What about the sinister, eerie type of light in horror movies?

And there is the light that make cockroaches scurry.

Cash-strapped Cuba says toilet paper running short

Cuba, in the grip of a serious economic crisis, is running short of toilet paper and may not get sufficient supplies until the end of the year, officials with state-run companies said on Friday.

Be careful with whom you shake hands.

Sinister, Latin for 'left'. A coincidence I am sure.

re: #1 Sharmuta

"Whore movies? Where's Jane Fonda?"

//Cheech

re: #1 Sharmuta

What about the sinister, eerie type of light in horror movies?

Or worse that flickering epileptic seizure inducing flashing like in "Alien"...

re: #2 BatGuano

Or koala bears.

re: #6 Thanos

Or worse that flickering epileptic seizure inducing flashing like in "Alien"...

Then, of course, there's back lighting which kind of does both the glow and glare thing.

re: #5 Macker

"Whore movies? Where's Jane Fonda?"

//Cheech

LMAO! I'm going to sign off now. Sleep well, all.

Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in awhile, or the light won't come in.
--Alan Alda

re: #3 solomonpanting

I was on You Tube with a LGF link today. No people are dumber than You Tube commenters. Absolutely none. Sanity is verboten. A repeating comment/theme caught mt attention: Cuba's problems are entirely caused by the US sanctions. The fact that 180 other countries can trade with them is somehow unimportant in this moron's mind.

re: #6 Thanos

Or worse that flickering epileptic seizure inducing flashing like in "Alien"...

Before that, itre: #9 Dark_Falcon

was in Andromeda strain. Don't remember it in Alien.

re: #12 BatGuano

Once again, I have garbled two responses.
Goodnight, Dark_Falcon

The epileptic thing was in The Andromeda Strain. I don't remember it in Alien.

I rather enjoy the 4 per second epileptic light, but then I also enjoyed Blue Cheer. Frankly, it helps me concentrate.

re: #12 BatGuano

Yep, epileptic in Andromeda strain. One of Michael Chrichton's first books. Bummer he is dead.

re: #15 eddiespaghetti

Yep, epileptic in Andromeda strain. One of Michael Chrichton's first books. Bummer he is dead.

MAJOR bummer. In 1969, when I was 14, I joined the Book-of-the-month-club. The first selection was the Andromeda Strain, by 26 year old Michael Crichton: I was a fan ever since.

re: #11 pat

I was on You Tube with a LGF link today. No people are dumber than You Tube commenters. Absolutely none. Sanity is verboten. A repeating comment/theme caught mt attention: Cuba's problems are entirely caused by the US sanctions. The fact that 180 other countries can trade with them is somehow unimportant in this moron's mind.

The US trades with Honduras and Haiti. How are those countries doing?

re: #14 pat

I rather enjoy the 4 per second epileptic light, but then I also enjoyed Blue Cheer. Frankly, it helps me concentrate.

Blue Cheer, Summer time Blues?

re: #16 BatGuano

Goodness, you just dated yourself! He did rock, however.

re: #11 pat

I was on You Tube with a LGF link today. No people are dumber than You Tube commenters. Absolutely none. Sanity is verboten. A repeating comment/theme caught mt attention: Cuba's problems are entirely caused by the US sanctions. The fact that 180 other countries can trade with them is somehow unimportant in this moron's mind.

Agreed. Youtube commenters are make Alex Jones look sane.

re: #19 eddiespaghetti

Indeed he did. He was scientist who had some things to say about global warning eco-fanaticism.

Hey fellow Lizards, I'm on vacation this week. Need to make some pretty important life decisions. Where to live and where to work. If any are of the praying type (or not!) I would appreciate your thoughts coming my way. Thanks!

Are any of our 'Lost' fans logged in now? I can't remember who they are, but know it's discussed with some regularity. I'm not a fan myself simply because I've never watched.

I came across this that confirms a cast member's return.

BBL

re: #18 BatGuano

Saw it live...multiple times. lol Still on running ipod. Then so is Twisted Sister.

re: #21 BatGuano

I wasn't going to say anything cause of the last thread, as sides have been chosen and clearly feet are stuck in stone on the subject. But agreed, that is one of the many reasons I liked him, zig when the herd zags.

re: #23 Silvergirl

I am one of the resident Lost fans, thanks for the link. I really didn't think there was much doubt that she would be back though. The scene that she ostensibly died in also killed off pretty much every other regular cast member as well.

and I say, let there be overnight

re: #15 eddiespaghetti

I enjoyed some of his stories. He lived on our Island. I walked in Borders one day and he was having a book chat. My wife is a huge fan. So I bought an autographed hardcover right from him. He loved Hawaii, and we enjoyed his presence.

re: #23 Silvergirl

thanks, that is good news, my wife liked her...

re: #21 BatGuano

yea, i enjoyed work dealing with global warming. i have had my beat down here about it, so i wont go into it again, but he is missed.

re: #29 pat

Cool story, which island?

There are two kinds of light — the glow that illumines, and the glare that obscures.

For your late night enjoyment... some glowing HD time lapses from Vimeo (be sure to double click on the videos, open to full screen with HD On):

Chrichton lived on Kauai.

re: #33 freetoken

wow, gorgeous, thanks.

There are two kinds of light — the glow that illumines, and the glare that obscures.

— James Thurber

Thurber left out the third -- and most common -- kind:

The reflection that distorts.

re: #1 Sharmuta

What about the sinister, eerie type of light in horror movies?

Funny you should mention that. I was at Adams County Unemployment Center (I think that's what it's called) and I noticed a Motivational Poster that said Opportunity followed by the usual motivational text. The picture looked like the closet door from Poltergeist when it was just cracking open with the intense white light silhouetting the door itself. It was a very creepy yet funny motivational poster.

I'm kinda bummed. I very well may have injured myself today. Oh, fudge! (but I didn't say fudge.)

re: #38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I seem to injure my self every day. In fact it has been a joke around me for years. LOL

re: #38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm kinda bummed. I very well may have injured myself today. Oh, fudge! (but I didn't say fudge.)

The Big One.
The F dash dash dash word.

re: #38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You didn't say this, did you?

In the movie "The Program"... Football player is lying on the field after being hurt. Coach (James Caan) comes over and says (as I remember), "Are you hurt or are you injured."

Player says, "Huh?"

Caan, "If you're injured, we can call an ambulance, have them come pick you up and take you to the hospital. If you're hurt, you can get your sorry ass back over into practice."

I thought I might be hurt. But, I think I might be injured.

Oops, meant this.

I am officially retarded, third time a charm?

re: #23 Silvergirl

Are any of our 'Lost' fans logged in now? I can't remember who they are, but know it's discussed with some regularity. I'm not a fan myself simply because I've never watched.

I came across this that confirms a cast member's return.

Good morning (here). Do you mean the redhead? Spoilers are the blood of this show, and they never spoil anything.

:)

G'nite, Lizards. Sweet dreams!

I am falling asleep, but have to stay awake as NY Grampa's blood glucose is
way too high, as he ate dinner late...too busy taking care of the almost-3 year old grandson, in Brooklyn, so the kids could get out for dinner and a movie.

The bandit used every excuse in the book to stay up, and poor NY Grampa was caught in his trap! He said he uh, neglected to tell the kids when they came home, and the little guy can't tell time, so he can't rat him out!

And also the 3 books read to him that get read to him every night; he picks them...and he had to get his Handy Manny tool kit to bring into his bedroom, just in case something needed to be fixed! What a wise guy, but everyone adores him.

re: #41 eddiespaghetti

re: #43 eddiespaghetti

re: #44 eddiespaghetti

I am officially retarded, third time a charm?

Wow. That was a lot of work.

re: #47 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Embarrassing. F@#$

Meltdown: Democratic Congressman David Scott of Georgia Goes Berserk at Town Hall

You simple people don't understand the complexity of government. You're all just a bunch of right-wing teabaggers paid by the GOP.

re: #49 Racer X

I get paid for this? Is it direct deposit? Damn it, I'm getting jipped.

re: #49 Racer X

Did he say, "I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?"

Hello Everyone!

re: #52 Afrocity

As I live and breathe...

re: #49 Racer X

Funny. Berserk's a strong word. But, funny.

:-)

Obama is full of shit.

A Triple Sunrise Over Gdansk Bay

Thanks for that link Racer X. I will use it on my blog and hat tip you.

re: #58 Afrocity

You are welcome!

