The Constitutionality of National Health Insurance

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Health • Sat Aug 22, 2009 at 11:32 am PDT • Views: 416

At the Washington Post, David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey bring up an interesting question about President Obama’s health care legislation: Does the US Constitution give the federal government the authority to require citizens to buy nationalized health insurance?

President Obama has called for a serious and reasoned debate about his plans to overhaul the health-care system. Any such debate must include the question of whether it is constitutional for the federal government to adopt and implement the president’s proposals. Consider one element known as the “individual mandate,” which would require every American to have health insurance, if not through an employer then by individual purchase. This requirement would particularly affect young adults, who often choose to save the expense and go without coverage. Without the young to subsidize the old, a comprehensive national health system will not work. But can Congress require every American to buy health insurance?

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810 comments

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1 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:34:38am
But can Congress require every American to buy health insurance?

It's not an enumerated power of Congress, but they do like to work the interstate commerce and general welfare clauses.

2 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:34:43am
3 Dan G.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:35:00am

This is the first question that should be answered 100% before any legislation gets advanced (health care or otherwise).

4 Kragar  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:35:16am

Simple answer: No

5 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:37:21am

You can't legislate people into healthier ways of living. If people don't want to care about themselves, no law is going to make them.

6 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:37:35am

In the Obamacratic utopian society, we are expected to do whatever we are told by our intellectual "betters." And if we don't, we're hateful, racist, unAmerican nazis.

7 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:38:57am

I wonder if thats why we're seeing a shift from the "it's a right" to 'it's the MORAL thing to do" media blitz

8 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:39:27am

I don't find that to be an interesting question.

I find it to be THE question.

The answer is No, Nada, Fageddaboutit.

9 jcm  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:40:26am

re: #5 Sharmuta

You can't legislate people into healthier ways of living. If people don't want to care about themselves, no law is going to make them.

The corollary then being, we their free choices require them to access health care do they have a legitimate claim on society to pay for that care?

10 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:41:01am

now we are getting somewhere...unfold the Big C and see what's in there...I resist the feds penalizing me because I won't buy something...fuck that

11 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:41:09am

From Whittle:

Constitutional rights protect us from things: intimidation, illegal search and seizure, self-incrimination, and so on. The revolutionary idea of our Founding Fathers was that people had a God-given right to live as they saw fit. Our constitutional rights protect us from the power of government.

But these new so-called “rights” are about the government — who the Founders saw as the enemy — giving us things: food, health care, education... And when we have a right to be given stuff that previously we had to work for, then there is no reason — none — to go and work for them. The goody bag has no bottom, except bankruptcy and ruin.

Does that ring a little familiar these days? Because isn’t the danger here that if you’re offered something for nothing… you’ll take it?

Only it’s not something for nothing. “Free” health-care costs us something precious, and no less precious for being invisible. Because there’s a word for someone who has their food, housing and care provided for them… for people who owe their existence to someone else.

And that word is “slaves.”

12 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:41:15am

re: #5 Sharmuta

You can't legislate people into healthier ways of living. If people don't want to care about themselves, no law is going to make them.

We;re already heading that way. Nutritional Info posted at fast food places (gee ,, you mean Big Macs 24/7 ISN"T healthy?? but, but , they have LETTUCE in them")
Laws prohibiting smoking in a restaurant, damned what the owner of the establishment wants!

13 MacDuff  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:41:29am

Well, they forced us to contribute to Social Security. How's that working out for us?

14 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:41:35am

Constitution? Show some empathy.

15 kynna  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:42:12am

re: #11 pink freud

From Whittle:

Constitutional rights protect us from things: intimidation, illegal search and seizure, self-incrimination, and so on. The revolutionary idea of our Founding Fathers was that people had a God-given right to live as they saw fit. Our constitutional rights protect us from the power of government.

But these new so-called “rights” are about the government — who the Founders saw as the enemy — giving us things: food, health care, education... And when we have a right to be given stuff that previously we had to work for, then there is no reason — none — to go and work for them. The goody bag has no bottom, except bankruptcy and ruin.

Does that ring a little familiar these days? Because isn’t the danger here that if you’re offered something for nothing… you’ll take it?

Only it’s not something for nothing. “Free” health-care costs us something precious, and no less precious for being invisible. Because there’s a word for someone who has their food, housing and care provided for them… for people who owe their existence to someone else.

And that word is “slaves.”

I love Whittle. He can be snarky but he always makes an informed point.

16 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:42:17am

re: #9 jcm

The corollary then being, we their free choices require them to access health care do they have a legitimate claim on society to pay for that care?

no, they get billed for services...pay up

17 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:42:49am

Interesting question.

Does the Constitution permit the feds to require all workers to pay into Social Security?

What about the income tax?

I would suspect the answer will fall out in the same way as with those two.

18 Bloodnok  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:43:14am

Interesting column. I look forward to hearing the debate about this aspect, though it will probably only be left to pundits to discuss.

19 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:43:37am

re: #5 Sharmuta

You can't legislate people into healthier ways of living.


FREE GOVERNMENT CHEESE BRUSSEL SPROUTS

20 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:44:04am

How can I pay for my gubment health insurance when I have no job?

21 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:44:06am

Could the federal government regulate the wheat a farmer grows on his own land and his family eats in their own home?

In Wickard v. Filburn in 1942 the Supreme Court decided "YES." Because withholding evan that much from the market would have economic impact on interstate commerce.

Of course the federal government could require everyone to buy insurance, because (as the WaPo piece admits) economic participation by the young is required to make insurance for the old and sick affordable.

As for answering this question before any law is passed, cannot do. The Supreme Court is limited to deciding "cases and controversies," and is not allowed to give advisory opinions.

22 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:44:14am

re: #15 kynna

Clear vision. No problem determining who wears the black hats and who wears the white ones.

23 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:44:33am

re: #20 Cannadian Club Akbar

How can I pay for my gubment health insurance when I have no job?

Trust me.

~Barack Isuzu.

24 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:45:04am

re: #20 Cannadian Club Akbar

How can I pay for my gubment health insurance when I have no job?

You wouldn't have to. That's what employed people's taxes are for -- to pay for the insurance of unemployed people.

25 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:45:08am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Interesting question.

Does the Constitution permit the feds to require all workers to pay into Social Security?

What about the income tax?

I would suspect the answer will fall out in the same way as with those two.

The 13th Amendment allows for an income tax.

26 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:45:15am

re: #20 Cannadian Club Akbar

How can I pay for my gubment health insurance when I have no job?

same way they'll pay for that mortgage they coulnd't (shouldn't) have,,,same way they'll pay for that UNclunker they now have...

27 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:46:37am

re: #11 pink freud

And that word is “slaves.”

Obama is just doing what he said he would do in that 2000 radio interview - make the Constitution more about social justice (my ass) and a more a document of 'positive' powers, things the government should be doing as opposed to being a limit on federal powers.

Insane.

28 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:46:46am

re: #25 MandyManners

The 13th Amendment allows for an income tax.

What about Soc. Sec. payments? Are they legally mandatory under the Constitution? They are separate from income tax.

29 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:46:56am

re: #25 MandyManners

The 13th Amendment allows for an income tax.

and to this day there is much controversy as to the legitimacy of that amendment...jus sayin, stuff is not always what it seems

30 Gearhead  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:47:26am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Interesting question.

Does the Constitution permit the feds to require all workers to pay into Social Security?

What about the income tax?

I would suspect the answer will fall out in the same way as with those two.

16th Amendment

31 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:47:35am

re: #28 Cato the Elder

What about Soc. Sec. payments? Are they legally mandatory under the Constitution? They are separate from income tax.

I said nothing about SS.

32 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:47:41am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Interesting question.

Does the Constitution permit the feds to require all workers to pay into Social Security?

What about the income tax?

I would suspect the answer will fall out in the same way as with those two.

Exactly, Cato.
But this is the birth of a new wingnut talking point-- one which, not coincidentally, is going to appeal to the anti-government extremist types who already think the gov't shouldn't be allowed to collect income tax.

All sensible discussion will be lost in the ensuing fray. This will be the second wave of wingnut opposition: anti-gubmint types with guns hanging outside town halls.

33 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:47:42am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Interesting question.

Does the Constitution permit the feds to require all workers to pay into Social Security?

What about the income tax?

I would suspect the answer will fall out in the same way as with those two.

The Constitution was amended to permit the income tax. I think Social Security is a regulation by the executive branch, which has a lot more leeway than the legislative branch. Which explains why Obama is trying to get everything he can under control of the White House.

34 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:47:48am

re: #28 Cato the Elder

What about Soc. Sec. payments? Are they legally mandatory under the Constitution? They are separate from income tax.

SS should have been voluntary...now we can see why

35 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #30 Gearhead

16th Amendment


Shit. You're right. PIMF.

36 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:47:59am

re: #11 pink freud

Hi ya pink!

Who was it that said something like "necessity is the tool of tyrants and the creed of slaves"? something like that. I think it was a Brit.

37 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:48:04am

Some people make personal choices that are detrimental to their long term health. These choices will be costly down the road. Why should I pay for your poor decision making? And why should you pay for mine?

38 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:48:38am

re: #28 Cato the Elder

What about Soc. Sec. payments? Are they legally mandatory under the Constitution? They are separate from income tax.

To expand the question: What if I declare that I want no S.S. payments or benefits in the future in favor of keeping my money now? Can I opt out? Would I have a constitutional argument for doing so?

39 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:48:40am

re: #29 albusteve

and to this day there is much controversy as to the legitimacy of that amendment...jus sayin, stuff is not always what it seems

Was it added in accordance with the rules?

40 MacDuff  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:48:52am

re: #27 Van Helsing

People OF the government, BY the government and FOR the government.

41 JarHeadLifer  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:48:58am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Interesting question.

Does the Constitution permit the feds to require all workers to pay into Social Security?

What about the income tax?

I would suspect the answer will fall out in the same way as with those two.

Not the same. Check out the clarification on income taxes that was the point of the 16th Amendment. And, Social Security is technically a tax - the payroll tax.

42 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:49:19am

re: #29 albusteve

and to this day there is much controversy as to the legitimacy of that amendment...jus sayin, stuff is not always what it seems

No, there isn't.

43 Gearhead  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:49:20am

re: #35 MandyManners

Shit. You're right. PIMF.

Not a typo, Mandy, just a Freudian slip - the 13th did away with involuntary servitude.

44 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:49:23am

re: #32 iceweasel

Exactly, Cato.
But this is the birth of a new wingnut talking point-- one which, not coincidentally, is going to appeal to the anti-government extremist types who already think the gov't shouldn't be allowed to collect income tax.

All sensible discussion will be lost in the ensuing fray. This will be the second wave of wingnut opposition: anti-gubmint types with guns hanging outside town halls.

some people are okay with govt in your personal finances...others are not, it's a matter of principle

45 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:49:47am

re: #32 iceweasel

Exactly, Cato.
But this is the birth of a new wingnut talking point-- one which, not coincidentally, is going to appeal to the anti-government extremist types who already think the gov't shouldn't be allowed to collect income tax.

All sensible discussion will be lost in the ensuing fray. This will be the second wave of wingnut opposition: anti-gubmint types with guns hanging outside town halls.

Do you support the current health care bill on the table?

46 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:49:52am

re: #43 Gearhead

Not a typo, Mandy, just a Freudian slip - the 13th did away with involuntary servitude.

Oh, you're good.

47 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:50:04am

re: #27 Van Helsing

Obama is just doing what he said he would do in that 2000 radio interview - make the Constitution more about social justice (my ass) and a more a document of 'positive' powers, things the government should be doing as opposed to being a limit on federal powers.

Insane.

Yes, he is. Fortunately, those who believe in social justice are still in the minority. The notion is fundamentally flawed and anti-American.

48 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:50:05am

re: #5 Sharmuta

You can't legislate people into healthier ways of living. If people don't want to care about themselves, no law is going to make them.

And as we know, currently, the house proposal (the one we are allowed to have a copy of) proposes to amend the IRS tax code and adds a provision to tax you 2.5 percent of your annual adjust gross income if you don't opt into some plan, private or public.

Sec. 401

49 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:50:05am

re: #32 iceweasel

Are you saying that MANDATORY participation (for the general welfare, lets say) is enumerated in the constitution?

50 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:50:08am

re: #31 MandyManners

I said nothing about SS.

But I'm asking about it. Not you, only, but anyone who cares to answer. It seems to be an analogous case: insurance payments mandated by the government.

Who is our resident constitutional scholar?

51 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:51:05am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

But I'm asking about it. Not you, only, but anyone who cares to answer. It seems to be an analogous case: insurance payments mandated by the government.

Who is our resident constitutional scholar?


You asked about the income tax and SS.

52 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:51:46am

re: #36 wahabicorridor

Hi ya pink!

Who was it that said something like "necessity is the tool of tyrants and the creed of slaves"? something like that. I think it was a Brit.

Hi Wahabi!

I don't know who he said but he sounds like he 'got it'.

53 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:51:47am

re: #39 MandyManners

Was it added in accordance with the rules?

there are huge amts of fishy business getting that ratified in several states...a whole netherworld of corruption and misuse of the process...people don't know and don't care...it's a fascinating story

54 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:52:07am

re: #38 Cato the Elder

To expand the question: What if I declare that I want no S.S. payments or benefits in the future in favor of keeping my money now? Can I opt out? Would I have a constitutional argument for doing so?

Didn't Bush want you to be able to opt out in favor of taking that monies and investing as you see fit?

Oh ,wait ,,, thats because he wanted to "DESTROY" SS !!

55 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:52:10am

re: #40 MacDuff

People OF the government, BY the government and FOR the government.

The fastest growing employment sector is government.

How many new bureaucracies will cap & trade and health care reform create?

56 freetoken  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:52:15am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Does the Constitution allow the gov't to require vaccinations?


We can come up with a long list of actions/things that are not in the Constitution but in which the government is fully involved.

57 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:52:26am
"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more." -

Michelle Obama

58 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:52:27am

re: #38 Cato the Elder

To expand the question: What if I declare that I want no S.S. payments or benefits in the future in favor of keeping my money now? Can I opt out? Would I have a constitutional argument for doing so?

yes, I think so

59 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:52:36am

So this is progress.
I'm having a hard time seeing it.

60 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:52:58am
61 swamprat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:53:13am

Well, we have social security.
Can we ask the same questions?
Looks like the same sack of worms with a different label.

62 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:53:14am

re: #45 Racer X

Do you support the current health care bill on the table?

There is no current health care bill on the table. The Gang of Six (representing 2.27% of the American public) is still shitting on it.

63 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:53:20am

Re: the Constitutionality of Social Security, see

Helvering v. Davis

(or, if you prefer, wiki)

64 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:53:20am

re: #45 Racer X

Do you support the current health care bill on the table?

The current bill, by which I assume you mean HR3200, is not going to pass as it is.

I support a public option.

Have to see what mess they come up with, and then I'll let you know if I support it-- looks pretty ugly at the moment, though.

65 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:53:47am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

But I'm asking about it. Not you, only, but anyone who cares to answer. It seems to be an analogous case: insurance payments mandated by the government.

Who is our resident constitutional scholar?

I think SS and government health care are two totally separate things. When we get old and can no longer work we all need a place to stay and food on the table. SS addresses that (mostly). Not everyone will need expensive health care. There are varying needs based on lifestyle choices.

66 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:54:20am

re: #54 sattv4u2

Didn't Bush want you to be able to opt out in favor of taking that monies and investing as you see fit?

Oh ,wait ,,, thats because he wanted to "DESTROY" SS !!

No, he just wanted to privatize it for his masters.

67 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:54:33am

Short answer--No. But, we are required by law to contribute to FICA. Congress could do so under its tax & spend powers and the incorporation clause of the 14th Amendment.
If they want to do it, they will find a way.

68 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:54:53am

re: #59 SasquatchOnSteroids

So this is progress.
I'm having a hard time seeing it.

No. This is progressives in charge of our government.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:55:00am

Now, what about education? Is it constitutional to require that you put your children in school or prove you're providing an equivalent education at home, as is, I believe, required by all 50 states?

70 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:55:38am

re: #52 pink freud

Got it

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

71 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:55:39am

re: #62 Cato the Elder

There is no current health care bill on the table. The Gang of Six (representing 2.27% of the American public) is still shitting on it.

Exactly. Now the Republicans are whimpering about how health care reform really should need a super-super majority to pass. Why? Because they say so!

72 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:55:49am

re: #64 iceweasel

The current bill, by which I assume you mean HR3200, is not going to pass as it is.

I support a public option.

Have to see what mess they come up with, and then I'll let you know if I support it-- looks pretty ugly at the moment, though.

Especially this little gem

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

According to section 163, the standards will “enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service . . . ” In addition, they will “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

Yup , thats what I want ,,, The Governmnet with direct access to my bank accounts 24/7

73 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:55:51am

re: #5 Sharmuta

You can't legislate people into healthier ways of living. If people don't want to care about themselves, no law is going to make them.

True, but would anyone without health coverage have the constitutional right to demand care should they become sick, or would it be constitutional to let them die if nobody wanted to pay?

In truth, we would not let them die, and they know it, so where is the indignation regarding their behavior?

I am told by someone working for a large US bank that 7% of the employees, who do not have other health coverage but are entitled to it through their job, decline to pay $100 or so per month and forgo any insurance.

Are they included in the "uninsured" calculations for health care reform?

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:56:34am

re: #65 Racer X

I think SS and government health care are two totally separate things. When we get old and can no longer work we all need a place to stay and food on the table. SS addresses that (mostly). Not everyone will need expensive health care. There are varying needs based on lifestyle choices.

Hardly only on lifestyle choices, though.

75 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:56:36am

re: #65 Racer X

I think SS and government health care are two totally separate things. When we get old and can no longer work we all need a place to stay and food on the table. SS addresses that (mostly). Not everyone will need expensive health care. There are varying needs based on lifestyle choices.

Bullshit. If you think your health is permanently and primarily controllable through your lifestyle choices, better check your genes first. And make sure you don't breath the wrong chemicals. Or get past a certain age.

Every one of us will get sick and die. It's a corollary to getting old, which you already accept as a fact.

76 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:57:33am

re: #75 Cato the Elder

Every one of us will get sick and die. Not me,, I plan on living forever

So Far, So Good

77 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:57:38am

re: #66 Cato the Elder

No, he just wanted to privatize it for his masters.

his masters were smart people...I am battling with SS at this moment to retrieve some of my money back...and I want all my dad's unused funds returned to me...it was his hard earned money and I want it by rights...fuck the feds...legal thieves and extortionists...take your taxation and shove it

78 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:57:38am

The Constitution is no match for President Wee Wee and his loyal band of loons.
I wonder if everyone's favorite "wise Latina" will end up making the final decision.

79 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:57:42am

The goddamn government has no fucking business telling me what I must buy.

Go to hell

80 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:57:53am

re: #73 Naso Tang

I am told by someone working for a large US bank that 7% of the employees, who do not have other health coverage but are entitled to it through their job, decline to pay $100 or so per month and forgo any insurance.

Are they included in the "uninsured" calculations for health care reform?

Yes- if someone is choosing to go uninsured, they'd count as "uninsured" because they are uninsured. I've seen no breakdown of those without insurance by choice vs those who want it but cannot afford it.

81 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:58:28am

re: #71 iceweasel

Exactly. Now the Republicans are whimpering about how health care reform really should need a super-super majority to pass. Why? Because they say so!

Steele called the Dems out Thursday.

Bring it. You've got the votes ? Then do it.

82 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:58:30am

re: #71 iceweasel

Exactly. Now the Republicans are whimpering about how health care reform really should need a super-super majority to pass. Why? Because they say so!

kill the bill...
get on board the winning side

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:58:45am

Come on, someone, talk to me about public education...

84 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:59:02am

re: #71 iceweasel

Exactly. Now the Republicans are whimpering about how health care reform really should need a super-super majority to pass. Why? Because they say so!

Democrats are doing a lot of whimpering themselves. Just jam it through and STFU if you think it's so great. But no, they haven't got the balls.

85 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:59:11am

re: #72 sattv4u2

Especially this little gem

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

According to section 163, the standards will “enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service . . . ” In addition, they will “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

Yup , thats what I want ,,, The Governmnet with direct access to my bank accounts 24/7

I strongly advise reading the original bill and factchecking. The bill is not going to mean gov't access to all your financial records.

86 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:59:18am

re: #80 Sharmuta

Yes- if someone is choosing to go uninsured, they'd count as "uninsured" because they are uninsured. I've seen no breakdown of those without insurance by choice vs those who want it but cannot afford it.

Exactly. And that's a pretty important statistic in this debate. But I'm not sure how it would be possible to compile that data.

87 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:59:35am

re: #79 Ojoe

The goddamn government has no fucking business telling me what I must buy.

Go to hell

I'm with that guy.

88 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:59:42am

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

Come on, someone, talk to me about public education...

I believe Medaura's out of town right now...

89 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:59:44am
90 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:59:53am

re: #79 Ojoe

The goddamn government has no fucking business telling me what I must buy.

Go to hell

Oh, now you've gone and done it. Report to the front of the line at once.

91 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:00:08pm

I don't think I should be made to buy health insurance if I don't want it. I also think that the current system needs reform to help people who want it but can't afford it. But forcing folks who don't want insurance to have it isn't my idea of reform.

92 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:00:14pm

re: #79 Ojoe

The goddamn government has no fucking business telling me what I must buy.

Go to hell

As I said in #73, I accept that right, but you would still call 911 if you had a heart attack, whether you could afford to be self insured or not, would you not?

93 freetoken  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:00:19pm

re: #78 Lincolntf

The answer is obvious and included in the WP opinion piece:

Of course, these constitutional impediments can be avoided if Congress is willing to raise corporate and/or income taxes enough to fund fully a new national health system.

So if requiring buying insurance is shown to be unconstitutional the back up plan is to revert to the government-provided plan. E.g., expand both medicare/medicaid in scope (of what is covered) and make them available to everybody in the country.

94 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:00:25pm

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

Come on, someone, talk to me about public education...

ah whent too pulbik shule

95 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:00:30pm

re: #64 iceweasel

The current bill, by which I assume you mean HR3200, is not going to pass as it is.

I support a public option.

Have to see what mess they come up with, and then I'll let you know if I support it-- looks pretty ugly at the moment, though.

Thank you.

I agree the current bill is a mess, and further debate is needed. I can't help but wonder what would we have if the original bill was passed? What if everyone just slurped down the Obama koolaid and passed what Nancy and Harry put together? Yikes.

I am not sure I support a public option though. I would prefer tax relief or financial assistance (welfare) for those who cannot afford health care.

96 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:00:42pm

re: #89 taxfreekiller

Lt. for life John F. Kerry is a traitor,

Sarah Palin is not.

Traitor, liar...who's counting?

97 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:01:12pm

re: #84 kansas

Democrats are doing a lot of whimpering themselves. Just jam it through and STFU if you think it's so great. But no, they haven't got the balls.

Upding because I completely agree with you. You may be surprised to learn that a majority of the lefty-sphere, and certainly the progsphere, does as well.

As a progressive, I am not registered Democrat and I have only slightly less loathing for the Democrats than I do the Republicans.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:01:18pm

re: #94 MandyManners

ah whent too pulbik shule

In Anatevka? ('shule'?)

99 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:01:20pm

I seriously doubt that, in the beginning, Barack Obama would have concerned himself over the constitutionality of this proposal.

100 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:01:26pm

re: #85 iceweasel

I strongly advise reading the original bill and factchecking. The bill is not going to mean gov't access to all your financial records.

Could you point out in 3200 where that is, or just like Obama do we take your word for it?

101 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:01:38pm

re: #80 Sharmuta

I've seen no breakdown of those without insurance by choice vs those who want it but cannot afford it.

This is the closest I've come to finding something.

9.7 million of these uninsured are not US citizens.

14 million of them are eligible for the government programmes Medicaid or SCHIP, but not registered. If they ever presented at an 'emergency room' they would be signed up.

17.6 million of those without insurance earn more than $50,000 per year. 10 million of them earn more than $75,000. That means that around 38 percent of the uninsured probably make enough to afford health insurance, but for some reason choose not to buy it.
18.3 million of the uninsured are under 34. Many of those may simply think, mistakenly or otherwise, that they do not need health insurance.

102 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:01:46pm

re: #92 Naso Tang

Depends. I look forward to croaking when my time comes.

103 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:01:58pm
104 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:02:12pm

re: #75 Cato the Elder

Bullshit. If you think your health is permanently and primarily controllable through your lifestyle choices, better check your genes first. And make sure you don't breath the wrong chemicals. Or get past a certain age.

Every one of us will get sick and die. It's a corollary to getting old, which you already accept as a fact.

So everyone will need expensive health care?

105 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:02:31pm

re: #71 iceweasel

The Republicans are whimpering? They're not even in on the debate. The Dems own the entire process from the House, to the Senate, to the White House. The only ones whimpering are the power-mad idiots who crafted the bill and then realized that the American people actually wanted to see what was in it. That screwed up all their plans.
Nothing fouls a Liberal agenda like an informed public.

106 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:02:37pm

re: #89 taxfreekiller

Bite me.

107 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:02:44pm

re: #79 Ojoe

The goddamn government has no fucking business telling me what I must buy.

Go to hell

Up Ding.

108 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:02:55pm

re: #91 Sharmuta

I don't think I should be made to buy health insurance if I don't want it. I also think that the current system needs reform to help people who want it but can't afford it. But forcing folks who don't want insurance to have it isn't my idea of reform.

But my point, call it a digression if you will, is that there are plenty of people who can afford it but don't bother, knowing they will get care anyway. Particularly the young who have little assets to lose, and think they will live forever anyway.

109 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:03:10pm

re: #100 kansas

Could you point out in 3200 where that is, or just like Obama do we take your word for it?

Yeah, hang on, I'm multi-tasking as usual...I'll find some links.

110 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:03:20pm

re: #105 Lincolntf

The Republicans are whimpering? They're not even in on the debate. The Dems own the entire process from the House, to the Senate, to the White House. The only ones whimpering are the power-mad idiots who crafted the bill and then realized that the American people actually wanted to see what was in it. That screwed up all their plans.
Nothing fouls a Liberal agenda like an informed public.

Informed and pissed off now.

111 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:03:21pm

Can someone tell me why the feds need to be involved in this? Don't most states already have a system for people living in the poverty zone?

Arizona does. Massachusetts does.

Others?

Why is it so imperative to send buckets of money to the feds to be sent back to the states?

112 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:03:43pm
The court reaffirmed this rationale in 2005 in Gonzales v. Raich, when it validated Congress's authority to regulate the home cultivation of marijuana for personal use. In doing so, however, the justices emphasized that -- as in the wheat case -- "the activities regulated by the [Controlled Substances Act] are quintessentially economic." That simply would not be true with regard to an individual health insurance mandate.

But Obamaramadingdong says that health care is crucial to our economic recovery.

I don't think this court would overturn a health bill.

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:03:54pm

re: #104 Racer X

So everyone will need expensive health care?

Probably not, but the problem is that we have no way of knowing who will need it, any more than we have any way of knowing whose house will catch fire. That's why we buy insurance.

114 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:04:02pm

re: #104 Racer X

So everyone will need expensive health care?

Trig Palin should have watched his lifestyle choices. Why should anyone else pay for his Down syndrome?

115 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:04:22pm

re: #102 Ojoe

Depends. I look forward to croaking when my time comes.

Careful what you say. People may agree with you. :=)

116 MacDuff  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:04:31pm

re: #55 Van Helsing

The fastest growing employment sector is government.

How many new bureaucracies will cap & trade and health care reform create?

It seems to me that EVERYTHING this administration proposes is specifically designed to grow the government bureaucracy and diminish the individual. This is one of, if not THE most pernicious administrations in history...either that, or they are a special type of stupid heretofore not seen.

Whichever is the case, we are witnessing a profound change, for the worse, in the American landscape that will not be soon repaired.

117 swamprat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:04:35pm

The funding of roads works. I have no idea whether or not it is corrupt, or how efficient it is, but it works.
Mexico manages to provide gasoline to their own people for less per gallon than the U.S.
We can do what we want to do.
I doubt the outcome, however, when we have secret deals, not so secret deals, pandering to special interests, caving in to misrepresentations, and lawmakers trying to sell something they have not read because it is 900 pages long and has 4 versions.
This is a farce.

