‘Irreducible Complexity’ Shot Down in Flames

Science • Views: 5,045

New research into mitochondria provides a devastating refutation of one of the main talking points of Michael Behe and the Discovery Institute neo-creationists, as “irreducible complexity” turns out to be very reducible.

Intricate cellular components are often cited as evidence of intelligent design. They couldn’t have evolved, I.D. proponents say, because they can’t be broken down into smaller, simpler functional parts. They are irreducibly complex, so they must have been intentionally designed, as is, by an intelligent entity.

But new research comparing mitochondria, which provide energy to animal cells, with their bacterial relatives, shows that the necessary pieces for one particular cellular machine — exactly the sort of structure that’s supposed to prove intelligent design — were lying around long ago. It was simply a matter of time before they came together into a more complex entity.

The pieces “were involved in some other, different function. They were recruited and acquired a new function,” said Sebastian Poggio, a postdoctoral cell biologist at Yale University and co-author of the study published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

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880 comments
1 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:15:27pm
The pieces “were involved in some other, different function. They were recruited and acquired a new function,”

Which is exactly what evolution would say happened. Once again, evolution was put to the test and won.

2 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:15:37pm

Oh, boy more esplody heads on this thread.

/grabs popcorn

3 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:15:53pm

Don't worry, Charles.
They'll wedge something else into the gap which this leaves.

4 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:15:57pm

Hurray! An evolution thread is the perfect thing to unite the lizard army. We'll use this thread to lure in some creationist trolls. Then we'll grill 'em and bond over dinner. Thank you, Charles. I'll go get the charcoal.

5 Erik The Red  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:16:05pm

Alright a ID thread. Now we can all get along. :))

6 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:16:27pm

re: #2 BlueCanuck

Oh, boy more esplody heads on this thread.

/grabs popcorn

Just when you thought it was safe to stick your head up.

7 sngnsgt  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:16:27pm

re: #2 BlueCanuck

/passes the salt

8 Erik The Red  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:16:49pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

Hurray! An evolution thread is the perfect thing to unite the lizard army. We'll use this thread to lure in some creationist trolls. Then we'll grill 'em and bond over dinner. Thank you, Charles. I'll go get the charcoal.

Cold beer on me.

9 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:17:11pm

re: #6 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Just when you thought it was safe to stick your head up.

Yeah, I know. Good thing I can groove with this thread.

10 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:17:30pm

re: #8 Erik The Red

Cold beer on me.

What side dishes would you like?

11 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:18:44pm

Ah, but whatof the Midichlorians!?!?

12 Erik The Red  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:18:58pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

What side dishes would you like?

Cold brains with mayo. Bone marrow on toast is also great.

13 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:19:03pm

Beck thread followed by an ID thread. It's the classic flush-'em-out combo.

I'm gonna go read the Wired article quickly, so I can make some popcorn and get back here before the head explosion grand finale. It looks quite interesting.

14 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:20:39pm

re: #11 haakondahl

Ah, but whatof the Midichlorians!?!?

"Stay on Target!"

15 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:20:53pm

One thing we'll never see on one of these evolution threads is an irreducibly complex flounce.

16 VioletTiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:21:09pm

re: #8 Erik The Red

Cold beer on me.


I'm making some zucchini bread. We'll have that for dessert.

BBIB

17 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:21:48pm

re: #15 pre-Boomer Marine brat

One thing we'll never see on one of these evolution threads is an irreducibly complex flounce.

Well most flounces are rather simple. Every now and again you get a ten for style.

18 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:22:02pm

re: #12 Erik The Red

Cold brains with mayo. Bone marrow on toast is also great.

I'll go put the bread in the toaster. Will English Nuffins be OK?

19 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:22:43pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

"Stay on Target!"

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

20 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:22:47pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

"Stay on Target!"

[goggles down]
I'm going in!

21 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:22:54pm

Mitochondria is also used to identify species via Mitochondria DNA:

Unlike nuclear DNA, which is inherited from both parents and in which genes are rearranged in the process of recombination, there is usually no change in mtDNA from parent to offspring. Although mtDNA also recombines, it does so with copies of itself within the same mitochondrion. Because of this and because the mutation rate of animal mtDNA is higher than that of nuclear DNA,[17] mtDNA is a powerful tool for tracking ancestry through females (matrilineage) and has been used in this role to track the ancestry of many species back hundreds of generations.

Fascinating.

22 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:23:04pm
Mitochondria are descended from free-living bacteria, which several billion years ago were swallowed by complex cells. The mitochondria soon became central to the cells’ function.


Freaky.

23 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:23:21pm

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

I'll go put the bread in the toaster. Will English Muffins be OK?

PIMF

24 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:23:24pm

re: #17 BlueCanuck

Well most flounces are rather simple. Every now and again you get a ten for style.

LOL!

25 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:24:07pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Adapt or die!

26 Erik The Red  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:24:34pm

re: #17 BlueCanuck

Well most flounces are rather simple. Every now and again you get a ten for style.

NYN did a 9 the other night.

27 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:24:58pm

re: #19 experiencedtraveller

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Then you'll really find this disturbing...

[Dark_Falcon launches proton torpedoes down experiencedtraveller's throat]

28 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:25:22pm

re: #17 BlueCanuck

Well most flounces are rather simple. Every now and again you get a ten for style.

How does one learn how to do that?
Is there a Cliff Notes for lemmings?

29 Danny  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:25:37pm

"Simply Irreducible"...

Robert Palmer rocks!

30 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:25:40pm
31 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:25:46pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

One of the tools they have used to find how long ago the first human female lived. Also makes sense where different cultures passed tribal attachment through the mother.

32 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:26:10pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Freaky.

Indeed. Humans are just gigantic bio-exoskeletons for mitochondria to fight each other.

33 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:26:18pm

re: #28 pre-Boomer Marine brat

How does one learn how to do that?
Is there a Cliff Notes for lemmings?

You need a double take for that one. :)

34 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:26:19pm

For the creationist on your X-mas list: Grow-a-Nanoraptor

Lab technicians have capped Grow-a-Nanoraptor's height trajectory at 2 feet, making it safe and manageable for kids. Dangle a cat toy in front of its serrated teeth for maximal fun.

35 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:26:21pm

re: #26 Erik The Red

NYN did a 9 the other night.

Who?!?!

36 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:26:28pm

re: #26 Erik The Red

NYN did a 9 the other night.

I'd agree, but I maintain that what she did was not a flounce. She did not insult or belittle Charles. She simply stated her opinion that he was wrong and politely took her leave.

37 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:26:40pm

There's nothing more boring than announcing to the world that you're bored.

38 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:26:57pm

It's starting already! A dual-thread simultaneous meltdown event (DTSME)!

39 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:27:02pm

re: #26 Erik The Red

NYN did a 9 the other night.

Nana?

40 BigJohn  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:28:09pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

That's like from Star Wars, right?

41 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:28:37pm

It's a meltfest!

42 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:28:43pm

re: #37 Charles

There's nothing more boring than announcing to the world that you're bored.

High meta-bore-ism.

43 Erik The Red  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:29:02pm

re: #35 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Who?!?!

NY Nana.

44 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:29:12pm

re: #41 Charles

It's a meltfest!

A meltapalooza!

45 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:29:21pm

re: #41 Charles

It's a meltfest!

Are you saying you created a fondue thread event?

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:29:46pm

re: #43 Erik The Red

NY Nana.

Ouch.
I was afraid that was who you meant.

47 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:30:09pm

One of the problems with these 'irreducible complexity' arguments is that they attempt to draw an ontological conclusions from epistemological premises-- that is, they move from arguing "We can't understand X" to "Therefore, X is (such and such)".

Bad idea. Failure to understand how X works is never a sufficient reason for drawing a conclusion about X's nature.

The vast majority of the 'arguments' for ID are one form or another of this basic mistake: arguing from present lack of understanding, to positing a supernatural explanation.

48 Danny  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:30:25pm

re: #44 Last Mohican

A meltapalooza!

Meltacular!

49 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:30:40pm

Wasn't irreducible complexity shot down already when some scientist proved that various parts of flagella have different functions when not being used as an outboard motor for a cell?

50 Dustoff-507  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:31:08pm

...

51 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:31:23pm

Grand Poobah has just gotten booted on the previous thread. I'm lighting the charcoal now. The first roast troll of the evening will be served in about 45 minutes. As always, Charles gets the first portion.

52 BigJohn  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:31:47pm

re: #49 ArchangelMichael

Wasn't irreducible complexity shot down already when some scientist proved that various parts of flagella have different functions when not being used as an outboard motor for a cell?

Huh, Huh. He said Flagella.

53 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:32:01pm

re: #49 ArchangelMichael

Wasn't irreducible complexity shot down already when some scientist proved that various parts of flagella have different functions when not being used as an outboard motor for a cell?

Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto, you're beautiful!

54 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:32:10pm

re: #45 BlueCanuck

Are you saying you created a fondue thread event?

OMG, a fond-a-ue thread.
Now we will CERTAINLY get along.

/except that it sounds cheesey

55 sngnsgt  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:32:19pm

re: #50 Dustoff-507

...

,,,

56 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:33:07pm

Oh, for Pete's sake.

57 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:33:44pm

re: #47 iceweasel

One of the problems with these 'irreducible complexity' arguments is that they attempt to draw an ontological conclusions from epistemological premises-- that is, they move from arguing "We can't understand X" to "Therefore, X is (such and such)".

Bad idea. Failure to understand how X works is never a sufficient reason for drawing a conclusion about X's nature.

The vast majority of the 'arguments' for ID are one form or another of this basic mistake: arguing from present lack of understanding, to positing a supernatural explanation.

Because they're not interested in figuring out how X works, but rather they want to prove their agenda is the truth. It doesn't matter if the Truth and how X works can co-exist- they've closed their mind to how anything can be other than their preconceived religious notions.

58 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:33:57pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

Oh good. I see no one has put any quatloos on this thread meltdown. I call 500 on comment #450. Most creationist morons have been bounced already so that's why so high.

59 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:34:36pm

re: #49 ArchangelMichael

Wasn't irreducible complexity shot down already when some scientist proved that various parts of flagella have different functions when not being used as an outboard motor for a cell?

Well- yes, but when has being proven wrong stopped creationists from carrying on?

60 esch  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:34:44pm

mmm...sake.

I could go for some Sake right now

61 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:35:02pm

re: #37 Charles

There's nothing more boring than announcing to the world that you're bored.

I think I liked the picture of the mean lizard better... just saying.

62 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:35:06pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

The first roast troll of the evening will be served in about 45 minutes.

Do you use rosemary? Or, are you going for the heavier, bay leaf approach?

63 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:35:52pm

re: #47 iceweasel

One of the problems with these 'irreducible complexity' arguments is that they attempt to draw an ontological conclusions from epistemological premises-- that is, they move from arguing "We can't understand X" to "Therefore, X is (such and such)".

Bad idea. Failure to understand how X works is never a sufficient reason for drawing a conclusion about X's nature.

The vast majority of the 'arguments' for ID are one form or another of this basic mistake: arguing from present lack of understanding, to positing a supernatural explanation.

Of course, you could say that this is the basis for religion as a whole, and so the flaw would naturally be repeated in the minor case. You could very well say that. I, of course, could not possibly say such a thing.

64 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:36:07pm

Wow, is that four meltdowns in the last thread so far, and one in this one?

How am I suppose to read a complex article about mitochondrial DNA inheritance with all these explosions going on everywhere? Not to mention Lily Allen's song "Fuck You" playing in the background ("music to flounce by"), which is turning out to be very distracting.

65 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:36:28pm

re: #62 freetoken

I find that Zatar works wonders. It provides a wonderfully Mediterranean/Middle Eastern flavor that cuts troll meat delicately and yet firmly.

Oh, and I give it to post 110 - that's the over under.

66 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:37:11pm

Another monumental failure for the argument from ignorance: "I do not understand X therefore X cannot be."

67 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:37:11pm

re: #62 freetoken

Do you use rosemary? Or, are you going for the heavier, bay leaf approach?

I like rosemary, so I'll try that. Troll is mostly white meat. so I think it'll work better with a lighter approach.

68 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:37:14pm

re: #57 Sharmuta

Because they're not interested in figuring out how X works, but rather they want to prove their agenda is the truth. It doesn't matter if the Truth and how X works can co-exist- they've closed their mind to how anything can be other than their preconceived religious notions.

That's certainly true of the theocratic ones. They are heavily invested in promoting their agenda and will lie, distort, or misrepresent the science to get their desired result. PZ Myers at Pharyngula is absolutely brilliant at exposing those hacks.
And some of them simply don't understand the science, and don't understand the point that I made, so they think it makes sense to argue from "we don't understand x" to "only god can explain x" (or similar).

69 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:37:20pm

re: #64 Last Mohican

Wow, is that four meltdowns in the last thread so far, and one in this one?

There's something melty in the air tonight.

70 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:37:31pm

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

Then you'll really find this disturbing...

[Dark_Falcon launches proton torpedoes down experiencedtraveller's throat]

Since proton torpedo's are made in all sizes, including miniature, I am not sure one 'down the throat' would be entirely dissapointing. In fact, given its energy dynamic it make be akin to a flaming shot of tequila.

/But yes. Disturbing.

71 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:37:49pm

re: #64 Last Mohican

Wow, is that four meltdowns in the last thread so far, and one in this one?

How am I suppose to read a complex article about mitochondrial DNA inheritance with all these explosions going on everywhere? Not to mention Lily Allen's song "Fuck You" playing in the background ("music to flounce by"), which is turning out to be very distracting.

Love Lily Allen. Low battery. Flip side, yo!

72 jaunte  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:38:15pm

re: #57 Sharmuta

..they've closed their mind to how anything can be other than their preconceived ... notions.

AKA the human condition. We must all struggle with that.

73 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:38:38pm

MY recipe for grilled troll is irreducibly complex! First . . . catch one troll.

74 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:38:38pm

Betting against hard science once all of the evidence has created a consensus is usually a very dangerous move.

75 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:38:51pm

re: #69 Charles

There's something melty in the air tonight.

Have we been seeing Velveeta ads on the sidebar or somethin'?

76 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:39:39pm

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

Then you'll really find this disturbing...

[Dark_Falcon launches proton torpedoes down experiencedtraveller's throat]

Protein torpedo? EWWW!

77 esch  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:39:44pm

re: #63 haakondahl

Of course, you could say that this is the basis for religion as a whole, and so the flaw would naturally be repeated in the minor case. You could very well say that. I, of course, could not possibly say such a thing.

When people have asked me what I think about faith versus science, I answer "Faith's role is to provide workable rules of thumb to cover things we don't understand scientifically, YET. Once we do, faith needs to concede the argument."

ID is a perfect example of why.

78 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:39:48pm

re: #63 haakondahl

Of course, you could say that this is the basis for religion as a whole, and so the flaw would naturally be repeated in the minor case. You could very well say that. I, of course, could not possibly say such a thing.

I could, but I wouldn't. People who believe in God usually have some reason other than "there are things I don't understand, therefore god!". They'll point to other evidence, like faith or religious experience, or make other positive arguments for god's existence.
I, of course, would reject those arguments-- but they're not ones that are guilty of making the error I pointed out.

Hey haak. :) How are you?

79 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:39:49pm

re: #41 Charles

It's a meltfest!

Well that isn't so boring...

80 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:39:54pm

Religion does not disprove science, and science does not disprove religion.

Did I get that right?

81 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:40:04pm

re: #73 quickjustice

MY recipe for grilled troll is irreducibly complex! First . . . catch one troll.

Around here it's not that complex. They lurk all over the place just waiting to trap unwary posters in various threads.

82 itellu3times  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:40:18pm

Kewl.

I believe the term is "neutral variation", not "neutral evolution", but whatever.

Yeah, it is a little freaky, that our big cells have these little cells going on inside. But then, a fair amount of our DNA is old viruses that got in and either proved useful, or were just deactivated without being removed. It's a battle down there at the micro level, and very crufty.

83 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:40:22pm

re: #77 esch

When people have asked me what I think about faith versus science, I answer "Faith's role is to provide workable rules of thumb to cover things we don't understand scientifically, YET. Once we do, faith needs to concede the argument."

ID is a perfect example of why.

Brilliant. Well said.

84 esch  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:40:46pm

re: #69 Charles

There's something melty in the air tonight.

Smells like harsh-mellows.

Oh, that's just my hippie neighbors.

85 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:40:55pm

re: #80 quickjustice

Religion does not disprove science, and science does not disprove religion.

Did I get that right?

I would wholeheartedly agree with that. Science only disproves narrow interpretations of religion - at least if you are talking Genesis.

86 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:41:02pm

re: #73 quickjustice

MY recipe for grilled troll is irreducibly complex! First . . . catch one troll.

A troll-roast is a complex exercise in ire-reducibility.

87 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:41:04pm

re: #49 ArchangelMichael

Wasn't irreducible complexity shot down already when some scientist proved that various parts of flagella have different functions when not being used as an outboard motor for a cell?

Time and time again this argument gets slapped down (well each individual argument).

Behe is searching for possible ways to disprove evolution, which is fine, but since he came up with the term "irreducible complexity" he only sees one tool in his tool box. He's put all his money in the pot and won't back away.

All of this just makes for a stronger case for evolution, never weaker.

I choose to see Behe as the hero of biology grad students everywhere -- He opens the door for papers to make their bones.

88 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:41:05pm

re: #76 haakondahl

Protein torpedo? EWWW!

SMACK!

89 esch  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:41:31pm

re: #83 iceweasel

TY ice.

90 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:41:33pm

Richard Dawkins, Brian Eno and the art of evolution

[Link: timesonline.typepad.com...]

91 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:42:26pm
92 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:42:50pm

re: #66 Jimmah

Another monumental failure for the argument from ignorance: "I do not understand X therefore X cannot be."

Yes! Exactly! Nailing my point in far fewer words! ;)

93 The Curmudgeon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:43:15pm

Damn you, Charles! How did you scoop me on this? I won't have time to blog it until tomorrow.

94 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:43:18pm

re: #72 jaunte


..they've closed their mind to how anything can be other than their preconceived ... notions.

AKA the human condition. We must all struggle with that.

Some do better at opening their minds than others.

95 Danny  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:43:18pm

re: #91 MandyManners

Mandy...you effin' rock!

96 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:43:24pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

I like rosemary, so I'll try that. Troll is mostly white meat. so I think it'll work better with a lighter approach.


Make sure you put enough garlic on it. Keeps the werewolves away.

97 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:43:57pm

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote

Genesis is a fascinating book. It's really a compendium of several different creation stories that probably evolved (if you'll excuse the choice of words) over millenia as oral traditions before they were collected and written down.

98 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:44:00pm

re: #69 Charles

There's something melty in the air tonight.

Several high temp records were broken today, down here:

[Link: www.wrh.noaa.gov...]

Must be due to global warming (oops... my bad.)

/troll behavior is irreducibly complex to me.

99 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:46:07pm

I was thinking of forming my own religion- one based on the notion there is no hell- this is hell. And we're breaking out, damnit! Thing is- we have some time to kill in hell before we break out, so we need to make the best of it. That's why we have beer.

100 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:46:32pm

re: #96 Jim in Virginia

Make sure you put enough garlic on it. Keeps the werewolves away.

No garlic. It only keeps vampires away and we don't need to do that. We drain off part of the troll's blood and serve that to the vampires when they show up. If we get a lot of them, we just give them a troll and they drink the troll dry.

101 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:46:42pm

re: #80 quickjustice

Religion does not disprove science, and science does not disprove religion.

Did I get that right?

Though to be fair, science does kick totalitarian types of religion right in the teeth.

If it is part of your faith thet your clergy are never wrong and then they say things that just aren't true it exposes them to questioning.

This action of questioning is actually very good and essential for faith in a purely spiritual sense. Real faith and belief is hard fought and deeply wrestled with. The scientific method and the sort of thinking that comes with it, though does terrible things for those who prefer bite sized answers to cosmic questions.

Make no doubt, Gallileo did as much to de-fang the excesses of the Church as any other force in history. However, paradoxically, that was the nasty Inquisition stuff. Take that away and you can get back to the beautiful stuff.

102 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:46:42pm

Maybe I'm over-simplifying it, but ...

We've been at science for so little time, relatively speaking, I'm dumbfounded that anyone could honestly (sic) attempt to argue for "irreducible" complexity.

WTF do we know, so far? What's left to learn? Probably one helluva lot!

103 jaunte  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:47:29pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

Do the turtles have to stay?

104 hopperandadropper  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:47:45pm

When you look at basic biology, you find that the systems that exist for dealing with fundamental problems of life are essentially the same in every organism. Two examples: vacuolar ATPase, which is a highly efficient proton pump that helps to control the acid/base balance in cells, and Nrf2, an antioxidant transcription factor that turns on the expression of antioxidant proteins to protect cells against reactive oxygen species (superoxide, hydrogen peroxide, nitric oxide, etc.) that can be lethal or cause mutations when they're present in excess.

Pretty much any form of life needs to control acid-base balance and protect itself agains the harmful by-products of oxygen-based metabolism. Oddly enough, when you look around you find that v-ATPase and Nrf2, or something highly similar and serving the same purpose, are pretty much everywhere (I don't know of any exceptions).

Same solution to the same problem in pretty much every organism on the planet. Seems to suggest common origins, eh?

105 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:47:53pm

re: #98 freetoken


/troll behavior is irreducibly complex to me.

no it isn't.

It evolved from attention whoring.

106 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:48:19pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

That we have beer is proof positive that we are not in hell.
There will be no beer in hell, only cheap liquor that tastes like Nyquil.

107 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:48:42pm

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

No garlic. It only keeps vampires away and we don't need to do that. We drain off part of the troll's blood and serve that to the vampires when they show up. If we get a lot of them, we just give them a troll and they drink the troll dry.

If there's no garlic in it, I don't want any, thank you very much.
/flounces off

108 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:49:19pm

Who's Pete?

And why did someone take his Sake?

109 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:49:32pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

I was thinking of forming my own religion- one based on the notion there is no hell- this is hell. And we're breaking out, damnit! Thing is- we have some time to kill in hell before we break out, so we need to make the best of it. That's why we have beer.

In heaven
there is no beer.
That's why
we drink it here.

And when we're gone
from here,
our friends will be drinking
all our beer.

110 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:50:17pm

re: #97 quickjustice

Genesis is a fascinating book. It's really a compendium of several different creation stories that probably evolved (if you'll excuse the choice of words) over millenia as oral traditions before they were collected and written down.

Well that is certainly one view. It can be well argued and I am not trying to say it is inherently wrong.

However, there are some of us who still believe that Moses took some dictation.

BUt then again that is a matter of faith.

It is certainly true that there has always been an oral tradition in Judaism to go along with Genesis -and everything else. One of the things that makes discussing this with ID type Christians difficult is that they have never seen or heard the oral traditions that go with Genesis.

111 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:50:34pm

re: #92 iceweasel

Yes! Exactly! Nailing my point in far fewer words! ;)

Oh shucks iceweasel ;-) Your's was more explanatory.

112 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:51:13pm

re: #69 Charles

There's something melty in the air tonight.

113 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:51:23pm

Science is a method of observing, measuring, and analyzing the physical universe. Religion is a system for communicating with a Higher, Metaphysical Power.

114 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:51:29pm

re: #69 Charles

There's something melty in the air tonight.


115 researchok  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:51:33pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

I was thinking of forming my own religion- one based on the notion there is no hell- this is hell. And we're breaking out, damnit! Thing is- we have some time to kill in hell before we break out, so we need to make the best of it. That's why we have beer.

Count me in. I suggest we meet at a Chinese buffet or Golden Corral.

116 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:51:33pm

re: #59 Sharmuta

Well- yes, but when has being proven wrong stopped creationists from carrying on?

Lying for Jesus© The antidote for PC leftist endoctrination in schools... because 2 wrongs make a right.

/

117 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:51:53pm

re: #107 Jim in Virginia

If there's no garlic in it, I don't want any, thank you very much.
/flounces off

I'll make up some garlic sauce for you to dip your portion into. Does that work for you?

118 Erik The Red  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:52:02pm

Good Night Lizards. Stay Scaly.

119 Danny  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:52:26pm

re: #118 Erik The Red

Later red

120 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:52:33pm

re: #95 Danny

Mandy...you effin' rock!

*curtsey*

121 quickjustice  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:53:29pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

Moses could have been the emanuensis of Genesis and the rest of Torah. Pharaoh taught him to read and write. Who knows?

122 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:53:44pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

I was thinking of forming my own religion- one based on the notion there is no hell- this is hell. And we're breaking out, damnit! Thing is- we have some time to kill in hell before we break out, so we need to make the best of it. That's why we have beer.

Sounds like you've been attending those gnostic conventicles again Sharm ;-)

123 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:54:00pm

re: #66 Jimmah

Repost...

Funny how you two grackles can't keep the AGW-hysteria separate from creationism, in every thread. Wonder why that is.

Because you talk just like a creationist.

Because you refuse to see facts and data just like a creationist.

Because you pose supernatural causes for the science just like a creationist (only this time, Al Gore is Satan, rather than the old fashioned one).

Because you parade out discredited cranks as great scientists just like Behe gets trotted out by the creationists.

Because you quote mine and cherry pick just like creationists. Because you lie and distort just like creationists.

Because you don't know high school science, let alone sufficient science to address what you are talking about just like a creationist.

Because you feel persecuted by some scientific conspiracy, just like a creationist.

Because no matter how much evidence we throw at you, beg with you to look at, or patiently explain to you, you still refuse to process what it means just like a creationist.

Other than that there are no major similarities that spring directly to mind.

124 itellu3times  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:54:35pm

re: #102 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Maybe I'm over-simplifying it, but ...

We've been at science for so little time, relatively speaking, I'm dumbfounded that anyone could honestly (sic) attempt to argue for "irreducible" complexity.

WTF do we know, so far? What's left to learn? Probably one helluva lot!

I've read a bit of science, and a fair amount of philosophy of science, and some more general analytic sorts of philosophy, and it seems very common in many branches of science for a scientist to - well, act like anyone else, when it comes right down to it. They start believing the particular hammer they have in hand is the universal tool, and everything else in the universe is their nail. The "sophisticated" way of saying this is to claim that whatever it is you're talking about is *special*, essential, ... irreducible.

Because it is so common, and ancient, in the better parts of town any claims to essentialness or specialness are generally frowned upon, and yet, claims of irreducibility seem to go on and on.

So, from that perspective, Behe's claim is just noise. Someone was going to say it, because someone always says it, whatever the topic is. And just on its face, it is more than just average skepticism to reject it even before further argument, it is philosophical best practice - or at least a time-saving heuristic, if someone is going to get all huffy about rejecting something without hearing it out. Sure, someone may yet prove the Earth is flat, and we've been mislead by those soulless Rounders.

125 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:56:07pm

John Birch Society Aug 21, 2009 Ron Paul Speech Part 1

Melty!

126 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:56:15pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

I'll make up some garlic sauce for you to dip your portion into. Does that work for you?

Dammit, I'm looking for an argument and all you can do is be agreeable.
To heck with it, I'm going to bed.

Play nice, lizards.

127 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:56:22pm

re: #124 itellu3times

This is why peer review and multiple independent observers are so important. That addresses this issue directly.

128 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:56:31pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

I was thinking of forming my own religion- one based on the notion there is no hell- this is hell. And we're breaking out, damnit! Thing is- we have some time to kill in hell before we break out, so we need to make the best of it. That's why we have beer.

Sounds like a redneck writing a term paper on Sartre's "No Exit".

:D ... I love it!

129 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:56:41pm

re: #123 LudwigVanQuixote

Repost...

Because you talk just like a creationist.

Because you refuse to see facts and data just like a creationist.

Because you pose supernatural causes for the science just like a creationist (only this time, Al Gore is Satan, rather than the old fashioned one).

Because you parade out discredited cranks as great scientists just like Behe gets trotted out by the creationists.

Because you quote mine and cherry pick just like creationists. Because you lie and distort just like creationists.

Because you don't know high school science, let alone sufficient science to address what you are talking about just like a creationist.

Because you feel persecuted by some scientific conspiracy, just like a creationist.

Because no matter how much evidence we throw at you, beg with you to look at, or patiently explain to you, you still refuse to process what it means just like a creationist.

Other than that there are no major similarities that spring directly to mind.

You post a screed like this (report too), yet you are a man of science on a evolution thread talking about god.

Disconnect.

130 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:57:03pm

re: #127 LudwigVanQuixote

This is why peer review and multiple independent observers are so important. That addresses this issue directly.

Where's the peer review on "god?"

131 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:57:45pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Wow... ID, AGW, and now JBS and Ron Paul, all in one thread.

Casserole time!

/served as a side dish to the roast troll that is being prepared...

132 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:57:52pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

That's why we have beer.

And sexy parties!

133 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:58:22pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

John Birch Society Aug 21, 2009 Ron Paul Speech Part 1

[Video]Melty!

Ugh, behold our future.

134 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:58:50pm

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

You post a screed like this (report too), yet you are a man of science on a evolution thread talking about god.

Disconnect.

Yes, I am an observant Jew. I went to Yeshiva even. Believe it or don't only very narrow minded and stupid people believe that science and religion are an either or proposition. The fact is that they answer very different questions and fill very different needs.

Science is how and religion is why. There is no inherent conflict that must exist a priori.

Anyone who think otherwise has not thought it through enough.

135 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:58:53pm

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We all break out of hell alone and in our own time.

136 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:58:58pm

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

My post gave me a boner. I think I'll save it and post it again whenever I'm not being paid enough attention.

137 itellu3times  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:59:01pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Where's the peer review on "god?"

wait a minute, I'm trying to parse this ...

138 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:59:28pm

re: #123 LudwigVanQuixote

Repost...

Because you talk just like a creationist.

Because you refuse to see facts and data just like a creationist.

Because you pose supernatural causes for the science just like a creationist (only this time, Al Gore is Satan, rather than the old fashioned one).

Because you parade out discredited cranks as great scientists just like Behe gets trotted out by the creationists.

Because you quote mine and cherry pick just like creationists. Because you lie and distort just like creationists.

Because you don't know high school science, let alone sufficient science to address what you are talking about just like a creationist.

Because you feel persecuted by some scientific conspiracy, just like a creationist.

Because no matter how much evidence we throw at you, beg with you to look at, or patiently explain to you, you still refuse to process what it means just like a creationist.

Other than that there are no major similarities that spring directly to mind.

Well said Ludwig! And a well deserved repost. Differrent science topic, same bullshit.

139 BlueCanuck  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:59:34pm

Well I am off to bed. Throw any left overs in the fridge for me would you?

140 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 6:59:36pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Where's the peer review on "god?"

There is none. That is why it is a matter of faith and not science. I am surprised you don't understand this. Or are you just trying to be snarky?

141 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:00:19pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Wow, he's actually giving kudos to the Birchers in the vid...

142 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:02:58pm

re: #141 Thanos

Yup, I posted it before I started watching. He talks a lot about the new resurgence of the Birch Society, Libertarians and the "Freedom Movement" recently. Very spooky to think that he's probably right. I'm not sure how far these loons can take this success but they are booming and they know it. I might actually watch the whole thing.
Need more beer...

143 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:03:13pm

re: #80 quickjustice

Religion does not disprove science, and science does not disprove religion.

Did I get that right?

Depends how pedantic one wants to be. The first part is true only to the extent that religion doesn't try to. The second part is true only to the extent that religion exists regardless.

144 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:03:27pm

So did anyone I know melt down on this thread?

145 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:03:32pm

re: #134 LudwigVanQuixote


Anyone who think otherwise has not thought it through enough.

Bare assertion is bare.

146 researchok  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:03:50pm

Religious people ought to celebrate truth, including the truth of science.

That there are those who claim to be religious and deny scientific truths only highlights their own ignorance. No pseudo museums or theme parks designed to hide reality can change that

There are real scientists in the Vatican, for example, and in religious communities of every stripe (including religious winners of the Nobel Prize), all of whom enthusiastically embrace science and suffer no conflict with their religious faith.

There are far more of them than there are deniers.

147 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:04:02pm

re: #138 Jimmah

Thanks buddy!

148 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:04:19pm

re: #123 LudwigVanQuixote

Repost...

Because you talk just like a creationist.

Because you refuse to see facts and data just like a creationist.

Because you pose supernatural causes for the science just like a creationist (only this time, Al Gore is Satan, rather than the old fashioned one).

Because you parade out discredited cranks as great scientists just like Behe gets trotted out by the creationists.

Because you quote mine and cherry pick just like creationists. Because you lie and distort just like creationists.

Because you don't know high school science, let alone sufficient science to address what you are talking about just like a creationist.

Because you feel persecuted by some scientific conspiracy, just like a creationist.

Because no matter how much evidence we throw at you, beg with you to look at, or patiently explain to you, you still refuse to process what it means just like a creationist.

Other than that there are no major similarities that spring directly to mind.

Do I hear a bell? Because whoever tried to tell Ludwig off that time got schooled!

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:04:45pm

re: #97 quickjustice

Genesis is a fascinating book. It's really a compendium of several different creation stories that probably evolved (if you'll excuse the choice of words) over millenia as oral traditions before they were collected and written down.

