Truther Document ‘Signatories’ Say They Were Misled

US News • Views: 12,335

As people dig around for incriminating evidence on Van Jones at 9/11 Truther sites and crazy conspiracy sites like the antisemitic, Holocaust-denying rense.com (which, by the way, is not a credible source of information about anything), here are a couple of tidbits that tend to back up Jones’ claim that he is not a Truther and signed that infamous document under false pretenses.

First, Ben Smith contacted two of the other “signatories” of that document, and learned that they had indeed been misled by the Truthers, and thought they were signing a legitimate document calling for further investigations.

Here’s the response from leftist Rabbi Michael Lerner:

I was asked to sign a letter which I was told had four demands:

As Americans of conscience, we ask for four things:

1. An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer
2. Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings.
3. Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence.
4. The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry.

I did not authorize my name to be used for all the other stuff that I now see was included surrounding the letter, namely the sponsors of that 911truth.org, and would not have had I been aware that all that stuff was presented in ways that suggested that I agreed with it, and though I do recognize a few of the people I’d consider “nut cases” among the list of signatories, my guess is that most of those who signed were, like me, unaware of the context in which our names would appear.

And from far left “historian” Howard Zinn:

Zinn sent me a curt email in response to a question of whether he’d intended to suggest Bush’s complicity in the attacks: “I did not sign a statement suggesting that ‘Bush had prior knowledge.’ I signed a statement calling for an investigation.”

In other words, the Truthers lied about the real intent of their document in order to get people to sign it.

Imagine my surprise.

But that’s not all. The document currently posted at the Truther website was altered to remove a name: Rachel Ehrenfeld, author of “Funding Evil; How Terrorism is Financed and How to Stop It.” Checking the website of Ehrenfeld’s organization, the American Center for Democracy, we find the following statement (hat tip: Lee Coller):

PLEASE NOTE: Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld is not a signatory of the 911truth.org. She has asked several times to have her named removed from the list, but the organization failed to comply.

Again … Truthers lie.

Please note: if Van Jones is forced to step down over the issue, I’m not going to be unhappy. He’s clearly much farther to the left than a presidential aide should be.

But it’s a little pathetic that people would eagerly accept the word of Truthers and rense.com, without any other evidence.

UPDATE at 9/4/09 11:26:41 am:

If you want to get upset at Van Jones for something real, instead of allegations that come from conspiracy hate sites, here’s a good candidate; he supported the release of cop killer Mumia Abu Jamal.

Or you could read the LGF post from last July that exposes Van Jones’ weird pseudo-scientific beliefs: Obama’s Pseudo-Science Czar.

There are plenty of real, valid reasons to question the appointment of Van Jones, and there’s no need to go hunting around on zero-credibility hate sites to find them.

UPDATE at 9/4/09 12:18:08 pm:

There’s no need to lie about my position, Ace. I am not “supporting” or “defending” Van Jones, and I’ve made that extremely clear. I’m defending the apparently out-of-fashion concept that accusations like this should be based on credible sources, and not Truther sites and hate sites.

Jump to bottom

633 comments
1 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:14:22am

Their troofers, I can't believe their denials.
///

2 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:15:14am

Their? THEIR?

()*&)(*&@%$&*(*(%�*(&(^*�& I hate it a misspelling like that F's up the joke!

3 sngnsgt  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:16:05am
4 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:16:26am

re: #2 CyanSnowHawk

Their? THEIR?

()*&)(*&@%$&*(*(%&#*(&(^*&#& I hate it when a misspelling like that F's up the joke!

I give up. Have a good Labor Day weekend everybody.

5 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:16:28am
But it’s a little pathetic that people would eagerly accept the word of Truthers and rense.com, without any other evidence.

Folks don't want the truth anymore, it seems. They want their biases confirmed, and if you don't believe it- this episode is a prime example.

6 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:18:39am

Pretty sneaky way to get someone to sign

7 Athens Runaway  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:18:55am
Please note: if Van Jones is forced to step down over the issue, I’m not going to be unhappy. He’s clearly much farther to the left than a presidential aide should be.

Gee, ya think!?

Just kidding. You may get ripped on a lot, and I know that I've criticized you before, but it's not easy advocating for reason in unreasonable times.

8 Stoutcat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:20:33am

Yes, I had noticed the discrepancies between cached versions and the original. But that still doesn't explain why Jones didn't simply say either "I don't know what you're talking about" or "I didn't sign anything remotely like that" or something like that. Most folks would at least come out with a "Whut?!" rather than to say that the statement doesn't reflect their views.

Folks such as Rabbi Michael Lerner:

"I did not authorize my name to be used for all the other stuff..."

Or Howard Zinn:

“I did not sign a statement suggesting that ‘Bush had prior knowledge.’ I signed a statement calling for an investigation.”

Or Rachel Ehrenfield:

"Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld is not a signatory of the 911Truth.org."

I understand the point, but I think Jones is getting harder and harder to defend on this one.

9 baier  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:20:37am

You'd think people would be more careful about what they sign their names to. I agree they probably didn't have any idea about what they were agreeing to, but i have little sympathy for them.

10 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:20:51am

This merely proves that Jones is more sinister and sneaky than we thought.

He had the foresight to arrange for some fake signatures to give him plausible deniability in the future, in the incredibly likely and obvious scenario that a black Democrat with a kenyan father and the middle name Hussein would win the White House in 2008 and want to make him green jobs czar.

I refuse to employ sarc tags for the irony-deficient.

11 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:21:00am

Whatever Michael Lerner says, take it with lots of salt.. That lunatic Keven Barrett has had Lerner up on his 911 truther web site for years and Lerner never dis-avowed it before now.

Rabbi Michael Lerner Salutes “Amazing” 9/11 Truth Efforts
Calls for Spiritual Covenant, Social Change

By Kevin Barrett
[Link: mujca.com...]

Rabbi Michael Lerner, the prominent progressive Jewish activist and founder of Tikkun, has offered a powerful statement of encouragement and advice to the exploding 9/11 truth movement. Rabbi Lerner’s call for turning 9/11 truth into a force for social change, and not just a forum for theorizing, offers a welcome note of inspiration to the upcoming international 9/11 truth conference in Chicago, 9/11: Revealing the Truth, Reclaiming Our Future, June 2nd to June 4th, 2006: [Link: 911truth.org...]

In an essay entitled “What If We Succeed in Exposing 9/11 as a Fraud...What Next?” Rabbi Lerner writes: “...I salute the people in this collection of articles who are doing an amazing job of exposing what may prove to be one of the most perverse conspiracies in the history of democratic governments.” The essay will be published in 9/11 and the American Empire: Jews, Christians and Muslims Speak Out (Interlink, fall 2006). ..

[Link: www.mujca.com...]

Lerner is also a contributor this this 911 truther book:

/11 & American Empire: Christians, Jews, and Muslims Speak Out (Paperback)

Product Description
Inspired by David Ray Griffin's internationally acclaimed book The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11, this anthology presents a variety of perspectives on 9/11 and empire from authors who identify with one of the major Abrahamic traditions. Co-edited by a major Christian theologian (John Cobb), a Jewish scholar (Sandra Lubarsky), and a Muslim scholar (Kevin Barrett), the book features essays by 9/11 revisionists and activists alongside those of noted writers and scholars, including several of the leading religious intellectuals of our time. The writers offer reflections on 9/11 and empire informed by the moral principles of their religious traditions as well as by the obligation to engage in thoughtful dialogue with those of other traditions. While the question of of the Bush administration's and Us military and intelligence leaders' possible complicity in 9/11- and the moral implications of facing that possibility-is at the forefront of the book's agenda, it also addresses the way 9/11 has been used to expand the US empire's "global domination project"-raising profound moral questions that confront all of us, whatever our views on 9/11 complicity and whatever our faith, worldview, or national/ethnic identification.
Contributors include Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, Kevin Barrett, Faiz Khan, Enver Masud, Yasmin Ahmed, Tamar Frankiel, Roger Gottlieb, Marc Ellis, Sandra Lubarsky, Rabbi Michael Lerner, John Cobb, David Ray Griffin, Carter Heyward, Catherine Keller, and Rosemary Radford Ruether.


[Link: www.amazon.com...]

12 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:21:27am

My guess is that Jones will throw himself under the bus late this afternoon. Three day weekend with few people paying attention to the news. Forgotten by next Tuesday. Old news.

13 debutaunt  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:21:28am

re: #7 Athens Runaway

Gee, ya think!?

Just kidding. You may get ripped on a lot, and I know that I've criticized you before, but it's not easy advocating for reason in unreasonable times.

Unvetted czars are full of surprises.

14 StillAMarine  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:22:39am

Why do truthers and birthers somehow bring Ron Paul to mind?

15 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:22:42am

re: #12 Son of the Black Dog

My guess is that Jones will throw himself under the bus late this afternoon. Three day weekend with few people paying attention to the news. Forgotten by next Tuesday. Old news.

After the evening news? I think yes, or Saturday.

16 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:22:48am

Looks like I may have been wrong.

17 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:23:03am

re: #9 baier

You'd think people would be more careful about what they sign their names to. I agree they probably didn't have any idea about what they were agreeing to, but i have little sympathy for them.

I think there are a lot of people --even those who should really know better--who don't realize the significance of a signature.

18 Athens Runaway  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:23:08am

re: #13 debutaunt

Unvetted czars advisors are full of surprises.

Pedantic, maybe. Accurate, yes.

19 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:23:46am

Okay, I've had a post up on the subject. Now to add a bit more.

Let's give Jones the benefit of the doubt on his signature. Did he not know that his name was on there? He was vetted for this position, wasn't he? He had to let the Administration know if there was anything that could cause problems?

If there was a problem and he didn't want to be associated, did he attempt to have this cleared up? And what about the earlier anti-war gathering in January 2002 that wanted to get to the truth about 9/11, where he was supposed to be one of the organizers?

There's smoke there, but it isn't a wildfire.

It's a simmering mess, which is completely par for the course with any of Obama's appointments.

As for the people who think that if he's canned because of the trooferism and not more and that it's a shame if that happens, let's recall Borking and the Clarence Thomas issue where Democrats did all they can as smear merchants to prevent confirmation.

Obama is surrounding himself with like minded folks, as is his perogative, but you can't expect the right (or the center) to go along with what he's doing. They'll raise Cain over appointments and if they knock down a few then they've got something they can take back to their constituents and can force Obama to come to the negotiating table.

After all, on HR3200 (ObamaCare), it was written without any GOP input. Just like other bills - only after they came to the floor (without being read) was a stink made and changes brought in.

20 fanoffiat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:23:53am

I think nirthers are morons.

I consider anybody that claims "I'm not saying he wasn't born in the US, I just want an investigation." a nirther.

Same goes for Troofers.

21 doubter4444  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:04am

A lot of people will believe anything, from any source, as long as it supports their contention.
It's a black and white world and the sky is falling.

22 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:14am

re: #14 StillAMarine

Why do truthers and birthers somehow bring Ron Paul to mind?

Because they go where the crazy is. These days they show up at Tea Party protests. I find it hypocritical that the same people complaining about this also associate with 9-11 truthers.

23 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:43am

Regarding this issue, I can only repeat my prior post:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #1549 lorien1973

Now, as early as 2002, he's linked to truthers at Rense.

Either he signs anything that put in front of him or he's a truther. Which comforts you more?

Come on people. Just accept that he's a truther. I ask again - why is it hard to believe?

To believe that both 911truth and Rense both (in 2002 and 2004) put this guy's name on a petition in hopes that he goes to the WH in 2009 to embarrass him is silly. He's admitted to signing it (he just didn't read it well enough! - twice now!). Occam's Razor.

Someone's earlier comment said that he's made statements that 9/11 was done by terrorists. Think back to 2004. This does not preclude the LIHOP movement of trutherism - let it happen on purpose. Remember? That's how it started.

Quit apologizing for this idiot. He's a truther. He's said he's a communist. He should be gone.

It WOULD be kinda like believing that dark forces faked Obama's birth certificate and placed announcements of his birth in Hawaiian newspapers because they knew in advance that he would run for President, wouldn't it?

I don’t necessarily think he ever really BELIEVED that 9-11 was ‘an inside job’; I just think that at the time and in the leftist moonbat circles he ran in, signing such a petition and being a member of such a committee was the kewl, anti-Bush thing to do. And the LAST thing he would wanna do would be to appear unkewl to his political droogiez.

Kinda like some wingnuts embracing Nirtherism these days.


Sal: Oh; and I added the word 'moonbat'; I had intended to type it in the original post.

24 Rexatosis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:54am

There is an old rule of thumb that one reads anything they are asked to sign in its entirety before they sign it. Doing so saves one much embarrassment later on.

25 BlueCanuck  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:59am

re: #14 StillAMarine

Why do truthers and birthers somehow bring Ron Paul to mind?

Well here's a little tidbit I discovered while searching the net this morning. All part of this web site. Pay attention to the picture at the top of the page on the first link.

26 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:25:40am

Curious, what exactly did these signatories (misled or not misled) believe was going to be "investigated" as a result of this petition?

27 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:25:44am

re: #25 BlueCanuck

Well here's a little tidbit I discovered while searching the net this morning. All part of this web site. Pay attention to the picture at the top of the page on the first link.

nice flag

/

28 debutaunt  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:25:55am

re: #13 debutaunt

Unvetted czars are full of surprises.

ooops. I thought he was the so-called green jobs czar?

29 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:26:16am

Whole lotta signatories being misled. It's like an epidemic.

Let's not forget Robert Spencer claims he was misled too when he signed up for that website that wanted the Greeks to re-assert control over land lost to the Turks and expel the current Muslim inhabitants.

Moral of the stories: don't sign anything unless you're damn sure you know what it is you're signing.

30 Chekote  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:26:48am

Even if Van Jones steps down, does anyone here think that he still won't have Obama's ear?

31 Gretchen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:26:56am

It shows a lack of judgement if he was willing to put his name on something without reading it first.

Kind of like our congresscritters voting on legislation without reading it all.

32 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:27:33am

re: #29 Land Shark

Whole lotta signatories being misled. It's like an epidemic.

Let's not forget Robert Spencer claims he was misled too when he signed up for that website that wanted the Greeks to re-assert control over land lost to the Turks and expel the current Muslim inhabitants.

Moral of the stories: don't sign anything unless you're damn sure you know what it is you're signing.

di-hydrogen monoxide?

33 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:27:34am

re: #23 Salamantis

Regarding this issue, I can only repeat my prior post:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #1549 lorien1973

It WOULD be kinda like believing that dark forces faked Obama's birth certificate and placed announcements of his birth in Hawaiian newspapers because they knew in advance that he would run for President, wouldn't it?

I don’t necessarily think he ever really BELIEVED that 9-11 was ‘an inside job’; I just think that at the time and in the leftist moonbat circles he ran in, signing such a petition and being a member of such a committee was the kewl, anti-Bush thing to do. And the LAST thing he would wanna do would be to appear unkewl to his political droogiez.

Kinda like some wingnuts embracing Nirtherism these days.

Sal: Oh; and I added the word 'moonbat'; I had intended to type it in the original post.

Very good analysis, Sal. Smart, rational, and it fits the facts.

34 Chekote  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:27:55am

re: #31 Gretchen

It shows a lack of judgement if he was willing to put his name on something without reading it first.

Kind of like our congresscritters voting on legislation without reading it all.

Excellent point!

35 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:28:05am

re: #32 ggt

Heh.

36 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:28:08am

re: #29 Land Shark

Let's not forget Robert Spencer claims he was misled too when he signed up for that website that wanted the Greeks to re-assert control over land lost to the Turks and expel the current Muslim inhabitants.


Big difference: Spencer is an advocate for Christian reconquest of Turkey and links to groups advocating it on his blog. He has done this for years. He's clearly a supporter of the cause.

37 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:28:09am

re: #24 Rexatosis

There is an old rule of thumb that one reads anything they are asked to sign in its entirety before they sign it. Doing so saves one much embarrassment later on.

You're missing the point. The document these people signed was NOT the document posted on the Truther websites. It had none of the conspiracy stuff and was a simple call for more investigations. Truthers added the other garbage AFTER they had their "signatories."

And in the case of Rachel Ehrenfeld, it looks like they simply used her name without even getting her to sign anything.

38 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:28:18am

re: #29 Land Shark

Whole lotta signatories being misled. It's like an epidemic.

Let's not forget Robert Spencer claims he was misled too when he signed up for that website that wanted the Greeks to re-assert control over land lost to the Turks and expel the current Muslim inhabitants.

Moral of the stories: don't sign anything unless you're damn sure you know what it is you're signing.

Quite Concur.

39 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:29:11am
40 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:29:36am

re: #30 Chekote

Even if Van Jones steps down, does anyone here think that he still won't have Obama's ear?

As big as those ears are, Jones will be too far away to be heard.
/

41 MacDuff  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:29:47am

While it's eminently prudent to question the word of 9/11 Truthers, this episode has shed light on Van Jones and any number of questionable statements he's made and views on which he has expounded.

42 JohnH  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:30:15am

re: #39 Anthony (Los Angeles)
Exactly, I think some of us have moved to evidence beyond the petition.

43 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:30:19am
44 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:30:28am

Don't link to Rense please.

45 DANEgerus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:30:35am

How about if we accept the word of Van Jones?

And what person, that isn't mentally ill, would sign up with the Truthers?

46 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:30:43am

Please. Do not post links to rense.com.

I thought this would have been clear from my post. I'm not going to allow links to a flat-out hate site like that. There is nothing credible about anything at rense.com.

47 Athens Runaway  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:30:56am

re: #28 debutaunt

ooops. I thought he was the so-called green jobs czar?

That's the nickname for him, but strictly speaking it's not a "czar" position. His full title is "Special Advisor for Green Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation at the White House Council on Environmental Equality."

Still, he had no Senate confirmation, and suffers no accountability to the public, etc. He's a bureaucrat, albeit a very high-ranking bureaucrat in charge of determining policy about a controversial subject.

48 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:05am
49 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:06am

re: #29 Land Shark

Let's not forget Robert Spencer claims he was misled too when he signed up for that website that wanted the Greeks to re-assert control over land lost to the Turks and expel the current Muslim inhabitants.

Hellooo?! He claims he was set up to join by Charles and Cato the Elder! Worst analogy ever!

50 toadbelly  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:12am

But what were they so concerned about investigating in the first place? I mean isn't the truffer nonsense implied in demand for an inquest?

51 freedombilly  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:26am

Sadly, you can take any quotes from lefties from the last Presidency, replace the words "Bush Administration" with "Obama administration", and you've got exactly what the kook right wing nutjobs are saying today.

The Republicans look desperate and if they keep this up and the economy improves even slightly they will make no gains whatsoever in the midterm elections.

And that is in spite of one of the most incompetent beginnings to a Presidency that any of us has ever seen.

52 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:27am
Zinn sent me a curt email in response to a question of whether he’d intended to suggest Bush’s complicity in the attacks: “I did not sign a statement suggesting that ‘Bush had prior knowledge.’ I signed a statement calling for an investigation.”

What was the investigation supposed to uncover ?

53 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:45am
54 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:46am

re: #47 Athens Runaway

That's the nickname for him, but strictly speaking it's not a "czar" position. His full title is "Special Advisor for Green Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation at the White House Council on Environmental Equality."

Still, he had no Senate confirmation, and suffers no accountability to the public, etc. He's a bureaucrat, albeit a very high-ranking bureaucrat in charge of determining policy about a controversial subject.

"environmental equality"? WTF does that mean?

the environment has equal protection/representation under the law?

55 irongrampa  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:32:01am

Just lovin the continual flaps erupting with this administration. They're doing a better job hamstringing themselves than I'd originally hoped for.

I fervently hope they continue to follow this path--it'll make the balance of his term easier to endure, and may even limit the further damage Obama and his minions can accomplish.

56 StillAMarine  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:32:15am

re: #25 BlueCanuck

Well here's a little tidbit I discovered while searching the net this morning. All part of this web site. Pay attention to the picture at the top of the page on the first link.

Yup. I guess the kooks of various flavors bringing Ron Paul to mind is not so far off at all. I never cease to be amazed at some of the stupid, illogical,and untenable ideas some people see as the canonical wisdom. These people will not listen to reason. Sort of like a Democrat on steroids.

57 Kenneth  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:32:37am

Out of my pajamas and all cleaned up in a suit & tie... waiting for the women folk to get dressed...

I am pleased to see Van Jones has been vindicated and given the chance to explain how his name came to be on that petition, under false pretenses. He has also denounced the whole Truther movement.

I hope we have all learned from something from this incident, that we should never leap to condemn somebody on the basis of a circumstantial and unsubstantiated association with a disreputable group.

58 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:32:43am

re: #50 toadbelly

But what were they so concerned about investigating in the first place? I mean isn't the truffer nonsense implied in demand for an inquest?

Was Congress also a bunch of Truthers when they investigated 9/11?

Believing that there's more to be discovered is NOT the same as 9/11 Trutherism. I can't believe I even need to say that.

59 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:32:53am

re: #30 Chekote

Even if Van Jones steps down, does anyone here think that he still won't have Obama's ear?

I don't think he has ever had Obama's ear. So called "Green Jobs" was nothing but campaign rhetoric designed to appeal to folks worried about losing their jobs and to environmentalists. If Obama were truly concerned about "green jobs" why bail-out the auto companies which aren't exactly known for their stunning environmental record.

60 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:00am
61 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:07am

Regardless of this petition, I think he should step down for calling a large percent of Americans a-holes.

62 Rexatosis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:09am

Not really OT:

I for one am sick and tired of our politicians (on both sides of the aisle) whining how they didn't read what they signed or voted for and that's not what they really meant. If something comes across my desk and I sign off on it having not read or understood what I signed off on my ass is toast. That is how the real world works. You screw up by crimes of omission (I don't feel like reading what I am signing) you get FIRED! You get suckered into a bad business decision by a shady sales guy and don't read the contract you go BROKE! You don't get to whine, "It's not my fault." I have no sympathy for Van Jones in the least, he is an adult, he can read, so scr*w him (and all the rest of the whiners on both sides of the aisle).

63 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:11am

It will be interesting to hear what Dr. Krauthammer has to say. He called Van Jones actions psychotic paranoia.

64 freedombilly  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:21am

re: #52 SasquatchOnSteroids

What was the investigation supposed to uncover ?

Leprechauns and Unicorns.

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:34am

re: #23 Salamantis


I don’t necessarily think he ever really BELIEVED that 9-11 was ‘an inside job’; I just think that at the time and in the leftist moonbat circles he ran in, signing such a petition and being a member of such a committee was the kewl, anti-Bush thing to do. And the LAST thing he would wanna do would be to appear unkewl to his political droogiez.

Bingo, upding, etc.

I think the same is probably true of Lerner, who I know, or knew, some years ago. Just as people support Palin's 'death panels' BS because they feel that it's vaguely connected to some greater truth, so might these people have signed on to this BS because they felt that an 'investigation' would take some power out of the Bush administration's hands.

Dumbass, unworthy behavior, sure, but not surprising.

66 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:34:04am

re: #59 MJ

I don't think he has ever had Obama's ear. So called "Green Jobs" was nothing but campaign rhetoric designed to appeal to folks worried about losing their jobs and to environmentalists. If Obama were truly concerned about "green jobs" why bail-out the auto companies which aren't exactly known for their stunning environmental record.

They are noted to have a few UAW members over there though. Their "green" comes in little bills with dead Presidents on them.

67 Occasional Reader  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:34:21am

On the Ehrenfeld comparison; if, as in her case, the claim is that his name was used ENTIRELY without his knowledge; why doesn't Jones just bloody well say so?!

i am a lawyer, thus trained to spot weasel language. Jones' statement yesterday was weasel language. Looks to me like, on advice of counsel, he sought to distance himselc from something he DID sign, without opening the door to a libel suit by the Troofers if he were to falsely claim they forged his name.

68 JohnH  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:34:29am

re: #58 Charles

No, Congress wasn't. But what motivated the left in the investigation was that we had done it to ourselves as some govt plot.

69 freedombilly  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:34:30am

re: #57 Kenneth

Well spoken as always, Kenneth.

70 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:34:31am

All the Soft Nirthers wanna do is ask questions, and maybe have an investigation. All in the interests of troof, you understand...

/

71 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:34:31am

Please stop posting links to conspiracy websites!

72 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:34:58am

re: #63 HelloDare

It will be interesting to hear what Dr. Krauthammer has to say. He called Van Jones actions psychotic paranoia.

Doctor, heal thy self?

Jumping to conclusions should be an olympic sport.

73 Athens Runaway  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:18am

re: #54 ggt

"environmental equality"? WTF does that mean?

the environment has equal protection/representation under the law?

My guess: it's the moronic convergence of "social justice," race-hustling, and the Gaia-worship that passes for conservationism these days.

74 toadbelly  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:22am

re: #58 Charles

I don't think that's what they were asking to investigate. Congress was charged with investigating the entire issue, the attack, our response, our lack of foresight- all of that and that is reasonable.
Do we think Jeneanne Garoffolo and the other signatories was concerned about that or whether 911 was an inside job?

75 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:27am

re: #47 Athens Runaway

That's the nickname for him, but strictly speaking it's not a "czar" position. His full title is "Special Advisor for Green Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation at the White House Council on Environmental Equality."

Still, he had no Senate confirmation, and suffers no accountability to the public, etc. He's a bureaucrat, albeit a very high-ranking bureaucrat in charge of determining policy about a controversial subject.

And I have yet to see any qualification he has for such a position.

76 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:32am

re: #66 Desert Dog

They are noted to have a few UAW members over there though. Their "green" comes in little bills with dead Presidents on them.

Right! That's the kind of green we all can believe in.

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:53am

re: #24 Rexatosis

There is an old rule of thumb that one reads anything they are asked to sign in its entirety before they sign it. Doing so saves one much embarrassment later on.

I drive kids collecting signatures on the street CRAZY with that. I stand there, reading the whole thing. It annoys them greatly. I can see that, they're getting paid to get me to sign, not to take away their clipboard and read it. But I live in dread of accidentally signing some horrendous thing I haven't read.

78 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:54am

re: #76 MJ

Right! That's the kind of green we all can believe in.

