Swerve
Camera: iPhone 3G (accidental).
3 | livefreeor die Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:14:13pm |
Very cool. It has a Van Gogh feel to it-you should enter it in a contest.
8 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:18:05pm |
For the usual reason, I won't comment on things related to the iPhone here.
9 | Kragar Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:20:27pm |
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
President Obama sought Wednesday to reframe the health care debate as “a core ethical and moral obligation,” imploring a coalition of religious leaders to help promote the plan to lower costs and expand insurance coverage for all Americans.
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it?
10 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:21:00pm |
Blessed "accidents"... art (and science) are enriched by them.
The image works because of the car in the mirror, I think.
11 | itellu3times Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:21:19pm |
Charles, front page is unusable right now on an old PC (700mhz) running IE6. Like you care, but there it is. I presume it's the new infolinks thingy.
12 | Lee Coller Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:21:54pm |
How come your accidental shots look better than my intentional ones?
14 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:22:27pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it?
I his bass-ackwards moral universe, yess. We all must pitch in, whether we want to or not.
15 | Randall Gross Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:22:47pm |
Mighty steep hill you are driving down there
17 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:23:33pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it?
Because Obama feels that some people have the RIGHT to have you pay for their healthcare.
18 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:23:34pm |
A swerve of a different kind:
Homeowner sues Wells Fargo over equity credit lines
... Hickman, 46, who lives in the Chicago suburb of Westmont, complained in the lawsuit that Wells Fargo reduced his credit line by 59 percent to $31,040 from an original $75,000 in October because of an alleged "substantial decline" in the value of his home. ...
Nothing like taking a drug away from an addict.
19 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:24:25pm |
re: #14 Dark_Falcon
In his bass-ackwards moral universe, yess. We all must pitch in, whether we want to or not.
PIMF
20 | Neutral President Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:24:39pm |
What has an Alcubierre Drive in it? The phone or the car?
21 | albusteve Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:25:53pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it?
hahaha!...need a new car?
22 | Lee Coller Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:26:20pm |
The funny thing about this "right" to healthcare. The left finds a right, then says because its a right the government must provide it for me.
If that's the case, where's my government provided gun?
23 | Vicious Babushka Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:27:25pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it?
So is Obama gonna pay for my ankle surgery or will he give me a wheelchair and shove me down the stairs?
24 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:29:07pm |
re: #22 Lee Coller
The funny thing about this "right" to healthcare. The left finds a right, then says because its a right the government must provide it for me.
If that's the case, where's my government provided gun?
Leftists do not understand that if something requires time, effort, or money from someone else, then it is not your right to have it.
26 | albusteve Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:30:14pm |
those 12 million people are sure getting alot of attention...I want a new car tho
27 | Randall Gross Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:31:40pm |
re: #23 Alouette
ut oh ... you said wheelchair and stairs
I'm out, the lightning storm blew out my big monitor (don't worry, under warranty) and this little bitty back up monitor is making me squint.
28 | Bagua Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:32:28pm |
Obama Calls Health Plan a 'Moral Obligation'
I see, so if you are against government take-over of health care you are a "Denialist" also.
How does one keep up with this new moral code?
29 | albusteve Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:33:12pm |
re: #28 Bagua
I see, so if you are against government take-over of health care you are a "Denialist" also.
How does one keep up with this new moral code?
easy...you submit
30 | livefreeor die Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:34:05pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it?
It's like they have a checklist of approaches to try:
Hurry it through -Check
Accuse opposition of being astroturf-Check
Racism-Check
Moral obligation...
31 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:34:10pm |
re: #24 Racer X
Leftists do not understand that if something requires time, effort, or money from someone else, then it is not your right to have it.
Regardless of the pigeonholing of "Leftists", I disagree with your claim.
Think again about all those references to service men sacrificing to "protect" your rights.
32 | doppelganglander Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:34:14pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it?
Stupid statements like that make me even less inclined to want to help my fellow man. I may have a moral obligation to help my mother if she needs health care, but your mother is on her own as far as I'm concerned.
33 | albusteve Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:34:17pm |
health care reform?...bwahahaha!...read this
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
34 | Bagua Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:35:44pm |
re: #27 Thanos
I'm out, the lightning storm blew out my big monitor (don't worry, under warranty) and this little bitty back up monitor is making me squint.
Another victum of Global Warming.
35 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:36:12pm |
re: #31 freetoken
Regardless of the pigeonholing of "Leftists", I disagree with your claim.
Think again about all those references to service men sacrificing to "protect" your rights.
I'm not following you?
36 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:37:18pm |
re: #33 albusteve
health care reform?...bwahahaha!...read this
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
Just normal Chicago-style corruption. Not really surprising, but it should help tar and weaken Obama.
38 | albusteve Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:38:08pm |
39 | Macker Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:38:09pm |
re: #20 ArchangelMichael
What has an Alcubierre Drive in it? The phone or the car?
The Frakking USS Enterprise™
40 | Kosh's Shadow Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:38:16pm |
re: #3 livefreeor die
Very cool. It has a Van Gogh feel to it-you should enter it in a contest.
Or a road as designed by Salvatore Dali.
41 | Mich-again Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:38:46pm |
Which means you shouldn't be sitting there thats for sure.
42 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:38:51pm |
I am so bummed right now. Just found out that the very best (real) friend I've ever had in my life is moving away from me. I'm talking "Stand By Me" friend.
Before I vomit, let me post this little ditty...
43 | Lee Coller Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:38:56pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
I found a typo in that article:
As the president returned to the health care debate after two days of silence, the administration encouraged Republicans to
take part in the negotiationssubmit . Still, Democratic leaders moved ahead with plans to advance a measure next month with or without Republican cooperation.
44 | albusteve Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:39:06pm |
re: #36 Dark_Falcon
Just normal Chicago-style corruption. Not really surprising, but it should help tar and weaken Obama.
good story to follow...of course I'm not surprised, that'd be a stretch
45 | Vicious Babushka Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:39:33pm |
46 | Neutral President Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:39:37pm |
re: #31 freetoken
Regardless of the pigeonholing of "Leftists", I disagree with your claim.
Think again about all those references to service men sacrificing to "protect" your rights.
Protection of rights is not a necessary condition to practicing said rights, mere for keeping them from being denied to you for any length of time. If we had no government, a belief in a right to health care would imply a belief in the right to force someone to perform a costly service for you, on demand, for free.
47 | doppelganglander Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:41:00pm |
re: #42 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I am so bummed right now. Just found out that the very best (real) friend I've ever had in my life is moving away from me. I'm talking "Stand By Me" friend.
Before I vomit, let me post this little ditty...
I'm sorry to hear it. It's not easy to find a good friend and always difficult to lose one.
48 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:41:29pm |
re: #42 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I am so bummed right now. Just found out that the very best (real) friend I've ever had in my life is moving away from me. I'm talking "Stand By Me" friend.
Before I vomit, let me post this little ditty...
Oh, dear goodness. Wrong link.
That is super funny.
The link I meant...Not sure I'll ever live that mis-link down...
49 | itellu3times Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:42:34pm |
re: #48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
rather than click on either, I'll just use my imagination ...
50 | Kragar Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:42:47pm |
A musical response to Obama's "moral obligation"
51 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:43:16pm |
52 | jorline Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:44:39pm |
Damn California earthquakes.
As I mentioned on the previous thread...House of Mirrors.
53 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:46:56pm |
re: #35 Racer X
I'm not following you?
You claimed:
...if something requires time, effort, or money from someone else, then it is not your right to have it.
My counterclaim is that if you enumerated a list of "rights", upon close examination one could discover where, in history and well as presently, those "rights" have indeed required time, effort, or money from someone else.
54 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:48:09pm |
re: #49 itellu3times
rather than click on either, I'll just use my imagination ...
Oh, no. You need to click on both.
My embarrassment will not be complete without the "clickage".
55 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:48:14pm |
re: #53 freetoken
My counterclaim is that if you enumerated a list of "rights", upon close examination one could discover where, in history and well as presently, those "rights" have indeed required time, effort, or money from someone else.
Okay, I'll take you up:
Right to bear arms (assuming I was a self-supporting single person)
Right to free speech
How do either of those require time, effort, or money from someone else?
56 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:49:07pm |
re: #46 ArchangelMichael
Protection of rights is not a necessary condition to practicing said rights, mere for keeping them from being denied to you for any length of time.
A distinction that I believe is not so important. You might claim you have a certain "right" in the abstract, but unless you can materially exercise said right then it will not do you any good and you might as well not have it.
57 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:49:29pm |
re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
A musical response to Obama's "moral obligation"
[Video]
Oh, Mandy has got to see that.
58 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:49:48pm |
re: #55 EmmmieG
How do either of those require time, effort, or money from someone else?
Oh.. how about starting with the Revolutionary War? Did that take time, effort, and money from someone?
59 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:50:26pm |
re: #58 freetoken
Oh.. how about starting with the Revolutionary War? Did that take time, effort, and money from someone?
That wasn't a right. It was a war.
60 | Kragar Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:50:27pm |
Some rights, you have to fight for, but at least you can have soda and pie
61 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:52:18pm |
re: #48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Bummer, FBV. How far away is your bud moving?
62 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:52:32pm |
63 | TomatoGarden Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:53:12pm |
re: #56 freetoken
With respect, your rights end at the entrance to my wallet.
64 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:53:52pm |
re: #53 freetoken
My counterclaim is that if you enumerated a list of "rights", upon close examination one could discover where, in history and well as presently, those "rights" have indeed required time, effort, or money from someone else.
Hmm... I stand by my claim then.
If what I desire requires someone else to help me get it, then it is not my right to have it. You mentioned the service that our military provides. That goes both ways - militia can (and often do) take rights away.
The point I was making is health care is not a right. It is a perk - if you can afford it, or if it is provided by someone else.
Every human on the planet does not have a right to healthcare.
65 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:54:54pm |
re: #63 TomatoGarden
With respect, your rights end at the entrance to my wallet.
Quite Concur. That can't get said enough.
66 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:55:17pm |
Bill Whittle...
What Is a Right and How Do We Know?
Simply this: Constitutional rights protect us from things: intimidation, illegal search and seizure, self-incrimination, and so on. The revolutionary idea of our Founding Fathers was that people had a God-given right to live as they saw fit. Our constitutional rights protect us from the power of government.But these new so-called “rights” are about the government — who the Founders saw as the enemy — giving us things: food, health care, education... And when we have a right to be given stuff that previously we had to work for, then there is no reason — none — to go and work for them. The goody bag has no bottom, except bankruptcy and ruin.