Let us make man in our image...

150 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:05:13pm

Notice he's taking jabs at the Republican party, he thinks they are at a breakaway moment. He better go back and look at his one percent of the vote.

151 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:05:15pm

re: #135 Sharmuta

We all break out of hell alone and in our own time.

OMG, Sharm! Don't start.
It's been too damn long. I've forgotten my Kierkegaard!
Dammit, lady, ... HAVE A BEER AND CHILL!

... ... ... :D

152 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:05:34pm

Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues

153 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:05:40pm

re: #144 LudwigVanQuixote

So did anyone I know melt down on this thread?

Who do you know?

154 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:05:44pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

Let us make man in our image...

What a gift and what a discussion as to what that means...

I always like the link to speech that is made in the commentaries.

155 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:05:44pm

re: #140 LudwigVanQuixote

There is none. That is why it is a matter of faith and not science. I am surprised you don't understand this. Or are you just trying to be snarky?

No, I'm trying to be honest.

156 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:06:12pm

re: #153 Naso Tang

Who do you know?

Were any of them some of the more explosive anti AGW types?

157 yochanan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:07:38pm

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

american military under fire how come this isn[t major news?

158 fish  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:07:41pm

re: #80 quickjustice

Religion does not disprove science, and science does not disprove religion.

Did I get that right?

I could not agree with you more. I firmly believe in creation by evolution.

159 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:09:18pm

re: #157 yochanan

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

american military under fire how come this isn[t major news?

Nobody got hurt. No damage or casualties means no real story.

160 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:09:19pm

Since this is an evolution thread... I found this little paleontology news interesting:

Scientists find evidence of iridescence in 40 million-year-old feather fossil

Known for their wide variety of vibrant plumage, birds have evolved various chemical and physical mechanisms to produce these beautiful colors over millions of years. A team of paleontologists and ornithologists led by Yale University has now discovered evidence of vivid iridescent colors in feather fossils more than 40 million years old.

161 researchok  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:09:36pm

re: #157 yochanan

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

american military under fire how come this isn[t major news?

They pissed off the Navy guys, to be sure.

Look for another taked own of pirates.

162 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:10:17pm

I left off the punch line from the bird fossil quote:

"Of course, the 'Holy Grail' in this program is reconstructing the colors of the feathered dinosaurs," said Yale graduate student and lead author Jakob Vinther. "We are working hard to determine if this will be possible."

163 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:10:34pm

re: #152 Last Mohican

Nice.

164 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:10:41pm

re: #156 LudwigVanQuixote

Were any of them some of the more explosive anti AGW types?

I have never known any meltdown; although babbazee comes to mind, not that I actually Knew her. Before your time though. Those were the days. Good thing dings weren't invented yet; I'd still be grasping for zero.

Correction: Nana comes to mind, but I was away then.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:12:00pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote


It is certainly true that there has always been an oral tradition in Judaism to go along with Genesis -and everything else. One of the things that makes discussing this with ID type Christians difficult is that they have never seen or heard the oral traditions that go with Genesis.

Some of the Protestant traditions are committed to the idea of literal biblical readings, independent of a received commentary tradition such as Judaism and Catholicism both maintain.

I try to keep that in mind when talking to people from that background, but it's a little alien to me. It also seems to me that people adhere to the 'literal' interpretation they were taught...so how literal is it?

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:13:40pm

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

You post a screed like this (report too), yet you are a man of science on a evolution thread talking about god.

Disconnect.

How so?

167 shortshrift  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:13:45pm

re: #80 quickjustice

Religion does not disprove science, and science does not disprove religion.

Did I get that right?

And religion does not prove religion.

168 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:14:36pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Where's the peer review on "god?"

God, by nature, doesn't have peers, and cannot be reviewed. However, the occasional rabbi has been known to offer helpful suggestions.

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:15:15pm

re: #135 Sharmuta

We all break out of hell alone and in our own time.

Awww. Can't we do it as a team?

170 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:16:07pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

Awww. Can't we do it as a team?

Yikes- no! My religion isn't a suicide pact.

171 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:16:10pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

How so?

Because I really suspect the critical thinking skills of any scientist who claim to be a believer. And no, I am not against religion or anything like that, but as an atheist, I see a total disconnect there.

172 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:16:22pm

re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist


I try to keep that in mind when talking to people from that background, but it's a little alien to me. It also seems to me that people adhere to the 'literal' interpretation they were taught...so how literal is it?

I'm curious. When do you actually talk to people on these subjects, whatever the backgrounds?

I try to observe the no sex, politics, or religion rule when socializing (well, maybe not always the first two).

173 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:16:26pm

Part 3 has some interesting stuff...

174 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:17:22pm

re: #173 Killgore Trout

He talks about political violence from the left.

175 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:18:22pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

"we can avoid the violence but we have to be prepared"

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:19:23pm

re: #170 Sharmuta

Yikes- no! My religion isn't a suicide pact.

Oh, break out like that.

Well heck. OK, independently.

177 Maui Girl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:20:21pm

All of this, science, religion, whatever, is an attempt by human beings to answer the all asking question, "Why do we exist?"

178 fish  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:21:16pm

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

Because I really suspect the critical thinking skills of any scientist who claim to be a believer. And no, I am not against religion or anything like that, but as an atheist, I see a total disconnect there.

Some of history's greatest scientific minds were men of faith: Galileo, Newton, Einstien.

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:22:22pm

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

Because I really suspect the critical thinking skills of any scientist who claim to be a believer. And no, I am not against religion or anything like that, but as an atheist, I see a total disconnect there.

Interesting. Can you articulate why a little more, or do the two categories not seem to match? My take, as whatever kind of believer I am, is that whatever we learn about science enhances the vague understanding of God we try to have.

180 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:22:49pm

re: #175 Killgore Trout

"we can avoid the violence but we have to be prepared"

Regrettably, I feel Ron Paul has a partial point on that one. Given the left's history of violence, it can be necessary for conservatives to be prepared to defend themselves if the left decides to get rough. We should never attack or go around brandishing weapons, but we do need to be prepared on some occasions in case we get attacked.

181 researchok  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:22:59pm

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

Because I really suspect the critical thinking skills of any scientist who claim to be a believer. And no, I am not against religion or anything like that, but as an atheist, I see a total disconnect there.

There are Nobel Prize winners who are believers.

Faith and science are not mutually exclusive.

182 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:24:29pm

re: #173 Killgore Trout

Part 3 has some interesting stuff...

[Video]

Gah! The crazy!

What the hell is going on, that someone like Ron Paul can be gaining popularity? Why doesn't anyone see anything wrong when he gives speeches to the John Birch Society?

This is really getting disturbing.

183 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:24:45pm

re: #178 fish

Some of history's greatest scientific minds were men of faith: Galileo, Newton, Einstien.

Galileo was not a man of his time's faith, or he would not have contradicted it, and Einstein was certainly not in the manner you allude to.

184 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:25:12pm

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

Because I really suspect the critical thinking skills of any scientist who claim to be a believer. And no, I am not against religion or anything like that, but as an atheist, I see a total disconnect there.

Hmm, "I question the intelligence of people who come to different conclusions than me". Interesting.

185 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:25:54pm

re: #184 cliffster

Hmm, "I question the intelligence of people who come to different conclusions than me". Interesting.

Interesting? These days, it's de rigeur!

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:26:05pm

re: #172 Naso Tang

I'm curious. When do you actually talk to people on these subjects, whatever the backgrounds?

I try to observe the no sex, politics, or religion rule when socializing (well, maybe not always the first two).

Well, online quite a bit--I've talked to people here about this. And some assorted friends--I know a number of people raised in the Evangelical churches who are interested in Judaism, because of their beliefs about revelation. And an occasional young person seeking to get me to accept the Lord as my personal savior, although I tend to avoid those conversations these days. We used to discuss this in college when we were taking Bible As Lit classes.

I also spend a lot of time at work talking about religion, but that's in a Catholic setting, which is quite a bit different.

187 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:26:06pm

re: #182 Charles

Gah! The crazy!

What the hell is going on, that someone like Ron Paul can be gaining popularity? Why doesn't anyone see anything wrong when he gives speeches to the John Birch Society?

This is really getting disturbing.

Fascism thrives in times of hysteria. There are so many who feel their position slipping away - they need someone to blame. Make no doubt the reality of a black president is fueling some of these fears of losing ground.

188 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:27:07pm

re: #182 Charles

Gah! The crazy!

What the hell is going on, that someone like Ron Paul can be gaining popularity? Why doesn't anyone see anything wrong when he gives speeches to the John Birch Society?

This is really getting disturbing.

Yes it is. Ron Paul is a political disease. Every thing he touches turns to slime.

189 Altermite  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:27:08pm

re: #178 fish

Some of history's greatest scientific minds were men of faith: Galileo, Newton, Einstien.

Very doubtful on the last of those.

In fact, of those three, only newton ever seemed to pay more than lip service to religion in his writings.

190 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:27:12pm

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

Because I really suspect the critical thinking skills of any scientist who claim to be a believer. And no, I am not against religion or anything like that, but as an atheist, I see a total disconnect there.

Nah, I just think you suspect my critical thinking skills. That's your right though.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:27:18pm

re: #177 Maui Girl

All of this, science, religion, whatever, is an attempt by human beings to answer the all asking question, "Why do we exist?"

Or, as a two-year-old says, "Why?"

We really go on saying it all our lives, we just get more sophisticated about the language.

192 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:27:52pm

Gotta go, lady calls! Stay scaley!

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:28:07pm

re: #180 Dark_Falcon

Regrettably, I feel Ron Paul has a partial point on that one. Given the left's history of violence, it can be necessary for conservatives to be prepared to defend themselves if the left decides to get rough. We should never attack or go around brandishing weapons, but we do need to be prepared on some occasions in case we get attacked.

Wait, I thought the left was afraid of guns...

///

194 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:28:15pm

re: #182 Charles

Gah! The crazy!

What the hell is going on, that someone like Ron Paul can be gaining popularity? Why doesn't anyone see anything wrong when he gives speeches to the John Birch Society?

This is really getting disturbing.

Anti-intellectualism from both the left and the right has taken its toll.

195 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:28:20pm

re: #182 Charles

Gah! The crazy!

What the hell is going on, that someone like Ron Paul can be gaining popularity? Why doesn't anyone see anything wrong when he gives speeches to the John Birch Society?

This is really getting disturbing.

Not just giving speeches, but complimenting them and "their ideas".

196 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:28:33pm

re: #182 Charles

Glenn Beck is into the Birch Society stuff too. It's all the rage.

197 Coracle  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:28:44pm

re: #177 Maui Girl

All of this, science, religion, whatever, is an attempt by human beings to answer the all asking question, "Why do we exist?"

True enough. But we really already know the answer:
"Why not?"

198 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:29:17pm

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

Because I really suspect the critical thinking skills of any scientist who claim to be a believer. And no, I am not against religion or anything like that, but as an atheist, I see a total disconnect there.

Why, Walter? As an agnostic I can foresee a point at which scientists have answered most/all the questions of how, but still find themselves faced with the big one, why?

I suppose one possible answer is heck, why not?
/Agnostic indeed.

199 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:29:53pm

Ojoe - you here?

200 fish  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:30:14pm

re: #183 Naso Tang

Galileo was not a man of his time's faith, or he would not have contradicted it, and Einstein was certainly not in the manner you allude to.

Galileo disagreed with the teachings of the church, something that many people of faith have done.

Einstien often refered to seeing God in the wonder of the Universe. Although he did not believe in a God that involved himself in day to day life I would call him a man of faith.

201 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:30:16pm

re: #196 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck is into the Birch Society stuff too. It's all the rage Bad Craziness.

fixed.

202 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:30:25pm

re: #183 Naso Tang

Galileo was not a man of his time's faith, or he would not have contradicted it, and Einstein was certainly not in the manner you allude to.

From Galileo: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

From Einstein: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."

203 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:31:01pm

re: #182 Charles

Gah! The crazy!

What the hell is going on, that someone like Ron Paul can be gaining popularity? Why doesn't anyone see anything wrong when he gives speeches to the John Birch Society?

This is really getting disturbing.

Ignorance? I think there is a whole generation who has not a clue about the John Birch bunch.

204 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:31:16pm

re: #180 Dark_Falcon
The most likely source of political violence is going to be from guys like this...
Pastor Of Gun-Toter At Obama Event Prayed For Obama To Die
I have no doubt that the right will try to blame the left. We are playing with fire.

205 Coracle  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:31:25pm

re: #202 SanFranciscoZionist

I always dug Spinoza.

206 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:31:27pm

re: #193 SanFranciscoZionist

Wait, I thought the left was afraid of guns...

///

Personally, quite often. Collectively, not at all.

Of course, that's not just the "left". Many people are all for violence if someone else will do it for them, but treat firearms as if they were live, leprous rattlesnakes.

207 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:31:46pm

Smokey Sunset.

I know Ojoe will post a link in about 2 minutes - but the view is awesome right now.

208 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:32:34pm

Irreducible complexity. Weird. Seems to me like the hoops folks jump through to try and prove that God exists indicates that they are deep down questioning their beliefs. I never really try and find proof that my dog exists, it's kind've a given. For that matter, scientists don't really try and prove that things exist, in the end they just try and characterize the behaviors of things that clearly do.

209 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:32:34pm

I want to take one post to write about John Birch Society.

In the spring of 1942, a group of stranded U.S. servicemen huddled inside a Chinese riverboat, hiding from Japanese soldiers in the invaded country. Suddenly, they heard what seemed to be an American voice: "Anyone in there?" The hidden men feared trickery and capture until they heard the voice again; it was a full-blown Southern accent.

That voice belonged to missionary John Morrison Birch, and the men he rescued from the boat were Col. Jimmy Doolittle and his famed "Tokyo Raiders." Birch brought the group down the Chienteng River to the town of Lanchi, from where they were able to move on to safety.

Birch later rose to Captain under the OSS and was captured and executed by Chinese communists in 1945.

I am grateful that John Birch helped rescue Col. Doolittle. I think this action is obscured due to the politics of the society formed in his name.

211 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:33:55pm

re: #207 Racer X

You beat me to it!

LOL

212 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:34:32pm

re: #184 cliffster

Hmm, "I question the intelligence of people who come to different conclusions than me". Interesting.

Because a conclusion that includes a god is belief, not knowledge. Big difference. If an intelligent person wants to challenge me with opposing knowledge, then I certainly would consider their conclusions.

Challenge me with your faith, there is no argument. You believe, I accept that, but not your conclusions.

And never the twain shall meet.

213 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:34:42pm

re: #209 experiencedtraveller

I want to take one post to write about John Birch Society.

Birch later rose to Captain under the OSS and was captured and executed by Chinese communists in 1945.

I am grateful that John Birch helped rescue Col. Doolittle. I think this action is obscured due to the politics of the society formed in his name.

Quite Concur. Among their many misdeeds, the Birchers sullied the name of a hero.

214 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:34:54pm

re: #199 Racer X

I was practicing the pipes & not checking the Towercam ...

215 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:34:59pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Mitochondria are descended from free-living bacteria, which several billion years ago were swallowed by complex cells. The mitochondria soon became central to the cells’ function.

Freaky.

Freakier still that some of the mitochondria's close relatives still exist as the free-living soil bacterium Azotobacter vinlandii, responsible for some nitrogen fixation in the soil.

One reason it's considered to be a relative of the mitochondria is that it has an unusually high respiratory rate which is used to protect its nitrogen-fixing enzymes from damage by oxygen. As I understand it, once the mitochondrion got absorbed into the ancient eukaryotic cell, it lost the ability to fix nitrogen, but retained the respiratory chain that once protected its nitrogen-fixing enzymes, and the ancient eukayotic cells harnessed it for cellular respiration.

216 shortshrift  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:35:07pm

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

Because I really suspect the critical thinking skills of any scientist who claim to be a believer. And no, I am not against religion or anything like that, but as an atheist, I see a total disconnect there.

I agree. How can a rational individual both accept and deny dogma? The argument that science and religion fulfill different "needs", is therapy-talk.
It means that rationality is put aside whenever "spiritual" needs demand it.

217 Coracle  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:35:38pm

re: #206 OldLineTexan

Many people are all for violence if someone else will do it for them, but treat firearms as if they were live, leprous rattlesnakes.

If you think about it, a live, leprous rattlesnake isn't really a problem. Not for long, at least.

So that argument has no legs-
er
That argument falls apart-
er
Or sssomething.

218 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:35:41pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

The most likely source of political violence is going to be from guys like this...
Pastor Of Gun-Toter At Obama Event Prayed For Obama To Die
I have no doubt that the right will try to blame the left. We are playing with fire.

Calvinist Reconstructionism, definite Dominionist church

219 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:36:00pm

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

Because a conclusion that includes a god is belief, not knowledge. Big difference. If an intelligent person wants to challenge me with opposing knowledge, then I certainly would consider their conclusions.

Challenge me with your faith, there is no argument. You believe, I accept that, but not your conclusions.

And never the twain shall meet.

Or I see (feel, sense, whatever) something you don't.

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:36:15pm

re: #203 The Shadow Do

Ignorance? I think there is a whole generation who has not a clue about the John Birch bunch.

We're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society,
And we're here to save America from the Communistic plot!

Yeah, except for my dad singing that around the house, I would have no idea who they were.

221 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:36:24pm

re: #211 Ojoe

You beat me to it!

LOL

It was awesome about ten minutes ago!

222 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:36:57pm

re: #77 esch

When people have asked me what I think about faith versus science, I answer "Faith's role is to provide workable rules of thumb to cover things we don't understand scientifically, YET. Once we do, faith needs to concede the argument."

ID is a perfect example of why.

AKA "God of the gaps"

223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:37:16pm

Irreducible

adjective
1.not reducible; incapable of being reduced or of being diminished or simplified further: the irreducible minimum.
2.incapable of being brought into a different condition or form.
3.Mathematics.
a.of or pertaining to a polynomial that cannot be factored.
b.of or pertaining to a group that cannot be written as the direct product of two of its subgroups.

Sometimes I am confused by definitions.

224 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:37:30pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

We're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society,
And we're here to save America from the Communistic plot!

Yeah, except for my dad singing that around the house, I would have no idea who they were.

Chad Mitchell Trio. "Hang on the bell, Nellie"

225 gatorbait  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:37:43pm

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

226 SurferDoc  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:38:26pm

Tom Lehrer, no?

227 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:38:43pm

re: #216 shortshrift

Well I would say that science and religion both are after Truth & as truth will have a certain unity, the two will converge.

I speak of mature religion here, not of course fundamentalism.

The new Catholic catechism has some good info on this I will see if I can post it.

228 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:39:02pm

re: #225 gatorbait

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

Why would you want to be an amoeba?

229 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:39:21pm

re: #219 cliffster

Or I see (feel, sense, whatever) something you don't.

I know that you believe you do. No argument there.

230 BignJames  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:39:35pm

re: #228 Racer X

LoL!

231 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:39:55pm
232 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:40:05pm

Avalon sure was pretty today!

233 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:40:08pm

re: #225 gatorbait

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

I would like to see one of you pious saints levitate your ass outta here.

234 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:40:13pm

re: #228 Racer X

Why would you want to be an amoeba?

Someone of equal intelligence for Gaitorbait to talk to?

235 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:40:13pm

re: #225 gatorbait

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

And I would like to see one of you mystic priests change water into wine?

236 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:40:55pm

re: #225 gatorbait

Thanks for flouncing. I'll keep the grill hot for you.

237 jaunte  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:41:10pm

re: #228 Racer X

Why would you want to be an amoeba?

Maybe to have a better chance of coming up with a new line.

238 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:41:19pm

re: #200 fish

Galileo disagreed with the teachings of the church, something that many people of faith have done.

Einstien often refered to seeing God in the wonder of the Universe. Although he did not believe in a God that involved himself in day to day life I would call him a man of faith.

Galileo was a heretic according to his time. You can argue that today he would not be, but that makes him a poor example of a "man of faith" in his age.

Einstein did not believe in a God, period, and he made that very clear when he was quoted out of context, such as the bit about dice and QM.

Anyway, the only reason I argue this point is that I have seen so many cherry picked quotes presented by people who seem to be obsessed with justifying their faith based on the sayings of, mostly, dead famous scientists when what they should be doing is quoting live famous scientists. There are plenty of those still around.

239 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:41:29pm

re: #37 Charles

There's nothing more boring than announcing to the world that you're bored.

Anyone who is even capable of being bored is boring.

240 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:42:32pm

re: #225 gatorbait

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

Want fries with that?

241 shortshrift  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:42:34pm

re: #198 The Shadow Do

Why, Walter? As an agnostic I can foresee a point at which scientists have answered most/all the questions of how, but still find themselves faced with the big one, why?

I suppose one possible answer is heck, why not?
/Agnostic indeed.

The one question that does not need to be answered concerning the universe is "why"? The answer is "no reason", and accepting that will make no change the nature of the universe. Accepting that the universe is pointless, a vast waste of time, is a good start to coming to terms with reality, enjoying life, making things work for the here and now and posterity (however short it is).

242 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:42:59pm

re: #229 Walter L. Newton

I know that you believe you do. No argument there.

Ok, and a scientist, whose craft is to make observations and categorize them, could equally well see/feel/sense the same thing. It seems to me like a person in that position would be quite the poor scientist if they refused to acknowledge that sense just because they "don't believe in God". The most important thing for a scientist to do is to disallow personal prejudices when drawing conclusions.

243 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:43:08pm

re: #231 Killgore Trout

Be patient...
Artificial life is only months away, says biologist Craig Venter

Oh hell. Here comes SkyNet.

244 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:43:13pm

re: #239 Cato the Elder

Anyone who is even capable of being bored is boring.

So you are not bored by boring people?

245 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:43:28pm

re: #228 Racer X

Time for this one:

Some scientists made life in their lab. "Well," they said, "let's go tell God what we just did, 'cause we don't need him anymore." So they went to God & told him what they had done. "Let me see," said God. "OK," said the scientists, and they got out a test tube and reached down for some dirt. "Wait!" said God. "Make your own dirt!"

246 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:43:47pm

re: #244 haakondahl

So you are not bored by boring people?

Maybe he's bored by people who get bored.

/uh-oh

247 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:44:02pm

re: #225 gatorbait

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

How long do you plan to live?

248 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:44:21pm

re: #235 Walter L. Newton

And I would like to see one of you mystic priests change water into wine?

"If anyone thinks
That I amn't divine
He'll get no free drinks
When I'm making the wine;
But have to drink water,
And wish it were plain,
That I makes when the wine
Becomes water again."

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:44:25pm

re: #216 shortshrift

I agree. How can a rational individual both accept and deny dogma? The argument that science and religion fulfill different "needs", is therapy-talk.
It means that rationality is put aside whenever "spiritual" needs demand it.

My religion has no dogma that states that scientific discoveries be ignored or invalidated. Neither do many others, including branches of Christianity.

(OK, granted, Judaism hardly even has a dogma, we're more about the praxis, but you see what I mean.)

250 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:44:33pm

re: #243 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh hell. Here comes SkyNet.

All I know is that you should melt any strange chips you find laying about.

/

251 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:44:55pm

re: #244 haakondahl

So you are not bored by boring people?

Heh. You noticed the paradox!

Like the barber...

252 Altermite  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:00pm

re: #235 Walter L. Newton

And I would like to see one of you mystic priests change water into wine?

This particular 'scientific genius' is capable of turning wine into water, at the very least.

Seriously though.

Craig Ventner's lab develops 'synthetic DNA'.

Just as an FYI, Ventner is one of the lead guys in biology and genetics. He's also a little infamous, or at least controversial, but undeniably talented.

253 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:06pm

re: #228 Racer X

Why would you want to be an amoeba?

J'ai toujours fait une prière à Dieu, qui est fort courte. La voici: Mon Dieu, rendez nos ennemis bien ridicules! Dieu m'a exaucé.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it."

--Voltaire (pseud. François-Marie Arouet) to Étienne Noël Damilaville, 16 May 1767

254 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:11pm

The trolls are devolving back to long debunked talking points. How quaint.

255 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:15pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

The most likely source of political violence is going to be from guys like this...
Pastor Of Gun-Toter At Obama Event Prayed For Obama To Die
I have no doubt that the right will try to blame the left. We are playing with fire.

I just finished the article. The rifle-carrier apparently went on to appear on the Alex Jones Show. Further proof, if more was needed, that he is bark-at-the-moon crazy.

256 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:28pm

re: #244 haakondahl

So you are not bored by boring people?

If there were no boring people, how would you know you were not boring?

257 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:32pm

re: #241 shortshrift

The one question that does not need to be answered concerning the universe is "why"? The answer is "no reason", and accepting that will make no change the nature of the universe. Accepting that the universe is pointless, a vast waste of time, is a good start to coming to terms with reality, enjoying life, making things work for the here and now and posterity (however short it is).

Well, that's one way to roll. I tend to think some thing initiated this cocktail, and I am pretty much immaterial in the scope of it all. Nets much the same outlook I suppose.

258 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:41pm

letter to PIMF

259 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:53pm

re: #256 Naso Tang

If there were no boring people, how would you know you were not boring?

How very Taoist.

260 fish  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:46:54pm

re: #238 Naso Tang

Galileo was a heretic according to his time. You can argue that today he would not be, but that makes him a poor example of a "man of faith" in his age.

Einstein did not believe in a God, period, and he made that very clear when he was quoted out of context, such as the bit about dice and QM.

Anyway, the only reason I argue this point is that I have seen so many cherry picked quotes presented by people who seem to be obsessed with justifying their faith based on the sayings of, mostly, dead famous scientists when what they should be doing is quoting live famous scientists. There are plenty of those still around.

I am not attempting to nor do I ever feel the need to "Justify my Faith" to you or anyone else.

261 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:47:41pm

re: #245 Ojoe

Time for this one:

Some scientists made life in their lab. "Well," they said, "let's go tell God what we just did, 'cause we don't need him anymore." So they went to God & told him what they had done. "Let me see," said God. "OK," said the scientists, and they got out a test tube and reached down for some dirt. "Wait!" said God. "Make your own dirt!"

I'll be damned, now I'm saved.

262 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:47:58pm

re: #253 Dar ul Harb

J'ai toujours fait une prière à Dieu, qui est fort courte. La voici: Mon Dieu, rendez nos ennemis bien ridicules! Dieu m'a exaucé.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it."

--Voltaire (pseud. François-Marie Arouet) to Étienne Noël Damilaville, 16 May 1767

Favorited.

"If you sit by the river long enough, your enemies' bodies will float by on the stream."

263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:48:00pm

Ever used a word wrong?

I used a wrong word. I feel stupid.

But, I'll get over it.

Probably use a stupider word tomorrow.

G'night Elizabeth.

264 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:48:42pm

re: #256 Naso Tang

If there were no boring people, how would you know you were not boring?

I "emceed" a memorial service for two of my friends back in the big dusty. The Chaplain went on a screed about how God had shown us cruelty so that we would know and appreciate mercy. Took all of my military discipline not to grab the mic and bludgeon him with it.

265 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:49:17pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

The most likely source of political violence is going to be from guys like this...
Pastor Of Gun-Toter At Obama Event Prayed For Obama To Die
I have no doubt that the right will try to blame the left. We are playing with fire.

They're already working on that narrative. That's the whole point of whining about ACORN and SEIU and those nasty lefty 'thugs' harassing those peaceful heavily armed rightwingers at town halls.

They're setting it up so any forthcoming violence will be spun as the left's fault.

266 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:49:39pm

re: #225 gatorbait

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

Aaaand, the point goes straight over your head!

For the record, I do not know how to make an amoeba. And I am a long way from a 'scientific genius'.

But I refer you to the scene in "Joan of Aracadia", where Joan demands to see a miracle to justify her faith. God points. "What do you call that?"

"That's a tree."

"Can you make one?"

An amoeba is a miracle. It is also a miracle we can learn a lot about, through the due application of our brains, which are also miracles.

267 wee fury  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:49:44pm

re: #224 Alouette

Chad Mitchell Trio. "Hang on the bell, Nellie"

Found an old album of theirs at a garage sale. This is on it.

268 jaunte  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:50:08pm

re: #254 Sharmuta

The trolls are devolving back to long debunked talking points. How quaint.

Fresh echelons bearing cold stale.

269 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:50:14pm

re: #256 Naso Tang

If there were no boring people, how would you know you were not boring?

Hear the voices in my head
I swear to god it sounds like they're snoring
But if you're bored then you're boring
The agony and the irony, they're killing me

/LIT, I'm Not Sick, But I'm Not Well

270 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:50:25pm

"Though faith is above reason, there can never be a contradiction between faith and science because both originate in God. It is God who gives to us the light both of reason and of faith."

from the compendium of the Catholic catechism, revised 2005. (very new in church time, which is sort of geological).

271 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:50:41pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

The most likely source of political violence is going to be from guys like this...
Pastor Of Gun-Toter At Obama Event Prayed For Obama To Die
I have no doubt that the right will try to blame the left. We are playing with fire.

Careful with that "we", Eugene!

272 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:50:44pm

re: #180 Dark_Falcon

Regrettably, I feel Ron Paul has a partial point on that one. Given the left's history of violence, it can be necessary for conservatives to be prepared to defend themselves if the left decides to get rough. We should never attack or go around brandishing weapons, but we do need to be prepared on some occasions in case we get attacked.

Please explain "the left's history of violence"

273 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:50:58pm

re: #256 Naso Tang

If there were no boring people, how would you know you were not boring?

You'd know because nobody would be boring, including you.

274 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:51:00pm

re: #260 fish

I am not attempting to nor do I ever feel the need to "Justify my Faith" to you or anyone else.

I had no intent to be personal. I am sorry if it came out that way.

Do a search on religious scientists or similar and all you will find is page after page of often dishonest quotes. That is the type of thing I was commenting on.

275 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:51:14pm

re: #265 iceweasel

They're already working on that narrative. That's the whole point of whining about ACORN and SEIU and those nasty lefty 'thugs' harassing those peaceful heavily armed rightwingers at town halls.

They're setting it up so any forthcoming violence will be spun as the left's fault.

Overanalysis all around.

276 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:51:17pm

re: #266 SanFranciscoZionist

Aaaand, the point goes straight over your head!

For the record, I do not know how to make an amoeba. And I am a long way from a 'scientific genius'.

But I refer you to the scene in "Joan of Aracadia", where Joan demands to see a miracle to justify her faith. God points. "What do you call that?"

"That's a tree."

"Can you make one?"

An amoeba is a miracle. It is also a miracle we can learn a lot about, through the due application of our brains, which are also miracles.

Science helps me appreciate just how much of a miracle every miracle is.

277 3 wood  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:51:17pm

By the way, if you live in California, enjoy the new taxes:

Even higher taxes coming for Californians
Lower brackets and reduced deductions mean yet higher payments to Sacramento for 2009.


For only the second time in 30 years, the tax board is lowering the point where each tax bracket begins, bumping many people into a higher category. At the same time, officials are cutting back some deductions. Everyone will pay more, even people whose bracket or income doesn't change.

The extra sums will total as much as $140 per family, on top of the increases previously enacted.

Officials said the latest adjustments have been triggered by inflation, or rather the lack of it. This year, the state's inflation index was a negative numberfor the first time since 1983. When the economy takes a deep plunge, so do tax brackets.

The new changes apply to the 2009 tax year.

In addition to the income tax rate rising 0.25%, the dependent credit was slashed by more than two-thirds. The vehicle license fee nearly doubled to 1.15% of a car's value. The state sales tax climbed 1%.

This summer, lawmakers and Schwarzenegger decided to withhold 10% more from workers' paychecks starting Nov. 1 -- an accounting scheme to collect taxes faster. Under another bookkeeping maneuver, individuals and businesses that make estimated tax payments will pony up more of that money sooner starting in the first half of next year.


And local governments are adding to the burden:


And some local taxes are on the way up. In Los Angeles County, a half-cent-higher sales tax approved by voters took effect in July to fund transportation projects.
278 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:51:45pm

Ah, here we are:


Oh we're meeting at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
You just come in the door and take the first turn to the right
Be careful when you get there, we'd hate to be bereft
But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left

'Cause we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save this country from a communistic plot
We're the John Birch Society, help us swell the ranks
To get this movement started, we need lots of tools and cranks

Now there's no one that's certain that the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did, but he's our hero all the same

Join the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Socialism is the ism dismalist of all
Join the John Birch Society, there's so much to do
Have you heard they're serving vodka at the W.C.T.U.

Well you've heard about the agents that we've already named
Well M.C.A. has agents that are flatly unashamed
We're after Rosie Clooney, we've gotten Pinky Lee
And the day we get Red Skelton won't that be a victory

For we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Norman Vincent Peale may think he's kidding us along
But the John Birch Society knows he spilled the beans
He keeps on preaching brotherhood, but we know what he means

We'll teach you how to spot 'em in the city or the sticks
'Cause even Jasper Junction is just full of Bolsheviks
The CIA's subversive and so's the FCC
There's no one left but thee and we, and we're not sure of thee

Oh we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a Communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society, holding off the Reds
We'll use our hands and hearts, and if we must, we'll use our heads

BRIDGE: (O beautiful, for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain)

spoken: Friends, do you want Justice Warren to be your Commissar?

