Totten: The Future of Iraq, Part IV

Middle East • Views: 12,501

Michael Totten continues his must-read series on The Future of Iraq, Part IV.

I don’t think many Iraqis today are afraid of the state. But everybody was terrified of Saddam Hussein’s totalitarian government. Speaking their minds could get them imprisoned or killed. It could get an entire family dragged off to prison, tortured, and painfully executed. Before the Baath Party regime was demolished, it was extremely difficult for journalists who showed up in Baghdad to read the mood of the street. Everybody appeared to be fanatical supporters of Saddam Hussein even though few Iraqis actually were.

That’s not true anymore. But habits of mind go down hard. Concealing opinions from the authorities became a survival mechanism, whether the authorities were Saddam Hussein’s mukhabarat, militiamen in the neighborhood, or American soldiers.

Before the Status of Forces agreement kicked in, I asked U.S. Army Colonel John Hort if and how he and his men took all this into account. Effective counter-insurgency isn’t possible when counter-insurgents have no idea what the general population is thinking.

“How do you measure public opinion?” I said to him. “How do you know what people really think? We all know about this tendency in Iraq where people tell you what they think you want to hear – or what they want you to hear, which isn’t necessarily the same thing. If you ask what Iraqis think of the American military while you’re standing there with guns in your hands, they might say oh, we love you guys. Then someone from the Guardian newspaper comes along and asks what they think of the imperial occupation forces, and the same people might say we hate them. So what’s their real opinion? Do you take this sort of thing into account? Do you have Iraqis feeling out the opinions of people for you?”

“We do,” he said.

“And they report back to you?” I said.

“Right,” he said. “We have the Iraqi Advisor Task Force. They aren’t spies. That’s illegal. But they’re hired to measure atmospherics. They monitor the mosques. They hit the restaurants, places like that. And we get these reports almost every other day. Over time we’ve seen the atmospherics and compared them to what you were talking about, the guy on the street talking to the U.S. soldier. Do they match up? And if they don’t match up, we have to figure out what we need to change about the way we’re presenting ourselves.”

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158 comments
1 legalpad  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:06:26pm

My son says the US Army has plans to garrison Iraq indefinitely.

2 victor_yugo  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:08:26pm

re: #1 legalpad

My son says the US Army has plans to garrison Iraq indefinitely.

With O as CiC, that probably involves "Mr. Hand" and a bunch of really cheesy lecturing.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:08:49pm

re: #1 legalpad

My son says the US Army has plans to garrison Iraq indefinitely.

Like Germany, or like South Korea?

4 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:08:54pm

Totten should get the Pulitzer.

5 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:09:14pm

re: #2 victor_yugo

With O as CiC, that probably involves "Mr. Hand" and a bunch of really cheesy lecturing.

M'kay?

6 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:10:44pm

re: #4 HelloDare

Totten should get the Pulitzer.

No, he'd have to lie to get one of those, make something up (fiction), or cover up somebody's fratricide.

7 legalpad  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:11:38pm

re: #3 EmmmieG

Like Germany, or like South Korea?

Well, probably on the periphery like they are now, with Iraqis doing security patrols and the US ready to jump on large movements and concentrations.

8 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:11:54pm

re: #6 Ward Cleaver

No, he'd have to lie to get one of those, make something up (fiction), or cover up somebody's fratricide.

The operative word is should. Totten will never get the award.

9 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:12:12pm

re: #1 legalpad

My son says the US Army has plans to garrison Iraq indefinitely.

I expect it'll be like Germany or South Korea, with a permanent force there.

10 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:12:29pm

OT - (so soon, but important)

Who was it that said that Zelaya would be able to enter the US easier than Honduras...

Ousted Honduran president crosses border, returns to country

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

11 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:13:17pm

re: #8 HelloDare

The operative word is should. Totten will never get the award.

You're right. But then, would you want an award that was also given to Walter Duranty?

12 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:13:57pm

re: #9 Ward Cleaver

I expect it'll be like Germany or South Korea, with a permanent force there.

Yah, the 100-year quote from McCain that the Dems misrepresented.

13 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:14:38pm

re: #11 Ward Cleaver

You're right. But then, would you want an award that was also given to Walter Duranty?

Yes, because it would be evident that Totten wouldn't be receiving it for the same reason as Duranty.

14 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:15:18pm

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

OT - (so soon, but important)

Who was it that said that Zelaya would be able to enter the US easier than Honduras...

Ousted Honduran president crosses border, returns to country

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

That was me. Hmmm... Let's see what happens next. What happens when he tries to get back into the presidential mansion? That's when it could get interesting.

15 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:15:22pm
But habits of mind go down hard. Concealing opinions from the authorities became a survival mechanism, whether the authorities were Saddam Hussein’s mukhabarat, militiamen in the neighborhood, or American soldiers.

And in a couple generations, the Iraqis will have lost this defense mechanism, hopefully. Small children today will never know the fear that their parents and grandparents had of their own government. It was dearly bought, but I think that's a beautiful gift.

16 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:15:45pm

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

OT - (so soon, but important)

Who was it that said that Zelaya would be able to enter the US easier than Honduras...

Ousted Honduran president crosses border, returns to country

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

"white flag, peace, just and noble cause"...red flags...no mention of the rule of law, right out of the manual

17 zombie  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:16:58pm

From the article:

"MJT: They say you're a good guy to talk to because you give straight answers. It's hard to get straight answers in Iraq.

Sayid: Yeah.

MJT: Can you explain to me why that is? I mean, I have an idea why, but I'm sure you understand it better than I do.

Sayid: It's the formula of our community. There are many kinds of people. I will give you a straight answer, but it's Iraqi like me.

Just 20 percent of our people are good. 80 percent are bad. You should know that.

MJT: I've heard that. You're not the first Iraqi who has said this to me.

Sayid: The bad people won't give you a straight answer if you ask them about anything. For example, if you ask them about electricity. Is it good or bad? If they have 12 hours of electricity a day, they will say they have just one hour.


Baghdad's electrical wires
MJT: So they say it's worse than it is.

Sayid: Yes. They don't tell the truth about this stuff. And that's just an example. And if you ask a deeper question, you can imagine the kinds of things they will say."

That explains a lot.

18 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:16:59pm

re: #11 Ward Cleaver

You're right. But then, would you want an award that was also given to Walter Duranty?

