46:57pm

re: #122 ShanghaiEd

I think that's a tad harsh, Ed. There are good religious people, and there are bad religious people. The same can be said for any other segment, be it race, sex or creed.

132

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:49:11pm

re: #125 NelsFree

You know, Mr. Ed, it sounds like you are down on religion this evening. Could you elaborate?

Hey, Nels! No, not criticizing religion at all. Just criticizing the mixing of religion and government, as in the horrendous Iran story above.

Contrary to what the Doobie Brothers say, Jesus is more than just all right with me. The Sermon on the Mount is the sum total of my moral code. Sound anti-religious to you?

133

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:49:48pm

re: #129 ShanghaiEd

Good points, Iron.

If I were in a quibbling mode, I would argue that Stalinism, Communism, etc. were religions under a different name...in the sense that their followers surrender their personal moral choices to some "higher authority." This follows the same reasoning that tree-huggers and global-warmists actually follow the religion of environmentalism.

But since I'm not in a quibbling mode, I would only say that since mankind has proven itself unable to get along without at least some minimal form of government, and we appear to be stuck with it, we should work exceptionally hard to keep that government free of religion and ideology, to the degree humanly possible. Fair enough?

Speaking for myself, not IF, that's much better.

134

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:51:12pm

re: #121 LadyBehir

There is no excuse for drinking cheap booze.

Lady, I've always had an excellent excuse: "Hey, it was cheap!"

135

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:56:33pm

re: #131 David Simon

I think that's a tad harsh, Ed. There are good religious people, and there are bad religious people. The same can be said for any other segment, be it race, sex or creed.

Neither Weinberg nor I claimed this is true of all religious people. Just for a troubling number of them.

We're talking about cases where religion is culpable in moral crimes. Do people commit moral crimes because of their race, sex, or creed?

136

lurking faith Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:57:40pm

re: #121 LadyBehir

There is no excuse for drinking cheap booze.

Hear, hear!

I have never in my life been so drunk that I couldn't tell good booze from bad.

137

ladycatnip Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:59:57pm

#129 ShanghaiEd

But since I'm not in a quibbling mode, I would only say that since mankind has proven itself unable to get along without at least some minimal form of government, and we appear to be stuck with it, we should work exceptionally hard to keep that government free of religion and ideology, to the degree humanly possible. Fair enough?

I can assume, then, that you're not down with all the Obama adoration and worship. It can get creepy when people begin idolizing mere mortals.

138

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:02:27pm

re: #129 ShanghaiEd

If I were in a quibbling mode, I would argue that Stalinism, Communism, etc. were religions under a different name...in the sense that their followers surrender their personal moral choices to some "higher authority." This follows the same reasoning that tree-huggers and global-warmists actually follow the religion of environmentalism.

You're not saying there's a religious aspect to the tree-huggers and global-warmists, are you?

139

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:08:58pm

re: #137 ladycatnip

#129 ShanghaiEd

I can assume, then, that you're not down with all the Obama adoration and worship. It can get creepy when people begin idolizing mere mortals.

I'm absolutely not down with that crap, ladycatnip. Idolizing mere mortals is creepy.

This includes the video produced by the GOP and distributed to churches in 2004, "George W. Bush: Faith in the White House," which featured softly-lit scenes of President Bush alongside Jesus. Creepy, creepy, creepy. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

140

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:09:37pm

re: #135 ShanghaiEd

Do people commit moral crimes because of their race, sex, or creed?

Let's see, there's the KKK, rapists the ALF...should I go on?

141

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:13:01pm

re: #137 ladycatnip

#129 ShanghaiEd

I can assume, then, that you're not down with all the Obama adoration and worship. It can get creepy when people begin idolizing mere mortals.

Hear, hear sister. If I see one more middle-aged white woman at an Obama ~~rally~~ speech looking like a giddy, pixilated teenage girl at a Beatles concert, I'm going to hurl.