Do you want Mrs. Khrushchev in there with the DAR?

You cannot trust your neighbors, or even next-of-kin

If mommy is a Commie then you gotta turn her in

To the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the right
Join the John Birch Society, as we're marching on
We'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John
In the John, In the John Birch Society

279 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:51:53pm

re: #254 Sharmuta

The trolls are devolving back to long debunked talking points. How quaint.

I think there's a rotation.

1. Carbon dating no worky!
2. No Transitional forms!
3. Irreducible Complexity!
4. Explain biogenesis Mr. Science guy!!!

3. Just got shot down again, so 4 is up... 1 is on deck and 2 is the hole.

280 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:52:14pm

re: #273 Last Mohican

One of my kids once said "Let's pretend we're bored. The first person to say something interesting loses."

281 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:52:18pm

re: #275 The Shadow Do

Overanalysis all around.

Wow, sounds like there were a LOT of gunfights that I missed out on.

282 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:53:01pm

re: #265 iceweasel

They're already working on that narrative. That's the whole point of whining about ACORN and SEIU and those nasty lefty 'thugs' harassing those peaceful heavily armed rightwingers at town halls.

They're setting it up so any forthcoming violence will be spun as the left's fault.

I mostly agree. There is however, some potential for real leftist violence, and so that threat should not be dismissed. However, i quite concur with your assessment of what those crazies are up to.

283 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:53:04pm

BTW, I see the JBS has upgraded their web site. It now has a, shall I say, more of a Mac style to it... sort of glossy looking.

re: #173 Killgore Trout

Note at 4:39 how Paul dismisses Buckley. Not a lot of love in that crowd for WB.

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:53:51pm

re: #238 Naso Tang

Galileo was a heretic according to his time. You can argue that today he would not be, but that makes him a poor example of a "man of faith" in his age.

I think that makes him an awesome example of a man of faith in his age, but that may just be me.

And the Church has since caught up with him...

285 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:53:55pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Just Say No To Velociraptors

286 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:54:01pm
News outlets that are focusing on the incendiary rhetoric of conservatives outside President Obama's town hall meeting Tuesday ignored the incendiary rhetoric -- and even violence -- of liberals outside an appearance by former President George W. Bush in 2002.

When Bush visited Portland, Ore., for a fundraiser, protesters stalked his motorcade, assailed his limousine and stoned a car containing his advisers. Chanting "Bush is a terrorist!", the demonstrators bullied passers-by, including gay softball players and a wheelchair-bound grandfather with multiple sclerosis.

One protester even brandished a sign that seemed to advocate Bush's assassination. The man held a large photo of Bush that had been doctored to show a gun barrel pressed against his temple.

"BUSH: WANTED, DEAD OR ALIVE," read the placard, which had an X over the word "ALIVE."

Another poster showed Bush's face with the words: "F--- YOU, MOTHERF---ER!"

A third sign urged motorists to "HONK IF YOU HATE BUSH." A fourth declared: "CHRISTIAN FASCISM," with a swastika in place of the letter S in each word.

Although reporters from numerous national news organizations were traveling with Bush and witnessed the protest, none reported that protesters were shrieking at Republican donors epithets like "Slut!" "Whore!" and "Fascists!"

Frank Dulcich, president and CEO of Pacific Seafood Group, had a cup of liquid thrown into his face, and then was surrounded by a group of menacing protesters, including several who wore masks. Donald Tykeson, 75, who had multiple sclerosis and was confined to a wheelchair, was blocked by a thug who threatened him.

Protesters slashed the tires of several state patrol cruisers and leapt onto an occupied police car, slamming the hood and blocking the windshield with placards. A female police officer was knocked to the street by advancing protesters, badly injuring her wrist.

The angry protest grew so violent that the Secret Service was forced to take the highly unusual step of using a backup route for Bush's motorcade because the primary route had been compromised by protesters, one of whom pounded his fist on the president's moving limousine.

All the while, angry demonstrators brandished signs with incendiary rhetoric, such as "9/11 - YOU LET IT HAPPEN, SHRUB," and "BUSH: BASTARD CHILD OF THE SUPREME COURT." One sign read: "IMPEACH THE COURT-APPOINTED JUNTA AND THE FASCIST, EGOMANIACAL, BLOOD-SWILLING BEAST!"

Yet none of these signs were cited in the national media's coverage of the event. By contrast, the press focused extensively on over-the-top signs held by Obama critics at the president's town hall event held Tuesday in New Hampshire.

The lead story in Wednesday's Washington Post, for example, is headlined: "Obama Faces 'Scare Tactics' Head-On." ...


Analysis: Press Largely Ignored Incendiary Rhetoric at Bush Protest
News outlets that are focusing on the incendiary rhetoric of conservatives outside President Obama's town hall meeting Tuesday ignored the incendiary rhetoric -- and even violence -- of liberals outside an appearance by former President George W. Bush in 2002.

287 Simple Voice  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:54:16pm

re: #276 Sharmuta

I am a miracle. Some would say I am a miracle because of something other than God.
Others would say I am a miracle because of God.
Nevertheless, I am a miracle.
(And I am no random accident, either.)

288 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:54:29pm

re: #208 cliffster

Irreducible complexity. Weird. Seems to me like the hoops folks jump through to try and prove that God exists indicates that they are deep down questioning their beliefs. I never really try and find proof that my dog exists, it's kind've a given. For that matter, scientists don't really try and prove that things exist, in the end they just try and characterize the behaviors of things that clearly do.

Exactly. I suspect the same dynamic is at work whenever they try to remove the wall of separation between church and state, or claim that atheists hate America, or any of those behaviours.

If you believe in God, why be so threatened that others don't share your belief? Seems like it wouldn't be a threat to an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient being. I suspect the existence of unbelief is terrifying to certain believers because it raises their own doubts.

289 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:55:12pm

re: #279 ArchangelMichael

I think there's a rotation.

1. Carbon dating no worky!
2. No Transitional forms!
3. Irreducible Complexity!
4. Explain biogenesis Mr. Science guy!!!

3. Just got shot down again, so 4 is up... 1 is on deck and 2 is the hole.

They have a 12-sided die!

I rolled a 7! The ol' Thermodynamics canard- woohoo!

290 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:55:25pm

re: #277 3 wood

If they keep this up the Golden State may some day be the new appalachia. Very progressive response to hard times though!

291 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:55:49pm

re: #287 Simple Voice

I am a miracle. Some would say I am a miracle because of something other than God.
Others would say I am a miracle because of God.
Nevertheless, I am a miracle.
(And I am no random accident, either.)

Same- my parents had me on purpose.

292 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:56:04pm

re: #272 keithgabryelski

Please explain "the left's history of violence"

The beating of an unarmed demonstrator by SEIU thugs, the Weather Underground, Seattle 1999. I could keep going.

293 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:56:27pm

re: #265 iceweasel

They're already working on that narrative. That's the whole point of whining about ACORN and SEIU and those nasty lefty 'thugs' harassing those peaceful heavily armed rightwingers at town halls.

They're setting it up so any forthcoming violence will be spun as the left's fault.

Reaching a bit far, don't you think? The "whole point of whining" about SEIU and ACORN (now called COMINTERN, or some such thing) is pretty legitimate, wouldn't you say?
Be careful where you wave the Crazy. You'll put an eye out. If you wish to spin grand-design conspiracy theories, here's one: the Left can only win with the assumption of room temperature by certain folks.
"Paint a Vulgar Picture" -- Smiths.

At the record company meeting
On their hands - a dead star
And oh, the plans they weave
And oh, the sickening greed

At the record company party
On their hands - a dead star
The sycophantic slags all say :
"I knew him first, and I knew him well"


Re-issue ! Re-package ! Re-package !
Re-evaluate the songs
Double-pack with a photograph
Extra Track (and a tacky badge)


A-list, playlist
"Please them , please them !"
"Please them !"
(sadly, THIS was your life)


But you could have said no
If you'd wanted to
You could have said no
If you'd wanted to

294 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:56:36pm

re: #225 gatorbait

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

To what end? We are talking about evolution (traits passed down through inheritance) not the idea that life started through some chemical reaction, that is called abiogenesis.

Let's focus on the subject at hand: Irreducible Complexity, proposed as a way to disprove evolution fails again. This is not the first time it has failed, it will not be the last time.

295 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:57:03pm

Also on the JBS website... their four top stories have tag lines that sound like they came right out of Glenn Beck's playbook:

"Communists work to keep US Defenses out of space"

"Kissinger still wants world government"

"La Raza has new stealth campaign..."

/fortunately, my bodily fluids are still pure

296 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:57:35pm

Pee Wee soccer quote of the day (I promise no more than two a week):

"Joey, please stop sucking on the goal."

297 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:57:38pm

Time to retire. Good night.

298 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:59:43pm

re: #289 Sharmuta

They have a 12-sided die!

I rolled a 7! The ol' Thermodynamics canard- woohoo!

Yeah I know there's more than 4 talking points, I couldn't remember the others fast enough to be funny.

I can't believe I forgot about the Thermodynamics one too. That one is a hoot.

299 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 7:59:58pm

re: #271 Cato the Elder

Careful with that "we", Eugene!

Wear it, Nancy. God knows you're all over it on FB.

300 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:00:28pm

re: #265 iceweasel

They're already working on that narrative. That's the whole point of whining about ACORN and SEIU and those nasty lefty 'thugs' harassing those peaceful heavily armed rightwingers at town halls.

They're setting it up so any forthcoming violence will be spun as the left's fault.

"They?" Who's "they?" The vast right wing conspiracy?

No. There really are people from left wing organizations being brought into town hall meetings, in an organized way, to fill auditoriums with friendly crowds, drown out criticism, and make it look as though support for Obamacare is nearly unanimous by repeating the talking points to the press, and trying to prevent members of congress from hearing opposing messages. Some of these people are thugs who have gotten violent.

And then there are lots of right-wingers who are angry about Obamacare, some whipped into a frenzy by Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and their lying ilk. Some just because of valid concerns. And then there are serious fruitcakes who aren't particularly concerned about health care at all, but just like to bring guns to stuff and see how threatening they can get away with being.

When violent SEIU thugs meet up with crazed gun rights extremists, both egged on by their respective eggers ("punch back twice as hard," "water the tree of liberty"...) something bad is gonna happen eventually.

301 Coracle  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:00:43pm

re: #295 freetoken

Mix 'n Match. One from Group A, One from Group B:

A
"Communists work to keep"
"Kissinger still wants"
"La Raza has new"

B
"US Defenses out of space"
"world government"
"stealth campaign..."

302 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:00:49pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Same- my parents had me on purpose.


I was born 15 months after my sister. I asked my mother once if I was an accident.

She told me that I was a "surprise."

(I gave them less grief than her.)

303 shortshrift  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:01:25pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

My religion has no dogma that states that scientific discoveries be ignored or invalidated. Neither do many others, including branches of Christianity.

(OK, granted, Judaism hardly even has a dogma, we're more about the praxis, but you see what I mean.)

Judaism does not have a dogma. It is a dogma. It may be the least incoherent of the monotheisms, but it is inescapably dogmatic. It is also a system of law. The generations of exegesis on the dogma and its relevance to practical life does not lift it out of dogma. It has certainly managed to keep up with, if not actually bring about, cultural progress but God is there, more or less reformed, inescapably.
Of course one can be a Jew and an atheist - as I am.

304 VioletTiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:01:44pm

re: #228 Racer X

Why would you want to be an amoeba?


Would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
Or would you like to stay how you are
Or would you rather be
An amoeba?

305 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:01:47pm

re: #277 3 wood

Want to know what America will look like in a few years? Look at California. The politicians are out of control.

306 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:02:17pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Same- my parents had me on purpose.

Okay. My sister had her sixth child. We were putting a new roof on the house. Dad came out and said, "Sarah had her baby!"

My uncle (up there with us) said (sarcastically), "Has she figured out what caused it?"

Dad (being deaf as a post, didn't hear him and) said, "19 inches, 7 pounds!"

I have fallen off of a roof once in my life.

307 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:02:39pm

re: #300 Last Mohican

When violent SEIU thugs meet up with crazed gun rights extremists, both egged on by their respective eggers ("punch back twice as hard," "water the tree of liberty"...) something bad is gonna happen eventually.

You can't possibly be equating SEIU members with right-wing gun extremists, are you?
/

308 3 wood  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:02:44pm

re: #290 The Shadow Do

If they keep this up the Golden State may some day be the new appalachia. Very progressive response to hard times though!

California is the happy hunting ground for corporate recruiters looking to get talent and companies to move.


Guess where they are moving to?

States with no income tax, like Nevada, Texas and Florida.

Think our politicians in Washington might get a lesson from that?

Nah.

309 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:04:11pm

re: #278 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, here we are:

We'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John

Kinky.
--Headly Lamarr, "Blazing Saddles"

310 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:04:57pm

re: #302 EmmmieG

I was born 15 months after my sister. I asked my mother once if I was an accident.

She told me that I was a "surprise."

(I gave them less grief than her.)

The first child can come at any time. After that, they all take nine months.

311 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:05:04pm

re: #307 Walter L. Newton

You can't possibly be equating SEIU members with right-wing gun extremists, are you?
/

I have NEVER belonged to the SEIU.

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:05:10pm

re: #303 shortshrift

Judaism does not have a dogma. It is a dogma. It may be the least incoherent of the monotheisms, but it is inescapably dogmatic. It is also a system of law. The generations of exegesis on the dogma and its relevance to practical life does not lift it out of dogma. It has certainly managed to keep up with, if not actually bring about, cultural progress but God is there, more or less reformed, inescapably.
Of course one can be a Jew and an atheist - as I am.

"Athiest, shmathiest, that's no reason not to go to shul and daven."

313 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:05:58pm

re: #244 haakondahl

I think that people who know everything are boring. And, presumably, bored.

314 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:06:21pm

re: #310 haakondahl

The first child can come at any time. After that, they all take nine months.

According to sharia law, a pregnancy can take up to three years.

(I am NOT volunteering for that pregnancy.)

315 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:06:41pm

re: #231 Killgore Trout

Cool story and the possible applications for the science are awesome. But I think the phrase artificial life in the headline is misleading. The life is not artificial as in fake or man-made. The thing was already alive. The artificial life is the result of rebooting. Actually I bet some people would take their chances at a reboot.

The success suggests that methylating the synthetic genome before transfer should allow it to take over host cells and reboot them with its DNA. Experiments in this have now begun.
316 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:06:47pm

Even a hydrogen atom is a miracle.

Goodnight all.

317 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:07:22pm

re: #314 EmmmieG

According to sharia law, a pregnancy can take up to three years.

Just exactly how would that work, one wonders?

318 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:07:52pm

re: #308 3 wood

California is the happy hunting ground for corporate recruiters looking to get talent and companies to move.


Guess where they are moving to?

States with no income tax, like Nevada, Texas and Florida.

Think our politicians in Washington might get a lesson from that?

Nah.

The politicians never ever learn. If there is hope it is with the people - or at least enough of them to get the picture. Hope and change, that's me!

319 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:08:05pm

re: #316 Ojoe

Even a hydrogen atom is a miracle.

Goodnight all.

If you split the atom, is that a semiracle?

320 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:08:13pm

Exploring the new JBS website... I see they now have something called "Birchtube" [yuucch], which is of course a bunch of videos (linked to youtube videos.)

On the front page of the Birchtube site is a video called "Tornado In A Junkyard" with a description of:


James Perloff on America's Future Windham Cable TV -21 destroys the Relentless Myth of Darwinism. Obtain the 28 min full length video for showing in your public school or homeschool classroom.

Here is the video btw:


/just wanted to show that my ranting about the JBS is not off topic of this thread!

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:08:19pm

re: #304 VioletTiger

Would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
Or would you like to stay how you are
Or would you rather be
An amoeba?

There's a poem, and I can't seem to find it on the web. I remember fragments:

When we were a soft amoeba,
In ages past and gone,
Ere you were the Queen of Sheba,
Or I King Solomon,

something, something, something,

Anon came separation,
By something and divorce,
A lonely paramecium,
I journeyed on my course.

Does anyone know the middle bit?

322 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:08:30pm

re: #254 Sharmuta

The trolls are devolving back to long debunked talking points. How quaint.

Its a Whac a Mole game that never ends.

323 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:08:36pm

re: #317 J.D.

Just exactly how would that work, one wonders?

When the husband has been away for two and a half years.

324 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:08:37pm

re: #300 Last Mohican

"They?" Who's "they?" The vast right wing conspiracy?

When violent SEIU thugs meet up with crazed gun rights extremists, both egged on by their respective eggers ("punch back twice as hard," "water the tree of liberty"...) something bad is gonna happen eventually.

Totally agree with that. Bad times.
And no, not the vast right wing conspiracy...the mutterings of some of the more crazed right, Freepers, HotAir, various places. It's bleeding into the mainstream slowly: this notion that the gunbringers are perfectly justified and doing nothing at all wrong. It'll set up a narrative for how it's all the left's fault if something happens.

(N.B. : I'm not saying that it will be the fault of the right when something happens. I don't consider those loons to be part of the real right.)

325 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:08:49pm

re: #229 Walter L. Newton

re: #242 cliffster

I'm actually interested in hearing your response...

326 VioletTiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:09:27pm

This was Brit in Japan's rendition of the creationist flounce.
Time to walk your giraffe, people.

327 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:09:48pm

re: #283 freetoken

I noticed that too.

328 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:09:58pm

re: #317 J.D.

Just exactly how would that work, one wonders?

It works by declaring it so, then you don't have to stone a divorcee or widow who has a baby two years after her husband's death or departure.

This is one time I'm in favor of a provision of sharia law.

329 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:10:05pm

re: #322 Mich-again

Its a Whac a Mole game that never ends.

My 12-sided die came up with a 4- the hitler canard!

330 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:10:14pm

re: #306 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Seven pounds, twelve ounces!"

"Is that a baby or a turkey?"

"Er, a baby."

"That's a good-sized baby. It'd be a small turkey."

331 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:10:51pm

re: #319 haakondahl

If you split the atom, is that a semiracle?

No, it's an earth-shattering kaboom!

332 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:11:03pm

re: #319 haakondahl

Like half of infinity.

Good night all

probably really ...

333 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:11:33pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

The beating of an unarmed demonstrator by SEIU thugs, the Weather Underground, Seattle 1999. I could keep going.

mere cherry picking. There is no consistent history of "left violence" trying to oppress conservatives.

It's time for conservatives to reign in the wackos that are courting violence (and Ron Paul is dancing that line in your quote) BEFORE they look at the much smaller and much more infrequent issues of violence from the left.

High order bits first.

334 3 wood  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:11:38pm

Hold on to your cellphones, here come the Fed's to "help":

Regulators Announce Probe of US Wireless Industry

U.S. regulators launched an inquiry on Thursday into competition in the wireless industry, a step that could lead to probes of other sectors.

The Federal Communications Commission issued a notice of inquiry as part of a congressionally mandated annual assessment of the industry, which is dominated by Verizon Wireless, AT&T , Sprint Nextel and T-Mobile, a unit of Deutsche Telekom.

Verizon Wireless is a joint venture between Verizon Communications and Vodafone Group. The inquiry comes as the FCC is examining exclusive deals between handset makers and carriers, such the one making AT&T the sole U.S. service provider for Apple popular iPhone.

Exclusive deals are common among the biggest carriers but have recently faced strong opposition from rural carriers, which say they lack the clout to make deals to carry the most popular phones.


Why do I have a sinking feeling that the Fed's are going to screw things up?

335 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:12:55pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

My 12-sided die came up with a 4- the hitler canard!

I have no idea what you are talking about.

336 solomonpanting  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:13:29pm

re: #334 3 wood

How many times is AT&T going to be broken up?

337 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:14:17pm

re: #314 EmmmieG

According to sharia law, a pregnancy can take up to three years.

(I am NOT volunteering for that pregnancy.)

Well, elephants go 22 months.

Some of the stuff in the Talmud about reproduction is quite weird as well. And at least one scholar of the Italian Renaissance wrote quite seriously that a white couple could have a black child, merely if the wife, say, admired a black man riding in a military parade, and hoped her child would be such a fine soldier.


One assumes that this last one led to, at least, peace in a few homes.

338 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:14:17pm

re: #334 3 wood

Hold on to your cellphones, here come the Fed's to "help":

Regulators Announce Probe of US Wireless Industry

U.S. regulators launched an inquiry on Thursday into competition in the wireless industry, a step that could lead to probes of other sectors.


Why do I have a sinking feeling that the Fed's are going to screw things up?

Because everything the government sticks their nose in turns to shit.

339 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:14:20pm

re: #336 solomonpanting

How many times is AT&T going to be broken up?

Until it finds closure?

340 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:14:28pm

re: #333 keithgabryelski

It's time for conservatives to reign in the wackos that are courting violence (and Ron Paul is dancing that line in your quote) BEFORE they look at the much smaller and much more infrequent issues of violence from the left.

Not to mention that the extremists on the left are dormant now, because we have a Dem admin. Right wing nuts are always active during a dem admin, just as the left will pop back out of the woodwork under a Repub admin.
The rightwing extremists are getting the attention now for the simple fact that they're more active now.

341 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:14:49pm
Richard Dawkins explains how the distribution of life on Earth's continents and islands is exactly as we should expect if life evolved, and exactly how we should not expect if it had been created.

[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

342 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:14:52pm

re: #323 haakondahl

When the husband has been away for two and a half years.


re: #328 EmmmieG

It works by declaring it so, then you don't have to stone a divorcee or widow who has a baby two years after her husband's death or departure.

This is one time I'm in favor of a provision of sharia law.

Ooooh.

343 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:15:00pm

re: #335 Mich-again

Sorry- see #289.

344 drogheda  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:15:12pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

The most likely source of political violence is going to be from guys like this...
Pastor Of Gun-Toter At Obama Event Prayed For Obama To Die
I have no doubt that the right will try to blame the left. We are playing with fire.

So that pastor doesn't like Obama? Not surprising. He's not very fond of the Border Patrol. He sort of provoked them and got tazed a little bit for his trouble. You can find several clips about him on YouTube. Appears the incident also made it onto CNN.

345 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:16:04pm

re: #334 3 wood

I see a lot of cash heading to the DNC from the telecom sector. To help the little people of course.

346 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:16:21pm

re: #334 3 wood

Who gave all the airwave frequencies to the FCC so they could sell them off? Is the visible light spectrum next on the auction block?

347 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:17:23pm

re: #325 cliffster

re: #242 cliffster

I'm actually interested in hearing your response...

There's nothing to respond to. A scientist starts to "feel" something, I can't dispute what he feels. What does that prove. It proves he feels something, nothing more, nothing less.

348 Altermite  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:17:56pm

re: #341 Jimmah

[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

Any minute now, someone is going to say how they don't have any use for Dawkins, on account of him being so aggressive or arrogant or some such, despite their opinion of him having almost entirely formed by hearsay.

349 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:18:00pm

Facebook better watch out, The ACLU is after them

350 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:20:15pm

Way OT.

I am a big proponent of coastal nuclear reactors producing desalinated water, electricity for the grid, and fuel cell supply of hydrogen and oxygen.
Neverminding the political hurdles, the problems I see with this are the temperature and salinity of the water discharged back to the ocean. Any thoughts?

351 3 wood  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:20:34pm

Top 5 holders of US debt

5. Other Investors
Although the most recent numbers for this category are from December 2008, this extremely diverse group includes individuals, government-sponsored enterprises, brokers and dealers, bank personal trusts, estates, corporate and non-corporate businesses for a total of $629.7 billion. Interestingly, the level of investment from "Other" investors has more than doubled from June 2008-December 2008, the largest 6 month swing for this group in the past 10 years

4. Japan
Another major US trade partner, Japan holds a huge amount of the country’s debt, with a stunning $711.8 billion. As recently as August 2008, Japan held the more US debt than any other country, but currently holds the #2 spot, as far as foreign governments are concerned.

3. China (Mainland)
The buzz word in the market for US debt is China. The world’s most populous country is also the largest and most important international buyer of US debt. From June 2008 to it's all-time high in May 2009 of $801.5 billion, China had raised its stake in US debt by over $266 billion. Receding back to $776.4 billion in June, China’s holdings were still up $241.3 billion from a year earlier. Hong Kong, which is not included in China's total, holds an additional $99.8 billion.

2. Mutual Funds
According to the Federal Reserve, mutual funds hold the second largest amount of US debt compared to any other group. Including money market funds, mutual funds and closed-end funds, this group of investments manages approximately $769.1 billion of US Treasury securities.

1. Federal Reserve and US Intragovernmental Holdings
That’s right, the biggest holder of US government debt is actually inside the United States. The Federal Reserve system of banks and other US intragovernmental holdings account for a stunning $4.785 trillion in US Treasury debt. This is the most recent number available (March 2009), which is down from the all-time high of $4.806 trillion in December 2008. However, this does not account for additional Federal Reserve investments occuring in the summer of 2009. About a decade ago, the total government holdings were "only" $2.5 trillion.

352 FrogMarch  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:21:02pm

PJ O'Rourke - heh.

Accompanying the Perlstein screed was a sidebar by Alec MacGillis explaining how "health care reform is not that hard to understand, and those who tell you otherwise most likely have an ulterior motive."

All you town hall hecklers, calm down and go home. Never mind that Alec MacGillis is a rat, something that's evident by the sixth sentence of his piece: "Fixing [health care] could be very simple: a single-payer system." And never mind that his writing is more than uninformative, it is informationally subtractive. Read him and you'll know less than you know now about what the government is going to do to you and your doctor. Read him carefully and you'll know nothing.

and more...

Perlstein, for all the highness of his dudgeon, doesn't catch the nuts saying anything very nutty. The closest he gets to a lunatic quote is from a "libertarian" wearing a holstered pistol who declares that the "tree of liberty
must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of tyrants and patriots." And those are the words of lefty icon Thomas Jefferson. I myself could point out the absurdity of protestors' concerns about government euthanasia committees. Federal bureaucracy has never moved fast enough to get to the ill and elderly before natural causes do. And what's with those "birthers"? Why their obsession with a nonentity like Obama? How about John Adams with his Alien and Sedition Acts choke-hold on the First Amendment? Or Jefferson? He could tell his Monica Lewinsky, "I own you," and he wasn't kidding. Or John Quincy Adams, pulling the original Blagojevich, buying the presidency from Henry Clay? Or that backwoods Bolshevik Andrew Jackson? Or William Henry Harrison, too dumb to come in out of the rain? Not one of these scallywags was born in the United States of America--look it up.

353 3 wood  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:21:05pm

re: #336 solomonpanting

How many times is AT&T going to be broken up?

Good question :)

354 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:21:07pm

re: #325 cliffster

re: #242 cliffster

I'm actually interested in hearing your response...

Are you saying that you want your opinions refuted scientifically?

355 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:21:36pm

re: #350 haakondahl

Dry the high salinity effluent and sell the salt.

356 3 wood  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:22:49pm

re: #346 Mich-again

Is the visible light spectrum next on the auction block?

I think radio is next on the hit list.

357 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:24:10pm

re: #356 3 wood

I think radio is next on the hit list.

Will the demand for "diversity" in ownership be the new code for the Fairness Doctrine?

358 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:24:17pm

re: #299 haakondahl

Wear it, Nancy. God knows you're all over it on FB.

Huh? Me too stupid. 'Splain.

359 3 wood  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:24:18pm

Good night.

360 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:24:25pm

Wow... anarchists now infiltrating LGF.

361 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:24:44pm

re: #347 Walter L. Newton

There's nothing to respond to. A scientist starts to "feel" something, I can't dispute what he feels. What does that prove. It proves he feels something, nothing more, nothing less.

You say feel, I say observe. You see, hear, feel, and all those observations play into how you interpret the universe. You think that a person that believes in God has questionable scientific skills; I say that someone who discards what they observe because they "believe God doesn't exist" is the epitome of non-science.

362 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:25:13pm

ORIGINAL PEARL HARBOR PHOTOS

Supposedly just recently found.

363 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:25:36pm

re: #355 Dan G.

Dry the high salinity effluent and sell the salt.

Hmmm. If you apply a hard enough vacuum to hot vapor, will the salt simply rain out of the steam (not vapor)?

364 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:25:59pm

OT for any iPhone users. The new Facebook app rocks. Just released today. A quantum leap forward.

365 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:26:40pm

re: #362 Racer X

ORIGINAL PEARL HARBOR PHOTOS

Supposedly just recently found.

Damn Germans.

366 3 wood  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:26:49pm

re: #357 MandyManners

Will the demand for "diversity" in ownership be the new code for the Fairness Doctrine?

That and setting "local" standards. I suspect that the standard will be have 75% hard left wingers and 25% moderate lefties, in other words NPR everywhere. .

367 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:27:06pm

re: #354 haakondahl

Are you saying that you want your opinions refuted scientifically?

Nope, I actually want Walter to justify his statement that a scientist who believes in God is necessarily bad at what he/she does. Well, maybe some paraphrasing there.

368 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:27:35pm

re: #362 Racer X

ORIGINAL PEARL HARBOR PHOTOS

Supposedly just recently found.

Good find, but several of them are not newly seen. At least two of them are in a book on WWII that my father bought me back in 1990.

369 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:28:05pm

re: #363 haakondahl

Have to think about that...

370 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:28:39pm

re: #366 3 wood

That and setting "local" standards. I suspect that the standard will be have 75% hard left wingers and 25% moderate lefties, in other words NPR everywhere. .

Hopefully they'll learn a lesson when the lawsuit sees their standards thrown out. Probably not, though.

371 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:28:40pm

re: #272 keithgabryelski

Please explain "the left's history of violence"


Look up the bombings in the 60's. Then the Black Panthers, Then the Mau-Mau movement. Check out the union organizers of the 30's. Of course there's "che" and "fidel". The worship of Mao, with his "little red book"...largest published mass murderer in the modern age. Stalin. Lenin. Tree spikers. Shining Path. The macheteros in Puerto Rico?..or was it Mexico? The word "radical' used to mean something. As did "revolution.

You were kidding, right?

372 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:28:43pm

re: #361 cliffster

You say feel, I say observe. You see, hear, feel, and all those observations play into how you interpret the universe. You think that a person that believes in God has questionable scientific skills; I say that someone who discards what they observe because they "believe God doesn't exist" is the epitome of non-science.

I said I question his scientific skills, that's the epitome of science and critical thinking.

373 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:29:00pm

re: #352 FrogMarch

If, last Sunday, you spent a profitless hour reading the Washington Post (itself not too profitable),


lol

374 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:29:30pm

re: #225 gatorbait

I would like to see one of you scientific geniuses make me an amoeba in a test tube from all of its basic elements.

What for? You'll just move the goal posts once that is accomplished.

375 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:30:19pm

re: #363 haakondahl

The initial premise is based on the fact that when harvesting salt from salt water, as it dries, the solution concentration of saline increases as the water is evaporated away. In the case you mentioned, the effluent would already be well on its way to being dried (i.e. less water per unit salt).

376 OldLineTexan  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:30:26pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

My 12-sided die came up with a 4- the hitler canard!

You may have accidentally rolled your BDS die ...

377 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:30:32pm

re: #366 3 wood

That and setting "local" standards. I suspect that the standard will be have 75% hard left wingers and 25% moderate lefties, in other words NPR everywhere. .

Or, Pacifica Radio.

378 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:30:43pm

re: #348 Altermite

Any minute now, someone is going to say how they don't have any use for Dawkins, on account of him being so aggressive or arrogant or some such, despite their opinion of him having almost entirely formed by hearsay.

I think the person most likely to pull that one is logged off at the moment, but I'll do my best to fill in in his absence:

"Of course any fool can see that the creationists are silly, but what really incenses me is the idiocy and contempt shown by the rabidly anti-religious zealots of the scientific elite who are every bit as irrational in their blind hatred for the God they claim not to believe in as the creationists themselves"

379 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:31:59pm

Nighty-night, Lizards!

380 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:33:02pm

re: #372 Walter L. Newton

I said I question his scientific skills, that's the epitome of science and critical thinking.

That's a deflection and you know it. But, you're smart and you get my point, so whatever.

381 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:35:00pm

re: #314 EmmmieG

According to sharia law, a pregnancy can take up to three years.

(I am NOT volunteering for that pregnancy.)

Let me guess, Mohammed's wife gave birth after he was away for three years. Rather than honor kill her, he declared...

382 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:36:35pm

re: #360 freetoken

Wow... anarchists now infiltrating LGF.

I'm missing something.

383 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:36:58pm

re: #357 MandyManners

Will the demand for "diversity" in ownership be the new code for the Fairness Doctrine?

Not diversity in ownership. Diversity in hiring and all practices. IMO the word is code for control.

384 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:37:40pm

re: #383 unrealizedviewpoint

Not diversity in ownership. Diversity in hiring and all practices. IMO the word is code for control.

Concur.

385 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:38:23pm

re: #382 Sharmuta

Questioning why the EM spectrum needs to be controlled. Upstream a bit. Also, the very idea that the gov't might use its power to break up monopolies appears to appall some lizards.

386 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:38:37pm

re: #383 unrealizedviewpoint

Not diversity in ownership. Diversity in hiring and all practices. IMO the word is code for control.

