Krauthammer: A Better Plan for Health Care Reform

Health • Views: 3,792

There goes Charles Krauthammer making sense again: A Better Plan for Health-Care Reform.

The administration’s defense is to accuse critics of being for the status quo. Nonsense. Candidate John McCain and a host of other Republicans since have offered alternatives. Let me offer mine: Strip away current inefficiencies before remaking one-sixth of the U.S. economy. The plan is so simple it doesn’t even have the requisite three parts. Just two: radical tort reform and radically severing the link between health insurance and employment.

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238 comments
1 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:48:30am

Clearly that couldn't work under the new administration.

It makes sense.

2 vxbush  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:49:26am

ERISA law controls health insurance as an employee benefit. Such law would have to be repealed and/or modified to indicate that we are severing health care and employment. That forces people to find the plans they want instead of being forced into a plan they don't want.

3 VioletTiger  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:49:46am

Krauthammer is a master of logic. He is able to get his point across with relatively few words, and does not rely on heavily partisan attacks.
We need more like him.

4 Baier  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:50:44am

The Hammer strikes again!

5 Rexatosis  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:52:03am

Krauthammer went to medical school, how can he have any ideas about reforming Health Care. Everyone knows only lawyers and community activists can reform the system.///

6 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:52:12am

Dr. Krauthammer should be a czar.

7 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:52:55am

Since it's the WaPo, there'll be plenty of user comments there about Zionism, Bushitler, etc., etc.

8 Syrah  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:52:57am

Is it about reforming the health care system, or about accruing more power to politicians and bureaucrats?

9 pat  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:53:37am

This seems a bit fishy. Refer to Whie House.

10 latingent  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:55:06am

Common sense is an uncommon virtue. This man makes too much sense to be taken seriously by any of our current leaders.

11 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:55:12am

I wish I could remember the congressmans name, but he was being interviewed on one of the sunday shows several weeks ago. To paraphrase, he was being asked about how they were going to pay for all of this.

He stated that AFTER the new bill was passed the 1st thing Congress would do was look into where health ins. cost waste was. He estimated that it was in the Billions


BILLIONS

AFTER

(I'll let that marinate around in your brains then repeat)

BILLIONS

AFTER

12 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:55:46am
The plan is so simple it doesn’t even have the requisite three parts. Just two: radical tort reform and radically severing the link between health insurance and employment.

If we ever got real tort reform, I would believe in Santa Clause again.

13 davinvalkri  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:56:13am

If Obama were smart, he'd pick Krauthammer as a personal advisor--sort of as his Rove figure.

14 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:56:16am

re: #5 Rexatosis

Krauthammer went to medical school, how can he have any ideas about reforming Health Care. Everyone knows only lawyers and community activists can reform the system.///

check AND mate

IIRC, he's not only a DOCTOR, but a LAWYER also

15 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:56:26am

re: #11 sattv4u2

I wish I could remember the congressmans name, but he was being interviewed on one of the sunday shows several weeks ago. To paraphrase, he was being asked about how they were going to pay for all of this.

He stated that AFTER the new bill was passed the 1st thing Congress would do was look into where health ins. cost waste was. He estimated that it was in the Billions


BILLIONS

AFTER

(I'll let that marinate around in your brains then repeat)

BILLIONS


AFTER

Yeah, I routinely run up huge bills, and worry about how to pay for them afterwards.

/or not

16 Noah's Arrrgh  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:56:26am

First: Exactly!

Second: This is not very far off from the counter-proposal that the Republicans had when HillaryCare was being proposed. Of course, it was rejected by the Left as being too feeble, and of course, it would have boosted enrollment in private HMOs, which the Left was railing hard against during the 90s,.

Of course, when Obama proposes what amounts to a government run HMO on steroids, that's supposed to be good. Can someone explain that to me?!?

17 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:56:58am

re: #11 sattv4u2

I wish I could remember the congressmans name, but he was being interviewed on one of the sunday shows several weeks ago. To paraphrase, he was being asked about how they were going to pay for all of this.

He stated that AFTER the new bill was passed the 1st thing Congress would do was look into where health ins. cost waste was. He estimated that it was in the Billions


BILLIONS

AFTER

(I'll let that marinate around in your brains then repeat)

BILLIONS

AFTER

HURRY UP AND PASS IT OR WERE ALL GONNA DIE!

18 cartoonboy  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:57:02am

Proponents of the healthcare bill focus more on demonizing opponents than on explaining the reforms' merits.

19 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:57:04am
20 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:57:14am
21 davinvalkri  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:57:34am

re: #20 buzzsawmonkey

It is always best to cut the Gordian Knot, but the Democrats prefer to build a greater and greater knot, like an entire Boy Scout troop practicing knot-tying under the influence of LSD.

...nice simile.

22 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:58:14am

When the 'Hammer comes down, a lot of bullshit arguments are smashed into little bits.

23 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:58:15am

30 years ago..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Give it rest and ice it several times a day.

Nowadays..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Hmm, Lets schedule an MRI. Your insurance will cover it.

24 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:59:36am

re: #8 Syrah

Is it about reforming the health care system, or about accruing more power to politicians and bureaucrats?

The progressives health care proposals are nothing short of a first step into controlling multiple aspects of your life. We see it in Britain, with "food police" who can actually visit your home and do an audit of what kinds of food you keep in your pantry.

This will be the stepping stone to telling automobile manufacturers what kind of cars to make, sighting health concerns of emissions. The same thing will happen to manufacturing firms, the government will be able to almost totally control a firms product outputs. Establishments that serve food will come under certain food laws and so on.

We've seen this is a slip-shod manner already, but giving the government this much control over health care will be the big in they need to wrap up all these concepts into one big central point of control.

That's why the progressives need to get the public option out of the picture.

Wanna bet?

25 Danny  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:00:09am

"Socialize the risk; cut out the trial lawyers."

That'll never happen with a democrat lawyer as president and DNC-controlled congress beholden to ATLA.

26 cartoonboy  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:00:27am

Obamacare: the trillion dollar pain killer.

27 jamgarr  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:01:22am

re: #20 buzzsawmonkey

It is always best to cut the Gordian Knot, but the Democrats prefer to build a greater and greater knot, like an entire Boy Scout troop practicing knot-tying under the influence of LSD.

Ahhh. The good ol' days!

28 Buster  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:01:33am

The Hammer hits the nail again. True tort reform, and placing the consumer of health care in control of their care, is the answer.

Too bad the politicians won't give up the power that comes from the vast sums of money they receive from trial lawyers, and from controlling the destinies and playing on the fears of their constituents.

29 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:01:39am

Interesting ideas...


(1) Tort reform:
...
The pool would be funded by a relatively small tax on all health-insurance premiums. Socialize the risk; cut out the trial lawyers. Would that immunize doctors from carelessness or negligence? No. The penalty would be losing your medical license. There is no more serious deterrent than forfeiting a decade of intensive medical training and the livelihood that comes with it.


Sadly these ideas won't fly with thefrothing Tea Party mobs who are disrupting town hall meetings. They wouldn't stand for it as a matter of principle.
It;s one thing to have reasonable alternatives but it's another to have those ideas accepted. The conservative base wouldn't go for it.

30 littleoldlady  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:01:40am

I wish Krauthammer would run for office.

/then I'd have some to vote FOR instead of my usual AGAINST vote...

31 BlueCanuck  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:01:58am

re: #26 cartoonboy

Obamacare: the trillion dollar pain killer.

FTFY, because it will aide in killing the economy.

32 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:02:23am

re: #23 Mich-again

30 years ago..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Give it rest and ice it several times a day.

Nowadays..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Hmm, Lets schedule an MRI. Your insurance will cover it.

Tomorrow
Patient; Doc, my elbow hurts
Doctor: Elbow you say? Please fill out long forms 3, 7, 11, 36, 58, 72, 94, 112 (parts A,B, D, F, AND Q, only). Submit all except 11, 72 and 94 to the SMALL JOINT ADMINISTRATION. The other forms go to the BONE COVERED BY SKIN Dept. Once you have a claim number for each form submitted, take all the paperwork in triplicate to your local HSB (Health Service Bureau). Take a number there and someone will get back to you in under 18 months,
After that ,,,

33 Ben Hur  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:02:52am

He's obviously on the some insurance lobby payroll...

34 Spider Mensch  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:02:57am

health care reform is like a car that just needs a tune up... the problem is obama is like the mechanic who instead of giving the car a basic tune up wants to pull out the old engine and put in a new one, and add in new tires, and a muffler system you don't need.

35 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:03:06am

Drudge links to articles this morning about the town hall disruptions turning violent. Mentions of Glenn Beck fans. No surprise.

36 S'latch  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:03:07am

"radical tort reform"

Ha, ha! Good luck with that! (Silly rabbit.)

37 Ben Hur  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:03:37am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Drudge links to articles this morning about the town hall disruptions turning violent. Mentions of Glenn Beck fans. No surprise.

Unreal.

Those guys beating up black people.

38 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:03:39am
39 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:04:26am
40 Baier  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:04:51am

re: #34 Spider Mensch

health care reform is like a car that just needs a tune up... the problem is obama is like the mechanic who instead of giving the car a basic tune up wants to pull out the old engine and put in a new one, and add in new tires, and a muffler system you don't need.

Obama is the type of mechanic that would tell you to scrap the whole car and get a new one. See Cash for Clunkers as evidence.

41 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:05:02am

re: #20 buzzsawmonkey

It is always best to cut the Gordian Knot, but the Democrats prefer to build a greater and greater knot, like an entire Boy Scout troop practicing knot-tying under the influence of LSD.

Where's Alexander when you need him...

42 Danny  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:05:44am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Also mentions democrat-supporting union thugs. No surprise.

43 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:05:56am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Drudge links to articles this morning about the town hall disruptions turning violent. Mentions of Glenn Beck fans. No surprise.

No meetings had turned violent until
A) Union members were told to attend as a counter balance to the people questioning why we need this
and
B) The white house told supporters to "punch twice as hard"
[Link: www.politico.com...]

44 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:05:57am

re: #39 taxfreekiller

change the subject kt

He can't. It always comes back to the TP's.