142

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:26:42pm

re: #138 solomonpanting

You're not saying there's a religious aspect to the tree-huggers and global-warmists, are you?

solomon: Well, it seems to be accepted wisdom, hereabouts. Whenever possible, I try to go with the flow... :)

143

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:30:49pm

re: #137 ladycatnip

#129 ShanghaiEd

I can assume, then, that you're not down with all the Obama adoration and worship. It can get creepy when people begin idolizing mere mortals.

ladycatnip: I would also add that we have always mythologized our presidents to some degree, and the media has always pounced on trivia about their daily lives as though that "news" was inherently more important than your life or mine.

As a rule, we only notice and object to this type of mythologizing when the president in question is someone who makes us want to throw up.

144

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:32:42pm

re: #142 ShanghaiEd

solomon: Well, it seems to be accepted wisdom, hereabouts. Whenever possible, I try to go with the flow... :)

But, you don't believe it, correct?

145

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:33:33pm

re: #140 David Simon

Let's see, there's the KKK, rapists the ALF...should I go on?

OK, let me amend that. Are there people who are excused for committing moral crimes because of their sex, race or creed?

146

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:44:50pm

re: #144 solomonpanting

But, you don't believe it, correct?

As a general rule, I don't believe that people who are passionate about the environment behave as though it were their religion, no.

Since this thread is about cases where people use religion to excuse themselves for committing moral crimes, I would grant that this may be true of the so-called "enviro-vandals," who believe that the end justifies the means of violence.

I would also guess that the number of people in the U.S. who meet that description would probably fit into my house with a little room left for dancing. In other words, not a significant factor in the bigger picture.

147

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:45:34pm

re: #145 ShanghaiEd

OK, let me amend that. Are there people who are excused for committing moral crimes because of their sex, race or creed?

Tom Bradley: "We have to understand their pain."
Celine Dion (sniveling, French Canadian accent): "Let them touch those things!"

Shall I continue?

148

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:51:51pm

re: #147 David Simon

Tom Bradley: "We have to understand their pain."
Celine Dion (sniveling, French Canadian accent): "Let them touch those things!"

Shall I continue?

OJ Simpson

149

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:54:46pm

re: #147 David Simon

Tom Bradley: "We have to understand their pain."
Celine Dion (sniveling, French Canadian accent): "Let them touch those things!"

Shall I continue?

I don't understand what you're saying, David. Honest.

I used the phrase "excused for committing moral crimes" in a legal sense. I.e., the person is off the hook and won't face court.

150

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:03:06pm

re: #149 ShanghaiEd

I don't understand what you're saying, David. Honest.

I used the phrase "excused for committing moral crimes" in a legal sense. I.e., the person is off the hook and won't face court.

I was referring to the Los Angeles riots and the Katrina looting.

Okay, let's try this:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

151

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:11:25pm

re: #148 solomonpanting

OJ Simpson

You could be right, but I'm not sure that had as much to do with race, as it did celebrity and having the wherewithall to buy the best legal defense that money could buy.

/That said, the lone white juror's post-trial comments were rather disturbing

152

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:12:15pm

re: #150 David Simon

I was referring to the Los Angeles riots and the Katrina looting.

Okay, let's try this:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But those guys did go to court, David. The outcome just wasn't one we agreed with.

The young guy in Iran who raped all the women will never be called to answer for it, because his actions were excused by his religion/government.

Totally different concept.

153

razorbacker Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:16:07pm

Income before taxes 63,091.00. Okay. I got that part down, alright.

What about income after taxes? How much? Not just Federal and State income taxes, how about FICA (Who the heck if this FICA person, and why does he get first shot at my money)? How about sales taxes, both state, county, and local. Excise taxes on alcohol and/or tobacco, if you are so inclined.

Look at your phone bill. Do they break out taxes? How about your electricity bill? Water bill?