68 | keithgabryelski Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:56:09pm |
So, how did that photo get all funky? Was the iPhone spinning?
69 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:56:39pm |
re: #63 TomatoGarden
With respect, your rights end at the entrance to my wallet.
Kind of sucks that other people are deciding what rights are, ain't it?
70 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:57:06pm |
re: #66 jcm
Bill Whittle...
What Is a Right and How Do We Know?
Great words there. Mr. Whittle is right on the money.
71 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:57:58pm |
re: #58 freetoken
Oh.. how about starting with the Revolutionary War? Did that take time, effort, and money from someone?
Now that I've had time to think about it: It might take time, effort, and money to protect a right, but the right itself does not.
The Revolutionary War gave me those two rights. But if I spend my money on a gun, store it safely in my house, and buy my own ammo, I haven't imposed on you any.
If I print out a broadsheet and stand on the corner to pass it out, as long as I do not harass or physically block your way to demand you read it, I haven't imposed on you any.
72 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:59:31pm |
re: #71 EmmmieG
Now that I've had time to think about it: It might take time, effort, and money to protect a right, but the right itself does not.
The Revolutionary War gave me those two rights. But if I spend my money on a gun, store it safely in my house, and buy my own ammo, I haven't imposed on you any.
If I print out a broadsheet and stand on the corner to pass it out, as long as I do not harass or physically block your way to demand you read it, I haven't imposed on you any.
Quite Concur.
73 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:59:44pm |
Going to go and have a crying jag. Y'all have fun.
G'night Elizabeth.
74 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 8:59:48pm |
re: #67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Sorry to hear it. Good friends are hard to find.
75 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:00:03pm |
Good evening y'all - I gather from a quick read of the thread that we are talking about rights. I assume in the Constitutional sense?
re: #66 jcm
Excellent comment and link - Bill Whittle rights some great stuff!
76 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:01:35pm |
re: #75 realwest
Good evening y'all - I gather from a quick read of the thread that we are talking about rights. I assume in the Constitutional sense?
Excellent comment and link - Bill Whittle rights some great stuff!
I just jumped in with that... health care as a right I presume.
Every individual has the right to pursue health care.
There is no right to have it provided.
77 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:04:05pm |
re: #76 jcm
Every individual has the right to pursue health care.
There is no right to have it provided.
Concur.
78 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:04:07pm |
79 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:04:12pm |
re: #76 jcm
I just jumped in with that... health care as a right I presume.
Every individual has the right to pursue health care.
There is no right to have it provided.
You could fit a lot of words in there...
...A maserati
...Mint chocolate chip ice cream
...A big house
...A spouse
80 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:04:20pm |
re: #75 realwest
Good evening y'all - I gather from a quick read of the thread that we are talking about rights. I assume in the Constitutional sense?
Excellent comment and link - Bill Whittle rights some great stuff!
We are indeed talking about rights. I'd say we were expounding on the differences between negative liberties and positive liberties.
81 | Bagua Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:05:03pm |
82 | swamprat Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:05:11pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it
Ayn Rand spoke of this.
In her opinion,
When someone tells you, that you MUST do this or that, because someone else NEEDS or DESERVES that which is yours, to become that which is theirs;
You should kill the insisting party.(Not the NEEDY) If you are unable to do so, you should leave. Right away. This will only get worse, because every time the needful get some of yours, the intermediary party gets a take of the prize and becomes more powerful and richer.
I thought, at the time, she was just being provocative, until I found out she was writing from experience.
Though I personally think she was over the top, I realize she was dead serious.
Now I find myself traveling through scenes I have already read, but am unable to wake up either my fellow travellers, or myself.
At this point I find myself agreeing with the early communists;
Oh no, ..don't vote..you'll only encourage them!
83 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:06:11pm |
re: #76 jcm
Hey jcm, I would say that you're right in the constitutional sense, but in the moral sense, I think we really all are our brother's keeper - if some American needs help in getting healthcare and if we are in a position to help them get it, then I do think we have a moral obligation to help them.
84 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:06:27pm |
re: #82 swamprat
Now Obama is just pissing me off.
How is it moral or ethical to take money from people to pay for something they don't want and punish them if they dont want it
Ayn Rand spoke of this.
In her opinion,
When someone tells you, that you MUST do this or that, because someone else NEEDS or DESERVES that which is yours, to become that which is theirs;You should kill the insisting party.(Not the NEEDY) If you are unable to do so, you should leave. Right away. This will only get worse, because every time the needful get some of yours, the intermediary party gets a take of the prize and becomes more powerful and richer.
I thought, at the time, she was just being provocative, until I found out she was writing from experience.
Though I personally think she was over the top, I realize she was dead serious.
Now I find myself traveling through scenes I have already read, but am unable to wake up either my fellow travellers, or myself.
At this point I find myself agreeing with the early communists;
Obamacare is a nightmare from which there may be no waking.
85 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:06:37pm |
Limerick of the day:
Leech Therapy Makes A Comeback
Obamacare will be defeated.
But no worries: no new laws are needed.
No insurance? No fuss!
Just come see Docs 'R' Us.
We're the ones to make sure you're well bleeded.
86 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:07:39pm |
re: #83 realwest
Hey jcm, I would say that you're right in the constitutional sense, but in the moral sense, I think we really all are our brother's keeper - if some American needs help in getting healthcare and if we are in a position to help them get it, then I do think we have a moral obligation to help them.
Indeed, I would call a wealthy person who gave no money to the poor immoral.
Even if they had just gone through a divorce and had needed to buy a new bike or whatever it was his excuse was.
87 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:08:14pm |
re: #84 Dark_Falcon
Obamacare is a nightmare from which there may be no waking.
According to James Joyce, that would be history. Which is indubitably true.
88 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:10:23pm |
It appears that TFK is not logged in.
/Just threw in a John Kerry reference to see if he was listening.
89 | Bob Dillon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:10:35pm |
re: #2 pat
So thats what a swerve looks like.
Actually - This is what The Swerve looks like.
[Link: www.geocities.com...]
90 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:11:31pm |
re: #71 EmmmieG
re: #64 Racer X
What I am driving at, indirectly, is what is meant by a "right". It is common in conservative circles that people have a religious understanding of "rights", even if not explicitly so.
It is usual to hear that "rights" can't be created or given... that somehow they pre-exist you and me. Often this takes the form of "God-given rights". Even if God not explicitly referenced, the idea is given that a right has some property that makes it outside of an agreement by a group/community.
On the other hand, if once accepts that a "right" is a creation by a group, such right takes at least some effort by the group to define and to protect it. If one does accept this, then the protection of said right is as important as the origination of the right.
My claim is that the protection of the rights we enjoy has indeed been costly, very costly. Now, we believe such costs to be worth it... so few people protest.
The other angle I am chasing is that rights cannot exist without reciprocating responsibilities. We enjoy rights as citizens only because we also carry out the responsibilities of citizenship.
Wrt healthcare... someone a few days ago said it better than I - that the issue before us is not whether healthcare is a right or not, but rather this question: what do we wish our society to be/become? (This is not exactly the wording that impressed me, but it was along these lines.)
91 | Sloppy Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:11:37pm |
Since when was it acceptable to write "health care" as one word?
92 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:11:51pm |
re: #87 Cato the Elder
According to James Joyce, that would be history. Which is indubitably true.
Thank you for that reference, Cato. Upding.
93 | Neutral President Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:13:21pm |
re: #56 freetoken
A distinction that I believe is not so important. You might claim you have a certain "right" in the abstract, but unless you can materially exercise said right then it will not do you any good and you might as well not have it.
If you have no belief in any type of moral code perhaps. If morals are relative constructs of society, and rights are something made up whole cloth by people or governments rather than something innate this holds.
I believe (as do most who consider themselves non-collectivists) what makes something an actual "right" and not a perk, an entitlement, or some other collectivist wishful thinking is something that people require to thrive, but requires nothing of others. Without these rights, people are miserable and society stagnates or regresses. This is innate to the human condition. If we did not as human beings need free speech, free thought, right to life, right to liberty, and the like, then our society would have stagnated or regressed.
Humans were basically two steps above being cavemen until the 1800s. What changed? A government came about that was skeptical of the control freakiness of rule of men rather than law that followed it. A government that recognized rights instead of denying them. In 200 years people advanced more than they did in 200,000 before them.
94 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:13:22pm |
re: #86 EmmmieG
Yes, that's sorta what I meant. That's just ONE of the things that pissed me off about President Obama's apology tour of Europe and the ME apologizing for the US.
As far as I know, private US citizens have given more in the way of money, goods and services to other people than anyone else has ever done in the history of the World. And the same is true of the US Government. I can't recall the link for this now, but I do distinctly reading from some "world organization" - maybe WHO or somesuch, that after the Tsunami that rocked Indonesia a few years ago - the largest Muslim nation in the world - US private citizens ALONE gave more assistance than did all of the Islamic nations of the world combined - and of course the US government gave as much as the Indonesian government would allow.
95 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:15:08pm |
re: #90 freetoken
I want our society to remain a place where health care is not controlled and rationed by the government. I concede a place for limited government funding for some cases of poverty. but I want to keep government from decided my course of treatment.
96 | Bagua Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:15:22pm |
97 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:16:47pm |
re: #83 realwest
Hey jcm, I would say that you're right in the constitutional sense, but in the moral sense, I think we really all are our brother's keeper - if some American needs help in getting healthcare and if we are in a position to help them get it, then I do think we have a moral obligation to help them.
Correct, I would add for those who are in need.
Biblically we have to seemly contrary concept, taking care of the poor, widows, and orphans, and he who doesn't work won't eat.
Compassion, morals how ever you want to phrase it, we do need to care for former. That said such care should be provided by the Federal government last. Family, community, local government should be the providers before the federal government.
For the latter, is not compassionate to enable self destructive behaviors. Like Seattle's apartment for alcoholics where they can drink to their hearts and livers content. Such an arrange does nothing to help the individual.
99 | Bagua Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:17:50pm |
100 | Killgore Trout Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:17:52pm |
re: #66 jcm
But these new so-called “rights” are about the government — who the Founders saw as the enemy — giving us things: food, health care, education...
I'm pretty sure that's not a true statement. I think if you poke around you'll find that some (if not many) of the founding fathers were in favor of government services.
