ABC News vs. the Euthanasia Death Panels

ABC News has been running a series of pretty good “fact check” segments on the proposed health care legislation: Watch Our Fact Check Series — All in One Place - The World Newser.

Here’s their piece on the Sarah Palin “death panel” smear and the distorted accusations of euthanasia.

FLV Video

I’ve seen some people declaring that Palin “won the debate” on the end of life section of the House bill, because that section was removed. Well, call it a “victory” if you like, but what really happened was that House Dems reacted for political reasons like politicians do: they tallied up the political calculus and decided to avoid the conflict by removing the end of life counseling and care entirely. An unprincipled attack was met by an unprincipled lack of spine. Victory!

An empty pyrrhic victory based on distortions and falsehoods. I’d like to believe Republicans are capable of more meaningful victories than that.

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790 comments
1 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 3:58:32pm

The Sarahcuda strikes agaun!!

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 3:59:34pm

That's one vote in favor of empty pyrrhic victories.

3 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:01:03pm

Well, The war she is fighting is against empty Pyrrhic democrats with delusions of grandeur.

4 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:01:35pm
I’d like to believe Republicans are capable of more meaningful victories than that.

That would be nice but sadly, it seems, there is no place for integrity in politics today.

5 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:02:52pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

That would be nice but sadly, it seems, there is no place for integrity in politics today.

Politicians with integrity seem to be few and far between nowadays, unfortunately...

6 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:03:40pm

re: #5 talon_262

Politicians People with integrity seem to be few and far between nowadays, unfortunately...

7 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:03:41pm

When the entire attack from the Obama admin is based on the purest of lies and the cleanest distortions available.,..we should atke what victories we can get.

No matter what was in that Bill, if they had rammed it thru, Obama would have signed it, then end of story.

8 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:04:54pm

I am disappointed again and again by people who provoke divisiveness over co-operation. It's rampant and beneficial for both sides political but it seems very detrimental to us as citizens. I don't like it one bit! No sir!

9 Lioness  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:05:16pm

‘Death panel’ is not in the bill… it already exists. Snuck through Obama stimulus bill.Your text to link... Sorry, I don't know how to lable the link.

Read this article...

10 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:06:15pm

re: #7 quiet man

When the entire attack from the Obama admin is based on the purest of lies and the cleanest distortions available.,..we should atke what victories we can get.

No matter what was in that Bill, if they had rammed it thru, Obama would have signed it, then end of story.

Didn't you momma ever tell you, "two wrongs don't make a right"?

/I'd rather be a "loser" with integrity than a "winner" with none...

11 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:06:47pm

re: #10 talon_262

PIMF...meant "your momma"

12 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:07:02pm

re: #9 Lioness

‘Death panel’ is not in the bill… it already exists. Snuck through Obama stimulus bill.Your text to link... Sorry, I don't know how to lable the link.

Read this article...

That's completely ridiculous. Once again, I'm amazed at the distortions being put out.

13 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:07:09pm

re: #8 Locker

I am disappointed again and again by people who provoke divisiveness over co-operation. It's rampant and beneficial for both sides political but it seems very detrimental to us as citizens. I don't like it one bit! No sir!

I want you to co-operate with me in arming every man, woman, and child in the US whether they like it or not. don't be divisive and refuse.

14 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:07:29pm

re: #10 talon_262

Well, you have that going for you.

Myself, I think that some fires need to be fought with other fires.

15 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:07:40pm

Andrew McCarthy Grand Slam:
[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

16 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:08:01pm

re: #13 spidly

I want you to co-operate with me in arming every man, woman, and child in the US whether they like it or not. don't be divisive and refuse.

Ok, lets talk about it.

17 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:08:16pm

There is absolutely no substance at all in that article. And certainly nothing that even comes CLOSE to being a death panel.

18 Irish Rose  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:08:29pm

Sorry, I've had enough of this topic today.
Peace out.

19 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:08:42pm
Well, call it a “victory” if you like, but what really happened was that House Dems reacted for political reasons like politicians do, avoiding the conflict by removing the end of life counseling and care entirely.

Which is why we should not have the Congress running businesses including health insurance businesses.

If they want to reform the insurance industry, practitioners and tort (three legs of the stool) they should go for it. I'd be cheering a comprehensive effort. But the effort so far is about cutting deals, daemonizing opponents and keeping tort reform off the table.

Now they irrationally bow to some other source of pressure. At least we can identify the source of this change - most of the time you and I have no idea who created the right pressure in the right place.

20 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:08:49pm

re: #2 Charles

That's one vote in favor of empty pyrrhic victories.

Sadly, all she has accomplished is now we won't be reimbursed by our insurance companies for end of life counseling. I'm pissed that they gave in to hysteria and killed the provision.

21 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:09:41pm

Sure, the "death panel" thing was pretty dumb, a distraction.

/the whole deal is starting to unravel and we're only halfway through August

22 JarHeadLifer  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:10:23pm

Silly, unfounded and alarmist rhetoric doesn't bother me in the least, so long as the intended ends are reached. This is precisely because the American electorate is an emotional, irrational and fickle beast. Last year, they passed on a man who was a centrist, moderate and unquestionably qualified candidate in favor of a guy who obfuscated and masked everything he really stood for in addition to being unqualified, in the extreme.

Nope, from now on, I say to the GOP - whatever it takes to win, whatever. If Sarah Palin's unsubstantiated, unintelligent babel works to convince the public that Socialized medicine is bad news, I say - " You go, girl."

23 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:10:31pm

re: #14 quiet man

Well, you have that going for you.

Myself, I think that some fires need to be fought with other fires.

So we've established that you'll eagerly jump into the gutter and lie about political enemies.

24 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:10:33pm

re: #20 avanti

Not true..she has positioned herself again as one of the leaders of our party..and we really need some leaders right now.

25 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:11:12pm

re: #24 quiet man

Not true..she has positioned herself again as one of the leaders of our party..and we really need some leaders right now.

Hooray for lying leaders!

26 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:12:06pm

This "victory" is like the chihuahua who yaps at the mailman until he leaves.
Meanwhile, the Whole Foods CEO is a voice crying in the wilderness.
My Grand Old Party blew off the Contract With America.
Looks like they're going to blow off this chance too.

27 JarHeadLifer  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:12:29pm

re: #25 Sharmuta

Hooray for lying leaders!

It's politics, brother. They all lie - always.

28 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:12:45pm

re: #14 quiet man

Well, you have that going for you.

Myself, I think that some fires need to be fought with other fires.

If you want cast to aside your integrity in order to "fight fire with fire", don't expect me to come to your aid when all Hell breaks loose...

29 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:12:47pm

I don't know when co-operation came to mean someone sticking a gun to your head and forcing you to do something, and wanting to be left alone became divisive.

30 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:12:49pm

re: #23 Charles
What is one to do when facts do not matter??
If you are being lied to like we are here by our elected..Maybe that is the wrong time to attempt to reason with the liars.

31 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:13:23pm

re: #24 quiet man

Not true..she has positioned herself again as one of the leaders of our party..and we really need some leaders right now.

yuk...I'm gonna hurl...I have no party and if she leads you via the GOP then you need to redefine leadership

32 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:13:54pm

re: #16 Locker

Ok, lets talk about it.

now you see, I don't actually want the government force everybody to be armed. choice, right?

33 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:14:08pm

re: #26 pre-Boomer Marine brat

This "victory" is like the chihuahua who yaps at the mailman until he leaves.
Meanwhile, the Whole Foods CEO is a voice crying in the wilderness.
My Grand Old Party blew off the Contract With America.
Looks like they're going to blow off this chance too.

Oddly, the provision had wide bipartisan support until it became a misrepresented.

34 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:14:41pm

re: #30 quiet man

What is one to do when facts do not matter??
If you are being lied to like we are here by our elected..Maybe that is the wrong time to attempt to reason with the liars.

stand on principle and MAKE them matter...anything less is unacceptable to me

35 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:14:52pm

re: #30 quiet man

What is one to do when facts do not matter??
If you are being lied to like we are here by our elected..Maybe that is the wrong time to attempt to reason with the liars.

In other words, yes, you do think it's fine to lie and distort, because you feel desperate and powerless. Got it.

36 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:15:17pm

re: #27 talon_262

Too bad you aren;t showing such concern for when your president is doing it..

Sarah hits with one statement..and that defines her in your eyes, right??

How many lies must the democrats give before all hell breaks loose.

oh wait..it has.

37 Lioness  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:15:30pm

re: #12 Charles

Did you read the HR1???

I don't believe a word of anything that comes out of Zero's mouth!

38 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:15:57pm

re: #33 avanti

Oddly, the provision had wide bipartisan support until it became a misrepresented.

I'm talking about a valid alternative to Obama's legislation.
Has nothing to do with 1233.

39 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:16:14pm

I do not believe end of life counseling is a legitimate or necessary function of government, Sarah Palins hyperbolic nonsense notwithstanding.

40 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:16:31pm

re: #32 spidly

now you see, I don't actually want the government force everybody to be armed. choice, right?

I'm just trying to demonstrate a willingness to talk rather than saying "See he said "force"! He's a jerk! Everything he says is a lie!". You know... advocating conversation as opposed to a running screaming match while wearing ear plugs.

41 snowcrash  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:17:09pm

re: #20 avanti
most MDs will discuss options with patient alone or in a family meeting when the situation merits it, ie inoperable cancers or end stage disease. Insurance covers this as it is done during an office visit or at no charge to the patient in a family meeting with a social worker.

42 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:17:23pm

By not addressing:
a.) tort reform, and;
b.) net increase in the supply of doctors
it'll be a cold day in hell before I support this hornswoggle of an obvious power grab of a "healthcare reform" bill.

43 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:17:59pm

ABC states the rumor started with a NY politico named McCaughey, but yesterday the NYT sourced as the washington times:

The specter of government-sponsored, forced euthanasia was raised as early as Nov. 23, just weeks after the election and long before any legislation had been drafted, in an outlet with opinion pages decidedly opposed to Mr. Obama, The Washington Times.

In an editorial, the newspaper reminded its readers of the Aktion T4 program of Nazi Germany in which “children and adults with disabilities, and anyone anywhere in the Third Reich was subject to execution who was blind, deaf, senile, retarded, or had any significant neurological condition.”

44 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:17:59pm

re: #35 Charles

actually..Her standing up feels rather empowering..but as things go, we on the right have a lot less power than we should, given the forces aligned opposite us.


So will I dismiss one statement by Palin?? Yes, I will..How many would I have to dismiss if I were a democrat?? Far, far more.

downding away, since we disagree if you want.

45 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:18:02pm

Don't lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do.

46 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:18:08pm

re: #37 Lioness

Did you read the HR1???

I don't believe a word of anything that comes out of Zero's mouth!

Yes, I did read about the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research.

Again, there is absolutely nothing in that article to suggest that the words "death panel" apply even remotely to this group. It's one of the flimsiest guilt by association attempts I've seen yet.

47 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:19:33pm

re: #39 MrPaulRevere

I do not believe end of life counseling is a legitimate or necessary function of government, Sarah Palins hyperbolic nonsense notwithstanding.

I agree, but it should be covered by insurance if you choose to seek it. The government is not doing the counseling, it's between you and your doctor.

48 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:19:56pm

re: #33 avanti

Oddly, the provision had wide bipartisan support until it became a misrepresented.

Didn't have my support, why does it need to be codified into law when any doctor worth his salt is already advising his/her patients of the facts of life and death?
It's as stupid as having to pass a law making it illegal to text while driving.

49 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:20:01pm

re: #44 quiet man

actually..Her standing up feels rather empowering..but as things go, we on the right have a lot less power than we should, given the forces aligned opposite us.

So will I dismiss one statement by Palin?? Yes, I will..How many would I have to dismiss if I were a democrat?? Far, far more.

downding away, since we disagree if you want.

you might put politics aside and consider your own personal ethic

50 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:20:04pm

Criticize the health care bill because it does nothing about tort reform, or because it's been watered down by demands from Big Pharma, but this "death panel" stuff gives me an enormous headache.

This is stupid, and wrong, and if you want to participate in it, you're not going to get any support from me.

51 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:20:27pm

I will note again that, hyperbole aside, her original comments weren't about end-of-life provisions, but rather comparative effectiveness, as some said as soon as the controversy arose and as she re-iterated in her most recent Facebook entry. The media likes the end-of-life counseling angle though.

52 JarHeadLifer  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:21:19pm

re: #35 Charles

In other words, yes, you do think it's fine to lie and distort, because you feel desperate and powerless. Got it.

There's a word for the position that politicians find themselves in when telling the truth - the minority.

George Bush tried to tell the truth about our inevitably bankrupt Social Security system. It was the beginning of the end of his presidency. In this case, Barack Obama and his allies co-opt the language of the free market and try to paint the public option as something that "encourages competition". When, the truth of the matter is no one can compete with the government, so the public option is just big fat lie designed to kill the insurance companies. If you've got to spin a few yarns to combat that, so be it.

53 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:21:47pm

re: #41 snowcrash

most MDs will discuss options with patient alone or in a family meeting when the situation merits it, ie inoperable cancers or end stage disease. Insurance covers this as it is done during an office visit or at no charge to the patient in a family meeting with a social worker.

That's the way it should be. The gov't has no business giving guidelines for doctors on those meetings. Let's keep them in the hands of the doctors.

54 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:22:06pm

re: #48 Taqyia2Me

Didn't have my support, why does it need to be codified into law when any doctor worth his salt is already advising his/her patients of the facts of life and death?
It's as stupid as having to pass a law making it illegal to text while driving.

Why is that stupid? It's not like a helmet law or seat belt law where you only really hurt yourself but not complying. Co-worker has a daughter who was nailed by a texting driver and is in a wheelchair. I support public safety laws and see this and talking on a phone while driving as things to be protected against. Just my opinion.

55 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:22:40pm

re: #49 albusteve

My own personal ethic here is that I am tired of the lies coming down from the top and echoed by all the democrats. I want to see them countered because they end up screwing the country. We are not speaking of the ivory tower here but politics that will impact every citizens and illeagal in the country.

To sit by and theorize when the other side is outright lying is also dead wrong..IMNSHO

56 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:22:59pm

ABC did a good job on their fact checking. Perhaps this is the upside of lying- the msm will get back to what it's supposed to do: report facts.

57 pat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:23:14pm

mandatory rationed care equals early death

58 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:23:52pm

re: #52 JarHeadLifer

There's a word for the position that politicians find themselves in when telling the truth - the minority.

George Bush tried to tell the truth about our inevitably bankrupt Social Security system. It was the beginning of the end of his presidency. In this case, Barack Obama and his allies co-opt the language of the free market and try to paint the public option as something that "encourages competition". When, the truth of the matter is no one can compete with the government, so the public option is just big fat lie designed to kill the insurance companies. If you've got to spin a few yarns to combat that, so be it.

that whole thing is insane...when you sanction and support deceit, you are doomed...pretty simple

59 snowcrash  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:24:28pm

re: #48 Taqyia2Me
Agree. Any admission into a hospital requires you be given info re "advance directives" regarding medical treatments at the end of life. Whether you are 18 or 80 you make the choice.

60 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:24:29pm

re: #47 avanti

If one wants a policy with that option available, I have no objection at all, and I'm aware no government official would be present during the talk. I do not believe the government should pay for it however. It's downright ghoulish.

61 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:24:30pm

Is there any debate that we already have rationed care in this country? It's not something "new" with a government plan. Right?

62 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:24:34pm

re: #48 Taqyia2Me

Didn't have my support, why does it need to be codified into law when any doctor worth his salt is already advising his/her patients of the facts of life and death?
It's as stupid as having to pass a law making it illegal to text while driving.

Driving a car or driving a locomotive?

63 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:24:51pm

re: #55 quiet man

My own personal ethic here is that I am tired of the lies coming down from the top and echoed by all the democrats. I want to see them countered because they end up screwing the country.

Except you seem happy to counter lies with more lies, not the truth. That's rather unprincipled.

64 MJ  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:25:12pm

I've had to have several "end of life" conversations with Doctors and lawyers in hospitals in the last 8 or 9 years. The first was one my father developed a particular form of Leukemia which proved fatal. My father, along with my mother and the rest of the family decided not to take any "heroic" measures to prolong life.
The second occurred when my mother developed renal failure. Once again, her decision reached with the consent of all members of the family, was not to prolong life with any heroic measures.
The third and fourth occurrences conversations concerned me.
Frankly, I was glad to have all these conversations and am surprised some folks see something far sinister in them than what they are designed to elicit. And no, they are not designed to elicit the decisions which my parents made but rather to give us the information for which we could then make intelligent decisions. Such conversations are, in fact, necessary given the the ability of modern medicine to prolong life. These are conversations which should occur between the patient, their doctor and their family though, ultimately, it is the patient who, assuming sound mind, must make the final decision.

65 TheMatrix31  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:25:17pm

How about we just forget the whole fucking bill?

66 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:25:20pm

re: #48 Taqyia2Me

Didn't have my support, why does it need to be codified into law when any doctor worth his salt is already advising his/her patients of the facts of life and death?
It's as stupid as having to pass a law making it illegal to text while driving.

What if your insurance does not cover it, or your Doctor is not "worth his salt" in end of life care ? I can't even get my doctor to do a good cardiology work up without any symptoms of a problem because of insurance rules.

67 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:25:37pm

re: #47 avanti

I agree, but it should be covered by insurance if you choose to seek it. The government is not doing the counseling, it's between you and your doctor.

Fine, regulate the private insurance industry, that's within the power of Congress. Set up as many hoops as you want.

/just keep the government from getting further involved in providing health insurance, they've already proven that they've failed miserably at Medicare, managing to rack up tens of trillions of unfunded mandates that someone is going to end up taking it in the shorts for

68 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:25:48pm

re: #55 quiet man

My own personal ethic here is that I am tired of the lies coming down from the top and echoed by all the democrats. I want to see them countered because they end up screwing the country. We are not speaking of the ivory tower here but politics that will impact every citizens and illeagal in the country.

To sit by and theorize when the other side is outright lying is also dead wrong..IMNSHO

counter lies with more lies...that's a bad rabbit, I don't really care how upset you are with the democrats

69 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:26:38pm

re: #54 Locker

Why is that stupid? It's not like a helmet law or seat belt law where you only really hurt yourself but not complying. Co-worker has a daughter who was nailed by a texting driver and is in a wheelchair. I support public safety laws and see this and talking on a phone while driving as things to be protected against. Just my opinion.

Its stupid because people shouldn't have to be told to drive the car and put the phone away.
At least I think that was the point being made.

70 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:27:06pm

re: #54 Locker

Why is that stupid? It's not like a helmet law or seat belt law where you only really hurt yourself but not complying. Co-worker has a daughter who was nailed by a texting driver and is in a wheelchair. I support public safety laws and see this and talking on a phone while driving as things to be protected against. Just my opinion.

It is stupid because the texter should ALREADY have requisite level of PERSONAL responsibility to REALIZE testing while driving is not only stupid, it's freakin' dangerous.
Very sorry to learn of your co-worker's daughter being crippled.

71 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:27:11pm

re: #66 avanti

What if your insurance does not cover it, or your Doctor is not "worth his salt" in end of life care ? I can't even get my doctor to do a good cardiology work up without any symptoms of a problem because of insurance rules.

Agreed. I have Kaiser and you basically have to manage your own health care. Fight for every referral, pay co-payments every step of the way, etc. They don't do anything proactive... at all.

72 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:27:11pm

re: #66 avanti

What if your insurance does not cover it, or your Doctor is not "worth his salt" in end of life care ? I can't even get my doctor to do a good cardiology work up without any symptoms of a problem because of insurance rules.

Normally, you'd be sent to someone who helps. Hardly a reason for government-controlled insurance.

73 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:27:17pm

re: #64 MJ

The third and fourth occurrences conversations concerned me.

I'm glad you are still here conversing with us.

74 JarHeadLifer  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:27:23pm

re: #58 albusteve

that whole thing is insane...when you sanction and support deceit, you are doomed...pretty simple

The Democrat's stock and trade is deceit and obfuscation. And yet, they control the three elected levers of government. How exactly are they doomed?

Barack Obama lied about not wanting single payer. Barack Obama lied about not raising taxes on the middle class. Barack Obama lied about ending warrantless wiretapping. Barack Obama lied about not taking public financing for his campaign. Barack Obama lied about not keeping prisoners in the WOT indefinitely. Barack Obama lies. All the time. But, he doesn't seemed to "doomed" from where I'm sitting.

75 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:27:24pm

re: #63 Sharmuta
hardly..I expect politicians not to always tell the truth or to spin something in a way that has an effect. I do not see you very angry about the lies Obama is telling right this minute..and they make Sarahs one statement pale in comparison,

No wonder so many people are angry.

76 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:28:38pm

re: #69 DEZes

Its stupid because people shouldn't have to be told to drive the car and put the phone away.
At least I think that was the point being made.

It would be a stupid law if people were that smart. They aren't. So if he's saying it's the people who are stupid and not the law, I'm 100pct behind him.

77 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:28:57pm

The idea, (which, by the way, is probably unconstitutional) that the government should get involved AS our health care industry is a disaster all by itself. We don't need pointless distractions that give the left ammunition.

We need to focus on the big picture. Socialized government run health care will be a disaster, and most of this nation knows it.

78 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:29:15pm

re: #66 avanti

What if your insurance does not cover it, or your Doctor is not "worth his salt" in end of life care ? I can't even get my doctor to do a good cardiology work up without any symptoms of a problem because of insurance rules.

Get a new doctor.

79 Lioness  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:29:20pm

re: #52 JarHeadLifer

I have been in the insurance industry for 20+ yrs. Other little known facts are:

1. States approve all insurance companies Health Care Policy's rates
2. States set the reserve amount that Health Insurance Company's much have on hand to pay claims.
3. Each doctor will continue to order and rely on the medical tests that they order in order to cover their backsides for a lawsuit.

There is no way any Insurance Company can compete with the government. Zero says that you can keep your policy if you like it but it will just be a matter of time before the Government squeezes out the Insurance Companies.

I can hardly listen to him lie ~ I have never seen such a liar!

80 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:29:46pm

re: #74 JarHeadLifer

The Democrat's stock and trade is deceit and obfuscation. And yet, they control the three elected levers of government. How exactly are they doomed?

Barack Obama lied about not wanting single payer. Barack Obama lied about not raising taxes on the middle class. Barack Obama lied about ending warrantless wiretapping. Barack Obama lied about not taking public financing for his campaign. Barack Obama lied about not keeping prisoners in the WOT indefinitely. Barack Obama lies. All the time. But, he doesn't seemed to "doomed" from where I'm sitting.

find another seat and be patient

81 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:29:52pm

re: #78 Taqyia2Me

Get a new doctor.

Carry me!

82 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:30:26pm

re: #60 MrPaulRevere

If one wants a policy with that option available, I have no objection at all, and I'm aware no government official would be present during the talk. I do not believe the government should pay for it however. It's downright ghoulish.

What's ghoullish about telling your Doctor about end of life care ? In my case, I'd rather die in peace at home rather than live a few days or weeks longer hooked up to a machine. My mother in-law choose Hospice care, and died in her own bed, with her family at her bedside because that's what she choose to do.

83 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:30:42pm

re: #77 FrogMarch

The idea, (which, by the way, is probably unconstitutional) that the government should get involved AS our health care industry is a disaster all by itself. We don't need pointless distractions that give the left ammunition.

We need to focus on the big picture. Socialized government run health care will be a disaster, and most of this nation knows it.

The government already is involved as your health care provider if you are in the military or on medicare. Regardless of criticism they are both up and running. Try taking a senior's medicare and see if they are happy about it.

84 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:30:44pm

re: #68 albusteve

When the liberals have won everything they want with lies and distortions, you can tell yourself at least you demanded your side only tell the exact truth on the way down.

85 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:30:47pm

re: #75 quiet man

hardly..I expect politicians not to always tell the truth or to spin something in a way that has an effect. I do not see you very angry about the lies Obama is telling right this minute..and they make Sarahs one statement pale in comparison,

No wonder so many people are angry.

Because I don't want to give in to emotions. Why should I be angry when I can make rational criticisms of this bill? Giving into emotions isn't constructive.

86 pat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:30:51pm

re: #66 avanti

Try your own money. It works.

87 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:30:59pm

re: #77 FrogMarch

The idea, (which, by the way, is probably unconstitutional) that the government should get involved AS our health care industry is a disaster all by itself. We don't need pointless distractions that give the left ammunition.

We need to focus on the big picture. Socialized government run health care will be a disaster, and most of this nation knows it.

Precisely!

88 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:31:18pm

re: #40 Locker

I'm just trying to demonstrate a willingness to talk rather than saying "See he said "force"! He's a jerk! Everything he says is a lie!". You know... advocating conversation as opposed to a running screaming match while wearing ear plugs.

so you think the government should be able to compel/force/"help against their will" all citizens to be armed? You really think there is a point trying to discuss that point? Should we talk about the government instituting a nationwide mandatory co-operation in a scheme to reduce living quarters to 250 square feet per person? And I didn't call you a liar, I have no idea where that came from, just don't like your view of co-operation. Some things are really not worth talking about.

89 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:31:28pm

What I'm still amazed by, is that with Democrat supermajorities in the House and Senate, you've got what is basically a lone person with no official role and a Blackberry up in Alaska that's being allowed to drive the debate and legislation.

What a strange world we live in.

90 MJ  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:31:46pm

re: #73 wrenchwench

I'm glad you are still here conversing with us.

Thanks! I'm glad I'm still here too.
But you know, things like a stoke or a serious heart attack can occur to any of us- especially us baby boomers - and it's better to confront that reality while we still have the mental and or physical ability to do so.

91 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:32:10pm

re: #84 quiet man

When the liberals have won everything they want with lies and distortions, you can tell yourself at least you demanded your side only tell the exact truth on the way down.

I don't demand anything from anybody...I just would not trust a person like you

92 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:32:16pm

re: #78 Taqyia2Me

Get a new doctor.

A new kaiser doctor just operates by same rules as the other one in my case. Same rationing, same fights, etc, etc.

93 JacksonTn  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:32:28pm

re: #89 Pianobuff

What I'm still amazed by, is that with Democrat supermajorities in the House and Senate, you've got what is basically a lone person with no official role and a Blackberry up in Alaska that's being allowed to drive the debate and legislation.

What a strange world we live in.

Piano ... it is something isn't it? ... I don't get it ...

94 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:32:34pm

re: #71 Locker

Agreed. I have Kaiser and you basically have to manage your own health care. Fight for every referral, pay co-payments every step of the way, etc. They don't do anything proactive... at all.

Of course not, say they checked my heart and found a problem, that expense comes off their bottom line. Better to let my die with a undiagnosed condition than look for trouble.

95 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:32:44pm

re: #84 quiet man

When the liberals have won everything they want with lies and distortions, you can tell yourself at least you demanded your side only tell the exact truth on the way down.

Because the truth is our enemy or something? WTF?

96 snowcrash  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:33:09pm

re: #66 avanti
Do you get an annual EKG (after age 40)? Cholesterol and lipid panel? If it is normal and you are symptom free,why do you want a comprehensive cardiology exam that I would guess includes a stress test or thallium scan or even MRI? Why do you want insurance to pay for it?

97 Grambo46  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:33:13pm

re: #10 talon_262

"/I'd rather be a "loser" with integrity than a "winner" with none..."

Me too. But IMHO, it's not about me. I will accept nearly anything which furthers a promise of my kids having at least some semblance of the country I grew up in.

98 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:34:14pm

re: #36 quiet man

Too bad you aren;t showing such concern for when your president is doing it..

Sarah hits with one statement..and that defines her in your eyes, right??

How many lies must the democrats give before all hell breaks loose.

oh wait..it has.

You're right...President Obama is my president...and yours as well, even if we disagree with him or his policies. It's what we tried to tell the leftists when they busted out the "Bush is not my President!" canard and it's still true today.

That said, I will not compromise my integrity in order to do battle with my political opponents...if you want to, knock yourself out. Just don't expect me to help you out while you dig ever deeper into the pit of lies and deception...

99 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:34:15pm

re: #94 avanti


So they'll let your heart condition slide, but according to 0bama, docs are yanking out tonsils right and left for no other reason than to line their own pockets...

/Anyone else feeling the disconnect?

100 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:34:36pm

For most people of good and free will, signing an advanced medical directive while you are healthy is a good idea.

No need for the end of life counseling and it removes much of the burden from your family. If you make your wishes clear then they don't have to feel like they will either kill you or prolong suffering.

And write it down and put it in the hands of an attorney. Avoid the Terri Schaivo drama.

101 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:34:46pm

re: #89 Pianobuff

What I'm still amazed by, is that with Democrat supermajorities in the House and Senate, you've got what is basically a lone person with no official role and a Blackberry up in Alaska that's being allowed to drive the debate and legislation.

What a strange world we live in.

Sure, she poisoned the pond, and sucked the life out of the real debate.

102 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:34:50pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

It is in this health care crap Obama is trying to push thru

103 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:34:50pm

re: #82 avanti

"What's ghoullish about telling your Doctor about end of life care ? " Nothing at all ghoulish about that. I agree emphatically with what MJ posted above, these conversations are necessary. Perhaps 'ghoulish' was a poor choice of words, but having the government pay for that conversation gives me the creeps.

104 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:35:05pm

re: #82 avanti

What's ghoullish about telling your Doctor about end of life care ?

It's called an advanced care directive, they're not expensive or difficult to create and they already exist in all 50 states and work quite well.

/there's no need for the Federal government to get involved in something like this that doesn't need fixing

105 HelloDare  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:35:16pm

Imagine how much rhetoric there'd be about euthanizing Bush is he were still in office.

106 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:35:25pm

re: #88 spidly

so you think the government should be able to compel/force/"help against their will" all citizens to be armed? You really think there is a point trying to discuss that point? Should we talk about the government instituting a nationwide mandatory co-operation in a scheme to reduce living quarters to 250 square feet per person? And I didn't call you a liar, I have no idea where that came from, just don't like your view of co-operation. Some things are really not worth talking about.

I'm talking about how people speak about Obama, or Bush, or anyone... with regard to the liar thing. And I agree that there are certain things where the massive majority agrees and don't need to be discussed. No discussions about making murder legal, etc.

However when there is an issue like health care with a serious divide. We, as a citizenry, can't get much done if half of us hate the other half and we do everything we can to increase the drama and hate. If we can't have conversations across the line then the likelihood of good ideas and decisions seems very remote. In my opinion.

107 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:35:27pm

re: #83 Locker

The government already is involved as your health care provider if you are in the military or on medicare. Regardless of criticism they are both up and running. Try taking a senior's medicare and see if they are happy about it.