I'll take some please!

79 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:36:20am

re: #78 Desert Dog

I'll take some please!

Me too.

80 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:36:30am

re: #74 toadbelly

I don't think that's what they were asking to investigate. Congress was charged with investigating the entire issue, the attack, our response, our lack of foresight- all of that and that is reasonable.
Do we think Jeneanne Garoffolo and the other signatories was concerned about that or whether 911 was an inside job?

Unlike some, I'm not prepared to pretend that I know what people are thinking.

81 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:36:31am

If you are going to have a green czar there are plenty of people way more qualified, some of my professors from the 1970 have been doing solar & green designing continually for 40 years.


"If you are not wise yourself you cannot be well advised."

— Niccolo Machiavelli

82 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:36:44am

re: #71 Charles

Please stop posting links to conspiracy websites!

Is mine in No. 60 considered such? It's not Rense.

83 Kenneth  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:36:53am

re: #69 freedombilly

Thank you. I hope everybody takes it to heart.

84 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:06am
85 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:14am

re: #54 ggt

"environmental equality"? WTF does that mean?

the environment has equal protection/representation under the law?

He wants to make sure all environments get equal protection, so forests can't discriminate against deserts, for example, or tundras against swamplands.
///

86 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:19am
87 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:25am

re: #82 MandyManners

Is mine in No. 60 considered such? It's not Rense.

Yes. ratical.com is as far out as they get.

88 Walter Cronanty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:36am

I posted this pdf document earlier re: STORM blaming U.S. government's "worldwide aggression" for 9/11 [Link: www.capitalresearch.org...] at p.28.
I have one question, if anyone knows the answer - Why does STORM reference the "bombings" on 9/11? Note that their document published "a couple of days after the attacks" is titled: "Four Main Points In Response to the Bombings of the World Trade Center & the U.S. Pentagon." Also, on the next page, the following is stated: "This document, produced so quickly after the bombings, provided leftists with an anti-imperialist lens through which to analyze the attacks." On the one hand, STORM references "attacks" on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. On the other, they keep referencing them as "bombings." Any ideas?

89 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:49am

re: #54 ggt

It goes to a discussion we had yesterday about environmental racism where emitters of pollution (power plants, factories, bus depots, etc.) were located in minority neighborhoods. It's another way to look at environmental control and nimbyism because minority neighborhoods roughly correspond with poor areas, which is attractive to businesses and government since it's cheaper to build stuff in those areas. So, those areas get more waste transfer sites, pollution emitters, etc.,

Jones is hardly alone in calling this environmental racism. There's a whole cottage industry grown up around the idea, and it's been around for a while.

90 ted  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:49am

Conspiracy Czar
By: Ben Johnson
FrontPageMagazine.com %P% Friday, September 04, 2009


IT MUST MARK A NEW LOW IN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY when the fact that someone is a self-described Communist is not the most damning thing that can be said of a presidential adviser entrusted with federal power. Not only is Green Jobs Czar Van Jones a 9/11 Truther, but his organization believes Hurricane Katrina was a Bush conspiracy, as well. His unique combination of radicalism and irresponsibility provides a remarkable window into Barack Obama’s own radicalism.

After a string of embarrassing revelations, yesterday the press reported that Jones had joined such notable leftists as Cynthia McKinney, Ralph Nader, and Howard Zinn in signing the 9/11 Truth Statement (signature #46), which called for a federal investigation whether President Bush knew about – or perhaps colluded in – the destruction of the World Trade Center. This is somewhat ironic, since on the evening after 9/11, Jones stood in the streets with the Maoist-communist organization he founded – Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement (STORM) – to denounce the United States for having brought the disaster on itself.

To this author’s knowledge, it has not yet been reported that Van Jones also popularized the belief that Hurricane Katrina was a conspiracy. The organization Color of Change, which he co-founded after Katrina, waged a campaign to censure President George W. Bush, claiming: “He knew about the levees, and he knew about the Superdome. But he did nothing.”(Emphasis in original.) In 2006, Color of Change worked with MoveOn.org Civic Action to screen Spike Lee’s film When the Levees Broke, which features allegations the federal government dynamited the levees. As one report puts it, “Lee took no side on the issue” – originally popularized by Nation of Islam minister Louis Farrakhan – but Lee made it clear in other media that he believes in the theory.

The conspiracy would be consistent with Jones’ statement last January, that “white polluters and the white environmentalists are essentially steering poison into the people-of-color communities, because they don't have a racial justice frame.”

In a 2005 blog on the Huffington Post, Jones wrote the hurricane had been exacerbated by Bush’s environmental policies and “deep contempt for poor African-Americans.”

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

91 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:00am

re: #85 Kosh's Shadow

He wants to make sure all environments get equal protection, so forests can't discriminate against deserts, for example, or tundras against swamplands.
///

ah!

92 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:00am
93 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:14am

I'm not going to send traffic to a site that promotes rense.com either. And Gateway Pundit is way way off the deep end these days.

94 Athens Runaway  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:32am

re: #50 toadbelly

But what were they so concerned about investigating in the first place? I mean isn't the truffer nonsense implied in demand for an inquest?

This is the argument that LuapNor-ites use to paint Michelle Malkin as "one of them." She criticized Luap Nor for his trutherism, Truthers dug up some quote from her from like 9/12/01 where she expressed an interest in getting the full story, therefore she is a hypocrite for criticizing them for "just asking questions."

That's a weak argument, and you should know better.

95 wahabicorridor  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:47am

The idea that Van Jones may have been punked by Medea Benjamen somehow gives me great joy.

heh

96 debutaunt  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:39:23am

re: #88 Walter Cronanty

I posted this pdf document earlier re: STORM blaming U.S. government's "worldwide aggression" for 9/11 [Link: www.capitalresearch.org...] at p.28.
I have one question, if anyone knows the answer - Why does STORM reference the "bombings" on 9/11? Note that their document published "a couple of days after the attacks" is titled: "Four Main Points In Response to the Bombings of the World Trade Center & the U.S. Pentagon." Also, on the next page, the following is stated: "This document, produced so quickly after the bombings, provided leftists with an anti-imperialist lens through which to analyze the attacks." On the one hand, STORM references "attacks" on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. On the other, they keep referencing them as "bombings." Any ideas?

Probably talking about the first attack.

97 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:16am

I posted this at the end of yesterday's Van Jones thread:

From my experience, during the Bush years nearly everyone one on the far-Left, in one way or another, entertained some form of trutherism. It was usually in the form of "asking questions" or saying things like, "well, with Bush and Cheney in office anything is possible". I know many otherwise sane people who, because they hated Bush so much, would ask, "why are they afraid of re-opening the investigation?" or " what have they got to hide". If you asked them directly, they would most likely deny that they believed that Bush was involved in 9/11, but then they would continue by talking about "unanswered questions" and would bring up truther arguments under the guise of "just asking questions...why are you so afraid of questions?".

This was very common behavior among people suffering from Bush Derangement for many years. I suspect that Van Jones falls into this category.

98 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:21am

re: #87 Charles

Yes. ratical.com is as far out as they get.

Sorry about that!

99 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:38am

re: #58 Charles

Was Congress also a bunch of Truthers when they investigated 9/11?

Believing that there's more to be discovered is NOT the same as 9/11 Trutherism. I can't believe I even need to say that.

Some people might want the Saudis investigated; others the Jooos.
I'd say that someone who wants an investigation into the Saudis isn't as far off the rails as someone who thinks Bush or the Jooos should be investigated.
I'm not saying that the Saudi government knew anything in advance about 9/11, just that since most of the hijackers were Saudi. at least asking for that investigation makes some kind of sense.

100 BlackFedora  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:39am

Truthers lie?! Truthers... LIE? I'm shocked. I'm absolutely SHOCKED and DISMAYED that Truthers wouldn't tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth 100% of the time.

The next thing you're going to tell me is that Loose Change is full of misleading information and that Alex Jones ir prone to bizarre leaps of logic!

Oh. my. god.

101 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:42am

Here sign on the bottom of this paper? What? Why? The top of the paper is blank. Trust us. We know what is best.

102 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:46am

I'm off to lunch. Back later.

103 JohnH  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:58am

When do we invoke the first Rule of Holes?

104 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:41:17am

re: #90 ted

Does STORM have a newspaper?

105 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:41:20am

re: #67 Occasional Reader

On the Ehrenfeld comparison; if, as in her case, the claim is that his name was used ENTIRELY without his knowledge; why doesn't Jones just bloody well say so?!

i am a lawyer, thus trained to spot weasel language. Jones' statement yesterday was weasel language. Looks to me like, on advice of counsel, he sought to distance himselc from something he DID sign, without opening the door to a libel suit by the Troofers if he were to falsely claim they forged his name.


Sad thing about lawyers. . .it takes a weasel to spot a weasel///

106 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:41:41am

re: #101 Perplexed

Here sign on the bottom of this paper? What? Why? The top of the paper is blank. Trust us. We know what is best.

No. If you had bothered to read the post above, you would have learned that they signed a document with a very different statement on it.

107 Shug  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:41:54am

We should drop all this and let Van Jones get back to stopping White people from poisoning the Earth and people of color.

his words, not mine

108 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:42:02am

Without Stinky's assistance Charles wouldn't have time to think, or comment. Thank you Stinky!

109 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:42:20am

re: #100 BlackFedora

Lying Truthers? What next Billy Mays convincing me to make a late night purchase for something I will never use?

110 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:42:20am

re: #97 Ringo the Gringo

It falls into the "Bush let it happen" among choices provided by pollsters, rather than the out and out "the government did it" nonsense.

Jones isn't out of mainstream Democrat party stuff here. It's part and parcel.

111 ckb  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:42:21am

re: #58 Charles

Was Congress also a bunch of Truthers when they investigated 9/11?

Believing that there's more to be discovered is NOT the same as 9/11 Trutherism. I can't believe I even need to say that.

You need to say it, because it is counter to what you have been saying about those simply asking for a Birth Certificate and college transcripts from the president. You equate that with "birtherism" continually.

And, you need to say it, because we are talking about 2004, not 2001. By 2004 all the investigating was thoroughly over.

In conclusion, I'm glad you said it. :)

112 ted  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:09am

re: #93 Charles

"And Gateway Pundit is way way off the deep end these days."

Curious as to how so?

Malkin and Allah seem to link him alot.

113 Walter Cronanty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:25am

re: #96 debutaunt
I kind of doubt that, as they reference how quickly they published the document after the bombings - and the actual bombing of the WTC took place in 1993, I believe.

114 beens21  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:36am

if for no other reason Jones should leave because he is no scholar. I read, or tried to read, his book Green Collar Economy after he was appted green czar to see what he had to say. Pure race based drivel, 2/3rds of the book was race based rants about Katrina, and the rest was incoherent raves about how we are about to die from imminent ecocatastrophe unless we hire prisoners to do green jobs like light rail transit.His resume is nothing more than a leftist community organizer. He has no trait to qualify him to be a green job czar.

115 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:39am

re: #101 Perplexed

Here sign on the bottom of this paper? What? Why? The top of the paper is blank. Trust us. We know what is best.

I wonder if the Nigerian email scammers have Van Jones' address.

116 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:42am

re: #101 Perplexed

Here sign on the bottom of this paper? What? Why? The top of the paper is blank. Trust us. We know what is best.

I generate rental contracts all day long. I'd say that out of 200 people who sign them about 1 person actually reads it. It has always amazed me.

117 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:49am

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Big difference: Spencer is an advocate for Christian reconquest of Turkey and links to groups advocating it on his blog. He has done this for years. He's clearly a supporter of the cause.

That he is. But there is a possibility Van Jones is a Truther and is lying now that he's been outed. After all, Truthers lie. Granted, as long as the only "proof" is coming from Truther sources I'm inclined to believe he's telling the truth on that subject until proven otherwise.

Then again, it seems Van Jones is a Commie and Commies do lie too.

What's our country coming to with all these lying whack jobs on the Left and the Right? Damn!

118 Chekote  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:51am

I do believe that in their zeal to attack Bush some people signed on without carefully reviewing the document. The lesson here is that it is best to just stay away from paranoid groups. Here in Texas I heard a lot about the North American Union cospirancy. As soon as I heard the words "North American Union", I would walk away. You can't reason with paranoid people.

119 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:53am

re: #112 ted

"And Gateway Pundit is way way off the deep end these days."

Curious as to how so?

Malkin and Allah seem to link him alot.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe the Hitler Youth pictures?

120 itellu3times  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:44:00am

re: #11 MJ

Whatever Michael Lerner says, take it with lots of salt.. That lunatic Keven Barrett has had Lerner up on his 911 truther web site for years and Lerner never dis-avowed it before now.

Lerner agreed to:

1. An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer
2. Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings.
3. Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence.
4. The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry.

It is fatuous for him to claim any of this was needed, if he believed that Islamic terrorists were responsible.

I am frankly surprised that Lerner or others want to distance themselves from anything at all. Maybe we're making progress after all. Next thing you know, Rosie O'Donell will visit a steel mill.

121 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:44:05am

I posted this earlier on the other tread but some might find it interesting:

Far-Right Site Gains Influence in Obama Era

Glenn Beck's Van Jones Smear Fueled by WoldNetDaily Reporting

On April 12, the conservative Website WorldNetDaily published an expose on newly appointed White House “green czar” Van Jones that labeled the environmental activists a “an admitted radical communist and black nationalist leader...”

[Link: washingtonindependent.com...]

122 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:44:17am

re: #111 ckb

The burden of proof is on the birthers not Obama.

123 opnion  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:44:33am

re: #107 Shug

We should drop all this and let Van Jones get back to stopping White people from poisoning the Earth and people of color.

his words, not mine

Well, "Republicans are A holes" is a nice bipartisan touch.

124 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:44:38am

re: #106 Charles

Same difference. People thought they signed one document only to have their signatures appear on another. IMHO that constitutes fraud on the part of the document handlers.

125 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:44:50am

Obama sure brought his own shovel ready projects to the show, that's is for sure.

Look, kids, it's a falling Czar !

126 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:45:09am

re: #114 beens21

if for no other reason Jones should leave because he is no scholar. I read, or tried to read, his book Green Collar Economy after he was appted green czar to see what he had to say. Pure race based drivel, 2/3rds of the book was race based rants about Katrina, and the rest was incoherent raves about how we are about to die from imminent ecocatastrophe unless we hire prisoners to do green jobs like light rail transit.His resume is nothing more than a leftist community organizer. He has no trait to qualify him to be a green job czar.

To Obama, that (bolded) is an excellent background.

127 ted  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:45:12am

re: #119 Charles

Oh, I don't know. Maybe the Hitler Youth pictures?

Makes sense...

128 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:45:14am

re: #111 ckb

You need to say it, because it is counter to what you have been saying about those simply asking for a Birth Certificate and college transcripts from the president.

No, it is not.

You equate that with "birtherism" continually.

It is birtherism.

129 Kenneth  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:45:45am

re: #122 Sharmuta

The burden of proof is on the birthers not Obama.

That's how it should be. The burden of truth rests on the accusers, not the accused. It is absurd to expect somebody should have to defend themselves against unfounded accusations.

130 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:45:54am

re: #124 Perplexed

Same difference. People thought they signed one document only to have their signatures appear on another. IMHO that constitutes fraud on the part of the document handlers.

That's right. It was fraudulent. But that doesn't seem to have any effect on some people's desire to believe otherwise.

131 MacDuff  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:24am

re: #114 beens21

His resume is nothing more than a leftist community organizer. He has no trait to qualify him to be a green job czar President.

Sorry, couldn't resist that one...

132 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:28am

Re: Van Jones,

Walter found something interesting in the last thread. Apparently, Mr. Jones is a fellow of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. I took a look at their website, and he is there, along with two other people. Anyone know if he is associated with them or not?

133 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:37am

re: #49 Sharmuta

Did I say I believe him? I don't. The evidence against him is on his site, as Kilgore Trout said. But it could be an applicable analogy, time will tell.

134 irish rose  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:42am

Good afternoon lizardia, happy Labor Day weekend!

135 Athens Runaway  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:49am

re: #125 SasquatchOnSteroids

Obama sure brought his own shovel ready projects to the show, that's is for sure.

Look, kids, it's a falling Czar !

Catch a falling czar an’ put it in your pocket,
Never let it fade away!
Catch a falling czar an’ put it in your pocket,
Save it for a rainy day!

For love may come an' tap you on the shoulder,
Some cz-less night!
Just in case you feel you wanna’ hold her,
You’ll have a pocketful of starlight!

//

136 cybermonk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:57am

re: #52 SasquatchOnSteroids

didn't Hillary question Bush by asking what did Bush know and when did he know it? Why isn't she being roasted for that? Just sayin'

137 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:08am

re: #132 Honorary Yooper

Re: Van Jones,

Walter found something interesting in the last thread. Apparently, Mr. Jones is a fellow of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. I took a look at their website, and he is there, along with two other people. Anyone know if he is associated with them or not?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

138 Dahveed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:13am

The nuts are running the asylum. Crazies on the left, crazies on the right and I feel like the reasonable ones are a becoming an ever shrinking minority.

139 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:19am

re: #103 JohnH

When do we invoke the first Rule of Holes?

As the Holey Book says, in the Book of Holes, Chapter 1:
And they knew not their holes from an ass on the ground.

/Firesign Theatre

140 Danny  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:21am

re: #134 irish rose

Good afternoon lizardia, happy Labor Day weekend!

Come on weekend!!

141 Kragar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:29am

re: #125 SasquatchOnSteroids

Obama sure brought his own shovel ready projects to the show, that's is for sure.

Look, kids, it's a falling Czar !

Cue up the Bad Company.

"Don't you know that you are a shooting czar? Don't you know? Don't you know?"

142 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:30am

re: #120 itellu3times

It is fatuous for him to claim any of this was needed, if he believed that Islamic terrorists were responsible.

I am frankly surprised that Lerner or others want to distance themselves from anything at all. Maybe we're making progress after all. Next thing you know, Rosie O'Donell will visit a steel mill.

"Rabbi" Elmer Berger Michael Lerner is so blinded by hatred of Israel and by his own ego that he'll camp anywhere and with anyone who will heap praise upon him.

143 Kenneth  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:36am

re: #130 Charles

That's right. It was fraudulent. But that doesn't seem to have any effect on some people's desire to believe otherwise.

That line is worth repeating, Charles.

That's right. It was fraudulent. But that doesn't seem to have any effect on some people's desire to believe otherwise.

144 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:50am

re: #133 Land Shark

No- it's not applicable because robert spencer was full of shit to suggest he was set up by Charles to join that group.

145 itellu3times  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:48:02am

re: #136 cybermonk

didn't Hillary question Bush by asking what did Bush know and when did he know it? Why isn't she being roasted for that? Just sayin'

I dunno, did she?

146 kiwiviv  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:48:15am

This on Fox this morning:

Democratic strategist and FOX News contributor Bob Beckel predicted that Jones would be out of a job by Labor Day, and he wondered how Jones got the "czar" post in the first place.

"He's got every right in the world to be a self-avowed communist, but the Secret Service would no more allow a self-avowed communist into the White House as they would Charlie Manson, so that's what I don't get," Beckel said.

"There's something more in here about the breakdown of the system. Yes, it broke down with the Obama administration, but it also broke down with those people who are responsible for doing the background check," he added.

147 Shug  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:48:38am

Van Jones in his own words.

148 calgrammy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:48:40am

Misled? Oh please. A Commie and a total whack job allowed access to the most powerful man in the USA.

149 Danny  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:48:58am

re: #145 itellu3times

Yes she did, but it was in reference to the pre-911 intelligence gathering.

150 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:49:03am

re: #140 Danny

Come on weekend!!

Please don't speed it up. I'm turning 39 on Sunday. Not looking forward to it.

151 opnion  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:49:32am

re: #129 Kenneth

That's how it should be. The burden of truth rests on the accusers, not the accused. It is absurd to expect somebody should have to defend themselves against unfounded accusations.

The guy was born in Hawaii. His citizenship is not the promlem, it is his
poicies & unfitness for office.

152 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:49:36am

re: #150 KenJen

Please don't speed it up. I'm turning 39 on Sunday. Not looking forward to it.

You'll be the same age as Jack Benny.

153 ted  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:49:38am

re: #130 Charles

That's right. It was fraudulent. But that doesn't seem to have any effect on some people's desire to believe otherwise.

Sorta like making your dying demented rich aunt sign her revised last will UPS deliverry...

154 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:49:51am

re: #152 Kosh's Shadow

You'll be the same age as Jack Benny.

Who?

155 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:50:24am

re: #148 calgrammy

Misled? Oh please. A Commie and a total whack job allowed access to the most powerful man in the USA.

How many accounts do you have registered at LGF?

156 Athens Runaway  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:50:27am

re: #154 KenJen

Who?

Geez, I'm in my 20s and even I know who he is.

157 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:50:30am

re: #144 Sharmuta

No- it's not applicable because robert spencer was full of shit to suggest he was set up by Charles to join that group.

Very good point. He's really full of it there.

158 itellu3times  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:50:35am

re: #149 Danny

Yes she did, but it was in reference to the pre-911 intelligence gathering.

Like WMD? Yeah, that sounds right.

Different game. Still malodorous, but different.

159 Wendya  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:04am

re: #11 MJ

Whatever Michael Lerner says, take it with lots of salt.. That lunatic Keven Barrett has had Lerner up on his 911 truther web site for years and Lerner never dis-avowed it before now.

I'm sure a lot of people have buyers remorse over signing on to what was seen at the time as a good cause. I suspect several years down the road we'll see birthers pretending they never really believed that as well.

160 AuldTrafford  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:20am
Please note: if Van Jones is forced to step down over the issue, I’m not going to be unhappy. He’s clearly much farther to the left than a presidential aide should be.

Well, if he's forced out - and he is innocent of the alleged ideology - isn't Barry being a bit less than courageous? Or fickle?

161 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:27am

re: #137 Charles

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Thanks. This, and not the words of a lying 9/11 Troofer site should be the concerns we have over Van Jones. The fact he follows pseudoscientific ideas and is further left than I or many here care for should be our concerns. Not this bunch of lying 9/11 Troofers who listed him on their site.

162 Kragar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:29am

re: #154 KenJen

Who?

Mr and Mrs Benny's pride and joy

163 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:44am

I've sat and watched the truther booth on the Venice Beach boardwalk as person after person walks up and takes some literature, talks with a truther at the table and eventually signs a petition to re-open the 9/11 investigation. Most of these folks are not truthers, they just hate Bush and would sign anything if they thought it would make him look bad.

That's just the way it is.

164 itellu3times  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:57am

re: #152 Kosh's Shadow

You'll be the same age as Jack Benny.

Me, too.

I try to give the same look when I claim it, too.

165 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:52:06am

re: #136 cybermonk

didn't Hillary question Bush by asking what did Bush know and when did he know it? Why isn't she being roasted for that? Just sayin'

I don't know. You wanna dress her down for the grilling ?

Have at it.

Eek.

166 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:52:09am

re: #160 AuldTrafford

Well, if he's forced out - and he is innocent of the alleged ideology - isn't Barry being a bit less than courageous? Or fickle?

I don't know why you'd expect anything else from any politician.

167 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:52:40am

Yikes.
A lot of the comments here are inches away from Fake But Accurate™.

168 AuldTrafford  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:52:42am

re: #166 Charles

Perhaps you're right. Too bad, though.

169 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:53:42am

re: #161 Honorary Yooper

Thanks. This, and not the words of a lying 9/11 Troofer site should be the concerns we have over Van Jones. The fact he follows pseudoscientific ideas and is further left than I or many here care for should be our concerns. Not this bunch of lying 9/11 Troofers who listed him on their site.

Please note that I was blowing the whistle on Van Jones' whacked out beliefs long before this issue came up.

There are plenty of real reasons to object to Van Jones. I seriously doubt that 9/11 Trutherism is one of them.

170 Wendya  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:53:45am

re: #23 Salamantis


I don’t necessarily think he ever really BELIEVED that 9-11 was ‘an inside job’; I just think that at the time and in the leftist moonbat circles he ran in, signing such a petition and being a member of such a committee was the kewl, anti-Bush thing to do. And the LAST thing he would wanna do would be to appear unkewl to his political droogiez.

This theory may account for many of the signatures on that petition.

171 debutaunt  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:53:48am

re: #166 Charles

I don't know why you'd expect anything else from any politician.

Any third political party should really be called, More of the Same, Suckers.

172 Danny  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:53:51am

re: #150 KenJen

Please don't speed it up. I'm turning 39 on Sunday. Not looking forward to it.

Whippersnapper! Happy B-day!

173 MacDuff  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:54:21am

re: #155 Charles

How many accounts do you have registered at LGF?

Uh oh. Busted!

174 cybermonk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:54:34am

re: #142 MJ

It should be noted that Michael Lerner is not a "Rabbi" as in someone who has attended an accredited Rabbinical institution. Any certification he has no doubt came from a cereal box.
He is basically a liar, a favorite of left wing causes and I don't believe him for a minute that he was lied to about the truther document.

175 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:04am

re: #159 Wendya

I'm sure a lot of people have buyers remorse over signing on to what was seen at the time as a good cause. I suspect several years down the road we'll see birthers pretending they never really believed that as well.

Lerner is Neturei Karta for liberals.

176 ckb  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:27am

Just want to get this straight:

Asking the president for additional information on his citizenship is kooky birtherism.

Asking the government in 2004 (well after all the reports were in and it was obvious too all what happened) to "investigate 9/11 more" is not kooky trutherism.

Am I on the right track?

177 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:30am

re: #174 cybermonk

It should be noted that Michael Lerner is not a "Rabbi" as in someone who has attended an accredited Rabbinical institution. Any certification he has no doubt came from a cereal box.
He is basically a liar, a favorite of left wing causes and I don't believe him for a minute that he was lied to about the truther document.

What about Rachel Ehrenfeld? Is she lying too?

178 MacDuff  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:31am

re: #169 Charles

Please note that I was blowing the whistle on Van Jones' whacked out beliefs long before this issue came up.

There are plenty of real reasons to object to Van Jones. I seriously doubt that 9/11 Trutherism is one of them.

It's perhaps the least of them, to be honest.

