Pawlenty Jumps Aboard the Nut Wagon

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Creationist Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty is joining the bizarre bandwagon of deluded people who think Barack Obama is going to mesmerize their children into becoming commie robots with a 20-minute speech on the first day of school: Pawlenty sides with critics.

Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty today gave his support to parents and schools wary about showing President Obama’s televised back-to-school address in classrooms next week.

Pawlenty said that showing the address, slated to be telecast at 11 a.m. Central Time on Tuesday, could be disruptive and raises concerns “about the content and the motive,” he said on WCCO radio early this morning. He also said that the speech is “uninvited.”

Some school officials and parents have questioned whether the Obama speech will be appropriately non-political. Minnesota’s two largest school districts are allowing teachers and administrators to decide whether to show the speech in their classrooms.

“At a minimum it’s disruptive, number two, it’s uninvited and number three, if people would like to hear his message they can, on a voluntary basis, go to YouTube or some other source and get it. I don’t think he needs to force it upon the nation’s school children,” Pawlenty said at the State Fair during a brief interview with members of the media.

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1108 comments
1 wiffersnapper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:35:56pm

Lord knows we don't want our children to succeed in school. Heaven forbid...

2 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:36:05pm

I suppose peopel are reacting to the hype rather than the topic. I presume Obama is simply going to tell the kids study hard, avoid drugs and bad behavior etc. But the educators themselves have thrown up expectations of bizarre Stalinest recruitment drive.

3 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:36:23pm

Franken, Bachmann, Ellison and Pawlenty.

We sotan's are SO screwed.

/facepalm

4 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:37:20pm

re: #3 esch

Ellison, Ventura, and Finegold

5 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:38:40pm

re: #4 pat

Ventura was almost worth it just to see that smug smirk wiped off of HHH3's face.

6 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:38:51pm

re: #2 pat

I suppose peopel are reacting to the hype rather than the topic. I presume Obama is simply going to tell the kids study hard, avoid drugs and bad behavior etc. But the educators themselves have thrown up expectations of bizarre Stalinest recruitment drive.

Please post a link to prove this assertion.

Because from my standpoint this looks like one of the most ridiculous fake outrage stories I've ever seen.

7 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:38:59pm

re: #3 esch

Franken, Bachmann, Ellison and Pawlenty.

We sotan's are SO screwed.

/facepalm

I blame it on all of the bars and liquor stores. They must have had several really bad stuff come to Mn.

8 John Neverbend  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:39:35pm

re: #5 esch

Ventura was almost worth it just to see that smug smirk wiped off of HHH3's face.

He was good in Predator, particularly when he had a large hole blown through his chest by the alien.

9 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:39:55pm

re: #7 Perplexed

I blame it on all of the bars and liquor stores. They must have had several really bad stuff come to Mn.

I think we just never really recovered from Fargo, yaknow.

10 zipity  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:39:57pm

Look Charles, I've been reading you since 9/11, and I agree with you 95% of the time, but I think you are off base here. Of course parents are freaked about this, Obama worked on the Annenberg Challenge with Bill "Boom-Boom" Ayers for gods sake, and appears to be running the complete playbook of the Alinsky Rules for Radicals. Why wouldn't they be concerned?

11 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:40:47pm

re: #10 zipity

We're doomed! He's going to hypnotize our children! The horror!

12 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:40:50pm

re: #9 esch

I think we just never really recovered from Fargo, yaknow.

Yep. I wonder how many miles of fence line were dug up after that movie?

13 zipity  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:41:33pm

Leave Fargo out of this...

Zipity
Fargo, ND

14 agarrett  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:41:34pm

re: #3 esch

What is a sotan? Looks like some sort of acronym, but I have no idea what it stands for.

As for the subject - ah, the whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. It'll blow over. President Obama (or whatever department put out the idiotic 'write a letter saying how you can support the President) has already backed off his dumb idea. There's residual overreaction left. The speech'll be typical blah, and it will all soon be forgotten. And thank goodness for that.

15 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:42:19pm

re: #11 Charles

Any chance we could get animated GIFs as eligible for avatar images? If so, I could put up a very neat variant of my avatar.

16 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:43:00pm

re: #14 agarrett

Minnesotan

17 zipity  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:43:16pm

Oh yes, I only come here for the avatars...

18 John Neverbend  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:44:11pm

re: #14 agarrett

What is a sotan? Looks like some sort of acronym, but I have no idea what it stands for.

In Talmudic Hebrew, a "sota" is an adulteress, so I suppose a sotan is a person who advocates female adultery...Either that or it's a resident of Minnesota.

19 garycooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:44:26pm

If Obama says something to inspire the kids to study hard, good. If he's pushing one of his political agendas, it's in very poor form. He has enough commercial broadcast time in the evenings for that.

20 SteveC  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:45:31pm

Law Enforcement, with the emphasis on ENFORCEMENT!

It was just too much, having to return to court twice on the same day to contest yet another traffic ticket, and Fire Chief Don Payne didn't hesitate to tell the judge what he thought of the police and their speed traps.

The response from cops? They shot him. Right there in court.

21 zipity  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:46:00pm

re: #19 garycooper

If Obama says something to inspire the kids to study hard, good. If he's pushing one of his political agendas, it's in very poor form. He has enough commercial broadcast time in the evenings for that.

Ha! and ain't nobody watching those. Repeats of Wipeout wipe them out..

22 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:46:10pm
I don’t think he needs to force it upon the nation’s school children,” Pawlenty said at the State Fair

What a paranoid psycho fundie dick.

Well, paranoid except about bridges.

23 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:46:12pm

re: #20 SteveC

Law Enforcement, with the emphasis on ENFORCEMENT!

Did you read some of the comments? Whew.

24 agarrett  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:46:13pm

re: #16 Perplexed

D'oh. That was about the last thing I would have guessed.

Is that a real nickname? I have never heard it before, but like it. My wife is from the Philippines, and they typically take nicknames from the end of the names too, but I'd never heard that in English. Fascinating stuff.

OK, it has nothing to do with the main topic, but it intrigues me.

25 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:46:36pm

re: #19 garycooper

If Obama says something to inspire the kids to study hard, good. If he's pushing one of his political agendas, it's in very poor form. He has enough commercial broadcast time in the evenings for that.

Not during 24 or FRINGE.

26 pink freud  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:46:46pm

This is an excellent teaching moment, an opportunity for parents to further critical thinking skills and get this into perspective for their children.

27 lostlakehiker  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:47:48pm

re: #6 Charles

Please post a link to prove this assertion.

Because from my standpoint this looks like one of the most ridiculous fake outrage stories I've ever seen.

Outrage isn't the right word for it, but this is disquieting. Why does a man who is, according to our current constitution, limited to two terms in office, need to win the loyalty of gradeschool children?

The initial version of the lesson plans for this thing included having children write letters to themselves vowing to do what they could to help the president. It included having teachers keep track of how well the student kept to that vow.

The inclination to ask for such pledges of loyalty is a bit creepy.

Pawlenty may be a creationist, but creationists can be good judges of character and they can have shrewd insight into what is afoot politically and culturally. Being a creationist disqualifies one from being taken seriously on topics that have a major scientific component. It's not a disqualification from being taken seriously on topics outside that realm.

28 garycooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:48:23pm

re: #20 SteveC

Law Enforcement, with the emphasis on ENFORCEMENT!

That's unreal. You wouldn't believe it, if it happened in a movie.

29 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:48:48pm

re: #27 lostlakehiker

I know. I'm very very scared for the nation's children.

/dripping

30 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:49:08pm

re: #19 garycooper

If Obama says something to inspire the kids to study hard, good. If he's pushing one of his political agendas, it's in very poor form. He has enough commercial broadcast time in the evenings for that.

Exactly.

31 Filala  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:49:13pm

I think the problem comes from the teachers guide that comes with the speech. Although it's be changed a bit, it still bothers me

Taken from this article:[Link: www.politico.com...]

.Part of the issue is that the Department of Education offered teachers classroom activities to go along with the president’s address. An early version of the lesson plan suggested that students write letters to themselves saying “what they can do to help the president.” That wording was changed to suggest students write letters laying out how they can “achieve their short-term and long-term educational goals.”

32 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:49:31pm

re: #31 Filala

I think the problem comes from the teachers guide that comes with the speech. Although it's be changed a bit, it still bothers me

Taken from this article:[Link: www.politico.com...]

.Part of the issue is that the Department of Education offered teachers classroom activities to go along with the president’s address. An early version of the lesson plan suggested that students write letters to themselves saying “what they can do to help the president.” That wording was changed to suggest students write letters laying out how they can “achieve their short-term and long-term educational goals.”

The HORROR!

33 garycooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:49:35pm

re: #21 zipity

Ha! and ain't nobody watching those. Repeats of Wipeout wipe them out..


I watch them. I'm masochistic like that.

34 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:50:18pm

re: #24 agarrett

D'oh. That was about the last thing I would have guessed.

Is that a real nickname? I have never heard it before, but like it. My wife is from the Philippines, and they typically take nicknames from the end of the names too, but I'd never heard that in English. Fascinating stuff.

OK, it has nothing to do with the main topic, but it intrigues me.

Try saying Minnesotan when you're really into the keg. 'Sotan is about how it comes out. Most Mn towns have at least one liquor store and at a minimum three bars (small towns) and take their drinking very seriously.

35 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:50:19pm
36 garycooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:51:11pm

re: #21 zipity

Ha! and ain't nobody watching those. Repeats of Wipeout wipe them out..

Wipeout was funny, the one time I watched it. It's just fun to watch people hurt themselves for some reason.

37 SteveC  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:51:43pm

Bullseye!

Beltre said a checkup with a specialist earlier in the day found he still has a tear in his testicle, the result of a wicked one-hopper off the bat of Chicago's Alexei Ramirez on Aug. 12. Swelling from a severe contusion is still there, too.

I'm cringing just thinking about it.

38 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:51:59pm

re: #36 garycooper

Wipeout was funny, the one time I watched it. It's just fun to watch people hurt themselves for some reason.

Darwin Awards.

39 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:52:08pm

This is probably the stupidest GOP position I've ever seen. Guaranteed to backfire, because Obama's speech will do nothing more than urge kids to stay in school and achieve their goals.

Socialism! Communism! Hypnotism!

40 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:52:09pm

re: #34 Perplexed

wzat?..yuhwesotangot'stickgetheryahknow

41 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:52:42pm

I have absolutely no problem with the President addressing the nations school children. As long as he sticks to the message of studying hard, staying off drugs, setting achievable goals etc., what is the harm in that. I would be a little more concerned if he were to unload with a political speech promoting his agenda but as far as I can tell, this is not the case. The conservatives in this country need to get a grip. Quite honestly, I don't know what planet most Republicans n the right are living on but I sure would like to know what the color if the sky is in their world.

42 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:53:27pm

re: #41 Jetpilot1101

The conservatives in this country need to get a grip.

Not gonna happen.

43 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:53:41pm

re: #40 esch

wzat?..yuhwesotangot'stickgetheryahknow

Just remember to not drink from a bottle that was left in the car overnight at -20F. That might just kill ya.

44 John Neverbend  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:54:08pm

re: #41 Jetpilot1101

I would be a little more concerned if he were to unload with a political speech promoting his agenda but as far as I can tell, this is not the case.

The link to Politico.com states that the text of the speech will be released on Monday, a day ahead of the actual delivery.

45 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:54:10pm

Who produced this video, posted at Michelle Malkin?

Link: [Link: michellemalkin.com...]

I see no credits, but the faces seem familiar. 3:02, 3:19 3:55 trouble me. Perhaps the video is only for adults.

46 SteveC  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:54:43pm

re: #39 Charles

This is probably the stupidest GOP position I've ever seen. Guaranteed to backfire, because Obama's speech will do nothing more than urge kids to stay in school and achieve their goals.

Socialism! Communism! Hypnotism!

My god, we might have some A's in Math!

47 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:54:46pm

re: #45 Arbalest

Who produced this video, posted at Michelle Malkin?

Link: [Link: michellemalkin.com...]

I see no credits, but the faces seem familiar. 3:02, 3:19 3:55 trouble me. Perhaps the video is only for adults.

Uh.

The video was produced by Ashton Kutcher.

48 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:54:56pm

re: #3 esch

Franken, Bachmann, Ellison and Pawlenty.

We sotan's are SO screwed.

/facepalm

I'm skeptical about Franken on many things but I was rather impressed with the way he handled himself with a mixed group of people including a lot of tea party activists in Minnesota. Apparently it started out with some of the folks being rather worked up.

Franken Talks Down Angry Mob

That's not my title of course.

49 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:55:00pm

re: #43 Perplexed

Just remember to not drink from a bottle that was left in the car overnight at -20F. That might just kill ya.

What I drink doesn't freeze.
*snort*

50 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:55:28pm

re: #41 Jetpilot1101

With how carefully this speech is going to be taken apart, they better scan it to make sure it doesn't have 'health', 'care', or 'option' in it.

The extreme right will look for any face saving out after all the foofaraw.

51 SteveC  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:56:00pm

re: #41 Jetpilot1101

Quite honestly, I don't know what planet most Republicans n the right are living on but I sure would like to know what the color if the sky is in their world.

It's kinda green over here!

Oh, no the Tornado sirens just went off...

52 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:56:20pm

re: #49 Cannadian Club Akbar

What I drink doesn't freeze.
*snort*

You're right, but at -20F it might freeze your windpipe shut.

53 garycooper  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:56:52pm

re: #38 Cannadian Club Akbar

Darwin Awards.

Same reason we watch the nature shows?

54 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:57:01pm

re: #52 Perplexed

You're right, but at -20F it might freeze your windpipe shut.

Not using my windpipe.

55 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:57:10pm

re: #43 Perplexed

Just remember to not drink from a bottle that was left in the car overnight at -20F. That might just kill ya.

WHAT!?

That's the temperature I like my Apfelkorn and Everclear at (well, mixed of course).

56 Arbalest  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:57:13pm

Ah. Apologies. My mistake. Carry on then.

57 reine.de.tout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:57:31pm

re: #31 Filala

I think the problem comes from the teachers guide that comes with the speech. Although it's be changed a bit, it still bothers me

Taken from this article:[Link: www.politico.com...]

.Part of the issue is that the Department of Education offered teachers classroom activities to go along with the president’s address. An early version of the lesson plan suggested that students write letters to themselves saying “what they can do to help the president.” That wording was changed to suggest students write letters laying out how they can “achieve their short-term and long-term educational goals.”

I thought this was a good change. That particular part of the lesson plan was bothersome to me; I thought the change was a good one.

You find it problematic that children would be asked to think about and write down their educational goals? I think this is very worthwhile.

58 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:58:01pm

Thought I read somewhere that they were tweaking the text of the speech due to criticisms? In the end, it probably won't have anything bad in there.

59 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:58:27pm

re: #58 TheMatrix31

Thought I read somewhere that they were tweaking the text of the speech due to criticisms? In the end, it probably won't have anything bad in there.

Yep, #31 shows one of the changes.

60 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:59:06pm

re: #2 pat

I suppose peopel are reacting to the hype rather than the topic. I presume Obama is simply going to tell the kids study hard, avoid drugs and bad behavior etc. But the educators themselves have thrown up expectations of bizarre Stalinest recruitment drive.

Stalinist? Stalin was responsible for the deaths of 20,000,000 people. Stalinism involved purges, assassinations, and deportations.

Quite a stretch there don't you think?

61 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:59:22pm

re: #58 TheMatrix31

Thought I read somewhere that they were tweaking the text of the speech due to criticisms? In the end, it probably won't have anything bad in there.

Wow, we really dodged a bullet, didn't we?

/reeking

62 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 6:59:24pm

re: #46 SteveC

My god, we might have some A's in Math!

My kids all have As in Math now. Science, too. The advanced classes.

Pep talks are fine, but they don't improve your math test scores.

63 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:00:21pm

re: #61 Charles

Wow, we really dodged a bullet, didn't we?

/reeking

lol

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:01:03pm

I posted this during the overnight thread this morning. Like to reprint, with some updates.


Hey, all.

During the discussion of the upcoming Obama Indoctrination of Youth Speech, I've heard repeated assumptions made to the effect that:

1. It will be mandatory.
2. It will take up a great deal of instructional time with partisan and indoctrinational activities.
3. All of us in education, agenda-driven hard-left types that we are, will worshipfully induct our fourth-graders into the Cult of Obama.

Of course, I work full-time in education, and I hadn't even heard of this thing until it came up here. So I experimented by going to an elementary teachers' board I sometimes read, and asking people what their plans were.

Five responders so far. I summarize:

1. The superintendent hasn't said yet whether they're watching it. If so, this teacher will let her co-teacher who does social studies handle it. She recalls that there is a lesson plan online somewhere. She doesn't plan to waste any time on the speech.

2. Angry comment about how a Catholic school (mine) should not be participating, due to Obama's record with abortion.

3. Was told the kids could watch if the teachers could find a standard related to the speech. This teacher 'has no desire' to have her kids watch, and won't look up a standard.

4. Teaches first grade, and the kids will be at lunch. Likes the idea, but would like to know what will be talked about in advance. Hopes her own children get to see it. If they don't see it at school, she will show it to them on the Web. Guesses it is controversial with 'the haters'.

5. Is behind with science standards, and the speech is during lunch. Plans to have the kids do a measuring exercises while they eat.

Obviously, this doesn't speak to whether the speech is a good idea or not, but I would like to introduce a note of realism into the somewhat fevered image of my profession I've heard here on occasion.


Since then, further on the thread:

--Someone asked for more info about Obama's stance on abortion.

--Someone said that her principal was planning to tape the speech, and they might screen it for the children later if the principal deemed it appropriate.

--A Catholic teacher commented that she thought it was a good thing, and that although she did not agree with Bush on many topics, she would never have ignored a speech aimed at her students that he made.

--Another teacher criticized people who bash Obama (without moonbat rhetoric), and stated that both Reagan and Bush addressed schoolchildren directly.

--Someone else's school decided it would be too disruptive to show on the first day of school, but they will taping it and putting it on their website for parents to view if they wish.

--A teacher plans to show it if she is in class at that time, and thinks people are making too much of what she characterizes as a public service announcement by the President. She links to the suggested activities.

--Another poster's principal says no. The students may get to see it later.

--Another teacher's school has opted to tape it, and if they decide it's appropriate, may show it as part of their 9/11 assembly. Their plan is for parents to preview it and let the school know if they don't want their child to see it.

--Yet another Obamabot indoctrinator says that the superintendent has decided not to show it live, and may be asking for permission slips or opt-out slips from parents for a later showing. The fourth-grade teacher at this school has announced that she already has lesson plans for the week, and will not have her class participate. The poster comments that she hopes that it will be 'without propaganda', in light of the intended audience.

--Another poster calls Obama an 'a$$', critiques his policies, and says that if the students want to see it, they can view it on the internet later--she plans to teach them stuff that will 'actually help them get a diploma'.

TBC...

65 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:01:10pm

re: #55 esch

WHAT!?

That's the temperature I like my Apfelkorn and Everclear at (well, mixed of course).

A couple guys at a VFW dance in SoDak were found dead from asphyxiation when their throat froze shut from drinking super cold booze (early 60s). Both were well lit from the booze.

66 SteveC  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:01:47pm

re: #62 OldLineTexan

My kids all have As in Math now. Science, too. The advanced classes.

More power to them, Texan. I never was good at my numbers, I'm a history geek.

67 John Neverbend  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:01:48pm

re: #60 Gus 802

Stalinist? Stalin was responsible for the deaths of 20,000,000 people. Stalinism involved purges, assassinations, and deportations.

Quite a stretch there don't you think?

Now that you mention it, what is a Stalinist recruitment drive? Was it something that Stalin actually did? Judging by the number of deaths he caused, he must have been recruiting for the after-life.

68 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:02:15pm

re: #10 zipity

Look Charles, I've been reading you since 9/11, and I agree with you 95% of the time, but I think you are off base here. Of course parents are freaked about this, Obama worked on the Annenberg Challenge with Bill "Boom-Boom" Ayers for gods sake, and appears to be running the complete playbook of the Alinsky Rules for Radicals. Why wouldn't they be concerned?

Oh for Fucks sake..What Parent would be terrified if the President of the United States inspired kids to study hard and achieve lofty Goals? Fuck...Talk to me Weds... If Obama tells the kids to vote for him or call their Congressman about Healthcare or Billy Ayers..Then we'll talk..People need to grow the heck up...

69 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:02:47pm

Watching this issue develop has been like watching an acquaintance stop taking his anti-psychotic meds and lose it in public.

70 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:03:21pm

re: #65 Perplexed

Wow. Good to know. But it looks like pretty good odds.

71 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:03:33pm

re: #65 Perplexed

A couple guys at a VFW dance in SoDak were found dead from asphyxiation when their throat froze shut from drinking super cold booze (early 60s). Both were well lit from the booze.

That's why I live in Florida.

72 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:04:02pm

re: #69 Charles

Watching this issue develop has been like watching an acquaintance stop taking his anti-psychotic meds and lose it in public.

You promised you wouldn't tell anyone!

/

73 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:04:19pm

I wonder how many of these parents who are "outraged" that President Obama will be speaking to their kids, let their kids watch MTV or some other drivel on a regular basis? I'd be more happy with my chirldren watching a president give a speech then the normal crap that is seved up daily on cable TV.

74 Filala  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:04:41pm

re: #32 Charles

re: #32 Charles

I just don't trust the President, everything he has done so far, the people who advise him, his domestic and foreign policy, the whole package just make me distrust him more. The school principal should be the one giving a welcoming speech.

75 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:04:50pm

re: #67 John Neverbend

Now that you mention it, what is a Stalinist recruitment drive? Was it something that Stalin actually did? Judging by the number of deaths he caused, he must have been recruiting for the after-life.

I don't know. Maybe it was something to the effect of "Come join us at the wonderful Gulag where you will be executed!"

A new twist on Godwin's law that could be called Godwin's Rule of Stalinist Analogies.

76 SteveC  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:05:15pm

re: #69 Charles

Watching this issue develop has been like watching an acquaintance stop taking his anti-psychotic meds and lose it in public.

I do not have a problem with multiple personalities!

Yes you do.

Be quiet! I'm talking!

77 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:05:26pm

Well, here's how it's playing out in the bitter, clingy portions of flyover country where we inbred hicks live, gumming gubmint peanut butter on stale soda crackers. Sounds to me like we're pretty rational folks, and you have to opt OUT if you want to panic:

Actual redacted e-mail follows:

September 3, 2009

Dear Xxxx ISD Parents:

You may be aware that President Barack Obama is scheduled to address the nation’s school children via the internet on September 8. According to the representatives with the White House, President Obama’s speech will address four main points:

The importance of staying in school.

The importance of education.

The importance of education to the country.

The importance of education to the future of the country.

The live internet broadcast is scheduled during our campus lunch periods, which makes it impossible to air to all students at that time. Therefore, Xxxx ISD will not be showing the live broadcast. However, we will capture the broadcast electronically for viewing by our district administrators. The speech will be analyzed for grade level appropriateness for viewing by students in social studies courses. If the speech is approved for viewing, teachers will have the opportunity to incorporate the speech into their future lesson plans. Parents will be notified before the speech is viewed in class and given an opportunity to complete an opt out form for their children.

We appreciate your understanding and support.

Sincerely,
Jxxx Xxxx
Superintendent of Schools

78 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:06:34pm
79 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:07:13pm

re: #69 Charles

Watching this issue develop has been like watching an acquaintance stop taking his anti-psychotic meds and lose it in public.

Now, if you could just invent an "anti-idoitarian" pill...
In addition to dear LGF!

80 Filala  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:08:32pm

re: #57 reine.de.tout

It was a good change, but only made because so many people objected to the original version.

81 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:08:35pm

re: #78 taxfreekiller

OT: TFK, enforcing the "drug war" is part of my job. I just returned from an assignment down south. We had 4 counter narcotics cases last week. I'm not saying it is cost effective but it sure gives me job satisfaction. Oh and there will be less drugs on the streets.

82 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:08:51pm

re: #73 Jetpilot1101

I wonder how many of these parents who are "outraged" that President Obama will be speaking to their kids, let their kids watch MTV or some other drivel on a regular basis? I'd be more happy with my chirldren watching a president give a speech then the normal crap that is seved up daily on cable TV.

Excellent point. I'm sure they would tell us that they don't allow their children to watch MTV or BET but reality tells us otherwise. Maybe it's like that Facebook spoof by the Onion. After school lets out the kids return to their more purist interests.

83 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:09:27pm

re: #79 Floral Giraffe

Now, if you could just invent an "anti-idoitarian" pill...

We could try putting Lithium in the drinking water.

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:10:02pm

More teacher reports:

--One teacher states that she believes that due to the overreaching policies of this administration, people may be a little wary of Obama addressing their children directly. She says that as a parent she would want to view this with her child, so they could talk it over. Urges respect for all points of view, not only those one agrees with.

--One teacher in a K-12 school district says all her district's students will be watching it at the same time. Parents have been given opt-out slips, and the children of parents who would prefer their children not see it will have an activity organized for them.

--Someone else's superintendent said no, possibly in response to a rumor that parents might be keeping children home.

--Someone else takes light exception to Obama being called an "a$$". Asks why parents and principals would be concerned that the President of the United States would say inappropriate things to children. Asks if they are afraid of a 'wardrobe malfunction'.

--And the last poster (at this hour) comments that Bush was severely criticized, and this kind of thing is all about which side you are on. Suggests Democrats feeling upset about this are hypocrites. She wishes her district was not showing it, since she feels the first graders will not understand much, and her time is so tightly budgeted that she resents anything that takes away the little time there is for students to have fun.

And so, American education marches on in fascist lockstep, telling students what to think, rather than teaching them to think.

///

85 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:10:04pm

re: #83 freetoken

It would be more fun to give them uppers, then watch them spin into orbit.

86 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:10:08pm

re: #83 freetoken

We could try putting Lithium in the drinking water.

I'm starting to think that might be a good idea.

87 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:11:11pm

It's an unnecessary fear and reacting more to their hatred of Obama than any rational fear. At the same time, saying that he is on some sort of "nut wagon".

I don't think it's wrong for the president to speak on education issues, you've just got to be careful about how you do it so you don't look like you are using the public school infrastructure for a political purpose

That doesn't sound like a guy who's nuts. There's plenty of actual crazies out there, no need to get crazy calling people crazy.

88 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:11:39pm

re: #66 SteveC

More power to them, Texan. I never was good at my numbers, I'm a history geek.

I love history; the kids, not as much. I'll get 'em.

89 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:12:04pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist


--Someone else takes light exception to Obama being called an "a$$". Asks why parents and principals would be concerned that the President of the United States would say inappropriate things to children. Asks if they are afraid of a 'wardrobe malfunction'.

ROTFL

90 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:12:14pm

re: #50 esch

With how carefully this speech is going to be taken apart, they better scan it to make sure it doesn't have 'health', 'care', or 'option' in it.

The extreme right will look for any face saving out after all the foofaraw.

If it's a totally unoffensive speech, some on the right will claim credit for killing the "Commie" speech just in time.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:12:34pm

re: #50 esch

With how carefully this speech is going to be taken apart, they better scan it to make sure it doesn't have 'health', 'care', or 'option' in it.

The extreme right will look for any face saving out after all the foofaraw.

I think that invariably, Obama will say something about 'helping your country', or 'helping one another', and that will be 'socialism', and that will be it for many crazy people.

92 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:13:06pm

Critics Decry Obama's 'Indoctrination' Plan for Students

A suggested lesson plan that calls on students to write letters to themselves about what they can do to help President Obama following his address to students nationwide is troubling and establishes the president as a "superintendent in chief," education experts told FOXNews.com.


Tommy Vietor, a White House spokesman, told FOXNews.com. "This isn't a policy speech. This is a speech designed to encourage kids to stay in school."

But in advance of the address, the Department of Education has offered educators "classroom activities" to coincide with Obama's message.

Students in grades pre-K-6, for example, are encouraged to "write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president. These would be collected and redistributed at an appropriate later date by the teacher to make students accountable to their goals."

Teachers are also given guidance to tell students to "build background knowledge about the president of the United States by reading books about presidents and Barack Obama."

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

this is what politicians seem to be reacting to, not the benign message I anticipate

93 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:13:13pm

re: #74 Filala

re: #32 Charles

I just don't trust the President, everything he has done so far, the people who advise him, his domestic and foreign policy, the whole package just make me distrust him more. The school principal should be the one giving a welcoming speech.

Guess what? Half this country doesn't like the POTUS policy's foreign or domestic...We get it...I figure he is at least qualified to talk to first graders about studying hard...
About right for his paygrade..What is the problem? My Kid was ruined by the President of the United States? please...

94 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:13:16pm

re: #83 freetoken

We could try putting Lithium in the drinking water.

I'm going to have to look that up.
(Not medically educated)

95 calcajun  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:13:25pm

re: #86 Charles

I'm starting to think that might be a good idea.

Nah. Thorazine and Viagra.

96 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:13:35pm

re: #87 cliffster

It's an unnecessary fear and reacting more to their hatred of Obama than any rational fear. At the same time, saying that he is on some sort of "nut wagon".

That doesn't sound like a guy who's nuts. There's plenty of actual crazies out there, no need to get crazy calling people crazy.

If you sign on to this insane nonsense, that's all I need to put you in the category of "nuts."

97 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:14:55pm

re: #81 Jetpilot1101

OT: TFK, enforcing the "drug war" is part of my job. I just returned from an assignment down south. We had 4 counter narcotics cases last week. I'm not saying it is cost effective but it sure gives me job satisfaction. Oh and there will be less drugs on the streets.

God bless you. I have been seeing the side effects of the new drug culture, lately.

98 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:14:56pm

re: #91 SanFranciscoZionist

Bingo. Mostly, because the POTUS shouldn't say things like, "Don't get knocked up. Stay in school. Get an education and amount to something. Stop being self-absorbed twits with muffin tops hanging over you two-sizes-too-small jeans, and learn to spell beyond texting."

That's why I wasn't tapped to write his speech.

99 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:15:35pm

I took 2 Advil the other day for a pulled muscle, the first drug in 2 years, so I'm good.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:15:37pm

re: #92 pat

Critics Decry Obama's 'Indoctrination' Plan for Students


[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

this is what politicians seem to be reacting to, not the benign message I anticipate

I recall that we read lots of books about U.S. presidents when I was in school. I had to do a report on Andrew Johnson. It was boring as hell.

101 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:15:48pm

Obama's gonna eat their lil' pinkies!

102 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:16:58pm

re: #101 Killgore Trout

Wasn't it Ted Turner who predicted that Homo Sapiens would turn to cannibalism as resources became scarce?

103 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:16:58pm

How stupid do people think Obama is anyhow ? He's not.
Hey, you kids, F*** authority !
It's anarchy !
Gettin' all wee weed up and not even knowing what he's going to say.

