WaPo Poll: Most Americans Oppose Afghanistan War

US News • Views: 2,133

As Afghanistan holds presidential elections, a new poll shows that a majority of Americans oppose the war — and there’s a stark difference on party lines.

A majority of Americans now see the war in Afghanistan as not worth fighting, and just a quarter say more U.S. troops should be sent to the country, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

Most have confidence in the ability of the United States to meet its primary goals of defeating the Taliban, facilitating economic development, and molding an honest and effective Afghan government, but few say Thursday’s elections there are likely to produce such a government.

When it comes to the baseline question, 42 percent of Americans say the United States is winning in Afghanistan; about as many, 36 percent, say it is losing. …

Overall, seven in 10 Democrats say the war has not been worth its costs, and fewer than one in five support an increase in troop levels.

Republicans (70 percent say it is worth fighting) and conservatives (58 percent) remain the war’s strongest backers, and the issue provides a rare point of GOP support for Obama’s policies. A narrow majority of conservatives approve of the president’s handling of the war (52 percent), as do more than four in 10 Republicans (43 percent).

Among all adults, 51 percent now say the war is not worth fighting, up six percentage points since last month and 10 since March. Less than half, 47 percent, say the war is worth its costs. Those strongly opposed (41 percent) outweigh strong proponents (31 percent).

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251 comments
1 harrylook  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:38:15am

Short f-ing memories...

2 Gang of One  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:38:19am

But it's all Bush's fault ... we inherited it!
///libs

3 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:38:55am

Win the war.

4 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:39:35am

I heard about this poll on the way home yesterday. I was saddened, but somehow not surprised. We haven't heard the snooze button, we've turned off the alarm clock.

5 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:39:37am

the next 'Big Thing'...

6 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:40:00am
7 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:40:09am

re: #4 Ward Cleaver

I heard about this poll on the way home yesterday. I was saddened, but somehow not surprised. We haven't heard hit the snooze button, we've turned off the alarm clock.

Gah! PIMF

8 Diamond Bullet  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:40:24am

I've always preferred being right to being popular. (Also why I'm no longer a registered (d)Emocrat).

9 freedombilly  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:41:06am

And if you listen closely you can hear champagne bottles popping at the Washington Post.

10 Gearhead  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:41:43am

No numbers for the percent who oppose giving up in the middle of a fight?

11 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:41:58am

How sad. How very, very sad. I think the cost has been worth it to prevent another attack on our country. An ounce of protection, you could say.

12 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:42:02am

Dennis Miller was commenting yesterday on how the anti-war movement has become quiet since Teh Won took office, yet the policy has remained pretty much unchanged.

13 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:42:09am

And this is the war that should have been fought according to all the lefties who opposed the US efforts in Iraq.

Now, where are those same people? Oh right, they're back to having their head in the sand - ignoring the threat that failed states pose when terrorists like al Qaeda make them a safe haven from which to plot, train, and expedite terror attacks around the world.

Now, most of these Democrats oppose the war in Afghanistan? It's little wonder that the media is talking up the death toll among US troops there, even though we're nearly 8 years from the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent US invasion of Afghanistan to eliminate the Taliban who harbored al Qaeda.

They too want to ignore the threat, which hasn't left, but migrated into the border region with Pakistan, and from where terrorists from al Qaeda continue to carry out their deadly intent.

14 Kragar  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:43:24am

Fight to win. If its nothing more than patrols with ROE which are death sentences and no offensives into known enemy held territory, then its a waste of lives and time.

15 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:44:32am

In a related note, those who oppose the war thought human rights in pre-war Afghanistan were "just ducky."
/

16 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:44:35am

re: #13 lawhawk

And this is the war that should have been fought according to all the lefties who opposed the US efforts in Iraq.

Now, where are those same people? Oh right, they're back to having their head in the sand - ignoring the threat that failed states pose when terrorists like al Qaeda make them a safe haven from which to plot, train, and expedite terror attacks around the world.

Now, most of these Democrats oppose the war in Afghanistan? It's little wonder that the media is talking up the death toll among US troops there, even though we're nearly 8 years from the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent US invasion of Afghanistan to eliminate the Taliban who harbored al Qaeda.

They too want to ignore the threat, which hasn't left, but migrated into the border region with Pakistan, and from where terrorists from al Qaeda continue to carry out their deadly intent.


And don't forget which side of the aisle blamed all of A'stan's problems leading up to 9/11 on AMERICA AND THE WEST ABANDONING A'STAN AFTER ITS CIVIL WAR.

Their solution?

Abandon Iraq and A'stan.

17 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:45:39am

We're being told healthcare is a moral obligation- where's the moral obligation to see the effort in Afghanistan through to completion? Where is the morality in abandoning these people?

18 MikeAlv77  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:45:55am

And this is surprising in what way. Most of the democrats that I know don't believe in fighting for anything. One in particular even feels WW II was a waste. I asked her how she would have taken care of the holocaust... no answer and changes the subject. Reality will not intrude on her feelings...

19 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:46:12am
The poll was conducted by telephone Aug. 13-17 among a random national sample of 1,001 adults including users of both conventional and cellular phones.

How do they get random cell phone numbers? Random dialing?

When it comes to the baseline question, 42 percent of Americans say the United States is winning in Afghanistan; about as many, 36 percent, say it is losing.

If 36 percent is "about as many" as 42%, then 47% is practically identical to 51%:

Among all adults, 51 percent now say the war is not worth fighting, up six percentage points since last month and 10 since March. Less than half, 47 percent, say the war is worth its costs.

Right?

20 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:47:10am

I have serious misgivings about this war, and BO does little to make me feel better about it...there should be a massive buildup...500k troops from 20 countries, not just killing Talis but beating back poverty, finding water, building schools and planting crops...the people need the will to resist and we can help them find it...the Taliban will never go away otherwise

21 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:47:13am

Kids entering college this year were 10 years old when 9/11 happened.

For people in their late teens and early 20's 9/11 seems like a lifetime ago.

For me it's still feels like a fresh memory.

22 pat  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:47:14am

I think it is clear that in Afghanistan we are dealing with a level of primitivism, misogyny, religious fanaticism, tribalsim and ignorance that is impervious to reason.

23 MikeAlv77  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:47:18am

re: #18 MikeAlv77

And this is surprising in what way. Most of the democrats that I know don't believe in fighting for anything. One in particular even feels WW II was a waste. I asked her how she would have taken care of the holocaust... no answer and changes the subject. Reality will not intrude on her feelings...

And I don't want to paint the brush that all Democrats are this way. Just all the ones I know..

24 Kragar  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:47:24am

re: #17 Sharmuta

We're being told healthcare is a moral obligation- where's the moral obligation to see the effort in Afghanistan through to completion? Where is the morality in abandoning these people?

Obama wouldn't know a moral obligation if it came up and kicked him in the nuts.

25 midwestgak  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:47:45am
26 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:48:18am

re: #17 Sharmuta

We're being told healthcare is a moral obligation- where's the moral obligation to see the effort in Afghanistan through to completion? Where is the morality in abandoning these people?

Moral obligations only apply when it comes to expanding the government. We have no right or obligation to interfere in other governments becoming repressive totalitarian states.

/I think I'm going to puke

27 pat  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:48:25am

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Obama wouldn't know a moral obligation if it came up and kicked him in the nuts.

Or at least a moral obligation in the normal sense of the word.

28 MikeAlv77  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:48:31am

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #17 Sharmuta


Obama wouldn't know a moral obligation if it came up and kicked him in the nuts.


Considering Michelle has his balls in a jar by the bed, he might not know if anyone did it...

29 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:48:34am

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well I think we have a moral obligation to these people.

30 theuglydougling  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:48:52am

Wait - I thought we were all supposed to reflexively hate defending our country and fighting for freedom around the world now that a democrat is in power. Aren't we supposed to be as politically shallow and knee-jerk as the liberals?

//

31 JohnnyReb  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:48:58am

re: #25 midwestgak

Some are rooting against Karzai being reelected

What happens if he loses?

We go back to square one.

32 Eowyn2  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:49:09am

re: #19 wrenchwench

Right?

360, 420.. whatever it takes

33 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:49:25am

re: #29 Sharmuta

Well I think we have a moral obligation to these people.

You, me, and most lizards probably do. But if lizards ran the country, things would be a whole lot different.

34 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:49:48am

re: #18 MikeAlv77

And this is surprising in what way. Most of the democrats that I know don't believe in fighting for anything. One in particular even feels WW II was a waste. I asked her how she would have taken care of the holocaust... no answer and changes the subject. Reality will not intrude on her feelings...

Maybe she's like Gandhi, who thought that the Jews should just die, to live up to his (Gandhi's) pacifistic ideals.

35 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:49:59am

26 Afghans were killed in election day violence. Afghans are dying to vote - a right that most Americans take for granted.

Who gave them that opportunity, and who continues to give those Afghans a chance to make their country a better place? Who wants to turn their back on this advancement? Who wants to let Afghanistan slip back into the grip of a bunch of misogynists who would rather torch schools full of girls than see them get educated or throw acid on women rather than see them in anything but a burkha.

These are the same thugs who had no problem eradicating thousands of years of history through high explosive - blowing up the priceless Bamiyan Buddhas.

36 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:50:03am

elections have consequences...the chickens are coming home to roost...

