GOP Senator: Palin's 'Death Panel' Charge is 'Nuts'

GOP Senator: Palin’s ‘Death Panel’ Charge is ‘Nuts’

PoliticsAugust 2009 • Views: 3,070

Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.) said today that Sarah Palin’s description of the end of life provisions in the House bill as “death panels” is “nuts”.

Q: How did this become a question of euthanasia?

ISAKSON: I have no idea. I understand — and you have to check this out — I just had a phone call where someone said Sarah Palin’s web site had talked about the House bill having death panels on it where people would be euthanized. How someone could take an end of life directive or a living will as that is nuts. You’re putting the authority in the individual rather than the government. I don’t know how that got so mixed up.

Q: You’re saying that this is not a question of government. It’s for individuals.

ISAKSON: It empowers you to be able to make decisions at a difficult time rather than having the government making them for you.

Q: The policy here as I understand it is that Medicare would cover a counseling session with your doctor on end-of-life options.

ISAKSON: Correct. And it’s a voluntary deal.

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540 comments

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:27:18pm

karmic_inquisitor Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:27:32pm

Well then. Time to attack the living shit out of Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.)

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:28:08pm

re: #2 karmic_inquisitor

Well then. Time to attack the living shit out of Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.)

RINO!
/

karmic_inquisitor Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:28:30pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

“Death Panel” sounds like the name for a reality TV show. Give it, say, five years.

It could be a reality game show!

LatinGent Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:28:37pm

I entertained the thought of a center right Sarah energizing a common sense base of common folks. I fear she has caved to the very people that are trying to tear us apart.

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:28:42pm

Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:29:27pm

Google ads are back with their weird word-association links.

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:30:03pm

Obama’s Euthanasia Mistake

For those of us who believe that the absence of universal health care is America’s burning shame, the spectacle of opposition to Obama’s health-care plan is Alice-in-Wonderland bewildering and also enraging—but on one point the plan’s critics are absolutely correct. One of the key ideas under consideration—which can be read as expressing sympathy for limitations on end-of-life care—is morally revolting. And it’s helping to kill the plan itself.

Make no mistake about it. Determining which treatments are “cost effective” at the end of a person’s life and which are not is one of Obama’s priorities. It’s one of the principal ways he counts on saving money and making universal healthcare affordable.

This is the Big Brother nightmare of oppressive government that the shrewd propagandists on the right are always blathering on about. Except that this time, they could not be more right.

Obama told Diane Sawyer in June that government should “study and figure out what works and what doesn’t. And let’s encourage doctors and patients to get what works. Let’s discourage what doesn’t.”

Sawyer then asked him: “Will it just be encouragement? Or will there be a board making Solomonic decisions?”

Obama replied, “What I’ve suggested is—is that we have a—a commission that helps—made up of doctors, made up of experts, that helps set best—best practices.”

When Sawyer pressed him to say whether those practices would be enforced by law, he evaded the question.

This reeks of the Big Brother nightmare of oppressive government that the shrewd propagandists on the right are always blathering on about. Except that this time, they could not be more right.

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:30:04pm

I get to go meet a lizard or two this evening.

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:31:18pm

Rational opposition to Obama’s health care plan will not be tolerated!

Jack Burton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:31:44pm

re: #7 Alouette

Google ads are back with their weird word-association links.

LOL… “nuts” in the posting and there’s all these ads about “balls”.

tradewind Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:31:55pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey
It won’t take five years…

Who Wants To Take a Dirt Nap?
The Great Race to Room Temperature
Get Me Out Of Here, I’m Still Breathing
America’s Got Undertakers
So You Think You Can Live?

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:32:04pm

I’m trying very hard not to become exasperated with the number of irrelevant people whose statements are being made hay with.

I listen to Rush Limbaugh the same way I listen to music - because I can’t do just one thing. He’s funny. He’s occasionally an idiot. He’s occasionally wise.

I don’t take advice from Sarah Palin. I could really care less what she said, now that several days have passed. I am unclear on why so many people are debating what she said, and not what’s actually being proposed to congress.

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:32:20pm

Savings, he writes, will require changing how doctors think about their patients: Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, “as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others” (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).

Yes, that’s what patients want their doctors to do. But Emanuel wants doctors to look beyond the needs of their patients and consider social justice, such as whether the money could be better spent on somebody else.

Many doctors are horrified by this notion; they’ll tell you that a doctor’s job is to achieve social justice one patient at a time.

Emanuel, however, believes that “communitarianism” should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens … An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia” (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. ‘96).

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:32:27pm

re: #7 Alouette

Google ads are back with their weird word-association links.

“American Balls Shaver’
/lol

doppelganglander Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:32:31pm

Thanks, Johnny. You see, Georgia is not totally populated by morons.

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:33:02pm

The section, on page 425 of the bill, offers to pay once every five years for a voluntary, not mandatory, consultation with a doctor, who will not blatantly tell the patient how to end his or her life sooner, but will explain to the patient the set of options available at the end of life, including living wills, palliative care and hospice, life sustaining treatment, and all aspects of advance care planning, including, presumably, the decision to end one’s life.
The shading in of human particulars is what makes this so unsettling. A doctor guided by a panel of experts who have decided that some treatments are futile will, in subtle ways, advance that point of view. Cass Sunstein calls this “nudging,” which he characterizes as using various types of reinforcement techniques to “nudge” people’s behavior in one direction or another. An elderly or sick person would be especially vulnerable to the sophisticated nudging of an authority figure like a doctor.

Bad enough for such people who are lucky enough to be supported by family and friends. But what about the dying person who is all alone in the world and who has only the “consultant” to turn to and rely on? The heartlessness of such a scene is chilling.

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:34:06pm

re: #4 karmic_inquisitor

It could be a reality game show!

Oh, please, oh, please!

I’m sorry, but wouldn’t you (just briefly, fleetingly, and not once you recovered your more charitable instincts) love to see one of the idiots on something like Survivor subjected to something for real?

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:34:11pm

[Link: findarticles.com…]

Page eight.

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:34:20pm

re: #13 Dianna

I am unclear on why so many people are debating what she said, and not what’s actually being proposed to congress.

That’s really the core of the problem. Most of the protesters are objecting to a bill that only exists in their minds. It has nothing to do with reality.

Charles Johnson Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:34:39pm

re: #17 Ben Hur

You do realize that current health insurance plans are already doing exactly this?

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:35:22pm

Go Johnny Go go go!!!

Pardon the OT, but you guys gonna check out the meteor shower tonight?

tradewind Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:35:25pm

re: #17 Ben Hur

consultation with a doctor, who will not blatantly tell the patient how to end his or her life

Well of course not. They’ll have post-graduate degrees in nuance before they can touch that.

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:36:21pm

Somebody click on the “older men with big balls add”. I don’t have the ~~balls~~ guts to do it myself.

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:36:54pm

re: #16 doppelganglander

Thanks, Johnny. You see, Georgia is not totally populated by morons.

Let’s import a few for California! Oh, and some pecans, while we’re at it.

_RememberTonyC Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:37:05pm

the pendulum of nuttiness has swung far to the right, it will eventually swing the other way as pendulums tend to do. Hopefully by next summer it will have settled to the right of center, but not all the way to the right.

I have no use for extremists of any type, and most voters probably feel similarly.

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:37:21pm

re: #19 MandyManners

[Link: findarticles.com…]

Page eight.

This civic republican or deliberative democratic conception of the good provides both procedural and substantive insights for developing a just allocation of health care resources. Procedurally, it suggests the need for public forums to deliberate about which health services should be considered basic and should be socially guaranteed. Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity - those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberation - are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:37:31pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Somebody click on the “older men with big balls add”. I don’t have the ~~balls~~ guts to do it myself.

Still looking at the blonde are ya?

Flyovercountry Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:37:31pm

Palin’s use of words coupled with her obvious histrionics was unfortunate. It did nothing to help the cause to defeat this terrible bill. There is a larger point which is lost in the debate over Palin’s idiotic statement. This bill, gives the government the authority to make real decisions on the course of treatment for individuals needing medical attention. The tools would be in place to make those decisions based on anything the government deems fit to include in the decision making process. No matter what you believe about our current representatives and their intentions, do you hold that same faith in the future officials you have not met yet. This gives the government the tools to greatly expand its power over the next 20 to 100 years. I read an op-ed in Investors Business Daily today which listed Canada’s Health Care System as the leading cause of death in Canada. Do we really have a system which is bad enough to switch to that? This is not about health care, this is about Government Control.

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:37:43pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

That’s really the core of the problem. Most of the protesters are objecting to a bill that only exists in their minds. It has nothing to do with reality.

There isn’t a bill, yet. Just a soggy mess that no one in their right mind would allow to govern their health care.

sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:37:49pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

That’s really the core of the problem. Most of the protesters are objecting to a bill that only exists in their minds. It has nothing to do with reality.

POINT OF ORDER
They are objecting to items that are in the various proposals making their way thru committees. Are some of themgetting too rambunctious? YES

Are some of them ill informed? ABSOLUTELY

But NOW is the time to shed light on what is and is not going to come out of the houses, not after a flawed bill is passed in the name DOING SOMETHING

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:38:48pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Neither have I! No way am I clicking that!

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:38:58pm

re: #21 Charles

You do realize that current health insurance plans are already doing exactly this?

And it’s already a part of Medicare. The proposals in this bill do modify the Medicare rules, but all in all, it’s nothing new.

(See page 424 SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.)

You may want to read this whole section through page 623 for “end of life” information that is scattered though those pages.

wrenchwench Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:39:05pm

The next paragraphs of the interview quoted:

[Ezra Klein:] It seems to me we’re having trouble conducting an adult conversation about death. We pay a lot of money not to face these questions. We prefer to experience the health-care system as something that just saves you, and if it doesn’t, something has gone wrong.
[Johnny Isakson:] Over the last three-and-a-half decades, this legislation has been passed state-by-state, in part because of the tort issue and in part because of many other things. It’s important for an individual to make those determinations while they’re of sound mind and body rather than no one making those decisions at all. But this discussion has been going on for three decades.

It seems to me we’re having trouble conducting an adult conversation about a lot of things.

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:39:09pm

ISAKSON: I have no idea. I understand — and you have to check this out — I just had a phone call where someone said Sarah Palin’s web site had talked about the House bill having death panels on it where people would be euthanized. How someone could take an end of life directive or a living will as that is nuts. You’re putting the authority in the individual rather than the government. I don’t know how that got so mixed up.

Really? You don’t bother to check a rumor that someone said and you have no idea how this got so mixed up?

Is it just me, or does this guy sound like he is intentionally misrepresenting something? Did Sarah say that the panels would euthanize people, or simply deny them care based on their judgment? (Frankly, both seem like over the top hyperbole, but the denial of care is what I have seen some people are afraid of.) The whole euthanasia thing looks like an attempt to cast the ‘rationed care’ argument as nonsense.

Wendya Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:39:54pm

Why does everyone continue to confuse an end of life directive with panels such as NICE in Great Britain? One is something everyone should consider and the other is the government’s way to set a monetary value on your life in order to determine if services should be rendered.

Maui Girl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:40:22pm

Apparently the State of Oregon, that has universal health care, has some kind of program that offers euthanasia to the terminally ill or to those people the State won’t provide expensive medication to that might successfully treat an otherwise fatal condition. Saw it on O’Reilly last night. It was like, $40,000 for the medication or $50 for the euthanasia. Gee, under a government run healthcare system, which would be more cost effective?

Occasional Reader Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:41:10pm

The Death Panel is nothing short of genocide.

OBAMA = HITLER!

///

dwells38 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:41:15pm

Palin’s statement from Aug 7th didn’t say anything about the end of life counseling and only a passing reference to anything like euthanasia.

She seemed mostly concerned about the need to ration care which could lead to the government/physician panel needing to use a QALY type method of determining who gets treated like is used in the UK.

FrogMarch Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:41:18pm

Dang it. I have another question for Obama.

How can you have a “public option” without taxpayers funding it?

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:41:28pm

re: #14 MandyManners

Savings, he writes, will require changing how doctors think about their patients: Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, “as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others” (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).

That is done everyday now. If it would cost several 100K for a procedure to keep me alive with dementia at 90. that’s money that could save infants. The same life and death choices are made on transplants and care by insurance companies now.

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:41:53pm

Here’s a link to the PDF of the draft bill that’s before committees, it will take a minute to load

[Link: frwebgate.access.gpo.gov…]

reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:42:27pm

re: #37 Maui Girl

Why not go with the .21 cent bullet then!
These people make me CRAZY…er!

fooburger Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:42:30pm

This is very bothersome. The context on Sarah Palin is that she has a child with Down Syndrome. Everybody seems to be forgetting this when they ratchet up attacks on her statement.

Right now, people with such children have several lines of defense:
1) the insurer just doing what it’s supposed to do
2) appealing an insurance decision to a governmental body (in court if necessary)
3) publicly shaming an insurer for providing insufficient or incorrect insurance
4) enrolling in public programs for covering the handicapped

Nationalizing health care will eliminate at least one of these, possibly two. While the rest of us may be rightfully less alarmed by this, those with handicapped children *should* be alarmed.

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:42:59pm

re: #21 Charles

You do realize that current health insurance plans are already doing exactly this?

That’s a gov vs private debate.

He’s not setting up a private universal insurance company.

Occasional Reader Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:43:14pm

re: #3 Shiplord Kirel

re: #2 karmic_inquisitor

Well then. Time to attack the living shit out of Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.)

RINO!
/

Actually, since he’s refuting an allegation that doctors would not follow their Hippocratic Oaths, wouldn’t that make him a HIPPO?

KingKenrod Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #37 Maui Girl

Apparently the State of Oregon, that has universal health care, has some kind of program that offers euthanasia to the terminally ill or to those people the State won’t provide expensive medication to that might successfully treat an otherwise fatal condition. Saw it on O’Reilly last night. It was like, $40,000 for the medication or $50 for the euthanasia. Gee, under a government run healthcare system, which would be more cost effective?

The state wouldn’t pay for expensive chemo and offered pain management and counseling instead. The ill woman was able to get the expensive drug through a donation from the pharma company who made the drug, but died soon thereafter anyway.

reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:43:37pm

re: #38 Occasional Reader

Your slipping OR!
There is no PUN in that post!

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:44:04pm

re: #35 CyanSnowHawk

Really? You don’t bother to check a rumor that someone said and you have no idea how this got so mixed up?

Is it just me, or does this guy sound like he is intentionally misrepresenting something? Did Sarah say that the panels would euthanize people, or simply deny them care based on their judgment? (Frankly, both seem like over the top hyperbole, but the denial of care is what I have seen some people are afraid of.) The whole euthanasia thing looks like an attempt to cast the ‘rationed care’ argument as nonsense.

I don’t know. What does Death Panel mean to you? Not that she’s trying to alarm anyone for no good reason or anything.

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:44:07pm

Palindrome (n.) a pathological condition of moral turpitude that condones lying, obfuscation, and demagoguery up to and including emotionally misleading use of your own progeny to score specious political points. See harasnilap.

sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:44:28pm

re: #40 FrogMarch

Dang it. I have another question for Obama.

How can you have a “public option” without taxpayers funding it?

But don’t you see Igor ,, thats the BRILLIANCE of this plan

NOBODY will pay ,, not even the gov’t!
They’ll just keep the (money) printing presses rolling and rolling!!

I can’t WAIT till I have to take my wheelbarrel full of greenbacks to the store just to buy a Snickers Bar

Bwwwaaahahahahahahah

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:44:48pm

re: #22 American Sabra

Go Johnny Go go go!!!

Pardon the OT, but you guys gonna check out the meteor shower tonight?

I am…thinking about the Barringer Meteor(ite) Crater too. If we had another one all of a sudden, many would no doubt question the timing.

Occasional Reader Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:45:12pm

re: #37 Maui Girl

It was like, $40,000 for the medication or $50 for the euthanasia. Gee, under a government run healthcare system, which would be more cost effective?

Of course, the latter. But the same is true under a non-government run health care system.

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:45:13pm

Czarny_Smok

If you want a glimpse into how ObamaCare will work (despite all the denials) take a look at Rahm Emanuel’s brother’s thinking at “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” by Govind Persad BS , Alan Wertheimer PhD , Ezekiel J Emanuel MD at The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009. The Good Dr. Emanuel is a healthcare advisor for The Bama.

“Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.”
And …

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:45:17pm

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Palindrome (n.) a pathological condition of moral turpitude that condones lying, obfuscation, and demagoguery up to and including emotionally misleading use of your own progeny to score specious political points. See harasnilap.

LOL now that’s comedy!

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:45:36pm

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Don’t you think it’s enough already?

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:46:13pm

re: #33 Walter L. Newton

And it’s already a part of Medicare. The proposals in this bill do modify the Medicare rules, but all in all, it’s nothing new.

(See page 424 SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.)

You may want to read this whole section through page 623 for “end of life” information that is scattered though those pages.

WEll, that put a damper on my “gov vs private” answer.

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:46:18pm

re: #52 Shiplord Kirel

I am…thinking about the Barringer Meteor(ite) Crater too. If we had another one all of a sudden, many would no doubt question the timing.

Oh! Big crater! I just hope I can see it tonight and I don’t forget lol

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:46:19pm

re: #56 Ben Hur

Don’t you think it’s enough already?

No.

Occasional Reader Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:46:26pm

I’m been thinking of having my study redecorated in some nice Death Paneling, actually.

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:46:34pm

re: #37 Maui Girl

Saw it on O’Reilly last night.

That should be a clue.

Flyovercountry Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:47:07pm

re: #37 Maui Girl

Apparently the State of Oregon, that has universal health care, has some kind of program that offers euthanasia to the terminally ill or to those people the State won’t provide expensive medication to that might successfully treat an otherwise fatal condition. Saw it on O’Reilly last night. It was like, $40,000 for the medication or $50 for the euthanasia. Gee, under a government run healthcare system, which would be more cost effective?

These are the kind of arguments which do nothing to help. We are all going to die some day, sorry, but that is the fact. It may be possible that Oregon’s plan is simply a way to help people deal with that fact, and not a business decission. End of life counseling is offered in most current health plans as well as many long term care policies. Many insurance companies also include counseling for family members who will one day have to watch a mom or dad pass. It is not constructive to use these scare tactics to argue against a bill which already has a plethora of things wrong with it. All that does is make people not believe our side of the argument. This bill stinks plenty all on its own.

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:47:12pm

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

That’s exactly what Sarah said on her facebook posting. From the framing and phrasing it could be interpreted that her son or others would have to go before some star court death panel of judges who would determine his worthiness. That’s not going to happen. Could some things be rationed? Yes, as some things are rationed in all medical plans. Would there be a board, panel or group that determines guidelines? Probably, just as there are now for every insurance co. out there.

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:47:13pm

My Nos. 27 and 54 were written by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel (brother of Rahm), one of FCBBHO’s advisers, and health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research.

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:47:18pm

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:47:26pm

re: #59 Cato the Elder

No.

Then your fucking sick.

(and no, I’m not a “Palin supporter.”

It’s enough about her son.

iLikeCandy Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:47:28pm

Has Charles Lane’s piece been posted here yet?

Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233 aren’t quite “purely voluntary,” as Rep. Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.) asserts. To me, “purely voluntary” means “not unless the patient requests one.” Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive — money — to do so. Indeed, that’s an incentive to insist.

Patients may refuse without penalty, but many will bow to white-coated authority. Once they’re in the meeting, the bill does permit “formulation” of a plug-pulling order right then and there. So when Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.) denies that Section 1233 would “place senior citizens in situations where they feel pressured to sign end-of-life directives that they would not otherwise sign,” I don’t think he’s being realistic.

What’s more, Section 1233 dictates, at some length, the content of the consultation. The doctor “shall” discuss “advanced care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to”; “an explanation of … living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses” (even though these are legal, not medical, instruments); and “a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families.” The doctor “shall” explain that Medicare pays for hospice care (hint, hint).

(snip)

As it happens, I have a living will and a durable power of attorney for health care. I’m glad I do. I drew them up based on publicly available medical information, in consultation with my family and a lawyer. No authority figure got paid by federal bean-counters to influence me. I have a hunch I’m not the only one who would rather do it that way.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

Sarah did not make a sober choice of words, but once enough money has drained out of the system and services are sufficiently and inevitably degraded, people will reasonably consider themselves subject to the decisions of “death panels.”

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:47:42pm

re: #52 Shiplord Kirel

I am…thinking about the Barringer Meteor(ite) Crater too. If we had another one all of a sudden, many would no doubt question the timing.

It’s the end of the world as we know it, but I feel fine.

Occasional Reader Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:48:46pm

re: #65 buzzsawmonkey

Dead trees, or are you going for the ossuary look?

I’d opt for the latter, but I worry that it’ll get me packed off to one of Obama’s FEMUR camps.

FrogMarch Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:49:16pm

re: #54 MandyManners

promoting and rewarding social usefulness.

We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.

AKA - big daddy government saying yes to some, no to others.

Charles Johnson Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:49:21pm

People keep pulling out these details about end of life care, and holding them up as if they’re examples of horrors that must be resisted at all costs. But all of these examples are already in current insurance plans and in Medicare. I haven’t seen anything yet in the House bill that goes beyond these kinds of standard care concepts for people reaching the ends of their lives.

I have to agree, the label “death panel” is nuts.

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:49:39pm

re: #54 MandyManners

Czarny_Smok

If you want a glimpse into how ObamaCare will work (despite all the denials) take a look at Rahm Emanuel’s brother’s thinking at “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” by Govind Persad BS , Alan Wertheimer PhD , Ezekiel J Emanuel MD at The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009. The Good Dr. Emanuel is a healthcare advisor for The Bama.

“Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.”
And …

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

And where is there any language in the proposed bill that addresses these methods? Or even something close?

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:49:44pm

re: #66 Ben Hur

Then your fucking sick.

(and no, I’m not a “Palin supporter.”

It’s enough about her son.

Oh, go get an apostrophe.

She’s the one who used him in her lying propaganda.

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:50:05pm

re: #13 Dianna

I’m trying very hard not to become exasperated with the number of irrelevant people whose statements are being made hay with.

I listen to Rush Limbaugh the same way I listen to music - because I can’t do just one thing. He’s funny. He’s occasionally an idiot. He’s occasionally wise.

I don’t take advice from Sarah Palin. I could really care less what she said, now that several days have passed. I am unclear on why so many people are debating what she said, and not what’s actually being proposed to congress.

Because she exemplifies, as does Rush, the worst in debate. An attempt to stir up people’s fear and anger by lying about facts in such a way to manufacture outrage.

Not only does this misdirect the conversation, eliminating the ability to talk about real issue, it causes further mistrust on all sides that talking about issues is even worth the effort.

They are not irrelevant if they can be shown to have a significant effect on society. I think both Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh are clearly NOT irrelevant and that is mainly because the base of the Republican party believes them. Rush is not considered “a comedian” by the base as much as he is considered a leader.

They will become irrelevant when Republicans stop trying to play both sides of the street: The Party of Adults, not always compassionate, but consistent, straight forward and correct. Instead of claiming they are such party but at the same time tying themselves to and taking talking points from people who’s only desire is to push themselves up at the expense of everyone around them.

reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:50:14pm

re: #52 Shiplord Kirel
Oh yea!!
That’s where Star Man landed…and …ah ..Left!!
///

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:50:14pm

re: #54 MandyManners

He’s talking about organ transplants, where people are already dieing because there are not enough donors. What’s your plan on how to allocate kidneys knowing that some will not get them?

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:50:18pm

re: #70 FrogMarch

AKA - big daddy government saying yes to some, no to others.

A government not too long ago decided which people would live and which would die based on their usefulness to the state.

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:50:29pm

re: #73 Cato the Elder

Oh, go get an apostrophe.

She’s the one who used him in her lying propaganda.

I wish you could try and come a give it to me.

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:50:35pm

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:50:44pm

re: #60 Occasional Reader

I’m been thinking of having my study redecorated in some nice Death Paneling, actually.

Here’s a mural for it.

Shug Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:51:07pm

CAROUSEL !

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:51:07pm

re: #78 Ben Hur

I wish you could try and come a give it to me.

I never fight with drunks.

reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:51:52pm

re: #79 buzzsawmonkey

The death panel forces you to confront the question, “Tibia or not to be?”

FTFY!

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:51:54pm

re: #82 Cato the Elder

I never fight with drunks.

You woldn’t be fighting.

Charles Johnson Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:52:04pm

I wonder — if there were no end of life provisions in the bill, would the GOP be screaming “Obamacare doesn’t even care about old people”?

fooburger Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:52:16pm

I have one more comment here about all the wailing regarding health expenditures ‘causing’ bankruptcies.

As a society, we have made the conscious decision to place our health at the top of the list of most important things in our lives. For most people, it’s more important than owning a home, more important than owning a car, and more important than leaving an inheritance for their children and grandchildren.

It is only fitting that our health care expenditures thus exceed those of cars, mortgages, and leisure items, whereas currently it doesn’t.

This is an artifact of living in a society which is not (currently) strapped for basic provisions. If our families were going to lose members to starvation every couple of years when a drought came around, why would ‘health’ be our top concern and monetary expenditure?

This is a natural progression of society which is being pretty well served by the health care market.

In sum: People are now free of the needs of daily survival to focus on their health. It must be no surprise that we’re now willing to shift spending to our own health.

The administration is attempting to apply an early 20th century fix to a 21st century problem all the while calling it ‘progressive’.

Maybe some our current social health care programs need reform or expansion, I don’t know. But revamping an entire industry merely because society’s focus is shifting seems like an extremist solution.

Occasional Reader Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:52:26pm

re: #81 Shug

CAROUSEL !

They had to whack Farrah, because she knew too much.

UNCOVER DA TROOF!

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:52:29pm

Imagine diabolical medical profiteers prescribing bullets for euthanasia…
These are the same people who charge you 50 bucks for an aspirin.
If you think ammo is expensive now…

Maui Girl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:52:30pm

re: #47 KingKenrod

Thanks for the details. I wasn’t sure.

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:52:37pm

re: #57 Ben Hur

WEll, that put a damper on my “gov vs private” answer.

There are many sections of the proposed bill that will amend or change Social Security rules, Medicare and Medicaid rules and the IRS Tax Code.

I guess this is standard practice to imbed new proposals that change existing law in other bills that have already passed, but it seems like an end run way to get something into another program without going through the separate process of trying to amend procedures the existing program.

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:52:41pm

re: #67 iLikeCandy

Has Charles Lane’s piece been posted here yet?

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

Sarah did not make a sober choice of words, but once enough money has drained out of the system and services are sufficiently and inevitably degraded, people will reasonably consider themselves subject to the decisions of “death panels.”

Just as we are today. Medical science can keep a body warm a long time given limitless amounts of money, but the insurance companies can and do limit extraordinary extension of life procedures.

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:52:42pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Somebody click on the “older men with big balls add”. I don’t have the ~~balls~~ guts to do it myself.

Hahahahaha!

It’s a webcrawler search.

Men with large testicles

Big & Beautiful Singles

Men With Large Balls

Rich Older Men

YouTube - Man with Big Balls

Big Balls Free Dating, Singles and Personals

Ball - Buy affordable ball bearing online

The Biggest Balls of All

The Home of Big EBulges

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:53:22pm

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:53:25pm

re: #85 Charles

I wonder — if there were no end of life provisions in the bill, would the GOP be screaming “Obamacare doesn’t even care about old people”?

rofl That deserved a good ::snort::!

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:53:29pm

re: #76 Thanos

He’s talking about organ transplants, where people are already dieing because there are not enough donors. What’s your plan on how to allocate kidneys knowing that some will not get them?

Why allow the government to do so?

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:53:38pm

re: #77 MandyManners

A government not too long ago decided which people would live and which would die based on their usefulness to the state.

Mandy. I asked above where is there language of this kind in the proposals contained in this health care document?

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:54:21pm

re: #71 Charles

People keep pulling out these details about end of life care, and holding them up as if they’re examples of horrors that must be resisted at all costs. But all of these examples are already in current insurance plans and in Medicare. I haven’t seen anything yet in the House bill that goes beyond these kinds of standard care concepts for people reaching the ends of their lives.

I have to agree, the label “death panel” is nuts.

Above and beyond that I support some of the recommendations. People should make a living will so their wishes are followed, and not unknown - it’s an individual choice.

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:54:26pm

Is it true or is it not true that those who refuse to participate in that counselling will be denied medical care?

medaura18586 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:54:41pm

You know, what I don’t get is the consistent overlap between those who believe that “we as a society” have decided that poor people cannot “die off in the streets” and hence that health care is some sort of positive human right on the one hand, and those who believe in a public option, or some sort of collectivized health care, or who are otherwise sympathetic to Obama’s initiative on this issue on the other hand.

I am an atheist, but I agree with Charles that one doesn’t have to be one in order to accept evolution.

I am also one of those selfish bastards who doesn’t think people “dying in the streets,” “the poor,” “the homeless,” or any such sob story is any of my business, unless I happen to be inclined to ameliorate their condition by means of voluntary charitable donations. The only reason I pay (and will continue to) those portions of my taxes that go toward distributive ends is because if I don’t, I’ll go to jail, and not because I believe I have a moral obligation to the “underprivileged.”

There, I said it. I don’t buy into John Rawls’s theory of justice. Compulsion alone is what compels compliance in me with certain schemes of society. Call me cold-hearted, callous, I don’t care. That being said, even if I did buy into this beautiful altruistic concoction certain people’s hearts are bleeding over, the way to go about successfully and efficiently ensuring that no one go without health care or “die off in the streets” is not through the socialized/collectivist utopias Obama and Congress are trying to push down our throats.

Deregulate the insurance industry, abolish interstate barriers, as well as state-specific restrictions/conditions to coverage, shield a certain lump-sum portion of income (depending on family size) from taxation, for citizens to use as a health-care savings account. Get employers out of the way, and initiate comprehensive tort reform. Sure, some people will still not afford health insurance. To those, issue debit cards that can be used toward health coverage — the health-care equivalent of food stamps.

You don’t want people starving off in the streets, now do you? But does that mean food must be cooked by the administration on a daily basis and administered in government soup kitchens for everyone? Doesn’t it just make more sense to directly give those who can’t afford food the means to buy it? Think about it!

It is true that people who believe in a deity don’t have to necessarily succumb to creationist nonsense, but they are inherently drawn to it on average. The same principles, mental processes, and emotional needs that orient the human psyche toward belief in a personal God, also predispose it toward other dogmas in the same domain. Likewise, the same moral memes that got people convinced that “we as a society” must decide this and that, and take care of the poor, provide welfare, health care, and free education to those unwilling to work hard enough to provide for themselves and to their children, also are drawn to collective, Utopian, inefficient solutions to practical problems.

But whatever… I’m grateful to live in a land of such opportunity and vast, under-appreciated wealth, that most folks in the streets can afford to entertain such lofty altruistic pretensions. Most people here don’t know what real poverty is, what it looks like, and how people deal with it. Even “the poor” are fat in America. But reality is one thing, and our societal norms are another.

To the extent that economics is a normative discipline and to the extent that the health-care debate is economic in nature, no matter what your morality is, there is a single objective optimal approach to health care, and it’s along the lines I have mentioned, not along Obama’s proposal. I am not speaking from subjective whim. For anyone interested in the facts, figures, statistics, economic theory, and case studies, it should be as clear as evolution vs. creationism. The data is out there.

100

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:54:45pm

re: #85 Charles

I wonder — if there were no end of life provisions in the bill, would the GOP be screaming “Obamacare doesn’t even care about old people”?

Apparently, it was a Republican that originally suggested insurance cover it, if that means anything.

101

FrogMarch Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:54:51pm

re: #77 MandyManners

A government not too long ago decided which people would live and which would die based on their usefulness to the state.

The way these people think is concerning. John Holdren comes to mind.

102

reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:54:55pm

re: #93 buzzsawmonkey

I knew that!!
///

103

fizzlogic Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:54:58pm

re: #21 Charles

If you go to an attorney to have a will drawn up, most likely he or she will package a living will and a medical or durable power of attorney with it. It’s pretty standard.

104

medaura18586 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:55:08pm

re: #99 medaura18586

Re-posted from a dead thread. Thought this one needed the controversy.

105

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:55:29pm

re: #18 Dianna

Oh, please, oh, please!

I’m sorry, but wouldn’t you (just briefly, fleetingly, and not once you recovered your more charitable instincts) love to see one of the idiots on something like Survivor subjected to something for real?

I never watched that show, but I’ve been watching The Colony, on Discovery.
Ten people have to survive “after a virus wipes out civilization”.
They’ve had to come up with a water filtration system; put together various items (power washer motor, alternators from cars, batteries, and make gas from wood!) to generate electricity.
And they learned the hard way last week that security has to come before luxuries. (There is a gang of marauders that will try to break in to their warehouse and steal stuff; they do have instructions not to hurt anyone)

106

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:55:38pm

re: #71 Charles

People keep pulling out these details about end of life care, and holding them up as if they’re examples of horrors that must be resisted at all costs. But all of these examples are already in current insurance plans and in Medicare. I haven’t seen anything yet in the House bill that goes beyond these kinds of standard care concepts for people reaching the ends of their lives.

I have to agree, the label “death panel” is nuts.

But it’s a big, scary, sound-bite friendly two word criticism, however off-base, that turns opinion against the bill. That’s why it’s being used.

107

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:55:47pm

re: #77 MandyManners

A government not too long ago decided which people would live and which would die based on their usefulness to the state.

Heh. I hate the generality game, but there’s another play. “Some boardrooms today decide who lives and dies based on usefulness to the bottom line.”

108

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:03pm

OT-

Man guilty of groping Minnie Mouse

Next they can go after that duck that’s been running around the park with no pants and a sailor cap.

109

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:07pm

re: #74 keithgabryelski

I don’t agree. I think there’s a tendency to grab a sound bite and blow it up. I’m tired of it. I’m tired of people continuing to make hay from irrelevancies, and I am tired of demonization.

110

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:09pm

re: #98 MandyManners

Is it true or is it not true that those who refuse to participate in that counselling will be denied medical care?

It is voluntary counseling. What do you think?

111

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:09pm

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

Mandy. I asked above where is there language of this kind in the proposals contained in this health care document?

Musta’ missed your post.

I don’t know if it’s in the current form. However, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about a government employee’s writings, someone who has a hand in this debate at the highest levels.

112

Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:22pm

re: #54 MandyManners

Czarny_Smok

If you want a glimpse into how ObamaCare will work (despite all the denials) take a look at Rahm Emanuel’s brother’s thinking at “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” by Govind Persad BS , Alan Wertheimer PhD , Ezekiel J Emanuel MD at The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009. The Good Dr. Emanuel is a healthcare advisor for The Bama.

“Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.”
And …

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

promoting and rewarding social usefulness

Death Panels for the unemployed?

113

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:38pm

One of the coolest things about the Barringer Crater is that it remains privately owned, by the Barringer family. This is why it is not a national monument, which requires federal ownership. It is a national natural landmark, however.

114

iLikeCandy Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:48pm

re: #91 avanti

Just as we are today. Medical science can keep a body warm a long time given limitless amounts of money, but the insurance companies can and do limit extraordinary extension of life procedures.

Some don’t. Nice to have a choice, eh?

And once the system is sufficiently degraded and drained, no one will be providing those procedures — except to federal employees, union members, and others specifically exempted from single-payer healthcare.

115

wee fury Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:54pm

re: #98 MandyManners
No.

116

reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:54pm

re: #108 DaddyG

LOL
Now that’s some disturbing shit right there!!

117

SixDegrees Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:56:57pm

re: #37 Maui Girl

Apparently the State of Oregon, that has universal health care, has some kind of program that offers euthanasia to the terminally ill or to those people the State won’t provide expensive medication to that might successfully treat an otherwise fatal condition. Saw it on O’Reilly last night. It was like, $40,000 for the medication or $50 for the euthanasia. Gee, under a government run healthcare system, which would be more cost effective?

Nearly all health insurance plans these days cover a huge variety of treatments with varying amounts of coverage. Hospice care is commonly covered for a well-defined set of diseases and circumstances. Likewise, coverage for certain procedures - hyperbaric treatments for autistic children, for example - isn’t covered at all, because there is no evidence supporting their effectiveness. Yet other treatments are not covered under particular circumstances - no insurance company is going to pay for a heart transplant given to someone diagnosed with terminal cancer. (For that matter, none of the independent boards that decide on transplant worthiness would approve it, either, just as they routinely deny liver transplants to alcoholics.) In other words, there’s nothing surprising or new about differing coverage for differing procedures. And many of those decisions are grounded in a cost/benefit ratio analysis.

Given that O’Reilly was promoting this, I suspect massive distortion of the actual facts is at work. He’s making it sound as if, when a patient is diagnosed with an expensive to treat cancer, the state bean counter rushes in and starts pitching suicide. In fact, this is probably no different from the examples I’ve already outlined above - hospice care, or some aspects of it, are covered, the particular treatment in question for the particular patient in question isn’t.

I’ve tried searching for actual facts on this case, and there just don’t seem to be any to be found. There are a huge number of cut-and-paste shriek fests parroting it without analysis on various websites, but little in the way of actual substance. I would strongly question this particular claim just based on the source alone without further, independent confirmation.

118

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:57:12pm

re: #98 MandyManners

Is it true or is it not true that those who refuse to participate in that counselling will be denied medical care?

Do you have any reason to suspect that specific counseling is a requirement for any health care?

119

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:57:19pm

re: #101 FrogMarch

The way these people think is concerning. John Holdren comes to mind.

I wonder if he and Emanuel talk about this at length.

120

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:57:40pm

121

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:57:48pm

re: #85 Charles

I wonder — if there were no end of life provisions in the bill, would the GOP be screaming “Obamacare doesn’t even care about old people”?

Found the info on the Republican Doctor that was a cosponsor.

End of life counseling.

122

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:57:56pm

re: #108 DaddyG

OT-

Man guilty of groping Minnie Mouse

Next they can go after that duck that’s been running around the park with no pants and a sailor cap.

If this had happened to Farfur’s wife, she’d be the victim of an “honor killing”.

123

Maui Girl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:58:03pm

re: #53 Occasional Reader

I guess that would depend on what kind of private health insurance an individual had.

124

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:58:08pm

re: #107 Coracle

Heh. I hate the generality game, but there’s another play. “Some boardrooms today decide who lives and dies based on usefulness to the bottom line.”

Huh?

125

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:58:23pm

re: #78 Ben Hur

Please stop it. It won’t do a damned bit of good.

You could remind him he referred to the Queen Mother as the “non plus ultra” of class. Maybe that would make him pause in his arrogance, but one does doubt it.

Hint: he meant “ne plus ultra.”

126

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:58:43pm

re: #98 MandyManners

Is it true or is it not true that those who refuse to participate in that counselling will be denied medical care?

It’s true of any medical plan, if a doctor orders some sort of treatment, such as end of life counseling, and you refuse, then you could be dropped from the plan.

127

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:58:43pm

I care very little for the details of this. They aren’t even settled yet. The broad strokes of it are what has me exercised, about as much as the hurry-up-you-morons-or-I-can’t-capture-you-all stampedine toward legislation, good or bad. I didn’t like the jam-down in the McCain-Kennedy Immigration bill, and I don’t like it in this.
I hope to stop this legislation on the sufficient condition that something so incredibly game-changing is being hawked like a cheap car in a state without a lemon law.
If we screw this up, there will be Hell to pay, and it will be more difficult to undo than the Social Security mess, which has yet to be undone.
I oppose this legislation solidly on the grounds that nobody has shown it to be worthy of the disruption it will necessarily cause. I also oppose it because if the a public option makes it through, then true socialization won’t be far behind: the government will defend its ugly, ravenous baby from all competition, no matter what the intentions are surrounding its conception.
It is in the nature of bureaucracy. This thing will bankrupt us all while killing only some.
What’s not to hate?

128

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:59:05pm

re: #110 Cato the Elder

It is voluntary counseling. What do you think?

As long as it’s voluntary, I have no problem with it.

129

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:59:06pm

re: #85 Charles

I wonder — if there were no end of life provisions in the bill, would the GOP be screaming “Obamacare doesn’t even care about old people”?

Sadly, there as just as many people who know with rock solid conviction that the current president and party in power can do no right as those who know he can do no wrong. Both sets individually and together drown out rational discourse far too often, and to the detriment of us all.

130

ladycatnip Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:59:14pm

Five freedoms you’ll lose in health care reform

A close reading of the two main bills, one backed by Democrats in the House and the other issued by Sen. Edward Kennedy’s Health committee, contradict the President’s assurances. To be sure, it isn’t easy to comb through their 2,000 pages of tortured legal language. But page by page, the bills reveal a web of restrictions, fines, and mandates that would radically change your health-care coverage.
If you prize choosing your own cardiologist or urologist under your company’s Preferred Provider Organization plan (PPO), if your employer rewards your non-smoking, healthy lifestyle with reduced premiums, if you love the bargain Health Savings Account (HSA) that insures you just for the essentials, or if you simply take comfort in the freedom to spend your own money for a policy that covers the newest drugs and diagnostic tests — you may be shocked to learn that you could lose all of those good things under the rules proposed in the two bills that herald a health-care revolution

When this author says tortured legal language, he’s absolutely correct. I’ve waded through hundreds of pages of this and can barely figure out what it’s REALLY saying. But I know this - if you know the history of a person, their associaties and friends, their ideology, and what drives them, you’ll know what’s behind all the legalese b.s. in this bill, which boils down to someone else making your health decisions for you.

Obama SAID himself back in ‘93 he wants a single payer plan, but that it would take time to implement. Videos of other liberal lawmakers say exactly the same thing, so for those here that are saying conservatives have blown this out of proportion and are creating fear and hysteria over this, I say, fine, if you want to turn over your freedom of choice to a socialistic government health care plan, do it, but leave me out.

I love my doctors, my specialists, and my freedom to choose.

131

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:59:50pm

re: #95 MandyManners

Why allow the government to do so?

Government already does Mandy. UNOS was created by congress

[Link: www.unos.org…]

132

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:59:52pm

re: #112 Alouette

promoting and rewarding social usefulness

Death Panels for the unemployed?

I wouldn’t go that far.

133

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:00:10pm

re: #108 DaddyG

OT-

Man guilty of groping Minnie Mouse

Next they can go after that duck that’s been running around the park with no pants and a sailor cap.

Cinderella hit on me once - long, long, ago in Disney World, right outside King Stephan’s Castle. We had an enjoyable conversation but that was it.

134

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:00:15pm

re: #115 wee fury

No.

Thank you.

135

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:00:16pm

re: #82 Cato the Elder

Please stop.

136

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:00:27pm

re: #109 Dianna

I don’t agree. I think there’s a tendency to grab a sound bite and blow it up. I’m tired of it. I’m tired of people continuing to make hay from irrelevancies, and I am tired of demonization.

Which seems to be the tactics of both Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh.

Our only defense against this is to advertise their lies and refute them until they are no longer believed. To the lesser extent, or when the lies become habitual, we have a responsibility to point out the people that are consistently wrong so that the default is not believe them.

