What Would You Ask About Health Care?

Health • Views: 3,588

LGF reader Keith G. suggested this as a topic; I mentioned it in the earlier thread about Obama’s town hall meeting today. There were some good responses to my question, but they kind of got lost amid the general comments on the meeting.

So here’s another thread, because I really am interested: if you had a chance to ask President Obama one question about his health care reform bill, what would it be?

(Let’s keep it real and keep the snark to a minimum, please. Think of it as an LGF town hall, with some scary giant lizards in exoskeleton suits as bouncers.)

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681 comments
1 Eyes Wide Open  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:11:12pm

How you intend on paying for this "reform"?

2 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:11:25pm

How much choice will I be allowed to have in selecting my doctor? How much choice will my doctor and I have for any treatments/care I might need?

3 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:12:28pm

I would ask, "Mr. President you & others have said that if I like my health plan that I can keep it. If my employer opts for the subsidized public plan due to lower premiiums, how do you suggest that I keep the plan that I like."

4 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:12:46pm

How can you convince those worried about end of life counseling and euthanasia that there is nothing in the bill that's sinister ?

5 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:12:59pm

To Obama, and any congressman and senator who wants to vote for the plan:
Would you commit yourself and your family to use the same health care system as you want to put in place for the rest of us?

6 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:13:23pm
7 sheepdog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:13:47pm

Mr president, Can you guarantee that This system will not be run like the VA system?
We all know what a disaster that Is !

8 Eyes Wide Open  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:14:07pm

Have you read the bill?

9 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:14:11pm

Mr. President,

Yes or no, do you believe that you, personally, know what form of health care arrangements are best for me?

10 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:14:26pm

What parts are mandatory for doctors?
What parts are mandatory for patients?
Can you Opt out?
In the Advanced care section can you refuse the counseling, and if you do what are the consequences?
Will the public option be part of the final bill?
Can you switch doctors?
Can you have non plan surgeries?

11 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:14:37pm
Let’s keep it real and keep the snark to a minimum, please.


Damn.

12 chedgeman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:15:49pm

Sir, will you endorse the plan by putting your family on the plan?

13 molding_perception  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:15:50pm

If the government requires insurers to accept all customers and charge all the same price, regulates all aspects of their marketing to make sure they aren’t discriminating, and then redistributes the profits to make sure that no company gets penalized unfairly, in what sense is the industry still “private”? (via Hot Air).

14 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:15:57pm

Do you intend to implement a program such as NICE and QALY in the UK that approves or denies treatment based on statistical outcomes of a population, rather than what a medical professional believes is the best course for an individual patient?

15 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:16:06pm

1. If the impetus for this is total reform because we are faced with impending doom, why do you say I can keep the health care plan I have right now if that is my choice?

2. Because I do think something ought to happen, wouldn't it be prudent to list out the real problems with the current system and do a complete root cause analysis on them? Once we determine that, we could offer up solutions that may or may not be in the form of new regulation.

3. What is the goal of this anyway? If we clearly understood the goal, perhaps that is a better, more cost efficient way to get there.

16 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:16:32pm

What is the estimated rise in unemployment, and will unemployment benefits be extended to cover those who lost their jobs because their employer couldn't afford this mandate?

17 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:16:40pm

Can you volunteer a Kidney and still be covered?
Will you be able to get supplemental insurance for things not covered?
Are Illegal immigrants covered under the plan?

18 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:17:00pm

I would have to decide from these.

How will it not lead to a single payer system?
How will it address out of control legal costs in medicine?
How will it encourage continued medical R&D?
How will it encourage people to pursue careers in medicine?
How much will it cost?
How will it be paid for?

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:17:17pm

Mr. President,

Are you, as a father, willing to wager your first-born female child that this health care bill will not add to national debt or the Federal deficit?

20 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:17:46pm

re: #16 Sharmuta

What is the estimated rise in unemployment, and will unemployment benefits be extended to cover those who lost their jobs because their employer couldn't afford this mandate?

Will you provide relief to former insurance company employees who lose their jobs when their companies are unable to compete with the public option?

21 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:17:59pm

Why do we need to do this instantaneously?

22 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:18:22pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Damn.

Scary giant lizard in exoskeleton suit to Aisle 11 !

:D

23 Mr. E. Train  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:18:30pm

Show me on paper, with real CBO approved numbers, how you will pay for this.

Show me the exact page in the bill that says how, when I lose my current coverage, I am not forced to accept the 'public option'.

How will the public option avoid becoming the ruin that is the VA system, the Medi-Care system... or anything else the government happens to run.

Why wont my congress'critter automatically be moved to the public option?

24 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:18:40pm

" As recently as 2005 I believe you endorsed the single payer model.
What has caused you to now reject that?"

25 iluvlivia  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:18:57pm

We have seen that, in 2003, you supported and expressed your intent to achieve, a single-payer system. Whom is the single-payer you had in mind?

26 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:18:59pm

re: #6 buzzsawmonkey

Why have you sacrificed clarity for speed?

Yes, that's exactly the right question!

27 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:19:26pm

Are there caps per year, per lifetime?
Are there limits - can anyone be covered, or just people below a certain income?
How will it compare to private plans being offered now?
How much paperwork will be involved?
How many new government employees are needed to oversee this?

28 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:20:01pm

re: #20 doppelganglander

Will you provide relief to former insurance company employees who lose their jobs when their companies are unable to compete with the public option?

Will there be corporate welfare to help companies pay for this mandate?

29 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:20:22pm

re: #16 Sharmuta

To piggy back, has anyone estimated the cost consequences of companies simply paying the fines and dropping coverage for employees all together thereby having more people enroll in the government plan?

30 arethusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:20:23pm

Will this help (or harm) addressing our current shortage of doctors? And how does that shortage affect implementation of your plan? How will you address any problems that arise because of that shortage?

31 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:21:14pm

What will be the effects on rural health care and small clinics?
Will religious organization hospitals qualify under the plan if they refuse to perform abortions?
What are the consequences for a doctor who doesn't take patients under the plan?

32 Flyovercountry  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:21:16pm

President Obama,

I congratulate you on taking on an issue for which you have great passion, but I do have several reservations. In the interest of brevity, I will ask this one question. You have made several statements suggesting that criticisms of this bill are erroneous. Examples include the move to a single payer system, government intervention into the decision making process. After reading the bill however, it is plainly obvious that these things could easily be made possible in the future without further debate or legislation. What is in the bill currently to prevent this, or what ammendments are being added to prevent this?

33 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:23:07pm

Will you say "no" to the Trial Lawyers Association and include genuine tort reform in this or any other bill?

34 HULUGU  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:23:43pm

Mr President--"you think you're lebron--but you're really eddie curry--discuss /snark

35 JacksonTn  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:23:45pm

Who is actually in charge of writing the bill and if there are outside parties involved ... who are the outside parties contributing to the construction of the bill ...

/outside of congress ...

36 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:24:02pm

What about the pink elephant in the room. Are we going to cover illegals/undocumented whatever you want to call them? If so, why and at what cost?

37 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:24:22pm

Why do you want to send government agents to speak to parents, especially low income parents and what standard will be used in their education the well trained agents would use as as basis for the teaching?
Will this be mandatory or can the law be made to make sure it never is.

38 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:24:51pm

" In order to implement your plan & not add to the deficit as you claim, you will have to adjust physician fee schedules. It may be capitation or a hybrid of Diagnostic Review Groupings or another formula. In any case doctor incomes will have to be drastically reduced. How do you intend to entice bright young people to enter Med School when even now there is a shortage?"

39 snowcrash  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:19pm

President Obama, how can you refute specific questions and concerns when there is no final Bill ready for debate?

40 Eyes Wide Open  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:21pm

How do you think Americans feel about the new government plan when told they're un-American?

41 iluvlivia  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:23pm

Today, you stated that "UPS and FedEx are doing fine. It's the Post Office that is always having problems". How is that a ringing endorsement
of government involvement with regard to healthcare?

42 ointmentfly  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:24pm

Barry,

Why would you load another trillion dollars onto our already insane debt, then say " I won't sign a bill that will add to the national debt"? Please reconcile this...and you are not allowed to use "uh" at any point.

43 linemanpaul  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:25:31pm

Boxers or Briefs??, Sorry wrong Lier in Chief

44 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:26:16pm

Why is Pharma making deals on this with you?
Why didn't most of congress know about that?

45 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:26:17pm

Thanos..we may not agree 100% but those are great questions...

46 MJ  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:26:51pm

Will there be parity for patients with Mental Illness?
How will this plan ensure patients with serious mental illness have access to psychiatrists?
How will Mental Illness be defined?
Does drug treatment or alcohol treatment, fall under the rubric of Mental Illness and if so, why?

47 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:27:02pm

On what constitutional grounds does the federal government have to proceed with any form of control over health care?

48 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:27:46pm

What are the impacts and changes to Social Security and SSI?
What are the changes to Medicare?
What kind of tracking database will be used, what will it cost, and how public will it be?

49 wee fury  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:28:00pm

In plain English -- tell me why I should want this legislation.

50 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:28:06pm

1. How can this plan be revenue neutral if you are creating an entirely new government bureaucracy and subsidizing the cost for millions of people?

2. If my current plan does not meet the government's definition of a "qualifying plan" will I have to pay a tax to the treasury every year?

3. Why are businesses mandated to cover 60-72% of their employees premiums or be fined by the government?

4. Will you sign a plan that in any way incorporates Quality-Adjusted Life Years determinations or uses comparative effectiveness determinations that treat the population as a whole instead of patients as individuals?

51 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:28:19pm

Charles, thanks for this thread, it was a great idea.
Excellent questions.

52 snowcrash  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:28:22pm

Sir, I have heard repeatedly that there will be no "rationing " of care. What do you think will happen to the existing system when 45 million more people are added?

53 Mr. E. Train  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:28:27pm

In the UK and Canada mortality rates are higher, waits for simple procedures (MRI's) are much longer and inovations in the medical field are generally stunted.

How will we avoid such problems when the 'public option' is so much like their systems. Please do not answer with "We will do it smarter" or some such thing. Give me specifics.

54 chedgeman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:28:52pm

Sir: once a final bill is developed, will you work with Congress to ensure bipartisan debate?

55 JacksonTn  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:29:35pm

Will there be jail time for those who refuse to pay for health insurance if they have none from their job? ... if they have no money for the government to confiscate? ...

56 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:29:51pm

Umm, how are we going to pay for it?

57 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:30:02pm

How does this affect military health care?

58 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:30:07pm

Really good questions.

Good night.

59 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:30:07pm

Will this require new regulations or restrictions that limit the current boom in boutique and flat fee clinics?

60 sinsremoved  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:30:08pm

Why the hurry?

61 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:30:43pm

I would like to ask what happens to one's ability to purchase private insurance/join another private plan once a person switches employers/moves to another job after this boondoggle is in place.
BTW... if this is not moved along according to the WH's specs in early fall, stand by for the most Wagged Dog Ever before the holidays.

62 meehap  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:31:09pm

1) When we were freelance workers, my wife and I were both refused any insurance of any kind because of pre-existing conditions. Even thought we were both doing fine financially and were well, we couldn't get insurance, and so I took a full-time job in a large company just to get insurance. Will this new system allow more people to leave large companies, and will that have an effect on how employment will be structured in the US?

2) One of the things I noticed when we were uninsured was that all medical procedure costs were *much* higher than expected. I noticed when I got insurance that the insurance company refused to pay these high prices, and the medical companies would settle for the lower amount offered by the insurer. It felt like the medical companies were gaming the system, and placing the burden on uninsured because they were easier to extract large amounts from than insurers. How can we be sure that either insurers or medical companies won't game the public system in the same way?

3) Somebody -- I believe on reason.org -- noted that the more government gets involved in medical care, the more the issue becomes politicised. Do you have suggestions for ensuring a long-term barrier between political decisions (in abortion, alternative healthcare, creationism etc) and medical practice?

63 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:31:14pm

Will the insurance cover experimental and new treatments?

64 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:31:28pm

re: #33 doppelganglander

Will you say "no" to the Trial Lawyers Association and include genuine tort reform in this or any other bill?

I think that's the top question. If this was about confronting the root causes, I could support this legislation. As it seems to me, this is more of the same. The big money wins, government power grows, and what is in the best interests of the American people isn't even considered. We do, in fact, need healthcare reform- but this isn't it.

65 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:31:42pm

"I know that you now disavow the Single Payer Model, but many experts believe that your reform will inevitably lead to it & some of your supporters even admit that this is the intent. Can you point to any single payer system, anywhere that achieves clinical outcomes on a par with the U.S."

66 snowcrash  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:31:50pm

IIRC, Keith G worked for the Obama campaign and became a lizard during the election. Will he be able to forward these thoughtful questions to someone who will answer or just send them to the flag reporting service?

67 Walking_Paycheck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:32:45pm

The health care plan is estimated to cost $1 trillion in the first ten years. Many of the expensive provisions don't take effect right away, lowering the ten-year cost. What will the health care plan cost in its second ten-year span?

68 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:33:38pm

Do you believe health care is a right?

69 humpty dumpty was pushed  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:33:38pm

If we can save money by reducing fraud in our troubled Medicaid and Medicare, why not get started without this cumbersome bill, and why is tort reform off the table? Kinda like immigration...build the fence and then we`ll talk. Show that you can competently operate what we already have and we`ll go on from there.

70 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:34:56pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

How much choice will I be allowed to have in selecting my doctor? How much choice will my doctor and I have for any treatments/care I might need?

Follow up: if I am unsatisfied with my doctor or want additional opinions, how easy will it be for me to select a new doctor or get an independent, second opinion?

71 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:34:59pm

"You often talk about bi-partisanship. Why then were Republicans frozen out of drafting these proposals? Why was it just Democrats behind closed doors?"

72 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:35:05pm

Are you, and congress, willing to accept this same coverage for yourselves?

73 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:35:16pm

Will Al Qaida operatives be automatically covered in the field or will they have to sign up for healthcare?? ((We have already granted them most US constitutional rights already))

74 hebrewtoyou  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:35:18pm

Why does the Federal Gov't need to be involved in healthcare in the first place? Wouldn't it make more sense for each state in the union to create it's own healthcare legislation, thereby giving US citizens the right to vote with their feet?

If California doesn't provide you with the healthcare safety net you need, one need only move to Massachusetts and take advantage of their legislated healthcare.

75 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:35:41pm

re: #68 Racer X

and if so, why? Specifically point to the article that supports this assertion.

76 bnichols10  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:35:50pm

I subscribe to a daily news service from The Intellectual Activist. They have been bouncing this very thing back and forth and came up with these 20 questions:

1. The government has been "reforming" health-care for sixty years—tax breaks for employer-provided health-insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, encouraging HMOs and managed care, and government health-insurance at the state level in Massachusetts, Maine, Oregon. Government health-care has expanded until it is now more than 50% of all health-care spending. Yet after sixty years of government "reform," the problems with health-care are just getting worse. So why should we believe that even more government is the solution?

2. President Obama keeps telling us that he's not trying to get rid of private health insurance. But the bill being debated in Congress would require all new insurance policies to be offered through a government-run exchange, in which the rates that can be charged and the coverage that has to be provided will be dictated by the government's so-called "Health Choices Commissioner." Employer-provided health-insurance will fall under the same regulations in five years. How is this insurance going to be "private" if the government controls everything about it?

3. A video on YouTube shows Barack Obama back in 2003—only six years ago—saying that he is in favor of a "single payer" system. The "single payer" is government, so this means he was in favor of socialized medicine. And just a few weeks ago, Barney Frank—one of the Democratic leaders in the House—said that he considers the current bill a step toward "single payer." So when Obama and the Democrats tell us this bill won't lead to a government takeover of health-care, why should we believe them?

4. Medicare is broke. Social Security is broke. Federal tax receipts are falling, and Congress has already voted on trillions of dollars of stimulus and bailouts in the last year. The national credit card is maxed out. So how can you justify voting for a bill that will require even more money that we don't have?

5. The health-care bill that is being discussed includes huge taxes on businesses to force them to provide more health insurance for their employees, as well as a whole set of mandates telling health insurance companies who they have to cover and what they have to cover them for. This is an enormous increase of costs for businesses and insurers. Have you considered how they're going to pay for all of this, or whether they will even be able to pay for it? How many of these companies will go out of business or lay off more workers after the government forcibly increases their expenses?

6. One of the main demands of the health-care bill is that insurers are required to cover people with "pre-existing conditions." That's like getting insurance on your car after you crash it. It's just a way of getting someone to bail you out for something that has already happened. This isn't insurance, it's a handout. So doesn't that mean that the rest of us will have to pay more for our insurance to absorb the cost of those handouts?

7. The health-care bill will mandate what costs insurance companies have to cover. For example, they will have to pay for routine check-ups and physicals, or they will have to provide every woman with maternity coverage. But what if you don't want to pay for that extra coverage? Right now, if you're young and healthy and don't need frequent check-ups, you can save money with a high-deductible insurance that doesn't cover them. Or if you don't want children, or already have children, you can save money by dropping the maternity rider on your policy. By taking those choices away from us, won't this bill actually make our insurance more expensive, not less?

77 bnichols10  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:35:58pm

8. A lot of people have been upset about Congress passing bills that they haven't had time to read—and they haven't even finished writing the health-care bill yet. But what I want to know is, with a bill this big and complex, have you taken the time to read it and understand it? Can you really say that anyone has had the time to figure out how all the parts will work together and what all of the consequences will be? With a bill this big, is it even possible to figure out all of that and really know what you're voting for?

9. President Obama and the Democratic leadership are making us a lot of promises about what we will get and what we won't get from this health-care bill. But what is or isn't in this one particular bill is not the end of the story. For example, how many times has Medicare changed over the last forty years? As more and more of us become dependent on the government for our health-care coverage, won't we have to worry about what some future Congress or some future bureaucrat will decide to cover or not cover?

10. The defenders of the health-care bill claim that it's going to lead to all sorts of savings, not by actually cutting any services or denying care, but just by finding "inefficiencies" that will save money. Do you think this is remotely plausible? When has anybody ever said, "This project has to be lean and efficient—let's get the government do it"?

11. One of the ways that has been proposed for government-provided health insurance to save money is by substituting Medicare reimbursement rates for market rates when paying doctors and hospitals. But many private hospitals and medical practices have said that if they have to accept these lower rates, they can't cover their expenses, and they will go out of business. So doesn't this bill guarantee an immediate shortage of doctors and medical services?

12. Medicare cuts costs by paying lower rates to doctors and hospitals, who then shift these costs to those of us with private health insurance, who get charged higher rates. But if the government takes over and starts dictating Medicare reimbursement rates for everyone, who will the costs get shifted to then?

13. When the government starting portraying people in the financial industry as villains and started limiting their pay and subjecting them to more regulations, banks reported a "brain drain" as smart and well-educated people left the industry or went overseas looking for better pay and less stress. But the term "brain drain" was originally coined in the 1960s when doctors and medical researchers left Britain to escape socialized medicine. Aren't you afraid we might see the same kind of brain drain from the medical profession here in America?

14. Do you know the meaning and significance of the term "quality adjusted life year"? (For this question, you will need the answer, which you can supply if your congressman is forced to admit that he doesn't know it—preferable after some stammering and a long, awkward pause. "Quality adjusted life year" is a term used under socialized medicine to determine whether elderly patients are allowed to get expensive drugs or treatments, depending on some bureaucrat's calculation of how many good years they have left. You should ask your congressman: Can you assure us that the same thing won't happen here?)

78 bnichols10  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:36:15pm

15. One of the proposals for how the government is going to save money is that it's going to have a panel of medical experts who will dictate from Washington, DC, what the proper medical practices are that should be paid for, and what practices are supposedly "wasteful" and "unnecessary." Won't this mean interfering with decisions that would normally be made by me and my doctor? And won't this discourage innovation by requiring any new idea to get approved by a board of establishment "experts" before a doctor can even try it out?

16. Government-run health-care is not some new, untested idea. In Britain, it has led to a "postcode lottery," where the medical procedures you are allow to get depend on where you live. In Canada, it has led to a shortage of doctors and waiting lists for major surgeries. In America, Medicare ended up costing far, far morethan anyone expected. Massachusetts and Maine spent enormous amounts of money to extend government coverage to very few people. The Oregon Health Plan may not cover your cancer treatment—but it will cover assisted suicide. Given all of this experience, what makes you think that somehow this will be the exception that will avoid all of the problems that government health-care has always led to?

17. Why does "reform" always mean more government? Are you aware of proposals that have been put forward for free-market reforms of health care? Congress has already approved Health Savings Accounts, where individuals buy their own high-deductible health insurance and save money tax-free, which they can use for their out-of-pocket health-care expenses. This gives people more control over their spending on routine medical treatments while keeping them covered for a serious illness, and it allows them to keep their health insurance if they change jobs. But this program has been limited in size. Are you open to ideas like this, for free-market reform of health-care?

18. A lot of doctors say that medical malpractice insurance is what is really driving up health-care costs. Doctors have to charge more to cover their expenses, and they also have to practice "defensive medicine," ordering unnecessary extra tests just to make sure they can defend themselves in court if something goes wrong. So why isn't tort reform—for example, limiting excessive jury awards in malpractice lawsuits—being considered as part of health-care reform?

19. What part of your decision on this bill, if any, is affected by a consideration for liberty, individual rights, and the Constitution? Would you consider opposing this bill for no other reason than because it gives more power to government at the expense of the freedom and property rights of private businesses and individuals? Would you consider opposing it simply because it grants powers to the government that are not authorized anywhere in the Constitution?

20. Thomas Jefferson said, "A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." Notice what is not on his list: government-provided housing, or government-provided food, or government-provided health care. And Jefferson's views on the role of government were widely shared by America's Founding Fathers. So my question is: Please explain where you disagree with the vision of our Founding Fathers, and why.

79 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:36:22pm

okay..I got snarky..but the joke was valid!!

80 Pickles  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:36:23pm

Like others I would ask how we are going to pay for this not only currently, but going forward in 20, 30, 40 years.

81 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:36:34pm
82 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:36:54pm

Does this coverage include long term care/ assisted living facility/SNF? If so, for how long and in exchange for what? Will all property and other assets be seized?

83 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:37:04pm

Earlier today, you compared the US Postal Service to FedEx and UPS. With regard to private enterprise competing with a government service, you said, “They do it all the time. If you think about it, UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems.” How does it help your cause to liken it to an organization that lost $2.4 billion last quarter and is notorious for providing poor service?

84 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:37:47pm

Lawhawk posted these 10 questions earlier today:

Top questions I'd like to see asked and answered:
1) How is it that you can put together a health care bill without knowing how to pay for it? As admitted by Members of Congress (Ben Cardin), no one knows how this will all be paid for. Wouldn't it make more sense to know first where the money comes from and design a system than try and throw everything and the kitchen sink and realize later you have to raise taxes?
2) Where are you drawing the line on the income level of those who will see an increase in their taxes as a result of this plan?
3) Is there a penalty for people opting not to obtain health insurance, and what is the thinking behind limiting personal choice in that fashion. After all, if that person doesn't want to pay for the health insurance, and is penalized, that's a back-door tax.
4) How much will this realistically cost, given that every other government program has gone staggeringly over cost projections.
5) How long will I have under my existing program until the government health care forces me into the public plan.
6) Why should public health care improve quality when we've got examples from other countries where care becomes far more restrictive and quality of care is substandard in US gov't health care programs like the Indian Health Service and the VA.
7) Cash for clunkers anyone? If you can't manage a $1 (now $3) billion program adequately, how can anyone expect the government to do a better job with a significant portion of the US GNP. No one understood how many vehicles were in the pipeline for rebates or where the balance stood. The same can apply to the billions utilized under TARP. How can you manage costs when the government can't even keep track of the money on its books.
8) One of the big selling points you've made is that this will be cost effective and save money. How exactly can you make that argument when not even the CBO buys it?
9) Medicare and Medicaid are prime examples of government health care programs run amok. They're tens of billions of dollars in debt, and yet this program would apparently expand both significantly, all while further constraining the charges - something has to give.
10) What is the specific reasoning behind your demand that health care reform had to be completed by August recess? After all, access to health care isn't ending at that (or any point), and we've been living with this system for decades. The demand to have this change practically overnight, with limited debate - and without reading - suggests that you are less than honest in what your ultimate aim is here.

