Palin: Senior Citizens Will Be Pressured to Die

Politics • Views: 4,631

Probably because her first statement about “death panels” was such a resounding political success, Sarah Palin is doubling down on the euthanasia card in her latest post at Facebook: Sarah Palin Notes.

These consultations are authorized whenever a Medicare recipient’s health changes significantly or when they enter a nursing home, and they are part of a bill whose stated purpose is “to reduce the growth in health care spending.” [5] Is it any wonder that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care?

I think I need some more ibuprofen. I’m getting a distortion headache, with fear-mongering sinus infection.

UPDATE at 8/13/09 12:30:09 pm:

A great disaster has been averted; there will be no Euthanasia Death Panels in the United States. Whew. That was close.

Now the bill won’t provide any end of life counseling at all! Hooray! Victory! Oh… wait.

Jump to bottom

936 comments
1 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:42:39am

dumb dumb bimbo hack.

2 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:43:22am

Here we go again.

3 doppelganglander  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:44:08am

Some people do not know how to quit when they're behind.

4 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:44:11am

Isn't this already being done in the hospice industry? End of Life counseling can and should play a vital role in the practice of medicine.

5 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:44:15am

But Charles!!
She's still HOT ...When she keeps her mouth shut!
///

6 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:44:49am

I didn't realize the FEMA camps would offer end of life care. ///

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:46:22am

The consultations should include the next of kin for two reasons:

1. It would save time. When people go into a coma, the next of kind start making decisions. Those people should know what the wishes are.

2. Nobody will worry Grandma's getting pressured to sign things she doesn't want to.

8 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:46:27am

She quit as Governor for this?

9 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:46:36am

Palin hits bottom keeps digging. I am back on Lisa Murkowki's side on this now, she was right about Sarah, I was wrong.

10 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:46:51am

She's got help with that doubling down. A sydicated columnist from Santa Fe, who leans left, but has not before seemed to be a kook, wrote this in his Aug. 12th column:

...So about the only reason to support health care coverage for everyone is that I shouldn't be selfish and maybe having everyone covered will make this a better world. I read somewhere it is my patriotic duty to want healthcare for everyone.
If I'm going to be patriotic and unselfish, I at least want to see this proposed plan be as good as it can be. There have been some extremely scary claims made about what is going to happen to old people under the proposed plan.
I'm told President Barack Hussein Obama is going to send out death squads to decide whether I can live any longer. I find it impossible to believe any member of Congress would vote for that, much less a majority of both houses...
11 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:47:35am

Palindrome (n.) a pathological condition of moral turpitude that condones lying, obfuscation, and demagoguery up to and including emotionally misleading use of your own progeny to score specious political points. See nilapharas.

12 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:48:11am

Congressman who has repeatedly voted against legislation requiring ID to vote or be part of government programs is requiring ID to see him at a Town Hall meeting.

Rep. Green to require photo ID at town halls

Rep. Gene Green (D-Texas) has announced on his website that he will require attendees to show photo identification to get into his town halls to prove that they're his constituents. He said that he's doing so in response to a "coordinated effort to disrupt our town hall meetings."

13 abbyadams  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:48:22am

Perhaps she has a condition where she can't understand the word optional.

14 theheat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:48:23am

Palin also fails to warn seniors about the coming of robots engineered to steal their medicine.

15 theheat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #8 Creeping Eruption

Whatever this is, she certainly has more time to pursue it.

16 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:49:27am

OT - needless to say, some people protesting Obama'spolicies are really stupid:

[Link: www.wtop.com...]

17 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:49:35am

re: #13 abbyadams

Perhaps she has a condition where she can't understand the word optional.

Comprehension isn't everyone's forte.

18 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:49:45am

So what medicine is best for the "distortion headache, with fear-mongering sinus infection?"

I'm thinking something like Damn-it-all.

19 TheMatrix31  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:49:56am

She's not saying it in the right way, but yes, I am concerned about what would happen to those who are older if/when they get sick. Government has no role in any part of that. None.

20 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:49:57am

re: #10 wrenchwench

Satire detector broken today?

21 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:50:33am
22 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:50:35am

Finally! A first comment for me! ... which explains why I didn't waste time elaborating.

Palin strikes me as someone too dense to understand what's in the bill and to argue against the gist of the proposed measures on their economic merits, because she lacks competence in basic economic principles, and couldn't even be bothered to read the contents (not that I blame her on that point, given the excruciating length and the many competing drafts floating around Capitol Hill). So what does she do? Of course, she resorts to what she is best at:

Stirring the irrational passions of the so-con base. She welcomes gratuitous controversy with these asinine remarks, and I'll tell you why: I am tooth and nail against ObamaCare but favor the availability of euthanasia, and just like me, there is a considerable chunk of the electorate that opposes this bill out of economic and pragmatic considerations and couldn't care less about whether abortion is funded or euthenasia covered. She doesn't offer anything to us.

All she does is provide a red herring for derailing the subject at hand from one on the merits of socialized health-care versus market-based initiatives into one about euthanasia. How stupid is that? How unhelpful in that to opponents of ObamaCare?

23 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:50:36am
24 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:50:47am

So long before we all need to worry about facing The Sixty?

25 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:50:57am

re: #14 theheat

Palin also fails to warn seniors about the coming of robots engineered to steal their medicine.

Fortunately, there is insurance for that.

[Link: snltranscripts.jt.org...]

26 philip  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:51:05am

Is it just me or is Palin a moron?

As a progressive I pray she runs in 2012 so we can crush her and the rest of the creationist-led GOP.

27 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:51:06am

(Full disclosure, I haven't read the Bill.)
The crux of her argument seems to be this:

Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233 aren’t quite “purely voluntary,” as Rep. Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.) asserts. To me, “purely voluntary” means “not unless the patient requests one.” Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive -- money -- to do so.

I don't see that she quotes the relevant passage anywhere.
Does anyone here have concrete info on this?

28 American Sabra  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:51:36am

I think Sarah fantasizes a bit too much on this stuff.

Youtube Video
29 fire at night  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:51:38am

Oh Sarah, is there nothing you won't shoot yourself in the foot with?

30 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:51:51am

re: #21 buzzsawmonkey

You mean Dammitol™?

Ah yes, I forgot the correct spelling.

31 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:52:00am
32 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:52:12am

Lisa Murkowski:

"It does us no good to incite fear in people by saying that there's these end-of-life provisions, these death panels," Murkowski told a crowd of about 130 at the Dena'ina Civic and Convention Center.

"Quite honestly, I'm so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn't (in the bill). There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill."

Murkowski said the nation's health care system needs reform to control costs and improve access to care, but bad legislation will only make it worse. Last month, she voted against a health reform measure that emerged from the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.

"I'll be honest with you," Murkowski said. "There are things that are in this bill that are bad enough that we don't need to be making things up."

Murkowski said she's holding four town hall meetings on health care. An aide said the meetings start Thursday in Fairbanks, then will be Aug. 20 in Anchorage, Aug. 28 in Wasilla and Aug. 29 in Soldotna.

"I look forward to that input and if it's spirited, that's the way it is," Murkowski said.

33 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:52:19am

re: #10 wrenchwench

That's right! As soon as you turn 60, the Obama death squads are going to land on your roof in their black helicopters, rappel down the side of your building, kill you by withholding medical attention, then haul you off and throw you in a FEMA death camp. Then kill you again. Then brainwash you.

34 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:52:34am

What does this hyperbole accomplish?

Helping or hurting, Sarah, helping or hurting?

35 VioletTiger  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:52:55am

re: #22 medaura18586
You should have 'wasted your time' elaborating. I don't agree with her on this either, but calling her or any other woman a bimbo, is offensive.

36 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:52:58am

re: #20 Cato the Elder

Satire detector broken today?

Injured, maybe. Yes, he's using satire, but really, is there a need to exaggerate in this case? (Turning "death panel" into "death squad.")

37 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:53:41am

re: #33 Charles

That's right! As soon as you turn 60, the Obama death squads are going to land on your roof in their black helicopters, rappel down the side of your building, kill you by withholding medical attention, then haul you off and put in a FEMA death camp. Then kill you again. Then brainwash you.

OK, maybe exaggeration can be a good thing...

38 theheat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:53:51am

re: #25 Mad Al-Jaffee

Yes, but under Obama, companies that would normally offer a robot insurance plan can no longer do so.

Single-payer robot insurance. Socialized, really sucky robot insurance.

39 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:54:11am

I see a rise in the stock of Ice Floes R Us

All medical insurance deals with this type of stuff right now. It's a tough call. My Dad's cardiologist wants to perform a bypass on my father, but his other doctors are worried about him surviving such an operation. And, Medicare is also balking at it, asking for more input from the doctors. Obama's plan will have to deal with this stuff everyday too. I am asking this in all seriousness, will there be some kind of bureaucrat sitting in on these decisions if Obama's plan goes through similar to the Health panels that operate in the NHS in the UK or in the Canadian national plan?

40 mikeymom  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:54:24am

ohhh crap! i turn 60--tomorrow!! oh noes--i'm DOOMED!!!

41 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:54:37am

re: #35 VioletTiger

I'll call any woman, man, or beast whatever I feel they deserve to be called.

42 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:54:45am

re: #26 philip

As a progressive I pray she runs in 2012 so we can crush her and the rest of the creationist-led GOP.

She's killing her chances of winning the nomination should she try to run, imo. Reasonable fiscal/security republicans, who might have considered her, will be turned off by this hysteria.

43 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:54:59am

But, but it's Palin who is a Nazi! I saw it on Family Guy, so it must be true!

In the meantime, those evil Right-wing types should be ashamed of themselves for using nazi imagery to tar Those who Work for Justice (selah!).
/

44 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:55:01am

re: #33 Charles

That's right! As soon as you turn 60, the Obama death squads are going to land on your roof in their black helicopters, rappel down the side of your building, kill you by withholding medical attention, then haul you off and put in a FEMA death camp. Then kill you again. Then brainwash you.

FEMA's involved with the death camps? I would think that would make people live longer, they have trouble getting anything right.
/

45 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:55:15am
46 KingKenrod  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:56:05am

I posted this in the overnight thread:
Mickey Kaus, writing for notorius right-wing hate site Slate.com, points out that Obama kinda sorta maybe endorsed the idea of a kinda sorta maybe non-binding panel that kinda sorta maybe might be construed as a death panel. By some people.


[Link: www.slate.com...]


I think the purpose of these panels is not to make death decisions, but to make the hard decisions politicians don't want to be blamed for. Where these groups go in the future is anybody's guess.

47 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:56:20am

re: #14 theheat

Palin also fails to warn seniors about the coming of robots engineered to steal their medicine.

WORD!

48 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:56:24am

re: #45 buzzsawmonkey

You can always order the generic.

Or get some Fuckital

49 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:56:51am

Perhaps Palin would have more traction if she framed things this way:

Whenever you have nationalized health care, there is inevitably a slide toward scarcity of medical treatment. This has been documented in Canada and Great Britain, where doctors have emigrated en masse, more people flock in to get the free health care, and the end result is very long waiting times and sometiems unavailability of some forms of care.

In a situation like that, where more people request or require care than can be promptly helped, some sort of triage must take place. Certain patients and certain treatments necessarily must be given priority over others -- just as in a battlefield hospital.

Who is going to make those decsions? What will the effects be? One could reasonably argue that some people will inevitably medically suffer (and perhaps even die) because their treatment was deferred due to the triage process. All as a result of the doctor shortage likely to loom under rnationalized health care.

50 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:56:51am

Well, I know that my current insurance carrier (Aetna) will raise my premium after I reach my 60th birthday in December.

I can barely afford to pay their premium as it is.

51 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:56:58am

Let me be very very clear about this. I'm not saying Obama's death squads will haul you in front of a death panel. That's absurd. No one believes such a thing.

But they're coming for you. Be afraid.

52 KingKenrod  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:57:08am

re: #32 Thanos

Lisa Murkowski:

I'm not saying she's right or wrong, but Murkowski is a big government corrupt-o-crat in the Ted Stevens mold and she hates Palin. Just some context.

53 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:57:09am

re: #39 Desert Dog

I see a rise in the stock of Ice Floes R Us

All medical insurance deals with this type of stuff right now. It's a tough call. My Dad's cardiologist wants to perform a bypass on my father, but his other doctors are worried about him surviving such an operation. And, Medicare is also balking at it, asking for more input from the doctors. Obama's plan will have to deal with this stuff everyday too. I am asking this in all seriousness, will there be some kind of bureaucrat sitting in on these decisions if Obama's plan goes through similar to the Health panels that operate in the NHS in the UK or in the Canadian national plan?

Nothing in the bill calls for that. It just authorizes counseling and consults when faced with serious health issues like the one your dad is facing. The bill sets general guildlines that defer to state laws. I think it's still your choice and you should force it if the prognosis is reasonable. Be objective about the risks as you can friend, and you are in my thoughts.

54 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:57:23am

NIΨONANOMHMATAMHMONANOΨIN

55 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:57:30am

re: #40 mikeymom

ohhh crap! i turn 60--tomorrow!! oh noes--i'm DOOMED!!!

Happy Birthday, and maybe one or two more...

///

56 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:57:37am
Is it any wonder that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care?

The phrasing isn't all that inflammatory, and not that bad a question.

57 JamesW  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:57:39am

I personally love this whole health care fiasco. The Dems are getting a tenth of the hysteria and vituperation they gave to Bush and to Palin and they scream in agony as each hit scores.

No, there won't be official death panels. Just nameless clerks denying treatment as they count the days until their pensions vest.

58 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:57:46am

re: #42 Sharmuta

She's killing her chances of winning the nomination should she try to run, imo. Reasonable fiscal/security republicans, who might have considered her, will be turned off by this hysteria.

She should just cash in, write the book, make the speeches...get rich, enjoy private life...but, get the ideas that she can win the Presidency out of her head

59 Diamond Bullet  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:58:12am

I don't understand the whole hyperbolic "death camp" thing. To me, the more terrifying (and likely) result is an eleventy-zillion dollar "national" healthcare system staffed by incompetent foreign doctors. If we're really lucky, some will even try to blow up our airports:

All eight people arrested in the aftermath of two bungled car bombings here last week are from the medical profession, a British police official said Tuesday, rattling a national heath service that has long relied on foreign doctors to fill its understaffed hospitals.

But look on the bright side: maybe Palin will kill off Facebook.

60 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:58:15am

They may not be pressured to die, but they may feel pressured to. Anybody who has parents that are very elderly (my mom is almost 90) will know what I'm talking about.

61 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:58:25am

re: #45 buzzsawmonkey

You can always order the generic.

I took a generic for Vicodin this morning, that might have affected my judgment earlier, but you know what? I don't really care that much about it.

62 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:58:30am

re: #52 KingKenrod

I'm not saying she's right or wrong, but Murkowski is a big government corrupt-o-crat in the Ted Stevens mold and she hates Palin. Just some context.

I know more about the Lisa-Sarah differences than you do, I'm from Alaska. Lisa is not big government, she couldn't get elected in Alaska if she were.

63 FQ Kafir  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:58:36am

Medicare will pay for, not mandate this counseling (/death panel).

This battle, for now, is above Palin's pay grade.

64 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:58:52am

re: #33 Charles

That's right! As soon as you turn 60, the Obama death squads are going to land on your roof in their black helicopters, rappel down the side of your building, kill you by withholding medical attention, then haul you off and throw you in a FEMA death camp. Then kill you again. Then brainwash you.

The same evil tactic the Halliburton commandoes used to round up Those Who Work for Peace after Bushitler repealed habeus corpus by opening the Guantanamo death camp?

65 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:58:54am

re: #51 Charles

Let me be very very clear about this. I'm not saying Obama's death squads will haul you in front of a death panel. That's absurd. No one believes such a thing.

But they're coming for you. Be afraid.

You forgot to exploit a loved one and cry.

66 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:58:56am

Meanwhile, back in the real world, where there are real death squads: IDF investigating reports soldier kidnapped near Ben Gurion

67 JustABill  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:59:40am

re: #14 theheat

Palin also fails to warn seniors about the coming of robots engineered to steal their medicine.

Actually, I hear they are going to replace the death panels with two robots. They will protect you from the terrible secret of Obamacare. Please stand by the stairs...

68 SurferDoc  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:59:40am

re: #57 JamesW

I personally love this whole health care fiasco. The Dems are getting a tenth of the hysteria and vituperation they gave to Bush and to Palin and they scream in agony as each hit scores.

No, there won't be official death panels. Just nameless clerks denying treatment as they count the days until their pensions vest.

Amen and an upding!

Payback, it's what's for dinner.

69 philip  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:59:45am

re: #42 Sharmuta

She's killing her chances of winning the nomination should she try to run, imo. Reasonable fiscal/security republicans, who might have considered her, will be turned off by this hysteria.

Good point. Reasonable, moderate Republicans weren't turned off by her in 2008 though. Though arguably she hadn't committed as many blunders than as she has now (the ones post-election have been all her own doing).

However, what are the demographics like during the primaries? I would think the rabid base would come out to vote. It's my understanding that the base is fired up by this kind of rhetoric. I hope they turn out to vote for her so the GOP will finally realize it has a real problem on its hands.

70 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:59:57am

dumb dumb bimbo hack
over the edge and can't come back
former fans now think she's wack
dumb dumb bimbo hack

71 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:00:00am

We're not going to have Dr. Benway's Oldies but Goldies City, with people dropping like flies at the "Psycho raga rock old folks' dance marathon"?
Firesign Theatre was wrong?
///

72 TheMatrix31  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:00:26am

re: #49 zombie

Exaaactly.

73 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:00:39am
74 turn  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:00:42am

She didn't say senior citizens would be pressured to die, I think that's stretching it a bit. Hey Charles, thanks for that link to the "How Can Galaxies Move Away Faster Than Speed of Light". It still doesn't make sense to me. As soon as the galaxy and surrounding space reached the speed of light no photons would be able to reach an observer on earth. The galaxy would simply disappear when it reached the speed of light so it seems we would not be able to observe it exceeding the speed of light. Oh well I guess it really doesn't matter, I won't be around in 3 trillion years to see what happens anyway.

75 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:00:56am

re: #57 JamesW

No, there won't be official death panels. Just nameless clerks denying treatment as they count the days until their pensions vest.

re: #59 Diamond Bullet

I don't understand the whole hyperbolic "death camp" thing. To me, the more terrifying (and likely) result is an eleventy-zillion dollar "national" healthcare system staffed by incompetent foreign doctors. If we're really lucky, some will even try to blow up our airports:

I agree. It won't be "death panels" per se, but:

bureaucratic decision-making
ill-trained foreign doctors
triage and deferred treatment

will when combined lead to a worse level of care and likely more avoidable fatalities.

76 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:01:24am

re: #66 Creeping Eruption

Meanwhile, back in the real world, where there are real death squads: IDF investigating reports soldier kidnapped near Ben Gurion

Begin shellings until he and Shalit are both returned.

77 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:01:27am

That's ridiculous. I never said Obama's death panels would be slaughtering large numbers of senior citizens, and anyone who says I did is trying to smear me and is probably a plant or a RINO.

< begin weeping ... >

78 leafsfan82  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:01:33am

I'm no Palin fan but being from Canada where we do have a wonderful socialized system, I can tell you she's right on that one.

79 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:02:08am

re: #75 zombie

I agree. It won't be "death panels" per se, but:

bureaucratic decision-making
ill-trained foreign doctors
triage and deferred treatment

will when combined lead to a worse level of care and likely more avoidable fatalities.

And somehow that won't happen under private plans as it does on occasion now?

80 SpaceJesus  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:02:12am

soylent green is republicans

81 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:02:12am

The batcave right is learning to use media tropes the same way the moonbat left has for years: hyperbole, paranoia, emotional exploitation, babies, old people, fluffy bunnies, death camps, nazis, etc.

What a disgusting spectacle this has become. I feel no sympathy for the tarred lefties though, they started this nazi imagery shit years ago and turned it into a standard pop-culture meme.

82 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:02:15am

re: #51 Charles

Let me be very very clear about this. I'm not saying Obama's death squads will haul you in front of a death panel. That's absurd. No one believes such a thing.

But they're coming for you. Be afraid.

I didn't know you could do impressions, Charles. Your Glenn Beck is spot on!

83 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:02:27am

re: #77 Charles

That's ridiculous. I never said Obama's death panels would be slaughtering large numbers of senior citizens, and anyone who says I did is trying to smear me and is probably a plant or a RINO.

< begin weeping ... >

Snap out of it!

/airplane!

84 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:02:30am
85 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:02:40am

re: #77 Charles

That's ridiculous. I never said Obama's death panels would be slaughtering large numbers of senior citizens, and anyone who says I did is trying to smear me and is probably a plant or a RINO.

< begin weeping ... >

Are you channeling Glen?

86 American Sabra  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:03:07am

re: #46 KingKenrod

I posted this in the overnight thread:
Mickey Kaus, writing for notorius right-wing hate site Slate.com, points out that Obama kinda sorta maybe endorsed the idea of a kinda sorta maybe non-binding panel that kinda sorta maybe might be construed as a death panel. By some people.

[Link: www.slate.com...]

I think the purpose of these panels is not to make death decisions, but to make the hard decisions politicians don't want to be blamed for. Where these groups go in the future is anybody's guess.

Actually what I read is that there are special Death Panels just for politicians and talk show hosts. It's equal opportunity euthanasia, so you can be from the Right or the Left and you don't have to wait until you're 65! All you need is a Facebook, Twitter and MySpace account and they're on their way.

87 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:03:14am

I guess a "civil health care discussion" does not include "honesty"

88 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:03:26am

re: #79 Thanos

And somehow that won't happen under private plans as it does on occasion now?

I believe that such incidents will almost certainly increase under a nationalized system for the reasons cited above: fewer doctors available, more people seeking treatment, more bureaucracy.

89 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:03:48am

re: #49 zombie

Perhaps Palin would have more traction if she framed things this way:

Whenever you have nationalized health care, there is inevitably a slide toward scarcity of medical treatment. This has been documented in Canada and Great Britain, where doctors have emigrated en masse, more people flock in to get the free health care, and the end result is very long waiting times and sometiems unavailability of some forms of care.

In a situation like that, where more people request or require care than can be promptly helped, some sort of triage must take place. Certain patients and certain treatments necessarily must be given priority over others -- just as in a battlefield hospital.

Who is going to make those decsions? What will the effects be? One could reasonably argue that some people will inevitably medically suffer (and perhaps even die) because their treatment was deferred due to the triage process. All as a result of the doctor shortage likely to loom under rnationalized health care.

If the government option morphs into a single-payer, or de facto single-payer system with private medical insurance marginalized to only the ones that can afford it (like the UK and Europe). There will be rationing done on many things most people consider routine. MRI tests, endoscopy, angioplasty, etc will be harder and harder to get. It is a simple matter of economics. Waiting lists and a reduction of service is one of the hallmarks of social medicine. "Death squads" or not, I am not in favor of a government take over of the medical insurance industry.

90 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:03:49am

Hysterical political theater works to grab focus only, most often it backfires more than it succeeds.

91 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:03:59am

Sarah Palin: The Jaws Of Death™

92 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:04:02am

re: #80 SpaceJesus

soylent green is republicans now available in zesty nacho cheese flavor!

FTFY.

93 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:04:05am
94 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:04:34am

re: #53 Thanos

Nothing in the bill calls for that. It just authorizes counseling and consults when faced with serious health issues like the one your dad is facing. The bill sets general guildlines that defer to state laws. I think it's still your choice and you should force it if the prognosis is reasonable. Be objective about the risks as you can friend, and you are in my thoughts.

I hope "medically necessary" still holds the same weight as it does now, that is all.

95 subsailor68  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:04:36am

re: #51 Charles

Let me be very very clear about this. I'm not saying Obama's death squads will haul you in front of a death panel. That's absurd. No one believes such a thing.

But they're coming for you. Be afraid.

Sure, you laugh, but I know for a fact that the squads are operating out of the Post Office here. How do I know? They came for me yesterday, but ended up taking the guy next door away by mistake. Seems fair, though - I've been getting his mail for years.

;-)

96 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:04:52am
97 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:04:56am

I would trust Sarah on the trust-O-meter against any member, I repeat, any member of this stinking administration. Although she seems kinda stupid in many cases I believe she is a true american and a breath of fresh air.

98 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:05:09am

re: #75 zombie

Will there be more preventable deaths under ObamaCare than under our status quo? You bet, but it won't be "death by committee." It will be by lower quality, scarcer, less specialized/more generic, delayed treatments and less innovation in the pharmaceutical industry. With self-defeating rhetoric like that, if the average American thought Palin was a serious spokesperson of the opposition to ObamaCare, they might end supporting it in droves just as a reaction to her craziness.

Say I didn't tell you so. Palin is wack and anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear could have told you so back in 2008.

99 jimbouie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:05:18am

re: #57 JamesW

No, there won't be official death panels. Just nameless clerks denying treatment as they count the days until their pensions vest.

Exactly.

100 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:05:39am

re: #97 apachegunner

I would trust Sarah on the trust-O-meter against any member, I repeat, any member of this stinking administration. Although she seems kinda stupid in many cases I believe she is a true american and a breath of fresh air.

Ah, yes, the "true American" argument...

101 FQ Kafir  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:06:09am

Thanos has the right link on this one.

[Link: www.google.com...]

102 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:06:55am

re: #69 philip

Good point. Reasonable, moderate Republicans weren't turned off by her in 2008 though. Though arguably she hadn't committed as many blunders than as she has now (the ones post-election have been all her own doing).

However, what are the demographics like during the primaries? I would think the rabid base would come out to vote. It's my understanding that the base is fired up by this kind of rhetoric. I hope they turn out to vote for her so the GOP will finally realize it has a real problem on its hands.

The fringe is more active on a grassroots level, true- but when it comes to presidential primaries and caucuses, more folks turn out than they do for more local politics.

And I supported Sarah in 2008, but as more time has gone by, I've come to see her in a different light. Thought I still find her personable and wish her and her family the best- she's lost my support.

103 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:07:11am

re: #90 Thanos

Hysterical political theater works to grab focus only, most often it backfires more than it succeeds.

Sometimes it works beyond the dreams of Avarice.

104 capt26thga  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:07:41am

Welll!!! Why don't y'all just kick the poor girl.
She could very well be the first female president. A lot of people like her.
From my understanding of this bill it is so full of twists and turns they (the fed) could and will do whatever they want. We have a perfectly fine constitution which they only use when its convenient.
I took a test on line which had been issued to members of congress also. At least so it said. I only have a high school education and quite a few years at Hard Knock University. I scored in the high 90s. According to the results page most all congress persons taking the test failed dismally.

105 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:08:51am

I was just going to predict #104. Dang.

106 doppelganglander  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:09:01am

My brother-in-law posted a comment on Facebook about how swell government health care will be, and how unfortunate it is that all its opponents are morons being manipulated by nefarious insurance companies and right-wing politicians. Of course, he's spent his career administering benefits for state employees. The funniest part, though, was his assertion that the government has been successfully running Medicare for 45 years. If that's his definition of successful, I cannot imagine what failure looks like.

107 Alaska Kim  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:09:27am

re: #70 Cato the Elder

dumb dumb bimbo hack

over the edge and can't come back

former fans now think she's wack

dumb dumb bimbo hack

We already get your point. Enough already, will ya?

108 SurferDoc  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:09:36am

I am 66 and I have already been sent home with a bag of pills to die once. I have resources and alternatives and I will get the surgery I need. I don't expect Obamacare to be any kinder, in fact any reading of Obamacare lessens my options and my chances for survival. I'm not going to through stones at Sarah Palin for being somewhat hyperbolic in pointing these things out.

109 FQ Kafir  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:09:39am

re: #104 capt26thga

She could very well be the first female president.

Not by using these sorts of tactics.

110 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:09:42am

re: #105 Charles

I was just going to predict #104. Dang.

I like Sarah, but I wish she'd tone down the rhetoric. Way down.

111 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:09:49am

re: #104 capt26thga

She could very well be the first female president. A lot of people like her.

That doesn't place her above criticism. Just like it doesn't work for the left when they say it about Obama.

112 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:10:12am

I did not want her on the '08 ticket. I wanted her to stay in Alaska. I thought she could do more good as the Gov. of Alaska than as the VPOTUS.

Now she's not doing anyone any good. Bummer.

113 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:10:15am

re: #100 Cato the Elder

Ah, yes, the "true American" argument...

nitwit (I do that only because your so good at the same thing)

114 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:10:49am

re: #111 Sharmuta

That doesn't place her above criticism. Just like it doesn't work for the left when they say it about Obama.

Does the Left admit he's the first female president? ;)

/

115 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:10:49am

re: #105 Charles

I was just going to predict #104. Dang.

Don't feel bad Charles, we all have a hard time keeping up with these threads, let alone getting ahead of them.

116 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:10:51am

re: #107 Alaska Kim

We already get your point. Enough already, will ya?

When she's (politically) dead with a (splintery political) stake through her heart, maybe.

117 GGMac  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:10:56am

re: #40 mikeymom

ohhh crap! i turn 60--tomorrow!! oh noes--i'm DOOMED!!!

Well, say - Happy Birthday to you, tomorrow!

And if you're doomed, don't fret - there will likely be a drinking thread/wake in your honor, so you can be assured of going out in style.

118 SpaceJesus  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:11:07am

re: #104 capt26thga


She could very well be the first female president.


lol

119 Alaska Kim  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:11:20am

re: #97 apachegunner

I would trust Sarah on the trust-O-meter against any member, I
repeat, any member of this stinking administration. Although she seems
kinda stupid in many cases I believe she is a true american and a
breath of fresh air.

Ditto.

120 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:11:22am

There is a very good reason to oppose a public option, and it isn't death squads or black helicopters or FEMA death camps.

It's because it will be just like every other big government entitlement plan from the Romans on down. Bloated, messy, inefficient and extremely expensive. That is reason enough.

121 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:11:24am

re: #114 medaura18586

Does the Left admit he's the first female president? ;)

/

The mom jeans are a dead giveaway.

122 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:11:37am

I knew for years that this batshit faction of the GOP base existed, but we had at least tried to keep a muzzle on it through the Bush years. For all her good qualities, Palin was an obvious attempt by the McCain campaign to pander to that element. They have been in full and growing cry ever since.

123 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:12:07am

re: #121 Ward Cleaver

The mom jeans are a dead giveaway.

Whatever he is, he can't be the first black president, now can he? That was Bill Clinton.

/

124 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:12:11am

re: #112 Slumbering Behemoth

I did not want her on the '08 ticket. I wanted her to stay in Alaska. I thought she could do more good as the Gov. of Alaska than as the VPOTUS.

Now she's not doing anyone any good. Bummer.

They rolled her out too soon. She was not ready for the VP slot and it showed. She may not ever be ready for the Presidency. With that said, Joe Biden is now the VP of the USA, so there is a very low bar to reach next time.

125 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:12:12am

If Sarah represents what's good about America, where do I sign up for Catonasia?

126 Alaska Kim  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:12:49am

re: #116 Cato the Elder

When she's (politically) dead with a (splintery political) stake through her heart, maybe.

Don't hold your breath.

127 mikeymom  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:12:54am

re: #117 GGMac

Well, say - Happy Birthday to you, tomorrow!

And if you're doomed, don't fret - there will likely be a drinking thread/wake in your honor, so you can be assured of going out in style.


thanks, i think. maybe i should get rip-roaring drunk and when i wake up sat. with the hangover from hell, i will welcome the death squad!!

128 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:13:34am

re: #126 Alaska Kim

Don't hold your breath.

I won't. My brain needs oxygen for satire.

129 theheat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:13:45am

re: #104 capt26thga

Polls show much fewer than before "like her". When left to her own devices, she's proving herself a very likable dimbulb, much like Paula Abdul 9was] on American Idol. Nonsensical, rambling, sometimes outrageous, not especially bright - but likable.

That isn't very presidential, if you ask me.

130 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:13:46am

re: #77 Charles

That's ridiculous. I never said Obama's death panels would be slaughtering large numbers of senior citizens, and anyone who says I did is trying to smear me and is probably a plant or a RINO.

< begin weeping ... >

Exactly,
If we kill off everyone at 60 there won't be any senior citizens to kill. Smart Charles!!
//

131 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:14:00am

re: #116 Cato the Elder

When she's (politically) dead with a (splintery political) stake through her heart, maybe.

Even so, ad hominem arguments and insults are kind of silly and unbecoming of us, don't you think, no matter what you may think of Sarah Palin? I have not been very fond of what she has done since the election, and if I knew then what I know now about her personality, I would've been less enthusiastic about her. However, that does not excuse insulting people.

132 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:14:05am

I hope that any senior citizen who voted for Оба́ма now regrets their vote.
Can anyone say "Communitarianism"

133 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:14:14am

re: #104 capt26thga

Welll!!! Why don't y'all just kick the poor girl.

I don't wanna.

She could very well be the first female president.

And monkeys could very well fly outta my butt.

A lot of people like her.

A lot of people like my grandma, that doesn't mean she's qualified to occupy the most powerful office in the world.

134 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:15:20am

Seriously now, the amazing thing about the "death panel" statement is that instead of being repudiated by right wing leadership, they're actually getting behind it! Both Gingrich and Steele have supported Palin.

When I first read that quote at her Facebook page, I thought, "No. She did not really write that."

It was so over the top wacky, I expected her to issue one of those non-apology apologies. Nobody could actually defend that, could they?

Boy, was I wrong.

135 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:15:28am

re: #130 rwdflynavy

And Charles has only 4 years left until he reaches that magic marker...right Charles?

136 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:15:33am

re: #128 Cato the Elder

I won't. My brain needs oxygen for satire.

that right, I forget sometimes how hard it is to read you Cato, I apoligize for those times I misinterpret your writing, sometimes it really isn't what it seems.

137 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:15:34am

I've stayed away from this subject until this thread because I can't see WTF the big deal is.

#1233 seems to be talking about what I (and my daughter, my heir) already have, from a decade ago -- a durable power of attorney, a durable power of attorney for health care, and a directive to physicians.

Sarah, I respect th' hell outta you, but was I wrong to get those in the first place? What's the big deal about them?

Am I missing something?!?!?!?!?!

/SHEESH!

138 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:15:46am

re: #114 medaura18586

LOL! I can only take so much intellectual dishonesty before lunch.

139 JustABill  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:16:04am

re: #132 Macker

I hope that any senior citizen who voted for Оба́ма now regrets their vote.
Can anyone say "Communitarianism"

Queue Mandy, cause, she needs more Karma...

140 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:16:24am

re: #104 capt26thga

Welll!!! Why don't y'all just kick the poor girl.
She could very well be the first female president. A lot of people like her.
From my understanding of this bill it is so full of twists and turns they (the fed) could and will do whatever they want. We have a perfectly fine constitution which they only use when its convenient.
I took a test on line which had been issued to members of congress also. At least so it said. I only have a high school education and quite a few years at Hard Knock University. I scored in the high 90s. According to the results page most all congress persons taking the test failed dismally.

There is no "Death Panel" in this bill.
We KNOW that the left is crazy and reckless. If we go nuts too, who is left?

141 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:16:41am
142 fizzlogic  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:17:14am

Good luck getting into a nursing home now without having a living will set up.

143 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:17:25am

re: #111 Sharmuta

That doesn't place her above criticism. Just like it doesn't work for the left when they say it about Obama.

That can't be said often enough!

144 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:17:42am

re: #125 Cato the Elder

Catonasia, huh? What's the local beer like? Never mind, what are the local women like?

145 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:18:05am

re: #134 Charles

What do you expect? Steele is incompetent and Gingrich is a corrupt hack peddling hysterics. He was at the NYC tea party a few months ago.

146 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:18:14am

re: #134 Charles

Seriously now, the amazing thing about the "death camp" statement is that instead of being repudiated by right wing leadership, they're actually getting behind it! Both Gingrich and Steele have supported Palin.

When I first read that quote at her Facebook page, I thought, "No. She did not really write that."

It was so over the top wacky, I expected her to issue one of those non-apology apologies. Nobody could actually defend that, could they?

Boy, was I wrong.


don't you think that there might just be something in the proposed bill(s) which might just initiate such a thought? Or is it you think that she just comes of the wall with such stuff?

147 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:18:28am

re: #144 Slumbering Behemoth

Catonasia, huh? What's the local beer like? Never mind, what are the local women like?

Roman girls had this way of making you disappear when provoked...

148 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:18:38am

re: #143 Dianna

What I believe is a working link is in your email -- the 2nd one, labeled "Re-send"

149 mikeymom  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:18:40am

re: #137 pre-Boomer Marine brat
yes, yes!! my 90 yr old frail mom in law has all those, and we just signed a paper at the asst living facility--NO CPR. if she ever needed it, if done properly, it would break a lot of ribs. she's only 105 lbs.

150 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:18:43am
151 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:18:58am

re: #147 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, but could they frak?

152 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:19:11am

re: #131 Honorary Yooper

Even so, ad hominem arguments and insults are kind of silly and unbecoming of us, don't you think, no matter what you may think of Sarah Palin? I have not been very fond of what she has done since the election, and if I knew then what I know now about her personality, I would've been less enthusiastic about her. However, that does not excuse insulting people.

Allow me to let our resident Commentary commenter comment:

re: #41 medaura18586

I'll call any woman, man, or beast whatever I feel they deserve to be called.

153 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:19:17am

re: #146 apachegunner

don't you think that there might just be something in the proposed bill(s) which might just initiate such a thought? Or is it you think that she just comes of the wall with such stuff?

It's blatant fear-mongering, and I'm quite sure she's aware of it, as are Steele and Gingrich.

154 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:19:18am

re: #148 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What I believe is a working link is in your email -- the 2nd one, labeled "Re-send"

Thanks. I'm off.

155 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:19:19am

re: #144 Slumbering Behemoth

Yes, but could they frak?

156 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:19:27am

Democrats on Escalator

Youtube Video
157 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:19:54am

re: #152 Cato the Elder

Now, now... I am only representing myself here.

158 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:19:55am

re: #145 medaura18586

What do you expect? Steele is incompetent and Gingrich is a corrupt hack peddling hysterics. He was at the NYC tea party a few months ago.


I think the intelligence of Gringrich probably intimidates you.

159 2senseplain  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:20:00am

re: #66 Creeping Eruption

Very real. Traffic remains snarled from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem and into the Modiin area as the IDF and border police try to find him. Just got a call from my son that his leave is cancelled "but we're not allowed to tell you why, Ima", like I don't hear the radio or see the internet. I'm torn between dread for this young man and somewhat shamed relief that I know where my son is.

160 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:20:01am

re: #149 mikeymom

yes, yes!! my 90 yr old frail mom in law has all those, and we just signed a paper at the asst living facility--NO CPR. if she ever needed it, if done properly, it would break a lot of ribs. she's only 105 lbs.

Am I correct that those are all 1233 is talking about?

161 Alaska Kim  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:20:11am

re: #153 Charles

It's blatant fear-mongering, and I'm quite sure she's aware of it, as are Steele and Gingrich.

"blatant fear mongering"? She's not like that.

162 JarHeadLifer  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:20:23am

re: #88 zombie

I believe that such incidents will almost certainly increase under a nationalized system for the reasons cited above: fewer doctors available, more people seeking treatment, more bureaucracy.

That's right. More bureaucracy and more permanent bureaucracy. Obama frequently makes the point that right now that there is an insurance company bureaucrat between you and your doctor. Obama wants to replace that insurance company bureaucrat with a BIG government bureaucrat.

Here's the part he skips (and Republicans aren't smart enough to call him on), you can always replace your insurance company and consequently replace that insurance bureaucrat. But, once the government steps into to that role, there's no getting rid of them. They are there for life - like the Post Office and like the IRS.

And, if you're having difficulty replacing or changing your insurance companies, then that's what needs to be addresses - not some government run, single-payor system which is the only outcome possible with the "public-option" still on the table.

