NYT: The Story Behind Dr. Tiller’s Murder

US News • Views: 2,601

The Sunday edition of the New York Times has a very good, in-depth piece by David Barstow on Dr. George Tiller, and the history of fanaticism, threats, media provocation, and violence leading up to his murder: An Abortion Battle, Fought to the Death.

Long ago, he had accepted the possibility he might be assassinated. It was something he and his fellow abortion providers had quietly discussed, and friends said he had lost count of all the death threats.

Even so, there was a mood of stunned rage when local abortion rights advocates gathered the Friday after his killing at First Unitarian Universalist Church in Wichita. …

But it was a demoralized group. In Topeka, the state capital, they have long been outmuscled by conservative Christians, who have been steadily chipping away at abortion rights. One woman, a lobbyist for abortion rights, described how some legislators literally turned their backs when she testified.

Gail Finney, a junior member of the Legislature, stood and asked why there had not been more outcry from the state’s leaders over Dr. Tiller’s killing. “Where’s the anguish?” Ms. Finney said.

Not a single Kansas politician of statewide prominence showed up the next morning for Dr. Tiller’s funeral, which drew 1,200 mourners. Nor were any at Reformation Lutheran the next day, the first Sunday service after his death.

In the foyer where he was shot, the juice and coffee table had been turned into a memorial, with Dr. Tiller’s photograph next to a basket of buttons he had passed out by the boxful to patients, employees and friends. “Attitude is Everything,” they said.

Outside, Pastor Michelson greeted families with hugs. “There was no way I was going to hide inside,” he later said.

The Tiller clan took their usual spot in the pews, and Mrs. Tiller, radiant in red, was embraced again and again. Flowers from her husband’s funeral framed the altar.

The church was more crowded than usual.

In his sermon, Pastor Michelson openly acknowledged his own apprehensions. “Our sanctuary has been violated,” he said. He urged his congregation to rise above fear and anger, and took note of the supportive letters and e-mail messages from churches all over the country.

Only later, during an interview, did he mention all the hate mail.

Read the whole thing…

UPDATE at 7/27/09 5:36:23 pm:

Accused killer Scott Roeder has given interviews to the Kansas City Star, making it very clear that the motivation was political: Man accused in Tiller slaying foresees a long time in prison.

Roeder said he felt “relief and joy” over the shooting.

“And I’ve heard that three women have actually changed their minds and had their babies because there’s no availability here,” he said. “Wichita has been abortion-free since that time.

“That’s total elation.”

Portrait of a domestic terrorist.

Roeder also claims that he donated large sums of money to Operation Rescue, but Operation Rescue is denying it.

Jump to bottom

740 comments
1 set it in  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:16:40pm

Ahh yes the NT times..cough LOL

2 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:17:44pm

re: #1 set it in

Ahh yes the NT times..cough LOL

Something in your throat?

3 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:19:32pm

Wow, hitting a registration wall for the NYT, that's a first

4 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:20:21pm

When someone comes in via AOL and starts spouting extremist crap like you just did in the previous thread, I can only say ... bye now.

5 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:20:29pm

Re Gail Finnney's question:

Where's the anguish

... indeed?

6 legalpad  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:20:46pm

Yeesh! What a long article!

7 zombie  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:21:15pm

Vigilanteism is among the worst of crimes, because it contributes directly to the breakdown of society. It's sort of a lesser form of treason, in a sense.

Whatever your views on any political issue, and even if you think someone is a criminal, it is not your role or your right to enforce the law or your views on anyone. Let the police and the courts do their job. And if there's nothing they can do -- then that's the way it is. "Enforcing" your version of the law only leads to anarchy.

8 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:21:31pm
“He has killed more babies than he has saved,” Mr. Gietzen said of Mr. Roeder. “I don’t care how much fan mail he is getting.”

indeed.

9 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:22:17pm

re: #3 Thanos

Wow, hitting a registration wall for the NYT, that's a first

You mean, clicking the link did that? It isn't supposed to...

10 zombie  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:22:27pm

re: #7 zombie

Coreection:

"It's sort of a lesser form of treason, in a sense."

should be

"It's sort of a lesser form of sedition, in a sense."

PIMF

11 VegasRick  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:22:46pm

re: #4 Charles

When someone comes in via AOL and starts spouting extremist crap like you just did in the previous thread, I can only say ... bye now.

What is it with all these jerks lately. Been registered for years and 0 - 5 posts, then start spouting crap? I don't get it.

12 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:22:49pm

re: #9 Charles

You mean, clicking the link did that? It isn't supposed to...

I was able to read the article with no problems

13 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:23:33pm

re: #9 Charles

You mean, clicking the link did that? It isn't supposed to...

Both links I hit the reg wall, others don't appear to be doing so?

14 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:23:56pm

re: #11 VegasRick

What is it with all these jerks lately. Been registered for years and 0 - 5 posts, then start spouting crap? I don't get it.

2 year old account. suddenly appears with a bad attitude, I have to assume sock puppet from a banned lizard

15 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:24:17pm

re: #13 Thanos

Both links I hit the reg wall, others don't appear to be doing so?

Hrmm. I had been scanning their archives earlier, maybe a hung cookie. Let me restart browser

16 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:24:25pm

re: #7 zombie

I agree. I am quite pro-life for many reasons not important here, but I could never, ever bring myself to condone such behavior. As it stands, abortion is legal. I can be sickened by that fact, but that is where it ends. I do not understand the mentality that justifies taking the life of Dr. Tiller.

17 freetoken  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:24:35pm

re: #13 Thanos

No wall for me ...

18 VegasRick  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:25:16pm

re: #14 Shug

2 year old account. suddenly appears with a bad attitude, I have to assume sock puppet from a banned lizard

Right. I keep forget the sock thing. I don't think I could get one even if I wanted to, which I don't.

19 researchok  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:26:20pm

I wonder who is more objectionable- Tiller or the guy who exploited poor people and sold kidneys.

20 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:27:13pm

re: #19 researchok

I wonder who is more objectionable- Tiller or the guy who exploited poor people and sold kidneys.

The guy who exploited poor people and sold kidneys is in jail.

21 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:27:31pm

re: #2 Charles

I think that must have been a comment re the NYT's well-known reputation for fair and thoroughly unbiased straight news reporting. ... not necessarily relating to this particular piece.
There used to be this notion that the front page, above-the-fold was reserved for reporting, not analysis and editorial content. Howell Raines through that in the toilet, and Keller has flushed.

22 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:28:20pm

re: #3 Thanos

Wow, hitting a registration wall for the NYT, that's a first

Here, too. And I haven't been anywhere near the NYT for a good while...
Just ran CC cleaner, also!

23 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:28:22pm

PIMF, ' threw' that.

24 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:28:29pm

re: #19 researchok

There are arguments to be made for an open private market for kidneys, see Virginia Postrel's posts on kidney blogging.
[Link: search.atomz.com...]

25 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:29:05pm

re: #9 Charles

You mean, clicking the link did that? It isn't supposed to...

Getting through now, must have had a rotten cookie.

26 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:29:48pm

re: #21 tradewind

There used to be this notion that the front page, above-the-fold was reserved for reporting, not analysis and editorial content. Howell Raines through that in the toilet, and Keller has flushed.

They have a lot of talented people, though, and they're not worthless. For these kinds of in-depth articles they're among the best, in fact.

27 researchok  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:30:03pm

re: #20 Alouette

Where he belongs.

28 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:30:43pm

re: #11 VegasRick

What is it with all these jerks lately. Been registered for years and 0 - 5 posts, then start spouting crap? I don't get it.

I wonder if Charles has considered a comments per year requirement for maintaining an account? My sense is that these "five posts in three years" people never turn out to be desirable members of the community. But maybe that's being unfair to certain shy lurkers.

29 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:31:56pm

re: #28 Last Mohican

I wonder if Charles has considered a comments per year requirement for maintaining an account? My sense is that these "five posts in three years" people never turn out to be desirable members of the community. But maybe that's being unfair to certain shy lurkers.

no true lurker

30 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:32:30pm
hit him with lawsuits, legislation and regulatory complaints; and protested relentlessly, even at his church.


Phelpsian tactics.

31 KingKenrod  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:34:47pm

This is a great article, the way journalism should be. Barstow doesn't pull any punches about Tiller's abortion business or the fanatics who tried every way possible to shut him down.

32 researchok  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:35:32pm

re: #24 Thanos

There are arguments to be made for an open private market for kidneys, see Virginia Postrel's posts on kidney blogging.
[Link: search.atomz.com...]

Agreed. A market for organs may not be a bad thing.

As for abortion, while I personally disapprove, I have mixed feelings.

This is a personal experience.

33 neocon hippie  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:35:36pm

re: #3 Thanos

I hit the same wall with the Washington Post today for the first time I can remember in a very long time. Weird.

34 captdiggs  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:35:37pm

When will the NYT be doing an in depth story on the reasons and cause of the murder of Pvt. William A. Long in Arkansas?

35 gregb  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:37:14pm

re: #20 Alouette

I don't know. Not reporting a rape of a minor might rank up there.

Was this the kidney guy in the bathtub of ice in the hotel room?
[Link: www.snopes.com...]

36 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:37:14pm

The only objectionable part of this story, to me, is the way all the anti-abortion hatemongers in it are NOW pretending that they're sorry about Tiller's death. They're only sorry because it means a loss of income for them.

Now they're whining about how his murder sets their cause back and he was a "worthy adversary"? Give me a break. These are the people who helped get him killed.

It's an excellent article and I hope everyone reads it. It portrays Tiller and describes his practice (and the many efforts to shut him down or stop him).

Tiller was a brave and good man murdered in the vestibule of his church while serving as an usher. He died there while the service went on.

37 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:37:55pm

See the update above ...

38 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:38:19pm
39 Wendya  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:38:43pm

re: #7 zombie

Vigilanteism is among the worst of crimes, because it contributes directly to the breakdown of society. It's sort of a lesser form of treason, in a sense.

Whatever your views on any political issue, and even if you think someone is a criminal, it is not your role or your right to enforce the law or your views on anyone. Let the police and the courts do their job. And if there's nothing they can do -- then that's the way it is. "Enforcing" your version of the law only leads to anarchy.

Vigilantism has a very long history in this country. It often occurs because there is a lack of real or perceived action taken by law enforcement. You see it when there is a breakdown of the rule of law; it is indeed a symptom.

The anti-abortion people who take violent action aren't doing so because of an absence of the rule of law. They're doing it because they don't like the laws.

40 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:39:27pm

re: #36 iceweasel

The only objectionable part of this story, to me, is the way all the anti-abortion hatemongers in it are NOW pretending that they're sorry about Tiller's death. They're only sorry because it means a loss of income for them.

Now they're whining about how his murder sets their cause back and he was a "worthy adversary"? Give me a break. These are the people who helped get him killed.

It's an excellent article and I hope everyone reads it. It portrays Tiller and describes his practice (and the many efforts to shut him down or stop him).

Tiller was a brave and good man murdered in the vestibule of his church while serving as an usher. He died there while the service went on.

I dread the day when people like Tiller feel they need to be armed to protect their point of view and their lives...woe is America

41 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:40:06pm

re: #36 iceweasel

The only objectionable part of this story, to me, is the way all the anti-abortion hatemongers in it are NOW pretending that they're sorry about Tiller's death. They're only sorry because it means a loss of income for them.

Now they're whining about how his murder sets their cause back and he was a "worthy adversary"? Give me a break. These are the people who helped get him killed.

the bold part is true.
People who are pro life, not pro fanatic are expressing this desire.

most pro life people do not and never have condoned murder.

I agree with the rest of what you said

42 VegasRick  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:40:08pm

re: #34 captdiggs

When will the NYT be doing an in depth story on the reasons and cause of the murder of Pvt. William A. Long in Arkansas?

When hell freezes over.

43 Altermite  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:40:51pm

thank youre: #40 albusteve

I dread the day when people like Tiller feel they need to be armed to protect their point of view and their lives...woe is America

He already felt the need. He spent a huge amount of the revenue from his practice investing in armed guards, bulletproof glass, security cameras, armoured cars for his practice, and so on and so forth.

44 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:41:47pm

re: #11 VegasRick

It is interesting this phenomena started when we had a few new liberal minded folks come front and center. What these "lurkers" failed to realize is the majority of those who frequent this board have always embraced rational* debate from all sides. The new, more liberal minded folks discovered with KT knew long before I joined this board - we don't attack thoughts and ideas personally (we may attack thoughts and ideas, however!). I do believe some of the newer posters have sowed a few seeds of discord with a purpose, but that doesn't justify responding back with nothing more than ugly posts.


*key word

45 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:41:50pm

This is what Bill O'Reilly was saying about Dr. Tiller in 2006 on his radio show:

46 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:42:19pm

re: #37 Charles

See the update above ...


I personally don't think Roeder cares about women or the unborn.

I think he uses his defense of the unborn as an outlet for his unbridled rage.
He is filled with hate.

47 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:42:26pm

I loathe the New York Times. I have resolved that I will never pay a cent for their rag of a so-called newspaper, although, perhaps hypocritically, I am willing to click on their site to read articles like this sometimes. And this was an excellent article. A true piece of professional journalism.

48 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:42:55pm

re: #40 albusteve

I dread the day when people like Tiller feel they need to be armed to protect their point of view and their lives...woe is America

That day happened a long time ago, albusteve. Tiller had federal marshals as bodyguards for years. He wore a bulletproof vest and drove an armoured car to work every day. His clinic had floodlights, bulletproof glass, and cameras.

And a coward gunned him down when he was ushering one Sunday morning at his church.

49 lobo91  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:42:58pm

re: #34 captdiggs

When will the NYT be doing an in depth story on the reasons and cause of the murder of Pvt. William A. Long in Arkansas?

I'm sure we'll see that right after the in-depth expose of Obamacare.

50 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:44:35pm

Hey, New York Times -- if you need an endorsement from a lowly blogger, there's mine: "They're not worthless."

51 VegasRick  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:45:14pm

re: #44 ArmyWife

It is interesting this phenomena started when we had a few new liberal minded folks come front and center. What these "lurkers" failed to realize is the majority of those who frequent this board have always embraced rational* debate from all sides. The new, more liberal minded folks discovered with KT knew long before I joined this board - we don't attack thoughts and ideas personally (we may attack thoughts and ideas, however!). I do believe some of the newer posters have sowed a few seeds of discord with a purpose, but that doesn't justify responding back with nothing more than ugly posts.


*key word

Great point!

52 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:48:09pm
Dr. Tiller’s clinic Web site boasted that he had more experience with late-term abortions “than anyone else currently practicing in the Western Hemisphere.” Since 1998, interviews and state statistics show, his clinic performed about 4,800 late-term abortions, at least 22 weeks into gestation, around the earliest point at which a fetus can survive outside the womb. At 22 weeks, the average fetus is 11 inches long, weighs a pound and is starting to respond to noise.

Anybody still around who wants to claim Bloody Terry's "lying for Jesus" number of abortions is true?

53 Danny  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:48:10pm

I'll take your word that it was a good expose. I prefer not to visit NYT's site.

54 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:50:20pm

re: #36 iceweasel

Tiller was a brave and good man murdered in the vestibule of his church while serving as an usher. He died there while the service went on.

"...Shrewd and resourceful, Dr. Tiller made himself the nation’s pre-eminent abortion practitioner"
- David Barstow

This was cold blooded murder, that's obvious. But he sure as hell is no hero, my friend. This was the man's biz, no more no less.

"Shrewd and resourceful"

55 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:50:40pm

re: #46 Shug

I personally don't think Roeder cares about women or the unborn.

I think he uses his defense of the unborn as an outlet for his unbridled rage.
He is filled with hate.

Watch the documentary Charles posted on the Army of God.

None of those men care about women. They're all quite forthright about how much they don't like women, and how God has 'told them' not to take a wife. One of them even circumscised himself.

Yet they all LOVE babies, and LOVE women so much that they conspire to bomb women's health centres.

All the people involved in anti-choice violence, whether they are men or women (the person who first shot Tiller in 92 was female)-- all of them are filled with hate, and they especially hate women.

56 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:51:14pm

I have to say that if I had demonized an individual person at LGF as badly as Bill O'Reilly did to Dr. Tiller ("Tiller the Baby Killer," repeated ad nauseam), and that person ended up shot dead in a church, I'd have a little trouble sleeping.

57 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:52:25pm

re: #48 iceweasel

That day happened a long time ago, albusteve. Tiller had federal marshals as bodyguards for years. He wore a bulletproof vest and drove an armoured car to work every day. His clinic had floodlights, bulletproof glass, and cameras.

And a coward gunned him down when he was ushering one Sunday morning at his church.

yeah, I blabbing in absolutes...I am an armed gun owner and I'm appalled by the whole incident...I'm pissed on a couple of different levels, but an American citizen is dead and he was within the law regardless

58 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:53:01pm

Charles, I'll second your endorsement. In my book, the New York Times is Not Worthless.

That's the most ringing endorsement they're gonna get from me.

59 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:53:21pm

re: #54 The Shadow Do

"...Shrewd and resourceful, Dr. Tiller made himself the nation’s pre-eminent abortion practitioner"
- David Barstow

This was cold blooded murder, that's obvious. But he sure as hell is no hero, my friend. This was the man's biz, no more no less.

"Shrewd and resourceful"

Then you didn't read the article, don't care what his friends, family, coworkers, and most of all PATIENTS say about him.

60 MJ  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:54:51pm

re: #56 Charles

I have to say that if I had demonized an individual person at LGF as badly as Bill O'Reilly did to Dr. Tiller ("Tiller the Baby Killer," repeated ad nauseam), and that person ended up shot dead in a church, I'd have a little trouble sleeping.

That schmuck O'Reilly is too arrogant to worry about whether he might have promoted murder. O'Reilly wallows in the smug self-satisfaction of a demigod.

61 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:54:53pm

I have less reason to listen to Bill O'Reilly than I do to read the Times...what a world eh?

62 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:55:26pm

re: #58 Last Mohican


I'm sure I've called the NYT worthless at some point - and worse. This is a great piece, but it doesn't negate what they've done to the Military. Is it ok to say one notch above worthless, but all the other ugly things I've said still stand? ;)

63 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:56:20pm

re: #61 albusteve

I have less reason to listen to Bill O'Reilly than I do to read the Times...what a world eh?

I cannot stand watching Bill O'Reilly. His smugness knows no bounds.

64 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:56:48pm

re: #59 iceweasel

I'm sure he was loved by his friends and family. I'm sure he was a respectable human being, a good person. But not a hero. This doesn't, however, distract from his senseless death.

65 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:56:53pm

re: #45 Charles

Wow. "If I could get my hands on him...can't do that of course, it's just a figure of speech he heh"

66 notamolly  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:58:00pm

re: #59 iceweasel

Then you didn't read the article, don't care what his friends, family, coworkers, and most of all PATIENTS say about him.

Read the article and although Roeder is scum, his victim was no angel. And the killing was despicable. Pro life means holding life sacred.

67 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:58:13pm

re: #63 Racer X

I cannot stand watching Bill O'Reilly. His smugness knows no bounds.

the thought of watching TV news repulses me...I have no use for any of them...I like hot dog shows and football tho!

68 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:58:28pm

adios folks

69 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:58:47pm
70 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:59:59pm

re: #64 ArmyWife

I'm sure he was loved by his friends and family. I'm sure he was a respectable human being, a good person. But not a hero. This doesn't, however, distract from his senseless death.

he was no hero...probably even an asshole and a freakzoid...but he was a citizen living under American rule of law...that means everything to me

71 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:00:09pm

By the way, I heard Rush Limbaugh blow the racist dog whistle today.

He was ranting about proposed warning labels for hot dogs, and said (paraphrasing): "Soon they'll ban Oreos ... well, not until Barack Obama leaves office, though."

Smell the love!

72 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:00:18pm

re: #55 iceweasel

Watch the documentary Charles posted on the Army of God.

None of those men care about women. They're all quite forthright about how much they don't like women, and how God has 'told them' not to take a wife. One of them even circumscised himself.

Yet they all LOVE babies, and LOVE women so much that they conspire to bomb women's health centres.

All the people involved in anti-choice violence, whether they are men or women (the person who first shot Tiller in 92 was female)-- all of them are filled with hate, and they especially hate women.

That's something I didn't know about them until I watched that documentary. They really do see women as snares of the devil.

73 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:00:37pm

Those who didn't read the article may have missed this paragraph:

"Pastor Michelson said he and Dr. Tiller sometimes spoke about abortion. This, he said, is how he learned of adoptions Dr. Tiller sometimes arranged for his patients, in some cases even having women live with his family until after childbirth. “He was giving women in the most desperate of situations options when they had none,” he said."

74 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:00:37pm

re: #59 iceweasel

Then you didn't read the article, don't care what his friends, family, coworkers, and most of all PATIENTS say about him.

I repeat, the author describes him as "shrewd and resourceful". That is no pejorative. It is not disrespect for his family for whom he provided quite well by all reports. But he sure is not ready for canonization. This entire business is ugly from every perspective. A tragedy really.

75 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:01:24pm

re: #71 Charles

By the way, I heard Rush Limbaugh blow the racist dog whistle today.

He was ranting about proposed warning labels for hot dogs, and said (paraphrasing): "Soon they'll ban Oreos ... well, not until Barack Obama leaves office, though."

Smell the love!

that's half my diet right there!...Bill sucks

76 lobo91  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:02:13pm

re: #67 albusteve

the thought of watching TV news repulses me...I have no use for any of them...I like hot dog shows and football tho!

About all I watch anymore is the Military Channel and Rockies games. 500 channels of satellite TV, and I watch 2...

Being able to watch the Rockies in HD on a 92" screen is nice, though.

77 slotgun  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:02:14pm

Jeebus. Somebody on this board called George Tiller "a brave and good man"? I find that remarkable. I lived in Wichita for 14 years, and I can tell you that way too much of what was taking place on Kellogg Avenue was the same thing Tiller got in the end: Execution. He was on record talking about huge numbers of late-term, viable-baby abortions he performed, when there wasn't a damn thing wrong with the baby involved. He openly defied the law, the letter of the law, and the spirit of Roe v. Wade. Roeder is a wombat and a jackhole, a lunatic who took things into his own hands against everything that most rational people believe. But let's not pretend for a second that just because he was robbed of his own life, George Tiller was some sort of civic saint. He shouldn't have been gunned down. (Sad that I have to say that to counter in advance the mouth-foamers who classify all of us pro-lifers as loons just because we saw Tiller for what he was.) But the fact is that some kids, somewhere, are alive today because Tiller ain't. I won't cry about that. And I certainly won't deify the man because he met the fate he did. Shame on those who would use his death by tring to score rhetorical points in the abortion argument--just as those who try to justify his death by posting a "scorecard" of Tiller vs. Feti should be shamed.

78 yochanan  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:03:23pm

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
this is a big story.
democrats = crooks r us

79 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:03:55pm

re: #77 slotgun

B'bye. Take care. Other sites will be more sympathetic to you.

80 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:04:04pm

re: #78 yochanan

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
this is a big story.
democrats = crooks r us

Most ethical Congress evah!

81 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:04:10pm

OT: Sweden has asked Venezuela to explain how Swedish-made weapons ended up in the hands of Colombia's Farc rebels.

Swedish officials said the anti-tank rocket launchers had been sold to Venezuela in the 1980s.

Colombian troops recovered the weapons in a raid on a Farc camp. Colombia has long claimed that Venezuela has backed the left-wing rebels.

The Caracas government denies this, and dismissed the latest reports as an attempt to harm Venezuela.

In response, Venezuelan Interior Minister Tareck El Aissami said the allegations were a "media show".

"It's part of a campaign against our people, our government and our institutions," he added.

The Venezuelan Interior Minister has a very interesting name, doesn't he?

82 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:05:03pm

re: #77 slotgun
"Deify the man?" That's just stupid.

83 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:05:28pm

KCTV5 on Phil Kline, the budding dominionist who Johnson co. voters deselected over the O'Reilly leaks among other things:

[Link: www.kctv5.com...]

I think he's now teaching at some religious college or institution somewhere.

84 freetoken  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:05:35pm

re: #71 Charles

I wondered how long it would be before the temptation would overtake him... so many other "conservative" talk show hosts have been tempted by the potential audience gain by courting the various fringe groups (case in point Roger Hedgecock, to whom I used to enjoy listening when he first started his radio show after he resigned as mayor.)

85 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:06:07pm

personally I am sick to death of the O'Reilly, Beck, Coulter coalition...toss a couple more in there...as an old time conservative I'm appalled and digusted with these pimps...TV$$$...I don't even want to hear their names mentioned and that goes for Fox too...too bad the sense makers have to work for the money whores

86 Attaboid  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:06:10pm

I get a registration page and bugmenot doesn't work (doesn't cycle thru additional logins either). I think NYTimes knows I'm in Canada.

87 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:06:39pm

re: #81 Kenneth

OT: Sweden has asked Venezuela to explain how Swedish-made weapons ended up in the hands of Colombia's Farc rebels.


The Venezuelan Interior Minister has a very interesting name, doesn't he?

Tareck = Tariq?

88 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:07:31pm

re: #86 Attaboid

I get a registration page and bugmenot doesn't work (doesn't cycle thru additional logins either). I think NYTimes knows I'm in Canada.

I'd share your outrage, if I knew what the hell any of that meant!!

//

89 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:08:28pm

Director of 'The Path to 9/11' a Christian Reconstructionist

On Friday, September 8, just forty-eight hours before ABC planned to air its so-called "docudrama," The Path to 9/11, Robert Iger, CEO of ABC's corporate parent, the Walt Disney Company, was presented with incontrovertible evidence outlining the involvement of that film's screenwriter and director in a concerted right-wing effort to blame former President Bill Clinton for allowing the 9/11 attacks to take place. Iger told a source close to ABC that he was "deeply troubled" by the information and claimed he had no previous knowledge of the institutional right-wing ties of The Path to 9/11's creators. He reportedly said that he has commenced an internal investigation to verify the role of the film's creators in deliberately advancing disinformation through ABC.

Iger now bears ultimate responsibility for authorizing the product of a well-honed propaganda operation--a network of little-known right-wingers working from within Hollywood to counter its supposedly liberal bias. This is the network within the ABC network. Its godfather is far-right activist David Horowitz, who has worked for more than a decade to establish a right-wing presence in Hollywood and to discredit mainstream film and TV production. On this project, a secretive evangelical religious right group long associated with Horowitz, founded by The Path to 9/11's director, David Cunningham, that aims to "transform Hollywood" in line with its messianic vision, has taken the lead.

Before The Path to 9/11 entered the production stage, Disney/ABC signed David Cunningham as the film's director. Cunningham is no ordinary Hollywood journeyman. He is in fact the son of Loren Cunningham, founder of the right-wing evangelical group Youth With A Mission (YWAM). According to Sara Diamond's book Spiritual Warfare, during the 1980's YWAM "sought to gain influence within the Republican party" while assisting authoritarian governments in South Africa and Central America. Cunningham, Diamond noted, was a follower of Christian Reconstructionism, an extreme current of evangelical theology that advocates using stealth political methods to put the United States under the control of Biblical law and jettison the Constitution. Cunningham instilled his radical ideology in young missionaries by sending them to "Discipleship Training School." A former student of Cunningham's school claimed "similarities between cult mind controlling techniques and the [Discipleship Training School] program instituted by YWAM."

90 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:09:15pm

Slideshow of Joanna Lumley getting a hero's welcome in Nepal:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

91 Truck Monkey  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:09:16pm

re: #86 Attaboid

I get a registration page and bugmenot doesn't work (doesn't cycle thru additional logins either). I think NYTimes knows I'm in Canada.

We all know you're in Canada Attaboid. I see you right now.
*waving*
/

92 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:09:20pm

re: #77 slotgun

Somebody on this board called George Tiller "a brave and good man"? I find that remarkable.

Well, you can find it remarkable again then. Tiller was a brave and good man.

93 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:09:42pm

re: #85 albusteve

personally I am sick to death of the O'Reilly, Beck, Coulter coalition...toss a couple more in there...as an old time conservative I'm appalled and digusted with these pimps...TV$$$...I don't even want to hear their names mentioned and that goes for Fox too...too bad the sense makers have to work for the money whores

I like Cavuto.

94 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:09:44pm

re: #72 Jimmah

That's something I didn't know about them until I watched that documentary. They really do see women as snares of the devil.

I knew they hated women, and hated women's sexuality, because I've been involved for years in this cause. But I never saw it revealed so nakedly-- the men themselves saying it. Yeah, they talk passionately about the unborn children, and the poor women-- and so veminously about the women they know, and all the adult women they don't know-- how god has told them to stay chaste, and how all women 'now' are 'whores'.

Anyone who doesn't already understand the face of the anti-choice movement needs only to look there.

(BTW, yes, one can dislike abortion, be opposed to abortion, be pro-life, and NOT be 'anti-choice'. The anti-choice people want to take away the right to choose. They're not about life, or babies, or women; they're about forcing women to bring pregnancies to term when they do not want to.)

95 yochanan  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:09:57pm

re: #77 slotgun

tiller was a evil man it just isn't man's job to do the punishment
sadly there are times when abortion is the lesser of two evils for example when the womans life is endangered or if she was raped but I have a major problem with abortion as birth control and the way that the left treats it almost like it was getting your toe nails clipped or your hair cut.

96 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:11:00pm

re: #93 Pianobuff

I like Cavuto.

he's dirt...get another fix...it's a curse and he can't save it

97 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:11:41pm

re: #90 Jimmah

Love her!

98 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:12:17pm

re: #92 Last Mohican

Tiller was a brave and good man

re: #95 yochanan

tiller was a evil man

Ya Gotta Love LGF!

99 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:13:23pm
100 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:13:23pm

re: #14 Shug

2 year old account. suddenly appears with a bad attitude, I have to assume sock puppet from a banned lizard

And like a good sheriff, Charles snapped out his six shooter and drilled a hole in his head from 50 yards.

Nice shootin', Marshal!

101 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:13:26pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

Tiller was a brave and good man

re: #95 yochanan

tiller was a evil man

Ya Gotta Love LGF!

Tiller was a man...inside the law and you don't gun down people you disagree with...

102 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:13:41pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

Tiller was a brave and good man

re: #95 yochanan

tiller was a evil man

Ya Gotta Love LGF!

LOL
hiya Satt!

103 Kenneth  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:13:53pm

re: #87 MandyManners

Tareck = Tariq?

Why yes, as in:

Born in Venezuela of Syrian parents, El Aissami is the son of the president of the Venezuelan branch of Hussein's once-ruling Baath Party, and nephew of Shibli Al Aissami, a top-ranking Baath Party official in Baghdad whose whereabouts are unknown.

104 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:14:16pm

re: #96 albusteve

he's dirt...get another fix...it's a curse and he can't save it

Cavuto is dirt?

Shit man, now there is no one I can watch on Fox.

105 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:14:35pm

re: #71 Charles

Here is a link to the audio:

From media matters (eek) -

What I'd like to know is what he said right after this comment - did he keep digging this shameful hole? Anyone know?

106 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:14:54pm

re: #102 HoosierHoops

LOL
hiya Satt!