85 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:38:02pm

"Mr.President, how angry were you when you could not sneak this dog through before the August Recess?"

86 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:38:21pm

How many generations thinking that the government is the alternative to personal responsibility do you expect to create by providing health care .
Do you think it will be more than FDR convinced they where incapable of self-reliance with the New Deal?

87 wintercat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:38:29pm

The post office is always having trouble
Let me try that again. The money quote comes at around .51 sec.

88 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:38:44pm

A real question...


Since you are known for your expansive abortion beliefs and where the point life begins, will abortion be classified as simple surgery by the bill or will it remain under it's own classification??

89 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:38:55pm

Do you believe it is moral to use the force of law to mandate that every person legally residing in the USA be made purchase a specific product from a for-profit private company?

90 wintercat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:39:05pm

Sheesh. I hate trying to embed videos. I really stink at technology.

91 agarrett  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:39:34pm

Here's one from me. "Government programs have often managed to long outlive their usefulness, or to keep going in the case of obvious failure. Would you be willing to build in a failure condition to the health care plan, in which case the plan would be canceled? What would that failure condition be?"

92 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:39:44pm

re: #68 Racer X

Do you believe health care is a right?

If yes, why?

*If it requires someone else's time, energy, or money, then it is not your "right" to have it.

93 JacksonTn  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:40:12pm

re: #82 ArmyWife

Does this coverage include long term care/ assisted living facility/SNF? If so, for how long and in exchange for what? Will all property and other assets be seized?

AW ... that can already happen ... some states do not enforce it but more and more are ... if you have a parent or loved one who you feel is going to be in need of those services I would look for an Elder Law attorney and get an irrevocable trust set up ... there is a look back of I believe 3 years (or there was) ... so you need to do it early as possible ... you can transfer their assets to a family member or anyone you trust to be the trustee ... it is the only thing right now that will keep the person from losing everything except a very small amount ... if the spouse is still alive I believe the spouse can live in the home until they pass and then it would also go to the state ... sure there is more but this is what I know about it ...

94 ointmentfly  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:40:19pm

Everybody on this blog has been bought and paid for by the insurance industry... whatsamatter... hoarse from all the townhalls last week???

Barry///

95 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:40:44pm

re: #77 bnichols10

Now there's a gem:

10. The defenders of the health-care bill claim that it's going to lead to all sorts of savings, not by actually cutting any services or denying care, but just by finding "inefficiencies" that will save money. Do you think this is remotely plausible? When has anybody ever said, "This project has to be lean and efficient—let's get the government do it"?

96 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:40:50pm

"Sir if you believe in the public sector competeing with the private sector , why is it illegal for any entity but the Postal Servces tio deliver First Class Mail?"

97 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:40:56pm

Can you explain your contempt for those who disagree with you at the public forums and expand as to why they deserve to be singled out??

98 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:41:01pm

Isn't health care above your pay grade?

99 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:41:09pm

re: #78 bnichols10

Thank you for posting that. I actually read every bit of it, and I think that covers the spectrum.

100 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:41:10pm

re: #93 JacksonTn

Oh I know. I was just curious how that would change. But thank you for offering up suggestions and caring about me!

101 iluvlivia  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:41:19pm

Isn't this broad, sweeping reform throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Wouldn't it be much less disruptive and expensive to isolate areas that are insufficient, ineffective or other, and go from there?

102 Cathypop  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:42:09pm

Why does our health care system need to be changed? And please use facts to answer this question.

103 wintercat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:42:40pm

Ok, my question. You reasoned today that the reason that Congress won't sign on to this health care plan is because they already have a great plan. Well, I do too. Why am I supposed to give up my plan when my elected officials are not required to?

104 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:42:42pm

re: #94 ointmentfly

Everybody on this blog has been bought and paid for by the insurance industry... whatsamatter... hoarse from all the townhalls last week???

Barry///


Charles has orderd us a football shaped bus and some matching tee shirts.

We gonna take this to the man!

105 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:42:58pm

Mr. President, will you guarantee the American people that your health care plan will do these three things?

1. No person will be refused medical care because the cost to value equation is deemed not good enough to provide treatment?

2. The government plan will in no way interfere with a persons right to choose and pay for any health care procedure or insurance plan that they desire?

3. Health care funding will be second on the budget priority only to the defense of the country.

106 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:43:08pm

I just got here to this thread, so, maybe someone asked this, but...

Why is there no tort reform anywhere in the proposals?

107 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:43:08pm

re: #102 Cathypop

Why does our health care system need to be changed? And please use facts to answer this question.

Follow up question:

Isn't it really tort reform that is needed?

108 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:44:08pm

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

re: #107 Racer X

GMTA (but, my mind is sick, so...)

109 researchok  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:44:25pm

Why not phase in the plan, starting with prenatal to age 12 and from 65 years of age and up? Those groups expend a disproportionate amount of healthcare dollars.

This way, if there are any problems, they can be addressed on a more manageable scale.

110 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:44:34pm

re: #107 Racer X

Obama thinks "tort reform" means to add more whip cream

111 cronus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:44:56pm

Why does all this reform need to be considered so expeditiously and all at once? Why can't we do a bill around portability, pre-existing conditions, electronic medical records, allowing small biz to pool shop for coverage and the other areas where there is some real bipartisan support?

112 redshirt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:45:02pm

If the government mishandles my case or commits some form of malpractice, or denies a procedure, can I sue for damages?

113 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:45:05pm

Why does the plan start after you leave office??

114 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:45:34pm

Here's is my primary problem with nationalized health care:

It forces me to pay for other people's bad heath, bad diet, and bad lifestyle decisions.

Thus, I unwillingly become involved in other people's behavior and thoughts, which I don't want to do.

Over 50% (and probably way over that) of "health problems" in this country are not due to unavoidable genetic or environmental influences, but rather due to entirely preventable consequences of people's ill-considered behavior.

Main culprit: Bad diet, which leads to all sort of known problems, including (but not limited to) obesity, diabetes, clogged arteries, heart attacks, strokes, lowered immune system, kidney damage, deficiency syndromes, etc. etc. etc.

Another culprit: Abuse of legal recreational intooxicants, primarily tobacco and alcohol, which lead to a whole litany of well-known problems, including cancer, liver failure, emphysema, car accidents, yadda yadda yadda.

More: Abuse of illegal drugs, which leads to AIDS, dental problems, psychological problems, dependency, and putting oneself in harm's way, etc. etc.

And: Risky behavior, criminal behavior, stupid behavior, with innumerable unpretty consequences.

And more: Promiscuity, leading to a litany of STDs.

And: lack of exercise, being a bozo, playing with guns, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ...

All these things combined are the cause of much of our health care expenses.

Yes, there are the unavoidables: genetic illnesses, viruses caught in crowds, inescapable accidents, and so on. But I once saw that preventable medical distress is over half our of problem.

And yet: I will be financially liable for other people's bad decisions/habits/behavior.

If I choose to lead a healthy and safe life (which I do), then I can minimize my health expenditures (which I do) because I only need rudimentary catastroohic coverage which costs comparatively little; beyond that, I have sub-minimal out-of-pocket expenses. I can choose the least expensive heath-care option, as a benefit of trying and succeeding at staying healthy.

But if we're all in one big plan together, then I must pay -- through my taxes -- for the average of everyone else's costs. Because nationalized health care is funded by the govt which is funded by me (and you).

A close analogy is this:

I go to a restaurant with a group of friends. We all agree to share the bill. I order one beer and a side of french fries. Everyone else order margaritas, steaks, lobster, and fancy desserts. When the check comes, I've got to fork out $50 as my share of the tab, even though I in no way came close to getting $50 worth of food and drink.

That's nationalized health care on a micro scale.

But what's most disturbing of all is that, because I am now conscious that I am paying for everyone else's bad health, I suddenly become allowed/conscious/compelled to meddle in other people's behavior. Which, frankly, I don't want to do. I want to "live and let live." But under nationalized health care, if I see an obese mother feeding her obese 4-year-old a bunch of sugary greasy fast food, I will feel compelled to (and in a sense I would have the right to) say to her, "Hey lady, I'll be paying for your kid's diabetes complications for the rest of his short life. Stop that!" I'll walk down the street slapping cigarettes out of people's hands, because I don't want to subsidize their cancer treatments later. And so on and so on. And they'll have the right to boss me around and criticize me for my bad behavior.

I don't want to live in that kind of society! I want people to be free to be stupid if they want - - as long as it's their responsibility to deal with the consequences.

Nationalized health care inevitably leads to a nanny-state society. Count me out.

115 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:45:40pm

how was Big Pharm bought off...what is their cut?

116 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:46:06pm

I really want to know three things, so I would ask:

1. Any insurance, even a nationalized one is impacted by malpractice actions. Would you be willing to look into tort reform as a way to curb all medical costs by capping how much people could sue for, and more importantly, allowing procedures and standards of care to be written more a medical standpoint and less to a CYA standard to prevent possibly getting sued?

2. Who is doing the actuarial work and determining standards of coverage? What will be covered in the plan?

3. How is the plan underwritten?

117 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:46:07pm

If your life depended on it,would you order for overnight delivery a life saving drug with the U.S. postal service,or Fed-Ex,or UPS?

118 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:46:09pm

"It is a fact that most people are happy with their health coverage.
The problem is the uninsured, those without employer coverage & unqualified for Medicare or Medicaid. Why do a radical overhaul?
Why not insted address the uninsured population with generous stop loss provisions , so that their true out of pocket exposure would be on a par with the insured population?"

119 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:46:10pm

re: #107 Racer X

Follow up question:

Isn't it really tort reform that is needed?

An interesting aside to this question. There are two well know Denver lawyers that have a AM talk show on every afternoon from 3-6, drive time, big deal slot. One is a conservative and one is a progressive.

Callers can't get neither of them to address that question on the show. They always have some sort of answer that it is really a small part of the issue.

My ass it is.

120 far_right  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:46:16pm

I want the same coverage at the same price as all of the senators and congress members have. Also the retirment plan at what they pay for it.

121 jamgarr  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:46:33pm

Today you accused insurance companies of discriminating against people for various reasons such as pre-existing condition. Do you believe that government should act to restructure any existing contracts other than insurance contracts? If so, what is the legal basis for doing so?

122 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:46:58pm

re: #120 far_right
You probably do not have your lips tattooed on the proper ass for that!

123 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:47:12pm

what leverage can Pelosi apply to the Blue Dogs?

124 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:47:20pm

re: #114 zombie

What if we bought health insurance like we buy car insurance? If our premiums went up because of other people's accidents, we would have a cow about this. If our insurance goes up or is dropped because of 18 DWIs, well, that is our fault, now isn't it?

125 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:47:42pm

re: #123 albusteve
She will call out their state militias and attack

126 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:47:55pm

re: #120 far_right

I want the same coverage at the same price as all of the senators and congress members have. Also the retirment plan at what they pay for it.

That WE pay for.

127 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:48:19pm

re: #126 n in wi

re: #120 far_right


That WE pay for.


and that is why they love it sooo much

128 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:48:20pm

With the passage of any such bill, the federal government would then have a vested interest in reducing health care costs via reducing services, or the need for services. Would this result in the regulation of what foods an individual is permitted to eat, or the amount of any given food for that matter? Will the amount of exercise, hygiene, and/or good housekeeping be regulated to ensure that individuals covered are prevented, by law, from engaging in getting sick and/or hurt?

129 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:48:44pm

re: #93 JacksonTn

AW ... that can already happen ... some states do not enforce it but more and more are ... if you have a parent or loved one who you feel is going to be in need of those services I would look for an Elder Law attorney and get an irrevocable trust set up ... there is a look back of I believe 3 years (or there was) ... so you need to do it early as possible ... you can transfer their assets to a family member or anyone you trust to be the trustee ... it is the only thing right now that will keep the person from losing everything except a very small amount ... if the spouse is still alive I believe the spouse can live in the home until they pass and then it would also go to the state ... sure there is more but this is what I know about it ...

In at least some states, there is a certain amount that can be kept, and the person's primary place of residence (their home) is one of them. If the home is sold, though, the cash has to be used before other programs kick in

130 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:48:48pm

re: #125 quiet man

She will call out their state militias and attack

they can take her down over this reform bill...do they want to?

131 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:49:22pm

re: #114 zombie

And we thought a zombie trying to eat your brain was bad.

132 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:49:34pm

re: #114 zombie

Or you could look at it the other way and say that sometimes, you are helping out good folks who live right, and need care anyway that they couldn't afford otherwise.

You are going to have a hard time convincing me that if we couldn't have afforded to help Grandma when she got cancer, we should have just lumped it, or that she deserved care less than someone else.

133 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:49:40pm

re: #120 far_right

I want the same coverage at the same price as all of the senators and congress members have. Also the retirment plan at what they pay for it.

excellent!

134 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:49:53pm

re: #123 albusteve

Tons. For starters their legislation and earmarks never make it out of committee.

135 bnichols10  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:50:01pm

re: #99 doppelganglander

Unfortunatley I suspect that any politician, D or R, would not give you an honest answer on most of the questions.

136 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:50:20pm

re: #108 Walter L. Newton

re: #107 Racer X

GMTA (but, my mind is sick, so...)

Down to the second no less.

137 keithgabryelski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:50:46pm

Here are my questions (copied from the town hall thread):

1) Exactly what is wrong with the way things currently are
2) What is the closest currently working system that is like the one you are proposing that we can examine for its cost/benefits
3) How are you going to ensure this is deficit neutral.
4) What negative side effects have you/your advisers calculated may occur because of these new laws/programs put into place.
5) What feedback loops are in place to ensure changes are made if these programs are not deficit neutral or serious unknown side effects are seen.
6) Before passing the bill, will you create a line item by line item assessment of what each problem a line item solves and what concerns it brings. Will you review these assessments yearly after the law passes?

138 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:50:50pm

My question would be, What does government intervention in AIG, GM, housing, and now healthcare do to preserve America's freedom?

139 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:51:07pm

Mr. President,
When will you speak out publicly about the violent behavior of the SEIU Union for attacking a man who was peacefully handing out flags as a form of protest to your plan?

140 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:51:12pm

re: #124 ArmyWife

What if we bought health insurance like we buy car insurance? If our premiums went up because of other people's accidents, we would have a cow about this. If our insurance goes up or is dropped because of 18 DWIs, well, that is our fault, now isn't it?

You car insurance premiums do go up (and sometimes down) dependent on other people's accidents and other people crimes.

A simple fact, you premium can be larger just because you live in a certain zip code where the crime rate is high, or the amount of accidents are higher.

141 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:51:21pm

re: #134 Thanos

Tons. For starters their legislation and earmarks never make it out of committee.

they go public and crossover...Pelosi is not invincible, just depends on how hefty their nads are

142 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:51:30pm

After health care, will you be going after the food industries. After all you could use the same arguments about tr being a right and everyone deserves it. It worked for housing and heath care.

143 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:51:50pm

re: #60 sinsremoved
Since you asked... checked TOTUS and discovered this software preloaded and ready to respond rapidly to just such questions... for example...
[Link: www.kiefer-rocks.com...]
[Link: www.kiefer-rocks.com...]
[Link: www.kiefer-rocks.com...]

144 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:52:21pm

re: #141 albusteve

they go public and crossover...Pelosi is not invincible, just depends on how hefty their nads are

Right now I am betting they flip after return from recess. We'll have to wait and see, but I'm hoping I am thoroughly wrong.

145 LotharBot  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:52:25pm

1) Mr. President, can you give a clear justification for why our health care plans should be tied to (and limited by) the choices our employer or the government want to supply? Can you give a clear justification for laws that disallow insurance companies from offering plans to customers in other states? If not, will you commit to tearing down the regulatory barriers that limit our choice to only a few plans instead of allowing a whole host of insurers to compete for my health care dollars?

2) Mr. President, will your health care plan force care providers to clearly explain the price of their procedures beforehand, like those in every other industry must do?

146 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:52:28pm

re: #16 Sharmuta

What is the estimated rise in unemployment, and will unemployment benefits be extended to cover those who lost their jobs because their employer couldn't afford this mandate?

Will unemployed people over 50 be offered "end of life" counseling as part of their unemployment benefits?

147 duck of peace  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:52:28pm

These are completely rhetorical questions. Maybe its good as a cathartic exercise. Unfortunately, when the opposition can see no government program as too big or any personal freedom as too dear to usurp, there really isn't ANY questions to be asked. Seriously. How do you convince a religious zeolot? How do you convince someone who sees you as a lesser person?

I feel like this is an exercise in democracy like High School student leadership is an exercise in Democracy: A complete act. If I seriously had a chance to ask the president about healthcare reform, I wouldn't do it. There is literally no dialouge possible with this administration. I feel completly and utterly impotent.

Maybe that is why people are coming to these things only to disrupt them. While I totally disagree with their actions and tone; on the other hand I am at a loss as to how I or any "regular" person could convince them of anything.

148 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:52:34pm

"Sir do you see any other societal inequitites that you plan to correct by ristribution of resources?"

149 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:52:41pm

re: #132 LudwigVanQuixote

Or you could look at it the other way and say that sometimes, you are helping out good folks who live right, and need care anyway that they couldn't afford otherwise.

You are going to have a hard time convincing me that if we couldn't have afforded to help Grandma when she got cancer, we should have just lumped it, or that she deserved care less than someone else.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just stating my opinion.

You ignore mine. I'll ignore yours. Everybody's happy.

150 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:52:46pm

re: #111 cronus

Why does all this reform need to be considered so expeditiously and all at once? Why can't we do a bill around portability, pre-existing conditions, electronic medical records, allowing small biz to pool shop for coverage and the other areas where there is some real bipartisan support?

I love the idea of small business co-opts for insurance. At this point- mandating insurance onto all employers will put my boss out of business. Until the economy turns around, he can't afford it. What really seems endemic at this point is Washington's view of money. They are wasteful, and never think of the real world consequences of passing the buck on to others to cope. But I digress. There are much smaller reforms we could tackle first to try to save money, not spend more of it that we don't have.

151 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:53:12pm

I can't understand how a thinking rationale person could want the government anywhere near their healthcare after what has happened with Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans Hospitals? You can not trust the government. I and thousands of other military personnel were promised free health care for life if we would spend 20 years in the service of the country. When it became expensive, the government sued and the courts said it wasn't a contract, DON'T TRUST the Government

152 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:53:16pm

re: #109 researchok

Why not phase in the plan, starting with prenatal to age 12 and from 65 years of age and up? Those groups expend a disproportionate amount of healthcare dollars.

This way, if there are any problems, they can be addressed on a more manageable scale.

How are all the current government insurance plans working out?

153 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:53:31pm

Based on the failure for goverment to properly manage programs like the Postal Service, the IRS, the SEC, Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac, Social Security, and countless other Federal programs, plus the utter failure of goverment managed Healthcare systems around the world, what proof do you have that Obamacare would improve services while cutting costs?

154 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:53:56pm

OT: Right wing extremist...
Chris Matthews Unloads On Protester Who Carried Gun To Obama Event

Youtube Video

Ron Paul!

155 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:54:15pm

"Sir, you do have a lot more stuff than me. Is that fair?"

156 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:54:16pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

I would argue we could move to a lower crime area to lower the cost. I do understand our premiums are made up in part of covering costs the insurance companies may face, but if I have no tickets, and you have 25 tickets and we are neighbors, your premiums are MUCH higher than mine. It was a simplified analogy, I admit.

157 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:54:28pm

re: #144 Thanos

Right now I am betting they flip after return from recess. We'll have to wait and see, but I'm hoping I am thoroughly wrong.

I tend to agree...a seat in the House is a powerful reason to tow the line

158 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:54:53pm

Based on the massive failures of Medicaid due to the states that administer it, why is a Federal Version likely to succeed?

159 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:55:02pm

If I choose to purchase only catastrophic care/major medical insurance and pay routine expenses out-of-pocket, will I be able to do so?

160 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:55:03pm

re: #155 opnion

"Sir, you do have a lot more stuff than me. Is that fair?"

"We won. Next question!"

161 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:55:23pm

re: #148 opnion

[Link: www.kiefer-rocks.com...]

162 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:55:26pm

re: #147 duck of peace

While they may go unanswered, many are legitimate and not rhetorical at all.

163 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:56:31pm

re: #128 Dan G.

With the passage of any such bill, the federal government would then have a vested interest in reducing health care costs via reducing services, or the need for services. Would this result in the regulation of what foods an individual is permitted to eat, or the amount of any given food for that matter? Will the amount of exercise, hygiene, and/or good housekeeping be regulated to ensure that individuals covered are prevented, by law, from engaging in getting sick and/or hurt?

Or, if I am required to pay the bulk of my employee's policies, shouldn't I have a right to "regulate" their personal lifestyle choices to keep my cost down?

164 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:56:40pm

" you do not seem that versed in the actual provisions. Who is the driving force behind this proposal? Could you offer more specifisity?

165 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:56:54pm

re: #146 Alouette

Will unemployed people over 50 be offered "end of life" counseling as part of their unemployment benefits?

NO,No,No, I wanna answer that one. Don't want folks thinkn' I gotta buncha plants here.
After my first term is up, I will be over 50 and unemployed,so yes counseling of all types will be available.
BHO

166 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:57:14pm

Personally, as a conservative, I'm not interested in what answers Obama has for any of these question. Considering that health care was a campaign promise, and possibly the lynchpin of his administration, why would anyone expect an honest answer from him or an answer that would require him to change any direction from his stated goals?

I want to questions the REPUBLICANS in the House and Congress and ask them one simple question, "What are you doing to make sure that this goes down in defeat?" I want my conservative representative to have all the right questions (and answers).

That's what I want.

167 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:57:25pm

re: #160 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

"We won. Next question!"

Mr Obama?...who's on first?

168 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:57:33pm

re: #160 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

"We won. Next question!"

Dragged out by SEIU Peace keepers.

169 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:57:52pm

re: #139 WinterCat

Mr. President,
When will you speak out publicly about the violent behavior of the SEIU Union for attacking a man who was peacefully handing out flags as a form of protest to your plan?

Those SEIU people acted stupidly.

170 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:58:02pm

Are those cute little panties advertised on the front page be covered under this plan?

171 researchok  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:58:35pm

re: #152 debutaunt

How are all the current government insurance plans working out?

Well said. If we can't deliver mail on budget, how can goverment be expected to deliver healthcare without busting the budget?

After India Rail and the Chinese Army, The NHS in Britain is the largest employer in the world- most of whom are managers.

172 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:58:40pm

re: #169 debutaunt

Those SEIU people acted stupidly.

Beers at the White House!

173 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:59:11pm

Where in this legislation can I find mechanisms to detect and stem fraud and abuse?

174 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:59:38pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

What an idiot -- this guy's probably dangerous considering that he was going to a presidential event with that sign and a gun.

175 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:59:59pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

Personally, as a conservative, I'm not interested in what answers Obama has for any of these question. Considering that health care was a campaign promise, and possibly the lynchpin of his administration, why would anyone expect an honest answer from him or an answer that would require him to change any direction from his stated goals?

I want to questions the REPUBLICANS in the House and Congress and ask them one simple question, "What are you doing to make sure that this goes down in defeat?" I want my conservative representative to have all the right questions (and answers).

That's what I want.

agreed...why is there not unanimous nay voting across the board?...what is the price being paid to support the bailout?...wtf?

176 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:00:20pm

"Sir is David Axlerod standing in the back of the room feeding you answers with his blackberry?"

177 RebelDebater  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:00:22pm

I would start with

"Is there a tort problem in the current system?"

IF he says yes

"How would you fix it?"

If he says no...well he'll be cooked by opponents

178 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:00:30pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

Where in this legislation can I find mechanisms to detect and stem fraud and abuse?

it's not there

179 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:00:36pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

OT: Right wing extremist...
Chris Matthews Unloads On Protester Who Carried Gun To Obama Event

[Video]Ron Paul!