45 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:06:17am

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

This will be the stepping stone to telling automobile manufacturers what kind of cars to make, sighting health concerns of emissions.

I'm more concerned about the 35,000 or more people who get killed every year in car accidents. The death toll from the emissions is nowhere near that number.

46 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:07:40am

re: #43 sattv4u2

I'm still getting caught up with the story.

47 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:07:54am

re: #38 taxfreekiller

Democrats are selling fear. Keep it simple.

Absolutely. National Health sCare.

48 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:08:10am

re: #45 Mich-again

I'm more concerned about the 35,000 or more people who get killed every year in car accidents. The death toll from the emissions is nowhere near that number.

The only people that have ever dies from exhaust emissions are those that wrapped their own lips around their own tailpipe

49 dwells38  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:08:21am

Clearly his ideas can't work because they don't include power grabs, government expansion, wealth redistribution or audacious payoffs to cronies.

50 Buster  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:08:34am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Drudge links to articles this morning about the town hall disruptions turning violent. Mentions of Glenn Beck fans. No surprise.

Drudge also mentions the White House ordering Dems to hit back "twice as hard" and the employment of Unions to pack the meetings and keep dissenters out

51 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:08:41am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Drudge links to articles this morning about the town hall disruptions turning violent. Mentions of Glenn Beck fans. No surprise.

And, in due respect to bipartisanship, a link to some Obama fans disruptions turning violent.

[Link: www.denverpost.com...]

52 jill e  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:08:57am

The saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" comes to mind.

53 jill e  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:09:23am

And my father's favorite: "Don't cut off your nose to spit your face."

54 LionOfDixon  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:09:52am

But...but...how do we shower the taxpayer's money on the special interest groups that got Obama coronated? How do we continue on our lurch toward socialism? Obviously, this plan will never fly...

55 CommonCents  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:09:58am

All this Obamacare chatter makes me want to get out my tuxedo and Nazi paraphernalia and go stalk a town hall meeting. It's going to be a fun weekend.
///

56 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:10:19am

re: #45 Mich-again

I'm more concerned about the 35,000 or more people who get killed every year in car accidents. The death toll from the emissions is nowhere near that number.

Somewhere (probably here), I read that CAFE standards were already causing an additional 2000 traffic deaths per year. That's one statistic you'll never hear the enviro-wackos quoting. Now, how many more once we're forced into the tiny cars that Government Motors is going to be forced to manufacture?

57 albusteve  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:10:36am

don't bite the hand that feeds you...the govt is a notorious biter

58 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:10:49am

re: #50 Buster

Drudge also mentions the White House ordering Dems to hit back "twice as hard" and the employment of Unions to pack the meetings and keep dissenters out


Disgruntled unemployed union members no less. Lots of them sitting around looking for anyone (besides their heroes in the WH and Congress) to blame for their predicament.

59 quickjustice  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:10:50am

McCain proposed this during his presidential campaign. It was by far the smartest and best policy McCain proposed.

60 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:11:00am

re: #20 buzzsawmonkey

It is always best to cut the Gordian Knot, but the Democrats prefer to build a greater and greater knot, like an entire Boy Scout troop practicing knot-tying under the influence of LSD.

REAL lefties hate the Boy Scouts. The Scouts are bigots.

/

61 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:11:07am

re: #43 sattv4u2

No meetings had turned violent until
A) Union members were told to attend as a counter balance to the people questioning why we need this
and
B) The white house told supporters to "punch twice as hard"
[Link: www.politico.com...]

Uh ... the "punch back twice as hard" line is not even remotely about hitting demonstrators. From the context of the article, it's clear he's talking metaphorically about hitting back at "critics of the Democratic plan."

62 SteveC  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:12:15am

re: #23 Mich-again

30 years ago..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Give it rest and ice it several times a day.

Nowadays..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Hmm, Lets schedule an MRI. Your insurance will cover it.

Football coach, either era:

*ass slap* Walk it off!

63 apachegunner  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:12:44am

re: #61 Charles

Uh ... the "punch back twice as hard" line is not even remotely about hitting demonstrators. From the context of the article, it's clear he's talking metaphorically about hitting back at "critics of the Democratic plan."

to bad the union thugs don't read your blog, guess it would be best to tell them huh?

64 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:13:01am

re: #61 Charles

Uh ... the "punch back twice as hard" line is not even remotely about hitting demonstrators. From the context of the article, it's clear he's talking metaphorically about hitting back at "critics of the Democratic plan."

That it is. But as we (rightly) condemn the words of Beck, O'Reilly et al for "enciting" the mob for their words ("Tiller the Baby Killer",,,etc) should we not also condemn these words?

65 davesax  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:13:02am

Why are Krauthammer and other Republicans so angry?

66 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:13:15am
radically severing the link between health insurance and employment

My employer would probably LOVE that.

67 dwells38  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:13:38am

re: #43 sattv4u2

Yes from some of the accounts and videos I've seen this morning they took that punching back thing a little too literally.

68 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:14am
69 SteveC  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:14am

re: #67 dwells38

Yes from some of the accounts and videos I've seen this morning they took that punching back thing a little too literally.

Kids these days, what can you do?

//

70 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:28am

re: #43 sattv4u2

No meetings had turned violent until
A) Union members were told to attend as a counter balance to the people questioning why we need this
and
B) The white house told supporters to "punch twice as hard"
[Link: www.politico.com...]

The union members are just showing up to make sure all protest signs are union-made.
Wouldn't want any scabs protesting; it's a union job.
Remember, always look for the union label on your protest sign.
It is a symbol of quality and government approval.
You wouldn't want to be reported to the White House, now, would you?
///

71 Spider Mensch  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:34am

I wonder if any of the unions at these gatherings are UAW?? probably not, those are a compassionate group, history tells us so..for instance this classic pphoto from LIFE magazine..Image: 8747.preview.jpg

union workers have a history of non violence...

72 quickjustice  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:46am

My own idea, similar to Krauthammer's: Replace the current tort system for medical malpractice with a workers compensation-style system to compensate victims of medical errors, linked to a feedback loop to improve patient safety.

And HSAs and high deductible insurance for the self-employed, enacted by the Republicans, which the Democrats propose to end, was the first step towards ending employer-based health plans, and replacing them with portable insurance.

73 Danny  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:48am

re: #70 Kosh's Shadow

LOL

74 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:49am

And why should the cost of family coverage be the same for a single parent with one child as it is for a couple with six kids?

75 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:50am

re: #56 Son of the Black Dog

Now, how many more once we're forced into the tiny cars that Government Motors is going to be forced to manufacture?

True. To meet the new CAFE regulations cars will have to be lighter and less powerful. It is possible to make a small car safe, but it will require roll cages, 5 point belts and helmets for all the passengers. Probably no doors eother, you'll have to climb through the window. When I get mine, I'm going to paint logos all over it and put a big number 13 on the hood.

76 Kragar  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:14:53am

re: #65 davesax

Why are Krauthammer and other Republicans so angry?

Probably has something to do with the failed policies of Obama's predecessor.

/

77 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:15:11am

re: #61 Charles

Uh ... the "punch back twice as hard" line is not even remotely about hitting demonstrators. From the context of the article, it's clear he's talking metaphorically about hitting back at "critics of the Democratic plan."

This from Mr. "Lipstick on a pig", plausible deniability.

78 Baier  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:15:41am

re: #74 Son of the Black Dog

And why should the cost of family coverage be the same for a single parent with one child as it is for a couple with six kids?

Coverage should be based on need, not use///

79 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:15:59am

re: #68 buzzsawmonkey

It's because the Scouts still refuse to offer a merit badge for circle jerks.

The only "person" I have ever seen sum up the situation in a sensible manner was Big Gay Al of South Park.

80 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:16:13am
81 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:16:21am

re: #53 jill e

And my father's favorite: "Don't cut off your nose to spit your face."

Someone should have told that to Michael Jackson.

82 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:16:52am
83 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:17:58am

re: #74 Son of the Black Dog

And why should the cost of family coverage be the same for a single parent with one child as it is for a couple with six kids?

Why should "rich" people be charged more to help pay for "poor" people?

Why should "well" people be charged more to pay for "chronically ill" people?

84 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:18:06am

re: #71 Spider Mensch

I wonder if any of the unions at these gatherings are UAW?? probably not, those are a compassionate group, history tells us so..for instance this classic pphoto from LIFE magazine..[Link: www.reuther.wayne.edu...]

union workers have a history of non violence...

Just ask Jimmy Hoffa.

85 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:18:21am

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

I remember seeing the show, but can't remember what Big Gay Al said.

Summary

86 Henchman Ghazi-808  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:18:28am

Anybody getttin their nirth on today?

Every time I get busy toiling for capitalist pigs something exciting happens!

87 calcajun  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:18:37am

re: #65 davesax

Why are Krauthammer and other Republicans so angry?

I say, stand up Charlie and take a bow!///

Cruel--but I'm channeling my inner Biden.

88 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:18:42am

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

I remember seeing the show, but can't remember what Big Gay Al said.

It's too long to quote, but in essence he regretted the Scouts' position on homosexual scoutmasters but respected their right to it.

89 dwells38  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:18:45am

re: #61 Charles

Naturally but after your President says go punch back twice as hard against those attacking us it seems inevitable certain zealous types are going to misinterpret that as a nod and wink to let 'em have it. And that has happened today.

I don't think it's a coincidence that all the union members I've seen suddenly at these meetings are all men and not small men.

90 quickjustice  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:18:52am

re: #61 Charles

Respectfully, Charles:

In response to the President's "metaphor", SEIU dispatches union thugs to beat up opponents of Obamacare at district Town Hall Meetings. In ST. Louis, on SEIU member was arrested.

Maybe the President meant peacefully pushing back against opponents of his plan-- or maybe he didn't. Isn't how his words are interpreted and implemented by his own supporters, union members among others, the most important thing? Is the president calling for restraint? Or is he waiting for tensions and violence to escalate?

91 Jack Burton  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:19:13am

re: #65 davesax

Why are Krauthammer and other Republicans so angry?

We need a new direction from the failed policies of the last 8 months.

92 redstateredneck  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:19:15am

re: #87 calcajun

I say, stand up Charlie and take a bow!///

Cruel--but I'm channeling my inner Biden.