137

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:00:37pm

re: #118 keithgabryelski

Do you have any reason to suspect that specific counseling is a requirement for any health care?

I’d read it here the other day.

138

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:00:42pm

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

It’s true of any medical plan, if a doctor orders some sort of treatment, such as end of life counseling, and you refuse, then you could be dropped from the plan.

I call bull shit on that one Walter, could I get a link that it’s mandatory and you could be dropped ?

139

SurferDoc Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:00:56pm

re: #128 MandyManners

As long as it’s voluntary, I have no problem with it.

In the hands of government bureaucrats, “voluntary’ has an odd way of turning into ‘mandatory’.

140

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:01:16pm

re: #99 medaura18586

You’re not a very kind person, but I guess you don’t really care about that. What’s wrong with people “doing it themselves” without a mandate from the government? Because people won’t.

Screw all those folks who devote their lives to others, like Eunice Kennedy Shriver and all her sniveling, self-righteous ilk, right?

My goodness.

141

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:01:16pm

If you aren’t an organ donor here’s something to read

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

142

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:01:25pm

143

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:01:37pm

re: #113 Shiplord Kirel

One of the coolest things about the Barringer Crater is that it remains privately owned, by the Barringer family. This is why it is not a national monument, which requires federal ownership. It is a national natural landmark, however.

It is owned by the Barringer Crater Company and is leased by Meteor Crater Enterprises Inc.

144

American Sabra Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:01:41pm

Dang really put a damper on that good mood. I’ll bbl.

145

Maui Girl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:02:01pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

I’m not a big fan of O”Reilly and was doing something else when the program came on. Sometimes there’s good information, sometimes not but to totally dismiss the information because you don’t like the source is just limiting yourself. Kind of like watching Glenn Beck.

146

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:02:14pm

re: #131 Thanos

Government already does Mandy. UNOS was created by congress

[Link: www.unos.org…]

I’m aware of that. Will UNOS stay as it is?

147

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:02:17pm

re: #125 Dianna

Please stop it. It won’t do a damned bit of good.

You could remind him he referred to the Queen Mother as the “non plus ultra” of class. Maybe that would make him pause in his arrogance, but one does doubt it.

Hint: he meant “ne plus ultra.”

LOL.

Just like you meant “I couldn’t care less” in your post above?

Your self-appointment as the arbiter of taste and decorum here becomes you less than you think.

148

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:02:53pm

re: #142 buzzsawmonkey

Taking Cinderella on a long weekend is very thrifty. She always travels coach.

I shouda thought of that-

149

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:03:19pm

re: #99 medaura18586

I would take issue with your characterization of sets of belief. The same longing for God produces religions such as Objectivism, and the impenetrable smug conceit of our Universities.
Different names—same disease.
Independent rational thought is just as hard to come by among atheists as it is among the religious.

150

KingKenrod Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:03:31pm

Does anyone know if the current bill(s) being debated in Congress do anything to prohibit cash payment for health services? In other words, can health services only be obtained through an insurance policy?

151

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:03:36pm

re: #147 Cato the Elder

You’re the one who claims that role.

Carry on.

152

wee fury Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:03:47pm

re: #141 Thanos

If you aren’t an organ donor here’s something to read

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

Link says I have to register. I won’t. But — in a nutshell, can you type what the article says?

153

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:03:55pm

re: #129 Coracle

Sadly, there as just as many people who know with rock solid conviction that the current president and party in power can do no right as those who know he can do no wrong. Both sets individually and together drown out rational discourse far too often, and to the detriment of us all.

BO is a fake…he has nothing to stimulate the economy, in fact just the opposite…he has embraced terrorist states an dumped in Israel…both foreign and domestic policy is a disaster so far imo…this health care fiasco is just another piece of fantasy…buying votes, taxing the workers and spreading the wealth around according to the Alinsky model…deny it all you want

154

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:04:01pm

re: #150 KingKenrod

Does anyone know if the current bill(s) being debated in Congress do anything to prohibit cash payment for health services? In other words, can health services only be obtained through an insurance policy?

Good question.

155

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:04:09pm

re: #145 Maui Girl

There are so many distortions and lies coming out of fox news that I really don’t even consider them worth fact checking.

156

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:04:11pm

re: #138 avanti

I call bull shit on that one Walter, could I get a link that it’s mandatory and you could be dropped ?

I never said there was any language in the proposal like that, so slow down. I said just like in private health care insurance, if you don’t follow doctors orders, you can be dropped from the plan.

There is a whole section on doctors orders.

Have you read this proposal?

157

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:04:38pm

re: #143 Walter L. Newton

It is owned by the Barringer Crater Company and is leased by Meteor Crater Enterprises Inc.

cool old geo relic

158

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:04:54pm

re: #152 wee fury

Link says I have to register. I won’t. But — in a nutshell, can you type what the article says?

Basically it goes over how many people die due to lack of kidneys - altruism in this case is not enough. Sorry for the reg only link

159

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:04:59pm

re: #141 Thanos

If you aren’t an organ donor here’s something to read

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

I’m a donor and if The Kid were to be in a fatal accident, I’d donate his organs.

160

Pianobuff Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:05:07pm

re: #39 dwells38

Palin’s statement from Aug 7th didn’t say anything about the end of life counseling and only a passing reference to anything like euthanasia.

She seemed mostly concerned about the need to ration care which could lead to the government/physician panel needing to use a QALY type method of determining who gets treated like is used in the UK.

Hyperbole of her statement aside, that’s how I’ve read this ever since it came out, but I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder. Are there any statements that would indicate Palin is talking about end-of-life counseling vs. QALY/Comparative Effectiveness stuff? I’d sure like to see them, especially if I’m wrong on this… well if I’m right too.

161

Dolphin Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:05:17pm

re: #42 Thanos

Here’s a link to the PDF of the draft bill that’s before committees, it will take a minute to load

[Link: frwebgate.access.gpo.gov…]

Can you (or anyone, for that matter) tell me what is the difference between that one and this link..

[Link: docs.house.gov…]

The first link has 1017 pages and the 2nd one has 1018. I am going to start reading it and want to make sure I have the real thing.

162

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:05:45pm

Today 70,000 Americans are waiting for kidneys, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing, which maintains the national waiting list. Last year, roughly 16,000 people received one (about 40 percent are from living donors, the others from cadavers). More are waiting for livers, hearts and lungs, which mostly come from deceased donors, bringing the total to about 92,000. In big cities, where the ratio of acceptable organs to needy patients is worst, the wait is five to eight years and is expected to double by 2010. Someone on the organ list dies every 90 minutes. Tick. Tick. Tick.
Until my donor came forward, I was desperate. I had been on the list only for a year and was about to start dialysis. I had joined a Web site, MatchingDonors.com, and found a man willing to give me one of his kidneys, but he fell through. I wished for a Sears organ catalog so I could find a well-matched kidney and send in my check. I wondered about going overseas to become a “transplant tourist,” but getting a black market organ seemed too risky.

163

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:06:30pm

re: #161 Dolphin

Can you (or anyone, for that matter) tell me what is the difference between that one and this link..

[Link: docs.house.gov…]

The first link has 1017 pages and the 2nd one has 1018. I am going to start reading it and want to make sure I have the real thing.

Not sure, but I would wager the one with the extra page is the most current

164

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:06:54pm

It was the late, great Gene Shoemaker who conclusively proved the meteoritic origin of the Barringer Crater. It had been called “meteor crater” since the 19th century because of its resemblance to the craters of the Moon but old school geologists held out against this view until Gene found the tell-tale mineral coesite and (more particularly) Stishovite at the crater in 1960. This was part of the esearch for his PhD.

165

wee fury Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:04pm

re: #158 Thanos

Thanks.

166

turn Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:14pm

re: #9 haakondahl

I get to go meet a lizard or two this evening.

Who?

167

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:20pm

re: #151 Dianna

You’re the one who claims that role.

Carry on.

No. I claim the mantle of intellectual honesty. And calling liars liars.

re: #135 Dianna

Please stop.

Stop what? Whalin’ on Palin? When she’s no longer in the news with her lies.

Beatin’ on Ben? Already finished.

168

sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:20pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

There are so many distortions and lies coming out of fox news that I really don’t even consider them worth fact checking.

Yet you regularly link to something from HuffPo and/ or KOS

169

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:28pm

Palin is nothing more than a fear mongering demagogue. Her calls for town hall people to show restraint are the ultimate in hypocrisy. She fabricates lies to intentionally whip the gullible into a frenzy and then poses like she is a voice of level headed moderation.

I shall rebut her with herself…

“Out of respect for the American soldier, stop making things up.”

In fact let me say this even more strongly.

She is a completely self serving, creationist, populist, anti-intellectual, ignorant twit. She couldn’t answer the most basic questions about things like history or how the government works etc… She was only catapulted into public view because she is a moderately attractive woman who was cravenly promoted as a counter to Hillary. So let’s be really clear, Sarah’s qualifications are that she owns a vagina - not that she has a brain, or personal courage, or an urge to serve others than herself.

I really hate Obama, however, the thought of her being vice president is even more disturbing to me.

170

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:31pm

Let’s say that The Kid was in an accident and damaged both kidneys. Under this law, would my sister be allowed to donate one to him and it would it be covered? If not, would I be allowed to pay for the operations?

171

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:38pm

re: #130 ladycatnip

u.

Obama SAID himself back in ‘93 he wants a single payer plan, but that it would take time to implement.

I’ve seen this trucked out quite a bit. Back in 1993 I wanted a black Chevy Blazer to do field work in. Not so much now. Thoughts change and evolve. Do you think the same way now as you did in 1993 on every subject of importance to you? That every solution you thought was best/realistic/workable in 1993 is still best/realistic/workable?

172

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:45pm

re: #150 KingKenrod

Does anyone know if the current bill(s) being debated in Congress do anything to prohibit cash payment for health services? In other words, can health services only be obtained through an insurance policy?

I can’t find anything using that language. You may want to read sections 241 through 246 for possible details on those options.

173

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:07:58pm

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

I never said there was any language in the proposal like that, so slow down. I said just like in private health care insurance, if you don’t follow doctors orders, you can be dropped from the plan.

There is a whole section on doctors orders.

Have you read this proposal?

I read the section on end of life counseling and I don’t see how you could be dropped for not going since it’s clearly voluntary. If the doctor can’t order you to go, how can you be dropped for not going.

174

SixDegrees Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:08:05pm

re: #67 iLikeCandy

To me, “purely voluntary” means “not unless the patient requests one.”

I have to disagree with the author on his line of reasoning here. My doctor routinely offers advice that I haven’t asked for - it’s part of his job, and indeed it’s part of what I expect from a doctor. He’s the expert, after all, and is supposed to be keeping abreast of the latest treatment options and other pertinent information regarding my care - not me. It’s his job to keep me informed.

Also, I don’t have a problem making citizens at large aware of the options and pitfalls involved with end of life planning. It’s something that everyone needs to think hard about and take action on - even if that action means making a conscious decision to do nothing. The saddest and most horrifying example of what happens if you neglect this important step, even at a young age, is the Schiavo case, where a few minutes with an attorney would have headed off years and years of heartbreaking anguish and suffering for all involved.

That said, I don’t believe the counseling itself should be offered by the government. That is strictly up to the patient. Providing the information that such things are important, along with an overview of steps that ought to be taken, are good pieces of information to pass along in order to get someone who’s interested started in the (mostly legal) procedures that needs to be put in place to ensure an outcome to the patient’s liking. Drafting a will, having both legal and medical powers of attorney drawn up, committing a statement of what sorts of treatment will be accepted and refused if the patient is unable to respond, and so forth, are all important things that need to be done, and whose implementation varies from state to state, depending on local laws, as well as from individual to individual. By all means, remind someone of how important such planning is, make sure they get a brochure going over the basics - but leave it up to them to pursue implementation.

175

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:08:22pm

Organ Donor

176

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:08:23pm

re: #157 albusteve

cool old geo relic

I have a piece of it here, the iron meteorite that is.

177

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:08:26pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

Your intellectual honesty may (in your eyes, anyway) be impeccable.

Carry on.

178

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:08:36pm

Charles, please don’t watch Beck today, please…

179

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:08:44pm

re: #170 MandyManners

Let’s say that The Kid was in an accident and damaged both kidneys. Under this law, would my sister be allowed to donate one to him and it would it be covered? If not, would I be allowed to pay for the operations?

Yes I believe it would be allowed, the problem might be compatibility

180

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:08:47pm

re: #137 MandyManners

I’d read it here the other day.

The answer to your question is NO. This bill does not provides any dependencies on providing health care if you decide to or not accept the counseling (except for the counseling itself).

181

wrenchwench Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:09:35pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

You left out that she was governor of Alaska. Does that count for nothing?

182

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:09:36pm

re: #153 albusteve

BO is a fake…he has nothing to stimulate the economy, in fact just the opposite…he has embraced terrorist states an dumped in Israel…both foreign and domestic policy is a disaster so far imo…this health care fiasco is just another piece of fantasy…buying votes, taxing the workers and spreading the wealth around according to the Alinsky model…deny it all you want

Case in point.

183

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:09:41pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

Beatin’ on Ben? Already finished.

Probably the closest you’ve gotten to a real fight.

184

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:09:41pm

Shazbot. Got disconnected there.

re: #104 medaura18586

Re-posted from a dead thread. Thought this one needed the controversy.

After all, these dull medical something-or-other threads rarely go past #170.

185

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:09:43pm

re: #168 sattv4u2

Yet you regularly link to something from HuffPo and/ or KOS

It’s very sad that the left wing blogs are a more reliable source of information than FOX news.

186

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:09:48pm

re: #179 Thanos

Yes I believe it would be allowed, the problem might be compatibility

whoops missed this law. I don’t see anything in it however that limits individual donor-recipient agreements.

187

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:09:51pm

re: #178 avanti

Charles, please don’t watch Beck today, please…

Oh, no.

Is it that bad?

188

Maui Girl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:09:51pm

re: #117 SixDegrees

It was information provided by one of OReilly’s guests. He wasn’t promoting it. You should have watched the program before making such an extensive statement.

189

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:10:02pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

Yep.

190

karmic_inquisitor Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:10:06pm

re: #140 American Sabra

You’re not a very kind person, but I guess you don’t really care about that. What’s wrong with people “doing it themselves” without a mandate from the government? Because people won’t.

Screw all those folks who devote their lives to others, like Eunice Kennedy Shriver and all her sniveling, self-righteous ilk, right?

My goodness.

My goodness is right.

Because that is often what motivates suffocating, paternalistic “altruism” - “My Goodness”

As in “I am such a good person. Look at me. I Care.”

As in Shriver’s case, there is a family fortune and connections that allows one to live much like American Royalty. It allows one freedom to do whatever one wants. Fine for them.

But when that freedom starts to take the shape of limiting the freedom of others by making choices for them in the name of what is best for them, that is where I say “shove it.” And using altruism as a moral defense for what is essentially coercion (or even oppression) is not a defense. Even when such paternalism is supposedly “morally” justified.

I am tired of Liberals protesting the fact that Conservative Moralists try to run people’s lives “for their own good” when the Left’s glitteratti do precisely the same damned thing.

I welcome neither effort.

191

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:10:44pm

re: #173 avanti

I read the section on end of life counseling and I don’t see how you could be dropped for not going since it’s clearly voluntary. If the doctor can’t order you to go, how can you be dropped for not going.

Sorry, it appears from my reading that the doctor can order it, as part of a preventive health care program. At what point is your participation in that voluntary and at what point, after you volunteer for this sort of counseling, at what point are you required to carry through, that’s the rub.

Er, there isn’t a section on end of life counseling, it is scattered through 200 pages of material.

192

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:10:46pm

re: #108 DaddyG

OT-

Man guilty of groping Minnie Mouse

Next they can go after that duck that’s been running around the park with no pants and a sailor cap.

Turnabout is fair play?

193

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:10:48pm

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

I have a piece of it here, the iron meteorite that is.

ha!…I shoulda known…I visited the place back in the 70’s…really quite an astounding feature when you consider the near perfect natural configuration

194

opnion Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:11:03pm

What is true is there will most certainly be rationing under Obama Care.
You can’t add the additional people that he wants to & not.
In essence there will bee triage, those who would be most deserving of care based on criteria, the second tier & then those who will get pain meds & no viable treatment.
It goes on in Scandinavia & our friends to the North among others.
The government will be picking winners & losers & some will have a “duty to die.” To deny that is dishonest.

195

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:11:07pm

re: #143 Walter L. Newton

It is owned by the Barringer Crater Company and is leased by Meteor Crater Enterprises Inc.

The Barringer Crater Company is wholly owned by the family, specifically the fourth generation of Barringer’s descendants.

196

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:11:07pm

re: #125 Dianna

Please stop it. It won’t do a damned bit of good.

You could remind him he referred to the Queen Mother as the “non plus ultra” of class. Maybe that would make him pause in his arrogance, but one does doubt it.

Hint: he meant “ne plus ultra.”

Cato is a Royalist?

197

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:11:15pm

198

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:11:28pm

re: #181 wrenchwench

You left out that she was governor of Alaska. Does that count for nothing?

Yes a post that she abandoned because she is greedy and reckless enough to think that she can make a bigger play for power in the lower 48.

She herself made it count for nothing.

199

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:11:31pm

re: #185 Killgore Trout

It’s very sad that the left wing blogs are a more reliable source of information than FOX news.

I’m so sad I am in tears.

200

sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:11:36pm

re: #171 Coracle

I’ve seen this trucked out quite a bit. Back in 1993 I wanted a black Chevy Blazer to do field work in. Not so much now. Thoughts change and evolve. Do you think the same way now as you did in 1993 on every subject of importance to you? That every solution you thought was best/realistic/workable in 1993 is still best/realistic/workable?

he also stated it in 2007 and 2009

Youtube Video

201

Racer X Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:11:54pm

re: #185 Killgore Trout

It’s very sad that the left wing blogs are a more reliable source of information than FOX news.

Heh. Gold nugget in a pile of crap.

Yet when there is a crap nugget in a pile of truth, the rest gets ignored.

202

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:12:01pm

re: #182 Coracle

Case in point.

show me the beef…I’m an open minded conservative

203

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:12:21pm

re: #196 haakondahl

Cato is a Royalist?

no just royal

204

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:12:47pm

re: #171 Coracle

I’ve seen this trucked out quite a bit. Back in 1993 I wanted a black Chevy Blazer to do field work in. Not so much now. Thoughts change and evolve. Do you think the same way now as you did in 1993 on every subject of importance to you? That every solution you thought was best/realistic/workable in 1993 is still best/realistic/workable?

I wish Obama was showing signs of maturing in his thinking or moderating his more liberal views. He seems to be determined to get that “1993 Blazer” no matter what the cost to the economy or freedom of choice.

As a Government worker I believe that the state should be the supplier of last choice. The problems with the industry stem from too much regulation and I don’t see the state takover helping things.

205

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:12:50pm

re: #196 haakondahl

Not so far as I know.

206

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:12:52pm

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes a post that she abandoned because she is greedy and reckless enough to think that she can make a bigger play for power in the lower 48.

She herself made it count for nothing.

Or, maybe because she couldn’t pay the $500,000.00 in legal fees to defend herself against nutty suits.

207

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:12:53pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

Palin is nothing more than a fear mongering demagogue. Her calls for town hall people to show restraint are the ultimate in hypocrisy. She fabricates lies to intentionally whip the gullible into a frenzy and then poses like she is a voice of level headed moderation.

I shall rebut her with herself…

“Out of respect for the American soldier, stop making things up.”

In fact let me say this even more strongly.

She is a completely self serving, creationist, populist, anti-intellectual, ignorant twit. She couldn’t answer the most basic questions about things like history or how the government works etc… She was only catapulted into public view because she is a moderately attractive woman who was cravenly promoted as a counter to Hillary. So let’s be really clear, Sarah’s qualifications are that she owns a vagina - not that she has a brain, or personal courage, or an urge to serve others than herself.

I really hate Obama, however, the thought of her being vice president is even more disturbing to me.

Really? She is the Governor of one of the Fifty States. Do you think she fucked her way to the top?

Your critique of her is lacking substance and vile in its sexism.

208

wrenchwench Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:12:58pm

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes a post that she abandoned because she is greedy and reckless enough to think that she can make a bigger play for power in the lower 48.

She herself made it count for nothing.

Fair enough.

209

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:13:10pm

re: #195 Shiplord Kirel

The Barringer Crater Company is wholly owned by the family, specifically the fourth generation of Barringer’s descendants.

Yes, and they lease the running of the place to Meteor Crater Enterprises Inc. I’ve got the information right here in my hand. I am a meteorite collector and I sort of have some knowledge of this.

210

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:13:28pm

re: #191 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, it appears from my reading that the doctor can order it, as part of a preventive health care program. At what point is your participation in that voluntary and at what point, after you volunteer for this sort of counseling, at what point are you required to carry through, that’s the rub.

Er, there isn’t a section on end of life counseling, it is scattered through 200 pages of material.

So, it can be mandated?

211

Maui Girl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:13:40pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

If you don’t take the time to fact check, how do you know they’re distortions and lies?

212

Mikey_Dallas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:13:43pm

Let’s discuss euthanasia…

The proposed bill contains nothing about it. You can search the text of the bill and not find it.

But the bill’s provisions are similar to those in Canada and Europe about relying on scoring different treatments and disallowing ones that don’t meet certain cost/benefit metrics.