101 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:18:04pm |
re: #90 freetoken
On the other hand, if once accepts that a "right" is a creation by a group, such right takes at least some effort by the group to define and to protect it. If one does accept this, then the protection of said right is as important as the origination of the right.
I gave you an upding for that. The protection of our rights does require time, effort, and money. What's the saying? Freedom isn't free.
102 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:20:17pm |
re: #90 freetoken
re: #64 Racer X
What I am driving at, indirectly, is what is meant by a "right". It is common in conservative circles that people have a religious understanding of "rights", even if not explicitly so.
It is usual to hear that "rights" can't be created or given... that somehow they pre-exist you and me. Often this takes the form of "God-given rights". Even if God not explicitly referenced, the idea is given that a right has some property that makes it outside of an agreement by a group/community.
On the other hand, if once accepts that a "right" is a creation by a group, such right takes at least some effort by the group to define and to protect it. If one does accept this, then the protection of said right is as important as the origination of the right.
My claim is that the protection of the rights we enjoy has indeed been costly, very costly. Now, we believe such costs to be worth it... so few people protest.
The other angle I am chasing is that rights cannot exist without reciprocating responsibilities. We enjoy rights as citizens only because we also carry out the responsibilities of citizenship.
Wrt healthcare... someone a few days ago said it better than I - that the issue before us is not whether healthcare is a right or not, but rather this question: what do we wish our society to be/become? (This is not exactly the wording that impressed me, but it was along these lines.)
Item 1: The idea that God gave us certain inalienable rights is in the Declaration of Independence, so it's an idea with a pretty long history. Of course, the previous idea was that the King gave you your rights.
The reason you probably want to stick with God rather than the group, is that the group could vote to take away your rights.
Item 2: Totally agree with you on our responsibilities as citizens.
Item 3: Yep, taken a lot of work, and will continue to do so.
Item 4: I do not want to become a society in which the government forcibly takes income from one individual and gives it to another, then proclaims this a moral good. I do think the rich should give (and I guess I count myself as rich here), but voluntarily.
Meaty ideas, though, and excellently written.
103 | swamprat Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:21:28pm |
re: #88 EmmmieG
It appears that TFK is not logged in.
/Just threw in a John Kerry reference to see if he was listening.
"what 4409 means"
4409
44-409
"a 44 cleans better than 409;
Betty cleaned the house for the very last time"
If would best if you could turn the video all the way down.
Looked for the video down knob-couldn't find it
Sound could go down a bit also
Maybe you should skip it...:-)
104 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:22:39pm |
re: #90 freetoken
Good evening freetoken. Hope you don't mind me jumping in here!
But you said "Wrt healthcare... someone a few days ago said it better than I - that the issue before us is not whether healthcare is a right or not, but rather this question: what do we wish our society to be/become? (This is not exactly the wording that impressed me, but it was along these lines.)"
And I too remember that line but also cannot remember who wrote it.
I still think that, wrt health care (or healthcare - however you spell it everyone knows what you mean) a major failing of the various healthcare bills in front of the Congress now is that they assume something like 46 million people cannot afford health insurance. Some other reputable folks have said that the number of Americans who cannot afford health insurance is closer to 12 million.
Now I'm not "sneezing" at 12 Million, but it seems to me that the Democratically controlled Congress which has written the healthcare/health insurance bills OWES to all Americans SOME explanation of how many people we are trying to help out with the various bills going around Congress. Never mind, for a while at least, what the various bills say or don't say, I suspect that a RADICAL change in the way health care is delivered and paid for is different than the kind of change - if any - in the way health care is delivered or a RADICAL change in how it's paid for if the number is 12 million as opposed to 46 million Americans.
106 | Killian Bundy Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:25:14pm |
New Rx for Health Plan: Split Bill
The White House and Senate Democratic leaders, seeing little chance of bipartisan support for their health-care overhaul, are considering a strategy shift that would break the legislation into two parts and pass the most expensive provisions solely with Democratic votes.
The idea is the latest effort by Democrats to escape the morass caused by delays in Congress, as well as voter discontent crystallized in angry town-hall meetings. Polls suggest the overhaul plans are losing public support, giving Republicans less incentive to go along.
Democrats hope a split-the-bill plan would speed up a vote and help President Barack Obama meet his goal of getting a final measure by year's end.
Senators on the Finance Committee are pushing ahead with talks on a bipartisan bill. Democratic leaders say they hope those talks succeed but increasingly are preparing for the possibility that they do not.
Most legislation in the Senate requires 60 votes to overcome a filibuster, but certain budget-related measures can pass with 51 votes through a parliamentary maneuver called reconciliation.
In recent days, Democratic leaders have concluded they can pack more of their health overhaul plans under this procedure, congressional aides said. They might even be able to include a public insurance plan to compete with private insurers, a key demand of the party's liberal wing, but that remains uncertain.
Yeah, go ahead, pass it using reconciliation, own it, I double dare you, that'll go over real well with the American people who overwhelmingly are against this travesty.
/good luck getting reelected
107 | Kragar Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:26:23pm |
108 | Killgore Trout Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:26:35pm |
re: #100 Killgore Trout
I'm pretty sure that's not a true statement. I think if you poke around you'll find that some (if not many) of the founding fathers were in favor of government services.
I started with Tom Jefferson: Public Works & Public Assistance
Promoting the Arts, Helping Those in Need , etc.
"Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now."
Anyone want to take a guess at what that means?
109 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:29:53pm |
re: #102 EmmmieG
Item 1: The idea that God gave us certain inalienable rights is in the Declaration of Independence, so it's an idea with a pretty long history. Of course, the previous idea was that the King gave you your rights.
I think what freetoken was driving at was that while we might justify our rights by saying/thinking they are derived from God, in reality it's a group of people claiming it/them.
110 | Holidays are Family Fun Time Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:29:54pm |
Hey Night Lizards! It's actually pleasant outside right now in Near Iowa.
Did I tell you-all I just got my first pair of bifocals? Well, I was getting over the queasy feeling that comes with one's first pair of bifocals (so, I am told), but then Charles posted The Swerve.
How are you-all and what are we talking about?
111 | swamprat Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:30:37pm |
re: #107 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
On an earlier thread, she had asked "what 4409"meant
"Betty being bad" leapt to mind.
Black Betty is good, too.
No 44-409 reference, just good.
112 | Neutral President Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:31:27pm |
re: #108 Killgore Trout
Well probably not what you think it means since it's in the section labeled:
"Limits of Governmental Aid and Assistance"
113 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:31:51pm |
re: #91 Sloppy
Since when was it acceptable to write "health care" as one word?
It is now acceptable (i.e., found in dictionaries) in American spelling.
114 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:31:58pm |
re: #90 freetoken
Rights are costly.
The concept of rights is very old, going back to the Code of Hamurabi.
Rights are intrinsic to the individual, as much a part of them as life its self.
Through out history rights and life itself is easily trampled, denied and violated.
Establishing the protection of theses rights is costly and requires eternal vigilance.
When Jefferson used the phrase "endowed by our creator" he was placing rights outside the control of men or governments. That any rights granted by men, can be revoked. Since the rights like life are intrinsic, they cannot justly be denied to an individual by others. That an individual is justified in protecting his rights. Our government formed around this concept, government subservient to individual rights, not the other way around.
Which brings us to health care. I see health care as related to life, my life depends and proper medical attention. I have the right to pursue, to obtain, to access health care. No one can justifiable deny me to access it.
That said health care is not like growing a crop. Where through my own labor I can produce my food. I must have someone labor on my behalf to give me health care. What of their rights?
Can I go to anyone and demand a portion of their labor? No. But I can trade my labor for theirs. We do that with money. Using insurance or cash, I compensate the provider for their labor.
As long as this is mutually agreed to no ones rights are violated.
When government starts demand labor be provided the we start having issues.
115 | swamprat Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:32:14pm |
re: #107 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Thank you Robert Johnson!
116 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:33:37pm |
re: #109 Sharmuta
I think what freetoken was driving at was that while we might justify our rights by saying/thinking they are derived from God, in reality it's a group of people claiming it/them.
I see the point that, yes, the US is just a group of people that are claiming that a right is inalienable, and cannot be voted away by the majority, but in reality, we could if we wanted to.
I still like the claim, because it's one of the pillars our nation rests on.
117 | sngnsgt Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:34:24pm |
re: #107 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
LOL! It's been at least ten years since I've heard that song, thx.
118 | Neutral President Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:34:28pm |
Search Google for:
"Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now."
This quote seems to be universally accepted as meaning our bodies would be in very bad shape. Thomas Jefferson was not a nanny statist.
119 | swamprat Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:34:56pm |
120 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:35:00pm |
re: #116 EmmmieG
I see the point that, yes, the US is just a group of people that are claiming that a right is inalienable, and cannot be voted away by the majority, but in reality, we could if we wanted to.
I still like the claim, because it's one of the pillars our nation rests on.
I do too, as I think they belong to all of humanity.
123 | Neutral President Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:37:06pm |
re: #109 Sharmuta
I think what freetoken was driving at was that while we might justify our rights by saying/thinking they are derived from God, in reality it's a group of people claiming it/them.
Which is why I specifically avoided the phrase "god given rights" in my explanation and replaced it with human nature. Without them we flounder, with them we thrive. Theres are 2000 centuries or so to back this up without invoking religion.
124 | Killian Bundy Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:37:06pm |
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
Congress providing health care (among many other government programs created over the centuries)?
/not an authorized power of Congress
125 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:37:32pm |
On the one hand Benjamin Franklin founded the first Fire Department.
On the other hand, he ran away from an apprenticeship that he found onerous. (Older brothers can be annoying...)
126 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:37:34pm |
re: #100 Killgore Trout
I'm pretty sure that's not a true statement. I think if you poke around you'll find that some (if not many) of the founding fathers were in favor of government services.
Common Good vs. Individual Good.
Let's take a road. It benefits everyone in the area even if they don't use it. Goods are transported more easily, product is sent to other markets, etc... same for police and fire service. Even if you never call 911 you benefit from the existence of those service, your insurance rates are lower, business and lower cost because of the insurance rates etc...
They were against provide an individual an direct "good" i.e. service. Using tax funds to build a individual a drive way or provide health care.
Government can make some simple reforms that would make health insurance more affordable and accessible to everyone, not provide health care directly to individuals even if it is all individuals, that makes the individual dependent on government.