I think I can handle this speech with mini me just fine.

104 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:17:09pm

re: #96 Charles

If you sign on to this insane nonsense, that's all I need to put you in the category of "nuts."

When you start calling anybody and everybody "nuts", the word "nuts" starts losing it's impact.

105 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:17:55pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

I did not say I agree with the assessment. As usual this tone deaf WH, actually the DOE, blew it with their need for Obama to be worshiped rather than just be President Obama.

106 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:18:10pm

re: #102 freetoken

Wasn't it Ted Turner who predicted that Homo Sapiens would turn to cannibalism as resources became scarce?

Worse, he gave a billion to the U.N.!!!

107 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:18:21pm

Conservatives teaching their children some valuable lessons...
State Board won't censor Obama talk to students

Some State Board of Education members say they can't be swayed into calling for censorship of President Barack Obama's live broadcast to school children Tuesday.

"I don't think Utah schools should be bullied or blackmailed or intimidated into watering down facts or truths just because a partisan group doesn't agree with them," said board member Leslie Castle, Salt Lake City.

108 SteveC  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:18:45pm

re: #83 freetoken

We could try putting Lithium in the drinking water.

Lithium Carbon Monofluoride (Li/CFx) makes for a better pacemaker battery!

109 mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:18:50pm
Tim Pawlenty is joining the bizarre bandwagon of deluded people who think Barack Obama is going to mesmerize their children into becoming commie robots with a 20-minute speech on the first day of school:

I don't want any politics in my kids classroom just like I don't want any religion in it. My objection to Obama's little pep talk is that its a waste of time.

No its got nothing to do with me being delusional about how Obama is going to mesmerize my children.

110 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:19:01pm

re: #97 OldLineTexan

God bless you. I have been seeing the side effects of the new drug culture, lately.

Nothing beats a good takedown. The front lines are a tough place to be sometimes especially when a lot of the authorities from other countries are crooked. We all do what we can and like I said, regardless of whether you think the drug war should continue or cease, there are those of us who are more then thrilled to take out a few bad guys. Let me tell you this, seeing the DEA in action is a beautiful thing.

111 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:19:31pm

re: #103 SasquatchOnSteroids

How stupid do people think Obama is anyhow ? He's not.
Hey, you kids, F*** authority !
It's anarchy !
Gettin' all wee weed up and not even knowing what he's going to say.

I think I can handle this speech with mini me just fine.

They're just wee wee'd that Obama is president. And not seeming to see how small it makes them see to act like that.

112 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:19:52pm

re: #98 theheat

Bingo. Mostly, because the POTUS shouldn't say things like, "Don't get knocked up. Stay in school. Get an education and amount to something. Stop being self-absorbed twits with muffin tops hanging over you two-sizes-too-small jeans, and learn to spell beyond texting."

That's why I wasn't tapped to write his speech.

Well, when the POTUS said "Just Say No", a bunch of people went nuts.

My theory is that Richard Nixon's sins ruined the respect for the POTUS that was built up slowly in this country and reached its modern form in Eisenhower. It was a short run. Every POTUS since then has been a running target for the media ... it has sunk in to the culture. The left celebrated it under Reagan and W, and the right had Clinton and now Obama.

113 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:20:04pm

I'm sure as a child I would rather hear the President than do sentence diagramming or the dreaded spelling. Even if was Carter.

114 Linden Arden  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:20:36pm

Occam suspects that many of the parents who object to this speech simply fear that the students may actually like Obama after hearing him address them directly.

Likewise, my neighbor won't let his kid watch 'The Simpsons' although one episode would harm no one. They would rather not take a chance.

115 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:20:45pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

I recall that we read lots of books about U.S. presidents when I was in school. I had to do a report on Andrew Johnson. It was boring as hell.

Could you imagine politicizing the schools? Let's see, there was that one time we had a letter from President Nixon that he wrote to our class in answer to a letter I had written. It was the focus of a lot of attention. Then there's history class, civics, the flag, the Pledge of Allegiance, and so on. There was also UNICEF drives from time to time from the evul UN!

I know, some will say, "well that's different." At this rate we're looking at an amendment similar to the Establishment Clause only this one will be regarding the separation of politics and state. Confusing.

116 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:21:48pm

re: #111 cliffster

They're just wee wee'd that Obama is president. And not seeming to see how small it makes them see to act like that.

Do you have any kids in the classrooms?

117 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:22:52pm

re: #114 Linden Arden

Occam suspects that many of the parents who object to this speech simply fear that the students may actually like Obama after hearing him address them directly.

That's very true. The reason why a lot of us didn't want Obama to win is because if he did, he'd get to do stuff like this. Well, guess what, he won, and he gets to do stuff like this. If one doesn't like it, one should convince people to vote differently next time, and acting like low-class sore losers is not a good way to convince people.

118 borgcube  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:22:53pm

Dear Fellow Lizards,

We have a new account name here. mfarmer1 has been assimilated into the collective.

Regards,
Borgcube

119 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:23:04pm

re: #115 Gus 802

Could you imagine politicizing the schools? Let's see, there was that one time we had a letter from President Nixon that he wrote to our class in answer to a letter I had written. It was the focus of a lot of attention. Then there's history class, civics, the flag, the Pledge of Allegiance, and so on. There was also UNICEF drives from time to time from the evul UN!

I know, some will say, "well that's different." At this rate we're looking at an amendment similar to the Establishment Clause only this one will be regarding the separation of politics and state. Confusing.

Did Nixon's WH issue any lesson plans with his speeches? Or GHW Bush? I asked avanti last thread, but he declined to answer.

120 brumor  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:23:37pm

If I still had kids of school age, they would be absent that day!

121 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:23:45pm
122 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:23:46pm

Pushing back works.

123 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:23:50pm

re: #26 pink freud

This is an excellent teaching moment, an opportunity for parents to further critical thinking skills and get this into perspective for their children.

Just so.

124 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:24:03pm

OT: what's the over/under on how long it takes Beck to get yanked from FOX News?

My guess is 9 months.

125 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:24:19pm

re: #119 OldLineTexan

Did Nixon's WH issue any lesson plans with his speeches? Or GHW Bush? I asked avanti last thread, but he declined to answer.

No. In answer to that I would say that the "lesson plan" could have been omitted in this case. That would have been a good compromise if one were to propose it that way.

126 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:24:26pm

re: #119 OldLineTexan

Did Nixon's WH issue any lesson plans with his speeches? Or GHW Bush? I asked avanti last thread, but he declined to answer.

Oh my God! You mean -- they're giving them lesson plans too?!?

We really are doomed.

127 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:24:26pm

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. If it gets any worse here in Minnesota, I'm going to end up running for office.

I have no frickin' problem with Obama addressing America's schoolchildren on the first day. I think it's f*cking fabulous. I think every President should do this henceforth. It's the only thing Obama's got right so far. What a great message to American children to have the President talk to them, encourage them to do as best they can, and get as much education as they can. Frankly, this idea is beautiful.

But you know a douchebag like him is going to f*ck it up and make it political.

If he doesn't, some other douchebag will.

128 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:24:37pm

re: #69 Charles

Watching this issue develop has been like watching an acquaintance stop taking his anti-psychotic meds and lose it in public.

So would that make the following the theme music to this story:

129 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:24:40pm

re: #90 avanti

If it's a totally unoffensive speech, some on the right will claim credit for killing the "Commie" speech just in time.

learn from the rahm
be the rahm

130 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:24:53pm

Honestly, I'm flabbergasted at this issue. These people are so insecure in their parenting skills that they think the president of the USA is going to brainwash their kids with a 20 minute speech, and Republicans are going off the rails about it?

This is the kind of reaction I would expect if the Pope, or Richard Dawkins, wanted to give a speech to all the little ants in madrassas in Pakistan.

//or to some people closer to home.

There is something rotten in our civic sensibilities, I fear.

131 Gella  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:25:07pm

TGIF lizards :)

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:25:25pm

re: #119 OldLineTexan

Did Nixon's WH issue any lesson plans with his speeches? Or GHW Bush? I asked avanti last thread, but he declined to answer.

Why does the lesson plan, which is really more a list of suggested possible activities, seem to freak people out more than anything else?

133 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:25:45pm

re: #116 OldLineTexan

Do you have any kids in the classrooms?

My #117 came right after yours. I have one that is just shy of the classroom, but yeah it bothers me. It irks me to see him having the position he has while they're growing up, because yes he gets instant respect and therefore his positions get instant respect. He is, however, the president, so I just have to live with it and try harder to get my person in next time.

134 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:25:59pm

re: #126 Charles

Oh my God! You mean -- they're giving them lesson plans too?!?

We really are doomed.

Did I imply anything sinister by asking the question?

135 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:26:12pm

Hello honkies and children.
I know on the first day of school, everyone is excited.
I'll bet all of you did not get much sleep last night wondering about what new experiences will be awaiting you on the first day of school. No doubt every one is sleepy. Very sleepy. You are getting sleepier and sleepier. You are tired and your eyes are red. You are getting redder and redder. ...You know, socialism is not such a bad thing. Sweden is socialistic; everybody likes them. Wouldn't it be nice to have everything provided by the government? You would have no worries. That would be nice. In a minute, I will have finished this speech, and you will be amazed at what an excellent speech it was, and you will once again be fully awake; but first let's talk about democrats and republicans and those green pictures with presidents on them. Later this week, I want you to find an envelope and write: "bocashslushfund...all one word...
...
...

136 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:26:26pm

re: #104 cliffster

When you start calling anybody and everybody "nuts", the word "nuts" starts losing it's impact.

Never mind that it's not "everybody", but what do you call it?

137 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:26:29pm

re: #119 OldLineTexan

Did Nixon's WH issue any lesson plans with his speeches? Or GHW Bush? I asked avanti last thread, but he declined to answer.

But I could add that the older students are free to respond to the lesson plans in opposition. Even the younger ones. There's nothing that says they have to respond in the affirmative.

138 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:26:42pm

re: #127 Noam Sayin'

If he doesn't, some other douchebag will.

'fraid so. Still, I don't think it's a bad idea at all. I wouldn't have cared if Bush did it, Obama, whoever. Kids these days need a big shot in the arm. If it comes from the POTUS, and it helps, more power to them.

139 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:26:42pm

re: #113 pat

I'm sure as a child I would rather hear the President than do sentence diagramming or the dreaded spelling. Even if was Carter.

I'm pretty sure the nuns hated me...Word was Sister Mary Roberts laid in bed at night and dreamed about a horrible wine cellar accident with me almost making it out...only to reach a tragic ending at the Church door step...
/

140 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:27:13pm

re: #120 brumor

GAZE

141 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:27:26pm

re: #131 Gella

Cheers!

142 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:27:29pm

re: #138 theheat

'fraid so. Still, I don't think it's a bad idea at all. I wouldn't have cared if Bush did it, Obama, whoever. Kids these days need a big shot in the arm. If it comes from the POTUS, and it helps, more power to them.

Traitor! RINO! Why do you hate America?

143 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:27:38pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

Why does the lesson plan, which is really more a list of suggested possible activities, seem to freak people out more than anything else?

It was a question, NOT a "freak out".

Great day in the morning, should I just not give a damn about anything my three school-age children study? So creationism would be OK now, after all, it's just a "lesson plan"?

144 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:27:57pm

BTW, I sent this article to a very conservative friend of mine earlier in the week, and he thought it was a good idea, too - as long as he didn't make it political. Actually, he was kind of envious.

And so am I.

145 mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:28:00pm

re: #117 cliffster

Well, guess what, he won, and he gets to do stuff like this.

You learned that in kindergarten didn't you.

146 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:28:17pm

OT: Pan seared tuna with tarragon = yum
/Tarragon is a very underrated herb.

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:28:24pm

re: #121 taxfreekiller

If Obama did care about the kids in the schools he would shut the Mexican border down and slow to a crawl the drug trade, make it as
hard as possible to cross the border with drugs that are in fact
the main cause for violence in his home town of Chicago, in his own area of the town. It is a nation wide evil and he with ease could do something about it...

But rather than take action against the evil,... he talks.

What prevented the Bush administration from doing this simple thing? Were they also indifferent to America's children? I mean, Bush seemed to like kids and take an interest in education, but maybe I misunderstood.

148 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:28:40pm

re: #142 Charles

Traitor! RINO! Why do you hate America?

You gotta have hobbies...

149 pink freud  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:29:04pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

Why does the lesson plan, which is really more a list of suggested possible activities, seem to freak people out more than anything else?

That's where the messages of social justice and collectivism come in. Doesn't belong in the schools.

150 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:29:05pm
151 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:29:31pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

/Tarragon is a very underrated herb.

What does it take like?

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:29:35pm

re: #137 Gus 802

But I could add that the older students are free to respond to the lesson plans in opposition. Even the younger ones. There's nothing that says they have to respond in the affirmative.

And, depending on various factors, many will.

153 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:29:37pm

re: #137 Gus 802

But I could add that the older students are free to respond to the lesson plans in opposition. Even the younger ones. There's nothing that says they have to respond in the affirmative.

IT WAS A QUESTION.

THERE WAS NO POSITION STATED OR IMPLIED.

154 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:29:48pm

re: #136 Naso Tang

Never mind that it's not "everybody", but what do you call it?

It's very fashionable to call people "loons" and "kooks". Disagreeing with you does not make someone a kook, and happening to agree with someone who actually deserves the label also doesn't make you a kook. The kneejerk reaction to label people like that marginalizes any real discussion.

155 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:29:57pm

If it isn't clear enough yet, I have absolutely no respect for this craziness, and I intend to mock it like a red-headed stepchild.

The GOP should be utterly ashamed. They're promoting a sick divisive view of America, and they have no compunctions about using children to do it.

156 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:30:15pm

re: #153 OldLineTexan

IT WAS A QUESTION.

THERE WAS NO POSITION STATED OR IMPLIED.

I know OLT. I was just responding. Coming up with some ideas.

157 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:30:16pm

re: #139 HoosierHoops

I'm pretty sure the nuns hated me...Word was Sister Mary Roberts laid in bed at night and dreamed about a horrible wine cellar accident with me almost making it out...only to reach a tragic ending at the Church door step...
/

Wine cellar accident? You name wouldn't happen to be Fortunado, would it?

/

158 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:30:18pm

re: #119 OldLineTexan

Did Nixon's WH issue any lesson plans with his speeches? Or GHW Bush? I asked avanti last thread, but he declined to answer.

I did because I thing the issue is silly, but if you insist.I don't know if they did or not, but I think it's a good idea. If you get the kids attention, maybe even inspire a few, why not have those that want to, put their thoughts on paper to keep them engaged.

159 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:30:24pm

re: #151 Noam Sayin'

What does it take like?

Tarragon?

160 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:30:37pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Isn't that the one that tastes kind of like rosemary, or is it curry that tastes like tarragon? I thought I knew what it tasted like, but it's been awhile.

161 transient  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:31:01pm

re: #39 Charles

Socialism! Communism! Hypnotism!

So, Charles, is your position that Obama is an esotericist?

162 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:31:08pm

re: #159 Cannadian Club Akbar

Tarragon?

Oh.

163 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:31:12pm

re: #149 pink freud

That's where the messages of social justice and collectivism come in. Doesn't belong in the schools.

My God ... how dare you have an opinion on the schools? Quit freaking out!

/

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:31:50pm

re: #143 OldLineTexan

It was a question, NOT a "freak out".

Great day in the morning, should I just not give a damn about anything my three school-age children study? So creationism would be OK now, after all, it's just a "lesson plan"?

No one seems to have identified anything that troubles them about the lesson plan, except the 'helping the president' thing, which has apparently been revised. I repeat. What's the matter with the suggested activities doc? Not closed to the idea that something is the matter with it, just baffled as to why its mere existence seems to worry people.

165 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:31:54pm

re: #155 Charles

If it isn't clear enough yet, I have absolutely no respect for this craziness, and I intend to mock it like a red-headed stepchild.

The GOP should be utterly ashamed. They're promoting a sick divisive view of America, and they're not above using children to do it.

Must concur. I'm worried about some of my friends. They're liable to buy into this load of crap. Any ideas on how to talk people down off the crazy tree?

166 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:32:14pm

No lesson plan, no test=kids blowing off the speech and burning one in the john, or texting the cheat to the next level of the new video game: "Hannah Montana at the Strip-o-rama/ level 5/ shotguns and rabid chipmonks.

167 calcajun  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:32:34pm

re: #151 Noam Sayin'

chicken

168 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:32:44pm
169 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:32:54pm

re: #156 Gus 802

Gus, there were three mocking responses to a simple question. I have absolutely NO record of "freaking out" over this issue on this blog ... or anywhere else.

I am sorry for "shouting" at you.

170 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:32:58pm

Could we as conservatives please start opposing President Obama on real issues like his fiscal irresponsibility as opposed to freaking out over a 20 minute speech that in all likelyhood will benefit America's children. There are so many issues that conseratives could push back against Obama on but instead the leadership chooses to latch on to half baked conspiracy theories. I really wish someone would come forward on the right with the balls to stand up and denounce these freakouts for what they are. Is there anyone out there?

171 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:33:04pm

re: #151 Noam Sayin'

What does it take like?

When raw it tastes like licorice but when cooked it takes on a nutty flavor. Very nice.

172 transient  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:33:06pm

re: #126 Charles

Oh my God! You mean -- they're giving them lesson plans too?!?

It's part of the Obama Big Government socialist agenda. People will expect all kinds of free government handouts, including lesson plans.

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:33:29pm

re: #149 pink freud

That's where the messages of social justice and collectivism come in. Doesn't belong in the schools.

Well, I'm at a Catholic school, so social justice actually on the curriculum...

What suggested activities bother you?

174 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:33:46pm

re: #154 cliffster

It's very fashionable to call people "loons" and "kooks". Disagreeing with you does not make someone a kook, and happening to agree with someone who actually deserves the label also doesn't make you a kook. The kneejerk reaction to label people like that marginalizes any real discussion.

Why do you just repeat what you said the first time. Do you think I didn't understand?

I think people whop are so afraid of having their kid listen to the President talk about education that they freak out the way I am seeing on TV, are NUTS!

Are you nuts too?

175 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:33:53pm

re: #169 OldLineTexan

Gus, there were three mocking responses to a simple question. I have absolutely NO record of "freaking out" over this issue on this blog ... or anywhere else.

I am sorry for "shouting" at you.

Understood.

176 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:34:15pm

re: #172 transient

It's part of the Obama Big Government socialist agenda. People will expect all kinds of free government handouts, including lesson plans.

I just checked my mailbox... no lesson plan. This is bulls***

177 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:34:25pm

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

No one seems to have identified anything that troubles them about the lesson plan, except the 'helping the president' thing, which has apparently been revised. I repeat. What's the matter with the suggested activities doc? Not closed to the idea that something is the matter with it, just baffled as to why its mere existence seems to worry people.

I repeat, I did not suggest there was anything WRONG with it.

I asked a QUESTION.

If it were up to me as a teacher, I would show the speech and hand out the doc as an extra. The lesson plans for the year are already in place.

178 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:34:53pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

Must concur. I'm worried about some of my friends. They're liable to buy into this load of crap. Any ideas on how to talk people down off the crazy tree?

Maybe have them listen to the speech and try to imagine it's not Obama, but some anonymous educator giving it, and share their impressions of the content.

179 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:35:25pm

re: #177 OldLineTexan

I repeat, I did not suggest there was anything WRONG with it.

I asked a QUESTION.

If it were up to me as a teacher, I would show the speech and hand out the doc as an extra. The lesson plans for the year are already in place.

I'd give them a quiz worth 10% of their grade just to make sure they were paying attention.

180 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:35:54pm

Look closely at the language of the "suggested" lesson plan.

181 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:36:27pm

re: #174 Naso Tang

Why do you just repeat what you said the first time. Do you think I didn't understand?

I think people whop are so afraid of having their kid listen to the President talk about education that they freak out the way I am seeing on TV, are NUTS!

Are you nuts too?

No, they're not nuts, they're just bitter. And they look like immature schoolchildren when they act like this.

182 transient  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:36:34pm

re: #176 cliffster

I just checked my mailbox... no lesson plan. This is bulls***

My lesson plan must have been lost along with my dividend check from the Elders of Zion.

183 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:36:38pm

re: #149 pink freud

It depends on what's aid. Actually, I see kids so self-absorbed and disinterested these days, if they got off their butts and cleaned a park, or did some kind of thing to help people other than their immediate friends, I don't think that's a bad idea. It follows the thinking of helping "the little old lady cross the street". It's simply politeness and courtesy, and maybe a little selflessness.

Is that socialistic, or just good manners? When I grew up, it was good manners. I didn't know my lifelong Republican parents were closet socialists. Ack!

184 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:36:42pm

re: #180 gulfloafer

Look closely at the language of the "suggested" lesson plan.

It's COMMUNISM! Lock up your children!

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:36:43pm

re: #176 cliffster

I just checked my mailbox... no lesson plan. This is bulls***

Interwebs. They're on the interwebs. So many free lesson plans...

Actually, there are. I have no idea how anyone taught before the Internet.

186 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:37:13pm

re: #169 OldLineTexan

Gus, there were three mocking responses to a simple question. I have absolutely NO record of "freaking out" over this issue on this blog ... or anywhere else.

I am sorry for "shouting" at you.

For what it's worth, I'm sorry I did not answer you the first time, but to be honest, the issue confuses me. Your question was however reasonable, and I did not take it as freaking out.

187 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:37:41pm

re: #184 Charles

It's COMMUNISM! Lock up your children!

If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do?

//

188 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:37:50pm

re: #183 theheat

PIMF not what's 'aid', but what's 'said'.

189 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:37:57pm

re: #138 theheat

I believe Bush did do it

190 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:38:14pm

re: #180 gulfloafer

Look closely at the language of the "suggested" lesson plan.


Looks like English to me.

/heck, it isn't even in Ebonics...

191 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:38:50pm

re: #184 Charles

Thanks. I already did./

192 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:39:16pm

re: #185 SanFranciscoZionist

Interwebs. They're on the interwebs. So many free lesson plans...

Actually, there are. I have no idea how anyone taught before the Internet.

By using LAST year's lesson plan.

/that's a real answer from a REAL teacher, too ... I just happened to be on the phone right now with my mother and asked her, just for you ;)
/7th grade math

193 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:39:18pm
194 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:39:38pm

re: #186 avanti

OT: Chief, we may disagree on a lot of issues but I respect the hell out of you. Men and women of your paygrade have taught me more then 100 years at the factory could. Thank you for your service and thank you for always being a mentor to people like me.

195 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:40:02pm

re: #186 avanti

As long as I get my Studebaker calendars, we will always be friends.

/

196 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:40:51pm

re: #178 avanti

Maybe have them listen to the speech and try to imagine it's not Obama, but some anonymous educator giving it, and share their impressions of the content.

That will probably work. Thank you for the advice, avanti. I really, really, hate this story. People are letting their distrust of Obama lead them to take insane positions. The toxic level of Bad Craziness is very depressing.

197 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:40:56pm

re: #130 Naso Tang

Honestly, I'm flabbergasted at this issue. These people are so insecure in their parenting skills that they think the president of the USA is going to brainwash their kids with a 20 minute speech, and Republicans are going off the rails about it?

This is the kind of reaction I would expect if the Pope, or Richard Dawkins, wanted to give a speech to all the little ants in madrassas in Pakistan.
//or to some people closer to home.

There is something rotten in our civic sensibilities, I fear.

No head-chopping?

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:41:15pm

re: #192 OldLineTexan

By using LAST year's lesson plan.

/that's a real answer from a REAL teacher, too ... I just happened to be on the phone right now with my mother and asked her, just for you ;)
/7th grade math

Thank you, and thank her.

But truly, I love being able to swap ideas and materials with people all over the world. It's major cool.

199 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:41:16pm

re: #190 freetoken

re: #190 freetoken

Ok. You down-dinged me. So what WILL the hyno-speech be?
I mean, you ARE going to give it.

200 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:41:25pm

re: #181 cliffster

No, they're not nuts, they're just bitter. And they look like immature schoolchildren when they act like this.

OK, so we are on the same page on the fundamentals, but with all due respect to your preferred usage of language, adults, and politicians in particular, who act like immature schoolchildren are fools if not nuts.

201 kilroy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:41:56pm

Will the Republicans get a chance to respond to O's comments as in the State of the Union or the weekly address. I think that would be appropriate.

202 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:42:06pm

re: #189 pat

I don't remember if he did or didn't. But if he did, that's great. I know Laura was pro-reading. All good stuff.

203 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:42:21pm

I wonder if it's missed on people who would protest having the speech televised, there's a good chance their kid has a few teachers that are much more vocally liberal than the president. And they will be with their kids every day, for hours and hours, which the president won't. And they WILL talk their politics, which Obama won't. You have to accept that your kids are going to be influenced in ways you don't want them to be, and do your best to instill in them the backbone to draw their own conclusions.

204 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:42:21pm

re: #195 OldLineTexan

As long as I get my Studebaker calendars, we will always be friends.

/

I hope you get them, but I don't have any.

205 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:42:21pm

Has anyone noted that the presentation as it now stands WAS CHANGED recently?

206 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:42:40pm

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I'm at a Catholic school, so social justice actually on the curriculum...

What suggested activities bother you?

What kind of sick school has only a concrete playground? I played basketball in grade school every day in black slacks, white shirt and clip on tie and got my ass kicked every night for torn pants and ripped shirts...The nuns aged 20 years..My parents went broke...*wink*
/Wait till I start the catholic school stories one of these days..There will be lizards calling 911 for paramedics from laughing...I was a terror

207 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:43:22pm

Hey, remember when the NRA tried to GIVE AWAY a free gun safety program with Eddie the Eagle that told kids the following?

If you see a gun, don't touch it. Run and tell an adult.

The freak-outs were endless and LOUD. Apparently, the clueless ignorant liberal parents wanted their kids to TOUCH the guns?

/nothing new under the sun

208 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:43:51pm

re: #201 kilroy

Will the Republicans get a chance to respond to O's comments as in the State of the Union or the weekly address. I think that would be appropriate.

Yeah! Let's politicize it! GREAT idea!

/dripping

209 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:43:54pm

re: #200 Naso Tang

OK, so we are on the same page on the fundamentals, but with all due respect to your preferred usage of language, adults, and politicians in particular, who act like immature schoolchildren are fools if not nuts.

We are on the same page. I think the words "loon", "nut", "kook", etc are abused.

210 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:44:19pm
211 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:44:25pm

re: #201 kilroy

Will the Republicans get a chance to respond to O's comments as in the State of the Union or the weekly address. I think that would be appropriate.

And now, in rebuttal, "Why You Should Drop Out Of School And Be A Lazy Illiterate Bum", by Governor Jindal. Governor Jindal doesn't want to give this speech, but the party said they had to do something to counter Obama's message, and they figure he's already toast for 2012.

212 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:44:35pm

re: #202 theheat

Bush gave a similar speech in 1991

213 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:44:51pm

re: #209 cliffster

Go with Hitler. It's a winner every time.

//

214 Kilroy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:44:51pm

Its all politics!

215 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:44:56pm

re: #204 avanti

I hope you get them, but I don't have any.

You're treating me like a Ford man again, bro.

;)

/always with the kidding

216 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:45:26pm

re: #201 kilroy

Will the Republicans get a chance to respond to O's comments as in the State of the Union or the weekly address. I think that would be appropriate.

No, it isn't. Obama is not giving a policy address. He's talking to kids about how important school is. A GOP response would the very height of stupidity. All conservative momentum from this past month would be lost and we would look ugly and mindlessly partisan. Let Obama give his speech. Let's save any criticism for his speech to Congress the next night.

217 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:45:28pm

re: #201 kilroy

Will the Republicans get a chance to respond to O's comments as in the State of the Union or the weekly address. I think that would be appropriate.

That attitude is a part of the problem today, in my opinion. Actually, it's most of the problem. People are so blinded with hatred over politics, that they want to run counter-politics on everything.

218 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:45:37pm

re: #205 MandyManners

Has anyone noted that the presentation as it now stands WAS CHANGED recently?

Yep I didn't like how they phrased some of the syllabus, but changing it so quickly indicates to me "wups" rather than "curses! foiled again!" Somebody wrote it poorly, that's all. My kids are going and I'll watch it for talking to them about it later.

My take? He's karma-whoring.

219 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:45:49pm

re: #212 pat

And the kids still haven't recovered. For shame!

//

220 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:45:57pm

re: #201 kilroy

Will the Republicans get a chance to respond to O's comments as in the State of the Union or the weekly address. I think that would be appropriate.

I know! Maybe the Republican spokesperson could come on and tell the kids why it's a horrible idea to stay in school, because school is just going to teach them commie values!

Maybe they could teach the kids it's a horrible idea to set goals and excel academically, because the commies are just going to kick down their doors at 2am and haul them off to FEMA camps anyway!

Yeah. Now there's a school address the GOP can get behind.

221 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:46:05pm

re: #199 swamprat


Ok. You down-dinged me.

I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic, ironic, or if you were being part of the "nuts" crowd.

222 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:46:17pm

To me, what is important is that PUSHING-BACK WORKS.

223 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:46:22pm

re: #211 SanFranciscoZionist

And now, in rebuttal, "Why You Should Drop Out Of School And Be A Lazy Illiterate Bum", by Governor Jindal. Governor Jindal doesn't want to give this speech, but the party said they had to do something to counter Obama's message, and they figure he's already toast for 2012.

"Now kids, I wanna teach you something about volcanoes..."

/

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:46:30pm

re: #206 HoosierHoops

What kind of sick school has only a concrete playground? I played basketball in grade school every day in black slacks, white shirt and clip on tie and got my ass kicked every night for torn pants and ripped shirts...The nuns aged 20 years..My parents went broke...*wink*
/Wait till I start the catholic school stories one of these days..There will be lizards calling 911 for paramedics from laughing...I was a terror

Yeah. I used to teach at an inner-city Catholic elementary school. We had the all-asphalt yard. It was hard on pants, it was hard on knees.

Now I'm at a nice, swanky, Catholic high school with lawns and stuff.

225 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:46:38pm

re: #181 cliffster

No, they're not nuts, they're just bitter. And they look like immature schoolchildren when they act like this.

Whatever you think of them, keep in mind that they are their kids', not yours, and not mine.

I can handle this just fine. It's going to happen, whether one wants it to or not.

We'll see.

226 solomonpanting  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:46:38pm

Some teachers will air the speech to encourage students along a path of righteousness.
I imagine some teachers of the younger students will use the sound drone of an Obama speech as a sleep aide for nap time.

227 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:46:52pm

re: #194 Jetpilot1101

OT: Chief, we may disagree on a lot of issues but I respect the hell out of you. Men and women of your paygrade have taught me more then 100 years at the factory could. Thank you for your service and thank you for always being a mentor to people like me.