179 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:36am

re: #154 KenJen

Who?

Comic actor of many years ago who claimed to be 39 for many years.
Jack Benny

180 AuldTrafford  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:42am
Please note that I was blowing the whistle on Van Jones' whacked out beliefs long before this issue came up.

There are plenty of real reasons to object to Van Jones. I seriously doubt that 9/11 Trutherism is one of them.

And of how many of those real reasons, was President Obama unaware? And if he was, why wasn't he?

181 ted  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:46am

re: #169 Charles

"There are plenty of real reasons to object to Van Jones. I seriously doubt that 9/11 Trutherism is one of them."

He seems to come with alot of baggage...

182 KingKenrod  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:56:07am

re: #146 kiwiviv

This on Fox this morning:

Beckel is trying to deflect blame away from Obama by pointing a finger at Van Jones' vetters. But there's no way Obama didn't know about Van Jones radical connections.

183 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:56:24am

re: #176 ckb

Just want to get this straight:

Asking the president for additional information on his citizenship is kooky birtherism.

Asking the government in 2004 (well after all the reports were in and it was obvious too all what happened) to "investigate 9/11 more" is not kooky trutherism.

Am I on the right track?

I'm not going to play your stupid gotcha game. Bye now.

184 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:56:25am
185 Walter Cronanty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:56:34am

re: #163 Ringo the Gringo

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Van the man obviously hated, hates, Bush.

186 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:00am

I think this entire matter will be resolved in days. It is not just Fox anymore, whose ratings have gone thru the roof on this story, but also Jack Tapper.

187 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:13am

I don't even believe most politicians when they tell me that they're talking...

/

188 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:14am

I think it's a conspiracy. Van Jones has such a ridiculously sordid past, that they only way they could legitimately leave him there was to spin up this story that is so easily discredited. Then they can always roll their eyes and say "here we go again... remember the truther thing?"

189 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:20am

re: #183 Charles

I'm not going to play your stupid gotcha game. Bye now.

I'm stoopid and even I saw that coming.:)

190 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:28am

re: #185 Walter Cronanty

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Van the man obviously hated, hates, Bush.

So I take it that Van prefers Brazilians?

191 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:29am

re: #182 KingKenrod

Beckel is trying to deflect blame away from Obama by pointing a finger at Van Jones' vetters. But there's no way Obama didn't know about Van Jones radical connections.

Not the Van Jones I knew.
Not the Reverend Wright I knew.
Not the Tom Daschle I knew.
Not the...

192 ted  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:45am

re: #180 AuldTrafford

And of how many of those real reasons, was President Obama unaware? And if he was, why wasn't he?

That's what bothers me...

193 kiwiviv  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:47am

There are some reports this morning that Van Jones marched with truthers in 2002. Is that correct?

194 Kragar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:50am

re: #176 ckb

Just want to get this straight:

Asking the president for additional information on his citizenship is kooky birtherism.

Asking the government in 2004 (well after all the reports were in and it was obvious too all what happened) to "investigate 9/11 more" is not kooky trutherism.

Am I on the right track?

No

195 kansas  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:55am

A little humor. I had never seen this before.
Wiley Coyote the Lost Episode

196 Pupdawg  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:58am

It's a virtual Czar bizzare...hey, here's an idea, America needs more Czars! Then there will probably be more Czars looking for and getting defenders from both sides of the political pond like this clown.

Here are some potential Czar suggestions for BHO:

9-11 Truther Czar

Who dat is my baby's daddy or who dat gonna beat dem Saints Nirther Czar

Global Warming, Climate Change and Disco Czar

Cap-and-play-me-or-Trade-me Czar

HCR Trigger Czar

How-do-I-keep-my J-O-B Czar

Can't-afford-groceries Czar

Czarro Bizzaro

Hollywood Czar

Pro-Deficit Czar

Surplus Population Czar

Deep-sixnay Icksnay on the olday olksfay zarcay

Debt Czar

Car Wash Czar

HDTV Czar

Green Eggs and Ham Fast Cook Jobs Czar

Comrade Indoctrination Czar

MSM Czar (it can be an ABCzar, NBCzar, CzarBS, NYTimesCzar, CzarNN or MSNBCzar)

PTTP Czar (power to the prolitariate)

New Light Bulbs Czar

Wall Street Overseer Czar

Bank Dick Czar

Surgery Czar

Dental Czar

Pill Czar

Free-Zone Czar

Euro Czar

Czar-she-blows-save-the-whales Czar

Bi-polar Bears Czar

Snail Darter Czar

Canned-tuna-gone-bad Czar

Starz Czar

Scarz Czar

Czar Warz

Bad-boo-boo-guys (formerly known as terrorists) Czar

Anti-Israel Czar

Pro-Wrestling Czar

Shrimps-on-the-barbie Czarzie

Tax-em-on-the-air-they-breath Czar

Personal Pelosi Czarpalooza

I am sure there could always be more.

197 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:58:05am

re: #174 cybermonk

It should be noted that Michael Lerner is not a "Rabbi" as in someone who has attended an accredited Rabbinical institution. Any certification he has no doubt came from a cereal box.
He is basically a liar, a favorite of left wing causes and I don't believe him for a minute that he was lied to about the truther document.

Hi cybermonk. Haven't seen you in a long time.
Yes, I know which is why I always put quotation marks around "Rabbi" when talking about Lerner.
He no doubt saw the truther movement as a way of attacking Bush and, by association, Israel. It's his stock and trade. But you already knew that.

198 midwestgak  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:58:14am

re: #183 Charles

I'm not going to play your stupid gotcha game. Bye now.

I've noticed through the past year that many that get banned are of the class of 2004.

199 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:58:25am

re: #179 Kosh's Shadow

Comic actor of many years ago who claimed to be 39 for many years.
Jack Benny

Oh that Jack Benny. Thanks. I've never seen that man in my life.

200 ted  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:58:36am

re: #184 buzzsawmonkey

Porter!

Bellboy...

201 kansas  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:58:43am

re: #148 calgrammy

Oops, hit wrong button.

202 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:58:45am

Afternoon all! On this Van Jones stuff, I'm with Charles. In fact, I'd be just as happy to never hear about it again. Why? Sigh, because the boys at the watering hole had Glenn Beck on yesterday afternoon, and it wasn't pretty.

Pretty? Hell, it was downright ugly. For those of you guys lucky enough to have had something more pleasant (like a spinal tap) to do, and missed the debacle, Beck started the hour saying he had a revelation about Jones that would shake the world...or some such hype. Then he says he's contacted the White House for a comment, and to be "fair" he won't reveal this earth-shaking news until the half-hour. THEN he puts up a freaking countdown clock. THEN, he sits there with this look of agony on his face - like he can't believe the White House is going to force him to do this. THEN, he actually begs the White House to call. THEN, when his little Dumbsday Clock ticks down to zero, he - goes to commercial.

And when he gets back? Yep, it's the 9/11Trufer crap that had been on the Fox News web site about all damn day. Oooga booga!

To say Beck jumped the shark for just about all the gang who hadn't already thought he was loopy would be an understatement. He didn't jump the shark, he jumped the whale shark. No, a whole school of great whites. No, wait, that big mechanical shark Bruce from Jaws.

From now on, the boys are plannin' to watch reruns of Bridezilla instead.

203 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:59:00am

re: #177 Charles

What about Rachel Ehrenfeld? Is she lying too?

I absolutely believe Rachel Ehrnefeld.

204 cybermonk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:59:11am

re: #177 Charles

I don't have the info to say yes she is or no she isn't. I do know Lerner though and he is as kooky and new age as they come.

205 Danny  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:59:56am

re: #198 midwestgak

I've noticed through the past year that many that get banned are of the class of 2004.

Uh oh.

206 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:04am

re: #132 Honorary Yooper

Re: Van Jones,

Walter found something interesting in the last thread. Apparently, Mr. Jones is a fellow of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. I took a look at their website, and he is there, along with two other people. Anyone know if he is associated with them or not?

Charles first posted about Jones on 7/21.

207 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:21am
208 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:21am

re: #188 cliffster

I think it's a conspiracy. Van Jones has such a ridiculously sordid past, that they only way they could legitimately leave him there was to spin up this story that is so easily discredited. Then they can always roll their eyes and say "here we go again... remember the truther thing?"

Did you forget a sarc tag?

209 Pupdawg  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:32am

re: #196 Pupdawg

Pardon my poor spelling...forgot to check spelling before posting it.

210 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:40am

Charles,

I have a concern about one item that hasn't quite gotten discussion re: rense.com and the other conspiracy sites. If you're a troofer and you're espousing your views, where else would you be posting those thoughts? Where else would they be cataloged? We're left in a bind over not trusting conspiracy sites that claim Jones signed on to their letter because those sites routinely lie about items, and his admission that he didn't read something put before him from the group. That's a great set of choices.

I think it's safe to say Jones ran in these circles - which also including the Troofers. Quite likely it was the fashionable thing to do - appear at anti-war anti-Bush gatherings and the like, where the troofers also gathered. That several sources link him with troofer statements is interesting - a sidebar to the main act - the loony eco-leftist agenda he's pursuing.

211 ted  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:44am

re: #205 Danny

Uh oh.

Gulp...

212 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:55am

re: #206 MandyManners

Charles first posted about Jones on 7/21.

He reminded us back there (after my comment). I had forgotten. My bad.

213 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:01:28am

re: #209 Pupdawg

Pardon my poor spelling...forgot to check spelling before posting it.

You should have seen this place before there was a spell checker.

214 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:01:52am

re: #195 kansas

A little humor. I had never seen this before.
Wiley Coyote the Lost Episode

LOL 1000 updings

215 callahan23  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:02:07am

re: #198 midwestgak

I've noticed through the past year that many that get banned are of the class of 2004.

It is the 'first' class as before there was no registration, alas all Lizards registered who where posting before that. That 2004 class is huge.
Hi midwestgal, how you doin' ?

216 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:02:39am

re: #213 MJ

You should have seen this place before there was a spell checker.

Poepel aktooalley youse teh speelchekr?

217 omahadad  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:03:01am

Fair enough. I have no doubt most of the "signatories" (if such an animal is possible with an online petition) agreed with the gist of the document without necessarily buying into the details. There seems to be little doubt, however, that Van Jones at least felt complicity by the Bush administration in the attack was plausible. This lack of judgment is evident in many other of his public statements, and his continued merging of Marxist rhetoric and (IMO) environmental radicalism.

I don't know where a "Green Jobs 'Czar'" falls in the pecking order of this administration, and maybe there are more important things to worry about. However, these guys continue to pop up in Pres Obama's circle. At some point, we have to recognize it's not an accident.

One and done, please.

218 Pupdawg  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:03:25am

re: #207 buzzsawmonkey

Czardoz

Czardoz

Czardoz

Czarsbythebakersdozen

219 turn  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:03:46am

re: #23 Salamantis

"I don’t necessarily think he ever really BELIEVED that 9-11 was ‘an inside job’; I just think that at the time and in the leftist moonbat circles he ran in, signing such a petition and being a member of such a committee was the kewl, anti-Bush thing to do. And the LAST thing he would wanna do would be to appear unkewl to his political droogiez."

Right on Sal!

Hey there lizards, turn doesn't normally pass on the chain email I get from the MIL but I'm sharing this one:

THE PROGRAM:


On Friday, September 11th, 2009, an American flag should be displayed
outside every home, apartment, office, and store in the United States . Every individual should make it their duty to display an American flag on this eighth anniversary of one of our country's worst tragedies. We do this to honor those who lost their lives on 9/11, their families, friends and loved ones who continue to endure the pain, and those who today are fighting at home and abroad to preserve our cherished freedoms.
In the days, weeks and months following 9/11, our country was bathed in American flags as citizens mourned the incredible losses and stood
shoulder-to-shoulder against terrorism. Sadly, those flags have all but
disappeared. Our patriotism pulled us through some tough times and it
shouldn't take another attack to galvanize us in solidarity. Our American flag is the fabric of our country and together we can prevail over terrorism of all kinds.


Action Plan:

So, here's what we need you to do.

(1) Forward this email to everyone you know (at least 11 people). Please don't be the one to break this chain. Take a moment to think back to how you felt on 9/11 and let those sentiments guide you..

(2) Fly an American flag of any size on 9/11. Honestly, Americans should fly the flag year-round, but if you don't, then at least make it a priority on this day.

Thank you for your participation. God Bless You and God Bless America !

220 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:03:46am

Is anybody familiar with the East Bay Express?

By the time the final speaker addressed the crowd, people shuffled restlessly in their seats as a lone infant wailed. Van Jones, a tall, dark-skinned man wearing a "Kanye was right" T-shirt under his black blazer, seemed to have little in common with his audience of predominately white hippies. Feeling the energy in the room ebbing straight from the stage, he later said, Jones decided to throw out the talk he had planned to deliver about the work of his human-rights organization, the Ella Baker Center. Instead, he asked the name of the squalling baby. "Tavio," the mother replied.


[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Hat tip to Pianobuff.

221 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:03:47am

Speaking of conspiracy theories, I can't help but wonder what our world would be like if The Phantom Menace had actually been a good movie. Absent that disaster, we might still have faith in both Lucas and special effects, Star Wars quotes would still be cool, and our cultural dominance of the world would still be intact. The tremendous stupidity of that movie despite its multiple layers of review could only have been intentional, and so the truth is known: George Lucas intentionally gave Darth Vader a backstory involving the immaculate conception of his mother in order to shame and ultimately destroy all the works of Western Civilization. We've never recovered.

222 kiwiviv  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:03:54am

Is it true that Van Jones marched with truthers in San Fran 2002?

223 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:04:18am

re: #216 Honorary Yooper

Poepel aktooalley youse teh speelchekr?

I need the dropped word checker. I'm constantly doing that.

224 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:04:30am

I honestly don't think there was anything wrong with the initial wave of folks wanting an investigation into 9/11- and I mean the ones who accepted it was an attack. The American People had a right to ask for it- to know why this happened, and so we could learn how to stop it in the future. The 9/11 Commission wasn't a bad thing. I can't condemn people who wanted to know how this could happen. I honestly think it's a question we probably all had:

How could this happen?

I know I had that question- but I never thought it was anything other than an attack from radical islamists. Calls for an investigation are not trooferism. Thinking it was an inside job is.

225 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:04:32am

re: #212 Honorary Yooper

He reminded us back there (after my comment). I had forgotten. My bad.

Once I saw how far behind I was, I gave up.

226 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:05:49am

re: #210 lawhawk

Charles,

I have a concern about one item that hasn't quite gotten discussion re: rense.com and the other conspiracy sites. If you're a troofer and you're espousing your views, where else would you be posting those thoughts? Where else would they be cataloged? We're left in a bind over not trusting conspiracy sites that claim Jones signed on to their letter because those sites routinely lie about items, and his admission that he didn't read something put before him from the group. That's a great set of choices.

I think it's safe to say Jones ran in these circles - which also including the Troofers. Quite likely it was the fashionable thing to do - appear at anti-war anti-Bush gatherings and the like, where the troofers also gathered. That several sources link him with troofer statements is interesting - a sidebar to the main act - the loony eco-leftist agenda he's pursuing.

The point is that if Van Jones were actually a Truther, there would be evidence of it somewhere other than conspiracy websites. He certainly had no problem spouting off about all kinds of other far left causes. I searched for hours yesterday to try to find credible evidence that he has ever supported Trutherism, and found nothing.

But then, when I see stuff at rense.com, I automatically put it in the "kook" pile. Others don't seem to have that problem.

227 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:05:54am

re: #199 KenJen

Oh that Jack Benny. Thanks. I've never seen that man in my life.

An interesting story I read in Mel Blanc's autobiography.
Jack Benny had a radio show, a sitcom of sorts. In it (and in the TV show that followed), he had a black butler.
When the show was on the road, they stopped at a hotel in the south; this was back in the days of segregation. When the hotel would not let the black actor in, Jack Benny took the whole cast and left.

228 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:00am

re: #59 MJ

He's a protege of Obama's Harry Hopkins, Valerie Jarrett.

229 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:03am

re: #208 HelloDare

Did you forget a sarc tag?

/ better? :^)

230 charles_martel  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:19am

re: #10 iceweasel

I refuse to employ sarc tags for the irony-deficient.

Then it's your responsibility to administer irony supplements.

231 midwestgak  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:25am

re: #215 callahan23

It is the 'first' class as before there was no registration, alas all Lizards registered who where posting before that. That 2004 class is huge.
Hi midwestgal, how you doin' ?

Hey {callahan}. Thanks for the info. I'm doing good.

232 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:36am

Never sign anything with large blank spots. Never sign anything until you have been given time to read and consider.

233 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:38am

re: #202 subsailor68

Afternoon all! On this Van Jones stuff, I'm with Charles. In fact, I'd be just as happy to never hear about it again. Why? Sigh, because the boys at the watering hole had Glenn Beck on yesterday afternoon, and it wasn't pretty.

Pretty? Hell, it was downright ugly. For those of you guys lucky enough to have had something more pleasant (like a spinal tap) to do, and missed the debacle, Beck started the hour saying he had a revelation about Jones that would shake the world...or some such hype. Then he says he's contacted the White House for a comment, and to be "fair" he won't reveal this earth-shaking news until the half-hour. THEN he puts up a freaking countdown clock. THEN, he sits there with this look of agony on his face - like he can't believe the White House is going to force him to do this. THEN, he actually begs the White House to call. THEN, when his little Dumbsday Clock ticks down to zero, he - goes to commercial.

And when he gets back? Yep, it's the 9/11Trufer crap that had been on the Fox News web site about all damn day. Oooga booga!

To say Beck jumped the shark for just about all the gang who hadn't already thought he was loopy would be an understatement. He didn't jump the shark, he jumped the whale shark. No, a whole school of great whites. No, wait, that big mechanical shark Bruce from Jaws.

From now on, the boys are plannin' to watch reruns of Bridezilla instead.

He's taking lessons from Geraldo Rivera.
What, the vault is empty?

234 Danny  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:45am

re: #224 Sharmuta

The 9/11 Commission wasn't a bad thing.

Maybe not in principle.

235 cybermonk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:22am

re: #232 EmmmieG

You mean like a stimulus package?

236 Rexatosis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:22am

# 37 Charles

I agree with you there was probably misrepresentation with regard to the "petition" but there is, in my opinion, a large element of responsibility among the signers (those whose names were placed there by third parties are of course excluded). The petition creators, like grifters, know where their "suckers" are and set their bait accordingly. It is the responsibility of the "sucker" not to get "hooked." Van Jones is not elderly nor in diminished capacity. He should know better.

237 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:27am

So just to put this in proper perspective... The right wing pundits who were so ruthlessly using this story on a false witch hunt are so desperate to win that the truth does not matter one jot.

But we knew that with the Birthers.

We knew that with the Deathers

We knew that with Obama going to take your guns.

We knew that with Obama going to take over the internet.

We knew that with the false claims that Obama is an anti-white racist.

What else is new?

G-d forbid the right try to win on a principled stand based in fact.

Oh, and now the right wants to cut and run from Afghanistan and Iraq too. Groovy. I seem to recall all sorts of speechifying that Obama was the antichrist for wanting to get out of the mess... Perhaps they honestly think that my memory is that short.

Why anyone trusts the rightwing punditsphere to say anything even remotely true these days is beyond me. I have little patience for those without honor.

And just to pre-empt - every democratic lie in history does not excuse these lies. I don't care how much anyone hates the Dems or wants to complain about them. It does not make this smell any more pretty. A dead fish in the room does not remove the oder of a different pile of manure.

238 callahan23  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:28am

re: #227 Kosh's Shadow

An interesting story I read in Mel Blanc's autobiography.
Jack Benny had a radio show, a sitcom of sorts. In it (and in the TV show that followed), he had a black butler.
When the show was on the road, they stopped at a hotel in the south; this was back in the days of segregation. When the hotel would not let the black actor in, Jack Benny took the whole cast and left.

Jack Benny a true 'mensch' !

239 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:38am

In a stunning development, Van Jones is also a supporter of Mumia Abu Jamal.

Supporters of Mumia Abu-Jamal, a death row inmate convicted for the 1981 shooting death of a Philadelphia police officer, said the protest was called after the Supreme Court on Monday rejected claims that Abu-Jamal, a former radio journalist and Black Panther, did not receive a fair trial.

``We knew there was another event going on, but the timing of the court decision is what dictated when the protest was held,'' said Van Jones, a San Francisco civil rights lawyer who helped coordinate the protest march.

240 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:58am

What's really should be bothering American citizens is that Obama is assembling a shadow government of Czars making decisions and advising the President on major issues without any Congressional oversight. People who only answer to him. People who might be disqualified if subjected to the usual process we've seen in the past. Jones is merely the most obviously objectionable of the bunch. I've never seen a President appoint so many Czars, did Russia even have as many Czars in it's history?

Meanwhile the so called journalists in the MSM slumber on...

241 opnion  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:08:01am

re: #222 kiwiviv

Is it true that Van Jones marched with truthers in San Fran 2002?

Laura Ingraham is saying that he "allegedly"
signed a truther petition that was delivered to Diane Feinsteins office.
She has a copy.

242 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:08:13am

re: #226 Charles

The point is that if Van Jones were actually a Truther, there would be evidence of it somewhere other than conspiracy websites. He certainly had no problem spouting off about all kinds of other far left causes. I searched for hours yesterday to try to find credible evidence that he has ever supported Trutherism, and found nothing.

But then, when I see stuff at rense.com, I automatically put it in the "kook" pile. Others don't seem to have that problem.

That is because they want to believe it.

243 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:08:59am

re: #239 JammieWearingFool

In a stunning development, Van Jones is also a supporter of Mumia Abu Jamal.

As I've been saying, there are plenty of valid reasons to criticize Van Jones.

244 kiwiviv  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:09:53am

re: #241 opnion

Laura Ingraham is saying that he "allegedly"
signed a truther petition that was delivered to Diane Feinsteins office.
She has a copy.

The "Weekly Standard" is talking about that as well:

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

I was just wanting know if this has been confirmed

245 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:09:54am

re: #233 Kosh's Shadow

He's taking lessons from Geraldo Rivera.
What, the vault is empty?

There's another goofball FNC has on staff. Yet another good reason not to watch FNC.

246 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:11:21am

re: #244 kiwiviv

The "Weekly Standard" is talking about that as well:

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

I was just wanting know if this has been confirmed

That document is the same one that's at Rense. It was to be delivered to Feinstein Office.

247 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:11:27am

re: #226 Charles

The point is that if Van Jones were actually a Truther, there would be evidence of it somewhere other than conspiracy websites. He certainly had no problem spouting off about all kinds of other far left causes. I searched for hours yesterday to try to find credible evidence that he has ever supported Trutherism, and found nothing.

But then, when I see stuff at rense.com, I automatically put it in the "kook" pile. Others don't seem to have that problem.

What about that WAR TIMES document? Does it prove anything?

248 blangwort  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:11:29am

re: #77 SanFranciscoZionist

It reminds me of Penn and Teller when they went to a Greenie Activist group and got them to sign a petition against the use of the chemical dihydrogen monoxide. Those dimwits didn't understand what they were signining, either.

249 Lincolntf  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:11:58am

re: #239 JammieWearingFool

Okay, now I'm thisclose to declaring that I officially think VJ will step down/feel the bus tires.
Not 100% yet, but it looks real bad for him.

250 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:12:01am

re: #9 baier

You'd think people would be more careful about what they sign their names to. I agree they probably didn't have any idea about what they were agreeing to, but i have little sympathy for them.

If they were told they were signing something very specific - which they were - and those collecting their signatures then attached the signatures to a completely different document, that's fraud on the part of the collectors. It doesn't even begin to extend to culpability of any sort on the part of the signers. The only thing it means is that those signing were misled and defrauded. They signed one document, only to have their signatures attached to another. There's nothing they could have done to be more "careful"; they got screwed over by a group which specializes in screwing people over.

251 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:12:18am

re: #243 Charles

It's reaching critical mass with this guy. Start the pool now. I'll take Saturday night when Jones gets thrown under the bus van.

252 meh130  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:12:25am

Once the Van is thrown under the bus, I want to apply for the GreenJobsCzar(tm) position.

My platform is to put every out of work construction worker in the U.S. to work building new nuclear power plants.

253 kiwiviv  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:12:35am

re: #246 MJ

That document is the same one that's at Rense. It was to be delivered to Feinstein Office.

Ok - thanks.

254 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:12:37am

re: #245 Honorary Yooper

There's another goofball FNC has on staff. Yet another good reason not to watch FNC.

That's why I change channels when Jerry Rivers comes on. Any suggestions for a news organization that has 100%, reliable reporters?

255 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:12:41am

re: #242 LudwigVanQuixote

That is because they want to believe it.

This is where anti-intellectualism takes its greatest toll. Folks don't want to gather evidence and base their conclusions on such. They form their hypothesis and look for evidence to fit their pre-existing conclusion. It's really amazing how much not teaching science and the scientific method affects the ability of society to think critically.

256 midwestgak  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:12:42am

re: #248 blangwort

It reminds me of Penn and Teller when they went to a Greenie Activist group and got them to sign a petition against the use of the chemical dihydrogen monoxide. Those dimwits didn't understand what they were signining, either.

Could be a word.

257 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:13:04am

re: #244 kiwiviv

The "Weekly Standard" is talking about that as well:

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

I was just wanting know if this has been confirmed

All of these stories are based on a page at the hate site rense.com. There's no independent confirmation of that.

258 kansas  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:13:21am

re: #214 Creeping Eruption

LOL 1000 updings

Glad you liked it.

259 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:13:42am

re: #239 JammieWearingFool

In a stunning development, Van Jones is also a supporter of Mumia Abu Jamal.

15 protesters. Wow.

260 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:14:15am

re: #245 Honorary Yooper

Do you remember the wall to wall coverage Fox news gave the whole Ana Nicole Smith death story? Anyone who thinks Fox News is a respectable news source after that spectacle is loony tunes.

I forgot about that whole Geraldo Rivera and the Al Capone vault thing. And Fox still considers him a journalist? Nuff' said.

261 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:14:33am

re: #251 JammieWearingFool

It's reaching critical mass with this guy. Start the pool now. I'll take Saturday night when Jones gets thrown under the bus van.

