Big Pharma: Evil, or Not Evil?

Health • Views: 3,516

The 3 Monkeys Guide to Health blog has an excellent post about the enormous fines levied against the drug company Pfizer, and the distorted claims being made about the situation: Pfizer Pleads Guilty, Pays $2.3 Billion For Off-Label Use of Bextra, Zyvox, Geodon and Lyrica.

In this case it was overzealous sales reps without sufficient oversight who caused the problem, and you can be certain Pfizer will implement better controls to keep it from happening again.

All too many people have this notion that big pharmaceutical companies are evil and working against the interests of the common man. The settlement will do nothing to deter that view, but it is far from the truth. Those misconceptions derive from a lack of understanding of the drug discovery process and the high costs associated with it.

Read the whole thing…

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339 comments
1 JamesTKirk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:53:12am

The maker of viagra faces some stiff fines.

2 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:53:18am
3 thedopefishlives  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:53:33am

re: #1 JamesTKirk

The maker of viagra faces some stiff fines.

Sure to get a rise out of some people.

4 turn  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:54:40am

re: #1 JamesTKirk

The maker of viagra faces some stiff fines.

Woodn’t ya know it?

5 JamesTKirk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:54:47am

re: #3 thedopefishlives

Sure to get a rise out of some people.

All that matters is what happens on erection day in 2010.

6 Irish Rose  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:55:36am

re: #3 thedopefishlives

Sure to get a rise out of some people.

Especially in these hard times.

7 Charpete67  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:56:06am

I knew with all this Viagara talk there would surely be a pun in the oven.

8 thedopefishlives  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:56:14am

re: #5 JamesTKirk

All that matters is what happens on erection day in 2010.

I’m sure the morning would be especially telling.

9 Coracle  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:56:38am

I was going to pull out of this thread. But I may have to stay up for the discussion.

10 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:56:59am

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s Pharma no more.

Dylan told me that once…

11 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:57:05am

No shit!
It’s really expensive to manufacture methan…ah…ah…
…ah…Stuff..!

12 Charpete67  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:57:19am

Ire: #9 Coracle

I was going to pull out of this thread. But I may have to stay up for the discussion.

I usually post too soon.

13 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:58:01am

re: #12 Charpete67

I usually post too soon.

There’s cures for that.

14 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:58:05am

You know what they say: Big Pharma …deep pockets

15 Charpete67  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:58:43am

re: #13 Honorary Yooper

There’s cures for that.

visualizing Karl Malden naked?

16 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:58:43am

re: #12 Charpete67

I usually post too soon.

“I see, Mr. Hurricane”

17 Locker  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:59:01am

Personally I don’t think big pharma or corporations are evil. My area of concern has to do with corporations have the legal rights of a person combine with money being considered free speech. The amount of direct influence exerted over government compared to actual citizen people is what troubles me. No calls here for the downfall of capitalism but concerns are concerns.

Off topic but Charles did you change the spell checker code/functionality? I like it but it could just be some script I had blocked. Nice one.

18 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 11:59:25am

Big Pharma, hated by many (moonbat anti-vaxers, antigovernment kooks, etc), but needed by all.

19 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:00:16pm

Well, this is good, and it should exonerate Obama of working secretly with Big Pharma. And for a while I thought Obama was letting the progressives down and going against all his promises of not making any deals with Big Bad Pharma. Now we can relax.
/

20 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:00:23pm

re: #1 JamesTKirk

The maker of viagra faces some stiff fines.

They had it coming.

21 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:00:24pm

If this thread continues for 4 hours, see your system administrator immediately!

22 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:00:30pm

re: #15 Charpete67

visualizing Karl Malden naked?

I was thinking more along the lines of Maureen Dowd, but that’ll work.

23 Diego  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:00:53pm

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices. It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it and but it is much more wrong when medications, which are required for people’s survival, are treated in this way.

24 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:00:56pm

I’m waiting for the new Facebook game, PharmaVille.

25 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:01:00pm

I have never taken a drug that did not give me the desired effect
and or outcome for why I intended by taking it in the first place!
…It made sense to me when a typed it!!

26 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:01:24pm

re: #20 Cannadian Club Akbar

They had it coming.

That’s a stiff charge.

27 Dianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:01:48pm

re: #15 Charpete67

visualizing Karl Malden naked?

That would work.

28 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:01:54pm

re: #26 Honorary Yooper

That’s a stiff charge.

But will it hold up?

29 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:02:33pm

re: #23 Diego

We get charged more than other countries because we do not regulate their prices. If other countries would stop trying to regualte prices, maybe ours would come down.

30 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:02:40pm

re: #28 Cannadian Club Akbar

Just remember the four hour warning! ok?

31 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:03:05pm

re: #1 JamesTKirk

The maker of viagra faces some stiff fines.

For their Pharmacia and Upjohn units. /thanks… I’ll be here all day

32 Diego  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:03:18pm

re: #29 Honorary Yooper

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

33 thedopefishlives  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:03:49pm

re: #32 Diego

Of course. The solution to any problem is - surprise! - more government regulation.

/

34 coquimbojoe  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:03:56pm

I work (sell) for ‘Big Orthopedics’. There is good and bad behavior everywhere. Most doctors strive to do their best for their patients and most reps strive to be within the law and do whats right. I have seen everything. I would say medical companies are far more benevolent than they are made to seem.

35 HoosierHoops  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:04:03pm

re: #7 Charpete67

I knew with all this Viagara talk there would surely be a pun in the oven.

What about all those old guys taking Viagra having an erection lasting longer than 4 hours…They call their Doctor and get a 6 week appointment?
What’s that all about?
Think of the Senior Citizens!
/

36 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:04:12pm

Big Pharma isn’t the enemy.

Bush is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Cheney is the enemy.

Halliburton is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Investment banks.

The mortgage banks are the enemy.

No. Wait.

Big insurance is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Management of American car companies are the enemy.

No. Wait.

Big Tobacco is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Big Oil is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Big Coal is the enemy.

Who isn’t our enemy?

Our enemies.

37 Diego  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:04:19pm

re: #26 Honorary Yooper

That’s a stiff charge.

You’re presenting a limp argument..

38 coquimbojoe  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:04:47pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

Yes, but so would development of new products and life saving devices.

39 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:04pm

re: #36 Ben Hur

Cleaned the bong today, huh?

40 Coracle  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:08pm

re: #29 Honorary Yooper

It is pretty annoying that we subsidize drug development for the rest of the world.

41 thedopefishlives  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:15pm

re: #37 Diego

You’re presenting a limp argument..

Only you would have the balls to say something like that.

42 Charpete67  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:18pm

re: #35 HoosierHoops

What about all those old guys taking Viagra having an erection lasting longer than 4 hours…They call their Doctor and get a 6 week appointment?
What’s that all about?
Think of the Senior Citizens!
/

…they really have to wait for fours hours to realize they have a problem?…

43 reine.de.tout  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:21pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices. It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it and but it is much more wrong when medications, which are required for people’s survival, are treated in this way.

Are you saying that it’s reasonable to let those folks in poorer countries die because they should be paying the (unaffordable to them) higher prices that we pay?

44 SixDegrees  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:27pm
In this case it was overzealous sales reps without sufficient oversight who caused the problem, and you can be certain Pfizer will implement better controls to keep it from happening again.

No doubt. However, Pfizer has been hit with similar charges four times over the last 10 years, and fined a total of half a billion dollars along the way. While this much larger penalty will certainly get their attention, it isn’t clear that it will have a larger impact than it has in the past.

45 Locker  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:32pm

re: #33 thedopefishlives

Really? I thought the solution to any problem was free markets and no regulation?

46 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:37pm

Not Evil.

Warning! Zoloft is indicated in the treatment of suicidal depression. Contact your doctor if you have suicidal thoughts while taking this medication. In rare cases suicidal behavior can be a side-effect.

Translation: Sometimes Zoloft doesn’t work. If you aren’t responding to it, get help.

47 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:05:55pm

re: #39 Cannadian Club Akbar

Cleaned the bong today, huh?

It self cleans.

And bongs are just so provincial.

I’m a J man myself.

With a little Tobacco.

48 Diego  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:06:10pm

re: #43 reine.de.tout

Canada? Poorer? UK? Poorer?

I’m not talking about the wilds of Africa..

49 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:06:12pm

What a cool blog that link goes to.

About:

The classic 3 monkeys are blind, deaf, and mute. Individually, they appear to be handicapped, but by co-operating together they are much smarter than you.

You need to learn to CLOSE YOUR EYES in order to see.

You need to learn to BLOCK YOUR EARS in order to listen.

You need to learn to SHUT YOUR MOUTH because you talk too much.

Effective learning involves filtering out nonsense. Here, we discuss health in all its aspects: physical, mental, and political. (The last one could be mental.) Our discussions will touch on the past, focus on the present, and gaze longingly into our bright future. We mercilessly cut down the charlatans, hustlers, and politicians who have ill intent. We also celebrate the wonderful and wise who toil for our ultimate benefit.

Use the combined wisdom of the 3 monkeys to become healthy, wealthy, and wise.

50 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:06:16pm

re: #1 JamesTKirk

The maker of viagra faces some stiff fines.

Don’t you think you’re being a bit hard on them?

51 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:06:20pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

Yes, but at the expense of research and development. There’d be far fewer new and promising drugs coming down the pipeline. It takes a lot of money to develop these things.

52 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:06:23pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices. It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it and but it is much more wrong when medications, which are required for people’s survival, are treated in this way.

Horrors… it’s wrong to make a profit.

Here’s a good deal for you. Everything that you have accumulated in your life, in your house, your electronic toys, your furniture, and jewelry you have laying around, anything that you invested YOUR TIME AND MONEY INTO, you open you front door and invite everyone in that can’t afford your level of living.

Give the shit away, ok.

(P.S. BUZZ - I noticed a possible denial of intellectual rights in Diego’s comment above “It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it…,” you want to handle that part?)

53 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:06:24pm

I want the moonbats to live by their word. They should use only pharcological products that are invented and manufactured by local non-profit artisan co-ops.

54 MJ  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:06:42pm

“In this case it was overzealous sales reps without sufficient oversight who caused the problem, and you can be certain Pfizer will implement better controls to keep it from happening again.”

I don’t believe that for a moment.
Geodon was initially marketed for schizophrenia ( and it wasn’t much good there either.) Side effects were played down…way down. It was then marketed “off label”. There are almost no controls for off label marketing.
End free samples to doctors.
End all promos to doctors and hospitals.
End sales quotas on sales reps.
End false claims that newer drugs work better than many older, generic drugs.
It is simply untrue.
End false patent claims which tie up the release of generic drugs for years.

55 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:06:46pm

I’ve always had touches of asthma - born with it - and the pharmaceutical companies, who have developed better inhalers have made my life better or perhaps possible; and I certainly could not have built up my lung strength to piping levels without an earlier help from “Big Pharm.”

56 Jack Burton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:07:28pm

re: #29 Honorary Yooper

We get charged more than other countries because we do not regulate their prices. If other countries would stop trying to regualte prices, maybe ours would come down.

I believe in some cases “regulate” is a euphemism for “give it to us at our price or we will void your patents.”

57 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:07:32pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices.

Hear, hear! The government should set “fair” prices for everything!

/good grief

58 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:07:51pm

And I thought they stopped being the enemy once they paid hollywood actors for their commercials.

59 SixDegrees  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:07:58pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices. It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it and but it is much more wrong when medications, which are required for people’s survival, are treated in this way.

It’s called “charging what the market will bear.” There’s nothing wrong with it - people are, obviously, happy to pay the price being asked, here and elsewhere.

If customers don’t like the price, they’re free to purchase something else. Or nothing at all, if that suits them. But there’s nothing wrong with charging a price people are willing to pay.

60 reine.de.tout  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:08:18pm

re: #48 Diego

Canada? Poorer? UK? Poorer?

I’m not talking about the wilds of Africa..

OH. Since you didn’t specify Canada or the UK, I was confused as to what you were talking about. My bad - I should have read your mind.

My question, though - was:

Are you saying that it’s reasonable to let those folks in poorer countries die because they should be paying the (unaffordable to them) higher prices that we pay?

61 Charpete67  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:08:27pm

…if I can’t afford it…it must cost too much?…//

62 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:08:31pm

re: #53 Occasional Reader

I want the moonbats to live by their word. They should use only pharcological products that are invented and manufactured by local non-profit artisan co-ops.

pharmacological

Gah.

63 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:08:31pm
64 pat  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:08:52pm

All corporations think of themselves first. But does anyone think that government thinks any different. Not this administration. One only has to review the medical prowess of the old Soviet Union to see the effects of a governmental monopoly on drug research and distribution.

