Palin Calls for Restraint at Town Halls

Politics • Views: 3,043

Quite a few readers were upset with me for criticizing the mob-like behavior of many town hall demonstrators. Some denied that this behavior even happened at all, accusing the media (or me) of exaggerating and lying about it.

If Sarah Palin were to come out with a statement asking the demonstrators to refrain from intimidation and harassment, would that change your mind? Sarah Palin Notes | Facebook.

There are many disturbing details in the current bill that Washington is trying to rush through Congress, but we must stick to a discussion of the issues and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harassment. Such tactics diminish our nation’s civil discourse which we need now more than ever because the fine print in this outrageous health care proposal must be understood clearly and not get lost in conscientious voters’ passion to want to make elected officials hear what we are saying. Let’s not give the proponents of nationalized health care any reason to criticize us.

Kudos to Palin for speaking out against irresponsible behavior, but how responsible was it when she claimed that her parents and children were going to be forced to “stand in front of Obama’s death panel?”

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1258 comments
1 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:38:38am
Quite a few readers were upset with me for criticizing the mob-like behavior of many town hall demonstrators. Some denied that this behavior even really happened, accusing the media of exaggerating and lying about it.

If Sarah Palin were to come out with a statement asking the demonstrators to refrain from intimidation and harassment, would that change your mind?

No. I don't agree with Palin. The progressives will criticize conservative no matter what we do or say, short of us totally disappearing.

Speak out.

2 cronus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:38:59am

No need to invoke "death panels" or any other alarmist strawmen. CBO says that key components of current reform proposals don't cut costs.

3 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:39:31am

So I'm confused now, is dissent patriotic or is it un-American now? More importantly, is their anyways this can be blamed on the failed policies of Obama's predecessor?

4 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:39:58am

Does this make her a RINO?

5 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:40:18am

re: #2 cronus

No need to invoke "death panels" or any other alarmist strawmen. CBO says that key components of current reform proposals don't cut costs.

Obamacare has never been about cutting costs.

6 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:41:27am

re: #2 cronus

No need to invoke "death panels" or any other alarmist strawmen. CBO says that key components of current reform proposals don't cut costs.

That's the point. There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize nationalized health care without absurd exaggerations like "death panels."

7 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:41:31am
8 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:41:37am

Yes, people should speak out, but let's try to keep it civil. If there's going to be violence, let the libs incite it.

9 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:42:10am

I've been very angry about this business of people pounding on doors and shouting at town halls.

I understand the frustration with how politicians are not answering questions - mostly because they can't - and the feeling that the decisions are being rammed through over our objections. But I won't have anything to do with mob action.

This is not the way Americans should behave.

10 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:42:21am

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

No. I don't agree with Palin. The progressives will criticize conservative no matter what we do or say, short of us totally disappearing.

Speak out.

OK, that's one vote in favor of intimidation and harassment.

11 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:43:12am

If I ever attend a town hall meeting or another tea party I shall try to not ram my face into any socialist fists.

12 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:44:00am

re: #11 The Other Les

If I ever attend a town hall meeting or another tea party I shall try to not ram my face into any socialist fists.

Right neighbourly of ya.

13 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:44:08am

The Campaign Stop over at NRO has a post about a town hall that went swimmingly.

Initially Massa’s staff decided to move a health care town hall meeting from Mendon Town Hall to the Mendon Community Center to accommodate more constituents. And that venue, with a capacity of around 100, proved nowhere near big enough either: About 500 people gathered to hear the congressman’s thoughts on health care reform, forcing a move to a shelter . . .

The meeting focused on health care reform and the bill, with constituents listening to Massa’s views and asking questions.

“I actually have read this bill,” Massa said, earning cheers from the crowd — many seemed delighted when he announced, “If I had to vote today on this document, I would not vote for it.”


He's read the bill, he allowed his constituents to voice their concerns, and there was no shouting. It's not that hard to prevent an ugly scene.

14 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:44:13am

re: #10 Charles

OK, that's one vote in favor of intimidation and harassment.

It's one vote, my vote, for freedom of speech. I don't want to see anyone hurt, or anyone pushed around, or anyone bullied, but, I don't mind taking the advice of our Messiah President and "get in their faces."

15 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:44:17am

re: #8 Ward Cleaver

Yes, people should speak out, but let's try to keep it civil. If there's going to be violence, let the libs incite it.

The problem is, how can anyone tell?

No one who tried to strike me would be allowed to. But what I did would be obvious, the first punch, not. So, who did what to whom, when?

16 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:44:43am

I think this is a "cake and eat it too" retraction without a retraction. Sarah is right in this, but it comes on the heels of a statement that's bound to inspire anger at townhalls.

17 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:44:51am

Well, they are "un-American" after all, just ask Nancy. We the People should just shut up and take our "medicine", literally.


/

18 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:45:23am

re: #10 Charles

OK, that's one vote in favor of intimidation and harassment.

He said "Speak out." That doesn't sound like intimidation and harassment to me.

19 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:45:53am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

It's one vote, my vote, for freedom of speech. I don't want to see anyone hurt, or anyone pushed around, or anyone bullied, but, I don't mind taking the advice of our Messiah President and "get in their faces."

And as an addendum to my remark above, I also am taking the lead from the Only One, President Barry Obama and "I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

This guy is a genius.

20 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:45:56am

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

The progressives will criticize conservative no matter what we do or say, short of us totally disappearing.

Well that's certainly true. If one protester emails one of his friends and says "there's a town hall meeting on Thursday, let's go to it," Pelosi and her thugs will accuse them of "astroturfing" as part of a vast right-wing conspiracy.

But that's no reason to start shouting people down and preventing discussion. Show up, speak out, and protest peacefully and respectuflly.

I have no idea how many of the conservative protesters have been resorting to intimidation. It's somewhere between 1% and 99%. It should be 0%.

21 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:46:53am

re: #20 Last Mohican

Well that's certainly true. If one protester emails one of his friends and says "there's a town hall meeting on Thursday, let's go to it," Pelosi and her thugs will accuse them of "astroturfing" as part of a vast right-wing conspiracy.

But that's no reason to start shouting people down and preventing discussion. Show up, speak out, and protest peacefully and respectuflly.

I have no idea how many of the conservative protesters have been resorting to intimidation. It's somewhere between 1% and 99%. It should be 0%.

We should take the advice of our President Obama... "get in their faces" and "I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking"

22 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:47:23am

Interesting Question.

23 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:47:29am

re: #6 Charles

That's the point. There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize nationalized health care without absurd exaggerations like "death panels."

"Death panels" is way over the top, but there are real worries that elderly people will feel pressured to agree to assisted suicide rather than consume healthcare dollars, like has happened in Oregon. The bill also apparently is open to groups like "Compassion & Choices", formerly the Hemlock Society, to work under government contracts to offer "end-of-life counseling". That scares me.

24 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:48:22am

re: #4 Sharmuta

Does this make her a RINO?

I think this makes her a sensible politician. She can see the writing on the wall. She knows if these protests turn violent and if the protesters are the one's who start it, then the game is over.

Not backing her earlier language though. That was a little too much shock and awe stuff for me. Made her sound hysterical.

25 DistantThunder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:48:29am

The Democrats have just announced a "war" room. Let's call the "death Panel" the "Pain Panel."

This week, I ended up in the emergency room when I reinjured my damaged cervical disk. Ten weeks ago, my doctor said, "You need an MRI, but you have horrible insurance." I have NJ state health insurance, because the state o fNJ has over regulated the insurance they ALLOW people to buy in NJ. I wanted to buy my university alumni insurance, but it is only available in 48 states: Not NJ nor NY.

When we first request the MRI, and explained all the symptoms that clearly indicate disk, we were denied. So we appealed. The appeal board reps called my doctor and said they NEVER approve an MRI unless the patient has been under treatment for 8 weeks, REGARDLESS of the symptoms.

They wanted to give me physical therapy for 8 weeks. Fine. Guess what. You can't get through on the phone line through to even set up the appointment. So call it the PAIN PANEL because they demand people suffer in pain according to their formulas - NOT the doctor's recommendation.

Also, Mr DT was going to have to wait until NOVember for an appointment for a serious condition. So we went BLACK MARKET: He called a friend who is a doctor in another state, to call him in a prescription.

Incidentally, My mentally disabled and handicapped sister in law died in January. She suffered from severe congestive heart failure. She was hospitalized for 3 months, and then sent home once she was stable. She lived another 9 months. Now had her care been rationed, like it is in England and Canada - the panel making the decision would have been a DEATH Panel.

26 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:48:54am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

It's one vote, my vote, for freedom of speech. I don't want to see anyone hurt, or anyone pushed around, or anyone bullied, but, I don't mind taking the advice of our Messiah President and "get in their faces."

If you thought what he said was wrong, than you're just escalating tensions. This is childish and all together the wrong approach to take.

27 deadbackpacker  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:49:12am

Will anyone on the left tell the thugs from SEIU, Moveon.org, or Acorn to moderate their behavior? Judging by their behavior the last eight plus years, I would have to say no. Besides the Speaker of the House of Representatives say's anyone who disagrees with them and says so is UN- American. How are the people supposed to react?

28 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:49:25am

re: #19 Walter L. Newton

And as an addendum to my remark above, I also am taking the lead from the Only One, President Barry Obama and "I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."
.

The use of intimidation and frank violence in the suppression of opposing ideas has been a common practice of the American Left for years now. And certainly, Obama's statements about "getting in people's faces," "bringing a gun when they bring a knife," and "I don't want them to do a lot of talking" is an encouragement to do more of the same.

It's still no reason for the dissenters to resort to intimidation. I think the right thing to do is to bring a sign, and a pamphlet, and a video camera.

29 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:49:33am

re: #13 doppelganglander

The Campaign Stop over at NRO has a post about a town hall that went swimmingly.


He's read the bill, he allowed his constituents to voice their concerns, and there was no shouting. It's not that hard to prevent an ugly scene.

Gus also posted a decent townhall in the overnight thread. The Dem Congressman's response was heartening.

30 badger1970  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:49:54am

Criticizing a bad idea by saying "it's a bad idea" isn't going to garnish a lot of press. Saying "death panel" was an extreme interpretation of the perceived end of life counseling in the health care bill.

The opponents of this bill were going to get bad press no matter how they acted at the townhall meetings. "How dare they criticize something good for them". *pssst, not all of them were Republican agitators*

31 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:50:25am

Sarah Palin makes a good point. There is a lot of justified anger out there over this proposed fiasco, but the protestors unlike the Left should be respectful, at least don't shout down speakers.
However, I don't think that is the story. SEIU thugs are unleashed with people being roughed up & the protestors are a mob?

32 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:50:47am

I am all for restraint in protest but it is frustrating to see thugs beating on peaceful protesters with nary a peep of outrage from Pelosi.

Here in GA one of our esteemed (D) congressmen accused a Doctor with questions of being part of an astroturfing movement. I smell preemptive outrage on the part of the Dems.

What's next? "Conservative Protesters Ruin Union Volunteers Shoes With Their Blood"

33 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:51:00am

re: #13 doppelganglander

campaignspot.nationalreview.com...]>
He's read the bill, he allowed his constituents to voice their concerns, and there was no shouting. It's not that hard to prevent an ugly scene.

You're presenting this as if it is the congressman's fault that these town halls have grown ugly.

This is the fault of the organizers that are inciting people to gather at these town halls and disrupt them AND the fault of the people that follow the directions of these organizers.

34 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:51:25am

re: #21 Walter L. Newton

We should take the advice of our President Obama... "get in their faces" and "I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking"

Barry believes in the Chicago Way.

35 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:51:50am

re: #26 Sharmuta

If you thought what he said was wrong, than you're just escalating tensions. This is childish and all together the wrong approach to take.

I'm suggesting that we take the lead from our beloved leader. It seems that we can find enough advice from the progressive socialist on how to protest, on how to hold public meetings and on how to effectively use our freedom of speech.

Do you think what he said was wrong? Apparently I don't.

36 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:51:57am

re: #29 Silvergirl

Gus also posted a decent townhall in the overnight thread. The Dem Congressman's response was heartening.

Excellent. It seems some of them are getting the message that the opponents of the bill are just regular people who want to express their opinion.

37 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:52:21am

The mob mentality is never a good way to win an argument. The other side will dig in even harder. We should just let the Dems hang themselves with their own rope with this one. Let them speak, let them attempt to defend this.

The one thing we should not do is roll over and let them have their way with the society...

The entire process of this Healthcare bill stinks to high heaven. The secrecy, the haste, the last minute adding in of bits to placate special interests...this entire bill is one of the largest pieces of crap I have ever read. If the Dems past this bill, they will be out of power by 2012.

This is one instance where a healthy debate is needed. All sides need to input on this. Something as personal as Healthcare should not be handled behind the closed doors of the White House or in the Capital with only one party writing it and passing it. If you have the votes, Nancy, Harry and Barry...go ahead...it will be yours to deal with...you will own it and you will hear the backlash of the voters too.

38 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:52:27am

re: #30 badger1970

Criticizing a bad idea by saying "it's a bad idea" isn't going to garnish a lot of press. Saying "death panel" was an extreme interpretation of the perceived end of life counseling in the health care bill.

Indeed. And it made her look like an extremist.

39 Gus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:52:35am

I think it's a matter of social standards. If you go to a town hall meeting you are expected to present your questions and concerns in a civil manner. Regardless of which side you are on. Even though I don't believe that it is as rampant as the MSM and the DNC would have us believe whatever altercations that may take place will only result in a negative publicity for said group.

Like they say, you can attract more bees with honey.

40 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:52:53am

The Single payer system is not even on the table. It's looking increasingly likely that the public option will be taken out of the bill thanks to the blue dogs, not the hysterical Republicans.
Disrupting these town hall meetings and death threats is the most repulsive thing I've seen in politics recently. Conservatives should be ashamed.

41 Fast Eddie  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:53:02am

When gov't folks start talking about taking into consideration a person's "contribution to society" when deciding on what health care they will be allowed to receive, then reasonable people will probably starting thinking dark thoughts about where this thing is going.

42 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:53:07am

re: #18 doppelganglander

He said "Speak out." That doesn't sound like intimidation and harassment to me.

With any context you can understand that "speak out" is code for "disrupt the normal discourse".

Since no one is preventing people from talking except those that are shouting down the speakers at these events, it is reasonable to assume he is advocating the continued disruption.

43 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:53:24am

re: #24 WinterCat

I think this makes her a sensible politician. She can see the writing on the wall. She knows if these protests turn violent and if the protesters are the one's who start it, then the game is over.

Not backing her earlier language though. That was a little too much shock and awe stuff for me. Made her sound hysterical.

I don't stand behind Palin's earlier statements. Yet I will not gang on up her and say she was exploiting her child (not that you did). A parent of a special needs child feels these things more deeply knowing their child could stand to lose in a system not looking out for their best interests. She said in the McCain campaign that the special needs parents would have someone to fight for them. I look at her remarks as her attempt to do that, and I give her a lot of slack.

44 debutaunt  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:53:36am

re: #23 Ward Cleaver

"Death panels" is way over the top, but there are real worries that elderly people will feel pressured to agree to assisted suicide rather than consume healthcare dollars, like has happened in Oregon. The bill also apparently is open to groups like "Compassion & Choices", formerly the Hemlock Society, to work under government contracts to offer "end-of-life counseling". That scares me.

The term insurable interest seems to cover it for me. My doctor and my family have the most interest in my health. Those who have the opposite insurable interest are concerned about something else.

45 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:00am

re: #36 doppelganglander

Excellent. It seems some of them are getting the message that the opponents of the bill are just regular people who want to express their opinion.

And here is how AP describes that calm meeting...

"Rep. Polis mobbed during health care meeting"

Which of course, never happened, it didn't even happen in the attending article. Read it... dishonest headlines from the progressive socialist AP.

[Link: www.denverpost.com...]

46 LionofDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:05am

Good For Sarah. However, if intimidation is the issue, why are the dems calling out the unions? Why has Obama told his minions to 'get in their faces' and the Dems. have told their activists to "fight back twice as hard."
There is an order of magnitude difference between grandma shouting at a pompous, arrogant politician and a union thug menacing and manhandling senior citizens, or citizens of any stripe for that matter.

47 thatemailname  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:06am

So now we'll the see the Left start quoting Sarah Palin, the person they've held up for so long as brilliant, intelligent, and always correct?

What a joke.

48 cronus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:15am

Speaking of strawmen, if I hear supporters of the current "reform" bills invoke the lower cost of other countries' care one more time I'm going to rip my hair out. Global health care innovation is almost completely subsidized by the US - the only county paying something like the market cost for health care products and services.

49 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:16am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

The Single payer system is not even on the table. It's looking increasingly likely that the public option will be taken out of the bill thanks to the blue dogs, not the hysterical Republicans.
Disrupting these town hall meetings and death threats is the most repulsive thing I've seen in politics recently. Conservatives should be ashamed.

I've seen worse and so have you...please

50 StillAMarine  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:21am

Yes, I was dismayed to see conservatives acting like leftists, and while not making excuses for that kind of behavior, their frustration is understandable. My dismay was also tempered by seeing the leftists being smacked with their own methods.
Of course the hypocritical MSM is swift to tar and feather frustrated conservatives, and decrying the fact that they are organized. Now, who is the "community organizer?" And were not the massive leftist protests against the war organized? The sheer hypocrisy of the MSM astounds me.

51 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:28am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

The Single payer system is not even on the table. It's looking increasingly likely that the public option will be taken out of the bill thanks to the blue dogs, not the hysterical Republicans.
Disrupting these town hall meetings and death threats is the most repulsive thing I've seen in politics recently. Conservatives should be ashamed.

LOL.

52 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:49am

re: #18 doppelganglander

He said "Speak out." That doesn't sound like intimidation and harassment to me.

The exchange was:

If Sarah Palin were to come out with a statement asking the demonstrators to refrain from intimidation and harassment, would that change your mind?

No. I don't agree with Palin.

Looks like a vote for intimidation and harassment to me.

53 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:56am

re: #31 opnion

Sarah Palin makes a good point. There is a lot of justified anger out there over this proposed fiasco, but the protestors unlike the Left should be respectful, at least don't shout down speakers.
However, I don't think that is the story. SEIU thugs are unleashed with people being roughed up & the protestors are a mob?

I am fascinated by how hard it is to disentangle what actually happened from the drum-beat of "Republican rent-a-mob".

54 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:55:08am

What works for the left does not work for the right, and everyone should realize that by now. Our only hope of regaining near parity or power is to appear as the adults in this chaos. Mau Mauing meetings doesn't make us adult, it makes us repulsive.
The biggest part of our constituency that we need to win back are seniors and suburban families. People watching the youtube vids aren't going to think a good example is being set for their children, people watching the vids aren't going to change their minds based on chanting and raving - the only face we are getting in with this theater is our own.

55 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:55:38am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

The Single payer system is not even on the table. It's looking increasingly likely that the public option will be taken out of the bill thanks to the blue dogs, not the hysterical Republicans.
Disrupting these town hall meetings and death threats is the most repulsive thing I've seen in politics recently. Conservatives should be ashamed.

Man if this is the most repulsive thing that you have seen in politics recently, you have not been paying attention to Letist tactics.

56 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:55:47am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

The Single payer system is not even on the table. It's looking increasingly likely that the public option will be taken out of the bill thanks to the blue dogs, not the hysterical Republicans.
Disrupting these town hall meetings and death threats is the most repulsive thing I've seen in politics recently. Conservatives should be ashamed.

It would stay in there if the Republicans weren't in concert with the Blue Dogs in their opposition of it

57 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:56:18am

re: #54 Thanos

What works for the left does not work for the right, and everyone should realize that by now. Our only hope of regaining near parity or power is to appear as the adults in this chaos. Mau Mauing meetings doesn't make us adult, it makes us repulsive.
The biggest part of our constituency that we need to win back are seniors and suburban families. People watching the youtube vids aren't going to think a good example is being set for their children, people watching the vids aren't going to change their minds based on chanting and raving - the only face we are getting in with this theater is our own.

From the looks of things the seniors and suburban families are the ones screaming at the politicians the loudest.

58 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:56:39am

re: #33 keithgabryelski

You're presenting this as if it is the congressman's fault that these town halls have grown ugly.

This is the fault of the organizers that are inciting people to gather at these town halls and disrupt them AND the fault of the people that follow the directions of these organizers.

Again, not condoning the screaming and pounding but the attitude from the WH is and has been, "I won" and "shut up and get out of the way". If people felt listened to, they might have been more respectful.

59 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:56:55am

re: #47 thatemailname

So now we'll the see the Left start quoting Sarah Palin, the person they've held up for so long as brilliant, intelligent, and always correct?

What a joke.

She will not be quoted for the intelligent things she said without the questionable ("Obama's death panel") right there with it.

60 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:58:16am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

Where is the freedom fo speech if you are shouted down so your voice can not be heard ? If you have concerns about health care, speak out by asking a question and listening to the answer and discussing the issue. Yes, that goes for both sides. BTW, Obama has always said to disagree without being disagreeable, and getting in their face and engaging can be done without silencing the others sides comments. Obama won a lot of votes by keeping his rallies civil, and you'll only remind the voters of the contrast if you continue the screaming.

61 American Sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:58:16am

re: #38 Charles

Indeed. And it made her look like an extremist.

That's because she is an extremist. She represents the far, religious right, the part of the GOP that moderate conservatives are trying to get away from. This is one of the reasons McCain lost the election, not the only reason, for sure, but she was no help to him.

62 Nic G  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:58:23am

I agree with Ed Cline's comment on this Washington Post article.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Let's clarify some issues here. In this article, Sen. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) "said the angry shouting that had dominated some public meetings 'isn't the democratic process' and "isn't right.' He told CNN, 'You know, we need to respect free speech, but we need to respect one another's right to free speech, too.'"

Rep. Hill, Senator Durbin and all the others in Congress are speaking on taxpayers' money. Their "freedom of speech" in that capacity ends when they advocate violating individual rights, obliterating liberty, and plundering private property. They can advocate that all they want as private citizens, but not as Congressmen. Advocating those things violates their mandate, and citizens who oppose those things have every right to use their right of freedom of speech to shout them down if elected representatives won't listen.

Another amusing statement was made by Baron Hill: "What I don't want to do is create an opportunity for the people who are political terrorists to blow up the meeting and not try to answer thoughtful questions."

Now anyone who opposes the socialization of our lives and property is a "political terrorist." The government can employ force against Americans, but they are not allowed to resist it, even by invoking the First Amendment. Who's the terrorist here? Rather, who's terrified that he won't be reelected? Does Hill or Durbin have anything to say about the jihad the Democrats have launched against Americans with the shock troops of the SEIU, ACORN and the AFL-CIO? That is, the manipulated thugs being sent to these town halls to assault protesters, or bar them from attending the meetings? No. Hill claims the protesters don't want to ask or answer "thoughtful questions." But these are exactly what Hill and his fellow lawmakers cannot answer and do not want asked. They seek a dog and pony show of rigged unanimity and anyone who doesn't agree is branded a "political terrorist."

Every one of these whining lawmakers was elected to uphold the Constitution and individual rights, and if any one of them acts to side-step that mandate, they deserve to be shouted down.

63 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:58:27am

re: #52 Charles

Looks like a vote for intimidation and harassment to me.

I was disagree with this part of Palinis statement "Let’s not give the proponents of nationalized health care any reason to criticize us."

by responding...

"No. I don't agree with Palin. The progressives will criticize conservative no matter what we do or say, short of us totally disappearing."

You know my disagreement was with the point she made about giving the progressives any reason to criticize. Not about intimidation and harassment. I made a direct reference to the "criticizing" part of her comment, and not any other part.

64 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:58:44am

re: #43 Silvergirl

I don't stand behind Palin's earlier statements. Yet I will not gang on up her and say she was exploiting her child (not that you did). A parent of a special needs child feels these things more deeply knowing their child could stand to lose in a system not looking out for their best interests. She said in the McCain campaign that the special needs parents would have someone to fight for them. I look at her remarks as her attempt to do that, and I give her a lot of slack.

I can see where Palin would be very upset. How many times during the campaign did we hear dems actually saying she should have aborted Trig. Incredible. Really.

65 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:58:56am

re: #39 Gus 802

Like they say, you can attract more bees with honey.

Flies, Gus! Attract more flies with honey than vinegar is the phrase.

I have no idea, btw, if that's true or not. It sounds like it ought to be, but the Mythbusters haven't tested that one, yet, so far as I know.

66 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:58:57am

If you think the tactics of the left from the last 8 years was ugly and worthy of scorn and mockery- why do you think we should adopt those same tactics ourselves? I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want us to behave like the worst our side has to offer than be shocked when some say no and call it ugly.

67 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:59:00am

re: #52 Charles

Looks like a vote for intimidation and harassment to me.

It sounds like it because it is...and so is the message from the White House to "hit back twice as hard" and so is the presence of the Union Goons at these meetings now - their only reason for being there and acting the they way they are acting is to intimidate and control the debate.

Both sides need to take a breather and calm down.

68 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:59:34am

re: #23 Ward Cleaver

The bill also apparently is open to groups like "Compassion & Choices", formerly the Hemlock Society, to work under government contracts to offer "end-of-life counseling".

Cite a reference, please.

I don't believe this is the case.

Seriously, the end-of-life counseling is about deciding if/when heroic measures are used to save an otherwise dieing person. This is about control of ones life, not about a panel pushing one way or another.

This has NOTHING to do with euthanasia.

69 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:59:42am

re: #60 avanti

Where is the freedom fo speech if you are shouted down so your voice can not be heard ? If you have concerns about health care, speak out by asking a question and listening to the answer and discussing the issue. Yes, that goes for both sides. BTW, Obama has always said to disagree without being disagreeable, and getting in their face and engaging can be done without silencing the others sides comments. Obama won a lot of votes by keeping his rallies civil, and you'll only remind the voters of the contrast if you continue the screaming.

Obama won a lot of his votes by "getting in their faces" and " I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

That's how his campaign did it. His words, not mine.

70 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:59:44am

re: #57 Desert Dog

From the looks of things the seniors and suburban families are the ones screaming at the politicians the loudest.

From what I've seen the ones screaming show with "don't tread on me flags" and Obama with a Hitler mustache signs. You can see a vid like that at MM"s this am.

71 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:59:47am

re: #9 Dianna

I've been very angry about this business of people pounding on doors and shouting at town halls.

I understand the frustration with how politicians are not answering questions - mostly because they can't - and the feeling that the decisions are being rammed through over our objections. But I won't have anything to do with mob action.

This is not the way Americans should behave.

I fully understand the frustration of having a representative who ignores you. When I write, I receive no response. When I send an email, I get a form letter that doesn't address my questions. When I call, I receive boilerplate responses that do not specifically answer my questions. Are we really supposed to accept that as responsible representation?

I don't agree with chanting and shouting at town hall meetings. That's best left for protests outside the event with one exception. If your representative is screening questions and refuses to hear from people who oppose his policies, there may be a role for some sort of verbal exchange. Booing and hissing isn't completely out of the ordinary, we get a lot of that at our local town council and county meetings when they attempt to direct the discussion. Shouting and screaming isn't tolerated by either side.

72 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:59:53am

re: #61 American Sabra

That's because she is an extremist. She represents the far, religious right, the part of the GOP that moderate conservatives are trying to get away from. This is one of the reasons McCain lost the election, not the only reason, for sure, but she was no help to him.

I don't agree. I think she helped him more than hurt him. McCain never stood a chance. A lot of people from his own party did not want him.

73 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:00:08am

re: #64 WinterCat

I can see where Palin would be very upset. How many times during the campaign did we hear dems actually saying she should have aborted Trig. Incredible. Really.

Well, it's only mean spirited and unhealthy when the Republicans do it, didn't you know that? Otherwise, it's "Freedom of Speech"

/

74 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:00:31am

re: #66 Sharmuta

If you think the tactics of the left from the last 8 years was ugly and worthy of scorn and mockery- why do you think we should adopt those same tactics ourselves? I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want us to behave like the worst our side has to offer than be shocked when some say no and call it ugly.

What do you think of the tactics of the left in the last 8 years, as by your comment to me?

75 claire  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:00:40am

I'm getting confused. Who's being intimidated against speaking out? The voters or the politicians?

76 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:01:07am

re: #55 opnion

Obama is receiving four times the amount of death threats than Bush. Even after the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan the RoP didn't shut down town hall meeting with death threats like the Tea Party crowd has done. This has been completely disgusting.

77 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:01:15am

re: #58 WinterCat

Again, not condoning the screaming and pounding but the attitude from the WH is and has been, "I won" and "shut up and get out of the way". If people felt listened to, they might have been more respectful.

Obama just told them to shut up and get out of the way while he "tries to clean up their mess". I don't like the hostile exchanges and don't see them as productive...but, we've had to listen to them for 6 months now without a voice...I think these people just want to give them a piece of their mind.

78 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:01:19am

re: #33 keithgabryelski

You're presenting this as if it is the congressman's fault that these town halls have grown ugly.

This is the fault of the organizers that are inciting people to gather at these town halls and disrupt them AND the fault of the people that follow the directions of these organizers.


It sounds like you believe that Think Progress canard about massive organizing and talking points being faxed hither and yon. Turns out that was one guy with a $5K PAC and 23 members on Facebook. Conservatives typically don't mindlessly follow some "leader" they've never heard of.

The stories I've read and the videos I've seen indicate that the town halls turn ugly when congresspersons or other organizers (such as the AARP person) refuse to take questions, are unable to manage their own meetings, and recite a list of Pelosi-isms. This Congressman knew what he would be facing and went out of his way to move to a larger venue and conduct the meeting so everyone had a chance to have their say. He defused any potential anger and turned it into a positive experience. Good for him.


re: #42 keithgabryelski

With any context you can understand that "speak out" is code for "disrupt the normal discourse".

Since no one is preventing people from talking except those that are shouting down the speakers at these events, it is reasonable to assume he is advocating the continued disruption.

You're psychic? You know what Walter was thinking based on two words? Maybe "speak out" means "disrupt the normal discourse" on the left. Where I come from, it means saying what's on your mind without allowing others to intimidate you.

79 theheat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:01:50am

It doesn't appear that Palin may have considered her over-the-top death panel comments may have inflamed the same people she's now asking to behave. It's very Glenn Beck-like, to get people whipped into a frenzy, and then tell them to stop acting hysterical.

You can say, "Yeah, well at least she said it [about the mob mentality]." Then again, you can say, "Yeah, at least she said it [about the death panel]." She doesn't know when to STFU, unfortunately. She does a great job embarrassing herself, despite some some intentions.

She and Biden need to have a beer summit. The transcription would read like something that came out of Dutch Schultz's mouth in his final hours.

80 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:01:53am

re: #16 Thanos

I think this is a "cake and eat it too" retraction without a retraction. Sarah is right in this, but it comes on the heels of a statement that's bound to inspire anger at townhalls.

One of her advisers evidently realized it didn't look especially "presidential" to rant about Obama forcing your children to face death panels. So she issued this statement to offset that.

It's the right thing to say, but in the context of the "death panels" craziness it rings hollow.

81 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:02:14am

re: #53 Dianna

I am fascinated by how hard it is to disentangle what actually happened from the drum-beat of "Republican rent-a-mob".

Because much of the MSM is in the tank. The Democrats put out the Astro turfing charge claiming that Insurance Companies organized all of this.
Noone asks them to prove it, the silly charge just hangs out there.
Now the SEIU beat downs, not a bit organized , uh uh, the White House knew nothing. Yeah, that's the ticket.

82 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:02:53am

re: #70 Thanos

From what I've seen the ones screaming show with "don't tread on me flags" and Obama with a Hitler mustache signs. You can see a vid like that at MM"s this am.

I thought it was the "Brooks Brother Brigades" and people "too well dressed up" for Townhall meetings that were causing all these problems? Now, it's knuckle dragging militia types? Did these people bring a costume change?

83 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:03:05am

re: #58 WinterCat

Again, not condoning the screaming and pounding but the attitude from the WH is and has been, "I won" and "shut up and get out of the way". If people felt listened to, they might have been more respectful.

Well said.

84 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:03:22am

re: #59 Silvergirl

She will not be quoted for the intelligent things she said without the questionable ("Obama's death panel") right there with it.

Nor should she be. I'm not in favor of ignoring anything a politician says in a prepared speech.

85 JacksonTn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:03:25am

re: #82 Desert Dog

I thought it was the "Brooks Brother Brigades" and people "too well dressed up" for Townhall meetings that were causing all these problems? Now, it's knuckle dragging militia types? Did these people bring a costume change?

DD ... roflmao ...

86 gymnast  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:03:44am

Freedom of speech seems to be out of fashion with the current administration and Speaker Pelosi's editorial in today's "USA Today", is a signal message to Americans. Stand up for your rights! Be prepared to fight for your rights! The Constitution provides for freedom of speech, not "government health care for all under a single payer system as advocated by Obama.

87 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:03:51am

re: #80 Charles

One of her advisers evidently realized it didn't look especially "presidential" to rant about Obama forcing your children to face death panels. So she issued this statement to offset that.

It's the right thing to say, but in the context of the "death panels" craziness it rings hollow.

And the White House should start vetting themselves before Obama makes comments like "we won," "get in their faces" and " I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

You want any more quotes from the Chairman?

88 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:03:52am

re: #52 Charles

Looks like a vote for intimidation and harassment to me.

I didn't see the earlier part of the exchange.

89 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:03:52am

re: #81 opnion

There's a reason why I don't waste time with the MSM.

90 Flyers1974  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:04:46am

re: #3 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So I'm confused now, is dissent patriotic or is it un-American now? More importantly, is their anyways this can be blamed on the failed policies of Obama's predecessor?

91 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:04:46am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Obama is receiving four times the amount of death threats than Bush. Even after the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan the RoP didn't shut down town hall meeting with death threats like the Tea Party crowd has done. This has been completely disgusting.

According to the book, intelligence officials received information that people associated with the Somalia-based Islamist group al-Shabaab might try to disrupt Mr Obama's inauguration in January

Would be interested to see how many of the death threats against Obama are foreign and how many are homegrown. Also, how many against Bush were foreign and how many home based?

If the 400% increase was mostly foreign in origin, that could speak VOLUMES

92 justabill  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:04:47am

The only intimidation should be the loud and clear message that if your congressman votes in favor of this legislation (in any of its current forms), the voters will toss him out of office the next chance they get.

93 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:05:34am

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

What do you think of the tactics of the left in the last 8 years, as by your comment to me?

As by what comment to you?

94 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:05:36am

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

Does Obama being bad make it ok for us to be bad? If you've ever complained about Leftist mau mauing then it's hypocritical to condone this.

95 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:06:14am

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

And the White House should start vetting themselves before Obama makes comments like "we won," "get in their faces" and " I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

You want any more quotes from the Chairman?

No thanks -- had enough tu quoque arguments for today.

96 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:06:24am

re: #77 Charpete67

Obama just told them to shut up and get out of the way while he "tries to clean up their mess". I don't like the hostile exchanges and don't see them as productive...but, we've had to listen to them for 6 months now without a voice...I think these people just want to give them a piece of their mind.

But they have to give this piece of their minds in a way that doesn't put off moderate voters. This opposition is about more than the health care bill. It really is about the upcoming elections. And do you think moderate voters want to side with the ones who are screaming and acting like they are violent kooks? I sure don't. Let the kooks be the union opposition. Let their violent and intimidating tactics be pulled out into the open. That is the only way to win. Pounding and screaming is not the answer.

97 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:06:26am

re: #17 Desert Dog

Well, they are "un-American" after all, just ask Nancy. We the People should just shut up and take our "medicine", literally.

/

BS, she said no such thing. She said that protest is our right, but purposeful distractions to silence the other sides speech is in fact un-American. Read the statement, not the talking points.

98 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:06:34am

re: #61 American Sabra

McCain lost the election because he was the candidate. Palin gave him more votes than he deserved.

99 Flyers1974  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:07:07am

re: #3 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So I'm confused now, is dissent patriotic or is it un-American now? More importantly, is their anyways this can be blamed on the failed policies of Obama's predecessor?

Sorry about the double post.

For those who are most partisan, the answer depends upon which party is in power at the moment.

100 Jimash  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:07:44am

I have attended ONE townhall meeting in my town.
The issue was the planned sale of land that is now a park and baseball fields
for development of a stripmall.
Many of us in the effected area showed up. ( more than these town halls)
The committee presented their plan.
Then we shouted them down.
Concerned citizens armed with the facts then presented the facts
vehemently.
The plan was rescinded.
This is what the public meetings are for.
IF the township committee had barred the doors and refused us entrance, they would have been playing with fire.
Why should national politicians not face this democratic tradition ?
Seriously.
They need to get yelled at a little and reconsider their positions on light of
constituent outrage. Are we no longer allowed to become outraged ?
Have we already farmed out our public voice to the SEIU ?
In looking at the video coverage it would appear that the only violence I can see comes when SEIU is running the show.
If politicians cannot hand;e a tongue lashing from "Mature" but outraged people, maybe they should find another line of work.

101 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:08:23am

re: #89 The Other Les

There's a reason why I don't waste time with the MSM.

Because they cook the info. Once they got all gushy & drooling over Obama, any pretense to objectivity went out the window.

102 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:08:38am

re: #94 Thanos

Does Obama being bad make it ok for us to be bad? If you've ever complained about Leftist mau mauing then it's hypocritical to condone this.

I'm not telling anyone to do anything Obama says. I'm telling people to use their freedom of speech. I'm not going to tell anyone what that encompasses.

That's what the progressive socialist have been doing for the last 50 years, slowly making it improper for us to say ANYTHING without someone feeling that we are overstepping our bounds.

Not going to work anymore.

103 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:09:13am

re: #93 Sharmuta

As by what comment to you?

I'll cut my question in half...

"What do you think of the tactics of the left in the last 8 years"

104 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:09:16am

I reiterate - conservatives need to be careful how they protest because they are not on an even playing field with the media and the current administrations spin.

However, before we just lie down and accept the big lie...

Can anyone post evidence of a broad astroturfing campaign on the part of the conservatives or insurance companies as egregious as the White House training that encouraged congresscritters to "hit back twice as hard"?

Can anyone post any conservatives acting as badly as the Service Employees Union thugs who kicked and beat the conservative black man who tried to hand out Gadsen flags?

I'm beginning to think this administration and congress are getting frighteningly Orwellian or at the very least suffer from some kind of mass psychological projection.

105 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:09:29am

re: #66 Sharmuta

If you think the tactics of the left from the last 8 years was ugly and worthy of scorn and mockery- why do you think we should adopt those same tactics ourselves? I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want us to behave like the worst our side has to offer than be shocked when some say no and call it ugly.

I don't think this fear and anger coming out of these meetings is incited by an third party like some on the left are claiming. These people are genuinely afraid of what is coming down. It does not excuse the manner in which they have acted, but it does help explain things. This is not a "We Hate Obama" thing, it's a "We don't want you to mess with our Healthcare" kinda thing. The Dems underestimated the reaction to their plans...big time.

I hope there can be an actual debate at these meetings and I hope the Senators are listening to that debate. Acting like Democrats may help in the short term, but will not be very helpful in the long term.

106 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:09:39am

Death Panels...We all know what she is talking about, don't we. That is the scary part, that we can all envision a government bureaucrat telling us when we should consider giving up the ghost. And that is chilling.

Maybe Paling should have been more p.c. and called the euthanasia committees or "EOLDB's" as in "End Of Life Decision Boards." Whatever euphemism you use, the purpose is the same...limiting health care to cut costs.

107 Elcid  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:09:39am

I do believe this "rage" is due to Representatives and Senators having never engaged their constituents as real honest to God people.

Oh sure, they shake their hands, ask for their votes, pass some money to the political bosses to make sure the people vote for them.

They ensconce themselves in D.C. answer the citizenry with form letters, then don’t do a damn thing, except make more phony promises next election.

Now, being forced for the first time to answer damn good questions and listening to opinions from a forgotten, frustrated and angry people, they are truly shocked that there are “we the people”.

The old “how dare they speak to ME this way, don’t they know who I am!” Yes they do, idiots, but they voted you in to SERVE, not for YOU to BE served.

108 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:09:55am

re: #96 WinterCat

But they have to give this piece of their minds in a way that doesn't put off moderate voters. This opposition is about more than the health care bill. It really is about the upcoming elections. And do you think moderate voters want to side with the ones who are screaming and acting like they are violent kooks? I sure don't. Let the kooks be the union opposition. Let their violent and intimidating tactics be pulled out into the open. That is the only way to win. Pounding and screaming is not the answer.

I agree...I'm just saying that I don't think these people are part of some paid organizing effort to shut down the town halls...I'm also not saying it's right to shout the congressmen down...I'm just saying that there is a good possibility that these voters are just angry and the more BHO tries to marginalize the, the more angry they will get because they don't feel like he's hearing them.

109 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:10:12am

re: #98 Noam Sayin'

McCain lost the election because he was the candidate. Palin gave him more votes than he deserved.

I respect McCain's service. He is a great and honorable man. But he was not the guy I wanted. I wanted Rudi. Palin made it easier for me to vote for McCain. I felt the two balanced the ticket pretty well. Too bad they lost.

110 johnnyreb  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:10:12am

re: #100 Jimash


In negotiations with the unions we call that a "robust" discussion.

111 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:10:50am

re: #91 sattv4u2

Then there's the assassination chic that started during the Bush Administration, and the corresponding lack of the left's leadership to quash such talk. Instead, they doubled down, claiming that Bush was acting in an unconstitutional manner, further fueling the BDS.

But, it's clear that more people seemingly have it in for Obama whether it's because of his race, his policies, or just general animosity towards government. I don't think they'll release the kind of data you're looking out of security concerns and copycats.

Killgore:
I disagree with your notion that it's the Blue Dogs who are solely responsible for the possibility that single payer gets stripped from the bills. The Blue Dogs wouldn't be in a position to have that kind of effect if the bill had support from GOPers in any fashion at all. Instead, Pelosi has to hope that any substantive changes are enough to overcome the problems in Blue Dog districts - that were GOP and/or conservative leaning in the past or in the current session. There's substantial overreach by Democrats, and they're learning that they can't exactly count - because they'll still claim it's GOPers who are blocking the implementation of their health care steamroller even as they question those who dissent as Un-American - particularly those who shout down the Representatives (but ignore that the Reps are evasive and can't answer basic questions about the plans).

112 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:10:52am

re: #110 johnnyreb

In negotiations with the unions we call that a "robust" discussion.

Until the conservative start doing it, then it's intimidation.

113 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:11:00am

re: #97 avanti

BS, she said no such thing. She said that protest is our right, but purposeful distractions to silence the other sides speech is in fact un-American. Read the statement, not the talking points.

Hey, I covered my sarcasm with the "/"...get a stronger scrip for the googles, Avanti

114 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:11:18am

re: #113 Desert Dog

Hey, I covered my sarcasm with the "/"...get a stronger scrip for the googles, Avanti

goggle, oops...pimf

115 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:11:32am

re: #104 DaddyG

I reiterate - conservatives need to be careful how they protest because they are not on an even playing field with the media and the current administrations spin.

However, before we just lie down and accept the big lie...

Can anyone post evidence of a broad astroturfing campaign on the part of the conservatives or insurance companies as egregious as the White House training that encouraged congresscritters to "hit back twice as hard"?

Can anyone post any conservatives acting as badly as the Service Employees Union thugs who kicked and beat the conservative black man who tried to hand out Gadsen flags?

I'm beginning to think this administration and congress are getting frighteningly Orwellian or at the very least suffer from some kind of mass psychological projection.

Apparently, inviting your friends and carpooling is now considered astroturfing.

116 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:12:16am

re: #23 Ward Cleaver

"Death panels" is way over the top, but there are real worries that elderly people will feel pressured to agree to assisted suicide rather than consume healthcare dollars, like has happened in Oregon. The bill also apparently is open to groups like "Compassion & Choices", formerly the Hemlock Society, to work under government contracts to offer "end-of-life counseling". That scares me.

The Death Panels refer to the administration funding Comparative effectiveness in the stimulus plan and the possibility of Quality Adjusted Life Year figures used in determining who receives care (used by NHS). I was pleased to read the house of representatives did pass an amendment prohibiting the use of comparative effectiveness in deciding treatment but there is no guarantee it won't make the final cut or be added as prices skyrocket. I have seen no indication that QALYs is in either the house or senate version but again, without ironcad provisions prohibiting the use of either by the federal government now or in the future, "death panels" are not a far fetched idea.

117 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:12:26am

Now if we can only get prominent Democrats to call for restraint of the union thugs who actually brought violence to these. Instead we see statements like "keep doing what you're doing."

118 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:12:52am

re: #111 lawhawk

Then there's the assassination chic that started during the Bush Administration, and the corresponding lack of the left's leadership to quash such talk. Instead, they doubled down, claiming that Bush was acting in an unconstitutional manner, further fueling the BDS...

You always put it so much clearer than I do. That's just what I am trying to say. And it's not going to work anymore.

Too bad for the progressive socialist. The game is over.

119 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:12:55am

re: #111 lawhawk

You are correct, I suspect Regional R's are double team influencing the Blue Dogs in the background. The red line for both seems to be Public Option, which is driving the left coast Dems mad. Nobody's focusing on that much however.

120 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:13:02am

re: #78 doppelganglander

You're psychic? You know what Walter was thinking based on two words? Maybe "speak out" means "disrupt the normal discourse" on the left. Where I come from, it means saying what's on your mind without allowing others to intimidate you.

I'm saying that Walter, having as much information as I have since this has been all over the blogs, should realize that the largest problem at these events has been the people shouting down the speakers and other questioners.

To say these people are just voicing their opinion is being disingenuous, and again -- anyone with even a simple relationship with the news would understand that "speak out" means "continue the tactics" instead of "tone down the disruptions and let's have a discussion".

Now, about the guy with 23 twitter followers. I've never claimed he was the instigator, it is suspicious that his directions seem to be the tactics used by the disruptive attendees, but he doesn't have to be the person that first suggested these tactics or even the only person to suggest the use of these tactics.

They are wrong, no matter who suggested it.

121 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:13:18am

re: #115 doppelganglander

Apparently, inviting your friends and carpooling is now considered astroturfing.

...a far better tactic would be to turn in your neighbor to the administration if they disagree with the administration.../

122 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:13:29am

re: #104 DaddyG

I reiterate - conservatives need to be careful how they protest because they are not on an even playing field with the media and the current administrations spin.

However, before we just lie down and accept the big lie...

Can anyone post evidence of a broad astroturfing campaign on the part of the conservatives or insurance companies as egregious as the White House training that encouraged congresscritters to "hit back twice as hard"?

Can anyone post any conservatives acting as badly as the Service Employees Union thugs who kicked and beat the conservative black man who tried to hand out Gadsen flags?

I'm beginning to think this administration and congress are getting frighteningly Orwellian or at the very least suffer from some kind of mass psychological projection.

It is really just a matter of time, isn't it? And then what? The whole argument will be lost and we will be more solidly facing a nation controlled by liberals for many more years to come.

123 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:13:32am

re: #113 Desert Dog

Hey, I covered my sarcasm with the "/"...get a stronger scrip for the googles, Avanti

OK, fair enough what exactly do you object to when you read the comments in full:

"We believe it is healthy for such a historic effort to be subject to so much scrutiny and debate,'' Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Hoyer (D-Md.) write in an Op-Ed essay published byUSA Today.

"However, it is now evident that an ugly campaign is underway not merely to misrepresent the health insurance reform legislation, but to disrupt public meetings and prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue,'' the two leaders write…. "These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views -- but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American.''

124 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:13:33am

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

I'll cut my question in half...

"What do you think of the tactics of the left in the last 8 years"

Pretty sure my opinions on the 8 year tantrum of the left have been adequately stated previously.

125 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:13:33am

re: #111 lawhawk

Killgore:
I disagree with your notion that it's the Blue Dogs who are solely responsible for the possibility that single payer gets stripped from the bills. The Blue Dogs wouldn't be in a position to have that kind of effect if the bill had support from GOPers in any fashion at all.

gmta ,, (#38)

126 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:13:50am

re: #115 doppelganglander

Apparently, inviting your friends and carpooling is now considered astroturfing.

Especially if you pile them in the back of your El Camino lined with AstroTurf.

127 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:14:17am

re: #97 avanti

Oh, she and Hoyer wrote that op-ed purposefully ignoring that it was members of their caucus - fellow Democrats- couldn't (or wouldn't) answer basic questions and got evasive over key issues relating to the health care plan.

The crowds got angry because they weren't getting answers.

That doesn't condone the violence, but Pelosi and Hoyer's claims that this is unAmerican smacks of the typical partisan political nonsense we saw during the Bush years as well - when none on the Left would smack down the Code Pinks and Moveon.org types who routinely engaged in similar statements. Instead, now those on the right (or anyone who opposes the Democrats' plans) are labeled as unAmerican? Wasn't there a time when dissent was the highest form of patriotism (Clinton said that in reflecting on the Bush Administration at that).

128 american sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:14:40am

re: #98 Noam Sayin'

McCain lost the election because he was the candidate. Palin gave him more votes than he deserved.

The two were a bad combination, but he would have had a fighting chance and I suspect would have garnered many more votes had he picked someone else. It was an ill-conceived idea to be all "mavericky" and pick a woman. People were looking at Palin as a very possible President in light of McCain's age and health and the country did not want her. And yes him, either.

129 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:15:06am

re: #61 American Sabra

That's because she is an extremist. She represents the far, religious right, the part of the GOP that moderate conservatives are trying to get away from. This is one of the reasons McCain lost the election, not the only reason, for sure, but she was no help to him.

Absolutely. And KT (or whoever) was right upthread when he speculated that this was CYA tactics. Palin was attacked, and rightly so, from her own side over her ridiculous comments over the "death panel".

Those comments also revealed Palin as utterly ignorant or an opportunist or both. This woman claimed her first priority as veep would be families of kids with special needs. Guess who denies Downs Syndrome kids treatment now? Insurance companies!

[Link: obsidianwings.blogs.com...]
Christian Science Monitor, 10/21/08 (Lexis):


Margaret Demko of Albany, Ohio, agrees everyone should be responsible for themselves. But she also believes the free market has failed the healthcare system miserably. That's left too many people, like her family and every other family that lives on her rural road in Appalachia, without healthcare coverage.

. . .

Ensuring that everyone has access to care has become a full-time cause for Ms. Demko. She and her family have been without insurance since her daughter was born four years ago with what doctors say is Down syndrome. Her husband is a self-employed contractor so the family had relied on her job as a substance abuse counselor for their health insurance.

But Demko said she couldn't keep working full time with an infant with special needs. When she quit, she didn't realize that would result in her family's being unable to get health insurance.

Ohio does not require insurance companies to cover children with disabilities considered to be preexisting conditions.

130 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:15:08am

re: #120 keithgabryelski

I'm saying that Walter, having as much information as I have since this has been all over the blogs, should realize that the largest problem at these events has been the people shouting down the speakers and other questioners...

No the largest problem is that the progressive socialists are telling us to shut up...

Obama "I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

What part of "don't do a lot of talking" don't you understand? I'll do all the talking I want to.

131 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:15:16am
132 funky chicken  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:15:26am

re: #104 DaddyG

I'm beginning to think this administration and congress are getting frighteningly Orwellian or at the very least suffer from some kind of mass psychological projection.

It's worked for them all this time; why would they stop now?

133 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:15:31am

re: #124 Sharmuta

Pretty sure my opinions on the 8 year tantrum of the left have been adequately stated previously.

LOL.

134 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:15:41am

re: #106 LionOfDixon

Death Panels...We all know what she is talking about, don't we. That is the scary part, that we can all envision a government bureaucrat telling us when we should consider giving up the ghost. And that is chilling.

Maybe Paling should have been more p.c. and called the euthanasia committees or "EOLDB's" as in "End Of Life Decision Boards." Whatever euphemism you use, the purpose is the same...limiting health care to cut costs.

Oops. I updinged you accidentally. I don't like Palin's choice of words. Period. Words matter.

135 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:15:49am

re: #100 Jimash
Jimash- my one town hall meeting experience was similar. We had someone trying to sneak an industrial truck parking lot into a residential neighborhood. more of us showed up than could fit in the room and we let one person tell the developer why it was a very bad idea. Fortunately for us the board declined the re-zoning but the fact that we packed the room didn't hurt our cause. No one lost their temper but we didn't have the board chair telling us what was good for us either.

136 Flyers1974  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:15:59am

re: #72 WinterCat

I don't agree. I think she helped him more than hurt him. McCain never stood a chance. A lot of people from his own party did not want him.

I agree. I think Palin was/is out of her league and that many people found her "plain-folk" image as manufactured, but I also think she brought conservatives to the polls who might otherwise have stayed home.

137 harpsicon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:16:38am

re: #66 Sharmuta

If you think the tactics of the left from the last 8 years was ugly and worthy of scorn and mockery- why do you think we should adopt those same tactics ourselves? I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want us to behave like the worst our side has to offer than be shocked when some say no and call it ugly.

I think people are saying that because these tactics worked, and got the left to where they are today, in control of just about everything, that they can't be written off quite that easily.

What to do when a cheater wins is always a problem.

138 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:16:41am

re: #120 keithgabryelski

I'm saying that Walter, having as much information as I have since this has been all over the blogs, should realize that the largest problem at these events has been the people shouting down the speakers and other questioners.

To say these people are just voicing their opinion is being disingenuous, and again -- anyone with even a simple relationship with the news would understand that "speak out" means "continue the tactics" instead of "tone down the disruptions and let's have a discussion".

Now, about the guy with 23 twitter followers. I've never claimed he was the instigator, it is suspicious that his directions seem to be the tactics used by the disruptive attendees, but he doesn't have to be the person that first suggested these tactics or even the only person to suggest the use of these tactics.