I say tonight, after 6:00pm.

262 redmonkey  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:14:43am

Victor Davis Hanson words:

The problems with Van “change the system” Jones are not just his serial slurs against much of American society (“an apartheid regime”) as we know it (e.g., capitalism, the coal industry, American farming, the white population, the Bush administration (for causing 9/11), the Republican “***holes”, etc. — but that he simply cannot tell the truth about his own history, in disavowing almost everything he has said, written, or signed in the recent past. (His involvement with the 9/11 “Bush did it” lunacy has a heritage beyond just his written endorsement).

Worse still, by its own admission, the Obama administration seems to have monitored Jones and selected him for his czardom precisely because of, not despite, his flamboyant past.

corner.nationalreview.com...]>

263 blangwort  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:14:46am

re: #256 midwestgak

Aw shucks, I knew I should have spell checked that post...

264 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:14:55am

re: #245 Honorary Yooper

There's another goofball FNC has on staff. Yet another good reason not to watch FNC.

Hi Yoop! Yeah, sigh, it's really gotten painful. About the only ones I can watch anymore are Bret Baier and Chris Wallace.

I really miss Brit Hume - and especially Tony Snow.

265 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:15:06am
266 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:15:28am

Just my personal opinion--when a website has a black background, and is ugly and is visually screaming--

Don't buy anything, and don't believe anything.

267 kiwiviv  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:15:30am

re: #257 Charles

All of these stories are based on a page at the hate site rense.com. There's no independent confirmation of that.

Thanks, I appreciate the help - I had been looking for confirmation of this story. We need something more than the word of a hate site.

268 captdiggs  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:15:33am

Overall, I just think that this is all akin to Obama sitting in a church for 20 years and never once hearing the anti-American, anti-semitic rants of the pastor he called his "mentor".
Obama likes his leftist wacko friends and advisors...until they have to be thrown under the bus for political convenience.

269 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:15:55am

If Van Jones gets thrown under the bus, this whole Truther business will be used by some to discredit his critics and take attention away from Jones' true radical beliefs.

270 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:16:51am

re: #217 omahadad

I have no doubt most of the "signatories" (if such an animal is possible with an online petition) agreed with the gist of the document without necessarily buying into the details.

No. Two of the people in the article above said they were deliberately misled, and signed a document that did not contain any Truther crap. The third person says she never signed anything at all.

There seems to be little doubt, however, that Van Jones at least felt complicity by the Bush administration in the attack was plausible.

Where do you get this conclusion? Find a source that confirms he believes this, that ISN'T a conspiracy hate site, and I'll agree with you. I tried, and found nothing. Maybe you'll have better luck.

271 Diego  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:16:55am

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

So just to put this in proper perspective... The right wing pundits who were so ruthlessly using this story on a false witch hunt are so desperate to win that the truth does not matter one jot.

But we knew that with the Birthers.

We knew that with the Deathers

We knew that with Obama going to take your guns.

We knew that with Obama going to take over the internet.

We knew that with the false claims that Obama is an anti-white racist.

What else is new?

G-d forbid the right try to win on a principled stand based in fact.

Oh, and now the right wants to cut and run from Afghanistan and Iraq too. Groovy. I seem to recall all sorts of speechifying that Obama was the antichrist for wanting to get out of the mess... Perhaps they honestly think that my memory is that short.

Why anyone trusts the rightwing punditsphere to say anything even remotely true these days is beyond me. I have little patience for those without honor.

And just to pre-empt - every democratic lie in history does not excuse these lies. I don't care how much anyone hates the Dems or wants to complain about them. It does not make this smell any more pretty. A dead fish in the room does not remove the oder of a different pile of manure.

Here, here! Updinged!

272 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:17:26am

re: #260 Land Shark

Do you remember the wall to wall coverage Fox news gave the whole Ana Nicole Smith death story? Anyone who thinks Fox News is a respectable news source after that spectacle is loony tunes.

I forgot about that whole Geraldo Rivera and the Al Capone vault thing. And Fox still considers him a journalist? Nuff' said.

Don't get me going about Geraldo. However, the Capone thing wasn't produced by Fox ( which I don't think existed back then). Both ABC and MSNBC thought Geraldo was a journalist which just goes to prove that all of them are crap.

273 redmonkey  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:17:35am

Sorry, messed with link

VDH

274 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:18:00am

Um, dear Van was also part of the organizing committee of a Troofer rally in January 2002.

Jeez, isn't it bad enough that this guy is a proud commie dedicated to the destruction of capitalism? That's an automatic fail by itself.

It's just icing on the cake that this wingnut is also a Free-Mumiyah moonbat and a Bush-dynamited-the-levees Katrina Troofer.

275 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:18:03am

re: #269 HelloDare

If Van Jones gets thrown under the bus, this whole Truther business will be used by some to discredit his critics and take attention away from Jones' true radical beliefs.

Agreed. It's not much different than the "victory" on end of life counseling. It came without honor, based on distortions. But it won't stop the high fives. Hooray for honor-less victory!

276 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:18:55am

Tom Daschle is still around.

Half run over, I guess.

277 Lincolntf  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:19:32am

re: #273 redmonkey

Ouch!

278 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:19:38am

re: #269 HelloDare

If Van Jones gets thrown under the bus, this whole Truther business will be used by some to discredit his critics and take attention away from Jones' true radical beliefs.

I don't know. The fact that his pseudo-scientific background should have utterly disqualified him from consideration will linger as well. I also think the video of him equating President Bush with a "crackwhore" will be way up there on the list of what helped take down Van Jones.

279 efuseakay  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:19:42am

If troofers lie, wouldn't they be lying about being lied to/tricked? I'm just sayin'...

Anyways... there's a lot more about this guy... he helped coordinate a protest in support of Mumia.

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

280 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:19:45am

re: #255 Sharmuta

This is where anti-intellectualism takes its greatest toll. Folks don't want to gather evidence and base their conclusions on such. They form their hypothesis and look for evidence to fit their pre-existing conclusion. It's really amazing how much not teaching science and the scientific method affects the ability of society to think critically.

That is so very true. I think I wrote the other day that Americans rarely let facts get in the way of justifying themselves...

Or to quote the great D'lenn (who was paraphrasing Talmud, I really love JMS)

Bad news travels faster than good news because we expect it to be true.

In this case though, people want it to be true. This ceased about being what is good for America a long time ago. It's just an angry grudge match from spoiled kids. Winning is more important than actually being the better person.

There used to be the notion that if you get whupped, you work harder and do better next time. That used to be a core conservative value, and there used to be a time when people when pop would take you out to the whipping shed for behaving like this - so you would straighten up and fly right. That sort of thing used to be conservative values.

We have to accept the reality that American conservatives are just as fat, lazy and stupid - filled with the same whiny sense of entitlement - as the moonbats these days. The only real difference is that the moonbats at least think of others from time to time. On a moral level I will take whiny, stupid and compassionate over whiny, stupid and mean any day.

281 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:20:12am

re: #274 solicitr

Um, dear Van was also part of the organizing committee of a Troofer rally in January 2002.

I'm still waiting for proof of this claim that doesn't come from a conspiracy hate site.

282 tfc3rid  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:20:31am

Here is an article Van Jones posted at HuffPo where he talked about how the Bush Administration's criminal neglect of their duties led to the deaths in New Orleans in Katrina... Nutball.

Bush's Role in the Drowning of New Orleans

283 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:20:47am

Why we should stay the course in Afghanistan (and surge more troops there):

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

284 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:20:48am

re: #274 solicitr

Can you provide a linky or some other way to confirm he was part of an organizing comittee for a Truther rally in 2002?

285 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:20:55am
286 MacDuff  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:20:58am

Instead of being distracted by whether Van Jones is a Truther, let's take the shorter route:

Are there any reasonable, competent MODERATES in positions of real influence in this administration? Maybe Leon Panetta, but he's about to get his ass fried in the CIA witch hunt.

I don't think it's a problem with the "vetting process" as Bob Beckel purports, I think it's a problem with the direction that this administration has selected and the people it has purposely chosen to get it there. When this country elected a man of the Left like Obama, who the hell did we think he would appoint?

287 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:21:31am

re: #271 Diego

Here, here! Updinged!

Thank you. BTW while the right is chasing it's tail with this...

Iran is still building a nuke...

Remember that?

Ohhh... and Russia is re-arming...

Remember that?

PATHETIC.

288 Lincolntf  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:22:23am

re: #286 MacDuff

The "I didn't know" excuse gets real old real quick, whether dealing with appointments made or petitions signed.

289 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:22:27am

re: #236 Rexatosis

# 37 Charles

I agree with you there was probably misrepresentation with regard to the "petition" but there is, in my opinion, a large element of responsibility among the signers (those whose names were placed there by third parties are of course excluded). The petition creators, like grifters, know where their "suckers" are and set their bait accordingly. It is the responsibility of the "sucker" not to get "hooked." Van Jones is not elderly nor in diminished capacity. He should know better.

If you sign a document, and your signature is slapped onto a completely different document, how does that make the signer culpable for what the second document states?

290 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:22:28am

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

So just to put this in proper perspective... The right wing pundits who were so ruthlessly using this story on a false witch hunt are so desperate to win that the truth does not matter one jot.

Oh, stop it, Mad King Ludwig. Van Jones is a commie and a moonbat. End of story. Why do you defend this anti-American creep? Is it because he serves the Messiah? Or do defend him *because* he's a commie?

291 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:23:06am

re: #280 LudwigVanQuixote

We have to accept the reality that American conservatives are just as fat, lazy and stupid - filled with the same whiny sense of entitlement - as the moonbats these days. The only real difference is that the moonbats at least think of others from time to time. On a moral level I will take whiny, stupid and compassionate over whiny, stupid and mean any day.

...that what all conservatives are?...really?

292 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:23:32am

Van Jones on Bush and Katrina

293 efuseakay  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:24:04am

re: #284 Land Shark

Can you provide a linky or some other way to confirm he was part of an organizing comittee for a Truther rally in 2002?

[Link: www.indybay.org...]

294 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:24:45am

re: #290 solicitr


"Why do you defend this anti-American creep? Is it because he serves the Messiah? Or do defend him *because* he's a commie?"

LudwigVanQuixote doesn't need me to defend him but you really crossed the line on that one.

295 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:24:55am
296 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:25:32am

re: #287 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you. BTW while the right is chasing it's tail with this...

Iran is still building a nuke...

Remember that?

Ohhh... and Russia is re-arming...

Remember that?

PATHETIC.

You're right. And what is Obama doing about it? Conservatives have no power in any branch of government, so what you're saying makes absolutely no sense.

297 Kenneth  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:25:44am

re: #274 solicitr

It wasn't a Troofer rally. It was a rally in support of Arab Americans, worried that they be blamed & targeted for 9-11. The rhetoric was leftist multi-culti crap, but it was not troofer.

298 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:26:03am

re: #251 JammieWearingFool

It's reaching critical mass with this guy. Start the pool now. I'll take Saturday night when Jones gets thrown under the bus van.

The real problem here is that dicking around with obvious bullshit like "evidence" found on a Troofer site, and focusing solely on that while ignoring all those other, legitimate reasons for criticism, give Jones and the Administration a perfect excuse to deflect such criticism by simply pointing out that the whackjobs doing the shouting are the same whackjobs who have been wrong and have promoted false accusations in the past. It tends to blunt legitimate criticism.

See "the little boy who cried wolf" for more detail, and the consequences of rabidly spewing bilge.

299 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:26:29am

re: #290 solicitr

Oh, stop it, Mad King Ludwig. Van Jones is a commie and a moonbat. End of story. Why do you defend this anti-American creep? Is it because he serves the Messiah? Or do defend him *because* he's a commie?


It takes a real blockhead of precisely the kind I was describing to read a defense of Van Jones' politics into what I wrote. And insinuating that I am a commie for pointing out that being a lying weasel is a bad thing says a lot about what you think about the importance of honesty is.

re: #291 Charpete67

Well see 290 to see someone who precisely fits the mold of what I was talking about.

300 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:27:22am

re: #293 efuseakay

[Link: www.indybay.org...]

What am I looking for here? This link says nothing about Van Jones that I can see.

301 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:27:38am

Totally OT--my children have spilled both chocolate chips and flour on the flour of the pantry. Do I clean it up, or add more ingredients to make cookies?

/kidding, kidding.

302 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:28:06am

Van Jones in Newsweek yesterday.

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

303 tfc3rid  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:28:09am

Here is a link to the economics department at the University of Utah that has an email from George Snedeker to a recipient that is information on the War Times publication that Van Jones was a member of the organizing committee...

It does not link to any trutherism but the prospectus is disturbing...

Email on War Times - U of Utah

304 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:28:15am

re: #291 Charpete67

Well see 290 to see someone who precisely fits the mold of what I was talking about.

not my point...don't even need to look at 290...nothing one person said can be an indictment of all conservatives.

305 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:28:20am

Hmmm. Van Jones and Zinn may or may not be "troofers" and may or may not have read the petition thoroughly. They probably thought anything making GWB look bad was cool with them. Neither thought it would come back to haunt them--and it has, for better or worse.
Van Jones is immature--and that can last a long time--impulse control is one of those things that come with being a real grown up, one would hope. If any of us had signed off on that petition, it would be caveat emptor, so to speak--and we would be paying the price for such a dumb move--especially if you didn't believe it! That's really pretty funny--and a very lame--VERY lame--excuse. Sounds like one of my students when they get papers back that are completely off the assignment--"I was confused..." Well, 99 percent of the rest of the class was NOT, so now wadddyasay? --what? You didn't read the instructions? Oh well...here's your new "F" word--fail.
Van Jones has shot his mouth off because he was all ginned up by the adrenalin rush from whatever attention he was getting. So, whatever happens to him because of it...good. He can always claim that he was a communist when communists weren't cool.
Obama's pretty good at the old heave-ho, so let's see if Jones will fit under the bus.

306 JohnH  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:29:17am

re: #287 LudwigVanQuixote

First, "the right" is not calling to pull out of Afghanistan, one pundit is, but it's disingenuous to say it's all of the right.

Second, the right is concerned about Iran, Russian, etc. We can think about more than one thing at a time.

307 badger1970  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:29:35am

With all the stuff that Van Jones has said, done and supported, does it even matter which truth sticks?

308 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:30:09am

re: #282 tfc3rid

Here is an article Van Jones posted at HuffPo where he talked about how the Bush Administration's criminal neglect of their duties led to the deaths in New Orleans in Katrina... Nutball.

Bush's Role in the Drowning of New Orleans

Somehow I missed this post. I posted at #292. I was also looking for any info on Van Jones comments on the Duke Lacrosse Rape Trial. See anything?

309 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:30:14am

re: #296 cliffster

You're right. And what is Obama doing about it? Conservatives have no power in any branch of government, so what you're saying makes absolutely no sense.

Well the conservatives could be offering real alternatives and promoting better policies... That might be a start.

It used to be a conservative value to work harder and do better, rather than always pathetically whine about the other guy...

It used to be the moonbats who were the masters of whining.

Now they are the ones working hard while the right sits throwing a progessively more crazy and dishonest tantrum - and as an excuse for it, and not actually being leaders who work to make a difference, like conservatives are supposed to do, they blame the moonbats for somehow forcing the right to be so pathetic.

Just like you just did.

310 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:30:38am

re: #293 efuseakay

[Link: www.indybay.org...]

Here's the page in question:

[Link: www.indybay.org...]

Van Jones was part of a "peace" group at this demonstration. Not part of a Truther group.

311 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:30:50am

re: #274 solicitr

Um, dear Van was also part of the organizing committee of a Troofer rally in January 2002.

Jeez, isn't it bad enough that this guy is a proud commie dedicated to the destruction of capitalism? That's an automatic fail by itself.

It's just icing on the cake that this wingnut is also a Free-Mumiyah moonbat and a Bush-dynamited-the-levees Katrina Troofer.

Really?

312 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:31:37am

re: #306 JohnH

First, "the right" is not calling to pull out of Afghanistan, one pundit is, but it's disingenuous to say it's all of the right.

Second, the right is concerned about Iran, Russian, etc. We can think about more than one thing at a time.

You can... I can... The average Fox viewer, I am not so convinced.

313 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:31:41am

re: #307 badger1970

With all the stuff that Van Jones has said, done and supported, does it even matter which truth sticks?

Yes- it does matter because the truth and credibility matter. There are legitimate criticisms to be made here, and again the right is going with distortions instead of the truth.

What's worse- some people have no problem siding with troofers to prove Van Jones sided with troofers. How ironic.

314 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:31:45am

re: #280 LudwigVanQuixote

On a moral level I will take whiny, stupid and compassionate over whiny, stupid and mean any day.

Oh, dear. Once again, in very simple words:

That's not compassion, it's greed Gimme gimme gimme. Robbing Peter to pay Paul ain't compassion, it's just robbery.

You are really pathetic, trying to wrap your philosophy of theft in threadbare rags of faux-morality.

You want to be compassionate? Then give the poor some of your own money- something I note libs are generally very loath to do.

315 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:32:18am

More on Van Jones' theme above.

While most Americans would now agree that climate change is real, a new report by the USC Program for Environmental and Regional Equity and UC Berkeley’s College of Natural Resources uncovers what researchers call a “climate gap” or hidden pattern revealing that poor people and people of color in the United States suffer more from environmental changes than other whiter and wealthier Americans.

[Link: www.ellabakercenter.org...]

316 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:32:39am

re: #257 Charles

All of these stories are based on a page at the hate site rense.com. There's no independent confirmation of that.

And that rense.com post doesn't prove anything anyway. Van Jones signature appeared below the call for the creation of a newspaper -- not the announcement of the 9-11 protest march. It had nothing to do with the 9-11 business. In fact, the thing Van Jones signed called 9-11 a terrorist act. Either Jake Tapper can't read or he is looking at another document -- not the rense.com piece I posted (sorry Charles) last night.

317 Lincolntf  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:33:11am

re: #303 tfc3rid

Oh boy...

"> The world's most powerful nation has mercilessly bombed Afghanistan and is
> installing a neo-colonial government of its own choosing, although that
> country has never attacked the U.S. Millions of Afghans have been
displaced
> and face starvation this winter. The administration has also green-lighted
> massive Israeli assaults on Palestine, and it threatens to attack Iraq,
> Lebanon, Somalia, and other countries. The agenda seems clear: to remake
the
> world in the rightwing image with little regard for human consequences.
>

318 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:33:46am

re: #302 MandyManners

Van Jones in Newsweek yesterday.

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

"This is a time for heroes, not zeros."
- Van Jones, from the linked Newsweek interview

319 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:33:47am

Well, finally some good news for Glenn Beck on the advertiser front. Three new products will begin advertising during his program starting September 10th:

Nutty Buddy
Loon Mountain Ski Resort
Silly Putty.

(Okay, Okay, I made that up.)

320 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:34:11am

re: #310 Charles

I clicked that first link--nude women. Ewww. I decided not to bother with the others--my experience is that somehow these things just end up popping up in my email if I do.

321 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:34:12am

re: #309 LudwigVanQuixote

... they blame the moonbats for somehow forcing the right to be so pathetic.

Just like you just did.

that, too, doesn't make sense. I pointed out that it doesn't make sense to say, "hey conservatives, what are you doing about Iran and Russia?" That's in the hands of the liberal WH and liberal Congress. Nothing I said said anything about anyone forcing the right to be more pathetic, you made that up.

322 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:34:12am

re: #303 tfc3rid

Here is a link to the economics department at the University of Utah that has an email from George Snedeker to a recipient that is information on the War Times publication that Van Jones was a member of the organizing committee...

It does not link to any trutherism but the prospectus is disturbing...

Email on War Times - U of Utah

Right. He's a signatory to the creation of War Times along with a bunch of other presumed Leftists. This is not a Truther document.

323 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:34:22am

Anyone else find it ironic that the people screaming loudest about this story (Glenn Beck, Michelle Malkin, WND) have themselves pushed pretty much every easily debunked conspiracy theory in the past six months?

324 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:34:27am

re: #314 solicitr

Oh, dear. Once again, in very simple words:

That's not compassion, it's greed Gimme gimme gimme. Robbing Peter to pay Paul ain't compassion, it's just robbery.

You are really pathetic, trying to wrap your philosophy of theft in threadbare rags of faux-morality.

You want to be compassionate? Then give the poor some of your own money- something I note libs are generally very loath to do.

Again with the false assumptions about me rather than looking seriously at the point being made.

Tseducka is a mitzva. I donate between 5 and 10% of my income to charity each year. But not because I am a liberal. It used to be that charity was a conservative value as well - you know part of that old time religion.

325 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:34:55am

I think this issue has brought in more irrational hate mail than anything else I've posted. And a lot of it is much more abusive than anything I ever received from a leftist.

326 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:35:31am

Who is Hayes Morehouse? re: #315 MandyManners

More on Van Jones' theme above.

While most Americans would now agree that climate change is real, a new report by the USC Program for Environmental and Regional Equity and UC Berkeley’s College of Natural Resources uncovers what researchers call a “climate gap” or hidden pattern revealing that poor people and people of color in the United States suffer more from environmental changes than other whiter and wealthier Americans.

[Link: www.ellabakercenter.org...]

Who is Hayes Morehouse? Who is Hayes Morehouse?

Who is Hayes Morehouse?

327 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:35:49am

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh, and now the right wants to cut and run from Afghanistan and Iraq too.

So, just to put this in perspective, you can characterize the position of every single person on the right on an issue by the writing of a single pundit.

328 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:35:57am

re: #318 Spare O'Lake

"This is a time for heroes, not zeros."
- Van Jones, from the linked Newsweek interview

I wonder if he reads LGF.

329 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:36:03am

re: #325 Charles

I think this issue has brought in more irrational hate mail than anything else I've posted. And a lot of it is much more abusive than anything I ever received from a leftist.

You're just such a spoilsport! /

330 KenJen  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:36:06am

re: #302 MandyManners

Van Jones in Newsweek yesterday.

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

Low hanging fruit? Caulk gun?

331 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:36:13am

re: #323 Killgore Trout

Anyone else find it ironic that the people screaming loudest about this story (Glenn Beck, Michelle Malkin, WND) have themselves pushed pretty much every easily debunked conspiracy theory in the past six months?

What I find ironic is siding with troofers so as to smear someone else for siding with troofers.

332 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:36:20am

re: #255 Sharmuta

This is where anti-intellectualism takes its greatest toll. Folks don't want to gather evidence and base their conclusions on such. They form their hypothesis and look for evidence to fit their pre-existing conclusion. It's really amazing how much not teaching science and the scientific method affects the ability of society to think critically.

You can almost script it:

Original Poster (hereafter - OP): "Look what I've found!"
Responding Poster (hereafter - RP): "I dunno - looks like a turd to me..."
OP: "No, it's a shiny new quarter!"
RP: "Then why does it smell so much?"
OP: "It doesn't matter! It still is worth something!"
RP: "Where did you get it from?"
OP: "Well, I pulled it out of the outhouse, but why does that matter?"
RP: "Isn't that where all the shit goes?"
OP: "Yeah, but sometimes there is valuable stuff that winds up in there!"

Continue ad nauseum - the OP never drops the turd and winds up with shit all over him.

I tried to make it as generic as possible. It doesn't matter if this behavior is seen on the left or the right, we see it all over these blogs. Let's promise to drop turds when it becomes obvious and not pick them up again.

333 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:36:30am

re: #326 MandyManners

ACK!

334 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:36:48am

I often told my friends who railed on Bush, "There's enough to dislike about him. You don't have to make things up." If that was ever true, it's true for Anthony "Van" Jones.

335 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:37:09am

re: #325 Charles

I think this issue has brought in more irrational hate mail than anything else I've posted. And a lot of it is much more abusive than anything I ever received from a leftist.

More than creationism?!

336 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:37:27am

re: #331 Sharmuta

What I find ironic is siding with troofers so as to smear someone else for siding with troofers.

Agreed. Michelle Malkin has linked to pictures of truthers and Tea Party events. Not one of her readers was offended.

337 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:37:32am

re: #255 Sharmuta

This is where anti-intellectualism takes its greatest toll. Folks don't want to gather evidence and base their conclusions on such. They form their hypothesis and look for evidence to fit their pre-existing conclusion. It's really amazing how much not teaching science and the scientific method affects the ability of society to think critically.

Ironic (or just a sad commentary on the state of American politics) that this is almost a perfectly distilled description of Van Jones as well.

338 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:37:37am

re: #321 cliffster

that, too, doesn't make sense. I pointed out that it doesn't make sense to say, "hey conservatives, what are you doing about Iran and Russia?" That's in the hands of the liberal WH and liberal Congress. Nothing I said said anything about anyone forcing the right to be more pathetic, you made that up.

And you missed the point. Suppose, just suppose that the GOP were calmly, patiently and factually building a case about Iran in a truthful and patient manner.

I am somehow shocked that the Average American can get so hepped up about health insurance, but not about something that is a clear and present danger like an Iranian nuke. So just imagine that all of the energy that was put into town halls got pointed some place useful.

Ohhh, but then that wouldn't mean the big campaign check from pfizer, and would actually be serving America and doing one's duty. Duty does not go away because it is hard.

339 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:37:46am

re: #280 LudwigVanQuixote

"We have to accept the reality that American conservatives are just as fat, lazy and stupid - filled with the same whiny sense of entitlement - as the moonbats these days."

Gee, just the kind of generalized bullshit a moonbat would say. Mmmm.

340 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:37:52am

re: #293 efuseakay

[Link: www.indybay.org...]

Interesting. This appears to be from IndyMedia for a peace event in the Bay Area.