65 HoosierHoops  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:09:09pm

re: #42 Charpete67

…they really have to wait for fours hours to realize they have a problem?…

I’m Not a Heathcare professional.. But if I was 80 years old with a erection lasting longer than 4 hours I’m not calling my Doctor.. I’m writing a letter to Penthouse..
Dear Penthouse…There I was watching AMC Classic Movies…

66 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:09:10pm
It is your job as a citizen to be informed of facts because merely listening to some politician run through talking points at a town hall meeting will not teach you anything. For example, take a look at this video of Barney Frank at a recent meeting, in which he discusses illegal immigrants and the proposed healthcare reform bill.

An ignorant citizen would say, “well, it is there in black and white, so I feel better about it.” The informed citizen pipes up and says, “there is nothing in the entire bill enforcing that provision, thereby making it useless and ineffective in real life.” Which citizen are you?

67 subsailor68  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:09:17pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

I’m not sure what your point is? You posit an “if” - “then” when what I think you’re saying is that regulation would result in lower prices because government would be setting the price. Unfortunately, what most bureaucrats forget is that there’s a difference between “price” and “cost”. Forcing lower “prices” doesn’t impact the “cost” to discover, and can actually result in fewer products, and less supply.

68 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:09:20pm

There are many drugs that are used “off label” that save lives.

A common strategy for drug companies is to get approval for use on a pathology that is easy to demonstrate effectiveness against when the bigger market exists for another pathology that would take longer to get approval for.

So the maker will go through the approval process while simultaneously sponsoring university studies of the same molecule being used against other pathologies. When shown effective in such studies, many practitioners will go “off label” to use the drug against that other pathology.

This strategy has been vital to the development of oncology drugs that attack tumors by cutting off their blood supply.

69 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:09:35pm

re: #56 ArchangelMichael

I believe in some cases “regulate” is a euphemism for “give it to us at our price or we will void your patentsjust go ahead and steal it.”

(Just to make it even more clear)

70 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:10:07pm

If any of you left-leaning folks think government-run health care is a good idea, I have something for you to ponder.

Imagine that Dick Cheney was in charge of deciding whether or not you would receive treatment.

71 FrogMarch  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:10:14pm

Just got back from the grocery store where I over-heard a couple of store employees talking about health care. They were talking loud so I had little choice but to listen. Anyhow, listen I did. What I gathered from their brief conversation: These guys know nothing about the Bill. The “public option” is just an abstract notion or a game. They just wanted to stick it to the republicans.

I doubt they have a clue about the economics behind what HR3200 would do to our deficit, our economy, our health care choices, and our taxes. Nope - just screw over those horrid Republicans.

72 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:10:17pm

re: #63 buzzsawmonkey

And what, by the way, are you babbling about re the music and film industries?

The rest of the world should have to pay just as much to hear Britney Spears as we do!

(or something like that)

73 pat  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:10:25pm

NPR finds out that Obama lied about his ambassadorial appointments.
[Link: hotair.com…]

74 SixDegrees  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:10:28pm

re: #46 NukeAtomrod

Not Evil.

Warning! Zoloft is indicated in the treatment of suicidal depression. Contact your doctor if you have suicidal thoughts while taking this medication. In rare cases suicidal behavior can be a side-effect.

Translation: Sometimes Zoloft doesn’t work. If you aren’t responding to it, get help.

Also, as I understand it you can be so depressed that action - like lifting a finger to take your own life - is virtually impossible. Taking anti-suicidal drugs may lessen the depression enough that you’re able to act. In this sense, the anti-depressant is actively contributing to your suicide, in the sense that it is getting you into a state where such an action is now possible, whereas without the drug you would have been much more depressed, but incapable of doing anything about it.

Monitoring, in any case, is extremely important.

75 Charpete67  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:10:30pm

re: #65 HoosierHoops

I’m Not a Heathcare professional.. But if I was 80 years old with a erection lasting longer than 4 hours I’m not calling my Doctor.. I’m writing a letter to Penthouse..
Dear Penthouse…There I was watching AMC Classic Movies…

holy belly laugh and diet coke spew…

76 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:11:13pm
77 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:11:18pm

re: #67 subsailor68

I’m not sure what your point is? You posit an “if” - “then” when what I think you’re saying is that regulation would result in lower prices because government would be setting the price. Unfortunately, what most bureaucrats forget is that there’s a difference between “price” and “cost”. Forcing lower “prices” doesn’t impact the “cost” to discover, and can actually result in fewer products, and less supply.

3wood? Is that you?


/that’s a compliment, needless to say, subs! Nicely done.

78 jcm  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:11:37pm

Every field has bad apples who’ll do anything for personal gain.
Doesn’t make the whole area of endeavor evil.

79 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:11:42pm

re: #1 JamesTKirk

The maker of viagra faces some stiff fines.

In bed.

80 MikeAlv77  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:12:07pm

Having works for a pharm company about 10 years ago in the drug discovery area I can tell you that the cost of finding a new drug and putting it on the market is ENORMOUS. 10+ years ago the price was in the $500 mil range or more. Its got to be $1 Billion or more now. If you regulate the company from charging what they need for a good return on the huge investment, they just won’t invest the money.

Of course I forget that turning a profit is evil…

81 Charpete67  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:12:22pm

re: #79 MandyManners

In bed.

…that’s what she said…

82 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:12:32pm

re: #70 NukeAtomrod

I don’t get it!
Dick Cheney is a very compassionate man… Not a great shot,but very compassionate …

83 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:12:42pm

re: #48 Diego

The marketing of new drugs in Europe is tied to decisions on how to price them. European drug regulators don’t allow new medicines to reach patients until government negotiators have extracted a price they like from the drug companies.

American pharma can a) forego a huge market like France or Germany or b) come up with a ridiculous price that they accept and then pass the delta to American Insurance Co.’s and those who pay their premiums.

84 subsailor68  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:12:45pm

re: #77 Occasional Reader

3wood? Is that you?

/that’s a compliment, needless to say, subs! Nicely done.

Hi OR! Thanks so much, but trust me, when 3wood shows up I’m more than happy to have the coach bench me!

;-)

85 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:12:46pm

re: #72 Occasional Reader

The rest of the world should have to pay just as much to hear Britney Spears as we do!

(or something like that)

No, Diego’s tone give him away. He is against copyrights, trademarks, intellectual property rights, that sort of thing. The United States should just give everything away.

You know.

86 pat  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:12:58pm

re: #78 jcm

and the drugs this firm has developed has revolutionized areas of health care.

87 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:13:09pm

re: #76 buzzsawmonkey

I want to hear Diego explain. It appears he is one of those people who has a problem with copyright laws.

And what would you know about it… tool :)

88 MikeAlv77  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:13:33pm

re: #69 Occasional Reader

(Just to make it even more clear)

And also remember that other countries are a little “lax” in their enforcement of patents. Lots of drugs are made in countries like India who ignore the patent and then say.. “See, we have cheap drugs in our country..” but do not invest in the research to discover it to begin with.

89 Dreader1962  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:13:44pm

re: #68 karmic_inquisitor

There are many drugs that are used “off label” that save lives.

A common strategy for drug companies is to get approval for use on a pathology that is easy to demonstrate effectiveness against when the bigger market exists for another pathology that would take longer to get approval for.

So the maker will go through the approval process while simultaneously sponsoring university studies of the same molecule being used against other pathologies. When shown effective in such studies, many practitioners will go “off label” to use the drug against that other pathology.

This strategy has been vital to the development of oncology drugs that attack tumors by cutting off their blood supply.

Agreed - my mother would not have the quality of life she has today (and may not have had life at all) if she did not have prescriptions based upon ‘off label’ usage. Also, there was quite a period of time where her medications had to be constantly adjusted to get it right.

She’s on Medicare Part D, and when her coverage gap occurs her prescriptions cost over $1,000/month.

90 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:13:50pm

re: #73 pat

NPR finds out that Obama lied about his ambassadorial appointments.
[Link: hotair.com…]

NPR has been interesting lately. They’ve swung between fawning pro-Obama coverage, and startlingly frank reportage on some of the O’s failings. I give them credit for a certain amount of balance.

91 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:13:50pm

re: #80 MikeAlv77

Having works for a pharm company about 10 years ago in the drug discovery area I can tell you that the cost of finding a new drug and putting it on the market is ENORMOUS. 10+ years ago the price was in the $500 mil range or more. Its got to be $1 Billion or more now. If you regulate the company from charging what they need for a good return on the huge investment, they just won’t invest the money.

Of course I forget that turning a profit is evil…

How will socializing medicine affect research?

92 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:14:20pm
93 Eowyn2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:14:45pm

re: #11 reloadingisnotahobby

No shit!
It’s really expensive to manufacture methan…ah…ah…
…ah…Stuff..!

Have you looked at the price of rat poisen lately? With all the non fatal rodent traps, the price of the good stuff is really high. Damn Peta anyway

/

94 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:14:52pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices. It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it and but it is much more wrong when medications, which are required for people’s survival, are treated in this way.

How exactly are drug companies supposed to make a profit, which drives research and development if they aren’t allowed to recoup their research investments?

Did you know only a fraction of the compounds they study and research make it into drug form. Of that, only a fraction gets through the clinical tests and approved by the FDA? That takes time and money. Lots of money. Billions of dollars annually.

And all that while, the clock is rolling on their patent rights, which means that they often have only a few years to have exclusive production rights before generics can be made for the same compounds. And once the generics come in, the prices drop further and the drug companies have to hope that another drug in their pipeline gets approved to make up for the lost income and revenues that sustain the drug pipeline.

Sometimes, drug companies respond by new formulations or combination of drugs to improve efficiency. Or some get repurposed after new or different uses are found. Viagra was actually a pulmonary arterial hypertension drug, when a certain curious side effect became known. That’s when the drug really took off, and Pfizer turned the little blue pill into one of its biggest sellers - for erectile dysfunction.

Minoxidil is another drug that was originally meant to deal with high blood pressure when another curious side effect was uncovered. It turns out that it can regrow hair. Boom. Big seller.

But more often than not, drugs fall by the wayside as new drugs are found more capable. In some instances, however, the new drugs aren’t nearly as effective as old ones. It depends on the situation, but it takes time to figure out the effectiveness of drugs.

95 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:15:13pm

re: #90 Occasional Reader

May NPR report the truth, there are many where I live who believe anything they say is the truth.

96 debutaunt  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:15:17pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

Probably no bad unintended consequences would occur, eh?

97 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:15:23pm

re: #36 Ben Hur

Big Pharma isn’t the enemy.

Bush is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Cheney is the enemy.

Halliburton is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Investment banks.

The mortgage banks are the enemy.

No. Wait.

Big insurance is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Management of American car companies are the enemy.

No. Wait.

Big Tobacco is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Big Oil is the enemy.

No. Wait.

Big Coal is the enemy.

Who isn’t our enemy?

Our enemies.

Wow.

See how BIG this thread made my post!

AHAHAHAH!

98 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:15:41pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

The United States should just give everything away.

You know.

And of course, even if their denied a profit for doing so, pharma companies will continue pouring money into research, and musicians and artists will continue to produce, all in the name of selfless interest in the betterment of humanity. Kind of like on Star Trek: The Next Generation.

99 MikeAlv77  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:15:41pm

re: #91 MandyManners

How will socializing medicine affect research?

From the friends I have there, they are worried. If price controls go in, they are screwed… and then we are when the new drugs stop coming through the pipeline

100 Charpete67  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:15:44pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

No, Diego’s tone give him away. He is against copyrights, trademarks, intellectual property rights, that sort of thing. The United States should just give everything away.

You know.

…but if everyone gave everything away for free…then nothing would cost anything and there would be no need for money…cuz everything is free…I could just have things…I think I just cracked the code…//

101 KernelPanic  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:16:50pm

I worked in a cutting edge biotech company before starting my own consulting outfit. Big pharma may not be ‘evil’ as an entity but there are certainly distasteful parts of the business.

I witnessed firsthand discussion of how to price a new drug that my company had. It was the first genetically engineered recombinant product designed to replace a drug that previously had been derived from human blood products

Because the recombinant product we created was not from human sources it was the only one that could be 100% free of human bloodborne things like Hepatitis, prions etc. This was a real problem as people who had taken the human derived drugs had ocasionally managed to catch Hep C or other nasty things.

Anyway the discussion of how to price the new product was interesting and thought provoking from a moral perspective. When you are the sole source of an amazing new medicinal product the temptation to price highly is extreme, especially if you only have a few years left on your patent to recover the 10+ years of development costs.

The people I worked with did the right thing but it was an interesting time.

102 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:17:07pm

re: #97 Ben Hur

Wow.

See how BIG this thread made my post!

AHAHAHAH!

If it lasts longer than 4 hours… oh, you know the line.

103 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:17:32pm

re: #90 Occasional Reader

NPR has been interesting lately. They’ve swung between fawning pro-Obama coverage, and startlingly frank reportage on some of the O’s failings. I give them credit for a certain amount of balance.

Someone at NPR must have been expecting an appointment.

104 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:17:33pm

re: #93 Eowyn2

Ammo …UP!
Poison…UP !

Good dope…UP!
Can’t afford to kill anyone or forget about
them in a drug induce fog…SHIT!

