This is one case where I'd support the ACLU, trying to stop it.
And quick, before the schools also have to teach a year of the Koran, a year of the Vedas, a year of the Gospel of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

Something tells me they aren't going to include discussions of the Apocrypha as sacred literature or the influence of Hellenism on the Christian world view.

If someone wants their kid to learn the bible, send the kid to Sunday school or private school.

I would be angry if public schools were allowed to teach the bible. For them to be required to do so, well, Charles' 4000-character limit does not permit me to type enough "WTFs" for me to express how I feel about that.

Oh come on, WTF?

I would not trust most public school teachers to moderate a discussion on religious literature with most high school students. Already this year in my children's school the non-denominational morning prayer group decided to deny my chidlren's friend a position as an office because they were concerned about her "sympatheic" statements towards my kids Mormon faith.

The kids are taking it in stride, they recognize they aren't the only people on earth dealing with bigotry and don't feel that this is a particular battle worth waging, but if this passes muster in Texas I can see the problem working its way into the classroom bit time. Many kids are not going to survive the impending religious wars unscathed.

I don't agree that the Bible should never be taught in a public school. As a foundational text of our western civilization, I think all students should be exposed to it, at least at the high school level, in a "Humanities" or "Western Civilization," or even an "Ancient History" class.

Somehow, I don't think that is what the proponents of this law had in mind though.

re: #7 Martinsmithy

Ancient History class?

The stupid, it burns...

I might find a course in Bible Studies appropriate if the course was conducted as an adjunct to language studies in Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Sanscrit, and Urdu. If the purpose of the course, however, is to convey the notion that one specific religious faith is THE TRUTH, I would be displeased, to say the least.

If this class were about reading religious texts, I'd be all for it. Too many high school students are ignorant of world religions. But since this is a class for reading the "Bible" (Which translation, I wonder?), I say no way.

We can impart Western values without discussing religion in the classroom. And if we're going to discuss religion in the classroom, let's discuss all of them (or at least the top 25 major sects of them).

Okay, maybe I'm overreacting. Here's what the article says:

a Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum.

So maybe it would be enough to teach the kids that "the Bible is one of the most influential books ever written. Many historically important cultural and political movements were rooted in Biblical teachings."

I wouldn't have any problem with that. Does anyone have a link to the actual law so that we can see what it says?

You just won't believe what's on the final exam...

Here's a clause thrown in as a sop to 'fairness'.
Of course, no school district in the state is going to come up with a majority student and parent 'demand for such a course' unless it's the majority religion.

This section does not prohibit the board of trustees of
a school district from offering an elective course based on the
books of a religion other than Christianity. In determining whether
to offer such a course, the board may consider various factors,
including student and parent demand for such a course and the impact
such books have had on history and culture.

HB 1287

I hope they're using this text.

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh come on, WTF?

OK, wait for it:

Someone's going to point out that the establishment clause applies to congress.

Just wait.

re: #2 DaddyG

Something tells me they aren't going to include discussions of the Apocrypha as sacred literature or the influence of Hellenism on the Christian world view.

Not to mention the Nestorian viewpoint/heresy.

Will they still have time to teach the important subjects like how to put a condom on a cucumber? Or do they only teach that one in Montgomery County Maryland?

If this is a history class that discusses the Bible from a historical standpoint, I don't think that is a big deal.

Fundamentalist/Evangelists scare me. That it's gone this far in Texas is very disturbing.

re: #7 Martinsmithy

I don't agree that the Bible should never be taught in a public school. As a foundational text of our western civilization, I think all students should be exposed to it, at least at the high school level, in a "Humanities" or "Western Civilization," or even an "Ancient History" class.

Somehow, I don't think that is what the proponents of this law had in mind though.

Exposed to it is one thing, but a course of it, no. They're already exposed to it in the earlier grades in Social Studies where they get a brief overview of many religions. They can do individual reports on the religion of their choice--projects like that.

re: #8 medaura18586

Ancient History class?

9th and 12th grades usually have a survey of world history.

re: #19 Locker
Liberal/Socialists scare me.

My first instinct is that this probably isn't Constitutional but the law isn't being challenged. Where's the loophole?

If you taught the Bible legally (as a historical document of critical importance, as literature, as a document revealing aspects of millennia old culture, and completely free of dogma,) you would make most sects and religious groups angry. To do it any other way is patently unconstitutional.

Will Texas churches soon be required to teach algebra?

re: #22 rwdflynavy

Liberal/Socialists scare me.

Hey, Socialist is the new N word. Report for reducation Citizen

re: #8 medaura18586

When I was in high school, (admittedly a while ago) world history was divided into three courses, Ancient, Medieval, and Modern History. Ancient would fit the time frame.

When I was in college, our humanities class went from Ancient History through the Renaissance, and study of the Bible as a document part of our civilization was part of the first semester, along with study of Greek, Roman, and Medieval texts.

I think any study of Western Civilization in high school that omits the Bible is omitting a major source document.

The key is study of the Bible as literature and history, not theology.

re: #25 midwestgak

Will Texas churches soon be required to teach algebra?

How about evolution? That ought to go over real well!

re: #23 Killgore Trout

My first instinct is that this probably isn't Constitutional but the law isn't being challenged. Where's the loophole?

It's going to be challenged, just wait.

re: #18 rwdflynavy

Will they still have time to teach the important subjects like how to put a condom on a cucumber? Or do they only teach that one in Montgomery County Maryland?

If this is a history class that discusses the Bible from a historical standpoint, I don't think that is a big deal.

The issue as I seee it is that most teachers are not adept enough to moderate a discussion of the Bible as literature with school aged students (some of which see the Bible from a very dogmatic viewpoint). If the teacher feels the need to evangelize the classroom then "Katie bar the door"!

Warren Chisum is the legislator who's pushing this bill. He's been seen before in the news. What a charmer:

Apparently GOP Rep. Warren Chisum has circulated a memo which, "authored by Georgia lawmaker Ben Bridges, claims the theory of evolution is part of an anti-religious plot with roots in an ancient Jewish sect. … The memo he distributed links to a Web site (www.fixedearth.com) promoting the claim that the sun and rest of the universe revolve around a stationary Earth. The Web site’s diatribes against 'Talmud/Kabbala-based Judaism' also play on anti-Semitic stereotypes:

What kind of 'Jewish physics' is it that has garnered 26% of all the Nobel Prizes awarded to all the Physicists in the world when the total Jewish population is only one-forth of 1% of the world’s population? … The stated theological mission of Talmud/Kabbala-based Judaism is to destroy the credibility of Jesus and Bible-based Christianity."
[Link: www.austinchronicle.com...]

re: #12 Last Mohican

Okay, maybe I'm overreacting. Here's what the article says:

So maybe it would be enough to teach the kids that "the Bible is one of the most influential books ever written. Many historically important cultural and political movements were rooted in Biblical teachings."

I wouldn't have any problem with that. Does anyone have a link to the actual law so that we can see what it says?

Here's the text of the bill (HB 1287). The bill states that schools must offer an elective course, so kids won't be required to to take it.

I'm surprised some of these people aren't demanding that the only medical textbook medical schools should use is the Bible.

re: #7 Martinsmithy

Somehow, I don't think that is what the proponents of this law had in mind though.

Agree on both counts. Reading Western literature without some knowledge of the Bible text (new and old testaments) is a bit like studying medicine without an understanding of anatomy. So, this is probably a good thing in theory but will go deeply awry in application.

re: #25 midwestgak

Will Texas churches soon be required to teach algebra?

"thou shalt not find the value of x"

The purpose here, if you look into David Barton and his group of fanatics, is definitely to subvert the Constitution. Barton is trying to revise history to promote the falsehood that the founding fathers intended the US to be a "Christian state."

re: #29 Charles

It's going to be challenged, just wait.

I wonder if that's why the bill was passed in 2007, and set the start date for this school year - to allow for challenges beforehand.

*sigh* - why am I not surprised? I'm almost afraid to find out what's next.

re: #21 Dianna

9th and 12th grades usually have a survey of world history.

The implied question is how would Bible Studies fit with a course in Ancient History? That would be endorsing the historic veracity of the Bible, which is, well, wholly unsupported by historical records.

re: #33 Ward Cleaver

Here's the text of the bill (HB 1287). The bill states that schools must offer an elective course, so kids won't be required to to take it.

Kids aren't required to take it, but the schools ARE required to teach it.

re: #23 Killgore Trout

My first instinct is that this probably isn't Constitutional but the law isn't being challenged. Where's the loophole?

It's just that tiny but all-purpose loophole called ...

... Texas!

re: #35 Liechtentrager

Well put. The average Texas public high school teacher is undoubtedly not up to the challenge.

re: #29 Charles

It's going to be challenged, just wait.

Ah, I guess they have to wait until the curriculum is put in place before they can challenge it in court.

re: #14 jaunte

Thanks for posting that.

The wording of the law is a little confusing. The first part says that school districts may offer an elective course on the Bible and its influences on history and literature.