It would help legitimize it.

19 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:17:51pm

re: #14 Ward Cleaver

That was me. Hmmm... Let's see what happens next. What happens when he tries to get back into the presidential mansion? That's when it could get interesting.

Why do these Dictators and Dictator-Wanna-Bes all go by the title President? Who are they kidding?

20 JustABill  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:17:58pm

re: #2 victor_yugo

With O as CiC, that probably involves "Mr. Hand" and a bunch of really cheesy lecturing.

They could open a chain of "Edna's Edibles".
/to obscure?

21 victor_yugo  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:19:05pm

re: #20 JustABill

They could open a chain of "Edna's Edibles".
/to obscure?

No, Mrs. Garrett.

22 opnion  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:20:24pm

re: #19 Idle Drifter

Why do these Dictators and Dictator-Wanna-Bes all go by the title President? Who are they kidding?

I don't want any President that doesn't have constant press conferences, provide teachable moments & constantly lecture

23 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:22:01pm

Speaking their minds could get them imprisoned or killed. It could get an entire family dragged off to prison, tortured, and painfully executed.

North Korea Publicly Executes Christian Woman for Distributing Bible
SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea publicly executed a Christian woman last month for distributing the Bible, which is banned in the communist nation, South Korean activists said Friday.
Ri Hyon Ok, 33, was also accused of spying for South Korea and the United States and organizing dissidents. She was executed in the northwestern city of Ryongchon near the border with China on June 16, according to a report from an alliance of several dozen anti-North Korea groups.
Ri's parents, husband and three children were sent to a political prison camp in the northeastern city of Hoeryong the following day, the report said,

Bush did a great thing!

24 Idle Drifter  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:22:50pm

re: #22 opnion

I don't want any President that doesn't have constant press conferences, provide teachable moments & constantly lecture

I just want a President that doesn't know all the right answers and will search for them and can change the plan when it's not working.

25 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:22:51pm

re: #17 zombie

That explains a lot.

Such as?

26 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:23:06pm

re: #23 IslandLibertarian

Speaking their minds could get them imprisoned or killed. It could get an entire family dragged off to prison, tortured, and painfully executed.

North Korea Publicly Executes Christian Woman for Distributing Bible
SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea publicly executed a Christian woman last month for distributing the Bible, which is banned in the communist nation, South Korean activists said Friday.
Ri Hyon Ok, 33, was also accused of spying for South Korea and the United States and organizing dissidents. She was executed in the northwestern city of Ryongchon near the border with China on June 16, according to a report from an alliance of several dozen anti-North Korea groups.
Ri's parents, husband and three children were sent to a political prison camp in the northeastern city of Hoeryong the following day, the report said,

Bush did a great thing!

I don't understand. What did Bush have to do with that?

27 opnion  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:25:23pm

re: #24 Idle Drifter

I just want a President that doesn't know all the right answers and will search for them and can change the plan when it's not working.

That doesn't describe anybody that I know in the White House.
It is disturbing that he can't admit a mistake.

28 poteen  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:25:42pm

The Mike and Mike Show (Totten and Yon) would be a guaranteed weekly rating winner. Imagine, a REAL reality show.

/ Wonder why nobody has offered them a deal yet?

29 KenJen  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:26:22pm

re: #23 IslandLibertarian

Speaking their minds could get them imprisoned or killed. It could get an entire family dragged off to prison, tortured, and painfully executed.

North Korea Publicly Executes Christian Woman for Distributing Bible
SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea publicly executed a Christian woman last month for distributing the Bible, which is banned in the communist nation, South Korean activists said Friday.
Ri Hyon Ok, 33, was also accused of spying for South Korea and the United States and organizing dissidents. She was executed in the northwestern city of Ryongchon near the border with China on June 16, according to a report from an alliance of several dozen anti-North Korea groups.
Ri's parents, husband and three children were sent to a political prison camp in the northeastern city of Hoeryong the following day, the report said,

Bush did a great thing!

How is this Bush's fault?

30 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:26:52pm

re: #26 eschew_obfuscation

Don't you know? GW is just like da Jooos, it ALL either his fault or da Joos. Anything, anyhwere, any time!

31 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:27:12pm

re: #19 Idle Drifter

Why do these Dictators and Dictator-Wanna-Bes all go by the title President? Who are they kidding?

Fake credibility.

32 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:27:27pm

re: #26 eschew_obfuscation

Iraqis no longer live in fear of Saddam.
Bush got rid of Saddam Hussein. He free 50 million +/- people.
The comparison to North Korea's tyranny is my point.

33 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:27:42pm

OT: Tea Party leadership stands behind racist doctor...
Tea Party Leader To McKalip: "We All Have Your Back My Friend!"

The national coordinator of the American Tea Party movement is standing behind David McKalip and has pledged her help as he struggles with the fallout over the racist email he sent showing President Obama dressed as a witch doctor.
...
Kremer is the American Tea Party movement's official National Coordinator, and also serves as a prominent public face for the movement, on whose behalf she has made numerous media appearances in recent months.
...
In an interview with TPMmuckraker, Kremer said that despite her pledge of support for McKalip on the listserv, she had been traveling and had not seen the original email McKalip sent.

She said she stood by him regardless, and seemed to minimize the flap over the email. "David McKalip is fighting for something he believes in," she said. "Attacking him for that email is a distraction from the issue."

Asked to imagine an email in which the African-American President of the United States is pictured as a witch doctor, Kremer said: "I don't know if it would be a problem or not."

34 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:28:00pm

re: #28 poteen

The Mike and Mike Show (Totten and Yon) would be a guaranteed weekly rating winner. Imagine, a REAL reality show.

/ Wonder why nobody has offered them a deal yet?

Not a bad idea.

35 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:28:15pm

re: #30 pingjockey

Don't you know? GW is just like da Jooos, it ALL either his fault or da Joos. Anything, anyhwere, any time!

Well, I KNOW that ;-) ...just don't usually see it here without a sarc tag. And I'm not sure that what was really meant any way.

36 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:28:26pm

re: #32 IslandLibertarian
Ah, sorry for the bad comprehension!

37 jcm  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:28:28pm

re: #23 IslandLibertarian

Speaking their minds could get them imprisoned or killed. It could get an entire family dragged off to prison, tortured, and painfully executed.