It's not "code" at all. It just is.

387 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:38:43pm

re: #381 Alouette

This exchange brought to mind this scene from "The History of the World"

The Old Testament

388 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:40:53pm

re: #377 MandyManners

Or, Pacifica Radio.

Here's Hugh Hewitt as a lefty radio host. If you haven't heard this, get ready to scream laughing.
one fascinating bit is the inputs you can hear him getting from his productons staff. Fantastic teamwork to produce this goofily chilling satire.

389 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:41:35pm

re: #340 iceweasel

Not to mention that the extremists on the left are dormant now, because we have a Dem admin. Right wing nuts are always active during a dem admin, just as the left will pop back out of the woodwork under a Repub admin.
The rightwing extremists are getting the attention now for the simple fact that they're more active now.

That begs the position that extremists on either side are equally violent. That just isn't true. It isn't even close.

What is even is the amount of crazy both sides coax from the edges. But give me a good ole fashioned tempeh eating pink wearing fool who denies the benefits of nuclear power because of false concerns on the issues of waste

Over

anyone that advocates violence against doctors that provide a protected service to women, bring weapons to presidential events "just because they can" advocating for the refreshment of the tree of liberty, or condone/use violence against their fellow citizens because of some perceived distruction of America by people who are slightly to the left of them.

390 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:42:20pm

re: #380 cliffster

That's a deflection and you know it. But, you're smart and you get my point, so whatever.

Then you read my answers above and figure it out for yourself. You shouldn't need my support for your beliefs, so I don't know why you would be so concerned if I understand you or not?

391 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:43:36pm

re: #382 Sharmuta

Note too that the bone I threw out was intentionally hyberbole... to see if I could get 3wood or Mich-again to engage.

392 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:44:50pm

re: #390 Walter L. Newton

Then you read my answers above and figure it out for yourself. You shouldn't need my support for your beliefs, so I don't know why you would be so concerned if I understand you or not?

I don't. Just a little debate with someone that made a statement that I found illogical.

393 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:45:47pm

re: #371 swamprat

Look up the bombings in the 60's. Then the Black Panthers, Then the Mau-Mau movement. Check out the union organizers of the 30's. Of course there's "che" and "fidel". The worship of Mao, with his "little red book"...largest published mass murderer in the modern age. Stalin. Lenin. Tree spikers. Shining Path. The macheteros in Puerto Rico?..or was it Mexico? The word "radical' used to mean something. As did "revolution.

You were kidding, right?

We're talking about current day America. Check the thread.
Ron Paul backhandedly advocates for the preparation of violence because of some percieved threat of violence from the left (in America)

that is a crazy distortion of reality.

394 van helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:46:05pm

re: #389 keithgabryelski

That begs the position that extremists on either side are equally violent. That just isn't true. It isn't even close.

True about both sides.
However, it would be unwise to forget about the Weather Underground, Black Panthers, SLA, and other wannabe 'revolutionaries'.

395 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:46:28pm

re: #387 Dan G.

This exchange brought to mind this scene from "The History of the World"

The Old Testament

I love that movie.

396 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:46:55pm

re: #392 cliffster

I don't. Just a little debate with someone that made a statement that I found illogical.

I understand. That's the problem with belief, it's illogical.

397 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:47:04pm

re: #391 freetoken

too busy to engage. Still reading up on the 12-sided die.

398 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:47:27pm

re: #395 Alouette

One of my all-time favorites.

399 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:48:21pm

Here's Hugh Hewitt doing debate Prep with Zack Lahn, the young man who challenged President Obama to an "Oxford-Style" debate. Hugh stands in for the President.

400 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:48:27pm

Anyone following that horrifying kidnapping story out of El Dorado, CA today? It's the American Josef Fritzl story, but at least this a-hole isn't going to survive a week in prison in this country. Thing is, he sure does resemble a lot of the freaks pushing creationism and stuff. Thank god for prison star chambers. My god. I don't know who had it worse - Elizabeth Fritzl or Jaycee Dugard. At least Elizabeth had made it to 18 before her ordeal. Jaycee was 11 and is probably illiterate. I'm ashamed to be male. Men are responsible for so much shit in this world it's ridiculous. And what's even more ridiculous is that we could eliminate these bastards from the face of the Earth if it weren't for women being so anti-death penalty.

401 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:48:41pm

re: #389 keithgabryelski

That begs the position that extremists on either side are equally violent. That just isn't true. It isn't even close.

What is even is the amount of crazy both sides coax from the edges. But give me a good ole fashioned tempeh eating pink wearing fool who denies the benefits of nuclear power because of false concerns on the issues of waste

Over

anyone that advocates violence against doctors that provide a protected service to women, bring weapons to presidential events "just because they can" advocating for the refreshment of the tree of liberty, or condone/use violence against their fellow citizens because of some perceived distruction of America by people who are slightly to the left of them.

That is a false distinction. The union and ACORN thugs of the left are quite real and to simply dismiss them as harmless is folly.

402 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:48:51pm

re: #399 haakondahl

Care to clarify your "Nancy" quip?

403 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:49:58pm

re: #389 keithgabryelski

I completely agree with you, btw. There isn't any comparison.

404 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:50:46pm

re: #389 keithgabryelski

re: #272 keithgabryelski

Please explain "the left's history of violence"

Chris Carver, a radical in the 60s who went underground after a series of robberies and bombings

the Weathermen, used bombings as a means to effect radical ...

'60s radical Kathy Boudin, convicted in the 1981 Brinks heist ...

Symbionese Liberation Army member Sara Jane Olson

George Jackson Brigade named after a black power radical killed in prison

405 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:50:46pm

re: #361 cliffster

You say feel, I say observe. You see, hear, feel, and all those observations play into how you interpret the universe. You think that a person that believes in God has questionable scientific skills; I say that someone who discards what they observe because they "believe God doesn't exist" is the epitome of non-science.

Are you using "feel" to mean tactical perception, or are you using it in the emotive sense? Because if it is in the later sense you are confounding perceptions (which are observations) and ones reactions to perceptions (which are NOT scientific observations, they are at most introspection).

406 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:51:49pm

re: #397 Mich-again

too busy to engage. Still reading up on the 12-sided die.

I rolled a 9. The Historical Figure of My Choice was a Creationist canard.

407 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:51:53pm

re: #400 SFGoth

Ahem... his wife was an active participant; she was the one seen snatching the girl.

408 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:51:57pm

re: #404 swamprat

re: #272 keithgabryelski

Chris Carver, a radical in the 60s who went underground after a series of robberies and bombings

the Weathermen, used bombings as a means to effect radical ...

'60s radical Kathy Boudin, convicted in the 1981 Brinks heist ...

Symbionese Liberation Army member Sara Jane Olson

George Jackson Brigade named after a black power radical killed in prison

Examples from decades ago.

409 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:52:22pm

re: #400 SFGoth

Would you mind adding "some" in front of "women being so anti-death penalty"?

410 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:52:35pm

re: #404 swamprat

re: #389 keithgabryelski

re: #272 keithgabryelski

Please explain "the left's history of violence"


Anarchists of most every type active at any multi-national meeting.

411 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:52:36pm

re: #396 Walter L. Newton

I understand. That's the problem with belief, it's illogical.

If it were just about blind belief, then yes it would be quite illogical. I think the people who stumble over themselves to provide "proof", or try to convert people, or indoctrinate their neighbor's kids, are actually lacking in "belief". Rational people who just sense the presence are truly believers. And rational people who don't, well they are atheists.

412 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:52:55pm

re: #393 keithgabryelski

We're talking about current day America. Check the thread.
Ron Paul backhandedly advocates for the preparation of violence because of some percieved threat of violence from the left (in America)

that is a crazy distortion of reality.

You said "history". You got it. If you want to ask about now, that is different. Left is goody two shoes, my ass.

413 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:53:12pm

re: #389 keithgabryelski

That begs the position that extremists on either side are equally violent. That just isn't true. It isn't even close.

What is even is the amount of crazy both sides coax from the edges. But give me a good ole fashioned tempeh eating pink wearing fool who denies the benefits of nuclear power because of false concerns on the issues of waste

Over

anyone that advocates violence against doctors that provide a protected service to women, bring weapons to presidential events "just because they can" advocating for the refreshment of the tree of liberty, or condone/use violence against their fellow citizens because of some perceived distruction of America by people who are slightly to the left of them.

I'm surprised and a little bit shocked that anyone here would disagree with, nevermind downding this post, I have to say.

414 SteveC  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:53:15pm

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

"That's a good-sized baby. It'd be a small turkey."

The church wanted a new sign, had set up a fund, and finally had the required amount. They had decided on the proper size for the sign and after much discussion, voted on the proper bible verse to be written on the sign. The pastor was going to catch the train to New York City and *personally* order the sign.

Somewhere in the trip he lost the sheet of paper with the size and verse. He sent a telegram back home that read LOST NOTES. FORWARD DIMENSIONS AND VERSE TO ME CARE OF HOTEL.

The desk clerk's hand was shaking as he handed the pastor his telegram: FOR UNTO YOU THIS DAY IS BORN A CHILD SIX FOOT LONG FOUR FOOT HIGH.

415 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:53:18pm

re: #389 keithgabryelski

I enjoyed your collation of the Health Care Issue. Thanks. Its real good work that I hope you maintain and expand.

But it appears that in this issue you are belittling the danger from the left while aggrandizing the danger from the right.

416 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:53:24pm

re: #405 Dan G.

Are you using "feel" to mean tactical perception, or are you using it in the emotive sense? Because if it is in the later sense you are confounding perceptions (which are observations) and ones reactions to perceptions (which are NOT scientific observations, they are at most introspection).

The former. As in, one of the senses.

417 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:54:08pm
418 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:54:09pm

re: #400 SFGoth

And what's even more ridiculous is that we could eliminate these bastards from the face of the Earth if it weren't for women being so anti-death penalty.

I dinged you down for this. I know plenty of women who support the death penalty, and plenty of men who don't. It's an ideological divide, not one based on gender.

419 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:54:18pm

re: #378 Jimmah

I think the person most likely to pull that one is logged off at the moment, but I'll do my best to fill in in his absence:

"Of course any fool can see that the creationists are silly, but what really incenses me is the idiocy and contempt shown by the rabidly anti-religious zealots of the scientific elite who are every bit as irrational in their blind hatred for the God they claim not to believe in as the creationists themselves"

Brilliant. Your gift for mimicry, and mockery, is exceptional Jimmah-ski. ;)

420 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:54:27pm

re: #409 J.D.

Would you mind adding "some" in front of "women being so anti-death penalty"?

I'd love to.

421 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:54:31pm

re: #394 van helsing

True about both sides.
However, it would be unwise to forget about the Weather Underground, Black Panthers, SLA, and other wannabe 'revolutionaries'.

We can go back further and look at progressives pushing prohibition, or back further and look at catholic crusades.

There are nuts on all sides throughout history.

But, right now we are talking about contemporary America. you can go back 20 years for examples, and I would probably accept them, but Ron Paul was talking about a current swell of violence against the right from the left.

That is nutburger talk.

422 Dan G.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:55:12pm

re: #417 SFGoth

Huh? Not downplaying his role, you just seemed to focus only on his evil.

423 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:55:32pm

re: #408 iceweasel

Examples from decades ago.

Of course if you want to talk about present day leftist violence, we will have to go out of America. But we can easily do so.

424 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:55:32pm

re: #402 Cato the Elder

Care to clarify your "Nancy" quip?

Check your FB Inbox.

425 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:57:13pm

re: #422 Dan G.

Huh? Not downplaying his role, you just seemed to focus only on his evil.

He raped her and got her pregnant at age 14. Sorry, for all the evil that women can do, they can't get 14 year old girls pregnant. He either masterminded the plot or went along with it. Either way, he's got the testosterone and he's the Jesus Freak who's commanded to be in charge of his wife and all that shit.

426 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:58:36pm

re: #417 SFGoth

Oh, right, he was submissive. He tried to be the hero. Try again. Oh, and she should be burned alive.

Agreed. Of course, I wouldn't have them burned alive. But I would have them hanged publicly, and then buried facedown.

427 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:58:40pm

re: #423 swamprat

Of course if you want to talk about present day leftist violence, we will have to go out of America. But we can easily do so.

No one is denying that there are, and have been, nuts on the left.

To suggest that the threat of violence from the left, now, in America, is in anywhere near the threat from the right is to deny reality.

You want to turn this into a 'lefties are bad too!" or "you're saying lefties are saints!" argument, but it isn't.

428 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:58:53pm

re: #411 cliffster

If it were just about blind belief, then yes it would be quite illogical. I think the people who stumble over themselves to provide "proof", or try to convert people, or indoctrinate their neighbor's kids, are actually lacking in "belief". Rational people who just sense the presence are truly believers. And rational people who don't, well they are atheists.

Well of course, you just explained (or clarified in the least) the whole basics of the concept of god. A indisputable sense.

I occasionally sense like everyone around me is out to kill me. I occasionally sense that my cat keeps saying my name backwards. I occasionally sense like if I don't buckle my seat belt in my car, that the aliens are going to suck me out of it.

And that's a nice slam on the folks who believe, and haven't had that "sense" experience that you have had (or have).

I know how you feel.

429 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:59:09pm

If you West coasters don't have your tivos set up for Bullshit, you need to. Penn and Teller go after the vatican, and there are some surprises.

430 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:59:15pm

re: #420 SFGoth

I'd love to.

Good, because you ought to.

431 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:59:21pm

re: #423 swamprat

Of course if you want to talk about present day leftist violence, we will have to go out of America. But we can easily do so.

Nevermind the "Battle in Seattle" riots. Leftist violence is hard to find because it's usually referred to in fawning tones. They're not thugs smashing storefront windows--they're passionate youths, concerned about rampant capitalism.

432 [deleted]  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:59:49pm
433 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 8:59:58pm

re: #418 Sharmuta

I dinged you down for this. I know plenty of women who support the death penalty, and plenty of men who don't. It's an ideological divide, not one based on gender.

More- it's sexist and misogynistic to blame women for the lack of the death penalty. It has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with visions.

434 garycooper  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:00:48pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

Well that is certainly one view. It can be well argued and I am not trying to say it is inherently wrong.

However, there are some of us who still believe that Moses took some dictation.

BUt then again that is a matter of faith.

It is certainly true that there has always been an oral tradition in Judaism to go along with Genesis -and everything else. One of the things that makes discussing this with ID type Christians difficult is that they have never seen or heard the oral traditions that go with Genesis.

I knew you were a True Believer!

"Moses took dictation"...muhahahahahah!

Once the TB commits to a particular dogma, it's all over but the pontificatin'.

435 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:01:05pm

re: #415 experiencedtraveller

I enjoyed your collation of the Health Care Issue. Thanks. Its real good work that I hope you maintain and expand.

But it appears that in this issue you are belittling the danger from the left while aggrandizing the danger from the right.

Not in the least. I do not advocate violence from either side. Do not condone it's use from the weather underground or any group from the right.

I was merely pointing out that Ron Paul was speculating on a turn of violence from the left that does not currently exist.

436 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:01:53pm

re: #406 Sharmuta

I rolled a 9. The Historical Figure of My Choice was a Creationist canard.

I rolled 13 so I get to Kick A Creationist In The Ass. I get a +1 on the role for spending a Edge Point.

/game geek

437 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:02:13pm

re: #423 swamprat

Of course if you want to talk about present day leftist violence, we will have to go out of America. But we can easily do so.


One would think 2002 would be considered present day.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

438 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:02:38pm

re: #427 iceweasel

No one is denying that there are, and have been, nuts on the left.

To suggest that the threat of violence from the left, now, in America, is in anywhere near the threat from the right is to deny reality.

You want to turn this into a 'lefties are bad too!" or "you're saying lefties are saints!" argument, but it isn't.

After the past twenty years, I find it dangerous to hear only about "right-wing violence", as if there is a monopoly. See my post above. I agree that "Well they do it too!" is invalid as a defense for the indefensible, but there is an important point to be made, which is this: it is not as thought we are dealing with a reasonable, responsible left and an outraged, dangerous, violent right; but this is the dominant meme in news coverage these days.

439 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:02:56pm

re: #427 iceweasel

No one is denying that there are, and have been, nuts on the left.

To suggest that the threat of violence from the left, now, in America, is in anywhere near the threat from the right is to deny reality.

You want to turn this into a 'lefties are bad too!" or "you're saying lefties are saints!" argument, but it isn't.

Violence is one of the tools used by the left.
Homework;
"the end(s?) justify the means"
Look it up. Find the context and the source.
Get back to me on the "peaceful" leftist movement.

440 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:03:10pm

re: #421 keithgabryelski

That is nutburger talk.

Ron Paul is a nut.

I agree that there advocates for violence on both sides. If you want to count recent history in this country (cuz you really can't discuss the Crusades without going into such things as the muslim conquest of Spain, and such)
in my experience over the last 50 years it's been the left that's planting bombs, robbing banks, killing cops, breaking windows, burning buildings, and in general making noisy statements advocating the overthrow of the government or 'merely' the death or prosecution of the President (see zombietime for details).

No laws were broken by anyone carrying their weapons in Phoenix. No one was threatened (unless the sight of gun makes you soil yourself).
I'm not agreeing with what they did being terribly bright but it was perfectly legal.

441 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:03:15pm

re: #435 keithgabryelski

Not in the least. I do not advocate violence from either side. Do not condone it's use from the weather underground or any group from the right.

I was merely pointing out that Ron Paul was speculating on a turn of violence from the left that does not currently exist.

It really shouldn't be a controversial point. Besides, it's not as if people here would be shocked to discover that Ron Paul gets things wrong -- to put it mildly.

442 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:03:44pm

re: #424 haakondahl

Check your FB Inbox.

Received. Responded. RSVP!

443 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:03:54pm

re: #400 SFGoth

but at least this a-hole isn't going to survive a week in prison in this country

Tried and convicted in the prison sharia court system. Is that supposed to be a good thing? Not that I disagree with that outcome but why is it that so many people just give up on pressuring the criminal justice system to dole out the appropriate penalty and root for the inmates to do the dirty work instead. Thats what an anarchist would promote.

444 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:04:43pm

re: #437 J.D.


You're just cherry-picking!

/sarc

445 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:05:12pm

re: #436 Dark_Falcon

I rolled 13 so I get to Kick A Creationist In The Ass. I get a +1 on the role for spending a Edge Point.

/game geek

JESUS rolls 16 or better on 3d6 and SAVES!

446 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:06:04pm

re: #299 haakondahl

Clarification: By "we" I meant those who are playing with fire. I don't believe Killgore is, nor am I. If you interpreted my distancing myself from "we" as distancing myself from Killgore, that's my own fault for being cryptic. Pink Floyd references don't always work...

447 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:06:07pm

re: #412 swamprat

You said "history". You got it. If you want to ask about now, that is different. Left is goody two shoes, my ass.

"history" -- I wad talking in context of Ron paul's quote which clearly meant a current swell of violence from the left against the right.

He brought up older incidents which have NO bearing on any percieved contemporary threat against the right from the left.

Context is key, here.

448 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:06:34pm

re: #439 swamprat

Violence is one of the tools used by the left.
Homework;
"the end(s?) justify the means"
Look it up. Find the context and the source.
Get back to me on the "peaceful" leftist movement.

Sorry, I don't go in for sweeping statements about the left like that -- any more than I do 'the right'. You'll notice I've been very careful to point out that I don't consider rightwing extremists to be representative of the right as a whole, or of what I consider the real right.

You might want to consider that same policy yourself about the left. Just sayin.

BTW, I intend to feed your homework assignment to my dog. He's named Trotsky. ;)

449 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:07:16pm

re: #439 swamprat

Violence is one of the tools used by the left.
Homework;
"the end(s?) justify the means"
Look it up. Find the context and the source.
Get back to me on the "peaceful" leftist movement.

Swamprat, let's not forget the charming people taking their issues to the homes and schools of the banking and insurance execs.

I can't find the link to that clown, self-admitted bank terrorist...I found it

Charming fellow.

450 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:07:26pm

re: #442 Cato the Elder

Received. Responded. RSVP!

Roger. I had been travelling and haven't been able to keep up with LGF recently, and I didn't want to mix things that hadn't been mixed already, if you know what I mean. Lines to cross, and such.

451 SteveC  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:07:47pm

re: #436 Dark_Falcon

I rolled 13 so I get to Kick A Creationist In The Ass. I get a +1 on the role for spending a Edge Point.

/game geek

You didn't choose the giant Slor? Did you miss the third reconciliation?

452 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:08:14pm

There actually are a few incidents of recent leftist violence, however the point is that right now the potential for violence from the right is growing larger. If McCain had won I don't suspect we'd have dominionist loons praying for his death.

453 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:08:23pm

re: #440 Van Helsing

No laws were broken by anyone carrying their weapons in Phoenix. No one was threatened (unless the sight of gun makes you soil yourself).
I'm not agreeing with what they did being terribly bright but it was perfectly legal.


If I am at a public event, political, highly charged atmosphere, and someone struts in with a load of weapons I am going to get the hell out of there. And so should you.

No one was threatened my ass. What a ridiculous statement.

454 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:08:34pm

Res ipsa loquitur, they say:
the thing speaks for itself.
This is so true. Especially when
the thing is power or pelf.

455 SteveC  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:08:37pm

re: #445 haakondahl

JESUS rolls 16 or better on 3d6 and SAVES!

Gretsky scores on the rebound!

456 kynna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:08:57pm

There's one thing on this earth your crazy, sciency, evolution trickity-tricks can't explain:

Allison Krauss

Just wanted to post something pretty.

457 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:09:10pm

re: #446 Cato the Elder

Clarification: By "we" I meant those who are playing with fire. I don't believe Killgore is, nor am I. If you interpreted my distancing myself from "we" as distancing myself from Killgore, that's my own fault for being cryptic. Pink Floyd references don't always work...

Believe me, I got the referent and the point. I would hardly accuse you of distancing yourself from Killgore.

458 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:09:21pm

re: #445 haakondahl

JESUS rolls 16 or better on 3d6 and SAVES!

Spacejesus rolls 3 on 3d6. EPIC FAIL

459 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:09:23pm

re: #447 keithgabryelski


The left has a history of violence. That is a fact.

460 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:09:57pm

re: #452 Thanos

There actually are a few incidents of recent leftist violence, however the point is that right now the potential for violence from the right is growing larger. If McCain had won I don't suspect we'd have dominionist loons praying for his death.

Well, when people get pissed, they get violent. And when your guy doesn't win an election, you get pissed. So...

461 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:10:24pm

re: #457 haakondahl

Believe me, I got the referent and the point. I would hardly accuse you of distancing yourself from Killgore.

Ha.

462 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:10:37pm

Remembering Hypatia

Long, but very interesting, and very moving.

463 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:11:03pm

re: #443 Mich-again

Tried and convicted in the prison sharia court system. Is that supposed to be a good thing? Not that I disagree with that outcome but why is it that so many people just give up on pressuring the criminal justice system to dole out the appropriate penalty and root for the inmates to do the dirty work instead. Thats what an anarchist would promote.

That's what someone who has to put up with the Liberal/Left justice system promotes. The CJS, dominated by Leftist lawyer and judges, plus rank incompetence, can't. This scum is constitutionally ineligible for the death penalty even though he has destroyed three lives and created two more who may not be fixable. The girl went 18 years living in the backyard, without schooling or basic medical care. Her 2 daughters are most likely illiterate. He raped her, by latest, age 14, and probably immediately. He ALREADY served time for violent crimes. What, you think he'll actually get life in prison. When was the last time you heard of a felon dying in prison of old age. You wonder why? You're kidding me.

464 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:11:20pm

re: #324 iceweasel

Totally agree with that. Bad times.
And no, not the vast right wing conspiracy...the mutterings of some of the more crazed right, Freepers, HotAir, various places. It's bleeding into the mainstream slowly: this notion that the gunbringers are perfectly justified and doing nothing at all wrong. It'll set up a narrative for how it's all the left's fault if something happens.

(N.B. : I'm not saying that it will be the fault of the right when something happens. I don't consider those loons to be part of the real right.)

I disappeared for a little while there...

I think that's quite a reasonable description of the situation, and a plausible prediction of what might happen in the very unfortunate event of violent clashes between heavily armed factions at one of these meetings.

My feeling, however, is that it wouldn't necessarily play out like that. I think that, even to most conservatives, the sight of a civilian walking the streets carrying an assault rifle is still a rather shocking one. It's true that there has been plenty of "it's my constitutional right!" sentiment, even here on LGF. But I think most people still find it strange to carry an AR-15 around on the street, and downright unacceptable to bring one to a political event.

So if there is a fight between some sort of Ron Paul maniac with a gun and an SEIU thug with a pipe, or a knife, or worse yet another gun, I don't think the current round of gunbringing will influence anyone's reaction in any particular way, except perhaps against the right in general, because it was right-wing extremists who first escalated to the gun level. Of course, they're not really provoking anyone in particular, because they're not bringing guns in order to protect themselves from rowdies real or imagined. Rather, they're bringing guns just to show that they can, and to threaten and menace the president (not low-level liberal demonstrators). Still, I think their act would likely be seen by most as the greater provocation.

465 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:11:35pm
466 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:12:02pm

re: #449 Van Helsing

more or less.

A jacksonian shakedown artist

467 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:12:04pm

re: #457 haakondahl

Believe me, I got the referent and the point. I would hardly accuse you of distancing yourself from Killgore.

Oh, come now. It could happen. If Iceweasel and I receive orders from Soros to cut him loose, he'll be so ronery he won't know what hit him...

468 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:12:14pm

re: #453 The Shadow Do

If I am at a public event, political, highly charged atmosphere, and someone struts in with a load of weapons I am going to get the hell out of there. And so should you.

No one was threatened my ass. What a ridiculous statement.

I used to be a motorcycle enthusiast. Being in groups of people even when MOST are armed doesn't bother me a bit.

And no one was strutting in with loads of weapons. Sidearms and one AR15.
Again, not saying it was smart, just legal.

469 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:12:29pm

re: #444 swamprat

You're just cherry-picking!

/sarc

Is that charge not sooo predictable?

470 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:12:45pm

re: #453 The Shadow Do

If I am at a public event, political, highly charged atmosphere, and someone struts in with a load of weapons I am going to get the hell out of there. And so should you.

No one was threatened my ass. What a ridiculous statement.

No one "strutted in" anywhere. It was outside the event. The weapons were mostly sidearms as is legal and somewhat commonplace in the community.

471 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:13:16pm

re: #465 J.D.

Death Threats Against Bush at Protests Ignored for Years
By zombie.

We need a thread!

472 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:13:27pm

re: #448 iceweasel

BTW, I intend to feed your homework assignment to my dog. He's named Trotsky. ;)

On a related note, my dog's name is Lincoln. Weird how people name their dog after a person they admire so much huh?

473 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:13:39pm

Report on two violent leftists at Jawa

[Link: mypetjawa.mu.nu...]

474 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:14:29pm

Name that movie.

/super easy

475 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:14:37pm

re: #472 Mich-again

On a related note, my dog's name is Lincoln. Weird how people name their dog after a person they admire so much huh?

I don't even have a dog, of course. But I've always thought Chairman Meow was a good cat name.

476 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:14:50pm

re: #468 Van Helsing

I used to be a motorcycle enthusiast. Being in groups of people even when MOST are armed doesn't bother me a bit.

And no one was strutting in with loads of weapons. Sidearms and one AR15.
Again, not saying it was smart, just legal.

Of course it was legal, they were not arrested. Go ahead and hang with this crew if that is your inclination, but don't deny the message behind the brandishing was threatening.

477 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:15:13pm

re: #465 J.D.

Killgore has been posting almost daily about the threats against Obama that are going arrest-less.

478 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:15:24pm

re: #473 Thanos

Report on two violent leftists at Jawa

[Link: mypetjawa.mu.nu...]

How timely!

479 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:16:20pm

re: #471 swamprat

Death Threats Against Bush at Protests Ignored for Years
By zombie.

We need a thread!

Wow! The Great zombie.

480 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:16:36pm

re: #470 unrealizedviewpoint

No one "strutted in" anywhere. It was outside the event. The weapons were mostly sidearms as is legal and somewhat commonplace in the community.

baloney, it was a threat and you know it. Anyone in their right mind would have evacuated on sight of these idiots. Defend as you will. Maybe you and VanHelsing can join the club.

481 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:16:47pm

re: #473 Thanos

Report on two violent leftists at Jawa

[Link: mypetjawa.mu.nu...]

That's not current. That report is two days old.
/

482 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:17:13pm

re: #475 iceweasel

I don't even have a dog, of course. But I've always thought Chairman Meow was a good cat name.

Too funny!

483 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:17:19pm

re: #463 SFGoth

When was the last time you heard of a felon dying in prison of old age.

I'm guessing that happens just about every day. Just because it doesn't make the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

484 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:17:34pm

re: #472 Mich-again

On a related note, my dog's name is Lincoln. Weird how people name their dog after a person they admire so much huh?

My cat is named Toonses. His pal is named Buddy. Buddy finally ate food from my hand today (he's shy), but then it was smoked turkey breast slices bits, not catfood. Toonses is just so damned cute. :->

485 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:17:34pm

re: #477 Sharmuta

Killgore has been posting almost daily about the threats against Obama that are going arrest-less.

Oh, darn.
I went to New York for my birthday and I missed it.

woe

486 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:18:06pm

re: #476 The Shadow Do

Of course it was legal, they were not arrested. Go ahead and hang with this crew if that is your inclination, but don't deny the message behind the brandishing was threatening.

I don't (and wouldn't) hang with those publicity whores. Perhaps some people in that area (it was NOT near the President or the SS would have been in every picture) were feeling threatened. Again, keep in mind that this is Phoenix. Open carry is legal. You see a lot less of it now that concealed carry is legal, but it's not a real rare thing here.

487 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:18:12pm

re: #448 iceweasel

BTW, I intend to feed your homework assignment to my dog. He's named Trotsky. ;)

Another victim of leftist violence, Trotski was assassinated in Mexico

Just sayin'

488 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:18:25pm

re: #467 Cato the Elder

Oh, come now. It could happen. If Iceweasel and I receive orders from Soros to cut him loose, he'll be so ronery he won't know what hit him...

JERRY LUNDEGAARD
...This could work out real good for me and Jean and Scotty -

WADE GUSTAFSON
Jean and Scotty never have to worry.

Iceweasel is covered.

489 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:18:52pm

re: #483 Mich-again

I'm guessing that happens just about every day. Just because it doesn't make the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

That's true, but there's an *awful* lot of compassion running around these days. Fucking liberals making the DP unconstitutional except for really heinous murders.

490 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:19:00pm

re: #475 iceweasel

I don't even have a dog, of course. But I've always thought Chairman Meow was a good cat name.

Did you ever see the French art-house thriller "Diva"? Early eighties. Kid in a Paris group flat has a cat name "Ayatollah".

And then there's my all-time favorite store-name pun. "Luke's Fiat."

491 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:19:10pm

re: #475 iceweasel

I don't even have a dog, of course. But I've always thought Chairman Meow was a good cat name.

Mousy-Tongue

492 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:19:28pm

re: #451 SteveC

You didn't choose the giant Slor? Did you miss the third reconciliation?

Those option weren't on the chart. Level 10,000+ karma lizards get an additional +1 and +25,000 gets a +2.

Results of the modified high rolls are as follows:

13: Kick A Creationist In The Ass

14: Gain Shield of Logic

15: Shove Notarized Copy Of Obama's Birth Certificate Down Ron Paul's Throat.

493 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:19:33pm

re: #480 The Shadow Do

baloney, it was a threat and you know it. Anyone in their right mind would have evacuated on sight of these idiots. Defend as you will. Maybe you and VanHelsing can join the club.

I'm sorry, no. No one was in any jeopardy. Folks were legally carrying weapons outside an event to make a point only. How many arrests were made? Don't you think that if there was even a hint of potential trouble, the lot of em would have been arrested?

494 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:19:48pm

re: #473 Thanos


Cherry picking.

495 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:20:01pm

re: #484 SFGoth

My cat is named Toonses. His pal is named Buddy. Buddy finally ate food from my hand today (he's shy), but then it was smoked turkey breast slices bits, not catfood. Toonses is just so damned cute. :->

Hand-feeding is the best. Getting a shy animal to do that means you're there!

496 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:20:08pm

re: #493 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm sorry, no. No one was in any jeopardy. Folks were legally carrying weapons outside an event to make a point only. How many arrests were made? Don't you think that if there was even a hint of potential trouble, the lot of em would have been arrested?

Kinda like the point made before the abortion doctor was murdered?

497 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:20:23pm

OT -

At about 3:30am this morning, the irreducible complexity of my fence was removed by a hungry bear...

Image: beardamage.JPG

I had a project today.

498 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:20:26pm

re: #486 Van Helsing

I don't (and wouldn't) hang with those publicity whores. Perhaps some people in that area (it was NOT near the President or the SS would have been in every picture) were feeling threatened. Again, keep in mind that this is Phoenix. Open carry is legal. You see a lot less of it now that concealed carry is legal, but it's not a real rare thing here.

Something pretty fucked up in a community where walking about the city with a rifle over your shoulder is normal.