Here's his myspace page .
He lists White Supremacist Randy Weaver as one of his heroes.

180 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:01:06pm

See ya

181 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:01:18pm

Do you think the SEIU thugs that beat up Kenneth Gladney "Acted stupidly"?

182 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:01:46pm

The hell with asking him any questions, the chances of his answer being a lie just went up again...

[]

President Obama today suggested that the health care reform legislation for which he’s pushing has been endorsed by the American Association of Retired Person.

“We have the AARP on board because they know this is a good deal for our seniors,” the president said.

At another point he said: “Well, first of all, another myth that we've been hearing about is this notion that somehow we're going to be cutting your Medicare benefits. We are not. AARP would not be endorsing a bill if it was undermining Medicare, okay?”

The problem?

The AARP hasn't endorsed any plan yet.

[Link: blogs.abcnews.com...]

[]

Of course, this was said at the town hall meeting, for millions of people to hear. There is no way this man would be mistaken on a point like this. He had to know it was a lie.

183 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:01:59pm

re: #179 Killgore Trout

Here's his myspace page .
He lists White Supremacist Randy Weaver as one of his heroes.

Are you sure that's the right page? That guy's in AZ?

184 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:02:09pm

re: #114 zombie

In a sense, you already are paying for other people's stupid decisions through your insurance premiums. Actuarial methods are used to calculate risk and set premiums accordingly. So if you have employer-provided health insurance and your lard-butt co-worker needs a quadruple bypass, your premiums may go up, depending on the size of your group. I saw this in action when I worked (as a temp with no benefits) for a small city government. One gall bladder removal and one heart attack in the same year almost caused their insurance carrier to drop them.

185 1SG(ret)  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:02:54pm

re: #151 retief_99
I kept hitting the darn upding button, but it would only register once...SORRY!

186 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:03:08pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

The boilerplate FWA (Fraud, Waste, and Abuse) provisions can be found in the appendix.

/ ;)

187 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:03:21pm

re: #182 Walter L. Newton


Of course, this was said at the town hall meeting, for millions of people to hear. There is no way this man would be mistaken on a point like this. He had to know it was a lie.

I believe their lobbyists gave him assurances they would support the bill. Their mouthpieces on television certainly give that impression. They only sent out emails last week claiming they don't endorse it when their members started asking for refunds.

188 brumor  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:03:23pm

My wife is a 6 year survivor of Ovarian Cancer. The chemos and associated testing, Dr's etc run several thousands of dollars per month. At age 77, will this proposed program cover her? Yes or No. Maybe is not an acceptable answer.

189 yesandno  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:03:40pm

If one can keep current coverage, why are those who don't have current coverage prevented from purchasing private coverage once the government plan goes into effect?

If you are on the government programs...which may be restricted to cover your condition based upon your age, etc. ...why would they not allow you to purchase additional coverage for yourself? The answer seems to be to eliminate private coverage.

190 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:03:40pm

re: #185 1SG(ret)

I am sorry I don't know what upding means.

191 duck of peace  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:04:04pm

re: #162 ArmyWife

While they may go unanswered, many are legitimate and not rhetorical at all.


most of these questions are quite legitimate, in fact I really haven't seen a question on here that I wouldn't myself like to see answered. What I meant by rhetorical was the process itself...I get the distinct impression that the decision has been. It is not a conversation. A conversation would mean feedback, equality, and respect for all participants.

192 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:04:07pm

If it where you that where offering "end of life counseling", what would you have said to the Kennedy and Shriver family last week?

193 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:04:10pm

re: #167 albusteve

Mr Obama?...who's on first?

Yes.

194 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:04:16pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

Where in this legislation can I find mechanisms to detect and stem fraud and abuse?

Sharm,

TITLE VI—PROGRAM INTEGRITY
7 Subtitle A—Increased Funding To
8 Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse
9 SEC. 1601. INCREASED FUNDING AND FLEXIBILITY TO
10 FIGHT FRAUD AND ABUSE.

Page 685

195 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:04:45pm

re: #191 duck of peace

I agree. Chances of getting answers to these questions are slim to none, and slim just left.

196 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:04:54pm

Currently, whenever tax cuts are demanded by citizens, the first cuts the government makes is in life essential services (police, fire, etc.). It is my belief that this is done to force people to back off their calls for cuts and to go along with tax hikes. How will you guarantee that the same practice won't be applied to life essential services regarding my health care once it is under government control?

197 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:05:06pm

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

Sharm,

TITLE VI—PROGRAM INTEGRITY
7 Subtitle A—Increased Funding To
8 Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse
9 SEC. 1601. INCREASED FUNDING AND FLEXIBILITY TO
10 FIGHT FRAUD AND ABUSE.

Page 685

Those are jobs Obama is creating!

198 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:05:26pm

re: #187 Wendya

I believe their lobbyists gave him assurances they would support the bill. Their mouthpieces on television certainly give that impression. They only sent out emails last week claiming they don't endorse it when their members started asking for refunds.

So, AARP is lying to their members and the President is lying to the public. Nice company they all keep.

199 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:06:04pm

An issue I haven't seen addressed is this:

California and several other states now have "medical marijuana" laws, under which people can get a prescription from a doctor to get legal marijuana from state-certified marijuana dispensaries.

Under some (most, possibly) existing private health care plans, this type of prescription is just as allowable as any other.

Under your plan, will people be able to get free marijuana, if their doctor prescribes it in a medical marijuana state? And if not, on what rational basis will you exclude some prescribed drugs but not others?

Just want to pin down exactly how much free pot we can all get out of the government.

(And considering that the majority of people getting legal pot at these places are getting precriptions for entirely self-reported conditions which anybody can claim [insomnia, lack of appetite, generalized pain, achiness, depression, etc.], it's quite obvious to most folks that the legal pot-users are basically just potheads with a prescription in hand. Thus, under Obama's plan, it's free pot for whoever wants it!)

200 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:06:12pm

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

Increased funding is not necessarily increased oversight or prevention. Though throwing money at the problem is par for the course.

201 1SG(ret)  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:06:21pm

re: #190 retief_99

The + button on the right = good Karma

202 keithgabryelski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:06:21pm

re: #181 n in wi

Do you think the SEIU thugs that beat up Kenneth Gladney "Acted stupidly"?

I don't know the entire story, but it seemed like the start of the video (that I saw) someone was on the ground in front of Kenneth Gladney which seemed to be because Kenneth pushed that person.

I'm not saying SEIU acted appropriately, it doesn't seem like Kenneth Gladney was completely innocent.

203 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:06:31pm

re: #183 Thanos

Are you sure that's the right page? That guy's in AZ?

Yeah, same guy. He recently moved from az because the gun laws were to restrictive.

204 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:06:41pm

re: #201 1SG(ret)

Thank you.

205 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:06:47pm

re: #190 retief_99

I am sorry I don't know what upding means.

Clicking on the '+' button in the upper right of the comment window. Adds to Karma score listed in your profile. '-' button is a downding and does the opposite. Charles put it in place last year some time.

206 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:07:09pm

If only we weren't all suffering from the failed policies of his predecessor, then we could see how great Obamacare really is.

207 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:07:19pm

re: #205 CyanSnowHawk

Thanks to all for the upding training.

208 Tamron  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:07:35pm

Charles, this is an excellent thread! Well done, people!

My question would be this:

Mr. President, can you show us a model anywhere in the world, where a government-supported health care plan such as this one you are proposing, is successful and self-sustaining?

(In other words, please convince us that your proposed hurry-up program -- which no politician seems to have carefully studied -- will be different from, and/or better than, any other typical government goat-rope to date. The "YOU'VE GOT TO DO IT NOW!" urgency of your sales pitch is too mindful of the political stampede that Paulson initiated last fall, and look what THAT accomplished.)

209 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:07:42pm

re: #200 Dan G.

Increased funding is not necessarily increased oversight or prevention. Though throwing money at the problem is par for the course.

Sharmuta asked if the proposal had a section on FWA, I pointed it out to her. That's all.

210 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:08:06pm

re: #202 keithgabryelski

Did they have beer afterwords?

211 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:08:13pm

re: #200 Dan G.

Increased funding is not necessarily increased oversight or prevention. Though throwing money at the problem is par for the course.

exactly...more loot sucked up into the process...tort reform and and D med should be addressed with separate legislation...kill the bill!

212 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:08:15pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Addressing your post, not accusing/correcting you.

213 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:08:25pm

re: #184 doppelganglander

In a sense, you already are paying for other people's stupid decisions through your insurance premiums. Actuarial methods are used to calculate risk and set premiums accordingly. So if you have employer-provided health insurance and your lard-butt co-worker needs a quadruple bypass, your premiums may go up, depending on the size of your group. I saw this in action when I worked (as a temp with no benefits) for a small city government. One gall bladder removal and one heart attack in the same year almost caused their insurance carrier to drop them.

Doesn't apply to me, mostly. I do not have employer-provided health insurance. My premiums pretty much stay the same, and only rise with the general inflationary rise of the whole industry (which, admittedly, is somewhat related to the principle you described, but much more distantly).

214 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:09:09pm

re: #202 keithgabryelski

I don't know the entire story, but it seemed like the start of the video (that I saw) someone was on the ground in front of Kenneth Gladney which seemed to be because Kenneth pushed that person.

I'm not saying SEIU acted appropriately, it doesn't seem like Kenneth Gladney was completely innocent.

Link to the video you saw, please?

215 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:09:18pm

re: #199 zombie

In CA, the "doctor" is writing you a prescription for medical marijuana the second you walk through the door. The "exam" comes afterwards, and lasts about 3 seconds.

216 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:09:57pm

Dear Mr. President:
I have no questions to ask for you..
I'll be the one in the back of the room screaming and flailing my arm about...
Do not misinterpret that for a question.. It takes awhile to get my Mojo up before I can think of question that makes sense...
Meanwhile, please enjoy the hysterics as I flip out...
Thank you Sir...

217 keithgabryelski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:10:08pm

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

Link to the video you saw, please?

Youtube Video
218 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:10:11pm

re: #183 Thanos

william kostric

"I'll be stopping in DC for the march on my way to New Hampshire, the Live Free Or Die state. freestateproject-dot-org"


Looks like he's also a militia guy. IIRC, Scott Roeder was also an ex-member of the Freestate militia movement.

219 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:10:11pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

Yeah, same guy. He recently moved from az because the gun laws were to restrictive.

Gun laws in AZ too restrictive? Told you he was an idiot

220 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:10:14pm

re: #215 Racer X

IMHO marijuana will be fully legal (21+ years of age) within a decade.

221 RebelDebater  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:10:27pm

re: #215 Racer X

But thats a good thing!! haha

222 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:10:35pm

re: #199 zombie

An issue I haven't seen addressed is this:

California and several other states now have "medical marijuana" laws, under which people can get a prescription from a doctor to get legal marijuana from state-certified marijuana dispensaries.

Under some (most, possibly) existing private health care plans, this type of prescription is just as allowable as any other.

Under your plan, will people be able to get free marijuana, if their doctor prescribes it in a medical marijuana state? And if not, on what rational basis will you exclude some prescribed drugs but not others?

Just want to pin down exactly how much free pot we can all get out of the government.

(And considering that the majority of people getting legal pot at these places are getting precriptions for entirely self-reported conditions which anybody can claim [insomnia, lack of appetite, generalized pain, achiness, depression, etc.], it's quite obvious to most folks that the legal pot-users are basically just potheads with a prescription in hand. Thus, under Obama's plan, it's free pot for whoever wants it!)

The word doesn't appear in the bill. I'm not sure if it is covered under some other category.

223 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:11:06pm

Could you clarify the portion of the house bill that directs money to "underrepresented minorities" for targeted funding?

224 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:11:45pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

william kostric


Looks like he's also a militia guy. IIRC, Scott Roeder was also an ex-member of the Freestate militia movement.

He's one of those people who are damaging our ability to maintain second ammendment rights. By pulling shit like this he makes the job easier for the anti-gun lobbies.

225 Tamron  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:11:56pm

re: #114 zombie

Here's is my primary problem with nationalized health care:

It forces me to pay for other people's bad heath, bad diet, and bad lifestyle decisions.


Zombie, you've probably hit on the most comprehensive reason to throw this bill in the dumpster.

Thank you!
.

226 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:12:17pm

re: #224 Thanos

He's one of those people who are damaging our ability to maintain second ammendment rights. By pulling shit like this he makes the job easier for the anti-gun lobbies.

Yup.

227 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:12:26pm

What, precisely, is the intended purpose for this legislation; that way, we will have a gold standard, a priori, to measure how the proposed system performs?

228 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:12:30pm

re: #199 zombie

(And considering that the majority of people getting legal pot at these places are getting precriptions for entirely self-reported conditions which anybody can claim [insomnia, lack of appetite, generalized pain, achiness, depression, etc.], it's quite obvious to most folks that the legal pot-users are basically just potheads with a prescription in hand. Thus, under Obama's plan, it's free pot for whoever wants it!)

Tell that to cancer and AIDS patients. Your hatred for this plant is obvious, and ignorant.

229 drogheda  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:12:41pm

re: #219 Thanos

Gun laws in AZ too restrictive? Told you he was an idiot

Maybe Arizona has a "no open carry by idiots" provision?

230 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:12:48pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

The word doesn't appear in the bill. I'm not sure if it is covered under some other category.

I did see some sections of the bill where they deferred to state laws, but that was under the advanced care section

231 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:12:56pm

re: #219 Thanos

Gun laws in AZ too restrictive? Told you he was an idiot

I have friends at the range from CA...moved to NM solely because of the gun law restrictions, lock stock and barrel...wealthy shooters but talk about dedicated to their principles...wow

232 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:13:13pm

OT: Alice Cooper really is a twisted songwriter.

Just heard 'The Saga of Jesse Jane.'

233 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:13:20pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

What about "Marinol" (the prescription name for grass).

234 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:13:54pm

re: #220 Dan G.

IMHO marijuana will be fully legal (21+ years of age) within a decade.

less if they can tax the shit out of it...and they will, the bastids

235 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:14:11pm

re: #231 albusteve

I have friends at the range from CA...moved to NM solely because of the gun law restrictions, lock stock and barrel...wealthy shooters but talk about dedicated to their principles...wow

That I can understand, but AZ even has concealed carry don't they?

236 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:14:29pm

re: #234 albusteve

I believe the intoxication effects will lead them to treat it more like alcohol than like cigarettes.

237 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:15:00pm

re: #233 Dan G.

What about "Marinol" (the prescription name for grass).

No, see Thanos...re: #230 Thanos

238 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:15:03pm

The thread is moving to fast for me to read all of the comments, so I apologize if this one was asked already:

Mr. President, how are we going to recruit America's best and brightest to go through the misery of med school and residency if we are only going to offer them the kind of returns that Medicare currently offers?

239 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:15:35pm

re: #215 Racer X

In CA, the "doctor" is writing you a prescription for medical marijuana the second you walk through the door. The "exam" comes afterwards, and lasts about 3 seconds.

I saw a hilarious/infuriating mini-documentary about the "conditions" people had who were going in and out of the pot clinics. It was patently obvious that most of them were malingerers, and nothing was really wrong with them (aside from the typical aches and pains of normal human existence). So, so many had "insomnia" and "pain," for which there is no rigorous test, and which the doctors accept entirely on the patient's self-reporting. Some even gleefully admitted this, and were just legalization activists using the prescription system to get free pot for their own enjoyment. Only a few handful of the people had actual real provable medical conditions which might merit such a prescription (i.e. AIDS patient with low appetite due to chemotherapy, etc.). But of course -- those few are the ones focused on by the media.

240 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:15:48pm

re: #235 Thanos

That I can understand, but AZ even has concealed carry don't they?

honestly don't know...you cannot conceal in NM tho

241 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:16:08pm

re: #234 albusteve

less if they can tax the shit out of it...and they will, the bastids

Then the health care bill should include free Doritos and strobe lights.

242 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:16:18pm

Gun control is about one thing...POWER. The framers of the Constitution knew that the people should have power. Read the Federalist Papers about the why and wherefore of the 2nd Amendment. You may be surprised.

243 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:16:29pm

Mr. President,
On the grounds that neglecting my own personal safety can result in higher costs to all of us the government alreadys requires that:

1. I wear a seat belt while driving.
2. I wear a helmet while riding a bike. Or driving a motorcycle.
3. Pay enormous taxes on cigarettes if I choose to smoke.
4. I pay enormous taxes on alcohol if I choose to drink.

Etc. you get the idea. How will you insure that the government will not use the fact that my neglect of my own health (should I choose to eat more than you would like or drink more than you would like or not exercise as much as you would like) will not become a health care 'crime'?

244 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:16:30pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Tell that to cancer and AIDS patients. Your hatred for this plant is obvious, and ignorant.

I watched my mom die from cancer for a year and a half...After she passed I was going through her jewery boxes...And I found a joint...
You go mom...she just melted away and she tried her last option..A fucking Joint...The most anti-drug person in the world..
God Bless you Mom

245 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:16:31pm

The Govt. has gained control of many Banks/Financials thru Tarp. The Govt. gained control of 2/3s of US owned auto production thru bailouts/bankruptcy. The Govt. now seeks to control another 16% of the US economy by controlling "healthcare".


What's next?

246 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:16:32pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Tell that to cancer and AIDS patients. Your hatred for this plant is obvious, and ignorant.

Thank you.

247 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:17:07pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Tell that to cancer and AIDS patients. Your hatred for this plant is obvious, and ignorant.

*passes Sharm the bong*

248 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:17:10pm

re: #242 retief_99

Nice, but off topic. Save it for an open thread.

249 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:17:17pm

re: #238 EmmmieG

The thread is moving to fast for me to read all of the comments, so I apologize if this one was asked already:

Mr. President, how are we going to recruit America's best and brightest to go through the misery of med school and residency if we are only going to offer them the kind of returns that Medicare currently offers?

Or attract investment money to develope medicines.

250 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:17:32pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

The word doesn't appear in the bill. I'm not sure if it is covered under some other category.

On the federal level, it is illegal. Under government healthcare, it would probably be illegal to prescribe.

251 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:17:38pm

re: #236 Dan G.

I believe the intoxication effects will lead them to treat it more like alcohol than like cigarettes.

however they can generate the most money...I feel really strongly about this stupid pot thing...they will pimp it for all it's worth...the hypocricy is astounding

252 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:18:06pm

re: #239 zombie

I gained a lot of respect for my brother-in-law when he asked specifically for seperate checks before ordering an expensive dish.

253 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:18:10pm

Mr. President, do you believe that the proposed legislation is compatible with individual rights?

254 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:18:10pm

re: #248 Dan G.

Agreed, I apologize.

255 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:18:28pm

re: #240 albusteve

honestly don't know...you cannot conceal in NM tho

That changed 4 years ago. [Link: www.dps.nm.org...]

256 LoquaciousLady  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:18:51pm

So, Mr. President, what incentives are being included to "encourage" individuals to lead healthy lives? Does this include taxing risky behavior like fatty foods, alcohol, and teen orgy parties?

In reality, this country was founded on the principle of individual freedom. Europe has not truly had a complete freedom-type of revolution. So, comparing the US healthcare system with Canada, Britain, and Germany is a specious. People in those countries have relied on a monarch or strong government for their personal well being for centuries. No big leap for them to rely on their governments for healthcare. For us Social Security, Medicare, Welfare and the such have been frog boiling in the pot scenarios of freedom loss. This one is the heat being turned up a little too fast.

257 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:18:55pm

re: #217 keithgabryelski

[Video]

Looks to me like the video started after the fracas began, and that others were involved too. The very beginning of this thing has not popped up on video . But this video has the one guy yelling at the SEIU folks, "You attacked him!", and I have to assume that guy was there at the beginning of the incident. It doesn't appear anybody knew it was being recorded at that time, so there would be no reason for the guy to yell "You attacked him" unless it was exactly what he saw happen.

258 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:19:49pm

re: #239 zombie

I stood outside a pot clinic a few weeks ago and watched a young stoner go in, come out 5 mins later with a plain brown paper bag, and get in to a car with about 5 friends. I'm sure they all had a legal prescription.

This was repeated about 5 times in the course of an hour.

259 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:20:11pm

re: #213 zombie

Doesn't apply to me, mostly. I do not have employer-provided health insurance. My premiums pretty much stay the same, and only rise with the general inflationary rise of the whole industry (which, admittedly, is somewhat related to the principle you described, but much more distantly).

Then you're lucky, and I hope you can keep your plan. Even if the public option doesn't destroy the insurance companies, I could see a scenario in which insurers cherry-pick their customers and dump the high risk patients on the government plan. Imagine the tax increases if we were covering only the old, sick, fat, stupid and badly behaved, without being able to spread the risk among a pool that includes healthier individuals.

260 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:20:13pm

re: #239 zombie

I've watched a few documentaries on this as well, and what I noticed is the lack of information on other drugs that are just as effective, if not more effective, in alleviating the conditions that caused the "medical marijuana" debate to start.

I will freely admit I am anti-pot, anti-drug for that matter, in spades. I may be jaded by my very real, very horrible experience with a "casual user" who liked to put his cigarettes out on me, along with what heroin did/is doing to a very close friend's daughter. She started out a casual pot user too.

261 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:20:32pm

re: #245 BignJames

The Govt. has gained control of many Banks/Financials thru Tarp. The Govt. gained control of 2/3s of US owned auto production thru bailouts/bankruptcy. The Govt. now seeks to control another 16% of the US economy by controlling "healthcare".

What's next?

Nationalize the granola industry and then it's all over comrade.

262 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:20:37pm

Please quantify in some non-monetary terms the effec this will have on supply and demand for medical services, like, doctor/nurse/drug/hospital hours.

(Obama having shown only negative abilities to do even basic arithmetic, this will probably cause his head to explode and the little alien inside to writhe on the ground and die)

263 Dan G.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:21:06pm

Mr. President, what business is it of yours or the Congresses' if I choose to directly contract for services with an individual skilled in the medical arts, without considering the services of an insurance agency (i.e. I am uninsured by choice, not chance)?

264 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:21:15pm

re: #255 Wendya

That changed 4 years ago. [Link: www.dps.nm.org...]

thanks for that...I'm still sorta new out here and I have no handgun

265 LoquaciousLady  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:21:20pm

Oh, oh, oh, one more. What was your grade in Microeconomics?

266 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:21:25pm

re: #242 retief_99

Gun control is about one thing...POWER. The framers of the Constitution knew that the people should have power. Read the Federalist Papers about the why and wherefore of the 2nd Amendment. You may be surprised.
The left's position on gun control is the same as their position on everything else;
1. The Constitution only applies when I want it to.
2. People are to irresponsible to be left to their own accord.

267 Tamron  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:21:37pm

This just looks like ANOTHER OBAMA-INDUCED STAMPEDE...

268 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:22:09pm

There are differences between your projections for this health care bill and the congressional budget offices projections, will those be reconciled and offset before you sign it?

269 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:22:54pm

re: #261 Walter L. Newton

Nationalize the granola industry and then it's all over comrade.


I like granola. Them's fightin' words.

270 Pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:24:10pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Sharmuta asked if the proposal had a section on FWA, I pointed it out to her. That's all.

Walter L. Newton... Legislative Lizard Librarian.

271 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:24:56pm

re: #244 HoosierHoops

I am so sorry for your loss. I watched my 27 year old sister die from cancer, too. Completely changed my outlook on life - and I know that is what Jennifer wanted. I miss her tremendously, though.

272 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:25:37pm

re: #270 Pianobuff

Walter L. Newton... Legislative Lizard Librarian.

he's kickin butt right now

273 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:26:37pm

Mr. President,judging from past experience,over the last 6 months,can we safely assume that you start out every lie with the phrase,"Let me be clear"?

274 fooburger  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:26:54pm

I would ask about timing:

Why is a complete overhaul of health care in America so important right now? Is it possible that your administration is confusing the problem of being uninsured with the problem of being unemployed? Or is the timing intended to get public support while the economy is in recession and many people are panicking?

275 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:26:58pm

re: #258 Racer X

I stood outside a pot clinic a few weeks ago and watched a young stoner go in, come out 5 mins later with a plain brown paper bag, and get in to a car with about 5 friends. I'm sure they all had a legal prescription.