However, Section 2 requires that school districts provide teachers with resources to help them put together Bible courses, and Section 3 requires that every K-12 school district offer a Bible course as a required part of its curriculum.

Why want this law passed?
Aren't the churches doing their job?
Aren't parents doing their job?

/or is just a "wedge", to get the door open?

Ward Cleaver, you contend anything in my comment #40? Care to argue that the Bible is accepted as a historically authoritative source?

re: #43 Martinsmithy

Well put. The average Texas public high school teacher is undoubtedly not up to the challenge.

That's OK, I'm sure the statute specifies how many lashes you get for mmistakes.

re: #33 Ward Cleaver

Here's the text of the bill (HB 1287). The bill states that schools must offer an elective course, so kids won't be required to to take it.

Actually, that's not true. See my #45 above. It is required.

The wording is misleading. Perhaps intentionally so?

I'm so sick of new laws. I'm not sure what I can and can't do anymore.

re: #36 Killgore Trout

"thou shalt not find the value of x"

(Arrggh -- DON'T start that -- we're not over 100 comments yet)

Texas Freedom Network release:

Proposed legislation directing Texas public schools to offer elective Bible classes appears to favor the developers of a deeply flawed and controversial curriculum, the president of the Texas Freedom Network said today.

House Bill 1287 by state Rep. Warren Chisum makes the Bible the textbook for such courses, an approach favored by the North Carolina-based National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools (NCBCPS). That provision would eliminate competition from a nationally marketed textbook from the Bible Literacy Project, as well as other curricula. The provision is similar to controversial legislation the NCBCPS helped draft and win passage for in Georgia last year.

“Bible courses are a wonderful way to teach students about the importance of religion in history and literature,” Miller said. “But students deserve quality instructional materials that are based on the best scholarship, not an ideological or religious agenda. Yet Rep. Chisum’s bill appears to favor a curriculum that fails that test.

The Texas Freedom Network Education Fund has released two reports about public school Bible courses. The 2005 report revealed that the NCBCPS curriculum was plagued by shoddy research, plagiarism and a bias that favored one religious perspective Protestant fundamentalism over all others. Then in 2006, in the only study of its kind, the TFN Education Fund researched what every public school district in Texas teaches about the Bible.

The author of the reports, Dr. Mark Chancey, a biblical scholar at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, found numerous problems with Bible courses in Texas public schools, including:

* a failure to meet minimal standards for teacher qualifications and academic rigor;
* the promotion of certain religious beliefs over all others; and
* advocating ideological agendas hostile to religious freedom, science and public education itself.

[Link: www.tfn.org...]

re: #51 KenJen

I'm so sick of new laws. I'm not sure what I can and can't do anymore.

Read the Bible!
/

re: #32 jaunte

Warren Chisum is the legislator who's pushing this bill. He's been seen before in the news. What a charmer:

Back on the trail with you Chisum.

re: #8 medaura18586

Ancient History class?

The characters of Abraham and Moses are only historical if one accepts the Bible as a history book. There are no outside references to these people. Some of the myths in this book were pirated from the Legend of Gilgamesh and other works that pre-dete the OT. Thus it would be better to put this stuff in a course on superstition and fantasy perhaps in the Litterature department.

re: #41 Charles

Kids aren't required to take it, but the schools ARE required to teach it.

Section 3, subsection (a) states that the Bible course is part of a required curriculum.

I'm inclined to read that as meaning that the kids are required to take the course. But now that I think about it, maybe it just means that the school is required to offer the course.

re: #40 medaura18586

The implied question is how would Bible Studies fit with a course in Ancient History? That would be endorsing the historic veracity of the Bible, which is, well, wholly unsupported by historical records.

Then reading the Greek myths endorses their veracity?

The bible as a document isn't uninteresting, and it can make a very interesting jumping off point for discussions of things we've discovered about Ancient History.

re: #50 Last Mohican

Actually, that's not true. See my #45 above. It is required.

The wording is misleading. Perhaps intentionally so?

Definitely intentionally misleading. I got a kick out of this little clause:

Nothing in this statute is intended to violate any provision of the United States Constitution or federal law, the Texas Constitution or any state law, or any rules or guidelines provided by the United States Department of Education or the Texas Education Agency.

re: #56 Annar

The characters of Abraham and Moses are only historical if one accepts the Bible as a history book. There are no outside references to these people. Some of the myths in this book were pirated from the Legend of Gilgamesh and other works that pre-dete the OT. Thus it would be better to put this stuff in a course on superstition and fantasy perhaps in the Litterature department.

Exactly.

lol texas

re: #41 Charles

Kids aren't required to take it, but the schools ARE required to teach it.

Well, in some schools, they'll have plenty of takers, but in other schools, not so many. And the language in the bill is pretty watered-down:

A course offered under this section shall follow applicable law and all federal and state guidelines in maintaining religious neutrality and accommodating the diverse religious views, traditions, and perspectives of students in their school district. A course under this section shall not endorse, favor, or promote, or disfavor or show hostility toward, any particular religion or nonreligious faith or religious perspective. Nothing in this statute is intended to violate any provision of the United States Constitution or federal law, the Texas Constitution or any state law, or any rules or guidelines provided by the United States Department of Education or the Texas Education Agency.

A lot of educators probably read this and say, "What?"

The law "mandates all Texas public schools offer instruction in the literature and history of the Bible. ... Many protections were put in the law to ensure that the instruction would be 'objective, not from a particular point of view, and would neither promote nor disparage any religion.' "

Read the law at [Link: www.legis.state.tx.us...]

Would teaching the literature and history of The Book of the Dead (ancient Egyptian religion), the Vedas (earliest Hindu scriptures), the Koran (Islam's text), or the Vinaya Pitaka (a central Buddhist text), among other cultural documents, sound just as scarey?

re: #47 buzzsawmonkey That is the problem I see however. If they had required a schoolbook that included biblical texts as part of a more general discussion about ancient literature that would be acceptable. In this case they are dedicating an entire course to one particular religion (or group of religions). In my experience it is very difficult for a discussion about Christianity to remain non-sectarian in southern schools. The dominant Baptist and Evangelical culture is too intwined with the school kids discussions and world views to keep the discussion from going too far in that direction without a very sophisticated moderater.

re: #37 Charles

When I said "Ancient History," I didn't mean AMERICAN ancient history.

Teaching anything about the Bible in an American History class is an outrage. This country was founded by men who rejected theocracy and theocrats. It's outrageous for people like Barton (and they are, unfortunately, Legion) to claim otherwise.

"And they are legion" is, by the way, is a biblical phrase, from Mark 5:9.

re: #56 Annar

The characters of Abraham and Moses are only historical if one accepts the Bible as a history book. There are no outside references to these people. Some of the myths in this book were pirated from the Legend of Gilgamesh and other works that pre-dete the OT. Thus it would be better to put this stuff in a course on superstition and fantasy perhaps in the Litterature department.

It's the source of a lot of literature, that's for sure.

re: #36 Killgore Trout

"thou shalt not find the value of x"

Don't make me get out my holy hand grenade!

re: #59 Charles

Isn't that kind of like the way a 6year old will say something to the effect of "It wasn't my fault" when a parent walks into a room and has no idea that anything wrong has happened?

I'm not sure this is worth all the hyperventilating.

As for the Bible being a historically accurate book. Over the years archeology has continued to agree more and more with the Bible as it pertains to history. Google the Hittites.

re: #32 jaunte

Charles, please check the important information jaunte provided.

re: #64 nonic

It all depends on what happens in the classroom. So far the results have not been good, from either an educational or Constitutional perspective.

The author of the reports, Dr. Mark Chancey, a biblical scholar at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, found numerous problems with Bible courses in Texas public schools, including:

* a failure to meet minimal standards for teacher qualifications and academic rigor;
* the promotion of certain religious beliefs over all others; and
* advocating ideological agendas hostile to religious freedom, science and public education itself.[Link: www.tfn.org...]

re: #59 Charles

Nothing in this statute is intended to violate any provision of the United States Constitution or federal law, the Texas Constitution or any state law, or any rules or guidelines provided by the United States Department of Education or the Texas Education Agency.

You can trust me. I'm not like the other used-car salesmen.

re: #70 rwdflynavy

Google the Hittites

I saw them onstage the same night I saw the Rondells, The Four Tops and Little Richard

I desperately need more coffee.

re: #47 buzzsawmonkey

My senior year literature class in HS read the story of Job.
I have no problem with religious text being used as part of a curriculum, as long as it is not presented as indoctrination. Anymore, with so many people motivated to stealthily teach their religion, it may not be possible to do even this. It straddles that line, which is always a tenuous position.
What Texas is doing, is going way over that line.

re: #58 Dianna

Then reading the Greek myths endorses their veracity?

The bible as a document isn't uninteresting, and it can make a very interesting jumping off point for discussions of things we've discovered about Ancient History.

