Mob Mentality at Town Hall Meetings

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If anyone thinks this is the right way to debate health care, well, you’re dreaming: Health Debate Turns Hostile at Town Hall Meetings.

There’s a place for yelling, screaming, and protesting — at demonstrations scheduled for that purpose. When these Tea Partiers and Glenn Beck drones charge into town hall meetings, shout down speakers, and act like angry children throwing tantrums, they achieve nothing but to further cement the impression that the right wing is going dangerously nuts.

And who thought it was a great idea to gleefully adopt the name “mob?” Here’s a hint: it only works to satirically co-opt a derogatory term like “mob” if you’re not really acting like a mob.

Become a part of the mob!” said a banner posted Friday on the Web site of the talk show host Sean Hannity. “Attend an Obama Care Townhall near you!” The exhortations do not advocate violence, but some urge opponents to be disruptive.

“Pack the hall,” said a strategy memo circulated by the Web site Tea Party Patriots that instructed, “Yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”

“Get him off his prepared script and agenda,” the memo continued. “Stand up and shout and sit right back down.”

The memo was obtained by the liberal Web site ThinkProgress. Its author, Robert MacGuffie, a founder of the conservative Web site Right Principles, confirmed to The New York Times that the memo was legitimate.

In response, liberal groups and the White House have also started sending supporters instructions for countering what they say are the organized disruptions.

A volatile mix has resulted. In Mehlville, Mo., St. Louis County police officers arrested six people on Thursday evening, some on assault charges, outside a health care and aging forum organized by Representative Russ Carnahan, a Democrat. Opponents of the proposed changes, organized by the St. Louis Tea Party, apparently clashed with supporters organized by the Service Employees International Union outside a school gym.

That same day in Romulus, Mich., Representative John D. Dingell, a long-serving Democrat, was shouted down at a health care meeting by a rowdy crowd of foes of health care overhaul, many crying, “Shame on you!” A similar scene unfolded in Denver on Thursday when Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California visited a clinic for the homeless there.

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719 comments
1 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:41:43am
There’s a place for yelling, screaming, and protesting — at demonstrations scheduled for that purpose. When these Tea Partiers and Glenn Beck drones charge into town hall meetings, shout down speakers, and act like angry children throwing tantrums, they achieve nothing but to further cement the impression that the right wing is going dangerously nuts.

I couldn't agree more, Charles. If folks want to protest, they should do so at a protest. A town hall is supposed to be polite. Ask questions, and even make them difficult, but be civil for Pete's sake.

2 CERDIP  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:42:39am

Wasn't the "mob" sobriquet something Obama's people used to describe peaceful gatherings...? Looks to me like anti-Obama folks are co-opting to the term, in order to defuse its power...

3 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:44:01am

Is everyone at each meeting a member of the tea-party brigade? A fan of Beck?

4 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:44:10am

I've been blessed by never having seen two and three-year-olds behaving this badly.

/though I've heard of it

5 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:45:23am

re: #2 CERDIP

Wasn't the "mob" sobriquet something Obama's people used to describe peaceful gatherings...? Looks to me like anti-Obama folks are co-opting to the term, in order to defuse its power...

It might work better to "defuse its power" if they weren't actually acting like mobs.

6 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:45:31am
“Become a part of the mob!” said a banner posted Friday on the Web site of the talk show host Sean Hannity.


Tea Party protesters also stupidly embraced the "right wing extremist" label too. I just don't know what they're thinking.

7 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:46:05am

“I just want to put everybody on notice, because there was a lot of chatter during the week that I was gone: We are going to get this done,”
Obama

Screw debate, my way or the highway.

8 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:46:06am

It seems to me that the mob is wearing blue SEIU shirts.

9 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:46:52am

I think they need to read Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

heh

10 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:46:56am

re: #3 MandyManners

Is everyone at each meeting a member of the tea-party brigade? A fan of Beck?

Nobody is claiming that. However, the Tea Parties should have taught people to not be involved in anything that Glenn Beck fans are participating in.

11 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:46:59am

re: #3 MandyManners

Is everyone at each meeting a member of the tea-party brigade? A fan of Beck?

Didn't you know? Every person at a town-hall believes in shape-shifters, black helicopters, FEMA camps, etc. Every one of them! The NY Times says so!!! Don't let those little old ladies fool you. They unzip their body suits to reveal muscular reptilian features. They are terrifying creatures.

12 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:47:44am

Mandy - where is your video. This is a good place for it?

13 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:47:57am

re: #9 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I think they need to read Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

heh

I think there's a new version circulating for conservatives. Lot's of right wing blogs were linking to it yesterday, I didn't bother to read it.

14 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:20am

re: #7 jcm

Do you think it's a good idea to adopt their tactics?

15 caligal  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:34am

all it takes is one or two bad "apples" and the whole barrel/hall is tainted.

16 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:34am

And then there's the Dem. Rep. David Scott from Georgia who had a meltdown and yelled at his constituents when one was being polite asking a health care question. It wasn't a health care meeting, but Scott objected on those grounds way out of proportion. If these are the instructions for countering disruptions, there will be a price for it at the ballot box.

I just looked at the video on the front page.

17 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:36am

re: #8 opnion

It seems to me that the mob is wearing blue SEIU shirts.

That is the Union. We (the mob) only wear pinstripes. And Fedoras.
/

18 Ringo the Gringo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:46am

re: #3 MandyManners

Is everyone at each meeting a member of the tea-party brigade? A fan of Beck?


No, and that's a big problem for those of us who oppose the President's plans but are not fond of shouting and public disruptions.

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:49am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

I think there's a new version circulating for conservatives. Lot's of right wing blogs were linking to it yesterday, I didn't bother to read it.

OH SHIT!

*gulp* ... I was kidding

20 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:56am

re: #9 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I think they need to read Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

heh

I think they already have. They sure seem to be deploying many of the same tactics. It's not pretty.

21 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:57am

re: #11 Pianobuff

Look -- the tea party groups are absolutely heavily promoting this mob behavior, and so is Glenn Beck. I don't know why you want to pretend it isn't happening.

22 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:59am

Who thinks it's a great idea to gleefully adopt the name 'mob'?

Probably the same geniuses that think it's a great idea to call themselves "right wing extremists".

PS-- everyone aware that the twitter hash tag #iamthemob is being used to promote this sort of thing?

23 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:49:57am

re: #16 Silvergirl

And then there's the Dem. Rep. David Scott from Georgia who had a meltdown and yelled at his constituents when one was being polite asking a health care question. It wasn't a health care meeting, but Scott objected on those grounds way out of proportion. If these are the instructions for countering disruptions, there will be a price for it at the ballot box.

I just looked at the video on the front page.

Plus Scott insinuated that the man asking the question was not from his district, which was not true. Funny thing, the guy was a Dem doctor, not a Republican astro-turfing political terrorist.

24 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:50:43am

I agree that this sort of behavior is pathetic, no matter who does it.

Regarding holding informed debates, however: the Dems have emphatically stated that they're going to pass this health care bill no matter what anyone says. Not exactly an invitation for rational, open discourse.

A possible solution: given that the Dems are going to stonewall legitimate debate and shut down dissent through any means necessary, I'd suggest that it's up to the GOP to hold their own open meeting, do their own mailings, get themselves on talk shows and in front of reporters with their reasons for opposing the currently proposed plan, and - if they feel it has merit - to put their own alternatives forward. Also, now is the time to reach across the aisle and build a coalition with Conservative Democrats - that is the only way health care reform is going to be defeated.

Having done all that, time to STFU. The Democrats own the Federal government and bear responsibility for whatever they manage to pass. Right now, all this turmoil greases the skids for them to blame the GOP for failure to pass anything, despite their spectrum-wide majority. It's the perfect excuse for them not being able to hold their own party together, and Conservatives shouldn't be handing them that opportunity.

25 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:51:10am

I'll probably review some of the town hall videos just to confirm but, IIRC the "eruptions" tend to immediately follow some outrageous statement (i.e., bald-faced lie). I think these attendees are being slapped in the face with what amounts to their representative saying, "I think you're stupid--else I wouldn't try to get away with this lying."

As far as I can tell, none of these Congressional asshats that are becoming famous on YouTube have hosted a meeting that genuinely listened to their constituents. (Those town hall events wouldn't have the "train wreck" attraction, of course.)

We're seeing videos of a cram-down that's being resisted by the population.

26 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:51:49am

re: #20 Sharmuta

I think they already have. They sure seem to be deploying many of the same tactics. It's not pretty.

Indeed.

27 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:51:57am

re: #10 Killgore Trout

Nobody is claiming that. However, the Tea Parties should have taught people to not be involved in anything that Glenn Beck fans are participating in.

How will we know KT. How will we know.
*Oh the horror of not knowing!

28 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:52:38am

Victim of Alleged SEIU Town Hall Assault in St. Louis Interviewed on Cavuto

/got my fried green tomatoes w/ horseradish-honey aoli yum

29 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:14am

And, in honor of a bipartisan look at these meetings and protests, let's look at some progressive mobbing in Denver...

"A supporter of health care reform, left, who did not want to give her name, pushes forward to rip a sign out of Kris McLay's hands outside the Stout Street Clinic visited by Nancy Pelosi."

[Link: www.denverpost.com...]

30 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:17am

another glaring example of the lack of solid GOP leadership...sooner or later these folks are gonna have to reign it in or the whole exercise becomes pointless...time for phase 2...start thinking about cooling it a bit

31 JammieWearingFool  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:19am

The DNC was the one calling them mobs. Seems they're just goofing on them.

Democrats do not want any debate. If their plan was so great it would sell itself.

32 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:35am

re: #25 SlartyBartfast

I'll probably review some of the town hall videos just to confirm but, IIRC the "eruptions" tend to immediately follow some outrageous statement (i.e., bald-faced lie).

Sorry, that's just not true. I've watched at least a dozen videos of these events, and it's perfectly clear that the "mobs" never intended to listen to anyone, or engage in any discussions.

33 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:57am

re: #23 Pianobuff

Plus Scott insinuated that the man asking the question was not from his district, which was not true. Funny thing, the guy was a Dem doctor, not a Republican astro-turfing political terrorist.

I noticed that. Plus, the way I understood it, it was a portion of the meeting opened up for general questions. Still, the guy got it both barrels.

34 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:54:43am

re: #22 iceweasel

Who thinks it's a great idea to gleefully adopt the name 'mob'?

Probably the same geniuses that think it's a great idea to call themselves "right wing extremists".

PS-- everyone aware that the twitter hash tag #iamthemob is being used to promote this sort of thing?

they are mocking their critics...seems pretty obvious to me

35 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:54:50am

re: #1 Sharmuta

Town hall meetings are supposed to be polite, but that's not how they're often conducted. Even before the health care debate, how many times did news of fisticuffs and other harshness occur at town hall meetings that ended up on YouTube and local news? Quite a bit.

These gatherings are often over emotionally rough issues that bring out the passions on both sides. I've seen loud gatherings in my local homeowners association over much less serious matters than national health care policy.

It's not like I concur with the mob mentality, but it hasn't sprung up out of whole cloth. It happens all the time, but now that health care is a hot button issue, people are taking their elected representatives to task. Many people who haven't been outspoken on matters are realizing that they need to speak out and may not realize that screaming and getting into the face of others who disagree is the wrong way to handle these occasions. I don't think the mob mentality is the right way to handle it, but that's what they're doing.

The mob mentality is going to undercut the GOP effectiveness on this issue, but the anger is real. The displeasure with a Democrat party that is going to ram through massive changes to health care policy is real.

Everyone realizes that Congress isn't even bothering to read the details, and that the Members are going along with what the party leaders say are in the bill (and one can wonder whether even they know the entirety of what's in the bills).

None of the proponents can honestly answer basic questions about these bills, namely:

1) How much will this realistically cost, given that every other government program has gone staggeringly over cost projections.
2) How long will I have under my existing program until the government health care forces me into the public plan.
3) Why should public health care improve quality when we've got examples from other countries where care becomes far more restrictive and quality of care is substandard in US gov't health care programs like the Indian Health Service and the VA.
4) Cash for clunkers anyone? If you can't manage a $1 (now $3) billion program adequately, how can anyone expect the government to do a better job with a significant portion of the US GNP.

That's how it should be handled.

36 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:56:13am

re: #17 VegasRick

That is the Union. We (the mob) only wear pinstripes. And Fedoras.
/

Hi Rick. I was at a union hall yesterday (a client). They were comp;lainin g about Obamacare & the SEIU thugs. I said nothing

37 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:56:34am

A Town-Hall Protest in Maryland

As he entered the auditorium of the Mardela Middle and High School on Tuesday, a surprised Frank Kratovil waded through a sea of constituents. The first-term Democratic congressman had been told by aides that maybe two or three dozen residents would attend the “Congress in Your Corner” town-hall event in this Eastern Shore town of about 360 people. Instead, more than 250 people showed up.

The crowd repeatedly burst into wild cheering, but not for Mr. Kratovil. The cheers were for residents who gave the congressman a piece of their mind over what’s happening in Washington.
[ ]
The audience erupted in huge applause when a retired naval chief petty officer brought up government-run health care on Indian reservations and at Veterans Administration hospitals and then asked, “Why would we want that?” The audience booed when Mr. Kratovil said he voted for cap-and-trade because he thought it would actually lower Marylanders’ electricity rates.

The meeting was contentious, though civilized. Those at the meeting politely allowed Mr. Kratovil to make his points before responding, and the audience applauded when he noted that he voted against various spending bills, including the president’s budget. Many questioners thanked him for having the courage to show up.

38 Wumpus Hunter  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:56:47am

Part of this is, after years of seeing Code Pink, Act Out, Critical Mass and other liberal groups get both media coverage and results, some folks have given up being quiet and meek. They feel the only way to be heard is by making alot of noise...

39 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:07am
40 Ringo the Gringo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:10am

Not all of the behavior of the Obamacare opponents fits the description of a mob. The AARP Townhall in Dallas a few days ago comes to mind.

41 horse  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:33am

The extremes on both sides appear to be the ones directing the bad political theater in the USA today. Good for ratings, good for fund raising, good for grasping and securing control, bad for America. That said, it would be most helpful if President Obama actually behaved presidential. Perhaps others would then emulate his lead.

42 kpom  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:37am

Alinsky tactics work.

43 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:57am

re: #35 lawhawk

Those are good questions -- but none of the people disrupting these meetings have any interest whatsoever in asking any real questions, or engaging in any debate. It's thuggish behavior, encouraged by irresponsible idiots like Hannity and Beck.

44 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:58am

re: #35 lawhawk

A further question: given that the figures for the uninsured being tossed about - 30 to 40 million - are true, we now have a private-sector system that covers around 90% of the population. Why is is necessary to junk that entire system and turn every aspect of health care over to government control? Why have no solutions based in the private sector been put forward? Is it really necessary to completely retool a system from top to bottom that has such a stunning success rate in the first place?

45 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:58:00am
There’s a place for yelling, screaming, and protesting — at demonstrations scheduled for that purpose. When these Tea Partiers and Glenn Beck drones charge into town hall meetings, shout down speakers, and act like angry children throwing tantrums, they achieve nothing but to further cement the impression that the right wing is going dangerously nuts.

No, not dangerously nuts in my opinion, it's freedom of speech, even if some people don't like it.

Sure, you are going to have certain types at these rally's who don't help the issue, but guess what? Conservatives tend not to stifle speech or work from a base of a group meme. That's the purvey of progressives.

So, conservatives have more people speaking out in numerous way, sometimes crazy, most times intelligent dialog, and I in no way want to see us be cowered into keeping our mouth shut.

Progressive own that meme, group speak, what's proper or not according to the social group, you know, all that stuff that sounds like 1984.

Keep shouting, rally on.

46 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:58:14am

re: #29 Walter L. Newton

And, in honor of a bipartisan look at these meetings and protests, let's look at some progressive mobbing in Denver...

"A supporter of health care reform, left, who did not want to give her name, pushes forward to rip a sign out of Kris McLay's hands outside the Stout Street Clinic visited by Nancy Pelosi."

[Link: www.denverpost.com...]

No, no, no., only those that oppose Obama are a mob. His supporters are concerned citizens.

47 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:58:45am

re: #39 Lincolntf

I'm sure they are already watching that group, and I'm sure the Secret Service is too, and they should be. There have already been death threats posted on it.

48 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:58:52am

re: #9 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I think they need to read Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

heh

In the first chapter, opening paragraph of the book Alinsky writes:

"What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. The Prince was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. Rules for Radicals is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away."

Obama and the Dems represent those in the first sentence. They are the ones with the desire to change the world.
I don't support violence.
I am not and have never been a member of...

49 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:59:07am

- Becoming a mob is a great way to be marginalized.
- Calling people with a different opinion about health care "teabaggers" is as sensible and useful as calling your opposition "dirty hippies."
- Lying politicians should not be surprised when their constituents get angry.

50 sngnsgt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:59:12am

How ironic, Democrat groups calling Tea Partiers "the mob."

51 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:59:13am

re: #14 Sharmuta

Do you think it's a good idea to adopt their tactics?

No, and a little yes.

But I want a debate on the issue.

When POTUS in essence says, no debate, when our elected representative lock people out of meetings using SEIU thugs, when they limit discussions at meetings to topics other than health care, when they out right cancel meetings to avoid the topic. We they use Alinksy tactics to demonize and marginalize and avoid the debate.

Then we have not only the right, but duty to insure the debate does place, not sit back and let the (D)s force it down our throats.

52 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:59:16am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

No, not dangerously nuts in my opinion, it's freedom of speech, even if some people don't like it.

Since when does "freedom of speech" mean "shouting other people down?"

53 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:59:23am
54 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:00:13am

re: #32 Charles

Sorry, that's just not true. I've watched at least a dozen videos of these events, and it's perfectly clear that the "mobs" never intended to listen to anyone, or engage in any discussions.

For me, the two events that immediately come to mind are Russ McCaskle in St. Louis who says essentially, "The CBO says the house healthcare plan with be deficit-neutral and will yield a profit in three years..." (pure, unadultrated B.S.) and the famous AARP "Geezers with Pitchforks" video in which the presenter desperately needs her assertion that "the current system is not sustainable" to be accepted at face value so she can proceed with the cram-down.

(I'm quoting from memory. Anyone need linky?)

55 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:00:17am

re: #2 CERDIP

Wasn't the "mob" sobriquet something Obama's people used to describe peaceful gatherings...? Looks to me like anti-Obama folks are co-opting to the term, in order to defuse its power...

Maybe that's the intent, but it's a woefully stupid plan. Major backfire coming in 3... 2...

56 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:01:23am

re: #27 VegasRick

Glenn Beck, Freedom Works, et al are the same people who turned the Tea Parties into such an embarrassing debacle. They failed to denounce White Supremacists and extremists. They even spoke out in support of the dick who circulated the racist Obama-witch doctor email on their mailing list. Why continue to support their events? It's only going to lead to more embarrassment.

57 PISSED  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:02:12am

In most of the videos I see, The people are angry and frustrated with the govenment. In my opinion they are a mix of all americans.
I sure there are some people that are there to agitate but most are just aggravated at what is happening. I believe that people are saying " I am the mob" because they are being labeled that way.Just as people were saying they were domestic terrorists when the report came out from homeland security.
There is going to me a looong road to the midterms and I think its going to get worse and more violent, caused by both sides.

58 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:02:13am

re: #36 opnion

Hi Rick. I was at a union hall yesterday (a client). They were comp;lainin g about Obamacare & the SEIU thugs. I said nothing

That's great. I don't think the thugs that showed up as muscle at the town hall are reflective of most union members.

59 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:02:13am

re: #52 Charles

Since when does "freedom of speech" mean "shouting other people down?"

When ever it happens? And it happens on both sides. That's what makes it freedom of speech.

60 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:02:39am

re: #35 lawhawk

I think it's a lack of leadership on the part of the GOP. They were not in control of the tea parties, they're not in control of these mobs, they're not in control of any message(!), and they're not in control of their base(!!). You know it's bad when republicans don't want to do town halls because of nirthers.

There's a real breakdown of civics in this country, and this is the harvest. People don't know how to appropriately deal with these matters- even in a new information age where your congressperson is a website away. Politics is the art of compromise, and people on all sides would do well to remember the wisdom in flies and honey.

61 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:02:50am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

Tea Party protesters also stupidly embraced the "right wing extremist" label too. I just don't know what they're thinking.

The crazy is penetrating new markets every day, with full-fledged black helicopter paranoia moving into Free Republic, for example. This outburst would be no big deal on an Alex Jones nutburger site, but it hasn't been too long since Free Republic was part of the conservative mainstream. It was heavily involved along with Charles in exposing the Bush TANG docs back in 2004, for example.
(As usual, I was late in posting and missed the new thread where it might have been more appropriate.)

62 Banner  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:02:51am

Funny, it was okay when the left did it. And they did it everywhere

63 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:03:17am

re: #42 kpom

Alinsky tactics work.

Rather than up-ding, I'll post a specific, and limited, agreement.

Yes, they have worked (ACORN expanding the CRA, etc.)
Yes, they do work, if the users think ends justify means and the media plays along (in whatever fashion is appropriate for the moment.)

Is that right?
[obscenity deleted] NO!

64 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:03:26am

re: #49 jaunte

- Becoming a mob is a great way to be marginalized.
- Calling people with a different opinion about health care "teabaggers" is as sensible and useful as calling your opposition "dirty hippies."
- Lying politicians should not be surprised when their constituents get angry.

time to put the dems on the hot seat and let them speak...they can only hurt themselves...I don't want the extremists mobs of revolting peasants force these meetings to shut down, and the donks will cut and run...it's touch and go right now

65 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:03:53am

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

When ever it happens? And it happens on both sides. That's what makes it freedom of speech.

In other words, a mob of angry people can come into a town hall meeting, make a giant disturbance and completely shut down the whole meeting -- and you'll call that "freedom of speech?"

66 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:01am

re: #53 MikeySDCA

OT: Has anybody wondered if Willy wore a wire to his powwow with Daffy Duck?

I heard he didn't complain when they strip searched him...

67 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:19am

re: #62 Banner

Funny, it was okay when the left did it. And they did it everywhere

No, it was NOT OK when the left did it. That's the whole freaking point.

68 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:21am

re: #61 Shiplord Kirel

(As usual, I was late in posting and missed the new thread where it might have been more appropriate.)


Worth reposting. Thanks.

69 KenJen  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:21am

No one should come out of a town hall meeting with a torn shirt and bloody scratches like the guy on the video Charles put up yesterday. It's pathetic.

70 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:24am

re: #55 lurking faith

Who really cares what the word is, or who is applying it to who on a specific day? It's just a silly semantic game. The priorities are stopping the Health Care disaster from becoming reality and stopping the beatings by union members. The rest of it will be spun beyond recognition, but those are two concrete goals that should be the focus.

71 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:24am

2009: when conservatives started acting like Democrats.

72 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:33am

re: #43 Charles

Those are good questions -- but none of the people disrupting these meetings have any interest whatsoever in asking any real questions, or engaging in any debate. It's thuggish behavior, encouraged by irresponsible idiots like Hannity and Beck.

It would depend on what you mean by disrupting. If a person asks a question, especially in a time allotted for such questions, that can't be considered a disruption.

Some of the behavior is completely thuggish and should not be encouraged. But I can't agree with the broad use of none in "none of the people disrupting these meetings . . . " unless we understand what constitutes a disruption.

73 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:53am

re: #16 Silvergirl

And then there's the Dem. Rep. David Scott from Georgia who had a meltdown and yelled at his constituents when one was being polite asking a health care question. It wasn't a health care meeting, but Scott objected on those grounds way out of proportion. If these are the instructions for countering disruptions, there will be a price for it at the ballot box.

I just looked at the video on the front page.

The questioner was a physician who had called Scott's office several times to determine when there would be a healthcare forum. There is not going to be one. At the meeting where Scott's rant happened, questioning was opened up for any topic. So, the doctor politely asked about healthcare. That was when Scott went on his tirade.

74 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:04:57am

re: #65 Charles

In other words, a mob of angry people can come into a town hall meeting, make a giant disturbance and completely shut down the whole meeting -- and you'll call that "freedom of speech?"

Uh huh.

75 windsword  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:05:49am

Union thugs vs. Everyday citizens.

I wonder whose initiated most of their conflicts?

76 WinterCat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:05:51am

I am not condoning the out of hand behavior of some of the folks who are attending the town halls. However, I have been to lots of town meetings in my little hamlet and I can assure you, tempers flare and there is shouting at times.

But, here's an example of a citizen (a doctor) asking a legitimate question in a reasonable and respectful manner and here's the response from his Congressman. Not exactly the picture of cool either, I'd say.
Scott melts down.

77 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:06:13am

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

So- fuck the other person's right to speak? You're right to riot trumps their right to hold a meeting?

78 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:07:27am

re: #67 Charles

No, it was NOT OK when the left did it. That's the whole freaking point.

Duh! I suppose we're supposed to pay the left back by acting like them? That makes a lot of sense.

79 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:07:35am

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

When ever it happens? And it happens on both sides. That's what makes it freedom of speech.

NO, Walter, you are dead wrong. Freedom of speech does not include the right to suppress the speech of others, which is what you are doing when you shout down a recognized speaker at an organized gathering. This kind of conduct is the opposite of free speech. Do nutballs have the right to disrupt Congressional debates or Supreme Court sessions? Larry Flynt thought so, the justices disagreed and tossed him in prison for contempt.

80 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:07:38am

Shouting down the presenter at a town hall won't convince anyone of your argument.

81 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:07:50am

"cement the impression that the right wing is going dangerously nuts."

Heck I thought the same about the Dems for the last eight years and it didn't hinder the fact that their nutty candidates were elected. These people are not nuts who are attending the town halls meetings, I think they are angry folks. I'd rather have an angry Republican on my team and in office then a nutty Democrat any day! Besides, the Liberals push and push and push their agendas onto people (with the help of the MSM) and then ridicule them when they react to it some how. Forget understanding; just bash the reaction. (whatever it may be and it's never correct!).

82 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:08:18am

re: #65 Charles

In other words, a mob of angry people can come into a town hall meeting, make a giant disturbance and completely shut down the whole meeting -- and you'll call that "freedom of speech?"

It's the freedom to make a fool of yourself, it's the freedom to get arrested, it's the freedoms we all share.

Is it always good or does it always benefit us, no, but I am not going to let progressives shut us down just because it doesn't fit into their meme of what is proper speech or not.

Nope, freedom of speech doesn't always mean popular speech.

Image: rockwell_speech.jpg

83 realwest  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:08:23am

Well y'all it's been very interesting and very informative, but I gotta go now.
I hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

84 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:08:42am

re: #72 Silvergirl

It would depend on what you mean by disrupting. If a person asks a question, especially in a time allotted for such questions, that can't be considered a disruption.

Some of the behavior is completely thuggish and should not be encouraged. But I can't agree with the broad use of none in "none of the people disrupting these meetings . . . " unless we understand what constitutes a disruption.

What I mean by disrupting is on very clear display in the videos I've seen -- chanting slogans very loudly, screaming hysterically, interrupting speakers continuously, acting belligerently. A whole lot of people came to those events intending nothing but to shut them down.

85 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:08:52am

Aside from the rude and boorish behavior there's another problem. The protesters are poorly informed. They show up screaming about how Obama is going to execute old people. They just come off looking like lunatics.

86 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:09:08am

re: #79 Shiplord Kirel

NO, Walter, you are dead wrong. Freedom of speech does not include the right to suppress the speech of others, which is what you are doing when you shout down a recognized speaker at an organized gathering. This kind of conduct is the opposite of free speech. Do nutballs have the right to disrupt Congressional debates or Supreme Court sessions? Larry Flynt thought so, the justices disagreed and tossed him in prison for contempt.

Nope, freedom of speech doesn't always mean popular speech.

87 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:09:18am

re: #77 Sharmuta

So- fuck the other person's right to speak? You're right to riot trumps their right to hold a meeting?

Nope, freedom of speech doesn't always mean popular speech.

88 rwmofo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:09:22am

It seems the only thing the NY Times wishes they could report is "conservatives" physically assaulting people. Otherwise, they'll just lean toward conservatives being the root cause of these issues.

89 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:09:28am

re: #80 jaunte

Shouting down the presenter at a town hall won't convince anyone of your argument.

No, but it will convince yourself of how awesome you are!

90 dwells38  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:09:43am

I don't think many of these people care whether they convince anyone of anything. The fact is Obama and his liberal leaders that want this can't answer legitimate questions about their healthcare plan.

Obama makes bold statements that this must be passed quickly in order to save money and give better care. But when pressed for details and upon examining real numbers these statements are just empty words and laughably unrealistic projections. He says his plan will dramatically improve the current system without rationing, without limiting, without raising taxes. And then can't adequately explain remotely how that will come to pass while other more serious voices point out the obvious holes in his arguments.

If they were proposing something more reasonable and everyone knew it was reasonable and debatable it wouldn't tempt right-wing talk show hosts to get their more extreme listeners to go out and act like asses for the cameras.

91 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:09:47am

I'm not usually a fan of Lanny Davis, but he was on John Gibson's radio show yesterday and he made a lot of sense. He decried the use of violence and intimidation by the SEIU thugs, but also said the opponents of Obama need to have a discussion without shouting down their opponents.

92 mfarmer1  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:09:51am

I'm not so sure this isn't a bad idea. If the "mob" quietly sat there and asked pointed and well reasoned questions to these pricks from Congress, we'd hear a 10 minute non answer.

I'm actually finding it a bit humorous to see tactics used for decades by the "giant puppet" crowd turned on them for a change. Say what you will about the tactics, it has worked for the Democrat Party in general, bringing about disastrous fundamental changes to our nation through insane levels of bureaucratic expansion of government, etc., exactly as the progressives planned.

It's about time conservatives got back in their faces. In fact, this debate about healthcare wouldn't even be happening and we'd already have a bill passed had opponents of single payer politely stood around waiting for their turn at the podium between layers of purple shirted goons.

I think we'd all better get used to this and how to deal with it as the nation is broke, there's no way to pay for all of this crap, and a showdown of historical proportions is coming between the producers of wealth and those who contribute nothing.