North Korea Publicly Executes Christian Woman for Distributing Bible
SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea publicly executed a Christian woman last month for distributing the Bible, which is banned in the communist nation, South Korean activists said Friday.
Ri Hyon Ok, 33, was also accused of spying for South Korea and the United States and organizing dissidents. She was executed in the northwestern city of Ryongchon near the border with China on June 16, according to a report from an alliance of several dozen anti-North Korea groups.
Ri's parents, husband and three children were sent to a political prison camp in the northeastern city of Hoeryong the following day, the report said,

Bush did a great thing!

Bush made them do it...

"Good News," Iraq & Beyond, Part II
Elite policy and the "Axis of Evil"
May, 01 2008 By Noam Chomsky

The official story right now is that after having been forced to accept an agreement on dismantling its nuclear weapons facilities, North Korea is again trying to evade its commitments in its usual devious way—"good news" for superhawks like John Bolton, who have held all along that the North Koreans understand only the mailed fist and will exploit negotiations only to trick us.

*nausea alert*

38 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:29:17pm

re: #32 IslandLibertarian

Iraqis no longer live in fear of Saddam.
Bush got rid of Saddam Hussein. He free 50 million +/- people.
The comparison to North Korea's tyranny is my point.

Ahh... didn't pick up the connection with Iraq ... agreed!

39 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:29:42pm

re: #37 jcm
Noam Chumpsy should be exiled to live in the workers paradise of cuba,

40 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:30:32pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout
I'm not sure if these people are standing on the edge or have already jumped off the cliff. Either way they are nuts..
Thanks for the link KT

41 Dianna  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:30:46pm

Query: Does anyone know anything about This book?

It's written by Jeff Sharlet, of whom I know absolutely nothing.

42 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:30:48pm

re: #32 IslandLibertarian

Iraqis no longer live in fear of Saddam.
Bush got rid of Saddam Hussein. He free 50 million +/- people.
The comparison to North Korea's tyranny is my point.

It just didn't come out clearly.

43 Dianna  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:31:31pm

re: #40 HoosierHoops

I'm not sure if these people are standing on the edge or have already jumped off the cliff. Either way they are nuts..
Thanks for the link KT

Jumped, still falling, and not noticing the nasty rocks below, is my guess.

44 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:31:44pm

re: #40 HoosierHoops
Nucking futs fits best.

45 lobo91  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:31:47pm

re: #1 legalpad

My son says the US Army has plans to garrison Iraq indefinitely.

Yes, the Army's planning is currently based on the assumption that we will have approximately 50,000 Soldiers in Iraq for the forseeable future.

The fact that that assumption is being used for planning purposes doesn't mean that it will necessarily happen that way, however. I could definitely see the current administration/Congress deciding to withdraw the remainder of our troops in another couple of years.

Did you happen to read the last part of Totten's piece?:

Sergeant Franklin was not optimistic.

"I think Iran is laying low right now and is riding us out," he said. "They're still killing our guys, though, and we know it. You know it. But we pretend they aren't so we don't have to open up another front. When we pull out, though, and they know we're almost out, it will be game on here in Iraq."

If you want to know what's actually taking place on the ground, ask the NCOs.

46 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:31:47pm

re: #38 eschew_obfuscation

Ahh... didn't pick up the connection with Iraq ... agreed!

my post was a bit clumsy.
hit and run...

/I miss Bush...

47 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:32:33pm

re: #37 jcm

Chomsky mistakes validation for good news. Boltons would be thrilled to see the Norks disarm, but he's a bit* wiser than Chomsky.


*Severe understatement intentional

48 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:32:33pm

re: #28 poteen

The Mike and Mike Show (Totten and Yon) would be a guaranteed weekly rating winner. Imagine, a REAL reality show.

/ Wonder why nobody has offered them a deal yet?

Well I don't think you can call it the Mike and Mike show..ESPN would sue..
But a fine idea

49 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:32:45pm

re: #40 HoosierHoops

Another in a long sequence of bad decisions. If somebody forwarded that to me I'd be pissed. They don't seem to mind.

50 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:33:08pm

re: #45 lobo91
Yep. NCOs know what the hell is going on all the fucking time. Hell that's who runs the military day to day.

51 jcm  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:33:41pm

re: #39 pingjockey

Noam Chumpsy should be exiled to live in the workers paradise of cuba,

I'm having a long running discussion with a co-worker about Chumpsky...

Moral equivalence runs deep.

Execution of a person handing out a Bible and the imprisonment of her entire family is the same as jailing or putting on death row someone innocent of the crime.

52 Dianna  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:34:31pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Another in a long sequence of bad decisions. If somebody forwarded that to me I'd be pissed. They don't seem to mind.

The real problem is that the ones who did mind didn't speak up. Or we don't know about it, which also speaks volumes.

Speaking of which - did you note my book query just above?

53 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:35:10pm

re: #41 Dianna

Query: Does anyone know anything about This book?

It's written by Jeff Sharlet, of whom I know absolutely nothing.

I don't know, but it looks like the hardcover edition was published last year, while Bush was still in office. Since the Dems are in power now, I'm sure how current it would be (at least as far as influence on people in power).

54 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:35:20pm

re: #51 jcm
Oh boy. How often does that actually happen in this country? Especially the way the appeals process is set up for capitol cases.

55 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:35:41pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

OT: Tea Party leadership stands behind racist doctor...
Tea Party Leader To McKalip: "We All Have Your Back My Friend!"

people see things differently...where I see racism, they see a political statement and no more...people are just blind to the big picture..."attacking him is a distraction from the big issue"...what bigger issue can there be?...you just have to wonder about the average voter...I mean this woman probably makes a fine neighbor...it's over most peoples head I'm afraid

56 Eowyn2  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:35:52pm

re: #1 legalpad

My son says the US Army has plans to garrison Iraq indefinitely.

Whether those plans come to fruition is another matter but they probably will. We're still in Germany, Japan, Korea...

57 KenJen  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:36:22pm

re: #41 Dianna

Query: Does anyone know anything about This book?

It's written by Jeff Sharlet, of whom I know absolutely nothing.

Customer who bought it also bought Glenn Beck's book.

58 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:37:01pm

I've been warning conservatives to go easy on the doomsday financial predictions. They make easy targets for the lefties...
The kitchen sink brigade

When the Dow was down below 7,000, Republicans couldn’t stop citing it as ‘proof’ that President Obama’s economic plans had failed.