37 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:50:17am
38 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:06am

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

I would welcome seeing colorful dewlaps on the evening news.

Mandatory breaks from work for basking on hot rocks.


...That sounds mighty good right about now.

39 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:07am

re: #33 thedopefishlives

You, me, and most lizards probably do. But if lizards ran the country, things would be a whole lot different.

Part of the reason the Taliban came to power is because no one gave a rat's ass about the Afghans. If we abandon them now- they will never trust America or the West again. And who could blame them?

40 Lee Coller  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:12am

I'd like to see the exact working used in this poll (it doesn't seem to be in the article or linked to from the article). I have a hard time believing that is really true. I may just be in denial.

41 Kragar  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:16am

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

re: #33 thedopefishlives


I would welcome seeing colorful dewlaps on the evening news.

Thats not a dewlap. Now put your pants back on.

42 Mad Mullah  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:26am

I read about this a few days ago.

Democrats and liberals are all of a sudden no longer concerned about any war or about Islamic terrorists that are still plotting to kill us, now that Bush is gone. They probably think that Americans wearing Brooks Brother's suits are a bigger threat than Al-Qaeda.

43 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:29am

re: #25 midwestgak

Some are rooting against Karzai being reelected

What happens if he loses?

There's what, 36 people running against him? Chaos. He may not be the ideal president, but he's a lot better than many of the alternatives.

44 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:37am

Abandon Afghanistan, and we'll have deja vu all over again. It'll make the consequences of walking away from Vietnam look minor. The Taliban and their AQ allies must be defeated.

45 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:42am

re: #22 pat

I think it is clear that in Afghanistan we are dealing with a level of primitivism, misogyny, religious fanaticism, tribalsim and ignorance that is impervious to reason.

And that's just in the Obama administration. Imagine what is happening over there?

46 Flyovercountry  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:51:44am

I am saddened by the lack of resolve of my fellow Americans. I am also saddened by the collective lack of an adult memory of my fellow Americans.

47 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:52:49am

re: #39 Sharmuta

Part of the reason the Taliban came to power is because no one gave a rat's ass about the Afghans. If we abandon them now- they will never trust America or the West again. And who could blame them?

And with the Pakistanis having a Taliban incursion of their own, our abandonment of Afghanistan would basically be handing them back their country - "Here, we're done, just walk back across the border and retake everything we fought so hard to push you out of, we're done with it." Talk about kicking a people while they're down.

48 pat  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:52:54am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

LOL

49 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:52:58am

Does it seem strange that none of the progressive Lizards have weigh in on this topic?

Not!

50 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:53:04am

re: #46 Flyovercountry

I am saddened by the lack of resolve of my fellow Americans. I am also saddened by the collective lack of an adult memory of my fellow Americans.

There's still a gaping hole in lower Manhattan to remind us.

51 horse  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:53:07am

President Obama:

"I want the American people to understand that we have a clear and focused goal: to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaida in Pakistan and Afghanistan and to prevent their return to either country in the future. That's the goal that must be achieved. That is a cause that could not be more just. And to the terrorists who oppose us, my message is the same: We will defeat you."

I hope he doesn't forget his own words, he said them just a few months ago as a part of his new strategy on Afghanistan and Pakistan. It's going to be a tough fight in that region for some time. This is a time of tough decisions. Unfortunately, just leaving at this time would probably cost us more in the long run. Pakistan is the lynchpin to stability, and it is in chaos.

52 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:53:14am

Oh, by the way, there was a question yesterday regarding what time the bombs in Bagdad happened and if the time difference led the NYTIMES to put a photo having to do with the dangers of swimming at night on their front page.

Today's front page photo was of 2 trees in Central Park that fell during this weeks thunderstorm.

53 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:53:31am

re: #44 Honorary Yooper

Abandon Afghanistan, and we'll have deja vu all over again. It'll make the consequences of walking away from Vietnam look minor. The Taliban and their AQ allies must be defeated.

Worse- they'll never trust the West again.

It's so amazing- folks sit and say "why don't we do something to help these people in [insert country]?" Then when we do- they want to cut and run when it gets difficult. Hypocritical, imo.

54 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:53:32am

re: #44 Honorary Yooper

Abandon Afghanistan, and we'll have deja vu all over again. It'll make the consequences of walking away from Vietnam look minor. The Taliban and their AQ allies must be defeated.

agreed...get ready for a long slog...as usual the West is gonna put it all on us again...it's shameful and the American people probably will cave too...it's a mess the way things stand

55 MikeAlv77  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:54:22am

re: #53 Sharmuta

re: #44 Honorary Yooper


Worse- they'll never trust the West again.

It's so amazing- folks sit and say "why don't we do something to help these people in [insert country]?" Then when we do- they want to cut and run when it gets difficult. Hypocritical, imo.

That because people have a "sit-com" mentality to fixing things. Real world takes time and sacrifice. They want the answer all wrapped up in time for the commercial break.

56 theuglydougling  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:54:23am

re: #39 Sharmuta

Part of the reason the Taliban came to power is because no one gave a rat's ass about the Afghans. If we abandon them now- they will never trust America or the West again. And who could blame them?

According to the libs, our being there to help creates more terrorism.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

57 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:54:24am

OT--

Along the lines of "What if Bush had said it..."

We are partners with God...

58 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:54:28am

re: #47 thedopefishlives

And with the Pakistanis having a Taliban incursion of their own, our abandonment of Afghanistan would basically be handing them back their country - "Here, we're done, just walk back across the border and retake everything we fought so hard to push you out of, we're done with it." Talk about kicking a people while they're down.

Exactly. All the soldiers we've lost in Afghanistan will have died in vain.

59 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:54:28am

re: #36 charpete67

elections have consequences...the chickens are coming home to roost...

Bugging out prematurely has consequences, too...the last time we did that in Iraq, we got mass slaughter, a suborned UN and constant financial bleeding from patrolling no-fly zones, and the last time we did it in Afghanistan, we got 9-11.

60 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:54:54am

re: #51 horse

President Obama:

I hope he doesn't forget his own words, he said them just a few months ago as a part of his new strategy on Afghanistan and Pakistan. It's going to be a tough fight in that region for some time. This is a time of tough decisions. Unfortunately, just leaving at this time would probably cost us more in the long run. Pakistan is the lynchpin to stability, and it is in chaos.

0bamacare is his moral crusade right now.

61 calvin coolidge  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:54:56am

We're in Afghanistan? I knew we were when Bush was President but I haven't heard anything about it from the media since Obama took office. Naturally, I forgot all about it.

/typical voter

62 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:55:06am

re: #53 Sharmuta

Worse- they'll never trust the West again.

It's so amazing- folks sit and say "why don't we do something to help these people in [insert country]?" Then when we do- they want to cut and run when it gets difficult. Hypocritical, imo.

It would help if we don't elect a socialist president.

63 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:55:13am

re: #39 Sharmuta

re: #33 thedopefishlives


Part of the reason the Taliban came to power is because no one gave a rat's ass about the Afghans. If we abandon them now- they will never trust America or the West again. And who could blame them?

Sharm, that trust disappeared long ago.

One of the reasons Osama was prepared to hit the US is because of how fast we abandon allies when public opinion takes a hit.

Most recently, Iran. And we didn't even take a hit.

64 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:55:42am

re: #22 pat

I think it is clear that in Afghanistan we are dealing with a level of primitivism, misogyny, religious fanaticism, tribalsim and ignorance that is impervious to reason.

Which is why I am skeptical that we can ever "win" in Afghanistan. IMHO, the best we can hope for is to keep the Taliban off balance for a very long time. And as for building up the troop levels to 500k, that's not possible given the supply bottlenecks we have to deal with to get materials into the country. Airlift can't do it. I think we've about maxed out the number of troops we can sustain.

65 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:56:02am

re: #58 Sharmuta

Exactly. All the soldiers we've lost in Afghanistan will have died in vain.

when I even consider that I sit and rage...unacceptable

66 Gearhead  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:56:05am

re: #53 Sharmuta

Worse- they'll never trust the West again.

It's so amazing- folks sit and say "why don't we do something to help these people in [insert country]?" Then when we do- they want to cut and run when it gets difficult. Hypocritical, imo.

Hold on there. 5,000 years of the same thing is not necessarily a pattern...

/

67 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:56:27am

re: #57 calcajun

OT--

Along the lines of "What if Bush had said it..."

We are partners with God...

Could you imagine the backlash if Bush had called on religious leaders to campaign and support his positions from the pulpit?!?

68 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:56:39am
69 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:56:49am

re: #53 Sharmuta

Worse- they'll never trust the West again.

It's so amazing- folks sit and say "why don't we do something to help these people in [insert country]?" Then when we do- they want to cut and run when it gets difficult. Hypocritical, imo.

Exactly. The anti-war folks think we're hated now, let them see what happens when we're known for starting something and pulling out before we finish it. We'll never be trusted by the thrid world or by our allies. The only ones who will trust us will be our enemies. They'll trust us to stop before we finish and defeat them.

70 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:56:59am

afghanistan was always the "good war" for Obama. and I support fighting the taliban, et al over there. but if the POTUS really considers this the "good war," he needs to act like a "badass" in the way he fights it. And that means to win it "by any means necessary." if we fight with 1.5 hands tied behind the military's back, Obama's good war will go bad in a hurry.