127 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:38:35pm |
re: #106 Killian Bundy
Evening Killian - I know that Harry Reid and Charles Shumer and I think President Obama have all said that they want the health care bill that came out of Waxman's committee to be passed with bi-partisan support, but are prepared to do the reconciliation bit* if Republicans don't go along.
I hope that they don't do that. For one thing, the arrogance shown by many at the Town Hall meetings (some by protesters, some by elected officials) and the obfuscation and just plain old fashioned inability to comprehend what the Waxman version of the bill means or would do (after the regulations get set) is clearly something that will affect ALL AMERICANS. And if they go "reconciliation" on this, they will be doing, IMO, irreparable damage to our society in more ways than the health care bill.
*when Republicans controlled the Congress in 200-2006, there were any number of times when some Republicans thought of doing this - iirc it was called the "Nuclear Option" and somehow managed to avoid doing that. I opposed that when Republicans proposed it for the same reason I oppose it if the Democrats propose it.
130 | BatGuano Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:40:54pm |
re: #121 Racer X
I prefer less government, not more.
The important thing is how does Cato the elder come down on it.
131 | solomonpanting Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:41:18pm |
Obama, Mubarak seek fresh start to strained US-Egypt ties
If nothing else, President Obama's meeting Tuesday with his Egyptian counterpart, Hosni Mubarak, may symbolize the fact that the White House has hit the reset button on US-Egyptian relations.
Mr. Mubarak has stayed away from Washington in recent years, making little secret of his irritation with what Egyptians considered to be the Bush administration's pro-Israeli policies. Nor did Mubarak appreciate the way Bush officials publicly prodded Egypt on human rights.
Thank goodness the Obamanians seek a change in both of those pesky, irritating policies.
What an indictment of the Dem mindset.
132 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:41:58pm |
re: #125 EmmmieG
On the one hand Benjamin Franklin founded the first Fire Department.
On the other hand, he ran away from an apprenticeship that he found onerous. (Older brothers can be annoying...)
And the first public library. And the first hospital. And the first Academy.
The man was a giant.
134 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:42:04pm |
re: #127 realwest
Evening Killian - I know that Harry Reid and Charles Shumer and I think President Obama have all said that they want the health care bill that came out of Waxman's committee to be passed with bi-partisan support, but are prepared to do the reconciliation bit* if Republicans don't go along.
I hope that they don't do that. For one thing, the arrogance shown by many at the Town Hall meetings (some by protesters, some by elected officials) and the obfuscation and just plain old fashioned inability to comprehend what the Waxman version of the bill means or would do (after the regulations get set) is clearly something that will affect ALL AMERICANS. And if they go "reconciliation" on this, they will be doing, IMO, irreparable damage to our society in more ways than the health care bill.*when Republicans controlled the Congress in 200-2006, there were any number of times when some Republicans thought of doing this - iirc it was called the "Nuclear Option" and somehow managed to avoid doing that. I opposed that when Republicans proposed it for the same reason I oppose it if the Democrats propose it.
I don't think they'll actually try to put a 'public option' through with reconciliation. Doing that would indeed be a nuclear option and a whole bunch of Dems 9Harry Reid being one of them) would see their careers die in the fallout.
135 | swamprat Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:42:59pm |
re: #124 Killian Bundy
Living document.
That means it needs a freedomectomy.
Keep your hands off my "living document"!
136 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:43:13pm |
Via Ace:
Oh, My: MSNBC Carefully Crops Shot of Black Man Carrying AR-15 at Healt Care Rally to Avoid Skin Color, So They Can Then Rant and Rave About "White People" Showing Up With Guns When a "Person of Color" is PresidentHeads should roll for this.
These bastards are screaming about racial tensions and they're deliberately falsifying video in order to create more racial tension for partisan gain and ratings?
Race card Fail.
137 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:43:30pm |
re: #130 BatGuano
The important thing is how does Cato the elder come down on it.
Hard. As usual.
Do try to get over yourself, BG. You need my approval like a piscine carnivore requires a velocipede.
138 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:43:40pm |
139 | Killgore Trout Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:44:11pm |
re: #112 ArchangelMichael
I don't think it means anything. I honestly don't get it regardless of where some dude put it on his web page.
140 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:44:21pm |
re: #132 Sharmuta
And the first public library. And the first hospital. And the first Academy.
The man was a giant.
One of his great contributions (I've said this before, so bear with me) was that he trained apprentices and then set them up in business in other cities. (He would pay their costs for a chunk of the profits for a set number of years.)
BF-trained printers, spread across the colonies.
And he was actually quite tall for his time.
141 | Holidays are Family Fun Time Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:44:37pm |
re: #114 jcm
Rights are costly.
The concept of rights is very old, going back to the Code of Hamurabi.Rights are intrinsic to the individual, as much a part of them as life its self.
Through out history rights and life itself is easily trampled, denied and violated.
Establishing the protection of theses rights is costly and requires eternal vigilance.
When Jefferson used the phrase "endowed by our creator" he was placing rights outside the control of men or governments. That any rights granted by men, can be revoked. Since the rights like life are intrinsic, they cannot justly be denied to an individual by others. That an individual is justified in protecting his rights. Our government formed around this concept, government subservient to individual rights, not the other way around.
Which brings us to health care. I see health care as related to life, my life depends and proper medical attention. I have the right to pursue, to obtain, to access health care. No one can justifiable deny me to access it.
That said health care is not like growing a crop. Where through my own labor I can produce my food. I must have someone labor on my behalf to give me health care. What of their rights?
Can I go to anyone and demand a portion of their labor? No. But I can trade my labor for theirs. We do that with money. Using insurance or cash, I compensate the provider for their labor.
As long as this is mutually agreed to no ones rights are violated.
When government starts demand labor be provided the we start having issues.
excellent. Tho, I would argue that health care is like a crop. It is a resource --not right --an entitlement, perhaps. I think we get into trouble when we start using the Constitution to protect/control the distribution of resources --which is what I think many in this debate are trying to do. I would argue that the Constitution can protect the opportunity for individuals to seek a resource, but not to protect the resource itself.
142 | swamprat Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:45:10pm |
re: #136 Racer X
Via Ace:
Oh, My: MSNBC Carefully Crops Shot of Black Man Carrying AR-15 at Healt Care Rally to Avoid Skin Color, So They Can Then Rant and Rave About "White People" Showing Up With Guns When a "Person of Color" is President
Heads should roll for this.These bastards are screaming about racial tensions and they're deliberately falsifying video in order to create more racial tension for partisan gain and ratings?
Race card Fail.
Oh man! I never saw That One coming!
//major sarc, pun intended
143 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:45:17pm |
re: #126 jcm
"They were against provide an individual an direct "good" i.e. service. Using tax funds to build a individual a drive way or provide health care."
Uh, would that be something like the John P.
Murtha Airport? With 20 flights a day (to and from) Washington D.C. only?
144 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:45:55pm |
re: #125 EmmmieG
On the one hand Benjamin Franklin founded the first Fire Department.
On the other hand, he ran away from an apprenticeship that he found onerous. (Older brothers can be annoying...)
And IIRC and Insurance Co. to fund the Fire Dept. The Four Hands Emblem marked those who purchased insurance.
145 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:46:35pm |
re: #132 Sharmuta
And the first public library. And the first hospital. And the first Academy.
The man was a giant.
But enough about his weight problem. :rimshot:
/Did they have Friar's Club Roasts back in his day?
146 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:46:43pm |
re: #136 Racer X
Via Ace:
Race card Fail.
It's not a fail, I have to say. Not yet anyway. The MSM will go right on talking about the gun and race and ignoring the full story. It will only become a fail if the truth about the gun's wielder is told effectively and is heard by the general public.
147 | solomonpanting Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:47:04pm |
148 | Killgore Trout Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:48:06pm |
re: #125 EmmmieG
On the one hand Benjamin Franklin founded the first Fire Department.
On the other hand, he ran away from an apprenticeship that he found onerous. (Older brothers can be annoying...)
Id love to know what services Ben thought the government should provide. Whores and electricity would be my first guesses.
149 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:48:54pm |
re: #141 ggt
No argument, when I said crop, I mean product of my own labor. Enjoying the product of my own labor is a right. I can only exchange said product of my labor for the product of someone else's labor in a mutual agreement.
150 | BatGuano Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:50:00pm |
re: #137 Cato the Elder
Hi Cato. Wanna try another explanation for the black helicopter comment.
152 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:50:25pm |
re: #140 EmmmieG
This was another incredible contribution:
Franklin bequeathed £1,000 (about $4,400 at the time) each to the cities of Boston and Philadelphia, in trust to gather interest for 200 years. The trust began in 1785 when a French mathematician named Charles-Joseph Mathon de la Cour wrote a parody of Franklin's "Poor Richard's Almanack" called "Fortunate Richard." Mocking the unbearable spirit of American optimism represented by Franklin, the Frenchman wrote that Fortunate Richard left a small sum of money in his will to be used only after it had collected interest for 500 years. Franklin, who was 79 years old at the time, wrote to the Frenchman, thanking him for a great idea and telling him that he had decided to leave a bequest of 1,000 pounds each to his native Boston and his adopted Philadelphia. As of 1990, more than $2,000,000 had accumulated in Franklin's Philadelphia trust, which had loaned the money to local residents. From 1940 to 1990, the money was used mostly for mortgage loans. When the trust came due, Philadelphia decided to spend it on scholarships for local high school students. Franklin's Boston trust fund accumulated almost $5,000,000 during that same time; at the end of its first 100 years a portion was allocated to help establish a trade school that became the Franklin Institute of Boston and the whole fund was later dedicated to supporting this institute.
They broke the mold.
153 | Holidays are Family Fun Time Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:50:52pm |
re: #149 jcm
No argument, when I said crop, I mean product of my own labor. Enjoying the product of my own labor is a right. I can only exchange said product of my labor for the product of someone else's labor in a mutual agreement.
contracts! Yes, I agree.
154 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:51:34pm |
re: #148 Killgore Trout
Ha ha. I'm thinking education. (When you are a printer, universal literacy is a very good thing.)
After that? Well, he was pro-vaccine.
155 | sngnsgt Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:52:15pm |
re: #136 Racer X
It's things like this that make networks like PMSNBC irrelevant compared to other cable news channels and why their ratings are in the tank.