And no, I'm not a Beckbot.

93 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:10:17am
94 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:10:26am

re: #79 Shiplord Kirel

NO, Walter, you are dead wrong. Freedom of speech does not include the right to suppress the speech of others, which is what you are doing when you shout down a recognized speaker at an organized gathering. This kind of conduct is the opposite of free speech. Do nutballs have the right to disrupt Congressional debates or Supreme Court sessions? Larry Flynt thought so, the justices disagreed and tossed him in prison for contempt.

Exactly. The place to protest is at a protest. If you can't behave yourself when the situation warrants civil behavior, you're a part of the problem.

95 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:10:31am

re: #21 Charles

Look -- the tea party groups are absolutely heavily promoting this mob behavior, and so is Glenn Beck. I don't know why you want to pretend it isn't happening.

I'd like to see civil conversations about this as much as anyone else. What I see developing, though, is a storyline that regardless of how many counter-examples are brought up, that the only problem with townhalls are those introduced by right-wing extremists.

We have a black conservative that is beaten by SEIU thugs.

Crickets.

We have people asking legitimate questions at townhalls that are belittled by elected officials.

Crickets.

We have elected Dem officials that re-frame their town halls as prayer vigils.

Crickets.

Mainstream town halls in Bush's term disrupted by shouters and interruptions. (I'm not talking Code Pink either, I'm talking about the Social Security townhalls attended by "mainstream" folks).

Crickets.

People tried other forms of protest. I think they called them tea parties. Now matter how many decent people attended those, they were painted as the lunatic fringe because it just so happened some fringe people showed up.

So now the option of offline protests is out the door because a bad guy might be there.

Could some of the townhalls be less disruptive? Absolutely. Would I like to see them less disruptive? Absolutely.

Do I wish the Dem thugs had not escalated this to the level of violence? Absolutely.

There are a lot of features to this debate.

96 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:10:38am
97 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:10:48am

re: #89 BigPapa

No, but it will convince yourself of how awesome you are!

That's the problem, it's just an emotional indulgence wearing the mask of political activism. It's not just useless, but counterproductive.

98 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:10:50am

re: #77 Sharmuta

Am I naive to think that some representative might convene a meeting and begin by asking, "Who's read HR-3200? What are your concerns? I'm probably going to have to vote on this in a few weeks and I need to know what you think about it. I'm hear to alleviate your concerns or to take them with me back to D.C."

I suppose, if that happened it wouldn't show up on YouTube.

All I'm seeing is House members who come home to say, "I'm here to feed you the party line so that the DNC will back me next fall..."

But, am I foolish to even hope for the former?

99 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:10:51am

re: #76 WinterCat

I am not condoning the out of hand behavior of some of the folks who are attending the town halls. However, I have been to lots of town meetings in my little hamlet and I can assure you, tempers flare and there is shouting at times.

But, here's an example of a citizen (a doctor) asking a legitimate question in a reasonable and respectful manner and here's the response from his Congressman. Not exactly the picture of cool either, I'd say.
Scott melts down.

pretty typical...and the donks are surprised at the reaction?...hold their feet to the fire and don't let up

100 sngnsgt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:11:09am

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

When ever it happens? And it happens on both sides. That's what makes it freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech includes volume. /

101 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:11:21am
When these Tea Partiers and Glenn Beck drones charge into town hall meetings, shout down speakers, and act like angry children throwing tantrums, they achieve nothing but to further cement the impression that the right wing is going dangerously nuts.

Absolutely.

102 KenJen  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:11:31am

re: #80 jaunte

Shouting down the presenter at a town hall won't convince anyone of your argument.

Thousands of people standing in silence with signs reading "We don't want the Bill" would make a better statement.

103 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:11:41am

It's all Beck & Hannity's fault.
/

104 JRHelgeson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:11:41am

Hang on here - These town halls were not violent or out of control until Obama dispatched the SEIU and ACORN thugs. Prior to their involvement, the people in the town hall would challenge the lies as soon as the speaker said them. The attendees would not accept a false premise upon which they could start building their argument. So- what do you do once your audience challenges every lie and prevents the establishment of a false premises?

You cancel the meeting, Like the AARP did, the reps walked out, and came back in to disconnect the microphone and take it with them so that the AARP members could not continue the meeting in spite of it being canceled.

You claim that they are showing up with swastikas like Nancy Pelosi did. You smear and discredit the people who oppose you, then you have union thugs and acorn nuts show up as the brute squad in order to shut us up... so then what. Are we then just supposed to shut up? Are we now supposed to just let them build their false premises and lie to our faces and just take it?

Charles? Really? Just shut up and drink the kool-aid?

105 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:11:57am

re: #94 Sharmuta

Exactly. The place to protest is at a protest. If you can't behave yourself when the situation warrants civil behavior, you're a part of the problem.

It's hard to hold a public meeting meeting without the public.

106 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:12:01am

re: #70 Lincolntf

Words matter. Words mean things. When you say "mob," people think of violence and intimidation.

And when leaders or would-be leaders invite people to become a mob, they are inciting violence.

And that's a fact.

107 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:12:46am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck, Freedom Works, et al are the same people who turned the Tea Parties into such an embarrassing debacle. They failed to denounce White Supremacists and extremists. They even spoke out in support of the dick who circulated the racist Obama-witch doctor email on their mailing list. Why continue to support their events? It's only going to lead to more embarrassment.

I updinged what you said, but I want to add something. Yes, they should have denounced the witch doctor thing immediately and unequivocally. Many of these events are embarrassing and poorly organized and handled. On both sides.

The questions of continuing to support their events has me thinking. Some people are using the opportunity to act on their individual beliefs and let their voice be heard and they're not part of a mob. It's easy for some for you who have not made a decision on whether you support government run health care. If you're on the fence over it, or if you full out support it, you definitely see nothing but embarrassment. Some of these people are desperate because they believe it's a real danger ahead. The trouble comes when they let their desperation rule their actions.

108 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:12:57am

Since when is agitation and obstruction considered by free speech?

109 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:13:05am

These are typical regular folk without a voice who are only now gaining one.

110 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:13:07am

re: #103 unrealizedviewpoint

It's all Beck & Hannity's fault.
/

I blame Rush (it rhymes with Bush, rolls right off the tounge).
/

111 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:13:12am

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

Nope, freedom of speech doesn't always mean popular speech.

You are now arguing that you do, in fact, have the right to deny others their right to speak. Which is it, Walter, are you for or against the First Amendment?

There is no freedom to be arrested, btw. What kind of nonsense is that? Being arrested for an act is the very definition of not having the freedom to do it.

112 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:13:18am

Glenn Reynolds at the Washington Examiner

On March 16, USA Today reported that Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum "was among dozens of members of Congress who ran gantlets of demonstrators and shouted over hecklers at Social Security events last month. Many who showed up to protest were alerted by e-mails and bused in by anti-Bush organizations such as MoveOn.org and USAction, a liberal advocacy group. They came with prepared questions and instructions on how to confront lawmakers."

This was just good, boisterous politics: "Robust, wide-open debate." But when it happens to Democrats, it's something different: A threat to democracy, a sign of incipient fascism, and an opportunity to set up a (possibly illegal) White House "snitch line" where people are encouraged to report "fishy" statements to the authorities.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi calls the "Tea Party" protesters Nazis, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman --forgetting the events above -- claims that left-leaning groups never engaged in disruptive tactics against Social Security reform, and various other administration-supporting pundits are trying to spin the whole thing as a deadly move toward "mob rule" and – somewhat contradictorily -- as a phony "astroturf" movement.

Remember: When lefties do it, it's called "community organizing." When conservatives and libertarians do it, it's "astroturf."
But some people are noticing the truth. As Mickey Kaus notes, "If an 'astroturfing' campaign gets real people to show up at events stating their real views, isn't it ... community organizing?" Why yes, yes it is.

As someone who's been following the Tea Party campaign since the beginning, it seems to me to be the most genuine outbreak of grassroots popular involvement in my lifetime. People have been turning out, in the tens of thousands at times, because they feel that Obama pulled a bait-and-switch and is moving the country much farther to the left than he promised during the campaign.

113 JRHelgeson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:13:20am

re: #65 Charles

Yes, Charles, that is exactly what that is. Read my note above.

114 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:14:15am

My theory for what it's worth: "Healthcare Reform" will pass in some form. What that form is remains to be seen but I think it is going to be as socialist as the dems can get it. They are going to justify these actions by the loons and rioters who disrupted the meetings; in other words, another "vast right wing conspiracy" seasoned with violence.

Peaceful protests work much better then angry people shouting at congressmen. Gandi and MLK both proved this point. If we want to voice our opinions, well worded letters, emails and phone calls will suffice coupled with a peaceful demonstration of our rights and a presence at the voting booth. Our system is not amenable to "mob" rule; it shuns it with extreme prejudice. Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the congressional flunkies up there will get there way. We'll be saddled with horrible care while they sit in their ivory tower and tell us to pipe down.

I'll blame Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh for marginalizing the right wing to the point of impotence. Thanks guys, I hope you enjoy your ratings while we suffer from your ill conceived and ill thought out decisions.

115 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:14:22am

re: #25 SlartyBartfast

I'll probably review some of the town hall videos just to confirm but, IIRC the "eruptions" tend to immediately follow some outrageous statement (i.e., bald-faced lie).

That's a lie. View the videos. In some of them, people showed up and started chanting TYRANNY, TYRANNY, TYRANNY, before any speaker said a word. In several, the screaming and booing drowns out the speakers. In nearly all, screaming, booing, and chanting takes place when the speakers says something true, like "we're not going to have a single payer plan".

It's out of control. I thought that video of Crazy Eileen, the nirther screaming "I want my country back!" at a townhall was bad. Then I thought the video of a mob chasing a Rep and chanting the pledge of allegiance was worse. This is just unbelievable.

116 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:14:22am

uh oh

*putting on helmet, in case of flying shrapnel*

117 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:14:28am

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

It's hard to hold a public meeting meeting without the public.

There are exactly ZERO town hall meetings scheduled for Las Vegas. Reid is a punk.

118 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:14:44am

re: #98 SlartyBartfast

When we start electing representatives instead of party members, perhaps you will get your wish. Why people are surprised that democrats would sell democrat legislation to the electorate is beyond me. That's what politicians always do- you folks are just noticing?

119 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:14:52am

I've watched quite a few of these townhall videos, and it seems always that someone asks the Congressman a polite question. He responds with evasion, some clearly false answer, or some statement just plain stupid. At which point, people groan or laugh or boo or shout something ilke "liar!" or "shame!" or all of the above. Then the Congressman tries to defend his ill-taken ground, and that's when people get angry and start shouting more. There seems to be always plenty of police present and no physical violence INSIDE THE MEETING ROOM. This is not "mob" behavior. This is just raucus refusal to accept evasion or lies. I have not seen groups "shout down" their Congressman -- on the contrary, they are TRYING to get answers him, but they respond angrily when he evades or clearly lies.

120 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:14:53am

re: #104 JRHelgeson

Charles? Really? Just shut up and drink the kool-aid?

Don't be ridiculous.

121 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:15:00am

re: #109 unrealizedviewpoint

These are typical regular folk without a voice who are only now gaining one.

That's all good, but when they act like children the behavior clouds the message. The leftist agitators of the last 10 years come to mind. The point is, don't act like that.

122 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:15:01am

Interesting to note. It was the progressives who tagged these people "the mob" and now a week later, someone in the crowd takes up that meme and uses it.

It sarcasm and satire.

123 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:15:05am

I don't credit Glen Beck for all of this. He's more like the oxpecker bird riding on a rhinoceros. He's not steering.

124 voirdire  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:15:22am

If this legislation were left to Obama there would now be nothing to talk,
yell, discuss, scream or spit about. It would be history. It's totally
disingenuous for the left to cry and whine about "having a discussion" on
healthcare. When they thought they didn't need it, they didn't want it.
Next, they won't discuss it unless everyone sits down and quietly listens to the lecture with a few polite and scripted questions after, viz the Gibbs Method. I'm pretty sure that if someone came forward and said, "I've Read It!" people would be happy to hear it.

125 jones  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:15:41am

I think mob is used the same way as pajamas.

I agree there is a thin line between theater and boorishness, but to draw the Left into thugaree and hiding is a good strategy. Though one with risks.

126 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:15:46am

re: #97 jaunte

That's the problem, it's just an emotional indulgence wearing the mask of political activism. It's not just useless, but counterproductive.

Exactly right. It's sheer childish acting out.

127 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:15:58am

When people don't listen somehow the volume in the room tends to increase.

128 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:16:24am

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

Uh huh.

The freedom to say what one please implies a freedom to have it heard. Those hearing it are also free to reject it, ignore it or oppose it. But shouting down the speaker so their point of view is prevented from even being aired is repugnant and a gross violation of Constitutional rights.

Note that I've condemned the Left for years for employing similar tactics, for the very same reason. I can't condone embargoing ideas from the marketplace. People need to have the freedom to buy them, or not. Slamming the door shut and preventing them from being heard at all is odious.

Note that it's just as odious for the government to state that they will go forward and pass legislation without listening to what their constituents say. That doesn't make it acceptable to up the ante and prevent them from presenting their side of the argument, although they certainly deserve to be called out for their own transgressions.

129 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:16:46am

re: #111 Shiplord Kirel

You are now arguing that you do, in fact, have the right to deny others their right to speak. Which is it, Walter, are you for or against the First Amendment?

There is no freedom to be arrested, btw. What kind of nonsense is that? Being arrested for an act is the very definition of not having the freedom to do it.

I have the right to try. Now where here this morning have I said it's the right thing to do, that it is the best thing to do, or that it works out for the best.

But, yes, I have the right. And it may backfire, but I have the right.

130 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:17:17am

re: #121 BigPapa

That's all good, but when they act like children the behavior clouds the message. The leftist agitators of the last 10 years come to mind. The point is, don't act like that.

Yeah, well, at the next meeting meeting I'll sit granddad down and explain to him rules of debate.

131 dddave  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:17:46am

The false assumption is protestors are showing up at town hall meetings for a DEBATE. The reality is protestors are showing up at the meetings to TELL congress they are tired of the BS. NO government health care, NO cap and tax, NO more bailouts. There is no DEBATE. Congress and the MSM just haven't figured this part out yet or they are ignoring it. Main street americans are fed up. They will understand it clearly as this escalates.

132 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:18:13am

re: #115 iceweasel

In some of them, people showed up and started chanting TYRANNY, TYRANNY, TYRANNY, before any speaker said a word.

Heh, a little irony? LOL

133 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:18:20am

re: #107 Silvergirl

Good points. It's easy to participate in these town hall meetings. If you show up with 100 other angry people chanting and waving signs they might not let you in. If you show, act normal, say, "Hello, is this the town hall meeting on health care?" they'll almost certainly let you in. Wait your turn to speak, ask you question, listen to the response, then sit back down. No problem.
If you start screaming like a maniac they'll throw you out. It's very simple.

134 Kitty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:18:34am

re: #93 unrealizedviewpoint

Thank you!!! That was the best laugh that I have had in days!!!

135 voirdire  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:18:35am

There is no debate.

136 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:18:39am

re: #84 Charles

What I mean by disrupting is on very clear display in the videos I've seen -- chanting slogans very loudly, screaming hysterically, interrupting speakers continuously, acting belligerently. A whole lot of people came to those events intending nothing but to shut them down.

Thanks for the full description. It's true.

"A whole lot of people came to those events intending nothing but to shut them down" is a more clear statement than "none of the people disrupting these meetings have any interest whatsoever in asking any real questions, or engaging in any debate."

137 neobuzz  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:18:50am

Charles,

Are you joking?

This is what we used to call “political theater,” way back when I was of the left. What we are witnessing is, without a doubt, great political theater. And now the left thinks they have upped the ante by calling out their union goons, but they have really played right into the hands of Beck, Hannity, et. al. They might as well have called in the National Guard. I don’t even like those conservative bombasts of the airwaves, but they have very successfully stolen a page from the liberal “community organizing” playbook.

Ask yourself, Charles, who’s “The Man” now?

Neobuzz

138 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:18:55am

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Aside from the rude and boorish behavior there's another problem. The protesters are poorly informed. They show up screaming about how Obama is going to execute old people. They just come off looking like lunatics.

Absolutely. Medicare recipients screaming hysterically about how they don't want government health care.

It would be laughable if there weren't people leaving death threats on answering machines and telling people to bring weapons to townhall meetings and use physical violence.

(PS -- switched the links there, i think)

139 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:19:06am

re: #128 SixDegrees

The freedom to say what one please implies a freedom to have it heard. Those hearing it are also free to reject it, ignore it or oppose it. But shouting down the speaker so their point of view is prevented from even being aired is repugnant and a gross violation of Constitutional rights.

Note that I've condemned the Left for years for employing similar tactics, for the very same reason. I can't condone embargoing ideas from the marketplace. People need to have the freedom to buy them, or not. Slamming the door shut and preventing them from being heard at all is odious.

Note that it's just as odious for the government to state that they will go forward and pass legislation without listening to what their constituents say. That doesn't make it acceptable to up the ante and prevent them from presenting their side of the argument, although they certainly deserve to be called out for their own transgressions.

No, it has more to do with manners then rights if you shout someone down. There is no law saying I can't shout someone down.

And, if I am at a private meeting, or any meeting where that is deemed improper, than the shouter will probably be stopped.

140 WinterCat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:19:13am

re: #99 albusteve

pretty typical...and the donks are surprised at the reaction?...hold their feet to the fire and don't let up

He wasn't holding the guy's feet to the fire. He asked a question. A straightforward question. And the Congressman flipped out. In part, I assume, because the Congressman was expecting to be hit with the same type of yelling antics that many others have faced in recent days. I think the prospect this happening in his meeting made him a bit edgy.

The frustration on the part of many of the folks who are going to these meetings is that the answers they get are largely hogwash talking points and they are just not buying them. I don't have a problem with people pushing for a straight answer or groaning occasionally to demonstrate their displeasure but I really have a problem with the chanting and banging on the doors stuff.

141 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:19:25am

re: #131 dddave

The false assumption is protestors are showing up at town hall meetings for a DEBATE. The reality is protestors are showing up at the meetings to TELL congress they are tired of the BS. NO government health care, NO cap and tax, NO more bailouts. There is no DEBATE. Congress and the MSM just haven't figured this part out yet or they are ignoring it. Main street americans are fed up. They will understand it clearly as this escalates.

Put the congress critters with a "will work for food sign" on a freeway ramp near you in '10.

142 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:19:27am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

Interesting to note. It was the progressives who tagged these people "the mob" and now a week later, someone in the crowd takes up that meme and uses it.

It sarcasm and satire.

It would work better as such if they weren't really acting like a mob. Our "Lizardoid" theme, for example, works as satire and sarcasm because, well, we aren't really reptilian invaders from outer space. (At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

143 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:19:29am

re: #131 dddave

The reality is protestors are showing up at the meetings to TELL congress they are tired of the BS.

Thats what elections are for.

144 sngnsgt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:19:54am

re: #117 VegasRick

There are exactly ZERO town hall meetings scheduled for Las Vegas. Reid is a punk.

Purge the punk!

Would-be Reid opponent files paperwork to run

A Wall Street banker who's considering running against Sen. Harry Reid has filed candidate paperwork with the Federal Election Commission.

John Chachas, an Ely native who's now a banking executive in New York, filed a "Statement of Candidacy" and "Statement of Organization" earlier this week, signaling that he's likely to get into the race.

The paperwork reveals that Chachas has reserved a Web address for his campaign, chachasfornevada.com, but the site isn't up yet.

Chachas is one of several Republicans who have been in conversations with local and national Republicans about taking on Reid, who's seen as vulnerable in his 2010 re-election race but hasn't yet drawn a clear GOP opponent.

Throw the bum out!

145 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:20:05am

re: #130 unrealizedviewpoint

Yeah, well, at the next meeting meeting I'll sit granddad down and explain to him rules of debate.

That might be necessary if his hearing aid is not calibrated properly!

146 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:20:24am

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Aside from the rude and boorish behavior there's another problem. The protesters are poorly informed. They show up screaming about how Obama is going to execute old people. They just come off looking like lunatics.

The right to free speech has nothing to do with being informed.

147 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:20:38am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

Interesting to note. It was the progressives who tagged these people "the mob" and now a week later, someone in the crowd takes up that meme and uses it.

It sarcasm and satire.

148 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:20:41am

re: #138 iceweasel

Absolutely. Medicare recipients screaming hysterically about how they don't want government health care.

It would be laughable if there weren't people leaving death threats on answering machines and telling people to bring weapons to townhall meetings and use physical violence.

(PS -- switched the links there, i think)

...and the real source of the problem is that only lefty sites are pointing that out. Conservatives have no interest in keeping their house clean.

149 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:21:05am

re: #123 Mich-again

I don't credit Glen Beck for all of this. He's more like the oxpecker bird riding on a rhinoceros. He's not steering.

That is one interesting visual, even if I don't know what an oxpecker bird is, and possible don't want to know. :-)

150 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:21:07am

Maybe they are shouting because their health care plan doesn't cover hearing aids?
/

151 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:21:17am

re: #141 jcm

Put the congress critters with a "will work for food sign" on a freeway ramp near you in '10.

"Will WHAT for food" ?
They're gonna STARVE !

152 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:21:28am

Does anybody use Roberts Rules of Order any more? Wouldn't it be nice if that were being promoted by organizers of new political groups, instead of "They did it, now it's our turn!"?

153 rwmofo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:21:32am

I think these conservative "mobs," in the end, will have positive results. The real issue is losing our control over our health-care. The MSM portrays it their way (Surprise!), but legislation has been postponed and maybe shelved.

154 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:21:38am

re: #137 neobuzz

I see- so when the left uses these tactics it's bad and evil, but when the right co-opts them it's hunky-dorey. I believe it's called hypocrisy.

155 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:21:57am

re: #115 iceweasel

Offering my honest recollection is hardly lying! Sorry, but I haven't seen the "Tyranny! Tyranny!" video you mentioned. That's outrageous and counterproductive. Meanwhile, please see my #54 above.

(I have a perfect memory: I remember everything. It's the recall that's faulty.)

156 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:21:59am

Sleepers showing up now.

157 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:22:17am

re: #148 Killgore Trout

...and the real source of the problem is that only lefty sites are pointing that out. Conservatives have no interest in keeping their house clean.

Conservatives don't tend to jump to a 1984 sort of answer every time someone is effecting their freedom of speech.

158 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:22:26am

Nazis, extremists, out of control mobs rioting!...that's just over the top...these "childish", boisterous, raucous are definately having an effect...if it's making conservatives look bad that's pretty much a subjective call...the dems are looking far far worse...union thugs and and a lack of coherent presentation and answers is pretty obvious

159 hopperandadropper  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:22:49am

I don't agree with the over-the-top behavior of some of these people, but there is a genuine sense of desperation among many. The Dems have already jammed a huge "stimulus" bill down our throats with little debate, little transparency as to the content of the bill, and far-reaching consequences that will be very hard to undo. They are trying to do the same with with the cap-and-trade bill which is really just a massive tax on everything. Now they want to reorder a huge sector of the economy using the same tactics, and they're lying about their real goal which is to establish a government-run single-payer system resembling those in Europe and Canada. It's no wonder people are angry. If the proponents of "health care reform" were truly interested in reasoned debate and civil discourse they wouldn't be taking the approach they're taking.

160 DistantThunder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:23:03am

I see this with a different perspective. With my counselor training I recognize a pattern.

Two people are in an abusive domestic relationship. One person, ususally the man, hold significantly more power than the other. Usually the woman tries to calmly assert herself and gets intimidated, threatened and sometimes beaten. He calls her names and reminds him he is in charge. She intensifies her efforts to communicate, he intensifies his efforts to control, and break her.

She makes a final decision, to stand up to the abuser regardless of the cost. This takes enormous courage, because she knows what she's up against, and realizes that she's taking a huge risk because he is so much more powerful. Sometimes she is taking her life in her hands.

When she finally does take the big step, and stand up to him, she will often seem extreme, loud, over-reactive. If it happens in public, the abuser will look around at his friends and say, "See how crazy she is. See what I have to put up with?" But he has already pushed and her and pushed her and humilitated her, and demeaned her, and mentally tortured her and frightened her. Her reaction makes sense in the light of all abuse that has already transpired.

I believe we are in an economically abusive relationship with our government, and we are trying to change course. The extreme emotion is the natural effect of people who believe they are being railroaded. They are not getting into the boxcars without a "fight."

161 WinterCat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:23:07am

re: #150 Mich-again

Maybe they are shouting because their health care plan doesn't cover hearing aids?
/

lol

162 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:23:22am

re: #156 Charles

Sleepers showing up now.

OK, I did sleep in a little...

/

163 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:23:43am

re: #158 albusteve

if it's making conservatives look bad that's pretty much a subjective call...the dems are looking far far worse...union thugs and and a lack of coherent presentation and answers is pretty obvious

No, the dems are not looking worse. Not by a long shot.

164 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:23:53am

re: #144 sngnsgt

Throw the bum out!

Another one today. Danny Tarkanian. We will get POS Reid out in 2010.

165 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:23:55am

re: #149 Silvergirl

Here is a picture.

166 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:24:03am

re: #44 SixDegrees

A further question: given that the figures for the uninsured being tossed about - 30 to 40 million - are true, we now have a private-sector system that covers around 90% of the population. Why is is necessary to junk that entire system and turn every aspect of health care over to government control? Why have no solutions based in the private sector been put forward? Is it really necessary to completely retool a system from top to bottom that has such a stunning success rate in the first place?

For the same reason we scrapped a mortgage system in which over 90% of poeple paid their mortgages on time. Tom Sowell noted that we are replacing things that work with things that don't work. That's why.

167 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:24:08am

re: #149 Silvergirl

That is one interesting visual, even if I don't know what an oxpecker bird is, and possible don't want to know. :-)

They eat insects off the rhino's hide. Their agitation also warns the rhino (which is near-sighted) of approaching danger. Something of a symbiotic relationship.

168 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:24:51am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

Interesting to note. It was the progressives who tagged these people "the mob" and now a week later, someone in the crowd takes up that meme and uses it.

It sarcasm and satire.

And yet, that's not how the media and the Left will portray it. They will call them the mob - without the slightest hint of sarcasm and satire.

Iowahawk deals in sarcasm and satire. The NYT, WSJ, and the big media (AP, Reuters, and all the rest including tv networks) don't. They'll simply parrot the words mob and mentality, culling the most extreme examples to "prove" their point.

Never mind that most of these meetings are tense but otherwise peaceful. Never mind that the Representatives are usually evasive and ignore the questions (such as those posed above).

Never mind that there is serious opposition as shown by multiple polls.

The GOP and opposition will be the ones branded extremists and the Democrats will use this to their advantage.

I don't have all the answers on this, but one way to handle this is when these jokers in Congress get evasive, to stand up and turn their back in silent protest. Then let someone else ask the same questions that were evaded - and them too to do the same (turn back). I think that might have a more powerful effect than the mob mentality we're seeing (even though screaming and shouting can be cathartic).

And therein lies the reason we're seeing so much anger and shouting. It's cathartic to the right. Here's an issue on which the Democrats are really going to ram through change that few want (bipartisan opposition since most people are satisfied with their own care and don't want to see their personal options limited). And there's little the GOP can do to stop it (Democrats have the numbers).

This is an issue that conservatives need to break through to conservative and moderates - particularly Democrat moderates and conservatives - to demand the left back down in a big way.

I just don't see it happening. Health care reform is going to happen; the only question is how bad it's going to get (and I think it's going to be bad regardless of what form is passed).

169 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:25:40am

A cynic would give up trying to restrain the mob and start selling pitchforks.

170 Drider  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:25:55am

I don't know if you noticed but at the moment the American people are being ruled over and ignored.
This has been an ongoing fiasco that started with TARP which opened the door for the complete take over of private industries industries ala the car industry, was done to pay off political allies via historic and blatant gutting of our Capitalist system that completely screwed over investors to hand the industry to the union...American people see that and are pissed off to no avail.

The banks have been taken over and the American people realize that this take over will be a permanent takeover, instead of a temporary move to get cash flowing again...American people see this and are pissed off to no avail.

Stimulus bills are being piled up one after another but they don't stimulate because they won't spend a vast majority of the money for another year on out...American people see this and are pissed off to no avail.

Nobody in the house or senate is reading these massive bills before signing them into law and this has "really" been pissing off the American people, who watch our "rulers" make wise cracks and flippant remarks on not having to read the bills they are cramming through.

The heath bill is the nail in the coffin and the American people know it. It is basically a one party system now and that system is Socialism, all of these bills are obviously designed to usher out our Capitalist system and rush in a Socialist system...American people see this and are pissed off to no avail.

This mob mentality did not spring up over night, it has taken time and a ton of fear to manifest itself, it isn't what one would call a productive way of solving or stopping this unvarnished sludge hammer approach to "change" but if you noticed, it is the only way people have left to be heard.

Please don't tell me that folks thought that the switch from Capitalism to Socialism would go off without some major pain, it's just now starting IMHO.

The vast majority of American people love their Country as it is and always was and want nothing to do with Communism's weak sister.

171 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:26:07am

re: #156 Charles

Sleepers showing up now.

Per up-thread, my helmet's on, in case of shrapnel.

I've got a sheet of 3/4" plywood in the laundry room. Should I put it in front of the monitor?

172 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:26:14am

I say it's time for Congress to begin listening to their constituents. Maybe it will take a little noise.

173 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:26:17am

re: #163 Charles

No, the dems are not looking worse. Not by a long shot.

Serious question. What do you think are the major causes for deterioration of support for Obamacare in the polls, which show public approval cratering. What is happening that is driving those numbers down in your opinion?

174 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:26:33am

re: #169 Sharmuta

A cynic would give up trying to restrain the mob and start selling pitchforks.

[Link: www.onlinetuningfork.com...]

175 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:26:58am
176 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:26:59am

A little OT: has any congresscritter with half a brain tried to put forth a balanced budget amendment? I think a lot of American, left and right, would support at least the government having to balance the checkbook every year.

