Yon: The Brits Are Losing Helmand
World • Views: 5,605
Michael Yon’s latest must-read report from Afghanistan paints a pretty grim picture; he says the British are losing Helmand Province.
209 comments
1 |
kansas Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:28:02pm |
Do they feel uncomfortable using the term victory also?
| 3 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:29:58pm |
At the same time, he notes that the British soldiers on the ground are doing extraordinary things in the face of insufficient support back home. He notes the way that senior soldiers watch over younger ones; how the snipers do their duty under extreme conditions; and how death and injury can come real close.
| 4 |
Ben Hur Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:30:19pm |
The British soldier is winning.
The British media is losing.
| 5 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:32:32pm |
God damn it. Putting peoples lives on the line without the equipment, numbers or support they need is just plain evil. Either give them what they need to win or admit that the politicians, not the troops, fucked up and bring them home.
I can’t believe this horseshit.
| 6 |
Ojoe Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:32:39pm |
God bless those soldiers; unheralded and ignored, they are keeping at bay the mistakes of the 1930s.
| 7 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:33:24pm |
re: #1 kansas
Do they feel uncomfortable using the term victory also?
Victory is no longer sanction by official vocab guidelines.
| 8 |
Bob Dillon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:33:31pm |
There are some reports of headway here and there from time to time - but overall the challenge is great and history is on the side of the home team.
[Link: www.google.com…]
Afghan and international troops have destroyed a massive bunker complex in eastern Afghanistan used by the Haqqani insurgent network to store arms and shelter foreign fighters, officials said Sunday.
| 10 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:34:28pm |
Damn near got his ass shot off doing this report as well.
| 11 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:38:37pm |
re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
God damn it. Putting peoples lives on the line without the equipment, numbers or support they need is just plain evil. Either give them what they need to win or admit that the politicians, not the troops, fucked up and bring them home.
I can’t believe this horseshit.
Britain and the USA could easily win this war. There would be lots of collateral damage but it would be over. Politicians just want to cut and run. They forget what these animals are capable of, and what they most assuredly will do once we run away.
Tough decisions ahead.
| 12 |
Ben Hur Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:40:20pm |
It’s nice having rules of engagement that let you play whack a mole with some guy looking at you from 900 yards away.
| 13 |
Randall Gross Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:41:10pm |
The whole thing with the helicopters is REMFs picturing another Soviet era defeat. They are remembering the number of choppers the USSR lost, and over thinking and worrying about Russian, Chinese, or Iranian supplied advanced surface to air missiles.
The troops need the transport now.
| 14 |
Earth56 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:42:20pm |
a caption under one of his photos
“Many believe that the Pashtun people are one of the lost tribes of Israel. If true, some Taliban might actually be descended from Jews, which would be one of the most severe ironies of humanity. Some branches go off and earn Nobel Prizes and unravel the secrets of the universe while advancing humanity by leaps and bounds, while another turns malignant and doesn’t know how to build a road.”
How true and thanks Michael for your endless spirited reporting which the MSM should learn from.
| 15 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:42:45pm |
re: #13 Thanos
One other thing is the Pedros - the US Army medical transport choppers, who will go anywhere anytime and perform heroic acts to save lives of soldiers, and to take captured enemies and others to medical facilities.
| 16 |
MilkOfMalfeasance Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:43:36pm |
I will say it again, aside from our Warfighters, Michael Yon is our single greatest asset in this war.
| 17 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:45:03pm |
Yon is often compared to Ernie Pyle. I understand this, but I find him more like Hemingway with a great camera.
I do hope he does not end up like Ernie, but the photos with the bullets kicking up dust around him are not particularly encouraging.
Stay low Michael.
| 18 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:45:06pm |
The feckless politicians in the west think of the war on terror in terms of exit strategies and how to leave “gracefully.”
The islamists think in terms of outlasting the westerners, whom they know have “leaders” who lack the political will and fortitude to win.
The soldiers on the ground have the will to win. But the politicians are mostly despicable cowards. Is there any doubt who will eventually prevail between the islamists and the west when you examine this objectively?
I miss George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. At least they TRIED.
| 19 |
Athos Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:46:24pm |
How many times have we’ve seen the troops on the ground with the will to win even when they don’t have all of the tools they need - and the politico’s at home lacking both the will and the intent to provide the troops with what is needed to win.
COIN requires having more will than the bad guys and the ability to get inside their decision / action loop. Without the will or the investment in the equipment needed, too many very brave people are going to die…and ultimately what for when the leaders can’t use the word ‘victory’?
| 21 |
Russkilitlover Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:47:02pm |
In other words, the enemy is not hiding, but they are in trenches, bunkers and fighting positions that extend into depth. The enemy owns the terrain.The British are protecting Kajaki Dam but otherwise it’s just a big fight and no progress is being made.
Sounds familiar. 1916 familiar.
| 22 |
Rexatosis Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:48:00pm |
The problem with the campaign in Afghanistan is that the rest of NATO (aside from the US, Brit, and Canada) was and still is not willing or prepared to take on a serious roll in this or any campaign. These countries (especially the Germans and Belgians) have little actual defense spending or preparation. Britain is just plain exhausted and the Labour Government is mired in scandal. The Canadians are not far behind in being totally exhausted as well. This was behind PM Harper’s pointed criticisms at the Obama Administration and the rest of NATO back in Feb. Unfortunately when Pres. Obama went on his “Mea Culpa” tour of Europe he was rebuffed in his requests for more help on Afghanistan (save for a small number of French Forces added to the mission, but with operational restrictions). The Afghan theater is becoming more of a theater of US operations and less of a NATO mission each day and this does not bode well for long-term success.
| 23 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:49:43pm |
The means, the ability, the resources, the troops are ready and willing the only thing lacking to achieve victory?
Political Will.
| 24 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:50:17pm |
re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist
Utter destruction of the Taliban and allied groups. Security for all Afghanis so they can live their lives without fearing they’ll be shot if they don’t grow opium or they send their daughters to school.
| 26 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:53:53pm |
I have read enough from Michael and others to believe that the incremental troop increases approved, so far, by Obama are driven politically. He doesn’t want to lose ‘his’ war, but neither does he seem inclined to win it.
While no one has had the temerity to say it, it is looking more and more that the West (USA) is prepared to settle into a war of attrition - not to win, but to follow the Korea, Vietnam standoff model with some vague hope of a semi-ceasefire - or a sufficient change in public opinion to permit a wholesale retreat.
Looks to me like it would take a Gulf I invasion force to get the job done. Crush the enemy, hold the territory, train up the locals. Not enough folks for COIN tactics in this deal. We are already fighting the last war (Iraq). IMO of course.
| 27 |
karmic_inquisitor Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:54:01pm |
This war will be a slog.
The terrain is prohibitive for many of the operations that made the occupation and clearing of Iraq achievable.
So a redo of the surge will not provide the same results in a comparatively short time.
For instance, the mountains are hard to patrol and easy to hide in. The industrial and educational infrastructure that existed in Iraq (and hosted a semblance of a secular middle class) simply does not exist in Afghanistan. You have a very long, mountainous border with Pakistan who still provides aid and comfort to the Taliban. Oh - and they have nukes and an unstable government.
Bush was always candid on how Afghanistan was going to take a very long time as was the WOT.
Obama exploited the left’s narrative that there was no WOT, only a war on civil liberties, and now his moralist supporters are tired of killing people in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
It will be a test of Obama’s integrity and leadership for him to adapt a long range strategy in Afghanistan that sees the fight through.
| 28 |
karmic_inquisitor Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:54:59pm |
re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist
What would victory look like?
The GAP opening a store in a mall in Kabul.
| 29 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:55:50pm |
re: #28 karmic_inquisitor
The GAP opening a store in a mall in Kabul.
GAP? I thought it was a McDonalds!
| 30 |
Leonidas Hoplite Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:56:28pm |
re: #29 jcm
GAP? I thought it was a McDonalds!
That’s the food court…much better than the less popular Taliban Court.
| 31 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:57:40pm |
The troops up at Kajaki Dam are surrounded by the enemy, which has dug itself into actual “FLETs.” FLET is military-speak for “Forward Line of Enemy Troops.” In other words, the enemy is not hiding, but they are in trenches, bunkers and fighting positions that extend into depth.