This was repeated about 5 times in the course of an hour.

So what? You don't know their conditions. And even if they are "just stoners" would you rather have them taking prescription mind drugs like prozac and have different sorts of druggies running around? Going to go hang at the park tomorrow and watch the drunks panhandle for booze or drink liquid hairspray? It would be nice if humans didn't use intoxicants and we were all sober all the time and rainbows shot our our assholes when we farted, but it's not reality. Pass me a beer, please.

276 keithgabryelski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:27:09pm

re: #243 WinterCat

How will you insure that the government will not use the fact that my neglect of my own health (should I choose to eat more than you would like or drink more than you would like or not exercise as much as you would like) will not become a health care 'crime'?

I think that this is an interesting point.

The military has a reasonable health care system (I was in it as a dependent) , I was born in a naval hospital, when I broke bones, I got service. When my eye needed an operation, that got done. Debilitating migraines -- got medication.

That system seems to work on a large scale (the military). There are caveats and one of the more serious ones is that the military can compel the taking of medication and keeping a certain weight.

These are reasonable requirements (which help keep costs down by helping keep the targets healthy) for the military but unreasonable for citizens.

277 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:27:15pm

Mr President...do you still stand by your threat to veto any legislation that does not include a single player provision?

278 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:27:23pm

I am self employed. Will I be required to purchase a health insurance plan? Due to a devastating recession I am finding it hard to make ends meet even on a month to month basis. How can I possibly afford this given that it may add an additional $400 a month burden to my budget?

What are the penalties for not purchasing health insurance on the self employed? Does this include IRS sanctions which may include regressive penalties and interest that are difficult enough to deal with in a robust economy and even worse in the present economic disaster we face today.

279 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:28:14pm

re: #258 Racer X

I stood outside a pot clinic a few weeks ago and watched a young stoner go in, come out 5 mins later with a plain brown paper bag, and get in to a car with about 5 friends. I'm sure they all had a legal prescription.

This was repeated about 5 times in the course of an hour.

Around here, it's mostly ex-hippies as opposed to young kids. There's no real hiding it any more -- except when a TV camera hoves into view. The workers at the clinics even have brochures on how to finagle a pot prescription even lacking a testable ailment. They provide a list of "friendly" doctors nearby, doling out the 'scrips by the dozen every day.

Oh and I voted for Prop 215 and support medical marijuana FOR THOSE WHO TRULY NEED IT AND AND FOR THOSE FOR WHOM IT IS THE ONLY AND BEST MEDICINE. Doctors have Dilaudid (i.e. heroin) and cocaine in the locked pharmaceutical cabinet. I have no problem with marijuana being in there also. But just as with Diluadid, the doctors should really and truly ascertain that the patient really needs this one specific drugs above all others.

As things currently stand, the system is being utterly abused. I now realize that was the intent of the Prop 215 advocates in the first place.

280 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:28:36pm

re: #275 Sharmuta

So what? You don't know their conditions. And even if they are "just stoners" would you rather have them taking prescription mind drugs like prozac and have different sorts of druggies running around? Going to go hang at the park tomorrow and watch the drunks panhandle for booze or drink liquid hairspray? It would be nice if humans didn't use intoxicants and we were all sober all the time and rainbows shot our our assholes when we farted, but it's not reality. Pass me a beer, please.

agreed

281 1SG(ret)  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:28:37pm

Mr. President, would my friends and non-military family members be stuck with the same shitty plan I'm forced to deal with (TRI-CARE/VA)? Could you please unscrew these systems before moving eveyone else into the same kind of plans. I like them all and wish no harm to them!

282 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:28:41pm

Obama has already answered the biggest question I have heard asked , which was ' what kinds of health care and services will have to be cut in this program for it to work?'
He gave a frank and full answer: ' We'll make cuts in those services which do not reach the goal of making you healthier. '
That's the scary scenario. Just think of all the areas that covers.
Or rather, doesn't.

283 keithgabryelski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:28:52pm

re: #277 albusteve

Mr President...do you still stand by your threat to veto any legislation that does not include a single player provision?

Cite a reference, please.

284 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:29:19pm

One of the best health care benefits I have seen was available to civilian employess of the DOD. I worked for DOD as a civilian for 20 years. On offer were about 15 or so plans, ALL of which were Insurance companies. Not a single government entity was offered. The system was very popular. The plans were not free, the government payed, I think, 60% of the premiums. The plans cost ranged from about $300 per month to about $500 per month. I don't see wht the government plan for health care couldn't be more in line with this, with with provisions for lost jobs, disability, or other contingencies.

285 Major Bedhead  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:29:48pm

After a bit of thought, this is my best:

If the average -- average -- American family now pays $15,000 annually for their health care, what will they pay in ten years?

It's not an impossible calculation.

286 Yashmak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:30:01pm

Given that both medicaid and medicare, existing examples of government-run healthcare programs, both exceeded their estimated annual program cost after 25 years by a factor of 10; what guarantee can you offer the American taxpayer that your proposed healthcare legislation won't have a similar outcome?

287 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:30:02pm

re: #283 keithgabryelski

Cite a reference, please.

don't have one

288 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:30:14pm

I'm out a bit, I need to do some research on taking pictures of meteor showers with digital cameras.

289 mfarmer1  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:30:50pm

Mr. President: Since under your plan I will be paying for my neighbors' healthcare, I'd like to know the following. Do I have your permission to forcibly take money from my neighbors' wallets to pay for my foodcare/ transportationcare/ housingcare/ and swimmingpoolcare, all fundamental rights under our Constitution? If not, how long will it be before you send someone out to take care of this on my behalf? Thank you.

290 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:30:52pm

re: #288 Thanos

Good luck! I hope we get to see the results.

291 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:30:59pm

re: #285 Major Bedhead

After a bit of thought, this is my best:

If the average -- average -- American family now pays $15,000 annually for their health care, what will they pay in ten years?

It's not an impossible calculation.

15k? Is that a typo?

292 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:31:13pm

re: #272 albusteve

he's kickin butt right now

Not really. I've actually read almost whole thing, I'll admit I skipped over the funding pages that appear through out, and when there was sections amending existing law in other documents, I just skimmed that language, but I have a basic idea of what's in there now.

I also keep it open in Adobe and do quick searches when something comes up here.

Between all of us working together, we can make a dent in this and inform a lot of people of what is being proposed.

And with the help of Lizards like Lawhawk, Realwest, Buzzsawmonkey, Medura, Haakondhall (sp?) and others who have a better understanding of the details of all this legalese, we are probably one of the best informed bunch of blog hounds in the country.

293 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:31:26pm

A serious questions:

What sort of recourse would the rate payers have in the event of a dispute with the decisions of administrators over coverage and continuation of treatment?

How could the ratepayers enforce the decision of any arbitration panel against, essentially, a governmental agency?

Is this universal healthcare going to create yet another governmental agency?

Do you not see a problem with the US Government becoming, in fact, the largest employer in the country because of the system?

Would you want to see a sunset provision in the Bill so that it will die automatically within a fixed time and require an affirmative governmental act to be renewed--in case it does not work and becomes a failed experiment?

294 JacksonTn  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:31:44pm

re: #278 Gus 802

I am self employed. Will I be required to purchase a health insurance plan? Due to a devastating recession I am finding it hard to make ends meet even on a month to month basis. How can I possibly afford this given that it may add an additional $400 a month burden to my budget?

What are the penalties for not purchasing health insurance on the self employed? Does this include IRS sanctions which may include regressive penalties and interest that are difficult enough to deal with in a robust economy and even worse in the present economic disaster we face today.

Gus ... that is why I was asking in my previous post about jail time for exactly what you posted about .. I am not being snarky when I am asking that ... what would be the penalty if you do not have money ... how would they force you to pay if you do not fit into the unemployed without insurance and are somewhere else? ... you know there will be people who for whatever reason will still not enroll in any healthcare plan ... what are the penalties for them? ...

295 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:32:07pm

re: #275 Sharmuta

So what? You don't know their conditions. And even if they are "just stoners" would you rather have them taking prescription mind drugs like prozac and have different sorts of druggies running around? Going to go hang at the park tomorrow and watch the drunks panhandle for booze or drink liquid hairspray? It would be nice if humans didn't use intoxicants and we were all sober all the time and rainbows shot our our assholes when we farted, but it's not reality. Pass me a beer, please.

Oh man, I would love to see the rainbows shoot out of someone's ass. What an image. Thanks, really LOL.

296 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:33:05pm

Mr. President, When will you grow up and give one public appearance that will not include blaming the previous administration?

297 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:33:08pm

re: #289 mfarmer1

Mr. President: Since under your plan I will be paying for my neighbors' healthcare, I'd like to know the following. Do I have your permission to forcibly take money from my neighbors' wallets to pay for my foodcare/ transportationcare/ housingcare/ and swimmingpoolcare, all fundamental rights under our Constitution? If not, how long will it be before you send someone out to take care of this on my behalf? Thank you.

Two words: garage sale (at you neighbor's, of course)

298 Tamron  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:33:16pm

re: #274 fooburger

I would ask about timing:

Why is a complete overhaul of health care in America so important right now? Is it possible that your administration is confusing the problem of being uninsured with the problem of being unemployed? Or is the timing intended to get public support while the economy is in recession and many people are panicking?


--Or is the timing intended to shove one more trojan horse through our gate, before the Obama administration loses its momentum?

299 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:33:41pm

re: #278 Gus 802

I am self employed. Will I be required to purchase a health insurance plan? Due to a devastating recession I am finding it hard to make ends meet even on a month to month basis. How can I possibly afford this given that it may add an additional $400 a month burden to my budget?

What are the penalties for not purchasing health insurance on the self employed? Does this include IRS sanctions which may include regressive penalties and interest that are difficult enough to deal with in a robust economy and even worse in the present economic disaster we face today.

Read...

Sec. 401. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.

300 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:33:54pm

re: #291 HoosierHoops

15k? Is that a typo?

Including employer-paid fees and out of pocket, sounds about right.

301 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:34:31pm

re: #295 Walter L. Newton

Oh man, I would love to see the rainbows shoot out of someone's ass.


No problem:
' There's an app for that'
:)

302 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:34:32pm

re: #252 EmmmieG

I gained a lot of respect for my brother-in-law when he asked specifically for seperate checks before ordering an expensive dish.

I will trade you my brother-in-law for your brother-in-law.

303 Major Bedhead  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:34:35pm

re: #291 HoosierHoops

15k? Is that a typo?

Nope. It's the rough cost for each family when you count it all up. And I mean all: co-payments, employee contributions, Medicaid taxes, &c.

304 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:34:41pm

re: #300 itellu3times

Including employer-paid fees and out of pocket, sounds about right.

If you add in braces, glasses, and cavities, it probably goes higher.

305 JacksonTn  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:34:52pm

re: #299 Walter L. Newton

Read...

Sec. 401. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.

WLN ... right but what about people who do not have the money to pay the tax? ... please see my other posts in this thread ... I am wondering what is the end penalty after all others have been exhausted ...

306 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:35:43pm

re: #276 keithgabryelski

I think that this is an interesting point.

The military has a reasonable health care system (I was in it as a dependent) , I was born in a naval hospital, when I broke bones, I got service. When my eye needed an operation, that got done. Debilitating migraines -- got medication.

That system seems to work on a large scale (the military). There are caveats and one of the more serious ones is that the military can compel the taking of medication and keeping a certain weight.

These are reasonable requirements (which help keep costs down by helping keep the targets healthy) for the military but unreasonable for citizens.

Quite true. Also, the military serves a predominantly young, healthy population. I was a Navy wife for about 4 years and had two babies, both with complications. Everything turned out fine, and they and I got excellent care. But imagine if a Naval hospital had to deal with moms on crack who've gotten no prenatal care, 45-year-old moms who are having triplets via fertility treatments, and other high-risk patients. The system would quickly be overwhelmed, especially if (as I suspect would happen) insurers dump their high-risk customers and they're forced onto the public plan.

307 d1carter  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:35:44pm

How will we supply enough health care professionals for the added number of citizens under this plan? Will the shortage lead to greater rationing than we can imagine?

308 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:35:44pm

Mr. President,

Why not just open free, walk-in care clinics
that bill any insurance company you may have,
and just eat the rest.

Because, really, nobody wants health insurance,
they want health, and they want care. Not insurance.

Than Kew.

309 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:35:57pm

Mr. President, will Americans continue under your proposed reforms, to feel the pride of hearing about people from all over the world flocking to the USA in droves to obtain the timely and state-of-art treatment that is only available in the USA and which they cannot obtain from their government-funded systems?

310 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:36:34pm

re: #294 JacksonTn

Gus ... that is why I was asking in my previous post about jail time for exactly what you posted about .. I am not being snarky when I am asking that ... what would be the penalty if you do not have money ... how would they force you to pay if you do not fit into the unemployed without insurance and are somewhere else? ... you know there will be people who for whatever reason will still not enroll in any healthcare plan ... what are the penalties for them? ...

The only way around it would be if there was an expansion of a private self employed insurance pool. This could be done through government incentives which typically came as tax cuts for said industry in this case the health insurance provider.

Other than penalties and interest there's also levies, and liens each of which could be applied for each tax year. Jail time only could occur if there was fraud involved after a criminal investigation -- essentially it could go from collections to criminal. But like I said there would have to be a reason.

311 EaterOfFood  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:36:55pm

I would ask the following:

1. What restrictions are there on eligibility? Is it only for those who are unable to afford private health insurance or can anyone apply?

2. In 2003 you said you wanted a single-payer health care plan, but now you claim you don't. What changed your mind?

3. How much will it cost? And how will it be paid for?

312 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:37:11pm

re: #299 Walter L. Newton

Read...

Sec. 401. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.

I know. ;) Was that 2.5% or 8%?

313 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:37:14pm

re: #304 EmmmieG

If you add in braces, glasses, and cavities, it probably goes higher.

Can I deduct my Nikes and greens fees, as health expenses? And, lite beer?

314 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:37:21pm

re: #308 itellu3times

Mr. President,

Why not just open free, walk-in care clinics
that bill any insurance company you may have,
and just eat the rest.

Because, really, nobody wants health insurance,
they want health, and they want care. Not insurance.

Than Kew.

Because the people with insurance won't go there. They'll go to the clinic with the shorter wait, the one that only takes private plans.

315 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:37:28pm

re: #244 HoosierHoops

I watched my mom die from cancer for a year and a half...After she passed I was going through her jewery boxes...And I found a joint...
You go mom...she just melted away and she tried her last option..A fucking Joint...The most anti-drug person in the world..
God Bless you Mom

One of the few drugs found to help people like your mom. {Hoops}

316 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:37:53pm

re: #295 Walter L. Newton

Oh man, I would love to see the rainbows shoot out of someone's ass. What an image. Thanks, really LOL.

Drop some acid and light up a fart.

317 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:37:53pm

re: #300 itellu3times

Including employer-paid fees and out of pocket, sounds about right.

Wow...That's alot...But then again if my employer pays a million dollars in fee's...How does that mean I paid 15k of my money for the average healthcare?
I mean we can't combine the two and say the entire bill went out of my pocket..Right? Maybe I misunderstand but 15k out the average American Pocket? Lot's a lot of cash...most people I know pay from 3-5 hundred bucks a month...For a family

318 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:37:54pm

re: #313 itellu3times

Can I deduct my Nikes and greens fees, as health expenses? And, lite beer?

Tell you what. You try that, and get back to me on how it worked.

319 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:37:59pm
320 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:38:09pm

re: #305 JacksonTn

WLN ... right but what about people who do not have the money to pay the tax? ... please see my other posts in this thread ... I am wondering what is the end penalty after all others have been exhausted ...

Well, since section 59B amends the IRS code, I suspect the penalties would be the same as not paying taxes.

Your tax liability is 2.5 percent...

‘‘(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual
21 who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at
22 any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed
23 a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of—
1 ‘‘(1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross in2
come for the taxable year, over
3 ‘‘(2) the amount of gross income specified in
4 section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.

321 JacksonTn  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:38:28pm

re: #310 Gus 802

The only way around it would be if there was an expansion of a private self employed insurance pool. This could be done through government incentives which typically came as tax cuts for said industry in this case the health insurance provider.

Other than penalties and interest there's also levies, and liens each of which could be applied for each tax year. Jail time only could occur if there was fraud involved after a criminal investigation -- essentially it could go from collections to criminal. But like I said there would have to be a reason.

Gus ... well, I guess there will be more jobs created to enforce payment kinda like getting child support from parents who are not paying ... which is a very ugly business ...

322 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:38:37pm

re: #317 HoosierHoops

Wow...That's alot...But then again if my employer pays a million dollars in fee's...How does that mean I paid 15k of my money for the average healthcare?
I mean we can't combine the two and say the entire bill went out of my pocket..Right? Maybe I misunderstand but 15k out the average American Pocket? Lot's a lot of cash...most people I know pay from 3-5 hundred bucks a month...For a family


Our health insurance is costing our company a thousand a month.

323 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:39:01pm

re: #319 buzzsawmonkey

I've heard of the poot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

eww.

324 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:39:08pm

re: #314 EmmmieG

Because the people with insurance won't go there. They'll go to the clinic with the shorter wait, the one that only takes private plans.

Then so be it.

But you might be surprised.

Private insurance plans would be much cheaper, that only promised to reimburse at the government sites, plus a few extra bennies.

325 retief_99  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:39:31pm

re: #310 Gus 802

When the government proscribes penalties for certain actions it means they are trying to control your behavior.

326 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:39:32pm

re: #319 buzzsawmonkey

I almost replied "that would be really pooty" but refrained due to the serious nature of this post. I already went off the tracks once with my pantie post, I didn't want to push my luck. But since you started it!

327 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:39:41pm

re: #319 buzzsawmonkey

I've heard of the poot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Methinks you were goosed to lay that egg, Buzz.

328 offensive_username  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:39:51pm

To my knowledge, none of the states which have enacted a comprehensive health care program that provides its citizens with insurance coverage has become a society with either contented citizens or a competitive advantage over other states in attracting residents. On the contrary, these plans lead to severe budgetary strain because they are expensive; because states generally cannot borrow money to pay for their consumption and instead must live within their means, no state has enacted a program as broad as those you favor.

Given this history and the unknowable future of medical technology, doesn't any health plan risk being unaffordable? If a plan such as those currently proposed were ensconced at the federal level, wouldn't it be politically impossible to eliminate services to reduce costs? Hasn't it proven almost as difficult politically to raise taxes? Doesn't that risk the entire nation's economy and future if for even a few years we irresponsibly spend more in programs than receive in tax receipts and have to pay interest on that debt, and interest on that interest, and so on?

If you don't disagree with any of the above assertions and insist the types of plans you would sign into law (not veto) would be fully funded by select new taxes and economies of scale and reduced bureaucracy from government involvement, why not transfer money to the states and allow them to enact their own plans? Wouldn't that obviate the risk of national catastrophe? Wouldn't that increase the chances of one of the states getting the right mix of government regulation and private choice? Wouldn't it defuse much of the politicization around the debate if each state could choose for itself whether medical marijuana, abortions, and sex changes would be paid for by the government, for which a consensus exists in most states? Wouldn't it defuse much of the politicization around the debate if each state could choose for itself the level of federal involvement? Wouldn't it help compel tough but necessary choices about tax rates, incarceration of various types of criminals, and services if they were all made on the same budgetary plane?

329 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:39:53pm

re: #307 d1carter

How will we supply enough health care professionals for the added number of citizens under this plan? Will the shortage lead to greater rationing than we can imagine?

See section 2231 Federal health Care Workforce.

It's a complete federalized health care business, including clinics, new doctors, nurses, schooling, administration, support personal, you know, all the things that now exist in the private health care industry.

330 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:40:25pm

re: #318 EmmmieG

Tell you what. You try that, and get back to me on how it worked.

I'm going to report myself to the white house snitch site - but if Obama offered a health plan that covered lite beer, I think it would pass overnight!

331 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:40:30pm

Ruh Roh. Too late for a take-back, TOTUS. You're gonna need that health care plan stat, since you just shot yourself in the foot:
[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]
If I missed an earlier link in another thread or this one, sorry. It's worth replaying and sending to your reps.

332 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:40:43pm

re: #319 buzzsawmonkey

I've heard of the poot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

What moved you to write that?

333 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:40:46pm

re: #315 Sharmuta

One of the few drugs found to help people like your mom. {Hoops}

Hey Girl! Hope you are well.. We need to chat this weekend...
How is the Weather there? It's hot all week here..

334 mfarmer1  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:41:17pm

Mr. President: When was the last time you wrote a check for anything yourself?

335 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:41:31pm

re: #321 JacksonTn

Gus ... well, I guess there will be more jobs created to enforce payment kinda like getting child support from parents who are not paying ... which is a very ugly business ...

Right. Which would require an increase in manpower for the US Department of Treasury.

336 Major Bedhead  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:41:33pm

re: #317 HoosierHoops

Wow...That's alot...But then again if my employer pays a million dollars in fee's...How does that mean I paid 15k of my money for the average healthcare?
I mean we can't combine the two and say the entire bill went out of my pocket..Right? Maybe I misunderstand but 15k out the average American Pocket? Lot's a lot of cash...most people I know pay from 3-5 hundred bucks a month...For a family

Don't forget the taxes they pay that go toward programs like Medicaid. And on years when a family encounters an illness, their payments can push the average up a fair bit.

337 shortshrift  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:10pm

Question:

I am a doctor. I wish to set up a medical practice with a few other doctors.
I do not accept any insurance. I charge $3500 per patient per year, for which the patients get an annual check-up, free consultations at any other time, the ability to contact me by phone and house calls. Is there anything in the bill to prevent me. Cost of treatment is extra. Is there anything in the bill that would prevent me from setting up this practice?

Question:
I am a specialist surgeon, highly sought after, top of my field. My services are very expensive. Is there anything in the bill that would prevent me from charging my usual fee to patients referred to me under a public option plan? May I opt out of accepting patients from the public option plan if I find that it is not profitable for me? Will patients on the public option plan be allowed to pay out of pocket for the extra fees I charge? May I take referrals from doctors who are not on the public plan's list, or take on any patients on the public plan directly, without a referral from a doctor? Is there anything in the bill that will require me to perform my services at a discount or at a set rate?

338 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:13pm

re: #317 HoosierHoops

Wow...That's alot...But then again if my employer pays a million dollars in fee's...How does that mean I paid 15k of my money for the average healthcare?
I mean we can't combine the two and say the entire bill went out of my pocket..Right? Maybe I misunderstand but 15k out the average American Pocket? Lot's a lot of cash...most people I know pay from 3-5 hundred bucks a month...For a family

Presumably, if the employer wasn't paying that money to Aetna, he could raise your paycheck by that amount.

This is one of Obama's "reasons" for tackling health care, to increase US competitiveness and give *you* more spending money.

/please puke in the other direction

339 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:20pm

re: #332 calcajun

What moved you to write that?

Are we about to be boweled over with puns?
/this is a pretty serious thread ... maybe we should hold off?

340 HelloDare  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:28pm

Instead of fixing what we have now so it runs as well as FedEx and UPS, why do you insists on giving us another U.S. Postal Service.

Youtube Video
341 Tamron  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:29pm

re: #319 buzzsawmonkey

I've heard of the poot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Heh-- What must one ingest, to create a gold poot?
.

342 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:30pm

re: #259 doppelganglander

Then you're lucky, and I hope you can keep your plan. Even if the public option doesn't destroy the insurance companies, I could see a scenario in which insurers cherry-pick their customers and dump the high risk patients on the government plan. Imagine the tax increases if we were covering only the old, sick, fat, stupid and badly behaved, without being able to spread the risk among a pool that includes healthier individuals.

For insurance companies it's all about risk.

Group insurance is based on gender, age, type of work (blue or white collar) and health of each individual. Among other things.

Gender: Because women take better care of their health than men so they will see a doctor more often and they also give birth. So the higher the female population within a group, the higher the premium.

Age: Because the younger the group, less health disorders. Older the group, more likely health disorders.