Hope all is well with you!

re: #52 Afrocity

great website afrocity

re: #59 Racer X

I am doing well, Racer, as happy as your little "Trixie" could be.
Obama is doing as horribly as I predicted. I love being right.

re: #60 mrshankly01

Thanks Mr. Shankly01. You guys make me want to anime my avatar up a bit.

re: #62 Afrocity
So. You have a bathing suit pic? Don't change what is perfect.

Hey late night lizards.
Can't sleep either?

re: #49 Racer X

Meltdown: Democratic Congressman David Scott of Georgia Goes Berserk at Town Hall

You simple people don't understand the complexity of government. You're all just a bunch of right-wing teabaggers paid by the GOP.

Thanks for posting this.
The Dems aren't exactly angels in all this and the media is making it seem like anyone speaking out against Obama care are raving loons. It would be nice to have an unbiased picture.

re: #62 Afrocity
reminds us of our youths

re: #66 mrshankly01

Ha...I had my birthday on 8/2, the pics are on my blog. Went to ride my car for a bit. Talk about old, cant believe how old I am.

JC, I don't think anybody realizes we routinely WB aircrew / SF as part of their training.

Self flagellation, repeat, repeat, arg...

re: #65 VioletTiger

Thanks for posting this.
The Dems aren't exactly angels in all this and the media is making it seem like anyone speaking out against Obama care are raving loons. It would be nice to have an unbiased picture.

I hesitated in posting that video of congressman Scott - there is that nasty Joker image in the corner.

Here is the original video from 11Alive.

re: #63 pat

So. You have a bathing suit pic? Don't change what is perfect.

That is nasty LGF rumor, that I am either a) nude or b) wearing a bikini in my avatar pic or c) not really Afrocity or a 300lb Dove Bar eating liar.

I am wearing a t-strap sun dress in my avatar pic. Honest I am.

re: #69 Racer X

I hesitated in posting that video of congressman Scott - there is that nasty Joker image in the corner.

Here is the original video from 11Alive.

Why so serious?/

re: #70 Afrocity
Did a quick lookie at your blog. Just wondering if you have ever seen this...

The Law and Order team is saving a gibbon. I am watching WAY too much TV this summer.

re: #72 Cannadian Club Akbar

Could not view the video, but I can tell I have never seen it before.

re: #67 Afrocity

:), you dont look old

Evening komrades lizards...any fishy stuff I need to report to the White House blog?
/

re: #71 Afrocity

When I first saw the Obama image with Joker makeup, I did not think of race - I just thought Boy Wonder has now officially transformed into The Joker. I guess many others took it as racist.

re: #76 Fenway_Nation

Evening komrades lizards...any fishy stuff I need to report to the White House blog?
/

How about the Bass Pro catalog?/

re: #77 Racer X

What??? I have never heard that it was racist until just now.
For the love of Rosa Parks, Obama turns everything in race.

What is it supposed to be? Obama in white face??/

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

The Law and Order team is saving a gibbon. I am watching WAY too much TV this summer.

How many Law and Orders are there now? I grew tired of it. And I have seen every one from the first 6 or so years of the original.

re: #76 Fenway_Nation

Just this. Nothing to see here, move along please...

re: #77 Racer X

When I first saw the Obama image with Joker makeup, I did not think of race - I just thought Boy Wonder has now officially transformed into The Joker. I guess many others took it as racist.

I didn't take it as racist either, just evidence that Obama is no longer above some level of ridicule.

re: #80 Cannadian Club Akbar

How many Law and Orders are there now? I grew tired of it. And I have seen every one from the first 6 or so years of the original.

At least three. I can watch this stuff for hours. Or sort of watch, sort of read, clean, cook...There was an In Plain Sight marathon today, though, which made me happy.

re: #78 VioletTiger

We all know how much good ol' boys racist backwards neo-confederates love to fish...better notify Ear leader's blog.

/

re: #49 Racer X

Meltdown: Democratic Congressman David Scott of Georgia Goes Berserk at Town Hall

You simple people don't understand the complexity of government. You're all just a bunch of right-wing teabaggers paid by the GOP.

An arrogant son of a bitch is he. And Point of Inquiry here: I thought "teabagging" is a sexual action...

re: #84 Fenway_Nation

We all know how much good ol' boys racist backwards neo-confederates love to fish...better notify Ear leader's blog.

/

When I go fishing I usuaslly come home with chicken or steak.

re: #85 Macker

An arrogant son of a bitch is he. And Point of Inquiry here: I thought "teabagging" is a sexual action...

It has sexual connotations and the left uses it as a derogatory term. They took 'tea party' and added their own twist.

re: #77 Racer X

When I first saw the Obama image with Joker makeup, I did not think of race - I just thought Boy Wonder has now officially transformed into The Joker. I guess many others took it as racist.

As do many other el cubos and even those who consider themselves "moderate". They know who they are.

So... I think it is late enough for this...:

All you ever need to know about men and women in one photo.

---!!!NSFW!!!---

re: #86 Cannadian Club Akbar

When I go fishing I usuaslly come home with chicken or steak.

When I was a kid, my father and I went on a salmon-fishing day out to the Farallones and came home with nothing. (Horrific weather.) My mom made a meatloaf salmon, with carrot slice scales.

re: #86 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #84 Fenway_Nation

When I go fishing I usuaslly come home with chicken or steak.

Maybe you're using the wrong grenades...

re: #89 freetoken

That's my cue to hit the hay. Night all.

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

When I was a kid, my father and I went on a salmon-fishing day out to the Farallones and came home with nothing. (Horrific weather.) My mom made a meatloaf salmon, with carrot slice scales.

How cool is your mom! That's awesome.

re: #92 Afrocity

G'nite Afrocity-

/seems like I just got here

re: #92 Afrocity

Don't blame you. lol. good night.

re: #91 Fenway_Nation

Maybe you're using the wrong grenades...

When I was a kid we would use M-80's. Not kidding. Schools of mullet aren't hard to spot.

I have on NGC and that fucking Sham-wow guy commercial is running. That is one reason I stopped watching TV for the most part.

re: #97 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have on NGC and that fucking Sham-wow guy commercial is running. That is one reason I stopped watching TV for the most part.

National Government Channel?

re: #97 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'll take a hundred coked-up Billy Mays over Vince the hooker-puncher ShamWow guy...

re: #85 Macker

No audio for me.

re: #99 Fenway_Nation

I'll take a hundred coked-up Billy Mays over Vince the hooker-puncher ShamWow guy...

What about this ShamWow guy?

re: #98 Macker

National Government Channel?

That would be NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, CNN, etc.

re: #101 Macker

re: #99 Fenway_Nation

What about this ShamWow guy?

Too much sham- not enough wow.

There is football on tonight, yes? Hall of Fame game?

Funny stuff, and on that note G'night ya'll!

re: #105 eddiespaghetti

G'nite eddie!

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

John, chapter 3, verses 19-21

re: #101 Macker

lol SHAM WOW!

Something fruitcup this way comes...

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet → → → → →
Help yourselves!

Fabulous Bette Davis movie is on the TV! ← ← ← ← ←
Good day, ALL!™

/...at least until later

w00t! :-)

/already checked...didn't win the PowerBall :-(

*p00f*!

re: #110 littleoldlady

Who was that masked littleoldlady?

re: #110 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet → → → → →
Help yourselves!

Fabulous Bette Davis movie is on the TV! ← ← ← ← ←
Good day, ALL!™

/...at least until later

Sorry I'm late lol. Watching History of World part 1. Thank you for the fruitcup,

Later, lol.

Nd she hit it at exactly 2:00:00

Sunday doldrums: No wind for our sails.

Do they drug test congress?

re: #117 Cannadian Club Akbar

Do they drug test congress?

They don't have to, they're all on drugs, they only test for the ones who aren't.

re: #117 Cannadian Club Akbar

No. They exempted themselves.

re: #119 BatGuano

No. They exempted themselves.

Are you serious?

re: #120 Cannadian Club Akbar

No, I'm not. I've never heard it raised as an issue. I was just guessing that if it was they would exempt themselves.

I caught part of the movie "The Contender" yesterday afternoon. Man, you wanna see the ugly side of DC, that is the movie. And of course, the Republicans were the bad guys.

re: #122 Cannadian Club Akbar

I caught part of the movie "The Contender" yesterday afternoon. Man, you wanna see the ugly side of DC, that is the movie. And of course, the Republicans were the bad guys.

I've never seen it but it is no surprise that Republicans are the bad guys.

re: #123 BatGuano

I've never seen it but it is no surprise that Republicans are the bad guys.