71 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:57:29am
72 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:57:44am

re: #67 Ben Hur

Could you imagine the backlash if Bush had called on religious leaders to campaign and support his positions from the pulpit?!?

It's a trap. He just wants them all to lose their tax exempt status.

//...hmmm... (probably just gave him an idea to bolster tax revenue...sorry folks...)

73 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:58:04am

re: #66 Gearhead

Hold on there. 5,000 years of the same thing is not necessarily a pattern...

/

Well- I try to be pragmatic. I'd love to set the whole world free so everyone could live in general peace and prosperity, but it's not reality. Thing is- we are in Afghanistan, and we can help these people. I don't know why anyone would want our help in the future if we show we'll abandon a job we've started.

74 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:58:18am

re: #52 Ben Hur

Anything about the elections? One of our lefty rags, the Globe and Mail, had a big picture of Karazi and questions about what next front page above the fold.

75 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:58:31am

At least we know G-d is on the Death Panel.

76 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:58:45am

I will ask because I don't know:
Does Obama call families of fallen soldiers?

77 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:58:58am

re: #72 Oh no...Sand People!

It's a trap. He just wants them all to lose their tax exempt status.

//...hmmm... (probably just gave him an idea to bolster tax revenue...sorry folks...)

Reverend Ackbar.

78 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:59:04am

re: #75 Ben Hur

At least we know G-d is on the Death Panel.

Mini-God.

79 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:59:27am

re: #74 BlueCanuck

re: #52 Ben Hur

Anything about the elections? One of our lefty rags, the Globe and Mail, had a big picture of Karazi and questions about what next front page above the fold.


Somehow, Karzai is still a Bush puppet...

80 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:59:29am

re: #70 _RememberTonyC

afghanistan was always the "good war" for Obama. and I support fighting the taliban, et al over there. but if the POTUS really considers this the "good war," he needs to act like a "badass" in the way he fights it. And that means to win it "by any means necessary." if we fight with 1.5 hands tied behind the military's back, Obama's good war will go bad in a hurry.

it already is going bad...I read a blur the other day about a US unit...100 straight days of firefights...chew on that

81 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:59:35am

re: #73 Sharmuta

Well- I try to be pragmatic. I'd love to set the whole world free so everyone could live in general peace and prosperity, but it's not reality. Thing is- we are in Afghanistan, and we can help these people. I don't know why anyone would want our help in the future if we show we'll abandon a job we've started.

The repercussions of what we do in Afghanistan will be at least as important as what we do in Iraq. Failing to finish out either fight will backlash on us, and badly. Doing things the right way will send shockwaves across the entire region.

82 Eowyn2  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:59:43am

re: #40 Lee Coller

I'd like to see the exact working used in this poll (it doesn't seem to be in the article or linked to from the article). I have a hard time believing that is really true. I may just be in denial.

You want the questions?
Are you implying that the answers could be manipulated?
never.

83 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:59:56am

There was a comment on the overnight thread (I think) about the opportunity for the Republicans to attract some Libertarians. From what I've seen, Libertarians oppose the war in Afghanistan, as well as any other war not on US territory. So I don't want to attract Libertarians.

84 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 10:59:58am

re: #38 thedopefishlives

Mandatory breaks from work for basking on hot rocks.

...That sounds mighty good right about now.

I spent too long basking on hot rocks. Now I'm shedding my skin.

85 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:00:29am

re: #74 BlueCanuck

re: #52 Ben Hur

Anything about the elections? One of our lefty rags, the Globe and Mail, had a big picture of Karazi and questions about what next front page above the fold.

Nope.

Trees.

86 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:00:34am
Republicans (70 percent say it is worth fighting) and conservatives (58 percent) remain the war’s strongest backers, and the issue provides a rare point of GOP support for Obama’s policies. A narrow majority of conservatives approve of the president’s handling of the war (52 percent), as do more than four in 10 Republicans (43 percent).

My guess is these numbers would be stronger were it not for the ron paul isolationists.

87 Mad Mullah  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:00:46am

re: #75 Ben Hur

At least we know G-d is on the Death Panel.

And so is Obama, he is gods partner.

"We are God's partners in matters of life and death," Obama said.

That's when he was speaking to a bunch of rabbis.

88 DaddyG  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:00:52am

re: #73 Sharmuta

I don't know why anyone would want our help in the future if we show we'll abandon a job we've started.

Like the Kurds who were just waiting for us in Iraq to rise up in rebellion against Sadam after we left them alone to eat chemical weapons for a decade. Oh...

89 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:01:07am

re: #68 buzzsawmonkey

Overseas policy? Under the rug!
Endorse Obamacare, get cheap drugs!

Viagra or Opium ?

I'm up with one of 'em, down with the other.

90 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:01:10am

re: #71 buzzsawmonkey

I'm afraid the mission that they are on has nothing to do with a tax lien on an orphanage. It's a bit more insidious.

91 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:01:14am

re: #80 albusteve

re: #70 _RememberTonyC


it already is going bad...I read a blur the other day about a US unit...100 straight days of firefights...chew on that

right ... and it will get worse because the taliban think we'll fight them with kid gloves because of our new CiC.

92 midwestgak  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:01:31am

re: #51 horse

President Obama:

I hope he doesn't forget his own words, he said them just a few months ago as a part of his new strategy on Afghanistan and Pakistan. It's going to be a tough fight in that region for some time. This is a time of tough decisions. Unfortunately, just leaving at this time would probably cost us more in the long run. Pakistan is the lynchpin to stability, and it is in chaos.

Here are more words from Obama:

On Monday at the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention, President Obama said of Afghanistan, “This is not only a war worth fighting. This is fundamental to the defense of our people.” If he believes that, he’ll continue to give his commanders what they need.

We'll see

The Other Surge

93 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:01:43am

re: #86 Sharmuta

GMTS

(Similarly)

94 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:01:43am

re: #88 DaddyG

Like the Kurds who were just waiting for us in Iraq to rise up in rebellion against Sadam after we left them alone to eat chemical weapons for a decade. Oh...

Bailing on folks like this builds resentment against America.

95 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:01:59am

If we wanna really bolster Al Qaeda's recruitment of resentful and revenge-minded Iraqis and Afghans, all we really have to do is to abandon and betray those trusting, democracy-desiring people to totalitarians and theocrats for a second time in two consecutive generations.

96 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:02:18am

re: #3 experiencedtraveller

Win the war.

Define "win".

97 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:02:27am
98 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:02:42am

Karzai is in an incredibly difficult position, considering what a backward country he rules. Changing the culture so that women aren't considered chattel will take a long time.

99 Rancher  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:02:57am

Having rooted for defeat in Iraq Democrats had to come out in favor of our efforts in Afghanistan so as to have some national security gravitas. It is an uncomfortable fit, especially since the surge will result in increased casualties. Should Osama be captured or killed you will see Democrat support drop through the floor. As to how then war is being fought, why are we surging in Helmand? Because the Brits asked us to? We should be concentrating on Kandahar, doing what is vital in any COIN war, protecting the people.

100 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:03:41am

re: #35 lawhawk


Irrelavent.

A Palestinian had to wait 30 minutes at a check point today.

THAT'S sacrifice! THAT'S suffering! THAT is a war crime!

BBL

101 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:03:54am

re: #91 _RememberTonyC

right ... and it will get worse because the taliban think we'll fight them with kid gloves because of our new CiC.

and the Taliban have the two most potent weapons in the field on their side...time, and the Will of Allah

102 Gearhead  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:04:09am

re: #73 Sharmuta

Well- I try to be pragmatic. I'd love to set the whole world free so everyone could live in general peace and prosperity, but it's not reality. Thing is- we are in Afghanistan, and we can help these people. I don't know why anyone would want our help in the future if we show we'll abandon a job we've started.

I was being a tad sarcastic. I'm with you. AND, quitting emboldens our enemies, as in the cases of Lebanon, Somalia, Iraq (after the first Gulf War), etc.

103 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:04:16am

re: #87 Mad Mullah

re: #75 Ben Hur


And so is Obama, he is gods partner.

"We are God's partners in matters of life and death," Obama said.

That's when he was speaking to a bunch of rabbis.


Rabbits?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

SOrry. That how I read it at first.

BBL!

104 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:04:31am

re: #101 albusteve

and the Taliban have the two most potent weapons in the field on their side...time, and the Will of Allah

We have Predator drones. I'd put that up against the will of allah any day.

105 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:04:38am

re: #87 Mad Mullah

And so is Obama, he is gods partner.

"We are God's partners in matters of life and death," Obama said.

That's when he was speaking to a bunch of rabbis.

I can only imagine the chorus of "Oy!" that went up when they heard that. He's meshugganah (sp?).

106 Flyovercountry  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:04:45am

re: #50 Ward Cleaver

re: #46 Flyovercountry


There's still a gaping hole in lower Manhattan to remind us.

I agree that it should remind us. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be enough. It is there due to our failure to take the threat seriously in the first place. So here we are again. I hope our President won't pay any attention to this poll, but I also am not a believer in his desire to preserve American National Security. His rhetoric and his actions have not been in alignment ever during his tenure on the national political scene.

107 LGoPs  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:04:53am

The left is an unfaithful ally in America's wars. They give strength and hope to our enemies.