118 MikeySDCA  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:04:44pm

As John Ehrlichman, then Counsel to the President, said in the early days of the Watergate Coverup, "F*** the Constitution. We'll worry about that later."

119 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:04:50pm

re: #111 Van Helsing

Can someone tell me why the feds need to be involved in this? Don't most states already have a system for people living in the poverty zone?

Arizona does. Massachusetts does.

Others?

Why is it so imperative to send buckets of money to the feds to be sent back to the states?

Because now it's in God's plan. And by the way, Happy Ramadan.

120 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:05:01pm

re: #108 Naso Tang

But my point, call it a digression if you will, is that there are plenty of people who can afford it but don't bother, knowing they will get care anyway. Particularly the young who have little assets to lose, and think they will live forever anyway.

Mostly people get care because hospitals feel it's their duty, and it perry much is. Some states have laws that say hospitals can't turn people away, but some hospitals wouldn't turn people away anyways.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:05:02pm

re: #108 Naso Tang

But my point, call it a digression if you will, is that there are plenty of people who can afford it but don't bother, knowing they will get care anyway. Particularly the young who have little assets to lose, and think they will live forever anyway.

There are also people like myself not too long ago, who can't get it at reasonable rates because we're 'risks'. In my case, I wear a Misses XL, that was my risk factor.

122 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:05:30pm

re: #25 MandyManners

The 13th Amendment allows for an income tax.

Oops, but I'll let my up-ding stand.

123 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:05:32pm

re: #89 taxfreekiller

and she looks better in a skirt.//

124 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:05:40pm

re: #84 kansas

Democrats are doing a lot of whimpering themselves. Just jam it through and STFU if you think it's so great. But no, they haven't got the balls.

Egg fucking Zactly!

Republicans are whimpering now?
Bull
Shit

If Republicans kept their mouth shut we would all currently have the health care bill that someone up above referred to as "pretty ugly".

Whimper away my friends.

125 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:05:50pm

re: #105 Lincolntf

The Republicans are whimpering? They're not even in on the debate. The Dems own the entire process from the House, to the Senate, to the White House. The only ones whimpering are the power-mad idiots who crafted the bill and then realized that the American people actually wanted to see what was in it. That screwed up all their plans.
Nothing fouls a Liberal agenda like an informed public.

no shit...talk about disconnect...this rootin tootin health care scam will destory the crazy donks and their super libs, progs, and whatever else they call themselves...either that or we all get dragged down with them...and if that's the case look for a major outbreak of social mayhem...BO and his prog minions are dangerous

126 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:06:20pm

re: #119 kansas

Because now it's in God's plan. And by the way, Happy Ramadan.

Oh. That's different then.
Nevermind...

127 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:06:20pm

re: #91 Sharmuta

I don't think I should be made to buy health insurance if I don't want it. I also think that the current system needs reform to help people who want it but can't afford it. But forcing folks who don't want insurance to have it isn't my idea of reform.

The reason they want everyone to buy insurance is so that young and healthy people, who will not be making claims, can help pay for insurance for old and sick people, who will have lots of claims.

128 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:06:29pm

re: #38 Cato the Elder

To expand the question: What if I declare that I want no S.S. payments or benefits in the future in favor of keeping my money now? Can I opt out? Would I have a constitutional argument for doing so?

I don't pay social security, we have a firefighters pension. What the exact law is covering what it takes to have a pension instead of paying into social security I don't know.

129 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:06:41pm

re: #117 swamprat

This is a farce.

When we have congresscritters who don't read the bill and say publicly that they don't know why they should, and bills that are 900 pages long so maybe they have an argument, and a president who lies publicly and repeatedly about the simplest matters showing him ignorant or dishonest ...

... then we shall have farce.

130 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:07:14pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

Mostly people get care because hospitals feel it's their duty, and it perry much is. Some states have laws that say hospitals can't turn people away, but some hospitals wouldn't turn people away anyways.

Public ("non-profit") hospitals can't turn people away. I'm pretty sure private hospitals can.

131 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:07:43pm

re: #25 MandyManners

No-- the 13th freed the black slaves. The 16th made us all slaves of the government.

132 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:07:47pm

re: #85 iceweasel

I strogly suggest you read section 163 of the "bill" (although there is no such thing,,, it's the houses proposed version) It calls for access to electronic banking. Ostensibly it's for the gov't to give you occasional remittances should you overpay, but it could (will) also be used if you are behind in co-payments, etc

133 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:07:55pm

I don't know if you're all aware of it, but I am a licensed farceur.

134 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:00pm

re: #101 wahabicorridor

Here is the best breakdown on the uninsured and where those numbers come from:

That 46 million number -- which to be exact, is actually 45.7 million -- comes from the U.S. Census Bureau, which releases estimates of the uninsured yearly. That estimate is for 2007, and the data was released in 2008. (The 2008 data is scheduled for release on Sept. 10, 2009.)

The Census Bureau is not the only government agency that collects numbers on the uninsured, but it is often cited because it has the biggest sample, contacting about 97,500 households to ask about their insurance and other factors.

The Census Bureau calls these people each spring, and it asks if they were insured at any time during the previous year. They run through a list of questions of all the ways people could have been covered to make sure. If a person had insurance for even one day during the year, they are not counted as uninsured.

That seems like a nice, conservative way to measure, but the census number still has a few critics. Researchers have noticed that the census numbers tend to be a bit higher than some of the other government surveys collected for similar time periods. For example, in 2007, a survey from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found the full-year uninsured population to be 40 million, not 45.7 million.

The researchers have a suspicion about the reason for the difference: people's bad memories. The Census Bureau calls people and asks them to think back during the past year as to whether they were insured or not. The other survey calls the people back every few months and ask if they're insured at that moment.

Looking back to Obama's statement, though, he said nearly 46 million Americans don't have insurance. Actually, the census data include noncitizens. The Census Bureau breaks out that information and reports that 9.7 million of the uninsured are noncitizens. So the number of Americans without insurance is actually closer to 36 million.

BTW, I highly recommend politifact as a nonbiased fact check source especially on health care info. . For those interested, they also keep a running total of broken Obama promises.

135 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:01pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

There are also people like myself not too long ago, who can't get it at reasonable rates because we're 'risks'. In my case, I wear a Misses XL, that was my risk factor.

I presume you are not part of a corporation, where plans do not evaluate risks. This is my biggest single complaint about our system; namely how it discriminates against individuals because they don't have clout.

136 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:06pm

re: #105 Lincolntf

The Republicans are whimpering? They're not even in on the debate. The Dems own the entire process from the House, to the Senate, to the White House. The only ones whimpering are the power-mad idiots who crafted the bill and then realized that the American people actually wanted to see what was in it. That screwed up all their plans.
Nothing fouls a Liberal agenda like an informed public.

This paragraph in the linked article stuck out. Apparently, keeping one's seat trumps the 'good of the nation'.

Of course, these constitutional impediments can be avoided if Congress is willing to raise corporate and/or income taxes enough to fund fully a new national health system. Absent this politically dangerous -- and therefore unlikely -- scenario, advocates of universal health coverage must accept that Congress's power, like that of the other branches, has limits.
137 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:10pm

re: #130 Lynn B.

Public ("non-profit") hospitals can't turn people away. I'm pretty sure private hospitals can.

Yes- though many don't as they feel it's their job to care for the ill.

138 Gearhead  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:16pm

Any Certified Procedural Coders out there?

My wife, a CPA, went to a meeting yesterday. Part of the meeting covered coming changes to the system of codes that doctors use to bill the insurance companies. In order to provide the insurance companies with more information, the current system of about 10,000 codes (IIRC) is going to over 100,000. Average cost for an office of 5-8 doctors to implement: $250,000.

The Democrats have us debating the wrong things. They sell public insurance as a panacea without dealing with any of the factors that contribute to costs (torts, regulations, etc.)

139 Shug  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:19pm
But can Congress require every American to buy health insurance?

not to mention the 15 million illegal aliens who will be required to have coverage

140 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:27pm

re: #128 kcladderman

I don't pay social security, we have a firefighters pension. What the exact law is covering what it takes to have a pension instead of paying into social security I don't know.

There's no such law. If you work, you pay into social security, pension or not.

141 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:38pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

I don't know if you're all aware of it, but I am a licensed farceur.

yeah, sure, in Hawaii ...

142 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:08:51pm

re: #129 itellu3times

When we have congresscritters who don't read the bill and say publicly that they don't know why they should, and bills that are 900 pages long so maybe they have an argument, and a president who lies publicly and repeatedly about the simplest matters showing him ignorant or dishonest ...

... then we shall have farce.

Hate to be picky but 3200 is 1017 pages in pdf. There is no way anyone has a clue what is int this thing. They might be able to quote passages, but most of them are clauses dependent upon other sections and both are usually open to interpretation. Obama is just a scammer trying to socialize the country and he has been called on it and he is wetting his bed.

143 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:10pm

re: #141 itellu3times

yeah, sure, in Hawaii ...

You wanna see my certifikit?

144 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:19pm
Of course, these constitutional impediments can be avoided if Congress is willing to raise corporate and/or income taxes enough to fund fully a new national health system. Absent this politically dangerous -- and therefore unlikely -- scenario, advocates of universal health coverage must accept that Congress's power, like that of the other branches, has limits.


Whoomp! There it is.

145 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:25pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

Trig Palin should have watched his lifestyle choices. Why should anyone else pay for his Down syndrome?

I rarely downding. I save it for comments that are genuinely stupid, and when posters are in desperate need of treatment. This is one of those times.

146 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:32pm

re: #100 kansas

Could you point out in 3200 where that is, or just like Obama do we take your word for it?

Section 163 of the proposed House bill is pretty short. I've read it, and it wouldn't take long for the rest of us to read it too. I don't see any ominous threats to financial privacy in it. I think it just makes sure that people can pay for health care using credit cards, electronic bank transfers, etc. I think arguing that Section 163 gives the government the right to spy on all of your financial information falls into the same category as that Fox News reporter on the Glenn Beck show claiming that the cars.gov website could "get inside you."

147 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:36pm

re: #127 nonic

The reason they want everyone to buy insurance is so that young and healthy people, who will not be making claims, can help pay for insurance for old and sick people, who will have lots of claims.

Yeah- I get that.

I still don't think I should be forced to purchase insurance for myself if I don't want to.

148 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:38pm

re: #131 calcajun

No-- the 13th freed the black slaves. The 16th made us all slaves of the government.

it did...well said...it was the first big meal to feed the beast...and now all these decades later they are out of control...this bill is just another example

149 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:41pm

re: #100 kansas

Could you point out in 3200 where that is, or just like Obama do we take your word for it?



“enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service . . . ” In addition, they will “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

150 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:49pm

re: #136 jaunte

This paragraph in the linked article stuck out. Apparently, keeping one's seat trumps the 'good of the nation'.

I trust that did not come as a huge surprise to you, did it?

151 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:51pm

re: #132 sattv4u2

I strogly suggest you read section 163 of the "bill" (although there is no such thing,,, it's the houses proposed version) It calls for access to electronic banking. Ostensibly it's for the gov't to give you occasional remittances should you overpay, but it could (will) also be used if you are behind in co-payments, etc

Cite the part that says it will be used in that way, please.

You can't, because it isn't there.

152 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:09:54pm

As I've posted before, if the federal government can't tell a woman she can't have an abortion because SCOTUS says it is unconstitional, by what Constitutional authority can the federal government stick its nose in ANY health care choice/decision/issue...

153 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:03pm

In business, realistic assessment of service delivery tells us that we can have speed of service, and quality of service, at a high cost, or for the sake of cutting cost, sacrifice some speed or some quality. There is a small industry of consultants who make money advising businesses how to eke out small improvements in this quality-speed-cost triangle.

So far few proponents of the government plan have admitted that sacrifices will be required under that plan. This avoidance of real issues is dishonest.

I haven't seen any arguments so far in the health insurance debate that suggest the government will overcome this problem of tradeoffs.

154 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:08pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

I don't know if you're all aware of it, but I am a licensed farceur.

a black belt even

155 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:19pm

re: #142 kansas

Maybe we can pass a law that every congressperson must recite the bill in its entirety, correctly, and from memory, before voting.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:20pm

re: #135 Naso Tang

I presume you are not part of a corporation, where plans do not evaluate risks. This is my biggest single complaint about our system; namely how it discriminates against individuals because they don't have clout.

I wasn't at the time, I was a grad student. Eventually bought coverage through the school, but it was not pleasant to find out that I was not insurable at the age of thirty, in perfectly good health.

157 MacDuff  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:23pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

I don't know if you're all aware of it, but I am a licensed farceur.

What a coincidence, so is the President!

158 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:24pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

I don't know if you're all aware of it, but I am a licensed farceur.

What sort of test do you have to take for that?

159 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:26pm

re: #108 Naso Tang

But my point, call it a digression if you will, is that there are plenty of people who can afford it but don't bother, knowing they will get care anyway. Particularly the young who have little assets to lose, and think they will live forever anyway.

Little to lose, think they will live forever -- and generally DON'T NEED health care.

Anyway, if you're injured in a car accident, somebody's auto insurance pays. If you're injured at work, workmen's comp pays. Except for pregnancy, young, single people have very little actual need for health insurance.

160 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:35pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

Mostly people get care because hospitals feel it's their duty, and it perry much is. Some states have laws that say hospitals can't turn people away, but some hospitals wouldn't turn people away anyways.

Most hospitals receive state or federal funds to take care of those without coverage, and if not the hospitals adjust the fees, up, for everyone else accordingly. Guess who pays for that?

161 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:41pm

re: #142 kansas

Hate to be picky but 3200 is 1017 pages in pdf. There is no way anyone has a clue what is int this thing. They might be able to quote passages, but most of them are clauses dependent upon other sections and both are usually open to interpretation. Obama is just a scammer trying to socialize the country and he has been called on it and he is wetting his bed.

1017 pages. That doesn't include the numerous references to external regulations.

162 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:10:59pm

re: #143 Cato the Elder

You wanna see my certifikit?

keep it in your mumu.

163 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:11:01pm

re: #151 iceweasel

Cite the part that says it will be used in that way, please.

You can't, because it isn't there.

“enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

164 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:11:24pm

re: #132 sattv4u2

I strogly suggest you read section 163 of the "bill" (although there is no such thing,,, it's the houses proposed version) It calls for access to electronic banking. Ostensibly it's for the gov't to give you occasional remittances should you overpay, but it could (will) also be used if you are behind in co-payments, etc

Nonsense. No more than any direct depositor (such as Social Security and, often, your employer) alreay has.

165 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:11:26pm

re: #145 Racer X

I rarely downding. I save it for comments that are genuinely stupid, and when posters are in desperate need of treatment. This is one of those times.

Somehow I get the impression one person here has a poster of Sarah Palin by his bed and I have an idea that I don't want to know what he is doing with it.

166 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:11:28pm

re: #160 Naso Tang

Most hospitals receive state or federal funds to take care of those without coverage, and if not the hospitals adjust the fees, up, for everyone else accordingly. Guess who pays for that?

Hey- I'm all for reforming the system, but this bill isn't my idea of reform.

167 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:11:49pm

re: #137 Sharmuta

Yes- though many don't as they feel it's their job to care for the ill.

I've worked for private, for-private hospitals. I've never seen a patient turned away because they had no insurance, or were an illegal alien, or whatever. Hospitals take a huge financial beating because they provide expensive care to people with no coverage, care for which they're never reimbursed.

168 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:11:56pm

re: #140 Lynn B.

There's no such law. If you work, you pay into social security, pension or not.

I am afraid you are wrong. I have been a firefighter for over 21 years and not one cent of my check has ever gone into social security

169 Shug  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:12:00pm

Your act is pretty fucking tired

re: #114 Cato the Elder

Trig Palin should have watched his lifestyle choices. Why should anyone else pay for his Down syndrome?

170 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:12:25pm

re: #165 kansas

Ew.

171 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:12:37pm

re: #164 Lynn B.

Nonsense. No more than any direct depositor (such as Social Security and, often, your employer) alreay has.

Can't recall anytime my employer had taken money OUT of my account

172 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:14pm

re: #105 Lincolntf

The Republicans are whimpering? They're not even in on the debate. The Dems own the entire process from the House, to the Senate, to the White House. The only ones whimpering are the power-mad idiots who crafted the bill and then realized that the American people actually wanted to see what was in it. That screwed up all their plans.
Nothing fouls a Liberal agenda like an informed public.

You've got to be kidding. This has been nothing but a massive tantrum thrown by the Republicans.

They're committed to blocking all health care reform. They have to.

That's another reason why the Dems should realise the Repubs have no intention of voting for any proposal. At all.

The majority of Americans want health care reform. Even McCain promised health care reform, remember? The republicans cannot allow any reform to be passed under a dem admin and a dem congress-- because then they'll be out of power for a generation.

173 Gearhead  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:18pm

re: #168 kcladderman

I am afraid you are wrong. I have been a firefighter for over 21 years and not one cent of my check has ever gone into social security

The railroads have a separate system, and ministers can opt out.

174 MacDuff  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:18pm

re: #143 Cato the Elder

You wanna see my certifikit?

Is it a mirth certifikit?

175 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:33pm

re: #169 Shug

You need to see that a comment from a regular is sometimes so far over the top it does not need a sarc tag. This was one of them.

Carry on.

176 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:36pm

re: #134 iceweasel

Oh, good, that's useful. One caveat tho. The Cnesus Bureau hasn't actually counted illegals since the '90s. They do a SWAG now.

177 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:53pm

re: #140 Lynn B.

re: #168 kcladderman

I am afraid you are wrong. I have been a firefighter for over 21 years and not one cent of my check has ever gone into social security

KC is correct. My wife works in Georgia Public schools as a sub often and they too don't deduct SS(not for their fulltime teachers either)

178 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:57pm

re: #169 Shug

Your act is pretty fucking tired

Not to mention incredibly arrogant.

179 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:57pm

re: #165 kansas

Somehow I get the impression one person here has a poster of Sarah Palin by his bed and I have an idea that I don't want to know what he is doing with it.

Its probably this one.

180 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:13:59pm

re: #167 Last Mohican

I've worked for private, for-private hospitals. I've never seen a patient turned away because they had no insurance, or were an illegal alien, or whatever. Hospitals take a huge financial beating because they provide expensive care to people with no coverage, care for which they're never reimbursed.

And I've never gone to a hospital where I saw anyone turned away for treatment. I believe most doctors and hospitals feel it's their moral obligation to treat the sick and injured.

181 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:14:03pm

re: #172 iceweasel

You've got to be kidding. This has been nothing but a massive tantrum thrown by the Republicans.

They're committed to blocking all health care reform. They have to.

That's another reason why the Dems should realise the Repubs have no intention of voting for any proposal. At all.

The majority of Americans want health care reform. Even McCain promised health care reform, remember? The republicans cannot allow any reform to be passed under a dem admin and a dem congress-- because then they'll be out of power for a generation.

News flash. They can't block jack shit.

182 Bloodnok  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:14:03pm

re: #142 kansas

Hate to be picky but 3200 is 1017 pages in pdf. There is no way anyone has a clue what is int this thing. They might be able to quote passages, but most of them are clauses dependent upon other sections and both are usually open to interpretation. Obama is just a scammer trying to socialize the country and he has been called on it and he is wetting his bed.

You know, the "they haven't even read it" line can't work forever. It has been weeks and I would think that by now many (though probably not all) decisionmakers including Obama have either read it or been briefed about its contents in exactly the same fashion as any other long piece of legislation (of which this is just another example). The Dems know they own this so I would guess they are making sure they know what is in it.

183 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:14:07pm

re: #173 Gearhead

The railroads have a separate system, and ministers can opt out.

Teachers also at least in MO.

184 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:14:26pm

re: #91 Sharmuta

I don't think I should be made to buy health insurance if I don't want it. I also think that the current system needs reform to help people who want it but can't afford it. But forcing folks who don't want insurance to have it isn't my idea of reform.

But it's a necessary price tag of "universal" health insurance.

Since we're already talking taxes, it's a good analogy. The county or municipality paves roads and pays the police and firefighters (some places), garbage collectors (some places), etc. You don't have the right to opt out of paying your real estate taxes because the benefits they go to provide are "universally" available to the constituency of the entity to whom they're paid. It would be the same with universal health care.

185 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:14:35pm

re: #163 sattv4u2

“enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

See Lynn B's comment at 164.

186 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:15:04pm

re: #185 iceweasel

See Lynn B's comment at 164.

I did ,, see my 171

187 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:15:18pm

re: #173 Gearhead

The railroads have a separate system, and ministers can opt out.

Some universities also opted out when SS was first formed (a friend used to teach at one, and between his and the university's matching contributions, he was putting about 24% of his salary into a private account, all of which was his, with not one cent going to Social Security).

188 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:15:25pm

re: #147 Sharmuta

Yeah- I get that.

I still don't think I should be forced to purchase insurance for myself if I don't want to.

I agree with you. But the socialists don't.

189 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:15:26pm

re: #172 iceweasel

People vote to have their problems magically removed, which politicians promise to magically do. Then when people see the real proposals, they realize that change may not be all to the good. That's the way sausage making goes.

190 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:15:26pm

re: #176 wahabicorridor

Oh, good, that's useful. One caveat tho. The Cnesus Bureau hasn't actually counted illegals since the '90s. They do a SWAG now.

The full link mentions that btw, and checks with some other organisations to get an illegal count. It's worth reading IMO.

191 Shug  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:15:28pm

He's Crossed the line fron crusty old crunudgeon to just plain TROLL.

GAZEre: #178 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Not to mention incredibly arrogant.

192 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:15:31pm

re: #168 kcladderman

I am afraid you are wrong. I have been a firefighter for over 21 years and not one cent of my check has ever gone into social security

I don't know if it is still the case but my father worked in federal service of one kind or another and did not pay into social security.

Federal employees (including elected officials) have a different plan than social security.

193 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:03pm

bbaaw, aico

194 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:06pm

re: #171 sattv4u2

Can't recall anytime my employer had taken money OUT of my account

Exactly. Because the access they have doesn't authorize them to do that.

And neither would the access provided by "the bill."

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:07pm

re: #159 nonic

Little to lose, think they will live forever -- and generally DON'T NEED health care.

Anyway, if you're injured in a car accident, somebody's auto insurance pays. If you're injured at work, workmen's comp pays. Except for pregnancy, young, single people have very little actual need for health insurance.

Unless you walk in front of a bus, or fall off your bike, or discover cancer, or get in a bar fight, or...

And even if someone else's insurance covers it, you can be in a lot of financial trouble by the time they pay out.

196 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:17pm

re: #172 iceweasel

You've got to be kidding. This has been nothing but a massive tantrum thrown by the Republicans.

They're committed to blocking all health care reform. They have to.

That's another reason why the Dems should realise the Repubs have no intention of voting for any proposal. At all.

The majority of Americans want health care reform. Even McCain promised health care reform, remember? The republicans cannot allow any reform to be passed under a dem admin and a dem congress-- because then they'll be out of power for a generation.

Your post doesn't make sense. You say Repubs will not vote for any health care bill at all? That would be political suicide. As you say - even McCain promised health care reform.

197 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:30pm

For thee not for me.

198 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:41pm

re: #171 sattv4u2

Can't recall anytime my employer had taken money OUT of my account

No, but how about your landlord, or your credit card company, or your utility company, or the grocery store, or the ATM of a bank that isn't your own bank? I don't see that Section 163 gives the government or your doctor or anyone else any more power than all of these entities already have.

199 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:45pm

re: #182 Bloodnok

You know, the "they haven't even read it" line can't work forever. It has been weeks and I would think that by now many (though probably not all) decisionmakers including Obama have either read it or been briefed about its contents in exactly the same fashion as any other long piece of legislation (of which this is just another example). The Dems know they own this so I would guess they are making sure they know what is in it.

Pages?

They are the party of good intentions, they don't have to read no pages, they don't have to read no stinking pages.

200 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:47pm

re: #191 Shug

He's Crossed the line fron crusty old crunudgeon to just plain TROLL.

GAZE

Pathetic
/leaving to cool off

201 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:16:57pm

re: #182 Bloodnok

You know, the "they haven't even read it" line can't work forever. It has been weeks and I would think that by now many (though probably not all) decisionmakers including Obama have either read it or been briefed about its contents in exactly the same fashion as any other long piece of legislation (of which this is just another example). The Dems know they own this so I would guess they are making sure they know what is in it.

It's still open to interpretation. IMO they are probably just hearing Obama and Axelrod talking points to sell the big turd.

202 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:17:08pm

re: #172 iceweasel

You've got to be kidding. This has been nothing but a massive tantrum thrown by the Republicans.

They're committed to blocking all health care reform. They have to.

That's another reason why the Dems should realise the Repubs have no intention of voting for any proposal. At all.

The majority of Americans want health care reform. Even McCain promised health care reform, remember? The republicans cannot allow any reform to be passed under a dem admin and a dem congress-- because then they'll be out of power for a generation.

this bill is not reform...thanks for setting that up...this thing is so terrible it is transcending parties...republicans are doing everything they can to stop it...

203 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:17:18pm

re: #172 iceweasel

The majority of Americans want health care reform. Even McCain promised health care reform, remember? The republicans cannot allow any reform to be passed under a dem admin and a dem congress-- because then they'll be out of power for a generation.

How about they just address the problem of the un-insured that are un-insured because they can't afford insurance?

Address the other issues later if the above is such a 'crisis'.

204 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:17:52pm

re: #181 kansas

News flash. They can't block jack shit.

Egg Zactly!

Democrats can pass whatever their little hearts desire. No Repub votes are needed. At All.

So why don't we have health care?

205 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:17:52pm

re: #194 Lynn B.

Exactly. Because the access they have doesn't authorize them to do that.

And neither would the access provided by "the bill."

Please define this then!


“enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service . . . ” In addition, they will “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

206 Gearhead  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:18:05pm

Well, back to the lawn mower. Later, lizards.

207 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:18:07pm

Politifact is a highly partisan (liberal) organization run by the St. Petersburg Times, a notoriously left-leaning and agenda-driven publication.

A little history:

Newsmen recall the day JFK was assassinated

""The St. Petersburg Times newsroom was in controlled pandemonium," writes Martin Dyckman. "I was standing at the teletype when the first flash came in that a suspected Marxist, Lee Harvey Oswald, was being held in connection with the shooting.Times Publisher Nelson Poynter was standing nearby when I announced that. His face fell. 'Oh, no,' he said. 'I was hoping it would be a right-winger.'"

208 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:18:22pm

re: #152 christheprofessor

As I've posted before, if the federal government can't tell a woman she can't have an abortion because SCOTUS says it is unconstitional, by what Constitutional authority can the federal government stick its nose in ANY health care choice/decision/issue...

Hiya, Chris! Long time. :-)

Roe was decided on "privacy" grounds. The government could rely on "commerce" or "welfare" to stick its nose in.

209 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:18:31pm

re: #172 iceweasel

Ahem. The GOP is impotent to stop this. If the Dems so desired, they would run this through and rub it in the face of the GOP. Win or lose, the Dems own this issue entirely. Blaming the GOP for its failure either betrays an ignorance of the system or is cravenly disingenuous.

210 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:18:44pm

re: #181 kansas

News flash. They can't block jack shit.

Newsflash: They can throw fake tantrums about made up shit like 'death panels' and get armed and angry lunatics screaming at Townhalls, and get the spineless Dems to drop a perfectly good provision like 1233 as a result.

They can throw a tantrum every week about made up shit instead of having a serious discussion about the real issues and real problems with the bill.

Which is what they've been doing. And the Dems fall for it every time.

211 capitalist piglet  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:18:46pm

re: #203 Van Helsing

How about they just address the problem of the un-insured that are un-insured because they can't afford insurance?

Address the other issues later if the above is such a 'crisis'.

I'll tell you why not in two words.

The first one is POWER. The second is GRAB.

212 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:18:53pm

re: #198 Last Mohican

No, but how about your landlord, or your credit card company, or your utility company, or the grocery store, or the ATM of a bank that isn't your own bank? I don't see that Section 163 gives the government or your doctor or anyone else any more power than all of these entities already have.