You should really see it. The one really bad spot is where the woman trying to be confirmed for VP is in front of a special session of the Senate and gives a speech. In the speech she is so contradictory, your head will spin. A convoluted message on her beliefs. But, she does say she wants all guns removed from all private citizens.

Damn. Bette Davis yesterday. Cary Grant all day today...

/...I am going to get NOTHING done! :-/

*p00f*! ... redux

re: #125 littleoldlady

Gone again?

re: #117 Cannadian Club Akbar

I would prefer a common sense test.

re: #127 Simple Voice

I would prefer a common sense test.

Most would FAIL.

we now conclude our broadcasting day.

Good night, all.

There is a light and it never goes out...

So, I have this theory...

There’s a very good possibility that this so-called “mob” behavior – for the most part really just raucous refusal to accept evasions and lies --- *IS* in fact a very effective way to “persuade” dems to back off from ObamaCare.

Look at the response of the dem reps. They are restricting attendance to town hall meetings, holding meetings via TV link, cancelling meetings.

Why?

If the “mob” behavior were GOOD for the dems, because it makes conservatives look bad, they’d want MORE of it. Not less.

They’re certainly not really afraid for their personal safety. The meetings are loaded with cops and body guards. And any actual assault of a rep would be gold in the media.

I think the dem reps realize that the inevitable publicity of growing dissent – including videos of reps looking like fools while their constituents boo and jeer them – can only serve to encourage MORE dissent by educating those not yet paying much attention.

It is just like when the media under-reports attendance at anti-big-government demonstrations. Or on April 15 when Obama pretended he had no idea there were Tea Parties going on.

If the other side is making EFFECTIVE noise, they want to hush it up.

This understanding is also the only way to explain the apparent hypocrisy of the left and the media pushing loud and in-your-face dissent when it is THEIR issue, but being prissy about it when it’s coming from the other side.

re: #132 nonic

Shutting down debate doesn't help Conservatives at all. If it helps anyone, it's the Democrats, who are given an excuse to withdraw behind closed doors and to withhold explanations of what they support and how they'll vote.

It also prevents others in attendance from hearing alternative views, who might otherwise be swayed to support a more conservative agenda.

re: #133 SixDegrees

Shutting down debate doesn't help Conservatives at all. If it helps anyone, it's the Democrats, who are given an excuse to withdraw behind closed doors and to withhold explanations of what they support and how they'll vote.

It also prevents others in attendance from hearing alternative views, who might otherwise be swayed to support a more conservative agenda.

People demanding answers, and even loudly expressing their disgust at lies and evasions, are not shutting down debate. They are TRYING to get answers. Instead, they get talking points, which is exactly what is making them angry.

Watch an assortment of the videos. Virtually all that I have seen follow the pattern of the AARP one, where the speaker is trying to stick to her say-nothing script and the audience wants more than that. Unable to follow her script, she walks out. AND THAT'S WHEN the audience stays and actually starts debating among themselves!

"Shutting down the debate" is nothing more than a weak dem talking point.

In my best Robin Williams voice :

Goood Mooornnninnnggg, LGFFF.

Who brought doughnuts ?

re: #135 SasquatchOnSteroids

Not sure about doughnuts, but I know who will be cooking a slab of ribs, collard greens and mac-n-cheese later today.

re: #136 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not sure about doughnuts, but I know who will be cooking a slab of ribs, collard greens and mac-n-cheese later today.

Address and time please ?

/

re: #137 SasquatchOnSteroids

Address and time please ?

/

Next to my friends pool. Bring beer.

re: #138 Cannadian Club Akbar

Next to my friends pool. Bring beer.

Nice. Have a good time.

re: #134 nonic

People demanding answers, and even loudly expressing their disgust at lies and evasions, are not shutting down debate. They are TRYING to get answers. Instead, they get talking points, which is exactly what is making them angry.

Watch an assortment of the videos. Virtually all that I have seen follow the pattern of the AARP one, where the speaker is trying to stick to her say-nothing script and the audience wants more than that. Unable to follow her script, she walks out. AND THAT'S WHEN the audience stays and actually starts debating among themselves!

"Shutting down the debate" is nothing more than a weak dem talking point.

The people in many of these video are preventing others from speaking.

The result that you're gloating about - driving the meetings behind closed doors - also prevents speech.

This is not something to be proud of, to extoll or to emulate. It is a repulsive abridgement of a fundamental right, and no amount of spin is going to excuse it. It's wrong when the Left does it, and it's wrong when the Right does it. To simplify things even more: it's wrong when anyone does it.

Those who scream to shut out other voices have nothing themselves to say.

Hi all.

The media isn't interested in this story.
[Link: hotair.com...]

Like Jim Treacher said, if Gladney was an Obama supporter, right now he’d be more famous than Rodney King.

Good news, though: Some of the more gutless Democrats in the House have decided to make their town halls “stealth” affairs, which, while depriving constituents of a chance to protest, will at least ensure that SEIU doesn’t send anyone else to the hospital. Meanwhile, here’s your photo of the day, catching another minor bit of dissent-crushing in action. Guess whose side the perpetrator’s on.

I was wonder if any Lizards could help educate me. I just went to the SEIU website. SEIU seems to be implicated in some minor thuggery in the health-care imbroglios throughout the country and I wanted to learn about them.

When I went to the site I saw very little information about what they actually do for their members and a tremendous amount about major policy issues. They seem to be for open borders, nationalized health-care and a whole variety of left wing programs.

They take dues from their members to advocate for things that have nothing to do with the jobs or lives of their members. Our labor laws allow such things? If they want to have a political voice, shouldn't they become an organization of some more voluntary sort?

I am confused.

Health-care outbursts foreshadow a hot August

At one point, a man from the audience yelled: "This is not health reform, this is control, control over our lives."

Harkin responded to one man shouting criticisms by saying, "As I said, there is a nationally coordinated effort to disrupt these meetings."

The man responded that no one had sent him to the meeting.

Oh my, how dare he! Just terrible. The protester is clearly lying. He's from the national Rethuglican rent-a-mob mannequin squad. This should never happen in Obama's America.

re: #141 FrogMarch

Good news, though: Some of the more gutless Democrats in the House have decided to make their town halls “stealth” affairs

This is not good news. It is the worst possible news. It means that there is now no opportunity for opposing voices to be heard. The Glen Becks and Judge Napolitanos of the world couldn't have done a better job of shutting off debate and leaving the Democrats free to work in an ideological echo chamber if they had been on George Soros' payroll.

re: #142 Cato

I was wonder if any Lizards could help educate me. I just went to the SEIU website. SEIU seems to be implicated in some minor thuggery in the health-care imbroglios throughout the country and I wanted to learn about them.

When I went to the site I saw very little information about what they actually do for their members and a tremendous amount about major policy issues. They seem to be for open borders, nationalized health-care and a whole variety of left wing programs.

They take dues from their members to advocate for things that have nothing to do with the jobs or lives of their members. Our labor laws allow such things? If they want to have a political voice, shouldn't they become an organization of some more voluntary sort?

I am confused.

Big unions are an extension - a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democrat Party.

re: #134 nonic

People demanding answers, and even loudly expressing their disgust at lies and evasions, are not shutting down debate. They are TRYING to get answers. Instead, they get talking points, which is exactly what is making them angry.

Watch an assortment of the videos. Virtually all that I have seen follow the pattern of the AARP one, where the speaker is trying to stick to her say-nothing script and the audience wants more than that. Unable to follow her script, she walks out. AND THAT'S WHEN the audience stays and actually starts debating among themselves!

"Shutting down the debate" is nothing more than a weak dem talking point.

Wasn't that meeting called a "listening" meeting, i.e., the AARP spokeswoman was supposed to listen to its members?

re: #144 SixDegrees

This is not good news. It is the worst possible news. It means that there is now no opportunity for opposing voices to be heard. The Glen Becks and Judge Napolitanos of the world couldn't have done a better job of shutting off debate and leaving the Democrats free to work in an ideological echo chamber if they had been on George Soros' payroll.

It remains to be seen if it will matter. I doubt those town halls were set up to be anything but an echo chamber for the pro-side of the issue.

Good Morning Lizards. A quiet Sunday morning I see. I am still mainlining caffeine, about to start getting ready for our first Mass in the new Parish.

re: #143 FrogMarch

Health-care outbursts foreshadow a hot August

Oh my, how dare he! Just terrible. The protester is clearly lying. He's from the national Rethuglican rent-a-mob mannequin squad. This should never happen in Obama's America.