108 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:04:55am

re: #98 Ward Cleaver

Karzai is in an incredibly difficult position, considering what a backward country he rules. Changing the culture so that women aren't considered chattel will take a long time.

And yet he's already made some headway on this as girls are going back to school and women are allowed to work again.

109 DaddyG  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:04:59am

re: #103 Ben Hur

re: #87 Mad Mullah


re: #75 Ben Hur


And so is Obama, he is gods partner.

"We are God's partners in matters of life and death," Obama said.

That's when he was speaking to a bunch of rabbis.


Rabbits?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

SOrry. That how I read it at first.

BBL!

Appeasing Rabbits was Carters gig.

110 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:05:05am

re: #67 Ben Hur

Could you imagine the backlash if Bush had called on religious leaders to campaign and support his positions from the pulpit?!?

Or if he used the phrase:

"I know there's been a lot of misinformation" about health care reform, Mr. Obama said. "There are some folks that are, frankly, bearing false witness."

bearing false witness?...who uses that terminology...now he's pandering to priests?

111 Kragar  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:05:12am

re: #96 Kenneth

re: #3 experiencedtraveller


Define "win".

No bombings
No bandits hiding in the hills to raid towns who they disagree with.
Boys and girls able to go to schools without getting killed.
Farmers being able to grow real crops without being worried their familes would get killed if they stop growing opium.

Just for starters at least

112 Rancher  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:05:18am

re: #98 Ward Cleaver

Karzai is in an incredibly difficult position, considering what a backward country he rules. Changing the culture so that women aren't considered chattel will take a long time.

Running a government free of corruption is another cultural hurdle that will take decades to achieve, if they ever do.

113 midwestgak  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:05:28am

re: #57 calcajun

OT--

Along the lines of "What if Bush had said it..."

We are partners with God...

Impeach him!

114 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:05:55am

re: #103 Ben Hur

Rabbits?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

SOrry. That how I read it at first.

BBL!

He's not doing a George III turn here-- and we should hope not. Imagine the zingers that would fly from the mouth of "President" Biden?

115 Rancher  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:05:56am

re: #102 Gearhead

re: #73 Sharmuta


I was being a tad sarcastic. I'm with you. AND, quitting emboldens our enemies, as in the cases of Lebanon, Somalia, Iraq (after the first Gulf War), etc.

Vietnam.

116 Gearhead  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:05:59am

re: #112 Rancher

Running a government free of corruption is another cultural hurdle that will take decades to achieve, if they ever do.

What does Chicago have to do with this?

117 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:06:25am

re: #101 albusteve

re: #91 _RememberTonyC


and the Taliban have the two most potent weapons in the field on their side...time, and the Will of Allah


I know Obama's minions are big fans of the old USSR. But the USSR was on afghanistan's border and couldn't subdue it. Are we going to learn from that and try something better?

118 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:06:30am

That gaping hole in Lower Manhattan isn't nearly as gaping, but it is all too painfully slow in being rebuilt.

119 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:06:40am

re: #108 Sharmuta

And yet he's already made some headway on this as girls are going back to school and women are allowed to work again.

Yes, he's made some progress, but there's still quite a climb ahead.

120 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:06:53am
121 LGoPs  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:06:56am

re: #73 Sharmuta

re: #66 Gearhead


Well- I try to be pragmatic. I'd love to set the whole world free so everyone could live in general peace and prosperity, but it's not reality. Thing is- we are in Afghanistan, and we can help these people. I don't know why anyone would want our help in the future if we show we'll abandon a job we've started.

Tell that to the left.

122 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:07:01am

re: #112 Rancher

We're still having that problem in the US - all too frequently at that.

123 Kragar  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:07:01am

re: #116 Gearhead

re: #112 Rancher


What does Chicago have to do with this?

HEY-OH!

124 Eowyn2  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:07:09am

re: #47 thedopefishlives

re: #39 Sharmuta


And with the Pakistanis having a Taliban incursion of their own, our abandonment of Afghanistan would basically be handing them back their country - "Here, we're done, just walk back across the border and retake everything we fought so hard to push you out of, we're done with it." Talk about kicking a people while they're down.


Except they won't walk back across the border, they will attempt (and possibly succeed) in bringing about a coup in Pakistan.

125 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:07:28am

re: #102 Gearhead

I was being a tad sarcastic. I'm with you. AND, quitting emboldens our enemies, as in the cases of Lebanon, Somalia, Iraq (after the first Gulf War), etc.

Okay- I just get a bit emotional about this topic. I can't help it- I see vision of women in sacks being beaten for begging for food and I can't stand the thought of us abandoning them...

126 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:07:39am

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

ohhh...my bad...thanks

127 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:08:22am

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

He's referring to the people who witnessed in favor of his program at the townhall in Bering Falls.

Maybe it was ball bearings? Hell, son. It's all ball bearings these days!

128 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:08:32am

re: #119 Ward Cleaver

Yes, he's made some progress, but there's still quite a climb ahead.

Agreed! I hope we're there to help, too.

129 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:08:50am

re: #127 calcajun

Maybe it was ball bearings? Hell, son. It's all ball bearings these days!

up ding for Fletch...

130 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:08:55am

re: #114 calcajun

re: #103 Ben Hur


He's not doing a George III turn here-- and we should hope not. Imagine the zingers that would fly from the mouth of "President" Biden?

He's already out there doing torture "jokes" (BDS torture jokes).

He's a real jewel, that one.

131 Gearhead  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:08:57am

re: #125 Sharmuta

Okay- I just get a bit emotional about this topic. I can't help it- I see vision of women in sacks being beaten for begging for food and I can't stand the thought of us abandoning them...

No problem. It warrants the emotion.

132 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:09:00am
133 LGoPs  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:09:00am

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

re: #110 charpete67


He's referring to the people who witnessed in favor of his program at the townhall in Bering Falls.

Like the ones that falsely claimed to be doctors?
/ this fellow Obama has no self awareness or shame

134 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:09:36am

re: #129 charpete67

What kind of name is "Poon"?

Cherokee Indian.

135 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:09:48am

re: #133 LGoPs

Like the ones that falsely claimed to be doctors?
/ this fellow Obama has no self awareness or shame

...it's all a question of perspective.../

136 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:09:49am

re: #125 Sharmuta

Okay- I just get a bit emotional about this topic. I can't help it- I see vision of women in sacks being beaten for begging for food and I can't stand the thought of us abandoning them...

Well, you will probably have to wait until 2012. I'm with you on this, but there is nothing that this administration has done or said, during the campaign and since the election, that would embolden anyone to believe that the president will be able to handle this situation properly.

It's sad, but it's the facts, and it doesn't look good.

137 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:10:08am

We have been here, and behaved fecklessly, ignobly and dishonorably, before:

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

Here is the letter that the soon-to-be-shot-in-the-stomach former prime minister of Cambodia sent to Henry Kissinger:

Dear Excellency and Friend:

I thank you very sincerely for your letter and for your offer to transport me towards freedom. I cannot, alas, leave in such a cowardly fashion. As for you, and in particular for your great country, I never believed for a moment that you would have this sentiment of abandoning a people which has chosen liberty. You have refused us your protection, and we can do nothing about it.

You leave, and my wish is that you and your country will find happiness under this sky. But, mark it well, that if I shall die here on the spot and in my country that I love, it is no matter, because we are all born and must die. I have only committed this mistake of believing in you [the Americans].

Please accept, Excellency and dear friend, my faithful and friendly sentiments.

138 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:10:08am

re: #109 DaddyG

Appeasing Rabbits was Carters gig.

Reading The Reagan Diaries, I get to see how Carter screwed things up, and how Reagan had to work to repair the damage. Last night I was reading how the Justice Dept. had come crying to Reagan for money, since Carter had cut their budget by 40% in real dollars over four years. Also, Reagan handed out bravery medals to soldiers which had been awarded during Carter's term, yet Carter hadn't presented them.

139 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:10:27am

re: #125 Sharmuta

Okay- I just get a bit emotional about this topic. I can't help it- I see vision of women in sacks being beaten for begging for food and I can't stand the thought of us abandoning them...

it may happen and in fact I think it will...it's too big, too long and too expensive

140 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:10:28am

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

Well, you will probably have to wait until 2012. I'm with you on this, but there is nothing that this administration has done or said, during the campaign and since the election, that would embolden anyone to believe that the president will be able to handle this situation properly.

It's sad, but it's the facts, and it doesn't look good.

He's sent more troops for the Afghan surge, Walter.

141 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:10:29am

re: #134 calcajun

What kind of name is "Poon"?

Cherokee Indian.

could I have your towel?...my car just hit a water buffalo...

142 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:10:42am

Comfortable, self-satisfied people easily forget.

143 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:11:13am

re: #117 _RememberTonyC

re: #101 albusteve


re: #91 _RememberTonyC


and the Taliban have the two most potent weapons in the field on their side...time, and the Will of Allah


I know Obama's minions are big fans of the old USSR. But the USSR was on afghanistan's border and couldn't subdue it. Are we going to learn from that and try something better?

Well, I don't think we've dropped any mines disguised as children's toys ...

144 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:11:41am

re: #87 Mad Mullah

And so is Obama, he is gods partner.

"We are God's partners in matters of life and death," Obama said.

That's when he was speaking to a bunch of rabbis.