Hey Hoops,,, Whaasssuuppp!!

107 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:15:14pm

re: #103 Kenneth

Holee-shiite!

Thread worthy?

108 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:15:33pm

re: #96 albusteve

he's dirt...get another fix...it's a curse and he can't save it

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'll keep watching him.

109 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:15:48pm

re: #95 yochanan

the left treats it almost like it was getting your toe nails clipped or your hair cut.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever met a woman who had an abortion? For almost all of the ones I've known, it was a gut-wrenchingly difficult experience. Mischaracterizations like that are no more helpful than those of the pro-choice extremists who depict all pro-lifers as pseudoreligious crackpot murderers like Scott Roeder.

Most people are a lot closer together on this issue than they realize.

110 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:16:02pm

re: #101 albusteve

Tiller was a man...inside the law and you don't gun down people you disagree with...

Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord; I will repay.

... I don't need your help.

Thanks for asking,

G-d

111 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:16:23pm

re: #104 Racer X

Cavuto is dirt?

Shit man, now there is no one I can watch on Fox.

guilt by association...too bad...I reject the MSM outright and make no excuses for individuals

112 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:16:27pm

If there were eager adoptive parents waiting for all the babies that were to be born, there would be fewer abortions. But that doesn't occur to some, they'd first rather control what other people do than offer a home to life.

113 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:16:42pm

re: #94 iceweasel

You are going down a slippery slop by talking about abortion. The article topic was about the murder of Dr. Tiller. Keep it there.

114 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:17:02pm

re: #97 iceweasel

Love her!

She is one of my all time favourite women. She's still got it, too.

115 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:18:06pm

re: #53 Danny

I'll take your word that it was a good expose. I prefer not to visit NYT's site.

Good choice. There are cooties on that site. :)

116 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:18:25pm

re: #99 Racer X

Edgar Winter: Frankenstein

Dammit!

Sorry if I burnt up anyone's monitor or speakers, 'cause this performance is smokin!

117 kynna  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:18:30pm

re: #89 Sharmuta

So Clinton bears no blame? I thought Path to 911 was pretty darn fair, spreading the blame around and mostly hitting bureaucracy and complacency. I thought it was very unfairly stomped down.

Do you think it was dishonest in light of this revelation?

118 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:19:04pm

re: #114 Jimmah

She is one of my all time favourite women. She's still got it, too.

Isn't she an original Dr Who girl too?

119 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:19:06pm

re: #110 SteveC

Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord; I will repay.

... I don't need your help.

Thanks for asking,

G-d

I'm a mass disagree er...I don't trust anyone but my daughter and ex wife...otherwise I'd be in Alcatraz...Cavuto means nothing to me

120 yochanan  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:19:13pm

re: #101 albusteve

i don't support the killing of him in any way. but i really think he was fast and loose with the law on late term abortions.
the jewish religion doesn't see abortion as a free choice thing. it accepts it as the lesser of two evils one we have to sadly use. not something to worship and be happy about.

121 Attaboid  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:19:30pm

re: #86 Attaboid

Argh. I had specifically blocked cookies from NYTimes. Don't remember doing that.

122 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:19:48pm

re: #113 Erik The Red

You are going down a slippery slop by talking about abortion. The article topic was about the murder of Dr. Tiller. Keep it there.

Who made you in charge of the thread?

123 Altermite  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:20:27pm

re: #120 yochanan

i don't support the killing of him in any way. but i really think he was fast and loose with the law on late term abortions.
the jewish religion doesn't see abortion as a free choice thing. it accepts it as the lesser of two evils one we have to sadly use. not something to worship and be happy about.

Excuse me, but there isn't really a consensus in judaism on abortion. The view you describe does exist, but it is hardly the on;y one.

Not just that, but NOBODY "worships" abortion.

124 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:20:43pm

re: #120 yochanan

i don't support the killing of him in any way. but i really think he was fast and loose with the law on late term abortions.
the jewish religion doesn't see abortion as a free choice thing. it accepts it as the lesser of two evils one we have to sadly use. not something to worship and be happy about.

your religion does not count, or anyone elses

125 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:20:56pm

re: #95 yochanan

I need to clarify my up ding - I do not agree Dr. Tiller was an evil man, I was commenting on the left's laissez-fare attitude toward abortion. I'm not saying everyone on the left, but many on the left.

Just needed to be clear.

126 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:20:57pm

re: #122 iceweasel

Who made you in charge of the thread?

OK. SMARTASS go there.

127 lobo91  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:21:57pm

re: #81 Kenneth

OT: Sweden has asked Venezuela to explain how Swedish-made weapons ended up in the hands of Colombia's Farc rebels.


The Venezuelan Interior Minister has a very interesting name, doesn't he?

According to this:

Tarek's father, Carlos, manages the Venezuelan branch of Iraqi Baath Party, his grandfather, uncle Shibli el-Aissami was Assistant Secretary General of that political organization in Baghdad during Saddam Hussein's dictatorship.

Before the invasion of Iraq, Carlos El-Aissami gave a press conference in which he described himself as a Taliban, and referred to the time most wanted murderer as "the great Muyajedin, Sheik Osama Bin Laden."

Yes, it's a Google translation, so a bit iffy.

128 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:22:09pm

re: #113 Erik The Red

You are going down a slippery slop by talking about abortion. The article topic was about the murder of Dr. Tiller. Keep it there.

She's discussing the psychology of the kind of fanatics from whom the likes of Tiller's murderer emerge. Hardly off topic.

129 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:22:20pm

re: #103 Kenneth

a top-ranking Baath Party official in Baghdad whose whereabouts are unknown.

I bet I know where he is.

130 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:22:31pm

re: #120 yochanan

the jewish religion doesn't see abortion as a free choice thing. it accepts it as the lesser of two evils one we have to sadly use. not something to worship and be happy about.

If you can tell me which religion or political movement it is that worships abortion, and rejoices when an abortion takes place, then I promise I won't vote for their candidates or buy anything at their bake sale.

131 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:22:53pm

re: #110 SteveC

Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord; I will repay.

... I don't need your help.

Thanks for asking,

G-d

re: #119 albusteve

I'm a mass disagree er...I don't trust anyone but my daughter and ex wife...otherwise I'd be in Alcatraz...Cavuto means nothing to me

What's Cavuto got to do with it? - Tina Turner, 1983

132 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:23:13pm
133 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:23:36pm

re: #89 Sharmuta

Director of 'The Path to 9/11' a Christian Reconstructionist

Sharm: The Nation? Cooties! Cooties! :)

134 VegasRick  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:23:59pm

re: #119 albusteve

I'm a mass disagree er...I don't trust anyone but my daughter and ex wife...otherwise I'd be in Alcatraz...Cavuto means nothing to me

How are you tonight Mr. Cheery!

135 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:24:07pm

re: #132 buzzsawmonkey

Especially since you can't be sure what's in the baked goods.

Oof.

136 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:24:12pm

re: #26 Charles

They have a lot of talented people, though, and they're not worthless. For these kinds of in-depth articles they're among the best, in fact.

Wall Street Journal is also a fine NY newspaper.

137 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:24:19pm

re: #131 SteveC

What's Cavuto got to do with it? - Tina Turner, 1983

Cavuto has nothing to do with anything, unless you want him to...nice hair

138 Danny  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:24:28pm

re: #126 Erik The Red

Seemed like a legit question to me. Nothing smartass about it, really.

139 yochanan  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:25:00pm

re: #123 Altermite

that simply isn't true it is rather clear that abortion is a central part of radical feminism

karl marx' the family, private property and the state gives a clear indication of why the left doesn't support traditional family values.

140 Altermite  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:25:01pm

re: #132 buzzsawmonkey

Especially since you can't be sure what's in the baked goods.

And on that note, I recently saw and thoroughly enjoyed Sweeney Todd

141 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:25:24pm

re: #137 albusteve

Cavuto has nothing to do with anything, unless you want him to...nice hair

Well you threw it out there!

142 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:25:27pm

re: #128 Jimmah

She's discussing the psychology of the kind of fanatics from whom the likes of Tiller's murderer emerge. Hardly off topic.

It was a friendly reminder that this topic is very hot here. Nothing more, nothing less. Run with supporting abortion all you care to.

143 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:25:33pm

re: #134 VegasRick

How are you tonight Mr. Cheery!

jolly well!...I am the King of My Realm...what's not to like!

144 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:25:34pm

re: #118 iceweasel

Isn't she an original Dr Who girl too?

I don't think so, not 100% though. I think you might be thinking instead of the New Avengers:

145 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:25:39pm

re: #126 Erik The Red

OK. SMARTASS go there.

Dude, you just tried to tell me that the topic of abortion has nothing, nothing at all, to do with the murder of Dr Tiller, and you ordered me 'not to go there".

Looks to me like you're the one out of bounds.

Now calm down and let's listen to some cool music or talk about something else.

146 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:25:51pm

re: #64 ArmyWife

I'm sure he was loved by his friends and family. I'm sure he was a respectable human being, a good person. But not a hero. This doesn't, however, distract from his senseless death.

He was most ceertainly a hero to women whose lives and health he saved when they couldn't find other doctors who would dare to help them, at the risk, and ultimately the loss, of his own life. In the military, such a sacrifice is known as laying down the last full measure of one's devotion.

A hero to them he was. And a martyr for what he believed was right.

147 VegasRick  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:26:54pm

re: #143 albusteve

jolly well!...I am the King of My Realm...what's not to like!

You crack me up sometimes (that's a good thing).

148 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:27:07pm

re: #81 Kenneth

This character is well known. I personally believe he will be an agent of change. Time will tell.

149 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:27:10pm

re: #146 Salamantis

There are no words.

150 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:27:28pm

re: #141 SteveC

Well you threw it out there!

okay...I dig his hair...heroic hair, hair you should listen to

151 Altermite  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:28:14pm

re: #139 yochanan

that simply isn't true it is rather clear that abortion is a central part of radical feminism

karl marx' the family, private property and the state gives a clear indication of why the left doesn't support traditional family values.

Excuse me? What part of what I said isn't true? The bit about there being a lack of consensus, or the bit about nobody worshiping abortion?

I would be very much surprised if you managed to find even in the most extreme 'radical feminist' literature an adulation of abortion.

152 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:28:21pm

re: #26 Charles

I am totally sad about the NYT, because I agree... there is not another newspaper that can dig into a story on almost every topic like they can. I still get the dead tree edition because of the weekly science, art, and home/garden/fashion features and I am addicted to Shortz' damn crossword puzzles, even though I have never managed to finish a Saturday one without cheating.
What causes me to throw up my hands (or up in my mouth a little, at times) is their blatant and arrogant viral editorializing and their fascist approach to reader letters, OpEds, and, frankly, fact-checking . The Times censors news it finds personally unpalatable , buries significant events that they feel are politically incorrect, and their news content morphs... rather, oozes... seamlessly into commentary.

153 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:28:46pm

re: #77 slotgun

Jeebus. Somebody on this board called George Tiller "a brave and good man"? I find that remarkable. I lived in Wichita for 14 years, and I can tell you that way too much of what was taking place on Kellogg Avenue was the same thing Tiller got in the end: Execution. He was on record talking about huge numbers of late-term, viable-baby abortions he performed, when there wasn't a damn thing wrong with the baby involved. He openly defied the law, the letter of the law, and the spirit of Roe v. Wade. Roeder is a wombat and a jackhole, a lunatic who took things into his own hands against everything that most rational people believe. But let's not pretend for a second that just because he was robbed of his own life, George Tiller was some sort of civic saint. He shouldn't have been gunned down. (Sad that I have to say that to counter in advance the mouth-foamers who classify all of us pro-lifers as loons just because we saw Tiller for what he was.) But the fact is that some kids, somewhere, are alive today because Tiller ain't. I won't cry about that. And I certainly won't deify the man because he met the fate he did. Shame on those who would use his death by tring to score rhetorical points in the abortion argument--just as those who try to justify his death by posting a "scorecard" of Tiller vs. Feti should be shamed.

There might well also be women who are dead or permanently impaired because Dr. Tiller is dead. And if the other two doctors who perform late-term abortions in America are likewise murdered, that number will skyrocket.

154 yochanan  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:29:14pm

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
it would be nice to have a thread on this subject.

the scandle is now out in the open

155 VegasRick  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:29:14pm

Later folks!

156 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:29:37pm
157 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:30:04pm

When I became pregnant with my 4th, 5th, 6th...9th child, I dreaded telling my grandmother about it, because she would always scream at me "abortion is legal now! Go get an abortion! Stop having all those babies!"

My mom does not understand why my kids (the ones she told me to abort) don't want to name their children after her.

158 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:30:10pm

re: #149 ArmyWife

There are no words.

I can think of but one. Regardless of which "side" one comes down on

AMEN

159 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:30:18pm

re: #150 albusteve

okay...I dig his hair...heroic hair, hair you should listen to

Wynheart Toupee Company - the Hair of Heroes! :)

160 Danny  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:30:34pm

re: #154 yochanan

I agree.

161 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:31:27pm

Seems like quite a slow day today...

Check out this unbelievably good speech by pro-Israeli Mike Harris in front of a crowd of leftist Jews before a film about Rachel Corrie at the San Francisco Jewish Film Festival.

162 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:31:28pm

re: #154 yochanan

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
it would be nice to have a thread on this subject.

the scandle is now out in the open to be ignored even further by the MSM

ftfy

163 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:31:38pm

re: #153 Salamantis


There might well also be women who are dead or permanently impaired because Dr. Tiller is dead. And if the other two doctors who perform late-term abortions in America are likewise murdered, that number will skyrocket.


hyperbole much?

164 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:31:42pm

re: #154 yochanan

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
it would be nice to have a thread on this subject.

the scandle is now out in the open

The MSM will pooh-pooh this as overblown right wing hatemongering. Loans like this are perfectly reasonable. Nothing to see here. Move along.

165 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:32:40pm

re: #157 Alouette

Wow! just wow!
What a story...Kind regards

166 Greengolem64  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:33:21pm

re: #11 VegasRick

What is it with all these jerks lately. Been registered for years and 0 - 5 posts, then start spouting crap? I don't get it.

The bloggers version of 'sleeper cell'... :)

167 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:33:31pm

re: #157 Alouette

When I became pregnant with my 4th, 5th, 6th...9th child, I dreaded telling my grandmother about it, because she would always scream at me "abortion is legal now! Go get an abortion! Stop having all those babies!"

My mom does not understand why my kids (the ones she told me to abort) don't want to name their children after her.


Damn I would have just bought you a TV for the bedroom. :)

168 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:33:58pm

re: #159 SteveC

Wynheart Toupee Company - the Hair of Heroes! :)

shining gleaming stream of flaxin waxin...cool hair rules our govt and our economy and even NASCAR

169 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:34:01pm

re: #62 ArmyWife

I'm sure I've called the NYT worthless at some point - and worse. This is a great piece, but it doesn't negate what they've done to the Military. Is it ok to say one notch above worthless, but all the other ugly things I've said still stand? ;)

I'm reminded of the NYT's remarkably fair and balanced article on the truth movement. Do you remember this one?

170 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:34:09pm

If you haven't read the article there some facts that might surprise you: Tiller performed 4,800 abortions from 98 forward, of those 2000 were non viable fetus's. Many were referrals from law enforcement agencies from other states with rape and incest cases. The others were viable but with serious disabilities that would cause lifetimes of pain.

This is a far cry from Bloody Randall Terry's lie of "67,000" or whatever the preposterous number was.

171 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:34:13pm

Charles, is a hat tip possible on the update ? [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

172 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:34:25pm

re: #146 Salamantis

He was most ceertainly a hero to women whose lives and health he saved when they couldn't find other doctors who would dare to help them, at the risk, and ultimately the loss, of his own life. In the military, such a sacrifice is known as laying down the last full measure of one's devotion.

A hero to them he was. And a martyr for what he believed was right.


Exactly.

This man lived with daily death threats, survived an assassination attempt 15 years ago, endured Bill O'reilly and others calling him a baby killer and murderer for years, and every workday he got out of bed, put on an bulletproof vest, and drove an armoured car to a clinic where he had bulletproof windows and cameras--- all to perform a legal medical procedure for women who desperately needed it.

That's why he's a hero. He was one of the very few brave enough to live with that constant threat, and not back down.
And that's why he was murdered.

173 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:35:30pm

re: #158 sattv4u2

I thought of some words when I walked away a bit. But they aren't lady like, and this isn't worth my time.

174 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:35:37pm

re: #154 yochanan

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
it would be nice to have a thread on this subject.

the scandle is now out in the open

Dodd heads the Banking Committee and is a major player in two big areas: solving the housing foreclosure and financial crises and putting together an overhaul of the U.S. health care system. A five-term senator, he is in a tough fight for re-election in 2010, partly because of the controversy over his mortgages.

Controversy ? Whataworld.

175 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:37:39pm

re: #95 yochanan

tiller was a evil man it just isn't man's job to do the punishment
sadly there are times when abortion is the lesser of two evils for example when the womans life is endangered or if she was raped but I have a major problem with abortion as birth control and the way that the left treats it almost like it was getting your toe nails clipped or your hair cut.

I have been a clinic escort, and have spoken with many of these 1st trimester abortion women. They do not obtain abortions on cavalier whims, as one might decide to get hair highlights during a beauty shop trip. Rather, they excruciatingly agonize over their choice, but once having made it, many of them would do ANYTHING - self-abort with coathangars or knitting needles or noxious potions, contract with back-alley butchers - in order to avoid bringing the pregnancy to term. They are like trapped animals who are willing to chew their own paws off to escape.

But late term abortions are a different category entirely. These women were carrying their pregnancies to term, wanted children, are emotionally devastated when they receive the terrible news, and make their choices in pain and anguish, and only to either preserve their lives or physical health, or because their fetuses are so monstrously deformed that they are either already dead or incapable of long surviving delivery.

176 researchok  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:37:51pm

'I do believe an individual has a right to choose what is right for them. It may not be what I agree with and I may find immoral, even. But until I’m in that person’s shoes, what right do I have to tell someone what is moral for them? Should not morality come from within and not be imposed? There are people and societies out there that want to do just that– impose a set of values on us that we disagree with. That imposition of morality goes against everything we believe in.

That is not a baseless argument. There are people out there with terminal diseases or in dire need of organs. Despite the desperate situations and the pain and suffering some have to endure, we do not force anyone to donate their bone marrow or organs, even in the event of death. In not doing so, we condemn those people who are ill, to death. These individuals and unfortunates are innocent and defenseless. We do not mandate that like it or not, everyone must donate what may be lifesaving to another. Is that moral? I don’t know.

177 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:38:27pm

re: #146 Salamantis

If you're looking for one-word descriptions, better stick to ' victim', because Dr Tiller certainly was a victim of the ultimate criminal act .
Martyr?
Not even a little bit.

178 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:39:09pm

re: #172 iceweasel

Exactly.

This man lived with daily death threats, survived an assassination attempt 15 years ago, endured Bill O'reilly and others calling him a baby killer and murderer for years, and every workday he got out of bed, put on an bulletproof vest, and drove an armoured car to a clinic where he had bulletproof windows and cameras--- all to perform a legal medical procedure for women who desperately needed it.

That's why he's a hero. He was one of the very few brave enough to live with that constant threat, and not back down.
And that's why he was murdered.

so the asshole was lucky...it's not about him, it's about the law...he's no hero, that gets tossed around to easily these days...I know hero's, hero's do not choose their path, they obey the order of law, of civilization...the guy is a freak, but he did not desereve to die for it...don't pretend he's some kind of hero...he isn't

179 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:40:18pm

re: #153 Salamantis

There might well also be women who are dead or permanently impaired because Dr. Tiller is dead. And if the other two doctors who perform late-term abortions in America are likewise murdered, that number will skyrocket.

Just to provide a different angle: As a lot of you know, I am very involved in several Congenital Heart Defect (CHD) support groups. While a CHD pregnancy is possible (with GOOD prenatal care for both child and mother) a good number of women with heart defects have been advised that getting pregnant would be very unhealthy. Their heart may not be able to take the stress, or the child could be adversely affected.

180 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:40:40pm
181 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:40:46pm

We need a thread to discuss whether Sec/St Clinton's statement that Iran is not under any scenario getting nukes is a) believable, and b) do-able.
Is this a code phrase to Israel for 'go for it '?

182 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:41:16pm

I never cease to be amazed at the fluid nature of most people's beliefs and moral positions. I think I made a similar comment on a diff. thread about political hypocrisy, but what it boils down to is that most folks seem to have no problem with contradictory positions, as long as they align with their own moral positions. This is practically a textbook definition of hypocrisy.

--> Many anti-abortion activists are pro death-penalty. Huh? If this is based on biblical beliefs - which part of "Thou shall not kill" is open to debate? But... it seems there is a plethora of arguments why killing is ok in certain situations, but not others...

--> Plenty of conservatives are fundamentally opposed to governmental overreach, and meddling. But not when it comes to abortion or terri shiavo. In this case, government has to tell the people what's good for them... protect them from themselves so to speak. Same goes for homosexuality.

--> Many christians are very vocal on freedom of religion - but only theirs. Not islam...not judaism, not agnosticism. Just christianity. And some espouse only their version - literalist creationism, or some other variant.

We seem to be very willing to bargain away the most amazing, beautiful, and delicate things about this country. Our constitution is a work of art - and balance. How much the founders foresaw and tried to mitigate is astounding. Almost as if they looked into man's soul and saw what we would be capable of, and tried to save us from ourselves. How sad that we are willing to throw all of it away just to be right... today.

-PH

183 esch  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:41:32pm

re: #176 researchok

That is not a baseless argument. There are people out there with terminal diseases or in dire need of organs. Despite the desperate situations and the pain and suffering some have to endure, we do not force anyone to donate their bone marrow or organs, even in the event of death. In not doing so, we condemn those people who are ill, to death. These individuals and unfortunates are innocent and defenseless. We do not mandate that like it or not, everyone must donate what may be lifesaving to another. Is that moral? I don’t know.

Yes. Death comes to us all. No one has the right to enslave or take from an innocent against their will to try to prevent their own death.

184 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:41:58pm

re: #181 tradewind

We need a thread to discuss whether Sec/St Clinton's statement that Iran is not under any scenario getting nukes is a) believable, and b) do-able.
Is this a code phrase to Israel for 'go for it '?

c. posturing

185 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:41:59pm

re: #177 tradewind

Excellent distinction. Wish I'd said that.

186 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:42:07pm

Getting a bit testy in here.

Take deep breaths.

Then post like you are in the same room with each other.

187 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:42:11pm

re: #164 Son of the Black Dog

The MSM will pooh-pooh this as overblown right wing hatemongering. Loans like this are perfectly reasonable. Nothing to see here. Move along.

There's also the non-news about Obama easing up on stimulus lobbyist restrictions for the MSM to ignore.

n March, President Obama announced that government officials would not be allowed to consider the views of lobbyists regarding specific stimulus projects unless the requests are put in writing. The materials also had to be posted on an agency’s website within three business days of receipt. Lobbyists have said that the policy was one more example of the administration's disdain for their industry.

Now, the just-revised rules will allow government personnel to accept meetings and calls from federally registered lobbyists on the implementation of stimulus projects. The head of the Office of Management and Budget, Peter Orszag, issued a new guidance late Friday regarding the administration's communications with registered lobbyists about economic recovery funds.

188 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:42:23pm
189 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:43:39pm

re: #186 Racer X

Getting a bit testy in here.

Take deep breaths.

Then post like you are in the same room with each other.

Good evening RacerX... Hope you are well

190 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:44:04pm

re: #153 Salamantis

There might well also be women who are dead or permanently impaired because Dr. Tiller is dead. And if the other two doctors who perform late-term abortions in America are likewise murdered, that number will skyrocket.

to as high as France or the Netherlands where late term abs are illegal ?

191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:44:13pm

What is the "Iron Fist" rule called now? I've been drinking.

And I mean driiinnnkkiiinnnggg!

192 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:44:17pm

re: #142 Erik The Red

It was a friendly reminder that this topic is very hot here. Nothing more, nothing less. Run with supporting abortion all you care to.

I support 1st trimester womens' choice; the choice to either end a pregnancy, or the choice to carry it to term. It is not the business of a church, or a state, or anybody but the women concerned and their consciences to make such decisions. People have enough to do with running their own lives without abusing the machinery of the state in order to coercively dictate the private life decisions of others.

You wanna see abortion support, go to China, where it's legally mandated after a single child. Only in totalitarianisms or theocracies are such intensely personal decisions either mandated or forbidden; constitutional democratic republics are the oasis of individual choice in such matters, and should be.

193 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:44:35pm

re: #179 SteveC

Perhaps, but in those cases there would hardly be a need to postpone the decision until the last trimester of a viable pregnancy.

194 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:44:46pm
195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:44:55pm

re: #185 Jim in Virginia

There a "Hard Times Cafe" near you?

196 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:45:40pm

re: #184 The Shadow Do

If it's (c), that's frightening, because it would be a total bankruptcy of our foreign policy.
I hope Gibbs has to answer this one in the next presser.
Not that he can...

197 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:45:41pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is the "Iron Fist" rule called now? I've been drinking.

And I mean driiinnnkkiiinnnggg!

The FBV Codicil?

198 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:45:41pm

re: #182 placeholder

I never cease to be amazed at the fluid nature of most people's beliefs and moral positions. I think I made a similar comment on a diff. thread about political hypocrisy, but what it boils down to is that most folks seem to have no problem with contradictory positions, as long as they align with their own moral positions. This is practically a textbook definition of hypocrisy.

--> Many anti-abortion activists are pro death-penalty. Huh? If this is based on biblical beliefs - which part of "Thou shall not kill" is open to debate? But... it seems there is a plethora of arguments why killing is ok in certain situations, but not others...

--> Plenty of conservatives are fundamentally opposed to governmental overreach, and meddling. But not when it comes to abortion or terri shiavo. In this case, government has to tell the people what's good for them... protect them from themselves so to speak. Same goes for homosexuality.

--> Many christians are very vocal on freedom of religion - but only theirs. Not islam...not judaism, not agnosticism. Just christianity. And some espouse only their version - literalist creationism, or some other variant.

We seem to be very willing to bargain away the most amazing, beautiful, and delicate things about this country. Our constitution is a work of art - and balance. How much the founders foresaw and tried to mitigate is astounding. Almost as if they looked into man's soul and saw what we would be capable of, and tried to save us from ourselves. How sad that we are willing to throw all of it away just to be right... today.

-PH

And by most people, you mean anti-abortion activists, conservatives, and christians. Do I have that right?

199 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:45:58pm

re: #182 placeholder

--> Many anti-abortion activists are pro death-penalty. Huh? If this is based on biblical beliefs - which part of "Thou shall not kill" is open to debate?

"Thou shalt not kill" is open to debate because that phrase does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

The Bible says לא תרצח "Thou shalt not murder"

200 esch  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:46:12pm

re: #197 SteveC

The FBV Codicil?

Shouldn't it be something a drunk could pronounce?

201 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:46:21pm

OT -

What is this crap playing on my radio? :(

202 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:46:33pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is the "Iron Fist" rule called now? I've been drinking.

And I mean driiinnnkkiiinnnggg!

We really need to sent this to committee...
This is a staff out if I ever seen one...

203 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:46:42pm

re: #157 Alouette

When I became pregnant with my 4th, 5th, 6th...9th child, I dreaded telling my grandmother about it, because she would always scream at me "abortion is legal now! Go get an abortion! Stop having all those babies!"

My mom does not understand why my kids (the ones she told me to abort) don't want to name their children after her.

That was your personal choice. And all personal choices in such private matters should be respected.

204 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:46:45pm

re: #146 Salamantis

He was most ceertainly a hero to women whose lives and health he saved when they couldn't find other doctors who would dare to help them, at the risk, and ultimately the loss, of his own life. In the military, such a sacrifice is known as laying down the last full measure of one's devotion.

A hero to them he was. And a martyr for what he believed was right.

I've made some sacrifices to be a doctor. I've spent months straight doing absolutely nothing but studying for boards exams. I've stayed awake for 36 straight hours trying to help a patient, while every fiber of my body was telling me to go to sleep. Although I'm paid very well now, I spent years making very little money, or even paying tuition, so that I could pursue my profession, while my friends were raking in money on Wall Street. But I've never once, not even for a minute, feared that someone might kill me because I was trying to help my patients. George Tiller had to live with that knowledge every day of his life.

205 esch  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:46:54pm

re: #201 SteveC

OT -

What is this crap playing on my radio? :(

I don't know, turn it up so we can hear it better.

206 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:47:02pm

re: #192 Salamantis

You wanna see abortion support, go to China, where it's legally mandated after a single child.


Not recently, the policy has been revised.

207 outsidephilly  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:47:11pm

re: #201 SteveC

OT -

What is this crap playing on my radio? :(

Barry Manalow medley?

208 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:47:16pm

re: #200 esch

Shouldn't it be something a drunk could pronounce?

Not thinkin', just drinkin'!

209 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:47:19pm

re: #163 The Shadow Do

hyperbole much?

Nope. Not this time.

210 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:47:34pm

re: #186 Racer X

Getting a bit testy in here.

Take deep breaths.

Then post like you are in the same room with each other.

Are the chairs nailed to the floor?

211 lobo91  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:47:37pm

re: #196 tradewind

If it's (c), that's frightening, because it would be a total bankruptcy of our foreign policy.
I hope Gibbs has to answer this one in the next presser.
Not that he can...

For that to happen, someone would have to ask the question. Seem likely to you?

212 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:48:02pm

re: #181 tradewind

We need a thread to discuss whether Sec/St Clinton's statement that Iran is not under any scenario getting nukes is a) believable, and b) do-able.
Is this a code phrase to Israel for 'go for it '?

She's smoking dope. It must be really good stuff.
Is she in a position to (a) order the US to attack the Iranian nuke program, (b) be sure that Israel, (or France, Russia, Britain, fill in a country) will attack the Iranian nuke program or (c) know for a certainty that such an attack would prevent Iran from getting nukes?

Its diplospeak. Sound and fury, signifying nothing. Nada. Nichts. Zilch. Bupkis.

213 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:48:53pm

re: #175 Salamantis

Your personal narrative notwithstanding, not every abortion is excruciatingly agonize ing, not in the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd trimester.
Many are, but spend time in an inner city (think Detroit, Atlanta, New York, Boston) clinic as opposed to a smaller environe or the burbs

Tiller was murdered by a lunatic. Niether person should be lionized, deified nor sainted imho

214 yochanan  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:48:57pm

you will see from the global warming crowd pressue to cut our population i have already seen propaganda pushing for small families or no kids .

215 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:49:02pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is the "Iron Fist" rule called now? I've been drinking.

And I mean driiinnnkkiiinnnggg!


Will you share?

216 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:49:51pm

re: #204 Last Mohican

That was a fantastic post Doctor.. Thank you for you dedication to humanity...
Wow!

217 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:49:57pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is the "Iron Fist" rule called now? I've been drinking.

And I mean driiinnnkkiiinnnggg!


If he was boozing it up at the time of banning, then perhaps the name is even more appropriate.