105 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:17:36pm
106 debutaunt  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:17:46pm

re: #53 Occasional Reader

I want the moonbats to live by their word. They should use only pharcological products that are invented and manufactured by local non-profit artisan co-ops.

hahahahahahahahahahahaaa

107 FrogMarch  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:17:46pm

re: #94 lawhawk

Not enough up-dings in the world, my friend.

108 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:17:56pm

My grandmother was diagnosed in 2000 with a condition that, without medications, would have killed her within months. She lived seven years with medications.

I’m for: Not evil.

109 Jack Burton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:18:10pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

I don’t mean to sound like a dick about this but this is childish economic views that I could debunk in 3rd grade. This is an economic equivalent to Sheryl Crow’s foreign policy musings (“just don’t have enemies and there wont be war!”) about the Iraq War and GWoT.

Other countries force Pharmaceutical companies to sell their products at a loss via regulation or by blackmailing them with slanderous PR or threats of voiding patents. The companies have to make up these costs somehow. In the end that means, we get fucked and we are subsidizing the drug costs for the whole world (the whole while they bitch about us and call us right-wing troglodytes for charging too much and not having socialist health care). If we were to “regulate” the prices lower here, pharmaceutical companies could not only not make a profit (which means no new medications would ever be invented), they could not even stay in business.

110 KenJen  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:18:23pm

Thank goodness for Big Pharma. Without them I would not have my xanax. Panic attacks suck.

111 FrogMarch  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:18:40pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices. It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it and but it is much more wrong when medications, which are required for people’s survival, are treated in this way.

This comment makes me sad for our nation.

112 MikeAlv77  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:18:42pm

re: #101 KernelPanic

I worked in a cutting edge biotech company before starting my own consulting outfit. Big pharma may not be ‘evil’ as an entity but there are certainly distasteful parts of the business.

I witnessed firsthand discussion of how to price a new drug that my company had. It was the first genetically engineered recombinant product designed to replace a drug that previously had been derived from human blood products

Because the recombinant product we created was not from human sources it was the only one that could be 100% free of human bloodborne things like Hepatitis, prions etc. This was a real problem as people who had taken the human derived drugs had ocasionally managed to catch Hep C or other nasty things.

Anyway the discussion of how to price the new product was interesting and thought provoking from a moral perspective. When you are the sole source of an amazing new medicinal product the temptation to price highly is extreme, especially if you only have a few years left on your patent to recover the 10+ years of development costs.

The people I worked with did the right thing but it was an interesting time.

Thats the whole question. You have a responsibility to mankind but also a responsibility to recover your costs and priovide a return so that you can continues to discover new drugs. If they don’t then this miracle drug becomes the last drug the company makes.

113 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:18:45pm
114 Diego  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:18:51pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

No, Diego’s tone give him away. He is against copyrights, trademarks, intellectual property rights, that sort of thing. The United States should just give everything away.

You know.


Oh aye, anarchy for all!

Give it a break. You don’t know me and you don’t know what I think.

115 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:18:56pm

re: #83 Spenser (with an S)

The marketing of new drugs in Europe is tied to decisions on how to price them. European drug regulators don’t allow new medicines to reach patients until government negotiators have extracted a price they like from the drug companies.

American pharma can a) forego a huge market like France or Germany or b) come up with a ridiculous price that they accept and then pass the delta to American Insurance Co.’s and those who pay their premiums.

A single buyer is also a monopoly, just like a single seller, and should be considered an illegal restraint of trade.
What I’d do would be to add a tariff to such countries’ exports to the US, to go to a fund to purchace medicine for the countries that can’t afford it.
It turns out you cannot use fines and tariffs to directly aid the companies hurt by the restraint of trade, but this gives a way to help them by helping others.

Of course, if Obamacare passes, this will all be irrelevant, because the pharmaceutical companies won’t be able to make enough on new drugs to pay for the development.

116 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:19:27pm

re: #103 Ben Hur

Someone at NPR must have been expecting an appointment.

And since NPR had been critical of Hugo Chavez, that killed the plum “FCC Diversity Chief” slot possibility right there.

117 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:19:35pm
118 Dreader1962  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:19:48pm

re: #101 KernelPanic

I worked in a cutting edge biotech company before starting my own consulting outfit. Big pharma may not be ‘evil’ as an entity but there are certainly distasteful parts of the business.

…

The people I worked with did the right thing but it was an interesting time.

They did the ‘right’ thing, and medicine has this option. Picture no research and no drug or technology. Then there isn’t even a discussion whether to do the right thing or not.

119 SixDegrees  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:20:09pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

Uh - yes, if prices are regulated to be lower, then prices will…be lower.

Maybe.

The cost of compliance with regulation will also be passed along to consumers, of course. And if the costs of one particular product are regulated below the point where it is profitable, the costs of other products may be increased to make up for the difference.

Or, the product may simply be removed from the market.

And then there’s the question: where is the incentive to research, test and market anything new, since the government will intervene to make recovery of the costs associated with that effort questionable, at best. So while today’s imperfect statins, for instance, may suddenly be cheaper, there’s a much greater likelihood that tomorrow’s much improved cholesterol regulating drugs will simply never be produced, or even discovered.

Better plan: find a way to expose consumers to the true cost of drugs and treatments, instead of masking them behind insurance coverage and copays that severely distort consumer perception of the marketplace.

120 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:20:10pm

re: #113 buzzsawmonkey

You left out “sustainable.”

And green. And organic. Especially organic.

121 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:20:17pm

re: #90 Occasional Reader

NPR has been interesting lately. They’ve swung between fawning pro-Obama coverage, and startlingly frank reportage on some of the O’s failings. I give them credit for a certain amount of balance.

It makes me laugh though. Last week (or week before) they were reporting on projects by big newspapers to put some of the health care bills on line and ask their readers to pick through them and put together an analysis.

In interviews, reps from the papers were patting themselves on the back for their revolutionary thinking. I was laughing the whole time thinking that the blogosphere has already been doing it for years.

122 jcm  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:20:28pm

re: #86 pat

and the drugs this firm has developed has revolutionized areas of health care.

Most firms also have support for people who need the drugs but have no means to obtain them, they give the drugs to people who really need them.

123 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:20:53pm

re: #91 MandyManners

How will socializing medicine affect research?

There are many countries who buy drugs or set prices nationally (Canada, for example) who end up getting a free ride off of the American drug market.

If we adopt the same tact we won’t get the free ride. Nor will anyone else. The industry will go through a period of “sure thing” research where a hell of a lot of research will simply evaporate out of risk aversion.

It is a bit like fishing - you aren’t guaranteed to get a fish each time you fish, but when you do it is essentially free. Now imagine a fishing administrator who taxes any fish you catch at 50%. You end up with a lot fewer people fishing.

124 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:21:03pm

re: #110 KenJen

True dat!!
I have a friend that gets serious panic attacks!
W/out medication she would have hurt or killed herself or someone…
I’ve paniced before but it was totally justified!!

125 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:21:07pm

re: #114 Diego

Oh aye, anarchy for all!

Give it a break. You don’t know me and you don’t know what I think.

Okay. So far you think the following US industries should not be allowed to set their own prices for their own products:

-Pharma
-Music
-Film

Anyone else to add to the list?

126 reine.de.tout  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:21:26pm

re: #114 Diego

Oh aye, anarchy for all!

Give it a break. You don’t know me and you don’t know what I think.

We are interesting in hearing what you think. Please tell us. Then we don’t have to use a mere snippet of a comment and to draw conclusions.

127 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:21:32pm

This is part 8 in my “Dear Mr. President” series …

Dear Mr President … Try this strategy in Afghanistan vis-a-vis the poppy crop, big pharma, and the taliban …

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com…]

It would be a win/win/win for us and our allies.

128 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:21:44pm

re: #98 Occasional Reader

And of course, even if their denied a profit for doing so, pharma companies will continue pouring money into research, and musicians and artists will continue to produce, all in the name of selfless interest in the betterment of humanity. Kind of like on Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Star Trek my ass. I will recount a little story. My “step daughter’s” ex-boyfriend is totally against copyrights that last at least the life span of the author. He thinks, oh, 15 years is good enough and then it should be public domain for ever.

I sat down with him and had a copy of the book “I Never Promised You A Rose Garden” and a copy of my published play, based on the book, and I told him…

“I am good friends with the woman who wrote this book. She is 78 years old, and every time my play is put on, she get a little money from the production. So do I. And when she dies, her family (estate) will continue to get that money from me. And you girlfriend there, when I’m dead, will probably have part of the rights to this play, and the money that it generates. If you are still around 20 years from now and you DARE to give this work away in any sort of way, I’ll come back from the dead and break your neck”

That’s how I solved the intellectual property dispute.

129 reine.de.tout  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:22:38pm

re: #119 SixDegrees

Uh - yes, if prices are regulated to be lower, then prices will…be lower.

Maybe.

The cost of compliance with regulation will also be passed along to consumers, of course. And if the costs of one particular product are regulated below the point where it is profitable, the costs of other products may be increased to make up for the difference.

Or, the product may simply be removed from the market.

And then there’s the question: where is the incentive to research, test and market anything new, since the government will intervene to make recovery of the costs associated with that effort questionable, at best. So while today’s imperfect statins, for instance, may suddenly be cheaper, there’s a much greater likelihood that tomorrow’s much improved cholesterol regulating drugs will simply never be produced, or even discovered.

Better plan: find a way to expose consumers to the true cost of drugs and treatments, instead of masking them behind insurance coverage and copays that severely distort consumer perception of the marketplace.

My pharmacy puts the full cost of a prescription on the label - and then charges me my co-pay - but I am well aware of what the real cost of my prescriptions is.

130 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:22:45pm
131 Gus  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:22:53pm

Looks like this was related to a whistleblower lawsuit:

Pfizer whistleblower’s ordeal reaps big rewards

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Taking on corporate giants can feel like tilting at windmills, but John Kopchinski’s six-year legal battle against Pfizer Inc (PFE.N) just made him a rich man.

The Gulf War veteran and former Pfizer sales representative will earn more than $51.5 million as a result of his whistleblower lawsuit against the world’s biggest drugmaker and the record penalty the company must pay the U.S. government for its massive marketing transgressions.

SNIP

Kopchinski, appalled by Pfizer’s tactics in selling the pain drug Bextra, filed a “qui tam” lawsuit in 2003, sparking federal and state probes that led to Wednesday’s agreement by the company to pay $2.3 billion in civil and criminal penalties and plead guilty to a felony charge for promoting Bextra and 12 other drugs for unapproved uses and doses.

“In the Army I was expected to protect people at all costs,” Kopchinski said in a statement. “At Pfizer I was expected to increase profits at all costs, even when sales meant endangering lives.

“I couldn’t do that,” added Kopchinski, 45, who was fired by Pfizer in March of 2003, two years before the company pulled Bextra from the market over concerns it raised the risk of heart attacks and strokes.

At the time of his dismissal after raising his concerns with the company, Kopchinski had a baby son and his wife was pregnant with twins. He went from earning about $125,000 a year to living off his retirement fund before landing a job with an insurance company for $40,000 a year.

“It was a lot of stress on the family. I pretty much depleted my entire 401(k),” he said.

SNIP

132 KenJen  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:23:03pm

re: #114 Diego

Oh aye, anarchy for all!

Give it a break. You don’t know me and you don’t know what I think.

You left off “nanny nanny boo boo” and “I’m gonna tell my mom on you” from end of that comment.

133 John Neverbend  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:23:05pm

re: #50 NukeAtomrod

Don’t you think you’re being a bit hard on them?

I’m proud to be part of this seminal discussion.

134 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:23:14pm

re: #125 Occasional Reader

Okay. So far you think the following US industries should not be allowed to set their own prices for their own products:

-Pharma
-Music
-Film

Anyone else to add to the list?

ATTORNEYS!

135 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:23:18pm

re: #94 lawhawk

On the problem of patents, I still think that the clock shouldn’t start for anything that requires government approval, until such approval is granted.
The problem with this is that it goes against various patent treaties, and different governments would approve it at different times. But it would give the manufacturers a fair amount of time to make their investment back, and that time couldn’t be affected by regulators who drag their feet.
It might also help in having proper testing, because there would no longer be an incentive to rush the testing to have more years of exclusivity.

136 MikeAlv77  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:23:22pm

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

So you said a “zombie” will come hurt him…

or maybe a better description.. a wraith…

137 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:24:25pm

re: #134 MandyManners

Not even in jest, Mandy. Not even in jest.

//

138 acwgusa  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:24:27pm

You can’t have artificially set prices on anything without someone else paying the actual costs. California for example, still hasn’t learned that lesson.

139 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:24:28pm

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

Could it be he’s her ex because you scare the shit of him??
LOL !Well done Walter!

140 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:24:41pm

re: #114 Diego

Oh aye, anarchy for all!

Give it a break. You don’t know me and you don’t know what I think.