Gosh, now, I’m no military expert, but I can see something useful that could be done right there. With lots and lots of deep-penetrating ordnance.
| 32 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:59:27pm |
re: #30 Leonidas Hoplite
That’s the food court…much better than the less popular Taliban Court.
Food court the whipping on your sundae is optional.
Taliban court the whipping is mandatory.
| 33 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:00:19pm |
The stories of foreign invaders do not explain away the great walls built around nearly every home and every mind. The problem is not the terrain. The problem is not that Americans and others supported the Mujahadin when they fought the Soviets. The problem is not the artificial boundaries penciled in by the British all over Asia and the Middle East. The people are backwards and many want it that way. You can fly over a compound in the desert, miles from the next compound, and still it will have walls. Afghanistan is the land of a million Alamos.
[Sigh]
No good choices, are there?
| 34 |
Syrah Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:00:37pm |
re: #27 karmic_inquisitor
You can fight the water of the river with pick-ax and shovel, but it will be all for not till the pick-ax and shovel attack the earth that guides the course of the river.
| 35 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:01:07pm |
re: #31 Occasional Reader
Gosh, now, I’m no military expert, but I can see something useful that could be done right there. With lots and lots of deep-penetrating ordnance.
| 36 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:02:56pm |
re: #21 Russkilitlover
Sounds familiar. 1916 familiar.
And as I noted above, it doesn’t have to be that way. We have the capacity to utterly obliterate their trenches and bunkers, whenever we want. Why aren’t we doing it?!
| 37 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:03:47pm |
re: #36 Occasional Reader
And as I noted above, it doesn’t have to be that way. We have the capacity to utterly obliterate their trenches and bunkers, whenever we want. Why aren’t we doing it?!
We might hit a wedding reception or baby milk factory by mistake.
| 38 |
karmic_inquisitor Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:04:15pm |
re: #33 Occasional Reader
[Sigh]
No good choices, are there?
The surge worked in Iraq because people liked consumer goods and wanted something of a western lifestyle. The Taliban crap got old fast and the Taliban created allies for us among the Sunnis who had fueled the insurgency.
The demands that the Taliban make seem less severe when you already live that way.
What we need in Afghanistan is a generation or two of kids raised on rock and roll and television. Seriously.
| 39 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:04:48pm |
re: #28 karmic_inquisitor
The GAP opening a store in a mall in Kabul.
Hell, the Gap opening a sweatshop in Kabul would be progress.
| 40 |
turn Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:05:10pm |
“Many believe that the Pashtun people are one of the lost tribes of Israel. If true, some Taliban might actually be descended from Jews, which would be one of the most severe ironies of humanity. Some branches go off and earn Nobel Prizes and unravel the secrets of the universe while advancing humanity by leaps and bounds, while another turns malignant and doesn’t know how to build a road.”
I didn’t know that. How is Islam working out for ya Afghans? It’s a sad state of affairs when people actually prefer to live in seventh century conditions.
| 41 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:06:51pm |
re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
We might hit a wedding reception or baby milk factory by mistake.
Every thing we hit is a wedding reception or baby milk factory.
| 42 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:08:18pm |
| 43 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:08:27pm |
All the British forces he write about are astonishingly brave, but I have to take special note of the women. One can only imagine what would happen to one of them if she were captured by the barbarians. It takes a special brand of courage to volunteer for that sort of risk.
| 44 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:08:42pm |
re: #38 karmic_inquisitor
The surge worked in Iraq because people liked consumer goods and wanted something of a western lifestyle. The Taliban crap got old fast and the Taliban created allies for us among the Sunnis who had fueled the insurgency.
The demands that the Taliban make seem less severe when you already live that way.
What we need in Afghanistan is a generation or two of kids raised on rock and roll and television. Seriously.
Yon has made it pretty clear that most of Afghanistan is stone age, literally. Not sure what they would plug their Ipod or TV into, maybe a rock? Worked for the Flinstones I guess.
| 45 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:09:39pm |
This is coming real close to home. My daughter went on her first date with an Army interrogator this weekend and my oldest son is considering entering the service when he returns from his mission.
While I have supported and prayed for our service men and women, I am getting more attuned to the trajectory of the Afghanistan war and I am worried about our lack of commitment as a country to do this right.
War is not nice and does not seek international consensus. Do it right or don’t put our children in harms way in the first place. Utterly defeat the drug lords and foreign insurgents with overwhelming firepower then we can worry about the niceties of nation building like we did in Japan and West Germany.
| 46 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:09:49pm |
“BRITISH ARMY SURF TEAM - Taliban don’t surf”
Heh.
(T-shirt in photo)
| 47 |
Buck Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:11:46pm |
OT: I know good lizards are aware of PA Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas holocaust denial. However I think it bears repeating, just in case some are not aware that his 1983 PHD Dissertation was all about “Nazi Zionists”. Remember, everyone will be Hitler for 15 minutes, even Jews.
Excerpts from PA Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas’ Dissertation
The Other Side: The secret relations between Nazism and the leadership of the Zionist movement, 1983, translation by Simon Wiesenthal Center.
On cooperation between the Zionist leaders and Nazi Germany
“A partnership was established between Hitler’s Nazis and the leadership of the Zionist movement…[The Zionists gave] permission to every racist in the world, led by Hitler and the Nazis, to treat Jews as they wish, so long as it guarantees immigration to Palestine.”
On Jews artificially raising the number of Holocaust victims
“Having more victims meant greater rights and stronger privilege to join the negotiation table for dividing the spoils of war once it was over. However, since Zionism was not a fighting partner - suffering victims in a battle - it had no escape but to offer up human beings, under any name, to raise the number of victims, which they could then boast of at the moment of accounting.”
“It seems that the interest of the Zionist movement … is to inflate this figure so that their gains will be greater. This led them to emphasize this figure in order to gain the solidarity of international public opinion with Zionism. Many scholars have debated the figure of six million and reached stunning conclusions - fixing the number of Jewish victims at only a few hundred thousand.”
On doubts about the numbers Jews killed in Holocaust
“Following the war, word was spread that six million Jews were amongst the victims and that a war of extermination was aimed primarily at the Jews… The truth is that no one can either confirm or deny this figure.
“In other words, it is possible that the number of Jewish victims reached six million, but at the same time it is possible that the figure is much smaller - below one million”.
| 48 |
experiencedtraveller Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:13:08pm |
re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist
What would victory look like?
A democratic Afghanistan at peace with itself and its neighbors.
| 49 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:13:13pm |
re: #45 DaddyG
Just so Mr. G. But it won’t happen with the risk averse fuzzy, feey bunch calling the shots today. I hate to say it, but under the circumstances I would not encourage my kid to enlist. Just my take of course.
| 50 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:13:27pm |
re: #42 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
So you see our quandry.
It rotates back to political will.
The will to put up with the accusations of such things, and defend ourselves politically against the accusations, And when a such “targets” are struck, the courage to lay the blame where it belongs, at the feet of those who would use a baby milk factory for propaganda, and wedding reception to fire on our troops.
Countering the negative propaganda is important to achieving victory. In fact it is vital, it tells the man with dusty boots on the ground somebody has his back.
| 51 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:15:26pm |
re: #48 experiencedtraveller
A democratic Afghanistan at peace with itself and its neighbors.
Hell, I’ll take an Afghanistan with an undemocratic but non-batshit-crazy government, as peace with itself and its neighbors, at least for starters.
| 52 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:17:00pm |
re: #51 Occasional Reader
Hell, I’ll take an Afghanistan with an undemocratic but non-batshit-crazy government, as peace with itself and its neighbors, at least for starters.
Hell, I don’t even care if their not at peace, so long as they are strong enough to fight off the crazy cut throats.
| 53 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:17:06pm |
Not for the first time, if I recall my Empire history.
| 54 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:17:10pm |
Hot here in Portland today. That damn sun is out again.
/Meh
| 55 |
karmic_inquisitor Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:17:24pm |
re: #44 The Shadow Do
Yon has made it pretty clear that most of Afghanistan is stone age, literally. Not sure what they would plug their Ipod or TV into, maybe a rock? Worked for the Flinstones I guess.