QALY (Quality Adjusted Life Years) / QARY (Quality Adjusted Remaining Years) are terms that deal directly with this concept. They deal with measuring how much additional lifetime a particular person would gain from a particular procedure or drug, and also take into account some measurement of the “quality” of that life. It puts into dollars and cents what is essentially what it is worth to society to treat someone with a serious illness.

Example: You have cancer, and need a certain drug to combat it. The drug is very, very expensive, and for a small percentage of the people who take it, their cancer goes into remission, but it’s maybe 2% of the people. Nobody knows if this particular person will be helped or not by the drug, but the QARY analysis says the cost per average year of gained life (the average over the whole 100%, not the 2% who gain a long time) says the cost of treatment is $5000 per QARY. The cutoff for treatment is $4000 per QARY.

So this person doesn’t get the drug that might give them many more years, or might not give them anything more. But they don’t get it and can’t get it. Basically this person has no further options and will certainly die shortly.

No, it is not euthanasia, which would be actively taking steps to end the person’s life. But it is a death sentence for that person, who MIGHT have been able to have many years left.

QARY / QALY analysis is very much in line with what is promoted for cost reduction by the House plan. Something like that is probably what would come out of this plan.

If it’s not exactly that, then it would be something close, because the plan relies on some type of determination of cost / benefit. I don’t think that is in dispute.

So when this man who’s son has cerebral palsey and cancer wants to know what the House plan will do to his son - one of these angry people at a Michigan town hall meeting - it’s a legitimate question. When an elderly person with heart disease wants to know what this plan will do regarding their treatment - it’s a legitimate question.

The people who characterize this as “euthanasia” are wrong, by definition of the word. But the people who imply that such type of decisions won’t be made - that people won’t be told that their option is just to give up and let go - are just as wrong, too, and they avoid being honest about it.

It would be nice if everyone would just be honest about what this stuff all means, so that the debate would be about that.

213

FrogMarch Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:14:02pm

True story. I know a guy who lives on Maui. He’s probably in his upper 50s maybe 60? Anyhow, he needed a new liver and waited for a few months but he got one.
He drank and ate too much. (why he needed it)

214

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:14:03pm

re: #142 buzzsawmonkey

Taking Cinderella on a long weekend is very thrifty. She always travels coach.

And she’ll swoon for a damned shoe. Cheap date.

215

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:14:23pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

Just in case your sexist rant gets deleted, I’ll repeat my response without quoting.

Really? She is the Governor of one of the Fifty States. Do you think she fucked her way to the top?

Your critique of her is lacking substance and vile in its sexism.

216

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:14:25pm

re: #192 haakondahl

Turnabout is fair play?

I had an embarrassing moment with a chipmunk in the Contemporary Resort.

217

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:14:48pm

re: #187 Dianna

Oh, no.

Is it that bad?

We’ll have Nazi posters compared to Obamacare for example, some crying, the whole deal. I only feel sorry for the guy because he is truly terrified I think. Now defending Palin’s death panel.

218

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:15:12pm

re: #206 MandyManners

Or, maybe because she couldn’t pay the $500,000.00 in legal fees to defend herself against nutty suits.

Hmmm… somehow every other governor gets hit with all sorts of legal problems… She is the first one I know of who just couldn’t find a way.

219

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:15:22pm

re: #210 MandyManners

So, it can be mandated?

No, not if you don’t participate in certain programs that are available. And remember, these are programs that are currently used in Medicare or Medicaid.

220

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:15:48pm

221

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:15:48pm

re: #211 Maui Girl

If you don’t take the time to fact check, how do you know they’re distortions and lies?

Fox news is not worth the effort

222

sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:15:51pm

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes a post that she abandoned because she ~~is greedy and reckless enough to think that she can make a bigger play for power in the lower 48.~~ has almost ONE MILLION dollars in lawyers fees hanging over her and her families head that you would want her to pay back mon her, what, $50,000 per year governors salary instead of hitting the lecture circuiot at $15-20,000 a pop! ?
~~She herself made it count for nothing.~~

~~I’d abandon my “post” also for the welfare of my family!~~

223

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:16:01pm

re: #216 legalpad

I had an embarrassing moment with a chipmunk in the Contemporary Resort.

Chip or Dale?

224

FrogMarch Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:16:07pm

re: #51 sattv4u2

Tax the future. print more money. These are all wonderful ideas!

225

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:16:15pm

re: #159 MandyManners

I’m a donor and if The Kid were to be in a fatal accident, I’d donate his organs.

Sounds like you’ve come close a couple of times already.

226

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:17:08pm

re: #214 haakondahl

And she’ll swoon for a damned shoe. Cheap date.

…but now Cinderella is married she’s a Charming wife.

227

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:17:09pm

re: #217 avanti

We’ll have Nazi posters compared to Obamacare for example, some crying, the whole deal. I only feel sorry for the guy because he is truly terrified I think. Now defending Palin’s death panel.

I think that KT and Charles and some others regard Beck as the perfect example of “point and laugh”.

I haven’t had the TV on in months, so I’m not sure. I’ve howled over a couple of the videos that have been linked.

228

Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:17:50pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

Stop what? Whalin’ on Palin? When she’s no longer in the news with her lies.

Beatin’ on Ben? Already finished.

You value intellectual honesty so much, then you shouldn’t mind if I call you an asshole.

229

Pianobuff Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:18:12pm

re: #212 Mikey_Dallas

Let’s discuss euthanasia…

The proposed bill contains nothing about it. You can search the text of the bill and not find it.

But the bill’s provisions are similar to those in Canada and Europe about relying on scoring different treatments and disallowing ones that don’t meet certain cost/benefit metrics.

QALY (Quality Adjusted Life Years) / QARY (Quality Adjusted Remaining Years) are terms that deal directly with this concept. They deal with measuring how much additional lifetime a particular person would gain from a particular procedure or drug, and also take into account some measurement of the “quality” of that life. It puts into dollars and cents what is essentially what it is worth to society to treat someone with a serious illness.

Example: You have cancer, and need a certain drug to combat it. The drug is very, very expensive, and for a small percentage of the people who take it, their cancer goes into remission, but it’s maybe 2% of the people. Nobody knows if this particular person will be helped or not by the drug, but the QARY analysis says the cost per average year of gained life (the average over the whole 100%, not the 2% who gain a long time) says the cost of treatment is $5000 per QARY. The cutoff for treatment is $4000 per QARY.

So this person doesn’t get the drug that might give them many more years, or might not give them anything more. But they don’t get it and can’t get it. Basically this person has no further options and will certainly die shortly.

No, it is not euthanasia, which would be actively taking steps to end the person’s life. But it is a death sentence for that person, who MIGHT have been able to have many years left.

QARY / QALY analysis is very much in line with what is promoted for cost reduction by the House plan. Something like that is probably what would come out of this plan.

If it’s not exactly that, then it would be something close, because the plan relies on some type of determination of cost / benefit. I don’t think that is in dispute.

So when this man who’s son has cerebral palsey and cancer wants to know what the House plan will do to his son - one of these angry people at a Michigan town hall meeting - it’s a legitimate question. When an elderly person with heart disease wants to know what this plan will do regarding their treatment - it’s a legitimate question.

The people who characterize this as “euthanasia” are wrong, by definition of the word. But the people who imply that such type of decisions won’t be made - that people won’t be told that their option is just to give up and let go - are just as wrong, too, and they avoid being honest about it.

It would be nice if everyone would just be honest about what this stuff all means, so that the debate would be about that.

Thank you for that post.

230

sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:18:35pm

re: #228 Alouette

You value intellectual honesty so much, then you shouldn’t mind if I call you an asshole.

Thats an insult to assholes!

just sayin!

231

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:18:43pm

re: #218 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm… somehow every other governor gets hit with all sorts of legal problems… She is the first one I know of who just couldn’t find a way.

Maybe they were rich before they took office.

232

FullRoller Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:18:49pm

You know, Sarah Palin did not use the work “euthanasia”. No one on the conservative side used the word that I can find. This term was first used by supporters of the bill, and the mainstream media in order to make Gov Palin’s statement sound worse than it was.

233

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:19:12pm

re: #219 Walter L. Newton

No, not if you don’t participate in certain programs that are available. And remember, these are programs that are currently used in Medicare or Medicaid.

I’m so confused.

234

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:19:14pm

re: #227 Dianna

I think that KT and Charles and some others regard Beck as the perfect example of “point and laugh”.

I haven’t had the TV on in months, so I’m not sure. I’ve howled over a couple of the videos that have been linked.

I’ve seen him once.

The topics he covered did interest me - mainly pulled off conservative blogs.

But he really is the most intolerable buffoon that I have possible EVER seen on tv.

And that includes Olbermann.

I don’t understand why he was liked on when he was on CNN.

235

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:19:18pm

re: #171 Coracle

I’ve seen this trucked out quite a bit. Back in 1993 I wanted a black Chevy Blazer to do field work in. Not so much now. Thoughts change and evolve. Do you think the same way now as you did in 1993 on every subject of importance to you? That every solution you thought was best/realistic/workable in 1993 is still best/realistic/workable?

It’s not open-and-shut, but it’s a damned good bet.

236

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:19:28pm

re: #212 Mikey_Dallas

…QALY (Quality Adjusted Life Years) / QARY (Quality Adjusted Remaining Years) are terms that deal directly with this concept…

And where do those terms appear in the proposals?

QARY / QALY analysis is very much in line with what is promoted for cost reduction by the House plan. Something like that is probably what would come out of this plan.

Where does this cost reduction, tied to QARY/QALY, appear in the proposed bill?

It would be nice if everyone would just be honest about what this stuff all means, so that the debate would be about that.

It would be nice if you pointed out page and section numbers in the proposal so we can follow along with what you are claiming.

Have you read the proposal?

237

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:19:45pm

re: #200 sattv4u2

he also stated it in 2007 and 2009

[Video]

That Vid does not show Obama talking single payer in either 2007 or 2009. I wonder what the rest of the sentence from 2007 was after “15 or 20 years out”. It does caption a speech as from 2003. I don’t see how a willingness to compromise or evolve thinking on single payer should be a negative.

238

turn Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:19:51pm

re: #212 Mikey_Dallas

Wow, that was informative. Thanks.

239

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:19:59pm

re: #227 Dianna

I think that KT and Charles and some others regard Beck as the perfect example of “point and laugh”.

I haven’t had the TV on in months, so I’m not sure. I’ve howled over a couple of the videos that have been linked.

To be honest, at least the tears seemed honest when talking about his daughter, but then he lost me.

240

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:20:05pm

re: #225 haakondahl

Sounds like you’ve come close a couple of times already.

I was a minor at the time but, I would’ve wanted to donate.

241

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:20:14pm

re: #207 CyanSnowHawk

NO, I did not say that she fucked her way to the top. Not at all.

I said that the GOP powers that be, put her in place as a counter to Hillary, based solely on her gender, in the craven hope that the average American woman would vote for her based solely on her gender.

It is actually the GOP leadership who was being sexist by putting her into the campaign - not me for pointing out the slimy play.

I mean really, are there no GOP women who are smarter or more qualified than her? Were there no GOP women who actually know something about how history, foreign policy or the American government works? Were there no other GOP women who aren’t fear greedily ambitious, self serving, mongering, creationist, diva idiots?

242

sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:20:26pm

re: #218 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm… somehow every other governor gets hit with all sorts of legal problems… She is the first one I know of who just couldn’t find a way.

Please list all the governors that have been hit with all sorts of legal problems totalling anywhere NEAR 500K - 1 million

243

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:21:17pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote Vaginaist! /

244

ladycatnip Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:21:20pm

#171 Coracle

I’ve seen this trucked out quite a bit. Back in 1993 I wanted a black Chevy Blazer to do field work in. Not so much now. Thoughts change and evolve. Do you think the same way now as you did in 1993 on every subject of importance to you? That every solution you thought was best/realistic/workable in 1993 is still best/realistic/workable?

Big difference between buying a car you want or being a politician who is determined to foist his agenda on a whole lot of people. Obama hasn’t really changed at all, as far as I can see, and has gotten even more determined in his world view since then. Also don’t think this video of him is misleading either - he was very plain spoken on this topic. But, I have yet to meet a leftist who will ever stand by one of their statements even when it’s on tape - I didn’t say that! It’s been taken out of context! You misunderstood me! I didn’t mean that, what I meant was…!

245

LGoPs Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:21:23pm

re: #54 MandyManners

Czarny_Smok

If you want a glimpse into how ObamaCare will work (despite all the denials) take a look at Rahm Emanuel’s brother’s thinking at “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” by Govind Persad BS , Alan Wertheimer PhD , Ezekiel J Emanuel MD at The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009. The Good Dr. Emanuel is a healthcare advisor for The Bama.

“Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.”
And …

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

Survival of the Fittest? What I find most troubling about this debate is that while I acknowledge that decisions of this sort are probably made on a daily basis, there is a world of difference between individual, private decision making and institutionalizing it as government policy. Once that is done I fear a different, impersonal and potentially inhuman dynamic being put into motion with totally unpredictable results.
I’m reminded of the ‘banality of evil’ that I read about somewhere…

246

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:21:25pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

I really hate Obama, however, the thought of her being vice president is even more disturbing to me.

It’s so much more rational not to be defined by who we hate. I’m so much more interested in who is qualified. They could start by releasing their grades, military records, etc. It would be good if they knew that the language of Austria is German. The point is, Governor Palin is not, in fact outstanding in her shortcomings, considering most of congress and governorships.

247

medaura18586 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:21:26pm

re: #140 American Sabra

You’re not a very kind person, but I guess you don’t really care about that.

Screw all those folks who devote their lives to others, like Eunice Kennedy Shriver and all her sniveling, self-righteous ilk, right?

My goodness.

Yes, screw them. You can do as you wish with your life. Devote it to Others. Just don’t devote my life away, because it does not belong to you or to “Society” to collectively decide how to utilize best.

But you missed the point of my post. I have long resigned to the burden of having to subsidize all sorts of people throughout life who believe “Society” owes them this and that. But the way to do it is not through government run soup kitchens, it’s through food stamps or even better, non transferable debit cards toward food expenses; it’s not through a nationalized health-care one-size-fits-all government-run bureaucracy, but through debit cards for those who can’t afford health care and deregulated tax-exempt individualized private insurance for the rest.

What’s wrong with people “doing it themselves” without a mandate from the government? Because people won’t.

If people wouldn’t insure themselves even if they are provided the money to do so, then they don’t have a right to bitch or demand that everyone else be inconvenienced in order to accommodate their incompetence in taking care of themselves.

/You must think you’re such a better person than me, right? Go ahead. More than half of all this screeching and screaming is a futile exercise in feel-good self-righteousness. Oh, you care for the poor, oh, you devote your life to others. Spare me.

It’s telling that Eunice Kennedy Shriver is someone you look up to. Elitist princess spreads mob-connected prohibition-profiteering daddy’s wealth around. Evita, Princess Dianna. Mother Theresa. Nothing any of these people have done has substantiated helped people’s lives as much as it made them feel better about themselves to wear their virtue on their sleeves. Entrepreneurial activity in a market economy is what lifts people from poverty en masse.

My goodness. Just when I thought I hated Ayn Rand’s guts, I am reminded again and again that I have more in common with her than with the average person in the street or an internet forum.

248

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:22:03pm

re: #229 Pianobuff

Thank you for that post.

Ditto.

249

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:22:19pm

man, people take Palin waaay too seriously…good grief…no different than Rush and Beck and the rest…they are just talking heads, personalities…it’s not like she’s your friggin sister

250

Mikey_Dallas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:22:25pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

If you would be so kind as to read what I wrote…

“But the bill’s provisions are similar to those in Canada and Europe about relying on scoring different treatments and disallowing ones that don’t meet certain cost/benefit metrics.

QALY (Quality Adjusted Life Years) / QARY (Quality Adjusted Remaining Years) are terms that deal directly with this concept. “

The House plan relies on “finding and using the most cost effective” treatments. I am citing how OTHER countries that do the same thing do that, under the ASSUMPTION, reasonably so, that our government will have to come up with a similar quantitative measurement of effectiveness.

I’ve read the proposal. Have you?

251

SixDegrees Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:22:41pm

re: #188 Maui Girl

It was information provided by one of OReilly’s guests. He wasn’t promoting it. You should have watched the program before making such an extensive statement.

I stand by it completely. O’Reilly isn’t famous for being honest and objective. And I’ve looked into these allegations myself, as already noted, and haven’t found anything other than a wailing Greek chorus of sycophants backing them up yet.

252

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:22:42pm

re: #223 Kosh’s Shadow

Chip or Dale?

That was what was embarrassing. I couldn’t tell.

253

MandyManners Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:22:59pm

Dryer buzzer. bbiab

254

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:23:41pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

Palin is nothing more than a fear mongering demagogue. Her calls for town hall people to show restraint are the ultimate in hypocrisy. She fabricates lies to intentionally whip the gullible into a frenzy and then poses like she is a voice of level headed moderation.

I shall rebut her with herself…

“Out of respect for the American soldier, stop making things up.”

In fact let me say this even more strongly.

She is a completely self serving, creationist, populist, anti-intellectual, ignorant twit. She couldn’t answer the most basic questions about things like history or how the government works etc… She was only catapulted into public view because she is a moderately attractive woman who was cravenly promoted as a counter to Hillary. So let’s be really clear, Sarah’s qualifications are that she owns a vagina - not that she has a brain, or personal courage, or an urge to serve others than herself.

I really hate Obama, however, the thought of her being vice president is even more disturbing to me.

When medaura18586 made the same criticism, she at least phrased it better.

255

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:24:00pm

re: #250 Mikey_Dallas

If you would be so kind as to read what I wrote…

“But the bill’s provisions are similar to those in Canada and Europe about relying on scoring different treatments and disallowing ones that don’t meet certain cost/benefit metrics.

QALY (Quality Adjusted Life Years) / QARY (Quality Adjusted Remaining Years) are terms that deal directly with this concept. “

The House plan relies on “finding and using the most cost effective” treatments. I am citing how OTHER countries that do the same thing do that, under the ASSUMPTION, reasonably so, that our government will have to come up with a similar quantitative measurement of effectiveness.

I’ve read the proposal. Have you?

Yes, and I don’t see anything in the proposal that ties cost saving benefits to those kinds of metrics that you mentioned.

You are going on assumptions, assumptions that are not spelt out any where.

256

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:24:50pm

re: #212 Mikey_Dallas

Yes, but you misspelled “palsy”, so I’m afraid you’ll have to accept this Rice-a-Roni and go home. Thanks for playing, though.

257

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:25:16pm

re: #252 legalpad

That was what was embarrassing. I couldn’t tell.

Well, if it attacked, it wasn’t a Chip Monk

258

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:25:18pm

re: #249 albusteve

man, people take Palin waaay too seriously…good grief…no different than Rush and Beck and the rest…they are just talking heads, personalities…it’s not like she’s your friggin sister

This thread, like every thread around here, is a Palin thread.

259

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:25:23pm

re: #250 Mikey_Dallas

…The House plan relies on “finding and using the most cost effective” treatments…

And, you put “finding and using the most cost effective” in quotes above. Where is that quote from?

260

Racer X Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:25:38pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

Remove the word “Palin” from your post and insert “Obama”. Next remove the word “woman” and insert “black man”.

Hows it look now?

Judge people on their merit, not on their skin or gender.

261

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:25:45pm

If I am prescribed Viagra at an advanced age would that raise my quality adjusted remaining years?

262

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:25:57pm

re: #240 MandyManners

I was a minor at the time but, I would’ve wanted to donate.

Actually, I thought you had come close to donating his viscera a couple of times :-)

263

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:00pm

re: #257 Kosh’s Shadow

Well, if it attacked, it wasn’t a Chip Monk

It just felt around on me.

264

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:03pm

re: #215 CyanSnowHawk

Just in case your sexist rant gets deleted, I’ll repeat my response without quoting.

Really? She is the Governor of one of the Fifty States. Do you think she fucked her way to the top?

Your critique of her is lacking substance and vile in its sexism.

There is nothing sexist about pointing out the obvious play the GOP was making to counter the Dems. The Dems were making gender and race into an electoral selling point and the GOP countered with a soccer mom, who otherwise was unheard of, inexperienced, and unqualified - ahead of many others who would have done a much better job and were much better known. Anyone who denies that is what happened is blind to events

265

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:14pm

scrap the health plan and start over…begin with Medicare fraud, defensive medicine and tort reform…fix these problems then move onto the next

266

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:16pm

Well, aside from Mother Theresa part…

267

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:23pm

re: #260 Racer X

Remove the word “Palin” from your post and insert “Obama”. Next remove the word “woman” and insert “black man”.

Hows it look now?

Judge people on their merit, not on their skin or gender.

Ding da Ding Dong Ding!

268

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:28pm

re: #244 ladycatnip

#171 Coracle

Big difference between buying a car you want or being a politician who is determined to foist his agenda on a whole lot of people. Obama hasn’t really changed at all, as far as I can see, and has gotten even more determined in his world view since then.

I recognize and respect that difference of opinion, even though I disagree.

But, I have yet to meet a leftist who will ever stand by one of their statements even when it’s on tape

This is a generality that fits some members of both the left and right, and doesn’t help the discourse at all.

269

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:35pm

re: #258 haakondahl

This thread, like every thread around here, is a Palin thread.

Oh yeah?! Well take your Palin shovel and play in someone elses sand box! /

270

reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:49pm

re: #266 Ben Hur

Well, aside from Mother Theresa part…

Yes, me too.

271

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:55pm

re: #258 haakondahl

This thread, like every thread around here, is a Palin thread.

And until she’s running for an office again, and begins explaining positions, I don’t care about her.

I admit, though, that I’m fascinated by the reactions.