They are also going bankrupt. Shouldn't we sure-up those programs before we layer an entire take-over of the entire health care industry on top?

108 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:35:35pm

re: #102 quiet man

It is in this health care crap Obama is trying to push thru

What is?

109 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:35:41pm

re: #94 avanti

Of course not, say they checked my heart and found a problem, that expense comes off their bottom line. Better to let my die with a undiagnosed condition than look for trouble.

What?

110 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:36:04pm

re: #98 talon_262
Fine..your sacrifice will not go unsung.

My point is that I dont see Sarah Palins remark as the worst thing in the argument right now..

111 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:36:18pm

re: #84 quiet man

When the liberals have won everything they want with lies and distortions, you can tell yourself at least you demanded your side only tell the exact truth on the way down.

The idea that since the other side is lying, we should too is repugnant from the outset, we become what we are supposed to loathe, we become what we oppose.
I think I will have to pass, its self defeating.

112 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:36:37pm

re: #96 snowcrash

Do you get an annual EKG (after age 40)? Cholesterol and lipid panel? If it is normal and you are symptom free,why do you want a comprehensive cardiology exam that I would guess includes a stress test or thallium scan or even MRI? Why do you want insurance to pay for it?

To make a point?

113 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:36:47pm

re: #108 Sharmuta
The truth is the enemy of the democrats in this bill..as well as the cap and trade bill they have killed for the year

114 Grambo46  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:36:55pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

Because they have lied for years and depended on the masses to be so ill-informed they would simply accept their lies. And it's worked.

I don't think the right should lie systematically ... but I won't spend a lot of time damning those of the right who swerve into it from time to time.

115 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:36:58pm

re: #101 avanti

Sure, she poisoned the pond, and sucked the life out of the real debate.

Why let her though? She's got no position anymore, her popularity is sunk, her influence appears to have gone down, many have turned on her. Dems have the votes... why give a rat's ass what she says, right?

116 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:37:41pm

We can hardly expect politicians to be honest with their constituents when we cheer them on for lying.

117 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:37:57pm

re: #100 karmic_inquisitor

For most people of good and free will, signing an advanced medical directive while you are healthy is a good idea.

No need for the end of life counseling and it removes much of the burden from your family. If you make your wishes clear then they don't have to feel like they will either kill you or prolong suffering.

And write it down and put it in the hands of an attorney. Avoid the Terri Schaivo drama.

Precisely. I did that a decade ago, and am (now) wondering what the hell a lot of people have against the idea.

To heck with oranges. The derangement's so severe, they think an apple is a railroad locomotive.

118 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:38:13pm

re: #110 quiet man

Fine..your sacrifice will not go unsung.

My point is that I dont see Sarah Palins remark as the worst thing in the argument right now..

your point was you endorse her deceit for political currency

119 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:38:23pm

re: #109 debutaunt

What?

If you want your heart checked for example, you need to tell your doctor you are having chest pain. You can't get a real, full workup unless you have symptoms of a problem.

120 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:38:28pm

re: #82 avanti

What's ghoullish about telling your Doctor about end of life care ? In my case, I'd rather die in peace at home rather than live a few days or weeks longer hooked up to a machine. My mother in-law choose Hospice care, and died in her own bed, with her family at her bedside because that's what she choose to do.

One caveat on dying in your home. There is a certain romance to the idea as a nice exit and all, but be aware that your survivors may have to declare that a death occurred in the house when they go to sell it. I understand that here in California it is a required disclosure and some folks from some cultures won't buy such a house (not that folks are buying houses right now).

121 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:38:28pm

re: #111 DEZes

Who says we should all lie?? I dont..I merely accept Palins distortion with a lot less upset given what is the basis of the bill and the way it has been presented.

122 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:38:42pm

re: #107 FrogMarch

They are also going bankrupt. Shouldn't we sure-up those programs before we layer an entire take-over of the entire health care industry on top?

I think we should continue planning for success with those programs, taking steps needed. I also think we need some health care reform, for me it's single payer, not obama care. Doing more than one thing at a time seems reasonable.

123 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:39:08pm

Hooray for fear mongering on the backs of the elderly!

124 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:39:51pm

re: #121 quiet man

Who says we should all lie?? I dont..I merely accept Palins distortion with a lot less upset given what is the basis of the bill and the way it has been presented.

If she is distorting the truth, she is no better than any other liar.

125 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:39:53pm

re: #114 Grambo46

Because they have lied for years and depended on the masses to be so ill-informed they would simply accept their lies. And it's worked.

I don't think the right should lie systematically ... but I won't spend a lot of time damning those of the right who swerve into it from time to time.

then you are for sale...not me...not to a person or a party or an ideology

126 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:39:54pm

re: #115 Pianobuff

Why let her though? She's got no position anymore, her popularity is sunk, her influence appears to have gone down, many have turned on her. Dems have the votes... why give a rat's ass what she says, right?

She still gets that segment of her base that's as nutty as she is fired up with her death panel crap.

127 swamprat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:39:59pm

Palin got the dems to perform a meaningless concession to a baseless accusation. In schoolyard parlance; the dems blinked.
Somehow something will get passed in whatever form is necessary. After it gets passed it will be modified into whatever the heck the dems want. Then, after that blows up in their face, they will change it into something quite possibly useful and feasible. The republicans will be blamed for the democrats initial mistakes, and America will have...something...perhaps beneficial, perhaps not.

128 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:40:02pm

Divisive
A radical who couched his hatespeech in platitudes of nonviolent noncooperation.

129 JarHeadLifer  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:40:13pm

re: #118 albusteve

your point was you endorse her deceit for political currency

Deceit is political currency. No one votes for people who tell them what they need to hear. People vote for those who tell them what they want to hear. To believe otherwise, is simply naive.

130 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:40:24pm

re: #118 albusteve
Okay..yes..I consider her remark acceptable given the staggering lies given to regular citizens. I can smile doing it..

If I were a democrat. I would have to swallow far more and smile even wider.

131 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:40:46pm

re: #101 avanti

Sure, she poisoned the pond, and sucked the life out of the real debate.

I call bullshit. Here we have the Left, which cannot help but lie, cheat and steal and you get in all high dudgeon about some girl from Alaska.

But the point of thread is correct in that lying will not ultimately help the cause.

And it probably not only helps keep the likes of Rangel, Dodd out of jail, it keeps them in elective office. Which is a crying shame.

132 JacksonTn  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:40:56pm

re: #122 Locker

I think we should continue planning for success with those programs, taking steps needed. I also think we need some health care reform, for me it's single payer, not obama care. Doing more than one thing at a time seems reasonable.

re: #122 Locker

I think we should continue planning for success with those programs, taking steps needed. I also think we need some health care reform, for me it's single payer, not obama care. Doing more than one thing at a time seems reasonable.

Locker ... there will be no hand holding moment ... the lines have been drawn ... they were before the election and continue now ... it is a big friggin train wreck ... it is not pretty but it is the way it is ...

133 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:41:36pm

re: #83 Locker

Try taking a senior's medicare and see if they are happy about it.

/the program is so hopelessly underwater, to the tune of tens of trillions, it will eventually collapse in a spectacular fashion, they're rapidly running out of road to kick the can further down

134 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:41:49pm

re: #124 DEZes
One thing all of us hide behind is "all politicians lie regardless of party"

Its the truth, too.

135 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:41:56pm

re: #119 avanti

If you want your heart checked for example, you need to tell your doctor you are having chest pain. You can't get a real, full workup unless you have symptoms of a problem.

And?

136 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:42:00pm

BBIAB.

137 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:42:06pm

re: #129 JarHeadLifer

Deceit is political currency. No one votes for people who tell them what they need to hear. People vote for those who tell them what they want to hear. To believe otherwise, is simply naive.

I am not people, I am me...you are pounding sand with that argument

138 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:42:09pm

re: #122 Locker

I think we should continue planning for success with those programs, taking steps needed. I also think we need some health care reform, for me it's single payer, not obama care. Doing more than one thing at a time seems reasonable.

You want single payer?

139 snowcrash  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:42:40pm

re: #119 avanti
To undergo medical procedures to look for a problem that may or may not exist is not how medicine works. If you exhibit changes in your annual screenings or are symptomatic, then you get the work up. And believe me if you come to the ER with even the vaguest of cardiac symptoms you go to the head of the line...even if it ends up being indigestion.

140 HelloDare  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:42:46pm

re: #2 Charles

That's one vote in favor of empty pyrrhic victories.


Really dumb move. Going down in flames contributes to global warming.

141 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:42:51pm

re: #126 avanti

She still gets that segment of her base that's as nutty as she is fired up with her death panel crap.

And?

142 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:43:08pm

re: #137 albusteve

I am not people, I am me...you are pounding sand with that argument

(... heh ... *salute* ... and upding)

143 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:43:28pm

re: #126 avanti

She still gets that segment of her base that's as nutty as she is fired up with her death panel crap.

But those folks are irrelevant to Dems, even Blue Dogs... no? I'm just trying to figure out why so much power is "given" to her in her current situation. It doesn't make sense that she would be allowed to drive the debate in the way that she has.

144 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:43:29pm

re: #132 JacksonTn

Locker ... there will be no hand holding moment ... the lines have been drawn ... they were before the election and continue now ... it is a big friggin train wreck ... it is not pretty but it is the way it is ...

If I believed that I wouldn't be here talking to ya'll. I don't care what my fringe or your fringe says. I don't care what your reps or my reps say. I KNOW there are good and smart people on both sides of the line and I advocate getting together against the Moon Nuts and getting some shit done.

145 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:44:03pm

re: #130 quiet man

Okay..yes..I consider her remark acceptable given the staggering lies given to regular citizens. I can smile doing it..

If I were a democrat. I would have to swallow far more and smile even wider.

Dude - try being neither a Democrat or a Republican. Then you don't have to suffer such compromises to your integrity all to promote the latest egomaniac who wants to ride in Air Force One.

It is liberating to be independent. Loyalties only to your family and America.

Remember - they are politicians. They are all whores. You don't have to take part in running the brothel.

146 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:44:53pm

re: #110 quiet man

Fine..your sacrifice will not go unsung.

My point is that I dont see Sarah Palins remark as the worst thing in the argument right now..

Bite me, you condescending twit...

/"Do the letters F.O. mean anything to you?" - Bo "Bandit" Darville

147 JacksonTn  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:46:00pm

re: #144 Locker

If I believed that I wouldn't be here talking to ya'll. I don't care what my fringe or your fringe says. I don't care what your reps or my reps say. I KNOW there are good and smart people on both sides of the line and I advocate getting together against the Moon Nuts and getting some shit done.

Locker ... I do not hate people on any side ... I am just saying it ain't gonna happen at this moment in time ... and btw ... I am only on my side ... not the right or the left ... at this time I am against the proposed bill and Obama is the person pushing the bill ... we don't need to completely overhaul the entire system imo ... why? ...

148 swamprat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:46:20pm

The dems will say anything to get this passed. The Repubs will say anything to oppose it. Neither side knows what is in it, and if they do, it does not matter. This is the worst kind of American politicking.

149 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:46:21pm

re: #138 FrogMarch

You want single payer?

Yes sir. We were having a conversation about it in the Saturday Morning Open thread. I asked a bunch of questions.

150 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:46:36pm
151 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:47:15pm

re: #39 MrPaulRevere

"I do not believe end of life counseling is a legitimate or necessary function of government." That argument would have worked. There was absolutely no need whatsoever to lie about 'death panels'.

152 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:47:43pm

re: #147 JacksonTn

Locker ... I do not hate people on any side ... I am just saying it ain't gonna happen at this moment in time ... and btw ... I am only on my side ... not the right or the left ... at this time I am against the proposed bill and Obama is the person pushing the bill ... we don't need to completely overhaul the entire system imo ... why? ...

Haha I would say you just hand holded me. Thanks man! I'm against the bill as well. Single payer baby!

153 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:47:44pm

re: #106 Locker

I'm talking about how people speak about Obama, or Bush, or anyone... with regard to the liar thing. And I agree that there are certain things where the massive majority agrees and don't need to be discussed. No discussions about making murder legal, etc.

However when there is an issue like health care with a serious divide. We, as a citizenry, can't get much done if half of us hate the other half and we do everything we can to increase the drama and hate. If we can't have conversations across the line then the likelihood of good ideas and decisions seems very remote. In my opinion.

I have a really good solution. Start rolling back the federal gov and get it closer to living within its enumerated powers and let 50 states find 50 solutions to health care. There was a reason the framers didn't want an all powerful fed: individual states could do something stupid like single payer or state advocated religion and it would not screw everybody else. You should look at the states a bit more like individuals of the EU. Go tell the rest of Europe that they all must follow the NHS model and see if that works.

154 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:48:12pm

re: #145 karmic_inquisitor
If they are all whores, why is dismissing Palins remark so bad??

If the stakes were less and the other side not so pushy in their lies, I would think Palin was wrong to say it..but since she got action with only one statement that brought even more people into consideration of what is in the one bill we can see..I am going to accept this little white distortion from her.

She lit one match against a forest fire..so My hose is aimed the other way..this time

155 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:48:38pm

We can't afford Obama Derangement Syndrome.
The battle is too important.

/Sheesh! ... I'm outta here for the evening

156 JacksonTn  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:48:39pm

re: #152 Locker

Haha I would say you just hand holded me. Thanks man! I'm against the bill as well. Single payer baby!

Locker ... you would be wrong ...

157 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:49:01pm

re: #152 Locker

Haha I would say you just hand holded me. Thanks man! I'm against the bill as well. Single payer baby!

socialism...baby!

gag me

158 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:49:24pm

I'm sick to death of Obama's ever changing rhetoric.
First he vilifies insurance companies. Now he says - "I'm not here to vilify the insurance companies." Which is it?

159 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:49:35pm

re: #152 Locker

Haha I would say you just hand holded me. Thanks man! I'm against the bill as well. Single payer baby!

What is your definition of single payer?

160 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:49:43pm

re: #149 Locker

Yes sir. We were having a conversation about it in the Saturday Morning Open thread. I asked a bunch of questions.

Well, I don't. We can agree to disagree.

161 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:49:53pm

re: #154 quiet man

My hose is aimed the other way..this time

Can we get through just one thread without you talking about your hose?

162 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:50:16pm

re: #158 FrogMarch

I'm sick to death of Obama's ever changing rhetoric.
First he vilifies insurance companies. Now he says - "I'm not here to vilify the insurance companies." Which is it?


"Let me be clear..."

163 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:50:23pm

re: #158 FrogMarch

I'm sick to death of Obama's ever changing rhetoric.
First he vilifies insurance companies. Now he says - "I'm not here to vilify the insurance companies." Which is it?

It is not the vilification he knew.

164 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:50:27pm

re: #154 quiet man

If they are all whores, why is dismissing Palins remark so bad??

If the stakes were less and the other side not so pushy in their lies, I would think Palin was wrong to say it..but since she got action with only one statement that brought even more people into consideration of what is in the one bill we can see..I am going to accept this little white distortion from her.

She lit one match against a forest fire..so My hose is aimed the other way..this time

You just keep riding the Cognitive Dissonance train...I'll stay far away from you.

165 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:50:47pm

ot: Armstrong wins Leadville 100.

on a flat tire, no less. Butt-kicker!

166 swamprat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:50:50pm

Heard some radio pundit, (sounded like Hannity), claiming that prevention will not lower medical costs. I don't see how these guys can say this stuff with a straight face. Bet he still changes the oil in his car.

167 SurferDoc  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:50:56pm

Maybe politics is just too rough for some people. Too mean. It should be honest. And fair. And Nice. We should make those politicians speak the truth and stop the meanness. We could have a system with no losers and everyone gets a trophy. We could call the losers 'the second place finishers'.
Then...

168 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:51:11pm

re: #134 quiet man

One thing all of us hide behind is "all politicians lie regardless of party"

Its the truth, too.

Accepting it is bad enough, I cant respect it.

169 Cathypop  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:51:27pm

re: #161 Fenway_Nation

Can we get through just one thread without you talking about your hose?

Dude, it may be a small hose but it's all he has. Humor him.

170 JacksonTn  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:51:48pm

re: #162 Fenway_Nation

"Let me be clear..."

FN ... Transparency! ... it will be televised! ...

171 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:51:52pm

re: #146 talon_262

Sorry, you feel that way. Mostly I agree with what you are saying...but I will not stand aside and pretend she is the bad person here.

172 gatorbait  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:52:03pm

Did the principal House version of the bill not contain provisions for "mandatory end of life counseling" for older Americans?

Does Ezekiel Emanuel, MD, a major "medical ethicist" adviser to Obama" not grade an American citizens eligibility for health care based on that person's social value, by age and infirmity?

Does the Obama team not favor the establishment of a medical advisory board, with broad policy making powers, like the NICE Board in England?

I believe the answers are all in the affirmative.

Sarah Palin nailed it. Good for her.

173 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:52:24pm

re: #159 debutaunt

What is your definition of single payer?

Per one of Locker's posts in the last thread, the federal government.

/so what's the difference between ObamaCare and your "single-payer" wet dream again, Locker?

174 jamgarr  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:52:48pm

re: #166 swamprat

Heard some radio pundit, (sounded like Hannity), claiming that prevention will not lower medical costs. I don't see how these guys can say this stuff with a straight face. Bet he still changes the oil in his car.

It's a matter of semantics. Of course, prevention saves money. It's what will be done in the name of prevention that will probably cost alot more.

175 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:52:57pm

re: #158 FrogMarch

I'm sick to death of Obama's ever changing rhetoric.
First he vilifies insurance companies. Now he says - "I'm not here to vilify the insurance companies." Which is it?

Both!

176 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:53:10pm

re: #50 Charles

Criticize the health care bill because it does nothing about tort reform, or because it's been watered down by demands from Big Pharma, but this "death panel" stuff gives me an enormous headache.

This is stupid, and wrong, and if you want to participate in it, you're not going to get any support from me.

Quite true. The whole "end of life counseling," or whatever it was called, was an attempt to keep horrendous tragedies like the Schiavo case from happening. Every adult, from 18 onward, ought to be given an overview of what's required to ensure that things work out the way you want them to should you die, or find yourself incapacitated and unable to direct your own care. There are millions of people who have no will, no written power of attorney, no medical power of attorney, no record of what their wishes are, and on and on, and providing an overview and a reminder to take personal responsibility for putting your affairs in order, and to review your arrangements every few years, isn't a bad idea at all. In fact, it's a good one.

Unfortunately, the bill was poorly written, and placed too much responsibility for provision of such counseling in government hands and not enough in the hands of citizens; and the response to the overblown, hysterical criticisms was just as poorly organized, as was the section's withdrawal. A simple recommendation to hand out up to date brochures containing an overview of the issues, and urging patients to contact an attorney to help with organizing theses matters, is all that is needed.

So in the years to come, we can look forward to thousands upon thousands of people suffering through years of a life they would prefer to end if they had the ability to do so; of spouses unable to carry out their partner's requests; of family wealth destroyed by endless legal challenges by parties with little or no direct interest in the person involved, but intent on promoting their own political and religious agenda through others helpless to respond. And along the way, we'll see a few more hapless individuals turned into national fodder for Congressional zealots and vilified from the bully pulpit simply because of their inaction and inattention to simple but important matters that everyone ought to know about, and far to many are ignorant of.

177 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:53:18pm

re: #161 Fenway_Nation
awww trying to ruin a great thread?? well..too late now
/grin

178 Locker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:53:22pm

re: #159 debutaunt

What is your definition of single payer?

Just going to link to the def I put up in the Saturday Morning Thread when we were talking about it.

[Link:LGF... ]

179 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:53:54pm

re: #154 quiet man

If they are all whores, why is dismissing Palins remark so bad??

If the stakes were less and the other side not so pushy in their lies, I would think Palin was wrong to say it..but since she got action with only one statement that brought even more people into consideration of what is in the one bill we can see..I am going to accept this little white distortion from her.

She lit one match against a forest fire..so My hose is aimed the other way..this time


Well you are saying you have no problem compromising your integrity because they do it too.

Fine. Your choice. Just don't post anything here where you object to anyone's integrity.

It is hard to claim the high ground when you are standing in mud.

180 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:53:57pm

re: #171 quiet man

Sorry, you feel that way. Mostly I agree with what you are saying...but I will not stand aside and pretend she is the bad person here.

No need to pretend. Lying is wrong.

181 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:54:04pm

Markets and Medicare

According to the trustees, Medicare's unfunded liability is $74 trillion -- five times that of Social Security. According to the Congressional Budget Office, health-care spending is on a course that could crowd out all other government programs. Clearly the time has come for fundamental reform.

And the government wants to add more government obligations on top of this insane debt?

/think about it, where is all this money going to come from?

182 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:54:10pm

re: #171 quiet man

Sorry, you feel that way. Mostly I agree with what you are saying...but I will not stand aside and pretend she is the bad person here.

chances are very good she had no idea what she was talking about...if she did and distorted the truth anyway then she is no better than the people she is criticizing...

183 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:54:41pm

re: #178 Locker

Just going to link to the def I put up in the Saturday Morning Thread when we were talking about it.

[Link:LGF... ]

Can you tell me in a word or two? Does it start with a 'g'?

184 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:54:53pm

re: #168 DEZes
I understand that feeling..the right will go far out of its way when lies are being told on our side..that is a principled stance and to be respected.

185 JacksonTn  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:54:59pm

re: #181 Killian Bundy

Markets and Medicare

And the government wants to add more government obligations on top of this insane debt?

/think about it, where is all this money going to come from?

KB ... Rich People! ... well until there are no more rich people ... then you are on your own buddy ...

186 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:55:37pm

re: #165 FrogMarch

ot: Armstrong wins Leadville 100.

on a flat tire, no less. Butt-kicker!

Heh. Last year he was beaten by Wiens who finished on a flat tire. Wiens got second this year.

187 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:55:56pm

re: #180 Sharmuta

No need to pretend. Lying is wrong.

Just a slight addendum to clarify for the comprehension-impaired, Sharm:

Lying is wrong...no matter who does it.

;-P

188 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:55:58pm

re: #182 albusteve

Chances are better that she knew exactly what she was talking about..she probably had one of the senate versions of the bill to read at least.

189 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:56:16pm

re: #180 Sharmuta

Sarah Palin calls herself a Christian, and then proceeds to 'bear false witness'. Lying is wrong 100% of the time.

190 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:56:43pm

Sarah Palin favors "death panels"!1!!1!

In recent weeks, right-wing groups have been pushing the myth that health care reform will somehow kill seniors. One of the most high profile voices pushing this lie has been Sarah Palin, who claimed President Obama will institute bureaucratic “death panels.” Today, again on her Facebook page, she continued the attack. Though some Republicans have rebuffed this absurd, inaccurate notion — like Johnny Isakson (R-GA), who called such talk “nuts” — others, like Newt Gingrich, have piled on to agree with Palin.

However, on April 16th 2008, then Gov. Sarah Palin endorsed some of the same end of life counseling she now decries as a form of euthanasia. In a proclamation announcing “Healthcare Decisions Day,” Palin urged public facilities to provide better information about advance directives, and made it clear that it is critical for seniors to be informed of such options

hat tip: iceweasel

191 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:56:50pm

re: #180 Sharmuta
If you are ready to apply the same standards to Obama..I will be glad to hear it.

192 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:57:00pm

re: #123 Sharmuta

Hooray for fear mongering on the backs of the elderly!

Indeed. Especially when it's people far younger who really need such counseling in the first place. The elderly, as a group, typically have their affairs in much better order than the young, or even the middle aged.

I'll reference again the Schiavo case, where a couple hour's worth of attention to end of life planning early on would have headed off years upon years of anguish for an entire family.

193 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:57:18pm

Love the way none of the Palin apologists have the balls to ding these posts down. But they'll sneak around and snark as if the bimbo wore them for them.

194 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:57:19pm

re: #181 Killian Bundy

Markets and Medicare


And the government wants to add more government obligations on top of this insane debt?

/think about it, where is all this money going to come from?

Yes, but "0" has pointed out how the post office really sucks so that just goes to show the the gubmint should be in charge of health care as well.
HUH!?

195 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:57:24pm

re: #184 quiet man

I understand that feeling..the right will go far out of its way when lies are being told on our side..that is a principled stance and to be respected.

We both know its not a perfect world, but maybe if we hold our politicians to a higher standard, a few of them may take the hint.
I can dream I guess.

196 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:57:41pm

re: #189 MrPaulRevere
Obama also calls himself a christian..so he is what, 100 times worse than Sarah??

197 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:57:59pm

re: #193 Cato the Elder

Love the way none of the Palin apologists have the balls to ding these posts down. But they'll sneak around and snark as if the bimbo wore them for them.


The douche is strong with this one...

198 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:58:21pm

re: #191 quiet man

If you are ready to apply the same standards to Obama..I will be glad to hear it.

I already do! I check for facts, man. That's what anti-idiotarian is about.

199 JacksonTn  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:59:07pm

re: #194 VegasRick

Yes, but "0" has pointed out how the post office really sucks so that just goes to show the the gubmint should be in charge of health care as well.
HUH!?

VR ... yes and I am sure all the employees of FedEx that got let go in Memphis some months ago feel like that company is doing really well ... that comparison was not good ...

200 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:59:10pm

re: #181 Killian Bundy

Markets and Medicare

And the government wants to add more government obligations on top of this insane debt?

/think about it, where is all this money going to come from?

unicorn farts. they power the factories too.
Earlier I suggested we manage our forests like medicare; promise 36 trillion board feet of lumber more than exists to one segment of the population, when that promise starts to kick in, redirect 1/3 the current harvest to a different segment of the population and promise them as much or more.

201 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:59:31pm

re: #196 quiet man

Obama also calls himself a christian..so he is what, 100 times worse than Sarah??

you are losing your grip with this Palin infatuation...she is not the answer, she will not save you from yourself...it sounds like you have personal ethical issues to deal with outside of politics

202 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:59:38pm

re: #162 Fenway_Nation

"Let me be clear..."

"Look..."

203 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:59:56pm

re: #195 DEZes
Maybe a dream..and one worth going for. Since I see this as one huge lie being driven like stake into our hearts, I am willing to bend a little bit here.

If she had said this in Malice then I would see a difference.

But Malice is not the driving factor here...Not even from Obama

204 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 4:59:59pm

re: #193 Cato the Elder

Love the way none of the Palin apologists have the balls to ding these posts down. But they'll sneak around and snark as if the bimbo wore them for them.

You are back on this crap again cato?

205 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:00:10pm

re: #202 FrogMarch


"Make no mistake"...

206 snowcrash  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:00:31pm

re: #195 DEZes
You have been to other worlds, right? lol Hi DEZ!

207 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:00:33pm

re: #193 Cato the Elder

Love the way none of the Palin apologists have the balls to ding these posts down. But they'll sneak around and snark as if the bimbo wore them for them.

Man, you must have your "condescending asshole" hat on today, because you're wearing it out!

///

208 JacksonTn  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:00:48pm

re: #202 FrogMarch

"Look..."

FM ... how long since he took office? ... I swear it seems like a decade ...

209 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:01:21pm

re: #169 Cathypop
Now now...you are talking about something you do not know about but
Thank you for your vote of confidence..

/grin

210 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:01:35pm

re: #206 snowcrash

You have been to other worlds, right? lol Hi DEZ!

Powerful stuff, that Romulan ale. ;)

211 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:01:37pm

re: #195 DEZes

We both know its not a perfect world, but maybe if we hold our politicians to a higher standard, a few of them may take the hint.
I can dream I guess.

The Party that stands up and says I'll leave you alone will get my vote.
Since that's just a pipe dream, I'm stuck voting for the one that will bother me the least.
Not a good situation, but hey, I've got beer.

How ya doing tonite, DEZinator ?

212 HelloDare  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:02:00pm

Latest Whitehouse Spam Message
August 14th, 2009 Posted in activists

URGENT ASSISTANCE – FROM USA
IMMEDIATE ATTENTION NEEDED: HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
FROM: BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA
202.456.1414 / 202.456.1111 FAX: 202.456.2461

DEAR SIR / MADAM,

I AM BARRACK OBAMA, SON OF THE DECEASED KENYAN MILLIONAIRE, AND CURRENTLY SERVING AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. THIS LETTER MIGHT SURPRISE YOU BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT MET NEITHER IN PERSON NOR BY CORRESPONDENCE.

I CAME TO KNOW OF YOU IN MY SEARCH FOR A RELIABLE AND REPUTABLE PERSON TO HANDLE A VERY CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS TRANSACTION, WHICH INVOLVES THE TRANSFER OF A HUGE SUM OF MONEY TO AN ACCOUNT REQUIRING MAXIMUM CONFIDENCE.

I AM WRITING YOU IN ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE PRIMARILY TO SEEK YOUR ASSISTANCE IN ACQUIRING HEALTHCARE FUNDS THAT ARE PRESENTLY TRAPPED IN THE POCKETS OF AMERICANS AND INSURANCE COMPANIES. MY PARTNERS AND I SOLICIT YOUR ASSISTANCE IN COMPLETING A TRANSACTION BEGUN BY MY FATHER, WHO HAD LONG BEEN ACTIVELY ENGAGED AS AN ECONOMIST IN KENYA,AND BRAVELY SERVED HIS COUNTRY AS HEAD LOOTER.IN THE DECADE OF THE NINETEEN SIXTIES, MY FATHER, SOUGHT TO WORK WITH THE GOOD OFFICES OF COMMUNIST COUNTRIES WROTE A PAPER TITLED “PROBLEMS FACING OUR SOCIALISM PUBLISHED IN THE EAST AFRICAN JOURNAL.

BEFORE MY FATHER’S LIFE TOOK A TAILSPIN INTO DRINKING AND POVERTY, HE OUTLINED A PLAN TO LOOT THE UNITED STATES OF 800 BILLION U.S. DOLLARS ($800,000,000,000). OUT OF THAT COST, THIRTY-SIX BILLION DOLLARS ($36,000,000,000) WERE DIVERTED TO HIS PARTNERS GE, GEORGE SOROS AND THE DEMOCRAT PARTY OF THE USA, AND SIXTEEN BILLION DOLLARS ($16,000,000,000) TO COMMUNIST PLANNERS NOW CALLED CZARS.

NOW THAT OUR INITIAL PLAN HAS BEEN SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED AND FUNDS DIVERTED WE ARE ON TO EVEN LARGER ENDEAVORS.

MY FAMILY IS CALLING FOR YOUR URGENT ASSISTANCE IN THE REMOVAL OF THE HEALTH CARE OF THE COUNTRY, AS THE DIVERSION OF THE FUNDS THAT WE WILL CONTROL.