"God love ya'!"

93 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:19:47am

Best CK column in a long time. Constructive.

But as someone rather skeptical about the average quality in today's health care system, I cringe a bit at:

to fix our extremely high-quality (but inefficient and therefore expensive) health-care system

But, I suppose the quality of the system is not much on the table right now, so I should grin and bear it.

I'm not sure I entirely follow the logic of worrying about the employer-insurance linkage. Sure it's a socialist anachronism, and I haven't been on a corporate health-care plan in twenty years, so I'm all for the deductability ... BUT, so what? Corporations are efficient consumers. I'm just pissed that they get one rate and as an independent I pay a much higher one. That's loosely connected to the employer-plan business, but only loosely.

94 Kolya  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:20:11am

OT Sorry:

Maybe we got Baitullah Mehsud, and now maybe Noordin Top in Indonesia. This could be a great couple of days (if both stories hold up).

[Link: blog.taragana.com...]

95 Kragar  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:20:17am

re: #87 calcajun

I say, stand up Charlie and take a bow!///

Cruel--but I'm channeling my inner Biden.

Gird your loins!

96 Henchman Ghazi-808  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:20:22am

re: #65 davesax

Why are Krauthammer and other Republicans so angry?

Why do you say Kraut is angry, as if it matters?

97 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:21:02am

re: #61 Charles

Uh ... the "punch back twice as hard" line is not even remotely about hitting demonstrators. From the context of the article, it's clear he's talking metaphorically about hitting back at "critics of the Democratic plan."

I have no doubt that the President didn't mean punch back in the literal sense. But to many of the goons in the union who follow him slavishly, they may be too stupid to realize that he wasn't being literal. After all, a good deal of union "organizing involves actual violence or the threat of violence. So maybe the POTUS needs to make it clear to his own people what he actually meant.

98 turn  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:21:02am

dang, that does make sense. I wish we could get this guy elected POTUS.

99 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:21:35am

re: #85 SixDegrees

Timmy, when I tell you to do something, you do it!

Timmy, don't make me k... kick you ass!

CRIPPLE FIGHT!!!

100 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:21:40am

what's sauce for the Beck is sauce for the One

101 SurferDoc  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:22:03am

Anyone who isn't at least a little bit angry hasn't been paying attention.

102 StillAMarine  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:22:09am

re: #12 Sharmuta

Yeah. Especially since many (or perhaps even most?) of the Democrats in Congress either are trial lawyers or are closely tied to trial lawyers. They seem to be the most rapacious, devious, and dishonest people on the planet.

103 zelnaga  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:22:18am

To quote wikipedia.org, "re: #23 Mich-again

30 years ago..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Give it rest and ice it several times a day.

Nowadays..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Hmm, Lets schedule an MRI. Your insurance will cover it.

If one were to take Michael Moore's documentary Sicko at face value, one would think that insurance companies would deny all frivolous claims, including the one in your example, and that as such, tort reform would do little to lower health care costs. Of course, wikipedia.org's article on Tort reform seems to suggest otherwise...

104 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:22:51am

re: #83 OldLineTexan

Why should "rich" people be charged more to help pay for "poor" people?

Why should "well" people be charged more to pay for "chronically ill" people?

Around here property taxes pay for all your municipal services. Everyone gets their garbage picked up once a week and police and fire department protection, but the people with more expensive homes pay more for the same services.

Imagine if the cashier at McDonalds had to ask you how much your home was worth before he could tell you how much the Big Mac was going to cost you.

105 Spider Mensch  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:23:06am

oh I get it!! he meant " hit back twice as hard" but in a peaceful way..keep it in context people..like he said the "cambridge police acted stupidly".. everyone says that people are stupid before they know the facts..again context...

another case of our leader..open mouth, insert foot..repeat as necessary.

106 redstateredneck  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:23:34am

re: #104 Mich-again

Around here property taxes pay for all your municipal services. Everyone gets their garbage picked up once a week and police and fire department protection, but the people with more expensive homes pay more for the same services.

Imagine if the cashier at McDonalds had to ask you how much your home was worth before he could tell you how much the Big Mac was going to cost you.


Ours is tied to the water bill.

107 calcajun  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:24:12am

re: #100 OldLineTexan

OK-- as someone who is hankering for BBQ, I cannot tell you the nauseating images that line produced. Thanks for killing my appetite. ///

108 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:24:23am

Krauthammer is a solution oriented guy. He's hit upon the only real way to improve health care coverage. I've argued for something similar for quite a while... and a few threads ago, as well. The real strength of this comes from eliminating medicare, medicaid, VA hospitals, etc because the people in those outrageously expensive and inefficient programs would buy into a private insurance plan with their check/voucher from the government. They'd get better care cheaper than they do now, which helps pay for the system.

109 Pianobuff  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:24:38am

Well I knew it would come to this. Now there are some mob pictures that, once the media does its job and starts spreading the news, will disarm the opposition to Obamacare. Crap.

110 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:24:40am

re: #94 Kolya

OT Maybe we got Baitullah Mehsud, and now maybe Noordin Top in Indonesia. This could be a great couple of days (if both stories hold up).

There is something extremely satisfying about plinking off the Taliban guys with Predators, like turning an evil genie loose against these bloodthirsty intentionally primitive savages.

Not to mention, Donald Rumsfield would be proud.

Show them bastids what asymmetric warfare is all about!

111 Kragar  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:24:52am

re: #105 Spider Mensch

oh I get it!! he meant " hit back twice as hard" but in a peaceful way..keep it in context people..like he said the "cambridge police acted stupidly".. everyone says that people are stupid before they know the facts..again context...

another case of our leader..open mouth, insert foot..repeat as necessary.

Its meant to be a peaceful inner pushing back twice as hard

112 turn  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:24:56am

re: #3 VioletTiger

Krauthammer is a master of logic. He is able to get his point across with relatively few words, and does not rely on heavily partisan attacks.
We need more like him.

Exactly VT.

113 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:25:01am

Banning (or simply taxing) medical insurance as an employment benefit would completely change the dynamics of the health care market place.

It would create cost pressures on providers and turn ordinary folks into careful buyers of insurance (rather than simply let the company do it, and bitch about the lack of choices).

Simply make that change and you would see new innovations as the old paradigm dies and a new one takes hold.

114 lostlakehiker  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:25:24am

Krauthammer, of course, has medical training, all the way to MD. But the Democrats don't want to reform the health care system in the U.S. For them, the worse things get, the better, because what they want is to take it over. If it's fixed, or partly fixed, that makes it harder to sell the radical "cure".

If they get control, they can take a cut of the proceeds, but more importantly, they can forge a new relationship between citizen and State: do as you're told, vote as you're told, or suffer the consequences. States and towns that vote wrong won't get that hospital, that clinic, or an adequate budget.

This plan, in any of its variants, if enacted, will be a big step toward the HugoChavezization of the country.

115 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:25:45am

re: #65 davesax

Why are Krauthammer and other Republicans so angry?

Are you missing a sarc tag? I don't want to down-ding you inappropriately.

116 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:26:03am

I think the smartest thing the Dems could do is cancel the town hall meetings. Hand the protesters a victory. It's pointless to hold these shouting matches and people are starting to get hurt. They're going to pass a bill anyways, we'll just have to wait and see what's in it.

117 redstateredneck  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:26:11am

re: #108 NukeAtomrod

Krauthammer is a solution oriented guy. He's hit upon the only real way to improve health care coverage. I've argued for something similar for quite a while... and a few threads ago, as well. The real strength of this comes from eliminating medicare, medicaid, VA hospitals, etc because the people in those outrageously expensive and inefficient programs would buy into a private insurance plan with their check/voucher from the government. They'd get better care cheaper than they do now, which helps pay for the system.

McCain was for privatising veteran's health care.

118 jantjepietje  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:26:13am

This is sort of the way we have it in the Netherlands employer based healthcare doesn't exist all health insurance is purchased by the individual. Regulations are extremely strict, discriminating on pre existing conditions is illegal etc
However we also have the AWBZ witch is basically a government tax for uninsurable health problems witch is 10% of the income with a maximum of 3000, now it is true that a lot of the AWBZ is being wasted some for of government interfering is unavoidable if the goal is to insure everyone in society.

off topic
Advertisers dump Glenn Beck

Three companies who run ads during Glenn Beck -- NexisLexis-owned Lawyers.com, Proctor & Gamble and Progressive Insurance -- today distanced themselves from Beck. LexisNexis has pulled its advertising from Beck and says it has no plans to advertise on the program in the future. Both Proctor & Gamble and Progressive Insurance called the Beck advertising placements an error that they would correct.

The decision by the three companies comes as over 45,000 ColorofChange.org members call on advertisers to pull their ads from Glenn Beck after the controversial news host called President Obama a "racist" who "has a deep-seated hatred for white people" on "Fox & Friends" last week.

"Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention," said John Michaels, Senior Communications Manager at LexisNexis in an email to ColorOfChange.org. "We have suspended further advertising during Mr. Beck's program."

119 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:26:35am

re: #102 StillAMarine

Yeah. Especially since many (or perhaps even most?) of the Democrats in Congress either are trial lawyers or are closely tied to trial lawyers. They seem to be the most rapacious, devious, and dishonest people on the planet.

And yet the electorate continues to vote for such people.

We need health care reform, but until the 800 pound gorilla is confronted, it's all side show.

120 UncleRancher  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:26:47am

Gorbachev brought a new era of communication between the USSR and the rest of the world. The problem is and was, he was still a communist.

That's the problem with health "insurance". It is not a free market society item. The problems with health care will continue until the insurance connection with doctoring is abolished. This means all third party payment schemes, malpractice and product liability are eliminated from the system. Replace malpractice layering with a simple two-strikes rule that permanently pulls the license if a doctor does permanent injury to a patient twice in a ten year period. Adjust the charge rates to reflect the savings. Everybody pays their own bills. Eliminate huge buildings full of people taking your money and doling some of it out to pay your doctor bills. Pay them yourself from a medical savings account that you accumulated tax-free. Again adjust the charge rates to reflect the savings. Eliminate the personnel overhead at the hospitals and doctors offices necessary to collect payments from myriad insurance providers and government agencies. Again reduce the charge rates to reflect the savings.