Standing up and shouting out of turn while someone else is speaking is rude and uncalled for in any setting. In this particular setting, it gets you instantly labeled as a loud-mouthed trouble maker intent on disrupting a public meeting. True or not, it comes with the territory. This sort of behavior is completely counterproductive, and gains Conservatives nothing but a reputation as juvenile assholes.

By all means, get up and take the microphone - when it is offered to you - and use your allotted time to present a cogent counterargument. Then sit down and hold your tongue while others are afforded the same opportunity.

re: #141 FrogMarch
From one of the spin-offs fron that article (afraid to post the link since I don't know if it is okay for this site)

The anger that has risen to a boil over health care reform was very predictable. In fact, I predicted it back in February. What happened? Well, the Democrats, looking at only the inside the beltway political landscape, rushed the Stimulus bill, TARP II, Cap-and-Trade, and finally the health care reform package as fast as possible through Congress. And they did this for a very well reasoned reason: they knew that if it was slowed down, that all of those bills would fail. Simply, the provisions in none of those bills makes a lick of sense.

With the rush of health care, Obama finally bit off more than he can chew. Health care, unlike the other bills, directly and intimately involves all 305 million people in this country. That, frankly, is why it is such an important issue. But the intimacy of the issue also goes to the heart of the matter.

IMO, the Dems and the media are making examples of the instances of bad behavior and making it seem like it's all bad behavior, or racist, or astroturf...anything but admit they they are overstepping and people finally woke up when they hit the right issue.

re: #142 Cato

I was wonder if any Lizards could help educate me. I just went to the SEIU website. SEIU seems to be implicated in some minor thuggery in the health-care imbroglios throughout the country and I wanted to learn about them.

When I went to the site I saw very little information about what they actually do for their members and a tremendous amount about major policy issues. They seem to be for open borders, nationalized health-care and a whole variety of left wing programs.

They take dues from their members to advocate for things that have nothing to do with the jobs or lives of their members. Our labor laws allow such things? If they want to have a political voice, shouldn't they become an organization of some more voluntary sort?

I am confused.

This is a repost from the other day:

The White House poltical director, Patrick Gaspard, is a former political director of SEIU.

This afternoon, Patrick Gaspard was named the White House political director for President-elect Barack Obama. Gaspard served as national political director for much of Obama's general election campaign and was named associate personnel director for the transition effort.

Prior to his work with Obama, Gaspard was the executive vice president of politics and legislation for Local 1199 SEIU United Healthcare Workers East. In his role as VP, Gaspard led the union's legislative efforts in Albany, Annapolis, Boston and Washington, DC and coordinated the volunteer efforts that sent hundreds of union members to Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana and other primary election states to campaign for Obama. He also led SEIU's lobbying efforts on the federal State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in 2007. In 2006, Gaspard served as SEIU's acting political director.

re: #148 Erik The Red

How goes the pizza hunt?

re: #142 Cato

At that, you were encountering the thin camouflage which conceals SEIU's interior. Which is deep red.

re: #140 SixDegrees

The people in many of these video are preventing others from speaking.

The result that you're gloating about - driving the meetings behind closed doors - also prevents speech.

This is not something to be proud of, to extoll or to emulate. It is a repulsive abridgement of a fundamental right, and no amount of spin is going to excuse it. It's wrong when the Left does it, and it's wrong when the Right does it. To simplify things even more: it's wrong when anyone does it.

Those who scream to shut out other voices have nothing themselves to say.

"Gloat"? "Extoll"? Where do you get that?

Just the opposite, I am describing how the dems are using people's angry response to HIDE FROM honest debate.

Actually, freedom of speech did not come out of Miss Manners Handy Book of Etiquette. It does not have to conform to any notion of politeness. It can even be far, far ruder and louder than anything we're seeing right now, as long as it does not incite imminent violence against the object of the protest. See the annotated First Amendment [Link: www.gpoaccess.gov...] and

re: #147 FrogMarch

It remains to be seen if it will matter. I doubt those town halls were set up to be anything but an echo chamber for the pro-side of the issue.

That may be so. There is little doubt that opinions expressed at these meeting will not sway the representatives holding them one way or the other. However, there are other people in attendance who may be swayed by a rational argument to shift their support to the Conservative side.

The likelihood of that happening if they leave wiping spittle off their face is vanishingly small.

Already, what we're seeing is the reports of bad behavior dominating the news cycle, with a focus on the ranting drivel spewed by the most lunatic in the crowd. It's a distraction that supporters of nationalized health care are loving to death - any arguments put forward by the opposition is easily written off as that natterings of drooling idiots.

There is nothing to celebrate in such behavior. Nothing at all.

re: #149 SixDegrees

Standing up and shouting out of turn while someone else is speaking is rude and uncalled for in any setting. In this particular setting, it gets you instantly labeled as a loud-mouthed trouble maker intent on disrupting a public meeting. True or not, it comes with the territory. This sort of behavior is completely counterproductive, and gains Conservatives nothing but a reputation as juvenile assholes.

By all means, get up and take the microphone - when it is offered to you - and use your allotted time to present a cogent counterargument. Then sit down and hold your tongue while others are afforded the same opportunity.

Well, not everyone is yelling and shouting. But some are. I wouldn't yell, but that's what people do when they are frustrated, angry and feel shut out.
Here's a thought - instead of accusing your own constituents of being a "rent-a-mob" by their own elected officials, kindly ask the man to take his turn.
This is just an excuse for the pussy democrats to shut the doors and hammer out a deal that most people do not want.

Funny - I still haven't heard much about he union members who beat up a black conservative and who were supposedly arrested.

re: #152 Cannadian Club Akbar

How goes the pizza hunt?

Found a place on Friday that is an 8+ for hot pizza and 8++ for cold. :) No wings though. The only downside is, the distance to drive and they do not deliver. I am happy to make this place a regular pick up. Now I need to find a good delivery place that also does good wings.

re: #144 SixDegrees

This is not good news. It is the worst possible news. It means that there is now no opportunity for opposing voices to be heard. The Glen Becks and Judge Napolitanos of the world couldn't have done a better job of shutting off debate and leaving the Democrats free to work in an ideological echo chamber if they had been on George Soros' payroll.

Do you actually believe that the dems WANT to "debate" ObamaCare?!

Why do you think Obama and Pelosi were so HELL BENT on getting it passed before the reps had to go home and face their constituents?

Answer, please?

re: #150 VioletTiger

From one of the spin-offs fron that article (afraid to post the link since I don't know if it is okay for this site)

IMO, the Dems and the media are making examples of the instances of bad behavior and making it seem like it's all bad behavior, or racist, or astroturf...anything but admit they they are overstepping and people finally woke up when they hit the right issue.

I agree.

re: #150 VioletTiger

From one of the spin-offs fron that article (afraid to post the link since I don't know if it is okay for this site)

IMO, the Dems and the media are making examples of the instances of bad behavior and making it seem like it's all bad behavior, or racist, or astroturf...anything but admit they they are overstepping and people finally woke up when they hit the right issue.

Of course the Democrats are taking advantage of the situation. They're doing exactly the same thing the Right has done for the last several years whenever some loon showed up at a protest with an inflated scrotum or started flinging pies - focusing on aberrant behavior that casts their opposition in the most embarrassing light imaginable.

Unfortunately, the hooters and hollerers shouting down speakers at these meetings are playing directly into Democratic hands.

Someone really, really needs to follow the money, and find out if Glen Beck is on George Soros' payroll. It's hard to imagine a more effective Democratic operative.

re: #157 Erik The Red

Found a place on Friday that is an 8+ for hot pizza and 8++ for cold. :) No wings though. The only downside is, the distance to drive and they do not deliver. I am happy to make this place a regular pick up. Now I need to find a good delivery place that also does good wings.

You want a place that has good pizza, delivers and does wings. wow, you don't expect much LOL
We have a place close to us that delivers and has some of the best pizza I've ever tasted. Might not help you since it is in Maine

re: #160 SixDegrees

Someone really, really needs to follow the money, and find out if Glen Beck is on George Soros' payroll. It's hard to imagine a more effective Democratic operative.

Oh brother.

re: #146 MandyManners

Wasn't that meeting called a "listening" meeting, i.e., the AARP spokeswoman was supposed to listen to its members?