163 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:20:55am

re: #158 apachegunner

I think the intelligence of Gringrich probably intimidates you.

Did you miss a sarc tag?

164 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:21:21am

re: #159 2senseplain

Very real. Traffic remains snarled from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem and into the Modiin area as the IDF and border police try to find him. Just got a call from my son that his leave is cancelled "but we're not allowed to tell you why, Ima", like I don't hear the radio or see the internet. I'm torn between dread for this young man and somewhat shamed relief that I know where my son is.

GLad to hear your son is safe. Prayers that this is all an over-reaction and the scum have not taken another.

165 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:21:35am

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

166 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:21:35am

re: #147 LudwigVanQuixote

Are you saying what I think you're saying?

/keep in mind, I'm a juvenile misogynist.
//

167 mikeymom  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:21:42am

re: #160 pre-Boomer Marine brat

i think so pBMb

168 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:22:10am

re: #153 Charles

It's blatant fear-mongering, and I'm quite sure she's aware of it, as are Steele and Gingrich.


maby sometimes its required.

169 Alaska Kim  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:22:22am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q:
Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and
Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable
third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential
election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

Sarah.

170 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:22:26am

re: #165 zombie

You forgot Ron Paul.

171 brent  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:22:30am

#27 hit on a good point - these consultations are called optional, but will doctors receive financially incentives to give them? Is this a case of "depends on what your definition of optional is"?

The robot talk is going to keep me up many nites - thanks.

172 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:22:35am

re: #165 zombie

Barack Obama -- with big chunks of puke in my mouth.

173 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:22:44am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

B

Anyone but A

174 chotii  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:22:56am

I have a friend whose son was injured so badly in a car wreck that he was on life support at Children's Hospital in Seattle. Soon it became obvious he was not going to survive. My friend was taken into a room in the hospital, asked to sit down at a table with a panel of doctors and nurses, and pressured for over an hour - alone against the tableful of "experts" - to donate his organs, because he could not survive and she was selfish if she didn't let them do what they wanted to do. She said one doctor actually shouted at her, demanding that she stop being so selfish.

She refused, as it is against her belief system. And she did not like being bullied in the name of "don't be selfish". Her son died, and was buried intact.

She saw a number of families similarly taken into that room. Almost all of them wound up donating their child's organs, after being subjected to that pressure.

If you folks believe that no doctor out there will ever start pressuring seniors to get out of the way, and die sooner...then you don't know about, or don't understand what's already going on in the name of 'not being selfish'.

How many doctors pressuring people will be 'okay', and not an indictment of the entire system?

175 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:22:58am

re: #157 medaura18586

Now, now... I am only representing myself here.

I was merely adopting your stance on "insults". The notion that in this country of all nations one must refrain from being impolite to politicians is astonishing.

176 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:03am

re: #170 Macker

You forgot Ron Paul.

Ron Paul!

/obligatory ron paul! post

177 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:11am

re: #170 Macker

You forgot Ron Paul.

A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate

178 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:16am

re: #165 zombie

You forgot:

e. RON PAUL!

179 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:18am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

Palin (all things considered, and UNLESS she goes way further over the edge)

/in the latter case, I'm screwed

180 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:26am

re: #165 zombie

Because it is likely to happen.

No- it's not.

181 FQ Kafir  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:32am

re: #163 medaura18586

Gingrich's intelligence is not really in question. He's a pretty smart cookie. Hyper-partisan, but with ample grey matter.

182 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:40am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

Your poll is flawed.

E) Ron Paul

183 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:45am

mebst! This Palin is onto our plot!

We must discredit her!

Does she not see that by removing the elderly, and denying care to the less attractive of your species, we create more hotties for ourselves (to use as love slaves for the entertainment of you soon to be global masters)!

She will not get a bagel!

She must be discredited before she spreads the truth too far!

This is why we removed her from Alaska. We brought all of those law suits! She is the most pro-woman feminist woman on your planet!

We at the Zionist Occupation of Remulak demand it!

///

184 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:50am

re: #152 Cato the Elder

And I can care less. It isn't good when Walter does it, it's not good when Medaura does it, it's not good when you do it. The insults and ad hominem arguments take away the power of our criticisms and give those who would criticize us for our opinions ammunition to use against us.

Calling Sarah Palin a "bimbo" is silly. Calling her "cowardly" for finishing out her term as governor is highly appropriate. One is merely an insult, and the other describes her.

185 outsidephilly  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:52am

re: #159 2senseplain

Very real. Traffic remains snarled from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem and into the Modiin area as the IDF and border police try to find him. Just got a call from my son that his leave is cancelled "but we're not allowed to tell you why, Ima", like I don't hear the radio or see the internet. I'm torn between dread for this young man and somewhat shamed relief that I know where my son is.

(((2senseplain )))

186 Bruce Rheinstein  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:23:58am

Gee, I don't know where people are getting this crazy notion that the Administration plans to save money by limiting care for the elderly. Consider this scaremonger:

THE PRESIDENT: So that's where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that's also a huge driver of cost, right?

I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.

LEONHARDT: So how do you - how do we deal with it?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

187 theheat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:24:11am

re: #165 zombie

I wouldn't vote for A or B to be president of my fucking garden club, and that's the truth.

I suppose C, and then kick and scream when A or B got voted in.

And I have doubts about Palin getting the nomination, unless someone sews her lips shut during the entire campaign.

188 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:24:23am

re: #167 mikeymom

i think so pBMb

Thanks. I was afraid senility (or plain simple-mindedness) had struck.

189 midwestgak  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:24:24am

re: #170 Macker

You forgot Ron Paul.

He said, "viable" candadite.

190 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:24:29am

re: #165 zombie

I can't answer that. I wish I could, but I don't, presently, have a very positive view of Palin, I detest Obama, but I'm fascinated by the continuing drone strikes, and the possibility that Obama's not screwing up.

So, I can't answer.

191 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:25:05am

re: #187 theheat

And I have doubts about Palin getting the nomination, unless someone sews her lips shut during the entire campaign.

She won't win the nomination- there is too much misogyny in our culture yet.

192 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:25:10am

re: #175 Cato the Elder

I was merely adopting your stance on "insults". The notion that in this country of all nations one must refrain from being impolite to politicians is astonishing.

Unless it's at a town hall meeting, right?

193 gonecamping  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:25:14am

There is no "Death Panel" based on age...
...however, there will be a 'review board' that will determine who should have treatment and/or vasectomies...
...and they will check to see if you have the Obama Tattoo because only conservatives need to have birth control and only liberals require medical treatment

//

Seriously, I would not doubt that rationing of health care will happen and bean counters will be calling the shots.

194 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:25:18am

re: #189 midwestgak

He said, "viable" candadite.

Harold Stassen!

195 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:25:26am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

If the election were held today, Sarah, but I think you seriously overestimate her chances of securing the nomination. There is nothing 'likely' about it.

196 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:26:00am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012 [...] I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Barack Obama, because it would mean the GOP was begging to die, and I won't refuse a last request.

197 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:26:11am

re: #170 Macker

You forgot Ron Paul.

He's subsumed into option "c".

198 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:26:15am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

B (no other choice?)

199 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:26:16am

re: #190 Dianna

I can't answer that. I wish I could, but I don't, presently, have a very positive view of Palin, I detest Obama, but I'm fascinated by the continuing drone strikes, and the possibility that Obama's not screwing up.

So, I can't answer.

The best thing about the drone strikes is they finally fixed that problem where they kept hitting wedding receptions. Obama must have rewrote the guidance programming himself.

/

200 midwestgak  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:26:23am

re: #189 midwestgak

He said, "viable" candaditecandidate.

201 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:26:33am

re: #134 Charles

Seriously now, the amazing thing about the "death panel" statement is that instead of being repudiated by right wing leadership, they're actually getting behind it! Both Gingrich and Steele have supported Palin.

When I first read that quote at her Facebook page, I thought, "No. She did not really write that."

It was so over the top wacky, I expected her to issue one of those non-apology apologies. Nobody could actually defend that, could they?

Boy, was I wrong.


Rocky to Bullwinkle: "Aw, that trick never works!"

Those non-apology apologies never work. And so, this is not politics as usual.

202 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:26:44am

re: #191 Sharmuta

She won't win the nomination- there is too much misogyny in our culture yet.

Palin, I pray will not. In general, I think that if there were no Obama, Hillary would now be president.

203 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:26:55am

re: #192 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Unless it's at a town hall meeting, right?

Wrong.

204 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:14am

re: #195 CyanSnowHawk

If the election were held today, Sarah, but I think you seriously overestimate her chances of securing the nomination. There is nothing 'likely' about it.

The party's in such a shambles right now, I don't know who would have the inside track. I'd go for Romney again.

205 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:23am

re: #180 Sharmuta

No- it's not.

I would be surprised if anyone that was involved in 08 even shows up for the primaries, no less gets the nomination.

I think who we should be "concerned" about getting the nomination and forcing us into a "do I just stay home or write in Zombie Reagan?" mode is Jindal.

206 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:32am

re: #175 Cato the Elder

I was merely adopting your stance on "insults". The notion that in this country of all nations one must refrain from being impolite to politicians is astonishing.

It's not just politicians, Cato. What the insults do is to affect the civility of life, period. When we drop insults all over the place, we drop any pretense of civility that we have. In other words, we've added to the toxicity of the debate rather than merely adding to the debate. It is exactly these kinds of insults that have made the dead threads so intolerable to read this past week.

207 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:34am

re: #197 zombie

He's subsumed into option "c".

The Silly Party candidate.

208 fizzlogic  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:35am

re: #168 apachegunner

If you have to lie then what your peddling is bogus.

209 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:39am

In the collectivist version of a social-political order founded on the Primacy of the Parasite the ordinary person is looked upon as a tool to be used, the product of their labor is treated as the property of the collective which is distributed in accordance to those needs which are identified by the leaders of the collective.

An individual who is retired from the workforce requires food, housing, and medical care, all of which is taken from the collective pool of assets without any input to the resource pool from the retiree in return. From the point of view of the collective leadership a retiree is a liability to the collective. The good of the collective requires the reduction of such liabilities as early as possible. Thus it is in the best interest of the collective to encourage self-termination by the elderly and the seriously or terminally ill. And it is also in the best interest of the collective to abort those fetuses that will not grow up to be productive workers in the collective.

And if you think that what I just wrote is outrageous, then think again. One group of collectivists, the National Socialists of Germany, actually carried out a program of euthanasia on developmentally challenged individuals of all ages.

Anyone who believes that an individual has no inherent Right to Life is capable of believing anything and, as history has demonstrated, capable of doing anything.

210 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:45am

re: #204 Ward Cleaver

The party's in such a shambles right now, I don't know who would have the inside track. I'd go for Romney again.

I'd write in Romney at this point

211 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:50am

re: #197 zombie

He's subsumed into option "c".

Meaning he's at the Nader of the political spectrum?

212 outsidephilly  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:27:55am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!


Sarah

213 theheat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:28:03am

re: #191 Sharmuta

It depends on the amount of hysteria that prevails during the campaign. She would operate more successfully under the cover of hysteria than intellectual one-on-one, and use it to her advantage.

214 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:28:04am

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

I did not believe Hillary would win the nomination, and for the same reason. This country isn't quite ready for a woman president. Perhaps in the next few decades, but not quite yet.

215 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:28:05am

re: #191 Sharmuta

She won't win the nomination- there is too much misogyny in our culture yet.

Uhm, or too much intolerance to dumb, hysterics-mongering, incompetent, populist and inexperienced politicians in our culture. Yet... I hope.

216 FQ Kafir  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:28:10am

Who does the GOP have if you exclude Palin?

Huck, Romney, or Guiliani. Which has a real chance? Or should the GOP hope for a dark horse?

217 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:28:13am

re: #191 Sharmuta

She won't win the nomination- there is too much misogyny in our culture yet.

My wife agrees with you. She said that a big reason a lot of people she knew talked about voting for Obama was because McCain picked "that woman" as his running mate. That being said, Palin hasn't been doing a very good job showcasing herself as an electable candidate so far. She needs to tone back on the hyperbole or at least make it clear she's exaggerating.

218 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:29:07am

re: #184 Honorary Yooper

And I can care less. It isn't good when Walter does it, it's not good when Medaura does it, it's not good when you do it. The insults and ad hominem arguments take away the power of our criticisms and give those who would criticize us for our opinions ammunition to use against us.

Calling Sarah Palin a "bimbo" is silly. Calling her "cowardly" for finishing out her term as governor is highly appropriate. One is merely an insult, and the other describes her.

How about "liar"?

re: #153 Charles

It's blatant fear-mongering, and I'm quite sure she's aware of it, as are Steele and Gingrich.

In other words, she's a calculating political liar.

219 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:29:33am

I've got to admit to being a little amused at watching the lefties squirm and whine about being subjected to this admittedly foolish nazi stuff.

Their complaints are like the Superbowl, the Tour de France, and the Apollo Moon Landing of craven hypocrisy all rolled into one.

220 Digital Display  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:29:34am

Zombie: There is a better chance of me nominated for POTUS than Sarah..
She quit her last elected gig. She'd be destroyed in the primaries..
I like Sarah as a person..But not ever for elected office again.

221 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:29:53am

re: #180 Sharmuta

No- it's not.

Really?

Then why is she tied for the lead in recent polls for the 2012 Republican nomination?

222 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:30:12am

re: #186 Bruce Rheinstein

Gee, I don't know where people are getting this crazy notion that the Administration plans to save money by limiting care for the elderly. Consider this scaremonger:

DEATH PANELS! OMG!

We're on the road to euthanasia.

223 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:30:21am

The DNC is right now laundering money to donate to SarahPAC, because the bimbo hack is their dream opponent for 2012.

224 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:30:25am

re: #206 Honorary Yooper

It's not just politicians, Cato. What the insults do is to affect the civility of life, period. When we drop insults all over the place, we drop any pretense of civility that we have. In other words, we've added to the toxicity of the debate rather than merely adding to the debate. It is exactly these kinds of insults that have made the dead threads so intolerable to read this past week.

(sorely tempted to unlimber SockPuppy to give that another up-ding.)

225 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:30:40am

re: #214 Sharmuta

I don't share your pessimism. You may be correct, but I truly hope that you are wrong about this.

226 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:30:44am

re: #195 CyanSnowHawk

If the election were held today, Sarah, but I think you seriously overestimate her chances of securing the nomination. There is nothing 'likely' about it.

See comment #221.

227 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:30:53am

Ironically, when you read the article at Palin's Facebook page, it doesn't come across - to me anyway - as lunatic at all.

It may well be fear mongering. I just wish I could trust those currently in power in this country not to put a fast one over on us. It's not like it hasn't already happened.

So if one day soon my mom is gone because she sought EOL counseling, should I just not worry about it? How about if it's my kid sister instead?

Again, is it only fear mongering, or genuinely valid concerns?
[Link: www.facebook.com...]

228 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:31:16am

re: #186 Bruce Rheinstein

Gee, I don't know where people are getting this crazy notion that the Administration plans to save money by limiting care for the elderly. Consider this scaremonger:


gee, such a thing could color Sarah's thought couldn't it? Sounds like the removal of health benefits to older people who were past providing good to the society. golly!

229 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:31:18am

re: #222 Charles

DEATH PANELS! OMG!

We're on the road to euthanasia.

Will there by Japanese Schoolgirls among the youth in Asia? Because if there are, I'm so there.

230 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:31:35am

re: #223 Cato the Elder

No offense, but that routine is getting a little old by now. Find a new phrase.

231 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:31:38am

re: #191 Sharmuta

She won't win the nomination- there is too much misogyny in our culture yet.

That may be, but misogyny or not, if she keeps on this track, this line of thought, she'll never make it anywhere near the presidency ever again. While the whole concept of "death panels" or "death squads" might be fodder for the nuts on the far right, most folks won't buy into that, and her words and her actions will preclude her from the nomination if the GOP is serious about winning in 2012.

232 Alaska Kim  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:31:39am

re: #223 Cato the Elder

The DNC is right now laundering money to donate to SarahPAC, because the bimbo hack is their dream opponent for 2012.

Do you know how juvenile this makes you look?

233 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:32:03am

re: #205 ArchangelMichael

I would be surprised if anyone that was involved in 08 even shows up for the primaries, no less gets the nomination.

I think who we should be "concerned" about getting the nomination and forcing us into a "do I just stay home or write in Zombie Reagan?" mode is Jindal.

I don't think it will be Jindal either. His address after the State of the Union killed any chances he had in 2012.

To Governor Pawlenty, I have two words: bridge collapse.

I think Romney has a shot again, but it's far too soon to speculate.

234 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:32:35am

re: #214 Sharmuta

I did not believe Hillary would win the nomination, and for the same reason. This country isn't quite ready for a woman president. Perhaps in the next few decades, but not quite yet.

I think McCain would have beaten Hillary and perhaps for the reason you are suggesting. But, Hillary has high negatives...much higher than Obama's. She was a known commodity and you either loved her or hated her. Obama rode in with the biggest push from the MSM ever, after 8 years of an unpopular President from the other party and with a large turn out of newly minted voters, yet he was barely able to beat John McCain, who in my estimation ran an extremely poor campaign.

The USA will elect a woman one day...the question is which one?

235 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:32:42am

re: #214 Sharmuta

I did not believe Hillary would win the nomination, and for the same reason. This country isn't quite ready for a woman president. Perhaps in the next few decades, but not quite yet.

Many people said the same thing about Obama and blacks not being electable.

236 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:03am

re: #216 FQ Kafir

Who does the GOP have if you exclude Palin?

Huck, Romney, or Guiliani. Which has a real chance? Or should the GOP hope for a dark horse?


RACIST!!!
Huck...No!
Romney...Yes ! Yet they will beat the Mormon thing...
Guliani Yes ...but "almost" to moderate for me!

237 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:23am

re: #222 Charles

DEATH PANELS! OMG!

We're on the road to euthanasia.

Didn't that star Bob Hope and Bing Crosby, and Dorothy Lamour? I love all those road pictures.

/

238 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:24am

re: #220 HoosierHoops

Zombie: There is a better chance of me nominated for POTUS than Sarah..
She quit her last elected gig. She'd be destroyed in the primaries..
I like Sarah as a person..But not ever for elected office again.

Then why is she leading the polls?

239 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:29am

re: #221 zombie

Really?

Then why is she tied for the lead in recent polls for the 2012 Republican nomination?

In 2001 and 2005, what did those polls look like for the Democrats. I can guarantee neither said anything about John F'n Kerry or Barack Obama.

240 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:37am

re: #166 Slumbering Behemoth

Are you saying what I think you're saying?

/keep in mind, I'm a juvenile misogynist.
//

If you mean that I was saying that pissing off a Roman Matron frequently was a good way to end up floating in the Tiber, then I am saying what you think I was saying.

241 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:45am

re: #218 Cato the Elder

In other words, she's a calculating political liar.

"Liar" works very well, and is an accurate descriptor of her right now. It's one reason I don't really care much for her right now.

242 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:49am

re: #49 zombie

Perhaps Palin would have more traction if she framed things this way:

Whenever you have nationalized health care, there is inevitably a slide toward scarcity of medical treatment. This has been documented in Canada and Great Britain, where doctors have emigrated en masse, more people flock in to get the free health care, and the end result is very long waiting times and sometiems unavailability of some forms of care.

In a situation like that, where more people request or require care than can be promptly helped, some sort of triage must take place. Certain patients and certain treatments necessarily must be given priority over others -- just as in a battlefield hospital.

Who is going to make those decsions? What will the effects be? One could reasonably argue that some people will inevitably medically suffer (and perhaps even die) because their treatment was deferred due to the triage process. All as a result of the doctor shortage likely to loom under rnationalized health care.

This is exactly where the fear is coming from. It's not so much the language in the bill(s), but where it is feared it will lead. Further, there is a lot of distrust of congress after seeing amendments added without review at the last minute before the vote (on other legislation). Who knows what will actually end up in the bill(s) when finally passed and signed after being so amended or after "place holders" are filled in later? Oregon already has assisted suicide laws that could be used as a model for 'fixing' the current laws when they inevitably lead to the shortages you refer to. Add in a little 'counseling' and there is reason to be fearful.

This is not just irrational fear mongering ... it's a reaction to what we've seen in practice here and in the U.K.

243 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:49am

re: #108 SurferDoc

I am 66 and I have already been sent home with a bag of pills to die once. I have resources and alternatives and I will get the surgery I need. I don't expect Obamacare to be any kinder, in fact any reading of Obamacare lessens my options and my chances for survival. I'm not going to through stones at Sarah Palin for being somewhat hyperbolic in pointing these things out.

There's something people are missing when they compare a private health insurance plan refusing to pay for a certain treatment and when a government-run system does so.

Under a private system like we have now, you have the freedom to do just what you said, and use your own resources to get the treatment you need.

With a Canadian-style system, you won't have that option. That's why Canadians with money travel to the US for treatment.

Once we trash our system and adopt Canada's, where are Americans going to go for treatment? Mexico?

244 jvic  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:33:49am

re: #22 medaura18586

Stirring the irrational passions of the so-con base. She welcomes gratuitous controversy with these asinine remarks, and I'll tell you why: I am tooth and nail against ObamaCare but favor the availability of euthanasia, and just like me, there is a considerable chunk of the electorate that opposes this bill out of economic and pragmatic considerations and couldn't care less about whether abortion is funded or euthenasia covered. She doesn't offer anything to us.

All she does is provide a red herring for derailing the subject at hand from one on the merits of socialized health-care versus market-based initiatives into one about euthanasia. How stupid is that? How unhelpful in that to opponents of ObamaCare?

I completely agree. As long as euthanasia or assisted suicide are voluntary, of course.

Some on the right want to outlaw assisted suicide altogether. They make the "argument" that because assisted suicide probably has led to instances of involuntary all-but-euthanasia in rationed-care systems, therefore all assisted suicide should be made illegal. "QED." (And while we're at it, note that some people abuse painkillers. So let's make doctors wary of being prosecuted for prescribing them.)

IMO it's to this constituency that Palin is blowing a dog whistle. Very ineptly if she seeks national office; maybe effectively if she wants a gig to compete with Glenn Beck.

I've posted this before and I'm posting it again. My life is not the property of the State. And that includes a theocratic State.

245 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:34:15am

re: #221 zombie

Really?

Then why is she tied for the lead in recent polls for the 2012 Republican nomination?

That's over a month old. Her current favorability numbers are down.

246 brent  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:34:27am

#186 Thank You.

It's fun to pile on Sara Palin (mmm, pile on), but there is a big disconnect between cutting half a trillion dollars for medicare and adding all the boomers in the pipes.
As rationing of care starts happening, you are going to have doctors pressured to make these kinds of choices - people are going to be presented the options, if not pressured outright, on minimizing care and saving the system money.
If the government thinks this conversation is necessary and not politically expedient, who do you think will be giving it?

247 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:34:27am

re: #165 zombie


a. Barack Obama

I could not bring myself to vote for a man who is my philosophical polar opposite. The only way would be in an Edwin Edwards v David Duke situation--which I have faced.

b. Sarah Palin

If that is the choice-- and depending on the running mate--yes. She's is no David Duke--not even close. But, again, it depends on the running mate.

Otherwise, options c and d amount in me throwing away my vote, and that is also something which goes against my nature.

248 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:34:32am

re: #237 Ward Cleaver

Didn't that star Bob Hope and Bing Crosby, and Dorothy Lamour? I love all those road pictures.

/

The ending that one really sucked though

249 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:34:38am

re: #204 Ward Cleaver

The party's in such a shambles right now, I don't know who would have the inside track. I'd go for Romney again.

I liked Frank Keating before, and like him even more now. Best of all, he already has a sterling record as a chief executive in government.

250 swampleg  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:34:41am

Sorry Charlie:

You are off base on this one. Every type of government managed and directed health care system has some form of non-price allocation system (composed of individuals usually formed into a board) that decides who (or what) gets treatment and who (or what) does not get treatment.

Given the legislation's combination of some sort of cost effectiveness board, Obama's obession to "bend the cost curve" in health care, and his general belief (based on his health care adviser's conclusions) that a lot of health care for the elderly and other individuals is not "cost-effective" it is hard to conclude that there will not be some sort of board which effectively determines who will live and who will die.

This has occurred in other countries regardless of whether the equivalent to the "cost effectiveness board" is given the de jure power to make such decisions. The pressure of infinite demand at zero prices and the desire for cost control inevitibly leads to such rationing. From a chronically ill individual's perspective who has to appeal to these boards for access to treatment, these will be "death boards."

Governor Palin may not be correct and the Obama plan may not lead to such an extreme result. However, if it doesn't then Obama is truely "the one," because that result will be unique in the annals of government planned health care systems.

As a professional economist I can tell you that Palin is significantly closer to be correct on this issue than you are.

I am disappointed in you. With Islamists you have an ability to see beyond what they say and look at the implications of what they are doing. With regard to our putative health care planners in our own Congress, you appear to take what they say at face value and seem unable to either project forward and look at the implications of what they doing or look underneath their shallow rhetoric about the plan. Even liberals such as Mickey Kaus and Camile Paglia are able to look at the economic implications of the health care reform bill and see that there is something to be concerned about with regard to these cost effectiveness panels and the government's cost containment objectives and something to the concerns that Governor Palin highlights.

So Charlie, step back, take a breath and ask yourself if what Governor Palin predicting really that far out of the experience of what the other first world countries have experienced with regard to rationing and euthanasia? If you do a little research you will see that it is not.

Swampleg

251 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:34:49am

re: #235 zombie

Many people said the same thing about Obama and blacks not being electable.

Both blacks and women are obviously electable. That doesn't mean it was a good idea to prove this point by electing any black politicians (Obama -- no accomplishments and no experience) just as we shouldn't demand that any woman (Palin -- unqualified, inexperienced, not the brightest tool in the shed) be elected.

252 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:35:04am

re: #222 Charles

We're on the road to euthanasia.

Worst. Crosby. And. Hope. Film. Ever.

253 VioletTiger  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:35:08am

re: #220 HoosierHoops

Zombie: There is a better chance of me nominated for POTUS than Sarah..
She quit her last elected gig. She'd be destroyed in the primaries..
I like Sarah as a person..But not ever for elected office again.


She can't win the primary. I don't think she even plans to run. I think she sees herself as the next Hannity or Rush. I expect that before the year end, she will have some sort of media deal announced.

254 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:35:12am

re: #174 chotii

You're making my point for me. The provisions for end of life counseling in the health care bill are already in current insurance programs.

These horrible specters being trotted out by Palin and others are absolutely standard practice right now. To claim that the Obamacare bill is some awful new version of euthanasia is... yes, blatant fear-mongering.

It's a disgrace, and it serves to preemptively discredit the many valid criticisms of nationalized health care.

255 SurferDoc  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:35:26am

Sarah

256 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:35:28am

re: #233 Sharmuta

I don't think it will be Jindal either. His address after the State of the Union killed any chances he had in 2012.

To Governor Pawlenty, I have two words: bridge collapse.

I think Romney has a shot again, but it's far too soon to speculate.

The Minnesota legislature is dominated by the Donks. They would rather spend money on mass transit schemes than on proper maintenance.

257 KansasMom  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:35:28am

re: #223 Cato the Elder

The DNC is right now laundering money to donate to SarahPAC, because the bimbo hack is their dream opponent for 2012.

Enough with calling her a bimbo. Are you trying to say she sleeps around? Dresses provocatively? Because if Palin is a bimbo by your definition then you'd probably have to come up with a worse word for me.
Say what you want about her politics, choices of words recently, whatever. But the misogynistic insults are misplaced.

258 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:35:46am

re: #245 Sharmuta

That's over a month old. Her current favorability numbers are down.

And 2012 is over 3 years away. But it shows she is among the leading candidates, at this stage. Like it or not.

259 KingKenrod  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:36:25am

re: #62 Thanos

I know more about the Lisa-Sarah differences than you do, I'm from Alaska. Lisa is not big government, she couldn't get elected in Alaska if she were.

There's a rumor going around that Lisa Murkowski was related to a former Governor and he might have appointed her. :) OK, she did win one Senate election, but you must concede there's some nepotism in her career. Maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong about that.

As an Alaskan Senator, her #1 job is to make sure Federal dollars keep flowing into her state - I don't hate her for that, it's her job, which is why she supported the "bridge to nowhere" and Alaskans expect that with the huge federal ownership of the state.

Didn't she toy with supporting the stimulus? Didn't Palin try to resist some of the stimulus money? I think that's a key difference in how they view federal control.

And she's got to hate Palin for Palin refusing to rule out a primary challenge for months.

I just like to point out the political motivations that hide behind the positions and statements politicians make. I agree with Murkowski on this one - it's important to show some sanity still exists in the GOP.

260 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:36:27am

re: #232 Alaska Kim

Do you know how juvenile this makes you look?

Thanks, I've been feeling old lately.

261 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:36:47am

re: #252 Slumbering Behemoth

Worst. Crosby. And. Hope. Film. Ever.

GMTA.

262 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:36:49am

Zombie: I only entertain hypothetical situations when they bear some small chance of realization. The R's are not going to put a quitter on a national ticket.

263 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:36:52am

CNN poll: Palin’s net favorable rating at -9

From Yesterday.

264 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:37:13am

re: #204 Ward Cleaver

The party's in such a shambles right now, I don't know who would have the inside track. I'd go for Romney again.

Given the changes in fortune that took place during the primaries for the '08 cycle, when the GOP seemed to be much less shambled, there is no way that I could call any candidate likely for '12. Can't totally discount what zombie proposed, but I can't call it likely either.

She does look like she's damaged goods now though, but what do I know, I thought Giuliani was likely to be the candidate.

265 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:37:19am

re: #237 Ward Cleaver

Didn't that star Bob Hope and Bing Crosby, and Dorothy Lamour? I love all those road pictures.

/

Some people thought they were licentious, but what could be sarong about Dorothy?

266 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:38:06am

re: #237 Ward Cleaver

Didn't that star Bob Hope and Bing Crosby, and Dorothy Lamour? I love all those road pictures.

/

Heh. It's Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin starring in "Road to Euthanasia," co-starring Bing Crosby and Murvyn Vye.

267 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:38:08am

re: #258 zombie

And 2012 is over 3 years away. But it shows she is among the leading candidates, at this stage. Like it or not.

This has nothing to do with me liking it or not. It has to do with reality. She's dropping support, big time.

268 irish rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:38:09am

Well, that's it for me.
I don't appreciate this type of opportunistic fearmongering.

It's particularly disgusting because she knows that she's targeting a very vulnerable population, a demographic that may not have a full grasp of the facts at hand (for various reasons) and will cast a vote or oppose a bill strictly out of fear.

This is nothing less than exploitation of the elderly, and it makes me want to puke.

Any respect that I may have had for Sarah Palin in the past is now GONE.

269 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:38:29am

re: #26 philip


Regarding 2012, as Philip Seymour Hoffman beautifully sez in Charlie Wilson's War: "We'll see!"

Til then, observe that your moron baited her trap with "Death Panels" that "Iwon Obeyme" stepped right into 2 days ago in NH. Now she sets a new one with her reference: "As Charles Lane notes in the Washington Post, Section 1233 “addresses compassionate goals in disconcerting proximity to fiscal ones... If it’s all about obviating suffering, emotional or physical, what’s it doing in a measure to “bend the curve” on health-care costs?” [6]

This drives the issue further before the public, creating even further doubts about the methods/motives of the DEMS/WH, and they will probably be forced to respond again, and it goes around for a new news cycle. She's a savvy moron, keep mis-underestimating her abilities.

Check the polls: Rasmussen now posts that DEMS/Obama are losing the battle for public opinion, with the unaffiliated now scoring 62% opposed and of that 51% strongly opposed, which out scores even the Repubs.

The middle ground is where these issues are won or lost, and your progressives are losing more ground by the day, even with child plants in the audience to keep the purple shirts in line, while the DEMs attack the American public as they have never been so insulted.

Please, keep it up - til '2012. Then, as Seymour sez: "We'll See!", and 2010 will be a great precursor.

270 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:38:43am

re: #233 Sharmuta

I don't think it will be Jindal either. His address after the State of the Union killed any chances he had in 2012.

To Governor Pawlenty, I have two words: bridge collapse.

I think Romney has a shot again, but it's far too soon to speculate.

I really hope this bit about Jindal is true. I heard that asinine train-wreck of speech he gave. I also heard Limbaugh praising it for a week or so after and every "conservative" on radio and TV tripping over themselves to call him the "Next Reagan."

271 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:38:52am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

I really don't think this will happen, Zombie. First, I don't think the Republican establishment likes her much judging by the way she was treated by them immediately after the election. Second, I think she shot herself in the foot by resigning (necessary or not) as indicated by recent polling that shows her numbers dropping. I don't have a crystal ball as to who the nominee might be, but I think it's more likely to be someone like Romney.

272 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:39:04am

re: #257 KansasMom

Bimbo = gum-snapping cheerleader type who was told early on that a flirty wink and perky tits would take her places no brainy girl could hope to go. She's been workin' it ever since.

273 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:39:09am

re: #220 HoosierHoops

Zombie: There is a better chance of me nominated for POTUS than Sarah..
She quit her last elected gig. She'd be destroyed in the primaries..
I like Sarah as a person..But not ever for elected office again.


Hoops, that wasn't the question. No doubt you'd not vote for nobama and I am sure you wouldn't vote. Sooo?

274 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:39:17am

re: #266 Charles

Heh. It's Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin starring in "Road to Euthanasia," co-starring Bing Crosby and Murvyn Vye.

Euthanasia keeps popping up in Sci-Fi novels.

275 blangwort  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:39:25am

There is one very possible outcome from the Dem's health care plan: Real Health Care will either be outsourced to other countries via medical tourism or you will have to pay a competent doctor a retainer to get any competent help.

Already people are getting high quality surgical procedures done in foreign countries hungry for cash at very reasonable prices. Obamacare will probably raise prices so much that people will be making regular trips overseas just to see a decent doctor.

Will it kill people? No. It will merely increase the cost of the medical bureaucracy to the point where people will find it cheaper to go elsewhere. People with no financial resources will bollix up the system, and they'll still die.

276 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:39:26am
Thirty-nine percent of people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Wednesday have a favorable opinion of the former Alaska governor and last year’s Republican vice presidential nominee. That’s down seven points from a poll conducted in May, and it’s also nine points lower than the 48 percent who now say they now view Palin unfavorably. Forty-three percent viewed Palin negatively in May.

“Most of that change has come among Republicans and conservatives,”

[Link: hotair.com...]

277 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:39:55am

re: #253 VioletTiger

She can't win the primary. I don't think she even plans to run. I think she sees herself as the next Hannity or Rush. I expect that before the year end, she will have some sort of media deal announced.

If she's smart, that is exactly what she should do. If she makes a run for the White House, it will be even worse than before. She has the burning searing hatred of the left to deal with regardless, running for President would only amplify that. When they really want to the MSM can dig up the dirt on anyone. When they really don't want too, we get Obama.

278 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:40:21am

I think Palin could be a player in '12, if not the nominee. She has an almost hypnotic appeal to a large part of the base. Her recent missteps won't hurt her with them while her forays into crazy will actually help.
I could see her sweeping to the nomination on a wave of well-planned hysteria.

279 KansasMom  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:40:24am

re: #268 irish rose

Well, that's it for me.
I don't appreciate this type of opportunistic fearmongering.

It's particularly disgusting because she knows that she's targeting a very vulnerable population, a demographic that may not have a full grasp of the facts at hand (for various reasons) and will cast a vote or oppose a bill strictly out of fear.

This is nothing less than exploitation of the elderly, and it makes me want to puke.

Any respect that I may have had for Sarah Palin in the past is now GONE.

I know a lot of retirees who are having problems sleeping -- nightmares and such -- because of all this. The rhetoric needs to be kept reasonable. No good can come from fomenting this level of fear.

280 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:40:31am

re: #266 Charles

Heh. It's Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin starring in "Road to Euthanasia," co-starring Bing Crosby and Murvyn Vye.

"What's all this fuss about the youth in Asia?"

/emily litella

/never mind!

281 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:40:38am

“A 39 percent favorable rating makes it that much tougher for Palin to become president should she decide to run in 2012. Her favorable rating is almost identical to the numbers that former vice president Dan Quayle got just after leaving office in 1993,” says Holland.

282 AuntAcid  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:40:50am

"Coach" must have a hole in his soul or his head.


"Though Dungy isn't giving any hints about where Vick will go, Dungy believes the former Atlanta Falcon will be with a new team before the movie's release date, Aug. 25.

``He's talked to a lot of people, and I don't know why I say this, but I think something will happen this week,'' Dungy said. ``All you need is that one team.

That is our prayer - that he finds that one team and that he finds the best opportunity to make it work.''

283 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:41:09am

When placed in the context of the full essay, Palin's comments do not appear to be quite so alarmist as suggested by some:

Section 1233 authorizes advanced care planning consultations for senior citizens on Medicare every five years, and more often “if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual ... or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility... or a hospice program." [3] During those consultations, practitioners must explain “the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,” and the government benefits available to pay for such services. [4]

Now put this in context. These consultations are authorized whenever a Medicare recipient’s health changes significantly or when they enter a nursing home, and they are part of a bill whose stated purpose is “to reduce the growth in health care spending.” [5] Is it any wonder that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care? As Charles Lane notes in the Washington Post, Section 1233 “addresses compassionate goals in disconcerting proximity to fiscal ones... If it’s all about obviating suffering, emotional or physical, what’s it doing in a measure to “bend the curve” on health-care costs?” [6]

Her conclusion places the emphasis on the inescapable fact of health care rationing under the gov't funded scheme:

Of course, it’s not just this one provision that presents a problem. My original comments concerned statements made by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President’s chief of staff. Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens...An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” [10] Dr. Emanuel has also advocated basing medical decisions on a system which “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.” [11]

President Obama can try to gloss over the effects of government authorized end-of-life consultations, but the views of one of his top health care advisors are clear enough. It’s all just more evidence that the Democratic legislative proposals will lead to health care rationing, and more evidence that the top-down plans of government bureaucrats will never result in real health care reform.

Cherry picking one over-the-top paragraph, does a disservice to an otherwise very sensible argument against the Democratic health care plans.

284 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #257 KansasMom

Enough with calling her a bimbo. Are you trying to say she sleeps around? Dresses provocatively?

You don't have to dress provocatively or sleep around to be a bimbo, you just have to be dumb. And yes, men can be bimbos too.

285 KansasMom  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:41:46am

re: #272 Cato the Elder

Bimbo = gum-snapping cheerleader type who was told early on that a flirty wink and perky tits would take her places no brainy girl could hope to go. She's been workin' it ever since.

Sigh. I miss those.

Oh, and go to hell.

286 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:41:55am

re: #231 Honorary Yooper

That may be, but misogyny or not, if she keeps on this track, this line of thought, she'll never make it anywhere near the presidency ever again. While the whole concept of "death panels" or "death squads" might be fodder for the nuts on the far right, most folks won't buy into that, and her words and her actions will preclude her from the nomination if the GOP is serious about winning in 2012.


thats the problem, I've no trust in the GOP and their seriousness in anything.

287 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:42:00am

re: #272 Cato the Elder

Bimbo = gum-snapping cheerleader type who was told early on that a flirty wink and perky tits would take her places no brainy girl could hope to go. She's been workin' it ever since.

Cato, I am beginning to think that maybe, just maybe, you are not very fond of Sarah Palin.

288 dhimmishelter  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:42:10am

Perhaps Sarah is using the wrong language here and using descritions such as "death panels" may be hyperbole. But consider the murky statements made by The Annointed One in an interview with David Leonhardt of the Times last spring...(from Mickey Kaus)

President Barack Obama said his grandmother’s hip-replacement surgery during the final weeks of her life made him wonder whether expensive procedures for the terminally ill reflect a “sustainable model” for health care.