I certainly do, unless you tell me otherwise, which you haven’t as of yet. I know what you said above. Well then, you brought up the “concepts” in your comment, you have been asked questions from many people about your comment, we have yet to see an answer.

141 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:24:49pm

re: #129 reine.de.tout

My pharmacy puts the full cost of a prescription on the label - and then charges me my co-pay - but I am well aware of what the real cost of my prescriptions is.

Under my insurance plan, I pay the full charged cost and then am reimbursed. It is actually a savings over my old plan, but i can tell you that I was a little hesitant about the 4 X-rays I had today and the MRI I have scheduled for tomorrow.

142 Diego  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:24:56pm

You know what? I can’t be bothered. Just go ahead and write for me, you’re doing a great job of it so far, twisting what I say to your own ends. You hardly need my help. Have a good conversation with yourself.

143 KenJen  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:25:09pm

re: #124 reloadingisnotahobby

True dat!!
I have a friend that gets serious panic attacks!
W/out medication she would have hurt or killed herself or someone…
I’ve paniced before but it was totally justified!!

At first I thought I was having a heart attack. Wanted to be taken to the hospital. I’m controling them much better now. I have xanax just in case.

144 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:25:45pm

re: #137 Occasional Reader

Not even in jest, Mandy. Not even in jest.

//

Didja’ jump?

145 Izzyboy  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:25:49pm

I’m kinda reading this as “it’s not so bad because pharm companies need to make money”. My gut tells I’m wrong but I can’t see it.

146 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:00pm
147 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:03pm

IMHO, we should be treating the pharmaceutical industry as a national treasure, rather than as a political whipping boy. How many cases of cancer have politicians ever cured?

The FDA approval process is so slow that most drugs have only a few years of patent protection remaining when they actually get to market. If patent protection stated at the time of approval, I think it would result in substantially lower drug prices. More time to amortize the R&D costs.

As for fining a company for off-label use, that’s been a common practice for a long time, and has been the source of much innovation.

148 Dreader1962  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:09pm

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

” If you are still around 20 years from now and you DARE to give this work away in any sort of way, I’ll come back from the dead and break your neck”

That’s how I solved the intellectual property dispute.

I can just picture you, shambling towards him, whispering, “Intellectual property… Intellectual property…” before dining on his brains.

149 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:18pm

re: #142 Diego

You know what? I can’t be bothered. Just go ahead and write for me, you’re doing a great job of it so far, twisting what I say to your own ends. You hardly need my help. Have a good conversation with yourself.

A flounce?

150 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:22pm

re: #137 Occasional Reader

So what have got when ya have an attorney up
to his neck in Cement??

151 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:45pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices. It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it and but it is much more wrong when medications, which are required for people’s survival, are treated in this way.

So if I own a restaurant in the swanky part of town and charge (and get) $25 for a hamburg plate and across town another restaurant in a less swanky section charges (and gets) only $10 for the same hamburg meal I should lower my price to $10. After all, food is required for peoples survival!

152 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:46pm

Not enough cement!!
LOL
Just teasin…

153 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:50pm

re: #142 Diego

You know what? I can’t be bothered. Just go ahead and write for me, you’re doing a great job of it so far, twisting what I say to your own ends. You hardly need my help. Have a good conversation with yourself.

That’s a chickenshit way out, Diego. You should defend your comments and allegations as we all do here.

154 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:26:55pm

re: #143 KenJen

At first I thought I was having a heart attack. Wanted to be taken to the hospital. I’m controling them much better now. I have xanax just in case.

Same here. Do you do breathing exercises?

155 Eowyn2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:27:02pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge the customers more than other countries simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices. It’s wrong when the music and movie industries do it and but it is much more wrong when medications, which are required for people’s survival, are treated in this way.

Have you ever run or owned a business? Have you ever dealt with a foreign government agency?

Here’s how it works.
Bids are taken.
Government accepts product from US pharmaceutical company for product at Chinese pharmaceutical company bid price. Pharmaceutical company doesn’t really want to sell it at that price but the only other option is to not sell it. Reverse engineered drugs are quite common once out of US (or German) control.

Drug company then writes off the loss to the UN or whatever charity organization it needs to.

This has nothing to do with the US Citizens being perceived as being more weathy than than others. US and other Western citizens are also more likely to sign on to a class action lawsuit.
Now tell me - -How do you feel about tort reform?

156 Dreader1962  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:27:07pm

re: #142 Diego

You know what? I can’t be bothered. Just go ahead and write for me, you’re doing a great job of it so far, twisting what I say to your own ends. You hardly need my help. Have a good conversation with yourself.

Awww - we’ve hurt his feelings!

Not the first time - won’t be the last!

157 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:27:52pm

re: #139 reloadingisnotahobby

Could it be he’s her ex because you scare the shit of him?? LOL !Well done Walter!

No, actually they broke up the next day, but it was planned, I had nothing to do with it, and that wasn’t my intent. I’ve had this debate with him in the past, and the basic outcome was, I won’t resepect any copyrights.

Since the time I had the first debate with him, and now that I am part of the whole family, I decided to make a final stand on the subject, since he was not open to any other solution other than he’ll take what he wants.

It was my way of saying he better not even go there.

158 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:27:56pm

re: #146 buzzsawmonkey

I like to point out that if you go into the wilderness and hack a new farm out of the virgin forest, it belongs to you, your children, and their children—forever, as long as they don’t lose it on a mortgage.

But if you go into the wilderness of the mind and come up with something new, you and your children—and their children—only have your life plus 70 years to make any living from it—after which it belongs to everyone.

On the one hand, yes, on the other hand, your children have to keep working the farm, or it becomes wilderness again.

I think the patent system is one reason we have come so far so fast. It became worthwhile to try to invent something new.

159 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:28:28pm

re: #154 MandyManners

Same here. Do you do breathing exercises?

Oops. I have Valium, not Xanax.

160 Spider Mensch  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:28:44pm

re: #142 Diego

You know what? I can’t be bothered. Just go ahead and write for me, you’re doing a great job of it so far, twisting what I say to your own ends. You hardly need my help. Have a good conversation with yourself.

you dropped your corn dog in the sand…You want me to get mommy to buy you another one? will that make it ok snookums ?

161 FrogMarch  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:28:51pm

Government insurance for health care — the public option — is an inappropriate cure that the American body politic is rejecting.

Canadians spend 10 percent of annual GDP on health care, while Americans spend 16 percent. However, Canadians experience long waiting lists for diagnosis and treatment, rationed care, and limited access to doctors and new medical devices.

You can get private medical care in Canada — if you are a pet and your doctor is a vet. Otherwise, tens of thousands of Canadians flock to the United States each year for private care to reduce pain or to save their lives. Famously, Liberal MP Belinda Stronach advocated for government health care but then traveled to California herself for private breast cancer surgery.


…

162 MikeAlv77  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:28:51pm

re: #154 MandyManners

Same here. Do you do breathing exercises?

My wife has anxiety attacks. She uses accupuncture and it really helps her. That and a little clorazapam (sp) to help when it gets REAL bad… (like after visiting her parents who are nuking futs… )

163 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:28:54pm

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

No, actually they broke up the next day, but it was planned, I had nothing to do with it, and that wasn’t my intent. I’ve had this debate with him in the past, and the basic outcome was, I won’t resepect any copyrights.

Since the time I had the first debate with him, and now that I am part of the whole family, I decided to make a final stand on the subject, since he was not open to any other solution other than he’ll take what he wants.

It was my way of saying he better not even go there.


Hmmm. No respect for boundaries. Takes what he wants. Expects to be given things for free.

She escaped.

164 reine.de.tout  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:28:56pm

re: #142 Diego

You know what? I can’t be bothered. Just go ahead and write for me, you’re doing a great job of it so far, twisting what I say to your own ends. You hardly need my help. Have a good conversation with yourself.

Diego -
I asked you a question.
And several here have invited you to tell us what you think.

Instead of saying you “can’t be bothered”, just clearly tell us what you think, and then no one has to try to draw conclusions from your posted sentences.

You are being urged and encouraged to participate; but you keep running away.

165 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:29:39pm

re: #142 Diego

You know what? I can’t be bothered. Just go ahead and write for me, you’re doing a great job of it so far, twisting what I say to your own ends. You hardly need my help. Have a good conversation with yourself.

Flounce… I saw it… Diego just flounced… nah, nah, nah… a rare Diego flounce…

166 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:29:42pm

re: #147 Son of the Black Dog

IMHO, we should be treating the pharmaceutical industry as a national treasure, rather than as a political whipping boy. How many cases of cancer have politicians ever cured?

The FDA approval process is so slow that most drugs have only a few years of patent protection remaining when they actually get to market. If patent protection stated at the time of approval, I think it would result in substantially lower drug prices. More time to amortize the R&D costs.

As for fining a company for off-label use, that’s been a common practice for a long time, and has been the source of much innovation.

It’s a double edged sword. The process was streamlined, but that too caused problems, and several recent drugs had to be recalled because they caused serious side effects. There’s no one-size fits all approach to drug regulation because of the timespans involved in testing and the uses for various medications.

Some are meant for regular ongoing use, while others require short term dosing. Sometimes side effects aren’t knowable unless you’re getting long term use, while others involve higher dosages. You have to test for them.

As for adjusting patent protections, I don’t see it happening with the current Administration, which seems to oppose such steps on ideological grounds.

Off-label use is indeed where some innovation takes place, but the risks of side-effects and trouble mount when you can’t know what the possible effects will be on the downside - which goes back to my first point.

167 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:30:02pm

re: #162 MikeAlv77

My wife has anxiety attacks. She uses accupuncture and it really helps her. That and a little clorazapam (sp) to help when it gets REAL bad… (like after visiting her parents who are nuking futs… )

I thought about acupuncture but, it’s a little removed for me compared to the breathing.

168 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:30:03pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

And the drug that’s going to cure your child’s cancer isn’t going to be invented.

169 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:30:24pm

re: #163 EmmmieG

Hmmm. No respect for boundaries. Takes what he wants. Expects to be given things for free.

She escaped.

Massive bullet dodged.

170 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:30:26pm

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

Flounce… I saw it… Diego just flounced… nah, nah, nah… a rare Diego flounce…

/Is this thread going to move on SAN(s) Diego?

171 KenJen  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:30:34pm

re: #154 MandyManners

Same here. Do you do breathing exercises?

Yes. Walking the dogs also helps me. The worst thing is that I cant figure out what triggers the attack. My life is pretty stress free. Not married. No kids. Nice boyfriend.

172 debutaunt  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:30:39pm

re: #114 Diego

Oh aye, anarchy for all!

Give it a break. You don’t know me and you don’t know what I think.

Is it any different from what you write here?

173 Eowyn2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:30:58pm

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

If you can’t cure it with melamine, you don’t need to be cured.

/China off


that would be some syndrome.

174 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:31:02pm

re: #162 MikeAlv77

So it’s hereditary??
I’ve people that have that effect on me…

175 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:31:07pm
176 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:31:49pm

re: #171 KenJen

Yes. Walking the dogs also helps me. The worst thing is that I cant figure out what triggers the attack. My life is pretty stress free. Not married. No kids. Nice boyfriend.

Mine’s from PTSD. If I have a flash-back, the panic attack begins.

177 kcladderman  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:31:51pm

re: #143 KenJen

At first I thought I was having a heart attack. Wanted to be taken to the hospital. I’m controling them much better now. I have xanax just in case.

they truly suck. took me a couple of years to bring mine under control, very scary to go through when you don’t know what is happening to you.

178 ~Fianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:32:15pm

re: #19 Walter L. Newton

Well, this is good, and it should exonerate Obama of working secretly with Big Pharma. And for a while I thought Obama was letting the progressives down and going against all his promises of not making any deals with Big Bad Pharma. Now we can relax.
/

Actually, it’s not this administration that was working with Pfizer. The blog post linked above doesn’t give quite the whole story.

First, this is the 3rd time Pfizer has been involved in this sort of litigation.
Second, some of that money is going to individual plaintiffs who were suing because of harm caused by Bextra.
Third, Pfizer created marketing materials and paid doctors to promote these off label uses without clearly defining them as being off-label - one reason why they don’t go after the doctors for this is that a large portion of continuing education for practicing doctors on new drugs and treatments come from conferences and materials provided and paid for by drug makers. The doctor may not know that they’re writing an off-label scrip.
Fourth, in order to settle similar allegations before, Pfizer entered in to an agreement [PDF file] with the DOJ in 2002 in which they agreed to crack down on these exact behaviors - which they obviously didn’t adhere to.

Big Pharma isn’t evil - but it is concerned about its bottom line over anything else. That’s how mega corporations operate and unfortunately one of the characteristics of a corporation is the many levels of insulation between a decision and the people it effects, which can create something like a mob mentality - I’m just a cog in the wheel, I’m not responsible; it’s for the good of the shareholders/the division; someone in legal can worry about whether this is right or lawful, that’s what they do, right?