218 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:50:17pm

Oh noes! Nirth Certifitkit haz been voted!
House Passes Resolution Calling Hawaii Obama's Birthplace

219 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:50:27pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is the "Iron Fist" rule called now? I've been drinking.

And I mean driiinnnkkiiinnnggg!

Chocolate milk doesn't count,silly.

220 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:50:33pm

re: #177 tradewind

If you're looking for one-word descriptions, better stick to ' victim', because Dr Tiller certainly was a victim of the ultimate criminal act .
Martyr?
Not even a little bit.

When you are murdered because you refuse to back down from a deeply cherished principle, there is no other word for it.

221 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:50:53pm

re: #195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

About a mile and a half. Where you at?
Do they have meatless chili?

222 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:51:23pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is the "Iron Fist" rule called now? I've been drinking.

And I mean driiinnnkkiiinnnggg!

why don't you leave him alone?

223 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:51:27pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Oh noes! Nirth Certifitkit haz been voted!
House Passes Resolution Calling Hawaii Obama's Birthplace

Passed with 378 votes. No "no" votes.

224 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:51:47pm

re: #215 Jim in Virginia

Will you share?

He doesn't share ,,, thats why he's FAT!

225 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:51:59pm

re: #194 buzzsawmonkey

The phrase translated often as "Thou shalt not kill" is written "Thou shalt not murder."

Not the same thing.

What, in your opinion, is the distinction? Biblical definition-wise?

226 lobo91  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:52:29pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Oh noes! Nirth Certifitkit haz been voted!
House Passes Resolution Calling Hawaii Obama's Birthplace

Gee, it's good to know Congress is hard at work dealing with important issues...

227 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:52:33pm

re: #196 tradewind

If it's (c), that's frightening, because it would be a total bankruptcy of our foreign policy.
I hope Gibbs has to answer this one in the next presser.
Not that he can...

everything I have seen from this bunch tells me they fly by the seat of their pants, e.g. Guantonomo etc etc

228 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:52:38pm

re: #223 Pianobuff

Passed with 378 votes. No "no" votes.

And not voting were 35 Ds and 20 Rs

229 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:53:00pm

re: #223 Pianobuff

Passed with 378 votes. No "no" votes.

RINOS!

230 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:53:13pm

re: #220 Salamantis

When you are murdered because you refuse to back down from a deeply cherished principle, there is no other word for it.

wrong again. Please see 213

231 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:53:15pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Oh noes! Nirth Certifitkit haz been voted!
House Passes Resolution Calling Hawaii Obama's Birthplace


NOT VOTING 55 ---

Akin
Barrett (SC)
Bishop (NY)
Boucher
Brady (TX)
Braley (IA)
Brown (SC)
Camp
Campbell
Carter
Costello
Courtney
Crenshaw
Cuellar
Davis (AL)
Davis (IL)
Deal (GA)
Engel
Graves
Green, Al
Grijalva
Gutierrez
Higgins
Hodes
Hoekstra
Johnson (IL)
Kilroy
Larsen (WA)
Lynch
Maloney
Marchant
McCarthy (NY)
Miller (NC)
Murphy (CT)
Murtha
Olson
Ortiz
Paul
Platts
Quigley
Radanovich
Rodriguez
Rohrabacher
Rush
Schakowsky
Sestak
Sires
Smith (WA)
Stupak
Tiberi
Tsongas
Wamp
Waters
Waxman
Weiner


Ron Paul and Henry Waxman are Nirthers !
/

232 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:53:27pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Oh noes! Nirth Certifitkit haz been voted!
House Passes Resolution Calling Hawaii Obama's Birthplace

Bachman tried to block it. arrrghhh

233 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:53:39pm

re: #192 Salamantis

I support 1st trimester womens' choice; the choice to either end a pregnancy, or the choice to carry it to term. It is not the business of a church, or a state, or anybody but the women concerned and their consciences to make such decisions. People have enough to do with running their own lives without abusing the machinery of the state in order to coercively dictate the private life decisions of others.

You wanna see abortion support, go to China, where it's legally mandated after a single child. Only in totalitarianisms or theocracies are such intensely personal decisions either mandated or forbidden; constitutional democratic republics are the oasis of individual choice in such matters, and should be.

Sal I am not knocking anyone who supports abortion. I just disagree with it. Except in two incidents, rape and mothers life. Abortion is not birth control. Keep your legs crossed/dick in your pants.

234 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:53:50pm

re: #229 Killgore Trout

RINOS!

I'm relieved to be honest with you KT. I wasn't sweating... well maybe just a little bit, but not much.

235 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:54:30pm

re: #194 buzzsawmonkey

The phrase translated often as "Thou shalt not kill" is written "Thou shalt not murder."

Not the same thing.

That's right. And since both execution and abortion are lawful life termination (as is self-defence, which is what legal late term abortions come down to), neither of them is murder.

236 brownmear  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:54:49pm

re: #182 placeholder

Can't decide between abortion and the death penalty? Thou shalt not kill? How about an eye for an eye? So you are against killing? Capital punishment and abortion? You are consistent right? You are against both right? I can agree with that!

You agree to let babies live, I will agree to let killers live out their lives in prison.

Make you happy? We are all consistent now?

237 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:55:25pm

re: #220 Salamantis

When you are murdered because you refuse to back down from a deeply cherished principle, there is no other word for it.

suit yourself...he can be your martyr but he is not mine

238 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:55:33pm

The Hawaii resolution is the Dem's symbolic victory and sideshow as they are going to go to recess as whipped pups in their failure to get Cap and Trade and Healthcare bills passed.

/proud to have laid out the strategy of influencing blue dogs three months ago...

239 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:55:44pm

BTW I have taken ice's advice and am listening to Zepplin's Mothership

240 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:55:49pm

The Wedding Present - You Should Always Keep In Touch With Your Friends

Nite folks:)

241 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:55:59pm

re: #220 Salamantis

There is laying down your life for a deeply held principle, and there is stupidity in exposing yourself to risk because you are in denial and/or unwilling to modify your lifestyle.
Martyrdom is not carelessly allowing yourself to become the target for a maniac when there are alternatives. The fact that other physicians were unwilling to take that physical risk for profit that Tiller took (and please spare the anecdotes of all the pro bono work... he was a very wealthy man because of his monopoly) does not qualify him for sainthood.

242 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:56:52pm

re: #237 albusteve

suit yourself...he can be your martyr but he is not mine

Is he talking about David Koresh ?

243 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:57:10pm

re: #225 placeholder If I recall correctly the Levitical code (the origin of "Thou shalt not kill/ murder") specifies the death penalty for certain actions. Murder is murder; justified execution of a wrongdoer is not.

244 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:57:43pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Oh noes! Nirth Certifitkit haz been voted!
House Passes Resolution Calling Hawaii Obama's Birthplace

Oh Look ,,, SHINEY THINGS!!!

ooo,,, aaahhh,,, mmm

245 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:57:52pm

re: #223 Pianobuff

LMAO. Can they pass a resolution that Billy Jo McAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie bridge?
(The nirth thing is stupid, though. If Hawaii says he was born there, I just don't get the frenzy).

246 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:57:53pm

re: #242 Shug

Is he talking about David Koresh ?

so many martyrs...I get confused with all this rightousness

247 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:58:06pm

re: #239 Erik The Red

BTW I have taken ice's advice and am listening to Zepplin's Mothership

My new Internet at home sucks.. So far I have to reboot the router every 15 minutes...Need to get the Cable bugs worked out here...

248 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:58:22pm

re: #203 Salamantis

That was your personal choice. And all personal choices in such private matters should be respected.

Exactly. Being pro-choice means supporting choice. I support women who choose abortion and I believe it's important that women retain the right to choose abortion. I equally support the choice to have a child, whether it's an unmarried teenage girl or a married women over 40 with a special needs child.

The original slogan, and the one that still makes sense to me, is "Our Bodies, Our Choice".

That's why it's ridiculous to claim that the pro-choice people are "pro-abortion".

249 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:58:28pm

re: #182 placeholder

I never cease to be amazed at the fluid nature of most people's beliefs and moral positions. I think I made a similar comment on a diff. thread about political hypocrisy, but what it boils down to is that most folks seem to have no problem with contradictory positions, as long as they align with their own moral positions. This is practically a textbook definition of hypocrisy.

--> Many anti-abortion activists are pro death-penalty. Huh? If this is based on biblical beliefs - which part of "Thou shall not kill" is open to debate? But... it seems there is a plethora of arguments why killing is ok in certain situations, but not others...

--> Plenty of conservatives are fundamentally opposed to governmental overreach, and meddling. But not when it comes to abortion or terri shiavo. In this case, government has to tell the people what's good for them... protect them from themselves so to speak. Same goes for homosexuality.

--> Many christians are very vocal on freedom of religion - but only theirs. Not islam...not judaism, not agnosticism. Just christianity. And some espouse only their version - literalist creationism, or some other variant.

We seem to be very willing to bargain away the most amazing, beautiful, and delicate things about this country. Our constitution is a work of art - and balance. How much the founders foresaw and tried to mitigate is astounding. Almost as if they looked into man's soul and saw what we would be capable of, and tried to save us from ourselves. How sad that we are willing to throw all of it away just to be right... today.

-PH

place: Very well said. I hearted that one. Hypocrisy reigns, unfortunately.

250 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:58:38pm

re: #231 Shug
Paul didn't vote?
Coward.
No courage of his convictions.

251 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:59:24pm

re: #236 brownmear

Can't decide between abortion and the death penalty? Thou shalt not kill? How about an eye for an eye? So you are against killing? Capital punishment and abortion? You are consistent right? You are against both right? I can agree with that!

You agree to let babies live, I will agree to let killers live out their lives in prison.

Make you happy? We are all consistent now?

You're equating babies to murderers ?
Allrighty.

252 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:59:35pm

re: #198 Pianobuff

And by most people, you mean anti-abortion activists, conservatives, and christians. Do I have that right?

Nope. I mean militant liberals who promote causes they don't understand, or truly believe in (africa), I mean hipster bloggers who discuss race in abstract academic terms, but have never lived in a racially diverse neighborhood in their lives. I mean people who sign greenpeace agitprop on the street, and then go and buy bluefin tuna for dinner. I mean trust fund dimwits like Pelosi who pander to their base, and have never personally had to deal with any "crisis" they aim to solve.

I mean hypocrisy. And I don't want to start sounding like the Holden Caulfield of this thread - but I think we're reaching a fever pitch in this arena.

And as a disclaimer, I am a socially progressive fiscal conservative... not a liberal as your post implies.

-PH

253 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:59:39pm

re: #248 iceweasel

Exactly. Being pro-choice means supporting choice. I support women who choose abortion and I believe it's important that women retain the right to choose abortion. I equally support the choice to have a child, whether it's an unmarried teenage girl or a married women over 40 with a special needs child.

The original slogan, and the one that still makes sense to me, is "Our Bodies, Our Choice".

That's why it's ridiculous to claim that the pro-choice people are "pro-abortion".

funny you did not give Palin any credit for that earlier

254 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:00:02pm

re: #213 sattv4u2

Your personal narrative notwithstanding, not every abortion is excruciatingly agonize ing, not in the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd trimester.
Many are, but spend time in an inner city (think Detroit, Atlanta, New York, Boston) clinic as opposed to a smaller environe or the burbs

I hail from Pensacola, a small city where two doctors and a clinic escort have been murdered, another clinic escort shot and wounded, and clinics bombed nearly a dozen times.

Tiller was murdered by a lunatic. Niether person should be lionized, deified nor sainted imho

He lived to help people in dire circumstances when other peoples' help was unobtainable due to the dangers, and died at a murderer's hands because of the steadfast resolve of his commitment to do so. That's pretty damn special these days.

255 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:00:10pm

re: #245 tradewind

LMAO. Can they pass a resolution that Billy Jo McAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie bridge?
(The nirth thing is stupid, though. If Hawaii says he was born there, I just don't get the frenzy).


There was a virus goin round, Papa caught it and he died lost all his computer files last spring

256 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:00:24pm

re: #247 HoosierHoops

My new Internet at home sucks.. So far I have to reboot the router every 15 minutes...Need to get the Cable bugs worked out here...

No cable? I called Brighthouse on a Wednesday and had cable, high speed, and phone hooked up the day I moved in on Friday.

257 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:00:44pm

re: #245 tradewind

LMAO. Can they pass a resolution that Billy Jo McAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie bridge?

He was pushed!

258 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:01:22pm

re: #230 sattv4u2

wrong again. Please see 213

Please see 254.

259 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:01:41pm

re: #248 iceweasel

it's ridiculous to claim that the pro-choice people are "pro-abortion".

name me one pro-choice group that isn't heavily invested in the pro-abortion movement

260 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:01:49pm

re: #241 tradewind

There is laying down your life for a deeply held principle, and there is stupidity in exposing yourself to risk because you are in denial and/or unwilling to modify your lifestyle..


Tiller was murdered because he cherished the deeply held principle that women have the right to determine their reproductive destinies.

Or, if that's too fancy, he was murdered because he performed a legal medical procedure on women that other doctors were too terrified to perform because they were afraid of being murdered.

261 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:02:15pm

re: #254 Salamantis

He lived to help people in dire circumstances when other peoples' help was unobtainable due to the dangers, and died at a murderer's hands because of the steadfast resolve of his commitment to do so. That's pretty damn special these days.


with who?...everybody is special, he's just another guy with an agenda, a high profile agenda

262 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:02:22pm

re: #255 Jim in Virginia

(And now Obama doesn't seem to know how to talk off the cuff about anything...)

263 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:02:25pm

re: #252 placeholder

Nope. I mean militant liberals who promote causes they don't understand, or truly believe in (africa), I mean hipster bloggers who discuss race in abstract academic terms, but have never lived in a racially diverse neighborhood in their lives. I mean people who sign greenpeace agitprop on the street, and then go and buy bluefin tuna for dinner. I mean trust fund dimwits like Pelosi who pander to their base, and have never personally had to deal with any "crisis" they aim to solve.

I mean hypocrisy. And I don't want to start sounding like the Holden Caulfield of this thread - but I think we're reaching a fever pitch in this arena.

And as a disclaimer, I am a socially progressive fiscal conservative... not a liberal as your post implies.

-PH

Thanks for providing the extra info on your views. Nice post.

264 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:02:40pm

re: #256 Erik The Red

No cable? I called Brighthouse on a Wednesday and had cable, high speed, and phone hooked up the day I moved in on Friday.

I got the whole brighthouse package..So far..Same as the AT&T package..
You live in the cornfields the Internet generally suck big time...

265 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:03:03pm

re: #254 Salamantis

That's pretty damn special these days.

and again, "damn special" is a long way from lionized, deified nor sainted,

266 abbyadams  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:03:11pm

Just checking in here to state that some lurkers are, in fact, shy. It takes a lot for me to log in to most of the sites that I belong to (in fact, I usually do so only when I read something that to me is just so wrong that the teacher in me feels the need to correct it.) I actually am not too keen on blogs as a means to confrontation, as there's no person to make eye contact with.

I asked to join LGF because as an (I), I am more than a little bewildered at all the insanity that's going on at the moment, mostly from what has historically been known as "the right," especially the ODS that seems to be springing up everywhere. I say "the right" because I don't think that these nirthers, etc. represent any type of real conservative thought. I mean, am I really hearing that some of the elected representatives of congress, a sitting senator even, are giving credence to this garbage? I feel like I am insane!

It makes me feel better to see that there are some voices of reason here (though, wow, I was frustrated reading that thread about the "witch doctor" picture.)

Anyway, carry on. :-)

267 Greengolem64  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:03:59pm

re: #182 placeholder

I never cease to be amazed at the fluid nature of most people's beliefs and moral positions. I think I made a similar comment on a diff. thread about political hypocrisy, but what it boils down to is that most folks seem to have no problem with contradictory positions, as long as they align with their own moral positions. This is practically a textbook definition of hypocrisy.

--> Many anti-abortion activists are pro death-penalty. Huh? If this is based on biblical beliefs - which part of "Thou shall not kill" is open to debate? But... it seems there is a plethora of arguments why killing is ok in certain situations, but not others...

--> Plenty of conservatives are fundamentally opposed to governmental overreach, and meddling. But not when it comes to abortion or terri shiavo. In this case, government has to tell the people what's good for them... protect them from themselves so to speak. Same goes for homosexuality.

--> Many christians are very vocal on freedom of religion - but only theirs. Not islam...not judaism, not agnosticism. Just christianity. And some espouse only their version - literalist creationism, or some other variant.

We seem to be very willing to bargain away the most amazing, beautiful, and delicate things about this country. Our constitution is a work of art - and balance. How much the founders foresaw and tried to mitigate is astounding. Almost as if they looked into man's soul and saw what we would be capable of, and tried to save us from ourselves. How sad that we are willing to throw all of it away just to be right... today.

-PH

Just as interesting is how most "pro-choice" people are also anti-death penalty people...

Funny thing that...

/s

268 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:04:10pm

Heroism is oft times in the eye of the beholder, and much watered down in modern times. There are times when it's absolute and undeniable to anyone.

269 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:04:11pm

re: #221 Jim in Virginia

About a mile and a half. Where you at?
Do they have meatless chili?

Oh Gawd! A veggie chili to die for! Peanuts instead of beans. I love Hard Times!

270 brownmear  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:04:22pm

251 Sausquatchonsteroids

You're equating babies to murderers ?

Need another drink? No, I just want babies to live. If murderers have to live out their lives in prison to make that happen, I am all for it. And what do you stand for?

271 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:05:17pm

re: #233 Erik The Red

Sal I am not knocking anyone who supports abortion. I just disagree with it. Except in two incidents, rape and mothers life. Abortion is not birth control. Keep your legs crossed/dick in your pants.

except if you don't keep your dick in your pants - you are not faced with this decision either way are you? I think some pregnancies are a profound mistake - a life-ruining mistake for the mother and the child. Spend some time with teenage mothers to understand just how stupid this argument is.

You can't fight biology. Humans will have sex... they will have it too early. They will have it without protection sometimes - because at 17 you make some really bad decisions. The only question is how high the penalty should be for this, and if the penalty is disproportionally applied to women.

I've seen some of the children that come from these situations as a foster. Its beyond bad...not act out, learning disability, after-school special bad... but really really disturbed bad. Abortion...I hate to say this, would have been a better choice in a many situations.

-PH

272 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:05:33pm

re: #270 brownmear

251 Sausquatchonsteroids

You're equating babies to murderers ?

Need another drink? No, I just want babies to live. If murderers have to live out their lives in prison to make that happen, I am all for it. And what do you stand for?

Peeing.
Nite all.

273 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:05:34pm

re: #260 iceweasel

Tiller was murdered because he cherished the deeply held principle that women have the right to determine their reproductive destinies.

Or, if that's too fancy, he was murdered because he performed a legal medical procedure on women that other doctors were too terrified to perform because they were afraid of being murdered.

so what...7 Eleven clerks are murdered protecting the till...people are gunned down everyday trying to do the right thing...martyring this guy borders on hysterics...he's a citizen that was killed, no more than that...it's wrong to diefy him

274 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:05:34pm

re: #269 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh Gawd! A veggie chili to die for! Peanuts instead of beans. I love Hard Times!

Oh, and great other chili too. I've taken friends. They've thought the veggie was nasty, but loved the "murder specials".

275 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:05:43pm

re: #252 placeholder

Thanks for that clarification because you were painting with a very broad brush in the first post.

276 yochanan  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:05:45pm

re: #248 iceweasel

words control the debate one doesn't have to accept the terms used in a political debate for example
zionest enity vs state of Israel

277 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:05:49pm

re: #258 Salamantis

Please see 254.

as stated, your personal narrative notwithstanding. You made the statement that abortions weren't decided in a cavalier manner. I merely pointed out that in large urban blighted areas, that is incorrect

278 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:06:43pm

re: #260 iceweasel

Tiller was murdered because he cherished the deeply held principle that women have the right to determine their reproductive destinies.

Or, if that's too fancy, he was murdered because he performed a legal medical procedure on women that other doctors were too terrified to perform because they were afraid of being murdered.

Please explain the urge to make this man a martyr. He had a job. He did it. He took a risk/reward entrepreneurial approach to his business and made a lot of money. Good for him.

He was killed by a zealot. That is awful.

There is way too much being read into this drama. He did not die for your cause or any other as far as I can tell. It is what it is.

279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:06:57pm

If I don't go to bed, I'll die.

You don't want that on your conscience now, do you?

280 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:07:20pm

re: #241 tradewind

There is laying down your life for a deeply held principle, and there is stupidity in exposing yourself to risk because you are in denial and/or unwilling to modify your lifestyle.
Martyrdom is not carelessly allowing yourself to become the target for a maniac when there are alternatives. The fact that other physicians were unwilling to take that physical risk for profit that Tiller took (and please spare the anecdotes of all the pro bono work... he was a very wealthy man because of his monopoly) does not qualify him for sainthood.

The man took all kinds of precautions. For years after being shot in both arms, he was guarded by federal marshalls. He wore a bulletproof vest (that's why the head shot) and drove an armored SUV. And all this because he was providing a legal and necessary and life saving and health preserving service that fanatics were willing to murder him for providing. He should not have had to change professions, and he didn't, even though in constant danger; he was desperately needed in the one he chose, and knew it.

And he was finally gunned down in the sanctuary of his church.

281 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:07:49pm

re: #236 brownmear

Can't decide between abortion and the death penalty? Thou shalt not kill? How about an eye for an eye?

Aaaargh. "Eye for an eye" is in the section on tort law, and refers to the value of an eye, not to a literal eye.

Somebody should make a list of the "Top 10 Most Misinterpreted/Misunderstood/Mistranslated Bible Verses"

282 SteveC  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:08:18pm

OT -

Filipe Massa still in hospital

Massa suffered multiple skull fractures when a loose car part ricocheted off the track and hit his helmet, concussing him.

Massa was going 150 MPH+ and the debris weighed 800 grams, almost 2 pounds. That had to be a hell of an impact.

283 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:08:19pm

re: #242 Shug

Is he talking about David Koresh ?

As much as you are talking about Jim Jones.

284 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:08:20pm

re: #267 Greengolem64

Just as interesting is how most "pro-choice" people are also anti-death penalty people...

Funny thing that...

/s

all depends on how you define murder doesn't it?

285 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:08:34pm

re: #259 sattv4u2

it's ridiculous to claim that the pro-choice people are "pro-abortion".

name me one pro-choice group that isn't heavily invested in the pro-abortion movement

There is no such thing in the US as a 'pro-abortion' movement.

286 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:08:43pm

re: #233 Erik The Red

Sal I am not knocking anyone who supports abortion. I just disagree with it. Except in two incidents, rape and mothers life. Abortion is not birth control. Keep your legs crossed/dick in your pants.

Erik: Do you consider abortion to be murder?

Why should a child be aborted because his/her father committed a crime? Are there "degrees" of wrongness to abortion, or is an absolute sin? If there are "degrees," who gets to decide them?

287 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:08:47pm

re: #232 Thanos

Bachman tried to block it. arrrghhh

She's such a loon. Also from Dkos: I'm Running Against Michele Bachmann, and I'm Running to Win

by Elwyn Tinklenberg

Elwyn Tinklenberg? Heh.

288 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:09:08pm

re: #260 iceweasel

Too fancy?
Not so much.
Using the term ' cherish ' in that context...too farfetched.
In this case, the old saying ' follow the money ' once again applies.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...but substituting another motive is just hypocritical.

289 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:09:19pm

re: #281 Alouette

Aaaargh. "Eye for an eye" is in the section on tort law, and refers to the value of an eye, not to a literal eye.

Somebody should make a list of the "Top 10 Most Misinterpreted/Misunderstood/Mistranslated Bible Verses"

I nominate you because I am interested :)

290 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:09:37pm

re: #279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If I don't go to bed, I'll die.

You don't want that on your conscience now, do you?

I ain't carryin your coffin, ya fat bastard

291 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:09:42pm

re: #261 albusteve

with who?...everybody is special, he's just another guy with an agenda, a high profile agenda

Seldom have I seen such an eloquent comment receive such an ineloquent reply.

What was his agenda? To make money? He could have made far more money in a different medical practice, one in which he didn't have to spend so much money to try to protect himself and his coworkers from scum like the man who murdered him.

Do you think his agenda was to make it possible for more women to have abortions? He could have brought about at least as many abortions by being some sort of an activist, or maybe a legislator, or by training residents, or doing any number of things that didn't destroy his personal privacy, beset his professional life with frivolous legal actions, and put his life in perpetual danger.

292 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:09:53pm

re: #266 abbyadams

Don't be shy. We don't bite...much.

293 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:10:11pm

re: #285 iceweasel

There is no such thing in the US as a 'pro-abortion' movement.

I use the terms "choice movement" and "abortion industry" to distinguish the philosophical side from the business side. Is that acceptable?

294 notamolly  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:10:14pm

re: #112 jaunte

If there were eager adoptive parents waiting for all the babies that were to be born, there would be fewer abortions. But that doesn't occur to some, they'd first rather control what other people do than offer a home to life.

There are waiting lists for babies. There are plenty of eager adoptive parents who would give their right eye for a baby. Why do you think people go overseas and spend thousands of $$ for a kid? Next argument please.

295 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:10:18pm

re: #271 placeholder

except if you don't keep your dick in your pants - you are not faced with this decision either way are you? I think some pregnancies are a profound mistake - a life-ruining mistake for the mother and the child. Spend some time with teenage mothers to understand just how stupid this argument is.

You can't fight biology. Humans will have sex... they will have it too early. They will have it without protection sometimes - because at 17 you make some really bad decisions. The only question is how high the penalty should be for this, and if the penalty is disproportionally applied to women.

I've seen some of the children that come from these situations as a foster. Its beyond bad...not act out, learning disability, after-school special bad... but really really disturbed bad. Abortion...I hate to say this, would have been a better choice in a many situations.

-PH

Two words and it is widely available.

BIRTH CONTROL.

All actions have a consequence. If you are old enough to have sex take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for your actions. It is NOT the unborn baby's fault.

296 lobo91  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:10:18pm

re: #285 iceweasel

There is no such thing in the US as a 'pro-abortion' movement.

True, it's a highly profitable industry.

297 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:10:19pm

re: #283 Salamantis

As much as you are talking about Jim Jones.

both died in posession of their convictions

298 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:10:39pm

re: #285 iceweasel

There is no such thing in the US as a 'pro-abortion' movement.

oookkkaayyy then

299 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:10:42pm

re: #161 Joo-LiZ

Seems like quite a slow day today...

Check out this unbelievably good speech by pro-Israeli Mike Harris in front of a crowd of leftist Jews before a film about Rachel Corrie at the San Francisco Jewish Film Festival.


[Video]

Wow.

Awesome video.

300 transient  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:10:43pm

re: #281 Alouette


Somebody should make a list of the "Top 10 Most Misinterpreted/Misunderstood/Mistranslated Bible Verses"

72 virgins/raisins?

Oh, sorry...wrong holy book.

301 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:11:00pm

re: #294 notamolly

How many children have you adopted?

302 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:11:18pm

re: #284 placeholder

all depends on how you define murder doesn't it?

PETA members define eating a burger as murder.

303 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:11:41pm

re: #259 sattv4u2

it's ridiculous to claim that the pro-choice people are "pro-abortion".

name me one pro-choice group that isn't heavily invested in the pro-abortion movement

They're interested in keeping that choice open, not in subsidizing it.

I don't think that Catholics for a Free Choice bankrolls abortion clinics.

304 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:11:42pm

re: #280 Salamantis

The man took all kinds of precautions. For years after being shot in both arms, he was guarded by federal marshalls. He wore a bulletproof vest (that's why the head shot) and drove an armored SUV. And all this because he was providing a legal and necessary and life saving and health preserving service that fanatics were willing to murder him for providing. He should not have had to change professions, and he didn't, even though in constant danger; he was desperately needed in the one he chose, and knew it.

And he was finally gunned down in the sanctuary of his church.

he was every bit as fanatic as his killers...he could have closed up shop and split for the Bahamas...after score of thousands of abortions maybe he should have thought about retirement...you take it too deep...he was a target and he knew it...so are cops and taxi drivers and hookers

305 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:11:58pm

re: #287 Killgore Trout

Elwyn Tinklenberg? Heh.

someone got a bad hand dealt at Scabble!

306 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:12:04pm

re: #287 Killgore Trout

Elwyn Tinklenberg is funny? I'll have you know that is my Uncle. My name is Englebert Humberdink Tinklenberg, in honor of the great entertainer.

(oh wow, can you imagine what happened to that poor thing on the playground? Couldn't his mother have named him Stud Tinklenberg or something?)

307 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:12:07pm

re: #277 sattv4u2

as stated, your personal narrative notwithstanding. You made the statement that abortions weren't decided in a cavalier manner. I merely pointed out that in large urban blighted areas, that is incorrect

satt: Do you personally interview these inner-city women, to determine whether they are agonizing enough? How do you get your information? Who sets the standard for "agony"? Can you read people's minds?

308 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:12:14pm

re: #285 iceweasel

There is no such thing in the US as a 'pro-abortion' movement.

HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA
HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA

309 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:12:25pm

re: #270 brownmear

251 Sausquatchonsteroids

You're equating babies to murderers ?

Need another drink? No, I just want babies to live. If murderers have to live out their lives in prison to make that happen, I am all for it. And what do you stand for?

you are assuming that everyone agrees with your definition of the term "baby." many don't. I detest abortion - and I hate the fact that it happens - but I accept that is has to happen sometimes. that doesn't make me a pro-abortionist... it just makes me a realist. Absolutism is the first step towards facism... and radicalism.

310 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:12:31pm

re: #261 albusteve

with who?...everybody is special, he's just another guy with an agenda, a high profile agenda

He's a guy who lost his life because he refused to turn away from need.

311 Desert Dog  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:12:33pm

re: #302 Alouette

PETA members define eating a burger as murder.

I just committed a mulitple murder then, we just ate some mucho gusto carne!

312 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:13:03pm

re: #302 Alouette

PETA members define eating a burger as murder.

I could kill a double double animal style right about now

313 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:13:19pm

re: #303 Salamantis

They're interested in keeping that choice open, not in subsidizing it.
I don't think that Catholics for a Free Choice bankrolls abortion clinics.

314 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:13:58pm

re: #275 experiencedtraveller

Thanks for that clarification because you were painting with a very broad brush in the first post.

its a large canvas :)

315 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:14:01pm

re: #307 ShanghaiEd

satt: Do you personally interview these inner-city women, to determine whether they are agonizing enough? How do you get your information? Who sets the standard for "agony"? Can you read people's minds?

Spemd time with an inner city welfare case worker, as I have

316 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:14:02pm

re: #278 The Shadow Do

Please explain the urge to make this man a martyr. He had a job. He did it. He took a risk/reward entrepreneurial approach to his business and made a lot of money. Good for him.

He was killed by a zealot. That is awful.

There is way too much being read into this drama. He did not die for your cause or any other as far as I can tell. It is what it is.


Really? He 'had a job, he did it'?

He chose to do a job that only 3 people in the US were brave enough to do. He kept doing it after years of death threats and one assassination attempt.

He died for a cause. The cause of all those fuckwits who want to murder abortion providers because Roe v Wade isn't going to change. THAT cause.