UNFORTUNATELY, OUR PARTNERS ARE NOT WILLING TO SHOULDER THE BURDEN OF THIS NEW LOOTING, WHICH IN ITS UPCOMING PHASE MAY RAISE THE SUM OF 700 BILLION TO 2 TRILLION DOLLARS ($700,000,000,000-$2,000,000,000,000), BOTH IN THE INITIAL ACQUISITION AND IN LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT.

THAT IS WHY MY FAMILY AND OUR COLLEAGUES ARE URGENTLY SEEKING YOUR GRACIOUS ASSISTANCE. OUR DISTINGUISHED COLLEAGUES IN THIS BUSINESS TRANSACTION INCLUDE THE SITTING VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THE FED, AARP. AND BILL CLINTON, WHOSE PROFESSIONAL DEDICATION TO THE VENTURE WAS DEMONSTRATED IN THE RECENT REWARDING OF NORTH KOREA.

I WOULD BESEECH YOU TO TRANSFER A SUM EQUALING TEN TO FORTY-FIVE PERCENT (45 %) OF YOUR YEARLY INCOME TO OUR NEW TAX ACCOUNT TO AID IN THIS IMPORTANT VENTURE NOW.

THE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WILL FUNCTION AS OUR TRUSTED INTERMEDIARY. I PROPOSE THAT YOU MAKE THIS TRANSFER BEFORE THE FIFTEENTH (15TH) OF THE SEPTEMBER.

IF YOU DECIDE NOT TO SEND 45% OF YOUR INCOME NOW, WE WILL CAPTURING THIS SUM FROM YOU IN OTHER WAYS. JUST ASK OUR CANADIAN CONTACTS.

I KNOW THAT A TRANSACTION OF THIS MAGNITUDE WOULD MAKE ANYONE APPREHENSIVE AND WORRIED. BUT I AM ASSURING YOU THAT ALL WILL BE WELL AT THE END OF THE DAY.

A BOLD STEP TAKEN SHALL NOT BE REGRETTED, I ASSURE YOU. PLEASE DO BE INFORMED THAT THIS BUSINESS TRANSACTION IS 100% LEGAL. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO CO-OPERATE IN THIS TRANSACTION,PLEASE CONTACT OUR INTERMEDIARY REPRESENTATIVES TO FURTHER DISCUSS THE MATTER. OR, WE WILL CONTACT YOU. EITHER WAY.

I PRAY THAT YOU UNDERSTAND OUR PLIGHT. OUR CAUSE, MY FAMILY AND OUR COLLEAGUES WILL BE FOREVER GRATEFUL.

PLEASE REPLY IN STRICT CONFIDENCE TO THE CONTACT NUMBERS BELOW.

SINCERELY WITH WARM REGARDS, BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA

213 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:02:21pm

re: #196 quiet man

Because Obama lies, its OK for Sarah Palin to lie? Sorry, no sale.

214 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:02:49pm

re: #190 Sharmuta


That's one of the flimsiest guilt by association attempts I've seen yet.

215 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:03:03pm

re: #211 SasquatchOnSteroids

The Party that stands up and says I'll leave you alone will get my vote.
Since that's just a pipe dream, I'm stuck voting for the one that will bother me the least.
Not a good situation, but hey, I've got beer.

How ya doing tonite, DEZinator ?

Just twisted the cap off my 1st cold one, cheers fellow mythical beast. ;)

216 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:03:47pm

re: #207 talon_262

Man, you must have your "condescending asshole" hat on today, because you're wearing it out!

///

How could I wear it out if I didn't wear it, knucklehead?

QED LOL

217 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:04:21pm

re: #208 JacksonTn

FM ... how long since he took office? ... I swear it seems like a decade ...

It does feel like forever. Perhaps because we are witnessing creeping progressive socialism on the fast track. Time speeds up then drags by like a wounded animal. Not fun to watch.

218 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:04:36pm

re: #215 DEZes

Just twisted the cap off my 1st cold one, cheers fellow mythical beast. ;)

Beat me by that much.

Michelob Ultra, I'm dieting.

219 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:04:56pm

re: #181 Killian Bundy
Hi Killian - quick hitter here before I gotta go, but I read your comment and the link and I have to ask YOU, what do you think should be done about Medicare?
The link says 44 million Americans are dependent on Medicare. That's only 2 million short of the total that Obama claims have no health insurance at all. And I can also tell you that at least SOME Medicare Patients can't afford to pay the Medicare costs and expenses (premiums) we are charged now!
So how do we solve this?

220 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:05:00pm

re: #205 Fenway_Nation

"Make no mistake"...

Wasn't that Bush?

221 freetoken  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:05:07pm

re: #214 quiet man

That's one of the flimsiest guilt by association attempts I've seen yet.

Guilt by association? What Sharm is trying to get across to you is that Mrs. Palin is like most other politicians, and will change the message depending upon the audience and the time.

222 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:05:19pm

re: #214 quiet man

That's one of the flimsiest guilt by association attempts I've seen yet.

Cute attempt.

223 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:05:44pm

re: #200 spidly

Earlier I suggested we manage our forests like medicare; promise 36 trillion board feet of lumber more than exists to one segment of the population, when that promise starts to kick in, redirect 1/3 the current harvest to a different segment of the population and promise them as much or more.

/hey, Madoff is really good at running schemes like that and he's available

224 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:06:11pm

Every time Sarah Palin opens her mouth, she shows that she is not ready to be a "national" player. She is at least 10 years away and she has a lot of learning and seasoning ahead of her if she expects to be anything more than a regional political player.

225 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:06:20pm

re: #201 albusteve
I admit I like Sarah...I also admit I do not like Obama and what he has done or what he is doing. Since I am not perfect...and since I see a crushing wall of lies slide down from the party in power...I will grant some leeway..and very little of that to those in our party who stand up and point it out.

226 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:06:26pm

re: #221 freetoken

No- what he was doing with his retort was mocking Charles' earlier dismissal of Lioness' link.

227 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:06:45pm

re: #217 FrogMarch

It does feel like forever. Perhaps because we are witnessing creeping progressive socialism on the fast track. [...]

Either it's creeping or it's on the fast track. Pick your hobgoblin and ride it - you can't ride two at once.

228 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:07:21pm

re: #225 quiet man

I admit I like Sarah...I also admit I do not like Obama and what he has done or what he is doing. Since I am not perfect...and since I see a crushing wall of lies slide down from the party in power...I will grant some leeway..and very little of that to those in our party who stand up and point it out.

how much do you cost?...what will drive down your price?...think about it

229 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:07:44pm

re: #224 _RememberTonyC

I see Obama as doing the very same thing..only he is in power and he is the one driving this mess.

230 HelloDare  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:08:54pm
231 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:09:01pm

re: #139 snowcrash

To undergo medical procedures to look for a problem that may or may not exist is not how medicine works. If you exhibit changes in your annual screenings or are symptomatic, then you get the work up. And believe me if you come to the ER with even the vaguest of cardiac symptoms you go to the head of the line...even if it ends up being indigestion.

I would like to see that sort of testing be easier to get when you are in your mid sixties as I am. No, I have no symptoms of heart problems, but would not want a heart attack in order to get my ticker checked.

232 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:09:07pm

re: #212 HelloDare

Downding for the fuckin' shouting.

233 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:09:42pm

re: #218 SasquatchOnSteroids

Beat me by that much.

Michelob Ultra, I'm dieting.

SasquatchOnSteroidsOnaDiet.

That's a mouthful. ;)

234 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:09:55pm

re: #223 Killian Bundy

/hey, Madoff is really good at running schemes like that and he's available

I'm thinking Madoff wrote this bill. Probably had a hand in Fannie, Freddie, Social Security, medicare/caid...
If certain modes of business land you in prison for 150 years in the private sector, you should get double for foisting the same schemes through mandatory government compliance.

235 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:09:55pm

re: #232 Cato the Elder

Downding for the fuckin' shouting.

upding for visual necessity

236 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:10:16pm

re: #228 albusteve

I am free...and I support Palin for what she has said in the past.
I would like some ACORN cash that is being spooned around to counter
the administrations dissenters...but I cant go that far.

237 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:11:04pm

re: #225 quiet man

I admit I like Sarah...I also admit I do not like Obama and what he has done or what he is doing. Since I am not perfect...and since I see a crushing wall of lies slide down from the party in power...I will grant some leeway..and very little of that to those in our party who stand up and point it out.

Is what I'm hearing from you is that you're willing to sell out your integrity, your pride, and your soul for some perceived political "victories"?

Correct me if I'm wrong...

238 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:11:20pm

re: #222 Sharmuta
Thanks. Still true tho.

239 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:11:51pm

re: #236 quiet man

I am free...and I support Palin for what she has said in the past.
I would like some ACORN cash that is being spooned around to counter
the administrations dissenters...but I cant go that far.

no, you are pinned on your earliest admission that you accept Palin deceiving the issue...Obama and ACORN have nothing to do with it

240 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:11:52pm

re: #235 albusteve

upding for visual necessity

Sorry, not even the worst of the Nigerian spammers uses allcaps anymore. Fail.

241 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:11:59pm

I'll give the Republicans credit; It worked. Not all the Republicans are lying. I don't think Palin is very bright so she probably believes it. I suspect the "Death Panel" thing was a talking point given to her anyways. Glenn Beck is simply insane so he probably believes it too. Rush and Newt are the liars, they know better.

242 HelloDare  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:12:11pm

re: #232 Cato the Elder

Downding for the fuckin' shouting.

It's a parody of Nigerian spam, which is usually in all caps.

243 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:12:38pm

re: #242 HelloDare

It's a parody of Nigerian spam, which is usually in all caps.

Not.

244 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:13:03pm

re: #219 realwest

The link says 44 million Americans are dependent on Medicare. That's only 2 million short of the total that Obama claims have no health insurance at all. And I can also tell you that at least SOME Medicare Patients can't afford to pay the Medicare costs and expenses (premiums) we are charged now!
So how do we solve this?

Well, we'll probably never have the $72 trillion to keep all the promised mandates. So, off the top of my head, you're going to have to raise the age of eligibility and/or cut benefits. Other than just letting it totally collapse, I can't really think of any other options.

/and the gap is not just increasing, it's accelerating over time, so the longer we wait to actually do something . . .

245 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:13:17pm

re: #240 Cato the Elder

Sorry, not even the worst of the Nigerian spammers uses allcaps anymore. Fail.

speak UP!...what's Niagra got to do with it?

246 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:13:26pm

re: #233 DEZes

SasquatchOnSteroidsOnaDiet.

That's a mouthful. ;)

My scale has become my enemy.
Whatcha gonna do ?

247 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:14:02pm

re: #246 SasquatchOnSteroids

My scale has become my enemy.
Whatcha gonna do ?

Use the scale for target practice.

248 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:14:13pm

re: #237 talon_262
Be glad to. You are wrong. Accepting Palins distortion as no big deal is what I am doing. If you want to damn her or me for it..then that is your privilege.

But to do so, you would have to be far more cynical than I am in poltics.

249 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:14:35pm

OT: just finished watching Slumdog Millionaire, I put off watching it because it was so hyped that I thought I'd be let down. Great film. It reminded why I usually hate Hollywood love stories. They're usually targeted at chicks or they insert a useless love story into an action film. Slumdog is a great piece of film making.

250 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:15:01pm

re: #141 debutaunt

And?

Then her fellow nuts get energized about death panels and we miss discussing real issues in favor of talking about fantasies.

251 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:15:50pm

Ann Althouse rips "the moderate voice"
Heh.

What? Did you even read the op-ed you are shitting on? Since when is supporting ill-formed, sprawling legislative reform the be-all and end-all of wholesomeness?

252 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:15:59pm

re: #221 freetoken

I get that..tho sharmuta needs to understand the scope and the effects of what Palin said in AK and Obamas full court lie

253 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:16:04pm

re: #248 quiet man

Be glad to. You are wrong. Accepting Palins distortion as no big deal is what I am doing. If you want to damn her or me for it..then that is your privilege.

But to do so, you would have to be far more cynical than I am in poltics.

that's simply laughable...projecting cynicsm

254 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:16:12pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

That would be nice but sadly, it seems, there is no place for integrity in politics today.

More like there's no place for informed, rational debate.

Perhaps there never was, but we do like to view the past through rose-colored glasses.

Of course the counseling has nothing to do with "death panels", but any major cost-savings initiatives are necessarily going to function as "death panels". Which is no big deal, since every hospital already practices the same function, anyway. It just makes a really difficult topic for political discussion - which is why it should NOT BE a topic of political discussion, and a major reason why nationalizing healthcare will always be a very, very difficult topic - it brings some very difficult and unpleasant issues front and center. And the smug crowing about this from the Democrats is more offensive than Palin's confusions.

Doesn't mean improvements, even nationalization (whether improvement or not) can't be done, just it is always going to be difficult, and most especially when we have such a dearth of leaders capable of heading the discussion.

255 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:16:18pm

The politics of this health care/insurance business smells to high heaven. So much rot is being heaped on by all parties. The distilled argument is completely idealogical in my opinion. A powerful central government is good or it is not. End of story.

I, for one, will not get bogged down in the detail of death panel or no. The whole power grab by the Democrats is transparent and offensive to me. I would like to see someone stand up and simply say this is all wrong on its face. Government is out of line when it crosses into private enterprise in the form of direct competition whether it is loans, cars, health care, or what have you. This is obvious to some of us. Set the rules so the playing field is level Mr/Ms Government and get the hell out of the picture.

T. Roosevelt, the trust buster, would be appalled at this naked attempt at government monopoly.

Where is the spokesman for my point of view? I think a lot of people feel exactly the same way, but the current administration has set the debate so that now we are down to details - and the opposition is buying into it. There should be no discussion of details - none. This legislation is dead wrong however one chooses to slice or dice it.

256 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:16:49pm

re: #247 DEZes

Use the scale for target practice.

Well, I was thinking of that and taking all of the mirrors out of the house, but I could be in better shape. I figure if this healthcare thingamashit passes, I'm gonna need all the health I can get.

257 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:16:55pm

BBIAB

258 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:17:04pm

re: #250 avanti

Bull...we have spoken of them non stop for days..your message isn't one the country wants to hear

259 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:17:20pm

re: #223 Killian Bundy

/hey, Madoff is really good at running schemes like that and he's available

Indeed, and perfectly positioned.

He can write the bill, and then be executed after it passes.

/very aztec

260 swamprat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:17:52pm

re: #241 Killgore Trout

You take that back!
About...peers at post...


nevermind

261 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:17:59pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

OT: just finished watching Slumdog Millionaire, I put off watching it because it was so hyped that I thought I'd be let down. Great film. It reminded why I usually hate Hollywood love stories. They're usually targeted at chicks or they insert a useless love story into an action film. Slumdog is a great piece of film making.

Danny Boyle!

Loved everything about it. You could almost *smell* it, couldn't you? Beautiful and horrific and the soundtrack was killer bee.

262 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:18:44pm

re: #248 quiet man

Be glad to. You are wrong. Accepting Palins distortion as no big deal is what I am doing. If you want to damn her or me for it..then that is your privilege.

But to do so, you would have to be far more cynical than I am in poltics.

So the ends justify the means?

263 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:19:00pm

re: #250 avanti

Then her fellow nuts get energized about death panels and we miss discussing real issues in favor of talking about fantasies.

as far as I'm concerned the whole bill is garbage and should be junked...you have your debater pals here and that's fine, but it's all a waste of time to try and split every hair like you do...post away tho...but you yourself avoid the real issues more than most...the epitome of fantasy

264 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:20:57pm

Hey, look at the bright side.

/maybe the United States will win a few hundred trillion in Galactic Powerball and all our financial problems will be solved

265 Reluctant Democrat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:21:18pm

re: #176 SixDegrees

I have several doctors in my family, and they engage in "end of life counseling" every day! And most people realize that it's futile to over treat when their loved one is terminal and they make the right decision.

Not every doctor is, as the bill implies, soaking the elderly for their Medicare dollars. Why should the government be involved at all in this decision, whether just incentivizing it or ordering it? Does Obama really believe that some bureaucrat can do a better job at this than a doctor or hospital ethics committee?

266 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:21:50pm

re: #262 Sharmuta
Not really..she lit a match against a forest fire. Her distortion isn't the biggest one in the discussion by far...I think it wasn't so bad that we on the right have to take whatever the real liars want to shove down our throats

267 swamprat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:22:26pm

re: #264 Killian Bundy

We already did. I just hope we are not squandering our "talents".

268 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:23:14pm

re: #261 austin_blue

The little kids did a great acting job. There were a few cultural references that might get lost on Western audiences. Like the stuff about cutting off limbs and intentional blinding to make kids more profitable beggars. It's very real and fairly common. I also enjoyed hearing the Hindi curse words again. The only Hindi I remember are the curse words.

269 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:23:28pm

re: #248 quiet man

Be glad to. You are wrong. Accepting Palins distortion as no big deal is what I am doing. If you want to damn her or me for it..then that is your privilege.

But to do so, you would have to be far more cynical than I am in poltics.

You don't have to justify your apparent lack of morals, decency, and/or common sense to me, but I will spell my read on the current situation with Palin out for you:

Lying (and deception) is wrong...no matter who does it (or why).

/don't piss in my boot and tell me it's raining...

270 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:23:34pm

re: #241 Killgore Trout

I'll give the Republicans credit; It worked. Not all the Republicans are lying. I don't think Palin is very bright so she probably believes it. I suspect the "Death Panel" thing was a talking point given to her anyways. Glenn Beck is simply insane so he probably believes it too. Rush and Newt are the liars, they know better.

In fairness, the section in question is very poorly written, and extends government action where it simply isn't needed. If the government wants to provide a pamphlet outlining end of life and critical care concerns, that's a worthy thing to do; going beyond that and mandating not only counseling, but government-run counseling, is stupid and pointless. This isn't so much a medical issue as it is a legal issue, and anything beyond reminding people of the importance of such planning along with a summary of the issues involved is all that's needed - not some nebulous, government-run counseling program.

Of course, that's the sort of crap and the sort of misunderstandings that are bound to arise when you try to force a thousand page bill through Congress in record time, without public input or substantive debate. The focus hasn't been on getting anything right; it's been on getting something done, as quickly as possible.

To a large degree, the crap thrown at the bill is a response to the crap it contains. There are shit-flinging monkeys aplenty on both sides.

271 shiplord kirel  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:23:36pm

"One more such victory, and we shall be undone."
-Pyrrhus, Battle of Asculum 279 BCE

272 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:23:47pm

re: #266 quiet man

Not really..she lit a match against a forest fire. Her distortion isn't the biggest one in the discussion by far...I think it wasn't so bad that we on the right have to take whatever the real liars want to shove down our throats

I'm not 'we'...drop the collectivism..your principles are your own and supercede politics

273 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:24:05pm

re: #263 albusteve

as far as I'm concerned the whole bill is garbage and should be junked...you have your debater pals here and that's fine, but it's all a waste of time to try and split every hair like you do...post away tho...but you yourself avoid the real issues more than most...the epitome of fantasy

Seems you're in the majority


Thirty-five percent (35%) of American voters say passage of the bill currently working its way through Congress would be better than not passing any health care reform legislation this year. However, a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that most voters (54%) say no health care reform passed by Congress this year would be the better option

Among those not affiliated with either major party, 23% would like the Congressional reform to pass while 66% would rather the legislators take no action.

Voters who earn less than $20,000 a year are evenly divided but a majority of all other voters would prefer no action. Middle income voters, those who earn from $40,000 to $75,000 a year, are most strongly in favor of taking no action.

274 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:24:14pm

re: #265 Reluctant Democrat

What? They are not cutting off appendiges for profit? I heard, right from the top, that that is so!

275 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:24:28pm

re: #239 albusteve
They have everything to do with it...they are lying huge on this bill and deserve to be called on those lies..One comment from Palin hardly puts her in the same position.

276 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:24:44pm

re: #270 SixDegrees


In fairness, the section in question is very poorly written, and extends government action where it simply isn't needed.


Bullshit. However, it's an effective talking point so I don't expect it to be abandoned.

277 swamprat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:25:05pm

re: #269 talon_262


/don't piss in my boot and tell me it's raining...


just a tingle going up your leg

278 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:25:40pm

re: #275 quiet man

They have everything to do with it...they are lying huge on this bill and deserve to be called on those lies..One comment from Palin hardly puts her in the same position.

yes it does...

279 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:25:46pm

re: #275 quiet man

They have everything to do with it...they are lying huge on this bill and deserve to be called on those lies..One comment from Palin hardly puts her in the same position.

Yes it does. She's a liar just like all the other liars.

280 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:26:09pm

re: #269 talon_262
Fine..I respect such purity in politics...You must be much farther to the right than even I am and a stronger opponent of Obamas administration.

I take my hat off to you for that.

281 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:27:07pm

re: #280 quiet man

Fine..I respect such purity in politics...You must be much farther to the right than even I am and a stronger opponent of Obamas administration.

I take my hat off to you for that.

No- you're farther to the right if you think lying and fear mongering are good political tactics.

282 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:27:15pm

re: #279 Sharmuta
I look forward to seeing you state that in a town hall meeting sometime.

Hopefully to Obamas face..or McCaskill's or specters..

283 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:27:52pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

The democrats seem to think so. have you seen the latest polls??

284 horse  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:28:09pm

In a speech given by Sarah Palin
She warned of no care if ur ailin'
No prioritized care
For those in wheelchair
They'll book you on the next pyre salin'

Cato's fault, all I can do is think of limericks now. :)

285 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:29:00pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

No- you're farther to the right if you think lying and fear mongering are good political tactics.

hahaha!...oh boy

286 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:29:27pm

re: #283 quiet man

The democrats seem to think so. have you seen the latest polls??

I think it's great the right wants to emulate the hypocrites on the left. Knock yourself out.

287 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:29:57pm

re: #275 quiet man

They have everything to do with it...they are lying huge on this bill and deserve to be called on those lies..One comment from Palin hardly puts her in the same position.

It does when she's been ordained as the GOP's Great White Hope by some, including the MFMSM...if the supposed best that the GOP has to counter Dear Leader and the Donks misrepresents or flat out lies about a subject as important as this, then what can we (or anyone, for that matter) trust her on?

288 avanti  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:30:03pm

re: #258 quiet man

Bull...we have spoken of them non stop for days..your message isn't one the country wants to hear

To be fair "some of the country does not want to hear" ? Health care was something a big majority wanted until the distortions started, not it's 50/50.

289 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:30:21pm

I need something stronger to drink...

290 Reluctant Democrat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:30:32pm

re: #274 The Shadow Do

Sure, and when it's really slow, they cut off each other's feet! Heck, it's $35K, Dude, (according to Obama) and you can still walk pretty well on one.

291 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:30:44pm

re: #289 DEZes

I need something stronger to drink...

I'll have what you're having.

292 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:31:10pm

re: #229 quiet man

I see Obama as doing the very same thing..only he is in power and he is the one driving this mess.


i didn't vote for Obama ...i voted for McCain in spite of Palin being on the ticket

293 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:31:16pm

I will BBL

This is not worth the downdings.

294 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:31:27pm

Hey quiet man thanks for downdinging my comments on the music thread, including the following inflammatory statement:

I've always liked Indian music and Indian influenced pop/funk etc:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Talk about petty, not to mention sad.

295 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:31:32pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

I'll have what you're having.

"Passes the bottle."

296 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:32:07pm

re: #287 talon_262

It does when she's been ordained as the GOP's Great White Hope by some, including the MFMSM...if the supposed best that the GOP has to counter Dear Leader and the Donks misrepresents or flat out lies about a subject as important as this, then what can we (or anyone, for that matter) trust her on?

I thought the GWH stuff sort of vanished when she resigned, no? That's why I just don't get it when the whole world jumps to attention when she hits 'send' on her Blackberry.

297 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:32:18pm

re: #292 _RememberTonyC
I didnt vote for Obama either..I voted for Palin even tho McCain was on the ticket

298 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:32:23pm

re: #288 avanti

To be fair "some of the country does not want to hear" ? Health care was something a big majority wanted until the distortions started, not it's 50/50.

Wrong and wrong again. They are not distortions and you may want to check the 50/50 dealy.

299 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:32:24pm

Are there lefties screaming about "Death Panels?" I kind of remember a lot of hue and cry over the possibility of provisions of the patriot act being used for all sorts of crap not actually contained in the patriot act. Now we have provisions here in HR3200 that could be used in the manner hyped though it is not the intention. You think the possibility might be enough to more carefully craft this provision?
It is a tired example, but what happens when there's only one game in town and it'd really be cheaper if you just went away - gotta think about 36 trillion in unfunded liabilities. I'd rather have this fight with a private insurer with a media that is hostile to them than in a single payer system that are in love with government.

300 fizzlogic  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:33:00pm

re: #283 quiet man

Which lies are you talking about? That our healthcare system is rated 37th in the world? Or that we pay twice as much for our system per capita than others and yet nearly 50 million aren't covered?

301 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:33:07pm

re: #265 Reluctant Democrat

I have several doctors in my family, and they engage in "end of life counseling" every day! And most people realize that it's futile to over treat when their loved one is terminal and they make the right decision.

Not every doctor is, as the bill implies, soaking the elderly for their Medicare dollars. Why should the government be involved at all in this decision, whether just incentivizing it or ordering it? Does Obama really believe that some bureaucrat can do a better job at this than a doctor or hospital ethics committee?

The problem arises when someone is suddenly incapacitated and unable to give directions for their own care, and has made no provisions for such a situation. If you're graced with the gift of a disease that's going to kill you in a matter of weeks, or months, and are still able to manage your own affairs, there's no issue at all. But the former case occurs with alarming frequency, and often results in actions being taken that the patient and their families don't want.

Most of this is a legal matter. Physicians get thrust into the role because they are on the front lines, but it's really something an attorney with expertise in this area ought to manage, and it's something best dealt with in a calm, relaxed, unpressured setting long before any crisis arises. Plans also ought to be reviewed every once in a while, as circumstances change - the number of second wives who see their husband's estate transferred to a previous spouse because hubby never bothered to update his will is astonishing.

Whether government involvement should exceed anything more than publishing a short pamphlet, and maybe some public service announcement campaigns, is doubtful. But getting the word out and encouraging people to take action, even at a young age, is a worthy thing.

302 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:33:23pm

re: #294
Jimmah

you werent in this thread...tho you felt that down dinging me was okay..whats up with that??

303 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:33:47pm

re: #280 quiet man

Fine..I respect such purity in politics...You must be much farther to the right than even I am and a stronger opponent of Obamas administration.

I take my hat off to you for that.

No, I'm just willing to do what is right and stand by my principles, not letting ideological "purity" come into play.

/if you can't take that, then kiss my ass...

304 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:33:49pm

re: #293 quiet man

re: #294 Jimmah

Nice juxtaposition there.

305 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:34:22pm

re: #300 trendsurfer
Try the one about people getting to keep thier private healthcare first, K??

306 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:34:23pm

re: #268 Killgore Trout

The little kids did a great acting job. There were a few cultural references that might get lost on Western audiences. Like the stuff about cutting off limbs and intentional blinding to make kids more profitable beggars. It's very real and fairly common. I also enjoyed hearing the Hindi curse words again. The only Hindi I remember are the curse words.

I've been a Bollywood fan for a while and was pleasantly surprised how well the form was handled by a Western director.

Oh, and did you hear that Shah Rukh Khan was detained for two hours by Customs in Newark Airport the other day? I mean, this is Shah Rukh freakin' Khan we are talking about here, the most famous actor in Asia. It'd be like Tom Hanks being detained in Mumbai. People kept telling the Customs Agents who he was. They didn't listen. His "name was on a computer".

307 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:34:37pm

re: #293 quiet man

I will BBL

This is not worth the downdings.

Finally...a statement from you that makes sense.

308 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:35:24pm

re: #297 quiet man

I didnt vote for Obama either..I voted for Palin even tho McCain was on the ticket

even a broken clock is right twice a day ... for a minute.

309 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:35:35pm

for Sarah...shake it up baby

310 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:36:30pm

re: #304 wrenchwench

It was Jimmahs first post on this thread..and he often lurks and downdings people in threads he isnt in.

311 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:36:49pm

re: #302 quiet man

you werent in this thread...

Who made you the thread police? Do we need special passports now? Are you the Gatekeeper?

312 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:36:52pm

re: #302 quiet man

you werent in this thread...tho you felt that down dinging me was okay..whats up with that??

But I am in this thread - I would have posted earlier had I not been distracted by your pathetic behaviour on the other one. There is no defence for your sad behaviour but go on - have another try.

313 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:37:28pm

re: #307 talon_262

Read slower..and try to leave your emotional response ourtside of it..

have fun now.

314 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:37:53pm

Hee hee. You guys are funny.

315 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:38:21pm

re: #314 wrenchwench

Hee hee. You guys are funny.

You picking on my looks again?
///

316 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:38:26pm

re: #310 quiet man

It was Jimmahs first post on this thread..and he often lurks and downdings people in threads he isnt in.

go tell your teacher if it's such a big deal...

317 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:38:34pm

re: #313 quiet man

Read slower..and try to leave your emotional response ourtside of it..

have fun now.

Weren't you the one who was talking about anger earlier, now you have the nerve to talk about others being emotional?

318 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:38:38pm

re: #276 Killgore Trout

Bullshit. However, it's an effective talking point so I don't expect it to be abandoned.

There's no point in having the government provide counseling in this or any other matter. Having them provide information is fine, but it ought to be up to the individual to seek out counseling and make individual arrangements on their own. It's extremely easy to come by. It's also a legal matter, and legal counseling provided by the government is far outside the scope of a health care bill.

If the bill had been more carefully crafted, it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place. If the Democrats don't want controversy, one step would be to provide a bill that is well written and well understood, at least by the authors, so such objections arising from nebulous wording don't arise in the first place, and if they do arise they can be met with rational explanations instead of attempts to avoid discussion and blame opponents for "astroturfing."

319 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:38:51pm

re: #312 Jimmah


yeah right..you have done it many times to me..you were so distraught, right??

Real people can disagree without the whole thread downdings, jimmah

320 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:39:15pm

re: #306 austin_blue

I've been a Bollywood fan for a while and was pleasantly surprised how well the form was handled by a Western director.

Oh, and did you hear that Shah Rukh Khan was detained for two hours by Customs in Newark Airport the other day? I mean, this is Shah Rukh freakin' Khan we are talking about here, the most famous actor in Asia. It'd be like Tom Hanks being detained in Mumbai. People kept telling the Customs Agents who he was. They didn't listen. His "name was on a computer".