We've got a 'hotel and motel' tax. That's alright, isn't it? I mean, it's not like you're staying in hotels, you stay at home. But the tax applies to restaurant food, too. Ever eat out? I don't much, but lots of people eat two or three meals a day out of the home. Buy a mixed drink in a Fayetteville eatery and you'll be surprised to find the total price.

You don't really want to think too hard about taxes. It might make you think, "Ya know, I don't think I'm getting value for my money, right there!"

154

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:16:34pm

Oh, and I want to amend my comment #147 to add that although Celine Dion contributed $1,000,000 (good for her), she didn't throw open the doors of her Las Vegas mansion the way that so many religious conservatives did with their more modest abodes.

155

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:23:03pm

re: #152 ShanghaiEd

But those guys did go to court, David. The outcome just wasn't one we agreed with.

The young guy in Iran who raped all the women will never be called to answer for it, because his actions were excused by his religion/government.

Totally different concept.

I don't agree, Ed. That young guy will answer for it if Iran goes the way of Iraq (think Saddam and his demon spawn), Serbia (Milosevic), Romania (Ceaucescu) et al. Yes, the theocratic animals who control Iran now excuse his barbarism; the civilized world doesn't.

156

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:23:37pm

re: #154 David Simon

Oh, and I want to amend my comment #147 to add that although Celine Dion contributed $1,000,000 (good for her), she didn't throw open the doors of her Las Vegas mansion the way that so many religious conservatives did with their more modest abodes.

I still don't see how Celine Dion relates to the subject of religious governments. But, point noted.

157

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:29:32pm

re: #155 David Simon

I don't agree, Ed. That young guy will answer for it if Iran goes the way of Iraq (think Saddam and his demon spawn), Serbia (Milosevic), Romania (Ceaucescu) et al. Yes, the theocratic animals who control Iran now excuse his barbarism; the civilized world doesn't.

Sure. If the country changes to a government that's not theocratic, people might be held accountable for their previous abuses. If it doesn't, they won't be.

Doesn't change the fact that religious governments are more prone to human rights abuses than their civic/secular counterparts. That was my sole point.

158

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:36:10pm

re: #157 ShanghaiEd

PIMF. For accuracy, my second paragraph should have said:

Doesn't change the fact that religious governments are more prone to sanctioning human rights abuses than their civic/secular counterparts. That was my sole point.

159

ladycatnip Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:49:50pm

#143 ShanghaiEd

ladycatnip: I would also add that we have always mythologized our presidents to some degree, and the media has always pounced on trivia about their daily lives as though that "news" was inherently more important than your life or mine.

As a rule, we only notice and object to this type of mythologizing when the president in question is someone who makes us want to throw up.

The only president I can remember the press anointing or mythologizing was JFK. Camelot, JFK and Jacqueline were America's iconography of royalty. Being that I was in junior hi when he was shot, I can't remember if they were subtly immortalized as Obama is. Reagan was loved and admired, but he was certainly not anointed by the press, but mocked whenever the opportunity arose; in fact IIRC the press never missed an opportunity to try and knock him off the pedestal or go after Nancy's influence over him. We can be confident this will never happen with the Obama's.

Bill and Hillary weren't revered; Bush, of course, never had a chance. When he mispronounced nuclear as "nu-cue-ler" it was out there for all to see. He was constantly characterized as a hick, cowboy, etc. The GOP piece you referred to earlier was exactly that - a puff piece by the GOP, not the American press.

Obama, however, has his own puff press (our new AmericanPravda) who watch his back daily, defend him and take every opportunity to anoint him The One.

That's what's scary. When the press loses its objectivity and covers for a president who loves power as much as O does, this is not good.

160

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:53:16pm

re: #157 ShanghaiEd

Sure. If the country changes to a government that's not theocratic, people might be held accountable for their previous abuses. If it doesn't, they won't be.

Doesn't change the fact that religious governments are more prone to human rights abuses than their civic/secular counterparts. That was my sole point.