Thanks, and funny you mention the Chief thing just now. I've been asked to give a little talk to some Mids that may be under the impression that a new Ensign is senior to a Chief in the real world Navy. Basically, it's the learn the ropes from the Petty Officers speech, even if you are senior on paper.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:47:02pm

re: #207 OldLineTexan

Hey, remember when the NRA tried to GIVE AWAY a free gun safety program with Eddie the Eagle that told kids the following?

If you see a gun, don't touch it. Run and tell an adult.

The freak-outs were endless and LOUD. Apparently, the clueless ignorant liberal parents wanted their kids to TOUCH the guns?

/nothing new under the sun

I remember Eddie the Eagle. I think I had a coloring book?

229 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:47:18pm

Oh, and I am sure you all remember Gephartd, Kerry etc. going nuts about the issue...because they did. Even without the stupid study plan the DOE put out here.

230 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:47:25pm

re: #223 Gus 802

"Now kids, I wanna teach you something about volcanoes..."

/

If the left hadn't whined so much about "Just Say No", we'd have some virgins available, just in case ...

/

231 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:48:28pm

re: #230 OldLineTexan

If the left hadn't whined so much about "Just Say No", we'd have some virgins available, just in case ...

/

LMAO.

232 Kilroy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:49:16pm

The response to O's presentation may represent conservative values in addition to what he has to say. Otherwise it's just a missed opportunity to talk to the kids.

233 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:49:25pm

Towercam dusk with fires and smoke. Check it out.


...

It is my job to coach my kids, not Obama's.

234 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:49:38pm

re: #227 avanti

Thanks, and funny you mention the Chief thing just now. I've been asked to give a little talk to some Mids that may be under the impression that a new Ensign is senior to a Chief in the real world Navy. Basically, it's the learn the ropes from the Petty Officers speech, even if you are senior on paper.

Best advice I got leaving the academy was "keep your mouth shut and listen to your chief". I've never stopped. Chiefs are the backbone of the military. There is no flag officer who got there without one hell of a chief helping him out. Wish we could have served together.

235 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:49:50pm

The republicans are going to issue a rebuttal telling the children to drop out of school and to never be true to themselves.

236 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:50:03pm

re: #228 SanFranciscoZionist

I remember Eddie the Eagle. I think I had a coloring book?

Yes.

It wasn't allowed into our bitter, clingy typical white school, due to parent protests.

I didn't use it. My kids were taught the old-fashioned way.

But the message, completely neutral on anything but SAFETY, was drowned out by the messenger, teh evul NRA.

/sound at all familiar?

237 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:50:04pm

re: #225 SasquatchOnSteroids

Whatever you think of them, keep in mind that they are their kids', not yours, and not mine.

I can handle this just fine. It's going to happen, whether one wants it to or not.

We'll see.

Oh I get it. It would be very easy for, you know, my kids to be "sick" that day. But I would recognize that it's my own bitterness driving that. On the other hand, the spokesmen for the GOP, well they should do better.

238 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:50:12pm

re: #215 OldLineTexan

You're treating me like a Ford man again, bro.

;)

/always with the kidding

You may have me confused with the calendar guy.

239 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:50:27pm

re: #224 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. I used to teach at an inner-city Catholic elementary school. We had the all-asphalt yard. It was hard on pants, it was hard on knees.

Now I'm at a nice, swanky, Catholic high school with lawns and stuff.

Very nice...You know I went to school in Napa...Very close to you..
Hope you are well...Just wait till we get to the stories from Catholic school that my parents only tell thread..*wink*

240 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:51:07pm

re: #235 swamprat

The republicans are going to issue a rebuttal telling the children to drop out of school and to never be true to themselves.

Let me know where it's posted.

241 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:51:29pm

re: #197 MandyManners

No head-chopping?

I trust you don't mean that as a serious rebuttal?

242 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:51:40pm

re: #234 Jetpilot1101

Best advice I got leaving the academy was "keep your mouth shut and listen to your chief". I've never stopped. Chiefs are the backbone of the military. There is no flag officer who got there without one hell of a chief helping him out. Wish we could have served together.

If we had, you would have been a baby, but thanks. :)

243 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:51:58pm

re: #238 avanti

You may have me confused with the calendar guy.

I hope it's not the guy in charge of green Studebakers. He's an asshole.

/

244 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:52:21pm

re: #232 Kilroy

The response to O's presentation may represent conservative values in addition to what he has to say. Otherwise it's just a missed opportunity to talk to the kids.

Yeah, conservative values like staying in school and setting goals and achieving their dreams...

Oh, wait.

245 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:52:34pm

re: #232 Kilroy

The response to O's presentation may represent conservative values in addition to what he has to say. Otherwise it's just a missed opportunity to talk to the kids.

For the second time: NO, IT WON'T! All a conservative response will do is make Republicans look petty and mindlessly partisan. It only effect can be to strengthen Obama. Drop the idea, Kilroy.

246 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:53:14pm

Actually if I was a kid back in elementary school I wouldn't mind the speech thing the first week of school. It would be a free hour out of class where you didn't have to do anything and there wouldn't be any homework. And you could sit in the back and goof off. Maybe break some pencils in pencil fights, Flip 3-way quarters with the lunch money to try to double it up, Catch up with buddies I hadn't seen all summer, Check out the new girls..

You can't get mesmerized if you don't listen.

Bit I do hope Obama tells all the kids to stay away from cigarettes.

247 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:53:16pm
248 Killian Bundy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:53:35pm

Maybe they should play the Obama talk backwards.

/you know, just to see what happens

249 Kilroy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:53:48pm

I guess I'll just climb back up my mountain.

250 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:53:52pm

re: #233 Ojoe

Towercam dusk with fires and smoke. Check it out.


...

It is my job to coach my kids, not Obama's.

YES! YES! YES!

251 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:53:59pm

BTW, my kids go to school regardless.

And the State has gotten pretty nasty about it this year. I received a strongly-worded form letter - I swear I thought the UN would be parking an APC in my driveway ...

/

252 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:54:08pm

OK... as advised above I've looked closely at the "language" in the lesson plans/guidelines on the DoEd website:

[Link: www.ed.gov...]
[Link: www.ed.gov...]

1. There are no Ebonics, so you can relax.
2. There are instances of poor grammar.
3. It was written with a sans-serif font.
4. There are a large number of words that could best be described as being part of the contemporary Academic lexicon.
5. One use of the word "historic".

Did I miss anything?

253 transient  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:54:11pm

Here's a crazy idea.
The Republicans could get their act together, create a pragmatic program that appeals to enough Americans to win the next presidential election, and then a Republican president could address the students.

254 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:54:41pm

re: #248 Killian Bundy

Maybe they should play the Obama talk backwards.

/you know, just to see what happens

It's "Paul is dead", same as everything else.

/

255 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:54:43pm

re: #253 transient

Crazy RINO talk- that is.

256 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:54:53pm

re: #253 transient

jackass!

//

257 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:55:26pm

Bobby Jindal walks out of his mansion's foyer, and says:

I know the Resident in Chief has just told you to stay in school and work hard, but the Republican Party would like you to know that it's not really necessary. Just read your Bible, kids, and don't bother listening to any of those evil secular scientists. They're just trying to trick you.

If any of you are suffering from demonic possession, see me after school in Room 2B.

I'm Bobby Jindal and I approve this message.

258 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:55:28pm

re: #233 Ojoe

Towercam dusk with fires and smoke. Check it out.

...

It is my job to coach my kids, not Obama's.

Glad you do it, some don't.

259 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:55:40pm

re: #252 freetoken

Did someone actually suggest that President Obama would speak in Ebonics? You have this theme going; I'm just wondering why.

260 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:55:53pm

re: #241 Naso Tang

I trust you don't mean that as a serious rebuttal?

No more serious than your bullshit in No. 130.

261 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:55:58pm

re: #246 Mich-again

Bit I do hope Obama tells all the kids to stay away from cigarettes.

That would be fucking hilarious.

262 Kilroy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:56:24pm

re: #254 OldLineTexan

How do you play a CD backwards?

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:57:03pm

re: #236 OldLineTexan

Yes.

It wasn't allowed into our bitter, clingy typical white school, due to parent protests.

I didn't use it. My kids were taught the old-fashioned way.

But the message, completely neutral on anything but SAFETY, was drowned out by the messenger, teh evul NRA.

/sound at all familiar?

Basic family rule was, never touch a gun without Daddy present, never touch Daddy's gun locker AT ALL.

To the point that, well into my twenties, I didn't like to have to move the gun locker while, say, cleaning, or looking for the spare gloves. Eddie was just for fun, because my dad had a membership and they mailed it. He quit when the first President Bush did, I think.

Of course at the age of three I was also cleaning my father's service revolver, because he had discovered that I thought it was fun, while he thought it was a grim chore.

264 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:57:04pm

re: #259 OldLineTexan

Did someone actually suggest that President Obama would speak in Ebonics? You have this theme going; I'm just wondering why.

Seriously.

265 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:57:08pm

re: #233 Ojoe

It is my job to coach my kids, not Obama's.

I agree.

But you have to remember that many, many minority children don't have much of a positive male role model. Athletes and rap stars, whee.

If he can inspire some kids to work harder it's worth it. And I'll give him credit for it.

266 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:57:22pm

re: #155 Charles

If it isn't clear enough yet, I have absolutely no respect for this craziness, and I intend to mock it like a red-headed stepchild.

The GOP should be utterly ashamed. They're promoting a sick divisive view of America, and they have no compunctions about using children to do it.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised- cdesign proponentsists have been doing it for years.

267 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:57:53pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

Basic family rule was, never touch a gun without Daddy present, never touch Daddy's gun locker AT ALL.

To the point that, well into my twenties, I didn't like to have to move the gun locker while, say, cleaning, or looking for the spare gloves. Eddie was just for fun, because my dad had a membership and they mailed it. He quit when the first President Bush did, I think.

Of course at the age of three I was also cleaning my father's service revolver, because he had discovered that I thought it was fun, while he thought it was a grim chore.

That was funny, when Bush quit over the NRA quoting a Democrat.

268 Killian Bundy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:57:57pm

re: #257 Charles

Bobby Jindal walks out of his mansion's foyer, and says:

Happy 2nd Amendment Weekend Holiday, everyone!

/stock up on ammo

269 doubter4444  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:58:07pm

Since the quite a few of posters here repeatedly say over and over "if Bush did this he'd be vilified", I want to know, how many honestly would give a rats ass if Bush spoke to kids to wish them well?

How many would be up in arms against it?

Leave out the crazy "he's got a communist agenda", or "he's brain washing our youths" for a moment, because if you really believe that, you forfeit any vote by your ODS.

This is a good luck, study hard message, just what the fuck is wrong with that?
Really, truly, if Bush (or any Republican President) did this would you care?

This issue, of all the bullshit ones that the wing-nuts have advanced, disgusts me to my core, it is base pandering to a degree that makes me sooo angry.
It's beyond disrespectful, it's trash.
That legitimate republicans spout this nonsense is beyond the pale.
This is birther or Creationist territory, only worse, as it attracts the intuition of the president directly, and for no reason.
I will not forget this, neither will many other moderates, and over this I think, the lines are drawn.
I will not support anyone who believes this is a correct course of action, and I will not respect anyone's future opinions who thinks so, on this blog or in the real world.
If you believe this, then literally nothing he will ever say (short of "I resign") will be seen as an objective appraisal of the situation at hand, but rather, another opportunity to bash or "prove" his dishonesty, and nothing someone who believes this crap can ever be seen except through the prism of their hated of Obama, and as a result, any comment by them on complex issues that face us are skewed, and irreverent.

Fuck Paulenty, and the pig he rode in on.

270 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:58:09pm

There is plenty to be exercised about given the lib loons at the wheel of government these days, and the direction in which we are evidently headed is very threatening to traditional values and economic common sense.

Fine. Argue, oppose and educate, but stop this conspiracy wrought "conservative" insanity! And don't tell me it's for the children. Cripes.

A very fine man, a friend and colleague for many years flew in today to work with me on a business opportunity. Not five minutes on the ground and he asked me did I know who Glen Beck was and had I read his latest book.

Uh, oh.

I said yes I knew who he was and no I had not read the book (though some misguided person had sent me a copy), and then I delicately inferred I found him annoying and a bit disturbing hoping this would be the end of the conversation. Unfortunately, this did not stop my otherwise rational and very fun friend from going off for about 15 minutes - Holder, Van Jones, Czars, Communists, etc. culminating in the statement that Obama was "just like Hitler".

*stunned silence*

How in the hell do you talk someone down from that cliff? This crazy is not comfortable, my friends. Conservatism has lost all reason. This is an infection of reason, it is spreading and I see no imminent cure. And please don't anyone say Sarah Palin.

271 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:58:23pm

re: #265 esch

It is my job to coach my kids, not Obama's.

I agree.

But you have to remember that many, many minority children don't have much of a positive male role model. Athletes and rap stars, whee.

If he can inspire some kids to work harder it's worth it. And I'll give him credit for it.

Horsefeathers!

Piss-poor parenting is not dictated my the color of skin.

272 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:58:32pm

re: #233 Ojoe

What a GREAT picture!
Thank you!

273 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:58:38pm

re: #220 Charles

I know! Maybe the Republican spokesperson could come on and tell the kids why it's a horrible idea to stay in school, because school is just going to teach them commie values!

Actually what if the GOP response was to add to the positive message of work hard and stay in school and live clean. Would that be OK. Or would it steal Obama's spotlight.

274 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:59:00pm

re: #262 Kilroy

How do you play a CD backwards?

Reverse the polarity of the drive motor.

Hilarity ensues.

275 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:59:02pm

re: #265 esch

True, and tragic.

276 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:59:08pm

At best I find 0bama's scheduled broadcast to da yutes of America overreaching, patronizing and narccisitic- at best. 'Stay in school, study hard and don't do drugs'...wow...what a winning combo that you've hit upon, Hussein Dolt. If only the parents and educators in this country could've thought up of something along those lines.///

Basically if I were a White House staffer, I'd be concerned about overexposure at this rate. Of course, using that line of reasoning- if a projected budget deficit of anywhere between $9 Trillion and $14 trillion is nothing to be concerned over, what's a little more facetime on TV by comparison?

277 Kilroy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:59:13pm

This is going to be a real hoot; can parents go to school with there kids to bite off fingers.

278 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 7:59:40pm

re: #272 Floral Giraffe

Thank the astronomers at UCLA.

279 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:00:04pm

re: #260 MandyManners

No more serious than your bullshit in No. 130.

Are you nuts Mandy? You think I was drawing parallels with violence when I clearly meant fear of anything different, even if only imagined?

280 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:00:26pm

re: #259 OldLineTexan

I'm just wondering why.

Were you around when "Ebonics" became a hot topic?

To this day there is a bone of contention around language.

Example: Rush Limbaugh when he makes fun of those who say "ax" when intending "ask", etc.

281 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:00:30pm

re: #270 The Shadow Do

How in the hell do you talk someone down from that cliff? This crazy is not comfortable, my friends. Conservatism has lost all reason. This is an infection of reason, it is spreading and I see no imminent cure. And please don't anyone say Sarah Palin.


No one will because Cato's not here, thank God.

282 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:00:50pm

re: #271 MandyManners

As evidenced on countless episodes of Jerry Springer.

283 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:01:02pm

OT: Only because I'm 3 glasses of wine into this thread but Charles have you ever listened to Beth Patterson and if so, what do you think.

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:01:03pm

re: #265 esch

It is my job to coach my kids, not Obama's.

I agree.

But you have to remember that many, many minority children don't have much of a positive male role model. Athletes and rap stars, whee.

If he can inspire some kids to work harder it's worth it. And I'll give him credit for it.

And plenty of majority children in the same boat. Too true.

285 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:01:37pm

re: #237 cliffster

Oh I get it. It would be very easy for, you know, my kids to be "sick" that day. But I would recognize that it's my own bitterness driving that. On the other hand, the spokesmen for the GOP, well they should do better.

Raise your kids your way. It's not my business
I'll raise mine my way. It's not your business.
That's all I was trying to say.


Why do you presume they're all bitter ?

286 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:01:39pm

re: #277 Kilroy

Dark_Falcon to Troll: Would you please flounce off already?!

287 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:02:18pm

re: #280 freetoken

Were you around when "Ebonics" became a hot topic?

To this day there is a bone of contention around language.

Example: Rush Limbaugh when he makes fun of those who say "ax" when intending "ask", etc.

There was a professor I took at UCLA, Ivy league graduate and the whole bit, who used to say "ax" instead of "ask". It's like, "How the fuck can I take you seriously if you can't get that right?"

288 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:02:31pm

re: #280 freetoken

Were you around when "Ebonics" became a hot topic?

To this day there is a bone of contention around language.

Example: Rush Limbaugh when he makes fun of those who say "ax" when intending "ask", etc.

Yes, I was. As in the past.

I was wondering why you connected that with Obama ... if someone had actually suggested that.

289 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:02:41pm

re: #286 Dark_Falcon

Now now, premature flouncing has been known to lead to chronic frustration for the others involved...

290 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:03:00pm

re: #276 Fenway_Nation

At best I find 0bama's scheduled broadcast to da yutes of America overreaching, patronizing and narccisitic- at best. 'Stay in school, study hard and don't do drugs'...wow...what a winning combo that you've hit upon, Hussein Dolt. If only the parents and educators in this country could've thought up of something along those lines.///

Basically if I were a White House staffer, I'd be concerned about overexposure at this rate. Of course, using that line of reasoning- if a projected budget deficit of anywhere between $9 Trillion and $14 trillion is nothing to be concerned over, what's a little more facetime on TV by comparison?

That's the most important thing. We're all sick of this fuckin' guy already.

291 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:03:02pm

re: #271 MandyManners

Horsefeathers!

Piss-poor parenting is not dictated my the color of skin.

Dictated? No. But it is statistically higher.

And I say that coming from a lower-middle class white family with a basically nonexistent father. I went to an inner city school as a member of the minority. I saw the effects of lack of role models and experienced it myself.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:03:19pm

re: #269 doubter4444

Since the quite a few of posters here repeatedly say over and over "if Bush did this he'd be vilified", I want to know, how many honestly would give a rats ass if Bush spoke to kids to wish them well?

How many would be up in arms against it?

Leave out the crazy "he's got a communist agenda", or "he's brain washing our youths" for a moment, because if you really believe that, you forfeit any vote by your ODS.

This is a good luck, study hard message, just what the fuck is wrong with that?
Really, truly, if Bush (or any Republican President) did this would you care?

This issue, of all the bullshit ones that the wing-nuts have advanced, disgusts me to my core, it is base pandering to a degree that makes me sooo angry.
It's beyond disrespectful, it's trash.
That legitimate republicans spout this nonsense is beyond the pale.
This is birther or Creationist territory, only worse, as it attracts the intuition of the president directly, and for no reason.
I will not forget this, neither will many other moderates, and over this I think, the lines are drawn.
I will not support anyone who believes this is a correct course of action, and I will not respect anyone's future opinions who thinks so, on this blog or in the real world.
If you believe this, then literally nothing he will ever say (short of "I resign") will be seen as an objective appraisal of the situation at hand, but rather, another opportunity to bash or "prove" his dishonesty, and nothing someone who believes this crap can ever be seen except through the prism of their hated of Obama, and as a result, any comment by them on complex issues that face us are skewed, and irreverent.

Fuck Paulenty, and the pig he rode in on.

I'm a fourth generation Democrat. If George W. Bush had wanted to go on TV and tell my hypothetical kids to work hard and follow their dreams, I would have been entirely fine with it. His father likewise, Reagan likewise.

If Reagan had thrown in one of those weird not-quite-with-it anti-drug messages I would have been mildly annoyed.

293 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:03:20pm

re: #285 SasquatchOnSteroids

Raise your kids your way. It's not my business
I'll raise mine my way. It's not your business.
That's all I was trying to say.

Why do you presume they're all bitter ?

Well I agree with you on your first point, of course. As for why I presume that, I just can't think of any other reason to make such an issue of it.

294 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:03:59pm

re: #277 Kilroy

This is going to be a real hoot; can parents go to school with there kids to bite off fingers.

Yeah! Now you're talking! That would be great!

Bobby Jindal ends his address by biting off Nancy Pelosi's pinky!

Must-see TV!

295 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:04:20pm

re: #257 Charles

Bobby Jindal walks out of his mansion's foyer, and says:

You know what this is like Charles? It's just like the Movie the Dead Zone..Where at the end of the movie the President grabs the child in front of him so he will not be shot and it ruins his life...There are Right wing extremest that are fantasying about Obama holding a first grader in front of the assassin...Just like the movie... Is that crazy?
Maybe no more crazy than worrying about the leader of the free world telling children to study hard...
It's just like the plot points to the Dead zone...

296 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:04:40pm

re: #288 OldLineTexan

I was wondering why you connected that with Obama ... if someone had actually suggested that.

We were petitioned to look a the "language" involved, closely.

Now, I suppose the writer of that comment really meant "content", but since this is about education I decided a bit of pedantry would be appropriate. Or at least funny.

297 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:04:53pm

re: #289 freetoken

Now now, premature flouncing has been known to lead to chronic frustration for the others involved...

I know, but I'm hungry. The other trolls today flounced right before lunch and so I couldn't get a bite out of them because I was going to have lunch with my parents. I want this troll to flounce so I can grill it.

298 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:05:02pm

re: #294 Charles

It's only because he saw what he believed was a pro-communist propaganda message in the pattern of Pelosi's dress. That, and his dog told him to.

299 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:05:06pm

re: #271 MandyManners

Horsefeathers!

Piss-poor parenting is not dictated my the color of skin.

I think you are being overly PC. It's a statistical fact that a very large percentage of minority kids come from single parent homes, many of them disadvantaged and with poorer parenting skills. How else could you explain the lower test scores and high drop out rates if not largely from weaker parental support ?

300 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:05:23pm

re: #296 freetoken

We were petitioned to look a the "language" involved, closely.

Now, I suppose the writer of that comment really meant "content", but since this is about education I decided a bit of pedantry would be appropriate. Or at least funny.

OK, I missed the jumping-off point for the word-play, it seems.

301 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:05:24pm

re: #278 Ojoe

No, you post the links for us to see.
Thank you!

302 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:05:37pm

re: #290 TheMatrix31

That's the most important thing. We're all sick of this fuckin' guy already.

His handlers don't seem to realize this at all.

303 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:05:55pm

re: #287 TheMatrix31

There was a professor I took at UCLA, Ivy league graduate and the whole bit, who used to say "ax" instead of "ask". It's like, "How the fuck can I take you seriously if you can't get that right?"

Hmmm. But on this very site, although not by you, I have been told that people who don't like Sarah Palin think she's stupid because of her North Country accent. What's the big deal with 'ax'?

304 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:06:13pm

re: #279 Naso Tang

Are you nuts Mandy? You think I was drawing parallels with violence when I clearly meant fear of anything different, even if only imagined?

Yes. I am.

Next question?

No.

Really.

This is insane. FCCBHO has REVISED his presentation.

What is worrisp,e

305 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:06:13pm

re: #294 Charles

Yeah! Now you're talking! That would be great!

Bobby Jindal ends his address by biting off Nancy Pelosi's pinky!

Must-see TV!

Rather see Ozzy Osbourne bite off her head. Hey, he's bit the head off a bird once before!

306 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:06:17pm

re: #298 theheat

It's only because he saw what he believed was a pro-communist propaganda message in the pattern of Pelosi's dress. That, and his dog told him to.

Jindal does not have the jaw muscles that would be needed to bite through the armored skin on San Fran Nan.

/

307 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:06:25pm

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm a fourth generation Democrat. If George W. Bush had wanted to go on TV and tell my hypothetical kids to work hard and follow their dreams, I would have been entirely fine with it. His father likewise, Reagan likewise.

If Reagan had thrown in one of those weird not-quite-with-it anti-drug messages I would have been mildly annoyed.

In filmstrip form?

Remember those?

308 JanglerNPL  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:06:44pm

Jim Lindgren at The Volokh Conspiracy did a little digging, and found the following line from George H. W. Bush's 1991 speech to schools (bolding his): ''Let me know how you're doing. Write me a letter. I'm serious about this one. Write me a letter about ways you can help us achieve our goals.''

309 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:07:19pm

re: #303 SanFranciscoZionist

Hmmm. But on this very site, although not by you, I have been told that people who don't like Sarah Palin think she's stupid because of her North Country accent. What's the big deal with 'ax'?

It's just irritating. Just like people find her folksy accent irritating. Just like I find Obama's southern-ebonic drawl irritating.

Oh well.

310 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:07:23pm

re: #302 Fenway_Nation

The marketing is all they got. All image, (virtually) no substance.

311 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:07:40pm

re: #302 Fenway_Nation

His handlers don't seem to realize this at all.

Good

312 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:07:43pm

The hate mail is starting up again, after all those good conservatives are finished dinner and ready to spew some more venom at me because I wouldn't join them in the fever swamp hot tub.

313 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:07:57pm

re: #308 JanglerNPL

Jim Lindgren at The Volokh Conspiracy did a little digging, and found the following line from George H. W. Bush's 1991 speech to schools (bolding his): ''Let me know how you're doing. Write me a letter. I'm serious about this one. Write me a letter about ways you can help us achieve our goals.''

Well, that does it. I'm not voting for him, and I am retroactively pulling my oldest child out of kindergarten that day.

/

314 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:08:01pm

re: #305 TheMatrix31

Rather see Ozzy Osbourne bite off her head. Hey, he's bit the head off a bird once before!

That was actually a bat. So his biting the head off a moonbat wouldn't be a major stretch.

/must I?

315 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:08:03pm

re: #307 Gus 802

In filmstrip form?

Remember those?

Heck yeah! And if you sucked up to the teacher, you got to be the boss of the filmstirp advancing, the envy of the entire classroom.

Or so I heard. I mean, not that I'd know first hand or anything.

316 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:08:05pm

re: #296 freetoken

We were petitioned to look a the "language" involved, closely.

Now, I suppose the writer of that comment really meant "content", but since this is about education I decided a bit of pedantry would be appropriate. Or at least funny.

0-for-2.

317 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:08:25pm

re: #314 Dark_Falcon

That was actually a bat. So his biting the head off a moonbat wouldn't be a major stretch.

/must I?

Appropriate enough.

318 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:08:30pm

re: #309 TheMatrix31

It's just irritating. Just like people find her folksy accent irritating. Just like I find Obama's southern-ebonic drawl irritating.

Oh well.

That was Hillary.

/

319 horse  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:08:32pm

I don't think all of it is fake outrage, but it is misplaced outrage. A few start the fake outrage sprinkled with dirt to get the ball rolling, it snowballs into a lot of misplaced outrage which then becomes the news story. Classic dirty politics, which nowadays is the only politics the political class seems to be able to play. I believe most normal people with the misplaced outrage just want to be left alone to live their lives. They are probably tired of being preached at and prodded to do things that just aren't a priority when trying to raise a family in very difficult economic times.

It's Maslow's hierarchy, right now a lot of people are more concerned with their basic needs and security than their physiological needs, let alone lofty self-actualization issues. The way they are over reacting almost seems to demonstrate the point. When people are secure again they will have the energy and mind to focus on the higher issues. Until then, there are going to be a lot of blow ups over seemingly small issues manipulated into being big emotional issues.

320 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:09:03pm

re: #303 SanFranciscoZionist

Hmmm. But on this very site, although not by you, I have been told that people who don't like Sarah Palin think she's stupid because of her North Country accent. What's the big deal with 'ax'?

Lousy diction, there is no excuse for it among the educated unless it is an affectation.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:09:10pm

re: #307 Gus 802

In filmstrip form?

Remember those?

Oh, and the jingles. "Winners don't use, and users don't win, So don't use drugs, dooon't use drugs!"

322 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:09:17pm

This "boycott" or whatever of the President's speech is an embodiment of the "not my president" principle, which I recall the right didn't appreciate from the other side of the aisle, but seems we're all to willing to behave in a similar fashion when it suits our needs. But I think it sends other signals, too.

I think it's a bad message to send to children that the President isn't worth listening to. We have enough of an issue with people not paying attention to current events and politics- we shouldn't be encouraging this. It's also important that children learn civic responsibility- that we have the right to speech and what that means. This actually is a teachable moment.

Parents who don't like Obama should still allow the discourse to proceed. Give the man the floor, and talk to your children about your political principles later after school. It's the American thing to do.

323 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:09:35pm

re: #299 avanti

I think you are being overly PC. It's a statistical fact that a very large percentage of minority kids come from single parent homes, many of them disadvantaged and with poorer parenting skills. How else could you explain the lower test scores and high drop out rates if not largely from weaker parental support ?

Mandy knows that. Ask her to explain herself better. It's hard and you have to be careful with your semantics, but maybe you won't get the rope trick immediately.

324 solicitr  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:09:41pm

To my knowledge, the institutional GOP hasn't said a thing- it's all blogosphere and broadcasters. But that's fine. Let the public officials stay above the fray.

In the meantime, the industrious termites go to work at the Obama edifice. And that's fine too.

What I'm afraid some are missing here is that it doesn't matter that this kerfluffle is chickenshit. The goal is the end of the Obama administration- and any controversy (that isn't an outright fabrication) helps save the country from the bastards. You know, Jimmy Carter's 'killer rabbit' was chickenshit, and Gerald Ford's trick knee was chickenshit- but they were political wounds nonetheless.

Every bit of fear and loathing generated against the bum is all good. This is *politics*, people! Do you think the lefties won by being measured and rational? Bullcrap! It was "Blood for Halliburton" and "George Bush don't care about black people." It was eight years of Jon Stewart's smirks and cheap shots- usually over chickenshit. I'm sorry, but those of you who want to cop a courtly, reasonable Bill Buckley attitude are bringing Queensbury rules to an alley fight.

Jesus, ponder for a second the price of allowing this commie motherf*cker a second term!

By whatever means necessary.

325 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:09:50pm

re: #294 Charles

You have it backwards. Bobby punches Nancy in the face. Nancy bites off his finger.

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:10:03pm

re: #308 JanglerNPL

Jim Lindgren at The Volokh Conspiracy did a little digging, and found the following line from George H. W. Bush's 1991 speech to schools (bolding his): ''Let me know how you're doing. Write me a letter. I'm serious about this one. Write me a letter about ways you can help us achieve our goals.''

Conspiracy?

327 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:10:08pm

re: #315 theheat

Heck yeah! And if you sucked up to the teacher, you got to be the boss of the filmstirp advancing, the envy of the entire classroom.

Or so I heard. I mean, not that I'd know first hand or anything.

Yeah, there was always the one or two "AV guys" in class.

328 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:10:19pm

re: #318 OldLineTexan


What about AlGore's fire-and-brimstone Southern Baptist tent revival preacher speech patterns after losing the election?

329 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:10:36pm

re: #324 solicitr

By whatever means necessary.