177 DistantThunder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:27:17am

re: #40 Ringo the Gringo

Not all of the behavior of the Obamacare opponents fits the description of a mob. The AARP Townhall in Dallas a few days ago comes to mind.

[Video]

I saw this earlier and it brought tears to my eyes. What great people we have in our country. And what small-mind pinched bureaucrats want to control and dictate to us. The AARP speaker rwas highly insulting when she kept repeating "I think we can all agree..." followed by some controversial position. She was obnoxious.

178 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:27:34am

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

No, it has more to do with manners then rights if you shout someone down. There is no law saying I can't shout someone down.

And, if I am at a private meeting, or any meeting where that is deemed improper, than the shouter will probably be stopped.

In that case, it is perfectly reasonable for the government to conduct it's business without debate and without ever allowing the opposition to be heard, or without even bothering to explain it's own position.

179 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:27:43am

re: #176 Jetpilot1101

A little OT: has any congresscritter with half a brain tried to put forth a balanced budget amendment? I think a lot of American, left and right, would support at least the government having to balance the checkbook every year.

Until they found out "it'll raise my taxes!"

180 WinterCat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:28:08am

re: #148 Killgore Trout

...and the real source of the problem is that only lefty sites are pointing that out. Conservatives have no interest in keeping their house clean.

In all due respect, while I agree with some comments you make, I don't think they liberals can claim any trophy's for this either.

The problem is that these "in your face" tactics work for the short run. They have worked for the left for years and now the right is pulling them. I wish to god that they would both stop this crap but they won't. Every time one group does something the other group ups the ante. And I am afraid it is going to get a whole lot worse until the whole damn thing devolves.

181 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:28:12am

re: #171 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Per up-thread, my helmet's on, in case of shrapnel.

I've got a sheet of 3/4" plywood in the laundry room. Should I put it in front of the monitor?

No need you just need the right clean up tools!

182 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:28:19am

So, if the conservative roots act like leftist agitators to beat them at their own game, they make the leftist agitators act more like leftist agitators, thereby gaining moral authority on an issue?

Not a good idea.

183 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:28:40am

re: #111 Shiplord Kirel

You are now arguing that you do, in fact, have the right to deny others their right to speak. Which is it, Walter, are you for or against the First Amendment?

There is no freedom to be arrested, btw. What kind of nonsense is that? Being arrested for an act is the very definition of not having the freedom to do it.

I don't steadfastly stand by your last part. I believe much was accomplished for civil rights by brave people who acted on their beliefs knowing full well they would be arrested. The freedom came later. For the most part, they did it right in that movement.

184 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:29:02am

re: #175 MandyManners

What she said.



This clip IS the debate changer.

185 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:29:05am

re: #176 Jetpilot1101

A little OT: has any congresscritter with half a brain tried to put forth a balanced budget amendment? I think a lot of American, left and right, would support at least the government having to balance the checkbook every year.

And come up with a plan to pay down the debt and unfunded mandates within that budget.

186 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:29:08am

re: #168 lawhawk

And yet, that's not how the media and the Left will portray it. They will call them the mob - without the slightest hint of sarcasm and satire...

Thank you so much for seeing my point on the sarcasm. That's exactly what the person in the above article is doing, being sarcastic, and it is a nod to the progressives who started "the mob" meme.

The writer at the New York Times knows that, but it works to a progressives advantage to try and turn this into an issue.

Turnaround is fair play.

187 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:29:18am

re: #179 jaunte

Until they found out "it'll raise my taxes!"

That's my point. Once America figures out that the government is pending beyond it's means and it begins to affect the checkbooks of all americans, most of the sitting congressmen and women will be staking out real estate on a street corner.

188 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:29:35am

re: #166 debutaunt

For the same reason we scrapped a mortgage system in which over 90% of poeple paid their mortgages on time. Tom Sowell noted that we are replacing things that work with things that don't work. That's why.

We are replacing things that are 90% efficient with things that are 100% inefficient. Equality!

189 sngnsgt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:29:45am

re: #164 VegasRick

Another one today. Danny Tarkanian. We will get POS Reid out in 2010.

Jerry's kid (no not Lewis) has a big NV name behind him, hopefully that will turn into votes.

190 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:29:55am

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

Conservatives don't tend to jump to a 1984 sort of answer every time someone is effecting their freedom of speech.

Oh bullshit. I find the canonisation of one's own side just as tiresome, and inaccurate, as the demonisation of the other.

Run with this mythology if you like, but you're bleating a very Orwellian theme, albeit Animal Farm and not 1984: Two legs good, four legs bad!

191 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:30:24am

re: #168 lawhawk

I agree with most of what you say except the part about the media. There isn't much dramatizing they need to do in this situation. The raw videos Charles has linked speak for themselves, and "mob mentality" is exactly what I would call it.

192 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:30:28am

re: #181 jcm

No need you just need the right clean up tools!

GET YOUR WINDOWASHER OUTTA HERE!
/... :D ... I looked at the URL before I clicked

193 dwells38  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:30:44am

re: #158 albusteve

Yes it surprised me that while saying one side is unreasonable the Dems sent out union goons to rough people up and confront the unreasonable protesters.

Unreasonable protesting quickly escalated to physical confrontations and beat downs.

I think they should have let the asses make asses of themselves. They already know they have the MSM to dutifully ridicule and marginalize. Now they make them look like martyrs and victims of Obama's commie brown shirts.

Tells me they're a little panicky.

194 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:31:11am

re: #178 SixDegrees

In that case, it is perfectly reasonable for the government to conduct it's business without debate and without ever allowing the opposition to be heard, or without even bothering to explain it's own position.

They already do, what's the point.

195 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:31:18am
A volatile mix has resulted. In Mehlville, Mo., St. Louis County police officers arrested six people on Thursday evening, some on assault charges, outside a health care and aging forum organized by Representative Russ Carnahan, a Democrat. Opponents of the proposed changes, organized by the St. Louis Tea Party, apparently clashed with supporters organized by the Service Employees International Union outside a school gym.

I notice they do not mention who was hurt.

196 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:31:23am

re: #187 Jetpilot1101

It's been hard to talk them into term limits, much less accepting that there are limits on what we can spend.

197 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:31:26am

re: #169 Sharmuta

And torches. "Git yer torches!"

198 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:31:29am

re: #192 pre-Boomer Marine brat

GET YOUR WINDOWASHER OUTTA HERE!
/... :D ... I looked at the URL before I clicked

LOL!

You're getting smarter! ;-)

199 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:32:12am

re: #176 Jetpilot1101

A little OT: has any congresscritter with half a brain tried to put forth a balanced budget amendment? I think a lot of American, left and right, would support at least the government having to balance the checkbook every year.

I believe you're the only other person besides me that has even discussed the BBA.

200 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:32:13am

re: #196 jaunte

It's been hard to talk them into term limits, much less accepting that there are limits on what we can spend.

The taxpayer is a infinite milkcow as seen inside the beltway.

201 harpsicon  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:32:14am

Charles, in principal I totally agree with you.

But everybody has been noticing for years that the "shout-down" double-standard tactics have been very productive for the Left, even (especially) on campus, where such behavior should be the farthest from anybody's mind.

They get away with it because people are too polite, or too high-minded to reply in kind, and after a while, when there's no blowback and they win, the lesson is learned. They keep right on doing it, and keep winning.

So what's a conservative or classical liberal supposed to do? It has been pointed out that Gandhi was quite lucky to be going up against the British with his satyagraha; had it been Hitler or Stalin he would have simply disappeared. America isn't at all a brutal dictatorship, but it's hardly Marquis of Queensbury rules in our politics today either.

There needs to be some kind of muscular demonstration of people's feelings, at least in the sense of analogy. Waiting politely seems hardly likely to work in the face of Chicago community organizers working out of the Alinsky playbook. (Nor does it work in a lot of other aspects of our national life, but that would be another post...)

202 Flyers1974  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:32:17am

Regarding protests, it used to be that bad behavior was mostly perpetrated by the left-wing. Which would make sense because those protesters were mostly left-wing. Now for the first time, conservatives have fully embraced protesting as a tactic and are exhibiting the same behavior. And in analyizing that behavior, conservatives are acting just as the liberals did: Some are worried about the serious harm the protesters are doing to conservatism, and other conservatives are bending over backwards to explain how the behavior is justified because the cause is important, or otherwise distinguishable from the left-wings behavior.

203 kansas  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:32:28am

re: #195 FrogMarch

I notice they do not mention who was hurt.

Let's play, name that party.

204 KenJen  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:32:38am

re: #176 Jetpilot1101

A little OT: has any congresscritter with half a brain tried to put forth a balanced budget amendment? I think a lot of American, left and right, would support at least the government having to balance the checkbook every year.

No need for that. Pelosi implemented Pay-Go years ago. Remember?
//

205 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:33:22am

It only works to "sarcastically" claim a derogatory name like "mob" if you're NOT really acting like a mob.

206 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:33:38am

re: #204 KenJen

No need for that. Pelosi implemented Pay-Go years ago. Remember?
//

We pay, she goes...

207 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:33:45am

re: #175 MandyManners

What she said.

Sauce for the goosed.

208 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:34:07am

re: #155 SlartyBartfast

Offering my honest recollection is hardly lying! Sorry, but I haven't seen the "Tyranny! Tyranny!" video you mentioned. That's outrageous and counterproductive. Meanwhile, please see my #54 above.

(I have a perfect memory: I remember everything. It's the recall that's faulty.)

Tyranny!

(BTW, not accusing you personally of lying-- lots of lies are being repeated, and the vasy majority of people repeating them are doing so in good faith.)

209 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:34:13am

re: #190 iceweasel

Oh bullshit. I find the canonisation of one's own side just as tiresome, and inaccurate, as the demonisation of the other.

Run with this mythology if you like, but you're bleating a very Orwellian theme, albeit Animal Farm and not 1984: Two legs good, four legs bad!

Here is your mythology...

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

Sound a bit 1984'ish to me. Obama has the whole media at his beck and call to drive the conversation to the way he and the progressives want.

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

210 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:34:44am

re: #189 sngnsgt

Jerry's kid (no not Lewis) has a big NV name behind him, hopefully that will turn into votes.

BTW, where's the towel-chewer at now?

211 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:34:44am

The sad part is that now ANYBODY who goes to a protest or demonstration to show disapproval with ObamaCare and ANYBODY who goes to a townhall meeting and speaks up negatively about ObamaCare is going to be labeled a "mob," a "kook," a "right wing extremist" or some other nasty and dismissive term so that he/she and his/her opinion can be marginalized and ignored. This is the goal of the dems, it is the goal of the MSM, and PC-sensitive conservatives seem willing to go along with it.

The good news is that it probably won't work. The more people get insulted and marginalized, the more likely they are to remember that at the ballot box.

212 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:34:45am

There is no way to pin all of this anger on the right. These townhall meetings were meant to "rubber stamp" this BS socialized medical plan. The Obama administration underestimated the backlash. These people are not faking their anger and fear...it is real. Write it off as bunch Glen Beck supporters and idiot Tea Baggers at your own risk.

213 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:35:21am

On the front page here (with every other refresh) is an ad for 912dc.org, which, if you click on it, takes you to a page that includes as one of its sponsors this organization which produced this video.

It's got pitchforks and everything!

214 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:35:39am

re: #178 SixDegrees

In that case, it is perfectly reasonable for the government to conduct it's business without debate and without ever allowing the opposition to be heard, or without even bothering to explain it's own position.

"The debate is over".

215 rwmofo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:35:41am

re: #176 Jetpilot1101

A little OT: has any congresscritter with half a brain tried to put forth a balanced budget amendment? I think a lot of American, left and right, would support at least the government having to balance the checkbook every year.

Newt.

216 WinterCat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:35:41am

re: #168 lawhawk
I just have to upding you. Too bad I only get one.

217 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:35:48am

re: #196 jaunte

I don't think it will ever happen but it's nice to dream.

I've worked for the federal government for 15 years. With the exception of the military, you don't want the government running anything that affects your life. The problem is a complete lack of accountability rampant in all aspects of government. This is slowly creeping into the armed services which breaks my heart. The only cure for the problem is a complete house cleaning. Unfortunately, things sometimes have to get really bad for ordinary people before they wake up and smell the coffee (read standard of living drops significantly). I hope we don't see those times and people wake up before then but I'm not holding my breath.

218 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:36:38am

A BIG part of me doesn't mind seeing the pop-left's own totalitarian methodology turned against them; the mangy hippies and VC sympathizers of 40 years ago shouted down and abused when they put on suits and try to hold a townhall meeting.

The rational part of me, though, knows that it is wrong, and the wrong way to proceed as a political tactic.

219 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:36:51am

re: #213 wrenchwench

On the front page here (with every other refresh) is an ad for 912dc.org, which, if you click on it, takes you to a page that includes as one of its sponsors this organization which produced this video.


[Video]

It's got pitchforks and everything!

I'm blocking those ads as soon as Adsense comes out of maintenance mode today.

220 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:36:52am

Why are SEIU people there as SEIU representatives to begin with? Who sent them?

221 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:37:01am

re: #201 harpsicon

Look- we can't decry the thug tactics on the left and then hypocritically adopt them because we think they work. The reason why the right has lost is because it ceased being the party of the right, started spending like democrats. We did ourselves in with bad policies. Just because these tactics were used by the left doesn't mean they were successful. If folks are going to promote the idea of acting like thugs, then be prepared for rational people to part company.

222 KenJen  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:37:15am

re: #206 jcm

We pay, she goes...

She like jets so much she should have been a fighter pilot. Probably couldn't pass the psychological exams.

223 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:37:46am

re: #210 pre-Boomer Marine brat

BTW, where's the towel-chewer at now?

Retired.

224 windsword  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:37:54am

re: #176 Jetpilot1101

A little OT: has any congresscritter with half a brain tried to put forth a balanced budget amendment? I think a lot of American, left and right, would support at least the government having to balance the checkbook every year.

Actually, if only two more state legislatures submit requests, there can be a convention proposing that amendment.
Wikipedia article on BBA

225 voirdire  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:38:06am

A black man gets pummeled by union goons who yell racial slurs at him. Nothing to see here . . .

226 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:38:11am

re: #205 Charles

It only works to "sarcastically" claim a derogatory name like "mob" if you're NOT really acting like a mob.

re: #218 Shiplord Kirel

A BIG part of me doesn't mind seeing the pop-left's own totalitarian methodology turned against them; the mangy hippies and VC sympathizers of 40 years ago shouted down and abused when they put on suits and try to hold a townhall meeting.

The rational part of me, though, knows that it is wrong, and the wrong way to proceed as a political tactic.

Well enjoy the freedom to do this (effective or not) while you can, it won't last.

227 kansas  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:38:24am

Let's encourage thoughtful debate with understanding.

228 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:38:45am

re: #211 nonic

The sad part is that now ANYBODY who goes to a protest or demonstration to show disapproval with ObamaCare and ANYBODY who goes to a townhall meeting and speaks up negatively about ObamaCare is going to be labeled a "mob," a "kook," a "right wing extremist" or some other nasty and dismissive term so that he/she and his/her opinion can be marginalized and ignored. This is the goal of the dems, it is the goal of the MSM, and PC-sensitive conservatives seem willing to go along with it.

No -- the reason why people are going to be labeled "mobs" or "kooks" is because there's a sizeable contingent of right-wing people who ARE acting like mobs full of kooks. This isn't something being made up by the Dems or the media.

229 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:39:01am

re: #183 Silvergirl

I don't steadfastly stand by your last part. I believe much was accomplished for civil rights by brave people who acted on their beliefs knowing full well they would be arrested. The freedom came later. For the most part, they did it right in that movement.

I understand all that, but, by definition, those who were arrested did not have the freedom they sought at the time of the arrests. The freedom, in the form of civil rights, only came later.

230 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:39:05am

re: #226 Walter L. Newton

Whoops, sorry, I was composing another reply when I jump top another, sorry for the double posting.

231 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:39:42am

re: #220 MandyManners

Why are SEIU people there as SEIU representatives to begin with? Who sent them?


Health Care for America Now
[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

232 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:39:54am

re: #187 Jetpilot1101

Its a dual problem of the government spending too much and not enough tax collections rolling in. But the Dem plan to increase tax rates on the people still employed during a recession will be disastrous. The key is to get the economy rolling again and getting all the unemployed back to work where they can start paying income taxes again. You have to grow the economy to get out of a recession. You can't do that by sucking the life out of the businesses that employ people.

233 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:39:56am

re: #207 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sauce for the goosed.

Cripes! who drew the short stick and had to goose Hill?

234 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:40:21am

re: #213 wrenchwench

Yikes!

235 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:41:28am

If you support O-Care ALL these attendees seeking a voice are part of a dangerous mob acting at the behest of fringe-right talk show agitators.

/I understand now.

236 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:41:28am

But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out

237 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:41:36am

re: #212 Desert Dog

There is no way to pin all of this anger on the right. These townhall meetings were meant to "rubber stamp" this BS socialized medical plan. The Obama administration underestimated the backlash. These people are not faking their anger and fear...it is real. Write it off as bunch Glen Beck supporters and idiot Tea Baggers at your own risk.

another huge whoops!...the BO admin just cannot seem to read the tea leaves very well...that said I don't want these meetings to become so disrupted that they are cancelled...I want to hear the promoters of this travesty try to justify it

238 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:41:42am

re: #218 Shiplord Kirel

A BIG part of me doesn't mind seeing the pop-left's own totalitarian methodology turned against them; the mangy hippies and VC sympathizers of 40 years ago shouted down and abused when they put on suits and try to hold a townhall meeting.

The rational part of me, though, knows that it is wrong, and the wrong way to proceed as a political tactic.

"I love [poltiical postion/candidate/tactic/ideology] X because it pisses off the other side/pays them back!" is a damn poor rationale for one's politics.

And I'm particularly amazed by how the right seems to have certain memes that are 30 or more years out of date. Hippie is one, Commie is another. It's strange.

239 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:41:42am

re: #228 Charles

No -- the reason why people are going to be labeled "mobs" or "kooks" is because there's a sizeable contingent of right-wing people who ARE acting like mobs full of kooks. This isn't something being made up by the Dems or the media.

Remember, the progressives labeled the protestors a "mob" BEFORE any so-called mob ever appeared. It was a typical progressive tactic to try to set up labels which would be eventually used to cover any and all citizens who voice a opposition to this health care proposal.

240 sngnsgt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:42:02am

re: #210 pre-Boomer Marine brat

BTW, where's the towel-chewer at now?

I have no idea right now, I just moved back to the valley a few months ago and have barely had time to unpack.

241 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:42:14am

Does anyone have an opinion on what's driving support for Obamacare down in the polls, as it's been cratering in the last month or so?

I'm not seeing any R officials being super-effective at getting messages out.

The media clearly is biased for Obama.

What's making the numbers change?

242 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:42:32am

re: #220 MandyManners

Why are SEIU people there as SEIU representatives to begin with? Who sent them?

Shhh!
You're drifting from the point.

243 dwells38  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:42:34am

re: #221 Sharmuta


I don't think these right leaning protesters are thugs. True shouting down the representative and turning a town hall meeting into a protest is rude and pointless.

But Kenneth the sign vendor being beaten by union members is thuggery.

244 kansas  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:42:52am

re: #241 Pianobuff

Does anyone have an opinion on what's driving support for Obamacare down in the polls, as it's been cratering in the last month or so?

I'm not seeing any R officials being super-effective at getting messages out.

The media clearly is biased for Obama.

What's making the numbers change?

Tried to actually read the bill maybe?

245 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:42:52am

re: #95 Pianobuff

I'd like to see civil conversations about this as much as anyone else. What I see developing, though, is a storyline that regardless of how many counter-examples are brought up, that the only problem with townhalls are those introduced by right-wing extremists.

We have a black conservative that is beaten by SEIU thugs.

Crickets.

We have people asking legitimate questions at townhalls that are belittled by elected officials.

Crickets.

We have elected Dem officials that re-frame their town halls as prayer vigils.

Crickets.

Mainstream town halls in Bush's term disrupted by shouters and interruptions. (I'm not talking Code Pink either, I'm talking about the Social Security townhalls attended by "mainstream" folks).

Crickets.

People tried other forms of protest. I think they called them tea parties. Now matter how many decent people attended those, they were painted as the lunatic fringe because it just so happened some fringe people showed up.

So now the option of offline protests is out the door because a bad guy might be there.

Could some of the townhalls be less disruptive? Absolutely. Would I like to see them less disruptive? Absolutely.

Do I wish the Dem thugs had not escalated this to the level of violence? Absolutely.

There are a lot of features to this debate.

That is so true. There are a lot of features to this debate. It's easy for us to divide up along party lines or in the free speech vs. manners groups, but there really is a lot to look at and think about. I agree with a good bit of what you wrote here, though the "crickets" part is not entirely accurate. These things aren't going unnoticed.

246 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:43:23am

Meanwhile, this is what Judge Andrew Napolitano's pal Alex Jones is doing to contribute to the national debate.

247 rwmofo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:43:30am

Here's a perfect example of how the left thinks the right should be treated when we have better ideas.

248 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:43:33am

The argument that "they did it, now it's our turn" is unbelievably lame. I don't listen to Rush much these days, but I caught him using that this week. He's supposed to be so smart.

249 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:43:41am

re: #241 Pianobuff

What's making the numbers change?

You can lie to some people all of the time and all people some of the time but you can't lie to all the people all the time.

250 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:43:50am

re: #238 iceweasel

"I love [poltiical postion/candidate/tactic/ideology] X because it pisses off the other side/pays them back!" is a damn poor rationale for one's politics.

And I'm particularly amazed by how the right seems to have certain memes that are 30 or more years out of date. Hippie is one, Commie is another. It's strange.

I use those terms because they were current at the time to which I clearly referred, and because the pop-left itself is based on memes that are 30+ years out of date.

251 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:44:02am

re: #152 wrenchwench

Does anybody use Roberts Rules of Order any more? Wouldn't it be nice if that were being promoted by organizers of new political groups, instead of "They did it, now it's our turn!"?

Point of disorder!

252 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:44:02am

re: #238 iceweasel

"I love [poltiical postion/candidate/tactic/ideology] X because it pisses off the other side/pays them back!" is a damn poor rationale for one's politics.

And I'm particularly amazed by how the right seems to have certain memes that are 30 or more years out of date. Hippie is one, Commie is another. It's strange.

Ain't any more out of date than most of the Orwellian meme that the progressives attend to. That was what, 1948?

253 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:44:03am

re: #246 Charles

Not kooky in the slightest. ///

254 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:44:13am

re: #200 jcm

The taxpayer is a infinite milkcow as seen inside the beltway.

A GOP fund-raiser called yesterday. She started off with, "what's the greatest problem you see with what the Obama Administration is doing?"

I replied, the greatest problem is that GOP leadership abandoned the Contract With America.

She said she agreed 100%, that "everyone" there agreed 100%, then launched into reading the donation spiel.

I quietly signed off.

The leadership is a bunch of clueless money-suckers.

255 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:44:26am
256 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:44:41am

re: #152 wrenchwench

Does anybody use Roberts Rules of Order any more? Wouldn't it be nice if that were being promoted by organizers of new political groups, instead of "They did it, now it's our turn!"?

Recreate '08!

257 Ringo the Gringo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:44:44am

Nice to see the NY Times covering Obama's opponents with the same vigor that they used to cover gatherings of Bush's detractors.

258 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:44:52am

We need atn up-to-date meme. How about "twittering gamers?"

259 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:45:02am

re: #252 Walter L. Newton

Here's a hint, Walter: Orwell isn't the end-all-be-all of political science.

260 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:45:20am

re: #246 Charles

Would that be funnier if I had seen the Batman movies?

I didn't think so.

261 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:45:25am

re: #221 Sharmuta

Look- we can't decry the thug tactics on the left and then hypocritically adopt them because we think they work. The reason why the right has lost is because it ceased being the party of the right, started spending like democrats. We did ourselves in with bad policies. Just because these tactics were used by the left doesn't mean they were successful. If folks are going to promote the idea of acting like thugs, then be prepared for rational people to part company.

I agree with that, Sharmuta. This uncivility at these meetings has to stop. If these screaming people really wanted to stop this medical insurance fiasco, they should let these guys talk and try and explain away the shortcomings of their plan.

If this plan is so good and so great why are they (the Democrats) not shouting from the highest treetops and why is the complicit MSM not reverberating with praise for the great and powerful Obama?

This plan is ill-conceived, hasty, and loaded with one train wreck after another. Obama wanted to rush it through like his Porkulus bill and he got busted.

262 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:45:30am

If there were arguments to be made in favor of the the Obama health reform, do you really think the supporters would be resorting to smears of 'astroturf', 'mob', 'swastika' and in the excrable case of Krugman, 'racist'?

No.

When people get their faces lied to by people they elected about something so important as gov't takeover of just about every area of our lives, they get pissed.

NOT getting pissed, NOT getting in the reps faces and what happens? We end up like the Brits. CCTV cameras in every public space. And then even in the private spaces of the homes the gov't has deemed the children are in peril/trouble.

The Children’s Secretary set out £400million plans to put 20,000 problem families under 24-hour CCTV super-vision in their own homes.They will be monitored to ensure that children attend school, go to bed on time and eat proper meals.

Under the most severe threat to our liberty from our gov't I'm aware of since the civil war, I see worries about people losing their tempers?

Astonishing.

263 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:45:38am

re: #238 iceweasel

"I love [poltiical postion/candidate/tactic/ideology] X because it pisses off the other side/pays them back!" is a damn poor rationale for one's politics.

And I'm particularly amazed by how the right seems to have certain memes that are 30 or more years out of date. Hippie is one, Commie is another. It's strange.

liberalism is a failed ideology...nothing good ever becomes of it...talk about out of date, how does CA look as it marches into the 21st century of liberal rule?

264 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:45:47am

On this topic, more and more it is time for a new center party.

With 2 parties only the left and right nutters each take over a party and drive out the decent folks.

Note that the number two has no center.

The number 3, however, does.

I won't post the Whig website here. I've done that.

Maybe there are other potential new parties; a good one would surely go, and it would make hash out of the gerrymandered districts, and would consign the partisan hacks to the margins, at least at the start, and probably for a few decades at least.

The country really needs a center party.

265 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:45:48am

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

Remember, the progressives labeled the protestors a "mob" BEFORE any so-called mob ever appeared. It was a typical progressive tactic to try to set up labels which would be eventually used to cover any and all citizens who voice a opposition to this health care proposal.

Utterly false. The right was organising and orchestrating 'grass roots' opposition, just as it did with the tea parties, and it is now setting up a martyr meme about 'we're being called mobs!"

Don't want to be called a mob? Don't act like one. Don't employ mob tactics.

When did the party and the movement that decried the 'politics of victimisation' become experts in calling themselves victims and claiming martyr status? Sometimes I feel like the entire country has lost its mind.

266 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:45:51am

re: #252 Walter L. Newton

Ain't any more out of date than most of the Orwellian meme that the progressives attend to. That was what, 1948?

1867

267 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:46:10am

Well, I'm glad to see that we were able to debate this issue here on this thread with out shouting each other down. That's the nice thing about LGF, diverse opinions are welcome.

Keep talking because that's what the left wants you to stop doing.

268 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:46:18am

re: #254 pre-Boomer Marine brat

A GOP fund-raiser called yesterday. She started off with, "what's the greatest problem you see with what the Obama Administration is doing?"

I replied, the greatest problem is that GOP leadership abandoned the Contract With America.

She said she agreed 100%, that "everyone" there agreed 100%, then launched into reading the donation spiel.

I quietly signed off.

The leadership is a bunch of clueless money-suckers.

DING!

269 bkgodfrey  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:46:30am

When it comes down to it, I think the majority of these people have reached a boiling point when it comes to not being listened to. It started with the latest/current expansion of government power/control under the Bush administration and Republican elected officials have paid for it dearly in the last two elections.

Now, under Obama, we continue to see an increase in the power grab by the federal government. This all comes with deficit numbers that the human mind can, in all honesty, not even begin to understand.

Many individuals are fearful of such a rapid change concerning one of the most important aspects of their lives, health care. The numbers and costs associated with "reforming" health care and health care insurance are frightening. Much of this reaction comes from fear, fear that is based much in reality.

270 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:46:31am

re: #241 Pianobuff

Common sense, I think, is making them change.

271 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:46:45am

How to turn political opposition into brownshirt mêlées.

1. Define your opponents as ipso facto liars, thieves, commies, rats, un-American, ugly, stupid and godless.

2. Always call their supporters "thugs" (or even "kneecappers"). Wherever possible, mention the word "jackboots". Hurl the names SEIU and ACORN like they meant CPUSA and American Nazi Party.

3. Encourage your supporters to go out and join "the mob" and "let them know how you feel". (Emphasize primacy of emotion over thought.)

4. Enjoy the resulting spectacle, and blame any violence or disruptions or incivility on the "fact" that your opponents are all of the things you said in (1).

5. Get your followers to ratchet up the rhetoric by proclaiming that "this is war", while disavowing the logical conclusion a state of war implies. (Nudge, nudge.)

6. Publicly bemoan any excesses while privately gloating and egging on your Sturmabteilung for more...and more...and more.

7. Pretend to be shocked when someone gets hurt or killed.

8. Repeat as needed.

Remember, your opponents are (see [1]). Their plans and ideas are evil. Even though you lost the election, even though a majority might agree with and desire [fill in the blank], it's un-American and you have the right to burn down the public square before you'll let [those people] enact [whatever it is that you don't like].

Finally

9. Continue to maintain the fiction that you believe in American democracy

and

10. Prepare for riots by fortifying your mansion in Connecticut.

Oh, and have fun! You're making millions doing this shit.

272 dwells38  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:46:55am

re: #248 wrenchwench

I get your point but at the same time it was Obama that sought to single Rush and his listeners out and demonize them. I don't doubt there's a little vindictiveness there to show this new Administration that Rush too can flex muscles and mobilize people.

This Administration and these feckless and overreaching liberal Dem leaders are reaping what they've sown.