Then I think we're not as far apart in our thinking as I initially thought (i.e. we both think that theocracy is bad; religion, per se, isn't necessarily bad).

161

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:57:36pm

re: #160 David Simon

Then I think we're not as far apart in our thinking as I initially thought (i.e. we both think that theocracy is bad; religion, per se, isn't necessarily bad).

Absolutely. I'm totally in agreement with that. Want to shake virtual hands?

Now, how do you feel about the Sermon on the Mount...? :)

162

William Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:09:28pm

re: #124 NelsFree

re: #111 William

Here's a graph which illustrates why the economy has melted down. and why it will take several more years before things get better:
Image: 27leon_graph2.large.gif

Um, first off, Good Evening all. Second, I'm going to call BS on the graph. It does not appear to factor in SIZE of houses. Lots of McMansions over 3,000 sf built around central North Carolina. Houses built before 1960 were typically

Shiller tracks sales and resales of the same properties over time; his housing price index is the most accurate available, and is cited and acknowledged as such by all.

As for North Carolina, I have first hand experience with real estate there, and home prices (within the same subdivision) indeed doubled there (in the Cary area) in just 3-4 years. Incomes, however, did not. A classic mania-driven bubble, just like the DotCom mania that preceded it. Pop!

And lenders, they didn't assume the risk of these stupid mortgages that people had no hopes of repaying (see: salaries not doubling), because they packaged up the toxic mortgages (0% down loans, interest only loans, etc), marked them as AAA grade quality investments, and sold them to others. This is why firms such as Lehman Brothers -- in business for over 150 years -- went bankrupt in days.

So now people have all this debt in the form of massive mortgages and/or home equity loans, as the nation's manufacturing base is decimated (see: GM, Ford, Chrysler, shelves at WalMart filled with Chinese goods) and our high-paying "white collar" jobs are shipped to India. We're in deep doo doo, and not a single politician has a clue, or the courage if they had one, to address these issues.

Though few acknowledge it, the size of the financial meltdown is measured in Trillions. Today we're merely at the beginning of the unwinding, plan accordingly.

163

caligal Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:19:49pm

ahh, we spend a lot more on education than what is shown here.

164

spirochete Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:21:27pm

Hey, i don't see child support anywhere on that list...

165

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:26:35pm

re: #161 ShanghaiEd

Absolutely. I'm totally in agreement with that. Want to shake virtual hands?

Now, how do you feel about the Sermon on the Mount...? :)

lol. I may disagree with you, but I always enjoy reading your posts.

166

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:31:57pm

re: #159 ladycatnip

#143 ShanghaiEd

The only president I can remember the press anointing or mythologizing was JFK. Camelot, JFK and Jacqueline were America's iconography of royalty. Being that I was in junior hi when he was shot, I can't remember if they were subtly immortalized as Obama is. Reagan was loved and admired, but he was certainly not anointed by the press, but mocked whenever the opportunity arose; in fact IIRC the press never missed an opportunity to try and knock him off the pedestal or go after Nancy's influence over him. We can be confident this will never happen with the Obama's.

Bill and Hillary weren't revered; Bush, of course, never had a chance. When he mispronounced nuclear as "nu-cue-ler" it was out there for all to see. He was constantly characterized as a hick, cowboy, etc. The GOP piece you referred to earlier was exactly that - a puff piece by the GOP, not the American press.

Obama, however, has his own puff press (our new AmericanPravda) who watch his back daily, defend him and take every opportunity to anoint him The One.

That's what's scary. When the press loses its objectivity and covers for a president who loves power as much as O does, this is not good.

I hear what you're saying, ladyC. I just don't agree. I'd have to see some kind of research data to be convinced that presidential coverage is as one-sided as you maintain.

You think "Bush years" and remember "nu-cu-lar," "hick," and "cowboy." I think "Bush years" and remember Texas barbecue recipes, feature stories on how neat Texas slang is, endless scenes of President Bush clearing brush with inspirational music in the background, and pundits telling me how wonderful it was to finally have a "real man," a "he-man," in office again. Somebody a lot like Reagan in that respect, they said. Unlike that wimp, Clinton.