272

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:26:56pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Yes, and they lease the running of the place to Meteor Crater Enterprises Inc. I’ve got the information right here in my hand. I am a meteorite collector and I sort of have some knowledge of this.

Was I wrong at some point? Your tone suggests that you are contradicting me. Is that correct and, if so, where?

273

KenJen Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:27:05pm

re: #261 DaddyG

If I am prescribed Viagra at an advanced age would that raise my quality adjusted remaining years?

It would raise something.

274

JohnH Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:27:09pm

All of you Emily Litellas out there need to read what it was that Sarah Palin was talking about. It wasn’t euthansia. The whole conversation with the Georgia Senator was a conversation about nothing.

Oh. Never mind.

275

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:27:16pm

re: #250 Mikey_Dallas

And don’t get me wrong, I am TOTALLY against all the proposals in this document. But, I am not going to pass on opinion and information based on assumptions. I’ve seen enough of that among the “nuts” that are hanging silly conspiracy stuff all on this subject.

I want facts, references and links.

276

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:27:20pm

Palin was obviously speaking of a house bill version of the health care bill which had a death panel clause in it..

The others may not have that provision

277

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:27:43pm

re: #224 FrogMarch

Tax the future. print more money. These are all wonderful ideas!

“Tax the rich
Feed the poor
‘til there are no
rich no more”

—Ten Years After

278

wee fury Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:27:43pm

re: #261 DaddyG

If I am prescribed Viagra at an advanced age would that raise my quality adjusted remaining years?

In your advanced years … you might have a heart attack and your remaining years would be zero.

279

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:27:54pm

re: #246 legalpad

It’s so much more rational not to be defined by who we hate. I’m so much more interested in who is qualified. They could start by releasing their grades, military records, etc. It would be good if they knew that the language of Austria is German. The point is, Governor Palin is not, in fact outstanding in her shortcomings, considering most of congress and governorships.

You are so very correct. I promise that I do not define myself by who I hate. I was saying that the idea of Palin as president upsets and scares me more even than the idea of Obama as president - which is an astonishingly strong statement for me, since I really don’t like Obama.

280

sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:28:05pm

re: #237 Coracle

That Vid does not show Obama talking single payer in either 2007 or 2009. I wonder what the rest of the sentence from 2007 was after “15 or 20 years out”. It does caption a speech as from 2003. I don’t see how a willingness to compromise or evolve thinking on single payer should be a negative.

”,,, but I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employee coverage immediatly,,, there will potentially be a transmission problem,,,”

(starts at 42 seconds in)

OOoookkkaaayyy

281

lostlakehiker Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:28:11pm

re: #54 MandyManners

Czarny_Smok

If you want a glimpse into how ObamaCare will work (despite all the denials) take a look at Rahm Emanuel’s brother’s thinking at “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” by Govind Persad BS , Alan Wertheimer PhD , Ezekiel J Emanuel MD at The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009. The Good Dr. Emanuel is a healthcare advisor for The Bama.

“Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.”
And …

When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

Speaking as someone who’s not going to make that priority list, I have to agree with it. Battlefield surgeons employ triage, sorting patients into three categories: those who aren’t going to make it anyhow, those who will live with nothing but stopgap first aid for the time being, and those who may live if treated right now but will otherwise die. They treat only those in the third category, until that category is taken care of.

In the civilian world, the highest and best use for vaccines that are in limited supply is securing the lives of young adults. Younger children have a few more years of life before them, but young adults are just coming into their productive years and are more valuable and harder to replace than children. Old people have not so many years of life before them. Adults in their 30’s-50’s have a veteran immune system and are more likely to pull through without vaccination, if they do get sick. On top of all that, it is easier to protect children by closing schools than it is to protect young adults by closing work.

Because supply is limited, there also has to be some sort of system for deciding who gets a transplant. It could be who has the money to pay for it, which is a rough and ready proxy for social utility. It could be who is more likely to survive. But it shouldn’t be who has friends in high places.

If you don’t have some sort of priority system, you end up with a pull system, where the people who have the best connections get everything. For a few of us, that’s just dandy, but for most of us, it sucks. What’s worse, making “pull” the standard invites and rewards diversion of effort from productive work into bribery and politicking.

And slightly off topic, there ought to be a law against going to China to get a heart transplant. Those hearts don’t exactly come from cadavers. Some come from living prisoners who are kept in a sort of stable, awaiting the call that they are a match for a would-be recipient. Then their heart is removed on the operating table, and after that, well, they die.

282

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:28:24pm

re: #272 Shiplord Kirel

Was I wrong at some point? Your tone suggests that you are contradicting me. Is that correct and, if so, where?

I’m sorry, I thought you were correcting me. I think we are both correct. The family owns the crater and leases out the day to day running of it to some other folks.

283

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:28:24pm

re: #258 haakondahl

This thread, like every thread around here, is a Palin thread.

another shiny object…I could care less about her or her point of view…people LET themselves be influenced, hence the popularity of AmIdol politics…regurgitating Palin all day is part of the problem imo

284

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:28:46pm

re: #276 quiet man

Show me the language from the bill that has a “death panel” in it please

285

Lincolntf Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:28:47pm

re: #260 Racer X

Yup.
The most bitter, hateful and judgmental people I’ve ever met have all been Libs. They just refuse to recognize it in themselves.

286

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:07pm

re: #283 albusteve

another shiny object…I could care less about her or her point of view…people LET themselves be influenced, hence the popularity of AmIdol politics…regurgitating Palin all day is part of the problem imo

Like arguing about the planes?

287

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:07pm

re: #247 medaura18586

[…] My goodness. Just when I thought I hated Ayn Rand’s guts, I am reminded again and again that I have more in common with her than with the average person in the street or an internet forum.

You obviously need more practice. Why, I can hate Sarah Palin, Ayn Rand, fools on blogs (I’m not hinting at anyone in particular here, people, so don’t feel yourself flattered), Bill Maher, Mormons, drunken louts in the neighborhood, the weather, phony saints, sanctimonious sinners, Rush, Glenn, Ann, Mark, Chris, Keith, Larry, Moe, and Curly - all before my morning coffee.

It’s a matter of experience.

288

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:14pm

re: #278 wee fury

In your advanced years … you might have a heart attack and your remaining years would be zero.

What a way to go!

289

Mikey_Dallas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:23pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

So are you saying there won’t have to be any determination of who gets what? Everybody gets everything? They’re not going to tell a 90 year old man he doesn’t get a bypass? Is that what you’re trying to say?

If it’s not, if you admit the obvious that they are going to set standards, then go ahead, you have a different idea of how they’re going to do it? Lay it out.

If it’s not this way, it will be some other way that uses SOME method to determine who gets what. It will deny costly care to seriously ill elderly people, denying them any small chance of being in the group that gets several more years of life.

That’s the freakin point, Walter.

290

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:35pm

291

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:39pm

re: #285 Lincolntf

Yup.
The most bitter, hateful and judgmental people I’ve ever met have all been Libs. They just refuse to recognize it in themselves.

Progressives. They like to be called progressives, it sound so much softer than socialist.

292

SurferDoc Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:46pm

Palin will get you, my pretties. And your little dogs, too.

293

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:54pm

re: #284 Thanos

Sorry can’t.
There isnt any one bill..there are house and senate versions opf the bill..that is what McCaskel said.

I can no more show you the bill than you can me to support your own beliefs.

294

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:30:05pm

re: #277 haakondahl

“Tax the rich
Feed the poor
‘til there are no
rich no more”

—Ten Years After

TEN YEARS AFTER!
2pts easy

295

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:30:05pm

re: #279 LudwigVanQuixote

You are so very correct. I promise that I do not define myself by who I hate. I was saying that the idea of Palin as president upsets and scares me more even than the idea of Obama as president - which is an astonishingly strong statement for me, since I really don’t like Obama.

Glad to hear it. Neither one of them scares me. It’s all “life”, and we can take it.

296

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:30:13pm

re: #292 SurferDoc

One can only hope..

/grin

297

livefreeor die Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:30:17pm

re: #261 DaddyG

If I am prescribed Viagra at an advanced age would that raise my quality adjusted remaining years?

And what does it do to MommyG’s quality adjusted remaining years? There was a great video a few years ago, with a lot of older men hugging their wives and their wives glaring at the camera and saying sarcastically, “Thanks, Viagra.” It might have been SNL.

298

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:31:05pm

re: #287 Cato the Elder

You obviously need more practice. Why, I can hate …Mormons…

What’d I say? / ;-)

299

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:31:30pm

re: #280 sattv4u2

”,,, but I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employee coverage immediatly,,, there will potentially be a transmission problem,,,”

(starts at 42 seconds in)

OOoookkkaaayyy

That’s a specific reference to single payer? If so, I stand corrected on that point.

300

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:31:40pm

re: #263 legalpad

It just felt around on me.

Another sign it probably wasn’t a Chip Monk.
(I wish I could find the cartoon of a chipmunk in a monk’s robes)

301

ladycatnip Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:31:41pm

#237 Coracle

I don’t see how a willingness to compromise or evolve thinking on single payer should be a negative.

Really??

There is no compromise with a single payer system. Wait, let me rephraise that: WE would do the compromising by losing our freedom of choice.

302

Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:31:43pm

re: #232 FullRoller

You know, Sarah Palin did not use the work “euthanasia”. No one on the conservative side used the word that I can find. This term was first used by supporters of the bill, and the mainstream media in order to make Gov Palin’s statement sound worse than it was.

Because nobody knew what she meant by “death panel”.

The art of political lying lies mostly in implying.

303

HoosierHoops Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:31:47pm

re: #292 SurferDoc

Palin will get you, my pretties. And your little dogs, too.

SurferDoc! Nice seeing you.. If you don’t start posting more I’ll recommend you the the Death Panel…
/

304

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:31:53pm

re: #166 turn

Who?

Pvt Bin Jammin + 1, and potentially some other folks. LA area.

305

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:31:53pm

re: #293 quiet man

Sorry can’t.
There isnt any one bill..there are house and senate versions opf the bill..that is what McCaskel said.

I can no more show you the bill than you can me to support your own beliefs.

The draft bills are linked upthread, you made the claim, show me the language and section please.

306

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:32:23pm

re: #297 livefreeor die

And what does it do to MommyG’s quality adjusted remaining years? There was a great video a few years ago, with a lot of older men hugging their wives and their wives glaring at the camera and saying sarcastically, “Thanks, Viagra.” It might have been SNL.

Technical note here for everyone: Viagra aids in one isolated component of sex, namely circulation. Libido is not necessarily affected, nor are psychological components.

307

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:32:46pm

re: #282 Walter L. Newton

I’m sorry, I thought you were correcting me. I think we are both correct. The family owns the crater and leases out the day to day running of it to some other folks.

’S ok, Walter. It does appear that we are both correct. Like many other visitors I was startled to learn that it wasn’t public property. I first went there in about 1960, at the same time gene Shoemaker was doing his research though I wasn’t aware of that for many years.

308

Obsidiandog Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:32:52pm

re: #16 doppelganglander

My brother lived in Atlanta for 8 years and he begs to differ…

309

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:32:56pm

re: #286 Walter L. Newton

Like arguing about the planes?

I was down at some ruins and missed that one…I can’t understand how some people need to be so distracted from the big picture…it’s amusing tho

310

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:33:06pm

re: #297 livefreeor die

And what does it do to MommyG’s quality adjusted remaining years? There was a great video a few years ago, with a lot of older men hugging their wives and their wives glaring at the camera and saying sarcastically, “Thanks, Viagra.” It might have been SNL.

MommyG knows I am multi-talented. Viagra would just affect one of the tools in my belt.

311

KenJen Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:33:09pm

re: #303 HoosierHoops

SurferDoc! Nice seeing you.. If you don’t start posting more I’ll recommend you the the Death Panel…
/

Hoops is Little Winston feeling better?

312

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:33:18pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

NO, I did not say that she fucked her way to the top. Not at all.

I said that the GOP powers that be, put her in place as a counter to Hillary, based solely on her gender, in the craven hope that the average American woman would vote for her based solely on her gender.

It is actually the GOP leadership who was being sexist by putting her into the campaign - not me for pointing out the slimy play.

I mean really, are there no GOP women who are smarter or more qualified than her? Were there no GOP women who actually know something about how history, foreign policy or the American government works? Were there no other GOP women who aren’t fear greedily ambitious, self serving, mongering, creationist, diva idiots?

Ah, what you did say was

In fact let me say this even more strongly.

She is a completely self serving, creationist, populist, anti-intellectual, ignorant twit. She couldn’t answer the most basic questions about things like history or how the government works etc… She was only catapulted into public view because she is a moderately attractive woman who was cravenly promoted as a counter to Hillary. So let’s be really clear, Sarah’s qualifications are that she owns a vagina - not that she has a brain, or personal courage, or an urge to serve others than herself.

I missed the part where you specified that it was the GOP that saw only that quality in her, not that she was a conservative GOP Governor that held many of the beliefs of a significant part of the party. It sounds like your opinion of her is similar to the ranting BDS sufferers running around calling an Ivy League graduate ‘stupid’ or at least is the opinion of the MSM in this case.

313

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:33:31pm

re: #271 Dianna

And until she’s running for an office again, and begins explaining positions, I don’t care about her.

I admit, though, that I’m ~~fascinated~~ BORED by the reactions.

314

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:33:33pm

re: #305 Thanos

the draft bills..from where thanos..the house or senate??

Are you suggesting they are all the same..all 5 of them word for word?? Funny McCaskill said her bill was 600 pages long, not 1100…

When you have the final bill in front of you then you can defend it.

315

HoosierHoops Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:33:50pm

re: #306 legalpad

Technical note here for everyone: Viagra aids in one isolated component of sex, namely circulation. Libido is not necessarily affected, nor are psychological components.

Plus if you are eating the new Viagra Ice Cream you probably won’t be able to see why you ate it in the first place…

316

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:34:09pm

re: #289 Mikey_Dallas

So are you saying there won’t have to be any determination of who gets what? Everybody gets everything? They’re not going to tell a 90 year old man he doesn’t get a bypass? Is that what you’re trying to say?

If it’s not, if you admit the obvious that they are going to set standards, then go ahead, you have a different idea of how they’re going to do it? Lay it out.

If it’s not this way, it will be some other way that uses SOME method to determine who gets what. It will deny costly care to seriously ill elderly people, denying them any small chance of being in the group that gets several more years of life.

That’s the freakin point, Walter.

I’m just asking you to point out in the proposal the material that you are reading that brings you to these assumptions you are making. I’m trying to get on the same page with you.

And where did you get the quote “finding and using the most cost effective?” A second time I ask.

317

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:34:13pm

re: #314 quiet man

the draft bills..from where thanos..the house or senate??

Are you suggesting they are all the same..all 5 of them word for word?? Funny McCaskill said her bill was 600 pages long, not 1100…

When you have the final bill in front of you then you can defend it.

Both are available - show me language from either, or stop making stuff up.

318

wintercat Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:34:22pm

re: #212 Mikey_Dallas

Let’s discuss euthanasia…

It would be nice if everyone would just be honest about what this stuff all means, so that the debate would be about that.

The last thing that the Obama Administration wants is an honest discussion about this. It issue would become as hot as, no even hotter, than the abortion issue and it would cut right across their lines. Voters on both sides of the isle would have incredibly strong views on this issue and I strongly suspect the split does not fall strictly along party lines.

319

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:34:32pm

re: #306 legalpad

Technical note here for everyone: Viagra aids in one isolated component of sex, namely circulation. Libido is not necessarily affected, nor are psychological components.

For the rest I would need a nap. But packing heat has a positive psychological effect!

320

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:34:57pm

re: #294 albusteve

TEN YEARS AFTER!
2pts easy

I have always wondered whether they sang that with the appropriate irony, or with straight-faced naivete.
I have been afraid to look it up.

321

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:34:58pm

322

Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:35:25pm

Palinites declare victory…
President Obama and Sen. Isakson Making Things Up

Palin is making her critics look even stupider than they really are!

Palin Power! She dropped the “death panels’ phrase into a statement, knowing full well that her critics would misunderstand/misinterpret and lie about what she really meant…

Now, she can come back at them and say something like ‘there you go again, making stuff up’…

…

OBAMA TOOK THE BAIT!!
Palin Homerun baby!

Heh.

323

Sharmuta Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:35:27pm

re: #85 Charles

I wonder — if there were no end of life provisions in the bill, would the GOP be screaming “Obamacare doesn’t even care about old people”?

They would spin it in such a way that they could still call it eugenics. It’s the new hitler.

324

lostlakehiker Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:35:28pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

Palin is nothing more than a fear mongering demagogue. Her calls for town hall people to show restraint are the ultimate in hypocrisy. She fabricates lies to intentionally whip the gullible into a frenzy and then poses like she is a voice of level headed moderation.

I shall rebut her with herself…

“Out of respect for the American soldier, stop making things up.”

In fact let me say this even more strongly.

She is a completely self serving, creationist, populist, anti-intellectual, ignorant twit. She couldn’t answer the most basic questions about things like history or how the government works etc… She was only catapulted into public view because she is a moderately attractive woman who was cravenly promoted as a counter to Hillary. So let’s be really clear, Sarah’s qualifications are that she owns a vagina - not that she has a brain, or personal courage, or an urge to serve others than herself.

I really hate Obama, however, the thought of her being vice president is even more disturbing to me.

While you are correct that Palin is not very well informed on history and government and current affairs, she does have a brain. See Camille Paglia’s take on that subject, because she has explained why she respects Palin’s intelligence better than I could. As to personal courage amd thinking of others, Palin played high school basketball while injured, and played well enough to be a big plus for her team. And now, she’s gone and taken on the job of raising Trig. She could have aborted. It would have saved her a lot of effort and grief. The general public would have applauded. So your assessment of her character and intelligence I see as off base.

She wouldn’t have made that good a VP, because smart or not, willing to serve or not, she simply didn’t know enough about the things a back-up president has to know.

325

HoosierHoops Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:35:31pm

re: #311 KenJen

Hoops is Little Winston feeling better?

I came home for lunch and he was bouncing around hungry as hell…
I was weighing the cost benefits of feeding him back to health…
He won…this time..
/Thanks for asking Jen

326

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:35:50pm

re: #317 Thanos

Both?? so now there is only one from the house??

there are 3 other house committees versions..

are they linkeed too?? If so I want see all 5 side by side..it would be a nice thing to be able to do.

327

DaddyG Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:35:59pm

re: #308 Obsidiandog

My brother lived in Atlanta for 8 years and he begs to differ…

He should have got out of the city more. /

328

Lincolntf Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:36:08pm

re: #314 quiet man

The whole idea is that there can be no “final bill” until it’s already assured of passage.
Thus the lies and flight from questions. They know this Health Care disaster wouldn’t stand a chance in the sunlight, so they fight to preserve the dark.

329

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:36:25pm

re: #301 ladycatnip

#237 Coracle

Really??

There is no compromise with a single payer system. Wait, let me rephraise that: WE would do the compromising by losing our freedom of choice.

You misunderstand. I believe that single payer is not on the table anymore. This would be an evolution in thinking - perhaps as young as the past year. I suspect you will disagree, which is fine.

330

Obsidiandog Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:36:29pm

It won’t be called a ‘death panel’, it will be cloaked in bureaucratese as James Taranto at Opinion Journal suggests, “Life Completion Commission”.

331

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:36:51pm

re: #293 quiet man

Sorry can’t.
There isnt any one bill..there are house and senate versions opf the bill..that is what McCaskel said.

I can no more show you the bill than you can me to support your own beliefs.

Here is a link to the bill:
[Link: docs.house.gov…]

Why would you downding someone for just asking you to prove your position?

332

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:36:52pm

And to those who are busy defending St. Sarah the moose slayer, can you not tell the tree from the fruits?

Is she, or is she not, making up the most vile lies up in order to whip up public frenzy?

Yes, yes, all politicians lie, but convincing people that the government is going to murder your children in a health care bill is over the top even for American politics - and certainly at this level.

Does she or does she not respond to any critique with obsequious fawning at our soldiers, and flag waving in an attempt to avoid the question by making the questioner look unpatriotic?

“Out of respect for the American soldier, stop making things up.”

Is she or is she not capable of passing a high school civics class?

What about a science class?

For all of you defending her, what exactly are her “qualifications” to be the most powerful person in the world?

333

legalpad Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:37:11pm

re: #315 HoosierHoops

Plus if you are eating the new Viagra Ice Cream you probably won’t be able to see why you ate it in the first place…

Of course, that isn’t actually “Viagra”, but some of it’s ingredients may help.
This nurse might help more.

334

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:37:17pm

People forget that Obama has said that rules for end of life would be followed..ones that did not have to do with the spirit of the person

that some procedures would be not done and the person could get a pain pill instead for economy

335

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:37:50pm

re: #289 Mikey_Dallas

So are you saying there won’t have to be any determination of who gets what? Everybody gets everything? They’re not going to tell a 90 year old man he doesn’t get a bypass? Is that what you’re trying to say?

If it’s not, if you admit the obvious that they are going to set standards, then go ahead, you have a different idea of how they’re going to do it? Lay it out.

If it’s not this way, it will be some other way that uses SOME method to determine who gets what. It will deny costly care to seriously ill elderly people, denying them any small chance of being in the group that gets several more years of life.

That’s the freakin point, Walter.

Anybody but the government.

336

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:38:09pm

re: #326 quiet man

Both?? so now there is only one from the house??

there are 3 other house committees versions..

are they linkeed too?? If so I want see all 5 side by side..it would be a nice thing to be able to do.

I’m asking you to show me language that you say is there, now quit trying to dodge. You say “death panels ” are there, then frigging show me.