499 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:20:30pm

re: #487 swamprat

Another victim of leftist violence, Trotski was assassinated in Mexico

Just sayin'

He was liberated, then.

500 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:20:54pm

re: #486 Van Helsing

I don't (and wouldn't) hang with those publicity whores. Perhaps some people in that area (it was NOT near the President or the SS would have been in every picture) were feeling threatened. Again, keep in mind that this is Phoenix. Open carry is legal. You see a lot less of it now that concealed carry is legal, but it's not a real rare thing here.

USSS, if you please.

501 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:21:06pm

re: #487 swamprat

Another victim of leftist violence, Trotski was assassinated in Mexico

Just sayin'

Do you really imagine I made that joke and didn't know who Trotsky was?

Also: Mexico. Still not America. And still several decades ago.

502 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:21:26pm

re: #498 The Shadow Do

Something pretty fucked up in a community where walking about the city with a rifle over your shoulder is normal.

Beats getting shot.

503 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:21:43pm

re: #500 haakondahl

USSS, if you please.

Sorry, good point. I thought that even as I typed. SS just ain't right.
Thanks.

504 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:22:03pm

re: #496 SFGoth

Kinda like the point made before the abortion doctor was murdered?

WTF?

505 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:22:32pm

re: #498 The Shadow Do

Something pretty fucked up in a community where walking about the city with a rifle over your shoulder is normal.

As long as he's not duckwalking the high ready, I'm okay.

506 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:22:44pm

re: #495 Cato the Elder

Hand-feeding is the best. Getting a shy animal to do that means you're there!

I really can't afford to feed stray cats gourmet turkey slices every day and it's probably not good for them. Toonses came right up to me from day one and said, "I'm cute, feed me bee-yotch, oh, and rub my face, yeah, thaaat's it. Oh man, gotta wiz, where's your sandbox? WTF do you mean you don't have a sand box. Listen sucker, I mean, human, you feed me, you rub my face, you provide me with litter, and don't get up when I'm curled up in your lap. Them's the rules. Meow!"

507 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:22:58pm

re: #503 Van Helsing

Sorry, good point. I thought that even as I typed. SS just ain't right.
Thanks.

I'm the good point fairy.

508 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:23:01pm

re: #502 haakondahl

Beats getting shot.

Quite Concur.

509 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:23:08pm

Asking beck's advertisers to drop him is thuggery, but taking guns to a political rally is normal.

OK!

510 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:23:24pm

re: #475 iceweasel

I don't even have a dog, of course.

How does that statement rate for an "of course" after you posted..

I intend to feed your homework assignment to my dog.

Should I doubt everything you post because it might just be total BS 'of course'? How can we tell when you actually mean what you post?

511 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:23:26pm

re: #440 Van Helsing

Ron Paul is a nut.

I agree that there advocates for violence on both sides. If you want to count recent history in this country (cuz you really can't discuss the Crusades without going into such things as the muslim conquest of Spain, and such)
in my experience over the last 50 years it's been the left that's planting bombs, robbing banks, killing cops, breaking windows, burning buildings, and in general making noisy statements advocating the overthrow of the government or 'merely' the death or prosecution of the President (see zombietime for details).

No laws were broken by anyone carrying their weapons in Phoenix. No one was threatened (unless the sight of gun makes you soil yourself).

Bombs, broken windows, bank robbers?

Seccesionists and white supremecists, man.

As to the crusades... I brought them up to show I didn't want to go digging that far back in history (because we'll get into a hatfield vs. McCoy thing that has little bearing on Ron paul's quote)

lastly, laws broken? A man with a gun strapped to his hip showed up conspictulously close to a presidential event holding a sign that by any reasonable reading of advocated the assination of our president.

That is unreasonable in my book.

It'd be unreasonable at a George W. Bush event (now or one year ago) and it is unreasonable now, with this president.

Note, I don't care about people calling for the impeachment of the president. It's crass but not close to a coup d'etat
I'm not agreeing with what they did being terribly bright but it was perfectly legal.

512 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:23:33pm

re: #506 SFGoth

I really can't afford to feed stray cats gourmet turkey slices every day and it's probably not good for them. Toonses came right up to me from day one and said, "I'm cute, feed me bee-yotch, oh, and rub my face, yeah, thaaat's it. Oh man, gotta wiz, where's your sandbox? WTF do you mean you don't have a sand box. Listen sucker, I mean, human, you feed me, you rub my face, you provide me with litter, and don't get up when I'm curled up in your lap. Them's the rules. Meow!"

With cats, you are The Staff.

513 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:23:37pm

re: #498 The Shadow Do

Something pretty fucked up in a community where walking about the city with a rifle over your shoulder is normal.

It's legal, it's a choice.Choice
I don't carry a rifle. Too hard to get in and out of the car.

514 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:23:43pm

re: #490 Cato the Elder

Did you ever see the French art-house thriller "Diva"? Early eighties. Kid in a Paris group flat has a cat name "Ayatollah".

And then there's my all-time favorite store-name pun. "Luke's Fiat."

Brilliant pun! No, I haven't seen Diva. Good?

re: #491 haakondahl

Mousy-Tongue

That was excellent. ;) I would also have accepted Mousie-dung.

515 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:23:52pm

re: #509 Sharmuta

Asking beck's advertisers to drop him is thuggery, but taking guns to a political rally is normal.

OK!

It also fans the lefty flames. They don't need fanning. (Dakota or otherwise)

516 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:24:00pm

re: #493 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm sorry, no. No one was in any jeopardy. Folks were legally carrying weapons outside an event to make a point only. How many arrests were made? Don't you think that if there was even a hint of potential trouble, the lot of em would have been arrested?


Are you a mind reader, did you somehow intuit they were there to demonstrate and not shoot up the place? Goofy.

Next time I see some dumbass walking around with a bunch of weapons I will assume they are just making a statement. Or I will get the hell out of the area, my choice of course you can make yours.

517 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:24:36pm

Hey Night Lizards!

Any troll roasts yet?

How are you-all and what are we eating tonite?

518 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:25:18pm

re: #502 haakondahl

Beats getting shot.

Are you paranoid?

519 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:25:21pm

re: #517 ggt

Hey Night Lizards!

Any troll roasts yet?

How are you-all and what are we eating tonite?

We're eating troll melts.

520 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:25:26pm

re: #517 ggt

Hey Night Lizards!

Any troll roasts yet?

How are you-all and what are we eating tonite?

Kidnapper-rapists and cat food.

521 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:25:47pm

re: #510 Mich-again

Should I doubt everything you post because it might just be total BS 'of course'? How can we tell when you actually mean what you post?

Dude. I was obviously making a joke about 'the dog eating my homework' in responding to a poster who attempted to assign me homework.

This moment in "Explaining the Obvious" has been brought to you by PBS and the Soros Corporation.

522 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:26:42pm

re: #517 ggt

Hey Night Lizards!

Any troll roasts yet?

How are you-all and what are we eating tonite?

We've had several trolls burn tonight, along with two infrequent but longer-time commentators. I've saved you some white meat from one of the trolls and we still have some beer and soda. Enjoy!

523 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:27:27pm

re: #511 keithgabryelski

That is unreasonable in my book.


Doing something LEGAL that you find to be unreasonable isn't quite the same thing as the SLA kidnapping Patty Hearst for instance and then engaging in bank robberies where I believe at least one person was killed.

As to secessionists and white supremacist types, I could use some examples from the last 50 years.

524 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:27:51pm

re: #518 The Shadow Do

Are you paranoid?

Carrying a firearm is not a sign of paranoia. It is far more likely a sign that you take defending yourself seriously.

525 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:28:10pm

re: #516 The Shadow Do
Shadow - Next time I see some dumbass walking around with a bunch of weapons I will notify the police pronto.
Unless of course the dumbass is a police officer in which case I will clear the area ASAP.

526 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:28:20pm

re: #516 The Shadow Do

Are you a mind reader, did you somehow intuit they were there to demonstrate and not shoot up the place? Goofy.

Next time I see some dumbass walking around with a bunch of weapons I will assume they are just making a statement. Or I will get the hell out of the area, my choice of course you can make yours.

I personally deplore the idea of open-carrying of a weapon to a political event, but, they were not breaking any laws. The open-carry of the weapon was their political statement. Agree or disagree with their position, or politics, but certainly don't allow the gun to scare you, as it's highly unlikely they'd consider using it.

527 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:15pm

Is there an lgfer who writes this blog?
The 3 Monkeys Guide to Health
It's interesting...

Fats To Eat

* Butter from grass-fed cows
* Lard from pastured pigs
* Tallow from grass-fed cows
* Unrefined Coconut oil
* Cold pressed olive and sesame oils (uncooked or low heat)

Fats To Avoid

* Soy oil
* Corn oil
* Cottonseed Oil
* Canola Oil (GMO, can contain trans fatty acids and can cause heart lesions)
* Hydrogenated Oils
* Most other vegetable oils, especially when not cold pressed (they are rancid and therefore a carcinogen)


...to me.

528 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:23pm

re: #514 iceweasel

That was excellent. ;) I would also have accepted Mousie-dung.

I had a whole Animal Farm writ large thing bouncing around my head for a while. Mousy-Tongue, the Samoyed Union... never got a critical mass, now have forgotten most.

529 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:27pm

re: #513 Van Helsing

It's legal, it's a choice.Choice
I don't carry a rifle. Too hard to get in and out of the car.

I think the point is that it is not commonplace for law abiding people to open carry in most communities.

It brings light to an interesting point. If only criminals are seen to carry firearms (excepting law enforcement), how do law abiding gun owners combat the "perception". Somehow, I don't think carrying big guns in the open is the answer.

Don't get me wrong, I think the common perception of guns = criminals is a dangerous perception in a free society.

I think perhaps a pistol in a holster at the hip would be a more acceptable way to open carry if one was interested in changing public perceptions. Just thoughts . . .

530 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:30pm

There's a time and a place for guns, political rallies aren't the time or the place. When you see someone hitchhiking in McKinley park with a rifle and six gun you give him a lift, when you see someone armed like that outside a bank you drive expeditiously around the corner and call 911.

531 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:37pm

re: #501 iceweasel

Didn't think you would know how he died, and still make that joke!

532 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:45pm

re: #519 Sharmuta

We're eating troll melts.

Oh, were they marinated in garlic?

533 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:50pm

re: #522 Dark_Falcon
Hey Dark_Falcon - Who were the two long timers that got banned?

534 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:52pm

re: #523 Van Helsing

Doing something LEGAL that you find to be unreasonable isn't quite the same thing as the SLA kidnapping Patty Hearst for instance and then engaging in bank robberies where I believe at least one person was killed.

As to secessionists and white supremacist types, I could use some examples from the last 50 years.

To answer that last:

The Order back in the 80's. Aryan Nations. Viper Militia. Aryan Brotherhood in prison. And that's just for starters.

535 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:29:59pm

re: #520 SFGoth

Kidnapper-rapists and cat food.

cat food?

536 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:30:01pm

re: #525 realwest

{real}
You're up late.

537 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:30:23pm

re: #518 The Shadow Do

Are you paranoid?

Are you out to get me?

538 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:31:05pm

re: #522 Dark_Falcon

We've had several trolls burn tonight, along with two infrequent but longer-time commentators. I've saved you some white meat from one of the trolls and we still have some beer and soda. Enjoy!

Thanks, but I'd really love some fresh coffee with cream and sugar. Got any left?

539 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:31:07pm

re: #537 haakondahl

Are you out to get me?

We are all out to get you.

/but then you knew that...

540 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:32:02pm

re: #530 Thanos
"When you see someone hitchhiking in McKinley park with a rifle and six gun you give him a lift," Uh, no thanks, I'll let you give him or her a ride; I'll just speed up to get outta range!
BTW, where is McKinley park?

541 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:32:11pm

re: #521 iceweasel

Dude. I was obviously making a joke about 'the dog eating my homework

You didn't say 'the' dog You said 'my' dog. Not a slight difference. Its kind of odd to make up an imaginary friend like that. Got any others? Ha.

542 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:32:19pm

re: #533 realwest

Hey Dark_Falcon - Who were the two long timers that got banned?

Who?

543 legalpad  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:32:23pm

re: #525 realwest

Shadow - Next time I see some dumbass walking around with a bunch of weapons I will notify the police pronto.
Unless of course the dumbass is a police officer in which case I will clear the area ASAP.

good idea

544 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:33:09pm

re: #435 keithgabryelski

Not in the least. I do not advocate violence from either side. Do not condone it's use from the weather underground or any group from the right.

I am asking about a part of your post that says:

That begs the position that extremists on either side are equally violent.

How can you review Zombietime with its damning evidence of the left's embrace of violent imagery, watch all the great riots of the last ten years that are politically motivated by leftist ideology and witness the organized, repetitive attacks on trade conferences and not conclude the left is more dangerous?

Who is more dangerous on the right? The guy in the suit who called the police and told them he would be exercising his right to bear arms outside a political event? Dumb stunt as it was, it wasn't that scary.

Regards.

545 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:33:13pm

re: #529 ggt

I think the point is that it is not commonplace for law abiding people to open carry in most communities.

It brings light to an interesting point. If only criminals are seen to carry firearms (excepting law enforcement), how do law abiding gun owners combat the "perception". Somehow, I don't think carrying big guns in the open is the answer.

Don't get me wrong, I think the common perception of guns = criminals is a dangerous perception in a free society.

I think perhaps a pistol in a holster at the hip would be a more acceptable way to open carry if one was interested in changing public perceptions. Just thoughts . . .

Agreed. The part of sensitivity that I like is the sense part, as in common sense. Carrying a rifle around a planned Presidential appearance just isn't common sense. You don't get to grind every particular axe at every opportunity.
If the guy wants to make a point about open carry, great, but he's not doing himself any favors with this stunt.
Americans have the right to do very dumb things, and this is one of them. I would hope that his friends or family would break the news to him with a size twelve.

546 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:33:13pm

re: #533 realwest

Hey Dark_Falcon - Who were the two long timers that got banned?

father-of-10 and capitalistincharge. Both here and least two years and with comment and karma totals in the hundreds. Shame they decided to flounce, but they apparently wanted to hitch their wagon to the crazy stallion that is Glen Beck.

547 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:33:25pm

re: #524 Dark_Falcon

Carrying a firearm is not a sign of paranoia. It is far more likely a sign that you take defending yourself seriously.

Carrying a rifle and a leg gun to a political rally makes sense then, I guess. Fellow could get attacked by the SS or somesuch. You just never know.

By the way, I have CC in TX. I have never felt the need to brandish in public. Stupid, provocative, and threatening that is.

548 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:33:45pm

re: #536 J.D.
Hi {J.D.} just waiting for my last meds to kick in then I'm off to bed!
How are y'all doing this morning?

549 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:33:53pm

re: #459 swamprat

The left has a history of violence. That is a fact.

Your position is noted. Do you have anything to add to the current discussion?

In particular: Is there a history of violence from the left that would suggest the controlling powers (Democrats) will be coming for right wingers in such a way that warrants "be prepared for violence" talk from Ron Paul?

550 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:33:53pm

re: #540 realwest

"When you see someone hitchhiking in McKinley park with a rifle and six gun you give him a lift," Uh, no thanks, I'll let you give him or her a ride; I'll just speed up to get outta range!
BTW, where is McKinley park?

Alaska, but they renamed it. If you grew up there you still call it McKinley.

551 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:34:26pm

re: #546 Dark_Falcon

father-of-10 and capitalistincharge. Both here and least two years and with comment and karma totals in the hundreds. Shame they decided to flounce, but they apparently wanted to hitch their wagon to the crazy stallion that is Glen Beck.

too bad.

552 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:34:35pm

Guns at VFW/Obama meet.

I keep forgetting that the whole story on this probably didn't make the national news.
These clowns had been in contact with the police before the event. The police were aware they would be there to make a 'statement'.

Read the story. If they would have covered this in the MSM you would also know that the gent with the AR15 was black. MSNBC decided that didn't fit their 'racist' narrative so they only showed the rifle and his shirt.

553 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:34:48pm

re: #531 swamprat

Didn't think you would know how he died, and still make that joke!

Didn't you think that I would think that she would think that you would know that she would know how Trotsky was liberated?

554 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:34:49pm

re: #527 J.D.

I don't write that blog, but I did find an interesting link about dieting and nutrition today I was hoping to share, so thanks for the opening:

The "Pistachio Principle" of Weight Loss

James Painter, PhD, RD, has come up with a new, non-dieting approach to weight loss that he calls the "Pistachio Principle." He says his experiments have shown that people can consume fewer calories without consciously restricting themselves, and yet finish a meal feeling as satisfied and full as does the average American who consumes more calories.

Really fascinating read- this is the key:

The bottom line is that it takes your brain 20 minutes to get the signal that you're full.

I hope any Lizards who are dieting or have friends or family dieting pass on this link.

555 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:35:02pm

re: #404 swamprat

re: #272 keithgabryelski


Chris Carver, a radical in the 60s who went underground after a series of robberies and bombings

the Weathermen, used bombings as a means to effect radical ...

'60s radical Kathy Boudin, convicted in the 1981 Brinks heist ...

Symbionese Liberation Army member Sara Jane Olson

George Jackson Brigade named after a black power radical killed in prison

All valid, but there are an equal number of right-wing counterexamples, especially if we don't get into the silliness of pretending that fascists don't count.

Also, please note that a vast number of the American examples are from a very specific era, and that the union organizers were sometimes up against federal troops and private headbreakers, solicited or hired by law-abiding businessmen.

This is not to deny that 'leftists' have committed violence, some of it utterly horrific--just to suggest that it's a bit more complicated than listing a lot of revolutionaries and terrorists might imply.

556 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:35:11pm

re: #538 ggt

Thanks, but I'd really love some fresh coffee with cream and sugar. Got any left?

I'll see if anyone has a pot. I don't own a coffee maker, because I don't drink coffee.

557 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:35:18pm

re: #526 unrealizedviewpoint

I personally deplore the idea of open-carrying of a weapon to a political event, but, they were not breaking any laws. The open-carry of the weapon was their political statement. Agree or disagree with their position, or politics, but certainly don't allow the gun to scare you, as it's highly unlikely they'd consider using it.

Let's pretend, for a moment, that it wasn't intended as an act of intimidation.

Let's also suppose, for the sake of argument, that none of the people with these weapons intend to use them.

Do you not agree that it's an incredibly stupid and dangerous thing to do, given that it will use up Secret Service resources watching all of these allegedly harmless folk?

And don't you think it leads to a potentially violent act -- especially since one of these geniuses actually dropped his weapon at a town hall? One of those violent lefties everyone is so concerned about could have picked it up after all.

I really don't understand why anyone is defending this practice. If the left had been doing it to Bush you'd be furious-- justifiably so.

558 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:35:30pm

re: #526 unrealizedviewpoint

I personally deplore the idea of open-carrying of a weapon to a political event, but, they were not breaking any laws. The open-carry of the weapon was their political statement. Agree or disagree with their position, or politics, but certainly don't allow the gun to scare you, as it's highly unlikely they'd consider using it.

I'm having a hard time understanding those who would defend these shitheads. They were there to make a threat. That part is not a mystery.

559 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:35:38pm

re: #548 realwest

Hi {J.D.} just waiting for my last meds to kick in then I'm off to bed!
How are y'all doing this morning?

Doing well! I've been gone and just now catching up a little. It's nice being away and then again it's good to be back.

Hope you are doing pretty well?

560 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:35:38pm

re: #546 Dark_Falcon
They flounced over Glenn Beck? What a waste. How are you doing this morning?

561 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:35:51pm

re: #547 The Shadow Do

Carrying a rifle and a leg gun to a political rally makes sense then, I guess. Fellow could get attacked by the SS or somesuch. You just never know.

By the way, I have CC in TX. I have never felt the need to brandish in public. Stupid, provocative, and threatening that is.

A CC holder who brandishes is guilty of a misdemeanor in most jurisdictions. CC means CC.

562 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:36:05pm

re: #545 haakondahl

Agreed. The part of sensitivity that I like is the sense part, as in common sense. Carrying a rifle around a planned Presidential appearance just isn't common sense. You don't get to grind every particular axe at every opportunity.
If the guy wants to make a point about open carry, great, but he's not doing himself any favors with this stunt.
Americans have the right to do very dumb things, and this is one of them. I would hope that his friends or family would break the news to him with a size twelve.

yet, I don't think some guy with cowboy boots and a revolver or automatic in a holster is going to garner the same attention, even at a political rally. Probably wouldn't even get noticed.

563 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:36:23pm

re: #537 haakondahl

Are you out to get me?

heh

564 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:36:41pm

re: #560 realwest

They flounced over Glenn Beck? What a waste.


Agreed.

565 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:36:46pm

re: #506 SFGoth

I really can't afford to feed stray cats gourmet turkey slices every day and it's probably not good for them. Toonses came right up to me from day one and said, "I'm cute, feed me bee-yotch, oh, and rub my face, yeah, thaaat's it. Oh man, gotta wiz, where's your sandbox? WTF do you mean you don't have a sand box. Listen sucker, I mean, human, you feed me, you rub my face, you provide me with litter, and don't get up when I'm curled up in your lap. Them's the rules. Meow!"

If you haven't already, you need to watch "Bolt"!

566 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:36:49pm

re: #547 The Shadow Do

Carrying a rifle and a leg gun to a political rally makes sense then, I guess. Fellow could get attacked by the SS or somesuch. You just never know.

By the way, I have CC in TX. I have never felt the need to brandish in public. Stupid, provocative, and threatening that is.

No, it doesn't make sense. But your initial statement was a bit broad. Clarified as you have just done, I agree with you.

567 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:37:01pm

re: #540 realwest

"When you see someone hitchhiking in McKinley park with a rifle and six gun you give him a lift," Uh, no thanks, I'll let you give him or her a ride; I'll just speed up to get outta range!
BTW, where is McKinley park?

Used to be in the middle of Alaska.

568 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:37:03pm

re: #552 Van Helsing

The whole story was covered in posts. Like the one that has a video of them joking about "watering the tree of liberty" before going. They got thoroughly outted in a thread here and followup post. They are associated with some very dangerous loons, you don't want me to link the sites to prove the point either.

569 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:37:50pm

re: #534 Dark_Falcon

The Order back in the 80's. Aryan Nations. Viper Militia. Aryan Brotherhood in prison. And that's just for starters.

The Order I've never heard of. The Viper Militia was local - Phoenix area. I don't recall them being prosecuted for anything but weapons charges, i.e., no robberies, bombings, etc. I could be mis-remembering.

Aryan Brotherhood, yeah, I wasn't thinking prison gangs.

570 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:38:15pm

Um, Iceweaselchen, why no dog? There is a dog out there waiting for you to give herm a name!

571 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:38:20pm

re: #423 swamprat

Of course if you want to talk about present day leftist violence, we will have to go out of America. But we can easily do so.

So who is Glenn Beck arming himself against? Sendero Luminoso? I don't think they're out to get him.

572 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:38:48pm

re: #568 Thanos

The whole story was covered in posts. Like the one that has a video of them joking about "watering the tree of liberty" before going. They got thoroughly outted in a thread here and followup post. They are associated with some very dangerous loons, you don't want me to link the sites to prove the point either.

Yes, and actually, as I recall, once Charles had a thread with a video made by the gunbringers, they turned out to be so dangerously nutty that most of their support here evaporated pretty quickly, among people who watched the video.

573 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:38:50pm

re: #552 Van Helsing

The local news there "reported" it without that relevant information to begin with.

Too ridiculous.

574 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:39:02pm

re: #569 Van Helsing

The Order I've never heard of. The Viper Militia was local - Phoenix area. I don't recall them being prosecuted for anything but weapons charges, i.e., no robberies, bombings, etc. I could be mis-remembering.

Aryan Brotherhood, yeah, I wasn't thinking prison gangs.

Five of them or more were sent to jail.

575 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:39:08pm

re: #552 Van Helsing

Guns at VFW/Obama meet.

I keep forgetting that the whole story on this probably didn't make the national news.
These clowns had been in contact with the police before the event. The police were aware they would be there to make a 'statement'.

Read the story. If they would have covered this in the MSM you would also know that the gent with the AR15 was black. MSNBC decided that didn't fit their 'racist' narrative so they only showed the rifle and his shirt.

Nice that the MSM reported that the protesters informed the police ahead of time. Maybe not so much nutballs?

576 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:39:15pm

re: #545 haakondahl

Agreed. The part of sensitivity that I like is the sense part, as in common sense. Carrying a rifle around a planned Presidential appearance just isn't common sense. You don't get to grind every particular axe at every opportunity.
If the guy wants to make a point about open carry, great, but he's not doing himself any favors with this stunt.
Americans have the right to do very dumb things, and this is one of them. I would hope that his friends or family would break the news to him with a size twelve.

Incidentally, if the USSS deemed him a threat and hauled him in, I would support it. He is taking his rights into uncharted territory, where judgement calls are appropriate. No need to get all lawyered up on this one--if the guys who keep the President safe say you gots ta go, then you gots ta go.

577 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:39:27pm

re: #550 Thanos
Thanks and thanks for the beautiful photo, too!

578 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:39:44pm

And, in the WTF file...
Today at Staples & the grocery store there were Lyndon LaRouche booths with Obama pictures with Hitler moustaches drawn on them.
Some petition to "kill Obamacare" was offered for your signature.
YUCK!

579 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:40:12pm

re: #558 The Shadow Do

I'm having a hard time understanding those who would defend these shitheads. They were there to make a threat. That part is not a mystery.

I'm glad you can read minds. You obviously know for certain they were there to make a threat. You know for certain they were not there simply making a political statement.
/Serve on jury's much? Yikes!

580 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:40:28pm

re: #578 Floral Giraffe

And, in the WTF file...
Today at Staples & the grocery store there were Lyndon LaRouche booths with Obama pictures with Hitler moustaches drawn on them.
Some petition to "kill Obamacare" was offered for your signature.
YUCK!

The woodwork is almost empty...everything has crawled out of it already

581 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:40:29pm

re: #439 swamprat

Violence is one of the tools used by the left.
Homework;
"the end(s?) justify the means"
Look it up. Find the context and the source.
Get back to me on the "peaceful" leftist movement.

Who said the leftist movement (as though there was only one) was peaceful?

582 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:40:36pm

re: #556 Dark_Falcon

I'll see if anyone has a pot. I don't own a coffee maker, because I don't drink coffee.

Dark Falcon! I wouldn't tell anybody else if I were you. I'll pretend I didn't know at all.

:)

583 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:41:03pm

re: #549 keithgabryelski

Your position is noted. Do you have anything to add to the current discussion?

In particular: Is there a history of violence from the left that would suggest the controlling powers (Democrats) will be coming for right wingers in such a way that warrants "be prepared for violence" talk from Ron Paul?

No, there is not. At this point violence would be bad for business. The underdog uses violence to bring about change. Let the tide turn and the left will revert to their previously stated methods. Those methods are well documented and are part of the writings of the founders of the magnificence of that which we call "the left". Thems the facts, do with them as you will.

584 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:41:32pm

re: #577 realwest

Thanks and thanks for the beautiful photo, too!

It's not my best, it was taken with a long telephoto lens from a moving train. I love the new image stabilizers they build into lenses now.

585 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:41:46pm

re: #559 J.D.
Well I'm doing ok - I'm beginning to think that taking all this heavy duty medications for over four years, while it has held the cancer at bay up until a few months ago, has had a somewhat deletrious effect on my body.
Glad to hear you're doing well!

586 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:41:58pm

re: #575 ggt

Nice that the MSM reported that the protesters informed the police ahead of time. Maybe not so much nutballs?

They were totally nutballs, even though they did do the right thing by phoning ahead to the police and communicating their plans.

MSNBC's deliberate concealment of the fact that the AR-15 guy was black, followed by their little on-camera banter about how scary these racist white people with guns are, was a particularly disgusting piece of left-wing bias. I can't believe the MSM gets away with things like that, but they frequently do.

587 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:41:59pm

re: #554 Sharmuta

I don't write that blog, but I did find an interesting link about dieting and nutrition today I was hoping to share, so thanks for the opening:

The "Pistachio Principle" of Weight Loss

I hope any Lizards who are dieting or have friends or family dieting pass on this link.

Is this about smaller portions? Always take two or three trips to the buffet, or leave some Mac & Cheese in the pot. Ods are that by the time you get around to deciding whether to have seconds (or thirds), your "full" signal will have kicked in. But if you grab it all at once, you will obey your "DAMN I'M HUNGRY" signal, which has a Chicken Little reputation.

588 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:42:02pm

re: #523 Van Helsing

Doing something LEGAL that you find to be unreasonable isn't quite the same thing as the SLA kidnapping Patty Hearst for instance and then engaging in bank robberies where I believe at least one person was killed.

As to secessionists and white supremacist types, I could use some examples from the last 50 years.

Let me be clearer: I thought the gun and sign was advocating the assassination of a sitting president.

Considering the quote on the sign was also the quote Tim McVeigh had on his shirt when he was captured, you'd think anyone who cared about even the consideration of which side they were one would stand far away from that quote.

Bank robbers: 1996
[Link: www.adl.org...]

589 KingKenrod  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:42:16pm

re: #554 Sharmuta

I don't write that blog, but I did find an interesting link about dieting and nutrition today I was hoping to share, so thanks for the opening:

The "Pistachio Principle" of Weight Loss

I hope any Lizards who are dieting or have friends or family dieting pass on this link.

I've found I can get away with eating a lot less by eating slow, and by eating vegetables first if eating a large meal. But it's hard to circumvent decades of learned behavior.

590 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:42:25pm

re: #580 Desert Dog

Glad to have some explanation...
Whacko's be rampant!

591 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:42:37pm

re: #552 Van Helsing

Guns at VFW/Obama meet.

I keep forgetting that the whole story on this probably didn't make the national news.
These clowns had been in contact with the police before the event. The police were aware they would be there to make a 'statement'.

Read the story. If they would have covered this in the MSM you would also know that the gent with the AR15 was black. MSNBC decided that didn't fit their 'racist' narrative so they only showed the rifle and his shirt.

Shadow, Not a political statement?

592 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:42:40pm

re: #556 Dark_Falcon

I'll see if anyone has a pot. I don't own a coffee maker, because I don't drink coffee.

Hey! My kid was watching that Pawn Shop reality show on whatever channel and some guy brought in a blunderbus. Strange as I had just learned about arquebuses. They actually took it to a range and fired it to make sure it worked. Loud noise, nice little puff of smoke.

Which brings me to my next firearm related question. What is the difference between the two? Arquebus uses live flame and blunderbus uses a flint?

593 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:42:59pm

re: #560 realwest

They flounced over Glenn Beck? What a waste. How are you doing this morning?

i got another of my key quotas into the green today and that's good. However, I had a fairly nasty customer today. She called and complained to the managers that I was incompetent because I could not save her contact list from a phone with a major firmware error. Thankfully, management has affirmed that my actions were competent, though they provided some suggestions for making thing go more smoothly next time. I won't be getting in trouble because I did not wrong anyone in any way and my actions were well within procedure. An annoying situation, but not one I need to worry about. If I can keep most of my quotas in the green, I'll be fine.

594 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:43:08pm

Please read Charles' post here before you go in too deep, read the comment thread as well, there's a lot more info there.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

595 Van Helsing  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:43:15pm

re: #575 ggt

Nice that the MSM reported that the protesters informed the police ahead of time. Maybe not so much nutballs?

No, they're attention whores. I don't think they did themselves any real favors, but they did get noticed.

And with that, a good evening to all.

596 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:43:25pm

re: #587 haakondahl

NOPE! Not about smaller portions at all. Read it- it's not long at all.

597 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:43:36pm

re: #567 haakondahl

Used to be in the middle of Alaska.

Um, you mean they moved the park someplace else? Why?

598 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:43:43pm

re: #557 iceweasel

I really don't understand why anyone is defending this practice. If the left had been doing it to Bush you'd be furious-- justifiably so.

Don't be silly. The left doesn't have any guns. They have people for that.

599 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:43:48pm

re: #555 SanFranciscoZionist

True enough. Every general who ever ousted an "el presidente" is a righty.

600 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:43:49pm

Interesting. Just came across this story:

Christopher Broughton's Pastor Steven Anderson Prays for President Barack Obama's Death

Remember the crazy Tempe pastor who was Tasered at a U.S. Border Patrol checkpoint *** back in April: Steven Anderson of the Faithful Word Baptist Church? The same fella that Christopher Broughton, the anti-Obama, anarchist AR-15-carrying activist, declared to be his pastor on conspiranut moonhowler Alex Jones' radio show?

Well, as has been reported on Crooks and Liars and MSNBC, the day before Broughton brought his loaded assault rifle to a demonstration outside where the President was speaking in downtown Phoenix, Pastor Anderson was preaching hate for President Obama, and praying for the Chief Executive's death.

SNIP

Yeah, it's partially from Crooks and Liars but regardless of that Mr. Broughton has been already associated with RP4409, Viper Militia, and other militant groups.

More here:

[Link: news.google.com...]

601 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:43:53pm

re: #579 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm glad you can read minds. You obviously know for certain they were there to make a threat. You know for certain they were not there simply making a political statement.
/Serve on jury's much? Yikes!