Now that the Dow is in 9,000 territory — up well over 10% since inauguration day — right-wing pundits like J.P. Frere are trying to pretend conservatives never attacked Obama on the stock market.

Well, as Faiz Shakir of Think Progress and David Shuster and Tamron Hall of MSNBC reminded Frere, that’s exactly they did — and as this clip shows, the videotape doesn’t lie.


Watch the video. Making these bad predictions is going to have consequences down the road. When the economy is well into recovery in a few years a lot of people are going to look very stupid. Stupid doesn't win elections.

59 lobo91  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:37:12pm

re: #54 pingjockey

Oh boy. How often does that actually happen in this country? Especially the way the appeals process is set up for capitol cases.

You've obviously never spoken to a convict, or a convict's family.

If you had, you'd know that they're all innocent.

/// Do I really need to?

60 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:38:04pm

re: #59 lobo91
Heh. Dirty Dozen reference, cool.

61 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:38:12pm

I'd like to know if the average Iraqi prefers Obama or Bush ?

62 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:39:07pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

OT: Tea Party leadership stands behind racist doctor...
Tea Party Leader To McKalip: "We All Have Your Back My Friend!"

OTOH, read all the moonbat comments. I don't like the Paulians or the moonbats.

63 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:39:19pm

re: #57 KenJen

Customer who bought it also bought Glenn Beck's book.

OH MY GOD! It MUST be shunned!

64 Dianna  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:40:04pm

re: #53 Ward Cleaver

I'm curious about how paranoid it is, and how well-researched.

65 jcm  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:40:31pm

re: #54 pingjockey

Oh boy. How often does that actually happen in this country? Especially the way the appeals process is set up for capitol cases.

There have been a number of death row cases overturned, but I'm not aware of a executed person being exonerated afterwards.

Not justifying a incorrect prosecution and conviction but few of those exonerated had pristine records to begin with. In most cases suspicion was warranted. Very few cases are out and out "frame ups" by the cops, prosecutors etc... Overzealous, a lot of that in those case.

66 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:40:32pm

re: #52 Dianna

Never heard of him before. Sounds kinda nutty but it could be interesting.

67 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:41:12pm

re: #64 Dianna

I'm curious about how paranoid it is, and how well-researched.

My concern it that it might be more paranoia than anything.

68 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:41:19pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

I've been warning conservatives to go easy on the doomsday financial predictions. They make easy targets for the lefties...
The kitchen sink brigade


Watch the video. Making these bad predictions is going to have consequences down the road. When the economy is well into recovery in a few years a lot of people are going to look very stupid. Stupid doesn't win elections.

the fact that the market crashed as far as it did is due mostly to donk inaction last fall and winter...that's the reality of it...the bailout that isn't...leave the economy alone and it will right itself and the market is struggling to move up in spite of the looming massive deficets and probable inflation...it's only one indicator

69 Dianna  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:41:19pm

re: #57 KenJen

Customer who bought it also bought Glenn Beck's book.

But it seems to be the complete opposite - or maybe all paranoias are essentially the same in their base?

70 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:42:00pm

re: #69 Dianna

But it seems to be the complete opposite - or maybe all paranoias are essentially the same in their base?

They do seem to be at opposite poles.

71 Dianna  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:42:10pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Never heard of him before. Sounds kinda nutty but it could be interesting.

What the heck. I'll pick up the paperback and read it.

But I won't read Beck.

72 lobo91  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:43:06pm

re: #60 pingjockey

Heh. Dirty Dozen reference, cool.

Wasn't actually intended to be, but you're right.

I was actually thinking about a committee hearing I sat through while I worked for the NM legislature about 10 years ago. Just about every person in the hearing room was the mother, sister, wife or girlfriend of an inmate. Every one of them claimed that their loved one was innocent.

I actually had the files for most of them sitting on my desk.

If they were all wrongly convicted, all I can say is that most of them had really bad luck, because it seemed to happen over and over...

73 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:43:46pm

re: #71 Dianna

What the heck. I'll pick up the paperback and read it.

But I won't read Beck.

why would anybody read a book by Beck?...hahaha!...people really do?

74 HelloDare  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:44:06pm

McCain Lawyers Investigated Obama Citizenship
As we asked earlier this week, if questions over President Obama's citizenship were valid, wouldn't they have come out during the presidential campaign?

David Weigel talked with Trevor Potter and other lawyers for Sen. John McCain's presidential campaign who said that they did look into the Obama citizenship rumors and found them without merit.

Said Potter: "To the extent that we could, we looked into the substantive side of these allegations. We never saw any evidence that then-Senator Obama had been born outside of the United States. We saw rumors, but nothing that could be sourced to evidence. There were no statements and no documents that suggested he was born somewhere else. On the other side, there was proof that he was born in Hawaii. There was a certificate issued by the state's Department of Health, and the responsible official in the state saying that he had personally seen the original certificate. There was a birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser, which would be very difficult to invent or plant 47 years in advance."

75 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:45:44pm

re: #68 albusteve

All of that was a continuation of the meltdown that started last August/September from the decision to let Lehman Bros fail. Tarp (started by Bush and continued by Obama) is what saved us.

76 Dianna  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:46:05pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Stupid doesn't win elections.

That would - given the last couple elections here in California - be extraordinarily hard to support.

77 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:47:11pm

re: #72 lobo91

Heh. Bad companions, bad choices etc...

78 jcm  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:47:40pm

re: #74 HelloDare

There was a birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser, which would be very difficult to invent or plant 47 years in advance."

You obviously never heard of Minitrue!

//

79 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:47:42pm

Later folks, meds making it hard to focus!

80 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:47:53pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Beige Book July 10, 2009

Reports from the twelve Federal Reserve District Banks indicate that economic conditions remained weak or deteriorated further during the period from mid-April through May. However, five of the Districts noted that the downward trend is showing signs of moderating. Further, contacts from several Districts said that their expectations have improved, though they do not see a substantial increase in economic activity through the end of the year.

Eventually, the economy will improve. For completely selfish reasons, I want it to improve now. I need it to improve in the next five years.

I don't care who the President is, the President doesn't put groceries on my table, buy my transportation, heat and cool my house, or pay my doctor.

The President does not know me. None of them have, except for WJBClinton. And I don't think that he liked me, much.