I'm very glad they didn't try to re-write the script and change it to kids living in Detroit.

I hear Khan actually had to call the Indian embassy to convince them he wasn't a terrorism threat. The dude's like the Bollywood version of Ron Jeremy. It's difficult to find a Bollywood movie without him.

321 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:39:16pm

re: #317 Sharmuta
I am not angry..are you??

322 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:39:41pm

it's the saturday evening pissing thread

323 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:00pm

re: #310 quiet man

It was Jimmahs first post on this thread..and he often lurks and downdings people in threads he isn't in.

No, I usually do what most people do when they are catching up in a thread - read down, ding up or down where appropriate, then post when I reach the bottom or thereabouts.

Now lets get back to you - you do realise that downdinging 'neutral' posts like that just makes you look like an unhappy idiot don't you?

324 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:02pm

re: #321 quiet man

I am not angry..are you??

No- I'm pretty amused though. Your mental gymnastics are entertaining.

325 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:06pm

re: #305 quiet man

Try the one about people getting to keep thier private healthcare first, K??

re: #317 Sharmuta

Weren't you the one who was talking about anger earlier, now you have the nerve to talk about others being emotional?

Hey, it's all fun and games til someone else's psyche gets hurt!

///

326 BignJames  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:24pm

Timeouts may be forthcoming.

327 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:27pm

re: #315 DEZes

You picking on my looks again?
///

Heavens, no. I like high, gray foreheads...

328 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:28pm

re: #319 quiet man

yeah right..you have done it many times to me..you were so distraught, right??

Real people can disagree without the whole thread downdings, jimmah

do they need to be honest about it?...karma is a wonderful teacher

329 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:42pm

re: #321 quiet man

I am not angry..are you??

I'm pretty pissed myself. The current set of thieves in the WH are worse than the last ones.

330 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:52pm

re: #284 horse

A demagoguette name of Palin
Could not stop her party from failin'.
Though her lies caused a stir
They rebounded on her.
Yet her doltish disciples keep railin'.

Learn from the master, son. ;^)

331 fizzlogic  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:40:58pm

re: #305 quiet man

So the Dems have a secret plan to rid everyone of their current insurance? If it's a plan to force the private insurance companies to go non-profit than I'm on board with that secret plan. I can't wait to vote Democrat next time around. ;)

332 freetoken  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:41:01pm

Since we're talking about "conservative" politicians... the Curmudgeon has an update on Texas:

Texas Creationism: Gail Lowe is McLeroy’s Clone

As Gail Lowe takes the helm of the State Board of Education, the turmoil-laden panel that has long been a battleground in the fight between social conservatives and liberal watchdogs, the incoming chairwoman is decidedly unapologetic about her conservative Christian views.

[...]

This country was founded on Judeo Christian principles and to say otherwise is to deny what is very unique about our country,” Lowe said in a recent interview with The Associated Press. “The principle of church and state would say the government cannot mandate anyone can or cannot belong to any particular church.”

[quoting the Houston Chronicle]

333 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:41:04pm

re: #322 _RememberTonyC

it's the saturday evening pissing thread

I have a big 1

334 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:41:22pm

re: #245 albusteve

speak UP!...what's Niagra got to do with it?

Did you say Cialis?

335 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:41:45pm

re: #322 _RememberTonyC

it's the saturday evening pissing thread

That usually comes after the SNDT!

336 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:41:56pm

re: #319 quiet man

yeah right..you have done it many times to me..you were so distraught, right??

Real people can disagree without the whole thread downdings, jimmah

Garbage. And looking up there again I see I am hardly alone in finding several of your posts worthy of a downding.

337 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:41:58pm

re: #327 wrenchwench

Heavens, no. I like highhuge, gray foreheads...

338 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:42:00pm

re: #324 Sharmuta
Thanks

Jimmah I try to keep it all equal..when someone is downdinging me not in the post I feel they need the down ding twice as much.

What rules do you follow??

339 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:42:07pm

re: #326 BignJames

Timeouts may be forthcoming.

we like to call them beer runs...
jus kidding

340 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:42:29pm

re: #312 Jimmah

But I am in this thread - I would have posted earlier had I not been distracted by your pathetic behaviour on the other one. There is no defence for your sad behaviour but go on - have another try.

They just skedaddled...it was becoming more than clear that no one was buying their stance of "the ends justify the means" in regards to the Palin "death panels" crap and they were tired of taking karma hits for it.

341 DEZes  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:42:55pm

Heading to the windows thread.
Anyone else?
See you there...

342 BignJames  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:43:24pm

re: #339 albusteve

we like to call them beer runs...
jus kidding


That could work.

343 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:43:43pm

re: #300 trendsurfer

Which lies are you talking about? That our healthcare system is rated 37th in the world? Or that we pay twice as much for our system per capita than others and yet nearly 50 million aren't covered?


Could you please break that down for me? Just place a nember beside each of the following letters

A) how many of those are illegal aleins
B) how many of those qualify for state programs but haven't applied
C) how many of those have their own Health Savings plan used for catastrpophic emergencies only, thus saving money on monthly premiums
D) how many of them are lets say between the ages of 18 and 35 and opt NOT to have $$$ taken out of their paychecks, instead using that money for a better car, a nicer condo, eating out more often, etc?

344 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:43:52pm

re: #300 trendsurfer

Which lies are you talking about? That our healthcare system is rated 37th in the world? Or that we pay twice as much for our system per capita than others and yet nearly 50 million aren't covered?

You might want to insert some linkage or such like

345 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:43:52pm

re: #340 talon_262

Guess I spoke too soon...

346 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:43:56pm

re: #334 Cato the Elder

Did you say Cialis?

what color are they?...I get confused

347 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:44:17pm

re: #333 albusteve

I have a big 1


lucky dog!

348 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:44:18pm

Ice - Glad you're hear. You're Obama's advisor again... (remember one of our last discussions?).

Can you rank order these strategies from best to worst if these were the only choices and comment as you see fit?

1 - Send clear signals soon (by end of August) to Congress that you will define what is "acceptable victory" for those writing the legislation.

2 - No changes to plan. Let the legislators write. Obama continues to sell and sooner or later the two roads will meet.

3 - Call a timeout. Re-group and come up with a new approach that gives Obama plausible room to say "We heard you and we are adapting".

4 - Do an LBJ and lean as hard as you possibly can on the Blue Dogs to submit and vote for the bill with a public option.

5 - Do an LBJ and lean as hard as you possibly can on the progs to submit and vote for the bill w/o a public option.

349 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:44:38pm

re: #335 VegasRick

That usually comes after the SNDT!

First we drink, then come the golden showers.

350 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:44:43pm

re: #335 VegasRick

That usually comes after the SNDT!

LOL ... Ding

351 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:44:54pm

re: #338 quiet man

Thanks

Jimmah I try to keep it all equal..when someone is downdinging me not in the post I feel they need the down ding twice as much.

What rules do you follow??

Hey, what 'rules' were you following when you felt the need to downding this?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

352 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:45:00pm

re: #328 albusteve
Not that I have seen


re: #336 Jimmah

Maybe so..but then those people were actually in the post speaking

I am done with this topic for now.

353 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:45:09pm

re: #348 Pianobuff

Crappo: hear = here. Stupid stupid stupid.

354 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:45:14pm

re: #320 Killgore Trout

I'm very glad they didn't try to re-write the script and change it to kids living in Detroit.

I hear Khan actually had to call the Indian embassy to convince them he wasn't a terrorism threat. The dude's like the Bollywood version of Ron Jeremy. It's difficult to find a Bollywood movie without him.

Yes he did and yes, he is. I am a straight white man, but I can understand why certain humans react to him as they do:

Image: shah-rukh-khan.jpg

No one does the smolder like Khan. Also a hell of a singer and dancer.

355 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:45:52pm

Just to toss this out there: if there's a plan to dismantle private insurance plans, why haven't we heard anything from the private insurance companies? Seems to me they'd be pretty pissed off over such an idea, and they have never been shy about flexing their very large lobbying muscles in the past. Even if they were bought off somehow, like Big Pharma apparently was, they'd be left with the bulk of their business in return for acquiescence on some smaller point - again, like Big Pharma apparently was.

356 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:45:53pm

re: #338 quiet man

Thanks

Jimmah I try to keep it all equal..when someone is downdinging me not in the post I feel they need the down ding twice as much.

What rules do you follow??

oh fer god's sake...you endorse this thing so live with it...there are options if you didn't give such a shit about your popularity around here

357 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:46:02pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

First we drink, then come the golden showers.

Call me Danae...not. //

I'll leave before that part, thanks. :)

358 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:46:23pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

Not to invoke the shade of Bobby Brown, or anything...

359 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:46:43pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

First we drink, then come the golden showers.

OMGawd...prevert

360 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:47:03pm

re: #338 quiet man

Thanks

Jimmah I try to keep it all equal..when someone is downdinging me not in the post I feel they need the down ding twice as much.

What rules do you follow??

I downding posts that I strongly disagree with or find to be idiotic or abusive. You on the other hand downdinging is a randomly applied expression of butt-hurt.

361 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:47:21pm

re: #355 SixDegrees

Just to toss this out there: if there's a plan to dismantle private insurance plans, why haven't we heard anything from the private insurance companies? Seems to me they'd be pretty pissed off over such an idea, and they have never been shy about flexing their very large lobbying muscles in the past. Even if they were bought off somehow, like Big Pharma apparently was, they'd be left with the bulk of their business in return for acquiescence on some smaller point - again, like Big Pharma apparently was.

Guaranteed return with no risk = no brainer.

362 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:47:38pm

re: #358 Cato the Elder

Not to invoke the shade of Bobby Brown, or anything...

Umm, I think that was R. Kelly who was into the golden showers thing...

363 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:47:40pm

re: #358 Cato the Elder

Not to invoke the shade of Bobby Brown, or anything...

Who would do anything to get ahead.

364 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:48:17pm

re: #362 talon_262

Umm, I think that was R. Kelly who was into the golden showers thing...

Methinks Cato might be referring to a Zappa number off of Sheik Yerbouti...no?

365 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:48:38pm

re: #355 SixDegrees

if there's a plan to dismantle private insurance plans, why haven't we heard anything from the private insurance companies
Many are saying it's them thats quielty behind the oncoming onslaught of TV/ Radio spots we're be seeing/ hearing anti-legislation

366 BignJames  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:48:46pm

re: #355 SixDegrees


Do you know what the avg. progfit margin for a health ins. co. is?

367 tradewind  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:49:08pm

re: #330 Cato the Elder

That sounds good... what time should we expect him?

368 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:49:13pm

re: #352 quiet man

Not that I have seen

re: #336 Jimmah

Maybe so..but then those people were actually in the post speaking

I am done with this topic for now.

No you're not. It's not over till Obama tells us to stop waterboarding you.

369 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:49:27pm

re: #366 BignJames

Do you know what the avg. progfit margin for a health ins. co. is?

3%!
whatta I win?

370 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:49:36pm

re: #361 The Shadow Do

Guaranteed return with no risk = no brainer.

Should have completed the equation:
= facism (works real good for some select few by the way)

371 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:49:38pm

re: #332 freetoken

Since we're talking about "conservative" politicians... the Curmudgeon has an update on Texas:

Texas Creationism: Gail Lowe is McLeroy’s Clone

Freetoken-

They are interchangeable parts down here. One leaves, another whacko fills the slot. It'll be interesting to see Kay Bailey and Governor Goodhair and their minions kick each other's guts out for the next year in the Governor's race. Kay Bailey, as I'm sure you will hear, is a secret Socialist! I sure as hell know I will.

;-)

372 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:50:05pm

re: #348 Pianobuff

Ice - Glad you're hear. You're Obama's advisor again... (remember one of our last discussions?).

Can you rank order these strategies from best to worst if these were the only choices and comment as you see fit?

1 - Send clear signals soon (by end of August) to Congress that you will define what is "acceptable victory" for those writing the legislation.

2 - No changes to plan. Let the legislators write. Obama continues to sell and sooner or later the two roads will meet.

3 - Call a timeout. Re-group and come up with a new approach that gives Obama plausible room to say "We heard you and we are adapting".

4 - Do an LBJ and lean as hard as you possibly can on the Blue Dogs to submit and vote for the bill with a public option.

5 - Do an LBJ and lean as hard as you possibly can on the progs to submit and vote for the bill w/o a public option.

Hey pianobuff!
I remember that convo...but it's a weekend and I'm a bit, uh, not myself.

Is the question what should Obama do, or what will Obama do?

373 BignJames  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:50:29pm

re: #369 spidly

3%!
whatta I win?


weren't axin you...smarty

374 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:50:41pm

re: #372 iceweasel

Hey pianobuff!
I remember that convo...but it's a weekend and I'm a bit, uh, not myself.

Is the question what should Obama do, or what will Obama do?

Play it both ways if you've got the time and the inclination.

375 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:51:39pm

re: #300 trendsurfer

and yet nearly 50 million aren't covered?

Reformers' Claims Just Don't Add Up

As for the estimated 47 million not covered by health insurance, 20 million can afford to buy it, according to a study by former CBO Director June O'Neill. Most of the other 27 million are single and under 35, with as many as a third illegal aliens.

When it's all whittled down, as few as 12 million are unable to buy insurance — less than 4% of a population of 305 million. For this we need to nationalize 17% of our nation's $14 trillion economy and change the current care that 89% like?

/let's find a solution for the 4% who actually need help instead of tearing down the whole private insurance scheme and nationalizing health care

376 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:52:03pm

re: #372 iceweasel

Hey pianobuff!
I remember that convo...but it's a weekend and I'm a bit, uh, not myself.

Is the question what should Obama do, or what will Obama do?

exactly...move forward and play it as it unfolds

377 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:52:17pm

re: #372 iceweasel

Hey pianobuff!
I remember that convo...but it's a weekend and I'm a bit, uh, not myself.

Is the question what should Obama do, or what will Obama do?

So that means you'll now be reasonable and non-snarky!?!?!

//

378 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:52:42pm

re: #374 Pianobuff

Play it both ways if you've got the time and the inclination.

Honey, I always play it both ways...

Whoa, was that TMI? It was, wasn't it?

You were asking about health care and smart shit. I'll answer in a sec.

379 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:53:08pm

re: #375 Killian Bundy

heh ,,see #343

380 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:53:19pm

re: #375 Killian Bundy

/let's find a solution for the 4% who actually need help instead of tearing down the whole private insurance scheme and nationalizing health care

In a nutshell. Bravo!

381 BignJames  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:53:30pm

re: #375 Killian Bundy

/let's find a solution for the 4% who actually need help instead of tearing down the whole private insurance scheme and nationalizing health care


What?!? Actually do something productive?!? Have you lost your mind?

382 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:54:29pm

re: #300 trendsurfer

...we pay twice as much for our system per capita than others and yet nearly 50 million aren't covered?

Uh - I'm not seeing the implied linkage here. Yes, Americans spend a great deal on health care. But a vast portion of that amount goes to tummy tucks, boob jobs, botox injections, tinted contact lenses, varicose vein stripping, liposuction, hair transplants, full-body MRIs for no medical purpose, dick pills, dick extensions, dick lubricants and a huge host of other unnecessary elective medical procedures. Trying to tie this to somehow to the number of uninsured is a non sequitur; there's no connection between the two statements unless you want to claim that all of the foregoing procedures, pharmaceuticals and aids are medically necessary and ought to be provided to all who ask.

I take serious issue with the figure cited, as well - it seems to be rising on a daily basis, in inverse correlation with support for the health care bill, ballooning to nearly double it's official tally just a couple of weeks ago - but the attempt to connect it to overall per capita medical spending is ludicrous.

383 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:54:32pm

re: #378 iceweasel

Honey, I always play it both ways...

Whoa, was that TMI? It was, wasn't it?

You were asking about health care and smart shit. I'll answer in a sec.

I'll keep quiet for now. Besides, Cato is probably coming up with something more clever than I possibly could.

384 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:54:48pm

re: #367 tradewind

That sounds good... what time should we expect him?

*bada-bum*

385 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:56:08pm

re: #382 SixDegrees

A and MEN

386 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:56:33pm

re: #357 iceweasel

Call me Danae...not. //

I'll leave before that part, thanks. :)

LOL. Call me Ishmael. I'm a moby dick.

Please check yer email, by the way.

387 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:56:58pm

re: #366 BignJames

Do you know what the avg. progfit margin for a health ins. co. is?

It's obviously large enough to keep several competing firms in business over a long period of time. Enough, too, that the companies involved wouldn't want to give such profits up without putting up a fight.

388 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:57:30pm

re: #386 Cato the Elder

LOL. Call me Ishmael. I'm a moby dick.

///couldn't resist

389 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:57:38pm

re: #385 sattv4u2

A and MEN

BIG DICK PILLS ARE RIPPING US OFF!

390 horse  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 5:59:04pm

re: #375 Killian Bundy

/let's find a solution for the 4% who actually need help instead of tearing down the whole private insurance scheme and nationalizing health care

I like his number inflation as well. Obama last said we had 46 million uninsured, but what's a few million here or there when you are talking about someone else's money?

391 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:00:27pm

re: #390 horse

I like his number inflation as well. Obama last said we had 46 million uninsured, but what's a few million here or there when you are talking about someone else's money?

10-20 million...
pretty soon your talking a real get together...

BO is off his rocker

392 BignJames  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:00:36pm

re: #387 SixDegrees

It's obviously large enough to keep several competing firms in business over a long period of time. Enough, too, that the companies involved wouldn't want to give such profits up without putting up a fight.


It's 3%...most businesses aim for a profit of 4%...and are considered successful if they achieve that. Let's face it...insurance is a lousy investment...'til you need it.

393 horse  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:00:38pm

re: #388 VegasRick

Don't fk with his words, he'll chase you with his umbrella.

394 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:02:20pm

re: #392 BignJames

It's 3%...most businesses aim for a profit of 4%...and are considered successful if they achieve that. Let's face it...insurance is a lousy investment...'til you need it.

not if there is no competition, and over decades...

395 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:02:23pm

re: #390 horse

I like his number inflation as well. Obama last said we had 46 million uninsured, but what's a few million here or there when you are talking about someone else's money?


They've taken all the disparate uninsured groups, rounde the individual numbers up, then added the higher numbers together

16 million people 18-35 that opt NOt to have insurance, lets make that an even 20 MILLION
8 million that qualify to be on state programs but haven't applied, make that an even 10 MILLION
14 million illegals? Lets make that an even 20 MILLION CHILDREN that were born here of illegals

NEW MATH!!! Ahhh

396 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:02:36pm

re: #375 Killian Bundy

/let's find a solution for the 4% who actually need help instead of tearing down the whole private insurance scheme and nationalizing health care

I must have missed the part where private insurance becomes illegal.

397 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:03:47pm

re: #396 Coracle

I must have missed the part where private insurance becomes illegal.

Not illegal, just phased out over time

The horse and buggy aren't illegal in Atlanta, but I wouldn't advise you on openeing a blacksmith shop here !

398 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:03:53pm

re: #396 Coracle

I must have missed the part where private insurance becomes illegal.

it's not there, that's why you missed it

399 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:04:42pm

re: #397 sattv4u2

Not illegal, just phased out over time

The horse and buggy aren't illegal in Atlanta, but I wouldn't advise you on openeing a blacksmith shop here !

That's because cars do the job better. That could be a good analogy.

400 SixDegrees  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:04:44pm

re: #392 BignJames

It's 3%...most businesses aim for a profit of 4%...and are considered successful if they achieve that. Let's face it...insurance is a lousy investment...'til you need it.

But it's 3% of an absolutely vast sum of money, a full one-sixth of the nation's GDP; call it a tenth, it still makes Croesus look like a pauper. And it's a business with virtually no overhead to speak of.

If there were really a plan by the government to dismantle these plans, I have to believe the insurance companies would be raising holy hell about it from every rooftop.

401 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:05:06pm

Anyone got the figures on how much European countries, UK, and Canada spend for care in the US, India, Central Europe? They take foreign holidays to actually get treatment but pretty sure it doesn't show up in the figures.

On levels of spending; Canada for its 30 million has less advanced imaging equip for its 6 million. You get what you pay for.

402 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:05:15pm

re: #393 horse

Don't fk with his words, he'll chase you with his umbrella.

He usually does not answer me, which I am happy about.

403 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:05:17pm

re: #396 Coracle

I must have missed the part where private insurance becomes illegal.

Don't be silly - it won't be illegal. Private insurance will be fatally wounded by a government monopoly. The eventual death of private insurance will pave the way for a true single payer government run system. It's not hard to figure it out, especially when democrats have been promising it for years.

404 tradewind  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:06:22pm

re: #396 Coracle
It doesn't have to become illegal in fact... it will become untenable. Private insurance companies will be forced out as unable to compete with a plan run by the government as people switch employers and either are not able to opt into a new private plan, or employers find their private plans so much more expensive that they just opt into the government's.

405 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:06:31pm

re: #399 Coracle

That's because cars do the job better. That could be a good analogy.

Not if you were in the blacksmith indusrty (private insurer)

And oh, btw, I thought that CARS were the ecological PROBLEM for the libs. We sure didnt have all this Global Warming when we all rode horses

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it

Law of unintended consequences

406 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:06:50pm

re: #402 VegasRick

He usually does not answer me, which I am happy about.

really?...he beat the snot out of me a few times...criticize his toe nail polish and see what shakes out

407 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:08:03pm

re: #406 albusteve

really?...he beat the snot out of me a few times...criticize his toe nail polish and see what shakes out

You are funny!

408 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:08:35pm

I posted this on the other thread but there are 'new' folks here so here it is again:

Look Who's Talking

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

409 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:08:47pm

re: #396 Coracle

I must have missed the part where private insurance becomes illegal.

/you probably missed the part where Democrats are using the "public option" as a stalking horse for the eventual implementation of a government single payer system too

410 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:09:01pm

re: #403 FrogMarch

Don't be silly - it won't be illegal. Private insurance will be fatally wounded by a government monopoly. The eventual death of private insurance will pave the way for a true single payer government run system. It's not hard to figure it out, especially when democrats have been promising it for years.

It's Locker's wet dream!

/bleecchhh

411 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:09:06pm

re: #399 Coracle

BTW ,,, do you buy into the "50 million uninsured" figure?

412 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:09:41pm
Can you rank order these strategies from best to worst if these were the only choices and comment as you see fit?

1 - Send clear signals soon (by end of August) to Congress that you will define what is "acceptable victory" for those writing the legislation.

Reality: No. Obama never, ever does this. On anything. Got elected by always doing this. Still does it. Kicks all decision making to others and that way he can play both ends against the middle.

2 - No changes to plan. Let the legislators write. Obama continues to sell and sooner or later the two roads will meet.

Reality: No. He did give them--some-- direction when they sat down. BTW, neither side wants reform. I know this is a shock but it's true. Dems and Repubs are beholden to insurance companies and pharm companies-- and their campaign contributions.


3 - Call a timeout. Re-group and come up with a new approach that gives Obama plausible room to say "We heard you and we are adapting".

No way. Health care has been in committees for 16 years. They've been talking reform for 40!
Also, remember-- none of this is about health care for the Repubs (and many Dems) It is about 2010.

Obama has to push something through this year. Has to.

4 - Do an LBJ and lean as hard as you possibly can on the Blue Dogs to submit and vote for the bill with a public option.

That's exactly what IS already happening-- problem is, Obama is no LBJ, and the Dems are wusses. The Blue Dogs just want to be re-elected. The other Dems...also want to be re-elected.

Also, the entire Democratic Party is used to being the Republican Party's bitch.
They like it that way. They're used to it. They're the s in a D/s relationship. I'm putting this in snarky terms because it's a weekend night but I am deadly serious.

5 - Do an LBJ and lean as hard as you possibly can on the progs to submit and vote for the bill w/o a public option.

This is what will likely happen, no leaning required. They'll kill off the public option, and I and my progressive brethern (?) will freak the fuck out.

413 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:10:50pm

re: #408 Jimmah

I posted this on the other thread but there are 'new' folks here so here it is again:

Look Who's Talking

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

The vilification of the big bad insurance company. I wonder what industry the democrats will vilify next?

414 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:10:57pm

re: #403 FrogMarch

Don't be silly - it won't be illegal. Private insurance will be fatally wounded by a government monopoly. The eventual death of private insurance will pave the way for a true single payer government run system. It's not hard to figure it out, especially when democrats have been promising it for years.

That's an interesting alarmism. Are we saying that no insurance corp is nimble enough or can come up with a truly competitive service against government?

415 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:11:11pm

re: #403 FrogMarch

Don't be silly - it won't be illegal. Private insurance will be fatally wounded by a government monopoly. The eventual death of private insurance will pave the way for a true single payer government run system. It's not hard to figure it out, especially when democrats have been promising it for years.

individual plans are banned from enrolling new members, change in anything but premiums will be illegal. in the bill. but it isn't making it illegal outright I guess. HR3200 works more like saying you can keep your car, banning the manufacture of parts for it, and saying if any non-factory parts are added or removed or altered, the government takes it and puts you in a Yugo. oh yeah, the government gets to charge themselves one rate for fuel and you another.

416 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:12:23pm

re: #412 iceweasel

a fair assesment...I have no quarrel with ant of that

417 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:12:58pm

re: #414 Coracle

That's an interesting alarmism. Are we saying that no insurance corp is nimble enough or can come up with a truly competitive service against government?

Not when the gov't can basically write off it's own overhead by simply taxing a little more here and there. How does a private insurance comapny compete against an entity that basically has no overhead?

I would LOVE to be in any competitive business where my competition has overhead and I have non!

418 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:13:51pm

re: #414 Coracle

That's an interesting alarmism. Are we saying that no insurance corp is nimble enough or can come up with a truly competitive service against government?

no...not with unlimited tax dollars and deficit spending to kill it

419 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:14:00pm

re: #405 sattv4u2

Not if you were in the blacksmith indusrty (private insurer)

If there's no demand, it's time to find another line of work.


And oh, btw, I thought that CARS were the ecological PROBLEM for the libs. We sure didnt have all this Global Warming when we all rode horses

Different issue.

420 kansas  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:15:22pm

re: #176 SixDegrees

Quite true. The whole "end of life counseling," or whatever it was called, was an attempt to keep horrendous tragedies like the Schiavo case from happening. Every adult, from 18 onward, ought to be given an overview of what's required to ensure that things work out the way you want them to should you die, or find yourself incapacitated and unable to direct your own care. There are millions of people who have no will, no written power of attorney, no medical power of attorney, no record of what their wishes are, and on and on, and providing an overview and a reminder to take personal responsibility for putting your affairs in order, and to review your arrangements every few years, isn't a bad idea at all. In fact, it's a good one.

Unfortunately, the bill was poorly written, and placed too much responsibility for provision of such counseling in government hands and not enough in the hands of citizens; and the response to the overblown, hysterical criticisms was just as poorly organized, as was the section's withdrawal. A simple recommendation to hand out up to date brochures containing an overview of the issues, and urging patients to contact an attorney to help with organizing theses matters, is all that is needed.

So in the years to come, we can look forward to thousands upon thousands of people suffering through years of a life they would prefer to end if they had the ability to do so; of spouses unable to carry out their partner's requests; of family wealth destroyed by endless legal challenges by parties with little or no direct interest in the person involved, but intent on promoting their own political and religious agenda through others helpless to respond. And along the way, we'll see a few more hapless individuals turned into national fodder for Congressional zealots and vilified from the bully pulpit simply because of their inaction and inattention to simple but important matters that everyone ought to know about, and far to many are ignorant of.

What?Assisted suicide and euthanasia were not in the bill anyway. So thousands upon thousands weren't going to be able call Dr. Kevorkian anyway. As I understand the bill simply required reimbursement for the doctor's time to counsel end of life issues. Plus, don't worry, anything the Dems want in the bill will get slipped back in somewhere in some form in probably an unrelated bill.

421 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:15:26pm

re: #409 Killian Bundy

Show me the bills that will do it.

422 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:15:27pm

re: #419 Coracle

but there IS demand for insurance, hence all the differnt companioes offering it! What 3200 does is say that over time, "WE" (the gov't) will be the only place to get horeshoes

423 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:15:53pm

re: #414 Coracle

That's an interesting alarmism. Are we saying that no insurance corp is nimble enough or can come up with a truly competitive service against government?

When private industry goes up against a federal government with seemingly limitless pockets and the ability to legislate your industry into submission and death, private industry (in this case, the insurance companies) WILL lose, unless the federal government can be reined in by the voters.

424 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:15:59pm

re: #412 iceweasel

This is what will likely happen, no leaning required. They'll kill off the public option, and I and my progressive brethern (?) will freak the fuck out.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I'm thinking it's 4 or 5. Perhaps the non-profit co-ops will be his peace pipe to be able to say there is a public option to the progs and that there is no public option to the Blue Dogs.

425 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:16:00pm

re: #415 spidly

individual plans are banned from enrolling new members, change in anything but premiums will be illegal. in the bill. but it isn't making it illegal outright I guess. HR3200 works more like saying you can keep your car, banning the manufacture of parts for it, and saying if any non-factory parts are added or removed or altered, the government takes it and puts you in a Yugo. oh yeah, the government gets to charge themselves one rate for fuel and you another.

No, 3wood's analysis said private insurance could exist, but it would have to conform to the new rules.

426 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:16:14pm

re: #421 Coracle

Show me the bills that will do it.

Did you watch the videos?

/they speak for themselves

427 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:16:43pm

I like that German plan. Everyone goes to the same state facilities, but if you want to get seen, well you buy cuts in line with private insurance. Hmmm...
Yeah, maybe not.

428 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:16:52pm

re: #411 sattv4u2

BTW ,,, do you buy into the "50 million uninsured" figure?

Not necessarily. That doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist.

429 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:17:01pm

Look..what I am saying about her single comment isn't my vision for the GOP future politics...I liked that Bush wasn't the liar he was called..I hated the lies of Bill Clinton and John Kerry...

I am no fan of any of our side lying for cheap effect no matter who they are. Last week I thought her comment silly..but since it had an electric effect on this bogus bill, I am willing to not hold that remark against Sarah Palin.

and I won't.

If there was nothing to it..maybe they, like many here, could simply condemn it out of hand and dismiss it..as they do pretty much with everything else Palin says. If she repeated it now, I would call foul.

This isn't the case...and it isn't the first time Palin has changed the debate and electrified it.


I see her comment as dirty politics, going negative, pouncing on a perception, or using a sideways opportunity. I didn't like it and I hope she doesn't do it any more...but there are other things in this I see as the bigger battle...and I am hoping she is going to be as honest and fair as she has been in the past. We shall see.