273 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:47:29am

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

Remember, the progressives labeled the protestors a "mob" BEFORE any so-called mob ever appeared. It was a typical progressive tactic to try to set up labels which would be eventually used to cover any and all citizens who voice a opposition to this health care proposal.

True enough, but now that protestors are acting like a genuine mob, everybody will be calling them that. And it will be true.

(If somebody called you a murderer, would you go out and shoot someone?)

274 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:47:33am

re: #223 VegasRick

Retired.

Thanks.
I hope to G*d he didn't retire to DALLAS! ... :D

/AZ Wildcat fan back in the day

275 Syrah  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:47:36am

re: #241 Pianobuff

Does anyone have an opinion on what's driving support for Obamacare down in the polls, as it's been cratering in the last month or so?

I'm not seeing any R officials being super-effective at getting messages out.

The media clearly is biased for Obama.

What's making the numbers change?

Human behavior in a one sided debate is a little odd.

The debate, as the WH and the media have to this point framed it, is that the Dem proposal is the only one being discussed. In that type of a debate, everything that is said about it one way or the other, may give people more reasons to oppose it than to support it.

A large part of human nature is to be more persuaded by negatives than by positives. Since the Obama-care bill is the only proposal, it is the only one generating negative impressions. It loses support by default. Will it lose enough support that it will fail when its up for its final votes in congress? I don't think so. I think it will pass.

276 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:47:52am

re: #259 Sharmuta

Here's a hint, Walter: Orwell isn't the end-all-be-all of political science.

Here's a fact. One of the smartest political observers to come down the pike. Show me some detractions to his body of work?

277 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:48:13am

re: #262 wahabicorridor

If there were arguments to be made in favor of the the Obama health reform, do you really think the supporters would be resorting to smears of 'astroturf', 'mob', 'swastika'

It's not a smear to point out that astroturfing is going on and that people are showing up with no intention other than disruption. And some of them have had signs and Tshirts with swastikas or Hitler comparisons.

That's just fact.

278 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:48:14am

The block quote Think Progress provides from MacGuffie's memo (dutifully reproduced on other liberal blogs) also implies there are sentiments in the memo that simply aren't there. Each of TP's examples of the "harassment" MacGuffie is inciting is preceded by a headline MacGuffie didn't write, which lends a considerably more sinister tone than MacGuffie used. The bolded headlines below do not appear in the memo, but do appear in Think Progress' block quote of it:


– Artificially Inflate Your Numbers: “Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put the Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up...

– Be Disruptive Early And Often: “You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”

– Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate: “The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down...

SNIP

279 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:48:18am

re: #254 pre-Boomer Marine brat

She said she agreed 100%, that "everyone" there agreed 100%, then launched into reading the donation spiel.

I hate it when people claim to agree with me, then do the opposite, then look for my support. Hate it.

280 LeslieG  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:48:27am

This is certainly no way to come together on such an important issue as health care reform.

Our President is right: either we should just shut up, or he'll have to send in the thugs.

281 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:48:37am

re: #229 Shiplord Kirel

I understand all that, but, by definition, those who were arrested did not have the freedom they sought at the time of the arrests. The freedom, in the form of civil rights, only came later.

Which is what I said:

I don't steadfastly stand by your last part. I believe much was accomplished for civil rights by brave people who acted on their beliefs knowing full well they would be arrested. The freedom came later. For the most part, they did it right in that movement.

282 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:48:56am

re: #233 jcm

Cripes! who drew the short stick and had to goose Hill?

(intoned like a circus barker)
GIVE THE MAN A CIGAR !

283 Flyers1974  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:49:15am

re: #211 nonic

The sad part is that now ANYBODY who goes to a protest or demonstration to show disapproval with ObamaCare and ANYBODY who goes to a townhall meeting and speaks up negatively about ObamaCare is going to be labeled a "mob," a "kook," a "right wing extremist" or some other nasty and dismissive term so that he/she and his/her opinion can be marginalized and ignored...

True, but no different from how everyone who protested the Iraq War and Bush were labled as codepinkers, etc... .

284 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:49:50am

re: #248 wrenchwench

Rush has jumped the shark.

285 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:50:07am

In the movie "Gandhi," the character of Margaret Burke White asks Gandhi whether he thinks his polite civil disobedience would work with Hitler.

He answers thoughtfully, "Not without a great deal of pain."

I'm going to assume that's something Gandhi actually said. And I think it's an utterly STUPID, head-in-the-clouds, self-absorbed answer. And I am damn glad the world didn't have to depend on Gandhi to overcome Hitler's evil.

No, Obama is not Hitler.

But Obama is a thug and a bully, intent on his own way. He intimidates people deliberately. Think about it. What's the purpose of intimidation? It's to quell opposition by means of fear -- it's to make people quietly acquiesce.

Have you EVER heard of a bully backing down when confronted with quiet, polite, utterly civil, gently spoken dissent? Hardly.

Sometimes people in the right (even on the right) have to be loud.

286 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:50:20am

re: #267 Walter L. Newton

Well, I'm glad to see that we were able to debate this issue here on this thread with out shouting each other down. That's the nice thing about LGF, diverse opinions are welcome.

Keep talking because that's what the left wants you to stop doing.

yes, first lets spend all day defining and redefining 'mob'...then we'll debate 'dissent' for another day...all the while the issue is rolled up and hauled away

287 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:50:21am

It is a hybrid vision that uses fear mongering and victimization to promote itself.

288 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:50:23am

re: #238 iceweasel

"I love [poltiical postion/candidate/tactic/ideology] X because it pisses off the other side/pays them back!" is a damn poor rationale for one's politics.

And I'm particularly amazed by how the right seems to have certain memes that are 30 or more years out of date. Hippie is one, Commie is another. It's strange.


You seem to think that if these seniors aren't hip to the lingo that they are stupid. You did say that some people are too stupid to kno waht teabagging means.
Then you said that the Town Hall protests are corporate inspired.
I ask you again where is the proof?

289 eneri  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:50:31am

I don't like mobs, they scare me with their so easily excitable mentality. I don't like name calling and generalizations. I do like debate and discourse; unfortunately this is no longer the case in my beloved country. I think the difference between the nutty left and nutty right is non-existent; still I would like to see responsible Republicans stand up for America. People's lives are being threatened and someone needs to stand up and be counted.

290 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:50:34am

re: #220 MandyManners

Why are SEIU people there as SEIU representatives to begin with? Who sent them?

A little thing called freedom of assembly?

291 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:50:53am

re: #268 jcm

DING!

Thanks.

I was very nice about it to her. She was only doing her job.

292 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:50:57am

re: #276 Walter L. Newton

Here's a fact. One of the smartest political observers to come down the pike. Show me some detractions to his body of work?

Not my point.

293 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:51:48am

re: #246 Charles

Meanwhile, this is what Judge Andrew Napolitano's pal Alex Jones is doing to contribute to the national debate.

Not only batshit crazy, but really bad camera work.

You can tell so much by production values.

294 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:51:53am

re: #241 Pianobuff

What's making the numbers change?

Folks are only 'now' beginning to recognize their November error. The numbers will continue this downward climb until he finally drops healthcare and moves center.

295 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:52:10am

Pelosi could have had a health care bill passed by now, if the blue dogs didn't want to keep their seats. Where is their spirit of public sacrifice?

296 WinterCat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:52:15am

re: #221 Sharmuta

Look- we can't decry the thug tactics on the left and then hypocritically adopt them because we think they work. The reason why the right has lost is because it ceased being the party of the right, started spending like democrats. We did ourselves in with bad policies. Just because these tactics were used by the left doesn't mean they were successful. If folks are going to promote the idea of acting like thugs, then be prepared for rational people to part company.

Sadly, as evidenced by the current political landscape, they were successful. During the last election I watched people I considered to be reasonable folks become screaming harpies. It worked because they intimidated people and made them afraid to speak their minds if they disagreed. It worked alright. I still don't want that for my country. There has to be a better way.

297 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:52:21am

re: #236 Sharmuta

But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out

Who's talking about destruction?...
...
"I want to transform the country."

Oh, nevermind...

298 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:52:23am

re: #278 MandyManners

hmmm.At about 10 minute in on this Bill Whittle clip - Dana explains how a charity is too afraid to show up because an admitted Obama supporter came to crash the event dressed up as a crazy Nazi.

299 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:52:41am

re: #271 Cato the Elder

How to turn political opposition into brownshirt mêlées.

1. Define your opponents as ipso facto liars, thieves, commies, rats, un-American, ugly, stupid and godless.

2. Always call their supporters "thugs" (or even "kneecappers"). Wherever possible, mention the word "jackboots". Hurl the names SEIU and ACORN like they meant CPUSA and American Nazi Party.

3. Encourage your supporters to go out and join "the mob" and "let them know how you feel". (Emphasize primacy of emotion over thought.)

4. Enjoy the resulting spectacle, and blame any violence or disruptions or incivility on the "fact" that your opponents are all of the things you said in (1).

5. Get your followers to ratchet up the rhetoric by proclaiming that "this is war", while disavowing the logical conclusion a state of war implies. (Nudge, nudge.)

6. Publicly bemoan any excesses while privately gloating and egging on your Sturmabteilung for more...and more...and more.

7. Pretend to be shocked when someone gets hurt or killed.

8. Repeat as needed.

Remember, your opponents are (see [1]). Their plans and ideas are evil. Even though you lost the election, even though a majority might agree with and desire [fill in the blank], it's un-American and you have the right to burn down the public square before you'll let [those people] enact [whatever it is that you don't like].

Finally

9. Continue to maintain the fiction that you believe in American democracy

and

10. Prepare for riots by fortifying your mansion in Connecticut.

Oh, and have fun! You're making millions doing this shit.

Favorited for future use.

300 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:52:43am

re: #279 wrenchwench

I hate it when people claim to agree with me, then do the opposite, then look for my support. Hate it.

Agreeing with whatever the person being called says is obviously in the script.

301 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:53:06am

re: #288 opnion

You seem to think that if these seniors aren't hip to the lingo

What is this 'hip to the lingo' of which you speak? //

As for the astroturfing, just check out who FreedomWorks is.

302 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:53:14am

BBIAB - (oh joy)

303 Flyers1974  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:53:26am

re: #269 bkgodfrey

When it comes down to it, I think the majority of these people have reached a boiling point when it comes to not being listened to. It started with the latest/current expansion of government power/control under the Bush administration and Republican elected officials have paid for it dearly in the last two elections.

Now, under Obama, we continue to see an increase in the power grab by the federal government. This all comes with deficit numbers that the human mind can, in all honesty, not even begin to understand.

Many individuals are fearful of such a rapid change concerning one of the most important aspects of their lives, health care. The numbers and costs associated with "reforming" health care and health care insurance are frightening. Much of this reaction comes from fear, fear that is based much in reality.


I'm sure that after evey presidential election, a good bit of the losing side quickly reaches the "boiling point."

304 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:53:31am

re: #296 WinterCat

Sadly, as evidenced by the current political landscape, they were successful.

No- correlation does not equal causation.

305 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:53:54am

re: #287 Sharmuta

It is a hybrid vision that uses fear mongering and victimization to promote itself.

Of course, those ARE two factors in real fascism.

306 LC LaWedgie  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:54:28am
Along the way, he turned to anger, an emotion rarely used in his presidential race.

“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry. I’m angry,” Mr. Obama said, his voice reaching a peak seven days after learning of the bonuses given to employees of the American International Group. “What I want to do, though, is channel our anger in a constructive way.”

While Mr. Obama never explicitly said how he believed that anger should be channeled, he essentially suggested that Americans should follow his lead: let off a little steam and move on. He wants to prevent the disgust over the A.I.G. bonuses from derailing his agenda and the broader concerns about the economy.

307 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:54:37am

re: #272 dwells38

I get your point but at the same time it was Obama that sought to single Rush and his listeners out and demonize them. I don't doubt there's a little vindictiveness there to show this new Administration that Rush too can flex muscles and mobilize people.

This Administration and these feckless and overreaching liberal Dem leaders are reaping what they've sown.


Doesn't look like vindictiveness to me. If Rush could mobilize people, McCain would not have been the nominee, and neither would Obama. Looks like flailing to keep his audience to me.

308 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:54:47am

re: #296 WinterCat

There has to be a better way.


There is.

309 harpsicon  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:55:11am

re: #221 Sharmuta

Look- we can't decry the thug tactics on the left and then hypocritically adopt them because we think they work. The reason why the right has lost is because it ceased being the party of the right, started spending like democrats. We did ourselves in with bad policies. Just because these tactics were used by the left doesn't mean they were successful. If folks are going to promote the idea of acting like thugs, then be prepared for rational people to part company.

Not advocating that!

The question is, as I asked, "What is a classical liberal or conservative supposed to do in the face of these tactics?" that the Left has employed SUCCESSFULLY for so many years.

You gave me a lecture about what NOT to do, and how maybe the tactics aren't successful - but I beg to disagree. The tactics are successful, and thus the question remains:

What should people do that would be effective (i.e. get on the news, make their point, get others involved, etc.? I am so not a violent person that maybe I'm the very last soul who should be even talking at this point, but what has gone on in the universities is unspeakable, and in the end it is backed by force. As is Chicago politics, if I understand correctly.

310 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:55:35am

There are few issues as close to home as healthcare. There has always an aversion to changing our system to a single payer model. We saw it with Hillarycare and we are seeing it now.

Most of the uproar that came from these meetings seems to have been spontaneous at first. There is a real fear and anger out there. I know, I have it as well. It is honest to say that it has now snowballed into an organized exercise with everybody and their brother coming out of the woodwork to decry this plan.

Obama did this wrong, the Dems did this wrong. There should have been an actual national debate, with ideas from both sides. This is something that effects ALL Americans, not just the 52% that voted for Obama. Instead, we get this mangled POS getting shoved down our throats.

How about an honest and open debate concerning probably the single most important aspect of people's lives?

311 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:55:41am

re: #290 Cato the Elder

A little thing called freedom of assembly?

Precisely.

312 Born Again Republican  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:55:48am

re: #170 Drider

American people have learned that what brought us to this financial crisis is banks being bullied and pressured into making unsound loans. And learning that there was pressure on Congress to address this issue and being told that all was fine so nothing was done and now here we are. What are the American people to do?

313 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:56:08am

Wasn't Orwell into eugenics? Isn't that the big smear now?

314 jvic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:56:25am

re: #221 Sharmuta

Look- we can't decry the thug tactics on the left and then hypocritically adopt them because we think they work. The reason why the right has lost is because it ceased being the party of the right, started spending like democrats. We did ourselves in with bad policies. Just because these tactics were used by the left doesn't mean they were successful. If folks are going to promote the idea of acting like thugs, then be prepared for rational people to part company.

Indeed. I'm not interested in backing the slower horse in a race to the bottom.

I posted this yesterday:

Until the right firmly squelches its kooks and demagogues, it will not get the chance to govern again.

There is a difference between dissent and disruption. Well-framed dissent, accompanied by constructive alternatives, can get the right back into power. Disruption can sustain the seven- and eight-figure incomes of some "conservative commentators".

If, heaven forbid, the right does get back in power via its kooks and demagogues, much worse than we've seen to date will lie ahead. (Thx, Ice, for cancelling the downding that that post attracted.)

315 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:57:15am

re: #290 Cato the Elder

A little thing called freedom of assembly?

And a little thing called intimidation too, n'est pas?

316 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:57:23am

Helicopter and Small Plane Collide Over Hudson River

A small aircraft and a helicopter collided in midair over the Hudson River in Lower Manhattan on Saturday, raining debris down into the waterway, the authorities said.

It was not immediately clear how many people were on board the aircraft, but a Fire Department official said it appeared that at least one person had been, “removed from the water,” and taken ashore.

317 hbwriter  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:57:27am

The focus of this site seems to have shifted--to not even reference the abominable DNC ad here seems a huge miss--

318 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:58:03am

Speaking of mobs (though a pretty mellow one in this case), the 40th anniversary of the Woodstock Music and Art Fair is coming up next week.

Various pop-culture historians have argued over whether this was the high-water mark of the counterculture or the beginning of its move into mainstream culture.
Personally, I think the counterculture was in decline as any kind of authentic phenomenon by the time of Woodstock. It was, however, the point at which middle America first really became aware of how prevalent the counterculture had become. I was a little surprised at their surprise.

319 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:58:57am

re: #317 hbwriter

The focus of this site seems to have shifted--to not even reference the abominable DNC ad here seems a huge miss--

I posted it 2 or 3 days ago, and compared it to HRC's dissent is patriotic.

320 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:59:11am

re: #314 jvic

If, heaven forbid, the right does get back in power via its kooks and demagogues, much worse than we've seen to date will lie ahead. (Thx, Ice, for cancelling the downding that that post attracted.)

Yes, it would be almost as bad as a bunch of unrestrained leftist social engineers bent on altering the very fabric of society with their lofty ideals.

321 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:59:15am

re: #310 Desert Dog

There are few issues as close to home as healthcare. There has always an aversion to changing our system to a single payer model. We saw it with Hillarycare and we are seeing it now.

Most of the uproar that came from these meetings seems to have been spontaneous at first. There is a real fear and anger out there. I know, I have it as well. It is honest to say that it has now snowballed into an organized exercise with everybody and their brother coming out of the woodwork to decry this plan.

Obama did this wrong, the Dems did this wrong. There should have been an actual national debate, with ideas from both sides. This is something that effects ALL Americans, not just the 52% that voted for Obama. Instead, we get this mangled POS getting shoved down our throats.

How about an honest and open debate concerning probably the single most important aspect of people's lives?

for BO that would be akin to admitting defeat...it is beyond that now, he didn't learn the lesson...there will be a shitstorm pf protest to this style of governance...call the peasants what you will, there is more to come until the donks get their shit together, but that does not seem likely, after all their mentality is WE WON!...good luck with that you dumbasses

322 Flyers1974  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:59:31am

re: #296 WinterCat

Sadly, as evidenced by the current political landscape, they were successful. During the last election I watched people I considered to be reasonable folks become screaming harpies. It worked because they intimidated people and made them afraid to speak their minds if they disagreed. It worked alright. I still don't want that for my country. There has to be a better way.

Who was intimidated and afraid to speak their mind?

323 SurferDoc  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:59:33am

re: #249 Mich-again

You can lie to some people all of the time and all people some of the time but you can't lie to all the people all the time.

No? It worked for Bill Clinton and so far it is working for Obama.

324 LeslieG  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:59:36am

Dems, the great Community Activists, turn on activists. Go ahead, call them mobs. I Scott Johnson in calling it the Great Awakening:

This we are witnessing now, for everything is now done in secret and behind closed doors. The so-called "stimulus bill" was passed in both the House and the Senate in a manner suggestive of tyranny. It was written in camera with the help of a legion of lobbyists, and it was presented and shoved through before anyone in Congress even had a chance to read it, much less think about it.

The fact that there was no time allowed for public discussion and debate aroused suspicion nationwide; and when it became evident that the bill was a fraud - that its real purpose was to reward favored party constituencies and that the sum spent will grossly inflate the national deficit in the short run and require massive tax increases down the road - Americans in astonishing numbers took to the streets in every corner of the land.

The passage of the cap-and-trade bill in the House - again without adequate public discussion and debate - only reinforced the wariness of the general public, and the same can be said for the efforts of the Obama administration to push through a scheme aimed at putting us on the road to socialized medicine.

Behind closed doors, in secrecy, a deal was done to reward the United Auto Workers and to defraud the bondholders of Chrysler and General Motors. And behind closed doors, without any species of accountability, Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner is reorganizing our financial system.

Now, as citizens flock to town meetings all over the country to confront their Senators and Congressmen, we can see the consequences. And the White House and the Democratic Party have responded to the spontaneous organization of opposition to their endeavors in a manner that is reminiscent of the governments in Tocqueville's France - by insulting their fellow citizens, by charging them with conspiracy, by locking citizens out of putatively public meetings, by bringing in union toughs to intimidate the opposition, and by illegally collecting the names and contact information of those who have exercised their First Amendment rights in a manner unfriendly to the proposals advanced by the current administration - apparently with an eye to future retribution.

We should be grateful to Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Rahm Emanuel. For, in their audacity, they have done what their predecessors feared to do; and, in the process, they have made the tyrannical propensities inherent within the progressive impulse visible to anyone who cares to take notice. What Franklin Delano Roosevelt falsely charged in 1936 is visibly true today. "A small group" is intent on concentrating "into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives."

325 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:59:40am

re: #314 jvic

If, heaven forbid, the right does get back in power via its kooks and demagogues, much worse than we've seen to date will lie ahead. (Thx, Ice, for cancelling the downding that that post attracted.)

Happened to spot it. It was an excellent post jvic and you are completely right. I need to start tracking all your posts!

I can't understand people who do not see that it is to the benefit of EVERYONE, and the country, if the kook wing of the GOP doesn't gain power.

326 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:59:46am

re: #288 opnion

You seem to think that if these seniors aren't hip to the lingo that they are stupid. You did say that some people are too stupid to kno waht teabagging means.
Then you said that the Town Hall protests are corporate inspired.
I ask you again where is the proof?

I don't know anything about what iceweasel may or may not have said. What I want to clarify is that for some of the folks in the tea party movement to have not known what the sexually charged term teabagging meant does not mean stupidity. Is there no longer any room in the world for such a thing as innocence? Innocence = stupidity? I thought it was despicable (I'll say it with lots of Daffy Duck/Bugs Bunny spittle) when the likes of Anderson Cooper and Rachel Maddow made their snide commentary.

327 sngnsgt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:00:06am

re: #317 hbwriter

The focus of this site seems to have shifted--to not even reference the abominable Obominable DNC ad here seems a huge miss--

Fixed.

328 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:00:07am

re: #309 harpsicon

The solution isn't something one person can do. The rational folks on the right all need to stand up and get involved. We need leadership, and that's not something that will happen over night or magically if we all hope and pray enough. I understand folks are busy and getting involved means more work, but that's what it will take. A real grassroots effort to clean the stables, fix the damages, and get our house in order.

When we present a better package than the competition- we will win.

329 rwmofo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:00:08am

re: #255 MandyManners

True Dat.

Who wants to go to a congressman's town hall meeting to listen to him/her explain that the government will take our $ and freedom and we'll like it? This is analogous to being told that I'll have to let the ex-wife back in and she sets all the rules.

330 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:00:17am

re: #301 iceweasel

What is this 'hip to the lingo' of which you speak? //

As for the astroturfing, just check out who FreedomWorks is.

Do you oppose Astroturfing as a practice?

331 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:00:44am

re: #313 Sharmuta

Wasn't Orwell into eugenics? Isn't that the big smear now?

Do you have a link for that?

332 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:00:53am

re: #220 MandyManners

Why are SEIU people there as SEIU representatives to begin with? Who sent them?

I can't imagine.

333 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:01:47am

re: #228 Charles

No -- the reason why people are going to be labeled "mobs" or "kooks" is because there's a sizeable contingent of right-wing people who ARE acting like mobs full of kooks. This isn't something being made up by the Dems or the media.

Maybe not entirely made up by, but certainly taken advantage of by. The media would be utterly appalled and castigate anyone who labelled ALL ... pick some favored minority... "dumb and violent" because a small percentage of that group exhibited dumb and violent behavior. But they are delighted to put the mark of "mob" and "kook" on everybody who attends a Tea Party or is not a quiet, gullible fan at a Townhall.

334 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:02:46am

re: #317 hbwriter

The focus of this site seems to have shifted--to not even reference the abominable DNC ad here seems a huge miss--

Bullshit. This site rips the hell out of Obama and Democrats on a regular basis. You're crying because it's criticising 'the right'-- and rightfully so--- in a story about the right's awful behaviour-- and 'not even referencing the DNC!'

That kind of crap is what's sinking the MSM, btw-- pretending there are always 'two sides' to every story. Sometimes there aren't.

335 abbyadams  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:03:10am

I am truly starting to wonder if we as Americans have what it takes to deserve a democracy, as we seem to have forgotten how that process works. We have a right to assemble - but with that right, there is another word - "peaceably." When my candidate does not win, it does not make me part of a "silent majority." It makes me part of a minority. As a the member of a minority, my job is to make my views known, and to work hard to get someone who does represent my views elected.

All I can say about these people is that I didn't know that the right had such a profound respect for Code Pink in that they believe that their tactics should be imitated.

336 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:03:19am

Everyone keeps asking: What can we do? What can we do?

That's the wrong question. Ask- what can I do?

Because this is individual- everyone has different ways in which they could contribute and what works for one person might not work for another. Ask what you yourself can do to help makes things better, than do it.

337 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:03:22am

re: #301 iceweasel

What is this 'hip to the lingo' of which you speak? //

As for the astroturfing, just check out who FreedomWorks is.

You know what I mean, you cast the aspersion stupid around a lot
I know who FreedomWorks is. Even the MSM is saying most people that they talk to at these TGown Halls are local & drove themselves there.
How about SEIU? Ya think that they just might be an organized mob?
Ya think that Obamas SEIU pal might have uleashed the thugs for his old buddy Barry? Nah

338 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:03:32am

re: #318 Shiplord Kirel

re: Woodstock.
Thomas Frank wrote an interesting book, The Conquest of Cool: Business Culture, Counterculture, and the Rise of Hip Consumerism that suggest that woodstock (and the whole '60's experience) was part of a blending of the tendencies of youthful revolution into an ongoing "counter-culture" consumerist attitude: rebelling by consuming.
See Whole Foods, as an example.

339 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:03:39am

re: #238 iceweasel

"I love [poltiical postion/candidate/tactic/ideology] X because it pisses off the other side/pays them back!" is a damn poor rationale for one's politics.

And I'm particularly amazed by how the right seems to have certain memes that are 30 or more years out of date. Hippie is one, Commie is another. It's strange.

What the Hegel are you sayin'?

340 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:04:10am

Good Morning Lizards! It's mighty bright in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland.

I've pretty much had it with Fox. Chris Wallace is the only one there I can stand. They've certainly made a change for worse since the election.

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

341 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:04:25am

re: #331 MandyManners

Maybe I'm thinking Wells, and not Orwell. Sorry for the mix up- my bad.

342 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:04:25am

re: #334 iceweasel

Bullshit. This site rips the hell out of Obama and Democrats on a regular basis. You're crying because it's criticising 'the right'-- and rightfully so--- in a story about the right's awful behaviour-- and 'not even referencing the DNC!'

That kind of crap is what's sinking the MSM, btw-- pretending there are always 'two sides' to every story. Sometimes there aren't.

Gee. I thought a conservative black man was beaten up by SEIU thugs who also hurled racial epithets at him. That was outside a town hall too. Was I mistaken about that?

343 directorblue  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:04:28am

I have now been to two town hall meetings and will simply relate what I saw at both.

First of all, at each, hundreds of mostly seniors queued up ahead of time. The average age was 55 (guess).

Two "Blue Dog" representatives were the subject of the town halls. Both had voted for cap-and-trade, against the wishes of mostly red districts. One had won their seat by 15,000 votes, the other by 3,000.

Each started out quite as civil affairs. But when the Democrats "filibustered" or told out and out lies, that's when people started getting upset:

* "There are 47 million uninsured" -- of course not, that's a lie.
* "There won't be euthanasia for the elderly" -- that was the choice offered to a senior in Oregon (no money for cancer treatment, but she could get an assisted suicide for free
* "The Public Option won't kill private insurance" -- anyone with half a brain knows it will; Barack Obama and Barney Frank are both on record as saying so.
* "It won't increase the deficit" -- that's how stupid your representatives think you are. Add 47 million people to the system, subtract doctors who are unwilling to participate in socialized medicine... and it won't add to the debt?

Combine these egregious statements with lunacy like "Cap-and-Trade"; a failed "Stimulus" (ACORN

344 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:05:25am

re: #341 Sharmuta

Maybe I'm thinking Wells, and not Orwell. Sorry for the mix up- my bad.

I Googled Orwell and found zip. However, I found a lot for Wells.

345 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:05:40am

re: #342 Pianobuff

Gee. I thought a conservative black man was beaten up by SEIU thugs who also hurled racial epithets at him. That was outside a town hall too. Was I mistaken about that?

Explain what that has to do with what I posted.

346 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:05:47am

re: #333 nonic

Maybe not entirely made up by, but certainly taken advantage of by. The media would be utterly appalled and castigate anyone who labelled ALL ... pick some favored minority... "dumb and violent" because a small percentage of that group exhibited dumb and violent behavior. But they are delighted to put the mark of "mob" and "kook" on everybody who attends a Tea Party or is not a quiet, gullible fan at a Townhall.

I'm putting the mark of "mob" on many of the people I've seen in videos of the town hall meetings. I am. I don't care what the media says about it. This is my opinion.

What I saw is embarrassing, pathetic, and makes me sad about what's happening to the Republican Party.

347 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:05:47am

re: #334 iceweasel

Bullshit. This site rips the hell out of Obama and Democrats on a regular basis. You're crying because it's criticising 'the right'-- and rightfully so--- in a story about the right's awful behaviour-- and 'not even referencing the DNC!'

That kind of crap is what's sinking the MSM, btw-- pretending there are always 'two sides' to every story. Sometimes there aren't.

I don't get that part.

The MSM is sinking because they portray two sides to every story? That is a new take.

348 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:05:54am

re: #336 Sharmuta

Everyone keeps asking: What can we do? What can we do?

That's the wrong question. Ask- what can I do?

Because this is individual- everyone has different ways in which they could contribute and what works for one person might not work for another. Ask what you yourself can do to help makes things better, than do it.

UP-ding

/and biting my %@#& tongue to keep from going off on a sympathetic rant about character.

349 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:06:32am

re: #342 Pianobuff

Gee. I thought a conservative black man was beaten up by SEIU thugs who also hurled racial epithets at him. That was outside a town hall too. Was I mistaken about that?

Are you gonna' believe your lying ears and eyes?

350 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:06:33am

re: #341 Sharmuta

Maybe I'm thinking Wells, and not Orwell. Sorry for the mix up- my bad.

Yeah, wells. Wells has that quote about fascism that Jonah Goldberg turned into an excuse for a book.

351 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:06:47am

re: #315 Desert Dog

And a little thing called intimidation too, n'est pas?