I am not reassured that he is not interested in having government panels and "experts" determine "best practices" for "end of life care". I suspect he seeks to cut costs by perhaps hastening the end of life part of end of life care. viz...


From the same interview...
THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?

I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.

DAVID LEONHARDT: So how do you — how do we deal with it?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

So Obama "suspects" that the legislative process will produce some sort of independent group that can give non-determinative "guidance" on end-of-life care for the chronically ill, with an eye towards saving money.
Hmmm... I don't like where this seems to be going. What happens to those doctors who chronically do not follow the "non-determinative guidance" of the expert panel? Do they get audited? Investigated?
This is way too much intrusion. As Peggy Noonan titled a recent article regarding Obamacare and the congress..."You are Terrifying Us."

289 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:42:11am

re: #263 Sharmuta

CNN poll: Palin’s net favorable rating at -9

From Yesterday.

Wow! That's quite good. Better than expected, and almost certainly better than any other Republican potential nominee. Which again puts her in the running.

Also note from that same poll the only number that matters: Her Republican support:

"67 percent of Republicans viewed her favorably."

Party nominations are limited to party members. Doesn't matter what the national polls including Dems say.

67% positive among Republicans puts her in a strong position to get the nomination. Thanks for the confirming link.

290 KingKenrod  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:42:23am

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

I would vote for Palin. But I wold never vote for her in the primary - she's at the bottom of the list. OK, Ron Paul is actually below her.

I would not vote for Ron Paul.

291 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:42:40am

re: #289 zombie

You are delusional.

292 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:03am

This is too much like shooting wolves from a helicopter. Later!

293 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:11am

re: #254 Charles

Charles, confirmation please. Is my #137 (quoted below) correct? Are these legal docs all that Section 1233 is talking about?

re: #137 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I've stayed away from this subject until this thread because I can't see WTF the big deal is.

#1233 seems to be talking about what I (and my daughter, my heir) already have, from a decade ago -- a durable power of attorney, a durable power of attorney for health care, and a directive to physicians.

Sarah, I respect th' hell outta you, but was I wrong to get those in the first place? What's the big deal about them?

Am I missing something?!?!?!?!?!

294 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:17am

re: #238 zombie

Then why is she leading the polls?

Name recognition.

295 VioletTiger  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:19am

re: #277 Desert Dog

If she's smart, that is exactly what she should do. If she makes a run for the White House, it will be even worse than before. She has the burning searing hatred of the left to deal with regardless, running for President would only amplify that. When they really want to the MSM can dig up the dirt on anyone. When they really don't want too, we get Obama.

She had to know that quitting her job alone would spoil her chances for another elected office. Now she is courting the Beck audience with her comments.
I give it about 3 or 4 months to the Sarah Palin Show.

296 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:24am

re: #264 CyanSnowHawk

Given the changes in fortune that took place during the primaries for the '08 cycle, when the GOP seemed to be much less shambled, there is no way that I could call any candidate likely for '12. Can't totally discount what zombie proposed, but I can't call it likely either.

She does look like she's damaged goods now though, but what do I know, I thought Giuliani was likely to be the candidate.

I think Romney pulled (and was forced out, thans to Huck and McCain) out before any real damage could be made to his long term reputation. I still have high hopes for him in the future.

297 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:35am

re: #261 Ward Cleaver

The "Road To..." films were before my time, but they are comedy classics. I loves 'em.

298 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:44am

re: #250 swampleg

It's a EUTHANASIA DEATH PANEL! Oh noes.

299 Alaska Kim  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:45am

re: #272 Cato the Elder

Bimbo
= gum-snapping cheerleader type who was told early on that a flirty
wink and perky tits would take her places no brainy girl could hope to
go. She's been workin' it ever since.

Pull your head out, Cato.

300 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:43:56am

re: #267 Sharmuta

This has nothing to do with me liking it or not. It has to do with reality. She's dropping support, big time.

My poll was a hypothetical: I was not asking how likely she is to get the nomination: I was asking how people would vote in the hypothetical scenario that she was running against Obama. Pollsters ask such question all the time.

301 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:44:26am

re: #283 Kenneth

Cherry picking one over-the-top paragraph, does a disservice to an otherwise very sensible argument against the Democratic health care plans.

It is a disservice she did to herself (and her fans) by putting the over-the-top paragraph in there.

302 irish rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:44:33am

re: #279 KansasMom

I know a lot of retirees who are having problems sleeping -- nightmares and such -- because of all this. The rhetoric needs to be kept reasonable. No good can come from fomenting this level of fear.

I work with the elderly, and you're absolutely correct.

They're having a hard enough time dealing with the very real loss of their 401k's, and other investments that they depended on to survive their more vulnerable years. They certainly don't need this exploitative fearmongering piled on top of that.

It's sick, just absolutely sick.

303 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:44:47am

re: #293 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Charles, confirmation please. Is my #137 (quoted below) correct? Are these legal docs all that Section 1233 is talking about?

I think that's correct. It's so overblown and exaggerated, I'm embarrassed a little bit for her.

304 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:44:49am

re: #209 The Other Les

It's nothing new, alas.

Now, I do not attribute to anyone any malevolent motives in the formulation of this health care plan, in the same way I did not attribute to GWB and his administration in their support of the Patriot Act. Both are, on their face, well intentioned plans meant to achieve a common public good. But, my impression/opinion of them depends on the administration which is enforcing/implementing those laws/schemes.

In other words, either enactment can, in the wrong hands, be used for ill purposes.

Now, there is a huge growing problem in this country that has been ignored for years--Social Security. There is a huge segment of the population that is going to be retiring and wanting a return on that investment. That, coupled with the ever-extending life expectancy of the elderly, could potentially break the system--and the government. It is not inconceivable that another administration, at another time, might consider using the "death with dignity" consultations as a means of getting seniors to take themselves off the dole--for the good of society.

I do not see that happening now--but human nature being what it is--I can see it happening in the future under certain circumstances.

305 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:44:50am
306 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:45:02am

re: #283 Kenneth

Sorry, but it's her responsibility and that of her speechwriters to craft communications that don't contain any quotable disasters. These speeches/essays go through editors and proofreaders and consultants who are all too sensitive to and experienced in the risks of being taken out of context. If they wanted to avoid being misinterpreted, the final version making it out to the public would have been worded very differently.

Also, forget the wording. The focus of the criticism is way off base. There are so many more substantial points to criticize this bill over -- points that will resonate easily, if properly explained, with the average voter and not just the scared infirm easily manipulatable elderly.

307 KingKenrod  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:45:07am

re: #233 Sharmuta

I don't think it will be Jindal either. His address after the State of the Union killed any chances he had in 2012.

To Governor Pawlenty, I have two words: bridge collapse.

I think Romney has a shot again, but it's far too soon to speculate.

I think the right wing is going to go full-scale assault on Romney, who I think is the favorite right now and currently my choice. The assault for 2012 is already starting.

308 VioletTiger  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:45:19am

re: #300 zombie

My poll was a hypothetical: I was not asking how likely she is to get the nomination: I was asking how people would vote in the hypothetical scenario that she was running against Obama. Pollsters ask such question all the time.

I am hoping for a conservative dark horse to ride in and save the day.
I know, unicorns, but we can hope.

309 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:46:40am

re: #271 eschew_obfuscation

I really don't think this will happen, Zombie. First, I don't think the Republican establishment likes her much judging by the way she was treated by them immediately after the election. Second, I think she shot herself in the foot by resigning (necessary or not) as indicated by recent polling that shows her numbers dropping. I don't have a crystal ball as to who the nominee might be, but I think it's more likely to be someone like Romney.

Again, I'm not asking how likely her nomination is, but rather merely asking in a putative scenario that PRESUMES she gets the nomination, how would you vote? If it makes everyone happy, I could also ask poll questions about hypothetical Huckabee-vs-Obama etc. matchups, but they are not germane to this thread.

310 theheat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:46:51am

re: #295 VioletTiger

I give it about 3 or 4 months to the Sarah Palin Show.

If I was in her shoes, that's what I'd do. I'd pander to that so-con base with my best Folksy McFargospeak, check my brain at the door, and make money hand over fist. Hell, even Rush would be jealous.

I figured that's what she was going to do, too. Well, and probably someone will help her write a book.

She can make a mint.

311 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:47:11am

re: #307 KingKenrod

I think the right wing is going to go full-scale assault on Romney, who I think is the favorite right now and currently my choice. The assault for 2012 is already starting.

I'm thinking the GOP will euthanize itself in 2012

312 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:47:12am

re: #303 Charles

I think that's correct. It's so overblown and exaggerated, I'm embarrassed a little bit for her.

Thanks very much.

313 garycooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:47:19am
In an interview with the Detroit News Monday, Senator Debbie Stabenow (D., Mich.) – recently appointed to the Senate Energy Committee – made clear that fighting the climate crisis is her top priority.

“Climate change is very real,” she confessed as she embraced cap and trade’s massive tax increase on Michigan industry – at the same time claiming, against all the evidence, that it would not lead to an increase in manufacturing costs or energy prices. “Global warming creates volatility. I feel it when I’m flying. The storms are more volatile. We are paying the price in more hurricanes and tornadoes.”

[Link: www.moonbattery.com...]

Incroyable! (facepalm)

314 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:47:35am

re: #268 irish rose

Well, that's it for me.
I don't appreciate this type of opportunistic fearmongering.

It's particularly disgusting because she knows that she's targeting a very vulnerable population, a demographic that may not have a full grasp of the facts at hand (for various reasons) and will cast a vote or oppose a bill strictly out of fear.

This is nothing less than exploitation of the elderly, and it makes me want to puke.

Any respect that I may have had for Sarah Palin in the past is now GONE.

WORD! There is a reason con-artists target elderly folks for rip-off scams, and they usually exploit their fears to do so.

315 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:47:46am

re: #307 KingKenrod

I think the right wing is going to go full-scale assault on Romney, who I think is the favorite right now and currently my choice. The assault for 2012 is already starting.

Yeah, the usual batcavers keep chanting "RINO! RINO! RINO!" at Mitt.

Must mean "Republican in National Office."

316 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:47:52am

re: #301 wrenchwench

Yes, & I would prefer more careful language, but the paragraph is not so over-the-top taken in context with the rest of the essay. I don't consider it any more alarmist than the language used by some Democrats trying to make their points. Fear mongering? Sure. But the White House is also into that.

317 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:47:52am

re: #291 Sharmuta

You are delusional.

Are you coming down with ZDS?

318 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:48:26am

re: #305 buzzsawmonkey

I thought that "The Road to Euthanasia" was Hope and Change, after Crosby quit the series?

I'm sure one of the British lizards will bet a Bob that you're correct.

319 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:01am

re: #307 KingKenrod

I think the right wing is going to go full-scale assault on Romney, who I think is the favorite right now and currently my choice. The assault for 2012 is already starting.

Just like they shot down any hope of McCain winning with their RINO hunting 2005-2008, and after. Santorum was blasting McCain even after he won the nomination. It's dickwipes like that who are destroying the future.

320 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:02am

re: #274 The Other Les

Euthanasia keeps popping up in Sci-Fi novels.

Nuthin new. Star Trek TNG had a couple of episodes on it. Also, Logan's Run dealt with it.

321 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:02am

re: #314 Slumbering Behemoth

WORD! There is a reason con-artists target elderly folks for rip-off scams, and they usually exploit their fears to do so.

And loneliness. Never forget that.

Call your moms, lizards!

322 opnion  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:17am

She will not be the nominee in 2012, it will be Romney.

323 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:18am

re: #302 irish rose

My siblings and I would spend every dime + of our sizable
inheritance to fullfill our parents wishes! PERIOD!
Yet I imagine the nest egg raping of many of our elderly
has already tipped them over !!
Sad!

324 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:21am

re: #306 medaura18586

Well yes, Palin could use some better communications skills. That's pretty clear by now. But by my reading, her central point in this essay is that the Democratic plan will lead to service rationing and a loss of choice for patients. Wiser phrasing could have emphasized that point more.

325 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:26am

re: #291 Sharmuta

You are delusional.

It's delusional to think Sarah Palin is popular among Republicans and if she decided to would have a decent chance at getting the Republican nomination in 2012?

OK, if you say so.

326 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:34am

re: #311 albusteve

I'm thinking the GOP will euthanize itself in 2012

Or, Obama's own death panel may sink his chances...CapNTrade, overspending, passing a behemoth Healthcare plan...if the economy continues to waver, the Dems will take a hit in 2010...if it still is not roaring by 2011, Obama will be line to pull a Jimmah. No Bush to blame, no evil Republican finger prints on these policies...the Dems will have to stand up and defend it all.

327 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:50:38am

re: #279 KansasMom


Agreed, keep the rhetoric reasonable with this:Palin Reduced Medicaid Backlog 83% In Two Years, at :[Link: www.facebook.com...]

The facts presented in this article should convince all the Sarah Palin, as AK Gov, performed sincerely and very efficiently to protect the interests and lives of the elderly from heath care rationing, without fear mongering. This should help them worry less about Palin, and more about Obama/Company.

328 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:51:06am

re: #317 wrenchwench

If I showed you a poll of a politician hemorrhaging support, would you still try to tell me it was a good thing for that politician's future?

329 irish rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:51:15am

re: #315 Shiplord Kirel

Yeah, the usual batcavers keep chanting "RINO! RINO! RINO!"

... thereby insuring that the party goes absolutely nowhere in 2012, and beyond.

330 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:51:20am

This part is absolutely correct. (see proposal 424 through page 623 - this counseling can be ordered by doctor)

[]
These consultations are authorized whenever a Medicare recipient’s health changes significantly or when they enter a nursing home,...
[]

This is possible with the way this proposal considers "value" of health care... (See Sec 1401)

[]
...and they are part of a bill whose stated purpose is “to reduce the growth in health care spending.” [5]...
[]

This is pure opinion, based on her feelings, her view, but not based on any actual facts. This is a "knights jump" tour that brings her to this conclusion, with no actual facts or even a thread of evidence.

[]
Is it any wonder that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care?
[]

Can it ever happen? Maybe. Is it a mandate according to the 1100 pages of the health care proposal? No.

331 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:51:26am

re: #309 zombie

Again, I'm not asking how likely her nomination is, but rather merely asking in a putative scenario that PRESUMES she gets the nomination, how would you vote? If it makes everyone happy, I could also ask poll questions about hypothetical Huckabee-vs-Obama etc. matchups, but they are not germane to this thread.

I would vote for her in that scenario. But I don't like it much.

332 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:51:26am
333 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:51:28am

re: #321 Dianna

And loneliness. Never forget that.

Call your moms, lizards!

(... just happening to figure that there's something behind that ...)

{Dianna}

334 dwells38  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:51:51am

re: #278 Shiplord Kirel

In some ways she's GW Bush in a skirt. She's had her chance and it's clear she can't really communicate effectively and often doesn't sound professional or even informed.

I don't believe she's a bimbo or stupid (as many have concluded). I just think she has limitations similar to Bush which would mean her presidency would be an endless lefty/MSM tag team celebration of her alleged stupidity and light weightedness.

Let's not do that again.

335 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:51:51am

re: #329 irish rose

... thereby insuring that the party goes absolutely nowhere in 2012, and beyond.

Oh, it's going somewhere, Rose.

/Think more of a swirling motion...

336 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:52:48am

re: #294 Dianna

Name recognition.

Precisely. And name recognition is the MAIN reason why people win elections. (I give you Roosevelt, Eisenhower, George W. Bush, Ulysses S. Grant, etc. etc., all of whom cashed in on major name recognition to win the presidency).

337 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:52:56am

re: #277 Desert Dog

If she's smart, that is exactly what she should do. If she makes a run for the White House, it will be even worse than before. She has the burning searing hatred of the left to deal with regardless, running for President would only amplify that. When they really want to the MSM can dig up the dirt on anyone. When they really don't want too, we get Obama.

Youse guys are supposing she wants to run for the president. I don't think she does and would figure it a waste of time. Much more can be done than wasting time doing that.

338 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:53:11am

re: #321 Dianna

And loneliness. Never forget that.

Call your moms, lizards!

Also very true. I keep a close eye on grandma. It helps that I live real close to her.

339 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:53:55am

re: #326 Desert Dog

Or, Obama's own death panel may sink his chances...CapNTrade, overspending, passing a behemoth Healthcare plan...if the economy continues to waver, the Dems will take a hit in 2010...if it still is not roaring by 2011, Obama will be line to pull a Jimmah. No Bush to blame, no evil Republican finger prints on these policies...the Dems will have to stand up and defend it all.

all true...anyway by then the GOP will be swarming with an expanded fringe...Paulians, and nirthers and creationists...if Palin represents the GOP leadship and wins the nomination, I'm moving to Nigeria

340 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:54:24am

re: #250 swampleg

Sorry Charlie:

You might get away with this one if you were throwing in some snark, but trying to start a rational argument with it? That's just begging for Stinky's attention.

341 Digital Display  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:54:34am

re: #273 apachegunner

Hoops, that wasn't the question. No doubt you'd not vote for nobama and I am sure you wouldn't vote. Sooo?

Gunner...:)
I'm practicing my politician talk.. I won't answer a direct question with a direct answer. Practice makes perfect

342 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:54:44am

A right-wing blogger who continued to hotlink an image from my server after being asked not to do so has been pwn3d.

343 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:55:03am

re: #328 Sharmuta

If I showed you a poll of a politician hemorrhaging support, would you still try to tell me it was a good thing for that politician's future?

If that politician were still popular in her own party, and I said something positive about her future, would you call me delusional?

344 Bruce Rheinstein  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:55:09am

re: #222 Charles

Euthenasia implies actively killing people. What the Administration proposes is similar to the British NHS deciding who will receive life-saving or life-enhancing care. If you don't make the cut, it can be the equivalent of a "death panel."

President Obama's healthcare advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, has been quite explicit in the past about limiting the amount of care provided to the very young, the very old, and those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia"

345 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:55:37am

All the fascination with 2012 is patently ridiculous considering that congressional elections are less than fifteen months out. If you want to do something about Obama, then Focus There. Presidential terms are four years, if you want to make him less effective in achieving his agenda then you sap from his power base by taking his congressional rubber stamp away.

346 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:55:42am

re: #343 wrenchwench

If that politician were still popular in her own party, and I said something positive about her future, would you call me delusional?

She's hemorrhaging republican support.

347 flyovercountry  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:55:58am

re: #134 Charles

Seriously now, the amazing thing about the "death panel" statement is that instead of being repudiated by right wing leadership, they're actually getting behind it! Both Gingrich and Steele have supported Palin.

When I first read that quote at her Facebook page, I thought, "No. She did not really write that."

It was so over the top wacky, I expected her to issue one of those non-apology apologies. Nobody could actually defend that, could they?

Boy, was I wrong.

Well Charles, I once had a boss who said, "if you're going to make a mistake, make it a big one." It's appropriate here because Sara has no where to go but up from here. By the 2012 election, whatever she says will seem sane by comparison. As I,ve said before, this bill stinks plenty on its own merits, without adding nutty paranoia. My dilemna is, where can I go politically? The Democrats have become flat out marxists, and the GOP has no room left for sane thinking people. We need a third party and soon.

I never thought I would say that in a serious manner, but it is a choice between accepting socialism, or Inteligent Design.

348 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:56:25am

re: #320 calcajun

Nuthin new. Star Trek TNG had a couple of episodes on it. Also, Logan's Run dealt with it.

I recall a Benny Hill sketch where he played a clueless presenter of a program titled "Youth In Asia."

349 Locker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:56:38am

re: #70 Cato the Elder

dumb dumb bimbo hack
over the edge and can't come back
former fans now think she's wack
dumb dumb bimbo hack

Ok that line got me a "what's so funny" from my boss.

350 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:56:44am

I really don't want to do this, but I have a deeply ingrained personal obligation to confront bullshit no matter the source...

"Is it any wonder that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care?" does not mean "You will be hauled off and compelled to die." any more than "Obama voted against the Born-Alive Infant Protection Act." means "Obama is advocating infanticide."

351 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:56:45am

Has this become the right wing version of the left wing mantra of grandma "having to chose between (fill in the blank) and medication?"

352 Airborn Swine  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:56:47am

Not to worry, we have nothing to fear from Barack Obama health reform. We need to tone down the rhetoric and get on board with our friends on the left. After all they are only want what's best for America.

/John McCain

353 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:57:06am

re: #348 The Other Les

I meant serious fiction, silly man./

354 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:57:11am

Update from the batcave!

GA Congressman: Obama Could Use Pandemic To Declare Martial Law

Georgia Congressman Paul Broun warned attendees of a town hall event Tuesday that the Obama administration was planning to use a pandemic or a natural disaster to implement martial law in the United States.

Speaking at the North Georgia Technical College auditorium, Broun said that the “socialistic elite,” as well as Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, were planning to exploit a crisis to create a favorable climate for their stalling political agenda.

“They’re trying to develop an environment where they can take over,” he said. “We’ve seen that historically.”

As a point of information, the ominous photo of troops in face masks that illustrates this article was sourced from Alex Jones's Prison Planet website.

355 theheat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:57:12am

re: #347 flyovercountry

I never thought I would say that in a serious manner, but it is a choice between accepting socialism, or Inteligent Design.

Given those alternatives, maybe euthanasia doesn't seem so bad.

356 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:57:38am

re: #345 Thanos

All the fascination with 2012 is patently ridiculous considering that congressional elections are less than fifteen months out. If you want to do something about Obama, then Focus There. Presidential terms are four years, if you want to make him less effective in achieving his agenda then you sap from his power base by taking his congressional rubber stamp away.

I'm just concerned the GOP will win in 2012 and the country will be overrun with a new kind of doofi...sanity is fast tracking out of here

357 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:58:18am

re: #352 Airborn Swine

After all they are only want what's best for America

Yes, but their idea of "what's best" is what has the rest of us worried.

358 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:58:19am

Here is Palin's full "death panel" essay from a few days ago.

Statement on the Current Health Care Debate


Friday, August 7, 2009 at 1:26pm
As more Americans delve into the disturbing details of the nationalized health care plan that the current administration is rushing through Congress, our collective jaw is dropping, and we’re saying not just no, but hell no!

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Health care by definition involves life and death decisions. Human rights and human dignity must be at the center of any health care discussion.

Rep. Michele Bachmann highlighted the Orwellian thinking of the president’s health care advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of the White House chief of staff, in a floor speech to the House of Representatives. I commend her for being a voice for the most precious members of our society, our children and our seniors.

We must step up and engage in this most crucial debate. Nationalizing our health care system is a point of no return for government interference in the lives of its citizens. If we go down this path, there will be no turning back. Ronald Reagan once wrote, “Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we’ll ever see on this earth.” Let’s stop and think and make our voices heard before it’s too late.

- Sarah Palin

Take that one bizarre sentence out, and the essay is pretty reasonable. Of course, making a reference to Rep. Michele Bachman undermines it a bit.

359 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:58:36am

re: #346 Sharmuta

She's hemorrhaging republican support.

She's all the way down to 67% (according to your own link)! She's finished!

360 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:58:39am
361 Digital Display  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 11:58:56am

re: #272 Cato the Elder

Bimbo = gum-snapping cheerleader type who was told early on that a flirty wink and perky tits would take her places no brainy girl could hope to go. She's been workin' it ever since.

You are being very unfair Cato..
1st off.. She wasn't a bimbo cheerleader type.. She was the starting Point Guard of a championship High school Basketball team. Normally the smartest person on the floor is the PG.
and talking about her perky tits is very unbecoming to judge character and talent.

362 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:00:29pm

Palin will not shake the "quitter" label by 2012. She has no chance at a nomination.

363 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:00:32pm

re: #356 albusteve

I'm just concerned the GOP will win in 2012 and the country will be overrun with a new kind of doofi...sanity is fast tracking out of here

The big dogs aren't even really playing yet, that's over forty months away. Worrying about something forty months or more away is not good for us, we better focus here and now.

364 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:00:39pm

re: #346 Sharmuta

She's hemorrhaging republican support.

No according to the current polls over the last 24 hours. Obama's numbers are down again and more Independents are looking in favor at the protestors and considering their message.

Even though there are jerks out there on the conservative side, the over all effect of the more sane concerned citizens has been to derail the momentum of the Obama Health Care Proposal.

[Link: themoderatevoice.com...]

365 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:01:16pm

re: #341 HoosierHoops

Gunner...:)
I'm practicing my politician talk.. I won't answer a direct question with a direct answer. Practice makes perfect


and you do it so well :>)

366 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:01:17pm

re: #278 Shiplord Kirel

I think Palin could be a player in '12, if not the nominee. She has an almost hypnotic appeal to a large part of the base. Her recent missteps won't hurt her with them while her forays into crazy will actually help.
I could see her sweeping to the nomination on a wave of well-planned hysteria.

However, should she be the nominee in 2012, it will go down the same as the Republican nominee in 1936.

367 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:01:25pm

re: #359 zombie

These numbers are from before her “death panels” comments, so well see if the downward trend line continues. My guess is it will, as people who staunchly defended her last fall are now walking away in greater and greater numbers.

368 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:01:48pm

re: #361 HoosierHoops

You are being very unfair Cato..
1st off.. She wasn't a bimbo cheerleader type.. She was the starting Point Guard of a championship High school Basketball team. Normally the smartest person on the floor is the PG.
and talking about her perky tits is very unbecoming to judge character and talent.

Cato's just envious of her perky boobs

369 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:02:14pm

re: #346 Sharmuta

She's hemorrhaging republican support.

This is from what Hot Air linked to:

"Most of that change has come among Republicans and conservatives," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "GOP voters still like Palin — two-thirds continue to have a favorable view of her — but she is not as wildly popular among GOPers as she was in the spring, when eight in ten Republicans had a favorable view of her."

Just a scratch, not hemorrhaging.

But my point was that by calling zombie delusional, you are saying not that you disagree, but that zombie is not a worthy opponent. And I wonder why you would think that.

370 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:02:28pm

re: #354 Shiplord Kirel

Barking moonbats...

Now correct me if I'm wrong but, there is no legal mechanism for a President to declare martial law in the United States. As I understand it, it can only be done at a state or local level and only under conditions in which civil courts are incapable of operating.

371 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:02:33pm

re: #364 Walter L. Newton

That poll has nothing to do with Sarah Palin's favorability numbers!

372 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:02:39pm

re: #272 Cato the Elder

Bimbo = gum-snapping cheerleader type who was told early on that a flirty wink and perky tits would take her places no brainy girl could hope to go. She's been workin' it ever since.

Oh yeah, keep defending the misogynistic derogatory remarks there Cato, it seems to be working.
/

373 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:02:59pm

Can anyone confirm this? I heard that the "Bill" - in whatever form, will not take effect until 2013. True? If so and it is a complete disaster, it will not be fodder for the 2012 election.

374 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:03:13pm

re: #368 albusteve

Cato's just envious of her perky boobs

Or...Misses the little walks to WOOD SHED!!
LOL
I like CATO ...!

375 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:03:49pm

re: #361 HoosierHoops

You are being very unfair Cato..
1st off.. She wasn't a bimbo cheerleader type.. She was the starting Point Guard of a championship High school Basketball team. Normally the smartest person on the floor is the PG.
and talking about her perky tits is very unbecoming to judge character and talent.


haha, well said, you being a point guard and all heh heh

376 voirdire  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:03:52pm

re: #60 Ward Cleaver

They may not be pressured to die, but they may feel pressured to. Anybody who has parents that are very elderly (my mom is almost 90) will know what I'm talking about.

No one really wants to admit the bit of truth that Palin exposes with her hyperbole. The reason for the counsel is that seniors tend to give up or refuse additional medicines after counseling, thus saving money. Look how effective "family planning" counseling is.

377 iLikeCandy  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:03:59pm

I come late to this discussion, but what the hell.

Probably because her first statement about “death panels” was such a resounding political success, Sarah Palin is doubling down on the euthanasia card in her latest post at Facebook:

Alternative interpretatioin: Because her first statement about "death panels" was so effective that seniors nationwide are expressing their discomfort and Obama himself has been obligated to answer back, Sarah is continuing the fight.

These consultations are authorized whenever a Medicare recipient’s health changes significantly or when they enter a nursing home, and they are part of a bill whose stated purpose is “to reduce the growth in health care spending.” [5] Is it any wonder that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care?

It's no wonder at all. Read some of the usually liberal commentators she quoted who back her up on this.

I think I need some more ibuprofen. I’m getting a distortion headache, with fear-mongering sinus infection.

You seem to think that the big push for government-administered health care is about improving our health. Nothing could be further from the truth.

zombie, I'd vote for Palin. She doesn't know everything, but I'd trust her to appoint and rely on good people. I wouldn't even be surprised if she asked Rudy to be her veep. Dream ticket for me.

378 J.S.  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:04:05pm

re: #358 Kenneth

(I tended to believe that this was an over-the-top reaction because she's a mother of a handicapped child...not that long ago, here in Alberta, there was a big fuss with respect to not allowing mentally handicapped children to be allowed/placed on the heart transplantation list...apparently, many Down's syndrome children have heart defects, but some physicians, hospitals, etc. don't consider them good recipients for heart transplantation...I believe this was a stated policy here until it became public -- now, iirc, the policy has been changed, somewhat...)

379 aggieann  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:04:14pm

re: #341 HoosierHoops

Gunner...:)
I'm practicing my politician talk.. I won't answer a direct question with a direct answer. Practice makes perfect

Here you go . . . How to Field Questions Like President Obama

[Link: www.esquire.com...]

380 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #354 Shiplord Kirel

I really hate that sort of alarmism. The public health circumstances that would lead to a declaration of martial law are something like a smallpox outbreak. Given our system, though, even then it's wildly unlikely we'd have a declaration of martial law.

381 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:04:52pm

re: #373 Creeping Eruption

Can anyone confirm this? I heard that the "Bill" - in whatever form, will not take effect until 2013. True? If so and it is a complete disaster, it will not be fodder for the 2012 election.

(4) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made by this subsection shall apply to consultations furnished on or after January 1, 2011.

382 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:04:54pm

re: #367 Sharmuta

These numbers are from before her “death panels” comments, so well see if the downward trend line continues. My guess is it will, as people who staunchly defended her last fall are now walking away in greater and greater numbers.

A year ago a negative Palin comment got you AnneFranced... now you might break even or go green on it.

383 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:05:07pm

re: #363 Thanos

The big dogs aren't even really playing yet, that's over forty months away. Worrying about something forty months or more away is not good for us, we better focus here and now.

ohmmm
I just don't like the looks of the GOP for the past few years...just the fact that they don't vote straight up against BOs legislation irritates the hell out of me...I'm strict about that stuff

384 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:05:10pm

I think it's worse that the President of the United States would blatantly lie about what doctors are reimbursed for procedures, or that he would claim a pediatrician would take out a child's tonsils for money(surgeons remove tonsils). Or he is just dumb?

385 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:05:13pm

re: #367 Sharmuta

These numbers are from before her “death panels” comments, so well see if the downward trend line continues. My guess is it will, as people who staunchly defended her last fall are now walking away in greater and greater numbers.

But again, that's not what I was asking. I was asking, in a putative scenario that presumes she gets the nomination, how would LGFers vote?

I could not vote for Obama, for innumerable reasons.
I don't want to waste my vote on a random third-party candidate.
I don't want to opt out of democracy by refusing to vote.
Hence, I would indeed vote for Palin, even though I disagree with some of her positions.

No politician is perfect, We must choose from among a list of imperfect options. In the above putative scenario, how would you vote?

386 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:06:03pm

re: #373 Creeping Eruption

Can anyone confirm this? I heard that the "Bill" - in whatever form, will not take effect until 2013. True? If so and it is a complete disaster, it will not be fodder for the 2012 election.


thats correct

387 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:06:07pm

re: #381 Thanos

Huh. Wonder what the person was talking about.

388 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:07:00pm

re: #354 Shiplord Kirel

I knew we had heard from this nutburger Broun before:
And Now, Black Helicopter Republicans (LGF 11-10-08)

Well, we’ve had eight years of loony left Bush Derangement Syndrome, so I guess it’s time for the loony right to get their derangement on: Georgia congressman warns of Obama dictatorship.
389 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:07:03pm

re: #361 HoosierHoops

You are being very unfair Cato..
1st off.. She wasn't a bimbo cheerleader type.. She was the starting Point Guard of a championship High school Basketball team. Normally the smartest person on the floor is the PG.
and talking about her perky pert tits is very unbecoming to judge character and talent.


That is the proper adjective. FTFY

390 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:07:05pm

re: #374 reloadingisnotahobby

Or...Misses the little walks to WOOD SHED!!
LOL
I like CATO ...!

I do to...I just keep my distance

391 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:07:06pm

re: #324 Kenneth

Well yes, Palin could use some better communications skills. That's pretty clear by now. But by my reading, her central point in this essay is that the Democratic plan will lead to service rationing and a loss of choice for patients. Wiser phrasing could have emphasized that point more.

But my point is that she and her consultants/speechwriters chose such inflammatory hysterical rhetoric deliberately. Not that they don't know how to communicate, but this is what they mean to communicate. This kind of fear mongering is the only thing Sarah Palin can offer as commentary on the bill, because she lacks a firm grasp of the actual issues, so reducing the argument to populist nonsense -- her natural environment -- plays to her advantage.

That's not to say she has thought through the long-term consequences of this behavior.

392 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:07:07pm

re: #381 Thanos

(4) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made by this subsection shall apply to consultations furnished on or after January 1, 2011.

re: #386 apachegunner

thats correct


Now I am confused.

393 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:07:15pm

re: #342 Alouette

A right-wing blogger who continued to hotlink an image from my server after being asked not to do so has been pwn3d.

You could also report that blog to AdSense for begging for clicks.

394 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:07:24pm

re: #385 zombie

My candidate got shipped to China.

395 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:07:36pm

I've been repulsed by the right's handling of the healthcare debate. However...
New Gallup poll shows town hall protests winning over independents?

Rasmussen: GOP now more trusted on health care than Democrats
...it seems to be working. I'll give them credit for that.

396 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:08:06pm

re: #250 swampleg

Sorry Charlie ... I am disappointed in you.

Somehow I'll try to carry on, Swampy.

With Islamists you have an ability to see beyond what they say and look at the implications of what they are doing. With regard to our putative health care planners in our own Congress, you appear to take what they say at face value and seem unable to either project forward and look at the implications of what they doing or look underneath their shallow rhetoric about the plan. Even liberals such as Mickey Kaus and Camile Paglia are able to look at the economic implications of the health care reform bill and see that there is something to be concerned about with regard to these cost effectiveness panels and the government's cost containment objectives and something to the concerns that Governor Palin highlights.

You must have missed the many threads at LGF where we've discussed substantial, valid criticisms of the health care bill. Yesterday's thread about "what question would you ask" was great. Lots of real points made, and valid questions.

No "death panels" or euthanasia.

So Charlie, step back, take a breath and ask yourself if what Governor Palin predicting really that far out of the experience of what the other first world countries have experienced with regard to rationing and euthanasia?

OK, I took a breath. Yes, it's blatant fear mongering, and there's nothing in the current bill under consideration that warrants that description.

397 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:08:06pm

Euthanasia in the Netherlands

In 1991, in an effort to come to grips with the actual medical practice of euthanasia and assisted suicide, the Dutch Government established a government commission, headed by Professor Jan Remmelink to study the problem. The Remmelink Report opened the eyes of both the people of the Netherlands and the world to the extent of the practice of euthanasia in Holland. Remmelink found that 49,000 of the 130,000 deaths in the Netherlands each year were not natural but involved a "medical decision at the end of life" or MDEL. 95% of these MDEL cases involve, in equal numbers, either withholding treatment/discontinuing life support or the alleviation of pain and symptoms through medication that might hasten death. This latter (alleviating pain and symptoms) category accounted for approx. 20,000 deaths that had been hastened by a physicians decision. Actual euthanasia, using the official Dutch definition, occurred in 2,300 cases or 2% of all Dutch deaths. Dutch physicians helped 400 patients who requested suicide, for either mental illness or discomfort, to kill themselves in 1990. The alarming statistics of the Remmelink Report indicate that in thousands of cases decisions that might or were intended to end a fully competent patient's life were made without consulting the patient.

Over 50% of Dutch physicians admitted to practicing euthanasia, most often on cancer patients. Only 60% kept written records of their euthanasia practice and only 29% filled out death certificates honestly in euthanasia cases.

In 1996 a second report on euthanasia in Holland (for 1995) was published. In the interim the number of cases where a doctor had made a decision with the intention to hasten death without the patients express request had risen from 15% to almost 20% of the total annual mortality rate of the Netherlands. At the same time, the number of cases of euthanasia, using the narrow Dutch definition, rose from 2,300 to over 3000, a 30% increase in just 5 years.

"If the patient is aged between 12 - 18, his or her legal representatives are involved in the decision making. If one of them cannot agree with the termination of life, the patients request is not granted, unless he keeps requesting and his termination of life is well-considered and the emergency situation does not permit delaying the termination of life according to the doctor's judgement."

Canadian professor of law and medicine at McGill University, Margaret Somerville, has said "…strict guidelines or no, legalized euthanasia has less to do with "unbearable suffering" than with institutionalizing murder in the medical profession." This is precisely what has happened in the Netherlands.

In 30 years Holland has moved from assisted suicide to euthanasia, from euthanasia of people who are terminally ill to euthanasia of those who are chronically ill, from euthanasia for physical illness to euthanasia for mental illness, from euthanasia for mental illness to euthanasia for psychological distress or mental suffering, and from voluntary euthanasia to involuntary euthanasia or as the Dutch prefer to call it "termination of the patient without explicit request".

It is now considered a form of discrimination against the chronically ill to deny them assisted death because they will be forced to suffer longer than those who are terminally ill and it is considered bias to force endurance of psychological pain when it is not associated with physical illness. The next step, non-voluntary euthanasia, is then justified by appealing to our social duty to care for patients who are not competent to choose for themselves.

398 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:08:10pm

re: #380 Dianna

I really hate that sort of alarmism. The public health circumstances that would lead to a declaration of martial law are something like a smallpox outbreak. Given our system, though, even then it's wildly unlikely we'd have a declaration of martial law.

Two words: "Hurricane Katrina". That's the model for what it would take to have martial law imposed anywhere.

399 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:08:10pm

re: #384 kansas

I THINK HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE'S DOING!!!
He has no problem with flat out lying!!
Case in point?
His denial of supporting Single Payer!!

400 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:08:11pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

I've been repulsed by the right's handling of the healthcare debate. However...
New Gallup poll shows town hall protests winning over independents?

Rasmussen: GOP now more trusted on health care than Democrats
...it seems to be working. I'll give them credit for that.

Worked for the Democrats.

401 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:08:27pm

re: #394 Sharmuta

My candidate got shipped to China.

Obama "took care of" that problem.

402 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:08:45pm

re: #383 albusteve

ohmmm
I just don't like the looks of the GOP for the past few years...just the fact that they don't vote straight up against BOs legislation irritates the hell out of me...I'm strict about that stuff

It's an off election year, everyone serious in the Republican party has just fought 8 long years of slog through hell. You can bet they are taking most of this year as retrospect, planning, and vacation. The Dems own all the problems now, it's somewhat liberating for awhile. The big dogs will be back soon.

403 yochanan  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:09:04pm

rationed care already exists
if you really think if you don't have ins. your going to get the same care as some one has gold plated care like our congress critters i got a bridge for sale BABY.

I DON'T KNOW WHY SOME SEEM TO THINK WHAT PALIN SAYS ON THIS IS SO ODD since it already exists right now.

HMO'S have been rationing care since the concept was founded.
V.A. also does it.
and private ins. offen doesn't cover everything as well not to mention the whole prexisting condition form of rationing care.

404 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:09:23pm

Fear mongering is bad. Targeting the elderly and exploiting their fears is even worse. That is the practice of scum-bags, scam artists and con-men.