They are wrong, no matter who suggested it.

I'd like to throw this open to Walter. When you say "speak out," exactly what do you mean?

Secondly, who do you think is suggesting people go to town hall meetings with the deliberate intent of stirring up trouble, shouting people down, and generally beclowning themselves?

139 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:17:02am

Public Option...there is a misnomer if there ever was one.

Here is a farily simple solution to health care...why not take some of the stimulus money and some that is being spent on medicare and build 2 to 3 new medical schools in each state? Put more doctors in the market and costs will come down.

140 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:17:16am

re: #127 lawhawk

dissent was is the highest form of patriotism

Parked next to a car with that sticker on it (as well as an Obama one) yesterday at the grocery store. I asked the driver if now that Obama is in office, could I borrow the other sticker?

(got a dirty look for my troubles)

141 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:17:51am

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

No the largest problem is that the progressive socialists are telling us to shut up...

Define "progressive socialist" please.

These words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean. And you can't just shove them together to create some new slur meaning 'people on the left'.

142 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:17:56am

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

Laugh it up, Walter. Waiting for a 1984 reference still.

143 jvic  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:17:59am

Like others, I am disappointed in Obama. Like others, I am nevertheless committed to giving him due credit when he does or says the right thing.

I didn't expect to feel the same way about Palin, but here I am.

144 gatorbait  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:18:00am

re the Death Panel issue:

1. A major piece of the Obamacare plan consists of the medical equivalent of the Fed Reserve Bd to establish "guidelines" under a universal health plan.

2. Two of Obama's principal health care advisers favor limitations on eligibility of persons who consume extensive health care dollars and persons who are not very productive socially. Please see this link [Link: www.nypost.com...]

With this in mind, perhaps Sarah Palin did us all a great service by bringing this BS to the forefront of discussion. Is she "stupid and crazy," or perhaps is she courageous?

145 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:18:29am

re: #139 LionOfDixon

Public Option...there is a misnomer if there ever was one.

Here is a farily simple solution to health care...why not take some of the stimulus money and some that is being spent on medicare and build 2 to 3 new medical schools in each state? Put more doctors in the market and costs will come down.

...what are you...one of those free market radicals?...///

146 american sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:18:32am

re: #129 iceweasel

Much agreed. Do you read any of the Alaskan bloggers? I think you would enjoy following them.

147 justabill  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:18:37am

Has there always been a count of how many new comments have been posted since your last refresh on the "new comments". If it has I never noticed it, if not its a welcome change. Thank Charles.

148 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:18:40am

re: #134 WinterCat

Freudian slip? Choice of words is important...I'm sure many in berlin in 1933 wish they would have used stronger words against an upstart politician who spoke eloquently about change.

149 Seattle Rep  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:18:48am

"End Of Life Decision Boards."
Is this what the Obama admin wanted to control the US Census data for?
I guess the only certain things ARE death and taxes.

150 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:19:23am

re: #144 gatorbait

Palin claimed her grandaparents and baby Trig would have to stand before a 'death panel'.

She engaged in fearmongering and lies.

151 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:19:24am

re: #116 Wendya

The Death Panels refer to the administration funding Comparative effectiveness in the stimulus plan and the possibility of Quality Adjusted Life Year figures used in determining who receives care (used by NHS). I was pleased to read the house of representatives did pass an amendment prohibiting the use of comparative effectiveness in deciding treatment but there is no guarantee it won't make the final cut or be added as prices skyrocket. I have seen no indication that QALYs is in either the house or senate version but again, without ironcad provisions prohibiting the use of either by the federal government now or in the future, "death panels" are not a far fetched idea.

There is a defacto "Death Panel" with any insurance...even if it's not called that. My father is really messed up right now. He has diabetes, heart disease, congestive heart failure, emphysema, COPD, high blood pressure...it's almost to the point to where the list of what he doesn't have is shorter than the list of things he does have. His doctors were discussing a bypass procedure, but Medicare came back with some conditions...He is 82 years old and falling apart. For now, they are holding off. I think what people fear is that some nameless, faceless bureaucrat will be holding the power of life and death over people rather than your Doctor. I would be afraid of that as well. You become a number or a statistic...and the merits of your condition will be judged with cold and unfeeling eyes, rather than your Doctor.

152 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:19:26am

re: #140 sattv4u2

Saw an Obama sticker on a car with handicapped plates on it. And my thought was, "I didn't know they gave those out for the mentally handicapped."

153 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:19:32am

re: #137 harpsicon

I think people are saying that because these tactics worked, and got the left to where they are today, in control of just about everything, that they can't be written off quite that easily.

What to do when a cheater wins is always a problem.

I think we're mistaken that these tactics work. Correlation is not causation. Seems to me what really helped the democrats regain Congress and the White House was republicans behaving like democrats with their drunken spending habits.

154 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:19:37am

re: #145 Charpete67

I am not a free-market radical. Let's say, however, that I support a radical free market. Call me a disciple of Adam Smith.

155 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:19:51am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Obama is receiving four times the amount of death threats than Bush. Even after the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan the RoP didn't shut down town hall meeting with death threats like the Tea Party crowd has done. This has been completely disgusting.

Town hall meetings are being shut down with death threats?

Where?

156 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:19:52am

re: #106 LionOfDixon

Death Panels...
...euthanasia committees...
"EOLDB's" as in "End Of Life Decision Boards".

Kick the bucket brigades
End of Life Coaching
Egressionals
Perpetual Outplacement
Mortuarial Stimulus
(this could be fun).

157 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:20:25am

re: #146 american sabra

Much agreed. Do you read any of the Alaskan bloggers? I think you would enjoy following them.

hell yes I do! I bet we read some of the same ones! mudflats, of course is my main one. You?

158 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:20:30am
159 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:20:32am

Ezekiel Emanuel (Rahm's brother) and his Lancet article advocating healthcare rationing focusing on the productive 15-40 age group, from earlier this yeat

Ezekiel has also gone on record saying Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously and than patients suffering from dementia should be not be guaranteed healthcare, since they would not be "participating citizens".

Just say hello to another one of your senior White House healthcare advisors, folks.

160 Flyers1974  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:20:34am

re: #128 american sabra

The two were a bad combination, but he would have had a fighting chance and I suspect would have garnered many more votes had he picked someone else. It was an ill-conceived idea to be all "mavericky" and pick a woman. People were looking at Palin as a very possible President in light of McCain's age and health and the country did not want her. And yes him, either.

Before Palin, however, I think conservatives were demoralized, i.e., we're probably going to lose, but even if we don't, our prize is McCain. Palin's nomination gave the GOP a boost of energy and (at the time at least) hope for future elections.

161 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:20:45am

A visit to the right's fever swamps will dredge up plenty of evidence that these disruptions are orchestrated not by the corporate interests the lefties love to accuse but by the same crowd that instigated and took over the tea parties.
Pelosi et al find it in their interest not to identify the real culprits, since they cannot bear to think that a real (albeit insane) grassroots effort would oppose the Dems, so the situation is bound to get worse.

162 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:20:57am

re: #123 avanti

OK, fair enough what exactly do you object to when you read the comments in full:

"We believe it is healthy for such a historic effort to be subject to so much scrutiny and debate,'' Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Hoyer (D-Md.) write in an Op-Ed essay published byUSA Today.

"However, it is now evident that an ugly campaign is underway not merely to misrepresent the health insurance reform legislation, but to disrupt public meetings and prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue,'' the two leaders write�. "These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views -- but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American.''

Scrutiny and debate? Are you kidding me? That's why Obama wanted it passed before recess - and before the ink was even dry on a final copy?

That's why Democrats in House and Senate were going in that direction until public opinion said - hold the phone... and the outpouring of anger and frustration found the Democrats on the defensive - namely why should everyone be forced to change their health care options because Democrats suddenly claimed that it was absolutely necessary.

The perfect storm is that the government bungled cash for clunkers - a $1 (now $3 billion) program. They can't tell you how much money was spent, where it was spent, and yet threw more money (that we don't have).

Now, what about the Democrats claims that the health care bill will save money? There's no proof - just empty statements from Obama on down. Since when has the government saved us money by spending our money? It hasn't.

Pelosi and Hoyer are trying to spin things in a more favorable direction, but the fact is that many Americans aren't going to sit back and watch their health care options change (and many for the worse), because of a claim that some more people will be included in some kind of plan (which those who already have care will have to pay more for).

Add to that the claims that tens of millions are uninsured, ignoring the number of people who choose not to have insurance, illegal aliens, and those who could have insurance under a public plan (SCHIP, state health care plans that go beyond federal plans), or people who don't take advantage of Medicare or Medicaid benefits already due them. After all, there are numerous ad campaigns annually to enroll people into these existing programs.

None of that addresses access - which is available to everyone. It may not be optimal access (many of those people will go to emergency rooms rather than personal physicians), but to claim they aren't getting care is disingenuous at best.

163 cronus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:21:22am

re: #137 harpsicon

I think people are saying that because these tactics worked, and got the left to where they are today, in control of just about everything, that they can't be written off quite that easily.

What to do when a cheater wins is always a problem.

I disagree that those tactics "worked". Dems are in power because moderates lost faith in Republicans to govern. Now they are being reminded why they lost faith in Dems to govern. Thus you get the cyclical change of power regardless of either sides rhetoric.

164 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:21:40am

re: #148 LionOfDixon

Freudian slip? Choice of words is important...I'm sure many in berlin in 1933 wish they would have used stronger words against an upstart politician who spoke eloquently about change.

Could we lose the Nazi analogies please. It's a heath care bill debate, not the rise of a fascist government.

165 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:21:55am

re: #128 american sabra

You're quite simply wrong. The only people calling him maverick were the MSM, led by the NYT. The RNC fell for it like a ton of bricks, thinking they had a candidate to whom the media would be friendly. There was nary a flattering article or OpEd from them after he got the nomination. It became obvious that this old fart could not win against a younger, more dynamic speaker. Like her or not, Palin made it close. It would have been a landslide if he'd picked anyone else, save for Romney or Rudy.

166 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:21:58am

re: #138 doppelganglander

I'd like to throw this open to Walter. When you say "speak out," exactly what do you mean?

Secondly, who do you think is suggesting people go to town hall meetings with the deliberate intent of stirring up trouble, shouting people down, and generally beclowning themselves?

Sean Hannity posted a banner at his website saying "Become a part of the mob!"

Glenn Beck has been ranting insanely about disrupting town halls for the past two weeks.

It's extremely easy to find examples of red meat right wing pundits suggesting that people go to town hall meetings deliberately to cause trouble.

167 Jimash  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:22:16am

re: #149 Seattle Rep

"Is this what the Obama admin wanted to control the US Census data for?"

No. When you put it together, the false voter registrations and the AcORNed census data,
will funnel more money to the "community organizers", making them more powerful.

Ending treatment for old people just saves cash for boob-jobs, and "Extreme Sports" injuries.

168 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:22:23am

re: #122 WinterCat

It is really just a matter of time, isn't it? And then what? The whole argument will be lost and we will be more solidly facing a nation controlled by liberals for many more years to come.


I pray not. And short of it happening I would appreciate opponents (Pelosi) and allies alike don't assume it will happen and treat all upset conserviatives like they are potentail terrorists. They can exercise their outrage on their own misbahaving supporters.

169 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:22:39am

re: #147 justabill

Has there always been a count of how many new comments have been posted since your last refresh on the "new comments". If it has I never noticed it, if not its a welcome change. Thank Charles.

That's a new feature I deployed last weekend.

170 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:22:40am

re: #138 doppelganglander

I'd like to throw this open to Walter. When you say "speak out," exactly what do you mean?

Secondly, who do you think is suggesting people go to town hall meetings with the deliberate intent of stirring up trouble, shouting people down, and generally beclowning themselves?

"Speak out." Go to the meetings and say what you want to say. I'm not going to tell an adult how to say it, or what is proper or not. I will suggest not to riot, hit, harm, hurt. But, if you presume what you can or can't say before you even show up, you have already defeated your message.

171 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:11am

re: #159 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ezekiel Emanuel (Rahm's brother) and his Lancet article advocating healthcare rationing focusing on the productive 15-40 age group, from earlier this yeat

Ezekiel has also gone on record saying Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously and than patients suffering from dementia should be not be guaranteed healthcare, since they would not be "participating citizens".

Just say hello to another one of your senior White House healthcare advisors, folks.

His brother has what position in the administration ?

172 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:38am

re: #141 iceweasel

Define "progressive socialist" please.

These words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean. And you can't just shove them together to create some new slur meaning 'people on the left'.

Hahahahaha. Don't you get it, any two "bad" words can be combined to create new and awesome slurs! Like calling Obama a Nazi Socialist! Or a Fascist Commie! Pay no mind to the fact that they are completely opposing ideologies, what matters is that it sounds scary.

173 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:39am

re: #141 iceweasel

Define "progressive socialist" please.

These words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean. And you can't just shove them together to create some new slur meaning 'people on the left'.

My term, means nothing, only to me. Off topic. I am talking about freedom of speech at the health care proposal meetings.

174 american sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:41am

re: #151 Desert Dog

There is a defacto "Death Panel" with any insurance...even if it's not called that. My father is really messed up right now. He has diabetes, heart disease, congestive heart failure, emphysema, COPD, high blood pressure...it's almost to the point to where the list of what he doesn't have is shorter than the list of things he does have. His doctors were discussing a bypass procedure, but Medicare came back with some conditions...He is 82 years old and falling apart. For now, they are holding off. I think what people fear is that some nameless, faceless bureaucrat will be holding the power of life and death over people rather than your Doctor. I would be afraid of that as well. You become a number or a statistic...and the merits of your condition will be judged with cold and unfeeling eyes, rather than your Doctor.

Sorry to hear about your dad. Without Medicare (a government funded single payer system), my mother would most likely would have died 10 years ago. She was twice saved from a life-threatening illness and had it been for private insurance, she may not have made it.

Me on the other hand, a pretty healthy middle-age person has twice been denied an MRI by my most excellent insurance company which I pay out the teeth for. We're still fighting for approval. I wish I had Medicare.

Something has to change.

175 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:43am

lot's of good posts, some really over the top stuff too...anyway the way I see it is that the intensity, or politeness, or degree that conservatives are pissed is not the issue...the fact is voters have been mistreated and misrepresented by the BO and his admin...what happens or what may happen depends on his reaction to all of this...clearly the dems are selling shit and calling pizza pie and people are not buying...the ball is in their court...they made this mess and they have to fix it...pounding a door slammed in your face is not the problem...if the dems want a different reaction from voters, then offer them some honesty and humilty

176 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:44am

re: #164 avanti

Could we lose the Nazi analogies please. It's a heath care bill debate, not the rise of a fascist government.

Thank you. It's exactly that sort of hyperbole that is poisoning the well of political discourse in this country. It cheapens the meaning of evil and only serves to demonize that which the speaker is incapable of reasoning against.

177 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:45am

re: #123 avanti

OK, fair enough what exactly do you object to when you read the comments in full:

"We believe it is healthy for such a historic effort to be subject to so much scrutiny and debate,'' Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Hoyer (D-Md.) write in an Op-Ed essay published byUSA Today.

"However, it is now evident that an ugly campaign is underway not merely to misrepresent the health insurance reform legislation, but to disrupt public meetings and prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue,'' the two leaders write�. "These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views -- but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American.''

Drowning out the other side with noise is not healthy and it is un-American, no doubt.

But, where is this "debate" you speak of? There is no debate here...we are being told from on high what will we be getting. A debate usually requires give and take, compromise, expression of opinions...The only time the Dems slowed down is when the BlueDogs started barking...then and only then did the steamroller slow down. But, that was a mere speed bump.

How are people on my side of the aisle supposed to react to this kind of statement from the White House?
Obama Promises health overhaul, with or without GOP

178 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:48am

re: #164 avanti

Could we lose the Nazi analogies please. It's a heath care bill debate, not the rise of a fascist government.

Seconded. We don't need to delve into Godwin here.

179 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:23:55am
180 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:00am

re: #155 Wendya

Town hall meetings are being shut down with death threats?

Where?

Mike Gallagher had audio on his show this morning of a congressman (sorry , didn't catch the name) that stated he got a "threat" and was cancelling a meeting due to that

181 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:15am

re: #20 Last Mohican

Well that's certainly true. If one protester emails one of his friends and says "there's a town hall meeting on Thursday, let's go to it," Pelosi and her thugs will accuse them of "astroturfing" as part of a vast right-wing conspiracy.

But that's no reason to start shouting people down and preventing discussion. Show up, speak out, and protest peacefully and respectuflly.

I have no idea how many of the conservative protesters have been resorting to intimidation. It's somewhere between 1% and 99%. It should be 0%.

I don't think the purpose of these town halls was for discussion. It was for Democrat talking points.

182 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:18am

re: #172 drcordell

Hahahahaha. Don't you get it, any two "bad" words can be combined to create new and awesome slurs! Like calling Obama a Nazi Socialist! Or a Fascist Commie! Pay no mind to the fact that they are completely opposing ideologies, what matters is that it sounds scary.

Changing topic now are we? I'm not playing. I am talking about freedom of speech at these health care proposal meetings.

183 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:24am

re: #148 LionOfDixon

Freudian slip? Choice of words is important...I'm sure many in berlin in 1933 wish they would have used stronger words against an upstart politician who spoke eloquently about change.

This is complete crap.

184 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:25am

re: #136 Flyers1974

I agree. I think Palin was/is out of her league and that many people found her "plain-folk" image as manufactured, but I also think she brought conservatives to the polls who might otherwise have stayed home.

I liked Palin's essence. I had great hopes for her. I have not given up on her entirely but I do think she came off as a bit manufactured during the election. I cringed when I heard her call herself a Maverick. Those words felt like they came straight from the McCain campaign folks. Pretty sure they did.

But Palin has some work to do. And the hill she had to climb has become a mountain for her. If she manages to get back to the Sarah Palin she was before she was picked by McCain, she will have my vote.

185 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:33am

re: #169 Charles

That's a new feature I deployed last weekend.

It's extremely cool, and I really appreciate it.

186 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:35am

re: #141 iceweasel

Define "progressive socialist" please.

These words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean. And you can't just shove them together to create some new slur meaning 'people on the left'.

I'm still waiting to find out if you are a progressive or a lib. /

187 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:36am

re: #169 Charles

That's a new feature I deployed last weekend.

I like it. Tells me how far behind the discussion I've gotten. ;-)

188 Locker  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:24:43am

I find Palin's words less than genuine and more of a back track after her ridiculous comments about death panels.

189 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:25:11am

re: #171 avanti

He's re: #171 avanti

His brother has what position in the administration ?

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel:

He is on extended detail as a special advisor for health policy to the director of the White House Office of Management and Budget.

190 katemaclaren  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:25:11am

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

No. I don't agree with Palin. The progressives will criticize conservative no matter what we do or say, short of us totally disappearing.

Speak out.

Good on ya, Walt.

191 Seattle Rep  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:25:21am

Seriously though, I know some people on the Palin FB page and their moderators are constantly culling the posts for any 'nirther', and extremist comments. Those don't stay up for long. And yes, I agree with the whole restraint thing in this situation.
"He brings a knife, you bring a cake."
"He puts one of yours in the hospital, make sure you get their voter registration, if he dies."
- updated Untouchables Sean Connery quote

192 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:25:22am

re: #171 avanti

His brother has what position in the administration ?

White House Chief of Staff... You're an advocate of this administration and you don't know this?

193 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:25:29am

re: #166 Charles

Sean Hannity posted a banner at his website saying "Become a part of the mob!"
Glenn Beck has been ranting insanely about disrupting town halls for the past two weeks.

It's extremely easy to find examples of red meat right wing pundits suggesting that people go to town hall meetings deliberately to cause trouble.

In fairness, that was done tongue in cheeck after the dems complained about "mobs" showing up at meetings

194 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:25:30am

re: #172 drcordell

Hahahahaha. Don't you get it, any two "bad" words can be combined to create new and awesome slurs! Like calling Obama a Nazi Socialist! Or a Fascist Commie! Pay no mind to the fact that they are completely opposing ideologies, what matters is that it sounds scary.

I completely get it, my dear doc.

As one of the more acerbic reviewers of Jonah Goldberg's onanistic opus remarked:
"Liberal Fascism: two words next to each other".

:)
Good to see you.

195 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:25:39am

re: #171 avanti

His brother has what position in the administration ?

Ezekiel J. Emanuel

Currently Emanuel is Director of the Clinical Bioethics Department at the U.S. National Institutes of Health. Ezekiel has been tapped as a White House Health Care policy adviser.[6]

196 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:26:01am

String of Bombings Kills at Least 48 in Iraq

If a bomb goes off in Iraq, and a Bush isn't President, does it still make a sound?

197 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:26:08am

re: #189 lawhawk

In other words, he's providing his opinion to the OMB, which churns out the numbers that the White House is using to defend their health care plan, and through his brother, has a sounding board for his ideas with the President.

198 katemaclaren  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:26:39am

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

Tried to upding your comment, Walt, to no avail. Upding won't work.

199 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:26:40am

re: #177 Desert Dog

Drowning out the other side with noise is not healthy and it is un-American, no doubt.

But, where is this "debate" you speak of? There is no debate here...we are being told from on high what will we be getting. A debate usually requires give and take, compromise, expression of opinions...The only time the Dems slowed down is when the BlueDogs started barking...then and only then did the steamroller slow down. But, that was a mere speed bump.

How are people on my side of the aisle supposed to react to this kind of statement from the White House?
Obama Promises health overhaul, with or without GOP

The Dems have been making noises about using "reconciliation" in the Senate to get around the 60 vote obstacle, so it could get rammed through whether we like it or not. The thing is, once this thing starts to get implemented, how do you reverse it?

200 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:26:51am

re: #194 iceweasel

I completely get it, my dear doc.

As one of the more acerbic reviewers of Jonah Goldberg's onanistic opus remarked:
"Liberal Fascism: two words next to each other".

:)
Good to see you.

Actually, it's a quote from H.G. Wells.

Good writer, but very strange politically.

201 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:27:04am

re: #187 Honorary Yooper

I like it. Tells me how far behind the discussion I've gotten. ;-)

I like it too. Way cool.

202 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:27:18am

re: #193 sattv4u2

In fairness, that was done tongue in cheeck after the dems complained about "mobs" showing up at meetings

It's not funny. It only works to co-opt a derogatory term like "mob" if you aren't really acting like a mob.

If you are acting like a mob, it sounds threatening and belligerent. Which it is.

203 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:27:25am

re: #196 Ben Hur

String of Bombings Kills at Least 48 in Iraq

If a bomb goes off in Iraq, and a Bush isn't President, does it still make a sound?

What sound?

204 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:27:35am

re: #172 drcordell

Hahahahaha. Don't you get it, any two "bad" words can be combined to create new and awesome slurs! Like calling Obama a Nazi Socialist! Or a Fascist Commie! Pay no mind to the fact that they are completely opposing ideologies, what matters is that it sounds scary.

Actually all of the named ideologies are variations on the same basic concept. That the individual exists solely to serve the collective and has no right to a life.

Seriously, the basic difference between a Fascist and a Progressive is the uniform.

205 debutaunt  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:27:38am

re: #65 Dianna

Flies, Gus! Attract more flies with honey than vinegar is the phrase.

I have no idea, btw, if that's true or not. It sounds like it ought to be, but the Mythbusters haven't tested that one, yet, so far as I know.

Remember the Gus character in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn?

206 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:27:49am

re: #155 Wendya

Town hall meetings are being shut down with death threats?

Where?

A lot of them. Too many to list. Google news: Town Hall Death Threat

207 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:28:17am

re: #173 Walter L. Newton

My term, means nothing, only to me. Off topic. I am talking about freedom of speech at the health care proposal meetings.

Christ. Nobody is trying to claim that people opposed to healthcare reforms don't have a right to have their opinions heard. These mobs, yes MOBS, are being riled up with the sole purpose of completely stifling all debate and discussion by screaming and being generally disruptive. The Democrats could have gone the route of the previous administration and held closed town halls with pre-screened audience members and pre-selected questions. Instead they chose to have a true open forum, and have been rewarded with hooligans shouting so loud that nobody can have their opinion heard. How does this accomplish anything constructive?

208 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:28:35am

re: #193 sattv4u2

In fairness, that was done tongue in cheeck after the dems complained about "mobs" showing up at meetings

Yeah, it's a "joke"

Like Beck "joking" about poisoning pelosi-- less than a week after one of listeners tried to attack what she thought was a seekrit FEMA camp.

Like Coulter "joking" about blowing up the NYT building, or putting poison in Souter's creme brulee, or her really lovely 'joke' about John Walker Lindh "We need to execute him to physically intimidate liberals, and make them realise they can be killed too."

I'm not laughing.

209 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:28:42am

re: #204 The Other Les

Actually all of the named ideologies are variations on the same basic concept. That the individual exists solely to serve the collective and has no right to a life.

Seriously, the basic difference between a Fascist and a Progressive is the uniform.

Your average Progressive seems a lot more comfortable with Arts and Crafts as well. Paper Mache, colorful signs and costumes, etc

210 Flyers1974  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:28:45am

re: #153 Sharmuta

I think we're mistaken that these tactics work. Correlation is not causation. Seems to me what really helped the democrats regain Congress and the White House was republicans behaving like democrats with their drunken spending habits.

In my opinion, not only do these tactics not work, they hurt the party using them. They may motivate the base if they aren't already motivated, but these tactics also motivate the other side and discourage those less partisan.

211 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:29:01am

What's that smell?

212 Seattle Rep  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:29:01am

re: #159 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ezekiel Emanuel (Rahm's brother) and his Lancet article advocating healthcare rationing focusing on the productive 15-40 age group, from earlier this yeat

Ezekiel has also gone on record saying Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously and than patients suffering from dementia should be not be guaranteed healthcare, since they would not be "participating citizens".

Just say hello to another one of your senior White House healthcare advisors, folks.

A poster on DU says that right wing bloggers use Zeke Rahm quotes to spread fear. The poster also admits that currently the Left is not doing anything to counter Zeke's words. But the poster also says that he thinks we/the right/conservatives etc, are using evil talk radio to twist what the words actually mean.

213 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:29:15am

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

No the largest problem is that the progressive socialists are telling us to shut up...

First of all, let's drop the ad-homenim, ok? "socialists" ... it's like you got your fresh talking points with-in the last year (when that term became vogue). We are not talking about socialism, it is not close.

Second, no one is telling reasonable people to "shut up" at these meetings. Please cite a reference to someone who IS NOT disrupting
an event told to sit down and shut up.

Obama "I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

What part of "don't do a lot of talking" don't you understand? I'll do all the talking I want to.

And you should do all the talking you want to, as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights to gather and discuss these issues.

Here is the video of your quotation, above:

Youtube Video

It's pretty obvious President Obama is not talking about YOU or, in general any citizen at these town halls. He is talking about lawmakers (and people that front for them).

214 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:29:20am

re: #194 iceweasel

onanistic opus

Onanistic?

You may not have liked the book, but it didn't read as wanking.

215 katemaclaren  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:29:21am

re: #148 LionOfDixon

agree.

216 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:29:33am

re: #164 avanti

Dear Nancy Pelosi,

Could we lose the Nazi analogies please. It's a heath care bill debate, not the rise of a fascist government.

Your Pal,

avanti

217 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:30:06am

re: #202 Charles

It's not funny. It only works to co-opt a derogatory term like "mob" if you aren't really acting like a mob.

If you are acting like a mob, it sounds threatening and belligerent. Which it is.

Agreed, but when it was just people showing up to protest and they were labeled a mob you either laugh it off (and ridiclue it) or get more upset

Me,, whenver someone tries to insult me, I just laugh at them. makes them even MORE enraged

218 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:30:09am

re: #205 debutaunt

Remember the Gus character in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn?

No, sorry. I couldn't manage to read the bloody thing. It avoided flying lessons only by being a library book.

219 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:30:42am

re: #189 lawhawk

He's re: #171 avanti


Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel:

He is on extended detail as a special advisor for health policy to the director of the White House Office of Management and Budget.

Dr. Emanuel developed The Medical Directive, a comprehensive living will that has been endorsed by Consumer Reports on Health, Harvard Health Letter, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and many other publications. He has published widely on the ethics of clinical research, health care reform, international research ethics, end of life care issues, euthanasia, the ethics of managed care, and the physician-patient relationship in the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, JAMA, and many other medical journals. His book on medical ethics, The Ends of Human Life, has been widely praised and received honorable mention for the Rosenhaupt Memorial Book Award by the Woodrow Wilson Foundation.

I wonder which position he holds on the above bolded subjects.

220 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:30:47am

re: #171 avanti

His brother has what position in the administration ?

One similar to the one Jeb Bush did in the Bush administration.

221 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:31:19am

re: #174 american sabra

Sorry to hear about your dad. Without Medicare (a government funded single payer system), my mother would most likely would have died 10 years ago. She was twice saved from a life-threatening illness and had it been for private insurance, she may not have made it.

Me on the other hand, a pretty healthy middle-age person has twice been denied an MRI by my most excellent insurance company which I pay out the teeth for. We're still fighting for approval. I wish I had Medicare.

Something has to change.

Well, Medicare is the one bleeding the most right now and my parents have little choice in the matter the way things are set up now. The costs of caring for the elderly are the largest and fastest growing expense. Giving everyone a form of Medicare is not a good idea, IMHO. I am very happy I do not have Medicare.

But, you are right...our healthcare in this country does need to change. I submit that the way the Obama Administration and the Democrat controlled Congress are ramrodding their own vision down the throats of the citizens is not healthy and reeks of politics. And, I think this entire power play stinks. This is an entirely partisan exercise, are you ok with that? If you are, will you speak out when the Republicans get back into power and start force feeding you policy you do not like?

222 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:31:22am

re: #208 iceweasel

I'm not laughing. And you shouldn't. I hope you had the same outrage when the past occupant of the White House was similarly demonized

223 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:31:32am

re: #217 sattv4u2

Agreed, but when it was just people showing up to protest and they were labeled a mob you either laugh it off (and ridiclue it) or get more upset

Me,, whenver someone tries to insult me, I just laugh at them. makes them even MORE enraged

You become a mob when you disrupt a town hall meeting so severely with screams and chants that said meeting is forced to disband.

224 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:31:49am

It's apparently becoming perfectly acceptable for some on the right wing now to compare Obama to Hitler.

225 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:31:50am

Here's a link to one of the death threat stories.Town halls.

226 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:32:18am

re: #220 DaddyG

One similar to the one Jeb Bush did in the Bush administration.

What, governor of Florida?

227 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:32:21am

re: #209 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Your average Progressive seems a lot more comfortable with Arts and Crafts as well. Paper Mache, colorful signs and costumes, etc

It's an adaptation to the target audience.

In the context of Post WW1 Italy and Germany the nationalist stance and the uniforms make perfect sense. Here they had to go with the dirty hippy thing.

228 LionofDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:32:26am

re: #183 Charles

I think it is important to remember how socialism arises. There is usually a charismatic leader who promises a new age of hope and change. Social programs are usually completely reformed, with the government taking charge of health. There is a call for volunteerism or some sort of government corps to implement the plans. And most importantly, dissent is first ridiculed the outlawed.

I am not saying we are becoming Nazis...far from it. All I was alluding to was that vigorous dissent, even if it is alarming language, is a necessary attribute of a free democracy.

229 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:32:51am

re: #211 Ward Cleaver

What's that smell?

Every body look! What's going on?

230 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:32:54am

I find it ironic that our current president, who got his start in politics as a community organizer has gotten so upset that folks have been "organized" to show up at these town hall meetings. Hmmm

231 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:33:08am

re: #159 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ezekiel Emanuel (Rahm's brother) and his Lancet article advocating healthcare rationing focusing on the productive 15-40 age group, from earlier this yeat

Ezekiel has also gone on record saying Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously and than patients suffering from dementia should be not be guaranteed healthcare, since they would not be "participating citizens".

Just say hello to another one of your senior White House healthcare advisors, folks.

I've read in the past that not that many doctors take the oath anymore (maybe 30%).

232 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:33:08am

re: #216 kansas

Dear Nancy Pelosi...

I'm no fan of Nancy Pelosi, but when she said demonstrators were showing up with swastikas, she was absolutely right.

And I have no interest in making excuses for that behavior.

233 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:33:13am

re: #172 drcordell

Hahahahaha. Don't you get it, any two "bad" words can be combined to create new and awesome slurs! Like calling Obama a Nazi Socialist! Or a Fascist Commie! Pay no mind to the fact that they are completely opposing ideologies, what matters is that it sounds scary.

It makes no difference that self-declared socialists also self-indentify as progressive and share many specific positions with self-declared progressives?

234 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:33:26am

re: #219 MandyManners

Dr. Emanuel developed The Medical Directive, a comprehensive living will that has been endorsed by Consumer Reports on Health, Harvard Health Letter, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and many other publications. He has published widely on the ethics of clinical research, health care reform, international research ethics, end of life care issues, euthanasia, the ethics of managed care, and the physician-patient relationship in the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, JAMA, and many other medical journals. His book on medical ethics, The Ends of Human Life, has been widely praised and received honorable mention for the Rosenhaupt Memorial Book Award by the Woodrow Wilson Foundation.

I wonder which position he holds on the above bolded subjects.

And he's also CEO of the Soylent Green corporation.
/couldn't resist

235 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:33:41am
236 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:33:47am

re: #228 LionofDixon

I think it is important to remember how socialism arises. There is usually a charismatic leader who promises a new age of hope and change. Social programs are usually completely reformed, with the government taking charge of health. There is a call for volunteerism or some sort of government corps to implement the plans. And most importantly, dissent is first ridiculed the outlawed.

I am not saying we are becoming Nazis...far from it. All I was alluding to was that vigorous dissent, even if it is alarming language, is a necessary attribute of a free democracy.

Do you even understand that Socialism and Fascism are on the complete opposite ends of the political spectrum? Just because the Nazis labeled themselves National Socialists does not mean that fascists are socialist.

237 theheat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:33:51am

I predict the new straw man boogyman will be from the anti-abortion people, who will suggest that because the (non-plan of a health plan) plan covers abortions, that the country will suddenly become so pro-abortion that people will be forced to have them; it'll be touted in the godless liberal classrooms, and a squad of baby-haters will be going door to door to terminate pregnancies.

They never seemed to make the distinction that pro-choice didn't mean pro-abortion before Obama's FUBARD plan. But this will be the next cause they'll embrace, I betchya. Palin only nudged it with her death squad comments, but I see the idea there for the taking.

Euthanizing the elderly and forced abortions. These are the things the wingnuts will melt down about. Sort of that whole' forest for the trees' thing going on.

238 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:33:54am

re: #224 Charles

It's apparently becoming perfectly acceptable for some on the right wing now to compare Obama to Hitler.

I'm sorry, this thread is moving so fast, and I was on the phone or a minute. Charles, where/what/when did that happen.

239 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:34:06am

re: #166 Charles

Sean Hannity posted a banner at his website saying "Become a part of the mob!"

Glenn Beck has been ranting insanely about disrupting town halls for the past two weeks.

It's extremely easy to find examples of red meat right wing pundits suggesting that people go to town hall meetings deliberately to cause trouble.

I think co-opting the term "mob" is stupid, but I liken it to gays adopting the slur "queer" and turning it into a term of pride. I don't watch or listen to Beck or Hannity, but based on what you've posted here recently, I agree they're trying to stir people up. I think it's mostly a ratings ploy, and I'm not sure how many people actually act on their suggestions. I think most people going to town halls are going with the intent of behaving themselves.

240 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:34:07am

re: #232 Charles

I'm no fan of Nancy Pelosi, but when she said demonstrators were showing up with swastikas, she was absolutely right.

And I have no interest in making excuses for that behavior.

I thought she was making that up.

241 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:34:32am

re: #222 sattv4u2

I'm not laughing. And you shouldn't. I hope you had the same outrage when the past occupant of the White House was similarly demonized

Awesome. So you agree that these are mobs attacking townhalls and trying to shut down the democratic process?

242 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:34:35am

re: #232 Charles

I'm no fan of Nancy Pelosi, but when she said demonstrators were showing up with swastikas, she was absolutely right.

And I have no interest in making excuses for that behavior.

Where's the evidence they were showing up with swastikas? Wasn't it someone with an "SS" on a sign?

243 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:34:45am

re: #227 The Other Les

It's an adaptation to the target audience.

In the context of Post WW1 Italy and Germany the nationalist stance and the uniforms make perfect sense. Here they had to go with the dirty hippy thing.

Using patchouli oil to trigger latent sense memory as a form of mind control.

/

244 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:34:53am

re: #224 Charles

It's apparently becoming perfectly acceptable for some on the right wing now to compare Obama to Hitler.

More than a tad too much.

245 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:34:54am

re: #224 Charles

It's apparently becoming perfectly acceptable for some on the right wing now to compare Obama to Hitler.



I'd rather go with comparing him to Colonel Kurtz.

246 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:34:54am

re: #235 buzzsawmonkey

I find it amusing to watch the huffpo-ing and puffpo-ing in disapproval of "rightwing mobs drowning out debate" by the small cadre of posters who are proudly and avidly part of Obama lemming horde.

Their vehemence is almost sufficient to make be think that the people protesting Obamacare are doing something very, very right.

I watched more than a dozen videos in which mobs did indeed drown out the debate, in a very disgraceful way. If you want to call that "huffpo-ing" go right ahead. But denying reality doesn't become you.

247 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:00am

re: #189 lawhawk

He's re: #171 avanti


Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel:

He is on extended detail as a special advisor for health policy to the director of the White House Office of Management and Budget.

Isn't Czar Jr's a burger chain in the midwest? /

248 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:04am

re: #240 kansas

I thought she was making that up.

I think she did.

249 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:14am

re: #209 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Your average Progressive seems a lot more comfortable with Arts and Crafts as well. Paper Mache, colorful signs and costumes, etc

Everything they needed to know they learned in kindergarten.

250 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:21am

re: #224 Charles

It's apparently becoming perfectly acceptable for some on the right wing now to compare Obama to Hitler.

In the future (that's fast approaching) everyone will be Hitler for 15 minutes.

Godwin's law has been replaced with Blank_DS law. Once you've gone into derangement syndrome, calling someone Hitler is acceptable.

251 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:39am

Is iceweasel around?

I want to direct everybody's attention to something she posted in the overnight thread:

re: #582 iceweasel

One is because in my offline life I had to deal with one of the first waves of viral emails about health reform. It took me hours to run down and debunk some of those initial claims. I knew the barrage was coming-- and even I am astonished by how massive it is.

The WH wants to know what the new rumours are because of the sheer quantity and reach of them. It's no different from the Obama campaign asking people to report rumours and smears about Obama to them. The WH is looking to replicate that strategy and rebut, rebut, rebut instantly as lies flow in.

Did iceweasel just admit to working for the Democratic Party or some related PAC? I would very much like to hear what she has to say about this. Of course, she is perfectly within her rights to work for them and come here and post. But it does cast her comments in a particular partisan light. We all know she's a liberal, but now we know she's here on company time.

Interesting.

252 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:44am

re: #220 DaddyG

One similar to the one Jeb Bush did in the Bush administration.

Really?

253 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:51am

re: #232 Charles

I'm no fan of Nancy Pelosi, but when she said demonstrators were showing up with swastikas, she was absolutely right.

And I have no interest in making excuses for that behavior.

One protester showed up with a sigjn that had a swastika on it X'd out (as in NO FASCISM)

Is that not correct?

254 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:52am

re: #237 theheat

I would like to point something out: every time "assisted suicide" comes up, the people who are out there doing their best to stop it are the handicapped.

They take the implications very, very seriously.

255 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:35:54am

re: #235 buzzsawmonkey

I find it amusing to watch the huffpo-ing and puffpo-ing in disapproval of "rightwing mobs drowning out debate" by the small cadre of posters who are proudly and avidly part of Obama lemming horde.

Their vehemence is almost sufficient to make be think that the people protesting Obamacare are doing something very, very right.

The fact that people object so strongly to X, only proves that there is something to X!

Yeah. Fail.

256 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:36:03am

re: #245 The Other Les


I'd rather go with comparing him to Colonel Kurtz.

First, he'd have to get a haircut.

257 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:36:03am

re: #192 MrSilverDragon

White House Chief of Staff... You're an advocate of this administration and you don't know this?

Rahm Emanuel's brother is Chief of staff ???

258 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:36:05am

re: #138 doppelganglander


Secondly, who do you think is suggesting people go to town hall meetings with the deliberate intent of stirring up trouble, shouting people down, and generally beclowning themselves?

"Who" does not matter to me. Whether this is a coordinated effort at astro-turfing or just many random people acting stupidly at the same time, the outcome is the same.

259 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:36:26am

re: #232 Charles

I'm no fan of Nancy Pelosi, but when she said demonstrators were showing up with swastikas, she was absolutely right.

And I have no interest in making excuses for that behavior.

There were two "nazi" like symbolism at these meetings. One was a swastika with a slash through it and the other was the word "socialist" through them.

That is the international sign for "stop" as in we don't want socialism and we don't want nazism. No one was calling anyone anything, it was a rebuttal to a political direction that some people think this country is headed.

Freedom of speech.

260 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:36:58am

re: #246 Charles

I watched more than a dozen videos in which mobs did indeed drown out the debate, in a very disgraceful way. If you want to call that "huffpo-ing" go right ahead. But denying reality doesn't become you.

Does it bother you when the left does the same thing?

261 KittySaidWoof  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:36:59am

I'm from one of these single-payer European states. Actually we've got one of the best of these systems, its quite responsive and the wait times are not completely nutty like they seem to be in UK or Canada. It helps of course that my country is one of the smallest in Europe.

I just wanted to chime in and note that we actually do have death panels here (we just call them the Eternal Happyness and Fun Commissions - nah - the name is actually something boring). The point is that there are panels which make decisions that certain procedures will not get covered and the patients are then left to die. This prompts the occasional public outcry when the patient denied life-saving treatment happens to be a cute kid.

Our system also pays for abortions. A few years back the total compensation package a pregnant woman would receive was higher in the case of abortion than in the case of giving birth. The first question asked from my wife when she went to see the doctor when she was pregnant with our firstborn was when (i.e. not if or whether) she would like to come in for the abortion.

Ten years ago the amount of abortions was more than twice the number of live births, but these days there are 66,8 abortions per 100 live births. Some 84% of the abortions are for convenience, the rest have some medical reason.

262 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:02am

re: #243 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Using patchouli oil to trigger latent sense memory as a form of mind control.

/

What ever happened to that idiot who called for the patchouli putsch?

263 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:05am

re: #241 iceweasel

Awesome. So you agree that these are mobs attacking townhalls and trying to shut down the democratic process?

attacking , no

trying to shut down, again, no

Showing up, getting frustrated and too loud, yes

264 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:19am

re: #199 Ward Cleaver

The Dems have been making noises about using "reconciliation" in the Senate to get around the 60 vote obstacle, so it could get rammed through whether we like it or not. The thing is, once this thing starts to get implemented, how do you reverse it?

It will be impossible once it's started. Even if the Republicans manage to get a super majority sometime in the future, the Dems are not encumbered by the double standards of decorum and fairness as the Republicans are. They play for keeps and get down and dirty. Plus, with their willing allies in the MSM, they would fight this harder than the Republicans would fight to change it. We would need an American version of Margaret Thatcher and I do not see any of them around here, do you?

265 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:22am

re: #248 Noam Sayin'

I think she did.

Just because it wasn't shown on Fox News doesn't mean it didn't happen.

266 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:25am

re: #206 Killgore Trout

A lot of them. Too many to list. Google news: Town Hall Death Threat

That looks like a lot of stories about the same two congressmen, one in Washington State and one in North Carolina. Two death threats are two too many, but I don't think it marks a trend.

267 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:25am

re: #237 theheat

Euthanizing the elderly and forced abortions. These are the things the wingnuts will melt down about.

Some people already have melted down over it.

268 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:44am

re: #236 drcordell

I understand the terminology very well...do you? I would think not judging by your post. Most people who spew the word facism have no idea of its roots or of the political system that it is actually is. And again, I never mentioned facism, did I. I think you read into my post what you wanted to read into my post.

269 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:55am

re: #198 katemaclaren

Tried to upding your comment, Walt, to no avail. Upding won't work.

Its a plot by the White House and Congress to stifle dissent! //

270 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:37:58am

re: #224 Charles

It's apparently becoming perfectly acceptable for some on the right wing now to compare Obama to Hitler.

I'm gonna go ahead and consider such comparisons not only absurd, but quite offensive. Just as I did when mainstream Democrats compared Bush to Hitler for eight years.

271 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:38:06am

re: #242 Ward Cleaver

Where's the evidence they were showing up with swastikas? Wasn't it someone with an "SS" on a sign?

I've seen photos.

re: #260 Walter L. Newton

Does it bother you when the left does the same thing?

Try reading what I've been writing for the past 8 years.

272 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:38:07am

re: #249 Kosh's Shadow

Everything they needed to know they learned in kindergarten.

MMM, paste.

273 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:38:23am

re: #265 drcordell

Just because it wasn't shown on Fox News doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Haven't watched that channel in years, assface. Show me where it did happen.

274 Land Shark  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:38:48am

re: #236 drcordell

Do you even understand that Socialism and Fascism are on the complete opposite ends of the political spectrum? Just because the Nazis labeled themselves National Socialists does not mean that fascists are socialist.

They may be "complete opposite ends of the political spectrum", but that hasn't stopped them from using the exact same methods to suppress dissent throughout history. Tyranny is tyranny.

275 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:38:51am

re: #272 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

MMM, paste.

Yum!

276 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:38:52am

re: #251 Kenneth

This grasping of straws concerning one poster is getting a bit ridiculous, imo.

277 Bloodnok  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:39:06am

re: #251 Kenneth

You have GOT to be kidding.

278 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:39:16am

re: #224 Charles

It's apparently becoming perfectly acceptable for some on the right wing now to compare Obama to Hitler.

It's just as disgusting as when the left did it to Bush, non stop, for 8 years (and even today). It is a bad thing, whoever is doing it.

279 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:39:21am

re: #251 Kenneth

Is iceweasel around?

I want to direct everybody's attention to something she posted in the overnight thread:

Did iceweasel just admit to working for the Democratic Party or some related PAC? I would very much like to hear what she has to say about this. Of course, she is perfectly within her rights to work for them and come here and post. But it does cast her comments in a particular partisan light. We all know she's a liberal, but now we know she's here on company time.

Interesting.

I'm here. and i find it funny that anyone thinks I work for a PAC-- or the Dem Party, given than I've said many times I'm not even a Dem.

I got one of the first waves of viral emails and spent a lot of time debunking it because some parents of a friend are seniors, received it, and were terrified by it. I've been posting about all that here for two weeks-- including that explanation.

280 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:39:37am

re: #216 kansas

Dear Nancy Pelosi,

Your Pal,

avanti

She was criticizing just the sort of Nazi comparisons I was. SS emblems, and Nazi associations to our administration are not cool IMHO.

281 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:39:40am

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

There were two "nazi" like symbolism at these meetings. One was a swastika with a slash through it and the other was the word "socialist" through them.

That is the international sign for "stop" as in we don't want socialism and we don't want nazism. No one was calling anyone anything, it was a rebuttal to a political direction that some people think this country is headed.

Freedom of speech.

What? So the person holding up a sign of a swastika crossed out is saying they do not wish to have Nazism in America. And this sign was held up in direct protest of Obama's policies. But that isn't an implication that Obama's policies will lead to Nazism/fascism. That makes absolutely no sense.

282 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:39:53am

re: #278 Desert Dog

It's just as disgusting as when the left did it to Bush, non stop, for 8 years (and even today). It is a bad thing, whoever is doing it.

Seems to work better for them.

283 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:39:58am

re: #264 Desert Dog

It will be impossible once it's started. Even if the Republicans manage to get a super majority sometime in the future, the Dems are not encumbered by the double standards of decorum and fairness as the Republicans are. They play for keeps and get down and dirty. Plus, with their willing allies in the MSM, they would fight this harder than the Republicans would fight to change it. We would need an American version of Margaret Thatcher and I do not see any of them around here, do you?

The Dems would turn around and use the same scare tactics they've used on Social Security - "The Republicans want to take away your health insurance! Don't let them get away with it!"

284 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:40:16am

re: #257 avanti

Rahm Emanuel's brother is Chief of staff ???

I went based upon the subject of the original post, as the subject was Ezekiel. I was basing the context of the question on that.

285 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:40:29am

re: #280 avanti

She was criticizing just the sort of Nazi comparisons I was. SS emblems, and Nazi associations to our administration are not cool IMHO.

Cool when it was done to Bush though, huh?

286 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:40:29am

Anti-Bush demonstrators bowed a lot lower.

287 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:40:30am

"Progressive Socialists" defined.

There are people use that phrase to define themselves or their political affiliation.

More definitions here... [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's not a slur.

288 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:40:50am
289 TheMatrix31  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:40:53am

Just wake me up in four or eight years. I don't have the energy for this shit.

290 Cato  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:41:05am

Charles,

Ann Althouse's defense of Palin's "death panel" remark. Althouse is not exactly a right wing nutjob. Her source for the defense: President Obama.

[Link: althouse.blogspot.com...]

291 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:41:30am

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

There were two "nazi" like symbolism at these meetings. One was a swastika with a slash through it and the other was the word "socialist" through them.

That is the international sign for "stop" as in we don't want socialism and we don't want nazism. No one was calling anyone anything, it was a rebuttal to a political direction that some people think this country is headed.

Freedom of speech.

"That is the international sign for "stop" as in we don't want socialism and we don't want nazism"

Does that quote not infer that we might be getting Nazism Walter ? That's where we disagree.

292 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:41:48am

re: #251 Kenneth

Of course I have no way of knowing, but on its face, her post does not absolutely indicate that she is ' running down ' these emails in a professional or work capacity.
Maybe just a little overzealous ? (What a stretch that would be)...

293 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:41:49am

re: #281 drcordell

What? So the person holding up a sign of a swastika crossed out is saying they do not wish to have Nazism in America. And this sign was held up in direct protest of Obama's policies. But that isn't an implication that Obama's policies will lead to Nazism/fascism. That makes absolutely no sense.

I bet you go your shorts in a bundle every time one of your leftard buddies rolled out the Bush = Hitler sign too, eh? NOT

294 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:41:59am

re: #171 avanti

His brother has what position in the administration ?

Special adviser for health policy to the director of the White House Office of Management and Budget and member of the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research.

295 debutaunt  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:04am

re: #134 WinterCat

Oops. I updinged you accidentally. I don't like Palin's choice of words. Period. Words matter.

She sure did speak stupidly.

296 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:04am

re: #258 keithgabryelski

"Who" does not matter to me. Whether this is a coordinated effort at astro-turfing or just many random people acting stupidly at the same time, the outcome is the same.

That's funny, because I could have sworn you said the protests are obviously coordinated. Which is it?

297 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:10am

re: #288 buzzsawmonkey

As I said above, Charles, I have not watched all, or even nearly all, the videos that exist. I am sure that there are some which were over the top--though of course, unless one saw a video of each meeting in its entirety, one cannot be certain whether such over-the-top behavior was initiated by the people engaging in it, or was a reaction to an earlier provocation.

What I was referring to in #235, however, was not the behavior at the meetings themselves, but rather the moralistic condemnation of that behavior here by certain posters who, based on their pattern of apologetics for the current Administration, have no grounds to be taken seriously, since their sympathies clearly lie with whatever the Administration wants.

So by that standard one can never be sure of anything captured on video because who knows what happened previously? Come on now. Let's have a bit of intellectual honesty here.

298 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:22am

re: #252 MandyManners

Really?

I was kidding - I din't think either one was in the administration. The follow up link shows that Rahms brother has a more active role.

299 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:27am

re: #276 Sharmuta

She updinged me for that post, btw.

300 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:33am

re: #279 iceweasel

You posted in a previous thread that people will be able to "keep" their coverage if they like it. I asked you but didn't recieve (or see) an answer so I will try again


You work for a company that pays for most of your health insurance now. You like the plan. You want to KEEP the plan.
Your employer looks at the numbers at the end of the year. It costs him 15% +/- of operating expenses to kick in their portion of your benefits ( not EVEN counting short or longterm disability)
Looking at the numbers, they sees the "bill" has a provision that states if they do NOT offer a health plan they will be taxed at an 8% rate. To save 7% (+/-) they decide that as of the 1st of the year they will no longer offer health ins
As an employee there that is covered that did like your plan, what are your options?

301 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:36am

re: #293 Desert Dog

I bet you go your shorts in a bundle every time one of your leftard buddies rolled out the Bush = Hitler sign too, eh? NOT

Ad hominem argument, FTW!