156 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:52:19pm |
re: #148 Killgore Trout
" Whores and electricity wine would be my first guesses." FTFY!
Or women of "easy virtue" instead of whores Ben Franklin may very well be the first man to have groupies!
157 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:52:55pm |
re: #152 Sharmuta
This was another incredible contribution:
They broke the mold.
Yeah, but 200 years is a long freakin' time to wait to be a millionaire. Most modern capitalists would rather steal. Just sayin'.
158 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:54:06pm |
re: #156 realwest
PIMF "" Whores and electricity wine would be my first guesses." FTFY!
159 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:54:47pm |
re: #150 BatGuano
Hi Cato. Wanna try another explanation for the black helicopter comment.
I told you: The first lesson was free.
Now show me the money.
160 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:54:47pm |
I'm too tired to keep going. Sorry all, but I must call it a night. Sleep well, and stay scaly.
161 | freetoken Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:54:53pm |
re: #104 realwest
Good evening freetoken. Hope you don't mind me jumping in here!
...
I still think that, wrt health care (or healthcare - however you spell it everyone knows what you mean) a major failing of the various healthcare bills in front of the Congress now is that they assume something like 46 million people cannot afford health insurance.
I'd propose that there are quite a few more failings than just a miscount of the number without health insurance!
The task before us (I propose), in 2009, some 200 years after the industrial revolution freed most of us from manual labor, is to determine how to spend our wealth.
Personally I don't mind if our society decides to spend a significant fraction of our wealth on keeping us (all) healthy and living longer than ever before. That seems like a more fruitful idea than, say, building yet more casinos on the LV strip.
If everybody exercised wisdom everyday and took proper care, we probably wouldn't need to be spend as much as we do on healthcare. Likewise, if we (all) treated each other with respect we wouldn't have to spend nowhere near the amount we do on law enforcement and prisons.
However, utopias are hard to come by these days.
So we spend our wealth on fixing up what goes wrong.
I am hoping that out of the political mess this debate has become some good will manifest. It would be nice if the issues of:
(a) the truly poor who can't afford health insurance,
(b) rapidly escalating costs of healthcare management,
(c) the baby-boom of post WWII overwhelming SS/Medicare,
could be broken out separately and dealt with more care (and less political hubris.)
I'm not too concerned about my own healthcare currently. However, I can see a day coming, hopefully not for a few decades yet, where I will need more medical attention as I grow old. We all get there in time...
Here is what I desire/require of the political decisions being made:
1: That I be the one to decide to whom or where to go for health care/advice.
2: That healthcare providers have their own discretion of what to provide.
Other than that... I really am not too concerned that a large fraction of my taxes go to providing health care... really, of all the things on which we spend our taxes, our wealth, I can think of many other items which are not as worthy.
162 | Killgore Trout Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:55:06pm |
re: #156 realwest
" Whores and electricity wine would be my first guesses." FTFY!
Or women of "easy virtue" instead of whores Ben Franklin may very well be the first man to have groupies!
A kite with a key on the string. It still works today to get chicks. Ben Knew what he was doing.
163 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:55:42pm |
re: #155 sngnsgt
It's things like this that make networks like PMSNBC irrelevant compared to other cable news channels and why their ratings are in the tank.
And people say Fox news is bad. This crap from MSNBC is disgraceful. They show video footage of a guy carrying a gun, but hide the face so you don't know its a black guy. Then they have a discussion about white racists with guns.
Disgusting.
164 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:55:59pm |
re: #162 Killgore Trout
A kite with a key on the string. It still works today to get chicks. Ben Knew what he was doing.
I'm going to regret asking this.
Have you tried it?
165 | Killgore Trout Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:57:08pm |
re: #164 EmmmieG
Works like a charm. Extra tight pantaloons help.
166 | solomonpanting Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:57:11pm |
re: #157 Cato the Elder
re: #152 Sharmuta
This was another incredible contribution:
They broke the mold.
Yeah, but 200 years is a long freakin' time to wait to be a millionaire. Most modern capitalists would rather steal. Just sayin'.
Unlike commie rulers?
167 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:57:51pm |
re: #162 Killgore Trout
A kite with a key on the string. It still works today to get chicks. Ben Knew what he was doing.
Chicks dig renaissance men.
168 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 9:58:13pm |
re: #161 freetoken
I decided not to copy the entire thing.
Problem: It's not our money. We don't own it collectively. The amount of money that would have to be taken from us to give everyone health care is huge, and there's a significant number of people who do not want to be taxed at that rate.
169 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:00:45pm |
It is now 10:00. EmmmieG has turned into a pumpkin.
Thank you, and good night.
170 | BatGuano Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:00:49pm |
re: #159 Cato the Elder
I told you: The first lesson was free.
Now show me the money.
There was no lesson. No money. Thank you any way.
171 | swamprat Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:02:06pm |
172 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:02:06pm |
re: #166 solomonpanting
Unlike commie rulers?
As far as I know, commie rulers measure things the same way bourgeois ones do. You know: 12 inches to the foot, 16 ounces to the pound, a pound of flesh for a missed payment.
You may wish to convert to metric.
173 | tradewind Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:02:35pm |
DC to be renamed Chicago-On-the-Potomac.
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
174 | VegasRick Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:03:27pm |
African Americans that are against this "health care reform" are ignored or villianized. The dems suck.
175 | solomonpanting Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:03:43pm |
176 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:03:57pm |
re: #163 Racer X
Fox new is bad, MSNBC is disgraceful (and worse), and those of us who can need to use our cognitive skills to filter out all of the bullshit.
My handy little rule? If it's on tv, it is probably bullshit.
177 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:03:58pm |
re: #170 BatGuano
There was no lesson. No money. Thank you any way.
You're welcome. Not all students come away satisfied. It's a matter of self-selection as much as aptitude.
178 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:07:36pm |
All this talk about Franklin- I'm getting a bit choked up. They were Statesmen, not politicians. I can't help but think they're rolling in their graves. How disappointing to think on them and then look at Washington today...
179 | BatGuano Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:07:59pm |
re: #177 Cato the Elder
Didn't I tell you that you won? Dark-Falcon and Salamntis are on your side. What is your problem?
180 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:08:19pm |
re: #161 freetoken
What is wealth?
It's the product of labor. An individual labors, produces something of value to others and creates wealth. This the Locke's "Life, Liberty, Property." Property, i.e. wealth comes from an individuals labor, which is maximized in a free society by allowing each individual to pursue their own self interest, their happiness. But wealth comes at a cost, an individual spends part of the life creating this wealth, making the non-labor part of his life more enjoyable. Property and life are interchangeable, we government starts demanding part of my wealth, they are demanding part of my life.
The Constitution is a in a sense a civil contract. It sets forth an agreement between sovereign individuals what common tasks are better done by a central government. Health care is not one of them.
The Constitution has a process to include health care should we as a society choose. The amendment process.
181 | reine.de.tout Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:08:43pm |
Obama’s Bait and Switch
Thomas Sowell
182 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:09:05pm |
re: #179 BatGuano
Didn't I tell you that you won? Dark-Falcon and Salamntis are on your side. What is your problem?
Please excuse me. I thought we were bantering.
Carry on!
;^)
183 | VegasRick Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:09:18pm |
re: #178 Sharmuta
All this talk about Franklin- I'm getting a bit choked up. They were Statesmen, not politicians. I can't help but think they're rolling in their graves. How disappointing to think on them and then look at Washington today...
Upding for sure. This bunch could give a shit less about America.
184 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:09:54pm |
re: #176 Slumbering Behemoth
My handy little rule? If it's on tv, it is probably bullshit.
On that, I don't watch tv much, but I do check out the local listings on line every day. I hope to see something I might like to watch (like that NOVA program last night), but more often than not I simply find reasons to confirm my distaste for television.
:sigh: This is what the local Fox station was running as a two hour program tonight:
Octomom: The Incredible Unseen Footage
No, I did not watch.
185 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:11:24pm |
re: #172 Cato the Elder
As far as I know, commie rulers measure things the same way bourgeois ones do. You know: 12 inches to the foot, 16 ounces to the pound, a pound of flesh for a missed payment.
You may wish to convert to metric.
When the five year plan falls short the amount to make a bushel of grain decreases so that the total number of bushels meets the 5 year plan.
Or in Seattle when the light rail is 7 years late, 11 miles short and $10 Billion over budget candidates involved still claim on time and on budget.
186 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:12:59pm |
re: #184 Slumbering Behemoth
On that, I don't watch tv much, but I do check out the local listings on line every day. I hope to see something I might like to watch (like that NOVA program last night), but more often than not I simply find reasons to confirm my distaste for television.
:sigh: This is what the local Fox station was running as a two hour program tonight:
Octomom: The Incredible Unseen Footage
No, I did not watch.
The one on Mandelbrot?
187 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:14:34pm |
re: #185 jcm
When the five year plan falls short the amount to make a bushel of grain decreases so that the total number of bushels meets the 5 year plan.
Or in Seattle when the light rail is 7 years late, 11 miles short and $10 Billion over budget candidates involved still claim on time and on budget.
Proving that capitalist and communist rulers both measure the same way: falsely.
Or did I miss the news about Seattle succumbing to Marxism? Bill Gates might be alarmed to hear it.
188 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:14:36pm |
re: #183 VegasRick
Franklin is my second favorite Founder, just behind Washington. We owe everything to these two men. They gave us their best, and today we get the self-interested. Depressing.
189 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:14:54pm |
re: #161 freetoken
Well yes, utopia would be preferable to real life but, having said that and hoping with you that "However, I can see a day coming, hopefully not for a few decades yet," (is true for you; it isn't for an awful lot of people), I have to say that I don't disagree with you in principle; where I suspect we part ways is in having health care as a "right" protected by the Constitution.
But you have also, probably inadvertently, hit on another of my "gripes" about the health insurance or providing for health care via the Federal Government. It WILL be necessarily more expensive and will take revenue from other worthy projects as well.
I mean, we all know that if the Fed does it, it immediately does two things: a) creates regulations and, in some instances, whole new bureaucracy's which require funding - sometimes immense funding and b) get the individual States involved virtually immediately as with Medicaid and Medicare disability insurance (the determination of whether or not you are eligible for SSDI, a Federal Program, has been "outsourced" by the Feds to the States, for example).