ONLY if I authorize it a=i n all those cases

Under MANDATORY there is no CHOICE ,, MANDATORY! being the key word

213 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:18:58pm

Perhaps I miss read this, but I thought Cato's point had to do with the fact insurance companies don't cover children like Trig Palin because they consider him to have a pre-existing condition. So it would be the insurance companies saying Trig should have made better life-style choices.

214 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:19:12pm

re: #172 iceweasel

I must be kidding?
It's your "leaders" who have resorted to infantile language and cries of "un-American" to squelch all discussion of this monstrosity. Pathetic group of chumps doesn't even know how to govern when they control ALL the power.

215 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:19:17pm

re: #168 kcladderman

I am afraid you are wrong. I have been a firefighter for over 21 years and not one cent of my check has ever gone into social security

Then you're part of a very rare and select minority. Since I'm too lazy to spell this out myself ... this is the quickest summary I could find but at a quick glance it appears to be accurate

Almost all employed and self-employed workers are covered by Social Security and are expected to pay FICA tax or self-employment taxes. The major exceptions are most civilian federal government employees hired before 1984 (they are covered by and pay the 1.45% tax for Medicare but not for Social Security retirement benefits) and about 25% of state and local government employees with a pension plan. There are also other limited exceptions that apply (e.g., some on-campus college student employment).

[Link: www.extension.org...]

216 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:19:24pm

re: #204 Racer X

Egg Zactly!

Democrats can pass whatever their little hearts desire. No Repub votes are needed. At All.

So why don't we have health care?

Most of us do and there is Medicaid for the poor and Medicare for the elderly. Unfortunately for Obama, he shoved one too many things in our orifices.

217 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:19:41pm

re: #168 kcladderman

I am afraid you are wrong. I have been a firefighter for over 21 years and not one cent of my check has ever gone into social security

This is all quite interesting. I've been paying into Social Security for years, and it never even occurred to me that I might be able to opt out.

218 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:19:51pm

re: #207 pink freud

Politifact is a highly partisan (liberal) organization run by the St. Petersburg Times, a notoriously left-leaning and agenda-driven publication.

A little history:

Newsmen recall the day JFK was assassinated

""The St. Petersburg Times newsroom was in controlled pandemonium," writes Martin Dyckman. "I was standing at the teletype when the first flash came in that a suspected Marxist, Lee Harvey Oswald, was being held in connection with the shooting.Times Publisher Nelson Poynter was standing nearby when I announced that. His face fell. 'Oh, no,' he said. 'I was hoping it would be a right-winger.'"

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

*breath*

Hahahahahahahaha!

Non-partisan my ass.

219 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #171 sattv4u2

Can't recall anytime my employer had taken money OUT of my account

I know I have direct deposit and have actually been over payed a couple of times(though some might argue I am over payed all of the time) even though I have direct deposit the city could not take the money back out of my account.
Though they did get it back the next check.

220 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:19:56pm

re: #210 iceweasel

Newsflash: They can throw fake tantrums about made up shit like 'death panels' and get armed and angry lunatics screaming at Townhalls, and get the spineless Dems to drop a perfectly good provision like 1233 as a result.

They can throw a tantrum every week about made up shit instead of having a serious discussion about the real issues and real problems with the bill.

Which is what they've been doing. And the Dems fall for it every time.

We should trust people this stupid to fix something as important as helath insurance reform?

221 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:20:05pm

health

222 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:20:35pm

I think it's Typo Day.

223 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:20:35pm

re: #210 iceweasel

Newsflash: They can throw fake tantrums about made up shit like 'death panels' and get armed and angry lunatics screaming at Townhalls, and get the spineless Dems to drop a perfectly good provision like 1233 as a result.

They can throw a tantrum every week about made up shit instead of having a serious discussion about the real issues and real problems with the bill.

Which is what they've been doing. And the Dems fall for it every time.

there was never a notion of serious discussion...that's a fantasy...you are simply wrong again

224 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:20:43pm

re: #179 Racer X

Its probably this one.

Nice site!

Maybe Charles can borrow this one for certain threads.

225 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:20:46pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

Please define this then!

“enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service . . . ” In addition, they will “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

Last Mohican already explained that really well at #146.

226 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:20:52pm

re: #219 kcladderman

I know I have direct deposit and have actually been over payed a couple of times(though some might argue I am over payed all of the time) even though I have direct deposit the city could not take the money back out of my account.
Though they did get it back the next check.

exactly. Under the section in 3200, it's a two way street

227 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:21:08pm

re: #159 nonic

Little to lose, think they will live forever -- and generally DON'T NEED health care.

Anyway, if you're injured in a car accident, somebody's auto insurance pays. If you're injured at work, workmen's comp pays. Except for pregnancy, young, single people have very little actual need for health insurance.

I think you miss the point of insurance, which is a spreading of risk. At what point does one need insurance? After one gets sick, or after a certain age? We have a moral obligation to help people who are sick and can't pay for treatment, but you simultaneously think that those who can afford it should not be expected to pay into the kitty.

"Somebody's" auto insurance doesn't pay. Your auto insurance pays ultimately, because your rates are based on the risk assessment that an accident will happen. "Workmen's Comp" doesn't actually pay, they just write the check, which has been paid for by everyone who works.

228 swamprat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:21:14pm

re: #196 Racer X

Your post doesn't make sense. You say Repubs will not vote for any health care bill at all? That would be political suicide. As you say - even McCain promised health care reform.

Nonsense. It makes no sense for them to help send this locomotive over a cliff. Let the Democrats steer, shovel fuel, decide the speed and hold the throttle. When the impending disaster hits they will scrable to find others to blame.

The republicans should all be back at the depot, waving goodbye.

229 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:21:17pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

I think it's Typo Day.

Any day that ends in a "Y" is typo day for me!

230 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:21:22pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

Please define this then!


“enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service . . . ” In addition, they will “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

Beyond that, things like automatic payment of bills are voluntary and authorized by the account holder, as opposed to mandated by the federal government.

231 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:22:14pm

re: #208 nonic

Hey, how ya been?

I know what you are saying re Roe vs. commerce...

232 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:22:17pm

re: #218 Racer X

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

*breath*

Hahahahahahahaha!

Non-partisan my ass.

She keeps saying it.

'Twas time for the truth. :)

233 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:22:24pm

re: #225 Lynn B.

Last Mohican already explained that really well at #146.

ah ,, so it IS in there, it's just not "ominous" (in Mohicans opinion)

234 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:22:28pm

re: #213 Sharmuta

Perhaps I miss read this, but I thought Cato's point had to do with the fact insurance companies don't cover children like Trig Palin because they consider him to have a pre-existing condition. So it would be the insurance companies saying Trig should have made better life-style choices.

I read it as Cato punching a little Downs syndrome kid in the gut. Just because he doesn't like his momma (whom he has never met).

235 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:22:32pm

re: #215 Lynn B.

[Link: www.extension.org...]

Not really that rare

236 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:22:34pm

re: #210 iceweasel

Newsflash: They can throw fake tantrums about made up shit like 'death panels' and get armed and angry lunatics screaming at Townhalls, and get the spineless Dems to drop a perfectly good provision like 1233 as a result.

They can throw a tantrum every week about made up shit instead of having a serious discussion about the real issues and real problems with the bill.

Which is what they've been doing. And the Dems fall for it every time.

Spineless is not my problem You haven't got the balls to defend your takeover then tough.

237 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:23:07pm

re: #217 Last Mohican

This is all quite interesting. I've been paying into Social Security for years, and it never even occurred to me that I might be able to opt out.

Again, you can't. There are very limited exceptions to the requirement to pay FICA taxes but no option to opt out (see my comment at #215). Not going to look up the citation now. That's much too much like "work." Which I don't do today.

238 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:23:15pm
239 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:23:18pm

re: #214 Lincolntf

I must be kidding?
It's your "leaders" who have resorted to infantile language and cries of "un-American" to squelch all discussion of this monstrosity. Pathetic group of chumps doesn't even know how to govern when they control ALL the power.

What, do you have amnesia about the last 8 years? When everyone who criticised the war was called 'unamerican'?

Too bad you didn't have better health care, it might have helped you with that head trauma!

BTW, I DO think it's unamerican for assholes with guns to show up at townhalls or outside them. There's no way anyone can reasonably argue that ISN'T about intimidation and oppressing speech. That's not american politics, it's the politics of the jackboot. What's next, people with semi-automatic weapons riding around in pickup trucks outside? We're not Somalia ffs.

240 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:23:39pm

re: #234 Racer X

I read it as Cato punching a little Downs syndrome kid in the gut. Just because he doesn't like his momma (whom he has never met).

no...Cato did not mean it that way

241 freetoken  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:23:41pm

re: #180 Sharmuta

And I've never gone to a hospital where I saw anyone turned away for treatment. I believe most doctors and hospitals feel it's their moral obligation to treat the sick and injured.

Some of the saddest stories I heard while living in Japan were when hospitals turned down incoming (emergency) patients. Every year there would be stories of women dying because of complications with childbirth, or older people with heart failure, etc.

Also, here in SD county I had a very elderly acquaintance who died when she was turned down at a hospital (while in an ambulance)... and the ambulance had to drive to a much farther hospital.

242 kynna  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:23:57pm

re: #32 iceweasel

Exactly, Cato.
But this is the birth of a new wingnut talking point-- one which, not coincidentally, is going to appeal to the anti-government extremist types who already think the gov't shouldn't be allowed to collect income tax.

All sensible discussion will be lost in the ensuing fray. This will be the second wave of wingnut opposition: anti-gubmint types with guns hanging outside town halls.

Do you even have an informed or rational debating point? Is it always insults with you? How about some substance for once? Oops. Now you're going to cry that none of the wingnuts will accept debate from someone on the left.

Where's this sensible discussion you claim you seek?

243 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:24:24pm

re: #234 Racer X

When one is reduced to mocking the fate of a retarded child in order to score political points, they really should just call it a day.

244 Bloodnok  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:24:30pm

re: #238 opnion

That is so uncalled for it defies description.

245 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:24:33pm

re: #233 sattv4u2

ah ,, so it IS in there, it's just not "ominous" (in Mohicans opinion)

WHAT, exactly, is it that you think LM said "is in there?"

246 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:24:39pm

re: #166 Sharmuta

Hey- I'm all for reforming the system, but this bill isn't my idea of reform.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still taking my apathy pills as far as the details of this/these bill(s) are concerned. I just like to point out what I think are misconceptions about the present system.

247 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:24:59pm

re: #236 kansas

Spineless is not my problem You haven't got the balls to defend your takeover then tough.

Did you miss the part about me not being a Democrat?

248 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:25:17pm

More light, less bile.

249 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:25:24pm

re: #220 jaunte

We should trust people this stupid to fix something as important as helath insurance reform?

Rotating title nomination.

250 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:25:43pm

re: #239 iceweasel

What, do you have amnesia about the last 8 years? When everyone who criticised the war was called 'unamerican'?

Too bad you didn't have better health care, it might have helped you with that head trauma!

BTW, I DO think it's unamerican for assholes with guns to show up at townhalls or outside them. There's no way anyone can reasonably argue that ISN'T about intimidation and oppressing speech. That's not american politics, it's the politics of the jackboot. What's next, people with semi-automatic weapons riding around in pickup trucks outside? We're not Somalia ffs.

not cool at all

251 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:25:53pm

re: #239 iceweasel

Actually, what I heard was a bunch of Dems calling OUR OWN TROOPS un-American.
Remember Murtha, Kerry, etc.? Are they Republicans now?

252 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:26:01pm

re: #249 Racer X

I hope I can correct the spelling first.

253 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:26:17pm

re: #247 iceweasel

Did you miss the part about me not being a Democrat?

Spineless is not my problem. Democrats don't have the balls to defend their socialist plot, then tough. Better?

254 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:26:20pm

#140 Lynn B.

re: #168 kcladderman

I am afraid you are wrong. I have been a firefighter for over 21 years and not one cent of my check has ever gone into social security

Some groups are exempt from Social Security. Whether it's still true, I don't know, but my aunt who was a school teacher never paid into Social Security (and got no benefits) because of a separate program for teachers in Illinois.

255 swamprat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:26:36pm

re: #238 opnion

How do you really feel?

256 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:26:51pm

re: #158 calcajun

What sort of test do you have to take for that?

Chopping up stupid arguments and serving them in a farce or mincemeat pie.

257 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:26:57pm

re: #228 swamprat

Nonsense. It makes no sense for them to help send this locomotive over a cliff. Let the Democrats steer, shovel fuel, decide the speed and hold the throttle. When the impending disaster hits they will scrable to find others to blame.

The republicans should all be back at the depot, waving goodbye.

Part of me wants to agree with you. The other part wants Republicans to force at least some Democrats to THINK, and vote for something that makes sense.

258 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:26:58pm

re: #247 iceweasel

Did you miss the part about me not being a Democrat?

so what?...that has nothing to do with anything...just another label

259 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:27:19pm

re: #250 albusteve

The debating techniques of Progressives are not cool at all

FTFY. :-)

260 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:27:33pm

re: #239 iceweasel

Too bad you didn't have better health care, it might have helped you with that head trauma

For someone who espouses how name calling does nothing for rational debate, you sure revert to it too often imo

261 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:27:40pm

re: #239 iceweasel

What, do you have amnesia about the last 8 years? When everyone who criticised the war was called 'unamerican'?

Too bad you didn't have better health care, it might have helped you with that head trauma!

BTW, I DO think it's unamerican for assholes with guns to show up at townhalls or outside them. There's no way anyone can reasonably argue that ISN'T about intimidation and oppressing speech. That's not american politics, it's the politics of the jackboot. What's next, people with semi-automatic weapons riding around in pickup trucks outside? We're not Somalia ffs.

Actually everyone who criticized the war was given TV time by all the major networks. It's now that Cindy Sheehan can't get the time of day. War? What war? Americans dying still. Who gives a shit?/

262 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:27:53pm

re: #210 iceweasel

What alternate reality did I wake up in this AM?

That's an absurd take on thing.

BTW-- why on earth the genius BHO allowed himself to be baited by the ignorant out of power snowbilly and respond to her directly on the "death panel" issue was dumb of him.

263 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:27:56pm

re: #242 kynna

Where's this sensible discussion you claim you seek?

Here's an example of what would be informed discussion: Summarise for me in one paragraph what the difference would be between the public option and the co-op option. Then we could talk about which is better, and whether either is a good idea.

264 Bloodnok  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:28:01pm

re: #259 pink freud

FTFY. :-)

As opposed to dinging down people who call for civility?

265 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:28:23pm

I have a separate program for Social Security.
It's called saving and investing my money so I won't have to rely on someone else saving and investing their money so I don't have to save and invest my money.
Unicorns are for dopes.

266 VioletTiger  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:28:23pm

Interesting discussion, as usual.

I would also pose the question:
Is healthcare a right? If so, who has granted it?
What about groceries?
Flat screen TVs?

267 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:29:32pm

re: #264 Bloodnok

As opposed to dinging down people who call for civility?

Charles is in charge of civility when we lose control...

268 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:29:54pm

re: #240 albusteve

no...Cato did not mean it that way

I was hoping Cato would clarify. His hatred of Sarah Palin is well known. I though it was a crass jab at Trig.

269 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:29:55pm

re: #266 VioletTiger

"Quality of life" is both expandable and contractable.

270 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:30:15pm

re: #239 iceweasel

BTW, I DO think it's unamerican for assholes with guns to show up at townhalls or outside them. There's no way anyone can reasonably argue that ISN'T about intimidation and oppressing speech. That's not american politics, it's the politics of the jackboot. What's next, people with semi-automatic weapons riding around in pickup trucks outside? We're not Somalia ffs.

Libertarian publicity

Open carry is legal in Arizona.

271 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:30:16pm

re: #260 sattv4u2

Too bad you didn't have better health care, it might have helped you with that head trauma

For someone who espouses how name calling does nothing for rational debate, you sure revert to it too often imo

Hey, if I take a punch, I throw one back. Tough.

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:30:18pm

re: #213 Sharmuta

Perhaps I miss read this, but I thought Cato's point had to do with the fact insurance companies don't cover children like Trig Palin because they consider him to have a pre-existing condition. So it would be the insurance companies saying Trig should have made better life-style choices.

I don't think you misread at all. Health-related problems happen in all families, without warning, and not always because of 'lifestyle choices'. And Down's Syndrome is considered a 'pre-existing condition' insurance companies, with all that entails. It may be hard for Trig to find affordable health insurance as an adult.

273 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:30:19pm

re: #241 freetoken

I feel lucky then to live in an area where our hospitals don't do that.

274 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:30:25pm

re: #241 freetoken

Some of the saddest stories I heard while living in Japan were when hospitals turned down incoming (emergency) patients. Every year there would be stories of women dying because of complications with childbirth, or older people with heart failure, etc.

Also, here in SD county I had a very elderly acquaintance who died when she was turned down at a hospital (while in an ambulance)... and the ambulance had to drive to a much farther hospital.

Are you sure you are not confusing the hospital not taking ambulances at that time. In KC the hospitals will sometimes close to ambulance traffic when they are over ran, though they still take trauma. So this might have been a case of a hospital rerouting an ambulance. In 21 years I have never heard an ER ask over the med radio if the person had insurance.

275 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:30:41pm

re: #266 VioletTiger

Interesting discussion, as usual.

I would also pose the question:
Is healthcare a right? If so, who has granted it?
What about groceries?
Flat screen TVs?

IPhones!!! 2 chickens in every garage & a car in the pot.

276 freetoken  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:31:03pm

re: #248 jaunte

More light, less bile.

Vimeo
277 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:31:09pm

re: #270 Van Helsing

Libertarian publicity

Open carry is legal in Arizona.

So you're defending the AZ gun nuts at the Townhall?

Sure you want to go that route?

278 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:31:28pm

re: #266 VioletTiger

Interesting discussion, as usual.

I would also pose the question:
Is healthcare a right? If so, who has granted it?
What about groceries?
Flat screen TVs?

So if health care is a right, then a doctor must give it to you. Give me my health care you bastard./'

279 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:31:28pm

re: #263 iceweasel

Here's an example of what would be informed discussion: Summarise for me in one paragraph what the difference would be between the public option and the co-op option. Then we could talk about which is better, and whether either is a good idea.

that's way down the list...let's start at the beginning...why is there no tort reform in this bill and how can BO reconcile the deals he is cutting with the pharms...these need to get sorted out first

280 swamprat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:31:39pm

re: #257 Racer X

Part of me wants to agree with you. The other part wants Republicans to force at least some Democrats to THINK, and vote for something that makes sense.

If this healthcare thing(if passed) works, or is viewed favorably, the republicans are sunk.
I have faith that this is the biggest boondoggle since New Coke. but I have been wrong before.

281 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:31:40pm

re: #271 iceweasel

"A punch"?
Such a friggin' drama queen.

282 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:31:58pm

re: #241 freetoken

Also, here in SD county I had a very elderly acquaintance who died when she was turned down at a hospital (while in an ambulance)... and the ambulance had to drive to a much farther hospital.

Were they short on beds? (I've heard stories like that)

283 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:32:08pm

re: #235 kcladderman

Not really that rare

It's a handful of people, relatively speaking. Honest.

284 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:32:11pm

re: #268 Racer X

I was hoping Cato would clarify. His hatred of Sarah Palin is well known. I though it was a crass jab at Trig.

he despises Palin, not her kids

285 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:32:12pm

re: #265 SasquatchOnSteroids

I have a separate program for Social Security.
It's called saving and investing my money so I won't have to rely on someone else saving and investing their money so I don't have to save and invest my money.
Unicorns are for dopes.

If only SS was saving and investing our money.

286 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:32:14pm

re: #268 Racer X

I was hoping Cato would clarify. His hatred of Sarah Palin is well known. I though it was a crass jab at Trig.

Crass jab at the insurance companies. I know folks have their opinion of Cato, but to think he'd attack a special needs child is a bit much for me to take.

287 VioletTiger  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:32:23pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

Unreal.
You really must have a lot of self loathing inside.

288 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:32:50pm

re: #277 iceweasel

So you're defending the AZ gun nuts at the Townhall?

Sure you want to go that route?

I will defend the right of people to act within the law. Doesn't mean it's stellar idea.

289 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:33:00pm

re: #251 Lincolntf

Actually, what I heard was a bunch of Dems calling OUR OWN TROOPS un-American.
Remember Murtha, Kerry, etc.? Are they Republicans now?

Who called the troops "unamerican"? Elected officials? Bollocks.

290 freetoken  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:33:15pm

re: #274 kcladderman

It was some years ago... and I am not sure if I remember all the details. The woman was quite elderly, and the closest hospital to her was a very small one... and I believe she ended up having to go to a UC hospital.

291 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:33:20pm

re: #271 iceweasel

Hey, if I take a punch, I throw one back. Tough.

Look at ice puttin' on the big girl shoes.

Glad to see you pushing back a bit. But be prepared for fact checking. Don't let it get personal - it is not.

292 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:33:25pm

re: #285 Van Helsing

If only SS was saving and investing our money.

Well, of course not. But I'll not live in abject poverty relying on them to take care of me. No ways in Hades.

293 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:33:42pm

re: #243 Lincolntf

When one is reduced to mocking the fate of a retarded child in order to score political points, they really should just call it a day.

Who's mocking? The child's fate is in part dependent on how health care works.

294 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:33:43pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think you misread at all. Health-related problems happen in all families, without warning, and not always because of 'lifestyle choices'. And Down's Syndrome is considered a 'pre-existing condition' insurance companies, with all that entails. It may be hard for Trig to find affordable health insurance as an adult.

And I think that's f*cked up.

295 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:34:10pm

re: #289 iceweasel

Who called the troops "unamerican"? Elected officials? Bollocks.

Can you say, "General Betray Us?"

296 freetoken  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:34:15pm

re: #282 wahabicorridor

Were they short on beds? (I've heard stories like that)

That could have been it. I remember that her close friend (and family) were quite mad at the whole affair.

297 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:34:20pm

re: #270 Van Helsing

The issue isn't if they broke the law. The issue is they were idiots to decide to exercise their rights in that time and place. How on Earth it never occurred to them that they would be made to look like fools, I will never know.

298 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:34:23pm

re: #145 Racer X

I rarely downding. I save it for comments that are genuinely stupid, and when posters are in desperate need of treatment. This is one of those times.

You are irony-impaired. Click back through the chain and you'll see I was mocking the notion that only people who make bad lifestyle choices will really need insurance.

Of course, Trig's mom has good insurance (most likely - gasp! - an Alaska state employee government policy), so she needn't worry for now. But what if Trig goes out on his own - many Down syndrome sufferers do - and at some point needs to get his own policy? "Sorry, Mr. Palin, pre-existing condition, we'll have to exclude Down syndrome and its sequelae from your coverage."

Shoulda done a better job of vetting his parents' genetic pool.

It's called reductio ad absurdum, mate, and if you think I was beating up on Trig, just wait till I set my sights on you.

299 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:34:37pm

re: #289 iceweasel

Who called the troops "unamerican"? Elected officials? Bollocks.

Dick Turdben said their behavior was like that of Pol Pot, and Nazis. Last I heard, those two weren't American. Pelootsi has called people who disagree with her unAmerican.

300 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:34:45pm

re: #260 sattv4u2

Too bad you didn't have better health care, it might have helped you with that head trauma

For someone who espouses how name calling does nothing for rational debate, you sure revert to it too often imo

Constantly.

301 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:35:04pm

re: #212 sattv4u2

ONLY if I authorize it a=i n all those cases

Under MANDATORY there is no CHOICE ,, MANDATORY! being the key word

Here's the deal with the part of Section 163 that we're all talking about. It's an amendment to Section 1173 of the Social Security Act. It further sets standards for allowing health care providers like hospitals to electronically bill insurers. The "real time determination of financial responsibility" part means that, when you go to the doctor, the secretary will be able to determine whether the visit is covered by your insurance, and, if so, what your co-pay is.

Maybe I'm just a sheeple, but I don't find that ominous.

302 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:35:14pm

re: #277 iceweasel

So you're defending the AZ gun nuts at the Townhall?

Sure you want to go that route?

No defense. Just information. I wouldn't open carry to an event like that because it would draw all the WRONG kind of attention.

These clowns did because they wanted ANY attention.

303 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:35:15pm

re: #288 kansas

I will defend the right of people to act within the law. Doesn't mean it's stellar idea.

This is insane. People defending this would have lost their minds if antiwar or anti Bush protestors were showing up at speeches armed.

It's about intimidation and suppression of speech. That's it.

304 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:35:21pm

re: #280 swamprat

If this healthcare thing(if passed) works, or is viewed favorably, the republicans are sunk.
I have faith that this is the biggest boondoggle since New Coke. but I have been wrong before.

New Coke was a fantastic success (for Old Coke). At the time Pepsi was kicking Coke's ass. The public outcry to bring back Coke Classic wiped all of that out.

Another metaphor might be in order.

305 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:36:21pm

re: #286 Sharmuta

Crass jab at the insurance companies. I know folks have their opinion of Cato, but to think he'd attack a special needs child is a bit much for me to take.

I'm not the only one who took offense at his comment. He has yet to clarify his position on it.

306 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:36:38pm

re: #289 iceweasel

Who called the troops "unamerican"? Elected officials? Bollocks.

Hell, Murtha called them murderers (Haditha)

307 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:36:39pm

re: #295 christheprofessor

Can you say, "General Betray Us?"

Moveon is an elected official? Who knew!

308 kynna  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:36:51pm

re: #263 iceweasel

Here's an example of what would be informed discussion: Summarise for me in one paragraph what the difference would be between the public option and the co-op option. Then we could talk about which is better, and whether either is a good idea.

Why are you giving me an assignment to talk about something you say you want to talk about? Why is that my responsibility? Make a substantive point and people will respond to you with substance.

Even your rants about the guns aren't meaningful since the demonstrations are legal. Tell us why you think they shouldn't be legal and what you think the results of the demonstrations might be. Or something. Anything. You're just not saying anything at all.

309 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:37:03pm

re: #289 iceweasel

Who called the troops "unamerican"? Elected officials? Bollocks.

Dick Durbin ring a bell?

Git'mo compared to:

Pol Pot
Soviet Gulags
Concentration Camps

310 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:37:04pm

re: #306 wahabicorridor

Hell, Murtha called them murderers (Haditha)

Still waiting for proof of the 'unamerican' comment.

311 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:37:27pm

re: #306 wahabicorridor

I think Dick Durbin had a few words with the implication, too.

312 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:37:49pm

re: #72 sattv4u2

Just to be clear, there in nothing in this bill that gives the Government access to your bank accounts for anything other than authorized transactions.

I'm going to repost something I posted here yesterday, and probably not for the last time.

You know, it's really really excellent that so many Americans are taking enough interest in this bill to pore over all 1017 pages of it (is that the right number?), although I suspect that a lot of people are cherry-picking what they read and are taking much of it completely out of context. The thing is, though, as I've pointed out here before and with all due respect, reading congressional legislation isn't like reading the front page. You can be really smart and pay a lot of attention, but if you're not used to reading legislative documents and (dare I say) perhaps have had at least a bit of training in doing the same, you're probably going to get a lot of confused and wrong impressions from what you read. And that goes for many of our legislators as well, who do tend to rely on their (legally trained) staff to parse and interpret the bills they're voting on. It's not pretty but, as they say, neither is the making of sausage.

Anyway, for the record, it is my devout wish to see this whole health care reform plan go away just like Hillary's did. I truly believe it's a misguided effort that will dramatically reduce the quality of health care in this country while doing little or (more likely) nothing to reduce costs. Real health care reform is a worthwhile goal. This ain't it.

313 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:38:06pm

re: #303 iceweasel

This is insane. People defending this would have lost their minds if antiwar or anti Bush protestors were showing up at speeches armed.

It's about intimidation and suppression of speech. That's it.

Americans are crazy like that...they know the law and they will push it to the limits...to them they are expressing their own right to free speech...hand around this country long enough and you will see it's not so uncommon, right, wrong or otherwise

314 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:38:10pm

re: #308 kynna

Why are you giving me an assignment to talk about something you say you want to talk about? .

You wanted an example of what would be rational discussion; I provided one. I had no expectations of you.