Yon posted on Kajaki Dam.
[Link: www.michaelyon-online.com…]
It is one of the only sources of electricity in the province.
That is why it is so important - leaving the stone age requires electricity.
| 56 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:17:54pm |
Anyone recognize the sniper rifles in the pics?
| 57 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:18:02pm |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
Hot here in Portland today. That damn sun is out again.
/Meh
Damn those Solarians and their SUVs causing solar warming!
| 58 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:18:14pm |
So Your Cat Wants A Massage
| 59 |
Russkilitlover Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:18:23pm |
re: #50 jcm
It rotates back to political will.
Countering the negative propaganda is important to achieving victory. In fact it is vital, it tells the man with dusty boots on the ground somebody has his back.
Hell, the negative propaganda is produced form our own G-D MEDIA!
| 61 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:19:01pm |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
Hot here in Portland today. That damn sun is out again.
/Meh
104˚ in SoCal - and smokey as hell.
| 62 |
Ward Cleaver Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:19:11pm |
It’s no wonder the MoD canceled his embed; this is freakin’ embarrassing to the British.
| 63 |
Pianobuff Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:20:13pm |
So, I thought there was no more “War on Terror” per the White House.
Apparently it’s back on.
This is getting hard to keep up with.
| 64 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:21:08pm |
Okay, something I don’t understand; Yon describes this 20-30 minute ordeal of the snipers trying to hit a man 900 meters away who appears to be a Taliban spotter. The bad guy is concealed behind a wall, but in open terrain, without civilians around (unless I misunderstood). Why not just drop a few 40mm grenades, or for that matter, mortar rounds on the target, and then crack open a beer?
| 65 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:22:24pm |
re: #62 Ward Cleaver
It’s no wonder the MoD canceled his embed; this is freakin’ embarrassing to the British Government.
(FIFY… no need for the British forces to be embarassed, of course.)
| 66 |
arethusa Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:22:53pm |
Fortunately Gordon Brown is highly unlikely to win the general election next year. Thing is, David Cameron and the Tories might not be any better.
| 67 |
karmic_inquisitor Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:23:16pm |
| 68 |
Buck Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:23:37pm |
re: #64 Occasional Reader
Okay, something I don’t understand; Yon describes this 20-30 minute ordeal of the snipers trying to hit a man 900 meters away who appears to be a Taliban spotter. The bad guy is concealed behind a wall, but in open terrain, without civilians around (unless I misunderstood). Why not just drop a few 40mm grenades, or for that matter, mortar rounds on the target, and then crack open a beer?
900 meters is half a mile. Probably too far for mortar rounds.
/my guess
| 69 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:25:27pm |
re: #55 karmic_inquisitor
Yon posted on Kajaki Dam.
[Link: www.michaelyon-online.com…]It is one of the only sources of electricity in the province.
That is why it is so important - leaving the stone age requires electricity.
He referenced this inthis most recent post. Generator in place but not working. What juice is generated is interdicted and the locals are charged by the Taliban for their power use. Probably the Taliban does not want R&R and Western TV sucking up their pirated juice.
Best laid plans and all that. It will take a massive military push to put this place on track. Take about 2 centuries to gentrify Helmand.
| 70 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:27:24pm |
I just read about this tragedy.
All of the words I would want to use are vulgar.
We can not let the Tali’s win.
My thoughts and prayers to the Brits who are doing their best with very limited resources,.
| 71 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:28:49pm |
re: #56 Occasional Reader
Anyone recognize the sniper rifles in the pics?
It’s looks like a Accuracy International L96A1 .338 Lupua to me.
| 72 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:29:01pm |
re: #64 Occasional Reader
Okay, something I don’t understand; Yon describes this 20-30 minute ordeal of the snipers trying to hit a man 900 meters away who appears to be a Taliban spotter. The bad guy is concealed behind a wall, but in open terrain, without civilians around (unless I misunderstood). Why not just drop a few 40mm grenades, or for that matter, mortar rounds on the target, and then crack open a beer?
They might inadvertantly take out the the endangered Afghan spotted rock snail, which would be a violation of the World Endagered Species Act. I believe it is punishable by a fine of up to $5000 Euros per rock snail killed. I am sure there are WESA inspectors on site.
//
| 73 |
Leonidas Hoplite Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:29:03pm |
re: #66 arethusa
Fortunately Gordon Brown is highly unlikely to win the general election next year. Thing is, David Cameron and the Tories might not be any better.
Sounds familiar.
| 74 |
OldLineTexan Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:29:09pm |
| 76 |
zombie Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:30:45pm |
Two passages in this report from the incomparable Yon which bear highlighting:
“The stories of foreign invaders do not explain away the great walls built around nearly every home and every mind. The problem is not the terrain. The problem is not that Americans and others supported the Mujahadin when they fought the Soviets. The problem is not the artificial boundaries penciled in by the British all over Asia and the Middle East. The people are backwards and many want it that way. You can fly over a compound in the desert, miles from the next compound, and still it will have walls. Afghanistan is the land of a million Alamos.”
…and…
“The [British] women are medics, and they brave the combat just like the infantry soldiers. But again, they will never get the credit they deserve, and so we joked that they should just let people think they spent the entire tour at Camp Bastion. Who would believe that they were out there in the thick of it? On this day, an Afghan man showed one of these medics a rash on his arms, but the medic carried no such medicines out into the fighting. When medic Evans said she had no medicine, a young man picked up a big stone and was preparing to hit her. Rhian instantly pointed the rifle at the man who put down the rock.”
This is the core of the problem: The people themselves. They are pre-Enlightenment. Pre-Renaiisance, even. It’s hard for us to even grasp the backwardness of their worldview, much less understand it and sympathize with it.
In the San Francisco Bay Area there is a city called Fremont, which has a large Afghan expatriate community. If you go there and hang out, or just watch news stories filmed there, you’ll find that the Afghan-Americans are pro-America, educated, friendly, etc. How can this be? Because all the Afghans who fled to America were the educated ones, the forward-thinkers, the progressives, fleeing the mujahideen and the Taliban in the ’80s and ’90s.
The end result is that Afghanistan itself is now exclusively populated by the “left-behinds,” the ignorant, modernism-hating tribalists.
Missionaries in the 19th century to various far-flung parts of the globe would sometimes despair that the “natives” in their particular outpost were simply beyond redemption.
I think we’ve got one of those situations here.
| 78 |
Kenneth Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:31:55pm |
oooh… I just got the Snow Leopard upgrade package in the mail… a tingle of excitement ran up my leg as I slipped the disk into my iMac…
| 79 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:32:43pm |
re: #68 Buck
900 meters is half a mile. Probably too far for mortar rounds.
/my guess
60mm mortar with 3490 meter range
Mortars have a greater effective range than sniper rifles, not less.
| 80 |
zombie Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:32:46pm |
re: #78 Kenneth
oooh… I just got the Snow Leopard upgrade package in the mail… a tingle of excitement ran up my leg as I slipped the disk into my iMac…
Make sure everything is backed up first, before upgrading the OS!
| 81 |
LGoPs Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:33:08pm |
Bombing this place into the proverbial Stone Age would actually be an improvement I suspect.
/
| 82 |
Bear Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:34:13pm |
re: #68 Buck
As I recall our 81mm mortar with HE Light rounds would go out to a bit over 3000 yards. So 900 meters should be within range. That was the WW2 mortar. I have been told the new ones go out farther.
| 83 |
Kenneth Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:34:32pm |
| 84 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:35:10pm |
re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wasn’t it Rummy that said you got to war with the army you have, not the army you want? I’m sure that sounded good on paper, and all kinds of git ‘er done patriotic. The reality, of course, is that you’re putting people’s lives at stake because some bean counter didn’t do the math. It’s always easier to spend lives when they’re not your own, but someone else’s son, daughter, father, mother, uncle, in-law. Then they’re only numbers.