Right, because God forbid any union members [= un-American commies, nudge, wink] should attend a town hall meeting.

And showing up at said meeting with the intention of shutting it down is not intimidation, why, it's self-defense. There are union members there! Commies! Thugs! By definition!

Dammit, don't you understand the implications of the word union? Those people want to ruin our country!

The worst ones are the Union of Concerned Scientists!

Every time you hear the word union, folks, remember there's an unspoken word lurking in the bushes. That word is soviet!

What's that? A more perfect union?

GET OFF MY PHONE, YOU MORON!

[subliminal mumbling in background]

unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet

Cackle.

352 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:07:04am

re: #344 MandyManners

I Googled Orwell and found zip. However, I found a lot for Wells.

It was Wells. He and Orwell were polar opposites, IMHO.

353 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:07:23am

re: #347 Silvergirl

The MSM is sinking because they portray two sides to every story? That is a new take.


Too hard to cover the other nine sides.

354 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:08:19am

re: #310 Desert Dog

Sorry. "The debate is over". Booing and chanting have found a way in to this meme.

355 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:08:21am
356 AG in Houston  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:08:24am

The political discourse in this country has become noxious at best - left, right, center, fringe, et al.

It's why I don't vote for anyone anymore.

357 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:08:27am

re: #346 Charles

I'm putting the mark of "mob" on many of the people I've seen in videos of the town hall meetings. I am. I don't care what the media says about it. This is my opinion.

What I saw is embarrassing, pathetic, and makes me sad about what's happening to the Republican Party.

I'm a helluva a lot more worried about what's happening to my country.

358 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:08:36am

re: #347 Silvergirl

I don't get that part.

The MSM is sinking because they portray two sides to every story? That is a new take.

I think the point is not every fact has two sides.

359 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:08:55am

re: #326 Silvergirl

I don't know anything about what iceweasel may or may not have said. What I want to clarify is that for some of the folks in the tea party movement to have not known what the sexually charged term teabagging meant does not mean stupidity. Is there no longer any room in the world for such a thing as innocence? Innocence = stupidity? I thought it was despicable (I'll say it with lots of Daffy Duck/Bugs Bunny spittle) when the likes of Anderson Cooper and Rachel Maddow made their snide commentary.

That is my point, not knowing sexually charged terms does not equate to stupidity.
Marginalizing the intellect of an opponent has been a Liberal tactic for as long as I can remember

360 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:10:03am

re: #351 Cato the Elder

Right, because God forbid any union members [= un-American commies, nudge, wink] should attend a town hall meeting.

And showing up at said meeting with the intention of shutting it down is not intimidation, why, it's self-defense. There are union members there! Commies! Thugs! By definition!

Dammit, don't you understand the implications of the word union? Those people want to ruin our country!

The worst ones are the Union of Concerned Scientists!

Every time you hear the word union, folks, remember there's an unspoken word lurking in the bushes. That word is soviet!

What's that? A more perfect union?

GET OFF MY PHONE, YOU MORON!

[subliminal mumbling in background]

unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet unionsoviet

Cackle.

So, those big burly dudes standing around acting like bouncers were just peaceful citizens interacting with their fellow citizens? Ya right.

361 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:10:06am

Fun stuff today. I have to run. Saturday!

Everybody be nice to each other. Just like at the townhalls! Heh!

362 sngnsgt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:10:17am
363 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:10:19am

re: #347 Silvergirl

I don't get that part.

The MSM is sinking because they portray two sides to every story? That is a new take.

No, it is not a new take.

The MSM is sinking, in part, because they like to portray facts as if they always had two sides. Some of the coverage (Fox news, Lou Dobbs) of nirtherism was like that. "Well, some people ate asking questions, so we have to cover it like those questions are legitimate!"

It's exactly like creationism and the ID tactic of "Teach the controversy!"
Sometimes there is no controversy, and you do people an intellectual disservice and betray your trade by pretending that there is and by 'teaching the controversy'.

364 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:10:25am

re: #347 Silvergirl

I don't get that part.

The MSM is sinking because they portray two sides to every story? That is a new take.

I think I get ice's point. The MSM does a lot of PC stuff, such as when faced with a cold-blooded, lunatic, murderer ... asking things like, "was he mistreated as a child" ... et cetera.

365 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:10:34am

re: #357 wahabicorridor

I'm a helluva a lot more worried about what's happening to my country.

How is the right supposed to stop the left when they're busy going insane?

366 JRHelgeson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:10:36am

re: #43 Charles

Those are good questions -- but none of the people disrupting these meetings have any interest whatsoever in asking any real questions, or engaging in any debate. It's thuggish behavior, encouraged by irresponsible idiots like Hannity and Beck.

Charles, have you watched any of the video of the town hall debates, or actually read the bill? We are asking the tough questions, but any time we bring up the truth, they think we're giving them hell - and they don't like it.

367 LeslieG  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:10:39am
After the President himself talked about getting in people’s faces when they oppose his policies and setting up snitch lines at the White House, the only shocker in this video is that it took so long for townhalls to turn violent. The SEIU showed up in t-shirted uniform to a townhall meeting for Rep. Russ Carnahan in St. Louis, apparently intent on demonstrating union tactics in organizing elections if Congress passes Card Check. The video below shows the immediate aftermath of the attack, including the arrest of one of the SEIU’s thugs

SEIU activists try to set ObamaCare opponents straight

368 dwells38  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:11:14am

re: #342 Pianobuff

Hey that was a conservative thug who was unpeaceable and hurting good honest union member's knuckes with his face.

They HAD to knock him down and kick him in self-defense!
/

369 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:11:18am

I went to a Town Hall meeting here (near Philly), and I am not paid, not a Republican, nor am I a supporter of this Health Care Reform bill. There was no violence, not much shouting, and there was a respectful audience who disagreed with our Congressman--a Democrat, who wasn't pleased with our questions, comments nor presence as dissenters. She made it known that she thought that we were a "rent-a-mob" and THAT made a lot of people very unhappy. Instead of screaming and shouting--although one man did shout at her--we all walked out. I didn't come with anyone, wasn't responding to a call to come to a TH, but I did go away with some new acquaintances with whom I found a lot of common ground, much to my surprise--they were young, middle aged and seniors--some Republicans, some Democrats, and several who said they were Independents. We exchanged telephone numbers and e-mail addresses and vowed to keep in touch and turn up the heat on this smug, self-righteous congresswoman. We won't be voting for her again--ever--and we will be coming back to any TH meetings she calls--and writing letters--real letters. I don't like to be characterized as part of the lunatic fringe--none of us are in the lunatic fringe, that I could see. Not only is it unfair, this name calling DOES make me mad and I can see how it can push me into expressing it in ways I don't consider civil. I don't want to do that, but I can see this may, indeed, happen in the future, if our representatives continue to behave in this way. Oh, and by the way, I AM in a union--and have never picketed or carried signs of protest anywhere. There were ACORN people at this meeting--and union people in self-identifying tee-shirts--and these union people were big people--with their arms folded across their chests in many cases, and standing against the wall watching us. One ACORN rep had a video camera--and when someone from the audience asked what she was filming--the ACORNette refused to answer and kept the camera on him until he got up and left. This ignorant "filmmaker" then snickered and spoke to another ACORN person standing next to her. This is very, very scary, lizards.

370 harpsicon  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:11:25am

re: #351 Cato the Elder

So why don't you read a first-person account of the black guy being beaten up, and what the union guys were doing there.

[Link: pajamasmedia.com...]

371 filetandrelease  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:11:27am

Sorry to pop in and out, but it seems to me these "mobs" are our best chance to derail the imminent passing of the fast track of Obamacare. People are furious, Washington needs to know. If they didn't they do now. Just maybe it will have an impact where nothing else has.

Polite discourse, now that would be a waste of time.

372 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:11:29am

iceweasel is contorting what "astroturfing" means. Astroturfing refers to elites who push their agenda by fabricating an illusion of "grass roots" support. Like a political movement that claims it is based on small contributions from grass roots supporters when in reality there are a few rich people quietly providing the millions.

Do you really think all those unruly people at town hall meetings are just robots being directed by elites hiding in the background?

373 Flyers1974  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:11:48am

re: #221 Sharmuta

Look- we can't decry the thug tactics on the left and then hypocritically adopt them because we think they work. The reason why the right has lost is because it ceased being the party of the right, started spending like democrats. We did ourselves in with bad policies. Just because these tactics were used by the left doesn't mean they were successful. If folks are going to promote the idea of acting like thugs, then be prepared for rational people to part company.

For example, thirty years plus after the end of the Vietnam War, the image of the Democratic Party is still influenced by some of those protesters' behavior.

374 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:11:54am

re: #346 Charles

I'm putting the mark of "mob" on many of the people I've seen in videos of the town hall meetings. I am. I don't care what the media says about it. This is my opinion.

What I saw is embarrassing, pathetic, and makes me sad about what's happening to the Republican Party.

You call it as you see it. That's American freedom of speech.

375 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:11:57am

re: #342 Pianobuff

Gee. I thought a conservative black man was beaten up by SEIU thugs who also hurled racial epithets at him. That was outside a town hall too. Was I mistaken about that?

Tsk, tsk, don't you know that the protestors all are stupid?
The union member in St. Louis who opposes Obama needed to be roughed up by SEIU thugs, never mind that he has stage four cancer.
It's for the greater good, don't you see?

376 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:12:00am

re: #369 katemaclaren

The boring, uneventful, well behaved town hall meetings will not be posted on youtube- so we will not hear about those.

377 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:12:02am

re: #345 iceweasel

Explain what that has to do with what I posted.

Bullshit. This site rips the hell out of Obama and Democrats on a regular basis. You're crying because it's criticising 'the right'-- and rightfully so--- in a story about the right's awful behaviour-- and 'not even referencing the DNC!'

That kind of crap is what's sinking the MSM, btw-- pretending there are always 'two sides' to every story. Sometimes there aren't.

I assume those words weren't accidentally chosen by you to directly follow reference to the blog posting about the right's awful behavior. Assuming your last sentence was not a non sequiter (correct me if I'm wrong), a reasonable person could interpret your comment to mean that there is only one side to "townhall behavior" story. If you agree that there are two sides, I await your correction.

378 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:12:20am

re: #346 Charles

What I saw is embarrassing, pathetic, and makes me sad about what's happening to the Republican Party.

The party of Lincoln no less.

Who had infinite compassion and was as gentle as a woman, his contemporaries said.

How very sad.

379 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:12:53am

re: #342 Pianobuff

Gee. I thought a conservative black man was beaten up by SEIU thugs who also hurled racial epithets at him. That was outside a town hall too. Was I mistaken about that?

Ozero said that the conservative black man acted "stupidly" when confronted by the SEIU member. He said he should have just obeyed the Union members orders and cooperated with him. Oh, and the fact that he called him the "N" word had nothing to do with race as it is a term of endearment in "Black America"
///

380 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:13:00am

re: #255 MandyManners

I wish I could give you a dozen updings for this post, Mandy. In fact, I wish you had gone with me to the TH.

381 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:13:29am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

No, not dangerously nuts in my opinion, it's freedom of speech, even if some people don't like it.

Sure, you are going to have certain types at these rally's who don't help the issue, but guess what? Conservatives tend not to stifle speech or work from a base of a group meme. That's the purvey of progressives.

So, conservatives have more people speaking out in numerous way, sometimes crazy, most times intelligent dialog, and I in no way want to see us be cowered into keeping our mouth shut.

Progressive own that meme, group speak, what's proper or not according to the social group, you know, all that stuff that sounds like 1984.

Keep shouting, rally on.

I dinged this up, y'know why? Because the opposition has no votes. And I have no faith at all in the rationality of the democrats lead by Pelosi and Obama, Frank and Franken. Anyway, should I be surprised that WLN is in favor of a little street theater?

382 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:13:46am

re: #347 Silvergirl

I don't get that part.

The MSM is sinking because they portray two sides to every story? That is a new take.

Actually, that is a concept in that is part of the "entertainment" value of (ahem-spit) broadcast journalism these days. To present both sides makes controversy and therefore entertainment. i.e. holocaust deniers.

I heard this idea on a more liberal podcast entitled "Talking Right and Left". From Stanford U on iTunes U. The left leaning panelists stated that very concept and used the holocaust deniers as an example. Not every side needs to be given equal time simply because it validates weak premises.

383 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:13:56am

re: #371 filetandrelease

Sorry to pop in and out, but it seems to me these "mobs" are our best chance to derail the imminent passing of the fast track of Obamacare. People are furious, Washington needs to know. If they didn't they do now. Just maybe it will have an impact where nothing else has.

Polite discourse, now that would be a waste of time.

Right.

At this point I'm hoping the bill passes just so all the screaming "Reel Merkins" will have aneurysms and die.

384 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:14:02am

re: #369 katemaclaren

Now THAT was a much more dignified and civil response than behaving like a mob. Keep in touch with those folks and keep contacting your Rep's office with polite but tough correspondence.

385 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:14:16am

re: #363 iceweasel

No, it is not a new take.

The MSM is sinking, in part, because they like to portray facts as if they always had two sides. Some of the coverage (Fox news, Lou Dobbs) of nirtherism was like that. "Well, some people ate asking questions, so we have to cover it like those questions are legitimate!"

It's exactly like creationism and the ID tactic of "Teach the controversy!"
Sometimes there is no controversy, and you do people an intellectual disservice and betray your trade by pretending that there is and by 'teaching the controversy'.

Whew! That's good to know, there are no Nirther nuts to create a controversy.Lou Dobbs is doing it.

386 horatiolust  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:14:19am
There’s a place for yelling, screaming, and protesting — at demonstrations scheduled for that purpose. When these Tea Partiers and Glenn Beck drones charge into town hall meetings, shout down speakers, and act like angry children throwing tantrums, they achieve nothing but to further cement the impression that the right wing is going dangerously nuts.


Charles--

Can you provide links on your site to when you made the same comments about Code Pink demonstrations and interruptions of Congressional hearings, the anti-war marches comparing Bush to Hitler, the Minuteman speech that was shouted down at Columbia, the Ann Coulter pie-throwing incident, the "assault" on Condi Rice by the woman holding up "blood-stained" hands, etc...

387 gregb  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:14:39am

Not to excuse their behavior, but in the Bush-code-pink-sheehan world it seems that, in the absence of voting them out, congress only "feels" their way to the support or rejection of issues and policy. I think it's a sad day when politics has devolved to that.

It's completely illogical and emotive.

388 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:14:43am

re: #359 opnion

That is my point, not knowing sexually charged terms does not equate to stupidity.
Marginalizing the intellect of an opponent has been a Liberal tactic for as long as I can remember

Equating liberals with intellectual elitism and sexual depravity has been a Rethuglican tactic for as long as I can remember. ///

See how easy that was? Wasn't that statement of mine unfair to the vast majority of conservatives and Republicans?

Maybe you should think twice too before making similar generalisations about "Liberal tactics"?
Not sayin', I'm just sayin.

389 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:16:15am

re: #313 Sharmuta

Wasn't Orwell into eugenics? Isn't that the big smear now?

Wot? That doesn't sound right.

390 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:16:23am

re: #363 iceweasel

No, it is not a new take.

The MSM is sinking, in part, because they like to portray facts as if they always had two sides. Some of the coverage (Fox news, Lou Dobbs) of nirtherism was like that. "Well, some people ate asking questions, so we have to cover it like those questions are legitimate!"

It's exactly like creationism and the ID tactic of "Teach the controversy!"
Sometimes there is no controversy, and you do people an intellectual disservice and betray your trade by pretending that there is and by 'teaching the controversy'.

The MSM is sinking because they have tilted to the left for years and people are sick of it. What is so hard to figure out? Most newspapers, almost all Network/Cable news outlets and many magazines are all to the left of center. Almost all graduates of journalism school and editors are Democrats. They see things through that lens. When someone dares challenge them like talk radio or the rightly blogs or FoxNews, they cry like babies.

The days of the MSM being a "watchdog" is over, they've become "lapdogs" now.

Technology has passed them by as well. If you do not want to listen to a newscast from someone who holds your beliefs in contempt, you have alternative sources now.

391 abbyadams  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:16:30am

Re: 363 iceweasel

Sometimes there is no controversy, and you do people an intellectual disservice and betray your trade by pretending that there is and by 'teaching the controversy'.

1000 updings. Remember when you were told "There is no such thing as a stupid question?" That ends when you become an adult. Some questions are stupid, and should be treated as such.

392 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:16:35am

Aw shit!

Five bucks on #425 !

393 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:16:54am

re: #365 Sharmuta

How is the right supposed to stop the left when they're busy going insane?

and vice verse in some instances. The extremes are gaining too much publicity and deflecting our attention. I find this extremely scary because in the confusion, we may not notice what is really happening.

394 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:16:55am

re: #389 itellu3times

Caught my mistake! Sorry about that. My bad.

395 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:17:02am

Right now there could be tons of videos on Youtube showing conservatives asking the real questions about healthcare, and they could all be gotchas if the debate were handled civilly. There are moderate R's who are showing up at these meetings who are being stifled and never allowed to present their questions by the insane children screaming in their own party.

The Dems own some guilt in this, they are going to be out there trying to push some buttons knowing that the Pundit strategy is to send in the clowns. If you allow your buttons to be pushed so easily that makes you their meat puppet and you are giving them exactly what they want instead of a hardball question.

“Anyone can be angry. That is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, in the right way — that is not easy.”

– Aristotle, “Nicomachean Ethics”

Town halls being watched and recorded by the media due to the "Pelosi pre-recess preparation" are not the places to be angry.

396 directorblue  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:17:04am

Gee, what a coincidence that all of the real trouble started once Obama called out his brownshirts (ACORN and the SEIU, but I repeat myself).

[Link: www.760kfmb.com...]

As Mark Levin said recently, "If anyone gets hurt at these meetings, President Obama will bear some of the responsibility."

397 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:17:11am

re: #379 VegasRick

Ozero said that the conservative black man acted "stupidly" when confronted by the SEIU member. He said he should have just obeyed the Union members orders and cooperated with him. Oh, and the fact that he called him the "N" word had nothing to do with race as it is a term of endearment in "Black America"
///

Stellar analysis. Anyone who is administered a beat down by thugs for Obama is stupid & had it coming. Don't you see that being verbally disruptive is far worse than assualt & battery?

398 Flyers1974  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:17:33am

re: #359 opnion

That is my point, not knowing sexually charged terms does not equate to stupidity.
Marginalizing the intellect of an opponent has been a Liberal tactic for as long as I can remember

399 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:17:54am

re: #337 opnion

You know what I mean, you cast the aspersion stupid around a lot

False. I use it about tactics, but I don't use it about people.

400 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:18:07am

Funny how many lizards who vehemently disagree with Charles on this issue never have the guts to downding him.

401 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:18:28am

re: #388 iceweasel

Equating liberals with intellectual elitism and sexual depravity has been a Rethuglican tactic for as long as I can remember. ///

See how easy that was? Wasn't that statement of mine unfair to the vast majority of conservatives and Republicans?

I dunno, more like it was unfair to the majority of liberals who are proud to be so described and self-described and don't want you putting that negative spin on it.

402 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:18:32am

re: #386 horatiolust

Charles--

Can you provide links on your site to when you made the same comments about Code Pink demonstrations and interruptions of Congressional hearings, the anti-war marches comparing Bush to Hitler, the Minuteman speech that was shouted down at Columbia, the Ann Coulter pie-throwing incident, the "assault" on Condi Rice by the woman holding up "blood-stained" hands, etc...

Instead of providing your links, I'll cordially invite you to bite me.

403 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:18:39am

re: #400 Cato the Elder

O boy a ding war

404 huckfunn  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:18:42am

re: #351 Cato the Elder

Right, because God forbid any union members [= un-American commies, nudge, wink] should attend a town hall meeting.

And showing up at said meeting with the intention of shutting it down is not intimidation, why, it's self-defense. There are union members there! Commies! Thugs! By definition!

Dammit, don't you understand the implications of the word union? Those people want to ruin our country!

The worst ones are the Union of Concerned Scientists!

Every time you hear the word union, folks, remember there's an unspoken word lurking in the bushes. That word is soviet!

What's that? A more perfect union?

GET OFF MY PHONE, YOU MORON!

Well said! What we are looking at is an attempted socialist revolution. The left will use any means including intimidation, gerrymandering by ACORN, deceit, judicial activism or plain old union thuggery to attain their goals. The hell with fightin' fair.

405 1SG(ret)  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:19:25am

When anyone, left or right starts writing Laws/Legislation that diminishes the very thing that I spent my life creating for myself and family, I get pissed. When I get pissed, I tend to take it to the one screwing things up. I will get in their face if needed to make my point (rather not, but seems they don't listen if I'm very polite). If it comes to that then, I don't expect them to like it and really hope they don't, but for sure they know what I think. Heath care (takeover) is but one issue, this congress is doing to piss people off. So I'm sure as things progress people will be pissed for a while.

406 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:19:33am

re: #386 horatiolust

All of that is in the archives, there's a search field up above, use it.

407 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:19:38am

re: #400 Cato the Elder

Rama dama ding down

408 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:19:40am

re: #400 Cato the Elder

Funny how many lizards who vehemently disagree with Charles on this issue never have the guts to downding him.

What you see as lack of "guts" others might call good eitquette.

409 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:19:48am

re: #388 iceweasel

Equating liberals with intellectual elitism and sexual depravity has been a Rethuglican tactic for as long as I can remember. ///

See how easy that was? Wasn't that statement of mine unfair to the vast majority of conservatives and Republicans?

Maybe you should think twice too before making similar generalisations about "Liberal tactics"?
Not sayin', I'm just sayin.

What? You always seem to set up a straw man & then attack it.
Who equated Liberals with sexual depravity?

410 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:20:01am

re: #393 ggt

and vice verse in some instances. The extremes are gaining too much publicity and deflecting our attention. I find this extremely scary because in the confusion, we may not notice what is really happening.

As I said yesterday- the well of political discourse is poisoned and there are multiple parties that benefit from keeping it that way. People are tired of dirty politics, and it's what keeps some people from participating in the process at all. Now people on both sides of the spectrum are trying to convince us which kool-aid tastes better. I'd really rather find a new well where normal people can drink.

411 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:20:23am

re: #402 Charles

Instead of providing your links, I'll cordially invite you to bite me.

(*muttering* ... SHIT! I almost typed #400 instead of #425!)

412 LeslieG  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:20:29am

ORGANIZING THE 'WRONG' COMMUNITY

Get this: The party of “community organizers” is now whining that President Obama’s critics are organizing communities — against his health-care scheme.

The nerve of ‘em, huh?

Faced with mushrooming opposition to ObamaCare, Democrats have launched a multi-media campaign that attacks foes as “extremists” who’ve “called out the mob” to “destroy President Obama” and “intimidate and silence regular people.” They cite “the playbook of high-level Republican political operatives.”

Actually, that sounds more like the tactics of the Chicago street, where Barack Obama and Rahm Emanuel cut their political teeth. Indeed, you can almost hear Richard Nixon grousing about angry anti-war protestors and pleading for “the great silent majority of Americans” to rise up.

413 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:20:37am

re: #338 jaunte

re: Woodstock.
Thomas Frank wrote an interesting book, The Conquest of Cool: Business Culture, Counterculture, and the Rise of Hip Consumerism that suggest that woodstock (and the whole '60's experience) was part of a blending of the tendencies of youthful revolution into an ongoing "counter-culture" consumerist attitude: rebelling by consuming.
See Whole Foods, as an example.

I've referred to Conquest of Cool many times here at LGF, though not recently. I have called it the Rosetta Stone of media bias, for example, since it documents the existence of a profit motive for the link between media culture and leftist politics.
Of course, there was also a genuine (small c) counterculture at the time. This article, History of the Hippie Movement, has some interesting insights, going all the way back to the Wandervogel movement in Germany in the late 19th century.

414 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:20:50am

re: #385 opnion

Whew! That's good to know, there are no Nirther nuts to create a controversy.Lou Dobbs is doing it.

Would you like some of the many links available to Lou Dobbs pushing the nither crap? I believe Charles has posted at least one here too.

Dobbs pushed it, hard.

415 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:20:57am

re: #400 Cato the Elder

Funny how many lizards who vehemently disagree with Charles on this issue never have the guts to downding him.

You first, Cowardly Lion

416 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:21:03am

re: #378 Ojoe

The party of Lincoln no less.

Who had infinite compassion and was as gentle as a woman, his contemporaries said.

How very sad.

How hard it must have been for Lincoln to take his country into civil war for principle's sake.

Maybe he wasn't only as gentle as a woman -- but also stronger than many men.

417 filetandrelease  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:21:05am

re: #365 Sharmuta

How is the right supposed to stop the left when they're busy going insane?

Too strong a discription. Not insane, furious.

418 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:21:10am

re: #404 huckfunn

Well said! What we are looking at is an attempted socialist revolution. The left will use any means including intimidation, gerrymandering by ACORN, deceit, judicial activism or plain old union thuggery to attain their goals. The hell with fightin' fair.

Um, I guess the concept of satire went uncovered in whatever English class you took?

Since I don't do "sarc tags" and you apparently wouldn't know sarcasm if it bit you on the ass, let me making it perfectly clear: I was mocking Glenn Beck and - you.

419 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:21:32am

re: #399 iceweasel

False. I use it about tactics, but I don't use it about people.

Not true, you said that the Tea Party goers were too STUPID to know what teabagging means. Come on, you know that you did on the last thread.

420 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:21:45am

re: #384 Sharmuta

No fear. I will be doing that--in fact, just answered an e-mail from one of them. We're all thinking of changing our voter registration AFTER the election--we're voting Specter out --if possible--even if a Martian is running against him.

421 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:22:13am

I see nothing wrong with calling stupid stupid. And I'm seeing a lot of it here today.

422 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:22:32am

re: #400 Cato the Elder

Funny how many lizards who vehemently disagree with Charles on this issue never have the guts to downding him.

Charles is the host. I show him more respect than a poster. It is called manners, like if you were invited into someones home for dinner and did not like the meal. But of course you relate it in a far different way.

423 huckfunn  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:22:36am

re: #418 Cato the Elder

Since I don't do "sarc tags" and you apparently wouldn't know sarcasm if it bit you on the ass, let me making it perfectly clear: I was mocking Glenn Beck and - you.

I don't really care who you're mocking. I made my point.

424 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:22:41am

re: #386 horatiolust

Charles--

Can you provide links on your site to when you made the same comments about Code Pink demonstrations and interruptions of Congressional hearings, the anti-war marches comparing Bush to Hitler, the Minuteman speech that was shouted down at Columbia, the Ann Coulter pie-throwing incident, the "assault" on Condi Rice by the woman holding up "blood-stained" hands, etc...


What are you talking about? After you are done biting Charles - take a look around the history files here.

425 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:23:11am

re: #416 nonic

Lincoln is so sad

In his 1st inaugural address he said

"In your hands, not mine, my dissatisfied fellow countrymen, lies the momentous issue of civil war."

Can you imagine

426 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:23:24am

re: #420 katemaclaren

I appreciate the bi-partisan and adult attitude of your little group.

427 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:23:42am

re: #378 Ojoe

The party of Lincoln no less.

Who had infinite compassion and was as gentle as a woman, his contemporaries said.

How very sad.

join the Three Legged Peasant Party...we'll put a whoopin on spending!

428 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:24:05am

re: #396 directorblue

Where do you get Obama out of this? It might be his desire and goal to get a plan, but the strategerizing here has Pelosi stamped all over it. Congress is writing the bill, congress will take the lumps along with the O. Pelosi's and Dingell's staffers have more input into the bill than Obama does, and the Blue Dogs have more control over the bill than he does. Using this as just another opportunity to attack Obama is a strategy for the fail.

429 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:24:14am

re: #381 itellu3times

I dinged this up, y'know why? Because the opposition has no votes. And I have no faith at all in the rationality of the democrats lead by Pelosi and Obama, Frank and Franken. Anyway, should I be surprised that WLN is in favor of a little street theater?

Thanks.

430 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:24:22am

When Dingell argued that Congress wouldn't touch tort reform (probably the single worst problem with our current health care system) because it could only handle so much at one time, who wouldn't give out a derisive snort?

The Democrat Congress won't touch tort reform because it's the party of the lawyers, by the lawyers, and for the lawyers. What's more, the occasional casino verdict can be paraded before the less perceptive of their voter base---the same folk who think buying lottery tickets makes good financial sense---as an example of how the Dems "fight for the little guy".

No one should shout down a speaker, even a shameless liar such as Dingell. But specific instances of laughable lies and evasions should be met, in a public forum such as these "town halls", with derision, laughter, boos and hisses. Then, a patient silence, waiting in case he has anything honest to say or any point to make.

431 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:24:26am

I can hardly believe that after the incredibly harsh mockery and criticism I've directed at the left for YEARS, for acting like children throwing tantrums in public, someone can actually come in and demand that I show him links to where I've ever criticized people like Code Pink.

Unbelievable.

432 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:24:40am

re: #414 iceweasel

Would you like some of the many links available to Lou Dobbs pushing the nither crap? I believe Charles has posted at least one here too.

Dobbs pushed it, hard.


But, he did not create the controversy. There are Nirther nuts out there with or without Lou Dobbs & I do believe that you knew what I meant,.

433 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:24:44am

re: #427 albusteve

Which party is that? Really?

LOL

434 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:24:46am

re: #310 Desert Dog

Amen. Healthcare is literally a matter of life and death.

People may not be 100% happy with their current access to it, but they mostly understand it.

Our leaders are now trying to make massive changes to the system without explaining it to the public, and without even reading the legislation.

We just watched them pass a massive "stimulus" bill, after which things have gotten even worse. And it has become obvious that they didn't think through the cash for clunkers program, either.

Now they wonder why the public is digging in its heels against being dragged over another cliff, when this time people know that a badly designed law could literally kill them or someone they love?

435 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:24:57am

re: #390 Desert Dog

The MSM is sinking because they have tilted to the left for years and people are sick of it. What is so hard to figure out? Most newspapers, almost all Network/Cable news outlets and many magazines are all to the left of center. Almost all graduates of journalism school and editors are Democrats. They see things through that lens. When someone dares challenge them like talk radio or the rightly blogs or FoxNews, they cry like babies.