405 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:09:28pm

Notwithstanding hyperbole, it looks like the Senate Finance Committee has euthanized the end-of-life provision in their version of the healthcare bill.

Finance Committee to drop end-of-life provision
By Michael O'Brien
Posted: 08/13/09 02:21 PM [ET]

The Senate Finance Committee will drop a controversial provision on consultations for end-of-life care from its proposed healthcare bill, its top Republican member said Thursday.

The committee, which has worked on putting together a bipartisan healthcare reform bill, will drop the controversial provision after it was derided by conservatives as "death panels" to encourage euthanasia.

"On the Finance Committee, we are working very hard to avoid unintended consequences by methodically working through the complexities of all of these issues and policy options," Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) said in a statement. "We dropped end-of-life provisions from consideration entirely because of the way they could be misinterpreted and implemented incorrectly."

The Finance Committee is the only congressional committee not to report out a preliminary healthcare bill before the August congressional recess, but is expected to unveil its proposal shortly after Labor Day.

Grassley said that bill would hold up better compared to proposals crafted in the House, which he asserted were "poorly cobbled together."

"The bill passed by the House committees is so poorly cobbled together that it will have all kinds of unintended consequences, including making taxpayers fund healthcare subsidies for illegal immigrants," Grassley said. The veteran Iowa lawmaker said the end-of-life provision in those bills would pay physicians to "advise patients about end-of-life care and rate physician quality of care based on the creation of and adherence to orders for end-of-life care.

"Maybe others can defend a bill like the Pelosi bill that leaves major issues open to interpretation, but I can't," Grassley added.

406 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:09:30pm

re: #384 kansas

It's an interesting play on the sneaky notion - held by a lot of people on some level - that doctors are greedy.

407 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:09:33pm

re: #399 reloadingisnotahobby

I THINK HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE'S DOING!!!
He has no problem with flat out lying!!
Case in point?
His denial of supporting Single Payer!!

I liked the two videsos side by side where he denies it in one and supports it in the other. Hey, look over there it's , Sarah Palin, no it's Rush Limbo...

408 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:09:42pm

re: #402 Thanos

It's an off election year, everyone serious in the Republican party has just fought 8 long years of slog through hell. You can bet they are taking most of this year as retrospect, planning, and vacation. The Dems own all the problems now, it's somewhat liberating for awhile. The big dogs will be back soon.

I'll be waiting...
with my pitchfork

409 haavamaal  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:09:43pm

While I certainly think the terminology "death panel" is pretty misleading; there is sufficient wording in the bill to indicate that health care rationing would result in the early termination of people with certain problems, especially those who are older with chronic conditions.

Here is a short section by section analysis.

Short Health Care Bill Analysis

410 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:09:45pm

re: #392 Creeping Eruption

Now I am confused.


I believe when the bill is signed it will take full effect in 2014

411 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:10:20pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

I've been repulsed by the right's handling of the healthcare debate. However...
New Gallup poll shows town hall protests winning over independents?

Rasmussen: GOP now more trusted on health care than Democrats
...it seems to be working. I'll give them credit for that.

I found that odd as well when I saw it in the spinoff links this morning. I've been repulsed by the shouting, and I'd assumed others would be as well. Maybe this is a case of bad and worse though. As bad as the Republicans have been with the shouting, maybe the Democrats are just that much worse on presentation?

412 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:10:35pm

O.T.
Holly shit!LOL
I don't now what's goin on in court today...but a Judge just walked by my office mumbling loudly to himself!
He's PISSED!
I thought he was on his cell...
LOL

413 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:10:36pm

re: #401 ArchangelMichael

Obama "took care of" that problem.

He sure did. It's unlikely a moderate like Huntsman would win either, but he was who I liked and I'm sure his potential played a role in his appointment.

414 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:10:56pm

re: #406 Dianna

It's an interesting play on the sneaky notion - held by a lot of people on some level - that doctors are greedy.

Yeah, if they could get 50 grand to amputate a foot, and then another 50 for a prosthetic, yeeehaw, new yacht baby.

415 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:11:06pm

re: #396 Charles

May I hazard an observation. I, too, deplore the fear mongering. But, in a sense it serves a purpose--it has spurred more serious and thoughtful discussions. People have been roused from their lethargy by fear and are trying to educate themselves. In a sense, this is a good thing. Sometimes humans need to be made afraid in order for them to take something seriously.

416 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:11:11pm

re: #398 calcajun

Two words: "Hurricane Katrina". That's the model for what it would take to have martial law imposed anywhere.

I know.

It's nearly impossible even to institute a curfew over more than a city. Try to imagine what would be necessary to impel the federal government to ask all 50 governors to declare martial law!

417 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:11:20pm

re: #394 Sharmuta

My candidate got shipped to China.

Do you mean Utah Governor Jon Huntsman, named ambassador to China recently? Or...?

418 GGMac  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:11:37pm

re: #46 KingKenrod

I posted this in the overnight thread:
Mickey Kaus, writing for notorius right-wing hate site Slate.com, points out that Obama kinda sorta maybe endorsed the idea of a kinda sorta maybe non-binding panel that kinda sorta maybe might be construed as a death panel. By some people.

[Link: www.slate.com...]

I think the purpose of these panels is not to make death decisions, but to make the hard decisions politicians don't want to be blamed for. Where these groups go in the future is anybody's guess.

Your reference was quoting Obama statements made in April. On June 24th, during the ABC health care infomercial, Obama responded to the question of taking into account an elderly woman's 'will to live' in relation to the expediency of giving her a pacemaker, with this:

"I don't think that we can make judgments based on people's spirit. Uh, that would be, uh, a pretty subjective decision to be making. I think we have to have rules that, uh, say we are gonna provide good quality care for all people."

"END-OF-LIFE CARE IS ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT SETS OF DECISIONS THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE"
(snip)
At least WE can let doctors know - and your mom know - that you know what? Maybe this isn't going to help. Maybe you're better off, uh, not having the surgery, but taking, uhhh, the painkiller."

"WE", and, "...decisions that WE're going to have to make", is not in reference to ourselves/our families/our doctors. He's talking about the government, and the "difficult sets of decisions" the government is going to have to make.

If he didn't mean the government - there would be absolutely no reason for him to say "WE". He would have said "you", "your family", "your doctor".

Bottom line: government pays, government sets the goalposts.
No, there won't be "black helicopters", or "death squads" - or even "death panels".

There WILL be a looseleaf notebook distributed to each and every "participant" in national health care (hospital, doctors, social services entities, etc.), which will contain every rule, every regulation, and every procedure of administration. And those procedures will include the verbal procedure for every possible scenario relating to each physical illness and impairment for every age group. And it will have a section particular to the "problems" relating to the end-of-life scenarios.

Anyone who has ever worked for a government-funded entity knows from where I speak, and knows it to be the truth.

Everyone else - EVERYone else, would be prudent to re-read the above quote of Obama's statements (and the Kausfiles link) and realize that everything he says must be carefully and thoughtfully parsed.

link: [Link: www.printthis.clickability.com...]

419 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:11:57pm

re: #410 apachegunner

I believe when the bill is signed it will take full effect in 2014

The 2011 date I posted is from the draft section of the house version most likely to get out of committee - it's from the section that's under discussion here. Other provisions in the bill could enact at later dates.

420 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:12:12pm

re: #345 Thanos

Indeed! Is this why some Congressional DEM Reps are not holding health Care THs, or having them with short notice (SJ "I am on MY Phone" Lee), or holding them in out of District at SEIU head quarters (NY)?

By Jove, I think you've got it!

421 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:12:19pm

re: #397 Kenneth

Euthanasia in the Netherlands


Anyone know how this is developing in Oregon? (if it is)

422 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:12:22pm

re: #398 calcajun

One 5 or 6 0n the Richter scale here in the west would
nicely! If that's something to look foeward too...
Just sayin!

423 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:12:38pm

re: #397 Kenneth

Euthanasia in the Netherlands

Very interesting and eye-opening link. Thanks.

424 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:12:50pm

re: #412 reloadingisnotahobby

O.T.
Holly shit!LOL
I don't now what's goin on in court today...but a Judge just walked by my office mumbling loudly to himself!
He's PISSED!
I thought he was on his cell...
LOL

I think somebody, either a person in his courtroom or a lawyer, is begging for a contempt of court charge when he gets back.

425 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:13:43pm

re: #413 Sharmuta

He sure did. It's unlikely a moderate like Huntsman would win either, but he was who I liked and I'm sure his potential played a role in his appointment.

Ah, OK.

Maybe he'll come back from China in time to run.

426 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:13:54pm

re: #424 Honorary Yooper

I think somebody, either a person in his courtroom or a lawyer, is begging for a contempt of court charge when he gets back.

Or one of his decisions was just overturned on appeal?

427 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:14:17pm

re: #378 J.S.

That is true. Heart defects are common among people with Downs Syndrome. This is the point Palin and others should be making: under socialized medicine, their will be enormous pressure to keep costs down. This will be accomplished by rationing services. The choice of who gets these services will be made by medical boards or other similar panels. You don't want to call them "death panels"? Fine. But they will be making life and death decisions. What kind of direction from the gov't will these panels be getting on how to make those decisions?

President Obama's advisers have already spoken out about that, and it is chilling.

428 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:14:18pm

re: #418 GGMac

"I don't think that we can make judgments based on people's spirit. Uh, that would be, uh, a pretty subjective decision to be making. I think we have to have rules that, uh, say we are gonna provide good quality care for all people."

What in the world is wrong with that? Why would you want anyone to be making decisions based on some mystical magical ability to read their "spirit?" What does that even mean? Who can judge whether one person wants to live more than another?

Why is that statement supposed to be so outrageous?

429 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:14:33pm

re: #411 Honorary Yooper

As bad as the Republicans have been with the shouting, maybe the Democrats are just that much worse on presentation?


Maybe. I think Obama has done a poor job of informing the public on what's in his plan and how it's going to work. I also suspect that a lot of people believe in the death panels and other misinformation.

430 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:14:55pm

re: #417 zombie

Gotta be...
Up until yesterday...He was my boss!

431 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:15:08pm

re: #419 Thanos

The 2011 date I posted is from the draft section of the house version most likely to get out of committee - it's from the section that's under discussion here. Other provisions in the bill could enact at later dates.


Thanks, I'll check further. Done want an eruption or nuttin right?

432 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:15:24pm

No one is talking about how to resolve the $38 trillion Medicare unfunded liability, which is at the center of this controversy. Any ideas, Lizards?

433 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:15:38pm

re: #431 apachegunner

Thanks, I'll check further. Done want an eruption or nuttin right?

Right

434 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:15:50pm

re: #424 Honorary Yooper

Just got the "wus up"... Family feud with 1.5 M in play!!

435 doppelganglander  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:16:09pm

re: #420 Picayune

Indeed! Is this why some Congressional DEM Reps are not holding health Care THs, or having them with short notice (SJ "I am on MY Phone" Lee), or holding them in out of District at SEIU head quarters (NY)?

By Jove, I think you've got it!


Roadblocks Devised to Push Back Against Health Care Town Hall Protesters

Supporters of health reform say they are simply pushing back against opposition that is disruptive and designed to shut down debate while opponents say the tactics are underhanded and intended to undermine democracy in action.

[snip]

In Illinois, two Republican lawmakers sent a letter to Obama this week complaining that Democratic organizers scheduled meetings between them and their constituents without ever notifying them, misleading their constituents into going to town halls on the wrong day.

Illinois Reps. Mark Kirk and Judy Biggert wrote that their constituents had apparently signed up for meetings to discuss health care reform with them after receiving an Aug. 9 e-mail from BarackObama.com urging them to do so.

"However, the names of our constituents and the times they wished to visit were never communicated to us," the letter said.

As a result, the lawmakers claimed more than 20 constituents came to their district offices on Monday.

"When they learned neither the White House, the Democratic National Committee nor Organizing for America had passed their request to our offices, they were understandably confused and upset with the BarackObama.com e-mail they had received," they wrote.

They urged the organizers not to keep them in the dark in the future.

436 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:16:33pm

re: #434 reloadingisnotahobby

Just got the "wus up"... Family feud with 1.5 M in play!!

His family, or is he in family court?

437 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:16:34pm

re: #422 reloadingisnotahobby

One 5 or 6 0n the Richter scale here in the west would
nicely! If that's something to look foeward too...
Just sayin!


I'd say something right now but don't want to make the california lizards feel bad.

438 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:16:47pm

re: #426 Creeping Eruption

District Court...
Not an appealate!

439 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:17:01pm

re: #432 quickjustice

No one is talking about how to resolve the $38 trillion Medicare unfunded liability, which is at the center of this controversy. Any ideas, Lizards?

or tort reform
kill the bill

440 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:17:25pm

re: #403 yochanan

I will dispute it.

My dear friend who died in 2006 had no insurance. He received immediate and massive intervention for his cancer. It happened to be too late to save him, but he got it.

For the record, his lack of insurance didn't kill him. Starting his own business, working 12 and 14 hour days, and ignoring his symptoms (putting them down to being exhausted and eating badly) are what killed him.

441 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:17:26pm

re: #423 zombie

I recall an news item from a few years back wherein some people in Holland were advocating "unrequested euthanasia" for babies born with severe medical disabilities. Sounds like 4th trimester abortions to me. It is evil.

442 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:17:27pm
443 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:17:43pm

bbl

444 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:17:44pm

re: #373 Creeping Eruption

Can anyone confirm this? I heard that the "Bill" - in whatever form, will not take effect until 2013. True? If so and it is a complete disaster, it will not be fodder for the 2012 election.

The taxes needed to pay for it will start in 2010. That's why the first decade of implementation doesn't appear to be so expensive.

445 jill e  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:17:47pm

re: #421 eschew_obfuscation

Anyone know how this is developing in Oregon? (if it is)

Ask Barbara Wagner.

446 Cato  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:18:13pm

re: #33 Charles

What Palin addresses, however hyperbolically, is the fact that government intervention into health care wherein it is guaranteed to all citizens (and non-citizens for that matter) CONVERTS ASSETS INTO LIABILITIES, producers of income to the government to cost centers. Like it or not Charles, this is the fundamental problem and one that cannot be addressed without at least a thought experiment into its logical conclusion.

447 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:18:47pm

re: #432 quickjustice

No one is talking about how to resolve the $38 trillion Medicare unfunded liability, which is at the center of this controversy. Any ideas, Lizards?

Ummm, how bout we tax the rich? They have too much money anyway.
//

448 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:19:46pm

re: #403 yochanan

There is a problem with saying "rationed health care already exists." (Which is true, don't get me wrong.) With the system now, if your HMO or PPO tells you to pound sound you can always, if you can afford to do so, go have whatever you need done privately and pay for on your own. That's not always ideal. Many cant afford to do so. Regardless I want that option to remain.

If, to play to Palin's moonbattery for a second, some spooky panel tells me "no you cant have that procedure" I want to have the option for private recourse. If I can pay for it on my own I will. If I need help from my family, they will give it. If it means I have to go on Oprah and beg for donations to The Save ArchangelMichael Foundation to pay for it, then I will.

Any "reform" which makes this impossible, either directly by banning private practice, or indirectly via oppressive taxation or driving the costs of private health care up beyond the means of anyone poorer than Bill Gates, I will oppose, vehemently.

449 Cato  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #428 Charles


Because she got the pacemaker and lived at least 5 good years!! Obama told her, basically, that she would not have gotten it under his system.

450 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:20:22pm

Palin dropping the "death panel" bomb is about as outrageous as Obama calling the February boondoggle "The Reinvestment and Recovery Act".

/That's a joke, kinda

451 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:20:33pm

re: #428 Charles

Surgeon make a call like this everyday..and has nothing to do with the patients will to live!
Are they a good candidate ( will they benifit)ffrom the opp...
Some times 50/50 isn't good enough odd.!

452 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:20:45pm

re: #428 Charles

What in the world is wrong with that? Why would you want anyone to be making decisions based on some mystical magical ability to read their "spirit?" What does that even mean? Who can judge whether one person wants to live more than another?

Why is that statement supposed to be so outrageous?

Well after having spent some time in a nursing home watching my mother die of dementia, you can have two 83 year olds both in need of a hip replacement, one who doesn't know who she is, where she is, and can't feed herself, and another who is alert able to do do all those things. One gets the hip, the other doesn't. One size fits all does not work.

453 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:20:53pm

re: #429 Killgore Trout

Maybe. I think Obama has done a poor job of informing the public on what's in his plan and how it's going to work. I also suspect that a lot of people believe in the death panels and other misinformation.

He is trying to do this too fast and that scares the crap out of people. Let's have a real healthcare debate and solve this problem we all have...let's not jump into this for political points or any other reason other than it's the right thing to do. Announcing he will get this passed without the support of the Republicans made it even worse. This is an issue that effects everyone, not just the 52% of the electorate.

454 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:20:56pm

re: #428 Charles

The way things are going, we may have to require everyone to wear those "MedicAlert" metal bracelets that have important medical info on them for emergency workers to see.

For example, I have an elderly relative who has allergies to certain medicines and who doesn't want her organs donated. She also has passed out due to blood pressure problems. She now wears an official bracelet tag with instructions on what medicines she cannot take and what to do with her organs -- in case she falls into a coma, is unconscious, or dies.

If everybody had such bracelets, there wouldn't be so much uncertainly. People could say "Revive at all costs" or "Don't unplug me bro!" or, alternately, "Do not revive" or "No extraordinary measures to keep me going, please." That way, no one has to guess about each patient's intent or wishes.

455 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:20:58pm

re: #415 calcajun

That's interesting, and I'll think about it. But I also think that we're seeing that thing I've been complaining about, that these days, we're constantly bombarded with panics and crises. As if we can't be brought to pay attention unless it's a crisis.

456 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:21:00pm

re: #116 Cato the Elder

When she's (politically) dead with a (splintery political) stake through her heart, maybe.

I don't enjoy your imagery. Employing terms like these even with parentheses shows your intent.

Were I to name another national figure (which Palin is, private citizen status notwithstanding) and write "When he's (politically) dead with a (splodey political) bullet through his head, maybe" I would sound as though I were advocating violence.

457 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:21:06pm

re: #384 kansas

Yes.

458 yochanan  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:21:31pm

re: #440 Dianna

well i know what my ;problems with health care are. the reason he waited to late for correct care more than likely is because he did have ins. the case really does prove my point. lots of sick people can't afford to pay for ins. after they get ill. or the ill. is considered a pre existing condition .

459 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:21:41pm

re: #389 calcajun

That is the proper adjective. FTFY

Um, isn't that a shampoo also?

460 jill e  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:21:46pm

re: #441 Kenneth

I recall an news item from a few years back wherein some people in Holland were advocating "unrequested euthanasia" for babies born with severe medical disabilities. Sounds like 4th trimester abortions to me. It is evil.

They've debated "active euthanasia" in the UK.

461 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:21:52pm

re: #448 ArchangelMichael

Damn... "pound sand" P more than once IMF

462 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:21:53pm

re: #436 Creeping Eruption

Law suit between sibs on a very nice resort purchase near Bryce!

463 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:22:03pm

Tort reform would help, but the Democrats are in the pocket of the Trial Lawyers.

Given the deliberate shell game that Congress and the President are playing with proposed legislation, keeping the public in the dark, I'm reminded of Matthew Arnold's "Dover Beach":

"And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night."

464 doppelganglander  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:22:11pm

re: #435 doppelganglander

And there's more:

Health Care for America Now, a coalition group organizing support for Obama's proposal, e-mailed a four-page memo to activists across the country on how to provide "cover" to lawmakers at the town halls. The group, whose members include ACORN, the Service Employees International Union and the National Council of La Raza, urged activists to contact lawmakers before the town halls to plan ways to preempt opposition.

"Ask the member's staff what would be most helpful and talk through a strategy for making sure the right messages don't get drowned out by chaotic protesters," field director Margarida Jorge wrote.

"Address the [member of Congress] directly with a positive message: Remember, these members need cover and they are getting beaten up by right wing zealots in these meetings."

465 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:22:28pm

re: #453 Desert Dog

He is trying to do this too fast and that scares the crap out of people. Let's have a real healthcare debate and solve this problem we all have...let's not jump into this for political points or any other reason other than it's the right thing to do. Announcing he will get this passed without the support of the Republicans made it even worse. This is an issue that effects everyone, not just the 52% of the electorate.

he's obsessed, on a mission...it is a matter of principle to him, nothing more imo

466 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:22:45pm

re: #437 apachegunner

Careful Gunner...I'm close and family there!
LOL

467 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:22:48pm

re: #445 jill e

Ask Barbara Wagner.

Wonderful... I hope this isn't where the rest of the country is headed.

468 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:23:20pm

Dutch to set guidelines for euthanasia of babies
Doctors could end lives of terminally ill newborns with parents' consent

469 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:23:25pm

re: #446 Cato

What Palin addresses, however hyperbolically, is the fact that government intervention into health care wherein it is guaranteed to all citizens (and non-citizens for that matter) CONVERTS ASSETS INTO LIABILITIES, producers of income to the government to cost centers. Like it or not Charles, this is the fundamental problem and one that cannot be addressed without at least a thought experiment into its logical conclusion.

I am not a god-damned government asset. If that's your definition of "citizen", you are a statist/collectivist, no matter how you define yourself.

470 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:23:51pm

OK, gotta attend to life-duties. Toodle-oo!

471 psaturn  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:24:20pm

I just wanted to put my two cents on Sarah's comments on Death Camp. It seems to me she is speaking to certain group of people and they are receiving it.

I do appreciate the comments here and helps me see how different people react.

Zombie is quite correct that the nationalized health care inevitably leads to rationing of health care.

There is already push for early "death" even now. I have encountered first hand with several friends who were "pushed" to pull the plug. One friend refused to pull the plug on his daughter who was hit head on by a car and fell into a coma and the doctors had no hope for her. The doctors were actually ready to harvest her organs for transplants. After a long period of time, this young gal now a young woman came out ALIVE!!

472 doppelganglander  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:24:45pm

re: #454 zombie

I think it's a good idea to have that information in your medical records, with a copy to a trusted friend or relative. I can't see people agreeing to wear bracelets. This is a country where we don't even allow national ID cards.

473 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:24:45pm

re: #453 Desert Dog

He is trying to do this too fast and that scares the crap out of people.

The speed doesn't bother me as much as the timing. I wouldn't mind regulation reform for insurance and pharmaceuticals but I really don't think now is the time to add public option until the recession is over with. It would also help if they fixed medicare and social security to show that these government run programs can work.

474 Hawaii69  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:24:53pm

re: #3 doppelganglander

Some people do not know how to quit when they're behind.

She's at about 14:58, in her 15 minutes of fame.

Of course, any attention is good attention.

She's going nowhere in poltics, but maybe Glenn Beck will take her on as a co-host...

475 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:24:58pm

re: #446 Cato

What Palin addresses, however hyperbolically, is the fact that government intervention into health care wherein it is guaranteed to all citizens (and non-citizens for that matter) CONVERTS ASSETS INTO LIABILITIES, producers of income to the government to cost centers. Like it or not Charles, this is the fundamental problem and one that cannot be addressed without at least a thought experiment into its logical conclusion.

re: #469 Cato the Elder

I am not a god-damned government asset. If that's your definition of "citizen", you are a statist/collectivist, no matter how you define yourself.

This is like a scene from "Face-Off."

476 JohninLondon  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:24:58pm

Whatever people may say of Palin, what other leading GOP figure has drawn attention to the implications of healthcare rationing by some Government-run organisation ?

We have a lot of that already in Britain's NHS. The "panels" that dictate what is and is not proper procedure and medical protocol come under the "NICE" heading - our National Institute for ...Clinical Excellence". They lay down an awful lot of groundrules for doctors :

[Link: www.nice.org.uk...]

Trouble is - the groundrules are very much impacted by the need for economy in use of resources. For example, a lot of cardiac procedures are not favoured for older people with particular complications. There is much splendid theorising about why this rationing is "better for the patient...their prognosis would not be good enough to justify the risk of operating..." - but my cardiologist daughter has just co-authored a paper showing that denial of such procedures is often wrong, because the "risks" are overstated. That is -0 rationing in this way condemns many people to die because they are not given the procedures that could improve their condition.

From over here, Palin's statements taken in the round may include some hyperbole, but the topics she raises should have been discussed well before this. All this pilin'onPalin looks exaggerated.

477 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:25:03pm

re: #470 zombie

OK, gotta attend to life-duties. Toodle-oo!

"Toodle-oo, go with God, and don't take any wooden nickels."

478 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:25:09pm

re: #429 Killgore Trout

Maybe. I think Obama has done a poor job of informing the public on what's in his plan and how it's going to work. I also suspect that a lot of people believe in the death panels and other misinformation.

It must be our fault that we don't understand Obama's message.

479 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:25:18pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

I am not a god-damned government asset. If that's your definition of "citizen", you are a statist/collectivist, no matter how you define yourself.

well said Cato...my exact attitude

480 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:25:18pm

re: #434 reloadingisnotahobby

Just got the "wus up"... Family feud with 1.5 M in play!!

Everyone should play nice and take half. Otherwise, it's all going to vanish in lawyer fees.

481 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:25:36pm

re: #460 jill e

It is indeed a slippery slope. How far down that slope do we want to go, folks? Who do you want to make that decision for you?

482 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:25:38pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder
Sure you are!!
Your a "Revenue Generator"!!!
Silly Cato!

483 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:25:46pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

Unarmed, you are a Subject. ARMED, you are a CITIZEN.

484 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:25:49pm

Palin is irrelevant.

There will be no more elections in the US.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

485 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:26:04pm

re: #466 reloadingisnotahobby

Careful Gunner...I'm close and family there!
LOL

yes, I thought of that reload

486 HippieforLife  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:26:15pm

Hey, she is a private citizen now. Unlike Nancy Pelosi "protesters are un-American or Harry Reid - protesters are "evil mongering".

Those who don't like her should just be happy she is no longer an elected official.

We need to worry more about the current elected officials.

487 Elcid  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:26:40pm
Youtube Video
489 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:26:43pm

re: #388 Shiplord Kirel

I knew we had heard from this nutburger Broun before:
And Now, Black Helicopter Republicans (LGF 11-10-08)

Well from reading that we should be happy in a "it's not the worst that could have happened" with Gov. Rick Perry's appointee to TX Chair State board of education.

AUSTIN — State Board of Education member Cynthia Dunbar isn’t backing down from her claim that Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is plotting with terrorists to attack the U.S.

The Texas Freedom Network, a watchdog group that monitors the board, released a public statement on Monday asking Dunbar to retract the statement.

“I don’t have anything in there that would be retractable,” said Dunbar, R-Richmond. “Those are my personal opinions and I don’t think the language is questionable.”

In a column posted on the Christian Worldview Network Web site, Dunbar wrote that a terrorist attack on America during the first six months of an Obama administration “will be a planned effort by those with whom Obama truly sympathizes to take down the America that is threat to tyranny.”

She also suggests Obama would seek to expand his power by declaring martial law throughout the country.

490 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:26:48pm

re: #475 zombie

This is like a scene from "Face-Off."


PUT THE MIRROR DOWN ...
and return to your corners!!

491 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:26:49pm

re: #449 Cato

Because she got the pacemaker and lived at least 5 good years!! Obama told her, basically, that she would not have gotten it under his system.

He said absolutely no such thing.

Does anyone seriously think it would be a good idea to have a provision in the health care bill that says, "Physicians must take into account the patient's will to live?"

It's ridiculous. As Obama said, that's such a subjective judgment it simply makes no sense. How could you ask medical personnel to make decisions based on something like that?

492 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:26:59pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

I am not a god-damned government asset. If that's your definition of "citizen", you are a statist/collectivist, no matter how you define yourself.


your back huh, missed messing with the lizard heads huh?

493 Macker  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:27:05pm

re: #471 psaturn

I just wanted to put my two cents on Sarah's comments on Death Camp. It seems to me she is speaking to certain group of people and they are receiving it.

I do appreciate the comments here and helps me see how different people react.

Zombie is quite correct that the nationalized health care inevitably leads to rationing of health care.

There is already push for early "death" even now. I have encountered first hand with several friends who were "pushed" to pull the plug. One friend refused to pull the plug on his daughter who was hit head on by a car and fell into a coma and the doctors had no hope for her. The doctors were actually ready to harvest her organs for transplants. After a long period of time, this young gal now a young woman came out ALIVE!!

This is because he knew that GOD, not the doctors, and not the government, is the one who calls the shots and when to call a person home.

494 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:27:10pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

I am not a god-damned government asset. If that's your definition of "citizen", you are a statist/collectivist, no matter how you define yourself.

Getting out your angry disrespectful language now?

495 jill e  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:27:11pm

Excuse repost from Camille Paglia—still a big fan of Obama:

As a libertarian and refugee from the authoritarian Roman Catholic church of my youth, I simply do not understand the drift of my party toward a soulless collectivism. This is in fact what Sarah Palin hit on in her shocking image of a “death panel” under Obamacare that would make irrevocable decisions about the disabled and elderly. When I first saw that phrase, headlined on the Drudge Report, I burst out laughing. It seemed so over the top! But on reflection, I realized that Palin’s shrewdly timed metaphor spoke directly to the electorate’s unease with the prospect of shadowy, unelected government figures controlling our lives. A death panel not only has the power of life and death but is itself a symptom of a Kafkaesque brave new world where authority has become remote, arbitrary and spectral. And as in the Spanish Inquisition, dissidence is heresy, persecuted and punished.

496 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:27:54pm

re: #480 Dianna

If everything was that easy!
Hey! Works in the play ground! Right!

497 Hawaii69  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:28:04pm

re: #33 Charles

That's right! As soon as you turn 60, the Obama death squads are going to land on your roof in their black helicopters, rappel down the side of your building, kill you by withholding medical attention, then haul you off and throw you in a FEMA death camp. Then kill you again. Then brainwash you.


Black helicopters? I believe the politcally correct term is "African American Helicopters"

498 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:28:14pm

I did see something strange today on the streets of Manhattan.

Young emo hipster chick wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Broke is the New Black."

She must be from Kansas.

499 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:28:14pm

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Breaking: Finance Committee drops “death panel” provisions from Senate bill

Great! Discussion over.

Let's everybody cave in at once, and just pretend the issue doesn't even exist. I love politics.

500 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:28:27pm

re: #462 reloadingisnotahobby

Law suit between sibs on a very nice resort purchase near Bryce!

Always ugly.

501 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:28:27pm

And now, a Public Service Announcement from Megan Fox.

NSFW.

502 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:28:47pm

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Breaking: Finance Committee drops “death panel” provisions from Senate bill

But, but, but... (stutter... stutter... stutter) I thought there were no provisions (proposals?) in the bill that had anything to do with end of life?

I'm sooo confused.

503 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:29:03pm

re: #483 Macker

Unarmed, you are a Subject. ARMED, you are a CITIZEN.

And I am. With guns. And a brain.

504 zombie  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:29:22pm

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Breaking: Finance Committee drops “death panel” provisions from Senate bill

Good news. I personally would like to thank Sarah Palin for that result! Because she raised the alarm (however hyperbolically), attention was drawn to a problematic issue in the bill, and it was removed.

One way to get results!

505 KansasMom  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:29:30pm

re: #498 Ben Hur

I did see something strange today on the streets of Manhattan.

Young emo hipster chick wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Broke is the New Black."

She must be from Kansas.

I swear it wasn't me.

506 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:29:51pm

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Breaking: Finance Committee drops “death panel” provisions from Senate bill

Don't worry, if there is a provision like that it's still in some other bill.

507 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:30:11pm

re: #489 Thanos

Jayzuz...just when I thought we might make it through October without losing our marbles.

508 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:30:13pm

re: #499 Charles

Great! Discussion over.

Let's everybody cave in at once, and just pretend the issue doesn't even exist. I love politics.

It could be possible that the writing on the wall is becoming visible.

509 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:30:23pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

I've been repulsed by the right's handling of the healthcare debate. However...
New Gallup poll shows town hall protests winning over independents?

Rasmussen: GOP now more trusted on health care than Democrats
...it seems to be working. I'll give them credit for that.

That kind of reasoning treats the public as if they were mindless sheep being pulled in opposing directions and as if truth were subject to rhetorical manipulation. Americans are turned off to the Democrats' plan because it is a horrible piece of legislation, and the paralysis-inducing panic that facilitated the passing of the bailout, "stimulus," and outrageous budget is starting to fade. There's just so much bs people can swallow in a year. It's not the Republican leadership or the town-hall carzies that are convincing Americans to reject ObamaCare, it's the actual merits of the bill, or should I say, lack thereof. Republicans are probably even hurting themselves at the margins, but the net effect is that people won't be fooled on an issue so close to their skin as health care. It's too palpable a service for spin (from either side) to manipulate people's opinions easily...

The arrogance of Obama and the Democrats hasn't helped their cause either. What were those comments from Obama? “I don’t want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking,” he said. “I want them just to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess.” And emails contrarian to the bill being forwarded to the White House? Quite a way of shooting themselves in the foot...

People also tend to be apologetic to the disgusting behavior in some town hall meetings, because deep down they identify with the anger agitating these wackjobs. I am not speaking for myself here -- there are no excuses for this insanity as far as I'm personally concerned, but I'm sure many others will turn a blind eye.

Even I am angry, no, livid, about the prospect of this bill passing -- especially if it contains anything close to a public option. How I deal with my anger is obviously much more productive, and not being a Republican or a right-wing hack, I am not blind to the disgraceful behavior and fear mongering from the right (Palin's remarks being the case in point) but heck, I still trust the Republicans much more on health care than I trust Obama and his Congress because the former aren't trying to do jack, whereas the latter want to destroy anything I consider good about the current system while compounding its problems and inefficiencies.

510 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:30:25pm

re: #458 yochanan

well i know what my ;problems with health care are. the reason he waited to late for correct care more than likely is because he did have ins. the case really does prove my point. lots of sick people can't afford to pay for ins. after they get ill. or the ill. is considered a pre existing condition .

No, it wasn't. I can say that because I knew the man quite well, and knew the circumstances.

I understand your issues. It's just that my experience says that what you are saying is not necessarily the case.

511 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:30:39pm

re: #499 Charles

Great! Discussion over.

Let's everybody cave in at once, and just pretend the issue doesn't even exist. I love politics.

Now folks will feel justified in continuing to behave like kooks.

512 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:31:05pm

Next, Mitt Romney gives interviews in which he proposes a plan that would cover everyone, but with private insurance, with subsidies for those who can't afford it; coupled with tort reform and policies to really get rid of bad doctors.
The Republicans in Congress and the Senate, sensing their chance, propose it.
Voters approve, asking in all town meetings why the Romney proposal isn't being considered.
Then I woke up.

513 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:31:06pm

re: #503 Cato the Elder

And don't forget fear, a ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

514 psaturn  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:31:25pm

re: #504 zombie

Good news. I personally would like to thank Sarah Palin for that result! Because she raised the alarm (however hyperbolically), attention was drawn to a problematic issue in the bill, and it was removed.

One way to get results!

You mean there was really a "Death Panel" provision?

515 jvic  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:31:50pm

re: #397 Kenneth

That article is a legitimate contribution to the debate and I updinged it as such. However, your post ended with the next-to-last paragraph. The last paragraph is

A little over a hundred years ago the Dutch spawned a political party in direct response to the Godless cry of the French Revolution, "No God! No Master!" The Anti-Revolutionary Party proclaimed and worked for Christianity in all areas of life. Just one century later the French Revolution and its cry for absolute human autonomy has triumphed in the Netherlands.

To me, at least, that context is relevant.

(I am still ticked about being suckered into supporting, for a time, the Bush/Rove "permanent" Christian Republican majority. It's going to be a looong time, if ever, before I trust the religious right enough to evaluate its proposals purely on their standalone merits. That's a pity because I usually get on well with people of faith as individuals, but it is what it is.)

516 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:31:57pm

re: #509 medaura18586

Great points. People continue to confuse correlation with causation.

517 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:31:58pm

re: #500 Creeping Eruption

My ex pulled the same shit with her mothers inheritance(LARGE)
and that my friend is why she's the ex!
Saw a side I couldn't believe!

518 psaturn  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:32:05pm

re: #502 Walter L. Newton

But, but, but... (stutter... stutter... stutter) I thought there were no provisions (proposals?) in the bill that had anything to do with end of life?

I'm sooo confused.

Yeah me too!

519 yochanan  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:32:16pm

re: #476 JohninLondon

agreed 100%
rationed care exists already in Aneruca the ideal and the real world aren't the same.

520 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:32:18pm

re: #513 Kenneth

And don't forget fear, a ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Our chief weapon is surprise.
And fear,

521 jill e  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:32:34pm

re: #446 Cato

What Palin addresses, however hyperbolically, is the fact that government intervention into health care wherein it is guaranteed to all citizens (and non-citizens for that matter) CONVERTS ASSETS INTO LIABILITIES, producers of income to the government to cost centers. Like it or not Charles, this is the fundamental problem and one that cannot be addressed without at least a thought experiment into its logical conclusion.

An oldie, but goodie: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine

522 Cato  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:32:50pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

I am no statist, but you might as well learn what a bureaucrat really thinks of you. So long as you pay taxes to the entity which they are a part of, you have some nominal value to them. It, of course, isn't a real tangible value, like one you have to your dry cleaner or grocery store, but a value nonetheless. Once you suck from the public teat (unless you are a welfare recipient and the only interaction you have is with a caseworker whose job depends on your dependency), you are a liability to be removed.

523 GGMac  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:32:51pm

re: #234 Desert Dog

I think McCain would have beaten Hillary and perhaps for the reason you are suggesting. But, Hillary has high negatives...much higher than Obama's. She was a known commodity and you either loved her or hated her. Obama rode in with the biggest push from the MSM ever, after 8 years of an unpopular President from the other party and with a large turn out of newly minted voters, yet he was barely able to beat John McCain, who in my estimation ran an extremely poor campaign.


The USA will elect a woman one day...the question is which one?

We missed out big time with the passing of Jean Kirkpatrick.

524 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:33:05pm

I'm going to panic anyways!
/

525 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:33:06pm

re: #511 Sharmuta

Now folks will feel justified in continuing to behave like kooks.

How do we know it wasn't because of the many respectful emails, phone calls, and letters they received? Some on the town meetings were well done. They weren't all a rampage.

526 d1carter  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:33:11pm

She ain't going away...

527 spudly  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:33:38pm

End of life care constitutes the large majority of lifetime medical expense. The problem of course is knowing ahead of time who the lucky few % are that will benefit from aggressive care.

I think it's fair for an insurer to limit such aggressive care. If you are dumb enough to rely on the government as your insurer, then the taxpayer has a right to cut you off (that's what you get for ceding liberty over your health to the State, IMO).

That said, are there any other medical situations where counseling by the government is mandated? It seems like a bad idea to me entirely on that basis—the government should stay out of the doctor-patient relationship. It'd be fine for them to make turnkey living will solutions, etc available, but I don't think there needs to be a mandated conversation.

528 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:34:06pm

re: #525 Silvergirl

How do we know it wasn't because of the many respectful emails, phone calls, and letters they received? Some on the town meetings were well done. They weren't all a rampage.

True! But the kooks will still feel justified to continue carrying on in their kookery, regardless.

529 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:34:10pm

re: #516 Sharmuta

Great points. People continue to confuse correlation with causation.

Which results in people thinking that the Democrat's acting like insane spoiled children for 8 years is what won elections in 06 and 08.

"Now it's our turn to get our kook on!"

530 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:34:11pm

re: #506 kansas

Don't worry, if there is a provision like that it's still in some other bill.