There are no GOP leaders any more. Could it be because we cannot allow them to play the same hardball as we are receiving??

430 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:17:27pm

re: #417 sattv4u2

Not when the gov't can basically write off it's own overhead by simply taxing a little more here and there. How does a private insurance comapny compete against an entity that basically has no overhead?

I would LOVE to be in any competitive business where my competition has overhead and I have non!

A government that does that won't stay in power.

431 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:18:35pm

re: #389 albusteve

BIG DICK PILLS ARE RIPPING US OFF!

I'm almost certain Bob Dole buys his in Canada.

432 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:18:37pm

re: #386 Cato the Elder

LOL. Call me Ishmael. I'm a moby dick.

Please check yer email, by the way.

Done. more soon. :)

433 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:18:38pm

re: #414 Coracle

That's an interesting alarmism. Are we saying that no insurance corp is nimble enough or can come up with a truly competitive service against government?

It's not interesting. Many far left-progressives have been promising it for years. In any case - here is another lesson is Economics 101 - which has been beat to death around here, but I will say it again.

The government does not have to compete because it does not have to make a profit. When the government needs more money to prop up a program, taxes are raised to cover the unfunded mandates. Meaning - we all pay for it anyway. That isn't competition. All the government has to do it raise taxes or print more money - which is a house of cards. What we need is more competition outside of the government.

Consumers will pay the price if government partners with the health care industry

434 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:19:45pm

re: #428 Coracle

Not necessarily. That doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist.

There is a problem, but not a 50 million one!

The system works for over 300 million people. Tinker with it, hell yeah. Tweak it, you bet. Find and destroy waste and fraud, nowyertalkin

Overhaul the whole think ,, ummm,,, no

435 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:19:59pm

re: #429 quiet man

See? I told you you weren't done.

Hang on. Shock to the balls comin' up.

Oh, and Bush? Liar.

436 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:21:28pm

All this guff about the "endless pockets of government" assumes that it can shove tax increases and blow up the deficit across the population with the intent of killing an industry (private insurance) and survive the next election cycle. That's truly impressive.

437 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:21:29pm

re: #430 Coracle

A government that does that won't stay in power.

Once it's enacted, no "revolt" will be able to reverse it

Give enough people FREE SHIT, they become very complacent. We've already been seeing the apathy over the generations.

438 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:22:05pm

re: #416 albusteve

a fair assesment...I have no quarrel with ant of that

Cheers-- updinged you. Hey, maybe we get along when one of us is drunk! (both?)

439 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:22:53pm

re: #436 Coracle

All this guff about the "endless pockets of governmentpeople" assumes that it can shove tax increases and blow up the deficit across the population with the intent of killing an industry (private insurance) and survive the next election cycle. That's truly impressive.

That's where ACORN comes in - and gerrymandering.

440 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:23:46pm

re: #436 Coracle

All this guff about the "endless pockets of government" assumes that it can shove tax increases and blow up the deficit across the population with the intent of killing an industry (private insurance) and survive the next election cycle. That's truly impressive.

heh ,,, rightr now, less tha n 2% of the population has over 50% of the tax burden, while the bottom 50% has less than 20% of the tax burden. The Dems have been playing the class warfarer card to a T for generations. They already have over 50% of the citizens beholden to the gov't in one form or another. All they need to do is motivate that 50+% to go vote each time

441 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:23:53pm

re: #439 FrogMarch

That's where ACORN comes in - and gerrymandering.

Oh my! That was good for a laugh.

442 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:24:42pm

re: #428 Coracle

Not necessarily. That doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist.

Put a % of Americans that need this.

443 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:25:11pm

K Kiddies

I's tired

I's gotta get up at Zero Dark Thirty for a 12 hour shift tomorrow

I's OUTTIE!

444 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:25:33pm

re: #440 sattv4u2

Then I guess the private insurance companies had better figure out a way to provide good care competitively. There's a lot of money to be made.

445 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:25:45pm

re: #442 VegasRick

Put a % of Americans that need this.

Thats why I asked if Coracle bought the 50 million #

446 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:26:12pm

re: #429 quiet man

I see her comment as dirty politics, going negative, pouncing on a perception, or using a sideways opportunity.

Whenever social security reform is mentioned, some politician is sure to drag out the old cliche about how old people will have to eat dog food. With the health care issue, the scare factor gets multiplied.

447 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:26:54pm

re: #443 sattv4u2

K Kiddies

I's tired

I's gotta get up at Zero Dark Thirty for a 12 hour shift tomorrow

I's OUTTIE!

See ya satt!

448 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:27:04pm

re: #442 VegasRick

Put a % of Americans that need this.

What % of Americans that need it and can't get it are you willing to tolerate?

449 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:27:09pm

re: #444 Coracle

Then I guess the private insurance companies had better figure out a way to provide good care competitively. There's a lot of money to be made.

They already do.

Am I not getting the newspapers that you get that show thousands of people dying in hospital parking lots being denied care?

450 kansas  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:27:18pm

re: #245 albusteve

speak UP!...what's Niagra got to do with it?

IF YOU ARE TAKING IT AND GET AN ERECTION FOR MORE THAN 4 HOURS OR SUDDENLY GO BLIND OR DEAF, CALL YOUR DOCTOR. Oh you said Niagra...sorry.

451 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:28:05pm

re: #424 Pianobuff

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I'm thinking it's 4 or 5. Perhaps the non-profit co-ops will be his peace pipe to be able to say there is a public option to the progs and that there is no public option to the Blue Dogs.

Yeah, but if there is no public option---massive unrest on the left. Not that it matters, lol---lot of unrest there for the last ten years and it almost never matters. :)

Seriously, for progressives, we hate the Democratic Party only slightly less than we do the republican party. This debacle is one example of why.

452 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:28:49pm

re: #449 sattv4u2

Am I not getting the newspapers that you get that show thousands of people dying in hospital parking lots being denied care?

By "hospital parking lots" do you mean emergency waiting rooms?

453 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:28:55pm

re: #436 Coracle

All this guff about the "endless pockets of government" assumes that it can shove tax increases and blow up the deficit across the population with the intent of killing an industry (private insurance) and survive the next election cycle. That's truly impressive.

yes it is, and the fact that it is happening is a reflection on the voters eh?

454 Cato  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:29:01pm

Calling them death panels is not only fair, it is correct as a matter of result. Colby Cosh has done us a service finding similar provisions in the Canadian law. Moreover, ANY system that purports to hold down costs must by necessity have some similar mechanism. Charles your objection should not be that Sarah Palin called it the wrong name, but rather that she didn't point out that competing systems would have it also.

455 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:29:38pm

re: #448 Coracle

What % of Americans that need it and can't get it are you willing to tolerate?

Not the point. You don't scrap an entire system for 5% of the population. You fix the problem for the 5%.

456 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:30:02pm

re: #449 sattv4u2

They already do.

Am I not getting the newspapers that you get that show thousands of people dying in hospital parking lots being denied care?

Probably not. Events like this shouldn't have to happen in this country.

457 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:31:02pm

re: #451 iceweasel

Yeah, but if there is no public option---massive unrest on the left. Not that it matters, lol---lot of unrest there for the last ten years and it almost never matters. :)

Seriously, for progressives, we hate the Democratic Party only slightly less than we do the republican party. This debacle is one example of why.

Do progs view the co-ops as phony baloney private organizations in rhetorical disguise?

458 albusteve  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:31:05pm

re: #456 Coracle

Probably not. Events like this shouldn't have to happen in this country.

reminds me of the Cash for Clunkers deal

459 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:31:43pm

re: #425 Kosh's Shadow

No, 3wood's analysis said private insurance could exist, but it would have to conform to the new rules.


yep, but are barred from taking on new members and a bunch of other great stuff that knocks you off onto the public plan in short order. I was mistaken before, there are restrictions on raising rates

460 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:31:52pm

section 102: "PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE...but not"

(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT-
(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.
(B) DEPENDENT COVERAGE PERMITTED- Subparagraph (A) shall not affect the subsequent enrollment of a dependent of an individual who is covered as of such first day.
(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.
(3) RESTRICTIONS ON PREMIUM INCREASES- The issuer cannot vary the percentage increase in the premium for a risk group of enrollees in specific grandfathered health insurance coverage without changing the premium for all enrollees in the same risk group at the same rate, as specified by the Commissioner.
(b) Grace Period for Current Employment-based Health Plans-
(1) GRACE PERIOD-
(A) IN GENERAL- The Commissioner shall establish a grace period whereby, for plan years beginning after the end of the 5-year period beginning with Y1, an employment-based health plan in operation as of the day before the first day of Y1 must meet the same requirements as apply to a qualified health benefits plan under section 101, including the essential benefit package requirement under section 121.
(B) EXCEPTION FOR LIMITED BENEFITS PLANS- Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to an employment-based health plan in which the coverage consists only of one or more of the following:
(i) Any coverage described in section 3001(a)(1)(B)(ii)(IV) of division B of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-5).
(ii) Excepted benefits (as defined in section 733(c) of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974), including coverage under a specified disease or illness policy described in paragraph (3)(A) of such section.
(iii) Such other limited benefits as the Commissioner may specify.
In no case shall an employment-based health plan in which the coverage consists only of one or more of the coverage or benefits described in clauses (i) through (iii) be treated as acceptable coverage under this division
(2) TRANSITIONAL TREATMENT AS ACCEPTABLE COVERAGE- During the grace period specified in paragraph (1)(A), an employment-based health plan that is described in such paragraph shall be treated as acceptable coverage under this division.
(c) Limitation on Individual Health Insurance Coverage-
(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.
(2) SEPARATE, EXCEPTED COVERAGE PERMITTED- Excepted benefits (as defined in section 2791(c) of the Public Health Service Act) are not included within the definition of health insurance coverage. Nothing in paragraph (1) shall prevent the offering, other than through the Health Insurance Exchange, of excepted benefits so long as it is offered and priced separately from health insurance coverage
461 CommonCents  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:32:11pm

re: #452 Mich-again

By "hospital parking lots" do you mean emergency waiting rooms?

Even if he was, is it really thousands?

462 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:32:29pm

re: #331 trendsurfer

I don't think their plans are all that secret...smaller business will not be able to absorb the costs, business owners will face the harshest contributions..there are no courts to argue in save Tax court.
People will be automatically pushed to the public option..
and there it is.

And Obama would have happily signed the bill no matter who went down in flames

463 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:32:30pm

re: #455 VegasRick

Not the point. You don't scrap an entire system for 5% of the population. You fix the problem for the 5%.

I've been waiting years for bills from either side to do that.

464 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:33:16pm

re: #452 Mich-again

By "hospital parking lots" do you mean emergency waiting rooms?

no, I mean actual parking lots. The canard is that people are being denied care! If said people are being denied care, one would think they wouldn't be able to stay inside the facility for long, so they must be going back outside

This entire "50 million without insurance" is THE biggest scare tactic I have seen in all my years. Please see my #343

Once we get the REAL TRUE number of the uninsured, be they marginally poor (make too much to qualify for gov't help but not enough to afford private) and anyonje who has slipped through the cracks, THEN we can have a rational discussion of what "REFORMS" are needed

465 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:33:54pm

re: #432 iceweasel

Done. more soon. :)

Good. Soros is getting impatient.

466 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:34:31pm

re: #435 Cato the Elder
Keep you shock away from my awww, please.

467 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:34:49pm

re: #463 Coracle

I've been waiting years for bills from either side to do that.

We agree. That is what is needed.

468 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:35:12pm

re: #456 Coracle

Probably not. Events like this shouldn't have to happen in this country.

Geee ,,, looks to me like EVERY SINGLE PERSON there is being treated

So as I said in # 464, tell us what the REAL number of "uninsured" is,, THEN we can come up with a solution

469 tradewind  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:35:15pm

re: #431 Cato the Elder

I'm almost certain they're gratis, since a) he was their first commercial spokesman, and b) he has that sweet Senate health plan in retirement.

.

470 Capitalistincharge  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:35:19pm

I have taken this whole death panel thing differently than most of you, apparently. Everything I have read by Palin and others seemed to be speaking of rationed care, which, when thought through could result in a number of scenarios. I guess examining legislation through unintended consequences, something Congress and the Administration either haven't thought through or have and aren't concerned, is something everyone should do.

471 CommonCents  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:35:30pm

re: #460 spidly

I love the references to "Any coverage described in section 3001(a)(1)(B)(ii)(IV) of division B of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-5)."

Healthcare in the porkulus to ensure the unemployment rate doesn't go over 8.5%.

472 spidly  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:36:00pm

re: #456 Coracle

Probably not. Events like this shouldn't have to happen in this country.

like this?

that's just the frikken dentist

473 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:36:23pm

re: #467 VegasRick

We agree. That is what is needed.

It's telling that in the months leading up to this, not a single bill like it came from the Republicans as a counterproposal. If the same energy being spent tearing at the current bills were spent promoting something efficient and responsible, they could truly have scored.

474 Pianobuff  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:37:27pm

BBL

475 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:38:21pm

re: #468 sattv4u2

Geee ,,, looks to me like EVERY SINGLE PERSON there is being treated

So as I said in # 464, tell us what the REAL number of "uninsured" is,, THEN we can come up with a solution

Nice. They get their shot at healthcare once a year, maybe. That's something for us to be proud of.

476 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:40:38pm

re: #457 Pianobuff

Do progs view the co-ops as phony baloney private organizations in rhetorical disguise?

I'd have to go out and see what the deal is, but most progs wanted single payer, which has always been off the table, and settled for a public option--even though it's always been unlikely we'd get it. It was at like 40% odds in June before all this shit hit the fan.

I knew the Rethuglican onslaught would be bad, but I really did not realise it would be this bad. I knew the viral emails were going out-- I mentioned here that I wound up reading the freaking proposals because of an early version of one of the viral emails.

It's been unbelivable though. And the Dem collapse in the face of it has also been unbelievable. End of life counselling!-- GONE--- all because Bible Spice decided to post an incoherent rambling screed on her facebook. Seriously, we're going to get MINIMAL reform. Like nothing.

477 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:40:45pm

re: #454 Cato

Calling them death panels is not only fair, it is correct as a matter of result. Colby Cosh has done us a service finding similar provisions in the Canadian law. Moreover, ANY system that purports to hold down costs must by necessity have some similar mechanism. Charles your objection should not be that Sarah Palin called it the wrong name, but rather that she didn't point out that competing systems would have it also.

Calling voluntary end-of-life consultation sessions "death panels" is not only not fair, it is a conscious, stinking lie. Ooh, shades of Hitler! Euthanasiast! Malthusian! Eeeevil.

But then "teh deth panil truck kom keel yo ole grammie" sounds so much scarier. Obviously, it works.

478 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:40:56pm

re: #475 Coracle

Nice. They get their shot at healthcare once a year, maybe. That's something for us to be proud of.


You're kidding, right? You think that's the ONLY care any of them get?

479 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:40:57pm

re: #473 Coracle

It's telling that in the months leading up to this, not a single bill like it came from the Republicans as a counterproposal. If the same energy being spent tearing at the current bills were spent promoting something efficient and responsible, they could truly have scored.

Again we agree. I think the Repubs had a few good ideas but not a lot and they did very little to get their message out. They are counting on the folks to kill this bastard and I for one am proud of the folks standing up to this.

480 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:41:51pm

re: #476 iceweasel

Pr-pro-proposals? But I thought your heart was mine!

481 kansas  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:42:13pm

re: #473 Coracle

It's telling that in the months leading up to this, not a single bill like it came from the Republicans as a counterproposal. If the same energy being spent tearing at the current bills were spent promoting something efficient and responsible, they could truly have scored.

[Link: www.google.com...]

482 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:42:51pm

re: #477 Cato the Elder

Hooray for ethics!

483 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:43:02pm

re: #476 iceweasel

The left folded like an engish butler anyway, right??

Maybe there was far more to it.

Recall we have seen none of the 5 senate bills

484 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:43:09pm

re: #478 sattv4u2

You're kidding, right? You think that's the ONLY care any of them get?

They did one of those in Appalachia a week or so ago. It is the only care many of them get.

485 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:43:54pm

re: #473 Coracle

It's telling that in the months leading up to this, not a single bill like it came from the Republicans as a counterproposal. If the same energy being spent tearing at the current bills were spent promoting something efficient and responsible, they could truly have scored.

Incorrect

Senator Tom CVoburn and Congressman Paul Ryan has a proposal

486 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:44:19pm

re: #479 VegasRick

Again we agree. I think the Repubs had a few good ideas but not a lot and they did very little to get their message out. They are counting on the folks to kill this bastard and I for one am proud of the folks standing up to this.

They had and have no counterproposal. Killing the current bill plays politics, but doesn't help the people. They forgot that part.

487 BignJames  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:44:49pm

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. Alexander Tytler

It's gonna happen

488 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:45:42pm

re: #482 Sharmuta

Hooray for ethics!

Yep.

I do wish Cato would get his own stinkin' nick. I was here first.

489 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:45:42pm

re: #484 Coracle

They did one of those in Appalachia a week or so ago. It is the only care many of them get.

Okay ,,lets say it IS

How many are we talking about?
100,,, 500,,, 1,000?
Please show me where the other 49,999,000 are!

Again, please see my 343 and 464

490 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:46:05pm

re: #477 Cato the Elder

What is your basis for believing that when the rationing of healthcare comes down..especially in the specialist categories, what the government will use to decide what is cost effective and what is not??

491 tradewind  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:46:09pm

re: #473 Coracle

The health care grab as it unfolds is a hot mess, without real planning or forethought, only ideology at its core. There is no upside for the Republicans to wear this albatross around their necks... let it be a wholly-owned Democratic
mess.

492 KSK  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:46:09pm

First the nirth certifikit and then the death certifikit

493 kansas  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:46:11pm

re: #486 Coracle

They had and have no counterproposal. Killing the current bill plays politics, but doesn't help the people. They forgot that part.


Since you are wrong about that, you can stop repeating it. What, you think Pelosi is letting the Republicans bring anything to the floor?

494 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:46:47pm

re: #487 BignJames

It's been happnin' since, oh, Tammany Hall.

But thanks for playin'. And for the semi-shoutin'. Cowboy.

495 swamprat  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:46:52pm

re: #483 quiet man

The left folded like an engish butler anyway, right??
Maybe there was far more to it.
Recall we have seen none of the 5 senate bills


Man, don't say that. They got this thing all worked out, and you go tryin' to harsh their buzz.

Palin is a dumb bimbo, the worst politician I've ever heard of.

496 VegasRick  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:47:22pm

re: #486 Coracle

They had and have no counterproposal. Killing the current bill plays politics, but doesn't help the people. They forgot that part.

Now we disagree, they did have counter proposals you just need to look for them.

497 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:47:28pm

re: #492 KSK

That would be "def certifikit".

498 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:48:28pm

re: #495 swamprat
I do dislike harshing others buzzes...and I am not one to wheeze the ju-ooce

499 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:48:33pm

re: #490 quiet man

Sorree...questio non parsee...

500 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:49:29pm

re: #496 VegasRick

Now we disagree, they did have counter proposals you just need to look for them.

Senator Tom Coburn and Rep Paul Ryan

501 horse  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:49:53pm

re: #473 Coracle

It's telling that in the months leading up to this, not a single bill like it came from the Republicans as a counterproposal. If the same energy being spent tearing at the current bills were spent promoting something efficient and responsible, they could truly have scored.

You mean like this a couple of months ago? "House GOP Outlines Health Care Bill at CNN Money" Or this three months ago? "GOP Health Care Plan Aims for Universal Care in the Private Market" It's not their fault Nancy and team didn't want to listen or negotiate with them.

Seriously, at least do a google search before you comment. You think you're Obama or something? Just make stuff up off the top of your head? A lot of the GOP in office are a bunch of fk ups, but you don't have to make stuff about them.

502 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:50:33pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

Sarah Palin favors "death panels"!1!!1!

hat tip: iceweasel

Sharmuta, I had also posted that proclamation that then Gov. Sarah Palin signed on April 16, 2008. Of course they're all trying to rationalize the differences after it was pointed out.

That was posted here.

And the group she signed this proclamation is the Foundation for the End of Life Care: Providing help at the end of life.

503 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:50:38pm

re: #499 Cato the Elder
Tell me why you think the term "death panel" has no, and could never have any basis for discussion given the uncertanity of what the bill actually says..or will say??

504 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:50:56pm

re: #501 horse

You mean like this a couple of months ago? "House GOP Outlines Health Care Bill at CNN Money" Or this three months ago? "GOP Health Care Plan Aims for Universal Care in the Private Market" It's not their fault Nancy and team didn't want to listen or negotiate with them.

Seriously, at least do a google search before you comment. You think you're Obama or something? Just make stuff up off the top of your head? A lot of the GOP in office are a bunch of fk ups, but you don't have to make stuff about them.

Slogans do not = plan.

505 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:51:01pm

re: #489 sattv4u2

Okay ,,lets say it IS

How many are we talking about?
100,,, 500,,, 1,000?
Please show me where the other 49,999,000 are!

Again, please see my 343 and 464

A system that necessitates RAMC is broken. I'm open to other fixes.

506 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:52:37pm

re: #505 Coracle

A system that necessitates RAMC is broken. I'm open to other fixes.

"RAMC"??

Regardless, take my two posts refereneced (343 and 464
)and give me a real number to work with

507 kansas  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:52:55pm

More than a slogan.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

508 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:53:03pm

re: #502 Gus 802
as they should..

that is a charity organization that helps..not a government panel deciding who gets what rationed care when.

509 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:54:07pm

re: #485 sattv4u2

Incorrect

Senator Tom CVoburn and Congressman Paul Ryan has a proposal

I've seen it. I don't think it would solve anything. But if they did, they should have been stumping for it. But it is easier to tear down than build up.

510 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:54:22pm

re: #508 quiet man

as they should..

that is a charity organization that helps..not a government panel deciding who gets what rationed care when.

There is and was no government panel deciding who gets "what rationed care [and] when."

511 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:54:48pm

re: #480 Cato the Elder

Pr-pro-proposals? But I thought your heart was mine!

My heart may be yours; that says nothing about the rest of me. ;)

512 tradewind  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:54:51pm

re: #494 Cato the Elder
Being from the South, I just have to say... watching you drop your ' g's, even in an online forum, just feels wrong, on so many levels.
In the name of John Kerry searching for a place to get him a huntin ' license , you have to stop!
//

513 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:55:03pm

re: #464 sattv4u2

Agreed. One reason for the health care mess is that the costs for providing services for the uninsured are extracted from the one's who have health insurance through elevated fees they have to pay. Its a shell and pea game.

514 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:55:11pm

re: #509 Coracle

I've seen it. I don't think it would solve anything. But if they did, they should have been stumping for it. But it is easier to tear down than build up.

How could you have "seen" it. Upthread you stated the Repubs presented NO plan

So which is it?

515 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:56:17pm

re: #503 quiet man

Because...the program called into question by Palin-around-with-fascists was about voluntary end-of-life consultation sessions that are currently paid for by our beloved free-market insurers.

If you have evidence for something else, show it to me. Don't come with "it happened under Hitler and my baby has Down Syndrome and Glenn Beck's has MS so you should be terrified because they're comin' for your aged parents" crapola. Because you know what? My mamma didn' raise no fools.

516 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:56:27pm

re: #501 horse

Sorry. They were working so hard to promote their alternative it must have blinded me.re: #514 sattv4u2

How could you have "seen" it. Upthread you stated the Repubs presented NO plan

So which is it?

Both. I've seen it, and it is no plan. Don't worry. I already know you disagree.

517 lobo91  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:56:35pm

re: #505 Coracle

A system that necessitates RAMC is broken. I'm open to other fixes.

We don't have a healthcare "system" in the US, unlike Canada and the UK.

We have a healthcare industry, and most of its problems were caused by the same people who are now rushing in to "fix" them.

518 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:57:27pm

re: #413 FrogMarch

The vilification of the big bad insurance company. I wonder what industry the democrats will vilify next?

The link from that article has some interesting information on insurance companies switch in tactics and their connection to the recent town hall mobs.re: #476 iceweasel

I'd have to go out and see what the deal is, but most progs wanted single payer, which has always been off the table, and settled for a public option--even though it's always been unlikely we'd get it. It was at like 40% odds in June before all this shit hit the fan.

I knew the Rethuglican onslaught would be bad, but I really did not realise it would be this bad. I knew the viral emails were going out-- I mentioned here that I wound up reading the freaking proposals because of an early version of one of the viral emails.

It's been unbelivable though. And the Dem collapse in the face of it has also been unbelievable. End of life counselling!-- GONE--- all because Bible Spice decided to post an incoherent rambling screed on her facebook. Seriously, we're going to get MINIMAL reform. Like nothing.

It is very disappointing to see politics being done - or not done - in this way.

Still laughing at 'Bible Spice' though:)

519 aLohaTim  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:57:44pm

I was wondering Charles why one of the tags to this post included the word "resignation"? What has that do do with the post? Why not "euthanasia"?

520 horse  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:58:03pm

re: #504 Cato the Elder

Slogans do not = plan.

Good for them they had a bill and plan, though it didn't get far in the House.

521 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:58:04pm

re: #517 lobo91

We don't have a healthcare "system" in the US, unlike Canada and the UK.

We have a healthcare industry, and most of its problems were caused by the same people who are now rushing in to "fix" them.

That claim is new to me.

522 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:59:43pm

re: #510 Gus 802

read this about section 1233

[Link: www.examiner.com...]

523 lobo91  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:59:46pm

re: #521 Coracle

That claim is new to me.

Maybe that's part of your problem. You don't understand the issue in the first place.

524 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:59:49pm

re: #516 Coracle

Sorry. They were working so hard to promote their alternative it must have blinded me.re: #514 sattv4u2


Both. I've seen it, and it is no plan. Don't worry. I already know you disagree.

I could give a rats as whether we disagree or not. I'm now more concerned about you being disengenouos stating that there was nothing from the Repubs yet all along KNOWING that the Ryan bill was out there

You may not like chocolate ice cream. But if you know it exists and claim THERE IS NO CHOCOLATE ICE CREAM, what am I to think of my debate opponent?

525 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:01:46pm

re: #515 Cato the Elder

Dont go off the deep end there..I have no intention of any of that.

p. 430, l. 13-24 The Order has the power to limit medical interventions, limit the use of antibiotics, limit nutrition and limit hydration. The Order can address whether an individual goes to the hospital or remains at a hospice or other nursing home.

So where does the language in the Order come from?

p. 428, l. 5-13 The Order is guided by a coalition of stakeholders including state hospice associations, home health association, etc.

look at the link I gave Gus

526 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:02:24pm

Read it:

WHEREAS, Healthcare Decisions Day is designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves and to encourage the specific use of advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions. WHEREAS, in Alaska, Alaska Statute 13.52 provides the specifics of the advance directives law and offers a model form for patient use.

SNIP

NOW, THEREFORE, I, Sarah Palin, Governor of the state of Alaska, do hereby proclaim April 16, 2008, as:

Healthcare Decisions Day in Alaska, and I call this observance to the attention of all our citizens.

Chapter 52. Health Care Decisions Act - Alaska

Section 50:

AS 13.52.045. Withholding or Withdrawing of Life-Sustaining Procedures.

Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, an agent or a surrogate may determine that life-sustaining procedures may be withheld or withdrawn from a patient with a qualifying condition when there is

(1) a durable power of attorney for health care or other writing that clearly expresses the patient's intent that the procedures be withheld or withdrawn; or

(2) no durable power of attorney for health care or other writing that clearly expresses the patient's intent to the contrary, the patient has a qualifying condition as determined under AS 13.52.160 , and withholding or withdrawing the procedures would be consistent with the patient's best interest.

527 lobo91  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:02:28pm

re: #524 sattv4u2

I could give a rats as whether we disagree or not. I'm now more concerned about you being disengenouos stating that there was nothing from the Repubs yet all along KNOWING that the Ryan bill was out there

You may not like chocolate ice cream. But if you know it exists and claim THERE IS NO CHOCOLATE ICE CREAM, what am I to think of my debate opponent?

I think you need a better debate opponent.

528 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:03:03pm

re: #517 lobo91

We don't have a healthcare "system" in the US, unlike Canada and the UK.

We have a healthcare industry, and most of its problems were caused by the same people who are now rushing in to "fix" them.

First sentence: indubitably true, whatever you mean by it.

Second: hmm.

Beecuz if guvmint wud onlee git oat of the whey, why, they'ums nevah trah tuh cell yoo a tartifishul hart thet don' wurk. Wud they'm?

529 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:04:31pm

re: #526 Gus 802

It isnt the same...Planning for end if life is fine..but the planners here have no voice in when and how you can be limited care.

now you go read my link and tell me how they are the same thing

530 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:04:52pm

re: #524 sattv4u2
You may not like chocolate ice cream. But if you know it exists and claim THERE IS NO CHOCOLATE ICE CREAM, what am I to think of my debate opponent?

I'm willing to admit I got hot enough under the collar that the bill didn't come to my mind when I made those earlier posts.

I looked at it when it came out, thought that it wasn't very good. And then it was pretty much dropped, even, from what I could see, by the Republicans themselves. Do even they still consider it a serious alternative? Because they're not talking like it is that I can see.

531 lobo91  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:05:01pm

re: #528 Cato the Elder

First sentence: indubitably true, whatever you mean by it.

Second: hmm.

Beecuz if guvmint wud onlee git oat of the whey, why, they'ums nevah trah tuh cell yoo a tartifishul hart thet don' wurk. Wud they'm?

I have no idea what you were trying to say with that gibberish, but if you translate it to English, I migh respond.

532 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:05:05pm

re: #528 Cato the Elder

First sentence: indubitably true, whatever you mean by it.

Second: hmm.

Beecuz if guvmint wud onlee git oat of the whey, why, they'ums nevah trah tuh cell yoo a tartifishul hart thet don' wurk. Wud they'm?

When did you start talking like Hillary on the primaries tour?

533 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:05:07pm

re: #511 iceweasel

My heart may be yours; that says nothing about the rest of me. ;)

Umm, mmkay. Kin ah hav teh sweetbreads too?

534 Capitalistincharge  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:05:35pm

re: #475 Coracle

Here's a 4 Page GoP proposal. Not as expensive and free market driven.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
Why don't you know about this and the additions to the GOP proposals over the last two weeks? You are as bad as you say those espousing misinformation are.

535 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:06:11pm

wow..all this heated discussion without downdings

I think some souls have grown!

536 Coracle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:07:32pm

re: #534 Capitalistincharge

Here's a 4 Page GoP proposal. Not as expensive and free market driven.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
Why don't you know about this and the additions to the GOP proposals over the last two weeks? You are as bad as you say those espousing misinformation are.