81 jcm  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:48:45pm

re: #79 pingjockey

Later folks, meds making it hard to focus!

Take care ping, prayers going up.

82 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:48:45pm

re: #78 jcm

You obviously never heard of Minitrue!

//

I AM THE DEAD. By putting this pen to paper, I have sentenced myself to death. It is not a crime to write, but it is a thought crime to reflect on what you have written. The Party writes for us, and my job at the Ministry of Truth requires me to re-write what they have written. I do not write lies; I simply substitute one bit of nonsense for another. I correct the statements and the Ministry of Truth will see to it that no matter where the original statement appeared; newspaper, book, publication or film, these items will be destroyed and replaced with current copies. Everything fades away into this shadow-world where even the date of the current day will become uncertain.

83 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:49:12pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

All of that was a continuation of the meltdown that started last August/September from the decision to let Lehman Bros fail. Tarp (started by Bush and continued by Obama) is what saved us.

imagine what payrole tax cuts would have done..or reducing corporate and small business tax...dumping private money into the economy then would have prevented this meltdown...there is no federal money for a bail out...that is an illusion

84 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:49:46pm

re: #73 albusteve

why would anybody read a book by Beck?...hahaha!...people really do?

I'll read Marx, Beck, Hitler, Mao, "0", Heffner, Vonnegut(sp?), Steinbeck...nothing wrong with being well read...and, if it applies, know what my enemy is thinking.

85 Dianna  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:51:27pm

I'm out. Take care!

86 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:51:41pm

Series: AMBNS, St. Louis Adjusted Monetary Base

It is hard for me to understand how this graph does not indicate inflation in the future.

87 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:51:46pm

re: #84 IslandLibertarian

I'll read Marx, Beck, Hitler, Mao, "0", Heffner, Vonnegut(sp?), Steinbeck...nothing wrong with being well read...and, if it applies, know what my enemy is thinking.

cool...resisting liberalism is not a full time job for me...Beck is no more valuable than Oprah Winfrey

88 opnion  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:51:46pm

re: #55 albusteve

people see things differently...where I see racism, they see a political statement and no more...people are just blind to the big picture..."attacking him is a distraction from the big issue"...what bigger issue can there be?...you just have to wonder about the average voter...I mean this woman probably makes a fine neighbor...it's over most peoples head I'm afraid


The Tea Parties are not a bad idea & from what I can tell the vast majority are decent people that don't like the direction of the nation.
The problem seems to be with some , maybe most of the organizers.
There are some truly fanatical people who have gotten into the leadership. Too bad.

89 Truck Monkey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:51:47pm

re: #79 pingjockey

Later folks, meds making it hard to focus!

I want some.

90 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:51:50pm

re: #85 Dianna

I'm out. Take care!

Have a wonderful weekend!

91 brookly red  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:52:07pm

re: #84 IslandLibertarian

I'll read Marx, Beck, Hitler, Mao, "0", Heffner, Vonnegut(sp?), Steinbeck...nothing wrong with being well read...and, if it applies, know what my enemy is thinking.

well can you at least buy a used copy so as not to support em?

92 callahan23  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:52:12pm

re: #79 pingjockey

Later folks, meds making it hard to focus!

All the best ping, take a good restful sleep. I wish all the best my thoughts are with you.

93 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:53:49pm
Lieutenant Kuylman: A lot of people say things will implode after we leave. They'll blame it on politics and religion, but it's not going to be any of that shit. It's going to be about straight power. It's going to be guys trying to one-up each other. It's going to be key people in cities just like this who will want to seize the power gaps. It's going to break down along tribal lines and these militias that we've put in place. When we pull out, there will be power vacuums. There will be pockets of people that we've put in power. I mean, everybody already has shaky alliances as it is. So what you're going to see is the straight seizing of power. People are going to try to put their own tags on it, but it's just about the seizure of power. It's not going to be Sunni or Shia, nothing like it. It will be all about men who want control.

I'm not sure that will be the meme they run with at jihad watch, though.

94 Randall Gross  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:53:53pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

All of that was a continuation of the meltdown that started last August/September from the decision to let Lehman Bros fail. Tarp (started by Bush and continued by Obama) is what saved us.

Actually I trace the first domino in the stack back to Jan 2008:

[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

95 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:54:10pm

re: #90 HoosierHoops

Incoming, your way. USPS.

96 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:54:16pm

re: #91 brookly red

that's what libraries are for.

97 Truck Monkey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:54:29pm

re: #89 Truck Monkey

I want some.

Tried to be funny but realize that I made a crack without knowing what the meds are for. Please take care Ping and feel better soon.

98 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:54:51pm

Charles, any chance you could get back on some media to de-bunk Nirthers on TV?

I know one doesn't usually "show a little leg" and make oneself available to the news/talk media, so are there POCs we can contact to ask them to bring you on? If you're up for it?

Either there is going to be an MSM shoutfest over this, or there needs to be--either way, you may be one of the best spokesmen for the anti-idiotarian side. Which is sad, given how many there should be. But there you are.

99 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:55:02pm

re: #95 Walter L. Newton

Incoming, your way. USPS.

You rock dude.. I am so grateful..Thank you

100 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:55:43pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

OT: Tea Party leadership stands behind racist doctor...
Tea Party Leader To McKalip: "We All Have Your Back My Friend!"

That's not good.

101 Eowyn2  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:55:48pm

re: #41 Dianna

Query: Does anyone know anything about This book?

It's written by Jeff Sharlet, of whom I know absolutely nothing.


If this review is even 1/2 correct, I wont bother with the book.
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

102 callahan23  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:55:57pm

re: #97 Truck Monkey

Tried to be funny but realize that I made a crack without knowing what the meds are for. Please take care Ping and feel better soon.

Better have a good old whiskey on me. ;-)
You are good people.

103 opnion  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:56:20pm

re: #83 albusteve

imagine what payrole tax cuts would have done..or reducing corporate and small business tax...dumping private money into the economy then would have prevented this meltdown...there is no federal money for a bail out...that is an illusion

You apparently didn't listen to Biden. We will spend our way out of bankruptcy.
The empirical evidence is clear that tax cuts are a stimulus.
The emperical evidence also shows that national health systems are dangerous to your life & health.

104 jcm  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:56:47pm

OT...