317 yochanan  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:14:08pm

re: #302 Alouette

hell swatting the fly would be murder by them.

318 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:14:26pm

Just prior to Tiller's murder he was found not guilty of criminal charges of bypassing the Kansas law about the need for an independent second opinion from a Kansas doctor prior to performing late term abortions. His defense was that because he was referred to the other doctor by the executive director of the Kansas Board of Healing Arts, that it was tacit approval to bypass the law about financial independence. The jury bought it and Tiller walked. That was 8 weeks before his murder. Operation Rescue people attending the court proceedings. I'm guessing after the case failed some of them plotted their own version of "justice". I doubt the gunman acted completely alone.

Tiller was charged with 19 criminal misdemeanor counts. Kansas law requires that a physician get a second opinion from a doctor with whom he or she has no legal or financial ties before terminating a pregnancy of longer than 22 weeks when the fetus is considered "viable" (able to survive outside the womb)...

The prosecution tried to show that Tiller's relationship to Neuhaus, who provided referrals in 2003 for the 19 women whose late-term abortions were the basis of the criminal charges, was not financially independent.

Disney said that Neuhaus, a witness for the state who received a grant of immunity to testify, essentially functioned as Tiller's employee. She saw his patients at his office, and on his schedule. Also, in 2003, Tiller's patients provided her with her only income.

And, in what Disney described as "the smoking gun," Tiller's own day planner reflected that in 1999, he had discussed on the phone the rate that Neuhaus would charge his patients for a consultation (Tiller had written "$200-$250").

319 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:14:46pm

re: #271 placeholder

I think some pregnancies are a profound mistake - a life-ruining mistake for the mother and the child. ...I've seen some of the children that come from these situations as a foster. Its beyond bad... really really disturbed bad. Abortion...I hate to say this, would have been a better choice in many situations.

-PH

My sister was adopted at four months. She had serious mental health issues. Was it heredity, or an ever present belief that her birth parents didn't want her? My parents- her adoptive parents -loved her as much as they could but could never love her enough.
So did I. Or tried.
The suggestion that abortion would have been a better choice for her mother makes me want to punch the shit out of you.

320 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:14:47pm

re: #265 sattv4u2

That's pretty damn special these days.

and again, "damn special" is a long way from lionized, deified nor sainted,

It ain't a religion thing; it's a freedom thing. Dr. Tiller is a martyr for personal choice in the matter of reproductive freedom. And a martyr in the cause of refusing to sacrifice the lives and healths of women for the sakes of the fetuses they carry.

321 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:15:23pm

re: #286 ShanghaiEd

Erik: Do you consider abortion to be murder?

Why should a child be aborted because his/her father committed a crime? Are there "degrees" of wrongness to abortion, or is an absolute sin? If there are "degrees," who gets to decide them?

I do believe it is Murder. The victim is a voiceless unwilling participant in the whole "heat of the moment". I will concede two points; Rape and if the mother's life is in danger.

322 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:15:32pm

re: #303 Salamantis

They're interested in keeping that choice open, not in subsidizing it.
I don't think that Catholics for a Free Choice bankrolls abortion clinics.

no ,, they want the gov't to do that. And as for Catholics for Free Choice, they want it done charitably

323 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:15:40pm

re: #296 lobo91

True, it's a highly profitable industry.

lobo: More profitable than other medical specialties? Do you have a link? How is this relevant? If abortions were done on a non-profit basis, you would be OK with that?

324 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:15:43pm

re: #291 Last Mohican

Seldom have I seen such an eloquent comment receive such an ineloquent reply.

What was his agenda? To make money? He could have made far more money in a different medical practice, one in which he didn't have to spend so much money to try to protect himself and his coworkers from scum like the man who murdered him.

Do you think his agenda was to make it possible for more women to have abortions? He could have brought about at least as many abortions by being some sort of an activist, or maybe a legislator, or by training residents, or doing any number of things that didn't destroy his personal privacy, beset his professional life with frivolous legal actions, and put his life in perpetual danger.

his agenda was performing abortions...lots of them and he knew his life was on the line even tho he was making a ton of money...and I don't care about ineloquence...all I care about is the law...save your eloquence for others

325 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:15:44pm

re: #294 notamolly

There are waiting lists for babies. There are plenty of eager adoptive parents who would give their right eye for a baby. Why do you think people go overseas and spend thousands of $$ for a kid? Next argument please.

There are children, (not babies) thousands of them, who are waiting to be adopted, but most adoptive parents want something more specific than what is available. I know from the varying costs I've had to cover for my kids.
If more people were willing to adopt without waiting for the perfect match, more children would be born.

326 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:15:47pm

re: #318 Mich-again

Just prior to Tiller's murder he was found not guilty of criminal charges of bypassing the Kansas law about the need for an independent second opinion from a Kansas doctor prior to performing late term abortions. His defense was that because he was referred to the other doctor by the executive director of the Kansas Board of Healing Arts, that it was tacit approval to bypass the law about financial independence. The jury bought it and Tiller walked. That was 8 weeks before his murder. Operation Rescue people attending the court proceedings. I'm guessing after the case failed some of them plotted their own version of "justice". I doubt the gunman acted completely alone.

You;d be right. Roeder attended all of Tiller's court appearances, and he got that info from Operation rescue.

327 notamolly  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:17:04pm

re: #301 jaunte

How many children have you adopted?

We are on the list to adopt (the average wait being about a year or 18 months). Have YOU adopted any or funded an adoption?

328 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:17:52pm

re: #308 Shug

HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA
HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA

Shug: When you get through laughing, could you provide a link to a group of activists whose job is "pro-abortion"...i.e, trying to convince women who don't want an abortion to have one, anyway? That's "pro-abortion," and I haven't seen such a group. Please enlighten me if you know of one.

329 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:17:56pm

re: #273 albusteve

so what...7 Eleven clerks are murdered protecting the till...people are gunned down everyday trying to do the right thing...martyring this guy borders on hysterics...he's a citizen that was killed, no more than that...it's wrong to diefy him

Protecting 'the till' and protecting womens' lives and physical health are two entirely different categories of things.

And I have been both a clinic escort and a convenience store clerk, so I'm in a position to know.

330 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:18:16pm

re: #327 notamolly

I have four. If you're willing to take a child of a race other than your own, or one slightly older, or siblings, or one with health problems, your wait will be shorter.

331 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:18:18pm

re: #310 Salamantis

He's a guy who lost his life because he refused to turn away from need.

we disagree on the social aspect of it...what we need is more personal responsibility and fewer abortions...need seems to be relative

332 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:18:22pm

re: #260 iceweasel

Tiller was murdered because he cherished the deeply held principle that women have the right to determine their reproductive destinies.

Or, if that's too fancy, he was murdered because he performed a legal medical procedure on women that other doctors were too terrified to perform because they were afraid of being murdered.

I would be willing to bet that there are at least some "other doctors" (quoting the words in your post, not 'scare' quotes) that don't perform this procedure because they find it abhorrent.

333 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:18:27pm

re: #294 notamolly

There are waiting lists for babies. There are plenty of eager adoptive parents who would give their right eye for a baby. Why do you think people go overseas and spend thousands of $$ for a kid? Next argument please.

this isn't accurate. look at adoption statistics. many adoptive parents are looking for something very specific... a newborn caucasian baby. nobody is lining up to adopt developmentally challenged baby of any race. nobody is lining up to adopt black babies. nobody is lining up to foster kids who were born to single mothers and have massive developmental challenges...

your argument is not only incorrect - its morally toxic. most people advocating the type of abortion absolutism we're discussing would never even contemplate trying to foster or adopt kids coming out of these types of situations. its armchair moralism that has profound impact... life-altering impact on many people.

-PH

334 Gearhead  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:18:41pm

re: #306 ArmyWife

Elwyn Tinklenberg is funny? I'll have you know that is my Uncle. My name is Englebert Humberdink Tinklenberg, in honor of the great entertainer.

(oh wow, can you imagine what happened to that poor thing on the playground? Couldn't his mother have named him Stud Tinklenberg or something?)

Well at least his first name wasn't something like Peter as in, "eminent urologist Peter Tinklenberg..."

335 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:19:22pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

Spemd time with an inner city welfare case worker, as I have

I have done that, Sal, as a newspaper reporter. I still can't read minds, or tell how much a woman is "agonizing." How do you do this?

336 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:19:22pm

re: #277 sattv4u2

as stated, your personal narrative notwithstanding. You made the statement that abortions weren't decided in a cavalier manner. I merely pointed out that in large urban blighted areas, that is incorrect

It may be incorrect in some minority of cases, but that is no reason to slime the majority for which it is incorrect.

337 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:19:57pm

re: #328 ShanghaiEd

Shug: When you get through laughing, could you provide a link to a group of activists whose job is "pro-abortion"...i.e, trying to convince women who don't want an abortion to have one, anyway? That's "pro-abortion," and I haven't seen such a group. Please enlighten me if you know of one.

NARAL

338 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:20:18pm

re: #335 ShanghaiEd

I have done that, Sal, as a newspaper reporter. I still can't read minds, or tell how much a woman is "agonizing." How do you do this?

PIMF. I meant to type "satt," not "Sal." Obviously. Sorry about that.

339 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:20:26pm

re: #328 ShanghaiEd

Shug: When you get through laughing, could you provide a link to a group of activists whose job is "pro-abortion"...i.e, trying to convince women who don't want an abortion to have one, anyway? That's "pro-abortion," and I haven't seen such a group. Please enlighten me if you know of one.

Just google it and you will find all the links you want.

340 Desert Dog  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:20:45pm

re: #321 Erik The Red

I do believe it is Murder. The victim is a voiceless unwilling participant in the whole "heat of the moment". I will concede two points; Rape and if the mother's life is in danger.

I'll risk the downdings and scorn from fellow lizards, but if you leave that "choice" alone, it becomes a little baby...My oldest was a preemie...my wife was only 24 weeks...He was tiny and fragile...today he is 6'2" and strong as an ox. Once that egg is fertilized, that is a beginnings of a life...to snuff it out breaks my heart.

There are many reasons women get an abortion, I know that. But it does not take away from the fact they are taking a life when they do that.

341 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:07pm

re: #291 Last Mohican

Re his motivation for the continuing exposure to personal danger: zealots are not limited to one point of view or ideology.
Just saying.

342 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:22pm

re: #278 The Shadow Do

Please explain the urge to make this man a martyr. He had a job. He did it. He took a risk/reward entrepreneurial approach to his business and made a lot of money. Good for him.

He was killed by a zealot. That is awful.

There is way too much being read into this drama. He did not die for your cause or any other as far as I can tell. It is what it is.

If you had closely perused the story, you would have read that he took upon himself his dead father's mantle of helping women in such circumstances. That sounds like a cause to me.

343 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:25pm

re: #329 Salamantis

Protecting 'the till' and protecting womens' lives and physical health are two entirely different categories of things.

And I have been both a clinic escort and a convenience store clerk, so I'm in a position to know.

it's not about protecting physical health...it's about convenience and people have a problem with that...it's a machine...a multi billion dollar industry...it's about creating victims for money...it's fucking sick

344 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:33pm

re: #332 reine.de.tout

I would be willing to bet that there are at least some "other doctors" (quoting the words in your post, not 'scare' quotes) that don't perform this procedure because they find it abhorrent.

There absolutely are, and they have every right to refuse to perform abortions. That has absolutely nothing to do with the post to which you were replying.

345 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:35pm

re: #336 Salamantis

It may be incorrect in some minority of cases, but that is no reason to slime the majority for which it is incorrect.

Neither of us can claim that the "majority" leans one way or the other. For either of us to do so is disingenuous at best. You have your anecdotes, I have mine. You know aht you've seen/ heard, same with me

346 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:45pm

re: #333 placeholder

this isn't accurate. look at adoption statistics. many adoptive parents are looking for something very specific... a newborn caucasian baby. nobody is lining up to adopt developmentally challenged baby of any race. nobody is lining up to adopt black babies. nobody is lining up to foster kids who were born to single mothers and have massive developmental challenges...

You are correct. In my experience the adoptive parents in my city were paying $30,000 in medical expenses to wait two years for the chance of a caucasian baby instead of paying $6,000 in expenses for a mixed race, black, or hispanic baby.

347 transient  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:50pm

Ah, what wouldn't I give for a nice, quiet noncontroversial evolution/ creation thread!

348 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:53pm

re: #337 Shug

NARAL

Uhhh...I know there are pro-choice organizations, Shug. You said there are groups whose purpose is to convince women who don't want abortions to have one anyway. I asked for a link to this policy.

349 CynicalConservative  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:21:54pm

I foresee the newest LGF feature being exercised soon. That is all.

350 Kaymad  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:22:15pm

"Not a single Kansas politician of statewide prominence showed up the next morning for Dr. Tiller’s funeral, which drew 1,200 mourners. Nor were any at Reformation Lutheran the next day, the first Sunday service after his death".

I cannot think of one reason a Kansas politician should show up to a funeral of a man they did not know. Why would they attend his church?

Tiller has his family, his friends and his colleagues to defend and honor his memory. I don't think a politician attending his funeral would have served any purpose. It's really kind of strange they would even bring it up.

351 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:22:24pm

re: #330 jaunte

My husband is adopted. We researched it before I became pregnant with my second baby - I had multiple miscarriage in between pregnancies that I cry over to this day. We specifically sought a baby of a different race, and we were told by the agency that the adoption wouldn't be granted as we wouldn't be able to provide insight into the "culture". I didn't care about culture, I could have given a warm, loving home. I was upset and gave up on the whole thing. I regret that decision, though I don't regret having my second baby for one nanosecond.

I've not ruled out adopting in the future.

352 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:22:27pm

Abortion is legal. Whether or not a woman gets one is her choice. I personally don't care how much or little she "agonizes" over the decision. That's her business.

353 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:22:30pm

re: #335 ShanghaiEd

I have done that, Sal, as a newspaper reporter. I still can't read minds, or tell how much a woman is "agonizing." How do you do this?


I use lessons taught to me decades ago
STOP
LOOK
LISTEN
LEARN

354 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:23:54pm

re: #344 Last Mohican

There absolutely are, and they have every right to refuse to perform abortions. That has absolutely nothing to do with the post to which you were replying.

LM ... some of this goes back to when it was posted here that Tiller was one of only a very few who were "qualified" or "experienced" enough to perform the late-term abortions ... I am sure there are many doctors who could perform these types of abortions if they wanted to but choose not to for many reasons ...

355 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:23:57pm

re: #319 Jim in Virginia

My sister was adopted at four months. She had serious mental health issues. Was it heredity, or an ever present belief that her birth parents didn't want her? My parents- her adoptive parents -loved her as much as they could but could never love her enough.
So did I. Or tried.
The suggestion that abortion would have been a better choice for her mother makes me want to punch the shit out of you.

welcome to reality. you want to talk about abortion? then let's talk about adoption. let's talk about foster care. let's talk about the actual truth of what happens to these babies, how they are treated by their parent. let's talk about what kind of mother a 16 year old makes. or a 22 year old crack head makes.

you want to punch the shit out of me? go ahead. i want to punch the shit out of people who tell 16 year olds to keep their kid, and put them up for adoption - except that nobody is looking for a baby from 16 years old dominicans with emotional problems.

of course there are incredibly adoptive parents...and they love their adoptive kids. but there are simply not enough of them to make this argument work. using a personal example to make a point in this debate is like saying would you want someone who murdered your kids put to death. of course i would - but it doesn't make good government policy in my opinion.

-PH

356 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:24:11pm

re: #339 Erik The Red

Just google it and you will find all the links you want.

I just googled "pro-abortion," and I didn't find anything relevant. I'm not saying there's isn't such a group, but I can't find it by googling.

357 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:24:14pm

re: #328 ShanghaiEd

Shug: When you get through laughing, could you provide a link to a group of activists whose job is "pro-abortion"...i.e, trying to convince women who don't want an abortion to have one, anyway? That's "pro-abortion," and I haven't seen such a group. Please enlighten me if you know of one.

If there was such a group, my mother and my grandmother would be members.

BTW my mother enjoys her grandchildren and great-grandchildren now.

358 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:24:17pm

re: #332 reine.de.tout

I would be willing to bet that there are at least some "other doctors" (quoting the words in your post, not 'scare' quotes) that don't perform this procedure because they find it abhorrent.

re: #348 ShanghaiEd

Uhhh...I know there are pro-choice organizations, Shug. You said there are groups whose purpose is to convince women who don't want abortions to have one anyway. I asked for a link to this policy.

Corporal, can you tell me where to find a Code Red in the Marine Corps field manual?

sure, it's right next to where the mess hall is

359 McNug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:24:24pm
“And I’ve heard that three women have actually changed their minds and had their babies because there’s no availability here,” he said. “Wichita has been abortion-free since that time."

Well...outside of the back alleys, at any rate.

Pig.

360 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:24:42pm

re: #340 Desert Dog

I'll risk the downdings and scorn from fellow lizards, but if you leave that "choice" alone, it becomes a little baby...My oldest was a preemie...my wife was only 24 weeks...He was tiny and fragile...today he is 6'2" and strong as an ox. Once that egg is fertilized, that is a beginnings of a life...to snuff it out breaks my heart.

There are many reasons women get an abortion, I know that. But it does not take away from the fact they are taking a life when they do that.

I was my mom's "Sweet Sixteenth Birthday Present". 8 weeks premmie, in 1968. I am now 5'11 and 240 lbs. Thank God that my mom and dad never went down that road. Was it hard for them? Of course. Did they get through it? Yes.

361 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:25:17pm

re: #351 ArmyWife

It's a great experience; I had a similar 'wrong culture' experience through the state adoption agencies, but went around them adopted my son through a private agency. Good luck as you keep trying.

362 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:25:25pm

re: #351 ArmyWife {army wife}

363 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:25:46pm

re: #297 Shug

both died in posession of their convictions

Surrounded by the people that they demanded die along with them, rather than fondly remembered by all the women whose lives or health they saved, and their family and friends.

364 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:25:54pm

re: #348 ShanghaiEd

Uhhh...I know there are pro-choice organizations, Shug. You said there are groups whose purpose is to convince women who don't want abortions to have one anyway. I asked for a link to this policy.


really , I said this?

where?

365 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:26:11pm

re: #353 sattv4u2

I use lessons taught to me decades ago
STOP
LOOK
LISTEN
LEARN

I envy your God-like powers, satt. I couldn't read anybody's mind if my life depended on it.

366 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:26:26pm

re: #347 transient

Ah, what wouldn't I give for a nice, quiet noncontroversial evolution/ creation thread!

Thank iceweasel for this one.

367 Gearhead  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:26:45pm

re: #349 CynicalConservative

I foresee the newest LGF feature being exercised soon. That is all.

Cynic

/

368 researchok  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:26:48pm

re: #183 esch

Yes. Death comes to us all. No one has the right to enslave or take from an innocent against their will to try to prevent their own death.

If we don't impose our will on others when it comes to organ donation, why should we impose our will on a woman seeking an abortion?

369 transient  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:27:17pm

re: #352 Cato the Elder

OT, but can you recommend a translation of Xenophon's Anabasis that is neither too stilted nor overly simplified? Just readable, and reasonably accurate?

I started to read it online; great story, but painful translation.

370 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:28:04pm

re: #358 Shug

Corporal, can you tell me where to find a Code Red in the Marine Corps field manual?

sure, it's right next to where the mess hall is

I assume that's a joke, Shug, but it went right over my head. Sorry. I was in the Army, not the Marines.

371 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:28:21pm

re: #316 iceweasel

Really? He 'had a job, he did it'?

He chose to do a job that only 3 people in the US were brave enough to do. He kept doing it after years of death threats and one assassination attempt.

He died for a cause. The cause of all those fuckwits who want to murder abortion providers because Roe v Wade isn't going to change. THAT cause.

Again, why do you want to project this heroic depiction on this man? Perhaps he was, but neither you nor I really know that.

I would no more lionize this guy than the man who works on my car. Both mechanics. In fact, a better analogy might be a construction contractor who does high work - he gets paid better than the next guy who does not, but that is just my opinion of course.

I have no evidence this guy was on some sort of altruistic mission, and neither do you.

372 Bloodnok  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:28:21pm

re: #366 Erik The Red

Thank iceweasel for this one.

Yeah. How could a Tiller thread have ever veered toward the topic of abortion without those pesky libs around to poison our minds?

/sheesh

373 Altermite  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:28:35pm

re: #370 ShanghaiEd

I assume that's a joke, Shug, but it went right over my head. Sorry. I was in the Army, not the Marines.

code red is a flavor of mountain dew.

374 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:28:42pm

re: #304 albusteve

he was every bit as fanatic as his killers...he could have closed up shop and split for the Bahamas...after score of thousands of abortions maybe he should have thought about retirement...you take it too deep...he was a target and he knew it...so are cops and taxi drivers and hookers

So was Jesus a knowing target. Are you gonna equate him with cops and taxi drivers and hookers now?

He did what he did because he believed in it. He believed in helping those women. Otherwise, he would have made big bucks in a different profession without the publicity, personal restrictions, and constant dangers.

375 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:28:44pm

re: #366 Erik The Red

Thank iceweasel for this one.

I'm playing the cards dealt me...people are not into music...

376 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:29:00pm

re: #365 ShanghaiEd

I envy your God-like powers, satt. I couldn't read anybody's mind if my life depended on it.

Actually, very human like. We've been an intuitive species for eons now. I'll even bet that's how we;ve survived low these many ages as lower life forms have vanished

377 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:29:17pm

re: #211 lobo91

Oh for sure. Bet that Helen Thomas asks that one right off the bat away .
Hmmm... may be a job for Lester.

378 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:29:18pm

re: #366 Erik The Red

Thank iceweasel for this one.

Yes. The nerve of her, to talk about abortion on a thread that's about...an abortion doctor. Trouble-maker.
/

379 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:29:52pm

re: #372 Bloodnok

Yeah. How could a Tiller thread have ever veered toward the topic of abortion without those pesky libs around to poison our minds?

/sheesh

The topic is about MURDER not abortion.

380 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:30:05pm

re: #375 albusteve

I'm playing the cards dealt me...people are not into music...

albusteve ... Hey! ... I went to Chinks this evening ... no comparison to the PCS I had last night ... it was the best ... and the Banana Milkshake ... heaven! ... thanks for recommending that place ...

381 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:30:16pm

re: #343 albusteve


And I have been both a clinic escort and a convenience store clerk, so I'm in a position to know.


Come on... how can you argue with that resume?

382 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:30:29pm

re: #374 Salamantis

So was Jesus a knowing target. Are you gonna equate him with cops and taxi drivers and hookers now?

He did what he did because he believed in it. He believed in helping those women. Otherwise, he would have made big bucks in a different profession without the publicity, personal restrictions, and constant dangers.

I don't know the guy...what's he got to do with abortion?

383 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:30:36pm

re: #370 ShanghaiEd

I assume that's a joke, Shug, but it went right over my head. Sorry. I was in the Army, not the Marines.

It's from the court scene in a Few Good Men with Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise

384 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:30:45pm

re: #374 Salamantis

So was Jesus a knowing target. Are you gonna equate him with cops and taxi drivers and hookers now?

He did what he did because he believed in it. He believed in helping those women. Otherwise, he would have made big bucks in a different profession without the publicity, personal restrictions, and constant dangers.


so Tiller is like Jesus Christ now?

nite all

385 Kaymad  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:30:48pm

re: #374 Salamantis

So you're equating Tiller with Jesus? Tiller performed partial birth abortions. Not exactly up there with healing the sick.

386 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:30:52pm

re: #376 sattv4u2

Actually, very human like. We've been an intuitive species for eons now. I'll even bet that's how we;ve survived low these many ages as lower life forms have vanished

Yep. It's hard to beat intuition as the basis for a legal system.

387 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:31:09pm

re: #371 The Shadow Do


I would no more lionize this guy than the man who works on my car. Both mechanics.

Maybe you think of a doctor who can perform the most intimate and important services to women as merely "a mechanic". I do not.

388 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:31:47pm

re: #366 Erik The Red

Thank iceweasel for this one.

Umm...Iceweasel is posting threads here now? Did she hack Stinky's account?

389 notamolly  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:32:08pm

re: #325 jaunte

There are children, (not babies) thousands of them, who are waiting to be adopted, but most adoptive parents want something more specific than what is available. I know from the varying costs I've had to cover for my kids.
If more people were willing to adopt without waiting for the perfect match, more children would be born.

And some folks are painfully aware that they are NOT suited to do foster to adopt. It takes a special parent to be able to handle all the issues that come with a kiddo from the system.

390 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:32:08pm

re: #344 Last Mohican

There absolutely are, and they have every right to refuse to perform abortions. That has absolutely nothing to do with the post to which you were replying.

The point has been made that there are only 3 doctors in the country who perform these "late-term" abortions because other doctors decline to perform this procedure out of some fear for their lives.

I think it's perfectly appropriate point out that perhaps, just perhaps, there are only 3 doctors who perform this procedure because many other doctors find the procedure abhorrent, not because they fear for their lives.

391 brownmear  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:32:08pm

I am glad to see that little green footballs is all about abortion and the "nirthers" 24 hours a day now.

No reason to check back anymore.

392 Greengolem64  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:32:11pm

Moving into the realm of OT...but still some relevance (maybe):

Since Roe v. Wade... ~49 Million abortions have been performed
[Link: www.cdc.gov...]
(data only goes to 2003)

That #, 49 Million would have been enough to be considered the 24th or 25th most populous country in the world according to:
[Link: www.cia.gov...] right in between ITALY and South Africa


From roughly the same time frame as R v. W (1976) 1171 death sentences carried out...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Whereas the death sentences carried out would have been enough to populate the 234th or 235th largest country...right in between the island nation of Niue and The Holy See in the Vatican (some irony there maybe)

Just trying to put a little perspective on the arguments

393 Bloodnok  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:32:24pm

re: #379 Erik The Red

The topic is about MURDER not abortion.

You're right. It never would have come up otherwise. How silly of me.

394 ArmyWife  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:32:26pm

my spidey sense is telling me trouble is brewing. I'm off to bed.

395 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:32:55pm

re: #386 ShanghaiEd

Yep. It's hard to beat intuition as the basis for a legal system.

Where did the "legal system" enter the picture of Sal or my discussions with women about to have an abortion?

396 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:33:33pm

re: #380 JacksonTn

albusteve ... Hey! ... I went to Chinks this evening ... no comparison to the PCS I had last night ... it was the best ... and the Banana Milkshake ... heaven! ... thanks for recommending that place ...

CHINKS!...your'e in Philly?...they hate me over there, but true to the core albusteve loves them nevertheless...my Philly gangster pals...Chinks is the very best in the city...you did good

397 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:33:38pm

re: #374 Salamantis

So was Jesus a knowing target. Are you gonna equate him with cops and taxi drivers and hookers now?

He did what he did because he believed in it. He believed in helping those women. Otherwise, he would have made big bucks in a different profession without the publicity, personal restrictions, and constant dangers.

Obviously Jesus asked for it, Sal. Sheesh. Aren't you up to speed on wingnut speak yet?

398 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:33:45pm

Demanding that women "agonize" over abortions is like insisting that poor people be ashamed of taking charity.

399 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:33:57pm

re: #355 placeholder

Why disregard for the rules of capitalization?

400 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:34:10pm

re: #391 brownmear

I am glad to see that little green footballs is all about abortion and the "nirthers" 24 hours a day now.

No reason to check back anymore.

Well, it's good to know we won't have to read anymore of your inane posts then, will we!

401 Kaymad  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:34:44pm

re: #387 iceweasel

So delivering a baby and ramming a pair of scissors into the base of its skull because the baby has downs syndrom, or mom has changed her mind, or whatever reason, is "the most intimate and important services to women"??

huh. I never looked at it that way.

402 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:34:58pm

re: #394 ArmyWife

my spidey sense is telling me trouble is brewing. I'm off to bed.

Me too ,,, ummm,, not WITH you, mind you ,, umm,,,not that I wouldn't ,,, ummm,, errr ,,
DAMN!

//

403 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:34:58pm

re: #395 sattv4u2

Where did the "legal system" enter the picture of Sal or my discussions with women about to have an abortion?

You said these women don't deserve abortions because they don't "agonize" enough over the process. By your standard. Right?

404 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:35:11pm
405 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:35:22pm

re: #322 sattv4u2

no ,, they want the gov't to do that. And as for Catholics for Free Choice, they want it done charitably

I am only willing to see abortions subsidized in the rare cases of raped minors who have to go to court to get permission for an abortion over their parents' objections because in such cases, the parents aren't likely to pay for it. And in many cases, incest is involved.

I and a friend ponied up the money to pay for such a procedure, where a 14 year old girl had been repeatedly raped by her drunken fundamentalist father, who then refused permission or funds from his jail cell, claiming that the pregnancy was God's righteous retributional judgment on 'their' sin.

It was the most humane charity I have ever engaged in. But what if I and my friend had not been there for her?

406 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:35:25pm

re: #385 Kaymad

So you're equating Tiller with Jesus? Tiller performed partial birth abortions. Not exactly up there with healing the sick.

Actually, if you had read the post, you would have seen that Salamantis was specifically suggesting that Jesus and Tiller were not alike, as a way of also drawing a distinction between Tiller and taxi drivers and hookers.

But I guess there's no need to read the actual comments when we're defending Jesus' honor.

407 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:35:29pm

re: #387 iceweasel

Maybe you think of a doctor who can perform the most intimate and important services to women as merely "a mechanic". I do not.

Why not? They perform a proscribed procedure. The result is not some emanation or somesuch. I have been operated on and I would accept nothing less than a good mechanic - don't give a rip about anything else about him/her. How is an abortion doctor different, pray tell.

408 brownmear  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:35:36pm

re: #400 sattv4u2
Nope, from now on we will have your tremendous intellect!

409 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:35:48pm

re: #398 Cato the Elder

Demanding that women "agonize" over abortions is like insisting that poor people be ashamed of taking charity.

Yes, because those feckless pregnant women are having way too much fun getting those abortions, and those poor people are just glorying in those food stamps.

410 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:36:27pm

re: #360 Erik The Red

I was my mom's "Sweet Sixteenth Birthday Present". 8 weeks premmie, in 1968. I am now 5'11 and 240 lbs. Thank God that my mom and dad never went down that road. Was it hard for them? Of course. Did they get through it? Yes.

I was born on a farm outside of Firebaugh to a 17 year old farmhand and given up for adoption...I was officially adopted in California at 12 years old..
That's a lot of Foster homes...God has shown me grace in this world..
There are 6 Billion people in this world..And quite frankly.. I don't give one fuck about any of their opinions.. Not one person on the face of this Earth...
It's hard to explain..But I always felt God showed me grace...

411 lobo91  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:36:28pm

re: #387 iceweasel

Maybe you think of a doctor who can perform the most intimate and important services to women as merely "a mechanic". I do not.

True. Mechanic is a bad analogy, given the reality of the procedure.

Butcher would be much more appropriate.

412 transient  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:36:33pm

re: #387 iceweasel

Maybe you think of a doctor who can perform the most intimate and important services to women as merely "a mechanic". I do not.