You meet someone, a total stranger, openly hauling about a couple of guns. You can assume the intentions of said toter
are benign. Or you can get the hell away from him. This is called survival instinct. Trust will get your ass killed.

602 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:44:22pm

re: #585 realwest


*SMOOCHIES*
{RW}

Anyone heard from HoosierHoops & his warrior's arrival today?

603 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:44:38pm

re: #579 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm glad you can read minds. You obviously know for certain they were there to make a threat. You know for certain they were not there simply making a political statement.
/Serve on jury's much? Yikes!

Of course they were there to make a threat. IIRC, they explicitly elaborated that threat in their video, or maybe it was on their website. The threat was a general one, that the government should fear the people, because the people are armed, and the people are pissed. It was not a specific threat, like "I'm going to kill the president today." Although the man with the "tree of liberty" poster was, I'd say, coming actionably close to such a specific threat.

604 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:44:52pm

re: #592 ggt

Hey! My kid was watching that Pawn Shop reality show on whatever channel and some guy brought in a blunderbus. Strange as I had just learned about arquebuses. They actually took it to a range and fired it to make sure it worked. Loud noise, nice little puff of smoke.

Which brings me to my next firearm related question. What is the difference between the two? Arquebus uses live flame and blunderbus uses a flint?

I'll look that one up. I don't know the answer off the top of my head.

605 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:45:02pm

re: #459 swamprat

The left has a history of violence. That is a fact.

The human race has a history of violence.

606 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:45:37pm

Also note that I have picked up people hitch-hiking with rifles and pistols in Mt. Mckinley park. Don't know if I would still do that nowadays.

607 Mich-again  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:46:10pm

re: #557 iceweasel

If the left had been doing it to Bush you'd be furious-- justifiably so.

Agreed. I don't get that tactic at all. If you want to get rid of Obama, do it with the ballot box. And if you want to preserve CC rights, use them wisely.

Idiots who think they are making a stand for their rights by showing up at political rallies brandishing weapons don't accomplish anything for the cause. The opposite in fact. A true advocate would not try so hard to give lefty politicians so much bulletin board material.

608 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:46:27pm

re: #591 unrealizedviewpoint

Shadow, Not a political statement?

Fresh information which helps. Of course someone has to take them at their word that it is just a demonstration. Personally, I'm outa there.

609 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:46:46pm

re: #602 Floral Giraffe

*SMOOCHIES*
{RW}

Anyone heard from HoosierHoops & his warrior's arrival today?

I just took my dad out for Baltimore crabs and beer to celebrate his 75th birthday. If Hoops and his son have more tolerance for fun than this old fart and his pop, they're still swillin'!

610 SFGoth  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:47:25pm

re: #527 J.D.

Is there an lgfer who writes this blog?
The 3 Monkeys Guide to Health
It's interesting...


...to me.

Dunno, but grapeseed oil is supposed to be quite healthy.

611 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:47:55pm

re: #578 Floral Giraffe
Hi there {Floral Giraffe} How are you doing this morning?
And WTH were Lyndon LaRouche booths doing in a Staples anyway, with or without posters?!

612 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:48:29pm

re: #459 swamprat

The left has a history of violence. That is a fact.

And the right is known for cuddly bunnies and the occasional shoah.

Who's counting?

613 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:48:35pm

re: #601 The Shadow Do

You meet someone, a total stranger, openly hauling about a couple of guns. You can assume the intentions of said toter
are benign. Or you can get the hell away from him. This is called survival instinct. Trust will get your ass killed.

I'm with you on this. If I'm walking on a trail in the woods and I see a guy with a rifle, I'll say hello (and make sure I'm wearing an orange hat!) But if I'm in a major metropolis like Phoenix, attending an event where people are likely to get very emotional and possibly angry, like a political demonstration or a sporting event, I'm going to get the hell away from the guy with the gun. Not because I think he had any intention of using it when he decided to bring it. Just because the mixture of guns and heated arguments very volatile.

614 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:49:40pm

re: #554 Sharmuta

I've always tended to go OT.
:-D

Good advice there!

615 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:49:53pm

re: #603 Last Mohican

Of course they were there to make a threat. IIRC, they explicitly elaborated that threat in their video, or maybe it was on their website. The threat was a general one, that the government should fear the people, because the people are armed, and the people are pissed. It was not a specific threat, like "I'm going to kill the president today." Although the man with the "tree of liberty" poster was, I'd say, coming actionably close to such a specific threat.

Their actions, and who they are, is deplorable. But, they broke no laws. They were no threat. If they were a threat they would have been arrested. Hello!

616 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:50:52pm

re: #613 Last Mohican

I'm with you on this. If I'm walking on a trail in the woods and I see a guy with a rifle, I'll say hello (and make sure I'm wearing an orange hat!) But if I'm in a major metropolis like Phoenix, attending an event where people are likely to get very emotional and possibly angry, like a political demonstration or a sporting event, I'm going to get the hell away from the guy with the gun. Not because I think he had any intention of using it when he decided to bring it. Just because the mixture of guns and heated arguments very volatile.

I may be showing my ignorance here, but if you *think* you may be going in to a situation in which self-defence might be necessary, would you CC a pistol or open-carry a long gun? I don't get the logic of carrying a long-gun around. Damn heavy, if you ask me.

617 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:50:56pm

re: #611 realwest

Hi there {Floral Giraffe} How are you doing this morning?
And WTH were Lyndon LaRouche booths doing in a Staples anyway, with or without posters?!

Maybe they were outside the Staples? I've seen Lyndon LaRouche booths pop up here and there. It's always a weird experience, when someone's just standing there right in front of you, trying to hand you a pamphlet with a bunch of obscene hateful stuff in it. I never quite know what to do. Merely refusing the pamphlet doesn't seem to be enough. But getting into an argument with a LaRouche supporter isn't going to lead to anything worthwhile.

618 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:51:08pm

re: #583 swamprat

No, there is not. At this point violence would be bad for business. The underdog uses violence to bring about change.

You should mention that to Martin Luther King Jr. ... Oh, that's right ...

619 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:51:20pm

re: #570 Cato the Elder

Um, Iceweaselchen, why no dog? There is a dog out there waiting for you to give herm a name!

Ave, Cato!

I love dogs. Love them. My current living situation wouldn't be good for a dog. Also, I'm too feckless at the moment. Not home enough at regular hours, etc. It's all those orgies and America-hating rallies I'm attending.

I can't wait to have one again though, one day. ;)

620 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:52:18pm

re: #615 unrealizedviewpoint

Their actions, and who they are, is deplorable. But, they broke no laws. They were no threat. If they were a threat they would have been arrested. Hello!

I kinda compare it to some of zombie's photo essays. Legal and just-not-right. Although, if push came to shove, I don't think I'd want to be in close quarters with the zombie crowd.

621 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:52:22pm

re: #593 Dark_Falcon Well, we've "discussed" this before, but I'm telling ya, even in this shitty economy, I do wish you'd find another, LESS STRESSFUL line of work!

622 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:52:24pm

re: #615 unrealizedviewpoint

Their actions, and who they are, is deplorable. But, they broke no laws. They were no threat. If they were a threat they would have been arrested. Hello!

Well, they didn't break the law but they broke the unwritten laws of common sense and decency.

623 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:52:54pm

re: #619 iceweasel

Ave, Cato!

I love dogs. Love them. My current living situation wouldn't be good for a dog. Also, I'm too feckless at the moment. Not home enough at regular hours, etc. It's all those orgies and America-hating rallies I'm attending.

I can't wait to have one again though, one day. ;)

You know what, I'm planning on breeding Jindos after I move to Maine. Once I get that going and your lifestyle settles down a bit, I might even let you apply for a puppy!

624 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:52:59pm

I would love to stay and badger the lefties

...uh engage in more well-reasoned debate; but I am having trouble with posting, and I must needs sleep.

G'night all.
T'was fun.

625 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:53:29pm

going to get coffee, bbiab

626 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:53:56pm

re: #609 Cato the Elder

Congratulations to you & your Dad! That's great!

627 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:54:17pm

re: #599 swamprat

True enough. Every general who ever ousted an "el presidente" is a righty.


Does that include Daniel Ortega? Fidel Castro?

628 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:54:46pm

re: #622 Gus 802

Well, they didn't break the law but they broke the unwritten laws of common sense and decency.

Isn't that what they are, indecent?

629 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:55:08pm

re: #600 Gus 802

Interesting. Just came across this story:

Christopher Broughton's Pastor Steven Anderson Prays for President Barack Obama's Death

Yeah, it's partially from Crooks and Liars but regardless of that Mr. Broughton has been already associated with RP4409, Viper Militia, and other militant groups.

More here:

[Link: news.google.com...]

I am sure G-D is smiling each time Rev. Steve opens his pie hole. I am sooo happy these guys are all from AZ. I feel so proud...UGH

630 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:55:14pm

re: #621 realwest

Well, we've "discussed" this before, but I'm telling ya, even in this shitty economy, I do wish you'd find another, LESS STRESSFUL line of work!

I'll try. It's hard going, and I don't have much time to search. I will start getting some references though. There are few people prepping those for me. I'll most likely have to wait for an upturn to leave retail, however. The other jobs I qualify for aren't hiring right now.

631 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:55:42pm

re: #585 realwest

Well I'm doing ok - I'm beginning to think that taking all this heavy duty medications for over four years, while it has held the cancer at bay up until a few months ago, has had a somewhat deletrious effect on my body.
Glad to hear you're doing well!

I am so sorry you are going through this. I wish you weren't.

And I am glad you are here. A whole lot of us are.

632 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:55:52pm

re: #523 Van Helsing

Doing something LEGAL that you find to be unreasonable isn't quite the same thing as the SLA kidnapping Patty Hearst for instance and then engaging in bank robberies where I believe at least one person was killed.

As to secessionists and white supremacist types, I could use some examples from the last 50 years.

Keith Luke

James Von Brunn

Shawna Forde

Walter Anthony Dille

Daniel Cowart and Paul Schlesselman, who, thank God did not carry out their plans.

White supremacists do have this tendency to violence.

633 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:56:22pm

re: #628 unrealizedviewpoint

Isn't that what they are, indecent?

No, they are narcissistic attention whoring punks. If don't think they are dangerous you haven't looked very hard at their background, or the fact that most jihadis start off as narcissistic attention whoring punks.

634 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:56:34pm

re: #627 realwest

Does that include Daniel Ortega? Fidel Castro?


Manuel Zelaya?

635 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:56:56pm

Ottawa Bank attacked for its sponsorshiop of the 2010 Olympics.

/Dirty right wingers resorting to mayhem or faaahbulous lefties making a witty statement? You decide...

636 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:57:05pm

re: #602 Floral Giraffe

Hey {Floral Giraffe} - Smoochies back to you and no, I haven't heard - but I haven't been on LGF very much today and will be off most of tomorrow.
Damn real life interferring with my fun!

637 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:57:20pm

re: #632 SanFranciscoZionist

White supremacists do have this tendency to violence.

What harm could a few ethnic nationalists do? ///

638 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:57:27pm

re: #623 Cato the Elder

You know what, I'm planning on breeding Jindos after I move to Maine. Once I get that going and your lifestyle settles down a bit, I might even let you apply for a puppy!

Ooh, lucky you. And Maine too-- So lucky!

I have to take off now, but it's been fun as ever. Take care all!

Vale, Cato, Goodnight swamprat, DF, everyone else and John-Boy.

cheers, idub

639 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:58:05pm

re: #633 Thanos

No, they are narcissistic attention whoring punks. If don't think they are dangerous you haven't looked very hard at their background, or the fact that most jihadis start off as narcissistic attention whoring punks.

I'm confident the One will keep me safe from them.

640 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:58:06pm

re: #629 Desert Dog

I am sure G-D is smiling each time Rev. Steve opens his pie hole. I am sooo happy these guys are all from AZ. I feel so proud...UGH

That Rev. Anderson has been mentioned before here at LGF. I think he's the one that claimed to be "beaten" by the border patrol. Christopher Broughton also belongs to some anti-border police groups like RP4409. Some of his old meet-up group interests (Chris Broughton's):

Impeach Bush
Anti-Death Penalty
Anti-Police Misconduct
Anarchy
Fight Big Media
Stop the Patriot Act

[Link: 74.125.155.132...][no phone numbers allowed]&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

641 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:58:34pm

Hulu now has Season 6 of SG-1 available, so I'm going to catch up on some favorite episodes...

Keep on fighting the good fight, lizards.

642 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:59:00pm

re: #640 Gus 802

Oops, didn't intend for that phone number to show up.

643 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:59:04pm

re: #372 Walter L. Newton

I said I question his scientific skills, that's the epitome of science and critical thinking.

Because I believe in G-d?

You seem to be having a serious reading comprehension problem here Walter.

I said that science and faith are separate things that answer separate questions. The analysis of data does not involve faith.

Faith, is by definition belief, in things which can not be proven analytically.

There is no way to do an experiment on G-d. G-d is outside of science's preview. More importantly, science can not answer why questions. It can only answer how questions.

How did he die? This is a scientific question. We can talk about all of the functions of his body. We can talk about pathology etc...

Why did he die? There is no equation or measure for that question. The two spheres do not intersect in their core construction.

The intersection of faith and science is in questions of "should?"

Should we clone? Should we make AI? etc...

But that is a different topic.

If you honestly believe that all scientists must be some Star Trek visage of emotionless bipedal computers, you do us a great disservice. You have also just bought a very narrow and foolish Hollywood line.

The fact is that as long as you keep your beliefs out of your analysis, there is no contradiction.

644 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 9:59:29pm

re: #611 realwest

Staples was for a special notebook my nephew wanted. Grocery store was for veggies! It was the GOOD grocery store. I think I might have offended the LaRouchers, with my rather loud, but involuntary WTF!
LOL! Luap Nor, I'd have expected, but LaRouche???

How are you, my friend? Is it end of summer hot where you are?

645 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:00:05pm

re: #558 The Shadow Do

I'm having a hard time understanding those who would defend these shitheads. They were there to make a threat. That part is not a mystery.

Some people are so committed to the 2nd Amendment that the suggestions that there are places not to take a gun offends them.

Me, I am so committed to the Third that I won't even let my brother-in-law the Army specialist nap on my couch.

646 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:00:25pm

re: #640 Gus 802

[Link: 74.125.155.132...][no phone numbers allowed]&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Here's his website. Looks like a really loon

Faithful Word Baptist Church

His church is about 1 mile from my office. Maybe I should stop by?

647 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:00:52pm

re: #607 Mich-again Yep. Unless of course you were in Arizona where CC permits are EXTREMELY hard to get, but open carry permits are easy (long as you're not a felon, etc).
And then it's just STUPID to say the least to carry any kind of firearm anywhere near the POTUS (unless of course you're assigned to his security detail!).

648 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:01:01pm

re: #646 Desert Dog

Here's his website. Looks like a really loon

Faithful Word Baptist Church

His church is about 1 mile from my office. Maybe I should stop by?

Yeah, that's Anderson. He even looks loony tunes.

649 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:01:07pm

re: #610 SFGoth

Dunno, but grapeseed oil is supposed to be quite healthy.

So I have heard.

I'm big on Arctic Omega fish oil.

650 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:01:22pm

re: #597 realwest

Um, you mean they moved the park someplace else? Why?

Had to make room for Denali Nat'l Park/Monument, whatever. Now McKinley Park is on a shelf in my den. Sad, really.

651 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:02:26pm

re: #630 Dark_Falcon

I'll try. It's hard going, and I don't have much time to search. I will start getting some references though. There are few people prepping those for me. I'll most likely have to wait for an upturn to leave retail, however. The other jobs I qualify for aren't hiring right now.

I don't know, I think sales is always stressful--you either thrive on it or you don't. I prefer to be in sales. 100% commission isn't always practical in retail --depending on the product and the store environment. Although I think with your POS you should be able to do fine, even in this economy. People seem to always have money for electronic stuff. Now that cell phones can be cheaper than land lines especially. It's the sales people in the larger ticket items, furniture, cars, appliances --even windows and doors, that I feel for right now.

It's times like these that the good sales people are separated from the chaff.

652 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:03:12pm

re: #628 unrealizedviewpoint

Isn't that what they are, indecent?

That works too. If they held their own event it would have been acceptable from a common sense standpoint.

653 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:04:01pm

re: #635 experiencedtraveller

Ottawa Bank attacked for its sponsorshiop of the 2010 Olympics.

/Dirty right wingers resorting to mayhem or faaahbulous lefties making a witty statement? You decide...

ecocide?

G-d help me.

654 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:04:23pm

re: #651 ggt

I don't know, I think sales is always stressful--you either thrive on it or you don't. I prefer to be in sales. 100% commission isn't always practical in retail --depending on the product and the store environment. Although I think with your POS you should be able to do fine, even in this economy. People seem to always have money for electronic stuff. Now that cell phones can be cheaper than land lines especially. It's the sales people in the larger ticket items, furniture, cars, appliances --even windows and doors, that I feel for right now.

It's times like these that the good sales people are separated from the chaff.

Agreed. If I meet my quotas, I'll be fine.

655 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:04:27pm

re: #617 Last Mohican
Well if one of his supporters tried to hand me a bunch of pamphlets or whatever, I'd wouldn't take 'em and say "No, you go ahead and throw 'em out, save us both the trouble!"

656 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:04:28pm

re: #645 SanFranciscoZionist

Some people are so committed to the 2nd Amendment that the suggestions that there are places not to take a gun offends them.

Me, I am so committed to the Third that I won't even let my brother-in-law the Army specialist nap on my couch.


LOL!

657 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:05:41pm

re: #646 Desert Dog

Here's his website. Looks like a really loon

Faithful Word Baptist Church

His church is about 1 mile from my office. Maybe I should stop by?

The only reason to vist that church would be provide its pastor with a large supply of anti-psychotics.

658 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:06:20pm

Time for me to get some sleeps

Mellow Deep Art - Antoine Dufour & Tommy Gauthier

659 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:07:16pm

Rand Paul not polling well in Kentucky.

An automated poll released last week showed Mr. Grayson leading Mr. Paul by 37% to 26% in the GOP primary race.


A Day at the Races In Kentucky
Let us hope it continues.

660 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:07:17pm

re: #657 Dark_Falcon

The only reason to vist that church would be provide its pastor with a large supply of anti-psychotics.

He's been a guest on the Alex Jones show.

Surprise! ;)

661 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:07:19pm

re: #631 J.D. Thank you very much J.D. - but if I wasn't going through it all I wouldn't be here!
LOL!

662 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:07:24pm

re: #440 Van Helsing

Ron Paul is a nut.

I agree that there advocates for violence on both sides. If you want to count recent history in this country (cuz you really can't discuss the Crusades without going into such things as the muslim conquest of Spain, and such)
in my experience over the last 50 years it's been the left that's planting bombs, robbing banks, killing cops, breaking windows, burning buildings, and in general making noisy statements advocating the overthrow of the government or 'merely' the death or prosecution of the President (see zombietime for details).

No laws were broken by anyone carrying their weapons in Phoenix. No one was threatened (unless the sight of gun makes you soil yourself).
I'm not agreeing with what they did being terribly bright but it was perfectly legal.

sorry, my previous post in response to this was on an iphone which didn't obscures my view a little, trying again:

Bombs, broken windows, bank robbers?

Secessionists and white supremacists, man.

As to the crusades... I brought them up to show I didn't want to go digging that far back in history (because we'll get into a Hatfield vs. McCoy thing that has little bearing on Ron Paul's quote)

lastly, laws broken? A man with a gun strapped to his hip showed up conspicuously close to a presidential event holding a sign that by any reasonable reading of advocated the assassination of our president.

That is unreasonable in my book.

It'd be unreasonable at a George W. Bush event (now or one year ago) and it is unreasonable now, with this president.

Note, I don't care about people calling for the impeachment of the president. It's crass but not close to a coup d'etat

663 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:07:25pm

re: #654 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. If I meet my quotas, I'll be fine.

And don't forget July/ early August is traditionally a bad time for retail sales. It starts picking-up just about . . . Now!

664 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:07:30pm

re: #636 realwest

Hey {Floral Giraffe} - Smoochies back to you and no, I haven't heard - but I haven't been on LGF very much today and will be off most of tomorrow.
Damn real life interferring with my fun!

I know how you feel. I won't be here much the next two days, even though I have them off. I've got a big game to prepare for and play. The good news is that my preparations are on track and will be done in time.

665 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:08:18pm

re: #660 Gus 802

He's been a guest on the Alex Jones show.

Surprise! ;)

He and Jones deserve each other.

666 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:08:38pm

re: #659 J.D.

Rand Paul not polling well in Kentucky.


A Day at the Races In Kentucky
Let us hope it continues.

You know, A Day at the Race in Kentucy --means HORSES! Your link title borders on heresy.

:)

667 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:08:43pm

re: #640 Gus 802

Here's the link for AR-15 guy Meetup page that should go through. Cached since he deleted everything.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

668 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:08:55pm

re: #657 Dark_Falcon

The only reason to vist that church would be provide its pastor with a large supply of anti-psychotics.

I was thinking of stopping by and telling them I am an ACORN volunteer, doing some community organizing for the local illegal alien healthcare project. You know, to see if I can get some Christian love and fellowship for poor and downtrodden. I would borrow my neighbor's car, the one with the Obama, COEXIST and Make Love Not War bumper stickers on it...

669 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:09:10pm

re: #634 The Shadow Do
You know it's funny, I distincly remember reading that he was democratically elected.

670 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:10:00pm

re: #665 Dark_Falcon

He and Jones deserve each other.

Two freak magnets in a pod. ;)

671 Randall Gross  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:11:18pm

re: #667 Gus 802

Here's the link for AR-15 guy Meetup page that should go through. Cached since he deleted everything.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

Local chapter John Birch Society right there in the sidebar

672 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:11:32pm

re: #653 ggt

ecocide?

G-d help me.

Yeah. Attack the bank because the bank supports the Olympics thus supporting 'ecocide'.

It (strangely) seems that we need some lizard to dedicate some time to publishing the routine violence of the left.

673 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:11:52pm

re: #661 realwest
You make a good point.

674 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:11:54pm

re: #668 Desert Dog

I was thinking of stopping by and telling them I am an ACORN volunteer, doing some community organizing for the local illegal alien healthcare project. You know, to see if I can get some Christian love and fellowship for poor and downtrodden. I would borrow my neighbor's car, the one with the Obama, COEXIST and Make Love Not War bumper stickers on it...

Make sure you're wearing Threat Level 3 body armor when you go, though.

/almost entirely kidding

675 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:12:02pm

re: #659 J.D.

Rand Paul not polling well in Kentucky.


A Day at the Races In Kentucky
Let us hope it continues.

In a sane world Rand Paul would not be getting more than 2% support.

676 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:12:16pm

re: #671 Thanos

Local chapter John Birch Society right there in the sidebar

Right, I forgot to mention that.

BTW, here's where Steven Anderson was also mentioned here at LGF:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

677 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:12:45pm

re: #651 ggt

I don't know, I think sales is always stressful--you either thrive on it or you don't. I prefer to be in sales. 100% commission isn't always practical in retail --depending on the product and the store environment. Although I think with your POS you should be able to do fine, even in this economy. People seem to always have money for electronic stuff. Now that cell phones can be cheaper than land lines especially. It's the sales people in the larger ticket items, furniture, cars, appliances --even windows and doors, that I feel for right now.

It's times like these that the good sales people are separated from the chaff.

Ouch! My sales are down 40% this month in a territory I have been working for many years. I refuse to think I am chaff being one year removed from sales award glory and the big, big bonus.

But I am counting on Obama to take care of me from here on out. I hear the government has all kinds of money for folks like me. Old, white, formerly affluent.
Or maybe not.

Hope! Change!

Aside: I heard Rush once say that sales was the worst of all possible careers - at the first of the month, every month, you start at zero!

678 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:13:39pm

re: #671 Thanos

Local chapter John Birch Society right there in the sidebar

I thought those guys were dead and buried...I guess not. They've moved on to new bugaboos.

679 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:14:13pm

re: #664 Dark_Falcon

I know how you feel. I won't be here much the next two days, even though I have them off. I've got a big game to prepare for and play. The good news is that my preparations are on track and will be done in time.


Well I am glad to hear that! At least you're gonna have a couple of stress free days my friend!

680 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:14:21pm

re: #675 ArchangelMichael

In a sane world Rand Paul would not be getting more than 2% support.

Even that number would be bad. When you are talking about millions of people, even only one in fifty is still a significant number is absolute terms. And it does not take many crazies to produce a tragedy.

681 J.D.  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:14:41pm

re: #666 ggt

You know, A Day at the Race in Kentucy --means HORSES! Your link title borders on heresy.

:)

Clever, though, huh?

Must hit the hay.

Night all.

682 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:15:03pm

re: #678 Desert Dog

I thought those guys were dead and buried...I guess not. They've moved on to new bugaboos.

Strange days. Both the Birch Society and the La Rouche Cult has floated back to the surface.

683 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:15:15pm

re: #667 Gus 802

Here's the link for AR-15 guy Meetup page that should go through. Cached since he deleted everything.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

Are you sure that's the same Chris who's the AR-15 guy?

684 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:15:45pm

re: #669 realwest

You know it's funny, I distincly remember reading that he was democratically elected.

And democratically removed, though our President disagrees of course.

685 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:15:47pm

re: #683 Last Mohican

Are you sure that's the same Chris who's the AR-15 guy?

Yep. Very sure. I checked it out a zillion times.

686 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:16:37pm

re: #677 The Shadow Do

Aside: I heard Rush once say that sales was the worst of all possible careers - at the first of the month, every month, you start at zero!

I would think lieutenant to dictators would be the worst career...

687 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:16:42pm

re: #684 The Shadow Do

And democratically removed, though our President disagrees of course.


Yep, of course he does!

688 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:17:02pm

re: #679 realwest

Well I am glad to hear that! At least you're gonna have a couple of stress free days my friend!

Indeed. I love these games. Preping minis for them is difficult, but I do get a lot of pride from being able to do the work well. How are you getting along, friend?

689 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:17:50pm

re: #686 Sharmuta

I would think lieutenant to dictators would be the worst career...

"Apology accepted Captain Needa..."

690 realwest  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:17:57pm

And I hate to do it, but I gotta leave and get some sleep now!
Hope you allhave a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!


Good night, all.

691 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:18:15pm

re: #690 realwest

And I hate to do it, but I gotta leave and get some sleep now!
Hope you allhave a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

Good night, all.

Good night RW.

692 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:18:29pm

re: #686 Sharmuta

I would think lieutenant to dictators would be the worst career...

Yeah, hard to make pension in that job.

693 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:18:34pm

re: #689 ArchangelMichael

"Apology accepted Captain Needa..."

OK- Stormtrooper is the worst career.

694 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:18:51pm

Six truths of life

1. You cannot touch all your teeth with your tongue.

2. All idiots, after reading the first 'truth', will try it.

3. The first truth is a lie.

4. You are smiling now because you're an idiot.

5. You will soon forward this to another idiot.

6. There is still a stupid smile on your face.

You hang in there sunshine, you're special.

695 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:19:35pm

re: #678 Desert Dog

I thought those guys were dead and buried...I guess not. They've moved on to new bugaboos.

Apparently, WFB was personally holding them at bay all these years.

696 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:19:42pm

re: #690 realwest

And I hate to do it, but I gotta leave and get some sleep now!
Hope you allhave a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!


Good night, all.

Goodnight Sir West

697 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:19:47pm

re: #693 Sharmuta

OK- Stormtrooper is the worst career.

Hey Mom, great news! I graduated from Stormtrooper school and I've been assigned to the Death Star!

698 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:21:35pm

re: #682 Gus 802

Some of which is being promoted by a libertarian that certain folks would like to repackage as a conservative.

699 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:22:02pm

I just captured and released back into the wild a moth that's been flying around my living room for two days. How much karma is that worth?

700 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:22:23pm

re: #113 quickjustice

Science is a method of observing, measuring, and analyzing the physical universe. Religion is a system for communicating with a Higher, Metaphysical Power.

Thank you.

I am a person of very deep faith. I believe strongly in my Gods (I'm pagan, so I get more than one). I believe that there are things that are, for lack of a better word, pre-ordained in people's lives.

I also believe that my Gods gave me a brain to think with, eyes to see with and a consciousness to comprehend the magick and mystery of their creation with.

When I think with my religious functions, I'm concerned with the purpose of my life. That's when I think about what's going to happen to me when I die. When I think with my logical functions, I'm concerned with the mechanics of my life. That's when I worry about what's going to happen to me tomorrow.

They are not mutually incompatible. Anyone who thinks they are is vastly underestimating what Deity wants us to do with our lives, the world we've been given and the gifts we get.

If $deity wanted us to just accept things without thinking about them, questioning them and anylizing them, they'd have made us dogs.

Maybe we'd have been better off - my dog is a heck of a lot happier and less preoccupied than I am.

701 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:22:39pm

re: #698 Slumbering Behemoth

Some of which is being promoted by a libertarian that certain folks would like to repackage as a conservative.

Unfortunately that is very true.

702 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:22:56pm

re: #685 Gus 802

Yep. Very sure. I checked it out a zillion times.

I find people just fascinating. Here's a guy whose interests include the Free State Project, "anarchy," bringing weapons to political demonstrations, and ending compulsory public education. But he also enjoys cycling, dogs, and digital photography. And, most interesting of all, he lists "shyness and social anxiety." Now, I hate to pry into a man's personal issues like this, and I'm glad that he found the strength and insight to confront this problem and seek out others who share it. However... the AR-15 thing was fundamentally an attention-getting stunt. It was designed to result in a swarm of people watching him, videotaping him, and interviewing him on camera. There was great potential for very anxiety-producing outcomes, like being arrested, or even being shot by a secret service agent who somehow got confused about what was going on.

And as I recall, Chris looked pretty calm through the whole thing. It's not the sort of activity one stereotypically associates with a person who's dealing with social anxiety.

703 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:23:38pm

re: #699 Sharmuta

I just captured and released back into the wild a moth that's been flying around my living room for two days. How much karma is that worth?

Damned moths are what's wrong with this country!

704 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:23:42pm

re: #699 Sharmuta

I just captured and released back into the wild a moth that's been flying around my living room for two days. How much karma is that worth?

1 point, because that's all I can give you. ;)

705 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:23:50pm

re: #699 Sharmuta

I just captured and released back into the wild a moth that's been flying around my living room for two days. How much karma is that worth?

At least one point from me. :)

706 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:24:03pm

Negative one. Little bastard dead bodies pile up in my windows forcing me to dismantle and clean. I don't like to do windows!

707 I am smarter than you  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:24:18pm

I see that LGF has not gotten any less phallocentric since I was last here.

708 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:25:13pm

re: #706 The Shadow Do

Negative one. Little bastard dead bodies pile up in my windows forcing me to dismantle and clean. I don't like to do windows!

But I released a spider last month!

709 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:25:16pm

re: #693 Sharmuta

OK- Stormtrooper is the worst career.

Dammit, I had friends on that death star.

710 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:26:02pm

re: #702 Last Mohican

I find people just fascinating. Here's a guy whose interests include the Free State Project, "anarchy," bringing weapons to political demonstrations, and ending compulsory public education. But he also enjoys cycling, dogs, and digital photography. And, most interesting of all, he lists "shyness and social anxiety." Now, I hate to pry into a man's personal issues like this, and I'm glad that he found the strength and insight to confront this problem and seek out others who share it. However... the AR-15 thing was fundamentally an attention-getting stunt. It was designed to result in a swarm of people watching him, videotaping him, and interviewing him on camera. There was great potential for very anxiety-producing outcomes, like being arrested, or even being shot by a secret service agent who somehow got confused about what was going on.

And as I recall, Chris looked pretty calm through the whole thing. It's not the sort of activity one stereotypically associates with a person who's dealing with social anxiety.

It blows my mind that the free staters are still out there. I was the ED for a state Libertarian Party 7 years ago, and got all sorts of insane email from the free staters - apparantly my state was under consideration for the project and they wanted my help.

Those emails got filed right next to the Nigerian Prince's.

711 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:26:25pm

re: #702 Last Mohican

True. Perhaps it was a way for him to work through shyness issues. Maybe he's running with the running crowd as they say. He is very young so there may be a chance he grow out of this phase.

712 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:26:52pm

re: #706 The Shadow Do

Negative one. Little bastard dead bodies pile up in my windows forcing me to dismantle and clean. I don't like to do windows!

So go Linux.

/oh, wait, that's not what you meant.

713 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:27:06pm

re: #703 haakondahl

Damned moths are what's wrong with this country!

Mothist!

//

714 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:27:09pm

re: #707 I am smarter than you

Why you gotta come in and piss all over the place?

715 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:27:37pm

re: #707 I am smarter than you

Phalluses "R" Us

717 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:28:37pm

re: #708 Sharmuta

But I released a spider last month!

I trap and release anything that I can catch.

The little lizards that crawl in are resistant to being relocated to safety, but I try.

718 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:29:04pm

re: #707 I am smarter than you

I see that LGF has not gotten any less phallocentric since I was last here.

You should not have started your name with one.