302 GreenSoccer  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:36am

I disagree with Charles from the previous discussion about Palin's words because I disagree with Charles' saying that the language is voluntary about meetings. I am not saying they are mandatory but the wording is unclear so I would like the words to be cleared up. It is not a death panel (yet) for seniors but it does sound like there is being created a new actor, who does not have a relationship with the patient, and who is not a lawyer and not a doctor and not a nurse and doesn't have a code of ethics to live by that has built up over the years like the former categories mentioned have to live by. There are no protections built in that the person has to be the patient's doctor, nor that family members be present, nor informed of the meeting, nor that 2 witnesses who are not beneficiaires have to be present who attest to the competency of the person signing the document, nor that there can't be coercion that medical care can only be given if X documents are signed as a contract of adhesion or a boilerplate hard copy contract, in the same way that arbitration of fees documents have to be signed nowadays by patients to see a doctor. Read Fred Thompson's article "Phantom pains at the Post" at [Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]
There are a lot of people who hate lawyers but law has built up over the millennia by watching what happens. Robert Frost or G.K. Chesterton said "Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up." John Kennedy quoted him. Hate lawyers as much as you want but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. We need those protections that have taken forever to evolve. As someone else said "the referee and the player should not be the same person". We have already seen what happens when the same group who can make money are the same person who exercises discretion, as in a police department being able to keep the money from the sale of a property seized for drugs on the premises.
I think President Obama's medical plan is malodorous based on Charles Krauthammer's objections to it in his article “Health-Care Reform: A Better Plan”; and also Dick Morris in his book "Catastrophe" that says if you are going to increase the demand then you have to increase the supply, therefore the US has to train more doctors. The legislators should slow down and give it the serious attention changing 1/6 of the economy of the US requires. There is no law that states that legislators have to act like lemmings, (or the myth about lemmings). It is just plain common sense. Would a McDonald's give 50 million hamburgers out for free and have one employee behind the counter when they opened the door? If the government is upset at the feelings going on at townhall meetings now, when people are healthy, can you imagine what it will be like when there are people sick and dying who need medical attention? They'll go into triage immediately without even a catastrophe having to happen. I wish someone who had at least run a hot dog stand was in charge instead of someone who was a social activist and who won an uncontested election due to somebody having broken the law to get the dirt on an opponent's divorce proceedings which caused the opponent to withdraw from the election.

303 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:39am

re: #271 Charles

Try reading what I've been writing for the past 8 years.

Well, I don't like it either, and I will say it right here. But I will not tell anyone not to do it. They are adults, they will find out it the tactic works or not, and if it backfires, then it backfires.

But, I'm not going to play the same game that the progressives have been playing for years, slowly making almost any public display of opposition into a obscene event.

Nope, I say speak up, speak out, there is no such thing as politically incorrect.

There are actual laws and if someone takes their freedom of speech to the point of breaking that law, then they deserve the outcome.

Before that point, it's speech, plain and simple.

304 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:42:55am

Death Panels
End of Life Decision Panels
Mortal Coil Shuffle Advisors
Dirt Nap Procurers
Farm Buying Facilitators
Standing Committee on Dust Biting

The fun never ends when the government tells you when and how you should die.

305 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:43:00am

re: #84 Dianna

Nor should she be. I'm not in favor of ignoring anything a politician says in a prepared speech.

I'm not talking about ignoring. I mean the "big BUT" yeah, she said this, but she said this before. Mmm-hmm. Like sometimes around here people cut President Obama some slack by saying yay for him on whatever, and when they don't add a but to it, I'm proud of them. I just mean trite rubbing it the face stuff.

306 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:43:06am

Speaking of viral e-mails, I got one today, about a rousing speech at a local tea-party in April:

At the TEA PARTY in Lubbock, TX, back in April, a Black man, Dr. Donald May, delivered this message from the courthouse steps. He electrified the audience as no one has seen in a long time. His delivery was masterful. His words still burn today.

Ladies and gentlemen, This is a Time For Courage.
We are gathered here today on the Plains of West Texas in common purpose. We are here to remind our government that this is our country. We the People are still in charge, and our government is still our servant and not our master.
Our Nation's founding document is The Declaration of Independence .. It tells us that our rights come from God and not from a small group of Elite men and women.

Our President has complained that our Constitution gives ordinary people too much protection. He has ridiculed us for the high value we place on our Bibles, our guns, our personal property, and our Liberty .. He tells us we do not deserve to keep the money we have earned.
We are told freedom has not worked. Personal responsibility, free enterprise, and Liberty have not been effective. Our government will now make more of our decisions for us.

It goes in that vein for quite a while. One problem though: I know Dr. Donald May personally, he isn't black.

307 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:43:06am

re: #285 kansas

Cool when it was done to Bush though, huh?

I never said that, and I'm sick to death of we're no worse then the other guy as a justification for bad behavior.

308 Bloodnok  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #279 iceweasel

I'm here. and i find it funny that anyone thinks I work for a PAC-- or the Dem Party, given than I've said many times I'm not even a Dem.

I got one of the first waves of viral emails and spent a lot of time debunking it because some parents of a friend are seniors, received it, and were terrified by it. I've been posting about all that here for two weeks-- including that explanation.

Of course, if you really DID work for the Dems that's exactly what we'd expect you to say.

/I'm on to you/// :)

309 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:43:15am

re: #299 Kenneth

Her dings are her business, but this obsession with her is unbecoming.

310 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:43:24am

re: #299 Kenneth

If I worked for the Dems or any PAC I'd say so.

311 harpsicon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:43:29am

re: #236 drcordell

Do you even understand that Socialism and Fascism are on the complete opposite ends of the political spectrum? Just because the Nazis labeled themselves National Socialists does not mean that fascists are socialist.

Hayek disagreed with you. It's why he dedicated his Road to Serfdom to "Socialists of all parties" - he said that the different varieties all wound up with the same kind of political system, that such a system essentially assured that bad guys would get power, and that the saddest thing was when well-meaning socialists had to confront the fact that "democratic socialism" was an oxymoron.

(And since he was comparing classical liberalism with socialism generically, there's no question he would characterize today's Obama Democrats as socialist.)

You may not agree with his analysis, but a lot of very intelligent people do, and thus your comment smacks of public school sixth grade social studies.

312 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:43:55am

re: #301 drcordell

Ad hominem argument, FTW!

Pot = kettle

313 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:44:01am

re: #290 Cato

Charles,

Ann Althouse's defense of Palin's "death panel" remark. Althouse is not exactly a right wing nutjob. Her source for the defense: President Obama.

[Link: althouse.blogspot.com...]

Not convincing, sorry. And that video has a very obvious cut, right as Obama begins answering that question.

314 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:44:07am

re: #293 Desert Dog

I bet you go your shorts in a bundle every time one of your leftard buddies rolled out the Bush = Hitler sign too, eh? NOT

I did for one, and I was not alone in not supporting our fringe loons.

315 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:44:36am

Drudge's headline: more shenanigans from a Town Hall meeting in Michigan.

An irate father stands up and screams at his congressman, shouting

Under the Obama health care plan, which you support, [my son] would be given no care whatsoever, because he is a cerebral palsy handicapped person!

That's not correct, of course. It's a sad video to watch, because I think the man actually believes what he's saying, and so he's understandably beside himself with rage.

316 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:44:36am

It's more than a little ironic that the Dems gripe about vocal and organized protest against the health care grab by Joe Citizen, when for years union mobs have been paid to disrupt and even shut down everything from elections to town halls.

317 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:44:43am

re: #308 Bloodnok

Of course, if you really DID work for the Dems that's exactly what we'd expect you to say.

/I'm on to you/// :)

Shit. :(

//and I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you damn kids!

318 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:44:57am

re: #241 iceweasel

Awesome. So you agree that these are mobs attacking townhalls and trying to shut down the democratic process?

They may be trying to actually have a democratic process.

319 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:44:59am

re: #281 drcordell

What? So the person holding up a sign of a swastika crossed out is saying they do not wish to have Nazism in America. And this sign was held up in direct protest of Obama's policies. But that isn't an implication that Obama's policies will lead to Nazism/fascism. That makes absolutely no sense.

As you said yourself "lead to." No one is calling them a Nazi. But, what it may lead to, well, evidently according to some sentiment, it could be. Not my sentiment, not my opinion, but someone's opinion.

320 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:45:01am
321 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:45:04am

re: #255 iceweasel

The fact that people object so strongly to X, only proves that there is something to X!

Yeah. Fail.

You should read that again.

322 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:45:23am

Can we go with "collectivist Right" and "collectivist Left" and stop trying to go down the line with Johah Goldberg's interesting, but still controversial, analysis?

323 american sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:45:35am

re: #221 Desert Dog

Well, Medicare is the one bleeding the most right now and my parents have little choice in the matter the way things are set up now. The costs of caring for the elderly are the largest and fastest growing expense. Giving everyone a form of Medicare is not a good idea, IMHO. I am very happy I do not have Medicare.

But, you are right...our healthcare in this country does need to change. I submit that the way the Obama Administration and the Democrat controlled Congress are ramrodding their own vision down the throats of the citizens is not healthy and reeks of politics. And, I think this entire power play stinks. This is an entirely partisan exercise, are you ok with that? If you are, will you speak out when the Republicans get back into power and start force feeding you policy you do not like?

Most people do not feel the way you do about Medicare. In fact, I never heard of anyone say these things about it! Not that I don't believe you, but yours is the exception, not the rule. Medicare is a wonderful system.

On the one hand you have Rush, Beck and a whole bunch of pundits riling everyone up to go to these Town Halls and make a ruckus (I suspect many of them are hired to do so). On the other hand, you have the administration who has not been very clear at all what they are going to do. Now the bill is very big and covers a lot of things, but I think if they would at least tell people what it will and won't cover, people would feel a lot better. At least know what's going on. I have been following this like everyone else and the whole thing is very confusing.

I don't think anything will be forced fed to anyone, but we need to know what it IS. I don't think so because the Right has said lots of things about the Left. They're Nazis, they're commies, they'll take your guns, it's all BS and rhetoric.

I get frustrated and upset at the Right. The party of NO. NO to healthcare, NO to abortion, NO to stem cell research, NO to sex education, NO to planned parenthood, NO to Evolution. What they hell do they stand FOR? Some 1950's apple pie and baseball America that doesn't exist, that NEVER existed?

324 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:45:48am

re: #306 Shiplord Kirel

It goes in that vein for quite a while. One problem though: I know Dr. Donald May personally, he isn't black.

ummm,, it's summer ,,, it's Texas ,,, maybe he's just got a great TAN!?!?!

//

325 Rednek  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:45:59am

re: #304 LionOfDixon

Death Panels
End of Life Decision Panels
Mortal Coil Shuffle Advisors
Dirt Nap Procurers
Farm Buying Facilitators
Standing Committee on Dust Biting

The fun never ends when the government tells you when and how you should die.

Mortality Counseling
Undead Voter Pre-Registration.

326 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:46:14am

re: #242 Ward Cleaver

Where's the evidence they were showing up with swastikas? Wasn't it someone with an "SS" on a sign?

There is a photo of someone with a swastika with a red line through it who showed up at a meeting. I've just seen the one, but there may be more. People would do better, imo, to leave out the extreme symbols, it just gives the media (and Pelosi) something to latch onto.

327 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:46:15am

re: #300 sattv4u2

You posted in a previous thread that people will be able to "keep" their coverage if they like it. I asked you but didn't recieve (or see) an answer so I will try again

You work for a company that pays for most of your health insurance now. You like the plan. You want to KEEP the plan.
Your employer looks at the numbers at the end of the year. It costs him 15% +/- of operating expenses to kick in their portion of your benefits ( not EVEN counting short or longterm disability)
Looking at the numbers, they sees the "bill" has a provision that states if they do NOT offer a health plan they will be taxed at an 8% rate. To save 7% (+/-) they decide that as of the 1st of the year they will no longer offer health ins
As an employee there that is covered that did like your plan, what are your options?

Or, their employers plan isn't "qualifying" by government standards. The employer must switch plans or be fined a percentage of payroll. Same for individuals buying their own insurance.

328 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:46:29am

re: #307 avanti

I never said that, and I'm sick to death of we're no worse then the other guy as a justification for bad behavior.

I'm sick to death of conservatives getting bashed when the liberals did worse. Plus I don't think if the purpose of these meetings was to ask constituents what they wanted, there would be a problem, other than SEIU cracking heads. The purpose was to sell whatever talking points the congresscritters had.

329 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:46:31am

re: #319 Walter L. Newton

As you said yourself "lead to." No one is calling them a Nazi. But, what it may lead to, well, evidently according to some sentiment, it could be. Not my sentiment, not my opinion, but someone's opinion.

Obviously it's someones opinion. And that opinion they are expressing is that Obama is a Nazi. Quit twisting yourself into rhetorical knots attempting to defend the indefensible.

330 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:46:46am

re: #315 Last Mohican

Drudge's headline: more shenanigans from a Town Hall meeting in Michigan.

An irate father stands up and screams at his congressman, shouting

That's not correct, of course. It's a sad video to watch, because I think the man actually believes what he's saying, and so he's understandably beside himself with rage.

And he believes what he's saying because of statements like Palin's "death panels," and the constant drumbeat of distortions coming out of right wing radio.

331 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:46:48am

re: #290 Cato

Charles,

Ann Althouse's defense of Palin's "death panel" remark. Althouse is not exactly a right wing nutjob. Her source for the defense: President Obama.

[Link: althouse.blogspot.com...]

Youtube Video
332 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:46:50am

re: #322 Dianna

Can we go with "collectivist Right" and "collectivist Left" and stop trying to go down the line with Johah Goldberg's interesting, but still controversial, analysis?

I'll settle for socialist, okay? Basically covers it all.

333 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:46:53am

re: #279 iceweasel

Ok, thank you for your response. I accept it at your word. You have to admit, your post could honestly be read to mean that.

Anyway, I hope you have been well. I had a glorious week off at the cottage, no TV, no internet... just sun, sand, lake, books and kids.

334 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:47:12am
If Sarah Palin were to come out with a statement asking the demonstrators to refrain from intimidation and harassment, would that change your mind?

Not without more information. It's not at all clear to me who's to blame for the fights that have broken out at these things.

335 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:47:20am

re: #266 doppelganglander

That looks like a lot of stories about the same two congressmen, one in Washington State and one in North Carolina. Two death threats are two too many, but I don't think it marks a trend.

Nonsense. There are a lot of them. Arizona, Maryland, Washington, North Carolina, Missouri, etc. I know the instinct is to downplay this but reality continues no matter how much you deny it.

336 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:47:21am

re: #313 Charles

Full clip here:

Youtube Video

It chops out a bunch of umms, aws, and weasel words - calling for use of living wills and end of life care. He says we shouldn't make judgment calls on spirit. Wants to make rules for providing good quality care, but admits that the money might not be there.

Let me find that transcript for the exact language.

337 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:47:36am

re: #301 drcordell

Ad hominem argument, FTW!

Please, your comments are dripping with it...

So, I will ask you politely. Doctor, while you would read the posts over at KOS or when you attended an anti-war rally and noticed the proclivity of many of the posters and protesters to compare Bush to Hitler and his policies to Nazis, did you react with the same manner you are acting now? I submit that you did not. I am correct? Please respond without calling me a mean name, as my skin is quite thin and my feelings are easily hurt. Thank you.

338 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:47:36am

re: #290 Cato

Charles,

Ann Althouse's defense of Palin's "death panel" remark. Althouse is not exactly a right wing nutjob. Her source for the defense: President Obama.

[Link: althouse.blogspot.com...]

Uh, Althouse may not strictly speaking be right wing, but she most certainly is a nutjob. Check out her live video- logging of American Idol while drinking box wine.

//am I kidding? I wish.

Althouse=nut.

339 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:47:39am

re: #329 drcordell

Obviously it's someones opinion. And that opinion they are expressing is that Obama is a Nazi. Quit twisting yourself into rhetorical knots attempting to defend the indefensible.

You win.

340 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:47:43am

re: #300 sattv4u2

People have quoted this 8% penalty. Is that in the proposed bill? I'm only a hundred or so pages into it so far, but I haven't seen that.

Here's one point relevant to your question: even both the employer and the employee are happy with the plan, grandfathered coverage could only be extended for five years.

341 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:48:07am

Gibbsy is all into a discussion now. That's a change.

342 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:48:09am

re: #315 Last Mohican

Drudge's headline: more shenanigans from a Town Hall meeting in Michigan.

An irate father stands up and screams at his congressman, shouting

That's not correct, of course. It's a sad video to watch, because I think the man actually believes what he's saying, and so he's understandably beside himself with rage.

That's a sad example of what lies can do. The guy actually believes that, and because he does, he more then irate.

343 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:48:38am

re: #331 MandyManners

[Video]

Again -- that video has been edited. It has a very obvious cut, right as Obama begins answering the question. I don't trust it.

344 JohnnyReb  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:48:52am

re: #300 sattv4u2

You posted in a previous thread that people will be able to "keep" their coverage if they like it. I asked you but didn't recieve (or see) an answer so I will try again


You work for a company that pays for most of your health insurance now. You like the plan. You want to KEEP the plan.
Your employer looks at the numbers at the end of the year. It costs him 15% +/- of operating expenses to kick in their portion of your benefits ( not EVEN counting short or longterm disability)
Looking at the numbers, they sees the "bill" has a provision that states if they do NOT offer a health plan they will be taxed at an 8% rate. To save 7% (+/-) they decide that as of the 1st of the year they will no longer offer health ins
As an employee there that is covered that did like your plan, what are your options?

The employee will not have an option. Most companies will drop health insurance and force people to the government plan if one exists. That is plain and simple economics. Any private company will save money because there will be tax breaks built into the system. There are tax breaks built into every single tax in this country. It is a way of life in America to give breaks to certain groups. If anyone says this won't happen with health insurance they are lying.

345 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:48:54am

re: #307 avanti

I never said that, and I'm sick to death of we're no worse then the other guy as a justification for bad behavior.

Bullshit.

And aside from Charles, who has been consistent, even when I don't agree, anyone here posting from the left has no leg to stand on when criticising ANYTHING people protesting Obama do, say, dress, etc.

At all.

Bush wasn't pres 20 years ago or something.

No one has EVER had to put up with those types of images as president (from the political opposition OF HIS OWN COUNTRY).

Now that the left got away with it for 8 years, they're screaming that's it wrong when the level of vitriol is maybe 1/10th of the degree of what Bush got is directed at The One.

We all know that "dissent" only means when a Republican is in office.

If Republicans and conservatives or any degree of the "right" is critical, it has merit.

Not if it's coming from the left.

346 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:48:56am

re: #320 buzzsawmonkey

You're getting it, and you're denying it.

If you don't see an entire event, you don't know what's going on. The entire Rodney King tape, for example, shows King assaulting a number of officers repeatedly; the snippet which inflamed a nation, which merely showed him being finally subdued, gave a false impression.

Showing an angry disruption without showing what has gone immediately before its eruption is false reporting at its worst.

It's quite clear from many videos all across the internet that elected representatives are attempting to have a civil town hall discussion where questions will be answered in an orderly fashion, and a large contingent of those in the crowd repeatedly disrupts the proceedings with yelling and shouting. There are instructional handouts distributed by teabaggers groups that give explicit instructions on how to disrupt town hall meetings. This is an organized effort to stifle public forums where everyone has a fair chance to be heard. Simply because you do not wish to examine the evidence does not mean that the evidence is inconclusive.

347 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:49:16am

re: #336 lawhawk

Full clip here:

[Video]

It chops out a bunch of umms, aws, and weasel words - calling for use of living wills and end of life care. He says we shouldn't make judgment calls on spirit. Wants to make rules for providing good quality care, but admits that the money might not be there.

Let me find that transcript for the exact language.

I'm not seeing any "death panels" in his reply, sorry.

348 Rednek  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:49:24am

re: #334 NukeAtomrod

Not without more information. It's not at all clear to me who's to blame for the fights that have broken out at these things.

It would seem to me that people will become frantic and hyperbolic when their health care is threatened with out any help whatsoever. It is a very real existential threat for many.

349 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:49:28am

Has the fact that O himself has called for a single payer/aka Brit/Canadian -esque type health plan as recently as 2003 just been tossed?

350 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:49:34am

re: #335 Killgore Trout

Nonsense. There are a lot of them. Arizona, Maryland, Washington, North Carolina, Missouri, etc. I know the instinct is to downplay this but reality continues no matter how much you deny it.

I suspect many of those "death threats" are a convenient way for a congressman to cancel a meeting that may become contentious.

351 Desert Dog  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:49:48am

re: #323 american sabra

Most people do not feel the way you do about Medicare. In fact, I never heard of anyone say these things about it! Not that I don't believe you, but yours is the exception, not the rule. Medicare is a wonderful system.

On the one hand you have Rush, Beck and a whole bunch of pundits riling everyone up to go to these Town Halls and make a ruckus (I suspect many of them are hired to do so). On the other hand, you have the administration who has not been very clear at all what they are going to do. Now the bill is very big and covers a lot of things, but I think if they would at least tell people what it will and won't cover, people would feel a lot better. At least know what's going on. I have been following this like everyone else and the whole thing is very confusing.

I don't think anything will be forced fed to anyone, but we need to know what it IS. I don't think so because the Right has said lots of things about the Left. They're Nazis, they're commies, they'll take your guns, it's all BS and rhetoric.

I get frustrated and upset at the Right. The party of NO. NO to healthcare, NO to abortion, NO to stem cell research, NO to sex education, NO to planned parenthood, NO to Evolution. What they hell do they stand FOR? Some 1950's apple pie and baseball America that doesn't exist, that NEVER existed?

You need to read more on the right...we are not monsters, many of our policies and stances are quite beneficial, just as many on the left have been.

No is a familair word to me...I heard it over and over when Bush was President. That is what happens when one side loses.

352 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:50:03am

IMHO Palin has the leadership potential to get the country off the slippery slope it is now on toward rancor and division which would take decades to heal, while Obama pushes us further down the slope.

Palin, for instance, would never say "typical black person".

353 theheat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:50:14am

re: #254 Dianna

I have no problem with assisted suicide. I do have a problem with someone else deciding on when or how I might choose to do it, if I was of a mind to do it. I don't think this means euthanizing the handicapped. (And who's been telling them that, anyway? Seems like a really cruel way to scare somebody.)

That said, I do think keeping people alive, like the Shiavo case, is pro life taken to the sickest extreme. I don't believe terminal people (brain dead) need to be kept alive at all costs, or helpless to suffer to such an extreme, simply to make other people feel better about themselves or justify what they believe is part of God's plan. If that's God's plan, as they claim, I have to say the plan sucks, and I can't get behind it. If it was me on that hospital bed, I'd say pull the freakin' plug, already, because when I'm less interesting than a house plant, I don't see any point in going on.

354 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:50:21am

re: #332 Walter L. Newton

I'll settle for socialist, okay? Basically covers it all.

I don't think that's clearly descriptive enough, and just leads to fights.

Frankly, anyone who can't see that the various fascist movements were quite definitely collectivist, placing the state above the individual to a frightening extent, is blind. You don't have to call it "socialism" because - bluntly - it causes bristling hostility and distracts from the issue.

355 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:50:53am

re: #333 Kenneth

Ok, thank you for your response. I accept it at your word. You have to admit, your post could honestly be read to mean that.

Anyway, I hope you have been well. I had a glorious week off at the cottage, no TV, no internet... just sun, sand, lake, books and kids.

So glad to hear it Kenneth! I'm glad you had a good week-- it sounds great. I hope you're well.

All cool here. I understand why you might have had that reading. No worries. I really would say if I had that kind of job.

You and your family have been in my thoughts.

cheers, ice

356 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:50:53am

re: #342 avanti

That's a sad example of what lies can do. The guy actually believes that, and because he does, he more then irate.

Good for him. I'm sorry, if he is breaking the law arrest him. If he is getting in their face, good. The President set the example, it doesn't bother me. If he hits or hurts someone, arrest him, very bad. If he insults someone, too bad, buck up, take it or give it back or walk out or don't listen, but don't act like some hurt little school yard bully that runs away to mother Obama every time someone ssays something that you don't want to hear.

LOL.

357 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:51:08am

re: #350 Wendya

I suspect many of those "death threats" are a convenient way for a congressman to cancel a meeting that may become contentious.


Ugh. trying to concoct a conspiracy theory out of this isn't helping.

358 Rancher  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:51:31am

Scarce resources are allocated in many ways, in a capitalistic society they are allocated by the marketplace, in a socialist society the are allocated by the government. When that resource is medical care then a socialist system will have government bureaucrats making life and death decisions on who gets what. While the term "death panel" is dramatic I don't think it is incorrect.

359 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:51:44am

re: #346 drcordell

This is an organized effort to stifle public forums where everyone has a fair chance to be heard.

Many of those public forums are not offering "everyone" a fair chance to be heard.

360 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:52:27am

re: #296 doppelganglander

That's funny, because I could have sworn you said the protests are obviously coordinated. Which is it?

I did suggest it, it isn't the driving factor of my concern.

361 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:52:39am

re: #349 tradewind

Has the fact that O himself has called for a single payer/aka Brit/Canadian -esque type health plan as recently as 2003 just been tossed?

He gave that idea up in a deal with the insurance industry. BTW, it's very possible that the final bill will may not even have a public component.

362 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:52:40am

re: #337 Desert Dog

Please, your comments are dripping with it...

So, I will ask you politely. Doctor, while you would read the posts over at KOS or when you attended an anti-war rally and noticed the proclivity of many of the posters and protesters to compare Bush to Hitler and his policies to Nazis, did you react with the same manner you are acting now? I submit that you did not. I am correct? Please respond without calling me a mean name, as my skin is quite thin and my feelings are easily hurt. Thank you.

I never compared Bush to Hitler or condoned the use of Nazi imagery in American political discourse. The comparisons are so beyond absurd that I find it completely distasteful no matter what. And I am not reacting in any outrageous manner to the use of Nazi imagery to attack Obama. All I did was re-iterate the existence of "Obama = Hitler" imagery after numerous posters stated that Pelosi was a liar.

363 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:52:50am

re: #358 Rancher

Yes, and one of the issues here is freedom, shall the government decide or shall I, and my family with me?

364 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:52:59am

re: #322 Dianna

Can we go with "collectivist Right" and "collectivist Left" and stop trying to go down the line with Johah Goldberg's interesting, but still controversial, analysis?

Agreed. They're both forms of the unconstrained vision, but come from opposite ends of the traditional political spectrum (which dates from the Assembly just before and during the French Revolution).

365 Joan Not of Arc  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:53:09am

In bureaucratic systems, such as the health-care system in Canada, panels are formed all the time to discuss patient care, who gets it, why and the finances of it (for example, this panel). Also, provinces and states would receive block funding and would be able to cap funding, personnel and equipment (Ontario has been doing it for years). It is, therefore, not unreasonable to think that this may occur if Obama gets his health-care wish.
People should be speaking out- and strongly, too- if they are dissatisfied with the proposals. As long as things don't get carried away, fine.
Just my thoughts.

366 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:53:23am

re: #309 Sharmuta

I am not obsessed with iceweasel. She & I have a very cordial relationship. Maybe you could dial back your obsession with supervising other people's relationships?

Thanks.

367 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:53:23am

re: #357 Killgore Trout

Ugh. trying to concoct a conspiracy theory out of this isn't helping.

Neither is ignoring the cowardice of elected officials in a panic because they might have to listen to their opposition. let's see the police reports.

368 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:53:25am

re: #346 drcordell

It's quite clear from many videos all across the internet that elected representatives are attempting to have a civil town hall discussion where questions will be answered in antalking points will be regurgitated in orderly fashion, and a large contingent of those in the crowd repeatedly disrupts the proceedings with yelling and shouting. There are instructional handouts distributed by teabaggers( you know, ballsuckers) groups that give explicit instructions on how to disrupt town hall meetings. This is an organized effort to stifle public forums where everyone has a fair chance to be heard read to.

369 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:53:27am

re: #336 lawhawk

Transcript as follows of the relevant part:

SAWYER: And we have with us a couple of people who really represent the opposite ends on this spectrum too. I want to talk, if I can, to Jane Sturm.

Your mother, Hazel...

JANE STURM: Caregiver for 105-year-old mother: Yes.

SAWYER: Hazel Homer (ph), 100 years old and she wanted...

STURM: She's 105 now. Over 105. But at 100 the doctor had said to her, I can't do anything more unless you have a pacemaker. I said, go for it. She said, go for it. But the arrhythmia specialist said, no, it's too old.

Her doctor said, I'm going to make an appointment, because a picture is worth a thousand words. And when the other arrhythmia specialist saw her, saw her joy of life and so on, he said, I'm going for it.

So that was over five years ago. My question to you is, outside the medical criteria for prolonging life for somebody elderly, is there any consideration that can be given for a certain spirit, a certain joy of living, quality of life? Or is it just a medical cutoff at a certain age?

OBAMA: Well, first of all, I want to meet your mom.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: And I want to find out what's she's eating.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: But, look, the first thing for all of us to understand is that we actually have some -- some choices to make about how we want to deal with our own end-of-life care.

And that's one of the things I think that we can all promote, and this is not a big government program. This is something that each of us individually can do, is to draft and sign a living will so that we're very clear with our doctors about how we want to approach the end of life.

I don't think that we can make judgments based on peoples' spirit.

That would be a pretty subjective decision to be making. I think we have to have rules that say that we are going to provide good, quality care for all people.

GIBSON: But the money may not have been there for her pacemaker or for your grandmother's hip replacement.

OBAMA: Well, and -- and that's absolutely true. And end-of-life care is one of the most difficult sets of decisions that we're going to have to make.

I don't want bureaucracies making those decisions, but understand that those decisions are already being made in one way or another. If they're not being made under Medicare and Medicaid, they're being made by private insurers.

We don't always make those decisions explicitly. We often make those decisions by just letting people run out of money or making the deductibles so high or the out-of-pocket expenses so onerous that they just can't afford the care.

And all we're suggesting -- and we're not going to solve every difficult problem in terms of end-of-life care. A lot of that is going to have to be, we as a culture and as a society starting to make better decisions within our own families and for ourselves.

But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that's not making anybody's mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know and your mom know that, you know what? Maybe this isn't going to help. Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller.

And those kinds of decisions between doctors and patients, and making sure that our incentives are not preventing those good decision, and that -- that doctors and hospitals all are aligned for patient care, that's something we can achieve.

The painkiller quip is the one that got the attention, but the preceding sentiment - that we have to make better end-of-life decisions is one of staggering import. How does one define better? Cheaper? More expensive? Higher quality care?

Sorry for the extended post...

370 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:53:31am
371 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:53:50am

re: #301 drcordell

Ad hominem argument, FTW!

Charles got it right above with Tu Quoque.

That does not mean that a certain amount of chagrin is not justified when the amount of outrage shown to the brooks brothers mobs is disproportionate to what we have been treated to by the code pinkos for the last 8 years.

372 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:54:02am

re: #346 drcordell

It's quite clear from many videos all across the internet that elected representatives are attempting to have a civil town hall discussion where questions will be answered in an orderly fashion, and a large contingent of those in the crowd repeatedly disrupts the proceedings with yelling and shouting. There are instructional handouts distributed by teabaggers groups that give explicit instructions on how to disrupt town hall meetings. This is an organized effort to stifle public forums where everyone has a fair chance to be heard. Simply because you do not wish to examine the evidence does not mean that the evidence is inconclusive.

And even when there are cival town hall meetings, the press will lie about them. In the Denver area this weekend, we had three. Perlmutter, Degette and Polis. Even NPR reported favorably about thise meeting this morning.

Here is the AP headline...

"Rep. Polis mobbed during health care meeting"

Here is the article, nothing about any disruption...

"BOULDER, Colo.—More than 100 people swarmed to a coffee shop in Boulder to talk to Rep. Jared Polis about health care reform.
The Democrat from Boulder says his meetings in the 2nd Congressional District usually draw 30 to 40 people over two hours. But at least three times that many turned out for his session Friday.

People carrying signs for and against a health care reform plan moving through Congress crowded around Polis. He fielded questions while small clots of people argued with each other.

Polis and other members of Colorado's congressional delegation are holding meetings on health care reform during the summer recess. Polis and Rep. Diana DeGette joined House Speaker Nancy Pelosi Thursday at a Denver clinic to discuss the push to extend health insurance to some 47 million Americans without any."

The only shouting you could hear on the NPR report this morning was Obama supporters chanting "Yes we can" and "Change."

So, even civil meetings will be dishonestly misreported, even in the very same article.

373 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:54:03am

re: #361 avanti

He gave that idea up in a deal with the insurance industry. BTW, it's very possible that the final bill will may not even have a public component.

yep. Last i heard it was like 40 percent probability only on a public option.

374 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:54:03am

re: #330 Charles

And he believes what he's saying because of statements like Palin's "death panels," and the constant drumbeat of distortions coming out of right wing radio.

Agreed.

I suppose it's too much to expect every American to read the proposed bill (there's probably not even a single congressman who has read the whole thing). But I'd at least like to have these "town hall meetings" have a different format. I'd like to see a debate between reasonably informed "pro" and "con" advocates, with people allowed to sit quietly through the debate, and then ask civil questions at the end.

As it is, the signal to noise ratio is basically zero, with both sides spewing absurd statements like "Obama wants to murder all the handicapped people" and "anyone who opposes this bill is opposed to all reform of any kind."

375 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:54:15am

re: #346 drcordell

It's quite clear from many videos all across the internet that elected representatives are attempting to have a civil town hall discussion where questions will be answered in an orderly fashion, and a large contingent of those in the crowd repeatedly disrupts the proceedings with yelling and shouting.

And then there is Congressman David Scott

Youtube Video
376 realwest  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:54:29am

re: #323 american sabra
Medicare is a wonderful system? Compared to what?
I have to pay more than $700 a month and my Mom pays more than $600 a month for our Medicare coverage (most of which,btw, is prescription medications). When I was on the same exact prescription medications on regular employer provided private health insurance I had to pay $120.00 a month; on COBRA'd private health care I had to pay $505 for the exact same drugs, treatments and doctors as I now have on Medicare!
You think that's "wonderful'?

377 JEA62  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:54:31am

I'm no fan by any means, but I applaud her for doing that.

378 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:55:20am

re: #370 buzzsawmonkey


It couldn't possibly be because these citizens are expressing their dislike of the Administration's activities in no uncertain terms, could it? Heavens, no.

Heavens, no.

It would be about mobs shouting down speakers before they even get to answer a question.

379 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:55:44am

re: #338 iceweasel

Umm... so ragging on American Idol or Vodkapundit's drunk blogging invariably discounts their cogent arguments done at other times? Seriously? See my posting of the relevant transcript and the video of same. It shows a seriously warped vision of end of life care that doesn't take into account the fact that many people want to live as long as possible, costs be damned. Obama calls for better end of life choices, but what exactly is better? Define better.

380 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:55:45am

TOTUS dishes it out, hates taking it...

Youtube Video
381 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:55:55am

so the people have spoken and driven the issue to near chaos, anarchy and revolution...now what is Pelosi and her minions in the House going to do about it?...that's what I care about, not whose calling who a Nazi...that is so yesterday...what happens next?

382 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:56:22am

re: #359 Wendya

Many of those public forums are not offering "everyone" a fair chance to be heard.

What are you talking about? Give an example? These town halls are completely open to the public, no pre-screening of attendees and no pre-determination of questions. This is in direct contrast to the town halls held by the GOP just this very week! David Vitter held a town hall where the entire audience was pre-screened to prevent any dissenters from having a chance to ask questions.

SOURCE

383 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:56:32am

re: #378 iceweasel

Heavens, no.

It would be about mobs shouting down speakers before they even get to answer a question.

With a maddening talking point.

384 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:56:32am

re: #369 lawhawk

but the preceding sentiment - that we have to make better end-of-life decisions is one of staggering import. How does one define better? Cheaper? More expensive? Higher quality care?

This is a spiritual question and as we as a people have gotten away from the awareness of things spiritual and become more secular, the question becomes harder and harder.

How many now do really feel that we all go home, and fter a life well lived, it is a reward to go.

I'm just saying.

385 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:56:44am

re: #367 Wendya

They fear for their lives. It's a very real concern.

386 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:56:48am

re: #372 Walter L. Newton

The only shouting you could hear on the NPR report this morning was Obama supporters chanting "Yes we can" and "Change."

Oh brother. Well there's some "constructive debate."

387 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:57:02am

re: #366 Kenneth

You've been gone, so you haven't seen what I meant by that. You have been gentlemanly, and that's more than I can say for others. Since you're on good terms with iDub, perhaps you'd like to know she's been harassed in your absence? I was speaking to that, and apologize for mistakenly attributing that to you.

388 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:57:03am

re: #369 lawhawk

I don't want bureaucracies making those decisions, but understand that those decisions are already being made in one way or another. If they're not being made under Medicare and Medicaid, they're being made by private insurers.

And that's the point I was trying to make last night. A lot of this stuff is ALREADY in laws and bills, this new health care proposal is just a codification and gathering point for a lot of control the government already has over citizens.

But in this new proposal, ever part of it is geared to push the whole country into a eventual single payer government program, and then they will have total control over these provisions.

Don't let them fool you.

389 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:57:06am

re: #281 drcordell

What? So the person holding up a sign of a swastika crossed out is saying they do not wish to have Nazism in America. And this sign was held up in direct protest of Obama's policies. But that isn't an implication that Obama's policies will lead to Nazism/fascism. That makes absolutely no sense.

Let me start with a quote:

"It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison witht he existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned soley by the interests of the nation as a whole...that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture...The basic attitude from which such activity arises, we call -- to distinguish it from egoism and selfishness -- idealism. By this we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow men."

Now -- apart from being a bit more polished in delivery -- doesn't that sound like something that President Obama might say?

If your answer is yes, then you should start shaking in your shoes. Because that was Adolf Hitler, as quoted by Leonard Peikoff on the first page of his book The Ominous Parallels.

When one starts from the same premise, that the individual is to be totally subordinated to the state, one should now be surprised at the occurrence of the same result, slavery and murder.

390 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:57:36am
391 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:57:51am

re: #380 tradewind

TOTUS dishes it out, hates taking it...

Oh, but that was just taken out of context.

///

392 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:57:53am

re: #372 Walter L. Newton

The link (the most dishonest headline I have ever read in a long time)...

[Link: www.denverpost.com...]

393 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:58:00am

re: #375 sattv4u2

What a disgrace to his district.

394 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:58:01am

re: #365 Joan Not of Arc

In bureaucratic systems, such as the health-care system in Canada, panels are formed all the time to discuss patient care, who gets it, why and the finances of it (for example, this panel). Also, provinces and states would receive block funding and would be able to cap funding, personnel and equipment (Ontario has been doing it for years). It is, therefore, not unreasonable to think that this may occur if Obama gets his health-care wish.
People should be speaking out- and strongly, too- if they are dissatisfied with the proposals. As long as things don't get carried away, fine.
Just my thoughts.

Do they decide individual cases and treatments such as the one presented in the Obama vid Lawhawk presented above, or do they set guidelines? There is a difference between the two. "Go before a death panel" makes it out that they are hearing individual cases and prescribing.

395 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:58:27am

re: #296 doppelganglander

That's funny, because I could have sworn you said the protests are obviously coordinated. Which is it?

BTW, I'm trying to find the stories I read tracking back where these things started. I'll post them when I find them.

I saw some screen shots of a Republican Party site that advocated the disruptions as well as conservative radio hosts.

I saw further encouragement by Republicans leaders when it was already obvious the town halls were getting out of control.

396 american sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:58:37am

re: #351 Desert Dog

You need to read more on the right...we are not monsters, many of our policies and stances are quite beneficial, just as many on the left have been.

No is a familair word to me...I heard it over and over when Bush was President. That is what happens when one side loses.

Well there is one thing that both sides seem to be agreeing on, they like the input from the Blue Dogs. Don't ask me exactly what that input is! But it seems to be helping or so they say on the Sunday a.m. news shows.

My mom and I were chatting about this and she commented that since Hillary got blasted out of the water on Hilarycare in 95 (was it?) Obama is leaving this to the Congress so he doesn't look so involved or rather it's not coming from the Executive office. I don't know, but in the end, the public is left in the lurch trying to figure what's going on.

397 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:58:48am

re: #353 theheat

Let's not bring up the Shiavo case, as it both does and doesn't apply, and we'd have to spend a number of posts back-and-forth to get to agreement.

I have some uneasiness about suicide, period; but it's just that, uneasiness. Assisted suicide, though, is deeply troubling. Having talked with many handicapped people about why they worry about the idea, I understand. They fear - and they have cause - that they will be encouraged and pressured into choosing assisted suicide. Given the amount of depression many of them suffer, they have deep concerns.

398 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:59:29am

re: #382 drcordell

What are you talking about? Give an example? These town halls are completely open to the public, no pre-screening of attendees and no pre-determination of questions. This is in direct contrast to the town halls held by the GOP just this very week! David Vitter held a town hall where the entire audience was pre-screened to prevent any dissenters from having a chance to ask questions.

SOURCE

Of course Vitter has to control the content. If he didn't, somebody like me might come in and ask something like "Excuse me, Senator, but is it still your position that someone chosen by God for high office retains that elect status even after he is caught consorting with whores?"

399 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 10:59:30am

re: #368 kansas

Find me a single example of a town hall where those opposing healthcare reforms were prevented from asking questions? None of the events put on by Democrats had any pre-screening requirements at all, because the nutjob right would raise holy hell about it.

Guess who has no qualms about pre-screening attendees at their own meetings? David Vitter for one. His healthcare town hall was carefully orchestrated to ensure that no dissenting voices were allowed inside.

SOURCE


The Louisiana Republican spoke at what was billed as a town hall meeting at Louisiana College's Guinn Auditorium. It was a friendly audience but there was little chance for disagreement to be expressed.

The panel of speakers all joined Vitter in opposing the reform package being debated in Congress. Questions from audience members were screened and selected in advance of the event.

Sounds just like the town hall meetings that George Bush was so fond of having. Anyone with so much as a John Kerry bumper sticker was thrown out before they had a chance to express their first amendment rights.

400 harpsicon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:00:24am

re: #382 drcordell

Read the account of the Town Hall where the elderly black man was beaten up by SIEU thugs on Pajamas Media - it described how the seats in the hall were allocated, leaving at least half for the SIEU guys and similar bussed-in help, to the point where most ordinary people were left outside the hall. To seethe...

401 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:00:40am

re: #389 The Other Les

Let me start with a quote:

"It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison witht he existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned soley by the interests of the nation as a whole...that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture...The basic attitude from which such activity arises, we call -- to distinguish it from egoism and selfishness -- idealism. By this we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow men."

Now -- apart from being a bit more polished in delivery -- doesn't that sound like something that President Obama might say?

If your answer is yes, then you should start shaking in your shoes. Because that was Adolf Hitler, as quoted by Leonard Peikoff on the first page of his book The Ominous Parallels.

When one starts from the same premise, that the individual is to be totally subordinated to the state, one should now be surprised at the occurrence of the same result, slavery and murder.

Yes, Obama is Hitler. Thank you so much for enlightening me.

402 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:00:42am

re: #345 Ben Hur

Bullshit.

And aside from Charles, who has been consistent, even when I don't agree, anyone here posting from the left has no leg to stand on when criticising ANYTHING people protesting Obama do, say, dress, etc.

At all..

Why? Because we're from 'teh left', and therefore our opinions...what? Don't count? Aren't American enough for you?

Sorry. In my version of america, everyone has a voice. They don't get to scream down others, but they all get to speak. And I don't care what party they belong to or who they want to criticise, or whether they're 'teh left', the right, or the vast middle-- I don't think anyone has the right to tell them they have no right to criticise anything.

that goes for me, for you, for everyone.

403 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:00:49am

re: #357 Killgore Trout

That's a cynical speculation, not a conspiracy theory.

404 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:00:54am

re: #347 Charles

I was posting not to refute or substantiate the claim of "death panels", but he's clearly talking about some kind of "better" end of life health care choices. Who gets to make those decisions? A bureaucracy - whether it's an insurance company, government, doctors, or the family (or family member)? Those are fair questions, and its troubling that Obama thinks that we have to make better choices. If he's contemplating a government sanctioning better choices, that is troublesome indeed given the way that cost containment would quickly change the focus of end of life care options from preserving life to the fullest extent to managing end of life care to minimize costs.

Cost containment and preserving and extending life at end of life are often at a crossroads to each other.

405 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:02:14am

re: #398 Shiplord Kirel

Of course Vitter has to control the content. If he didn't, somebody like me might come in and ask something like "Excuse me, Senator, but is it still your position that someone chosen by God for high office retains that elect status even after he is caught consorting with whores?"

HA!

Do you now, or have you ever, worn a diaper?

///

406 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:02:15am

re: #391 Wendya

...I get the ///...
What part of Get In Their Faces do the Dems dislike? ' Cause I guess taken in context, he really meant ' Get In Republican faces , but keep outta ours'.

407 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:02:16am

re: #242 Ward Cleaver

Where's the evidence they were showing up with swastikas? Wasn't it someone with an "SS" on a sign?

It took some digging, but I found some pictures.

The site says this: Pelosi did not seem to be calling conservative protesters Nazis, but rather calling attention to the disturbing number of Nazi references at these tea party protests. A disturbing number appears to be "5 or so" from the pictures and links on that page. I would agree that it is a disturbing number, but not an extraordinary one. Especially in comparison to the display at any given SanFran protest. I'm not excusing bad behavior, just trying to put it in context.

408 realwest  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:02:16am

re: #396 american sabra
Would you mind reading my #376 directed to you?

409 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:02:20am

re: #402 iceweasel

Once again, I respectfully ask you to answer my #300 (re-asked from the previous thread)

If you care not to answer, thats fine also. But at least give me the courtesy of telling me that so I will not continue to ask (which I will)

410 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:02:24am

re: #346 drcordell

It's quite clear from many videos all across the internet that elected representatives are attempting to have a civil town hall discussion where questions will be answered in an orderly fashion, and a large contingent of those in the crowd repeatedly disrupts the proceedings with yelling and shouting. There are instructional handouts distributed by teabaggers groups that give explicit instructions on how to disrupt town hall meetings. This is an organized effort to stifle public forums where everyone has a fair chance to be heard. Simply because you do not wish to examine the evidence does not mean that the evidence is inconclusive.

I've seen some them in action:

Youtube Video
Youtube Video
Youtube Video
Youtube Video

Image: BushHitlerShitAsshole.jpg

Image: antibush-fascist-shirt-pi_mg-2_PI63.jpg

411 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:02:54am

re: #364 Honorary Yooper

Agreed. They're both forms of the unconstrained vision, but come from opposite ends of the traditional political spectrum (which dates from the Assembly just before and during the French Revolution).

Most excellent, Yooper. Exactly right. Those on the right with an unconstrained vision are not the allies we think they are.

412 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:03:06am

re: #369 lawhawk

Transcript as follows of the relevant part:

The painkiller quip is the one that got the attention, but the preceding sentiment - that we have to make better end-of-life decisions is one of staggering import. How does one define better? Cheaper? More expensive? Higher quality care?

Sorry for the extended post...

Those sorts of decisions are made daily already. i.e., if you are 85 and want a heart transplant you are unlikely to get it. The doctor may need that heart to save someone in their 40's, that is not only more likely to survive the surgery, but live much longer with it.
It's not just within the medical community that human life is assigned a value. If you could save 2 lives/year in aircraft accidents by spending 500 million on in seat air bags, they will not install them.
If it cost million to extend my life by a few months, that's a million that might save a dozen infants. Those sorts of life and death decisions are made right now with private insurance.

413 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:03:27am

re: #404 lawhawk

I was posting not to refute or substantiate the claim of "death panels", but he's clearly talking about some kind of "better" end of life health care choices. Who gets to make those decisions? A bureaucracy - whether it's an insurance company, government, doctors, or the family (or family member)? Those are fair questions, and its troubling that Obama thinks that we have to make better choices. If he's contemplating a government sanctioning better choices, that is troublesome indeed given the way that cost containment would quickly change the focus of end of life care options from preserving life to the fullest extent to managing end of life care to minimize costs.

Cost containment and preserving and extending life at end of life are often at a crossroads to each other.

This is one of the reasons why "public option" must be the redline. If you are at that point under gov't care you can still opt for supplemental and private -- in other words you have options. Not so if "public option" is mandated.

414 Flyers1974  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:03:32am

re: #345 Ben Hur

Bullshit.

And aside from Charles, who has been consistent, even when I don't agree, anyone here posting from the left has no leg to stand on when criticising ANYTHING people protesting Obama do, say, dress, etc.

At all.

Bush wasn't pres 20 years ago or something.

No one has EVER had to put up with those types of images as president (from the political opposition OF HIS OWN COUNTRY).

Now that the left got away with it for 8 years, they're screaming that's it wrong when the level of vitriol is maybe 1/10th of the degree of what Bush got is directed at The One.

We all know that "dissent" only means when a Republican is in office.

If Republicans and conservatives or any degree of the "right" is critical, it has merit.

Not if it's coming from the left.

I don't think you know whether people at LGF posting from the left either participated or approved of these tactics when committed by the left. The vitriol has reached the point it has and Obama has only been president for 7 months. I recall the Right being pretty hysterical about Bill and Hilliary. I'm not sure what you mean by the left getting away with it, as those tactics have hurt the Democrats since the Vietnam War.

415 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:03:32am

re: #390 buzzsawmonkey


You have no credibility whatsoever on this issue as far as I am concerned.

Fortunately, your opinion matters not at all. :)

416 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:03:50am

re: #360 keithgabryelski

I did suggest it, it isn't the driving factor of my concern.

Well, that's entirely different from what you said the first time. May I quote your #33?

This is the fault of the organizers that are inciting people to gather at these town halls and disrupt them AND the fault of the people that follow the directions of these organizers.
417 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:03:56am

re: #399 drcordell

Sounds just like the town hall meetings that George Bush was so fond of having. Anyone with so much as a John Kerry bumper sticker was thrown out before they had a chance to express their first amendment rights.

Find me an example of a town hall meeting where the congress person actually wanted to hear anything other than agreement or the chance to spit up talking points. And knock it off with the teabagger references while bitching about ad hominen attacks.

So Vitter had a stacked meeting, so what? Isn't he a scumbag anyway?

418 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:03:58am

re: #401 drcordell

Yes, Obama is Hitler. Thank you so much for enlightening me.

No. Obama isn't Hitler. Obama is still a problem.

419 filetandrelease  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:01am

Sarah playing politics, well good for her I suppose. Although on this matter I tend to disagree with her. There was an article on Fox ealier which I linked too that suggested the mobs are effective.

420 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:03am
421 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:05am

"Teabaggers" as prejudicial rhetoric = "Dirty hippies" as prejudicial rhetoric.

422 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:14am

re: #404 lawhawk

It may be slightly hyperbolic, but deciding that a person is too old to qualify for a particular lifesaving procedure at an arbitrary point in life might just as well be a ' death panel'.
It just makes people uncomfortable, and they'd rather call it something else.
Kind of like ' Choice'.

423 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:15am

re: #407 NukeAtomrod

It took some digging, but I found some pictures.

The site says this: Pelosi did not seem to be calling conservative protesters Nazis, but rather calling attention to the disturbing number of Nazi references at these tea party protests. A disturbing number appears to be "5 or so" from the pictures and links on that page. I would agree that it is a disturbing number, but not an extraordinary one. Especially in comparison to the display at any given SanFran protest. I'm not excusing bad behavior, just trying to put it in context.

Whether I agree with them or not (I don't), I applaud the holders of these signs for using their freedom of speech.

You can't deny that, can you?

424 Cato  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:23am

re: #313 Charles

For cuts and contrivances I must bow to you.

425 jvic  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:28am

re: #338 iceweasel

Uh, Althouse may not strictly speaking be right wing, but she most certainly is a nutjob. Check out her live video- logging of American Idol while drinking box wine.

//am I kidding? I wish.

Althouse=nut.

Ice, Althouse is arrogant and full of herself, but her record compels my respect. Going from bohemian artist to NYU Law to tenure at Wisconsin while raising a couple of kids who afaik are turning out well is no mean feat, especially for a female of her generation.

Years ago I was one of her earliest regular commenters. I got fed up with her ego and moved on. I wouldn't want to work with her.

None of that means I dismiss her talents.

426 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:43am

re: #404 lawhawk

I was posting not to refute or substantiate the claim of "death panels", but he's clearly talking about some kind of "better" end of life health care choices. Who gets to make those decisions? A bureaucracy - whether it's an insurance company, government, doctors, or the family (or family member)? Those are fair questions, and its troubling that Obama thinks that we have to make better choices. If he's contemplating a government sanctioning better choices, that is troublesome indeed given the way that cost containment would quickly change the focus of end of life care options from preserving life to the fullest extent to managing end of life care to minimize costs.

Cost containment and preserving and extending life at end of life are often at a crossroads to each other.

You're missing the entire point. Right now so many Americans do not have a living will or make any effort to plan their end of life care. Which results in millions upon millions of dollars being wasted on treatments that do not prolong the patients life, waste money, and above all decrease the quality of life for the dying patient. Obama is attempting to make these end of life planning services available to more Americans. So money is saved AND patients are afforded better quality of life.

427 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:04:57am

re: #382 drcordell

What are you talking about? Give an example?

Ben Cardin is holding a town hall... all questions must be submitted in advance and his staff will choose which questions he will answer. And how about those lovely phone-in town hall meetings being held in my state and elsewhere? All questions are pre-screened.

428 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:05:03am

re: #395 keithgabryelski

BTW, I'm trying to find the stories I read tracking back where these things started. I'll post them when I find them.

I saw some screen shots of a Republican Party site that advocated the disruptions as well as conservative radio hosts.

I saw further encouragement by Republicans leaders when it was already obvious the town halls were getting out of control.

Here's a story, probably not the one you're looking for, though (from the weekly standard).

429 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:05:18am

re: #415 iceweasel

Fortunately, your opinion matters not at all. :)

More than yours. : )

430 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:05:31am

re: #343 Charles

Again -- that video has been edited. It has a very obvious cut, right as Obama begins answering the question. I don't trust it.

Can the complete ABC clip be found? I'll look.

431 theheat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:05:44am

re: #397 Dianna

Who's feeding their fears? Certainly, they aren't basing their fear on the hundreds of thousands of handicapped people arbitrarily euthanized every year like puppies and kittens at a shelter, because that's a totally bullshit scenario. So, just who is scaring them with the boogyman campfire stories about how Obama can't wait to "put them down"?

Sounds to me like they're being manipulated and scared shitless by pro-life-at-any-cost people, the same people that thought Shiavo needed to be kept on life support forever, because there aren't any facts to back up their fears. And, frankly, I think it's cruel and predatory to not only fuel those fears, but plant them in the first place. That's some sick shit, right there.