Moved over to the section on Palliative care/

531 lincolntf  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:34:16pm

Hi all.
Anybody ever been to a "Jersey Mike's" sandwich/grinder/sub shop? I moved to NC from MA and haven't been able to find a decent grinder since. The Jersey Mike's in my new town is in a crappy strip mall so I always assumed it would suck. Got busy and had to pick a place quick today. Best grinder ever!
Don't know what their geographical range is, but if you hate Subway and love a nice substantial Dagwood, I highly recommed JM's.
That is all.

532 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:34:32pm

re: #525 Silvergirl

How do we know it wasn't because of the many respectful emails, phone calls, and letters they received? Some on the town meetings were well done. They weren't all a rampage.

non of them were rampage...the whole thing is overblown

533 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:34:32pm

re: #528 Sharmuta

True! But the kooks will still feel justified to continue carrying on in their kookery, regardless.

And so they always shall.

534 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:34:52pm

re: #325 zombie

It's delusional to think Sarah Palin is popular among Republicans and if she decided to would have a decent chance at getting the Republican nomination in 2012?

OK, if you say so.

Honestly Zombie, it's never gonna happen.

/two cents

535 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:34:55pm

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Breaking: Finance Committee drops “death panel” provisions from Senate bill

The irony of this is that Palin's original comments weren't even about the end-of-life provisions but were spun by others that way. Crazy, ain't it?

536 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:35:13pm

I lean right to life, but I also lean right to die. It's a matter of liberty. It was stupid to put the provisions into the health care bill for political reasons and appearances sake only. It's not stupid to have non-mandatory counseling for people in distress faced with the greatest dilemma in life, death, and existentialism. They should know their options. They also should have living wills, and I encourage Lizards to create them.
Whichever side you fall on, you still want your personal wishes & choices known, you don't want others deciding for you.

537 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:35:36pm
THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?
I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.
DAVID LEONHARDT: So how do you — how do we deal with it?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

That's a little harsher than the Dianne Sawyer interview.

538 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:35:36pm

re: #532 albusteve

non of them were rampage...the whole thing is overblown

I wouldn't agree. Some were full of anything but proud moments for Americans.

539 yochanan  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:35:45pm

re: #510 Dianna

it is for me

540 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:36:08pm

re: #397 Kenneth

Scary, factual stuff! A Clockwork Orange 25 years prior, unmasked Skinner's approach to psych/gov policy for what it was - and now, today, in spite of ACO's predictions, we have the Dutch track record in Socialized Medicine. (I had to read the book in my English Major at Tulane in about '70, and having to refer to the glossary of slang made for some difficult reading, but Kubrick solved that problem, "me druggies.")

However, many will not allow facts to over-ride opinions/political persuasion, come hell or high water! Thanks for the link.

541 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:36:18pm

re: #535 pianobuff

The irony of this is that Palin's original comments weren't even about the end-of-life provisions but were spun by others that way. Crazy, ain't it?

What were her comments anyway? All I saw was the MSM characterization of them.

542 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:36:23pm

re: #538 Silvergirl

I wouldn't agree. Some were full of anything but proud moments for Americans.

shouting and seething are not rampage imo

543 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:37:12pm

re: #542 albusteve

shouting and seething are not rampage imo

Not compared to hand to hand combat. You're right there.

544 albusteve  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:37:31pm

outski

545 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:38:03pm

re: #531 lincolntf

Hi all.
Anybody ever been to a "Jersey Mike's" sandwich/grinder/sub shop? I moved to NC from MA and haven't been able to find a decent grinder since. The Jersey Mike's in my new town is in a crappy strip mall so I always assumed it would suck. Got busy and had to pick a place quick today. Best grinder ever!
Don't know what their geographical range is, but if you hate Subway and love a nice substantial Dagwood, I highly recommed JM's.
That is all.

They even had those here in AZ...very tasty indeed

546 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:38:26pm

re: #538 Silvergirl

I wouldn't agree. Some were full of anything but proud moments for Americans.

Pretty sure history of this country's break from England included some yelling and vigorous kookery.

547 Cato  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:38:29pm

re: #491 Charles

As in law, physicians should treat like cases like and different cases differently. If a pacemaker on a 100 year old woman is called for, then that is within the reasonable discretion of the doctor. Are you saying it shouldn't be? Obama seems to say that it it would be an expense and it would better if the woman were looped out of her mind than given an expensive operation that might fail.

It is all there Charles. For the life of me I can't figure out how you can see a fake Iranian rocket and not see a bureaucratic clusterf*%k.

548 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:38:52pm

re: #455 Dianna

I think it's human nature to move only when you feel compelled to do so.

549 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:38:52pm

re: #529 ArchangelMichael

Which results in people thinking that the Democrat's acting like insane spoiled children for 8 years is what won elections in 06 and 08.

"Now it's our turn to get our kook on!"

Exactly. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with GOP incompetence that we lost some elections.

550 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:39:23pm

re: #523 GGMac

We missed out big time with the passing of Jean Kirkpatrick.

Our first woman President is out there somewhere. We just need her to step up and take it.

551 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:39:41pm
Breaking: Finance Committee drops “death panel” provisions from Senate bill

The first kink has been found in their armor. good. The progressives have been winged but we still can't stop letting the country know the dangers of the rest of this proposal.

Rasmussen has Obama sinking further then ever (Killgore links above) and Independents are now being influenced by the conservative outcry...

[Link: themoderatevoice.com...]

Keep up the good work.

552 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:40:23pm

re: #513 Kenneth

And don't forget fear, a ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

FOUR-- our FOUR chief weapons are...

553 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:40:27pm

re: #541 kansas

What were her comments anyway? All I saw was the MSM characterization of them.

She talks about it on her Facebook page. Her "death panel" comments were about comparative effectiveness guidelines, not end-of-life provisions. The media ran with something that maybe they thought would make more sensational headlines...who knows. Now the end-of-life provision is out of the Senate Finance Committee version of the bill and she's still free (presumably) to talk about comparative effectiveness if she so chooses.

554 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:40:34pm

re: A great disaster has been averted; there will be no Euthanasia Death Panels in the United States.

Good grief.

I guess this is one way to kill health care reform. One provision at a time.

Let's manufacture concern about a preventive care provision in the bill: I heard it forces regular checkups so that doctors can replace the batteries in the government implanted tracking devices.

555 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:40:34pm

re: #551 Walter L. Newton

The first kink has been found in their armor. good. The progressives have been winged but we still can't stop letting the country know the dangers of the rest of this proposal.

Rasmussen has Obama sinking further then ever (Killgore links above) and Independents are now being influenced by the conservative outcry...

[Link: themoderatevoice.com...]

Keep up the good work.

His RCP averages are still disturbingly positive though.

556 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:41:16pm

re: #550 Desert Dog

Our first woman President is out there somewhere. We just need her to step up and take it.

She's in Africa as we speak.

And no one is going to let anyother chick take it away from her.

That's why I think they go after Palin so harshly.

The Reps picked her as a token, and the Dems weren't having any of it.

557 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:41:22pm

re: #422 reloadingisnotahobby

It's why I have a survival chest in the garage.

558 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:41:35pm

re: #554 keithgabryelski

...I guess this is one way to kill health care reform. One provision at a time...

Correct. It is called freedom of speech.

559 doppelganglander  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:05pm

re: #531 lincolntf

Hi all.
Anybody ever been to a "Jersey Mike's" sandwich/grinder/sub shop? I moved to NC from MA and haven't been able to find a decent grinder since. The Jersey Mike's in my new town is in a crappy strip mall so I always assumed it would suck. Got busy and had to pick a place quick today. Best grinder ever!
Don't know what their geographical range is, but if you hate Subway and love a nice substantial Dagwood, I highly recommed JM's.
That is all.

Jersey Mike's is very good; we have them in Georgia too. However, if you go in and ask for a grinder, you may get a confused look. In Jersey, it's a sub, although in parts of south Jersey it's a hoagie, which is the Philadelphia term. Sheesh, next you'll be asking for a tonic.

560 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:07pm

Smurf Turf* in WA!
*Blue State Astroturf.

Going Stealth in Longview:

Something big is happening in the 3rd C.D. That was my gut feeling after I began hearing about a “stealth town hall event” in the works supposedly featuring our state’s two U.S. Senators Murray and Cantwell along with Congressman Brian Baird, to be hosted somewhere in the 3rd Congressional District.

[snip]

Folks, if this isn’t the definition of Astro-Turf (or Axel-Turf), I don’t know what is. A stealth town hall event, stacked with union members and Democrat supporters, all aimed at avoiding any shred of dissent or real discussion of the issue. The whole notion of a massive protest, however, is non-existent. At least it was, until now.

Review: No notice to the media. No invitation extended to anyone outside the OFA or union membership. Alarming emails to members saying there’s going to be a HUGE protest (at an event, mind you, nobody except the unions and Democrats know is happening).


RTWT

561 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:10pm

re: #553 pianobuff

She talks about it on her Facebook page. Her "death panel" comments were about comparative effectiveness guidelines, not end-of-life provisions. The media ran with something that maybe they thought would make more sensational headlines...who knows. Now the end-of-life provision is out of the Senate Finance Committee version of the bill and she's still free (presumably) to talk about comparative effectiveness if she so chooses.

In her second facebook post she specifically points out the Advanced care section, did you not follow the link or read the post above?

562 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:15pm

re: #546 kansas

Pretty sure history of this country's break from England included some yelling and vigorous kookery.

You are correct. Guns and other explosive devices were used also. It turned into a war. We won our independence from Great Britain. We're not currently in that same position. I hope the yelling and vigorous kookery you described doesn't escalate because then there was that other war where brother took up arms against brother . . .

563 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:41pm

re: #504 zombie

Good news. I personally would like to thank Sarah Palin for that result! Because she raised the alarm (however hyperbolically), attention was drawn to a problematic issue in the bill, and it was removed.

One way to get results!

So this makes two lessons of dubious quality flowing from events involving Sarah Palin.
1) You can force a sitting Governor out of some states by filing enough lawsuits and ethics complaints as it takes to bankrupt them.
2) You can force changes in legislation by taking some provision in that legislation to ridiculous extremes and shouting it from the mountaintops.

The tactic described in #1 is something I expect to see repeated ad infinitum from now on, especially by the party of the trial lawyers.
We've know about #2 for some time now, but this case was remarkable for its extremes and the high public profile of the participants.

564 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:43pm

re: #558 Walter L. Newton

Correct. It is called freedom of speech.

It's ironic you are being honest about something that is so dishonest.

565 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:44pm

Wow! I left a little while ago to do some laundry. This end of life counseling or whatever you wish to call it has hit a nerve. After being diagnosed with my particular cancer and after what my MiL went through, NON-Mandatory couseling is in my book ok. I wanted to see what options there were/are if it was going to be terminal. It isn't thank God. However, Rush had a thing on about a lady in Oregon whom the state disallowed her meds that would extend her life and the drug manufacturer provided them free. So I still don't want the gov't deciding who lives or dies.

566 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:47pm

OT
Scott Speicher's remains arrive in Jacksonville

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Sailors lined the runway of NAS Jacksonville as the remains of Navy pilot Michael Scott Speicher returned to his northeast Florida home Thursday afternoon.

The private aircraft arrived at 3 p.m. -- right on time -- more than 18 years after his FA-18 Hornet was shot down on the first night of the Gulf War.

By military custom, the casket was received in a solemn ceremony that is used for all those killed in action. Speicher's widow and each of the couple's grown children laid flowers on the casket before it was carried to a hearse for a short ride to All Saints Chapel on the base.

Sailors, marines, law enforcement personnel and others saluted for the entire length of the one mile route to the chapel, where casket will lay in repose overnight.

"Home is the sailor home from sea, and the hunter home from the hill."

567 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:54pm

Totally OT.
Standoff between a man suspected of making threats against the white house and LAPD, Secret Service:
[Link: www.myfoxla.com...]

568 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:55pm

re: #554 keithgabryelski


Were you this passionate about Social Security reform?

/Serious question.

569 yochanan  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:42:56pm

we are from the gov't and are here to help you. is about as rational as

thinking everybody gets the same care now and that there isn't rationing being done.


frankly I think I will screwed how ever this turns out.

570 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:43:16pm

re: #503 Cato the Elder

And I am. With guns. And a brain.

What kind of delivery system you got for that there brain? Whose brain was it by the way?

571 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:43:23pm

re: #502 Walter L. Newton

But, but, but... (stutter... stutter... stutter) I thought there were no provisions (proposals?) in the bill that had anything to do with end of life?

I'm sooo confused.

Nobody said that.

572 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:43:36pm
573 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:43:58pm

re: #561 Thanos

In her second facebook post she specifically points out the Advanced care section, did you not follow the link or read the post above?

Yes I did - and the initial one. I'm not so sure you did though. Try again.

574 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:44:02pm

When I think of notable women leaders, people like Lady Thatcher, Indira Gandhi, Corazon Aquino, Angela Merkel, Golda Meir, and Boadicea come to mind. Your list may vary.

Sarah Palin no more has what it takes to head this or any other nation (or state, QED) than Glenn Beck. She could maybe give him a run for his money as prime assclown of the right-wing politainers, and I hope she does. Everyone needs to find her own calling.

I was not pre-programmed to vote Obama. McCain's desperate, cynical move in raising up Palin was what did it for me. That senile old bastard actually dared to put this narcissistic airhead in a position where she could now be the President of the United States of America. Anyone who doesn't find that a frightening prospect after her flight from responsibility in Alaska and her idiotic statements lately should take a hard look at reality. But he only wanted what's best for the country, right? Wrong. He wanted to be president so bad he would risk giving the football to an imbecile.

McCain or may not have had a stiffie for her himself, but the reactions here and elsewhere from guys who say "she may be kinda dim, but she's hot" show that his decision sprang at least in part from such calculations.

She was a gefundenes Fressen (easy munching) for the MSM, and it wasn't their fault. They just saw what was offered and ran with it.

575 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:44:15pm

re: #556 Ben Hur
come on ben, are you kidding or do you really believe that?

576 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:44:21pm

re: #571 Charles

Nobody said that.

I'm still confused.

577 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:45:01pm

re: #549 Sharmuta

Exactly. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with GOP incompetence that we lost some elections.

Let's face it, the Republicans had it all and wasted it with outrageous spending and stupidity. The War in Iraq, for better or worse also sank the GOP. And, finally, GWB himself harmed the Republican Party. Now, it's a circular firing squad with the loonies coming out of the woodwork.

BUT, I see a glimmer of hope every time I see the Dems in the Congress spout off and every time I hear President Obama announce another policy.

Even if the Dems fail miserably (and I think they will), the GOP still has to have a positive message and a PLAN to fix all this crap Obama is going to screw up. Without those two, it'll be 8 years of Nobama for us all.

578 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:45:07pm

re: #567 Pvt Bin Jammin

Totally OT.
Standoff between a man suspected of making threats against the white house and LAPD, Secret Service:
[Link: www.myfoxla.com...]

His Red Volkswagen? Maybe for once not a right wing extremist?

579 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:45:24pm

re: #565 pingjockey

Hey Ping! RW and I were talking 'bout you last night, nothing good I assure you! /;-P

We had seen you for a few days, and were a little concerned.

Good to see you around and about, how you doing?

580 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:45:29pm

re: #563 CyanSnowHawk

Just a quick question for people who bandy about the term "trial lawyers." What do you call the men and women who defend lawsuits?

581 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:45:46pm

re: #556 Ben Hur
God Forbid that woman from ever getting into the WH again, except as a guest.

582 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:45:57pm

re: #573 pianobuff

Yes I did - and the initial one. I'm not so sure you did though. Try again.

I read 'em and posted them in spinoffs, try again.

583 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:46:17pm

re: #578 Thanos

His Red Volkswagen? Maybe for once not a right wing extremist?


Heh.
It will be interesting to see who the suspect is.

584 Perplexed  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:46:52pm

Our government can't even handle something as simple as gate screening at airports (weapons, explosives, and incendiaries) without trampling the rights of citizens. I've seen pencil necked bureaucrats recite rule and regulation with absolutely no regard for the humans on the receiving end. A 1017 page bill needs careful scrutiny before being foisted upon the American public.

Is there a bit of panic on both sides of the issue due to inflammatory rhetoric? Sure, and neither side is willing to back off and both seem more than willing to bring the nation down with them. Not one of the people hogging the airwaves seems to care about the people of the US in the mad grab for political power. Next election we'll probably see many in office swept out and replaced with new power hungry politicians (meet the new boss same as the old boss). Give the new folks a few months in office and you'll have difficulty telling them from the old folks. The term party hack used to be a very disparaging term. Today party hack is a badge proudly worn by those in office.

Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are either bankrupt or being supported by general revenues. When Congress took FICA and dumped those funds into general revenues I suspected that after their spending spree burned through all of that money that Congress would float other tax and spend plans. Both parties do this but supposedly conservative republicans do this with a slight of hand while making the taxpayer look forward to this.

During the 60s and 70s companies with well funded pension plans were sought out for hostile takeovers resulting in the looting of pensions by the new owners. It didn't take a rocket scientist on the board of directors to realize that the best thing for them to do was to dissolve the pension plan to avoid hostile takeovers. Good bye pension. The government did nothing to stop this raiding of pension plans. Got a 401K? Some politicians have suggested taxing those as well. That leaves many of us with nothing but Social Security as retirement funds. Friends have asked when I plan on retiring and the answer is a day or so before they shovel dirt on my face.

As a nation we're in trouble. Our manufacturing base is going away, never to return. That manufacturing base is what made this country great. I've caught hell for saying this before, but if you want to see where the US is at 20-30 years from now, just look at the UK today.

585 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:47:15pm

re: #582 Thanos

I read 'em and posted them in spinoffs, try again.

Shall we keep doing this? Read below.

My original comments concerned statements made by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President’s chief of staff. Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens...An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” [10] Dr. Emanuel has also advocated basing medical decisions on a system which “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.” [11]

586 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:47:15pm

And in other news, the financial health of this country is still tanking...

Foreclosure plague: No cure yet - The housing market is still sick, with a record number of foreclosure filings posted in July.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

Come on Barry, you're getting behind.

587 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:47:36pm

re: #562 Silvergirl

You are correct. Guns and other explosive devices were used also. It turned into a war. We won our independence from Great Britain. We're not currently in that same position. I hope the yelling and vigorous kookery you described doesn't escalate because then there was that other war where brother took up arms against brother . . .

The country is pretty evently divided on this issue and one side with the majority, albeit a small one, cramming various things down the other sides throat. This, IMO, has resulted in resistance. As soon as the elected representatives including the President realize they represent everyone, I think things might calm down. You might have hated Bush, but he was President of the United States, not President of the Liberal Democrats.

588 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:47:58pm

re: #586 Walter L. Newton

And in other news, the financial health of this country is still tanking...

Foreclosure plague: No cure yet - The housing market is still sick, with a record number of foreclosure filings posted in July.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

Come on Barry, you're getting behind.

But, but, stimulus is working...

Or so I've been told!

589 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:48:09pm

re: #556 Ben Hur

She's in Africa as we speak.

And no one is going to let anyother chick take it away from her.

That's why I think they go after Palin so harshly.

The Reps picked her as a token, and the Dems weren't having any of it.

Hillary? Perhaps, but she lost this time around...her time may have passed her by now...If Obama wins again in 2012, it'll be 2016 before she could get in again. She'll be 69 and the country will have endured 8 years of Democrat rule. Even a crappy GOP nominee should be able to capitalize on that.

590 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:48:12pm

re: #579 jcm
I am doing fair to middling. 2nd chemo yesterday, one more to go. Can't figure out if it's the anti naseau meds or if I need new glasses, hard to see the screen! Probably glasses! E-mailed RW this am so he'll be updated. Last week was a bit tough, but doing good now. Thanks.

591 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:48:35pm

re: #554 keithgabryelski

Good grief.

I guess this is one way to kill health care reform. One provision at a time.

Let's manufacture concern about a preventive care provision in the bill: I heard it forces regular checkups so that doctors can replace the batteries in the government implanted tracking devices.

There also isn't a lot of evidence that preventive care saves lives or money.

592 opnion  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:48:38pm

I have been off for a while, work intruded.
How many times have the Progressives called Palin a Bimbo?
How about when Michelle said something very stupid while her husband was running for President, "America is a downright mean country"
Would it be fair to call her a bimbo? I don't think so & Sarah Palin is definitely not one.

593 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:48:40pm

re: #577 Desert Dog

At this point, all the 2012 speculation is irrelevant. We can't cast a role for a script we don't even have.

594 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:48:49pm

re: #585 pianobuff

Shall we keep doing this? Read below.

My original comments concerned statements made by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President’s chief of staff. Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens...An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” [10] Dr. Emanuel has also advocated basing medical decisions on a system which “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.” [11]

This information is of no use to the discussion.
/

595 chotii  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:48:56pm

re: #452 kansas

Well after having spent some time in a nursing home watching my mother die of dementia, you can have two 83 year olds both in need of a hip replacement, one who doesn't know who she is, where she is, and can't feed herself, and another who is alert able to do do all those things. One gets the hip, the other doesn't. One size fits all does not work.

My grandfather is 96 years old. He is in an Alzheimer Care facility in Washington State.

Half a year ago, he fell and shattered his hip. He was in absolute agony – bad enough under any circumstances, but worse in his case because he could not comprehend it, and could not be gotten to lie still, rather thrashing against his pain. Drugging him insensible would not have even really been palliative, as his bones would have healed slowly if at all. To keep him from being in pain, he would have had to be bed-bound 24/7 and drugged unconscious, placing him at risk for skin breakdown and every sort of infection. His doctor advised a hip replacement. Our whole family said “You’re kidding, right? He’s 96 years old.” But…he was right.

My grandfather had the hip replacement, using (by the way) his own private insurance. He came through extremely well, healed amazingly well, and while he can no longer walk, he is in no pain and does not require full-time sedation – or any sedation at all. He enjoys life as much as someone in his situation can do. Sometimes the man we knew surfaces from under the muddled confusion; the sense of humor, the sweet kindness. We haven’t lost him entirely, yet.

There were only three other options any of us could see:

1. Drug him to keep him out of pain, necessarily depriving him of any ability to interact with the world, until some iatrogenic illness or secondary infection carried him off
2. 'Accidentally' overdose him while sedating him, so that he died, and call it ‘mercy’.
3. Deliberately overdose him and kill him. This is currently illegal under Washington law, though we do have a 'voluntary physician-assisted death' law. He could not have qualified, being mentally incompetent, and others are not permitted to act on behalf of the individual.

I still believe the doctor made the right decision.

596 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:49:25pm

re: #586 Walter L. Newton

And in other news, the financial health of this country is still tanking...

Foreclosure plague: No cure yet - The housing market is still sick, with a record number of foreclosure filings posted in July.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

Come on Barry, you're getting behind.

Hey, yesterday Avanti told me the recession was over and he was enjoying some refreshing KoolAid and petting his unicorn. What happened?

597 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:49:30pm

re: #585 pianobuff

Shall we keep doing this? Read below.

My original comments concerned statements made by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President’s chief of staff. Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens...An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” [10] Dr. Emanuel has also advocated basing medical decisions on a system which “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.” [11]

I had this debate with someone yesterday, Emmanuel was referring to organ waiting lists where someone is guaranteed not to receive treatment due to lack of organ donors. How do you propose to decide who gets a kidney and who doesn't Solomon?

598 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:49:31pm

re: #594 Walter L. Newton

?... et tu Walter?

599 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:49:56pm
600 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:49:58pm

re: #562 Silvergirl

You are correct. Guns and other explosive devices were used also. It turned into a war. We won our independence from Great Britain. We're not currently in that same position. I hope the yelling and vigorous kookery you described doesn't escalate because then there was that other war where brother took up arms against brother . . .

Fortunately, that couldn't happen today, since all the libs are anti-gun...
///

601 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:49:58pm
602 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:49:58pm

re: #590 pingjockey

I am doing fair to middling. 2nd chemo yesterday, one more to go. Can't figure out if it's the anti naseau meds or if I need new glasses, hard to see the screen! Probably glasses! E-mailed RW this am so he'll be updated. Last week was a bit tough, but doing good now. Thanks.

Good to see, ya. Your and yours are in my prayers.

Have someone check the side effects of the meds, a slight increase in pressure inside the eye is not uncommon, and will muck up your focus.

603 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:50:14pm

re: #574 Cato the Elder

When I think of notable women leaders, people like Lady Thatcher, Indira Gandhi, Corazon Aquino, Angela Merkel, Golda Meir, and Boadicea come to mind. Your list may vary.

Sarah Palin no more has what it takes to head this or any other nation (or state, QED) than Glenn Beck. She could maybe give him a run for his money as prime assclown of the right-wing politainers, and I hope she does. Everyone needs to find her own calling.

I was not pre-programmed to vote Obama. McCain's desperate, cynical move in raising up Palin was what did it for me. That senile old bastard actually dared to put this narcissistic airhead in a position where she could now be the President of the United States of America. Anyone who doesn't find that a frightening prospect after her flight from responsibility in Alaska and her idiotic statements lately should take a hard look at reality. But he only wanted what's best for the country, right? Wrong. He wanted to be president so bad he would risk giving the football to an imbecile.

McCain or may not have had a stiffie for her himself, but the reactions here and elsewhere from guys who say "she may be kinda dim, but she's hot" show that his decision sprang at least in part from such calculations.

She was a gefundenes Fressen (easy munching) for the MSM, and it wasn't their fault. They just saw what was offered and ran with it.

ahhh, a nobama voter. thanks, that explains it all

604 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:50:38pm

re: #567 Pvt Bin Jammin

Totally OT.
Standoff between a man suspected of making threats against the white house and LAPD, Secret Service:
[Link: www.myfoxla.com...]

Ugh.

605 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:50:51pm

re: #574 Cato the Elder

When I think of notable women leaders, people like Lady Thatcher, Indira Gandhi, Corazon Aquino, Angela Merkel, Golda Meir, and Boadicea come to mind. Your list may vary.

Sarah Palin no more has what it takes to head this or any other nation (or state, QED) than Glenn Beck. She could maybe give him a run for his money as prime assclown of the right-wing politainers, and I hope she does. Everyone needs to find her own calling.

I was not pre-programmed to vote Obama. McCain's desperate, cynical move in raising up Palin was what did it for me. That senile old bastard actually dared to put this narcissistic airhead in a position where she could now be the President of the United States of America. Anyone who doesn't find that a frightening prospect after her flight from responsibility in Alaska and her idiotic statements lately should take a hard look at reality. But he only wanted what's best for the country, right? Wrong. He wanted to be president so bad he would risk giving the football to an imbecile.

McCain or may not have had a stiffie for her himself, but the reactions here and elsewhere from guys who say "she may be kinda dim, but she's hot" show that his decision sprang at least in part from such calculations.

She was a gefundenes Fressen (easy munching) for the MSM, and it wasn't their fault. They just saw what was offered and ran with it.

The named women at the start of your post and Sarah Palin have something in common other than being women. They have held positions of responsibility in public office. Therefore they deserve to be judged on the merits of their service and NOT on whether they give their running mates stiffies, whether they have perky tits, or whether both supporters and detractors find them hot.

Your comments here have disgusted me.

606 doppelganglander  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:50:53pm

re: #595 chotii

I'm glad your grandfather is doing well, and I'm glad he had a physician who was permitted to treat him as an individual, not just a number on the wrong end of Dr. Emanuel's curve.

607 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:50:57pm

re: #592 opnion

Mostly I've heard that from someone I would like to respect.

Little as I like Palin, I'm beginning to think that a lot of the "gum-cracking bimbo" comments arise purely from misogyny, rather like the tendency of far too many people to get hung up on Hillary Clinton's hips and ankles, when it's her ideas that are ugly.

608 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:51:05pm

re: #602 jcm
Pressure in the eye? Or my BP?

609 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:51:14pm

re: #597 Thanos

I had this debate with someone yesterday, Emmanuel was referring to organ waiting lists where someone is guaranteed not to receive treatment due to lack of organ donors. How do you propose to decide who gets a kidney and who doesn't Solomon?

Was I arguing the point? Look at my original statement. It's clear that the media interpreted Palin's statements incorrectly from the get-go. I've been arguing that for numerous posts over the past few days. Now Palin re-affirms what I had been saying all along.

That's all.

610 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:51:55pm

re: #584 Perplexed

I had to retreat my upsding when I read your last paragraph. Manufacturing base? Really?

611 Psaturn  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:51:59pm

re: #595 chotii

Chotii, thanks for sharing that! I wonder what would the outcome be under nationalized healthcare and bureaucrats deciding what to do with your grandpa?

612 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:52:01pm

re: #575 apachegunner

come on ben, are you kidding or do you really believe that?


I think a BIG part of lightening fast anti-Palin movement (led by the MSM)that emerged immediately upon anyone even hearing about her for the first time was an effort to reserve the "first woman" honor for Hillary.

613 garycooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:52:03pm

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Breaking: Finance Committee drops “death panel” provisions from Senate bill

Wait...I thought they didn't exist in the first place.

614 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:52:10pm

re: #499 Charles

Great! Discussion over.

Let's everybody cave in at once, and just pretend the issue doesn't even exist. I love politics.

I'm glad you do.
Frankly, they give me a bad case of indigestion.

615 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:52:21pm

re: #608 pingjockey

Pressure in the eye? Or my BP?

Pressure in the eye.

616 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:52:22pm

re: #605 Silvergirl

The named women at the start of your post and Sarah Palin have something in common other than being women. They have held positions of responsibility in public office. Therefore they deserve to be judged on the merits of their service and NOT on whether they give their running mates stiffies, whether they have perky tits, or whether both supporters and detractors find them hot.

Your comments here have disgusted me.

Judging Palin by the merits of her service? You're kidding, right?

Fail.

617 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:52:24pm

re: #596 Desert Dog

Hey, yesterday Avanti told me the recession was over and he was enjoying some refreshing KoolAid and petting his unicorn. What happened?

Beats me. A rip in the time space continuum?

618 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:53:15pm

Live feed
Nothing going on that I can see.

619 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:53:28pm

re: #615 jcm
Thanks. I need new glasses anyway! Been having a helluva time reading small print on some things!

620 Perplexed  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:53:39pm

re: #608 pingjockey

Pressure in the eye? Or my BP?

Could be either. Got high bp myself and when off of meds my prescription to the glasses changes significantly. Cover one eye and see if you can read. That checks your eyeballs tracking each other.

621 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:53:44pm

re: #568 Ben Hur

Were you this passionate about Social Security reform?

/Serious question.

I don't think there is anyone that doesn't know Social Security needs reforming.

We probably have differences in the way is should be reformed. For instance, I wouldn't use a reform of Social Security to privatize it in the ways that have been suggested by the George W. Bush administration but an increase in age seems reasonable.

But, no, I wasn't as passionate about Social Security reform because it was pretty obvious nothing would come of it because, by the time he got around to it, President George W. Bush had lost the nation's trust and so there really wasn't anything to talk about.

I would have been passionate if it looked serious.

622 KingKenrod  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:53:49pm

re: #553 pianobuff

She talks about it on her Facebook page. Her "death panel" comments were about comparative effectiveness guidelines, not end-of-life provisions. The media ran with something that maybe they thought would make more sensational headlines...who knows. Now the end-of-life provision is out of the Senate Finance Committee version of the bill and she's still free (presumably) to talk about comparative effectiveness if she so chooses.

I always thought Palin's comment was about rationing and comparative effectiveness (entirely legitimate concerns) Palin's hysteria notwithstanding.

Removing that eol provision from the bill is just stupid. Too bad they can't remove the rationing part without scrapping the whole philosophy behind their approach.

623 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:53:54pm

re: #613 garycooper

Wait...I thought they didn't exist in the first place.

Nobody said the House bill didn't have provisions for end of life care.

624 apachegunner  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:54:31pm

re: #612 Ben Hur

I think a BIG part of lightening fast anti-Palin movement (led by the MSM)that emerged immediately upon anyone even hearing about her for the first time was an effort to reserve the "first woman" honor for Hillary.


but, but, but she isn't a woman? i don't know what it is she is but it isn't woman.

625 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:54:34pm

re: #589 Desert Dog

Hillary? Perhaps, but she lost this time around...her time may have passed her by now...If Obama wins again in 2012, it'll be 2016 before she could get in again. She'll be 69 and the country will have endured 8 years of Democrat rule. Even a crappy GOP nominee should be able to capitalize on that.

Good points.

Though a second term for Obama?

You're not a racist if you voted for him the first time and not the second...

626 Shug  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:54:47pm

Dr Emanuel no doubt wants to guarantee healthcare to prisoners on death row, convicted Terrorists, KSM, and of course 15 million illegal immigrants.

627 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:54:51pm

More on the financial health of the country...

Retail sales unexpectedly dip 0.1 percent in July
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]

Retail sales dip unexpectedly, jobless claims rise
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]

628 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:00pm
629 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:01pm

re: #595 chotii

My grandfather is 96 years old. He is in an Alzheimer Care facility in Washington State.

Half a year ago, he fell and shattered his hip. He was in absolute agony – bad enough under any circumstances, but worse in his case because he could not comprehend it, and could not be gotten to lie still, rather thrashing against his pain. Drugging him insensible would not have even really been palliative, as his bones would have healed slowly if at all. To keep him from being in pain, he would have had to be bed-bound 24/7 and drugged unconscious, placing him at risk for skin breakdown and every sort of infection. His doctor advised a hip replacement. Our whole family said “You’re kidding, right? He’s 96 years old.” But…he was right.

My grandfather had the hip replacement, using (by the way) his own private insurance. He came through extremely well, healed amazingly well, and while he can no longer walk, he is in no pain and does not require full-time sedation – or any sedation at all. He enjoys life as much as someone in his situation can do. Sometimes the man we knew surfaces from under the muddled confusion; the sense of humor, the sweet kindness. We haven’t lost him entirely, yet.

There were only three other options any of us could see:

1. Drug him to keep him out of pain, necessarily depriving him of any ability to interact with the world, until some iatrogenic illness or secondary infection carried him off
2. 'Accidentally' overdose him while sedating him, so that he died, and call it ‘mercy’.
3. Deliberately overdose him and kill him. This is currently illegal under Washington law, though we do have a 'voluntary physician-assisted death' law. He could not have qualified, being mentally incompetent, and others are not permitted to act on behalf of the individual.

I still believe the doctor made the right decision.

Absolutely made the right decision. Can't find that case in the government what to do manual. That's part of the art of medicine about which, among other things, Obama has nary a clue.

630 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:05pm

re: #616 Cato the Elder

Judging Palin by the merits of her service? You're kidding, right?

Fail.

No, I'm not kidding. That is how leaders are to be judged. I didn't suggest how to judge her service, but I did state how not to judge her person.

631 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:06pm

re: #597 Thanos

I had this debate with someone yesterday, Emmanuel was referring to organ waiting lists where someone is guaranteed not to receive treatment due to lack of organ donors. How do you propose to decide who gets a kidney and who doesn't Solomon?

It's not a pretty discussion.

However, let's say that candidate 1 for a kidney will have to continue taking the medications that killed his original kidneys. Candidate 2 will not, but has hemachromatosis. Candidate 3 has neither issue, but is 85.

What do you do?

632 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:07pm

re: #619 pingjockey

Thanks. I need new glasses anyway! Been having a helluva time reading small print on some things!

I just got my first reading glasses... I pick something up, squint, then start muttering about being an old fart and where are those &%$# glasses.

633 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:19pm

re: #439 albusteve

or tort reform
kill the bill

And detect and knock out the estimated over 100 $ Billion in fraudulent spending. If the Gov delivers this program with this amount of waste/criminal theft - just imagine the numbers ($$$) that will result from a single payer, Gov program that includes all US citizens (and illegals when they receive citizenship under the DEM'S)?

Zombie is on track (ONT) - there is a lot more than US health care at stake here. That is probably what's driving the polls and growing numbers of concerned citizens showing up at HC THs, of all stripes.

634 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:39pm

re: #620 Perplexed
Yeah, eyeballs ok. Thanks.

635 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:43pm

re: #609 pianobuff

Was I arguing the point? Look at my original statement. It's clear that the media interpreted Palin's statements incorrectly from the get-go. I've been arguing that for numerous posts over the past few days. Now Palin re-affirms what I had been saying all along.

That's all.

You can interpret it anyway you want to, but there's nothing unclear about her painting a fantasy picture of her child standing before a "death panel".

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

636 opnion  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:55:54pm

re: #616 Cato the Elder

Judging Palin by the merits of her service? You're kidding, right?

Fail.

Have you considered that Palin was in the bullpen, but Obama was the starting pitcher?
let's see no executive experience, a somewhat cloudy past. Revernd Wrihgt , Bill Ayers, etc. etc. Good call!

637 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:56:01pm

re: #623 Charles

Nobody said the House bill didn't have provisions for end of life care.

What some did try to point out, however, is that those provisions in the bill are not essentially different from the ones currently operating in private insurance. If those really interested in rational discussion had pulled their fingers out of their ears, they may have got the memo.

639 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:56:29pm

re: #607 Dianna

Mostly I've heard that from someone I would like to respect.

Little as I like Palin, I'm beginning to think that a lot of the "gum-cracking bimbo" comments arise purely from misogyny, rather like the tendency of far too many people to get hung up on Hillary Clinton's hips and ankles, when it's her ideas that are ugly.

Misogyny on the part of liberal democrats and the MSM? Why Dianna, you surprise me. : )

640 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:56:41pm

re: #631 Dianna

It's not a pretty discussion.

However, let's say that candidate 1 for a kidney will have to continue taking the medications that killed his original kidneys. Candidate 2 will not, but has hemachromatosis. Candidate 3 has neither issue, but is 85.

What do you do?

Apparently some people think you should look into their spirit and decide who has the strongest will to live.

641 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:57:00pm

re: #580 Creeping Eruption

Just a quick question for people who bandy about the term "trial lawyers." What do you call the men and women who defend lawsuits?

When I say 'trial lawyers,' what party comes to mind? I'll bet it's not the GOP for the vast majority of people.

642 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:57:16pm

re: #632 jcm
I've had glasses or contacts since the 4th grade! Can't wear contacts now, astigmatism in my right eye.

643 Shug  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:57:29pm

re: #631 Dianna

It's not a pretty discussion.

However, let's say that candidate 1 for a kidney will have to continue taking the medications that killed his original kidneys. Candidate 2 will not, but has hemachromatosis. Candidate 3 has neither issue, but is 85.

What do you do?

Look for a candidate 4 ?

644 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:57:44pm

re: #622 KingKenrod

I always thought Palin's comment was about rationing and comparative effectiveness (entirely legitimate concerns) Palin's hysteria notwithstanding.

Removing that eol provision from the bill is just stupid. Too bad they can't remove the rationing part without scrapping the whole philosophy behind their approach.

Yes - that's what her comment was about. She brought it up again in her 2nd posting after talking about end-of-life provisions, re-affirming that was her original issue. In the meantime, the media and blogs went on fire that this was about end-of-life stuff, which is wasn't.

All of the end-of-life language could be ripped out of the bill, and her talking point remains alive. I don't know if or how she will pursue it though.

645 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:57:48pm

re: #587 kansas

The country is pretty evently divided on this issue and one side with the majority, albeit a small one, cramming various things down the other sides throat. This, IMO, has resulted in resistance. As soon as the elected representatives including the President realize they represent everyone, I think things might calm down. You might have hated Bush, but he was President of the United States, not President of the Liberal Democrats.

I understand what you've said, and for the record I did not and do not hate Bush. At all.

646 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:58:10pm

We're going to need a new course for medical students -- Spirit Examination.

647 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:58:20pm

re: #645 Silvergirl

I understand what you've said, and for the record I did not and do not hate Bush. At all.

Thanks. Sorry to have implied that.

648 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:58:24pm

re: #388 Shiplord Kirel

I knew we had heard from this nutburger Broun before:
And Now, Black Helicopter Republicans (LGF 11-10-08)

Well, we’ve had eight years of loony left Bush Derangement Syndrome, so I guess it’s time for the loony right to get their derangement on: Georgia congressman warns of Obama dictatorship.