Cardiothoracic surgeon takes his BMW into the shop. Mechanic checks under the hood and tells the doc, "The engine needs work." The mechanic chats with the surgeon as he works. "We basically do the same thing, right? You diagnose and fix hearts, I fix engines. How come you earn ten times what I do?"

Surgeon says: "Try working on the engine with the motor running."

413 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:37:14pm

re: #396 albusteve

CHINKS!...your'e in Philly?...they hate me over there, but true to the core albusteve loves them nevertheless...my Philly gangster pals...Chinks is the very best in the city...you did good

albusteve ... yeah just on biz ... here is a song ..

Robin Trower ... Bridge of Sighs ...

414 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:37:35pm

re: #398 Cato the Elder

Demanding that women "agonize" over abortions is like insisting that poor people be ashamed of taking charity.

yup...good point, maybe people should review how they got their lives so fucked up

415 Last Mohican  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:38:05pm

re: #391 brownmear

No reason to check back anymore.

Guess you won't be needing that account then.

416 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:38:31pm

re: #401 Kaymad

So delivering a baby and ramming a pair of scissors into the base of its skull because the baby has downs syndrom, or mom has changed her mind, or whatever reason, is "the most intimate and important services to women"??

huh. I never looked at it that way.

Wow, you think abortion consists in giving birth to a baby and then "ramming a pair of scissors into the base of its skull because the baby has downs syndrom, or mom has changed her mind, or whatever reason"?

Put down the Army of God pamphlet.

417 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:38:47pm

re: #403 ShanghaiEd

You said these women don't deserve abortions because they don't "agonize" enough over the process. By your standard. Right?

I am F*CKING BEGGING you to show where I said any such thing!

418 notamolly  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:38:59pm

re: #333 placeholder

this isn't accurate. look at adoption statistics. many adoptive parents are looking for something very specific... a newborn caucasian baby. nobody is lining up to adopt developmentally challenged baby of any race. nobody is lining up to adopt black babies. nobody is lining up to foster kids who were born to single mothers and have massive developmental challenges...

your argument is not only incorrect - its morally toxic. most people advocating the type of abortion absolutism we're discussing would never even contemplate trying to foster or adopt kids coming out of these types of situations. its armchair moralism that has profound impact... life-altering impact on many people.

-PH

How exactly is it toxic to say there is a waiting list for infant adoptions?

419 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:39:05pm

re: #394 ArmyWife
What you said.
Someone should grab the tiller of this skiff and steer it back out of the deep water...

420 Desert Dog  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:39:08pm

re: #398 Cato the Elder

Demanding that women "agonize" over abortions is like insisting that poor people be ashamed of taking charity.

That is a pretty cold attitude, have you always been so cynical?

An abortion is the taking of a life, in pure biological and scientific terms, not some vague spiritual notion. I hope any women that gets pregnant takes it to term and gives it up if she does not want it. There are people waiting for a baby right now. Rationalize and try and explain away all you wish, once that sperm enters the egg and starts the process of life. The extact same process that brought you into this world. Sometimes, it does not make it, but most of the time, if you leave that process alone...you get a baby 9 months later.

421 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:39:33pm

re: #408 brownmear

Nope, from now on we will have your tremendous intellect!

See,,, I KNEW you couldn;'t stay away!!

You (lying sonofabitch) Rascal You!

422 brownmear  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:40:28pm

re: #415 Last Mohican
Nope, I don't want to talk about abortion and "nirthers" anymore. Have a good time talking about that s**t!!

423 CynicalConservative  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:40:30pm

re: #391 brownmear

I am glad to see that little green footballs is all about abortion and the "nirthers" 24 hours a day now.

No reason to check back anymore.

Geez. Buy a clue and look beyond the first couple of threads and comments. Things get focused and heated, so sorry it doesn't meet your discriminating tastes.

/Last sentence only.

424 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:40:31pm

re: #413 JacksonTn

albusteve ... yeah just on biz ... here is a song ..

Robin Trower ... Bridge of Sighs ...


I dig Trower...yup

425 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:40:36pm

re: #332 reine.de.tout

I would be willing to bet that there are at least some "other doctors" (quoting the words in your post, not 'scare' quotes) that don't perform this procedure because they find it abhorrent.

Sure. But I find allowing women to die or be permanently maimed because you find the procedure that will preserve their lives or health to be abhorrent to be morally abhorrent in itself. But that's just me.

I also find allowing women to die or be permanently maimed because you fear a fanatic's bullet to be cowardly.

426 lobo91  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:41:04pm

It's time for me to leave, before I say something that might cause me to lose my account.

427 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:41:05pm

re: #355 placeholder
Buddy, it's my experience. It's all I can go on. I can't tell you about the social workers or abortion doctors or escorts I know or women I've talked to who had an abortion and regretted it- or didn't.
Sure, there are kids born with lots of problems. And I know from experience that raising a child is a two person job. But who decides whether a fetus gets to live? How do you know what that fetus might have grown up into? A criminal, a junkie, a Beethoven or an Einstein- who knows?
Bill Clinton used to say that he wanted to make abortion safe, legal and rare. I'd agree with that but in my experience most abortion supporters seem far more concerned with the first two than the third.

428 Desert Dog  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:41:08pm

re: #416 iceweasel

Wow, you think abortion consists in giving birth to a baby and then "ramming a pair of scissors into the base of its skull because the baby has downs syndrom, or mom has changed her mind, or whatever reason"?

Put down the Army of God pamphlet.

That basically describes a late term abortion or partial birth abortion. What part don't you like? The letting the baby come out and then kill it? Or, is it the fact that some people consider that a type of murder?

429 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:41:42pm

Children waiting for adoption:
[Link: www.adoptuskids.org...]
[Link: www.adopting.com...]
415,000 results:
[Link: www.google.com...]

430 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:41:45pm

re: #409 iceweasel

Yes, because those feckless pregnant women are having way too much fun getting those abortions, and those poor people are just glorying in those food stamps.

you are confusing Tiller with M Jackson...you need some down time imo

431 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:41:50pm

re: #417 sattv4u2

I am F*CKING BEGGING you to show where I said any such thing!

#213, satt. You said inner-city people don't agonize enough over their abortions.

If you didn't mean that, what did you mean?

432 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:42:41pm

re: #418 notamolly

most people advocating the type of abortion absolutism we're discussing would never even contemplate trying to foster or adopt kids coming out of these types of situations.


And a couple who did just that, eleven times, were shot in FL during a home robbery a few weeks back. Six of their developmentally delayed adopted children were in the house with them when it happened. May they rest in peace... they certainly deserve it.

433 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:43:36pm

re: #337 Shug

NARAL

Nope; they're not about persuading women to have abortions; only about keeping the option open for those who wish to choose it for themselves.

Antiabortionists, otoh, want to close off the option, for everyone.

434 Erik The Red  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:43:37pm

I am going to impose my own timeout tonight. I will leave on this note:

I have never been party to an abortion and don't know anyone who has had one. I am not a good Catholic but believe in God with all my heart.

I just feel that abortion is WRONG. As wrong as stealing and as Wrong as murder is.

Good Night Lizards. Sleep tight.

435 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:43:49pm

re: #425 Salamantis

Sure. But I find allowing women to die or be permanently maimed because you find the procedure that will preserve their lives or health to be abhorrent to be morally abhorrent in itself. But that's just me.

I also find allowing women to die or be permanently maimed because you fear a fanatic's bullet to be cowardly.

maimed mothers and rape/incest victims is a very small % of abortions...I'll make the distinction if you can't

436 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:44:03pm

re: #428 Desert Dog

That basically describes a late term abortion or partial birth abortion. What part don't you like? The letting the baby come out and then kill it? Or, is it the fact that some people consider that a type of murder?

DD ... I believe "some" do not know exactly what is involved in a late-term abortion ... it is usually a two day procedure and it is not a fast procedure ... by "some" I am not talking about anyone in particular on this blog but I do think "many" people are not really aware of just what the procedure is all about ...

437 notamolly  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:44:31pm

re: #432 tradewind

And a couple who did just that, eleven times, were shot in FL during a home robbery a few weeks back. Six of their developmentally delayed adopted children were in the house with them when it happened. May they rest in peace... they certainly deserve it.

That would not be my quote. I asked placeholder to tell me what exactly was toxic about the fact that there is a waiting list for infant adoptions?

and I am done before my account is banned.

438 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:44:40pm

Poorer women pay:

The poorer women are, the more likely it is that, faced with unwanted pregnancy, they will provoke an abortion themselves or go to a person without medical training, increasing health risks and the risk of hospitalization due to complications. Availability of safe and above all affordable abortion will also have implications for the future financial situation of such women and/or their families and can therefore be considered part of the struggle against poverty.

Rumania provides a unique case study of the factors that influence the use of unsafe abortion: in 1966 legal abortion was restricted and the abortion-related maternal mortality rate increased sharply, ten times higher than the average for the rest of Europe; in 1989 abortion was again made available on request and the number of maternal deaths fell sharply. By contrast the Netherlands has the lowest reported abortion rate because of a non-restrictive abortion law within a comprehensive framework that includes universal sex education in schools and easily accessible family planning services and the provision of emergency contraception. Of the 29,266 abortions performed there in 1997, the complication rate for first trimester treatments was 0,3% with no resulting deaths whatsoever.[Link: www.womenonwaves.org...]

439 Desert Dog  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:45:31pm

re: #436 JacksonTn

DD ... I believe "some" do not know exactly what is involved in a late-term abortion ... it is usually a two day procedure and it is not a fast procedure ... by "some" I am not talking about anyone in particular on this blog but I do think "many" people are not really aware of just what the procedure is all about ...

I have very strong feelings about this subject, I am going to do what Erik did and leave. I hope you all have a nice evening. See you later on

440 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:45:52pm

one thing is for sure...Charles has an eye on this thread...I hope we don't embarrass him

441 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:46:08pm

re: #410 HoosierHoops

Hiya Hoops!

How are them Pacers looking this year?

442 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:46:27pm

re: #369 transient

OT, but can you recommend a translation of Xenophon's Anabasis that is neither too stilted nor overly simplified? Just readable, and reasonably accurate?

I started to read it online; great story, but painful translation.

W.H.D. Rouse is generally considered a fine translator.

There is a Penguin edition, but I know nothing about the translator.

Dakyns seems to be read a lot, and is available on Kindle, but again I know nothing about his work.

If you can spare the $15, go with Rouse.

443 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:46:56pm

Ok Everyone -

Dr. Tiller was killed by a "Pro-Life" Activist - Like DUH! The "PERP" deserves the Maximum Sentence/Penalty under the Law of the appropriate state. NO Problem There. Have LOTS of Problems with Dr. Tiller's Practice - YET - so long as the Law is as it is - He should NOT have been MURDERED. Take it from there.

-S-

444 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:47:09pm

re: #431 ShanghaiEd

#213, satt. You said inner-city people don't agonize enough over their abortions.

If you didn't mean that, what did you mean?

and from that you extrapolate these women don't deserve abortions

we're done! (because I NEVER ONCE said they didn't "deserve" one, but you attributed that to me!)

For the record, in response to Sal saying that they "agonize over" the decision, what I CLEARLY said was that many ,, no ,, MOST of those I encountered in the inner cities did NOt agonize over it. I NEVEr said they didn't "deserve" to have one

445 teleskiguy  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:47:19pm

"I've always found it fascinating how people act on thier beliefs. Pro-lifers murdering doctors. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! Pro-lifers murdering people. HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! I mean, it's irony on a base level but it's a hoot. You can get a hoot! It's a fucking hoot!"
-Bill Hicks

446 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:47:20pm

re: #340 Desert Dog

I'll risk the downdings and scorn from fellow lizards, but if you leave that "choice" alone, it becomes a little baby...My oldest was a preemie...my wife was only 24 weeks...He was tiny and fragile...today he is 6'2" and strong as an ox. Once that egg is fertilized, that is a beginnings of a life...to snuff it out breaks my heart.

There are many reasons women get an abortion, I know that. But it does not take away from the fact they are taking a life when they do that.

Yes, a fertilized egg is human, and it is living, but it is not a person. In fact, it isn't even a potential person, because that term implies the inevitability of the realization of potential in the natural order of things, and fully a third of pregnancies are miscarried - that is, spontaneously, naturally aborted.

No, a fertilized egg is a possible future person, and where the rights of a possible future person and the rights of the actual present person carrying it come into conflict, the rights of the latter must take moral precedence in any just and sane universe.

447 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:47:41pm

re: #433 Salamantis

Sorry, but I have personal knowledge of an employee whose teenaged daughter, when she consulted Planned Parenthood for a pregnancy test, was directed first to the abortion option, and pressured (unsuccessfully ) in that direction. Doesn't sound like an agenda PP should have, but there it was.

448 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:47:50pm

re: #440 albusteve

I have an image in my head of Charles sitting in front of a huge monitor in his living room with his feet up and a beer in one hand, a bag of chips in the other. Watching this thread.

449 placeholder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:48:07pm

re: #418 notamolly

How exactly is it toxic to say there is a waiting list for infant adoptions?

because it isn't true. there is no waiting list for quite a few types of adoptive babies. it would be accurate to say that there is a waiting list for a caucasian baby with healthy birth parents. unfortunately, this demo doesn't align one to one with a large segment of the population that seeks abortion. there is no happy adoptive home for a large percentage of aborted babies.

450 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:48:10pm

re: #433 Salamantis

Nope; they're not about persuading women to have abortions; only about keeping the option open for those who wish to choose it for themselves.

Antiabortionists, otoh, want to close off the option, for everyone.

That's why they shouldn't be called 'anti-abortion', but 'anti-choice'.

(IM politicised O)

451 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:48:27pm

Like it or not abortion has been a reality since prehistory. It will continue to be a reality, legal or not.

452 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:48:58pm

re: #446 Salamantis

where the rights of a possible future person and the rights of the actual present person carrying it come into conflict, the rights of the latter must take moral precedence in any just and sane universe.

Repeated for emphasis.

453 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:49:10pm

re: #447 tradewind

Sorry, but I have personal knowledge of an employee whose teenaged daughter, when she consulted Planned Parenthood for a pregnancy test, was directed first to the abortion option, and pressured (unsuccessfully ) in that direction. Doesn't sound like an agenda PP should have, but there it was.

follow the money...abortion is a huge moneymaker...deny that

454 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:49:51pm

re: #369 transient

re: #442 Cato the Elder

P.S. From Amazon, a comparison of the Rouse and Penguin versions:

Here is a passage from the first page that captures his nice, streamlined sense of pacing:

"But when Dareios died and Artaxerxes succeeded, Tissaphernes slandered Cyros to his brother and said he was plotting against him. The king believed him, and siezed Cyros to put him to death, but his mother begged him off and sent him back to his province. When Cyros got clear of this danger and disgrace, he determined never again to be in his brother's power, but to make himself king instead, if he could."

Now, here's a passage from the Rex Warner translation (Penguin), which takes nearly half again as long with the same ideas:

"But, after the death of Darius, when Artaxerxes was established on the throne, Tissaphernes maligned Cyrus to his brother and accused him of plotting against him. Artaxerxes believed the story and arrested Cyrus with the intention of putting him to death: but his mother by her entreaties secured his life and his recall to his province. Still, after the danger and disgrace from which he had escaped, Cyrus took measures to ensure that he should never again be in his brother's power; instead, if he could manage it, he would become king in his brother's place."

Definitely go for the Rouse.

455 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:50:33pm

re: #343 albusteve

it's not about protecting physical health...it's about convenience and people have a problem with that...it's a machine...a multi billion dollar industry...it's about creating victims for money...it's fucking sick

Not in the case of late term abortions, which were Dr. Tiller's specialty. Those were all about womens' lives and health.

And the 'industry' is created by some of the other things that many socons oppose; sex education and readily accessible contraceptives.

456 formercorpsman  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:50:34pm

I will admit my position up front, in that I would be considered pro-life. That being said, I accept this is a brutally tough subject, and not everything is black and white.

Seriously, and respectfully, does anyone see a contradiction in how we have applied the law in the case of someone like Scott Peterson where he was not only convicted of murdering his wife, but also of 2nd degree murder for the fetus?

I am asking the contrary opinions in earnest. I am not looking to argue.

457 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:50:46pm

re: #438 jaunte

jaunte -

OF COURSE THE POOR PAY - GENERALLY MORE. So long as they are IGNORANT. Fear Always, the Poor Person who is not... That is all.

-S-

458 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:50:47pm

re: #448 Racer X

I have an image in my head of Charles sitting in front of a huge monitor in his living room with his feet up and a beer in one hand, a bag of chips in the other. Watching this thread.

I'm bailing out...

459 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:50:49pm

Wow.

Just freaking wow.

460 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:51:45pm

re: #455 Salamantis

Not in the case of late term abortions, which were Dr. Tiller's specialty. Those were all about womens' lives and health.

And the 'industry' is created by some of the other things that many socons oppose; sex education and readily accessible contraceptives.

then I was wrong...I submit

461 transient  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:52:38pm

re: #442 Cato the Elder

Thanks. The Rouse translation was one of the ones I was looking at. The Dakyns is the stilted version I found online. The Penguin doesn't look too bad...I will have to read a few pages on the "look inside the book" feature.

462 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:52:39pm

re: #451 Killgore Trout
Along with murder, mayhem, pestilence, plague, famine, genocide and (in inverse order re harm done), adultery, theft, envy, gluttony,...
ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

463 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:53:15pm

re: #447 tradewind

Sorry, but I have personal knowledge of an employee whose teenaged daughter, when she consulted Planned Parenthood for a pregnancy test, was directed first to the abortion option, and pressured (unsuccessfully ) in that direction. Doesn't sound like an agenda PP should have, but there it was.

At the clinic where I escorted, the very first question was always "What do YOU want to do about this? Not anyone else; YOU?"

I must have heard it asked a thousand times. And if it seemed that the woman wasn't absolutely certain that an abortion WAS what she wanted to do, it was not performed.

464 teleskiguy  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:53:17pm

To be more serious though, the article was extremely well written and objective. I think George Tiller was a very brave man and Scott Roeder is a sick coward. If there is a heaven Dr. Tiller is there now. If there is a hell, it's fires await Scott Roeder.

465 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:53:19pm

There are three topics you're not "supposed to" discuss at a a cocktail party: sex, religion and politics. Abortion has all three wrapped up in a single topic.

466 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:53:24pm

re: #456 formercorpsman

I will admit my position up front, in that I would be considered pro-life. That being said, I accept this is a brutally tough subject, and not everything is black and white.

Seriously, and respectfully, does anyone see a contradiction in how we have applied the law in the case of someone like Scott Peterson where he was not only convicted of murdering his wife, but also of 2nd degree murder for the fetus?

I think (just guessing) in that case the judgment had to be that he had not only killed his wife (exisitng person) but also her unborn baby (potential person) against her will.

467 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:53:36pm

re: #453 albusteve

I wouldn't even try, since I agree that it is.
Creepy.

468 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:53:56pm

re: #443 Dr. Shalit

Ok Everyone -

Dr. Tiller was killed by a "Pro-Life" Activist - Like DUH! The "PERP" deserves the Maximum Sentence/Penalty under the Law of the appropriate state. NO Problem There. Have LOTS of Problems with Dr. Tiller's Practice - YET - so long as the Law is as it is - He should NOT have been MURDERED. Take it from there.

-S-

Don't think you'll get many arguments there, but there are those who would lionize the Dr., and perhaps even some, now either silent or since tossed to the bowels of Stinky hell, that would excuse the murderer.

In my lifetime I can think of nothing so heinously divisive as Roe vs Wade. What an awful ruling. Doesn't rise to Dred Scott, but close; it hangs over the land and poisons the water.

469 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:54:06pm

Queen's version of Runaway

470 JacksonTn  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:54:44pm

re: #458 albusteve

I'm bailing out...


[Video]

albusteve ... Good Night! ... me too ... see ya'll later ...

Taj Mahal ... Farther Down the Road ... just one step at a time ...

471 formercorpsman  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:54:52pm

re: #466 jaunte

Yes, I agree. But is will of the mother the threshold for what Constitutionally determines protection under the law?

472 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:54:55pm

re: #345 sattv4u2

Neither of us can claim that the "majority" leans one way or the other. For either of us to do so is disingenuous at best. You have your anecdotes, I have mine. You know aht you've seen/ heard, same with me

I escorted at this clinic for several years. I have thousands of such anecdotes.

How many do you have?

473 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:55:36pm

re: #456 formercorpsman

Throw the kit gloves away corpsman. You're a tough lizard. Argue your line.

474 CynicalConservative  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:56:00pm

re: #465 MandyManners

Well said.

Hope you and the kid are OK after today's stuff.

475 windhorse  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:56:17pm

has anyone else noticed "Roeder" and "Tiller"...

there's got to be some explanation for that... hang on... 1-202- say, does anyone have Barry's phone number?

476 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:56:25pm

At the beginning of the movie The 300 is a scene where Leonidas as a newborn is presented and inspected in some ceremony. Imperfect future warriors were tossed off the ledge. Thats not too far from where we are today actually.

477 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:56:34pm

re: #435 albusteve

maimed mothers and rape/incest victims is a very small % of abortions...I'll make the distinction if you can't

Steve: Why the rape/incest exception? Why should a baby have to die because his/her parents did something wrong? I've never understood the logic behind this "exception."

478 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:56:36pm

re: #425 Salamantis

Sure. But I find allowing women to die or be permanently maimed because you find the procedure that will preserve their lives or health to be abhorrent to be morally abhorrent in itself. But that's just me.

I also find allowing women to die or be permanently maimed because you fear a fanatic's bullet to be cowardly.

Well, not for the first time, you are saying it seems, that you find that my belief that abortion is an abhorrent practice is something that makes me morally abhorrent in your eyes.

I have made no judgement of you based on your position; but you feel compelled, time after time, to tell me how "morally abhorrent" I am.

We have nothing to say to each other.

479 savarulz  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:56:40pm

As a pro lifer I do not condone what Scottt Roeder did. He ILLEGALLY MURDERED. He has what he deserves coming.

480 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:56:43pm

re: #463 Salamantis

Funny how 'escort ' is synonmyous with other less than wholesome activity in the police/vice squad vernacular.
(Sorry I can't congratulate you for your volunteer work).

481 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:57:23pm

re: #266 abbyadams

Welcome, abbyadams! If you can read & follow the rules at the top of every thread, you'll be fine here!

482 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:57:25pm

countdown to somebody telling how they " took the blows" in 5...4...3...2...

483 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:57:38pm

then the poetry

484 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:57:45pm

re: #472 Salamantis

I escorted at this clinic for several years. I have thousands of such anecdotes.

How many do you have?

I was a driver for social service workers in inner city Boston for 4 years. I also have thousands

485 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:58:02pm

Sal, Cato etc...you are elder to me...you are smarter and your arguments are better than mine...I am here to learn first and foremost...I cannot match your intellect and don't pretend I can...nemaste

486 formercorpsman  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:58:37pm

re: #473 experiencedtraveller

I'm not arguing any line, I was putting the issue out there as it relates to the rights of an individual afforded them by the Constitution.

My posture is out of respect for what the requested precedent has always been regarding this topic.

487 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:58:53pm

re: #471 formercorpsman

Yes, I agree. But is will of the mother the threshold for what Constitutionally determines protection under the law?

That I don't know.

488 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 7:59:09pm

re: #444 sattv4u2

and from that you extrapolate these women don't deserve abortions

we're done! (because I NEVER ONCE said they didn't "deserve" one, but you attributed that to me!)

For the record, in response to Sal saying that they "agonize over" the decision, what I CLEARLY said was that many ,, no ,, MOST of those I encountered in the inner cities did NOt agonize over it. I NEVEr said they didn't "deserve" to have one

Sorry, I misinterpreted. Please tell me why the level of "agonizing" a woman does is relevant to the issue at all. And, why you get to judge that agony level via your intuition.

489 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:00:34pm

re: #371 The Shadow Do

Again, why do you want to project this heroic depiction on this man? Perhaps he was, but neither you nor I really know that.

I would no more lionize this guy than the man who works on my car. Both mechanics. In fact, a better analogy might be a construction contractor who does high work - he gets paid better than the next guy who does not, but that is just my opinion of course.

I have no evidence this guy was on some sort of altruistic mission, and neither do you.

Was your auto mechanic shot to death in his church because he dared to repair your car? And how many high steel workers are shot to death because they dare to walk the beams?

490 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:00:48pm

re: #475 windhorse

has anyone else noticed "Roeder" and "Tiller"...

I had not thought of that. But there sure is mud flying around in here.

491 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:00:57pm

re: #472 Salamantis

re: #484 sattv4u2

I was a driver for social service workers in inner city Boston for 4 years. I also have thousands

Allow me to expand on that somewhat to clarify. Because most of the social workers were female, and because most of the places they had to go into were less than safe, it was my job to not only drive them but to be a presence as they interviewed, counseled and took care of the recipients needs. Invariably many of them invovled abortion issues

492 Ian MacGregor  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:01:05pm

Thanos 170:

Tiller performed 4,800 abortions from 98 forward, of those 2000 were non viable fetus's. Many were referrals from law enforcement agencies from other states with rape and incest cases. The others were viable but with serious disabilities that would cause lifetimes of pain.

My daughter has profound autism. She is twelve and is non-verbal. Nor has she been able to master any other methods of communication. She cannot cross a street by herself, find her way home, nor recognize many common dangers.

Sounds like she would have been a good candidate for abortion. However she is a very happy girl, well young lady now. Who brings us boundless joy. We went through very bad times when she seemed to be nothing but tooth and claw. Efforts to console her meant withstanding terrificly hard bites on your shoulder and bloody arms from her scratching. Many parents have of autistic children have gone through this, and nearly all will tell you it was worth every second.

Life is precious, even for people who have serious disabilities. It is precious for the child with CP who will never be able to get out his wheel chair by himself. Once you have a "special" child you begin to meet people which children having a vast array of disabilities. I've never met one who would have been better off dead.

Taking of a life is wrong. Dr Tiller's life was also precious. No one had the right to take it. Nobody is completely bad or good. Dr Tiller committed heinous acts. Dr. Tiller
showed compassion. His acts are not to be celebrated nor is his death.

493 albusteve  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:01:25pm

re: #470 JacksonTn

albusteve ... Good Night! ... me too ... see ya'll later ...

Taj Mahal ... Farther Down the Road ... just one step at a time ...


listen to Taj...can't hurt

494 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:01:27pm

Its all about the law folks; abortion is legal; if you don't like that fact, work to change the law, that's the contract we all sign up for as Americans. I understand this is an emotional for some. As for me, I'll stick to the law.

495 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:02:00pm

re: #439 Desert Dog

I have very strong feelings about this subject, I am going to do what Erik did and leave. I hope you all have a nice evening. See you later on

DD I think I shall do the same thing you, Erik and ArmyWife have done.
Enough for tonight . . .

496 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:02:02pm

Zooborns, take us away...

497 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:02:27pm

re: #381 tradewind

Come on... how can you argue with that resume?

It was eminently relevant to the post in question.

498 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:03:34pm

re: #489 Salamantis

Was your auto mechanic shot to death in his church because he dared to repair your car? And how many high steel workers are shot to death because they dare to walk the beams?

Being shot to death is a measure of heroism? Lots of gunshot victims, not many heros I think. Lots of heros in Chicago these days for example...

499 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:04:33pm

re: #384 Shug

so Tiller is like Jesus Christ now?

nite all

There has to be some corollary to Godwin's Law, just like you're out when you compare somebody to Hitler, you're out when you compare somebody to Jesus. Like when Pat Buchanan compared Demjanjuk to Jesus.

500 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:04:38pm

re: #382 albusteve

I don't know the guy...what's he got to do with abortion?

You were speaking of knowing targets. Jesus was one. So was Dr. Tiller. And both of them persevered until their deaths and did not allow their knowledge of the dangers to dissuade them.

501 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:04:43pm

re: #441 Racer X

Hiya Hoops!

How are them Pacers looking this year?

I am completely conflicted about the Pacers...We are rebuilding...And I love Larry Bird..But what a deep hole they are in...From 3am strip club shoot outs to rebuilding with Athletic talent...
All we are missing is a great point guard...A shooting guard like Reggie..A monster in the paint that will kick your ass.. A Power forward that can score from anywhere..A scoring small forward..A rotation...Other than that we are good..We have a great wingman in Danny Granger...
Weee.Should be a great year...Dripping...
*wink*

502 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:04:45pm

re: #488 ShanghaiEd

tell me why the level of "agonizing" a woman does is relevant to the issue at all

It was in context to what Sal and I were discussing

why you get to judge that agony level via your intuition.

Please. We all 'judge" a persons agony level, joy level, pain level from our observations coupled with our own experiences. If you want to tell me you don't or never have, so be it
Also, see # 491

503 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:04:46pm

re: #463 Salamantis

I must have heard it asked a thousand times. And if it seemed that the woman wasn't absolutely certain that an abortion WAS what she wanted to do, it was not performed.

Curious here. How do you train someone to glean inner intentions from strangers in an interview. That would be a very inexact science. Some people are easy to read. Others put up all sorts of roadblocks. I understand the point of the questioning, I just am a bit skeptical that the standard for the eventual go-no go decision was very consistent. What would you estimate would be the % of those who are turned away.

504 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:05:00pm

re: #401 Kaymad

"The story says he would often infect the heart with A fatal substance, and then, later (some times perhaps the next day), finish.

Also occasionally find adoptive parents for his charges.

505 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:05:50pm

re: #499 Alouette

There has to be some corollary to Godwin's Law, just like you're out when you compare somebody to Hitler, you're out when you compare somebody to Jesus. Like when Pat Buchanan compared Demjanjuk to Jesus.

what if you compare Hitler to Jesus?

The dreaded and rarely seen Double Godwin infraction

506 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:06:44pm

And on that note, Good Night, Lizardom!

507 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:06:49pm

re: #501 HoosierHoops

I am completely conflicted about the Pacers...We are rebuilding...And I love Larry Bird..But what a deep hole they are in...From 3am strip club shoot outs to rebuilding with Athletic talent...
All we are missing is a great point guard...A shooting guard like Reggie..A monster in the paint that will kick your ass.. A Power forward that can score from anywhere..A scoring small forward..A rotation...Other than that we are good..We have a great wingman in Danny Granger...
Weee.Should be a great year...Dripping...
*wink*

WHY THE HELL CAN INDIANA NOT COME UP WITH A COMPETITIVE PRO B-BALL TEAM!

that is all

508 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:06:49pm

re: #385 Kaymad

So you're equating Tiller with Jesus? Tiller performed partial birth abortions. Not exactly up there with healing the sick.

Actually, he didn't perform partial birth abortions, which are illegal in the state of Kansas. But thousands of the abortions he did perform saved the lives of the women upon whom he performed them.

509 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:07:47pm

re: #492 Ian MacGregor

Sounds like she would have been a good candidate for abortion.

Let's be honest: Anyone ever born is a good candidate for abortion. That's the law right now.

I also lean pro life and applaud your choice and your perseverance, however it's a personal choice that you and your family made. There are those on both sides of this debate wanting to take that choice from other individuals by force of law.