I beg to differ. I've taken Ancient History courses that very peripherally mention the contents of the Greek Pantheon. And their contents are taught not through reading Greek myths but merely paraphrasing them in condensed form. The reason such background needed to be supplanted was children's unfamiliarity with ancient Greek culture. In Texas, or pretty much everywhere in the U.S., the Bible basics are already known in popular culture.

All the mains events in the Bible, not only the obviously extraordinary ones such as the Garden of Eden, the Great Flood, or the parting of the Red Sea, but even the claim that Jews were ever slaves in Egypt, are unsupported by properly historical sources. So why confuse the children with tales? How can fiction be a good starting point for educating kids on ancient history?

Literature class, sure. Ancient History class, NO.

I demand equal time for teaching the Turtle Stack!

//

Seriously.

I'm as fundamental in my interpretation of the Bible as they come.

I don't want them being taught the Bible in public schools.

What I want out of public schools is fundamental understanding of the first principals of language, science, mathematics, history and civics. A foundation to build critical thinking skills. Then in the schools they can move on to religious texts as literature, comparative religion and the meaning of history and social and political sciences.

re: #72 jaunte

It all depends on what happens in the classroom.

Well, not to worry. The public schools don't seem to be able to teach kids how to read, count, or think -- so this will probably just wash over them, too, with no effect.

re: #76 KansasMom

My senior year literature class in HS read the story of Job.

There should be a law requiring HS Enlgish teachers to teach literature that isn't horribly depressing at least 50% of the time.

Some notes on the folks pushing the curriculum:
National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools

The Chicago Tribune Editorial Board, in an editorial published July 7, 2007, stated that "The folks at the National Council are right on one count: The Bible should be taught in public schools. But they shouldn't be the ones to do it." The editorial criticised the NCBCPS for not releasing the names of the authors of the curriculum and for "sloppy editing, factual errors and outright copying, word for word, from sources." The Editorial Board noted that "The National Council is not the only option school districts have. A competing curriculum (The Bible and Its Influence) offered by the Bible Literacy Project, a non-profit group, has been vetted, accepted and praised by a wide range of scholars, critics and education officials."

TIME Magazine, in the cover story of its April 2, 2007 issue, wrote that the curriculum is not "legally palatable ... Its spokespeople claim it is refining itself as it goes and its most recent edition, which came out last month, eliminates much literalist bias--but still devotes 18 lines to the blatantly unscientific notion that the earth is only 6,000 years old." By contrast, TIME stated that "[Public school Bible electives] should have a strong accompanying textbook on the model of (the Bible Literacy Project's) The Bible and Its Influence."[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #27 Martinsmithy

The key is study of the Bible as literature and not history, not or theology.

Fixed.

re: #81 jaunte

I like the Chicago Tribune's line:
"The folks at the National Council are right on one count: The Bible should be taught in public schools. But they shouldn't be the ones to do it."

From an editorial in The Daily Texan:

Richards compared the Legislature’s Bible-course bill to asking somebody to teach high school art history or math without giving that person having any legitimate art history or math experience. Teachers are certainly familiar with the Bible, and perhaps may know a good deal concerning Scripture — but that doesn’t give them the authority or expertise to lead a course that demands much more than attending Sunday school.

re: #70 rwdflynavy

I'm not sure this is worth all the hyperventilating.

As for the Bible being a historically accurate book. Over the years archeology has continued to agree more and more with the Bible as it pertains to history. Google the Hittites.

Where in the Bible is the URL?

re: #70 rwdflynavy

I'm not sure this is worth all the hyperventilating.

As for the Bible being a historically accurate book. Over the years archeology has continued to agree more and more with the Bible as it pertains to history. Google the Hittites.

This is absolutely false. I have been actively studying biblical archeology for almost 30 years, and where as the hebrew scriptures have had place names and occasionally people names confirmed by archeology, but over all, you statement is very far off base.

Please provide a link to this "fact?"

re: #80 DaddyG

There should be a law requiring HS Enlgish teachers to teach literature that isn't horribly depressing at least 50% of the time.

No kidding! We also read Heart of Darkness and Elie Weisel's Night.

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

Ever hear of this one buzz? I was lucky enough to find a copy at ebay, fierce bidding. The Golden Bough

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

Walter, you had asked me in a previous thread this morning about the fundamentalist Texas minister who was a Nirther and a FEMA nutcase. Did you still want his name?

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

We used a book of Greek myths which cribbed liberally from the Bulfinch/Enid Hamilton versions, ...

OT, as an adolescent boy, I read over and over about gray-eyed Athena.
Heh, I think I was trying to do a mental Pygmalion.

/then I discovered Annette Funicello

re: #29 Charles

It's going to be challenged, just wait.

I wonder why it wasn't challenged in 2007 when the law was passed.

Another critique of the curriculum:

The religion scholar [Mark A. Chancey, associate professor in the Department of Religious Studies at Southern Methodist University in Dallas] writes, “The overall impression the various editions convey is of an inability to differentiate between pseudoscience, urban legends, fringe theories, and mainstream scholarship as well as between faith claims and nonsectarian descriptions…. In short, students will leave this course with the understanding of the Bible apparently held by most members of the NCBCPS and with little awareness of views held by other religious groups or within the academic community.”

Chancey also scores the curriculum for distorting Thomas Jefferson’s views on church-state separation and failing to discuss James Madison’s thinking at all. The curriculum, he says, “provides little evidence of the robust discussions among the nation’s founders about the relationship of church and state…. Instead, the curriculum offers students a tendentious and at times misleading history implying that the separation of church and state is a modern aberration.

[Link: blog.au.org...]”

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

We used a book of Greek myths which cribbed liberally from the Bulfinch/Enid Hamilton versions, and a book which contained selected KJV versions of various Bible stories.

Not only was there no religious instruction attendant to this study--heck, getting high school freshmen to actually read the assignments and remember who did what was hard enough--but when the opportunity arose to do comparisons in a class paper between the flood stories of Deucalion, Noah, and Gilgamesh, the teacher had no problem with it.

I remember covering it briefly in that context too. However, a full semester devoted to the Bible as the sole course content goes way beyond that fine line. It has been my families experience that Kids and sometimes teachers in the Bible belt will not make that distinction.

I love the Bible as literature and as a sacred text and I have found that my children reading it at a young age were better off when it came to understanding everything from Shakespeare to Star Wars. It is my business to teach it to them at home.

re: #89 JHW

Ever hear of this one buzz? I was lucky enough to find a copy at ebay, fierce bidding. The Golden Bough

Wot, a first edition?

Can surely get others off Amazon, and LGF gets a cut.

re: #90 thedopefishlives

Walter, you had asked me in a previous thread this morning about the fundamentalist Texas minister who was a Nirther and a FEMA nutcase. Did you still want his name?

No I didn't.

re: #37 Charles

The purpose here, if you look into David Barton and his group of fanatics, is definitely to subvert the Constitution. Barton is trying to revise history to promote the falsehood that the founding fathers intended the US to be a "Christian state."

You can also see he's a leading member of the "Lieing for JaaayySSSUS like Alinsky club."

re: #40 medaura18586

The implied question is how would Bible Studies fit with a course in Ancient History? That would be endorsing the historic veracity of the Bible, which is, well, wholly unsupported by historical records.

That is a broad and sweeping statement that the bible is 'wholly unsupported by historical records'.

Coins have been found in Jerusalem that date back to certain Old Testament Kings. As well as many cities and archeological finds have been unearthed that, even though doesn't prove or disprove the 'Jesus' as 'Savior and King' aspect, do add validity in a historic context.

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

No I didn't.

Shoot. Then who was it? >_> I'm getting old.

re: #88 KansasMom

No kidding! We also read Heart of Darkness and Elie Weisel's Night.

I wish they had my kids read "Mans search for meaning" instead of night. But I can see where that was necessary to cover as a subject. My big beef is with making us read the Pearl complete with its descriptions of creeping insanity and culinating with a baby's head getting blown off by a shotgun blast. I didn't know until years later that Hemingway was an enteraining writer.

re: #92 JohnnyReb

I wonder why it wasn't challenged in 2007 when the law was passed.

They're probably holding off to see how it's going to be implemented and taught. The whole thing looks like a big mess. I'll bet this is keeping school districts' legal departments up at night. One thing is for sure - the lawyers will make money off of this.

re: #95 itellu3times

Yep, scored a first, but as you say, Amazon has newer, condensed editions. it's an extremely wide ranging survey of world mythology and the connections therein.

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

No I didn't.

I'd like to hear his name, to see if I recognize it.

re: #98 Oh no...Sand People!

That is a broad and sweeping statement that the bible is 'wholly unsupported by historical records'.

Coins have been found in Jerusalem that date back to certain Old Testament Kings. As well as many cities and archeological finds have been unearthed that, even though doesn't prove or disprove the 'Jesus' as 'Savior and King' aspect, do add validity in a historic context.