Iran plane crash kills at least 16

The Russian-made plane crashed in Mashhad in an emergency landing. An Iranian air crash last week killed 168. Experts point to the poor state of the airline industry, reliant on older Russian planes.
105 Truck Monkey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:57:10pm

re: #102 callahan23

Better have a good old whiskey on me. ;-)
You are good people.

I realized that I might have stepped in it as soon as I hit post. It's all good.

106 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:57:55pm

re: #100 Charles

That's not good.

understatement of the day...it's a disaster imo

107 MJ  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:58:01pm

Tony Alamo (born 1934 as Bernie Lazar Hoffman), the anti-Catholic goof ball Evangelist was found guilty of taking minors across state lines for sex:

[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

108 lobo91  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:58:01pm

re: #93 Sharmuta

I'm not sure that will be the meme they run with at jihad watch, though.

That's true, but only to an extent.

Politics, religion and power are all intertwined in Iraq.

109 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:58:26pm

re: #94 Thanos

Wow. Nice catch. But remember that was the first sign of a potential fall out. Those dominoes were being set up for decades. All of this was pretty much inevitable.

110 Eowyn2  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:59:04pm

re: #65 jcm

There have been a number of death row cases overturned, but I'm not aware of a executed person being exonerated afterwards.

Not justifying a incorrect prosecution and conviction but few of those exonerated had pristine records to begin with. In most cases suspicion was warranted. Very few cases are out and out "frame ups" by the cops, prosecutors etc... Overzealous, a lot of that in those case.


As in the NC case, overzealousness builds a house of cards and they come falling down at the less than hurricane winds.

111 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 2:59:07pm

re: #100 Charles

That's not good.

It's not surprising either.

112 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:00:33pm

re: #68 albusteve

the fact that the market crashed as far as it did is due mostly to donk inaction last fall and winter...that's the reality of it...the bailout that isn't...leave the economy alone and it will right itself and the market is struggling to move up in spite of the looming massive deficets and probable inflation...it's only one indicator

Yup. They should handle this the same way they handled the great depression of 1920.

113 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:00:48pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Wow. Nice catch. But remember that was the first sign of a potential fall out. Those dominoes were being set up for decades. All of this was pretty much inevitable.

yes, if you wanted it to happen...it could have been avoided, at least no worse than an average 6-8 mo recession...BO, Schumer, Frank all played key roles in the downfall of FM/FM

114 Eowyn2  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:00:48pm

re: #104 jcm

OT...

Iran plane crash kills at least 16

Does this surprise anyone? Will we now have to subsidize Iran's air industry - planes for petrol?

115 callahan23  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:01:12pm

re: #105 Truck Monkey

You and HoosierHoops helped me jump across the 4.000
Yea-haw - It is a 'Paddy' old Irish then.
CHEERS!!!

116 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:01:32pm

re: #94 Thanos

Actually I trace the first domino in the stack back to Jan 2008:

[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

It goes back to the CRA insanity.

117 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:01:56pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

It's not surprising either.

heh...you deserve mucho credit for your persistence...you called it

118 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:02:03pm

re: #100 Charles

That's not good.

Ok, now anyone out there have any questions about the Tea Party. This was one of the head honchos supporting an obvious racist picture, Photoshopped by a recognizable member, a licensed doctor no less, a brain surgeon.

Up to this point, some supporters have mentioned that it is only a hand full of kooks that have associated themselves with the Tea Party and these kooks do no reflect the leadership or the rest of the members.

Well, it does now. I wonder how many members they will loose over this? Anyone want to weigh in?

119 Truck Monkey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:02:52pm

re: #115 callahan23

You and HoosierHoops helped me jump across the 4.000
Yea-haw - It is a 'Paddy' old Irish then.
CHEERS!!!

YEEHAWWW!!! I raise my virtual glass in an internet toast.

120 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:03:12pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

OT: Tea Party leadership stands behind racist doctor...
Tea Party Leader To McKalip: "We All Have Your Back My Friend!"

I hope that becomes a thread.

121 lobo91  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:03:46pm

re: #114 Eowyn2

Does this surprise anyone? Will we now have to subsidize Iran's air industry - planes for petrol?

Certainly doesn't surprise me. I wouldn't get on a Tupolev airliner if it was being flown by the Russians who built it, much less one flown by Iranians.

122 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:03:57pm

BeigeBook July 10, 2009

Manufacturing activity declined or remained at a low level across most Districts. However, several Districts also reported that the outlook by manufacturers has improved somewhat. Demand for nonfinancial services contracted across Districts reporting on this segment. Retail spending remained soft as consumers focused on purchasing less expensive necessities and shied away from buying luxury goods. New car purchases remained depressed, with several Districts indicating that tight credit conditions were hampering auto sales. Travel and tourism activity also declined. A number of Districts reported an uptick in home sales, and many said that new home construction appeared to have stabilized at very low levels. Vacancy rates for commercial properties were rising in many parts of the country, while developers are finding financing for new commercial projects increasingly difficult to obtain. Most Districts reported that overall lending activity was stable or weak, but with mixed results across loan categories. Credit conditions remained stringent or tightened further. Energy activity continued to weaken across most Districts, and demand for natural resources remained depressed

.

123 jcm  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:03:59pm

re: #114 Eowyn2

Does this surprise anyone? Will we now have to subsidize Iran's air industry - planes for petrol?

Apologizes for sanctions that make them fly decrepit old planes.

/The Won

124 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:04:13pm

re: #116 debutaunt

That's pretty much a myth.
Video: The Crisis of Credit Visualized

It's very important to understand what really happened.

125 opnion  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:05:04pm

re: #113 albusteve

yes, if you wanted it to happen...it could have been avoided, at least no worse than an average 6-8 mo recession...BO, Schumer, Frank all played key roles in the downfall of FM/FM

Yup, but they have just moved the converstion forward.
Dodd & Frank really need to be investigated, but won't be.
Maybe a Republican president in 2012 can open an investigation.
You know like the BHO Administration wants to investigate Bush & his people.

126 callahan23  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:05:11pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

I hope that becomes a thread.

Your words have been heard. :-)

127 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:05:17pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

I hope that becomes a thread.

There it is. --->

128 jcm  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:05:57pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

I hope that becomes a thread.

Another 30 sleeper troll BBQ.

129 albusteve  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:06:09pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

I hope that becomes a thread.

maybe it should...kind of a paradox in a way...it's almost old news except for the magnitude

130 callahan23  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:06:40pm

re: #128 jcm

Another 30 sleeper troll BBQ.