I see this as a perpetual whack-a-mole scenario, with a limitless amount of moles. Meanwhile, the casualties build, and probably many of them unnecessary. I believe this is a result of fighting a kinder-gentler war, but I’m no expert. I do know my approach would be far more brutal, probably less popular, but I’m betting more effective. In my mind, it’s about winning a war, not sustaining it. Actually winning wars may be too messy for today’s cultured palettes.
| 85 |
zombie Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:35:52pm |
re: #83 Kenneth
It is.
(typing this on my antediluvian Windows XP box)
You don’t know from antediluvian. I still have an Apple computer that runs System 6!
| 86 |
LGoPs Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:36:35pm |
re: #68 Buck
900 meters is half a mile. Probably too far for mortar rounds.
/my guess
900 meters should be a doable shot for a sniper, although I’m not sure they had any with them. Mortars would easily reach this range.
| 87 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:36:59pm |
re: #76 zombie
Right to the heart of it, both you and Yon.
| 88 |
Ward Cleaver Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:38:03pm |
re: #65 Occasional Reader
(FIFY… no need for the British forces to be embarassed, of course.)
Amen to that!
| 89 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:38:32pm |
re: #84 theheat
Wasn’t it Rummy that said you got to war with the army you have, not the army you want? I’m sure that sounded good on paper
It was also, um… realistic. No matter how good your military is at the moment you go to war, you’ll wish they had more and better of everything. And waiting to upgrade the [whatever] takes time, and lost time is a lost tactical asset, too. We wait another six months so that everyone gets MRAPs… okay, but those might be the six months that Saddam uses to get anthrax warheads on artillery shells. Etc.
| 90 |
Kenneth Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:40:08pm |
re: #84 theheat
Wasn’t it Rummy that said you got to war with the army you have, not the army you want?
That was the quite possibly the most egregious thing Rumsfeld said as Sec-Def. He said that in response to criticism about the size of the force the US sent into Iraq. The reality is that most of his Pentagon advisers wanted many, many more troops. It was Rumsfeld who pushed the war planners to slash the force down, down and down. The Us went to war with exactly the force Rumsfeld wanted. Even as the invasion started, Rumsfeld diverted troops already in transit to Iraq away.
| 91 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:41:02pm |
re: #84 theheat
Actually winning wars may be too messy for today’s cultured palettes.
Started with Truman, led to Vietnamization, culiminated in the Colin Powell unilateral cease fire.
All this kindness generates nothing but war, after war, after war.
| 92 |
LGoPs Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:41:47pm |
| 93 |
Kenneth Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:42:37pm |
re: #89 Occasional Reader
Rumsfeld’s first plan for invading Iraq, handed to Bush on Sept 16, 2001, was for 10,000 troops. The existing plan, drawn up for Clinton in 1998 called for 300,000 troops. In then end they met somewhere in the middle.
| 94 |
Russkilitlover Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:42:40pm |
I wish we had a Micheal Yon with our troops in Afghanistan right now. I’d really like to know what is going on and what we are doing. We hear of an occasional drone strike and a quick rush past the raising casualty numbers and that’s about it.
| 95 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:42:46pm |
re: #84 theheat
Wasn’t it Rummy that said you got to war with the army you have, not the army you want? I’m sure that sounded good on paper, and all kinds of git ‘er done patriotic. The reality, of course, is that you’re putting people’s lives at stake because some bean counter didn’t do the math. It’s always easier to spend lives when they’re not your own, but someone else’s son, daughter, father, mother, uncle, in-law. Then they’re only numbers.
I see this as a perpetual whack-a-mole scenario, with a limitless amount of moles. Meanwhile, the casualties build, and probably many of them unnecessary. I believe this is a result of fighting a kinder-gentler war, but I’m no expert. I do know my approach would be far more brutal, probably less popular, but I’m betting more effective. In my mind, it’s about winning a war, not sustaining it. Actually winning wars may be too messy for today’s cultured palettes.
The “Less is more” approach to warfare is bullshit. You put as much firepower on target as you can until it is destroyed and move on to the next target. Putting these little camps requiring them to be supplied by air and surrounded by enemy is a recipe for disaster. Either drop the biggest hammer you can or pull the fuck out.
“Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster. ”
William Tecumseh Sherman
| 96 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:43:04pm |
re: #90 Kenneth
That was the quite possibly the most egregious thing Rumsfeld said as Sec-Def. He said that in response to criticism about the size of the force the US sent into Iraq.
Actually, he said it in response to a question about the lack of up-armored vehicles.
| 97 |
Leonidas Hoplite Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:43:30pm |
re: #90 Kenneth
That was the quite possibly the most egregious thing Rumsfeld said as Sec-Def. He said that in response to criticism about the size of the force the US sent into Iraq. The reality is that most of his Pentagon advisers wanted many, many more troops. It was Rumsfeld who pushed the war planners to slash the force down, down and down. The Us went to war with exactly the force Rumsfeld wanted. Even as the invasion started, Rumsfeld diverted troops already in transit to Iraq away.
Wasn’t it supposed to be bigger and have a large force invade from Turkey? And Turkey backed out as a staging area with our troops and equipment in transit? And wouldn’t it have taken weeks to get everything in transit to another staging area? I recall some or all of this being a part of the problem…
| 98 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:45:26pm |
re: #96 Occasional Reader
That’s what I remember, also. Or, at least, when there were complaints about the lack of armored troops, that quote was pulled. Perhaps it had been used earlier, and re-attributed to the armor issue.
| 99 |
descolada9 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:45:28pm |
Incredible reporting from Yon as ever. It is sad that such brave and capable young men and women fight while their own government bureaucracies undermine them or distance themselves from the brave men and women. Unless something is done soon to give these soldiers the support they need, then all these little bases will eventually be swallowed whole by the Taliban and the desert. I can think of nothing more ignoble for all the lives that have been lost in this battle.
It would be nice to see pro-military movie done to commemorate the lives and actions of the brave soldiers in Afghanistan. Probably the best thing would be to go through Mr. Yon’s posts and put together a script that highlights some of the people and activities that he writes about. For that matter if he has film footage that could be worked into a documentary, I think it would have a wonderfully powerful effect in both the US, Britain and other western nations. Of course, the biggest obstacle would be the film companies themselves who have shown their willingness to lose millions of dollars disgracing the heroic activities of our soldiers but find the idea of glorifying the losses of brave men and women to be anethema.
| 100 |
Kenneth Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:46:11pm |
| 101 |
Achilles Tang Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:47:31pm |
re: #76 zombie
This is the core of the problem: The people themselves. They are pre-Enlightenment. Pre-Renaiisance, even. It’s hard for us to even grasp the backwardness of their worldview, much less understand it and sympathize with it.
If we had politicians who said the same, they might be able to figure out what to do; but that would be called racist, would it not?
You can fly over a compound in the desert, miles from the next compound, and still it will have walls. Afghanistan is the land of a million Alamos.
Ditto much of the Arab Middle East. Saudi is much the same, even in the cities.
Islam is like that.
| 102 |
Kenneth Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:48:20pm |
re: #98 theheat
I recall Rumsfeld using that line previously. He recycled it for that question.
The point being, the US had the army Rumsfeld wanted in Iraq. He was correct, they were enough to overthrough Saddam. But it was not enough to properly occupy the country, secure the borders and establish security.
| 103 |
descolada9 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:48:50pm |
I just took a look at [Link: en.wikipedia.org…] and there are already calls for deletion of the article on the page. If someone can amend the article to make it more survivable from the trolls in the Wikipedia forums, please do. I fear that I do not have the expertise to write/edit Wiki articles. At the same time, it would be a shame to see this article lost.
| 104 |
itellu3times Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:50:19pm |
re: #23 jcm
The means, the ability, the resources, the troops are ready and willing the only thing lacking to achieve victory?
Political Will.
We do not want it said we killed the enemy and enforced our will.
But I don’t really see that as “political” as such.
| 105 |
opnion Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:56:33pm |
What is the bottom line here, do we increase troop strength & go all out to win, or do we conclude that the Afghans are backward primitives & that the situation is hopeless?