Coins with any mention of "kings" only go back to the Hasmonean period, starting at about 140 BCE. It is a bronze prutah. These Hasmonean rulers were not the same as the earlier kings of Israel. There are no ancient coins with biblical kings names on them.

Hrmmm ... there aren't quotes by the founding fathers supporting religious rule, so, what the hey, I'll just make some up...

/Lying hypocrites like Barton make little baby Jesus cry...

As an aside...

One of the things I always find amusing in regard to the usual hysteria about the insidious threat inherent in admitting in public schools that something like 90% of Americans believe in God and consider this a Christian country is the history of what terrible things actually did happen in this country before religion was shunted to the side.

I graduated from a public high school in 1963. For the 13 years I spent in public school, every single day classes started with a Bible reading and a group recitation of the "Lord's Prayer," aka the "Our Father."

Pretty disgusting, huh? Imagine the grotesque society that kind of "indoctrination" produced.

Well, it produced the Civil Right Movement, the Anti-War Movement, the Women's Rights Movement, and the Sexual Revolution including Legalized Abortion -- as well as the cultural "riches" of the 60's such a rock music and the drug culture.

Pretty threatening and oppressive stuff, that religion business is. Good thing we keep it out of the schools now. /

re: #99 buzzsawmonkey

Heh, when you mentioned "racier" works, I was reminded of Sir Richard Burton's "Arabian Nights".

re: #6 DaddyG

I would not trust most public school teachers to moderate a discussion on religious literature with most high school students. Already this year in my children's school the non-denominational morning prayer group decided to deny my chidlren's friend a position as an office because they were concerned about her "sympatheic" statements towards my kids Mormon faith.

The kids are taking it in stride, they recognize they aren't the only people on earth dealing with bigotry and don't feel that this is a particular battle worth waging, but if this passes muster in Texas I can see the problem working its way into the classroom bit time. Many kids are not going to survive the impending religious wars unscathed.

Daddy G, you mention of the woman's "sympathetic" statements toward Mormonism reminds me of an old quote from Garrison Keillor, who was brought up in the Lutheran Church.

Keillor said his church fired one of their pastors because "he was soft on Catholicism."

Pay no attention to the theocrat behind the curtain.
/

re: #77 medaura18586

You have a point, but think of this:

When people went out to the middle east to find evidence for Biblical stories, we learned a great deal about ancient Mesopotamian civilizations, much more than we knew before. Treat that as a starting point, and it becomes useful.

re: #7 Martinsmithy

I don't agree that the Bible should never be taught in a public school. As a foundational text of our western civilization, I think all students should be exposed to it, at least at the high school level, in a "Humanities" or "Western Civilization," or even an "Ancient History" class.

Somehow, I don't think that is what the proponents of this law had in mind though.

If you want to teach the Bible as "a foundational text of our western civilization", teach it in Aramaic. Let's also teach all the good stuff about slaughtering animals, and all that groovy old testament stuff. First comes the Bible, then the Koran, then...

re: #40 medaura18586

The implied question is how would Bible Studies fit with a course in Ancient History? That would be endorsing the historic veracity of the Bible, which is, well, wholly unsupported by historical records.

I disagree. One of the most interesting ways to teach about the Bible (which is very different from teaching the Bible) would be to cover what the archeological record does and does not support, the different translations of the Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and all that stuff. And all the academic arguments, too. If anything the kids would have a chance to learn that there is so much still not settled.

Reading the actual article, I find this pretty funny:

School officials said schools have not enforced the law because of confusion over the bill's wording and lack of state funding.

For now, each school district must find a way to fill the requirement before the seats are filled with students.

Translation: We got no curriculum, no money, Hey Kids this thing is called a Bible, read it tell me what you think.

re: #87 Walter L. NewtonYour text to link...

Here's a book on the subject of the Hittites to get you started. Bottom line, all archeologists of the 19th centurty thought the bible was wrong about there ever being such a group.

Then they found the Hittites.

re: #107 nonic

As an aside...

One of the things I always find amusing in regard to the usual hysteria about the insidious threat inherent in admitting in public schools that something like 90% of Americans believe in God and consider this a Christian country is the history of what terrible things actually did happen in this country before religion was shunted to the side.

I graduated from a public high school in 1963. For the 13 years I spent in public school, every single day classes started with a Bible reading and a group recitation of the "Lord's Prayer," aka the "Our Father."

Pretty disgusting, huh? Imagine the grotesque society that kind of "indoctrination" produced.

Well, it produced the Civil Right Movement, the Anti-War Movement, the Women's Rights Movement, and the Sexual Revolution including Legalized Abortion -- as well as the cultural "riches" of the 60's such a rock music and the drug culture.

Pretty threatening and oppressive stuff, that religion business is. Good thing we keep it out of the schools now. /

That's a really specious argument. You could just as easily claim that it was only when people began to renounce the more fundamental forms of religion that those kinds of reforms could take place.

You're not going to try to argue that Baptists or Pentecostals are forces for tolerance, are you?

Here's David Barton again:

The Journal of Law and Education in 2003 said the course "suffers from a number of constitutional infirmities" and "fails to present the Bible in the objective manner required."

The journal said that even supplementary materials were heavily slanted toward sectarian organizations; 83 percent of the books and articles recommended had strong ties to sectarian organizations, 60 percent had ties to Protestant organizations, and 53 percent had ties to conservative Protestant organizations, it said.

Among those included are books by David Barton, on the council's advisory board and the vice chairman of the Texas Republican Party, who favors "biblical inerrancy," said William Martin, a Rice University historian and the author of the book "With God on Our Side: The Rise of the Religious Right in America."

Ms. Ridenour said the course was revised six months ago.But the freedom network's study concludes that the curriculum's section on science teaches creationism with no mention of evolution.

The course's broad statements about the Bible being the blueprint for the nation are askew, said Mr. Haynes of the Freedom Forum, part of a nonpartisan ecumenical group promoting the Bible Literacy Project textbook. "If the Bible is a blueprint for the Constitution," he said, "I guess they haven't read it," referring to the Constitution.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

re: #112 Dianna

Your post also reminds me of "The Illiad", treated strictly as a myth until Schliemann found and excavated Troy.

re: #113 SFGoth Announcement: "If any of the 4H students are in posession of an unblemished goat or lamb please contact the Old Testament club about their upcoming activity night."

re: #89 JHW

Ever hear of this one buzz? I was lucky enough to find a copy at ebay, fierce bidding. The Golden Bough

Oh, my! You mean people are still reading that?

I still don't understand what was going on in that sacred oak grove!

re: #107 nonic

I updinged that because of the facts you mentioned, not because of the opinion in the closing sentence.

I graduated in '61 (having been to a WIDE range of schools as a service brat) and religion was much more in evidence back then. Still, it didn't "seem" to have had much of an influence as time wore on.

/just sayin'

re: #115 rwdflynavy

Your text to link...

Here's a book on the subject of the Hittites to get you started. Bottom line, all archeologists of the 19th centurty thought the bible was wrong about there ever being such a group.

Then they found the Hittites.

You did not answer my question, nor address my comment. I know about the Hitties, they have nothing to do with what I asked you.

The bottom line is you stated "Over the years archeology has continued to agree more and more with the Bible as it pertains to history."

That's not true.

I wonder if David Icke or Alex Jones links to these idiots or if they link to the former two.

re: #120 Dianna

Oh, my! You mean people are still reading that?

I still don't understand what was going on in that sacred oak grove!

I didn't get it either, but I think its main focus is making connections from the widest variety of cultures.

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

Coins with any mention of "kings" only go back to the Hasmonean period, starting at about 140 BCE. It is a bronze prutah. These Hasmonean rulers were not the same as the earlier kings of Israel. There are no ancient coins with biblical kings names on them.

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

Not as old as 140 BC(E) but working towards it.

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

It is the most remarkable find since excavations in the heart of this 3,000-year-old capital of ancient Israel began 140 years ago: a tiny clay seal impression also known as a bulla or stamp, discovered near the ruins of what has been identified as King David's palace and bearing the name of an influential courtier mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.

"It is not very often that archaeologists have surprises that bring them so close to the reality of the biblical text," said Eilat Mazar, whose pinpoint dig in a relatively small site this summer led her to a clay bulla whose ancient Hebrew script identifies its owner as Gedalyahu ben Pashhur.

[Link: www.cbn.com...]

Still modern at 66-67 AD though..

/But so far I have not found as yet anything ealier than Walter's. So as it stands I must recant and say that the coins are more leaning to New Testament times.

re: #66 Martinsmithy

When I said "Ancient History," I didn't mean AMERICAN ancient history.

Teaching anything about the Bible in an American History class is an outrage...

Well I'm confused. First you say upthread, "I think any study of Western Civilization in high school that omits the Bible is omitting a major source document". Then you say the above. Which do you think is correct? Both cannot be correct.

RE: # 77 Medaura18586

There is a lot of geological/archaelogical evidence for the Great Flood being the flooding of the Black Sea Basin.