315 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:38:30pm

re: #303 iceweasel

This is insane. People defending this would have lost their minds if antiwar or anti Bush protestors were showing up at speeches armed.

It's about intimidation and suppression of speech. That's it.

Seems to me you missed my point. Here is some intimidate of speech. Eric Holder thinks it was OK though.

Youtube Video
316 Racer X  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:38:32pm

re: #298 Cato the Elder

GAZE mode is reengaged.

317 kynna  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:38:44pm

re: #277 iceweasel

So you're defending the AZ gun nuts at the Townhall?

Sure you want to go that route?

See, there you go. It's legal. That presents a big problem in stopping it. Here's a spring board to discussion, but you're just going into two-dimensional attack mode.

Now's your chance to talk about something. Run with it.

318 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:38:47pm

re: #289 iceweasel

You seem to share an attribute of one of the founders-- Thomas Jefferson; a conspicuous memory hole. Jack Murtha called all of the Marines accused in the Haditha killings "guilty of murder" before they were court-martialed ---and acquitted. John Kerry's slanders against the troops while in and out of office have been well documented here and in other places. Jim McDermott of WA is another infamous non-supporter of the American military.

If you merely forgot your "sarc" tag, then never mind.

319 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:38:56pm

re: #307 iceweasel

Moveon is an elected official? Who knew!

No, but they buy them.

320 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:38:59pm

re: #301 Last Mohican

Here's the deal with the part of Section 163 that we're all talking about. It's an amendment to Section 1173 of the Social Security Act. It further sets standards for allowing health care providers like hospitals to electronically bill insurers. The "real time determination of financial responsibility" part means that, when you go to the doctor, the secretary will be able to determine whether the visit is covered by your insurance, and, if so, what your co-pay is.

Maybe I'm just a sheeple, but I don't find that ominous.

Yes, that part determines responsibilty of payment and the NEXT part “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.” I find "ominous"

It's in there in the guise of a way to remit you for an overpayment on a co-pay or service, but it's a two way street

What could go IN, could also come OUT

321 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:39:00pm

re: #307 iceweasel

Moveon is an elected official? Who knew!

I thought is was Hillary who said it... Perhaps it was just her mouthpiece, MoveOn...

322 MikeySDCA  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:39:07pm

re: #99 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Have you read The Last Mughal?[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's excellent.

323 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:39:11pm

re: #289 iceweasel

They were equated with Nazi's and terrorists by the dear leaders of the Democrat Party. There's nothing less American than a Nazi.

324 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:39:24pm

re: #291 Racer X


Glad to see you pushing back a bit. But be prepared for fact checking. Don't let it get personal - it is not.

That'd be excellent advice for some others here, I think. :)

325 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:39:48pm

re: #310 iceweasel

Still waiting for proof of the 'unamerican' comment.

So "murder" is American as apple pie?

326 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:40:04pm

re: #289 iceweasel

Who called the troops "unamerican"? Elected officials? Bollocks.

Yeah, that's true. Kerry just accused them terrorizing women and children in the middle of the night and Murtha just called them cold blooded murderers.

Not 'unamerican'.

327 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:40:06pm

re: #227 Naso Tang

I think you miss the point of insurance, which is a spreading of risk. At what point does one need insurance? After one gets sick, or after a certain age? We have a moral obligation to help people who are sick and can't pay for treatment, but you simultaneously think that those who can afford it should not be expected to pay into the kitty.

"Somebody's" auto insurance doesn't pay. Your auto insurance pays ultimately, because your rates are based on the risk assessment that an accident will happen. "Workmen's Comp" doesn't actually pay, they just write the check, which has been paid for by everyone who works.

No. I "get" it. I was just describing the thinking of many young people who feel they do not "need" insurance.

But as a point of fact, it is your OPINION that "We have a moral obligation to help people who are sick and can't pay." Not everyone would agree. But whether people agree with that opinion or not, the FACT IS society DOES pay for those who cannot afford -- as you yourself point out regarding auto insurance and workmen's comp, not to mention COST SHIFTING both for insurance premiums and provider charges.

328 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:40:08pm

re: #298 Cato the Elder

As I tried to mention, some comments are so obviously facetious that they should not require a sarc tag. Sigh.

329 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:40:23pm

re: #318 calcajun

You seem to share an attribute of one of the founders-- Thomas Jefferson; a conspicuous memory hole. Jack Murtha called all of the Marines accused

In other words, he didn't call all our troops 'unamerican', and neither did any other elected official.

330 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:40:37pm

re: #326 Van Helsing

Yeah, that's true. Kerry just accused them terrorizing women and children in the middle of the night and Murtha just called them cold blooded murderers.

Not 'unamerican'.

Don't forget. Obama claimed they were carpet bombing civilians.

331 Gus  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:40:49pm

I'm still wondering about the constitutionality of the self employment tax, and the "occupational privilege tax." Not too much since I tend to avoid those lines of thinking and deal with the stark reality of life.

Anyway, looks like I walked into a major squabble.

RP4409 sucks.

332 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:40:57pm

re: #309 Noam Sayin'

Dick Durbin ring a bell?

Git'mo compared to:

Pol Pot
Soviet Gulags
Concentration Camps

but he didn't call them QUOTE "UNAMERICAN" END QUOTE

//iceweasel mode

333 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:41:05pm

re: #319 kansas

No, but they buy them.

No, they don't.

334 VioletTiger  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:41:09pm

re: #315 kansas

Interesting how it is a different story depending on who does it.

335 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:41:22pm

re: #329 iceweasel

In other words, he didn't call all our troops 'unamerican', and neither did any other elected official.

a hair can only be split so fine...

336 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:41:25pm

re: #310 iceweasel

Still waiting for proof of the 'unamerican' comment.

Way to miss the point.

337 kynna  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:41:35pm

re: #314 iceweasel

You wanted an example of what would be rational discussion; I provided one. I had no expectations of you.

So start that freaking conversation! What's your take. Be prepared for some pushback and informed debate.

338 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:41:54pm

re: #329 iceweasel

What about Dick Durbin. The entire context of his floor speech was against Git'mo on the grounds that it was something America doesn't do.

339 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:42:00pm

re: #331 Gus 802

I'm still wondering about the constitutionality of the self employment tax, and the "occupational privilege tax." Not too much since I tend to avoid those lines of thinking and deal with the stark reality of life.

Anyway, looks like I walked into a major squabble.

RP4409 sucks.

inheritance tax

340 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:42:28pm

re: #329 iceweasel

In other words, he didn't call all our troops 'unamerican', and neither did any other elected official.

Again with the point. Whoosh.

341 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:42:45pm

The big fat truth of this Socialist jamb down is that it hangs on the lie that it is revenue neutral, this line is held despite the GAO and anyone else that wants to examine it. The article argues that without establishing funding by tax increases, which congress can do, then it simply must not fly to remain constitutional. In a free country government cannot simply make up rules and regs to suit its fancy. I can't opt out of health insurance without penalty? What's next? When government becomes coercive we got real trouble.

Own this Democrats, pass it, tax it, and enjoy the glory therefrom in the next election.

Assholes.

342 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:43:04pm

re: #340 kansas

Again with the point. Whoosh.

Passed him in both lanes with that one.

343 Gus  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:43:15pm

re: #339 albusteve

inheritance tax

Arrow tax. ;)

344 swamprat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:43:42pm

re: #304 Racer X

New Coke was a fantastic success (for Old Coke). At the time Pepsi was kicking Coke's ass. The public outcry to bring back Coke Classic wiped all of that out.

Another metaphor might be in order.

Grandma's tofu milkshakes.
Baked beans on saturday night/choir next day.
The Pinto.
The aluminum engine Vega.
Aluminum wiring in houses.
Ordering the fish plate at an all night diner in the middle of a desert.

345 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:43:55pm

re: #329 iceweasel

The subject was elected officials denigrating the troops-- not if they merely used one specific term. BTW--BHO called some of the acts of the military, while he was on the campaign trail, un-American.

Slightly on topic. fmr. Lt. William Calley finally admitted his role in My Lai. Sorry about that, chief...

346 kynna  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:43:58pm

re: #326 Van Helsing

Yeah, that's true. Kerry just accused them terrorizing women and children in the middle of the night and Murtha just called them cold blooded murderers.

Not 'unamerican'.

Actually, I thought it was President Obama that said they were terrorizing women and children. Maybe it happened with more than one elected official. I was really disappointed with the political savaging of our troops. Disgusted too.

347 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:43:59pm

re: #333 iceweasel

No, they don't.


heh

In a December 9th e-mail signed by “Eli Pariser, Justin Ruben, and the whole MoveOn PAC team,” the Soros front group stated: “In the last year, grassroots contributors like us gave more than $300 million to the Kerry campaign and the DNC, and proved that the Party doesn't need corporate cash to be competitive. Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back.”

348 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:45:16pm

re: #341 The Shadow Do

The big fat truth of this Socialist jamb down is that it hangs on the lie that it is revenue neutral, this line is held despite the GAO and anyone else that wants to examine it. The article argues that without establishing funding by tax increases, which congress can do, then it simply must not fly to remain constitutional. In a free country government cannot simply make up rules and regs to suit its fancy. I can't opt out of health insurance without penalty? What's next? When government becomes coercive we got real trouble.

Own this Democrats, pass it, tax it, and enjoy the glory therefrom in the next election.

Assholes.

no guts, no glory...they know they are wrong

349 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:45:22pm

re: #338 Noam Sayin'

What about Dick Durbin. The entire context of his floor speech was against Git'mo on the grounds that it was something America doesn't do.

And when Durbin got blow back, he made a weepy apology.
He is now afraid to be confronted by his constituents at a Town Hall & Illinois is a Blue state.

350 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:45:24pm

re: #341 The Shadow Do

The big fat truth of this Socialist jamb down is that it hangs on the lie that it is revenue neutral, this line is held despite the GAO and anyone else that wants to examine it..

There's that speed-quality-price triangle again.

351 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:45:53pm

re: #344 swamprat

The aluminum engine Vega.

My father junked the one he had when he was getting 15 miles per quart of oil... (no kidding)

352 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:46:02pm

re: #349 opnion

And when Durbin got blow back, he made a weepy apology.
He is now afraid to be confronted by his constituents at a Town Hall & Illinois is a Blue state.

Two words: "party hack"

353 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:46:09pm

re: #333 iceweasel

No, they don't.

How can you deny that?

354 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:46:26pm

re: #347 wahabicorridor

Oh yeah. If it's from David Horowitz's rag, it must be true.

355 VioletTiger  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:46:35pm

albusteve

a hair can only be split so fine...


Air raiding villages and killing civilians?

356 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:47:17pm

re: #338 Noam Sayin'

What about Dick Durbin. The entire context of his floor speech was against Git'mo on the grounds that it was something America doesn't do.

That was his opinion, and he expressed it. You don't have to approve of everything the government decides to do, as witness everyone here.

357 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:47:31pm

re: #328 calcajun

I wonder how far one would get by "facetiously" mocking the Obama children and their health?
Fortunately, the conservatives on here have too much class to do it, so we'll never know.

358 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:48:05pm

re: #352 calcajun

Two words: "party hack"

He always has been. Durbins only claims to fame are seniority & party obedience.

359 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:48:44pm

re: #354 iceweasel

Oh yeah. If it's from David Horowitz's rag, it must be true.

So if it's from that it's false. Giving you facts is senseless because if you don't like them you can discredit the source.

360 Gus  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:48:56pm

re: #346 kynna

Actually, I thought it was President Obama that said they were terrorizing women and children. Maybe it happened with more than one elected official. I was really disappointed with the political savaging of our troops. Disgusted too.

Senator John Kerry said that:

"And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs, religious customs."

On Face the Nation with Bob Scheifer.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

361 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:48:59pm

re: #353 kansas

How can you deny that?

They try to have influence over the party. They are not the party.

362 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:49:13pm

re: #357 Lincolntf

I wonder how far one would get by "facetiously" mocking the Obama children and their health?
Fortunately, the conservatives on here have too much class to do it, so we'll never know.

You would never hear that here. It would not be tolerated , but people here just would not do it.

363 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:49:29pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think you misread at all. Health-related problems happen in all families, without warning, and not always because of 'lifestyle choices'. And Down's Syndrome is considered a 'pre-existing condition' insurance companies, with all that entails. It may be hard for Trig to find affordable health insurance as an adult.

Depends on the insurance and how you get it.

The plans offered by my employer:
1. Had no PEC clause for people who signed up to take the insurance within the first 30 days of employment;
2. No PEC for family members, if the employee chose a family plan;
3. Special provisions for disabled children of plan members, where they would be insured under the plan as long as the parent remained employed and a member of the plan.

364 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:49:48pm

re: #354 iceweasel

Oh yeah. If it's from David Horowitz's rag, it must be true.

Demand Change at the DNC

Better ?

365 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:49:51pm

re: #355 VioletTiger

albusteve


Air raiding villages and killing civilians?

and the 'enormous problem' has reared his ugly head so to speak

366 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:49:57pm

re: #347 wahabicorridor

Excellent memory!

367 swamprat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:01pm

re: #355 VioletTiger

albusteve


Air raiding villages and killing civilians?

But he didn't call them Un American!
/major sarc

368 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:06pm

re: #361 iceweasel

They try to have influence over the party. They are not the party.

I didn't say they were the party. I said they buy Democrats. Wahabi gave you a source you didn't like the source. I'm go fix a brisket. Bye.

369 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:07pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

same for me

370 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:15pm

re: #359 kansas

So if it's from that it's false. Giving you facts is senseless because if you don't like them you can discredit the source.

Actually, there's another way to read that statement, as mentioned above.

If the heritage foundation announced "we bought and own the GOP and we're going to take it back" I'd be taking that with a bushel of salt too.

371 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:16pm

re: #357 Lincolntf

You have a valid point in that we sometimes forget that others sneak in and take a peek at what we're saying. However, sarc tag or no, they'll take what we say and distort it for their purposes.

Could be that I've spent too much time here, but I know when I see something like the post in question from Cato, or others I know, I usually do not take it seriously.

372 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:24pm

re: #356 SanFranciscoZionist

That was his opinion, and he expressed it. You don't have to approve of everything the government decides to do, as witness everyone here.

But he later recanted.

373 Bloodnok  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:26pm

re: #359 kansas

So if it's from that it's false. Giving you facts is senseless because if you don't like them you can discredit the source.

That's rich. It really is. Check upthread. It is done to her sources regularly. But if it helps you score a few updings for the slam (which I am sure it will) go for it.

374 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:45pm

re: #303 iceweasel

This is insane. People defending this would have lost their minds if antiwar or anti Bush protestors were showing up at speeches armed.

It's about intimidation and suppression of speech. That's it.

They should have brought pies, yes?

375 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:50:55pm

re: #357 Lincolntf

I wonder how far one would get by "facetiously" mocking the Obama children and their health?
Fortunately, the conservatives on here have too much class to do it, so we'll never know.

No one was mocking Trig Palin. Fact is, Cato was responding to a suggestion that needing expensive health care was dependent on 'lifestyle choices'. A toddler with a medical condition he was born with is perhaps the starkest counter to that there is.

And honestly, when the child's mother is willing to suggest that public healthcare might kill her son, it's worth pointing out that he's not exactly safe without it, either.

376 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:51:51pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

Likewise my company insurance, paid for all of my daughter's asthma problems, including numerous hospital stays and expensive drugs. Adopted at age 4 with all conditions "pre-existing."

377 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:52:02pm

Funny, pointing out that the "you're responsible for your own health because of the choices you make" argument has very real limitations and using Trig Palin as an example of those limits seems to touch a nerve.

What part do you disagree with? Trig can't help who he is, and his jeopardy (being excluded from some future insurance policy because of a pre-existing condition) would be neatly resolved by legislation restricting cherry-picking and exclusions for such conditions. Which would seem to put me on his side. And that of special-needs kids with lesser-known, less well-endowed parents. The Palins can probably shelter Trig for life, but what of others?

And yet the "you don't need expensive treatment unless you mess up your own health" crowd draws big applause here. Well, what about those special-needs children?

I'm sorry if sarcasm is lost on 1SG(ret), capitalist piglet, Greengolem64, Lincolntf, Lynn B., MandyManners, Noam Sayin', pre-Boomer Marine brat, Pvt Bin Jammin, Racer X, ROP?LOL, SasquatchOnSteroids, Shug, snowcrash, VioletTiger, etc., but maybe they'll come out with a medication for that, like for restless leg syndrome. Hope your policies cover it!

378 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:52:04pm

re: #374 The Shadow Do

They should have brought pies, yes?

Some brought bags of fecal matter and urine, IIRC. More offensive and potentially more dangerous.

379 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:52:22pm

re: #361 iceweasel

They try to have influence over the party. They are not the party.

the donks are DEEP into MoveOn...bretheran, like ACORN...it's all the same bunch of thugs and Obots

380 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:52:39pm

re: #320 sattv4u2

Yes, that part determines responsibilty of payment and the NEXT part “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.” I find "ominous"

It's in there in the guise of a way to remit you for an overpayment on a co-pay or service, but it's a two way street

What could go IN, could also come OUT

I don't think this even applies to individuals' bank accounts. I think this is all about transactions between health care providers and insurers.

The only possible way to read this as having anything to do with individual's bank accounts is that maybe it means that your doctor's office must be able to offer you an electronic payment option, if you choose to use it. But again, I don't think it even means that.

381 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:52:49pm

re: #373 Bloodnok

That's rich. It really is. Check upthread. It is done to her sources regularly. But if it helps you score a few updings for the slam (which I am sure it will) go for it.

I've had links ignored/dismissed too because the source was from teh left!1!! Never mind if I'd fact checked my link before I used it, btw.

382 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:52:55pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

No, using Trig Palin as an example just gives you a chance to indulge your hate-fantasies regarding his mother. Nothing more.

383 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:53:01pm

re: #372 opnion

But he later recanted.

That's because he's a politician. I didn't say he was a model of moral stature, merely that to argue against Gitmo is not the same as slandering the troops.

384 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:53:39pm

re: #354 iceweasel

Oh yeah. If it's from David Horowitz's rag, it must be true.

Well, if you don't like that source you can google it on your own - it returned 390,000 hits.

385 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:53:47pm

re: #320 sattv4u2

Yes, that part determines responsibilty of payment and the NEXT part “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.” I find "ominous"

It's in there in the guise of a way to remit you for an overpayment on a co-pay or service, but it's a two way street

What could go IN, could also come OUT

Ok. You're reading something into this bill that is simply. not. there. It appears that no amount of explanation is going to satisfy you so I give up. Maybe sec. 163 is destined to become the next sec. 1233. I mean, why establish standards that enable electronic funds transfers when patients can just as easily take their piggy banks to the hospital and break them on the front desk?

/ Death panels! Boo!

386 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:53:49pm

re: #379 albusteve

the donks are DEEP into MoveOn...bretheran, like ACORN...it's all the same bunch of thugs and Obots

The we are in deep with the discovery institute.

Quit thinking the right doesn't have the same sorts of organizations behind it as the left, folks. Because we do.

387 kynna  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:53:58pm

re: #360 Gus 802

Thanks for the link. I have a vague recollection of Obama saying something similar a few years ago. But maybe I'm just getting the two of them confused. John Kerry. Now there's a walk down memory lane. o_O

388 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:54:07pm

re: #361 iceweasel

They try to have influence over the party. They are not the party.

And yet somehow the entire Republican party, and Republicans' opposition to the proposed health care bills, is embodied by a few idiotic extremists who bring guns to political events.

389 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:02pm

re: #385 Lynn B.

Ok. You're reading something into this bill that is simply. not. there. It appears that no amount of explanation is going to satisfy you so I give up. Maybe sec. 163 is destined to become the next sec. 1233. I mean, why establish standards that enable electronic funds transfers when patients can just as easily take their piggy banks to the hospital and break them on the front desk?

And by the way, there's nothing in section 163 that would prohibit a patient from bringing a piggy bank to the hospital and paying the entire bill in nickels.

390 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:03pm

re: #388 Last Mohican

And yet somehow the entire Republican party, and Republicans' opposition to the proposed health care bills, is embodied by a few idiotic extremists who bring guns to political events.

The problem is people on the right excusing this behavior.

391 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:04pm

re: #238 opnion

You're totally out of line with that. I'm amused that you feel the need to inform you don't care about my opinions...while posting about how you had to go check and see if I'd answered you on Wednesday.

You pulled little girls' hair when you liked them when you were 8, right?

:)

392 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:07pm

re: #380 Last Mohican

I don't think this even applies to individuals' bank accounts. I think this is all about transactions between health care providers and insurers.

The only possible way to read this as having anything to do with individual's bank accounts is that maybe it means that your doctor's office must be able to offer you an electronic payment option, if you choose to use it. But again, I don't think it even means that.


determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service

I doubt the legislation would label a PROVIDER (i.e. doctor or hospital) as an INDIVIDUAL

393 Gus  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:25pm

re: #387 kynna

Thanks for the link. I have a vague recollection of Obama saying something similar a few years ago. But maybe I'm just getting the two of them confused. John Kerry. Now there's a walk down memory lane. o_O

YW. Had to search. Ran into one where Obama said something about ICE "terrorizing" neighborhoods with their raids.

394 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:29pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

re: #376 jaunte

That's not going to help with demonizing the insurance companies at all!
I hear some of them even expect to make a PROFIT!
The scum.

/in case someone missed it

395 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:40pm

re: #382 Lincolntf

No, using Trig Palin as an example just gives you a chance to indulge your hate-fantasies regarding his mother. Nothing more.

No, using Trig Palin as an example shows the absurdity of his mother's position on the health care debate and the imbecility of her supporters.

396 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:54pm

re: #383 SanFranciscoZionist

That's because he's a politician. I didn't say he was a model of moral stature, merely that to argue against Gitmo is not the same as slandering the troops.

I take your point. He was talking about interrogatiobn techniques, but he really had no proof. He did not cite one reliable source.

397 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:55:57pm

re: #358 opnion

Did you see the footage of Rep. Massa (D) NY stating bluntly that he'd vote against the interests of his constituents and for the Health Care Bill? And he said it in a town hall. This is the real Dem party, folks.

398 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:56:46pm

re: #387 kynna

Thanks for the link. I have a vague recollection of Obama saying something similar a few years ago. But maybe I'm just getting the two of them confused. John Kerry. Now there's a walk down memory lane. o_O

Who hasn't been guilty of misremembering who said something?

/see my General Betray Us comment above for a perfect example

399 VioletTiger  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:56:47pm

re: #388 Last Mohican

And yet somehow the entire Republican party, and Republicans' opposition to the proposed health care bills, is embodied by a few idiotic extremists who bring guns to political events.


I think you hit the nail on the head.
Both the left and right have their share of kooks and fringe elements.
The left more easily get away with tolerating their kooks and encorporating them in some way.
The right is tarred and feathered as soon as some goons show up a a rally.

400 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:57:02pm

re: #361 iceweasel

They try to have influence over the party. They are not the party.

Why do you consistently defend "the party" of which you are not a member? When was the last time you voted for a Republican who was not a neighbor/uncle or who was running for an office beyond school board or dog catcher? It really is OK to be a Democrat, folks will still respect you in the morning...

401 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:57:04pm

re: #386 Sharmuta

The we are in deep with the discovery institute.

Quit thinking the right doesn't have the same sorts of organizations behind it as the left, folks. Because we do.

I don't, and why would you even suggest I do?...the topic was not the DI...I am not a 'we'

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:57:05pm

re: #396 opnion

I take your point. He was talking about interrogatiobn techniques, but he really had no proof. He did not cite one reliable source.

So, a lousy speech, and if he couldn't back it up, I can see why he apologized.

403 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:57:17pm

re: #385 Lynn B.

Death panels! Boo!

we prefer Cash For Caskets,
thankyouverymuch

404 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:57:23pm

yadayadablahblahblahyadayadablabblabblab.

Who wants cake ?

405 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:57:34pm
Does the US Constitution give the federal government the authority to require citizens to buy nationalized health insurance?

Short answer: Probably, yes.
Although the actual debate of Constitutional law and legal precedents is over my head I've seen this debate played out enough times before to know how it goes. Despite claims to the contrary they do research this stuff when they're putting together legislation. Even smart people on the right claimed TARP and the stimulus bill were illegal even though there was never even a serious attempt to take it to court.
Even things like the Patriot Act and FISA courts faced challenges. Occasionally they have to reword something or go through a different agency to make it work but these programs are still in effect.
The debate might be interesting but in the end the courts will decide. Everybody else is just bloviating.

406 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:58:06pm

re: #392 sattv4u2

determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service

I doubt the legislation would label a PROVIDER (i.e. doctor or hospital) as an INDIVIDUAL

Right. At the point of service, the doctor or hospital can look up how much the individual's co-pay is. That's what this says.

407 Greengolem64  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:58:27pm

re: #180 Sharmuta

And I've never gone to a hospital where I saw anyone turned away for treatment. I believe most doctors and hospitals feel it's their moral obligation to treat the sick and injured.

Something about the Hypocratic oath maybe?

One would hope anyway...

GG

408 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:58:29pm

re: #394 Van Helsing

There will always be tradeoffs, but I think that the shift in tradeoffs with the government plan will assure employment for more (voting) union members.
The cost for that, and who will pay it, remains unknown

409 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:58:42pm

re: #391 iceweasel

You're totally out of line with that. I'm amused that you feel the need to inform you don't care about my opinions...while posting about how you had to go check and see if I'd answered you on Wednesday.

You pulled little girls' hair when you liked them when you were 8, right?

:)


Did you say something?

410 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:58:53pm

re: #400 The Shadow Do

When was the last time you voted for a Republican who was not a neighbor/uncle or who was running for an office beyond school board or dog catcher?

Since when do Americans have to reveal who they voted for?

411 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:59:14pm

re: #397 calcajun

Did you see the footage of Rep. Massa (D) NY stating bluntly that he'd vote against the interests of his constituents and for the Health Care Bill? And he said it in a town hall. This is the real Dem party, folks.

No he said he'd vote AGAINST it, believe it or not. He thinks it doesn't go far enough

412 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:59:28pm

re: #397 calcajun

Did you see the footage of Rep. Massa (D) NY stating bluntly that he'd vote against the interests of his constituents and for the Health Care Bill? And he said it in a town hall. This is the real Dem party, folks.

He'll vote against the perceived, deceived and disbelieved interests of his constituents when his conscience tells him they're misguided. It's called true representative government. You want government by referendum, move to California. That's worked out well.

413 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:59:45pm

re: #406 Last Mohican

Right. At the point of service, the doctor or hospital can look up how much the individual's co-pay is. That's what this says.

and you keep (conveneintly) leaving out the NEXT sentence

“enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

414 BignJames  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:59:53pm

re: #406 Last Mohican

Right. At the point of service, the doctor or hospital can look up how much the individual's co-pay is. That's what this says.

They do that now.

415 kynna  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:00:27pm

re: #382 Lincolntf

No, using Trig Palin as an example just gives you a chance to indulge your hate-fantasies regarding his mother. Nothing more.

I agree. A history of disturbing posts regarding the mother of the example tends to make people leery of the argument.

Thing is -- I agree with Cato on this particular subject. Personal choices do cause expensive medical needs, but most expensive health care needs seem to be from naturally occurring ailments or conditions. That doesn't mean we need socialized healthcare. It just means, IMO, that we need to stay away from personal judgment in our arguments against it. Or for it. A person not eating enough fruits and vegetables is not a reason for demanding government intervention either.

416 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:00:28pm

re: #397 calcajun

Did you see the footage of Rep. Massa (D) NY stating bluntly that he'd vote against the interests of his constituents and for the Health Care Bill? And he said it in a town hall. This is the real Dem party, folks.

I did & I do hope that the Republicans use that nationally in the 2010 campaign.

417 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:00:37pm

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

Come on, someone, talk to me about public education...

It seems to be teaching students to write, 'tow the line', for one thing.

418 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:00:59pm

re: #410 iceweasel

Since when do Americans have to reveal who they voted for?

LOL!

419 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:01:21pm

re: #407 Greengolem64

Something about the Hypocratic oath maybe?

One would hope anyway...

GG

Absolutely. Like I said- doctors by and large, imo, feel it's a moral obligation.