Thanks. I'll read it. But not right now. Someone who loves me is calling me.

Ciao

537 lobo91  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:07:55pm

re: #535 quiet man

wow..all this heated discussion without downdings

I think some souls have grown!

Some, maybe. Others appear to have adopted some sort of online blackface or something.

538 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:08:24pm

re: #530 Coracle

You may not like chocolate ice cream. But if you know it exists and claim THERE IS NO CHOCOLATE ICE CREAM, what am I to think of my debate opponent?

I'm willing to admit I got hot enough under the collar that the bill didn't come to my mind when I made those earlier posts.

I looked at it when it came out, thought that it wasn't very good. And then it was pretty much dropped, even, from what I could see, by the Republicans themselves. Do even they still consider it a serious alternative? Because they're not talking like it is that I can see.

I see. So because YOU thought it wasn't very good, it should be dismissed! Well I think the Obama/ Kennedy/ Conyers/ Whoever bill isn't very good.

Call Obama and tell him it's a no-go, K?

539 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:08:48pm

re: #537 lobo91
sho kin dance

540 quiet man  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:09:18pm

well..night everyone.

have fun

541 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:09:58pm

re: #535 quiet man

wow..all this heated discussion without downdings

I think some souls have grown!

Downdings are for wusses.

542 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:09:58pm

re: #522 quiet man

read this about section 1233

[Link: www.examiner.com...]

Whoever wrote that left out a great deal of information:

‘‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that—‘‘(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as de fined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;

‘‘(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;

Page 429
[Link: energycommerce.house.gov...]

A. It is essentially the same thing.
B. This is voluntary as noted in the final paragraph above.
C. I works within state laws.

543 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:13:19pm

re: #528 Cato the Elder

First sentence: indubitably true, whatever you mean by it.

Second: hmm.

Beecuz if guvmint wud onlee git oat of the whey, why, they'ums nevah trah tuh cell yoo a tartifishul hart thet don' wurk. Wud they'm?

Could be any more of a douche, Cato?

544 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:14:41pm

re: #531 lobo91

I have no idea what you were trying to say with that gibberish, but if you translate it to English, I migh respond.

Because if government would only get out of the way, why, they'd (the private sector would) never try to sell you an artificial heart that doesn't work. Would they?

Viz. inter al., Sinclair, L., and FDA, ff. ad inf.

QED guvmint ≠ (always) eeevul.

545 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:15:06pm

Well, that little exchange made it easy to decide whether to block the whining extremist and his racist pal.

546 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:16:59pm

re: #545 Charles

Well, that little exchange made it easy to decide whether to block the whining extremist and his racist pal.

Seriously, I couldn't believe what I just read. Thanks.

547 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:18:52pm

re: #518 Jimmah

It is very disappointing to see politics being done - or not done - in this way.

Still laughing at 'Bible Spice' though:)

:) Better than Caribou Barbie, or the Wasilla Snowbilly, IMO.

BTW:

548 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:20:13pm

I was, just so it's clear, doin' redneck, not minstrel.

549 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:20:53pm

re: #543 talon_262

Just for you.

550 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:21:05pm

re: #433 FrogMarch

Consumers will pay the price if government partners with the health care industry

Why would the industry agree to this preemptive surrender? Because it means the end of competition. Under the proposed agreement, the government would guarantee a certain level of profit for each health care producer. From the industry's point of view, the goal is to get a seat at the table as politicians and government technocrats "reform" health care—which means it will decide who the winners and losers will be.

There's a word for when the government directs the production of goods and services and divides the economic pie: corporatism. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics succinctly defines coporatism as "a system of interest intermediation linking producer interests and the state, in which explicitly recognized interest organizations are incorporated into the policy-making process, both in terms of the negotiation of policy and of securing compliance from their members with the agreed policy."

...

551 Capitalistincharge  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:21:23pm

I am fascinated with the absolute upside down, chaotic mess our Country has become since this Administration has come to power. This administrations leadership is inept and causing more divisiveness than I recall in the last 50 years. The trust of the American people in their Govt is on the decline- [Link: www.rasmussenreports.com...] -and the media and blogs try to keep the conversation focused on exagerated claims by the opposition. Ridculing people who want answers and demonizing them, misrepresenting them and minimizing concerns only pours gas on the fire. Yeah, I give this administration a fail.

552 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:22:17pm
If the coporativist bargain works out as they plan, both insurers and hospitals expect to profit from the government mandating health insurance coverage for all Americans. Insurers look forward to millions of new customers who will have to buy insurance either individually, through their employers, or through government vouchers. In addition, since the government will set rates and benefits, health insurers won't have to bother with the vexing problem of competition. Of course, state and federal mandates and regulations have already taken us a ways down this road, but corporativist "health care reform" should eliminate any lingering vestiges of consumer choice. For their part, hospitals will have plenty of newly-insured patients to fill their wards and will no longer need to offer uncompensated care to the health care indigent.

As for the pharmaceutical companies, they have experienced rapidly increasing price controls over the years. For example, the Obama administration's 2010 budget lowers what Medicare will pay for drugs from 15 percent below average price to 22 percent below average. In agreeing to the corporativist bargain, those companies hope to get a better deal and to prevent the adoption of cost-benefit tests for the approval of new drugs.

Along similar lines, Medicare and Medicaid price controls have been squeezing doctors' fees for decades. As the federal government either converts private insurance companies into minutely regulated public utilities, creates a rival government health care payment system, or simply adopts a national single-payer (government entitlement) system, doctors rightfully worry that their fees will drop even further as government bureaucrats attempt to slash costs. But with a seat at the health care negotiating table, doctors hope to make the best out of a very bad situation. Interestingly, health care labor unions will probably emerge as the biggest winners in this corporatist arrangement, because they'll be able to extract higher than market wages from politicians dependent on union votes.


...

553 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:24:00pm

,,,

In his remarks welcoming the "historic" concessions by the health care industry, President Barack Obama noted that health care "costs are out of control." The goal of corporatist health care reform is to cut those costs. It's a noble aim. The only problem is that the one surefire way to cut costs is completely off the bargaining table: competition. Producers certainly won't reduce costs unless competitors force them to do so. And why would they? Reducing costs means reducing incomes.

Indeed, costs in our current health care system rise faster than the rate of inflation precisely because there is so little competition. The third party payment system, where employers or government agencies pay for insurance, gives consumers few incentives to shop around and bid down prices. On top of that, the federal and state governments have piled so many mandates on insurers that consumers are offered little more than one-size-fits-all policies with similar rates.

It's no secret the current health care system is rife with inefficiencies. But without effective competition, there will be no effective way to discover them and root them out. Competition incentivizes consumers and competitors to eliminate inefficiencies.

The notion that wise government regulators can wring them out is beyond laughable.


...

554 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:25:05pm

..

Consider the recent announcement that a line-by-line review of the federal budget by the Obama administration found just $17 billion in savings from $3.6 trillion budget. That's far less than one half of 1 percent of the total budget. And the constituencies who benefit from that $17 billion are now mobilizing to oppose even those absurdly modest cuts. Just like producers who have no competition, federal agencies have no incentive to improve or to cut their budgets. History shows that the government agencies cut health care "costs" chiefly by imposing price controls on the private sector.

Corporatism represents an ugly deal between governments and producers. The hospitals, doctors, pharmaceutical companies, and health care labor unions hope that the corporativist bargain will guarantee future profits while eliminating competition. Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't. But there's absolutely no question that corporativist health care will increase inefficiencies, stifle innovation, and reduce consumer choice. That's a disastrous deal for the rest of us.

I hope more and more Americans learn to understand this.

555 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:25:49pm

re: #543 talon_262

Could be any more of a douche, Cato?

Could you be any more of a cobag?

"Douche" is a sexist term. I reject it in favour of 'cobag', for colostomy bag, as being gender neutral.

556 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:26:06pm

re: #545 Charles

Thanks for clamping down on the racist comments.

557 azcon  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:26:15pm

A year ago, it was suggested that we have a family (hospice) meeting at the hospital due to my fathers condition. He was 79 and on Medicare. They gave us the all of the information about hospice, but waited until the end to tell us that my father could not receive hospice care while also being on dialysis. He had no kidney function. Stopping dialysis means he dies in a week to 10 days. What the hell is that?

All of our jaws dropped to the floor when she said that, why call this meeting? ...at that moment stopping dialysis was not an option...he was not ready to "pull the plug." He wanted to experience every bit as much of grand daughters growing up as he could.

Based on that experience I have little doubt that that was a prerequisite to what we will see (probably worse) if Obamacare is implemented.

I guess we all have our own vision of what a "death panel" is. For me it doesn't seem as far fetched as it may for others.

558 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:26:16pm

re: #547 iceweasel

:) Better than Caribou Barbie, or the Wasilla Snowbilly, IMO.

BTW:


Love that one. My favourite song from that album in fact :)

559 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:27:57pm

re: #554 FrogMarch

I'll give you that. The competition seems ideally suited to rooting out inefficiencies like policyholders who actually dare to get sick.

560 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:29:05pm

re: #558 Jimmah

Love that one. My favourite song from that album in fact :)

Is it really? It's mine.

Reminds me of stoned sex in a Jacuzzi, actually. We were snowed in. Nice.

561 Capitalistincharge  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:29:11pm

re: #555 iceweasel

So, do you think we need to re-write all of the fairytales so they are more PC too? Good Grief.

562 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:31:09pm

re: #561 Capitalistincharge

So, do you think we need to re-write all of the fairytales so they are more PC too? Good Grief.

Is Grief a goddess, that you capitalize her?

I worship Gaia.

Blessed be, all creatures!

(Translation: Good night.)

563 Capitalistincharge  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:32:28pm

re: #562 Cato the Elder
You are an elitist ass

564 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:33:42pm

re: #561 Capitalistincharge

So, do you think we need to re-write all of the fairytales so they are more PC too? Good Grief.

Yes. Get to work, you. I expect to hear all about Little Red Riding Hood-- as an actual hood, preferably a member of the Bloods--, Snow White and the Seven Differently-Heighted Persons, and more.

Get to it!

565 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:36:30pm

re: #560 iceweasel

Is it really? It's mine.

Reminds me of stoned sex in a Jacuzzi, actually. We were snowed in. Nice.

Reminds me of the vast cold emptiness of space, entropy, pointlessness...

I must be doing something wrong here...;-)

566 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:36:58pm

re: #564 iceweasel

Yes. Get to work, you. I expect to hear all about Little Red Riding Hood-- as an actual hood, preferably a member of the Bloods--, Snow White and the Seven Differently-Heighted Persons, and more.

Get to it!

"Cinderella, or, The Rape of the Ruby Footwear."

567 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:39:06pm

re: #564 iceweasel

Yes. Get to work, you. I expect to hear all about Little Red Riding Hood-- as an actual hood, preferably a member of the Bloods--, Snow White and the Seven Differently-Heighted Persons, and more.

Get to it!

Perhaps "red" can refer to "Ginger Kids."

/

Coming up next, the morbidly obese. Is it offensive to Goths? /

568 Baelzar  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:42:29pm

Palin is becoming pure poison. She and her supporters are going to cost conservatives dearly.

Seriously, she is giving people more reason to run away from the Republican party. This death panel thing was a farce.

Yet people embrace her for it, hold her up as some kind of hero.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

569 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:45:40pm

re: #565 Jimmah

Reminds me of the vast cold emptiness of space, entropy, pointlessness...

I must be doing something wrong here...;-)

Aw, you were probably just alone in your Jacuzzi. :)

570 tradewind  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:49:35pm

re: #548 Cato the Elder

Redneck, not so much. Sounds a lot like pre-minstrel syndrome, though.
Less salt and sugar, more exercise.

571 kochsr  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:50:17pm

I read Palin's facebook piece, and found it more rational and persuasive than anything I've seen here. Honestly, when you start calling her juvenile names, you lose all credibility.

572 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:56:30pm

re: #559 Cato the Elder

I'll give you that. The competition seems ideally suited to rooting out inefficiencies like policyholders who actually dare to get sick.

People who have had a bad experience with their health insurance might say that. Polls show that upwards of 69% are generally happy with their private health insurance. I guess that means a big government take-over is the right answer? Good luck with that.
Vilify the insurance compaines all you want -you're in good company. Obama and the democraats have it down to an art.

573 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:57:57pm

re: #571 kochsr

"Liar" isn't juvenile, it's accurate.

574 tarkus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:58:04pm

re: #46 Charles

Charles, i read the article from lioness and it is very concerning to me that an unelected board will decide what the public health option will and will not pay for based on the concept of QUALYS and with the european public health service model in mind. The idea that this will be some kind of "death board" deciding life and death based on bang for the buck is not all that far off to me. I agree with Lioness.

575 tradewind  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:00:01pm

re: #555 iceweasel

It may be gender neutral, but it is an unfortunate reference to a medical condition that is pretty insensitive... I have a friend whose husband is in the hospital now struggling with infections and surgical complications.
'Douche' is so entrenched in the vernacular that it has even had the spelling dumb downed (as in ' doosh ' , and in any case, it was always voluntary... or the French word for ' shower '.
I don't think 'cobag' is a particularly appropriate replacement.
Just saying.

576 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:01:28pm
577 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:14:49pm

re: #573 Sharmuta

"Liar" isn't juvenile, it's accurate.

Not only that it wasn't even an original meme on her part.

578 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:15:31pm

re: #575 tradewind

It may be gender neutral, but it is an unfortunate reference to a medical condition that is pretty insensitive... I have a friend whose husband is in the hospital now struggling with infections and surgical complications.
'Douche' is so entrenched in the vernacular that it has even had the spelling dumb downed (as in ' doosh ' , and in any case, it was always voluntary... or the French word for ' shower '.
I don't think 'cobag' is a particularly appropriate replacement.
Just saying.

You're absolutely right.

Massive apologies for my stupid joke which was in extremely poor taste to begin with. In fact I don't think either terms are appropriate, but I should have thought about people like your friend's husband. (I've got a friend with a similar situation, as a complication from Crohn's Disease).

I hope you'll forgive me. In any case please know that I wish your friend's husband, and you, all the best.

579 joegosox  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:18:40pm

T4

From a combat vet and an American whose mother is near comatose.

580 Blue Belle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:33:51pm

re#557

After a consult with a hospice, my friend made her mother call all her friends to say "goodbye." The State of California hospice (of good reputation) said the mother should "just" stop all her medications that were costing so much money, she was was going to die anyway and might as well do it in an orderly fashion. She stopped most of her medications and then lived three more years at home, not at the hospice. When Palin said "death panels" this scenario came to my mind. I think Charles is right about Palin's irresponsibility in chosing those words to describe an end-of-life consult; however, there must have been many other people who have experienced and acted upon what seems as outrageous advice with the advantage of hindsight.

581 jamihabs  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:40:28pm

I missed the part where they discussed the allegations that folks who have questions are members of a mob, Nazis, and un-American.

Somehow I think ABC will steer clear of these myths.

582 retief_99  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:41:33pm

For your consideration,

[Link: www.wnd.com...]

583 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:46:11pm

re: #582 retief_99

Right. Weird Nut Drooly. Let's double down on the crazy!

584 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:51:08pm

re: #582 retief_99

For your consideration,

First of all, WND is better known as WingNut Daily, home to nirther rumours and generally a clearing house of crazy for the right.

Second, that article is, to put it kindly, shit.

Thirdly, "prominent pro-life activist Jill Stanek" they mention is actually "very well-known anti-choice liar Jill Stanek". You may remember her from such lifetime movies as A DINGO ET MAH BAYBE! and NOT WITHOUT MY ZYGOTE.

Sorry for the snark. Seriously, you never want to read anything from WND, or post it anywhere, or believe anything Jill Stanek says about anything.

585 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:51:17pm

re: #582 retief_99

What consideration. The author of that article, if you can call it an article, is Bob Unruh who authored some trash titled:

BORN IN THE USA? Eligibility lawyer says Homeland Security shadowing him Reports incidents involving county, federal agents

He's a nirther of the nth degree.

586 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:54:07pm

The problem that I have with the medical-pharmalogical-legal-insurance complex as it stands is that people who cannot afford insurance or treatment must wait for an ER-admittable emergency to receive care; they do not have the option of having a situation dealt with before it becomes immediate and severe. This situation costs all around; it needlessly endangers the life of the prospective patient, and ends up costing more to treat - costs that the doctors and hospitals pass on to the consumers, either directly or via increased health insurance rates.

Over the few years that I had my past medical insurance, my rates increased from $130/month to over $500, at a time when, due to the economy, my income level has been decreasing. I found it necessary to drastically cut corners - eating generic foods, going without heating and air conditioning, etc. - in order to maintain it. And then I had my sudden, unexpected attack of diverticulitis, which nearly killed me and required a two week hospital stay.

My doctor informed me that do to the infection and resultant peritonitis, it had been impossible to remove the diverticulated portion of my colon during surgery; all that they could do was to drain the infection and place me on a massive antibiotics regimen. But he also told me that I needed to have that section of my colon removed as soon as my recuperation was complete, to prevent a highly likely subsequent attack, which could prove fatal.

My insurance company was apparently also made aware of this necessity for future surgery, because they dropped me, and I cannot find replacement insurance at any doable price that would cover surgery for this now-preexistent condition.

I cannot afford the necessary surgery and extensive hospital stay on my own, so I am left in the position of having to wait for my next, possibly fatal, attack of diverticulitis in order to receive the surgery I need, and even then, the infection that would be present to cause a future attack could prevent that diverticulated section of my colon from being removed once again. The system has financially rationed me out; I have been economically triaged. At the same time, surgery under such circumstances would not only be vastly more life-threatening for me and vastly more likely to not be able to remedy the underlying condition; it would also be vastly more expensive - and those expenses would be bourne by the doctors and the hospitals, who would pass them on to other consumers, as I could not afford to pay them.

What would happen to people like me under Obamacare? I don't know. But I DO know what is happening to me under the present system, and it sucks on ice.

587 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:54:44pm

re: #584 iceweasel

First of all, WND is better known as WingNut Daily, home to nirther rumours and generally a clearing house of crazy for the right.

Second, that article is, to put it kindly, shit.

Thirdly, "prominent pro-life activist Jill Stanek" they mention is actually "very well-known anti-choice liar Jill Stanek". You may remember her from such lifetime movies as A DINGO ET MAH BAYBE! and NOT WITHOUT MY ZYGOTE.

Sorry for the snark. Seriously, you never want to read anything from WND, or post it anywhere, or believe anything Jill Stanek says about anything.

Remember what I said this morning about Schiavo? The writing is on the wall. The so-cons are back -- almost feels like 1994 all over again.

588 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:59:04pm

re: #587 Gus 802

589 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:59:08pm

re: #587 Gus 802

Remember what I said this morning about Schiavo? The writing is on the wall. The so-cons are back -- almost feels like 1994 all over again.

You know, I saw a story today on HuffPo about how all the Repub players in the Schiavo case are now all wailing about 'Obama Care" and government interference in end of life decisions. Did I link that for you or just mention it?

590 retief_99  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:00:11pm

re: #569 iceweasel

Funny, I am a conservative as is all my family, we all think Sarah is a great conservative. I think liberals and some conservatives are afraid of what she offers to conservatives.

591 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:02:23pm

re: #589 iceweasel

You know, I saw a story today on HuffPo about how all the Repub players in the Schiavo case are now all wailing about 'Obama Care" and government interference in end of life decisions. Did I link that for you or just mention it?

I don't remember seeing that link. After listening to a lot of the deather rhetoric within the context of "euthanasia" everything sort of fell or falls into place. Call it rhetoric or code words but it's the same base at work once again. Frankly it's a lot of the same organizations behind the misinformation.

592 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:03:33pm

re: #590 retief_99

Funny, I am a conservative as is all my family, we all think Sarah is a great conservative. I think liberals and some conservatives are afraid of what she offers to conservatives.

Yeah. I'm afraid of Palin. All the other libs I know are afraid of her too.

We're afraid we'll be killed with laughter if she runs in 2012 and there won't be a gubbmint health care plan to save us.

593 retief_99  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:03:36pm

re: #583 Charles

Didn't the same thing get said about Drudge and the Lewinsky story?

594 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:03:39pm

re: #590 retief_99

Funny, I am a conservative as is all my family, we all think Sarah is a great conservative. I think liberals and some conservatives are afraid of what she offers to conservatives.

What does she have to offer? Let's see, resigning from her governorship because she could handle the heat and/or criticism?

595 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:04:01pm

re: #594 Gus 802

What does she have to offer? Let's see, resigning from her governorship because she could not handle the heat and/or criticism?

PIMF

596 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:06:30pm

re: #592 iceweasel

Yeah. I'm afraid of Palin. All the other libs I know are afraid of her too.

We're afraid we'll be killed with laughter if she runs in 2012 and there won't be a gubbmint health care plan to save us.

Yeah, that would be interesting wouldn't it? A politician with low poll rating and one that resigned from office ascending the political ladder and into the Oval Office. Job experience: lost VP in 2008, quit governorship in 2009, speaker at Tea Parties.

597 azcon  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:07:41pm

re: #580 Blue Belle

Does someone get peoples attention by calling them "consultations" instead of "death panels"? In my dad's case it was a suggestion to die now and not later.

598 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:12:41pm
599 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:12:44pm

re: #594 Gus 802

What does she have to offer? Let's see, resigning from her governorship because she could handle the heat and/or criticism?

Yes. Palin has an excellent track record of quitting.

Quit several colleges, several times.
Quit the Wasilla City Council to run for mayor.
Quit as mayor to sit on the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission.
Quit the Commission to make a (failed!) run at Lt Gov.
Quit the governorship to...post on Facebook and twitter.

Sarah Palin: Nice Work If You Can Get It.

Run Sarah, Run!

600 retief_99  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:13:21pm

re: #597 azcon

The bills plan is to save money, money, money, old people cost a lot of money to keep alive and healthy. My Mother had to have her hip replaced at the age of 83, do you really think the Medical Advisory Board (death panel, MY Words) would decide that her operation is cost analysis positive?

601 Blue Belle  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:14:12pm

Azcon, I guess the "consultant" in the case I cited could be considered a mini "death panel" like your father's experience. "Just" stop taking your medication and die, because you're going to die soon anyway. Well, that's true of all of us "someday!"

602 retief_99  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:14:32pm

re: #599 iceweasel

Unbelievable, but I still like her, and would probably jerk the lever in her favor unless someone else was better.

603 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:14:59pm

re: #599 iceweasel

Yes. Palin has an excellent track record of quitting.

Quit several colleges, several times.
Quit the Wasilla City Council to run for mayor.
Quit as mayor to sit on the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission.
Quit the Commission to make a (failed!) run at Lt Gov.
Quit the governorship to...post on Facebook and twitter.

Sarah Palin: Nice Work If You Can Get It.

Run Sarah, Run!

I didn't know about all of those. Here's her governorship:

Palin resigned as Governor on July 26, 2009, two and a half years into her four-year term.

She barely served half the term if you consider the presidential campaign.

604 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:17:49pm

re: #582 retief_99

Skipping World Nut Daily, you can go to the compassionandchoices.org site to see what they actually say about health insurance reform, House Resolution 3200, Section 1233.

605 retief_99  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:20:40pm

re: #604 jaunte

I have downloaded the bill and I am reading it. If people don't read it they will get what they deserve, we are being lied to by the politicians as to what is in the bill.

606 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:24:25pm

re: #594 Gus 802

I have no idea why some view her as the second coming of Margaret Thatcher. At a certain point its all ridiculous, and I think we've reached that point.

607 azcon  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:24:45pm

re: #600 retief_99

Right.! It's the screw you, you are too old to spend any money on mentality. This should be no surprise coming from a guy that has no problem killing babies after they are born.

Why did so many people die in France during their heat wave in 2003? The elderly people's kids were too busy being on vacation to give a crap about them.

Coming soon in the USA? I hope not.

608 reaganII  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:24:49pm

Arguing about the wrong things. You do not want government to get their fingers into your health records, having control over whether you get a treatment or not.
Then if you are told you can't get a pacemaker as needed, you don't take a pill for that as Barack has said, you die.
Thats as close to a death panel as I've been. Had my doctors not been willing to go for the surgery, then it so long.
Put yourself in that situation and you'd understand why people are angry. You have no control over decisions if govt get into this.

609 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:25:39pm

re: #603 Gus 802

She barely served half the term if you consider the presidential campaign.

Palin is a quitter and a liar.

You know-- I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I defended her. I didn't want her anywhere near public office, but I thought the McCain campaign treated her poorly and some of the media attacks on her were unfair.

All that changed after this BS death panel "they want to kill Trig!" bullshit. This woman claimed that kids with special needs and their families would be her main priority as veep-- so how dare she spew those LIES when RIGHT NOW, in Ohio, insurance companies are allowed to call Downs syndrome a 'pre-existing condition" and deny coverage?

I'm outraged by this. The ONE area she pretended to care about-- claimed she would care about-- and guess what, it's all another fucking lie.

Done with her now, over that. Utterly disgusted.

610 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:25:43pm

As the saying goes, "Word is bond".

If you are willing to lie or distort the truth, for any reason, or tolerate/excuse those who do, you prove that your word and your bond isn't worth shit.

And as another saying goes, "A man (or woman) is only as good as his (or her) word".

611 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:26:14pm

re: #607 azcon

"Killing babies after they are born?" Where? Show me where he supports killing babies after they are born.

612 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:27:52pm

re: #611 Gus 802

Oh this oughta be good.

613 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:28:16pm

re: #611 Gus 802

That's a Glenn Beck talking point.

614 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:28:23pm

re: #609 iceweasel

Palin is a quitter and a liar.

You know-- I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I defended her. I didn't want her anywhere near public office, but I thought the McCain campaign treated her poorly and some of the media attacks on her were unfair.

All that changed after this BS death panel "they want to kill Trig!" bullshit. This woman claimed that kids with special needs and their families would be her main priority as veep-- so how dare she spew those LIES when RIGHT NOW, in Ohio, insurance companies are allowed to call Downs syndrome a 'pre-existing condition" and deny coverage?

I'm outraged by this. The ONE area she pretended to care about-- claimed she would care about-- and guess what, it's all another fucking lie.

Done with her now, over that. Utterly disgusted.

Exactly. I find myself in a similar position having defended her in the past. This is the proverbial last straw. Politically she has lost all value after resigning from office. This latest foray into the deather camp had ended my defense.

615 azcon  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:29:47pm

re: #608 reaganII

And was not that not Pare: #611 Gus 802

OK let's just say partially born. Does that work for you?

616 JohnnyCache  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:29:56pm

FWIW, I think Palin's concerns are legitimate and I believe she carefully calibrated her words for maximum effectiveness -- a pretty good political effort though I'm sorry to say I think her success was limited . . .

A few months ago some blogger criticized Obama's income tax cuts for folks who do not pay any income tax, "welfare" they called it. Some reponded that this was a "lie," that there was no mention of "welfare" in the proposal. Of course they were right which was part of the problem -- what's a good word for a means-tested program that results in a government check to low income families . . . how about "welfare?"

IMO this "Death Panel" uproar is similar -- don't expect to see such a phrase in any of the bills or on a sign in front of a building. But what's a good name of a commission that determines who, or under what conditions, individuals will receive either therapeutic or palliative care for serious conditions? How about "Death Panel?"

Obama wants to disarm his critics and, so, at the New Hampshire townhall he invoked the image of "pulling the plug on Grandma" -- he carefully calibrated his own words to depict such an incomprehensible scenario that he got many to dismiss the whole idea.

But as a couple have posted here, the real threat to us and our families (and yes, to Down Syndrome babies) is the Comparative Effectiveness Commission that would produce regulations to determine the treatment options available under thousands of contemplated situations: patient's age, primary and secondary diagnoses, etc.

So, Palin's critics are right; Obama does not expect anybody to appear in front of a Death Panel to plead their case. Indeed, Obama wouldn't want such a model -- you don't want petitions and person-to-person appeals. Think Janet Napolitano and the Homeland Security report that documented threats from right wing extremists -- yes, she was familiar with the report and had approved the release but had not actually read it . . . these things work better when they are issued by Kafkaesque nameless/faceless bureaucratic divisions.

And Palin's critics are also right about euthanasia; there are no serious proposals for euthanasia a la Dr. Kavorkian. But the organizing principle, that some people, particularly seniors, are using more than their fair share of health care spending and that such use needs to be reduced will result in many of today's treatments being withheld from certain patents. "But doctor, why can't Dad get that coronary bypass?" "I'm so sorry but Medicare has determined that it's just not effective for someone you dad's age in his condition. We'll try to keep him comfortable but there's really nothing else that I can do. Sorry."

No, they don't call it a "Death Panel" but you read about these bureaucratic polices on allowable treatments in Canada and the UK every week. And, according to some reports, at least one of the bills being considered includes language explaining that treatment decisions that follow this process CAN NOT BE APPEALED AND ARE NOT SUBJECT TO JUDICIAL REVIEW.

Bottom line, IMO, is that the bigger threat is the whole Comparative Effectiveness regime -- not the end-of-life counseling. So I'm glad that Paling spoke out and I'm glad she calibrated her words for maximum effectiveness. But the press and the politicians focused on the smaller target so we're not done yet.

617 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:30:17pm

re: #607 azcon

Right.! It's the screw you, you are too old to spend any money on mentality. This should be no surprise coming from a guy that has no problem killing babies after they are born.

Why did so many people die in France during their heat wave in 2003? The elderly people's kids were too busy being on vacation to give a crap about them.

Coming soon in the USA? I hope not.

Are you doing your best to emulate Palin? Kill babies AFTER they are born?!? wtf?

618 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:31:11pm
619 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:32:00pm

re: #615 azcon

And was not that not Pare: #611 Gus 802

OK let's just say partially born. Does that work for you?

Does that work for me? Are you suggesting that I would feel better if it was partial birth abortion? Show us the evidence that he supported that.

Keep digging -- I'll watch.

620 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:34:36pm
621 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:35:30pm

re: #619 Gus 802

Does that work for me? Are you suggesting that I would feel better if it was partial birth abortion? Show us the evidence that he supported that.

Keep digging -- I'll watch.

And laugh! :)

622 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:36:00pm

re: #619 Gus 802

Does that work for me? Are you suggesting that I would feel better if it was partial birth abortion? Show us the evidence that he supported that.

Keep digging -- I'll watch.

She'll go to that procedural vote where many voted against a version of partial birth abortion ban because it had no provisions about health of the mother. Even bloody Randall Terry said that if it was passed that way it would be struck down in court and that it was political theater.