Blue color vs white collar: Because construction workers, for example, risk a higher degree of harm in the workplace than an office worker.

I'm not an underwriter, but I do understand a bit about how premiums are determined as I stated above.

Insurance companies are not the bad guys that need to be thrown under Obama's bus. They provide a policy and with it the cost of that policy to employers who request their service. If the premium is high based on the risk on that group, the group can accept the premium or reject it. If this is what is meant by cherry picking, then so be it. The option of insurance is still on the table.

343 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:42pm

re: #305 JacksonTn

WLN ... right but what about people who do not have the money to pay the tax? ... please see my other posts in this thread ... I am wondering what is the end penalty after all others have been exhausted ...

Sec.666
Unpayed penalties of said unpayed medical services rendered to subjects uncovered and said service hereto for provided will result in recipient of service afore mentioned to be enlisted to a qualified provider for the purpose of bed pan removal,disposal,or cleaning as determined by qualified provider .

344 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:48pm

re: #320 Walter L. Newton

Well, since section 59B amends the IRS code, I suspect the penalties would be the same as not paying taxes.

Your tax liability is 2.5 percent...

‘‘(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual
21 who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at
22 any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed
23 a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of—
1 ‘‘(1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross in2
come for the taxable year, over
3 ‘‘(2) the amount of gross income specified in
4 section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.

This is another plot to force us all to hire CPA's to figure out how big a devil is hidden in there.

345 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:42:49pm

re: #334 mfarmer1

' When Tony got me that sweet deal on my new lot and house ' .

346 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:43:12pm

Last night, someone was asking about the effect of C4K on the big 3, especially Chrysler and I just found this.

"Chrysler Group LLC has added shifts and overtime at some of its plants. General Motors Co. said it is likely to increase production, but hasn't made any decisions. Ford Motor Co. said it won't make any announcement until early September.

Starting last year, the Big Three U.S. auto makers began to cut back production to cope with swelling inventories as consumers skipped purchases amid the recession. During the bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler, both auto makers idled their plants, further reducing supply. Heading into July, it appeared auto makers finally had control of their inventories.

That changed as the government's clunkers program set off a flurry of buying. Even consumers who didn't qualify for the program made purchases."

WSJ.

347 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:43:58pm
348 JacksonTn  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:08pm

re: #320 Walter L. Newton

Well, since section 59B amends the IRS code, I suspect the penalties would be the same as not paying taxes.

Your tax liability is 2.5 percent...

‘‘(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual
21 who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at
22 any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed
23 a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of—
1 ‘‘(1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross in2
come for the taxable year, over
3 ‘‘(2) the amount of gross income specified in
4 section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.

WLN ... what are the specifics in the bill for H2A and H2B workers? will they be classified as what? ... will employers be required to provide insurance for them as if they were American workers? ... will they be required to provide insurance for them? ...

349 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:10pm

re: #339 pre-Boomer Marine brat

oh, very well. Bah.

350 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:20pm

re: #344 debutaunt

This is another plot to force us all to hire CPA's to figure out how big a devil is hidden in there.

You need a CPA to tell you what 2.5 percent of your adjusted gross in
come is?

351 the historian  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:21pm

JUST LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS

In America we currently have a nationwide nurse shortage and a doctor shortage in rural areas throughout the country. Additionally, hospitals and clinics are closing in far greater numbers than those that are opening.

Given that reality, how is it possible to add 48 million new people to the number of medically insured in this country and not have long waiting periods and rationed care? In other words, how do the same number of medical professionals and medical facilities, already overloaded, serve an additional 48 million folks?

352 idioma  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:38pm

Those in favor of a private sector, for-profit only system point to the successes in medical technology innovation; breakthrough medications and continuing advances in curing disease through research are some of the well-known advantages of the American health care industry. What provisions are you considering to ensure your plan does not harm our competitive system which rewards such innovation?

353 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:46pm

re: #346 avanti

and when the program ends? I'm not impressed. The gave away free money. WOOOHOOO. Oh, that was my money they gave to buy other people cars.

This isn't the topic of the thread though, so I'll reserve the rest of my commentary.

354 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:56pm

re: #322 EmmmieG

Our health insurance is costing our company a thousand a month.

Wow! really...That is sick!
For the Last month..I fall to my knees and thank God I work for the Japanese..
I'm not sure why Obama doesn't try to fix the economy first then reform Healthcare...With a healthy Economy Americans can fix anything...

355 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:44:56pm

re: #346 avanti

Last night, someone was asking about the effect of C4K on the big 3, especially Chrysler ...

I suppose it has greatly expanded the demand for clunkers, so the big 3 should be happy.
/

356 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:45:15pm

re: #334 mfarmer1

Mr. President: When was the last time you wrote a check for anything yourself?


When he payed ACORN

357 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:45:57pm

re: #354 HoosierHoops

Wow! really...That is sick!
For the Last month..I fall to my knees and thank God I work for the Japanese..
I'm not sure why Obama doesn't try to fix the economy first then reform Healthcare...With a healthy Economy Americans can fix anything...

Why do you think people yell so loud about health insurance when they get laid off? We got laid off when I was six months pregnant, and we were staring COBRA in the face.

358 d1carter  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:46:05pm

re: #329 Walter L. Newton

That does not address the shortages. It tells me how the government wants it, but we have desperate shortages now. In some rural and urban areas now, there are not enough doctors and nurses. This seems to be pie in the sky.

359 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:46:37pm

I got no problem with weed. I just think we should be honest about it. Getting a "prescription" from a doctor at a pot clinic is like getting a condom at a whorehouse. You know what is coming the second you walk in the door.

360 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:46:43pm

re: #351 the historian

That's not the half of it. Many health care providers are looking to get out of the profession now as they cannot make it lucrative unless they are highly specialized. The insurance companies are dinging them for almost everything (same with attorneys, too) It is only going to get worse when the government is running everything.

361 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:46:46pm

re: #334 mfarmer1

Mr. President: When was the last time you wrote a check for anything yourself?

I'm sure he's been epaying through his blackberry for some time.
/

362 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:46:59pm

re: #339 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Are we about to be boweled over with puns?
/this is a pretty serious thread ... maybe we should hold off?

I'm afraid my crudities will leave some flush with anger.

363 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:47:30pm

re: #348 JacksonTn

WLN ... what are the specifics in the bill for H2A and H2B workers? will they be classified as what? ... will employers be required to provide insurance for them as if they were American workers? ... will they be required to provide insurance for them? ...

I find nothing about visa holders off hand. But, if you are out of the country yourself, you are required to be covered...

‘‘(3) INDIVIDUALS RESIDING OUTSIDE UNITED
5 STATES.—Any qualified individual (as defined in
6 section 911(d)) (and any qualifying child residing
7 with such individual) shall be treated for purposes of
8 this section as covered by acceptable coverage during
9 the period described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of
10 section 911(d)(1), whichever is applicable.

So, leaving the country is not going to exclude you from having to have coverage or pay a tax if you fail to.

Lovely.

364 the historian  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:47:56pm

re: #360 calcajun

That's not the half of it. Many health care providers are looking to get out of the profession now as they cannot make it lucrative unless they are highly specialized. The insurance companies are dinging them for almost everything (same with attorneys, too) It is only going to get worse when the government is running everything.

Not to mention that no one is going to pay for medical school if they cannot make a profit as a doc.

365 freedomplow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:48:20pm

Have you ever listened to Ronald Reagan speak out against socialized medicine?

What did you think?

366 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:48:24pm

re: #350 Walter L. Newton

You need a CPA to tell you what 2.5 percent of your adjusted gross in
come is?

No, but I'd like some idea of what is hidden in the healthcare steamy pile.

367 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:48:35pm

re: #359 Racer X

I got no problem with weed. I just think we should be honest about it. Getting a "prescription" from a doctor at a pot clinic is like getting a condom at a whorehouse. You know what is coming the second you walk in the door.

I keep telling them at the Cheesecake Factory, if they'd put a few stairmasters in the lobby I'd go use that for a few minutes then come back and order dessert.

/and they could keep an ambulance idling at the back door, for those who tried that and failed

368 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:48:37pm

re: #358 d1carter

That does not address the shortages. It tells me how the government wants it, but we have desperate shortages now. In some rural and urban areas now, there are not enough doctors and nurses. This seems to be pie in the sky.

I'm telling you what's in the proposal. If it's not there, take it up with Obama.

369 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:48:47pm

Need beer.

370 freedomplow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:49:18pm

re: #365 freedomplow

Have you ever listened to Ronald Reagan speak out against socialized medicine?

What did you think?

Link

371 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:49:31pm

re: #369 Killgore Trout

Need beer.

Pick a fight with one of Obama's friends.

372 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:49:45pm

re: #352 idioma

Those in favor of a private sector, for-profit only system point to the successes in medical technology innovation; breakthrough medications and continuing advances in curing disease through research are some of the well-known advantages of the American health care industry. What provisions are you considering to ensure your plan does not harm our competitive system which rewards such innovation?

A follow up.
Since you want to destroy the best health care in the world,and you are fond of apologizing,will you tell the rest of the world your sorry for the disappearance of new drugs and medical universities?

373 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:50:27pm

re: #371 EmmmieG

Pick a fight with one of Obama's friends.

hahahahhaahahahahahaa

374 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:50:40pm

re: #369 Killgore Trout

Need beer.

Insult a black cop and see if Obama buys you one.

375 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:51:58pm

re: #366 debutaunt

No, but I'd like some idea of what is hidden in the healthcare steamy pile.

Read the proposal.

376 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:52:03pm

re: #364 the historian

Exactly.

377 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:52:06pm

re: #357 EmmmieG

Why do you think people yell so loud about health insurance when they get laid off? We got laid off when I was six months pregnant, and we were staring COBRA in the face.

I'm Sorry EmmmieG..
I thank God for his grace that our family has affordable heathcare.. Someday everyone should be able to care for their family at a fair price...
I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling Congress is going about this the right way...Not with so many upset Citizens

378 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:52:30pm

Whatever Obama wants
Obama gets
And little man, the Obama wants you
Make up your mind to have no regrets
Recline yourself, resign yourself, you're through
He always get what he aims for
And your health and soul is what he came for

379 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:52:50pm

re: #369 Killgore Trout

re: #371 EmmmieG

re: #373 debutaunt

re: #374 Spare O'Lake

Heh. Hand the lizards an obvious straight line and you get a chorus.

380 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:53:17pm

re: #374 Spare O'Lake

Insult a black cop and see if Obama buys you one.

Insult any cop--and not be in need of a cane like Prof. Gates-- and you'll need the health plan instead.

381 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:54:05pm

re: #377 HoosierHoops

I'm Sorry EmmmieG..
I thank God for his grace that our family has affordable heathcare.. Someday everyone should be able to care for their family at a fair price...
I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling Congress is going about this the right way...Not with so many upset Citizens

We went to a Christmas party full of non-management employees (some of whom had been laid off, too). Everyone took great delight in telling each other about us. (Look at her! They just laid him off!)

382 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:54:25pm

Just heard Jim Lehrer start a sentence ' President Obama held a town heat... I mean meeting today'...
Freud lives.

383 HelloDare  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:56:10pm

re: #340 HelloDare

Instead of fixing what we have now so it runs as well as FedEx and UPS, why do you insists on giving us another U.S. Postal Service?

Youtube Video

If Bush had bungled an answer this badly, the press would be all over it. Talking heads would be commenting on how inarticulate he is.

384 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:56:10pm

re: #369 Killgore Trout

try [Link: www...] CuffSkip . com

385 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:56:53pm

re: #379 CyanSnowHawk

re: #371 EmmmieG

re: #373 debutaunt

re: #374 Spare O'Lake

Heh. Hand the lizards an obvious straight line and you get a chorus.

I rose to the bait like a hungry old bucketmouth.

386 Ay, Caramba  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:57:21pm

I have reported all of you to the Snitch Website.
/

387 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:57:34pm

re: #244 HoosierHoops

I watched my mom die from cancer for a year and a half...After she passed I was going through her jewery boxes...And I found a joint...
You go mom...she just melted away and she tried her last option..A fucking Joint...The most anti-drug person in the world..
God Bless you Mom

I've got a friend with leukemia. He finally resorted to smoking weed when he had exhausted all other options. I don't give a damn if it helped because of the placebo effect or not. All I know is that it allowed him to eat when he had dwindled down to 98lbs and he made it into remission.

388 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:57:47pm

re: #386 Ay, Caramba

I have reported all of you to the Snitch Website.
/

Me first, me first...

389 yesandno  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:58:27pm

Additionally:

Why is healthcare a part of your employment? Less flexible then if they paid you to get your own.

Why is anyone "entitled" to healthcare?

If you take over my health care will you then tell me to stop eating my fudgepops because they are bad for your bottom line (and mine!)?

What happens when we have to repay our debt to the Chinese and there is less money to pay for universal care...who get's no care first?

390 Ay, Caramba  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:59:45pm

Mr. President, why should trial lawyers make more money than doctors?

391 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:00:03pm

re: #386 Ay, Caramba

I have reported all of you to the Snitch Website.
/

Do I qualify to be reported? Oh, puleeze. /

Hello Lizadia !

392 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:00:15pm

Mr. President, can you promise the American people that there will not be any tax hikes for the average American to cover any unforeseen costs related to any health care reform.

As it stands now, the debt on Medicare is already projected to be within 32 and 61 trillion dollars in the coming years while there has been no effort to curb the spending which according to the CBO will account for 90 percent of spending growth "between now and 2080."

So, are you willing to make that promise as it applies during your tenure?

393 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:00:30pm

re: #389 yesandno

Additionally:

What happens when we have to repay our debt to the Chinese and there is less money to pay for universal care...who get's no care first?


Republicans.

394 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:00:45pm

re: #387 Wendya

I've got a friend with leukemia. He finally resorted to smoking weed when he had exhausted all other options. I don't give a damn if it helped because of the placebo effect or not. All I know is that it allowed him to eat when he had dwindled down to 98lbs and he made it into remission.

If a good joint is not an appetite stimulant then I don't know what is.

395 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:00:46pm

re: #387 Wendya

I've got a friend with leukemia. He finally resorted to smoking weed when he had exhausted all other options. I don't give a damn if it helped because of the placebo effect or not. All I know is that it allowed him to eat when he had dwindled down to 98lbs and he made it into remission.

I support medical marijuana is such exact circumstances as your friend's - which is why I voted for medical pot.

However, the vast majority of prescription-users in California now do not have leukemia, AIDS, cancer, or anything serious -- or anything at all. They just want weed, and they want it for free. And they get it.

396 mfarmer1  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:01:06pm

Mr. President, since a post office-like organization will soon be running the nation's healthcare system, how can you assure us that babies will be delivered to the proper address?

397 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:01:36pm

is such = in such
PIMF

398 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:02:49pm

re: #395 zombie

I support medical marijuana is such exact circumstances as your friend's - which is why I voted for medical pot.

However, the vast majority of prescription-users in California now do not have leukemia, AIDS, cancer, or anything serious -- or anything at all. They just want weed, and they want it for free. And they get it.


Wanna be really mad? My aunt is a high school principal at a school in an unnamed state. (Actually, they did name it, but I'm not going to use the name. It's not like the horse in that song.)

She has a student in her school who already has seriously messed up parents. The girl, at 12, has a medical marijuana prescription, and actually goes across the street to smoke the joints. In front of the other students. There is nothing my aunt can do, and no, she doesn't think it's a valid prescription.

399 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:03:42pm

Congressional Budget Office
Director’s Blog

The current recession and policy responses have little effect on long-term projections of noninterest spending and revenues. But CBO estimates that in fiscal years 2009 and 2010, the federal government will record its largest budget deficits as a share of GDP since shortly after World War II. As a result of those deficits, federal debt held by the public will soar from 41 percent of GDP at the end of fiscal year 2008 to 60 percent at the end of fiscal year 2010. This higher debt results in permanently higher spending to pay interest on that debt. Federal interest payments already amount to more than 1 percent of GDP; unless current law changes, that share would rise to 2.5 percent by 2020.

[Link: cboblog.cbo.gov...]

400 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:03:43pm

re: #396 mfarmer1

Mr. President, since a post office-like organization will soon be running the nation's healthcare system, how can you assure us that babies will be delivered to the proper address?

And will dogs now have the same animosity towards doctors as they now do toward postal workers?

401 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:04:07pm

re: #391 callahan23

Do I qualify to be reported? Oh, puleeze. /

Hello Lizadia !

Hey, callahan.

402 wintercat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:04:40pm

The bill says that the government agents, "well-trained and competent staff," would "provide parents with knowledge of age-appropriate child development in cognitive, language, social, emotional, and motor domains ... modeling, consulting, and coaching on parenting practices," and "skills to interact with their child to enhance age-appropriate development."

Just saw this on Town Hall. Don't know how reliable these guys are. Not sure I like the words agents. Most likely, if this is an accurate account of what is in the bill these people would be Social Workers.

403 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:04:43pm
404 HelloDare  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:05:10pm


New Poster Reveals the Ugly Face of Racism/

405 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:05:22pm

re: #398 EmmmieG

Wanna be really mad? My aunt is a high school principal at a school in an unnamed state. (Actually, they did name it, but I'm not going to use the name. It's not like the horse in that song.)

She has a student in her school who already has seriously messed up parents. The girl, at 12, has a medical marijuana prescription, and actually goes across the street to smoke the joints. In front of the other students. There is nothing my aunt can do, and no, she doesn't think it's a valid prescription.

Wow. She can't get CPS, DFACS or whatever they call it to intervene?

406 jcbunga  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:05:54pm

I have a question and then a follow-up question--if I may.
1. Where in the Constitution is the Federal Government empowered to reallocate resources to provide healthcare?
2. Will the President, the House and the Senate be required to participate?

407 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:06:05pm

re: #395 zombie

I support medical marijuana is such exact circumstances as your friend's - which is why I voted for medical pot.

However, the vast majority of prescription-users in California now do not have leukemia, AIDS, cancer, or anything serious -- or anything at all. They just want weed, and they want it for free. And they get it.

Shhh! Don't give Prez Obama any more ideas for health reform, like some of that free "opiate of the masses" stuff.

408 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:06:10pm

re: #401 doppelganglander

Hey, callahan.

Late in and soon will I need to get some sleep again.
How are ya doing today?

409 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:06:32pm

Mr. President, as support continues to fall for this health care plan, will you be instructing AG Holder to step up the investigations on the past administration?

410 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:07:18pm

re: #405 doppelganglander

I can't go into details without revealing the identity of a minor, but the family is already seriously, seriously messed up, and I would be that CPS already has a file.

411 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:07:21pm

re: #395 zombie

I support medical marijuana is such exact circumstances as your friend's - which is why I voted for medical pot.

However, the vast majority of prescription-users in California now do not have leukemia, AIDS, cancer, or anything serious -- or anything at all. They just want weed, and they want it for free. And they get it.

Local reporter in San Diego did an article about a year ago. He went around to a few shops and asked around on how to get a prescription. Went to the Doc they recommended and after paying the "referral charge" of $200 and answering questions like "Do you feel bad? Are you in any kind of pain", got a prescription in less than 30 minutes and a list of dispensaries for free medical MJ. Now the thing is, the dispensaries operate on a donation basis and unless a donation was made, then they seem to be out of stock.

412 yesandno  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:07:40pm

re: #402 wintercat

The bill says that the government agents, "well-trained and competent staff," would "provide parents with knowledge of age-appropriate child development in cognitive, language, social, emotional, and motor domains ... modeling, consulting, and coaching on parenting practices," and "skills to interact with their child to enhance age-appropriate development."

Just saw this on Town Hall. Don't know how reliable these guys are. Not sure I like the words agents. Most likely, if this is an accurate account of what is in the bill these people would be Socialist Workers.

FTFY

413 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:08:40pm

re: #398 EmmmieG

Wanna be really mad? My aunt is a high school principal at a school in an unnamed state. (Actually, they did name it, but I'm not going to use the name. It's not like the horse in that song.)

She has a student in her school who already has seriously messed up parents. The girl, at 12, has a medical marijuana prescription, and actually goes across the street to smoke the joints. In front of the other students. There is nothing my aunt can do, and no, she doesn't think it's a valid prescription.

I know similar situation in a school near here with one difference: The kids don't go across the street to light up -- they do it right on the school campus, with the administration's blessing (they don't want to get sued for discrimination -- it is a legal prescription after all).

And yes, that says "kids" -- it's a whole clique of legalized junior potheads.

414 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:08:42pm

re: #410 EmmmieG

I can't go into details without revealing the identity of a minor, but the family is already seriously, seriously messed up, and I would be that CPS already has a file.

I understand. I certainly hope something is being done.

415 countrygurl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:09:00pm

re: #103 wintercat

Ok, my question. You reasoned today that the reason that Congress won't sign on to this health care plan is because they already have a great plan. Well, I do too. Why am I supposed to give up my plan when my elected officials are not required to?


Profound observation.

416 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:09:10pm

Given that current run government health care has $32 Trillion in unfunded mandates, in the real world that is broke as broke can be. Where specifically is the funding to keep government run health care for everyone coming from?

417 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:09:59pm

re: #408 callahan23

Late in and soon will I need to get some sleep again.
How are ya doing today?

Fair to middlin'. I wish you were in a closer time zone so we could enjoy your company more.

418 Ay, Caramba  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:11:03pm

re: #412 yesandno

FTFY

I wonder how these gov agents will react when some of these kids have their own rifles and go hunting with their dads. Will this be considered an activity that is age appropriate.

419 jcbunga  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:11:25pm

Mr. President, yesterday you said "Some people are saying we should be afraid of Canadians."

Who, specifically said we should be afraid of Canadian? You may be confused. I don't think it means what you think it means. I think it's been noted that the Canadian healthcare program is a disaster, not that we should be afraid of Canadians.

I mean personally, I love Don Cherry.

420 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:12:35pm

re: #395 zombie

I support medical marijuana is such exact circumstances as your friend's - which is why I voted for medical pot.

However, the vast majority of prescription-users in California now do not have leukemia, AIDS, cancer, or anything serious -- or anything at all. They just want weed, and they want it for free. And they get it.

The "free" part is what I don't get. We passed a medical marijuana bill earlier this year and there's no provision for free joints. People who want it will pay and they don't really care how much if it works for them.

421 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:13:33pm
422 Dahveed  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:13:45pm

Earlier I asked the same question that has been posted several times in this thread. The banks failed even though they are regulated by the government, social security is going bankrupt, and education is a shambles though government oversses education.

Other questions -

Will taxpaying citizens be required to pay for illegal immigrants? If so, isn't this one of the reasons that California is unable to pay its bills?

If someone on the public option overdoses on cocaine, am I, a responsible citizen, required to cover that person's healthcare though they commited an illegal act?

423 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:14:14pm

re: #417 doppelganglander

Fair to middlin'. I wish you were in a closer time zone so we could enjoy your company more.

My thinking since quite some time. Alas family matters need resolving first and then immigration is not that easy to acquire.
Given good luck I hope to be living in the US as soon as possible.

424 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:16:12pm

re: #411 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Local reporter in San Diego did an article about a year ago. He went around to a few shops and asked around on how to get a prescription. Went to the Doc they recommended and after paying the "referral charge" of $200 and answering questions like "Do you feel bad? Are you in any kind of pain", got a prescription in less than 30 minutes and a list of dispensaries for free medical MJ. Now the thing is, the dispensaries operate on a donation basis and unless a donation was made, then they seem to be out of stock.

Again- so what? I know people who have been put on powerful prescription anti-depressants after one hour long discussion with a doctor. Is that any better? It's a part of human nature- we will look for some sort of stimulant to avoid dealing with ourselves and others- be it drinking, drugs or some sort of physical activity (thrill seeking, for example).

The only thing different here is the stigmatizing on marijuana. I think it's wrong and based on decades old demonization with no basis in truth, and serves the interests of other good old boy networks more than it serves humanity. This is a natural plant with beneficial properties- why is it so hated? Weird.

425 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:16:33pm

re: #419 jcbunga

I mean personally, I love Don Cherry.