Problem is, Obama thinks he has the majority interest in the partnership.

145 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:11:41am

OT - that's interesting, CNN cuts away from the daily White House press meeting as soon as Gibbs starts talking about health care.

146 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:11:51am

Some perspective, just posted in the spinoffs by Medaura:

Yes, the number of U.S. troops has already more than doubled over the past year—from 33,000 to 68,000. And, yes, there are 33,000 other troops in Afghanistan from our NATO partners. But Afghanistan is a big country—bigger than Iraq in both area and population—and yet the size of its security forces is less than a third of that in Iraq. Iraq has more than 600,000 security personnel; Afghanistan, fewer than 170,000; and based on current projections, it will take years to substantially increase that number.
147 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:12:03am

re: #111 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK. I only ask because our political leaders have never offered a definition for "victory" in Afghanistan. If winning means converting Afghanistan into some kind of Asian Switzerland, then we had better get used to a century long struggle.

If we set some more modest goals, like basic security, the destruction of Al Qaeda, and knocking the Taliban down enough to convince them to accept a pluralist central gov't, then we could be out of there in another 10 years. Maybe.

Just don't expect a functioning democracy, freedom for women, or an end to tribalism. It ain't going to happen.

148 LGoPs  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:12:25am

re: #67 Ben Hur

re: #57 calcajun


OT--

Along the lines of "What if Bush had said it..."

We are partners with God...


Could you imagine the backlash if Bush had called on religious leaders to campaign and support his positions from the pulpit?!?

the double standard is mind boggling and is a primary cause of why we are where we are.

149 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:12:27am

re: #140 Sharmuta

He's sent more troops for the Afghan surge, Walter.

Are you comfortable that Obama will handle the Afghan war well?

150 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:12:37am

re: #145 Walter L. Newton

OT - that's interesting, CNN cuts away from the daily White House press meeting as soon as Gibbs starts talking about health care.

Move along, Citizens. Nothin' to see here. Move along.

151 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:13:06am

re: #137 Salamantis

I've never seen that before...gut wrenching to read...

152 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:13:15am

re: #141 charpete67

could I have your towel?...my car just hit a water buffalo...

"Don't wear so much eye makeup, it makes you look cheap."

(fletch to randall "tex" cobb)

153 jaunte  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:13:47am

Given the poll results, this photo probably needs more circulation.
Why some fights are worth the trouble.
Image: RAWA.jpg

154 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:14:09am

re: #141 charpete67

could I have your towel?...my car just hit a water buffalo...

Moon River! Ah, got the whole fist in there, Doc.

155 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:14:20am
Yes, the number of U.S. troops has already more than doubled over the past year—from 33,000 to 68,000. And, yes, there are 33,000 other troops in Afghanistan from our NATO partners.

Obama continuing Bush's UNILATERALISM!!!

156 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #153 jaunte

Given the poll results, this photo probably needs more circulation.
Why some fights are worth the trouble.
[Link: 4.bp.blogspot.com...]

404. Better link?

157 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:14:46am

re: #149 Walter L. Newton

Are you comfortable that Obama will handle the Afghan war well?

It's Afghanistan- I assume no president will do as well as we'd like. It's up to the Afghans to stand up for their country in the end.

158 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:15:05am

The Pakistani ISI and Taliban are intermingled with each other heavily IIRC, and defeating the Taliban is not going to be easy without some across the border housecleaning.

159 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:15:50am

re: #154 calcajun

Moon River! Ah, got the whole fist in there, Doc.

I'm sure it's not for a lack of looking...

160 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:16:11am

re: #157 Sharmuta

It's Afghanistan- I assume no president will do as well as we'd like. It's up to the Afghans to stand up for their country in the end.

Good answer.

161 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:16:11am

re: #149 Walter L. Newton

Are you comfortable that Obama will handle the Afghan war well?

No one else has ever done well there since Alexander. Why should he start now?

162 DaddyG  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:16:28am

re: #110 charpete67

re: #67 Ben Hur


Or if he used the phrase:

"I know there's been a lot of misinformation" about health care reform, Mr. Obama said. "There are some folks that are, frankly, bearing false witness."

bearing false witness?...who uses that terminology...now he's pandering to priests?

This is a mistake. The Dems are using stock phrases and imagery to try to appeal to people who have a very different set of fundamental principles about the role of Government. Adopting pseudo religious langugage is not going to suddenly convert religious conservatives and moderates to the cause. If anything this will come accross like a middle aged man trying to talk "hip" to his kids.

163 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:16:48am

re: #158 SasquatchOnSteroids

The Pakistani ISI and Taliban are intermingled with each other heavily IIRC, and defeating the Taliban is not going to be easy without some across the border housecleaning.

no shit...the problem is huge...far more problematic than Iraq ever was, and with a nuclear issue as well

164 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:16:50am

re: #160 Walter L. Newton

Good answer.

Yeah- I do that sometimes. ;)

165 jaunte  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:16:56am

re: #156 Ward Cleaver

Sorry; it was the image of the shooting in the soccer stadium from RAWA.
Story here:
[Link: archive.salon.com...]

166 midwestgak  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:17:20am

Open registration ===>

167 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:17:30am

We earlier took out Baitullah Mehsud, the head of the Paki Taliban, and more recently, his right-hand man and his spokesperson / Al Qaeda liason have been captured.

These jihadi dominoes cannot fall fast enough for me.

168 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:17:39am

re: #157 Sharmuta

It's Afghanistan- I assume no president will do as well as we'd like. It's up to the Afghans to stand up for their country in the end.

the Taliban are the Afghans

169 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:17:54am

re: #146 wrenchwench

And the Europeans can't increase their numbers because of limitations on their own military spending - and lack of necessary equipment (like helicopters, medical equipment, and the like), necessitating reliance on the US or Russia for logistics.

170 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:18:01am

re: #162 DaddyG

re: #110 charpete67


re: #67 Ben Hur


Or if he used the phrase:

"I know there's been a lot of misinformation" about health care reform, Mr. Obama said. "There are some folks that are, frankly, bearing false witness."

bearing false witness?...who uses that terminology...now he's pandering to priests?


This is a mistake. The Dems are using stock phrases and imagery to try to appeal to people who have a very different set of fundamental principles about the role of Government. Adopting pseudo religious langugage is not going to suddenly convert religious conservatives and moderates to the cause. If anything this will come accross like a middle aged man trying to talk "hip" to his kids.

But you religious conservatives are so stooopid ... surely you will fall for it.

/

171 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:18:09am

re: #162 DaddyG

This is a mistake. The Dems are using stock phrases and imagery to try to appeal to people who have a very different set of fundamental principles about the role of Government. Adopting pseudo religious langugage is not going to suddenly convert religious conservatives and moderates to the cause. If anything this will come accross like a middle aged man trying to talk "hip" to his kids.

when I heard it on the radio...it struck me as fake...like he was told to throw it in there to talk their language...it's like when certain politicians quote scripture...

172 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:18:55am

re: #168 albusteve

re: #157 Sharmuta


the Taliban are the Afghans

The tribal territories and identities don't give a fig for "Afghanistan" or "Pakistan".

173 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:18:57am

re: #167 Salamantis

These jihadi dominoes cannot fall fast enough for me.

Problem is someone keeps putting another one up. There no short supply of "future Taliban leaders" over there.

174 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:20:17am

re: #170 OldLineTexan

But you religious conservatives are so stooopid ... surely you will fall for it./

When he raises someone from the dead and rolls out plans for a new Temple, then I'll be worried. Until then, he's a hack politician.

175 Rancher  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:20:24am

re: #168 albusteve

the Taliban are the Afghans


Depends on your definition. They were originally Pakistani.

176 AuntAcid  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:20:24am

Anti-war leftnuts go AWOL for Obama's war.
I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

177 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:20:33am

re: #172 OldLineTexan

The tribal territories and identities don't give a fig for "Afghanistan" or "Pakistan".

right...and they are in the zone...it's a bad rabbit

178 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:20:34am

re: #173 calcajun

re: #167 Salamantis


Problem is someone keeps putting another one up. There no short supply of "future Taliban leaders" over there.

But when we kill all those with combat leadership experience, their green replacements lead their men into slaughter. That's been happening a lot lately.

179 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:21:22am

It was only a matter of time. As a whole, our society doesn't like conflict and 9/11/2001 seems very far away these days. The country is foolishly going back to sleep while the house is still on fire. Sadly it will really take another 9/11 or perhaps a nuke in Tel Aviv, before we will get serious about the threats to western civilization that are out there. Obama was reflecting popular sentiment when he removed the term "War on Terror" from the WH dialog. People hope that if we ignore it, it will go away.

Extremo-Islamic Terror isn't going away though. And ultimately we'll pay a heavy price for backing away from the conflict. I just hope we really want to survive the conflict when we have no choice but to face it.

180 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:21:58am

re: #146 wrenchwench

Afghanistan is bigger, but the issues are less complex than in Iraq. Iraq had several different insurgencies at once, including foreign fighters. In Afghanistan, there is only one insurgency, the Taliban, and their foreign fighters (aka Al Qaeda).

According to recent UN analysis, the Taliban poses a threat to only 40% of the country, by area, and a significant portion of that territory is uninhabited dessert and mountains. The contested areas are actually a very small proportion of the country.