There I fixed it for ya.


Now the problems are fixed.

121 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:26:58am

re: #104 Mich-again

Around here property taxes pay for all your municipal services. Everyone gets their garbage picked up once a week and police and fire department protection, but the people with more expensive homes pay more for the same services.

Imagine if the cashier at McDonalds had to ask you how much your home was worth before he could tell you how much the Big Mac was going to cost you.

There's the point. Insurance by definition is a POOL of money that exists and pays more to the injured member than the uninjured member.

If the pool has different levels of INPUT, it should have different levels of OUTPUT.

I pay MORE for my insurance (employer-sponsored) than a single person. However, they do not take into account how many are in my family. By definition this is UNFAIR.

However, no one in my family USES the benefits to the extent that some single people I know personally do. That is also UNFAIR.

Now what? Is EVERYTHING broken? Not in my experience, and I continue to pay more for my INSURANCE to INSURE me against catastrophic losses that MIGHT HAPPEN.

My property insurance (and probably yours) skyrocketed after Hurrican Andrew. I have no home in Florida ...

I hope the point is clearer.

122 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:27:05am
123 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:27:11am

re: #64 sattv4u2

That it is. But as we (rightly) condemn the words of Beck, O'Reilly et al for "enciting" the mob for their words ("Tiller the Baby Killer",,,etc) should we not also condemn these words?

If he had intended the remark to apply to demonstrators, I would condemn it. Surely you see the difference between this and "Tiller the baby killer?"

124 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:27:17am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I think the smartest thing the Dems could do is cancel the town hall meetings. Hand the protesters a victory. It's pointless to hold these shouting matches and people are starting to get hurt. They're going to pass a bill anyways, we'll just have to wait and see what's in it.

So much for "transparancy"!

125 albusteve  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:27:27am

re: #109 Pianobuff

Well I knew it would come to this. Now there are some mob pictures that, once the media does its job and starts spreading the news, will disarm the opposition to Obamacare. Crap.

that was great...thanks

126 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:27:41am

re: #111 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Its meant to be a peaceful inner pushing back twice as hard

Yes, kind of a jihad.

/

127 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:27:52am

Why didn't the Republicans swipe this issue away from the Democrats between 2001-2009?

The health savings account plan that Bush presented would not have reformed anything at all. From what I recall, McCain also had a similar non-reform on his platform.

128 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:27:59am

re: #71 Spider Mensch

I wonder if any of the unions at these gatherings are UAW?? probably not, those are a compassionate group, history tells us so..for instance this classic pphoto from LIFE magazine..[Link: www.reuther.wayne.edu...]

union workers have a history of non violence...

Uh - that photo is very famous, and was taken during the Battle of the Overpass at the Ford Rouge Plant. It shows union organizers being pummeled by thugs employed by Ford. Reuther was there and was beaten bloody - I believe that is him with his jacket pulled over his head being beaten by three of the Ford hires; another organizer was tossed of an elevated walkway and suffered severe injuries. Reporters were present and documented the entire episode; this is one of their photographs, smuggled out and published the following day after a harrowing pursuit by the Ford muscle. All on hand, reporters and bystanders, agreed that the attack was unprovoked, and was preplanned by the company.

I don't care much for unions these days, but this particular event was a watershed for them, depicting the tactics used by Ford and others to prevent unionization. Public opinion turned overnight, and the outcry led to Federal laws being passed that gave the unions much of the power they enjoy to this day. Reuther and the other attendees were viciously attacked, Ford was finally unionized, and here we are today.

In the years following this event, union tactics turned sour, and similar events were often staged to incite similar outcomes in an effort to drum up sympathy. But this particular photo is a poor example of union thuggery. It illustrates exactly the opposite.

129 albusteve  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:29:08am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I think the smartest thing the Dems could do is cancel the town hall meetings. Hand the protesters a victory. It's pointless to hold these shouting matches and people are starting to get hurt. They're going to pass a bill anyways, we'll just have to wait and see what's in it.

cut and run?...I think the donks should fix the problem

130 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:29:12am
131 filetandrelease  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:29:14am

I took a moment to read on KOS regarding recent events at town hall meetings discussing health care reform. The consensus over there seems to be that conservatives are thugs bent on stopping debate on this issue all the while stating their historical openness to debating controversial issues. They also believe these disruptions are helping reform, not hurting.

I find this thinking remarkable in that it is so simply demonstrably wrong.

132 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:30:12am

re: #124 sattv4u2

So much for "transparancy"!

Well, the angry mobs are preventing people from attending meetings to ask questions about the bill. I suppose they could put up web pages or send out mailers or something but the meetings are pointless.
I'd be much more in favor of the protesters if they were advocating something like Krauthammer's plan, waited for their turn to speak and allowed others to speak but they're just there to be angry and make noise. It's childish.

133 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:30:14am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I think the smartest thing the Dems could do is cancel the town hall meetings. Hand the protesters a victory. It's pointless to hold these shouting matches and people are starting to get hurt. They're going to pass a bill anyways, we'll just have to wait and see what's in it.

KT, they might not pass a bill, or at least not this bill.

I'm thinking the numbers just plain don't work. It's not a matter of whether there will be lines and rationing, but whether anyone will know wtf their procedures are for getting care, or any doctor or hospital knowing what kind of reimbursement they will get, or when. May be an unconstitutional taking, even Ms. Sotomayor might think so.

Only previous bill I can recall which is this ill-structured was that Internet porn bill back in the 1990s that everyone KNEW was unconstitutional but they passed it anyway.

134 OldLineTexan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:30:28am

It's a democracy.

Sit down and shut up.

/

135 rumcrook  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:30:40am

re: #97 _RememberTonyC

having been a member of a union for many years myself, and knowing obama was a "chicago community orginizer" I do have doubts of whether he knew what could result from what he said.

136 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:31:04am

re: #129 albusteve

I think having proper security at the small town halls just isn't reasonable or cost effective. Just cancel them.

137 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:31:05am

re: #109 Pianobuff

Well I knew it would come to this. Now there are some mob pictures that, once the media does its job and starts spreading the news, will disarm the opposition to Obamacare. Crap.

Yeah, those are some scary people. I wonder if they bought their swastikas from Brooks Brothers on their way back from the 2000 recount protests in Broward County, FL.

/

138 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:31:26am

re: #127 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

Probably because there were more important things like fighting the war on the jihadis?

Then again, the problem was never so bad as the Demcrats claimed in the 90s, or even now.

Once again, Democrats purposefully obfuscate between cost of care and access to care.

Everyone has access to health care - anyone can get care in emergency rooms or see doctors.

Everyone of course will bitch and moan about the cost.

But you've received the care.

Democrats conflate the two, and claim that millions don't get health care because they lack insurance. They'll pad their figures by throwing in millions of illegal aliens into the mix for good measure.

139 Spider Mensch  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:31:38am

re: #128 SixDegrees

Uh - that photo is very famous, and was taken during the Battle of the Overpass at the Ford Rouge Plant. It shows union organizers being pummeled by thugs employed by Ford. Reuther was there and was beaten bloody - I believe that is him with his jacket pulled over his head being beaten by three of the Ford hires; another organizer was tossed of an elevated walkway and suffered severe injuries. Reporters were present and documented the entire episode; this is one of their photographs, smuggled out and published the following day after a harrowing pursuit by the Ford muscle. All on hand, reporters and bystanders, agreed that the attack was unprovoked, and was preplanned by the company.

I don't care much for unions these days, but this particular event was a watershed for them, depicting the tactics used by Ford and others to prevent unionization. Public opinion turned overnight, and the outcry led to Federal laws being passed that gave the unions much of the power they enjoy to this day. Reuther and the other attendees were viciously attacked, Ford was finally unionized, and here we are today.

In the years following this event, union tactics turned sour, and similar events were often staged to incite similar outcomes in an effort to drum up sympathy. But this particular photo is a poor example of union thuggery. It illustrates exactly the opposite.


thank you for the correction, my history is bad.

140 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:31:45am

re: #102 StillAMarine

BTW- I loved your comment on the last thread about the how the right is supposed to be better than the left in our tactics. I think at this time, the right wants to act like a bunch of whining leftists.

141 SecondComing  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:32:07am

re: #9 pat

This seems a bit fishy. Refer to Whie House.

I love it, I'm gonna do it.

142 Danny  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:32:16am

re: #132 Killgore Trout

I'd be much more in favor of the protesters if they were advocating something like Krauthammer's plan, waited for their turn to speak and allowed others to speak but they're just there to be angry and make noise. It's childish.

Too broad a brush, IMO.

143 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:32:17am

re: #138 lawhawk

Maybe it's not that simple, ERs are closing all over the place because the present system doesn't work.

144 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:32:37am

re: #123 Charles

If he had intended the remark to apply to demonstrators, I would condemn it. Surely you see the difference between this and "Tiller the baby killer?"

Again, I KNOW Axelrods Deputy Jim Messina made the remarks addressing congress people who are planning on holding Town Hall Meetings
(“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard,” Messina said, according to an official who attended the meeting)
And yes, I can tell the difference between A targeted individual and this

But the problem is in todays climate many will
A) attribute the remark to Obama
and
B) the other "fringe" will take it as a call to arms (literally)

As I stated, I think this type of rhetoric should be condemned. Messina could and should have phrased it better, imho

145 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:33:00am

re: #121 OldLineTexan

I agreed with your point.

146 StillAMarine  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:33:02am

re: #119 Sharmuta

As a very wise person once said, "Never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate."

147 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:33:31am

re: #139 Spider Mensch

thank you for the correction, my history is bad.

Not a problem. As it happens, I had the pleasure of seeing some prints made from the original negatives of this event not too long ago. But that's a long story, and I have to leave for a while.

148 MJ  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:33:56am

re: #64 sattv4u2

That it is. But as we (rightly) condemn the words of Beck, O'Reilly et al for "enciting" the mob for their words ("Tiller the Baby Killer",,,etc) should we not also condemn these words?