# Wednesday, Sept. 11, 5:30 AM - 7:30 PM
ALL-DAY SEPT. 11 PEACE GATHERING
Justin Herman Plaza, Embarcadero at Market Street
Join us in commemorating the tragedy of Sept. 11, 2001, and envisioning a
world free of war and violence with a full day of art, culture, spirit,
politics, and words of hope. 5:30 AM Buddhist Peace Service
12 Noon Break Bread for Peace Lunch Program
5:30 PM Concert w/Holly Near, Michael Franti, Ram Dass and others
peace [at] globalexchange.org [Link: www.unitedforpeace.org...]
5:30 AM Buddhist Peace Service Led by the San Francisco Zen Center
(impact time at the World Trade Center)
12 Noon -1:00 PM Break Bread Lunch Program Music and words of
truth from diverse communities that have experienced violence
1-3pm United My Ass! [Link: www.truth-now.com...]
If terrorism is a form of warfare, and war terrorizes, then what
exactly is a war on terror? got freedom? God 'Less America
5:30 PM Peace Gathering & Concert
Performers and presenters include:
Michael Franti, Holly Near, Ram Dass
Van Jones, Medea Benjamin, Dance Brigade
Sat Santokh Khalsa, Guru Singh, Rabbi Michael Lerner
Goapele, New Soul Singers, and others!

Nothing that seems to indicate anything other than normal anti-Bush moonbattery.

341 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:37:53am

re: #324 LudwigVanQuixote

Again with the false assumptions about me rather than looking seriously at the point being made.

Tseducka is a mitzva. I donate between 5 and 10% of my income to charity each year. But not because I am a liberal. It used to be that charity was a conservative value as well - you know part of that old time religion.

the points you've been making are that all conservatives are lazy and fat whiners with no ideas of their own...am I reading your posts wrong?

342 Robert O.  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:39:24am

I am confused... If Van Jones has a Marxist / revolutionary past, why is he a "Green Czar"? Wouldn't he be a "Green Bolshevik"? :-D

343 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:39:48am

re: #325 Charles

I think this issue has brought in more irrational hate mail than anything else I've posted. And a lot of it is much more abusive than anything I ever received from a leftist.

Thank the Lord in heaven that he isn't a creationist, too.

344 JohnH  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:40:12am

re: #338 LudwigVanQuixote

And you missed the point. Suppose, just suppose that the GOP were calmly, patiently and factually building a case about Iran in a truthful and patient manner.

Can't speak for the GOP, but many on the right are, but they generally get lumped by center-oriented fundamentalists into the hate camp.

345 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:41:09am

re: #341 Charpete67

No I was pretty clear that I was talking about the punditsphere and the present GOP. I said so clearly.

The fact that you and others are quibbling so much says a lot about the truth of what I am saying.

Is working hard to do what is right a conservative value or not?

Is the GOP and the punditshere working hard to do what is right, or are they lying and cheating to whip up false hysteria in order to win on something other than merit or good ideas?

Be truthful.

346 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:41:10am

re: #335 MandyManners

More than creationism?!

Or the Vlaams Belang kerfuffle?

347 RainDog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:41:29am

Oh c'mon, nobody can tell me he didn't know the gist of what he was signing. Sure, the truthers pulled a fast one, but I don't believe for a second that Van Jones or the other signatories had no idea of the motivations behind the petition.

Cutting him a break because the truthers made it even worse than what it already was just doesn't make sense. He did what he did, he took his stance, and he knew what he was doing.

348 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:41:34am

re: #342 Robert O.

I am confused... If Van Jones has a Marxist / revolutionary past, why is he a "Green Czar"? Wouldn't he be a "Green Bolshevik"? :-D

Green President-of-the-People's-Committee-on-Not-Letting-the-People-Use-Plastic-Grocery-Sacks.

And with that, I'm off.

349 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:41:39am

re: #282 tfc3rid

Here is an article Van Jones posted at HuffPo where he talked about how the Bush Administration's criminal neglect of their duties led to the deaths in New Orleans in Katrina... Nutball.

Bush's Role in the Drowning of New Orleans

Thanks for posting this! I'm wondering whether the gentleman has any published articles immediately post 9-11.

350 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:42:19am

Looks like I just hiccuped. Sorry.

351 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:42:31am

re: #337 cronus

Ironic (or just a sad commentary on the state of American politics) that this is almost a perfectly distilled description of Van Jones as well.

Yes- anti-intellectualism comes from both the left and the right, and both versions are terrible for this country. As Dreader1962 said just up above- both sides are ignoring empirical examination. It's terrible.

352 Dahveed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:42:51am

re: #325 Charles

I think this issue has brought in more irrational hate mail than anything else I've posted. And a lot of it is much more abusive than anything I ever received from a leftist.

When Pres. Bush was in office the right was telling everyone on the left to not drink the kool-aid. Now that Obama is in office, the right is drinking the kool-aid.

It may be a different flavor but drinking kool-aid is drinking kool-aid as far as I'm concerned.

353 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:42:57am

re: #346 CyanSnowHawk

Or the Vlaams Belang kerfuffle?

My mind is boggled and my flabber is gasted.

354 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:43:05am

re: #338 LudwigVanQuixote

And you missed the point. Suppose, just suppose that the GOP were calmly, patiently and factually building a case about Iran in a truthful and patient manner.

There, now see.. that made sense. Thank you, and you're right.


I am somehow shocked that the Average American can get so hepped up about health insurance, but not about something that is a clear and present danger like an Iranian nuke. So just imagine that all of the energy that was put into town halls got pointed some place useful.

There I disagree - we are much more threatened by policies and programs that are going to have us crumbling from within. Social Security will destroy us, it's just a matter of time. What the liberals want to do with health care -that will speed it up dramatically.

Ohhh, but then that wouldn't mean the big campaign check from pfizer, and would actually be serving America and doing one's duty. Duty does not go away because it is hard.

If you actually believe that ANYONE (outside of, say, 1%) in Congress are there for any other reason that to get power and then get money, then I just have to say I wish you were right, but you're wrong.

355 MacDuff  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:43:08am

re: #292 KenJen

Van Jones on Bush and Katrina

I'm so friggin' sick of hearing about Katrina. New Orleans was a self inflicted wound before Katrina ever hit. My wife's from NO and she's been telling me for decades about the perils of a direct hit and when it finally came, the Mayor and the Governor sat on their asses. They had a week to prepare, and they chose to do nothing. When the magnitude of the disaster was apparent, their fall-back position was to "blame Bush".

And what was Mayor Ray "Chocolate City" Nagin's punishment for his ineptitude? Why, he was reelected!

Admittedly, this was certainly not FEMA's finest hour, but they were not nearly as inept as some would lead you to believe.

The very fact that he would write this victimologic pornography brands him as a destructive, race-bating liar. As far as I'm concerned, compared to that, whether he's a "Truther" is secondary.

356 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:43:54am

re: #327 CyanSnowHawk

So, just to put this in perspective, you can characterize the position of every single person on the right on an issue by the writing of a single pundit.

OK that's fair. Strike that from the list for the sake of argument.

What about everything else on the list?

357 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:44:36am

re: #347 RainDog

Oh c'mon, nobody can tell me he didn't know the gist of what he was signing. Sure, the truthers pulled a fast one, but I don't believe for a second that Van Jones or the other signatories had no idea of the motivations behind the petition.

Cutting him a break because the truthers made it even worse than what it already was just doesn't make sense. He did what he did, he took his stance, and he knew what he was doing.

Did you bother reading the intro to this thread? Signatories signed a one document, then had their signature slapped on to a completely different document. In some case. In others, they had their "signature" applied to a document when they hadn't signed anything at all.

I'll type real, real slow: Troofers lie.

Why are you so anxious to believe what Troofers say?

358 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:44:37am

re: #345 LudwigVanQuixote

No I was pretty clear that I was talking about the punditsphere and the present GOP. I said so clearly.

The fact that you and others are quibbling so much says a lot about the truth of what I am saying.

Is working hard to do what is right a conservative value or not?

Is the GOP and the punditshere working hard to do what is right, or are they lying and cheating to whip up false hysteria in order to win on something other than merit or good ideas?

Be truthful.

how so?...and I don't think one could read your posts as only the punditsphere...you are backpeddling.

I'm not quibbling with your words, but rather your gross generalizations that will do nothing to further any point you are trying to make.

359 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:45:07am

re: #342 Robert O.

LOL!

360 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:46:44am

re: #325 Charles

I think this issue has brought in more irrational hate mail than anything else I've posted. And a lot of it is much more abusive than anything I ever received from a leftist.

Worst than the God Fearing..Jesus in my Heart Creationists?
Wow..A new standard bearer on LGF...

361 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:47:11am

Thie big pcture of Van Jones’ career is known: essentially a severe Marxist, very politically active and known to associate with various radical / fringe / whatever groups in the area; in this case SF-Oakland.

Salamanits, in post 23, provides a plausible answer, Jones did the politically expedient thing, and signed.

Via a link from Hot Air, this article by Jake Tapper at ABC News:

Link: [Link: blogs.abcnews.com...]

and this quote:

”But in March 2002, a march in San Francisco was called to demand a congressional inquiry into 9/11. Jones was on the "organizing committee."

Jones was on the "organizing committee.". Is it even remotely reasonable to assume he did not know what the major views of the Truthers, with whom he associated, were?

No. People who live / work in close proximity to others tend to become familiar with the views, beliefs and practices of others. New York City is a case in point. The fact that Catholics, Jews and Protestants that lived in the same neighborhoods and or worked together tended to become knowledgeable about each other’s religious beliefs and practices seems adequate proof.

Van Jones’ actions may be just political expediency, but maybe not. In any case, at this point, the ball is in Jones’ court, and Jones has some explaining to do.

362 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:47:13am

re: #325 Charles

I think this issue has brought in more irrational hate mail than anything else I've posted. And a lot of it is much more abusive than anything I ever received from a leftist.

There has been a campaign by some (the Duecers) to try to discredit you and what you have been doing here on LGF. I suspect the volume of hate mail is a part of that. It has less to do with Van Jones than their irrational hatred of Charles Johnson. And why? Because their little egos got squashed when they got banned for being complete and total jerks? It's amazing how vindictive some people can be. These folks need to get over the fact that they got banned, and own up to the fact that they were complete and total jerks in the time leading up to their banning.

363 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:47:16am

re: #357 SixDegrees

Did you bother reading the intro to this thread?

That's teh hard.

364 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:47:29am

re: #344 JohnH

Can't speak for the GOP, but many on the right are, but they generally get lumped by center-oriented fundamentalists into the hate camp.

A centrist fundamentalist... I have never been called that before... I'm not sure what it means, but I like it!

VERY WELL!!!

I Ludwig am now a CENTRIST Fundamentalist.

I like that better than Liberal from 1776 or Liberal from 1865.

365 J.S.  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:47:39am

I thought most of this had been settled by Jake Tapper's ABC article published yesterday -- yes, he (van Jones) signed the petition, and now apologizes, and states that he does not harbor "Truther" sentiments. I don't see much more to the story (with respect to this angle). I am curious, however, but it's along the lines of "So, just how much money is he being paid as the Green Czar?" (and what about all those other Czars who've also done end runs around the U.S. Congress?) (Finally, speaking of the Truthers -- CBC is, once again, gearing up to air it's own special Truther conspiracy shows...they're airing the promos...)

366 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:47:56am

Man, I am sooo glad to hear that people disagreeing with me proves that I am right!

/

367 RainDog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:49:08am

re: #357 SixDegrees

Did you bother reading the intro to this thread? Signatories signed a one document, then had their signature slapped on to a completely different document. In some case. In others, they had their "signature" applied to a document when they hadn't signed anything at all.

I'll type real, real slow: Troofers lie.

Why are you so anxious to believe what Troofers say?

I read the whole thing, and I'm not anxious to believe what truthers say.

They signed a more benign and less bold version of the same thing. It's truther stuff, either way.

368 redmonkey  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:49:10am

From Politico.Com

UPDATE: A White House official, seeking to explain Jones's signature on the 9/11 statement, says Jones "didn't carefully review" the document before signing it.

Actually, A White house offical admited Jones signed petition

369 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:49:15am

re: #360 HoosierHoops

Worst than the God Fearing..Jesus in my Heart Creationists?
Wow..A new standard bearer on LGF...

I'm willing to wager most of the hate mail emminates from the same sources, the same people.

370 greygandalf  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:49:33am

re: #357 SixDegrees

Did you bother reading the intro to this thread?

If I read then I a lot of the points I want to make will be contradicted. No fun that!

371 Nadnerb  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:49:47am

I'm glad Charles brought up the Mumia stuff. This is something that legitimately can be used to show Jones' character. In addition to his scientific beliefs, this in my opinion, qualifies him as a true nut. Anything truther is way out in left field, out of bounds.

372 kozmocostello  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:50:13am

Michael Lerner (who is not a rabbi actually) and Howard Zinn have never shown any hesitancy to lie before. Why believe them now? I have no doubt that they would lie to give cover to a fellow traveler.

373 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:50:16am

re: #361 Arbalest

Jones was not on the organizing committee. Not on the rense page I saw. See my comment #316

374 JohnH  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:50:46am

re: #364 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I wasn't referring to you, it was a generalization. But, if you want to wear the mantle...

375 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:50:50am

re: #358 Charpete67

how so?...and I don't think one could read your posts as only the punditsphere...you are backpeddling.

I'm not quibbling with your words, but rather your gross generalizations that will do nothing to further any point you are trying to make.

Fair enough then. I thought I clearly was talking about the puntsphere and the GOP leadership and those who are guzzling the present kool-aid served up by them - which is pretty much who I am always talking about in such cases.

If that was unclear, I apologize.

That is who I meant. It is a lot of people.

However

376 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:51:34am

re: #353 MandyManners

My mind is boggled and my flabber is gasted.

Charles may be exaggerating to make a point. I hear that can be a useful thing. But if not, wow.

377 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:52:11am

re: #374 JohnH

Actually, I wasn't referring to you, it was a generalization. But, if you want to wear the mantle...

I actually like it :)

And I have no beef with you - just to be clear on that.

378 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:52:40am

re: #371 Nadnerb

I'm glad Charles brought up the Mumia stuff. This is something that legitimately can be used to show Jones' character. In addition to his scientific beliefs, this in my opinion, qualifies him as a true nut. Anything truther is way out in left field, out of bounds.

Jammie Wearing Fool did at No. 239.

379 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:52:50am

re: #368 redmonkey

And you've put faith in unnamed sources before? For 8 years we laughed our asses off at unnamed sources, but now they're believable? Wow.

380 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:52:57am

OMG, I got called away about a gazillion posts ago.

what's happening?

381 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:53:13am

Well, at least we have Van Jones exclaiming about how when Pookie gets a job (that would be some new name for the nameless in the Ghetto, I guess), then global warming, the recession, EVERY PROBLEM IN AMERICA will be solved. Obama is not just the first BLACK President, he is the first GREEN President, quoting Jones. Wow. Who knew?

382 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:53:51am

re: #379 Sharmuta

And you've put faith in unnamed sources before? For 8 years we laughed our asses off at unnamed sources, but now they're believable? Wow.

Remember Deep Throat?

383 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:54:03am

Daily Kos poll on Van Jones:

[Link: afraid-of-looking-nutty.dailykos.com...]

Condemn Van Jones for signing 9/11 petition?

by Afraid of Looking Nutty
Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 01:58:28 AM PDT

This is our chance.

I know it's forbidden around here, but you're down with Glenn Beck being a provocatuering Corporatist tool, right? Well: maybe you can agree with me that his badly-acted-outrage over Obama's "Green Jobs czar" Van Jones' having publicly expressed concern over the as-of-yet incomplete investigation of 9/11.
Poll

Should Van Jones back down from his publicly stated concern over the corrupted investigation of 9/11?
Yes, he should take it back. 2+2 does equal 5
25% 22 votes
No: everyone knows the 9/11 commission was "set up to fail"
53% 46 votes
Don't ask me, I've been told not to have an opinion on this forbidden topic
20% 18 votes

Typical Democratic ballot. I could not find my answer. lol

%P% 86 votes %P% Vote %P% Results

384 JohnH  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:54:34am

re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, no beef yet, but I'm optimistic that we will.

385 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:54:42am

re: #375 LudwigVanQuixote

I thought you were doing a generalization of all conservatives. Glad I sat back at waited.

386 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:55:26am

re: #383 pat

Daily Kos poll on Van Jones:

[Link: afraid-of-looking-nutty.dailykos.com...]

Condemn Van Jones for signing 9/11 petition?

53% believe the commission was set up to fail?

387 bruce rheinstein  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:55:30am

[Howard] Zinn sent me a curt email in response to a question of whether he’d intended to suggest Bush’s complicity in the attacks: “I did not sign a statement suggesting that ‘Bush had prior knowledge.’ I signed a statement calling for an investigation.”

Because, you know, he always signs statements calling for investigations into outrageous allegations he believes to be unfounded...

The real question is whether Van Jones is a fool or a knave. My guess is he's a little of both.

388 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:55:35am

re: #382 MandyManners

Not all unnamed sources are wrong, but they shouldn't be believed soley because we want to believe them- it should be based on evidence. If there is a further statement today that the source is correct- fine. But until then- it should be treated with the same skepticism we'd treat any other unnamed source.

389 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:55:40am

Charles' statement in the intro to this thread is in agreement with my post from last night (which apparently many Lizards liked). jones has enough legitimate skeletons that he will soon be under the bus with the rest of Obama's castoffs. No need to lie here. The truth is f'd up enough!

390 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:55:44am

re: #381 katemaclaren

Well, at least we have Van Jones exclaiming about how when Pookie gets a job (that would be some new name for the nameless in the Ghetto, I guess), then global warming, the recession, EVERY PROBLEM IN AMERICA will be solved. Obama is not just the first BLACK President, he is the first GREEN President, quoting Jones. Wow. Who knew?


[Video]

And if you believe Chris Matthews, Obama is a Green Kennedy Brother.

391 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:56:06am

re: #376 CyanSnowHawk

Charles may be exaggerating to make a point. I hear that can be a useful thing. But if not, wow.

I'm not exaggerating. I've received more than 50 hate mails about this, full of insults and invective.

392 redmonkey  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:56:10am

re: #379 Sharmuta

And you've put faith in unnamed sources before? For 8 years we laughed our asses off at unnamed sources, but now they're believable? Wow.


Why not? Politico is site with good reputation

393 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:57:01am

re: #356 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that's fair. Strike that from the list for the sake of argument.

What about everything else on the list?

Pretty good list of Drudge Headlines, but like those headlines, each based on a real problem. Even the one I mentioned is based on a real problem. What the hell was George Will thinking? I kept looking for a sarc tag and never found one.

394 LoquaciousLady  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:57:11am

re: #338 LudwigVanQuixote

After 8 years of complete BDS from the left in the very mainstream media, with little to no treatment of disgust over their nuttiness, many of the right have adopted the same tactics. Why? Because after eight years it ALL worked, apparently not enough people were disgusted with the left's tactics to pick a moderate republican.

*sigh*

395 VioletTiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:57:19am

re: #187 Salamantis

I don't even believe most politicians when they tell me that they're talking...

/


Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear---from a wise old friend of mine.

396 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:57:25am

re: #367 RainDog

I agree with you--but I don't think he even cared or thought about what he was signing. He obviously was looking at the website or the source that asked for his signature--that should say something more about the guy.

397 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:58:03am

re: #375 LudwigVanQuixote

Fair enough then. I thought I clearly was talking about the puntsphere and the GOP leadership and those who are guzzling the present kool-aid served up by them - which is pretty much who I am always talking about in such cases.

If that was unclear, I apologize.

That is who I meant. It is a lot of people.

However

fair enough...It's very easy to just lump people together...I have done it when I am passionate about something...I am a proud conservative...and while I will admit I do enjoy seeing Ob-ma suffer from some of the trivial embarrassing issues...I passionately believe that the conservative principles will win out in the arena of ideas...that is the change I believe in...that is the lasting change in mindset that I want to see take hold in America again.

398 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:58:13am

re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote

I actually like it :)

And I have no beef with you - just to be clear on that.

Hi Lud..Hope you are well today...OT
I'm really pissed about the EU minister holding up the Sale of Sun to Oracle over concerns about competition of Databases...What one? MYSQL which is open source and 2% of the market...Sun is losing a Billion dollars a year and could go under with the help of Europe.

399 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:58:16am

re: #385 Cannadian Club Akbar

I thought you were doing a generalization of all conservatives. Glad I sat back at waited.

Thanks for doing so.

For the record I am neither a liberal or a conservative. I am niether a Republican or a Dem.

I am an up and up moderate who sees flaws and good parts of both sides.

I would have made a fine Adams Federalist or a fine Jack Kennedy Dem.

These days, I hate both parties. To quote Sting, they all seem like game show hosts to me -at best.

400 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:58:17am

re: #328 MandyManners

I wonder if he reads LGF.

Or listens to Van Morrison.

401 JohnH  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:58:18am

re: #389 _RememberTonyC

Charles' statement in the intro to this thread is in agreement with my post from last night (which apparently many Lizards liked). jones has enough legitimate skeletons that he will soon be under the bus with the rest of Obama's castoffs. No need to lie here. The truth is f'd up enough!

Yea, and while I have been approached on the nirther issue and would really, really like to believe it, my conversations with my friends on the right have been that if we are just patient, oppose and expose BHO and his ilk for what they really are, the truth will bring them down and not something that has to be manufactured. Same here with Van Jones: he's a Marxist nut, so stupid that he announced he was a Communist AFTER the Soviet Union had collapsed and after the atrocities of Mao had been exposed. That's the stuff we should be talking about.

402 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:58:31am

re: #396 katemaclaren

I agree with you--but I don't think he even cared or thought about what he was signing. He obviously was looking at the website or the source that asked for his signature--that should say something more about the guy.

Read my post! The truthers MISLED people into signing one document, then put their names on an entirely different document.

Why is it so hard for people to grasp this?

403 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:58:44am

re: #373 HelloDare

I read your post.

Is it reasonable to believe that a political activist as intense as Van Jones (and in the local scheme of things, important) would only be involved with an event, and not on the organizing committee?

I think “no”, simply because of how such people operate. Jones needs the power, attention, and resume box checked; the Truthers and other doing the event would gain much and lose nothing by including Jones on the committee.

In any event, it seems clear that Jones knew who he was associating with. The ball is in his court.

Perhaps more information will come to light over the next few days.

404 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:58:50am

re: #386 MandyManners

Those are the dolts that did not understand the commission was set up to burn Bush. Or if they did grasp it at the time, were upset Republicans were allowed on the commission and allowed to testify.

405 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:59:06am

Gotta' git.

406 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:59:17am

re: #382 MandyManners

Remember Deep Throat?

Beat me to it, Mandy. I was once a journalist--UN named sources are often very good sources indeed. It is unfortunate that the media abused the phrase.

407 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:59:27am

re: #392 redmonkey

Why not? Politico is site with good reputation

Would you believe unnamed sources if this was a republican administration?

408 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:59:34am
409 tackle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:00:04pm

re: #355 MacDuff

I'm so friggin' sick of hearing about Katrina.
[snip]

Bush's handling of Katrina is huge among leftists and progressives. During my travels, especially outside the US, I'm surprised at the left's continued emphasis this tragedy. It's part of their template now.

410 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:00:06pm

re: #394 LoquaciousLady

After 8 years of complete BDS from the left in the very mainstream media, with little to no treatment of disgust over their nuttiness, many of the right have adopted the same tactics. Why? Because after eight years it ALL worked, apparently not enough people were disgusted with the left's tactics to pick a moderate republican.

*sigh*

Fox is the largest media outlet these days and they were vig during Bush too. Fox lies a lot to say the least. The myth that the MSM is all moonbat left is not true anymore. The largest outlet says the most extreme rightwing lies.

411 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:00:34pm

re: #402 Charles

Read my post! The truthers MISLED people into signing one document, then put their names on an entirely different document.

Why is it so hard for people to grasp this?

I do grasp what you're saying, I'm just not sure I agree with those who said they were misled. I think they would love to back off what they did. I think the truthers are nuts--and I think Jones and Zinn are kissing cousins.

412 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:01:22pm

re: #411 katemaclaren

I do grasp what you're saying, I'm just not sure I agree with those who said they were misled. I think they would love to back off what they did. I think the truthers are nuts--and I think Jones and Zinn are kissing cousins.

So you're calling Rachel Ehrenfeld a liar too?

413 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:01:28pm

re: #391 Charles

I'm not exaggerating. I've received more than 50 hate mails about this, full of insults and invective.

Wow.

414 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:02:04pm
415 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:02:14pm

re: #391 Charles

I'm not exaggerating. I've received more than 50 hate mails about this, full of insults and invective.

...you only hurt the ones you love?

416 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:02:39pm

re: #407 Sharmuta

Would you believe unnamed sources if this was a republican administration?

Of course not. This has never been about what is true or right. It is about wanting to win and wanting to believe it so that vengeance can be extracted by any means.

Another old proverb:

The best revenge is leading a good life.

417 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:03:25pm

re: #332 Dreader1962

You can almost script it:

Original Poster (hereafter - OP): "Look what I've found!"
Responding Poster (hereafter - RP): "I dunno - looks like a turd to me..."
OP: "No, it's a shiny new quarter!"
RP: "Then why does it smell so much?"
OP: "It doesn't matter! It still is worth something!"
RP: "Where did you get it from?"
OP: "Well, I pulled it out of the outhouse, but why does that matter?"
RP: "Isn't that where all the shit goes?"
OP: "Yeah, but sometimes there is valuable stuff that winds up in there!"

Continue ad nauseum - the OP never drops the turd and winds up with shit all over him.

I tried to make it as generic as possible. It doesn't matter if this behavior is seen on the left or the right, we see it all over these blogs. Let's promise to drop turds when it becomes obvious and not pick them up again.

Opinions, like links, are like assholes-- everyone has one and everyone is convinced that everyone else's stinks, but not theirs.

418 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:03:26pm

re: #390 HelloDare

I laughed aloud when I saw the video of Chris Matthews uttering this...omg, it was so funny--like the leg tingle.

419 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:03:42pm

Back to the main issue:

How did the Republic ever descend to such a condition that a man with Jones' open, unrepentant Maoist-Leninist views could ever be given a high government position?

The meat of the matter is that this man wants to destroy the "oppressive and racist system of capitalism." And the President of the United States appointed him to a position which he, in his own words, views as a platform from which to begin the incremental destruction of the free economy: "The goal of green jobs is complete revolution step by step away from gray capitalism until the forces of oppression are overcome."

That is the meat of the matter, and all by itself sufficientt to disqualify this creep- or to out Obama as the radical we always suspected he was.