The biggest challenge for NATO is how to deal with the leadership of Taliban & Al Qaeda, and the training bases, in Pakistan. Lately, Pakistan has been getting serious about fighting them on the ground. The Pakistanis are also providing intel & approval for very effective US drone missions against the terrorists.

181 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:22:05am

re: #175 Rancher

Depends on your definition. They were originally Pakistani.

by that I mean they are the only force inside their borders that make any difference...for all practical purposes they represent Afghanistan as much or more than the Kharzi regime

182 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:22:35am

re: #143 OldLineTexan

re: #117 _RememberTonyC


re: #101 albusteve


re: #91 _RememberTonyC


and the Taliban have the two most potent weapons in the field on their side...time, and the Will of Allah


I know Obama's minions are big fans of the old USSR. But the USSR was on afghanistan's border and couldn't subdue it. Are we going to learn from that and try something better?

Well, I don't think we've dropped any mines disguised as children's toys ...

agreed ...

183 charpete67  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:23:55am

re: #170 OldLineTexan

But you religious conservatives are so stooopid ... surely you will fall for it.

/

all he's got to do is turn some water in to wine and they'll all be on board...//

184 albusteve  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:24:15am

re: #178 Salamantis

But when we kill all those with combat leadership experience, their green replacements lead their men into slaughter. That's been happening a lot lately.

I appreciate your perspective

185 CommonCents  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:24:29am

re: #8 Diamond Bullet

I've always preferred being right to being popular. (Also why I'm no longer a registered (d)Emocrat).

I give you an upding for that, but thankfully I've never been a democrat.

186 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:24:33am

One of the best essays written in the wake of 9/11:
Al Qaeda's Fantasy Ideology

Worth reading again...Or better, read the book

Enemies don't go away because you can no longer be bothered to fight them.

187 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:24:51am

re: #183 charpete67

re: #170 OldLineTexan


all he's got to do is turn some water in to wine and they'll all be on board...//

Actually, it will need to be grape juice.

Don't ask.

188 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:25:03am

re: #165 jaunte

Sorry; it was the image of the shooting in the soccer stadium from RAWA.
Story here:
[Link: archive.salon.com...]

Pulling out of Afghanistan would again consign them to this reality. Only this time it would be worse, because they would go after anyone who worked with, or supported us or Karzai.

189 Rancher  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:26:31am

re: #181 albusteve

re: #175 Rancher


by that I mean they are the only force inside their borders that make any difference...for all practical purposes they represent Afghanistan as much or more than the Kharzi regime


There are also the regional warlords.

190 calcajun  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:26:39am

re: #183 charpete67

all he's got to do is turn some water in to wine and they'll all be on board...//

Right now-- all he has is Kool-aid.

191 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:26:48am

re: #188 Ward Cleaver

re: #165 jaunte


Pulling out of Afghanistan would again consign them to this reality. Only this time it would be worse, because they would go after anyone who worked with, or supported us or Karzai.

Even the Viet Cong were less bloodthirsty; there would be no re-education camps for all those Afghans who supported us - only mass graves.

192 CommonCents  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:27:09am

The real problem with the poll is the title

WaPo Poll: Most Americans Oppose Afghanistan War

A poll to be released tomorrow with the new verbiage...

WaPo Poll: Most Americans Favor Afghanistan Overseas Contingency Operation

//

193 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:27:46am

re: #155 Ben Hur

Obama continuing Bush's UNILATERALISM!!!

Gen. McKiernan was fired for, among other things, being too deferential toward NATO. Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates had concluded NATO could not be relied upon to provide enough resources to win the war. A new strategy was needed.

194 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:28:57am

Too bad no one is reminded about the two towers. Maybe they'd have a different opinion of the war.
Kind of like if Pearl Harbor wasn't mentioned after Dec 8, 1941

195 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:28:59am

re: #175 Rancher

Depends on your definition. They were originally Pakistani.

No, the Taliban are Pashtuns, an ethnic group which lives on both sides of the Af-Pak border.

196 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:29:47am

re: #194 Kosh's Shadow

You don't reminder FDR telling the American people to go shopping?

197 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:30:23am

re: #138 Ward Cleaver

Reading The Reagan Diaries, I get to see how Carter screwed things up, and how Reagan had to work to repair the damage. Last night I was reading how the Justice Dept. had come crying to Reagan for money, since Carter had cut their budget by 40% in real dollars over four years. Also, Reagan handed out bravery medals to soldiers which had been awarded during Carter's term, yet Carter hadn't presented them.

Carter is a sorry excuse for a man. He was the same way when he was governor of Georgia. When he was running for president the national press never looked at his record as governor, just like they never looked closely at Obama's record, or lack thereof. If they had reported on even a few items from Carter's record in Georgia, Gerald Ford would have been re-elected handily.

198 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:33:02am

I think it was Christopher Hitchens who suggested that, rather than burning down the Afghan poppy fields, we make them legal and allow them to sell opium to pharmaceutical companies instead of drug lords, thereby creating a profitable industry for Afghanistan while diminishing the illegal heroin market.

199 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:33:10am

re: #194 Kosh's Shadow

Too bad no one is reminded about the two towers. Maybe they'd have a different opinion of the war.
Kind of like if Pearl Harbor wasn't mentioned after Dec 8, 1941

I wonder what the poll results would be if the question was something like:

"Is it worth fighting the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban, you know, the guys who knocked down the World Trade Center and killed almost 3,000 people?"

200 Rancher  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:34:03am
We've been losing the war in Afghanistan since at least 2006. Losing does not mean lost, but the trends are not looking good. Afghanistan will not be a "civilized" country by 2020. Maybe by 2100 Afghanistan can honestly be called a stable, developing nation. If Afghanistan is to be lifted from the stone ages, progress here will be marked not year by year, but decade by decade.

Michael Yon.

Will we have the will to stick it out? If history is any indication, no.

201 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:34:45am

re: #195 Kenneth

re: #175 Rancher

No, the Taliban are Pashtuns, an ethnic group which lives on both sides of the Af-Pak border.

Jihad is, for many of them, a tribal or clan business. There are entire family lines there that support themselves almost exclusively through jihad. It is as if Rockefellers were funding Hatfields or McCoys.

202 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:35:04am

re: #181 albusteve

by that I mean they are the only force inside their borders that make any difference...for all practical purposes they represent Afghanistan as much or more than the Kharzi regime

Not true at all. The Taliban are drawn only from two of the 5 tribes that make up the Pashtun ethnic group. The other major Afghan ethnic groups are not represented at all among the Taliban. The central government does include Pashtuns, including, by the way, President Karzai. Furthermore, there is a sizable foreign component among the Taliban (Arabs, Chechens and Uzbecs) who are deeply hated by the Afghan people.

203 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:36:24am

I support U.S. troops no matter where they are deployed. That said, I wonder about a major U.S. military commitment to Afghanistan while other areas of more strategic importance, such as Georgia and Ukraine, lie exposed. We threw out the Taliban government with fewer than 200 special ops forces. Do we really expect decisive victory?

Afghanistan is not a modern nation-state. It's more like a geographical conglomeration of disparate, migratory tribal and ethnic groups. Those tribal groups migrate across national boundaries at will, including into Pakistan. Aren't we better off making tribal alliances, arming and equipping our tribal allies as our proxies, keeping the Afghanistan government out of hostile hands, and keeping Afghanistan in play?

By contrast, Pakistan must be a higher priority in the region. Its secret service, ISI, is a large source of our problems in Afghanistan. Someone is supplying the Taliban. We should go after the sources of supply.

204 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:37:48am

re: #158 SasquatchOnSteroids

The Pakistani ISI and Taliban are intermingled with each other heavily IIRC, and defeating the Taliban is not going to be easy without some across the border housecleaning.

We could take off the kid gloves and stop worrying about hearts and minds. If we kicked ass until we were wading knee-deep in blood and gore--You know, actually try to win the war--the Taliban would get as sick of the bloodshed as we already are. And the Pakistanis would probably turn tail and run, because they won't want to be in the way on the Taliban's reckoning day.

I truly abhor violence and war, but those are the only tools that will make peace with an opponent that has no other goal than your destruction.

205 Coracle  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:38:44am

re: #203 quickjustice


Afghanistan is not a modern nation-state. It's more like a geographical conglomeration of disparate, migratory tribal and ethnic groups. Those tribal groups migrate across national boundaries at will, including into Pakistan. Aren't we better off making tribal alliances, arming and equipping our tribal allies as our proxies, keeping the Afghanistan government out of hostile hands, and keeping Afghanistan in play?

That sounds great. But how? What needs to be established?

By contrast, Pakistan must be a higher priority in the region. Its secret service, ISI, is a large source of our problems in Afghanistan. Someone is supplying the Taliban. We should go after the sources of supply.


Also sounds great. Predators? Troops? Intrigue? Something else?

206 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:40:31am

re: #203 quickjustice

The Taliban, and their Al Qaeda allies, are being supplied by elements of the Pakistani ISI, Iran & the usual Gulf Arabs who have funded Al Qaeda for the past decade. Knowing who they are is only part of the problem. Figuring out how to go after them is the hard part.