Wasn't it Obama who said ( while stealing someone else's words, according to Hillary Clinton )

Don't tell me words don't matter," Obama said. "'I have a dream.' Just words? 'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.' Just words? 'We have nothing to fear but fear itself.' Just words? Just speeches?"

Words matter, except when they don't.

149 Dreader1962  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:34:13am

A combination of approaches need to be done. I handle my mother's finances and she has a great number of medical bills. Medicare is doing a good job covering her expenses - the co-pays are manageable. What is beyond her ability to pay is the coverage gap in Part D (the so-called 'donut-hole'). During this period, her prescriptions cost over $1,000/month. I'm making up the difference and I don't mind this, but there is a perception among many that the solution is to get 'the other guy' (i.e. 'rich') to pay for their health care costs. That is just wrong.

Any solution needs to have every single person pay for their medical costs. To me, the best solution is a mixed approach, one that sets up a tax-exempt Health Savings Account for regular medical costs, establishes low-cost 'catastrophic' insurance, aggressively pursues fraud, integrates medical records electronically, and gets rid of the absurd method of billing that is done where every cost is padded and then the portion not covered by insurance/co-pay is 'written off'.

I was wondering if anyone here knew whether hospitals and medical offices consider this 'write-off' as a business loss for tax purposes - if so, it constitutes a major tax dodge.

150 LC LaWedgie  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:34:22am

re: #89 dwells38

I don't think it's a coincidence that all the union members I've seen suddenly at these meetings are all men and not small men...


...suffering from the "Roseanne Rosannadanna" syndrome perhaps?

Also hard to discern whether BarryO is suffering from a lack of verbal clarity or whether he chooses words such as "punch back" and "cops acting stupidly" not so innocently.

151 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:34:23am
152 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:34:31am

re: #135 rumcrook

having been a member of a union for many years myself, and knowing obama was a "chicago community orginizer" I do have doubts of whether he knew what could result from what he said.

Obama didn't say it, Jim Messina (David Axelrods spokesperson) did

Which proves my #144 point. Many will attribute the quote to Obama

153 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:34:46am

Ugh, I just don't have it in me to watch these videos this morning...
Raw video of wingnuts disrupting Tampa health care event

154 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:35:23am

re: #92 redstateredneck

"God love ya'!"

"What am I talkin about!"
*instant classic!

155 albusteve  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:36:04am

re: #136 Killgore Trout

I think having proper security at the small town halls just isn't reasonable or cost effective. Just cancel them.

dem leadership should drop the hyperbole and get themselves under control...I also think this picture of violent mobs is way overblown...not time to throw in the towel yet...that will just piss off the voters even more

156 filetandrelease  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:36:22am

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Well, the angry mobs are preventing people from attending meetings to ask questions about the bill. I suppose they could put up web pages or send out mailers or something but the meetings are pointless.
I'd be much more in favor of the protesters if they were advocating something like Krauthammer's plan, waited for their turn to speak and allowed others to speak but they're just there to be angry and make noise. It's childish.


It seems to me the point here is to stop the current bill. And in that end these tactics are effective?

157 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:36:37am

Did you guys hear the interview a few minutes ago on Rush? It was a couple who tried to attend the Kathy Castor Tampa town hall meeting and ended up getting roughed up by the union thugs. The husband is the one in the green shirt you've seen on those videos going around this morning.

158 Pianobuff  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:37:03am

re: #137 NukeAtomrod

Yeah, those are some scary people. I wonder if they bought their swastikas from Brooks Brothers on their way back from the 2000 recount protests in Broward County, FL.

/

There's a critical mass... I don't know exactly where the line is drawn - but there is some number of independent voters out there who are not used to being called "radical", "extremist", or "racist" like cons are. Some of these indies are getting out there and are not happy with things like Obamacare, the mounting debt, etc. There will be a point at which enough of them have been called extremists, racists, etc. that they will be lost to Dem causes through media alienation and rejection. So my advise to the committed progs/lefties is to keep insulting the average folks and making generalizations. Please, keep doing it.

159 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:37:15am
160 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:37:23am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I think the smartest thing the Dems could do is cancel the town hall meetings. Hand the protesters a victory. It's pointless to hold these shouting matches and people are starting to get hurt. They're going to pass a bill anyways, we'll just have to wait and see what's in it.

You are not joking?

161 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:37:29am

re: #146 StillAMarine

As a very wise person once said, "Never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate."

What's sad is- in a recent study the electorate did better on a civics quiz that elected officials did, so I guess we should never underestimate the stupidity of Congress either.

162 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:37:37am

re: #136 Killgore Trout

I think having proper security at the small town halls just isn't reasonable or cost effective. Just cancel them.

Funny how when the Libs employ the shout-down tactic and get dragged out of a hall by security they complain about their freedom of speech being squelched.

163 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:37:56am

For once I must say I actually agree with Krauthammer. I think where we went wrong is by making health insurance inexorably linked to employer benefits. It's done nothing but drag down American business and make us less competitive internationally.

Tort reform still seems like a strawman to me however. Most of the analysis I have read indicates that the cost of medical lawsuits only accounts for 2% of the cost of healthcare. Not saying that something doesn't need to be done, but tort reform as one of the two major planks of healthcare reform isn't going to be enough to control the spiraling costs.

Now if we could only get the GOP to make these same arguments in Congress, instead of sending crazed mobs of medicare recipients to storm town hall meetings.

164 MJ  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:38:03am

Interesting piece in the WaPo today:

Republicans Propagating Falsehoods in Attacks on Health-Care Reform

As a columnist who regularly dishes out sharp criticism, I try not to question the motives of people with whom I don't agree. Today, I'm going to step over that line.

The recent attacks by Republican leaders and their ideological fellow-travelers on the effort to reform the health-care system have been so misleading, so disingenuous, that they could only spring from a cynical effort to gain partisan political advantage. By poisoning the political well, they've given up any pretense of being the loyal opposition. They've become political terrorists, willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems. ..

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

165 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:38:19am

Rep. Dingell Town Hall: A Teabagger Extravaganza (PHOTOS)


Before I had even parked the car, I saw a young African American guy carrying a 5-foot tall picture of President Obama with a Hitler mustache.

Lovely.
/

166 rumcrook  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:38:26am

re: #152 sattv4u2

I stand corrected.

it came from his administration and they know the power of words, or they wouldnt have been so weasily when the protests were going on in iran

167 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:38:32am

re: #143 itellu3times

And part of the reason for closures is that the Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements aren't reflective of costs for care, and that fraud is rife in the system.

In NY last year, there was nearly $260 million in recovered funds from Medicaid fraud with more than 150 convictions.

Frausters in Miami are responsible for $3 billion in Medicaid fraud annually. That kind of money adds up real quick, and would be more than adequate to resolve possible ER closures.

ER's aren't optimal places to receive routine health care, but you can't claim that these people aren't receiving care at all. That's just an outright lie.

168 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:38:37am

I have to share this comment from Douche Underground:

I am frightened, really frightened.

I couldn't sleep last night, tossing and turning until I finally dozed off at about 3 am for two or three hours.

I've been watching the clips of the Town Hall meetings, and they really scare me.

I'm afraid it's going to turn into mob violence.

I really fear for the President's safety.

These people are being agitated beyond all reason.

What has happened to this country?

Oh nooos!

169 StillAMarine  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:39:07am

re: #140 Sharmuta

Thank you. I have always respected your comments. They always seem to be right on the money.

170 rightymouse  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:39:11am

Krauthammer is a genius.

171 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:39:12am

While granting that the White House is not advocating violence with "Punch back twice as hard" they are advocating an escalation in rhetoric.

This is advice coming from the campaign who told supporters to "get in the faces" of their friends who spoke out against Obama.

Not a call for violence. Not at all.

Just a call for more heated division of our society over an issue that the administration itself has yet to pin down their own position on. Multiple bills with multiple approaches but Obama decries all opponents as spreading "disinformation" and trying to preserve "the status quo".

Mr. President - your ACORN is showing.

172 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:39:14am

re: #157 NJDhockeyfan

Did you guys hear the interview a few minutes ago on Rush? It was a couple who tried to attend the Kathy Castor Tampa town hall meeting and ended up getting roughed up by the union thugs. The husband is the one in the green shirt you've seen on those videos going around this morning.

Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what happened. Everything I've read indicated that the building was above fire code capacity, so they shut the doors. Do yourself a favor and turn off the AM talk.

173 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:39:38am

I have not read the whole thread, but I have question about this from Krauthammer's piece:

2) Real health-insurance reform: Tax employer-provided health-care benefits and return the money to the employee with a government check to buy his own medical insurance, just as he buys his own car or home insurance.


If you tax employer-provided health care benefits and give the revenue to taxpayers to buy their own health insurance, isn't there a point where enough people have their own health insurance that there won't be enough still getting employer-provided benefits to provide private insurance for the others?

174 albusteve  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:39:58am

re: #160 VegasRick

You are not joking?

yowza!...does not work for me

175 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:40:57am

re: #171 karmic_inquisitor

Mr. President - your ACORN is showing.

Manking fun of the president's genitals is really immature and uncalled for.

176 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:41:06am

re: #150 LC LaWedgie

...suffering from the "Roseanne Rosannadanna" syndrome perhaps?

Also hard to discern whether BarryO is suffering from a lack of verbal clarity or whether he chooses words such as "punch back" and "cops acting stupidly" not so innocently.

Are you suggesting that Obama was inciting violence when he said his supporters should "punch back" at those who oppose his plan?

I wouldn't have gone that far myself, but I'm having a hard time refuting your well-crafted logical argument considering this video:

Youtube Video
177 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:41:31am

re: #172 drcordell

Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what happened. Everything I've read indicated that the building was above fire code capacity, so they shut the doors. Do yourself a favor and turn off the AM talk.

That's it...they closed the doors to prevent a fire code violation.

Hahahahahahaha!!!

Got any more good ones?

178 littleoldlady  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:42:08am

re: #143 itellu3times

Maybe it's not that simple, ERs are closing all over the place because the present system doesn't work.

In Pennsylvania it's difficult to find an OB-GYN. They are either quitting or leaving the state, and their stated reason is almost universally the cost of malpractice insurance.

BTW, with Medicare carrying HUGE, ASTRONOMICAL deficits, about to come due, does anybody think we maybe should be fixing that first?