Oh. The hockey guy, not the (American born) jazz musician, or the singer/golfer. (So that's who wrote "Band of Gold!")

426 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:16:39pm

re: #413 zombie

I know similar situation in a school near here with one difference: The kids don't go across the street to light up -- they do it right on the school campus, with the administration's blessing (they don't want to get sued for discrimination -- it is a legal prescription after all).

And yes, that says "kids" -- it's a whole clique of legalized junior potheads.

That just grinds my butt. How come they can't just score a dime bag off some dude in a van like the rest of us some kids I knew.

427 yesandno  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:17:24pm

re: #418 Ay, Caramba

I wonder how these gov agents will react when some of these kids have their own rifles and go hunting with their dads. Will this be considered an activity that is age appropriate.

Well, the whole point is to catch them early...then they report to the gov't site that Daddy wants to teach them to hunt. Daddy looses parental rights. Child grows up hating guns, saving whales, driving a motor-bike wearing only natural fabrics. He is peaceful and bows before the small bug in his backyard chewing on the tree. He only gets iritated by the hate mongering conservatives and has been known to go with his union buddies to knock some sense into those rabble rousers with the baseball bat he never used because trees can use the land better then 18 ugly humans running around the bases.

So you see, they won't be caught with a gun...

428 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:17:25pm

re: #402 wintercat

The bill says that the government agents, "well-trained and competent staff," would "provide parents with knowledge of age-appropriate child development in cognitive, language, social, emotional, and motor domains ... modeling, consulting, and coaching on parenting practices," and "skills to interact with their child to enhance age-appropriate development."

Just saw this on Town Hall. Don't know how reliable these guys are. Not sure I like the words agents. Most likely, if this is an accurate account of what is in the bill these people would be Social Workers.

The author is Chuck Norris, so with all due respect, I give less weight to his interpretation than that of someone with more education and experience in these matters. Second, this sort of thing is commonly done by states dealing with low-income, at-risk families. A good program to educate parents is more effective than Head Start, and prevention is always cheaper than treatment. However, considering who is putting forward this plan, and the faceless bureaucrats who will administer it, I think it's likely that it will be more intrusive and less effective than state programs that are tailored to the needs of a local population whose needs are well known to the authorities. If it's mandatory for all families, as the quote seems to imply, then it's downright chilling.

429 JenBee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:18:14pm

Why bother asking Obama anything? He'll just lie right to your face anyway.

430 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:19:04pm

Alas, dinner is ready and I have to leave you all. Take care!

431 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:19:17pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

I'm totally OK if anyone wants to grow their own - for personal use. Just don't ask me to pay for your medical care when you are older.

432 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:20:13pm

you want pot?...grow your own
you want beer or wine?...make it yourself
the feds have no business getting into wine and pot...
make some laws, then leave it alone...
personal responsibility trumps govt intrusion

433 yesandno  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:20:34pm

re: #423 callahan23

My thinking since quite some time. Alas family matters need resolving first and then immigration is not that easy to acquire.
Given good luck I hope to be living in the US as soon as possible.


Do hurry.

From what I understand all immgrants...even the illegals...will be counted in the next census. You have the ability to help put another Congressperson in New Mexico or Arizona!

434 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:20:36pm

Catalina webcam - Avalon

435 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:20:37pm

re: #431 Racer X

I'm totally OK if anyone wants to grow their own - for personal use. Just don't ask me to pay for your medical care when you are older.

And don't ask me to employ you if you are a recreational user.

436 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:21:00pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

Again- so what? I know people who have been put on powerful prescription anti-depressants after one hour long discussion with a doctor. Is that any better? It's a part of human nature- we will look for some sort of stimulant to avoid dealing with ourselves and others- be it drinking, drugs or some sort of physical activity (thrill seeking, for example).

The only thing different here is the stigmatizing on marijuana. I think it's wrong and based on decades old demonization with no basis in truth, and serves the interests of other good old boy networks more than it serves humanity. This is a natural plant with beneficial properties- why is it so hated? Weird.

Personally, I dont care either way. What I do care about is with the state in a budget collapse, they're talking about legalizing it so they can tax it for revenue. Makes you wonder what else they might decide to legalize if they really decided they need the money.

437 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:21:23pm

re: #430 doppelganglander

Alas, dinner is ready and I have to leave you all. Take care!

Enjoy your meal and see you around. {doppelganglander}

438 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:21:37pm

re: #435 Wendya

And don't ask me to employ you if you are a recreational user.


How would you know?

439 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:21:38pm

re: #435 Wendya

And don't ask me to employ you if you are a recreational user.

fine...and then some

440 Scion9  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:22:34pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

If it was legal, I'd have no bones with people going and buying it. I'm personally completely drug free, don't drink one drop, don't smoke at all. I hang out with a lot of people that do, and have no issues with their personal choices at all. However, cigarettes and beer aren't 'medical' despite both alcohol and nicotine haven't potentially beneficial properties for certain users as well. The same could be said for basically any drug.

If it is a 'medicine' I don't want it given away to recreational drug users at the expense of taxpayers. The whole issue has nothing to do with 'demonization'. If people want pot just to get high and have no medical issues then that has absolutely nothing to do with healthcare. Zombie's original question was totally legitimate.

441 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:22:40pm
442 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:22:41pm

re: #436 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Personally, I dont care either way. What I do care about is with the state in a budget collapse, they're talking about legalizing it so they can tax it for revenue. Makes you wonder what else they might decide to legalize if they really decided they need the money.

that's the towering hypocricy right there...same with their oil reserves

443 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:23:28pm

re: #433 yesandno

Do hurry.

From what I understand all immgrants...even the illegals...will be counted in the next census. You have the ability to help put another Congressperson in New Mexico or Arizona!

I would be honored to help out.

444 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:23:31pm

re: #438 BignJames

How would you know?

I drug test all employees. It's a huge liability issue for me.

445 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:24:18pm

re: #443 callahan23

I would be honored to help out.

May I suggest New Mexico...

446 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:24:24pm

re: #444 Wendya

I drug test all employees. It's a huge liability issue for me.


Do you have Govt. contracts?

447 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:24:27pm
448 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:24:33pm

re: #441 buzzsawmonkey

I don't have the feet to make my own Chateau Lafite.

I've been drunk at Lafites...
and Tips

449 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:24:41pm

"Consumer driven healthcare represents the epitome of freedom in the medical decision making process and therefore should be embraced by all Americans. We must remember that freedom allows an individual to choose from all options available to him in any given situation, accepting that not each individual will have the same array of options because of reasons which are either natural or acquired. Freedom does not entitle an individual to any particular service at the expense of another."
From the American Thinker.

450 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:25:01pm

How about. STAY the hell out.

451 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:25:07pm

re: #446 BignJames

Do you have Govt. contracts?

At times.

452 Cliff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:25:08pm

Since the majority of the cost of health care is due to the high cost of malpractice insurance, would your plan allow citizens to sue the government for malpractice?

453 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:25:08pm

Harry "Real Estate" Reid is in trouble.

Reid would lose if Lowden were to run

454 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:25:28pm

re: #450 Dustoff-507

How about. STAY the hell out.

Hey Dustoff!

455 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:25:56pm

re: #451 Wendya

At times.


Random testing?

456 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:26:13pm

re: #431 Racer X

I'm totally OK if anyone wants to grow their own - for personal use. Just don't ask me to pay for your medical care when you are older.

This is why I support decriminalization. Why can't the prescription serve as a license to grow? Why separate clinics and not a pharmacy? Why is this being treated as if it's still somehow dirty and nefarious? There are special interests involved, and this plant can't get a fair debate. Liberty can't get a fair debate. What if I'm at a party and want to smoke a joint? Why do I need a medical need/prescription for a party? It's all silly to me. I think more people need to partake in some occasional pot smoking. Lighten up, people.

457 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:26:19pm

re: #453 jcm

couldnt happen to a lower skunk if you ask me

458 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:26:27pm

re: #455 BignJames

Random testing?

Yep. It's a condition of employment. It's also a requirement prior to employment.

459 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:26:41pm

re: #438 BignJames

Drug screen. I have a robust random testing program - heavy machines and toxic chemicals do not mix with users of any sort. One wrong move and we could wipe out the city where my plant is located.

460 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:27:13pm

re: #450 Dustoff-507

You need to form that in a phrase of a question, Alex.

461 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:27:14pm

re: #447 buzzsawmonkey

YOU really want to know?

Grab YOUR barf bag...

462 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:27:16pm

re: #458 Wendya

Yep. It's a condition of employment. It's also a requirement prior to employment.

But, but, what about my rights to be a pot head?

///

463 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:29:45pm

re: #460 ArmyWife

You need to form that in a phrase of a question, Alex.


Do we start the double jeopardy round when the bill gets passed?

464 wintercat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:31:33pm

Here's my last question. Will the government please just stay the heck out of my life?

465 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:31:45pm

re: #462 jcm

But, but, what about my rights to be a pot head?

///

if that's the case there is always Burger King...I had few rules for my teens...they could choose their friends and go off and do whatever they wanted...but drugs and alcohol were forbidden...break that rule and you will be lucky to survive my wrath, period, and they knew I meant it

466 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:32:06pm

re: #462 jcm

But, but, what about my rights to be a pot head?

///

Anyone has a right to be a pot head or a casual user if they wish. They do not have a right to work for me. Same goes for facial/neck/sleeve tats, facial piercings. In my industry, we need to be as pure as the driven snow.

467 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:32:21pm

UN Envoy to Burma Calls for 'Immediate Release' of Aung San Suu Kyi

The U.N.'s Special Advisor on Burma, Ibrahim Gambari, says he is "extremely disappointed" with the outcome of opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi's trial and called on Burmese authorities to release her immediately. After the verdict was announced on Tuesday, Gambari said he would continue to work for her freedom as well as that of hundreds of other Burmese political prisoners.

The verdict from the Burmese court was an additional three years in prison for democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi. But a short time later, the government announced that the country's leader, Senior General Than Shwe, had ordered the sentence commuted to 1 1/2 years under house arrest.

Aung San Suu Kyi has already spent 14 of the last 20 years in detention, mostly under house arrest.

In a statement, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon expressed his "deep disappointment" with the verdict and said he "strongly deplores" the decision.

Oh! deeply disappointed, the thugs are shaking at that pronouncement...

With laughter.

468 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:32:22pm

re: #458 Wendya

re: #459 ArmyWife

I'm subject to random testing. Here's how it works. I'm the HR rep. for my dept. One of the guys asks me how the testing program works. I call and ask Personnel Dept...making it very clear that I'm asking for one of the guys in the dept...'cuz I don't really care. I go on vacation. I come back to work...boom...called in for a drug test...coincidence?...sure.

469 yochanan  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:32:25pm

tort reform

470 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:32:48pm

re: #465 albusteve

if that's the case there is always Burger King...I had few rules for my teens...they could choose their friends and go off and do whatever they wanted...but drugs and alcohol were forbidden...break that rule and you will be lucky to survive my wrath, period, and they knew I meant it

Dude...Exactly! You are a good Dad.

471 ThisisMatt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:32:50pm

Mr. President,

Medicaid is constantly brought up as an example of government's successful involvement in health care, but has anyone studied the impact of Medicaid's falling payments schedules on the total of the medical market? If government decides to pay less, and the doctors and institutions are forced to accept, would not a prudent provider charge the private carriers more to avoid losing money. What is going to happen when doctors and hospitals no longer have a way to make up the revenue government takes away? If it does not, will not the providers reduce non-profitable services?

Government may not make the decision to ration health care, but the market will search for a balance between costs and revenues and effective "rationing" will occur.

472 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:33:07pm

re: #466 Wendya

Anyone has a right to be a pot head or a casual user if they wish. They do not have a right to work for me. Same goes for facial/neck/sleeve tats, facial piercings. In my industry, we need to be as pure as the driven snow.

Wow, are you a member of congress?

473 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:33:10pm
474 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:33:27pm

re: #466 Wendya

Anyone has a right to be a pot head or a casual user if they wish. They do not have a right to work for me. Same goes for facial/neck/sleeve tats, facial piercings. In my industry, we need to be as pure as the driven snow.

POT HEADIST!

Your repressing me man!

/;-P

I spent most of my working life with random testing...

475 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:33:33pm

re: #395 zombie

I support medical marijuana is such exact circumstances as your friend's - which is why I voted for medical pot.

However, the vast majority of prescription-users in California now do not have leukemia, AIDS, cancer, or anything serious -- or anything at all. They just want weed, and they want it for free. And they get it.

I am not in California, but I can testify to this as far as Pennsylvania.

The amount of prescription drug abuse is incredible. I was a fairly staunch opponent of legalization for medical purposes because of the tertiary arguments, but a discussion with Realwest about the subject allowed me to reevaluate my feelings about it.

The funny thing, is that if you were to dive into how the government pays for things, they cross-code multiple code sets in order to determine what is reimbursable. In a sense, a particular diagnosis code must jive with a certain procedure code, etc.

As someone who takes essentially the same position as you do, it would be nice to see a system where those cases where I think it would be totally valid like the ones described, have to meet such a threshold.

It could possibly have an effect on the malingerers who claim off the wall symptoms, and get their fix for less than legitimate purposes.

476 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:33:51pm

A couple of weeks ago I saw the question of being able to buy insurance across state lines raised, which would provide a lot more competition than a "public option". Is there a reason I'm not hearing that question lately?

477 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:34:23pm

re: #472 n in wi

Wow, are you a member of congress?

If I were a member of congress, I wouldn't worry about licensing, insurance, liability, etc... I'd do whatever the hell I wanted knowing I couldn't be sued.

478 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:34:40pm

re: #469 yochanan

tort reform

*Homer Simpson voice*

mmm, tort

479 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:35:31pm

re: #440 Scion9

I don't disagree with your points at all. However, this also has to do with previous comments demonizing marijuana from zombie. I question how much this position is based on fiscal principles, and how much of it is based on a previously observed hatred for this plant. I haven't taken issue with zombie's fiscal argument at all.

480 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:35:50pm

re: #477 Wendya

If I were a member of congress, I wouldn't worry about licensing, insurance, liability, etc... I'd do whatever the hell I wanted knowing I couldn't be sued.

But wouldn't you still need to be "As clean as the wind driven snow"?
///

481 wintercat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:36:23pm

Ok, well I am so sick of all this health care talk. Bye for now.

482 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:37:25pm

re: #478 jcm

*Homer Simpson voice*

mmm, tort

Yummy, you are torturing meee !

483 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:37:47pm

re: #481 wintercat

Ok, well I am so sick of all this health care talk. Bye for now.

Careful...that's prolly billable.

484 born conservative  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:37:52pm

I would ask Obama why he doesn't concentrate on increasing supply instead of rationing and control in order to reduce costs. For example:

1) Tort reform to reduce liability insurance costs
2) Tax incentives for drug companies, hospitals, etc
3) Roll back mandates -- I don't have the exact dates and numbers, but I believe gov' t mandates have increased from approx 200 to 2000 over the past two decades or so -- ie insurance companies have to cover Viagra prescriptions
4) Allow interstate competition between insurance companies
5) Incentives for students who choose medicine over law

485 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:38:03pm

re: #470 HoosierHoops

Dude...Exactly! You are a good Dad.

I got calls about poker parties a 100 miles away...impromtu road trips...tell me where you are, that's all I ask...see you tomorrow dad!...cool enough, I was the same way...other behaviors were not so simple...do unto others and don't disrupt your dad's vibe...my kids were all over the place...they are both tough and smart for it...jus sayin

486 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:38:34pm

re: #481 wintercat

Ok, well I am so sick of all this health care talk. Bye for now.

Sorry that's not covered but your comment has been forwarded to flag@whitehouse.gove

487 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:39:08pm

re: #476 wrenchwench

A couple of weeks ago I saw the question of being able to buy insurance across state lines raised, which would provide a lot more competition than a "public option". Is there a reason I'm not hearing that question lately?

As it stands now, each state is allowed to set up their own requirements for insurance companies. Under a federal program, every state would be required to adhere to the same standards. That should allow people to keep insurance with the same company regardless of where they live. What I suspect is that this will cause a situation in which we have a few mega-insurance companies because the smaller outfits won't be able to make money with a limited number of policies competing with companies that have million dollar advertising budgets. But I'm sure that was completely unintended...

488 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:39:15pm

re: #485 albusteve

I got calls about poker parties a 100 miles away...impromtu road trips...tell me where you are, that's all I ask...see you tomorrow dad!...cool enough, I was the same way...other behaviors were not so simple...do unto others and don't disrupt your dad's vibe...my kids were all over the place...they are both tough and smart for it...jus sayin

But I bet they earned that trust!

489 yochanan  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:39:51pm

re: #473 buzzsawmonkey

Image: File:LawyerJokes1900Closeup.JPG

490 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:41:16pm

re: #475 formercorpsman

It could possibly have an effect on the malingerers who claim off the wall symptoms, and get their fix for less than legitimate purposes.

No more or less than the prescription drug abusers you mentioned in your second paragraph.

People abuse drugs. They will come up with a lot of ways to achieve their goal- from lying to their doctor to the black market. I get it- no one wants to pay for other people's drug habits- whatever they may be, and I don't disagree. But it's really interesting to watch how this one drug gets treated so differently than all the others.

491 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:41:58pm

World Clock

Interesting numbers.

Not for the paranoid. ;)

492 mich-again  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:42:09pm

In general I try to avoid doctors and lawyers. I've had full health care for the last 25 years at my job and I bet I've been to a doctors office maybe 10 times. Never spent a night in a hospital. Never had an operation. I should get some kind of refund no?

493 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:42:34pm

re: #488 jcm

But I bet they earned that trust!

golden, both of them...rock steady

494 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:42:39pm

Inside Barringer Meteor Crater

495 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:42:57pm

re: #485 albusteve

I got calls about poker parties a 100 miles away...impromtu road trips...tell me where you are, that's all I ask...see you tomorrow dad!...cool enough, I was the same way...other behaviors were not so simple...do unto others and don't disrupt your dad's vibe...my kids were all over the place...they are both tough and smart for it...jus sayin

Our oldest Son is something else.. I got to give him props...All the kids followed him around like a hero...Just the most wonderful big brother any family could ever ask for...Never once in my life did I ever worry about the kids hanging with big bro...A wonderful role model and big brother...

496 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:43:07pm
497 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:43:49pm

re: #493 albusteve

golden, both of them...rock steady

Send me your book! ;-)
Mine are still little!

498 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:44:14pm

re: #456 Sharmuta

What if I'm at a party and want to smoke a joint? Why do I need a medical need/prescription for a party? It's all silly to me. I think more people need to partake in some occasional pot smoking.

Honesty is the best policy.

You want an increase in pot smoking. I don't -- I see it as a waste of human potential. (I think THC should be re-classified as a "motivation antagonist." )

We can agree to disagree.

499 yesandno  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:44:56pm

President Obama:

You are in a boat with Harry Reid, Nancyy Pelosi, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and Henry Waxman. The boat is taking on water and one of you has to jump ship so that the other's can be saved.

Who will be the first thrown overboard?

500 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:45:09pm

re: #479 Sharmuta

Actually, Zombie was attempting to illuminate the disparity of the subject by focusing on those groups suing the medical arguments such as cancer, aids, etc. When obviously their motives are nefarious to that.

Funny, because I take Zombie's word that he/she voted for the legislation based upon how it presented.

As far as having the State pick up the tab for some kid who claims fibromyalgia? Furthermore, getting the prescription, and sharing it with a friend, that would be against the law.

501 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:45:16pm

re: #498 zombie


We can agree to disagree.

NO, WE CAN'T

/Sorry, making up for lost time during the day

502 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:45:29pm

re: #499 yesandno

President Obama:

You are in a boat with Harry Reid, Nancyy Pelosi, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and Henry Waxman. The boat is taking on water and one of you has to jump ship so that the other's can be saved.

Who will be the first thrown overboard?

Me, I'm swimming like hell for shore...

503 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:45:49pm

re: #498 zombie

Yes- I'm well aware of your marijuana bigotry.

504 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:45:53pm

re: #495 HoosierHoops

Our oldest Son is something else.. I got to give him props...All the kids followed him around like a hero...Just the most wonderful big brother any family could ever ask for...Never once in my life did I ever worry about the kids hanging with big bro...A wonderful role model and big brother...

give yourself a big old back slap...that stuff does not just come from nowhere...security for a teen parent is priceless...you knew that

505 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:46:57pm

Must-resist-temptation-to-comment-on-marijuana.

506 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:47:02pm

re: #497 jcm

Send me your book! ;-)
Mine are still little!

keep it simple...kids love simplicity

507 Racer X  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:47:28pm

Weed makes you angry.

/just sayin.

508 mich-again  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:47:52pm

re: #499 yesandno

You are in a boat with Harry Reid, Nancyy Pelosi, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and Henry Waxman. The boat is taking on water and one of you has to jump ship so that the other's can be saved.

Wax floats. I'd toss him.

509 LGoPs  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:48:05pm

re: #505 Gus 802

Must-resist-temptation-to-comment-on-marijuana.

I was going to comment but I forgot what I was going to say...
/

510 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:48:54pm

Already I need to take my leave.
Gals 'n guys, Lizards and 'menschen'.
See y'all down the road.
I love you (Lizardim} - mostly. Really!

511 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:48:56pm

re: #509 LGoPs

I was going to comment but I forgot what I was going to say...
/

Like wow man. Wasn't it like something about world hunger man?

//

512 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:48:57pm

re: #509 LGoPs

I was going to comment but I forgot what I was going to say...
/

Doritos?

513 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:49:02pm

re: #479 Sharmuta

I don't disagree with your points at all. However, this also has to do with previous comments demonizing marijuana from zombie. I question how much this position is based on fiscal principles, and how much of it is based on a previously observed hatred for this plant. I haven't taken issue with zombie's fiscal argument at all.

I hate lots of plants. I'm a regular plant-hater.

I hate deadly nightshade, Death Cap mushrooms, durian, unripe persimmons, kudzu, crabgrass, triffids, and that thing from The Little House of Horrors. The list goes on. I'm simply prejudiced against plants.

514 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:49:12pm

re: #507 Racer X

Weed makes you angry.

/just sayin.

beer makes me a jolly fellow!...
both are depressants btw

515 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:49:17pm

re: #509 LGoPs

I was going to comment but I forgot what I was going to say...
/


That is so knarly,dude

516 LGoPs  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:49:26pm

re: #499 yesandno

President Obama:

You are in a boat with Harry Reid, Nancyy Pelosi, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and Henry Waxman. The boat is taking on water and one of you has to jump ship so that the other's can be saved.

Who will be the first thrown overboard?

Nancy's a witch and everyone knows that witches float. So...,I'd tie a rock around her and throw her overboard...
/

517 yesandno  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:49:26pm

re: #508 mich-again

Wax floats. I'd toss him.

Even with that nose? :>)

518 Gus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:49:37pm

re: #510 callahan23

Already I need to take my leave.
Gals 'n guys, Lizards and 'menschen'.
See y'all down the road.
I love you (Lizardim} - mostly. Really!

Hasta later Callahan.

519 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:49:56pm

re: #500 formercorpsman

Excuse me? Whose motivations are nefarious when Americans are denied their liberty? I'm not the one who thinks marijuana smokers are dregs of society worthy of criminal status.

520 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:50:02pm

re: #490 Sharmuta

Well, to be honest, chronic use has many detrimental health effects as well. In ways like tobacco, there could be health related issues the public might be responsible for picking the tab up for.

But the crux of the situation is this. I see all sides of this argument.

I don't think the casual user should be demonized either. I do think there are people who can treat it like alcohol, and keep things under control. But we also have laws that apply to people who consume alcohol, and alcohol related issues.

I don't know what the answer is. I am still chewing on it.

So what is not a good answer though.

521 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:50:03pm

re: #502 jcm

Me, I'm swimming like hell for shore...

Hollow out Barney Frank, use Reid and Waxman as outriggers for balance and use Pelosi as an oar.

See how often the simple answers elude us?

522 LGoPs  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:50:12pm

re: #513 zombie

I hate lots of plants. I'm a regular plant-hater.