420 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:01:26pm

re: #394 Van Helsing

re: #376 jaunte

That's not going to help with demonizing the insurance companies at all!
I hear some of them even expect to make a PROFIT!
The scum.

/in case someone missed it

No one is interested in hearing that.

421 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:01:26pm

re: #391 iceweasel

You're totally out of line with that. I'm amused that you feel the need to inform you don't care about my opinions...while posting about how you had to go check and see if I'd answered you on Wednesday.

You pulled little girls' hair when you liked them when you were 8, right?

:)


And you were how old when you got called a name and thought it was 'punching back" by calling one back??

422 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:01:56pm

re: #403 sattv4u2

Death panels! Boo!

we prefer Cash For Caskets,
thankyouverymuch

No need for caskets any more. We all be buried in the aluminum foil cars they'll make us drive... You know, the ones we'll die in if we hit a squirrel at speed...

423 snowcrash  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:02:37pm

Aren't permanently disabled people covered by SSI and eligible for medicaid?

424 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:02:40pm

re: #394 Van Helsing

re: #376 jaunte

That's not going to help with demonizing the insurance companies at all!
I hear some of them even expect to make a PROFIT!
The scum.

/in case someone missed it

re: #420 reine.de.tout

No one is interested in hearing that.

What I meant was, no one seems interested in hearing that in many cases, one can be insured with no PEC exclusions, and with special provisions for disabled children needing to remain insured under a parent's plan past age 18.

425 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:02:47pm

re: #301 Last Mohican

Also part of section is parts

: ‘(D)...which may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card; {and} ‘(E) enable, where feasible, near real-time adjudication of claims;"

Identification cards...and essentially point-of-payment can be made by whomever has access to the system.

One moment you may have 1k in your account the next moment, not.

Vunderbar.

If this damned thing passes, this is one person who expects a lot of trouble to flair overnight.

People will not put-up with type of intrusion.

426 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:02:50pm

re: #418 The Shadow Do

LOL!

Only if Obama would have got Union Card check. No more secret ballot to vote a union up ior down. BHO so believes in secret ballots.

427 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:03:00pm

re: #421 sattv4u2

And you were how old when you got called a name and thought it was 'punching back" by calling one back??

I see you're still not at the age where you recognise double standards.

428 Gus  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:03:04pm

re: #422 christheprofessor

No need for caskets any more. We all be buried in the aluminum foil cars they'll make us drive... You know, the ones we'll die in if we hit a squirrel at speed...

Things will get very busy over at Orgish Liveleak.

//

429 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:03:06pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder


I was just going to be lurking, but that comment was worth logging in just to downding.

430 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:03:30pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Short answer: Probably, yes.
Although the actual debate of Constitutional law and legal precedents is over my head I've seen this debate played out enough times before to know how it goes. Despite claims to the contrary they do research this stuff when they're putting together legislation. Even smart people on the right claimed TARP and the stimulus bill were illegal even though there was never even a serious attempt to take it to court.
Even things like the Patriot Act and FISA courts faced challenges. Occasionally they have to reword something or go through a different agency to make it work but these programs are still in effect.
The debate might be interesting but in the end the courts will decide. Everybody else is just bloviating.

That interpretation, though no doubt correct, reveals just how thin the veil is between freedom and authoritarianism. Disturbing really.
/bloviator

431 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:04:02pm

re: #427 iceweasel

I see you're still not at the age where you recognise double standards.

oh my,,, oh my my my!

432 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:04:17pm

Red Sox v. Yankees about to start on Fox. Sox need a win or two in this series to keep their heads above water in the wild card race.

433 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:04:30pm

re: #423 snowcrash

Aren't permanently disabled people covered by SSI and eligible for medicaid?

I believe so, yes.

434 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:04:57pm

re: #424 reine.de.tout

What I meant was, no one seems interested in hearing that in many cases, one can be insured with no PEC exclusions, and with special provisions for disabled children needing to remain insured under a parent's plan past age 18.

I knew that.
And I should have just used a simple /sarc

It all goes back to my thought on why they are trying the wholesale approach to reform instead of just addressing the 'crisis' of the uninsured.

435 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:05:03pm
436 Gus  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:05:15pm

re: #430 The Shadow Do

That interpretation, though no doubt correct, reveals just how thin the veil is between freedom and authoritarianism. Disturbing really.
/bloviator

That got me wondering for a second. What about the constitutionality of car insurance? Of course that's imposed by the state, etc.

437 VioletTiger  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:05:29pm

re: #423 snowcrash

Aren't permanently disabled people covered by SSI and eligible for medicaid?

Yes, they are.
And many private insurance companies do as well. In fact, they cannot deny care for a pre-exhisting condition for a child.

438 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:05:37pm

re: #413 sattv4u2

and you keep (conveneintly) leaving out the NEXT sentence

“enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

I'm not leaving anything out. I read this as asking health care providers and insurers to allow for electronic funds transfers between each other. It's possible that it means that they're also supposed to allow individuals to pay their premiums, co-pays, and deductibles electronically, if they want to.

Again, nothing ominous. My corner gas station allows me to pay for my gas with a credit card if I feel like it, too.

439 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:05:57pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Does the US Constitution give the federal government the authority to require citizens to buy nationalized health insurance?

Short answer: Probably, yes.

The Court can find the authority if it wants to. See #21 above.

440 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:06:13pm

re: #432 Lincolntf

Red Sox v. Yankees about to start on Fox. Sox need a win or two in this series to keep their heads above water in the wild card race.

Last nite was a dabacle for Sox fans. Fortunately for the domestic temperature at our house, hubby is a Yankees fan.

441 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:06:23pm

re: #423 snowcrash

Aren't permanently disabled people covered by SSI and eligible for medicaid?

I think it differs...I think not all of them are eligible for SSI (depending on work history). Someone here will have more info, I'm sure.

442 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:06:25pm

re: #435 Lincolntf

If you're gong to name call then expect it back, creationist.

443 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:06:34pm

re: #412 Cato the Elder

It got rid of the insane property tax system that was killing the middle class.

444 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:06:57pm

re: #432 Lincolntf

Red Sox v. Yankees about to start on Fox. Sox need a win or two in this series to keep their heads above water in the wild card race.

The Yankees are on fire. The White Sox took three out of four from them a few weeks ago in Chicago. Since then the Yankees are killing.
White Sox have an East Cost swing coming up at New York & Boston.
They better bring their A game or Detroit takes the Central.

445 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:07:00pm

re: #422 christheprofessor

No need for caskets any more. We all be buried in the aluminum foil cars they'll make us drive... You know, the ones we'll die in if we hit a squirrel at speed...

Youtube Video

Oh come on...you wouldn't feel safe in this?
/

446 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:07:25pm

re: #423 snowcrash

Aren't permanently disabled people covered by SSI and eligible for medicaid?

I have a friend who is partially disable because his leg was crushed (while in the Navy) by one of those tractors they move aircraft around with on an aircraft carrier. He just got the military to up his disability slightly. In response, SSI correspondingly reduced his SSI disability by the same amount...

447 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:07:38pm

re: #429 Oh no...Sand People!

I was just going to be lurking, but that comment was worth logging in just to downding.

I approve. A ding-down from someone who can't grasp the point is a valuable bit of information about that someone.

448 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:07:46pm

re: #434 Van Helsing

I knew that.
And I should have just used a simple /sarc

It all goes back to my thought on why they are trying the wholesale approach to reform instead of just addressing the 'crisis' of the uninsured.

Addressing the actual problem of uninsured folks (rather than turning the system upside-down for all of us), would be logical and make sense, one would think.

449 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:07:49pm

re: #436 Gus 802

That got me wondering for a second. What about the constitutionality of car insurance? Of course that's imposed by the state, etc.

Well even the state cannot violate your constitutional rights. Auto insurance is only required if you want to drive a car on the public roads.

450 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:07:51pm

re: #438 Last Mohican

I'm not leaving anything out. I read this as asking health care providers and insurers to allow for electronic funds transfers between each other. It's possible that it means that they're also supposed to allow individuals to pay their premiums, co-pays, and deductibles electronically, if they want to.

Again, nothing ominous. My corner gas station allows me to pay for my gas with a credit card if I feel like it, too.

But it does NOT allow then access to it without your express permission

Once your machine-readable health plan beneficiary card" is given, what info do you think will be on it?
Name Rank and Serial #?

hardly!

451 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:07:54pm

re: #430 The Shadow Do

Disturbing really.


Not really. The system works. If this is unconstitutional the courts will throw it out. Chances are that the Dems have done their homework and are close enough that they can tweak the plan to get it to comply with whatever objections come up.
The problem is the rhetoric that the administration is intentionally violating the Constitution without repercussions. That feeds the libertarian anti-government paranoia that's so fashionable these days.

452 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:08:06pm

re: #436 Gus 802

That got me wondering for a second. What about the constitutionality of car insurance? Of course that's imposed by the state, etc.

Driving is a licensed 'privilege', not a 'right' or 'entitlement'. To exercise the privilege the state can establish certain requirements.

453 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:08:14pm

re: #430 The Shadow Do

That interpretation, though no doubt correct, reveals just how thin the veil is between freedom and authoritarianism. Disturbing really.
/bloviator

yup, a couple of pen strokes can change everything...it's very fragile

454 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:08:46pm

re: #435 Lincolntf

Ooh, ooh, can we have more "head trauma" jokes?
Silly little twit.

Is this the part where you tell me it's heinous for me to make a joke about amnesia and the Bush years, but it's perfectly ok for you to call me names?

Yeah, I've seen that show. I'll be ignoring the rerun.

Unlike you, I'm not going to fuck up the thread with the kind of crap that drives away readers. You'll have to conduct your Two Minute Hate without me.

455 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:09:26pm

re: #425 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Also part of section is parts

Identification cards...and essentially point-of-payment can be made by whomever has access to the system.

One moment you may have 1k in your account the next moment, not.

Vunderbar.

If this damned thing passes, this is one person who expects a lot of trouble to flair overnight.

People will not put-up with type of intrusion.

The "identification card" is like the insurance card that I already have, and you may have as well. The hospital will be able to scan it, and see that I have a $30 co-pay for clinic visits, and a $300 deductible for hospitalizations.

There's nothing here that allows anyone to zap a thousand dollars out of anyone's bank account without asking first.

456 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:09:30pm

re: #447 Cato the Elder

I approve. A ding-down from someone who can't grasp the point is a valuable bit of information about that someone.

Has it ever occured to you that you have something in common with Ann Coulter? You both may have valid points to make, but the ugliness employed renders you completely ineffective.

457 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:09:39pm

re: #447 Cato the Elder

With your vitriolic angst / closet crush on Palin, even with a sarc tag it's still worth down dinging... but you didn't even put a sarc tag on it.

458 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:10:04pm

re: #445 Oh no...Sand People!

Youtube Video

Oh come on...you wouldn't feel safe in this?
/

Ouch! And that care was barely moving! ;)

459 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:10:20pm

re: #457 Oh no...Sand People!

With your vitriolic angst / closet crush on Palin, even with a sarc tag it's still worth down dinging... but you didn't even put a sarc tag on it.

I. Don't. Do. Sarc. Tags.

Deal with it.

460 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:10:22pm

re: #439 nonic

The Court can find the authority if it wants to. See #21 above.

Yes, if there are serious questions then the court definitely has the authority. However, I'd be surprised if the challenges even make it to the supreme court.

461 VioletTiger  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:10:24pm

re: #425 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Also part of section is parts


Identification cards...and essentially point-of-payment can be made by whomever has access to the system.

One moment you may have 1k in your account the next moment, not.

Vunderbar.

If this damned thing passes, this is one person who expects a lot of trouble to flair overnight.

People will not put-up with type of intrusion.

I don't like this part of the bill at all.
Too much risk and no real reward.
Also, don't some big Obama supporters have their hands in systems for medical records? Like GE and IBM.

462 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:10:46pm

re: #451 Killgore Trout

If this is unconstitutional the courts will throw it out.

I wished I had your confidence KT - but after Kelo, I don't.

463 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:10:48pm

re: #459 Cato the Elder

I. Don't. Do. Sarc. Tags.

Deal with it.

Ok Ludwig.

464 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:10:57pm

re: #439 nonic

The Court can find the authority if it wants to. See #21 above.

Yes it can. Whether or not you support Roe, it is widely believed that there is nothing in the 4th Amendment to support the court decision.
The Supreme Court can make their decision first & then work backward to justify it bootstraping lots of off point stuff.

465 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:11:42pm

re: #428 Gus 802

Heh.

466 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:12:00pm

re: #457 Oh no...Sand People!

With your vitriolic angst / closet crush on Palin, even with a sarc tag it's still worth down dinging... but you didn't even put a sarc tag on it.

I never knew angst could be vitriolic. Thanks for the new category. I collect 'em.

467 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:12:07pm

re: #442 Sharmuta

re: #454 iceweasel

Problem is ,, Lincoln didn't call Ice a name from whence this started

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I must be kidding?
It's your "leaders" who have resorted to infantile language and cries of "un-American" to squelch all discussion of this monstrosity. Pathetic group of chumps doesn't even know how to govern when they control ALL the power.

468 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:12:25pm

re: #436 Gus 802

That got me wondering for a second. What about the constitutionality of car insurance? Of course that's imposed by the state, etc.

From the article:

This leaves mandate supporters with few palatable options. Congress could attempt to condition some federal benefit on the acquisition of insurance. States, for example, usually condition issuance of a car registration on proof of automobile insurance, or on a sizable payment into an uninsured motorist fund. Even this, however, cannot achieve universal health coverage. No federal program or entitlement applies to the entire population, and it is difficult to conceive of a "benefit" that some part of the population would not choose to eschew.


For what it's worth.

469 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:12:26pm

re: #433 wahabicorridor

re: #423 snowcrash

Aren't permanently disabled people covered by SSI and eligible for medicaid?

I believe so, yes.

Even people born disabled? Because I'm pretty sure you can't get state disability or Medicare for disability unless you've worked some number of quarters in the last 10 years.

470 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:12:34pm

The car insurance thing isn't a very good comparison. How about Social Security? The government requires you to save money for your retirement and younger people subsidize older people. I don't think there have been any serious challenges to social security in recent history.

471 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:12:47pm

re: #450 sattv4u2

But it does NOT allow then access to it without your express permission

Once your machine-readable health plan beneficiary card" is given, what info do you think will be on it?
Name Rank and Serial #?

hardly!

I literally have a machine-readable health plan beneficiary card right now. It has my clinic co-pay amount printed right on it. And hospitals can type in my insurance account number, and see what my deductible amount for hospitalizations would be. It has everything that Section 163 mandates. I really haven't found that to be a problem.

472 BignJames  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:13:00pm

re: #462 wahabicorridor

I wished I had your confidence KT - but after Kelo, I don't.


Not even with penumbras and emanations?

473 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:13:29pm
474 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:13:36pm

re: #454 iceweasel

Hey, at least Lincolntf has slept off the oxycontin jag he was on last night...

475 Gus  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:13:37pm

Whew, back later.

476 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:13:58pm

re: #446 christheprofessor

I have a friend who is partially disable because his leg was crushed (while in the Navy) by one of those tractors they move aircraft around with on an aircraft carrier. He just got the military to up his disability slightly. In response, SSI correspondingly reduced his SSI disability by the same amount...

The benevolence of government on display.

477 Lincolntf  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:14:12pm

re: #442 Sharmuta

Whatever you say, creationist.

478 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:14:29pm

re: #464 opnion

Yes it can. Whether or not you support Roe, it is widely believed that there is nothing in the 4th Amendment to support the court decision.
The Supreme Court can make their decision first & then work backward to justify it bootstraping lots of off point stuff.

Penumbras. I've always liked that justification.

From Merriam-Webster
* Main Entry: pen·um·bra
* Pronunciation: pə-ˈnəm-brə
* Function: noun
* Inflected Form(s): plural pen·um·brae -(ˌ)brē, -ˌbrī or pen·um·bras
* Etymology: New Latin, from Latin paene almost + umbra shadow — more at umbrage
* Date: 1666

1 a : a space of partial illumination (as in an eclipse) between the perfect shadow on all sides and the full light b : a shaded region surrounding the dark central portion of a sunspot
2 : a surrounding or adjoining region in which something exists in a lesser degree : fringe
3 : a body of rights held to be guaranteed by implication in a civil constitution
4 : something that covers, surrounds, or obscures : shroud

479 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:14:45pm

re: #469 nonic

Even people born disabled?

I believe so, yes (I'm basing this on conversations with a firend I used to know who was a social worker for the state).

480 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:15:32pm

re: #436 Gus 802

That got me wondering for a second. What about the constitutionality of car insurance? Of course that's imposed by the state, etc.

That is a good question and presents a good analogy. The rationale is best described in the title of most of the laws covering auto insurance, "financial responsibility". Since there are many people out there on the road, it is in the interest of the state to make sure they carry some minimal liability insurance (your auto lender wants you to carry collision) so as to allocate the risk of injury among the thousands of drivers on the road and not only on the few who carry insurance, or uninsured motorist insurance.

California has the penalty for those who do not carry liability insurance as not being able to recover their "special" damages resulting from any accident--i.e.; their "pain and suffering. They can get their property damages and other economic damages, but they do not get the "big" pay out.

481 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:15:52pm

re: #472 BignJames

Not even with penumbras and emanations?

*WHACK*

482 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:16:46pm

re: #476 The Shadow Do

The benevolence of government on display.

the feds are worse than the Mob in that regard...no honor at all...I know this

483 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:16:47pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

The car insurance thing isn't a very good comparison. How about Social Security? The government requires you to save money for your retirement and younger people subsidize older people. I don't think there have been any serious challenges to social security in recent history.

Bush gave it a 'going through the motions only' try. Don't think his 'spendathon' heart was in it though.

484 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:16:48pm

re: #460 Killgore Trout

Agreed.

485 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:16:51pm

re: #471 Last Mohican

I literally have a machine-readable health plan beneficiary card right now. It has my clinic co-pay amount printed right on it. And hospitals can type in my insurance account number, and see what my deductible amount for hospitalizations would be. It has everything that Section 163 mandates. I really haven't found that to be a problem.

But your card right now does not have your bank account information encoded,does it?

I read the NRO article at the link, and it suggest that your card would have your bank account information on it, giving providers, etc., access. I read the provision they were talking about and I cant see that it means that, but I'm not all that good at interpreting legal jargon.

486 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:17:00pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

The car insurance thing isn't a very good comparison. How about Social Security? The government requires you to save money for your retirement and younger people subsidize older people. I don't think there have been any serious challenges to social security in recent history.

It's a tax. It's legal.

487 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:17:01pm

re: #468 The Shadow Do

For what it's worth.

Tax penalties (fines) for non-insurance have been proposed.
How would that work the 45% of wage earners that don't have a federal income tax obligation now?
And still square with "no tax increases for 95% of you"?
Hmmm...

488 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:17:10pm
489 Bloodnok  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:17:22pm

re: #477 Lincolntf

Took you that long to come up with that zinger? Go back to hiding behind all the other Iceweasel haters and putting the boot in during a pigpile.

490 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:18:04pm

re: #478 Van Helsing

Penumbras. I've always liked that justification.

From Merriam-Webster
* Main Entry: pen·um·bra
* Pronunciation: pə-ˈnəm-brə
* Function: noun
* Inflected Form(s): plural pen·um·brae -(ˌ)brē, -ˌbrī or pen·um·bras
* Etymology: New Latin, from Latin paene almost + umbra shadow — more at umbrage
* Date: 1666

1 a : a space of partial illumination (as in an eclipse) between the perfect shadow on all sides and the full light b : a shaded region surrounding the dark central portion of a sunspot
That my friend is a great post. I really get nervous when I hear a jurist refer to the Constitution as a living document rather than seeking original intent.
The Founding Fathers were wise & did not want judges legislating which is wht the amendment process exists.
2 : a surrounding or adjoining region in which something exists in a lesser degree : fringe
3 : a body of rights held to be guaranteed by implication in a civil constitution
4 : something that covers, surrounds, or obscures : shroud

491 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:18:14pm

re: #461 VioletTiger

I don't like this part of the bill at all.
Too much risk and no real reward.
Also, don't some big Obama supporters have their hands in systems for medical records? Like GE and IBM.

GE owns this planet. They have their fingers in everything and put Haliburton to shame. There is nothing more futile in the world than the "Boycott GE" movement. On the upside- they do a great job with innovations in technology, including the medical field.

492 swamprat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:18:19pm

I think that lgf should be used for more than rehashing old animosities.

493 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:19:02pm

re: #489 Bloodnok

Took you that long to come up with that zinger? Go back to hiding behind all the other Iceweasel haters and putting the boot in during a pigpile.

Actually, ,you're the one that's late to the party. This started between Ice and Linc back around # 214

But thanks for playing!

494 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:19:12pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

The car insurance thing isn't a very good comparison. How about Social Security? The government requires you to save money for your retirement and younger people subsidize older people. I don't think there have been any serious challenges to social security in recent history.

I believer there was a challenge (though not to its constitutionality) a while back regarding a citizen suing to get his money back. AIR, SCOTUS ruled that the government has no obligation to pay back what one paid in. Ergo, it's just another tax...

495 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:19:27pm

re: #466 Cato the Elder

angst...vitriolic

Hmm.

Lethargic alacrity?

Excited ennui?

Firm vacillation?

Terse pontification?

496 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:19:34pm

Congress could pass a health tax tomorrow. End of discussion. The Dems have the vote, so I say go ahead Congress "make my day"

497 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:19:36pm

re: #464 opnion

Yes it can. Whether or not you support Roe, it is widely believed that there is nothing in the 4th Amendment to support the court decision.
The Supreme Court can make their decision first & then work backward to justify it bootstraping lots of off point stuff.

Yep.

498 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:19:58pm

re: #492 swamprat

I think that lgf should be used for more than rehashing old animosities.

Then how about new ones!
GAZE

/just kidding!! (ducks under desk...)

499 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:20:12pm

re: #478 Van Helsing

Pick a penumbra from one to ten..

500 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:20:37pm

re: #490 opnion

Thanks. I'm trying to find my old (written on paper!) dictionary and see what the definition there is.

501 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:20:53pm

re: #498 Oh no...Sand People!

Then how about new ones!
GAZE

/just kidding!! (ducks under desk...)

I have chickens under mine!

502 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:20:59pm

re: #476 The Shadow Do

The benevolence of government on display.

Exactly. And we are supposed to trust them with our health care?

503 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:21:20pm

re: #499 calcajun

Pick a penumbra from one to ten..

I detect the emanations of an impending pun-a-thon...

504 Bloodnok  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:21:32pm

re: #493 sattv4u2

Actually, ,you're the one that's late to the party. This started between Ice and Linc back around # 214

But thanks for playing!

I was here. My comment stands.

505 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:21:32pm

If the President, who should represent us all & comport himself with dignity, says "wee wee"

There you, there I, there all of us wet our pants.

506 BignJames  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:21:33pm

re: #485 reine.de.tout


I'm not all that good at interpreting legal jargon.

I'll sum it up for you...you can't own anything in this country...anything...you can only rent it...like beer.

507 MikeySDCA  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:22:02pm

re: #497 nonic

As Mr. Chief Justice Holmes said, "A Supreme Court Justice is a law student who grades his own examination papers."

508 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:22:10pm

re: #494 christheprofessor

I have no expectation that I'm ever going to see any of the money I paid in to social security. That money's gone.

509 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:22:28pm

re: #504 Bloodnok

I was here. My comment stands.

And a fine comment it was. Me, I'd frame it!

510 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:22:36pm

re: #478 Van Helsing

Sorry, my eply did not show the first time. Great post.
I get nervous when I hear a jurist refer to the Constitution as a living document.
That tells me that original intent will be ignored.The Founding Fathers were wise & feared legislating courts which is why the amendment process is in place.

511 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:22:41pm

re: #489 Bloodnok

re: #473 Lincolntf

Don't bother. I should've never stopped gazing the twit.
The last thing I want is another thread about Iceweasel's feelings.

Nok, he wants a thread about his feelings, and the inky squid-cloud of butthurt covering this thread about everyone else's wounded feelings. "IceWeasel made a joke about amnesia! Heavens!"

Maybe the health care plan will cover smelling salts.

(Btw, 'pigpile' is awesome. I'm going to plagiarise that.) ;)

512 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:22:49pm

re: #496 The Shadow Do

Congress could pass a health tax tomorrow. End of discussion. The Dems have the vote, so I say go ahead Congress "make my day"

I love how the dems are now playing it all coy..."Well, uh, the Republicans aren't playing nice...uh...well...uh...hmm..."

They own the government now. There are no balances in place. They are hesitating for even they know this political monstrosity is complete shite.

513 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:24:11pm

re: #508 Killgore Trout

I have no expectation that I'm ever going to see any of the money I paid in to social security. That money's gone.

Yep. Unwise to rely on SS. I fear many do, though.
Damn shame.

514 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #508 Killgore Trout

I have no expectation that I'm ever going to see any of the money I paid in to social security. That money's gone.

Don't you thing that the government will at the very least do a means test?

515 wahabicorridor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:24:38pm

Ok, we've got storms moving thru so I'm shutting down.

516 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:25:11pm

re: #495 calcajun

Hmm.

Lethargic alacrity?

Excited ennui?

Firm vacillation?

Terse pontification?

Palestinian government?

517 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:25:12pm

OT: The buttons and flippy triangles aren't working for me today. Did I break the internets?

518 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:25:16pm

re: #508 Killgore Trout

Wasn't it originally designed as a sort of Ponzi scheme? I thought the average lifespan was short of 65 when SSI was first instituted.

519 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:25:39pm

re: #515 wahabicorridor

Ok, we've got storms moving thru so I'm shutting down.

HA ! I knew you were a Cyborg.

/

520 MikeySDCA  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:25:44pm

re: #516 christheprofessor

Journalistic ethics?

521 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:26:24pm

re: #520 MikeySDCA

Journalistic ethics?

We're back to politifact?

;-)

522 Tats66  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:26:34pm

I certainly think showing up with firearms was stupid and minimizes the true aspect of the arguments some of us have, but I always get entertained by these "well our radicals were less wackjob than your radicals are" Please!

Lets not discount the 'gun-less" attempts at intimidation like piece of shit wack jobs going to a serviceman's funeral and spouting their vile crap, or the same type code pinko assholes that try and intimidate those at a recruiting station...

the ROP has no monopoly on stating dissenters to their views are "unamerican"...so lets cut the bullshit.

The majority of us here are what we consider patriotic, vets, public servants, most of us have walked the walk and put our asses on the line for our views and beliefs, were middle ground sensible people, not radicals of any ilk. Im kinda trired of the same old trolls tryin to insinuate these fringe elements represent what most of us believe.

Please feel free to return to your PDS, BDS, and blind devotion yo your messiah, whose policies, you will soon discover, will screw your pooches as much as they do mine.

/rant over. whats for dinner?

523 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:26:37pm

re: #520 MikeySDCA

Government efficiency

524 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:26:45pm

re: #499 calcajun

Pick a penumbra from one to ten..

Now that's the straw that stroked the camel's sack!

/channeling Kelly Bundy

525 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:27:46pm

re: #518 jaunte

Wasn't it originally designed as a sort of Ponzi scheme? I thought the average lifespan was short of 65 when SSI was first instituted.

Yup, when FDR put it in that was true. One of the biggest lies is the Social Security Trust Fund.
The Democrats have been raiding it for years. I would venture that they would do the same with Obama Care funds.

526 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:27:50pm

re: #521 pink freud

We're back to politifact?

;-)

Politifact is nonpartisan and regularly criticises Obama.

I recommend using sourcecheck and not Republican shill sites like MRC, btw.

527 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:28:01pm

it never ceases to amaze me how people can so easily concede their private lives to the govt...it's like science fiction to me, submission is so...weak

528 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:28:05pm

re: #508 Killgore Trout

I have no expectation that I'm ever going to see any of the money I paid in to social security. That money's gone.

Neither do I. In fact, I just opened up my SSI letter today (you know, the yearly update Clinton put in telling us how much/little I'll get paid when I retire) and had to laugh out loud...