I'm for the family deciding what to do -- nobody else has rights to force that choice either way upon them.

510 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:08:14pm

re: #390 reine.de.tout

The point has been made that there are only 3 doctors in the country who perform these "late-term" abortions because other doctors decline to perform this procedure out of some fear for their lives.

I think it's perfectly appropriate point out that perhaps, just perhaps, there are only 3 doctors who perform this procedure because many other doctors find the procedure abhorrent, not because they fear for their lives.

I'm sure that both reasons have their part to play.

511 Greengolem64  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:08:14pm

re: #284 placeholder

all depends on how you define murder doesn't it?

Unless I'm mistaken...both practices are 'legal' under US law...so, both have been defined...

~49 Million abortions to 1171 death sentence completions...is there really even a comparison?

This becomes an area where morality and legality begin to diverge...

512 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:08:17pm

re: #503 Mich-again

Not so hard... you just have to have one of those degrees in interpreting hanging chads...

513 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:08:21pm

re: #468 The Shadow Do

Don't think you'll get many arguments there, but there are those who would lionize the Dr., and perhaps even some, now either silent or since tossed to the bowels of Stinky hell, that would excuse the murderer.

In my lifetime I can think of nothing so heinously divisive as Roe vs Wade. What an awful ruling. Doesn't rise to Dred Scott, but close; it hangs over the land and poisons the water.

Shadow Do -

ROE v. WADE is NOT as bad as it sounds. In fact, like Christianity, it might YET to be tried.
R v W - Allows unlimited Abortions in the first "Trimester" - 3 Months for all 'ya 'all in "Rio Linda."
State Regulation in the Second Trimester - Months 3-6.
A BAN on Abortive Procedures - Months 6-9 - EXCEPT to save the PHYSICAL LIFE of the Mother.
A return to the "Original Intention/Interperetation" of ROE v. WADE would be a VAST IMPROVEMENT.
Discussion? Anyone?

-S-

514 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:10:23pm

re: #513 Dr. Shalit

Shadow Do -

ROE v. WADE is NOT as bad as it sounds. In fact, like Christianity, it might YET to be tried.
R v W - Allows unlimited Abortions in the first "Trimester" - 3 Months for all 'ya 'all in "Rio Linda."
State Regulation in the Second Trimester - Months 3-6.
A BAN on Abortive Procedures - Months 6-9 - EXCEPT to save the PHYSICAL LIFE of the Mother.
A return to the "Original Intention/Interperetation" of ROE v. WADE would be a VAST IMPROVEMENT.
Discussion? Anyone?

-S-

Thanks for that. Provides a lot of clarity.

515 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:13:03pm

re: #401 Kaymad

So delivering a baby and ramming a pair of scissors into the base of its skull because the baby has downs syndrom, or mom has changed her mind, or whatever reason, is "the most intimate and important services to women"??

huh. I never looked at it that way.

What about saving her life or health when she is in danger of a heart attack or stroke due to diabetic complications? Or would you rather that she die, or go blind, or suffer permanent paralysis or a persistent vegetative state (coma), or become shackled to kidney dialysis machines for the rest of her life due to comprehensive renal failure?

516 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:13:35pm

re: #507 The Shadow Do

WHY THE HELL CAN INDIANA NOT COME UP WITH A COMPETITIVE PRO B-BALL TEAM!

that is all

Look at Yoa...7'6" and a monster in the hole..Breaks his feet more times than I pee...To put to together 12 world class athletes that survive the season is very rare..Look at Kobe..He has over a 1000 games on his knees..The end for most players..He kicked everybodies ass on the floor...These aren't guys that stand in the out field all day or play in 5 second plays..They play full speed all the time..Destroys the body...

517 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:13:48pm

re: #476 Mich-again

At the beginning of the movie The 300 is a scene where Leonidas as a newborn is presented and inspected in some ceremony. Imperfect future warriors were tossed off the ledge. Thats not too far from where we are today actually.

And then there was that hunchback who somehow survived the cull, who showed why he should have been killed in the first place.

518 transient  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:14:04pm

Night all. Have fun storming the castle.

Thanks again, Cato.

519 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:14:28pm

re: #502 sattv4u2

tell me why the level of "agonizing" a woman does is relevant to the issue at all

It was in context to what Sal and I were discussing

why you get to judge that agony level via your intuition.

Please. We all 'judge" a persons agony level, joy level, pain level from our observations coupled with our own experiences. If you want to tell me you don't or never have, so be it
Also, see # 491

Of course, I "judge" people based on my observations of them. But I try not to use my observations and intuition as an excuse for telling them how they should live their lives, or arguing for a specific public policy. I don't know what anybody's going through, internally, and nobody knows about me. Only God knows that. I ain't God. By a long shot.

520 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:15:16pm

re: #407 The Shadow Do

Why not? They perform a proscribed procedure. The result is not some emanation or somesuch. I have been operated on and I would accept nothing less than a good mechanic - don't give a rip about anything else about him/her. How is an abortion doctor different, pray tell.

They don't sometimes get shot for properly performing their services.

521 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:15:34pm

re: #513 Dr. Shalit

One thing I have never understood about law is how they can be chipped away by layers of interpretations until they mean something completely different than what was originally written into law.

If math and science relied on opinions we'd still be hunters and gatherers.

522 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:16:05pm

re: #517 Alouette

And then there was that hunchback who somehow survived the cull, who showed why he should have been killed in the first place.

Ha! I intentionally left that part out.

523 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:16:17pm

re: #515 Salamantis

What about saving her life or health when she is in danger of a heart attack or stroke due to diabetic complications?

if these patients are that unstable, why are they undergoing a complex medical procedure in a clinic and not in a hospital with invasive monitoring and readily available intensive care ?

a: they are not unstable
b: their doctor took a chance

524 legalpad  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:16:18pm

re: #513 Dr. Shalit

Shadow Do -

ROE v. WADE is NOT as bad as it sounds. In fact, like Christianity, it might YET to be tried.
R v W - Allows unlimited Abortions in the first "Trimester" - 3 Months for all 'ya 'all in "Rio Linda."
State Regulation in the Second Trimester - Months 3-6.
A BAN on Abortive Procedures - Months 6-9 - EXCEPT to save the PHYSICAL LIFE of the Mother.
A return to the "Original Intention/Interperetation" of ROE v. WADE would be a VAST IMPROVEMENT.
Discussion? Anyone?

-S-

Sounds workable. What happened to it?

525 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:16:42pm

re: #514 The Shadow Do

Shadow Do -

I was in Law School when Roe/Wade came down - what I said was what we thought the SCOTUS meant back then. More or less it gave our Females a 3 month window - "to have - or not to have" - beyond that an assumption that a child would be born absent a PHYSICAL problem with the Mother Giving Birth.
If this is a restatement of what I said above - so be it.

-S-

526 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:17:34pm

re: #411 lobo91

True. Mechanic is a bad analogy, given the reality of the procedure.

Butcher would be much more appropriate.

Try lifesaver, in the case of Dr. Tiller. And highly talented and knowledgeable physician. Butchers are what women would once again have to resort to if abortions ever became illegal again.

527 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:17:54pm

re: #513 Dr. Shalit


A return to the "Original Intention/Interperetation" of ROE v. WADE would be a VAST IMPROVEMENT.
Discussion? Anyone?

-S-

Dr. S., what do you mean by "original intention/interpretation"? Whose intention? Whose interpretation? What changed?

528 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:18:14pm

re: #521 Mich-again

Mich-again -

"YOU - BETCHA!" - That is all.

-S-

529 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:19:02pm

re: #523 Shug

if these patients are that unstable, why are they undergoing a complex medical procedure in a clinic and not in a hospital with invasive monitoring and readily available intensive care ?

a: they are not unstable
b: their doctor took a chance

Because the risk happens during delivery or c section. That's when the blood pressure in women with pregnancyy-induced diabetes dangerously skyrockets, and they risk organ shutdown.

530 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:19:15pm

re: #527 ShanghaiEd

ShanghaiEd -

Please See My #525. Thanks.

-S-

531 formercorpsman  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:19:24pm

For the record, Scott Roeder is a murderer.

Totally the antithesis of that which he claimed to uphold. He placed a burden on everyone who is not part of the lunatic fringe of the pro-life opinion.

532 Wendya  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:19:30pm

re: #398 Cato the Elder

Demanding that women "agonize" over abortions is like insisting that poor people be ashamed of taking charity.

In a culture of personal responsibility and integrity, they would.

533 formercorpsman  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:20:06pm

Goodnight.

534 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:20:28pm

re: #516 HoosierHoops

Look at Yoa...7'6" and a monster in the hole..Breaks his feet more times than I pee...To put to together 12 world class athletes that survive the season is very rare..Look at Kobe..He has over a 1000 games on his knees..The end for most players..He kicked everybodies ass on the floor...These aren't guys that stand in the out field all day or play in 5 second plays..They play full speed all the time..Destroys the body...

With McGrady hurting all the time, and Yao done (for his career I'm pretty sure) I do agree the game is brutal and there needs to be a lot of luck in the crap/ouch department to win. But Indiana? Has anyone with serious talent been hurt lately, or are they just determined to be not very good in putting together personnel?

I'm a Mavs fan by the way, but I do feel bad for Yao. It's a shame really. A loss to the game.

535 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:21:20pm

re: #420 Desert Dog

That is a pretty cold attitude, have you always been so cynical?

An abortion is the taking of a life, in pure biological and scientific terms, not some vague spiritual notion. I hope any women that gets pregnant takes it to term and gives it up if she does not want it. There are people waiting for a baby right now. Rationalize and try and explain away all you wish, once that sperm enters the egg and starts the process of life. The extact same process that brought you into this world. Sometimes, it does not make it, but most of the time, if you leave that process alone...you get a baby 9 months later.

See my #446.

536 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:21:24pm

re: #520 Salamantis

They don't sometimes get shot for properly performing their services.

Point being?

537 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:23:27pm

re: #525 Dr. Shalit

Shadow Do -

I was in Law School when Roe/Wade came down - what I said was what we thought the SCOTUS meant back then. More or less it gave our Females a 3 month window - "to have - or not to have" - beyond that an assumption that a child would be born absent a PHYSICAL problem with the Mother Giving Birth.
If this is a restatement of what I said above - so be it.

-S-

No, I'm fairly contemperaneous with you and this is how it was understood then. Not so now methinks.

538 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:23:29pm

re: #534 The Shadow Do

With McGrady hurting all the time, and Yao done (for his career I'm pretty sure) I do agree the game is brutal and there needs to be a lot of luck in the crap/ouch department to win. But Indiana? Has anyone with serious talent been hurt lately, or are they just determined to be not very good in putting together personnel?

I'm a Mavs fan by the way, but I do feel bad for Yao. It's a shame really. A loss to the game.

I hear ya ! Indiana has gone young and Athletic,,,I'm impressed with the new direction...We need 2 superstars

539 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:23:48pm

re: #427 Jim in Virginia

Buddy, it's my experience. It's all I can go on. I can't tell you about the social workers or abortion doctors or escorts I know or women I've talked to who had an abortion and regretted it- or didn't.
Sure, there are kids born with lots of problems. And I know from experience that raising a child is a two person job. But who decides whether a fetus gets to live? How do you know what that fetus might have grown up into? A criminal, a junkie, a Beethoven or an Einstein- who knows?
Bill Clinton used to say that he wanted to make abortion safe, legal and rare. I'd agree with that but in my experience most abortion supporters seem far more concerned with the first two than the third.

Yep the famous answer:

What if the fetus would have been Einstein?

Answer: What if the fetus would have been Hitler?

540 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:24:30pm

re: #529 Salamantis

Because the risk happens during delivery or c section. That's when the blood pressure in women with pregnancyy-induced diabetes dangerously skyrockets, and they risk organ shutdown.

so a woman so unstable she can't have an induction. so unstable she needs a lifesaving emergent d and e, can have it in a medical office?


A: they are not unstable
B: their doctor is taking chances.

541 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:25:05pm

re: #536 The Shadow Do

Point being?

That IS the point; auto mechanics don't risk getting shot just for properly performing their jobs, like abortion doctors do!

D'oh!

542 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:25:16pm

OH MY GOD!!!

Revealed: the secret evidence of global warming Bush tried to hide


Photos from US spy satellites declassified by the Obama White House provide the first graphic images of how the polar ice sheets are retreating in the summer. The effects on the world's weather, environments and wildlife could be devastating.

Graphic images that reveal the devastating impact of global warming in the Arctic have been released by the US military. The photographs, taken by spy satellites over the past decade, confirm that in recent years vast areas in high latitudes have lost their ice cover in summer months.

The pictures, kept secret by Washington during the presidency of George W Bush, were declassified by the White House last week. President Barack Obama is currently trying to galvanise Congress and the American public to take action to halt catastrophic climate change caused by rising levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

One particularly striking set of images - selected from the 1,000 photographs released - includes views of the Alaskan port of Barrow. One, taken in July 2006, shows sea ice still nestling close to the shore. A second image shows that by the following July the coastal waters were entirely ice-free.

The photographs demonstrate starkly how global warming is changing the Arctic. More than a million square kilometres of sea ice - a record loss - were missing in the summer of 2007 compared with the previous year.

543 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:25:20pm

re: #531 formercorpsman

For the record, Scott Roeder is a murderer.

Totally the antithesis of that which he claimed to uphold.

True that he is a murderer. But he was living up to his faith, however twisted it might be. Saying that he was the antithesis of that which he claimed to uphold is the "no true Scotsman" argument.

544 CynicalConservative  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:25:41pm

Such a divisive conversation. To each their own. That is all.

545 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:26:16pm

re: #538 HoosierHoops

I hear ya ! Indiana has gone young and Athletic,,,I'm impressed with the new direction...We need 2 superstars

No prob! Now where is that Genie lamp I wonder...

546 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:26:16pm

re: #539 Salamantis

Yep the famous answer:

What if the fetus would have been Einstein?

Answer: What if the fetus would have been Hitler?

I believe he already said as much in his post. Take a look again.

547 Wendya  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:26:19pm

re: #446 Salamantis

Yes, a fertilized egg is human, and it is living, but it is not a person. In fact, it isn't even a potential person, because that term implies the inevitability of the realization of potential in the natural order of things, and fully a third of pregnancies are miscarried - that is, spontaneously, naturally aborted.

No, a fertilized egg is a possible future person, and where the rights of a possible future person and the rights of the actual present person carrying it come into conflict, the rights of the latter must take moral precedence in any just and sane universe.

I don't consider abortion to be a moral stance. It's the law of the land and in some cases, I accept the necessity but I will never consider a woman aborting for any reason other than a life saving measure to have made a moral decision. This whole culture of sex without responsibility is bullshit.

548 Randall Gross  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:26:51pm

BDSM with a Guitar (safe for work)

549 KansasMom  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:27:02pm

re: #540 Shug

so a woman so unstable she can't have an induction. so unstable she needs a lifesaving emergent d and e, can have it in a medical office?


A: they are not unstable
B: their doctor is taking chances.

C: Hospital is not available because of the nature of the procedure.

550 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:27:16pm

re: #95 yochanan

tiller was a evil man it just isn't man's job to do the punishment
sadly there are times when abortion is the lesser of two evils for example when the womans life is endangered or if she was raped but I have a major problem with abortion as birth control and the way that the left treats it almost like it was getting your toe nails clipped or your hair cut.

The stats on this post are very telling. 4 updings, 4 downdings (Full Disclosure: one of the updings is mine.) The lizard army is really split when it comes to abortion. Thankfully, the major posters all understand that the murder of Tiller was a great, entirely unjustifiable evil.

551 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:27:47pm

re: #540 Shug

so a woman so unstable she can't have an induction. so unstable she needs a lifesaving emergent d and e, can have it in a medical office?

A: they are not unstable
B: their doctor is taking chances.

And that is one of many kinds of conditions. Conditions that many doctors are unwilling to address, because of moral or personal safety concerns. So they refer them to those who WILL do what needs to be done, and furthermore possess the experience-gounded expertise to be able to do it well.

552 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:27:54pm

re: #541 Salamantis

That IS the point; auto mechanics don't risk getting shot just for properly performing their jobs, like abortion doctors do!

D'oh!

Oh, abortion doctors are just like US Marines. I had no idea. Heros all.
/no doubt

553 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:28:00pm

re: #537 The Shadow Do

Shadow Do -

"... ROE v. WADE - BE ORIGINALIST - as to the case - It is a Vast Improvement.
That is all.

-S-

554 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:28:43pm

re: #540 Shug

so a woman so unstable she can't have an induction. so unstable she needs a lifesaving emergent d and e, can have it in a medical office?

A: they are not unstable
B: their doctor is taking chances.

Shug: And you can make this long-distance diagnosis of these unknown women authoritatively, without even having a video to reference? You're leagues ahead of Bill Frist.
/

555 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:28:52pm

re: #548 Thanos

Kind of sounds like a didgeridoo.

556 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:29:01pm

re: #544 CynicalConservative

Such a divisive conversation. To each their own. That is all.

Unless I am paying for 'your own.' Then it becomes 'my own.'

557 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:29:43pm

re: #428 Desert Dog

That basically describes a late term abortion or partial birth abortion. What part don't you like? The letting the baby come out and then kill it? Or, is it the fact that some people consider that a type of murder?


There are many kinds of late term abortion procedures besides partial birth, which is, btw, illegal in Kansas, and was not employed by Dr. Tiller.

558 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:30:20pm

re: #552 The Shadow Do

Oh, abortion doctors are just like US Marines. I had no idea. Heros all.
/no doubt

And they both save lives, too.

559 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:30:29pm

re: #545 The Shadow Do

No prob! Now where is that Genie lamp I wonder...

Found it!

560 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:31:12pm

re: #556 experiencedtraveller

Unless I am paying for 'your own.' Then it becomes 'my own.'

So for you, the abortion issue boils down to cold hard cash?

561 jaunte  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:31:16pm

re: #547 Wendya

This whole culture of sex without responsibility is bullshit.

The social problem can be encapsulated in the contrast between the words slut, and stud. Who is the irresponsible one, and who pays?

562 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:31:33pm

The new #1 party College this year is Penn. State...
Surprising...

563 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:31:58pm

re: #432 tradewind

And a couple who did just that, eleven times, were shot in FL during a home robbery a few weeks back. Six of their developmentally delayed adopted children were in the house with them when it happened. May they rest in peace... they certainly deserve it.

This happened in Beulah, just a few miles northwest of me. It has emotionally shattered our community.

564 CynicalConservative  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:32:08pm

re: #556 experiencedtraveller

Unless I am paying for 'your own.' Then it becomes 'my own.'

To each their own, especially financially. Liberal/Socialism share the wealth, equal pain sucks. I ask for and expect nothing.

565 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:32:34pm

You can try the best you can.. Radiohead, Optimistic.

566 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:32:45pm

re: #554 ShanghaiEd

Shug: And you can make this long-distance diagnosis of these unknown women authoritatively, without even having a video to reference? You're leagues ahead of Bill Frist.
/

well Mr Ed, as an MD board certified in a branch of critical care medicine I think I am qualified to say that allegedly unstable patients have no business having complex procedures done in an office setting.

if they are that unstable, then they should have their procedure done in the Hospital.

if they are so unstable they cannot tolerate induction of labor or a c-s, they why are they undergoing a complex procedure in a clinic setting?
Something doesn't jibe here

567 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:33:47pm

re: #560 ShanghaiEd

So for you, the abortion issue boils down to cold hard cash?

Ed - for some of us it isn't the cash, so much as it is the fact that if what I pay in tax dollars is used to fund an abortion, then I have become party to what I sincerely believe to be an immoral act.

568 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:34:02pm

re: #558 Salamantis

And they both save lives, too.

OK then, abortion saves lives. I concede.

Time to back away from this conversation, it really is pretty pointless. Murder bad for sure. The rest will not be resolved in my lifetime.

Anybody read any good books lately?

569 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:34:44pm

re: #559 Racer X

Found it!

Hoosier! Looky here!

570 Greengolem64  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:35:23pm

re: #568 The Shadow Do

OK then, abortion saves lives. I concede.

Time to back away from this conversation, it really is pretty pointless. Murder bad for sure. The rest will not be resolved in my lifetime.

Anybody read any good books lately?

"The Audacity of Hope???"

Sorry, couldn't resist... :)

/S

571 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:35:45pm

re: #562 HoosierHoops

The new #1 party College this year is Penn. State...
Surprising...

Not Ball State?

572 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:36:04pm

re: #435 albusteve

maimed mothers and rape/incest victims is a very small % of abortions...I'll make the distinction if you can't

But a larger percentage, the later in the term the abortion happens, because many dire medical conditions, for woman or fetus, are undiagnosable until later in pregnancy, or only begin then, and many minors who have been victims of rape or incest have a hard time making it to authorities, and more time is taken getting court permission for the procedure over parental objections, and finding those willing to pay for it when their parents are not.

573 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:36:13pm

I was just reading defenseman's blog, that Richard L. Kent character is one whacked out dude.

574 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:36:58pm

re: #566 Shug

well Mr Ed, as an MD board certified in a branch of critical care medicine I think I am qualified to say that allegedly unstable patients have no business having complex procedures done in an office setting.

if they are that unstable, then they should have their procedure done in the Hospital.

if they are so unstable they cannot tolerate induction of labor or a c-s, they why are they undergoing a complex procedure in a clinic setting?
Something doesn't jibe here

And if there's no physician at the hospital who will do the procedure, because he/she doesn't want to put his his/her life at risk of being shot in church, then the choices of where to take the woman are...what, and what?

I'm no MD, but that seems a pretty straightforward situation to me. What am I missing?

575 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:37:04pm

re: #568 The Shadow Do

OK then, abortion saves lives. I concede.

Time to back away from this conversation, it really is pretty pointless. Murder bad for sure. The rest will not be resolved in my lifetime.

Anybody read any good books lately?

This conversation among folks here isn't going to change any minds here; but perhaps may persuade someone who is reading this blog to make a decision one way or the other based on what they've read. It's what keeps me going.

576 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:37:12pm

re: #570 Greengolem64

"The Audacity of Hope???"

Sorry, couldn't resist... :)

/S

*growl*

577 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:37:47pm

re: #560 ShanghaiEd

I know that you know better. You updinged me here. Regards.

578 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:38:57pm

re: #480 tradewind

That was a snarky attack that Sal does not deserve. downding.

579 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:39:44pm

re: #567 reine.de.tout

Ed - for some of us it isn't the cash, so much as it is the fact that if what I pay in tax dollars is used to fund an abortion, then I have become party to what I sincerely believe to be an immoral act.

Reine: That's a very valid point. How would it apply to a sincere pacifist who does not want his/her taxes to fund a war that he/she considers not only immoral, but illegal?

580 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:40:10pm

re: #453 albusteve

follow the money...abortion is a huge moneymaker...deny that

Antiabortion has sure been a big moneymaker for the major players.

581 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:40:13pm

re: #566 Shug

if they are so unstable they cannot tolerate induction of labor or a c-s, they why are they undergoing a complex procedure in a clinic setting?
Something doesn't jibe here

I imagine you'll get the same rationalizing you see that whenever an Iranian airliner crashes. That its the fault of the US trade embargo on the sale of airplane parts to Iran. In other words, the doctors are risking their patients' health at clinics because the bona-fide hospitals won't let them perform the procedure there.

582 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:41:26pm

re: #579 ShanghaiEd

Reine: That's a very valid point. How would it apply to a sincere pacifist who does not want his/her taxes to fund a war that he/she considers not only immoral, but illegal?

Well, I don't know.
Fact is, I cannot and will not withhold any portion of my taxes.
So I will be paying for a procedure that I believe is immoral.
But I don't have to like it.

583 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:41:38pm

re: #577 experiencedtraveller

I know that you know better. You updinged me here. Regards.

Sorry, ET. My memory is poor, and I didn't automatically connect the two posts. Hope your evening is a good one.

584 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:41:39pm

re: #560 ShanghaiEd

So for you, the abortion issue boils down to cold hard cash?

No, but it does boil down to the fact that I don't want to be forced to pay for an act that I intensely disapprove of. The only expect being the raped minor exception proposed by Sal earlier.

585 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:42:10pm

re: #574 ShanghaiEd

And if there's no physician at the hospital who will do the procedure, because he/she doesn't want to put his his/her life at risk of being shot in church, then the choices of where to take the woman are...what, and what?

I'm no MD, but that seems a pretty straightforward situation to me. What am I missing?


then they aren't that unstable and their procedure wasn't really so Life saving. that is my point.

Tiller should have been able to do his thing in a hospital when it was truly indicated. In my mind, the case that is truly saving the life of the mother is the one that ought to be done in a hospital setting. Otherwise, it probably wasn't completely medically indicated.

BTW: I believe in England ,France, netherlands, etc etc somehow they are able to not do these beyong 22-23 weeks and the women manage to stay alive, without these "heros" doing late term ab's. How peculiar

586 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:43:22pm

re: #575 reine.de.tout

This conversation among folks here isn't going to change any minds here; but perhaps may persuade someone who is reading this blog to make a decision one way or the other based on what they've read. It's what keeps me going.

I understand, and for that reason only I will relate a personal story. My wife and I elected an abortion many years ago shortly after the birth of my second daughter (totally planned, the result of a vas reversal). It all seemed to make sense then what with family planning and affordability and such.

I can tell you that the thought of that child we did not have is in my, and probably her, thoughts daily.

Abortion is bad in my book with health exceptions to the contrary of course.

There is no do-over.

587 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:44:28pm

re: #584 Dark_Falcon

No, but it does boil down to the fact that I don't want to be forced to pay for an act that I intensely disapprove of. The only exception being the raped minor exception proposed by Sal earlier.

PIMF

588 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:45:07pm

re: #571 The Shadow Do

Not Ball State?

There is this law in Indiana that you can't drive thru Muncie without buying a Ball U tee-Shirt...Or as we call it..Testicle Tech...
/Penn State..Number1 party school in the United States.
Takes dedication

589 Wendya  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:45:17pm

re: #561 jaunte

The social problem can be encapsulated in the contrast between the words slut, and stud. Who is the irresponsible one, and who pays?


Well, both are irresponsible but when you are the one who is capable of carrying life, you have a greater responsibility. Life's not fair.

590 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:45:58pm

re: #478 reine.de.tout

Well, not for the first time, you are saying it seems, that you find that my belief that abortion is an abhorrent practice is something that makes me morally abhorrent in your eyes.

I have made no judgement of you based on your position; but you feel compelled, time after time, to tell me how "morally abhorrent" I am.

We have nothing to say to each other.

It was obvious that I was referring to doctors who refuse to perform a medically necessary procedure, and instead allow women to die.

You do not find such inaction to be morally abhorrent?

591 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:47:13pm

re: #586 The Shadow Do

I understand, and for that reason only I will relate a personal story. My wife and I elected an abortion many years ago shortly after the birth of my second daughter (totally planned, the result of a vas reversal). It all seemed to make sense then what with family planning and affordability and such.

I can tell you that the thought of that child we did not have is in my, and probably her, thoughts daily.

Abortion is bad in my book with health exceptions to the contrary of course.

There is no do-over.

I am in tears, truly.
For very similar reasons.

592 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:48:30pm

re: #590 Salamantis

It was obvious that I was referring to doctors who refuse to perform a medically necessary procedure, and instead allow women to die.

You do not find such inaction to be morally abhorrent?

who are these doctors?

I would imagine all these dead women might make some headlines, no ?

I would find it medically abhorrhent if it was happening

593 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:48:36pm

re: #588 HoosierHoops

There is this law in Indiana that you can't drive thru Muncie without buying a Ball U tee-Shirt...Or as we call it..Testicle Tech...
/Penn State..Number1 party school in the United States.
Takes dedication

LOL!
Hoosier, Indiana can compete for the most piss-poor party school. This is a category that has not been properly explored. Never, ever, ever go on a blind date with a coed from Purdue. Not even an open-eyed broad daylight date. Trust me on this.

The only party in Lafayette is a group of guys drinking beer planning a trip to IU...

594 pink freud  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:48:41pm

re: #591 reine.de.tout

{Reine}
I admire you so much. You fight the good fight, sweetheart.

595 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:49:15pm

re: #480 tradewind

Funny how 'escort ' is synonmyous with other less than wholesome activity in the police/vice squad vernacular.
(Sorry I can't congratulate you for your volunteer work).

In this case, it was to shield the women entering the clinics, and to absorb the blows directed at them from the wooden protest placards wielded by the antiabortion pickets on my own head and shoulders.

And oh yeah; fuck you very much.

596 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:49:21pm

re: #586 The Shadow Do

I understand, and for that reason only I will relate a personal story. My wife and I elected an abortion many years ago shortly after the birth of my second daughter (totally planned, the result of a vas reversal). It all seemed to make sense then what with family planning and affordability and such.

I can tell you that the thought of that child we did not have is in my, and probably her, thoughts daily.

Abortion is bad in my book with health exceptions to the contrary of course.

There is no do-over.


been through the same thing.

597 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:49:24pm

re: #591 reine.de.tout

I am in tears, truly.
For very similar reasons.

I'm crying too Reine, right now

598 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:50:26pm

re: #594 pink freud

{Reine}
I admire you so much. You fight the good fight, sweetheart.

*blush*
thank you kindly.
{pinkie}

599 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:50:44pm

re: #586 The Shadow Do

I understand, and for that reason only I will relate a personal story. My wife and I elected an abortion many years ago shortly after the birth of my second daughter (totally planned, the result of a vas reversal). It all seemed to make sense then what with family planning and affordability and such.

I can tell you that the thought of that child we did not have is in my, and probably her, thoughts daily.

Abortion is bad in my book with health exceptions to the contrary of course.

There is no do-over.

Shadow: I hear what you're saying. I was in a very similar situation.

The only thing worse than abortion, I believe, is a government so intrusive that it would take that choice away from a mother and father.

But I respect, very much, your position on the issue.

600 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:50:59pm

re: #596 Shug

been through the same thing.

Shit

601 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:51:17pm

re: #592 Shug

who are these doctors?

I would imagine all these dead women might make some headlines, no ?

I would find it medically abhorrhent if it was happening

No, it isn't happening, because the procedures have been performed by Dr. Tiller and two others, to whom such women have been referred.

But we're only two more antiabortion murders away.

602 KansasMom  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:51:42pm

re: #585 Shug

then they aren't that unstable and their procedure wasn't really so Life saving. that is my point.

Tiller should have been able to do his thing in a hospital when it was truly indicated. In my mind, the case that is truly saving the life of the mother is the one that ought to be done in a hospital setting. Otherwise, it probably wasn't completely medically indicated.

Do you have any idea how unsafe it would have been for Tiller to operate anywhere except his own clinic?

603 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:51:53pm

re: #482 Shug

countdown to somebody telling how they " took the blows" in 5...4...3...2...

bring on the poetry !!

604 danrudy  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:52:25pm

OFF TOPIC

OBama a hypocrite? Complaining on Randi ROhodes show that Bush rushed patriot bill through so no one could read it? THis is freakin Priceless!!!

Transcript of Obama on Randi Rhodes show>

or just for audio

Audio of Obama on Randi Rhodes show...