Refresh my memory on this, just exactly which loony party is it that's in power right now?

I thought I heard that right.

649 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:58:26pm

re: #631 Dianna

It's not a pretty discussion.

However, let's say that candidate 1 for a kidney will have to continue taking the medications that killed his original kidneys. Candidate 2 will not, but has hemachromatosis. Candidate 3 has neither issue, but is 85.

What do you do?

For the purposes of discussion...

The Case for Mandatory Organ Donation

"Routine recovery would be much simpler and cheaper to implement than proposals designed to stimulate consent because there would be no need for donor registries, no need to train requestors, no need for stringent government regulation, no need to consider paying for organs, and no need for permanent public education campaigns," wrote Aaron Spital, a clinical professor at Mount Sinai School of Medicine, and James Stacey Taylor, an assistant professor of philosophy at the College of New Jersey, in a controversial article published this year by the American Society of Nephrology.
650 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:58:28pm

re: #621 keithgabryelski

I don't think there is anyone that doesn't know Social Security needs reforming.

We probably have differences in the way is should be reformed. For instance, I wouldn't use a reform of Social Security to privatize it in the ways that have been suggested by the George W. Bush administration but an increase in age seems reasonable.

But, no, I wasn't as passionate about Social Security reform because it was pretty obvious nothing would come of it because, by the time he got around to it, President George W. Bush had lost the nation's trust and so there really wasn't anything to talk about.

I would have been passionate if it looked serious.

I don't see it exactly that way.

I seem to remember he brought it up quite early in his admin, but when he really tried to make a push the Dems made very similar arguements to what the Reps are making today about health care reform - the expense.

And they were against SS reform because of the expense when times were good.

I see similarities in the reactions.

651 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:58:31pm

re: #631 Dianna

It's not a pretty discussion.

However, let's say that candidate 1 for a kidney will have to continue taking the medications that killed his original kidneys. Candidate 2 will not, but has hemachromatosis. Candidate 3 has neither issue, but is 85.

What do you do?

Which one will be eligible to vote and pay taxes longer?

/

652 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:58:53pm

re: #646 Charles
I can recommend a Nez' Perce' shamman.

653 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:59:01pm

re: #646 Charles

We're going to need a new course for medical students -- Spirit Examination.

Jindal could probably teach it after that exorcism gig.

654 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:59:07pm

re: #635 Thanos

You are missing the point I was making, which was that her "death panel" comment was not related to the end-of-life provisions until the media and blogs decided that's what it was about.

Can we agree on that?

655 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:59:26pm

re: #646 Charles

We're going to need a new course for medical students -- Spirit Examination.

Reiki and acupuncture comes pretty close.

656 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:59:33pm

re: #630 Silvergirl

No, I'm not kidding. That is how leaders are to be judged. I didn't suggest how to judge her service, but I did state how not to judge her person.

Chacun à ses dégoûtantes.

657 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:59:43pm

re: #624 apachegunner

but, but, but she isn't a woman? i don't know what it is she is but it isn't woman.

She's all woman.

658 Silvergirl  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 12:59:44pm

Out for the afternoon.

Thanks for playing.

659 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:00:05pm

re: #654 pianobuff

You are missing the point I was making, which was that her "death panel" comment was not related to the end-of-life provisions until the media and blogs decided that's what it was about.

Can we agree on that?

I can agree that she backed off from her original verbal grenade.

660 Psaturn  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:00:10pm

re: #642 pingjockey

I've had glasses or contacts since the 4th grade! Can't wear contacts now, astigmatism in my right eye.

There are many contacts that correct for astigmatism. It depends on how strong it is and all that...if it very high, there are rigid gas permeable that will correct those high astigmatism.

661 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:00:40pm
662 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:04pm

re: #616 Cato the Elder

Judging Palin by the merits of her service? You're kidding, right?

Fail.

Why?

She was doing a fair job as governor of Alaska, prior to being raised to national prominence.

I happen to view her resignation as the key reason I'd not vote for her. But your attitude seems to be that she's an incompetent bimbo, period, and please don't distract you with any other facts.

663 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:05pm

re: #19 TheMatrix31

She's not saying it in the right way, but yes, I am concerned about what would happen to those who are older if/when they get sick. Government has no role in any part of that. None.

Are you opposed to Medicaid on those grounds? Cause I know some old ladies with serious walker-fu who would challenge that statement.

664 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:09pm

re: #551 Walter L. Newton

The first kink has been found in their armor. good. The progressives have been winged but we still can't stop letting the country know the dangers of the rest of this proposal.

Rasmussen has Obama sinking further then ever (Killgore links above) and Independents are now being influenced by the conservative outcry...

[Link: themoderatevoice.com...]

Keep up the good work.

I don't consider fearmongering and exploitation of the vulnerable elderly to be a form of "good work", Walter.

Sometimes the end does not justify the means.

/two cents

665 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:23pm
666 pingjockey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:26pm

re: #660 Psaturn
I will check that out. Merci'.
Now it's nap time!

667 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:41pm

re: #646 Charles

We're going to need a new course for medical students -- Spirit Examination.

We could weigh it!

///

Dr. Duncan MacDougall (c. 1866 – 15 October 1920) was an early 20th century physician in Haverhill, Massachusetts who sought to measure the mass purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death.

668 kansas  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:46pm

re: #661 taxfreekiller

The Democrats got dealt a pair of three's.

"We the People" are the dealers (aka pay the taxes do the work) and we have a full house. Aces and Kings.

Democrats under the leadership of Pelosi, Reid and Obama over played and over bet their tinker-toy pair.

IMO


Game isn't over. Hands are still being dealt.

669 Code Red 21  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:55pm

re: #94 Desert Dog

I hope "medically necessary" still holds the same weight as it does now, that is all.

It will all depend on who decides what is medically necessary, won't it?

670 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:01:59pm

re: #629 kansas

Absolutely made the right decision. Can't find that case in the government what to do manual. That's part of the art of medicine about which, among other things, Obama has nary a clue.

And that's exactly the opposite of what would have happened under a government-run, "evidence-based medicine" system like what they're proposing.

671 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:02:07pm

re: #659 Thanos

I can agree that she backed off from her original verbal grenade.

Do you agree that her original remark was not related to end-of-life provisions in the legislation?

672 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:02:18pm

re: #666 pingjockey

Take care Ping, rest well, get well.

673 Perplexed  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:02:33pm

re: #666 pingjockey

I will check that out. Merci'.
Now it's nap time!

Take care.

674 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:00pm

re: #661 taxfreekiller

The Democrats got dealt a pair of three's.

"We the People" are the dealers (aka pay the taxes do the work) and we have a full house. Aces and Kings.

Democrats under the leadership of Pelosi, Reid and Obama over played and over bet their tinker-toy pair.

IMO

TFK!

WTF?

Who's with me??

Where are the short cryptic posts??

675 Shug  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:00pm

re: #646 Charles

We're going to need a new course for medical students -- Spirit Examination.


What is the medicare reimbursement for a spirit biopsy ?

676 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:02pm

re: #621 keithgabryelski

One little nit to pick: Bush had just won re-election, so your comment about his having lost the trust of the electorate doesn't hold up.

677 Lincolntf  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:15pm

re: #630 Silvergirl

Can we judge Obama by the South Side of Chicago? He repped them for years and they're just as miserable as ever, but now they have extra murders.
Bravo, Barry, Bravo.

678 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:15pm

re: #662 Dianna

Why?

She was doing a fair job as governor of Alaska, prior to being raised to national prominence.

I happen to view her resignation as the key reason I'd not vote for her. But your attitude seems to be that she's an incompetent bimbo, period, and please don't distract you with any other facts.

Her resignation put paid to any good she might have done. That's all it took.

679 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:28pm

re: #628 buzzsawmonkey

You put death panels in
You take death panels out
You hold a vetted townhall where the voters scream and shout
You say we've got to pass bills now before they're hammered out
And that's what it's all about.

ROFL.

That's one of your best buzz.

680 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:34pm

ANd from the CRAZY left, the Rush Limbaugh of progressive talk show hosts... Ed Schultz...

SCHULTZ (04:53): Sometimes I think they want Obama to get shot. I do! I really think that there are conservative broadcasters in this country who would love to see Obama taken out. They *fear* socialism, they fear Marxism. They fear that the United States of America won't be the United States of America anymore.

And you thought the right had some sort of monopoly on kooky.

[Link: radioequalizer.blogspot.com...]

681 Shug  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:36pm

WE GOT SPIRIT YES WE DO. WE GOT SPIRIT HOW ABOUT YOU?!?

682 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:38pm

re: #631 Dianna

It's not a pretty discussion.

However, let's say that candidate 1 for a kidney will have to continue taking the medications that killed his original kidneys. Candidate 2 will not, but has hemachromatosis. Candidate 3 has neither issue, but is 85.

What do you do?

I yell for help from from the nearest "Death panel" created by government:
UNOS

683 garycooper  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:41pm

re: #623 Charles

Nobody said the House bill didn't have provisions for end of life care.

I was referring to the "death panels." Gotta admit, that phrase does send a pretty strong message. I also admit, I haven't actually read the beast itself -- if it's too long and confusing for my man Dingell, it's too much for me to handle.

684 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:03:52pm

re: #651 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Which one will be eligible to vote and pay taxes longer?

/

Are we allowed to look at their estates?

685 Psaturn  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:04:32pm

re: #646 Charles

We're going to need a new course for medical students -- Spirit Examination.

Charles, in my College Psychology studies, we had an entire class devoted on mysticism and mystical experiences...that would be in that area under "spirit".

686 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:04:33pm

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Breaking: Finance Committee drops “death panel” provisions from Senate bill

Touché.

687 Shug  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:04:47pm

In Canada you have to wait at least 9 months for your spirit to be examined.

688 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:05:01pm

re: #671 pianobuff

Do you agree that her original remark was not related to end-of-life provisions in the legislation?

No, I think she was playing on that provision, which is why she pulled it out of the hat in the second two posts on the subject.

689 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:05:15pm

re: #687 Shug

In Canada you have to wait at least 9 months for your spirit to be examined.


But you can fly to the US and usually get an appointment the next day.

690 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:05:40pm

re: #687 Shug

In Canada you have to wait at least 9 months for your spirit to be examined.

And even longer for your mind to be examined...

691 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:05:47pm

re: #683 garycooper

I was referring to the "death panels." Gotta admit, that phrase does send a pretty strong message. I also admit, I haven't actually read the beast itself -- if it's too long and confusing for my man Dingell, it's too much for me to handle.

There were no "death panels" in the bill, that's true. And now there's apparently no end of life provision, either.

Victory!

/dripping

692 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:05:50pm

re: #643 Shug

Look for a candidate 4 ?

Well...the problem is compatibility and time.

693 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:05:58pm

re: #616 Cato the Elder

Judging Palin by the merits of her service? You're kidding, right?

Fail.

I'm sorry Cato, but I agree with the others.
Your comments here are mysogenistic and disgusting.

And you know it.

694 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:06:03pm

re: #646 Charles

We're going to need a new course for medical students -- Spirit Examination.

Sounds like a new show for SyFy.

695 Shug  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:06:10pm

re: #689 rwdflynavy

But you can fly to the US and usually get an appointment the next day.

with Mistress Cleo

696 Psaturn  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:06:15pm

re: #666 pingjockey

I will check that out. Merci'.
Now it's nap time!

Welcome! The Rigid Gas Permeable lenses are custom made according to each eye and thus the reason why it can be done. The bad thing is getting used to it. It feels like sand in the eyes. People do get used to it.

697 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:06:21pm

re: #684 Dianna

Are we allowed to look at their estates?

I'll have the check the Federal Healthcare database to be sure. It might take a while. The program was underfunded and the equipment wasn't up for the job in the first place.

/

698 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:06:31pm

re: #664 Irish Rose

I don't consider fearmongering and exploitation of the vulnerable elderly to be a form of "good work", Walter.

Sometimes the end does not justify the means.

/two cents

Noted.

699 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:06:50pm

G-d, I hate her so much, that I love her.

/George Costanza

700 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:06:57pm

re: #687 Shug

In Canada you have to wait at least 9 months for your spirit to be examined.

What about chakra realignment? Does HealthCanada cover Feng Shui?

/

701 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:07:31pm

The Dems wouldn't be making that adjustment without knowing that the bill is in serious trouble. This is good news.

702 GGMac  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:07:35pm

re: #428 Charles

What in the world is wrong with that? Why would you want anyone to be making decisions based on some mystical magical ability to read their "spirit?" What does that even mean? Who can judge whether one person wants to live more than another?

Why is that statement supposed to be so outrageous?

THAT statement was not outrageous. I included it to remind readers of what had been said which brought up the subject (context) from which Obama went on to make his 'end-of-life' statement - which was outrageous, chilling - and the point of my comment. What Obama was basically saying is that will to live - not
YOUR will to live, not someone else's opinion of the validity of your will to live - will not be included in the "...difficult sets of decisions that we're (government) going to have to make."

Obama concluded by saying, "At least WE (government) can let doctors know (looseleaf notebook of rules, regulations, directives, vobabulary to be used, etc.) - and your mom know (doctor gets to break the news to your mom) - that you know what? Maybe this isn't going to help. Maybe you're better off, uh, not having the surgery - but taking, uhhh, the painkiller."

Translation: the Federal Healthcare Guidlines have pre-determined that you're too old (or whatever) for this procedure to be cost-effective to the taxpayers - you get no life extending treatment, or life-saving treatment. The fed will, however pay for painkillers to keep you comfy and out of our hair for as long as it takes for you to die so we can get you off the rolodex.

703 redstateredneck  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:07:50pm

Afternoon, {mah lizards}
Same old same, I see.

704 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:08:18pm

re: #701 Thanos

The Dems wouldn't be making that adjustment without knowing that the bill is in serious trouble. This is good news.

Yea! The Deathers won!
//

705 Cato  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:08:29pm

re: #574 Cato the Elder

"That senile old bastard..."

That says it all for me. I was not a huge McCain supporter, but "that senile old bastard" is more of a man than you or I will ever be or ever hope to be. He has proven his resolve, his humanity and his courage in ways that would humble 99.99% of other mortals. To deride him because you don't like his choice of VP is disgusting, particularly since SHE has shown more courage and resolve than 99.99% of other humans too.

706 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:08:34pm

re: #680 Walter L. Newton

ANd from the CRAZY left, the Rush Limbaugh of progressive talk show hosts... Ed Schultz...

SCHULTZ (04:53): Sometimes I think they want Obama to get shot. I do! I really think that there are conservative broadcasters in this country who would love to see Obama taken out. They *fear* socialism, they fear Marxism. They fear that the United States of America won't be the United States of America anymore.

And you thought the right had some sort of monopoly on kooky.

[Link: radioequalizer.blogspot.com...]

The problem with that logic is that most conservatives actually understand how the chain of succession works. I've never met anyone who wants Joe Biden to be president.

707 chotii  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:09:04pm

From my perspective, being required to appeal to a Government Panel of any sort for my health care is about as appealing as having to appeal to CPS for advice on childcare.

I have private insurance. I am quite aware how precarious and tenuous it is. And how expensive. But it does not, at least, wield the power of the Federal Government behind its decisions.

708 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:09:29pm

re: #678 Cato the Elder

Her resignation put paid to any good she might have done. That's all it took.

Excuse me, but that is not answering my question, which is about your attitude. I don't give a running jump at a stale donut about Sarah Palin, really. I don't understand why you're irrationally vile in your statements about her.

Please address my question, not the bolded portion, which is merely there as a disclaimer.

709 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:09:29pm

re: #693 Irish Rose

I'm sorry Cato, but I agree with the others.
Your comments here are mysogenistic and disgusting.

And you know it.

Misogynistic, possibly. I don't agree, but applying an actual adjective to me is certainly within the realm of the possible.

710 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:09:41pm

re: #502 Walter L. Newton

Be not confused. Palin drove this issue, and now the Senate Finance Committee has responded to her "fear mongering". Score on Obama Care proposal: Palin 1 / Obama 0. But the game is still early on. The fun continues, as Un-American citizens nationwide are attending HC TH meetings today. News at 11.

711 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:09:44pm

re: #691 Charles

There were no "death panels" in the bill, that's true. And now there's apparently no end of life provision, either.

Victory!

/dripping

The insanity, it burns.

712 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:09:50pm

re: #706 lobo91

The problem with that logic is that most conservatives actually understand how the chain of succession works. I've never met anyone who wants Joe Biden to be president.

Let's go for number three then...

OMG PELOSI!

NOOO!

713 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:10:05pm

re: #704 rwdflynavy

Yea! The Deathers won!
//

I'm betting the dems had that provision under discussion for removal well before the controversy popped up.

714 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:10:14pm

re: #688 Thanos

No, I think she was playing on that provision, which is why she pulled it out of the hat in the second two posts on the subject.

Thank you. Then we are in disagreement. I read her original statement and saw nothing but comparative effectiveness from the beginning and have gone on record here many times stating that was thrust of her comment, appropriately stated or not.

The good thing is that we're having good healthy debate here on numerous provisions in the bill, and I at least hope you would agree on that.

715 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:10:46pm
716 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:11:10pm

re: #714 pianobuff

Thank you. Then we are in disagreement. I read her original statement and saw nothing but comparative effectiveness from the beginning and have gone on record here many times stating that was thrust of her comment, appropriately stated or not.

The good thing is that we're having good healthy debate here on numerous provisions in the bill, and I at least hope you would agree on that.

Yep, that I can agree on. It's ok to disagree, these are definitely weighty issues.

717 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:11:11pm

re: #700 ArchangelMichael

What about chakra realignment? Does HealthCanada cover Feng Shui?

/

I think that's covered under some plans for San Francisco employees.

/extreme gloom.

718 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:11:15pm

re: #646 Charles

That's a divine thought!//

719 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:11:42pm

re: #710 Picayune

Be not confused. Palin drove this issue, and now the Senate Finance Committee has responded to her "fear mongering". Score on Obama Care proposal: Palin 1 / Obama 0. But the game is still early on. The fun continues, as Un-American citizens nationwide are attending HC TH meetings today. News at 11.

Un-American, really?

720 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:11:43pm

re: #698 Walter L. Newton

Noted.

Also, there are no grounds for believing the public's turn against ObamaCare is due to the influence of "the conservative outcry." See my #509.

I'm sure Republicans and wingnuts would love to take credit for the turn of public opinion, but their screeching and fear mongering may be largely epiphenomenal, if not detrimental. I say this as someone disgusted by Palin's, Steele's, and Gingrich's tactics, as well as by the would-be-blood-spiller of tyrants you were defending on the other thread, but who still hates ObamaCare with everything she's got, and reached her conclusions independently of any party's spin.

721 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:11:45pm

re: #676 Dianna

One little nit to pick: Bush had just won re-election, so your comment about his having lost the trust of the electorate doesn't hold up.

My recollection (and how I came to say what I said):

He had won a hard fought/closely held re-election campaign that did not give him a mandate to do much. When I look at the reasons for his re-election it wasn't about liking his policies or wanting him to lead on new policies as much as letting a sitting war president resolve the issues with a war that wasn't going so well: "let him finish what we started, there's a plan, this will all get resolved if we don't change captains mid-tack."

Be advised: those are my interpretations of events that not many other people hold (or at least I haven't found many people that hold them). But they colored my perception at the time and my perception of history.

722 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:11:52pm

re: #715 taxfreekiller

No future in it.

723 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:12:57pm

re: #695 Shug

with Mistress Cleo

the psychic or dominatrix?//

724 lorien1973  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:13:09pm

re: #691 Charles

Nope. No death panels, but less chance of receiving treatment once your age passes 50 years or so. So no "death panels" just a less chance of treatment.

Difference without distinction.

It's stunning that provisions that were never in the bill are now being removed. Makes sense. I suppose.

I mean. Come on.

Death panels (or something by another name) are the basis of the bill. You cannot lower costs without denying coverage to someone. Either Obama's famous (maybe you should take aspirin instead of getting a pacemaker) or whatever. Clearly, the goal is to deny services to people on a cost-benefit basis.

725 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:13:15pm

re: #708 Dianna

Excuse me, but that is not answering my question, which is about your attitude. I don't give a running jump at a stale donut about Sarah Palin, really. I don't understand why you're irrationally vile in your statements about her.

Please address my question, not the bolded portion, which is merely there as a disclaimer.

Fine.

Yes, I think she's an incompetent narcissistic bimbo and a disgrace to the voters of Alaska. Period.

And that's me being polite.

726 KenJen  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:13:19pm

See, the Dems. let the death panels die. What do you thik they'll do to your grandmother?///

727 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:13:23pm

re: #709 Cato the Elder

Admit it Cato, you just enjoy pissing women off.

728 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:13:35pm

re: #720 medaura18586

Also, there are no grounds for believing the public's turn against ObamaCare is due to the influence of "the conservative outcry." See my #509.

I'm sure Republicans and wingnuts would love to take credit for the turn of public opinion, but their screeching and fear mongering may be largely epiphenomenal, if not detrimental. I say this as someone disgusted by Palin's, Steele's, and Gingrich's tactics, as well as by the would-be-blood-spiller of tyrants you were defending on the other thread, but who still hates ObamaCare with everything she's got, and reached her conclusions independently of any party's spin.

I'm just reading and posting the polls, as so many love to do here.

"A new Gallup poll finds that the angry Town Hall protests against President Barack Obama’s health care reform are scoring points for the anti-health care side — and picking up support among independent voters."

[Link: themoderatevoice.com...]

729 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:13:56pm

re: #717 Dianna

I think that's covered under some plans for San Francisco employees.

/extreme gloom.

I'm sure sex change gender reassignment surgeries will be, as well.

730 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:14:23pm

re: #715 taxfreekiller

Death Panels have little to look forward to.

Are you suggesting they are a dead end?

731 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:14:48pm

re: #719 Walter L. Newton

Un-American, really?

I think that was supposed to be sarcasm.

732 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:15:15pm

re: #705 Cato

"That senile old bastard..."

That says it all for me. I was not a huge McCain supporter, but "that senile old bastard" is more of a man than you or I will ever be or ever hope to be. He has proven his resolve, his humanity and his courage in ways that would humble 99.99% of other mortals. To deride him because you don't like his choice of VP is disgusting, particularly since SHE has shown more courage and resolve than 99.99% of other humans too.

You made up those statistics on the spot, didn't you?

733 Alaska Kim  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:15:26pm

re: #725 Cato the Elder

Cato, are you sure you aren't commenting while sitting at the Netroots convention in Pittsburgh?

734 zelnaga  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:15:28pm

If the national health insurance plan being proposed included provisions for euthanasia and death panels, private insurance wouldn't have to worry about their bottom line being cut. Who would switch to an insurance that told you to die?

Further, these hypothetical euthanasia and death panels would only kill Sarah Palin's kid if Sarah Palin, herself, used that the national insurance policy as opposed to a private one. It's like... my own insurance policy only pays for fluoride treatment at the dentist (well, oral hygienist) if you're less than ten years old. That doesn't mean that all insurance policies do that, however. If all insurance policies were the same (save for their cost), shopping around (if you're not going to use the private insurer your employer uses) would be easy - just buy the cheapest one. Of course, in point of fact, it's not that easy.

735 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:16:05pm

re: #725 Cato the Elder

Fine.

Yes, I think she's an incompetent narcissistic bimbo and a disgrace to the voters of Alaska. Period.

And that's me being polite.

Oh, for the love of all beneficent deities!

Never mind. Whenever I see Palin mentioned, I'll just scroll past, because you're not rational on this subject.

736 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:16:41pm

re: #727 Irish Rose

Admit it Cato, you just enjoy pissing women off.

No, because he doesn't do so on other subjects.

737 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:17:07pm

re: #731 lobo91

I think that was supposed to be sarcasm.

Really? I'm not the only one to suggest otherwise. Maybe the commenter will confirm.

738 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:17:17pm

re: #727 Irish Rose

Admit it Cato, you just enjoy pissing women off.

Not just women. Cato's real name is Ms. Ann Thrope.///

(been wanting to use that one for a while)

739 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:17:45pm

re: #726 KenJen

See, the Dems. let the death panels die. What do you thik they'll do to your grandmother?///

lol

740 RajaBabu  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:17:52pm

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is in Africa (Nigeria I think) still whining about the
stolen election of 2000 where Gore encouraged a selective recount
of votes in Florida. Funny, she didn't mention the stolen election in
Minnesota of 2008 (Al Franken).

741 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:17:53pm

re: #725 Cato the Elder

Fine.

Yes, I think she's an incompetent narcissistic bimbo and a disgrace to the voters of Alaska. Period.

And that's me being polite.

Call me crazy, but sometimes I get this odd gut feeling that you're not completely on board with Palin yet.

742 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:18:06pm

re: #628 buzzsawmonkey

One of your best!

743 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:18:09pm

Robot approaching the Nazi car.
Robots save the day!

744 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:18:24pm

re: #732 Cato the Elder

You made up those statistics on the spot, didn't you?

83.8% of all statistics are inflated. The other 61% are lies.//

745 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:18:29pm

re: #650 Ben Hur

I don't see it exactly that way.

I seem to remember he brought it up quite early in his admin, but when he really tried to make a push the Dems made very similar arguements to what the Reps are making today about health care reform - the expense.

And they were against SS reform because of the expense when times were good.

I see similarities in the reactions.

I don't remember an expense argument, but I'm not saying there weren't fallacious arguments presented by Democrats.

The main argument (as I recall) were uncertainty in reform measures to have a certain standard of living (out paying) if everything was put in the stock market/private hands (please let's not argue how honest this argument is, I'm presenting the arguments I recall, not how valid they are).

746 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:18:56pm

re: #735 Dianna

Oh, for the love of all beneficent deities!

Never mind. Whenever I see Palin mentioned, I'll just scroll past, because you're not rational on this subject.

I admit I am a close second behind Cato when it comes to discussing Palin, and it's not pretty. But I always felt some dung was needed to counter the irrational promotion of and positive disposition toward her. I see very few people complaining about glassy-eyed Palin worshiping, but when it comes to Palin-bashing, the sensitivities are mightily honed.

747 iLikeCandy  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:19:06pm

I return hopelessly late to the discussion. I simply don't understand the flippancy about the dropping of the "death panels." Call 'em what you want, the objection to them was legitimate. Fear of them was legitimate. You actually think that Obama's health care reform is about health? You've never heard of bureaucratic mission creep?

748 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:19:15pm

re: #743 Killgore Trout

Stop thanking Skynet-- you're only encouraging it.

749 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:19:19pm

re: #165 zombie

OK then, let's get down to brass tacks. How would LGFers vote in this poll question:

---

Q: Assuming that Sarah Palin gets the Republican nomination in 2012, and Obama runs for re-election, and there are no significant or viable third-party candidates: How would you vote in the 2012 Presidential election?

a. Barack Obama
 b. Sarah Palin
 c. A "protest vote" for a minor third-party candidate
 d. I would refuse to vote.

---

I'm serious about this. Because it is likely to happen.

Let the voting begin!

The only way this is going to happen is if Obama is so strong at the end of his first term that the Republican candidate is a sacrifice. Even in that scenario, I doubt Palin will be in condition to do it by then.

750 Cato  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:20:05pm

re: #732 Cato the Elder


Out of 10,000 people being beaten in a Vietnamese prisoner of war camp, how many would refuse to go home because they would also release his men?

Out of 10,000 women in their 40's who already had children and who wanted a high-profile political career, how many would choose to have a down's syndrome baby because that is what they believe the right thing to do is?

751 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:20:06pm

re: #736 Dianna

No, because he doesn't do so on other subjects.

Yes, because hatred of women - and deriving some kind of perverse enjoyment from pissing women off - is the very foundation of mysogeny.

This is not new behavior from the elder Cato... unfortunately.
It's standard.

752 skiflorida  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:20:09pm

You kiddies are so young and innocent! It is no stretch at all, viewed against the backdrop of history, to imagine going from government sponsored/required "end of life counseling" to "end your life recommendation" to "sorry, you die now you burden to society". This has happened before.

753 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:20:15pm

re: #724 lorien1973

Clearly, the goal is to deny services to people on a cost-benefit basis.

The people the bill is meant for have no service now, so how is a bill that gives them some service even if it's limited denying them service since they in theory don't have it now?

Keep in mind that the public option is DOA already, it's the redline for the blue dogs and any R's who might vote for this.

754 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:20:16pm

re: #580 Creeping Eruption

Lawyers who defends lawsuits are the "defense bar". "Trial lawyer" connotes a lawyer who specializes in plaintiffs' cases, especially those involving personal injuries and medical malpractice. I'm a litigator myself, and I've both prosecuted and defended cases, as well as handling bankruptcy litigation, which usually is creditor v. debtor.

To a lawyer, the trial lawyers are a specialized group within the profession. Only 10% of lawyers litigate. The rest do transactional work, drafting documents for transactions. Of litigators, the Trial Lawyers have their own professional association, formerly the American Trial Lawyers Association, now the American Justice League. (They changed the name because the term "trial lawyer" has become so disparaged.)

They are notorious for making extremely large donations to Democratic politicians, although Arlen Specter and Orrin Hatch also consider themselves trial lawyers. John Edwards was their favorite son. And unlike other lawyers' associations, their conventions are closed to the press while they get secret briefings from members of the Administration and Congress on issues of interest to them. And of course, Obama has publicly said that tort reform with respect to medical malpractice, which would injure the economic interests of the trial lawyers, is off the table in this "reform" package.

That's what the term "trial lawyer" means.

755 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:20:16pm

It's seems as though the moral of the story I'm supposed to take away from this is: it's okay for a politician to be a disingenuous, fear mongering liar when it's suits our political aims. Only call it out when it's an opponent.

756 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:20:25pm
757 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:20:48pm

re: #744 calcajun

83.8% of all statistics are inflated. The other 61% are lies.//

Sex Panther, 70% of the time it works everytime!

758 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:21:04pm

Calling someone "mysogenistic" (!) for disliking Sarah Palin personally, politically and philosophically is like calling Medaura "anti-Albanian" for exposing teh stoopids in her native land.

Which people have done, on her blog.

759 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:22:10pm

re: #661 taxfreekiller

Reports of the demise of this package are premature. You're suffering from terminal euphoria if you believe otherwise. If the Democrats do nothing, Medicare and Medicaid go belly up. That's an outcome they can't, and won't, accept.

760 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:22:13pm

re: #743 Killgore Trout

Robot approaching the Nazi car.
Robots save the day!

The car's a Nazi? What car?

761 Shug  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:22:29pm

re: #755 Sharmuta

It's seems as though the moral of the story I'm supposed to take away from this is: it's okay for a politician to be a disingenuous, fear mongering liar when it's suits our political aims. Only call it out when it's an opponent.

Ding Ding Ding.
We have a winner

762 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:22:33pm

re: #747 iLikeCandy

the objection to them was legitimate. Fear of them was legitimate.

... because the fearmongers who exploit the vulnerable elderly are anything but.

763 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:22:34pm

re: #751 Irish Rose

Yes, because hatred of women - and deriving some kind of perverse enjoyment from pissing women off - is the very foundation of mysogeny.

This is not new behavior from the elder Cato... unfortunately.
It's standard.

Hey, shouldn't you be in the kitchen, baking cookies or something?


///JUST KIDDING, please don't hurt me

764 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:22:46pm

re: #753 Thanos

The people the bill is meant for have no service now, so how is a bill that gives them some service even if it's limited denying them service since they in theory don't have it now?

Keep in mind that the public option is DOA already, it's the redline for the blue dogs and any R's who might vote for this.

Do you think that applies to co-ops as well? I'm hearing the argument made by some that co-ops would be public-lite (like a Freddie/Fannie).

765 jill e  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:22:54pm

“Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men, the other 999 follow women”
— Groucho Marx

766 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:23:27pm

re: #758 Cato the Elder

Calling someone "mysogenistic" (!) for disliking Sarah Palin personally, politically and philosophically is like calling Medaura "anti-Albanian" for exposing teh stoopids in her native land.

Which people have done, on her blog.

They do!

767 GGMac  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:24:17pm

re: #527 spudly

End of life care constitutes the large majority of lifetime medical expense. The problem of course is knowing ahead of time who the lucky few % are that will benefit from aggressive care.

I think it's fair for an insurer to limit such aggressive care. If you are dumb enough to rely on the government as your insurer, then the taxpayer has a right to cut you off (that's what you get for ceding liberty over your health to the State, IMO)

That said, are there any other medical situations where counseling by the government is mandated? It seems like a bad idea to me entirely on that basis—the government should stay out of the doctor-patient relationship. It'd be fine for them to make turnkey living will solutions, etc available, but I don't think there needs to be a mandated conversation.

The problem of the future is that there will be no choice as to whether or not we want to cede our liberty over our health to the State (Fed). Obama's goal is single-payer coverage, and that insurer will be the Federal government. The 'despicable' private insurance companies will go out of business because the gov't as insurer will be cheaper for corporations, small business, and individuals. It won't be a question of being dumb enough to have the gov't as your insurer - there won't be any choice. And coverage is to be mandatory.

768 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:24:21pm

re: #765 jill e

“Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men, the other 999 follow women”
— Groucho Marx

Four out of five doctors prefer Camels. The other one would rather have a girl. --George Carlin.

769 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #752 skiflorida

You kiddies are so young and innocent! It is no stretch at all, viewed against the backdrop of history, to imagine going from government sponsored/required "end of life counseling" to "end your life recommendation" to "sorry, you die now you burden to society". This has happened before.

skiflorida

Registered since: Jan 22, 2009 at 6:57 pm
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

Get lost.

770 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:24:33pm

re: #766 medaura18586

Really? That's funny. How does it work with your sekrit Albanian jihadi role? ;p

771 HippieforLife  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:24:38pm

A LA screenwriter is bragging in the WSJ online about having set up a fake facebook account as Sarah Palin.

He thinks he's pretty clever; but, I think he is just a cheat.

772 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:24:43pm

re: #760 Dianna

The car's a Nazi? What car?

This car

More info here

773 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:24:50pm

re: #751 Irish Rose

I don't know that I agree with you entirely, but his feelings about Palin are - frankly - unhinged. If they ever were supported by anything except the most negative possible interpretations of anything associated with her, they no longer are.

But I do not - at this point - see evidence of generalized misogyny.

774 MJ  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:25:09pm

Will the Press report this?

Obama camp plants fake doc, Che fan at Jackson Lee forum

[Link: lonestartimes.com...]

775 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:25:10pm

re: #751 Irish Rose

Yes, because hatred of women - and deriving some kind of perverse enjoyment from pissing women off - is the very foundation of mysogeny.

This is not new behavior from the elder Cato... unfortunately.
It's standard.

Show me where I've displayed "hatred of women". Show me.

And I hope I piss off male Palinoids as much as female.

Do keep spelling it "mysogeny", by the way. It's so mistyfieing.

776 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:25:10pm

re: #752 skiflorida

You kiddies are so young and innocent! It is no stretch at all, viewed against the backdrop of history, to imagine going from government sponsored/required "end of life counseling" to "end your life recommendation" to "sorry, you die now you burden to society". This has happened before.

The other problem I have with end-of-life-counseling is that it's cheap already.

Insurance was once about indemnifying one against catastrophic loss. Now people seem to think it means cradle to grave free health care including hang-nail surgery... with clippers.

Go see your accountant or attorney.

777 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:25:25pm

re: #763 Desert Dog

Hey, shouldn't you be in the kitchen, baking cookies or something?

///JUST KIDDING, please don't hurt me

*WHACK!*

778 jcm  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:25:56pm

re: #760 Dianna

The car's a Nazi? What car?

Nazi Car...

Suspect in red VW Bug in police standoff

779 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:26:05pm

re: #775 Cato the Elder

Show me where I've displayed "hatred of women". Show me.

And I hope I piss off male Palinoids as much as female.

Do keep spelling it "mysogeny", by the way. It's so mistyfieing.

Miss Oginy, or Mrs., depending on marital status.

780 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:26:22pm

re: #764 pianobuff

Do you think that applies to co-ops as well? I'm hearing the argument made by some that co-ops would be public-lite (like a Freddie/Fannie).

That's the whole problem - nobody knows the ultimate effect on flat fee clinics, rural clinics, boutique clinics, elective surgery and a host of other things. That's where the problems lie.

781 Kragar  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:26:42pm

re: #757 rwdflynavy

Sex Panther, 70% of the time it works everytime!

Its made with bits of real panther, so you knows its good.

/Corporate training day is messing with my study time all day

782 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:26:59pm

re: #760 Dianna

The car's a Nazi? What car?

My Mother the Car. The Car's a Nazi. My Mother the Nazi?//

783 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:27:33pm

Short of replacing the entire Medicare/Medicaid system (which I favor, with a transition period), the only real question here is how do the Democrats close the $38 trillion Medicare unfunded liability gap?

The reason for all the smoke and mirrors is that they must cut Medicare and Medicaid benefits and jack up taxes to do it. And that's something they just don't want to admit. Hence the smoke and mirrors, which include dragging everyone into the public program eventually.

784 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:27:47pm
785 iLikeCandy  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:27:49pm

re: #769 Irish Rose

skiflorida

Registered since: Jan 22, 2009 at 6:57 pm
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

Get lost.

Stick around. I'm young and innocent, but I fully understand bureaucratic mission creep. I also understand that Obama's health care reform is not about health.

786 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:28:37pm

re: #774 MJ

Will the Press report this?

Obama camp plants fake doc, Che fan at Jackson Lee forum

[Link: lonestartimes.com...]

And if anyone remembers, this woman was a BIG topic here on LGF. Little surprise that we see her again.

Par for the course for a president who LIES openly to the country.

787 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:28:43pm

moving up...

788 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:28:50pm

re: #769 Irish Rose

You kiddies are so young and innocent! It is no stretch at all, viewed against the backdrop of history, to imagine going from government sponsored/required "end of life counseling" to "end your life recommendation" to "sorry, you die now you burden to society". This has happened before.


skiflorida

Registered since: Jan 22, 2009 at 6:57 pm
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

Get lost.

It's already happened in Holland...

789 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:29:19pm

re: #754 quickjustice

So your thoughts on "tort reform?" I see it come up a lot, but no one seems to be able to tell me why it is a necessity, only that "trial lawyers" are greedy, etc. and it will solve out health care problems. No one who says these things has yet been able to point me in the right direction.

In the interests of full disclosure, I will tell you that I too am a "litigator." In fact, I was once a med/mal "trial attorney." I am also married to a physician, so before people pile-on about med mal insurance premiums putting doctors out of work, and runaway med mal cases, I have intimate knowledge of both sides of the coin.

Having said that, I am looking for numbers, if anyone has them, about how "tort reform" is supposed right the craziness that is our health care system.

790 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:29:36pm

re: #780 Thanos

That's the whole problem - nobody knows the ultimate effect on flat fee clinics, rural clinics, boutique clinics, elective surgery and a host of other things. That's where the problems lie.

It would be nice to have one bill to go after or get behind. The sell job is really overpowering, and we don't even know what the real potion is yet.

I'm sensing, though, that Obama is way to invested in the process now (not just the bill) to take a time out and re-group.

791 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:29:46pm

re: #785 iLikeCandy

Stick around. I'm young and innocent, but I fully understand bureaucratic mission creep. I also understand that Obama's health care reform is not about health.

Good grief! Just because folks deplore the fear mongering doesn't mean we support ramming this legislation through.

792 redstateredneck  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:29:58pm

re: #774 MJ

Will the Press report this?

Obama camp plants fake doc, Che fan at Jackson Lee forum

[Link: lonestartimes.com...]


Busted.

793 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:30:27pm

re: #746 medaura18586

I admit I am a close second behind Cato when it comes to discussing Palin, and it's not pretty. But I always felt some dung was needed to counter the irrational promotion of and positive disposition toward her. I see very few people complaining about glassy-eyed Palin worshiping, but when it comes to Palin-bashing, the sensitivities are mightily honed.