And no one's touching it yet?!?

131 Truck Monkey  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:06:49pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, now anyone out there have any questions about the Tea Party. This was one of the head honchos supporting an obvious racist picture, Photoshopped by a recognizable member, a licensed doctor no less, a brain surgeon.

Up to this point, some supporters have mentioned that it is only a hand full of kooks that have associated themselves with the Tea Party and these kooks do no reflect the leadership or the rest of the members.

Well, it does now. I wonder how many members they will loose over this? Anyone want to weigh in?

I know some local tea party activists in my neighborhood. Kind, albiet a bit naive people. I am going to send the Doctors racist photoshop pic along with article to them in an e-mail. I have been telling them all along that the tea parties are not what they seem and that I would not be associated with the people running them. Now I believe they will understand. Definately threadworthy.

132 opnion  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:07:15pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, now anyone out there have any questions about the Tea Party. This was one of the head honchos supporting an obvious racist picture, Photoshopped by a recognizable member, a licensed doctor no less, a brain surgeon.

Up to this point, some supporters have mentioned that it is only a hand full of kooks that have associated themselves with the Tea Party and these kooks do no reflect the leadership or the rest of the members.

Well, it does now. I wonder how many members they will loose over this? Anyone want to weigh in?

I think that they will lose members. This doctor clearly meant to be racist & most people don't want that kind of association.
They need a purge at the top.

133 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:07:32pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

That's pretty much a myth.
Video: The Crisis of Credit Visualized

It's very important to understand what really happened.

Killgore, my daughter worked at Bank of America and was told to use foodstamps as assets in making home loans! Her manager quit rather than use the new regulations as a basis for loans they knew could not be paid. It is absolutely true. It took time, but it had the intended result.

134 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:09:21pm

re: #14 Ward Cleaver

That was me. Hmmm... Let's see what happens next. What happens when he tries to get back into the presidential mansion? That's when it could get interesting.

CNN is so in the tank ...

LAS MANOS, Nicaragua , July 24 (Reuters) - Ousted President Manuel
Zelaya took a few symbolic steps inside Honduras on Friday but then
backed away from a confrontation with Honduran security forces waiting
to arrest him.

...

Looks like he's a long way from reentering the mansion.

135 calcajun  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:09:27pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

I hope that becomes a thread.

"We have your back" is another way of sayin' "your ass is ours".

136 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:10:31pm

re: #115 callahan23

You and HoosierHoops helped me jump across the 4.000
Yea-haw - It is a 'Paddy' old Irish then.
CHEERS!!!

Three on two break..Hoopster is driving the ball down court...Steve Downey breaks open../I never liked him
The Hoopster fakes the Pass to Steve and throws to Callahan...And Callahan slams it home! What a play!
Good play Callahan!
Congrads on 4k updings...You deserved everyone of them...

137 lobo91  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:11:28pm

Hmm...Bret Baier just said that the Dem leadership in the House is threatening to "cut the Blue Dogs out of the debate" on the health care bill.

Apparently, Pelosi and company can't do simple math and figur out that without the Blue Dog votes, they're in the minority.

Of course, we already knew they were math-challenged, since they claim that they're going to increase benefits, give them to more people, and lower cost simultaneously...

138 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:12:23pm

Your text to link...

Employment and Wages
Labor market conditions continued to be weak across the country, with wages generally remaining flat or falling. Kansas City, Dallas, and San Francisco reported that businesses were cutting or freezing wages, and Boston cited wage freezes in the retail sector. The Chicago District reported that the downward pressure on wages was abating somewhat there, as firms turned instead to cutting hours or jobs outright to contain labor costs. Firms in the Atlanta and Dallas Districts also reported having to cut hours to reduce costs. In addition, the Boston and San Francisco Districts also mentioned employers' plans to scale back employee benefit programs.

In the service sector, the Boston and Cleveland Districts reported relatively stable retail employment, while the Richmond District reported continuing reductions. The Richmond, Chicago, Minneapolis, Dallas, and San Francisco Districts noted that firms providing professional services, such as accounting, consulting, and legal services, continued to report staff reductions, while the Boston and New York Districts reported weak demand for financial services workers, with ongoing layoffs at large financial firms. The Boston and Richmond Districts also reported reductions in information technology jobs. The Atlanta, Chicago, and St. Louis Districts reported that some state and local governments faced hiring freezes or outright job cuts.

In manufacturing, while employment levels remained low, several Districts saw signs that job losses may be moderating. The New York, Richmond, Atlanta, and Kansas City Districts all reported less severe employment reductions in recent weeks, with some optimism that manufacturing employment levels may soon stabilize. This, however, was balanced by reports of ongoing manufacturing employment losses in the Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, and St. Louis Districts.

Staffing services firms reported some modest signs of recovery, with the Boston, Atlanta, Chicago, and Dallas Districts all reporting some stabilization in activity or a slight improvement in employment trends. The Cleveland and Richmond Districts, however, continued to report that activity among staffing services firms was weak.

139 Randall Gross  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:12:37pm

re: #100 Charles

That's not good.

Especially since it's dawned even on McKallip as to how stupid he was.

140 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:13:05pm

re: #103 opnion

You apparently didn't listen to Biden. We will spend our way out of bankruptcy.
The empirical evidence is clear that tax cuts are a stimulus.
The emperical evidence also shows that national health systems are dangerous to your life & health.


Obama admited during the campaign --or was it boasted? --that empirical evidence of revenue generation is not the basis of his tax policy. I never suspected that evidence of economic growth was the basis of his stimulus plan, either.

141 callahan23  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:15:48pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops
LOL and thanks my friend.

142 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:16:28pm

re: #140 nikis-knight

Obama admited during the campaign --or was it boasted? --that empirical evidence of revenue generation is not the basis of his tax policy. I never suspected that evidence of economic growth was the basis of his stimulus plan, either.

Wasn't there something in one of the primary debates when presented with the historical numbers about the effects raising capital gains tax rates has on overall revenues O's comeback was something like (paraphrasing) "You might be right [high capital gains rates result in lower net revenues/growth] but I want it to be fair and that's not fair"?

143 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:16:31pm

Hmmm...

A completely non-scientific Facebook poll:

Are you in favor of a Government run healthcare system?