207 Coracle  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:40:48am

re: #204 NukeAtomrod

We could take off the kid gloves and stop worrying about hearts and minds. If we kicked ass until we were wading knee-deep in blood and gore--You know, actually try to win the war--the Taliban would get as sick of the bloodshed as we already are. And the Pakistanis would probably turn tail and run, because they won't want to be in the way on the Taliban's reckoning day.

I don't believe that for one second. You assume the enemy there has even a shred of our world view.

208 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:41:52am

As of Feb. 2009, only 4% of Afghans wanted the Taliban back in power, while 82% prefer the democracy they have:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Check Question #10

209 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:41:59am

re: #205 Coracle

Predators are proving effective in Pakistan. There has been some success in cutting off the money flow from the Gulf. But to date, no serious effort has been made at stopping Iranian assistance to the Taliban.

210 beens21  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:42:07am

if you are going to watch track tonite do not read this Bolt... 19.19 in 200m.unbelievable

211 CommonCents  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:42:55am

re: #204 NukeAtomrod

re: #158 SasquatchOnSteroids


We could take off the kid gloves and stop worrying about hearts and minds. If we kicked ass until we were wading knee-deep in blood and gore--You know, actually try to win the war--the Taliban would get as sick of the bloodshed as we already are. And the Pakistanis would probably turn tail and run, because they won't want to be in the way on the Taliban's reckoning day.

I truly abhor violence and war, but those are the only tools that will make peace with an opponent that has no other goal than your destruction.

"An enemy should know when they are conquered" -- Maximus Decimus Meridius (Gladiator)

212 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:43:37am

re: #198 Ringo the Gringo

This is a dirty little secret of the Afghan economy. Afghanistan's climate is perfect for cotton production, but the global cotton cartel doesn't want the competition. With cotton precluded, Afghan farmers can only raise opium as a cash crop.

We should be encouraging cotton production in Afghanistan, and Afghanistan's integration into the global economy. To protect cotton producers elsewhere, we're not.

213 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:44:20am

re: #205 Coracle

To take my six-month seminar, you have to pay up! ;-)

214 Coracle  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #213 quickjustice

To take my six-month seminar, you have to pay up! ;-)

Hey - if you've got a seminar, I want to see it pitched.

215 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:46:34am

re: #207 Coracle

re: #204 NukeAtomrod


I don't believe that for one second. You assume the enemy there has even a shred of our world view.

I'm not sure I understand your objection.

Do you think that the Taliban/Al-Queda wants something else from us?

Or do you think they aren't capable of reaching a point when they will want peace, no matter how much damage we do to them?

Or something else...?

216 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:47:52am

re: #214 Coracle

Sorry-- you're not eligible without a security clearance! ;-)

217 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:48:48am

re: #208 Salamantis

Question 18 is interesting...

The US military is more popular (63% approval) than NATO (59%) and much more popular than the Taliban (8% approval).

So much for the imperialist war.

218 Rancher  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:48:53am

re: #195 Kenneth

re: #175 Rancher


No, the Taliban are Pashtuns, an ethnic group which lives on both sides of the Af-Pak border.


My bad, your right, its a Pashtun word for student isn't it? I meant they came out of Pakistani madrassas with Pakistani support but now I remember they were primarily Afghan refugees.

219 kynna  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:49:07am

But I thought conservatives only wanted Obama to fail at everything. So confused. ///

220 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:50:29am

How soon Americans, as reflected in these polls, forget their history; the parallel here is that Hitler could have been easily stopped numerous times during the run-up to WW2.

But we wanted our narcissistic isolation, and we lost about 400,000 Americans stopping him.

The smaller and remoter battles are well worth fighting.

The tragedy now is that we have idiotic leadership which might go along with the lazy and ignorant public.

221 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:50:46am

re: #218 Rancher

That's right. Afghan refugees from Pakistan, educated by Saudi Wahabis.

222 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:52:12am

re: #211 CommonCents

re: #204 NukeAtomrod


re: #158 SasquatchOnSteroids


We could take off the kid gloves and stop worrying about hearts and minds. If we kicked ass until we were wading knee-deep in blood and gore--You know, actually try to win the war--the Taliban would get as sick of the bloodshed as we already are. And the Pakistanis would probably turn tail and run, because they won't want to be in the way on the Taliban's reckoning day.

I truly abhor violence and war, but those are the only tools that will make peace with an opponent that has no other goal than your destruction.


"An enemy should know when they are conquered" -- Maximus Decimus Meridius (Gladiator)

It's the rule that our adversaries themselves follow - religiously:

3 different tanslations of Sura 9 verse 29 follow:

YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

223 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:52:53am

re: #169 lawhawk

We only can afford two out of three: (1) state of the art infrastucture; (2) strong military with global capabilities; (3) massive social entitlements.

Which two do you think Obama has selected?

224 Coracle  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:53:07am

re: #215 NukeAtomrod

I'm not sure I understand your objection.

Do you think that the Taliban/Al-Queda wants something else from us?

Or do you think they aren't capable of reaching a point when they will want peace, no matter how much damage we do to them?

Or something else...?

The second and third.

If we go after them balls to the wall, they'll fight to the last breath. And they'll gain sympathy and new recruits from other hardliners who currently don't fight but think of any outside presence as an invasion.

I think the tribal alliance path is the most likely successful, but I worry it's going to be a devils choice between warlords - how.

225 Coracle  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:53:46am

re: #216 quickjustice

Sorry-- you're not eligible without a security clearance! ;-)

Hey - as long as people who can act on it get it, I don't need it.

226 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 11:59:27am

re: #13 lawhawk

And this is the war that should have been fought according to all the lefties who opposed the US efforts in Iraq.

Now, where are those same people? Oh right, they're back to having their head in the sand - ignoring the threat that failed states pose when terrorists like al Qaeda make them a safe haven from which to plot, train, and expedite terror attacks around the world.

Now, most of these Democrats oppose the war in Afghanistan? It's little wonder that the media is talking up the death toll among US troops there, even though we're nearly 8 years from the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent US invasion of Afghanistan to eliminate the Taliban who harbored al Qaeda.

They too want to ignore the threat, which hasn't left, but migrated into the border region with Pakistan, and from where terrorists from al Qaeda continue to carry out their deadly intent.

This was so wearingly predictable, as utterly tiresome as the retrospective idolatry of the Woodstock epiphany on its 40th anniversary.

It was obvious from the beginning that the pop-left's nominal support for the Afghan campaign was simply misdirection, a false alternative put forward only so long as it was useful for undermining the struggle in Iraq. They intended all along to turn against the Afghanistan operation as soon as Iraq was out of the picture.

They never dreamed that success, rather than the failure for which they lusted, would be the outcome in Iraq but, one way or the other, they are now free to assert their true position on Afghanistan, their true "feelings." This is simply a reversion to the position they held before the Iraq operation, when Chomsky screamed genocide, the Berkeley city council voted unanimously to condemn military action, and Robert Fisk blamed his richly deserved beating on the dire effects of American bombing.

The left profits from defeat, as dramatically demonstrated by their iconic victory in Vietnam. They own it. They will do whatever is in their power to bring it about, as reflexively and predictably as the sun rises in the east.

227 Kragar  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:03:00pm

re: #198 Ringo the Gringo

I think it was Christopher Hitchens who suggested that, rather than burning down the Afghan poppy fields, we make them legal and allow them to sell opium to pharmaceutical companies instead of drug lords, thereby creating a profitable industry for Afghanistan while diminishing the illegal heroin market.

Yeah, but the companies aren't likely to show up at the farmer's door in the middle of the night and kill them and their families for selling to the drug lords. You've got to look at the other incentives which are out there.

228 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:07:37pm

re: #223 quickjustice

We only can afford two out of three: (1) state of the art infrastucture; (2) strong military with global capabilities; (3) massive social entitlements.

Which two do you think Obama has selected?

(3) and (3)
yes, that's what I mean

229 johnnygriswold  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:08:55pm

The war is worth fighting, but not when you get to upwards of ten years fighting this kind of enemy.

Our economy is in shambles and yet we're still paying for this war.

I think we had every right to go into Afghanistan and Iraq, but whatever happened to good old fashioned annihilation?

War is hell, but I don't want it to be hell for my country.

230 Robert O.  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:09:34pm

I am going to play devil's advocate here.

Some people quite sincerely believe Afghan democracy will bring to that country the values we cherish like respect for the rights of individuals, gender equality, tolerance for religious minorities, etc., and Afghan democracy will be under threat if we left. But time and time again, our obsession with setting up "Muslim democracies" have backfired, due to our own wide-eyed naivety and our inability to recognize these Muslim cultures are fundamentally different from us. All over the world, Muslims have proven very willing to democratically elect Islamists who fetishize Sharia, oppress women, and advocate war with the west. Are we forgetting the Gazans who elected Hamas? Are we ignoring the multitude of women in the Iranian Basij who happily voted for Ahmadinejad? Why are we still in delusions that Hamid Karzai and the rest of his folks are as fervently religious, anti-Semitic, anti-Western, and are as eager to kill the apostate (already proven) and homosexual (already proven) as anyone in Afghanistan?

The notion that all of humanity shares fundamental beliefs in common, that given the chance, we'd all choose freedom and individuality is the misguided thinking typically associated with the left. Sadly, in Afghanistan and in other countries, there is no shortage of people - half of them women - who support Islamism, who value following Allah above their self interests, who therefore believe education for girls is a sin and are willing to be second-class citizens. We think this is crazy, but there is no shortage of craziness in this world! Scientologists and Raelians are crazy in their own way, Islam is just another cult by a different name!