179 BlueCanuck  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:42:10am

re: #163 drcordell

You had me until the last line.

180 albusteve  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:42:51am

re: #171 karmic_inquisitor

While granting that the White House is not advocating violence with "Punch back twice as hard" they are advocating an escalation in rhetoric.

This is advice coming from the campaign who told supporters to "get in the faces" of their friends who spoke out against Obama.

Not a call for violence. Not at all.

Just a call for more heated division of our society over an issue that the administration itself has yet to pin down their own position on. Multiple bills with multiple approaches but Obama decries all opponents as spreading "disinformation" and trying to preserve "the status quo".

Mr. President - your ACORN is showing.

the exact wrong thing to say...again...BO is a big league fool, people are going to become weary of his high school rhetoric

181 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:43:05am

re: #159 buzzsawmonkey

It is not the objective of the protesters to propose a new plan--and they are not in a position to do so. That is the job of intelligent people in Congress, if any exist.

The objective of the protesters and their protests is simply to register opposition the current plan being rammed down the country's throat, and by protesting stop it if possible.

It's not being "rammed down" anyone's throat, anymore so than GOP policies that were enacted over the past 8 years. Elections have consequences, and the southern rump that remains of the GOP doesn't have any votes. This is how democracy works in the United States.

182 rumcrook  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:43:47am

re: #172 drcordell


filled to capacity... by union members willing to comit violence hmmm

183 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:25am

re: #163 drcordell

Tort reform still seems like a strawman to me however. Most of the analysis I have read indicates that the cost of medical lawsuits only accounts for 2% of the cost of healthcare.

I'm pretty sure that leaves out this aspect, mentioned in the link at the top:

An authoritative Massachusetts Medical Society study found that five out of six doctors admitted they order tests, procedures and referrals -- amounting to about 25 percent of the total -- solely as protection from lawsuits
184 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:50am

re: #177 NJDhockeyfan

That's it...they closed the doors to prevent a fire code violation.

Hahahahahahaha!!!

Got any more good ones?

Who are you going to believe? Rush Limbaugh or the local news media that was actually there covering the event?

Read something.

Hundreds showed up for the 6:00 forum held at the Children's Board of Hillsborough County on Palm Avenue in Tampa. The auditorium which holds around 250 people, filled up so quickly eventually Tampa Police were ordered to begin turning people away.

Moments later, violence broke out just outside the main auditorium doors, prompting police to close off the meeting room.

Shocking that Rush Limbaugh might not be conveying all of the facts to his listeners...

185 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:46:56am
186 JohnAdams  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:47:26am

re: #181 drcordell

It's not being "rammed down" anyone's throat, anymore so than GOP policies that were enacted over the past 8 years. Elections have consequences, and the southern rump that remains of the GOP doesn't have any votes. This is how democracy works in the United States.

You'd have to be a complete idiot to not see that their "plan" is a catastrophe of bureaucratic entanglements, along with the ultimate power-grab. If you want to reform the current health system, you'd better come up with something a lot better than this 1,000 page load of lawyer-speak. Hell, Krauthammer did it in about 2,000 words.

187 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:49:16am

re: #183 wrenchwench

It is a pretty large logical jump to assume that the practice of "defensive medicine" will stop even after tort payouts are capped. As Krauthammer said, the penalty he is proposing for malpractice would be the revocation of a Doctor's medical license. The possibility of losing your medical license for life is certainly motivation for Doctors to continue ordering extra tests to cover their ass.

188 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:50:44am

re: #128 SixDegrees

Uh - that photo is very famous, and was taken during the Battle of the Overpass at the Ford Rouge Plant. It shows union organizers being pummeled by thugs employed by Ford. Reuther was there and was beaten bloody - I believe that is him with his jacket pulled over his head being beaten by three of the Ford hires; another organizer was tossed of an elevated walkway and suffered severe injuries. Reporters were present and documented the entire episode; this is one of their photographs, smuggled out and published the following day after a harrowing pursuit by the Ford muscle. All on hand, reporters and bystanders, agreed that the attack was unprovoked, and was preplanned by the company.

I don't care much for unions these days, but this particular event was a watershed for them, depicting the tactics used by Ford and others to prevent unionization. Public opinion turned overnight, and the outcry led to Federal laws being passed that gave the unions much of the power they enjoy to this day. Reuther and the other attendees were viciously attacked, Ford was finally unionized, and here we are today.

In the years following this event, union tactics turned sour, and similar events were often staged to incite similar outcomes in an effort to drum up sympathy. But this particular photo is a poor example of union thuggery. It illustrates exactly the opposite.

Actually, that's Richard Frankensteen. He got it much worse than Reuther that day. Also see this one, of Reuther and Frankensteen after the beatings. That site also has photos of striking UAW members beating "scabs". Not good either. It's amazing how far they'd come in just a few short years - from receiving beatings, to administering them. Here's the gallery main page. Lots of good pictures there.

189 Dreader1962  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:51:25am

I have to say that shouting chants in a town hall meeting will really lead to diminishing returns. I think they have the media interest by now, so the people opposing the overhaul that is being proposed need to shift to reasonable arguments and counter-proposals like Krauthammer.

It is interesting to observe the Democratic reaction to this tactic, which is tame compared to what Code Pink, MoveOn, et al did over the past eight years. As far as determining the effectiveness, one can't ignore the results of the last election - the lunatic fringe on the Democratic side didn't appear to turn off voters in 2008. One could even make the argument that the constant pressure turned some votes that consider themselves 'centrists' or 'independents'.

190 LC LaWedgie  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:51:30am

re: #176 NukeAtomrod

Nah, I'm not saying that the "White House" (Messina) was inciting violence. Incite is such an ugly word, especially in the political dance.
I do think there needs to be another response from Obama that his staff member didn't choose his words very carefully. Either that or he is remiss in his responsibility.

The leftards wouldn't have let any Bush official get away with that.

191 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:52:58am

re: #167 lawhawk

ER's aren't optimal places to receive routine health care, but you can't claim that these people aren't receiving care at all. That's just an outright lie.

OK, but with a "better system" the poor would presumably consume a great deal more health care, just saying that needs to be figured in. I think we can and even should pay for it, but it is going to be a big number.

Not "optimal" may be something of an understatement, too.

192 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:54:39am

re: #185 buzzsawmonkey

What "GOP policies" might you be referring to? Please note that when the GOP did in fact have Congressional majorities, it still expended effort to obtain some bipartisan consensus--more than it should have, in my opinion, since the vulgar, arrogant churlishness of the powermad Democrats dominating two of the three branches of government show quite clearly that they feel absolutely no obligation to the country or to elementary decency to reciprocate this courtesy.

Honestly, I'm beginning to think that you are completely detached from reality. Do you remember anything that occurred before Obama was in office? The GOP used budget reconciliation to cram down all 4 of Bush's major tax initiatives without Democratic support.

The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06] The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]

Each one of these bills had a multi-trillion dollar impact on the budget, now and in the future, and were passed with almost no Democratic votes due to the use of reconciliation. So don't tell me that Bush was "Mr. Bipartisan" because it's a complete crock of shit. How about some intellectual honesty?

193 apachegunner  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:55:05am

re: #163 drcordell

For once I must say I actually agree with Krauthammer. I think where we went wrong is by making health insurance inexorably linked to employer benefits. It's done nothing but drag down American business and make us less competitive internationally.

Tort reform still seems like a strawman to me however. Most of the analysis I have read indicates that the cost of medical lawsuits only accounts for 2% of the cost of healthcare. Not saying that something doesn't need to be done, but tort reform as one of the two major planks of healthcare reform isn't going to be enough to control the spiraling costs. Heres betting you'd never find a link to support that "2% statement"! Your nutts with any argument that the tort reform is a strawman.

Now if we could only get the GOP to make these same arguments in Congress, instead of sending crazed mobs of medicare recipients to storm town hall meetings.

194 apachegunner  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:56:47am

re: #181 drcordell

It's not being "rammed down" anyone's throat, anymore so than GOP policies that were enacted over the past 8 years. Elections have consequences, and the southern rump that remains of the GOP doesn't have any votes. This is how democracy works in the United States.

and this is a democracy you really, really love doncha?

195 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:59:34am

re: #194 apachegunner

and this is a democracy you really, really love doncha?

Look, I didn't agree with a lot of what went on over the past 8 years. But I didn't go around screaming that Bush was a "usurper" or not a citizen, or claiming that he was "cramming his policies down my throat" because the GOP had the majority. That's what the majority does, enact its legislative agenda. The GOP just had its way for 6 of 8 years consistently, and now they are out of power and on the receiving end. Deal with it.

196 kansas  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:00:02am

re: #23 Mich-again

30 years ago..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Give it rest and ice it several times a day.

Nowadays..
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts.
Doctor: Hmm, Lets schedule an MRI. Your insurance will cover it.

More like:
Patient: Doc, my elbow hurts, I want an MRI.
Doctor: Sorry, your HMO only pays me a capitated fee that doesn't come close to covering the cost of this visit let alone an MRI.

197 fizzlogic  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:01:21am

I hope John McCain's latest suggestion isn't the same he had before the financial meltdown--doing the same thing to health care they did to banking. ;)

198 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:03:38am

re: #192 drcordell

Honestly, I'm beginning to think that you are completely detached from reality. Do you remember anything that occurred before Obama was in office? The GOP used budget reconciliation to cram down all 4 of Bush's major tax initiatives without Democratic support.

The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06] The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]

Each one of these bills had a multi-trillion dollar impact on the budget, now and in the future, and were passed with almost no Democratic votes due to the use of reconciliation. So don't tell me that Bush was "Mr. Bipartisan" because it's a complete crock of shit. How about some intellectual honesty?

The Daschle democrats as a matter of policy opposed anything Bush proposed. Don't blame it on reconciliation. I do not believe there is any precedent in American national politics for the obstructionism of the democrats under Bush - I assume you can find that degree of childishness in many state and municipal governments, in most, in fact. But until about 2000, we were for the most part much luckier at the national level.

199 scalleywag  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:04:03am

Charles, how I wish thee were in charge!