Obama embraced this as the “Good” War, what now?
| 106 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:58:12pm |
Here’s some welcome realism:
Among the British combat soldiers in Afghanistan, Pedro [call sign of USAF chopper medical rescue] is the only thing more popular than mail. When friendly forces are in need, Pedro will come anywhere, anytime, during any weather, and their helicopters have gotten the bulletholes to prove it. The United States Air Force runs the only rescue service that will always be there, no matter what, no matter that there is no moon for flying, or the dust is too heavy for everyone else, or you are in a firefight. American Army helicopters in Afghanistan fly with the red cross on the side. Flying with that symbol makes it illegal for our people to carry weapons. The decision seems ridiculous; the enemy will only use the red cross for an aim point. While the Army flies armed with a red cross, Pedro flies with miniguns. And they bring some of the most highly qualified medics in the entire U.S. military–which is saying a lot. They bring miniguns, and powersaws to cut soldiers out of MRAPs or other twisted hulks, and scuba gear when troops and gear are lost to the water. If our people can manage to get there, Pedro can manage to get them out. Pedro rescues people every single day.
| 107 |
buster Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:59:09pm |
I saw pictures today of an Afghan farmer who had part of his nose and ear cut off by the Taliban, for carrying a voting card. He said he was ambushed on his way to a voting station
With an enemy this brutal, and backed by opium money, is there any way to win even with overwhelming force? I get the feeling they (the Taliban) will melt away into the hillside, for however long it takes; only to return when we reduce our forces
| 108 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:01:21pm |
re: #107 buster
I saw pictures today of an Afghan farmer who had part of his nose and ear cut off by the Taliban, for carrying a voting card. He said he was ambushed on his way to a voting station
With an enemy this brutal, and backed by opium money, is there any way to win even with overwhelming force? I get the feeling they (the Taliban) will melt away into the hillside, for however long it takes; only to return when we reduce our forces
The Taliban pays no attention to lines on a map and will fade across the border into Pakistan and other areas as needed. Until we’re willing to hunt them down where ever they hide, its a losing battle.
| 109 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:01:26pm |
re: #106 Occasional Reader
I think Yon is now flying with Pedro, confirming Charles’ information regarding his embed now USAF. Should be some outstanding posts forthcoming from Michael.
| 110 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:02:44pm |
re: #105 opnion
or do we conclude that the Afghans are backward primitives & that the situation is hopeless?
One observation: People can be backward and primitive, without being rabidly violent. To the extent we can get a good portion of the Afghan people to see themselves as protecting their way of life against an alien, Saudi-funded ideology, that will be a good thing, even if those same people are quite happy to live in the Middle Ages themselves. And, of course, to the extent we can start pulling more of them into modernity, all the better.
| 111 |
doubter4444 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:33pm |
re: #91 The Shadow Do
Started with Truman, led to Vietnamization, culiminated in the Colin Powell unilateral cease fire.
All this kindness generates nothing but war, after war, after war.
Really?
Bullshit.
I’d say the Crimean war lead to the Boer War which lead to WWI which lead to WWII and so on.
Or lets start earlier… the 30 years war? The 100 years war?
Want to start earlier?
The invasions of the west by the Vandals, and the Goths…
Earlier?
The Trojan wars.
War begets war.
Kindness has nothing to do with it.
| 112 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:40pm |
re: #109 The Shadow Do
I think Yon is now flying with Pedro, confirming Charles’ information regarding his embed now USAF. Should be some outstanding posts forthcoming from Michael.
Excellent.
VOTE FOR PEDRO
| 113 |
HelloDare Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:54pm |
Finally, CNN is covering some real news. /
Broom stands on its own.
| 114 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:04:52pm |
re: #107 buster
I saw pictures today of an Afghan farmer who had part of his nose and ear cut off by the Taliban, for carrying a voting card. He said he was ambushed on his way to a voting station
With an enemy this brutal, and backed by opium money, is there any way to win even with overwhelming force? I get the feeling they (the Taliban) will melt away into the hillside, for however long it takes; only to return when we reduce our forces
I think there is. Take the ground, hold it, train up the locals and provide them services. That is all a very tall order needing a hell of a lot of work and time. I doubt we are currently up for it though. And this will lead to more war, more often, more places.
| 115 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:05:51pm |
re: #105 opnion
What is the bottom line here, do we increase troop strength & go all out to win, or do we conclude that the Afghans are backward primitives & that the situation is hopeless?
Obama embraced this as the “Good” War, what now?
He will dilly and he will dally for the next 3+ years while steadily raising the troop levels, although not to what the Generals want. He will carry it out just long enough so that the “Tet” moment happens only when a R occupies the Oval office chair. I wish I was wrong but I don’t believe that I am.
| 116 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:06:48pm |
Your daily dose of Glenn Beck inciting political violence…
Beck thinks “there is a coup going on” in America
“They’re doing it under the guise of democracy.”
/ugh
| 119 |
doubter4444 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:08:20pm |
| 120 |
opnion Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:08:23pm |
re: #110 Occasional Reader
One observa
tion: People can be backward and primitive, without being rabidly violent. To the extent we can get a good portion of the Afghan people to see themselves as protecting their way of life against an alien, Saudi-funded ideology, that will be a good thing, even if those same people are quite happy to live in the Middle Ages themselves. And, of course, to the extent we can start pulling more of them into modernity, all the better.
Good observations & my hope is that you are correct.
Whatever happens It can’t look like a U.S defeat since that will embolden other Jihadis.
But what does victory look like? We either go all out now or come home imo. I don’t want our brave troops dying because of dithering.
| 121 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:09:47pm |
re: #111 doubter4444
Really?
Bullshit.
I’d say the Crimean war lead to the Boer War which lead to WWI which lead to WWII and so on.
Or lets start earlier… the 30 years war? The 100 years war?
Want to start earlier?
The invasions of the west by the Vandals, and the Goths…
Earlier?
The Trojan wars.
War begets war.
Kindness has nothing to do with it.
If you think about it War is pretty much a constant throughout human history. Both kindness and acts of war begets more war.
| 122 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:09:53pm |
re: #111 doubter4444
Really?
Bullshit.
I’d say the Crimean war lead to the Boer War which lead to WWI which lead to WWII and so on.
Or lets start earlier… the 30 years war? The 100 years war?
Want to start earlier?
The invasions of the west by the Vandals, and the Goths…
Earlier?
The Trojan wars.
War begets war.
Kindness has nothing to do with it.
Really, I date no-winwars to Korea but being no expert I could be wrong. I do know that in modern memory, complete victory in war is pretty much extinct. There is an undue willingness to accept half measures and yes I do believe this encourages aggressors everywhere.
| 123 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:10:46pm |
re: #113 HelloDare
Finally, CNN is covering some real news. /
Broom stands on its own.
Hillary left her ride in AL?
| 124 |
opnion Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:11:21pm |
re: #115 Truck Monkey
He will dilly and he will dally for the next 3+ years while steadily raising the troop levels, although not to what the Generals want. He will carry it out just long enough so that the “Tet” moment happens only when a R occupies the Oval office chair. I wish I was wrong but I don’t believe that I am.
You may be right, however I would hope that the next President would realise that the next TET moment is a victory & let people know.
I do get you about Obama, I have no confidence in him.
| 125 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:12:25pm |
re: #124 opnion
You may be right, however I would hope that the next President would realise that the next TET moment is a victory & let people know.
I do get you about Obama, I have no confidence in him.
I have plenty of confidence in Obama.
I’m confident he will be a complete fuck up at every turn.
| 127 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:15:12pm |
re: #116 Killgore Trout
Your daily dose of Glenn Beck inciting political violence…
Beck thinks “there is a coup going on” in America“They’re doing it under the guise of democracy.”
/ugh
I get it:
Communist!
Oligarhickal!
UnAmerican!
Pissants!
| 128 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:16:34pm |
US commander in Afghanistan proposes revamped strategy
The revised strategy, in the face of the Taliban’s expanding influence and waning support for the Kabul government, switches the emphasis from engaging directly with militants to winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan population, officials in Washington and at Nato headquarters said.
McChrystal graphically portrays the recent strategy of western forces as the equivalent of a lumbering bull attacking a matador’s cape, gradually tiring and finally being killed off.