As for teaching the Bible, Aesop, Greek Myth etc. It would be nice if the college kids had some basics in the traditional classics (of which the Bible is one) 'cause they are completely unprepared for Western Civ. I or II.

re: #107 nonic

Oh... let's expand this using your reasoning. You state things went down hill after religion was shunted to the side. So, to you, the lack of religion was causal. You must also take the converse, all of the improvements gained (i.e. civil rights, technology, increased life expectancy, etc...) are due to the LACK of religion. Specious is as specious does.

Over the years archaology and science have influenced the way we understand the Bible along with the rest of creation. Other than that the jury is still out on who is "right" about their cosmology.

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

William Ramsey and William Albright started their archeological careers as atheists. Any idea how they ended up? As Christians based on their findings. So why is that?

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

This is absolutely false. I have been actively studying biblical archeology for almost 30 years, and where as the hebrew scriptures have had place names and occasionally people names confirmed by archeology, but over all, you statement is very far off base.

Please provide a link to this "fact?"

so, you believe that when the bible references certain nations or people (viewing the bible purely historically), it is fabricated?

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

You did not answer my question, nor address my comment. I know about the Hitties, they have nothing to do with what I asked you.

The bottom line is you stated "Over the years archeology has continued to agree more and more with the Bible as it pertains to history."

That's not true.

Everybody knows there was no such thing as a rainbows till Noah came around..
The Bible makes a good scientific text also..
/
*wink* Good Afternoon Walter..

re: #116 Charles

That's a really specious argument. You could just as easily claim that it was only when people began to renounce the more fundamental forms of religion that those kinds of reforms could take place.

You're not going to try to argue that Baptists or Pentecostals are forces for tolerance, are you?

Good point, but see my #121, which comes at it from a different angle.
My suspicion is that, to many kids, the prayers (and Pledge of Allegiance) were rote exercises. Other things, like the popular culture of the day, had a much more profound influence on young minds.

/that's NOT saying religion, or patriotism, doesn't matter

re: #50 Last Mohican

re: #33 Ward Cleaver

Here's the text of the bill (HB 1287). The bill states that schools must offer an elective course, so kids won't be required to to take it.

Actually, that's not true. See my #45 above. It is required.

The wording is misleading. Perhaps intentionally so?

Actually, it is true. The bill states, as you say, that the schools must offer the course as an elective. That doesn't mean the kids will be required to take it. In fact, the bill also says that if fewer than 15 kids sign up, the school isn't required to continue to offer the course for that semester.

We haven't even been able to keep the "who is more correct about the Bible" discussions out of this thread. What makes the Texas school board think that a room full of hormonal high schoolers and a Literature major with an Ed. degree and 5 years classroom experience can handle the discussion any better?

re: #107 nonic

Well, it produced the Civil Right Movement, the Anti-War Movement, the Women's Rights Movement, and the Sexual Revolution including Legalized Abortion...

Oh, now I get it. You think all of those things are BAD. Including the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement.

Ooohkay.

re: #118 JHW

Your post also reminds me of "The Illiad", treated strictly as a myth until Schliemann found and excavated Troy.

I thought of it, too, but decided it wandered too far afield.

Has anyone mentioned C.A.I.R. yet?

re: #125 JHW

I didn't get it either, but I think its main focus is making connections from the widest variety of cultures.

It does, and I keep it for reference.

re: #140 MandyManners

You just did ;)

re: #134 HoosierHoops

Everybody knows there was no such thing as a rainbows till Noah came around..
The Bible makes a good scientific text also..
/
*wink* Good Afternoon Walter..

Noah was gay?
/

I hope the ACLU forces them - not to stop! - but to offer Koran classes, too.

LOUC

Here's a handy reference for some other information that should probably be taught in schools.
A List Of Fallacious Arguments

Hrmm according to some Barton's shared stage with Holocaust deniers

Much in the same way that anti separation of church and state leader David Barton is seeking to rewrite history, the PROTOCOLS OF ZION and Holocaust deniers are doing the same thing. Barton had led conferences sharing time with Holocaust deniers on the program.(18) Barton is the key head of the anti separation concept among the Religious Right.

18. David Cantor, THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT, Anti-Defamation League, N.Y., N.Y., 1994, pg. 55.

Anyone near a library who can check this out?

re: #135 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Good point, but see my #121, which comes at it from a different angle.
My suspicion is that, to many kids, the prayers (and Pledge of Allegiance) were rote exercises. Other things, like the popular culture of the day, had a much more profound influence on young minds.

/that's NOT saying religion, or patriotism, doesn't matter

The amount of affection a child receives from their father at a young age is a strong predictor of if they will adopt their parents value systems. Indoctrination plays a lesser role.

I hold my kids on my lap when I read the scriptures to them. I don't take chances. ;-)

re: #136 Lynn B.

Actually, it is true. The bill states, as you say, that the schools must offer the course as an elective. That doesn't mean the kids will be required to take it. In fact, the bill also says that if fewer than 15 kids sign up, the school isn't required to continue to offer the course for that semester.

Confusion reigns!

You just know Hoopie-the-shit-slinging monkey and his buddies are looking for a chance to force a school system to teach the Koran.

re: #146 Thanos

Hrmm according to some Barton's shared stage with Holocaust deniers

18. David Cantor, THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT, Anti-Defamation League, N.Y., N.Y., 1994, pg. 55.

Anyone near a library who can check this out?

Barton has also spoken at two meetings of the Christian Identity neo-Nazi group. When exposed, he claimed that he "didn't know" they were neo-Nazis.

re: #107 nonic

Let me see if I understand your point.

You're saying that Christianity should be forced on kids in public schools, because most Americans are Christian and believe that America is a Christian country. As evidence of the acceptability of mandatory Christianity in public schools, you cite the fact that, historically, mandatory Christianity in public schools did not prevent the rise of certain immoral anti-Christian movements such as the Civil Rights movement, the Women's Equality movement, and (gasp!) rock and roll music.

Did I get that right?

The point here (at least my point) is that teachers have quite a lot of influence over their students. They can cause the student to rethink things the parents may not want rethought without the benefit of parental guidance. Remember that video of the NC teacher who browbeat the student for supporting McCain (and then denied it)? It doesn't matter if the subject is religion or politics or sex. It's not right for a class to start forming bullying groups against the minority viewpoint, all under the supervision of a teacher who supports the majority.

I hate to say it but, I'm looking forward to the fist set of Muslim parents who raise hell about this.

re: #131 rwdflynavy

William Ramsey and William Albright started their archeological careers as atheists. Any idea how they ended up? As Christians based on their findings. So why is that?

Ramsey and Albright both tried to fit archeology into the bible, which is not scientific at all. And both were wrong many more times than they were correct.

Modern biblical archeology does the archeological science first, and if it turns out that there is a fit that will enhance the biblical record, than it is considered.

And on your question, what does their faith have to do with the science? I know scientist that believe in UFO's.

re: #150 Charles

Ah, the old Spencer-Geller defense...

re: #149 MandyManners

I truly think that Barton et al would APPROVE of including the Koran. Remember, their stated end goal/target is to displace materialism for spiritualism. They'll fight the secularists today and the muslims later.

re: #138 Charles

Oh, now I get it. You think all of those things are BAD. Including the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement.

Don't forget rock music. That was on the list too.

As a person of the Jewish faith, I have to ask, where's my share of the world? Aparrently, my people are involved in some nepharious plot to rule the world, but they seem to have left me out of it. Here I am, stuck working each day at an actual career/job/rat race, what have you, and all the while, I could be lounging and enjoying the life Riley. (I mean no offense to my Irish friends.) Those wildly creative evil Jews, wrote the Bible beginning 4500 years ago, knowing that in the 1800's, Darwin would develop a theory, which would be proven beyond any reasonable doubt by almost every other field of science, in order to destroy a religious belief system which would not exist until 2500 years later. That's the argument right? I mean, its not more complicated than that?

Good people of Texas, I implore you, quit ruining your children's chance at a decent education, and throw these idiots out. I understand that you don't want the socialists in charge either, but there has to be a middle ground.

OT, sorry, and drive by, but--

Tom DeLay going to be on Dancing With the Stars?

What. The. Hell.

...the memo he distributed links to a Web site (www.fixedearth.com) promoting the claim that the sun and rest of the universe revolve around a stationary Earth.

Wow! That is weapons grade stupid, there.

The Web site’s diatribes against ‘Talmud/Kabbala-based Judaism’ also play on anti-Semitic stereotypes:

What kind of ‘Jewish physics’ is it that has garnered 26% of all the Nobel Prizes awarded to all the Physicists in the world when the total Jewish population is only one-forth of 1% of the world’s population? ... The stated theological mission of Talmud/Kabbala-based Judaism is to destroy the credibility of Jesus and Bible-based Christianity.”

I'd say those are bloody smart Jewish physicists! That's what kind they are.

This is the kind of shit that keeps Democrats in office and me from getting work done.

re: #157 Dan G.