Yeah! Now you're talking! Let's be just like the PLO!

330 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:10:37pm

re: #293 cliffster

Well I agree with you on your first point, of course. As for why I presume that, I just can't think of any other reason to make such an issue of it.

Kids are hot topics.
People telling you how to raise your kids is even a hotter topic.
I don't go there.

There's some bitterness going on, sure, but some parents just want to protect their kid from what they see as undermining their authority.

I see that. More power to them.

331 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:10:42pm

re: #304 MandyManners

Cute.

332 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:10:56pm

re: #299 avanti

I think you are being overly PC. It's a statistical fact that a very large percentage of minority kids come from single parent homes, many of them disadvantaged and with poorer parenting skills. How else could you explain the lower test scores and high drop out rates if not largely from weaker parental support ?

People use it as an excuse and a scapegoat all the time. Fuck that. BOTH my parents slaved their asses off to provide for their FIVE children and we were able to grow up properly and smart. They were hardly there but they were still able to do it.

If they want it to be done, they can have it done.

333 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:11:00pm

re: #328 Fenway_Nation

What about AlGore's fire-and-brimstone Southern Baptist tent revival preacher speech patterns after losing the election?

He's at least from Tennessee.

334 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:11:06pm

re: #313 OldLineTexan

Well, that does it. I'm not voting for him, and I am retroactively pulling my oldest child out of kindergarten that day.

/

Crap, is it possible my kid heard the Bush speech and may not stay a leftie like his dad ???

335 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:11:34pm

re: #324 solicitr

I think I see what it is your soliciting now. No thanks.

336 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:11:47pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, and the jingles. "Winners don't use, and users don't win, So don't use drugs, dooon't use drugs!"

I don't remember the jingles. I do remember watching them and the general feeling I got was "what's this all about?" The reason is because before watching those films and filmstrips I had no knowledge of drugs or drug culture as shown on those mediums.

337 irongrampa  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:11:51pm

If, as has been remarked on, changes to the speech have been made, fine. I see no particular problem with a dissertation on staying in school, doing well, etc--reading several blogs on the net,the majority of the objection was to the proposed work assignments AFTER. This was also true in my family,oldest daughter decided to opt out of the entire thing. No argument from this corner there.

I suspect all the uproar will turn out to have been a good thing, by ensuring that this speech will likely be accurately described as bland.

Sometimes things Do work out for the better.

338 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:11:54pm

re: #318 OldLineTexan

That was Hillary.

/

He has it too. It's like, a mix of ridiculous southern-ebonics mixed with asshole Ivy elite. Insane combination. Annoying speaking cadence.

339 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:12:01pm

re: #324 solicitr

But seriously, get the hell off my website, please.

340 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:12:02pm

re: #328 Fenway_Nation

Remember, he looked like he was going to explode, with all that spit flying, and his veins about to burst? Gross.

341 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:12:09pm

re: #334 avanti

Crap, is it possible my kid heard the Bush speech and may not stay a leftie like his dad ???

Call him NOW and read to him from Newsweek, just to check.

342 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:12:18pm
343 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:12:47pm

re: #324 solicitr

Bleah. Gotta disagree with you there.

You need to prove to the squishy middle that we have less bastards than the other side. Those kinds of tactics are really counterproductive.

344 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:13:17pm

Damn, that was a screwed up comment. #324

345 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:13:19pm

If Bush did this he would have been vilified;
By the usual group of complete morons and nuts.
This is not a good role for the republican party to adopt.
The republicans getting in touch with their inner Pelosi, does not speak well for the party.
People hear this crap and say to themselves; Gee, what total loons.

347 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:13:37pm

re: #342 BenZ's Bat

I know. How dare the Big Zero think that kids might be inspired by an address from the President of the United States? Who does he think he is??!

348 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:13:46pm

I have no problem with The President of the United States making a speech to America's school kids. If he says something outrageous or inappropriate, then talk too me afterward, perhaps I'll have a different view

349 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:13:57pm

re: #338 TheMatrix31

He has it too. It's like, a mix of ridiculous southern-ebonics mixed with asshole Ivy elite. Insane combination. Annoying speaking cadence.

I haven't heard it ... I assumed the odd cadence was the TOTUS' fault.

/

350 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:14:38pm

re: #345 swamprat

If Bush did this he would have been vilified;


He did do it, so did Reagan. Probably Clinton too. This is nothing new. It's like people have never been to this planet before.

351 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:14:39pm

re: #339 Charles

But seriously, get the hell off my website, please.

Thank you, Charles. Roast solictr with wine sauce will be ready in 40 minutes. The longer delay is for the sauce.

352 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:14:46pm

re: #325 gulfloafer

You have it backwards. Bobby punches Nancy in the face. Nancy bites off his finger.

Nancy won't bite anyone. She is the stuffed mother in Psycho. Sawdust and dried skin.

I know, I should be more respectful. Sorry.

353 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:15:01pm

re: #344 Gus 802

Damn, that was a screwed up comment. #324

That's where we're at.

354 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:15:27pm

re: #299 avanti

How else could you explain the lower test scores and high drop out rates if not largely from weaker parental support ?

I've spent quite a few hours the last 5 years volunteering in Detroit Elementary schools. They have all been dumps. As in not clean, cluttered, smelly, and needing a fresh coat of paint and someone to wash the windows every few years whether they need it or not. The rooms are ill-equipped (forget about computer labs) and teachers I know say any decent equipment gets stolen eventually in break-ins.

The kids seem just as smart and insightful and willing to learn as any kids I've been around and they've always been respectful as well. I think your comment about poor parenting skills is painted with too broad a brush. Poor families are no less capable of raising their kids to be decent people.

But if their kids stay in that school district the odds are definitely stacked against them.

355 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:15:51pm
356 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:15:59pm

Five hate mails in the last 10 minutes.

357 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:16:35pm

re: #342 BenZ's Bat

I personally could care less what your political background is, if your a politician, elected official or not, I don't want you in my child classroom.

Great, teach the kids by forbidding any communications from politicians.//

358 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:16:36pm

re: #353 Charles

That's where we're at.

It's both unfortunate and disturbing.

359 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:16:39pm

re: #355 BenZ's Bat

If I want my kids to be inspired by a "hero" I'll make sue they see a "hero." For example an astronaut, firefighter/police/ems, doctor, even a stockbroker. I don't want politicians talking at my kids. Period.

Yeah! Wouldn't want them getting the impression that the President of the United States is anybody special, would we?

360 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:16:42pm

re: #342 BenZ's Bat

What a great way to teach civics to the kids- bar them from any political contact.

This is an incredibly short-sighted view. Fact is, politics is in the schools, especially high schools- kids are already politicized, mainly from their parents. To try to cut out politics would limit our ability to teach them proper civics. It does belong in school- it's essential it's in school, and the fact it's been so degraded in schools already is part of why we're in this mess.

361 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:16:47pm

re: #353 Charles

That's where we're at.

The vast majority of the right in this country have completly lost their mind. Charles may be the one sane voice in the midst of a cacophony of complete idiocy.

362 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:17:01pm

re: #357 Naso Tang

Great, teach the kids by forbidding any communications from politicians.//

Luap Nor.

363 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:17:01pm

re: #290 TheMatrix31

That's the most important thing. We're all sick of this fuckin' guy already.

We?

Speak for yourself. However, if given the chance I would suggest to President Obama that he drops the Navy Blue suits with the light blue or medium red ties. I'd rather he dressed in season, which for now would be something much lighter - think Ricardo Montalban. Or, he could go more traditional African and wear a strong color. Either way, much better than blue on Navy blue.

364 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:18:22pm

re: #341 OldLineTexan

Call him NOW and read to him from Newsweek, just to check.

That's funny, he always read mine when he was home, maybe I better get him a gift subscription.

365 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:18:29pm

The children! Won't somebody please think about the Children!!

366 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:18:34pm

re: #363 freetoken

How about a nice 3 piece suit made of Rich Corinthian Leather

367 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:18:42pm

re: #355 BenZ's Bat

If I want my kids to be inspired by a "hero" I'll make sue they see a "hero." For example an astronaut, firefighter/police/ems, doctor, even a stockbroker. I don't want politicians talking at my kids. Period.

Hmmm...that might make for an awkward moment at their high school graduation.

368 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:18:54pm

re: #356 Charles

"Piu nemeche piu honore."

The more enemies you have, the more honor you have.

or you could just as well say it:

The more honor you have the more enemies.

Italian. I hope I spelled it correctly.

369 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:18:56pm

re: #354 Mich-again

Thank you for volunteering & trying to help!

370 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:18:58pm

It's deja vu all over again

1991: DEMS BLAST BUSH 41 SCHOOL SPEECH
From the Washington Post, published Friday, October 4, 1991: Democrats assailed the Bush Administration today for spending $26,750 in taxpayer money to hire a production company that oversaw President Bush's telecast from an eighth-grade classroom here to schoolchildren around the country on Tuesday. The money came from the Education Department's salary and expense budget. As a result, Representative William D. Ford, the Michigan Democrat who heads the House Education and Labor Committee, demanded that Education Secretary Lamar Alexander appear before the committee to defend his "spending scarce education dollars to produce a media event." And the House majority leader, Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri, said, "The Department of Education should not be producing paid political advertising for the President." The President's spokesman, Marlin Fitzwater, responded by denying that Mr. Bush's talk to the schoolchildren had been a political event and calling the criticism "nonsense."


Funding of Bush Speech Draws Fire; Democrat Calls Education Broadcast Paid Political Advertising'

Those darn Democrats are stoopid, unhinged, crazy, overreacting and paranoid! He just wanted to talk to the kiddies and tell them to study hard, avoid drugs and turn in troublemakers.

Looks like it's the Republicans turn now.

My 3rd grader will see it. They sent home a permission slip in his backpack. My senior said he will watch it as well. I think they will both survive.

Of course, all Obama will have to do is "activate" them at a later date...bwwwahhhahahaaa

371 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:19:03pm

re: #342 BenZ's Bat

They wouldn't even let you clap the erasers? That's jacked up.

372 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:19:56pm
373 irongrampa  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:20:04pm

re: #365 marjoriemoon

Good evening, MM, nice to see you.

374 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:20:06pm

re: #363 freetoken

We?

Speak for yourself. However, if given the chance I would suggest to President Obama that he drops the Navy Blue suits with the light blue or medium red ties. I'd rather he dressed in season, which for now would be something much lighter - think Ricardo Montalban. Or, he could go more traditional African and wear a strong color. Either way, much better than blue on Navy blue.

Well, I think he's overexposed. Seems like that's pretty clear. It's what happened with Brett Favre. Seeing that fucker's face and hearing about him every two seconds while my TV is tuned to ESPN made me hate the guy even more. Both attention whores, both overexposed.

375 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:20:20pm

Why shouldn't American kids listen to a speech from our President? Why should they respect the office and the man holding it? What happened to the right's sense of patriotism?

376 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:20:21pm

re: #346 Ojoe

Towercam view of the San Gabriel Mountains on fire. It is darker now, so the fire shows up more

Has the fire moved away or the wind shifted? It looks "better" today...not that flames shooting into the sky could ever be good in that neighborhood.

377 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:19pm

re: #370 Desert Dog

It's deja vu all over again

What you fail to understand is that it's ok for a Democrat to talk to little children... Even if he is NOT the kind of man you want your daughter to hang out with...

When a Republican does it, it's not...

Once you understand that fact of life then all becomes clear.

378 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:29pm

re: #374 TheMatrix31

The president is overexposed? Exposure is part of his frickin' job.

379 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:30pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Why shouldn't American kids listen to a speech from our President? Why should they respect the office and the man holding it? What happened to the right's sense of patriotism?

It's still there, Killgore. Don't worry.

380 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:41pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Why shouldn't American kids listen to a speech from our President? Why should they respect the office and the man holding it? What happened to the right's sense of patriotism?

Old school Kilgore, old school...

/

381 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:46pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Why shouldn't American kids listen to a speech from our President? Why should they respect the office and the man holding it? What happened to the right's sense of patriotism?

They forgot about it when Obama took office.

/I wish I was kidding

382 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:47pm

re: #372 BenZ's Bat

I didn't say that the POTUS wasn't anything special and to others I also didn't say that I didn't want my kids to learn about politics I just don't want them to learn it from a politician. I want my kids to learn political history and form ideas for themselves of what works and what doesn't. That is not being taught in schools today.

Waffle.

383 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:47pm

re: #372 BenZ's Bat

I didn't say that the POTUS wasn't anything special and to others I also didn't say that I didn't want my kids to learn about politics I just don't want them to learn it from a politician. I want my kids to learn political history and form ideas for themselves of what works and what doesn't. That is not being taught in schools today.

That makes sense. We don't need kids learning about public policy from actual public policymakers.

384 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:48pm

re: #373 irongrampa

Good evening, MM, nice to see you.

Hiyas Iron! What's shakin?!

385 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:21:57pm

re: #372 BenZ's Bat

No- I think it's great when kids get opportunities to meet their own elected officials. You can't teach kids about the system without exposing them to the people the system elects.

386 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:22:49pm

I don't understand this hate mail thing. it is like that Muslim hate mail. Bizarre.

387 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:22:52pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

What happened to the right's sense of patriotism?


Give me a break.

388 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:03pm

Just looking at Ojoe's link. I hope California gets some rain soon.

389 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:11pm

re: #378 Coracle

The president is overexposed? Exposure is part of his frickin' job.

Obama is on television in the United States more than Hugo Chavez is in Venesuela...

390 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:20pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

What happened to the right's sense of patriotism?

They figure the most overt display of patriotism is to paint the current POTUS as a commie, and fight him with their last breath; that commie POTUS and his death panels.

391 Born Again Republican  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:23pm

Nothing happens in a vacuum and people's reaction to his speech to the kids is a born from how he's been treating the American people. Here's Charles Krauthammer opinion on Obama that I feels lead up to people mistrust of the man.

Obama the Mortal

392 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:35pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

So dissenting isn't patriotic anymore, KT?

393 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:41pm

re: #378 Coracle

The president is overexposed? Exposure is part of his frickin' job.

Yes. Exposure is. OVERexposure is not.

394 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:41pm

re: #389 DrNaughty

Obama is on television in the United States more than Hugo Chavez is in Venesuela...

Stat link?

395 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:50pm

re: #381 Dark_Falcon

They forgot about it when Obama took office.

/I wish I was kidding

Used to be there was always a portrait of the current president in class. Didn't matter what side of the aisle he was from. For the most part, especially in our younger years, we didn't even give ideology or politics much thought. It was just the president that we admired and the country.

396 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:23:57pm

re: #389 DrNaughty

Obama is on television in the United States more than Hugo Chavez is in Venesuela...

Better he should spend the better half of his term on vacation maybe?

397 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:24:06pm

re: #393 TheMatrix31

Yes. Exposure is. OVERexposure is not.

As defined by his detractors?

398 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:24:28pm

re: #392 Fenway_Nation

So dissenting isn't patriotic anymore, KT?

LMFAO.

399 pat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:10pm

re: #389 DrNaughty

He is over exposed, vapid, and becoming very uninspiring. Should be perfect for the sith grade. The rest of us are weary. Or exactly 58% of us are weary.

400 annar  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:17pm

re: #294 Charles

Yeah! Now you're talking! That would be great!

Bobby Jindal ends his address by biting off Nancy Pelosi's pinky!

Must-see TV!

That should be the other way around but in either case not everyone likes steak tartar.

401 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:20pm

re: #376 Desert Dog

The fire crews did a lot of backfiring around the observatory & the communications antennae, so the fire is definitely away from the Towercam.

Actually, fire is part of the ecosystem of the mountains there, so it is "good". Just keep out of the way of it.

402 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:21pm

re: #396 marjoriemoon

Better he should spend the better half of his term on vacation maybe?

I'd love it if Obama decided just to move to Venezuela for the rest of his term. Joe Biden can't be worse...

403 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:22pm

re: #397 Coracle

As defined by his detractors?

Well that sure seems to be implied by the polls. When he gets off the TV, his numbers go up.

404 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:23pm

re: #397 Coracle

As defined by his detractors?

Uh, as defined by whoever feels he's overexposed.

405 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:24pm

re: #391 Born Again Republican

Nothing happens in a vacuum and people's reaction to his speech to the kids is a born from how he's been treating the American people. Here's Charles Krauthammer opinion on Obama that I feels lead up to people mistrust of the man.

Obama the Mortal

You have a point, but it is still a foolish thing to take issue with.

406 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:25:39pm

re: #393 TheMatrix31

Yes. Exposure is. OVERexposure is not.

Yeah! Lock that creep in the Oval Office and tell him to get to work. He has no business trying to inspire schoolchildren. Who does he think he is??!

407 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:26:03pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Why shouldn't American kids listen to a speech from our President? Why should they respect the office and the man holding it? What happened to the right's sense of patriotism?

Rules for Radicals- 2.0 Right Wing Version

408 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:26:12pm

re: #402 DrNaughty

I'd love it if Obama decided just to move to Venezuela for the rest of his term. Joe Biden can't be worse...

I've said it a thousand times --

I'd rather have Biden for 20 years than Obama for 4. No one takes Biden seriously, some people still take Obama seriously.

409 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:26:23pm

re: #406 Charles

Yeah! Lock that creep in the Oval Office and tell him to get to work. He has no business trying to inspire schoolchildren. Who does he think he is??!

Did I SAY that?

410 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:26:28pm

re: #391 Born Again Republican
VDH seems to have moved beyond the pleasantries as well.

[Link: www.victorhanson.com...]

411 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:26:51pm

re: #406 Charles

Yeah! Lock that creep in the Oval Office and tell him to get to work. He has no business trying to inspire schoolchildren. Who does he think he is??!

The more Obama works, the worse we all are because of it...

412 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:27:14pm

re: #406 Charles

Yeah! Lock that creep in the Oval Office and tell him to get to work. He has no business trying to inspire schoolchildren. Who does he think he is??!

Considering I'm referring to all his stupid primetime press conferences, and seeing his shirts at Macy's, etc.

413 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:27:20pm

re: #322 Sharmuta

This "boycott" or whatever of the President's speech is an embodiment of the "not my president" principle, which I recall the right didn't appreciate from the other side of the aisle, but seems we're all to willing to behave in a similar fashion when it suits our needs. But I think it sends other signals, too.

I think it's a bad message to send to children that the President isn't worth listening to. We have enough of an issue with people not paying attention to current events and politics- we shouldn't be encouraging this. It's also important that children learn civic responsibility- that we have the right to speech and what that means. This actually is a teachable moment.

Parents who don't like Obama should still allow the discourse to proceed. Give the man the floor, and talk to your children about your political principles later after school. It's the American thing to do.

I don't care if he comes out against ObamaCare and de-nationalizes GM. It's not the content that matters. It's the precedent.

414 Killian Bundy  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:27:26pm

re: #341 OldLineTexan

Call him NOW and read to him from Newsweek, just to check.

Here's an article.

What Green Jobs?

Washington is spending $60 billion to create the careers of the future, but not a single green job yet exists. Obama's 'green czar' explains.

President Obama devoted nearly $60 billion of his stimulus package to building a new green-based economy rich in renewable energy and strategies to cut carbon. But despite the price tag, not one green job yet exists. It comes down to a problem of etymology. No one can yet agree on what a green job actually is. The working definition paints a broad stroke: a job that's good for the economy while simultaneously healing the earth. But that leaves lots open to interpretation—natural gas is technically a cleaner fuel than crude oil, but it's still unsustainable—making it difficult, if not impossible, to measure whether eco-based jobs are being created and whether, as the administration has claimed, they're the saviors of a sagging economy

. . .

Why are we still without an objective definition of a green job?

Well, we still don't have a unified definition, and that's not unusual in a democracy. It takes a while for all the states and the federal government to come to some agreement. But the Department of Labor is working on it very diligently. Fundamentally, it's getting there, but we haven't crossed the finish line yet.

/in other words, it's all just so much ObamaWorld bull[expletive deleted]

415 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:27:45pm

re: #407 Sharmuta

Rules for Radicals- 2.0 Right Wing Version

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

416 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:27:50pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Respect for the office (& for the man as far as possible) will certainly help some get through the next 3. 5 years.

417 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:28:01pm

re: #401 Ojoe

The fire crews did a lot of backfiring around the observatory & the communications antennae, so the fire is definitely away from the Towercam.

Actually, fire is part of the ecosystem of the mountains there, so it is "good". Just keep out of the way of it.

Everyone was worried about you and the cam the other day. I am glad it made it! (you too, of course)

418 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:28:14pm
419 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:29:07pm

re: #403 esch

Well that sure seems to be implied by the polls. When he gets off the TV, his numbers go up.

I'm not sure if that's the case, but his numbers are going up again, perhaps some backlash to what had been a successful attack from the right, or your idea could be correct.

420 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:29:14pm

re: #411 DrNaughty

The more Obama works, the worse we all are because of it...

Yeah, forget what I said about getting to work! He should just resign immediately and turn this school address into an extended apology, ending in a complete breakdown in tears and sobbing incoherence.

Now that would be a way to get the GOP on board! Why doesn't he do this instead? What's wrong with him?

421 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:29:30pm

re: #417 Desert Dog

Hey I grew up close to Mt. Wilson but now I live about 550 miles away!

Thanks ...

422 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:29:52pm

Note to Naso Tang and Freetoken:

Post 406 is sarcasm.
Repeat.
406 is sarcasm.

423 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:29:59pm

re: #413 haakondahl

I don't care if he comes out against ObamaCare and de-nationalizes GM. It's not the content that matters. It's the precedent.

What precedent ??

424 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:30:05pm

re: #421 Ojoe

Hey I grew up close to Mt. Wilson but now I live about 550 miles away!

Thanks ...

That would be a REALLY bad fire then! lol

425 Born Again Republican  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:30:18pm

re: #405 Dark_Falcon

You have a point, but it is still a foolish thing to take issue with.

His timing is terrible. He has no sense for the mood of the public. I'm upset by it all. I hated Bush being treated with such disrespect.

426 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:30:55pm

I pledge allegiance to the man
in the whitest house in America.
Against the Republicans we make a stand
One Nation Moveing On,
With record debts and health care for all.

427 horse  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:31:25pm

re: #385 Sharmuta

No- I think it's great when kids get opportunities to meet their own elected officials. You can't teach kids about the system without exposing them to the people the system elects.

Agreed, with the caveat they please select ones who are not on the extremes with radical beliefs or statements in the paper, or under investigation for likely corruption. If the kids realize afterward they actually met with a crook or a crazy they might become a little jaded. Pick some nice uncorrupted main stream politicians.

428 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:31:46pm

re: #425 Born Again Republican

His timing is terrible. He has no sense for the mood of the public. I'm upset by it all. I hated Bush being treated with such disrespect.

Yeah! Terrible timing! How dare he think it's appropriate to address children on the first day of school! The monster!

429 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:31:59pm

re: #425 Born Again Republican

His timing is terrible. He has no sense for the mood of the public. I'm upset by it all. I hated Bush being treated with such disrespect.

He's doing a back to school speech. When should he give it, December?

/sarc

430 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:32:46pm

re: #428 Charles

Yeah! Terrible timing! How dare he think it's appropriate to address children on the first day of school! The monster!

Ha, The first day of school is mass confusion. This will help settle things.

431 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:32:50pm

OT: Today at the library I picked up Stephen Jay Gould and the Politics of Evolution- but there aren't any customer reviews at Amazon. Have any of the science fans read this yet and if so, any thoughts?

432 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:33:12pm

**sigh**

433 irongrampa  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:33:19pm

re: #384 marjoriemoon

life's good, overall, how's by you?

434 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:33:23pm

re: #350 Killgore Trout

He did do it, so did Reagan. Probably Clinton too. This is nothing new. It's like people have never been to this planet before.

Are you talking about President Reagan taking a moment in the Challenger speech to address children? Or about President Buch speaking briefly to kids in the wake of 9/11? If so, you're drawing a pathetically false parallel.

We're not talking about a field trip or a book-reading or a few moments carved off of some larger speech to the nation as a whole.

This is the modern technology of mass communications in the service of the state, bypassing parents to go straight to kids.

435 Born Again Republican  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:33:43pm

re: #428 Charles

Yeah! Terrible timing! How dare he think it's appropriate to address children on the first day of school! The monster!

After he insults the parents he decides he wants to give their children some wise words. He's gonna get flak.

436 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:33:47pm

re: #431 Sharmuta

OT: Today at the library I picked up Stephen Jay Gould and the Politics of Evolution- but there aren't any customer reviews at Amazon. Have any of the science fans read this yet and if so, any thoughts?

Evolution!?! What are you, a commie?

437 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:33:49pm

re: #422 swamprat

Note to Naso Tang and Freetoken:

Post 406 is sarcasm.
Repeat.
406 is sarcasm.

Which one of yours was a failed attempt at that, other than this one?

438 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:33:56pm

re: #433 irongrampa

Howe's Bayou

439 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:34:05pm

re: #429 Dark_Falcon

He's doing a back to school speech. When should he give it, December?

/sarc

the day before yesterday...

440 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:34:18pm

re: #415 Gus 802

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

Exactly.

441 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:34:28pm

re: #388 Noam Sayin'

Late October, is the earliest we can expect.
Thanks, for the good wishes!

442 irongrampa  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:35:08pm

re: #438 Ojoe

That caused actual physical pain.

443 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:35:19pm

I went on a field trip with one of my kids to the capitol with class last year. We were met by of our senators and given a tour of his offices and a talk about government. This particular senator is not terribly centrist, but not terrible far on a wing. You know what he talked about? Government and how it works. Process and what it means, and the skills needed to to the job. You wouldn't even know what party he was from. I'll bet you money 90 congresscritters out of 100 would be like that, on either side of the aisle.

444 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:35:38pm
445 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:35:47pm

re: #442 irongrampa

I wonder if there really is a place named that.

446 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:35:53pm

re: #436 Charles

Evolution!?! What are you, a commie?

You're quite animated this Friday night..

447 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:36:29pm

re: #433 irongrampa

life's good, overall, how's by you?

Good to hear it. Not too shabby here. Healthy and employed here :) Good to see you among the living.

What did you mean up thread that your daughter decided to opt out? Does she go to school where he's speaking?

448 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:36:30pm

. re: #412 TheMatrix31

Considering I'm referring to all his stupid primetime press conferences, and seeing his shirts at Macy's, etc.

Obama's shirts are at Macy's? For real?

449 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:36:43pm

re: #419 avanti

Agreed it's not a one-to-one correlation. I wrote poorly. It does imply that he needs to dump the 'magic' and focus on the drudgery for a while. Establish administrative credentials

450 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:36:53pm

re: #434 haakondahl

Are you talking about President Reagan taking a moment in the Challenger speech to address children? Or about President Buch speaking briefly to kids in the wake of 9/11? If so, you're drawing a pathetically false parallel.

We're not talking about a field trip or a book-reading or a few moments carved off of some larger speech to the nation as a whole.

This is the modern technology of mass communications in the service of the state, bypassing parents to go straight to kids.

The moment you send kids off to school you are "bypassing parents." As a society we do this because we trust the intentions of eduction professionals. While at school they are influenced by dozens of individuals each bypassing the parents for 5 days a week. The only other alternative would be home schooling to prevent outside influences.

451 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:37:07pm

re: #420 Charles

OK, I just spit wine all over my monitor!
WHAT A VISION!
Going off for the towels, now...

452 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:37:07pm

re: #436 Charles

Evolution!?! What are you, a commie?

I must be- I picked up two books on it.

453 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:37:11pm

re: #446 cliffster

You're quite animated this Friday night..

Commie!

454 varnish  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:37:26pm

Charles - I am out of here.

455 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:37:32pm

princetrumpet, Are you attempting suicide by downding?

456 tradewind  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:37:39pm

Betting that this conclusion is spot on. Question is, what's gonna be the crisis?
I can think of a few candidates without even entering the Conspiracy Zone...
[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

457 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:37:45pm

re: #450 Gus 802

The moment you send kids off to school you are "bypassing parents." As a society we do this because we trust the intentions of eduction professionals. While at school they are influenced by dozens of individuals each bypassing the parents for 5 days a week. The only other alternative would be home schooling to prevent outside influences.

This is why we need school vouchers to get the kids out of government indoctrination centers...

458 horse  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:01pm

re: #454 varnish

Doesn't look like you were ever in here.

459 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:02pm

re: #448 SanFranciscoZionist

.

Obama's shirts are at Macy's? For real?

Pretty sure I heard one of my friends who works at Macy's say that. I've yet to verify that myself.

460 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:03pm

re: #454 varnish

varnish

Registered since: Mar 13, 2009 at 2:42 pm
No. of comments posted: 3
No. of links posted: 0

You'll be sorely missed.

461 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:06pm

re: #446 cliffster

You're quite animated this Friday night..

This tupid issue has Charles on tilt. He's decided to fight it with mockery, which no more than what it deserves. Bad Craziness deserves Thorzine, not respect.

462 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:13pm

re: #454 varnish

Is that a flounce?

A flounce of prevention?

463 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:15pm

re: #418 BenZ's Bat

When did learning about policy require the policy maker to be present. I learned fine about public policy without ever once talking to a politician.

I participated in student congress, model UN, etc and elected officials regularly talked to us about our work and how it related to what they did everyday. These interactions inspired me to become even more politically engaged.

464 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:16pm

re: #454 varnish

Charles - I am out of here.

You have no idea how much that hurts me.

465 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:21pm

re: #454 varnish

Mini-flouncing?

466 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:25pm

re: #450 Gus 802

The moment you send kids off to school you are "bypassing parents." As a society we do this because we trust the intentions of eduction professionals. While at school they are influenced by dozens of individuals each bypassing the parents for 5 days a week. The only other alternative would be home schooling to prevent outside influences.

Please do not equate school with government, or teachers with politicians. I know that the line is blurry sometimes, but this is a bad thing, not good, so let's have less of it, not more.

467 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:38:38pm

re: #420 Charles

Yeah, forget what I said about getting to work! He should just resign immediately and turn this school address into an extended apology, ending in a complete breakdown in tears and sobbing incoherence.

Now that would be a way to get the GOP on board! Why doesn't he do this instead? What's wrong with him?

Charles, I sense some exasperation from you this evening, it's nuts out right now, but maybe it will get better. Do you see any moderate voices on the right that might speak out for the good of the real conservatives ?

I'm a liberal, but I want a counter balance on the right that's sane. We have enough moon bats on the left I have to deal with, without the right getting more.

468 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:39:08pm

re: #466 haakondahl

Please do not equate school with government, or teachers with politicians. I know that the line is blurry sometimes, but this is a bad thing, not good, so let's have less of it, not more.

What entity operates 95% of schools in the United States ?

469 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:39:20pm

And with all this attention, even if the President had planned to say something Obamassiahish, now he will definitely give a completely innocuous speech - encouraging kids to do their homework and stay in school - and in the process make his detractors look even more ridiculous.