337

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:38:22pm

re: #320 haakondahl

I have always wondered whether they sang that with the appropriate irony, or with straight-faced naivete.
I have been afraid to look it up.

beats me…I know I was heavily influenced by my early rock and roll years…so be it…and btw Alvin Lee is still one hell of a blues guitarist

338

ladycatnip Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:38:38pm

#247 medaura 18586

Evita, Princess Dianna. Mother Theresa. Nothing any of these people have done has substantiated helped people’s lives as much as it made them feel better about themselves to wear their virtue on their sleeves.

Mother Theresa in the same league as Evita and Princess Di? You’ve got to be joking, or, you are deeply cynical.

MT has probably done more good in her little pinky than you and I have done with our entire lives. (Not that I know anything about your life; only going on what you said.)

339

eschew_obfuscation Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:38:51pm

re: #231 MandyManners

Maybe they were rich before they took office.

In many cases, the state pays to defend if the suit involves actions taken or not taken as a part of the job. Alaska doesn’t.

340

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:39:28pm

re: #331 keithgabryelski

that is what down dings are for..ask thanos why he downdinged me. we disagree is all…and he feels strongly enough to so and so do I.

341

Mikey_Dallas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:40:07pm

re: #316 Walter L. Newton

TITLE IV—QUALITY
Subtitle A—Comparative Effectiveness Research

You’ll have to read and decipher it yourself…

342

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:40:08pm

re: #336 Thanos

I am using the very same excuse McCaskil used to day in her forum..

343

Pianobuff Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:40:34pm

re: #316 Walter L. Newton

I’m just asking you to point out in the proposal the material that you are reading that brings you to these assumptions you are making. I’m trying to get on the same page with you.

And where did you get the quote “finding and using the most cost effective?” A second time I ask.

This may or may not be what he’s referring to - but do a string search for “comparative effectiveness”. Shows up in a few places. You have a searchable version of the bill, right? I’d be interested in your take on those sections if you’ve reviewed them already.

344

medaura18586 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:40:38pm

re: #149 haakondahl

I would take issue with your characterization of sets of belief. The same longing for God produces religions such as Objectivism, and the impenetrable smug conceit of our Universities.
Different names—same disease.
Independent rational thought is just as hard to come by among atheists as it is among the religious.

I know. When I was a teenager I felt so intellectually superior to pretty much every religious person around me; I was in a Richard Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens state of mind: condescension on autopilot. Then I learned that religiosity is merely one of the many dogmas and superstitions to which the human psyche is chronically vulnerable. And the only reason it stands out is that many people share it, hence can rally up the power of history behind it, and it is explicitly canonized so it can easily categorized, analyzed, and criticized. Most superstitions that dominate our lives are unique to each of us and are hard to relate to others.

In my post, I did not mean to propose that atheists are better equipped toward rational thought, but merely that they do not suffer from this particular delusion (sorry religious folks here—it must sound offensive but it’s not meant to be; I am sure I myself suffer from multiple delusions I have not yet successfully pinpointed and perhaps never will). But people have their reasons for believing what they do, for being drawn to certain dogmas. Falling prey to any superstition fulfills psychological needs, which tend to be consistent in all except most disturbed individuals. What draws people toward overt religiosity also tends to draw them toward creationism — one does not require the other but they tend to converge.

Likewise, what draws people toward a collectivist code of morality also tends to draw them toward collectivist ways of thinking about practical problems.

345

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:40:49pm

re: #332 LudwigVanQuixote

And to those who are busy defending St. Sarah the moose slayer, can you not tell the tree from the fruits?

Is she, or is she not, making up the most vile lies up in order to whip up public frenzy?

Yes, yes, all politicians lie, but convincing people that the government is going to murder your children in a health care bill is over the top even for American politics - and certainly at this level.

Does she or does she not respond to any critique with obsequious fawning at our soldiers, and flag waving in an attempt to avoid the question by making the questioner look unpatriotic?

“Out of respect for the American soldier, stop making things up.”

Is she or is she not capable of passing a high school civics class?

What about a science class?

For all of you defending her, what exactly are her “qualifications” to be the most powerful person in the world?

who cares?…do yourself a favor and get another gig

346

Mikey_Dallas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:40:51pm

re: #335 haakondahl

I’m not advocating this. Just saying the House plan depends on it.

347

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:40:55pm

re: #340 quiet man

that is what down dings are for..ask thanos why he downdinged me. we disagree is all…and he feels strongly enough to so and so do I.

I don’t “feel” strongly… I’m asking for factual evidence to back up your assertion. You seem to be assuming something is there and stating it as fact, if it’s fact provide the evidence.

348

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:41:29pm

349

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:41:30pm

re: #342 quiet man

I am using the very same excuse McCaskil used to day in her forum..

I don’t care what McCaskil did, you asserted something, now back it up.

350

ArmyWife Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:41:54pm

More upsetting is she quoted Michelle Bachman. That said, I find it sad that instead of pointing to why Sarah Palin is incorrect, what is being said is “See! I told you see was a dumb b*tch”.

351

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:41:57pm

re: #306 legalpad

Technical note here for everyone: Viagra aids in one isolated component of sex, namely circulation. Libido is not necessarily affected, nor are psychological components.

IIRC, Viagra was an outgrowth of blood pressure medication research that was investigating vaso-dialators.

352

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:42:08pm

re: #346 Mikey_Dallas

I’m not advocating this. Just saying the House plan depends on it.

Is that fact or you opinion?

353

Mikey_Dallas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:42:51pm

re: #352 Walter L. Newton

We’ve already gone around this mulberry bush Walter. I cited the section, go read it.

354

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:43:18pm

re: #347 Thanos
The evidence is not available..you wish me to run to a possible document out of 5 for proof..

But you seem well informed..which of the 5 do you know has nothing in it about end of life rules and which do??

355

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:43:37pm

re: #343 Pianobuff

This may or may not be what he’s referring to - but do a string search for “comparative effectiveness”. Shows up in a few places. You have a searchable version of the bill, right? I’d be interested in your take on those sections if you’ve reviewed them already.

Thanks, that’s what I am trying to get from Mickey. I wanted to be pointed to something in the proposals that address this.

356

Obsidiandog Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:43:46pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

Palinites declare victory…
President Obama and Sen. Isakson Making Things Up

Heh.

So what didn’t you understand about the article? Howard Dean distorted what she said and Isakson said ‘somebody called him on the phone’ and told him what she said.

357

Lincolntf Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:43:49pm

re: #332 LudwigVanQuixote

“For all of you defending her, what exactly are her “qualifications” to be the most powerful person in the world?”

As I’m sure you’ve been told before…Sarh Palin was a succesful, popular Governor of a huge State. Obama was a pissant State Senator who represented a filthy, crime-ridden slum that improved not one iota during his tenure. Right there, she’s got him beat all over. Not to mention that she’s yet to lie about where her parents met, she’s yet to mock the Special Olympics, she’s yet to slur Cambridge policemen, she’s yet to babble incoherently while her teleprompter was “reset”, etc…

358

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:43:59pm

re: #247 medaura18586

If people wouldn’t insure themselves even if they are provided the money to do so, then they don’t have a right to bitch or demand that everyone else be inconvenienced in order to accommodate their incompetence in taking care of themselves.

/You must think you’re such a better person than me, right? Go ahead. More than half of all this screeching and screaming is a futile exercise in feel-good self-righteousness. Oh, you care for the poor, oh, you devote your life to others. Spare me.

It’s telling that Eunice Kennedy Shriver is someone you look up to. Elitist princess spreads mob-connected prohibition-profiteering daddy’s wealth around. Evita, Princess Dianna. Mother Theresa. Nothing any of these people have done has substantiated helped people’s lives as much as it made them feel better about themselves to wear their virtue on their sleeves. Entrepreneurial activity in a market economy is what lifts people from poverty en masse.

My goodness. Just when I thought I hated Ayn Rand’s guts, I am reminded again and again that I have more in common with her than with the average person in the street or an internet forum.

All right, I would also have to take issue with your lumping Princess Diana in with the description you gave. She was an ordinary person whose life went in an extraordinary direction, and she worked hard to do the right thing, even if misguided at times (I mean, who doesn’t like land mines?), and eventually went out in an ordinary way—didn’t buckle up with an idiot driver.

359

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:44:00pm

re: #353 Mikey_Dallas

We’ve already gone around this mulberry bush Walter. I cited the section, go read it.

I’m sorry, I missed it. I’ll look up thread.

360

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:44:15pm

re: #354 quiet man

The evidence is not available..you wish me to run to a possible document out of 5 for proof..

But you seem well informed..which of the 5 do you know has nothing in it about end of life rules and which do??

Let’s go back to square one: you asserted that death panels are in the bill. Show me or STFU.

361

FamHistoryGuy Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:44:22pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

You seem to have Palin Derangement Syndrome. Could be an interesting filter on the world.

362

Mikey_Dallas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:44:24pm

re: #355 Walter L. Newton

I already cited the section above once, Walter.

363

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:44:52pm

re: #337 albusteve

beats me…I know I was heavily influenced by my early rock and roll years…so be it…and btw Alvin Lee is still one hell of a blues guitarist

Ever dig into early Procol Harum for some blistering Robin Trower?

364

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:45:37pm

re: #353 Mikey_Dallas

We’ve already gone around this mulberry bush Walter. I cited the section, go read it.

I see your post now, going to reread that section with what you said in mind.

365

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:45:48pm

366

FamHistoryGuy Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:45:50pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

And Biden is more acceptable?

367

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:46:03pm

okay I just went to the linked version you all are holding up as definiative..

where is the link to the senate version so I do not have to look please.

368

Ward Cleaver Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:46:38pm

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Palindrome (n.) a pathological condition of moral turpitude that condones lying, obfuscation, and demagoguery up to and including emotionally misleading use of your own progeny to score specious political points. See harasnilap.

“Bolton’s not a palindrome! Bolton spelled backwards is Notlob!”

/monty python

369

Mich-again Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:46:55pm

With all these Congresscritters out there trying to impress us all how much we need to reform health care right now its hard to imagine why they just let H.R. 2785 (IH) sit there in committee since early June.

H. R. 2785
To reduce the amount of paperwork and improve payment policies for health care services, to prevent fraud and abuse through health care provider education, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

June 10, 2009

It would have been a start anyway. But it never got out of Committee. Mac Thornberry (R-TX) sponsored it and maybe that explains why it never went anywhere. Maybe the Dems are horrors! playing politics with health care. At any rate they sure weren’t too eager to move the Bill along to cut costs and prevent fraud.

370

medaura18586 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:46:56pm

re: #338 ladycatnip

#247 medaura 18586

Mother Theresa in the same league as Evita and Princess Di? You’ve got to be joking, or, you are deeply cynical.

MT has probably done more good in her little pinky than you and I have done with our entire lives. (Not that I know anything about your life; only going on what you said.)

Mother Theresa’s vanity was different from Lady D’s, Evita’s, and Princess Kennedy’s. But I think she was motivated by the same basic psychological urges. And she did accept money from thugs and dictators who starved their people and who donated to her programs as good PR. She also engaged in some questionable treatment practices at the charities she ran. I’m with Penn & Teller Bullshit on that one.

Plus I have grown up where she was from, Albania that is, where our airport is named after here, streets, plazas, hospitals, clinics. Tired of her lionization, but whatever, I guess she was not nearly as bad as Lady D, Evita, or Kennedy.

371

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:46:57pm

re: #332 LudwigVanQuixote

And to those who are busy defending St. Sarah the moose slayer, can you not tell the tree from the fruits?

For all of you defending her, what exactly are her “qualifications” to be the most powerful person in the world?

More than the current President. And what’s with the name-calling? Is it the moose-slaying you object to? Or did you just think that sounded funny in whatever circle you hang with?

372

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:47:11pm

re: #360 Thanos
No I said maybe Palin was looking at a version that had that in it..I said there were different versions..so find the other versions of the bill to support your contention or shut the fuck up

373

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:47:16pm

re: #363 haakondahl

Ever dig into early Procol Harum for some blistering Robin Trower?

of course…even saw them a couple of times…those were my golden years…hahaha!…get it?…I’ve been a live show nut since I was about 15…still am

374

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:47:28pm

OT:
Swastika Painted At Congressman’s Office:
Someone spray-painted a large swastika on a sign outside the office of a US congressman who was involved in a contentious argument over health care at a recent community meeting.
Democratic Rep. David Scott, who is black, said the swastika is the latest example of what he believes is an increasingly hateful and racist debate over reforming health care. The Atlanta lawmaker said he also has received mail in recent days that used racial slur references to him, and that characterized President Barack Obama as a Marxist.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Wonderful. Just fucking wonderful.

375

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:47:45pm

re: #357 Lincolntf

“For all of you defending her, what exactly are her “qualifications” to be the most powerful person in the world?”

As I’m sure you’ve been told before…Sarh Palin was a succesful, popular Governor of a huge State. Obama was a pissant State Senator who represented a filthy, crime-ridden slum that improved not one iota during his tenure. Right there, she’s got him beat all over. Not to mention that she’s yet to lie about where her parents met, she’s yet to mock the Special Olympics, she’s yet to slur Cambridge policemen, she’s yet to babble incoherently while her teleprompter was “reset”, etc…

PDS is a tragedy.

376

Dianna Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:48:12pm

re: #338 ladycatnip

And I cannot think why people think Diana Spencer was worth all the frenzy.

377

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:48:22pm

re: #372 quiet man

No I said maybe Palin was looking at a version that had that in it..I said there were different versions..so find the other versions of the bill to support your contention or shut the fuck up

How DARE you swear in here?!?!

378

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:48:45pm

Here’s Beck today, if you want to see health care/Nazi comparissions.
Beck..

379

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:49:04pm

sometime you gotta kill a moose…if you can’t figure out why then that’s your problem

380

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:49:05pm

re: #372 quiet man

No I said maybe Palin was looking at a version that had that in it..I said there were different versions..so find the other versions of the bill to support your contention or shut the fuck up

Show me where Palin said that

381

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:49:47pm

re: #260 Racer X

Remove the word “Palin” from your post and insert “Obama”. Next remove the word “woman” and insert “black man”.

Hows it look now?

Judge people on their merit, not on their skin or gender.

Sure, You betcha!

For all of his faults, Obama is not up there telling you that Republicans want to kill your children on his myspace page in order to incite riots.

382

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:50:08pm

re: #350 ArmyWife

More upsetting is she quoted Michelle Bachman. That said, I find it sad that instead of pointing to why Sarah Palin is incorrect, what is being said is “See! I told you see was a dumb b*tch”.

You would think so, being a woman and all.

383

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:51:06pm

re: #381 LudwigVanQuixote

Sure, You betcha!

For all of his faults, Obama is not up there telling you that Republicans want to kill your children on his myspace page in order to incite riots.

May Obama’s children never face the same threat from institutional decision-making that hers do.

384

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:51:36pm

re: #380 Thanos

where palin said what..she was looking at a version of the bill…she didnt,,I said maybe she did..since there are so many and McCaskill hid behind the same thing today.

its okay since claire did it first

385

formercorpsman Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:52:03pm

As far as Palin goes, I will grant her the same slack I would grant most other folks in such a situation where particular issues hit home. Other politicians from both parties face similar situations. The Kennedys, and cognitive causes comes to mind.

One of the problems is, the rhetoric over something like this is always charged. Some folks on the Republican side of the aisle do not own the bad craziness all to themselves.

I asked this before, and did get a couple of responses. I’ll ask again, and see if anyone who might be in favor of moving in the direction the White House, (and the Democrats) would like to respond.

DOES IT BOTHER YOU, we have President Obama on video, albeit some years ago, blatantly contradicting his position now as it relates to not eliminating the private industry?

It is a fair question.

386

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:52:18pm

re: #384 quiet man

where palin said what..she was looking at a version of the bill…she didnt,,I said maybe she did..since there are so many and McCaskill hid behind the same thing today.

its okay since claire did it first

So you were making stuff up. I thought so.

387

FamHistoryGuy Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:52:19pm

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

Just how do you know this? Do you have access to mind reading equipment? Just what is it based on?

388

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:52:26pm

re: #381 LudwigVanQuixote

Sure, You betcha!

For all of his faults, Obama is not up there telling you that Republicans want to kill your children on his myspace page in order to incite riots.

incite riots?

389

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:52:29pm

390

gatorbait Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:52:29pm

re: #8 Ben Hur

Obama’s Euthanasia Mistake

I could not agree more.

I do not think that Sarah Palin is nuts.

I believe she nailed this issue hard and true.

These well-intentioned utopians who favor compulsory end-of life counseling are evil. The idea is despicable. It was much in vogue in Nazi Germany. This is not fear mongering. This is outrage. If you don’t feel outrage about this issue, I fear that you are nuts.

391

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:52:47pm

re: #353 Mikey_Dallas

Now I see where you are coming from. And this little paragraph bothers me the most.

‘‘(K) make recommendations to the center
14 for the broad dissemination of the findings of
15 research conducted and supported under this
16 section that enables clinicians, patients, con
17sumers, and payers to make more informed
18 health care decisions that improve quality and
19 value.

392

medaura18586 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:53:15pm

re: #358 haakondahl

All right, I would also have to take issue with your lumping Princess Diana in with the description you gave. She was an ordinary person whose life went in an extraordinary direction, and she worked hard to do the right thing, even if misguided at times (I mean, who doesn’t like land mines?), and eventually went out in an ordinary way—didn’t buckle up with an idiot driver.

I don’t know… hard to treat someone who accepts a title of nobility as “an ordinary person swept in the current of events.” She sought the attention, the glare, the glitz… Deep down, of course she was just an ordinary person. Indeed, we all are, which is why I look down on pretensions of nobility.

393

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:54:35pm

you should care what McCaskill did and said

394

Lincolntf Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:54:52pm

re: #381 LudwigVanQuixote

And no Republicans want “tens of thousands of women to die from botched back-alley abortions”, but that’s the hysterical hyperbole that accompanies every measure to expand abortion funding.

Palin may very well be taking a page from the Fear/Hatred book that the Libs used to such advantage during the Bush years.

395

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:54:52pm

re: #385 formercorpsman

As far as Palin goes, I will grant her the same slack I would grant most other folks in such a situation where particular issues hit home. Other politicians from both parties face similar situations. The Kennedys, and cognitive causes comes to mind.

One of the problems is, the rhetoric over something like this is always charged. Some folks on the Republican side of the aisle do not own the bad craziness all to themselves.

I asked this before, and did get a couple of responses. I’ll ask again, and see if anyone who might be in favor of moving in the direction the White House, (and the Democrats) would like to respond.

DOES IT BOTHER YOU, we have President Obama on video, albeit some years ago, blatantly contradicting his position now as it relates to not eliminating the private industry?

It is a fair question.

You mean…

“I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program. I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its Gross National Product on health care cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that’s what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. And that’s what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House.”

[Link: www.breitbart.tv…]

Don’t worry. I was told that he was lying to the progressive wing of the party and he didn’t really mean it. Seriously, I was told this by someone on the left.

396

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:55:23pm

re: #386 Thanos
Hardly..but you know the house bill inside and out, right??

the one just linked..where is the sante bill..I have yet to see it’s text

397

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:55:31pm

re: #392 medaura18586

I don’t know… hard to treat someone who accepts a title of nobility as “an ordinary person swept in the current of events.” She sought the attention, the glare, the glitz… Deep down, of course she was just an ordinary person. Indeed, we all are, which is why I look down on pretensions of nobility.

Oh, come on. You’d marry the big-eared fop for a castle, too.

398

Pianobuff Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:55:46pm

re: #355 Walter L. Newton

Thanks, that’s what I am trying to get from Mickey. I wanted to be pointed to something in the proposals that address this.

Hopefully you can explain some of this. What some here might be wondering about are these very broadly defined mechanisms to define effectiveness of treatment. There are not a lot of specifics (that I’m seeing anyway), to existing AMA protocols, etc. to determine exactly what treatments are appropriate to what conditions and other factors… There’s just some loose governance mechanism alluded to.

As some others have pointed out, every insurance company probably has some of this in place in some measure. I say some, because everyone does it a little differently - that’s why actuaries get paid great bucks without having the stress of other executive positions. Now natch, some sort of decision-making needs to take place and this is the means.

Now at the same time, others here are referring to past writings by key policy advisors, Tsars, etc. that at least to some, feel a little creepy.

What may have some folks squeamish is that you have loosely or conceptually defined governance to go along with some really interesting characters in influential positions. Is this a smoking gun? Well, certainly not in spelled out way, but it is not unreasonable for some who feel choices will be limited in the run to get a little nervous about this particular set of attributes.

I’m not making that argument in this post. Merely, hoping to provide additional context for where there may be some additional concerns, separate and apart from the end-of-life provisions and where a little light might go a long way in one direction or another.

I’m looking forward to comments on your reading of these sections, as I also welcome correction or clarification. I don’t want to misrepresent anyone here, and I certainly would like a 2nd opinion on this.

399

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:56:28pm

re: #393 quiet man

you should care what McCaskill did and said

You should be honest and not make stuff up, there’s enough crap out there about this bill that serious and substantive objections are getting buried.

400

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:57:05pm

re: #391 Walter L. Newton

Now I see where you are coming from. And this little paragraph bothers me the most.

‘‘(K) make recommendations to the center
14 for the broad dissemination of the findings of
15 research conducted and supported under this
16 section that enables clinicians, patients, con
17sumers, and payers to make more informed
18 health care decisions that improve quality and
19 value.

As the POTUS has said quality and value could mean using generic, or different drugs that provide the same or better care and value. Eliminating procedures that are found to have no benefit and the like. Even now, insurance companies will not pay for ineffective drugs and treatments even if the patient believes them to be.