623 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:37:44pm

re: #621 iceweasel

And laugh! :)

As I eagerly await the World Nut Drooly talking points. /

624 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:38:13pm

re: #603 Gus 802
Hey Gus! Hope you don't mind me interuppting here, but even if everything that's been said that's negative about Sarah Palin is true - and I don't know about all of her quitting the Wasilla City Council to run for Mayor type stuff, think of this: if someone told you in January of 2007, that a newly elected US Senator named Barack Obama, about whom we knew very little, other than he had graduated from Columbia College and Harvard Law School - and was president of the Law Review and had written a book calling some preacher hardly any of us had heard of, Jeremiah Wright his "spiritual advisor" and then someone bought (I suppose) one or more of the Rev's DVD's for sale which shocked many if not most of White America with it's blatant white racism (Black Liberation Theology) and other than being an Illinois State Senator who preferred to vote "present" on most bills with which he was presented, would be the next President of the United Sates of America and leader of the Free World, would you have believed them?
I mean, the GOP called him nothing but a community organizer (which was manifestly untrue) and an empty suit (cause he had no "track record" other than voting present, no college grades or transcrpits, no law school grades or transcripts and nothing written by him as President of the Harvard Law Review) and ...voila, he was our next President. In part I submit, because he was a Black man (garnering 96% of the Black vote) and it was - IMO - waaay past time a Black man got elected POTUS.
But you know, it's also waaay past time that a woman got elected POTUS too.
So all I'm saying is that American Politics can be very, very strange. And in 2012 I don't think ANYONE out here can say who's gonna be the GOP nominee and whether or not President Obama will win re-election.

625 Capitalistincharge  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:39:27pm

re: #623 Gus 802

Here..proof. And your talking points are showing.

626 reaganII  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:40:59pm

With Obama care, "Pulling the plug on grandma" is not the question. The question is, will it ever be plugged in to begin with?

627 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:41:35pm

re: #626 reaganII

There is no electricity in the FEMA camps.

628 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:41:51pm

re: #624 realwest

Hey Gus! Hope you don't mind me interuppting here, but even if everything that's been said that's negative about Sarah Palin is true - and I don't know about all of her quitting the Wasilla City Council to run for Mayor type stuff,

1) Wikipedia

2) Palin needs to never, ever, be near any elected office, ever again.

629 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:42:47pm

re: #624 realwest

Well, anything can happen I suppose. I don't think it's possible to compare the "random" outcome of Obama winning the election. He did have neutral and or positive opinion numbers leading up to the election. Palin on the other hand has neither and lost all political credibility. Her negatives are increasing in fact and I hate to say it but the Levi Johnston side show is just warming up.

630 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:43:38pm

re: #625 Capitalistincharge

Here..proof. And your talking points are showing.

Yeah, I'm a sekrit liberal from the Huffington Post. I collect my DNC checks daily.

631 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:43:41pm

This is an interesting analysis from Keith Hennessey:


The President’s fiscal policy is based upon a flawed health care premise, and the flaws are becoming apparent to a wider audience.

The Administration’s fiscal strategy is to increase short-term spending (and not just on health care) and more than offset those spending increases through long-term reductions in federal health care spending.

In theory this strategy could work, but by ducking painful policy choices on health care reform that would actually reduce long-term health care spending, the President and his team have placed their health care and fiscal policy strategies in jeopardy.[Link: keithhennessey.com...]

632 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:44:35pm

re: #627 Sharmuta

There is no electricity in the FEMA camps.

Teh inmates are forced to run around and around in giant hamster wheel thingies to power the windmills, which provide a cool and pleasant breeze for all the libs. Because in the future, we don't have air conditioning.

633 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:45:00pm
634 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:45:24pm

re: #632 iceweasel

Teh inmates are forced to run around and around in giant hamster wheel thingies to power the windmills, which provide a cool and pleasant breeze for all the libs. Because in the future, we don't have air conditioning.

With giant posters of the Obama-Hitler-Darwin monster!

//

635 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:46:27pm

It would have been easy for George Washington to quit at Valley Forge, or Lincoln after Bull Run. Americans do not respect those who do not have the fortitude to finish what they start. Sarah Palin is finished on the national stage.

636 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:47:37pm

re: #629 Gus 802
Excuse me Gus, but what is the "Levi Johnston side show" ?

637 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:48:10pm

re: #636 realwest

Excuse me Gus, but what is the "Levi Johnston side show" ?

He's the "almost son-in-law."

638 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:49:33pm

re: #628 iceweasel
"2) Palin needs to never, ever, be near any elected office, ever again."
Don't see why not, she'll just quit anyway! Although that would make the candidate for Vice-President a lot more interesting!
:)

639 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:49:59pm
640 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:50:00pm

re: #629 Gus 802

I hate to say it but the Levi Johnston side show is just warming up.

Gus-- totally agree. And I hear there is some major Levi Johnson shit coming down in Oct (or Nov). Vanity Fair, I think.

Buckle up boys! It's going to be a bumpy ride!

641 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:50:10pm

re: #629 Gus 802

She's dropped over 10% of her republican support in three months. That's not a great trend to be starting out on a national campaign.

642 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:50:17pm

re: #635 MrPaulRevere

It would have been easy for George Washington to quit at Valley Forge, or Lincoln after Bull Run. Americans do not respect those who do not have the fortitude to finish what they start. Sarah Palin is finished on the national stage.

The saying used to go, "no one likes a quitter." Of course times change which is not unlike "personal responsibility" and that other unrelated "Oxycontin" event that hit another famous pundit.

643 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:51:17pm

re: #640 iceweasel

Gus-- totally agree. And I hear there is some major Levi Johnson shit coming down in Oct (or Nov). Vanity Fair, I think.

Buckle up boys! It's going to be a bumpy ride!

Wind shear-pull up-wind shear-pull up! //

644 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:51:29pm

re: #635 MrPaulRevere

It would have been easy for George Washington to quit at Valley Forge, or Lincoln after Bull Run. Americans do not respect those who do not have the fortitude to finish what they start. Sarah Palin is finished on the national stage.

I can't understand why she couldn't have finished out the last 18 months of her term, and THEN hit the celeb speech and TV circuit to pay her legal defence bills.

Even Bill Clinton, whose legal bills were much greater, did that.

645 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:55:04pm

re: #644 Salamantis

I can't understand why she couldn't have finished out the last 18 months of her term, and THEN hit the celeb speech and TV circuit to pay her legal defence bills.

Even Bill Clinton, whose legal bills were much greater, did that.

And as they say, it looks better on your resume. Too late. She could have finished her term then gone on to possibly get a bachelors in American history -- something useful. Instead she quit and is now "deeply" involved in picking up other peoples talking points and reposting them on Facebook.

646 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:57:25pm

re: #644 Salamantis

I can't understand why she couldn't have finished out the last 18 months of her term, and THEN hit the celeb speech and TV circuit to pay her legal defence bills.

Even Bill Clinton, whose legal bills were much greater, did that.

Sal-- she quit because every single legislator in AK, whether repub or Dem, hated her. I'm not kidding. When she was babbling and squawking about not wanting to be a lame duck gov-- well, every bit of legistlation she wanted was cruising to a crushing, humiliating defeat. Truth.

She couldn't stick it out. And, as mentioned, she's a fucking quitter. It's what she does.

She doesn't actually want to govern. She likes running. That's it.

PALIN 2012!

647 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:58:06pm

re: #644 Salamantis

Bill Clinton garnered a certain amount of respect because he was perceived to be a fighter, and not a quitter. The problem with Sarah Palin is that she may not know she is finished, and she'll keep flopping around like a fish on the shore.

648 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:01:27pm

Robert Samuelson:

We should move toward coordinated care networks that take responsibility for their members' medical needs in return for fixed annual payments (called "capitation"). One approach is through vouchers; Medicare recipients would receive a fixed amount and shop for networks with the lowest cost and highest quality. Alternatively, government could shift its reimbursement of hospitals and doctors to "capitation" payments. Limited dollars would, in theory, force improvements in efficiency and effective care.

We're not having this debate. To engage it would require genuine presidential leadership, because, admittedly, these proposals would be hugely controversial. Medicare recipients -- present and future -- would feel threatened. Existing doctor-patient relationships might be disrupted. Spending limits would inspire fears of short-changed care. Hospitals, doctors and device manufacturers would object. Obama took a pass. He simply claims that his plan will do things it won't. What he's offering is an enlarged version of the status quo that, as he says, is already unsustainable.[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

649 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:02:27pm
650 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:02:28pm

re: #646 iceweasel

Sal-- she quit because every single legislator in AK, whether repub or Dem, hated her. I'm not kidding. When she was babbling and squawking about not wanting to be a lame duck gov-- well, every bit of legistlation she wanted was cruising to a crushing, humiliating defeat. Truth.

She couldn't stick it out. And, as mentioned, she's a fucking quitter. It's what she does.

She doesn't actually want to govern. She likes running. That's it.

PALIN 2012!

Right, she likes running. We've already heard what she had to say during the campaign and she repeated herself ad infinitum. Same old lines about "the first dude" and how he won the Iditarod. It was her version of McCain's line, "my friends."

651 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:02:37pm

re: #647 MrPaulRevere

Bill Clinton garnered a certain amount of respect because he was perceived to be a fighter, and not a quitter. The problem with Sarah Palin is that she may not know she is finished, and she'll keep flopping around like a fish on the shore.

At least Jindal had the good sense to objectively evaluate his creationist and exorcist political liabilities and his disastrous Republican Response performance and take himself out of the running for 2012.

652 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:05:24pm

re: #648 jaunte

I've always liked Samuelson, he avoids partisan hackery and is interested in what works.

653 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:06:17pm

John H. Cochrane:

But what about pre-existing conditions?

A truly effective insurance policy would combine coverage for this year's expenses with the right to buy insurance in the future at a set price. Today, employer-based group coverage provides the former but, crucially, not the latter. A "guaranteed renewable" individual insurance contract is the simplest way to deliver both. Once you sign up, you can keep insurance for life, and your premiums do not rise if you get sicker. Term life insurance, for example, is fully guaranteed renewable. Individual health insurance is mostly so. And insurers are getting more creative. UnitedHealth now lets you buy the right to future insurance—insurance against developing a pre-existing condition.

These market solutions can be refined. Insurance policies could separate current insurance and the right to buy future insurance. Then, if you are temporarily covered by an employer, you could keep the pre-existing-condition protection.
[Link: online.wsj.com...]

654 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:06:30pm

re: #651 Salamantis

At least Jindal had the good sense to objectively evaluate his creationist and exorcist political liabilities and his disastrous Republican Response performance and take himself out of the running for 2012.

Romney is the only one left that stands a chance. That is if he keeps his yapper shut and doesn't join the cacophony of delirious nirther-deather-creationist motor mouths.

655 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:06:46pm

re: #641 Sharmuta

She's dropped over 10% of her republican support in three months. That's not a great trend to be starting out on a national campaign.

IT's PERFECT. YOU SAY THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE JELLUS. AND BITTER. AND AFRAID. AFRAID OF SARAH!

PALIN 2012!

656 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:08:03pm

re: #655 iceweasel

IT's PERFECT. YOU SAY THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE JELLUS. AND BITTER. AND AFRAID. AFRAID OF SARAH!

PALIN 2012!

Gotta love unsubstantiated hubris. It's like a vacuum.

657 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:11:02pm

re: #656 Gus 802

Gotta love unsubstantiated hubris. It's like a vacuum.

It's a compacted mass of crazy so dense that the republican party itself cannot escape. It is called...the Wingularity.

658 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:11:13pm

re: #654 Gus 802

Romney is the only one left that stands a chance. That is if he keeps his yapper shut and doesn't join the cacophony of delirious nirther-deather-creationist motor mouths.

I couyld vote for Romney-Giuliani. Or the much more unlikely Giuliani-Romney; either way.

/there is nothing to fear in magic underwear but mystic skid marks

659 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:12:58pm

re: #657 iceweasel

It's a compacted mass of crazy so dense that the republican party itself cannot escape. It is called...the Wingularity.

There's a couple of rather popular blogs with comments from the Wingulants that just make me laugh. It's almost like they live in a separate reality.

660 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:13:59pm

Jindal isn't good enough.
Palin isn't good enough.
Romney isn't good enough.

Might as well just throw them all out!
Why even run a candidate in 2012?
The GOP just doesn't have anyone with the moral purity and unquestionable character of Barack Obama.

/ / /

661 tveitskog  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:14:20pm

Where’s the lie? Sarah stated “ (quote) The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. (end of qoute)” There is a playing of words and of course the bill doesn’t say “death panels” but the result is someone is going to live and someone is going to die.

662 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:15:03pm
663 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:16:28pm

re: #658 Salamantis

I couyld vote for Romney-Giuliani. Or the much more unlikely Giuliani-Romney; either way.

/there is nothing to fear in magic underwear but mystic skid marks

Rudy's dead. I'm telling you, there is so much fucking dirt on that guy...we ('teh left') were praying he'd get the nom. Praying.

If I were to be strictly partisan for a minute -- I'll tell you honestly that if not Palin for a nominee we would LOVE Rudy. That guy is dead.

664 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:16:31pm

re: #648 jaunte
Hey juante! As I said earlier today yesterday, that has been the single biggest problem of health care reform.
We can't even get an accurate handle on how many American Citizens are without heath insurance because they can't afford it! And yet, we are ready - or at least Obama and most of the Dems - are ready to weild a saber to "fix it" where a scalple may do the job better and more efficiently.
Samuelson is also right with respect to medicare patients - somewhere out here (probably not this thread) Killian Bundy said there were 44 MILLION American Citizens receiving Medicare and gave a link for that number. So Samuelson is correct that there will be great consternation among at least 44 Million Voters on the sort of approach he's suggesting ("capitation").
We really do need a calm discussion - and I do mean a calm, transparent discussion - of Health Care in America and Health Care Insurance in America. Who has it, who doesn't, who can afford health care insurance and who can't and what does the Federal Government have to do about any of it.
And, in point of fact, what CAN the Federal Government do about it.
In many ways - indeed, perhaps in the most significant ways - that transparent discussion needs to be held, as soon as possible.

665 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:16:52pm

Commenter 'Brooks', at Hennessey's site:

...it is not responsible for one, without a reasonable degree of research and effort at objective analysis, [to] make/accept the convenient assumption that there is no trade-off -- that what one is advocating is a win-win all around, all gain and no pain, as in the assertion that if we just forgo foreign policies that are harmful to us (and others) in themselves, we can have all the good stuff one is advocating essentially at no cost, or the assumption that if we just ensure that everyone has health insurance, the effect of that expansion of coverage will be lower federal spending on healthcare, not more.

[Link: keithhennessey.com...]

666 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:18:56pm

re: #663 iceweasel

Rudy's dead. I'm telling you, there is so much fucking dirt on that guy...we ('teh left') were praying he'd get the nom. Praying.

If I were to be strictly partisan for a minute -- I'll tell you honestly that if not Palin for a nominee we would LOVE Rudy. That guy is dead.

Hey, there's always Fred Thompson! /

667 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:19:37pm

re: #661 tveitskog

Where’s the lie? Sarah stated “ (quote) The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. (end of qoute)” There is a playing of words and of course the bill doesn’t say “death panels” but the result is someone is going to live and someone is going to die.

Under the present system, it is I who could be going to die:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It's like waiting to be gut shot by Godot.

And how much more health care could be afforded if so much value were not being siphoned off to afford massive profits for personal injury lawyers and health insurance companies? Enough to offset bureaucratic government waste?

It's a legitimate question.

668 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:19:42pm

re: #664 realwest

It's a hard conversation for a politician to have, as it requires him to admit he can't bring all things to all people. Public, transparent trade-offs are poison to pols, as each person who feels a loss is a vote "against."

669 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:20:17pm

Rule numero uno for presidential politics. A) Try and keep one wife or husband. B) If you do remarry marry someone in your own age group.

670 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:20:49pm

re: #654 Gus 802

Romney had good instincts in bowing out in 08, it wasn't his 'turn', the GOP is very much a traditional organization in that it values length of service. Just as it was Nixons time in '68, and Reagans time in '80, it will be Romney's time in 2012.

671 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:21:49pm

re: #669 Gus 802

Rule numero uno for presidential politics. A) Try and keep one wife or husband. B) If you do remarry marry someone in your own age group.

How many husbands have I had? You mean my own, or other women's?

/zsa zsa gabor

672 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:24:35pm

re: #670 MrPaulRevere

Romney had good instincts in bowing out in 08, it wasn't his 'turn', the GOP is very much a traditional organization in that it values length of service. Just as it was Nixons time in '68, and Reagans time in '80, it will be Romney's time in 2012.

True. And he does keep busy with real tasks. If he maintains that discipline and does not discard the principles that got him elected in Massachusetts he stand a good chance in 2012 -- I speak with regard to independents. He has excellent business sense and a good sense of humor.

673 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:30:31pm

re: #663 iceweasel

If I were to be strictly partisan for a minute -- I'll tell you honestly that if not Palin for a nominee we would LOVE Rudy. That guy is dead.

You couldn't have chosen a better candidate to run against that McCain. He was unlikeable and he didn't have conservative values.

You can try to convince us that Sarah Palin is a quitter, stupid, etc. all you want, but her strength is that she is the opposite of McCain. She believes in small government and individual liberty. She's still very likeable (45% approval rating.) She has a shot and a good one... especially if Obama and the Dems continue their campaign to insult anyone who so much as questions their health care plan.

674 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:30:48pm

re: #672 Gus 802

True. And he does keep busy with real tasks. If he maintains that discipline and does not discard the principles that got him elected in Massachusetts he stand a good chance in 2012 -- I speak with regard to independents. He has excellent business sense and a good sense of humor.

Totally agree. Mitt could do it. Speaking as a once and future political campaign strategist for the left--- Mitt is the one (currently) who I would really, really not like to see running in 2012.

675 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:30:59pm

re: #668 jaunte Well ordinarily I'd agree with you juante, but I was serious in asking my question of how many Americans do not have access to health care or cannot afford health care insurance?
Depending on the answer to that question, may be not such a poison pill to a politician.
Of course, if all the "debate" or at least postions taken by politicians are based purely or mostly on political power you're correct.
But I am trying here to give honest creds to the Dems who have proposed whatever the hell we have now proposed as health care reform as a means to a very necessary end.
Without a willingness to discuss that - and without a willingness to discuss why Health Care Reform - latest version of which I'm aware - will NOT apply to Federal employees (especially Congress and it's numerous staff members and certain unions) then all we'll get out of all this horseshit is...nothing.

676 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:31:42pm

re: #674 iceweasel

If he can swing hard on fiscal responsibility, he'll be tough to beat.

677 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:32:02pm

re: #673 NukeAtomrod

You couldn't have chosen a better candidate to run against that McCain. He was unlikeable and he didn't have conservative values.

You can try to convince us that Sarah Palin is a quitter, stupid, etc. all you want, but her strength is that she is the opposite of McCain. She believes in small government and individual liberty. She's still very likeable (45% approval rating.) She has a shot and a good one... especially if Obama and the Dems continue their campaign to insult anyone who so much as questions their health care plan.

You're totally right. PALIN 2012! RUN SARAH RUN!

678 tveitskog  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:32:38pm

re: #667 Salamantis

I'm seventy years old and have access to excellent medical treatment. I think not under a government system. Oh, I've never signed up for medicare.

679 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:32:46pm

re: #674 iceweasel

Totally agree. Mitt could do it. Speaking as a once and future political campaign strategist for the left--- Mitt is the one (currently) who I would really, really not like to see running in 2012.

Thanks. Sent that in an email to my GOP cabal. ;)

Hey, what's the word on Sen. Jim Webb? He always seemed rather stable. Some of the Blue Dogs have a lot of potential.

680 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:32:53pm

Sarah Palin is not the answer.

681 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:32:55pm

re: #672 Gus 802

Well, he does need to work on his people skills; he seems to be somewhat wooden, if you will. Reagan and Clinton both had that ability to relate to the average Joe or Josephine. Jimmy Carter and HW Bush didn't which is why they were one termer's, obviously.

682 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:33:45pm

re: #676 Sharmuta

If he can swing hard on fiscal responsibility, he'll be tough to beat.

Well, he's had experience in salvaging the bottom lines of large bankrupt institutions (see US Olympics).

683 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:34:36pm

re: #680 jaunte

Sarah Palin is not the answer.

Unless the question is, Who is the least likely person to win in 2012?

684 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:34:48pm

re: #678 tveitskog

I'm seventy years old and have access to excellent medical treatment. I think not under a government system. Oh, I've never signed up for medicare.

I gotcha; you've got yours, so fuck the rest. Including me.

685 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:35:27pm

re: #678 tveitskog
Good morning - you said that "I'm seventy years old and have access to excellent medical treatment. I think not under a government system. Oh, I've never signed up for medicare."
Do you mind telling me what sort of health care treatment you do have (e.g., private insurance?)?

686 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:36:30pm

re: #675 realwest

...Without a willingness to discuss that - and without a willingness to discuss why Health Care Reform - latest version of which I'm aware - will NOT apply to Federal employees (especially Congress and it's numerous staff members and certain unions) then all we'll get out of all this horseshit is...nothing.

What I'm getting out of all of it is the distinct sense that no one wants to talk about the real problem, which is that we're running out of ways to pay for everything we want.

687 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:36:46pm

re: #679 Gus 802

Thanks. Sent that in an email to my GOP cabal. ;)

Hey, what's the word on Sen. Jim Webb? He always seemed rather stable. Some of the Blue Dogs have a lot of potential.

Shit. I'm drinking and I've SAID TOO MUCH.

Hey, how about that Rudy guy? Seems like he might go far... *whistles innocently, walks away, trips over empty vodka bottle, pratfalls*.

688 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:36:52pm

re: #681 MrPaulRevere

Well, he does need to work on his people skills; he seems to be somewhat wooden, if you will. Reagan and Clinton both had that ability to relate to the average Joe or Josephine. Jimmy Carter and HW Bush didn't which is why they were one termer's, obviously.

I wonder sometimes if it's because of his appearance. He also has a good speaking voice. Perhaps that adds to the wooden appearance. However I've seen it when he loosens up and he's actually pretty funny then. Not that being funny is a requirement but it helps counter the stiffness.

689 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:37:21pm

re: #680 jaunte
What or who is? For that matter, what is the question we're seeking to get an answer to here?

690 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:38:09pm

re: #687 iceweasel

Shit. I'm drinking and I've SAID TOO MUCH.

Hey, how about that Rudy guy? Seems like he might go far... *whistles innocently, walks away, trips over empty vodka bottle, pratfalls*.

Hubert Humphrey 2012!

No, wait...

//

691 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:38:39pm

Why the down ding, Sharmuta? Do you think we really need to have a perfect candidate? Obama's win should demonstrate that perfection is not a necessary trait.

Obama has lots of flaws, but he believes what the progressive/liberals believe. Big government, wealth redistribution, etc.

692 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:39:09pm

re: #686 jaunte

What I'm getting out of all of it is the distinct sense that no one wants to talk about the real problem, which is that we're running out of ways to pay for everything we want.


Sigh. And I'm still sitting here waiting to find out what it is that we want and who are the "we".

693 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:40:09pm

re: #689 realwest

What or who is? For that matter, what is the question we're seeking to get an answer to here?

How to provide an affordable safety net that provides necessary health care for all those who cannot afford it. Not everything everybody wants, but everything they really need.

694 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:42:15pm

re: #692 realwest

What Sal said...
And what people need means making tradeoffs.

695 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:42:32pm

re: #674 iceweasel
Um "Speaking as a once and future political campaign strategist for the left..." How's about sharing with us? I've never met (at least to my knowledge) a political campaign strategist for the Left or the Right - what's it like?

696 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:42:45pm

re: #684 Salamantis

I gotcha; you've got yours, so fuck the rest. Including me.

Should he have to give up his in favor of you? Why? Didn't he earn his?

697 tveitskog  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:42:47pm

re: #684 Salamantis
And by the way, I'm still working full time. I didn't realize you expected me to cover your medical.

698 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:43:54pm

re: #696 NukeAtomrod

Should he have to give up his in favor of you? Why? Didn't he earn his?

He can keep his, as far as I'm concerned. I just need that operation.

699 jaunte  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:44:54pm

My personal health advisor has advised me that I'd better come to bed if I want to remain healthy. Good night all.

700 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:45:04pm

re: #697 tveitskog

And by the way, I'm still working full time. I didn't realize you expected me to cover your medical.

Didn't seem like he wanted you to cover his medical. Did it?

So if you're still working what happens when you stop. Going on Medicare then?

701 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:45:24pm

re: #698 Salamantis

He can keep his, as far as I'm concerned. I just need that operation.

And you want him to pay for it. And you'll call him a jerk if he doesn't want to. I see...

702 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:47:36pm
703 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:47:41pm

re: #701 NukeAtomrod

And you want him to pay for it. And you'll call him a jerk if he doesn't want to. I see...

Just ran a search and didn't find an instance of Salamantis calling anyone a jerk.

704 tveitskog  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:48:28pm

re: #685 realwest


private insurance with a high deductible

705 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:49:09pm

re: #695 realwest

Um "Speaking as a once and future political campaign strategist for the left..." How's about sharing with us? I've never met (at least to my knowledge) a political campaign strategist for the Left or the Right - what's it like?

Oh you know...handing out the Che Guevera flags to campaign offices brought me down. But every evening we had the ritual flag burning, the spanking and the oral sex. And then the Monty Python videos...oh god, the Monty Python.

706 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:49:27pm

re: #697 tveitskog

And by the way, I'm still working full time. I didn't realize you expected me to cover your medical.

After my diverticulitis attack, it would be suicide for me to engage in full time strenuous labor. I do all the work that I safely can do, on the internet. And when I DO have another diverticulitis attack and get rushed to the ER, it will be you, and the rest of the US citizenry, paying for it anyway, through increased doctor and hospital costs and health insurance premiums; you'll just have to pay much more than if I had my operation now. And I'll be much more likely to die.

It's a lose-lose for both of us.

707 tveitskog  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:50:44pm

re: #700 Gus 802

Probably, sure the hell have paid into it long enough.

708 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:50:57pm

re: #703 Gus 802

Just ran a search and didn't find an instance of Salamantis calling anyone a jerk.

For the love of god... no he didn't specifically say that, but what is implied by this statement?

I gotcha; you've got yours, so fuck the rest. Including me.

Or what do you infer? If we must be uberspecific.

709 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:51:46pm

re: #707 tveitskog

Probably, sure the hell have paid into it long enough.

Ah, OK.

710 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:55:03pm

I notice that people love to talk about how changes in our present system could lead to some people not receiving the care they need, but they get damn defensive when someone points out how that is already happening under the present system. And they'll keep it up, as long as the present system meets their personal needs, only changing their tune when it no longer does.

I oughtta know; I used to be one of them - until it happened to me.

711 tveitskog  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:55:30pm

re: #706 Salamantis

Diverticulitis?? What, never have heard of that.

712 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:56:59pm

re: #706 Salamantis

After my diverticulitis attack, it would be suicide for me to engage in full time strenuous labor. I do all the work that I safely can do, on the internet. And when I DO have another diverticulitis attack and get rushed to the ER, it will be you, and the rest of the US citizenry, paying for it anyway, through increased doctor and hospital costs and health insurance premiums; you'll just have to pay much more than if I had my operation now. And I'll be much more likely to die.

There isn't a single one of us that doesn't have sympathy for your health problems. As I'm sure you would have for any of ours. That said, you still don't have a right to anyone else's money to pay for your treatment. What you need, if you can't pay, is charity. And charity should be asked for and appreciated, not demanded and expected.

713 nonic  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 10:58:33pm

re: #166 swamprat

Heard some radio pundit, (sounded like Hannity), claiming that prevention will not lower medical costs. I don't see how these guys can say this stuff with a straight face. Bet he still changes the oil in his car.

How "preventive care" will not lower costs.

“Preventive care” usually means doing a lot of screenings. Those screenings ARE “care” and are not done for free.

If you’re talking about ONE patient, and a screening costs $100, and it finds and prevents a problem that would have cost $5,000, then the screening has saved $4,900.

However, if the usual incidence of the problem is 1 in 1,000 patients having the problem, and you screen 1,000 people at $100 per screening, you have spent $100,000 to find ONE person on whom you can save $4,900. The net result is that your “preventive care” has cost an additional $95,100 (increased cost) to no purpose.

"Changing the oil" in a car is not "preventive care. It is analogous to a person getting exercise and eating properly. That is something everyone should be doing on his own without being paid by the government to do it. That kind of behavior is not re-imbursed by private insurance and would not be by a "public option."

714 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:00:02pm

re: #711 tveitskog

Diverticulitis?? What, never have heard of that.

Are your fingers broken? Ever heard of Google at they very least?

715 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:00:30pm

re: #712 NukeAtomrod

What was that? Dickens?

716 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:01:06pm

re: #693 Salamantis
Gack! Sal, that's what I've been writing about in my
comments above( #'s 664,675) - we NEED to identify those people who have legitimate medical needs, what those needs are and then proceed to figure out how to provide the "safety net" or whatever you want to call it.
I'm not even sure we CAN figure that out with the kind or precision I'd like, but I'd sure as hell like to see our elected officials discuss that.
But I know we aren't going to get that from the current crop of political leaders - for them, Health Care/ Insurance Reform is all about POWER. To the very best of my knowledge Sal, we've never had discussions - open and transparent in spite of what my good friend juante has said -about that.
If there are in fact 44 million Americans on Medicare, for example, how many of them need Medicare? Do we provide it for those with currently terminal diseases? Do we provide it ONLY for those who are still "productive" members of society?
It sure seems to me that those discussions HAVE to be had before we can really move this whole Health Care and Health Insurance "reform" along because we really don't know the dimensions of the problems we face, much less if the Government is the answer.

717 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:01:45pm

re: #711 tveitskog

Diverticulitis?? What, never have heard of that.

It's when a pocket develops in your lower colon in which food can collect and turn septic. The swelling this causes seals the pocket away from the rest of the colon, and the pus pressure builds until it blows a hole in the colon wall, infecting your entire lower GI tract. I only became aware of it when the damn thing blew; then the sudden pain was excruciatingly intense. They had me on the max dose of IV morphine for 4 days. And since there was a big chance I wouldn't make it through, they had me fill out a living will as soon as I woke up from surgery.

That pocket's still there. And until I get it surgically removed, I am at substantial risk of a future attack.

718 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:02:14pm

Sarah Palin is not a quitter, damnit!