Separate from his assessment submitted today, McChrystal is to go to Washington later this month to advise President Barack Obama on whether he needs more troops on top of the 108,000 international troops already there.
| 129 |
freetoken Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:16:39pm |
re: #116 Killgore Trout
Hey, he’s starting to sound like George Noory…
/we are all part of the great sekrit
| 130 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:18:15pm |
Wars end and do not continue when an enemy is clearly shown that further aggression is not worth the price they will pay for starting it.
Reconcilliation and nation building only work after a decisive defeat of the enemy.
| 131 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:18:46pm |
re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
More origami cranes. They love the hell out of those.
| 132 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:18:54pm |
| 133 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:19:26pm |
re: #131 theheat
More origami cranes. They love the hell out of those.
Maybe they can hold some bake sales too, and a car wash!
| 134 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:19:57pm |
re: #122 The Shadow Do
complete victory in war is pretty much extinct
Smallish but interesting exception, in my opinion: Panama, 1989. George Bush (pere) went it completely unilterally, no UN permission slip, to the round condenmnation of pretty much the whole world, including our usual allies. And… got the job done. Bad guy out, Panama set on path to being a pretty normal country, where they actually like us reasonably well.
And practically nobody bitches about it today, nor are explosive-wearing nutjobs making sucide runs at US Embassies over the thing.
| 136 |
SixDegrees Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:20:38pm |
re: #105 opnion
What is the bottom line here, do we increase troop strength & go all out to win, or do we conclude that the Afghans are backward primitives & that the situation is hopeless?
Obama embraced this as the “Good” War, what now?
One of the first things to do: stop relying on NATO. Just pretend they aren’t there at all. For all practical purposes, they’re not. The various European troops unlucky enough to draw Afghan duty are right where they’ve been from the very beginning of the conflict: hunkered down in Kabul refusing to deploy or do anything actually useful.
A couple of years ago, things were going pretty well in Afghanistan. Then the Taliban began asserting themselves and regaining control of the hinterlands, moving from there to more and more populous regions. Why? Because a couple of years ago, command passed from the US to NATO, and the Taliban have been virtually unopposed since.
If anything’s going to be accomplished, it will be accomplished by American troops doing what no European troops seem willing to do: fight. Take ground, and hold it. Provide a safe environment where ordinary Afghani citizens aren’t threatened and where those who want to live in a peaceful society are allowed to flourish.
Just forget about any help from our “allies.” They don’t have the stomach to do what’s necessary, and it’s foolish to count on them doing otherwise. If our troops occasionally rotate back into Kabul and find that the base toilets are sparkling clean - well, that’s an unexpected bonus of having NATO there. Accept it as the surprise it is, and shoulder the responsibility ourselves.
Or, bail.
But sitting around expecting our pathological alliance with Europe to suddenly right itself, waiting for NATO to take up arms and initiative against our common enemies, is losing proposition.
| 137 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:21:21pm |
re: #134 Occasional Reader
Smallish but interesting exception, in my opinion: Panama, 1989. George Bush (pere) went it completely unilterally, no UN permission slip, to the round condenmnation of pretty much the whole world, including our usual allies. And… got the job done. Bad guy out, Panama set on path to being a pretty normal country, where they actually like us reasonably well.
And practically nobody bitches about it today, nor are explosive-wearing nutjobs making sucide runs at US Embassies over the thing.
I do miss Pineapple face though. Is he still in a Miami jail?
| 138 |
Buster Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:22:02pm |
re: #114 The Shadow Do
I think there is. Take the ground, hold it, train up the locals and provide them services. That is all a very tall order needing a hell of a lot of work and time. I doubt we are currently up for it though. And this will lead to more war, more often, more places.
Afghanistan is a Gordian Knot…and there is no Alexander in sight (certainly not in the US or UK).
| 139 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:22:08pm |
re: #132 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Apparently, importing GM cars from the US isn’t as fun as building your own. And, of course, they can export them.
My head hurts.
| 140 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:23:23pm |
re: #138 Buster
Afghanistan is a Gordian Knot…and there is no Alexander in sight (certainly not in the US or UK).
So… you don’t expect Afgans to be bragging that they are descendents of Obama the Mediocre hundreds of years from now? /
| 141 |
Occasional Reader Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:23:23pm |
re: #137 Truck Monkey
I do miss Pineapple face though. Is he still in a Miami jail?
AFAIK. I always wondered who would win a hypothetical knife fight between Noriega and Saddam.
| 142 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:24:05pm |
re: #139 theheat
Apparently, importing GM cars from the US isn’t as fun as building your own. And, of course, they can export them.
My head hurts.
They won’t have to take the california emmissions equipment off of their new Buicks. Much simpler that way.
| 143 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:24:28pm |
re: #141 Occasional Reader
AFAIK. I always wondered who would win a hypothetical knife fight between Noriega and Saddam.
Are wood chippers allowed? /
| 144 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:25:15pm |
re: #142 DaddyG
We know they’re all about the environment in China.
| 145 |
Buster Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:25:37pm |
re: #140 DaddyG
So… you don’t expect Afgans to be bragging that they are descendents of Obama the Mediocre hundreds of years from now? /
Not so much.
| 146 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:25:45pm |
re: #83 Kenneth
It is.
(typing this on my antediluvian Windows XP box)
Hey, Windows XP runs better than Vista!
| 147 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:25:49pm |
re: #141 Occasional Reader
AFAIK. I always wondered who would win a hypothetical knife fight between Noriega and Saddam.
Fair fight or prison rules?
| 149 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:28:34pm |
re: #141 Occasional Reader
AFAIK. I always wondered who would win a hypothetical knife fight between Noriega and Saddam.
I would have liked to have the pay per view rights to that one. Mean Gene Okerlund could have had some marvelous pre fight interviews to get the partisans all fired up. Saddam with a pink boa and Noriega in overalls and work boots. Excellent.
| 150 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:29:54pm |
re: #149 Truck Monkey
I would have liked to have the pay per view rights to that one. Mean Gene Okerlund could have had some marvelous pre fight interviews to get the partisans all fired up. Saddam with a pink boa and Noriega in overalls and work boots. Excellent.
Half way thru the match, Castro would sneak out from under the ring and clobber them both with a chair shot.
| 151 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:30:37pm |
re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
The Taliban pays no attention to lines on a map and will fade across the border into Pakistan and other areas as needed. Until we’re willing to hunt them down where ever they hide, its a losing battle.
And show we are willing to protect villages, and villagers from the Taliban.
| 153 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:30:41pm |
re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
The revised strategy, in the face of the Taliban’s expanding influence and waning support for the Kabul government, switches the emphasis from engaging directly with militants to winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan population, officials in Washington and at Nato headquarters said.
McChrystal graphically portrays the recent strategy of western forces as the equivalent of a lumbering bull attacking a matador’s cape, gradually tiring and finally being killed off.
Separate from his assessment submitted today, McChrystal is to go to Washington later this month to advise President Barack Obama on whether he needs more troops on top of the 108,000 international troops already there.
I am really beginning to question McChrystal. Hearts and minds in Iraq only followed when the Sunnis discovered AQ were cut throat SOB’s and turned on them. It had zip to do with candy for kids. He is in for a rude awakening if he thinks the Afghans will follow a similar pattern with the Taliban. Hell, they are the Taliban.
Fighting the last war as usual. If this is the current thinking we need to get the hell out before one more soldier gets hurt.
I’d like to hear from Petraeus. McChrystal, spec ops expert is a given. Strategist? Show me, I have no evidence to date.
| 154 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:32:03pm |
I think I should start organizing a militia to oppose the conspira-loons when they take over. Unfortunately, it costs a fortune to outfit even a decent platoon, let alone a secret army. What we need is some sinister sugar-daddy like Soros.
One thing that is really to our advantage: A conspira-liar administration would be fundamentally incapable of defending itself from real opposition, since it is part of their dogma to blame all opposition on someone other than the real perpetrators.
| 155 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:32:19pm |
re: #149 Truck Monkey
I would have liked to have the pay per view rights to that one. Mean Gene Okerlund could have had some marvelous pre fight interviews to get the partisans all fired up. Saddam with a pink boa and Noriega in overalls and work boots. Excellent.