401

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:57:29pm

re: #399 Thanos

I say that is what you are doing in pointing to a bill you know is not the only one and pretending it is.

402

ArmyWife Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:57:54pm

re: #395 Walter L. Newton

Just playing chess. Just a chess move.

Good grief, they believe this. Bless their little hearts.

403

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:58:10pm

re: #400 avanti

As the POTUS has said quality and value could mean using generic, or different drugs that provide the same or better care and value. Eliminating procedures that are found to have no benefit and the like. Even now, insurance companies will not pay for ineffective drugs and treatments even if the patient believes them to be.

where does the bill address tort reform and defensive medicine?

404

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:58:35pm

405

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:58:36pm

re: #401 quiet man

I say that is what you are doing in pointing to a bill you know is not the only one and pretending it is.

I say what you are doing is lying about things in the bill, and then pretending there is no bill to lie about.

406

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:58:58pm

re: #398 Pianobuff

I’m not an expert, here is the paragraph in that section that bothers me…

Because there is no details as to what payers would do with this information to improve quality and VALUE.

You could write a whole new section on those three lines. But without defined direction, those three lines could lend them to doing all sorts of things.

407

avanti Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:59:24pm

re: #403 albusteve

where does the bill address tort reform and defensive medicine?

It does not address tort reform and wish it did.

408

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:59:40pm

Isn’t this whole thing like living in a Bush Social Security Reform bizarro world?

409

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:59:48pm

re: #357 Lincolntf

“For all of you defending her, what exactly are her “qualifications” to be the most powerful person in the world?”

As I’m sure you’ve been told before…Sarh Palin was a succesful, popular Governor of a huge State. Obama was a pissant State Senator who represented a filthy, crime-ridden slum that improved not one iota during his tenure. Right there, she’s got him beat all over. Not to mention that she’s yet to lie about where her parents met, she’s yet to mock the Special Olympics, she’s yet to slur Cambridge policemen, she’s yet to babble incoherently while her teleprompter was “reset”, etc…

Even with a teleprompter she manages to see ignorant and incoherent things. I mean c’mon, her qualification for foreign policy was that she could see Russia?

I don’t know about lying about where her parents met, but she is certainly lying about health care in an attempt to incite mobs.

As to insulting the special olympics, give that a rest. Obama has many things to criticize, but so what?

I get, I really get that you don’t like Obama. Guess what? I am not his fan either, but the logical fallacy here is that somehow the goodness or badness of O effects in anyway the qualifications of St. Sarah of the Soccer Ball.

O could be Charles F’n Manson and it still would say nothing about St. Sarah the mighty Bear Shooter.

But if you want to talk about O’s horrible slum neighborhood, well, he didn’t abandon those who elected him in a small position, while St. Sarah the Quitter did.

410

doppelganglander Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:00:09pm

re: #308 Obsidiandog

My brother lived in Atlanta for 8 years and he begs to differ…

I’ve lived here for 17 years and he was obviously hanging out with the wrong crowd.

411

ArmyWife Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:00:13pm

re: #400 avanti

Depends on the policy. Many will pay for the name brand drug - the end user must pay a higher co-pay or have the physician spell out why the generic can’t be used.

I have no issue with the end user paying more for the bells and whistles if that is what they want. I have issue with states mandating levels of coverage that may be extreme as well.

412

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:00:26pm

the entire bill is a piece of shit…nobody knows who is writing it, it cannot be explained in plain terms, and nobody seems to know how it’s going to be paid for, except the socialists…more intrusive govt, higher taxes…junk it

413

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:01:03pm

re: #385 formercorpsman

DOES IT BOTHER YOU, we have President Obama on video, albeit some years ago, blatantly contradicting his position now as it relates to not eliminating the private industry?

It doesn’t bother me that our president has, in the past (or even now) wanted/wants a different bill than can be passed right now.

I don’t see it as a contradiction. It is simply a realistic view given the position America is in and what is possible in his term.

There are other questions:

Is this a step to eliminating private industry.

Is this step taken hoping to eliminate private industry?

Do you consider eliminating a private industry a bad thing?

414

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:01:05pm

[Link: benatlas.com…]

photo’s of the Jewish qt. being made judenfrie by the British trained and lead Arab legion

this is what the zero supports now when he complains about Jews living in eastern Jerusalem.

415

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:01:46pm

re: #412 albusteve

the entire bill is a piece of shit…nobody knows who is writing it, it cannot be explained in plain terms, and nobody seems to know how it’s going to be paid for, except the socialists…more intrusive govt, higher taxes…junk it

I agree. Mostly it’s shit, and I’ve actually read large sections of it.

416

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:02:00pm

re: #400 avanti

As the POTUS has said quality and value could mean using generic, or different drugs that provide the same or better care and value. Eliminating procedures that are found to have no benefit and the like. Even now, insurance companies will not pay for ineffective drugs and treatments even if the patient believes them to be.

Hey Avanti, if it is NOT in the proposal, I don’t care what Obama’s explanation is, it’s not going to become law unless it’s in their and stays in there. Right now…

Can be open to a sorts of interpretation. It’s a problematic paragraph without a clarification as to what quality and value actually stands for and the processes of obtaining that.

It’s weasel words right now.

417

wintercat Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:02:08pm

re: #394 Lincolntf

And no Republicans want “tens of thousands of women to die from botched back-alley abortions”, but that’s the hysterical hyperbole that accompanies every measure to expand abortion funding.

Palin may very well be taking a page from the Fear/Hatred book that the Libs used to such advantage during the Bush years.

I think she absolutely did. But her rhetoric is creating a problem for those who oppose the health care bill. Whether one likes it or not, those in opposition to this bill are being scrutinized heavily and are being held to a different standard by the media.

418

Pianobuff Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:02:18pm

re: #406 Walter L. Newton

I’m not an expert, here is the paragraph in that section that bothers me…

‘‘(K) make recommendations to the center
14 for the broad dissemination of the findings of
15 research conducted and supported under this
16 section that enables clinicians, patients, con
17sumers, and payers to make more informed
18 health care decisions that improve quality and
19 value.

Because there is no details as to what payers would do with this information to improve quality and VALUE.

You could write a whole new section on those three lines. But without defined direction, those three lines could lend them to doing all sorts of things.

Well, I hope your wrong, but it’s been reading to may like a very open-ended bookmark that could go anywhere. Not saying it would, but the vagueness is disconcerting to me as well. I really really hope that my concerns are unfounded but this keeps nagging at me. I don’t want a “insert social justice protocols here” action to come at some later point in time because there is a overly-vague placeholder.

419

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:02:34pm

re: #414 yochanan

[Link: benatlas.com…]

photo’s of the Jewish qt. being made judenfrie by the British trained and lead Arab legion

this is what the zero supports now when he complains about Jews living in eastern Jerusalem.

Damn straight. Now that is something to criticize O for that is a bit more important than a special olympics gaff.

420

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:03:20pm

re: #405 Thanos
sorry..that is not it at all..there is no bill, that much is true..but you are defending the wording of a bill..and you point to a sing;e version of the bill.

I am pointing to the other 4 versions of the bill…and no one has a link to the senate side of the bill.

We do not know what is in the senate version or the other house versions. You don’t, I dont, Charles doesn’t

421

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:04:03pm

re: #413 keithgabryelski

It doesn’t bother me that our president has, in the past (or even now) wanted/wants a different bill than can be passed right now.

I don’t see it as a contradiction. It is simply a realistic view given the position America is in and what is possible in his term.

There are other questions:

Is this a step to eliminating private industry.

Is this step taken hoping to eliminate private industry?

Do you consider eliminating a private industry a bad thing?

Well, this statement sure sound future perfect…

First we do this and then that in the future and then… well, single payer.

422

Pianobuff Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:04:11pm

re: #409 LudwigVanQuixote

Even with a teleprompter she manages to see ignorant and incoherent things. I mean c’mon, her qualification for foreign policy was that she could see Russia?

I don’t know about lying about where her parents met, but she is certainly lying about health care in an attempt to incite mobs.

As to insulting the special olympics, give that a rest. Obama has many things to criticize, but so what?

I get, I really get that you don’t like Obama. Guess what? I am not his fan either, but the logical fallacy here is that somehow the goodness or badness of O effects in anyway the qualifications of St. Sarah of the Soccer Ball.

O could be Charles F’n Manson and it still would say nothing about St. Sarah the mighty Bear Shooter.

But if you want to talk about O’s horrible slum neighborhood, well, he didn’t abandon those who elected him in a small position, while St. Sarah the Quitter did.

Well, if you want to split hairs over this, Obama pretty much collected a paycheck from the taxpayers for doing nothing but campaign for a good part of his term. Most, if not all, do that but on the value side Palin stopped collecting a paycheck when she stopped working. Most of the rest, not so much.

423

ArmyWife Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:04:23pm

re: #406 Walter L. Newton

Trepidation is a great reaction to this clause. It ought to be discussed in depth. Questioning this doesn’t make you a freak, it makes you smart. I don’t advocate using hyperbole (ex. death panel) as that gives those who would like you to look away a great distraction. Heck! Look at the distraction here and the majority are some smart cookies! Let’s talk about this without the name calling (not that you have) - and I don’t believe calling someone a socialist is name calling on every occasion. Sometimes if the shoe fits, eat it, ya know?

424

tradewind Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:04:30pm

Obama’s health care claims are nuts: The CBO says so.

The CBO does not believe that Mr. Obama’s proposal “bends” health-care spending down, as the president has repeatedly claimed it would. The CBO says it escalates above today’s rate.
By 2029, Mr. Hennessey estimates that new taxes will bring in $143 billion a year, while net new health spending will have increased by $348 billion a year.

That’s not stopping him from using his own scare tactics, though…
[Link: online.wsj.com…]

425

Randall Gross Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:04:43pm

re: #420 quiet man

sorry..that is not it at all..there is no bill, that much is true..but you are defending the wording of a bill..and you point to a sing;e version of the bill.

I am pointing to the other 4 versions of the bill…and no one has a link to the senate side of the bill.

We do not know what is in the senate version or the other house versions. You don’t, I dont, Charles doesn’t

So you can lie and say things are there when you haven’t seen it, I get it. Those of us in reality land now have better things to do than talk with you. Later.

426

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:04:50pm

re: #415 Thanos

I agree. Mostly it’s shit, and I’ve actually read large sections of it.

don’t think for a minute that I don’t appreciate your’s and Walters work to expose it for what it is…nice work…I’m a simple guy and even I can see this beast for what it is

427

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:04:51pm

re: #394 Lincolntf

And no Republicans want “tens of thousands of women to die from botched back-alley abortions”, but that’s the hysterical hyperbole that accompanies every measure to expand abortion funding.

Palin may very well be taking a page from the Fear/Hatred book that the Libs used to such advantage during the Bush years.

What, are you insane? White house talking points from the Bush Cheney years were can be entirely summed up by chanting, do as we say, or terrorists will kill the little girl.

You have got to be kidding me.

428

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:05:13pm

re: #390 gatorbait

I could not agree more.

I do not think that Sarah Palin is nuts.

I believe she nailed this issue hard and true.

These well-intentioned utopians who favor compulsory end-of life counseling are evil. The idea is despicable. It was much in vogue in Nazi Germany. This is not fear mongering. This is outrage. If you don’t feel outrage about this issue, I fear that you are nuts.

I think the Nazis provided a slightly different kind of “counselling”, ya twit.
I feel no outrage about end-of-life counselling, so long as the counselling is informative and apolitical.
But I would rather see the money spent on beginning-of-life counselling for some of those teenage welfare baby factories out there.

429

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:05:39pm

re: #418 Pianobuff

Well, I hope your wrong, but it’s been reading to may like a very open-ended bookmark that could go anywhere. Not saying it would, but the vagueness is disconcerting to me as well. I really really hope that my concerns are unfounded but this keeps nagging at me. I don’t want a “insert social justice protocols here” action to come at some later point in time because there is a overly-vague placeholder.

Well, you can thank Mickey for pointing me back to it. I read it before, but like the language, it seemed innocent, until you read it in a different light, as Mickey pointed out.

430

ArmyWife Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:05:48pm

re: #420 quiet man

If I was a betting person, I’d say the senate doesn’t know either.

431

Pianobuff Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:07:15pm

re: #429 Walter L. Newton

Well, you can thank Mickey for pointing me back to it. I read it before, but like the language, it seemed innocent, until you read it in a different light, as Mickey pointed out.

I’ll add that, although I’m outnumbered, this is what I believe Palin’s hyperbole referenced, not the end-of-life counseling stuff. Does that sound possible?

432

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:07:32pm

re: #430 ArmyWife

If I was a betting person, I’d say the senate doesn’t know either.

the Senate is scared shitless of this whole fiasco

433

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:07:41pm

re: #371 haakondahl

More than the current President. And what’s with the name-calling? Is it the moose-slaying you object to? Or did you just think that sounded funny in whatever circle you hang with?

Actually I do think it sounds funny. I am sorry you do not. However, if there is a BDS or a PDS, there is also a syndrome that would canonize those people and wash away all their sins.

Saints usually get epithets.

Sarah, in a craven attempt to gain political power, is cravenly lying to incite riots. That is a big sin.

434

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:07:44pm

I found a senate version..maybe it is the one McCaskill was speaking of

[Link: help.senate.gov…]

I am going to go read it for a while

435

kansas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:08:20pm

re: #434 quiet man

I found a senate version..maybe it is the one McCaskill was speaking of

[Link: help.senate.gov…]

I am going to go read it for a while

Read that and you will be sleeping man instead of quiet man.

436

Ben Hur Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:08:34pm

I mean c’mon, her qualification for foreign policy was that she could see Russia?

That was Tina Fey.

FWIW.

437

96RoadKing Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:08:52pm

One thing I’ll say…no matter which side of the Health Care issue you’re on, there’s a whole lot of opinion out there!

438

kansas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:09:20pm

I have HR 3200 on PDF on my desktop, all 1017 pages of it.

439

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:09:32pm

re: #419 LudwigVanQuixote

making parts of Jerusalem judenfrie is pure anti semitism and the zero’s position makes me so mad.
if i have to choose between a POTUS in occupied d.c. or jews living in the holy city of Jerusalem I will not forget Jerusalem.

440

[deleted] Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:09:43pm

441

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:09:48pm

re: #433 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually I do think it sounds funny. I am sorry you do not. However, if there is a BDS or a PDS, there is also a syndrome that would canonize those people and wash away all their sins.

Saints usually get epithets.

Sarah, in a craven attempt to gain political power, is cravenly lying to incite riots. That is a big sin.

good grief…take a break for a while

442

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:10:18pm

re: #423 ArmyWife

Trepidation is a great reaction to this clause. It ought to be discussed in depth. Questioning this doesn’t make you a freak, it makes you smart. I don’t advocate using hyperbole (ex. death panel) as that gives those who would like you to look away a great distraction. Heck! Look at the distraction here and the majority are some smart cookies! Let’s talk about this without the name calling (not that you have) - and I don’t believe calling someone a socialist is name calling on every occasion. Sometimes if the shoe fits, eat it, ya know?

Yep. I’m not bothered by what anyone says about this proposal, short of anyone trying to use it as a rallying point to break the law or hurt someone and so on.

But, if someone want to interpret a vague paragraph as something sinister, then let them. Then we’ll look at it (like I did by revisiting this paragraph) and we may see something we missed the first time.

The thing that all the progressives miss (or really don’t miss) in complaining about all this debate and sometime hyperbole, is that bottom line, it’s causing a whole lot of people to become engaged in looking this over.

And you got the nuts, but the nuts get people like me to look deeper into things, and if I see a need to clarify and/or correct the nuts, than I do, and we are all the better for it.

So, I want as many people as possible to be wrapped up in examining this proposal, nuts and all.

Speak out, it’s the one freedom the progressives haven’t taken away yet.

443

Flyovercountry Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:10:19pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

Mr. Trout, I know that Former Governor Palin did not mean euthanasia. She still came off as shrill, and histerical. Her gaffe took the very real issues of this incredibly poor bill out of focus. This is not helping our side win the debate in the slightest. there are real problems with this bill. the real elephant in the room is whether we have a crisis in the first place. the second elephant, is if there is such a crisis, is this going to be a solution at all. (Personally, I believe we should look at torte reform first.) If it was calculated on Palin’s part, so much the worse. The debate needs to be refocused on actual issues, this is where we win.

444

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:10:27pm

re: #421 Walter L. Newton

[President Obama’s plan is …]
First we do this and then that in the future and then… well, single payer.

I agree, that is his plan.

Is it a bad plan? Is this step a bad step?

445

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:10:53pm

re: #383 haakondahl

May Obama’s children never face the same threat from institutional decision-making that hers do.

Because insurance institutional decision making is more geared to protect people? Look, I am all for private enterprise, but don’t tell me the insurance company doesn’t ration care and look to its bottom line first.

446

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:11:07pm

re: #444 keithgabryelski

I agree, that is his plan.

Is it a bad plan? Is this step a bad step?

Yes. Yes.

447

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:11:17pm

re: #431 Pianobuff

I’ll add that, although I’m outnumbered, this is what I believe Palin’s hyperbole referenced, not the end-of-life counseling stuff. Does that sound possible?

Possible, but she certainly said it the wrong way. But good for her, it got a bunch of us to look into it and now, we have some questions, See, freedom of speech, works every time.

448

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:11:28pm

I’m off to meet some lizards!

449

kansas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:11:34pm

Well Obama says Fed Ex and UPS are doing well, it’s the Postal Service that’s effed up…oh wait…rewind that teleprompter.

450

Pianobuff Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:11:47pm

re: #422 Pianobuff

Well, if you want to split hairs over this, Obama pretty much collected a paycheck from the taxpayers for doing nothing but campaign for a good part of his term. Most, if not all, do that but on the value side Palin stopped collecting a paycheck when she stopped working. Most of the rest, not so much.

BTW LVQ, that’s not a specific knock on Obama, it’s more of a cynical comment on the system in general. Who else but a politician gets to spend all of their time trying to get the next job while being paid for the one their not doing. If I was looking for any campaign reform it would be to highly shorten the process.

451

kansas Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:12:28pm

re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote

Because insurance institutional decision making is more geared to protect people? Look, I am all for private enterprise, but don’t tell me the insurance company doesn’t ration care and look to its bottom line first.

The insurance company provides what it is contractually obligated to provide.

452

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:12:34pm

re: #432 albusteve

the Senate is scared shitless of this whole fiasco

I certainly hope so. The only end-of-life counseling I view as mandatory is that for this misbegotten bill.

453

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:13:43pm

re: #448 haakondahl

I’m off to meet some lizards!

Isn’t that line from The Lizard of Oz?

454

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:14:01pm

re: #444 keithgabryelski

I agree, that is his plan.

Is it a bad plan? Is this step a bad step?

Alinsky…do you really want the feds to control the economy?…where is your American spirit?…you are a free man are you not?

455

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:14:07pm

re: #444 keithgabryelski

I agree, that is his plan.

Is it a bad plan? Is this step a bad step?

If you don’t mind socialism, and a plan that will eventually ignore the whole private capital aspects of the foundational ideologies of this country, then no, it’s wonderful. Have at it comrade.

456

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:14:56pm

re: #452 haakondahl

I certainly hope so. The only end-of-life counseling I view as mandatory is that for this misbegotten bill.

KILL the BILL!

457

Pvt Bin Jammin Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:15:08pm

re: #448 haakondahl

We have one other lizard coming. Drive safely.

458

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:15:13pm

re: #439 yochanan

making parts of Jerusalem judenfrie is pure anti semitism and the zero’s position makes me so mad.
if i have to choose between a POTUS in occupied d.c. or jews living in the holy city of Jerusalem I will not forget Jerusalem.

What are you saying the position is?

459

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:15:33pm

re: #457 Pvt Bin Jammin

We have one other lizard coming. Drive safely.

Yee-ha!

460

haakondahl Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:15:51pm

Okay, now really gotta go.

461

Pvt Bin Jammin Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:15:58pm

re: #459 haakondahl

Have not heard back from the other one.

462

formercorpsman Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:16:31pm

re: #413 keithgabryelski

Not yet.

I think so. It has been stated recently, by other congressional voices, this is their aim & goal.

I consider it a disaster looming. I think all we have to do, is contrast just a few responsibilities the government is in charge of right now, and ask why they should be allowed to intervene even more.

In support of this legislation, they so much as said this will help “fix” Medicare, and Medicaid. As well, you can look back a couple of threads, Lawhawk made some terribly valid points with how they have mismanaged current programs, and it might be incumbent upon them to fix these first before allowing them to “fix” the entire industry now.

On a personal note, yes, I believe in a free market. I have many years in health care. The one thing I can tell you unequivocally, is most of the insurance companies out there are making money. I do not begrudge profitability. As well, I do not begrudge people making their own decisions about how they wish to spend their health care dollars.

For sure, and I have lived this for quite a while, Medicare has consistently cut back their contracted reimbursements, steadily, over the last couple of years. This has produced a domino effect, with the Blues, and other private insurers cutting reimbursements right behind them.

In medicine right now, we know we are due for another round of cuts from Medicare, on our reimbursements for certain, often performed surgeries. There will be a point, and I can tell you it is getting close, those folks who try to participate with the system will just start opting out, or recognize there is no benefit to provide such services with any incentive such as time. It will not matter, when you kill the profitability.

I live this day in, and day out.

463

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:17:03pm

Well that wasnt the senate version of the bill…some other bill.

464

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:17:16pm

re: #451 kansas

The insurance company provides what it is contractually obligated to provide.