I don't - as I've said a number of times! - care about Palin. Nor do I particularly care if you think dung needs tossing. Nor do I care about "Palin worship"; that will fade over time, and in fact already has begun to do so.

No, my issue is the irrational way that Cato the Elder approaches her.

Perhaps that is too fine a difference. I must insist on it, for I find the way he goes into low earth orbit and spews epithets on this subject troubling.

794 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:30:38pm

re: #775 Cato the Elder

B/T/W: Where's my translation of Frederick the Great's quote about dogs into Latin or ancient Greek?

795 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:31:03pm

re: #734 zelnaga

If the national health insurance plan being proposed included provisions for euthanasia and death panels, private insurance wouldn't have to worry about their bottom line being cut. Who would switch to an insurance that told you to die?

You will, when your employer does the math and realizes that it's cheaper to pay the 8% penalty than to pay for your existing coverage.

796 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:31:43pm

re: #774 MJ

Will the Press report this?

Obama camp plants fake doc, Che fan at Jackson Lee forum

[Link: lonestartimes.com...]

This certainly needs to be a thread. This is the same woman that we talked so much about before the election, who had the Che poster in her campaign office and we found out was a real nut case, causing all sorts of trouble for her neighbors and other wierd stuff.

Thread.

797 MJ  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:31:48pm

re: #786 Walter L. Newton

And if anyone remembers, this woman was a BIG topic here on LGF. Little surprise that we see her again.

Par for the course for a president who LIES openly to the country.

Yes, I remember the thread about that woman with the Che poster.
This story needs more circulation.

798 Dianna  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:31:49pm

re: #772 Killgore Trout

This car

More info here

Oh, I see. Sorry. I lost track of that story, since there didn't seem to be anything happening.

799 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:32:35pm

re: #719 Walter L. Newton

Pardon my missed / tag. Un-American only as in Speaker of the House, Pelosi's description. She's going to reap the whirlwind.

Regardless the political issue - attacking the US Public in her manner is unprecedented, divisive and will find it's response on 11/2/10. Of course, with the MSM in your breast pocket, one is apt to say anything in pursuit of your political goals. Mores the pity.

800 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:32:35pm

re: #794 quickjustice

B/T/W: Where's my translation of Frederick the Great's quote about dogs into Latin or ancient Greek?

Sorry, I've been too busy hatin' women. I'll have to get back to you. ;^)

801 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:33:09pm

re: #770 Sharmuta

Really? That's funny. How does it work with your sekrit Albanian jihadi role? ;p

It's merely a cover-up, a clever diversion... muahahahah!! ... (diabolically rubs hands together)

The curious thing is that I haven't even named any names in my blog because Albanian politics is a mob circus that makes the Italian political scene sound sane and respectable by comparison. The only one I've personally bashed is the communist dictator, by translating in English songs in his honor and putting them up on YouTube. I keep getting critical emails and comments by compatriots on a regular basis though, some of which are posted in English on my blog.

802 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:33:28pm

re: #799 Picayune

Pardon my missed / tag. Un-American only as in Speaker of the House, Pelosi's description. She's going to reap the whirlwind.

Regardless the political issue - attacking the US Public in her manner is unprecedented, divisive and will find it's response on 11/2/10. Of course, with the MSM in your breast pocket, one is apt to say anything in pursuit of your political goals. Mores the pity.

Got it, removed the ding. I agree with you 100 percent.

803 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:33:34pm

re: #784 taxfreekiller

This entire debate is about whose ox will get gored in terms of benefit cuts and tax increases. No politician likes having that discussion, so they're all blowing smoke, including the President of the United States.

And I don't think pointing out that oxen will be gored is "fear-mongering".

804 redstateredneck  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:33:47pm

re: #786 Walter L. Newton

And if anyone remembers, this woman was a BIG topic here on LGF. Little surprise that we see her again.

Par for the course for a president who LIES openly to the country.

Did you see the part where she's wearing the same outfit (for easier identification)?

805 Irish Rose  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:35:30pm

re: #775 Cato the Elder

Do keep spelling it "mysogeny", by the way. It's so mistyfieing.

You know you're right?
I need caffiene.

806 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:35:49pm

re: #793 Dianna

I don't - as I've said a number of times! - care about Palin. Nor do I particularly care if you think dung needs tossing. Nor do I care about "Palin worship"; that will fade over time, and in fact already has begun to do so.

No, my issue is the irrational way that Cato the Elder approaches her.

Perhaps that is too fine a difference. I must insist on it, for I find the way he goes into low earth orbit and spews epithets on this subject troubling.

What I find troubling: That after her batshit loony justifications for quitting her job and the subsequent demagoguettery, people still think she would be a good choice to run even a dog pound.

807 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:36:31pm

re: #801 medaura18586

I suppose. Every flavor of crazy is available on the internet.

808 spudly  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:37:08pm

re: #783 quickjustice

Short of replacing the entire Medicare/Medicaid system (which I favor, with a transition period), the only real question here is how do the Democrats close the $38 trillion Medicare unfunded liability gap?

The reason for all the smoke and mirrors is that they must cut Medicare and Medicaid benefits and jack up taxes to do it. And that's something they just don't want to admit. Hence the smoke and mirrors, which include dragging everyone into the public program eventually.

And the liability gap doesn't even count the fact that the care is frequently delivered with reimbursement below cost (an additional tax on providers, basically).

809 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:37:17pm

re: #789 Creeping Eruption

So your thoughts on "tort reform?" I see it come up a lot, but no one seems to be able to tell me why it is a necessity, only that "trial lawyers" are greedy, etc. and it will solve out health care problems. No one who says these things has yet been able to point me in the right direction.

In the interests of full disclosure, I will tell you that I too am a "litigator." In fact, I was once a med/mal "trial attorney." I am also married to a physician, so before people pile-on about med mal insurance premiums putting doctors out of work, and runaway med mal cases, I have intimate knowledge of both sides of the coin.

Having said that, I am looking for numbers, if anyone has them, about how "tort reform" is supposed right the craziness that is our health care system.

Here's a quick shot at the logic and a few numbers.

The focus seems to be mostly on punitive damages rather than lost wages and actual medical expenses.

I'd be interested in your comments...

/I'm not an attorney, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last nite

810 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:37:32pm

re: #648 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Refresh my memory on this, just exactly which loony party is it that's in power right now?

I thought I heard that right.

What is your point? Assume that my clairvoyant powers have failed for a moment.

While I'm waiting, I should note that this Broun loon is still a member of Congress, a position of fair power by most standards. We can guarantee that the Democrats retain the White House and the congressional majority, though, by ignoring his ilk or pointing fingers elsewhere when that doesn't work.

811 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:37:51pm

It is my rare and profound pleasure to present this link to you directly from The Huffington Post:

Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma

A memo obtained by the Huffington Post confirms that the White House and the pharmaceutical lobby secretly agreed to precisely the sort of wide-ranging deal that both parties have been denying over the past week.

The memo, which according to a knowledgeable health care lobbyist was prepared by a person directly involved in the negotiations, lists exactly what the White House gave up, and what it got in return.

It says the White House agreed to oppose any congressional efforts to use the government's leverage to bargain for lower drug prices or import drugs from Canada -- and also agreed not to pursue Medicare rebates or shift some drugs from Medicare Part B to Medicare Part D, which would cost Big Pharma billions in reduced reimbursements.

In exchange, the Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers Association (PhRMA) agreed to cut $80 billion in projected costs to taxpayers and senior citizens over ten years. Or, as the memo says: "Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion."

Representatives from both the White House and PhRMA, shown the outline, adamantly denied that it reflected reality. PhRMA senior vice president Ken Johnson said that the outline "is simply not accurate." "This memo isn't accurate and does not reflect the agreement with the drug companies," said White House spokesman Reid Cherlin.

812 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:38:17pm

re: #774 MJ

Will the Press report this?

Obama camp plants fake doc, Che fan at Jackson Lee forum

[Link: lonestartimes.com...]

Andrew Wilkow was having a field day with that story on his show as I was coming back from lunch.

813 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:39:23pm

re: #803 quickjustice

This entire debate is about whose ox will get gored in terms of benefit cuts and tax increases. No politician likes having that discussion, so they're all blowing smoke, including the President of the United States.

And I don't think pointing out that oxen will be gored is "fear-mongering".

I don't want anyone resorting to violence. But if they are not breaking the law, I'm not bothered by ones "volume" or level or kookiness.

Those who come across as nuts, they will be dealt with (as has been done here) as nuts.

But, at the same time, those nuts do attract attention to the issue. And it is evident that over all, these nuts have not hurt the protest to any large extreme, as we saw in the current Gallup poll.

"A new Gallup poll finds that the angry Town Hall protests against President Barack Obama’s health care reform are scoring points for the anti-health care side — and picking up support among independent voters." [Link: themoderatevoice.com...]

It's called freedom of speech. It's also called the freedom for you not to like the way the person is speaking.

Keep up the good work.

814 itellu3times  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:40:04pm

re: #4 Bubblehead II

Isn't this already being done in the hospice industry? End of Life counseling can and should play a vital role in the practice of medicine.

Yes, of course.

What's more, it's here already. Take anyone over the age of 65 - especially over the age of 80 - into any public hospital, and they will pretty much put you in a hammerlock to get you to sign the DNR. And if you're in a public hospital with any kind of serious problem, and a DNR, you don't come out again. At least, that's my take.

Discussing this with a couple of the "hospitalists" there, they say patients and families tend to the extremes - either they sign the DNR, or they want to maintain granddad as a vegetable as long as possible. I don't know how true that is, but it's what they told me.

I wonder how much worse an Obama Death Panel could make it anyway.

815 spudly  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:40:29pm

The real reason for tort reform is not the direct lawsuit/insurance costs, but to change the medical culture away from "defensive medicine."

Any such change will not happen quickly—you fight like you train, and we've had generations of docs trained this way now.

I'm not a doc, either, but I'm married to one ;)

816 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:40:38pm

re: #789 Creeping Eruption

I think the answer lies, not in "tort" reform, but in a renewed emphasis on "patient safety".

According to an authoritative IOM study (Crossing the Quality Chasm: A New Health System for the 21st Century 2001 at 4): "Safety flaws are unacceptably common, but the effective remedy is not to browbeat the health care workforce by asking them to try harder to give safe care. Members of the health care workforce are already trying hard to do their jobs well. In fact, the courage, hard work, and commitment of doctors, nurses, and others in health care are today the only real means we have of stemming the flood of errors that are latent in our health care systems."

The IOM report continues: "Health care has safety and quality problems because it relies on outmoded systems of work. Poor designs set the workforce up to fail, regardless of how hard they try. If we want safer, higher-quality care, we will need to have redesigned systems of care, including the use of information technology to support clinical and administrative processes."

And an earlier Institute of Medicine report (To Err is Human: Building a Safer Health Care System, November, 1999 at page 49) concurs: "People working in health care are among the most educated and dedicated workforce in any industry. The problem is not bad people; the problem is that the system needs to be made safer." (emphasis added).

Most important, because they focus on individual responsibility for medical errors, rather than upon improvements in the health care safety systems of which individuals are only a part, lawsuits and the current legal system erroneously target "bad people". By perpetuating its own obsolete myth (that individuals are to blame for medical errors), the current legal system diverts energy, attention, and huge amounts of human and financial capital away from efforts to improve patient safety into its own systemic "blame game". In this respect, the current legal system actually injures patient safety, and prevents the health care system from improving its safety record.

The IOM report adds that to make patients safer, "[H]ealth care organizations must develop a systems orientation to patient safety, rather than an orientation that finds and attaches blame to individuals."

The legal system's sole purpose is to find and attach blame to individuals. It is quite clear that its goals are completely out of sync with those of the patient safety movement. Worse, the legal system's systemic orientation towards finding and attaching blame to individuals is itself a serious barrier to real improvements in patient safety.

Why not look at alternative compensation systems that "spread the wealth" fairly and equally among all persons injured by medical errors, instead of making jackpot awards to the "lucky" few who suffer catastrophic injuries, as does the current legal system?

Workers compensation, which solved a similar problem with the tort system a century ago, could be a model for real reform.

817 redstateredneck  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:41:06pm

I don't care what you call end of life couseling, it's not something that I want to do with representatives of the federal effin government.
Period.

818 tradewind  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:41:46pm

Just as whack as Beck, and more irresponsible:
[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]
This guy is clearly a fomentor.

819 calcajun  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:43:08pm

re: #815 spudly

I'm not a doc, either, but I'm married to one ;)

Sigh. I picked the wrong profession. No one ever wants to play "lawyer".

820 Lynn B.  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:44:15pm

re: #817 redstateredneck

I don't care what you call end of life couseling, it's not something that I want to do with representatives of the federal effin government.
Period.

It's a moot point now, but nothing in that provision of the bill said anything about representatives of the government.

"... between an individual and a practitioner..."

practitioner being defined as a physician, physician's assistant or nurse practitioner. It's pretty clear.

821 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:44:54pm

re: #807 Sharmuta

I suppose. Every flavor of crazy is available on the internet.

That, and also, Albanians tend to suffer from a horrible inferiority complex because they've been history's sore losers in their region. In their native language, they trash themselves and each-other to a point that may be rivaled only by Americans' self-loathing and anti-Americanism -- but do understand national self-deprecation is extremely rare in ethnic nation states.

In the Balkans, almost all other nations have collectivist delusions of grandeur -- the Serbs think they're some sort of master race, the Greeks think mighty highly of themselves too, as the inventors of civilization. With Albanians there has been a disturbing inversion.

Even Michael Totten pointed it out to me, how surprised he was by the extreme self-deprecation that runs rampant in Albania's collective consciousness. But Albanians are ambivalent about it too: it's OK to trash yourself in your mother tongue because no one else understands you, but when you're even remotely critical of teh muthaland in English, it's like you're airing your dirty laundry... and everyone suddenly gets hurt and feels sensitive

It's really messed up.

822 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:45:03pm

re: #774 MJ

Will the Press report this?

Obama camp plants fake doc, Che fan at Jackson Lee forum

[Link: lonestartimes.com...]

this seems to be the original report:
[Link: patterico.com...]

823 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:45:28pm

re: #811 pianobuff

It is my rare and profound pleasure to present this link to you directly from The Huffington Post:

Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma...

This has been one of the most enlightening threads that we have had in weeks. So many links to polls showing Obama loosing the battle, even though he and his administration has tried to lie their way through this, links to phony doctors working for the progressives, articles indicating that the independents are starting to look at this, so much good news.

And I was listening to Arlen Spectre at a town hall meeting. A lot of ordinary folks asking questions that he couldn't answer or didn't like. And no, these were not seminar protestors.

And now this, probably uncovering the biggest little secret so far. Lies, lies, lies, (I got the links) and this thing is going down in flames.

Thanks for the thread Charles.

824 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:45:52pm

re: #808 spudly

You're correct. More frightening is that doctors and hospitals make up money-losing reimbursement rates by charging more to the private insurance plans. It's a cross-subsidy. When the private plans disappear, doctors and hospitals lose the cross-subsidy and end up out of business.

No more doctors or hospitals. What do the Democrats do then?

825 Scion9  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:47:02pm

re: #820 Lynn B.

There is language in some of the legislation dealing with a Federal Health care Work Force IIRC. Given that a physician very well could be a government employee.

826 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:47:14pm

re: #823 Walter L. Newton

This has been one of the most enlightening threads that we have had in weeks. So many links to polls showing Obama loosing the battle, even though he and his administration has tried to lie their way through this, links to phony doctors working for the progressives, articles indicating that the independents are starting to look at this, so much good news.

And I was listening to Arlen Spectre at a town hall meeting. A lot of ordinary folks asking questions that he couldn't answer or didn't like. And no, these were not seminar protestors.

And now this, probably uncovering the biggest little secret so far. Lies, lies, lies, (I got the links) and this thing is going down in flames.

Thanks for the thread Charles.

Have you seen Snarlin' Arlen's poll numbers, too? My prediction: retirement.

827 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:47:39pm

re: #824 quickjustice

You're correct. More frightening is that doctors and hospitals make up money-losing reimbursement rates by charging more to the private insurance plans. It's a cross-subsidy. When the private plans disappear, doctors and hospitals lose the cross-subsidy and end up out of business.

No more doctors or hospitals. What do the Democrats do then?

That's O.K. ...there's already a limit to how much hospitals can grow in the current plan.

//(there really is).

828 doubter4444  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:48:12pm

re: #428 Charles

What in the world is wrong with that? Why would you want anyone to be making decisions based on some mystical magical ability to read their "spirit?" What does that even mean? Who can judge whether one person wants to live more than another?

Why is that statement supposed to be so outrageous?

Sorry to say, that comment is only so outrageous because Obama made it.
Everyone jumped on him with the empathy comment over the SCOUTS nominee, and now that he says the opposite, they jump on him also.

Call him a filpflopper instead, that would be consistent, at least.

829 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:48:42pm

re: #825 Scion9

There is language in some of the legislation dealing with a Federal Health care Work Force IIRC. Given that a physician very well could be a government employee.

Read Sec. 2231. Government doctor? Hell, this section details a whole government HEALTH CARE BUSINESS, doc,s clinics, nurses, support personal, schools, medical boards, advisors, the whole thing lock, stock and single payer.

830 spudly  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:48:54pm

re: #819 calcajun

Sigh. I picked the wrong profession. No one ever wants to play "lawyer".

You haven't met my 5 year old daughter :D

831 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:49:42pm

re: #830 spudly

You haven't met my 5 year old daughter :D

I had one of those once! Now she's 25 and in law school ;-)

832 doubter4444  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:52:42pm

re: #746 medaura18586

I admit I am a close second behind Cato when it comes to discussing Palin, and it's not pretty. But I always felt some dung was needed to counter the irrational promotion of and positive disposition toward her. I see very few people complaining about glassy-eyed Palin worshiping, but when it comes to Palin-bashing, the sensitivities are mightily honed.

I'll admit, I'm a close third.
I can't stand the woman, I think she's an opportunist and a fake and would do this nation a great disservice were she ever to gain high office, much less POTUS or VPOTUS.

833 Last Turnip  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:52:49pm

This is from "best of the web": Blogger Tom Maguire digs into the question of whether ObamaCare will entail the establishment of "death panels," as Alaska's former governor Sarah Palin fears. Maguire finds this April interview with David Leonhardt of the New York Times:

Obama: So that's where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that's also a huge driver of cost, right?
I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80% of the total health care bill out here.

Leonhardt: So how do you--how do we deal with it?

Obama: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

So Obama says that there will be a "conversation" that is "guided" by experts, that "the country making those decisions" and then he says the experts guidance will not be "determinative." Troubling here is that he first says that the decision (about life or death) will be made by "the country" and then he vaguely implies that the decision is "yours". But is this the royal "you -- the country" or "you-the idividual".

No wonder people are wondering what he actually means, since he says it three ways: (1) The country decides, (2) the experts guide the country, (3) the experts guide you and you decide (where we cannot be sure who "you" is, is it "me" or is it "the country".

If you ask me, Obama envisions a panel of experts who will design a highly rationalized set of algorithims which will be used to determine each individual's priority number in a queue waiting for a treatment or a medicine. Rationalized rationing. Is that bad?

834 lobo91  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:53:21pm

re: #824 quickjustice

You're correct. More frightening is that doctors and hospitals make up money-losing reimbursement rates by charging more to the private insurance plans. It's a cross-subsidy. When the private plans disappear, doctors and hospitals lose the cross-subsidy and end up out of business.

No more doctors or hospitals. What do the Democrats do then?

This is pretty typical government thinking, actually. No consideration is ever given to second- or third-order effects of their decisions.

835 nonic  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:56:04pm

The UPDATE article from The Hill reads like a perfect example of "cause and effect."

836 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:56:35pm

re: #789 Creeping Eruption

My attorney sez: " Doctors bury their mistakes!" I believe that the argument is for reasonable caps of med/mal awards, but the issue is more complex that this, as you imply.

And, don't beet on me either, I work in a law firm, my wife's an MD in cancer research, and I have had about 8 MDs in my family, including a Med School Associate Dean for about 38 years who opened a couple of Med Schools. Yes, it is complex, but there is room for improvement - less costs due to current med/mal defensive medical efforts, for one. More work needed on this issue.

837 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:57:16pm

re: #809 eschew_obfuscation

Here's a quick shot at the logic and a few numbers.

The focus seems to be mostly on punitive damages rather than lost wages and actual medical expenses.

I'd be interested in your comments...

/I'm not an attorney, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last nite

Re: defensive medicine, it is a problem. I am concerned with the thoughts in the article though for the same reason people are concerned about obamas health care plans. Your article indicates these "expert courts" would potentially be making health care decisons, not doctors. In addition, anything that gets to these "courts" is already done, the defensive medicine has been practiced. I do not see an upside.

Along those same lines, in my State, the Stautes require a "med/mal mediation" before an injured patient can even file suit. I have never seen one of these come out pro patient. It only adds a layer of delay and cost to an already lengthy and costly process.

As for punitive damages, they do not come into play in a med mal case. If they do, then the doc should be facing criminal charges for causing an intentional harm (battery)not covered under any insurance policy, versus causing harm by negligence which is covered.

838 pianobuff  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 1:59:55pm

Here's something I've been wondering...

Maybe there is some over-the-top behavior but what if it's only .1% of what's happening (5 minutes in a 90 minute townhall, 1 townhall out of 10, etc.) but it feels like 50% or more because of what we watch.

Now if it's really the exception and not the rule, you are looking at a ton of people that are getting hands-on involved in the political process for the 1st time, or close to it. My guess is that the passion's carry out of the Town Hall environment and into their daily lives. They have told all their relatives, friends, neighbors, etc. and those people are telling other people because it's such a new thing. It's viral in a community that may have been somewhat immune to viral stuff.

Now these people are probably going nuts if their experience at a townhall was largely positive, but perhaps misportrayed by the media. They are telling twice as many people now that "it's not really the way they are reporting it". These are probably people that care very much about their reputation.

Who knows - maybe this isn't possible and the townhalls are really a mess, etc. Well, the whole thing might die on the vine before it has further impact.

But, if I'm only partially right, that's a bunch of people getting a different story out to a lot of people that the media isn't telling. And the way they will tell it is "Who are you going to believe? Me who was there or Katy Couric?". If these are everyday people, their friends will believe them before they believe Katy.

So we just don't know. We don't have actual data on each and every town hall that says what % was a little crazy and what went well. Which legislators looked like fools and which ones didn't. We have the reports on TV, which are credible in one respect if it's videotaped footage - but possibly a very incomplete and selective story.

Time will tell. Maybe the polls too.

839 skiflorida  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:00:27pm

re: #776 eschew_obfuscation

The other problem I have with end-of-life-counseling is that it's cheap already.

Insurance was once about indemnifying one against catastrophic loss. Now people seem to think it means cradle to grave free health care including hang-nail surgery... with clippers.

Go see your accountant or attorney.

Government monopolized health care (which is what this is all about, no matter what anyone pretends) will ensure that everyone believes they are entitled to free hang-nail surgery. And if granny has to die early so I can get my hang-nail surgery, well that's they way it is. Under a government health care monopoly it is quite possible that I won't be allowed to prolong my life even if I have the personal wealth to pay for the treatments. All they would have to do is say that any doctor who provides such "out of system" services can't participate in the "system". There are precedents.

840 redstateredneck  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:01:08pm

re: #820 Lynn B.

practitioner being defined as a physician, physician's assistant or nurse practitioner. It's pretty clear.

Sorry, just got back (pesky damn work). Practitioner paid by the federal government = federal government in my book.

841 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:01:33pm

re: #750 Cato

Sorry to break it to you, namesake, but you can be Alexander the Great and if you don't die on campaign there is nothing to stop you from becoming a senile old bastard. Which is what McCain revealed himself to be when he picked Palin. Which is why I declined to vote for him.

842 harpsicon  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:02:42pm

re: #411 Honorary Yooper

I found that odd as well when I saw it in the spinoff links this morning. I've been repulsed by the shouting, and I'd assumed others would be as well. Maybe this is a case of bad and worse though. As bad as the Republicans have been with the shouting, maybe the Democrats are just that much worse on presentation?

Or maybe it sets up an "extreme" so that rational conservatives can be in the middle. Without such an extreme, we are at the edge and thus more vulnerable, less convincing.

Sort of like the really left-wing guys screaming at Obama and making him look like a middle-road kind of guy, when of course he's anything but.

This is simply politics.

I'm rather surprised that so many people abhor it - sure it's over the top, but it's effective, the other side does it, and neither Rush nor Sarah is very likely ever to be president.

843 quiet man  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:03:15pm

Mccain revealed who he was years ago...and I wouild never have voted for him if he hadn;t picked Palin..the woman who woke the base up.

844 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:03:19pm

re: #837 Creeping Eruption

Re: defensive medicine, it is a problem. I am concerned with the thoughts in the article though for the same reason people are concerned about obamas health care plans. Your article indicates these "expert courts" would potentially be making health care decisons, not doctors. In addition, anything that gets to these "courts" is already done, the defensive medicine has been practiced. I do not see an upside.

Along those same lines, in my State, the Stautes require a "med/mal mediation" before an injured patient can even file suit. I have never seen one of these come out pro patient. It only adds a layer of delay and cost to an already lengthy and costly process.

As for punitive damages, they do not come into play in a med mal case. If they do, then the doc should be facing criminal charges for causing an intentional harm (battery)not covered under any insurance policy, versus causing harm by negligence which is covered.

Perhaps I misread that. I thought the "expert courts" were for determining awards rather than making medical decisions.

Other articles I have seen suggested a pool of funds from some sort of tax to provide awards from the courts.

We need accountability from the clinicians, but the expense of mal-practice insurance indicates how much of our total medical bill has nothing to do with medicine.

845 tradewind  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:03:33pm

re: #709 Cato the Elder

Here's your actual adjective:
Nitpicking.

846 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:03:48pm

re: #816 quickjustice

847 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:04:30pm

re: #823 Walter L. Newton

You know, Walter, I'm really beginning to think you might be happier with your own blog. Have you considered starting one? It takes about five minutes, and then you can control what's posted, without having to play passive aggressive games with me.

848 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:05:10pm

re: #816 quickjustice

I think the answer lies, not in "tort" reform, but in a renewed emphasis on "patient safety".

According to an authoritative IOM study (Crossing the Quality Chasm: A New Health System for the 21st Century 2001 at 4): "Safety flaws are unacceptably common, but the effective remedy is not to browbeat the health care workforce by asking them to try harder to give safe care. Members of the health care workforce are already trying hard to do their jobs well. In fact, the courage, hard work, and commitment of doctors, nurses, and others in health care are today the only real means we have of stemming the flood of errors that are latent in our health care systems."

The IOM report continues: "Health care has safety and quality problems because it relies on outmoded systems of work. Poor designs set the workforce up to fail, regardless of how hard they try. If we want safer, higher-quality care, we will need to have redesigned systems of care, including the use of information technology to support clinical and administrative processes."

And an earlier Institute of Medicine report (To Err is Human: Building a Safer Health Care System, November, 1999 at page 49) concurs: "People working in health care are among the most educated and dedicated workforce in any industry. The problem is not bad people; the problem is that the system needs to be made safer." (emphasis added).

Most important, because they focus on individual responsibility for medical errors, rather than upon improvements in the health care safety systems of which individuals are only a part, lawsuits and the current legal system erroneously target "bad people". By perpetuating its own obsolete myth (that individuals are to blame for medical errors), the current legal system diverts energy, attention, and huge amounts of human and financial capital away from efforts to improve patient safety into its own systemic "blame game". In this respect, the current legal system actually injures patient safety, and prevents the health care system from improving its safety record.

The IOM report adds that to make patients safer, "[H]ealth care organizations must develop a systems orientation to patient safety, rather than an orientation that finds and attaches blame to individuals."

The legal system's sole purpose is to find and attach blame to individuals. It is quite clear that its goals are completely out of sync with those of the patient safety movement. Worse, the legal system's systemic orientation towards finding and attaching blame to individuals is itself a serious barrier to real improvements in patient safety.

Why not look at alternative compensation systems that "spread the wealth" fairly and equally among all persons injured by medical errors, instead of making jackpot awards to the "lucky" few who suffer catastrophic injuries, as does the current legal system?

Workers compensation, which solved a similar problem with the tort system a century ago, could be a model for real reform.

My whole reply to you was just eaten. Suffice it to say, I do not think that resorting to a Work Comp scenario is the fix.

849 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:11:11pm

re: #836 Picayune

My attorney sez: " Doctors bury their mistakes!" I believe that the argument is for reasonable caps of med/mal awards, but the issue is more complex that this, as you imply.

And, don't beet on me either, I work in a law firm, my wife's an MD in cancer research, and I have had about 8 MDs in my family, including a Med School Associate Dean for about 38 years who opened a couple of Med Schools. Yes, it is complex, but there is room for improvement - less costs due to current med/mal defensive medical efforts, for one. More work needed on this issue.

Some doctors bury their mistakes. From my own experience (in a very Dr. freindly med mal state) we only reviewed about 3% of all med mal cases that came into our firm. Most were immediately rejected. The "close" cases require gobs of money to investigate. A review would consist of hiring an outside doc to do an evaluation. More often than not, our answer to the prospective client was so sorry for your loss, but bad outcomes are not actionable (most cases are bad outcomes as opposed to physician negligence). If we did take a case, we usually had anywhere between $25-50k in costs in the case before we even filed them.

850 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:14:33pm

re: #844 eschew_obfuscation

Perhaps I misread that. I thought the "expert courts" were for determining awards rather than making medical decisions.

Other articles I have seen suggested a pool of funds from some sort of tax to provide awards from the courts.

We need accountability from the clinicians, but the expense of mal-practice insurance indicates how much of our total medical bill has nothing to do with medicine.

Two points: Wisconsin(my State) has the Wisconsin Patients Compensation Fund. It is a $750 million dollar fund that picks up any med mal award or settlement over 1 million dollars. So, the exposure for ins. companies for every med mal case in Wisconsin is a million. Non-economic damages are also capped.

Your real point is that insurance premiums bear no relation to amounts paid. That is a problem with the insurance industry, not doctors or lawyers.

851 HippieforLife  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:15:44pm

My doctor had an interesting take on health care. He said that if/when the government steps in it will really be difficult for individual doctors to treat their individual patients. He says that some of medicine is by "gut feeling". He says that not all people are alike and don't always fit in to a neat little niche. What may work for many people may not work for others. A doctor needs to be able to make those decisions if he has the patients background and would like to maybe order another test, just to be sure.
I have faith in my doctor. I know that he saved my husband by simply seeing something on a blood test that didn't seem right to him. He was right. It was cancer.
So, doctors need to be in any equation regarding health care. No unseen board will have the benefit of their knowledge and experience.
I know that medicine is often a crap shoot, but care can not always be legislated.

852 Charpete67  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:17:08pm

re: #640 Charles

Apparently some people think you should look into their spirit and decide who has the strongest will to live.

maybe a reality show?...///

853 Lynn B.  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:18:05pm

re: #825 Scion9

There is language in some of the legislation dealing with a Federal Health care Work Force IIRC. Given that a physician very well could be a government employee.

re: #840 redstateredneck

Sorry, just got back (pesky damn work). Practitioner paid by the federal government = federal government in my book.

Please tell me you're kidding.

First you say you don't want the government involved in end of life counseling and then you say that any doctor that gets reimbursed (not paid) for his or her services by the federal government IS the federal government. Newsflash: if you're over 65 and you're being treated by a physician, chances are you're getting your health care from a seekret government agent, by your definition. Boo!

854 nonic  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:18:16pm

re: #851 HippieforLife

Isn't the saying that "medicine is an art, not a science"?

855 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:20:38pm

re: #850 Creeping Eruption

Two points: Wisconsin(my State) has the Wisconsin Patients Compensation Fund. It is a $750 million dollar fund that picks up any med mal award or settlement over 1 million dollars. So, the exposure for ins. companies for every med mal case in Wisconsin is a million. Non-economic damages are also capped.

Your real point is that insurance premiums bear no relation to amounts paid. That is a problem with the insurance industry, not doctors or lawyers.

That's interesting re: WI

I would think that insurance premiums would be based on expenses from a geographical/type of practice perspective ... like home and auto rates are based on location and driving record.

1 million in malpractice indemnity should be pretty cheap. My GP (Nebraska) pays $250,000/yr for his policy.

There's something wrong with our numbers though. There's enough competition in most states in the health insurance industry that over-large premiums would be eaten up by it. I suspect WI's cap may be unusual?

(thanks for the comments, btw)

856 HippieforLife  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:22:50pm

re: #854 nonic

I think it is a little of both. Some medical outcomes cannot be attributed to science alone.

857 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:26:34pm

re: #855 eschew_obfuscation

That's interesting re: WI

I would think that insurance premiums would be based on expenses from a geographical/type of practice perspective ... like home and auto rates are based on location and driving record.

1 million in malpractice indemnity should be pretty cheap. My GP (Nebraska) pays $250,000/yr for his policy.

There's something wrong with our numbers though. There's enough competition in most states in the health insurance industry that over-large premiums would be eaten up by it. I suspect WI's cap may be unusual?

(thanks for the comments, btw)

I wonder how many companies insure for med mal. I am guessing it is a few companies nation wide. For example, there is a national insurance company specifically for Ophthalmologists (they do not offer in Wisconsin) which means that they probably have a lock on the market, or at the very least, little competition. I could be wrong however, but I dont think docs have a choice to jump to am fam if they dont like geiko.

I am not sure how Wisconsin stacks up to other states as far as caps.

858 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:30:59pm

re: #833 Last Turnip

Obama: So that's where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that's also a huge driver of cost, right?
I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80% of the total health care bill out here.

Leonhardt: So how do you--how do we deal with it?

Obama: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

So Obama says that there will be a "conversation" that is "guided" by experts, that "the country making those decisions" and then he says the experts guidance will not be "determinative." Troubling here is that he first says that the decision (about life or death) will be made by "the country" and then he vaguely implies that the decision is "yours". But is this the royal "you -- the country" or "you-the idividual".

No wonder people are wondering what he actually means, since he says it three ways: (1) The country decides, (2) the experts guide the country, (3) the experts guide you and you decide (where we cannot be sure who "you" is, is it "me" or is it "the country".

It is horrible... and a perfect illustration of the social engineers' outlook. To someone like Obama, citizens' lives are interchangeable pegs whose aggregate benefit is the only relevant concern. He will make sure he optimizes the distribution of health-care resources so that they be spread as evenly as possible across as big a pool as possible, but only your young/productive years will be prioritized. Once you start actually needing intensive health-care in your later years, Obama's team of ethicists, scientists, and actuaries, will cut (or drastically restrict) the lifeline because, you know, those resources you are wasting while chronically ill or elderly, could be more productively employed toward extending someone else's youth. See, it's about the greater happiness for the greatest number of people--utilitarianism reduced to its basics. And the optimization of this abstract function is, of course, to be implemented by the aforementioned "experts." As if having a philosophy degree authorizes an "ethicist" to dictate to someone else how much care they deserve.

How this rationing by utilitarian calculus will be implemented is not through "death panels" though, but through comparative effectiveness research, which Dr. Emanuel and Dr. Blumenthal (two of the top architects of the bill) have pushed hard for the introduction of.

Some rationing is inevitable under the present conditions of medical technology: e.g. we cannot clone organs yet so people who need organ transplants must wait for a donor, whose organs, unless s/he has specified a recipient for them, will be assigned by a medical committee that takes into account the potential recipient's age and health. This makes perfect sense when rationing scarce resources provided by nature, to which no one in particular is entitled. But when we're talking about standard human-provided care, it's a different story. How about it -- if I want to save throughout my life so I can afford to take care of myself while old? That's what private insurance does. It doesn't ask "do you deserve care at your age and specific medical condition" but rather "can you afford it?" People who do, have a right to be provided vital care at any stage in life.

859 scion9  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:35:40pm

re: #853 Lynn B.


First you say you don't want the government involved in end of life counseling

Where did I say this?

then you say that any doctor that gets reimbursed (not paid) for his or her services by the federal government IS the federal government.

I didn't say this either. Why lump me in with 840 and then argue against a point I never made?

You said that the legislation didn't mention representative of the government, but instead physicians. One of the provisions apparently provides for the possibility of those physicians to be representatives of the government. Is the Surgeon General not a representative of the government because he is an M.D.?

860 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:41:09pm

re: #848 Creeping Eruption

Two elements are necessary to replace the tort system for medical malpractice: (1) you must compensate people injured by medical errors; (2) you must repair the systemic flaw that led to the error. For part (2), you need a feedback loop between identification of medical errors and the system of work that caused or permitted the error. With the current tort system, that can't happen, because doctors and hospitals are afraid to admit error, and by the time a case is adjudicated in court, all thoughts of a feedback loop have long evaporated in the scramble to avoid liability.

861 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:42:01pm

re: #851 HippieforLife

Much of medical practice is art, not science.

862 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:44:02pm

re: #858 medaura18586

That's what private insurance does. It doesn't ask "do you deserve care at your age and specific medical condition" but rather "can you afford it?" People who do, have a right to be provided vital care at any stage in life.

You might just as well openly endorse the negative corollary to that statement. Or would that be embarrassing?

863 Picayune  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:45:11pm

re: #861 quickjustice

True, and the Doctors take an oath!

Work beckons, later all.

864 formercorpsman  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:51:08pm

I have been seeing a number of references to hips, the ederly, costs, etc.

Does anyone want to take a stab at what this might be referencing?

865 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 2:51:11pm

re: #860 quickjustice

Two elements are necessary to replace the tort system for medical malpractice: (1) you must compensate people injured by medical errors; (2) you must repair the systemic flaw that led to the error. For part (2), you need a feedback loop between identification of medical errors and the system of work that caused or permitted the error. With the current tort system, that can't happen, because doctors and hospitals are afraid to admit error, and by the time a case is adjudicated in court, all thoughts of a feedback loop have long evaporated in the scramble to avoid liability.

I don't disagree. What do you think about these two stories? The first is a case I had, the second was related to me by my wife (yesterday as a matter of fact). Same story different outcomes.

I had a client who had spinal surgery. Surgery went perfectly. Surgeon finishes and leaves the or. Anethsesiologists extubates (removes breathing tube) the patient ho immediately developes breathing problems because he still has a load of anesthesia in him and his diaphram is not working the way it would once the meds wear off. The guy is in a Halo from the surgery so they cannot move his head to get an airway. They need to perform a crycthothorodectomy (think pen through the throat) but the crash cart is down the hall. The eventually get him intubated but he is brain dead from lack of oxygen.

Story number two: Same thing but there is a crash cart in the or and they save his life with no adverse effects.


the second doctor either understood that the standard of care required a crash cart in the or or was following hospital policy to have one there.

866 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 3:05:15pm

G'night

867 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 3:07:15pm

re: #862 Cato the Elder

Which would that be? The negative corollary you wonder whether I am too embarrassed to endorse?

868 tradewind  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 3:09:11pm

re: #861 quickjustice

Yes, but occasionally surrealism and impressionism can mess you up.

869 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 3:19:04pm

re: #867 medaura18586

Which would that be? The negative corollary you wonder whether I am too embarrassed to endorse?

"People who [cannot afford it], have no right to be provided vital care at any stage in life."

870 JohnH  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 3:43:43pm

How do you know that the care has been delivered in the last six months of life UNTIL AFTER THE PERSON IS DEAD?

871 retief_99  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 3:49:06pm

The emphasis in the health care bill is to save money. If as the government states about 70% of costs are accrued in the last year of life, what do you think the emphasis will be on when the doctor or counselor comes to visit for the end of life discussion? If you trust the government to do the right thing you are naive, at best, at worse your just stupid. READ the bill, judge for yourself what they are trying to do.