I truly think that Barton et al would APPROVE of including the Koran. Remember, their stated end goal/target is to displace materialism for spiritualism. They'll fight the secularists today and the muslims later.

I don't see these folks agreeing one whit with Islam.

re: #158 Last Mohican

Elvis's pelvis of blasphemy!
/

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

Ramsey and Albright both tried to fit archeology into the bible, which is not scientific at all. And both were wrong many more times than they were correct.

Modern biblical archeology does the archeological science first, and if it turns out that there is a fit that will enhance the biblical record, than it is considered.

And on your question, what does their faith have to do with the science? I know scientist that believe in UFO's.

But they started out as Atheists. They were actively trying to disprove the bible, not shoehorn their findings into the bible.

re: #133 Charpete67

so, you believe that when the bible references certain nations or people (viewing the bible purely historically), it is fabricated?

Never said that did I. The bible is not a history book, and you cannot use the bible to do archeology. There is archeology that bears out biblical record, but modern biblical archeology does not try to make the archeology fit the bible.

re: #160 flyovercountry

As a person of the Jewish faith, I have to ask, where's my share of the world? Aparrently, my people are involved in some nepharious plot to rule the world, but they seem to have left me out of it. Here I am, stuck working each day at an actual career/job/rat race, what have you, and all the while, I could be lounging and enjoying the life Riley. (I mean no offense to my Irish friends.) Those wildly creative evil Jews, wrote the Bible beginning 4500 years ago, knowing that in the 1800's, Darwin would develop a theory, which would be proven beyond any reasonable doubt by almost every other field of science, in order to destroy a religious belief system which would not exist until 2500 years later. That's the argument right? I mean, its not more complicated than that?

Good people of Texas, I implore you, quit ruining your children's chance at a decent education, and throw these idiots out. I understand that you don't want the socialists in charge either, but there has to be a middle ground.

You need to fill out the appropriate paper work.

There's a small office on Ben-Yehuda street in J-m.

It takes about 5 years before you start getting the checks.

Somehow, they find you.

re: #107 nonic

Sure is pretty disgusting. Especially if you're a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist or agnostic eh? But me thinks all you good "Christian folks" don't give a rat's ass about the rest of us. You SAY you do, but you don't act like it.

re: #147 DaddyG

The amount of affection a child receives from their father at a young age is a strong predictor of if they will adopt their parents value systems. Indoctrination plays a lesser role.

I hold my kids on my lap when I read the scriptures to them. I don't take chances. ;-)

A very loud HEH!
And a solid up-ding.

re: #154 MandyManners

I hate to say it but, I'm looking forward to the fist set of Muslim parents who raise hell about this.

The fist set and the first set.

re: #91 pre-Boomer Marine brat

OT, as an adolescent boy, I read over and over about gray-eyed Athena.
Heh, I think I was trying to do a mental Pygmalion.

/then I discovered Annette Funicello

I hear you. Annette Funicello was also a major influence on me, as a pubertal youth. But then I saw the movie "In Search of the Castaways" with Hayley Mills, and my lust kicked into a higher gear than I had yet to imagine.

re: #146 Thanos

Hrmm according to some Barton's shared stage with Holocaust deniers

18. David Cantor, THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT, Anti-Defamation League, N.Y., N.Y., 1994, pg. 55.

Anyone near a library who can check this out?

Amazon has it, but doesn't allow you to search. Darn.

re: #164 MandyManners

Not agreeing with them, just tolerating them for the interim.

re: #159 buzzsawmonkey

Abaya a drink when that happens.

And a pack of unfiltered Camels, please.

re: #134 HoosierHoops

Everybody knows there was no such thing as a rainbows till Noah came around..
The Bible makes a good scientific text also..
/
*wink* Good Afternoon Walter..

Did somebody mention rainbows?

Oh Noes.. ITZ TOCSIK KEMTRALE RAINBOWZ!

re: #138 Charles

Oh, now I get it. You think all of those things are BAD. Including the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement.

Ooohkay.

I didn't read her post that way AT ALL. I read her to say that of the the U.S. at the time, which included things like school prayer, produced them. All of them, from good (civil rights) to bad (drug culture)

re: #148 Ward Cleaver

Confusion reigns!

Yeah, somehow I get the feeling that's deliberate.

re: #116 Charles

That's a really specious argument. You could just as easily claim that it was only when people began to renounce the more fundamental forms of religion that those kinds of reforms could take place.

You're not going to try to argue that Baptists or Pentecostals are forces for tolerance, are you?

No. My feeling is that it really doesn't matter very much one way or the other. The general culture has much more impact on kids than anything they're taught in school. Most of them don't pay any attention to anything in school, anyway, and when they do, their instinct is to rebel against it, whatever it is. I say that with some experience as a teacher.

Also, I raised 5 kids, sent them all to Catholic school -- for the better education, not the religion. And a good thing that I didn't care about the religion part, because all five of them came out at the end of all those expensive years agnostic or atheist! LOL

What I said in #107 wasn't an argument --- certainly not an argument for religion in schools. It was just an observation that I find interesting, which is why I labelled it "an aside."

re: #171 Silvergirl

The fist set and the first set.

I'm sure the latter will shake their former.

re: #169 American Sabra

Sure is pretty disgusting. Especially if you're a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist or agnostic eh? But me thinks all you good "Christian folks" don't give a rat's ass about the rest of us. You SAY you do, but you don't act like it.

You're so oppressed.

re: #154 MandyManners

I hate to say it but, I'm looking forward to the fist set of Muslim parents who raise hell about this.

Only the husband will be allowed to raise hell. The wife will be three steps behind, silent in her burka.

Shoes with velcro straps were invented for these geniuses I work with.
Give me strength...

re: #151 buzzsawmonkey

For what it's worth, Talmudic tradition holds that he was raped and/or castrated while drunk.

They couldn't just write on him with markers like normal people do?
/

re: #172 ShanghaiEd

I hear you. Annette Funicello was also a major influence on me, as a pubertal youth. But then I saw the movie "In Search of the Castaways" with Hayley Mills, and my lust kicked into a higher gear than I had yet to imagine.

All I've got to say, and being 41, I'm the right age to remember -- Bernadette Peters.

re: #157 Dan G.

And that's not going to work out very well, either.

re: #161 iceweasel

OT, sorry, and drive by, but--

Tom DeLay going to be on Dancing With the Stars?

What. The. Hell.

That's Tom "Twinkletoes" DeLay to you.

re: #174 Dan G.

Not agreeing with them, just tolerating them for the interim.

I still don't see it.

Well, DI has some ties with that Turkish fellow, Adnan Oktar.

re: #166 rwdflynavy

But they started out as Atheists. They were actively trying to disprove the bible, not shoehorn their findings into the bible.

Look, there is not enough room here to go into the whole Albright and Ramsey history. If you don't want to take my word for it, then do some research. I will assure you that these two people, while look at as pioneers in the field of biblical archeology, they were also proven to be very lacking in their methods.

This doesn't take anything away from what they started, but archeology has corrected their mistakes over and over. It's like all good science, there is constant refinement of the science.

If you stop at Ramsey and Albright, then you have closed your mind to any modern science.

They believed because they thought they proved something. Over the years, after their deaths, they have been proven wrong more times than right. It's very simple.

Does that make sense?

re: #186 Dianna

I hope not.

re: #177 wahabicorridor

I didn't read her post that way AT ALL. I read her to say that of the the U.S. at the time, which included things like school prayer, produced them. All of them, from good (civil rights) to bad (drug culture)

We NEVER had school prayer in public school. I was born in 62. We said the Pledge and sang 2 or 3 patriotic songs, the National Anthem always and then a couple others (i.e. This Land is Your Land).

We had the holidays of which Christmas took center stage, plus the Dreidel song... but other than that, Christianity was not in any of my schools.

re: #172 ShanghaiEd

I hear you. Annette Funicello was also a major influence on me, as a pubertal youth. But then I saw the movie "In Search of the Castaways" with Hayley Mills, and my lust kicked into a higher gear than I had yet to imagine.

But as a grown man, I'd rather be loved by a gray-eyed Athena.

/classical allusions ... ... ... (and maybe illusions, too, whotthell)

re: #182 rwdflynavy

Only the husband will be allowed to raise hell. The wife will be three steps behind, silent in her burka.

Maybe. Maybe not.

re: #179 nonic

One problem with instruction like this, just like school bible clubs, is that it makes it obvious to students who is "different". And kids can be very cruel to those who are different.
And even if they are trying to be helpful, they can be harmful, like if they have been taught non-Christians are going to Hell, and they try to "save" their friends.

re: #162 Kenneth

I'd say those are bloody smart Jewish physicists! That's what kind they are.

Shiplord Kirel linked that site a couple years ago! I read it and shrieked with laughter.

re: #169 American Sabra

Sure is pretty disgusting. Especially if you're a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist or agnostic eh? But me thinks all you good "Christian folks" don't give a rat's ass about the rest of us. You SAY you do, but you don't act like it.

nonic's post did not call for that sort of nasty reaction.