I hate deadly nightshade, Death Cap mushrooms, durian, unripe persimmons, kudzu, crabgrass, triffids, and that thing from The Little House of Horrors. The list goes on. I'm simply prejudiced against plants.

PLANTIST!

523 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:50:32pm

re: #468 BignJames

I am the HR Director for my company. We have a computerized random generator, and because I have 6 unions that I deal with, went a step further to have a neutral third party certify the program as, in fact, random. Because it is random, a person has the chance of being called once, twice, 10 times during the course of the year just as people have won the lottery on multiple occasions. I had one guy called 3 times in a row - I asked him to buy me a lottery ticket.

I can't speak to the program your company uses, I can only speak for mine. If you are in HR, though, you ought to know how it works I'd think.

524 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:50:38pm

re: #517 yesandno

Even with that nose? :>)

automatic waterboarding

525 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:50:49pm

re: #498 zombie

Honesty is the best policy.

You want an increase in pot smoking. I don't -- I see it as a waste of human potential. (I think THC should be re-classified as a "motivation antagonist." )

We can agree to disagree.

good grief...a waste of human potential to smoke a joint?...that's pure hysteria

526 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:50:56pm

re: #513 zombie

Amusing.

527 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:51:07pm

Sorry everyone. Had a phone call. (my Granddaughter called) (-:

528 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:51:12pm

re: #525 albusteve

good grief...a waste of human potential to smoke a joint?...that's pure hysteria

Thank you.

529 brookly red  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:51:38pm

re: #514 albusteve

beer makes me a jolly fellow!...
both are depressants btw

running out of beer depresses me.

530 mich-again  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:52:07pm

re: #507 Racer X

Weed makes you angry.


I never saw anyone who was just high that wanted to fight. Mix it with alcohol, all bets are off.

531 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:52:08pm

re: #519 Sharmuta

Are you kidding? Who said that?

The only saying it is you.

I think the point of a couple of posters is quite clear.

532 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:52:15pm

The prefect thing for those office meetings...

Liveleak Video
533 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:52:44pm

re: #525 albusteve

good grief...a waste of human potential to smoke a joint?...that's pure hysteria

Do you know of anyone over the age of 20,that is a regular user, that you would consider produtive?

534 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:52:53pm

re: #520 formercorpsman

Well, to be honest, chronic use has many detrimental health effects as well. In ways like tobacco, there could be health related issues the public might be responsible for picking the tab up for.

But the crux of the situation is this. I see all sides of this argument.

I don't think the casual user should be demonized either. I do think there are people who can treat it like alcohol, and keep things under control. But we also have laws that apply to people who consume alcohol, and alcohol related issues.

I don't know what the answer is. I am still chewing on it.

So what is not a good answer though.

Twinkie overdose?...chew on that

535 mich-again  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:53:08pm

re: #517 yesandno

Even with that nose? :>)


What nose?

536 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:53:32pm

re: #460 ArmyWife

NO... Sorry, but as a person who deals with uncle sam ALL day long.
I do not want them in my life!!! PERIOD.

537 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:54:09pm

re: #536 Dustoff-507

Are you still active? Were you with the 507th?

538 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:54:10pm

re: #534 albusteve

Steve, you will notice I made the effort to differentiate those who are casual users, and those who are abusers.

COPD.

539 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:54:22pm

re: #531 formercorpsman

No on POT... it's become a joke for health services.

540 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:54:22pm

re: #504 albusteve

give yourself a big old back slap...that stuff does not just come from nowhere...security for a teen parent is priceless...you knew that


Thanks Steve. you rock...But as all parents of teens know..
The difference between a pat on the back or a kick in the ass is about 24 inches...
Kind regards...
I enjoyed our conversation about Ball last night.. Did you know I'm trying to get Larry Bird to do a pregame Pacer game Charity this season called Hoops for Troops I think It would be a really big boost the morale of our troops..I got a lot of good Ideas...Larry may hate me...LOL

541 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:54:25pm

re: #533 n in wi

Do you know of anyone over the age of 20,that is a regular user, that you would consider produtive?

yes, myself

542 Ojoe  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:54:36pm

My question would be,

"Why Mr. Obama, are you promoting new legislation, health care in this instance? It is the job of Congress to write new laws, and it is the job of the Executive to see that they are carried out. I see nothing in the constitution that gives the executive the job of legislating. Please explain to me your reasons for overstepping your constitutional authority."

543 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:54:59pm

re: #503 Sharmuta

Yes- I'm well aware of your marijuana bigotry.

Furthermore, I think joints should not be allowed to drink at the cigarettes' drinking fountains.

544 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:55:08pm

re: #536 Dustoff-507

NO... Sorry, but as a person who deals with uncle sam ALL day long.
I do not want them in my life!!! PERIOD.

OSHA is your friend.

Repeat after me...

OSHA is my friend.

*ducks*

545 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:55:17pm

re: #537 ArmyWife

I was with the 57th in NAM.. Came home to the 507 before I left the Army.
Both are GREAT groups.

546 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:55:34pm

re: #536 Dustoff-507

NO... Sorry, but as a person who deals with uncle sam ALL day long.
I do not want them in my life!!! PERIOD.

Quite Concur.

547 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:56:02pm

re: #544 jcm

Pissing me OFF are you. LOL.

I'm tearing Boeing as new A$$hole. LOL

548 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:56:06pm

re: #543 zombie

Yet twice now you've failed to deny my statements.

549 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:56:14pm

re: #539 Dustoff-507

I'm sorry Dustoff, I will admit, I don't know what you mean.

550 jones  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:56:15pm

re: #513 zombie

I hate lots of plants. I'm a regular plant-hater.

I hate deadly nightshade, Death Cap mushrooms, durian, unripe persimmons, kudzu, crabgrass, triffids, and that thing from The Little House of Horrors. The list goes on. I'm simply prejudiced against plants.

Burdock. I dream of killing burdock when I sleep. It is borderline a real problem with me.

551 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:57:09pm

re: #530 mich-again

I never saw anyone who was just high that wanted to fight. Mix it with alcohol, all bets are off.

I can personally attest to the theory that people who drink alcohol are more likely to become unruly or violent than someone who smokes pot. I've had to deal extensively with both and I'll take the pot smokers over the drunks any day.

552 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:57:30pm

Same with this death thing... GOV stay the HELL out. I deal with DNR way to many times.

553 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:57:54pm

re: #545 Dustoff-507

My husband was with the 507th for quite a few years. When I have your wounded means a lot to me.

554 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:58:07pm

The question I'd ask would be:

"Mr. President, given how government health care systems tend towards stagnation and rationing, how will your plan avoid these pitfalls? What will you do to ensure that America continues to be able to privately research and develop new treatments?"

555 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:58:11pm

re: #507 Racer X

Weed makes you angry.

/just sayin.

I must be smokin like a frickin chimney!

556 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:58:54pm

re: #549 formercorpsman

The thing on Pot buddy... it's become a joke on what it can or can't do... my state sucks. It's a free for all. Health my ass. Just get stoned!!!

557 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:59:23pm

re: #525 albusteve

good grief...a waste of human potential to smoke a joint?...that's pure hysteria

Overall, a society-wide waste of human potential, if enough people spend their days getting high rather than being creative or productive.

Look to Russia to see a nation whose potential is wasted due to rampant alcoholism.

Look to Yemen to see a nation whose potential is wasted due to rampant qat abuse.

Do we want to join that club?

558 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:59:26pm

If honesty is the best policy, zombie, then drop the snark and state your position for everyone here to read. You're a marijuana-phobe.

559 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:00:24pm

re: #551 Wendya

I've had to deal extensively with both and I'll take the pot smokers over the drunks any day.
+++++++++++++++

I've seen BOTH. Do your stuff at home and never drive.

560 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:01:13pm

re: #553 ArmyWife

Look up the 57th motto. We are the ones who set the std's for dustoff. (-:

561 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:01:15pm

re: #543 zombie

Furthermore, I think joints should not be allowed to drink at the cigarettes' drinking fountains.

Do you think a hundred years from now when we are all dead..That people will be drinking Martini's and smoking Joints and Cuban Cigars and laughing at us?
That sucks...

562 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:18pm

re: #557 zombie

Look to Yemen to see a nation whose potential is wasted due to rampant qat abuse.

QAT??? help me here.

563 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:18pm

re: #559 Dustoff-507

I

I've seen BOTH. Do your stuff at home and never drive.

My life would be much easier if that were the case.

564 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:24pm

She never mentions the word addiction,

565 yesandno  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:27pm

re: #558 Sharmuta

If honesty is the best policy, zombie, then drop the snark and state your position for everyone here to read. You're a marijuana-phobe.

Does this really matter?

566 arf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:32pm

449 n in wi I'll take that a step further to make it a question for the President.

Consumer-directed healthcare has all the things described, plus one more thing. It has data proving it works. Costs are controlled. Some carriers LOWERED premium on their HSA-compatible insurance, while the same carriers RAISED premium for their other lines. Acceptance is growing by leaps and bounds without government support. Government just has to get out of the way. It's about 20% of the private insurance market now.

Why is government contemplating every permutation of healthcare financing, EXCEPT the one with data supporting its use?

The HSA-compatible insurance that I have, allowed in my state, is not allowed in Massachusetts (the deductible is too high by their "standards"). It would not be allowed under the reforms being proposed. Yes, I understand I can "Keep my insurance". I also understand no one else would be allowed to CHOOSE that same insurance product if they don't have it already. An insurance plan that is not allowed new business will surely die. Then I will have to go public.

Why do you want to kill my chosen method if financing my healthcare? Are you afraid it won’t work? Frankly, Mr. President, I think your fear is it WILL work. Your biggest fear is keeping money and power in the hands of the middle class.

If you think the public option is needed to keep the private sector honest, how about passing the Shadegg bill? That allows purchase of healthcare across State lines. If I didn’t like a private plan, I could go public, supposedly to keep the private sector “honest”. How about if I don’t like my State’s rules? Instead of moving to another State, let me purchase insurance from another State. It’s a way to keep GOVERNMENT honest, the way you want to keep private insurance honest.

Would you support the Shadegg bill?

How’s that for a few questions that will never be allowed in the “town hall”.

567 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:43pm

in certain comp---any.

568 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:46pm

re: #562 Dustoff-507

Look to Yemen to see a nation whose potential is wasted due to rampant qat abuse.

QAT??? help me here.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

569 LGoPs  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:48pm

re: #536 Dustoff-507

NO... Sorry, but as a person who deals with uncle sam ALL day long.
I do not want them in my life!!! PERIOD.

A big fucking ditto to that.

570 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:02:51pm

re: #548 Sharmuta

Yet twice now you've failed to deny my statements.

I'm sorry Sharm, but I must side with Zombie. Marijuana drains people's will to get up and do things. That's a very bad effect, and in my mind reason enough to continue to restrict it. For certain illnesses I could see it being allowed, but not for recreational use. Full Disclosure: Personal experience with people close to me has left me fiercely anti-intoxicant. If the intoxicant can be effectively banned, I'm generally in favor of banning it.

571 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:03:04pm

re: #538 formercorpsman

Steve, you will notice I made the effort to differentiate those who are casual users, and those who are abusers.

COPD.

my browzer crashed...
yes I did and it's a legit argument in terms of health care...I suspect whenever the tobacco industry is held accountable, pot will fall in there someplace

572 LeslieG  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:04:09pm

Dear Mr. President:

According to the latest Rasmussen poll, 32% of voters favor the government providing single-payer health care, and 57% are opposed. The 32% in favor is primarily Democrats, 62% of whom are in favor, while 87% of Republicans and 63% of Independents are opposed.

So, here’s my question: Would you consider letting all who register as Democrats be automatically enrolled in a government-run health care plan, which must be fully supported by its members, and please leave the rest of us be to live?

573 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:04:16pm

re: #570 Dark_Falcon

So you would exert an authoritarian control over people because of your personal experiences while assuming everyone else must be as weak and incapable of showing moderation. Nice.

574 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:04:25pm

re: #554 Dark_Falcon

With (quote) 40+ million not in the health care system. What will happen when the are. Way don't have enough DOC's... Obama... you dumb ass!!!

575 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:04:57pm

re: #563 Wendya

LOL... not going to touch that one

576 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:05:22pm

re: #568 Wendya

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Khat is also widely used in Somalia. Islamist fighters often get hopped up on it before attacking.

577 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:05:24pm

re: #571 albusteve

Well, I fall into some strange middle somewhere.

My reason is, I think people should be allowed to smoke an occasional joint, drink alcohol, and smoke cigarettes.

The problem is, moderation. No doubt.

There are valid points on all sides of this argument.

578 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:05:57pm
579 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:06:13pm

re: #557 zombie

Overall, a society-wide waste of human potential, if enough people spend their days getting high rather than being creative or productive.

Look to Russia to see a nation whose potential is wasted due to rampant alcoholism.

Look to Yemen to see a nation whose potential is wasted due to rampant qat abuse.

Do we want to join that club?

don't be ridiculous...I don't give a fuck what they do in Yemen...do you know how much THC it takes to kill an elephant?...about the same argument

580 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:06:38pm

re: #578 buzzsawmonkey

Gee, I can see here just how much pot use mellows people out.

WTF is that supposed to mean?

581 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:06:45pm

re: #568 Wendya

LOL another way to get stoned...

582 yochanan  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:06:57pm

re: #498 zombie

unless you own a bakery if you own a bakery you might think of it as a way to increase sales.

583 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:07:22pm

re: #567 formercorpsman

in certain comp---any.


the pains gonna make everything alright

584 Mich-again  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:07:36pm

re: #564 formercorpsman

She never mentions the word addiction,

In certain company.

585 yochanan  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:08:44pm

re: #536 Dustoff-507

NO... Sorry, but as a person who deals with uncle sam ALL day long.
I do not want them in my life!!! PERIOD.

we are here from the gov't and we are here to help

586 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:09:22pm

re: #540 HoosierHoops

Thanks Steve. you rock...But as all parents of teens know..
The difference between a pat on the back or a kick in the ass is about 24 inches...
Kind regards...
I enjoyed our conversation about Ball last night.. Did you know I'm trying to get Larry Bird to do a pregame Pacer game Charity this season called Hoops for Troops I think It would be a really big boost the morale of our troops..I got a lot of good Ideas...Larry may hate me...LOL


Larry is the Man...get him and, voila!...problem solved

587 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:10:07pm

re: #579 albusteve

Actually Steve, I think if you give Zombie's post some perspective, the point has to do with a disproportionate number of people will lie, abuse, and malinger in the name of all the excuses cited for medical reasons so they can get their fix.

588 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:10:22pm

re: #577 formercorpsman

The bad part. Is when WE get called. )-:

Now think of this. For me, little booze, no drugs at all. Yet if uncle sam runs YOUR health care. Well, you figure it out?

589 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:10:59pm

re: #588 Dustoff-507

You know, that I know, that you know...

homina, homina, homina...

590 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:11:11pm

Sorry, gotta log off, family beckons. Have not read the last 50 comments or so -- so, sorry!

591 jorline  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:11:13pm

Mr. President
1. Who is your Czar of choice to head the implementation and manage Nationalized Health Care?
2. How many people will it employ?
3. What is the cost of implementation?
4. What is the annual budget to manage this program?
5. Who will train all of these new government workers and how long will this training take?
6. Is there an oversight committee?
7. How will patient communicate with the government...how many different languages will it take to successfully satisfy the needs of all the insured?

And last but not least...Will the US Health Care Call Center be based here in the States or overseas?

592 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:11:37pm

re: #580 Sharmuta

I can tell you this. Just like drunks. Neither can drive...

593 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:12:33pm

re: #580 Sharmuta

Youtube Video
594 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:12:50pm

re: #587 formercorpsman

Actually Steve, I think if you give Zombie's post some perspective, the point has to do with a disproportionate number of people will lie, abuse, and malinger in the name of all the excuses cited for medical reasons so they can get their fix.

kids have parents...it starts there...you can't malign some weed because parents won't control their children...children should not be smoking weed, obviously

595 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:13:15pm

re: #589 formercorpsman

LOL... OK you.
PUT down the damn beer! LOL

596 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:13:39pm

re: #573 Sharmuta

So you would exert an authoritarian control over people because of your personal experiences while assuming everyone else must be as weak and incapable of showing moderation. Nice.

It's not me that has the problem, Sharm. I admit to being deliberately vague in that post but I did so because the person who has the problem has requested that I not discuss matters related to them in any detail with anyone outside my immediate family other than my best friend.

And, truth to tell, I'm actually glad I don't have final authority of intoxicants. My own experiences do influence me inordinately and I would likely move for a command and control regime. That's why I am glad for democracy and free speech: When otherwise rational people lose it over an issue, those institutions allow others to respond, correct and counter them. I'm not always right, even if I sometimes think I am.

597 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:14:07pm

re: #590 zombie

Sorry, gotta log off, family beckons. Have not read the last 50 comments or so -- so, sorry!


too bad, you might have learned something

598 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:14:53pm

re: #594 albusteve

We agree. Sometimes though, it is out of the parents control.

But for the vast majority of it, we agree totally.

599 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:15:34pm

re: #591 jorline

Mr. President
1. Who is your Czar of choice to head the implementation and manage Nationalized Health Care?
2. How many people will it employ?
3. What is the cost of implementation?
4. What is the annual budget to manage this program?
5. Who will train all of these new government workers and how long will this training take?
6. Is there an oversight committee?
7. How will patient communicate with the government...how many different languages will it take to successfully satisfy the needs of all the insured?

And last but not least...Will the US Health Care Call Center be based here in the States or overseas?

The training material for the call center will be written in Hindi. Does that answer your question, buddy?

/Indian accent (kidding)

600 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:15:38pm

re: #581 Dustoff-507

LOL another way to get stoned...

People will always find a way.

601 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:15:54pm

And last but not least...Will the US Health Care Call Center be based here in the States or overseas?


Hello,my name is Abdul,press1 if you have a headache,press 2 if you have shortness of breath,press 3 if you have pain in any of your lower extremities...

602 Dustoff-507  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:16:07pm

OK guys I need to go... Before Charles kicks me. I was bad on the Palin thread. (-:

Have a great evening

603 tyree  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:16:32pm

Mr. President,
In the early 70's my fathers private medical practice was ruined by the lawsuit induced malpractice insurance crisis. He wasn't alone, that is why they called it a "crisis". Instead of instituting socialized medicine, why don't we try tort reform and then see how the open market responds?

Thank you for your time Mr. President.

604 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:17:16pm

got a browser problem...

605 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:17:47pm

re: #604 albusteve

No you don't, I laced your joint...

606 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:18:45pm

re: #596 Dark_Falcon

And that's all fine and good that you and others are happy with sobriety. The rest of use intoxicants on a range of levels. Some can handle the responsibility, and some can't. My problem is that when some decided no one can handle the responsibility- you punish the responsible and the irresponsible alike. I don't find that to be fair, nor does it mean I don't want consequences for the irresponsible.

607 haavamaal  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:19:02pm

My bro Jim took the time to read the health care bill and give a short synopsis of the section contained therein. Thanks Jim!!!

For those who haven’t had the opportunity to find out what insidious government intrusions and takeovers are included in this bill, which the current resident of the White House is promoting, it will simply amaze you.
As a reminder of how atrocious this piece of legislation is, first the official chart of the House plan.

[Link: thetexanpatriot.blogspot.com...]

608 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:19:42pm

re: #605 formercorpsman

Right- because anyone who would speak up favorably for marijuana reform must be a stoner.

609 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:20:55pm

re: #608 Sharmuta

What the hell are you driving at?

Good lord, I am joking around with him.

Ask him yourself.

You did post for everyone to lighten up.

610 jorline  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:21:32pm

re: #599 Dark_Falcon

The training material for the call center will be written in Hindi. Does that answer your question, buddy?

/Indian accent (kidding)

I want to hear the Indian accent on different Vietnamese and Korean dialects.

My wife teaches Spanish for Berlitz. Could be serious money to be made soon.

611 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:23:29pm

Late to the thread, but here goes -

If I am to take you at your word that the reform will not increase the debt or defecits, and if everyone can stay with existing coverage, then who will pay for all of the currently uninsured without raising premiums or increasing taxes? If the answer depends on "cost cutting" then who under the existing cost structure that is getting paid will lose his/her job and why should that happen? Furthermore, given that the government will run a competitive plan, won't those working for that government plan displace workers on the private side? Will the government workers be getting paid less, or be more productive? If so, can you point to a department of the US government that is sustainably more cost efficient than private industry?

612 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:23:45pm

re: #523 ArmyWife

I am the HR Director for my company. We have a computerized random generator, and because I have 6 unions that I deal with, went a step further to have a neutral third party certify the program as, in fact, random. Because it is random, a person has the chance of being called once, twice, 10 times during the course of the year just as people have won the lottery on multiple occasions. I had one guy called 3 times in a row - I asked him to buy me a lottery ticket.

I know how it's supposed to work. I'm pretty sure there are instances of

manual intervention

I've never been retested in 10 yrs. The Plant Mgr. has been tested 4 times. Do you use hair/urine or both?


I can't speak to the program your company uses, I can only speak for mine. If you are in HR, though, you ought to know how it works I'd think.

613 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:24:16pm

re: #610 jorline

I want to hear the Indian accent on different Vietnamese and Korean dialects.

My wife teaches Spanish for Berlitz. Could be serious money to be made soon.

It could be some thing like;"Welcome to 7-11,please have a Slushy while you wait for the doctor to see you."

614 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:25:09pm

re: #606 Sharmuta

And that's all fine and good that you and others are happy with sobriety. The rest of use intoxicants on a range of levels. Some can handle the responsibility, and some can't. My problem is that when some decided no one can handle the responsibility- you punish the responsible and the irresponsible alike. I don't find that to be fair, nor does it mean I don't want consequences for the irresponsible.

You're right, and I know it. I admit to not be fully rational when it comes to intoxicants; My own view are towards near-complete abstention. My reasons are my own, and and my convictions intended for no one but me. That's the reason I tend to stay away from this issue. I hope that answer is acceptable to you. I'm not a prohibitionist, because I know that such policies don't work.

615 Gella  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:25:15pm

i am against this idea, one of the simple selfish reasons is, i might loose my job because of this reform, we'll go more into debt, children of our children will still be paying for this, health care quality will go down, etc..

616 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:25:36pm

From CA here. Don't drink or use. Don't care if others do as long as they do so responsibly. Med. Marijuana is a great thing for people who really need it.

Doctors who prescribe pot or other prescription drugs systematically and without good cause are immoral IMO. I also think both pot and prescription drugs are over-prescribed and are consumed often (though let me be clear, certainly not exclusively) for recreational reasons. I don't like the idea of paying for mis-prescribed dope of any kind with my tax money. I hate it in fact.

Then again I wouldn't mind if it pot was legalized and it was regulated and generated revenue.

617 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:25:40pm

re: #557 zombie

Overall, a society-wide waste of human potential, if enough people spend their days getting high rather than being creative or productive.

Look to Russia to see a nation whose potential is wasted due to rampant alcoholism.

Look to Yemen to see a nation whose potential is wasted due to rampant qat abuse.

Do we want to join that club?

Yes we can, dude!

/

618 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:25:41pm

re: #612 BignJames

We do urine, but will do a blood back up if requested. If it's for alcohol, its a breathalyzer with blood back up as a request as urine testing for alcohol isn't very accurate.

619 jorline  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:26:09pm

re: #613 n in wi

It could be some thing like;"Welcome to 7-11,please have a Slushy while you wait for the doctor to see you."

lmao...now channel Big Joe Biden and repeat that line three times.

620 JohnnyCache  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:26:47pm

Can I ask two questions?

1) Mr. President, two (among others) characteristics that you say this new health care scheme exhibit: it will not add to the budget deficit and Medicare benefits for seniors will not be reduced. How can this be? We already know that because of aging "boomers," Medicare costs will, on their own, rise substantially over the next decade; your plan to add millions of other beneficiaries to government subsidies will add further. Isn't it true that the only way to reduce total cost is to reduce the level of service to some cohort and that seniors consume the majority of care. If your plan would not reduce services to seniors, from what other source would the savings come?