This is just one of the problems I have with giving health care the status of a "right" under our Constitution. It will create yet another entrenched or enhanced, regulators and at least one (Federal) and I'll wager two (include the States) levels of approval, and time delays and cost to delivering health care to those who NEED it but can't afford it.
190 | tradewind Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:16:39pm |
When we get Obamacare, sure hope they appoint someone in charge of drug policies as smart as those wonderful NHS types in the UK...
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
/spitting nails/
191 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:16:48pm |
re: #184 Slumbering Behemoth
On that, I don't watch tv much, but I do check out the local listings on line every day. I hope to see something I might like to watch (like that NOVA program last night), but more often than not I simply find reasons to confirm my distaste for television.
:sigh: This is what the local Fox station was running as a two hour program tonight:
Octomom: The Incredible Unseen Footage
No, I did not watch.
With tube stuff stuck inside your head
You'll one day wish that you were dead.
No fear. The remedy's at hand.
Pick up a book, regain command.
193 | VegasRick Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:17:26pm |
"0" is a socialist and almost a communist. The American people (even those that voted for him) are starting to wake up and realize what a sham they bought into. The dems have gone way too far and folks are starting to see that. They (the dems) can try and push all this bullshit through but they will pay the price. Thank GOD that he blessed us as HE has.
194 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:17:53pm |
re: #186 jcm
Yes, that's the one. Pretty interesting stuff, even if it was a bit over my head.
195 | tradewind Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:18:16pm |
re: #174 VegasRick
Because their mindset is ' where are they gonna go ? '
196 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:18:23pm |
re: #187 Cato the Elder
Proving that capitalist and communist rulers both measure the same way: falsely.
Or did I miss the news about Seattle succumbing to Marxism? Bill Gates might be alarmed to hear it.
Bill is in Bellevue (minor distinction).
Any place that elects Baghdad Jim McDimwitt with 80% of the vote has issues.
197 | reine.de.tout Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:18:36pm |
4re: #176 Slumbering Behemoth
Fox new is bad, MSNBC is disgraceful (and worse), and those of us who can need to use our cognitive skills to filter out all of the bullshit.
My handy little rule? If it's on tv, it is probably bullshit.
I simply limit my viewing to Dog the Bounty Hunter.
Works out well.
199 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:19:34pm |
re: #192 realwest
Thank you, sir.
200 | Racer X Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:19:59pm |
re: #190 tradewind
When we get Obamacare, sure hope they appoint someone in charge of drug policies as smart as those wonderful NHS types in the UK...
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
/spitting nails/
Oh man, that is supremely fucked up.
202 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:20:29pm |
re: #196 jcm
Bill is in Bellevue (minor distinction).
Any place that elects Baghdad Jim McDimwitt with 80% of the vote has issues.
Maybe Bill Gates will leave America a trust fund for 200 years. I bet it still wouldn't pay off the deficit.
203 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:20:37pm |
re: #193 VegasRick
"0" is a socialist and almost a communist. The American people (even those that voted for him) are starting to wake up and realize what a sham they bought into. The dems have gone way too far and folks are starting to see that. They (the dems) can try and push all this bullshit through but they will pay the price. Thank GOD that he blessed us as HE has.
Yes. He hath given us wingbats with AR-7s, and Sarah Palin, and Glenn Beck. How might we lose?
204 | tradewind Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:20:51pm |
re: #200 Racer X
Which should be the bumper sticker for this health care debacle.
205 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:21:21pm |
re: #197 reine.de.tout
Oh, you're one of those people.
/no good, cable watching, sonufa :mumblemumble:
//
206 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:22:02pm |
re: #199 Slumbering Behemoth Was my pleasure, I assure you!
207 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:24:14pm |
re: #202 Sharmuta
Maybe Bill Gates will leave America a trust fund for 200 years. I bet it still wouldn't pay off the deficit.
That aside, look at the the impact he has had on the economy. All Windows jokes and gripes aside, look at how Microsoft has changed how business is done.
208 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:25:24pm |
re: #190 tradewind
When we get Obamacare, sure hope they appoint someone in charge of drug policies as smart as those wonderful NHS types in the UK...
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
/spitting nails/
Disarm pedophiles and rapists.
209 | itellu3times Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:26:08pm |
re: #191 Cato the Elder
Linear text and books is dead,
Words by old guys clog your head.
Give me what comes on tvs,
Let the birdies keep live trees!
211 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:26:35pm |
re: #207 jcm
That aside, look at the the impact he has had on the economy. All Windows jokes and gripes aside, look at how Microsoft has changed how business is done.
Absolutely. Never before has so much foul language and cursing been heard in the workplace. Truly revolutionary.
/proud, long-time Windows user who can take a joke
213 | itellu3times Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:27:16pm |
214 | tradewind Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:27:51pm |
re: #203 Cato the Elder
Glenn Beck was well known before Obama held his first office, and Cato, you might want to search for an escape clause in that 75-year ground lease of your head that you granted Sarah Palin...improbable as it seems in this economy, property values... even intellectual ones... could bounce back and you 'd be stuck with her.
215 | realwest Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:28:25pm |
Well y'all it's been grand as usual, but I gotta get some sleep - lots, I say LOTS of chores tomorrow!
I hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.
Good Night, All.
216 | Kosh's Shadow Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:28:33pm |
re: #207 jcm
That aside, look at the the impact he has had on the economy. All Windows jokes and gripes aside, look at how Microsoft has changed how business is done.
Yes, now companies can ship product before it works, and then charge the customers extra for the working version.
217 | tradewind Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:29:32pm |
re: #208 jcm
In my part of the country, we're a little more body-part specific, but they are often neutralized.
Mike Huckabee could tell you about that...
218 | VegasRick Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:29:45pm |
219 | itellu3times Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:30:23pm |
re: #216 Kosh's Shadow
Yes, now companies can ship product before it works, and then charge the customers extra for the working version.
Charge people for support so you can ship them updates that break the product so you can charge them for more support.
221 | calcajun Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:31:07pm |
re: #169 EmmmieG
It is now 10:00. EmmmieG has turned into a pumpkin.
Thank you, and good night.
Gourd riddance?//
222 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:31:15pm |
re: #215 realwest
Take it slow, Real. Conserve your energy. 'Nite.
223 | tradewind Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:31:15pm |
re: #201 realwest
I couldn't have said it better, real.
Hope you're doing well.
224 | Sharmuta Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:31:41pm |
re: #207 jcm
That aside, look at the the impact he has had on the economy. All Windows jokes and gripes aside, look at how Microsoft has changed how business is done.
The computer has truly revolutionized our world, as has the internet.
225 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:32:08pm |
re: #216 Kosh's Shadow
Yes, now companies can ship product before it works, and then charge the customers extra for the working version.
I side all jokes aside! Now be serious!
;-P
LOL!
I ran windows update on my work computer today...
Then spent 3 hours fixing the damage windows update did...
226 | calcajun Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:32:36pm |
227 | Kosh's Shadow Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:32:54pm |
re: #219 itellu3times
Charge people for support so you can ship them updates that break the product so you can charge them for more support.
And make sure you're tied in with the hardware maker so you can't take the product you already own and run it on the new hardware.
And when you have to replace all your old accessories to make them work with the new version
Goodnight
228 | Holidays are Family Fun Time Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:32:59pm |
I'm lost in the audio performance of Milton's Paradise Lost.
Have a great evening and weet dreams all!
229 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:33:40pm |
re: #209 itellu3times
Linear text and books is dead,
Words by old guys clog your head.Give me what comes on tvs,
Let the birdies keep live trees!
"Linear text may be long dead,
But, Lord, do hear my plea," he said.
"Let not my time appointed be
Before I've mastered Linear B!"
"Linear B's a snap," she noted,
"Why, I learned that before I'd voted.
You want a task to make you pray?
Just try your hand at Linear A!"
230 | VegasRick Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:34:20pm |
231 | Kosh's Shadow Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:34:38pm |
re: #225 jcm
I side all jokes aside! Now be serious!
;-P
LOL!
I ran windows update on my work computer today...
Then spent 3 hours fixing the damage windows update did...
Sounds like my Blackberry update tonight
232 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:34:43pm |
re: #218 VegasRick
Your folks are way OVERREACHING!
I'd advise you not to bring my parents into this. There are limits.
233 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:35:35pm |
re: #199 Slumbering Behemoth
Thank you, sir.
I'll find you some pretty fractal art if you want...
Like I said in another response, it was a lecture from Mandlebrot and the beauty of the math that got me into the field.
[Link: Jeddaka.deviantart.com...]
Notice the branchings? What a fractal means is "fractional dimensional." Do you remember basic calculus where you took an integral as the area under a curve and in essence you added one dimensional lines together to make a two dimensional area? Imagine that you summed differently and didn't quite make it to two dimensions. Somewhere between 1 and @ D. Fractals fill in the space between. Or perhaps between zero and one or three and four. Fractal mathematics is a way to think of 2.176 (or whatever) dimensions.
[Link: DigitalPainters.deviantart.com...]
Now the relationship of these things to nonlinearity comes from the fact that even though nonlinear systems are very difficult to predict, the orbits of their evolutions in phase space describe fractals. These are the strange attractors.
[Link: d-b-c.deviantart.com...]
Just visually, you can see how this might relate to the physics of fluids.
and all other matter of patterns.
That notion of iteration is part of how you use computers to look at these things. At the end of the day, there is a close relationship between systems of differential equations and iterated maps. This ends up being key to understanding the modeling of many systems including climate systems.
[Link: blkcat13.deviantart.com...]
234 | Killian Bundy Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:36:41pm |
Asia is up across the board and U.S. futures are significantly to the upside at the moment.
/add some positive employment and leading indicator numbers later this morning and we could be in for a triple digit DOW rally
235 | jcm Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:37:17pm |
Goodnight Honcos...
John Adams, Defence Of The Constitutions Of Government Of The United States
It is indeed a “most excellent maxim, that the original and fountain of all just power and government is in the people;" and if ever this maxim was fully demonstrated and exemplified among men, it was in the late American Revolution, where thirteen governments were taken down from the foundation, and new ones elected wholly by the people, as an architect would pull down an old building and erect a new one. There will be no dispute, then, with Cicero, when he says, “A mind well instructed by the light of nature, will pay obedience," willingly “to none but such as command, direct, or govern for its good or benefit;" nor will our author’s inferences from these passages from that oracle of human wisdom be denied:
RTWT.
236 | Desert Dog Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:38:04pm |
re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote
I'll find you some pretty fractal art if you want...