Come on Seymore...Feed Meee!

Explorers Discover Giant Rat-Eating Plant, Name it After Famed Scientist

re: #151 buzzsawmonkey

For what it's worth, Talmudic tradition holds that he was raped and/or castrated while drunk.

Just another reason or two why I don't drink...

re: #197 jorline

Come on Seymore...Feed Meee!

Explorers Discover Giant Rat-Eating Plant, Name it After Famed Scientist

A scientist named Audrey II?

Separation of church and state was a masterstroke by the founding fathers. The concept has always been challenged, will always be challenged, and must always be defended.

re: #121 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I updinged that because of the facts you mentioned, not because of the opinion in the closing sentence.

I graduated in '61 (having been to a WIDE range of schools as a service brat) and religion was much more in evidence back then. Still, it didn't "seem" to have had much of an influence as time wore on.

/just sayin'

That was my point. The reality wasn't nearly as "dangerous" as people today think it was. I only hope that today's multiculturalism and secularism has the same little effect that yesterday's religion did.

re: #191 American Sabra

We NEVER had school prayer in public school. I was born in 62

Then you're talking about a different period in time than is nonic.

re: #188 MandyManners

Philosophically, christianity and islam share a spiritual metaphysics. The DI'ers and their ilk have a broad, philosophical-level goal, and as such, would forgo "tactical"/low level differences for the "strategic"/high level similarities for the short term. Basically, I'm just trying to say that the argument that muslims are going to complain to be included is a very weak argument that has a very good chance of blowing up in one's face.

Here's a quote that's not made up:

"The Christian goal for the world is the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God's law." -- David Barton

re: #179 nonic

My feeling is that it really doesn't matter very much one way or the other.

I disagree strongly. I think it matters when fanatics try to influence what's taught to children. A recent study showed that what children learn at a young age definitely does have an impact on their beliefs later in life. Children who are taught creationism are much more likely to remain creationists even after being exposed to reality.

The people pushing this idiotic idea are fanatics, antisemites, and theocrats, and yeah, it really does matter.

re: #197 jorline

From your link: "... is so big that small rodents could be trapped inside and slowly dissolved by flesh-eating enzymes."

Not a good way to go. Someone call PETA!

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

Never said that did I. The bible is not a history book, and you cannot use the bible to do archeology. There is archeology that bears out biblical record, but modern biblical archeology does not try to make the archeology fit the bible.

okay...I've always understood that the bible (specifically the dead sea scrolls) was a good source of information for archeologist to aid with placing various finds with regards to time lines, etc.

re: #154 MandyManners

I hate to say it but, I'm looking forward to the fist set of Muslim parents who raise hell about this.

I hope they do. In this case they have every right to be upset.

re: #197 jorline

Come on Seymore...Feed Meee!

Explorers Discover Giant Rat-Eating Plant, Name it After Famed Scientist

I love to find other Little Shop of Horrors fans.

Do we not have Biblical scripture written on several buildings and monuments in the DC area? How about when documents from the founding fathers were signed "in the year of our Lord". Should we forbid these because of their religious terminology?

Everyone jumped all over Bill Maher with his recent comments about the general stupidity of the nation. He backed it up by saying that a majority of Americans cannot name a single branch of government, 1/4 of us couldn't name the country we fought in the Revolutionary War, 1/2 don't know that states have two Senators, 18% of Americans believe the Sun revolves around the Earth, and only 1/2 of Americans know that Judaism is an older religion that Christianity.

So, while we can rightly scoff and argue about Bible studies (with religious indoctrination being the obvious hidden agenda there) being forced into the public schools in Texas, we're in much bigger trouble than that. Add the 25% of us who don't think we actually landed on the Moon plus all of the other conspiracy weirdos and such growing in numbers, and let's face it, we're becoming a nation more ignorant and superstitious despite unbelievable access to information in ways that previous generations could have only dreamed about. We are dumbing down as a society, it's not even arguable in my opinion.

re: #205 Charles

I regret I only have one upding for that post.

I definitely don't think "Bible Studies" per se should be taught in public schools. At the same time, it's hard to teach the history of Western art and literature without some familiarity with Judeo-Christian concepts. It could be a tough call... were it not for the evident backing of would-be theocrats in this particular case.

re: #201 nonic

That was my point. The reality wasn't nearly as "dangerous" as people today think it was. I only hope that today's multiculturalism and secularism has the same little effect that yesterday's religion did.

I kind of suspected it was what you meant, though I wasn't sure, but (and I'm just sayin') the phrasing lent itself to other interpretations.

Why I Think the New Atheists are a Bloody Disaster

Every Friday, "Science and the Sacred" will feature an essay from a guest voice in the science and religion dialogue. This week's guest entry was written by Michael Ruse, author and philosopher of biology at Florida State University. His upcoming book "Science and Spirituality: Making Room for Faith in the Age of Science", published by Cambridge University Press, argues against the extremes of both creationism and "new atheism".

That the Creationists and fellow travelers, notably proponents of Intelligent Design Theory (IDT), would dislike my views I take as axiomatic. They should dislike my views for I spend my life fighting against these people. I say this notwithstanding the fact that, at the personal level, I have good and friendly relations with many of the leaders, including Duane T. Gish, Phillip Johnson, and Bill Dembski. I do not consider these people to be evil or motivated by money - anything but this latter, Gish could have made millions in the motivational speaking arena - although I deplore their beliefs and think them deeply dangerous. I will say however that I was disappointed that when Ben Stein tried to make me seem foolish in his movie Expelled, not one of them sprang publicly to my defense. Anyone who did not condemn that gross piece of distortion of the issues should feel really ashamed.

Which brings me to the point of what I want to say. I find myself in a peculiar position. In the past few years, we have seen the rise and growth of a group that the public sphere has labeled the "new atheists" - people who are aggressively pro-science, especially pro-Darwinism, and violently anti-religion of all kinds, especially Christianity but happy to include Islam and the rest. Actually the arguments are not that "new," but no matter - the publicity has been huge. Distinctive of this group, although well known to anyone who studies religion and the way in which sects divide and proliferate, is the fact that (with the possible exception of the Catholic Church) nothing incurs their wrath than those who are pro-science but who refuse to agree that all and every kind of religious belief is wrong, pernicious, and socially and personally dangerous. Recently, it has been the newly appointed director of the NIH, Francis Collins, who has been incurring their hatred. Given the man's scientific and managerial credentials - completing the HGP under budget and under time for a start - this is deplorable, if understandable since Collins is a devout Christian.

re: #210 Mr Chompers

Should the U.S. become a theocracy because of these evidences you cite?

re: #204 Thanos

"The Christian goal for the world is the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God's law." -- David Barton

World War V started today as the Tinsdalists launched an all out attack on the Rebublic of King James. The NIV nation has expressed neutrality but with their strong economic ties to the Campus Crusaders this expression of neutrality is doubted by most millitary analysts.

Reporters on the scene said the Savior of the World declined comment only noting, "and Jesus wept." /

re: #210 Mr Chompers

Do we not have Biblical scripture written on several buildings and monuments in the DC area? How about when documents from the founding fathers were signed "in the year of our Lord". Should we forbid these because of their religious terminology?

You se no difference in a document that states 'In The Year Of Our Lord, 19(whatever), to telling children that the ERATH is 6,000 years old, and that their ancestors walked with dinosuars?
No difference! Ya wanna stay with that?

Paul Helyer, Former Canadian Defense Minister and current Canadian lunatic, has revealed the Bush administration built a forward military base on the moon to prepare for intergalactic war with invading aliens.

re: #177 wahabicorridor

I didn't read her post that way AT ALL. I read her to say that of the the U.S. at the time, which included things like school prayer, produced them. All of them, from good (civil rights) to bad (drug culture)

I think the most charitable reading of nonic's argument is that mandatory Christianity in public schools should be permitted, because, in the 1950's and 1960's, the existence of mandatory Christian practice in many public schools did not prevent the emergence of the Civil Rights movement, legalized abortion, Women's rights, and drug use.

If we opponents of mandatory Bible studies were basing our opposition on the premise that studying the Bible might prevent the development of things like the Civil Rights movement or rock music, then this would be a valid counterargument. But I don't think that's the basis of our opposition.

Only the Fundies are going to celebrate this victory, short as it may be. Sneaky sonsabitches, anyway.

If my kid was still in school with this shit coming down the pike, I'd yank him out so fast their heads would spin. I'll be goddamned if anyone is going o shove their religious horseshit down my kid's throat in a public school - and that goes for any of the mainstream religions. It's against the law, for crying out loud.

They want to preach this stuff, they can do it in their own homes, or their own churches., as I sure they already do.