2) [Assuming some "folderol" answer to the above] Mr. President, you sound so confident as you explain how this scheme WILL work. Isn't it true that you have not submitted a bill to Congress for their consideration and that there are at least five bills in various stages of development. How can you be so sure that the final law, as presented to you for your signature and as run by the bureaucracy will work out as perfectly as you have describe? Is it your experience with the Fannie/Freddie, TARP, Stimulus, or the US Postal Service that informs you?

621 albusteve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:27:02pm

re: #605 formercorpsman

No you don't, I laced your joint...

heh...don't be spoofin me...I gotta shut down here

622 arf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:27:24pm

What does marijuana have to do with healthcare payment reform? Heck, legalize it as far as I'm concerned, but what does it have to do with health benefits reform?

623 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:28:15pm

re: #621 albusteve

Good luck Steve, I gotta split as well.

I need to attach a drive shaft in my Jeep.

624 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:28:30pm

re: #618 ArmyWife

We do urine, but will do a blood back up if requested. If it's for alcohol, its a breathalyzer with blood back up as a request as urine testing for alcohol isn't very accurate.


We take hair samples...by far the biggest complaint is the nurse's propensity for taking too much hair.

625 Gella  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:28:48pm

re: #622 arf

What does marijuana have to do with healthcare payment reform? Heck, legalize it as far as I'm concerned, but what does it have to do with health benefits reform?

just tax it

626 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:29:26pm

re: #624 BignJames

oopsie!

627 jorline  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:30:38pm

re: #622 arf

What does marijuana have to do with healthcare payment reform? Heck, legalize it as far as I'm concerned, but what does it have to do with health benefits reform?

Simple answer...arthritis patients will need to have someone roll their joints.
//

628 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:31:13pm

re: #614 Dark_Falcon

Your answer is great. I support private means to convince people of the benefits of sobriety, just not government power. Nothing wrong with anyone's opinion, just what means they would use in addressing the issue.

629 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:31:26pm

re: #626 ArmyWife

oopsie!


And she does take too much...especially if you don't have much to spare.

630 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:31:41pm
Youtube Video
631 BignJames  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:32:20pm

re: #627 jorline

Simple answer...arthritis patients will need to have someone roll their joints.
//


Mmmm...you could get a machine.

632 n in wi  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:33:29pm

re: #624 BignJames

We take hair samples...by far the biggest complaint is the nurse's propensity for taking too much hair.

Under Obamacare those nurses will be reassigned to assist in vasectomy surgeries.

633 sidtara  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:34:33pm

My question is: How long will I be waiting in line to get my money back when the goverment "accidentally" empties my bank account?

634 Gella  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:35:29pm

re: #631 BignJames

Mmmm...you could get a machine.

covered by zero reform
///

635 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:38:27pm

I'm late to the party, but here's my question anyway. I'd posted this early on in the original thread as well.

Rather than creating a government bureaucracy to control our health care, wouldn't it be better and cheaper to just have government pay to enroll individuals into the private insurance option of their choice?

I'm not convinced that it is governments role to pay for anyone's health care, but if it's going to be done, at least we could do it in the most sensible and least tyrannical way possible.

If government just pays the enrollment fee to buy your health insurance, they do not control your health care - you do. Any program where government makes any decision about your care will not be in your best interest. Ever.

636 Capitalistincharge  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:38:48pm

re: #593 formercorpsman

I remember sitting in the theatre, in our small town, having the best time watching Cheech & Chong on screen. With an enormous audience, most of them high, laughing so much it sounded like the happiest place on earth. And, hurrying to Big Boy afterwards to beat the crowd.(here)

637 jorline  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:40:47pm

re: #631 BignJames

Mmmm...you could get a machine.

Ahhh, but nothing beats a premium hand rolled joint!

638 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:43:30pm

re: #633 sidtara

My question is: How long will I be waiting in line to get my money back when the goverment "accidentally" empties my bank account?

You didn't get the memo?

It's actually the government's money.

639 RajaBabu  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:48:51pm

President Obama-concerning health care insurance etc;
you have a Democratic majority in Congress -why are you attacking the Republicans on this issue?
Shouldn't your party just pass a bill that satisfies your idea of fairness,
and then you sign it. End of story. Didn't you say "We won,
you lost..." to paraphrase a comment you made to Republicans?

640 quickjustice  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:51:59pm

Exactly how do you propose to pay for the current $38 trillion unfunded deficit in the Medicare program?

If you increase the population of insured people by many millions without increasing the supply of doctors and nurses, how can there NOT be instant doctor shortages? Would you remedy that the way the Chinese do-- by making the health care "provider" of first resort a paramedic or doctor's assistant, rather than an actual physician?

In the case of pregnant women, would you substitute midwives for doctors in most cases?

641 outsidephilly  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 6:58:07pm

Will the Public Welfare system be reformed, also?

642 victor_yugo  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:19:38pm

re: #5 Kosh's Shadow

To Obama, and any congressman and senator who wants to vote for the plan:
Would you commit yourself and your family to use the same health care system as you want to put in place for the rest of us?

Ditto. Likewise the Cabinet members and their families.

643 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:20:56pm

What kind of campaign finance reform would be necessary to unbind our representatives from the medical insurance industry if a single payer option is completely off the table?

644 victor_yugo  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:22:00pm

re: #592 Dustoff-507

I can tell you this. Just like drunks. Neither can drive...

Sure they can. For a few feet, anyway.

645 el_raton  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:39:52pm

Considering all of the cost savings that a national plan is alleged to generate, why can't the government simply start a health insurance company?

This is what most--if not all--states have done for workers' compensation insurance. These "state funds" are entirely self-funded and not paid for by tax dollars. They fill the gap between the market and market failure without adding another layer of government failure. They compete with private insurers on the same basis.

As George Soros says, "while markets are imperfect, regulators are more so."

646 Pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:42:06pm

Does anybody know if AARP is now officially endorsing the bill, as Obama suggested in the town hall today?

647 outsidephilly  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:49:16pm

Does Aetna, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, other private insurance companies, take umbrage with the government taking business away from them?

648 Macker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:58:13pm

Dang! There's got to be millions of updings I'll be handing out tonight!

649 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 8:01:50pm

Why does the government need to be in the health care business?

RASMUSSEN: 32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose.

And most are smart enough to realize that ObamaCare is designed to lead to that.

Why ? We don't want it.

Why is it that only unions want it? oh yeah - they won't have to pay for it!

650 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 8:07:44pm

re: #646 Pianobuff

Does anybody know if AARP is now officially endorsing the bill, as Obama suggested in the town hall today?

I just saw this one here:

AARP tells Obama: No health plan endorsement yet

But Tom Nelson, AARP's chief operating officer, said, "Indications that we have endorsed any of the major health care reform bills currently under consideration in Congress are inaccurate."

651 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 9:09:01pm

re: #594 albusteve

kids have parents...it starts there...you can't malign some weed because parents won't control their children...children should not be smoking weed, obviously

And the best way to make sure that happens is to legalize it and make it commonplace and socially acceptable.

...

/

652 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 9:10:31pm

re: #597 albusteve

too bad, you might have learned something

A lifetime of observation, experience and study have taught me a great deal about this issue already.

653 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 9:17:55pm

re: #622 arf

What does marijuana have to do with healthcare payment reform? Heck, legalize it as far as I'm concerned, but what does it have to do with health benefits reform?

See comment #199 above. This is what started the discussion:

---

An issue I haven't seen addressed is this:

California and several other states now have "medical marijuana" laws, under which people can get a prescription from a doctor to get legal marijuana from state-certified marijuana dispensaries.

Under some (most, possibly) existing private health care plans, this type of prescription is just as allowable as any other.

Under your plan, will people be able to get free marijuana, if their doctor prescribes it in a medical marijuana state? And if not, on what rational basis will you exclude some prescribed drugs but not others?

Just want to pin down exactly how much free pot we can all get out of the government.

(And considering that the majority of people getting legal pot at these places are getting precriptions for entirely self-reported conditions which anybody can claim [insomnia, lack of appetite, generalized pain, achiness, depression, etc.], it's quite obvious to most folks that the legal pot-users are basically just potheads with a prescription in hand. Thus, under Obama's plan, it's free pot for whoever wants it!)

654 eric  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 9:27:13pm

Where in the Constitution does it say that health care is something the government should provide for the people? And don't state the General welfare clause because that was not the original intent.

655 UncleRancher  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 9:49:35pm

The fundamental problem with the whole system is having someone else pay your bills for you. Now all the discussions boil down to how much can I get from the system for My Self. It has gotten to the point where everyone believes they have some kind of fundamental right to have someone else pay the medical bills. Here's my solution. I predict this system will not be fixed until we do the following:

1. Eliminate medical insurance of all kinds for everyone.
2. Set up a medical savings account like a 401(k), only make it a 401(m) where you can put deductions from your paycheck in to your OWN account that is your property. Require each account be funded up to the price of the most expensive medical procedure before any funds can be tapped for college expenses or other emergency uses.
3. Eliminate all forms of medical malpractice suits. Replace it with a 2-strikes and you're out physician's review board with the power to revoke a doctor's license to practice if they cause irreversable damage to a patient twice in a 5-year period.
4. Require all medical procedure charges to be reduced by the savings reflected in 1, 2, and 3 above.
5. Require that each doctor perform 10% of his activities as pro-bono for taking care of those who cannot pay their medical bills.
6. Require all government workers, including those elected, appointed and hired to be on the same system as all the rest of us for medical and retirement aspects of their jobs.

656 gnargtharst  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 9:53:30pm

20 Questions For Your Congressman

[Link: www.intellectualactivist.com...]

657 ladycatnip  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:08:18pm

Totally late to this thread, but I'd ask him if he and his family, members of his cabinet, Congress, federal employee and labor unions will all voluntarily take part in this system instead of the premium health care they are all using now.

If it's so good for our country it should be good enough for those who run it.

658 kahn_mann  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:35pm

Mr. President, exactly how are insurance companies supposed to stay in business to provide affordable health insurance if they have to cover pre-existing conditions?
And how am I supposed to keep my coverage if I am going to lose it if any details change?
Also, since the public option won't have to actually make money, and will be able to offer coverage at a massive loss, how are the private companies suppose to compete? I'm pretty sure my employer will drop our policies in a heartbeat if they know they can save a buck and still have the employees covered somehow...

659 tim2tahoe  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:02:17am

Extremely late to the party...
Mr. President, when are you going to demand tort reform as well as the ability to shop for health insurance nationally as one can for life or car insurance?

Bet his lawyer friends and insurance company backers would be interested in his answer!

660 idioma  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:33:21am

re: #372 n in wi

A follow up.
Since you want to destroy the best health care in the world,and you are fond of apologizing,will you tell the rest of the world your sorry for the disappearance of new drugs and medical universities?

For the record, I think Obama has made it clear that he is in favor of science and technology much more than the previous administration.

[Link: abclocal.go.com...]

His renewal of support for stem cell research is the most immediate example, but I would not doubt that there are more.

661 idioma  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:10:48am

re: #654 eric

Where in the Constitution does it say that health care is something the government should provide for the people? And don't state the General welfare clause because that was not the original intent.

The Constitution doesn't mention providing health care for the people. Public services also not mentioned in the Constitution include: Police, Fire Fighting, Scientific research, Space exploration, Vaccines, transportation, or even clean drinking water.

The Constitution is a document which specifically RESTRICTS the government from doing things to its citizens. It restricts them for throwing people in jail without cause, or putting you on trail for the same crime until you're found guilty. It restricts the government from enslaving citizens and taking their property.

If you want to use the constitution as an argument piece you'd better take a really good look at it first, because it really is an amazing document, but it's one that works with in negatives, the first words of the First Amendment are "Congress shall make no law..." and the Second Amendment ends with "...shall not be infringed."

662 moriarity  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:36:46am

re: #657 ladycatnip

None of these people would ever even consider opting for their own plan over the "sweetheart" deal they presently have. Theoretically of course, they should jump right in and lead the way. When the question is posed to them directly, they always tap dance (usually to the tune of "I've got rhythm").

663 idioma  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 3:42:29am

re: #653 zombie

See comment #199 above. This is what started the discussion:

---

An issue I haven't seen addressed is this:

California and several other states now have "medical marijuana" laws, under which people can get a prescription from a doctor to get legal marijuana from state-certified marijuana dispensaries.

Under some (most, possibly) existing private health care plans, this type of prescription is just as allowable as any other.

Under your plan, will people be able to get free marijuana, if their doctor prescribes it in a medical marijuana state? And if not, on what rational basis will you exclude some prescribed drugs but not others?

Just want to pin down exactly how much free pot we can all get out of the government.

(And considering that the majority of people getting legal pot at these places are getting precriptions for entirely self-reported conditions which anybody can claim [insomnia, lack of appetite, generalized pain, achiness, depression, etc.], it's quite obvious to most folks that the legal pot-users are basically just potheads with a prescription in hand. Thus, under Obama's plan, it's free pot for whoever wants it!)

This particular aspect of national health care clearly is an issue which requires serious evaluation, but I disagree with your assertion that "it's quite obvious to most folks that the legal pot-users are basically just potheads with a prescription in hand." My mother has multiple sclerosis. It is an auto-immune disease where the immune system attacks a person's central nervous system. It is a painful, and sometimes deadly disease for which there is no cure. The pain medications she has gone through were all problematic for different reasons, and often resulted in her spending all day in bed. Medical Marijuana allows her to function far more than any barbiturate.

Sadly, she built up a tolerance too quickly, and can no longer use higher dosages because of other medical issues. I know that there are people abusing a legal loophole, but it's still a little excessive to label ALL legal pot users as potheads with a prescription. There are some really sick folks out there that really do benefit.

664 Sacred Plants  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 3:50:38am

Do you attempt to bring a vaccine I am not convinced of into my bloodstream?

665 marsl  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 5:06:08am

re: #68 Racer X

Do you believe health care is a right?

Yes, it is. A developed society provides health care to his citizens.
Ah, and freedom is a right too.

So, Cuba is not an example.

666 RDOwens  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 5:30:47am

My question is one that has come up a few times in this thread, namely:

"Mr. President, here is a copy of the United States Constitution. Nowhere in it do I find healthcare delegated to the federal government. The Tenth Amendment clearly states those issues not specifically delegated to the federal government are left to the states and the people.

With that, sir, why are you expending time and tax dollars at the federal level on an issue outside of its purview?"

To respond to #661, who stated:

The Constitution doesn't mention providing health care for the people. Public services also not mentioned in the Constitution include: Police, Fire Fighting, Scientific research, Space exploration, Vaccines, transportation, or even clean drinking water.

Perhaps those are not roles for the federal government either.

667 eric  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 5:36:04am

This is to get the number of comments off 666

668 Tatterdemalian  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 5:41:57am

I'd probably ask, "Do you consider people who want to be able to pay more money for better health care than other people receive merely stupid, or outright criminal?"

Yes, it's an unfair question, but every left-of-center acquaintance of mine has unhesitatingly responded, "They're criminals, of course." Seeing nothing at all wrong with demonizing anyone who wants to be able to spend the money they've earned to ensure a greater chance of survival is how the anti-kulak pogroms get started.

669 Land Shark  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 6:53:39am

Since I believe that Obama has done nothing but lie on this issue, and seriously misrepresented his stands and what he wants out of it, my questions to him would be to ask him why he feels he has to lie so much to the American people about it. Why hide is true agenda. He has tried to stampede the nation into this overhaul without allowing us to take our time to study and without clearly explaining what's in the bill. Hell, he seems to not even know what's in the bill! Nothing but platitudes and fear mongering of the highest level.

I do not believe the radical overhaul he and the Dems are proposing are necessary. Yes, we need to find away to help the poor get better access to health care and some tinkering here and there, but we do have one of the best health care systems in the world already so to chuck the system we have now seems ludicrous.

I'm sorry that my question would be so snarky, essentially calling the President a liar, but that's the point I'm at.

670 ExCamelJockey  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 7:19:55am

My question would be:

In 2005, Pres Bush proposed a "private option" for Social Security. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and 42 Democrat Senators signed a statement stating that "We will not negotiate with you until you take privatization off the table".

If the Democrat party categorically refuses to allow citizens a private option for investing their own Social Security money, how can they be trusted to allow us to keep a private option on any health care proposal they may put forth?

671 buster  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 7:26:40am

Mr President,

You say you want competition and cost cutting to reduce the cost of medical car. Why do you refuse to consider the following market based solutions:

1. Tort reform. 30% of medical costs are related to "defensive medicine" with no purpose but o protect doctor from law suites. A looser pays system would go along way toward reducing cost by reducing nuisance lawsuits.

2. Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines, to encourage all 1300 insurance companies in the US to compete for customers.

3. Allow consumers to choose coverage that fits their lifestyle (it makes no sense for a single man to have to pay for neonatal care).

4. Re-introduce the concept of insurance coverage for unexpected expense and not for normal maintenance. As with your car, you pay for your (and your family's') normal appointments and routine care, with insurance to cover only unexpected costs.

5. Legislation to standardize medical forms and insurance forms.

These are only a small example of ideas that have been proposed to address problems with our existing system, and put the consumers of health care back in charge of cost control.

Why do you refuse to consider them, and instead propose a costly "Public Option"?

672 Spartacus50  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 7:50:08am

Any question posed to the prez is irrelevant. Any answer is simply 61 Democratic senators.

673 kevrobin45  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 9:23:01am

Samantha from Bewitched wiggling her nose...

Healthcare is fixed now!

674 gnargtharst  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 9:38:51am

re: #665 marsl

"Yes, it is [i.e., health care is a right]. A developed society provides health care to his citizens."

If health care is a right, then those who provide health care, lest they "deprive" citizens of their "rightful" health care, are obliged to provide, by law. I.e., doctors have no choice.

If goods or services are "rights", then thsoe who provide those goods or services are slaves, instead of traders.

"Ah, and freedom is a right too... So, Cuba is not an example."

Cuba is a perfect example of the notion that "health care is a right".

675 arf  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 9:48:13am

There are “medical” marijuana laws in multiple states. I practice medicine in one.

The evidence supporting marijuana for most any medical use, is microscopic and mostly dated.

You can go to ebay or the usual antique shopping sites, and find old certificates authorizing pharmacies to dispense “medicinal” alcohol. The reason for the charade of calling alcohol “medicinal” was, of course, Prohibition.

Legalize marijuana tomorrow, and the “medical” dispensaries will disappear. Research will proceed, correctly, with individual cannabinoids in the soup of chemicals that’s marijuana smoke. But no one will go around saying that there is a medical benefit of smoking marijuana.

The marijuana clinics are charades, and the doctors staffing them are ideologues who left their brain at the door. They go through the charade of records requests. Had one call me for records. I sent them, with a note that marijuana is contraindicated in the particular patient. I thought multiple psychiatric admissions for schizophrenia would be a reasonable contraindication. The doctor approved the marijuana card anyway, and I had to deal with a schizophrenic told he’s allowed to smoke marijuana, it would make him feel better.

One in a neighboring state, after years, got his license revoked. He was responsible for more than half the state’s marijuana authorizations. Most of the patients, he’d never seen. You call the clown, give him any cock and bull story, and several hundred dollars, and you get a marijuana card.

Bad medicine is bad medicine, whether it’s blood pressure medicine or marijuana.

Lest anyone else point it out, for the record, as far as I’m concerned as an American citizen, I say legalize it. Marijuana will be as much of a problem as beer……..fully recognizing that beer causes plenty of trouble in the world. But as an American citizen with a medical degree, don’t insult my intelligence by claiming there is much medical benefit to the smoked drug. If marijuana did not make you high, we would not be having this conversation. It would just be a natural product with an interesting soup of chemicals, some of which may hold promise for appetite stimulants, suppressants, glaucoma medicine, etc.

676 Buster  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 10:06:23am

re: #665 marsl

Yes, it is. A developed society provides health care to his citizens.
Ah, and freedom is a right too.

So, Cuba is not an example.

It ain't a right, if it requires taking money from one citizen and giving it to another.

Look at rights recognized as inalienable in the Declaration of Independence, and enumerated in the Constitution. None of them requires the taking of what one person has earned and giving it to another.

Through charity the members of a developed society may choose to help others, and are free to do so. The Government is NOT authorized to do so.

677 RedHouseBlueState  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 10:10:55am

I have one, can the President of the Unites States tell me how he's going to essentially add 300 million people to Medicare/Medicaid programs and save money?

678 arf  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:13:06am

671 buster - well said.

Speaking of standardizing forms and all that, the last time there was thought of a standardized dataset, back when Bush father was President…….we ended up with HIPAA, all sorts of medical “privacy” laws that are mostly useless, while we never got the standardized datasets. Actually, we got around the nonstandardized datasets for billing by going with clearinghouses, they make order out of chaos, charge us about a quarter per claim, less than the cost of the stamp.

679 Lanzman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:17:45pm

Echoing what many have already said (which is what happens when you're late to a topic :( ) I'd ask:

Mr President, will Congress be required to accept this same health plan, or will they "exempt" themselves from it?

680 krypto  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 3:41:07pm

I'm amazed by all the comments about healthcare in Massachusetts, and how it has been devasted by the passage of its healthcare reform law. According to these claims, Massachusetts has government run health care, socialized medicine, disasterous waits for doctor's appointments as a result, terrible health care, etc.

The problem I have with those claims is that I live in Massachusetts, from before that law was enacted, and all that's being claimed is news to me and to everyone else in Massachusetts who I've asked about it.

Please get some real information by checking this link to the statistics, instead of rumors, and for that matter journalistic spin and sensationalism.

[Link: www.mass.gov...]

The only major effect on people's healthcare in Massachusetts has been that the fraction of uninsured people has dropped to about 2%, and before offering the talking point that therefore Massachusetts has FAILED!!! (UTTERLY FAILED!!!) to achieve its goal of "universal" health insurance coverage, take a look at the graph. The law has been in effect for only three years, and most people didn't even know about it at first. The largest drop in uninsured has been in the last year. That close to zero is pretty damned good, and the shape of the graph suggests it is going to get awfully close to zero in another year or so.

Just having almost everyone on health insurance, by requiring it and cleaning up insurance company practices that are an obstacle, was what I had understood to be the goal of the law when it was being passed - not socializing medicine, changing the state or the world, not "a single payer system," or any of the rest of it. And doing that is a good thing - it avoids personal disaster for a lot of people who get ill without insurance, and face catastrophe as a result, and removes obstacles for people who want to get insurance but end up being refused by insurance companies.

I've been asking everyone I know around here about their experience since I started hearing all the outrageously untrue claims from the Huckabee types about the disaster in my state, and no one I've asked has noticed any negative effect on their quality or availability of health care, or even any effect who insures them or how they are insured, contrary to the wild claims.

It is not socialized medicine or government run health insurance. Almost everyone has the same private insurance plans they had before the law went into effect, from companies like Blue Cross, Tufts Health Care, Fallon, and other private companies.

However, there is a government run - and really small but overly expensive - component. Along with the requirement to have insurance and some other minor cleanups of how private insurance works, there is a program called "Commonwealth Care" for people within range of poverty level who couldn't afford health insurance and yet couldn't get Medicaid. That is the part that was ill planned financially. Exemptions from the requirement to buy insurance, rather than free insurance, might have made more sense for that category.

But contrary to the impression anti-health reform sources try to give, the fraction of the population under that plan is only about 3%. Check the graphs in the statistics link on that point. In contrast, "Mass Health," which is Medicaid and not anything new, has a far larger enrollment (14%) than "Commonwealth Care."

And it's pretty hard to see how the new law gave Massachusetts "socialized medicine" or "government run health care" when the new program, "Commonwealth Care" is drawfed by the number of people already on Medicaid, not to mention the number of people on Medicare - and the fact that the overwhelming part of the population did not even have their private insurance change.

So, sorry, but the truth is that situation in Massachusetts has been wildly misrepresented in extreme ways.

681 elclynn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 8:28:11pm

If private insurers are put out of business by this health care plan, what is going to happen to the thousands of people who work for private health insurers? Have you thought of that consequence and how will you fix it?


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