Yeah, I think it was. Isn't that a hoot. LOL

Any opportunity I get, I like to mention that AARP is first and foremost an INSURANCE COMPANY. Look 'em up, even on Wikipedia. The org was founded by an insurance salesman to create an "in" with seniors, and they still get most of their vast revenue from selling insurance and other financial products to seniors. Which is WHY they back ObamaCare, because it will increase the market for their products.

re: #151 MandyManners

The White House poltical director, Patrick Gaspard, is a former political director of SEIU.

One of Obama's initiatives is to eliminate secret ballots at elections where employees decide whether or not they want union representation. Talk about promoting thuggery. There is only one reason to eliminate secret ballots in a union election. So the pro-union thugs can intimidate people into voting for the union.

What could be more fundamental to free elections than secret ballots?

Knowing this is an Obama goal proves to me what he thinks about mob mentality. Its good and fine as long as the mob is on his side.

re: #158 nonic

Do you actually believe that the dems WANT to "debate" ObamaCare?!

Why do you think Obama and Pelosi were so HELL BENT on getting it passed before the reps had to go home and face their constituents?

Answer, please?

They don't want any debate on the issue, I think they tried to stack the townhalls with supporters and were annoyed that the other side showed up out of real concern

re: #148 Erik The Red

Good Morning Lizards. A quiet Sunday morning I see. I am still mainlining caffeine, about to start getting ready for our first Mass in the new Parish.

God bless you and your family.

re: #163 nonic

AARP is a special-interest lobby that gets federal funding. Go figure that out.

re: #164 Mich-again

One of Obama's initiatives is to eliminate secret ballots at elections where employees decide whether or not they want union representation. Talk about promoting thuggery. There is only one reason to eliminate secret ballots in a union election. So the pro-union thugs can intimidate people into voting for the union.

What could be more fundamental to free elections than secret ballots?

Knowing this is an Obama goal proves to me what he thinks about mob mentality. Its good and fine as long as the mob is on his side.

One man's mob is another man's constituency.

re: #163 nonic

Yeah, I think it was. Isn't that a hoot. LOL

Any opportunity I get, I like to mention that AARP is first and foremost an INSURANCE COMPANY. Look 'em up, even on Wikipedia. The org was founded by an insurance salesman to create an "in" with seniors, and they still get most of their vast revenue from selling insurance and other financial products to seniors. Which is WHY they back ObamaCare, because it will increase the market for their products.

How will a single-payor system increase their market?

re: #165 bbuddha

They don't want any debate on the issue, I think they tried to stack the townhalls with supporters and were annoyed that the other side showed up out of real concern

When was the last time you saw a genuine debate involving a congresscritter? They make speeches and statements and dodge questions when interviewed, but as for a real debate with a someone who holds opposite views? No way.

re: #156 FrogMarch

Well, not everyone is yelling and shouting. But some are. I wouldn't yell, but that's what people do when they are frustrated, angry and feel shut out.
Here's a thought - instead of accusing your own constituents of being a "rent-a-mob" by their own elected officials, kindly ask the man to take his turn.
This is just an excuse for the pussy democrats to shut the doors and hammer out a deal that most people do not want.

Funny - I still haven't heard much about he union members who beat up a black conservative and who were supposedly arrested.

I completely agree that the representatives running these meetings aren't controlling them well. I mentioned yesterday my own experience with some borderline rowdy city council meetings that took place on another matter several years ago. After one session featuring similar outbursts that wound up being canceled as a result of bad behavior, the meeting was rescheduled and heavily attended by local and state police. It opened with a warning - anyone interrupting a speaker or otherwise attempting to disrupt the proceedings would be physically removed immediately; a police van was prominently featured in the parking lot to act as a temporary holding cell. After the first guy was hauled off and the warning repeated, things got much more civil.

Another thing that has always been done at our meetings, regardless of topic: when a person is handed a microphone for public comment, they are asked to give their name and address. This at least identifies carpetbaggers for what they are; if they're giving false information, that will become readily apparent when the mandatory council videotapes are reviewed, if not sooner when a neighbor points out the subterfuge.

It's a reasonable response to the disruption of public discourse, and I would much rather see representatives emplace stern measures of control over these meetings to keep them civil than to see the meetings canceled or turned into by-invitation-only events.

IIRC, AARP was against privatizing social security at the same time they were selling mutual funds. But 3 Wood would be better to answer that.

re: #153 Pullus Iulius

re: #151 MandyManners

My point is somewhat different. I understandthe left-wing cozy relationship that the administration has with the unions and SEIU in particular. My concern is for the union workers. Once certified, they are forced to pay dues from their wages. Then the union isn't required to use those funds for the benefit of their workers but rather to make political points? Our law permits this?

re: #164 Mich-again

One of Obama's initiatives is to eliminate secret ballots at elections where employees decide whether or not they want union representation. Talk about promoting thuggery. There is only one reason to eliminate secret ballots in a union election. So the pro-union thugs can intimidate people into voting for the union.

What could be more fundamental to free elections than secret ballots?

Knowing this is an Obama goal proves to me what he thinks about mob mentality. Its good and fine as long as the mob is on his side.

Absolutely. Unions used to be necessary to help protect workers. Now, unions have become a one-sideed political mob whose primary objective is to take over privately run companies so that the union thugs can force employees to pay union dues and the business then must answer to the government/union. Why are unions so interested in taking over Wal-Mart? Democrats HAAATE Wal-mart. They despise a large profitable PRIVATE company can give out low cost health care.

re: #173 Cato

re: #151 MandyManners

My point is somewhat different. I understandthe left-wing cozy relationship that the administration has with the unions and SEIU in particular. My concern is for the union workers. Once certified, they are forced to pay dues from their wages. Then the union isn't required to use those funds for the benefit of their workers but rather to make political points? Our law permits this?

I think they do it with teachers unions as well.

Democrats are complaining loudly that the American people are stupid and should shut up about President Obama’s health care program, cap-and-tax program, spend us into deeper deficits program, tax away our incentives program, apologize to our enemies program, castigate our friends program, and all his other radical remakings of America. Democrats are moving from their virtual pogrom to annihilate us uncooperative American kulaks to the next step of more physical coercion by their SEIU thugs.

During the past week, I’ve had conversations with old friends – leftist, centrist, and conservative – with whom I experienced the political battles of the 1960’s. All of us have a similar take on what’s happening now, compared to then. Then, it was a challenge against authority primarily by the privileged young who didn’t want to serve in the war, which dissipated rapidly once the draft ended, while their ideologues took refuge in academia to rise to insulated tenure of attachment to their old slogans and some of their ilk to gerrymandered seniority in Congress. Obama was a tot then, but raised on their radical bromides. Now, it is the broader swath of working and middle class Americans, a far larger and more potent population, who are fed up and angry with being exploited and insulted by those who feel it their right and duty to impose their schemes to rearrange and endanger everyone else’s lives and weaken the America that sustains us. We all feel the potential for violence is high. Enough everyday Americans will defend themselves against thuggish attacks upon their right to speak out.

I wasn’t a proponent of street violence then, nor am I now. I abhor it. And, just let any one of the Democrat thugs try to physically attack me or silence me or anyone nearby and they better stand the f*ck by for a real thumping. At 61, I still fit in my Marine Corps uniform, and know well how to defend myself. I’m just one member of a rapidly expanding, reluctant force of ordinary Americans who will. Those who have spent their lives cloistered in ivy and Congress have never met our resistance before, are shocked, and are in for more rueful surprises if they keep on their vile attacks on our democracy, peace and prosperity.

From the always insightful, Maggie's Farm

re: #150 VioletTiger

IMO, the Dems and the media are making examples of the instances of bad behavior and making it seem like it's all bad behavior, or racist, or astroturf...anything but admit they they are overstepping and people finally woke up when they hit the right issue.

I agree entirely. The dems and media have succeeded in marginalizing the Tea Party protesters and now want to make sure they do the same to anyone who doesn't lap up the dull pap dished out at a Town Hall meeting.

Look what they've done to people who very simply would like to know some of the facts and see some of the documentation about the background of the most secretive and mysterious president the United States has ever had -- like HS records, SAT's, college records, how and why he transferred to NYU, LSAT, law school records, Illinois senatorial records, passport, medical records.

Nothing. We're not allowed to know any details of his past, and we're that B-word if we ask.

re: #164 Mich-again

Looking at Gaspard's history is amazing.

vice president of politics and legislation for Local 1199 SEIU United Healthcare Workers East

Have SEIU health-care workers been told that union members will have secured jobs under socialized medicine?

coordinated the volunteer efforts that sent hundreds of union members to Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana and other primary election states to campaign for Obama.