The days of the MSM being a "watchdog" is over, they've become "lapdogs" now.

Technology has passed them by as well. If you do not want to listen to a newscast from someone who holds your beliefs in contempt, you have alternative sources now.

The MSM is sinking because they have been ignoring the journalism side of their endeavors for the business/i> side. Capitalism will be blamed, but in truth it is the consumer that buys the product and it SELLS. I've heard this concern from Liberal and Conservative sides. Althought every commentator has their own reasons --from Capitalism and big business, the government, to the control of special interest groups.

One thing is clear : somehow, there is agreement that the MSM is gotten way off track and have to find a way to meet in the middle. I think it may be blogs and the internet.

436 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:25:32am

re: #402 Charles

Instead of providing your links, I'll cordially invite you to bite me.

I suggest the poster search "Pinko" in the archives. Personally, I've made a specialty of hammering the pop-left on this site for 8 years, in literally thousands of messages.
They are all there for any registered member to see.

437 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:25:34am

re: #421 Cato the Elder

I see nothing wrong with calling stupid stupid. And I'm seeing a lot of it here today.

Cause your so damn smart?

438 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:25:46am

re: #431 Charles

I can hardly believe that after the incredibly harsh mockery and criticism I've directed at the left for YEARS, for acting like children throwing tantrums in public, someone can actually come in and demand that I show him links to where I've ever criticized people like Code Pink.

Unbelievable.

What's more- some people advocate behaving like that and are then surprised you still see it as worthy of the same criticisms! Amazing!

439 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:25:48am

Now posted at Free Republic: Charles Johnson of LGF supports violence against American citizens.

Charles Johnson of LGF supports violence against American citizens.

Posted on August 8, 2009 10:14:58 AM PDT by pmedia

I will not link to his site but the slimeball Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs IS BLAMING AMERICAN CITIZENS FOR VIOLENCE BEING PERPETRATED AGAINST THEM.

This racist bigot has posted hateful things about arabs & muslims for years (not just terrorists but all muslims). Violence is wrong!

Now surprise surprise when a black man is beaten & hospitalized in St. Louis by SEIU thugs and a cancer patient and business man are assaulted in Tampa by SEIU thugs it's their own fault.

This man has a DEFECT and it's sick that any conservative EVER listened to him just because the United States was in an armed conflict (that was correct) and he gets off watching innocent people get hurt. Violence is wrong!

440 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:26:02am

re: #420 katemaclaren

No fear. I will be doing that--in fact, just answered an e-mail from one of them. We're all thinking of changing our voter registration AFTER the election--we're voting Specter out --if possible--even if a Martian is running against him.

Do I have a candidate for you!

441 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:26:11am

re: #413 Shiplord Kirel

What a great link! Thanks!

442 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:26:19am

re: #431 Charles

I can hardly believe that after the incredibly harsh mockery and criticism I've directed at the left for YEARS, for acting like children throwing tantrums in public, someone can actually come in and demand that I show him links to where I've ever criticized people like Code Pink.

Unbelievable.

It's like somebody asking Zombie whether he/she has ever actually been to San Francisco.

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:26:23am

re: #201 harpsicon


So what's a conservative or classical liberal supposed to do? It has been pointed out that Gandhi was quite lucky to be going up against the British with his satyagraha; had it been Hitler or Stalin he would have simply disappeared. America isn't at all a brutal dictatorship, but it's hardly Marquis of Queensbury rules in our politics today either.

Read up on British behavior in India at times. Yes, Stalin would have wiped Gandhi out, but he was not exactly up against sweethearts.

Unlike Gandhi, we have our own country. We have our own voice. We have midterm elections coming up.

Let's not act like fools just because we have the freedom to.

444 filetandrelease  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:27:02am

re: #383 Cato the Elder

Right.

At this point I'm hoping the bill passes just so all the screaming "Reel Merkins" will have aneurysms and die.

Nice. As long as it makes you feel better.

445 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:27:07am

re: #421 Cato the Elder

I see nothing wrong with calling stupid stupid. And I'm seeing a lot of it here today.

You must see a lot of stupid being posted when YOU are here.

446 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:27:09am

re: #405 1SG(ret)

And thank you for your service, Sir.

447 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:27:11am

re: #118 Sharmuta

When we start electing representatives instead of party members, perhaps you will get your wish. Why people are surprised that democrats would sell democrat legislation to the electorate is beyond me. That's what politicians always do- you folks are just noticing?

Dennis: "Now we see the violence inherent in the system--Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

--Monty Python and the Holy Grail

448 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:27:49am

re: #439 Charles

They really have nerve.

449 huckfunn  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:27:50am

re: #439 Charles

Now posted at Free Republic: Charles Johnson of LGF supports violence against American citizens.

YIKES! That's ugly!

450 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:27:59am

re: #419 opnion

Not true, you said that the Tea Party goers were too STUPID to know what teabagging means. Come on, you know that you did on the last thread.

A group. Not any one person.

But yes, they (or their organisers) were too stupid to google it, and the many right bloggers frantically blogging about it were all too stupid to know they were being laughed at. For weeks. Because they apparently don't use google. or read left blogs (but we read them!)

Sorry, I'll stand by that claim. They were stupid. People can stamp their feet and wail over how incivil the left is, and how mean and nasty they are for pointing out idiotic behaviour...but that's really no different from the crying and whining that nirtherim is all because of the evil left giving it attention.

Jesus. internet age. Invent a neologism or an acronym, you google it first. Duh.

451 MacDuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:28:04am

I'll have to come down on the side of Water on this one. Is this type of behavior tacky? Yes. Is it impolitic? Yes. Is it self-defeating? Probably. Is it "free speech"? Yes.

After years of absolutely bizarre, distasteful and offensive behavior having been absolved as "freedom of speech" and "freedom of expression", I find it amazing that we are actually discussing whether simple "rudeness" should be absolved accordingly.

452 anotherindyfilmguy  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:28:09am

I hate to point this out but no matter what the opposition says or does at these town meetings the Dems will smear them. Being civil and playing along to get along is hat has landed the rest of us facing this horrific train wreck of an administration and the culmination of decades of massive undermining of the U.S. from within by Liberal groups etc where it could end up bankrupting all of us at the very least.

Don't play "nice" anymore, "get in their faces".

Like "elite" spoiled kids the party line Dems only realize they've gone to far when the handcuffs are finally wrapped around their wrists or they are unelected. Nothing the opposition to this has to say will mean anything to them unless it is pounded into them over and over again OR they come to the realization that many of the people they are beating/shutting out/smearing are from their own party at election time.

453 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:28:13am

re: #439 Charles

What's the next step beyond lunacy?

454 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:28:21am

re: #440 MandyManners

LOL!!!

455 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:28:28am

re: #439 Charles

More tantrums. Time to grow up, pmedia.

456 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:28:32am

re: #437 opnion

Cause your so damn smart?

I dont no about that, but at leest I no how two spell.

457 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:28:45am

re: #439 Charles

Now posted at Free Republic: Charles Johnson of LGF supports violence against American citizens.

That right there is pure hatred.

458 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:29:02am

re: #410 Sharmuta

As I said yesterday- the well of political discourse is poisoned and there are multiple parties that benefit from keeping it that way. People are tired of dirty politics, and it's what keeps some people from participating in the process at all. Now people on both sides of the spectrum are trying to convince us which kool-aid tastes better. I'd really rather find a new well where normal people can drink.

I guess I get frustrated because THIS IS AMERICA. We have the ability--with the internet it's rather easy--to read/watch the source and make-up our OWN minds. We don't have to take the word of pundits.

459 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:29:02am

re: #428 Thanos

Where do you get Obama out of this? It might be his desire and goal to get a plan, but the strategerizing here has Pelosi stamped all over it. Congress is writing the bill, congress will take the lumps along with the O. Pelosi's and Dingell's staffers have more input into the bill than Obama does, and the Blue Dogs have more control over the bill than he does. Using this as just another opportunity to attack Obama is a strategy for the fail.

So, this is not Obama's plan? His guys are not over there at the Capitol building knee deep in this bill? He is not staking his political future on it? Really?

460 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:29:12am

re: #400 Cato the Elder

Funny how many lizards who vehemently disagree with Charles on this issue never have the guts to downding him.

First off, I don't totally disagree with him, but I disagree with the general idea of stifling anyones public display of dissent. And, I would imagine that my comments on this thread are a good enough indicator as to how much I agree or disagree with Charles.

Just for your pleasure, I will down ding him. Charles, prepare to be down dinged :)

461 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:29:16am

re: #445 VegasRick

You must see a lot of stupid being posted when YOU are here.

Oh, and iceweasel too.

462 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:29:31am

The garbled phrasing of that post at Free Republic sounds a lot like a certain stalker, and whoever it is just registered today:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

463 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:29:35am

re: #248 wrenchwench

The argument that "they did it, now it's our turn" is unbelievably lame. I don't listen to Rush much these days, but I caught him using that this week. He's supposed to be so smart.

Being the oppressed opposition is incredibly fun, which is why it catches on so easily.

464 filetandrelease  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:29:54am

re: #421 Cato the Elder

I see nothing wrong with calling stupid stupid. And I'm seeing a lot of it here today.

Don't cut yourself shaving.

465 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:30:25am

re: #458 ggt

I guess I get frustrated because THIS IS AMERICA. We have the ability--with the internet it's rather easy--to read/watch the source and make-up our OWN minds. We don't have to take the word of pundits.

People like getting spoon fed. They want propaganda that confirms what they already think. Very few people take the time to fact check.

466 rwmofo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:30:33am

Swap the parties and the issue to say, "Conservatives pushing partial privatization of social security" and the mobs get re-labeled as "peaceful families with children singing along while carrying baskets of puppies." Katie Couric would report the grass-roots glee from all over the country.

467 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:30:35am

re: #445 VegasRick

You must see a lot of stupid being posted when YOU are here.

And even when I'm not. All I have to do is go away and check back later.

468 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:30:45am

re: #430 lostlakehiker

No one should shout down a speaker, even a shameless liar such as Dingell. But specific instances of laughable lies and evasions should be met, in a public forum such as these "town halls", with derision, laughter, boos and hisses.

What makes it worse is that Dingell can not speak coherently any more nor give intelligent answers to questions. He can perhaps read a statement but its not clear he even understands what he is reading. I don't think anyone should take it easy on him because his mind is failing. After he retires and leaves office, sure. Let him alone. But because he refuses to relinquish his seat even though his brain is turning to pancake batter he deserves all the ridicule he gets.

469 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:30:46am

So what is your problem, Cato?

470 directorblue  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:30:54am

re: #428 Thanos

Where do you get Obama out of this? It might be his desire and goal to get a plan...


Whether or not he's actually orchestrated the plan, it has his stamp all over it. A public option. No tort reform. Massive deficits, disguised or pushed as far off as possible.

He is a Marxist, through and through, the most radical man ever to set foot in the White House. And his behavior -- setting up a snitch website at whitehouse.gov? -- is more Chavez than JFK.

He is the face of the modern Democrat Party, like it or not. And he is the FAIL, not those who oppose his Statist policies.

471 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:31:27am

re: #463 SanFranciscoZionist

Being the oppressed opposition is incredibly fun, which is why it catches on so easily.


Letting feelings of victimization loose allows an individual the emotional freedom to justify all kinds of bad choices.

472 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:31:36am

re: #462 Charles

He's probably having heart palpitations in anticipation of exposing the hatred in the next private Lizard Lounge...

473 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:31:49am

re: #469 katemaclaren

So what is your problem, Cato?

Teh stoopid.

474 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:31:50am

re: #461 VegasRick

Right- because your contributions are so enlightening.

475 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:31:52am

re: #464 filetandrelease

BOY do YOU deserve an upding or two!!!

476 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:31:59am

re: #424 FrogMarch

What are you talking about? After you are done biting Charles - take a look around the history files here.

or do a search on YouTube.

477 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:31:59am

re: #439 Charles

Pmedia registered there today and doesn't have an about page. My bet is that it's a stalker blog moby.
[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

478 ladycatnip  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:32:27am

ACORN and SEIU thugs have NO business standing around in their red shirts with arms crossed at these TH meetings as though they're de facto security guards; they have no business blocking sidewalk access to the meetings or shutting down conversations on public sidewalks.

If these union thugs want to participate in the debate, take off the red shirts and come as a citizen. The left is accusing the right of sending in organized shills on the down-low, yet the left does it openly with their red shirts.

I have also seen videos where questions were asked in a polite manner only to receive scorn from the elected official. This started with democrats being angry with their elected officials in NY.

The answer to this is for Obama to call off his dogs, reign in his own people, lose the arrogant rhetoric and let the American people know he sincerely wants to hear from us. True to form, however, he's already made it known he expects us to shut up.

479 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:32:28am

re: #473 Cato the Elder

ahhh. Yes. The stoopid. I won't bother quoting Gump, here.

480 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:32:53am

I don't know to what extent this is bad behavior on the part of the town hall attendees and how much is propaganda on the part of Obama's plan's supporters, including the mainstream media. It seems that there is ample evidence on both sides, but nothing conclusive.

It's interesting to note that the MSM is all over this when the protesters (acting badly or not) are on the Republican/right-ish side, but no one except Zombie pays any attention to the Democrat/left-ist ones. That fact feeds my suspicion that lefty propaganda is closer to the truth here. It's obvious to me that the MSM always runs cover for the left. So, I'm not ready to jump on the "criticize the big bad protesters" bandwagon just yet. I'll wait for better evidence.

481 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:32:59am

re: #472 SlartyBartfast

He's probably having heart palpitations in anticipation of exposing the hatred in the next private Lizard Lounge...

I think Charles meant that pmedia had just registered over yonder today.

482 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:33:06am

re: #450 iceweasel

A group. Not any one person.

But yes, they (or their organisers) were too stupid to google it, and the many right bloggers frantically blogging about it were all too stupid to know they were being laughed at. For weeks. Because they apparently don't use google. or read left blogs (but we read them!)

Sorry, I'll stand by that claim. They were stupid. People can stamp their feet and wail over how incivil the left is, and how mean and nasty they are for pointing out idiotic behaviour...but that's really no different from the crying and whining that nirtherim is all because of the evil left giving it attention.

Jesus. internet age. Invent a neologism or an acronym, you google it first. Duh.

So...you do cast aspersions at people which was the original point. Let's at least be consistent.

483 Baelzar  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:33:30am

Any time I hear a group of people chanting some stupid thing, I tune them out. Doesn't matter what they're saying; if they thing chanting is going to make people listen, they're wrong.

If they're chanting to drown out somebody from speaking, they're stupid and wrong.

They're hurting us. You can't give the enemy ammunition like this.

484 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:33:32am

re: #478 ladycatnip

The tone is from the top.

485 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:33:54am

re: #478 ladycatnip

This reminds me of the Black Panthers standing guard at the election in November--with nightsticks--charges were DROPPED --even though they pleaded guilty--thanks to the #3 in the Holder-sphere.

486 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:01am

re: #474 Sharmuta

Right- because your contributions are so enlightening.

Now you went and hurt my feelings.
///psshh

487 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:11am

re: #131 dddave

That is correct. The elderly and those with medical problems, parents with children with health issues in particular are terrified they will be left to die. Look at what Emmanuel's brother wrote about "non-participating citizens" due to dementia. I have read most of the Health Care Bill and it isn't pretty.

If any watched O'Reilly last night you have heard the man who was beaten discuss what happened.

Here's what he said: The man who was beaten was outside the Town Hall meeting giving away "Don't Tread on Me" buttons when a guy wearing an SEIU t-shirt came up to him and said "What kind of $$$ing (N word) are you?" and started beating him up. Both men were black and neither was part of the folks attending these meetings.

488 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:11am

re: #294 unrealizedviewpoint

Folks are only 'now' beginning to recognize their November error. The numbers will continue this downward climb until he finally drops healthcare and moves center.

My God, you're suggesting we rely on representative democracy? What a naif. Only screaming and street theater will work.

///

489 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:17am

re: #459 Desert Dog

So, this is not Obama's plan? His guys are not over there at the Capitol building knee deep in this bill? He is not staking his political future on it? Really?

Of course it's "his bill" -- but does focusing where you will have the least effect make for a good strategy? Focus on Pelosi, Congress, -- if you've got to send some heat, put it where it counts. We can do a sack dance after we do the blocking and tackling...

490 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:18am

re: #477 Thanos

Pmedia registered there today and doesn't have an about page. My bet is that it's a stalker blog moby.
[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Yea. It's probably Rick Martinez, aka Trajan, aka Rodan, etc. The slimy little creep specializes in this kind of thing.

491 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:22am

re: #408 MandyManners

What you see as lack of "guts" others might call good eitquette.

Absolutely correct. Most lizards don't downding unless they are offended by a comment. Or angry at one who's been an ass.

492 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:35am

re: #439 Charles

Now posted at Free Republic: Charles Johnson of LGF supports violence against American citizens.

For the love of God...

As Barry Goldwater ruefully told Bob Dole in 1996, ""We're the new liberals of the Republican party. Can you imagine that?"
The attacks to which Goldwater was responding came largely from the same crowd of kooks who attack Charles's anti-left credentials now.

493 Gang of One  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:41am

re: #453 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What's the next step beyond lunacy?

Deep, cold, outer space.

494 d.w.  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:42am

re: #34 albusteve

Exactly.

495 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:34:45am

re: #445 VegasRick

You must see a lot of stupid being posted when YOU are here.

I would also ask Cato , while he is challenging people for not downding Charles, has he himslf ever done it?
Seems like it might be a breach of etiquete to dis the host , but Cato sees it as a lack of guts.
So my question remains Cato, have you ever once done it or are you always just in agreement?

496 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:35:00am

re: #481 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I think Charles meant that pmedia had just registered over yonder today.

Oops! I should have known, though it's not unlikely that I would have missed an Open Registration here at LGF.

s.b. = sheepish (for the moment)

497 rwmofo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:35:05am

re: #439 Charles

Man, someone needs to just go get some ice cream - or something.

498 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:35:14am

re: #482 Pianobuff

So...you do cast aspersions at people which was the original point. Let's at least be consistent.

I'm pretty sure she may even have an aspergillum.

I find it helpful when aspersing more than a few people at once.

499 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:35:24am

re: #478 ladycatnip

ACORN and SEIU thugs have NO business standing around in their red shirts with arms crossed at these TH meetings as though they're de facto security guards; they have no business blocking sidewalk access to the meetings or shutting down conversations on public sidewalks.

If these union thugs want to participate in the debate, take off the red shirts and come as a citizen. The left is accusing the right of sending in organized shills on the down-low, yet the left does it openly with their red shirts.

I have also seen videos where questions were asked in a polite manner only to receive scorn from the elected official. This started with democrats being angry with their elected officials in NY.

The answer to this is for Obama to call off his dogs, reign in his own people, lose the arrogant rhetoric and let the American people know he sincerely wants to hear from us. True to form, however, he's already made it known he expects us to shut up.

And the White House has already sent out the message to punch back twice as hard. (but ignore the militant rhetoric, it's only meant figuratively... not literally).

500 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:35:52am

re: #492 Shiplord Kirel

For the love of God...

As Barry Goldwater ruefully told Bob Dole in 1996, ""We're the new liberals of the Republican party. Can you imagine that?"
The attacks to which Goldwater was responding came largely from the same crowd of kooks who attack Charles's anti-left credentials now.

Goldwater would be the standard by which all other RINOs were measured were he alive today.

Never mind he gave us Reagan.

501 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:36:18am

re: #464 filetandrelease

Don't cut yourself shaving.

Ok, I got it Iceweasel & Cato are smart & the rest of us are just inbred
& doofus.

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:36:37am

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Agreeing with whatever the person being called says is obviously in the script.

One of my pet peeves is books about teaching or classroom management where they give you 'scripts'. The kid in the script always responds appropriately, and never calls Mrs. Goodteacher a bitch, or starts a long rambling discourse on how they don't like french fries.

I suspect politicians run into similar problems all the time.

503 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:36:43am

re: #495 opnion

I would also ask Cato , while he is challenging people for not downding Charles, has he himslf ever done it?
Seems like it might be a breach of etiquete to dis the host , but Cato sees it as a lack of guts.
So my question remains Cato, have you ever once done it or are you always just in agreement?

My take as well.

504 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:36:58am

re: #501 opnion

Ok, I got it Iceweasel & Cato are smart & the rest of us are just inbred
& doofus.

That would be "doofi".

505 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:37:51am

If Barry Goldwater conservatism is now RINO!, then count me in as a RINO!

506 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:38:10am

re: #499 Pianobuff

And the White House has already sent out the message to punch back twice as hard. (but ignore the militant rhetoric, it's only meant figuratively... not literally).

Someone will probably point out that it wasn't Obama who made that comment (it was merely his Deputy Chief of Staff Jim Messina ).

507 filetandrelease  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:38:21am

re: #475 katemaclaren
Thanks, but instead I am just going to have a little tea party with my little porcelain tea cups and get bitch slapped into the middle of the next room by Washington elites.

508 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:38:25am

Well, bye everyone. I have to go to a Town Hall meeting...just kidding. Take care, keep the peace and for goodness sake, obey gravity--it's the law.

509 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:38:41am

re: #496 SlartyBartfast

Oops! I should have known, though it's not unlikely that I would have missed an Open Registration here at LGF.

s.b. = sheepish (for the moment)

That's okay.
You can be sheepish as you hang around. Don't take it on the lamb.

510 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:38:41am

re: #498 Cato the Elder

I'm pretty sure she may even have an aspergillum.

I find it helpful when aspersing more than a few people at once.

Didn't know Ice had holy orders.

511 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:38:45am

re: #492 Shiplord Kirel

For the love of God...

As Barry Goldwater ruefully told Bob Dole in 1996, ""We're the new liberals of the Republican party. Can you imagine that?"
The attacks to which Goldwater was responding came largely from the same crowd of kooks who attack Charles's anti-left credentials now.

That would be the Birchers, Neo-Confederates, and Palecon anti-semite squads.

512 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:38:47am

re: #386 horatiolust

Do your own damned research, jerk. I read about every one of those topics on this very blog.

513 d.w.  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:38:50am

re: #35 lawhawk
When it's your first time ever at a townhall meeting or a protest, and you are angry and shocked about what you've read in the proposed legislation, it's not surprising that booing, shouting and yelling are the response to the insulting and stupid comments made by a politician.

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:39:10am

re: #309 harpsicon


The question is, as I asked, "What is a classical liberal or conservative supposed to do in the face of these tactics?" that the Left has employed SUCCESSFULLY for so many years.

Well, I'm involved with a group that addresses a particular leftist cause, and we protest peacefully, educate, and outreach.

Some people might also say that having a Republican president for eight years might have been a reasonable form of peaceful protest.

515 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:39:37am

re: #504 Cato the Elder

That would be "doofi".

See you are smart! The term doesn't exist in the dictionary, but that is their fault.

516 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:39:46am

re: #498 Cato the Elder

I'm pretty sure she may even have an aspergillum.

I find it helpful when aspersing more than a few people at once.

re: #498 Cato the Elder

I'm pretty sure she may even have an aspergillum.

I find it helpful when aspersing more than a few people at once.

I'm an Orwell fan, so I just like to keep the aspidistra flying no matter what. ;)

517 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:39:49am

re: #439 Charles

Now posted at Free Republic: Charles Johnson of LGF supports violence against American citizens.

Well, that's a pretty damned unfair analysis.

518 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:39:52am

re: #513 d.w.
See my comment about letting someone push your buttons above.

519 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:39:53am

re: #504 Cato the Elder

That would be "doofi".

hahaha!

520 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:40:26am

re: #500 Sharmuta

Goldwater would be the standard by which all other RINOs were measured were he alive today.

Never mind he gave us Reagan.

He would be appalled at many things the Republicans have being doing lately. That is for sure. And, he is probably spinning in his grave not to far from where I am sitting right now over the direction the current President is taking the USA.

521 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:40:29am

Trying to undermine the process is not constrained.

522 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:40:49am

re: #509 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah, I felt baaa-d there for a moment but ewe made me feel better...thanks.

523 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:40:49am

Ask yourself a real question: is "Mob" strategy something Karl Rove would deploy in this situation? Would Ronald Reagan condone this behavior?

524 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:40:50am

re: #515 opnion

See you are smart! The term doesn't exist in the dictionary, but that is their fault.

it should tho

525 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:41:03am

re: #499 Pianobuff

And the White House has already sent out the message to punch back twice as hard. (but ignore the militant rhetoric, it's only meant figuratively... not literally).

And the progressives are doing a very good job of tagging the conservatives as the troublemakers. But, if you noticed, by a lot of the responses here, it's not working.

And, I have seen the same sort of push-back from conservatives on other sites and other places.

The "mob" tactics so loved by the progressives are backfiring across the country, and their modus operandi has become very acutely pinpointed this time and they are not getting away with it.

The country is angry with this administration, and they are even starting to get some blowback from their own side.

Keep shouting, August just started.

526 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:41:11am

re: #309 harpsicon

but what has gone on in the universities is unspeakable, and in the end it is backed by force. As is Chicago politics, if I understand correctly.

Sorry, not meaning to keep picking on this one post, but what do you mean by what goes on in universities being 'backed by force'? If you mean assault, I would say, the logical and reasonable answer, once you're outta there, is to press charges.

527 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:41:22am

re: #520 Desert Dog

He would be appalled at many things the Republicans have being doing lately. That is for sure. And, he is probably spinning in his grave not to far from where I am sitting right now over the direction the current President is taking the USA.

We should see if there isn't a way to harvest the energy of his spins.

528 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:41:35am

re: #490 Charles

Yea. It's probably Rick Martinez, aka Trajan, aka Rodan, etc. The slimy little creep specializes in this kind of thing.

I'm tired of taking Rodan's shit...Not once in my life have I attacked him..
Yet I am a target for LFG2...It's really starting to piss me off..Rodan..You don't want me pissed off..Trust me on this...

529 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:41:50am

re: #515 opnion

See you are smart! The term doesn't exist in the dictionary, but that is their fault.

I want to hide my face to cover my blush at your shame here. I don't know what is worse-- that you went looking for 'doofi' in the dictionary, or that you didn't recognise a joke about plural nouns from classical roots.

530 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:41:56am

re: #523 Thanos

Ask yourself a real question: is "Mob" strategy something Karl Rove would deploy in this situation? Would Ronald Reagan condone this behavior?

Never ever.

531 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:41:59am

re: #522 SlartyBartfast

Okay, I can't take it. Stop RAM-ming this down our throats. LOL. I can't resist a good or baaahd pun.

532 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:42:17am

re: #516 iceweasel

I'm an Orwell fan, so I just like to keep the aspidistra flying no matter what. ;)

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]

533 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:42:25am

re: #504 Cato the Elder

That would be "doofi".

A friend of mine suggests that the world-renowned "Flying Elvises" should be the "Flying Elvi."

534 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:42:46am

Wifi is a bunch of wifus.

535 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:42:46am

re: #524 albusteve

it should tho

That's why I said that it is their fault.

536 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:43:01am

re: #523 Thanos

Ask yourself a real question: is "Mob" strategy something Karl Rove would deploy in this situation? Would Ronald Reagan condone this behavior?

They would both want as much sunshine on this plan as possible. But, neither of them would want the pitch fork and torch method deployed, I would guess.

537 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:43:04am

re: #522 SlartyBartfast

Yeah, I felt baaa-d there for a moment but ewe made me feel better...thanks.

Wool you look at that reply!
Shear delight!

538 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:43:33am

re: #528 HoosierHoops

I'm tired of taking Rodan's shit...Not once in my life have I attacked him..
Yet I am a target for LFG2...It's really starting to piss me off..Rodan..You don't want me pissed off..Trust me on this...

Just pity Rodan and move on.

539 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:44:09am

re: #495 opnion

I would also ask Cato , while he is challenging people for not downding Charles, has he himslf ever done it?
Seems like it might be a breach of etiquete to dis the host , but Cato sees it as a lack of guts.
So my question remains Cato, have you ever once done it or are you always just in agreement?

I honestly can't remember. But then, Charles usually comes down on the side of rationality, sanity and calm, not brash anality, Hannity, and smarm. When I feel he's as wrong about something as people here do about this, I'll use the button. It's there for a purpose.

540 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:44:31am

re: #528 HoosierHoops

I'm tired of taking Rodan's shit...Not once in my life have I attacked him..
Yet I am a target for LFG2...It's really starting to piss me off..Rodan..You don't want me pissed off..Trust me on this...

Serious question.. Why do you even bother going there?

541 apachegunner  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:44:37am

gawd, sounds like a den of very angry lizards today. I myself have gone beyond all this shit. fuck em, i got mine and it will take them too long to get any of it away from me. i'm done with this shit and it isn't going to bother me any longer. america has voted for exactly what it got, hope they realize just what it is they have done.

542 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:44:48am

re: #525 Walter L. Newton

How do you know it's not working? Are you a blue dog democrat mind reader? They are the sole reason the Health care bill isn't already passed and signed. Do you think yelling at blue dogs is going to shore up their opposition or defray it? I think it's going to flip them to Pelosi. It's going to set off a reaction that we aren't going to like.

543 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:44:53am

Is it just me to do alot of the Republicans seem like nerds? I'm thinking of Karl Rove trying to dance with the Hip Hop artists and (spit) Huckabee.

It's like they are feeding jokes to the opposition.

544 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:45:26am

re: #540 wahabicorridor

Serious question.. Why do you even bother going there?

They're lucky to suck in a 100 comments a day. Why bother?

545 Athens Runaway  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:45:47am

re: #543 ggt

Is it just me to do alot of the Republicans seem like nerds? I'm thinking of Karl Rove trying to dance with the Hip Hop artists and (spit) Huckabee.

It's like they are feeding jokes to the opposition.

Style over substance, I see.

546 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:46:12am

re: #542 Thanos

How do you know it's not working? Are you a blue dog democrat mind reader? They are the sole reason the Health care bill isn't already passed and signed. Do you think yelling at blue dogs is going to shore up their opposition or defray it? I think it's going to flip them to Pelosi. It's going to set off a reaction that we aren't going to like.