719 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:29:16pm

re: #707 I am smarter than you

I see that LGF has not gotten any less phallocentric since I was last here.

Well, there's a large number of conservatives here, and you know how we revere our former President, Ronald Reagan.

720 I am smarter than you  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:29:16pm

re: #714 Racer X

Why you gotta come in and piss all over the place?

I thought I'd come over and squat for a bit.

Don't get wee weed up about it.

721 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:29:36pm

re: #716 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh brother.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

/jedi talking points?

Doesn't work in this case. We already know that Barack is a Sith Lord known as Darth Bama.

722 Last Mohican  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:30:05pm

re: #686 Sharmuta

I would think lieutenant to dictators would be the worst career...

This reminds me of a piece that Norm MacDonald did on SNL, years ago. I was just trying to find the clip, but I can't. It was something like this:

U.S. News and World Report has released its annual survey of the best and worst jobs in America. Repeating this year as "best job": Interactive business systems analyst.

However, this year, there's a new "Worst Job in America", replacing the job that was number one for the last five consecutive years - "Crack Whore".

The new number one: "Assistant Crack Whore"

723 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:30:09pm

re: #707 I am smarter than you

You're projecting. Just go get laid and be done with your obsession.

724 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:30:10pm

re: #707 I am smarter than you

I see that LGF has not gotten any less phallocentric since I was last here.

Great that you're back! Are you still selling that gender non-neutral art?
I.Q. 163?

Welcome back!

725 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:30:19pm

re: #707 I am smarter than you

I see that LGF has not gotten any less phallocentric since I was last here.

I am smarter than you

Raised in Low Brow Lake, Wis. Undergrad in Madison. Working on my PhD in Feminist Mathematics at UC Irvine. Dissertation : "The Number 1 - phallocentric implement of oppression"

(Logged in)
Registered since: Aug 14, 2009 at 6:57 pm
No. of comments posted: 10
No. of links posted: 0

You should get a new word. "Phallocentric" is not that cool.

726 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:30:23pm
727 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:30:39pm

re: #720 I am smarter than you

I thought I'd come over and squat for a bit.

Don't get wee weed up about it.

Heh. You said weed.

728 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:30:51pm

re: #723 Slumbering Behemoth

You're projecting. Just go get laid and be done with your obsession.

Now don't be a dick.

729 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:31:26pm

re: #727 Racer X

Heh. You said weed.

Because with weed it's important to separate the males and females! :D

730 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:31:57pm

re: #725 cliffster

You should get a new word. "Phallocentric" is not that cool.

especially if one happens to be either "phalloless" or "mini-phalloed"

731 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:32:22pm

re: #721 Dark_Falcon

Doesn't work in this case. We already know that Barack is a Sith Lord known as Darth Bama.

In this case, it does. Watch until the end. Beck tries pulling an Obi-Wan.

732 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:32:39pm
733 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:33:34pm

Priapussy, is that you?

734 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:33:35pm

re: #732 Gus 802

Trouble in Obama town. Cindy Sheehan shows up at Martha's Vineyard.

Obama would probably rather have the frothy Paulians than Cindy.

735 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:34:29pm

re: #734 Desert Dog

Obama would probably rather have the frothy Paulians than Cindy.

True. Many Sheehan followers are actually a part of his base.

736 The Shadow Do  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:34:45pm

re: #699 Sharmuta

I just captured and released back into the wild a moth that's been flying around my living room for two days. How much karma is that worth?

737 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:34:46pm

MiG, anyone?

738 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:35:03pm

I and 1- both singular, and both phallic. Now I feel the self-oppression of my own singularity. *sob*

739 swamprat  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:35:19pm

Logging back out. Posting is a little better.


chow

/deliberate

740 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:36:48pm

Triumvirate - March To The Eternal City

Spartacus has come to kill!

741 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:37:34pm

re: #716 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh brother.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

/jedi talking points?

Oh, lord. "The powers to be"! ΑΝΑΛΦΑBETOΣ!

And I haven't heard too many AA people wrap themselves in the flag like this tw*t.

"Mighty and powerful miracles" - made to order for meee!

Why do they always pronounce it c*ntreee?

742 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:37:44pm

re: #738 Sharmuta

I and 1- both singular, and both phallic. Now I feel the self-oppression of my own singularity. *sob*

Don't worry, you can always represent "I" as ASCII 73, and "1" as 000000012, to emasculate both entities.

743 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:38:36pm

re: #638 iceweasel

Ooh, lucky you. And Maine too-- So lucky!

I have to take off now, but it's been fun as ever. Take care all!

Vale, Cato, Goodnight swamprat, DF, everyone else and John-Boy.

cheers, idub

uale, Weasellein, I lift my Red Stripe to you!

744 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:39:10pm

It's not just silly, but absolutely brain dead.

We have so many more boob threads than we have penis threads here.

How could one possible label LGF as phallocentric?

Ah, yes. Troll is trolling. Carry on.

745 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:39:26pm

re: #716 Slumbering Behemoth

Is Beck auditioning for The Music Man?

746 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:39:29pm

re: #741 Cato the Elder

Oh, lord. "The powers to be"! ΑΝΑΛΦΑBE TOΣ!

And I haven't heard too many AA people wrap themselves in the flag like this tw*t.

"Mighty and powerful miracles" - made to order for meee!

Why do they always pronounce it c*ntreee?

If he was miserable when he was lying to himself and others, he must be pretty miserable right now.

747 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:39:40pm

re: #737 Desert Dog

MiG, anyone?

That's one of those things that we aren't supposed to be worried about anymore. The wonderful peace-loving and politically stable Russian Federation would never sell them to any backwards dictatorships that don't like us. Cancel the F-22!

//

748 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:40:39pm

re: #716 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh brother.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

/jedi talking points?

Maybe beck doesn't realize he's still doing the lying part...?

749 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:40:44pm

re: #744 Slumbering Behemoth

We have so many more boob threads than we have penis threads here.

Remember Freetoken's First Law of the Internet:

Any thread can be turned into a boob thread.

750 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:40:57pm

re: #747 ArchangelMichael

That's one of those things that we aren't supposed to be worried about anymore. The wonderful peace-loving and politically stable Russian Federation would never sell them to any backwards dictatorships that don't like us. Cancel the F-22!

//

That's a scary looking jet

751 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:41:06pm

re: #744 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not just silly, but absolutely brain dead.

We have so many more boob threads than we have penis threads here.

How could one possible label LGF as phallocentric?

Ah, yes. Troll is trolling. Carry on.

I don't think it's a troll- I think it's satire.

752 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:42:41pm

re: #731 Slumbering Behemoth

In this case, it does. Watch until the end. Beck tries pulling an Obi-Wan.

I did watch and now I see your point. Proper answer answer to Beckwould have to come from Mace Windu (played by Samuel L. Jackson):

[Windu points blaster at Beck] "Say Tea Party again. I dare you to say Tea Party again".

753 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:42:50pm

Repost from the other Creationists...

IN the spirit of this original thread: subcontext how to talk to a science denier.

Stop. Just stop.

Acknowledge that you understand why your experiment does not reflect the real system. Please acknowledge the explanation that has been given. It takes time to explain things slowly.

Could you do me the kindness of even slightly looking at the links of paper after paper that have been presented to you?

I have neither the time or the inclination to go through yet another long list of everything you have misunderstood, confabulated and just pulled out of your bottom in your last foolish tirade. You still won't understand the basic science involved from your first tirade. And dear Lord, it seems that there has been some small progress on that front, but this is after dozens of goings back and forth. I'm tired of it.

Life is too short to debate with the willfully blind. You are too pompous and full of nonsense to bother with anymore.

Here is the bottom line:

You would fail freshman science. You have no more clue about how science works than a toenail. I have C- students who have left bowel movements in the toilet that know more science than you. Those feces however, have the modesty to not claim scientific expertise.

When science is patiently explained to you, you get aggressive and insulting after refusing to process the most basic things.

Bottom line. It would be more productive to attempt to explain algebra to a cat than to continue this.

754 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:43:13pm

re: #746 ~Fianna

If he was miserable when he was lying to himself and others, he must be pretty miserable right now.

Unfortunately, the only requirement for being in AA is a sincere desire to quit drinking.

My friend Moses selig literally used that as an excuse to smoke himself to death. Esophageal cancer, aet. suis XLVII, gone in six months.

Beck obviously believes he has no need to refrain from stinking.

755 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:43:36pm

re: #751 Sharmuta

I don't think it's a troll- I think it's satire.

Agreed, and nobody took my Reagan bait. [manly pout]

756 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:43:54pm

re: #716 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh brother.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

/jedi talking points?

Yeah, nothing wrong there huh? Sheesh. He was putting himself in the position of being part of a "miracle." His voice is trembling at the same time.

OK, free speech. (cough) ;)

757 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:43:59pm

re: #744 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not just silly, but absolutely brain dead.

We have so many more boob threads than we have penis threads here.

How could one possible label LGF as phallocentric?

Ah, yes. Troll is trolling. Carry on.

Boob thread?

758 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:45:14pm

I love "I am smarter..."

Anyone who doesn't get it needs a satire overhaul.

759 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:45:49pm

re: #751 Sharmuta

How so? Maybe I've got that disgusting Charlye bug in my brain.

760 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:46:10pm

re: #707 I am smarter than you

I see that LGF has not gotten any less phallocentric since I was last here.

Mine's bigger...

761 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:47:14pm

re: #759 Slumbering Behemoth

Search her comment history- some pretty funny stuff there.

762 BignJames  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:47:54pm

re: #699 Sharmuta

I just captured and released back into the wild a moth that's been flying around my living room for two days. How much karma is that worth?


How many sweaters you got?

763 I am smarter than you  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:48:07pm

re: #718 Sharmuta

You are right. Almost unavoidable.

People promote the phallus without giving it thought.

A couple yeas back I was asked to consult for some people who wanted to start a children's show named "Yo Gabba Gabba"

They have these happy monster characters that appeal to young children but they were having a problem with one eyed character named "One Eyed Ricardo" who looked like a big, olive skinned dick. Ricardo was developed to be the leader of the monsters and tell them what to do and how to behave.

Well I could not be contained.

I pointed out that "Ricardo" is the Latin Male version of "Richard" which gets shortened to "Dick." I also pointed out that he was dominating the group and silencing the female monsters through his dominating presence, and that these sex roles were going to be implanted in the minds of young girls - girls who would grow up craving to please the phallus.

Well that got them thinking! They told me to transform "Ricardo". Rather than throwout his phallic tendencies I chose sexual honesty - I chose to portray the phallus honestly to better prepare these young girls. So I did a few things to portray the true phallus -

1) I made him stupid
2) I changed him to a red hot, almost throbbing color
3) I gave him all sorts of warts se he looked like an STD "after" picture
4) Just in case any girls found the bumps subconsciously appealing, I gave him sharp teeth and an overbite.

Here is his picture

They loved the new character and asked me to name him. I was doing my research on the phallic dominance of the number "1" and wanted to keep an ethnic homage to "Ricardo" so I took the number "uno" and put an "M" (for male) in front of it - that is the story of "Muno"

764 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:48:27pm

re: #754 Cato the Elder

Unfortunately, the only requirement for being in AA is a sincere desire to quit drinking.

My friend Moses selig literally used that as an excuse to smoke himself to death. Esophageal cancer, aet. suis XLVII, gone in six months.

Beck obviously believes he has no need to refrain from stinking.

If he weren't so toxic to the nation, I'd feel sorry for him. Unfortunately he's a sorry SOB with a really big platform.

765 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:49:15pm

I mean really- Feminist Mathematics? A dissertation on "The Number 1 - phallocentric implement of oppression"?

Satire is the only possible explanation. I think it's hilarious.

766 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:49:37pm

I'm going to sign off for the night. Sleep well, all.

767 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:49:52pm

re: #763 I am smarter than you

LOL!

768 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:49:57pm
769 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:50:14pm

re: #766 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to sign off for the night. Sleep well, all.

See you later Dark Falcon.

770 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:50:26pm

re: #765 Sharmuta

I mean really- Feminist Mathematics? A dissertation on "The Number 1 - phallocentric implement of oppression"?

Satire is the only possible explanation. I think it's hilarious.

You haven't met many feminist scholars, have you?

771 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:51:22pm

re: #765 Sharmuta


Raised in Low Brow Lake, Wis. Undergrad in Madison. Working on my PhD in Feminist Mathematics at UC Irvine. Dissertation : "The Number 1 - phallocentric implement of oppression"

Pfft! Oy, I must remember to click nics first.

772 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:51:26pm

re: #770 ~Fianna

I'm sure they exist- but one at LGF would have to be satire.

773 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:51:31pm

re: #677 The Shadow Do

Ouch! My sales are down 40% this month in a territory I have been working for many years. I refuse to think I am chaff being one year removed from sales award glory and the big, big bonus.

But I am counting on Obama to take care of me from here on out. I hear the government has all kinds of money for folks like me. Old, white, formerly affluent.
Or maybe not.

Hope! Change!

Aside: I heard Rush once say that sales was the worst of all possible careers - at the first of the month, every month, you start at zero!

Yep, what have you done for me lately? Last month, was last month!

HA!

Seriously, time to crack out some new motivational tapes or whatever you do to gain your edge. Couldn't hurt! Maybe a golf game or two as well!

774 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:52:23pm

re: #770 ~Fianna

You haven't met many feminist scholars, have you?

"I think that Bisexual Asian Studies should have its own building. The question is who goes? The math department or the hockey team? I think Hockey, call me about it."

775 BignJames  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:52:55pm

re: #763 I am smarter than you


That's cruel.

776 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:53:29pm

re: #764 ~Fianna

If he weren't so toxic to the nation, I'd feel sorry for him. Unfortunately he's a sorry SOB with a really big platform.

Well, you know, the problem with being convinced you're "redeemed" is - for a lot of people - the sense you can go and do no wrong henceforth.

Like, I fucked over my friends and family when I was a drunk, but now I'm sober and everything I do is blessed by Bill W. and Doctor Bob.

I'll lay money Beck never got past the Third Step. He just found a better way to be a con man.

777 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:54:06pm

re: #774 ArchangelMichael

"I think that Bisexual Asian Studies should have its own building. The question is who goes? The math department or the hockey team? I think Hockey, call me about it."

Real Genius?

778 Neutral President  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:54:25pm

re: #777 Racer X

PCU

779 Desert Dog  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:55:32pm

good night all...have fun

780 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:55:40pm

re: #776 Cato the Elder

I know much about the 12 step cult, and the people within it. You're pretty much on the mark.

781 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:56:17pm

re: #719 haakondahl

Well, there's a large number of conservatives here, and you know how we revere our former President, Ronald Reagan.

I'm a Classical Liberal. Although, I do claim RR as one of my own.

:)

782 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:56:20pm

re: #779 Desert Dog

good night all...have fun

Have a good one.

783 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:56:56pm

Yo Gabba Gabba is just plain weird. I didn't really want my kid watching it on those grounds. "There's a party in my tummy, so yummy..." what? Now, she watches The Jumparounds (Fresh Beat Band) where they play music and dance around. Much better.

784 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:57:58pm

re: #763 I am smarter than you

Funny as hell.

785 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:59:12pm

re: #783 cliffster

Oh c'mon!

They Rock!

Yo Gabba Gabba "Rain" Song

786 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:59:13pm

Phallocentric?

Is that a bad thing?

787 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:59:21pm
788 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 10:59:36pm

re: #763 I am smarter than you

People promote the phallus without giving it thought.

Hah! One thing I noticed while living in Japan... they don't even try to pretend that their society is not full of phallic-centric elements.

789 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:00:23pm

re: #765 Sharmuta

I mean really- Feminist Mathematics? A dissertation on "The Number 1 - phallocentric implement of oppression"?

Satire is the only possible explanation. I think it's hilarious.

When I was an undergraduate, there was a womyn form the womyn's studies dept. who wanted to do a paper on Issac Newton's "rape manual" Principia.

She took issue with the fact the the notation for a velocity vector v, which clearly meant a vagina, had a little arrow over it (which was clearly a penis and a sign of male oppression).

I wish that I was making this up. I got saddled with her when my advisor took me aside and told me that I would be doing her a favor by helping her with her research. I later was acquitted for what I did to my advisor.

I tried to explain to her that the notation she was referring to was not used by Newton.

Of course I would defend him, don't all men scientists stick together!

I tried to explain that Newton considered on his death bed his greatest achievement was to die a virgin, and that many think he might have been gay and that in any case, he really didn't think of women much at all.

She became incensed. She pronounced, as if explaining to a brain damaged five year old, that gay men in particular hate women!

I pointed out that velocity has nothing to do with women's genitals.

She said that I was purposefully trying to not be helpful.

I finally asked what do you want me to say?

She went on a rant about confessing the evils that physics as run by men have put on womyn everywhere. I told her that I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition. She didn't get the joke.

After some painful time... I managed to excuse myself.

My advisor was laughing at me.

790 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:00:27pm

re: #763 I am smarter than you

these sex roles were going to be implanted in the minds of young girls - girls who would grow up craving to please the phallus.

1) You say it like it's a bad thing.

2) If you're not fricking interested, I can please it my damn self, thank you very much. I don't need you!

791 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:00:29pm

re: #772 Sharmuta

I'm sure they exist- but one at LGF would have to be satire.

I use some Feminist scholarship in my academic work, and I proudly call myself a feminist, but some time it just goes way too far.

For example, the other day I read a very earnest blog entry on whether or not 'abort' (in a non-medical context, like "abort the mission"), seminal and impregnable were sexist language.

792 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:01:31pm

re: #785 Racer X

Oh dear God- this is what passes for children's entertainment today?

793 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:02:02pm

re: #776 Cato the Elder

Well, you know, the problem with being convinced you're "redeemed" is - for a lot of people - the sense you can go and do no wrong henceforth.

Like, I fucked over my friends and family when I was a drunk, but now I'm sober and everything I do is blessed by Bill W. and Doctor Bob.

I'll lay money Beck never got past the Third Step. He just found a better way to be a con man.

I've seen a few people that 12-step stuff really worked for.. but on the whole you're right.

794 freetoken  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:03:11pm

Only in Japan:

795 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:03:21pm

re: #783 cliffster

Yo Gabba Gabba is just plain weird. I didn't really want my kid watching it on those grounds. "There's a party in my tummy, so yummy..." what? Now, she watches The Jumparounds (Fresh Beat Band) where they play music and dance around. Much better.

Have you ever seen Boohbah? That show is weird.

796 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:04:57pm

re: #789 LudwigVanQuixote


I pointed out that velocity has nothing to do with women's genitals.

Nah, men got that one.

///

797 Cato the Elder  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:05:31pm

...where the winds hit heavy on the borderline...

Just sayin'.

798 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:06:06pm

Long story short: the punchline is "My Phallo-Americans."

Sheesh.

799 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:06:41pm

re: #791 ~Fianna

I consider myself a feminist, and I don't appreciate misandry. That goes too far, imo, and has nothing to do with equality. Women who want to reverse the gender roles and dominate men are not about equality, but rather revenge. That's not what my feminist principles are, and I think the women who are misandrists have missed the point.

800 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:07:21pm

re: #789 LudwigVanQuixote

When I was an undergraduate, there was a womyn form the womyn's studies dept. who wanted to do a paper on Issac Newton's "rape manual" Principia.

She took issue with the fact the the notation for a velocity vector v, which clearly meant a vagina, had a little arrow over it (which was clearly a penis and a sign of male oppression).

I wish that I was making this up. I got saddled with her when my advisor took me aside and told me that I would be doing her a favor by helping her with her research. I later was acquitted for what I did to my advisor.

I tried to explain to her that the notation she was referring to was not used by Newton.

Of course I would defend him, don't all men scientists stick together!

I tried to explain that Newton considered on his death bed his greatest achievement was to die a virgin, and that many think he might have been gay and that in any case, he really didn't think of women much at all.

She became incensed. She pronounced, as if explaining to a brain damaged five year old, that gay men in particular hate women!

I pointed out that velocity has nothing to do with women's genitals.

She said that I was purposefully trying to not be helpful.

I finally asked what do you want me to say?

She went on a rant about confessing the evils that physics as run by men have put on womyn everywhere. I told her that I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition. She didn't get the joke.

After some painful time... I managed to excuse myself.

My advisor was laughing at me.

Didja now?

801 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:07:49pm

weet dreams all!

802 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:08:04pm

re: #792 Sharmuta

What do you mean children's entertainment? I've got that album! You're so cruel!

/is it much worse than this?

803 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:08:04pm

re: #799 Sharmuta

I consider myself a feminist, and I don't appreciate misandry. That goes too far, imo, and has nothing to do with equality. Women who want to reverse the gender roles and dominate men are not about equality, but rather revenge. That's not what my feminist principles are, and I think the women who are misandrists have missed the point.

They miss the shaft as well.

804 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:09:04pm

re: #794 freetoken

Only in Japan:


Little Shop of Horrors -- the Japanese version!

//

805 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:09:16pm

re: #794 freetoken

Strange Flavor Monster

806 cliffster  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:09:34pm

re: #795 ~Fianna

Have you ever seen Boohbah? That show is weird.

Never seen it, but just Google'd and YouTube'd it a little. Wow, looks like some acid tripping yo-yo making a kid's show. Keep it far, far away from my kids!

On that note, night all.

807 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:10:14pm

re: #799 Sharmuta

I consider myself a feminist, and I don't appreciate misandry. That goes too far, imo, and has nothing to do with equality. Women who want to reverse the gender roles and dominate men are not about equality, but rather revenge. That's not what my feminist principles are, and I think the women who are misandrists have missed the point.

Hear, hear!

Don't even get me started on anti-sex feminism, either. Rape is a really serious thing - it doesn't live behind the bushes in every word and thought, and it certainly does not exist in positive and consensual expressions of sexuality just because a penis is involved.

Every movement starts out with good aims and gets hijacked by the nutcases in the end, because they make better copy. It's just sad.

808 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:10:33pm

re: #803 haakondahl

They miss the shaft as well.

Don't we all?

809 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:11:07pm

re: #803 haakondahl

They miss the shaft as well.

I probably should not have updinged that... but I'm a pervert and it made me laugh, so I did.

810 Racer X  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:11:33pm

The Beast vs Landlord and Landlady

Kung Fu Hustle.

Best.
Movie.
Ever.

811 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:11:58pm

re: #806 cliffster

Never seen it, but just Google'd and YouTube'd it a little. Wow, looks like some acid tripping yo-yo making a kid's show. Keep it far, far away from my kids!

On that note, night all.

I was flipping through TV one morning and got practically hypnotized by it. It was kinda scary, actually. No way in hell would I let an impressionable kid watch that.

812 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:13:58pm

re: #708 Sharmuta

But I released a spider last month!

The skeeter eaters are out and about around here.

813 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:15:11pm

re: #791 ~Fianna

I use some Feminist scholarship in my academic work, and I proudly call myself a feminist, but some time it just goes way too far.

For example, the other day I read a very earnest blog entry on whether or not 'abort' (in a non-medical context, like "abort the mission"), seminal and impregnable were sexist language.

Ohh I hear that.

I am honestly very pro-educated women. I come from a culture and a family where my sister were pushed to get advanced degrees as well, and no-one considers a Jewish lady to be a pushover.

However, some of the things I see on campus astonish me. It is a sort of grievance theater that I just can't comprehend. There are still very real issues in this culture to address. I fail to see how the foolishness on campus accomplishes anything.

One of my best friends was a campus Rabbi. I was over at his home for Shabbos dinner when one of the more activist women showed up as well. She had been involved in bringing the Vagina Monologues to campus. She was wearing a huge pin on her chest that said vagina friendly.

My friend and his wife had no idea what to do. She was also rather pointedly waggling so that people would see the pin, and clearly enjoying the embarrassment she was causing.

I made a show of looking at her pin... "What does that say, I can't make it out.. I said."

She proudly proclaimed in a loud voice, over the Shabbos table conversation, "IT says VAGINA FRIENDLY!!!"

I said: "REALLY!!! SO AM I!!!"

She turned purple and took the pin off.

814 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:15:41pm

re: #794 freetoken

It's like they have some sort of direct conduit into my worst, Geiger influenced nightmares. I should start sleeping with a tin-foil cap.
/

815 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:19:07pm

re: #717 ~Fianna

I trap and release anything that I can catch.

The little lizards that crawl in are resistant to being relocated to safety, but I try.

A few years ago I had a classroom where, if the windows were left open, pigeons would get in. Getting them out was a lot of fun. Once I left a window open over the weekend. THey laid eggs.

816 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:20:33pm
817 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:21:35pm

re: #816 Gus 802

Sisters of Mercy - Vision Thing

[Video]

Language. ;)

NOW we are talking...

Different song, but do "dance the ghost with me..."

818 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:23:44pm

re: #817 LudwigVanQuixote

NOW we are talking...

Different song, but do "dance the ghost with me..."

Lucretia?

819 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:24:08pm

re: #807 ~Fianna

Hear, hear!

Don't even get me started on anti-sex feminism, either. Rape is a really serious thing - it doesn't live behind the bushes in every word and thought, and it certainly does not exist in positive and consensual expressions of sexuality just because a penis is involved.

Every movement starts out with good aims and gets hijacked by the nutcases in the end, because they make better copy. It's just sad.

So perfectly well said. It would be impossible to say this in a university setting, but I have often wondered, what is the root of such fear of sexuality?

820 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:25:19pm

re: #818 Gus 802

Lucretia?

Another fav Sisters track of mine, yes... And while we are at it This Corrosion, Temple of Love and MORE...

821 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:25:41pm

re: #810 Racer X

Love that movie. The Landlady is the best.

822 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:25:58pm

re: #813 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I hear that.

I am honestly very pro-educated women. I come from a culture and a family where my sister were pushed to get advanced degrees as well, and no-one considers a Jewish lady to be a pushover.

However, some of the things I see on campus astonish me. It is a sort of grievance theater that I just can't comprehend. There are still very real issues in this culture to address. I fail to see how the foolishness on campus accomplishes anything.

One of my best friends was a campus Rabbi. I was over at his home for Shabbos dinner when one of the more activist women showed up as well. She had been involved in bringing the Vagina Monologues to campus. She was wearing a huge pin on her chest that said vagina friendly.

My friend and his wife had no idea what to do. She was also rather pointedly waggling so that people would see the pin, and clearly enjoying the embarrassment she was causing.

I made a show of looking at her pin... "What does that say, I can't make it out.. I said."

She proudly proclaimed in a loud voice, over the Shabbos table conversation, "IT says VAGINA FRIENDLY!!!"

I said: "REALLY!!! SO AM I!!!"

She turned purple and took the pin off.

That was a good way to handle it.

I suppose I can't complain that much - I remember being young and just wanting to be shocking, too. The older I get the more I realize that it distracts from the point.

And really, I'm a woman who works in IT - and the hard end, too. Although I do project management and UI design and a lot of the other more "female" ends of tech, I'm the CTO and network admin for our company. We're very, very small, so network admin means I built the boxes from parts and hooked them all together on my little own. I really do know what I'm doing, but the minute there's a guy who "thinks" he knows IT, stupid ass garbage comes flowing out of their mouth.

The latest example was the client who reminded me that I should send his log-in and password in separate emails because his data is very, very sensitive.

I really wanted to throttle him.

I'm much less worried about whether or not saying that my network is impregnible is sexist language than I am about not going to jail for kicking a real, live sexist in the head with my really cute shoes.

823 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:27:00pm

re: #817 LudwigVanQuixote

NOW we are talking...

Different song, but do "dance the ghost with me..."

One of us, one of us!

The question of the night, do I hang out here for a bit longer and then go to bed or drag myself out to the local goth night and socialize in meatspace?

824 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:27:38pm

re: #815 SanFranciscoZionist

A few years ago I had a classroom where, if the windows were left open, pigeons would get in. Getting them out was a lot of fun. Once I left a window open over the weekend. THey laid eggs.

Science experiment for the kids or faculty breakfast?

825 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:29:17pm

re: #820 LudwigVanQuixote

Another fav Sisters track of mine, yes... And while we are at it This Corrosion, Temple of Love and MORE...

They're an outstanding band -- one of the best of the genre.

826 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:29:17pm

re: #818 Gus 802

Lucretia?

Yup.

Makes me want to do the "Temple of Love" dance.

827 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:30:09pm

re: #819 LudwigVanQuixote

So perfectly well said. It would be impossible to say this in a university setting, but I have often wondered, what is the root of such fear of sexuality?

Medieval morality, mostly.

The Eve myth was not a good start for modern society.

828 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:31:05pm

re: #820 LudwigVanQuixote

Another fav Sisters track of mine, yes... And while we are at it This Corrosion, Temple of Love and MORE...

I'm listening to the Comfortably Numb/Some Kind of Stranger you tube now.

829 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:31:20pm

re: #818 Gus 802

Lucretia?

My Reflection?

830 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:31:50pm

re: #822 ~Fianna

That was a good way to handle it.

I suppose I can't complain that much - I remember being young and just wanting to be shocking, too. The older I get the more I realize that it distracts from the point.

And really, I'm a woman who works in IT - and the hard end, too. Although I do project management and UI design and a lot of the other more "female" ends of tech, I'm the CTO and network admin for our company. We're very, very small, so network admin means I built the boxes from parts and hooked them all together on my little own. I really do know what I'm doing, but the minute there's a guy who "thinks" he knows IT, stupid ass garbage comes flowing out of their mouth.

The latest example was the client who reminded me that I should send his log-in and password in separate emails because his data is very, very sensitive.

I really wanted to throttle him.

I'm much less worried about whether or not saying that my network is impregnible is sexist language than I am about not going to jail for kicking a real, live sexist in the head with my really cute shoes.

I hear that too. One of the more awful things I have observed in this culture stems from fragile male egos. I see this all the time in student interactions.

If there is an attractive woman, the man automatically feels like he doesn't stand a chance. If she is brilliant and capable, then he feels outclassed on all fronts. It seems that only thing the poor boy can do is turn into a jerk.

It is a terrible pity, and as I have gotten older and seen the effect of this day in and day out on many of my female students, I can only feel for them.

831 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:31:57pm

re: #789 LudwigVanQuixote

When I was an undergraduate, there was a womyn form the womyn's studies dept. who wanted to do a paper on Issac Newton's "rape manual" Principia.

She took issue with the fact the the notation for a velocity vector v, which clearly meant a vagina, had a little arrow over it (which was clearly a penis and a sign of male oppression).

I wish that I was making this up. I got saddled with her when my advisor took me aside and told me that I would be doing her a favor by helping her with her research. I later was acquitted for what I did to my advisor.

I tried to explain to her that the notation she was referring to was not used by Newton.

Of course I would defend him, don't all men scientists stick together!

I tried to explain that Newton considered on his death bed his greatest achievement was to die a virgin, and that many think he might have been gay and that in any case, he really didn't think of women much at all.

She became incensed. She pronounced, as if explaining to a brain damaged five year old, that gay men in particular hate women!

I pointed out that velocity has nothing to do with women's genitals.

She said that I was purposefully trying to not be helpful.

I finally asked what do you want me to say?

She went on a rant about confessing the evils that physics as run by men have put on womyn everywhere. I told her that I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition. She didn't get the joke.

After some painful time... I managed to excuse myself.

My advisor was laughing at me.

I don't have anything quite that good, but I did inadvertently become an advisor on an undergraduate paper for a women in religion class (actually a topic I'm interested in), where the young lady involved had decided to write a paper about why women did not traditionally seem to have been kabbalistic scholars.

Her hypothesis, when she contacted me, was that the practice of kabbalah was apparently dangerous, and that women, as childbearers and passers-on of Jewish lineage, could not be risked by medieval Jewish communities.

I tried, I really did. I was not snotty at all. I even gave some examples of female kabbalists, in addition to explaining the boring reasons why there were so few of them.

Never heard back from her.

832 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:32:19pm

re: #829 haakondahl

My Reflection?

Yes, that would be the one.

833 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:32:49pm

re: #828 ~Fianna

I'm listening to the Comfortably Numb/Some Kind of Stranger you tube now.

[Video]

Ahhh it is very hard to beat good Floyd to chill in the evening.

834 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:33:16pm

re: #829 haakondahl

My Reflection?

Then there's Andrew reading an AK-47 manual to a strong backbeat:

This is a very weird song when you haven't gotten a lot of sleep.

835 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:36:00pm

re: #830 LudwigVanQuixote

I hear that too. One of the more awful things I have observed in this culture stems from fragile male egos. I see this all the time in student interactions.

If there is an attractive woman, the man automatically feels like he doesn't stand a chance. If she is brilliant and capable, then he feels outclassed on all fronts. It seems that only thing the poor boy can do is turn into a jerk.

It is a terrible pity, and as I have gotten older and seen the effect of this day in and day out on many of my female students, I can only feel for them.

I work with my husband, and its something that frustrates both of us. Occasionally we'll have the issue where I'll have been arguing something for a while and everyone wants sources, whitepapers, justifications and whatever - until he walks in to the meeting, says the exact same thing and it's suddenly BRILLIANT!

Or the flip side, someone will say something really stupid to me, and he'll want to jump in and be like uh WTF? But can't because a. I fight my own battles and it would just piss me off and b. that's just playing in to the whole girls need a strong protector poppycock.