179 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:32:24pm

re: #173 Eowyn2

that would be some syndrome.

We’ve already seen one melt-down today.

180 FrogMarch  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:32:46pm
So many industries, so little time — that might be the Democrats’ motto. By demonizing the drugmakers, Waxman and his allies in Congress hope to convince you they’re doing something about rampant cost increases in Medicare.

They’re right that Medicare costs have risen rapidly. Indeed, since 1970 Medicare’s costs have risen 34% faster per patient than overall medical costs.

To us, that’s just another reason for not trusting our medical system to the government in the first place.

But that hasn’t stopped Waxman, who heads the House Energy and Commerce Committee and is widely seen as the most influential player in health care overhaul in the House.

Waxman’s proposal to go after drugmakers to trim Medicare costs is wrong on many levels. For one, it’ll shift costs onto those with private insurance. For another, it’ll make all of us less healthy by forcing drugmakers to abandon or delay development of new drugs.

181 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:32:59pm

re: #175 buzzsawmonkey

Even if the farm becomes wilderness again, the children’s children’s children still own the land, and can later, if they wish, sell it to a developer or logging concern.

The copyright vanishes after a certain time, whether it’s being marketed or not. Intellectual property rights are the only property rights enshrined in the Constitution—yet they are also the only ones which have an expiration date.

What if you are dumb as a stump? I mean a scan of your brain shows only a bump here or there kind of dumb? Do you still have Intellectual property rights?/

182 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:33:19pm

re: #163 EmmmieG

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

My wifes son is just like that!!!
…I never locked my shop till he moved back to town…
If it’s on his mommys property he can take it…
No HE CAN’T!!
He’s an idiot!

183 SixDegrees  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:33:27pm

re: #141 Creeping Eruption

Under my insurance plan, I pay the full charged cost and then am reimbursed. It is actually a savings over my old plan, but i can tell you that I was a little hesitant about the 4 X-rays I had today and the MRI I have scheduled for tomorrow.

That’s an interesting approach. So you’re exposed to the brunt of the full cost, but get reimbursed after you’re gone through that pain.

I bet that causes a lot of carping and questioning of costs. Exactly what’s needed, in my opinion.

184 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:33:43pm
185 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:33:48pm

re: #179 MandyManners

We’ve already seen one melt-down today.

Do tell ,, who/what/where

Inquiring minds need to know!

186 jcm  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:33:57pm

re: #125 Occasional Reader

Okay. So far you think the following US industries should not be allowed to set their own prices for their own products:

-Pharma
-Music
-Film

Anyone else to add to the list?

It much easier than that.

Make PROFIT illegal!

187 MikeAlv77  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:33:57pm

re: #171 KenJen

Yes. Walking the dogs also helps me. The worst thing is that I cant figure out what triggers the attack. My life is pretty stress free. Not married. No kids. Nice boyfriend.

My wife is the same way. no kids but she’s married. works part-time. I try to pull things off her but her parents are a big issue. Her mom is nuts (really is, on medication, etc…) and her dad is in denial. (and not the river in Egypt)

(I don’t think she has a boyfriend… )

188 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:34:25pm

re: #23 Diego

It is wrong to charge tax the customers citizens more than other countries communities simply because they perceive us as being able to afford higher prices taxes. It’s wrong when the music counties and movie industries states do it and but it is much more wrong when medications income, which are is required for people’s a families survival basic needs, are treated in this way.

How’s that work for ya?

189 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:34:42pm

re: #179 MandyManners

We’ve already seen one melt-down today.

Melt down??
Is that what I stepped in…?

190 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:34:45pm

Intellectual property “rights” in Western countries are unfair, anyway, because all of this stuff was actually stolen from the Muslim world!

191 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:35:20pm

re: #188 DaddyG

How’s that work for ya?

I like it ,, see 151 please

192 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:35:24pm

re: #185 sattv4u2

Do tell ,, who/what/where

Inquiring minds need to know!

Diego flounced.

193 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:35:45pm

OT: Socialists eated mah fingas!

194 KenJen  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:35:46pm

re: #176 MandyManners

Mine’s from PTSD. If I have a flash-back, the panic attack begins.

You were in a car wreck right? This will seem minor then. I sliced my finger open with a box cutter at work early this year. had to get 8 stiches. It was pretty gruesome. I seemed to start getting attacks after that. Related? I don’t know.

195 ~Fianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:35:52pm

re: #101 KernelPanic


Anyway the discussion of how to price the new product was interesting and thought provoking from a moral perspective. When you are the sole source of an amazing new medicinal product the temptation to price highly is extreme, especially if you only have a few years left on your patent to recover the 10+ years of development costs.

The people I worked with did the right thing but it was an interesting time.

This is why I prefer to support small business over mega corporations. I think that it’s easier for a smaller business to make human decisions because people who are actually doing the research and have the “noble motivation” and commitment are more likely to be involved in the process, instead of merely turning a wonderful thing over to the accountants and marketers.

Also, small business people in any industry are more likely to live and work in the community they operate in. Therefore it’s not just about a bottom line or a profit margin. Joe’s Restaurant doesn’t support the local little league because they get a tax write-off for doing so… they’ll support it because their kid or nephew plays on the team and the coach is his buddy.

196 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:35:53pm

re: #171 KenJen

Yes. Walking the dogs also helps me. The worst thing is that I cant figure out what triggers the attack. My life is pretty stress free. Not married. No kids. Nice boyfriend.

By any chance, are you the head of a New Jersey Mafia family?

(I’ve heard they’re prone to panic attacks. Saw one on t.v., anyway.)

197 jcm  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:35:55pm

re: #190 Occasional Reader

Intellectual property “rights” in Western countries are unfair, anyway, because all of this stuff was actually stolen from the Muslim world!

Pr0n was a muslim invention? The things I learn on LFG!

198 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:36:01pm
199 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:36:02pm

re: #189 reloadingisnotahobby

Melt down??
Is that what I stepped in…?

Is it super sitcky?

200 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:36:08pm

re: #187 MikeAlv77
LOL My wife is the same… She’s married…LOL
Stop it!

201 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:36:17pm

re: #192 MandyManners

Diego flounced.

Oh ,, just a while ago,, I saw that. I thought it was in bed!

//

202 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:36:54pm

re: #183 SixDegrees

That’s an interesting approach. So you’re exposed to the brunt of the full cost, but get reimbursed after you’re gone through that pain.

I bet that causes a lot of carping and questioning of costs. Exactly what’s needed, in my opinion.

Not really. My doctor told me I needed an MRI because he needs to see if I need surgery. I am going to get an MRI. It is not as if I am going to barter with the MRI tech to see if I can get a better deal.

All it really has shown me, if how expensive this really is.

203 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:36:54pm

re: #147 Son of the Black Dog

…

As for fining a company for off-label use, that’s been a common practice for a long time, and has been the source of much innovation.

And the FDA has been trying to get rid of all off-label us for years. Only FDA approved uses. That is, no innovation allowed by the government bureaucrats.

204 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:36:58pm

re: #171 KenJen

Yes. Walking the dogs also helps me. The worst thing is that I cant figure out what triggers the attack. My life is pretty stress free. Not married. No kids. Nice boyfriend.


Don’t discount chemical and genetic issues. I thought I was crazy until I found out that my wonky heart valve could cause exhaustion and depression symptoms. Giving up caffiene, decongestants and taking a mild anti-depressant helps me a great deal.

My doc says that 3 our of 4 people suffer depression and the fourth is in denial. (tongue in cheek)

205 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:37:02pm

re: #192 MandyManners

Diego flounced.

What a freaking wuss.

206 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:37:11pm

re: #178 ~Fianna

Actually, it’s not this administration that was working with Pfizer. The blog post linked above doesn’t give quite the whole story.

First, this is the 3rd time Pfizer has been involved in this sort of litigation.
Second, some of that money is going to individual plaintiffs who were suing because of harm caused by Bextra.
Third, Pfizer created marketing materials and paid doctors to promote these off label uses without clearly defining them as being off-label - one reason why they don’t go after the doctors for this is that a large portion of continuing education for practicing doctors on new drugs and treatments come from conferences and materials provided and paid for by drug makers. The doctor may not know that they’re writing an off-label scrip.
Fourth, in order to settle similar allegations before, Pfizer entered in to an agreement [PDF file] with the DOJ in 2002 in which they agreed to crack down on these exact behaviors - which they obviously didn’t adhere to.

Big Pharma isn’t evil - but it is concerned about its bottom line over anything else. That’s how mega corporations operate and unfortunately one of the characteristics of a corporation is the many levels of insulation between a decision and the people it effects, which can create something like a mob mentality - I’m just a cog in the wheel, I’m not responsible; it’s for the good of the shareholders/the division; someone in legal can worry about whether this is right or lawful, that’s what they do, right?

I was making a sarcastic comment. I was imagining a make-believe situation (maybe). Big Pharma is not the bad boys, Obama was making secret deals with them, see, Obama is doing good, dealing with Big Good Pharma, not Big Bad Pharma.

Just some vague humor.

207 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:37:19pm

re: #125 Occasional Reader

Okay. So far you think the following US industries should not be allowed to set their own prices for their own products:

-Pharma
-Music
-Film

Anyone else to add to the list?



PROSTITUTES!

208 Dianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:37:39pm

All I can say is that without pharmaceuticals, insomnia would be even worse than it currently is.

Oh, and depression.

Oh, and bi-polar.

Oh, and asthma.

Oh, and HIV.

That’s just off the top of my head.

209 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:01pm

re: #175 buzzsawmonkey

Even if the farm becomes wilderness again, the children’s children’s children still own the land, and can later, if they wish, sell it to a developer or logging concern.

The copyright vanishes after a certain time, whether it’s being marketed or not. Intellectual property rights are the only property rights enshrined in the Constitution—yet they are also the only ones which have an expiration date.

That’s a very interesting question, which I go back and forth on. I suppose that in a normal world, in the course of time, the worth of say, Shakespeare’s works would be diluted among all of his descendants.*

I’m just anti-aristocratic enough that I cringe at the idea of somebody getting money for something for life without every doing anything. That creates Paris Hiltons, and we have enough of those.

*Did you know that neither Laura Ingalls Wilder nor her parents have any living biological descendants? Just a side note.

210 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:03pm

re: #194 KenJen

You were in a car wreck right? This will seem minor then. I sliced my finger open with a box cutter at work early this year. had to get 8 stiches. It was pretty gruesome. I seemed to start getting attacks after that. Related? I don’t know.

If so, all your meds etc should be covered under Work comp.

211 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:03pm

re: #199 MandyManners

Much sticky…Is that bad…or worse than bad!

212 KenJen  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:08pm

re: #196 Occasional Reader

By any chance, are you the head of a New Jersey Mafia family?

(I’ve heard they’re prone to panic attacks. Saw one on t.v., anyway.)

If I tell ya, I’ll hafta kill ya.

213 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:10pm

re: #198 buzzsawmonkey

but it usually does everything it can to undermine the laws which protect the artist’s means of making a living on his or her own.

That last bit is an important qualifier, of course. Because they usually ARE in favor of “artists” beign lavishly paid for (e.g.) covering religious icons with excrement… by the taxpayers.

214 Dianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:17pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

OT: Socialists eated mah fingas!

Wasn’t there a whole thread about that?!

215 SFGoth  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:19pm

re: #47 Ben Hur

It self cleans.
And bongs are just so provincial.
I’m a J man myself.
With a little Tobacco.

Ugh, the Euro way. In Amsterdam, they can immediately spot you as either an Ami, a Canuck, or an Aussie if you smoke 100% cannabis. BTW, is anyone else shocked at the price of good vaporizers? We need a government investigation, now!

216 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:28pm

re: #194 KenJen

You were in a car wreck right? This will seem minor then. I sliced my finger open with a box cutter at work early this year. had to get 8 stiches. It was pretty gruesome. I seemed to start getting attacks after that. Related? I don’t know.

It might go back to something way, way in your past that the slicing revisited.

Mine from the wreck is still around but the flash-back memory has been brought to the fore-front. The PTSD from the rape, however, is still with me because I cannot recall the memory that causes the flash-back. Tough nut to crack.

217 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:28pm

Took me a bit longer to get home today.

Damn, you people have been busy.

218 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:30pm
219 Eowyn2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:31pm

re: #136 MikeAlv77

So you said a “zombie” will come hurt him…

or maybe a better description.. a wraith…


“wraithtime” does not have the same panache as “zombietime”
wraiths will ever be associated with Rings.

220 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:44pm

re: #198 buzzsawmonkey

Copyrights are an excellent litmus test for finding out whether someone is conservative or not. Conservatives, as a rule, respect the concept of property rights; lefties do not.

The Left loves to vote for “support for the arts,” but it usually does everything it can to undermine the laws which protect the artist’s means of making a living on his or her own.

Artists, unfortunately, haven’t quite tumbled to this yet.

Present company excluded. Right?

221 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:38:47pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours would come down.