Evidently a lot of people agree with him
[Link: www.zingtu.com...]

200 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:04:19am

Buzzsaw? Tapping out already?

201 kansas  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:06:27am

re: #163 drcordell

For once I must say I actually agree with Krauthammer. I think where we went wrong is by making health insurance inexorably linked to employer benefits. It's done nothing but drag down American business and make us less competitive internationally.

Good point.

Tort reform still seems like a strawman to me however. Most of the analysis I have read indicates that the cost of medical lawsuits only accounts for 2% of the cost of healthcare. Not saying that something doesn't need to be done, but tort reform as one of the two major planks of healthcare reform isn't going to be enough to control the spiraling costs.

So the millions of dollar awards, and the required by states malpractice sometimes costing upwards of 200,000 per year for certain specialites amounts to 2% of health care costs? Gonna need a link for that.

Now if we could only get the GOP to make these same arguments in Congress, instead of sending crazed mobs of medicare recipients to storm town hall meetings.

Crazed mobs of medicare recipients sent by the GOP? Where do you get this?

202 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:06:47am

re: #198 itellu3times

The Daschle democrats as a matter of policy opposed anything Bush proposed. Don't blame it on reconciliation. I do not believe there is any precedent in American national politics for the obstructionism of the democrats under Bush - I assume you can find that degree of childishness in many state and municipal governments, in most, in fact. But until about 2000, we were for the most part much luckier at the national level.

You don't believe there is any precedent? Do you remember the 1990's? Contract with America? Newt Gingrich literally shutting down Congress?Anyone? Buehler?

Does any memory of GOP actions under previous administrations just go immediately down the memory hole?

203 kansas  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:07:41am

re: #195 drcordell

Look, I didn't agree with a lot of what went on over the past 8 years. But I didn't go around screaming that Bush was a "usurper" or not a citizen, or claiming that he was "cramming his policies down my throat" because the GOP had the majority. That's what the majority does, enact its legislative agenda. The GOP just had its way for 6 of 8 years consistently, and now they are out of power and on the receiving end. Deal with it.

Maybe you didn't but remember Bush was seeelected not eeelected. And the 2004 election was stolen too. /

204 Dreader1962  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:08:49am

re: #195 drcordell

Look, I didn't agree with a lot of what went on over the past 8 years. But I didn't go around screaming that Bush was a "usurper" or not a citizen, or claiming that he was "cramming his policies down my throat" because the GOP had the majority. That's what the majority does, enact its legislative agenda. The GOP just had its way for 6 of 8 years consistently, and now they are out of power and on the receiving end. Deal with it.

Look, I think everyone on this site is quite tired of being talked down to by you. This is a forum for discussion, so you don't tell people to 'deal with it' - meaning 'sit down and shut up'. We retain the right to attempt to influence policy. If when it comes down to a vote and the majority Democratic Congress votes against our will, then we will 'deal with it'. Right now the policy is being formed and discussed.

If you have anything to contribute to the points being made, then by all means post. I for one was always tired of hearing tax cuts emphasized over revenue production and balanced budgets. Every citizen needs to be impacted by the financial decisions of their government when they increase spending - whether the reason is to fund the military, conduct war, pay for infrastructure, or even when they decide to socialize a segment of the economy. In addition, we should all directly be responsible for paying down our enormous debt. We had the opportunity to turn the corner during the Clinton years when we had surpluses, but politics crept in and the old combination of cutting taxes while increasing spending was the 'norm' again. Both parties are to blame for our current situation.

205 philip  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:09:14am

He lost me at "tort reform."

It's a feel-good talking point that they've already tried in several states and it didn't work.

206 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:12:21am

re: #204 Dreader1962

Look, I think everyone on this site is quite tired of being talked down to by you. This is a forum for discussion, so you don't tell people to 'deal with it' - meaning 'sit down and shut up'. We retain the right to attempt to influence policy. If when it comes down to a vote and the majority Democratic Congress votes against our will, then we will 'deal with it'. Right now the policy is being formed and discussed.

If you have anything to contribute to the points being made, then by all means post. I for one was always tired of hearing tax cuts emphasized over revenue production and balanced budgets. Every citizen needs to be impacted by the financial decisions of their government when they increase spending - whether the reason is to fund the military, conduct war, pay for infrastructure, or even when they decide to socialize a segment of the economy. In addition, we should all directly be responsible for paying down our enormous debt. We had the opportunity to turn the corner during the Clinton years when we had surpluses, but politics crept in and the old combination of cutting taxes while increasing spending was the 'norm' again. Both parties are to blame for our current situation.

Have you read any of the previous posts? Go read what I wrote originally. I started by saying that I agreed with Krauthammer for Christ sakes. Then I immediately get shouted down and put on the defensive. I'd like to have a discussion, but I will respond to people who keep likening the actions of Obama and the Democrats to fascism, when we're just out of 6 years of Bush and the GOP doing exactly the same thing.

207 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:13:27am
208 Dreader1962  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:14:32am

re: #206 drcordell

Yes, I've read your posts - I've also seen your hostile tone. You aren't going to make any headway essentially calling other people idiots for disagreeing with you.

209 charlesincharge  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:14:51am

re: #181 drcordell

It's not being "rammed down" anyone's throat, anymore so than GOP policies that were enacted over the past 8 years. Elections have consequences, and the southern rump that remains of the GOP doesn't have any votes. This is how democracy works in the United States.

This is exactly how democracy doesn't work. The minorities rights MUST be protected especially from the majority.

When democracy doesn't what will replace it?

210 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:18:21am

re: #201 kansas

Crazed mobs of medicare recipients sent by the GOP? Where do you get this?

Reality? Here is an example of exactly what I'm talking about. re: #207 buzzsawmonkey

Bush was extremely bipartisan; he got bipartisan support, despite the feral Democratic hatred of him, for his war resolutions.

But I was not speaking of Mr. Bush, nor of the arrogant Mr. Obama. I was referring to the bipartisanship of the Republican Congressional leadership--a bipartisanship which has been wholly lacking in the behavior of the Democrats.

As to the initiatives you refer to, I will point out that "almost no" Democratic votes is not the same thing as "none." That is to say, there was more bipartisanship in the Bush votes you cite to than you are willing to admit to.

Furthermore, and most important, the tax cuts were not designed, as Obama's healthcare plan--whatever it is at the current nanosecond--is designed, to totally reorganize government spending and the relationship of the citizens to the government. Tax cuts are merely tax cuts--they increase or decrease, but leave the basic existing relationships intact. The health juggernaut does not. For that very reason, the mad rush to enact it is in the nature of a criminal fraud, for it is designed to be rammed--yes, rammed--down the country's throat without any reasonable time given for either clear explanation or proper consideration.

His war resolutions were passed in the aftermath of 9/11 when the wreckage of the WTC was literally still smoldering. Anyone who voted against those resolutions would have been burned at the stake on Capitol Hill for treason.

Other than that, Bush and the GOP caucus made almost no effort to secure Democratic input on any of their major pieces of legislation. I just listed his 4 major policy initiatives, all of which required the use of reconciliation to pass, because the GOP lacked 60 senate votes. You didn't name a single bill that was passed with major bipartisan support. Keep repeating your stories of GOP bipartisanship all you want, but you don't have any facts to back the bullshit.

211 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:20:48am

re: #209 charlesincharge

This is exactly how democracy doesn't work. The minorities rights MUST be protected especially from the majority.

When democracy doesn't what will replace it?

I share your concern with the state of our Democracy. But let's not pretend that it hasn't been this way since at least the early 1900's. Somehow implying that Obama is acting differently than any of his predecessors with legislative majorities is disingenuous at best.

212 Ben Hur  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:24:48am
Other than that, Bush and the GOP caucus made almost no effort to secure Democratic input on any of their major pieces of legislation.

Especially in education.

Sick how Bushitler forced it down Kennedy's throat.

213 scalleywag  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:27am

I first balked at the idea of being taxed on my health insurance benefits but Charles has a good point...I'd be willing to pay taxes on my benefits if Congress would get together and come up with a reasonable plan. I'm just not interested in what they've cobbled together so far.

214 Dreader1962  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:41am

re: #212 Ben Hur

Especially in education.

Sick how Bushitler forced it down Kennedy's throat.

Don't forget Medicare Part D. Democrats completely opposed that one, too.

215 rumcrook  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:35:42am

O/T

I just tried listening to prager live on my laptop through my local radio station in colorado springs, but im on vacation in south america visiting relatives and it flagged me saying it was for u.s. residents only and my ip was in peru, anyone know a way around this so I can listen to the radio?

216 charlesincharge  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:54am

re: #211 drcordell

I share your concern with the state of our Democracy. But let's not pretend that it hasn't been this way since at least the early 1900's. Somehow implying that Obama is acting differently than any of his predecessors with legislative majorities is disingenuous at best.

Where in my #209 did I imply "that Obama is acting differently". My post was directed at you and those that agree with your statement "this is how Democracy works". Are you suggesting that Obama and his administration agree with your statement?

American Democracy should never be about the majority depriving the minority of its Constitutional rights. Such as petitioning their own government.

217 Mr. Sandman  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:04:32pm

If you forced everyone to buy individually on the market, the cornerstone of any Republican alternative "plan," then those with a precondition will not be able to get insurance, plain and simple (unless they were massively wealthy). Millions of people who are currently being treated would not be under such a system, for their preconditions or for anything else they might develop in the future. Employment funded insurance is one of the good things about our current system, and Krauthammer wants to take that away: his "reform" will lead to a far worse, not better health care system.

218 Mikey_Dallas  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:34:56pm

I hope we start importing proctologists, cause we're all gonna take it up the arse from Obamer

219 horse  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:42:46pm

I just love this guy, he is spot on in the approach and structure for a real health care solution that reforms the bad and keeps the good. Why the left wants to push an inefficient byzantium government controlled solution that takes away choice and will decrease services is baffling, unless you subscribe to the belief they have nefarious intentions or are just ignorant of the extent their ideas will harm people.

220 Buck  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:03:24pm

re: #211 drcordell

Somehow implying that Obama is acting differently than any of his predecessors with legislative majorities is disingenuous at best.