529 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:28:34pm

Welcome to the Paulified Republican party: Pic from today's Tea party protest (via Instapundit)

530 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:28:54pm

re: #502 christheprofessor

Exactly. And we are supposed to trust them with our health care?

Me: Doc, I have hemorrhoids
Doc: No Shadow, you are the hemorrhoid, let's talk end of life issues my friend...

531 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:29:07pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Not found...

532 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:29:08pm

re: #526 iceweasel

Politifact is nonpartisan and regularly criticises Obama.

I recommend using sourcecheck and not Republican shill sites like MRC, btw.

Your recommendations are worthless.

533 MikeySDCA  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:29:23pm

re: #523 Van Helsing

Government efficiency

When I worked for IRS in the 70s and early 80s, it was very efficient indeed. So much so that the richies got scared and got Congress in the late 80s to castrate it. Now everybody bitches about the cheats getting away with murder.

534 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:29:24pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Welcome to the Paulified Republican party: Pic from today's Tea party protest (via Instapundit)

OUCHIES ,,, you gave me a Googlr Error

Google
Error

Not Found
The requested URL /_gcA0ZuKGkI8/SpA_CR8AztI/AAADVI/LENqkUEd4ZA/s1600-h/protest+sign8.JPG was not found on this server

535 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:29:58pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Welcome to the Paulified Republican party: Pic from today's Tea party protest (via Instapundit)

Not found, Big Guy.

536 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:30:04pm

re: #526 iceweasel

Politifact is nonpartisan and regularly criticises Obama.

I recommend using sourcecheck and not Republican shill sites like MRC, btw.

BTW, I should add-- that doesn't mean politifact never gets anything wrong. But they're so far just about the best on factchecking the health care info.

537 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:30:10pm

re: #533 MikeySDCA

When I worked for IRS in the 70s and early 80s, it was very efficient indeed. So much so that the richies got scared and got Congress in the late 80s to castrate it. Now everybody bitches about the cheats getting away with murder.

Naww, they get cabinet seats.

538 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:30:10pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Welcome to the Paulified Republican party: Pic from today's Tea party protest (via Instapundit)

another shiny object...ho hum

539 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:30:12pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Welcome to the Paulified Republican party: Pic from today's Tea party protest (via Instapundit)

Won't open.

540 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:31:04pm

re: #532 pink freud

Your recommendations are worthless.

And I find your opinions worthless.

BTW, have you found us those links on Kitty Genovese yet? ;)

541 Gitarzan  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:31:11pm

re: #145 Racer X

I rarely downding. I save it for comments that are genuinely stupid, and when posters are in desperate need of treatment. This is one of those times.

Cato can't help getting even a sideways slam in on Sarah Palin, even if it means dragging her kids into it...it's an obsession with him, bordering on psychosis, IMNSHO.

542 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:31:19pm

Price, Speed, Quality.

Pick any two.

543 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:31:41pm

re: #531 jaunte

Bummer. Try here scroll down about 1/2 way the the sign reading, "King George didn't listen either".
Also a lot on nonsense about Obama tearing up the Constitution and Alex Jone's Obama/Joker poster.

544 Greengolem64  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:31:44pm

Yes they do...hehehe...neener neener neener. :)

re: #333 iceweasel

No, they don't.


heh

In a December 9th e-mail signed by “Eli Pariser, Justin Ruben, and the whole MoveOn PAC team,” the Soros front group stated: “In the last year, grassroots contributors like us gave more than $300 million to the Kerry campaign and the DNC, and proved that the Party doesn't need corporate cash to be competitive. Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back.”

545 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:31:53pm

re: #541 talon_262

Cato can't help getting even a sideways slam in on Sarah Palin, even if it means dragging her kids into it...it's an obsession with him, bordering on psychosis, IMNSHO.

you have it wrong too...

546 MikeySDCA  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:32:03pm

re: #542 jaunte

Price, Speed, Quality.

Pick any two.

If you're lucky.

547 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:32:05pm

re: #520 MikeySDCA

Honest politician?

548 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:32:08pm

re: #542 jaunte

Price, Speed, Quality.

Pick any two.

One of the Unalterable Truths of the Universe.

549 calcajun  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:32:32pm

re: #516 christheprofessor

Palestinian government?

No, that is an employee-owned insane asylum.

550 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:32:35pm

OT ,

David Ortiz (Bosron Red Sox) just slid into home. He looked like an uncoordinated big kid on a slip and slide

551 Irish Rose  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:32:37pm

Good afternoon, lizards.

552 Darwin Akbar  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:32:38pm

IMHO, forcing someone to buy health insurance (and deducting the funds from his/her bank account) is indeed unconstitutional. But my opinion does not count, since the decision will be ultimately made by a Wise Latina who believes in social justice and Ruth Ginsburg, who thinks she's entitled to base her "opinion" on constitutions of other countries.

Another thing that is probably unconstitutional is the attempt by the unelected "pay czar" or anyone else in the federal government to retroactively void a contract made between two parties - employer and employee - at arm's length. If I have an employment contract with a bank that obligates it to pay me $1 million, and I fulfill the terms of my contract, then I submit that the government has no power to deny me what is owed to me without due process no more than the government can seize my car or my house. If I have breached my contract, then my employer's remedy is to sue me and prove it in a court of law...and not just rescind my contract because Tim Geithner thinks I didn't work hard enough.

I am waiting for one of these bank executives to sue, and if they lose, then we will truly have become the Banana Republic of America.

553 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:32:45pm

re: #527 albusteve

it never ceases to amaze me how people can so easily concede their private lives to the govt...it's like science fiction to me, submission is so...weak

Let the gov't handle the minor little details, I've got to get crackin' on the big stuff in life, like how big of a TV will fit in my living room ?

554 nonic  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:33:42pm

re: #507 MikeySDCA

As Mr. Chief Justice Holmes said, "A Supreme Court Justice is a law student who grades his own examination papers."

I never heard that one. Another justice said, "We are not final because we are infallible, but infallible because we are final."

555 MikeySDCA  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:34:12pm

re: #547 christheprofessor

H. L.Mencken: "The set of things that in the nature of things cannot exist, like the square root of negative zero, or an homest Congressman."

556 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:34:36pm

re: #550 sattv4u2

OT ,

David Ortiz (Bosron Red Sox) just slid into home. He looked like an uncoordinated big kid on a slip and slide

That is a big man.

557 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:35:40pm

re: #530 The Shadow Do

Me: Doc, I have hemorrhoids
Doc: No Shadow, you are the hemorrhoid, let's talk end of life issues my friend...

In fact, after the "end of life," the hemorrhoid will forever orbit Uranus...

558 MacDuff  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:35:48pm

The big group that has not yet been discussed in this Heath Care debate is not “Grandma and Grandpa”; it’s the Baby Boomers, of which I am one.

My generation, this big lump of humanity flowing through the body politic, has transformed American society for the last half-century, or more, and we will continue to do so until we die – and when we die, we will transform the mortician industry.

Well, let me tell you something, since the Clinton era, I’ve been hearing about “Big Insurance” and Big Pharma” being spoken about as they were the dragons to be slain in search of “Health Care reform”. I have to say, I’m not so sure about that and never was.

I’m 56. In the last year, I’ve had some pretty serious health issues; I was treated by a “Big Hospital” corporation and “Big Insurance” picked up the tab - and the tab was enormous. I now take a myriad of medications that, keep me alive and productive. All of these medications were developed by “Big Pharma” and are being subsidized by “Big Insurance”. During this debate on Health Care, I have to ask myself how I would have fared under a government-run system.

In short, where would I be now, under the care of “Big Government”, better off or worse off?

Now, let’s take this one step further. We Boomers are aging and all of these health issues will only get worse. Sure, we’ve had our fun with the “Death Panels”, but seriously, when Boomers are in their 80s or 90s and are subject to a government system, how will the scarce resources be distributed?

By then, we will have likely bankrupted the Social Security system and we will likely come close to bankrupting a national health care system. So, will finite resources be expended to keep us alive, or will those resources be funneled to the “more productive”?

If you are younger, don’t contemplate that fate of the Boomers, contemplate your own fate. You’re next on the list.

559 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:35:49pm

re: #543 Killgore Trout

Bummer. Try here scroll down about 1/2 way the the sign reading, "King George didn't listen either".
Also a lot on nonsense about Obama tearing up the Constitution and Alex Jone's Obama/Joker poster.

Darn, no kill Obama posters.

560 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:36:12pm

Should Obama have to quit smoking in order to continue recieving public health care?

561 Irish Rose  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:36:31pm

I see that everyone is in a good mood this afternoon.

562 Shug  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:36:35pm

re: #456 wahabicorridor

Has it ever occured to you that you have something in common with Ann Coulter? You both may have valid points to make, but the ugliness employed renders you completely ineffective.

except Ann is occasionally entertaining

563 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:36:42pm

re: #551 Irish Rose

Good afternoon, lizards.

Hello Rose! Hope you're well!

And goodbye, for the moment. Late for my socialist socialising. //

564 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:36:47pm

re: #550 sattv4u2

OT ,

David Ortiz (Bosron Red Sox) just slid into home. He looked like an uncoordinated big kid on a slip and slide

As I used to say about one slightly uncoordinated fellow I played ball with, It's like watchin' a barge make a U-turn.

565 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:37:00pm

re: #552 Darwin Akbar

IMHO, forcing someone to buy health insurance (and deducting the funds from his/her bank account) is indeed unconstitutional. But my opinion does not count, since the decision will be ultimately made by a Wise Latina who believes in social justice and Ruth Ginsburg, who thinks she's entitled to base her "opinion" on constitutions of other countries.

Another thing that is probably unconstitutional is the attempt by the unelected "pay czar" or anyone else in the federal government to retroactively void a contract made between two parties - employer and employee - at arm's length. If I have an employment contract with a bank that obligates it to pay me $1 million, and I fulfill the terms of my contract, then I submit that the government has no power to deny me what is owed to me without due process no more than the government can seize my car or my house. If I have breached my contract, then my employer's remedy is to sue me and prove it in a court of law...and not just rescind my contract because Tim Geithner thinks I didn't work hard enough.

I am waiting for one of these bank executives to sue, and if they lose, then we will truly have become the Banana Republic of America.

"I won." BHO

My bank account feels strangely violated, no lubricant use either.

566 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:37:33pm

re: #543 Killgore Trout

Bummer. Try here scroll down about 1/2 way the the sign reading, "King George didn't listen either".
Also a lot on nonsense about Obama tearing up the Constitution and Alex Jone's Obama/Joker poster.

Those dangerous radicals. imagine one person showing up with a poster ("King George didn't listen either". ) that he probably didn't know the historical significance of

I say the ENTIRE Conservative Movement/ Republican Party should pay for his sin!!

567 Irish Rose  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:37:50pm

re: #563 iceweasel

Hello Rose! Hope you're well!

And goodbye, for the moment. Late for my socialist socialising. //

Seeya.

568 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:37:52pm

re: #558 MacDuff
Wait I'm a Boomer, we're actually going to die?

569 BignJames  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:37:58pm

re: #550 sattv4u2

OT ,

David Ortiz (Bosron Red Sox) just slid into home. He looked like an uncoordinated big kid on a slip and slide


Well, was he safe?

570 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:38:37pm

The only thing that seems to be working for me here is the "post this comment" button. Everything else either does nothing, or bounces me back to the front page. Since no one else seems to be having this problem, there must be something wrong with my browser. I'll check back later. Have a nice weekend Lizards!

571 Gella  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:38:57pm

i am late for a good topic
i heard somewhere, if you don't have health insurance you'll be charged penalty about $2500, its insane

572 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:39:21pm

re: #561 Irish Rose

I see that everyone is in a good mood this afternoon.


Well, I'm here with Brady Buru Quinn. Trying to teach him some Rebel tunes.

573 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:39:45pm

re: #569 BignJames

Well, was he safe?

Yup, belly, butt and all!

574 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:40:11pm

re: #566 sattv4u2

Yes, to compare Obama to King George with the implication of violent revolt is an extremist position.

575 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:40:21pm

re: #553 SasquatchOnSteroids

Let the gov't handle the minor little details, I've got to get crackin' on the big stuff in life, like how big of a TV will fit in my living room ?

It's a moot question, as the gummint won't leave you with enough cash to purchase a big screen TV. Besides, they are likely energy hogs and will be outlawed in the near future (for our own good, you see)...

576 Van Helsing  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:40:54pm

re: #568 opnion

Wait I'm a Boomer, we're actually going to die?

That's just another malicious rumor being spread by opponents of health care reform.

Don't believe it.

577 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:41:06pm

re: #573 sattv4u2

Yup, belly, butt and all!

Yup ,, belly, butt and all

578 BignJames  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:41:48pm

re: #573 sattv4u2

Yup, belly, butt and all!


Think about it...if you were the catcher...would you block the plate?

579 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:42:26pm

re: #578 BignJames

Think about it...if you were the catcher...would you block the plate?

for 10 million a year...yes

580 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:42:44pm

re: #574 Killgore Trout

Yes, to compare Obama to King George with the implication of violent revolt is an extremist position.

One which every conservative and republican must be held accountable for BECAUSE this one protester brought that sign and the rest of the protesters must have been complicent because they didn't rip it from him and shout him down

THAT was the point of my response, btw

581 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:43:43pm

re: #578 BignJames

Think about it...if you were the catcher...would you block the plate?

A) I would never be a catcher
B) If I wer forced to be one as Ortiz was coming towards home I'd be heading towards right field.. QUICKLY!

582 BignJames  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:44:04pm

re: #579 albusteve

for 10 million a year...yes


How much is Burress givin' up for shootin' his own dumb ass?

583 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:44:08pm

re: #555 MikeySDCA

There ya go!

584 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:44:12pm

re: #574 Killgore Trout

Yes, to compare Obama to King George with the implication of violent revolt is an extremist position.

Come on KT, that was hardly the implication. There is a revolution at the ballot box which is how we got Obama & how he can be removed.

585 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:46:06pm

re: #576 Van Helsing

That's just another malicious rumor being spread by opponents of health care reform.

Don't believe it.

Whew! Thank you, now back to looking at my groovy lava lamp, cranking Stairway to Heaven.

586 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:46:24pm

re: #582 BignJames

How much is Burress givin' up for shootin' his own dumb ass?

20 months with good behavior

587 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:47:13pm

re: #571 Gella

i am late for a good topic
i heard somewhere, if you don't have health insurance you'll be charged penalty about $2500, its insane


Wait til you get the $50 fine for not wearing your official Obama shirt on Fridays. Makes as much sense.

588 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:47:30pm

re: #584 opnion

Come on KT, that was hardly the implication. There is a revolution at the ballot box which is how we got Obama & how he can be removed.

KTs on a mission

589 BignJames  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:47:34pm

re: #586 albusteve

20 months with good behavior


No, I mean $$.

590 redc1c4  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:47:39pm

re: #584 opnion

Come on KT, that was hardly the implication. There is a revolution at the ballot box which is how we got Obama & how he can be removed.

forgive KT: everything that he doesn't agree with gets blown out of proportion...

591 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:47:44pm

re: #586 albusteve

20 months with good behavior

Which reminds me

592 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:48:07pm

re: #586 albusteve

20 months with good behavior

a helluva lot more financially, not even counting that when he gets out (even on good behaviour ) it will be 3 seasons since he last played. I doubt he;ll see another NFL feild unless he buys a ticket

593 redc1c4  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:48:32pm

re: #588 albusteve

KTs on a mission for his lord and master...

FTFY!

594 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:48:44pm

re: #589 BignJames

No, I mean $$.

I know that...but I don't know that...8-10m a year?

595 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:49:34pm

re: #574 Killgore Trout

Yes, to compare Obama to King George with the implication of violent revolt is an extremist position.

Good grief, given the history of American political expression your take is just a bit over the top. Why do you find this so unusual, cause it just ain't.

596 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:49:37pm

re: #588 albusteve

KTs on a mission

Yeah, but I don't think that he believes that.

597 redc1c4  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:49:43pm

re: #592 sattv4u2

a helluva lot more financially, not even counting that when he gets out (even on good behaviour ) it will be 3 seasons since he last played. I doubt he;ll see another NFL feild unless he buys a ticket

self inflicted wound... he can find sympathy in the dictionary.

it's right between 'shit' and 'syphilis'.

598 Gella  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:50:19pm

re: #587 The Shadow Do

Wait til you get the $50 fine for not wearing your official Obama shirt on Fridays. Makes as much sense.

grrr, i'd rather have a Hawaiian shirt week (from office space), then zero shirt day

599 redc1c4  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:50:27pm

re: #596 opnion

Yeah, but I don't think that he believes that.

au contraire: he''s a true believer, and we are all apostates.

600 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:50:28pm

re: #592 sattv4u2

a helluva lot more financially, not even counting that when he gets out (even on good behaviour ) it will be 3 seasons since he last played. I doubt he;ll see another NFL feild unless he buys a ticket

I was being clever...he stands to lose a huge pile of money tho...no less than 20 million I'd guess

601 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:50:32pm

re: #590 redc1c4

forgive KT: everything that he doesn't agree with gets blown out of proportion...


Got it.

602 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:50:40pm

re: #594 albusteve

I know that...but I don't know that...8-10m a year?

Plaxico Burress signed a five-year, $35 million contract extension prior to the season,

603 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:51:11pm

The local teapartiers got pwn3d by the Dems. They announced they were going to have their own town hall meeting because the politicians weren't going to come here, but right after they made the announcement, the politicians scheduled their town halls at the same time, in locations that prevented people from going to both. I think they've been infiltrated.

604 BignJames  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:51:13pm

re: #594 albusteve

I know that...but I don't know that...8-10m a year?

Easily, I'd guess...what'd Eli sign for? 90 some mil?

605 redc1c4  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:51:32pm

re: #598 Gella

grrr, i'd rather have a Hawaiian shirt week (from office space), then zero shirt day

i'd show up with no shirt, and they'd never ask me to wear it again. %-)

606 Fierce Guppy  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:51:37pm

re: #574 Killgore Trout

Yes, to compare Obama to King George with the implication of violent revolt is an extremist position.

Are you saying that King Obama is going to send soldiers to kill dissenters?

Tony.

607 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:52:36pm

re: #602 sattv4u2

Plaxico Burress signed a five-year, $35 million contract extension prior to the season,

he's not as good as I thought he was!...

608 Gella  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:52:38pm

re: #605 redc1c4

i'd show up with no shirt, and they'd never ask me to wear it again. %-)

ha ha ha, it will be a Kodak moment :) then u work will institute mandatory suit wear every day of the week

609 redc1c4  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:52:39pm

re: #606 Fierce Guppy

Are you saying that King Obama is going to send soldiers to kill dissenters?

Tony.

not Soldiers, SEIU members...

610 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:52:51pm

re: #588 albusteve

Yes, I was just looking into the sponsors of the Recess Rallies. Mostly the same lovely people who brought us the Tea Parties. I'm sure it'll work out better this time.

611 christheprofessor  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:53:01pm

Shamelessly lifted from GrouchyOldCripple:

A lawyer boarded an airplane in New Orleans with a box of frozen crabs and asked a blonde stewardess to take care of them for him.

She accepted the box and promised to put it in the crew's refrigerator. He advised her that he was holding her personally responsible for them staying frozen, mentioning in a very haughty manner that he was a lawyer, and proceeded to threaten her with what would happen if she let them thaw out. Needless to say, she was annoyed by his behavior.

Shortly before landing in New York, she used the intercom to announce to the entire cabin, "Would the gentleman who gave me the crabs in New Orleans, please raise your hand?"

Not one hand went up... so she took them home and ate them.

Two lessons here:

1. Lawyers aren't as smart as they think they are.

2. Blondes aren't always as dumb as most folks think

612 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:53:05pm

re: #485 reine.de.tout

But your card right now does not have your bank account information encoded,does it?

I read the NRO article at the link, and it suggest that your card would have your bank account information on it, giving providers, etc., access. I read the provision they were talking about and I cant see that it means that, but I'm not all that good at interpreting legal jargon.

I'm not so great at the legal jargon either. But I have read the Section over and over again, and I just can't see any possible way that it could be construed as requiring that one's bank account number be encoded on the insurance card. In fact, I think there's nothing that even remotely could be construed as requiring that an individual even have a bank account.

613 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:53:14pm

re: #600 albusteve

I was being clever...he stands to lose a huge pile of money tho...no less than 20 million I'd guess

I was even going to do him a favor and send him a copy of 'The Secret' since it worked out so well for a previous prison inmate, but then I decided...nah...to much work.

/

614 capitalist piglet  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:53:48pm

re: #584 opnion

Come on KT, that was hardly the implication. There is a revolution at the ballot box which is how we got Obama & how he can be removed.

If every protest sign is to be taken literally, we've got bigger problems than that guy. Check zombie's reports on Bush era protests for proof of that.

I'm more concerned about the STFD and STFU message I keep seeing than I am about people exercising their constitutional right to air their grievances. I like this whole 'liberty' thing, myself. I'd sure as hell hate to lose it, especially from fear of being criticized by the left.

615 Gella  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:54:20pm

does anyone seen Inglourious Basterds??

616 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:54:39pm

I know you guys don't believe me. Just wait. One of the douche bags is going to blow something up or make an assassination attempt. I'd be very surprised if we make it through 8 years of Obama with it happening.

617 Irish Rose  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:56:04pm

re: #616 Killgore Trout

I know you guys don't believe me. Just wait. One of the douche bags is going to blow something up or make an assassination attempt. I'd be very surprised if we make it through 8 .2 years of Obama with it happening.

Fixed.

618 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:56:34pm

re: #610 Killgore Trout

Yes, I was just looking into the sponsors of the Recess Rallies. Mostly the same lovely people who brought us the Tea Parties. I'm sure it'll work out better this time.

Miracle Max: "Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive."

619 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:56:44pm

re: #410 iceweasel

Since when do Americans have to reveal who they voted for?

They don't have to. We sure enjoy having non-Americans tell us how to run our country, though. Thanks.

620 albusteve  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:56:46pm

re: #610 Killgore Trout

Yes, I was just looking into the sponsors of the Recess Rallies. Mostly the same lovely people who brought us the Tea Parties. I'm sure it'll work out better this time.

just keep doing what your doing...I don't mind it when you annoy me...it needs to be brought to the surface no matter what people say...just don't include me in their nuttiness

621 harpsicon  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:56:47pm

re: #97 iceweasel

Upding because I completely agree with you. You may be surprised to learn that a majority of the lefty-sphere, and certainly the progsphere, does as well.

As a progressive, I am not registered Democrat and I have only slightly less loathing for the Democrats than I do the Republicans.

What exactly does "progressive" mean to you? Is it like a European "social democratic" party? You seem always to make the kinds of assumptions I associate, in my cynical way, with uninformed Democrats - and yet you're here, where the general level of information, and of intelligent skepticism, are pretty high...

622 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:57:19pm

re: #615 Gella

does anyone seen Inglourious Basterds??

Yes,, I have C SPAN

oh ,, wait ,, nevermind

623 HelloDare  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:58:36pm

Not that this makes a difference, but here's the Presidential Oath of Office. Pretty simple. Notice how it mentions this thing called the Constitution.

I Barack Hussein Obama do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

You can hear a recording of Obama's oath, here.

624 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 1:59:47pm

re: #616 Killgore Trout

I know you guys don't believe me. Just wait. One of the douche bags is going to blow something up or make an assassination attempt. I'd be very surprised if we make it through 8 years of Obama with it happening.

Entirely possible, if not likely. How does that make your point? Short of kill Obama posters and other such incitations the link to protests against what many see as a serious encroachment of government is pretty weak to me. Should the debate be limited to a moderated panel at a University or somesuch?

The knee jerk to conservative protests seems really odd to me. Americans protest a lot, it is what we do.

625 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:00:26pm

re: #574 Killgore Trout

Yes, to compare Obama to King George with the implication of violent revolt is an extremist position.

It's so pretentious it's almost cute.

Almost.

626 HelloDare  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:00:31pm

re: #622 sattv4u2

Yes,, I have C SPAN

oh ,, wait ,, nevermind

They're bastards with an "a".

627 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:00:39pm

re: #571 Gella

i am late for a good topic
i heard somewhere, if you don't have health insurance you'll be charged penalty about $2500, its insane

I think you may be referring to Section 401 (of the proposed House bill). It states that if you don't have health insurance during a particular year, you'll be charged an extra tax equal to the lesser of 2.5% of your gross income, and the average national health insurance premium for individual insurance with a "basic" health care plan, for that year. Actually, the tax is prorated. So if you don't have any health insurance for half of the year, your tax will be half of the average annual insurance premium. You'll also be liable for providing health insurance for your dependents.

There are certain exceptions, which I could list if anyone wants.

628 TheAntichrist  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:01:18pm

I don't see why not. After all, they can require Social Security and right there in the Constitution is that it is a proper role of Congress to "promote the general welfare". And then as now welfare and health are part and parcel of the same thing.

I'd much prefer that health care reform be done in another way (I really like how it's done in the Netherlands) but since the GOP has brought nothing to the table as the crisis has mounted over the years they can't complain that the other guy brought a shit sandwich as the main course.

Let the down-dinging begin!

629 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:01:22pm

re: #614 capitalist piglet

If every protest sign is to be taken literally, we've got bigger problems than that guy. Check zombie's reports on Bush era protests for proof of that.

I'm more concerned about the STFD and STFU message I keep seeing than I am about people exercising their constitutional right to air their grievances. I like this whole 'liberty' thing, myself. I'd sure as hell hate to lose it, especially from fear of being criticized by the left.

Isn't Liberty great? Folks can go and rage and wave guns, and others can be critical of it- left and right. Folks are also free to associate with the raging gun toters or not. Beautiful thing, Liberty.

630 kcladderman  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:02:30pm

re: #628 TheAntichrist

I don't see why not. After all, they can require Social Security and right there in the Constitution is that it is a proper role of Congress to "promote the general welfare". And then as now welfare and health are part and parcel of the same thing.

I'd much prefer that health care reform be done in another way (I really like how it's done in the Netherlands) but since the GOP has brought nothing to the table as the crisis has mounted over the years they can't complain that the other guy brought a shit sandwich as the main course.

Let the down-dinging begin!

BULLSHIT!

631 ArchangelMichael  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:03:26pm

re: #616 Killgore Trout

I know you guys don't believe me. Just wait. One of the douche bags is going to blow something up or make an assassination attempt. I'd be very surprised if we make it through 8 years of Obama with it happening.

And that douche bag will be either a neonazi, a Paulian who hates government no matter who's in charge, or someone who forgot to take his meds for a long time... or more likely a combination of the above.

Average law-abiding citizens, Republicans or not, pissed off or not, gun owners or not, don't try to kill politicians. Unhinged kooks and maniacs do.

632 Last Mohican  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:05:32pm

re: #628 TheAntichrist

since the GOP has brought nothing to the table as the crisis has mounted over the years

I don't think that's true. Consider Bush's efforts at tort reform, for example.

they can't complain that the other guy brought a shit sandwich as the main course.

I don't think that's valid. President Clinton did nothing to prevent Al Qaeda from gaining power during his terms. Does that mean Democrats shouldn't have been allowed to criticize the Patriot Act?

633 Fierce Guppy  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:08:31pm

re: #616 Killgore Trout

I know you guys don't believe me. Just wait. One of the douche bags is going to blow something up or make an assassination attempt. I'd be very surprised if we make it through 8 years of Obama with it happening.

No, the problem is you lack any sense of proportion to the extent that a protester bearing a "King George didn't listen either" placard is a potential homicidal maniac.

BTW, what has the Obama/Joker poster got to do with Alex Jones?

Tony.

634 The Shadow Do  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:09:10pm

re: #628 TheAntichrist

I don't see why not. After all, they can require Social Security and right there in the Constitution is that it is a proper role of Congress to "promote the general welfare". And then as now welfare and health are part and parcel of the same thing.

I'd much prefer that health care reform be done in another way (I really like how it's done in the Netherlands) but since the GOP has brought nothing to the table as the crisis has mounted over the years they can't complain that the other guy brought a shit sandwich as the main course.

Let the down-dinging begin!

Untrue, tort reform and cross state insurance has been refused a hearing from the left for a very klonbg time - since it would violate their trust with trial lawyers and other income sources. So yes, there is plenty of room for complaint from the right - which has exactly zero input into this current situation.