I have a contract for the sale of a certain bridge in brooklyn right here…

465

SFGoth Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:17:43pm

Palin’s conduct since the election indicates that she was clearly not ready for prime time. McCain’s conduct in selecting her via the “pin the tail on the VEEP” method indicates that he wasn’t either.

466

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:18:37pm

re: #465 SFGoth

We could say the same thing for Obama..his conduct has not been presidential at all.

467

SFGoth Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:18:42pm

re: #451 kansas

The insurance company provides what it is contractually obligated to provide.

The insurance company can be compelled by judgment to provide what it is contractually obligated to provide.

468

Racer X Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:19:02pm

The life span of a Downs syndrome child is greatly diminished.

I think Palin was concerned about some bureaucrat deciding when to deny medical assistance to her child (child - one - not plural). Her term of “death panel” was meant in a derogatory way at said bureaucrats - whether they were government or private.

IMHO.

469

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:19:14pm

re: #462 formercorpsman

well said my windy bro

470

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:19:28pm

re: #467 SFGoth
That is true..and the govenment cannot be compelled to do so.

a good reason to kill the bill.

471

SFGoth Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:19:32pm

re: #466 quiet man

We could say the same thing for Obama..his conduct has not been presidential at all.

Your point?

472

quiet man Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:20:09pm

re: #471 SFGoth
I would rather have had Sarah Palin as President than Obama

473

SFGoth Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:20:23pm

re: #470 quiet man

That is true..and the govenment cannot be compelled to do so.

a good reason to kill the bill.

That’s what I keep telling Libs I know — you can sue the insurance company but good luck suing the Federal Government.

474

formercorpsman Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:20:50pm

re: #469 albusteve

I know, I do go long some times.

Thanks Steve.

475

SFGoth Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:21:15pm

re: #472 quiet man

I would rather have had Sarah Palin as President than Obama

I’d rather be shot in the leg than in the head, although you can still die from a leg wound. Next

476

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:21:19pm

re: #472 quiet man

I would rather have had Sarah Palin as President than Obama

I’d rather have Batman than Oboy for president…Palin had her thing, it’s over

477

SFGoth Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:22:14pm

re: #476 albusteve

I’d rather have Batman than Oboy for president…Palin had her thing, it’s over

Mmmm, what cabinet position — or heck, what position — does Catwoman fill?

478

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:22:30pm

re: #458 Coracle

the zero has said the Jewish construction in Jerusalem is the same as construction in the west bank.

i.e. Jews should not build in Jerusalem.

there were Jews living in Jerusalem when Washington d.c. was a swamp. before the land was stolen from the native Americans.

479

formercorpsman Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:23:09pm

re: #475 SFGoth

I will try to keep it short.

My gut is telling me, before 4 years are up, I am afraid we might be high tailing it out of Afghanistan.

This pains me.

480

Bob Dillon Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:23:38pm

re: #477 SFGoth

Mmmm, what cabinet position — or heck, what position — does Catwoman fill?

Homeland Security?

481

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:24:26pm

re: #446 haakondahl

Yes. Yes.

Why and why?

482

Summer Seale Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:24:27pm

I have a new mascot for the Conservative movement. Really get back to basics with a blast from the past: a sandwich man with black paint on white boards touting “The End is Nigh!”

483

formercorpsman Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:24:51pm

re: #478 yochanan

Wow. I am not jewish, but I can only imagine how that must sound to someone who is.

Someone who understands the meaning of the homeland.

484

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:03pm

re: #479 formercorpsman

I will try to keep it short.

My gut is telling me, before 4 years are up, I am afraid we might be high tailing it out of Afghanistan.

This pains me.

me too…I can’t express my rage on this subject…it is already going bad

485

Bob Dillon Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:14pm

re: #479 formercorpsman

I will try to keep it short.

My gut is telling me, before 4 years are up, I am afraid we might be high tailing it out of Afghanistan.

This pains me.

Democrats in charge. Cut and run. We should be used to this by now.

486

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:28pm

re: #477 SFGoth

Mmmm, what cabinet position — or heck, what position — does Catwoman fill?

missionary

487

formercorpsman Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:49pm

re: #484 albusteve

I keep thinking Somalia in the back of my mind.

488

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:26:24pm

re: #478 yochanan

“Jewish construction in Jerusalem is the same as construction in the west bank.”

We’re talking the hills in Eastern Jerusalem?

489

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:26:26pm

re: #478 yochanan

the zero has said the Jewish construction in Jerusalem is the same as construction in the west bank.

i.e. Jews should not build in Jerusalem.

there were Jews living in Jerusalem when Washington d.c. was a swamp. before the land was stolen from the native Americans.

The US should stop settlement activity on all the lands that belonged to Native Americans.
They have more right to the land than the Arabs do to Israel.

490

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:26:54pm

re: #477 SFGoth

Mmmm, what cabinet position — or heck, what position — does Catwoman fill?

Not doggy position.

491

Bob Dillon Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:27:01pm

re: #478 yochanan

the zero has said the Jewish construction in Jerusalem is the same as construction in the west bank.

i.e. Jews should not build in Jerusalem.

there were Jews living in Jerusalem when Washington d.c. was a swamp. before the land was stolen from the native Americans.

Obama has a problem or 3 - he can’t count and knows nothing of history - save his own bigoted versions.

492

formercorpsman Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:27:46pm

re: #462 formercorpsman

Keith, I am heading home.

I’ll catch up later tonight.

493

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:28:36pm

re: #481 keithgabryelski

Why and why?

if it’s not obvious then you need to hit the books…
resist or submit…you have a choice

494

SFGoth Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:29:05pm

re: #479 formercorpsman

I will try to keep it short.

My gut is telling me, before 4 years are up, I am afraid we might be high tailing it out of Afghanistan.

This pains me.

Why? No one has conquered Afghanistan and no one will. This is not a war against a nation-state. How do you win - make Afghanistan a stable, functioning, prosperous country? Combine :uber-rugged geography with tribalism with Islam and what do you get? An ungovernable mess.

495

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:29:17pm

re: #490 Kosh’s Shadow

Not doggy position.

That’s a bit ruff around the edges.

496

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:29:28pm

re: #490 Kosh’s Shadow

Not doggy position.

here comes the train!…yeeehaaa!

497

Flyers1974 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:30:43pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

NO, I did not say that she fucked her way to the top. Not at all.

I said that the GOP powers that be, put her in place as a counter to Hillary, based solely on her gender, in the craven hope that the average American woman would vote for her based solely on her gender.

It is actually the GOP leadership who was being sexist by putting her into the campaign - not me for pointing out the slimy play.
I mean really, are there no GOP women who are smarter or more qualified than her? Were there no GOP women who actually know something about how history, foreign policy or the American government works? Were there no other GOP women who aren’t fear greedily ambitious, self serving, mongering, creationist, diva idiots?

No doubt in my mind that her sex and relative attractiveness compared to other politicians had something to do with her being picked and with people’s immediate facsination with her. Is this that controversial? I remember one of the first political things we read about in middle school was that JFK’s youthfulness/attractiveness compared to Nixon helped put him over the top as opposed to any policy differences. And wasn’t Dan Quayle picked in large part for his youthful appearence? It wasn’t to bring home the Indiana vote. I think Palin was picked because she is a women, relatively attractive, socially very conservative, and because of her image as being “one of us.” If McCain wanted pure intellectual firepower, he could have found a Jean Kirkpatrick equivalent somewhere.

498

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:30:58pm

re: #488 Coracle

We’re talking the hills in Eastern Jerusalem?

are you saying there is a place in the world it is morally ok to say jews can’t live there?

judenfrie = anti semitism

499

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:31:21pm

re: #493 albusteve

if it’s not obvious then you need to hit the books…
resist or submit…you have a choice

I’m asking you for your opinion, actually the opinions of all lizards.

500

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:33:18pm

re: #499 keithgabryelski

I’m asking you for your opinion, actually the opinions of all lizards.

I gave it…govt control of the economy is socialism, doomed to fail and take you down with it…BO does not give a hoot about you…to him you are a source of revenue…if you pay taxes that is

501

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:35:05pm

re: #498 yochanan

are you saying there is a place in the world it is morally ok to say jews can’t live there?

judenfrie = anti semitism

No. However there are places where new settlements are injurious to the cause of peace. I speak as the son of a Sabra with family in residence.

502

Summer Seale Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:35:18pm

re: #498 yochanan

are you saying there is a place in the world it is morally ok to say jews can’t live there?

judenfrie = anti semitism

Yes I have to agree 100% with that. I’m not Jewish, but I support the Jewish state (even as a complete Atheist). Jerusalem is Jewish and Israel is Jewish. And Jews should be free to live anywhere they want. The real Nazis are the Islamists who make you prove your non-Jewishness and non-Christianity to agree that you have the right to live in their countries. Enough is enough.

503

albusteve Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:38:18pm

re: #501 Coracle

No. However there are places where new settlements are injurious to the cause of peace. I speak as the son of a Sabra with family in residence.

Hamas can make peace whenever they want to…it’s not about new settlements and never was…another shiny object

504

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:39:40pm

re: #503 albusteve

Hamas can make peace whenever they want to…it’s not about new settlements and never was…another shiny object

Hamas will never make peace. They are a different problem.

505

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:40:33pm

re: #501 Coracle

if the mir sight of a jew drives the arab anti semite into a blood lust so much for any peace in our life time.

my grand daughter was born in Jerusalem the anti semites in the state dept. will not put Israel on here birth cert.

i have my opinion on were the borders should be but since I don’t live in Eratz yisroel I don’t state my opinion BUT JERUSALEM BELONGS TO ALL JEWS NOT JUST THE ONES WHO LIVE IN ISRAEL and for the zero to say that jews should not build in Jerusalem is to make parts of Jerusalem judenfrie. the irony is that the one place they are building in was once owned by the grand mufti of Jerusalem the same anti semite and nazi who created one of the largest brances of the s.s. the hanzar division.

506

keithgabryelski Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:43:03pm

re: #500 albusteve

I gave it…govt control of the economy is socialism, doomed to fail and take you down with it…BO does not give a hoot about you…to him you are a source of revenue…if you pay taxes that is

but we are talking about degrees. It isn’t like we are talking about government control of the entire economy, right?

To suggest President Obama “does not give a hoot” about us (collectively) seems ridiculous. Let’s tone down that sort of talk.

He campaigned on universal health care (well, health care reform). There is more than majority support for reform. Let’s get past vilifying our President for doing what he said he would do which is the will of the people.

Back to the discussion. It does not hold that this bill will make the United States socialist — it may be a step in that direction like walking in a southward direction is walking towards Antarctica, but saying I’m going to Antarctica when I’m really walking across the street to the 7-11 seems disingenuous.

507

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:43:24pm

re: #504 Coracle

Hamas will never make peace. They are a different problem.

FATAH will never make peace either it is jsut that they will try to get as much as then can before they start the next intafada

508

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:47:42pm

re: #505 yochanan

if the mir sight of a jew drives the arab anti semite into a blood lust so much for any peace in our life time.

So we should just give up and resign ourselves to another generation of war?

I think a number of the settlements over the last decades were created in intentional antagonism to the peace process - from the Israeli side. I know Israelis, relatives and otherwise who think the same thing - and others who could give Kach a run for its money. The latter group scares me almost as much as Hamas, because they also look unlikely to ever make peace.

509

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:48:00pm

re: #504 Coracle

at the recent FATAH CONVENTION
all of Jerusalem including west Jerusalem is pali
the complete right of return of all arabs
and what is left of Israel can’t be jewish.

510

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:50:51pm

re: #508 Coracle

Islam will never accept a Jewish state as equals to Muslims.

with Iran working towards a nuke and giving major arms and men to Hezbollah and Hamas
with these enemies only a fool would think there will every be peace.

FAT-AH real position isn’t a peace one either.
read there damn convention reports.

511

SFGoth Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:52:50pm

We’re sort of in agreement on Israel here. Time to start the “I told you so” laughing at Jews for whom the denial is slowly lifting.

512

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:53:34pm

re: #509 yochanan

Do you have a link to the final platform that came out of the convention?

513

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:54:01pm

re: #508 Coracle

So we should just give up and resign ourselves to another generation of war?

I think a number of the settlements over the last decades were created in intentional antagonism to the peace process - from the Israeli side. I know Israelis, relatives and otherwise who think the same thing - and others who could give Kach a run for its money. The latter group scares me almost as much as Hamas, because they also look unlikely to ever make peace.

Get real. You yourself stated that Hamas will never make peace. So long as they are in power, Israel should give back…ZERO.
In fact, what evidence is there that Abbas wants peace either, since he talks out of both sides of his mouth by reserving the right to commit acts of terror when deemed appropriate.
Until there is a signed peace treaty and a real de facto peace on the ground, Israel should give back…NOTHING. GORNISHT. BUBKISS.

514

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:56:18pm

re: #513 Spare O’Lake

Who said anything about giving back? Not building a settlement today is not the same as ceding the land.

515

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:00:50pm

re: #514 Coracle

Who said anything about giving back? Not building a settlement today is not the same as ceding the land.

You were talking about some Jewish settlements being contrary to peace. The implication of that statement leads to dismantling them in order to supposedly improve the atmosphere, or some such bullshit.
Sorry if I misunderstood you.

516

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:05:01pm

re: #512 Coracle

fatah convention reports have been published right here in LGF
DON’T PLAY THE DUMMIE ROLE NOW

517

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:05:54pm

re: #514 Coracle

Who said anything about giving back? Not building a settlement today is not the same as ceding the land.

WRONG AGAIN.

518

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:12:35pm

re: #515 Spare O’Lake

You were talking about some Jewish settlements being contrary to peace. The implication of that statement leads to dismantling them in order to supposedly improve the atmosphere, or some such bullshit.
Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I did misunderstand you, didn’t I?
Or are you in favour of gratuitously dismantling more settlements?
Because if you are, then you are fooling yourself if you think that does not amount to giving away the land that those settlements were on.

519

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:15:02pm

re: #515 Spare O’Lake

No worries.re: #516 yochanan

fatah convention reports have been published right here in LGF
DON’T PLAY THE DUMMIE ROLE NOW

Don’t play the smart role when you don’t read the question asked.

I ask the same question in different words - do you have a link to the final, voted upon platform?

I find that information is not on LGF. I was almost literally “born yesterday” on this board. Or rather the day before yesterday,and have been spending most of my time so far in science threads. All I have seen from various sources is reports from and opinions about the convention before voting, and a Reuters report about the numerical election results for individual positions. The LGF thread from a week ago - which I just dug up on your say so - refs another pre-vote Reuters article talking about a draft of the platform.

520

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:17:52pm

re: #518 Spare O’Lake

I did misunderstand you, didn’t I?
Or are you in favour of gratuitously dismantling more settlements?
Because if you are, then you are fooling yourself if you think that does not amount to giving away the land that those settlements were on.

I am not in favor of gratuitously dismantling settlements.

521

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:19:24pm

re: #518 Spare O’Lake

Okay, here’s a link to Fatah final platform of Aug.9/09
[Link: imra.org.il…]
Well? Is there any question of Fatah’s position being inconsisten with peace?

522

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:22:04pm

re: #521 Spare O’Lake

Okay, here’s a link to Fatah final platform of Aug.9/09
[Link: imra.org.il…]
Well? Is there any question of Fatah’s position being inconsisten with peace?

Nope. No question. It’s a non starter.

523

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:22:36pm

re: #521 Spare O’Lake

Thank you for the link, by the way.

524

Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:25:44pm

re: #523 Coracle

Thank you for the link, by the way.

You are welcome.
But you know, that damn thing was all over the news and I Googled it in about 5 seconds.
Cheers.

525

Coracle Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:29:40pm

re: #524 Spare O’Lake

Your google fu must be better than mine, I did exactly the same thing on several different search terms and got only as close as the vote number article.

526

Dustoff-507 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:38:35pm

Sorry Charles.
The GOV should have zero function in this. (end of life) It’s for family only.
As a medic I see enough gov BS to fill a dump truck with. “NDR’s etc”…

It should be a private company only, picked by the family or the person. Once the gov gets in it, you can be damn sure some jerk will look to stick his nose into your life or your family!

527

Dustoff-507 Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:55pm

Charles
You do realize that current health insurance plans are already doing exactly this?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yep and you can sue or look for someone else and yes pay them. If it’s the gov care. Where do you go? (Mexico/ Canada)

528

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:51:59pm

Fatah’s sixth General Assembly has issued several hard-line resolutions,
saying it would not renew peace negotiations with Israel until all
Palestinian prisoners are released from Israeli jails, all
settlement-building is frozen and the Gaza blockade is lifted. It also vowed
to struggle against Israel “until Jerusalem returns to the Palestinians void
of settlers and settlements” and pinned the blame for the 2004 death of
Arafat on Israel.

and these are the so called moderates
defecate in one hand and wish for peace in the other see what gets filled faster.

529

drcordell Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:14:46pm

I smell a primary challenge!

530

yochanan Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:36:39pm

re: #38 Occasional Reader

The Death Panel is nothing short of genocide.

OBAMA = HITLER!

///

even as a joke this isn’t funny.

531

Locker Tue, Aug 11, 2009 8:21:13pm

Just saw this one… interesting.

The “death panels” are already here

Long before anyone started talking about government “death panels” or warning that Obama would have the government ration care, 17-year-old Nataline Sarkisyan, a leukemia patient from Glendale, Calif., died in December 2007, after her parents battled their insurance company, Cigna, over the surgery.

532

Salamantis Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:07:01pm

re: #409 LudwigVanQuixote

Even with a teleprompter she manages to see ignorant and incoherent things. I mean c’mon, her qualification for foreign policy was that she could see Russia?

Sarah Palin never said that. Tina Fey, the Saturday Night Live Palin impersonator, made that joking crack in a skit on the show, and ever since, it has been erroneously attributed to Sarah Palin.

533

Adrenalyn Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:03pm

I just had a phone call where someone said …

this is bullshit
this thread is about a politician who had a phone call from someone he does not know, disparaging Sarah Palin

way to go, score one for the other team

am I the only one to pick up on this
it’s not firsthand information
and should not merit reporting/discussing

forget that he may or may not be a RINO
it’s all rumor from “a caller”

that “caller” could’ve been Rosie Fucking O’donnell

534

ibmkeyboard Wed, Aug 12, 2009 2:05:04am

It doesn’t matter-

40 percent of Republicans still believe Obama is not an American citizen.

I never dreamed being a registered Democrat
would make me feel smarter.

535

American Sabra Wed, Aug 12, 2009 8:37:43am

re: #247 medaura18586

I was at a meteor party last night so sorry I didn’t come back here. (More party than meteor actually).

No one is devoting your life away. We are not communists as much as the Right seems to want us to be for all they talk about it.

I find your thoughts offensive because it goes after the heart of why we’re here in the first place, and that’s to help each other. We have social services in this country because people don’t give or simply can’t give. We had a commissioners meeting in my community a few weeks ago announcing a $200,000 grant for seniors for house repairs. My neighbor hasn’t been able to fix her roof since Katrina. Maybe you think a woman who worked her whole life, whose husband gave his life for this country, who is now on a small fixed income should not get this “charity”. I thank God I’m not that cold hearted.

You don’t like our socialism? That’s fine, then don’t participate. Don’t attend or send your children to public school. Don’t drive on highways or go to libraries or parks or call the fire dept or cops. I’m assuming then you think our defense dept should also be dismantled.

Rich, poor, black, white, religious, secular, in the end the only thing that matters is what you gave back not what you took and hopefully some of it came from your own free will.

536

American Sabra Wed, Aug 12, 2009 8:43:56am

re: #532 Salamantis

Sarah Palin never said that. Tina Fey, the Saturday Night Live Palin impersonator, made that joking crack in a skit on the show, and ever since, it has been erroneously attributed to Sarah Palin.

Wrong! It was in the Charles Gibson interview.

Youtube Video

537

medaura18586 Wed, Aug 12, 2009 9:02:29am

re: #535 American Sabra

I won’t even bother responding to that piece of garbage.

538

reine.de.tout Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:40:40am

re: #536 American Sabra

Wrong! It was in the Charles Gibson interview.

[Video]

Palin said you can see Russia “from land” in Alaska. I think that’s accurate.

If I recall, Tina Fey said something along the lines of “I can see Russia from my front porch” or something, and THAT is the quote that keeps being misattributed to Palin.

539

American Sabra Wed, Aug 12, 2009 8:17:13pm

re: #538 reine.de.tout

Palin said you can see Russia “from land” in Alaska. I think that’s accurate.

If I recall, Tina Fey said something along the lines of “I can see Russia from my front porch” or something, and THAT is the quote that keeps being misattributed to Palin.

You’re picking at straws. Gibson asks, “What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple weeks does the proximity of the state give you?” To paraphrase, how does it reflect on your foreign policy with Russia. She says that Russia is her neighbor and we can see the land mass from Alaska. Tina Fey didn’t pull it out of thin air as Salamantis stated. That she never said it and she clearly did, even if Tina, as a comedian embellished her statement, as comedians do.

540

JohnH Thu, Aug 13, 2009 3:58:14am

Probably won’t see this in a separate post here; Sarah Palin responds:

“Of course, it’s not just this one provision that presents a problem. My original comments concerned statements made by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President’s chief of staff. Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens…An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” [10] Dr. Emanuel has also advocated basing medical decisions on a system which “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.” [11]

President Obama can try to gloss over the effects of government authorized end-of-life consultations, but the views of one of his top health care advisors are clear enough. It’s all just more evidence that the Democratic legislative proposals will lead to health care rationing, and more evidence that the top-down plans of government bureaucrats will never result in real health care reform.”

The whole thing is here: [Link: www.facebook.com…]

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