Warm up fight between Evita Peron and Imelda Marcos.
| 156 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:33:05pm |
re: #154 Shiplord Kirel
“That’s just what they want you to think” - Dale Gribble
| 157 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:33:24pm |
re: #150 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Half way thru the match, Castro would sneak out from under the ring and clobber them both with a chair shot.
The he would tag team Chavez who would drop in from the turnbuckle.
| 158 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:34:07pm |
re: #155 DaddyG
Warm up fight between Evita Peron and Imelda Marcos.
Imelda would shoe Evita to death…
| 159 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:34:18pm |
re: #155 DaddyG
Warm up fight between Evita Peron and Imelda Marcos.
In bikinis… preferably in pudding or jello.
| 160 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:34:46pm |
| 161 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:34:46pm |
re: #154 Shiplord Kirel
I think I should start organizing a militia to oppose the conspira-loons when they take over. Unfortunately, it costs a fortune to outfit even a decent platoon, let alone a secret army. What we need is some sinister sugar-daddy like Soros.
One thing that is really to our advantage: A conspira-liar administration would be fundamentally incapable of defending itself from real opposition, since it is part of their dogma to blame all opposition on someone other than the real perpetrators.
Like another layer of foil.
| 162 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:36:23pm |
re: #157 jcm
The he would tag team Chavez who would drop in from the turnbuckle.
I don’t think any of the actors would be agile enough to pull off the ‘header into the press table’ stunt. Would be fun to see though.
| 164 |
Buster Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:39:45pm |
re: #160 DaddyG
High heels.
Stop it! I don’t what to see Imelda in anything but a mu-mu… and from a distance.
| 165 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:42:04pm |
| 166 |
DaddyG Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:42:04pm |
Enjoy your respective evenings/mornings wherever you are!
| 167 |
MandyManners Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:42:39pm |
Has anyone reposted yma’s article from this morning about the British military having some soldiers practice with blanks?
| 168 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:43:00pm |
Secret camps and guillotines? Groups make ‘birthers’ look sane
In one, retired FBI agent Ted Gunderson says the government has prepared 1,000 camps for its own citizens. He also says the government has stored 30,000 guillotines to murder its critics, and has stashed 500,000 caskets in Georgia and Montana for the remains.Why guillotines? “Because,” he wrote in a report obtained by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups, “beheading is the most efficient means of harvesting body parts.”
| 169 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:44:31pm |
re: #168 theheat
Secret camps and guillotines? Groups make ‘birthers’ look sane
You know you’re just dying to get invited to FEMA Camp!
//
| 170 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:44:33pm |
re: #165 Truck Monkey
Threadworthy. There were a lot of talented dudes in the
WWFAWA.
Ahem. A lot of talent was picked up from other “leagues”.
| 171 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:44:50pm |
re: #168 theheat
Secret camps and guillotines? Groups make ‘birthers’ look sane
Wonder who got those guillotine contracts? Man, that would be really good bucks.
| 172 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:45:46pm |
re: #169 jcm
U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., also is worried about the federal government and children, saying a bill expanding the AmeriCorps volunteer service could lead to mandatory camps for young people.
I hope I’m not too old. I loved camp.
| 173 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:46:26pm |
re: #168 theheat
Secret camps and guillotines? Groups make ‘birthers’ look sane
Wouldn’t plastic baggies and zipties serve the purpose just as well?
| 174 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:46:55pm |
| 175 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:47:02pm |
re: #168 theheat
Ted Gunderson
What a nut.
| 176 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:47:15pm |
re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
1.) rot, 2.) smell. If it’s good enough for chickens, it’s good enough for organ harvesting.
| 177 |
Truck Monkey Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:47:30pm |
re: #170 Sharmuta
Ahem. A lot of talent was picked up from other “leagues”.
Brings back memories. Vern Gagne. The Crusher. My favorite, although I never saw him win, was Scrap Iron Godaski.
| 178 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:47:49pm |
re: #171 The Shadow Do
Wonder who got those guillotine contracts? Man, that would be really good bucks.
No kidding. It’s not like they could put it out for general bids. Even if they did, imagine what a federal spec guillotine would be like. You’d have to have OSHA certification and EPA impact analysis at the very least.
| 179 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:48:11pm |
| 180 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:48:27pm |
re: #172 theheat
I hope I’m not too old. I loved camp.
Most parents would love to get rid of the kids for the summer!
/;-P
| 181 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:48:43pm |
re: #176 theheat
1.) rot, 2.) smell. If it’s good enough for chickens, it’s good enough for organ harvesting.
Nah, you just slip the bad over the head, zip it tight and let them suffocate, then ya got no mess to clean up.
| 183 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:49:28pm |
re: #171 The Shadow Do
Wonder who got those guillotine contracts? Man, that would be really good bucks.
Cutting edge technology always has a good profit.
| 184 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:51:06pm |
re: #168 theheat
In another ominous warning, a group called the Oathkeepers boasts that it wouldn’t cooperate if the government orders dissidents locked up.
“We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext,” the group says in its list of top principles.
Oathkeepers is built around the idea that its members — active and retired military, police and firefighters — all have taken an oath to defend the Constitution, not the federal government.
Whether inspired by the group or not, the message of loyalty to the Constitution has been heard in many of the angry protests in town hall meetings this summer against a proposed health care overhaul — often side by side with the suggestion that the health care proposal is unconstitutional.
| 186 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:54:10pm |
Sad story…
Wildfire traps 5 people at Los Angeles-area ranch
The Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department says five people who refused to heed wildfire evacuation orders are trapped in a canyon and it’s too dangerous to rescue them.Sheriff’s spokesman Steve Whitmore says the four men and a woman refused to leave the Angeles National Forest two days ago. On Monday they called for help because they were unable to leave a ranch in Gold Canyon.
Whitmore says a sheriff’s helicopter had planned to help but the flames are too intense and authorities must wait for the fire to pass by before going in.
Authorities say three other people were badly burned over the weekend after refusing evacuation orders. Two of them sought refuge in a hot tub.
| 187 |
MJ Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:55:40pm |
Just how anti-Israel is Obama and the “Journalists” who cover the State Department?
QUESTION: The Jerusalem Post has a poll that showed that only 6 percent of Israelis actually support and think that the – President Obama is pro-Israel. Does that concern you at all?
MR. KELLY: Well, I think that our support for Israel and the President’s support for Israel is unwavering. I haven’t seen the results of that poll, but I think that the people of Israel know who stands with them.
QUESTION: Do you think that Secretary Clinton may think that a more balanced Mideast policy would be more appropriate?
MR. KELLY: You’re asking a very tough last question, I have to say. I’ll defer comment and – thank you very much.
[Link: www.state.gov…]
” I think that the people of Israel know who stands with them.”
Answer: It ain’t Obama.
“Do you think that Secretary Clinton may think that a more balanced Mideast policy would be more appropriate?”
“Balanced” Mideast policy is code word for being even more anti-Israel.
| 188 |
Korla Pundit Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:57:10pm |
I think Bush’s initial approach of ‘this is our war, don’t get involved, NATO” was a good one. Just like in Rwanda and Kosovo and all other “wars by committee,” there is no cohesion, too much red tape, too much international politicizing, and not enough “can do.”
Let’s face it. NATO is just the EU wearing a Dukakis tank helmet.
Of course, going that route will be very unlikely at least until 2012, unfortunately.
| 189 |
Ben Hur Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:57:52pm |
| 190 |
jcm Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:58:08pm |
re: #186 Killgore Trout
Sad story…
Wildfire traps 5 people at Los Angeles-area ranch
Darwin sucks…
semi /
I don’t have a lot of sympathy for such folks, sad, but self inflicted circumstances.
| 191 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:59:00pm |
re: #183 jcm
Cutting edge technology always has a good profit.
At least until you have to deal with minimal edge standards, weight of blade, speed of blade etc. Worse still, would be dealing with environmentally correct torso disposal, compliance with head restoratiion legislation, etc.
A simple beheading gets very costly, but if priced in one could make a killiing!
| 192 |
Russkilitlover Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:59:01pm |
re: #186 Killgore Trout
Sad story…
Wildfire traps 5 people at Los Angeles-area ranch
Two of them sought refuge in a hot tub.