He helped send forth members to those states from other states, just as insurance companies and other organinzations are acused of doing now.

re: #171 SixDegrees

It's a reasonable response to the disruption of public discourse, and I would much rather see representatives emplace stern measures of control over these meetings to keep them civil than to see the meetings canceled or turned into by-invitation-only events.

I do not disagree. The representatives have a responsibility to gain control and not simply accuse people of being a "rent-a-mob". And I do agree that shouting out of turn and interrupting are counter-productive.

re: #158 nonic

Do you actually believe that the dems WANT to "debate" ObamaCare?!

Why do you think Obama and Pelosi were so HELL BENT on getting it passed before the reps had to go home and face their constituents?

Answer, please?

I've already addressed this, above. Several times. If your representatives aren't going to change their vote based on what you have to say, it's entirely possible that others in attendance at these meeting may, if presented with a cogent argument.

And as far as the Dems as a party goes, it's because of a large faction of Democrats that this bill hasn't already been rubber stamped and placed on the President's desk for signing. If this is cast as a purely partisan issue, the Republicans cannot possibly win. But there are conservative-minded Democrats, too. They're facing enormous pressure from their own party to toe the party line. Being yelled and spit at isn't going to sway them over to the opposition.

re: #142 Cato

Cato, you are asking valid questions.

As someone who will freely claim to be on the right side of politics, I can say my point of view could be skewed. But I'll add to it what I can.

Your second sentence is what I was questioning early on upon hearing about the incidents. How does this "international" group just happen upon all of these different town hall meetings? Do I think there is some type of effort by folks on the right to organize their side? Sure. To the extent you would be seeing the efforts to have so many SEIU members present? Not quite.

I will link to an article about exactly how much money they were responsible for donating the Obama campaign. Don't worry, it is not a right wing site. [Link: www.sacbee.com...]

Contrast that information, with who is getting appointments, and we see a pattern. [Link: blogs.wsj.com...]

As well, I know some folks here think people like me come down hard on groups such as ACORN who just do advocacy work for the regular working folk. I think they are dirty, extremely dirty. Once you start to dig just a little, a whiff of the smell that comes off the steaming pile is enough for me.

I will link to that dye in the wool right leaning site, NPR. [Link: www.npr.org...]

Listen, we all can have differences of opinion. When I told over & over again that a shit sandwich is a cheese steak, it does not wash with me.

re: #173 Cato

re: #151 MandyManners

My point is somewhat different. I understandthe left-wing cozy relationship that the administration has with the unions and SEIU in particular. My concern is for the union workers. Once certified, they are forced to pay dues from their wages. Then the union isn't required to use those funds for the benefit of their workers but rather to make political points? Our law permits this?

Surely there is a statutory formula governing what percentage a union may contribute to a candidate vs. must spend on the members.

re: #173 Cato

Our law permits this?

In practice, yes. How is this allowed? Well, unions contribute cash and shoe leather to political campaigns. You can probably fill in the rest...

I think, when we hear that Congressmen are not reading the bills they are openly trying to rush through there is going to be some fear on somebody's part, and I don't see that it has been demonstrated that it is entirely unwarranted. Congresspeople, who have staffs and are actually being paid to read it, don't, and even discuss voting on it without reading it.

To condescendingly dismiss those who show some of this fear at Town Hall meetings just makes it worse. It shows they think you don't matter to them. They are dismissing you. More fear, therefore more anger. If the plan is idiotic and counterproductive to the problem at hand, that just makes it worse. And you are supposed to be a fool because you haven't read it - but they haven't either.

I hear these generalities - "the system is broken." Oh, OK, I guess that is why some huge percentage of the people like their insurance. And most of them are insured.

The government should tend to the business of stopping fraud in existing systems. What, they think their new system won't have fraud? And genuine waste, that relates to non-life threatening issues which have other characteristics that make them unnecessary. Their new system is not going to have waste? Corruption? In something run by the government?

Other than that:
1. Find those without insurance and assign them to various insurance companies.
2. Funding can occur through 1040's, like the EIC, according to income.

If it's "too expensive" there are "50 ways". A few of them:
1. How many countries in the world? We are the one who has to spend billions with our military in 90 countries? They hate us?
2. Foreign aid - OK - not that much - but how many kids could be dianosed on time and treated. It's not nothing. (National Endowment on the Arts?)
3. Every dime we spend can have an explanation with it as to why it is more important than x # of peoples lives.
4. Our refusal to produce our own energy. Worried about pollution, global warming? OK. Lets kill all the children in this room (who will go without diagnosis and treatment) to "clean up" the planet.
5. The people on this forum alone could think of an actual fifty ways to save money. If nothing else, we could tack on a $2 charge to every ticket to every sports event, tax.
6. Explain to everyone - the other countries - "We're sorry, but people are dying here. Otherwise we'd love to help."

One thing that pisses me off: The Republicans don't address things like this until the electorate lose their marbles and elect the silly-ass government that they have now. Inoculate, you idiots. Don't just tell people "we can't afford it." What you can't afford is what is happening now.

SEIU contributions.
[Link: www.cnsnews.com...]

re: #179 FrogMarch

I do not disagree. The representatives have a responsibility to gain control and not simply accuse people of being a "rent-a-mob". And I do agree that shouting out of turn and interrupting are counter-productive.

If they really wanted to maintain control over the meetings, they'd have cops there to help, not union members.

re: #173 Cato

Then the union isn't required to use those funds for the benefit of their workers but rather to make political points? Our law permits this?

Here is how that works. (I know from a family member's own experience.) If a union member wishes that none of their dues are spent on political purposes they can file a form with their union. At which point the union will send them a form letter telling that union member that the union promises not to spend any of that person's dues on political contributions. There is no cash refund for the person who opts out. Its completely meaningless and doesn't change the union's budget for political activism one bit.

re: #170 Mich-again

When was the last time you saw a genuine debate involving a congresscritter? They make speeches and statements and dodge questions when interviewed, but as for a real debate with a someone who holds opposite views? No way.

too true, they won't even read a bill before voting, and they are proud of that!? It is time for real change, vote out ALL incumbents. Now that would send a message.

Can you just imagine what would have happened if George Bush had said this?

What a pompous, self-righteous, sanctimonious, vainglorious little prick. Look out Moneychangers! Here comes Lord Obama from on high to cleanse the temple! Shut up you evil Republicans, the financial crisis was all your fault and now only Obamanomics can repair all the damage you've done and save the country. We won!

Nevermind the extensive role of Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and the rest of the Democrats had in creating the global financial meltdown, by pushing relaxed lending standards through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, covering up problems at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and resisting Rebublican calls for regulation.

/you know, half of America didn't vote for this hopey changey, sweet smelling unicorn farts bull[expletive deleted]

re: #185 Cannadian Club Akbar

SEIU contributions.
[Link: www.cnsnews.com...]

$27,000,000.00. Wow. No wonder the union is looking for pay-back.

re: #182 MandyManners

There is and they have magical accountants.

re: #148 Erik The Red

Good Morning Lizards. A quiet Sunday morning I see. I am still mainlining caffeine, about to start getting ready for our first Mass in the new Parish.

Good Morning Padre.

re: #189 Killian Bundy

I don't know if you've seen this short but sweet declaration yet.

re: #186 MandyManners

If they really wanted to maintain control over the meetings, they'd have cops there to help, not union members.

An excellent suggestion. If those organizing the meetings aren't able to keep control over them, perhaps those in attendance could contact the state authorities prior to the meetings and request their presence.

re: #186 MandyManners

If they really wanted to maintain control over the meetings, they'd have cops there to help, not union members.

yeah. And the White House should never say things like "Punch back twice as hard". To union thugs - those are instructions.

re: #191 bbuddha

There is and they have magical accountants.

I suppose I'd be stupid to ask if unions pay taxes on their dues.

re: #194 SixDegrees

An excellent suggestion. If those organizing the meetings aren't able to keep control over them, perhaps those in attendance could contact the state authorities prior to the meetings and request their presence.

Precisely. That is the job of our public servants. That is not the job of citizens who have vested interests in the outcome.

re: #155 SixDegrees

Don't forget that a whole big lot of people LOVE the more messy news. In fact, some people, that's all they pay any attention to. Hence, the tabloids. And why the media splash it across the TV screen.

I can easily see that some people (specifically thinking of a former neighbor of mine), a video of a noisy Town Hall meeting would be the FIRST glimmer she's seen of discontent among the citizenry and would spur her to look into it a little more.