Good point EXCEPT that it is Obama himself, and his supporters that stressed that HE WOULD act differently than his predecessors.

We knew that he wouldn't, but I don't think it is disingenuous to point that out.

221 alexknyc  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:41:24pm

re: #172 drcordell

Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what happened. Everything I've read indicated that the building was above fire code capacity, so they shut the doors. Do yourself a favor and turn off the AM talk.

When you pack a meeting hall with union members and Democratic party operatives, it may be a little difficult to for the average joe with concerns to gain entry to the building.

222 gatorbait  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:56:23pm

re: #65 davesax

Could it possibly be that some Americans, not necessarily Republicans, are sick and tired of being shit upon by a bunch of jackasses?

223 drcordell  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:52:40pm

re: #220 Buck

Good point EXCEPT that it is Obama himself, and his supporters that stressed that HE WOULD act differently than his predecessors.

We knew that he wouldn't, but I don't think it is disingenuous to point that out.

What are you talking about? The man ran on a platform of reforming healthcare by including a public option. He is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. The entire battle between Hillary and Obama in the primaries was regarding whose healthcare plan was truly universal. You can't say he's all of a sudden pulling a fast one by trying to get healthcare reform passed. It was a cornerstone of his fucking campaign.

224 Buck  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:34:54pm

re: #223 drcordell

What are you talking about? The man ran on a platform of reforming healthcare by including a public option. He is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. The entire battle between Hillary and Obama in the primaries was regarding whose healthcare plan was truly universal. You can't say he's all of a sudden pulling a fast one by trying to get healthcare reform passed. It was a cornerstone of his fucking campaign.

You are arguing a different argument. I didn't even mention healthcare.

Read my #220 You said he it was wrong to expect him to act differently than his predecessors. I said that he ran a campaign where he stressed that HE WOULD act differently than his predecessors.

I think it is perfectly fair to expect him to be different.

Anyway, it is not the Republicans getting in the way of healthcare reform. Democrats control the House and the Senate. Obama can, in theory, put anything through that he wants. And yet he is having trouble with Healthcare Reform.

He keep blaming the "guys who made the mess". And "Politics as usual".

Is that divisive talk the CHANGE America voted for?

225 harpsicon  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:38:36pm

re: #187 drcordell

It is a pretty large logical jump to assume that the practice of "defensive medicine" will stop even after tort payouts are capped. As Krauthammer said, the penalty he is proposing for malpractice would be the revocation of a Doctor's medical license. The possibility of losing your medical license for life is certainly motivation for Doctors to continue ordering extra tests to cover their ass.

In Texas, where "pain and suffering" were capped after ob-gyns were leaving the state in large numbers, the doctors all came back. Nobody's talking about the cost of repairing/taking care of the results of malpractice - that's not limited. The question is the extra taste, plus all the money for lawyers.

And no, the doctors don't need all that stuff to cover their butts for real health issues - the problem is that lawyers can make up stuff that doctors would never even imagine.

I was once called for a jury where a cleaning woman had slipped on the sidewalk outside a park Avenue apartment building where she worked, and was asking (that is, the lawyer was asking) for millions of dollars. The word "lottery" could not be more exact.

226 Code Red 21  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 6:57:31pm

Women demand that government stay out of their uterus when it comes to abortion I demand that government stay out of my health care.

227 Megawatt  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:51:22pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

I do agree that the town hall meetings are currently pointless but I would point fingers at the Administration and Congress for having a disturbing history of not reading legislation before it is rammed through at breakneck speed.

This sense of urgency and desperation is completely understandable.

228 Megawatt  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 9:58:03pm

re: #217 Mr. Sandman

If you forced everyone to buy individually on the market, the cornerstone of any Republican alternative "plan," then those with a precondition will not be able to get insurance, plain and simple (unless they were massively wealthy). Millions of people who are currently being treated would not be under such a system, for their preconditions or for anything else they might develop in the future. Employment funded insurance is one of the good things about our current system, and Krauthammer wants to take that away: his "reform" will lead to a far worse, not better health care system.

Rationed healthcare where the govt has the perogative to decide who gets treatment and who gets complimentary painkillers is no different than private insurance companies denying people healthcare coverage.

229 Cato  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:55:20am

Any government run system converts each citizen from an asset to a liability. Let's keep citizens assets.

230 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:33:06am

re: #138 lawhawk

Probably because there were more important things like fighting the war on the jihadis?

That's a good point your bring up, but war can't postpone domestic needs indefinitely.


Then again, the problem was never so bad as the Demcrats claimed in the 90s, or even now.

"Never so bad" is in the eye of the beholder. Doesn't it strike you as strange that no country wants to copy the American system "as is" when other successful American franchises and business practices are immediately implemented abroad?

The politicians and demagogues focus on emotional catchphrases such as "private sector" and "universal health care" instead of looking at third ways and hybrid solutions that work pretty well in other countries.


Once again, Democrats purposefully obfuscate between cost of care and access to care.


I'm willing to agree that the liberal Democrats have an agenda that will not necessarily fix the problems. I also think that the Republicans were never serious (with the exception of Nixon) about reforming health care because their worldview is that health care is not a right, but a service like any other and the "invisible hand" should be left to set prices.


Everyone has access to health care - anyone can get care in emergency rooms or see doctors.


Not so sure about that. When I was a kid and my parents went through a period without insurance, my pediatrician refused to see me and offered only telephone consultation services. And this was with a doctor who we worked with for many years.


Everyone of course will bitch and moan about the cost.


Justifiably. An emergency room visit can easily run up to $1000.

231 spudly  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:20am

re: #93 itellu3times


But as someone rather skeptical about the average quality in today's health care system, I cringe a bit at:

But, I suppose the quality of the system is not much on the table right now, so I should grin and bear it.

Why cringe at quality of care in the US? The healthcare crisis people like to throw statistics about average lifespan out there, for example. That is NOT a measure of quality of care, it is too confounded by cultural and lifestyle factors.

If you look, however, at incidence of cancers, and then mortality rates, you see an entirely different picture. In this case, lower mortality is an indicator of nothing but quality of care. Since the stats are per 100,000 population at large, it measures the current system warts and all. Do this calculation for breast cancer and prostate cancer, for example—good because they are treatable, but frequently fatal if untreated. You will find that the best place on earth is the US. We have higher cancer rates, and the same or lower mortality rates. That's with 40-something % of care delivered with the government as insurer (medicaid/medicare).

US quality of care is flat out excellent.

232 spudly  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:58:50am

re: #205 philip

He lost me at "tort reform."

It's a feel-good talking point that they've already tried in several states and it didn't work.

The savings from tort reform is long term—mitigating defensive medicine.

IMO, this is a very long term solution because the extant physicians in practice already have a culture of defensive medicine. It is ingrained. I think you'd not see a major change until a few new generations of docs have gone through the Residency mill. Longer in fact than that since their attendings will still instill the defensive culture. It will take a while to change, expecting it to happen quickly is a failure to understand the nature of the medical "culture."

233 spudly  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:03:31am

re: #228 Megawatt

Not true. When it becomes only government, you have no options. If your private insurance won't pay, YOU can write a check yourself. Care is not denied, someone else PAYING for care is. You can still pay yourself. When the government is the sole arbiter of the formulary, you will have to become a medical tourist to some other country to get treated off the formulary, you can't pay yourself, or shop different carriers.

234 Mr. Sandman  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:10am

re: #228 Megawatt

Rationed healthcare where the govt has the perogative to decide who gets treatment and who gets complimentary painkillers is no different than private insurance companies denying people healthcare coverage.

There is always going to be rationing in some form or another, whether we have a pure Ayn Rand free market system of health insurance, or a complete government system, or anywhere along the spectrum in between. The question is how best to reduce waste, needless cost, and minimize the number of people who are denied care. In the current system there is such gargantuan waste necessitated by the insurance company profit motive. Pure free market capitalism works for a lot of thing but just does not work for health insurance. When a health insurance company CEO expands his mansion or adds a pool to his yacht or gold plates his toilet, do you ever ask who with a treatable illness had his claim denied and had to die, to allow this sort of luxury? People are too often denied care even when they have insurance due to this ruthless system. I think a strong private option, a choice to get insurance from a system without a will do no harm. It will provide balance, a motivation for the insurance companies to be more reasonable in what they charge and what they provide.

235 spudly  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:41am

I apologize, megawatt, I replied to the wrong post. I meant to reply to Cheese Eating Victory Monkey, post #230. Mea culpa.

236 Baelzar  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:26:41am

re: #234 Mr. Sandman

The question is how best to reduce waste, needless cost, and minimize the number of people who are denied care.

I submit that government is the least efficient, most wasteful and most expensive option. They do not care about keeping costs down, because (drumroll) THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT PROFIT.

When a health insurance company CEO expands his mansion or adds a pool to his yacht or gold plates his toilet, do you ever ask who with a treatable illness had his claim denied and had to die, to allow this sort of luxury?

...and for a moment there I thought you were actually worth debating. You are just another rob Peter to pay Paul partisan. "How many have to die before we abandon Capitalism?" /sob /sob

237 Mr. Sandman  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:12:49pm

re: #236 Baelzar

The profit motive in pure capitalism is a means to an end--since in many cases it produces the best setting of prices and prosperity. But it is not the end itself; we don't want the profit motive for the sake of the profit motive, but for the sake of the prosperity it so often generates. But health care is a special case where a pure private market system flat out fails. I don't know how you can ignore the fact that health care is nothing like a "commodity" and a pure private market in this case system flips everything around, generating the inevitable outcome where those who need health care the most are denied it. There needs to be an incentive in our system for insurance companies to lower their cost and provide more care, and the CEO's are paid at least dozens of times what they deserve for the work they do--their obscene profits by definition constitute waste of the money people pay for health care, and sucks quality out of the care. What is wrong with a government option--if you are correct and private insurance by itself is better, the government option will just fail. If I'm correct then it will provide better bang for the buck and an incentive for private companies to lower cost and improve coverage. There's no rational reason to not try it.

238 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 3:00:03am

I liked Kerry's reform that was on his 2004 election platform - creating a national fund that will bail out people who have health catastrophes.

(By the way, people who have kidney failure are automatically eligible for medicare.)


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