It's only the shot across the bow.

re: #205 Charles

I disagree strongly. I think it matters when fanatics try to influence what's taught to children. A recent study showed that what children learn at a young age definitely does have an impact on their beliefs later in life. Children who are taught creationism are much more likely to remain creationists even after being exposed to reality.

The people pushing this idiotic idea are fanatics, antisemites, and theocrats, and yeah, it really does matter.

Children who are taught anything are ususally likely to remain in that path. Unless taught by a tyrant, and then it can go either way. Adherent or rebel.

re: #177 wahabicorridor

I didn't read her post that way AT ALL. I read her to say that of the the U.S. at the time, which included things like school prayer, produced them. All of them, from good (civil rights) to bad (drug culture)

I read it the same way.

re: #205 Charles

A recent study showed that what children learn at a young age definitely does have an impact on their beliefs later in life.

Uh oh.

Obama is a SEKRIT MUZLIM!!!

re: #210 Mr Chompers

Do we not have Biblical scripture written on several buildings and monuments in the DC area? How about when documents from the founding fathers were signed "in the year of our Lord". Should we forbid these because of their religious terminology?

THAT'S NOT THE FUCKING POINT!

re: #196 Occasional Reader

nonic's post did not call for that sort of nasty reaction.

I'm sorry you think it's nasty. I think it's pretty nasty when someone tells me that Jesus should be taught in public school.

re: #206 Occasional Reader

From your link: "... is so big that small rodents could be trapped inside and slowly dissolved by flesh-eating enzymes."

Not a good way to go. Someone call PETA!

I blame all the vegetarians angering the plants into developing new weapons to use against us meatbags.
/

PIMF

usually, not ususally

re: #207 Charpete67

okay...I've always understood that the bible (specifically the dead sea scrolls) was a good source of information for archeologist to aid with placing various finds with regards to time lines, etc.

The dead sea scrolls are not part of the Bible.

re: #213 Occasional Reader

I definitely don't think "Bible Studies" per se should be taught in public schools. At the same time, it's hard to teach the history of Western art and literature without some familiarity with Judeo-Christian concepts. It could be a tough call... were it not for the evident backing of would-be theocrats in this particular case.

You can teach the history and influence without teaching theology.

Hi all! Just about to head to the doctor, but thought it might cheer folks up:

Conservatives Now Outnumber Liberals in All 50 States, Says Gallup Poll

Of course, it appears that when it comes to party identification, the Democrats still outdraw the Republicans - which goes to the point of many discussions here at LGF - what do Republicans need to do to build the party.

But hey! I'll take any good news I can get right about now!

;-)

re: #211 mfarmer1

I recently read a book that pointed out that American ignorance is no more pervasive than it ever was. The problem being that I read so much, I can't remember where I saw it.

re: #217 buzzsawmonkey

Think of it as the Biblical equivalent of those urban legends about falling asleep drunk in a cheap motel and waking up in a bathtub full of ice without a kidney.

And that too!
/

re: #187 itellu3times

That's Tom "Twinkletoes" DeLay to you.

When "Dancing with the Stars" told Tom they wanted him to "cut a rug," he thought they meant his toupe.

Ar, ar, ar.

re: #129 Dan G.

You state things went down hill after religion was shunted to the side.

No, I didn't say that at all.

re: #181 Ben Hur

You're so oppressed.

What's your problem dude??

It should come as no surprise that Reconstructionist Barton is a big fan of Michelle Bachman:

Tuesday, April 11, 2006

BIG LAKE, MINN. (April 11th, 2006) - David Barton is coming to Minnesota's sixth district to support Michele Bachmann in her run for U.S. Congress. The nationally known author and American historian has endorsed Senator Bachmann in her congressional race and will be speaking at the Bridgeview Assembly of God Church in Big Lake on Tuesday, April 18th. The title of his speech is "God, Government and Good Citizenship."

"I'm excited for David to come speak in the sixth district and honored by his endorsement and support," said Bachmann. "He is a fantastic and insightful writer."

David Barton is available for a limited number of media interviews. To set up, please call the media contact above.

Michele Bachmann is a state senator from Stillwater (Senate District 52). She is running for U.S. Congress in the sixth congressional district. For more information, please visit [Link: www.michelebachmann.com...]

re: #225 Ben Hur

Uh oh.

Obama is a SEKRIT MUZLIM!!!

Well played Sir!

re: #227 American Sabra

I'm sorry you think it's nasty. I think it's pretty nasty when someone tells me that Jesus should be taught in public school.

Crucify them!

///

I wonder what Kay Bailey Hutchinson thinks of this nonsense.

I live in Texas, and am not too concerned about this. I see hundreds of students every year coming out of high school, and none of them can read anyways. That means these Bible classes are doomed to fail.

re: #237 American Sabra

What's your problem dude??

If it were me, for one, being called "DUDE"

GGGAAAHHH!!

No,
Does the President swearing in on the Bible make us a theocracy?re: #216 Dan G.

Do you remember the sixties?
Joe Cocker teaching English diction at Woodstock

re: #211 mfarmer1

As much as I'm beginning to like you, I don't give a flying fuck what Bill M. thinks.

Off to the market.

re: #227 American Sabra

I'm sorry you think it's nasty. I think it's pretty nasty when someone tells me that Jesus should be taught in public school.

She said nothing of the kind.

re: #236 nonic

Sorry. Went back and re-re-re-read it; you have a very convoluted writing style (run-on sentences etc...)

re: #242 AngusMcP

I live in Texas, and am not too concerned about this. I see hundreds of students every year coming out of high school, and none of them can read anyways. That means these Bible classes are doomed to fail.

So you don't have problems with a demonstrated liar for Jesus inputting what your children are taught?

re: #202 Occasional Reader

Then you're talking about a different period in time than is nonic.

Does the time period matter? Teaching religion in school is 100% unconstitutional and is not what our Founders envisioned. A great deal of them didn't even believe in God.

Christians can insult those of us who want to keep church and state separate but when one of "us" have something to say about it, then we're bullies? Is that it? Just so I can get it straight.

re: #228 CyanSnowHawk

I blame all the vegetarians angering the plants into developing new weapons to use against us meatbags.
/

Yup, the Vagans are gonna be the first up against the wall in the plant revolution. Pass the rib sauce please.

Here is an important Hebrew Lesson. The Bible doesn't even start out, "In the beginning." as so many of our Christian friends are taught. It begins with the phrase, "In the beginning of God's creation." As Lewis Black says, you don't see rabbis interpreting your book, do you? The entire argument for creationism hinges on this one, mis-interpreted phrase. I don't know a single Jewish creationist personally. I am certain however, that those people who wish to take the mantle of scientific leadership from us in the U.S.A. would love to see us cram this idiocy into our schools.

re: #221 Last Mohican

I think the most charitable reading of nonic's argument is that mandatory Christianity in public schools should be permitted

I didn't see a "should be permitted", rather the (quite true) observation that the inclusion of such aspects in public education in the 1950s and early 60s did not inexorably lead to some sort of repressive theocratic society.

re: #220 Kenneth

Paul Helyer, Former Canadian Defense Minister and current Canadian lunatic, has revealed the Bush administration built a forward military base on the moon to prepare for intergalactic war with invading aliens.

[Video]

I'm sorry, but that deserves a thread of its own. It would lead to memorable snark!

re: #138 Charles

Oh, now I get it. You think all of those things are BAD. Including the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement.

Ooohkay.

No, actually, I think those things were good. Which is why I listed them, to show that a culture that (at that time) acknowledged religion was not all bad.

re: #244 Mr Chompers

What is your point. The point of this discussion is that there are those pushing theocracy and those (us) opposing it; then you insert some statements that are usually used to support that the U.S. is a christian nation. Just make your point.

re: #230 wahabicorridor

The dead sea scrolls are not part of the Bible.

they contains at least fragments, if not all, of 38 of 39 of the old testament books.

re: #254 Occasional Reader

I didn't see a "should be permitted", rather the (quite true) observation that the inclusion of such aspects in public education in the 1950s and early 60s did not inexorably lead to some sort of repressive theocratic society.

the inclusion for nearly the first 200 years of our nation's history didn't lead us to a repressive theocratic society.

re: #225 Ben Hur

Uh oh.

Obama is a SEKRIT MUZLIM!!!

Oh no you dih'int!

A very interesting essay by Michael Ruse...

Why I Think the New Atheists are a Bloody Disaster

Michael Ruse is an atheist, who concludes in this writing "I think that P. Z. Myers and his crew are as disastrous to the evolution side - and people like me need to say this - as Ben Stein is disastrous to the Creationism side - and the Creationists should have had the guts to say so. I have written elsewhere that The God Delusion makes me ashamed to be an atheist. Let me say that again. Let me say also that I am proud to be the focus of the invective of the new atheists. They are a bloody disaster and I want to be on the front line of those who say so."

Any non-believers have a POV on Ruse's thesis, detailed at the link above?

Hell, like most things taught in Texas, this will blow off the radar when football gets into full swing. As long has this religious bs isn't on the TAKS no one would get a shiite.