Yes: 93,494 (21.7%)
No: 322,203 (74.8%)
Maybe: 14,980 (3.5%)

Either that plan is in deep kimchee, or the script kiddies are conservatives this time.

144 Pianobuff  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:18:56pm

re: #143 haakondahl

Hmmm...

A completely non-scientific Facebook poll:

Either that plan is in deep kimchee, or the script kiddies are conservatives this time.

They better be careful about the wording. Some kind of memo has come out banning the phrase "government-run healthcare". Seriously.

145 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:25:40pm

re: #141 callahan23

LOL and thanks my friend.

You are good people.. Hopefully the next time i visit our office in Amsterdam I can drive the MB rental to Germany and trash your town for the weekend.
A couple of my buddies a few cubes over rented a MB and drove the Autoban(sic) at stupid speeds and brag about it all the time...It's getting old...I will get them back soon...
I lost your email addy...We'll need to get back in contact

146 haakondahl  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:27:02pm

re: #144 Pianobuff

They better be careful about the wording. Some kind of memo has come out banning the phrase "government-run healthcare". Seriously.

I have been looking for another poll which is not worded so ominously:

here's one:

Should the U.S. adopt a Universal healthcare system?

No: 132,711 (70.0%)
Yes: 55,814 (29.4%)
I really don't care.: 1,079 (0.6)

REMARKABLY consistent.

147 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:32:58pm

re: #142 Pianobuff

Wasn't there something in one of the primary debates when presented with the historical numbers about the effects raising capital gains tax rates has on overall revenues O's comeback was something like (paraphrasing) "You might be right [high capital gains rates result in lower net revenues/growth] but I want it to be fair and that's not fair"?


Yeah, that's what I'm referencing. It was a primary debate; I think the abc anchor got some flak for that, too.

148 legalpad  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:37:05pm

re: #45 lobo91

If you want to know what's actually taking place on the ground, ask the NCOs.

Right. That's what he is. He's in Iraq.

149 callahan23  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:38:09pm

re: #145 HoosierHoops

Email is on its way. Driving fast is natural to me ;-)
Not so the typing.

150 grambo46  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:42:42pm

re: #134 Bobibutu

CNN is so in the tank ...

LAS MANOS, Nicaragua , July 24 (Reuters) - Ousted President Manuel
Zelaya took a few symbolic steps inside Honduras on Friday but then
backed away from a confrontation with Honduran security forces waiting
to arrest him.

...

Looks like he's a long way from reentering the mansion.

I spoke to Honduran friends (in Honduras) yesterday. While we hear of impending civil war, they actually don't seem very worried. They say most of the Mel supporters are paid shills of Chaves. This is common knowledge. My friends say they (the Mel shills) will bolt in a heartbeat if it gets rough. They are oncerned, to be sure ... but confident of the outcome.
I sent them the "birds of a feather" cartoon and they were hugely amused.
I am pulling for them ... there are so many very good people down there.

151 David Simon  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 4:45:54pm
It's theoretically possible that what we've seen is not contradictory. Some Iraqis are pro-American. Others are not.

The same can be said about Americans.

I don't understand folks who talk about "the Iraqi people" as if they're a monolith. Even in totalitarian dictatorships not everyone thinks and acts the same way.

152 David Simon  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 4:51:04pm
We were in the predominantly Sunni neighborhood of Adhamiyah. It was a stronghold of support for Saddam Hussein's government, and a stronghold of support for Al Qaeda more recently. Iraq's Sunni Arabs, who make up around 15-20 percent of the country's population, are by the far the most anti-American. Yet Adhamiyah appeared, on the surface at least, to be no more hostile to Americans than Iraqi Kurdistan.

Wow, that's really saying something. Two years ago, the district of Adhamiyah was one of the most dangerous places in the country.

153 David Simon  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 4:54:44pm
The main reason is because our community is too selfish. They love themselves very much. All they think about is their stomach. They want to enjoy themselves, and everyone else can go to hell. You should know that.

Again, it sounds like he's talking about Americans (so long as you swap genitals for stomach).

154 David Simon  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 5:08:04pm
And they know how to play the game, too. If they cry abuse, it might get us in trouble. They watch TV.

Yes they do. I hope there's a special place in hell reserved for the likes of Pelosi, Durbin et al.

155 David Simon  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 5:11:58pm
Believe me, Maliki is a dictator in Iraq. If the American government doesn't watch him, he will become a dictator in no time. In four or five years, he will look like Saddam Hussein. Keep on him. He wants to rule. He wants to have the power. Everyone who works in his office are his relatives. He will bring all his tribe.

He made a deal with Mookie to become Prime Minister. That's all you need to know.

156 David Simon  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 5:17:11pm

All in all, a terrific post. Now, it's time to hit Mr. Totten's tip jar.

157 Outrider  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 7:14:03pm
...We have the Iraqi Advisor Task Force. They aren’t spies. That’s illegal...

spies illegal? Can't use informers?

What the hell is wrong with using spies and informers to gauge the mood of the populace? And no doubt increase the probability of picking up a lot of useful intelligence in the meantime?

We need to go back to school and learn how to fight a counter-insurgency war.

158 Curt  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:45:39am

During the SE Asia Wargames (I just missed being a contestant, I had to settle for a non-hot Cold War), a gentleman named William Lederer wrote "Our Own Worst Enemy." He noted (published in 1968) we lacked a useful understanding of Vietnamese history and the language and the culture, which, made us unequipped to do the job of that conflict well.

I stumbled across the book in the late 80's while looking for something else in the library. The book, by itself, sounds like one more shrill voice against the US, but...he was a retired Navy Captain, who served most of his time in the Pacific, to include combat in WWII, and later he was the co-author of "The Ugly American."

Now, I think his work is a good set of instructions for how we go about business anywhere overseas, besides in the UK or Canada.

What made me sit up and pay attention to this was stumbling across "A Viet Cong Memoir" by Tang. He was the VC Minister of Justice, who eventually fled VN for France, as he found out after 1975 what the real agenda of the North was. Anyhow, what was illuminating was the things Lederer was speculating on, were shown to be fact by the second book, each one being unrelated to the other.

Lesson for foreign policy: Do your homework. Know people will lie to you, and some you are working with in these circumstances are actually the enemy, and are intent on passing dis-information. Be prepared for it and make sure you have the ability to cross check data reliably.


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