Like I said in another response, it was a lecture from Mandlebrot and the beauty of the math that got me into the field.
[Link: Jeddaka.deviantart.com...]
Notice the branchings? What a fractal means is "fractional dimensional." Do you remember basic calculus where you took an integral as the area under a curve and in essence you added one dimensional lines together to make a two dimensional area? Imagine that you summed differently and didn't quite make it to two dimensions. Somewhere between 1 and @ D. Fractals fill in the space between. Or perhaps between zero and one or three and four. Fractal mathematics is a way to think of 2.176 (or whatever) dimensions.
[Link: DigitalPainters.deviantart.com...]
Now the relationship of these things to nonlinearity comes from the fact that even though nonlinear systems are very difficult to predict, the orbits of their evolutions in phase space describe fractals. These are the strange attractors.
[Link: d-b-c.deviantart.com...]
Just visually, you can see how this might relate to the physics of fluids.
and all other matter of patterns.
That notion of iteration is part of how you use computers to look at these things. At the end of the day, there is a close relationship between systems of differential equations and iterated maps. This ends up being key to understanding the modeling of many systems including climate systems.
[Link: blkcat13.deviantart.com...]
Art for Nerds! How cool is that?!
237 | VegasRick Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:38:24pm |
238 | calcajun Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:38:29pm |
239 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:39:06pm |
re: #217 tradewind
These things do not work, sadly. The crimes that these type of scumbags commit are not those motivated by sexual desire, but motivated by a disire of/for violence, dominance, torture, and terrorism.
Despite certain 'alterations', such criminals can (and have) continue to victimize people in depraved ways.
240 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:39:07pm |
re: #236 Desert Dog
Art for Nerds! How cool is that?!
At the end of the day, you could seriously argue that all of physics is art for nerds. It just happens to make correct predictions and probe the mind of G-d while you are at it :)
241 | Desert Dog Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:40:41pm |
re: #240 LudwigVanQuixote
At the end of the day, you could seriously argue that all of physics is art for nerds. It just happens to make correct predictions and probe the mind of G-d while you are at it :)
It's was a joke, Ludwig...you know, ha ha
Those are beautiful and amazing the way they are created. Thanks for posting them.
242 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:40:58pm |
re: #237 VegasRick
My father taught me a lot of things, one was "show them 80% of what you have, this way you always have some fallback". That has always worked for me.
He was right, but overgenerous.
You haven't seen 10% of my holdings.
243 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:42:12pm |
re: #241 Desert Dog
It's was a joke, Ludwig...you know, ha ha
Those are beautiful and amazing the way they are created. Thanks for posting them.
Ohhh, I'm sorry, I honestly took no offense. I am really glad you liked them.
244 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:45:17pm |
By the way, if anyone is interested in seeing more of what the art world has done with the various computer packages used to make fractals, look here...
[Link: www.deviantart.com...]
This is my direct field. Well the physics and mathematics end of it at least...
245 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:47:00pm |
She said: "You can't beat a Mandelbrot set
For making a lady hot, bothered, and wet."
She responded: "So, what else have you tried?
Come, now, take a walk on the Lydia side!"
246 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:50:51pm |
re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote
I'll find you some pretty fractal art if you want...
Back in the '90s I had a program that you could download for free. You punch in some numbers and it would generate an image that you could zoom into almost infinitely. Awesome stuff.
Do you remember basic calculus where you took...
Basic calculus? That I took? Sir, you presume too much of my educational background, and give my intellect much more credit than it deserves. I am a high school dropout. =)
Still, I do find this stuff fascinating, and do like to hear/read people explain it. Just don't be disappointed if I can't keep up.
247 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:54:10pm |
re: #246 Slumbering Behemoth
Basic calculus? That I took? Sir, you presume too much of my educational background, and give my intellect much more credit than it deserves. I am a high school dropout. =)
Still, I do find this stuff fascinating, and do like to hear/read people explain it. Just don't be disappointed if I can't keep up.
First off you are great with me. Ask away.
For everyone else who is interested, I also just posted this link to
12.003 Atmosphere, Ocean and Climate Dynamics, an open web course from MIT.
[Link: ocw.mit.edu...]
248 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:55:25pm |
249 | Flyers1974 Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:55:37pm |
re: #245 Cato the Elder
Cato e-mail incoming to you.
250 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:55:39pm |
re: #245 Cato the Elder
She said: "You can't beat a Mandelbrot set
For making a lady hot, bothered, and wet."She responded: "So, what else have you tried?
Come, now, take a walk on the Lydia side!"
No Cato, you meet her at the Hopf... then you feel a strange attraction and you find out her name is Julia.
251 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:56:10pm |
252 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:58:02pm |
re: #102 EmmmieG
Item 1: The idea that God gave us certain inalienable rights is in the Declaration of Independence, so it's an idea with a pretty long history. Of course, the previous idea was that the King gave you your rights.
The idea that an Englishman has rights entirely of his own, not to be taken away by the crown, long predates the Declaration.
253 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:59:37pm |
re: #244 LudwigVanQuixote
That site has some pretty great artwork. The guy who used to do the "Gone With the Blastwave" webcomic sometimes puts stuff up there.
254 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:00:22pm |
re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist
Item 1: The idea that God gave us certain inalienable rights is in the Declaration of Independence, so it's an idea with a pretty long history. Of course, the previous idea was that the King gave you your rights.
The idea that an Englishman has rights entirely of his own, not to be taken away by the crown, long predates the Declaration.
Magna Carta was a Commie Conspiracy!!! Get your guns!!!
///
255 | NY Nana Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:00:35pm |
256 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:00:54pm |
re: #253 Slumbering Behemoth
That site has some pretty great artwork. The guy who used to do the "Gone With the Blastwave" webcomic sometimes puts stuff up there.
And a whole bunch of other rather famous artists. I have liked DA for some time.
257 | Pvt Bin Jammin Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:00:55pm |
Just saying a hi and bye to you lizards.
"Yesterday, all my troubles seemed to melt away..."
Take care, all. I am to bed.
259 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:02:21pm |
re: #249 Flyers1974
Cato e-mail incoming to you.
Nothing so far...you got the right addy?
try [first word of my nick]senior[at]gmail
260 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:02:38pm |
re: #245 Cato the Elder
Should I have put those fractal puns in verse, or would that have caused too much chaos?
261 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:04:42pm |
re: #260 LudwigVanQuixote
Should I have put those fractal puns in verse, or would that have caused too much chaos?
Not chaos, necessarily, but a whole string of unfortunate incidents...
262 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:04:59pm |
re: #247 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm not stupid, but I have no trouble at all admitting that I am ignorant on a great many topics, and that I short shrifted my education early on. The latter two problems are fixable, the former is incurable.
263 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:06:37pm |
re: #249 Flyers1974
Cato e-mail incoming to you.
Nevermind, Flyers - just checked FB. Thank you! Will be in touch.
264 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:06:51pm |
re: #261 Cato the Elder
Not chaos, necessarily, but a whole string of unfortunate incidents...
I used to do string theory (really) before I got into the chaos game, but it is very difficult to make puns about the Polyakov Action. And the Heterotic string is a pun of it's own, but it gets old very quickly - and honestly if you can do something with Kalubi Yau manifold, my hat is off to you.
266 | Desert Dog Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:07:57pm |
re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist
Item 1: The idea that God gave us certain inalienable rights is in the Declaration of Independence, so it's an idea with a pretty long history. Of course, the previous idea was that the King gave you your rights.
The idea that an Englishman has rights entirely of his own, not to be taken away by the crown, long predates the Declaration.
A few of the first written portions of the English constitution:
The idea that the King was subject to the law resounded heavily in English history. The idea that rights and legal matters are "god given" rather than bestowed by a monarch is and was a very novel idea. THANK YOU ENGLAND!
267 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:08:25pm |
re: #262 Slumbering Behemoth
I'm not stupid, but I have no trouble at all admitting that I am ignorant on a great many topics, and that I short shrifted my education early on. The latter two problems are fixable, the former is incurable.
So, if you love this stuff and really want to know... you can learn it. Step one is go to a bookstore and get one of those forgotten calculus books and work through it. I teach this stuff as part of my job. I promise to help you if you wish.
268 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:08:44pm |
re: #254 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist
Magna Carta was a Commie Conspiracy!!! Get your guns!!!///
Speaking of which, John Adams writes in the MA constitution:
"The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence."
What a nice CLEAR sentence, Mr. Adams, with no vague clauses flapping around it! You get a gold star! None of this 'not be infringed upon' and rambling references to militias.
269 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:08:48pm |
re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist
Your post made me recall this:
"The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the crown. It may be frail - its roof may shake - the wind may blow through it - the storm may enter - the rain may enter - but the King of England cannot enter."
270 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:10:09pm |
re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist
Speaking of which, John Adams writes in the MA constitution:
"The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence."
What a nice CLEAR sentence, Mr. Adams, with no vague clauses flapping around it! You get a gold star! None of this 'not be infringed upon' and rambling references to militias.
Adams is my favorite president for many reasons.
IMHO, he was the smartest, the most honest, the most decent as a human being and the most prophetic about how America should work.
272 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:12:22pm |
re: #264 LudwigVanQuixote
I used to do string theory (really) before I got into the chaos game, but it is very difficult to make puns about the Polyakov Action. And the Heterotic string is a pun of it's own, but it gets old very quickly - and honestly if you can do something with Kalubi Yau manifold, my hat is off to you.
Hoo boy. I love a challenge.
Favorited for later redemption.
(May not be puns; will limericks do?)
G'night, all!
273 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:12:24pm |
re: #266 Desert Dog
A few of the first written portions of the English constitution:
The idea that the King was subject to the law resounded heavily in English history. The idea that rights and legal matters are "god given" rather than bestowed by a monarch is and was a very novel idea. THANK YOU ENGLAND!
The idea that the king is subject to the law is invoked many times in regards to both Saul and David.
As a direct analog to Magna Carta, the story about David pouring out the water (that his men brought back to him after breaking through Philistine lines) directly refers to this.
274 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:14:16pm |
More from Adams, this time of the encouragement of literature:
"Wisdom, and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools and grammar schools in the towns; to encourage private societies and public institutions, rewards and immunities, for the promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, commerce, trades, manufactures, and a natural history of the country; to countenance and inculcate the principles of humanity and general benevolence, public and private charity, industry and frugality, honesty and punctuality in their dealings; sincerity, good humor, and all social affections, and generous sentiments among the people. "
275 | karmic_inquisitor Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:14:30pm |
[Link: www.rasmussenreports.com...]