It's just gravy to bring up his (undeniable) affiliation with the whackjob Institute of Noetic Sciences, or his various nutbar statements that white capitalists and environmentalists conspire to poison blacks through pollution, etc etc etc, not to mention the disputed allegations of Trooferism or Katrina-conspiracy or Mumiyah or all the rest of the common repertory of the freakazoid Left. It's pretty immaterial whether Van Jones ranks above or below Cynthia McKinney in the Moonbat Sweepstakes. After all, what does one expect? Logic? Rationality?

But not only are these things are distractions from the real issue- he's a frickin communist, goddamit! - but they often provide protruberances to which bottomfeeders like Mad King Ludwig can attach their toothless gums.

420 flyers1974  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:04:03pm

My take on the Van Jones Affair:

Jones was a pretty far left, angry-activist type. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he moderated his views only because of political opportunities. Regardless of whether credible evidence is found proving he signed the 9-11 petition, I think its very reasonable to believe he is much further left than most of the US. If it is proven that he did not sign the petition, It still wouldn't surprise me if in fact he sympathized with the 9-11 nonsense. After all, believing in conspiracies is what the angry-activist types of the right and left do.

Of course Fox News, et. al., are making Obama's hiring of Jones seem like a profound and unique event, nothing new with that, its how the game is played today. But for those who aren't employed as a talk show host, etc..., in the interest of perspective I would consider: will the next GOP President hire George HW Bush type conservatives to fill minor positions? Will those new employees likely be people previously very active and committed to conservative thought as it is today? If so, is it also true that those most committed tend to be the most extreme? How will that next GOP president reward his/her supporters with jobs while avoiding the minefield of Birther Movement types, Creationism in public schools types, Obama is a Communist types, etc...? Is hiring an executive branch employee who approves of Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter better than hiring a guy who was a Marxist and who's current political thought is dubious?

None of this is meant to imply that it was good thing for Obama to have hired Jones. But it will be interesting to see how those who are y deeply disturbed by this will handle with the next GOP POTUS employees.

421 Code Red 21  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:04:21pm

re: #399 LudwigVanQuixote

These days, I hate both parties. To quote Sting, they all seem like game show hosts to me -at best

Or maybe professional wrestling one day the democrats are the bad guys the next day its the republicans. I also have a strong dislike for both parties.

422 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:04:23pm

re: #412 Charles

I don't call people liars. I think people tend to speak what they believe most of the time--and see things through the prism of their own...well...values, for lack of a better word, here.

423 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:04:56pm

re: #422 katemaclaren

I don't call people liars. I think people tend to speak what they believe most of the time--and see things through the prism of their own...well...values, for lack of a better word, here.

Do you even know who Rachel Ehrenfeld is?

424 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:04:59pm

re: #381 katemaclaren

Pookie?

:)

Ludwig, did you write that speech?

/

425 MacDuff  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:05:03pm

re: #402 Charles

In looking at this guy's ATTRIBUTABLE record, it's a bit moot as to whether he's a "Truther" or not, in fact, it's a very minor issue. It's a bit like arguing whether Stalin was guilty of animal abuse.

426 LoquaciousLady  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:05:03pm

re: #410 LudwigVanQuixote

Fox is the largest media outlet these days and they were vig during Bush too. Fox lies a lot to say the least. The myth that the MSM is all moonbat left is not true anymore. The largest outlet says the most extreme rightwing lies.

So, if all conservatives watched Fox, and no liberals and moderates watched Fox then they would be the largest media outlet, and yet the media would still be majority leftist.

427 redmonkey  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:05:12pm

re: #407 Sharmuta

Would you believe unnamed sources if this was a republican administration?


If it would posted on site with good reputation - yes.

428 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:05:28pm

re: #408 CommonCents

A thinly veiled threat is still a threat. Knock that shit off.

429 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:06:25pm

re: #413 CyanSnowHawk

Wow.

Yes, wow. And I'll bet over 40 of them came from Duecers who were banned. That little shit Rick Martinez (aka Rodan) has put up comments on his little vile hate site claiming that Charles is defending and supports Van Jones. Rodan is a lying sack of shit, as is that TQCincy moron.

430 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:06:30pm

re: #419 solicitr

Downding for the disgusting insult to Ludwig. Your post could have been purest gold (which I assure it was not) but no-one sensible would grant you any credit after that.

431 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:06:42pm

re: #402 Charles

Read my post! The truthers MISLED people into signing one document, then put their names on an entirely different document.

Why is it so hard for people to grasp this?

I grasp it and don't understand the controversy. There is some emotion working here I cannot identify.

432 ladycatnip  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:07:44pm
If you want to get upset at Van Jones for something real, instead of allegations that come from conspiracy hate sites, here’s a good candidate; he supported the release of cop killer Mumia Abu Jamal.

Perhaps it's safer to go after Jones for being a truther than going after him for supporting Mumia's release - which is a highly charged emotional issue for many African Americans around the globe who consider him to be a political prisoner rather than a cold-blooded murderer.

433 redmonkey  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:08:08pm

re: #416 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course not. This has never been about what is true or right. It is about wanting to win and wanting to believe it so that vengeance can be extracted by any means.

Another old proverb:

The best revenge is leading a good life.

Please, don't answer for other people. Could you read mind? And please, stop generalization. I think, you should apologize.

434 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:08:39pm

re: #408 CommonCents

1) Liberals, who are mislabeled as such, have prevented pop from taking his kid out to the post to straighten him up by throwing pops in jail for child abuse based on their philosophy of no corporal punishment is good.
2) Working harder after getting whupped still is a conservative value. Getting whupped and crying to the government for unlimited unemployment benefits is a democrat trait.
3) Your lucky that you posted that last paragraph from an undisclosed location and I'll just leave it at that to preserve my account.

Hang on here. Beating children to "straighten them up" is a conservative value according to you? Is this a majority opinion?

Are unemployed conservatives/republicans foregoing extensions to their unemployment benefits?

Are physical threats and intimidation conservative talking points, or just yours?

435 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:08:54pm

re: #432 ladycatnip

Perhaps it's safer to go after Jones for being a truther than going after him for supporting Mumia's release - which is a highly charged emotional issue for many African Americans around the globe who consider him to be a political prisoner rather than a cold-blooded murderer.

Well, the Mumia issue has the advantage of being TRUE.

But if you don't care about that, knock yourself out.

436 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:09:57pm

re: #431 ggt

I grasp it and don't understand the controversy. There is some emotion working here I cannot identify.

ODS. Some people are so desperate to hate Obama and everything he does that they will listen to any crackpot theory, even if it means aligning themselves with truthers.

It's not about truth. It's purely a scorched earth policy as was said yesterday: Destroy the enemy.

437 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:10:20pm

Yes, I do know who she is. She is prominent enough in her field to be of particular value to those 9-11 conspiracy theorists would just love to have her name on a petition. Zinn, too. However, I'm not sure this lot would even have known who Van Jones was in 2004.

438 alegrias  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:10:38pm

re: #423 Charles

Do you even know who Rachel Ehrenfeld is?

* * **
I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Ehrenfeld after 9/11, and have an autographed book of hers.

439 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:10:56pm

re: #436 iceweasel

ODS. Some people are so desperate to hate Obama and everything he does that they will listen to any crackpot theory, even if it means aligning themselves with truthers.

It's not about truth. It's purely a scorched earth policy as was said yesterday: Destroy the enemy.

thank you for that...it's certainly not all...

440 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:11:38pm

re: #57 Kenneth

Out of my pajamas and all cleaned up in a suit & tie... waiting for the women folk to get dressed...

I am pleased to see Van Jones has been vindicated and given the chance to explain how his name came to be on that petition, under false pretenses. He has also denounced the whole Truther movement.

I hope we have all learned from something from this incident, that we should never leap to condemn somebody on the basis of a circumstantial and unsubstantiated association with a disreputable group.

re: #129 Kenneth

That's how it should be. The burden of truth rests on the accusers, not the accused. It is absurd to expect somebody should have to defend themselves against unfounded accusations.

Well said.

441 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:11:38pm

Van Jones, from a video clip quoted by Fox News:

Right now we're saying we want to move from suicidal gray capitalism to some kind of eco-capitalism where, you know, at least we're not — you know fast-tracking the destruction of the whole planet.

Will that be enough? No, it won't be enough. We want to go beyond excess and exploitation and oppression altogether, but that's a process.

Yep; the ultimate goal is to leave excessive, exploitative, oppressive capitalism itself behind. "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need", and alla that...

Just gotta work that process...

442 LoquaciousLady  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:11:54pm

re: #432 ladycatnip

Perhaps it's safer to go after Jones for being a truther than going after him for supporting Mumia's release - which is a highly charged emotional issue for many African Americans around the globe who consider him to be a political prisoner rather than a cold-blooded murderer.

I think most political "gotchas" are the minor issue. (The Lewinski Affair comes to mind.)

443 redmonkey  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:12:01pm

The Van Jones (non) feeding frenzy
By: Byron York
Chief Political Correspondent
09/04/09 11:30 AM EDT
From a Nexis search a few moments ago:

Total words about the Van Jones controversy in the New York Times: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy in the Washington Post: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on NBC Nightly News: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on ABC World News: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on CBS Evening News: 0.

If you were to receive all your news from any one of these outlets, or even all of them together, and you heard about some sort of controversy involving President Obama's Special Adviser for Green Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, your response would be, "Huh?" If you heard that that adviser, Van Jones, had apologized for a number of remarks and positions in the recent past, your response would be, "What?" And if you were in the Obama White House monitoring the Jones situation, you would be hoping that the news organizations listed above continue to hold the line -- otherwise, Jones, who is quite well thought of in Obama circles, would be history

Media

444 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:12:17pm

re: #402 Charles

Read my post! The truthers MISLED people into signing one document, then put their names on an entirely different document.

Why is it so hard for people to grasp this?

Maybe some here think they are too smart to be victimized in this way, and find it hard to believe that such intelligent and sophisticated folks could be so easily misled.

445 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:12:17pm

re: #393 CyanSnowHawk

Pretty good list of Drudge Headlines, but like those headlines, each based on a real problem. Even the one I mentioned is based on a real problem. What the hell was George Will thinking? I kept looking for a sarc tag and never found one.

But you see they are also Fox headlines. I am sure that Drudge has even worse, but Fox is the largest media outlet by a lot in terms of viewers.

446 CommonCents  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:12:35pm

re: #428 CyanSnowHawk

A thinly veiled threat is still a threat. Knock that shit off.

I didn't threaten anything. But I'll reference the rules...

"Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked. "

We have to accept the reality that American conservatives are just as fat, lazy and stupid - filled with the same whiny sense of entitlement

What does that sound like to you?

447 mfarmer1  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:12:58pm

I'll say it again. Van Jones being a Troofer would be a step up for him. With just what we have on tape recently of this guy in his own words should disqualify him from setting one foot inside the White House gates. He shouldn't be able to get a clearance to be a night clerk at a 7-11. He belongs with those lunatics across the street from the White House in that tent set up since 1983 protesting everything in this nation and promoting every conspiratorial piece of nonsense out there. Those nutters are his brethren despite his Yale polished GQ facade.

It doesn't take much to imagine the outright hatred of this country this guy probably spews in private circles with his like minded pukes. He's a habitual long term creep (not speculation, but there for all to see in his own words and actions) who only has recently been busted. He's the burglar who finally got nailed who burgled 300 houses before he got caught.

He's going down. Rightly so. The spotlight needs to get turned on the next radical anti-American racist punk in this administration. Shooting fish in a barrel is probably more challenging.

448 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:13:08pm

re: #441 Salamantis

Just like Obama himself.. "well we won't be able to get rid of insurance companies altogether, at least not right away..."

449 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:13:16pm

re: #437 katemaclaren

Yes, I do know who she is. She is prominent enough in her field to be of particular value to those 9-11 conspiracy theorists would just love to have her name on a petition. Zinn, too. However, I'm not sure this lot would even have known who Van Jones was in 2004.

So do you think Ehrenfeld is also lying when she says her name was put on the document without her knowledge?

And believe me -- on the left, Van Jones was MUCH better-known than Rachel Ehrenfeld.

450 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:13:33pm

Well, I have to make a run to Toys R Us. See you later. ...and as we are often directed to do (and a directive with which I'm in full agreement) "Play nice."

451 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:13:41pm

re: #439 Charpete67

thank you for that...it's certainly not all...

Definitely not all, and not all criticisms of Obama are automatically symptoms of ODS.
Just like not all criticisms of Bush were symptoms of BDS.

The DS sufferers discredit legitimate critics and drive reasonable criticism out of the spotlight. It happened on the left and now it's happening on the right. Bad news.

452 bruce rheinstein  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:14:16pm

Rachel Ehrenfeld has been saying for years that her name was erroniously included on the document, which is not the case for Van Jones.

Has Jones actually said his name was erroniously (or fraudulently) included, or has he merely disavowed that he believed Bush (or members of his administration) knew about 9/11 beforehand?

A non-denial denial comes pretty close to being an admission.

453 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:14:32pm

re: #441 Salamantis

Van Jones, from a video clip quoted by Fox News:

Yep; the ultimate goal is to leave excessive, exploitative, oppressive capitalism itself behind. "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need", and alla that...

Just gotta work that process...

...see, there's plenty there...

454 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:14:51pm

re: #403 Arbalest

I read your post.

Is it reasonable to believe that a political activist as intense as Van Jones (and in the local scheme of things, important) would only be involved with an event, and not on the organizing committee?

I think “no”, simply because of how such people operate. Jones needs the power, attention, and resume box checked; the Truthers and other doing the event would gain much and lose nothing by including Jones on the committee.

In any event, it seems clear that Jones knew who he was associating with. The ball is in his court.

Perhaps more information will come to light over the next few days.

You missed my point. Unfortunately, I can't post the rense document here. If I could it would become clear. There were two posts on the page. I'm looking at a PDF I saved right now. At the top of the page is the title "SAN FRANCISCO MARCH TO DEMAND CONGRESSIONAL INQUIRY OF 911, from Carol Brouillet. Her piece ends. There are three number symbols. These things.

###

That separate her post from what is below.

The other document starts this way

PLEASE FREELY DISTRIBUTE AND POST

JANUARY 3, 2002

Prospectus

WAR TIMES (working title) A New, Biweekly, Tabloid Newspaper Opposing the "War on Terrorism"

The terrorist attacks of September 11 marked the beginning of a new and

Notice how that document called September 11 a terrorist attack. Van Jones' name appeared below that document -- not the call for a March to demand an inquiry of 9-11.

What I found could very well be the source document.

455 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:14:53pm

have a great day all!

456 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:14:59pm

re: #451 iceweasel

Definitely not all, and not all criticisms of Obama are automatically symptoms of ODS.
Just like not all criticisms of Bush were symptoms of BDS.

The DS sufferers discredit legitimate critics and drive reasonable criticism out of the spotlight. It happened on the left and now it's happening on the right. Bad news.

...and, we're not all racists either...

457 CommonCents  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:15:18pm

re: #434 Coracle

Hang on here. Beating children to "straighten them up" is a conservative value according to you? Is this a majority opinion? No. There is a difference between 'beating' and a slap or spanking.

Are unemployed conservatives/republicans foregoing extensions to their unemployment benefits?no they are not. but a sampling of which voting block the majority of our welfare recipients flock to would back me up on this.

Are physical threats and intimidation conservative talking points, or just yours?


You are assuming a physical threat.

458 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:15:50pm

re: #449 Charles

Absolutely not. Like I tried to say, maybe not clearly, if anyone's name was to be forged or placed on the petition, it would be someone who would be as prominent as she is and with her background. That's all.

459 Nadnerb  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:16:06pm

re: #378 MandyManners

Well, a hat tip to Jammie Wearing Fool, then.

460 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:16:12pm

And now even Ace of Spades is claiming that I'm "supporting" Van Jones, despite every statement I've made to the contrary.

461 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:16:27pm

re: #457 CommonCents

You are assuming a physical threat.

3) Your lucky that you posted that last paragraph from an undisclosed location and I'll just leave it at that to preserve my account.

Yeah. I was.

462 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:16:38pm
Is hiring an executive branch employee who approves of Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter better than hiring a guy who was a Marxist and who's current political thought is dubious?

Uh, yes. Good God! The appropriate analogy would be some GOP president appointing a neo-Nazi or unrepentant Klansman.

463 CommonCents  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:17:40pm

re: #460 Charles

And now even Ace of Spades is claiming that I'm "supporting" Van Jones, despite every statement I've made to the contrary.

Some people can't tell the difference between defense and support. Or maybe they just wait for an opening to stretch something into what it is not.

464 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:17:51pm

re: #458 katemaclaren

Absolutely not. Like I tried to say, maybe not clearly, if anyone's name was to be forged or placed on the petition, it would be someone who would be as prominent as she is and with her background. That's all.

In other words, you're saying that, at the time, Van Jones wasn't big enough for it to be worth their while to forge his name. That makes sense.

465 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:18:06pm
466 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:18:46pm

re: #460 Charles

Wow, this nonsense has really opened my eyes.

467 CommonCents  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:19:22pm

re: #461 Coracle

Yeah. I was.

Fine, I retract point 3, but I'm standing by 1 and 2.

468 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:19:50pm

re: #449 Charles

...well, I can't see the advantage, frankly, to mislead him into signing the petition in 2004.
Now, my little guy is straining at the reins here, so I must be off to the toy store.

469 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:20:06pm

re: #460 Charles

And now even Ace of Spades is claiming that I'm "supporting" Van Jones, despite every statement I've made to the contrary.

Ace of Spades is a schmuck and always has been. When he's not comparing women's vaginas to bacon and Play-doh (and I am not making that up) he's saying even worse things.

It's no surprise that the sub-literate Ace would be incapable of reading and understanding simple sentences-- or capable of distorting them and misrepresenting them even if he did understand.

Feh.

470 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:20:12pm

re: #467 CommonCents

Then my questions on those points from #434 still stand.

471 y0kkles  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:20:25pm

Whether or not he is a truther is not as important as the fact that the man is a self-declared Communist. That fact alone means he shouldn't be in the position that he is.

472 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:20:51pm

re: #361 Arbalest

Thie big pcture of Van Jones’ career is known: essentially a severe Marxist, very politically active and known to associate with various radical / fringe / whatever groups in the area; in this case SF-Oakland.

Salamanits, in post 23, provides a plausible answer, Jones did the politically expedient thing, and signed.

Via a link from Hot Air, this article by Jake Tapper at ABC News:

Link: [Link: blogs.abcnews.com...]

and this quote:

”But in March 2002, a march in San Francisco was called to demand a congressional inquiry into 9/11. Jones was on the "organizing committee."

Jones was on the "organizing committee.". Is it even remotely reasonable to assume he did not know what the major views of the Truthers, with whom he associated, were?

No. People who live / work in close proximity to others tend to become familiar with the views, beliefs and practices of others. New York City is a case in point. The fact that Catholics, Jews and Protestants that lived in the same neighborhoods and or worked together tended to become knowledgeable about each other’s religious beliefs and practices seems adequate proof.

Van Jones’ actions may be just political expediency, but maybe not. In any case, at this point, the ball is in Jones’ court, and Jones has some explaining to do.

Once again: the "ABC" story here is straight from Rense.

The explanation for all this that makes the most sense is that Troofers are lying, and that a very disturbing number of people are more than willing to listen to Troofers when they bleat things people want to hear.

473 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:20:59pm

re: #457 CommonCents

You are assuming a physical threat.

It was clearly a threat, and a childish one at that.

474 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:21:04pm

re: #111 ckb

Ummm, what difference to Obama's college transcripts make?

Just really curious why one needs to go on that particular fishing expedition.

Tell you what I am certain of - absolutely certain of.

Obama got better grades in much tougher classes than any of the leading Republicans in the past 10 years.

That does not alone make him a great president, but demanding his transcripts in the hopes that he got a bad mark in something is not only foolish, but likely to be embarrassing to the GOP if they had to give their transcripts.

I do recall that W. was proud of his C average at Yale.

Just to give the way that people who care about education look at grades, it goes like this. It was also how I was raised.

Assuming that you are not taking some trivial class - and we all know the difference between rocks for jocks and a course on the Carolingians, or vector calculus...

A = Adequate.
B = Bad
C = Catastrophe
D = Don't go out for at least a semester while you study
F = Forget it! You are not going to have me pay 10k a year for you!

475 Code Red 21  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:21:14pm

re: #460 Charles

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

476 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:21:27pm

re: #446 CommonCents

Defend it all you want.

"408 CommonCents [deleted] 9/04/2009 11:59:34 am PDT" tells me that I was on the right track.

477 flyers1974  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:22:28pm

re: #462 solicitr

Uh, yes. Good God! The appropriate analogy would be some GOP president appointing a neo-Nazi or unrepentant Klansman.

Not really. Neo-Nazi's and KKK types neccessarily believe that some groups of humans are sub-humans. It involves hatred of other people based on race. Belief in communism does entail same.

478 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:22:41pm

re: #457 CommonCents

You are assuming a physical threat.

I will be attacked by psychic means? All good... I think I can handle that.

479 CommonCents  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:23:08pm

re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote

But you see they are also Fox headlines. I am sure that Drudge has even worse, but Fox is the largest media outlet by a lot in terms of viewers.

I'd swear that on the Fox Morning Show they are reading the Drudge Headlines. If you pull up Drudge at around 6:00am and then listen to what Fox reports it's uncanny the similarity. I consider it laziness (and yes I'm an American conservative).

480 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:23:14pm

re: #478 LudwigVanQuixote

I will be attacked by psychic means? All good... I think I can handle that.

I am attacking you right now...can you feel it?

481 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:23:48pm

re: #478 LudwigVanQuixote

Your psychic powers know no bounds.

482 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:23:55pm

re: #480 Charpete67

I am attacking you right now...can you feel it?

OOWWW!!! Wrong target! More to the North!

483 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:24:39pm
484 Dahveed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:24:41pm

On an different level, what kind of job has Van Jones even done? I am not even sure what his job entails. But with all the jobs that have been lost in the past however many months and all the stimulus money that was supposed to be spent on green projects, how many jobs have actually been created under his watch so far?

485 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:25:07pm
486 Code Red 21  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:25:25pm

re: #480 Charpete67

I am attacking you right now...can you feel it?

I can feel it and I'm way over here. You're good.

487 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:25:41pm

re: #480 Charpete67

I am attacking you right now...can you feel it?

The force is strong in you! The dark side I sense...

:)

488 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:25:46pm
489 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:27:26pm

re: #487 LudwigVanQuixote

what were they doing before their heads exploded...

490 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:28:38pm

re: #474 LudwigVanQuixote

Hi Ludwig! Yeah, I don't really care about the transcripts either. I might be wrong here, but it seems that folks who do care fall into two groups (maybe with crossover).

One group does seem to want to play "gotcha" - hoping to learn that he had some "bad" grades.

The other seems to be interested in the courses he took - particularly electives - to see what course material, and which professors, helped shape his views/philosophy during his college and grad years.

As I say, it's only an observation, and not something I really care about personally.

491 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:29:18pm

re: #489 Charpete67

what were they doing before their heads exploded...

It's from Scanners a rather famous sci-fi from the early 80's with psychic powers...

492 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:29:31pm

re: #484 Dahveed

On an different level, what kind of job has Van Jones even done? I am not even sure what his job entails. But with all the jobs that have been lost in the past however many months and all the stimulus money that was supposed to be spent on green projects, how many jobs have actually been created under his watch so far?

Zero or next to it. Green jobs are pretty much a myth.

493 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:29:43pm
494 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:29:55pm

re: #479 CommonCents

I consider it laziness (and yes I'm an American conservative).

Much of MSM malfeasance is not outright bias, often it is just the result of lazy hacks using cut and paste and renta quotes to churn out the same story as everyone else.

As far a Ludwig, he was talking generally about the group, you personalized it.

495 Pythagoras  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:30:08pm

re: #391 Charles

I'm not exaggerating. I've received more than 50 hate mails about this, full of insults and invective.

This bothers me deeply. Obviously, I understand people less well than I thought. How can people go nuts over your position?

Charles, could you indulge me a bit and summarize their objections (wild guess, they think you're in denial??). Please at least confirm that they're angry at your partial defense of Van Jones and not that you won't be unhappy if he's forced to step down.

I need to rethink some things.

496 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:30:47pm

Later, Comrades!

[Link: www.rathergood.com...]

497 CommonCents  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:30:50pm

re: #476 CyanSnowHawk

Defend it all you want.

"408 CommonCents [deleted] 9/04/2009 11:59:34 am PDT" tells me that I was on the right track.

Was I "beaten" or slapped?

498 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:31:04pm

re: #490 subsailor68

Hi Ludwig! Yeah, I don't really care about the transcripts either. I might be wrong here, but it seems that folks who do care fall into two groups (maybe with crossover).

One group does seem to want to play "gotcha" - hoping to learn that he had some "bad" grades.

The other seems to be interested in the courses he took - particularly electives - to see what course material, and which professors, helped shape his views/philosophy during his college and grad years.

As I say, it's only an observation, and not something I really care about personally.

For certain you are right. There is nothing like finding the hidden commie code in some term paper he wrote...

On the other hand, it is just as likely that he really did get good grades in difficult classes and that they want to paint him as a brainiac that is nothing like anyone normal... Because that just isn't folksy...

499 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:31:11pm

re: #409 tackle

I was in Santiago Chile when Katrina happened and for about 2 weeks afterward. I was appalled at what had been reported down there when I got back to the US and got the real scoop. No joke, CNN International and the BBC were estimating 20,000 to 50,000 deaths at least.

500 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:31:34pm

re: #490 subsailor68

Hi Ludwig! Yeah, I don't really care about the transcripts either. I might be wrong here, but it seems that folks who do care fall into two groups (maybe with crossover).

One group does seem to want to play "gotcha" - hoping to learn that he had some "bad" grades.

The other seems to be interested in the courses he took - particularly electives - to see what course material, and which professors, helped shape his views/philosophy during his college and grad years.

As I say, it's only an observation, and not something I really care about personally.