She simply decided to give notice that she wasn't going to be showing up for her job anymore, that's all.
/

719 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:04:39pm

re: #712 NukeAtomrod

There isn't a single one of us that doesn't have sympathy for your health problems. As I'm sure you would have for any of ours. That said, you still don't have a right to anyone else's money to pay for your treatment. What you need, if you can't pay, is charity. And charity should be asked for and appreciated, not demanded and expected.

WTF? You think it's ok for the wealthiest nation on earth to have so many uninsured, or underinsured, and going without care?

And you think that if we provide care, they have to be sufficiently grateful?

Gus802 was right. How profoundly Dickensian of you-- you want the little orphan to hold out his bowl and say "please sir", is that right?

Ptooi.

720 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:05:08pm

re: #715 Gus 802

What was that? Dickens?

It's all me and it's what I believe. Does that make me old fashioned?

721 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:05:22pm

People that say that health care is "not a right" are assholes. I could care less about the rationalizations.

722 nonic  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:05:29pm

re: #176 SixDegrees

Terry Schiavo.

Did you know that the lawyer who worked (for free) for her husband to help get her killed is now working for Obama? Another one of his "advisers" on health care.

723 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:06:14pm

re: #712 NukeAtomrod

There isn't a single one of us that doesn't have sympathy for your health problems. As I'm sure you would have for any of ours. That said, you still don't have a right to anyone else's money to pay for your treatment. What you need, if you can't pay, is charity. And charity should be asked for and appreciated, not demanded and expected.

And there are panels that decide who does and does not receive such charity; diverticulitis isn't a glamorous malady good for PR purposes, so I don't get it.

Just how is this any different from 'death panels?"

724 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:06:37pm

re: #704 tveitskog
OK - I deduced that from your prior posts. But what about people who are literally, medically unable to work?
To whom do they turn for both health care/insurance and money with which to live?
And as an example, I have terminal cancer. I've worked and paid taxes and MUCHO social security for over 40 years of my life and am currently on SSDI - which pays me nearly $1,000 a month less than will Social Security when I reach age 67. I turned to Medicare because I couldn't afford private insurance and now find out that Medicare is, in fact, costing me $200+ per month more than COBRA'd Private Insurance. So to whom do I turn?

725 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:08:54pm

re: #719 iceweasel

WTF? You think it's ok for the wealthiest nation on earth to have so many uninsured, or underinsured, and going without care?

And you think that if we provide care, they have to be sufficiently grateful?

Gus802 was right. How profoundly Dickensian of you-- you want the little orphan to hold out his bowl and say "please sir", is that right?

Ptooi.

Why don't you just come to my house with your gun and take my money from me? You deserve it don't you? And I'm just sooo greedy and won't hand it all over to you. (For the record, you probably have a lot more money than me already. Maybe you should send me some?)

726 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:09:27pm

re: #723 Salamantis

And there are panels that decide who does and does not receive such charity; diverticulitis isn't a glamorous malady good for PR purposes, so I don't get it.

Just how is this any different from 'death panels?"

Don't bother arguing with these people. They don't know until they cross that road. The real "death panels" in fact as you mention are the insurance companies.

727 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:10:15pm

re: #722 nonic

Get her killed? WTF are you on about?

728 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:10:50pm

re: #725 NukeAtomrod

Why don't you just come to my house with your gun and take my money from me? You deserve it don't you? And I'm just sooo greedy and won't hand it all over to you. (For the record, you probably have a lot more money than me already. Maybe you should send me some?)

Who mentioned a gun? You always have these violent thoughts?

729 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:12:19pm

re: #725 NukeAtomrod

Why don't you just come to my house with your gun and take my money from me? You deserve it don't you? And I'm just sooo greedy and won't hand it all over to you. (For the record, you probably have a lot more money than me already. Maybe you should send me some?)

Your doctors, hospital, and insurance companies are already taking it from you in increaed fees to cover the costs of those who can't pay for their ER treatment.

730 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:13:26pm

re: #723 Salamantis

And there are panels that decide who does and does not receive such charity; diverticulitis isn't a glamorous malady good for PR purposes, so I don't get it.

Just how is this any different from 'death panels?"

Individuals give to people in need to, you know. Have you ever seen one of those jars on a store counter with a picture and plea for money to help for an operation? I pretty much always drop my change in them. Don't you? And, no, I don't expect to be personally thanked by the recipient, but I damn sure know they appreciate it.

731 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:13:44pm

re: #724 realwest

So to whom do I turn?

I guess some would prefer you'd face a "death panel" than use their taxes for your health.
/sarc

How are you doing, Real? Hope things are looking up for you.

732 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:15:05pm

re: #706 Salamantis
Uh, Sal, I really feel for you. My most recent former wife had diverticulitis attacks twice. The first one the doctors were able to resolve with antibiotics. The second one required an 8 hour surgery and removal of 14" of her colon (or large intenstine, sorry, senior moment here). Her insurance paid for ALL of the Doctor and Hospital bills. WE had to cover (that is, I had to cover) her lost wages as she was out of work for several weeks before surgery and for three full months thereafter. But she had GREAT health insurance. No 80% copay and her deductible was ridiculously low.
I know you don't believe in prayer, but I do send you my best wishes and hopes. And I'm gonna pray for you anyway.
But I also have diverticulosis - only one minor attack of diverticulitis and antibiotics took care of that; what I have now is gonna require a "minor" surgical proceedure and probably radiation thereapy 5 days a week for 8 or 9 weeks. If Medicare doesn't pay that and the doctor and hospital don't pay that the they don't get paid. Period. Or they choose not to do the suregery/radiation and I die. Period.

733 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:16:00pm

re: #730 NukeAtomrod

Individuals give to people in need to, you know. Have you ever seen one of those jars on a store counter with a picture and plea for money to help for an operation? I pretty much always drop my change in them. Don't you? And, no, I don't expect to be personally thanked by the recipient, but I damn sure know they appreciate it.

I'm not a rosy-cheeked girl with cancer or a hole in her heart; I am a middle aged man who needs part of his colon cut out.

Somehow I don't think that I'd be having Salvation-Army-at-Christmas success.

734 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:18:52pm

re: #728 Gus 802

Who mentioned a gun? You always have these violent thoughts?

It's the same thing as requiring me to pay into your health care system by act of law. What would happen if I didn't pay the health care portion of my taxes? I'd be fined and when I didn't pay that, I'd go to jail. You want to take my money to pay for your health care by force.

To answer your second question, yes. I have an active imagination and often use hyperbole in my writing.

735 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:20:02pm

re: #729 Salamantis

Your doctors, hospital, and insurance companies are already taking it from you in increaed fees to cover the costs of those who can't pay for their ER treatment.

I can always opt out of my health insurance if I don't think it's in my best interest. You want to take that option away from me.

736 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:21:02pm

re: #731 Slumbering Behemoth Hi Slumnbering Behemoth - I'm not doing all that well these days - and I have to constantly TRY to restrain myself when health care insurance/costs/usefullness of the patient to society/type bullshit comes up, or I'm gonna go postal out here!
How are you doing?

737 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:23:11pm

re: #735 NukeAtomrod

I can always opt out of my health insurance if I don't think it's in my best interest. You want to take that option away from me.

No I don't. I'm not lobbying for a single payer plan; I'm saying we need a medical safety net that works better than the porous one we've got. How we get there is not important to me; what IS important to me is that we DO get there.

738 Gus  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:23:33pm

re: #735 NukeAtomrod

I can always opt out of my health insurance if I don't think it's in my best interest. You want to take that option away from me.

So in reality you're not even paying for your health insurance.

739 ladycatnip  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:24:17pm

#735 NukeAtomrod

I can always opt out of my health insurance if I don't think it's in my best interest. You want to take that option away from me.

Not only would they take this option away from us, but if we don't have insurance, there's a tax penalty on individuals and on businesses.

740 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:26:15pm

re: #712 NukeAtomrod

There isn't a single one of us that doesn't have sympathy for your health problems. As I'm sure you would have for any of ours. That said, you still don't have a right to anyone else's money to pay for your treatment. What you need, if you can't pay, is charity. And charity should be asked for and appreciated, not demanded and expected.


I have to go to sleep now or I'd "discuss" this with you at great length. But for now, all I can say is that the milk of human kindness runs extremely shallow in you. And DON'T KID YOURSELF; people can SUDDENLY, out of no where, acquire extraordinarilly debilitating and sometimes terminlal illnesses for which THEY NEED OUR HELP in getting that medical treatment.
Just pray or if you're not the praying type, HOPE that you don't suddenly find yourself in Sal or my situations.
And btw, FUCK YOU TOO.

741 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:27:00pm

Goodnight you all, hope you have a great early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good Night, all.

742 nonic  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:27:12pm

re: #727 Slumbering Behemoth

Get her killed? WTF are you on about?

You remember Terry Shiavo. Her husband wanted her food and water withdrawn so that she would die of starvation and dehydration. Her parents wanted to be responsible for her care themselves so that she could go on living. The husband claimed she had told him she would want to die. The parents disputed that, and there was no hard evidence either way. The husband went to court -- amid considerable and varied public interventions -- to get an order from a judge to enforce the husband's will.

By court order, her food and water were withdrawn, and some 20 days later she died. She did not die a "natural death." She was killed, just as any person (an infant, a quadriplegic, a stroke victim, an Alzheimer's patient) who is unable to eat and drink by themselves would be killed by a caretaker who deliberately withheld food and water.

You can support the action taken on (or against) Terry Schiavo. That is your prerogative. I am doing no more than describing it.

And... mentioning that one of the lawyers who worked for Terry Shiavo's husband to obtain the court order that subjected her to starvation and dehydration is now one of Obama's healthcare advisors.

Sorry, I do not remember his name, and I do not have a ready link. But I read it the other day, and it probably wouldn't be too difficult for anyone interested to google up.

Slumbering Behemoth, if you respond further, could you attempt a little more civility, please?

743 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:28:21pm

re: #739 ladycatnip

#735 NukeAtomrod

Not only would they take this option away from us, but if we don't have insurance, there's a tax penalty on individuals and on businesses.

That's not gonna work; folks who can't afford health insurance premiums sure as hell can't afford to pay IRS penalties. They'd have to imprison tens of millions of people in government debtors' prisons, at taxpayer expense.

Good luck with that.

744 ladycatnip  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:30:28pm

#743

It's in the bill. There's a 2.5% penality on your income if you don't have insurance. There's also a penality on businesses. I read it. Just don't have time to give the page number.

745 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:30:49pm

re: #733 Salamantis

I'm not a rosy-cheeked girl with cancer or a hole in her heart; I am a middle aged man who needs part of his colon cut out.

Somehow I don't think that I'd be having Salvation-Army-at-Christmas success.

If you're really in great need, you should put up a webpage and make your case. Take donations by PayPal. You will get them if you try. Don't wait for the government to save you. Even if Obama rams his plan through, you probably won't get what you need from it.

And you can find work that doesn't require physical activity. How about a call center? You could take orders for products and services, or do technical support, sitting in a chair in front of a computer all day. It's not great work, but you can do it and you'll get a steady paycheck. My local cable company even gives medical coverage to their employees.

If you really need something, you can make it happen. All by yourself. Some people can't, and that's where charity comes in.

746 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:32:45pm

re: #736 realwest

Sorry to hear it Real, I wish you all the best. I'm doin' okay.

I dig where you're coming from when you get heated over the "health care insurance/costs/usefullness of the patient to society/type bullshit". It seems there are some who are ready to get enraged over imaginary "death panels" for one demographic, yet seem more than happy to advocate for their own style of "death panel" when it comes to another demographic.

Don't let these threads get you wound up, though. If you need to, just walk away and do something else that will make you smile. You need that energy to fight for your life right now. Don't waste it on threads that will make you angry.

I know that no one lives forever, but LGF wouldn't be the same without a Realwest. Get well soon, Lizard. You know everyone here is rooting for you.

747 nonic  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:35:48pm

re: #743 Salamantis

and ladycatnip

People who cannot afford insurance will be subsidized by the government. That's one of the reasons for making the IRS the enforcer. So the feds will know who can afford what --- by their charts and tables.

It is people who the government deems CAN afford insurance but do not buy it who will be fined.

748 tveitskog  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:36:30pm

re: #724 realwest
I’m sad for you and I have a lot of compassion for anyone who has health problems but I will refer you again to what Dr. Sowell stated “government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost” basically you probably will not get much treatment under a government run system.

I can’t understand the faith of some people thinking a government bureaucrat controlled medical system will be more consumer friendly than a profit-seeking business. However, what ever happens in the end with healthcare, the system should be the same for everyone and I include all the politicians and their friends. It’s not fair or right for the Taxpayers and the politicians and their friends to have different systems and quietly behind closed doors that’s exactly what will happen. The Taxpayers will get the crappie system and the politicians and their friends will give themselves the golden system and the Taxpayers pay for the whole thing.

749 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:38:47pm

re: #746 Slumbering Behemoth Thank you. It's not easy not getting PISSED OFF when I know that a certain "minor" surgery can lead to radiation therapy (which is not a thing of joy and beauty unto it's ownself) but which will give me an 80 or 90% chance of living 5 years or more AND that in those 5 years, the Mayo Clinic will have finalized their larger test runs whereby - in the smaller test run - ALL OF THEIR PATIENTS WERE CURED of the very cancer which I have. I need it to buy the time necessary to be CURED of my cancer.
And fuck it - I've more than paid my dues for and to my country; I don't think it's unreasonable for my country to do the same for me.

750 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:40:42pm

re: #740 realwest

I have to go to sleep now or I'd "discuss" this with you at great length. But for now, all I can say is that the milk of human kindness runs extremely shallow in you. And DON'T KID YOURSELF; people can SUDDENLY, out of no where, acquire extraordinarilly debilitating and sometimes terminlal illnesses for which THEY NEED OUR HELP in getting that medical treatment.
Just pray or if you're not the praying type, HOPE that you don't suddenly find yourself in Sal or my situations.
And btw, FUCK YOU TOO.

Look. You don't really know me or my health situation, so you shouldn't judge. I don't share my sob story with everyone I meet on the internet and I'm going to keep it that way. At any rate, I forgive you for your emotional outburst. I won't take it personally.

751 realwest  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:40:55pm

re: #748 tveitskog
Well

the system should be the same for everyone and I include all the politicians and their friends. It’s not fair or right for the Taxpayers and the politicians and their friends to have different systems and quietly behind closed doors that’s exactly what will happen. The Taxpayers will get the crappie system and the politicians and their friends will give themselves the golden system and the Taxpayers pay for the whole thing.

with that I concur.
Now I must get some sleep.

752 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:41:13pm

re: #742 nonic

First, I was in no way uncivil.

Second, Terry's brain was already dead. They were keeping a husk alive with machinery.

Third, she wasn't a minor. She was a grown, married woman. The decision was her husbands to make based on the wishes she expressed to him.

Fourth, and finally, all those who took this situation on as a "right to life" issue are disgusting ghouls. They took the misery and suffering of private individuals and used it for political gain. They are one of the worst kinds of scum this world has to offer.

753 nonic  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:41:40pm

re: #749 realwest

I will pray for you, friend. Will you pray for me, too, please?

How is your mom?

754 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:42:44pm

re: #745 NukeAtomrod

If you're really in great need, you should put up a webpage and make your case. Take donations by PayPal. You will get them if you try. Don't wait for the government to save you. Even if Obama rams his plan through, you probably won't get what you need from it.

And you can find work that doesn't require physical activity. How about a call center? You could take orders for products and services, or do technical support, sitting in a chair in front of a computer all day. It's not great work, but you can do it and you'll get a steady paycheck. My local cable company even gives medical coverage to their employees.

If you really need something, you can make it happen. All by yourself. Some people can't, and that's where charity comes in.

Counting surgery, a lot of meds, and a lengthy hospital stay, we're talking substantially into six figures here. And most employee health insurance doesn't cover preexisting conditions like mine; certainly not at the call center level.

Neither I nor my condition are glamorous or appealing enough to make PR hay, which is what medical charity is all about.

I'm just struggling to keep my financial head above water, waiting for the next attack (which, according to the doctor, is eventually damn near inevitable), and hoping it doesn't kill me, and that they will be able to perform the corrective surgery this time that medical circumstances prevented them from performing the last time.

755 nonic  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:43:33pm

re: #752 Slumbering Behemoth

We disagree.

756 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:44:29pm

re: #751 realwest

'Nite Real. Hang in there Lizard.

757 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:51:21pm

re: #754 Salamantis

I would be fine with a simple regulation requiring an insurance company to cover pre-existing conditions. And I would even be fine with a government subsidy to pay for the higher premium someone in your situation would probably have to pay.

I am not fine with the government creating a public insurance agency, which is what Obama's plan does.

If you don't like how the insurance companies handle health care, take a look at how government handles medicare. Compare and contrast the per patient costs and the care recieved.

758 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:54:01pm

re: #754 Salamantis

And people are a lot more generous than you give them credit. You don't have to be a special case, you just have to be in great need and let people know.

759 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:54:21pm

re: #757 NukeAtomrod

I would be fine with a simple regulation requiring an insurance company to cover pre-existing conditions. And I would even be fine with a government subsidy to pay for the higher premium someone in your situation would probably have to pay.

I am not fine with the government creating a public insurance agency, which is what Obama's plan does.

If you don't like how the insurance companies handle health care, take a look at how government handles medicare. Compare and contrast the per patient costs and the care recieved.

At this point, I don't care WHO handles my surgery, as long as SOMEONE does.

Under the present situation, there is no provision for ANYONE to do so, until I once again stumble into the ER screaming.

760 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 11:55:04pm

re: #755 nonic

We disagree.

About what, exactly?

My civility? I used the abbreviation "WTF". That's not uncivil, that's barely even "salty" language.

Terry's brain? It was dead, this was proven.

About who get's to decide? She was not a child, but a married adult. Any life decisions, including "end of life" decisions, are strictly between her and her husband. Her parents have no right to have any say in the matter.

About the "ghoul" label for the disgusting opportunists who exploited the situation for political gain? Well, if you can't see those scum for what they are, there is nothing I can say to help you see the truth of their character.

761 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:02:12am

re: #717 Salamantis

It's when a pocket develops in your lower colon in which food can collect and turn septic. The swelling this causes seals the pocket away from the rest of the colon, and the pus pressure builds until it blows a hole in the colon wall, infecting your entire lower GI tract. I only became aware of it when the damn thing blew; then the sudden pain was excruciatingly intense. They had me on the max dose of IV morphine for 4 days. And since there was a big chance I wouldn't make it through, they had me fill out a living will as soon as I woke up from surgery.

That pocket's still there. And until I get it surgically removed, I am at substantial risk of a future attack.

Holy shit dude. And to think, before I knew what Diverticulitis really was, I once asked you if it hurt as much as food poisoning. Talk about ignorant.

762 Salamantis  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:07:15am

re: #761 Slumbering Behemoth

Holy shit dude. And to think, before I knew what Diverticulitis really was, I once asked you if it hurt as much as food poisoning. Talk about ignorant.

It was sheer and inexpressible agony. They immediately triaged me into the back after I collapsed doubled over on the floor.

The doctor there asked me to rate my pain on a scale of 1 to 10. I tried to say 10, but all that came out was AAAHHH!

He said "Okay, 10; gotcha."

763 nonic  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:12:24am

re: #760 Slumbering Behemoth

The Terry Schiavo story is now more than 4 years old. People have their opinions and are probably pretty set in them. I have mine. You have yours. We are both entitled. We disagree, and I prefer to leave it at that.

764 Salamantis  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:13:11am

Here's the lucky thing; they misdiagnosed me as suffering from a ruptured appendix, and immediately rushed me into surgery. But once the surgeon got in there, he discovered that what was wrong with me was different, and much, MUCH worse.

Had he not been skilled enough to radically change surgical plans in midstream, I wouldn't be here posting today. I really lucked out that he happened to be on duty that night.

765 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:18:23am

re: #763 nonic

We disagree, and I prefer to leave it at that.

Fair enough, but I offered opinions on a few aspects of the situation, so I still don't know exactly what it is we disagree on because you won't specify. I guess I never will.

I suppose I'll learn to live with that.

766 retief_99  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:19:23am

re: #584 iceweasel

Thank you, you obviously know what is good for me, but I think I will keep reading whatever I want to.

767 nonic  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:19:41am

re: #765 Slumbering Behemoth

I suppose I'll learn to live with that.

LOL. You'll just have to be brave. :-)
Good night.

768 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:26:56am

re: #767 nonic

I'll find a way to soldier on, but the next few weeks are going to be difficult. Hopefully I will find a way to cope.

769 Salamantis  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:30:02am

re: #768 Slumbering Behemoth

I'll find a way to soldier on, but the next few weeks are going to be difficult. Hopefully I will find a way to cope.

If it helps to console you, SleepyB, Charles agrees with you, and posted several threads on the issue:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I myself am a Floridian, and what I saw the socon circus do here with their cynical political manipulation of the Schiavo case thoroughly disgusted me.

770 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:34:15am

re: #766 retief_99

WND pimps a lot of batshit crazy, fear mongering, conspiracy theorist garbage.

Suggesting one shouldn't take that site seriously is like suggesting one shouldn't intravenously inject a grizzly bear with a kilo of military grade meth, and then try to have sex with it.

It's not really an issue of anyone presuming to know "what is good for you", it's just sound advice.

771 Syrah  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:44:46am

re: #766 retief_99

Thank you, you obviously know what is good for me, but I think I will keep reading whatever I want to.

Read what ever you like.

iceweasel and Slumbering Behemoth both bring up a point you should consider.

WND may be amusing, it may even on occasion be interesting, but it is not authoritative. Not in the least.

It is at best, an arms-length source, best left out of a discussion especially if no better credible source can be found to corroborate.

772 Salamantis  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:45:00am

What I can't wrap my mind around is the mindset of people who would move political heaven and earth to keep Terri Schiavo's soul-cored shell alive, yet wouldn't lift a finger for me, a living, internet-posting person, and would be quite willing to let me die for want of a very doable surgery.

Maybe the medical necessity for surgeries such as the one I require should be reframed as a right to life issue.

773 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 12:55:45am

re: #772 Salamantis

As I said to Realwest upthread: "It seems there are some who are ready to get enraged over imaginary "death panels" for one demographic, yet seem more than happy to advocate for their own style of "death panel" when it comes to another demographic."

Maybe the medical necessity for surgeries such as the one I require should be reframed as a right to life issue.

Oh, this could get very interesting Sal. I look forward to you using that tool in future debate.

774 Syrah  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 1:08:36am

re: #772 Salamantis

Maybe the medical necessity for surgeries such as the one I require should be reframed as a right to life issue.

Do you have any more of a right to compel others to pay for your surgery than you have to compel them to bring a child to term or to keep a vegetable hooked up to the feeding tubes?

(Your argument has strong emotional appeal but can breakdown on the nature of the power and the right to compel.)

775 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 1:16:05am

re: #774 Syrah

Your argument has strong emotional appeal but can breakdown on the nature of the power and the right to compel.

I thoroughly agree with your point here, but I think the argument, if used Socratically, might actually work to a certain degree.

776 Syrah  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 1:22:02am

re: #775 Slumbering Behemoth

I thoroughly agree with your point here, but I think the argument, if used Socratically, might actually work to a certain degree.

I think it is an argument with a powerful emotional appeal. Appeals to emotion can be very persuasive.

I may have things a little off but I think it might be an argument more to the liking of Aristophanes then it would be to Socrates.

777 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 1:33:27am

re: #776 Syrah

I may have things a little off but I think it might be an argument more to the liking of Aristophanes then it would be to Socrates.

Obviously, you know more about the art and history of debate then I do.

I used the term "Socraticaly" because I understood (perhaps inaccurately?) that one of his methods of debate was to feign ignorance with his questioning in such a way that he could get his debate opponent to invalidate their own position with their answers.

This is a style I've heard of in passing somewhere. Seriously, what I know of classical debating techniques couldn't even fill a eighth of an issue of Reader's Digest.

It seemed to me that Sal's argument could be used in such a way.

778 Syrah  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 1:34:52am

re: #777 Slumbering Behemoth

Obviously, you know more about the art and history of debate then I do.

I used the term "Socraticaly" because I understood (perhaps inaccurately?) that one of his methods of debate was to feign ignorance with his questioning in such a way that he could get his debate opponent to invalidate their own position with their answers.

This is a style I've heard of in passing somewhere. Seriously, what I know of classical debating techniques couldn't even fill a eighth of an issue of Reader's Digest.

It seemed to me that Sal's argument could be used in such a way.

In the method that you describe, Sal's argument would work well on many.

779 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 1:44:48am

re: #778 Syrah

Am I at least correct in attributing that technique to Socrates?

780 Syrah  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 1:59:53am

re: #779 Slumbering Behemoth

Am I at least correct in attributing that technique to Socrates?

Yes.

The difference between Socrates and Aristophanes was that Aristophanes was a master of the emotional argument.

In an interesting way, The Trial of Socrates and The Clouds give testament to the competing power of logic versus emotion. Sometimes, the emotional appeal works. Sometimes it doesn't.

Another important aspect of the Socratic method is asking the questions in a way that you know what answers you will get. Leading by asking. The other party may think that they are leading the discussion, but it is you, asking the questions, that is actually leading the discussion, at least, as long as you can keep your wits about you as you work the Socratic method. It is not easy. Actually, it is damned difficult.

781 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 2:07:46am

re: #780 Syrah

Thanks for the short lesson, it is appreciated. No sarc.

782 Salamantis  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 4:02:24am

re: #774 Syrah

Do you have any more of a right to compel others to pay for your surgery than you have to compel them to bring a child to term or to keep a vegetable hooked up to the feeding tubes?

(Your argument has strong emotional appeal but can breakdown on the nature of the power and the right to compel.)

There are significant differences.

Neither Terri Schiavo nor a fetus is capable of saying, like I am, Hell Yeah I wanna continue living. I possess the self-conscious awareness, which both of them lack, that allows me to say this. Pre-viability fetuses are possible future persons (possible, not potential, as fully a third of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, or miscarriages), not actual present persons, and Terri Schiavo’s personhood was irretrievably lost in the past, as her brain scans conclusively showed (the physical substrate brain was no longer capable of supporting it, and catastrophic brain deterioration such as hers is irreversible). Plus, it is not a matter of compelling another human being to serve as an incubator against her will, or denying a next of kin their legal right to make family medical decisions. It’s just a matter of having hospitals tell doctors that they don’t have to wait until the inevitable ER visit crisis arises before they perform verifiably lifesaving treatment on those who genuinely cannot afford it - treatment that is much more expensive and has much less of a chance of success if they have to wait until the crisis arrives. And to adopt this policy across the board, rather than on a PR tainted case-by-case basis, where the bottom line is whether or not its performance is likely to elicit sufficient public sympathy so that charitable contributions to the institution will exceed hospital costs.

It's basically the same principle under which governments evacuate willing people whose lives are endangered by impending natural disasters, without exercising favoritism. Except that in this case, the disaster is medical.

My case is much stronger than either of the examples proffered, and the differences are ones of essence rather than degree. Slippery slope arguments to the contrary fail.

783 DEnforcer  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 5:04:34am

Palin was not speaking about end of life counseling, the item that was removed from the legislation. So Congress is acting like they responded to the public, when they took out another benefit from the give-away program. Sure the euthanasia counseling issue loomed in people's minds. However, she was speaking about relative effectiveness panels that decide about QALY (quality adjusted life years) and deny treatment because the money could be better spent on others with a higher QALY score vs. cost. So the lack of treatment is a death sentence. This standard is used in many socialist health systems like NICE in the UK.

784 armaros  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 6:18:10am

It isn't about euthanasia.

To call what Palin said, euthanasia is misleading itself. She did not use that word.

It is about the government enticing doctors to hold "end of life discussions" periodically and according to bureaucratic directive, in which consideration is given to costs of care which may or may not be deemed as guaranteed to be successful in prolonging life.

What Palin remarked was that in the bill such provisions could be invoked and lead to biased advice from a physician should that physician act under government directives. In other words, people may feel pressured to elect not to embark on certain treatments which may be deemed expensive and effective at the outset. That is where the problem lies.

Elderly patients always discuss end of life issued with their doctor.
However under a single payer system, availability of a personal doctor or scheduling appointments may become difficult (especially for the elderly), hence the provision that they should occur. This was the good intention behind what can at the end become a morbid situation.

785 Neuron  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 6:25:32am

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes using Obama's own words says it all. Like when he said this (quote from Jonah Goldberg RCP 8/15/09).
In an interview with The New York Times last spring, he acknowledged that oldsters are a "huge driver of cost." The "chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health-care bill out here," Obama explained. Which is why he advocated an advisory panel of experts to offer "guidance" on end-of-life care and costs. But don't you dare call it a death panel.

But hey, as Obama has told us before, "just words."

786 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 6:42:14am

re: #785 Neuron

Seems more like this is an issue you would rather ignore than talk about, or allow anyone else to talk about rationally. Are you still at the age where you think you will live forever?

787 SGTTED  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 7:02:38am

ABC for "fact-checking" of Democrat policy proposals? Sorry, not a trust worthy source, IMHO. More like "cheerleaders for Obama".

788 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 8:11:46am

re: #743 Salamantis

and

re: #744 ladycatnip

#743
It's in the bill. There's a 2.5% penality on your income if you don't have insurance. There's also a penality on businesses. I read it. Just don't have time to give the page number.

Sal -- it is in the bill. I just looked it up.

Where to look:

Text of HR 3200
TITLE IV--AMENDMENTS TO INTERNAL REVENUE CODE OF 1986
Subtitle A--Shared ResponsibilityCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

PART 1--INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY
SEC. 401. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.

(a) In General- Subchapter A of chapter 1 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by adding at the end the following new part:

‘PART VIII--HEALTH CARE RELATED TAXES

‘subpart a. tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.

‘Subpart A--Tax on Individuals Without Acceptable Health Care Coverage

‘Sec. 59B. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.

(*NB - specifically)

‘(a) Tax Imposed- In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of--

‘(1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over
‘(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.

789 horse  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 8:25:56am

re: #516 Coracle


Both. I've seen it, and it is no plan. Don't worry. I already know you disagree.

They were indeed plans and a bill. The details of the bill get put in by the various committees who have jurisdiction over each area. That is how bills go from an initial 20 something pages to a thousand pages over the period of time they are worked on. Closing your eyes and wishing it is not doesn't change things. What's the next talking point on your memo?

790 Neuron  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 10:40:10am

re: #786 Naso Tang

No, not only do I know I won't live forever, I don't want to live forever. However, I don't want a government bureaucrat making that decision. I love freedom, it's just that simple.
As to your other charge I thought I was engaging in conversation?! However, I do admit to a bit of sarcasm, just part of my charm ;-)


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