Clinton.

Flu vaccines.

222 jcm  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:39:16pm

re: #198 buzzsawmonkey

Copyrights are an excellent litmus test for finding out whether someone is conservative or not. Conservatives, as a rule, respect the concept of property rights; lefties do not.

The Left loves to vote for “support for the arts,” but it usually does everything it can to undermine the laws which protect the artist’s means of making a living on his or her own.

Artists, unfortunately, haven’t quite tumbled to this yet.

Basic understanding of Life, Liberty, Property.

Property is the product of an individual using life and liberty to produce something. Understanding fundamentally there is no difference between producing an object, or an idea.

223 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:39:18pm

re: #212 KenJen

If I tell ya, I’ll hafta kill ya.

Sorry, I meant… olive oil import business. Yeah, that’s it.

224 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:40:06pm

re: #34 coquimbojoe

I work (sell) for ‘Big Orthopedics’. There is good and bad behavior everywhere. Most doctors strive to do their best for their patients and most reps strive to be within the law and do whats right. I have seen everything. I would say medical companies are far more benevolent than they are made to seem.

I need an Arizona brace, but I can’t afford the deductible on my insurance policy.

225 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:40:08pm

Irish Rose, you still here? I’ve got the answer to the bouzouki player question down near the end of the last thread.

226 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:40:19pm

re: #218 buzzsawmonkey

I gots my leeches, my lancets, and my laudanum. What do I need pharmaceuticals for?

Did you buy that stuff at Leeches, Lancets, & Beyond?

227 SixDegrees  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:40:21pm

re: #202 Creeping Eruption

Not really. My doctor told me I needed an MRI because he needs to see if I need surgery. I am going to get an MRI. It is not as if I am going to barter with the MRI tech to see if I can get a better deal.

All it really has shown me, if how expensive this really is.

It may not work for a procedure like an MRI, but for drug prescriptions, especially where there are several alternatives available, it might be useful.

228 Dianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:40:47pm

re: #209 EmmmieG

The Ingalls had what, four daughters? No biological descendants?

Wow!

229 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:41:00pm

re: #217 SasquatchOnSteroids

What were we supposed to be doing while
WAITING FOR YOU!!
Better not have forgot the beer!!

230 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:41:20pm

re: #226 Occasional Reader

Did you buy that stuff at Leeches, Lancets, & Beyond?

Well, he was getting them at Liniments n’Things, until they went out of business.

231 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:41:34pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

OT: Socialists eated mah fingas!

Yeah ,, here;s the thing about that (I had to leave just when that thread started)
A) if you were going to a protest, would you walk right thru the opposite protesters just to get to you side of the street?
B) if you decided to do that, would you then announce that you were in opposition? I mean, nobody knows what side your on
C) till you open your mouth and tell what side your on@!
Which leads to
D) It may have been 100% wrong for the person (anti-reformer) to punch the guy. However if he felt in danger he could defend himself (and in danger meanu=ing was he assaulted 1st,, I’m sure eyewitness accounts will vary but I’ll bet there was a lot of nose to nose yelling, finger pointing and chest bumping which does constitute assualt (or battery, I get the two mixed up)

E) it was 100% wrong for the other fellow to BITE OFF A FINGER!

232 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:42:21pm
233 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:42:25pm

Here is a earnings conference call transcript for Onyx Pharmaceuticals - a maker of a drug that fights cancer by starving tumors of blood.

They discuss off label sales quite casually.

[Link: www.bnet.com…]

There is nothing wrong, evil or unethical about doctors treating patients off label when everyone is informed of the risks.

234 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:42:25pm

re: #151 sattv4u2

So if I own a restaurant in the swanky part of town and charge (and get) $25 for a hamburg plate and across town another restaurant in a less swanky section charges (and gets) only $10 for the same hamburg meal I should lower my price to $10. After all, food is required for peoples survival!

Get the Wendy’s orental chicken nuggets and you won’t have to pay for all that bling! /

235 ~Fianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:42:43pm

re: #202 Creeping Eruption

Not really. My doctor told me I needed an MRI because he needs to see if I need surgery. I am going to get an MRI. It is not as if I am going to barter with the MRI tech to see if I can get a better deal.

All it really has shown me, if how expensive this really is.

Now imagine not getting reimbursed. I make pretty good money, but I couldn’t pay out of pocket for that and it’s probably still not expensive enough to qualify for the tax write-off.

236 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:42:53pm

re: #214 Dianna

“Finger food”

237 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:43:05pm

re: #229 reloadingisnotahobby

What were we supposed to be doing while
WAITING FOR YOU!!
Better not have forgot the beer!!

Of course not. I wanted some play on the finger thread.
I would’ve had ‘em attach it to my middle finger. Extra long, no confusion.

/slides you a Pabst. Keep those in case company shows up. :-)

238 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:43:11pm

re: #215 SFGoth

Ugh, the Euro way. In Amsterdam, they can immediately spot you as either an Ami, a Canuck, or an Aussie if you smoke 100% cannabis. BTW, is anyone else shocked at the price of good vaporizers? We need a government investigation, now!

Never used a vaporizer.

Truth be told I only learned about them about 6 months ago when I watched “Super High Me.”

Highly recommended documentary.

“Highly.”

Heh.

*cough cough*

Sorry.

here.

239 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:43:13pm

re: #227 SixDegrees

It may not work for a procedure like an MRI, but for drug prescriptions, especially where there are several alternatives available, it might be useful.

True for drugs. my company also lets me know when cheaper alternatives are on the market.

240 KenJen  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:43:20pm

re: #210 Creeping Eruption

If so, all your meds etc should be covered under Work comp.

That’s what I thought, but the immediate care place I went to listed the panic attack as a sinus infection. Crazy I know.

241 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:43:25pm

re: #231 sattv4u2
I would never punch some one in the face!!
That’s what baseball bats are for!
Damn!
///

242 subsailor68  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:43:39pm

re: #213 Occasional Reader

That last bit is an important qualifier, of course. Because they usually ARE in favor of “artists” beign lavishly paid for (e.g.) covering religious icons with excrement… by the taxpayers.

Great point OR. Here’s a thought - IIRC most of the greatest painters of the Renaissance had patrons (e.g. private investors who thought the artist was worth underwriting). Of course, most of the time, the patron ended up as a figure in the work - like a merchant being depicted as one of the Magi or something.

Hmmm… maybe we could convince Rosie O’Donnell to become a patron of Robert Mapplethorpe.

243 saberry0530  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:44:05pm

re: #230 lawhawk

Well, he was getting them at Liniments n’Things, until they went out of business.

Castor Oil and Witch Hazel for every thing that ails one.

244 J.D.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:44:13pm

re: #36 Ben Hur

You’ve overlooked Karl Rove!

245 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:44:17pm

re: #241 reloadingisnotahobby

I would never punch some one in the face!!
That’s what baseball bats are for!
Damn!
///

My statndard reply is

I may be old and weak, but I do have just enough strength left to pull the trigger!

//

246 KenJen  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:44:51pm

Later guys. Going home to play with the pups.

247 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:44:51pm

re: #244 J.D.

You’ve overlooked Karl Rove!

That’s technically George, since Karl was his brain.

248 ~Fianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:44:54pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

I was making a sarcastic comment. I was imagining a make-believe situation (maybe). Big Pharma is not the bad boys, Obama was making secret deals with them, see, Obama is doing good, dealing with Big Good Pharma, not Big Bad Pharma.

Just some vague humor.

I was actually meaning to commend the Bush administration, since they’re the ones who started this lawsuit.

In this instance, Pfizer is culpable for what the DOJ accused them of, and the fine is so high because the DOJ is trying to send them a message and the quiter messages of the past few years haven’t gotten through.

249 jcm  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:45:31pm

re: #224 Alouette

I need an Arizona brace, but I can’t afford the deductible on my insurance policy.

One job I had during college was deliverying and installing medical equipment. Wheel Chairs, grab rails, toilet seats, beds etc…

Take a simple raised toilet seat for someone with hip problems, they are commonly available for $50. Now for someone on Medicare to get one, they need a prescription, and from an authorized Medicare vendor. This requires a bunch of paper work back and forth between Doc, vendor and medicare. By the time I delivered and installed the $50 (retail) seat, it cost $150.

Insurance stuff was the same way.

250 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:45:42pm

re: #243 saberry0530

Castor Oil and Witch Hazel for every thing that ails one.

As The Sex Pistols famously observed:

Never mind the Pollux! Here’s the Castor Oil!

251 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:45:43pm
252 Pianobuff  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:45:55pm

OT: This is a little under the radar, but has anyone been following Charlie Rangel lately?

Rangel-ing: Charlie Pays ‘Angels’ In Ethics Probe
Harlem Congressman Gave Campaign Contributions To 3 Dems On Ethics Committee Charged With Investigating Him

NEW YORK (CBS) ― CBS 2 HD has learned of more alleged back-door dealings and political power peddling by Democratic Rep. Charles Rangel.

The reigning member of Congress’ top tax committee is apparently “wrangling” other politicos to get him out of his own financial and tax troubles.

Here’s a look at Charlie’s so-called “angels” involved in his ethics investigation.

Congressman Rangel has been arrogant in refusing to discuss how, as the man who writes this country’s tax laws, he failed to report over $1 million in outside income and $3 million in business transactions as required by the House, lapses under investigation by the House Ethics Committee.

“I recognize that all of you have an obligation to ask questions knowing that there’s none of you smart enough to frame it in such a way that I’m going to respond,” Rangel said.

There may be a reason for Rangel’s arrogance. CBS 2 HD has discovered that since ethics probes began last year the 79-year-old congressman has given campaign donations to 119 members of Congress, including three of the five Democrats on the House Ethics Committee who are charged with investigating him.

Charlie’s “angels” on the committee include Congressmen Ben Chandler of Kentucky, G.K. Butterfield of North Carolina and Peter Welch of Vermont. All have received donations from Rangel.

Only Welch sees something wrong with being financial beholden to Charlie.

“In an abundance of caution, he has returned all campaign contributions from Mr. Rangel,” said spokesman Bob Rogan, Welch’s Chief of Staff.

It amounted to nearly 20 grand.

Experts say the congressman’s largess makes him crazy like a fox.

“Certainly money does make friends and influence people and perhaps make him a little bit more popular and at this particular moment that might help,” said pundit Micheline Blum of Baruch College.

“Buying insurance, you know? Don’t bite the hand that’s feeding you. Clearly he sees himself as having a problem and he is contributing to members who might look favorably,” added Doug Muzzio of Baruch.

Congressman Rangel has said he expects the House Ethics Committee to rule quickly on the ethical charges that are being brought against him. The problem is he’s been saying the same thing for well over a year.

Rangel’s office did not return a request for comment on the question of whether the congressman thought members receiving donations from him should step aside and let others rule on the ethics charges.

253 avanti  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:45:56pm

I think Rasmussen or the other polls have the numbers wrong. For example, Obama has made a 4 point move up on Gallup in the last week, but Rasmussen is way out of line with the other polls.

poll of polls.

254 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:46:14pm

re: #228 Dianna

The Ingalls had what, four daughters? No biological descendants?

Wow!

Mary never married, Laura had one daughter who adopted a child but had no children, Carrie married and had no children, Grace married and had no children (one of those two had stepdaughters, I think), and Freddy did not survive his childhood. (Laura left Freddy out.)

255 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:05pm

re: #240 KenJen

That’s what I thought, but the immediate care place I went to listed the panic attack as a sinus infection. Crazy I know.


Get 2nd opinion

256 jcm  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:25pm

re: #252 Pianobuff

I’ve posted a couple of times…

257 Dianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:38pm

re: #251 buzzsawmonkey

Do you then renounce that nice little block of stock you inherited from Great-Aunt Mathilda?

Don’t get me wrong—I have no problem with intellectual property going public domain after a time. But I like to contrast the IP expiration dates with the perpetual existence of most other property simply for the purpose of exploding the heads of those who would carve out additional exceptions to the copyright term, or drastically prune it back.

How does “life of the author or 75 years” work? Is that the current standard, or am I operating off some silly assumption?

258 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:48pm

re: #242 subsailor68

Hmmm… maybe we could convince Rosie O’Donnell to become a patron of Robert Mapplethorpe.

Ok that is just WRONG!

259 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:49pm

re: #232 buzzsawmonkey

Yes. I’m speaking with an admittedly broad brush here, but most artists are, in my experience, committed leftists. I have pointed out—gently—in lectures to art groups that politically it is the conservatives in government that are the ones protecting their ability to make a living, and for the most part been met with stunned and stony silence.

Later, several members of the audience will typically sidle up shamefacedly—and scared of being overheard—and thank me profusely, in a hushed whisper, for having voiced this simple truth. Poor devils feel so isolated and afraid.

I know, I was hoping you would pontificate for all our sake. I see it every week. And it’s really funny, before the election, we had people running around the theatre, they looked like walking signboards for Obama. Couldn’t shut them up, and as the campaign went on, they were practically peeing in their pants.