Come to think of it, that is kind of an Alinskyish tactic, isn't it?

470 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:39:31pm

re: #467 avanti

Hey join the Whigs like I did

471 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:39:33pm

re: #431 Sharmuta

Not read it ... and given my time and reading list it is unlikely I ever will.

I will note however a contemporary controversy: apparently Sean Carroll and Carl Zimmer have both flounced off of blogginheads.tv because Bob Wright had as a guest one Saturday a creationist.

Which is too bad, as Carroll and Zimmer had the best science discussions on that website.

472 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:39:50pm

re: #465 marjoriemoon

Some people have to pay to be flounced.

473 ShanghaiEd  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:11pm

re: #149 pink freud

That's where the messages of social justice and collectivism come in. Doesn't belong in the schools.

Isn't social justice a recurring theme in the Bible, and many other major works of literature?

Amos 5:24: "But let justice roll down like waters; and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream."

The lack of social justice is social injustice. What person of good will supports social injustice?

474 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:22pm

The speech to the kids doesn't phase me. What could it hurt? It's the speech at the Capitol the next day I want to see. Normally, the President only does that for the State of the Union, or when there has been an "event" of magnitude or if there is a pressing need to do so. He is speaking to a joint session of Congress over a partisan healthcare bill that they have already said they will pass with or without the GOP.

I want to see a split screen of both sides. One side will be cheering every word and standing up like it's a rock concert. The other will be sitting on their hands so hard, they will be turning red.

That is the Obama effect. Bush had a polarizing effect, so did Clinton, heck almost every President has it...Obama has it pretty bad right now though. So much for the "there is no Red States or Blue States, only the United States" line from the campaign. The two sides have rarely been this divided and it's only going to get worse, IMHO.

475 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:28pm

re: #453 Charles

You're running fast and loose with that term. You better watch you don't get put on some list./

476 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:29pm

re: #469 Ringo the Gringo

And with all this attention, even if the President had planned to say something Obamassiahish, now he will definitely give a completely innocuous speech - encouraging kids to do their homework and stay in school - and in the process make his detractors look even more ridiculous.

Come to think of it, that is kind of an Alinskyish tactic, isn't it?

Once the teaching materials were "toned down", it defeated the entire indoctrination...

477 irongrampa  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:29pm

re: #447 marjoriemoon

No, I meant that oldest daughter decided instead of having both kids listen to obama, she decided to take them on a small field trip, to see some actual American people who worked to ensure this country grew and prospered. All available at our local museum.

478 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:30pm

re: #437 Naso Tang


Does it matter?

I mean really.

you see "the nun ducked"
so she didn't
"walk into the bar"

by the time you get there, the moment is gone.

479 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:30pm

I recall an episode from a book by Dan Savage (yes, the sex-advice columnist), where he describes repeating one of his mother's jokes about Nixon at the dinner table in front of his father.

"Damn it Judy," his father yells. "I don't like him either, but he is the president, and we should teach our children respect."

Long time ago, I suppose.

480 Edgesitter  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:35pm

But we all KNOW that Obama will make the children into left wing zombies with a short talk /s

481 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:43pm

re: #466 haakondahl

Please do not equate school with government, or teachers with politicians. I know that the line is blurry sometimes, but this is a bad thing, not good, so let's have less of it, not more.

I was focusing on the idea of bypassing parents. It doesn't have to apply to public or "government" schools. This happens in privates schools. If people think that having kids watch the president for less than one hour is "bypassing the parents" then what are those kids doing outside of the parents influence in the first place?

482 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:47pm

re: #436 Charles

I wonder what would happen if President Obama started to speak about evolution in his students address?

483 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:54pm

Getting late. Goodnight.

484 nightlight  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:40:59pm

I haven't seen this brought up anywhere except Fox's web site -- about Federal statute/legality of Dept of Ed providing curriculum.

(If there is a Federal statute denying the DOE, then why are they re-writing activity suggestions?)


Christina Erland Culver, former deputy assistant secretary for education, said presidents have traditionally addressed classrooms on the first day of school, but the problem with the event was the accompanying materials from the Department of Education.

"That's where they kind of got into a slippery spot. Federal statute denies any authority to the Department of Education to provide any kind of curriculum or anything that can be passed down to the state, and that's part of the statute forming the Department of Education. So they kinda got themselves into this mess because they didn't really understand some of the key legal roles or the dos and don'ts at the federal Department of Ed," she said.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

A White House blog posted Thursday, accompanied by two Web videos on the importance of education, said Obama would use his address to "urge students to take personal responsibility for their own education."

485 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:41:39pm

re: #381 Dark_Falcon

They forgot about it when Obama took office.

/I wish I was kidding

I'm afraid you're right correct. I'm still surprised how shallow that sense of patriotism was that I saw a few years ago. Live and learn I suppose.

486 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:41:48pm

re: #465 marjoriemoon

If a lurker flounces after posting 3 comments in six months, does it make a sound?

487 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:41:50pm

re: #453 Charles

Commie!

I'd better go drive off a cliff. Better dead than red!

488 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:42:08pm

re: #459 TheMatrix31

Pretty sure I heard one of my friends who works at Macy's say that. I've yet to verify that myself.

Now I want to go to Macy's and check this out.

489 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:42:20pm

re: #482 freetoken

Rev Wright would kick his ass

490 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:42:24pm

re: #482 freetoken

I wonder what would happen if President Obama started to speak about evolution in his students address?

Pandemonium would ensue!

491 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:42:24pm

re: #482 freetoken

I wonder what would happen if President Obama started to speak about evolution in his students address?

Some guy started talking about it at my friend's college graduation. Like, regardless of opinion, what the fuck does that have to do with ANYTHING in connection to a college graduation?

492 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:42:29pm

re: #484 nightlight

There you go! Let's sue the bastard! How dare he think he can talk to America's children??!

493 tradewind  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:42:37pm

re: #428 Charles

IMO, his mistake is not so much in the timing, of the speech, but in the timing of the announcement of the speech. .Way too much lead time, way too much fanfare and ' Hey, I'm gonna talk to the school children of America ' So he wants to address the kids. Fine. Why all the hoo-hah? Why all the drumrolls? Just pick a time and a TelePrompter , give the nets a few days notice, and talk to them. We're all watching, Barack. No need to send out flyers and advance men to make sure.

494 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:42:47pm

re: #454 varnish

Bwahahahaha!

Thanks for your memorable contributions.

All three of them.

495 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:43:19pm

re: #477 irongrampa

No, I meant that oldest daughter decided instead of having both kids listen to obama, she decided to take them on a small field trip, to see some actual American people who worked to ensure this country grew and prospered. All available at our local museum.

Well she can do that anytime. I don't know why you wouldn't want your kids to hear an historic speech. I think the lesson of listening, even if you don't agree, is a good one.

496 tradewind  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:43:24pm

re: #464 Charles

Guess varnish got shellacked.

497 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:43:29pm

Stupidity on one side. Sarcasm on the other. Extreme exaggeration for both.

498 jcm  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:43:37pm

Hackers have broken into the WH server and pirated Obama's speech to chillins'

Evenin' Honcos!

499 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:44:01pm
500 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:44:15pm

re: #493 tradewind

IMO, his mistake is not so much in the timing, of the speech, but in the timing of the announcement of the speech. .Way too much lead time, way too much fanfare and ' Hey, I'm gonna talk to the school children of America ' So he wants to address the kids. Fine. Why all the hoo-hah? Why all the drumrolls? Just pick a time and a TelePrompter , give the nets a few days notice, and talk to them. We're all watching, Barack. No need to send out flyers and advance men to make sure.

He did NOT announce anything. The GOP picked up a mention of it in a video interview with a kid (I posted it) and proceeded to do that fearmongering thing that they do so well.

It's a scorched earth policy and they don't care who gets hurt.

501 nightlight  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:44:25pm

re: #492 Charles

Charles, I don't think there is anything wrong with a POTUS talking to students, I'm not against this at all. I'm just curious about why the former deputy assistant secretary for education would talk about the "mess" they got themselves into here.

502 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:44:26pm

re: #494 Noam Sayin'

What will we do without varnish? The evening has lost its shine.

503 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:44:27pm

re: #493 tradewind

IMO, his mistake is not so much in the timing, of the speech, but in the timing of the announcement of the speech. .Way too much lead time, way too much fanfare and ' Hey, I'm gonna talk to the school children of America ' So he wants to address the kids. Fine. Why all the hoo-hah? Why all the drumrolls? Just pick a time and a TelePrompter , give the nets a few days notice, and talk to them. We're all watching, Barack. No need to send out flyers and advance men to make sure.

Or, he could announce it well in advance, and then sit back and watch while a quarter of the GOP starts crying like spoiled children.

504 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:44:37pm

re: #443 Coracle

I went on a field trip with one of my kids to the capitol with class last year. We were met by of our senators and given a tour of his offices and a talk about government. This particular senator is not terribly centrist, but not terrible far on a wing. You know what he talked about? Government and how it works. Process and what it means, and the skills needed to to the job. You wouldn't even know what party he was from. I'll bet you money 90 congresscritters out of 100 would be like that, on either side of the aisle.

In 1996, we wrote a letter to our then representative John Shaddegg and asked for a tour when our group went there. We were all shocked then the letter came back. We had the exact same experience. We had 12 children with us and to this day, I hear from some of them about that trip. The next day we went up to Gettysburg and I gave them the grand tour (I am a Civil War junkie). I wish every kid could go see how our government works.

505 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:44:47pm

re: #486 Fenway_Nation

If a lurker flounces after posting 3 comments in six months, does it make a sound?

LOL just a little teeny weeny sound.

I swear they sign up just to flounce and make a commotion amongst their Other friends.

506 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:44:56pm

For those who want to learn more about neo-nazis, I have this book on reserve:

Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement from the Margins to the Mainstream

507 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:45:49pm

I think Obama will deliver a great motivational speech. He always does very nice in speeches like that. Whatever. Its dumb to do it on the first day of school amidst all the confusion and hyper kids who aren't in school mode yet. His speech will be background noise in unruly rooms.

I do wonder what the teachers and their unions really think of the things Obama's friend Bill Ayers has said about the American public school system. He doesn't waste too many opportunities to point out what an utter failure it is. (of course his solution is less discipline and more freedom to explore mushy headed things besides math and science) Ayers has to know that assessment of complete failure can't be too pleasant to all those longtime teachers union dues paying diehard Democrats that have been and remain cogs in that failed machine their entire careers.

508 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:45:51pm

re: #450 Gus 802

The moment you send kids off to school you are "bypassing parents." As a society we do this because we trust the intentions of eduction professionals. While at school they are influenced by dozens of individuals each bypassing the parents for 5 days a week. The only other alternative would be home schooling to prevent outside influences.

I am quite comfortable with a series of decisions that have established that parents do *not* have a right to selectively absent their children from a wide range of school activities or topics, because it would make public school impossible. This is an example of something which appeals to me but which is more destructive than helpful in the aggregate, and so I am willing to let go.
After all, if we succeed in controlling and limiting the childhood experience, we fail to prepare our children for adulthood.
I hope I will be extended the courtesy of not being lumped in with whatever maniacs must surely abound in this, uh, "vigorous debate". I do not fear for a single child as a result of the President's speech, and I do not feel that anybody will be mesmerized, hypnotized or anything other than bored by the speech itself.
I object to this unwarranted line of communication being opened between children and the state, and it has nothing to do with any particular President. It is a necessary condition for totalitarianism, and I think we would rather do well to stop short *before* we find ourselves in extremis regarding tyranny. After all, this above all other things is the purpose of our very Constitution.

509 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:46:03pm

re: #500 Charles

He did NOT announce anything. The GOP picked up a mention of it in a video interview with a kid (I posted it) and proceeded to do that fearmongering thing that they do so well.

It's a scorched earth policy and they don't care who gets hurt.

If it wasn't for this manufactured controversy I would have never heard about it. I haven't even heard Obama speak about it to date. Another thing is that there a good possibility that he wasn't even the initiator of the idea.

510 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:46:19pm

re: #468 DrNaughty

What entity operates 95% of schools in the United States ?

Local school boards, Einstein.

511 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:46:21pm

re: #486 Fenway_Nation

Those are the kind that only flounce with the lights off.

512 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:46:24pm

re: #500 Charles

Really? Can you link to it here?

513 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:46:33pm

re: #485 Killgore Trout

I'm afraid you're right correct. I'm still surprised how shallow that sense of patriotism was that I saw a few years ago. Live and learn I suppose.

A lot of people, both sides of the aisle, are more loyal to their personal vision of America than to the real thing, warts and all.

514 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:46:48pm

re: #510 haakondahl

Local school boards, Einstein.

Government entities

515 altermite  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:46:59pm

re: #493 tradewind

IMO, his mistake is not so much in the timing, of the speech, but in the timing of the announcement of the speech. .Way too much lead time, way too much fanfare and ' Hey, I'm gonna talk to the school children of America ' So he wants to address the kids. Fine. Why all the hoo-hah? Why all the drumrolls? Just pick a time and a TelePrompter , give the nets a few days notice, and talk to them. We're all watching, Barack. No need to send out flyers and advance men to make sure.

What fanfare? They announced it ahead of time. all the fanfare was stirred up by idiots looking for reasons to object.

And it's considered courteous to give schools a warning before asking them to encorporate a new plan for a day.

516 horse  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:47:00pm

re: #350 Killgore Trout

He did do it, so did Reagan. Probably Clinton too. This is nothing new. It's like people have never been to this planet before.

What, this isn't the planet of eptesicus merda insanus? Should of took that left at Albuquerque.

517 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:47:22pm

re: #501 nightlight

Charles, I don't think there is anything wrong with a POTUS talking to students, I'm not against this at all. I'm just curious about why the former deputy assistant secretary for education would talk about the "mess" they got themselves into here.

Let's see how this goes.

The GOP indulges in blatant fearmongering over a completely innocuous speech that will urge children to stay in school and work hard.

Millions of people swallow the bait and start screaming that they're going to pull their kids out of school.

Some Obama officials start getting cold feet because of the political heat.

Victory! We won! They're BACKING DOWN!

We saved America!

518 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:47:38pm

re: #479 SanFranciscoZionist

Today's world, is a lesser place, IMHO, because of lack of rescect for many things!

519 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:48:07pm

re: #517 Charles

Let's see how this goes.

The GOP indulges in blatant fearmongering over a completely innocuous speech that will urge children to stay in school and work hard.

Millions of people swallow the bait and start screaming that they're going to pull their kids out of school.

Some Obama officials start getting cold feet because of the political heat.

Victory! We won! They're BACKING DOWN!

We save America!

Personally, the less we hear from Obama the more we can believe what he is saying...

520 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:48:19pm

re: #506 Sharmuta

For those who want to learn more about neo-nazis, I have this book on reserve:

Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement from the Margins to the Mainstream

I've been keeping an eye on that one. I'll have to pick it up sometime soon.

521 sngnsgt  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:48:58pm

re: #294 Charles

Now that I'd pay to see!

522 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:48:59pm

Boy, I'm sure going to enjoy going out for drinks tonight.

523 HypnoToad  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:48:59pm

Everyone shall relax...

The proper Message will be delivered in the speech to the children...

I will be in the podium behind the seal...

All Glory to the...

524 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:49:02pm

re: #499 BenZ's Bat

If your going to teach civics, government, politics to kids- you're going to have to expose them to politicians. It's a bit silly to think kids aren't aware- ever hear of the Weekly Reader polls? Kids vote on Nickelodeon too- come on.

I can't help but think this wouldn't be an issue for you if President Bush were to speak at your kid's school.

525 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:49:02pm

re: #519 DrNaughty

Personally, the less we hear from Obama the more we can believe what he is saying...

Right. He should just shut up and get out of the way.

526 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:49:31pm

re: #520 Killgore Trout

I thought it would be up your alley.

527 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:49:40pm

re: #525 Coracle

Right. He should just shut up and get out of the way.

Resign and leave quietly...

528 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:49:44pm

re: #484 nightlight

I haven't seen this brought up anywhere except Fox's web site -- about Federal statute/legality of Dept of Ed providing curriculum.

(If there is a Federal statute denying the DOE, then why are they re-writing activity suggestions?)


Christina Erland Culver, former deputy assistant secretary for education, said presidents have traditionally addressed classrooms on the first day of school, but the problem with the event was the accompanying materials from the Department of Education.

"That's where they kind of got into a slippery spot. Federal statute denies any authority to the Department of Education to provide any kind of curriculum or anything that can be passed down to the state, and that's part of the statute forming the Department of Education. So they kinda got themselves into this mess because they didn't really understand some of the key legal roles or the dos and don'ts at the federal Department of Ed," she said.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

A White House blog posted Thursday, accompanied by two Web videos on the importance of education, said Obama would use his address to "urge students to take personal responsibility for their own education."

There are all kinds of teaching resources linked at the DoE. Look at [Link: www.free.ed.gov...]

529 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:50:07pm

re: #482 freetoken

I wonder what would happen if President Obama started to speak about evolution in his students address?

The flouncing would generate tsunamis.

530 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:50:13pm

re: #528 SanFranciscoZionist

There are all kinds of teaching resources linked at the DoE. Look at [Link: www.free.ed.gov...]

Government indoctrination documents...

531 HypnoToad  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:50:38pm

Actually, the kids will probably forget most of it after the first recess.

532 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:50:45pm

re: #527 DrNaughty

Resign and leave quietly...

Yeah! What's wrong with him? Doesn't he realize that he has no business trying to do anything at all? Resign already, monster! And stay away from my kids!

533 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:50:50pm

re: #527 DrNaughty

Resign and leave quietly...

That would make things so much better.

534 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:50:52pm

re: #523 HypnoToad

Everyone shall relax...

The proper Message will be delivered in the speech to the children...

I will be in the podium behind the seal...

All Glory to the...

535 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:51:29pm

re: #517 Charles


We save America!

From Yahoo Answers:


How do we save America from Obama?

Resolved Question:
How do we save America from Obama?
How do we do it?
7 months ago

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

Pray, and protect your kids from the socialist ideals that are being rammed down their heads in school. Teach them values and hard work.
Vote for a real American in 2012
7 months ago

536 irongrampa  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:51:31pm

re: #531 HypnoToad

Bet a donut it won't even take THAT long.

537 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:51:46pm

re: #532 Charles

Yeah! What's wrong with him? Doesn't he realize that he has no business trying to do anything at all? Resign already, monster! And stay away from my kids!

What has Obama accomplished besides empty our national treasury and aplogize to the world how evil our nation has been until he came into office ?

538 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:52:02pm

Hysteria is not traditionally a conservative value. I don't like this innovation.

539 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:52:32pm

re: #538 jaunte

Hysteria is not traditionally a conservative value. I don't like this innovation.

It's not very Buckley, is it?

540 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:52:34pm

re: #532 Charles

Yeah! What's wrong with him? Doesn't he realize that he has no business trying to do anything at all? Resign already, monster! And stay away from my kids!

Glad you're having fun with this!

541 jcm  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:52:52pm

A 20 minute speech

or

18 years of education inspired by Ayers, Zinn and Chompsky.

A lot of sound and fury over former, but quiet acquiescence to later.

*spit*

542 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:52:56pm

re: #538 jaunte

Hysteria is not traditionally a conservative value. I don't like this innovation.

There is nothing hysterical about protecting our children from charlatans and peole of low moral character...

543 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:52:56pm

re: #517 Charles

Let's see how this goes.

The GOP indulges in blatant fearmongering over a completely innocuous speech that will urge children to stay in school and work hard.

Millions of people swallow the bait and start screaming that they're going to pull their kids out of school.

Some Obama officials start getting cold feet because of the political heat.

Victory! We won! They're BACKING DOWN!

We saved America!

Just to be clear, Christina Erland Culver, is a former deputy assistant secretary for education and she made the mess statement.

544 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:53:14pm

re: #507 Mich-again

I think Obama will deliver a great motivational speech. He always does very nice in speeches like that. Whatever. Its dumb to do it on the first day of school amidst all the confusion and hyper kids who aren't in school mode yet. His speech will be background noise in unruly rooms.

I do wonder what the teachers and their unions really think of the things Obama's friend Bill Ayers has said about the American public school system. He doesn't waste too many opportunities to point out what an utter failure it is. (of course his solution is less discipline and more freedom to explore mushy headed things besides math and science)

I think Bill Ayers is right up there with Erin Gruwell on the list of people I'm not going to ask to tell me how to run my classroom. And Obama has ticked me off fierce a time or two with his mindless echoing of 'blame the teachers'--he doesn't get that from Ayers, it's just in the water.

545 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:53:40pm

re: #499 BenZ's Bat

But the difference is that you and the group of students that you were working with invited this as part of your experience. The Pols you spoke to didn't try to bypass your parents by interjecting (regardless of the message) into the schools where they have no business being. What you did was part of a learning process that you chose. I understand that it is being left up to the schools (who in most cases are allowing parents to opt their children out) on whether or not students will be seeing this broadcast and I commend the schools for that. I object to a pol. injecting himself where has no right to be (again regardless of the message or his personal politics).

I didn't get to choose my graduation speaker (a politician) and no parents were consulted when those arrangements were made. I don't remember any parents being upset about the speaker being there even though he was a rather polarizing public figure. But of course, no one was manufacturing outrage leading up to his remarks so they may have forgot that they were supposed to take exception to his being allowed to speak.

546 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:54:22pm

re: #542 DrNaughty

Best keep them in a bubble, then. Politics is loose in the world.

547 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:54:22pm

re: #541 jcm

A 20 minute speech

or

18 years of education inspired by Ayers, Zinn and Chompsky.

A lot of sound and fury over former, but quiet acquiescence to later.

*spit*

I dont think anyone bitching about the 20 min speech (I'm not really either, not since they started changing it to keep it a more level type thing) were the ones ignoring the 18 years of ridiculous education.

548 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:54:41pm

The past couple of days have set an all-time record for hate mail. It's streaming in tonight like a firehose.

549 Nightlight  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:54:44pm

re: #528 SanFranciscoZionist

There are all kinds of teaching resources linked at the DoE. Look at [Link: www.free.ed.gov...]

Thanks. I'm looking over that.

I'm just trying to understand why she would call this a slippery spot.

550 tradewind  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:54:48pm

re: #500 Charles

Okay.
You mean the WH did not let the media know about the planned address? That's pretty interesting,,, they choreograph everything so carefully at Axelrod & Co.
Then I guess it's Big Press's fault for spreading the news and fanning the flames.
The GOP just doesn't have that much control over the MSM.

551 MisterCookie  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:54:52pm

Grr, it was a rough drive home tonight. Passed a group of anti-Israel protesters, and then saw two cars with "9/11 was an inside job" bumper stickers. I thought to myself, "gee, if I tilt my steering wheel just five degrees in that direction, I can rid the world of a fountain of stupidity".

/Desperately needs therapy

552 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:56:24pm

Hi
This is my first time posting here. I thought you may be interested in this comment from one of the deranged dunces at the deuce.
It appears that they have slipped in a troll into this thread.


66. BenZs Bat on 4 September, 2009 at 8:05 pm reply

Alright time to wade into the fray. Will be posting screen prints. I’ll try to make the responses separately distinguishable.

553 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:56:36pm

re: #551 MisterCookie

Grr, it was a rough drive home tonight. Passed a group of anti-Israel protesters, and then saw two cars with "9/11 was an inside job" bumper stickers. I thought to myself, "gee, if I tilt my steering wheel just five degrees in that direction, I can rid the world of a fountain of stupidity".

/Desperately needs therapy

Wow. Where do you live? I saw nobody except other fellow rat-racers on my drive home.

554 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:56:36pm

Might be time to seriously consider a third party that stands for a limited government, term limits, flat taxes, and the American people over party rhetoric. Neither the democrats nor republicans seem capable of doing anything for the good of the country unless it increases party power.

555 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:56:40pm

re: #546 jaunte

Best keep them in a bubble, then. Politics is loose in the world.

What can Obama tell the children of our nation that would inspire them to achieve in life..?

When everything he has done is for government to control their lives...

557 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:58:09pm

re: #542 DrNaughty

There is nothing hysterical about protecting our children from charlatans and peole of low moral character...

Is Gov. Sanford giving an address to children in his state, too?

558 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:58:13pm

re: #549 Nightlight

Thanks. I'm looking over that.

I'm just trying to understand why she would call this a slippery spot.

Not sure either.

559 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:58:37pm

re: #552 Reginald Perrin

Hi
This is my first time posting here. I thought you may be interested in this comment from one of the deranged dunces at the deuce.
It appears that they have slipped in a troll into this thread.

66. BenZs Bat on 4 September, 2009 at 8:05 pm reply

Alright time to wade into the fray. Will be posting screen prints. I’ll try to make the responses separately distinguishable.

Thanks...Good catch
What say you BenZ Bat?

560 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:58:45pm

I think it's fine this is happening on the first day of school. It's usually a day to get accustomed to being in back, new teachers, new classrooms. He's not interrupting a real school day. I think it's appropriate choice of day- motivation from the President on the first day. I don't know why I should be offended.

561 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:58:57pm

re: #552 Reginald Perrin

Hi
This is my first time posting here. I thought you may be interested in this comment from one of the deranged dunces at the deuce.
It appears that they have slipped in a troll into this thread.

66. BenZs Bat on 4 September, 2009 at 8:05 pm reply

Alright time to wade into the fray. Will be posting screen prints. I’ll try to make the responses separately distinguishable.

Great catch, Reggie! Way to stay head's up!

562 theheat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:59:05pm

re: #557 freetoken

Ouch. Good one.

And with that, I need to take a nap. All this commie talk is making me sleepy.

563 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:59:07pm

I have said this before: if you fear that your children will be hypnotized and overcome by the pronouncements of a stranger, you have far worse problems than a president's address directed to students. That will to pass over them without any noticeable effect, but their parents' fears will not.

564 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:59:13pm

re: #557 freetoken

Is Gov. Sanford giving an address to children in his state, too?

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

Honesty is not a trait that Obama seems to have in his character...

565 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:59:35pm

re: #508 haakondahl

Understood. You're saying it's an intrusion of a federal authority figure into the school environment -- more or less as I understand. Not as it applies to the children themselves but the overall scheme in a place of learning. I'd have to ponder that further in how that would lead to totalitarianism.

Also, I have no intention of lumping you in with anyone let alone the maniacs.

566 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:59:49pm

Damn...so much for going out for drinks.

567 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:59:49pm

re: #564 DrNaughty

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

That is sheer hilarity.

568 Papa Ray  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:59:58pm

"I object to this unwarranted line of communication being opened between children and the state, and it has nothing to do with any particular President. It is a necessary condition for totalitarianism, and I think we would rather do well to stop short *before* we find ourselves in extremis regarding tyranny. After all, this above all other things is the purpose of our very Constitution."

Well many folks do have problems with this "particular" president. They don't trust him or his administration anymore, if they ever trusted him in the first place.

Most school districts have an "opt out" clause for parents to enact if there is some activity or lesson plan that they don't want their kids involved in. According to all of the news I have read about half of the school districts in Texas are either not going to broadcast the speech or are going to review the speech and let parents review it and then show it to the students whose parents OK it.

Obama has just not been all the things that he promised and has been many of the things that he railed against in his campaigning days. That is another thing I read and hear, is just when is he going to stop being a candidate for president and start being the President of the United States.

And your right, it is a slippery slope when you start expanding government's role in schools. Many feel that the federal education dept should just be abolished and education left up to the states and localities. I know it would be money better spent.

569 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:00:08pm

re: #555 DrNaughty

What can Obama tell the children of our nation that would inspire them to achieve in life..?

When everything he has done is for government to control their lives...

I think Obama represents quite a story. He is beacon to many kids in this country. He is proof positive that anyone can be President. He will inspire many of these kids to be more than they think they can be with this speech.

That being said, I still disagree with about 90% of his policies and will be in full "deprogramming mode" on Tuesday night.

570 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:00:34pm

re: #552 Reginald Perrin

Welcome to LGF! Awesome first comment, Dude. High five.

571 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:00:38pm

re: #547 TheMatrix31

I dont think anyone bitching about the 20 min speech (I'm not really either, not since they started changing it to keep it a more level type thing) were the ones ignoring the 18 years of ridiculous education.

Oh! Oh!
Please tell us the original text. The one with all the craziness. A link would be greatly appreciated!

572 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:00:49pm

re: #563 jaunte

I have said this before: if you fear that your children will be hypnotized and overcome by the pronouncements of a stranger, you have far worse problems than a president's address directed to students. That will to pass over them without any noticeable effect, but their parents' fears will not.

It's not the stranger. It's what the stranger stands for which is problematic

573 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:00:59pm

re: #565 Gus 802

Understood. You're saying it's an intrusion of a federal authority figure into the school environment -- more or less as I understand. Not as it applies to the children themselves but the overall scheme in a place of learning. I'd have to ponder that further in how that would lead to totalitarianism.

Also, I have no intention of lumping you in with anyone let alone the maniacs.

Oh come on. Not even a little crazy?

574 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:01:22pm

re: #564 DrNaughty

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

Honesty is not a trait that Obama seems to have in his character...


Say what?

575 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:01:32pm

re: #564 DrNaughty

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

Honesty is not a trait that Obama seems to have in his character...

Uh huh. Yep, honest. Tell that to his wife, staff and the people of South Carolina.

I liked the part where he said he was hiking on the Appalachian Trail.

576 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:01:40pm

I know it's socialist propaganda but it's still catchy...
Electric Car - They Might Be Giants

/stuck in my head now
///must buy hybrid

577 altermite  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:01:42pm

re: #564 DrNaughty

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

Honesty is not a trait that Obama seems to have in his character...

You forgot a sarc tag.

Or you are just looking for crap to make up so you can complain about imaginary crap.

578 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:01:53pm

re: #569 Desert Dog

I think Obama represents quite a story. He is beacon to many kids in this country. He is proof positive that anyone can be President. He will inspire many of these kids to be more than they think they can be with this speech.

That being said, I still disagree with about 90% of his policies and will be in full "deprogramming mode" on Tuesday night.

Yes.. hide your past. rely on government for everything you want to achieve in life and say anything in order to make people that you actually believe what you are telling them...

579 cronus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:02:18pm

re: #564 DrNaughty

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

Honesty is not a trait that Obama seems to have in his character...

So you would describe getting busted in Atlanta returning from Argentina by an enterprising reporter as being honest about cheating?

580 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:02:19pm

varnish has vanished

581 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:02:25pm

The troll is doing a play by play of his comments back at their stalker/hate blog.

BenZs Bat on 4 September, 2009 at 8:24 pm reply


355 BenZ’s Bat Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:15:51pm replyquote

* 0
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* favorite
* report

re: #347 Charles

If I want my kids to be inspired by a “hero” I’ll make sue they see a “hero.” For example an astronaut, firefighter/police/ems, doctor, even a stockbroker. I don’t want politicians talking at my kids. Period.