872 chotii  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 3:58:01pm

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

I would trust this Government to judge what is best for my my healthcare, like I would trust CPS to judge my parenting skills.

Which is to say, not at all.

873 Drider  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 4:00:09pm

What they want to do is pay a highly trained "counselor" to visit all of the old people at predetermined times as well as predetermined intervals to plead with them to live as long as possible to put a "massive strain" on their bosses resources, you know, just like every other company would.

Of course , last I heard this was a "voluntary" meeting between the costly old person and the highly trained counselor, so there is no chance of it ever becoming a mandatory function.

I think folks should buck up a bit on how most if not all of these socialist health care scheme's work, they all deny timely care and/or ration it.Slapping American in front of the health care ruse won't change the fact that the government will be forced to make disgusting choices that will only benefit...the government,

Basically, as dear old dad used to say..."If the government knocks on your door and say that they are there to help you...your screwed".

874 Last Turnip  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 4:05:06pm

re: #869 Cato the Elder
People are provided with food stamps, welfare, public housing and public attorneys, at no cost to them, funded by taxpayer dollars, to cover basic food, clothing, shelter needs. But they are not provided gourmet food, mansions, and designer clothing. Similarly, people should be provided basic health care if they cannot afford it, but should they be provided with free Viagra? Cosmetic surgery? Sex change operations? Hair transplants? How about a million dollar a month drug treatment? The issue here is that food quality, clothing quality, housing quality, we all recognize that these exist on a continuum of cost from very cheap to very expensive. But we do not use the same framework for evaluating health care. Because we, ourselves, do not pay for it, and do not know what it costs, or whether a lower cost treatment is better or whether the higher cost treatment is worth the cost. We have been protected from knowing about real costs, so we ignore them, and claim that everybody needs equal access to everything available. We do not think this way about the other basic needs for food, clothing, shelter. Should we apply the same rules to the basic needs: food, clothing, shelter, health? Or is health care somehow different?

875 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 4:13:44pm

re: #874 Last Turnip

I suppose I'll wait to answer your reasonable questions until I know how Medaura defines "vital".

876 retief_99  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 4:14:59pm

My mother is 85 years old. Last year she had her hip replaced. Does anyone believe that the governments new health care bill would allow that to happen? She would still be confined to her house, barely able to walk from one room to another. I can't show you that in writing, but I am 100% sure that is exactly what will happen to millions of elderly Americans.

877 shortshrift  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 4:29:02pm

re: #428 Charles

What in the world is wrong with that? Why would you want anyone to be making decisions based on some mystical magical ability to read their "spirit?" What does that even mean? Who can judge whether one person wants to live more than another?

Why is that statement supposed to be so outrageous?

I think that the point here is that the patient herself had the will to live . She was exhibiting the spirit. No mystical mind reading by third parties. Obviously, nobody can judge whether her will to live is stronger than another's.
Bureaucare must assume that everyone within a care category - over a certain age, needing a pace-maker, say - has the same will to live. At some point in the categories of need v. cost v. survival chances, the system is simply not going to offer the pace-maker. It will look into proxies for "will to live": smoking, lifestyle, employment etc. to determine the care meted out.
Where patients are able to pay for their own care, they can allocate their resources accordingly. The will to live is relevant only to the payer for the services. And the will to live may be thwarted - either through lack of funds or through bureaucare rationing. The anxiety is that many people will be giving up the ability to pay (directly or through good insurance) for treatment, should they decide to do so, by permitting so much of their discretionary income (and capital, eventually) to be taxed to pay for the nation's care. The very wealthy - now a diminished sector - will self-insure, or off-shore insure. The care they buy will be exactly commensurate with their will to live. The egalitarian/fairness/redistribution justification for single payer systems (and that is where bureaucare leads to ) is always what make them unworkable , self-defeating, and indifferent to the individual.

And, pace Obama, doctors routinely take into account an individual's will to live - or positive frame of mind - in recommending treatment (whether it is a long course of medication, or a difficult operation.)

878 GGMac  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 4:30:30pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

I am not a god-damned government asset. If that's your definition of "citizen", you are a statist/collectivist, no matter how you define yourself.

I believe Cato's point is that Obama/government healthcare would be considering you to be either a government asset, or liability; that this is how citizens would be perceived by Obama/gov't.

879 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 4:37:14pm

Sorry to see this:
[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Les Paul dead at 94

880 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 4:53:40pm
881 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 5:09:42pm

re: #875 Cato the Elder

I suppose I'll wait to answer your reasonable questions until I know how Medaura defines "vital".

Though I suspect any difference of opinion between us will come down to the definition of "right", not of "vital".

For me it has theological as well as economic dimensions. But then I'm one of those "religuous" people Bill Maher loves to hate.

882 retief_99  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 5:31:45pm

re: #880 Lloyd

Yes, if the is no harm or foul why did the Senate bail out? I am sure when the doctors come to the nursing home and counsel the elderly, they will say"don't worry, everything is fine all taken care of, are you comfortable and looked after, hope you get well soon"?

883 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 5:39:03pm

re: #881 Cato the Elder

PIMF

..."religulous"...

884 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 5:41:06pm

re: #881 Cato the Elder

re: #869 Cato the Elder

"People who [cannot afford it], have no right to be provided vital care at any stage in life."

I don't believe anyone has any "right" to force that resources belonging to others be diverted to their own use and benefit. If vital care grew on trees, I'd be glad to see everyone reach out for it and be able to enjoy it -- it would warm up my heart. But it doesn't grow on trees. It must be provided for by other people, who must work hard to produce it.

The only ultimate right I believe in is to be left alone, not coerced, not violated, not robbed or looted from. So long as I'm not hurting anyone, I ought to be left free to do whatever I want. Only negative rights are genuine -- the only positive rights I welcome are those basic ones (such as of due process) needed to defend negative rights. So I feel very strongly about people's right to keep the fruits of their labor to the maximum extent possible.

You can't provide health care for some who can't afford it without infringing on others' right to keep the money they busted their asses to earn. But I have resigned myself to having to live in a society that will take my wealth and spread it around. That's fine. I can live with it. I'm not happy about; don't think it's right. I find it immoral and corrupt, but c'est la vie.

What I cannot and will not tolerate are unnecessary sacrifices, beyond what's required to merely cover those who can't afford basic services. For example, though I'm not cool with my tax proceeds going toward funding strangers' children's education, I know arguing against it is a losing battle. Hell, I'll do it. It's a cause I would have donated to anyway if left to my own charitable voluntary devices. What pisses me off is that I can't just directly help poor families to finance their children's education through school vouchers. No, I have to contribute to public schools, run by the government and the teachers' union, to which children are arbitrarily assigned to via school districts, and which provide disastrous standards of education, intellectually bankrupting generation after generation of children, and whose operations are full of waste and inefficiency.

About this health-care bill, what pisses me off is not having to subsidize people who can't afford health care; I would still gladly do that if it were executed through debit cards issued only to those who can't afford health care (analogous to food stamps). But I have to contribute to a giant government bureaucracy that will affect health care for everyone, not just those who can't afford it. At least with education, if you enough money you can send your children to private schools. With this proposal in health care, even if I had all the money in the world but were old or suffered from a chronic disease, I could not be allowed to spend extra in order to gain access to a medical service that the government's panels, ethicists, scientists, and bureaucrats have decided I don't deserve based on my age and medical condition. All health-care resources (or their vast majority) would be collectivized in bureaucratic pool, to which you can only have access if the government decides to allow you to.

And that's majorly f***ed.

885 Sloppy  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 5:43:04pm

At 75 I presume I am one of the oldest lizards. If the government wants me to undergo "end of life" counseling it had better send a platoon of Marines to take me in. And assign the whole Justice Department to overturn my "living will," which specifies the terms under which I will check out. It says that if I become irreversibly vegged out, the doc turns off the machines but keeps the morphine coming.

886 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 5:56:30pm

re: #885 Sloppy

At 75 I presume I am one of the oldest lizards. If the government wants me to undergo "end of life" counseling it had better send a platoon of Marines to take me in. And assign the whole Justice Department to overturn my "living will," which specifies the terms under which I will check out. It says that if I become irreversibly vegged out, the doc turns off the machines but keeps the morphine coming.

The provision was completely voluntary, but in any case it's outta there now.

887 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 5:57:11pm

re: #882 retief_99

Yes, if the is no harm or foul why did the Senate bail out?

Ever hear of "politics?"

888 Sloppy  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 6:23:34pm

Re: Charles, 886

Thanks for the correction, Charles. I guess I missed that.

889 Trudger  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 6:33:42pm

So does this mean that Sarah Palin doubled down... and won?

890 AbuNaudrey  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 7:21:53pm

I have been MIA from this site for a while and now I think most of you have lost your marbles. Did you read all of Palin’s blog? Did you not see even the Washington Post has some reservations about end-of-life counseling and palliative health care being discussed in a section about cutting health care costs? Do you really think this would be voluntary, when the man at the top thinks that my 92-year-old grandmother, who broke her hip in February of this year, should have been given a Motrin and sent home? You are all positively nuts. BTW - my grandmother is now healthy enough to continue living on her own; she just doesn’t clean the gutters anymore…no thanks to Obama.

891 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 7:22:45pm

re: #881 Cato the Elder

Though I suspect any difference of opinion between us will come down to the definition of "right", not of "vital".

re: #884 medaura18586

[...] Only negative rights are genuine [...]

So I was in my right mind when I called it a matter of how one defines "right". [Palin wink]

In my eyes, either negative rights result in positive ones through custom and law, or they are empty promises.

Full response tomorrow, I was out getting dinner and trying to repair in my mind my half-baked limerick on Ombamapharmacare two threads up. Sneak preview:

Obamamaniacal health cares
Have had much of the land feeling wealth scares.
But never you fear.
Big Pharma is here
To show us the harvest that stealth bears.

Meanwhile, I'd be curious to know where the statement in your antepenultimate sentence is actually borne out in the legislation. And here I thought wealth could buy anything but happiness! If it's true, I fear that I (for one) may owe Sarah Palin the biggest apology since the Walk to Canossa.

892 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 7:56:52pm

re: #889 Trudger

Bye now. Nice collection of sock puppets there.

893 GGMac  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 8:15:54pm

re: #824 quickjustice

You're correct. More frightening is that doctors and hospitals make up money-losing reimbursement rates by charging more to the private insurance plans. It's a cross-subsidy. When the private plans disappear, doctors and hospitals lose the cross-subsidy and end up out of business.

No more doctors or hospitals. What do the Democrats do then?

1994: I was an outpatient for a minor surgical procedure - on a holiday, so no regular hospital office personnel working. So they didn't know I had no insurance.

A couple of weeks later, I received an itemized statement from the hospital billing dept - for over $5000. Not a bill; just a copy for my records of the bill for the insurance company. A day or so later a letter came from the hospital wanting my insurance info. Called and told them - no insurance. Ohhh; sorry for the mixup.

A couple of weeks later I received an itemized bill. It was - item for item - exactly half the amount 'the insurance provider' had been billed.

I didn't know it was business-as-usual; thought it was fraud, and checked with the state attorney general's office, as this state had no insurance commissioner. That's when I found out why insurance and hospital charges are so high. Rude awakening. But better than being under the thumb of the Federal government.

894 chotii  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 8:19:29pm

I had a 'conversation' today with somebody from my HS class, on Facebook. She claims to be one of the 47 Million people who is uninsured (not uninsurable, just can't afford it). She appears quite willing to insist that I lose what I have (excellent private insurance), so she can have what she wants (any insurance at all, even mediocre). Of course, I would have that *too*, so I wouldn't have reason to complain.

Something is wrong there.

895 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 8:53:00pm

Wow. Lots of sock puppets showing up tonight.

896 Gus  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 9:28:17pm

Charles, thought you might find this interesting if you haven't seen it already. It's a proclamation signed by Sarah Palin which reads:

Healthcare Decisions Day

WHEREAS, Healthcare Decisions Day is designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves and to encourage the specific use of advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions. WHEREAS, in Alaska, Alaska Statute 13.52 provides the specifics of the advance directives law and offers a model form for patient use.

WHEREAS, it is estimated that only about 20 percent of people in Alaska have executed an advance directive. Moreover, it is estimated that less than 50 percent of severely or terminally ill patients have an advance directive.

WHEREAS, it is likely that a significant reason for these low percentages is that there is both a lack of knowledge and considerable confusion in the public about Advance Directives.

WHEREAS, one of the principal goals of Healthcare Decisions Day is to encourage hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities, and hospices to participate in a statewide effort to provide clear and consistent information to the public about advance directives, as well as to encourage medical professionals and lawyers to volunteer their time and efforts to improve public knowledge and increase the number of Alaska’s citizens with advance directives.

WHEREAS, the Foundation for End of Life Care in Juneau, Alaska, and other organizations throughout the United States have endorsed this event and are committed to educating the public about the importance of discussing healthcare choices and executing advance directives.

WHEREAS, as a result of April 16, 2008, being recognized as Healthcare Decisions Day in Alaska, more citizens will have conversations about their healthcare decisions; more citizens will execute advance directives to make their wishes known; and fewer families and healthcare providers will have to struggle with making difficult healthcare decisions in the absence of guidance from the patient.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, Sarah Palin, Governor of the state of Alaska, do hereby proclaim April 16, 2008, as:

Healthcare Decisions Day in Alaska, and I call this observance to the attention of all our citizens.

If we go to Foundation of End of Life Care we find:

Recent Events:

In 2006, the Foundation brought attorney and author William Colby to Southeast Alaska for two free public lectures. Mr. Colby spoke in Ketchikan at the SE Alaska Discovery Center on Thursday October 19, 2006 and in Juneau on Friday October 20, 2006 at the UAS Egan Library. The title of his talk was, "From Cruzan to Schiavo: What have we learned?" Mr. Colby is the author of two books related to planning for the end of life: "Unplugged; Reclaiming our right to die in America"(2006) and "Long Goodbye: the deaths of Nancy Cruzan" (2002). Additionally, he is a Senior Fellow with the National Hospice and Palliative Organization and a national spokesperson for their "It's About How You Live" national campaign.

...

Other link: [Link: www.foundationforendoflifecare.org...]

897 el polacko  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:52:26pm

years ago, i used to 'joke' that the younger generations would have so little interest in providing for their elders that they would 'encourage' us to die for the general good of society ... now they are writing such provisions into health bills. maybe it's not spelled out in so many words, but the handwriting is certainly on the wall. the president, using his own grandmother as an example, talked about how denying grannies hip replacements might be a good idea if that somehow generally benefitted society as a whole. well gosh, think of the savings if granny just took the blue pill and kicked off a little early !
meanwhile, it's interesting how a comment on facebook or a tweet from palin is enough to convince the congress that there need to be major changes made in their bill... and yet, SHE is the idiot ? i'm not a big palin supporter, but it seems that she certainly scored a win on this one.. and by barely lifting a finger.

898 Scorch  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:52:06am

I have been unable to afford health insurance for the last couple of years and only carry a cost share type of insurance which is fine for us because we do not go to the doctor for a cold or minor injuries but it would be catastrophic if we have a severe problem health wise. Hopefully this fall we will be able to return to our normal health insurance. Being an employer who only uses part time help during the year and the fact my business will have to pay for those part time employees and their families health care is already making us lessen these people to limit our exposure. We have always paid for on the job injuries and helped employees families financially when they have been in dire straits but having the federal government tell me what to do is unacceptable. In regards to this death panel debate we need no stranger helping us decide what is right for us, our living wills are very specific in this. What the hell is happening to personal responsibility in this country?

899 FrogMarch  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:01:36am

I don't want the GOVERNMENT to provide me with any "end of life counseling".

/but thanks for the thought, holy congressional leaders and big daddy gub.

900 Perplexed  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:02:17am

re: #610 medaura18586

I had to retreat my upsding when I read your last paragraph. Manufacturing base? Really?

Hmmm, I do field service work for a machine tool company. Recently I had the unpleasant task to take part in a tear down of a $1.5 million dollar setup of metal forming equipment. The factory closed getting rid of 500 workers when a major contract was canceled. The equipment went to another country. The workers? Who knows, but those jobs aren't coming back anytime soon.

Quick, name:

Five tire manufacturers (not retailers) here in the US.
10 mills making cloth here in the US.
10 silicon foundries still operating in the US.
10 Defense contractors manufacturing electronics systems in the US.

We're hemorrhaging jobs across the board in the manufacturing area and when those jobs go away we're sunk. Even on the nuclear weapons front, we've forgotten how to make a vital component for our older weapons (code name Fogbank).

How many Starbucks employees do we need? How many investment bankers do we need? I've seen IT workers who refused to go out onto the manufacturing floor because it was hot, dirty and noisy, when they were asked to provide some assistance and when confronted whined about it. Too bad that they were overhead since they didn't actually make anything that the company could market.

Not really angry, but disappointed that folks don't realize how important our manufacturing base is to our national security.

People outside of manufacturing think that a production line can be whipped together in no time and have products rolling off the end of the line. They think that canceled aircraft programs have no lead time when it comes to restarting the line. Clue, even if you have everything you need (i.e. drawings, fixtures, tooling, etc) it would take between 12 to 24 months to even begin production of a military jet when former suppliers went out of business.

901 MPH  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:55:57am

re: #512 Kosh's Shadow

Next, Mitt Romney gives interviews in which he proposes a plan that would cover everyone, but with private insurance, with subsidies for those who can't afford it; coupled with tort reform and policies to really get rid of bad doctors.
The Republicans in Congress and the Senate, sensing their chance, propose it.
Voters approve, asking in all town meetings why the Romney proposal isn't being considered.
Then I woke up.

I think there are a handful, or perhaps a small crowd of republican house members who are attempting something along those lines...

902 MPH  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:57:33am

re: #900 Perplexed

Unions strong-arming, over-regulation, and over-taxation are your problem...not free trade...

903 MPH  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 7:06:39am

re: #886 Charles

The provision was completely voluntary, but in any case it's outta there now.

The overriding problem is -- the entire monstrosity of ObamaCare is not voluntary...I don't care about the specific provisions so much as the specter of a new trillion dollar health care bureaucracy out of which nothing good will happen.

I agree with Kejda -- the idiotic rhetoric Palin (consistently) uses is self-defeating for people who want to preserve and restore their freedoms.

904 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 7:38:32am

re: #891 Cato the Elder

In my eyes, either negative rights result in positive ones through custom and law, or they are empty promises.

I don't understand what you mean there at all. The only promise of negative rights is to be left alone, and that the government intervene in your life only to protect you from violence committed by others or to discipline you if you are trying to inflict violence or fraud onto others.

In this, I am strictly Jeffersonian. It is he who wrote:

"Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry… The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

If he were alive today, I'm sure he would add "personal morality, and opinion as to what anyone is entitled" to the list of concepts irrelevant to our civil rights.

Meanwhile, I'd be curious to know where the statement in your antepenultimate sentence is actually borne out in the legislation.

My antepenultimate sentence being "With this proposal in health care, even if I had all the money in the world but were old or suffered from a chronic disease, I could not be allowed to spend extra in order to gain access to a medical service that the government's panels, ethicists, scientists, and bureaucrats have decided I don't deserve based on my age and medical condition."

There are a few competing drafts for this legislation circulating on Capitol Hill, and the details are blurry, but Obama has decided to keep the public option on the table, and I am confident that the "public option" would severely marginalize private insurance companies because it is not restricted by often contradictory inter-state rules and regulations private companies are crippled by, can keep digging a hole and staying afloat even if it were operationally unprofitable because it can always dip into the treasury purse. Employers will no longer have the same tax incentives for covering their employees with private insurance, but it's not as if individuals will get any tax credits toward insurance expenditures, so pretty much, the private insurance industry will shrivel up to almost nothing. Also, all countries that have introduced the private option (at least that I know of) have ended up running private providers almost entirely out of business and often outlawing them! Canada and the UK are examples that come to mind.

All the known provisions of the proposed legislation give me every good reason to believe that private insurance will effectively be killed, and Obama's statement that those satisfied with their current plans will be able to keep them is nothing but a shameless lie, by which he is trying to introduce a wedge in the debate and lull voters into a false sense of security. Wherever the public option is introduced, it ends up monopolizing health care. It's not an option, it's ultimately the only option we are reduced to, and is operated by a single-payer system.

And here I thought wealth could buy anything but happiness!

Who said anything about happiness? What I am talking about is civil rights. No one's happiness but mine is any of my business. The Constitution guarantees our freedom to pursue it; nothing more.

If it's true, I fear that I (for one) may owe Sarah Palin the biggest apology since the Walk to Canossa.

If what is true? That wealth can buy happiness, or that ObamaCare would ration care to the elderly and the chronically ill? If the former, I fail to see the connection. Though I'm sure Sarah Palin is as happy as can be about her book deals, speaking engagements, and big bucks they entail.

905 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 7:49:47am

If the latter, you owe her no apology. Obama himself admitted as much in the speech fragment I quoted:


THE PRESIDENT: So that's where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that's also a huge driver of cost, right?

I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.

LEONHARDT: So how do you - how do we deal with it?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

Could it be any clearer what direction he is going with that? No, there won't be "death committees" and no one is going to come kill the elderly or impose euthanasia on them. But there will be across the board rationing, like there is today in Canada. Everyone needing a treatment will be given a number to get in line, and it's not first come first served. The prioritizing is based on "need" and comparative effectiveness research. You clearly did not read the materials I promoted here a few times already. I have been to an emergency room in Canada before and had to be bumped down to the bottom of the list every time someone else walked in after me, whom the nurses judged to be in graver condition than me. I could not choose to pay out of my own pocket for timely care anywhere in the country, because that's not how the single-payer option works.

That's for the needs-based prioritizing, and that's to say nothing about comparative effectiveness research, by means of which the neediest people of vital health care, ironically enough, are the ones denied it. In the UK in 2006, older patients with macular degeneration, which causes blindness, were told that they had to go totally blind in one eye before they could get an expensive new drug to save the other eye.

So no, there are no death committees, no one will forcefully euthanize anybody. But there will be committees withholding vital care if your numbers (age, health index, cost of treatment, etc.) don't yield a positive score on the comparative-effectiveness algorithm. And that to me is unacceptable in its own right.

906 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:23:14am

Life expectancy at birth by rank for USA, Canada and the UK:

Canada

total population: 81.23 years
country comparison to the world: 8
male: 78.69 years
female: 83.91 years (2009 est.)

United Kingdom

total population: 79.01 years
country comparison to the world: 36
male: 76.52 years
female: 81.63 years (2009 est.)

United States

total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

[Link: www.cia.gov...]

907 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:26:50am

And Cato, I did some more research and it's much worse than I gave it credit for. No more private insurance! Nada, zilch. Not because it will be unfairly run out of businesses by the competitive privileges granted to the public option, but because new enrollment will be outlawed! And that's how my antepenultimate sentence is actually borne out in the legislation.

Check out page #16 of the HR 3200:

SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.
3 (a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE DEFINED.—Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the
9 first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in 12 this paragraph, the individual health insurance 13 issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.

(B) DEPENDENT COVERAGE PERMITTED.—Subparagraph (A) shall not affect the subsequent enrollment of a dependent of an individual who is covered as of such first day.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS.—Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.
---

So this is the end of private insurance. No option, no choice.

908 JohnH  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:27:08am

re: #905 medaura18586

So no, there are no death committees, no one will forcefully euthanize anybody. But there will be committees withholding vital care if your numbers (age, health index, cost of treatment, etc.) don't yield a positive score on the comparative-effectiveness algorithm. And that to me is unacceptable in its own right.


And, if anyone thinks that the current bunch (or the prior bunch for that matter) will make those decisions without politics entering into the equation is naive or a moron. For now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're naive if you believe that.

I see today that Ezekiel Emanuel is moving away from some of his earlier writings on these ethical issues. If anyone is keeping as a scorecard on the changing view, it's something like this:

John Holden, science czar who wrote approvingly of forced sterilizations, eugenics and population control: his views have "EVOLVED"

Barack Obama, POTUS who supported single payer, his views have "EVOLVED"

Ezekiel Emanuel, comparative analysis guru, his views have "EVOLVED"

Seriously, does anyone believe that? They only change their views when they get caught.

909 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:27:13am

re: #906 Gus 802

Your point being?

910 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:28:21am

re: #907 medaura18586

Source: [Link: energycommerce.house.gov...]

911 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:31:19am

re: #909 medaura18586

Your point being?

That the United States ranks behind Canada and the UK in life expectancy. Typically this is an indicator of the general health of a nation.

912 JohnH  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:33:36am

re: #906 Gus 802

Life expectancy at birth by rank for USA, Canada and the UK:


I think if you control for auto accidents and deaths by homicide, our life expectancies are actually much higher.

913 MPH  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:38:29am

re: #911 Gus 802

That the United States ranks behind Canada and the UK in life expectancy. Typically this is an indicator of the general health of a nation.

The total life expectancy numbers are skewed, mainly because of a higher childhood mortality rate in the US, particularly for black american babies -- causes still largely unknown, considering the higher mortality rate cuts across all social strata for black americans.

914 curtain of oz  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:46:33am

I think the euthanasia argument appears extreme and makes the conservative backlash look 'fringe' although in truth, it is not far from the truth. Just see Obama's comments on "pain killers instead of that operation." Rationing is central to the debate, which, by nature, is the determination of life and death based on a bean counter determining "need" versus cost. This IS the debate.

915 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:02:16am

Hey, Medaura, good day!

People often have a hard time with my sense of humor. When I said, "And here I thought wealth could buy anything but happiness!", I meant just that. Of course it can't buy happiness. No need to point out the difference between that and the pursuit of it.

But it can buy anything else that's for sale, including - in many cases - justice, or injustice, depending on your point of view. (The only reason OJ didn't get off this time was the video.) Or illegal items, like contraband, drugs, or snuff films.

Hence I would be shocked if wealth under any government plan could not buy better medical treatment. Whatever the intent of the law, it will be got around by money. As it should. You're absolutely right: If you can afford better than what's on offer at the government shop, you have a right to pay for it.

It may actually surprise you to know that I am against this bastard bill. It is, to coin a phrase, a partial-birth abortion. It started from false premises and is now so compromised that it would, I agree, be worse than the non-system it is trying to "reform".

916 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:07:41am

re: #911 Gus 802

That the United States ranks behind Canada and the UK in life expectancy. Typically this is an indicator of the general health of a nation.

Of the health, but not necessarily of the quality of health care. Lifestyle factors, attitudes to risk taking, sexual behavior, gun control, diet -- these are what determine longevity on average. Not to speak of the many illegal aliens included in the statistics of the U.S.

As for the quality of the health care services in those countries, those statistics mean NOTHING at all. NOTHING. You know how I know?

Albania:

total population: 77.96 years
country comparison to the world: 51
male: 75.28 years
female: 80.89 years (2009 est.)
---
United States

total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)
---

The difference in longevity among the general populations of those countries is by 0.15 years, almost statistically insignificant. And Albanian women have higher longevity than American women. But I've been born and raised in that country, and I can guarantee you that Albanian hospitals are squalid, high end appliances are wholly lacking, and people travel to neighboring Greece, Turkey, and the really lucky ones to the U.S. for any serious procedure. The level of health care in Albania is almost at third-world levels, but judging from the longevity stats, you'd think its health service industry were on par with the U.S.'s

917 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:09:41am

re: #916 medaura18586

Wow, I just realized, in fact, that Albania comes immediately after the U.S. in world rankings of longevity (51st vs 50th), according to the CIA factbook. That's curious! and hilarious... and speaks volumes on the validity of comparing health care systems according to countries' relative longevity stats.

918 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:14:41am

re: #900 Perplexed

But, Perplexed, in our brave new Starbucks-and-Stockbroker-based future, everyone will have a community college associate's degree or a BS in BS, and we'll all be highly-paid brain workers or at the very worst baristas. Things will no longer break and if they do, we won't need to repair them, because they'll all be imported cheaply from Pakistan, where the Taliban will work in high-tech factories supervised by Indians and Chinese and owned by American stockholders. Everyone will have a portfolio of some paper or other, and if you need, say, a pipefitter, we can provide one trained on the fly in a week or two by forcibly retired journeymen or masters whose unions no longer exist because shoddy work is better than expert craftsmanship if you have to pay real money for the latter. Those people who would rather work with their hands than their keyboards will find employment cleaning keyboards. We have made it so that many of those few remaining manufacturing jobs in this country no longer support a single worker, much less a family, so they will all be herded into re-education camps - sorry, community colleges - and taught to pick stock options. It's all good, paper wealth is the shizzle, we'll be fine.

919 theuglydougling  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:18:13am

Pardon my extreme lateness to this thread, but when did "bimbo" become a legitimate line of attack? Why not just go all out and use the "C" word? Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

920 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:29:19am

re: #915 Cato the Elder

Hey there,

I know you were not serious about money buying happiness, and I was merely humoring you too with my response. I'm glad to hear you're against this monstrous bill, though I suspect it's for reasons entirely different from and perhaps contrary to mine.

This way of thinking, however, I cannot wrap my head around:


But it can buy anything else that's for sale, including - in many cases - justice, or injustice, depending on your point of view. (The only reason OJ didn't get off this time was the video.) Or illegal items, like contraband, drugs, or snuff films.

Hence I would be shocked if wealth under any government plan could not buy better medical treatment. Whatever the intent of the law, it will be got around by money. As it should. You're absolutely right: If you can afford better than what's on offer at the government shop, you have a right to pay for it.

Are you proposing that people with money can get away with anything, including murder (hence the reference to OJ being done in only by the video)? That is seriously absurd. The only reason he got off the first time around was a racially biased incompetent clown-jury.

Are you proposing that it's OK to legally forbid people who can afford better, private care, from acquiring it because, well you know, they have the money, so they can bribe doctors and health providers anyway and take care of themselves? And you are saying this should be the case? Or am I getting confused by your sense of humor again?

Yes, I believe I have the right to pay for something better than what's on offer at the government shop if I can afford it, but if only you and I agree on that right, it only remains in my head. If the government doesn't recognize it, I go to jail for trying to exercise that right, no health private practitioners would exist to provide such health services anyway, except for back alley butchers (I can assure you many rich women died from botched abortions when they were illegal), whose care, by definition, would not be superior to what's offered on the government shop.

And I do agree that money can buy justice -- but that's not through affording people to get around the law, but rather affording them to lobby the government to make laws which run counter to justice. That's what this bill would do.

921 Perplexed  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:39:19am

re: #918 Cato the Elder

But, Perplexed, in our brave new Starbucks-and-Stockbroker-based future, everyone will have a community college associate's degree or a BS in BS, and we'll all be highly-paid brain workers or at the very worst baristas. Things will no longer break and if they do, we won't need to repair them, because they'll all be imported cheaply from Pakistan, where the Taliban will work in high-tech factories supervised by Indians and Chinese and owned by American stockholders. Everyone will have a portfolio of some paper or other, and if you need, say, a pipefitter, we can provide one trained on the fly in a week or two by forcibly retired journeymen or masters whose unions no longer exist because shoddy work is better than expert craftsmanship if you have to pay real money for the latter. Those people who would rather work with their hands than their keyboards will find employment cleaning keyboards. We have made it so that many of those few remaining manufacturing jobs in this country no longer support a single worker, much less a family, so they will all be herded into re-education camps - sorry, community colleges - and taught to pick stock options. It's all good, paper wealth is the shizzle, we'll be fine.

That's funny. I like the sarcasm and dry humor. Updinged you for just that.

922 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:56:42am

re: #610 medaura18586

I had to retreat my upsding when I read your last paragraph. Manufacturing base? Really?

re: #900 Perplexed

[...] Quick, name:

Five tire manufacturers (not retailers) here in the US.
10 mills making cloth here in the US.
10 silicon foundries still operating in the US.
10 Defense contractors manufacturing electronics systems in the US. [...]

re: #918 Cato the Elder

But, Perplexed, in our brave new Starbucks-and-Stockbroker-based future, everyone will have a community college associate's degree or a BS in BS, and we'll all be highly-paid brain workers or at the very worst baristas. [...]

re: #921 Perplexed

That's funny. I like the sarcasm and dry humor. Updinged you for just that.

Not to change the subject here - OK, well, that's what I'm doing - but I seem to have attracted competing dings with my satirical comment. I don't understand Medaura's "Manufacturing base? Really?" comment, so I can't say whether I agree or disagree. What does that mean, M.? In any case my comment was not directed at you, merely a response to Perplexed's #900.

I do know that one reason Germany is still a major player in exports is that they have nurtured and protected their quality manufacturing base through apprenticeship programs and cooperation with unions. This means they can compete on the basic of quality, not mere cheapness, with countries with much lower standards of living. And if we think we can maintain our position in the world just by being the world's biggest consumer, we're kidding ourselves.

There's a book on the bestseller lists right now called "Shop Class As Soulcraft", about the fallacy we've bought into that everyone will be happier with an associate's degree in some bogus discipline or other and a spot in a cubicle somewhere. Not everyone can or should or wants to be an entrepreneur or a Dilbert.

923 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:13:24am

re: #922 Cato the Elder

Google Video
924 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:24:20am

re: #923 medaura18586

Sorry, I don't have an hour of undivided attention. Maybe you could tell me in your own words?

925 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:27:24am

re: #924 Cato the Elder

My words are just words. Milton Friedman has the facts and figures, the claim to authority, and he debates people whose views you may identify with. If the subject is not of the utmost importance to you though, it makes sense that it's not worth an hour of undivided attention.

926 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:38:48am

re: #925 medaura18586

Favorited for future viewing, then.

Facts, figures and debate I like. Never been much for the argumentum ex auctoritate, though. Big names mean nothing to me. I have to understand with my own brain, and then I don't care if the truth comes from a Friedman or a Krugman.

But whether I can understand with my own brain is open to question. I fear it is too late for me to become in any wise competent as an economist, and I've always been shockingly bad at math, so I suppose I'll remain a mere satirist, poking fun at all sides in their self-certainty and extremism. I don't claim to be able to know the truth among many competing claims, but I do have a highly sensitive bullshit detector. And I most emphatically do not believe that homo oeconomicus is the measure of all things.

Which makes me, I guess, little better than a would-be court jester.

927 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:43:13am

re: #926 Cato the Elder

P.S. I find it interesting and in a very real way heartening to know that people like you and I can reach the same conclusions starting from, as you correctly noted above, widely diverging premises. It gives me hope (I hope not an illusory one) that there is more than one path to sanity.

928 Curtain of Oz  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:48:01am

What is happening under the surface is the fear of the growing specter of socialism - the marriage between the federal government and big business. This does not promote competition, free markets, or efficiency. When criticizing capitalism's so-called structural defect - monopoly - it is wise to bear in mind that no monopoly can exist without the sanction of government. (Doubt that? Name it.) Which makes the situation something other than capitalism. A good article on the subject: [Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

Pick up a copy of "Free to Choose," by Milton and Rose Friedman. Turn to the back, to Appendix A. Appendix A is the American Socialist Party Platform of 1928. All 14 points of the platform are listed, with the Friedmans' comments in parentheses. Each one of the 14 points has been adopted by the Democrat Party. Several have been adopted by the Republican Party, as well. Many of the goals that are listed in the platform are now fact. Some, like Social Security and Unemployment Insurance, were enacted quickly; others, like nationalization of the railroads (Amtrak) took far longer, or are as yet only partially accomplished. Look at the list of the ten cities with the highest percentage of people living below the poverty line. What do all ten have in common? Long-time Democrat Party rule. Now one could say that Democrat Party rule helped to cause this impoverishment - and I do - but what is more germane and less remarked upon is that once these cities were rendered economic basket cases, the Democrat Party became supreme, virtually unchallenged. Ponder this: "The Government breaks your leg, hands you a crutch and then says, "See! Without me you couldn't walk!" That's the future coming to you. Do not gloss over the "partisan" differences in an attempt to find "common ground." You will be selling out millions of your fellow Americans, misguided people who were first deceived into supporting Democrats, then pauperized by Democrats, and finally made utterly dependent on Democrats. You can mix one gallon of chocolate ice cream with one gallon of vanilla ice cream. They are basically the same. What do you get when you mix one gallon of vanilla ice cream with one gallon of cow manure? The mixture will taste a lot more like cow manure than like ice cream, won't it? Witness what is going on in Washington. Let me quote Benjamin Franklin "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." I have issue with the erosion of personal liberty and the destruction socialism will bring to this country.

929 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:52:54am

re: #927 Cato the Elder

PIMF: "[...] like you and me [...]"

I obviously need that retreat in September.

930 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:53:43am

re: #926 Cato the Elder

I don't find argumentum ex auctoritate valid either, but it does a hell of a job at grabbing people's attention. Anyone can make sense, but there's no way to know in advance where to look for someone making sense because the pool of idiots is immense. Big names are lightning rods, that's all.

931 dhimmishelter  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 11:49:16am

Might Sarah have been on to something?

Score One for Sarah Palin on the
Healthcare Reform Death Panels
U.S. News & World Report, by Peter Roff

Palin Is Not Wrong
American Spectator, by Greg Scandlen

The removal of this language can be viewed as an admission that former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin knew what she was talking about. Yesterday (Thursday) the Senate Finance Committee dropped language from its health care reform package that Palin and others had suggested would eventually lead to mandated end-of-life counseling sessions for seniors.

Not bad for a University of Idaho graduate. Perhaps if she had attended an Ivy league campus, she would not have been able to discern the disturbing references to the triage language in the bill

If no such language existed, then why did it need to be removed?

932 Wrycoder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 12:49:50pm

[Ed. note: this user account has been blocked.]

Nice peanut galley you've got here, Charles. You indicate the theme, "I'm getting a distortion headache", and a chorus of gibbering syncophants rises in adulatory confirmation.

Have any of you RTFA? What, exactly, do you disagree with? It's a well reasoned warning regarding the slippery slope of government controlled health care. Where is the distortion? Charles, how about actually taking a position, instead of just kicking this cage you supervise and being amused by the resulting noise?

Palin: "Nationalized health care inevitably leads to rationing. There is simply no way to cover everyone and hold down the costs at the same time. The rationing system proposed by one of President Obama’s key health care advisors is particularly disturbing. I’m speaking of the “Complete Lives System” advocated by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of the president’s chief of staff. President Obama has not yet stated any opposition to the “Complete Lives System,” a system which, if enacted, would refuse to allocate medical resources to the elderly, the infirm, and the disabled who have less economic potential."

Perhaps you guys agree more with Reid and Pelosi, who are jamming this thing down our throats. Certainly Palin's remarks are more intelligent than anything said in response on this thread. If you guys are classical liberals, how about pushing back on the socialism instead of denigrating the people who are doing so? This thread could be moved to Kos, where it would fit in seamlessly.

Although I've been reading this blog for years, I find little lately that's interesting. Plus, all the add-ons are jamming my Opera browser, so waiting for the lock-ups to time out is getting quite aggravating, especially when viewing comments, and I'm tending to avoid visiting for that reason, also.

933 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 1:11:23pm

re: #932 Wrycoder

I'll make it easier for you to avoid being bothered by me and my "gibbering sycophants" by removing your account.

No need to thank me!

934 FabioC.  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 2:36:18pm

[Ed. note: this user account has been blocked.]

I have a position that is quite far from what seems to be the consensus in this blog lately.

I think that the Americans who love liberty, self-reliance and a government with limited powers cannot afford to play nice anymore. They ought to draw clear limits and be ready to resist fiercely those who trespass. And so that there will be no misunderstandings, I mean also the use of force.

The rights that shall not be infringed and the only legitimate powers of the federal government are written clearly, and is all much there is to say.

935 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:05:36pm

re: #934 FabioC.

And so that there will be no misunderstandings, I mean also the use of force.

And with that, you no longer have an LGF account. Bye now!

936 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:38:39pm

re: #932 Wrycoder

"Syncophants"? Are they anything like honcos?


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