432 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:05:56am

re: #421 jaunte

"Teabaggers" as prejudicial rhetoric = "Dirty hippies" as prejudicial rhetoric.

I always thought that "dirty hippy" was a literal description.

433 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:06:18am

re: #430 MandyManners

Can the complete ABC clip be found? I'll look.

Mandy, also look for a possible transcript of his remarks.

434 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:06:28am

"No socialist government conducting the entire life and industry of the country could afford to allow free, sharp, or violently worded expressions of public discontent. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance. And this would nip opinion in the bud; it would stop criticism as it reared its head, and it would gather all the power to the supreme party and the party leaders, rising like stately pinnacles above their vast bureaucracies of civil servants, no longer servants and no longer civil."

--Winston Churchill

435 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:06:31am

re: #382 drcordell

What are you talking about? Give an example? These town halls are completely open to the public, no pre-screening of attendees and no pre-determination of questions. This is in direct contrast to the town halls held by the GOP just this very week! David Vitter held a town hall where the entire audience was pre-screened to prevent any dissenters from having a chance to ask questions.

SOURCE

Not really completely open. Last weeks Town Hall in St. Louis had room for 500. Before the front door was open, 250 SEIU thugs came in through a side door. Prescription for disaster & the Dems love to call the protestors a mob?

436 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:06:35am

re: #396 american sabra

Obama is leaving this to the Congress so he doesn't look so involved or rather it's not coming from the Executive office. I don't know, but in the end, the public is left in the lurch trying to figure what's going on.

Obama isn't staying out of it. He's held prime-time "conferences".

437 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:06:50am

re: #409 sattv4u2

Once again, I respectfully ask you to answer my #300 (re-asked from the previous thread)

If you care not to answer, thats fine also. But at least give me the courtesy of telling me that so I will not continue to ask (which I will)

Sorry, too hypothetical (at the moment).
In the fall when we have any kind of more firm legislation I will be happy to discuss it then.

(I'm saving your post til then, btw, not ignoring it)

438 american sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:06:57am

re: #376 realwest

Medicare is a wonderful system? Compared to what?
I have to pay more than $700 a month and my Mom pays more than $600 a month for our Medicare coverage (most of which,btw, is prescription medications). When I was on the same exact prescription medications on regular employer provided private health insurance I had to pay $120.00 a month; on COBRA'd private health care I had to pay $505 for the exact same drugs, treatments and doctors as I now have on Medicare!
You think that's "wonderful'?

My mother pays like $20 a month for Medicare (which has been increasing), although she just went into the Donut Hole where she has to pay 100% for her meds, which btw cost $12,000 for a 3 month supply. That's right $12,000. She got a payer advocate company to pay it for her or else I don't know what we would have done. The coverage gap (donut hole) needs to be closed in Medicare.

I have no idea why you or your mother (assuming she's retired) pay so much for Medicare. I've never heard of that.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that drug companies and insurance companies are behind the Town Hall ruckus. They don't want ANY reform. Not when they can charge $12,000 for a 3 months supply of meds.

439 fooburger  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:07:07am

My experience is limited. I grew up with a handicapped sibling and observed the parents of many other handicapped children who were much worse off. It does not surprise me at all that a mother would take very negatively to the imposition of a nationalized health care system here. Many of these parents have had to fight insurers for basic benefits. While that is a reasonable task against a private insurance company, fighting a government bureaucracy for those same benefits would be far more daunting to most people.
While fighting insurance companies can end up in some cases going to the press and shaming an insurance company into following through on their obligations, no amount of public shaming should influence the decisions of a government panel.
I'm not characterizing what the final status of a government run health industry would look like in America, I'm just suggesting that the parent of a handicapped child would very reasonably see it as ominous as a 'death panel'.
Maybe the rest of us shouldn't be afraid of a 'death panel', but parents of handicapped children are *of necessity* over-protective. And Palin's comment stikes me as being plausibly uttered by the parent of a handicapped child. Most of us, myself include, don't really have the context to judge this, and neither does the media.

440 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:07:26am

For the record and discussion here's the actual language from the house draft on Advanced care:

5 SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.
(a) MEDICARE.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended— (A) in subsection (s)(2)—(i) by striking ‘‘and’’ at the end of
subparagraph (DD); (ii) by adding ‘‘and’’ at the end of subparagraph (EE); and (iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:
‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as defined in subsection (hhh)(1)) and (B) by adding at the end the following new
subsection: ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:

‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.

‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.

‘‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).

‘‘(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
‘‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include—

441 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:07:27am

re: #404 lawhawk

I was posting not to refute or substantiate the claim of "death panels", but he's clearly talking about some kind of "better" end of life health care choices. Who gets to make those decisions? A bureaucracy - whether it's an insurance company, government, doctors, or the family (or family member)? Those are fair questions, and its troubling that Obama thinks that we have to make better choices. If he's contemplating a government sanctioning better choices, that is troublesome indeed given the way that cost containment would quickly change the focus of end of life care options from preserving life to the fullest extent to managing end of life care to minimize costs.

Cost containment and preserving and extending life at end of life are often at a crossroads to each other.

I agree -- those are some of the most difficult questions about health insurance, no doubt. When Obama says "we need to make better decisions," that sounds like typical politician spiel to me -- ask a politician about almost anything and they'll say "we need to do better." It's how they justify their existence.

It's a simple fact that insurance deals with end of life issues now, and if America gets nationalized health care, whatever system is in place will need to deal with it then, too. Obama's statement that "we need to make better decisions" could just as easily be intended to cover situations where people are NOT getting proper end of life care.

I'm just having a very hard time seeing anything sinister in that video. At all.

442 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:07:45am

re: #384 Ojoe

This is a spiritual question and as we as a people have gotten away from the awareness of things spiritual and become more secular, the question becomes harder and harder.

How many now do really feel that we all go home, and fter a life well lived, it is a reward to go.

I'm just saying.

Whether or not people are spiritual or materialistic, it seems to me that the decision is between the person and his/her doctor.

443 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:08:04am

(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include—

‘‘(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;

‘‘(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and

‘‘(III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy). ‘‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under clause (i) to consultations furnished in a State—
‘‘(I) in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; and ‘‘(II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii). ‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that— ‘‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State; ‘‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment; ‘‘(III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; and ‘‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association.

‘‘(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is—‘‘(A) a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)); and ‘‘(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.

‘‘(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination under subsection (WW), including any related discussion during such examination, shall not be considered an advance care planning consultation for purposes of applying the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).‘‘(B) An advance care planning consultation with re18
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.

“(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.

444 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:08:07am

re: #421 jaunte

"Teabaggers" as prejudicial rhetoric = "Dirty hippies" as prejudicial rhetoric.

I guess "mangy hippies" is out too then, as in, "The frothing teabaggers chased the mangy hippies into the street and beat them with their own professionally-made SEIU signs until police arrived and tossed the whole disgusting mob in jail."

445 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:08:11am

re: #437 iceweasel

Sorry, too hypothetical (at the moment).
In the fall when we have any kind of more firm legislation I will be happy to discuss it then.

(I'm saving your post til then, btw, not ignoring it)

where in the bill is tort reform discussed?

446 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:08:18am

re: #365 Joan Not of Arc

In Canada, medical care is rationed by the fact that funding and resources are limited. People are bumped from surgery lists, long waits for MRI or other procedures considered standard in the US. Every day, boards formal and informal, make decisions on who gets served.

447 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:08:20am

re: #416 doppelganglander

Yes, I forgot to add "and those people who are independently being turds"

448 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:08:32am

re: #426 drcordell

You're missing the entire point. Right now so many Americans do not have a living will or make any effort to plan their end of life care. Which results in millions upon millions of dollars being wasted on treatments that do not prolong the patients life, waste money, and above all decrease the quality of life for the dying patient. Obama is attempting to make these end of life planning services available to more Americans. So money is saved AND patients are afforded better quality of life.

So, instead of a trillion dollar overhaul, require that everyone write a living will and advance directives. Presto chango, end of life care is necessarily easier to determine so when someone comes into a hospital, their medical care course of action is determined.

And it wont cost everyone else hundreds of billions in new taxes.

Oh, and it will help out the lawyers, since they'll be in demand to write up and assist in the preparation of living wills and advance directives.

This isn't about providing the individual with control over their own end of life care options, but controlling costs from the top down (although top is whichever bureaucracy is controlling - whether its an insurance company or the government).

449 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:08:40am

re: #434 theuglydougling

"No socialist government conducting the entire life and industry of the country could afford to allow free, sharp, or violently worded expressions of public discontent. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance. And this would nip opinion in the bud; it would stop criticism as it reared its head, and it would gather all the power to the supreme party and the party leaders, rising like stately pinnacles above their vast bureaucracies of civil servants, no longer servants and no longer civil."

--Winston Churchill

Churchill always gets an upding.

450 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:08:55am

re: #389 The Other Les

re: #401 drcordell

I don't give a rats ass about how one gets to that point. But both socialism and fascism are AUTHORITARIAN and STATIST. One arrives from the left, the other arrives from the right. Both end up a very similar looking final product. A top down, authoritarian, statist solution to problems, where the individual's sovereignty is subjected to state control and dictates.

The current health care proposals being sent down from Mt. Olympus (Capitol Hill) are just that, a statist, authoritarian solution to health care.

451 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:09:03am

re: #417 kansas

Find me an example of a town hall meeting where the congress person actually wanted to hear anything other than agreement or the chance to spit up talking points. And knock it off with the teabagger references while bitching about ad hominen attacks.

So Vitter had a stacked meeting, so what? Isn't he a scumbag anyway?

Don't you get it? That's probably all that is going to occur at any town hall. The congresscritter is going to show up with their talking points, and probably give a shitty speech to the crowd. But then the crowd is allowed to ask questions of their congressperson, and that is where the constructive dialogue begins. A bunch of people showing up at the meeting and screaming so loudly that nobody is allowed to speak, ask questions or have their questions answered accomplishes NONE OF THIS.

If the Democrats just wanted to have a chance to spout talking points without facing any dissent, they would simply shut off the meetings to anyone who didn't already agree with them. Like David Vitter did. But they didn't, did they? Because they are actually looking to address constituents who may not see eye to eye with them. And in return they get an angry mob that shouts at them until they give up. Fucking ridiculous.

452 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:09:19am

‘‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that— ‘‘(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care; ‘‘(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual; ‘‘(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and ‘‘(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual. ‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items— ‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems; ‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting; ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.’’.
(2) PAYMENT.—Section 1848(j)(3) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w–4(j)(3)) is amended by inserting‘(2)(FF),’’ after ‘‘(2)(EE),’’. (3) FREQUENCY LIMITATION.—Section 1862(a) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395y(a)) is amended— (A) in paragraph (1)— (i) in subparagraph (N), by striking ‘‘and’’ at the end; (ii) in subparagraph (O) by striking the semicolon at the end and inserting ‘‘, and’’; and (iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph: ‘‘(P) in the case of advance care planning consultations (as defined in section 1861(hhh)(1)), which are performed more frequently than is covered under such section;’’; and (B) in paragraph (7), by striking ‘‘or (K)’’ and inserting ‘‘(K), or (P)’’.

(4) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made by this subsection shall apply to consultations furnished on or after January 1, 2011. (b) EXPANSION OF PHYSICIAN QUALITY REPORTING INITIATIVE FOR END OF LIFE CARE.— (1) PHYSICIAN’S QUALITY REPORTING INITIATIVE.—Section 1848(k)(2) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w–4(k)(2)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraphs: ‘‘(3) PHYSICIAN’S QUALITY REPORTING INITIA
TIVE.—

453 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:09:27am

re: #431 theheat

I suggest you go and talk to them, not me. I have listened. You're presuming that they're victims of propaganda; I suggest you go talk to their advocates, and their memberships.

It's not like they're hard to find, and (believe me), the thing they want most of all is to be heard.

454 filetandrelease  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:09:36am

re: #427 Wendya

Ben Cardin is holding a town hall... all questions must be submitted in advance and his staff will choose which questions he will answer. And how about those lovely phone-in town hall meetings being held in my state and elsewhere? All questions are pre-screened.

Bingo! And people are furious!? Ya think!

455 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:09:37am

re: #438 american sabra

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that drug companies and insurance companies are behind the Town Hall ruckus. They don't want ANY reform. Not when they can charge $12,000 for a 3 months supply of meds.

After meeting with Obama in June, drug companies are now behind Obama Care. They're spending 150 million this month to pimp the program.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

456 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:10:04am

I just went to see my doctor today. He explained to me that the "end of life counseling" the lying demagogues are calling "death panels" involves voluntary counseling by qualified physicians or hospice-care professionals (for instance) for those patients and their families who are actually facing the terminus of a terminal illness. Which, by the way, will eventually be the case for you and me, too. It is already included in the coverage provided by many policies. There is absolutely nothing sinister about it, and to claim that it will somehow involve panels of bureaucrats deciding who is or isn't fit to live is a plain old right-wing bald-faced LIE.

ceterum censeo sententiam Sarae Palinae stultior esse not potest

457 MJ  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:10:22am

WaPo sticks up for a blogger:

'Uh-Oh They're Here'
 A persistent blogger annoys police -- and winds up in jail.

A 34-YEAR-OLD woman, the mother of a 12-year-old girl, has been locked up in a Virginia jail for three weeks and could remain there for at least another month. Her crime? Blogging about the police. ..

As the Post point's out,

"Ms. Strom is not the most sympathetic symbol of free-speech rights. She has previously advocated creating a separate, all-white nation, and her blog veers from the whimsical to the self-righteous to the bizarre. But the real problem here is the Virginia statute, in which an overly broad, ill-defined ban on harassment-by-identification, specifically in regard to police officers, seems to criminalize just about anything that might irritate targets.


[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

458 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:10:56am

re: #442 Dianna

Whether or not people are spiritual or materialistic, it seems to me that the decision is between the person and his/her doctor.

To add, if someone is spiritual, the decision should include the person's minister/priest/rabbi/guru/shaman/whatever.

459 redstateredneck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:10:58am

re: #431 theheat

Who's feeding their fears? Certainly, they aren't basing their fear on the hundreds of thousands of handicapped people arbitrarily euthanized every year like puppies and kittens at a shelter, because that's a totally bullshit scenario. So, just who is scaring them with the boogyman campfire stories about how Obama can't wait to "put them down"?

Sounds to me like they're being manipulated and scared shitless by pro-life-at-any-cost people, the same people that thought Shiavo needed to be kept on life support forever, because there aren't any facts to back up their fears. And, frankly, I think it's cruel and predatory to not only fuel those fears, but plant them in the first place. That's some sick shit, right there.

Meet Ezekial Emanuel, brother of Rahm and health policy advisor to President Obama.

460 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:11:00am

re: #423 Walter L. Newton

Whether I agree with them or not (I don't), I applaud the holders of these signs for using their freedom of speech.

You can't deny that, can you?

Not at all. Not for either set of protesters. I do however think it's stupid to invoke the Hitler boogeyman in every political statement. But, stupid or not, protesters love to do it. Might as well get used to it.

461 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:11:48am

re: #425 jvic

Ice, Althouse is arrogant and full of herself, but her record compels my respect. Going from bohemian artist to NYU Law to tenure at Wisconsin while raising a couple of kids who afaik are turning out well is no mean feat, especially for a female of her generation.

Years ago I was one of her earliest regular commenters. I got fed up with her ego and moved on. I wouldn't want to work with her.

None of that means I dismiss her talents.

She's a wacko now though, jvic. Has been for a while. I've been reading her off and on for a couple of years, and fruitloop territory.

I mean, I'm sure she's ok as a person...as a political commentator, she'd be better off continuing to liveblog American idol. IMO

(don't know if you know about Breast-Gate? )

462 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:11:55am

re: #437 iceweasel

Sorry, too hypothetical (at the moment).
In the fall when we have any kind of more firm legislation I will be happy to discuss it then.

(I'm saving your post til then, btw, not ignoring it)

You've been pontificating about what is in the "bill" (your word,,,even though it isn't one) and at the same time whenever someone quotes from it you state "oh, that won;'t be in the final bill"

So now you hide behind the "hypothetical" charade?

Staright yes or no question. IS there a line in the proposal that states there will be a tax, penalty, or some other code word that an emploer that does NOT offer coverage will be charged "X" percent?

If the answer is YES, my question is far from hypothetical

463 realwest  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:11:59am

re: #438 american sabra
Respectfully, your mother is being ripped off or mislead. The donut - where you have to pay for all of the cost of your prescriptions is limited to $4,700 (up $650 since last year). Divide that by 12 and add it to your mother's prescription costs and that's what she's paying on a monthly basis.
If she's being held up for $12,000 that is NOT WHAT THE MEDICARE GAP OR DONUT CALLS FOR. "ONLY"
$4,700 per year, thereafter you fall into the catestrophic category and pay "only" 5% of your prescription drugs.

464 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:12:03am

re: #430 MandyManners

Can the complete ABC clip be found? I'll look.

Never mind. I just saw Lawhawk's transcript at No. 369.

465 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:12:33am

re: #433 Walter L. Newton

Mandy, also look for a possible transcript of his remarks.

Lawhawk has it at No. 369.

466 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:12:37am

re: #439 fooburger

That's a very kind and balanced statement. Thank you.

467 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:12:40am

re: #426 drcordell

You're missing the entire point. Right now so many Americans do not have a living will or make any effort to plan their end of life care. Which results in millions upon millions of dollars being wasted on treatments that do not prolong the patients life, waste money, and above all decrease the quality of life for the dying patient. Obama is attempting to make these end of life planning services available to more Americans. So money is saved AND patients are afforded better quality of life.

And whose money is wasted on it right now? It's usually the one asking for the treatment and his/her insurance company. Why do you posit yourself or the government as able to make those decisions better than the patient and his/her family and his/her doctor?

468 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:12:49am

re: #462 sattv4u2

You've been answered. You don't like the answer. Tough.

469 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:13:14am

re: #428 reine.de.tout

Here's a story, probably not the one you're looking for, though (from the weekly standard).

I've read it, and understand its content.

When the same thing happens (disruptions of events such that others can't talk) across states I tend to think there is a centralized attack plan.

What do you think?

The alternative is that Republicans across the United States decided to ignore their values, all at the same time, despite their staunch opposition to similar tactics taken by Code Pink over the last decade.

470 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:13:16am

re: #455 Wendya

After meeting with Obama in June, drug companies are now behind Obama Care. They're spending 150 million this month to pimp the program.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Think the bus is big enough for the drug companies to fit under if this passes?

471 jill e  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:13:19am

Bring out your dead!

472 american sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:13:25am

re: #455 Wendya

After meeting with Obama in June, drug companies are now behind Obama Care. They're spending 150 million this month to pimp the program.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Well that's depressing. I'm not against ObamaCare. I just am not clear what it is, but if the drug companies like it, that doesn't seem to be a good sign does it?

473 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:13:26am

re: #462 sattv4u2

You've been pontificating about what is in the "bill" (your word,,,even though it isn't one) and at the same time whenever someone quotes from it you state "oh, that won;'t be in the final bill"

So now you hide behind the "hypothetical" charade?

Staright yes or no question. IS there a line in the proposal that states there will be a tax, penalty, or some other code word that an emploer that does NOT offer coverage will be charged "X" percent?

If the answer is YES, my question is far from hypothetical

It is present in the house and senate versions.

474 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:13:31am

re: #423 Walter L. Newton

Whether I agree with them or not (I don't), I applaud the holders of these signs for using their freedom of speech.

You can't deny that, can you?

I applaud the founders for allowing all speech, but I'm not particularly fond of the speech the sign holders are expressing, so no, I don't applaud them.
Just as you might applaud my freedom to call you a Nazi without reason, you might well put my butt on the ground for saying it.

475 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:14:00am

Is everyone positive that Palin's "death panel" comments even relate to end-of-life counseling?

I read them quite differently (comparative effectiveness, etc.)

476 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:14:06am

re: #426 drcordell

You're missing the entire point. Right now so many Americans do not have a living will or make any effort to plan their end of life care. Which results in millions upon millions of dollars being wasted on treatments that do not prolong the patients life, waste money, and above all decrease the quality of life for the dying patient. Obama is attempting to make these end of life planning services available to more Americans. So money is saved AND patients are afforded better quality of life.

Which part of the Constitution allows him to do that?

477 CarlKopp  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:14:09am

re: #30 badger1970

Saying "death panel" was an extreme interpretation of the perceived end of life counseling in the health care bill.

It was not just what was in the health care bill that Palin was referring to. She was also referring to the writings of Ezekiel Emmanuel (Obama's Health Care Advisor). He has written that medical care should not be guaranteed for those ...

"who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia" (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. '96).

Just this year, he wrote the following :

"Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age. ... Treating 65-yearolds differently because of stereotypes or falsehoods would be ageist; treating them differently because they have already had more life-years is not." (Lancet Jan 31, 2009 - Page 429)

The 787 Billion Dollar Stimulus Bill includes Funding for a study to compile the "productivity" based standards for deciding who is to receive care and who doesn't (precisely in the manner described by Zeke Emmanuel). When Republicans tried to insert language into the current Health Care legislation to prohibit the use of the standards resulting from that study, it was voted down.

If Palin is concerned for the well-being of her elderly parents and her disabled son, she is perfectly justified in being concerned.

The "death panel" quote might be a little extreme, but not that extreme. If you are an elderly cancer patient facing the commission that decides whether or not you are "productive" enough to deserve chemotherapy, and that commission denies your request, it is not that far out of line to refer to the commission as a "death panel" because their decision to deny life-saving treatment is in fact, a death sentence.

478 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:14:37am
These town halls are completely open to the public, no pre-screening of attendees and no pre-determination of questions.

[Link: newsbusters.org...]

[Link: boortz.com...]

Youtube Video

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Sure they are.

479 MJ  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:14:37am

re: #425 jvic

Ice, Althouse is arrogant and full of herself, but her record compels my respect. Going from bohemian artist to NYU Law to tenure at Wisconsin while raising a couple of kids who afaik are turning out well is no mean feat, especially for a female of her generation.

Years ago I was one of her earliest regular commenters. I got fed up with her ego and moved on. I wouldn't want to work with her.

None of that means I dismiss her talents.

Ann is my neighbor.

480 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:15:21am

I make no presumption of intentional malice under those driving Obamacare. I do make the logical assumption that incompetence and corruption, based on what other government programs have become, will mean it will be a failure of epic proportions.

481 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:15:53am

re: #475 Pianobuff

Is everyone positive that Palin's "death panel" comments even relate to end-of-life counseling?

I read them quite differently (comparative effectiveness, etc.)

As did I but apparently, a lot of people haven't followed the debate to the extent of the funding of Comaprative effectiveness panels and Quality adjusted life year standards.

482 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:16:25am

The wisdom of Bill Maher

Bill Maher at the Huffington Post is really sad that most people aren’t as smart as he is. If they were, then they would know what’s good for them, as he does. But they don’t. He writes:

Just because a country elects a smart president doesn’t make it a smart country. A few weeks ago I was asked by Wolf Blitzer if I thought Sarah Palin could get elected president, and I said I hope not, but I wouldn’t put anything past this stupid country. …And before I go about demonstrating how, sadly, easy it is to prove the dumbness dragging down our country, let me just say that ignorance has life and death consequences. … And I haven’t even brought up America’s religious beliefs. But here’s one fun fact you can take away: did you know only about half of Americans are aware that Judaism is an older religion than Christianity? That’s right, half of America looks at books called the Old Testament and the New Testament and cannot figure out which one came first. … Until we admit that America can make a mistake, we can’t stop the next one. A smart guy named Chesterton once said: “My country, right or wrong is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying… It is like saying ‘My mother, drunk or sober.’” To which most Americans would respond: “Are you calling my mother a drunk?”

The fundamental problem with Bill Maher’s line of reasoning is that every argument he adduces to prove the stupidity of America works against him. He says, “I wouldn’t put anything past this stupid country”. But does that include electing Barack Obama? And while he is on the subject of religious beliefs what does he call people who believe in the existence of an object they have never seen because an obscure bureaucrat emerges from a closed room and declares that it exists?

In reality what Bill Maher is really asserting is that America is sometimes smart (such as when it elects his preferred candidates or listens to him) and is sometimes dumb, such as when it disagrees with him. At all other times in between it’s in a null condition, being neither intelligent nor stupid until Bill Maher has decided his position on an issue. I think all it proves is that everyone has an opinion. Maher is entitled to think he is smart. But if he were he would understand that is not necessarily the case.

483 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:16:28am

re: #456 Cato the Elder

As I've mentioned before, every patient who is admitted to the hospital where I work is asked whether he or she has a living will or health care proxy, and, if not, whether he or she would like to discuss those issues with someone.

It's a good thing for all of us to do. Even those of us who are currently completely healthy.

484 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:16:32am

re: #451 drcordell

They learned it from watching the protesters during G.W. Bush Presidency.

485 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:16:34am

re: #456 Cato the Elder

Naturally, Cato, someone will be along shortly to tell you that neither you nor your doctor know what you're talking about.

Ave Cato! morituri te salutant

486 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:16:41am

re: #470 Kosh's Shadow

Think the bus is big enough for the drug companies to fit under if this passes?

The drug companies have agreed to 50 billion in cost reductions as part of the deal.

487 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:16:47am

re: #468 iceweasel

You've been answered. You don't like the answer. Tough.

not a question of not liking it,,, more an answer as to your (pick one)
knowledge
debate skills
veracity

488 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:17:02am

By the way, my doctor - bless his heart - is shocked that people would lie like that.

I'm not.

489 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:17:06am

re: #474 avanti

I applaud the founders for allowing all speech, but I'm not particularly fond of the speech the sign holders are expressing, so no, I don't applaud them.
Just as you might applaud my freedom to call you a Nazi without reason, you might well put my butt on the ground for saying it.

Don't speak for me, you don't know what I would do. That's a common tactic of progressives to put words into the mouth of the other speaker. You can agree or disagree with me, don't pretend you know or don't know what I would or wouldn't do. I try not to do that to you or others here.

490 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:17:07am

re: #467 Honorary Yooper

And whose money is wasted on it right now? It's usually the one asking for the treatment and his/her insurance company. Why do you posit yourself or the government as able to make those decisions better than the patient and his/her family and his/her doctor?

Read what you just wrote. It's the insurance company's money being wasted. Where do you think that money comes from? I'll give you a hint, it sure as hell isn't coming out of their profits. It's coming out of your insurance premiums.

And no, the patient and their doctor are not making these decisions. An insurance company bureaucrat is making these decisions.

491 voirdire  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:17:13am

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

492 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:17:18am

re: #468 iceweasel

re: #487 sattv4u2

not a question of not liking it,,, more an answer as to your (pick one)
knowledge
debate skills
veracity

oh ,, and character

493 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:17:20am

re: #477 CarlKopp

When Republicans tried to insert language into the current Health Care legislation to prohibit the use of the standards resulting from that study, it was voted down.

It was actually approved in the house but that doesn't mean it won't appear in the Senate version or the final version once they reconcile the bills.

494 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:17:29am

re: #482 Kenneth

You're forgetting the simplest reasoning of all. Maher is a fucking idiot.

495 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:18:29am

Feb. 9th, 2045

Dear Mr. Logan:

Congratulations on your 30th birthday. As you are aware, the Health Care Reform Act of 2010 requires that you report to your nearest Ministry of Health office to discuss your end of life directive. This end of life directive has been carefully put together for you by a panel of government experts. As such, your thoughts or suggestions are not necessary and will not be considered.

Please report no later than 30 days from this notice. Under penalty of law, you are required to bring with you your last will and testament (if you have one) and directions for the disposal of your remains. Thanks for allowing your government to serve you.
Sincerely,
The Government of the United States.

496 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:18:31am

re: #476 MandyManners

Which part of the Constitution allows him to do that?

Article II, Section I:
The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

Are you suggesting the executive does not have a guiding roll in legislation?
At least as much as the legislative branch looks to and gives him.

497 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:18:51am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

Another follower of the Obam school of public debate, only one side gets to talk...

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

498 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:18:59am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

Upding +1000. Everyone is losing right now. If anything at all gets passed it's going to be shitty because there was no meaningful debate. America is fucked.

499 theheat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:19:09am

re: #453 Dianna

What aren't victims of are facts. There is no mass extermination of the handicapped in America. There aren't any doorknockers asking if there's a handicapped person inside the house, and grabbing them like a dog catcher, to euthanize them. It's never been that way, and there's no reason to think it ever would be.

If they're sharp enough to read that much into politics, how come they haven't figured out it's bullshit? It's not like their best friend got picked up running loose in a park, and was never seen again (PTS), so now, because of Obama, that will happen even more often.

500 Last Mohican  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:19:10am

re: #495 LionOfDixon

Huh?

501 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:19:30am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

If it weren't for the opposition there would be no debate.

502 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:19:35am

re: #496 keithgabryelski

Are you suggesting the executive does not have a guiding roll in legislation?
At least as much as the legislative branch looks to and gives him.

Don't put words into my mouth.

503 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:19:40am

re: #498 drcordell

Upding +1000. Everyone is losing right now. If anything at all gets passed it's going to be shitty because there was no meaningful debate. America is fucked.

And a second follower of the Obamo's school of public debate, only one side gets to talk...

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

504 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:19:52am

re: #497 Walter L. Newton

Another follower of the Obam school of public debate, only one side gets to talk...

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

Not only is that quote old, it's taken completely out of context. Keep vomiting it up though, maybe it will taste fresher the next time it comes out.

505 avanti  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:20:01am

re: #489 Walter L. Newton

Don't speak for me, you don't know what I would do. That's a common tactic of progressives to put words into the mouth of the other speaker. You can agree or disagree with me, don't pretend you know or don't know what I would or wouldn't do. I try not to do that to you or others here.

Fair enough, perhaps you would applaud me calling you a Nazi rather then deck me, but I agree, I'm just speculating.

506 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:20:17am

If it weren't for the blue dogs, we would have a bill (whatever is in it) passed by now.

507 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:20:21am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

TRANSLATION

Now that the dems are in charge and have enough votes the debate will be limited to aggreeing!

508 american sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:20:36am

re: #463 realwest

Respectfully, your mother is being ripped off or mislead. The donut - where you have to pay for all of the cost of your prescriptions is limited to $4,700 (up $650 since last year). Divide that by 12 and add it to your mother's prescription costs and that's what she's paying on a monthly basis.
If she's being held up for $12,000 that is NOT WHAT THE MEDICARE GAP OR DONUT CALLS FOR. "ONLY"
$4,700 per year, thereafter you fall into the catestrophic category and pay "only" 5% of your prescription drugs.

You probably misunderstood me. My mother takes various meds. All combined she hit the coverage gap last month which starts at $1400 and goes up to $4700, you said? I knew it was $4000 something. Actually, she hadn't hit it, she was approaching it and Medicare told her she'd have to pay for her next prescription of $12,000. That's how I understood it. But probably if she had paid it (as if...) she'd then be out of the gap again until the end of the year when it starts over.

My point really is that this is an outrageous cost for medication. Some people make that in a year.

509 KingKenrod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:20:38am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

Are you kidding? The bill would have been signed by now without conservatives. There wouldn't have been any debate.

510 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:20:41am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

You don't debate people with the "we won" mentality.

511 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:20:42am

Until the opposition rose up, the only "meaningful debate" were one-sided talking points.

512 realwest  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:20:47am

Well given the fact that I'm 64 years old, am on SSDI and have what is currently a terminal illness (though the good folks at the Mayo clinic are now doing a huge test of a drug which they used on a small sample of men with the same exact advanced degree of cancer I have and CURED all of the men in that small sample), I'd kinda like to be approved for radiation thereapy which gives me a 90% chance of living 5 years or more; in other words, a 90% chance of getting to where that drug the Mayo Clinic is testing could CURE ME and enable me to live perhaps another 10 or 15 years, I'm not exactly an impartial judge of this "rationed health care".
So I'm gonna leave now - this rather -to me - cold and calculated cost-benefit analysis leaves me feeling less like an American than I ever have before.

513 voirdire  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:21:21am

Where's that darn sarc tag thingy . . .

514 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:21:32am

re: #487 sattv4u2

not a question of not liking it,,, more an answer as to your (pick one)
knowledge
debate skills
veracity

I answered you politely. You now want to impugn my "knowledge, debate skills, veracity (!), and character".

All this after you claimed oh so piously that if I didn't want to answer, could I pretty-please tell you that?

I gave you a polite answer and a reasonable explanation as to why your question couldn't yet be answered--not til the fall, probably

. But you're not interested in that. You're interested in acting like a tool and harassing me. Your post just proved that.

BTW, check out that word 'veracity'. It doesn't apply in the way you think it does.

Bored now.

515 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:21:33am

re: #504 drcordell

Not only is that quote old, it's taken completely out of context. Keep vomiting it up though, maybe it will taste fresher the next time it comes out.

It's not a week old and it's not out of context.

August 7, 2009 at 11:15 am - C-SPAN
Dateline: McLean, VA

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

LOL

516 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:21:39am

re: #509 KingKenrod

Are you kidding? The bill would have been signed by now without conservatives. There wouldn't have been any debate.

Are you high? If the Democrats wanted to pass the bill already they would have. They have a supermajority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. They are TRYING TO SOLICIT INPUT and getting nothing but shit in return.

517 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:21:40am

At what point does a grassroots effort become astro-turfing?

When more than 4 people come to a rally with identical hand made signs?
When a political action committee reaches 12 members or a budget over $5000.00?
When a right wing talk-show entertainer/pundit weighs in on the issue?

At what point does a group of concerned citizens become a conspiracy?
When they all go to Brooks Brothers to buy suits?
When they start passing out the Gadsen flag?
When they actually want explanations to vaguely written 1000 page proposals that will have a direct influence on their health and prosperity?

I'm not defending bad behavior on the right - I just loathe the bold faced hypocrisy of the left.

518 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:21:47am

re: #402 iceweasel

Why? Because we're from 'teh left', and therefore our opinions...what? Don't count? Aren't American enough for you?

Sorry. In my version of america, everyone has a voice. They don't get to scream down others, but they all get to speak. And I don't care what party they belong to or who they want to criticise, or whether they're 'teh left', the right, or the vast middle-- I don't think anyone has the right to tell them they have no right to criticise anything.

that goes for me, for you, for everyone.


Wow, that was a real stretch. Not American enough??

Nice try.

Didn't say you COULDN'T say it, just said that you have ZERO legs to stand on after the last 8 years.

Sorry.

Not going to buy it.

Bush was only pres 6 months ago.

I still remember.

So no, teh leftist here who are now crying about dissent and protests that don't even approach anything of the last 8 years have zero backup al all.

Sort of like the KKK complaing about racism against whites.

519 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:21:48am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

Freedom is not always tidy, debate does not always follow Robert's Rules.

520 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:21:56am

re: #502 MandyManners

Don't put words into my mouth.

Just trying to get an understanding of why you had singled out that passage
and questioned the President's roll in the development of laws.

I wasn't meant as a dig.

521 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:22:00am

re: #495 LionOfDixon

Logan is on the run.

522 harpsicon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:22:14am

Hayek was also spot on in describing how socialists invariably use "expert panels", "czars" and the like to implement policy, mostly because the legislature is just too slow, too likely to get bogged down in detail, etc.

You need essentially unlimited power to nationalize anything. In the name of efficiency, of course...

You see that going on now, whether it's the Fed, the "czars", or whatever - somehow the people's representatives no longer hold the reins of power.

Thus the need to rush through the enabling legislation, after which, the legislature having acted, it can go back to sleep while the real work of government goes on.

And he wrote 65 years ago! He didn't see any difference between Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, whatever they said. And many of the things he feared came to pass under the Labour government in England after the war - although they lost some elections and their influence was relatively limited.

He also points out the inconvenient fact that a lot of FDR's people were looking to Germany, Italy and Russia for new ideas on all of this. Oops...

So people use Hitler as a symbol for this kind of totalitarianism, probably because the average bear might not remember Mussolini or Stalin, and because the Soviet Union has been the recipient of a lot of positive spin from the left (which it doesn't deserve "but at least they gave it a try, their hearts were in the right place" etc. etc.).

The popular association of socialists with Hitler that we're seeing now thus has meaning, even if the expression is blunt and not worthy of the educated class that would make the arguments about power more subtly and rationally.

523 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:22:17am

re: #469 keithgabryelski

I've read it, and understand its content.

When the same thing happens (disruptions of events such that others can't talk) across states I tend to think there is a centralized attack plan.

What do you think?

The alternative is that Republicans across the United States decided to ignore their values, all at the same time, despite their staunch opposition to similar tactics taken by Code Pink over the last decade.

What do I think?

I don't agree with the "code pink" type of tactics, shout down your opponent.

I do know that I've seen some video of meetings where the person is getting shouted down; I've seen other edited videos of meetings where one or two people are causing a disturbance, and it's been blown up in the accompanying story as full-all-out disruption of the meeting. Then there is the meeting somebody mentioned upthread that was perfectly calm, but described in the media as people "swarming" the speaker or some such thing. The only injury to have come from these things has been the injury to Kenneth Gladney at the hands of SEIU people at one of these meetings. But Killgore said on a thread the other day that "people" are bringing guns to these meetings . . . although if there was a report he linked to about it I haven't seen it.

I don't think any of us is getting any sort of accurate information on what is truly going on in these meetings, or what is truly intended by the way this proposal is currently written. And that's making a discussion of it all the more difficult, since we are all just trying to make sense of all sorts of conflicting information. And our elected leaders are not helping matters.

524 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:22:20am

re: #495 LionOfDixon

LOL! "drcordell" has no sense of humor nor an appreciation for Logan's Run.

525 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:22:25am

re: #516 drcordell

They have the votes to pass anything, but some want to keep their seats.

526 doubter4444  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:22:51am

re: #100 Jimash

I have attended ONE townhall meeting in my town.
The issue was the planned sale of land that is now a park and baseball fields
for development of a stripmall.
Many of us in the effected area showed up. ( more than these town halls)
The committee presented their plan.
Then we shouted them down.
Concerned citizens armed with the facts then presented the facts
vehemently.
The plan was rescinded.
This is what the public meetings are for.
IF the township committee had barred the doors and refused us entrance, they would have been playing with fire.
Why should national politicians not face this democratic tradition ?
Seriously.
They need to get yelled at a little and reconsider their positions on light of
constituent outrage. Are we no longer allowed to become outraged ?
Have we already farmed out our public voice to the SEIU ?
In looking at the video coverage it would appear that the only violence I can see comes when SEIU is running the show.
If politicians cannot hand;e a tongue lashing from "Mature" but outraged people, maybe they should find another line of work.

Interesting comment. And I agree with the first part about bracing Representatives.
I go to mine and it does get rowdy from time to time. But always civil, and never personal.
These Town hall are not the same.

But to your point:
I went to a community meeting on schools in my city, and four hundred people showed up, the city meeting room held 250 max.
The meeting was postponed to find a bigger venue.
No one pounded on the doors, no one accused the mayor of denying us our voice as residents of the city. We reconvened the next week. This was not looked at as an example of the shutting up the people, it was a law, a law that was in place for a reason and respected by all. People grumbled, as I did, but only because free time is spare, and having to reschedule was a pain.

In every case that I could find (reading the local reports, and yes, I'm a freak and like to be accurate in this kind of stuff, and not just spout off) of "doors being barred" by anyone, including "SEIU Thugs" were because fire codes were in place for maximum occupancy rules.
Sorry to burst bubbles, but Christ, it's really a disappointing to read all the nonsense about this issue.
When 500 people show up to a venue that holds 150, what the hell is supposed to happen?
And that's SEIU's fault? Or the MSM's? Or the Democrats? Or Obama's?

Yes people are upset and worried but now the whole issue has changed from the real worry some have over what is happening to justifying actions that are, frankly, unjustifiable. And the rational is getting further reality.

Yes, it seems that one, (1) instance of actual violence happened and everyone is jumping on it to ride to all the way tho the "It's the other guys fault, he started it" barn, and discounting the frothing, screaming and threats from many, many others.

And what the hell is going on with new meme "SEIU is running the world" or what ever the hell it is?

Again, it's tough when reality rears it's ugly head, but that was one event that the SEIU was HOSTING, for Pete's sake.
Are we saying that trade unions can't host events?
Show me a where the SEIU "thugs" have been active at other events, please, it maybe true, but I have not seen it... and it's a Long way from the hyperbole of "Have we already farmed out our public voice to the SEIU ?", that's from this poster (no personal offense intended, there is a lot of it from a lot of people, and I just wonder where it all of a sudden sprang from).

I think there is a ton to learn and worry about in this bill, but again it's the way we are reacting to the situation that bugs the hell out me.
Mobs are wrong. Always.

527 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:23:16am

re: #503 Walter L. Newton

And a second follower of the Obamo's school of public debate, only one side gets to talk...

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

Right here.

Youtube Video
528 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:23:46am

re: #504 drcordell

Not only is that quote old, it's taken completely out of context. Keep vomiting it up though, maybe it will taste fresher the next time it comes out.

Youtube Video
529 JacksonTn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:23:48am

re: #504 drcordell

Not only is that quote old, it's taken completely out of context. Keep vomiting it up though, maybe it will taste fresher the next time it comes out.

drcordell ... um ... I am trying to remember where I last encountered people like you ... oh, yeah ... it was at the Democratic Party Caucuses ...

WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF SEIU AND OBAMA ... get use to it ... HE WON! ...

530 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:24:14am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare have a health care bill shoved down our throats without anyone even reading it.

FIFY

531 cronus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:24:17am

re: #516 drcordell

Are you high? If the Democrats wanted to pass the bill already they would have. They have a supermajority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. They are TRYING TO SOLICIT INPUT and getting nothing but shit in return.

The Democrats very clearly don't have the votes to pass a bill in the Senate. If they did than Dick Durbin wouldn't have to float the idea of shelving the public option.

532 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:24:21am

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

re: #504 drcordell

Not only is that quote old, it's taken completely out of context. Keep vomiting it up though, maybe it will taste fresher the next time it comes out.

It's not a week old and it's not out of context.

August 7, 2009 at 11:15 am - C-SPAN
Dateline: McLean, VA

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

LOL

LOL even harder...

533 voirdire  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:24:27am

Still can't find it . . . computer churning . . . gack . . .

534 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:24:41am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.


If it weren't for conservatives (and moderates) you would have a health care bill that no one has read to go with the stimulus bill that no one has read.

535 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:24:51am

re: #518 Ben Hur

Sort of like the KKK complaing about racism against whites.

Is it your position that a 'leftist' who thinks the townhall protests are mobs has no right to complain?
Are you sure you want to go with that statement?

536 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:25:06am

re: #533 voirdire

Still can't find it . . . computer churning . . . gack . . .

So you think that the conservative should shut up about this?

537 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:25:09am

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

if it weren't for liberals, MSM and Kool Aid...we wouldn't have Obama...

538 mjwsatx  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:25:15am

When people get frustrated they get angry and loud. Lots of people are very frustrated about the details of ObamaCare. This is all on Obama and the Dems who have tried to ram-rod this bill through. Obama has had more than ample opportunity to make a case for his "plan" to the American people and he has failed miserably because there is no plan. The frustration and anger which is apparent at the Townhall meetings is all on him.

539 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:25:37am

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

It's not a week old and it's not out of context.

August 7, 2009 at 11:15 am - C-SPAN
Dateline: McLean, VA

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

LOL

Watch the entire video. "The folks who created the mess" is Congress. How can you take that to mean Obama wants to stifle all national debate on healthcare? You just keep spitting this single quote out, and ignoring all of the facts. Care to provide any evidence of Obama purposefully seeking to avoid outside input on healthcare reform?

540 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:25:44am

re: #532 Walter L. Newton

LOL even harder...

kinda fun, isn't it?...

541 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:26:06am

re: #412 avanti

Those sorts of decisions are made daily already. i.e., if you are 85 and want a heart transplant you are unlikely to get it. The doctor may need that heart to save someone in their 40's, that is not only more likely to survive the surgery, but live much longer with it.
It's not just within the medical community that human life is assigned a value. If you could save 2 lives/year in aircraft accidents by spending 500 million on in seat air bags, they will not install them.
If it cost million to extend my life by a few months, that's a million that might save a dozen infants. Those sorts of life and death decisions are made right now with private insurance.

You're right that someone who is 85 and wants a heart transplant, they are unlikely to get it. But the option is still there. The concern is that in the pursuit of cutting costs, such options will be eliminated altogether in the hunt for cutting costs and "saving" money.

It's why there are transplant panels, where the merits of various patients are determined and weighed - taking the 45 and 85yo patients as an example - they might look at whether the 45 yo will follow the drug regime necessary (but what about that cost?) and whether they were drinkers/smokers/drug users, while the 85 yo abstained from drinking, smoking and other hazardous behaviors.

Automakers and airlines run cost-benefit analysis on safety equipment, and the costs may not be worth it to save 1 life in 10 million to have an airbag system on a plane, but to do so in a car crash where 1 in 10,000 could be saved is a worthwhile effort.

542 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:26:13am

re: #478 Ben Hur

[Link: newsbusters.org...]

[Link: boortz.com...]

Youtube Video

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Sure they are.

There is an election next year. Rather than respond by trying to break down the doors and throw the front-loaders into the streets, the GOP can use this as ammunition in their campaigns:

(Play video) "How can the avowedly metrosexual Congressman claim to be for free speech and transparent government when he loaded his townhall meetings with union goons, ACORN communards, and mangy Obammunist hippies?"
(Or words to that effect)

543 jill e  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:26:44am

Man vs. Mutt: In the UK, it's better to be a dog.

544 KingKenrod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:26:48am

re: #516 drcordell

Are you high? If the Democrats wanted to pass the bill already they would have. They have a supermajority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. They are TRYING TO SOLICIT INPUT and getting nothing but shit in return.


The so-called "blue dogs" are trying to keep their jobs in conservative districts, that's why they oppose the bill, and that's why there's no bill to be signed.

The Dem caucus is divided, that's the only reason why there's no conference bill.

It's got nothing to do with debate.

545 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:26:49am

re: #514 iceweasel

I answered you politely. You now want to impugn my "knowledge, debate skills, veracity (!), and character".

All this after you claimed oh so piously that if I didn't want to answer, could I pretty-please tell you that?I gave you a polite answer and a reasonable explanation as to why your question couldn't yet be answered--not til the fall, probably

. But you're not interested in that. You're interested in acting like a tool and harassing me. Your post just proved that.

BTW, check out that word 'veracity'. It doesn't apply in the way you think it does.

Bored now.

I would have preferred that, actually, instead of the disingenuous tap dance I got

BTW ,, check out the word "harassing". Guess you mean it in the same sense that those pesky constituents are "harassing" their reps by (gasp) showing up to meetings!

Oh, the humanity!

546 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:26:59am

re: #528 MandyManners

[Video]

Have you actually watched the video?

547 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:27:00am

re: #520 keithgabryelski

Just trying to get an understanding of why you had singled out that passage
and questioned the President's roll in the development of laws.

I wasn't meant as a dig.

It is not the role of the government to force us to think about advanced directives, living wills and the like. That's between an individual and her doctor and attorney.

548 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:27:16am

re: #535 iceweasel

Is it your position that a 'leftist' who thinks the townhall protests are mobs has no right to complain?
Are you sure you want to go with that statement?

goes back to credibility...complain all you want...liberals created this problem and they have to solve it

549 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:27:24am

re: #504 drcordell

Not only is that quote old, it's taken completely out of context. Keep vomiting it up though, maybe it will taste fresher the next time it comes out.

An old quote taken out of context?

Not really.

August 6, 2009: [Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

Youtube Video
550 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:27:28am

re: #353 theheat

I have no problem with assisted suicide. I do have a problem with someone else deciding on when or how I might choose to do it, if I was of a mind to do it. I don't think this means euthanizing the handicapped. (And who's been telling them that, anyway? Seems like a really cruel way to scare somebody.)

That said, I do think keeping people alive, like the Shiavo case, is pro life taken to the sickest extreme. I don't believe terminal people (brain dead) need to be kept alive at all costs, or helpless to suffer to such an extreme, simply to make other people feel better about themselves or justify what they believe is part of God's plan. If that's God's plan, as they claim, I have to say the plan sucks, and I can't get behind it. If it was me on that hospital bed, I'd say pull the freakin' plug, already, because when I'm less interesting than a house plant, I don't see any point in going on.

Not that I want to open up this can of worms today but I had real mixed feelings regarding this case. If she really was brain dead what difference did it make to her? Her parents wanted to take care of her. I think I would have said let them.

551 Land Shark  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:27:34am

re: #503 Walter L. Newton

And a second follower of the Obamo's school of public debate, only one side gets to talk...

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

That's what's starting to get people riled up. It's one thing to talk about conservatives not acting like a mob at town halls, but there's growing evidence the government of the people, by the people and for the people isn't interested in hearing what people of a certain political persuasion have to say. And if certain people who support the government do start taking it upon themselves to confront, intimidate and silence people into not opposing government initiatives then we're living in precarious times indeed.

552 fizzlogic  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:27:45am

re: #290 Cato

Althouse only pretends not be a RW nutjob.

553 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:28:01am

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

It's not a week old and it's not out of context.

August 7, 2009 at 11:15 am - C-SPAN
Dateline: McLean, VA

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

LOL

Best case of fact-checking I've seen today.

554 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:28:08am

re: #539 drcordell

Watch the entire video. "The folks who created the mess" is Congress. How can you take that to mean Obama wants to stifle all national debate on healthcare? You just keep spitting this single quote out, and ignoring all of the facts. Care to provide any evidence of Obama purposefully seeking to avoid outside input on healthcare reform?

Why are you arguing with me about an old quote. The Democrats only controlled congress for the last two years.

So, are you saying the Democrats have screwed up health care, the budget and all the other things that the left has been complaining about.

You can't have it both ways. What is it, the Dems have screwed things up or the conservatives?

555 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:28:12am

re: #547 MandyManners

It is not the role of the government to force us to think about advanced directives, living wills and the like. That's between an individual and her doctor and attorney.

The IRS would like to help you with your savings account.

556 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:28:21am

re: #553 MandyManners

Best case of fact-checking I've seen today.

Well, tied with Lawhawk.

557 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:28:30am

re: #529 JacksonTn

drcordell ... um ... I am trying to remember where I last encountered people like you ... oh, yeah ... it was at the Democratic Party Caucuses ...

WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF SEIU AND OBAMA ... get use to it ... HE WON! ...

I was talking about that the other day as well - lots of rich deja vu for Hillary supporters.

558 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:28:51am
559 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:28:51am

re: #539 drcordell

Watch the entire video. "The folks who created the mess" is Congress. How can you take that to mean Obama wants to stifle all national debate on healthcare? You just keep spitting this single quote out, and ignoring all of the facts. Care to provide any evidence of Obama purposefully seeking to avoid outside input on healthcare reform?

His calls to have this bill on his desk before August recess comes to mind. The ink wasn't even dry on the original copies before they made committee and he was already hoping to have the full bill done? Seems to me that Obama wanted limited debate precisely to take advantage of the political situation he faced - that with more scrutiny, fewer people will agree that an overhaul is required, let alone absolutely necessary before the system crashed altogether.

560 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:28:53am
561 badger1970  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:29:11am

re: #516 drcordell

They are trying to hedge their bet and bring some sucker Republicans on to the bill so when it does turn America's economy into a flaming pile of doggie do-do, the Democrats won't have to take the blame. They can say it was a "bi-partisan bill."

562 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:29:39am

re: #516 drcordell

Are you high? If the Democrats wanted to pass the bill already they would have. They have a supermajority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. They are TRYING TO SOLICIT INPUT and getting nothing but shit in return.

Well, don't forget that enough of the Dems themselves don't really want to pass it. (Blue Dogs, mostly).

But yeah, in general, it's the Dems that have this fetish for looking bi-partisan and they get nothing for it.

563 voirdire  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:29:44am

Look. It's like Nancy Pelosi said: "There's people with the facts, and then there's the people who disagree with them."

564 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:29:44am

re: #555 jaunte

The IRS would like to help you with your savings account.

The IRS can kiss my ass.

565 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:30:02am

re: #549 Wendya

An old quote taken out of context?

Not really.

August 6, 2009: [Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]


[Video]

You're the fifth fucking person to link to the video. And I still don't think any of you have watched it. Where in the context of the quote does Obama say that he means Conservatives when he says "those who created the problem." I take it to mean Congresscritters. It doesn't mean he wants to shut conservatives up.

566 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:30:22am

re: #550 WinterCat

Not that I want to open up this can of worms today but I had real mixed feelings regarding this case. If she really was brain dead what difference did it make to her? Her parents wanted to take care of her. I think I would have said let them.

I'd give you 100,000 updings, if I could, for such a logical and sensible statement. As it is, we'll have to settle for the one I can give.

567 JacksonTn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:30:34am

re: #557 Pianobuff

I was talking about that the other day as well - lots of rich deja vu for Hillary supporters.

Piano ... yes ... it is like a replay ... exact same tactics ... same spin ... I am just sitting back and watching ... it is a train wreck ... oh memories ... sweet memories ... SEIU spit in my face ... oh, yes .. love those guys ...

568 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:30:38am

Wow, Michelle Malkin is going way, way overboard with the "death panel" statement today.

569 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:31:05am

re: #565 drcordell

You're the fifth fucking person to link to the video. And I still don't think any of you have watched it. Where in the context of the quote does Obama say that he means Conservatives when he says "those who created the problem." I take it to mean Congresscritters. It doesn't mean he wants to shut conservatives up.

Good, you can count! Now maybe you can READ the full remarks on the White House website.

570 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:31:08am

re: #564 MandyManners

The IRS can kiss my ass.

line up behind me...I'm first

571 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:31:22am

re: #504 drcordell

Not only is that quote old, it's taken completely out of context. Keep vomiting it up though, maybe it will taste fresher the next time it comes out.