You know... it's happening. For good or for bad. To the benefit of this side or that. It's happening. Thinking about what it means and how it effects the big picture has some interest. But just claiming the whole thing is a "disgrace" and wanting to see it shut down is... pointless.

Well, criticizing does have some value -- to the dems and media who want to see dissent shut down.

re: #195 FrogMarch

yeah. And the White House should never say things like "Punch back twice as hard". To union thugs - those are instructions.

Just to make sure, Messina said this, not FCBBHO.

Georgia Democrat yells at local doctor over health care

Asking questions is considered 'Hi-jacking' the event.

Tensions are running so high at town hall meetings that Rep. David Scott, a Georgia Democrat, yelled at a local doctor concerned about health care after mistaking him for an "astroturf" political operative looking for a fight.

Mr. Scott became visibly agitated when one of his constituents, a practicing doctor, asked a few questions about health care reform during a town hall meeting. The meeting was held to discuss a road project, but was opened up for questions near the end. That's when Dr. David Hill stood up to speak.

Dr. Hill asked Mr. Scott why he was going to vote for a health care plan similar to that implemented in Massachusetts "that is shown not to work" and if he supported a government-provided health care insurance option.

The congressman replied by accusing the doctor of "hijacking" his event.

Pussy democrat congressman.

re: #142 Cato

Service Employees International Union (SEIU): In NYC, their local affiliate, Local 1199, represents the hospital workers. Not doctors and nurses, but those below them in the pecking order. The union is notorious for using its large membership and significant funding to lobby elected officials. They have gained huge political power by essentially taking over the New York State Legislature, using large contributions and deploying manpower for candidates on election day. Their political power means that the state Medicaid program is now a jobs program for SEIU having little to do with health care for the poor. Medicaid now consumes more than a third of the entire New York state budget, driving the state towards bankruptcy.

What's unusual in New York is that the SEIU has supported both Democrats and Republicans, successfully buying several GOP State Senators with large contributions. Former GOP Governor George Pataki sold out to the SEIU, as did several other prominent statewide Republicans. Their treachery cost state taxpayers and other billions. The N.Y. hospital association now is controlled by SEIU, as is the state medical society. It's really frightening.

re: #196 MandyManners

I suppose I'd be stupid to ask if unions pay taxes on their dues.

sorry, I don't know the answer to that. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that they don't.

re: #199 MandyManners

Just to make sure, Messina said this, not FCBBHO.

I know, Mandy. That's why I said the 'White House'. Messina works there.

re: #173 Cato

I understand what you were driving at now.

Yes, you would think there is a major conflict of interest going on here. The very labor laws you reference, as you know, were the aspirations of those who organized many years ago. It was an effort to fight back against corruption, and the show fits very nicely on the other foot.

I can only speak for myself, but I think other folks out there feel the same way, is that we expect a little nefarious activity. Both sides. Paybacks, inside jobs, etc. It is not right, but this is reality, and it is going to happen.

What we would like to think, is the bottom line in all of it, is the law. The law levels the playing field for everyone. It is that last bastion of equality that is not influenced, and what is right, has a genuine opportunity to prevail given sunlight.

Anymore, I don't know if that is the case.

re: #204 formercorpsman

I understand what you were driving at now.

Yes, you would think there is a major conflict of interest going on here. The very labor laws you reference, as you know, were the aspirations of those who organized many years ago. It was an effort to fight back against corruption, and the show shoe fits very nicely on the other foot.

I can only speak for myself, but I think other folks out there feel the same way, is that we expect a little nefarious activity. Both sides. Paybacks, inside jobs, etc. It is not right, but this is reality, and it is going to happen.

What we would like to think, is the bottom line in all of it, is the law. The law levels the playing field for everyone. It is that last bastion of equality that is not influenced, and what is right, has a genuine opportunity to prevail given sunlight.

Anymore, I don't know if that is the case.

gotta go, breakfast is almost ready.

re: #200 FrogMarch

Georgia Democrat yells at local doctor over health care

Asking questions is considered 'Hi-jacking' the event.

Pussy democrat congressman.

Scott was stupid to think that the questions in that meeting would hew only to questions about a road project. Reporters covering press conferences dedicated to one issue frequently ask questions about other issues. I've never seen an elected official scream or otherwise verbally abuse those reporters.

re: #196 MandyManners

I suppose I'd be stupid to ask if unions pay taxes on their dues.

Union dues are an itemized deduction when it comes to federal taxes.

Given their track record in New York, where they turned Medicaid into an enormous jobs program for SEIU members, SEIU's support for Obamacare is understandable: Obama has promised SEIU that the national healthcare system will operate the same way, and will be unionized.

That's worth putting on a purple SEIU shirt, and busting some Tea Party heads at a Town Hall meeting, isn't it?

re: #202 bbuddha

sorry, I don't know the answer to that. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that they don't.

Are unions treated as non-profit entities?

re: #207 MandyManners

I've never seen an elected official scream or otherwise verbally abuse those reporters.

heh. I remember Clinton yelling at Brit Hume when Hume (he had the WH beat) asked a question about Ruth Bader Ginsberg.

morning lizardia

re: #203 FrogMarch

I know, Mandy. That's why I said the 'White House'. Messina works there.

I figured you did but, someone reading here might not. I didn't mean to imply anything other than that--it was poor wrting from me.

re: #208 Mich-again

Union dues are an itemized deduction when it comes to federal taxes.

Like a charity, huh?

re: #207 MandyManners

Scott was stupid to think that the questions in that meeting would hew only to questions about a road project. Reporters covering press conferences dedicated to one issue frequently ask questions about other issues. I've never seen an elected official scream or otherwise verbally abuse those reporters.

The official White House marching orders were to punch back. The democrats do not want to debate or answer questions. The time for that has come and gone. "The debate is over".

re: #211 wahabicorridor

heh. I remember Clinton yelling at Brit Hume when Hume (he had the WH beat) asked a question about Ruth Bader Ginsberg.

morning lizardia

That stirs a niggling memory.

Here's something to think about, vis a vis an alternative to what's now being proposed:

Medicare currently covers about 35 million people. According to the Dems, there are a roughly equal number of uninsured people in the country - probably a gross exaggeration, but let's run with that. What this means is that simply by doubling the size of the Medicare program, universal coverage could become a reality.

Obviously, Medicare has very serious problems at the moment. But it seems far better to fix those and expand an existing program than to dismantle the entire health care financing apparatus for the whole country and bring it under government control. Further changes to Medicare would be required to accommodate rapid enrollment - in the case of unemployment, for example - but most would relate to streamlining bureaucratic bloat, something that needs to be addressed anyway.

Analogy - our 25-year-old Kitchenaid mixer, built like a tank and utterly dependable, started making a horrid squealing noise just after the holidays. Our options were to buy a new mixer, which would cost around $500 for a comparable model, or locate a Kitchenaid repair facility and get our old one fixed. The second option turned up a place just down the street, and the cost to repair it - replace a bearing, and lube the whole thing up since it was already open - $50. Sometimes you can just fix what you already have for a whole lot less than what a brand new, shiny replacement would run.

(I could keep going - the modern versions suck in comparison to their older counterparts - but I think this makes my point.)

re: #214 FrogMarch

The official White House marching orders were to punch back. The democrats do not want to debate or answer questions. The time for that has come and gone. "The debate is over".

Only in their fevered minds.

re: #212 MandyManners

I figured you did but, someone reading here might not. I didn't mean to imply anything other than that--it was poor wrting from me.

Not poor writing at all... It was a simple clarification.

re: #218 FrogMarch

Not poor writing at all... It was a simple clarification.

What's Messina's background? Didn't he start in Montana?

On political use of union dues:

[Link: www.effwa.org...]

re: #169 MandyManners

How will a single-payor system increase their market?

I read (in the NYT, I think) that the big insurance companies cut a deal with Obama to back his "reform" as long as they got the universal mandate and something else (sorry, it's not on the tip of my mind). AARP is a big insurance company.

Plus, with Medicare cutbacks, seniors will need more in Medigap insurance. Who they gonna turn to?

From the White House page:

Jim Messina is Deputy Chief of Staff to President Barack H. Obama. He previously served as Director of Personnel for the Obama-Biden Presidential Transition and as national chief of staff for Obama for America.

Messina joined the Obama campaign from the office of U.S. Senator Max Baucus (D-MT), where he was chief of staff. He previously held the same position for U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND) and U.S. Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY).