836 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:36:24pm

re: #831 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't have anything quite that good, but I did inadvertently become an advisor on an undergraduate paper for a women in religion class (actually a topic I'm interested in), where the young lady involved had decided to write a paper about why women did not traditionally seem to have been kabbalistic scholars.

Her hypothesis, when she contacted me, was that the practice of kabbalah was apparently dangerous, and that women, as childbearers and passers-on of Jewish lineage, could not be risked by medieval Jewish communities.

I tried, I really did. I was not snotty at all. I even gave some examples of female kabbalists, in addition to explaining the boring reasons why there were so few of them.

Never heard back from her.

How anyone who has ever read Aishet Chayel could think that Jewish women are supposed to be "lesser" is beyond me.

837 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:37:31pm
838 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:38:25pm

re: #819 LudwigVanQuixote

So perfectly well said. It would be impossible to say this in a university setting, but I have often wondered, what is the root of such fear of sexuality?

Once you unpack the entire horrible history of the bad deal women have traditionally gotten on our planet, you do one of two things. You either say "Well, things are getting better, and that one has a cute butt," or you dismiss entirely the possibility of having a relationship with a man, and live in a state of pretentious paranoia. 99.99% of women choose option 1. Then there's Andrea Dworkin.

839 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:38:43pm

re: #835 ~Fianna

I work with my husband, and its something that frustrates both of us. Occasionally we'll have the issue where I'll have been arguing something for a while and everyone wants sources, whitepapers, justifications and whatever - until he walks in to the meeting, says the exact same thing and it's suddenly BRILLIANT!


I've seen this in action too. I've seen it more in the corporate world than the academic science world. I hate it. Whenever I see it, I immediately point out "didn't she say that a moment ago?"

840 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:38:43pm

re: #837 Gus 802

Peter Murphy - All Night Long


[Video]

Are you/were you involved in the scene at all or just a fan of the music?

841 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:39:19pm

Need some help. Amazing hole on the interwebs needs patched. Lyrics to follow, please help ID the song. And no, you can't find it online, except in a request from 2003 where some other guy wants to know the same thing. Which is where I'll get the lyrics.
I had this on a mix tape a friend made years ago, and now I can no longer find the tape or the jacket, which would neatly solve all problems.

It was a male singer. Ummm... music was along the lines of darker
music... an example would be The Cure, or Bauhaus maybe? It was about
15 years ago that I heard it. It was on a tape someone I knew a long
time ago made it. I have the full lyrics here... i'll list them now

How do you feel when the talks break down
How do you feel when the lines are broken
What do you say when love can't be found
what do you do when the truths not said
What appeals to me, can't appeal to everyone
What is real for me, can't be real for everyone

How do you feel when the talks break down
What do yoyu do when the door won't open
What do you say when love can't be found
How can you care when your heart grows cold
What it feels to me, it's not the same for everyone
What is real to me, can't be real to everyone

Still unforgiving our eyes look away
Holding us back
Holding us back

What do you do when the talks break down
You against me, it makes no sense
Stronger and hard we hold our ground
The voices, our trust, now it's self-defense
What it means to me, the one I can't be sure at all
I can see no difference
Between you and me at all

Life on the edge is s a way of life here
Life on the edge, were living it.

How do you feel when the talks break down,
How do you feel when the lines are broken
What do you say when love can't be found
What do you do when the truths not said
What appeals to me, can't appeal to everyone
What is real for me, can't be real for everyone.

Still unforgiving our eyes look away
Holding us back
Holding us back

How do you feel when the talks break down
What do you do when the door won't open
What do you say when love can't be found
How do you feel when the truths not said

842 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:39:49pm

re: #838 SanFranciscoZionist

Once you unpack the entire horrible history of the bad deal women have traditionally gotten on our planet, you do one of two things. You either say "Well, things are getting better, and that one has a cute butt," or you dismiss entirely the possibility of having a relationship with a man, and live in a state of pretentious paranoia. 99.99% of women choose option 1. Then there's Andrea Dworkin.

I make more than my fair share of jokes about moving to Lesbian Feminist Island.

I'd last about 26 hours and then need to leave.

843 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:40:05pm

re: #824 ~Fianna

Science experiment for the kids or faculty breakfast?

Neither, I left them by the statue of Mary in the garden. There was some irrational guilt involved.

844 Gus  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:40:41pm

re: #840 ~Fianna

Are you/were you involved in the scene at all or just a fan of the music?

More of a fan. Always held a vicarious interest in this particular scene. It was a big part of my 30s.

845 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:41:11pm

re: #833 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahhh it is very hard to beat good Floyd to chill in the evening.

And the utterly unlistenable Floyd covers will certainly chill that buzz.
That was AWFUL!
Here's some really good Sisters you may not know.

846 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:42:53pm

re: #838 SanFranciscoZionist

Once you unpack the entire horrible history of the bad deal women have traditionally gotten on our planet, you do one of two things. You either say "Well, things are getting better, and that one has a cute butt," or you dismiss entirely the possibility of having a relationship with a man, and live in a state of pretentious paranoia. 99.99% of women choose option 1. Then there's Andrea Dworkin.

I hear that I really do. I am not insensitive to the BS out there and I certainly understand the wretched history involved.

However, it is one thing to note this and take option one as you said.

For option two though, the fear of sexuality seems entirely too atavistic to just be that. Again I could be wrong, I just don't get how that could overcome basic human wiring without something else going on - and no, I know women who take option two who are not lesbian, or have a history of abuse. I just don't get it.

847 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:44:53pm

re: #845 haakondahl

And the utterly unlistenable Floyd covers will certainly chill that buzz.
That was AWFUL!
Here's some really good Sisters you may not know.

You have great taste in music! I love First Last and Always.

848 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:46:00pm

re: #839 LudwigVanQuixote

I've seen this in action too. I've seen it more in the corporate world than the academic science world. I hate it. Whenever I see it, I immediately point out "didn't she say that a moment ago?"

Are you familiar with the career of Dr. Ben Barres? Outside your discipline, but very interesting take. I'm sorry to have to link this because unless you have access to the Nature database, the article's content is locked, but I'm assuming that you can access it through your uni: [Link: www.nature.com...]

For those who can't access Nature this is a link to a NYT interview with Dr. Barres where he talks about the article: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

849 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:46:51pm

re: #847 LudwigVanQuixote

You have great taste in music! I love First Last and Always.

Great Taste? Less Filling.

850 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:47:06pm

re: #839 LudwigVanQuixote

I've seen this in action too. I've seen it more in the corporate world than the academic science world. I hate it. Whenever I see it, I immediately point out "didn't she say that a moment ago?"

Hell- I've seen it here at LGF!

851 haakondahl  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:48:16pm

re: #850 Sharmuta

Hell- I've seen it here at LGF!

Yes, but it's even been seen here at LGF.

852 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:49:43pm

re: #851 haakondahl

Smartass. ;)

853 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:50:04pm

re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist

Neither, I left them by the statue of Mary in the garden. There was some irrational guilt involved.

Aah. I'd probably have tried to hatch them. Dunno what I'd have done if I succeeded, though

854 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:51:26pm

re: #844 Gus 802

More of a fan. Always held a vicarious interest in this particular scene. It was a big part of my 30s.

still a fairly big part of mine, although it's not such a healthy scene here. I still post to some of the usenet groups and go to Convergence, though.

My mom was very sad when I was in my 20s and explained to her that 10+ years no longer counts as a phase. :)

855 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:55:39pm

re: #847 LudwigVanQuixote

You have great taste in music! I love First Last and Always.

Familiar with Fields of the Nephilim?

856 Sharmuta  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:55:48pm

re: #830 LudwigVanQuixote

I hear that too. One of the more awful things I have observed in this culture stems from fragile male egos. I see this all the time in student interactions.

If there is an attractive woman, the man automatically feels like he doesn't stand a chance. If she is brilliant and capable, then he feels outclassed on all fronts. It seems that only thing the poor boy can do is turn into a jerk.

It is a terrible pity, and as I have gotten older and seen the effect of this day in and day out on many of my female students, I can only feel for them.

That's very sad...

857 ~Fianna  Thu, Aug 27, 2009 11:59:34pm

re: #856 Sharmuta

That's very sad...

The question is what are we doing wrong that our sons and brothers wind up like that? What's in our culture that makes men feel that fragile?

I'm all about making women feel empowered, but sometimes I think we've gone so far that we've done it at the expense of creating men who are either assholes or guilt-ridden wrecks. Or worse, both.

858 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 12:02:32am

re: #848 ~Fianna

Are you familiar with the career of Dr. Ben Barres? Outside your discipline, but very interesting take. I'm sorry to have to link this because unless you have access to the Nature database, the article's content is locked, but I'm assuming that you can access it through your uni: [Link: www.nature.com...]

For those who can't access Nature this is a link to a NYT interview with Dr. Barres where he talks about the article: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Yes. I am familiar with it. This is great stuff.

As to my discipline, physics is odd in that on the one hand - for a bunckh of reasons outside of physics, very few women go into the field, (though this is changing, and there are enough ladies in the pipeline now that in about 10-15 years there will be much more parity) but almost every male physicist I know would love it if there were more women physicists.

This is not for entirely unselfish reasons. Most of us would love to be able to come home and say "Honey I had such a day at work... tensor...transfomation...Chiral Symmetry..." and have her get right into it with us. We really love what we do, and many think that having a spouse who loved it too would be fabulous. Almost every female physicist I know ended up marrying a physicist. Though one I know married a mathematician.

That said, the issue starts early on. There is this awful meme in the culture that math is for boys. There is an active mode of dissuading girls from getting into it, but I think the passive mode is worse.

Math is hard. Even talented kids need to sometimes be pushed. I know that as a boy, there was no question that I was doing my calculus homework before I did anything else. My sisters, who were good in math however, were simply not pushed the same way. If they didn't want to do it, it was OK. I bring up my own home life because I have parents who are about as progressive on women's issues as you could find, and yet even they had the meme.

The only way that this will get properly fixed is to remove the passive form of the meme. When parents say young lady you will do your calculus! Then there will be a change.

859 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 12:03:37am

re: #855 ~Fianna

Familiar with Fields of the Nephilim?


[Video]

You are taking me back to college. And by the way if you were not married and I was not also taken, I might be trying to propose to you... Particularly, if you said Shriekback.

860 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 12:07:31am

re: #857 ~Fianna

The question is what are we doing wrong that our sons and brothers wind up like that? What's in our culture that makes men feel that fragile?

I'm all about making women feel empowered, but sometimes I think we've gone so far that we've done it at the expense of creating men who are either assholes or guilt-ridden wrecks. Or worse, both.

The answer is one of working hard for things that matter rather than expecting material things as a right.

The man who works for things and feels his own sense of accomplishment is much less likely to feel threatened by a capable woman and in fact will likely demand she is for a partner.

The whiny kid who had too much of everything and thinks that easy is always better and that having stuff is the key to happiness will fail when faced with a capable lady.

On the flip side, the female cognate of such a man, really only wants the parts of feminism that make her life easier. She doesn't care so much for the actually work hard part of equality. She will be threatened by a man who actually has virtues because he will expect her to have them as well.

861 ~Fianna  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 12:14:30am

re: #858 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes. I am familiar with it. This is great stuff.

As to my discipline, physics is odd in that on the one hand - for a bunckh of reasons outside of physics, very few women go into the field, (though this is changing, and there are enough ladies in the pipeline now that in about 10-15 years there will be much more parity) but almost every male physicist I know would love it if there were more women physicists.[/quote]

I've got a good friend who is also a physicist, and we've had that conversation.

I read Matt's dissertation once. I understood about 1/3 of it. Really interesting stuff, but much, much too much calculus. He's great, though, because he really likes talking physics to non-physicists - one of the smartest guys I know, but completely not a jerk about it.
[quote]
This is not for entirely unselfish reasons. Most of us would love to be able to come home and say "Honey I had such a day at work... tensor...transfomation...Chiral Symmetry..." and have her get right into it with us. We really love what we do, and many think that having a spouse who loved it too would be fabulous. Almost every female physicist I know ended up marrying a physicist. Though one I know married a mathematician.
[/quote]

My marriage is a lot like that - although the downside is that it makes work never-ending, especially now that we're the IT department for our company. We'll be in the middle of dinner and having a nice conversation and realize that that thing we were worried about is really actually solvable and if you'll come over to the whiteboard we can...

[quote]That said, the issue starts early on. There is this awful meme in the culture that math is for boys. There is an active mode of dissuading girls from getting into it, but I think the passive mode is worse.

Math is hard. Even talented kids need to sometimes be pushed. I know that as a boy, there was no question that I was doing my calculus homework before I did anything else. My sisters, who were good in math however, were simply not pushed the same way. If they didn't want to do it, it was OK. I bring up my own home life because I have parents who are about as progressive on women's issues as you could find, and yet even they had the meme.[/quote]

Yup. That's my story in a nutshell... Oooh, you'll like this: [Link: www.maa.org...]

My husband is a programmer and working on his BS in math. I'm mathphobic - which is insane because I'm a very logical thinker and love number puzzles and arcane math stuff like the Fibonacci series and complex statistics. But if you show me algebra, I lock up. I still don't know what the hell to do with a fraction unless it's an applications problem.

I don't even want to think about the fact that I have to take a math placement test. I'm about 30 credits away from a Master's degree, but being held up because I haven't quite...technically finished my BA... because I have to take a stupid math class and I don't wanna.

862 ~Fianna  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 12:15:30am

re: #859 LudwigVanQuixote

You are taking me back to college. And by the way if you were not married and I was not also taken, I might be trying to propose to you... Particularly, if you said Shriekback.

Never one of my favorites, but you can't go that wrong with a band that uses parthenogenesis in a song.

863 ~Fianna  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 12:17:44am

re: #860 LudwigVanQuixote

The answer is one of working hard for things that matter rather than expecting material things as a right.

The man who works for things and feels his own sense of accomplishment is much less likely to feel threatened by a capable woman and in fact will likely demand she is for a partner.

The whiny kid who had too much of everything and thinks that easy is always better and that having stuff is the key to happiness will fail when faced with a capable lady.

On the flip side, the female cognate of such a man, really only wants the parts of feminism that make her life easier. She doesn't care so much for the actually work hard part of equality. She will be threatened by a man who actually has virtues because he will expect her to have them as well.

I blame Victorianism for a lot of our current problems. The idea of gender roles was not quite so fixed until conspicuous consumption came along and really brought the idea of woman as object of status to the forefront in gender relations.

When I say to most women that I'd rather have been a woman in 1328 than a woman in 1888, they look at me like I'm crazy, but it's true.

864 ibmkeyboard  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 3:20:03am

Charles,
I still love that picture you had of our mother EVE riding on the neck of a Tyrannosaurus rex in the garden of EDEN.

865 JEA62  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 5:24:21am

Stop using such big words! You're confusing them!

866 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 8:04:01am

re: #753 LudwigVanQuixote

Repost from the other Creationists...

IN the spirit of this original thread: subcontext how to talk to a science denier.

Stop. Just stop.

Acknowledge that you understand why your experiment does not reflect the real system. Please acknowledge the explanation that has been given. It takes time to explain things slowly.

Could you do me the kindness of even slightly looking at the links of paper after paper that have been presented to you?

I have neither the time or the inclination to go through yet another long list of everything you have misunderstood, confabulated and just pulled out of your bottom in your last foolish tirade. You still won't understand the basic science involved from your first tirade. And dear Lord, it seems that there has been some small progress on that front, but this is after dozens of goings back and forth. I'm tired of it.

Life is too short to debate with the willfully blind. You are too pompous and full of nonsense to bother with anymore.

Here is the bottom line:

You would fail freshman science. You have no more clue about how science works than a toenail. I have C- students who have left bowel movements in the toilet that know more science than you. Those feces however, have the modesty to not claim scientific expertise.

When science is patiently explained to you, you get aggressive and insulting after refusing to process the most basic things.

Bottom line. It would be more productive to attempt to explain algebra to a cat than to continue this.

Ludwig actually originally posted this, to me, here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

and it is filled with nothing but baseless and gratuitous ad hominem, because that's how pompous hemorrhoidal anuses like Ludwig roll when they cannot refute the points that others make - for instance, the points I made here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

and here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

867 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 8:06:29am

BTW: Can you believe the nerve of Ludwig calling someone with my massively pro-evolution posting history a creationist, of all things?

What a doofus!

What a maroon!

868 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 8:14:04am

Ludwig, are you smoking so much dope that you have sustained massive memory loss, and have actually forgotten that it was I who furnished you with arguments and links with which you could compose a creation-troll hammer? And that I have received multiple hat tips from Charles for turning him on to evo links that he subsequently turned into LGF threads?

Maybe the reason that you think that it is reasonable for a 7 degree C increase in temp to cause a 50 fold increase in ice melt rate on a kilometers thick sheet is because you've forgotten all the physics you supposedly learned in school.

869 funky chicken  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 8:27:28am

re: #763 I am smarter than you

You are right. Almost unavoidable.

People promote the phallus without giving it thought.

A couple yeas back I was asked to consult for some people who wanted to start a children's show named "Yo Gabba Gabba"

They have these happy monster characters that appeal to young children but they were having a problem with one eyed character named "One Eyed Ricardo" who looked like a big, olive skinned dick. Ricardo was developed to be the leader of the monsters and tell them what to do and how to behave.

Well I could not be contained.

I pointed out that "Ricardo" is the Latin Male version of "Richard" which gets shortened to "Dick." I also pointed out that he was dominating the group and silencing the female monsters through his dominating presence, and that these sex roles were going to be implanted in the minds of young girls - girls who would grow up craving to please the phallus.

Well that got them thinking! They told me to transform "Ricardo". Rather than throwout his phallic tendencies I chose sexual honesty - I chose to portray the phallus honestly to better prepare these young girls. So I did a few things to portray the true phallus -

1) I made him stupid
2) I changed him to a red hot, almost throbbing color
3) I gave him all sorts of warts se he looked like an STD "after" picture
4) Just in case any girls found the bumps subconsciously appealing, I gave him sharp teeth and an overbite.

Here is his picture

They loved the new character and asked me to name him. I was doing my research on the phallic dominance of the number "1" and wanted to keep an ethnic homage to "Ricardo" so I took the number "uno" and put an "M" (for male) in front of it - that is the story of "Muno"

Wait...there's really a kids' show called Yo Gabba Gabba? I was creeped out by Boo-Bah, or whatever it was called. At least Teletubbies had a sorta literate sounding name.

870 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 8:40:10am

re: #866 Salamantis

re: #867 Salamantis

I left your name off because this wasn't about you per se. It was about how to talk to people who can't read or understand science like you.
And I said the "other creationists." That was a reference to those who can't look at the science and argue just like creationists - just like you.

871 lostlakehiker  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 9:26:53am

re: #819 LudwigVanQuixote

So perfectly well said. It would be impossible to say this in a university setting, but I have often wondered, what is the root of such fear of sexuality?

The will to dominance and mastery is wired deep into us. For most, this includes a determination to exercise self control.

For control freaks, it can be most vexing to not even be in control of their own thoughts and feelings. But sexuality too is wired deep into us. Normal people manage to strike a balance, with the control intervening at the stage between impulse and actions-that-would-be unwise or wrong. Marriage greatly simplifies all this, if it goes well, but it's not the only path.

The control freak gets to thinking along the lines of---if only women didn't dress `provocatively', I wouldn't be troubled by unwilled and unwanted surges of lust. If only men didn't (fill the blank), I wouldn't be troubled by (fill the blank.)

Very few find themselves so constituted that they can lead this "untroubled" life, and for those that cannot accept a working compromise with the sexual side of their nature, the whole matter of sex becomes an infuriating civil war, self vs. self, that spills over into fear and anger with displacement targets---anything that serves as a trigger for desire, and anybody who disagrees with the remedy one has in mind.

872 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 9:40:48am

re: #871 lostlakehiker

The will to dominance and mastery is wired deep into us. For most, this includes a determination to exercise self control.

For control freaks, it can be most vexing to not even be in control of their own thoughts and feelings. But sexuality too is wired deep into us. Normal people manage to strike a balance, with the control intervening at the stage between impulse and actions-that-would-be unwise or wrong. Marriage greatly simplifies all this, if it goes well, but it's not the only path.

The control freak gets to thinking along the lines of---if only women didn't dress `provocatively', I wouldn't be troubled by unwilled and unwanted surges of lust. If only men didn't (fill the blank), I wouldn't be troubled by (fill the blank.)

Very few find themselves so constituted that they can lead this "untroubled" life, and for those that cannot accept a working compromise with the sexual side of their nature, the whole matter of sex becomes an infuriating civil war, self vs. self, that spills over into fear and anger with displacement targets---anything that serves as a trigger for desire, and anybody who disagrees with the remedy one has in mind.

I think that you may have something there.

873 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 10:13:29am

re: #870 ludwigvanquixote

re: #867 Salamantis

I left your name off because this wasn't about you per se. It was about how to talk to people who can't read or understand science like you.
And I said the "other creationists." That was a reference to those who can't look at the science and argue just like creationists - just like you.

I look at the science. I post the science. And I understand the science - apparently, unlike you. After all, my position on global temperature driven sea level rise in the next century reflects the current climatological consensus, while yours resides on the loony alarmist fringe.

I was the person, remember, who posted the recent Bristol paper, which corroborated the 2007 IPCC report on the subject.

And btw; ecohuddle needs to update its estimation of the effect that solar cycles have on terrestrial temperature:

Small Fluctuations In Solar Activity, Large Influence On Climate
[Link: www.sciencedaily.com...]

excerpt:

The team first confirmed a theory that the slight increase in solar energy during the peak production of sunspots is absorbed by stratospheric ozone. The energy warms the air in the stratosphere over the tropics, where sunlight is most intense, while also stimulating the production of additional ozone there that absorbs even more solar energy. Since the stratosphere warms unevenly, with the most pronounced warming occurring at lower latitudes, stratospheric winds are altered and, through a chain of interconnected processes, end up strengthening tropical precipitation.

At the same time, the increased sunlight at solar maximum causes a slight warming of ocean surface waters across the subtropical Pacific, where Sun-blocking clouds are normally scarce. That small amount of extra heat leads to more evaporation, producing additional water vapor. In turn, the moisture is carried by trade winds to the normally rainy areas of the western tropical Pacific, fueling heavier rains and reinforcing the effects of the stratospheric mechanism.

The top-down influence of the stratosphere and the bottom-up influence of the ocean work together to intensify this loop and strengthen the trade winds. As more sunshine hits drier areas, these changes reinforce each other, leading to less clouds in the subtropics, allowing even more sunlight to reach the surface, and producing a positive feedback loop that further magnifies the climate response.

These stratospheric and ocean responses during solar maximum keep the equatorial eastern Pacific even cooler and drier than usual, producing conditions similar to a La Nina event. However, the cooling of about 1-2 degrees Fahrenheit is focused farther east than in a typical La Nina, is only about half as strong, and is associated with different wind patterns in the stratosphere.

Sal: So a recently discovered synergistically cascading effect demonstrates that solar fluctuations have been erroneously dismissed as climate change drivers. Which might explain the Little Ice Age:

Are Sunspots Different During This Solar Minimum?
[Link: www.leif.org...]

excerpt:

Why is a lack of sunspot activity interesting? During the period from 1645 to 1715, the Sun entered a period of low activity now known
as the Maunder Minimum, when through several 11- year periods the Sun displayed few if any sunspots. Models of the Sun’s irradiance
suggest that the solar energy input to the Earth decreased during that time and that this change in solar activity could explain the low temperatures recorded in Europe during the Little Ice Age [Lean et al., 1992].

Sal: Maybe this has something to do with the recent (past ten years) global ocean cooling trend.

874 hellosnackbar  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 10:14:15am

re#225gatorbait,
Watched a program entitled visions of the future hosted by Prof Michio Kaku on cellular biology.
Kaku visited a Havard molecular biologist who incubated a piece of firefly DNA with an artificially constructed ribosome.
Result:light fluorescing protein!!!
Your artificial amoeba may be just around the corner!
Where you goin' to run to then??
This lad Kaku is an awesome presenter.
His polymathematical science programs are the new benchmark for excellence.
It delights me when Dr Johnson initiates a house cleaning with these
fabulous science threads.
A slug of Meerlust Rubicon(fantastic South African red wine)in anticipation of the next.
Cheers!

875 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 10:24:36am

re: #870 ludwigvanquixote

re: #867 Salamantis

I left your name off because this wasn't about you per se. It was about how to talk to people who can't read or understand science like you.
And I said the "other creationists." That was a reference to those who can't look at the science and argue just like creationists - just like you.

Considering that you originally addressed the post to me in another thread, this pathetic excuse amounts to nothing more than bargain basement bullshit.

Your definition of 'those who can't read or understand science' seems to be 'all those who disagree with LVQ.' Even when they force you sliming, kicking and screaming - via links to scientific articles, rigorous logic, impeccable mathematics, and analogies from empirical experiment - to back away from your zanily catastrophist and climatologically silly Ice-Caps-All-Gone-And-a-Ten-Meter-Rise-in-Sea-Level-in-the-Next-Century contentions.

876 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 11:12:37am

Let me render it even clearer; your pitiful denial that you were engaging in a petty passive-aggressive jab at me possesses no credibility whatsoever.

And the Bristol study, published just late last month, closely corroborates the most recent IPCC estimate of global sea level rise in the next century:

Constraints on future sea-level rise from past sea-level change
[Link: www.nature.com...]

It is difficult to project sea-level rise in response to warming climates by the end of the century, especially because the response of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets to warming is not well understood1. However, sea-level fluctuations in response to changing climate have been reconstructed for the past 22,000 years from fossil data, a period that covers the transition from the Last Glacial Maximum to the warm Holocene interglacial period. Here we present a simple model of the integrated sea-level response to temperature change that implicitly includes contributions from the thermal expansion and the reduction of continental ice. Our model explains much of the centennial-scale variability observed over the past 22,000 years, and estimates 4–24 cm of sea-level rise during the twentieth century, in agreement with the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change1 (IPCC). In response to the minimum (1.1 °C) and maximum (6.4 °C) warming projected for AD 2100 by the IPCC models, our model predicts 7 and 82 cm of sea-level rise by the end of the twenty-first century, respectively. The range of sea-level rise is slightly larger than the estimates from the IPCC models of 18–76 cm, but is sufficiently similar to increase confidence in the projections.

Sal: in other words, the lower limits of the coming century's sea level rise range, in the two studies, from 7 to 18 cm (less than last century), while the upper limits range from 76 to 82 cm (less than a meter). The three meter scenario is more that three times their upper limit estimates, while your ten meter scenario represents, quite simply and unequivocally, a shotgun wedding between messianic sensationalist alarmism and sheer pseudoscientific stupidity.

I, otoh, have embraced the possibility that the upper limits of the two studies may be exceeded by a full 25%, leading to a single meter rise in global sea levels in the next hundred years.

Which goes to show people who between us is, and who is not, following the science.

877 Mr Chompers  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 1:11:14pm

New research shows computer code (0,1) provided instructions to computers, with their hardware, shows that the necessary pieces for one particular machine — exactly the sort of structure that’s supposed to prove intelligent design — were lying around long ago.

then

It was simply a matter of time before they (0s and 1s) came together into a more complex entity.
No programmer/creator needed.
God is dead.

878 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Aug 28, 2009 3:14:06pm

re: #876 Salamantis

re: #875 Salamantis

Sal, LIke I said. I have neither the time or the patience to debunk every silly little thing you write.

1. There is more than one paper out there and you have not even read the paper that you are referring to. It starts out by listing potential confabulating factors that it did not take into account.

2. I have never said that ten meters was likely, I said it can not be ruled out in 100-150 years. That is hardly a strong shouting that it must be that way. Yet you keep repeating that as a bogus attempt to discredit the actual science I keep bringing, as opposed to your ice cube in the other room experiment that you did with such advanced apparatus as a paper plate.

3. Your problems with reality.

Even when they force you sliming, kicking and screaming - via links to scientific articles, rigorous logic, impeccable mathematics, and analogies from empirical experiment - to back away from your zanily catastrophist and climatologically silly Ice-Caps-All-Gone-And-a-Ten-Meter-Rise-in-Sea-Leve l-in-the-Next-Century contentions.

Now this is what really takes the cake. You melted some ice cubes, in your house, in a way that did not at all reflect the real conditions. This was explained to you dozens of times. This is not rigorous experiment.

As to your impeccable mathematics... that is the most astonishing chutzpah I have ever seen. Sal, you can't even do calculus. Remember the painful time I schooled you and everyone on the boards saw that you can't even do calculus?

What Sal, is the definition of non-linear? How does non-linear relate to the real system?

Do you also remember how you didn't know the difference between heat and temperature, or how your brilliant experiment fails to take into account the difference between average and local temperature?

Do you remember that? Sal, you would fail high school science.

You are a pathetic fraud who tries to lurk until the end of a debate to try to regurgitate your BS as a last word. It is really tragic. You would be better served by not posting your crap. It will make you look less foolish.

879 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 29, 2009 9:19:52am

You haven’t read the entire paper either, unless you’ve been willing to shell out the 18 bucks it costs to do so, but I have read the part of the Bristol paper that says, and I quote:

Here we present a simple model of the integrated sea-level response to temperature change that implicitly includes contributions from the thermal expansion and the reduction of continental ice.

Sal: In other words, it has correlated temperature with sea level for the past 22000 years. And that correlation IMPLICITLY TAKES CONTRIBUTIONS from THERMAL EXPANSION and the REDUCTION of CONTINENTAL ICE into ACCOUNT. The selfsame things that you falsely claim are NOT being taken into account. Because whatever is happening to the ice caps as a result of rising temps NOW, happened to them BEFORE when temps rose. And resulted in the sea levels that the Bristol report noted.

Let me give you a little (anthropomorphizing) hint; Ice cap melt rates don’t ‘care’ about whether the ambient air has a few more ppm of CO2 or methane in it; those are only meaningful insomuch as they contribute to the radiant energy trapping that can raise global temperatures. What ‘matters’ to ice cap melt rates is what the air temperature itself actually is. And all the times in the past 22000 years that the global air temperature was 6.4 degrees C higher than it is today, the sea level was no more than 82 cm higher than it presently is.

As to the math, I will cite it for you yet again:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

In the last hundred years, the sea level has risen 8 inches.
You have contended in the past that, as a consequence of global temperatures gradually rising by 7 degrees C, it was likely/probable all three ice caps – Arctic, Antarctic, and Greenland – would completely and totally melt within the next century; causing a sea level rise of 10 meters.

A meter is roughly 39.37 inches. 10 meters would be roughly 393.7 inches.

393.7 divided by 8 = 49.2125

Thus what you are asserting is that a 7 degree C increase in global temperature would cause close to a 5000% (50 fold) increase in ice cap melt rate.

Sal: you downdinged this post, but you have yet to refute my math. Because you can’t. Because it’s correct. All you’ve got is a babboon display of ad hominem contempt. But I’m not intimidated by bullshit when it’s not backed up – and yours isn’t. Which is why it qualifies as bullshit.

And once again you are forced to resort to fucking lying. I posted definitions of nonlinearity on past threads

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

and temperature is a measure of the heat in a substance (and yes, a substance need not be homogenous, and can include all kinds of elements and molecules) – that is, how fast its molecules are moving. At the lower limit of 0 degrees Kelvin (-273 degrees Celsius or –459.4 degrees Fahrenheit), they’re not moving at all.

Local temps near the poles, btw, vary with the seasons, and are more often than not BELOW freezing. They are most certainly lower than global averages. But ice exposed to temp X will melt at rate Y, regardless of whether it’s on the surface of an ice cap or on the surface of an ice cube. BTW: unlike your fantasy catastrophic scenario, my experimentally derived ice melt rate increase coefficient as a result of a 7 degree C rise, when adjusted for the fact that one set was not gradually raised to the warmer temp but actually began there, substantially agrees with the ice cap melt rate increase that would have to obtain for both Bristol and IPCC to be the case.

to be continued

880 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 29, 2009 9:23:30am

continued

As far as the ten meter scenario not being out of the realm of possibility, neither is it out of the realm of logical possibility that the San Andreas Fault will split and send western California into the sea, the Canary Islands mountain will slide into the Atlantic and generate an Eastern Seaboard swamping tsunami, and the Yellowstone Caldera will blow and wipe out everything in between, all next Tuesday. But is it a reasonable enough possibility for us to destroy our economy and return to the Gilligan’s Island days of

No phone, no lights no motor cars,
Not a single luxury,
Like Robinson Crusoe,
As primitive as can be?

Hell no; not even in the general neighborhood of remotely approaching near. But that’s precisely the headlong rush you’re trying your damnedest to stampede people into with false and intended-to-be-scary Global Noah Flood propaganda. And I have posted TWO papers that agree with the single meter scenario; where the fuck are your papers that support your crazy contentions? No one here has seen them yet. I wonder why that could be? Couold it perhaps be because you haven’t POSTED any credible climatological papers that corroborate your unhinged claims? Because they DON’T FUCKING EXIST?

Do you hear that flushing sound? It’s your credibility flowing down the toilet. But you should know that, since you’re the one pulling the handle.


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