I personally think it comes from when the press would talk about how smart Kerry and Gore were vs Bush...and then they found out both had a lower GPA (or about the same) as Bush. I would think that if Ob-ma had good grades, they would have released his transcripts. Just my guess...I wouldn't care if he had a 2.0 GPA except the press thinks he's so smart.

501 Waste93  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:31:53pm

Just because some of the signatories say they were mislead that doesn't mean all of them were. So you need to look at other things to see if Jones is being 'truthful' about what happened. It would not be the first time a politician or political appointee tried a CYA by claiming they were taken out of context or that a staffer went off message.

Apparently there may be another document showing his name on another 'truther' document from 2002. If it appears on two it may appear on more. Do some digging and find out. See if their name appears on more documents from the group or if they have close associations with it's members. Taking their word for it seems a bit lazy. Maybe I'm a skeptic, but it's generally safe to say that politicians and political appointees will lie to cover their back side.

502 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:31:57pm

re: #493 taxfreekiller

Is the sky blue on your planet, too?

503 mfarmer1  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:32:10pm

re: #484 Dahveed

Good question. My hunch is that a guy who installs solar panels for pools has, oh, about a trillion times more insight into green energy and what needs to be done than Van Jones. And the solar panel installer dude actually provides a service which is immediately demonstrable and effective as well.

504 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:33:20pm

re: #491 LudwigVanQuixote

It's from Scanners a rather famous sci-fi from the early 80's with psychic powers...

...oh...it looked like they were doing something else...

505 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:33:38pm

re: #501 Waste93

Just because some of the signatories say they were mislead that doesn't mean all of them were. So you need to look at other things to see if Jones is being 'truthful' about what happened. It would not be the first time a politician or political appointee tried a CYA by claiming they were taken out of context or that a staffer went off message.

Apparently there may be another document showing his name on another 'truther' document from 2002. If it appears on two it may appear on more. Do some digging and find out. See if their name appears on more documents from the group or if they have close associations with it's members. Taking their word for it seems a bit lazy. Maybe I'm a skeptic, but it's generally safe to say that politicians and political appointees will lie to cover their back side.

Again and again people pop in to cite a page that appears on a conspiracy hate site.

506 CommonCents  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:33:42pm

re: #494 Bagua

Much of MSM malfeasance is not outright bias, often it is just the result of lazy hacks using cut and paste and renta quotes to churn out the same story as everyone else.

As far a Ludwig, he was talking generally about the group, you personalized it.

I disagree with you on the bias point, but I wholly accept the second 1/2 of your post.

I think the bias in the media exposes itself most in what certain organizations don't report as to what they do report.

507 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:34:10pm

re: #504 Charpete67

...oh...it looked like they were doing something else...

Well, that is why people used to joke that Superman could never marry Lois Lane...

508 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:34:22pm
509 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:34:55pm

re: #500 Charpete67

I personally think it comes from when the press would talk about how smart Kerry and Gore were vs Bush...and then they found out both had a lower GPA (or about the same) as Bush. I would think that if Ob-ma had good grades, they would have released his transcripts. Just my guess...I wouldn't care if he had a 2.0 GPA except the press thinks he's so smart.

Hi Charpete67! You're very probably right on that. It does seem to be a double standard doesn't it? And I'm with ya that I too wouldn't care if he was a 2.0. (Hey, in the Navy, our motto in school was "Get a 2.5 and survive"...and then they gave us a nuclear submarine to drive around!)

;-)

510 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:35:12pm

re: #508 taxfreekiller

That is a response?

No. It was a question.

511 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:35:17pm

re: #495 Pythagoras

This bothers me deeply. Obviously, I understand people less well than I thought. How can people go nuts over your position

This is kicking up issues in a lot of people apparently

512 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:35:20pm

re: #501 Waste93

Maybe you missed it. I've posted this several times now.

I searched for hours yesterday to find something -- anything -- that would back up the claim that Van Jones is a Truther. I found absolutely nothing credible.

The ONLY sources for this are hate sites and Truther sites.

513 Lincolntf  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:35:42pm

Green jobs have electrolytes!!

514 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:36:10pm

Gotta roll lizards... Shabbos thing and all, got to get some stuff down before the sundown.

Be well, stay scaly, and keep up the ninjitsu...

515 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:37:14pm

re: #509 subsailor68

Hi Charpete67! You're very probably right on that. It does seem to be a double standard doesn't it? And I'm with ya that I too wouldn't care if he was a 2.0. (Hey, in the Navy, our motto in school was "Get a 2.5 and survive"...and then they gave us a nuclear submarine to drive around!)

;-)

...I would like to have them released and see he was an average student...but, it would purely be for sport...

516 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:37:50pm

re: #495 Pythagoras

This bothers me deeply. Obviously, I understand people less well than I thought. How can people go nuts over your position?

Charles, could you indulge me a bit and summarize their objections (wild guess, they think you're in denial??). Please at least confirm that they're angry at your partial defense of Van Jones and not that you won't be unhappy if he's forced to step down.

I need to rethink some things.

The hate mail is still pouring in, and now that Ace has outright lied about my position, they're starting to echo his stupid claim that this is a "Dan Rather moment."

None of these people seem to care or even acknowledge that I've stated clearly I do NOT support Van Jones.

They're just raging at me because I won't jump into the fever swamp with them.

517 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:38:06pm

test...Sorry

518 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:39:09pm

re: #513 Lincolntf

Green jobs have electrolytes!!

Green Jobs: The Employment Mutilator

519 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:39:21pm
Obama got better grades in much tougher classes than any of the leading Republicans in the past 10 years

Oh, puh-leeez!

Obama himself admits he was nearly at the bottom of his class at Occidental. We know this much about his time at Columbia- he failed to graduate with honors, even with a poli-sci major!

Meanwhile, of course Gore was an academic anchor-man, flunking out of divinity school and just scraping through Harvard. Compare, say, Newt Gingrich (Ph.D. Tulane, Modern European History).

But the real proof is the fact that since taking office (before, really), Obam has proven himself to be a singularly ill-educated and shallow man, a real second-rater. Review again his Cairo speech for (a) his pig-ignorance of history, and (b) its manifold failures of basic logic.

That's not even getting into the Austrian language, the utility of Arabic interpreters in Afghanistan, and of course his batshit insane economic views.

Possession of an Ivy League liberal-arts BA doesn't prove much- the tough part is getting in, which for certain special people (e.g. named Kennedy, Bush or Gore, or sponsored by oil sheiks) isn't much of a problem. And in the liberal arts it's possible for even a drooling idiot to graduate, since it's nearly impossible to flunk out. Again: Ted Kennedy. QED.

---

But this really misses the point: who was he studying under??? Was he in fact an acolyte of Edward Said, Richard Cloward or Frances Piven? What was his thesis topic and what did he write? How active was he in radical organizations besides the ones we know about ("Students Against Militarism" and the CND)?

In ANY election prior to 2008, or with any President other than Obama, our 'free' press would have dug and dug discovered these things, as readily as they discovered Joe Wurzelbacher's tax records, because there was this silly old-fashioned notion that the electorate ought to know who a candidate really is. But in Obamamerica, the Little People can't be allowed to know anything the man who proclaimed himself a Blank Slate.

520 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:39:58pm
521 wiffersnapper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:40:33pm

Troofers, Birthers, JFK. Conspiracy theories show that politics is circular.

522 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:40:52pm

re: #477 flyers1974

Not really. Neo-Nazi's and KKK types neccessarily believe that some groups of humans are sub-humans. It involves hatred of other people based on race. Belief in communism does entail same.

Oh, how lame. So Communists are better because they're equal-opportunity mass-murderers???

523 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:40:52pm

re: #513 Lincolntf

Green jobs have electrolytes!!

I thought they had midichlorians.

One thing I'd like to know is whether an industrial retargeting, such as cars for wind turbines (not that that particular example is realistic) would be considered "green job growth".

524 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:41:01pm

re: #521 wiffersnapper

Troofers, Birthers, JFK. Conspiracy theories show that politics is circular.

Yes. Like a toilet.

525 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:41:12pm

re: #506 CommonCents

I disagree with you on the bias point, but I wholly accept the second 1/2 of your post.

I think the bias in the media exposes itself most in what certain organizations don't report as to what they do report.

Yes that is called selection bias, they choose what issues to show and which to ignore, some of which is agenda based and some following the herd or their own personal bias.

I'm not clear what you disagree with.

526 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:44:24pm
527 Code Red 21  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:45:55pm

re: #474 LudwigVanQuixote
When were BO's transcripts made public?

528 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:46:30pm

re: #519 solicitr

Oh, puh-leeez!

Obama himself admits he was nearly at the bottom of his class at Occidental. [...]

Good for you, launch into an irrelevant rant that shows you are motivated from hatred and agenda.

529 Pythagoras  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:47:29pm

re: #516 Charles

The hate mail is still pouring in, . . . They're just raging at me because I won't jump into the fever swamp with them.

I like the term "fever swamp." It seems like people (in ANY extremist position) almost seem to hate the grown-ups most of all. They just can't stand anyone who wants to be careful, measured, professional, fact-checking, etc. They seem to get less angry at someone who is simply on the other side as long as they are equally childish.

Hmmm. Maybe their real cause is moon-battery in general -- not the issue at hand.

Oh God, I just had a horrible Billy Mays vision.

530 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:47:37pm

The midichlorian thingie was one of the weakest, lamest postulates of the Star Wars substructure. How'd the rascals get on all the planets and into all those different beings, anyway? Panspermia? And why, being phagic rather than genetic, did they tend to cluster in families?

They'd have been much better off going with the occasional recurrence of an inheritable genetic pattern that occurred (rarely) in many sentient species, simply as a result of the response of consciously self-aware life to its surroundings.

531 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:48:40pm

re: #530 Salamantis

Hey Sal, Right on.
Wherever else we disagree, we are apparently blood brothers on SW mythos.

532 Charpete67  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:49:29pm

re: #530 Salamantis

The midichlorian thingie was one of the weakest, lamest postulates of the Star Wars substructure. How'd the rascals get on all the planets and into all those different beings, anyway? Panspermia? And why, being phagic rather than genetic, did they tend to cluster in families?

They'd have been much better off going with the occasional recurrence of an inheritable genetic pattern that occurred (rarely) in many sentient species, simply as a result of the response of consciously self-aware life to its surroundings.

...u lot smart'r 'n me...

533 alegrias  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:49:47pm

re: #527 Code Red 21

When were BO's transcripts made public?

* ** *
I don't think our newest "Education President"'s transcripts have been "released".

Whereas, the DNC is loudly trumpeting the Virginia GOP candidate's 1978 masters thesis bloopers to disqualify McDonnell, formerly Virginia's Attorney General.

534 akalivas  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:50:36pm

re: #325 Charles

I think this issue has brought in more irrational hate mail than anything else I've posted. And a lot of it is much more abusive than anything I ever received from a leftist.

Charles is there a moral to this? I understand that you are stating a particular fact: that some of the hate mail you are receiving from the right is more abusive than anything you have ever received from the left. But, are you implying that rightists are more abusive/hateful/violent generally? Sorry for the question. I'm not playing gotcha. I'm just a bit torn over your "crusade" (can I say that?) to point out the right versus left abuses.

I'm pretty sure you are trying to keep things honest by pointing out that the right and the left are the same... There are no angels here. People on the right are just as prone to ugly behavior as people on the left. Is this what you are saying?

Personally, my bias is that while both sides can be really bad, the leftists are somewhat worse more often. But is your bias working the other way? I write this because it seems to me that you take great pains in posting the foibles/ugliness of the right and that you do this more thoroughly and with more relish than you do with the abuses of those on the left. Of course I know that you have been posting for years about the left's nonsense (especially the anti-Israel pro-Islamist stuff). But, as I said, following your site leaves me feeling somewhat torn about what your views are of conservatives. Do you believe conservatives are worse?

535 Code Red 21  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:51:42pm

re: #533 alegrias

* ** *
I don't think our newest "Education President"'s transcripts have been "released".

Whereas, the DNC is loudly trumpeting the Virginia GOP candidate's 1978 masters thesis bloopers to disqualify McDonnell, formerly Virginia's Attorney General.


That's what I thought and was wondering where Ludwig got the info from.

536 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:54:46pm

re: #535 Code Red 21

That's what I thought and was wondering where Ludwig got the info from.

He brought up his own thesis in an interview, and the reporter and others dug into it. He dug the grave himself.

537 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:55:03pm

re: #534 akalivas

I'm stating a fact. I'm not implying anything. The hate mail I'm getting on this issue is radically more abusive than the mail I've received from upset lefties.

No, I don't believe "conservatives are worse." There are thousands of examples on this blog of bad behavior from leftists.

However, right now I see a whole lot of conservative blogs and commentators who have gone completely off the rails. I can't sign on to this crap. It makes me slightly ill to see it.

538 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:57:07pm

re: #29 Land Shark

Whole lotta signatories being misled. It's like an epidemic.

Let's not forget Robert Spencer claims he was misled too when he signed up for that website that wanted the Greeks to re-assert control over land lost to the Turks and expel the current Muslim inhabitants.

Moral of the stories: don't sign anything unless you're damn sure you know what it is you're signing.

Robert Spencer signed on to that Facebook page when its agenda was spelled out very clearly, right there in front of him. Nobody tried to mislead him.

539 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:57:59pm

re: #530 Salamantis

The midichlorian thingie was one of the weakest, lamest postulates of the Star Wars substructure. How'd the rascals get on all the planets and into all those different beings, anyway? Panspermia? And why, being phagic rather than genetic, did they tend to cluster in families?

They'd have been much better off going with the occasional recurrence of an inheritable genetic pattern that occurred (rarely) in many sentient species, simply as a result of the response of consciously self-aware life to its surroundings.

Totally agree. And let's not forget that it completely undermines the story as laid out in the original three films, that "the Force" was developed through a process of enlightenment. If it were just some bacteria thingy, wouldn't the Empire be serving it to their Star Troopers in yogurt or something? Or put whatever the active ingredient was in skin patches? Slap on a couple of those, along with an erectile dysfunction patch and WATCH OUT, BABY! I mean, an empire with the technology to keep a deep roasted quadriplegic alive and kicking, and build moon-size planetary destroying weapons can't figure out how to make use of technology equivalent to churning out moonshine?

Gad, what were they thinking? The sponsors should have paid a security guard to keep Lucas as far away from a word processor as possible. Even JarJar seems like a deep, complex character when held up next to midichlorians.

540 ladycatnip  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:58:53pm

#435 Charles

Well, the Mumia issue has the advantage of being TRUE.

But if you don't care about that, knock yourself out.

You jumped to the wrong conclusion about my post. You were making the point that there are bigger fish to fry, i.e., Mumia, and yet people still seemed glued to the truther issue which has little basis in fact.

I suggested that maybe it was easier to go after someone for being a truther which has no racist overtones associated with it - I neither supported it nor endorsed it, so no, I'm not going to knock myself out. ;-)

Perhaps this is easier to run with - it gets people riled up and in a frenzy.

#442 Loquacious Lady

I think most political "gotchas" are the minor issue. (The Lewinski Affair comes to mind.)

Well put. Thanks.

541 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 12:59:52pm

re: #516 Charles

The hate mail is still pouring in, and now that Ace has outright lied about my position, they're starting to echo his stupid claim that this is a "Dan Rather moment."

None of these people seem to care or even acknowledge that I've stated clearly I do NOT support Van Jones.

They're just raging at me because I won't jump into the fever swamp with them.

It's the new tactic of the right-wing bloggers- to make something up and distort rather than base criticisms on facts and truth.

542 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:00:44pm

re: #539 SixDegrees

Actually, I think George Lucas was a secret communist plot to create a monstrously popular movie franchise that an entire generation would love, then systematically destroy it, and thus the joy of an entire generation of Western Geeks, over a period of decades.

And I bet he's not done yet.

543 CommonCents  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:01:21pm

re: #539 SixDegrees

Thanks for the laugh.

544 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:01:24pm

re: #540 ladycatnip

Perhaps this is easier to run with - it gets people riled up and in a frenzy.

How did I "jump to the wrong conclusion?" You're saying very clearly that it's "easier" to run with this story, regardless of the fact that it comes from hate sites and Truther sites.

If the truth isn't important to you, go ahead and run with it. I won't be joining you.

545 Code Red 21  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:03:33pm

re: #536 Coracle
Oh OK thanks for the info.

546 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:05:10pm

re: #530 Salamantis

I dunno, it's hard to beat the @#$%^&*@! Ewoks for lameness in the Star Wars universe. Or Jar Jar Binks. Ugh.

Still, I can't help myself, I like all the Star Wars movies. There's obviously something wrong with me. ;-)

547 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:12:01pm

G-ddamn Van Jones Clawed his way to White House. There's no way he's going to go that easily. /it's a stretch, but works as a possible post headline.

548 twobru  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:13:31pm

Charles,

Okay, I have read Ace's post on your "Dan Rather Moment" and have a question: where does he say that you are "supporting" Van Jones on the Truther nonsense? Your use of the quotations around the word supporting suggested to me that Ace specifically said that you were "supporting" Jones on this issue. But that is not what he says. He simply offered his opinion on what he views as the weak points of your defense of Jones on this issue. How is that lying? Or what specifically has he misconstrued about your position?

Thanks.

549 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:13:33pm

hmmm troofers and communists making each other look bad...


I think its great!

I would like to see a media circus with at least three rings and a clown car...

550 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:14:26pm

re: #454 HelloDare

I understood your point.

I found a web page that looks like the PDF you specify. A link to it is at the ABC News article. All in your post is true, but at the bottom, under “Organizing Committee (organizations listed for identification purposes only): ” is “Van Jones, national executive director, Ella Baker Center for Human Rights


re: #472 SixDegrees

As I read Tapper’s report, he’s using existing documents, from problematic sources to make his case.

.
Both:

My points seem to be missed.

1. Van Jones is a Marxist and a self-admitted radical, who essentially hates America.. He has a history of association with fringe groups, and is likely to have a reasonable familiarity with their views. Jones’ beliefs on Trutherism are irrelevant; in the big picture, is Jones suitable for employment by the White House? I think “no”. That he was completely hoodwinked by any of the Truthers seems highly unlikely. But if he was, his history and the evidence provided so far put the onus of proof on him.

2. Do Truthers lie? They clearly bend twist, distort, omit, misinterpret and assume facts incorrectly; if this isn’t lying, it’s close enough. But it’s important to look at the subject: is Van Jones’ signature a forgery, a lie, or something done with Jones’ knowledge? Here’s a conspiracy: specifically, did Jones sign something knowing that his signature could then be included on something else, without his knowledge, thus giving him plausible deniability? This I view as a tossup, and it’s on Jones to make his case.

There seems to be an assumption that because we’re dealing with Truthers, simply dismissing what they say is fine, because it’s tainted. Courts handle evidence and testimony this way, but this doesn’t work well in real life.

Truther garbage about why the WTC buildings fell is easily dismissed, they’re using the “questions” of a Radio-Television-Film (IIRC) Dropout (HAHAHAHAHA) to try to prove a point, not making arguments based on the report of an experienced professional engineering firm. Actuate the handle on the porcelain device.

But listing a signature of someone with a history of Marxism, activism anti-Americanism, who apparently physically associated with them?

Proximity, motive and opportunity. Ok, I’ll listen. Make the case. In this case, it is Jones who needs to defend himself.

551 ladycatnip  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:15:08pm

Charles,

People who are easily fired up and get emotionally charged over truther/birther/nirther issues will chew on it all day long because it's EASIER than dealing with facts. Especially if they're ugly controversial facts. Which I think the Mumia issue is. I never said this was the route to go. I never said this was the right thing to do.

You did not understand my post. I NEVER said I was running with it, or believed it, but was putting out a possible suggestion as to why many are.

552 MJ  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:15:42pm

Van Jones a ticking time bomb for Obama
By Yael T. Abouhalkah, Kansas City Star Editorial Page columnist

By mid-Friday, it was clear that the days of green jobs czar Van Jones are numbered in the Obama administration.

Forget radio shock jock Glenn Beck, who's trying to get Jones fired. Even White House spokesman Robert Gibbs offered only lukewarm enthusiasm for keeping Jones.

On Friday Gibbs said, "He continues to work in the administration..."


[Link: voices.kansascity.com...]

Also:

...Meanwhile, the chairman of the House Republican Conference, Rep. Mike Pence (Ind.), called on Jones to quit or be fired, saying, "His extremist views and coarse rhetoric have no place in this administration or the public debate..."


[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

553 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:16:15pm

re: #548 twobru

Right here:

Johnson now backs into a new defense of Jones...

554 flyers1974  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:17:26pm

re: #522 solicitr

Oh, how lame. So Communists are better because they're equal-opportunity mass-murderers???

Jones was not a mass-murderer and nor did he advocate murdering anyone. Not all communists believe in mass-murder. It is not inherent to the ideology, although mass murder was often required to force it on people. But its safe to say, all neo-nazis and KKK'ers believe certain groups of people are sub-human. That is because it is inherent in the ideology. That's the difference.

555 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:19:29pm

re: #550 Arbalest

There seems to be an assumption that because we’re dealing with Truthers, simply dismissing what they say is fine, because it’s tainted.

That's exactly right. Whatever you find on a Truther website should be dismissed immediately.

But the larger point is that three people have now gone on record saying they were misled by this group, and signed something that had no resemblance to the Truther document.

THAT is why you should immediately dismiss stuff you find on Truther sites.

And as for rense.com ... I don't know how any rational human being could cite that website in good faith.

556 Hanoch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:22:04pm

I don't know anything about this "truther" stuff but, as far as I am concerned, supporting the release of the thug Mumia Abu Jamal is sufficient evidence that this Van Jones is a thorough creep and has no business being a appointed to a government position.

557 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:23:51pm

saw this at http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/198707.php


# Wednesday, Sept. 11, 5:30 AM - 7:30 PM ALL-DAY SEPT. 11 PEACE GATHERING Justin Herman Plaza, Embarcadero at Market Street Join us in commemorating the tragedy of Sept. 11, 2001, and envisioning a world free of war and violence with a full day of art, culture, spirit, politics, and words of hope. 5:30 AM Buddhist Peace Service 12 Noon Break Bread for Peace Lunch Program 5:30 PM Concert w/Holly Near, Michael Franti, Ram Dass and others peace [at] globalexchange.org [Link: www.unitedforpeace.org...] 5:30 AM Buddhist Peace Service Led by the San Francisco Zen Center (impact time at the World Trade Center) 12 Noon -1:00 PM Break Bread Lunch Program Music and words of truth from diverse communities that have experienced violence 1-3pm United My Ass! [Link: www.truth-now.com...] If terrorism is a form of warfare, and war terrorizes, then what exactly is a war on terror? got freedom? God 'Less America 5:30 PM Peace Gathering & Concert Performers and presenters include: Michael Franti, Holly Near, Ram Dass Van Jones, Medea Benjamin, Dance Brigade Sat Santokh Khalsa, Guru Singh, Rabbi Michael Lerner Goapele, New Soul Singers, and others


does This places Van Jones at a truther event on Sept 11 2002?

558 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:24:17pm

Tax the rich, feed the poor
Till there are no rich no more

- "I'd Love to Change the World", by Ten Years After

559 akalivas  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:25:39pm

re: #537 Charles

Ok. Thanks for the reply Charles.

560 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:27:36pm

re: #557 rumcrook

does This places Van Jones at a truther event on Sept 11 2002?

No. It puts him at an anti-war event. He was not part of the Truther group.

561 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:29:36pm

re: #550 Arbalest

GAH! No you are not getting my point. There is another document -- not the one that Tapper links to. It may be the source document. (Please notice that I said may be the source document.

Go to the rense website. Search for "San Francisco March 2002" Scroll down slowly. You will see that Van Jones name does not follow the document about the March. It follow a post about creating a a new biweekly newspaper. In that post, 9-11 is referred to as a terrorist act.

562 Hanoch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:31:04pm

re: #558 Salamantis

So who do you tax when there are "rich no more"?

563 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:31:18pm

re: #555 Charles

My nest sentence is this:

But it’s important to look at the subject: is Van Jones’ signature a forgery, . . .

and finally this:

Proximity, motive and opportunity. Ok, I’ll listen. Make the case. In this case, it is Jones who needs to defend himself.

The problem I stated is that Jones chose to associate re. his job, with Truthers.

Dogs, fleas, . . . The stink is his.

564 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:33:18pm

re: #562 Hanoch

So who do you tax when there are "rich no more"?

Exactly the point. It's a leveling mechanism, meant to enforce equality of result, not equality of opportunity.

565 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:33:28pm

Quote attributed to Margaret Thatcher

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

566 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:35:33pm

re: #560 Charles

No. It puts him at an anti-war event. He was not part of the Truther group.

One would have thought that painfully obvious.
re: #563 Arbalest

Dogs, fleas, . . . The stink is his.

Nope, rumour, innuendo, suppositions, agenda... the fleas are on you.

567 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:36:36pm

re: #563 Arbalest

oh you beat me to it.

this guy may not be a troofer but he has laid down with so many dogs he needs a flea dip.

and charles all these nutters gathered around the manure pile so its a little hard to tell one parasite fly from another without a scorecard...

568 Hanoch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:37:21pm

re: #564 Salamantis

I assume Alvin gives 100% of his royalties to charity to avoid the immorality of accumulating wealth.

569 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:38:33pm

re: #552 MJ

Van Jones a ticking time bomb for Obama
By Yael T. Abouhalkah, Kansas City Star Editorial Page columnist


[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

I'll say two things about this: First, Gibbs is possibly the worst White House press aide ever. He sucks like a Hoover, and seems to be completely incapable of staying on message. Second, the GOP criticism of Jones is, thankfully, not insane and is actually quite on point: Jones has made remarkably offensive statements and has proven himself to be a radical extremist through such statements - no need to invoke all this Troofer bullshit.

570 twobru  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:38:48pm

Okay, and I am not trying to be an ass here, but how is this a lie? I read that line as Ace just pointing out that you are now noting that other "signatories" are saying they were misled by the Truthers and that you believe Jones should be given the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Ace has certainly spun the statement to fit his viewpoint and argument, but putting one's spin on something and making an argument are not the same as lying. And you have offered a defense of Jones on this issue (while at the same time stating why he is a kook on plenty of other issues).