I saw the tape, What context is it that is missing?
It was rather clear to me that he was advising those that disagree with his grand plan to STFU!

572 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:31:25am

re: #539 drcordell

Watch the entire video. "The folks who created the mess" is Congress. How can you take that to mean Obama wants to stifle all national debate on healthcare? You just keep spitting this single quote out, and ignoring all of the facts. Care to provide any evidence of Obama purposefully seeking to avoid outside input on healthcare reform?

Don't ask me, ask Obama. He's the one that doesn't want someone talking. I'm doing a lot of talking.

Old quote LOL.

573 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:31:34am

re: #563 voirdire

Look. It's like Nancy Pelosi said: "There's people with the facts, and then there's the people who disagree with them."

Is that why she disagreed with the administration and CIA's handling of the GITMO prisoners?

574 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:31:35am

re: #470 Kosh's Shadow

Think the bus is big enough for the drug companies to fit under if this passes?

It's made by Government Motors. There will always be room under the bus.

575 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:31:56am

re: #568 Charles

Wow, Michelle Malkin is going way, way overboard with the "death panel" statement today.

Schlocking! ;^)

576 turn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:32:09am

re: #479 MJ

Ann is my neighbor.

Is she arrogant?

577 Simple Voice  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:32:23am

The term "death panel" is obviously provocative, but it is not a stretch to imagine such matters could end up in the hands of bureaucrats.

Section 1233 of the Health Reform bill that came out of congress is troubling. The section of that bill concerns end-of-life counseling. When the whole point of government provided health care is about saving money, then it follows that those in charge of the program will be inclined to find areas to cut cost.
As Charles Lane puts it,

Section 1233 lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive -- money -- to do so. Indeed, that's an incentive to insist.

No matter what party is in power, the government taking over health care is a dangerous notion on many levels. If provocative terms accurately describe the possibilities of what could occur, then I am all for being provocative.

578 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:32:36am

re: #565 drcordell

You're the fifth fucking person to link to the video. And I still don't think any of you have watched it. Where in the context of the quote does Obama say that he means Conservatives when he says "those who created the problem." I take it to mean Congresscritters. It doesn't mean he wants to shut conservatives up.

Where does he say "congress" or "congresscritters?" I must have missed that. And yes, I have listen and watched the whole video and read the transcripts of this old comment.

579 John Neverbend  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:32:47am

re: #570 albusteve

line up behind me...I'm first

Shouldn't that be "in front of me"?

580 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:32:57am

re: #547 MandyManners

It is not the role of the government to force us to think about advanced directives, living wills and the like. That's between an individual and her doctor and attorney.

But the gov't does force us to decide for us all the time in a variety of manners. E.G. You can't buy a house through a gov't program without signing a statement that basically says "yes the fine print has been discussed with me" They decide what's good and bad for us as well - fruits and vegetables are good and have no tax, cigarettes and whiskey are bad and carry taxes.

These are just some examples, there are literally thousands.

581 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:33:00am

re: #562 iceweasel

Well, don't forget that enough of the Dems themselves don't really want to pass it. (Blue Dogs, mostly).

But yeah, in general, it's the Dems that have this fetish for looking bi-partisan and they get nothing for it.

Dems Bipartisan? Then we did they cut Republicans out of having any input in the proposals?

582 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:33:27am

Hooray, another 5 spare minutes to look at an LGF thread, and already over 500 comments ;-)

re: #6 Charles

That's the point. There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize nationalized health care without absurd exaggerations like "death panels."

Point taken. However... some of the bits and pieces of the 0bamacare abomination I read made me wonder "is whoever wrote this completely tone-deaf, or secretly poison-pilling this legislation"?

Some provisions that make some sense if looked at in isolation appear in a context that simply invites interpretations like the one you mention.

It's like the private jets for congresscritters: not such an outrageous thing in itself, but in the current economic and budgetary concept simply signal either tone-deafness or contempt for the voter.

583 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:33:36am

re: #565 drcordell

You're the fifth fucking person to link to the video. And I still don't think any of you have watched it. Where in the context of the quote does Obama say that he means Conservatives when he says "those who created the problem." I take it to mean Congresscritters. It doesn't mean he wants to shut conservatives up.

Wow. So, someone who links to that is a "fucking person"? Nice respect you got going on there.

BTW, I've watched it several times. My POV is along the lines of Lawhawk's in No. 569.

584 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:33:38am

re: #560 buzzsawmonkey

The problem here--as we rocket towards 500 posts--is that nobody really knows what is in the proposal(s) being considered.

Those who are supporting "reform" here keep backing and filling, saying, "yes, that's in the bill, but it won't be in the final (how do they know?)," or "yes, that's in the bill, but it doesn't mean that (how do they know?)," or something of the sort. Any objections are denied because things either are going to change or don't mean what they say.

It is that uncertainty that people are objecting to--sometimes with decorum, sometimes rudely--coupled with the fact that the Administration attempted to ram its whatever-it-is through the Congress speedily before the recess. Undue haste and undue confusion; no wonder people are upset.

Most people agree that the system currently has too much expense, in part because it has too much waste--whether because of unnecessary tests for CYA insurance purposes, overgenerous injury awards which, though rarer than people realize, still operate to drive up premiums, the reluctance of insurance companies to pay out even if the policy demands it, etc.

But there is no reason to believe, or accept, that an initiative that nobody can agree on the basic terms of, and that cannot be clearly outlined in short form (if not 100 words or less, at least in no more than a page) is going address these very real problems. And that--along with the undue haste in which this incomprehensible mishmash is being pushed--is why people are vehemently, and rightly, opposed to it.

Not because they oppose "reform," not because they are averse to "change"--and not even because they dislike or mistrust the current occupant of the White House in general. It is because he has not made his case, but wants his initiative to be taken on faith.

That's all well and good, but where are the counter-proposals? Where has the GOP put together any substantive plan that isn't merely a set of talking points about "tort reform"? This is the exact same bullshit that the GOP used to defeat healthcare reform under Clinton. The system is totally fucked, and one political party is trying to fix it. The other seems hellbent on preserving the status quo. If the GOP actually wanted to fix healthcare and not simply destroy Obama's legislative agenda, they'd be a part of a constructive debate. Instead we have Sarah Palin talking about Obama death panels.

585 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:33:46am

re: #539 drcordell

Care to provide any evidence of Obama purposefully seeking to avoid outside input on healthcare reform?

Every single "town hall" meeting Obama has held had pre-screened questions.

586 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:33:55am

re: #568 Charles

Wow, Michelle Malkin is going way, way overboard with the "death panel" statement today.

Mobs like read meat.

Youtube Video
587 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:33:55am

re: #533 voirdire

Still can't find it . . . computer churning . . . gack . . .

Its a harsh thing to lose your sarc tag on a heated fast thread. Be strong!

588 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:33:57am

re: #565 drcordell

You're the fifth fucking person to link to the video. And I still don't think any of you have watched it. Where in the context of the quote does Obama say that he means Conservatives when he says "those who created the problem." I take it to mean Congresscritters. It doesn't mean he wants to shut conservatives up.

That makes no sense. He has been demonizing industry of all sorts in this context, particularly anybody who makes a profit.
The people he doesn't want to hear from are capitalists.

589 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:34:04am

Oops! No. 559.

590 fizzlogic  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:34:05am

Yere: #568 Charles

Scaring the elderly for political gain isn't just for Democrats anymore.

591 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:34:23am

re: #568 Charles

Wow, Michelle Malkin is going way, way overboard with the "death panel" statement today.

She's got a new book out, what do you expect?

592 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:35:08am
593 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:35:20am

re: #584 drcordell

That's all well and good, but where are the counter-proposals? Where has the GOP put together any substantive plan that isn't merely a set of talking points about "tort reform"? This is the exact same bullshit that the GOP used to defeat healthcare reform under Clinton. The system is totally fucked, and one political party is trying to fix it. The other seems hellbent on preserving the status quo. If the GOP actually wanted to fix healthcare and not simply destroy Obama's legislative agenda, they'd be a part of a constructive debate. Instead we have Sarah Palin talking about Obama death panels.


EXACTLY.

The counterproposal is like that other republican plan released on april fool's-- a budget with no numbers.

594 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:35:35am

Oh if only we could get more union thugs to show up and bust heads, then we could have real debate...

//

595 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:36:08am

re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I make no presumption of intentional malice under those driving Obamacare. I do make the logical assumption that incompetence and corruption, based on what other government programs have become, will mean it will be a failure of epic proportions.

That needs to constantly be brought up.

596 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:36:35am

re: #588 haakondahl

That makes no sense. He has been demonizing industry of all sorts in this context, particularly anybody who makes a profit.
The people he doesn't want to hear from are capitalists.

Eihter that, or if we take Dr. Cordell's spin on the statement by Obama "But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking," then Dr. Cordell is saying that it is the Democrats fault that health care is in the shape it is in, since the Democrats are the ones who have had control of Congress and the House for the last two years.

597 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:36:42am

re: #583 MandyManners

Wow. So, someone who links to that is a "fucking person"? Nice respect you got going on there.

BTW, I've watched it several times. My POV is along the lines of Lawhawk's in No. 569.

Ahem.

As LGF's top F-bomb tosser, you should blush to say that.

598 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:36:47am

re: #539 drcordell

Watch the entire video. "The folks who created the mess" is Congress. How can you take that to mean Obama wants to stifle all national debate on healthcare? You just keep spitting this single quote out, and ignoring all of the facts. Care to provide any evidence of Obama purposefully seeking to avoid outside input on healthcare reform?

So Obama really supports the town hall protesters shouting down our congresscritters. / I get it now.

599 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:36:48am

As a mother of four little boys, I understand the difference between calm speech and yelling.

Trust me.

//That said, Obamacare will kill us all--we'll drown in a sea of red tape

600 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:36:52am

re: #440 Thanos

re: #443 Thanos

re: #452 Thanos

For the record and discussion here's the actual language from the house draft on Advanced care:

One billion updings. Thank you.

601 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:37:00am

re: #578 Walter L. Newton

Where does he say "congress" or "congresscritters?" I must have missed that. And yes, I have listen and watched the whole video and read the transcripts of this old comment.

Got a link to the transcripts?

602 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:37:02am

re: #580 Thanos

But the gov't does force us to decide for us all the time in a variety of manners. E.G. You can't buy a house through a gov't program without signing a statement that basically says "yes the fine print has been discussed with me" They decide what's good and bad for us as well - fruits and vegetables are good and have no tax, cigarettes and whiskey are bad and carry taxes.

These are just some examples, there are literally thousands.

What's next? Mandatory couple's counselling before marriage? Divorce?

603 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:37:05am

re: #414 Flyers1974

I don't think you know whether people at LGF posting from the left either participated or approved of these tactics when committed by the left. The vitriol has reached the point it has and Obama has only been president for 7 months. I recall the Right being pretty hysterical about Bill and Hilliary. I'm not sure what you mean by the left getting away with it, as those tactics have hurt the Democrats since the Vietnam War.

Please.

Yes yes.

The "dissent" against Bush was cordial.

I was dreaming the last 8 years.

No Bushitler.
No Bush vampire sucking innocent blood.
No Bush as the world's biggest terrorist.
No Bush as the world's biggest criminal against humanity.
No George Bush blew up the levies.
No Farenhiet 9/11.
No "George Bush hates white people."
No George Bush MURDERED 3000 of his own countrymen.
No George Bush's war ON Iraq for $, for blood, for DIck's Halliburton.
No celebs apologizing for Bush in countries soaked in more blood than all US history.

This list can go on all day.

And the reason The One is getting so early, is that he mistakenly thought overhauling and transforming and socializing US healthcare immeadiately was a good idea. You would've thought that he'd learned from Clinton.

604 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:37:17am

re: #586 Sharmuta

Mobs like read meat.


[Video]

End run, topic change.

605 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:37:29am

re: #567 JacksonTn

Piano ... yes ... it is like a replay ... exact same tactics ... same spin ... I am just sitting back and watching ... it is a train wreck ... oh memories ... sweet memories ... SEIU spit in my face ... oh, yes .. love those guys ...

And of course this is just sheer speculation, but I'll go out on a limband suggest that of the disaffected Hillary supporters who held their nose and voted for Obama (a much larger number than the hardcore PUMAs who went the other), that this looks frighteningly familiar. Who knows if they are feeling remorse now.

The thing I'm still curious about is the real breakdown of attendees at the town halls. Some say it's all right-wing extremists, some say it's that plus cons and Rs, others say that there are also a meaningful number of moderate Democrats. I don't think anyone knows for sure the real split.

If there are an ample number of moderates (Rs + Ds), we may be witnessing a game of chicken, with the winner yet unknown.

606 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:37:51am

re: #596 Walter L. Newton

Eihter that, or if we take Dr. Cordell's spin on the statement by Obama "But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking," then Dr. Cordell is saying that it is the Democrats fault that health care is in the shape it is in, since the Democrats are the ones who have had control of Congress and the House for the last two years.

Yes because we all know that the Congress can drive a legislative agenda without the White House on board.

607 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:37:57am

I'm late for my Politburo meeting, sorry. After that I have my socialist social to attend.

Have a fun day, folks!

608 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:38:07am
609 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:38:07am

re: #602 MandyManners

What's next? Mandatory couple's counselling before marriage? Divorce?

You mean like they have in the Catholic Church? What a horrible idea!

610 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:38:09am

re: #603 Ben Hur

I am perfectly willing to let the left be the loony-toonies.

611 nonic  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:38:10am

They will not be called "death panels," but there certainly will be panels that will decide who will be allowed to receive what treatment based on standards related to those people's societal usefulness. And many people who are denied treatment will die.

Who thinks that an infant born severely premature, who will require 6 months intensive care, costing a half million to a million dollars, who is expected to leave the hospital after all that blind, deaf, mentally handicapped, and unable to walk or feed himself --- how many people think that child will be given life-saving treatment at government expense?

Who thinks that a 70-year-old person who suffers a massive stroke and is left unable to move, to speak, to feed himself, or tend to his own hygiene and toilet needs, and then develops pneumonia or a life-threatening infection, will be allowed to receive life-saving treatment for the pneumonia or infection, at government expense, so that he can continue to utterly bedridden and helpless for who knows how long?

I'm curious about how some very expensive and long-term treatment, such as for Alzheimer's or AIDS will be handled?

Palin could have said, "I don't want my parents or my disabled son to have to stand before a "Measured Medical Resources Allocation Based on Societal Benefit Calculations per Years of Useful Life and Quality Performance and Satisfaction Panel."

It would have meant the same thing. The term "death panel" -- like the accepted term "death tax" meaning estate tax -- gets to the point more quickly.

612 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:38:17am

re: #523 reine.de.tout

I don't agree with the "code pink" type of tactics, shout down your opponent.

We agree on that.

I do know that I've seen some video of meetings where the person is getting shouted down; I've seen other edited videos of meetings where one or two people are causing a disturbance, and it's been blown up in the accompanying story as full-all-out disruption of the meeting.

Can you give me a reference to the original video and the edited video. I'd like to understand who edited the video for future reference.

Then there is the meeting somebody mentioned upthread that was perfectly calm, but described in the media as people "swarming" the speaker or some such thing. The only injury to have come from these things has been the injury to Kenneth Gladney at the hands of SEIU people at one of these meetings.

Yeah, I've been away from a laptop on an off the last weeks so I haven't been able to see videos that are flash based (iphone only access). I need to understand this Gladney issue.

Did he instigate the confrontation? I really don't know what happened there.

But Killgore said on a thread the other day that "people" are bringing guns to these meetings . . . although if there was a report he linked to about it I haven't seen it.

There was some guy on twitter suggesting anyone with a concealed weapons permit should use it to bring in weapons to these events.
He also suggested people should "hurt acorn/seiu people badly" (the actual quote is "If ACORN/SEIU attends these townhalls for disruption, stop being peaceful and hurt them. Badly #iamthemob")

613 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:38:32am

re: #592 taxfreekiller

Has any one outside Pelosi's and Wachman's offices seen any of the amendments the Democrats intend to add on the day the bill passes.

How many pages, what do they amend, how long will the debate be if any?

What about the amendment of which Dingle spoke that addresses the disabled?

614 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:38:39am

re: #593 iceweasel

EXACTLY.

The counterproposal is like that other republican plan released on april fool's-- a budget with no numbers.

you should just concede the issue...it's a bad proposal and even worse presentation...it is splitting the donks and middle America is pissed...it's a loser and I think you know it

615 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:38:49am

re: #560 buzzsawmonkey

Time is the problem. If we are behaving like a bunch of unruly cattle, it is because we are being stampeded toward an uncertain fate.

616 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:39:03am

re: #531 cronus

The Democrats very clearly don't have the votes to pass a bill in the Senate. If they did than Dick Durbin wouldn't have to float the idea of shelving the public option.


Dick Durban?

The Republican that called our soldiers Nazi camp guards, etc?

617 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:39:24am

re: #602 MandyManners

What's next? Mandatory couple's counselling before marriage? Divorce?

It could happen -- the people who think they know what's best for you as individual even though they know nothing about you sit on both sides of the aisle in congress.

618 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:39:36am

re: #595 Dianna

That needs to constantly be brought up.

busting Nazis is more important...style over substance

619 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:12am

re: #429 kansas

More than yours. : )

I wouldn't count on that.

620 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:13am

re: #584 drcordell

That's all well and good, but where are the counter-proposals

From Rep Paul Ryan et al
[Link: www.opencongress.org...]

Newt Gingrich, et al

[Link: www.healthtransformation.net...]

621 doubter4444  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:13am

re: #548 albusteve

goes back to credibility...complain all you want...liberals created this problem and they have to solve it

Liberals created what problem?
The problem of the racous Town Halls?
or or the mess in the Health Care sector?

622 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:13am

re: #597 Cato the Elder

Ahem.

As LGF's top F-bomb tosser, you should blush to say that.

It's the manner in which he used it. He called each of those Lizards a "fucking person".

623 voirdire  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:14am

re: #587 DaddyG

Its a harsh thing to lose your sarc tag on a heated fast thread. Be strong!

Lifeline caught . . . too late . . . computer locked u

624 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:15am

re: #606 drcordell

Yes because we all know that the Congress can drive a legislative agenda without the White House on board.

If it's veto proof, yes they can.
If not, no they can't.

625 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:15am

re: #609 Cato the Elder

You mean like they have in the Catholic Church? What a horrible idea!

But one does not have to marry in the Catholic Church, so I'm not entirely clear how that applies?

626 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:16am

re: #601 drcordell

Got a link to the transcripts?

[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

627 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:40:34am

re: #516 drcordell

Are you high? If the Democrats wanted to pass the bill already they would have. They have a supermajority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. They are TRYING TO SOLICIT INPUT and getting nothing but shit in return.

They are not trying to solicit input. They are trying to spread the blame and mitigate the loss of the Blue Dog votes. After the reaction Republicans got when they voted for the stimulus fiasco, most of them know better than to fall for that trick.

628 HippieforLife  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:02am

If the O were any kind of leader he would take the time to speak out and recognize the voice of the people for just what it is. He should not be adding to the drama by telling people to be quiet and go away.

Whether he likes it or not he is the President of the United States and therefor represents ALL the people of the USA.

Sarah Palin is now a private citizen. The O is not.

Yelling at people is never the answer even if the anger is understandable. These people just really want to be heard and are feeling more and more like no one is really listening.

I've seen the videos and the people look just like that people where I live. Old, young, white and black. Hardly "mobsters".

629 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:06am

re: #621 doubter4444

Liberals created what problem?
The problem of the racous Town Halls?
or or the mess in the Health Care sector?

the mess of the health care proposal...goes at the top of your list

630 MJ  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:06am

re: #576 turn

Is she arrogant?

She's very nice with a great sense of humor. Madison is a town where a lot of professors run around here thinking they are Plato's Philosopher-Kings...or should be. Ann is not among that group.

631 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:07am

re: #606 drcordell

Intersenting that you downdinged my post.

Do you deny that ALL of those things happened repeatedly?

632 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:10am

re: #593 iceweasel

The GOP could put forth the most cogent plan, but it will be defeated on party-line vote without the slightest bit of debate. Pelosi is sure to do so regardless of the merits of any GOP proposal. Why should she let the GOP steal the Democrat thunder on the issue?

It's all about the politics, and the Democrats have the numbers to ignore whatever the GOP does (or could conceivably steal any ideas that the GOP has and incorporate them into their own plan). Right now, the Blue Dogs might try that approach to water down the plan, but there's no sign that anyone in Congress has the foggiest idea of why an overhaul of the health care delivery system in this nation is even necessary.

Moreover, why can't the individual states provide the health care. If they're so interested in providing universal care, let them experiment. They have - and quickly found that things cost a whole lot more than they thought that cost controls quickly cut down on the number of enrollees and what kind of care could be obtained.

633 turn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:16am

re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I make no presumption of intentional malice under those driving Obamacare. I do make the logical assumption that incompetence and corruption, based on what other government programs have become, will mean it will be a failure of epic proportions.

Kragar I jumped in late on this thread and missed that until Dianna mentioned it. Went back upthread - ding

634 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:19am

re: #609 Cato the Elder

You mean like they have in the Catholic Church? What a horrible idea!

Those are the requirements of a religion--something that you choose.

635 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:27am

re: #622 MandyManners

It's the manner in which he used it. He called each of those Lizards a "fucking person".

So calling people f*cking *ssholes like you do is better Manners?

636 cronus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:32am

re: #616 Ben Hur

Dick Durban?

The Republican that called our soldiers Nazi camp guards, etc?

No, Durbin, the Senator from Illinois and Senate Majority Whip.

637 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:41:32am

re: #606 drcordell

Yes because we all know that the Congress can drive a legislative agenda without the White House on board.

Watch your lower back. You're about to snap it bending over to defend stupid statements.

638 JacksonTn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:42:41am

re: #605 Pianobuff

And of course this is just sheer speculation, but I'll go out on a limband suggest that of the disaffected Hillary supporters who held their nose and voted for Obama (a much larger number than the hardcore PUMAs who went the other), that this looks frighteningly familiar. Who knows if they are feeling remorse now.

The thing I'm still curious about is the real breakdown of attendees at the town halls. Some say it's all right-wing extremists, some say it's that plus cons and Rs, others say that there are also a meaningful number of moderate Democrats. I don't think anyone knows for sure the real split.

If there are an ample number of moderates (Rs + Ds), we may be witnessing a game of chicken, with the winner yet unknown.

Piano ... I am in the group who did not vote for Obama and RAN the other way ... I do not believe it is all right-wing at these townhalls ... I think that the majority (other than SEIU) are regular people who are expressing themselves ... I bet for some of them for the first time in a vocal way ... healthcare is something so personal that I guess this is what it took for some to wake up ... and I bet there are many many Obama voters who are wondering what they did ... especially many Hillary supporters who did decide to go along with the party line ... again ...

When I watch the scenes on television it takes me right back to the things that happened at the caucuses ... sad ... but hey it worked for SEIU and Obama then and it will work now ... confusion ... you will never know who is stirring the pot ... they are very very clever ...

639 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:42:52am

re: #608 buzzsawmonkey

a) The Democrats--from Obama on down--have not ceased reminding the Republicans that the Democrats won, and therefore need not pay any attention whatsoever to anything the Republicans say on this issue.

b) Sarah Palin, you may have noticed, is neither President nor in Congress, so what she "says" has no legislative leverage whatsoever.

c) "The system is totally fucked" is nice bar talk, but it does not identify any specific problem, let alone posit a solution to any problem. If that is the thinking of the Democrats--along with, "well, we're doing something even if we have no clue what that is, or what it will or won't fix," then I, and most other people, will stick with the devil we know, thank you.

What do you want, a dissertation on our disaster of a healthcare system? We have 50 million uninsured. Our infant mortality rates are currently WORSE THAN CUBA. Our healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP is highest in the world, yet our average citizen receives sub-par access to healthcare servicse. Insurance premiums are currently rising faster than wages roughly twofold. The cost of American corporations providing healthcare for their employees is beginning to become a serious competitive disadvantage for American companies trying to compete globally. Oh, and insurance companies currently only spend about 60% of premiums on actual healthcare. Medical bills are the cause of 2/3rds of the personal bankruptcies filed in America.

But yes, "the system is fucked" is totally bar talk, and we don't need to do anything to fix it. Lets just keep on going as if nothing is amiss! We don't need to do anything.

640 horse  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:42:52am

Glad to see Palin speak some common sense. I was negative about her earlier comment, though I did some digging into section 1236 of HR 3200 having to do with shared decision making, and found there may be cause for some concern. In particular this item;

The term `shared decision making' means a collaborative process between patient and clinician that engages the patient in decision making, provides patients with information about trade-offs among treatment options, and facilitates the incorporation of patient preferences and values into the medical plan.


It appears the patient preferences may be incorporated, but the final medical treatment plan is to be decided by others. That is where the comparative effectiveness aspects of government managed health care will only support the most cost effective treatment plan for the general public, which may not be what a specific patient needs.

The biggest negative impact will be felt by those with special needs, including seniors. It won't be a panel of death, but it will be a regulatory group deciding what treatments are covered and which aren't based on one-size-fits-all cost effectiveness. Those with unique conditions run the risk of not getting the specialized treatment they need. And in a single-payer system, there is no where else to turn.

641 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:43:04am
642 Digital Display  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:43:05am

I'm ready for our Town Hall meeting...Let's see..Nazi Sign: Check
Megaphone: Check Throat Spray :Check ( I can't scream endlessly without it) The memo from the left on how to protest: Check
I expect a very fruitful outcome with the Q&A on Healthcare.
Let the healing begin!

643 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:43:12am

re: #625 Dianna

But one does not have to marry in the Catholic Church, so I'm not entirely clear how that applies?

I'm just saying it wouldn't necessarily be such a horrid idea, not that I'm in favor of it.

644 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:43:14am

Frum has a very good article here on what Conservatives can and should support in the Health Care Reform arena:
[Link: www.newmajority.com...]

645 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:43:16am

re: #635 Cato the Elder

So calling people f*cking *ssholes like you do is better Manners?

But when she does it, it's cute.

646 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:43:30am

re: #606 drcordell

Yes because we all know that the Congress can drive a legislative agenda without the White House on board.

So, Obama was talking about shutting down talking from his own administration? You are trying to spin the obvious words of Obama, words that no one has mistaken for anything other than the plain simple facts of what he said. And you are digging deeper and deeper.

You started this conversation with me claiming the text was OLD, even though it was how can I even take anything you are saying about this with any authority?

647 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:43:39am

re: #637 haakondahl

Watch your lower back. You're about to snap it bending over to defend stupid statements.

I liked the 'solicit input' joke even better

648 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:43:51am

re: #547 MandyManners

It is not the role of the government to force us to think about advanced directives, living wills and the like. That's between an individual and her doctor and attorney.

When the people show a general desire for such a thing, it is reasonable for government to use its collective power to help enable access. We may disagree on that statement (or how much of desire is required or how much enabling should be offered).

This amendment (i believe it is an amendment to the bill) was proposed by a Republican. It is generally desired (from what I've read) on both sides of the aisle.

649 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:44:10am

re: #636 cronus

No, Durbin, the Senator from Illinois and Senate Majority Whip.

Democrat?

He can't be.

I mean, he called our troops Nazis, and now is against any dissent...

Makes no sense.

650 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:44:10am

re: #617 Thanos

It could happen -- the people who think they know what's best for you as individual even though they know nothing about you sit on both sides of the aisle in congress.

My cave looks more and more attractive.

651 turn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:44:28am

re: #630 MJ

She's very nice with a great sense of humor. Madison is a town where a lot of professors run around here thinking they are Plato's Philosopher-Kings...or should be. Ann is not among that group.

ok, thanks. I don't follow her much other than to follow a link from Glenn. Personally I never had the impression she was arrogant.

652 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:44:36am

re: #612 keithgabryelski "Some guy on twitter" is now representative of the right wing radical threat but video quoting the President of the United States isn't to be taken literally.

OK

653 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:00am

re: #637 haakondahl

Watch your lower back. You're about to snap it bending over to defend stupid statements.

LOL really. After a really boring weekend at work, this is a breath of fresh air.

654 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:10am

re: #642 HoosierHoops

I'm ready for our Town Hall meeting...Let's see..Nazi Sign: Check
Megaphone: Check Throat Spray :Check ( I can't scream endlessly without it) The memo from the left on how to protest: Check
I expect a very fruitful outcome with the Q&A on Healthcare.
Let the healing begin!


Hoops , you too?

655 midwestgak  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:28am

re: #642 HoosierHoops

I'm ready for our Town Hall meeting...Let's see..Nazi Sign: Check
Megaphone: Check Throat Spray :Check ( I can't scream endlessly without it) The memo from the left on how to protest: Check
I expect a very fruitful outcome with the Q&A on Healthcare.
Let the healing begin!

"Let this be the moment . . ."

656 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:41am

re: #639 drcordell

The Cuban health care system? You're going to claim that the Cuban health care system has a better mortality rate than here in the States? The infant mortality statistics are skewed in the US since we can have viable births far earlier than in other parts of the world, and sadly many of those who are prematurely birth can die - so they're counted as infant mortality.

Whereas, in Cuba, those infants that would have been born alive in the US wouldn't even have that chance in Cuba.

After all, in Cuba they're worried about a toilet paper shortage by the end of the year.

657 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:47am

re: #652 DaddyG

"Some guy on twitter" is now representative of the right wing radical threat but video quoting the President of the United States isn't to be taken literally.

OK

QUIT BEING LOGICAL AND FOLLOW TEH ROOLZ!

/

658 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:47am

Please don't feed the trolls. Thank you.

659 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:50am

re: #639 drcordell

How many of those alleged 50,000,000 are illegal aliens?

660 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #639 drcordell

What do you want, a dissertation on our disaster of a healthcare system? We have 50 million uninsured. Our infant mortality rates are currently WORSE THAN CUBA. Our healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP is highest in the world, yet our average citizen receives sub-par access to healthcare servicse. Insurance premiums are currently rising faster than wages roughly twofold. The cost of American corporations providing healthcare for their employees is beginning to become a serious competitive disadvantage for American companies trying to compete globally. Oh, and insurance companies currently only spend about 60% of premiums on actual healthcare. Medical bills are the cause of 2/3rds of the personal bankruptcies filed in America.

But yes, "the system is fucked" is totally bar talk, and we don't need to do anything to fix it. Lets just keep on going as if nothing is amiss! We don't need to do anything.

where does the proposal address tort reform and defensive medicine?

661 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #622 MandyManners

It's the manner in which he used it. He called each of those Lizards a "fucking person".

Upding coming right up.
Yes he did. He has no manners!
Intent is job one.

662 mjwsatx  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:55am

re: #584 drcordell

That's all well and good, but where are the counter-proposals? .

Here's one:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

663 doubter4444  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:45:56am

re: #542 Shiplord Kirel

There is an election next year. Rather than respond by trying to break down the doors and throw the front-loaders into the streets, the GOP can use this as ammunition in their campaigns:

(Play video) "How can the avowedly metrosexual Congressman claim to be for free speech and transparent government when he loaded his townhall meetings with union goons, ACORN communards, and mangy Obammunist hippies?"
(Or words to that effect)

I don't know how well that'll play to the reality based community out there.
I have not forgotten how the last administration packed it's meetings with liked minded to people to the point of only giving out tickets to party members in an area, and in some instances (till they were roundly jeered for it), making people sing loyalty oaths before entering, and where softball questions were almost laughable.
That seems as creepy or worse than what's going on now, isn't' it?

664 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:46:08am
665 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:46:18am

Partisan lib openly advocates censorship:

Free speech based on lies is not a constitutional guarantee

For over half a century, I've been a strong believer in, and an ardent practitioner of, first amendment protection of freedom of speech. Even when I don't like or agree with some of the speech.

But “freedom of speech” is not “freedom to lie,” not “freedom to distort” nor “freedom to deliberately frighten.” Thus, two items in the news these days make me boil right down to the soles of my feet!

The first is the “kill granny” crazies deliberately lying about end-of-life discussions with your doctor as the subject appears in one of the five health care overhaul bills being considered in the congress. The scurrilous, outright lies appearing on the Internet and shoveled along by right wing radio make a mockery of real free speech.

Hmmm, well, who decides what is a lie, a distortion, or a frightening claim? Actually, freedom of speech IS the freedom to do all of these things as they may be seen by someone, somewhere.
Under the standard the writer advocates, Noam Chomsky (and many, many other media authorities) would be jailed for their now discredited claims about US intentions in Afghanistan.

666 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:46:20am

re: #647 albusteve

I liked the 'solicit input' joke even better

Yea, solicit input, what, from the Blue Dogs who are screwing up all his plans.

Wait, that's it, he was trying to keep all the Blue Dogs in Congress from talking. That's the ticket.

667 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:47:00am

re: #639 drcordell

What do you want, a dissertation on our disaster of a healthcare system? We have 50 million uninsured. Our infant mortality rates are currently WORSE THAN CUBA. Our healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP is highest in the world, yet our average citizen receives sub-par access to healthcare servicse. Insurance premiums are currently rising faster than wages roughly twofold. The cost of American corporations providing healthcare for their employees is beginning to become a serious competitive disadvantage for American companies trying to compete globally. Oh, and insurance companies currently only spend about 60% of premiums on actual healthcare. Medical bills are the cause of 2/3rds of the personal bankruptcies filed in America.

But yes, "the system is fucked" is totally bar talk, and we don't need to do anything to fix it. Lets just keep on going as if nothing is amiss! We don't need to do anything.

So, it's either go along with a single-payer system or, do NOTHING?

668 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:47:06am

About the whole unclenched fist thing;

Mideast Peace Not in Foreseeable Future

Lieberman blamed the stalemate on what he called the Palestinian side's "uncompromising, extremist positions" concerning Jerusalem and Jewish settlements.

The foreign minister said Israeli policy must be based on reality and not illusions while maintaining a dialogue with Palestinians.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has vowed to liberate Palestinian land occupied by Israel and establish an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.

669 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:47:10am

re: #656 lawhawk

The Cuban health care system? You're going to claim that the Cuban health care system has a better mortality rate than here in the States? The infant mortality statistics are skewed in the US since we can have viable births far earlier than in other parts of the world, and sadly many of those who are prematurely birth can die - so they're counted as infant mortality.

Whereas, in Cuba, those infants that would have been born alive in the US wouldn't even have that chance in Cuba.

After all, in Cuba they're worried about a toilet paper shortage by the end of the year.

This statement was even better:

"yet our average citizen receives sub-par access to healthcare servicse"

I'm holding my breath waiting for THAT cite.

/not

670 Digital Display  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:47:19am

re: #654 opnion

Hoops , you too?


LOL
did I forget the '/' tag.. my bad. :)

671 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:47:23am

re: #639 drcordell

re: #659 MandyManners

How many of those alleged 50,000,000 are illegal aliens?

When did it hit 50 million?

THE biggest number I've seen/ heard from the dems/libs/progressives was low 40 millions

frakkin inflation!

672 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:47:44am

re: #639 drcordell

What do you want, a dissertation on our disaster of a healthcare system? We have 50 million uninsured. Our infant mortality rates are currently WORSE THAN CUBA. Our healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP is highest in the world, yet our average citizen receives sub-par access to healthcare servicse. Insurance premiums are currently rising faster than wages roughly twofold. The cost of American corporations providing healthcare for their employees is beginning to become a serious competitive disadvantage for American companies trying to compete globally. Oh, and insurance companies currently only spend about 60% of premiums on actual healthcare. Medical bills are the cause of 2/3rds of the personal bankruptcies filed in America.

But yes, "the system is fucked" is totally bar talk, and we don't need to do anything to fix it. Lets just keep on going as if nothing is amiss! We don't need to do anything.

The party line is 48 million. Where did you find 2 million more uninsured?

673 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:47:55am

re: #658 Ward Cleaver

Please don't feed the trolls. Thank you.

Can we tree the folds?

Free the rolls?

What exactly are our positive options?

/

674 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:48:04am

re: #659 MandyManners

How many of those alleged 50,000,000 are illegal aliens?

or have incomes above 50k?

675 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:48:06am

re: #605 Pianobuff


The thing I'm still curious about is the real breakdown of attendees at the town halls. Some say it's all right-wing extremists, some say it's that plus cons and Rs, others say that there are also a meaningful number of moderate Democrats. I don't think anyone knows for sure the real split.

If there are an ample number of moderates (Rs + Ds), we may be witnessing a game of chicken, with the winner yet unknown.

My wife, a lifelong Democrat (but a PUMA) and in many ways an unrepentant liberal, is pretty disgusted with this 0bamacare abomination, and I could see her show up at townhalls if we were still in C[r]ook County. The fact that she and I actually have experience with socialized (and hybrid) healthcare systems may be a factor --- we know just what s**t sandwich 0bama and his posse are trying to foist on the American people.

676 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:48:07am

re: #648 keithgabryelski

When the people show a general desire for such a thing, it is reasonable for government to use its collective power to help enable access. We may disagree on that statement (or how much of desire is required or how much enabling should be offered).

This amendment (i believe it is an amendment to the bill) was proposed by a Republican. It is generally desired (from what I've read) on both sides of the aisle.

The people have shown this desire? There is a poll out there saying that?

677 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:48:11am
678 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:48:18am

re: #662 mjwsatx

Here's one:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Be prepared for a lecture on how this isn't a "serious" proposal.

679 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:48:22am

re: #672 Walter L. Newton

The party line is 48 million. Where did you find 2 million more uninsured?

There was apparently a late shipment in from Central America last night.

/

680 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:48:52am

re: #639 drcordell

But yes, "the system is fucked" is totally bar talk, and we don't need to do anything to fix it. Lets just keep on going as if nothing is amiss! We don't need to do anything.

Sure, something needs to be done, I'm sure we all have horror stories when it comes to this nation's healthcare. The problem is that the proposed government solution is an albatross around the country's neck, and will, in my opinion (and I believe in many other people's opinion), be significantly worse than what we're dealing with right now.

What's the solution? I don't know, but this government plan? A disaster waiting to happen, from my perspective.

681 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:48:54am

dr cordell:

With links, please provide answers to the following:
How many of this widely touted 50 million uninsured have no access to health care in the US?
How many of this widely touted 50 million are eligible for existing health care plans but have either chosen not to take advantage, or refuse to pay for the insurance and are in good health?
How many are illegal aliens?

Seems that you're pretty good in mentioning talking points on your own, but ignore that the massive overhaul of health care by this Administration in a rush job - and there's no other way to describe it - is startling in its absolute disdain for the intelligence of the American people.

682 Rexatosis  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:49:03am

with regard to the end of life counseling:

What is the "end of life" ?

Ans. "Death"

So we can say "end of life" = "Death"

Therefore "end of life counseling" = "Death counseling"

683 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:49:04am

re: #658 Ward Cleaver

Please don't feed the trolls. Thank you.


What am I supposed to do with all this snark I have laying around? /

684 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:49:11am
685 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:49:21am

re: #632 lawhawk

The GOP could put forth the most cogent plan, but it will be defeated on party-line vote without the slightest bit of debate. Pelosi is sure to do so regardless of the merits of any GOP proposal. Why should she let the GOP steal the Democrat thunder on the issue?

It's all about the politics, and the Democrats have the numbers to ignore whatever the GOP does (or could conceivably steal any ideas that the GOP has and incorporate them into their own plan). Right now, the Blue Dogs might try that approach to water down the plan, but there's no sign that anyone in Congress has the foggiest idea of why an overhaul of the health care delivery system in this nation is even necessary.

Moreover, why can't the individual states provide the health care. If they're so interested in providing universal care, let them experiment. They have - and quickly found that things cost a whole lot more than they thought that cost controls quickly cut down on the number of enrollees and what kind of care could be obtained.

So, your excuse for the GOP not offering any constructive plan whatsoever is simply "well the Democrat's hypothetically wouldn't listen to it?" That is completely ridiculous. Where was the competing GOP healthcare plan in 1996 when they dismantled Clinton's attempts at health care reform?

686 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:49:27am
687 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:49:30am

re: #652 DaddyG

"Some guy on twitter" is now representative of the right wing radical threat but video quoting the President of the United States isn't to be taken literally.

OK

THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.

Geeze, that was in direct response to reine.de.tout's message. Read the context. I didn't even suggest he was representative of ANYTHING.

re: video

We obviously read that video differently. If you see POTUS as attacking citizens instead of lawmakers I can only suggest you look at the video again, but we are at a standstill after that.

688 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:49:42am
689 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:49:54am

re: #670 HoosierHoops

LOL
did I forget the '/' tag.. my bad. :)

Thank you, I feel better.

690 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:50:05am

re: #659 MandyManners

How many of those alleged 50,000,000 are illegal aliens repressed migrant workers, who do jobs that fat, lazy, insipid Americans won't do and contribute so much to our economy and society in spite of its ills and injustices?

FTFY. Needed some punching up.

/

691 Buck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:50:08am

re: #2 cronus

No need to invoke "death panels" or any other alarmist strawmen. CBO says that key components of current reform proposals don't cut costs.

As there is no final bill to read, this is a constantly changing target. However no one knows what would happen if there was no criticism until there is a final version.

In the meanwhile there is going to be a lot of this sort of wild speculation.

692 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:50:20am

re: #683 DaddyG

What am I supposed to do with all this snark I have laying around? /

Donate it to charity?

693 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:50:31am

re: #639 drcordell

Hey Doc. Does every country count infant mortality the same way?

694 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:50:48am

re: #688 buzzsawmonkey

He works as a coyote on the side.

ky-YOH-tay!

695 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:50:56am

re: #666 Walter L. Newton

Yea, solicit input, what, from the Blue Dogs who are screwing up all his plans.

Wait, that's it, he was trying to keep all the Blue Dogs in Congress from talking. That's the ticket.

great entertainment here...
and thanks for carrying the ball for me Walter...
I can just sit a watch while you get slapped around...
gotta watch my mouth these days

696 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:51:05am

re: #694 Ward Cleaver

ky-YOH-tay!

Wolverine!

697 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:51:13am

re: #683 DaddyG

What am I supposed to do with all this snark I have laying around? /

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a snark.

Something like that.

698 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:51:15am

re: #639 drcordell

1) We have 50 million uninsured.
2) Our infant mortality rates are currently WORSE THAN CUBA.
3) Our healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP is highest in the world, yet our average citizen receives sub-par access to healthcare servicse.
4) Insurance premiums are currently rising faster than wages roughly twofold.
5) The cost of American corporations providing healthcare for their employees is beginning to become a serious competitive disadvantage for American companies trying to compete globally.
6) Oh, and insurance companies currently only spend about 60% of premiums on actual healthcare.
7) Medical bills are the cause of 2/3rds of the personal bankruptcies filed in America.

But yes, "the system is fucked" is totally bar talk, and we don't need to do anything to fix it. Lets just keep on going as if nothing is amiss! We don't need to do anything.

1) Show me a legal working American who cannot get a tooth fixed or a bone set.
2) Bullshit. Michael Moore much?
3) First, our healthcare spending encompasses much of the world. What we develop at great expense is often provided free of charge to millions across the world. Second, "sub-par" meaning below the worldwide average quality of care? Bullshit.
4) The market will tell.
5) I take it then that you support unencumbering businesses in order to make them more competitive?
6) 60% is not bad at all for an industry which is saddled with such a staggering amount of regulatory compliance issues. Caution: there will be profits made in a capitalist system.
7) If the government takes this over, taxes will become the leading cause.

699 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:51:29am

re: #684 buzzsawmonkey

I think he's saying it's better to do something stupid, wrong, and expensive, as long as it's done quickly, than do nothing or hold out for getting it right.

There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over.

/one of Murphy's Laws

700 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:51:33am

re: #665 Shiplord Kirel

Partisan lib openly advocates censorship:

Free speech based on lies is not a constitutional guarantee


Hmmm, well, who decides what is a lie, a distortion, or a frightening claim? Actually, freedom of speech IS the freedom to do all of these things as they may be seen by someone, somewhere.
Under the standard the writer advocates, Noam Chomsky (and many, many other media authorities) would be jailed for their now discredited claims about US intentions in Afghanistan.

Remember the Truth Squads in Missouri during the campaign? D.A.'s and sheriff's going after those who "lied" about FCBBHO?


[Link: campaignspot.nationalreview.com...]

701 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:51:42am

re: #630 MJ

She's very nice with a great sense of humor. Madison is a town where a lot of professors run around here thinking they are Plato's Philosopher-Kings...or should be. Ann is not among that group.

Madison is truly a world unto itself - for good and bad.

702 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:51:49am

re: #656 lawhawk

The Cuban health care system? You're going to claim that the Cuban health care system has a better mortality rate than here in the States? The infant mortality statistics are skewed in the US since we can have viable births far earlier than in other parts of the world, and sadly many of those who are prematurely birth can die - so they're counted as infant mortality.

Whereas, in Cuba, those infants that would have been born alive in the US wouldn't even have that chance in Cuba.

After all, in Cuba they're worried about a toilet paper shortage by the end of the year.



Cuban Health Care...

***nausea alert***

703 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:51:58am

re: #650 MandyManners

My cave looks more and more attractive.

(!)

704 Czarny_Smok  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:11am

Sorry if this has been posted before:

If you want a glimpse into how ObamaCare will work (despite all the denials) take a look at Rahm Emanuel’s brother's thinking at “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” by Govind Persad BS , Alan Wertheimer PhD , Ezekiel J Emanuel MD at The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009. The Good Dr. Emanuel is a healthcare advisor for The Bama.

"Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles."
And . . .

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

One might note some comparison to an early allocation program - - Aktion T4 - - very popular in Germany around 1939-1941

705 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:14am

re: #682 Rexatosis

with regard to the end of life counseling:

What is the "end of life" ?

Ans. "Death"

So we can say "end of life" = "Death"

Therefore "end of life counseling" = "Death counseling"


Dude. Get with the times. It's "pro-choice counseling".

706 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:25am

re: #700 MandyManners

Remember the Truth Squads in Missouri during the campaign? D.A.'s and sheriff's going after those who "lied" about FCBBHO?


[Link: campaignspot.nationalreview.com...]

[Link: www.kmov.com...]

707 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:27am

re: #684 buzzsawmonkey

I think he's saying it's better to do something stupid, wrong, and expensive, as long as it's done quickly, than do nothing or hold out for getting it right.

That is the Obama strategy, 'This is a crisis. There is no time to read anything, just vote."

708 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:32am

re: #676 MandyManners

The people have shown this desire? There is a poll out there saying that?

From my understanding, healthcare reform still has a more than a majority approval rating.

709 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:32am

re: #682 Rexatosis

with regard to the end of life counseling:

What is the "end of life" ?

Ans. "Death"

So we can say "end of life" = "Death"

Therefore "end of life counseling" = "Death counseling"

Hmm. Well, you have a point.

710 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:41am

re: #685 drcordell

You clearly haven't paid attention. The GOP has a plan - several in fact - but they will get limited debate and have absolutely no chance of passage because the Democrats control both chambers of Congress and the White House.

They could put together your dream health care bill, and it still would have no chance of passage.

711 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:48am

re: #695 albusteve

great entertainment here...
and thanks for carrying the ball for me Walter...
I can just sit a watch while you get slapped around...
gotta watch my mouth these days

I know, and with my comment at the top of this thread, and the slew of positive up dings, I'm a prime target for the progressives entering this thread.

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

712 tedzilla99  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:51am

Kenneth Gladney got roughed up by SEIU thugs after PBO called on them to fight back. That's indisputable. The worst thing that happened before that was some shouting at meetings when constituents get ignored or talked over. That's also indisputable. The fact is, congress tried to ram this through without reading or disclosing the details, and we the people caught them. And they cannot handle the criticism and are overstating the opposition, and cancelling events due to "security concerns" and other lies. In 2002, it was patriotic to dissent - now it's mob mentality and intimidation. Bullshit. And, I was very disappointed to not have any blog posts here about the union and ACORN intimidation at events last week, preferring to put the blame on the people who come to these meetings to have their voices heard.

I remember when conservative speakers were drowned out and had objects thrown at them and were physically mobbed until they cancelled and left. Nothing similar has happened during these townhalls, yet the dissenters are the problem. Shameful.

713 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:52:54am

Uh... my 705 should be sarc tag implied.

714 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:53:08am

re: #656 lawhawk

The Cuban health care system? You're going to claim that the Cuban health care system has a better mortality rate than here in the States? The infant mortality statistics are skewed in the US since we can have viable births far earlier than in other parts of the world, and sadly many of those who are prematurely birth can die - so they're counted as infant mortality.

Whereas, in Cuba, those infants that would have been born alive in the US wouldn't even have that chance in Cuba.


Kudos for that example of how a half-truth (or statistics out of context) can be more pernicious than outright lies. Communists have always been past masters at this technique.

715 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:53:13am

re: #696 Walter L. Newton

Wolverine!

Red Dawn, a guilty pleasure of a movie...

...unles you're speaking of the X-Men movie, which I haven't seen yet.

716 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:53:33am

re: #707 opnion

That is the Obama strategy, 'This is a crisis. There is no time to read anything, just vote."

You're really going to wish you had bought the undercoating, believe me.

717 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:53:53am

re: #686 taxfreekiller

20 to 25 million illegals is a better guess

and growing

Yes, they're in that 47, or 48, or whatever million they want to count, along with people who are between jobs, and young people who just don't want to buy insurance. Set up a program that addresses those without insurance (not including illegal aliens), but don't destroy everyone else's in the process.

718 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:53:56am

I have received sub-par access to my free unicorn.

719 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:00am

DENVER -- Sen. Barack Obama's campaign organized its supporters Wednesday night to confront Tribune-owned WGN-AM in Chicago for having a critic of the Illinois Democrat on its air. (Listen to the interview.)

"WGN radio is giving right-wing hatchet man Stanley Kurtz a forum to air his baseless, fear-mongering terrorist smears," Obama's campaign wrote in an e-mail to supporters. "He's currently scheduled to spend a solid two-hour block from 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. pushing lies, distortions, and manipulations about Barack and University of Illinois professor William Ayers."

Kurtz, a conservative writer, recently wrote an article for the National Review that looked at Obama's ties to Ayers, a former 1960s radical who later emerged as a school reform advocate in Chicago.

[Link: www.swamppolitics.com...]

720 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:02am

re: #696 Walter L. Newton

Wolverine!

snikty-snikty-snarl!

See, what he's doing is imitating Wolverine's berserker attack with his adamantium claws.

/random Mallrats quote

721 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:07am

re: #681 lawhawk

dr cordell:

With links, please provide answers to the following:
How many of this widely touted 50 million uninsured have no access to health care in the US?
How many of this widely touted 50 million are eligible for existing health care plans but have either chosen not to take advantage, or refuse to pay for the insurance and are in good health?
How many are illegal aliens?

Seems that you're pretty good in mentioning talking points on your own, but ignore that the massive overhaul of health care by this Administration in a rush job - and there's no other way to describe it - is startling in its absolute disdain for the intelligence of the American people.

Even if the 50 million figure is complete bullshit (which it isn't), do you not dispute any of the other facts? The fact that we spend the highest percentage of GDP on healthcare in the entire world? The fact that our infant mortality rate is worse than Cuba's? The fact that 2/3rds of all personal bankruptcies are caused by medical bills? The fact that insurance premiums are currently rising twice as fast as wages? The fact that paying for healthcare is crippling american businesses?

You're dancing around trying to make me prove that healthcare is totally fucked in this country. Anyone who is honest with themselves knows it is completely fucked in this country. The question is, what are we going to do to try and fix it. I dont necessarily think that more government involvement is the answer. But right now the GOP isn't proposing jack shit. They are just trying to kill Obama's plan, and do nothing. I don't think we can afford to do that. If the GOP put forth a sensible plan to reform the insurance industry, streamline regulation across state lines, prevent policies from being cancelled after expensive claims are made etc... I think it could really gain traction. But they aren't. They are just saying NO.

722 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:12am

re: #711 Walter L. Newton

I know, and with my comment at the top of this thread, and the slew of positive up dings, I'm a prime target for the progressives entering this thread.

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

I've been following

723 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:26am

A relative of my who works in a clinic in another state stated that the law in his state is that if a person walks into their clinic, and says "I need health care and I aint' go nooo money, honey," they still must treat them.

You can get health care in this country, you might just have trouble paying for it.

724 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:28am

Funny how the tunes have changed since Bush floated saving Social Security.

725 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:32am

"1) We have 50 million uninsured."

Do I hear 52 million? Going once...

726 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:39am

re: #685 drcordell

So, your excuse for the GOP not offering any constructive plan whatsoever is simply "well the Democrat's hypothetically wouldn't listen to it?" That is completely ridiculous. Where was the competing GOP healthcare plan in 1996 when they dismantled Clinton's attempts at health care reform?

I gave you but two (of several) in 620

Ignore them?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

727 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:54:44am

re: #702 jcm

The real Cuban health care system (and you're right - nausea at the horrific conditions is a symptom of viewing some of those images).

728 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:55:09am

re: #718 OldLineTexan

I have received sub-par access to my free unicorn.

Never back into a unicorn...

729 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:55:22am

re: #718 OldLineTexan

I have received sub-par access to my free unicorn.

it's shared...surprise!

730 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:55:30am

re: #702 jcm


Cuban Health Care...

***nausea alert***

Also see this, at therealcuba.com.

731 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:55:33am

re: #688 buzzsawmonkey

He works as a coyote on the side.

Yes, keep attacking the statistics and nit-picking at the numbers. The point is, there are a shit-ton of Americans that don't have access to affordable healthcare. Premiums are skyrocketing, costs are going through the roof, businesses are being crippled paying for benefits. But all you want to do is nitpick over how many million Americans are uninsured.