Since the election.. nada, zippo, silence. And I found out why. A few reason. Of course the biggest reason, Obama is failing and they know it. There has been one or two actors I know that will talk, and they are not happy.

But another interesting thing, a lot of them don’t even know what is going on. Before the election, they had a talking point for everything. Now, nothing, they don’t even know the number of the House bill. Nothing. They just can’t talk the talk. For a lot of them, it was a game, play acting, no substance, no real understanding.

I can’t even snark with them, they wouldn’t get it.

260 Eowyn2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:50pm

re: #194 KenJen

You were in a car wreck right? This will seem minor then. I sliced my finger open with a box cutter at work early this year. had to get 8 stiches. It was pretty gruesome. I seemed to start getting attacks after that. Related? I don’t know.

you didn’t eat it did you?

/i’m sorry, i just had to.

261 Dreader1962  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:53pm

OT

This book may be intriguing. There is definitely more to know about the Pan Am 103 bombing.

Iran Involved in Pan Am 103?

262 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:54pm

re: #249 jcm

Put ADA in the description of ANY product and you pay 200 to 250%
more!
Faucet,toilets,bath sinks etc…

263 J.D.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:55pm

re: #247 Ben Hur

That’s technically George, since Karl was his brain.

Oh, that’s right.
/
I tend to forget that sometimes.

264 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:47:57pm

re: #216 MandyManners

It might go back to something way, way in your past that the slicing revisited.

Mine from the wreck is still around but the flash-back memory has been brought to the fore-front. The PTSD from the rape, however, is still with me because I cannot recall the memory that causes the flash-back. Tough nut to crack.


The better half deals with that, although it gets easier as time passes. She finally reached the conclusion that it (whatever it is) will reveal itself when she is ready to deal with it. That took some pressure off to be “fixed” on a timeline.

265 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:48:23pm

re: #251 buzzsawmonkey

Do you then renounce that nice little block of stock you inherited from Great-Aunt Mathilda?

Don’t get me wrong—I have no problem with intellectual property going public domain after a time. But I like to contrast the IP expiration dates with the perpetual existence of most other property simply for the purpose of exploding the heads of those who would carve out additional exceptions to the copyright term, or drastically prune it back.

I come from a family where people marry early and live long. I will inherit a few things (no money, trust me) when I am, maybe, 70. My husband won’t have any inheritance either.

266 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:48:34pm

re: #248 ~Fianna

I was actually meaning to commend the Bush administration, since they’re the ones who started this lawsuit.

In this instance, Pfizer is culpable for what the DOJ accused them of, and the fine is so high because the DOJ is trying to send them a message and the quiter messages of the past few years haven’t gotten through.


But then it’s the law of unintended conequences, no? I agree that Pfizer should be punished, and because they continued after #1, more severely after #2. However, where do you think that money will eventually come from?
I would be more in favor of not allowing them to have a piece of something in the future. It means they won’;t get money into their pocktes from that, but it also means they won’t have to take money out of pockets (yours and mine) to pay the fine(s)

267 Pianobuff  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:48:39pm

re: #253 avanti

I think Rasmussen or the other polls have the numbers wrong. For example, Obama has made a 4 point move up on Gallup in the last week, but Rasmussen is way out of line with the other polls.

poll of polls.

Zogby has Obama lower than Rasmussen by a few points, too. He’s down to 42% there, I believe.

268 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:48:40pm

Later.

269 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:48:51pm

re: #252 Pianobuff

I have myself, he’s in a shit load of doodoo.

270 Eowyn2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:48:55pm

re: #218 buzzsawmonkey

I gots my leeches, my lancets, and my laudanum. What do I need pharmaceuticals for?


basilicum powder?

271 Dahveed  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:48:58pm

re: #253 avanti

Zogby has Obama down to 42% approval.

272 SFGoth  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:49:00pm

re: #238 Ben Hur

Never used a vaporizer.
Truth be told I only learned about them about 6 months ago when I watched “Super High Me.”
Highly recommended documentary.

Edibles is the way to go, but you need a lot of spare time.

273 MandyManners  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:49:27pm

The cult of the car is calling.

Have a great day, Lizards!

274 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:49:28pm

re: #252 Pianobuff

Has anyone been following Rangel? You had to ask… :)

Just Jammie and myself on LGF. Or Instapundit. Or Hot Air.

275 Pianobuff  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:49:32pm

re: #256 jcm

Sorry - I must have missed it. Rangel has to be happy with all of the other kerfluffle going on right now.

276 Dianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:49:42pm

re: #254 EmmmieG

Mary never married, Laura had one daughter who adopted a child but had no children, Carrie married and had no children, Grace married and had no children (one of those two had stepdaughters, I think), and Freddy did not survive his childhood. (Laura left Freddy out.)

I had no idea.

I thought Laura mentioned Freddy, but very briefly, as a baby boy who died. I can’t remember which book after so many years.

277 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:50:09pm

re: #271 Dahveed

Zogby has Obama down to 42% approval.

It’s needs to be a trend first. This means nothing. It’s only been going down for 6 months, that’s not a trend.

Avanti in 4,3,2,1…

278 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:50:13pm

re: #208 Dianna

All I can say is that without pharmaceuticals, insomnia would be even worse than it currently is.

Oh, and depression.

Oh, and bi-polar.

Oh, and asthma.

Oh, and HIV.

That’s just off the top of my head.

Even the small comfort issues like acne, hemorrhoids, headaches, cuts and scrapes… We have become accustomed to never feeling out of sorts and that is a miraculous thing.

279 Ben Hur  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:50:19pm

re: #272 SFGoth

Edibles is the way to go, but you need a lot of spare time.

Edibles, as in to eat, or is that a Vaporizer brand?

280 subsailor68  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:50:28pm

re: #258 Creeping Eruption

Ok that is just WRONG!

Hi CE! I’m sorry - just couldn’t resist. Big upding for ya for being an art buff.

:-)

281 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:50:46pm

re: #274 lawhawk

Has anyone been following Rangel? You had to ask… :)

Just Jammie and myself on LGF. Or Instapundit. Or Hot Air.

MSM,,, collective {yawn}

282 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:51:01pm

BB later - if anyone see Diego, tell him hi.

283 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:51:05pm

re: #275 Pianobuff

Sorry - I must have missed it. Rangel has to be happy with all of the other kerfluffle going on right now.

Well, he had managed to provide significant campaign contributions to three of the Democrats sitting on the very committee that’s supposed to decide his ethics violations, which itself presents a conflict of interest and ethics violations all in itself.

And that doesn’t begin to scratch the surface on his malfeasance.

284 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:51:09pm

re: #91 MandyManners

How will socializing medicine affect research?

Medical research will become something like the development of new systems by the defense-aerospace industry on cost-plus contracts. We know how efficient, innovative, and cost effective that is. NOT!

You think drug development is expensive now, just wait until the government is in control of it.

285 schlagerman  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:51:33pm

I happen to work for an eeevil big pharma company. Big pharma, as much as liberals would like you to believe, is not evil. I’m quite proud of the work our company does to produce an infant vaccine that has literally saved millions of lives. Every day at work I’m surrounded by decent, honest people who work extremely hard to ensure our vaccine is safe and effective. I have high praise for our corporate leadership’s desire and diligent work to cut costs to bring our infant vaccine to developing nations who wouldn’t ordinarily be able to afford it. None of this is ever reported, though. The only thing many liberals would have us believe is big pharma is out to profit from suffering, raping as many customers along the way as possible. It sickens and disgusts me, but I keep coming to work every day knowing that what we do saves lives.

286 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:51:38pm

re: #254 EmmmieG

Mary never married, Laura had one daughter who adopted a child but had no children, Carrie married and had no children, Grace married and had no children (one of those two had stepdaughters, I think), and Freddy did not survive his childhood. (Laura left Freddy out.)

How many descendants does Johann Sebastian Bach have?

287 jcm  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:51:49pm

re: #275 Pianobuff

One congress critter is making a little hay out of it…

GOP Congressman Intros ‘Rangel Rule,’ Eliminating IRS Late Fees

Would be interesting, an new law… if a congresscritter does it it’s legal (unless they are prosecuted).

288 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:52:06pm

re: #282 Walter L. Newton

BB later - if anyone see Diego, tell him hi.


INTERPRETATION
Dear Diego

Walter says STFD and STFU Sally

There!

289 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:52:17pm

re: #282 Walter L. Newton

Is that with a ” Hello” or a ‘California Howdy’??

290 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:52:54pm

re: #272 SFGoth

Crushed ice in glass - or so I’ve heard.

291 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:53:29pm

re: #285 schlagerman

hear hear!

upding, and thanks

292 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:53:47pm

re: #280 subsailor68

Hi CE! I’m sorry - just couldn’t resist. Big upding for ya for being an art buff.

:-)

I like art. I even like art in the buff. But I draw the line at art with R.O in the buff. :)

293 debutaunt  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:53:48pm

re: #226 Occasional Reader

Did you buy that stuff at Leeches, Lancets, & Beyond?

Yup, but the ‘drug’ was sold behind the store.

294 ~Fianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:54:06pm

re: #266 sattv4u2

But then it’s the law of unintended conequences, no? I agree that Pfizer should be punished, and because they continued after #1, more severely after #2. However, where do you think that money will eventually come from?
I would be more in favor of not allowing them to have a piece of something in the future. It means they won’;t get money into their pocktes from that, but it also means they won’t have to take money out of pockets (yours and mine) to pay the fine(s)

That’s a good point. But is there an unintended consequence to that? Will they not invent or patent something valuable and helpful because of the loss of profit?

Medical research is one of those things I’m really conflicted about. I’d rather see more of it done in research institutions with public funding because the profit reality adds a lot of problems (like hiding research that shows a popular drug may be harmful; not developing drugs for less sexy diseases; etc.)… but that’s also somewhat unfair to the drug companies.

Perhaps a hybrid agreement, where the research is done in independent facilities, but the companies manufacture and distribute and pocket the profit after research costs have been subsidized?

295 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:54:48pm

re: #285 schlagerman

I happen to work for an eeevil big pharma company. Big pharma, as much as liberals would like you to believe, is not evil. I’m quite proud of the work our company does to produce an infant vaccine that has literally saved millions of lives. Every day at work I’m surrounded by decent, honest people who work extremely hard to ensure our vaccine is safe and effective. I have high praise for our corporate leadership’s desire and diligent work to cut costs to bring our infant vaccine to developing nations who wouldn’t ordinarily be able to afford it. None of this is ever reported, though. The only thing many liberals would have us believe is big pharma is out to profit from suffering, raping as many customers along the way as possible. It sickens and disgusts me, but I keep coming to work every day knowing that what we do saves lives.

Wonder how many of them take meds your company has made, benefitting them greatly, while decrying you in the next breath.
Hmmm…

296 Pianobuff  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:54:48pm

re: #287 jcm

One congress critter is making a little hay out of it…

GOP Congressman Intros ‘Rangel Rule,’ Eliminating IRS Late Fees

Would be interesting, an new law… if a congresscritter does it it’s legal (unless they are prosecuted).

Somewhat of a stunt, but I’ll give him credit for cleverness.

297 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:54:58pm
298 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:55:05pm

re: #283 lawhawk

Well, he had managed to provide significant campaign contributions to three of the Democrats sitting on the very committee that’s supposed to decide his ethics violations, which itself presents a conflict of interest and ethics violations all in itself.

And that doesn’t begin to scratch the surface on his malfeasance.

I don’t think that “the mere appearance of impropriety” thing works with these people.

299 Dreader1962  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:55:21pm

The portrayal of pharmaceutical companies begins with calling them ‘big’. This has passed into our culture as an implicit word for ‘evil’. Think ‘Big Oil’, ‘Big Pharma’, ‘Big Automakers’.

I’ve always been curious - where are the ‘little’ versions of these companies? If there are none, then why attach an adjective? Only to imply something, of course!

300 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:55:36pm

re: #285 schlagerman

Right on and to the damn point!
SAVE LIVES!
What a concept!


Well I’m OUTTA HERE!
Four day weekend and nothing to do!!

301 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:56:05pm

re: #299 Dreader1962

The portrayal of pharmaceutical companies begins with calling them ‘big’. This has passed into our culture as an implicit word for ‘evil’. Think ‘Big Oil’, ‘Big Pharma’, ‘Big Automakers’.

I’ve always been curious - where are the ‘little’ versions of these companies? If there are none, then why attach an adjective? Only to imply something, of course!

The amount of capital necessary to run a pharmaceutical test is too much for a small company.

302 ~Fianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:56:52pm

re: #277 Walter L. Newton

It’s needs to be a trend first. This means nothing. It’s only been going down for 6 months, that’s not a trend.

Avanti in 4,3,2,1…

Rasmussen is polling a different set, which might account for why it’s outlying the other polls.