Well see.

547 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:46:13am

re: #540 wahabicorridor

Serious question.. Why do you even bother going there?

Some people, like Defenseman, feel LGF is worth defending from these smear artists.

548 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:46:14am

re: #359 opnion

That is my point, not knowing sexually charged terms does not equate to stupidity.
Marginalizing the intellect of an opponent has been a Liberal tactic for as long as I can remember

Sneering at the elite education of the opponent has been a Conservative tactic for as long as I can remember. Neither of these tactics should be taken as an excuse not to switch to loose tea.

549 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:46:16am

re: #528 HoosierHoops

I'm tired of taking Rodan's shit...Not once in my life have I attacked him..
Yet I am a target for LFG2...It's really starting to piss me off..Rodan..You don't want me pissed off..Trust me on this...

Uh oh.
Server severe problems in 5 ... 4 ... 3 ... ... ... ?

550 LC LaWedgie  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:46:46am
This is the moment our movement was built for

I don't see a lot of anything other than "love it or leave it" in that challenge.

551 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:46:52am

re: #107 Silvergirl

Oh, before I forget to say it--thankyou for your thoughtful comment, Silvergirl.

552 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:47:07am

re: #545 Athens Runaway

Style over substance, I see.

something like that.

553 ladycatnip  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:47:14am

#485 katemaclaren

This reminds me of the Black Panthers standing guard at the election in November--with nightsticks--charges were DROPPED --even though they pleaded guilty--thanks to the #3 in the Holder-sphere.

The media and the left would like that little scene dropped from history. That was the beginning of Chicago politics coming to the national scene.

554 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:47:50am

re: #542 Thanos

How do you know it's not working? Are you a blue dog democrat mind reader? They are the sole reason the Health care bill isn't already passed and signed. Do you think yelling at blue dogs is going to shore up their opposition or defray it? I think it's going to flip them to Pelosi. It's going to set off a reaction that we aren't going to like.

I really believe you got that wrong. The blue dogs need answer to their constituents in about 15 months.

555 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:47:51am

re: #531 katemaclaren

Okay, I can't take it. Stop RAM-ming this down our throats. LOL. I can't resist a good or baaahd pun.

Got your goat, did we?

556 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:47:58am

re: #547 Sharmuta

Some people, like Defenseman, feel LGF is worth defending from these smear artists.

I am lost now...there is a blog about a blogger who used to blog here? I need a diagram to understand all of this...

557 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:48:20am

re: #545 Athens Runaway

Is it just me or do the Democrats seem like a bunch of loons? I'm thinking of Pelosi, Kerry, Reid, Kennedy, Waxman trying to ram crap down our throats we don't need or want.

558 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:48:20am

re: #546 Walter L. Newton

Well see.

Yes we will since there's now momentum behind the mob. It's not going to stop, and you can bet that Pelosi will capitalize on every moment of it.

559 Athens Runaway  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:48:34am

re: #552 ggt

something like that.

I was referring to your outlook, worrying about people's dancing ability and how hip they are. As opposed to, you know, what their politics are.

560 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:48:42am

re: #550 LC LaWedgie

I don't see a lot of anything other than "love it or leave it" in that challenge.

"Our Movement"...bowel movement?

561 rwmofo  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:48:44am

Taliban pair next in line to promote kill each other during "discussion" to see who takes over.

Heh.

Hopefully the remaining guys continue with this process.

562 filetandrelease  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:48:46am

re: #542 Thanos

How do you know it's not working? Are you a blue dog democrat mind reader? They are the sole reason the Health care bill isn't already passed and signed. Do you think yelling at blue dogs is going to shore up their opposition or defray it? I think it's going to flip them to Pelosi. It's going to set off a reaction that we aren't going to like.

Ahhh, the big question. Of course as most here (I think) I hope you assessment is wrong. I call opposites.

563 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:49:08am

re: #528 HoosierHoops

I'm tired of taking Rodan's shit...Not once in my life have I attacked him..
Yet I am a target for LFG2...It's really starting to piss me off..Rodan..You don't want me pissed off..Trust me on this...

Hey Hoops -

My jackass ex-BIL has a blog in which he posts about my sister. And his daughter, whom he claims to luuuv, but he can't even remember her actual birth date.

I know it's hard when someone is targeting you, but just remember that what some one else says about you has nothing to do with who you are.

In fact, my late friend Moses said it best: "What other people think of me is none of my damn business!"

Don't give 'em the satisfaction.

564 katemaclaren  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:49:40am

re: #556 Desert Dog

yeah--Flock you (oooh, I'm being bad, now!! Sorry!!!) sssmmmaaack--that's a kiss goodbye with affection and good will!

565 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:49:53am

re: #559 Athens Runaway

I was referring to your outlook, worrying about people's dancing ability and how hip they are. As opposed to, you know, what their politics are.

In theory, but that doesn't seem to be how people vote. It's all about "appearance". I would have thought the political movers learned that after the first televised debate between Kennedy and Nixon.

566 Pullus Iulius  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:50:04am

re: #504 Cato the Elder

That would be "doofi".

Doofus is fourth declension, not second. So it would be:
Nominative: doofus (s) doofus (pl)
Genitive: doofus (s) doofuum (pl)
Dative: doofui, doofu (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Accusative: doofum (s) doofus (pl)
Ablative: doofu (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Locative: doofi (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Vocative: doofus (s) doofus (pl)
A common mistake, but being one, I would know.

567 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:50:04am

re: #555 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Got your goat, did we?

I've discovered pBMb's occupation!

568 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:50:07am

re: #558 Thanos

Yes we will since there's now momentum behind the mob. It's not going to stop, and you can bet that Pelosi will capitalize on every moment of it.

I think right now, Nancy is trying to figure out how to not get steamrolled by these mobs.

569 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:50:27am

re: #540 wahabicorridor

Serious question.. Why do you even bother going there?

I get links every so often with him trashing me..
I swear to God...If what he said about me was the truth..I'd shut the Hell up.
It's not fair..I won't back the hell down...
And I will never bring that trailer trash here...But Rodan bit off more than he can chew with me...

570 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:50:58am

re: #553 ladycatnip

#485 katemaclaren


The media and the left would like that little scene dropped from history. That was the beginning of Chicago politics coming to the national scene.

But...But...But... They dropped the charges.
*after the thugs plead guilty.

571 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:51:17am

re: #566 Pullus Iulius

Doofus is fourth declension, not second. So it would be:
Nominative: doofus (s) doofus (pl)
Genitive: doofus (s) doofuum (pl)
Dative: doofui, doofu (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Accusative: doofum (s) doofus (pl)
Ablative: doofu (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Locative: doofi (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Vocative: doofus (s) doofus (pl)
A common mistake, but being one, I would know.

2nd declension? gender: masculine???

LOL

572 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:51:21am

re: #569 HoosierHoops

I get links every so often with him trashing me..
I swear to God...If what he said about me was the truth..I'd shut the Hell up.
It's not fair..I won't back the hell down...
And I will never bring that trailer trash here...But Rodan bit off more than he can chew with me...

{hoops}

573 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:51:31am

re: #558 Thanos

Yes we will since there's now momentum behind the mob. It's not going to stop, and you can bet that Pelosi will capitalize on every moment of it.

Teheran. Action, reaction, future progress.

574 Rev. Jim Sutter  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:51:50am

Some of the protesters are now planning armed violence at the town hall meetings. See http://www.chasingevil.org/2009/08/town-hall-protestors-threaten-armed.html

575 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:51:51am

re: #566 Pullus Iulius

Doofus is fourth declension, not second. So it would be:
Nominative: doofus (s) doofus (pl)
Genitive: doofus (s) doofuum (pl)
Dative: doofui, doofu (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Accusative: doofum (s) doofus (pl)
Ablative: doofu (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Locative: doofi (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Vocative: doofus (s) doofus (pl)
A common mistake, but being one, I would know.

(((Publius)))

576 Athens Runaway  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:52:28am

re: #565 ggt

In theory, but that doesn't seem to be how people vote. It's all about "appearance". I would have thought the political movers learned that after the first televised debate between Kennedy and Nixon.

Ah. I submit John Edwards and John Kerry as counterexamples of your hypothesis.

577 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:52:34am

re: #561 rwmofo

Taliban pair next in line to promote kill each other during "discussion" to see who takes over.

Heh.

Hopefully the remaining guys continue with this process.

Thanks for posting that!
Sounds almost too good to be true.
I'm gonna wait and see if Roggio picks up on it.

578 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:52:38am

re: #554 unrealizedviewpoint

I really believe you got that wrong. The blue dogs need answer to their constituents in about 15 months.

Right now we are only projected to net up four seats, I don't think this is going to change that equation. It will keep the independents and moderate R's who voted them in voting for them in 2010.

579 Racer X  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:52:40am

You didn't really think citizens were going to sit back and do nothing as the most leftist president in history fundamentally changed America did you?

580 LC LaWedgie  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:53:13am

re: #560 Desert Dog

more like bow to the movement.

581 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:53:21am

re: #568 Desert Dog

I think right now, Nancy is trying to figure out how to not get steamrolled by these mobs.

the donks are in shock...whatever you call them, the peasants are revolting and it's having a profound effect...whatever happens to the GOP in the long term is just speculation...where the rubber hits the road, is where it counts...one step at a time

582 The Left  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:53:31am

re: #554 unrealizedviewpoint

I really believe you got that wrong. The blue dogs need answer to their constituents in about 15 months.

Less time. Like now, at the townhalls. And all of this drama there and about health care reform is really about the midterm elections in 2010.

583 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:53:38am

re: #574 revjimsutter

Some of the protesters are now planning armed violence at the town hall meetings. See http://www.chasingevil.org/2009/08/town-hall-prote stors-threaten-armed.html

I've been waiting for that.

Ann, Glenn, Lou, Alex, Mark, Rush - great job. Your seed is sprouting.

584 Jimash  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:53:40am

Lets take one example.
Your representative shows up. HE has already betrayed the trust of his cpnstituents by cravenly switching parties during his term, thus giving up seniority and the power he formerly had for his people.
Then he tells you he has to pass this thing fast, he doesn't have time to read it. He will assign teams to read it, piecemeal.
Then the cabinet member chimes in that he can't even read it because the bill that he is in such a hurry to pass is not even written yet.
They deserve to be shouted down.
You cannot convince me that gray-haired retirees and honest looking folk represent what is being called "Right wing Extremism"

585 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:53:55am
The politics of hope and change have been replaced by the politics of fear and intimidation.

The problem for the White House is, it won't work.

No amount of partisan name-calling is going to make the President's health care plan any more popular. And no matter how many times the White House calls it "astro-turfing," the contentious town halls members of Congress are having back in their districts are authentic expressions of grassroots frustration and concern.

So if your member of Congress is conscientious enough - or brave enough - to schedule a town hall meeting this August break, make sure you attend it.

Be pleasant. Be positive. Stick to the facts. But be firm and un-intimidated.

And if your member of Congress is too frightened to face the public back home, make sure you call and let him or her know you expect more.

Remember: Stifling dissent and likening those who disagree with you to Nazis are not the hallmarks of a confident agenda for change; they are the tactics of desperate and losing campaign. Just ask the Federalists.

And remember this as well:

You have an absolute right to petition your government. Exercise it.

586 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:53:58am

re: #543 ggt

Is it just me to do alot of the Republicans seem like nerds? I'm thinking of Karl Rove trying to dance with the Hip Hop artists and (spit) Huckabee.

It's like they are feeding jokes to the opposition.

With which one would you rather have a beer?

587 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:53:58am

re: #576 Athens Runaway

Ah. I submit John Edwards and John Kerry as counterexamples of your hypothesis.

Well, they garnered a lot more votes than Huckabee. Somehow, they are working the system.

588 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:54:03am

re: #579 Racer X

You didn't really think citizens were going to sit back and do nothing as the most leftist president in history fundamentally changed America did you?

They don't have to, but excuse me for not jumping on board the rage-mobile.

589 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:54:03am

re: #569 HoosierHoops

{Hoops} manly hug

590 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:54:14am

re: #579 Racer X

I hoped citizens would protest and I am glad to see it. However, I think Obama and his Chicago thugs didn't expect any opposition.

591 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:54:18am

re: #388 iceweasel

Iceweasel, the majority of liberals that I know really, truly do believe that anyone less liberal than they must be stupid, or at least badly educated. The East and West Coast liberals, in particular, think very meanly of the intellect of the average American.

Many of them also take as an article of faith the (false) claim that occasionally is put out, that liberals as a group have higher IQs and higher education levels than conservatives as a group.

As a result, you may recall, they were totally prepared to accept and promote the idea that GW Bush (M.B.A., Harvard) simply had to be stupid in comparison to Al Gore (dropout) or John Kerry (terrified that his grades might be released).

592 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:54:20am

re: #529 iceweasel

I want to hide my face to cover my blush at your shame here. I don't know what is worse-- that you went looking for 'doofi' in the dictionary, or that you didn't recognise a joke about plural nouns from classical roots.

I actually did not look for it in the dictionary, so you don't have to hide or blush.
I do hope though that you truly enjoy your superior intellect & that stupid people that do not know alll the cutting edge terms that you do, do not clash with your decor.

593 jvic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:55:02am

re: #566 Pullus Iulius

Doofus is fourth declension, not second. So it would be:
Nominative: doofus (s) doofus (pl)
Genitive: doofus (s) doofuum (pl)
Dative: doofui, doofu (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Accusative: doofum (s) doofus (pl)
Ablative: doofu (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Locative: doofi (s) doofibus, (doofubus) (pl)
Vocative: doofus (s) doofus (pl)
A common mistake, but being one, I would know.

Where does that leave the doofae?

594 Racer X  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:55:10am

re: #569 HoosierHoops

Hoops,

Let it go man. He is just another asshole on the interwebs. He does not know you well enough to piss you off. He knows nothing about you. Let it bounce right off.

595 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:55:34am

re: #584 Jimash

[...] You cannot convince me that gray-haired retirees and honest looking folk represent what is being called "Right wing Extremism"

The brownshirts generally had well-polished boots and nicely pressed clothing. Made them so much more appealing when they tore up a meeting.

596 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:55:41am

re: #539 Cato the Elder

I honestly can't remember. But then, Charles usually comes down on the side of rationality, sanity and calm, not brash anality, Hannity, and smarm. When I feel he's as wrong about something as people here do about this, I'll use the button. It's there for a purpose.

But you have never done it, have you?

597 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:55:47am

re: #586 MandyManners

With which one would you rather have a beer?


[Video]

It's not with whom I'd rather have a drink, but with whom the general electorate would rather drink.

Basically, who is branding the product that will sell to the masses. Regardless of quality.

598 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:56:11am

re: #562 filetandrelease

Ahhh, the big question. Of course as most here (I think) I hope you assessment is wrong. I call opposites.

I don't mind being wrong & will admit if I am if that occurs. I am relying on past history of blue dog dems for my assessment. When given reasons, facts, and methods that matter in their region to oppose they do -- when it becomes highly partisan as the mob makes it then they get their dander up and get back in lockstep with party.

599 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:56:29am

re: #593 jvic

Where does that leave the doofae?

There are no doofae.

LOL

600 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:57:02am

re: #595 Cato the Elder

The brownshirts generally had well-polished boots and nicely pressed clothing. Made them so much more appealing when they tore up a meeting.

exactly.

601 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:57:06am

re: #583 Cato the Elder

I've been waiting for that.

Ann, Glenn, Lou, Alex, Mark, Rush - great job. Your seed is sprouting.

Mark? Not getting that reference...

602 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:57:25am

re: #595 Cato the Elder

OMG! How dare you compare the people at those meetings to brownshirts. I hope you are never in a position to have a serious medical problem or be dependent on Medicare in your old age.

603 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:57:58am

re: #601 wahabicorridor

Mark? Not getting that reference...

Levin.

604 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:58:03am

bbl

605 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:58:27am

re: #589 pre-Boomer Marine brat

{Hoops} manly hug

What up Brat? I really miss the i kan cheesebuger links...You always brought me a smile at the end of a work day..You are good people...
I miss DustyVet..Every since his sis died..Silence...
Depressing

606 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:58:28am

re: #592 opnion

I actually did not look for it in the dictionary, so you don't have to hide or blush.
I do hope though that you truly enjoy your superior intellect & that stupid people that do not know alll the cutting edge terms that you do, do not clash with your decor.

there is the entertainment factor...don't discount that

607 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:58:42am

See ya & our two Mensa members (You know who you are)

608 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:59:33am

re: #602 satan sidekick

OMG! How dare you compare the people at those meetings to brownshirts. I hope you are never in a position to have a serious medical problem or be dependent on Medicare in your old age.

One: I have several serious medical problems. My insurance is one of them.

Two: Medicare is a government program. You therefore must be against it.

609 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:00:10am

re: #607 opnion

See ya & our two Mensa members (You know who you are)

I would never stoop to hanging around with those dolts. ;^)

610 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:00:16am

re: #606 albusteve

there is the entertainment factor...don't discount that

Count on it. When their arguement is denigrating others intellects , There may be some over compensation

611 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:00:17am

re: #523 Thanos

Ask yourself a real question: is "Mob" strategy something Karl Rove would deploy in this situation? Would Ronald Reagan condone this behavior?

Reagan wouldn't like it. One of his greatest strengths was encouraging Americans to feel powerful rather than oppressed.

612 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:00:54am

Obama favors getting rid of secret ballots when employees vote on whether they want union representation.

Under current law, union organizers and management both have the opportunity to present the pros and cons of forming a union. A secret employee vote is then held. Under Mr. Obama's proposal, unions would be the sole provider of information to the employee, and the worker's decision whether to organize would no longer be private.

That is a clear show of support for pro-union mob mentality.

613 Jimash  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:01:02am

re: #595 Cato the Elder

Brown Shirts ?
You are comparing the down-shouters at these meetings with Brown Shirts ?
I think that is a gross exaggeration.
Especially when we have the examples of ACORN and SEIU, already inhabiting that rhetorical space.

614 Windhorse  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:01:06am

re: #566 Pullus Iulius

...or "eldooferino" if your not into the whole brevity thing...

/doof off

615 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:01:19am

re: #594 Racer X

Hoops,

Let it go man. He is just another asshole on the interwebs. He does not know you well enough to piss you off. He knows nothing about you. Let it bounce right off.

How does Charles do it? I can't help it when called out...
Shut the hell up hoopster! Ok

616 filetandrelease  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:01:21am

re: #598 Thanos
I respect your opinion as it is thought out. My "hope" is that you are wrong. The genie is out of the bottle, (the mob) it will have an effect one way or the other. So again, I call opposites. (The balance of the universe may well be at stake.)

617 outsidephilly  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:01:24am

re: #584 Jimash

Lets take one example.
Your representative shows up. HE has already betrayed the trust of his cpnstituents by cravenly switching parties during his term, thus giving up seniority and the power he formerly had for his people.
Then he tells you he has to pass this thing fast, he doesn't have time to read it. He will assign teams to read it, piecemeal.
Then the cabinet member chimes in that he can't even read it because the bill that he is in such a hurry to pass is not even written yet.
They deserve to be shouted down.
You cannot convince me that gray-haired retirees and honest looking folk represent what is being called "Right wing Extremism"

..., a representative switching parties during his term, not in my part of the US of A
///

618 opnion  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:01:37am

re: #609 Cato the Elder

I would never stoop to hanging around with those dolts. ;^)

Ya know what, that was a great comeback. Have a nice day & rest of the weekend Cato:)

619 albusteve  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:01:46am

re: #609 Cato the Elder

I would never stoop to hanging around with those dolts. ;^)

heh...
2pts

620 GGMac  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:01:56am

re: #60 Sharmuta

I think it's a lack of leadership on the part of the GOP. They were not in control of the tea parties, they're not in control of these mobs, they're not in control of any message(!), and they're not in control of their base(!!). You know it's bad when republicans don't want to do town halls because of nirthers.

There's a real breakdown of civics in this country, and this is the harvest. People don't know how to appropriately deal with these matters- even in a new information age where your congressperson is a website away. Politics is the art of compromise, and people on all sides would do well to remember the wisdom in flies and honey.

621 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:02:04am

re: #434 lurking faith

It seems to me that one of the issues people are not clear on is RATIONING.

I've heard many people (including a physician friend) say that the insurance companies "ration" care and have been for some time.

What they MEAN is that the insurance companies DON'T PAY for certain care. But that is not to say that the patient cannot get the care and pay for it on his own.

As I understand it (please correct me if I am misinformed), under Medicare, patients can ONLY get the treatment that Medicare authorizes. Doctors are not allowed by law to do any other treatment, and patients are not allowed by law to pay for any other treatment. THAT IS RATIONING.

Inevitably, the "public option" will be like Medicare. And as money gets shorter and shorter -- as it unquestionably will --- everyone will be subject to more and more ACTUAL rationing, when you cannot get some care at any price.

622 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:02:28am

re: #506 Mich-again

Someone will probably point out that it wasn't Obama who made that comment (it was merely his Deputy Chief of Staff Jim Messina ).

Obama came right out and mocked it as stupid.

623 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:02:44am

Have a great day all!

624 jvic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:03:57am

re: #599 ggt

There are no doofae.

LOL

I don't know your gender, sir or madam...but I have a suspicion. ;-)

625 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:04:32am

re: #612 Mich-again

Obama favors getting rid of secret ballots when employees vote on whether they want union representation.

That is a clear show of support for pro-union mob mentality.

Of course he does. The progressives were the FIRST to tag the dissenters of the health care proposals as "a mob." days before there was ANY mob like activity.

And the progressives thinks we don't see what they are trying to do, which is shut us up completely, as Obama so clearly mentioned in Virginia the other day...

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

If Obama would just shut up, they may be able to get away with all these tactics, but he can't, so, they keep tipping their hand.

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

626 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:05:13am

re: #608 Cato the Elder

What is your problem with your insurance company?

627 Wendya  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:06:11am

re: #421 Cato the Elder

I see nothing wrong with calling stupid stupid. And I'm seeing a lot of it here today.

Unless that stupid is coming out of the mouth of your legislator at a town hall meeting?

628 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:06:30am

re: #592 opnion

lol
I think maybe he had his humor indicator turned down too low.

629 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:07:50am

re: #627 Wendya

I would take a look in the mirro if I were you.

630 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:09:58am

re: #616 filetandrelease

I respect your opinion as it is thought out. My "hope" is that you are wrong. The genie is out of the bottle, (the mob) it will have an effect one way or the other. So again, I call opposites. (The balance of the universe may well be at stake.)

Ok just so we are clear on opposites: Do you mean that the blue dogs won't flip on return from recess, or do you mean that they will be defeated in elections?

631 Wendya  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:11:18am

re: #629 satan sidekick

I would take a look in the mirro if I were you.

Drinking while posting?

632 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:11:30am

re: #605 HoosierHoops

What up Brat? I really miss the i kan cheesebuger links...You always brought me a smile at the end of a work day..You are good people...
I miss DustyVet..Every since his sis died..Silence...
Depressing


For the Hoopster.

633 committed  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:12:54am

I have just checked in and don't have time to read all the comments that have already been made. I will say this. I believe the word "mob" was used by the Obama supporters when people just showed up in large numbers. They were derided for showing up in Brooks Brothers suits, etc. and accused of being representatives of the insurance or health care professions.

But they showed up because like myself they couldn't get their representatives in Congress to respond to an email or telephone call with anything but a "prepared" message of why they supported the health care plan. Pelosi says the people aren't smart enough to know what is good for them.

When supporters of the bill organized and attended the events to make fun of and shout down these people who showed up, things got louder and more out of hand.

People are just frustrated as hell that they are treated like second class citizens and want to do something to show their displeasure. Its a knee jerk reaction.

634 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:13:29am

re: #631 Wendya

What is that supposed to mean? I made a typo or perhaps what I typed offended you?

FYI - I don't drink in the middle of the day

635 lurking faith  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:14:36am

re: #621 nonic

I'm afraid that I do not know enough about Medicare to answer that part of your comment. I sincerely hope that you are misinformed, but I don't actually know.

However, I do agree with you that many people do not AT ALL understand the difference between denial of coverage and true rationing. They may yet learn, in the most unpleasant way...

bbl

636 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:18:34am

re: #635 lurking faith

I've been trying to find out for sure, but haven't so far. But I *DO* think that is the case -- Medicare DICTATES what treatment you can have. Which I find very scary. :-(

637 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:18:55am

re: #588 Sharmuta

They don't have to, but excuse me for not jumping on board the rage-mobile.

The melting pot has boiled over.

638 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:22:23am

re: #635 lurking faith

Regarding "denial of coverage" versus "rationing," I use the example of any cosmetic surgery. Just because your insurance company will not pay for a nose job or breast implants does not mean you cannot have that surgery. But you have to pay for it yourself. That is not rationing. Rationing is when you are not allowed to have some treatment, anywhere at any price -- as is now the case in Britain.

639 clgood  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:23:03am

I'm sorry, Charles, but that NYT article is pure bunkum. That "smoking gun" memo is from a backwater blog that has little reach. Surely you can find better sources than the Times.

I don't advocate acting like a mob, but clearly the "mob" label that Barry and his thugs have been throwing around is bogus, so adopting it co-opts it. Much the same thing happened to terms like "Yankee" and "Mormon" - they start as insults and then get adopted and defused by the putative victims. Just check out the #iamthemob hashtag on Twitter.

I am, tongue planted firmly in cheek, the mob.

For real mob behavior, check this out.

640 walter cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:28:16am

I do not condone, nor encourage the activities of those who shout down speakers, be they of the right or left. But, I am somewhat empathetic. When a constituent e-mails or writes his Congressman, and gets a canned response that very often is totally off the topic, the constituent begins to realize that he/she is not being listened to. This leads to frustration.
When the same constituent shows up at a town hall meeting and listens to blather from a Representative or Senator who either doesn't know what he is talking about or is lying, and usually with a liberal dose of condescension, the frustration turns to anger.
Better that the anger be turned to pointed questions, which will be evaded. But, human nature is human nature. The constituents have seen the press coverage given to those who erupt in anger. In the last 4 to 6 years, that coverage has been unbelievably sympathetic to the leftists who erupted. If this type of behavior is unacceptable, which I believe it is, the MSM has picked a convenient time to discover its unacceptability.

641 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:30:15am

re: #633 committed

I have just checked in and don't have time to read all the comments that have already been made. I will say this. I believe the word "mob" was used by the Obama supporters when people just showed up in large numbers. They were derided for showing up in Brooks Brothers suits, etc. and accused of being representatives of the insurance or health care professions.

But they showed up because like myself they couldn't get their representatives in Congress to respond to an email or telephone call with anything but a "prepared" message of why they supported the health care plan. Pelosi says the people aren't smart enough to know what is good for them.

When supporters of the bill organized and attended the events to make fun of and shout down these people who showed up, things got louder and more out of hand.

People are just frustrated as hell that they are treated like second class citizens and want to do something to show their displeasure. Its a knee jerk reaction.

I hear you, but by acting out I personally think that Republican's are falling like a ton of bricks for Nancy's trap.

642 idioma  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:30:50am

Astroturf!

643 GGMac  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:35:11am

re: #495 opnion

I would also ask Cato , while he is challenging people for not downding Charles, has he himslf ever done it?
Seems like it might be a breach of etiquete to dis the host , but Cato sees it as a lack of guts.
So my question remains Cato, have you ever once done it or are you always just in agreement?

Just to clarify: to me the term "dis" means to tear down, or ridicule, or something along those lines, and yes it would be a breach of etiquette to "dis" the host - or any one else here, for that matter.

I hope you don't mean that it might be a breach of etiquette to merely disagree with the host -

?

644 committed  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:36:01am

re: #641 Thanos

I hear you, too. And I follow your logic. But what alternative do people who oppose the plan as it is written have in order to demonstrate their displeasure with it? The civil way to handle this was apparently not working and the uncivil way is being criticized.

645 hopperandadropper  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:40:22am

re: #450 iceweasel

Are you seriously suggesting that the term "tea party" was invented in 2009?

646 walter cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:42:21am

re: #574 revjimsutter

Oh good grief - "The SEIU received a threatening phone call." I was involved in a lawsuit with the SEIU. I took depositions at its national headquarters. There is no more anti-capitalist, anything goes tactical organization than the SEIU. From focused, very disruptive picketing [bussed-in picketers] on coporate board members' private homes, to lying to government regulators so that the organization they are targetting gets "extra" attention from the state, to breaking into corporate offices and pasting bumper stickers all over the walls, to shouting down coporate officers at a board meeting, to filing suits with government regulatory bodies, this organization is like nothing you've ever seen, unless you've been targeted. No excuse for threatening phone calls - but if you would put a gun to my head and make me bet, I'd bet it was a set up.

647 GGMac  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:45:41am

re: #605 HoosierHoops

What up Brat? I really miss the i kan cheesebuger links...You always brought me a smile at the end of a work day..You are good people...
I miss DustyVet..Every since his sis died..Silence...
Depressing

Yes, and likewise - miguel down in mexico...*sniff*...*sigh*

648 GGMac  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:47:56am

re: #646 walter cronanty

Oh good grief - "The SEIU received a threatening phone call." I was involved in a lawsuit with the SEIU. I took depositions at its national headquarters. There is no more anti-capitalist, anything goes tactical organization than the SEIU. From focused, very disruptive picketing [bussed-in picketers] on coporate board members' private homes, to lying to government regulators so that the organization they are targetting gets "extra" attention from the state, to breaking into corporate offices and pasting bumper stickers all over the walls, to shouting down coporate officers at a board meeting, to filing suits with government regulatory bodies, this organization is like nothing you've ever seen, unless you've been targeted. No excuse for threatening phone calls - but if you would put a gun to my head and make me bet, I'd bet it was a set up.


And the SEIU and Obama are joined at the hip. Ugly. True.

649 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:48:54am

re: #644 committed

I hear you, too. And I follow your logic. But what alternative do people who oppose the plan as it is written have in order to demonstrate their displeasure with it? The civil way to handle this was apparently not working and the uncivil way is being criticized.