Clearing brush? Please. Do you know anybody from a wealthy family who dresses in cowboy clothes and clears brush for entertainment, except for a photo opportunity? It was so obviously "image-building" that I couldn't stand to watch the 20th bout of brush-clearing, and another round of the "he-man" talk.

So who's remembering correctly? I think we both are. We all remember through filters, which goes back to my original comment:

As a rule, we only notice and object to this type of mythologizing when the president in question is someone who makes us want to throw up.

I do agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph, though. When the press loses its objectivity and covers for any president, that is not good. I just don't think any of us are dispassionate enough to judge that accurately right now, because we all have such an emotional stake in the outcome. And, we all have our filters.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

167

Wendya Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:29:15pm

The "earnings" part of the chart is garbage. For instance, the SS/medicare contribution for a gross salary of $63, 091 is actually $9,652.93. If you think your employer is "contributing" 7.65% out of the goodness of their hearts, you probably believe the house healthcare plan will save money. For each position in my company, I set aside a specific amount that I can afford to pay based on what that job contributes to the company. I subtract out the 7.65%, unemployment insurance, workers comp, etc... all the stuff I'm required to pay for the privilege of employing someone plus benefits and what is left is their "gross" pay. A person who earns 50K may well cost their employer 60K or more per year. Most people have no clue what they are really earning and how much of it they never see.

168

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:33:07pm

re: #158 ShanghaiEd

Doesn't change the fact that religious governments are more prone to sanctioning human rights abuses than their civic/secular counterparts. That was my sole point.

Today's religious governments = Islamic governments.
Just sayin'.

169

Throbert McGee Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:43:33pm

re: #7 lurking faith

Well, you can't check booze out of the library.

Can't drink for free online, either.

170

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:48:17pm

re: #168 solomonpanting

Today's religious governments = Islamic governments.
Just sayin'.

Yep.

Yesterday's religious governments = Christian governments.
Tomorrow's religious governments = ???
The pendulum swings.
Just sayin'.

(But I'm selfish. Keeping the U.S. government 100% secular is enough on my plate at one time.)

171

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:52:24pm

re: #169 Throbert McGee

Can't drink for free online, either.

Oh, I beg to differ, Throbert. Here online, we drink...for free and most freely...of Truth!

OK, maybe it's time for my nightly medicine... :)

172

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:56:27pm

re: #170 ShanghaiEd

Yep.

Yesterday's religious governments = Christian governments.
Tomorrow's religious governments = ???
The pendulum swings.
Just sayin'.

(But I'm selfish. Keeping the U.S. government 100% secular is enough on my plate at one time.)

I'm not defending theocracies, but most of yesterday's govenments
all tended to be rather brutal or else very restrictive of its citizen's rights.
Yesterday's religious governments= Islamic and Christian governments. One of those still has some catching up to do.

173

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:05:49pm

re: #172 solomonpanting

I'm not defending theocracies, but most of yesterday's govenments
all tended to be rather brutal or else very restrictive of its citizen's rights.
Yesterday's religious governments= Islamic and Christian governments. One of those still has some catching up to do.

I assume you're talking about "catching up" to contemporary civilization.

From what I read of various fundamentalist Christian movements in the U.S., I'd say that many adherents of Christianity and Islam have a lot of catching up to do.

174

David Simon Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:07:36pm

re: #167 Wendya

The "earnings" part of the chart is garbage. For instance, the SS/medicare contribution for a gross salary of $63, 091 is actually $9,652.93. If you think your employer is "contributing" 7.65% out of the goodness of their hearts, you probably believe the house healthcare plan will save money.

Good point. Most people don't understand that they'd be making more money if the didn't have to "contribute" to a bullshit confiscatory Ponzi scheme. (Their employers would be more profitable, AND they wouldn't be paying in to a bankrupt system.) Likewise, most people don't realize that their "net pay" is their salary, less what the government steals from them.