I do not agree with Ace's argument on this issue. But for Ace to note in making that argument that you offered a new defense for Jones on this issue is not the same as saying that you are supporting Jones.

571 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:40:20pm

re: #563 Arbalest

My nest sentence is this:

But it’s important to look at the subject: is Van Jones’ signature a forgery, . . .

and finally this:

Proximity, motive and opportunity. Ok, I’ll listen. Make the case. In this case, it is Jones who needs to defend himself.

The problem I stated is that Jones chose to associate re. his job, with Truthers.

Dogs, fleas, . . . The stink is his.

Please.

Try reading the post at the top of this thread.

There's pretty good evidence that Jones was misled into signing something that had no Trutherism in it.

He was at an anti-war demonstration, with probably dozens of groups attending. One of those groups was a Truther group.

But Van Jones WAS NOT PART OF THAT GROUP.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

572 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:42:07pm

re: #571 Charles

I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

Thick, concrete wall.

573 ~BfromTX  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:43:06pm

re: #570 twobru

I agree.

574 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:44:15pm

re: #570 twobru

No. I have not "defended" Jones on anything. I'm criticizing the people who are hyperventilating about nonsense they find on Truther sites and hate sites.

I've said very clearly that I searched for hours to find statements by Jones that indicated he believed in Trutherism, and found absolutely nothing. If I'm defending something it isn't Van Jones -- it's the idea that accusations like this should be backed up with reliable sources. If you can't back it up, you don't go hunting for "evidence" at hate sites.

575 eric_odessit  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:47:50pm

Charles,
I agree with your mistrust of the Truthers. However, judging from what he admits to (being a Communist) and judging from his saying that the white environmentalists push pollution into the black neighborhoods (something I heard myself on TV), I would not surprise if in his case the Truthers are telling the truth, and he is lying.
But it does not matter: he should not be in the position he is in.
Eric.

576 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:48:34pm

re: #568 Hanoch

I assume Alvin gives 100% of his royalties to charity to avoid the immorality of accumulating wealth.

Here are all the lyrics:

Everywhere is freaks and hairies
Dykes and fairies, tell me where is sanity
Tax the rich, feed the poor
Till there are no rich no more

Id love to change the world
But I dont know what to do
So Ill leave it up to you

Population keeps on breeding
Nation bleeding, still more feeding economy
Life is funny, skies are sunny
Bees make honey, who needs money, monopoly

Id love to change the world
But I dont know what to do
So Ill leave it up to you

World pollution, theres no solution
Institution, electrocution
Just black and white, rich or poor
Them and us, stop the war

Id love to change the world
But I dont know what to do
So Ill leave it up to you

You've got it all wrong; he's claiming that bankrupting the rich is why taxing them enough to feed all the poor won't work.

It's actually a sad, introspective, despairing song, where he lists big problems, then admits that he has no new ideas for their solution, and that the proposed solutions don't work - so he punts them all off to others who might do better. And might not.

Like so many do.

577 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:48:54pm
In this case, it is Jones who needs to defend himself.

Last I heard, it was up to those making accusations who bore the burden of proof - it isn't up to the accused to produce a negative proof that he's innocent of the accusations. In fact, negative proof was recognized as a logical fallacy thousands of years ago, and - despite being an absolute favorite demand made by conspiracy theorists of all stripes - it is forbidden in courts of law and in any sort of logical discourse because it demands that the accused drain the entire Universe in search of an answer, and even then there is no guarantee of finding one to satisfy the accuser. See Argument from Ignorance for the history and fallacy of what you're demanding here.

578 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:49:38pm

re: #575 eric_odessit

Charles,
I agree with your mistrust of the Truthers. However, judging from what he admits to (being a Communist) and judging from his saying that the white environmentalists push pollution into the black neighborhoods (something I heard myself on TV), I would not surprise if in his case the Truthers are telling the truth, and he is lying.

OK, then go find some evidence for it. I tried for quite a while yesterday and came up with nothing. Maybe you'll have better luck than everyone else.

579 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:52:56pm

re: #575 eric_odessit

Charles,
I agree with your mistrust of the Truthers. However, judging from what he admits to (being a Communist) and judging from his saying that the white environmentalists push pollution into the black neighborhoods (something I heard myself on TV), I would not surprise if in his case the Truthers are telling the truth, and he is lying.
But it does not matter: he should not be in the position he is in.
Eric.

Again, this argument employs fallacy to make it's point. See Guilt by Association and Argument from Authority for discussions on why arguments of this sort are fallacious and unanswerable.

580 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:58:12pm

I dont think anyone has proven he's a truther, or he signed it supporting it.

but what this whole thing has shown is he's a douchbag who has associated with douchbags.

anything that shines a light on them is a good thing.

cockroaches hate light.

581 twobru  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:59:32pm

Charles,

Thanks for the clarification. In rereading you original post after the clarification, I understand your position much better. I still think it's a stretch to say that Ace is lying because I think someone could read the original post and honestly misconstrue it as a defense of Jones on the Truther issue. But I can also see why you'd be upset at his post given his fixation on you.

Have a good weekend and holiday.

582 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:04:21pm

re: #580 rumcrook

I dont think anyone has proven he's a truther, or he signed it supporting it.

but what this whole thing has shown is he's a douchbag who has associated with douchbags.

anything that shines a light on them is a good thing.

cockroaches hate light.

A problem with this sort of hysterical, fiction-based criticism, however, is that it can serve to immunize the target against other criticisms that are actually valid. Once such an over-the-top accusation has been disproven, it's that much easier to dismiss future criticisms as the work of cranks and malcontents.

It's been pointed out throughout this thread that there are plenty of valid reasons, backed by actual evidence, to criticize Jones. There's no need to reach into the Troofer garbage pile.

583 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:08:26pm

re: #582 SixDegrees

Bingo

584 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:11:34pm

re: #582 SixDegrees

yes but what ive been trying to point out is that the troofer garbage pile isnt a separate garbage pile it is the same pile they are all anti american kooks who have a problem with thier country to the point that it and its system is the bad guy no matter what the situation.

all of the them are of the same pile just shouting different screeds about why america is the bad guy.

585 eric_odessit  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:11:50pm

re: #578 Charles

Charles, again, I am not disagreeing with you. The evidence you are looking for might not be there simply because Jones might not have done anything other than sign that petition. And in that case nobody will ever know whether he signed it knowing that it was a Truther petition. But again, I don't think it matters. If his signature on that petition helps to expose him on other issues and ultimately push him out, it is a good thing. In a way, it is similar to putting Al Capone in jail for tax evasion.
Eric.

586 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:12:44pm

re: #582 SixDegrees

and I get what your saying.

587 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:14:28pm

re: #561 HelloDare

Yes, I see your point. It is a very fine one.

Tapper, Google and the Rense search function link to the same webpage.

To be equally fine, check the dates on the webpage, Jan 8, 2002 at the top (the march), and Jan 03 at the bottom (organizing committee), separated by 5 days and 3 ‘#’. To be finer still, notice which came first.

The Truth about Truther Truthiness has been no secret since about 9/13/2001. In rereading the thread topic, it sounds like several people have “Signer’s Remorse”. But they all know how things work; as posted earlier, always read carefully before signing anything.

Jones has some shoe-scraping to do. He isn’t alone.

588 eric_odessit  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:15:39pm

re: #582 SixDegrees

You make a good point. But whether he is a Truther or not, the story started a conversation about what he is.
Eric.

589 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:17:39pm

re: #587 Arbalest

Yes, I see your point. It is a very fine one.

Tapper, Google and the Rense search function link to the same webpage.

To be equally fine, check the dates on the webpage, Jan 8, 2002 at the top (the march), and Jan 03 at the bottom (organizing committee), separated by 5 days and 3 ‘#’. To be finer still, notice which came first.

The Truth about Truther Truthiness has been no secret since about 9/13/2001. In rereading the thread topic, it sounds like several people have “Signer’s Remorse”. But they all know how things work; as posted earlier, always read carefully before signing anything.

Jones has some shoe-scraping to do. He isn’t alone.

It doesn't matter how carefully you read what you're signing if the group collecting the signatures pastes yours onto an entirely different document.

590 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:17:43pm

re: #588 eric_odessit

You make a good point. But whether he is a Truther or not, the story started a conversation about what he is.
Eric.

and what he is, is an anti american radical extremist who has risen to the whitehouse, thus saying alot about the hidden belief system of "the one"

591 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:19:43pm

re: #585 eric_odessit

In a way, it is similar to putting Al Capone in jail for tax evasion.

Comparing Mr. Jones to Al Capone is slanderous and absurd. It reveals much.

Regardless, you see Al was actually found guilty of Tax Evasion, faced a great deal of evidence and had his day in court. Van Jones on the other-hand is being lynched. This subtle difference is apparently hard to grasp for some.

592 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:21:38pm

For . The . Record

Just came in, for the first time today.

My up-ding for this thread is specifically (though not exclusively) for Charles' update:

UPDATE at 9/4/09 12:18:08 pm:
There’s no need to lie about my position, Ace. I am not “supporting” or “defending” Van Jones, and I’ve made that extremely clear. I’m defending the apparently out-of-fashion concept that accusations like this should be based on credible sources, and not Truther sites and hate sites.

We have what appear to be a bunch of irrational idiots out there who can't comprehend the concept of using effective (not to mention honest) tactics.

We are in a critical political conflict. If we're to have a chance of winning it, we can't afford to concoct and swill our own version of kool-aid.

593 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:22:08pm

re: #588 eric_odessit

You make a good point. But whether he is a Truther or not, the story started a conversation about what he is.
Eric.

I see. So the ends justify the means. Even if the means happen to include lying, fraud and character assassination.

Thanks, but I'm not interested in traveling down that road. It's the Low Road, and it's covered in slime.

There have been plenty of valid criticisms, with evidence backing them up, floating around about Jones for months. None of the present sound and fury contributed anything to that. It probably hindered it, in fact; see above on how such baseless accusations can often serve to immunize the accused from legitimate criticisms.

594 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:22:08pm

I sent Ace a link to that rense page that may be the source document. It clearly shows Van Jones signature below a document about starting a biweekly newspaper -- not below the call for a march to demand an inquiry into 9-11. Let's see what happens.

595 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:22:59pm

re: #589 SixDegrees

this guy didnt understand or lacked the judgment to see that the group asking him to sign has as an underlying mission to absolve the radical jihaadist scum who perpatrated 911 from responsiblity becuase they are just poor misunderstood third worlders incabable of the brainwork footwork intricate planning needed to perpatrate 911 and instead it was fellow americans who did this to other americans?

I think he knew what they were about

596 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:25:12pm

re: #595 rumcrook

this guy didnt understand or lacked the judgment to see that the group asking him to sign has as an underlying mission to absolve the radical jihaadist scum who perpatrated 911 from responsiblity becuase they are just poor misunderstood third worlders incabable of the brainwork footwork intricate planning needed to perpatrate 911 and instead it was fellow americans who did this to other americans?

I think he knew what they were about

Then provide some actual prove to back up your thoughts. Right now, all the evidence looks more and more untrustworthy by the moment.

This is a fruitless avenue to pursue. It's based on bullshit, and it hinders legitimate criticism of Jones and other Administration appointees.

597 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:26:55pm

re: #595 rumcrook

I think he knew what they were about

Are you a fully qualified mind reader then? What am I thinking now?

598 Ian MacGregor  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:27:55pm

So we have one group, the Truthers, who believes in a monster raving looney idea claiming that Van Jones, who may hold or may have held monster raving looney ideas of his own, as one who believes in the "Truth". Mr. Jones gainsays that notion.

If Mr. Jones really holds some of the opinions with which he has been credited, then it is not too much of a stretch to think of him as a Truther. It's not like the Pope declaring, 'There is no God!' The story has legs.

On the other hand if Mr. Jones can demonstrate in someway that he did not sign, or signed a different document, it could cripple his more reasoned opposition as there would be an effort to associate those critics with the Truther accusations.

Best course is to drop the whole Truther thing and have an honest debate on Mr. Jones policy objectives.

599 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:28:58pm

re: #598 Ian MacGregor

So we have one group, the Truthers, who believes in a monster raving looney idea claiming that Van Jones, who may hold or may have held monster raving looney ideas of his own, as one who believes in the "Truth". Mr. Jones gainsays that notion.

If Mr. Jones really holds some of the opinions with which he has been credited, then it is not too much of a stretch to think of him as a Truther. It's not like the Pope declaring, 'There is no God!' The story has legs.

On the other hand if Mr. Jones can demonstrate in someway that he did not sign, or signed a different document, it could cripple his more reasoned opposition as there would be an effort to associate those critics with the Truther accusations.

Best course is to drop the whole Truther thing and have an honest debate on Mr. Jones policy objectives.

I completely agree.

600 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:30:01pm

re: #596 SixDegrees

proof of what?

someone says to you hi im from truth.org we want an investigation into 911, you have probably heard about us, (van jones) oh yeah you guys dont think 911 was done by the jihaadis you and rosie odonnal think the government did it?

yup thats us, sign our petition?

sure!

what f***n bubble was this clown living in that he didnt recognize who they were instantly?

601 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:30:46pm

re: #597 Bagua

your thinking im a dick?

602 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:30:50pm

re: #599 SixDegrees

I completely agree.

Trying to speak reason to a pack of braying hounds is proving challenging.

603 Bagua  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:31:21pm

re: #601 rumcrook

Wrong. QED

604 Yankee Zionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:32:23pm

I was one of the people who thought Van Jones sig on the truther petition was legit. I was wrong and Charles was right.

And again, Charles is spot on Mumia Abu Jamal. The guy is a cop killer who changed his story numerous times after his conviction.

This Van Jones guy needs to go.

But you know what, going after this guy is insufficient for the GOP to win in 2010. If they don't fight him Obama on policy, he wins.

605 Mike Nargizian  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:37:02pm

Charles -

This issue and this comments section and the traffic and discussion re this topic is verrry interesting. I'm not sure where I stand though I respect immensely your position, I must say. The backbone you've shown on this is noteworthy.

It is a display in free speech and emotionalism. There is an assumption that the more people become informed on a topic over time they eventually EVOLVE... However, as the founders of this country somewhat cynically believed, that unfortunately is not usually the case.

Politicians as you noted in a comment are spineless etc... but going against birtherism for a republican can you get you booted from office as we've seen from a recent Rep. The founders of this country were always weary of the crowds/hordes/masses.

That is why you see the fringes, Buchanan, trutherism, conspiracy nuts, radical left etc... always able to gain traction over and over throughout history.

And that is why you see nuts like Beck generating heat and play to a base that generates ratings... if someone came on and said hey I'm not a fan of this guy and he may very well have sordove known what he was signing, though there is no proof of it, I can't sign on to this because there is no legitimate proof. Boring... people will tune off the channel.

Its possible that Van Jones knew what he was signing and wasn't misled. It's possible he's a radical lefty and just signed this impulsively one night in a fit of anti Bushism. After 9/11 many of us, me included were very angry about the response in the left and Muslim world, however, years alter while still feeling in a similar way look at the issue in a more rounded way.

Thus, I respect the fact that you don't particularly care for this guy, as I don't however don't jump on the bandwagon and relentlessly hold firm on not accrediting hate conspiracy sites and those that affirm them.

And btw, for the record I've been finding Malkin less credible these days as well.

606 bartok1001  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:37:28pm

This thread represents the big problem that exists for the Republican party. Instead of being the party that intellectually deconstructs the policies being proposed by the Dems and Obama's wonks, the Republicans leadership throws out ideas such as "Obamacare will lead to Death Panels" and "Obama is out to destroy the US because a Chinese flag is going to be flown at the White House" crap attack the Obama administration. In effect, this type of thread perpetuates this nonsense with our attacks on each other about Van Jones and his questionable involvement with the 911truth.org idiots.

It really does not matter in Van Jones signed or didn't sign a freaking petition (and yes I posted something previously showing his name on the petition). The reason I did that was to see if his name was associated with the 911.org group, that is it. How it got there, who the hell knows?

Honestly, it doesn't matter whether Van Jones is or is not a truther because that isn't his job in the Obama administration.

We should be talking about whether Van Jones is the best person to be acting in his Green Czar role, and whether his proposed policies make any sense. Likewise, the other people that Obama appoints should be questioned on whether their ideas for the roles that are tasked with make any sense. On this basis alone, you can probably show that many of the people in his administration are not the right people for the job because their ideas for their roles are ill advised. For example, with Van Jones, what makes him suitable to be Green Czar? Does he really know about alternative energy? Does he really have experience in implementing ideas that will help grow the US energy industry, or are his ideas nonsense?

What is currently lacking from many discussions anywhere is a proposal on how to solve the various problems facing the American people. The time spent arguing about whether Van Jones is a truther or not takes away time from discussing issues such as how to solve our debt problems, how to fix health care costs, how to improve education in this country, and whether or not our strategy in Afghanistan is working or not.

That is, we should be discussing solutions to our problems and calling out the B.S. in our government. We shouldn't be generating the B.S. that hurts our credibility.

607 Stickman  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:41:18pm

I believe there is a high probability that Jones was misled into signing the Truther document. So IMO he's not a Truther. Let's remove that argument from this discussion then. I feel that he still should resign based on the total of statements and his rhetoric that I've been able to see. Statements that have not been gleaned from any of the mentioned hate sites. No bias, no prejudice. I consider myself firmly anchored in the middle politically so I don't want anyone making decisions on my behalf that tilts heavily in either direction.

608 Waste93  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:44:39pm

Charles,

I have not been able to follow all the checking you did. If you checked good. You may also want to look for points of contact between known members of the 'truthers' and Van Jones if it hasn't already been done. Though it may seem this could be guilt by association people also tend to associate with like minded people especially when it comes to political organizations, volunteer groups, etc.

I see this is a bit of a catch 22 though. If he is he is likely to lie about being a member of the group. If he isn't then he would say the same thing.

Regardless I see this at most as another nail in the coffin so to speak. His other comments and admitted associations are more than enough that he should go. But then all the czars should go as they are an end run around the Constitution IMO.

609 Mike Nargizian  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:45:09pm

re: #435 Charles


Well, the Mumia issue has the advantage of being TRUE.
But if you don't care about that, knock yourself out.

LOL this cracked me up.

610 Mike Nargizian  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:50:10pm

re: #606 bartok1001

This thread represents the big problem that exists for the Republican party. Instead of being the party that intellectually deconstructs the policies being proposed by the Dems and Obama's wonks, the Republicans leadership throws out ideas such as "Obamacare will lead to Death Panels" and "Obama is out to destroy the US because a Chinese flag is going to be flown at the White House" crap attack the Obama administration. In effect, this type of thread perpetuates this nonsense with our attacks on each other about Van Jones and his questionable involvement with the 911truth.org idiots.


YOU ARE RIGHT AND WRONG.
What is going on now has been going on in human history for thousands of years. People always devolve and become base in periods of emotionalism which is why -
1) History repeats itself
2) The founders distrusted the masses
3) Why Democracy is fragile and delicate

This conversation is very interesting and while it's not a clearcut issue of his involvement, the conversatin regarding it and Health care shows how quickly things can devolve.

611 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:53:00pm

re: #589 SixDegrees

True. To my way of thinking, not signing at all, and avoiding such groups is the only solution, and demanding retractions when they transfer or forge signatures is the immediate following action.

If someone e-mails you about a fortune they can get, but need a bank account to transfer it to, do you e-mail your bank account number to them? Will you be surprised if bad things then happen to you?

Jones seems to have been on a Truther committee, about 4 months after 9/11. Did he not know . . .

We’re descending into trivialities. The big picture is that Jones chose, and now has some cleanup to do. It's all on him.

612 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 3:02:41pm
Zinn sent me a curt email in response to a question of whether he’d intended to suggest Bush’s complicity in the attacks: “I did not sign a statement suggesting that ‘Bush had prior knowledge.’ I signed a statement calling for an investigation.”

I have no doubt that many people were duped into signing Truther petitions, but even calling for an investigation as to what Bush knew prior to 9/11 is sheer kookery in my book.

613 rumcrook  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 3:04:05pm

re: #603 Bagua

hmm I guess I cant read minds... this is going to come as a huge blow to all my followers to whom I teach bending spoons with thier minds...

614 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 3:13:55pm
615 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 3:19:40pm

re: #614 Going_gone

Perfect name, because you are indeed now gone.

616 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 3:20:37pm

re: #611 Arbalest

Jones seems to have been on a Truther committee, about 4 months after 9/11. Did he not know . . .

Please show me a source for this claim that doesn't come from hate site rense.com.

617 Mike Nargizian  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 3:40:43pm

David Frum just on CNN Wolf Blitzer (fill in) with Corn and he said --

"Its sad that he would justify things that (nut) like Beck would say by putting someone like this in his administration"...
"It looks today that theres not 1 such signature but maybe two."
618 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 3:54:32pm

re: #616 Charles

Please show me a source for this claim that doesn't come from hate site rense.com.

I can’t. At present, this seems to be it.

The best I can do is to point out that while Rense, and Truthers in general, have no credibility, the document linked by Tapper does not seem to be a forgery. Jones' statements lend it some credibility.

From your links, Van Jones’ credibility isn’t particularly good. Additionally, Jones isn’t issuing direct denials. He’s doing a walk-around of some sort. Why?

If Jones were simply a local agitator, I wouldn’t particularly care. But he’s up for being a powerful government bureaucrat, with how much vetting? This administration seems to have had a real problem with selectees for office and vetting.

The Rense document may be Fruit of the Poisoned Tree, in legal terms, but that makes it inadmissible in court, not factually untrue. Circumstances suggest that the people and events involved need to be explained. Jones should have no trouble doing this; then the issue will disappear.

As I’ve posted previously, the document and Jones' statements / responses seem to be enough to require that Jones come clean.

619 I Need A Bigger Gun  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 4:26:43pm

The whole "truther" thing with Van Jones is a red herring, just as the "birther" controversy is a red herring as far as BHO is concerned. Neither are important in the big picture, and neither has any real evidence to support the claims being made. Van Jones has provided more than enough real reasons to be shitcanned.

620 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 5:31:02pm

re: #618 Arbalest

Please show me a source for this claim that doesn't come from hate site rense.com.

I can’t. At present, this seems to be it.

I know.

621 horse  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 5:37:12pm

This is another example of where the right is not right in behaving like the left, the ends never justify flawed means. Van Jones should never have been selected for his position based on his many inappropriate documented positions. Hyping an unknown or unlikely reason only helps to obscure the obvious ones.

622 AverageCdn  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 5:51:58pm

re: 621 horse

What he said.

I've always taken 3 of Rush Limbaugh's words to heart, even though many 'conservative' pundits don't, and most of the left certainly don't: Words mean things.

That's what I think separate us from the nuts. Knowing that what you say or do, even anonymously online, reflects on you as a person in your heart of hearts.

Keep up the fight Charles, God knows you're probably getting a bunch of heat for not jumping on the "anti-everything Obama" bandwagon, the intelligent design bandwagon (although possibly explains platypus - kidding), Bobby Jindal bandwagon, etc. etc.

623 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:19:55pm

This just might make him the first black person I've ever heard of who thought Mumia was innocent. It's usually just white college kids. Black folks figure he did it.

624 The False God  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:14:39pm

So, he just signed something without really checking into it, and his weaselly response was due to the fact that he didn't want people to think he was easily duped into signing crazy things.

Hopefully, he has learned from such an event and will not do the same thing in his current position.

625 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:17:45pm

OK Lizardim -

"Trooferism" - Bottom Line - represents SOFT BIGOTRY. It assumes that "Little Brown People" with names like "Muhammad", "Tariq", and "Hafez" are incapable of a quasi-military operation like 9/11/2001.
It further assumes that the only people capable of such an action are the US Government, or, better yet, "Da JOOOS."
Think again, "They" did it. Many of them celebrated it a a gift from or the will of "Allah."
Pray tell, how many Americans celebrated the bombing of Baghdad on 3/18/2003 by giving candy to the children of their neigbors. NONE that I know of.
I love the "Troofer" claim that fire cannot Melt Steel - troofus doofus, how in blazes do you think STEEL is made - and THAT is just a start.
Did we know by the 8/2001 PDB that AlQueda wanted to attack the US.
Sure we did - firstly, as they already had, in Africa and off the Coast of Yemen, Secondly, as to exactly when and where - NO!
So much for "Trooferism" - get with the program - little brown people who hate the US can accomplish a vast amount of Murder and Mayhem so long as we let our guard down. This is what worries me most about the Obama Administration, for whatever reason, they fall right into the trap.

-S-

626 thatemailname  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:12:59pm

Always interesting to see how people disavow their past once they're in the public eye.

Any reason that gets this insane clown out of a high-level post is a good one.

627 tsionguy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:13pm

re: #625 Dr. Shalit

OK Lizardim

Don't forget the Lizardot!

628 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:51:32pm
629 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:29:27pm

Good grief. This is getting plain stupid.

630 Ali Mentary  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 3:56:17am

re: #138 Dahveed

The nuts are running the asylum. Crazies on the left, crazies on the right and I feel like the reasonable ones are a becoming an ever shrinking minority.

Well, I hope this does not sound racist or something, but my best guess is that 50% of the people are less bright than the average.

And the fight to win their votes and hearts is best fought with the most appropriate weapon.

B.S., that is.

631 amrafel  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 9:04:04pm

At one time, I thought Rense was OK. Then I saw a rense video on youtube showing an Israeli soldier knocking down a Palestinian woman. The still camera picked up at the exact moment when he pushes her down, but conveniently didn't show what may have happened for the second or two before the push. Maddening.

632 TheAntichrist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:27:38pm

re: #11 MJ

Whatever Michael Lerner says, take it with lots of salt..

Indeed. And Zinn is full of shit also. He wrote a gushing blurb for Griffin's nutty 9/11 conspiracy book "The New Pearl Harbor", calling it "the most persuasive argument I have seen for further investigation on the Bush administration's relationship to that historic and troubling event".

No way can he claim he didn't know what that book was about. If he thinks that book is good for anything except lining bird cages he's a truther.

633 Lee Coller  Mon, Sep 7, 2009 5:33:53pm

I take a long relaxing weekend at Catalina Island and I miss my first hat tip.


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