732 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:55:36am

re: #725 Shiplord Kirel

"1) We have 50 million uninsured."

Do I hear 52 million? Going once...

Ask San Fran Nan and we can get it up to 250 million a week.

733 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:55:39am

re: #722 albusteve

I've been following

Keep my back.

734 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:55:59am

re: #728 MrSilverDragon

Never back into a unicorn...

nor front into one!

735 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:56:02am

re: #675 Former Belgian

My wife, a lifelong Democrat (but a PUMA) and in many ways an unrepentant liberal, is pretty disgusted with this 0bamacare abomination, and I could see her show up at townhalls if we were still in C[r]ook County. The fact that she and I actually have experience with socialized (and hybrid) healthcare systems may be a factor --- we know just what s**t sandwich 0bama and his posse are trying to foist on the American people.

Interesting. I do get the sense that many of the attendees at these town halls have never been involved in any kind of activism in their life. The fact that they have finally decided to get involved I'll interpret as a sign of their anger. I'll also interpret their anger is very high (and not manufactured) for them to dive into the pool. Their anger leaves them pre-disposed to want to yell and scream. I think that's part of what's driving some of the behavior at the townhalls. Not excusing it necessarily, just explaining it.

I've seen footage of 4 or 5 "overly"-rowdy townhalls. Does anybody know a total number that have gone off smoothly. IOW, are we looking at an exception or a rule?

736 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:56:05am

re: #725 Shiplord Kirel

"1) We have 50 million uninsured."

Do I hear 52 million? Going once...

54!

737 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:56:19am

GAZE.

738 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:56:35am

re: #731 drcordell

The costs don't go away just because they go public.

739 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:56:38am
740 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:56:40am

re: #687 keithgabryelski I see POTUS attacking those that diagree with him and asking them to shut up. One of those congresspersons who disagree with him is my representative who is representing my views. Should I let that go since it wasn't "aimed at citizens"?

741 Buck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:57:00am

re: #639 drcordell

...Our infant mortality rates are currently WORSE THAN CUBA. ...

I wonder if is possible to find out the truth of that statement without having to depend on CUBA to provide the figures? I mean they lie about crime rates, and so many other stats, why would I believe this?

742 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:57:19am

re: #737 Ward Cleaver

GAZE.

I agree. That one's become a troll who will not listen to reason nor facts. He's merely worth dinging and that's about it.

743 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:57:22am

re: #716 jaunte

You're really going to wish you had bought the undercoating, believe me.

"Let me tell you something my friend, if you walk out now you'll be sorry.
You'll come back tomorrow & want this car & it will be gone."
I had a car dealer say that to me, seriously. Now we have that guy in the White House.

744 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:57:23am

There is a category in Catholic theology known as invincible ignorance.

Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory.

We are seeing a great deal of it in the health care debate.

Yet I suspect a great deal more is of the vincible sort. Palin, for example, knows she is lying and continues to lie anyway, though part of her may be convinced that she's doing it for a good cause. To use Trig to frighten people into believing in euthanasia brigades is nothing short of a mortal sin.

745 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:57:31am

re: #726 sattv4u2

I gave you but two (of several) in 620

Ignore them?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Newt Gingrich isn't an elected official. Putting out a powerpoint presentation is a little bit different than actually putting together a bill and sending it through the legislature in an attempt to make a law. If Newt gave a shit about reforming healthcare he would have put forth a real law back when he had control of both houses of congress. Except he didn't. He just killed Clinton's plan and did nothing further. That is what will happen again if the GOP has its way.

746 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:57:50am

re: #719 MandyManners

DENVER -- Sen. Barack Obama's campaign organized its supporters Wednesday night to confront Tribune-owned WGN-AM in Chicago for having a critic of the Illinois Democrat on its air. (Listen to the interview.)

"WGN radio is giving right-wing hatchet man Stanley Kurtz a forum to air his baseless, fear-mongering terrorist smears," Obama's campaign wrote in an e-mail to supporters. "He's currently scheduled to spend a solid two-hour block from 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. pushing lies, distortions, and manipulations about Barack and University of Illinois professor William Ayers."

Kurtz, a conservative writer, recently wrote an article for the National Review that looked at Obama's ties to Ayers, a former 1960s radical who later emerged as a school reform advocate in Chicago.

[Link: www.swamppolitics.com...]

747 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:57:54am

If the public option is so byooo-tiful, why the writers of the bill delibarately exempting their supporters (union members)?

748 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:58:12am

re: #721 drcordell

You're dancing around trying to make me prove that healthcare is totally fucked in this country. Anyone who is honest with themselves knows it is completely fucked in this country

All True Scotsmen agree that healthcare is completely fucked in this country. Although there is a valid counterpoint, which is that healthcare is not completely fucked, but totally fucked in this country.

Scholarship like yours is difficult to argue with.

749 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:58:13am

re: #526 doubter4444


I went to a community meeting on schools in my city, and four hundred people showed up, the city meeting room held 250 max.
The meeting was postponed to find a bigger venue.

When 500 people show up to a venue that holds 150, what the hell is supposed to happen?

You just answered your own question.

750 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:58:22am

"Health insurance" and "access to health care" are not one and the same things.
The State of Texas, for example, is demonized for not providing health insurance to "the poor," since this is the usual practice in lib states like Massachusetts. It is seldom mentioned that Texas does not pay for insurance because it provides health care directly to the indigent through a state wide single-payer and public health system.

751 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:58:30am

re: #725 Shiplord Kirel

"1) We have 50 million uninsured."

Do I hear 52 million? Going once...

52 Million!

752 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:58:33am

re: #700 MandyManners

Remember the Truth Squads in Missouri during the campaign? D.A.'s and sheriff's going after those who "lied" about FCBBHO?

[Link: campaignspot.nationalreview.com...]

There's another presidential acronym I've seen floating around some other sites lately.

IMPOTUS (as in "I am the POTUS")

753 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:58:45am

re: #744 Cato the Elder

There is a category in Catholic theology known as invincible ignorance.

We are seeing a great deal of it in the health care debate.

Yet I suspect a great deal more is of the vincible sort. Palin, for example, knows she is lying and continues to lie anyway, though part of her may be convinced that she's doing it for a good cause. To use Trig to frighten people into believing in euthanasia brigades is nothing short of a mortal sin.

Over the top.

754 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:58:46am

re: #743 opnion

"What will it take to get you into a health care plan today?"

755 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:59:02am
756 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:59:03am

re: #643 Cato the Elder

I'm just saying it wouldn't necessarily be such a horrid idea, not that I'm in favor of it.

I don't want "mandatory counseling" on anything. You have no idea how sinister that feels to me.

757 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:59:17am

re: #731 drcordell

Yes, keep attacking the statistics and nit-picking at the numbers. The point is, there are a shit-ton of Americans that don't have access to affordable healthcare. Premiums are skyrocketing, costs are going through the roof, businesses are being crippled paying for benefits. But all you want to do is nitpick over how many million Americans are uninsured.

No, you keep misquoting the statistics and the numbers which leads to the incredibility of any of your statements. Such as telling us that Obama's statement about keeping people from talking was OLD, or stating 50 million lacking insurance when even the administration just last week used the figure 48 million (and has been for a few years).

So, the point is, you jump in here, drop all sort of statistics, when anyone doesn't agree with you 100 percent, you start using obscene language and then drop back and complain that everyone is nick-picking.

Lame.

758 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:59:34am

re: #734 sattv4u2

nor front into one!

Well, yes... that wouldn't be wise either... but well, you know!

759 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:59:37am

re: #753 Silvergirl

Over the top.

You betcha.

760 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:59:49am

re: #725 Shiplord Kirel

"1) We have 50 million uninsured."

Do I hear 52 million? Going once...

58!

761 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:59:53am

re: #704 Czarny_Smok

Sorry if this has been posted before:

If you want a glimpse into how ObamaCare will work (despite all the denials) take a look at Rahm Emanuel’s brother's thinking at “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” by Govind Persad BS , Alan Wertheimer PhD , Ezekiel J Emanuel MD at The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009. The Good Dr. Emanuel is a healthcare advisor for The Bama.

"Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles."
And . . .

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.
One might note some comparison to an early allocation program - - Aktion T4 - - very popular in Germany around 1939-1941

ATTENUATED? Wow.

So, if you're under 15 or over 40, your chances to get a donated organ will be slim BY LAW?

Great catch. I've not had time to Google Dr. Emmanuel.

762 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:12pm

re: #731 drcordell

businesses are being crippled paying for benefits.


And they won't be crippled with an enforced mandate from the government?

763 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:19pm

re: #744 Cato the Elder

Where is that silent retreat when you need it?

You knew you opened yourself up by sharing that with us. :-)

764 96RoadKing  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:27pm

re: #698 haakondahl

with regards to the contention that:
1) We have 50 million uninsured: statistical red herring. 50 million may be uninsured at any point in the year (may only be one day, there is a large proportion that self insure, etc).
2) Our infant mortality rates are worse than Cuba: please provide data. Are you talking total numbers (US population exponentially larger than Cuba) or percentage of premy births (US has a much better record at actually attempting to provide care to premature babies)...?
3) Our percentage of healthcare...oh, screw it. The number of red herrings to be addressed would take too much time to address!

765 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:30pm

Plenty of people have experience in dealing with government agencies, and the experience is most frequently summarized as "Take it or leave it. Next."
Why is this considered an attractive prospect?

766 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:36pm

re: #721 drcordell

Hey Doc? This is from Wikipedia. Please stop slamming the United States Infant Mortality Rates... Thanks...

"While the United States reports every case of infant mortality, it has been suggested that some other developed countries do not. A 2006 article in U.S. News & World Report claims that "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless.[5] And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country." However, all of the countries named adopted the WHO definition in the late 1980s or early 1990s."

767 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:37pm

re: #747 EmmmieG

If the public option is so byooo-tiful, why the writers of the bill delibarately exempting their supporters (union members)?

Why are they exempting government workers, included themselves?

768 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:41pm

re: #751 haakondahl

52 Million!

Let's make it 63 million. Statistics and numbers don't matter, it's nit-picking.

769 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:48pm

re: #731 drcordell

Yes, keep attacking the statistics and nit-picking at the numbers. The point is, there are a shit-ton of Americans that don't have access to affordable healthcare. Premiums are skyrocketing, costs are going through the roof, businesses are being crippled paying for benefits. But all you want to do is nitpick over how many million Americans are uninsured.

that's just flat out wrong...hyperbole

770 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:53pm

re: #726 sattv4u2

I gave you but two (of several) in 620

Ignore them?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

If you get a response, it will be to chastise the plans as not being "serious". That is, of course, if you get a response.

771 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:00:56pm

re: #721 drcordell

Even if the 50 million figure is complete bullshit (which it isn't), do you not dispute any of the other facts? The fact that we spend the highest percentage of GDP on healthcare in the entire world? The fact that our infant mortality rate is worse than Cuba's? The fact that 2/3rds of all personal bankruptcies are caused by medical bills? The fact that insurance premiums are currently rising twice as fast as wages? The fact that paying for healthcare is crippling american businesses?

You're dancing around trying to make me prove that healthcare is totally fucked in this country. Anyone who is honest with themselves knows it is completely fucked in this country. The question is, what are we going to do to try and fix it. I dont necessarily think that more government involvement is the answer. But right now the GOP isn't proposing jack shit. They are just trying to kill Obama's plan, and do nothing. I don't think we can afford to do that. If the GOP put forth a sensible plan to reform the insurance industry, streamline regulation across state lines, prevent policies from being cancelled after expensive claims are made etc... I think it could really gain traction. But they aren't. They are just saying NO.

I already refuted your Cuban nonsense above. As for the rest, others have addressed the nonsense about who controls Congress and how the votes will carry. The GOP has several health care proposals, but they wont see the light of day because they can't even carry out of Committee (where GOPers are outnumbered by Democrats, and Democrats are chairmen). There's no reason for the GOP to say anything other than NO in that environment.

The onus is on Democrats to proffer support for their plan, and they're engaging in an EPIC FAIL, because they've lied and distorted the necessity to do this RIGHT NOW (before recess) or else the sky falls (chicken little syndrome, courtesy of Obama himself). Their numbers don't work out - according to the OMB and anyone who pays attention to the ballooning deficits.

And yet you think this is about the GOP?

I do want you to prove that health care is so screwed up in this country that we have to go to a full-tilt revision that is done in such a half-assed manner that it will make cash for clunkers look good in comparison. I want the Democrats to show how their plan will allow everyone to maintain their level of coverage and quality of care, while providing coverage to everyone - without raising taxes, which has been one of their core claims all along.

You can't - and they can't, which is where the weasel words come in from Obama and his Administration.

772 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:01pm

re: #721 drcordell

Right now, doing nothing is far better than hurrying up and doing "whatever". The world's foremost deliberative body has no business hurrying through the largest reform of the largest sector of the largest economy in the world.

This is madness, and very few responses to it are out of line.

773 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:06pm

re: #725 Shiplord Kirel

"1) We have 50 million uninsured."

Do I hear 52 million? Going once...

BTW:

Go, Shiplord!

774 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:07pm

re: #474 avanti

I applaud the founders for allowing all speech, but I'm not particularly fond of the speech the sign holders are expressing, so no, I don't applaud them.
Just as you might applaud my freedom to call you a Nazi without reason, you might well put my butt on the ground for saying it.

Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. Free speech and battery are two different things.

775 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:22pm

re: #745 drcordell

Newt Gingrich isn't an elected official. Putting out a powerpoint presentation is a little bit different than actually putting together a bill and sending it through the legislature in an attempt to make a law. If Newt gave a shit about reforming healthcare he would have put forth a real law back when he had control of both houses of congress. Except he didn't. He just killed Clinton's plan and did nothing further. That is what will happen again if the GOP has its way.

I see, So dismiss Newt, fine.

Now , what about Rep Ryans plan and your statement that the Repubs have offered NOTHING

Care to retarct that?

776 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:27pm

re: #739 buzzsawmonkey

Now the truth comes out. Obamacare is for the purpose of removing the crippling health care expense from American business, so that the crippling burdens of energy scarcity and higher energy prices, higher business taxes, and higher minimum wages, can be substituted in its stead.

Did I say anywhere that I am completely in support of Obama's plan? No. I think it could be a lot better if there was a meaningful opposition that actually cared to legislate instead of fearmonger.

But nobody seems to be interested in doing that. There is no counter-proposal, no suggestions. Nothing but nit-picking every statistic that shows how broken our healthcare system is, and shouts of "death panel" when a good-faith effort is made to help fix the system.

777 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:42pm

re: #755 buzzsawmonkey

And here I was thinking that Cuba's crime rate decreased because there was nothing left to steal...

778 redstateredneck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:42pm

re: #761 MandyManners

ATTENUATED? Wow.

So, if you're under 15 or over 40, your chances to get a donated organ will be slim BY LAW?

Great catch. I've not had time to Google Dr. Emmanuel.

Another link to info on Zeke that I posted upthread.

779 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:43pm
The fact that we spend the highest percentage of GDP on healthcare in the entire world? The fact that our infant mortality rate is worse than Cuba's? The fact that 2/3rds of all personal bankruptcies are caused by medical bills? The fact that insurance premiums are currently rising twice as fast as wages? The fact that paying for healthcare is crippling american businesses?

The FACT that all these FACTS are caused by the FACT that doctors have to cover their asses from the FACT of predetory malpractice lawsuits that, as a matter of FACT cause an insane increase to health COSTS (Not ACCESS) that get passed on to the patients from the doctors?

780 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:46pm

re: #708 keithgabryelski

From my understanding, healthcare reform still has a more than a majority approval rating.

I was speaking specifically of advanced directives and living wills.

781 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:01:56pm

re: #704 Czarny_Smok

Linking Obamacare to 1930's Germany instantly turns many people off to anything intelligent you may have said.

782 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:08pm

re: #763 Silvergirl

Where is that silent retreat when you need it?

You knew you opened yourself up by sharing that with us. :-)

How is what Palin said not using Trig for demagogic purposes? She knows it's a damned lie. She should be deeply, deeply ashamed of herself.

And my retreat has been postponed until Labor Day. Thanks for asking. ;^)

783 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:12pm

Oh, good grief. UNCLE.

784 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:30pm

re: #745 drcordell

Newt Gingrich isn't an elected official. Putting out a powerpoint presentation is a little bit different than actually putting together a bill and sending it through the legislature in an attempt to make a law. If Newt gave a shit about reforming healthcare he would have put forth a real law back when he had control of both houses of congress. Except he didn't. He just killed Clinton's plan and did nothing further. That is what will happen again if the GOP has its way.

That's fine with me. I don't want 0bama screwing with my insurance. I have zero complaints about my insurer.

785 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:37pm

re: #767 Wendya

Why are they exempting government workers, included themselves?

I guess they are just not worthy to live in the same utopia as the rest of us.

786 tedzilla99  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:38pm

A guy on the Rush show today had a brilliant point:

If, as IMPOTUS asserts, the current healthcare and insurance system is harming the economy irreparably and needs an overhaul, then why would he let those of us who like our plans keep them? Add that to the other genius point that if it's so good for us, why won't congress get on the plan too, and you have pretty much nuked this entire mess.

787 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:50pm

100 billion uninsured! (touching pinky to corner of mouth)

788 cronus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:51pm

re: #721 drcordell

But right now the GOP isn't proposing jack shit. They are just trying to kill Obama's plan, and do nothing. I don't think we can afford to do that. If the GOP put forth a sensible plan to reform the insurance industry, streamline regulation across state lines, prevent policies from being cancelled after expensive claims are made etc... I think it could really gain traction. But they aren't. They are just saying NO.

Far from just spouting no, Tim Pawlenty has some suggestions to build upon:

Congress has an opportunity to take a genuinely bipartisan approach to health-care reform, which is unquestionably needed. Instead of tweaking the Democrats' plan to put Washington bureaucrats in charge of health care, I recommend a do-over. There are many common-sense elements that could form the basis for bipartisan health-care reform, including: medical malpractice reform, prohibiting coverage denials based on preexisting conditions, guaranteeing portability, electronic prescriptions and medical records, streamlining billing codes and practices, price and quality transparency, pay-for-performance measures, one-stop primary-care "medical homes," chronic disease management initiatives, tax equity for health insurance purchases, increased incentives for health savings accounts, creating the ability to purchase insurance or form risk pools across state lines, and much more.

789 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:52pm

re: #740 DaddyG

I see POTUS attacking those that diagree with him and asking them to shut up. One of those congresspersons who disagree with him is my representative who is representing my views. Should I let that go since it wasn't "aimed at citizens"?

Well, at least we agree that he isn't talking about you specifically, or those attending town halls.

I think you should attack his position honestly AND an honest attack could include him ignoring your congressman (if your congressman was someone he was directly referring to -- was he part of the problem?).

790 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02:53pm

re: #745 drcordell

Newt Gingrich isn't an elected official.

Do try to remember you said that.

791 jvic  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:03:17pm

re: #630 MJ

She's very nice with a great sense of humor. Madison is a town where a lot of professors run around here thinking they are Plato's Philosopher-Kings...or should be. Ann is not among that group.

I'm glad to hear that even though it's not how I perceive her blogging persona. Note that my post tried to give her credit: perhaps grudging credit, but due credit nevertheless.

re: #461 iceweasel

(don't know if you know about Breast-Gate? )

I just refreshed my memory. Althouse's attitude reminded me why I stopped reading her; I thought Helen Smith made the point better than Althouse did.

That's it from me regarding Althouse. You or MJ are welcome to the last word.

792 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:03:19pm

re: #756 Dianna

I don't want "mandatory counseling" on anything. You have no idea how sinister that feels to me.

Don't worry, it's not going to happen. I was making a hypothetical point.

I'm against mandatory driver's ed, too, by the way. It interferes with natural selection.

793 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:03:38pm
794 96RoadKing  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:03:40pm

re: #725 Shiplord Kirel

"1) We have 50 million uninsured."

Do I hear 52 million? Going once...


Can I get a 300 Million?

795 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:03:41pm

re: #764 96RoadKing

with regards to the contention that:
1) We have 50 million uninsured: statistical red herring. 50 million may be uninsured at any point in the year (may only be one day, there is a large proportion that self insure, etc).
2) Our infant mortality rates are worse than Cuba: please provide data. Are you talking total numbers (US population exponentially larger than Cuba) or percentage of premy births (US has a much better record at actually attempting to provide care to premature babies)...?
3) Our percentage of healthcare...oh, screw it. The number of red herrings to be addressed would take too much time to address!

You are perhaps responding to drcordell?

796 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:03:43pm

re: #759 Cato the Elder

You betcha.

you're all foam...

797 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:03:52pm

re: #648 keithgabryelski

When the people show a general desire for such a thing, it is reasonable for government to use its collective power to help enable access. We may disagree on that statement (or how much of desire is required or how much enabling should be offered).

This amendment (i believe it is an amendment to the bill) was proposed by a Republican. It is generally desired (from what I've read) on both sides of the aisle.

Why is this reasonable?

798 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:04:02pm

This is the section that should concern a lot of people...

Sec. 401. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.

Of course, this is a proposal, not the plan, so, we shouldn't worry about this, or talk about this until after it becomes an actual bill, and then it's the real plan, and then there is nothing we can do about it... oh.,.. this is hurting my head.

799 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:04:08pm

re: #760 Dianna

58!

60!

800 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:04:32pm

re: #754 jaunte

"What will it take to get you into a health care plan today?"

Trust me, you won't be sorry buying this plan. Just sign here.

801 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #773 Dianna

BTW:

Go, Shiplord!

Sold! To Dianna for 58 million, healthcare for life (except heart transplants, of course).

802 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:04:42pm

re: #757 Walter L. Newton

No, you keep misquoting the statistics and the numbers which leads to the incredibility of any of your statements. Such as telling us that Obama's statement about keeping people from talking was OLD, or stating 50 million lacking insurance when even the administration just last week used the figure 48 million (and has been for a few years).

So, the point is, you jump in here, drop all sort of statistics, when anyone doesn't agree with you 100 percent, you start using obscene language and then drop back and complain that everyone is nick-picking.

Lame.

Follow the thread. I made a single comment about how broken the healthcare system was, and was asked to quantify that statement by buzzsaw. So then I drop the statistics, and instead of a meaningful rebuttal, you start quibbling over 50 million uninsured vs. 48 million uninsured. It's absolutely laughable. Nobody here is interesting in doing anything except Obama bashing apparently.

803 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:04:43pm

re: #755 buzzsawmonkey

Well, our crime rate did skyrocket, and Cuba's probably declined, when they sent much of their criminal class to us via the Mariel boatlift...

Thanks, Jimmah!

804 coldwarrior  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:04:47pm

re: #779 Ben Hur

The FACT that all these FACTS are caused by the FACT that doctors have to cover their asses from the FACT of predetory malpractice lawsuits that, as a matter of FACT cause an insane increase to health COSTS (Not ACCESS) that get passed on to the patients from the doctors?

refrm needs to start here...with the lawsuits

805 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:04:47pm

re: #759 Cato the Elder

You betcha.

I'm keeping my fingers off the keyboard. I'm not even dinging you on this one.

This should tell you how little I approve of that statement to which Silvergirl responded, much more politely than I would.

806 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:05:16pm

The trajectory of state run health care and "end of life care."

Present day Oregon.
Letter noting assisted suicide raises questions

Her doctor offered hope in the new chemotherapy drug Tarceva, but the Oregon Health Plan sent her a letter telling her the cancer treatment was not approved.

Instead, the letter said, the plan would pay for comfort care, including "physician aid in dying," better known as assisted suicide.

To the present day Netherlands...
Euthanasia in the Netherlands

1,040 people (an average of 3 per day) died from involuntary euthanasia, meaning that doctors actively killed these patients without the patients' knowledge or consent
807 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:05:25pm

re: #805 Dianna

I'm keeping my fingers off the keyboard. I'm not even dinging you on this one.

This should tell you how little I approve of that statement to which Silvergirl responded, much more politely than I would.

I'm crushed.

808 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:27pm

re: #780 MandyManners

I was speaking specifically of advanced directives and living wills.

I don't have the numbers -- It doesn't seem to be a point of contention (other than manufactured contention that it is a "death panel" that chooses who lives and who dies).

809 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:28pm

re: #802 drcordell

Follow the thread. I made a single comment about how broken the healthcare system was, and was asked to quantify that statement by buzzsaw. So then I drop the statistics, and instead of a meaningful rebuttal, you start quibbling over 50 million uninsured vs. 48 million uninsured. It's absolutely laughable. Nobody here is interesting in doing anything except Obama bashing apparently.

And after your last reply above, I should add, you don't answer anyone when a direct question is asked of you.

810 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:30pm

re: #798 Walter L. Newton

This is the section that should concern a lot of people...

Sec. 401. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.

Of course, this is a proposal, not the plan, so, we shouldn't worry about this, or talk about this until after it becomes an actual bill, and then it's the real plan, and then there is nothing we can do about it... oh.,.. this is hurting my head.

This 'lawmaking by agency' effect should worry everyone, no matter where they are on the political spectrum.

811 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:30pm

re: #784 Ward Cleaver

That's fine with me. I don't want 0bama screwing with my insurance. I have zero complaints about my insurer.

I have more than 0 complaints about my current health care, but orders of magnitude less than the complaints I have with letting the government run it.

812 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:44pm

re: #784 Ward Cleaver

That's fine with me. I don't want 0bama screwing with my insurance. I have zero complaints about my insurer.

Right. You have zero complaints with your insurer because up until this point you've been a nice fat cash cow for them. Add up all the claims you've made and contrast that with the amount of premiums you've paid.

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

813 esch  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:45pm

re: #761 MandyManners

ATTENUATED? Wow.

So, if you're under 15 or over 40, your chances to get a donated organ will be slim BY LAW?

Great catch. I've not had time to Google Dr. Emmanuel.

'Attenuated'.

Ah a brand new shiny fresh euphemism for progressives to use. Helps you escape the Ellison 'guilt-trap'.

814 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:52pm

re: #753 Silvergirl

Over the top.

At least he didn't draw parallels with 1930's European socialism and bring down the wrath of Godwin on our thread. /

815 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:53pm

OT: Perseid Meteor Shower to Yield 80 Meteors an Hour?

From any vantage point in the world, you might see more than 80 meteors an hour streak across the sky during the best viewing time, when the moon's glare will be weakest—late Tuesday night and into the wee hours of Wednesday, local cloud and lighting conditions permitting.
...
The moon will provide some interference for the Perseids, at just over half full and rising around midnight. The best advice: Look away from the moon—and all other lights—so your eyes stay as dark-adapted as possible.

To see the Perseid meteor shower, bring a blanket to a place away from city lights and lay on your back, taking in as much of the sky as possible.

816 lincolntf  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:06:56pm

Never before has a "Right' been so vociferously opposed by the people who were supposed to get that "Right".

90% insured, best outcomes in the world, most technological/pharmaceutical innovation in the world and THIS is the system that needs an overhaul? Gimme a freakin' break.
It's just a big-ass power/money grab and everybody knows it.

817 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:07:02pm

re: #738 jaunte

The costs don't go away just because they go public.

24% of registered voters think the government has its own money.

818 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:07:08pm

re: #782 Cato the Elder

How is what Palin said not using Trig for demagogic purposes? She knows it's a damned lie. She should be deeply, deeply ashamed of herself.

And my retreat has been postponed until Labor Day. Thanks for asking. ;^)

Yes, I know your retreat is postponed.

I said before that I don't stand by her words in that case (Obama death panel, etc) because they were over the top (yeah, you betcha), but I don't believe she was lying! I also don't get behind the idea she was using her son. As I posted earlier, special needs parents can be wary of injustices, and react like other parents who want to protect their children.

819 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:07:15pm

re: #807 Cato the Elder

I'm crushed.

c'mon...it's only a scratch

820 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:07:21pm

re: #798 Walter L. Newton

This is the section that should concern a lot of people...

Sec. 401. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.

Of course, this is a proposal, not the plan, so, we shouldn't worry about this, or talk about this until after it becomes an actual bill, and then it's the real plan, and then there is nothing we can do about it... oh.,.. this is hurting my head.


It's just ideas, you know ideas,subject for discussion.
Just shut up if you disagree & if you resist the peaceful SEIU guys will pay a visit.

821 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:07:32pm

re: #812 drcordell

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

Show us evidence that he would be treated better under Obama Care.

822 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:07:34pm

re: #809 Walter L. Newton

And after your last reply above, I should add, you don't answer anyone when a direct question is asked of you.

What was your question?

823 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:08:01pm

re: #725 Shiplord Kirel

"1) We have 50 million uninsured."

Do I hear 52 million? Going once...

If true, it's the highest of the figures I've seen batted around, which normally range between 30 to 40 million.

But let's go with 50 million. That means that ~15% of the 300+ million in the country are uninsured. It also means that the system proponents of the current bill want to completely scrap and replace successfully delivers health care coverage to ~85% of the entire population. In real life, this probably rises to well over 90% using uninflated numbers, but even so, it hardly seems that the current system is broken so utterly that it needs to be completely tossed out and rebuilt from the ground up.

How about fixing Medicare and Medicaid - you know, just to prove that the government is capable of running even a small-scale health care system better than abysmally - and then maybe tweaking those systems just a bit to pick up the alleged slack? Currently, Medicare covers around 30 million people - a rough doubling of the Medicare program would scoop up the remaining uninsured. Work the bugs out of those systems, and let's have a look at the results to see if the rest of us want to join.

Or not.

824 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:08:01pm

re: #745 drcordell

Newt Gingrich isn't an elected official.

...nor is Sarah Palin.

825 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:08:11pm

re: #817 jcm

24% of registered voters think the government has its own money.

"We can get the votes, all we need are a few more ignorant people!"

826 96RoadKing  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:08:19pm

Can't...keep...up...with...thread >cough, wheeze

827 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:08:31pm

re: #797 WinterCat

Why is this reasonable?

Are you asking about the general case of "the will of people be represented" or the specific case of this amendment?

828 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:08:32pm

re: #704 Czarny_Smok

Sorry if this has been posted before:

If you want a glimpse into how ObamaCare will work (despite all the denials) take a look at Rahm Emanuel’s brother's thinking at “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” by Govind Persad BS , Alan Wertheimer PhD , Ezekiel J Emanuel MD at The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009. The Good Dr. Emanuel is a healthcare advisor for The Bama.

"Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles."
And . . .

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

One might note some comparison to an early allocation program - - Aktion T4 - - very popular in Germany around 1939-1941

This and No. 778 might be where folks are getting the notion that there will be a "death panel".

829 JacksonTn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:08:48pm

re: #822 drcordell

What was your question?

dc ... was there a shift change? ...

830 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:08:48pm

re: #821 Wendya

Show us evidence that he would be treated better under Obama Care.

I can guarantee that his coverage wouldn't be pulled because of a mistake he made while filling out his application or a "pre-existing condition."

831 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:09:29pm

re: #816 lincolntf

Never before has a "Right' been so vociferously opposed by the people who were supposed to get that "Right".

90% insured, best outcomes in the world, most technological/pharmaceutical innovation in the world and THIS is the system that needs an overhaul? Gimme a freakin' break.
It's just a big-ass power/money grab and everybody knows it.

there is no health care crisis

832 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:09:38pm

re: #807 Cato the Elder

I'm crushed.

We can only hope.

833 Locker  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:09:56pm

Don't know if anyone posted this but here is a one view of the health care situation from outside of the US. I found it interesting:

The Mob Mentality

834 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:01pm

re: #815 Killgore Trout

OT: Perseid Meteor Shower to Yield 80 Meteors an Hour?

Thanks for posting some useful and accurate information.

835 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:05pm

re: #817 jcm

24% of registered voters think the government has its own money.

How many of those are in Congress and the Obama administration?

836 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:23pm

re: #817 jcm

24% of registered voters think the government has its own money.

Wow, just wow, but I'm willing to bet they could give you a full acount of the last few years of Survivor and American Idol.

837 filetandrelease  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:32pm

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

I would be out looking for a job.

FIFY

838 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:34pm

re: #822 drcordell

What was your question?

Why did you tell me that Obama's "But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking" comment was OLD? It was made on Aug. 7th, last week, in Mclean Va.

839 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:34pm

re: #813 esch

'Attenuated'.

Ah a brand new shiny fresh euphemism for progressives to use. Helps you escape the Ellison 'guilt-trap'.

Well, it was a scholarly piece of writing. Scholars like big words.

840 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:40pm

re: #824 Pianobuff

...nor is Sarah Palin.

DR went to great lengths to explain that to me while conveniently ignoring that I also posted a link to a proposal by Rep Paul Ryan who IS an elected official after DR stated the repubs have no plan!

841 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:51pm

re: #802 drcordell

Nobody here is interesting in doing anything except Obama bashing apparently.


It appears that way to you because of your political sensitivities. Take off your magic cloak and Victim hood, and you can perhaps find the zillions of proposals Republicans have been making for years. Tort reform, one of the foremost, in hundreds of varieties.
Plaintiffs Attorneys drive the single largest, most easily reined in segment of bullshit costs in healthcare.
Reform Tort law in medicine, and we will see it in the bottom line from coast to coast.

Liberals? Not interested in it. Nowhere in this, the mosty sweeping changes proposed.
This is like greens vs. nuclear power. If they were serious, they would be all over the thing they fight the hardest. The motivation here is not to fix a capitalist health care system. The motivation is to replace it with a socialist one.

842 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:10:59pm

re: #825 jaunte

"We can get the votes, all we need are a few more ignorant people!"

24% think the government has it's own money, another 28% think they are owed something.

52%...

//

843 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:11:10pm

re: #815 Killgore Trout

I blame CO2. //

844 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:11:24pm

re: #832 Silvergirl

We can only hope.

you just don't understand Cato...neither do I but that's beside the point

845 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:11:33pm

re: #792 Cato the Elder

Don't worry, it's not going to happen. I was making a hypothetical point.

I'm against mandatory driver's ed, too, by the way. It interferes with natural selection.

Ha!

846 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:11:55pm

re: #719 MandyManners

DENVER -- Sen. Barack Obama's campaign organized its supporters Wednesday night to confront Tribune-owned WGN-AM in Chicago for having a critic of the Illinois Democrat on its air. (Listen to the interview.)

"WGN radio is giving right-wing hatchet man Stanley Kurtz a forum to air his baseless, fear-mongering terrorist smears," Obama's campaign wrote in an e-mail to supporters. "He's currently scheduled to spend a solid two-hour block from 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. pushing lies, distortions, and manipulations about Barack and University of Illinois professor William Ayers."

Kurtz, a conservative writer, recently wrote an article for the National Review that looked at Obama's ties to Ayers, a former 1960s radical who later emerged as a school reform advocate in Chicago.

[Link: www.swamppolitics.com...]

But, Mistah Kurtz, he dead.

847 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:11:58pm

re: #838 Walter L. Newton

Why did you tell me that Obama's "But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking" comment was OLD? It was made on Aug. 7th, last week, in Mclean Va.

Because "old" and "out of context" are the standard knee jerk responses.

848 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:12:09pm

OT: Sekrit transmission from my Politburo meeting:

Cool article for my fellow 'leftists' about the growing trend of rightwing movie criticism, etc


Dispatches From the Konservetkult:
Today's members of the right-wing culture patrol see ideological subtext everywhere they look.

Normal people look at a piece of art and ponder how it changes their view of the world, or how it deepens their appreciation for life. The right's culture critics look at art and ask, "How can this help us win?"

Really does explain a lot. Like the entire existence of Big Hollywood. for one.

849 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:12:21pm

re: #807 Cato the Elder

I'm crushed.

You ought to be.

850 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:12:33pm

re: #814 DaddyG

At least he didn't draw parallels with 1930's European socialism and bring down the wrath of Godwin on our thread. /

No, it was Palin who was trying to do that with her statement. Implicitly but obviously. She was alleging a similarity between what Obama is proposing and the euthanasia boards - actual "death panels" - that terminated so-called lebensunwertes Leben (lives unfit for life) under the Nazis. Palin incurred Godwin's wrath.

Before yesterday I would not have thought my opinion of her could sink lower. I have no printable words fit to describe the utter moral contempt I feel for that filthy demagogue.

851 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:12:46pm

Cutting through all of Dr. Cordell's rhetoric and lefty talking points, there are some sizable nuggets of truth in it.

Health care costs ARE insane and going up at twice the rate of inflation. Fully a third of what I made during my contract in Iraq went for the co-pays on my heart attacks last year. I could afford it, since there was a war on and all, and I don't work cheap, but how many could not? What would their standard of care be? Oh sure, no hospital will turn you away if you are going into cardiac arrest but your credit will be destroyed and what of the meds and followup care that can cost a literal fortune? My Plavix prescription would be something like $300/month if I had to pay it all myself and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

We need a healthy debate on this but the usual suspects have hijacked the issue and turned into a national fist fight.

852 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:12:54pm

re: #830 drcordell

I can guarantee that his coverage wouldn't be pulled because of a mistake he made while filling out his application or a "pre-existing condition."

You can guarantee that?
What do you know that we don't know that you are able to make guarantees about ObamaCare?

853 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:13:01pm

re: #719 MandyManners

I believe they are calling that "astroturfing" now.

854 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:13:07pm

re: #849 Dianna

You ought to be.

You flatter yourself.

855 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:13:19pm

re: #812 drcordell

Right. You have zero complaints with your insurer because up until this point you've been a nice fat cash cow for them. Add up all the claims you've made and contrast that with the amount of premiums you've paid.

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

My wife had GBS in 2005. Blue Cross Blue Shield limited my out of pocket expenses to 5,000, kind of like the contract I signed for it. She is almost 60 now and that same policy costs me $247 per month.

856 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:13:35pm

re: #848 iceweasel

OT: Sekrit transmission from my Politburo meeting:

Cool article for my fellow 'leftists' about the growing trend of rightwing movie criticism, etc


Dispatches From the Konservetkult:
Today's members of the right-wing culture patrol see ideological subtext everywhere they look.

Really does explain a lot. Like the entire existence of Big Hollywood. for one.

I hardly think it's conspiratorial to identify the philosophical underpinnings common to huge swathes of our popular and educational discourse.

857 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:13:56pm

re: #852 reine.de.tout

He means guarantee in the strict non-binding online sense.

858 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:14:03pm

re: #852 reine.de.tout

You can guarantee that?
What do you know that we don't know that you are able to make guarantees about ObamaCare?

Diddley/Squat.

Or, if you prefer, think in terms of Kelvinic temperatures and the cessation of Brownian motion.

859 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:14:12pm

re: #830 drcordell

I can guarantee that his coverage wouldn't be pulled because of a mistake he made while filling out his application or a "pre-existing condition."

Instead, it could get pulled because of a prognosis rating and his quality adjusted years, and whether the procedure falls under table A of subsection 2 in the approved Federal medical procedure guidebook.

860 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:14:13pm

re: #838 Walter L. Newton

Why did you tell me that Obama's "But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking" comment was OLD? It was made on Aug. 7th, last week, in Mclean Va.

That's an old Democrat trick. That is old Walter. If he just said it, it would have been history.

861 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:14:19pm

re: #851 Shiplord Kirel

Cutting through all of Dr. Cordell's rhetoric and lefty talking points, there are some sizable nuggets of truth in it.

There are often sizable nuggets of one substance found within deposits of another.

862 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:14:22pm

re: #850 Cato the Elder

No, it was Palin who was trying to do that with her statement. Implicitly but obviously. She was alleging a similarity between what Obama is proposing and the euthanasia boards - actual "death panels" - that terminated so-called lebensunwertes Leben (lives unfit for life) under the Nazis. Palin incurred Godwin's wrath.

Before yesterday I would not have thought my opinion of her could sink lower. I have no printable words fit to describe the utter moral contempt I feel for that filthy demagogue.

So perhaps you would don one of those lovely t-shirts her detractors wore during the campaign? That much contempt? That filthy?

863 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:14:32pm

re: #704 Czarny_Smok

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated likely will die because they will not get the transplants they need to live.

864 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:14:46pm

Gotta go. Will check back, hours away.

865 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:14:59pm

re: #850 Cato the Elder


Before yesterday I would not have thought my opinion of her could sink lower. I have no printable words fit to describe the utter moral contempt I feel for that filthy demagogue.

Agreed. Yesterday did it for me. Moral contempt is the perfect word. I am morally outraged by her statements and her hypocrisy, and I am gobsmacked that anyone would try to defend her.

866 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:15:21pm

re: #863 MandyManners

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated likely will die because they will not get the transplants they need to live.

What else will be rationed according to age?

867 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:15:33pm

re: #838 Walter L. Newton

Why did you tell me that Obama's "But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking" comment was OLD? It was made on Aug. 7th, last week, in Mclean Va.


I misinterpreted it for another comment that has been bandied about recently that was made several months ago, unrelated to healthcare. Apologies.

The point remains, I still believe our healthcare system needs fixing. Whether its 40 or 50 million uninsured is beside the point. Obama's plan isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing.

868 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:15:41pm

re: #854 Cato the Elder

If you want a fight, go bother someone else.

I dislike the way you're going on and on calling someone a liar when you no more know that than you do the current temperature of my office.

869 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:15:46pm

re: #804 coldwarrior

refrm needs to start here...with the lawsuits

I think we need a tort reform thread. I have seen a number of people post about tort reform but no links. I asked someone last week whether they knew the costs, etc. and they didnt. I dont have the info (I have e-mailed a few lawyers for their respective talking points) but I keep seeing people post that its all about tort reform. So what are the numbers on these runaway lawsuits that are ruining the country?

870 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:15:46pm

re: #856 haakondahl

I hardly think it's conspiratorial to identify the philosophical underpinnings common to huge swathes of our popular and educational discourse.

Nah, no one's alleging conspiracy there. I promise. Nor was I.

871 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:15:58pm

re: #851 Shiplord Kirel

Cutting through all of Dr. Cordell's rhetoric and lefty talking points, there are some sizable nuggets of truth in it.

Health care costs ARE insane and going up at twice the rate of inflation. Fully a third of what I made during my contract in Iraq went for the co-pays on my heart attacks last year. I could afford it, since there was a war on and all, and I don't work cheap, but how many could not? What would their standard of care be? Oh sure, no hospital will turn you away if you are going into cardiac arrest but your credit will be destroyed and what of the meds and followup care that can cost a literal fortune? My Plavix prescription would be something like $300/month if I had to pay it all myself and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

We need a healthy debate on this but the usual suspects have hijacked the issue and turned into a national fist fight.

Nope, the usual suspects have attempted to use health care as another avenue to the socialization of the United States. If it was really about health care reform and trying to lower the cost and cut out waste, abuse and fraud, they would not be going about it in this way. It's pure progressive politics. The left has the advantage and they are making good use of it, turning ever issue into an attempt at weaseling in socialism to ever facet of our lives.

872 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:16:07pm

OT: If this is old, then I apologize but I like the new feature on the "New Comments" button that tells you how many new ones there are. Thanks for always imporving LGF Charles!

873 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:16:10pm

re: #744 Cato the Elder

There is a category in Catholic theology known as invincible ignorance.

We are seeing a great deal of it in the health care debate.

Yet I suspect a great deal more is of the vincible sort. Palin, for example, knows she is lying and continues to lie anyway, though part of her may be convinced that she's doing it for a good cause. To use Trig to frighten people into believing in euthanasia brigades is nothing short of a mortal sin.

Believe me, in Holland and Belgium this is precisely where socialized medicine (and warped versions of secular humanism) have led. I sadly have personal experience with "involuntary euthanasia" attempts in Belgium. And my own "hell no!" attitude about it being regarded as if I came from Mars.

The mainstream media (aside from one newspaper identified with the Christian-Democratic party) there was full of puff pieces about euthanasia. However, some doctors confided in me that what had happened to the medical profession in Belgium made them rue the day they chose to practice medicine.

874 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:16:21pm
875 96RoadKing  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:16:42pm

re: #868 Dianna

If you want a fight, go bother someone else.

I dislike the way you're going on and on calling someone a liar when you no more know that than you do the current temperature of my office.


72 degrees?

876 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:06pm

re: #869 Creeping Eruption

I think we need a tort reform thread. I have seen a number of people post about tort reform but no links. I asked someone last week whether they knew the costs, etc. and they didnt. I dont have the info (I have e-mailed a few lawyers for their respective talking points) but I keep seeing people post that its all about tort reform. So what are the numbers on these runaway lawsuits that are ruining the country?

it's off the table...there is no tort reform and for me that kills the entire bill

877 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:08pm

re: #862 Silvergirl

So perhaps you would don one of those lovely t-shirts her detractors wore during the campaign? That much contempt? That filthy?

She's the filth. And I don't call people dirty names - even Mandy.

But as for contempt - it goes deeper than words.

878 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:18pm

re: #861 haakondahl

There are often sizable nuggets of one substance found within deposits of another.

I live next to a horse ranch which has sizable nuggets in the pasture. I was thinking of those kind.

879 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:30pm

re: #779 Ben Hur

The FACT that all these FACTS are caused by the FACT that doctors have to cover their asses from the FACT of predetory malpractice lawsuits that, as a matter of FACT cause an insane increase to health COSTS (Not ACCESS) that get passed on to the patients from the doctors?

Well, more to the point, the statement that the US spends more per capita on GDP is extremely misleading. We also have the highest rate of elective medical care of pretty much anywhere, and these costs are lumped onto the cited medical expenditures right along with everything else. So the end result is a figure that includes not only heart surgery and cancer treatment, but every tummy tuck, liposuction, boob enhancement, dick extension botox injection distributed. It includes things like cosmetic contact lenses that change eye color, teeth whitening treatments administered by a dentist, cosmetic bonding procedures, collagen injections...the list goes on and on and on. Americans are, indeed, obsessive about this sort of thing, but including in per capita medical expenses and then comparing those expenses with care received by the indigent is basically a colossal lie, since every single one of the procedures mentioned is considered an elective procedure 99.99% of the time, and isn't covered by insurance, and certainly won't be covered by any nationalized health plan, either. It is a false and worthless claim.

880 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:33pm

re: #827 keithgabryelski

Are you asking about the general case of "the will of people be represented" or the specific case of this amendment?



When the people show a general desire for such a thing, it is reasonable for government to use its collective power to help enable access.


I am questioning this very statement.

881 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:41pm

re: #802 drcordell

Follow the thread. I made a single comment about how broken the healthcare system was, and was asked to quantify that statement by buzzsaw. So then I drop the statistics, and instead of a meaningful rebuttal, you start quibbling over 50 million uninsured vs. 48 million uninsured. It's absolutely laughable. Nobody here is interesting in doing anything except Obama bashing apparently.

Whether the figure is 48 or 50 million it is somewhat misleading.
The population inludes young people that do not enter the plan.
It also includes illegal aliens that are not provided for by their employer.

882 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:47pm

re: #865 iceweasel

Agreed. Yesterday did it for me. Moral contempt is the perfect word. I am morally outraged by her statements and her hypocrisy, and I am gobsmacked that anyone would try to defend her.

You have a visceral dislike for Palin. That will of course, color any statement she makes. I understand that, I feel the same way about Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Boxer, etc.. It takes more effort to break down what was actually said, the meaning behind it, rather than fly off the handle.

883 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:53pm

re: #871 Walter L. Newton

Starting with tort reform would be a good way for progressives to show that they really were interested in positive change in health care.

884 Silvergirl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:17:54pm

Thanks for the good reading, folks. I have to fly.

885 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:05pm

re: #855 kansas

My wife had GBS in 2005. Blue Cross Blue Shield limited my out of pocket expenses to 5,000, kind of like the contract I signed for it. She is almost 60 now and that same policy costs me $247 per month.

I'm assuming you might live in Kansas? Healthcare costs are a bit higher elsewhere.

886 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:10pm
887 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:25pm

re: #867 drcordell

I misinterpreted it for another comment that has been bandied about recently that was made several months ago, unrelated to healthcare. Apologies.

The point remains, I still believe our healthcare system needs fixing. Whether its 40 or 50 million uninsured is beside the point. Obama's plan isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing.

I will agree with health care needing fixing, other than that, no agreement. Obama's plan isn't perfect, it's socialism and nationalize health care, plain and simple, and the first step to single payer.

Up ding on the fixin' part.

888 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:29pm

re: #869 Creeping Eruption

I think we need a tort reform thread. I have seen a number of people post about tort reform but no links. I asked someone last week whether they knew the costs, etc. and they didnt. I dont have the info (I have e-mailed a few lawyers for their respective talking points) but I keep seeing people post that its all about tort reform. So what are the numbers on these runaway lawsuits that are ruining the country?

Exactly. This would be an extremely useful debate to have-- especially as none of the current proposals include tort reform.

Instead, we're busy with fake fights like Obama will kill old people, etc. Sad.

889 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:31pm

re: #875 96RoadKing

72 degrees?

Nope.

890 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:33pm

re: #868 Dianna

If you want a fight, go bother someone else.

I dislike the way you're going on and on calling someone a liar when you no more know that than you do the current temperature of my office.

It goes without saying that "Palin is a liar" is my opinion.

I stand by it.

891 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:34pm

re: #826 96RoadKing

Can't...keep...up...with...thread >cough, wheeze

Will Obamacare cover hamster hernias?

892 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:38pm

Traditional Healthcare: getting the treatment needed to keep you alive

Government Healthcare: getting the most cost effective treatment that keeps the system functional for the most number of people.

893 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:47pm

Big Oil.
Big Pharma.
Big Tobacco.
Big Insurance.

Big... Hollywood?

894 midwestgak  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:57pm

re: #821 Wendya

Show us evidence that he would be treated better under Obama Care.

He can't Wendya, there is no bill yet./

895 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:18:59pm

re: #471 jill e
Retitled:
Sort Out/Figure Out Your Dead.
Courtesy, Obamacare.

896 96RoadKing  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:19:03pm

re: #889 Dianna

Nope.

Darn!

897 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:19:06pm

re: #883 jaunte

Starting with tort reform would be a good way for progressives to show that they really were interested in positive change in health care.

What, and ruin the lawyer lottery?

898 coldwarrior  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:19:09pm

re: #869 Creeping Eruption

i know what drs pay for insurance against 'big tort'. but the dems are on the 'big tort' payroll and wont touch tort reform.

everyone should call their doctor and ask how much the practice pays a year for tort insurance, they will tell you; and you will be shocked.

899 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:19:14pm

re: #884 Silvergirl

Thanks for the good reading, folks. I have to fly.

Buckle up!

900 strangelove  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:19:44pm

Yeah, Charles.

This guy looks like a right-wing tea-bagging lunatic:
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

I think people are pissed off and scared...and rightly so. Seems to me that most of the 'mob-like behavior' is from union plants, threatening people who are exercising their constitutional rights. And while you may not like their rowdiness, that type of heated speech is precisely what the Constitution is designed to protect.

For you to quote Sarah Palin in absurd. You don't respect her until she says something you agree with.

901 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:19:44pm

re: #882 Wendya

You have a visceral dislike for Palin.

Wrong. I never did until yesterday, and I posted about that and the reasons for my change then.

902 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:19:47pm

re: #836 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wow, just wow, but I'm willing to bet they could give you a full acount of the last few years of Survivor and American Idol.

I wonder how many in this group are actually paying taxes.

903 mjwsatx  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:20:15pm

re: #867 drcordell

Obama's plan isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing.

And it can't possibly get any worse - can it?

"Better than nothing" and "Can't get any worse" - 2 favorite expressions of very limited thinkers.

904 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:20:18pm

re: #892 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Traditional Healthcare: getting the treatment needed to keep you alive

Government Healthcare: getting the most cost effective treatment that keeps the system functional for the most number of people.

The greatest good for the greatest number.

905 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:20:21pm

re: #893 Ben Hur

LOVE Big Hollywood, courtesy of Breitbart...
[Link: bighollywood.breitbart.com...]

906 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:20:23pm

re: #872 Jetpilot1101

OT: If this is old, then I apologize but I like the new feature on the "New Comments" button that tells you how many new ones there are. Thanks for always imporving LGF Charles!

I don't know, on a fast thread I look at the number and tell my self the glide slope is WAAAY to steep!

//;-P

907 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:20:32pm

re: #580 Thanos

But the gov't does force us to decide for us all the time in a variety of manners. E.G. You can't buy a house through a gov't program without signing a statement that basically says "yes the fine print has been discussed with me" They decide what's good and bad for us as well - fruits and vegetables are good and have no tax, cigarettes and whiskey are bad and carry taxes.

These are just some examples, there are literally thousands.

Sorry, that analogy holds no water. The government decides many things for private citizens and forcefully imposes those decisions; in many cases it has good reasons for doing so, but citing the cases in which it gets away with exercising such authority in no way demonstrates the merits of government fiat in this contemplated scenario, i.e. health care. Just because government does one thing, doesn't mean it should do another.

To some extent, all this noise between the hysterical right-wing-nuts (e.g. "death panels" rhetoric, town-hall fistfights) and the smarmy, arrogant, incompetent Democrats with their ill-conceived and incoherent (but overall disastrous) legislative putsch for taking over health care, sounds like Trifkovic vs. CAIR to me. I regret the tu quoque arguments espoused by many on the right (even on this thread) when their pet causes/politicians are reasonably criticized, but I also, perhaps even more so, am disappointed at the selective focus of some well-meaning folks here (e.g. Ice Weasel) on the irascible and embarrassing behavior of some on the right, as a preclude for discounting legitimate criticism to Obama's plan (of which a lot can be brought forth). This is a classic example of ad hominem: focusing on the messengers (actually, the most irrational and easily deridable specimen thereof) instead of the content of the message.

Sarah Palin does not represent me (I believe it superfluous to try to prove my anti-Palin bona fides in this forum, as my comments have already acted as lightning rods in the past and are probably remembered by many who had meltdowns over them) and neither does Obama (I challenge anyone to find something favorable I have written about him). I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat (no, I'm not a "moderate" either) and I believe if the partisan passions are checked at the door, people could have much more rational debate on this topic, because too much of this commotion is easily filtered emotionality.