The Dems can do as they damn well please. Why don't they?

635 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:10:26pm

re: #616 Killgore Trout

I know you guys don't believe me. Just wait. One of the douche bags is going to blow something up or make an assassination attempt. I'd be very surprised if we make it through 8 years of Obama with it happening.

I got $20 bucks that says, if anything happens, it will be from a lib, hopefully a journalist (just for full effect), maybe even a contributor to huffpo, or Kos, who is so desperate to be proven right in that the 'rightwing' are a bunch of 'whacko's' that he/she then goes 'moby' and does it all alone for the 'greater good' to sell the 'rightwing/militia/whacko' package. The MSM will then jump all over it. Even though it will be proven later to be a code pinko, or an A.N.S.W.E.R. chump or something of that ilk, the damage will have been done and it will be too late.

/of course this whole line of argument is just dumb in the first place.

636 pat  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:15:39pm

Involuntary Servitude. Yep. Says so right there,

637 EaterOfFood  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:17:11pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

Trig Palin should have watched his lifestyle choices. Why should anyone else pay for his Down syndrome?

By definition no one chooses a disability that they are born with.

EPIC FAIL. And by EPIC, I mean as big as War and Peace. The large print edition.

638 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:19:52pm

re: #614 capitalist piglet

If every protest sign is to be taken literally, we've got bigger problems than that guy. Check zombie's reports on Bush era protests for proof of that.

I'm more concerned about the STFD and STFU message I keep seeing than I am about people exercising their constitutional right to air their grievances. I like this whole 'liberty' thing, myself. I'd sure as hell hate to lose it, especially from fear of being criticized by the left.

This whole meme thaty the protestors are evil mongers, a violent mob etc is a diversion. Oh my God there was a Ron Paul supportges at a Tea Party or a Larushieata town hall!
These ar mostly decent people tjhat feel like they are being pushed around,
SEIU thugs beat people up including a stage 4 cncer patiient & well you know, shit happen.

639 EaterOfFood  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:22:34pm

re: #228 swamprat

Nonsense. It makes no sense for them to help send this locomotive over a cliff. Let the Democrats steer, shovel fuel, decide the speed and hold the throttle. When the impending disaster hits they will scrable to find others to blame.

The republicans should all be back at the depot, waving goodbye.

Unfortunately, if we get stuck with it, we all are stuck in the cabooses as they get flung off the track.

640 opnion  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:23:18pm

re: #619 debutaunt

They don't have to. We sure enjoy having non-Americans tell us how to run our country, though. Thanks.

Wait, is she not a citizen?

641 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:51:07pm

With an expansive view of the "Commerce Clause" - "ObamaCare" IS, arguably Constitutional.
The AMAZING THING IS, that "The Bill" as currently written seems to have NO REFERENCE to the "Commerce Clause." The Question is - "WHY?"
That is all.

-S-

642 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 2:51:40pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

No, he just wanted to privatize it for his masters.

That's such an insane accusation, that I'd really enjoy hearing the rationale for it. Could you please enlighten us?

643 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:00:30pm

There's an interesting constitutional question about whether an "entitlement" can be coerced. Can you force Americans to take the entitlement ("free" or "subsidized" health care), and then force them to pay for it?

644 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:02:57pm

re: #640 opnion

Wait, is she not a citizen?

A Brit, I believe. She has straightened out jolly old and has set a goal of getting the USA on the correct course.

645 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:09:09pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

I'm sorry if sarcasm is lost on 1SG(ret)

I've often wondered what that 'ret' stands for.

646 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:14:01pm

re: #19 sattv4u2

You can't legislate people into healthier ways of living. FREE GOVERNMENT CHEESE BRUSSEL SPROUTS

Brussel sprouts got a bad rap somewhere, probably when they were steamed rather than baked with light olive oil, lemon juice and pepper. Baked, they're quite tasty. Steamed? Unpleasant to the nose and bland if not bitter.

647 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:17:24pm

Health Mandate Could Impose Costly Burden On Middle Class

Although the House health care bill comes with a price tag of $1 trillion-plus, it's telling that President Obama showcased a figure of $800 billion to $900 billion at his recent town hall meetings.

Shedding the trillion-dollar label might appeal to Blue Dog Democrats reluctant to embrace tax hikes and a big expansion of government.

But the government mandate to buy insurance that is central to the Democratic plans means that a slimmer-looking health bill might be largely an illusion; more of the overhaul's burden would shift to the middle class, which could be required to pay a whole lot more to buy less in the way of coverage.

That's why the emerging conventional wisdom that Democrats could win passage of a scaled-down bill might be wrong.

Read the whole thing.

/the Country can't afford it, the Citizens can's afford it, and it won't work anyway

648 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:21:48pm

re: #619 debutaunt

They don't have to. We sure enjoy having non-Americans tell us how to run our country, though. Thanks.

Who exactly would that be?
Is this another demand for my birth certificate?

649 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:28:33pm

re: #644 debutaunt

A Brit, I believe. She has straightened out jolly old and has set a goal of getting the USA on the correct course.

I'd normally say let's see your source on that but in this case I'll refrain since the source is clearly your ass..

650 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:32:03pm

re: #648 iceweasel

Who exactly would that be?
Is this another demand for my birth certificate?

I guessed a Brit based on the use of language, but apologize humbly if I have guessed wrong.

651 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:33:17pm

re: #649 Jimmah

I'd normally say let's see your source on that but in this case I'll refrain since the source is clearly your ass..

You are such a cutie.

652 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:34:24pm

re: #650 debutaunt

I guessed a Brit based on the use of language, but apologize humbly if I have guessed wrong.

Cheers. No worries.

re: #651 debutaunt

You are such a cutie.

He is, isn't he? upding!

653 kansas  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:36:36pm

re: #651 debutaunt

You are such a cutie.

Funny, that's not what I've been thinking about Jimmah. Isn't he that kid on South Park? Jimmah...

654 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:37:57pm

re: #651 debutaunt

re: #652 iceweasel

Aww shucks :-) I'm embarrassed now.

655 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:43:31pm

re: #653 kansas

Funny, that's not what I've been thinking about Jimmah. Isn't he that kid on South Park? Jimmah...

No, that's Timmah. Try to at least get your pop cultural references right. What kind of American are you?

656 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:44:58pm

re: #653 kansas

Funny, that's not what I've been thinking about Jimmah. Isn't he that kid on South Park? Jimmah...

Because a crippled kid with a stammer could never be 'cute' could they?

What a lame and creepy dig, kansas - seriously.

657 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:48:18pm

I'd forgotten that the Medicare program is part of Social Security-- title XVIII to be exact. And check out the introductory sections of the statute:

[Link: www.ssa.gov...]

"Sec. 1801. [42 U.S.C. 1395] Nothing in this title shall be construed to authorize any Federal officer or employee to exercise any supervision or control over the practice of medicine or the manner in which medical services are provided, or over the selection, tenure, or compensation of any officer or employee of any institution, agency, or person providing health services; or to exercise any supervision or control over the administration or operation of any such institution, agency, or person."

Hmmm. Things are about to change.

658 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:48:39pm

re: #656 Jimmah

Because a crippled kid with a stammer could never be 'cute' could they?

What a lame and creepy dig, kansas - seriously.

Vile.

Hello Jimmah. ;) Hope you're well today.

659 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:49:16pm

So the Weasel's a Limey? That would explain a lot! England, Scotland, or Wales, Weasel?

660 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:50:11pm

Lebanese man is target of first rendition under Obama

"Reporting from Alexandria, Va. - A Lebanese citizen being held in a detention center here was hooded, stripped naked for photographs and bundled onto an executive jet by FBI agents in Afghanistan in April, making him the first known target of a rendition during the Obama administration."

Hope! Change!

661 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:53:33pm

re: #657 quickjustice

I'd forgotten that the Medicare program is part of Social Security-- title XVIII to be exact.

And how many scores of trillions of dollars are these programs already in the hole?

/hey, I've got an idea, let's compound the already unsolvable problem by adding tens of trillions more in unfunded mandates!

662 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:55:54pm

re: #659 quickjustice

So the Weasel's a Limey? That would explain a lot! England, Scotland, or Wales, Weasel?

This has come up before and I now refuse to answer all questions about my citizenship, party affiliation, voting record, residence, etc. on principle. Because they keep coming up, and such demands are really about me 'proving' I have the right to express opinions.

You'll notice that I refer to American policies and America as 'we'. Draw your own conclusions.

663 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:56:39pm

The history of the Social Security Administration is here:

[Link: www.ssa.gov...]

And the text of the original Social Security Act of 1935 is here:

[Link: www.ssa.gov...]

The Congress used its authority "to provide for the general welfare" under the Constitution. Interesting.

664 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 3:59:21pm

re: #662 iceweasel

As you please. But if you're an internationalist or a member of the Socialist Collective, you believe in the brotherhood of man, regardless of national boundaries. Solidarity Forever!

665 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:00:50pm

re: #664 quickjustice

As you please. But if you're an internationalist or a member of the Socialist Collective, you believe in the brotherhood of man, regardless of national boundaries. Solidarity Forever!

No kidding.

666 Danny  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:01:30pm

re: #543 Killgore Trout

Bummer. Try here scroll down about 1/2 way the the sign reading, "King George didn't listen either".
Also a lot on nonsense about Obama tearing up the Constitution and Alex Jone's Obama/Joker poster.

I'm not up to speed on Paulian symbology. How does the "King George" sign demonstrate the Paulification of the Republican party?

667 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:01:31pm

re: #659 quickjustice

So the Weasel's a Limey? That would explain a lot! England, Scotland, or Wales, Weasel?

LOL Very sporting of you to advertise your total lack of reading comprehension skills like that, quickjustice - really.

668 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:02:16pm

re: #664 quickjustice

As you please. But if you're an internationalist or a member of the Socialist Collective, you believe in the brotherhood of man, regardless of national boundaries. Solidarity Forever!

I'm a citizen of the world, Comrade!

There does appear to be more than one copy of my birth certificate in existence. Hmmm...

669 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:04:51pm
670 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:06:21pm

re: #644 debutaunt

A Brit, I believe. She has straightened out jolly old and has set a goal of getting the USA on the correct course.

This is getting out of hand, and I'm surprised to see you as one of the people buying into this.

671 Danny  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:06:34pm

Take THAT #669!

672 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:08:39pm

re: #658 iceweasel

Vile.

Hello Jimmah. ;) Hope you're well today.

Hi Iceweaselski ;) The starlings in Gorky Park are nesting again, I see.

673 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:11:04pm

re: #667 Jimmah

"Sporting"-- Hmmm. Americans don't use that word. And as for my lack of reading comprehension skills my ancient Greek, my Latin, and my Hebrew can use some brushing up! ;-)

674 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:12:39pm

re: #668 iceweasel

I'm a citizen of the world, Comrade!

There does appear to be more than one copy of my birth certificate in existence. Hmmm...

As long as we can keep them fooled about our stinking limey plot to subvert America...

Youtube Video
675 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:13:35pm

re: #673 quickjustice

"Sporting"-- Hmmm. Americans don't use that word.

Bollocks. ;)

676 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:14:24pm

re: #675 iceweasel

Just corking.

677 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:14:35pm

re: #673 quickjustice

"Sporting"-- Hmmm. Americans don't use that word. And as for my lack of reading comprehension skills my ancient Greek, my Latin, and my Hebrew can use some brushing up! ;-)

I'd forget about them for the moment and concentrate on my English if I were you!

678 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:15:21pm

re: #674 Jimmah

Higgins: "It's "'ow" and "garn" that keep her in her place. Not her wretched clothes and dirty face."

679 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:17:03pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

Funny, pointing out that the "you're responsible for your own health because of the choices you make" argument has very real limitations and using Trig Palin as an example of those limits seems to touch a nerve.

What part do you disagree with? Trig can't help who he is, and his jeopardy (being excluded from some future insurance policy because of a pre-existing condition) would be neatly resolved by legislation restricting cherry-picking and exclusions for such conditions. Which would seem to put me on his side. And that of special-needs kids with lesser-known, less well-endowed parents. The Palins can probably shelter Trig for life, but what of others?

And yet the "you don't need expensive treatment unless you mess up your own health" crowd draws big applause here. Well, what about those special-needs children?

I'm sorry if sarcasm is lost on 1SG(ret), capitalist piglet, Greengolem64, Lincolntf, Lynn B., MandyManners, Noam Sayin', pre-Boomer Marine brat, Pvt Bin Jammin, Racer X, ROP?LOL, SasquatchOnSteroids, Shug, snowcrash, VioletTiger, etc., but maybe they'll come out with a medication for that, like for restless leg syndrome. Hope your policies cover it!

I got your sarcasm loud and clear. And I thought it was a totally inappropriate and tasteless response to Racer X's #104. He (?) asked you a legitimate question,

So everyone will need expensive health care?

based on your response to his #65. You jumped all over him for saying there are varying needs for medical care based on lifestyle choices and then you dragged Trig Palin into it. He didn't say lifestyle choices were the ONLY basis and I doubt there are many people here who believe that, contrary to your assumption. I certainly don't.

680 1SG(ret)  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:17:52pm

re: #645 Jimmah
ret=Retired if you must know.

681 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:18:35pm

re: #677 Jimmah

So-- how are things in the East End, anyway? Been by St. Mary-le-Bow lately?

682 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:19:52pm

And your old friend Galloway? How's he doing?

683 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:22:45pm

re: #674 Jimmah

As long as we can keep them fooled about our stinking limey plot to subvert America...

I really can never get tired of that song, or that video. ;)
Or our trickse plot!

Youtube Video
684 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:23:12pm

re: #682 quickjustice

And your old friend Galloway? How's he doing?

Corking- he's simply corking, my good Chap.

685 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:24:04pm

re: #681 quickjustice

So-- how are things in the East End, anyway? Been by St. Mary-le-Bow lately?

With a little bit o' bloomin' luck.

686 David Simon  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:24:22pm
But can Congress require every American to buy health insurance?

LMAO! Congress already requires that my money be taken away from me to buy food, clothing, shelter, etc. for people who I've never even met. It's a tad late to invoke the constitutional argument, methinks.

687 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:24:38pm
688 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:24:51pm

re: #681 quickjustice

So-- how are things in the East End, anyway? Been by St. Mary-le-Bow lately?

I think you might need to brush up on your English-- not merely your American English, but your British English.

BTW, so far as I know, 'limey' applies only to the English-- not the British.

689 1SG(ret)  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:25:02pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder
Now that I know you don't use sarc tags, I'll just assume everything you type is sarc and disregard anything you type!

690 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:26:22pm

re: #682 quickjustice

And your old friend Galloway? How's he doing?

Last I heard he was chatting away happily with your friends Pat Robertson and David Duke.

(see how easy, yet invalid that was?)

691 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:27:12pm

re: #688 iceweasel

To the Australians they're all bloody pommy bastards!

692 tradewind  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:27:17pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

No matter how pendulous your jowl, there's no way you could ever wedge your tongue into your cheek far enough to pretend that's what you were actually doing with that sorry screed.

693 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:27:44pm

re: #685 Jimmah

Oranges and lemons
Say the bells of St Clements
You owe me five farthings
Say the bells of St Martins
When will you pay me?
Say the bells of Old Bailey
When I grow rich
Say the bells of Shoreditch
When will that be?
Say the bells of Stepney
I'm sure I don't know
Says the great bell at Bow
Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head

Chop chop chop chop the last man's head!

694 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:28:53pm

re: #683 iceweasel

I really can never get tired of that song, or that video. ;)
Or our trickse plot!


Our trickse plot gets stronger every day, stronger every day! ;-)

695 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:29:30pm

re: #690 Jimmah

Interesting-- I didn't address the Galloway remark to you.

696 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:30:03pm
697 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:32:05pm

Bells of St Clements

St Clements, Eastcheap, is a small church, only 64 feet long and 40 feet wide, and stands huddled between two office blocks. There has been a church on the site since the 11th Century; the present one is the third to be standing on the site. The original church was demolished in the 15th Century, and the second was destroyed during the Great Fire of London in 1666. It was rebuilt by Sir Christopher Wren in 1687.

The church stands in St Clements Lane, in fact, the name of the street comes from the church. It was previously known as Eastcheap. The rhyme begins with this church because when the Thames was wider than it is today, the wharf where the citrus fruit cargoes from the Mediterranean were delivered lay just across the street. It is said the church bells pealed when a cargo arrived.

Bells of St Martins

St Martin Orgar church, near Cannon Street, lost its congregation to St Clements church after the body of the church was destroyed in the Great Fire. In 1670 the parish was officially united with the parish of St Clements Eastcheap. The bell tower and part of the nave survived, and the church was rebuilt and used by French Protestants (Hugenots) until 1820, when all but the tower was pulled down. This was rebuilt in 1851 as a rectory for St Clements, and the old bell was rehung as a clock bell in a projecting clock. Now used as offices, it is in Martin Lane, a street that was once notorious for moneylenders.

698 horse  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:33:10pm

re: #11 pink freud

...
Only it’s not something for nothing. “Free” health-care costs us something precious, and no less precious for being invisible. Because there’s a word for someone who has their food, housing and care provided for them… for people who owe their existence to someone else.

And that word is “slaves.”

Slaves is probably not quite the right word; it implies we didn't initially have a choice. Whores might be a closer word describing the existence. They give us stuff until it runs out, we give them our freewill and assets. Future generations may be the slaves, we'll just be the whores who sold them out.

699 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:33:38pm

Bells of Old Bailey

St Sepulchre-without-Newgate is the largest church in the city of London. Built around 1450, it was badly damaged in the Great Fire and was rebuilt by Sir Christopher Wren in 1670-1. The historic tower holds the 12 bells of Old Bailey that were restored in 1985. They had been there since 1739, having replaced bells bought from the Priory Church of St Bartholomew in 1537.

Saint Sepulchre was not a person. The original Saxon church on this site was dedicated to the King of East Anglia - St Edmund the Martyr - and was called St Edmund-without-Newgate. At the time of the Crusades, the church became known as 'St Edmund and the Holy Sepulchre', and eventually became 'St Sepulchre' after the Holy Sepulchre of Christ in Jerusalem.

The church's tenor bell in the bell tower was rung on mornings when there was an execution in Newgate Prison (now the site of the more well-known Old Bailey - the Central Criminal Court). The church still has the 'Execution Bell' in a glass case. This is the hand bell that was rung for other services concerning condemned prisoners, including ringing it outside the condemned cell at midnight. Newgate Prison acquired its own bell in 1783, and the tenor bell was no longer used on execution mornings.

Bells of Shoreditch

St Leonard's church, on Kingsland Road, Shoreditch. Now part of the London Borough of Hackney, it was founded in the 12th Century. After collapsing during a service in 1716, the spire was rebuilt as a copy of St Mary-le-Bow in Cheapside in the 1730s. The village whipping post and stocks are still in the churchyard.

The area was known for its great poverty. The 'five farthings' debt is centuries old, possibly from the Middle Ages.

Bells of Stepney

St Dunstan and All Saints Church in Stepney, was built in 952 AD by the Bishop of London St Dunstan, when the old wooden church that previously occupied the site was knocked down. At the time, it was dedicated to All Saints only, but St Dunstan was added in 1029 after he had been canonised. The present church dates from 1400, but the chancel dates from 200 years earlier, and the font is about 1000 years old.

The church has ten bells, the oldest of which was recast in 1385.

Great bell at Bow

St Mary-le-Bow, in Cheapside, is also known as Bow Church. There has been a church on the site since 1070. During the 14th Century a curfew was rung on the Bow Bells every night at 9pm; probably the origin of the tradition that anyone born within hearing distance of Bow Bells ringing is a true Cockney.

Rebuilt from 1670 to 1682 by Sir Christopher Wren after it was destroyed during the Great Fire, the name comes from the architecture. There are bow arches in the Norman Crypt, which are repeated in the arches of the steeple. Eight bells were cast for the finished church. Bells were added over the years until it had 12. Destroyed again in 1941 during the blitz of World War II, only the steeple, with its dragon weathercock and two outer walls, were left standing. Restored between 1952 and 1962, the 12 bells were recast and rehung.

The BBC used the peal of these bells at the start of each broadcast to occupied Europe during World War II.

700 Temporarily Embarrassed Millionaire  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:36:19pm

Time to shut down the FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, and all 4 branches of the military. Into the pit with Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and Social Security.

Bachman / Palin 2012!!!

701 horse  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:37:05pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

You're better than that, at many levels.

702 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:37:48pm

re: #695 quickjustice

Interesting-- I didn't address the Galloway remark to you.

Um lets look at your comments in full shall we?

#681 re: #677 Jimmah

So-- how are things in the East End, anyway? Been by St. Mary-le-Bow lately?

Immediately followed by:

#682 And your old friend Galloway? How's he doing?

LIAR!

703 horse  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:43:24pm

re: #172 iceweasel

You've got to be kidding. This has been nothing but a massive tantrum thrown by the Republicans.

They're committed to blocking all health care reform. They have to.

That's another reason why the Dems should realise the Repubs have no intention of voting for any proposal. At all.

Any links to support those bold claims? You are probably aware there are a number of links that would show your claims to be incorrect. I would love to read any substantive links with evidence the republicans to blocking all health care reform.

704 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:46:11pm

re: #691 quickjustice

To the Australians they're all bloody pommy bastards!

So- you're Australian. It's the only explanation as to why you'd know Australian terminology. ///

705 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:47:27pm

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Interesting question.

Does the Constitution permit the feds to require all workers to pay into Social Security?

What about the income tax?

I would suspect the answer will fall out in the same way as with those two.

Perhaps, but that misses a rather large point. Both the income tax and social security were implemented at a rate of one percent of income.
What grows around comes around.

706 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:48:08pm

re: #703 horse

Any links to support those bold claims? You are probably aware there are a number of links that would show your claims to be incorrect. I would love to read any substantive links with evidence the republicans to blocking all health care reform.

The Republicans don't have the votes to block [expletive deleted]. The Democrats can pass whatever they want, whenever they want to.

/the Democrats are just pissed that the Republicans won't give them any political cover and that, if they pass it, they'll have to own this piece of [expletive deleted] and reap the backlash of the American people

707 debutaunt  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:51:11pm

re: #670 Sharmuta

This is getting out of hand, and I'm surprised to see you as one of the people buying into this.

Buying into what?

708 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:51:32pm

re: #703 horse

Any links to support those bold claims? You are probably aware there are a number of links that would show your claims to be incorrect. I would love to read any substantive links with evidence the republicans to blocking all health care reform.

Look at the debate. Look at what's happening. Look at opinion pieces.

They don't want reform. They're attempting a replay of the Clinton strategy. That's why they're never going to vote for anything the Dems put together.

709 CapitalistTool  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:54:07pm

re: #262 calcajun

That reminds me. I need to set up a donation subscription at SarahPAC.

710 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:55:47pm

re: #708 iceweasel

Look at the debate. Look at what's happening. Look at opinion pieces.

They don't want reform. They're attempting a replay of the Clinton strategy. That's why they're never going to vote for anything the Dems put together.

And? They don't need any Republican votes.

/if the Democrats love their health care "reform" so much, why don't they quit whining about Republicans and just pass the damn thing?

711 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 4:57:38pm

re: #710 Killian Bundy

And? They don't need any Republican votes.

/if the Democrats love their health care "reform" so much, why don't they quit whining about Republicans and just pass the damn thing?

Yeah, i said upthread that the Dems need to just tell the Republicans to fuck off and go ahead. No concessions they make to the Repubs will be good enough, so they should ditch the Republicans.

Typical Dem behaviour though. A lot of people on the left are plenty angry with them, believe me.

712 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:00:44pm

re: #711 iceweasel

Yeah, i said upthread that the Dems need to just tell the Republicans to fuck off and go ahead. No concessions they make to the Repubs will be good enough, so they should ditch the Republicans.

Typical Dem behaviour though. A lot of people on the left are plenty angry with them, believe me.

Ain't bipartisanship a wonderful thing?

/that's what happen when the children are in charge

713 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:03:32pm

re: #712 pink freud

Ain't bipartisanship a wonderful thing?

/that's what happen when the children are in charge

No, it's what happens when the children are in the minority party and pitching a tantrum-- and the majority party is spineless and ineffectual.

Sorry to disappoint, but I don't go in for bashing only one party. Both have a lot of problems.

714 capitalist piglet  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:06:06pm

Weird. It seems to me the left in this country defined 'tantrum'.

715 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:06:25pm

re: #702 Jimmah

Heh. Just wanted to see who'd take the bait. That'd be you.

716 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:07:37pm

re: #704 Sharmuta

Heh.

717 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:07:45pm

Sorry, folks-- I've got plans. ;) Later!

718 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:09:37pm

re: #702 Jimmah

Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head

719 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:11:12pm

As usual, The proggie left are having a collective tantrum. They say they want debate, but they don't.

Re the: WHOLE FOODS BOYCOTT: “I’ll just make one observation: The liberal commentariat keeps telling us that we need to have a ’serious debate’ about reforming our dysfunctional health care system. Well, love ‘em or hate ‘em, Mackey came up with eight tangible ideas to do just that, and this is the reaction he gets.”

720 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:13:40pm

re: #719 FrogMarch

As usual, The proggie left are having a collective tantrum. They say they want debate, but they don't.

Behold -the progressive brain:

John Mackey is a right wing libertarian. [...]

He has just launched a campaign to defeat a single payer national health insurance system. [...]

This despite the bottom line reality that single payer is the only way to both control health care costs and cover everyone. [...]

And the problem with Mackey's campaign is that it results in the deaths of 60 Americans every day due to lack of health insurance.

Mackey is responsible for these deaths as much as anyone.

721 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:13:48pm

re: #719 FrogMarch

As usual, The proggie left are having a collective tantrum. They say they want debate, but they don't.

Not a peep about 0bama's first rendition, either.

722 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:15:55pm

re: #720 FrogMarch

Frog, you might enjoy this. It's Whittle's Tribes.

Explains a lot, and excellent writing.

723 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:16:32pm

re: #707 debutaunt

Buying into what?

Unsubstantiated rumors.

724 quickjustice  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:18:57pm

re: #711 iceweasel

The Democrats would love to have GOP political cover for the health reform plan that doesn't yet exist. The Democrats don't need a single GOP vote to pass this. All they have to do is get it to the floor and vote.

And then face the electorate!

Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head

725 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:21:28pm

re: #724 quickjustice

The Democrats would love to have GOP political cover for the health reform plan that doesn't yet exist. The Democrats don't need a single GOP vote to pass this. All they have to do is get it to the floor and vote.

And then face the electorate!

Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head

The ideology of the left is one of cowardice. Pointing fingers, laying blame, sniping like kids, failure to man up. This administration is the worst I've ever seen.

726 wee fury  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:27:15pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

I downdinged you. Your sentence was crass.

727 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:29:24pm

re: #715 quickjustice

Heh. Just wanted to see who'd take the bait. That'd be you.

Pathetic.

728 David Simon  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:44:12pm

Just finished reading this thread, and wow, there's a whole lot of misinformation. For a description of who is and who isn't covered by our wonderful Ponzi scheme Social Security system, here's a link to IRC Section 3121:

[Link: www.fldfs.com...]

729 David Simon  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:53:12pm

re: #720 FrogMarch

From your link:

"Do you really want your shopping dollars going to executives who are undermining President Obama?" One of them asked me (quoting from memory), "Are you aware that Whole Foods CEO John Mackey recently wrote an op-ed attacking national health care?"

I wonder if that twit knows that Mackey voluntarily refuses to take a salary. (How many CEO can make that claim?) While it's true that his net worth rises and falls in millions of dollars every trading day from the Whole Foods shares that he owns, Whole Foods consistently ranks as one of the best places to work by the top business publications. If Mackey were the avaricious prick that snatch seems to suggest that he is, I don't think either of the preceding facts would be true.

730 Syrah  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:56:49pm

They find a way to call it "voluntary" like they with our income taxes.

731 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 5:58:10pm

re: #726 wee fury

I downdinged you. Your sentence was crass.

I updinged you. Someone as challenged in reading comprehension as you needs encouragement to persevere.

732 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 6:02:39pm

re: #541 talon_262

Cato can't help getting even a sideways slam in on Sarah Palin, even if it means dragging her kids into it...it's an obsession with him, bordering on psychosis, IMNSHO.