359 Charles Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:16:39pm replyquote

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re: #355 BenZ’s Bat

If I want my kids to be inspired by a “hero” I’ll make sue they see a “hero.” For example an astronaut, firefighter/police/ems, doctor, even a stockbroker. I don’t want politicians talking at my kids. Period.

Yeah! Wouldn’t want them getting them the impression that the President of the United States is anybody special, would we?

372 BenZ’s Bat Fri, Sep 4, 2009 8:19:56pm replyquote

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re: #359 Charles

I didn’t say that the POTUS wasn’t anything special and to others I also didn’t say that I didn’t want my kids to learn about politics I just don’t want them to learn it from a politician. I want my kids to learn political history and form ideas for themselves of what works and what doesn’t. That is not being taught in schools today.

582 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:02:34pm

re: #572 DrNaughty

You can freak out about this all you want, but it won't have any effect on elementary school students unless you freak out about it in front of them.

583 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:02:46pm

re: #564 DrNaughty

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

Well... well... shucks, where is SpaceJesus when you need him?

584 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:02:47pm

re: #552 Reginald Perrin

Welcome!

585 MisterCookie  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:02:55pm

re: #553 Desert Dog

Was making a weekend drive from Tucson to Phoenix. Saw the protesters and one such bumper sticker in Tucson, while I saw the other in Phoenix. Tucson is mostly a college town, so the moonbattery wasn't entirely surprising. What was really weird was that the second sticker was on an SUV...wasn't big oil part of the evil illuminati plot to invade the world or something? Meh, guess I shouldn't expect logic from these fools.

586 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:03:03pm

re: #568 Papa Ray


Well many folks do have problems with this "particular" president. They don't trust him or his administration anymore, if they ever trusted him in the first place.

Most school districts have an "opt out" clause for parents to enact if there is some activity or lesson plan that they don't want their kids involved in. According to all of the news I have read about half of the school districts in Texas are either not going to broadcast the speech or are going to review the speech and let parents review it and then show it to the students whose parents OK it.

Obama has just not been all the things that he promised and has been many of the things that he railed against in his campaigning days. That is another thing I read and hear, is just when is he going to stop being a candidate for president and start being the President of the United States.

And your right, it is a slippery slope when you start expanding government's role in schools. Many feel that the federal education dept should just be abolished and education left up to the states and localities. I know it would be money better spent.

To quote SpaceJesus: "LOL [at] Texas"

587 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:03:07pm

re: #573 marjoriemoon

Oh come on. Not even a little crazy?

=)

588 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:03:15pm

re: #575 Gus 802

Uh huh. Yep, honest. Tell that to his wife, staff and the people of South Carolina.

I liked the part where he said he was hiking on the Appalachian Trail.

lol Gotta love those honest adulterers. Maybe we should give the guy a medal!

589 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:03:28pm

re: #565 Gus 802

Understood. You're saying it's an intrusion of a federal authority figure into the school environment -- more or less as I understand. Not as it applies to the children themselves but the overall scheme in a place of learning. I'd have to ponder that further in how that would lead to totalitarianism.

Also, I have no intention of lumping you in with anyone let alone the maniacs.

I am not saying that it leads to totalitarianism. I am saying that it is one of the firebreaks between us and totalitarianism. That is, it is a necessary but by no means sufficient condition.

590 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:03:34pm

re: #564 DrNaughty

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

Who knew the Appalachin Trail went all the way down to Buenos Aires?

/

591 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:03:51pm

re: #579 cronus

So you would describe getting busted in Atlanta returning from Argentina by an enterprising reporter as being honest about cheating?

Yup you're right. that put him in the Bill Clinton category of the "I never had sex with that woman, Monica Lewinski"...

592 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:03:59pm

re: #571 swamprat

Oh! Oh!
Please tell us the original text. The one with all the craziness. A link would be greatly appreciated!

Um...you know damn well what I'm referring to so spare me the sarcasm please. In case you don't, [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ugh.

593 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:04:12pm
594 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:04:23pm

re: #570 Sharmuta

Welcome to LGF! Awesome first comment, Dude. High five.

Hey, you stole that from me!

595 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:04:56pm

re: #594 TheMatrix31

I told you I was, remember?

596 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:05:14pm

re: #593 BenZ's Bat

Piss off, stalker blogger.

597 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:05:29pm

re: #575 Gus 802

Uh huh. Yep, honest. Tell that to his wife, staff and the people of South Carolina.

I liked the part where he said he was hiking on the Appalachian Trail.

Uh, I don't think his wife is talking to his staff anymore.

598 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:05:38pm

re: #585 MisterCookie

Was making a weekend drive from Tucson to Phoenix. Saw the protesters and one such bumper sticker in Tucson, while I saw the other in Phoenix. Tucson is mostly a college town, so the moonbattery wasn't entirely surprising. What was really weird was that the second sticker was on an SUV...wasn't big oil part of the evil illuminati plot to invade the world or something? Meh, guess I shouldn't expect logic from these fools.

Wow...I-10 must have sucked bad tonight! I am driving up north early tomorrow...Kayenta bound!

599 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:05:39pm

re: #564 DrNaughty

At least Sanford is honest about his philandering...

Honesty is not a trait that Obama seems to have in his character...

Sanford is honest? After he was caught in a series of lies, you mean?

600 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:05:52pm

Motorcycle geeks. Cruiser, or Sport Cruiser?

I don't have mountains in my area, but plenty of lake roads. I'm leaning toward the more nimble sport cruiser, but there will be times I'm on long, straight roads.

601 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:05:58pm

re: #581 Reginald Perrin

Again, Bravo! You kept your eyes open and discovered Rodan's infiltrator. No all that remains is the Wielding Of The Stick.

602 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:06:05pm

re: #595 Sharmuta

I told you I was, remember?

I know, I'm just jokin' around ;)

603 haakondahl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:06:27pm

Stalker blog on YouTube!

604 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:06:38pm

re: #589 haakondahl

I am not saying that it leads to totalitarianism. I am saying that it is one of the firebreaks between us and totalitarianism. That is, it is a necessary but by no means sufficient condition.

Then I misunderstood. You said:

I object to this unwarranted line of communication being opened between children and the state, and it has nothing to do with any particular President. It is a necessary condition for totalitarianism, and I think we would rather do well to stop short *before* we find ourselves in extremis regarding tyranny. After all, this above all other things is the purpose of our very Constitution.

A necessary condition for totalitarianism that should be stopped before we find ourselves in extremis regarding tyranny.

605 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:06:38pm

re: #599 SanFranciscoZionist

Sanford is honest? After he was caught in a series of lies, you mean?

Nothing worse than the Clintons... (/sac)

606 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:06:52pm

re: #592 TheMatrix31

nope
I did not
and I thank you for the link

607 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:06:53pm

re: #602 TheMatrix31

Dude- you made my favorites. That's a high honor. ;)

608 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:06:55pm

re: #593 BenZ's Bat

FOAD, troll.

609 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:07:23pm

re: #607 Sharmuta

Dude- you made my favorites. That's a high honor. ;)

At least I'm doing something right around here!

610 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:08:02pm

re: #605 DrNaughty

Sanford killed Vince Foster?

//

611 tradewind  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:08:09pm

re: #537 DrNaughty
Give credit where it's due.

He's managed to completely misunderestimate the unemployment rate , having affirmed that if we pass his stimulus bill, unemployment would not exceed 8.5 percent.
He's whipped our Euro allies into shape so well that they bow five times towards Libya and release the bomber who blew American students out of the sky.
He's calmed the Norks to the point that they're fast-tracking their plutonium enrichment yet again.
And he's managed to show the nation that he had no clue as to what ' his ' healthcare reform bill contained.
He's managed to increase the projected deficit in six months at a rate faster and to an amount greater than the Bush administration did in four years.
And he's credited with focusing the attention of a nation for almost a week on a truly historic breakthrough in diplomacy: the first Beer Summit.

612 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:08:18pm

re: #610 Fenway_Nation

Sanford killed Vince Foster?

//

LOL

613 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:08:23pm

re: #581 Reginald Perrin

Maybe you're a dude, playing the dude, disguised as another dude?

614 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:08:51pm

re: #609 TheMatrix31

I really wanted to use that on Jaunte, but first comment outing a stalker called for a high five.

615 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:10:02pm

re: #611 tradewind

Give credit where it's due.

He's managed to completely misunderestimate the unemployment rate , having affirmed that if we pass his stimulus bill, unemployment would not exceed 8.5 percent.
He's whipped our Euro allies into shape so well that they bow five times towards Libya and release the bomber who blew American students out of the sky.
He's calmed the Norks to the point that they're fast-tracking their plutonium enrichment yet again.
And he's managed to show the nation that he had no clue as to what ' his ' healthcare reform bill contained.
He's managed to increase the projected deficit in six months at a rate faster and to an amount greater than the Bush administration did in four years.
And he's credited with focusing the attention of a nation for almost a week on a truly historic breakthrough in diplomacy: the first Beer Summit.

All that and he's only been in office just over 7 months...

Wait till next summer and the congressional races...

616 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:10:03pm

re: #548 Charles

The volume of which you speak shows to my mind that the country really needs a moderate center party. Then the extremists can be cut adrift, so to speak.

617 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:10:35pm

Man, the sheer childishness of these people is almost unbelievable.

Look, daddy! I hate you, daddy! Love me, daddy! I hate you!

A sad pathetic waste of human tissue.

618 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:10:39pm

Fuck man, I was hungry too. I was looking forward to eating dinner. Argh.

619 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:10:41pm

Good evening Lizards! Lively discussion, Charles is on a roll, and once again I am pleased to see that ODS doesn't even come close to the wackiness of BDS!

///Do I hafta?

620 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:10:49pm

re: #605 DrNaughty

Nothing worse than the Clintons... (/sac)

I didn't say Clinton was honest. You, on the other hand, said Sanford was.

He seems a poor model of honestly to hold up right this minute.

Of course, if you want to play the 'har, har, Clinton lied' card, feel free, but don't pretend it's anything but partisan whinging.

621 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:10:59pm

re: #575 Gus 802

His wife gave, what I thought, was a terific interview in the September Vogue. She was dignified, agreed that she had taken the kids & left him to "work out his issues". No dirt,no whining, just a "this is what I have done" kind of interview. She stuck me as very level headed. And protective of her children. She's been screwed, but is finding her way out of it.

622 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:11:03pm

re: #613 gulfloafer

Maybe you're a dude, playing the dude, disguised as another dude?

Dude.

623 tradewind  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:11:07pm

re: #559 HoosierHoops

Batter up, Benny! Bases are loaded...
And so is Big Stinky's bb gun. Let's see how far ya get...

(Good catch, troll patrol).

624 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:11:08pm

re: #611 tradewind

Give credit where it's due.

He's managed to completely misunderestimate the unemployment rate , having affirmed that if we pass his stimulus bill, unemployment would not exceed 8.5 percent.
He's whipped our Euro allies into shape so well that they bow five times towards Libya and release the bomber who blew American students out of the sky.
He's calmed the Norks to the point that they're fast-tracking their plutonium enrichment yet again.
And he's managed to show the nation that he had no clue as to what ' his ' healthcare reform bill contained.
He's managed to increase the projected deficit in six months at a rate faster and to an amount greater than the Bush administration did in four years.
And he's credited with focusing the attention of a nation for almost a week on a truly historic breakthrough in diplomacy: the first Beer Summit.

You forget he revived an almost dead GOP

625 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:11:28pm

re: #617 Charles

I feel a little guilty about laughing at that. But only a little.

626 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:11:29pm

And the stalker is toast. He's too rancid to grill, so I'm just going to dump him back down the troll hole he crawled out of with a sign attached. The sign will say:

To: LGF2.0

From: Dark_Falcon

Get A Life!

627 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:11:35pm

re: #619 austin_blue

Good evening Lizards! Lively discussion, Charles is on a roll, and once again I am pleased to see that ODS doesn't even come close to the wackiness of BDS!

///Do I hafta?

The problem with those who are inflicted with BDS is that they failed to differentiate respecting the man and respecting the office he held...

628 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:11:38pm

Wednesday morning, there's still 9 trillion in the red, Norks and Iranians building bombs, and a healthcare reform fiasco to rewrite since the Most Ethical Congress Evah ran wild with it staring Sunshine in the face.

Have a nice Labor Day weekend.

629 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:12:25pm

re: #621 Floral Giraffe

His wife gave, what I thought, was a terific interview in the September Vogue. She was dignified, agreed that she had taken the kids & left him to "work out his issues". No dirt,no whining, just a "this is what I have done" kind of interview. She stuck me as very level headed. And protective of her children. She's been screwed, but is finding her way out of it.

She seems like a class act. Thank God--those boys need at least one grown-up parent.

630 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:12:47pm

re: #627 DrNaughty

The problem with those who are inflicted with BDS is that they failed to differentiate respecting the man and respecting the office he held...

Interesting. It's happening now too. In mirror reflection.

631 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:13:32pm
632 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:13:48pm

re: #627 DrNaughty

The problem with those who are inflicted with BDS is that they failed to differentiate respecting the man and respecting the office he held...

If one can't bring their children to listen to their own president's 20 minute speech on the first day of school, they are hardly respecting the office OR the man.

633 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:13:52pm

re: #593 BenZ's Bat

Forgive my unsolicited input here, but you said:

I'm also sad to see that it has shifted significantly to the left recently.

I contend that a lot of bloggers here have shifted significantly to the right recently (post-O). This is the very same anti-idiotarian blog I once knew. Just my opinion of course.

Carry on Charles, carry on.

634 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:13:55pm

re: #619 austin_blue

Good evening Lizards! Lively discussion, Charles is on a roll, and once again I am pleased to see that ODS doesn't even come close to the wackiness of BDS!

///Do I hafta?

Evening, Austin. Pity you weren't here a few minutes ago. We had a stalker troll that would have been a fun target for you with your HK.

635 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:14:15pm

Hey Night Lizards!

Any troll action tonite? I'm in the mood.

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

636 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:14:17pm

re: #629 SanFranciscoZionist

She seems like a class act. Thank God--those boys need at least one grown-up parent.

Sad to say, that's likely why he lost interest in her. Miscreant.

637 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:14:21pm

re: #631 Gus 802

I haven't watched her speak but read about her leaving with the children. I'm glad she left after seeing what happened with Pataki, Edwards, and the others. Adultery or cheating is non-negotiable IMO.

Correction! Not Pataki! Eliot Spitzer!!!

638 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:14:23pm

re: #628 SasquatchOnSteroids

Wednesday morning, there's still 9 trillion in the red, Norks and Iranians building bombs, and a healthcare reform fiasco to rewrite since the Most Ethical Congress Evah ran wild with it staring Sunshine in the face.

Have a nice Labor Day weekend.

I am laboring on Labor Day. Oh well, to quote Mr. Crabs, "MONEY!"

639 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:14:36pm

re: #611 tradewind

Like iceweasel pointed out, the left has plenty of reason to be pissed off at 0bama as well:

-Not cozying up to Hugo Chavez quick enough
-Not taking over enough sectors of the economy quick enough
-Not throwing democratically elected gov't of Iraq to the wolves quick enough
-Not sending enough money to 'resistance' groups like Hizbullah or Hamas
-Authorized the slayings of three black youths on the high seas
-Not throwing Colombia to the wolves quick enough
-Not cozying up to Achmedinejahd quick enough
-Not prosecuting Bush Administration officials quick enough
-Not cozying up to Robert Mugabe quick enough
-Not closing down Guantanamo Bay quick enough
-Not thowing Isreal to the wolves quick enough
-Not cozying up to Daniel Ortega quick enough
-Not ending Bush's imperialistic war for oil in Afghanistan quick enough

640 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:15:02pm

re: #638 Desert Dog

I am laboring on Labor Day. Oh well, to quote Mr. Crabs, "MONEY!"

Sorry to hear that.
I'll down one in your stead.

641 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:15:47pm

Charles, can you please delete #631. I don't want to have a post incorrectly identifying someone of adultery.

642 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:16:27pm

re: #639 Fenway_Nation

Like iceweasel pointed out, the left has plenty of reason to be pissed off at 0bama as well:

-Not cozying up to Hugo Chavez quick enough
-Not taking over enough sectors of the economy quick enough
-Not throwing democratically elected gov't of Iraq to the wolves quick enough
-Not sending enough money to 'resistance' groups like Hizbullah or Hamas
-Authorized the slayings of three black youths on the high seas
-Not throwing Colombia to the wolves quick enough
-Not cozying up to Achmedinejahd quick enough
-Not prosecuting Bush Administration officials quick enough
-Not cozying up to Robert Mugabe quick enough
-Not closing down Guantanamo Bay quick enough
-Not thowing Isreal to the wolves quick enough
-Not cozying up to Daniel Ortega quick enough
-Not ending Bush's imperialistic war for oil in Afghanistan quick enough

There's still time, he's in office until at least Jan 2012...once he converts the economy to the new 5 Year Plan, he can start on that list! :-)

643 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:16:36pm

re: #636 esch

Sad to say, that's likely why he lost interest in her. Miscreant.

A gentleman of my acquaintance used to have only one piece of relationship advice: "Dump the bum. You can do better."

She can.

644 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:16:48pm

re: #629 SanFranciscoZionist

She came across as having her head screwed on the right way. Sad for the break up, concerned for her husband, but determined to do right by her kids ( 4 boys, IIRC). A class act all the way around. I wish her the best.

645 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:16:51pm

re: #619 austin_blue

Good evening Lizards! Lively discussion, Charles is on a roll, and once again I am pleased to see that ODS doesn't even come close to the wackiness of BDS!

///Do I hafta?


I haven't heard anyone accuse Obama of conspiring to fly panes into buildings...but it's still early.

646 capitalist piglet  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:16:58pm

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

That will probably work. Thank you for the advice, avanti. I really, really, hate this story. People are letting their distrust of Obama lead them to take insane positions. The toxic level of Bad Craziness is very depressing.

Hi, DF. This is a tad hyperbolic, I think.

People were concerned about the politicization of the classroom. That's "insane"? It's a "toxic level of Bad Craziness"?

Not to me, it isn't. I don't want the president or his representatives in the classroom (pro-Obama teachers) pushing his leftist agenda on children (nor would I want a conservative president doing the equivalent).

Speaking to them? No big deal. Soliciting their "help", through the post-speech discussion materials? That crosses a line, in my opinion. I'm glad they backed off of that one. This White House needs to be smacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper (to paraphrase buzz) when they overreach, and that's what happened.

They'll be more careful next time, I hope.

647 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:17:02pm

re: #630 Coracle

Interesting. It's happening now too. In mirror reflection.

Also many Democrats never considered President Bush's 2000 election "legitimate'...

In obama's case. that's not the issue.. it's the polices he's inflecting on the United States is what I disagree with. Along with his past being that he woudln't pass an FBI background check. His character also seems to be lacking when you hear what he says that does not agree with facts.

You will never hear me posting derogatory about the office he was elected to.

648 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:17:08pm

Towercam fire check!

And, good night all.

649 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:17:14pm

The interwebs suck.

650 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:17:36pm

re: #627 DrNaughty

The problem with those who are inflicted with BDS is that they failed to differentiate respecting the man and respecting the office he held...

And the respect being shown to the office by the ODS sufferers? Hmmm...

Socialist
Communist
Foreigner
Secret Muslim
Indoctrinator in Chief
Self-Proclaimed Messiah
Anti-Christ
Megalomaniac

The majority of BDS sufferers thought he was just stooopid and a tool of Cheney. Meh.

651 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:17:40pm

re: #631 Gus 802

I haven't watched her speak but read about her leaving with the children. I'm glad she left after seeing what happened with Pataki, Edwards, and the others. Adultery or cheating is non-negotiable IMO.

Not only that, but from what I understood he was caught months before Appalachian Trail. And then, "don't ever see that b*tch again." And then Appalachian Trail...

652 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:17:50pm

re: #647 DrNaughty

Also many Democrats never considered President Bush's 2000 election "legitimate'...

In obama's case. that's not the issue.. it's the polices he's inflecting on the United States is what I disagree with. Along with his past being that he woudln't pass an FBI background check. His character also seems to be lacking when you hear what he says that does not agree with facts.

You will never hear me posting derogatory about the office he was elected to.

It's really hard to take anything you say seriously after holding Sanford up as an example of honesty.

653 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:18:02pm

re: #639 Fenway_Nation

Like iceweasel pointed out, the left has plenty of reason to be pissed off at 0bama as well:

-Not cozying up to Hugo Chavez quick enough
-Not taking over enough sectors of the economy quick enough
-Not throwing democratically elected gov't of Iraq to the wolves quick enough
-Not sending enough money to 'resistance' groups like Hizbullah or Hamas
-Authorized the slayings of three black youths on the high seas
-Not throwing Colombia to the wolves quick enough
-Not cozying up to Achmedinejahd quick enough
-Not prosecuting Bush Administration officials quick enough
-Not cozying up to Robert Mugabe quick enough
-Not closing down Guantanamo Bay quick enough
-Not thowing Isreal to the wolves quick enough
-Not cozying up to Daniel Ortega quick enough
-Not ending Bush's imperialistic war for oil in Afghanistan quick enough

Obama really seems to have put himself in a wringer...

654 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:18:04pm

re: #645 BignJames


planes either

655 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:18:40pm

re: #649 Racer X

The interwebs suck.

How are you tonite ?

You OK out there ?

656 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:19:26pm

re: #639 Fenway_Nation

Hey, there have been some minor victories. I give you the condemnation of the people and institutions of Honduras, the condemnation of Israeli settlements, the ME apology tour, etc.

Some good stuff there!
/

657 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:19:28pm

re: #634 Dark_Falcon

Evening, Austin. Pity you weren't here a few minutes ago. We had a stalker troll that would have been a fun target for you with your HK.

Damn. Sorry I missed it. One in the ten ring is always appropriate. Were his gamey buttocks grilled up for snackies?

658 jcm  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:19:34pm

re: #648 Ojoe

Towercam fire check!

And, good night all.

Goodnight Ojoe!

659 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:19:39pm

re: #645 BignJames

I haven't heard anyone accuse Obama of conspiring to fly panes into buildings...but it's still early.

There are quite enough facts to criticize him about without resorting to hyperbole...

Unlike the Democrats who simply hated President Bush and would say anything to denigrate him...

660 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:19:52pm

re: #646 capitalist piglet

Hi, DF. This is a tad hyperbolic, I think.

People were concerned about the politicization of the classroom. That's "insane"? It's a "toxic level of Bad Craziness"?

Yes, it certainly is. Obama's going to tell children to stay in school, work hard, and take responsibility.

THE HORROR.

Not to me, it isn't. I don't want the president or his representatives in the classroom (pro-Obama teachers) pushing his leftist agenda on children (nor would I want a conservative president doing the equivalent).

Yeah, those horrible leftist principles like working hard and taking responsibility.

WE'RE DOOMED!

Speaking to them? No big deal. Soliciting their "help", through the post-speech discussion materials? That crosses a line, in my opinion. I'm glad they backed off of that one. This White House needs to be smacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper (to paraphrase buzz) when they overreach, and that's what happened.

How dare they issue commie lesson plans to these poor little tykes!

THE MONSTERS!

They'll be more careful next time, I hope.

Yeah. VICTORY!

661 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:20:00pm

re: #650 austin_blue

And the respect being shown to the office by the ODS sufferers? Hmmm...

Socialist
Communist
Foreigner
Secret Muslim
Indoctrinator in Chief
Self-Proclaimed Messiah
Anti-Christ
Megalomaniac

The majority of BDS sufferers thought he was just stooopid and a tool of Cheney. Meh.

That's NOT "just" what they would say.

662 Syrah  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:20:12pm

OT for Safari users.

Why would I want to save a web-page as a "web-archives" file instead of an HTML file?

Is there an advantage?

663 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:20:17pm

re: #650 austin_blue

And the respect being shown to the office by the ODS sufferers? Hmmm...

Socialist
Communist
Foreigner
Secret Muslim
Indoctrinator in Chief
Self-Proclaimed Messiah
Anti-Christ
Megalomaniac

The majority of BDS sufferers thought he was just stooopid and a tool of Cheney. Meh.

Not all of us are like Glenn Beck...

664 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:20:22pm

Wow, 650 comments in and nowhere near completely OT yet. What's the record?

665 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:21:09pm

re: #650 austin_blue

And the respect being shown to the office by the ODS sufferers? Hmmm...

Socialist
Communist
Foreigner
Secret Muslim
Indoctrinator in Chief
Self-Proclaimed Messiah
Anti-Christ
Megalomaniac

The majority of BDS sufferers thought he was just stooopid and a tool of Cheney. Meh.


You're saying he isn't?

666 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:21:18pm
667 MisterCookie  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:21:21pm

re: #660 Charles

ITS THE BEGINNING OF THE OLIGARHY!!!1111 Thank God the Republicans have such outstanding, honor-bound leadership such as Governor Sanford...

668 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:21:49pm

re: #655 SasquatchOnSteroids

How are you tonite ?

You OK out there ?

Hiya SOS, I'm good. Just spent over 2 hours on the phone with my ISP. Finally got the nets fixed.

669 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:21:50pm

re: #664 cliffster

Wow, 650 comments in and nowhere near completely OT yet. What's the record?

The first handful of ID threads went on for 1000s of comments and all on topic.

670 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:21:55pm

re: #663 DrNaughty

Not all of us are like Glenn Beck...

It's really not hard to search the threads here and find Socialist, Communist, Marxist, and quite a few others from Lizards who should know better.

671 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:22:09pm

re: #662 Syrah

OT for Safari users.

Why would I want to save a web-page as a "web-archives" file instead of an HTML file?

Is there an advantage?

A web archive includes all the images. It's a better way to save it if you want a complete copy on your computer.

672 Syrah  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:22:51pm

re: #671 Charles

Thanks.

673 Silvergirl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:22:56pm

Late to the thread, and I've skipped chunks of it, but somewhere up above someone was comparing this broadcast to something religious, saying he/she didn't want religion taught to the kids, and therefore did not want the schools politicized like this either.

This is not an apt comparison. Students are taught about elections, presidents, government, as well they should be. They are taught about political parties and their platforms. Flags are hung in classrooms. If they are taught well, they will be taught respect for the office of the POTUS. If a speech is given especially geared for them, they need to hear it!

You wouldn't want preaching and sermons by all different religions done in the schools (neither would I) and you wouldn't want religious icons displayed, and public schools don't tune in when the pope is addressing an audience, and this is as it should be.

I don't understand why these were compared.

674 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:23:01pm

re: #670 Coracle

It's really not hard to search the threads here and find Socialist, Communist, Marxist, and quite a few others from Lizards who should know better.

Considering his influences and history, it's not like those are stretches. Whatever.

675 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:23:02pm

re: #669 Sharmuta

The first handful of ID threads went on for 1000s of comments and all on topic.

I'll buy that.

676 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:23:06pm

re: #666 RainDog

When the crypto-fascist mask fell?

677 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:23:15pm

re: #669 Sharmuta

That was by design...

//

678 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:23:36pm

re: #674 TheMatrix31

Right-o. Exactly what I was saying.

679 jcm  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:24:01pm

re: #662 Syrah

OT for Safari users.

Why would I want to save a web-page as a "web-archives" file instead of an HTML file?

Is there an advantage?

Web archive downloads the entire page, including images etc... it's a complete snap shot of a page. Nice when you think a page might be taken down later.

680 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:24:14pm

re: #657 austin_blue

Damn. Sorry I missed it. One in the ten ring is always appropriate. Were his gamey buttocks grilled up for snackies?

Nope, sorry. But I did put him to good use:

re: #626 Dark_Falcon

And the stalker is toast. He's too rancid to grill, so I'm just going to dump him back down the troll hole he crawled out of with a sign attached. The sign will say:

To: LGF2.0

From: Dark_Falcon

Get A Life!

681 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:25:49pm

re: #651 cliffster

Not only that, but from what I understood he was caught months before Appalachian Trail. And then, "don't ever see that b*tch again." And then Appalachian Trail...

"Happy traaaiiils to you..."

682 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:25:51pm

re: #670 Coracle

It's really not hard to search the threads here and find Socialist, Communist, Marxist, and quite a few others from Lizards who should know better.

I've really not found a label for his policies. other than being "inept" and "unimaginative"..

Omama has simply found every possible way to retard economic growth and pursue policies to make every American dependent on government to control their lives...

Which is more than enough reason to criticize him

683 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:25:59pm

Y'know, Charles is going to feel real silly if Obama gives his speech and talks for 10 minutes about how nobody should be denied health care and the failure of the previous administration.

/ what if it really is all about the hokey-pokey?

684 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:26:47pm

re: #682 DrNaughty


Omama has simply found every possible way to retard economic growth and pursue policies to make every American dependent on government to control their lives...

Yeah, thats not hyperbolic in the least.

685 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:26:53pm

re: #670 Coracle

It's really not hard to search the threads here and find Socialist, Communist, Marxist, and quite a few others from Lizards who should know better.


You don't think he's a socialist either?

686 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:26:57pm

re: #683 cliffster

Y'know, Charles is going to feel real silly if Obama gives his speech and talks for 10 minutes about how nobody should be denied health care and the failure of the previous administration.

/ what if it really is all about the hokey-pokey?

That's not going to happen.

687 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:27:14pm

I'm surprised that anyone would consider their children to be blank slates, just waiting for the O to give them their marching orders on health care and redistributing the wealth. These are the same children that have a hard time remembering their homework assignments.

688 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:27:25pm

re: #683 cliffster

Y'know, Charles is going to feel real silly if Obama gives his speech and talks for 10 minutes about how nobody should be denied health care and the failure of the previous administration.

/ what if it really is all about the hokey-pokey?

On the other hand, all the people hyperventilating over this mind-bogglingly stupid fake outrage won't feel silly at all. They'll just move right on to the next idiotic fake outrage.

689 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:27:29pm

re: #685 BignJames

You don't think he's a socialist either?

I think the claim is ridiculous on its face.

690 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:27:35pm

re: #661 TheMatrix31

That's NOT "just" what they would say.

Some? No. The majority? Yes. There is a new level of whack with the ODS crew. The Independents are looking at this and wondering when the adults in the Republican Party are going to step in.

Charles is right on this. He is going to talk about his experience, his hopes for his young daughters, and how important a good education is for the future of our country.

alert///

That and learning the importance of dialectical materialism and the unstoppable tide of the proletariat in the ultimate overthrow of the ruling classes.

///

691 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:27:49pm

re: #684 Coracle

Yeah, thats not hyperbolic in the least.

What has he done that would make us believe otherwise ?

692 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:27:57pm

re: #650 austin_blue

And the respect being shown to the office by the ODS sufferers? Hmmm...

Socialist
Communist
Foreigner
Secret Muslim
Indoctrinator in Chief
Self-Proclaimed Messiah
Anti-Christ
Megalomaniac

The majority of BDS sufferers thought he was just stooopid and a tool of Cheney. Meh.