605 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:53:19pm

re: #484 sattv4u2

I was a driver for social service workers in inner city Boston for 4 years. I also have thousands

And you talked to these women directly, as I did, or only heard it second hand?

606 Ian MacGregor  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:53:53pm

Satellite photographs of the arctic have been available for quite some 2007 was a year of great concern. 2008 was a bit better. I'm not sure what National Technical Means are being revealed here.

See [Link: arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu...]

607 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:53:59pm

re: #586 The Shadow Do

There is no do-over.

Nope. And that points at the untold story. Anyone who regrets it knows no one wants to hear that. Not the pro-choice friends and not the pro-life friends either. So it just stays there.

608 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:54:41pm

re: #602 KansasMom

Do you have any idea how unsafe it would have been for Tiller to operate anywhere except his own clinic?


that is unfortunate but nonetheless, I stand by my assertation that a patient too unstable to undergo an induction of labor should have a complex procedure in a clinic setting.

It is sad that a medically necessary procedure ( probably a tiny minority of what was done in his office) is subject to uneducated Randall Terry types who force inappropriate medical risk onto patients.

609 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:55:02pm

re: #595 Salamantis

In this case, it was to shield the women entering the clinics, and to absorb the blows directed at them from the wooden protest placards wielded by the antiabortion polecats on my own head and shoulders.

And oh yeah; fuck you very much.

fixed. People who resort to violence to get what they want are skunks in my book, (and I'm pro-life so this comment isn't about me approving of abortion).

610 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:55:23pm

re: #599 ShanghaiEd

Shadow: I hear what you're saying. I was in a very similar situation.

The only thing worse than abortion, I believe, is a government so intrusive that it would take that choice away from a mother and father.

But I respect, very much, your position on the issue.

Believe it or not, I agree with the choice position. What is totally unfair is that the deck is informationally stacked against having that baby. It's no big thing, don't be punished with a baby, and on and on and on.

crap, I'm still cr;ying.

611 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:55:54pm

re: #585 Shug

then they aren't that unstable and their procedure wasn't really so Life saving. that is my point.

Tiller should have been able to do his thing in a hospital when it was truly indicated. In my mind, the case that is truly saving the life of the mother is the one that ought to be done in a hospital setting. Otherwise, it probably wasn't completely medically indicated.

BTW: I believe in England ,France, netherlands, etc etc somehow they are able to not do these beyong 22-23 weeks and the women manage to stay alive, without these "heros" doing late term ab's. How peculiar

How many of these procedures could these doctors have performed if they had to jet all over the world to perform them, instead of having all but the absolutely immoveable patients come to them? And how many hospitals which typically do NOT perform such procedures would have the specialized equipment and experienced personnel ready to hand?

612 Shug  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:56:01pm

re: #601 Salamantis

No, it isn't happening, because the procedures have been performed by Dr. Tiller and two others, to whom such women have been referred.

But we're only two more antiabortion murders away.

so they aren't too unstable to travel cross country...

613 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:56:35pm

re: #492 Ian MacGregor

Well that was certainly worth a down- ding.

But not by me.

May you know that my admiration for you, and all those like you, that are taking this path, (you have peers here) cannot be put into mere words. I mean it. You exceed the limits of my capacity to tell how greatly I look up to you and those like you, who travel that road.
If there is a heaven, I hope there is a special place for those like you. And if not, I hope you go to your rest with a peaceful smile after many, many years..

614 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:56:54pm

re: #604 danrudy

OFF TOPIC

OBama a hypocrite? Complaining on Randi ROhodes show that Bush rushed patriot bill through so no one could read it? THis is freakin Priceless!!!

Transcript of Obama on Randi Rhodes show>

or just for audio

Audio of Obama on Randi Rhodes show...

Saw that a little earlier. More non-news to not be covered by non-journalists.

615 danrudy  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:59:58pm

re: #614 Pianobuff


Non news? I would think more overt hypocrisy from Obama (which btw was one of his campaigh promises...remember how all Bills would be posted for 5 days on the web for citizens to review) would help weaken his ability to push legislation down our throats. At the very least he's got some 'splainin to do

616 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:00:19pm

re: #498 The Shadow Do

Being shot to death is a measure of heroism? Lots of gunshot victims, not many heros I think. Lots of heros in Chicago these days for example...

Are they shot to death because in the face of constant threats to their lives, they year after year insist upon continuing to save the lives and health of others? I think not.

617 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:01:14pm

re: #615 danrudy

Non news? I would think more overt hypocrisy from Obama (which btw was one of his campaigh promises...remember how all Bills would be posted for 5 days on the web for citizens to review) would help weaken his ability to push legislation down our throats. At the very least he's got some 'splainin to do

It was snark...you know... nothing to see here, let's move along now... hey look at those nutty Republicans over there.

618 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:02:07pm

re: #603 Shug

bring on the poetry !!

I don't know if its 'poetry' but Sinatra could 'take the blows'.

619 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:02:08pm

re: #612 Shug

so they aren't too unstable to travel cross country...

You'd prefer that they wait until they were? Or does the word 'prognosis', being able to medically predict future consequences if particular steps aren't taken, mean anything to you?

620 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:02:45pm

re: #616 Salamantis

Are they shot to death because in the face of constant threats to their lives, they year after year insist upon continuing to save the lives and health of others? I think not.

Or just make a fine living my friend? I don't know, but you don't either. High workers take risk and make big dough, doctors do not do the same?

Damn, I was going to drop this topic. Nuff said.

621 danrudy  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:04:10pm

re: #617 Pianobuff

ahh gotcha...I once got chided for not adding the all important /s so I am sensitive to its use.
Didnt mean to be a little more empahtic. I think this is going to real funny as it gets airplay and goes viral around the web

622 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:04:50pm

re: #503 Mich-again

Curious here. How do you train someone to glean inner intentions from strangers in an interview. That would be a very inexact science. Some people are easy to read. Others put up all sorts of roadblocks. I understand the point of the questioning, I just am a bit skeptical that the standard for the eventual go-no go decision was very consistent. What would you estimate would be the % of those who are turned away.

I didn't keep count, but rare was the day that someone wasn't turned away. And you can see and hear hesitation and uncertainty in voice and posture. The counsellors were trained to do so.

623 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:06:10pm

re: #620 The Shadow Do

Or just make a fine living my friend? I don't know, but you don't either. High workers take risk and make big dough, doctors do not do the same?

Damn, I was going to drop this topic. Nuff said.

Are bullets from fanatics part of high steel workers' panoply of risks, or just I beam foot slippage?

624 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:07:41pm

re: #623 Salamantis

Are bullets from fanatics part of high steel workers' panoply of risks, or just I beam foot slippage?

Dead is dead. Now I'm done.

625 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:10:07pm

re: #532 Wendya

In a culture of personal responsibility and integrity, they would.

Right. Because no one is poor except by their own fault.

626 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:10:50pm

Did the German police on a routine call catch a terrorist or was the medical student

merely a windbag who has seen one too many Osama videos,

Germany openly warns of terror threat Now that they can't blame GWB for everything they have to face up to the very real threats facing them from the Jihadis. I look for their recent idealism to fade a bit in light of that. I wouldn't be surprised if any of their prisoners request a transfer to Gitmo.

627 OregonGuy  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:11:22pm

I read a comment on "Rantburg" posted the day of Dr. Tiller's death. I asked for permission of the poster to re-post his comment. I re-post it here:

"#17: Weirdly, I have a couple connections to this story. And they make me want to punch somebody. Or multiple somebody's.

First, as a cub reporter, I helped the "Operation Rescue" demonstrations in the early '90s in front of Tiller's clinic. I would describe myself as moderately pro-life, but the tactics I saw employed there really turned my stomach.

I saw parents have their KIDS dive in front of MOVING CARS to stop them from going into the clinic. I talked to a young woman who had an abortion at the clinic when she discovered her second-trimester baby was going to be born without a heart. There was nothing to be done at the time. The baby was going to be born dead.

The harassment and the name-calling she went through during that time was nothing I would wish on anybody. I mean, it's tough enough to know that your baby is effectively dead, but to be called his or her killer?

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Tiller himself. I despise the line of work he's in, but behind every ZOMG! HITLER'S DEAD! VON STUFFINWHARGARBLE that's on display here, I think of that young, prospective mother, and think that the people that made her life hell thought of themselves as Christians. And it turns my stomach. Every abortion is a human tragedy, but it isn't always the one that you think.

I know Tiller's daughter through my sister, who are both in medicine in Kansas. From one dinner and my brief encounters, I would assume that she leans nominally pro-life. I think she was estranged, slightly, from her father and his chosen line of work. But defiant in a way, because she grew up in a house of death threats, intimations of classmates, and the pointing at the Scarlet Letter that came with growing up as George Tiller's daughter. She had grown some hard bark. Had to. She doesn't go by her family name. I also know that a smart, beautiful daughter who I respect and admire pointlessly lost her father today, and that makes me mad.

We can assume that the shooter is a pro-life zealot. I mean, he target Tiller in the lobby of a church. It wasn't a robbery. It was an assassination. And people wonder why the government's report fingered right-wing extremism here a few weeks ago. Exhibit A, as far as Obama's group is thinking.

And just for the fun of it, let's go with an analogy. Tiller's Shooter=suicide bomber. Those who celebrate the schadenfreude; the percentage of Muslims that celebrate those attacks. Is there a difference? What is the difference?

I consider myself a Christian (went to hear Franklin Graham speak in Tallinn last night), but I wonder on days like this when the Sermon on the Mount got skipped over. "Love thy neighbor as thyself." "Love the sinner, not the sin."

So today's scorecard is:
One almost 70-year-old man;
A family ripped apart;
Anyone right of Colin Powell, who can be now painted as potential nutjob;
The pro-life movement, which was gaining majority traction in the U.S. I think the fence-sitters will tend to lean another way now.

Well done, shooter. But I don't think you thought your cunning plan through. Fraker."

([Link: www.rantburg.com...]

We have shared cultural beliefs. Homocide is not one of those. The fault may lie within the man, as I could not simply rip life from the womb of a mother because of the mere inconvenience of a baby's life. But I cannot countenance the death of a man when our government has given its own imprimature to the practise of abortion.

The fault more clearly lies with those politicans who countenance such actions. And those we can simply refuse to re-elect.
.

628 Macker  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:12:55pm

re: #626 Mich-again

Long story short: Оба́ма's in office, he won't be of any help, we're on our own...

629 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:13:46pm

re: #547 Wendya

I don't consider abortion to be a moral stance. It's the law of the land and in some cases, I accept the necessity but I will never consider a woman aborting for any reason other than a life saving measure to have made a moral decision. This whole culture of sex without responsibility is bullshit.

That's what individual freedom of choice is all about; so each of us is free to make and carry out life decisions for ourselves of which others may disapprove.

630 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:14:30pm

re: #624 The Shadow Do

Dead is dead. Now I'm done.

Accidental death isn't assassination.

631 Ian MacGregor  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:15:53pm

[Link: www.birth.com.au...]

Discusses miscarriage rates. The rate for known pregnancies is between 15 and 20%. Higher than I expected, but the 33% quoted must include miscarriages by women who never new she was pregnant. Besides even if the rate were 90% does that justify purposely taking the life of another human being.

Freedom is not the ability to do whatever we please, freedom is the ability to do good. Taking the life of a child in a womb is not doing good.

A fetus is not a potential human being it is a human being with potential. Legally it is not a person, but that does not mean it is not worth protecting. If a life-saving procedure results in the death of a fetus the death of a fetus, the doctor needs to perform that procedure without hesitation. However the doctor should make a practice of killing children in the womb.

Most of the country is now pro life. I doubt most want and end to all abortions, but certainly want to see the practice curtailed, and late term abortions stopped.

632 Pianobuff  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:16:58pm

re: #626 Mich-again

Did the German police on a routine call catch a terrorist or was the medical student

Germany openly warns of terror threat Now that they can't blame GWB for everything they have to face up to the very real threats facing them from the Jihadis. I look for their recent idealism to fade a bit in light of that. I wouldn't be surprised if any of their prisoners request a transfer to Gitmo.

Nice find.

633 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:17:19pm

re: #627 OregonGuy

I read a comment on "Rantburg" posted the day of Dr. Tiller's death. I asked for permission of the poster to re-post his comment. I re-post it here:

"#17: Weirdly, I have a couple connections to this story. And they make me want to punch somebody. Or multiple somebody's.

First, as a cub reporter, I helped the "Operation Rescue" demonstrations in the early '90s in front of Tiller's clinic. I would describe myself as moderately pro-life, but the tactics I saw employed there really turned my stomach.

I saw parents have their KIDS dive in front of MOVING CARS to stop them from going into the clinic. I talked to a young woman who had an abortion at the clinic when she discovered her second-trimester baby was going to be born without a heart. There was nothing to be done at the time. The baby was going to be born dead.

The harassment and the name-calling she went through during that time was nothing I would wish on anybody. I mean, it's tough enough to know that your baby is effectively dead, but to be called his or her killer?

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Tiller himself. I despise the line of work he's in, but behind every ZOMG! HITLER'S DEAD! VON STUFFINWHARGARBLE that's on display here, I think of that young, prospective mother, and think that the people that made her life hell thought of themselves as Christians. And it turns my stomach. Every abortion is a human tragedy, but it isn't always the one that you think.

I know Tiller's daughter through my sister, who are both in medicine in Kansas. From one dinner and my brief encounters, I would assume that she leans nominally pro-life. I think she was estranged, slightly, from her father and his chosen line of work. But defiant in a way, because she grew up in a house of death threats, intimations of classmates, and the pointing at the Scarlet Letter that came with growing up as George Tiller's daughter. She had grown some hard bark. Had to. She doesn't go by her family name. I also know that a smart, beautiful daughter who I respect and admire pointlessly lost her father today, and that makes me mad.

We can assume that the shooter is a pro-life zealot. I mean, he target Tiller in the lobby of a church. It wasn't a robbery. It was an assassination. And people wonder why the government's report fingered right-wing extremism here a few weeks ago. Exhibit A, as far as Obama's group is thinking.

And just for the fun of it, let's go with an analogy. Tiller's Shooter=suicide bomber. Those who celebrate the schadenfreude; the percentage of Muslims that celebrate those attacks. Is there a difference? What is the difference?

I consider myself a Christian (went to hear Franklin Graham speak in Tallinn last night), but I wonder on days like this when the Sermon on the Mount got skipped over. "Love thy neighbor as thyself." "Love the sinner, not the sin."

So today's scorecard is:
One almost 70-year-old man;
A family ripped apart;
Anyone right of Colin Powell, who can be now painted as potential nutjob;
The pro-life movement, which was gaining majority traction in the U.S. I think the fence-sitters will tend to lean another way now.

Well done, shooter. But I don't think you thought your cunning plan through. Fraker."

([Link: www.rantburg.com...]

We have shared cultural beliefs. Homocide is not one of those. The fault may lie within the man, as I could not simply rip life from the womb of a mother because of the mere inconvenience of a baby's life. But I cannot countenance the death of a man when our government has given its own imprimature to the practise of abortion.

The fault more clearly lies with those politicans who countenance such actions. And those we can simply refuse to re-elect.
.

Quite Concur. Upding and favorited. Your post showed how to be pro-life without supporting the Operation: Rescue (OpRes) loons.

634 Macker  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:17:48pm

re: #631 Ian MacGregor

Most of the country is now pro life. I doubt most want and end to all abortions, but certainly want to see the practice curtailed, and late term abortions stopped.

That sure as hell won't happen so long as Оба́ма is President.

635 funky chicken  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:17:49pm

I wonder which one of Roeder's freak friends called him to tell him that Wichita is now "abortion free" since he murdered Dr. Tiller? What a bunch of fucking lunatics. Again, if anybody is wondering how Kansans elected a Democrat governor, look no farther than Randall Terry and his Operation Rescue. Fred Phelps first came to prominence in KS after Operation Rescue got famous for their idiot antics in KS, and Phelps's stock in trade was "protesting" outside physicians' homes in Lawrence and Topeka.

636 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:19:04pm

re: #626 Mich-again

Did the German police on a routine call catch a terrorist or was the medical student

Germany openly warns of terror threat Now that they can't blame GWB for everything they have to face up to the very real threats facing them from the Jihadis. I look for their recent idealism to fade a bit in light of that. I wouldn't be surprised if any of their prisoners request a transfer to Gitmo.

Well at least Germany is finally doing its part in Afghanistan.

German Tanks And Infantry Attack In The East

637 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:19:15pm

re: #631 Ian MacGregor

A fetus is not a potential human being it is a human being with potential. Legally it is not a person

Not entirely true. People have been charged with double murder for killing a pregnant woman. I don't quite get that logic.

638 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:22:54pm

re: #631 Ian MacGregor

Freedom is not the ability to do whatever we please, freedom is the ability to do good.

Sheer, utter, unmitigated nonsense.

639 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:23:40pm

re: #634 Macker

That sure as hell won't happen so long as Оба́ма is President.

Macker: If greater access to contraceptives does result in a lowered abortion rate during Obama's term, will you give him any credit for it?

640 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:26:38pm

re: #639 ShanghaiEd

Macker: If greater access to contraceptives does result in a lowered abortion rate during Obama's term, will you give him any credit for it?

I would, though the credit would be muted, I would give him credit.

641 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:27:00pm

re: #634 Macker

That sure as hell won't happen so long as Оба́ма is President.

You go to all the trouble of putting his name in Russian characters and then expose your stupidity with a completely impossible accent over the "м".

Or is it just cut-and-paste idiocy in your case?

642 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:29:03pm

re: #626 Mich-again

Did the German police on a routine call catch a terrorist or was the medical student


Germany openly warns of terror threat Now that they can't blame GWB for everything they have to face up to the very real threats facing them from the Jihadis. I look for their recent idealism to fade a bit in light of that. I wouldn't be surprised if any of their prisoners request a transfer to Gitmo.


Two democratic senators with shady deals outed as dems in the news. I first noted the trend with gary condit, that news orgs delighted in republican scandals and just refused to put the "d' after the other kind...But the trend is breaking and the question is;

was a democratically controlled congress the goal, and since it has been obtained, some relaxation has occurred?

or

is the tide turning the other way, because this is not working out as planned?


by all means, feel free to respond!

643 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:29:16pm

re: #586 The Shadow Do

I understand, and for that reason only I will relate a personal story. My wife and I elected an abortion many years ago shortly after the birth of my second daughter (totally planned, the result of a vas reversal). It all seemed to make sense then what with family planning and affordability and such.

I can tell you that the thought of that child we did not have is in my, and probably her, thoughts daily.

Abortion is bad in my book with health exceptions to the contrary of course.

There is no do-over.

Here's the flip side.

When my ex-wife was a young Naval officer, before we met, she was shipped over to Italy, and being lonely, began an affair with another Naval officer. Her diaphragm failed, and she became pregnant. She sought counseling with her commanding officer, who, like she, was a staunch Catholic. He advised her to carry her pregnancy to term and give it up for adoption.

As soon as she was too far along to obtain an abortion, the selfsame commanding officer publicly denounced her before her assembled unit as a whore and a strumpet. Meanwhile, other servicewomen were flying to Germany for weekend abortions with no personal or career consequences. She was crushed, and as soon as the gave birth, she resigned her commission and returned to the states, where I met her.

She has never fully recovered from the experience. More than thirty years later, she continues to have nightmares about the kid seeking her out, curses both her bastard CO and the fact that she listened to him, rues the fact that trusting, confiding in and listening to him ended her military career, and regrets not having the abortion.

644 funky chicken  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:31:06pm

re: #626 Mich-again

The documents that Ali R., a Palestinian who grew up in the Gaza Strip, had stored on a USB storage device included information on the use of bombs and booby traps, bomb-building instructions and a propaganda video. When agents analyzed his mobile phone, they discovered ambiguous text messages in Arabic in which mention was made of a "bride" and a "groom" -- terms Islamists have used in the past as code words when planning attacks.
According to the counterterrorism files in which Germany's federal and state governments collect information about Islamists, the student had been listed as a "relevant person" since 2005 and was considered part of the jihadist milieu. In one photo, he is shown with a full beard and wearing a white crocheted cap of the type worn by pious Muslims.

sigh, and on topic, IMHO. I recall that Roeder had been on law enforcement's radar for a while too, right? at least the Germans got "Ali R" off the streets before he killed anybody.

645 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:33:09pm

re: #643 Salamantis

Was in an orphanage.
We prefered being alive.
I still am rather fond of it.

646 funky chicken  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:34:06pm

Well, off to bed. The owls are hooting, which means I should be asleep :-)

647 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:35:26pm

The owls hoot in derision at the foolish humans.

Me to bed, too.

648 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:35:58pm

re: #603 Shug

bring on the poetry !!

It actually happened. Too many times to count. And I received dozens of phoned in death threats a day for weeks on end, had my car tailed, my home surveilled, my university records illegally accessed to build a profile to use against me, my car sabotaged, and our family cat strangled and hung from a tree in our backyard with a note safety-pinned to its belly that read YOU'RE NEXT, BABY KILLER!

AAnd all because I couldn't stand to see those bastards beating those women.

649 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:42:14pm

re: #643 Salamantis

What a rotten CO. People give Catholics a pro-lifers a bad name. I hope he has repented of that foul deed, because Jesus will have some sharp things to say about it when he dies.

650 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:43:45pm

re: #648 Salamantis

Sal,
Thank you for your eloquence and persistence on this topic tonight!
I appreciate it, very much.

651 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:43:47pm

re: #648 Salamantis

It actually happened. Too many times to count. And I received dozens of phoned in death threats a day for weeks on end, had my car tailed, my home surveilled, my university records illegally accessed to build a profile to use against me, my car sabotaged, and our family cat strangled and hung from a tree in our backyard with a note safety-pinned to its belly that read YOU'RE NEXT, BABY KILLER!

And all because I couldn't stand to see those bastards beating those women.

Horrid. That story gives me pain whenever I hear it. And one the worst parts that those people call themselves Christians, though their behavior indicates that they are not followers of Jesus.

652 subsailor68  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:44:47pm

Evening all. This is probably the saddest topic I've read in all the years I've been here. In each passionate response, I feel the specifics of a personal experience intrude into the position someone is taking.

I think I'll leave it at this: I will pray for those women who have made the decision that will be the most important they will ever make - regardless of which way they decide to proceed.

I will pray for the men who, with no way to know what a woman is feeling, needing, or going through, decide that one way is acceptable, another not.

I will pray for those politicians who truly do not know what the right thing to do may be - given the passions on both sides - and for those who do have a feeling for the passions on both sides, but want to wait to see how the political winds are blowing before making a decision.

I will pray for the children not born.

I will pray for the children born.

I will pray for America. There is no simple, no "right", no political decision.

There is only sadness.

653 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:45:14pm

re: #649 Dark_Falcon

I know it's late, but crank up the discourse just a notch. That is a bit on the trite side.

Just sayin

654 sngnsgt  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:46:51pm

re: #542 Racer X

Frogmarch him!!!

655 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:47:33pm

re: #650 Floral Giraffe

Sal,
Thank you for your eloquence and persistence on this topic tonight!
I appreciate it, very much.

My thanks too, Sal. You have done yeoman duty, bringing factual information on a subject that is a very sore spot for most of us.

656 shortshrift  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:48:30pm

re: #182 placeholder

The pro-choice argument that pro-lifers are inconsistent because they support the death penalty is exactly canceled by the pro-lifers argument that the pro-choicers are inconsistent because they are against the death penalty. Then the argument shifts to innocent baby versus convicted criminal. Thereafter it moves to "baby" versus collection of cells, miscarriage of due process versus justice being done.

Abortion, euthanasia, death penalty - all hard cases of justifiable (or not) homicide. Our culture is moving from no, no, yes (conservative) to yes, yes, no (liberal). Yes, yes, yes would be the libertarian (small l) point of view, no, no, no would find favor among many religious Christians.

I hope I have offended nobody, but that is where consistency considerations take you politically!

657 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:50:51pm

re: #652 subsailor68

While you're prayin', give my friend Yvonne a bit.
Bone cancer, three disks.
She's Apache, and has an Amazon parrot that lets the dog wash it.
Amazing person.

I'm doing my part.

658 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:52:03pm

re: #631 Ian MacGregor

[Link: www.birth.com.au...]

Discusses miscarriage rates. The rate for known pregnancies is between 15 and 20%. Higher than I expected, but the 33% quoted must include miscarriages by women who never new she was pregnant. Besides even if the rate were 90% does that justify purposely taking the life of another human being.

Human beings are persons. Zygotes, embryos and fetuses are not persons.

Freedom is not the ability to do whatever we please, freedom is the ability to do good. Taking the life of a child in a womb is not doing good.

Zygotes, embryos and fetuses are not children. Children are BORN. And peoples' definition of good varies. Is it good to allow a woman to die against her will in order to bring a motherless infant into the world?

A fetus is not a potential human being it is a human being with potential. Legally it is not a person, but that does not mean it is not worth protecting. If a life-saving procedure results in the death of a fetus the death of a fetus, the doctor needs to perform that procedure without hesitation. However the doctor should make a practice of killing children in the womb.

Nice wordplay in the service of a purposefully emotionally laden medical misconstrual. Possible ain't potential, and human beings are persons, and persons are born.

Most of the country is now pro life. I doubt most want and end to all abortions, but certainly want to see the practice curtailed, and late term abortions stopped.

There are only about a thousand third trimester abortions performed per year in the US out of 6 million pregnancies per year, and there isn't a whole lot of room to reduce that number without piling up dead and permanently maimed women. And part of being pro life is respecting the rights of those lives to make their own life choices.

659 subsailor68  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:58:22pm

re: #657 swamprat

While you're prayin', give my friend Yvonne a bit.
Bone cancer, three disks.
She's Apache, and has an Amazon parrot that lets the dog wash it.
Amazing person.

I'm doing my part.

If you're doing your part, she's half way home. Yvonne - if you're listening - I have a friend who was diagnosed with cancer - melanoma - and told he needed to put his life in order - quickly.

That was in 1991. He and I had drinks together.

About three hours ago.

My prayers are with you - and with swamprat.

660 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 9:58:40pm

Hey Night Lizards! It was another pleasant July Day in Near Iowa.

Well done article. I was taken by the statement about the killer by the anti-abortionist activist: "he has killed more babies than he has saved".

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

661 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:00:35pm

re: #653 swamprat

I know it's late, but crank up the discourse just a notch. That is a bit on the trite side.

Just sayin

Sorry. I've got a lot on my mind. I've got aproblem at work I need help with, but getting the help is very tough.

662 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:00:56pm

re: #656 shortshrift

The pro-choice argument that pro-lifers are inconsistent because they support the death penalty is exactly canceled by the pro-lifers argument that the pro-choicers are inconsistent because they are against the death penalty. Then the argument shifts to innocent baby versus convicted criminal. Thereafter it moves to "baby" versus collection of cells, miscarriage of due process versus justice being done.

Abortion, euthanasia, death penalty - all hard cases of justifiable (or not) homicide. Our culture is moving from no, no, yes (conservative) to yes, yes, no (liberal). Yes, yes, yes would be the libertarian (small l) point of view, no, no, no would find favor among many religious Christians.

I hope I have offended nobody, but that is where consistency considerations take you politically!

shortshrift: That's an interesting point, but I say the conservative/liberal divide you posit is a lot more complicated than that.

For instance, the most basic, rock-solid attribute of conservatism, to me, is non-intrusion of government into personal and private matters.

How on earth did this get transformed into a crusade for the government to control, absolutely, the beginning and end of life, excluding from the process (a) women who would be forced to bear children against their will, and (b) terminally ill individuals who would be forced to live in pain beyond any hope of recovery?

What is more personal and private than a human being's own body?

663 Ian MacGregor  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:01:49pm

Cato the elder.

What is nonsensical about the statement? The ability to do whatever we please is license not freedom. I am not free to steal a car or to do things which are legal but unjust. Indeed if I use my freedom to do bad things, I'll soon find myself a slave of the bad things I do.

664 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:02:54pm

re: #657 swamprat

While you're prayin', give my friend Yvonne a bit.
Bone cancer, three disks.
She's Apache, and has an Amazon parrot that lets the dog wash it.
Amazing person.

I'm doing my part.

swamp: My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your friend. I don't know you personally, but I'm guessing she's fortunate to have you in her corner in this situation.

665 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:04:19pm

re: #658 Salamantis


I just chastised a person who has given me numerous updings for being "trite".
By your logic ceasarean Section negates personhood.
This is a slippery topic, akin to deciding when something qualifes as "green" or "blue", but with far more important ramifications.

If you make it through the portal unscathed, then all ranks and privledges afforded a human being are yours to claim.

Doesn't seem right, somehow.

Too important, and I am too tired to come up with anything better Goodnight lizards.

666 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:07:00pm

re: #661 Dark_Falcon

Good night to you, lord falcon.
May tomorrow find you better.

667 shortshrift  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:07:16pm

re: #662 ShanghaiEd

So wouldn't that make you a libertarian (again small l, not to be confused with Ron Paul ) ? Where do you stand on the death penalty?

668 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:07:42pm

re: #642 swamprat

Not sure I see the connection between the German terrorist investigation and some greedy US liberal politicians running with the common "rules are for other people" line.

669 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:08:30pm

re: #666 swamprat

Good night to you, lord falcon.
May tomorrow find you better.

good night to you as well, swamprat.

670 swamprat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:09:15pm

re: #668 Mich-again

Was reporting a change in the wind.

671 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:11:45pm

re: #663 Ian MacGregor

Cato the elder.

What is nonsensical about the statement? The ability to do whatever we please is license not freedom. I am not free to steal a car or to do things which are legal but unjust. Indeed if I use my freedom to do bad things, I'll soon find myself a slave of the bad things I do.

Ian: I think Cato checked out for the evening, but I would argue this...

We are not free to do things that are illegal, but we are free to do things that are unjust.

This is, I would argue, the irreducible basis of a secular democracy as opposed to a theocracy. "Illegal" is a secular term, defined by the legal system. "Unjust" is a philosophical and religious term, and is defined differently by each individual. Being forced to live according to what each particular individual in power over my life considered "just" or "unjust" at any given moment is my idea of a Kafka nightmare, and we see it happening in societies around the world who have gone the theocracy route.

If I become a slave of the bad things I do, it should be the laws of physics that punish me for it, not an individual who considers him/herself more "just" than me. That way lies madness.

Just my two cents.

672 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:12:05pm

Off to Cedar Point in the early AM with an SUV full of kids. That is the without a doubt the most awesome badass roller coaster amusement park in the world. We'll ride the Maverick, the Dragster, and the Millennium Force many times if all goes as planned. Yeah I'm too old for this stuff but what the hey.

673 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:15:03pm

re: #663 Ian MacGregor

Cato the elder.

What is nonsensical about the statement? The ability to do whatever we please is license not freedom. I am not free to steal a car or to do things which are legal but unjust. Indeed if I use my freedom to do bad things, I'll soon find myself a slave of the bad things I do.

What is nonsensical about the statement is that it depends upon others' definition of what is good. There is no rational, reasonable dispute concerning the fact that stealing others' nest eggs, or lying about whether one has AIDS to a prospective sexual partner, or gunning down an abortion doctor in a church are bad. But people of good conscience can credibly disagree about whether any particular abortion is or is not a good and right decision, given the specific circumstances. Which is why the decision should be left up to the woman directly concerned.