He has overseen and consulted on political campaigns across the country, from Alaska to New York. He is a graduate of the University of Montana and attended high school in Boise, Idaho.

re: #200 FrogMarch

Georgia Democrat yells at local doctor over health care

Asking questions is considered 'Hi-jacking' the event.

Pussy democrat congressman.

I saw this upthread; it's the perfect model for how to behave at these meetings, and how to turn the lunacy to our advantage before discourse is completely shut down.

re 221

I'd bet you anything that as we speak, the insurance companies, including AARP, are working on plans and ads for their ObamaGap policies.

re: #221 nonic

I read (in the NYT, I think) that the big insurance companies cut a deal with Obama to back his "reform" as long as they got the universal mandate and something else (sorry, it's not on the tip of my mind). AARP is a big insurance company.

Plus, with Medicare cutbacks, seniors will need more in Medigap insurance. Who they gonna turn to?

It sure ain't Ghost Busters.

Seriously, remember how FCBBHO said during the campaign that all of that part of the debate would be open, even televised? Instead, legions of insurance and medical muckety-mucks had closed-door meetings at the White House.

Catch you later Lizards. Off to Mass and then to do something fun (and no doubt expensive) with the family. Stay Scaly.

re: #216 SixDegrees

There's no doubt Medicare is careening towards bankruptcy. Obama's solution will make things worse, dragging down the entire U.S. economy. The reason is explained by Regina Hertzlinger, a health care economist at Harvard here:

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

re: #223 SixDegrees

I saw this upthread; it's the perfect model for how to behave at these meetings, and how to turn the lunacy to our advantage before discourse is completely shut down.

Lucky for the dems - the rent-a-mob meme sort of worked. So now when anyone asks a calm question, the dems can simply go ape-shit and accuse that person of hi-jacking.

re: #219 MandyManners

What's Messina's background? Didn't he start in Montana?

I'd have to google. I don't really know.

Gotta' get The Kid ready for church. brb

bbiab - gotta git coffee and read the Sunday paper.

Morning all.

BHO still bustin' heads?

Morning Lizards! On the continued discussion of the townhall meetings and the whole debate on "astroturfing". I like the way the dems and the MSM have changed the subject (just like they do with most losing debates) to the "mobs" and not that the anger and genuine disdain is real and sometimes hard to control when faced with the audacity of what the consequences will be for all of us if they get this stupid bill passed.

to say write your congress person doesnt work so well...mine has ignored all of my emails. I think he is hiding under his desk!

The word "astroturfing" is being completely misused in this situation. Astroturfing is when an organization fabricates "evidence" of grass roots support in order to shape policies.

It is delusional to think the rowdy people who are showing up at the town hall meetings to get in their congresscritters mug are somehow "agent provocateurs" sent by shadowy secret organizations in an "astroturfing" campaign and that the grass roots support is a mirage.

That analysis is completely wrong.

re: #213 MandyManners

Like a charity, huh?

Yes. Same form.

Went to Dr this morning for the back problem that started a week or so ago, but got slam ugly yesterday. 15.00 co-pay. Was out in 10 minutes.

Didn't want to go, wife made me. Doc told me to take ibuprofen. Was funny, reminded me of:

Patient: Dr.? What do I do for a sprained ankle?
Dr.: Limp.

Well, it was un-necessary use of our healthcare system.

I think I'm on Obama's side now.

re: #173 Cato

I've got a question. The other day I came across a reference to "Barack Obama's political arm." I was like, what?!

It came up with the question of whether the names and e-mails of dissidents collected from the "fishy / flag" program at the WH would go to "Barack Obama's political arm.

I followed the link and was taken to "Organizing for America" at [Link: www.barackobama.com...]

The man IS STILL RUNNING A PARTISAN CAMPAIGN!

Excuse me, but isn't the president of the United States supposed to be representing and working for ALL Americans, not just his donors, supporters, and volunteers?

Incidentally, the question about the "enemies list" was just fluffed off by Gibbs. No connection, no, no, of course not.

Huh uh.

re: #237 nonic

The man IS STILL RUNNING A PARTISAN CAMPAIGN!

Yeah, well, I don't think there's ever been a first term president that didn't prepare to run for a second. That's just the nature of the beast.

todays Day by Day cartoon

re: #228 FrogMarch

Lucky for the dems - the rent-a-mob meme sort of worked. So now when anyone asks a calm question, the dems can simply go ape-shit and accuse that person of hi-jacking.

Correct. But that sort of overreaction is nicely exposed in this piece. More like it would be very helpful.

You gotta love AMC... Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

Good morning y'all - from a warm (78 degrees, going up to 96 today and 98 tomorrow) bright and sunny Charlotte!
And hey, FBV - Butch and Sundance is one of my top 10 favorite movies and one of my top three favorite westerns!

I'm doing ok (as is mom) and hope all y'all are too!

Even though it's a bit dated, this is a decent discussion of Communications Workers of America v. Beck, the U.S. Supreme Court case holding that a labor union cannot use a member's dues for political purposes without the consent of the member:

[Link: www.cato.org...]

re: #234 Mich-again

The word "astroturfing" is being completely misused in this situation. Astroturfing is when an organization fabricates "evidence" of grass roots support in order to shape policies.

It is delusional to think the rowdy people who are showing up at the town hall meetings to get in their congresscritters mug are somehow "agent provocateurs" sent by shadowy secret organizations in an "astroturfing" campaign and that the grass roots support is a mirage.

That analysis is completely wrong.

It's wrong but, that's the message from the DNC and MFM.

re: #242 realwest

morning real! It's going up to 96 and humid today, 98 and more humid tomorrow here.

blech.

re: #197 MandyManners

Precisely. That is the job of our public servants. That is not the job of citizens who have vested interests in the outcome.

Excellent point

I wish Brit Hume was on the all star panel on FNS this morning. we need his "straight to the point..no BS" comments.

re: #235 Mich-again

Yes. Same form.

So someone can deduct her dues to the union as well as her donation to the DNC yet, the money goes to the same cause.

Union abuses.

My ex-husband is a college professor. He was never interested in belonging to the union and doesn't -- BUT state law requires that he pay the dues anyway, even without belonging, because "he gets the benefits of collective bargaining regardless."

re: #245 wahabicorridor
Hi wahabi! Well I don't THINK we're supposed to get high humidity, but I'm still gonna lay out under the A/C unit today - that'll chill AND dry out the air just in case!
How are you doing today?

re: #246 reine.de.tout

Excellent point

And, a very telling one.

re: #242 realwest

Good morning y'all - from a warm (78 degrees, going up to 96 today and 98 tomorrow) bright and sunny Charlotte!

Morning {real}! Glad to see you this morning. Did you get out in that heat and humity yesterday?

re: #248 MandyManners

So someone can deduct her dues to the union as well as her donation to the DNC yet, the money goes to the same cause.

Political contributions are not deductible on the Federal form.. unless of course they are hidden within your union dues.

re: #249 nonic

Union abuses.

My ex-husband is a college professor. He was never interested in belonging to the union and doesn't -- BUT state law requires that he pay the dues anyway, even without belonging, because "he gets the benefits of collective bargaining regardless."

I can see the logic behind that.

re: #253 Mich-again

Political contributions are not deductible on the Federal form.. unless of course they are hidden within your union dues.

Eep. I'd forgotten that.

Hey! Did you know the CIA has a web site where you can read declassified stuff?

re: #207 MandyManners

Scott was stupid to think that the questions in that meeting would hew only to questions about a road project. Reporters covering press conferences dedicated to one issue frequently ask questions about other issues. I've never seen an elected official scream or otherwise verbally abuse those reporters.

Also, in an interview with the doctor, he said that he had called Scott's office repeatedly to find out about a planned healthcare forum. Scott plans none -- no forum to discuss healthcare. PLUS, at the end of the road project meeting, the questioning was specifically opened to questions on any topic. So, the doc (and another person) asked about health care.

re: #249 nonic Hi nonic, hope you're doing ok today!
And I was in the same position your ex is in - pay union "dues" even though I wasn't a member of the union but I did indeed get the benefits of being in the union - if they got higher pay or whatever, so did I.
BUT I was free to cross picket lines that the Union put up! If a union guy crossed the picket line he/she was gonna hear about it from the big union (and it was big - even though we were adjunct professors, the undergrad adjuncts outnumbered us graduate adjunct 3-1 and THEY voted for the UAW). Didn't bother them that the UAW had NEVER BEFORE represented teachers or professors anywhere at anytime, they were just perceived as being tough!

I've never, not once, paid a nickel to a union. ('Ceptin Federal Taxes and the like)...