The only ones I care about are Socialist(Banks, GM/C & public option), Messiah(seas receding/new age) and Megalomaniac(I won).

693 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:28:12pm

re: #688 Charles

On the other hand, all the people hyperventilating over this mind-bogglingly stupid fake outrage won't feel silly at all. They'll just move right on to the next idiotic fake outrage.

Rageafauxbia?

694 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:29:01pm

re: #688 Charles

On the other hand, all the people hyperventilating over this mind-bogglingly stupid fake outrage won't feel silly at all. They'll just move right on to the next idiotic fake outrage.

I already know what the next one is going to be. It involves a flag.

695 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:29:14pm

re: #690 austin_blue

Some? No. The majority? Yes. There is a new level of whack with the ODS crew. The Independents are looking at this and wondering when the adults in the Republican Party are going to step in.

Charles is right on this. He is going to talk about his experience, his hopes for his young daughters, and how important a good education is for the future of our country.

alert///

That and learning the importance of dialectical materialism and the unstoppable tide of the proletariat in the ultimate overthrow of the ruling classes.

///

I'm not saying he's not right, lol. Jeez.

696 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:29:20pm

re: #689 Coracle

I think the claim is ridiculous on its face.

Obama is not pursuing policies to stimulate the private sector...

His economic growth polices are dependent on how much money he can borrow from the Communist Chinese for government programs to employ people...

697 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:29:39pm

re: #689 Coracle

I think the claim is ridiculous on its face.

How so?

698 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:29:46pm

re: #691 DrNaughty

What has he done that would make us believe otherwise ?

Let's start with not finding "every possible way to retard economic growth and pursue policies to make every American dependent on government to control their lives".

699 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:30:34pm

re: #685 BignJames

You don't think he's a socialist either?

I think he's a rather inept fairly middle-of-the-road liberal, with not much vision and not much bite. I don't think he's anywhere near as far to the left as he's been wee-weed up to be.

700 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:31:08pm

re: #688 Charles

On the other hand, all the people hyperventilating over this mind-bogglingly stupid fake outrage won't feel silly at all. They'll just move right on to the next idiotic fake outrage.

Ain't THAT the truth.

701 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:31:10pm

re: #646 capitalist piglet

Hi, DF. This is a tad hyperbolic, I think.

People were concerned about the politicization of the classroom. That's "insane"? It's a "toxic level of Bad Craziness"?

Not to me, it isn't. I don't want the president or his representatives in the classroom (pro-Obama teachers) pushing his leftist agenda on children (nor would I want a conservative president doing the equivalent).

Speaking to them? No big deal. Soliciting their "help", through the post-speech discussion materials? That crosses a line, in my opinion. I'm glad they backed off of that one. This White House needs to be smacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper (to paraphrase buzz) when they overreach, and that's what happened.

They'll be more careful next time, I hope.

Yes, it is somewhat hyperbolic. But this story strikes me as stupid, when people enthusiastically push stupid like the right has on this story it kind of trips my trigger. It's a very foolish thing to pursue.

702 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:31:16pm

re: #699 SanFranciscoZionist

wee-weed

lol

703 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:31:25pm

re: #698 Coracle

Let's start with not finding "every possible way to retard economic growth and pursue policies to make every American dependent on government to control their lives".

Well.. what has Obama done to stimulate private sector growth, besides spend tax money to underwrite automobile sales?

Ooops.. the car dealers seem to be pissed because they haven't received their government checks yet...

704 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:32:22pm

re: #700 SanFranciscoZionist

Ain't THAT the truth.

More to come. Plus we get to critique the White House Christmas Dinner. Seriously, I bet that comes up too.

705 itellu3times  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:32:25pm

re: #556 Killian Bundy

A conversation with Alexander Karp, CEO of Palantir Technologies

/the CIA, FBI, and Pentagon beat a bath to his door

That was posted on LGF somewhere earlier tonight. They didn't quite beat a path (nor run a bath) to his door, but with a billionaire providing the financing, they finally got a contract, though it sounds like nobody on their staff can see the actual data!

I recall just four or five years ago the FBI was still trying to get their network upgraded from 1986-quality Novell and for all I know green-screen character-only PCs. I'm not sure this Palantir business is any more significant than that.

706 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:33:11pm

re: #699 SanFranciscoZionist

I think he's a rather inept fairly middle-of-the-road liberal, with not much vision and not much bite. I don't think he's anywhere near as far to the left as he's been wee-weed up to be.

I think both he and Michelle were surprised that the American voters were gullible enough to actually elect him.

I'm reminded at the end of the film "The Canidate" when Robert Redford, who was just elected senator, said to his campaign manager (Peter Boyle).. 'Well.. what do we do now" ?

707 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:33:36pm

re: #693 Sharmuta

Rageafauxbia?

That's great!

708 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:33:36pm

I was doing some deep thinking today. Yes, I know it is a terrifying thought, but I think I figured something out.

I was pondering the hysterical nature of some of the responses to anything to do with Obama, particularly this speech to schoolchildren.

We, meaning both Americans and Terrans, are in unchartered territory in many respects. The global economy is something few comprehend, the sheer speed of world-wide communications and the explosion of information available in the last 10 years is mind-numbing; and the very real concern of very bad people in the world and the difficulty in discouraging them, while preserving liberty are just some of the issues that make-up this unchartered territory.

Now, we have a new historic POTUS who is inexperienced in world politics and IMHO unseasoned. He has questionable past associations and has had strange "stellar" political ascent.

We have an untried leader navigating us thru unchartered territory. . .

FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN, I think, is a precursor to hysteria. People who, under other circumstances, might be rational, become unable to think logically while in this state.

Luckily, I think *most* people (to quote a Lizard from some time ago) are focused on paying their bills, trying to keep their spouses from spending money, keeping their kids in-line and the lawn mower to start. Meaning, we are living our lives and aren't going to let the conspiracies and hysteria consume our lives.

Maybe, most fortunate, we get another election or two in the next 4 years.

Just trying to keep a healthy perspective.

Thanks for reading.

709 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:33:45pm

re: #704 Gus 802

More to come. Plus we get to critique the White House Christmas Dinner. Seriously, I bet that comes up too.

I bet there will be some non-standard menu items that will get a good looking at.

710 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:34:02pm

re: #699 SanFranciscoZionist

I think he's a rather inept fairly middle-of-the-road liberal, with not much vision and not much bite. I don't think he's anywhere near as far to the left as he's been wee-weed up to be.


Lemme clue ya...Liberal democrats are socialists...at least Bernie Sanders believes in truth in advertising.

711 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:34:06pm

re: #703 DrNaughty

Yes, because failing to stimulate growth effectively or fast enough is exactly equivalent to finding "every possible way to retard economic growth and pursue policies to make every American dependent on government to control their lives".

I get it now.

712 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:34:22pm

re: #699 SanFranciscoZionist

You might want to review his voting record in the senate.

713 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:34:23pm

re: #707 swamprat

Thanks, Swampy. Hope you're well tonight and have a great holiday weekend.

714 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:34:51pm

re: #709 jaunte

I bet there will be some non-standard menu items that will get a good looking at.

For sure. Who knows, what if there's a "Living Christmas Tree?" You know, just to appear green maybe.

The outrage!

715 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:35:00pm

re: #699 SanFranciscoZionist

I think he's a rather inept fairly middle-of-the-road liberal, with not much vision and not much bite. I don't think he's anywhere near as far to the left as he's been wee-weed up to be.

"Middle of the road liberal." Let that one sink in folks.

716 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:35:11pm

Roomba question: Is it learning?
I bought my roomba yesterday, used it twice and it never found its way back to its charging base. Today I used it twice and it found its way back twice. Coincidence? Does it map out the floorplan? Is it sending my layout to DHS? SkyNet? Should I alert Sarah O'Connor?

717 itellu3times  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:35:12pm

When did the new comments button get all flaky?

It doesn't always show a number now when there are messages waiting, and a couple of times I've caught it showing numbers, and clicking delivered nothing. Looks like it just gets out of sync now and then.

718 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:35:18pm

re: #665 BignJames

You're saying he isn't?

Do you like your police department? Your fire department? Your fresh water supplier? Your sewage processor? Your air traffic control system? Your interstate highway system? Your military?

Cluebat: This country's infrastructure, for the majority of its citizens, is socialized. This is especially true in more urbanized areas. The risks are spread among the populace and profits don't go to third parties who demand an increase in "shareholder value".

It's a *good* thing. How would you like it if police response was based on whether your premium was up to date?

719 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:35:28pm

re: #710 BignJames

Lemme clue ya...Liberal democrats are socialists...at least Bernie Sanders believes in truth in advertising.

Not according to the socialists. Or the Lib dems. Just according to those far enough on the right that the left looks like one big commie blob in the distance..

720 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:36:00pm

re: #713 Sharmuta

You are too gracious. Thank you.

721 jcm  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:36:15pm

re: #708 ggt

Here there be dragons.

And nary a St. George in sight.

722 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:36:39pm

re: #711 Coracle

Yes, because failing to stimulate growth effectively or fast enough is exactly equivalent to finding "every possible way to retard economic growth and pursue policies to make every American dependent on government to control their lives".

I get it now.

Perhaps instead of getting Congress to vote $800,000,000,000 for a "stimulus" for him to control who gets the money, perhaps just suspend FICA taxes for a year and let people keep the money that they earned would have that "fast econmic growth" ?

But then, that would not allow the Democrats to insure that the money goes where they want to go... would it ?

723 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:36:40pm

re: #710 BignJames

Lemme clue ya...Liberal democrats are socialists...at least Bernie Sanders believes in truth in advertising.

All democrats are liberals. They are socialists in that they support social programs like welfare (as it was reformed), public schools, Medicare, SS, roads, parks, etc.

How do you define "socialist"?

724 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:36:59pm

re: #712 gulfloafer

The gift present that keeps on giving...

725 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:37:00pm

Dark_Falcon

It was an easy catch, the intellectual midgets at the deuce were planning it on-line the other night, so all I had to do was sit here with my troll hunters scouting book and wait for a familiar nickname to show up.
Then a quick check of the stalker blog confirmed my suspicion. I have been kicking Eric Odom's trolls a$$es for a couple years and it was my pleasure to finally get the opportunity to do it here.


I would like to thank everyone for the warm welcome and the up dings.

726 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:37:16pm

re: #711 Coracle

Yes, because failing to stimulate growth effectively or fast enough is exactly equivalent to finding "every possible way to retard economic growth and pursue policies to make every American dependent on government to control their lives".

I get it now.

Nevermind the trillions of dollars. Just, nevermind it.

727 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:37:17pm

re: #715 The Shadow Do

"Middle of the road liberal." Let that one sink in folks.

Kinda like "Jumbo Shrimp"

728 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:37:30pm

re: #680 Dark_Falcon

Sweet! Well played, sir!

729 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:37:31pm

re: #723 marjoriemoon

All democrats are liberals.

All democrats are not liberals.

730 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:37:42pm

re: #710 BignJames

Lemme clue ya...Liberal democrats are socialists...at least Bernie Sanders believes in truth in advertising.

Well, OK, you've found us out.

BIG damn sigh.

731 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:38:06pm

re: #729 Coracle

All democrats are not liberals.

Then what makes them democrats?

732 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:38:16pm

re: #688 Charles

On the other hand, all the people hyperventilating over this mind-bogglingly stupid fake outrage won't feel silly at all. They'll just move right on to the next idiotic fake outrage.

Someone should make a list, pizzagate, pirategate,date-nightgate,birthgate, and the rest.

733 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:38:28pm

re: #688 Charles

On the other hand, all the people hyperventilating over this mind-bogglingly stupid fake outrage won't feel silly at all. They'll just move right on to the next idiotic fake outrage.

Do you (or any Lizard) think that there is such a thing as Drama Addiction?

It seems that people need this level of frenzy for some unhealthy reason.

734 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:38:30pm

re: #731 marjoriemoon

Party registration.

735 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:38:53pm

re: #712 gulfloafer

You might want to review his voting record in the senate.

What there is of it? Wait, didn't he vote 'present' every time or something?

736 cliffster  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:39:15pm

re: #718 austin_blue

Notice that those are handled at the local level, not the state and certainly not the federal level. This too is a *good* thing.

The gubment is good at putting out fires, building roads, arresting stupid people, and blowing sh*t up. After that, they need to start standing aside.

737 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:39:27pm

re: #716 Killgore Trout

LOL!
Sarah O'Connor is on her way.
Go wait by the roomba station.
She'll be there, soon...

738 Athos  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:39:44pm

Added to spinoff links - Can we have Buckley back?

I find this frames and matches my viewpoint on this issue - and yes, we need to have this public fight right now.

Over the last few days, Jon Henke has laid out the case for the Right more strongly disavowing outfits like WorldNetDaily that actively peddle Birther nonsense. To the extent the mainstream Right has weighed in, it has been to urge Jon to ignore WND and move on, in the interests avoiding an intra-movement civil war. Some have even tried to subtly distance Jon from the conservative movement, saying his views don't represent those of most conservatives. Many on the Right have made the calculation that however distasteful their views, a public fight with the Birthers just isn't worth it.

As a fiscal and social conservative, I happen to think Jon is completely in the right here, both substantively and strategically. Don't raise the canard that we ought to be attacking Democrats first. Conservatives are entirely within their rights to have public debates over who will publicly represent them, and who will be allowed to affiliate with the conservative movement.

The Birthers are the latest in a long line of paranoid conspiracy believers of the left and right who happen to attach themselves to notions that simply are not true. Descended from the 9/11 Truthers, the LaRouchies, the North American Union buffs, and way back when, the John Birch Society, the Birthers are hardly a new breed in American politics.

Each and every time they have appeared, mainstream conservatives from William F. Buckley to Ronald Reagan have risen to reject these influences -- and I expect that will be the case once again here.

But there is another subtext that makes Jon's appeal more urgent. As a pretty down-the-line conservative, I don't believe I am alone in noting with disappointment the trivialization, excessive sloganeering, and pettiness that has overtaken the movement of late. In "The Joe the Plumberization of the GOP," I argued that conservatives have grown too comfortable with wearing scorn as a badge of honor, content to play sarcastic second fiddle to the dominant culture of academia and Hollywood with second-rate knock-off institutions. A side effect of this has been a tendency to accept conspiracy nuts as a slightly cranky edge case within the broad continuum of conservatism, rather than as a threat to the movement itself...

...The automatic problem that arises when someone who is not a William F. Buckley (and none of us here pretend to be) is that you're instantly tagged a RINO for calling out something that is objectively and demonstrably false. The space between fact and fiction is confused as a litmus test between right and left. But what if the WNDers are not the true conservatives in this argument? What if the actual test of conservatism was not how fervently you oppose Obama, or where you went to school, or where you pray, but how firmly your conservatism is rooted in First Principles and not personalities or conspiracy?

739 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:39:45pm

re: #734 Coracle

Party registration.

lol What does that mean? I'm not going to register Republican if I don't support their platform which is considered conservative. I'm giving these terms a pretty wide umbrella.

740 itellu3times  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:39:46pm

re: #708 ggt

what you said.

but the balance of power between the people and the central government is an old, old issue. maybe the big wheel is turning. maybe we're living in interesting times. rationality is rare in the best of circumstances, which just maybe these are not.

741 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:39:54pm

re: #732 avanti

Someone should make a list, pizzagate, pirategate,date-nightgate,birthgate, and the rest.

Tunagate, helmetgate, bicyclegate, Gatesgate, beergate, gardengate, bowgate...

742 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:40:05pm

re: #737 Floral Giraffe


I'll be back.

743 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:40:22pm

re: #725 Reginald Perrin

Dark_Falcon

It was an easy catch, the intellectual midgets at the deuce were planning it on-line the other night, so all I had to do was sit here with my troll hunters scouting book and wait for a familiar nickname to show up.
Then a quick check of the stalker blog confirmed my suspicion. I have been kicking Eric Odom's trolls a$$es for a couple years and it was my pleasure to finally get the opportunity to do it here.

I would like to thank everyone for the warm welcome and the up dings.

Thanks for the heads-up on that creep. Don't hesitate to let me know whenever you see them pulling that kind of brain-damaged BS.

744 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:40:25pm

re: #735 SanFranciscoZionist

What there is of it? Wait, didn't he vote 'present' every time or something?

We're seeing that same trait now in the health care debate. Constant position changes. trying to please all of the Democrats to vote for the bill...

745 Silvergirl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:40:42pm

re: #716 Killgore Trout

Roomba question: Is it learning?
I bought my roomba yesterday, used it twice and it never found its way back to its charging base. Today I used it twice and it found its way back twice. Coincidence? Does it map out the floorplan? Is it sending my layout to DHS? SkyNet? Should I alert Sarah O'Connor?

Has it started calling you Dave?

746 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:41:09pm

re: #725 Reginald Perrin

Dark_Falcon

It was an easy catch, the intellectual midgets at the deuce were planning it on-line the other night, so all I had to do was sit here with my troll hunters scouting book and wait for a familiar nickname to show up.
Then a quick check of the stalker blog confirmed my suspicion. I have been kicking Eric Odom's trolls a$$es for a couple years and it was my pleasure to finally get the opportunity to do it here.

I would like to thank everyone for the warm welcome and the up dings.

Glad to have you on the team! But who is Eric Odom?

747 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:41:10pm

re: #742 Killgore Trout

Please will you be my Governator?

748 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:41:16pm

re: #716 Killgore Trout

Roomba question: Is it learning?
I bought my roomba yesterday, used it twice and it never found its way back to its charging base. Today I used it twice and it found its way back twice. Coincidence? Does it map out the floorplan? Is it sending my layout to DHS? SkyNet? Should I alert Sarah O'Connor?

It learns, but the light houses help it get home if you are doing a lot of rooms.

749 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:41:21pm

re: #718 austin_blue

How would you like it if police response was based on whether your premium was up to date?

That is largely the case.

I say that having lived with the lazy and corrupt Mpls police, over the years different localities and now the highly professional Golden Valley police, and seeing the differences in property values and tax base between the areas.

750 ShanghaiEd  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:42:03pm

re: #647 DrNaughty

Also many Democrats never considered President Bush's 2000 election "legitimate'...

In obama's case. that's not the issue.. it's the polices he's inflecting on the United States is what I disagree with. Along with his past being that he woudln't pass an FBI background check. His character also seems to be lacking when you hear what he says that does not agree with facts.

You will never hear me posting derogatory about the office he was elected to.

I'm confused, Doc. Can you give me an example of someone posting derogatorily about the office that Bush was elected to?

751 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:42:15pm

re: #725 Reginald Perrin

I have been kicking Eric Odom's trolls a$$es for a couple years

Interesting. Again- welcome to LGF.

752 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:42:17pm

re: #739 marjoriemoon

lol What does that mean? I'm not going to register Republican if I don't support their platform which is considered conservative. I'm giving these terms a pretty wide umbrella.

I personally know members of both ideologies registered in the opposing party so they can have better influence on primaries. One said - and I quote "so I can have a better chance of a real choice next election". The other said, and I paraphrase, "So I can try to get a weaker opponent for my guy to face".

I also personally know centrist members of both parties who scoff at the terms liberal and conservative equally.

753 jcm  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:42:36pm

re: #718 austin_blue

Do you like your police department? Your fire department? Your fresh water supplier? Your sewage processor? Your air traffic control system? Your interstate highway system? Your military?

Cluebat: This country's infrastructure, for the majority of its citizens, is socialized. This is especially true in more urbanized areas. The risks are spread among the populace and profits don't go to third parties who demand an increase in "shareholder value".

It's a *good* thing. How would you like it if police response was based on whether your premium was up to date?

Those are community services, agreed to by the consent of the governed. Socialism concerns the means of production and the top down dictation of distribution of labor, production, and distribution of property.

so⋅cial⋅ism  [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Socialism

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating state, worker or public ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2][3] Contrary to popular belief, socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism.
754 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:42:57pm

For those that may not know...from Mirriam Webster

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

755 jcm  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:43:13pm

re: #742 Killgore Trout

I'll be back.

Just knock, leave the car in the parking lot.

756 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:43:17pm

re: #745 Silvergirl

It won't open the fucking pod bay doors!

757 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:43:20pm

re: #716 Killgore Trout

Roomba question: Is it learning?
I bought my roomba yesterday, used it twice and it never found its way back to its charging base. Today I used it twice and it found its way back twice. Coincidence? Does it map out the floorplan? Is it sending my layout to DHS? SkyNet? Should I alert Sarah O'Connor?

I have friend who loves her Roomba. I'm afraid I use it as a toy to annoy the cat. I was also wondering if it could be programed to chase the dogs.

Speaking of my Cat Overlord. He seems to have developed a (ahem) *thing* for my foot. He's neutered! Never had a cat try to hump me. WTF?

758 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:43:28pm

re: #729 Coracle

All democrats are not liberals.

Some of them are just like Republicans, stupid beyond all belief.

759 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:43:51pm

re: #748 avanti

I haven't put up any lighthouses yet. No batteries.

760 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:44:18pm

re: #754 BignJames

For those that may not know...from Mirriam Webster

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

The obama regime reminds me more of Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed...

761 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:44:28pm

re: #725 Reginald Perrin

Dark_Falcon

It was an easy catch, the intellectual midgets at the deuce were planning it on-line the other night, so all I had to do was sit here with my troll hunters scouting book and wait for a familiar nickname to show up.
Then a quick check of the stalker blog confirmed my suspicion. I have been kicking Eric Odom's trolls a$$es for a couple years and it was my pleasure to finally get the opportunity to do it here.

I would like to thank everyone for the warm welcome and the up dings.

How do we know you are not a double agent ?/

762 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:44:36pm

re: #754 BignJames

For those that may not know...from Mirriam Webster

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zə m
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

According to none of those definitions does Obama seem to qualify.

763 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:44:38pm

re: #736 cliffster

Notice that those are handled at the local level, not the state and certainly not the federal level. This too is a *good* thing.

The gubment is good at putting out fires, building roads, arresting stupid people, and blowing sh*t up. After that, they need to start standing aside.

Why? The military seems to be a relatively efficient organization at "blowing sh*t up", and it is certainly not a local construct. The FAA and FHA aren't local. Why is it that people profiting of your illness and eventual death get pass?

764 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:44:47pm

re: #757 ggt

Odd for a cat. Dogs do that kinda stuff but usually not cats.

765 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:45:03pm

re: #760 DrNaughty

The obama regime reminds me more of Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed...

They can only hope to aspire to Sanford's level of honesty, I'm sure.

766 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:45:14pm

re: #716 Killgore Trout

Roomba question: Is it learning?
I bought my roomba yesterday, used it twice and it never found its way back to its charging base. Today I used it twice and it found its way back twice. Coincidence? Does it map out the floorplan? Is it sending my layout to DHS? SkyNet? Should I alert Sarah O'Connor?

You really need to hook up with a 25 year old smoking hot girl that loves to cook you breakfast at 3am naked...Then takes you to bed.
That way we wouldn't need to listen to anymore stupid robotic vacuum cleaner questions again..
*wink*
/hi KT

767 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:45:35pm

re: #735 SanFranciscoZionist

You're right, my bad. He started his campaign for the presidency in Boston at the 2004 Democratic Convention.

768 Irenicum  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:45:38pm

Mmm. busy thread tonight. Won't try to respond to any particular posts. As to the issue of Obama speaking to school children next week. C-SPAN has a cool link to the other presidents who have done the same thing. You know, those commie symps like Ronald Reagan and Bush the first.
But hey, maybe they were sekrit commies too. After all, they believed in fluoridated water!!!

769 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:45:42pm

re: #734 Coracle

Party registration.

There are quite a few East Coast Lizards that belong to the democrats because there is no republican opposition. A number of them admitted it a week or so ago.

770 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:45:43pm

re: #765 Coracle

They can only hope to aspire to Sanford's level of honesty, I'm sure.

Or Charlie Wrangle's...

771 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:46:02pm

re: #744 DrNaughty

trying to please all of the Democrats to vote for the bill...

Don't need all of them. Just enough will do.

I wish the Republicans would engage the Democrats in debate on this and at least try to have some say in what eventually gets passed. Its not leadership to just sit back and let the dems tee totally f everything up to prove a point.

772 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:46:14pm

re: #757 ggt

I have friend who loves her Roomba. I'm afraid I use it as a toy to annoy the cat. I was also wondering if it could be programed to chase the dogs.

Speaking of my Cat Overlord. He seems to have developed a (ahem) *thing* for my foot. He's neutered! Never had a cat try to hump me. WTF?

I once had a female rabbit attempt to make love to my head. I was lying on the rug when the little paws clamped down on my ears...

773 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:46:18pm

re: #759 Killgore Trout

I haven't put up any lighthouses yet. No batteries.

Check the wife's end table drawer. :)

774 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:46:24pm

re: #764 Killgore Trout

Odd for a cat. Dogs do that kinda stuff but usually not cats.

I KNOW! Maybe he's been hanging around dogs too long?

:)

775 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:46:33pm

re: #766 HoosierHoops

You really need to hook up with a 25 year old smoking hot girl that loves to cook you breakfast at 3am naked...Then takes you to bed.


I'm waiting 'till I'm 80. The future Mrs. Trout hasn't even been born yet.

776 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:46:41pm

re: #765 Coracle

They can only hope to aspire to Sanford's level of honesty, I'm sure.

I'm sorry I meant Timothy Geithner

Wrangle isn't in the Obama regime...

777 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:46:43pm

re: #772 SanFranciscoZionist

I once had a female rabbit attempt to make love to my head. I was lying on the rug when the little paws clamped down on my ears...

ewwwe!

778 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:46:46pm

re: #746 Dark_Falcon

Glad to have you on the team! But who is Eric Odom?

Big "L" libertarian Paulian astroturfer. Kind of looks like a skinhead.

779 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:47:23pm

re: #772 SanFranciscoZionist

That must have been hare raising.

780 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:48:06pm

re: #752 Coracle

On the conservative / liberal divide:
I encourage everyone here to read Thomas Sowell's book, A Conflict of Visions.
Peter Robinson reviewed it in Forbes, and this excerpt will give you a sense of his thinking, if you haven't already read it.


Sowell calls one worldview the “constrained vision.” It sees human nature as flawed or fallen, seeking to make the best of the possibilities that exist within that constraint. The competing worldview, which Sowell terms the “unconstrained vision,” instead sees human nature as capable of continual improvement.

You can trace the constrained vision back to Aristotle; the unconstrained vision to Plato. But the neatest illustration of the two visions occurred during the great upheavals of the 18th century, the American and French revolutions.

The American Revolution embodied the constrained vision. “In the United States,” Sowell says, “it was assumed from the outset that what you needed to do above all was minimize [the damage that could be done by] the flaws in human nature.” The founders did so by composing a constitution of checks and balances. More than two centuries later, their work remains in place.

The French Revolution, by contrast, embodied the unconstrained vision. “In France,” Sowell says, “the idea was that if you put the right people in charge–if you had a political Messiah–then problems would just go away.” The result? The Terror, Napoleon and so many decades of instability that France finally sorted itself out only when Charles de Gaulle declared the Fifth Republic.

781 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:48:06pm

re: #779 esch

That must have been hare raising.

here we go . . .

782 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:48:19pm

re: #779 esch

I hope it did not result in a bunny in the oven.

783 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:48:34pm

re: #771 Mich-again

Don't need all of them. Just enough will do.

I wish the Republicans would engage the Democrats in debate on this and at least try to have some say in what eventually gets passed. Its not leadership to just sit back and let the dems tee totally f everything up to prove a point.

Voting as a block opposing the bill sends a powerful message that they don't accept government control of people's health care.

Nowhere in the bill is any improvement of the care people already receive...

784 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:49:10pm

Pawlenty fell off the turnip truck, jumped aboard the nut wagon.

785 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:49:32pm

re: #752 Coracle

I personally know members of both ideologies registered in the opposing party so they can have better influence on primaries. One said - and I quote "so I can have a better chance of a real choice next election". The other said, and I paraphrase, "So I can try to get a weaker opponent for my guy to face".

I also personally know centrist members of both parties who scoff at the terms liberal and conservative equally.

My feeling is that many, not all but more lately, Dems and Reps are moving towards the center. Either that or they're sort of dipping into each others platforms. Myself, I started posting here way back when because I felt more conservative on foreign policy and I still do, but I'm definitely a liberal in all my other beliefs.

I've never met a soul who voted dishonestly as you're describing. I think the power of the vote is too important and even politically ignorant people realize that. People are dying for that right, or at least getting their ears and noses cut off for it if you follow recent Afghan news.

The centrists I know became Independents and most of them voted Dem in the 2008 election.

786 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:49:49pm

''Life's tough ... it's even tougher if you're stupid..''
-- John Wayne

787 Syrah  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:49:58pm

re: #733 ggt

Do you (or any Lizard) think that there is such a thing as Drama Addiction?

It seems that people need this level of frenzy for some unhealthy reason.

I do.

I don't think the current frenzy is part of an addiction. I think it is more of a frenzy or hysteria that is made easy for people to succumb to because of all of the unknowns that they now have to deal with. They feel that they had more certainty in there lives in the past.

The happy-talk on the economy is not convincing.

The Potus seems to have all the political suave and style of an aloof amateur.

The Congress is run by loons who are rushing bills through too fast to be read.

All of the crazies that run the scarier foreign countries are still crazy, if not even crazier then they have been before.

Fear.

Uncertainty.

Doubt.

It makes people crazy.

788 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:50:30pm

re: #778 Gus 802

Big "L" libertarian Paulian astroturfer. Kind of looks like a skinhead.

Thank you.

789 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:50:57pm

re: #785 marjoriemoon


The centrists I know became Independents and most of them voted Dem in the 2008 election.

Many, I suspect feel buyer's remorse for what they have done to our nation over the past seven months...

790 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:51:02pm

re: #787 Syrah

I do.

I don't think the current frenzy is part of an addiction. I think it is more of a frenzy or hysteria that is made easy for people to succumb to because of all of the unknowns that they now have to deal with. They feel that they had more certainty in there lives in the past.

The happy-talk on the economy is not convincing.

The Potus seems to have all the political suave and style of an aloof amateur.

The Congress is run by loons who are rushing bills through too fast to be read.

All of the crazies that run the scarier foreign countries are still crazy, if not even crazier then they have been before.

Fear.

Uncertainty.

Doubt.

It makes people crazy.

And to think, in many ways, it was worse during the Civil War. We will survive and eventually thrive!

791 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:51:18pm

re: #780 jaunte

On the conservative / liberal divide:
I encourage everyone here to read Thomas Sowell's book, A Conflict of Visions.
Peter Robinson reviewed it in Forbes, and this excerpt will give you a sense of his thinking, if you haven't already read it.