Anyone who says there isn’t a trend down is illiterate, though. I’m still not sure what it means, if anything - it’d have been impossible for anyone short of God to keep 80% approval rates.

303 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:56:54pm

re: #294 ~Fianna

The unintended part is that with a fine, they’ll have to recoup their loss by charging just a little more for everything
When there is something manufactured thats shared by various drug co’s, like the swine flu vaccine thats being produced, if they aren’t allowed to participate they don’t reap a profit from that, but it didn’t “cost” them anything out of pocket

304 avanti  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:57:21pm

re: #267 Pianobuff

Zogby has Obama lower than Rasmussen by a few points, too. He’s down to 42% there, I believe.

Both Nate Silver and Real Clear Politics ignores Zogby as unreliable based on results compared to their polling.

Zogby predicts potential McCain landslide
Quote:
Zogby said he thinks the race will turn in the last weekend before Election Day and though the popular vote will be tight, the successful candidate will win in a landslide.
He likened this year’s election to the contest in 1980, when Ronald Reagan defeated President Jimmy Carter.

“This may be and probably is the most important election in our lifetime,” Zogby said. “I don’t say that lightly.”

Despite two books by Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, Americans still don’t know enough about him. And if they don’t think they know him well enough by the time they vote, they’ll go with the “comfortable old shoe,” Republican Sen. John McCain, Zogby said.

305 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:58:13pm

re: #299 Dreader1962

The portrayal of pharmaceutical companies begins with calling them ‘big’. This has passed into our culture as an implicit word for ‘evil’. Think ‘Big Oil’, ‘Big Pharma’, ‘Big Automakers’.

I’ve always been curious - where are the ‘little’ versions of these companies? If there are none, then why attach an adjective? Only to imply something, of course!

Big Government. I’m down with that being implied evil.

306 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:58:44pm

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

Current term is life plus 70 for human authors, 95 years for work for hire “authors.”

The terms are under constant attack by the “information wants to be free” (i.e., “I want free content”) crowd. The most recent form of attack is the “orphan works” provisions which failed in the last Congress, which seek to create a new kind of fair use for works whose authors “cannot be found.”

The anti-copyright crowd are fond of pointing out that the protection afforded works under copyright law is intended to stimulate creativity for the public’s benefit, and suggest endlessly that if the benefit is not actively “stimulating creativity” (as in, for example, rights which survive the author) then such protection is not legitimate.

What these anti-copyright partisans forget is that restricting the use of work for a period of time if you are not willing to pay the license also stimulates creativity; if you can’t find the author, or are too damn cheap to pay the licensing fee, you have to think of something else. In other words, you are being forced to be creative. And the public benefits by that, too.

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts about a dust up on the internet archive a years or so ago. They had posted soundboard recorded concerts of the Grateful Dead. The Dead wanted them pulled and they eventually reached a compromise. What is the status of a performance where the performer allows the recording and dissemination of their work?

307 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:59:40pm

re: #286 Alouette

How many descendants does Johann Sebastian Bach have?

I’m trying to find a website that will tell me that isn’t in German. No luck so far.

308 ~Fianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:00:20pm

re: #299 Dreader1962

The portrayal of pharmaceutical companies begins with calling them ‘big’. This has passed into our culture as an implicit word for ‘evil’. Think ‘Big Oil’, ‘Big Pharma’, ‘Big Automakers’.

I’ve always been curious - where are the ‘little’ versions of these companies? If there are none, then why attach an adjective? Only to imply something, of course!

Oil’s the only one I can’t think of a small (and much more innovative) company right off the top of my head.

309 avanti  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:00:56pm

re: #277 Walter L. Newton

It’s needs to be a trend first. This means nothing. It’s only been going down for 6 months, that’s not a trend.

Avanti in 4,3,2,1…

The trend is down, look at the chart.From the low 60’s to 53 and change. It’s just as we discussed months ago when Nate predicted the drop after the honeymoon. Those voters that did not vote for him, give him a chance to show he was not a liberal, but of course he is.

310 ~Fianna  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:01:25pm

re: #303 sattv4u2

The unintended part is that with a fine, they’ll have to recoup their loss by charging just a little more for everything
When there is something manufactured thats shared by various drug co’s, like the swine flu vaccine thats being produced, if they aren’t allowed to participate they don’t reap a profit from that, but it didn’t “cost” them anything out of pocket

That’s a good way of looking at it, and something that I hadn’t thought of. Thanks :)

311 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:01:58pm

re: #304 avanti

re: #304 avanti

Zogby predicts potential McCain landslide

Do you even read what you post?

Zogby PREDICTS POTENTIAL

. It doesn’t state that Zogby POLLS LANDSLIDE

My God, you really have to stop sniffing Studebaker fumes!
//

312 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:03:39pm
313 Pianobuff  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:03:43pm

re: #304 avanti

Both Nate Silver and Real Clear Politics ignores Zogby as unreliable based on results compared to their polling.

Zogby predicts potential McCain landslide
Quote:
Zogby said he thinks the race will turn in the last weekend before Election Day and though the popular vote will be tight, the successful candidate will win in a landslide.
He likened this year’s election to the contest in 1980, when Ronald Reagan defeated President Jimmy Carter.

“This may be and probably is the most important election in our lifetime,” Zogby said. “I don’t say that lightly.”

Despite two books by Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, Americans still don’t know enough about him. And if they don’t think they know him well enough by the time they vote, they’ll go with the “comfortable old shoe,” Republican Sen. John McCain, Zogby said.

Yes. That’s why I tend to trust Rasmussen more. They were number 1 in calling the 2008 election. Zogby was 18th. CBS, incidentally has Obama at 56% in the RCP average and they were behind even Zogby in calling the election (19th). Polls are funny things.

314 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:03:51pm

re: #310 ~Fianna

That’s a good way of looking at it, and something that I hadn’t thought of. Thanks :)

Thanks , my pleasure

315 aggieann  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:04:05pm

re: #254 EmmmieG

Mary never married, Laura had one daughter who adopted a child but had no children, Carrie married and had no children, Grace married and had no children (one of those two had stepdaughters, I think), and Freddy did not survive his childhood. (Laura left Freddy out.)

The New Yorker had an interesting article about the Wilders:
[Link: www.newyorker.com…]

316 SFGoth  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:04:57pm

re: #279 Ben Hur

Edibles, as in to eat, or is that a Vaporizer brand?

The former.

317 debutaunt  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:05:46pm

re: #304 avanti

That’s right! McCain lost!

318 schlagerman  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:05:59pm

re: #301 EmmmieG

Very true. That’s why many smaller companies with attractive drug candidates are bought by larger ones with much deeper pockets that can pay for drug development and clinical trials.

319 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:06:00pm

re: #312 taxfreekiller

After the 6 hours on my bike for the 100 miles of the HHH-100,
big phama felt good.

photo’s and links to others at

14,205 this year
if you look close at the start line photo you will see tfk

[Link:

320 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:06:03pm
321 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:06:52pm

re: #312 taxfreekiller

After the 6 hours on my bike for the 100 miles of the HHH-100,
big phama felt good.

photo’s and links to others at

14,205 this year
if you look close at the start line photo you will see tfk

[Link:

322 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:07:28pm

I give up!

323 aggieann  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:08:01pm

re: #278 DaddyG

Even the small comfort issues like acne, hemorrhoids, headaches, cuts and scrapes… We have become accustomed to never feeling out of sorts and that is a miraculous thing.

It’s only because of big pharma that cuts and scrapes ARE “small comfort issues.” Not so long ago, they were potential killers.

324 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:10:36pm

re: #134 MandyManners

ATTORNEYS!

That’s a good idea! Socialized legal care!

Need a will? Get in line and eventually one of our paralegals will get around to you. But you’ll just get the generic will. Anything more complicated will mean another six month’s wait until you can see an attorney.

You shot someone? Well, you’ll get the next court-appointed lawyer on the list. No going outside the system to obtain your own attorney. Wouldn’t be fair. Oh, and all attorneys get paid straight salary - GS-whatever grade pay. And they work strictly eight hour days. No overtime authorized.

325 schlagerman  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:11:30pm

re: #295 SasquatchOnSteroids

I’ve often had that same thought. It doesn’t matter, though. A moonbat’s life doesn’t have less value than someone with whom I agree politically.

326 avanti  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:15:21pm

re: #317 debutaunt

That’s right! McCain lost!

Zogby had him up by a point on 1 Nov:


“McCain Leads Obama in Latest Zogby Poll

Highlights of the latest Zogby poll:

–McCain 48%, Obama 47%
–McCain leads among blue collar voters.
–McCain leading heavily among men.
–McCain commanding lead among so-called “NASCAR voters.”

This is a result from Friday polling only out of the three-day daily tracking poll. Zobgy samples about 400 voters each day, ending at 5pm each day, for a total of 1200 in the rolling average. The prior days showed Obama up 5 points.
Results will be released at 1am EST on November 1st.”

327 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:15:33pm

re: #320 buzzsawmonkey

If the performer permits it—is satisfied with whatever agreement is reached—why should there be a problem?

The problem is with people who think their “I want” trumps the performer’s rights.

That was my question. The Dead obviously allowed their fans to record their shows. Later, they wanted the archive to prohibit people from downloading the soundboard recordings. Not really changed their minds, but … Probably because they could be used for official releases that can be sold. The issue was resolved, but would they have had any intellectual property rights to the recorded music?

328 FrogMarch  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:15:42pm

Say a little prayer for all the little animals being held down by straps and in small cages so that we can have these life saving medications.

329 CommonCents  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:17:35pm

re: #154 MandyManners

Same here. Do you do breathing exercises?

First it’s breaking water and now the breathing exercises. There’s a punchline to this story. I just can’t place it.

330 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:17:52pm

re: #299 Dreader1962

The portrayal of pharmaceutical companies begins with calling them ‘big’. This has passed into our culture as an implicit word for ‘evil’. Think ‘Big Oil’, ‘Big Pharma’, ‘Big Automakers’.

I’ve always been curious - where are the ‘little’ versions of these companies? If there are none, then why attach an adjective? Only to imply something, of course!

Waste Management = Big Doo Doo
Gorton’s = Big Fish
McDonalds = Big Mac

331 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:18:56pm
332 mfarmer1  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:30:57pm

We need Big Pharma. People need good reliable psychotropic medications.

Like this guy:

Image: r4006237097.jpg

And this guy:

Image: r661388532.jpg

Him too:

Image: r2744283837.jpg

She does too:

Image: r4280999774.jpg

And she give me some great ideas for my next Halloween costume:

Image: r3236767893.jpg

333 Throbert McGee  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 3:18:06pm

re: #160 Spider Mensch

you dropped your corn dog in the sand…

Fie! Do not take the name of corn dogs in vain!

334 Throbert McGee  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 3:41:41pm

re: #254 EmmmieG

Laura [Ingalls Wilder] had one daughter who adopted a child but had no children

Reason mag, I think, had an interesting article about Laura’s daughter, Rose Wilder, being a sort of godmother to 20th-century American libertarianism.

Ah, here it is. Okay, actually, the article is primarily an appreciation of the writer Isabel Patterson — arguing that as a popularizer of libertarianism and individualism (and as a tireless opponent of New Deal socialism, etc.), she was as significant a figure as Rose Wilder Lane and Ayn Rand (and to some extent a mentor to the latter), although less well remembered today than either of them. But it does give a brief treatment of Rose Wilder’s career as a writer on political themes, apart from being the editor (and by some accounts the ghostwriter) of her mom’s Little House books.

335 Dan G.  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 4:42:53pm

re: #32 Diego

And if we regulated ours then ours wouldcome down go away.

Fixed that for you.

336 victor_yugo  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 7:58:57pm

re: #328 FrogMarch

Say a little prayer for all the little animals being held down by straps and in small cages so that we can have these life saving medications.

Life-saving medications, fine.

Mascara and after-shave, forget it. Animals do not have to suffer and die for human vanity.

337 Ian MacGregor  Thu, Sep 3, 2009 9:19:23pm

It’s not been a great year for the pharmaceutical industry.

[Link: scienceblogs.com…]

338 StillAMarine  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:12:39am

It takes about ten years, many millions of dollars and a very painstaking process to get a new drug from the lab to the pharmacy shelves. That is to say nothing about the time and expense involved in researching the new drug in the first place. In other words, it is a very meticulous, expensive and time consuming process.
Many of the drug companies are based in Europe or other locations outside the United States. But who pays for all the research and development? Not the Europeans, Canadians or other citizens of countries outside the US. United States patients do, subsidizing everybody else in the world for the research and development of new drugs.
So when we complain about the high price of drugs in the US compared with the much lower price in places like Canada, it would be good to bear that in mind.
That is not to say that I support the system of socialized medicine in Canada; on the contrary I have several horror stories I could share. What I am saying is that we need to find some way of better sharing the true cost of drugs among all consumers of drug products.

339 griffon  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 2:16:28pm

My father-in-law died of a heart attack shortly after starting Bextra. My MIL is awaiting her class action settlement.


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