We don't know if it wasn't working. Right now it doesn't have a chance of working. I'll repeat that the only lever we have is to influence blue dogs, and shouting in their faces is the chosen ploy from people who never read Dale Carnegie or who forgot everything he wrote if they did read him.

650 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:49:34am

re: #646 walter cronanty

Oh good grief - "The SEIU received a threatening phone call." I was involved in a lawsuit with the SEIU. I took depositions at its national headquarters. There is no more anti-capitalist, anything goes tactical organization than the SEIU. From focused, very disruptive picketing [bussed-in picketers] on coporate board members' private homes, to lying to government regulators so that the organization they are targetting gets "extra" attention from the state, to breaking into corporate offices and pasting bumper stickers all over the walls, to shouting down coporate officers at a board meeting, to filing suits with government regulatory bodies, this organization is like nothing you've ever seen, unless you've been targeted. No excuse for threatening phone calls - but if you would put a gun to my head and make me bet, I'd bet it was a set up.

When SEIU was organizing my wife's work place they would be waiting on our steps when she came home. They followed her home a couple of times too.

651 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:53:41am

re: #650 jcm

The day before the election a bunch of SEIU members showed up in my town. They were wearing their SEIU t-shirts and I know they weren't from here as I live in small NH town where there are no unionized stores in town. I mentioned it to my husband how I believe they were in deep with Obama.

652 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:57:32am

re: #650 jcm
They often "visit" the homes of those they are trying to organize - and it's never just one organizer. That is one reason why I'm adamently opposed to card check.

653 ladycatnip  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:58:36am

#649 thanos

I'll repeat that the only lever we have is to influence blue dogs, and shouting in their faces is the chosen ploy from people who never read Dale Carnegie or who forgot everything he wrote if they did read him.

Are we forgetting those who were shouting in the blue dog faces were their own liberal democratic constituents?

654 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:02:17pm

re: #652 Walter Cronanty

They often "visit" the homes of those they are trying to organize - and it's never just one organizer. That is one reason why I'm adamently opposed to card check.

I gave 'em 15 seconds to get off my property, and if they came back they wouldn't have 15 seconds, and I would press charges and they would be going with the Sheriff in hand cuffs. I then said they were down to 8 seconds. They responded they had a right to organize, not on my property 5 seconds. But took their time...

In the end they let my wife opt out, they apparently would rather lose one member than disclose the political activities the fund out of dues.

655 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:02:49pm

re: #651 satan sidekick

If I remember correctly, President Obama has been involved [eg., giving speeches, working with on various projects, etc.] with the SEIU since his "Community Organizer" days in Chicago.

656 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:03:10pm

re: #654 jcm

Good for you!

657 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:03:31pm

re: #651 satan sidekick

The day before the election a bunch of SEIU members showed up in my town. They were wearing their SEIU t-shirts and I know they weren't from here as I live in small NH town where there are no unionized stores in town. I mentioned it to my husband how I believe they were in deep with Obama.

IIRC back in 2000 at the UN millennium conference in NYC, SEIU hosted a dinner with Castro as the speaker.

658 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:04:49pm

re: #655 Walter Cronanty

I wonder what the SEIU was promised in return for campaigning for Obama? A full court press on WalMart being unionization?

659 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:11:01pm

re: #658 satan sidekick

This is not an exhaustive listing, but it's a start:
“We spent a fortune to elect Barack Obama — $60.7 million to be exact — and we’re proud of it,” boasted Andy Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, to the Las Vegas Sun this week. ...The SEIU scored not one, but two, Cabinet appointees: Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius and Labor Secretary Hilda Solis. Stern dubbed Sebelius a “top choice” for the SEIU and lobbied for her confirmation. The SEIU pitched in with maximum campaign donations to Solis’s first congressional campaign and lent her nearly 300 rank-and-file canvassers and ground troops. “I wouldn’t be here, were it not for my friends in the labor movement,” she gushed. Indeed, over four terms in Congress, Solis has pocketed more than $900,000 in union campaign contributions.

Former SEIU chief lobbyist Patrick Gaspard, served as Obama’s campaign national political director and transition deputy director of personnel. During the 2004 election cycle, he led the radical, left-wing George Soros-funded group, America Coming Together (ACT) as national field director. SEIU poured $23 million of workers’ dues money into ACT in its failed attempt to put Democratic Sen. John Kerry in the White House. Under Gaspard’s tenure at ACT, the get-out-the-vote group employed convicted felons as canvassers and committed campaign finance violations that led to a $775,000 fine by the Federal Election Commission – the third largest civil penalty levied in the panel’s history. Gaspard was appointed White House political director shortly after Election Day 2008."
[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

660 satan sidekick  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:17:03pm

re: #659 Walter Cronanty

Can't say I'm surprised. Thanks for posting it. Quite revealing. I wonder which candidate they were pushing in my town? Must have been that weasel Shaheen or the empty headed Shea-Porter

661 hopperandadropper  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:21:41pm

re: #566 Pullus Iulius

However, depending on the derivation of the singular the plural could be "doofera" (as in, the plural of genus is genera).

662 Wendya  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:24:18pm

re: #634 satan sidekick

What is that supposed to mean?


I could ask you the same thing.

663 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:25:45pm

Note that the $60,7 m comes from the payments made by union members who are, for the most part, not well paid - "Janitors for Justice" was one of their big campaigns. I was involved in a situation wherein the targeted membership was nurse's aides at private nursing homes. When I was visiting San Francisco some years ago, the SEIU was trying to organize the maids/luggage carriers [old-fashioned name "bell boys"], at some hotels. Their tactic, completely ringing a hotel at about 8:00 am and marching, chanting, beating trashcan lids, bull horns, accousting those entering the hotel, etc. Anything to cause discomfort to those staying at the hotel.

664 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:28:40pm

re: #659 Walter Cronanty

Can you say Card Check...

665 Wendya  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:28:50pm

re: #658 satan sidekick

I wonder what the SEIU was promised in return for campaigning for Obama? A full court press on WalMart being unionization?

Card Check.

They're still holding out hope.

666 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:32:19pm

re: #665 Wendya

Card Check.

They're still holding out hope.

I've seen reports Reid is trying to slip in the Health Care bill...

667 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:34:33pm

re: #664 jcm

That's the big payoff. It's coming. If they can't get card check, they'll get some hideously restrictive regulation(s) on businesses being able to counter organizing campaigns, with card check waiting in the wings for the next term. Incrementalism.

668 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:38:13pm
“Become a part of the mob!” said a banner posted Friday on the Web site of the talk show host Sean Hannity. “Attend an Obama Care Townhall near you!” The exhortations do not advocate violence, but some urge opponents to be disruptive.

“Pack the hall,” said a strategy memo circulated by the Web site Tea Party Patriots that instructed, “Yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”

“Get him off his prepared script and agenda,” the memo continued. “Stand up and shout and sit right back down.”

Is this what we want for political discourse in American public life? Mobs trying scream down the opposition and prevent discussion? Pathetic.

669 jaunte  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:44:13pm

re: #668 Jimmah

Sophisticated redrawing of districts to protect incumbents is creating a problem here that 'pocket boroughs' caused in Britain in the 1800's.
The less representation that people experience through voting, the more screaming we hear.

670 Kaymad  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:46:31pm

This is amazing. Most of the stuff I've seen (up until union thugs got involved), the crowds have been interactive and passionate, but they've been pretty respectful and the officials have been allowed to speak. What in the hell do you want??? There would be no debate at all if it weren't for these people going to the town hall forrums, as it is some form of healthcare reform is going to be rammed down our throat, yet a bunch of you people ("moderates" I presume), are worried that a few people might be getting out of hand?? Good Lord, just go back home to the democrats for Gods sakes, You can fall in line with them and not handle all this messy debate stuff taking place.

671 jcm  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:51:31pm

re: #669 jaunte

Sophisticated redrawing of districts to protect incumbents is creating a problem here that 'pocket boroughs' caused in Britain in the 1800's.
The less representation that people experience through voting, the more screaming we hear.

Gerry meet Mander...

672 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:53:31pm

re: #668 Jimmah

No, this is not what "we" want for political discourse. But the left has been doing this for years, and has received a very sympathetic ear from left-wing pols, pundits and the MSM. The left is now getting everything they've wanted, in spades. Success breeds imitation. Now, the left is on the receiving end. They're reaping what they've sown. Sad, but true.

673 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:17:40pm

Those who doubt where the violence is coming from, the tactics of the SEIU, and Obama's link to SIEU should really watch this video - especially the last 10 seconds where Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius is quoted as thanking the SEIU for showing up. [Link: hotair.com...]

674 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:20:00pm
675 chipbennett  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:20:24pm

Strangely, the only real mob-like behavior is still coming from the left.

Every altercation thus far (see: St. Louis, Tampa) has been instigated by the left.

In St. Louis, four SEIU thugs attacked a man who was doing nothing other than passing out Gadsden flags to passers-by.

In Tampa, SEIU thugs roughed up an elderly man, while his frightened wife looked on.

All the right has done thus far is pack-out townhall meetings, and get (understandably) frustrated when their elected representatives evade their questions and outright lie to them about the healthcare reform bill.

That's not "mob" behavior.

Why on earth are you quoting the NY Times? Do you honestly believe it to be an objective report of these altercations?

676 harpsicon  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:30:56pm

re: #526 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry, not meaning to keep picking on this one post, but what do you mean by what goes on in universities being 'backed by force'? If you mean assault, I would say, the logical and reasonable answer, once you're outta there, is to press charges.

I don't mind being picked on - these are real problems, as our morals and principles are faced with outrageous challenges in real life.

The turning point in some sense was at Cornell in 1969 (or about) when black "students" (who knows) turned up with weapons on campus to demand their "Black Studies" department. The administration caved and gave it to them. Lesson learned.

Fast forward to today, and the Muslim anti-Isreal and not very hidden anti-Jewish "demonstrations" at UC Irvine and elsewhere. They are physically imposing in their shouting down and interference with normal dialogue.

Then look at the Black Panthers who intimidated voters last November and who just got a pass from Holder AFTER THEY CONFESSED.

Then read #646 about SEIU, which is far more ominous since they are national, whereas the above-cited examples were pretty small-scale (and I notice all minority - nothing intended by that, although they were/are pretty outrageous). With the Alinsky playbook in hand, the Left is in your face, and have no compuction about using legal harassment and the implication of physical threat (big guys showing up on your lawn) if not the real thing.

The Alinsky connection, with even Hillary Clinton cheering on, relates to the universities as well since there now seems to be a whole theory of "persuasion" which is in real life not "academic" at all, but highly calculated and studied - all in pursuit of the Gramscian ideal of ACTION, not contemplation.

When this is married to the electoral practices of Chicago democrats, it could be toxic indeed.

While I am totally non-violent, I try not to be an idiot, and it seems obvious to me that this has to be countered somehow. I don't think it has been, and the current full-court press from Obama, which led Mark Rudd of Columbia 1966 fame to say that Lenin would be proud of Obama and his tactics, has already achieved an alarming amount of damage to the republic, unless I'm badly mistaken.

To counter this by saying that we should go home and think about what we can do, when there's a life- and republic-changing plan in congress, seems not realistic.

As for having a Republican president for eight years, as you put it - no, I don't think this did much beyond a holding action. 9-11 diverted the normal course of events, and most of the political capital of the right was spent winning against the jihad (which I think was successful - look at the state of Al Qaeda on the Arab "street" at this point). The Dems were completely obstructive whenever Bush tried to deal with serious domestic issues.

My posts have been treated a bit lightly, as though I were naive - but I don't think I am. The "Movement" as we called it in the 60's, has been working hard all these years, and while this may be their last hurrah, as they're rapidly going gray, with the lucky accident of Obama they're riding high. And they know exactly what they want to do with America - they've been thinking about nothing else for forty years.

People who cavalierly withheld their vote in the last election, or were pissy about supporting McCain, clearly gave no thought as to what would happen when these people got their hands on the levers of power.

While I agree we have to work hard on all the good things people have suggested, there is also a pressing need to block obamacare and cap-and-trade RIGHT NOW. If these get through, all bets are off.

677 Former Belgian  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:43:09pm

re: #22 iceweasel

Who thinks it's a great idea to gleefully adopt the name 'mob'?

Probably the same geniuses that think it's a great idea to call themselves "right wing extremists".

Did you know that "Tory" (conservative in common UK parlance) originally meant "outlaw"?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The 16th-century Dutch insurgents against the Spanish tyranny called themselves "geuzen" (literally: beggars) after their demands had been pooh-poohed as "beggary". To this day, in my native Dutch , "geuzennaam" refers to an epithet from opponents that is being adopted as a "nom de combat".

[Link: nl.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

678 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:44:28pm

re: #676 harpsicon

Sorry about being anal, but the Black Panthers didn't confess - they simply didn't answer the complaint and had a "default" judgment taken against them - which is treated as if they had confessed.

The "movement" has indeed been working hard. I'm convinced that, since the 60s [in the name of full disclosure, I got "Clean for Gene" in '68 - ah, to be young and stupid] the "workers" largely went into: 1) the more virulent left-wing unions; 2) government regulatory bodies; 3) academia; and, 4) simular pursuits. The rest of us had lives to lead and families to provide for/rear. We're now going to have to catch up.

679 Former Belgian  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:52:06pm

Charles and Free Republic types have learned opposite lessons from 8 years of LLL moonbattery.

Charles concludes it's just as ugly coming from the "right" as from the "left".

The Freepers conclude: "hey, it got them results, and what's sauce for the goose..."

I am afraid, given how dirty a game politics is, that they may both be right.

680 GGMac  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:56:59pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Why are SEIU people there as SEIU representatives to begin with? Who sent them?

I believe it's the SEIU's portion of an I'll -scratch -yours- if -you -scratch -mine arrangement prevalent in Chicago politics, and happily subscribed to by the FCBBHO.

681 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:59:47pm

Some one just posted this "up top." [Link: www.labornotes.org...]
This, from a self-described "monthly magazine and education project that since 1979 has been a center for communication and inspiration for rank-and-file union members and labor activists."

"As the 2008 Labor Notes conference banquet was beginning 200-300 chanting SEIU members and staffers rushed through the side door of the hotel, nearest the banquet hall. The doors had apparently been opened from inside by SEIU staffers attending the conference (see below). Most were wearing the signature SEIU purple T-shirts; some carried signs denouncing the California Nurses Association. CNA Executive Director Rose Ann DeMoro had originally been scheduled to address the banquet, although her cancellation had been announced earlier in the day...Hotel security and Dearborn police eventually made their presence felt. They made no arrests. After chanting “we’ll be back,” the protesters returned to their buses (according to hotel security there were six buses).Earlier, a number of SEIU staffers had disrupted workshops by heckling and attempting to shout down speakers from the CNA or its affiliate the National Nurses Organizing Committee. SEIU and CNA have long been at odds, often in direct competition to represent the same workforce and disagreeing vehemently over single-payer health care legislation, labor-management partnerships, and neutrality agreements that allow a union to recruit members without employer opposition. Their latest skirmish was over health care workers in Ohio."

682 bubbasbbq  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:14:12pm

re: #611 SanFranciscoZionist

Reagan wouldn't like it. One of his greatest strengths was encouraging Americans to feel powerful rather than oppressed.

First of all, Reagan wouldn't be pushing this crap. Second of all, He wouldn't be telling his thug cronies to hit back twice as hard. I don't see any of the so called "mob" acting violent.

Being treated for cancer, I have a very big dog in this fight and I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to wait like they do in Britain or Canada to treat my disease.

So yea, I will do whatever it takes to keep it from happening.

683 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:28:23pm

re: #682 bubbasbbq
My youngest son has been treated for leukemia for the last 3 years [went into remission for about 3 months, came back, more chemo, radiation and bone marrow transplant]. I'm with ya - hang in there! The US medical system, for all of its faults, has been subsidizing the rest of the world's medical systems for years. From new treatments, to new drugs, most of the advancements have come from our entrepreneurial system. When the profit motive is killed, who will do this work?

684 bubbasbbq  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:37:45pm

re: #683 Walter Cronanty

Hi Walter,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm going to be fine. It was caught very early and is being treated very quickly. Plus, I'm being treated at one of the finest centers in the world, where my medical plan allowed me to go to get a second opinion. Would I have that ability under Obama car? I doubt it. I feel terrible about your son. I will say a prayer for him for a full recovery. No child should ever have to face this.

The thing here and the big difference between this and the code pink idiots is that THIS is personal. The politicians are literally gambling with people's lives. You will not get more personal than that. And while it might have been personal for Sheehan, it quickly turned political for too many people as an excuse to protest an d proclaim their hate for GW Bush.

I also find it interesting that Congress and the President would be exempt from this plan as they voted down an amendment to make it mandatory for Congress. I know because I called Judd Gregg's office and they told me.

thanks again walter I wish you and your son the very best.

685 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:48:07pm

re: #684 bubbasbbq

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. It sounds like you have just the right attitude for a complete recovery. You are right, health care becomes very personal, very quickly.

686 GGMac  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:12:39pm

re: #334 iceweasel

Bullshit. This site rips the hell out of Obama and Democrats on a regular basis. You're crying because it's criticising 'the right'-- and rightfully so--- in a story about the right's awful behaviour-- and 'not even referencing the DNC!'

That kind of crap is what's sinking the MSM, btw-- pretending there are always 'two sides' to every story. Sometimes there aren't.

You echo a theme permeating this thread, whether by ignorance, misunderstanding, or denial, which an assumption that ANYone speaking out at the town hall meetings is on "the right". On what basis is this assumption being made? Are there name tags identifying "John Doe, right-winger"?

687 Captain Jack  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:14:00pm

We all know that anybody showing up at these townhall meetings asking tough questions are mostly shills for the pharma industry and right wing groups and they are therefore illegitimate. Only people who organize for left wing causes are legitimate grass roots activists like Barak Obama and ACORN! Go get 'em Charles!

688 formercorpsman  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:30:28pm

re: #635 lurking faith

It is defacto rationing.

I work in health care.

They know where they are spending their money, and they adjust accordingly.

We are going to be paid less for performing the same surgeries next year.

689 formercorpsman  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:31:05pm

re: #682 bubbasbbq

Yes you do. Hang in there, and God bless.

690 formercorpsman  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:33:09pm

re: #686 GGMac

Opposition to Obama.

True democrats, or usual voting blocs just simply would not do that.

Or so I am told.

691 Pete(Detroit)  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:40:20pm

re: #334 iceweasel

That kind of crap is what's sinking the MSM, btw-- pretending there are always 'two sides' to every story. Sometimes there aren't.

ER, no offense, but would you kindly explain WTF you're talking about? I have not seen ANY msm outlet present more than one side of anything in so long it's pathetic. Obama? saint since before the nomination. Healthcare? travesty, that needs reform instantly. Global Warming? all out fault. Cap and Trade? necessary to combat global warming, of course..
etc, etc.
Am I missing something?

692 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:10:25pm

re: #691 Pete(Detroit)
No. I think you've got it all.

693 Pete(Detroit)  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:10:36pm

re: #408 MandyManners

What you see as lack of "guts" others might call good eitquette.

That, and we can disagree in practice, if not in principle; and put more thought into the disagreement than a quick 'you're an ass' downding. For instance, I fully agree that the treatment at THs is appalling - but they're sure not listening to anything else we try. And when the Prez Hisself says 'the time for debate is over' it's pretty silly to engage in 'debate', no?

694 Pete(Detroit)  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:38:49pm

re: #527 Sharmuta

We should see if there isn't a way to harvest the energy of his spins.

That would not only be 'green' but positively funky!

695 I Need A Bigger Gun  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:53:40pm

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

Nope, freedom of speech doesn't always mean popular speech.

Actually, the first amendment is meant to protect unpopular speech. Not hate speech, but unpopular speech.

696 Pete(Detroit)  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:09:01pm

re: #574 revjimsutter

Some of the protesters are now planning armed violence at the town hall meetings. See http://www.chasingevil.org/2009/08/town-hall-prote stors-threaten-armed.html

that's uncool

697 chipbennett  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:15:55pm

re: #228 Charles

No -- the reason why people are going to be labeled "mobs" or "kooks" is because there's a sizeable contingent of right-wing people who ARE acting like mobs full of kooks. This isn't something being made up by the Dems or the media.

Just so that we're on the same page: what do you define as "acting like mobs full of kooks"?

I'm only asking to ensure we're talking about the same thing. From what I've seen, the only over-the-line activity has come from the ObamaCare supporters camp:

- "Reserving" prime seating at townhall events for bussed-in ObamaCare supporters
- Preventing protesters from entering the townhall facility
- Sneaking bussed-in ObamaCare supporters in through a side door
- Pointing bullhorns in protesters' faces
- Ripping signs out of people's hands
- Shoving their way into and to the front of crowds of protesters
- Roughing up townhall attendees
- Slapping the face of political opponents
- Physically assaulting political opponents

I just want to make sure I'm not missing things that you're hearing, that the ObamaCare protesters are doing that is over the line.

Because, any other differences aside, I agree with you: we should not condone over-the-line (and especially illegal) behavior.

By the way, most of these townhalls are happening in democratic districts, and the attendees are not just Republican, but are independents and Democrats, as well.

698 meh130  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:41:15pm

re: #163 Charles

No, the dems are not looking worse. Not by a long shot.

You have a point, if you mean how things are being portrayed in the MSM. But from what I see and hear, those looking the worst of all in this are the politicians, who look incompetent, feeble, and weak at these events. They are unable to answer questions, and instead go straight into talking points. At that point is when they typically get booed and shouted at. Then the politician high-tails it out the back door, and looks not only incompetent, but cowardly.

There are too many stories of people arriving hours early, only to not be let in. There are too many stories of town halls being carefully and secretly scheduled, in hopes nobody finds out about them, so the politician can have only a handful of supporters there, and then claim success after the fact. There are too many stories of politicians doing weird "Phone Town Halls".

Think about it. If conservatives are looking so bad at this, Democrat congress members would be running to do these town halls everywhere. If the Democrats gain and the Republicans lose by having these town halls open to all, the Democrats would be scheduling more, and throwing open the doors. They are not.

Why? Because the pols look like clueless fools at these events. You have grandma who knows more of the bill than Representative Pullispud. You have Joe the barber reading directly from a 1000 page printout of the bill he took the the town hall. The pols have been exposed as having no clothes.

One last thing. These two articles do a very good job of describing what his happening at these town halls. I really think Noonan choice of title hits the nail on the head. The predominant emotion at these town halls is fear, not anger. Anger is only the symptom.

Max Shulz: A Town-Hall Protest in Maryland

Peggy Noonan: 'You Are Terrifying Us'

699 GGMac  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:21:33pm

re: #690 formercorpsman

Opposition to Obama.

True democrats, or usual voting blocs just simply would not do that.

Or so I am told.

Ah, yes - they would never question the One, or his agenda for their lives.

Obamageddon awaits.

700 scullymj  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:09pm

Attention!!!
People, I urge you all to begin changing our vocabulary. When Discussing a Obama/Democratic "Bill or Plan", please substitute the word "scheme". In British English "scheme" is perfectly acceptable but in American English "scheme" has always had a negative tone so let's all begin to use "scheme". A new set of words can carry subtle meanings to advance our position.
The word "scheme", used with a sneer and a raised eyebrow when discussing Red Barry's agenda will payoff in spades.

701 kansas  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:24:20pm

OBAMA: 'I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess'..

702 coloradobuff  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:32:09pm

re: #697 chipbennett

I agree. Certainly, the media will portray the protesters as kooks, but that doesn't quite jive with the behavior I have seen out of people from the other side, like the SEIU members that have been showing up at these things.

From the very start, these townhall meetings are little more than PR ploys to support the government plan, and its obvious the organizers have no interest in hearing what the people have to say. Instead, the meetings are organized to show how "popular" the plan is. The protesters who attend these things understand this from the outset, and know that calm, intelligent questioning will essentially be ignored. To me, that explains some of the outbursts.

Secondly, many of these people have never protested anything in their lives, so they are not exactly experienced in these things. My in-laws are perfect examples. They have been going to tea-parties, health care reform demonstrations, and the like over the last few months because they are incredibly frustrated with what is going on like nothing else that has happened in their 70 years. The people at the AARP meeting in Dallas are a similar group of concerned citizens.

As a result, what these people are doing may not be perfect, but as long as they are not on the same side as the media, they will either be treated or depicted as kooks, or ignored altogether, and I think they feel the stakes are too high to be ignored. Given that, I will not be criticizing much of what they do.

703 nonic  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:39:23pm

I think there’s a very good possibility that this so-called “mob” behavior – for the most part really just raucous refusal to accept evasions and lies --- *IS* in fact a very effective way to “persuade” dems to back off from ObamaCare.

Look at the response of the dem reps. They are restricting attendance to town hall meetings, holding meetings via TV link, cancelling meetings.

Why?

If the so-called “mob” behavior were GOOD for the dems, because it makes conservatives look bad, they’d want MORE of it. Not less.

They’re certainly not really afraid for their personal safety. The meetings are loaded with cops and body guards. And any actual assault of a rep would be gold in the media.

I think the dem reps realize that the inevitable publicity of growing dissent – including videos of reps looking like fools while their constituents boo and jeer them – can only serve to encourage MORE dissent by educating those not yet paying much attention.

It is just like when the media under-reports attendance at anti-big-government demonstrations. Or on April 15 when Obama pretended he had no idea there were Tea Parties going on.

If the other side is making EFFECTIVE noise, they want to hush it up.

This understanding is also the only way to explain the apparent hypocrisy of the left and the media pushing loud and in-your-face dissent when it is THEIR issue, but being prissy about it when it’s coming from the other side.

704 TheBurbs  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:40:16pm

The Video linked in comment 40 was fantastic. I urge people to watch this if they haven't already.

The clueless AARP community organizer couldn't get the folks at the Dallas townhall to buy her initial assertion. She then closed down the meeting when the audience made it clear they continued to disagree with her. There was no shouting, foot-stamping, or chanting from the audience. Their only offense was that they didn't buy her bull and made it clear they didn't.

The assembled oldsters, bless their hearts, continued the meeting, on their own, in a rational manner, as the AARP community organizer exited in a huff.

Whatever else this video shows, it makes it obvious that the AARP is in the bag for Obama.

705 Silvergirl  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 10:45:06pm

re: #551 katemaclaren

Oh, before I forget to say it--thankyou for your thoughtful comment, Silvergirl.

I really appreciate that, kate! Your story above was an intriguing read.

706 Mosse  Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:22:43pm

re: #369 katemaclaren

Thanks for this. Make sure you post your information around.

707 moriarity  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 2:01:51am

The Democrats achieved total power by thugish, oft times brutal behavior in recent years. The behavior of the anti-Health Plan protesters is extremely meek comparatively. Just how do you affect a quiet, solemn debate with a dedicated Ideologue who misrepresents their constituency? Should the recent protestations in Iran have been conducted with a candle light march and closed mouths?

708 Kathianne  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 6:24:21am

re: #21 Charles

Look -- the tea party groups are absolutely heavily promoting this mob behavior, and so is Glenn Beck. I don't know why you want to pretend it isn't happening.

Charles, I'm not a knee jerk Republican, heck I really don't identify with the party anymore. I don't care for Beck, he builds ratings on trying to incite radical behavior.

With that disclaimer, I just haven't seen the tea party people acting in the manner that the Democrats and now you are saying they are. Are there people that attend something like that that may act badly? Give me a group of more than 12 and at least one will. That doesn't mean the organization is bad.

On the other hand, bringing in the Unions is most definitely organized, but where is the 'mob' reaction? They are the ones that physically harmed another.

Neither party is responding to real concerns, they are doing so at their own peril for 2010.

709 arf  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 10:07:42am

[Link: www.11alive.com...]

This is how the politicians treat a constituent who tries to be civil.

710 arf  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 10:18:03am

Here's another one.

Talk about people with good ideas getting shouted down.

711 chipbennett  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 11:07:49am

I'm still not seeing any examples of conservatives instigating any over-the-line behavior...

712 [deleted]  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 2:55:42pm
713 YESOUISI  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 7:50:34pm

I am puzzled that the times is your source of *information* about town hall meetings being disrupted, seeing as how they are the parrot for the DNC. The major news outlets and locals as well, underreported the Tea Party protests, and now you accept their reporting on town hall meetings as objective and complete?

714 connertown  Sun, Aug 9, 2009 10:20:35pm

Charles -

By your own admission, you are relying on the video footage of some of these meetings.

Of course you are only seeing the most extreme "newsworthy" events. You don't need to paint the entire Tea Party crowd with such a broad brush. I intend to participate, but I've got a pretty level head.

Don't get me wrong. Dammit, we are ticked off that another bad bill that does not have the support of the majority of the people is being forced upon us. Making our opinions known, loudly and forcefully, is the proven method for making sure it doesn't get passed.

To put it in Obama-ese, a majority of the people are saying "Let me be clear." We don't want there to be any misunderstanding. If the law passes, then we have to deal with it forever.

715 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 6:48:56am
716 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 6:58:03am
717 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:18:22am

The flouncers (who have never contributed comments to LGF before) appeared in this thread late, I see.

718 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:19:51am

re: #714 connertown

Charles -

By your own admission, you are relying on the video footage of some of these meetings.

That's right -- I've seen more than a dozen videos from different angles, and I saw a whole lot of people acting very badly. Maybe you're going to try to argue I didn't really see that -- good luck.

719 chipbennett  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 8:23:34am

re: #718 Charles

That's right -- I've seen more than a dozen videos from different angles, and I saw a whole lot of people acting very badly. Maybe you're going to try to argue I didn't really see that -- good luck.

Again: any reports of Republicans instigating any of this behavior?

Further, any evidence that the ObamaCare protesters participating in the shouting are all Republicans?

To reiterate:

1) I believe that there is nothing unpatriotic or particularly or inherently uncivil with mere shouting, especially when constituents are having their questions avoided and are being blatantly lied to by their representatives.

2) On the other hand, I whole-heartedly denounce the instigation, elevation, or reciprocity of any violent behavior (though I certainly condone acting in self-defense).

I just want to see some evidence that those on our side (i.e. anti-ObamaCare) are instigating, elevating, or reciprocating any such behavior.


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