Looks like Obama has lost partisan edge on health care.
Rasmussen is calling it a "collapse".
We may very well end up with a face saving "reform" bill that actually makes insurance less competitive and harder to get. A sort of "don't ask don't tell" debacle.
276 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:15:12pm |
re: #270 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist
Adams is my favorite president for many reasons.IMHO, he was the smartest, the most honest, the most decent as a human being and the most prophetic about how America should work.
I like Adams. Actually, I like the Adamses. Abigail was a delightful personality.
277 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:16:50pm |
re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist
I like Adams. Actually, I like the Adamses. Abigail was a delightful personality.
I adore her.
When someone asks me what Aishet Chayil means, I think of her.
278 | transient Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:18:30pm |
Wish I'd been around for the Health Care reform discussions. Bet that was interesting.
279 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:19:00pm |
re: #273 LudwigVanQuixote
The idea that the king is subject to the law is invoked many times in regards to both Saul and David.
As a direct analog to Magna Carta, the story about David pouring out the water (that his men brought back to him after breaking through Philistine lines) directly refers to this.
In fact, the whole idea that even the king may not mock God (gods) goes back much further than English history, and is found at the foundation of not only Judaism but also of many, many "pagan" ethics. For example the notion that there is something inviolable about the traveler (Greek ΧΕΝΟΣ = both stranger and guest) or that even the ruler cannot deny decent burial (Antigone).
280 | Desert Dog Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:19:11pm |
re: #273 LudwigVanQuixote
The idea that the king is subject to the law is invoked many times in regards to both Saul and David.
As a direct analog to Magna Carta, the story about David pouring out the water (that his men brought back to him after breaking through Philistine lines) directly refers to this.
We are fortunate here in the west that our societies developed with ideas such as this one. That our leaders are not above the law. Of course, it took a few thousand sometime bloody years to get to were we are now. The biblical examples, the Greek City States, the Roman Republic, even the leges barbarorum all have contributed.
281 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:20:00pm |
re: #267 LudwigVanQuixote
I would have to start with some very basic algebra, I think. Math, for me, is like weights to a body-builder. If I am not using it every day, that 'muscle' in my brain grows weak and withers.
Other things seem to stick, but math? Not so much.
You are most gracious in your offer, and I appreciate it. Worse than that, I will remember it. You may find me bugging you more than you like in the future. :)
282 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:21:02pm |
283 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:21:03pm |
re: #280 Desert Dog
We are fortunate here in the west that our societies developed with ideas such as this one. That our leaders are not above the law. Of course, it took a few thousand sometime bloody years to get to were we are now. The biblical examples, the Greek City States, the Roman Republic, even the leges barbarorum all have contributed.
As have, for example, the Vedas, the Upanishads, and the Ahadith. No, not all of them. But even the Inquisition was progress compared to what came before.
284 | karmic_inquisitor Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:22:20pm |
285 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:24:00pm |
re: #281 Slumbering Behemoth
I would have to start with some very basic algebra, I think. Math, for me, is like weights to a body-builder. If I am not using it every day, that 'muscle' in my brain grows weak and withers.
Other things seem to stick, but math? Not so much.
You are most gracious in your offer, and I appreciate it. Worse than that, I will remember it. You may find me bugging you more than you like in the future. :)
I never make such an offer lightly. It was sincere. If you need to start with algebra we will start there.
286 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:24:36pm |
re: #274 SanFranciscoZionist
Principles of humanity?! Obviously he was a filthy, degenerate secularist!
/
287 | Desert Dog Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:25:22pm |
I could talk about this stuff all night, but alas, my eyelids are feeling gravity's pull, and Mrs. Desert Dog is yelling at me to come to bed in a shrill, yet still sexy in an odd way. Good night all, play nice.
288 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:25:37pm |
re: #282 SanFranciscoZionist
I never thought of that, but it does suit her marvelously well, doesn't it?
I love their letters. Honestly, she is one of the reasons I like John so much. I mean, any man who can be loved by a lady like that, must have a bunch going for him.
289 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:27:46pm |
re: #285 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't care what everyone else says about you, you're cool in my book.
/I have no idea what anyone says about you, that line is just funny to me.
290 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:27:50pm |
re: #283 Cato the Elder
I've been curious for some time Cato... You are obviously a ridiculously well educated Roman. Are you a professor somewhere?
291 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:29:03pm |
re: #289 Slumbering Behemoth
I don't care what everyone else says about you, you're cool in my book.
/I have no idea what anyone says about you, that line is just funny to me.
I warn you though, I am also serious about actually doing it if we start. If you want we will get you through calculus. Your dessert will be a real intro to fractals.
292 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:31:00pm |
re: #279 Cato the Elder
In fact, the whole idea that even the king may not mock God (gods) goes back much further than English history, and is found at the foundation of not only Judaism but also of many, many "pagan" ethics. For example the notion that there is something inviolable about the traveler (Greek ΧΕΝΟΣ = both stranger and guest) or that even the ruler cannot deny decent burial (Antigone).
But the story I was referring to is a specific case where the king was not allowed to do a secular thing that a common Jew was not.
293 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:32:29pm |
re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote
Not to worry, I will not waste your time until I am serious about getting into it. You may not get a request from me for quite some time, but I will remember your generous offer.
294 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:33:20pm |
re: #293 Slumbering Behemoth
Not to worry, I will not waste your time until I am serious about getting into it. You may not get a request from me for quite some time, but I will remember your generous offer.
It is for real and will remain open for the foreseeable future.
295 | Cato the Elder Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:37:14pm |
re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote
But the story I was referring to is a specific case where the king was not allowed to do a secular thing that a common Jew was not.
I misread. I'll go back again.
re: #290 LudwigVanQuixote
I've been curious for some time Cato... You are obviously a ridiculously well educated Roman. Are you a professor somewhere?
Alas, no. Just another humble toiler in the vineyards of the word.
And I may want to join SB in your online class. My math would be a disgrace to a broken abacus.
296 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:43:44pm |
re: #295 Cato the Elder
Alas, no. Just another humble toiler in the vineyards of the word.
And I may want to join SB in your online class. My math would be a disgrace to a broken abacus.
My friend, I would be honored to share any knowledge I have with you. If you really want to get into it, then we'll have to start talking via e-mail.
297 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:48:55pm |
re: #294 LudwigVanQuixote
When I was younger, I used to know someone who liked to often say "Knowledge is a gift". At the time I thought it was a stupid thing to say. I figured I had a right to know the things that I seek to know (within reason of course, I knew I had no "right" to classified gov't info, private peoples personal info, etc.).
Later in life, after seeing how people would horde knowledge for their own benefit, for their own advantage, professional or otherwise, I saw the wisdom in those words.
People who impart their knowledge on others, who take the time to teach others the things they have learned, truly are giving a gift to those who seek it.
298 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:49:49pm |
re: #295 Cato the Elder
My math would be a disgrace to a broken abacus.
That right there is funny, I don't care who you are.
299 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Aug 19, 2009 11:52:51pm |
re: #295 Cato the Elder
The story I was referring to is in Second Kings. There is a rather cryptic bit about David trying to relieve a town that was besieged by Philistines - who are camped out in the fields of the town. He says "Oh, if only I had some water..." and some of his men break through the lines and go to the well at the gates of the town to bring David some water. David comments that he could not accept the water and pours it out.
Now there is a gemara that fills in the details.
1st off, water is a reference to the water of life (i.e. Torah Law) and the Well at the city gates is the town Elders. David needs a legal issue resolved.
David has a legal problem. The Philistines are in the ready to harvest grain fields of the town. A great stratagem is to burn the fields. However, if he does this, he is destroying the income and livelihoods of the townspeople who need the harvest.
David wants to know if it is ok to destroy someone's property with the intent of paying them back in the future.
The men ask the town Elders this. They reply that no, a Jew can not break someone else's property and then say, I'll pay you back. However, as the king, who are they to say no.
David pours the water out.
I.e. He will find another way to deal with the Philistines. He will not do something a common Jew can not just because he is king.
300 | shiplord kirel Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:05:24am |
re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist
Item 1: The idea that God gave us certain inalienable rights is in the Declaration of Independence, so it's an idea with a pretty long history. Of course, the previous idea was that the King gave you your rights.
The idea that an Englishman has rights entirely of his own, not to be taken away by the crown, long predates the Declaration.
"A man's home is his castle"
T
he poorest and most humble citizen or subject may, in his cottage, no matter how frail or humble it is, bid defiance to all the powers of the state; the wind, the storm and the sunshine alike may enter through its weather-beaten parts, but the king may not enter against its owner's will; none of his forces dare to cross the threshold of even the humblest tenement without its owner's consent.
301 | Silvergirl Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:34:31am |
Even though I didn't comment tonight I read the whole thread. I really liked the Ben Franklin dialogue between Emmmie and Sharmuta. I know others were chiming in, so you're not chopped liver jcm, realwest, KT.
Sorry about your friend moving, FBV. It has to help living in this age of computers and cell phones and all these ways of almost being there but not. I clicked both your YouTubes. :-)
I loved the undulating asphalt photo once I got over the initial stab of motion sickness.
LVQuixote and SlumberingB's exchange was goodwill and rapport. Add Cato and the broken abacus and it was even better.
Silvergirl, enjoying the lurk.
302 | charles_martel Thu, Aug 20, 2009 7:40:23am |
re: #24 Racer X
Leftists do not understand that if something requires time, effort, or money from someone else, then it is not your right to have it.
That's my quote of the day! Thanks.
304 | SecondComing Thu, Aug 20, 2009 8:45:56am |
re: #42 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I am so bummed right now. Just found out that the very best (real) friend I've ever had in my life is moving away from me. I'm talking "Stand By Me" friend.
Before I vomit, let me post this little ditty...
FBV,
You should go rent "I Love You, Man". It's somewhat related to this. The guy doesn't lose his best friend, he's trying to find one. Funny and might be what you need.
Oh and the mislink, hahahahahahaha
305 | SecondComing Thu, Aug 20, 2009 8:49:16am |
re: #8 Dark_Falcon
For the usual reason, I won't comment on things related to the iPhone here.
What's the deal? Have you ever owned one?