674 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:15:22pm

re: #652 subsailor68

Oddly lovely post. Updinged.

675 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:15:38pm

re: #660 ggt
Fun Dead Thread topic...
Wonder who LGF would nominate as its representative to this list? Recognize any of the top ten?
[Link: regretfulmorning.com...]

676 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:16:40pm

re: #667 shortshrift

So wouldn't that make you a libertarian (again small l, not to be confused with Ron Paul ) ? Where do you stand on the death penalty?

I've always been opposed to the death penalty, as perhaps the ultimate intrusion of government.

Nowadays that would seem to make me a libertarian by default, wouldn't it? But wasn't there a time, before the Religious Right, when basic conservatism was first and foremost about personal freedom? Or am I just wearing rose-colored glasses? :)

677 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:17:43pm

re: #665 swamprat

I just chastised a person who has given me numerous updings for being "trite".
By your logic ceasarean Section negates personhood.
This is a slippery topic, akin to deciding when something qualifes as "green" or "blue", but with far more important ramifications.

If you make it through the portal unscathed, then all ranks and privledges afforded a human being are yours to claim.

Doesn't seem right, somehow.

Too important, and I am too tired to come up with anything better Goodnight lizards.

Once a fetus has reached viability, I do not approve of abortion except in cases where the life or health of the mother are endangered, or when the fetus is either already dead, or so horrifically diseased, damaged or deformed that it could not long survive delivery.

678 subsailor68  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:18:09pm

re: #671 ShanghaiEd

Ian: I think Cato checked out for the evening, but I would argue this...

We are not free to do things that are illegal, but we are free to do things that are unjust.

This is, I would argue, the irreducible basis of a secular democracy as opposed to a theocracy. "Illegal" is a secular term, defined by the legal system. "Unjust" is a philosophical and religious term, and is defined differently by each individual. Being forced to live according to what each particular individual in power over my life considered "just" or "unjust" at any given moment is my idea of a Kafka nightmare, and we see it happening in societies around the world who have gone the theocracy route.

If I become a slave of the bad things I do, it should be the laws of physics that punish me for it, not an individual who considers him/herself more "just" than me. That way lies madness.

Just my two cents.

Hi shanghai! I think you're alluding to what William F. Buckley defined as the difference between malum prohibitum and malum en se. If I remember correctly, it was the difference between that which is wrong because we (i.e. the state) says it is wrong, and that which is wrong because it is, by nature, wrong.

His example was coming to a stop sign in the middle of the desert, where you can see miles and miles in every direction. If there is no one in either direction, and you run the stop sign, your are guilty of malum prohibitum, but not malum en se.

Is that what you were thinking?

679 subsailor68  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:21:22pm

re: #674 Killgore Trout

Oddly lovely post. Updinged.

Evening Killgore. Thank you for the upding. I do appreciate it. It's good to see you here tonight!!

680 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:21:30pm

I'm weary, so I'm going to bed. Goodnight, all.

681 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:21:42pm

re: #675 tradewind

Fun Dead Thread topic...
Wonder who LGF would nominate as its representative to this list? Recognize any of the top ten?
[Link: regretfulmorning.com...]

No, I don't recognize any of the top 9 (?).

I'm not sure I'd want to be recognized.

I nominate:

zombie

682 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:22:24pm

re: #678 subsailor68

Hi shanghai! I think you're alluding to what William F. Buckley defined as the difference between malum prohibitum and malum en se. If I remember correctly, it was the difference between that which is wrong because we (i.e. the state) says it is wrong, and that which is wrong because it is, by nature, wrong.

His example was coming to a stop sign in the middle of the desert, where you can see miles and miles in every direction. If there is no one in either direction, and you run the stop sign, your are guilty of malum prohibitum, but not malum en se.

Is that what you were thinking?

Hey, sub! How are you?

That's not exactly the point I was getting at, but it's an interesting observation and I'd like to read Buckley's thoughts on it.

With my luck, the instant I ran a stop sign in the middle of the desert, a State Trooper would emerge from the nearest sand dune and I would immediately forget all eight words of Latin that I know. :)

683 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:22:46pm

re: #676 ShanghaiEd

I've always been opposed to the death penalty, as perhaps the ultimate intrusion of government.

Nowadays that would seem to make me a libertarian by default, wouldn't it? But wasn't there a time, before the Religious Right, when basic conservatism was first and foremost about personal freedom? Or am I just wearing rose-colored glasses? :)

Yes, the labels have been flip-flopped and turned-inside out.

684 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:23:51pm

I am going to say G'nite to all Lizards, sweet dreams!

685 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:24:47pm

My Cat Overlord is kneading my arm, but does NOT want to be petted or scratched.

Strange. The pads on his feet seem very warm.

686 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:24:52pm

re: #683 ggt

Yes, the labels have been flip-flopped and turned-inside out.

Hey, ggt: Well said, I think. That's a relief. I was afraid I was just imagining it. :)

687 subsailor68  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:25:25pm

re: #682 ShanghaiEd

Hey, sub! How are you?

That's not exactly the point I was getting at, but it's an interesting observation and I'd like to read Buckley's thoughts on it.

With my luck, the instant I ran a stop sign in the middle of the desert, a State Trooper would emerge from the nearest sand dune and I would immediately forget all eight words of Latin that I know. :)

LOL!! Can't remember which book of Buckley's that came from, but I can tell you that, if you are in the middle of the desert, and there is no one in any direction, and you run the stop sign, only to find that there was a State Trooper behind the only sand dune in fifty miles...

that would be known as Malum Crapola!

;-)

688 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:25:46pm

re: #686 ShanghaiEd

Hey, ggt: Well said, I think. That's a relief. I was afraid I was just imagining it. :)

thanks

As I've said many times, we are living in the wrong universe.

689 Ian MacGregor  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:26:04pm

re :638

Salamantis, you are using a straw man. I never said a fetus was a person. Indeed I said legally it is not. Person has a legal definition. One does not count children in the womb on the census, nor can one claim one as a dependent. However they are very much human beings. If not what type of being are they?

You keep on insisting Dr. Tiller was saving women's lives. Here are the main reasons for
late term abortions

71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy

Saving the life of the mother didn't make the list. I don't know where it falls in the 11%
which is unaccounted for. Source

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yes late term abortions are rare making up 1.4% of the total. But to suggest they are mainly done to save the life of the mother is fantasy.

690 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:26:43pm

Some things are illegal, and others may be immoral, but unlike legalities, moralities differ, depending upon who one asks.

The state must legislate legality, but should not be in the business of legislating personal morality. That should be up to individuals to decide.

Some people do not approve of homosexuality, others do not approve of abortion, others do not approve of assisted suicide for the terminally ill in intractable paralysis and pain, and still others do not approve of drinking or gambling or looking at dirty movies. They should have every right to not engage in such behaviors themselves, but they should not be able to use the state in order to forbid others from engaging in them.

691 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:27:41pm

re: #687 subsailor68

LOL!! Can't remember which book of Buckley's that came from, but I can tell you that, if you are in the middle of the desert, and there is no one in any direction, and you run the stop sign, only to find that there was a State Trooper behind the only sand dune in fifty miles...

that would be known as Malum Crapola!

;-)

Sub: You mean "Malum Crapola" is Latin for "The story of my life"? :)

692 subsailor68  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:28:41pm

re: #691 ShanghaiEd

Sub: You mean "Malum Crapola" is Latin for "The story of my life"? :)

No, remember, that was what we agreed would be the movie title!

:-)

693 slokat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:30:13pm

re: #676 ShanghaiEd

I've always been opposed to the death penalty, as perhaps the ultimate intrusion of government.

Nowadays that would seem to make me a libertarian by default, wouldn't it? But wasn't there a time, before the Religious Right, when basic conservatism was first and foremost about personal freedom? Or am I just wearing rose-colored glasses? :)

The death penalty is a statement by the rest of society that your actions are so heinous that you don't deserve to remain a part of that society

...why people try to equate this with abortion always amazes me.

694 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:31:16pm

re: #690 Salamantis

Some things are illegal, and others may be immoral, but unlike legalities, moralities differ, depending upon who one asks.

The state must legislate legality, but should not be in the business of legislating personal morality. That should be up to individuals to decide.

Some people do not approve of homosexuality, others do not approve of abortion, others do not approve of assisted suicide for the terminally ill in intractable paralysis and pain, and still others do not approve of drinking or gambling or looking at dirty movies. They should have every right to not engage in such behaviors themselves, but they should not be able to use the state in order to forbid others from engaging in them.

Yes, and there is a line on vice and "immoral" behavior. The position of the line changes over time depending on public morays. Sometimes this is good for society and individuals, sometimes it is not.

I have a particular problem with zombie's "Up Your Alley" photo-story. I think those individuals have crossed-the-line and the society which allows such public display has also. It's the Public Display part of the activity think is over the top. (Well, the rest of it also, but I don't see any real crime in the consensual behavior).

A couple of decades ago the activity itself would have been a crime.

It's hard knowing where the line is on any given day.

695 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:32:50pm

re: #692 subsailor68

No, remember, that was what we agreed would be the movie title!

:-)

Ah! OK, I'm clear now. Must have been the Lunesta kicking in. :)

I'm onward to bed, I think, but I have to say that any thread lasting 700 comments without a meltdown, on a topic as contentious as this, says good things about all of us, and about the system Charles has created to allow this kind of discussion. My hat's off to everybody who contributed.

696 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:33:30pm

re: #689 Ian MacGregor

re :638

Salamantis, you are using a straw man. I never said a fetus was a person. Indeed I said legally it is not. Person has a legal definition. One does not count children in the womb on the census, nor can one claim one as a dependent. However they are very much human beings. If not what type of being are they?

You keep on insisting Dr. Tiller was saving women's lives. Here are the main reasons for
late term abortions

71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy

Saving the life of the mother didn't make the list. I don't know where it falls in the 11%
which is unaccounted for. Source

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yes late term abortions are rare making up 1.4% of the total. But to suggest they are mainly done to save the life of the mother is fantasy.

I am speaking of 3rd trimester abortions; the link you cite includes all abortions fom the middle of the 2nd trimester on as late term.

Only about a thousand 3rd trimester abortions are performed per year, a small percentage of those performed after mid 2nd trimester, and less than .1 % of abortions per year overall, and they are indeed constitutionally restricted to the direst of circumstances.

697 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:33:45pm

re: #693 slokat

The death penalty is a statement by the rest of society that your actions are so heinous that you don't deserve to remain a part of that society

...why people try to equate this with abortion always amazes me.

I have never seen a reason for society to pay for the upkeep of the John Wayne Gacy's of the world. The death penalty has a purpose. We just don't need to keep monsters alive among us in or out of prison.

I'm not sure it acts as a deterrent to non-psychotic criminals. So, that argument is not one I engage in.

698 sngnsgt  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:36:59pm

re: #685 ggt

My Cat Overlord is kneading my arm, but does NOT want to be petted or scratched.

Strange. The pads on his feet seem very warm.

Has he/she been outside lately? I live out in NV, a neighbor Cat and I have become buddies. She jumps up and down from and walks around the block walls in the hood, and the pads on her feet are hard dry and rough. Probably from all the roaming around in the desert. Her paws are always warm.

699 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:37:41pm

re: #693 slokat

The death penalty is a statement by the rest of society that your actions are so heinous that you don't deserve to remain a part of that society

...why people try to equate this with abortion always amazes me.

I would argue that prison is a statement by the rest of society than your actions are so heinous that you don't deserve to remain a part of that society.

The death penalty is playing God. And if society happens to have decided it wrongly, there's not the option of letting you out and apologizing.

People try to equate this with abortion because most people I know who are anti-abortion use the argument "life is sacred." And that's hypocrisy.

700 Racer X  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:37:51pm
701 tradewind  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:40:09pm

re: #681 ggt

No no no...
It's the top nine trolls, not posters...
zombie wouldn't belong in the list... maybe the top nine anti-trolls...

702 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:40:46pm

re: #698 sngnsgt

Has he/she been outside lately? I live out in NV, a neighbor Cat and I have become buddies. She jumps up and down from and walks around the block walls in the hood, and the pads on her feet are hard dry and rough. Probably from all the roaming around in the desert. Her paws are always warm.

Never goes outside. Well once he snuck out to explore, but got to the edge of the patio and then ran inside again.

703 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:41:06pm

re: #701 tradewind

No no no...
It's the top nine trolls, not posters...
zombie wouldn't belong in the list... maybe the top nine anti-trolls...

Oh, well then Nodrog.

704 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:41:07pm

re: #699 ShanghaiEd

I would argue that prison is a statement by the rest of society than your actions are so heinous that you don't deserve to remain a part of that society.

The death penalty is playing God. And if society happens to have decided it wrongly, there's not the option of letting you out and apologizing.

People try to equate this with abortion because most people I know who are anti-abortion use the argument "life is sacred." And that's hypocrisy.

If the murderer kills a prison guard or fellow inmate while incarcerated, there is also no do-over. In the case of the McVeighs, Bin Ladens, Zawahiris, Bundys, Dahmers, Gacys and Chikatilos of the world, there is no credible rational doubt that they are indeed homicidal monsters.

705 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:42:31pm

re: #697 ggt

I have never seen a reason for society to pay for the upkeep of the John Wayne Gacy's of the world. The death penalty has a purpose. We just don't need to keep monsters alive among us in or out of prison.

I'm not sure it acts as a deterrent to non-psychotic criminals. So, that argument is not one I engage in.

"Having a purpose" isn't the same as being right. And I've always thought using the term "monster" to describe a criminal is naive in the extreme.

"Nothing that is human can be alien to me." --Terence

706 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:44:20pm

re: #701 tradewind

No no no...
It's the top nine trolls, not posters...
zombie wouldn't belong in the list... maybe the top nine anti-trolls...

It depends upon the match, or mismatch, between the person and the list.

I was once expelled as a troll from an ecofeminism list because I would not agree that all men are brutal sexist world-destroying monsters.

707 Sambo  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:44:32pm

re: #705 ShanghaiEd

SE, how should criminals such as John Wayne Gacy be described?

708 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:45:07pm

re: #704 Salamantis

If the murderer kills a prison guard or fellow inmate while incarcerated, there is also no do-over. In the case of the McVeighs, Bin Ladens, Zawahiris, Bundys, Dahmers, Gacys and Chikatilos of the world, there is no credible rational doubt that they are indeed homicidal monsters.

If the death penalty is legal in the state in which the criminal committed the crime, he/she took that risk. I don't think we are "playing G-d" when known risk doesn't work in the criminal's favor.

709 subsailor68  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:45:50pm

Well all, time for bed - the bichon frise we adopted, and now call Cujo - is tired, cranky, and ready for some attention. (At least I think that's what it is - he's standing on the hood of the car and slobbering on the windshield.)

I'll just say how great it is to be a part of this community, how much I learn when I'm here, and how many things I take away when I sign off for the evening.

I truly hope everyone here has a wonderful evening, and that tomorrow is a great day for us all!

710 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:46:35pm

re: #705 ShanghaiEd

"Having a purpose" isn't the same as being right. And I've always thought using the term "monster" to describe a criminal is naive in the extreme.

"Nothing that is human can be alien to me." --Terence

Sorry, that is a line on which side I know where I stand. There are people who are monsters. We don't need them among us. We don't need to support their upkeep.

711 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:47:19pm

re: #707 Sambo

SE, how should criminals such as John Wayne Gacy be described?

He should be described with every negative term that can apply to a bloodthirsty, perverted human being without obscuring the fact that he is nonetheless a human being. Just my two cents.

712 slokat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:49:50pm

re: #699 ShanghaiEd

I would argue that prison is a statement by the rest of society than your actions are so heinous that you don't deserve to remain a part of that society.

The death penalty is playing God. And if society happens to have decided it wrongly, there's not the option of letting you out and apologizing.

People try to equate this with abortion because most people I know who are anti-abortion use the argument "life is sacred." And that's hypocrisy.

...actually, that argument would be more consistent if it favored abortion, so that people that wouldn't be trapped in their substandard bodies.

Being in prison is still a part of society, limited & controlled - yet still a living & often functioning part of society.

Most inmates desire to return to active participation with society...

713 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:49:58pm

re: #704 Salamantis

re: #710 ggt

Sal & ggt: I respect your stand. And I appreciate your respecting mine, as it's something I've given a lifetime of thought and soul-searching to. I'm sure you've done the same.

The death penalty is grist for another thread, though. I'm heading sleep-ward for now. Enjoyed talking with you both.

714 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:50:04pm

re: #711 ShanghaiEd

He should be described with every negative term that can apply to a bloodthirsty, perverted human being without obscuring the fact that he is nonetheless a human being. Just my two cents.

I think that "bloodthirsty" pretty much defines the word "monster". Human beings can be monsters.

715 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:50:21pm

re: #711 ShanghaiEd

He should be described with every negative term that can apply to a bloodthirsty, perverted human being without obscuring the fact that he is nonetheless a human being. Just my two cents.

There are some crimes that are so egregious and heinous that only the death penalty will suffice. For example, the nazis executed as a result of their Nuremburg trials.

716 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:51:57pm

re: #705 ShanghaiEd

I would respectfully disagree. I think that there are people in this world who are evil, and monsters. I don't know that they started out that way, but neither do I know that they didn't. I do know, that society is better off with out them. Whether it's a prison cell, or the death penalty, IMHO depends on the crime, and the attitude of the state, as evidenced by it's laws.

717 Sambo  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:54:21pm

re: #711 ShanghaiEd

Thank you for that definition. I was simply curious as to how you would describe such a person.

I have heard some radio talk show hosts (e.g., Michael Medved) say that we have to consider every person as inherently of infinite worth. While I recognize that you despise his actions, perhaps this is somehow related to your desire that we not lose sight of the fact that he is a human being.

718 Ian MacGregor  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:59:03pm

re: 678 ShanghaiEd.

I'm not for banning bad behavior. No one can force someone to be good, and no one is so clean they can condemn another person. If I do good, I don't want it to be because I didn't have the choice to do bad. I want it to be because I on my own or with God's help chose to do good. [Atheists can do as much good as the most devout.]

If by doing bad one enslaves himself then in choosing to do bad, you have given up your freedom. Freedom is the ability to choose to do good. Choosing to do bad is a false freedom which leads to slavery.

I agree there is the problem of who decides what is good. Unless were insane or without any moral compass whatsoever, I doubt there is that much disagreement over what is good.

Even on this topic, most would agree that saving the mother's life is good and taking the life of an unborn child is not. Also I think given a choice between the two, most would choose to save the mother.

719 slokat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 10:59:52pm
...every person as inherently of infinite worth


I do not believe that is a Jewish concept, and I know that is not a Christian concept. From where do you derive that philosophy?

/asking not attacking...

720 Sambo  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:02:08pm

re: #719 slokat

The little bit of googling I have done tonight suggest it comes from Kant. I really don't know the underlying rationale for it.

721 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:04:04pm

Although I am for the decriminalization of marijuana, I am against the decriminalization of speed, crack, and heroin, because, unlike marijuana, they are both intensely physically damaging and very physically addictive. And that very property of being physically addictive removes from their users the capacity to make and follow through on any free choice to stop using them.

722 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:05:27pm

re: #719 slokat

I do not believe that is a Jewish concept, and I know that is not a Christian concept. From where do you derive that philosophy?

/asking not attacking...

Now THAT is an interesting Google search, should you choose to do it & read the results...

723 slokat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:07:45pm

re: #720 Sambo

The little bit of googling I have done tonight suggest it comes from Kant. I really don't know the underlying rationale for it.

Cool, thanks.

I can't agree with Kant on this point.

724 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:10:31pm

weet dreams all!

725 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:10:44pm

re: #718 Ian MacGregor

re: 678 ShanghaiEd.

I'm not for banning bad behavior. No one can force someone to be good, and no one is so clean they can condemn another person. If I do good, I don't want it to be because I didn't have the choice to do bad. I want it to be because I on my own or with God's help chose to do good. [Atheists can do as much good as the most devout.]

If by doing bad one enslaves himself then in choosing to do bad, you have given up your freedom. Freedom is the ability to choose to do good. Choosing to do bad is a false freedom which leads to slavery.

I agree there is the problem of who decides what is good. Unless were insane or without any moral compass whatsoever, I doubt there is that much disagreement over what is good.

Even on this topic, most would agree that saving the mother's life is good and taking the life of an unborn child is not. Also I think given a choice between the two, most would choose to save the mother.

We do not live in a perfect world, or even a theoretically perfectable one, so, unfortunately, sometimes our life choices come down to what we deem to be least worst for us in particular situations. And such choices should be made by those who are both capable of making choices and who must suffer the consequences of those choices, regardless of which choices they make.

In the case of abortion, that would be the woman carrying the pregnancy.

726 slokat  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:18:16pm

re: #725 Salamantis

In the case of abortion, that would be the woman carrying the pregnancy.


So we return to a cyclical point, the only decision is given to that particular woman, (excluding the rights of the man involved for this argument) does she have to be responsible for all the implications?

Or the opposite question, why do I have to pay for this decision? ... and don't try to tell me that she has no freedom if I don't pay for it.

727 sngnsgt  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:22:32pm

re: #702 ggt

Never goes outside. Well once he snuck out to explore, but got to the edge of the patio and then ran inside again.

Hmm, I don't get it then. I've always Cat Overlords and never heard of this before but all of mine have been outdoor cats. I wish I could have one where I am now, landlord won't even let me keep a small animal in a cage. NO PETS!

728 Sambo  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:31:37pm

re: #719 slokat


I do not believe that is a Jewish concept, and I know that is not a Christian concept. From where do you derive that philosophy?

slokat, the following may be of interest.

[Link: bit.ly...]

People of faith may also find that it provides a way to resolve the question of "If every life is of infinite worth, how can I legitimately kill someone who is coming to kill me?"

729 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:34:15pm

re: #726 slokat

So we return to a cyclical point, the only decision is given to that particular woman, (excluding the rights of the man involved for this argument) does she have to be responsible for all the implications?

Or the opposite question, why do I have to pay for this decision? ... and don't try to tell me that she has no freedom if I don't pay for it.

I have no problem with a woman being financially responsible for her own abortion. The only case in which I would want to subsidize such a procedure is in the very rare case of a minor victim of rape or incest who has to go to court to gain the legal right to the procedure over her parents' objections. If they are opposed to her obtaining an abortion, they sure aren't gonna pay for it, and, being a minor, she very well may not have the funds to pay for it herself, but being an impregnated minor rape or an incest victim, she is most certainly entitled to it.

Abortions are performed upon women, and women give birth, so, regardless of her decision, she will of necessity assume its physical and emotional ramifications.

730 Sambo  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 11:42:02pm

Off to bed. Thanks for the discussion all.

731 SasyMomaCat  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 6:05:27am

re: #28 Last Mohican

A post limit would rule me out. I rarely post anything, mostly because I am usually late to the conversation (and, I'm sure this is a dead thread by now, so, again, I'm late). That usually means that someone else has already chimed in with a position or comment similar to where I stand and, rather than be redundant (and way late), I remain silent.

When I am not late to the conversation, it is not uncommon to see topics being discussed upon which I am not well-informed. Rather to be silent and thought a fool than to type out a comment and remove all doubt, eh?

When I'm not late to the conversation and do feel well enough informed to comment, I am usually at work. I am running the risk of "Big Brother" reprimanding me by posting to this thread, but I thought it worth the risk. Even if someone has already expressed similar sentiment, it bears repeating (IMO).

When I post, it is generally with a question (i.e., my most recent was to ask who I could trust on Twitter re: Iran). Occasionally, I will comment. Mostly, I show up and read to become better informed. It wouldn't keep me from showing up if my account was blocked due to insufficient posts, but it would be unfair.

Going back into lurking, now that I've shared my 2c ...

smc

732 SecondComing  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 6:08:10am

re: #7 zombie

Vigilanteism is among the worst of crimes, because it contributes directly to the breakdown of society. It's sort of a lesser form of treason, in a sense.

Whatever your views on any political issue, and even if you think someone is a criminal, it is not your role or your right to enforce the law or your views on anyone. Let the police and the courts do their job. And if there's nothing they can do -- then that's the way it is. "Enforcing" your version of the law only leads to anarchy.

I thought of Batman when I read this. haha

733 Land Shark  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 6:56:23am

How can somebody read what Roeder says about the murder of Dr. Tiller and not conclude the man is a terrorist? He takes pride in what he did, he freely admits a purpose, to inflict fear on abortion providers. He's made no bones about what his intentions were. Domestic terrorism indeed.

I'm opposed to abortion, but I'm just as opposed to the use of terrorism.

734 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 8:51:47am

re: #456 formercorpsman

I will admit my position up front, in that I would be considered pro-life. That being said, I accept this is a brutally tough subject, and not everything is black and white.

Seriously, and respectfully, does anyone see a contradiction in how we have applied the law in the case of someone like Scott Peterson where he was not only convicted of murdering his wife, but also of 2nd degree murder for the fetus?

I am asking the contrary opinions in earnest. I am not looking to argue.

Hi formercorpsman, good to see you. I know this thread is old but I think your question is profound and important.

You're absolutely right to notice that there is something weird and contradictory over laws involving extra charges for the murder of a pregnant woman.

This very tension has been exploited in the battle over abortion. In some states, the laws criminalise violent acts done to a pregnant woman that result in the death or loss of the fetus, and do so regardless of whether the woman dies. So the focus is harm done to the woman, and the idea is that if a man assaults a woman and she has a miscarriage as a result, he should be punished more harshly than he would be for the same assault on a non-pregnant woman. The pregnant woman sustained additional harm.

In other states, the focus is less on the violence or harm done, but on the idea that the fetus itself has rights which are violated. This is a strategy used by anti-choice people-- once we introduce (and enshrine in law) the notion that the fetus has a right to live, (rather than having laws that focus on a woman's right to carry it to term), it's the beginning of establishing a precedent that could lead to criminalising abortion. Others worry that such a precedent would also be used to punish pregnant women who smoke, or drink, or take drugs, or otherwise engage in behaviour that could harm the fetus. (this isn't a far-out worry; there have already been laws and judicial decisions that do this).

Finally, to complicate matters further, pregnancy is the number one risk factor for homicide (statistically) for women 18-30. (I may have the age range wrong on the top end. Might be 34). I can dig up a link but it comes from the FBI's annual Violent Crime Report stats. Statistically speaking, if you're a pregnant woman your odds of being murdered jump through the roof. This isn't because you're more likely to be assaulted by strangers, but because husbands and boyfriends murder their pregnant wives, girlfriends, mistresses. I think this also motivates some of the legislation on both sides.

This link will give a breakdown of all the laws by state, and will also summarise the legal thinking behind the different kinds of laws and how it connects to the abortion debate on both sides.

[Link: www.ncsl.org...]

Hope this helps.

cheers, iDub

735 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 8:59:58am

re: #734 iceweasel

Oh I should add--more germaine to your original question-- the intent of the mother to carry it to term doesn't matter. You have to look at the individual laws. Some will only criminalise violent acts resulting in the death of a late term fetus; some criminalise any violent acts that will kill or harm the fetus at any stage. In some states, consequently, it won't matter whether the woman intended to go through with the pregnancy at all, or even knew if she was pregnant.

The central legal issues (broadly speaking) as it applies to the abortion debate involve whether the rationale for such laws is additional harm done to the woman, or attributing rights to the fetus itself.

But many of the states have logically incoherent and inconsistent laws about it. I don't know the history of challenges to such laws by a defendant; sorry about that.

736 medaura18586  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 9:02:16am

re: #734 iceweasel

Good analysis. Roughly speaking, if the woman decides to carry the fetus to term and there are no reasons to assume the baby wouldn't have been born (barring unforeseeable and rare circumstances, such as birth complications or a miscarriage) then you can reasonably treat the fetus as a future human being. That's not because of the fetus's inherent rights to life, but because the mother's choice to carry it to term and to properly care for it in the meanwhile render babyhood by far the likeliest outcome for the fetus. So the woman would be justified to feel as though the baby she was about to have has been murdered.

I am radically and vehemently pro-choice, but I don't think there is anything subversive about the laws exacting harsher punishment on people who, through abusing a pregnant woman, cause her to lose her fetus. The rationale employed though, I agree could be subverted by the pro-life wackos.

737 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 9:03:20am

Oops-- i said

So the focus is harm done to the woman, and the idea is that if a man assaults a woman and she has a miscarriage as a result, he should be punished more harshly than he would be for the same assault on a non-pregnant woman.

Sorry about that. Some of these assaults are carried out by women, of course, and the law doesn't treat them differently than a male perpetrator. I used 'man' because in reality these assaults are almost always carried out by men, but I shouldn't have. Women do it too.

738 bobbuck  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 9:04:50am

re: #266 abbyadams

You just have to keep in mind that this is a big country and if only 1% of a group that's a third of the country is nuts, it's still a million people.

739 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 9:10:04am

re: #736 medaura18586

Good analysis. Roughly speaking, if the woman decides to carry the fetus to term and there are no reasons to assume the baby wouldn't have been born (barring unforeseeable and rare circumstances, such as birth complications or a miscarriage) then you can reasonably treat the fetus as a future human being. That's not because of the fetus's inherent rights to life, but because the mother's choice to carry it to term and to properly care for it in the meanwhile render babyhood by far the likeliest outcome for the fetus. So the woman would be justified to feel as though the baby she was about to have has been murdered.

I am radically and vehemently pro-choice, but I don't think there is anything subversive about the laws exacting harsher punishment on people who, through abusing a pregnant woman, cause her to lose her fetus. The rationale employed though, I agree could be subverted by the pro-life wackos.

Right, I agree with you. Interestingly, legally speaking the woman's intent isn't what's at issue. What's at issue is the likelihood of the fetus being born. Consequently some of the enacted laws talk only about third trimester, most likely to kind of slide in between the issues of "almost a person" and "mother's intent". By the third trimester the woman is planning on carrying the pregnancy to term, and late in the third trimester the fetus is viable.

I'd also agree that subjectively speaking, I don't have an issue with those laws...but they are being used by the anti-choice movement as part of a strategy to criminalise abortion. Consequently the specific legal rationale for those laws matters very much: whether it's based in harm to the woman, or bestows 'rights' on the fetus. The first privileges women's rights; the second does not.

740 OneGod  Tue, Jul 28, 2009 12:34:36pm

re: #734 iceweasel

Hi formercorpsman, good to see you. I know this thread is old but I think your question is profound and important.

You're absolutely right to notice that there is something weird and contradictory over laws involving extra charges for the murder of a pregnant woman.

...snip...
cheers, iDub

I believe these kinds of charges (or non-charges as the case may be) are more consistent if you view it through the lens of "wantedness". If the parent or parents wanted the child (like Lacy Peterson did) then, in general, a charge is filed. If the parents don't want the child and they abort it in some fashion (via clinic or injury) then no charges are filed.

That is especially consistent when you consider that abortion has always been about "wantedness". Is this child wanted by the mother or not? We have decided, as a society, that a fetus' civil rights depend upon its "wantedness". Don't you agree?


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