On to the Bill: Charles Krauthammer made a lot of sense with his suggestions for reforming health care, centering around 1) tort reform (and no, that's not just some ill-defined GOP talking point, as some on this thread have insinuated) and 2) severing the link between employers and health-insurance. Two other just as easy and effective reforms, so much so that I'm a bit surprised Krauthammer didn't mention them, would be 3) allowing private insurers to compete across state lines, which they are currently not allowed to do and 4) removing nearly all state restrictions on the contents of health-insurance plans (Did you know hair plugs, sex change, and comprehensive mental-health coverage are mandatory in some states, to just name a few such insanities?)

908 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:20:55pm

re: #902 WinterCat

I wonder how many in this group are actually paying taxes.

While they complain about the rich needing to be taxed more.

909 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:20:55pm

re: #888 iceweasel

Exactly. This would be an extremely useful debate to have-- especially as none of the current proposals include tort reform.

Instead, we're busy with fake fights like Obama will kill old people, etc. Sad.

besides you and Cato, I don't think too many people really care what Palin says...a few, but otherwise she seems like yours and his punching bag...

910 drcordell  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:20:58pm

re: #881 opnion

Whether the figure is 48 or 50 million it is somewhat misleading.
The population inludes young people that do not enter the plan.
It also includes illegal aliens that are not provided for by their employer.

Again with the nitpick. The point is not the statistic. The point is that there are millions of people who do not have access to affordable medical care. People who will be forced into bankruptcy if they become seriously ill.

911 96RoadKing  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:05pm

re: #904 MandyManners

The greatest good for the greatest number.

Just so long as I'm covered /

912 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:16pm

At 880 comments, I feel I can go OT just a little bit.

My daughter likes to play online games at some girly site. She said that there are a few games (originating outside of the US) that work like that. You are a girl. The object of your crush comes in and says something. (She says she's not exactly sure what he says.) "You" burst into tears, and go to get a makeover. You get points based on the approval of the crush.

I was speechless for a couple of seconds, and then the poor girl got a rant from Mom. She assures me she thinks the game is stupid. I certainly hope so.

913 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:19pm

re: #907 medaura18586

Allow individuals to buy their insurance anywhere in the 50 states, allow them to customize their plan as much as possible so they get only what they need, and make it easy for them to price hunt for their insurance by taking the onerous task away from employers' hands and empowering individuals to do their own health-insurance shopping. Any contemplated health-care reform that doesn't include these provisions is a steaming pile of dung, and I stand by that assessment. These measures are so fool-proof, so Pareto optimizing (i.e. they would make no one worse off by their adoption, except for, perhaps, insurance lobbyists and tort lawyers) that their exclusion can be nothing short of willful, deliberate, and motivated by something other than health-care recipients' interests in mind.

914 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:22pm

re: #903 mjwsatx

And it can't possibly get any worse - can it?

"Better than nothing" and "Can't get any worse" - 2 favorite expressions of very limited thinkers.

that kind of thinking go Obama elected

915 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:35pm

re: #879 SixDegrees

Well, more to the point, the statement that the US spends more per capita on GDP is extremely misleading. We also have the highest rate of elective medical care of pretty much anywhere, and these costs are lumped onto the cited medical expenditures right along with everything else. So the end result is a figure that includes not only heart surgery and cancer treatment, but every tummy tuck, liposuction, boob enhancement, dick extension botox injection distributed. It includes things like cosmetic contact lenses that change eye color, teeth whitening treatments administered by a dentist, cosmetic bonding procedures, collagen injections...the list goes on and on and on. Americans are, indeed, obsessive about this sort of thing, but including in per capita medical expenses and then comparing those expenses with care received by the indigent is basically a colossal lie, since every single one of the procedures mentioned is considered an elective procedure 99.99% of the time, and isn't covered by insurance, and certainly won't be covered by any nationalized health plan, either. It is a false and worthless claim.

Thanks for that!

I never considered it.

916 humpty dumpty was pushed  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:39pm

Palin is a fine person and a shining babasaurus but to describe her political approach as unpolished would be an understatement. Her call for a little restraint at town halls was warranted. Her death panel hyperbole was a bit over the top. There are things to admire about her and things to lament. I`m glad she`s out there doing her thing, whatever that is.

917 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:47pm

re: #901 iceweasel

Wrong. I never did until yesterday, and I posted about that and the reasons for my change then.

You have never liked Palin and you've made it pretty clear.

918 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:51pm

re: #866 MandyManners

What else will be rationed according to age?

You just have to be 'more willing to accept “hopeless diagnoses”'

919 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:52pm

re: #900 strangelove

Um? The mark of a man's (or woman's) genius is how far he agrees with you.

That's pretty much standard for the entire world.

920 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:55pm

re: #907 medaura18586

You might want to check out No. 704.

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

921 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:59pm

re: #888 iceweasel

Exactly. This would be an extremely useful debate to have-- especially as none of the current proposals include tort reform.

Instead, we're busy with fake fights like Obama will kill old people, etc. Sad.

And we have time for meaningful debate. I just as well the crazies get it over with, have their say, we call them out and we still have a good month for decent discussion. I say speak out.

922 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:21:59pm

Why is anyone trusting data coming out of a country in which you can be shot for sending in a report that makes the head guy unhappy?

923 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:22:45pm

re: #812 drcordell

Right. You have zero complaints with your insurer because up until this point you've been a nice fat cash cow for them. Add up all the claims you've made and contrast that with the amount of premiums you've paid.

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

Hello stupid. My wife was treated for inflammatory breast cancer in 2005-2006. Four rounds of chemotherapy, plus Herceptin (monoclonal antibody) therapy, followed by a double mastectomy (one radical, one simple), four more rounds of chemo, 33 radiation treatments. Not to mention CAT scans, breast MRIs, PET scans, etc. And after that, breast reconstruction (DIEP FLAP procedure), which wasn't cheap.

Before Herceptin came along, IBC had a five year survival rate of 15%. My insurer (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) never questioned a claim, and continues to pay for PET scans, which are not cheap.

So you think before you put on your condescension hat.

924 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:22:59pm

re: #885 drcordell

I'm assuming you might live in Kansas? Healthcare costs are a bit higher elsewhere.

Yeah, and healthcare costs are cheaper elsewhere too. So what?

925 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:23:25pm

re: #778 redstateredneck

Another link to info on Zeke that I posted upthread.

Fro the article you quoted:

Yes, that's what patients want their doctors to do. But Emanuel wants doctors to look beyond the needs of their patients and consider social justice, such as whether the money could be better spent on somebody else.

Many doctors are horrified by this notion; they'll tell you that a doctor's job is to achieve social justice one patient at a time.

I never thought anybody could make me hate the very sound of these words: "Social justice". American left-liberals succeeded. Because they have turned the term into another "people's democracy" term: one that actually means the radical opposite of its literally parsed meaning.

926 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:23:32pm

re: #902 WinterCat

I wonder how many in this group are actually paying taxes.

I was thinking about stopping. It seems to be kind of a pain in the ass.

927 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:23:51pm

re: #918 jcm

Research and development will code, and the Harvey Team will have been phased out.

928 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:23:53pm

how did BO buy off the pharms and the AMA?...

929 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:23:59pm

re: #907 medaura18586

Upding, but as to this?

t I also, perhaps even more so, am disappointed at the selective focus of some well-meaning folks here (e.g. Ice Weasel) on the irascible and embarrassing behavior of some on the right

You'll find I've consistently discussed the proposals in depth here (if not on this thread), and have decried the tactics of the right not merely for how awful they are but because they shut off all debate-- the debate we need to be having on real issues.

Apart from that though, well said.

930 keithgabryelski  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:24:17pm

re: #880 WinterCat

I am questioning this very statement.

Government is designed to help communities organize, do we agree?

Said organization's purpose is for purposes designed by the people, do we agree?

One of the features of an organized group its ability to work at an economy of scale.

my quote:

When the people show a general desire for such a thing, it is reasonable for government to use its collective power to help enable access.

When people desire something they can pressure their representatives to help them achieve that goal using the economies of scale a group can achieve.

931 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:24:52pm

re: #928 albusteve

We're the ones who'll buy the pharm...

932 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:24:55pm

re: #928 albusteve

how did BO buy off the pharms and the AMA?...

Everybody pays.

933 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:24:58pm

re: #923 Ward Cleaver

Amen, and prayers for your family.

934 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:25:03pm

re: #917 Wendya

You have never liked Palin and you've made it pretty clear.

Lie. I have made clear that I didn't like her for a veep.

I've also made clear, on multiple occasions, that I had sympathy for her as a person.

935 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:25:06pm

re: #812 drcordell

Right. You have zero complaints with your insurer because up until this point you've been a nice fat cash cow for them. Add up all the claims you've made and contrast that with the amount of premiums you've paid.

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

Oh yeah, you can go look through my posts from 2005 about June and her IBC. Long-time lizards remember.

936 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:25:08pm

re: #778 redstateredneck

Another link to info on Zeke that I posted upthread.

Emanuel, however, believes that "communitarianism" should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia" (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. '96).

937 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:25:08pm

re: #876 albusteve

it's off the table...there is no tort reform and for me that kills the entire bill

My question goes to your (not you specifically) position that tort reform is a necessity to solving some of the health care related problems in this country. Upon what is your opinion based? Numbers? Personal experience? Etc. . . This is a honest question by the way, not fishing for a tort reform fight.

So for you, there is no tort reform so the entire bill is a nonstarter. That is a very strong position to take.

938 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:25:16pm

re: #910 drcordell

Again with the nitpick. The point is not the statistic. The point is that there are millions of people who do not have access to affordable medical care. People who will be forced into bankruptcy if they become seriously ill.

And there are plenty of people who would like to be taller but it will never happen. It's not some sort of right. It would be nice, I would love it (I can't afford any health care insurance), but this nationalization of health care is not the answer. I would be one of the first to benefit from it, but no way, I would rather die before I let this country become another socialistic failure.

939 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:25:50pm

re: #913 medaura18586

Most agreed. That is exactly why this Obama/Democrat health care bill/proposal is such a steaming pile of dung. It includes none of what you said, and everything of what the proposal shouldn't.

Just because it is out there, and even if it had no competing proposals, does not make it "better than doing nothing". What some here forget is that doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing. We don't need more unintended consequences.

940 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:25:58pm

re: #933 Kenneth

Amen, and prayers for your family.

Thanks Kenneth. In remission for 3-1/2 years now. You never know when it might come back.

941 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:26:07pm

re: #910 drcordell

Again with the nitpick. The point is not the statistic. The point is that there are millions of people who do not have access to affordable medical care. People who will be forced into bankruptcy if they become seriously ill.

I'm confused.

So emergency rooms are now turning away people without insurance?

942 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:26:14pm

re: #910 drcordell

Again with the nitpick. The point is not the statistic. The point is that there are millions of people who do not have access to affordable medical care. People who will be forced into bankruptcy if they become seriously ill.

As a member in good standing of non-profit world, let me clue you in: no one is denied access to medical care.

As someone with a close friend who is dealing with the (uninsured) costs of two hospitalizations: the hospitals go out of their way to help. The drug companies go out of their way to help. My friend will not go bankrupt, and in no way is a medical bill allowed to show up on your credit rating.

I hate this idiocy. You're absolutely wrong, you don't know anything about how the charitable system works, and you're a liar.

943 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:26:22pm

re: #935 Ward Cleaver

Oh yeah, you can go look through my posts from 2005 about June and her IBC. Long-time lizards remember.

I remember. I'm glad she's doing well.

944 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:26:34pm
945 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:26:39pm

re: #936 MandyManners

Emanuel, however, believes that "communitarianism" should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia" (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. '96).

I'm gonna' look for that Hastings Center Report. If anyone else wants to do so, please join in.

946 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:26:39pm

re: #922 EmmmieG

Why is anyone trusting data coming out of a country in which you can be shot for sending in a report that makes the head guy unhappy?

Because if it backs up their claim, it must be true.

947 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:26:55pm

re: #937 Creeping Eruption

The lack of a tort reform movement in a Democrat administration can be explained in two words:
John Edwards.

948 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:27:14pm

re: #897 kansas

What, and ruin the lawyer lottery?

Huh?

949 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:27:23pm

re: #936 MandyManners

Emanuel, however, believes that "communitarianism" should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia" (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. '96).

Is he actually saying that those who cannot work should not get health care?

950 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:27:44pm

re: #913 medaura18586

Allow individuals to buy their insurance anywhere in the 50 states, allow them to customize their plan as much as possible so they get only what they need, and make it easy for them to price hunt for their insurance by taking the onerous task away from employers' hands and empowering individuals to do their own health-insurance shopping. Any contemplated health-care reform that doesn't include these provisions is a steaming pile of dung, and I stand by that assessment. These measures are so fool-proof, so Pareto optimizing (i.e. they would make no one worse off by their adoption, except for, perhaps, insurance lobbyists and tort lawyers) that their exclusion can be nothing short of willful, deliberate, and motivated by something other than health-care recipients' interests in mind.

This is an issue where an independent doctor told me the right does need to steal the democrats play book and speak up for CHOICE. Allow people choice in their medical care. He said a lot that night I met him that really stuck with me, and our rights to choice our doctors really was the brass ring for me.

951 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:27:48pm
952 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:28:05pm

re: #898 coldwarrior

i know what drs pay for insurance against 'big tort'. but the dems are on the 'big tort' payroll and wont touch tort reform.

everyone should call their doctor and ask how much the practice pays a year for tort insurance, they will tell you; and you will be shocked.

That does not tell me anything.

953 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:28:10pm

re: #948 Creeping Eruption

Huh?

Lawyers use malpractice laws like the lottery. One big score and it's retirement baby.

954 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:28:10pm

re: #943 doppelganglander

I remember. I'm glad she's doing well.

Thanks doppel.

955 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:28:16pm

re: #937 Creeping Eruption

My question goes to your (not you specifically) position that tort reform is a necessity to solving some of the health care related problems in this country. Upon what is your opinion based? Numbers? Personal experience? Etc. . . This is a honest question by the way, not fishing for a tort reform fight.

So for you, there is no tort reform so the entire bill is a nonstarter. That is a very strong position to take.

it's the largest operating expense doctors pay for and a multi billion dollar feast for tort lawyers...I have all the stats but refuse to share them

956 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:28:29pm
957 coldwarrior  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:28:49pm

re: #952 Creeping Eruption

oh, yeah...the costs get passed on to the consumer, the patient.

958 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:28:58pm
959 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:09pm
960 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:10pm

re: #910 drcordell

Again with the nitpick. The point is not the statistic. The point is that there are millions of people who do not have access to affordable medical care. People who will be forced into bankruptcy if they become seriously ill.

It is hardly nitpicking to point out that a large part of the uninsured populatio cosists of the young who out of the health plan & illegals.
Subtract that number & the uninsured population is less daunting to deal with.
Your point about people being ruined due to lack of coverage & catqastrophic illness is well taken. So adress that population through reform , rather than trash the most effective health system in the world.

961 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:13pm

Lizards, I have been a faithful government employee for 15+ years and you don't want the government anywhere near your healthcare.

962 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:15pm

re: #953 kansas

Lawyers use malpractice laws like the lottery. One big score and it's retirement baby.

Silky Pony!

963 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:19pm

re: #920 MandyManners

You might want to check out No. 704.

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

Yes, I've checked it. It's justified under the actuarial alchemy calculus called comparative effectiveness research. But Palin & co. are populist dickheads who cannot resist the temptation to conflate standards of health-care with their socially conservative pet causes. There is absolutely no reason to exemplify the shortcomings of comparative effectiveness research with a controversial topic such as euthanasia. If she were interested in something more than red-meat, a lot more down-to-earth and realistic scenarios could be used, many of them lifted from the data provided by countries that have already adopted nationalized health-care guided by comparative effectiveness research, such as the UK.

I'll dig a great non-controversial non-extreme example out for you in just a second. Please give me a moment.

964 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:21pm

re: #945 MandyManners

I'm gonna' look for that Hastings Center Report. If anyone else wants to do so, please join in.

I got this far.

[Link: findarticles.com...]

965 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:54pm

Health Care's Six Money-Wasting Problems

Down the drain: $1.2 trillion.

That's half of the $2.2 trillion the United States spends on health care each year, according to the most recent data from accounting firm PricewaterhouseCoopers' Health Research Institute.

966 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:54pm

re: #935 Ward Cleaver

Oh yeah, you can go look through my posts from 2005 about June and her IBC. Long-time lizards remember.

I remember.

967 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:29:54pm
968 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:30:15pm

re: #962 jcm

Silky Pony!

He's just the most infamous.

969 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:30:26pm

re: #942 Dianna

As a member in good standing of non-profit world, let me clue you in: no one is denied access to medical care.

As someone with a close friend who is dealing with the (uninsured) costs of two hospitalizations: the hospitals go out of their way to help. The drug companies go out of their way to help. My friend will not go bankrupt, and in no way is a medical bill allowed to show up on your credit rating.

I hate this idiocy. You're absolutely wrong, you don't know anything about how the charitable system works, and you're a liar.

The hospitals do indeed go out of their way to help. My daughter's pregnancy was not covered, and the hospital's charge for uninsured patients was substantially lower than their rate for regularly insured patients. The bill for it was actually affordable.

970 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:30:31pm

My we're getting snippy.

971 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:30:36pm

re: #959 Ward Cleaver

Oink!

THAT'S boorish

972 shiek al beif salami  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:30:48pm

re: #950 Sharmuta

Allow people choice in their health care decisions??? Who. Has. Any. Bleeding. Authority. To. Allow. Free. People. Their. God-given. Choices?

973 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:31:07pm

re: #949 MandyManners

What on earth did Mr. and Mrs. Emmanuel do to produce two such sons?

Forgoing compassion to the helpless is so dark ages.

974 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:31:12pm

re: #910 drcordell

Again with the nitpick. The point is not the statistic. The point is that there are millions of people who do not have access to affordable medical care. People who will be forced into bankruptcy if they become seriously ill.

Even if we accept your 50 million estimate - the highest I've ever run across, with 30 to 40 million being more common - that means the current system successfully provides medical coverage to ~85% of the population, currently around 305 million.

Hardly seems like a system that needs total destruction and replacement to me.

975 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:31:16pm

re: #913 medaura18586

Allow individuals to buy their insurance anywhere in the 50 states, allow them to customize their plan as much as possible so they get only what they need, and make it easy for them to price hunt for their insurance by taking the onerous task away from employers' hands and empowering individuals to do their own health-insurance shopping.

I love the concept of HSAs. Purchase a high deductible health plan and bank the money you would have spent on a more comprehensive policy tax free. Under the house and senate version, I would be fined for having an HSA because it wouldn't count as a qualifying plan. It's more cost effective for me to pay for regular visits out of my HSA account than it is to pay thousands more per year for all the bells and whistles. It's a more effective use of MY money.

976 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:31:16pm

re: #965 Sharmuta

Interesting that "Ignoring doctor's orders" costs $100 billion a year.

977 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:31:29pm

re: #967 iceweasel

Downdinged for illiteracy as well as sheer rudeness.

Apparently it was not illiterate, and as for rudeness, calling people liars repeatedly seems a tad boorish and rude.

978 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:31:34pm

re: #967 iceweasel

Downdinged for illiteracy as well as sheer rudeness.

Kansas was simply explaining the play on words

979 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:02pm

re: #920 MandyManners

You might want to check out No. 704.

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

Speaking of which: has it occurred to anybody else that senior citizens seem to have significant presence at these "townhall" meetings? Or, for that matter, that senior citizens are tearing up their AARP membership cards in protest against the 0bama sycophancy of the new AARP leadership?

Senior citizens on Medicare have nothing to gain from 0bamacare (unlike, say, illegal immigrants or those too poor for private insurance and not poor enough for Medicaid), and quite a bit to lose.

980 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:05pm

re: #934 iceweasel

Lie. I have made clear that I didn't like her for a veep.

I've also made clear, on multiple occasions, that I had sympathy for her as a person.

It is not a lie.

981 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:14pm
982 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:23pm

One of the things that worries me is getting railroaded to some kook doctor who thinks immunizations are causing autism, or something like that. I want to be able to choose my own doctor, and I want to be able to afford it.

983 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:35pm

re: #963 medaura18586

I'm not stupid. I can read English no matter how high-faluting its pretense.

984 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:35pm

re: #968 kansas

He's just the most infamous.

I've actually for real, had lawyers with police and fire scanners show up at accident scenes.

Ambulance chasing is a real thing.

985 shiek al beif salami  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:36pm

re: #973 EmmmieG

Clearly, they chose not to have abortions.

986 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:36pm

re: #961 Jetpilot1101

Lizards, I have been a faithful government employee for 15+ years and you don't want the government anywhere near your healthcare.

Both my parents worked for the government for decades, and after listening to their horror stories of the office bureaucracy, I couldn't agree more.

987 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:36pm

re: #965 Sharmuta

Health Care's Six Money-Wasting Problems

Wasted? Just gone? Not spent on the economy, food, cars, housing, office rent, employees, taxes, nothing? Just gone? Shit.

988 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:38pm

re: #945 MandyManners

I'm gonna' look for that Hastings Center Report. If anyone else wants to do so, please join in.

I'm going to blue my nic. Please forward it to my email; I really have to dance with my numbers.

989 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:45pm

re: #980 Wendya

It is not a lie.

You asserted I had a visceral dislike of Palin before this event.

That is a lie.

990 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:47pm

re: #929 iceweasel

Upding, but as to this?


You'll find I've consistently discussed the proposals in depth here (if not on this thread), and have decried the tactics of the right not merely for how awful they are but because they shut off all debate-- the debate we need to be having on real issues.

Apart from that though, well said.

Damn right! Praise the Lord that we have SEIU to restore order & sanity.

991 mjwsatx  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:32:56pm

re: #923 Ward Cleaver

Yes - Here's another story.

My wife was diagnosed with MS over 10 years ago. We have BC/BS and it has paid for all of her medical costs AND her very expensive weekly Avonex injections (about $300/week). I read that the NICE council in Great Britain has refused to pay for Avonex injections for MS patients. Of course we have had co-payments but our health insurance has saved our butts and the Avonex has kept the MS progression at a slow rate. I would not be as certain of our future if ObamaCare becomes a reality. Unlike Dr. Cordell - I know things can always get worse.

992 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:33:03pm

re: #976 jaunte

Interesting that "Ignoring doctor's orders" costs $100 billion a year.

How do you suppose they figured that?

993 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:33:07pm

re: #981 taxfreekiller

my guess is the big ins. /parm. companies and many in the medical field
are, on the side line due to fear of what would happen to them if this passes and they are on record of almost winning the fight with their $$ ect. so they watch as "We the People" do the fighting for them.

If we loose many of them will go to India/ ?China, other places or cash out and go into other lines of buss with the capital they have left

that is what we have done with 1/2 of grand dads capital

we have cashed out part and moved it to three other countries
as a safety place if these Donks succeed in screwing up the U.S.A.

They just want to cut their best deal, like the AMA.

994 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:33:22pm

re: #982 Sharmuta

One of the things that worries me is getting railroaded to some kook doctor who thinks immunizations are causing autism, or something like that. I want to be able to choose my own doctor, and I want to be able to afford it.

Don't forget Van Jones, the new czar!

995 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:33:24pm

re: #967 iceweasel
Actually, its use was not at all illiterate.
[Link: www.thefreedictionary.com...]

996 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:06pm

re: #976 jaunte

Interesting that "Ignoring doctor's orders" costs $100 billion a year.

Wonder what percent is from anti-vaxers with sick kids.

997 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:11pm

re: #984 jcm

I've actually for real, had lawyers with police and fire scanners show up at accident scenes.

Ambulance chasing is a real thing.

I know. There's a quack lawyer here who gets copies of police reports and has some scam organization call people encouraging them to go to his doctor.

998 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:20pm

re: #910 drcordell

Here's where you and the left are off the rails, imho

We have no disagreement that there are problems in our current health care system. We may even agree as to what and to what extent some of those problems are

Where we are at odds is this

Every time I get a flat tire, or I get a dent, or need an oil change I do NOT buy a new car
I fix and take care of the problems with the one I have

999 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:21pm

re: #947 tradewind

The lack of a tort reform movement in a Democrat administration can be explained in two words:
John Edwards.

I am asking about the need for tort reform in the first instance. It seems that most people here have moved past that point - I'm still there.

1000 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:26pm

re: #981 taxfreekiller

my guess is the big ins. /parm. companies and many in the medical field
are, on the side line due to fear of what would happen to them if this passes and they are on record of almost winning the fight with their $$ ect. so they watch as "We the People" do the fighting for them.

If we loose many of them will go to India/ ?China, other places or cash out and go into other lines of buss with the capital they have left

that is what we have done with 1/2 of grand dads capital

we have cashed out part and moved it to three other countries
as a safety place if these Donks succeed in screwing up the U.S.A.

good explanatin...time to have a fallback plan...we'll see

1001 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:40pm
1002 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:48pm

re: #992 reine.de.tout

The article says: 'talking to doctors, nurses, hospital groups and patient advocacy groups.' Sounds anecdotal.

1003 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:50pm

I was having a conversation with someone about this very subject. She commented that it was sad that in such a rich country, we couldn't find money for the poor to have health care.

A. The wealth of the United States is not a free-floating mass, like the cloud cover. It belongs to individuals people.

B. The poor have health care right now. It's called Medicare.

1004 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:34:54pm

re: #991 mjwsatx

Yes - Here's another story.

My wife was diagnosed with MS over 10 years ago. We have BC/BS and it has paid for all of her medical costs AND her very expensive weekly Avonex injections (about $300/week). I read that the NICE council in Great Britain has refused to pay for Avonex injections for MS patients. Of course we have had co-payments but our health insurance has saved our butts and the Avonex has kept the MS progression at a slow rate. I would not be as certain of our future if ObamaCare becomes a reality. Unlike Dr. Cordell - I know things can always get worse.

That's why people from the UK and Canada, who can afford to, come to the US for superior medical care. It may not be cheap, but at least it's not stuck in the 1970s.

1005 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:07pm

re: #995 tradewind

Actually, its use was not at all illiterate.
[Link: www.thefreedictionary.com...]

Except it was quite clear what was intended. Nice "save" though.

Hey, if you want to argue that albusteve was calling me piglike, and say he was right to do so...well, go for it.

1006 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:10pm

re: #960 opnion

It is hardly nitpicking to point out that a large part of the uninsured populatio cosists of the young who out of the health plan & illegals.
Subtract that number & the uninsured population is less daunting to deal with.
Your point about people being ruined due to lack of coverage & catqastrophic illness is well taken. So adress that population through reform , rather than trash the most effective health system in the world.

Go ahead and insure them; you can cover them by roughly doubling the current size of the Medicare program, the government's current showpiece of egalitarian medical efficiency and quality.

1007 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:19pm

re: #976 jaunte

Interesting that "Ignoring doctor's orders" costs $100 billion a year.

It'd be one way to cut costs, just effing listen to the doc. When the doc tells you to stop eating the bacon, stop eating the stuff.

I also found it interesting that a lack of standardization in the insurance claim forms costs $210 billion per year. This could very easily be eliminated with standarization of forms.

1008 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:20pm

re: #1003 EmmmieG

I promise to slow down and proofread my posts.
I promise to slow down and proofread my posts.
I promise to...

1009 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:21pm

re: #989 iceweasel

You asserted I had a visceral dislike of Palin before this event.

That is a lie.

it's archived

1010 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:37pm

re: #1004 Ward Cleaver

That's why people from the UK and Canada, who can afford to, come to the US for superior medical care. It may not be cheap, but at least it's not stuck in the 1970s.

Perhaps they should go to Cuba that has a lower infant mortality rate.

1011 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:44pm

re: #939 Honorary Yooper

Most agreed. That is exactly why this Obama/Democrat health care bill/proposal is such a steaming pile of dung. It includes none of what you said, and everything of what the proposal shouldn't.

Just because it is out there, and even if it had no competing proposals, does not make it "better than doing nothing". What some here forget is that doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing. We don't need more unintended consequences.

Incidentally, and quite aptly, the very first mention in history of the "unintended consequences" concept --- the phrase "above all, do no harm" --- comes from the Hippocratic Oath.

1012 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:45pm

re: #1002 jaunte

The article says: 'talking to doctors, nurses, hospital groups and patient advocacy groups.' Sounds anecdotal.

In other words, pulled out of thin air?

1013 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:35:56pm

re: #955 albusteve

it's the largest operating expense doctors pay for and a multi billion dollar feast for tort lawyers...I have all the stats but refuse to share them

Ok then . . . I am just supposed to take this all as an article of faith. How Obama of you.

1014 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:36:04pm

re: #998 sattv4u2


Every time I get a flat tire, or I get a dent, or need an oil change I do NOT buy a new car
I fix and take care of the problems with the one I have

Sure you do, Cash for Clunkers!

/;-P

1015 LionOfDixon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:36:10pm

One other thing about why this thing stinks to high heaven:
Where the hell does the government get off giving cradle to grave health care to illegal aliens? Why should my tax money go to ensuring that an illegal alien has the same health benefits has me or my family?
The fact that Dems. want illegals to be covered clearly shows that they see this as a tool for aggregating political power...not for anything to do with improving care or decreasing costs.

1016 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:36:31pm

re: #995 tradewind

Actually, its use was not at all illiterate.
[Link: www.thefreedictionary.com...]

was she talkin about me?

1017 JohnH  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:36:56pm

First, it's pretty clear that "death panel", put in quotes by Palin, is rhetoric. Can't we have a little of that? Have you seen the type of debates the early founders had? People need to grow some thicker skin and a pair. Sheesh.

Second, it's almost to have a discussion of any issue this week. Example above: people point out what Ezek Emmanuel actually wrote. Recently. He's an advisor to the OMB. Currently.

No one deals with what he said. Because someone linked it to similar programs in Germany in the 30s that is the only thing addressed.

So, ignore the similarities if you want, but address the substance of what Ezek said. You stand by it? You think it's the way it should go?

Have you seen anyone on the left, BHO, his advisors, anyone, try to distance themselves from what Ezek said. You have not. That is what is driving concern, even fear. This stuff ought to bother everyone.

Oh. Wait. I know. Someone will say that Ezek was just thinking out loud and therefore we should never mind. Just like everyone gave Holden a pass when his extremist views came to light.

SP the extremist? She's just pointing out what these guys are writing. They are the extremists.

1018 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:36:59pm

re: #964 MandyManners

I got this far.

[Link: findarticles.com...]

I'm here.

[Link: findarticles.com...]

1019 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:37:12pm

re: #1013 Creeping Eruption

Ok then . . . I am just supposed to take this all as an article of faith. How Obama of you.

Obusteve

1020 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:37:21pm

re: #1010 kansas

Perhaps they should go to Cuba that has a lower infant mortality rate.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

1021 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:37:42pm

re: #969 reine.de.tout

The hospitals do indeed go out of their way to help. My daughter's pregnancy was not covered, and the hospital's charge for uninsured patients was substantially lower than their rate for regularly insured patients. The bill for it was actually affordable.

Insurance - to a quite interesting degree - helps subsidize charitable care. It almost has to, given the amount of charitable care any hospital ends up providing. So those who are not covered, but can pay receive the benefit of reduced costs and a very helpful payment plan. That is how the hospitals remain able to provide charitable care - aside from substantial donations to their foundations and specific funds.

1022 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:38:02pm

re: #1021 Dianna

Insurance - to a quite interesting degree - helps subsidize charitable care. It almost has to, given the amount of charitable care any hospital ends up providing. So those who are not covered, but can pay receive the benefit of reduced costs and a very helpful payment plan. That is how the hospitals remain able to provide charitable care - aside from substantial donations to their foundations and specific funds.

1023 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:38:10pm

re: #1016 albusteve

was she talkin about me?

HA!

No, albusteve...this is what everyone is claiming you said about ME. And they think they're defending you by claiming that!

Ok, Sorry for the laughter. Done with this topic now.

1024 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:38:20pm

re: #1012 reine.de.tout

Price Waterhouse probably has a methodology, but they were totting up answers 2/3 weighted from doctors and hospital groups, and those might have a greater tendency to suggest the patients were more to blame for bad outcomes.

1025 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:38:24pm

re: #1014 jcm

Sure you do, Cash for Clunkers!

/;-P

"Drink this sodium silicate solution, and have your survivors call me in the morning."

1026 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:38:26pm

re: #1007 Honorary Yooper

It'd be one way to cut costs, just effing listen to the doc. When the doc tells you to stop eating the bacon, stop eating the stuff.

I also found it interesting that a lack of standardization in the insurance claim forms costs $210 billion per year. This could very easily be eliminated with standarization of forms.

My wife is a PT, the doctor she worked with says for his small clinic he has two staffers to deal with insurance and reimbursement. That's two full time salaries, benefits etc... just to deal with the paperwork side of health care.

1027 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:38:51pm

re: #997 kansas

Johnny Cochran's law firm, still operating though he RIPs, (yes, my city is blessed with one of his offices) called a laborer whose car was dinged when my teenager collided with his unregistered clunker at an intersection. No one was hurt, or ticketed... the fault was unclear. Who knows how they sniffed that one out.
Under their tutelage, the guy decided he had a really severe whiplash that just popped up a few weeks later.
Of course our insurance co. settled.
Of course he (the plaintiff) was uninsured.

1028 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:39:08pm

Sorry, about 1022. I was going to say that our hospital works with people finacially. Course the illegals blaze in and out and don't pay, but they work out payment plans for me.

1029 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:39:17pm

re: #969 reine.de.tout

The hospitals do indeed go out of their way to help. My daughter's pregnancy was not covered, and the hospital's charge for uninsured patients was substantially lower than their rate for regularly insured patients. The bill for it was actually affordable.

That is the opposite of what was happening in Massachusetts before the mandatory insurance law.
Hospitals had lower negotiated rates with insurance, so if you did not have insurance your bills were substantially higher.
And they would sic bill collectors on people if they though they could get something for it.
I believe the former is still the case

1030 coldwarrior  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:39:33pm

re: #1013 Creeping Eruption

Ok then . . . I am just supposed to take this all as an article of faith. How Obama of you.

high insurance prices against frivolous law suits combined with defensive medicine causes much waste and inefficiencies in the system.

use the interweb to find out about 'defensive medicine' and malpractice insurance rates and frivolous lawsuits

1031 redstateredneck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:39:34pm

re: #923 Ward Cleaver
How's {June} doing, anyhow?

1032 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:39:45pm

re: #973 EmmmieG

What on earth did Mr. and Mrs. Emmanuel do to produce two such sons?

Forgoing compassion to the helpless is so dark ages.

Their third son is the basis for the character Ari Gold on "Entourage."

1033 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:39:51pm

I cannot find 1996.

[Link: findarticles.com...]

1034 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:39:53pm

re: #922 EmmmieG

Why is anyone trusting data coming out of a country in which you can be shot for sending in a report that makes the head guy unhappy?

You may want to clarify - you are referring to Cuba not the whitehouse.gov snitch line right? /

1035 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:40:25pm

re: #997 kansas

I know. There's a quack lawyer here who gets copies of police reports and has some scam organization call people encouraging them to go to his doctor.

They recently passed a state law here (in TX) that forbids releasing phone numbers along with accident reports.

1036 pbird  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:40:40pm

re: #516 drcordell

Are you high? If the Democrats wanted to pass the bill already they would have. They have a supermajority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. They are TRYING TO SOLICIT INPUT and getting nothing but shit in return.

Horseshit.

1037 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:40:42pm

re: #1033 MandyManners

I cannot find 1996.

[Link: findarticles.com...]

ummm, Mom ,,, I swear,,, I put it back right where it belongs, between 1995 and 1997

1038 redstateredneck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:40:48pm

re: #925 Former Belgian

I never thought anybody could make me hate the very sound of these words: "Social justice". American left-liberals succeeded. Because they have turned the term into another "people's democracy" term: one that actually means the radical opposite of its literally parsed meaning.

Exactly.

1039 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:41:05pm

re: #1035 Ward Cleaver

They recently passed a state law here (in TX) that forbids releasing phone numbers along with accident reports.

It's against the law here too.

1040 yochanan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:41:09pm

re: #1012 reine.de.tout

is that R.O.M.A. or M.S.U. facts?

1041 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:41:19pm

re: #988 Dianna

I'm going to blue my nic. Please forward it to my email; I really have to dance with my numbers.

Well I thought I'd blued my nic!

Darn.

Second try.

1042 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:41:36pm

re: #1013 Creeping Eruption

Ok then . . . I am just supposed to take this all as an article of faith. How Obama of you.

I don't really have all the stats, that would cut into my Miller time looking all that stuff up and it's boring...I was pulling your leg

1043 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:41:58pm

re: #1015 LionOfDixon

One other thing about why this thing stinks to high heaven:
Where the hell does the government get off giving cradle to grave health care to illegal aliens? Why should my tax money go to ensuring that an illegal alien has the same health benefits has me or my family?
The fact that Dems. want illegals to be covered clearly shows that they see this as a tool for aggregating political power...not for anything to do with improving care or decreasing costs.

To some extent at least, as long as they're in the country we're paying for them. Either in unpaid hospital charges that get spread to paying patients or through charities' coverage of their bills.

Providing actual insurance coverage would, however, probably increase what we pay for them as more expenses would be incurred because they have coverage.

1044 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:41:59pm

re: #1005 iceweasel

Not so much that, I grow weary of the grammar police. They're almost as annoying as the posters who feel they must point out every spelling error (Not aiming this remark at you, iceweasel, just commenting) that occurs, even when the poster's meaning is quite clear. It's petty.

1045 Kragar  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:42:02pm

re: #1041 Dianna

Well I thought I'd blued my nic!

Darn.

Second try.

Lucky nic.

/ducking

1046 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:42:08pm

re: #1034 DaddyG

The figures they compare against each other for infant mortality come from a large number of countries that that could qualify for that statement, as well as countries that fudge the numbers by jiggering with the accounting rules.

"Infant mortality" means different things to different countries.

(Of course, the snitch machine would turn the ominous frown of the One upon you, but that wasn't my point.)

1047 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:42:27pm

re: #1031 redstateredneck

How's {June} doing, anyhow?

She's doing well, thanks. Every little thing she feels makes her nervous (bumps under the skin, things like that), though, which makes her look forward to her oncologist followups. Her next one is next month.

1048 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:42:30pm

re: #1025 Ward Cleaver

"Drink this sodium silicate solution, and have your survivors call me in the morning."

How about some colloidal silver? We could all turn blue!

1049 redstateredneck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:42:30pm

re: #936 MandyManners

Emanuel, however, believes that "communitarianism" should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia" (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. '96).


That one got me. My mother had dementia.

1050 filetandrelease  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:42:33pm

re: #955 albusteve

it's the largest operating expense doctors pay for and a multi billion dollar feast for tort lawyers...I have all the stats but refuse to share them

Just look at the advertizing revenue laywers are laying out. Call 1 800 car crash. Or 1 800 Iamhurt. And I just made those up. Tort reform should be the cornerstone of any health care reform bill. With out it, we are just pissing up a rope.

1051 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:42:48pm

A couple of months ago I attended the most informative event on health-care reform I could ever hope for. It was organized by the Manhattan Institute and featured Betsy McCaughey, who coolheadedly presented facts, figures, statistics (all replete with sources) and direct quotes, to support her arguments. I came away profoundly enlightened and I recommend everyone here to check the link below:

[Link: www.manhattan-institute.org...]

There is a series of video clips from C-SPAN covering the entire presentation (you may even spot me in the audience) but for those inclined to a print summary, check out this article. I could not recommend the presentation any more strongly. Little to no rhetoric, but a plethora of information -- just what everyone needs to come to grips with the proposed plan and any reasonable alternatives.

While our existing system is far from optimal, I'd like to present the following facts for consideration by those who screen to the top of their lungs that ANYTHING is better than the status quo (full disclosure, I am perfectly happy with my health insurance):

1) Health care spending is increasing at more moderate rates than in previous decades. Spending increased 10.5 percent in 1970, 13 percent in 1980, and consistently less than 7 percent in each of the last five years, reaching a low of 6.1 percent a year ago (see chart 1 in the article -- last link).

2) Each year since 1960, food and energy together have taken up a declining share of Americans' expenditures, while housing has taken up a steady share. This has enabled Americans to spend an increasing share of their budgets on another necessity, health care. These four necessities together consume the same share of Americans' spending now (55 percent) as they did in 1960 (53 percent). As further evidence, Americans are increasing the share of their spending that goes to recreation.

On June 1, the president's Council of Economic Advisors released a report calling for Americans to cut back on health care. The report pointed to the skimpier health-care consumption in Europe and urged Americans to copy it. But the truth is, Americans can afford better health care than Europeans. Ninety percent of the difference in per capita health-care spending between Europe and the U.S. is due to higher incomes in the U.S. Wealth, not waste, accounts for the difference. What Americans cannot afford is a health-care overhaul based on bad information.

3) Dr. Blumenthal (a key architect of ObamaCare) conceded that "government controls on health care spending are associated with longer waits for elective procedures and reduced availability of new and expensive treatments and devices." But he called it "debatable" whether the timely care Americans get is worth the higher cost.

Ask a cancer patient and you'll get a different answer. Delay lowers your chance of surviving cancer. Women in the U.S. are more likely to have regular mammograms than in other developed countries, according to the Commonwealth Fund. Their breast cancer is detected sooner. They are also treated faster and have higher survival rates, according to the Concord 2008 Five Continent Study. The figures reflect all American women, not just those with insurance.

4) True change, writes Dr. Emanuel (another architect and brother of Rahm Emanuel), must include reassessing the promise doctors make when they enter the profession, the Hippocratic Oath. Amazingly, Dr. Emanuel criticizes the Hippocratic Oath as partly to blame for the "overuse" of medical care: "Medical school education and post graduate education emphasize thoroughness," he wrote. Physicians take the "Hippocratic Oath's admonition to 'use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgment' as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others." (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008.)
...

1052 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:43:05pm

re: #1048 MrSilverDragon

How about some colloidal silver? We could all turn blue!

And life would be one big long performance art piece?

1053 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:43:06pm

re: #1048 MrSilverDragon

How about some colloidal silver? We could all turn blue!

And vote Democrat!

1054 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:43:06pm

re: #989 iceweasel

You asserted I had a visceral dislike of Palin before this event.

That is a lie.

You claimed you disliked Palin as a politician. That is simply not true.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

1055 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:43:09pm

re: #1030 coldwarrior

high insurance prices against frivolous law suits combined with defensive medicine causes much waste and inefficiencies in the system.

use the interweb to find out about 'defensive medicine' and malpractice insurance rates and frivolous lawsuits

Thats what I keep hearing

1056 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:43:37pm

re: #1044 tradewind

Not so much that, I grow weary of the grammar police. They're almost as annoying as the posters who feel they must point out every spelling error (Not aiming this remark at you, iceweasel, just commenting) that occurs, even when the poster's meaning is quite clear. It's petty.

it's for that very reason I intentionally misspell werds

1057 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:43:58pm

re: #1049 redstateredneck

Yet the Dems are perfectly happy to busload entire nursing homes of them into the nearest polling place, with ' helpers'.

1058 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:44:05pm

I googled this from No. 779's link, An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia, and got the below:

[Link: obama.wsj.com...]

1059 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:44:12pm

Wow, somebody went strangely quiet.

1060 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:44:20pm

I re: #991 mjwsatx

Yes - Here's another story.

My wife was diagnosed with MS over 10 years ago. We have BC/BS and it has paid for all of her medical costs AND her very expensive weekly Avonex injections (about $300/week). I read that the NICE council in Great Britain has refused to pay for Avonex injections for MS patients. Of course we have had co-payments but our health insurance has saved our butts and the Avonex has kept the MS progression at a slow rate. I would not be as certain of our future if ObamaCare becomes a reality. Unlike Dr. Cordell - I know things can always get worse.

The British NHS is pretty much the only system that can make even the Belgian one look good at times. It's also the perfect "how not to" example for US healthcare reform.
Just about the only positive thing I can say about it is that they at least allow you to go and pay private if you can afford to (unlike Canada).

Israel's hybrid system, by and large, gave very good bang for the buck, but has become financially unsustainable.

1061 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:44:47pm

re: #1054 Wendya

Hope she has good health insurance. If not, THATS gonna leave a nasty scar

1062 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:44:49pm

re: #1037 sattv4u2

ummm, Mom ,,, I swear,,, I put it back right where it belongs, between 1995 and 1997

ROFLMAO! Thanks for the laughter!

1063 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:44:50pm
1064 John Neverbend  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:44:54pm

re: #848 iceweasel


Today's members of the right-wing culture patrol see ideological subtext everywhere they look.

The comments made by Victor Davis Hanson about 300 don't in any way support the article's conjectures. The point of VDH's analysis (see 300 Fumes) was simply to explain why the movie was financially successful, and he made the observation which I think is clear to anybody who has watched it that the movie is morally unambiguous. The Spartans are the good guys and the Persians are the bad guys (whether or not this was actually true in reality). He makes the equally unremarkable comment that many people who go to movies still like this sort of clear-cut distinction. There's no ideological subtext in this.

1065 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:44:59pm

re: #43 Silvergirl

I don't stand behind Palin's earlier statements. Yet I will not gang on up her and say she was exploiting her child (not that you did). A parent of a special needs child feels these things more deeply knowing their child could stand to lose in a system not looking out for their best interests. She said in the McCain campaign that the special needs parents would have someone to fight for them. I look at her remarks as her attempt to do that, and I give her a lot of slack.

I would give her more slack except that she really can't afford to come off all emo. She is really fighting a credibility problem here. She needs to be the voice of reason even as she is criticizing the Obama administration.

1066 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:45:13pm

re: #1059 Ward Cleaver

Maybe it does have shame after all.

1067 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:45:27pm

re: #1057 tradewind

Yet the Dems are perfectly happy to busload entire nursing homes of them into the nearest polling place, with ' helpers'.

But if 0bamacare passes, they won't have anybody to bus in anymore. Maybe they should re-think the whole idea.

1068 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:45:39pm

re: #1056 albusteve

The exception to that rule is when someone is being so obnoxious or trollish that piling on seems appropriate,,, and fun.
:)

1069 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:45:51pm

re: #1049 redstateredneck

That one got me. My mother had dementia.

Can you help me find that Hastings article on-line? I've posted my progress for the past 10 or so minutes.

1070 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:46:14pm

re: #1044 tradewind

Not so much that, I grow weary of the grammar police. They're almost as annoying as the posters who feel they must point out every spelling error (Not aiming this remark at you, iceweasel, just commenting) that occurs, even when the poster's meaning is quite clear. It's petty.

Of course, if you make a really funny typo, one that gives a whole new meaning to what you meant to say, prepare to be roasted.

1071 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:46:17pm
1072 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:46:19pm

re: #1067 Ward Cleaver

Yes. They may have to look into not rationing themselves out of a seat in Congress here or there.

1073 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:46:27pm

re: #1052 EmmmieG

It isn't already?

re: #1053 Ward Cleaver

Only when they give me a viable candidate.

1074 yochanan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:46:30pm

re: #1067 Ward Cleaver

well in chicagostan the dead still vote.

1075 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:47:16pm

re: #1062 MandyManners

ROFLMAO! Thanks for the laughter!

my pleasure

1076 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:47:18pm

re: #1070 EmmmieG

I do love it when an unintentional typo gives a whole new meaning to a post.

1077 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:47:20pm

re: #1064 John Neverbend

The Spartans are the good guys and the Persians are the bad guys (whether or not this was actually true in reality).

Given that Western Civilization is heir to the Ancient Greeks, I think the Spartans were the good guys. But that's just my bias.

1078 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:47:21pm

re: #1068 tradewind

The exception to that rule is when someone is being so obnoxious or trollish that piling on seems appropriate,,, and fun.
:)

I would never do that
(looks around)

1079 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:47:42pm

re: #1072 tradewind

Yes. They may have to look into not rationing themselves out of a seat in Congress here or there.

They'll have to start busing in 15- to 40-year-olds.

/and lower the voting age to 15

1080 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:48:06pm

re: #1054 Wendya

You claimed you disliked Palin as a politician. That is simply not true.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It's quite clear from the context I mean "as a politician".

Find some quotes, please, from before yesterday to support your hyperbolic and false claim that I had a 'visceral dislike of Palin".

Or give up now. Because you can't. It's utterly false to say I did, and in any case it would in no way invalidate my opinion of her now.

1081 John Neverbend  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:48:38pm

re: #1077 Kenneth

Given that Western Civilization is heir to the Ancient Greeks, I think the Spartans were the good guys. But that's just my bias.

Actually, I preferred the Athenians to the Spartans.

1082 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:48:39pm

re: #1050 filetandrelease

Just look at the advertizing revenue laywers are laying out. Call 1 800 car crash. Or 1 800 Iamhurt. And I just made those up. Tort reform should be the cornerstone of any health care reform bill. With out it, we are just pissing up a rope.

Oh . . I get it now. Layers are the only profession in our capitalist economy who are not entitled to advertise./

1083 yochanan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:48:46pm

re: #1077 Kenneth

well the jews at the time didn't think a lot of helenism.

1084 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:48:57pm

re: #1028 kansas

Sorry, about 1022. I was going to say that our hospital works with people finacially. Course the illegals blaze in and out and don't pay, but they work out payment plans for me.

No matter my opinion about illegal immigration, I would not deny them treatment in an emergency room. Or at a free clinic. First, it's a matter of compassion, and second, it's a matter of public health.

1085 redstateredneck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:49:12pm

re: #1047 Ward Cleaver

She's doing well, thanks. Every little thing she feels makes her nervous (bumps under the skin, things like that), though, which makes her look forward to her oncologist followups. Her next one is next month.


I think that's typical for anyone who has had cancer. Prayers for her continued good health.

1086 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:49:20pm

re: #1048 MrSilverDragon

How about some colloidal silver? We could all turn blue!

Speaking of Mr. "There's nothing wrong with me, I'm perfectly healthy", one emerging bad effect of health care systems that run under political control rather than rational decision making is a proliferation of "alternative" treatments. They get covered because they're demanded - not because they actually work (colloidal silver is poison, folks) and increasingly because they are accepted without expensive trials and because the treatments themselves don't cost the system a whole lot of money. Better to prescribe a handful of bark instead of aspirin from an economic standpoint. And that's a case that might even stand a chance of alleviating some sort of symptom, unlike the bulk of whackadoo treatments peddled.

1087 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:49:37pm

[Link: www.john-goodman-blog.com...]

1088 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:49:42pm

re: #1081 John Neverbend

Actually, I preferred the Athenians to the Spartans.

Yes, but the point of this battle by the Spartans is that it inspired the Athenians to join and fight the Persians.

1089 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:49:44pm

re: #1082 Creeping Eruption

Oh . . I get it now. Layers are the only profession in our capitalist economy who are not entitled to advertise./

yes, prostitution is illegal in most states

1090 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:50:05pm
1091 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:50:08pm

re: #1085 redstateredneck

I think that's typical for anyone who has had cancer. Prayers for her continued good health.

Thanks redstate.

1092 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:50:30pm

re: #1089 albusteve

yes, prostitution is illegal in most states

LOL

1093 redstateredneck  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:51:06pm

re: #1057 tradewind

Yet the Dems are perfectly happy to busload entire nursing homes of them into the nearest polling place, with ' helpers'.

They just help them fill out their absentee ballots.

1094 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:51:41pm

#910 drcordell

Again with the nitpick. The point is not the statistic. The point is that there are millions of people who do not have access to affordable medical care. People who will be forced into bankruptcy if they become seriously ill.

So obviously numbers mean nothing to libs, and if they don't why use them in the first place other than to create a false hysteria. They throw out a fantastically high number and when confronted with it, "we're nitpicking; it's not statistics, but millions of people..."

People without insurance who have medical needs CAN get the help they need. Stop with the hysterics.

1095 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:51:44pm

re: #1087 MandyManners

[Link: www.john-goodman-blog.com...]

As a result, British cancer patients do not have access to drugs that are routinely available in the United States. The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that 25,000 British cancer patients die prematurely every year because of these restrictions.


But I keep seeing posts telling us how great it is in nationalized countries? (Maybe it's just that the dead don't write opinion pieces.)

1096 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:51:44pm

re: #1051 medaura18586

5) Dr. Emanuel also blames high U.S. spending on standards Americans take for granted. "Hospital rooms in the United States offer more privacy…physicians' offices are typically more conveniently located and have parking nearby and more attractive waiting rooms." (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008.)

6) Also slipped into the emergency stimulus legislation was substantial funding for a Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research, a board with a troubling mission. Studying which medication or device works best is obviously a good thing, but comparative effectiveness research is generally code for limiting care based on the patient's age. Economists are familiar with the formula already in use in the U.K., where the cost of a treatment is divided by the number of years (called QALYS or quality-adjusted life years) the patient is likely to benefit. In the U.K., the formula leads to denying treatments for age-related diseases because older patients have a denominator problem -- fewer years to benefit than younger patients with other diseases. In 2006, older patients with macular degeneration, which causes blindness, were told that they had to go totally blind in one eye before they could get an expensive new drug to save the other eye. [Here, Palin. Can't you use this example instead? -- ed.] It took nearly two years to get that government edict reversed.

When comparative effectiveness research appeared in the stimulus bill, Rep. Charles Boustany Jr., a Louisiana heart surgeon, warned to no avail that it would lead to "denying seniors and the disabled lifesaving care." Later, Sen. Jon Kyl introduced an unsuccessful amendment that would have barred the federal government from using the research to deny coverage for certain treatments. Now that comparative effectiveness funding is the law, President Obama recently appointed Dr. Emanuel to the Council, and he is likely to play a leading role because of his extensive writings on rationing care based on a patient's age.