Palin is the one who dragged Trig into the national discussion. I'll answer her lies and distortions and emotional hysterics shamelessly (ab)using the disability of her child any way I like.

Once you open the door, Sarah, don't be surprised if people come in, look around, and call you on your lousy housekeeping...

733 wee fury  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 6:05:04pm

re: #731 Cato the Elder

I updinged you. Someone as challenged in reading comprehension as you needs encouragement to persevere.


I appreciate your thoughtful consideration.

734 TGregg  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 6:09:12pm

Sure they can. Man, if they can extend eminent domain to mean taking from one guy and giving to another, if they can say that "provide for the welfare of the people" means taking money from groups they do not like and giving it to those they do, if they can say "the right of the of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" doesn't mean what it says, then heck yeah they can say that they have this power under the constitution. WTF is going to stop them?

735 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 6:22:28pm

re: #701 horse

You're better than that, at many levels.

I'm really not... ;^)

736 Sloppy  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 6:39:37pm

Reading this thread has been a distasteful experience. I'm going to bed.

737 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 7:15:50pm

re: #715 quickjustice

Heh. Just wanted to see who'd take the bait. That'd be you.

Pathetic and - oh yeah, you're a LIAR.

738 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 8:03:09pm

re: #722 pink freud

Frog, you might enjoy this. It's Whittle's Tribes.

Explains a lot, and excellent writing.

I'm sorry - I was called away.

Love Bill Whittle. He's fab.

739 pink freud  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 8:04:15pm

re: #738 FrogMarch

No prob, FrogMarch. I love Whittle too. Tribes is one of his best pieces of writing.

740 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 8:04:19pm

re: #729 David Simon

From your link:

"Do you really want your shopping dollars going to executives who are undermining President Obama?" One of them asked me (quoting from memory), "Are you aware that Whole Foods CEO John Mackey recently wrote an op-ed attacking national health care?"

I wonder if that twit knows that Mackey voluntarily refuses to take a salary. (How many CEO can make that claim?) While it's true that his net worth rises and falls in millions of dollars every trading day from the Whole Foods shares that he owns, Whole Foods consistently ranks as one of the best places to work by the top business publications. If Mackey were the avaricious prick that snatch seems to suggest that he is, I don't think either of the preceding facts would be true.

I know - I wonder how many brain cells these proggies actually have?

741 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 8:10:19pm

re: #739 pink freud

No prob, FrogMarch. I love Whittle too. Tribes is one of his best pieces of writing.

I didn't get a chance to read it tonight. But I think I many have read it a few years ago. (I will re-read anyway) His work for PJTV is fab too.

like this.

742 Capitalistincharge  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 8:28:09pm

I finally made it through the whole thread and I must say this is the one of the most disgusting I've seen in recent history. Funny how a couple of posters can stink the joint up with crassness and hatefulness. So very full of themselves. Twas a good opportunity to discuss a topic and learn much from members of the lizard community, however, it hasn't been able to get above the lowest common denominator. What a bunch of shit.

743 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 8:59:07pm

re: #719 FrogMarch

Re the: WHOLE FOODS BOYCOTT: “I’ll just make one observation: The liberal commentariat keeps telling us that we need to have a ’serious debate’ about reforming our dysfunctional health care system. Well, love ‘em or hate ‘em, Mackey came up with eight tangible ideas to do just that, and this is the reaction he gets.”

As usual, The proggie left are having a collective tantrum. They say they want debate, but they don't.

Actually, no. There's a lot to dislike about Mackay's proposals. Here are some:

Remove the legal obstacles that slow the creation of high-deductible health insurance plans and health savings accounts (HSAs).

In other words, what he wants is for employers to pay less and employees to pay more.


• Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover.

So, not only does he want employers to pay less, and employees to pay more, he thinks the insurance companies should be able to provide less.

Enact Medicare reform. We need to face up to the actuarial fact that Medicare is heading towards bankruptcy and enact reforms that create greater patient empowerment, choice and responsibility.

So, he says that employers should pay less, employees pay more, insurance companies provide less...and Grandma on medicare can pay more in order to receive less. Spotting a trend yet?

Health care is a service that we all need, but just like food and shelter it is best provided through voluntary and mutually beneficial market exchanges. A careful reading of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution will not reveal any intrinsic right to health care, food or shelter. That’s because there isn’t any. This “right” has never existed in America

Yeah, but we have the constitutional right to bear arms, so we can shoot ourselves in the head when we get sick and can't afford care.

744 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:05:13pm

re: #725 pink freud

The ideology of the left is one of cowardice. Pointing fingers, laying blame, sniping like kids, failure to man up. This administration is the worst I've ever seen.

This comment is an excellent example of what you claim to despise 'the left' for: pointing fingers, laying blame, sniping like kids, and failure to man up.

BTW, it's ridiculous to claim that 'the ideology of the left is one of cowardice'-- just as it would be ridiculous to characterise 'the ideology of the right' in a similarly sweeping fashion. Such generalisations serve no purpose other than to portray one side as all good and another as all evil.

Truth, as ever, is a lot more complicated than that.

745 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:12:04pm

re: #742 Capitalistincharge

I finally made it through the whole thread and I must say this is the one of the most disgusting I've seen in recent history. Funny how a couple of posters can stink the joint up with crassness and hatefulness. So very full of themselves. Twas a good opportunity to discuss a topic and learn much from members of the lizard community, however, it hasn't been able to get above the lowest common denominator. What a bunch of shit.

Don't worry, capitalistincharge - if you look up you'll see that Charles has now deleted most of lincolntf's really disgusting comments. Shame 'kansas' had to disgrace himself and the thread with that comment about the disabled kid from South Park as well though.

746 Pupdawg  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:13:56pm

Wish someone in the creek media would do a little investigation and writing about Obama's Czar crap.
Is it legal?

Is the President 'strong-arming' Chicago style the office with all these Czars?

Does it or rather do they circumvent the existing checks and balances within our system of government at the direction of Obama?

How much money do these Czars make?

What if any benefits do they have?

Are they actually in charge over Cabinet appointees and directly answerable to the President?

Surely, this cannot be legal / constitutional?

At this critical time in our history the nation needs real journalists more than ever and yet we get Obama fluff, puff and stuff stories from the MSM. The MSM has without as much as whimper obviously crumbled under the Svengali-esque Obama trance of state ownership, operation and control. The CM (Creek Media) needs to take the fumbled journalism ball and run with it as fast as they can and in every conceivable direction. They could score as often as they wished since this field is very fertile ground for true investigative scrutiny.

747 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:17:13pm

BTW-- I'll just mention here that of course many on the left are criticial of Obama for rendition. Here's one. Many are furious with him for his decisions in all areas involving civil liberties. He has chosen in every instance to continue or extend Bush policies and decisions.

The people who care about civil liberties are just as angry with him as they were with Bush.

In many ways Obama is considered worse: Bush/Cheney were at least open about their theories of executive power and their decisions involving civil liberties, whereas Obama says one thing and does another.

748 LoquaciousLady  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:17:15pm

re: #743 iceweasel

You are essentially being paid less money so that your employer will pay for your healthcare coverage (it is compensation that is being paid in services rather than currency). Once your employer pays for insurance (that you have very little control or how it is being spent) you then use the service with no thought as to the cost of the services. The services are overused/improperly used/not consumer driven. As a results of more use, the insurance companies have to increase premiums to pay for the increases in outflows of cash. Once the employer sees the healthcare premiums rise, they pass some of the increases to the employees. Who then are flabbergasted that the employer would ask them to pay for any of the increase. Still no one saves money by being costs conscious.

What if your employer gave you the 10-12k that they currently pay for your insurance? You could go out and buy a 12k gold-plated insurance plan if you choose, or a very low cost 4k premium high deductible insurance plan and put 5k into your HSA account to cover expenses during the year. Costs become controlled by consumers lack of desire to see their 5k being spent on frivolous services. Costs decrease and over time it costs less for everyone, even your 12k premiums may decrease.

I'm on an HSA plan and IMPRESSED with it.

749 LoquaciousLady  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:19:00pm

re: #748 LoquaciousLady

I forgot to add the 4k premium types are pocketing 3k. $$$

750 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:22:34pm

re: #748 LoquaciousLady


What if your employer gave you the 10-12k that they currently pay for your insurance? You could go out and buy a 12k gold-plated insurance plan if you choose, or a very low cost 4k premium high deductible insurance plan and put 5k into your HSA account to cover expenses during the year.

I'm glad you're happy with your plan, but your suggestion does nothing to extend coverage to the uninsured. Moreover, Mackey also suggests policies that would allow insurance companies to provide less-- and it isn't easy to to purchase health insurance privately to begin with. There's the issue of pre-existing conditions, for one.

751 mfarmer1  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:24:20pm

Well, the government found a way to tell us how many gallons our toilets may flush on each use, so I'm guessing that at least from a bureaucratic point of view, the average government cubicle dweller doesn't even understand the Constitutional objection to the "individual mandate" in the first place. Why should he? Look how far we've allowed all of this overreaching government nonsense to go with barely a fight over the past several decades. Now when someone objects to federal tax money paying for a skateboard park, that person is labeled a kook, a mental midget who doesn't understand sound economic principles.

Someone needs to finally figure out that temporal space-time thingee, and fast, and build a machine to bring Jefferson and Adams back to the future to set things right before it's too late.

752 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:26:11pm

re: #750 iceweasel

I'm glad you're happy with your plan, but your suggestion does nothing to extend coverage to the uninsured. Moreover, Mackey also suggests policies that would allow insurance companies to provide less-- and it isn't easy to to purchase health insurance privately to begin with. There's the issue of pre-existing conditions, for one.

So then deal with those issues rather than turn the entire industry topsy turvy.

753 LoquaciousLady  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:26:28pm

Ire: #750 iceweasel

I think we offer tax credits to those with proof of insurance on a sliding scale. Keep Medicare until we can think of something better.

I'd agree there should be some control over plans to prevent "pre-exisiting" conditions from being exluded. However, I do think that if your insurance is not tied to your employment, you portage it with you as you change jobs (no need to change insurance you change jobs.) Which decreases the chances you can be dropped if you are laid off or such.

754 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:30:45pm

re: #752 solomonpanting

So then deal with those issues rather than turn the entire industry topsy turvy.

The entire industry IS topsyturvey. They're trying to cover the uninsured and fix Medicare and Medicaid at the same time. There's a lot of stuff on the table.

We don't even know if we'll have a public option, or a co-op option instead, or how a co-op option would work...lot of things.

I'm just irritated by people who seem to be opposed to the whole notion of reform simplicitir, and particularly by those who don't seem to know what's actually being proposed and instead spread wild rumours like the death panel business.

(not saying you're doing any of that-- this is just my take).

755 LoquaciousLady  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:34:55pm

What I'm talking about is currently happening to the system. Small employers are turning to the HSA thing fast. I'd love to see a push in this direction faster, but hey, I'm just a plebe. I have no sway in the matter.

Another thing about HSAs. You can get a very low premium with a high deductible ($8000), save $5k a year. You are fully funded in two years. After spending $8000, 100% is covered. If you have something horrible happen in the first year, $8000 would not bankrupt you like having no plan will. (The average family has $8000 in credit card debt and is not bankrupt.)

756 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:36:26pm

re: #753 LoquaciousLady

There's a lot going on...for one thing, COBRA just isn't easy to afford. For another, right now you can't buy insurance across statelines or take it if you move (if you're an individual). The pre-existing conditions dodge is basically a scam that allows the companies to avoid paying or to deny coverage. For example, some even consider pregnancy a pre-existing condition.

We definitely need reform, and I think we need some kind of public option. What we'll wind up with though...who knows?

757 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:40:41pm

re: #755 LoquaciousLady

What I'm talking about is currently happening to the system. Small employers are turning to the HSA thing fast. I'd love to see a push in this direction faster, but hey, I'm just a plebe. I have no sway in the matter.

Yes, I know HSA's are really moving right now with small employers-- I'm not saying we should get rid of them, necessarily-- I don't know enough about the issues for small businesses -- but it does seem like they can't be the whole solution. I have no problem with them being part of it though.

758 LoquaciousLady  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:42:21pm

Cobra is what your employer pays! So, if your employer pays $1200/month on your insurance (that's 14.4k/year) and you are laid off, you pay it!!! Ta da!

What if your employer paid you $1200/month more now, just so your employer could get out of the business of buying healthcare (which I gather is not their main raison d'etre). Then you get smart and buy a plan that costs $400/month. You have been banking $800/month while you were employed. You have money in your HSA to cover premiums for a few months, you have money in your HSA to cover incidentals. You already have $500/month in your budget you know about if you are laid off that you compensate for.

P.S. Obama is big into getting rid of HSAs.

759 LoquaciousLady  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:43:53pm

re: #758 LoquaciousLady

Oops, I meant $400/month in your budget. I'm new to this whole lizard thing.

760 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:44:42pm

re: #758 LoquaciousLady


Obama is big into getting rid of HSAs.

I don't know enough about the HSA issue to have an informed opinion on whether that's a good thing-- but the point remains that more HSA's isn't sufficient for reform, especially as that does nothing about covering the uninsured-- which is the main point of the reform.

761 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:47:35pm

re: #759 LoquaciousLady

Oops, I meant $400/month in your budget. I'm new to this whole lizard thing.

That's cool. Welcome! :)

762 LoquaciousLady  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:48:25pm

re: #760 iceweasel

Um, I think I mentioned tax-credits (maybe I should be more specific -- like "Earned Income Tax Credits") for proof of insurance on a sliding income scale. (e.g. If you earn poverty level you get $8000/year credits which can go to any type of insurance desired. Which could be used to fund HSA savings/premiums or more traditional type insurance.)

763 LoquaciousLady  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:50:18pm

I do think we need to care for those less fortunate, but I think we need to be smarter by empowering them to make the best decisions they can for their families. Handout insurance could be a disaster for them if it ends up being "second-class".

764 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:55:53pm

re: #745 Jimmah

Hello Jimmah. ;)
Wondered if you'd ever seen this? I thought you'd like it. This thread reminded me of it.

Youtube Video
765 gnargtharst  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:03:45pm

If Washington politicians start doing only what is constitutional, 90% of that city'll have to pack up and leave.

...Veering only slightly off topic, a great town hall meeting clip:

Youtube Video
766 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:22:07pm

re: #724 quickjustice

The Democrats would love to have GOP political cover for the health reform plan that doesn't yet exist. The Democrats don't need a single GOP vote to pass this. All they have to do is get it to the floor and vote.

And then face the electorate!

Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head

Sure, some of the impetus for 'bipartisanship' is about ass-covering. But it's also true that not every Dem is behind the bill. The Blue Dogs, for example-- lots are more interested in being re-elected and maintaining control at all costs.
Finally, let's not forget that there's a lot of resistance to reform on both sides because the insurance companies and pharma companies are big contributors and both sides are beholden to them. Look at the deal Obama is cutting with the pharma co's for example!

Last of all- I find your repeated comment of

"Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head"


in this thread, directed at me and Jimmah, to be a bit...odd. It made sense the first time in the context of posting the text to the Bells of St Clements---I guess. Even though those lines are usually dropped from it.

767 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:40:48pm

re: #764 iceweasel

Hello Jimmah. ;)
Wondered if you'd ever seen this? I thought you'd like it. This thread reminded me of it.

Hi iceweasel! Very clever video :) I got something here you might enjoy - it's jam packed with good ol' conservative values:

Youtube Video
768 jaunte  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:40:53pm

"Waiting, are they? Waiting, are they? Well, goddam 'em, let 'em wait!"

--Ethan Allen, to his physician who said
"General, I fear the angels are waiting for you"

769 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:57:25pm

re: #767 Jimmah

Hi iceweasel! Very clever video :) I got something here you might enjoy - it's jam packed with good ol' conservative values:


Brilliant. ;) My new favourite.

Here's something for you:

Image: dinnere.jpg

770 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:03:06pm

re: #769 iceweasel

Brilliant. ;) My new favourite.

Here's something for you:

[Link: img89.imageshack.us...]

Heh. Excellent. Here's another ina similar vein:

Youtube Video
771 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:09:51pm

The perils of socialism:

Youtube Video
772 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:11:25pm

re: #770 Jimmah

Heh. Excellent. Here's another ina similar vein:

LOVE IT!

This one I saw somewhere once...I think it was on PZ Myers' site. These are wonderful! I kind of love the whole genre--whatever I should call it, 'fake public service announcement on crappy filmstrip". lol.
I also love the real ones. There's a whole cult thing of DVD's and so on that contain nothing but compilations of them.

773 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:16:19pm

re: #771 Jimmah

The perils of socialism:



In hysterics!

Hey, I think there's an American remake of this by the GOP: "L is for LIEBRAL!"

Sigh. The american remakes are almost never as good.

774 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:19:34pm

Lice do live off a host.

775 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:25:20pm

re: #774 solomonpanting

Lice do live off a host.

Comparing one's political opponents, or one's political 'enemy', to vermin has a long and ugly history. It usually ties in with eliminationist tendencies.

776 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:28:17pm

re: #775 iceweasel

Comparing one's political opponents, or one's political 'enemy', to vermin has a long and ugly history. It usually ties in with eliminationist tendencies.

How about if the comparison is with one's ideas and theories, rather than its sponsors?

777 zombie  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:30:33pm

Interesting Washington Post article! It basically spells out ahead of the arguments in the lawsuit that will be filed to revoke the health care bill if it passes.

I especialy found this paragraph noteworthy:

This leaves mandate supporters with few palatable options. Congress could attempt to condition some federal benefit on the acquisition of insurance. States, for example, usually condition issuance of a car registration on proof of automobile insurance, or on a sizable payment into an uninsured motorist fund. Even this, however, cannot achieve universal health coverage. No federal program or entitlement applies to the entire population, and it is difficult to conceive of a "benefit" that some part of the population would not choose to eschew.

I'm in that categroy. I do not now, nor have I never, received any kind of governmental "benefit" or entitlement. I've never gotten unemployment benefits, tax refunds, welfare, food stamps, medicare, medicaid, Social Security, or anything at all along those lines. In fact, the U.S. government has never contacted me or communicated with me even once at any time in my life. The only evidence I have that the U.S. government exists is that when I mail in my 1040 forms, they aren't returned to me unopened with a "No such address" stamp. So somebody's opening their mail!

Anyway, they'd have a hell of a hard time "penalizing" me by withholding some benefits from me, since they don't give me any benefits in the first place.

778 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:33:27pm

re: #776 solomonpanting

How about if the comparison is with one's ideas and theories, rather than its sponsors?

I think it might be better to make an argument about why you don't like the ideas and theories, rather than using perjoratives.

Especially terms which have a long and well-documented use in political rhetoric as a justification for or incitement to genocide, antisemitism, and fascism.

This isn't restricted to the Nazis, btw. Radio Rwanda used similar terms about the Tutsi to encourage their extermination by the Hutu.

779 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:35:25pm

re: #778 iceweasel

I think it might be better to make an argument about why you don't like the ideas and theories, rather than using perjoratives.

'Taint much regarding socialism that I can laud.

780 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:38:51pm

re: #779 solomonpanting

'Taint much regarding socialism that I can laud.

There's probably several different stops on the continuum between 'lauding' and calling socialists 'lice'.
Or so I'd think.

781 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:40:40pm

re: #780 iceweasel

There's probably several different stops on the continuum between 'lauding' and calling socialists 'lice'.
Or so I'd think.

For the last time, I refer to socialism, not socialists...

782 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:42:37pm

re: #776 solomonpanting

How about if the comparison is with one's ideas and theories, rather than its sponsors?

You mean for example "L is for Labour, L is for Lice"? Are you sure you want to raise the standard of conservarive rhetoric to that level?/

783 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:44:26pm

re: #782 Jimmah

You mean for example "L is for Labour, L is for Lice"? Are you sure you want to raise the standard of conservarive rhetoric to that level?/


See #781.

784 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:45:35pm

re: #781 solomonpanting

For the last time, I refer to socialism, not socialists...

Point stands.
An argument can be made about ideas, policy, or ideology while eschewing language like that, and given the historical usage of such language it's pretty loaded language, IMO.

Any argument one has can only be only strengthened by eschewing it. IMO.

785 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:47:15pm

re: #783 solomonpanting

See #781.

I've seen 781 and it doesn't make any difference. The sentiment expressed there is entirely consistent with the slogan "L is for Labour, L is for Lice".

786 Millicent Islam  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:51:50pm

re: #785 Jimmah

Time for a south park interlude!

Youtube Video
787 solomonpanting  Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:52:03pm

re: #785 Jimmah

I've seen 781 and it doesn't make any difference

Oh, in that case I refute all past positions.

Without freedom of speech I might be in the swamp.

788 Aye Pod  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 12:07:07am

re: #787 solomonpanting

Oh, in that case I refute all past positions.

?


Without freedom of speech I might be in the swamp.

Do you feel that your freedom of speech is being threatened now? lol

789 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 12:10:03am

re: #787 solomonpanting

Oh, in that case I refute all past positions.

Without freedom of speech I might be in the swamp.

I've no idea what you're on about. Who's taken away or threatened your freedom of speech? What swamp? Because someone points out the very loaded history of the word 'lice' and similar terms, now you're Bruce Springsteen?

Youtube Video


My points were slashed and I almost crashed
but the Lord had mercy
My argument's a dud, I'm stuck in the mud
somewhere in the swamps of Jersey

"In that case I refute all past positions!" sounds like "I'm taking my toys and going home!"

Seriously, if you want to have a debate on socialism i think Jimmah and I are up for that. Or a debate on whether Dems are socialists (they are not).
Not trying to be mean here, but you took offense at a humourous video and now you seem huffy for no good reason.

790 Aye Pod  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 12:27:51am

re: #789 iceweasel

Youtube Video
791 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 12:37:47am

re: #790 Jimmah

I'm saving that one Jimmah. Think it could come in handy. ;)

Think we're at ORANGE level now, lol.

792 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 12:39:30am

re: #788 Jimmah

Do you feel that your freedom of speech is being threatened now? lol

Actually, I was referring to your opinion

I've seen 781 and it doesn't make any difference

re: #789 iceweasel

I've no idea what you're on about. Who's taken away or threatened your freedom of speech? What swamp? Because someone points out the very loaded history of the word 'lice' and similar terms, now you're Bruce Springsteen?

Actually, I was referring to Jimmah's opinion.
Actually, it's Dylan, not Bruce.

793 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 12:53:02am

re: #792 solomonpanting

Actually, I was referring to Jimmah's opinion.
Actually, it's Dylan, not Bruce.

I'd no idea you were making a musical reference at all! But we can do Dylan!

Jimmah's in the basement, mixing up the medicine--
I'm on the pavement, talkin' bout the goverment...

Youtube Video

Btw, the real lyrics will work for the current US health care system!


the man in the trenchcoat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It's somethin' you did
God knows when
But you're doin' it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin' for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten

794 Aye Pod  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 12:59:12am

re: #793 iceweasel

But iceweasel - Don't you know? Dylan was true conservative - after all, didn't he write that song - "The Times They Are A-Changin' Back"?/

795 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:04:55am

re: #794 Jimmah

But iceweasel - Don't you know? Dylan was true conservative - after all, didn't he write that song - "The Times They Are A-Changin' Back"?/

That movie only gets better and better. Time to watch it again!

Has this turned up on Glenn Beck yet?

I want to live!

796 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:09:27am

Here's a general mashup of some of the highlights-- I swear that movie has only become more timely. I love it.

Youtube Video
797 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:18:20am

Also, preview is great!

Youtube Video
798 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:22:31am

Also, just can't stop-- found more!

Youtube Video

This is awesome. This one right here. ;)

799 Aye Pod  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:33:15am

re: #798 iceweasel

Also, just can't stop-- found more!


This is awesome. This one right here. ;)

Now here is a man who has adopted the persona and mindset of a free thinking rebel and turned it on itself. The rebel conservative. Now that is devious brilliance.

Yep I-dub, it is amazing how relevant this movie is today.

800 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:35:22am

BTW, my band used to do a semi-cover of Woody Guthrie doing "this land is your land", incorporating some of the parody lyrics:

Start out with the original, all sweet and folky:

This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walking a ribbon of highway
I saw above me an endless skyway
I saw below me a golden valley
This land was made for you and me

(massive chord and tempo changes here:)


This land is my land, it ain't your land
I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one
If you don't get off, I'll blow your head off
This land was made for only me.

We did have another verse as well but it was rather obscene.

here's a version from Obama's inauguration:

Youtube Video
801 Aye Pod  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:50:56am

re: #800 iceweasel


(massive chord and tempo changes here:)


This land is my land, it ain't your land
I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one
If you don't get off, I'll blow your head off
This land was made for only me.

You quite literally rock, iceweasel :)

802 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:55:58am

re: #801 Jimmah

You quite literally rock, iceweasel :)

Heh. The transition from sweet acoustic jangly folky version to screaming punk-ish version was fun!

this is kind of cool, it's a better version of what people grow up singing:

Youtube Video

Note that it includes the verses almost always left out:

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no trespassin'
But on the other side ... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
If this land's still made for you and me.

Another reason why it's funny Bob Roberts does a version. :- )

803 Millicent Islam  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 1:57:38am

re: #802 iceweasel

Shoot, wrong link:

Youtube Video

sorry!

804 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 3:34:20am

Should people be forced to pay car insurance if they want to drive?
Should people have to pay taxes for public schools if they don't have kids?
Should I have to pay for roads if I walk everywhere?

The first question is an example of mandatory insurance, while the latter are examples of mandatory transfers of wealth for the public good. I'd like to know why a mandatory public health tax is not comparable to these.

805 gnargtharst  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 8:57:19am

re: #804 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

"Should people be forced to pay car insurance if they want to drive?"
No

"Should people have to pay taxes for public schools if they don't have kids?"
No

"Should I have to pay for roads if I walk everywhere?"
No

"... I'd like to know why a mandatory public health tax is not comparable to these."
Such would be exactly comparable to those.

806 Gretchen  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 9:46:28am

The Democrats now claim health care is a right, therefore taxpayers must pay for all citizens' healthcare. No such explicit right is granted in the Constitution or the amendments. However, the second admendment grants the right to bear arms. Ask your lefty friends if a tax payer purchased gun should be provided to every American who can't afford to purchase one. After all, don't we all have the right to be safe, control our own safety (like bodies in the abortion debate) regardless of the ability to pay.

BTW - I'm not a gun owner or fan, but respect the right of American's to own firearms.

807 zelnaga  Sun, Aug 23, 2009 10:12:50am

To quote from this article:

But the big difference is mandates: the Clinton plan requires that everyone have insurance; the Obama plan doesn’t.


Has Obama abandoned the plan he proposed during the primaries in favor of Clinton's plans?

808 Krogenar  Mon, Aug 24, 2009 9:14:40am

re: #38 Cato the Elder

To expand the question: What if I declare that I want no S.S. payments or benefits in the future in favor of keeping my money now? Can I opt out? Would I have a constitutional argument for doing so?

I would say the answer is 'No' -- the way these large-scale government monopolies work is such that they cannot allow anyone to opt-out of their program because they would have no one left to extort.

If you want to stop ObamaCare, it's easy, just demand that there be an opt-out rule. But the Dems would never allow it because a 'public option' would never work without someone to exploit (healthy people forced by law to buy health insurance).

So let's imagine a 'public option' that is only funded by the people who join it (no tax revenue put towards it) and anyone can opt-in or -out at any time. I'd be fine with that situation because I know that a company run by government employees operating in a free market (no government support via tax revenues) would not survive long.

A 'public option' that was not ultimately mandatory would fail because the 'haves' would abandon the program, leaving it populated only by 'have nots'.

809 Krogenar  Mon, Aug 24, 2009 9:52:25am

re: #806 Gretchen

Ask your lefty friends if a tax payer purchased gun should be provided to every American who can't afford to purchase one. After all, don't we all have the right to be safe, control our own safety (like bodies in the abortion debate) regardless of the ability to pay.

I just got my 'public option' potato gun in the mail.

810 curtain of oz  Tue, Aug 25, 2009 10:29:16am

re: #805 gnargtharst

All those items you mentioned are controlled by the states. Not the federal gov't.


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