In order to make democracy work, it requires overturning Afghanistan's Islamic values in a manner similar to the de-Nazification of Germany following WW2; and replacing fundamentalist Islam with socially liberal, secular values of the west. That is not going to happen - not in a thousand years (they culture is still in the Middle Ages). The people who would rise to power in Afghanistan will never let it happen because they wouldn't be elected.

Thus, we need to establish what our objectives are in Afghanistan. Clearly, our conern is stopping terroris,- whether this is directed against us, against India, or Israel, or anyone else. The question then is, do we need to spend HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS each year, sacrifising the lives of hundreds of NATO soldiers, to prop up this Islamic insanity that cannot be modernized, and will continue to be anti-progress, anti-women, anti-Jew, anti-West, no matter how much we wished otherwise? Or are there cheaper methods of achieving the same thing?

Note that this is not about kowtowing to Islam; this is about finding an optimum strategy to fight it and contain it. And I don't think the Iraqis / Afghans are worth a single American life. We can, after all, kill uppity militants with drones and long range bombers without risking a single soldier.

231 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:12:23pm

re: #227 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The farmers need security first. The only reason they grow the poppies is because the Taliban forces them to. Farmers make better money growing food, but the Taliban and the drug lords make more money of the opium.

It all comes back to security:

232 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:17:35pm
233 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:17:44pm

re: #230 Robert O.

Your argument is based on uninformed sweeping generalizations. For example, according to this poll 92% of Afghans support education for girls.

234 medaura18586  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:21:58pm

re: #230 Robert O.

Note that this is not about kowtowing to Islam; this is about finding an optimum strategy to fight it and contain it.


Yep. That's really what it's about. What are you doing on this site, I wonder. JihadWatch would be much more to your liking.

235 wahabicorridor  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:30:02pm

re: #230 Robert O.

I updinged you - not because I agree with all your assumptions - I don't - but you've elucidated some good questions. The big one for me is - this is a culture back in the stone age and we aren't going to change that? So define achievable goals.

We could wipe the Taliban out. Except for the new rules on battlefield capture of these guys when we basically have to read them their Miranda rights. I can only hope this results in taking far fewer prisoners but I'm not holding my breath.

We're letting NATO run the show. That's absolute bullshit. They couldn't run a one-car funeral w/o 18 lbs. of paperwork and no ammo.

I wish more troops were the answer. I think they certainly COULD be w/o the bureaucracy that's been imposed, but as things are now apparently we will be sending lawyers and not warriors.

And I think one BIG reason support for this war is declining is because we've ended up fighting for a regime that just passed a law allowing marital rape and starvation of wives who do not submit to their husband's sexual demands.

Personally, that makes me feel complicit.

The other side of the problem is what happens if we DON'T fight? And there lies the rub.
Think things are bad now? Try the cut-n-run method and see what happens.

So I think it's necessary, but I would really like to castrate Karzai.

236 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:42:18pm

re: #235 wahabicorridor

We didn't go into Afghanistan to wipe out the Taliban, & it should not be our goal or a measure of success. We did go there to destroy Al Qaeda, and we should not stop until we achieve that. As for fixing Afghanistans miriad social problems, political corruption, tribalism, backwardness, lack of economic development... well those are all nice things, but we can't do any of it until we provide security, and that means destroying Al Qaeda and knocking back the Taliban.

237 wahabicorridor  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:47:36pm

re: #236 Kenneth

We didn't go into Afghanistan to wipe out the Taliban, & it should not be our goal or a measure of success. We did go there to destroy Al Qaeda, and we should not stop until we achieve that. As for fixing Afghanistans miriad social problems, political corruption, tribalism, backwardness, lack of economic development... well those are all nice things, but we can't do any of it until we provide security, and that means destroying Al Qaeda and knocking back the Taliban.

Missions change as the battlefield develops. You know that. There IS no security w/o taking these thugs out. But I do have a question - are we even sure Al Queda is still in Afghanistan in any significant measure and not moved to Pakistan? And quite frankly, I am at a loss to figure out how to recognize 'success' in this theater. Failure, however, I completely get.

238 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:49:03pm

re: #3 experiencedtraveller

Win the war.

How?

239 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:52:34pm

re: #230 Robert O.

You're not playing Devil's advocate - you're spot on.

240 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:58:20pm

re: #237 wahabicorridor

Mission creep is a problem we should guard against. The public is turning against this war, in part I believe because it has never been accurately defined for them. As far as I have heard, NATO troops are still fighting combined Taliban/AQ cells in Afghanistan. In major battles in Panjwei valley in 2006, the Canadians estimated 50% of the enemy was foreign, ie, Al Qaeda. Reports are that hasn't changed much since. The senior leadership of both the Taliban & AQ is in Pakistan, as are their training camps. The predator missions are taking a toll on them. More please.

I would define victory as a minimal military condition:

1. Al Qaeda destroyed. Not weakened, destroyed.
2. Taliban knocked back sufficiently to convince them to give up the fight and join the political process.

Anything more than that is a bonus.

241 wahabicorridor  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 1:09:29pm

re: #240 Kenneth

2. Taliban knocked back sufficiently to convince them to give up the fight and join the political process.

Yeah, that's the part I think won't work. Oh, yeah, we could ultimately convince them to 'join the process' - but given the tribal culture and a complete lack of any national sentiment, it would simply become a spoils system.

And to be perfectly frank, I base much of my assessment on conversations I've had with the ladies who work at the HairCuttery. Almost all of them are Afghani. As far as they are concerned the ONLY reason they are literate is because the Soviets let them go to school.
They hate everyone of those warlords - Dostum, Hekmatyar (especially him) - and what they old told me they love about America is that they can have dogs. Fatima told me - "There are no starving dogs in the street here and if there are, there are ways to help them. This is a kind society. Even the dogs. Even the dogs."

She had 2 dogs and I wanted me to help her go thru the rescue/shelter process so she could get a third. HA! I told her 2 was plenty.

She was not unusual.

242 Kenneth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 1:16:10pm

re: #241 wahabicorridor

I won't argue that they will still have problems. I'm just not sure it should be our problem. We went there because of 9-11 and Al Qaeda. So let's destroy Al Qaeda. We aren't going to solve all of Afghanistan's problems even if we stayed for 100 years.

243 wahabicorridor  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 1:18:54pm

re: #242 Kenneth

Upding. I always enjoy your posts Kenneth. Reading you is never a waste.

Thanks.

244 JSHos  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 1:29:22pm

Of course 7 out of 10 democrats don't think the war is worth the cost. They're afraid it's going to cut into all the free stuff they're expecting from this administration.

245 blangwort  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 1:45:13pm

I saw a signature line once that read "Fifty percent of all graduates are below average." And it occurred to me just now that not everyone graduates.

I guess that explains why so many are in such need of a clue.

246 gregb  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 1:54:20pm

re: #3 experiencedtraveller

Win the war.

Hell, what would Patton do?

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

247 Billy Hank  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 2:22:42pm

Michael Yon [Link: www.michaelyon-online.com...] is over there right now and needs your support. Scroll down for amazing stories.

248 shortshrift  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 2:25:41pm

re: #235 wahabicorridor

Interesting posts. Specially like your later post of the Afghan women's appreciation of America.
You hit on the telling point : Shariah law. Once we stand aside (as I suppose we must) and permit this archaic system to be the basis of the constitution (as in Iraq ) and law, I do not think that any enlightenment values or democratic politics will emerge for a very long time, if ever - no matter how much money we spend on infrastructure or training "security" forces.
It took a very strong leader to impose a secular state in Turkey - but it had to be guaranteed by the army. Now of course, it is slipping away from secularism and the army's constitutional role is being undermined ( partly by pressure from Europe).
We cannot, sadly, undertake to administer Afghanistan as an imperial power, chucking out Shariah law and imposing our own.
The fight against Al Queda will have to change from an open military counterinsurgency to covert infiltration and assassination operations - with the occasional bombing of known training camps.

249 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 3:00:02pm

re: #241 wahabicorridor

And to be perfectly frank, I base much of my assessment on conversations I've had with the ladies who work at the HairCuttery. Almost all of them are Afghani. As far as they are concerned the ONLY reason they are literate is because the Soviets let them go to school.

I dated a Bulgarian girl, who while too young to have really lived under communism (born in 1983), did tell me that communism did help level the playing field so that women could become educated and professionals. I'd rather deal with godless commies than godful Islamic fanatics any day.

250 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 3:00:50pm

re: #245 blangwort

I saw a signature line once that read "Fifty percent of all graduates are below average."

That can't be true.

251 hopperandadropper  Thu, Aug 20, 2009 9:03:08pm

Let's face facts. Had Bush not gone into Iraq, the Dems would have turned against the war in Afghanistan with the same ferocity they showed against the war in Iraq. They only pretended to support the Afghan war because it allowed them to bitch about the Iraq war without seeming to be as soft as they really are. These people don't believe America actually has any moral authority in the world or any right to use military power for any reason short of actual invasion by a hostile power. Even then they would have mixed feelings about it since we probably brought it on ourselves by past misdeeds. They think America is the problem in the world.


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