Actually the didn’t seek refuge there, they chose to not evacuate and decided to ride out the fire in the hot tub. The stupid? Yeah, we’ve got ‘em.
| 193 |
theheat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:00:32pm |
re: #192 Russkilitlover
I thought when it said ranch, maybe they’d stayed trying to get their critters out safely. Somehow, saving your animals and riding out the fire in a hot tub don’t seem to coincide.
| 194 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:00:54pm |
re: #191 The Shadow Do
At least until you have to deal with minimal edge standards, weight of blade, speed of blade etc. Worse still, would be dealing with environmentally correct torso disposal, compliance with head restoratiion legislation, etc.
A simple beheading gets very costly, but if priced in one could make a killiing!
Perhaps a conveyor belt, leading one past murals of peaceful Mediterranean scenes, into the rotating knives…
| 195 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:01:33pm |
re: #192 Russkilitlover
Actually the didn’t seek refuge there, they chose to not evacuate and decided to ride out the fire in the hot tub. The stupid? Yeah, we’ve got ‘em.
So instead of burning, you can get boiled, lovely.
| 196 |
opnion Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:02:55pm |
Charles Krauthammer writing for syndication today said while advising the Obamites on how to get Health Reform back on track,
‘Jettison any reference to end of life counseling. People see (correctly)
such Medicare paid advice as subtle encouragement to voluntarily refuse treatment.”
| 198 |
Korla Pundit Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:06:01pm |
re: #196 opnion
>’Jettison any reference to end of life counseling.
I have a better formula: Jettison any word with a vowel.
But I swear if the bill reads “Hmmm,” I would still be agin it, because a thousand pages of the other stuff would be reinserted in committee.
| 199 |
Lee Coller Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:06:22pm |
re: #188 Korla Pundit
I think Bush’s initial approach of ‘this is our war, don’t get involved, NATO” was a good one. Just like in Rwanda and Kosovo and all other “wars by committee,” there is no cohesion, too much red tape, too much international politicizing, and not enough “can do.”
Let’s face it. NATO is just the EU wearing a Dukakis tank helmet.
Of course, going that route will be very unlikely at least until 2012, unfortunately.
What? NATO did get involved (Bush asked them to, invoking the mutual defense treaty. Its NATO forces in Afghanistan. NATO is not in Iraq — not because we didn’t want them but because they refused to become involved.
| 200 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:06:30pm |
re: #175 Killgore Trout
Ted Gunderson
What a nut.
One thing that really alarms me about this: I can’t quantify it, of course, but I have the impression that ideas like Gunderson’s are much more widely accepted than the really well-informed might typically realize. It seems laughable to us, but that is not true for anyone, not by a long shot.
I am around construction workers, oil-field types, and mechanics quite a bit. In these groups, belief in unconstitutional government plans and conspiracies is practically universal. These guys are from stupid, as their willingness to disregard common memes demonstrates, but they have never had the intellectual tools to properly evaluate the blizzard of information and disinformation that comes their way every day in the modern world. The conspiracy theorists are saying what they want to hear and they don’t see the red flag that raises.
In a different segment of society, a couple of welfare workers have told me that many of their colleagues and almost all of their clients share a different (but similarly crazy) set of conspiracy beliefs. Ex-convicts, and the underclass over which they have so much influence, are almost unanimous in believing that the CIA and Jewish bankers control the drug trade and that law enforcement is a sham.
| 201 |
opnion Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:08:09pm |
| 202 |
Korla Pundit Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:12:09pm |
re: #199 Lee Coller
> What? NATO did get involved (Bush asked them to, invoking the mutual defense treaty. Its NATO forces in Afghanistan. NATO is not in Iraq — not because we didn’t want them but because they refused to become involved.
I’m talking about AFghanistan, which the U.S. dealt with alone until the Taliban had been ousted. I remember, in fact, Europeans huffing and puffing about being excluded. However, I do recall that the mutual defense treaty was invoked by Bush to have NATO planes help patrol the skies for more hijacked planes and such. NATO was not invited to help out in Afghanistan until it looked like we had already won. But now that NATO is involved, we have gone back to the long slog.
Shoulda kept it private.
| 203 |
quickjustice Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:12:33pm |
Well, it won’t be the first time the British Army has had problems in Afghanistan:
[Link: www.mainlesson.com…]
“I AM going to tell the story of the greatest disaster that ever happened to a British army.
In 1838-39 the Indian Government sent an army into Afghanistan. Its object was to restore a certain prince, Shah Soojah by name, who had been driven into exile nearly twenty years before. It hoped that he would be grateful for what had been done for him, and that the country which he ruled would be a valuable ally. Unfortunately, Shah Soojah was a feeble creature, and his people hated him because he had been put over them by foreigners.
[182] For some time, however, everything was quiet, though there were some who suspected danger. But in 1841 some of the Afghan chiefs rebelled. They had been provoked by having the payment which had been made to keep them quiet reduced. What they did was to occupy the passes between Afghanistan and India. The most important of these was the Khyber Pass, of which I shall have more to say hereafter. A brigade which was returning to India was attacked on its way, and suffered no small loss, though it managed at last to get clear. The officer in command, General Sale, thought it best not to go further than the town of Jellalabad. This place, of which we shall hear again, he occupied and fortified.
Meanwhile a riot had broken out at Cabul, the capital of Afghanistan, and the envoy of the Indian Government was murdered. Very soon the whole city was in a state of revolt. The English force, which was considerable—four regiments of infantry and two of cavalry, with some other troops—was badly managed. Forts which might have been defended were given up, and other opportunities of attacking or resisting the enemy were lost. Elsewhere, also, great losses were suffered. One native regiment mutinied and murdered its officers; another was destroyed by the Afghans.”
Read it all.
| 204 |
Eowyn2 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:16:51pm |
Thank you Charles for continuing to post the Yon stories.
| 205 |
right_on_target Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:25:27pm |
re: #190 jcm
Darwin sucks…
semi /
I don’t have a lot of sympathy for such folks, sad, but self inflicted circumstances.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Some people will STAY with their homes, no matter what.
Whether fire, war, hurricane, whatever. Their home (not house) is their life. I’ve met people who have nothing left after a hurricane but still pitched a tent on an empty slab. Their choice.
| 206 |
JHW Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:26:21pm |
At least one other, perhaps two, NATO country should be mentioned as pulling their weight alongside the US, UK, and Canadians is the Netherlands and I think Denmark also. Despite having small armed forces they’ve been in the thick of it. Dutch air support and their commando teams have been very effective. YouTube has several videos of these two nations’ troops in action, including a solemn one of Danes killed in action. Believe it or not, French troops have been operating with US forces and gaining praise from them for their professionalism. However, a lot of others are staying to the safer regions, notably Germany.
| 207 |
Stoatly Mon, Aug 31, 2009 5:11:31pm |
re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
God damn it. Putting peoples lives on the line without the equipment, numbers or support they need is just plain evil. Either give them what they need to win or admit that the politicians, not the troops, fucked up and bring them home.
I can’t believe this horseshit.
I felt the same cold anger while reading Yon’s piece as I did watching Sean Langan’s “Fighting The Taleban” from 2006
| 208 |
lostlakehiker Mon, Aug 31, 2009 5:27:01pm |
re: #4 Ben Hur
The British soldier is winning.
The British media is losing.
The British soldier is a fine fighting man. His officers are good. His equipment is good. But Afghanistan is a big place and the Brits are outnumbered badly.
Quantity has a quality all its own. Going on what Yon is reporting, and though he doesn’t have the full picture what he reports can be trusted and it seems to be a fair sample, the Taliban have the numbers to the point that they’re winning in Helmand.
The U.S. is going to have to commit more force and pick up more of the load. That, or chuck it—-and there would be consequences to throwing in the towel, because this war is a facet of a larger war that’s not optional, because we’re the defenders.
| 209 |
Seax Mon, Aug 31, 2009 8:07:06pm |
My brother - a helicopter pilot - was in Britain not that long
ago. While there he was there he said he saw lots of helicopters on an English Base - all wrapped up - with many more in hangars.
When I asked how many he just replied - “Lots”.
The problem he said was that there were not enough trained pilots
to fly them.
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