---(by now I'm almost copying verbatim from Betsy's article)---

The misconceptions driving these legislative efforts could be dangerous to your health. One is that prevention will eliminate the cost of treating sickness. Prevention saves lives, but 80 percent of preventive measures do not save money. Most of the people who take cholesterol-lowering medications and other precautionary measures would not get sick anyway. Louise Russell, an economist at Rutgers University, concludes that "hundreds of studies have shown that prevention usually adds to medical costs." (Health Affairs, March-April 2009.) The economics of prevention are so clear that the only people who claim it saves money are politicians.

Nancy-Ann De Parle, director of the White House Office of Health Reform, said on March 23 that "we have to get to a system of keeping people well, rather than treating the sickness." That would make sense if all disease were behavior-related, but many cancers and other diseases are linked to genetics or unknown causes. De Parle's pronouncement echoes how Sir Michael Rawlins, a British health official, explains his nation's low cancer survival rates. The British National Health Service, he said, has to be fair to all patients, "not just the patients with macular degeneration or breast cancer or renal cancer. If we spend a lot of money on a few patients, we have less money to spend on everyone else. We are not trying to be unkind or cruel. We are trying to look after everybody."

This approach is deadly for those with serious illness. In the U.S., about 5 percent (.pdf) of the populace needs 50 percent of treatment dollars. The drumbeat for shifting resources from treatments to prevention should worry any family dealing with M.S., ...
---
Please just read it all. It's excellent.

1097 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:51:50pm
1098 WinterCat  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:51:52pm

Out of here for awhile. Can't spend all day righting the world. I've got to get work stuff done.

1099 yochanan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:51:53pm

re: #1092 Creeping Eruption

well in Nev. the whores might give you value for you money sen reid surely doesn't

1100 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:52:36pm
1101 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:53:07pm
1102 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:53:20pm

re: #1087 MandyManners

[Link: www.john-goodman-blog.com...]

It's not the actor's blog? I'm so disallusioned now...

/

1103 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:53:22pm

re: #1007 Honorary Yooper

It'd be one way to cut costs, just effing listen to the doc. When the doc tells you to stop eating the bacon, stop eating the stuff.

Somewhere in the world is a quack who would prescribe Levitor with Bacon bits.

1104 coldwarrior  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:53:26pm

re: #1093 redstateredneck

They just help them fill out their absentee ballots.

we actually had a polling place inside and old folks home here! its a dem area. no one was watching the poll workers as they coerced the oldsters to vote D. it was sad to watch.

finally someone complained and they moved it back to the volunteer firehouse which is far more suited to being a polling place

1105 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:53:35pm

re: #1063 buzzsawmonkey

Somebody needs to come up with an "Ambulance" cocktail.

With a chaser, of course.

There is an ambulance cocktail.

And here is the "gloom chaser"

1106 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:54:10pm

1097 was not funny...
sorry

1107 kansas  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:54:33pm

re: #1063 buzzsawmonkey

Somebody needs to come up with an "Ambulance" cocktail.

With a chaser, of course.

Of course.
Image: edwards.jpg

1108 yochanan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:55:13pm

re: #1094 ladycatnip

not always

there is the problem of ins com. being able to cherry pick

two things i would like to see and neither of them would cost the tax payers a dime

tort reform
and reform in the ins. company's have them treat it like a utility. make the ins. pool big enough so that the people with existing conditions can be covered at the same price as everybody else.

1109 debutaunt  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:55:18pm

re: #921 Walter L. Newton

And we have time for meaningful debate. I just as well the crazies get it over with, have their say, we call them out and we still have a good month for decent discussion. I say speak out.

Ram it through, read it later. Free insurance for all!

1110 filetandrelease  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:55:57pm

re: #1071 taxfreekiller

think of it as,,, your on patrol out in hostile country

you hear noise and see movement up the valley ahead

ambush's suck

This health care shit is lots of movement in the brush just ahead,
and I, tfk have a keen sense of ambush, sort of a smell in the air.


Upding!

1111 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:55:58pm

re: #1069 MandyManners

Can you help me find that Hastings article on-line? I've posted my progress for the past 10 or so minutes.

Here's a list from Hasting's 1996 volumes: [Link: findarticles.com...]

1112 John Neverbend  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:56:03pm

re: #1088 Kenneth

Yes, but the point of this battle by the Spartans is that it inspired the Athenians to join and fight the Persians.

That came across in the movie, but they were already involved. The remnant of the allied Greek army that stayed behind to face the Persians still contained Thebans and Thespians in addition to Spartans. The rest of the Greek allies, including Athenians, withdrew from Boeotia and Athens, upon hearing of the loss at Thermopylae, but defeated the Persians at Salamis a few months later.

1113 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:56:09pm

re: #1102 MrSilverDragon

It's not the actor's blog? I'm so disallusioned now...

/

But he's got big hair!

1114 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:56:31pm

re: #1021 Dianna

Insurance - to a quite interesting degree - helps subsidize charitable care. It almost has to, given the amount of charitable care any hospital ends up providing. So those who are not covered, but can pay receive the benefit of reduced costs and a very helpful payment plan. That is how the hospitals remain able to provide charitable care - aside from substantial donations to their foundations and specific funds.

An interesting experiment would be to have three people show up at the same clinic for the same procedure: one with BC/BS or MassMutual type "third payer" insurance, another uninsured and clearly poor, a third carrying overseas insurance. THere will be three different rates: the first whatever the insurance company chooses to reimburse the physician for (large insurance companies can play "take it or leave it"), the second very dependent on the degree the person takes pity on you and/or your the willingness to work on a "cash off the books" basis, the third the "recommended retail price". We invariably paid the 3rd while in the USA (our Israeli insurance ponied up), and I never understood how anybody could afford treatment without gold-plated insurance until some medical bloggers/blogging physicians explained things to me.

1115 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:56:54pm

Does anyone know about the Hastings Center?


[Link: www.thehastingscenter.org...]

1116 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:57:00pm

re: #1108 yochanan

Here's the reform I would like to see:

Allow catastrophic coverage in all states. Have insurers offer the catastrophic coverage along with normal COBRA coverage to people being laid off.

The other reform I would like to see is to go back to a system wherein we pay lower premiums, but a percent of our actual costs.

1117 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:57:02pm

re: #1084 Dianna

No matter my opinion about illegal immigration, I would not deny them treatment in an emergency room. Or at a free clinic. First, it's a matter of compassion, and second, it's a matter of public health.

Agreed on that point.

Then we bill their home country!

Back in the early 80's while uninsured I ran up an $8000 health care bill for a sudden illness. I worked out a payment plan and paid the bill.

How many industries write off as much as the health care industry and distribute the cast to other customers?

Right now many people look at as a free ride, if we demanded more financially responsibility form health care consumers at all levels, that is another step in reducing cost.

1118 jaunte  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:57:19pm

re: #1101 taxfreekiller

on this thread, did any one of the liberals ever resopond to the illegals getting on this Democrat proposes health care at our expense

??

any one see such a post

I don't think anyone wants to touch the 'future voters.'

1119 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:57:32pm

re: #1112 John Neverbend

Thanks for the history. I love VDH's work.

1120 Capitalistincharge  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:57:54pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout
Ok, KT, whatever. Must be ok with you that the only violence we have seen so far with the Town Halls is from a Union thugery pressed into service by the Dems. Funny how you aren't even riled by that.

1121 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:58:00pm

re: #1105 reine.de.tout

There is an ambulance cocktail.

And here is the "gloom chaser"

This whole thing makes me want a Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster.

1122 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:58:03pm

re: #1080 iceweasel

It's quite clear from the context I mean "as a politician".

Find some quotes, please, from before yesterday to support your hyperbolic and false claim that I had a 'visceral dislike of Palin".

Or give up now. Because you can't. It's utterly false to say I did, and in any case it would in no way invalidate my opinion of her now.

It is not quite clear. You don't know Palin as a person so it's not possible for you to distinguish between the Palin you don't like and Palin the politician. In any case, you never made that distinction.

1123 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:58:10pm

re: #1109 debutaunt

Ram it through, read it later. Free insurance for all!

I don't agree.

1124 JacksonTn  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:58:13pm

re: #812 drcordell

Right. You have zero complaints with your insurer because up until this point you've been a nice fat cash cow for them. Add up all the claims you've made and contrast that with the amount of premiums you've paid.

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

dr .. you are such a little piss ant jerk ...you have no idea what some people may have gone through with doctors or if they have ever been sick ...

1125 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:58:20pm

re: #1112 John Neverbend

That came across in the movie, but they were already involved. The remnant of the allied Greek army that stayed behind to face the Persians still contained Thebans and Thespians in addition to Spartans. The rest of the Greek allies, including Athenians, withdrew from Boeotia and Athens, upon hearing of the loss at Thermopylae, but defeated the Persians at Salamis a few months later.

There were Thespians in the Greek army? I'll bet there were Homo Sapiens as well!

Shocking!

1126 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:58:26pm

re: #1111 Wendya

Here's a list from Hasting's 1996 volumes: [Link: findarticles.com...]

I'm slogging thought that very link. Emanuel is not the author.

1127 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:58:32pm

my apologies to iceweasle...
however it sounds I am not trying to run you off the blog...

1128 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:59:19pm

re: #812 drcordell

Right. You have zero complaints with your insurer because up until this point you've been a nice fat cash cow for them. Add up all the claims you've made and contrast that with the amount of premiums you've paid.

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

My grandson was born with Down's Syndrome, had an operation the day after he was born to connect his stomach to his small intestine, spent eight weeks in Texas Children's Hospital, then went back last November for open heart surgery to correct a series of defects collectively referred to as The Tetralogy of Fallot.

His parent's insurance has covered to a degree under X thousand dollars, and once the total of treatment went over XX thousand dollars, they have paid everything to do with his major stays. The year he was born it took about two days to reach the out-of-pocket limit.

1129 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:59:25pm

re: #1015 LionOfDixon

One other thing about why this thing stinks to high heaven:
Where the hell does the government get off giving cradle to grave health care to illegal aliens? Why should my tax money go to ensuring that an illegal alien has the same health benefits has me or my family?
The fact that Dems. want illegals to be covered clearly shows that they see this as a tool for aggregating political power...not for anything to do with improving care or decreasing costs.

Sure it does. Within the next year, or two at the most, there will be renewed calls for an amnesty program to the illegal aliens already in the country. And by then, with deficits soaring into the stratosphere and a whopping new health coverage entitlement about to make even those numbers look tiny in comparison, the excuse will be ready-made - adding them to the legal populace will expand the tax base! So what was pitched as "free" health care, and then became a stone around the economy's neck when it's costs became apparent, will now be made "affordable" by taxing the newly naturalized workforce.

1130 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:59:36pm

re: #1126 MandyManners

I'm slogging thought that very link. Emanuel is not the author.

Either the date is wrong, another article quoted him or it doesn't exist.

1131 cygnus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:00:08pm

Not much time on LGF for me - still job searching, so just want to say Hi.

1132 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:00:19pm

Spealking of people who are not 15 and, who aren't worth enough to get a donated organ, I gotta' go pick up The Kid. bbl

1133 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:00:39pm

re: #929 iceweasel

Upding, but as to this?

You'll find I've consistently discussed the proposals in depth here (if not on this thread), and have decried the tactics of the right not merely for how awful they are but because they shut off all debate-- the debate we need to be having on real issues.

Apart from that though, well said.

Well, what I did not like about your approach (and I do agree with what you wrote above) is that the inanity of certain Republican loudmouths or the people directly inspired by them, seems to have blinded you to the merits of the arguments from the other side. You made some statements that raised my eyebrows, such as that ObamaCare would not ration care. To me that's false on its head. And you updinged some comments that made absolutely no sense on the contents and were partisan (Democrat) in tone, as well as alarmist (let's do ANYTHING; at least Democrats want to do SOMETHING).

Political maturity means being able to constructively criticize all sides, often simultaneously. But you have been treated much worse than you deserve in these threads, I understand, and trust me, I've been on the receiving end myself, so I can spot ill treatment when I see it. I'm not down with it.

1134 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:00:44pm

re: #1130 Wendya

Either the date is wrong, another article quoted him or it doesn't exist.

I'm pretty sure it's the second.

1135 John Neverbend  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:00:52pm

re: #1119 Kenneth

Thanks for the history. I love VDH's work.

So do I. If you haven't seen his interview with Harry Kreisler at UC Berkeley in the "Conversations with History" series, it's on Youtube and is worth watching.

1136 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:00:59pm

re: #1131 cygnus

Not much time on LGF for me - still job searching, so just want to say Hi.

Hang in there, friend.

1137 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:01:06pm

re: #1044 tradewind

Not so much that, I grow weary of the grammar police. They're almost as annoying as the posters who feel they must point out every spelling error (Not aiming this remark at you, iceweasel, just commenting) that occurs, even when the poster's meaning is quite clear. It's petty.

Your paranthetical remarks contain an incomplete sentence. /

1138 albusteve  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:01:09pm

re: #1129 SixDegrees

Sure it does. Within the next year, or two at the most, there will be renewed calls for an amnesty program to the illegal aliens already in the country. And by then, with deficits soaring into the stratosphere and a whopping new health coverage entitlement about to make even those numbers look tiny in comparison, the excuse will be ready-made - adding them to the legal populace will expand the tax base! So what was pitched as "free" health care, and then became a stone around the economy's neck when it's costs became apparent, will now be made "affordable" by taxing the newly naturalized workforce.

that's exactly where Soto may come in to play...they have a plan

1139 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:01:13pm

re: #1132 MandyManners

Spealking of people who are not 15 and, who aren't worth enough to get a donated organ, I gotta' go pick up The Kid. bbl

You'd give him both kidneys if he needed them, and you know it.

*Mother to mother*

1140 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:01:31pm

re: #1127 albusteve

my apologies to iceweasle...
however it sounds I am not trying to run you off the blog...

don't start any rail parties it takes a while to get the tar warm enough to stick to the feathers

/

1141 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:01:45pm

re: #1135 John Neverbend

I haven't but I will make a point of it. Thanks!

1142 John Neverbend  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:02:08pm

re: #1125 EmmmieG

There were Thespians in the Greek army? I'll bet there were Homo Sapiens as well!

Shocking!

I realized the oddity, as I wrote it. I envisaged a troupe of actors putting on a short play while their comrades were either impaling the Persians or being impaled.

1143 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:02:09pm

re: #1082 Creeping Eruption

Oh . . I get it now. Layers are the only profession in our capitalist economy who are not entitled to advertise./

"Contingency lawsuits" (lawyers taking cases on 'no win, no pay' basis and being paid 30-40% of the settlement if they win) are a phenomenon that (I think) is unique to the USA (any overseas lizard who knows otherwise, please correct me).

1144 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:02:30pm

re: #1114 Former Belgian

I collapsed on the street, back in August of 1993, and spent a couple days in the hospital getting fed and hydrated. I was temping at the time (explaining how I reached a point of malnutrition that led to my embarrassing public collapse), and had no insurance.

I was very, very well treated. I paid over the next eight months, starting at a very low rate, which I increased when I got a permanent job.

The system has problems, but honestly, it does work.

Anyone who claims that people don't get treated, etc., etc., has not been paying attention.

1145 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:03:13pm

re: #1136 Ward Cleaver

Hang in there, friend.

How are your beatdown skills? Have you considered a career with the SEIU Rally Security Squad?

/

1146 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:04:03pm

This might be it.

[Link: www.thehastingscenter.org...]

I searched for Emanuel 1996 in the search engine. This is one result that seems promising.

Gotta' go.

1147 Racer X  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:04:09pm

Help me understand something.

I have seen several Lizards linking to Huffpo or KOS lately to give examples of those crazy Right-Wing conservatives. Huffpo has one nugget of truth in a pile of bullshit and they are held up as an accurate reliable source to mock the right. Same with KOS.

Rush or Hannity or whoever may have one nugget of bullshit in a pile of truth, yet they are dismissed out of hand.

Why the double standard?

1148 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:04:11pm

re: #883 jaunte

Starting with tort reform would be a good way for progressives to show that they really were interested in positive change in health care.

If they were to show that they were interested in controlling bullshit costs, then I would probably be more inclined to listen to their proposals for controlling legitimate costs.

1149 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:04:22pm

re: #1143 Former Belgian

"Contingency lawsuits" (lawyers taking cases on 'no win, no pay' basis and being paid 30-40% of the settlement if they win) are a phenomenon that (I think) is unique to the USA (any overseas lizard who knows otherwise, please correct me).


Not sure if ither countries do it or not, but you have a very good point. A lawyer invest x amount of dollars with a questionable outcome. He or she wins, the payout is large. They lose, and are shit out if luck. None of this goes to my initial question, of the need for tort reform.

1150 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:04:27pm

re: #1138 albusteve

that's exactly where Soto may come in to play...they have a plan

I doubt the Supremes will be involved. They weren't during Reagan's amnesty program. This will clearly be a legislative initiative, and won't require input from the judicial branch as long as whoever writes up the bill doesn't futz the language in some way.

1151 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:05:11pm

re: #812 drcordell

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

That, by the way, is the new health care plan in a nutshell.

1152 cygnus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:05:46pm

re: #1136 Ward Cleaver

Hang in there, friend.

Thanks. Hey, is it just me, or does it seem very slow on LGF? The hamsters need some lunch, I think.

1153 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:05:49pm

Is it just me or has LGF 'speeded up' since the 'new comment' button upgrade?

1154 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:06:23pm

I hear sirens approaching. I may have to go.

1155 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:06:45pm

re: #1152 cygnus

Thanks. Hey, is it just me, or does it seem very slow on LGF? The hamsters need some lunch, I think.

re: #1153 Jimmah

Is it just me or has LGF 'speeded up' since the 'new comment' button upgrade?

Point. Counterpoint.

1156 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:06:55pm

re: #1154 haakondahl

I hear sirens approaching. I may have to go.

You shouldn't blog while driving anyway...

1157 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:06:56pm

re: #1128 OldLineTexan

BTW, he is doing quite well and once again gaining weight and muscle tone.

He sees specialists on a regular basis, and still sports a very odd ridge where his chest was wired together. All in all, he is a joy to hang out with, although much, much different from our children (all healthy and BORN normal, anyway ;)).

His father works and works, which is something I approve of heartily.

1158 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:07:59pm

Way off-topic dumbass alert:

I'm making pizza dough in my bread machine as I do about once per week. I just accidentally used a tablespoon of sugar instead a teaspoon. For the bakers that may be here, is there an easy fix for this that doesn't involve poring it all out and starting over? Before anyone asks, no, I cannot triple the recipe to compensate.

Thanks in advance for any quick help. Googling hasn't helped much.

1159 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:08:17pm

re: #1153 Jimmah

Is it just me or has LGF 'speeded up' since the 'new comment' button upgrade?

I don't know, but that is one kewl upgrade.

And it almost worked ... when I jumped back in at one point 200+ posts behind, I almost refrained from posting.

Almost, that is.

/

1160 Capitalistincharge  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:08:57pm

re: #1080 iceweasel
I read a blog yesterday where you were seething with anger over Palin. I read your posts and thought to myself "Damn...that level of anger is over the top". You never specified that you despised, hated, detested Palin the Polictician. So deny away, your are starting to sound like the rest of the liberals.

1161 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:09:03pm

re: #1153 Jimmah

Is it just me or has LGF 'speeded up' since the 'new comment' button upgrade?

In the beta version, everytime we click the button we get a little pellet.

Problem is, the pellets are crack. :(

///

1162 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:09:03pm

re: #1158 theuglydougling

use it anyway. the dough will be sweeter than usual... or let it stand longer for fermentation

1163 Racer X  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:09:19pm

re: #1158 theuglydougling

Way off-topic dumbass alert:

I'm making pizza dough in my bread machine as I do about once per week. I just accidentally used a tablespoon of sugar instead a teaspoon. For the bakers that may be here, is there an easy fix for this that doesn't involve poring it all out and starting over? Before anyone asks, no, I cannot triple the recipe to compensate.

Thanks in advance for any quick help. Googling hasn't helped much.

You ever have Numero Uno pizza? The dough is real sweet. You may like it.

1164 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:09:33pm

re: #1158 theuglydougling

Way off-topic dumbass alert:

I'm making pizza dough in my bread machine as I do about once per week. I just accidentally used a tablespoon of sugar instead a teaspoon. For the bakers that may be here, is there an easy fix for this that doesn't involve poring it all out and starting over? Before anyone asks, no, I cannot triple the recipe to compensate.

Thanks in advance for any quick help. Googling hasn't helped much.

Sorry, I think you're out of luck on this batch of dough.

You could put it aside as a torte crust, or something.

1165 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:09:36pm

re: #1158 theuglydougling

Way off-topic dumbass alert:

I'm making pizza dough in my bread machine as I do about once per week. I just accidentally used a tablespoon of sugar instead a teaspoon. For the bakers that may be here, is there an easy fix for this that doesn't involve poring it all out and starting over? Before anyone asks, no, I cannot triple the recipe to compensate.

Thanks in advance for any quick help. Googling hasn't helped much.

Cur way back on your yeast. The sugar is used to feed it. Also, lower the temperature if possible . I have no experience with bread machines, but that should help a little bit at least. Also, don't let it proof as long. It will shoot up like a rocket. Is for taste . . . ?

1166 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:10:34pm

re: #812 drcordell

Right. You have zero complaints with your insurer because up until this point you've been a nice fat cash cow for them. Add up all the claims you've made and contrast that with the amount of premiums you've paid.

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

Does two days spent in an ICU in a diabetic coma, followed by a week in the CCU for stabilization, followed by half a week in a regular room for various followups count? After entering by way of ambulance, through the emergency room? Been there, done that, my insurer did precisely what I expected them to, I picked up the remainder and paid it over the next few months.

1167 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:11:38pm

re: #1160 Capitalistincharge

I read a blog yesterday where you were seething with anger over Palin. I read your posts and thought to myself "Damn...that level of anger is over the top". You never specified that you despised, hated, detested Palin the Polictician. So deny away, your are starting to sound like the rest of the liberals.

i ragged on Palin yesterday, for her Facebook statement and her total ignorance of the realities facing other families with special needs kids-- because she claimed that would be her special area of interest and expertise and advocacy.

Demonstrably false. No respect for her on any level now, as a result.

1168 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:11:40pm

re: #1158 theuglydougling

Way off-topic dumbass alert:

I'm making pizza dough in my bread machine as I do about once per week. I just accidentally used a tablespoon of sugar instead a teaspoon. For the bakers that may be here, is there an easy fix for this that doesn't involve poring it all out and starting over? Before anyone asks, no, I cannot triple the recipe to compensate.

Thanks in advance for any quick help. Googling hasn't helped much.

Not that this will help, but don't kick yourself.

I went out last night armed with a razor blade to scrape off my old license sticker and install the nice new one. In a fit of stupidity, I scraped off the INSPECTION sticker (it was due in two months anyway) instead!

1169 Rexatosis  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:11:56pm

A few years ago as an adjunct professor (and waiting tables p/t) I had no "health insurance," thus I was one of the many "uninsured." I did however have "accident insurance": break a leg and I'm covered, get cancer and I am screwed. Got that policy because there is almost no cancer in my family (heart and lung issues later in life but not cancer) but I am very active and a bit of a clutz so busting a bone was definitely a possibility. Paid for physicals, dental out of pocket. Saved a ton of money v. "health insurance" while I building my career in my late 20's and early 30's and still had more than enough access to "health care." I am far from alone in this regard. Some friends (same age bracket) I know who did not have coverage through work choose major medical policies with sizable deductables and paid for basic care out of pocket. Access is available but it does require people to have a clue what they are doing (do you want major medical or accident? How high a deductable do you need?--which means you need to put $ away just in case, etc.)

Just saying...

1170 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:12:03pm

re: #1134 MandyManners

I'm pretty sure it's the second.

Mandy, I think it's the one called "Is Justice Enough". Emanuel is a co-author. Sloggin through the pages now.

1171 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:12:26pm

re: #1164 Dianna

Sorry, I think you're out of luck on this batch of dough.

You could put it aside as a torte crust, or something.

How about a bombe?

/

1172 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:13:31pm

re: #1137 DaddyG

Your paranthetical remarks contain an incomplete sentence. /

Gee whiz Yochanon - I was just teasing. If you noticed grammar isn't my strong point either. ;-D

1173 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:13:33pm

re: #1164 Dianna

Sorry, I think you're out of luck on this batch of dough.

You could put it aside as a torte crust, or something.

And then serve it as torte reformè.

1174 opnion  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:13:46pm

re: #1006 SixDegrees

Go ahead and insure them; you can cover them by roughly doubling the current size of the Medicare program, the government's current showpiece of egalitarian medical efficiency and quality.

You could do it either through medicare or medicaid & not destoy the system. This is about power.

1175 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:13:49pm

re: #1152 cygnus

Thanks. Hey, is it just me, or does it seem very slow on LGF? The hamsters need some lunch, I think.

LOTS of people on today.

1176 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:13:49pm

No, not taste, just what the recipe calls for...I assume to feed the yeast. Right now I probably have no choice but to let it ride in the interest of science - I may learn something. I have leftovers on standby just in case. This wouldn't be the first time my kids distracted me while measuring ingredients. (lol)

Thanks for the replies!

1177 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:14:47pm

re: #1154 haakondahl

I hear sirens approaching. I may have to go.

They're coming to take you away, haha!

/old song

1178 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:15:09pm

re: #1161 iceweasel

In the beta version, everytime we click the button we get a little pellet.

Problem is, the pellets are crack. :(

///

LOL good morning to you :)

1179 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:15:11pm

re: #1172 DaddyG

Gee whiz Yochanon - I was just teasing. If you noticed grammar isn't my strong point either. ;-D

GIFW!

Grammar Is For Wimps!

1180 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:15:27pm

re: #1177 Ward Cleaver

They're coming to take you away, haha!

/old song

to the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time

1181 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:15:55pm

re: #1177 Ward Cleaver

They're coming to take you away, haha!

/old song

Yes, I'm twiddling my fingers and toes.

1182 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:15:57pm

re: #1144 Dianna

[...] Anyone who claims that people don't get treated, etc., etc., has not been paying attention.

People go untreated for a multitude of reasons, one of the chief being that they have insurance but the non-medical flacks whose job it is to deny care can pretty much arbitrarily decide that something is a "pre-existing condition" and exclude treatment for it.

Talking with my GP today, he mentioned a patient of his who has Blue Cross/Blue Shield (once a gold standard, now sadly just a name that practically any fly-by-night shoddy for-profit insurer can rent to make people feel covered) and needs his gall bladder removed. Because this patient went to the hospital for gas or an upset stomach or whatever a couple of years ago, his inflamed gall bladder is today a "pre-existing condition" and the operation is denied.

He also mentioned one of the giant insurers whose name I forget right now which sits on any referral he writes for any condition for at least four days and then makes him talk to an idiot with no medical training whose sole job is to deny, deny, deny care as much as possible so the CEO can get a bigger yearly bonus.

Pfui.

Anyone who thinks people don't either (1) go without care or (2) go bankrupt trying to pay out of pocket for care that was denied even though they have so-called health insurance really hasn't been paying attention.

1183 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:16:00pm

#1167 iceweasel

What makes you an expert on special needs advocacy? I'd certainly give her the benefit of the doubt in this area. Sounds like you're just jumping at any excuse to hate her. Hatred is really, really bad for the human body - like drinking poison every day.

1184 Cygnus  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:16:00pm

re: #1173 haakondahl

And then serve it as torte reformè.

Half-baked, like a lot of our legal system.

1185 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:16:31pm

re: #1178 Jimmah

LOL good morning to you :)

'morning, jimmah-cakes. :) How are you?

1186 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:16:40pm

re: #1173 haakondahl

Or Sham Torte.

1187 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:16:57pm

re: #1158 theuglydougling

Way off-topic dumbass alert:

I'm making pizza dough in my bread machine as I do about once per week. I just accidentally used a tablespoon of sugar instead a teaspoon. For the bakers that may be here, is there an easy fix for this that doesn't involve poring it all out and starting over? Before anyone asks, no, I cannot triple the recipe to compensate.

Thanks in advance for any quick help. Googling hasn't helped much.

I would imagine adding more yeast.

1188 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:18:00pm

re: #1187 Wendya

I would imagine adding more yeast.

Only if you want his/her bread maker to explode.

1189 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:18:07pm

re: #1158 theuglydougling

Way off-topic dumbass alert:

I'm making pizza dough in my bread machine as I do about once per week. I just accidentally used a tablespoon of sugar instead a teaspoon. For the bakers that may be here, is there an easy fix for this that doesn't involve poring it all out and starting over? Before anyone asks, no, I cannot triple the recipe to compensate.

Thanks in advance for any quick help. Googling hasn't helped much.

On Holiday seasons my wife set up a batch of home made candy... I sat there and stirred and stirred, it got up to temperature but wasn't setting up right, I tasted a bit...

She'd used salt instead of sugar, and I'd spent more than an hour stirring!

1190 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:18:22pm

re: #1171 OldLineTexan

How about a bombe?

/

I thought that the round thingy with a thick, sweet, breadish crust was spelt with an "e"?

1191 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:18:30pm

Wow, LGF is really slowing down for me. Can't seem to scroll up and down.

Mandy, here it is on page 8:[Link: findarticles.com...]

1192 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:18:54pm

Another aspect of this bill that I, as a libertarian, find extremely troubling, is the obvious implication for societal toleration to risk taking behavior:

If health-care resources were socialized (through a public option or other means of collectivization -- the details of ObamaCare are not very clear byt the clearly envision such spreading of costs across taxpayers) how does that affect popular attitudes toward extreme sports, smoking, drug use, abortion, speeding laws, car safety, anal-sex practices, etc.?

I'm extremely socially liberal and strongly do favor abortion rights, legalization of marijuana (as well as all other hard drugs), a right to smoke, the freedom to pursue homosexual acts in accordance to one's conscience, etc. I also am a fan of New Hampshire live-free-or-die-style lack of compulsion in wearing seat belts or helmets on the road. Not to mention extreme sports (I'm not personally a fan of, but I support anyone's right to engage in them).

Once I am forced to pay for other people's health care though, their lifestyle choices affect me too: all of a sudden, I have an incentive to regulate abortion availability (why should I bear part of the cost if some woman, a stranger to me, did not successfully practice preventative birth-control?), would be immensely benefited by a ban on smoking and all other recreational drugs, and why should people go bungee jumping for fun if my paycheck is involved in paying for any health service related to this activity (if it goes wrong)?

And how about sports in school? Seatbelts, helmets, since I am to chip in for other people's health care in case of accidents? The spread of AIDS through anal sex?

Suddenly, our lives are not morally wholly our own, and other people become responsible for our decisions (or have to bear responsibility whether they want to or not) so how can we justify our much-cherished lifestyle freedoms? Nationalized health-care creates artificial negative externalities of far-reaching consequences, which must be carefully considered.

1193 kywrite  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:19:40pm

re: #346 drcordell

There are instructional handouts distributed by teabaggers

AFAIC, as soon as someone uses that term from now on, that's an automatic downding. I don't care what else they say, it's nasty and derogatory and I'm sick of it. I don't disrespect anyone by calling them Nazis or f***s or c***s, and I think it's fair to expect the same level of maturity from anyone else.

(FWIW, I also don't call myself the mob or anything else. Words do have impact, whether you choose them or they are foisted upon you.)

1194 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:20:38pm

re: #1183 ladycatnip

#1167 iceweasel

What makes you an expert on special needs advocacy? I'd certainly give her the benefit of the doubt in this area. Sounds like you're just jumping at any excuse to hate her. Hatred is really, really bad for the human body - like drinking poison every day.

Palin claimed a 'death panel" would judge little Trig.

In reality, Ohio right now allows insurance companies to deny coverage to Downs Syndrome kids. They call it a 'pre-existing condition'.

If Palin cared about those kids and those families, she'd be putting up thoughtful posts on her facebook page or somewhere about the current situation and what should be done.

Instead she's spreading lies about a death panel.

1195 JohnH  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:21:40pm

re: #1126 MandyManners

Mandy: try this link: caution: PDF

[Link: www.ncpa.org...]

1196 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:23:29pm

re: #1185 iceweasel

'morning, jimmah-cakes. :) How are you?

I'm fine thanks. And you?

I see you are your usual indomitable* self today :)

Interesting story from Dawkins site - Education, Demski style -
[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

If you follow the links, you will see that it is full of gems: we won’t spoil them for you by flagging them all up, but – just to whet your appetite – you will notice that, at both undergrad and masters level, there are courses for which 20% of the final marks come from having made 10 posts defending ID on ‘hostile’ websites! This could explain a lot.

*(you can't domit her, folks - give it up)

1197 Dianna  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:23:35pm

re: #1182 Cato the Elder

Oh, spare me.

I've been poorer than a church mouse. I've been insured, I've been uninsured. I've been inadequately insured. I've been smart, and I've been stupid.

In no case - no matter what - was I driven to bankruptcy or anything like it. The only person I know who declared bankruptcy over medical bills was one who belligerently declared his refusal to "enrich" some rich CEO.

1198 mjwsatx  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:23:57pm

re: #1192 medaura18586

Don't worry. When Big US HeathCare costs begin to drag our economy down faster then even us conservatives expect it to, they'll begin to regulate a lot of this stuff. Expect to pay $30 for a pack of cigarettes and if you're caught driving your chopper without a helmet you may very well either end up in jail or be banned from receiving any health care. The Dems will find a way to regulate all kinds of things.

1199 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:25:48pm

re: #812 drcordell

Right. You have zero complaints with your insurer because up until this point you've been a nice fat cash cow for them. Add up all the claims you've made and contrast that with the amount of premiums you've paid.

Wait until you have a catastrophic illness and get back to me.

I had a ruptured appendix and collapsed on the floor as soon as I arrived in the emergency room. Fever was 106 with sever peritonitis. Surgery started within an hour. Overnighted at that hospital. Was relocated to another hospital (in my network plan) later the next day. 1 week stay followed by 6 weeks bedrest with regular visits from a home health nurse.

Was inconvenienced by the hospital transfer (which I've since addressed by scrutinizing and modifying my network selection). Everything else according to plan. IIRC (this was 7-8 years ago) the total billed from all angles was 30-40K.

No issues to report.

I want to keep this plan, too.

1200 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:26:05pm

re: #1198 mjwsatx

My feeling is that they'll try, and there will definitely be rationale for them to. Then, perhaps, people will wake up to just how insidious the consequences of this scheme are. Limiting choice and freedom can almost never be done in a vacuum: it starts a whole chain reaction.

1201 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:27:52pm
1202 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:27:57pm

re: #1197 Dianna

Oh, spare me.

I've been poorer than a church mouse. I've been insured, I've been uninsured. I've been inadequately insured. I've been smart, and I've been stupid.

In no case - no matter what - was I driven to bankruptcy or anything like it. The only person I know who declared bankruptcy over medical bills was one who belligerently declared his refusal to "enrich" some rich CEO.

FWIW: First link when I googled "medical bills cause bankruptcy":
Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

1203 Capitalistincharge  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:28:26pm

re: #1194 iceweasel
Those weren't lies, and her post was about the Healthcare bill as proposed. If you want her take on what should be done why don't you ask her? Seems to me that would be a different subject then what she was talking about. Your hatered is making you so irrational.

1204 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:28:51pm

re: #1196 Jimmah

What's domit, eh, Precious, what's domit?

/

1205 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:29:45pm

re: #1190 Dianna

I thought that the round thingy with a thick, sweet, breadish crust was spelt with an "e"?

That was the joke!

/insert Foghorn Leghorn waffling

1206 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:31:10pm

re: #1194 iceweasel

Instead she's spreading lies about a death panel.

Just what America needs right now - more hysteria.

When Obama was elected, I felt relieved that we could at least look forward to a more sane opposition than we had for the last 8 years. I honestly thought we might have a relative break from the screaming and the tazer martyrs and the paranoia that seemed to characterize a significant portion of the left.

How wrong I was on that. Different political wing, same shit - if anything, worse this time round.

1207 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:31:13pm

re: #1196 Jimmah

Oh, fantastic-- we'll have to have a talk about Dembski, yes! Link looks great!

BTW, P-Zed Myers and some atheists got thrown out of the Creation Museum yesterday...I'll find a link.

1208 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:33:23pm

re: #1204 OldLineTexan

What's domit, eh, Precious, what's domit?

/

No domit for you/

1209 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:34:32pm

re: #1193 kywrite

AFAIC, as soon as someone uses that term [teabaggers] from now on, that's an automatic downding.

Does that include discussions about the little old ladies who work for Lipton? /

1210 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:35:46pm

re: #491 voirdire

If it weren't for conservatives, we'd be having a national debate on healthcare.

Are you insane? If it weren't for conservatives, the undebated, unread bill would be law and we would all be sucking hard on the consequences. Right now, a wrench in the spokes is the right attitude, because slowing or stopping this madness is good and right. There is no requirement in the constitution to pass legislation. Stopping bad legislation is as valid as passing good legislation.

1211 Cato  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:36:40pm
Youtube Video
1212 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:38:06pm

re: #1206 Jimmah

Just what America needs right now - more hysteria.

When Obama was elected, I felt relieved that we could at least look forward to a more sane opposition than we had for the last 8 years. I honestly thought we might have a relative break from the screaming and the tazer martyrs and the paranoia that seemed to characterize a significant portion of the left.

How wrong I was on that. Different political wing, same shit - if anything, worse this time round.

Yes. It's really shocking to me that the right seemingly needed only a couple of months before become shrieking lunatics.

I can't believe it. I wonder sometimes what happened.

In the political carnival that is America, the right has apparently decided that they hates the Big Tent, precious, and they've chosen to set up a sideshow on the midway instead, staffed by hucksters and carnies and featuring only a freak tent.
Mystifying.

1213 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:38:11pm

re: #1210 haakondahl

Are you insane? If it weren't for conservatives, the undebated, unread bill would be law and we would all be sucking hard on the consequences. Right now, a wrench in the spokes is the right attitude, because slowing or stopping this madness is good and right. There is no requirement in the constitution to pass legislation. Stopping bad legislation is as valid as passing good legislation.

Read on. He/she forgot the sarc tag and paid for it dearly.

1214 tradewind  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:38:36pm

Futureshock under Obamacare: Coming soon to a US hospital?
Get In Their Faces.
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

1215 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:39:28pm

re: #1213 DaddyG

Read on. He/she forgot the sarc tag and paid for it dearly.

Bwahahaaa!

1216 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:39:44pm

re: #1197 Dianna

Oh, spare me.

I've been poorer than a church mouse. I've been insured, I've been uninsured. I've been inadequately insured. I've been smart, and I've been stupid.

In no case - no matter what - was I driven to bankruptcy or anything like it. The only person I know who declared bankruptcy over medical bills was one who belligerently declared his refusal to "enrich" some rich CEO.

Yes, and because the one person you know personally who's gone into bankruptcy over medical bills was an ass, therefore all of them are like that.

Spare me.

I once respected your logic.

You might have addressed the issue of list-chopping by means of spurious "pre-existing condition" claims and the interference in doctors' judgments by telephone monkeys who wouldn't know an ulna from an ulcer, but instead you give me your personal experience and expect me to somehow suddenly ignore the statistics that show how broken and arbitrary the system is that decides who gets an infected gall bladder removed and who doesn't.

I'm very glad things have worked out for you so far, and I hope you keep your insurance, and that it's there for you when push comes to shove, and that you don't have to find out how thin a thread we all hang from.

1217 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:40:10pm

re: #1201 lincolntf

Plank in your own eye, son.

1218 jcm  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:41:04pm

re: #1207 iceweasel

Oh, fantastic-- we'll have to have a talk about Dembski, yes! Link looks great!

BTW, P-Zed Myers and some atheists got thrown out of the Creation Museum yesterday...I'll find a link.

They were being a mob!

///

1219 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:42:38pm

re: #1218 jcm

They were being a mob!

///

Yeah, standing around all silently hating on beliefs and all.

///
(kidding)

1220 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:44:40pm

re: #1201 lincolntf

Your comment is pretty hateful.

Just sayin'.

1221 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:44:56pm

#1194 iceweasel

Palin spreading lies? Have YOU read this bill?

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - A government committe will decide what treatments/benefits you get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - rationing.

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will restrict enrollment of Special needs people.

If you or a loved one were denied enrollment or treatment which resulted in the termination of life, I think you'd have no problem calling it a "death panel." Personally, I don't think what Palin said was that off base considering page 30 Section 123 and page 354 Section 1177. This gives way too much power to our government.

1222 lincolntf  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:45:21pm

re: #1212 iceweasel

A Carnival?
If you haven't noticed, it was the Left who elevated their "Lefty-est" Senator to the Presidency. This President has tripled the deficit, mocked the retarded, rambled inanely about racial injustice, tried to assume control of 1/7th of the economy and chilled out with Dictators. And those are the things we KNOW about.
The biggest laugh of the entire Obama Presidency is the hyper-defensiveness of his pissant little helpers.

1223 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:45:42pm

re: #1207 iceweasel

Oh, fantastic-- we'll have to have a talk about Dembski, yes! Link looks great!

BTW, P-Zed Myers and some atheists got thrown out of the Creation Museum yesterday...I'll find a link.

They took off to the east, then?

1224 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:46:15pm

re: #1196 Jimmah

*(you can't domit her, folks - give it up)

As I've stated repeatedly before, I'm an out-and-out evolutionist but I want nothing to do with Richard Dawkins. To me, this antisemite and fanatic religion-hater is as radioactive as Pat Buchanan or L. Ron Paul.

And yes, even broken clocks can be right twice a day.

1225 Czarny_Smok  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:46:20pm

re: #839 MandyManners

Well, it was a scholarly piece of writing. Scholars like big words.

So do socialists!

1226 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:47:52pm

re: #1224 Former Belgian

As I've stated repeatedly before, I'm an out-and-out evolutionist but I want nothing to do with Richard Dawkins. To me, this antisemite and fanatic religion-hater is as radioactive as Pat Buchanan or L. Ron Paul.

And yes, even broken clocks can be right twice a day.

OK, will you tell me what the apparent verb "domit" means?

1227 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:49:00pm

re: #1221 ladycatnip

dear lady catnip,

yes, I have read the bill.

I know you have not, because if you had you probably would not be quoting from a dreck-filled email that was debunked days ago.

But if you'd like to base your opinions on an email that originated from the twitter account of some lone lunatic, rather the bill itself, go for it.

1228 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:49:19pm

re: #1193 kywrite

AFAIC, as soon as someone uses that term from now on, that's an automatic downding.

Actually, whenever I hear that term, I always think of an activity between 0bama and the lame-stream media...

1229 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:51:01pm

re: #1224 Former Belgian

As I've stated repeatedly before, I'm an out-and-out evolutionist but I want nothing to do with Richard Dawkins. To me, this antisemite and fanatic religion-hater is as radioactive as Pat Buchanan or L. Ron Paul.

And yes, even broken clocks can be right twice a day.

Some of his views may be debatable but he's not a fanatic. He just doesn't believe in god, and isn't afraid to write about the harm that religion can do, as he sees it. As for 'anti-semite' that is utterly ludicrous.

1230 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:55:15pm

re: #1222 lincolntf

A Carnival?
If you haven't noticed, it was the Left who elevated their "Lefty-est" Senator to the Presidency. This President has tripled the deficit, mocked the retarded, rambled inanely about racial injustice, tried to assume control of 1/7th of the economy and chilled out with Dictators. And those are the things we KNOW about.
The biggest laugh of the entire Obama Presidency is the hyper-defensiveness of his pissant little helpers.

Looks like foam's back on the menu, boys!

1231 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:56:29pm

re: #1223 haakondahl

They took off to the east, then?

They stood around being all scientific and all.

We were asked to sign a document before we entered that required us to be "respectful" of their facilities, which apparently meant more than simply appropriately regarding their building as private property. One of our atheists was in an entirely friendly conversation about evolution with a creationist visitor, when one of the guards came up and asked them to stop, saying that we had signed an agreement not to even discuss anything in the building where others could hear. (To his credit, the creationist said that he welcomed the discussion the guards wanted to silence, and they continued outside.)

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Jimmah, check this out too...cool stuff!

1232 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 1:58:19pm

re: #1230 Jimmah

Looks like foam's back on the menu, boys!

HA!

Yeah... The froth is strong. :)

Youtube Video

(can't stop playing this...)

1233 Former Belgian  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:04:26pm

re: #1229 Jimmah

Some of his views may be debatable but he's not a fanatic. He just doesn't believe in god, and isn't afraid to write about the harm that religion can do, as he sees it. As for 'anti-semite' that is utterly ludicrous.

Found in 10 seconds of Googling:

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

And I'm not even mentioning what British Jews in academia have told me off the record.

1234 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:04:47pm

re: #1232 iceweasel

HA!

Yeah... The froth is strong. :)


(can't stop playing this...)

"When they pin me to the wall, I'll say I'm with America
With godless America I'll stand and I'll fall
Though it cuts me to my soul that it must be America
It must be America
Or nothing at all"

Me too! A truly great song, and video. I just noticed btw - what she is writing on the parchment at 2:30...lol

1235 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:08:26pm

re: #1234 Jimmah

"When they pin me to the wall, I'll say I'm with America
With godless America I'll stand and I'll fall
Though it cuts me to my soul that it must be America
It must be America
Or nothing at all"

Me too! A truly great song, and video. I just noticed btw - what she is writing on the parchment at 2:30...lol


HA! Wow-- never noticed that one bit. Perfect.

BTW, updinged and quoted for teh truth!

1236 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:14:46pm

re: #1231 iceweasel

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Jimmah, check this out too...cool stuff!

re: #1207 iceweasel

Oh, fantastic-- we'll have to have a talk about Dembski, yes! Link looks great!

I figured that if they had been cast out, the next stop for that bus is usually the land of Nod.

BTW, P-Zed Myers and some atheists got thrown out of the Creation Museum yesterday...I'll find a link.

1237 jvic  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:15:31pm

Camille Paglia is hedging on Palin but has not altogether written her off.

1238 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:15:38pm

re: #1236 haakondahl

Ugh. Posting wierdness. Nevermind.

1239 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:16:32pm

re: #1236 haakondahl

Land of nod! East! now i get it!

Very clever too! Now i get to upding you twice...

1240 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:17:23pm

re: #1237 jvic

Camille Paglia is hedging on Palin but has not altogether written her off.

jvic, what do you think of Paglia?

1241 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:19:59pm

re: #1233 Former Belgian

Found in 10 seconds of Googling:

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

And I'm not even mentioning what British Jews in academia have told me off the record.

I knew of the first comment - I don't find it to be anti-semitic, just ill informed. Remember - he is left wing, and suffers from some of the over shrillness and misconceptions popular in certain quarters of the UK left - for example he had a good case of BDS as I remember. But on the other hand he stood square with America after 9/11 at a time when many on the left (and religious right) were blaming America for it. And what you have to keep in mind about Dawkins is that he is anti all forms of religion, and regularly offends the sacred cows of many belief systems. If you are going to call him anti-semitic, you must also call him an anti-Christian bigot, an Islamophobe, a Hindu-phobe and so on.

1242 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:37:59pm

re: #1235 iceweasel

"When they pin me to the wall, I'll say I'm with America
With godless America I'll stand and I'll fall
Though it cuts me to my soul that it must be America
It must be America
Or nothing at all"

HA! Wow-- never noticed that one bit. Perfect.

BTW, updinged and quoted for teh truth!

And now from the "Hey- that's apt as fuck twice over" files - from a piece by Dawkins following the 9/11 attacks:

[Link: 209.85.229.132...]


With perverse injustice, a wave of anti-American verbal nastiness – accompanied by nice, liberal self-doubt – was triggered by the physical anti-Americanism of September 11th. We hear talk of Coca Cola, MacDonalds and other unpopular icons of supposed American culture. These are not what I would be sorry to lose, and they are relatively trivial. Modern America is the principal inheritor, and today's leading exponent, of European scientific and rational civilisation. And that means the highest civilisation ever, not excluding the Greeks and Chinese.

When we bend over backwards to see the other point of view and blame ourselves for everything; when we fall over ourselves to sympathise with religious 'hurt', 'offence' and legitimate grievance; when we tie ourselves in knots to avoid anything that could conceivably be misinterpreted as racist, let us keep a sense of proportion. The chips are down, and I suddenly know whose side I am on. A world without Islam, indeed a world from which all three Abrahamic religions had been lost, would not be an obviously worse world in which to live. You may take that as British understatement if you choose. But a world which had lost enlightened scientific reason (which is at its best in America, and not only because more resources are spent on it) would be impoverished beyond all telling. So I hope I shall not sound too corny if I want to stand up as a friend of America. Even (and it feels like pulling teeth to say so) Bush's America.

1243 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:49:31pm

re: #1242 Jimmah

"When they pin me to the wall, I'll say I'm with America
With godless America I'll stand and I'll fall
Though it cuts me to my soul that it must be America
It must be America
Or nothing at all"

And now from the "Hey- that's apt as fuck twice over" files - from a piece by Dawkins following the 9/11 attacks:

[Link: 209.85.229.132...]

Some of that is too much pro-America for me (the whole piece, that is). I see it as a piece of that time, and I get it, and it was surely a necessary corrective to what he correctly decries and the anti-americanism that was flooding the (UK) left then...

But yeah, that is apt as fuck.

(Although I was chastised earlier today for my use of the F word. )

1244 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:51:42pm
1245 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:04:02pm

re: #1243 iceweasel

Some of that is too much pro-America for me (the whole piece, that is). I see it as a piece of that time, and I get it, and it was surely a necessary corrective to what he correctly decries and the anti-americanism that was flooding the (UK) left then...

But yeah, that is apt as fuck.

(Although I was chastised earlier today for my use of the F word. )

Perhaps a little, but then I think I was too at that time, for similar reasons.

And yes, the 'JF' term - I saw that - heh. I don't think I swear that much but I've used the 'JTFC' term once or twice here in the past without it getting complaints. These "rules" are selectively applied of course.

1246 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:04:32pm

Dinner time - BBL

1247 jvic  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:08:08pm

re: #1240 iceweasel

jvic, what do you think of Paglia?

I'm not easily impressed, but what I read gets my respect.

In particular, she has remained in touch with, and has validated and vouched for, the grittiness of ethnic immigrant life. That kind of decency to me represents the moral claim of the left. It's all very well talk about how the market economy maximizes overall utility--and I do so talk--, but one shouldn't lose sight of the practical consequences on individual human beings.

When I come across today's leftist thought, usually it simply doesn't engage my interest. It strikes me as speculative utopianism that would lead us into a backwater of history. (I react similarly to much of the postReagan right.) Paglia is an exception because I see her grounded in the authentic human roots of the left rather than in the coffee shops of Greenwich Village (if they haven't all been gentrified away) or Cambridge.

I am probably more dismissive than I should be of contemporary culture. Like the man said, 99% of everything is crap--but you miss out if you assume that 100% is crap. Paglia is one of the few observers who can take me to today's scene via a path that I regard as legitimate.

As the child of destitute refugees, I live with the sense that our institutions are vulnerable to being swept away. I live with that sense despite being an optimist by intellect. Someone like Paglia, with one foot in the working-class immigrant experience and the other in the avant-garde, gives my intellectual optimism talking points with which to address my pessimistic wary instincts.

I've given a rambling & holistic reaction to your question rather than a cerebral one--what I feel about Paglia, not what I think--, but hopefully some of it addresses what you asked.
***
Speaking of instinctive pessimism, if I don't want to start begging for a dead-end job and feel lucky to get it, I'd best log out of LGF and put my PC into a workstation mode. Take care.

1248 Irish Rose  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:08:26pm

Good grief.
Bad craziness at LGF today.. I hope you took your vitamins this morning, Charles.

1249 Wendya  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:12:57pm

re: #1227 iceweasel

yes, I have read the bill.


Then you've already read how absolutely horrible it is for small business owners.

1250 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:14:12pm

re: #1244 taxfreekiller


explain the difference

The difference is that some of now know it should be "you're", not "your"

*rimshot*

///

1251 The Left  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:16:18pm

re: #1247 jvic


***
Speaking of instinctive pessimism, if I don't want to start begging for a dead-end job and feel lucky to get it, I'd best log out of LGF and put my PC into a workstation mode. Take care.

Cheers jvic-- saved this. I'll reply later too when I can. must run for now!

1252 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:20:58pm
1253 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:23:07pm
1254 American Sabra  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 3:43:08pm

re: #157 iceweasel

hell yes I do! I bet we read some of the same ones! mudflats, of course is my main one. You?

Sorry I missed this comment! Mudflats is it! lol (I'm partial to Brian the Moose.)

1255 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 4:22:32pm

re: #128 american sabra

The two were a bad combination, but he would have had a fighting chance and I suspect would have garnered many more votes had he picked someone else. It was an ill-conceived idea to be all "mavericky" and pick a woman. People were looking at Palin as a very possible President in light of McCain's age and health and the country did not want her. And yes him, either.

Nobody on the right actually liked McCain. We liked Palin as a back-seater, and she energized the ticket.
She's not ready to be president. But she was more qualified than Obama, a fact lost on those who voted for Obama and hated Palin.

1256 haakondahl  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 4:23:06pm

re: #1253 taxfreekiller

when yoour a jerk, their is no need to proven it, but be my guess


butt

1257 LeslieG  Mon, Aug 10, 2009 4:48:32pm

"Palin Calls for Restraint at Town Halls"

And Steven Crowder takes us on location to see how "Chaos, Violence & Rage Are Fueling Right Wing Hate Mobs"

A real eye opener!

1258 JEA62  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:30:29pm

I wish my mother had left a living will. All this theory becomes a buncha crap when you're standing there looking at someone laying on a bad as pretty much a vegetable for five years.


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