In a slightly less than perfect world, everyone would receive their full pay, and have to dole it out to the welfare bums and pork barrel "projects" themselves. (We'd then move closer to a perfect world, where everyone would demand that the insane bullshit cease.)

175

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:07:43pm

re: #173 ShanghaiEd

I assume you're talking about "catching up" to contemporary civilization.

From what I read of various fundamentalist Christian movements in the U.S., I'd say that many adherents of Christianity and Islam have a lot of catching up to do.

Only one of those groups control governments.

176

ShanghaiEd Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:20:26pm

re: #175 solomonpanting

Only one of those groups control governments.

Thank goodness.

In fairness, Christians have been trying like hell to control the U.S. government. Pardon the expression.

If you'll tell me you're familiar with the goals of Dominionist Theology, Christian Reconstructionism, the Discovery Institute, ad infinitum, then we're on the same page and I'll agree to call it a night. Deal?

177

solomonpanting Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:27:32pm

re: #176 ShanghaiEd

There's a rather large difference between trying to control a government and possessing that control. I suppose I harbor a bit more confidence that the overwhelming majority of Christians would recoil at the notion of a government in it's name perpetrating or sanctioning the types of abuses seen under Islamic-dominated governments.
Good night.

178

jcw46 Sun, Jul 19, 2009 12:32:35am

Notice how they removed the "expense" of taxes before they begin to create the circle?

I guess they didn't want anyone to be distracted by how large a percentage we pay out of our income on taxes. Also they included Social Security in with pension expenses. When one is FORCED to pay into a system, that's called a TAX.

179

josephcox Sun, Jul 19, 2009 2:01:52am

re: #153 razorbacker

It is much easier to do the tax the other way - add up how much state, federal and local government spend and then divide the people in. The figure according to usgovernmentspending.com is $6.4 trillion for a population of 300 million for a per capita of 21,000. It is 34%.

That's why they didn't include it.

It breaks the pie.

180

John_in_VA Sun, Jul 19, 2009 5:18:58am

Even if the diagram did show taxes as a slice in the pie, rather than removing it, there would still be taxes and government-imposed bureaucratic management nested in many of the remaining slices; e.g., alcohol, gasoline, and tobacco are heavily taxed; there's heavy regulation on food, health care, transportation, housing, etc.

181

dgd Sun, Jul 19, 2009 6:29:47am

The where's the taxes question puzzled me for a minute 'till I realized that this was a govt document and the last thing the hacks in Washington want to do is wake up the taxpayers.

182

largolarry Sun, Jul 19, 2009 8:15:11am

The graph is stupid because it eliminates the largest expenditure that all households make which is taxes. To spend that $50,000 you need to make $100,000 or more.

183

Gumlegs Sun, Jul 19, 2009 9:28:55am

I notice they were very careful to obscure the taxes by keeping them out of the expenditure ring.

184

Tully Sun, Jul 19, 2009 9:34:34am

re: #181 dgd

The where's the taxes question puzzled me for a minute 'till I realized that this was a govt document and the last thing the hacks in Washington want to do is wake up the taxpayers.

Bingo.

185

josephcox Sun, Jul 19, 2009 9:50:39am

I did it wrong, sorry. $21,000 per PERSON. The graph is per family. There are 2.5 people in such a unit. So we spend $50,000 - or a full 80+% of our earnings on government. It TOTALLY breaks the pie.

186

oneman Sun, Jul 19, 2009 2:49:17pm

Funny...I don't see "guns and ammunition" represented anywhere in there...

187

a marine mom Mon, Jul 20, 2009 2:59:45pm

So, the chart shows that just over $800 for the house payment. I only know of one person who has a house payment at $750 but does not include insurance and taxes.

Which brings me to the next issue, what are the taxes of the average Joe on this?

This chart is way below what is needed for the family.

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