Sowell calls one worldview the “constrained vision.” It sees human nature as flawed or fallen, seeking to make the best of the possibilities that exist within that constraint. The competing worldview, which Sowell terms the “unconstrained vision,” instead sees human nature as capable of continual improvement.
You can trace the constrained vision back to Aristotle; the unconstrained vision to Plato. But the neatest illustration of the two visions occurred during the great upheavals of the 18th century, the American and French revolutions.

The American Revolution embodied the constrained vision. “In the United States,” Sowell says, “it was assumed from the outset that what you needed to do above all was minimize [the damage that could be done by] the flaws in human nature.” The founders did so by composing a constitution of checks and balances. More than two centuries later, their work remains in place.

The French Revolution, by contrast, embodied the unconstrained vision. “In France,” Sowell says, “the idea was that if you put the right people in charge–if you had a political Messiah–then problems would just go away.” The result? The Terror, Napoleon and so many decades of instability that France finally sorted itself out only when Charles de Gaulle declared the Fifth Republic.

A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles

There's also this great interview with Sowell on the book that Syrah shared with me and got me into the book:

792 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:51:28pm

re: #783 DrNaughty

Voting as a block opposing the bill sends a powerful message that they don't accept government control of people's health care.

Then who needs them. They can all go home and save the taxpayers lots of money and we'll just enter a nay for every piece of legislation that percolates up to a vote. Maybe you are on to something there. Think of the reduced carbon footprint.

793 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:30pm

re: #775 Killgore Trout

I'm waiting 'till I'm 80. The future Mrs. Trout hasn't even been born yet.

Call your Congressman!
There is help on the way...It's the all American stimulus package...Don't forget you paid your taxes...

794 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:33pm

re: #762 SanFranciscoZionist

According to none of those definitions does Obama seem to qualify.


Huh? Govt takeover of health care doesn't count?

795 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:36pm

re: #792 Mich-again

Then who needs them. They can all go home and save the taxpayers lots of money and we'll just enter a nay for every piece of legislation that percolates up to a vote. Maybe you are on to something there. Think of the reduced carbon footprint.

I have not seen any evidence of Obama courting any Republican support.

His constant position changes are to placate the Blue Dogs...

796 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:40pm

I think far too many people need something to feel really passionate about to give their lives purpose. So they find it.

In many cases it's some form of hate. Because hate self-reinforces so well. [A-Z]DS.

797 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:41pm

re: #780 jaunte

Finally sorted itself out? I think they may have relapsed a time or two.

798 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:46pm

re: #785 marjoriemoon

Takes quite an imagination to see centrism in the current political environment.

799 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:46pm

re: #788 Dark_Falcon

Thank you.

YW

He's also here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

800 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:50pm

re: #791 Sharmuta

A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles

There's also this great interview with Sowell on the book that Syrah shared with me and got me into the book:


[Video]

SHAMELESS BOOK CATEGORY SPIN-OFF PLUG:

And, Lizards, Sharmuta started a discusson on this book in the Book Category. It encompasses many weeks, as comments are suspended after a while. Do some searching and learn more!

801 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:52:58pm

re: #785 marjoriemoon

My feeling is that many, not all but more lately, Dems and Reps are moving towards the center. Either that or they're sort of dipping into each others platforms. Myself, I started posting here way back when because I felt more conservative on foreign policy and I still do, but I'm definitely a liberal in all my other beliefs.

I've never met a soul who voted dishonestly as you're describing. I think the power of the vote is too important and even politically ignorant people realize that. People are dying for that right, or at least getting their ears and noses cut off for it if you follow recent Afghan news.

The centrists I know became Independents and most of them voted Dem in the 2008 election.

Every area of the country is different. All people are different, even though they are also sometimes similar. The party crossvoters were tactical voters for the primaries. One could even say they were maximizing their power by exerting their influence where they thought they could do the most good. That's not dishonest. They certainly voted their ideologies when election time came.

But it also goes as empirical evidence that dems are not by definition libs, and reps are not by definition cons.

802 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:53:27pm

re: #730 SanFranciscoZionist

Realizing the problem is the first step;
Then when you can face a crowd of your peers and say;

"I am a liberal democrat, with socialist leanings. This I admit freely",

you will get a pin. and a person to call if you want to socialize medicine. You are on your way.

12 steps to republican sobriety.

803 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:53:34pm

re: #798 The Shadow Do

Takes quite an imagination to see centrism in the current political environment.

Especially when obama pursues policies that are from the far left...

804 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:53:35pm

re: #787 Syrah

Speaking of you and Sowell- want to go discuss some visions?

805 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:54:10pm

re: #800 ggt

SHAMELESS BOOK CATEGORY SPIN-OFF PLUG:

And, Lizards, Sharmuta started a discusson on this book in the Book Category. It encompasses many weeks, as comments are suspended after a while. Do some searching and learn more!

I'm doing it- book chat on visions coming up.

806 TheMatrix31  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:54:13pm

I'm outta here...goin' to dinner after-all!

See ya dudes.

807 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:54:16pm

re: #802 swamprat

Realizing the problem is the first step;
Then when you can face a crowd of your peers and say;

you will get a pin. and a person to call if you want to socialize medicine. You are on your way.

12 steps to republican sobriety.

Step One is admitting there is a problem . . .

808 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:54:18pm

re: #754 BignJames

For those that may not know...from Mirriam Webster

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zə m
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

First, I asked YOUR interpretation, not Mr. Webster.

Please tell me how #1 above is different than my explanation of #723. That would also include the FDA and the ATF.

Or do you think that socialism = communism (which is #2 and #3).

809 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:54:47pm

re: #797 gulfloafer

Finally sorted itself out? I think they may have relapsed a time or two.

Since 1958?

810 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:55:05pm

re: #803 DrNaughty

Especially when obama pursues policies that are from the far left...

Countered by Glen Beck?

811 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:55:36pm

re: #787 Syrah

I do.

I don't think the current frenzy is part of an addiction. I think it is more of a frenzy or hysteria that is made easy for people to succumb to because of all of the unknowns that they now have to deal with. They feel that they had more certainty in there lives in the past.

The happy-talk on the economy is not convincing.

The Potus seems to have all the political suave and style of an aloof amateur.

The Congress is run by loons who are rushing bills through too fast to be read.

All of the crazies that run the scarier foreign countries are still crazy, if not even crazier then they have been before.

Fear.

Uncertainty.

Doubt.

It makes people crazy.

Isn't this how the Salem witch trials got going?

812 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:55:40pm

re: #810 The Shadow Do

Countered by Glen Beck?


Glenn Beck is a commentator. obama is the President...

Big difference...

813 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:55:47pm

Night all..

Enjoyed... as always. However Mrs Naughty is demanding my presence in the other room

814 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:56:13pm

re: #805 Sharmuta

I'm doing it- book chat on visions coming up.

I still haven't gotten to that one. I have to take Sowell in small doses. One book every few months. I'm still trying to get thru Basic Economics. I really, really enjoyed his autobiography, BTW.

I'm in a real fiction mode right now. Found short stories on audible.com for under $1. Classical Literature! Many by authors I've known, but now get to enjoy more of!

815 Syrah  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:56:27pm

re: #796 esch

I think far too many people need something to feel really passionate about to give their lives purpose. So they find it.

In many cases it's some form of hate. Because hate self-reinforces so well. [A-Z]DS.

Many people need to feel relevant.

816 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:56:51pm

re: #789 DrNaughty

Many, I suspect feel buyer's remorse for what they have done to our nation over the past seven months...

Just a opinion from a leftie if it matters. None of my friends that voted for Obama are unhappy, we voted for a liberal agenda that included health care for example.
It's natural that the more he pleases us, the unhappier those on the right will be. The wheel will spin to the right again someday, and it'll be my turn to be unhappy.

817 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:57:17pm

re: #766 HoosierHoops

Do tell us more...
*wink*

818 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:57:32pm

re: #795 DrNaughty

I have not seen any evidence of Obama courting any Republican support.

The GOP shouldn't need any "courting" to get involved with forming legislation. Its what they are elected for and paid to do. I didn't say they need to support Obama. I said they need to get involved to try to cut the losses.

819 Coracle  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:57:38pm

re: #789 DrNaughty

Many, I suspect feel buyer's remorse for what they have done to our nation over the past seven months...

Feh. Any independent who won't give a president at least half a term to judge performance not an independent.

And with that, I'm off to bed. Night, Lizards.

820 nospamformo  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:58:21pm

re: #762 SanFranciscoZionist

According to none of those definitions does Obama seem to qualify.


The means of production - Chrylser, GM...The Banks..

The Distribution of Goods - The healthcare system...

821 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:59:01pm

re: #794 BignJames

Huh? Govt takeover of health care doesn't count?

Or General Motors, or AIG.

Or imposing more regulations on the rail industry (on top of cap & trade eroding multiple traffic/revenue sources from them).

822 DrNaughty  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:59:22pm

re: #818 Mich-again

The GOP shouldn't need any "courting" to get involved with forming legislation. Its what they are elected for and paid to do. I didn't say they need to support Obama. I said they need to get involved to try to cut the losses.

When Queen Nancy won't give the GOP a voice in the formulation of legislation it's hard to be "involved"..

ok last call.. nite all

823 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:59:29pm

re: #789 DrNaughty

Many, I suspect feel buyer's remorse for what they have done to our nation over the past seven months...

I don't think that's true. Democrats may be disappointed in how things are going, but they haven't abandoned him.

What did Bush do to our nation to get us in this predicament?

824 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 9:59:30pm

re: #814 ggt

I still haven't gotten to that one. I have to take Sowell in small doses. One book every few months. I'm still trying to get thru Basic Economics. I really, really enjoyed his autobiography, BTW.

I'm in a real fiction mode right now. Found short stories on audible.com for under $1. Classical Literature! Many by authors I've known, but now get to enjoy more of!

I want to talk to you about it, but lets do it in the book thread I made.

825 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:00:19pm

re: #808 marjoriemoon

First, I asked YOUR interpretation, not Mr. Webster.

Please tell me how #1 above is different than my explanation of #723. That would also include the FDA and the ATF.

Or do you think that socialism = communism (which is #2 and #3).


Did the man not say "I want to spread the wealth around" ?

That's a DEFINITION not an INTERPRETATION

826 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:00:45pm

re: #812 DrNaughty

Glenn Beck is a commentator. obama is the President...

Big difference...

Champions both! Of anything except centrism that is.

827 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:02:22pm

re: #816 avanti

Just a opinion from a leftie if it matters. None of my friends that voted for Obama are unhappy, we voted for a liberal agenda that included health care for example.
It's natural that the more he pleases us, the unhappier those on the right will be. The wheel will spin to the right again someday, and it'll be my turn to be unhappy.

Well of course it matters.

Interestingly enough, most of the Obama supporters I know are very unhappy with him and almost all of the promo in my extremely liberal neighborhood is gone.

828 Silvergirl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:02:31pm

re: #768 Irenicum

Mmm. busy thread tonight. Won't try to respond to any particular posts. As to the issue of Obama speaking to school children next week. C-SPAN has a cool link to the other presidents who have done the same thing. You know, those commie symps like Ronald Reagan and Bush the first.
But hey, maybe they were sekrit commies too. After all, they believed in fluoridated water!!!

I kind of remember that now. I had been thinking this was a first. I know Nancy Reagan spoke to the kids at their schools and had all those TV spots and the whole Just Say No campaign. Hence the drug free country we now live in. I guess those talks to the students really work!

829 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:02:35pm

re: #818 Mich-again

The GOP shouldn't need any "courting" to get involved with forming legislation. Its what they are elected for and paid to do. I didn't say they need to support Obama. I said they need to get involved to try to cut the losses.

Olivia Snowe fan?

830 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:02:59pm

re: #809 jaunte

They still come off thinking they know what's best for everyone else every now and again.

831 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:03:03pm

re: #780 jaunte

On the conservative / liberal divide:
I encourage everyone here to read Thomas Sowell's book, A Conflict of Visions.
Peter Robinson reviewed it in Forbes, and this excerpt will give you a sense of his thinking, if you haven't already read it.

I would like to read the book.

I have to say, though, that many of the things I believe that are seen as 'liberal' as well as the ones that are 'conservative' grow out of a 'constrained vision', albeit maybe not quite the one Sowell envisions.

I think, also, that the contrast between the English Americas and France goes back farther than the eighteenth century. The English were practicing creating a law-based society of assigned rights and limited powers well before the Magna Carta. The revolutionary generation inherited centuries of scaffolding that allowed them to make a leap further without the chaos that followed in France.

832 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:03:24pm

re: #753 jcm

Ah. That's the question of the day!

Let me frame it like this:

Socialized local services like fire, police, water and sewage processing serve the common good. We all benefit when the town doesn't burn down, criminals are apprehended, we don't get sick from bad water or standing sewage in the streets. It allows us to be a community and for our economy to keep humming because order and public health is maintained.

Why should health care be different? We all know that a healthy population is a more productive population. Production is profit for industry. We are perfectly happy not to outsource the FAA or the military (can you imagine the cost if Xe Corp was fighting the wars in A&I?). Why is it that the insurance industry, of all of our major quality of life industries in this country, gets to privatize the profit and socialize the cost of the citizens it refuses to insure? That's insane and unsustainable.

833 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:03:38pm

re: #829 The Shadow Do

Olivia Snowe fan?

Maybe. I don't know much about her.

834 Silvergirl  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:03:41pm

re: #829 The Shadow Do

Olivia Snowe fan?

Olympia?

835 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:03:50pm

Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed.

Now, we are trusting the economy of our country, our banking system, our auto industry and possibly our health plans to the same nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling whiskey?!"

836 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:03:52pm

re: #600 Noam Sayin'

I've heard the V-Rod does well in both arenas.

837 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:04:30pm

re: #831 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I talk you into the book thread too?

838 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:05:23pm

re: #745 Silvergirl

Has it started calling you Dave?

"I'm afraid I can't vacuum that, Dave"

839 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:05:35pm

re: #830 gulfloafer

Well it is the home of chauvinisme!

840 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:05:40pm

re: #834 Silvergirl

Yes, thanks for the correction

841 ShanghaiEd  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:05:51pm

re: #794 BignJames

Huh? Govt takeover of health care doesn't count?

The government isn't "taking over" health care. Health care will still be provided by physicians at privately-owned medical facilities, as always. Socialism is about public ownership of the means of production. If it ain't publicly owned, it ain't socialism.

842 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:06:07pm

re: #827 esch

Well of course it matters.

Interestingly enough, most of the Obama supporters I know are very unhappy with him and almost all of the promo in my extremely liberal neighborhood is gone.

Maybe I'm not liberal enough to be upset with what some on the far left perceive as following Bush's policies on Afghanistan for example, or dumping the public option on health care if needed.

843 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:06:09pm

re: #825 BignJames

Did the man not say "I want to spread the wealth around" ?

That's a DEFINITION not an INTERPRETATION

There was a time in this country where the bulk of us were middle class with a small percentage of poverty and wealth. I'm not a poli sci major so I can't explain the mechanism of all this... I'm talking 30-40 years ago. Many things have changed, certainly technology wise, but my point is that homes were affordable. Jobs had good salaries and benefits. That wasn't a communist society was it?

844 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:06:27pm

re: #817 Floral Giraffe

Do tell us more...
*wink*

LOL
What more do you want? 6 months ago I told the story of getting caught in College naked at Goats rock completely doing the wild thing by the Sheriff's dept at 3am...There is no shrinkage like a 3am bust at the beach with your girlfriend...Gawd...Did they need to turn on every light within 2 miles? I think my civil rights were violated just from the laughter...
/she was cute

845 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:06:28pm

re: #832 austin_blue

Ah. That's the question of the day!

Let me frame it like this:

Socialized local services like fire, police, water and sewage processing serve the common good. We all benefit when the town doesn't burn down, criminals are apprehended, we don't get sick from bad water or standing sewage in the streets. It allows us to be a community and for our economy to keep humming because order and public health is maintained.

Why should health care be different? We all know that a healthy population is a more productive population. Production is profit for industry. We are perfectly happy not to outsource the FAA or the military (can you imagine the cost if Xe Corp was fighting the wars in A&I?). Why is it that the insurance industry, of all of our major quality of life industries in this country, gets to privatize the profit and socialize the cost of the citizens it refuses to insure? That's insane and unsustainable.


So you want some govt. drone doing your vasectomy?

846 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:06:37pm

Mayor of London calls for a day of fasting to 'help understand Muslims'

London Mayor Boris Johnson today encouraged people to undergo a day of fasting to help them gain a better understanding of their 'Muslim neighbour'.

Speaking during a visit to the East London Mosque and London Muslim Centre he said Muslims in the capital were 'challenging traditional stereotypes' to show they wanted to be part of the mainstream.

Mr Johnson's visit coincided with the holy period of Ramadan in which participating Muslims fast from dawn until sunset.

He said: 'Whether it's in theatre, comedy, sports, music or politics, Muslims are challenging the traditional stereotypes and showing that they are, and want to be, a part of the mainstream community.

'That's why I urge people, particularly during Ramadan, to find out more about Islam, increase your understanding and learning, even fast for a day with your Muslim neighbour and break your fast at the local mosque.
The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson

'Challenging stereotypes': London Mayor Boris Johnson has urged non-Muslims to fast for a day so they can understand the religion better

'I would be very surprised if you didn't find that you share more in common than you thought.'

He added: 'Muslims are at the heart of every aspect of society. Their contribution is something that all Londoners benefit from.

'Muslim police officers, doctors, scientists and teachers are an essential part of the fabric of London.

'Islamic finance is contributing to the economy by changing the way Londoners invest, save, borrow and spend.

847 gulfloafer  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:06:56pm

Have a good night everyone. Keep the rabbit at arms length SF Zionist.

848 Syrah  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:07:02pm

re: #804 Sharmuta

Speaking of you and Sowell- want to go discuss some visions?

I will be able to join in tomorrow.


Unfortunately I am going to have to sign off for the evening in the next few minutes.

My Saturday starts very early.

Do you have a particular idea or focus in mind?

849 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:07:21pm

re: #835 Racer X

Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed.

Now, we are trusting the economy of our country, our banking system, our auto industry and possibly our health plans to the same nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling whiskey?!"

They should have put Bill Clinton in charge, they be bigger than Microsoft by now.

850 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:07:40pm

re: #846 HelloDare

Mayor of London calls for a day of fasting to 'help understand Muslims'

London Mayor Boris Johnson today encouraged people to undergo a day of fasting to help them gain a better understanding of their 'Muslim neighbour'.

Speaking during a visit to the East London Mosque and London Muslim Centre he said Muslims in the capital were 'challenging traditional stereotypes' to show they wanted to be part of the mainstream.

Mr Johnson's visit coincided with the holy period of Ramadan in which participating Muslims fast from dawn until sunset.

He said: 'Whether it's in theatre, comedy, sports, music or politics, Muslims are challenging the traditional stereotypes and showing that they are, and want to be, a part of the mainstream community.

'That's why I urge people, particularly during Ramadan, to find out more about Islam, increase your understanding and learning, even fast for a day with your Muslim neighbour and break your fast at the local mosque.
The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson

'Challenging stereotypes': London Mayor Boris Johnson has urged non-Muslims to fast for a day so they can understand the religion better

'I would be very surprised if you didn't find that you share more in common than you thought.'

He added: 'Muslims are at the heart of every aspect of society. Their contribution is something that all Londoners benefit from.

'Muslim police officers, doctors, scientists and teachers are an essential part of the fabric of London.

'Islamic finance is contributing to the economy by changing the way Londoners invest, save, borrow and spend.

With the food over there, it shouldn't be that hard.

851 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:08:25pm

re: #794 BignJames

Huh? Govt takeover of health care doesn't count?

No. Regulation of for-profit industries, which is what we're actually talking about, is a fairly well-accepted part of of modern life. It does not imply a sea change in our core economic system.

852 swamprat  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:08:29pm

re: #832 austin_blue


There indeed is the rub: at what junction does socialism cease to be a boon, and begin to be a burden. Too much socialism is like too much sugar. It can be good in the right doses, but it can also be detrimental. The question is, at what point?

853 avanti  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:08:32pm

Night all, great discussion this evening.

854 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:09:59pm

re: #836 Van Helsing

Thanks.

855 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:10:33pm

re: #802 swamprat

Realizing the problem is the first step;
Then when you can face a crowd of your peers and say;


you will get a pin. and a person to call if you want to socialize medicine. You are on your way.

12 steps to republican sobriety.

First the lightbulb has to want to change.

856 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:10:36pm

re: #833 Mich-again

Maybe. I don't know much about her.

Are you comfortable witha trigger that would mandate single payer insurance (taxpayer funded) if a private insurer did not measure up to nebulous Democrat expectations?

This is called bipartisanship I.e. Snowe

857 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:10:39pm

re: #753 jcm

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating state, worker or public ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2][3] Contrary to popular belief, socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism.

Indeed. The political systems generally associated with socialism tend toward the authoritarian if not totalitarian models.

Human nature at this point in our development is not suited for socialism. Likely, it never will be.

858 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:10:40pm

re: #848 Syrah

Why don't you pick- I think I picked last time with page 125. This will also give you until tomorrow to think of a topic- surprise me! ;)

Maybe some others will chip in their thoughts- who knows?

859 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:10:46pm

re: #845 BignJames

So you want some govt. drone doing your vasectomy?

Depends how badly you want it. Nobody is forcing you to get one... if its a free one from the gov't or $10,000 for the doctor of your choice - its your call to make. At least this way you have an option...

-PH

860 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:11:03pm

re: #854 Noam Sayin'

But I'm not into Harleys.

But I've been thinking them over again recently.

861 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:11:09pm

I am off to Kayenta, Arizona for a special drive. Ugh, driving all night up to the plateau. I will bring back pictures of Monument Valley for you all to see. Play nice

862 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:11:12pm

re: #832 austin_blue

But almost none of those are socialized on a national level. They're all managed and paid for locally by municipalities, and there is great variation of quality and availability between them. Competition is a good thing.

The exception, the FAA by which you are referring to the national Air Traffic Control system, really only has a small number of facilities in comparison. And they have the classic fiefdom and budgetary issues faced by a unionized workforce regulated by a bloated bureaucracy.

863 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:11:42pm

re: #841 ShanghaiEd

I don't know the #s, but I suspect a fair percentage of Hospital systems are owned by local govts.

864 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:13:10pm

re: #823 marjoriemoon

I don't think that's true. Democrats may be disappointed in how things are going, but they haven't abandoned him.

What did Bush do to our nation to get us in this predicament?

MM, don't be silly. The complete collapse of the economy was not Bush's fault. It IS however Obama's fault that he hasn't fixed it in half a year.

///

865 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:13:11pm

re: #798 The Shadow Do

Takes quite an imagination to see centrism in the current political environment.

That's true, but that's pretty recent. I was thinking more the last few years overall.

866 Opilio  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:13:33pm

re: #768 Irenicum

But hey, maybe they were sekrit commies too. After all, they believed in fluoridated water!!!

Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.
                                          —Gen. Jack D. Ripper

867 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:13:52pm

re: #851 SanFranciscoZionist

You think there's no regulation now?

868 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:14:02pm

re: #835 Racer X

Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed.

Of course. Who the hell, in their right mind, would want to patronize a brothel run and surveilled by the gov't? That would be nuts. :)

869 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:15:11pm

re: #825 BignJames

Did the man not say "I want to spread the wealth around" ?

That's a DEFINITION not an INTERPRETATION

No more than 'trickle-down' economics.

Should he have said he wanted to concentrate the wealth in the hands of a tiny portion of society?

870 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:15:39pm

re: #832 austin_blue

Socialized local services like fire, police, water and sewage processing serve the common good. We all benefit when the town doesn't burn down, criminals are apprehended, we don't get sick from bad water or standing sewage in the streets. It allows us to be a community and for our economy to keep humming because order and public health is maintained.

Why should health care be different? We all know that a healthy population is a more productive population. Production is profit for industry. We are perfectly happy not to outsource the FAA or the military (can you imagine the cost if Xe Corp was fighting the wars in A&I?). Why is it that the insurance industry, of all of our major quality of life industries in this country, gets to privatize the profit and socialize the cost of the citizens it refuses to insure? That's insane and unsustainable.

Interesting point.

I see a few problems through. In order to "maintain public health", the government is going to HAVE to become more involved in every day activities. No more chocolate and sweets for you! No more beer for your husband. Does that sound fair?

Granted sometimes these things are OK for some, but for others they may be bad. Do we really want the government telling us what to eat? When to exercise? I know Americans can be fat and lazy, but you really have to be self motivated or forget it.

Another problem I have with it is public health care means bigger government. This is not like making a bigger police department of adding more firefighters. Those aspects of government were absolutely mandatory. Health care is a perk. it is not mandatory.

Building government run health care will be ungodly expensive.

I vote no.

Lets try again in a year or two.

871 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:15:58pm

re: #832 austin_blue

Why should health care be different? We all know that a healthy population is a more productive population.

The problem with your argument is that the availability of health care is not directly tied to a healthy population. The health care industry addresses sick people. Healthy people on the other hand don't need health care. If you really think the goal for the government is to promote a healthy population, then maybe the congress should make cigarettes, Big Macs, alcohol and lack of sleep illegal. Providing free health care after the fact is a weak way to solve the problem.

Even if every single person in the Country had their own personal doctor and hospital staff at their disposal it wouldn't make them "healthy" if they also drank a lot, smoked two packs a day and ate like a pig.

872 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:16:07pm

re: #801 Coracle

Every area of the country is different. All people are different, even though they are also sometimes similar. The party crossvoters were tactical voters for the primaries. One could even say they were maximizing their power by exerting their influence where they thought they could do the most good. That's not dishonest. They certainly voted their ideologies when election time came.

But it also goes as empirical evidence that dems are not by definition libs, and reps are not by definition cons.

So... you're saying Republicans registered Democrat, and then voted Republican? or the other way around. It's either late or I'm not following you or both lol

873 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:16:17pm

Boy... some of you guys should really spend some time in a real socialist environment. Take it from a former commie - this country isn't in any danger of even being remotely socialist or communist. Using these terms this loosely cheapens them - much the same way liberals cheapened the term "facism".

We're so spoiled sometimes...

-PH

874 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:16:40pm

OMFG...

I've got something absoluty hilarious re: Alex Jones to post. I'll hold it for the LNDT to give me time to get through this video. It actually involves something friends of mine and I were involved in and Alex Jones and the kook he has on are making it out to be something totally ridiculous.

875 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:16:47pm

re: #837 Sharmuta

Can I talk you into the book thread too?

Maybe. I should probably read it first.

876 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:17:08pm

re: #869 SanFranciscoZionist


A politician has said that?

877 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:17:42pm

re: #875 SanFranciscoZionist

No- come on in, and bring your comment about the governments of europe with you. It will be fun.

878 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:18:22pm

re: #835 Racer X

Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed.

Now, we are trusting the economy of our country, our banking system, our auto industry and possibly our health plans to the same nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling whiskey?!"

Man, that is disturbing, if the government pimps can't manage a whore house...

879 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:18:23pm

re: #845 BignJames

So you want some govt. drone doing your vasectomy?

If I wanted to get a vasectomy? At like, say, Bethesda? You betcha.

My father's end of life care was at Bethesda before his burial in Arlington. You could not find a better medical facility anywhere. Numerous Marines who had been blown up in Iraq were there for treatment of horrible injuries and would routinely come up and visit with my dad and trade war stories. It was heartbreaking and inspiring to see those kids, many who had lost one or more limbs, talking smack with this old fighter pilot. It was "Ooh-Rah" all around. We laughed. We cried. I fetched them food and drink. They lit up my dad's last days. He was among warriors and was content

880 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:18:34pm

re: #874 ArchangelMichael

Charles, new thread please. I can't wait to hear what AM has to say.

881 Opilio  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:18:35pm

re: #845 BignJames

So you want some govt. drone doing your vasectomy colonoscopy?

882 jaunte  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:19:09pm

Goodnight all. Have a good weekend.


Where fear is present, wisdom cannot be.
--Lactantius

883 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:19:22pm

re: #881 Opilio

IRS?

884 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:20:29pm

re: #870 Racer X

Interesting point.

I see a few problems through. In order to "maintain public health", the government is going to HAVE to become more involved in every day activities. No more chocolate and sweets for you! No more beer for your husband. Does that sound fair?

Granted sometimes these things are OK for some, but for others they may be bad. Do we really want the government telling us what to eat? When to exercise? I know Americans can be fat and lazy, but you really have to be self motivated or forget it.

Another problem I have with it is public health care means bigger government. This is not like making a bigger police department of adding more firefighters. Those aspects of government were absolutely mandatory. Health care is a perk. it is not mandatory.

Building government run health care will be ungodly expensive.

I vote no.

Lets try again in a year or two.

Saying healthcare is a perk, and police and firefighters are mandatory is completely arbitrary. What is mandatory versus a perk is defined by the society, not by dictum. If Americans decide that healthcare is mandatory - than it is mandatory - as much a basic service as fighting fires or paving roads.

885 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:21:03pm

America is broke. There is no money for "health care". Everyone will have to get by with the same level of health care they currently have for now.

886 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:21:20pm

re: #867 BignJames

You think there's no regulation now?

No, didn't say that.

887 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:22:56pm

re: #874 ArchangelMichael

OMFG...

I've got something absoluty hilarious re: Alex Jones to post. I'll hold it for the LNDT to give me time to get through this video. It actually involves something friends of mine and I were involved in and Alex Jones and the kook he has on are making it out to be something totally ridiculous.

Please post it on both threads. This I can't wait for.

888 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:23:07pm

re: #878 The Shadow Do

Man, that is disturbing, if the government pimps can't manage a whore house...

I'm sure they could run it just fine. Who knows more about whoring than politicians?

But still, who wants to go to a whore house run by G-Men. Seriously, that sounds like a bad idea. Would you gamble at a casino run by a religious organization whose church is involved in your every day life?

/Bingo!

889 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:23:32pm

re: #879 austin_blue


Sorry you lost your Dad...but your point is? Getting treatment at Bethesda is part of a contract honored for putting your life on the line in service to this country...it is earned.

890 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:23:49pm

re: #876 BignJames

A politician has said that?

No, and they wouldn't. One of the strengths of the U.S. has always been its strong middle-class, which is what you get when the economy spreads the wealth around.

891 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:04pm

re: #885 Racer X

America is broke. There is no money for "health care". Everyone will have to get by with the same level of health care they currently have for now.

I think we need to steal the "moral imperative" language but apply it to balancing the budget.

892 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:26pm

re: #888 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm sure they could run it just fine. Who knows more about whoring than politicians?

But still, who wants to go to a whore house run by G-Men. Seriously, that sounds like a bad idea. Would you gamble at a casino run by a religious organization whose church is involved in your every day life?

/Bingo!

Are they good looking Gmen? Dark glasses, uniforms... could be interesting.

893 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:36pm

re: #882 jaunte

Goodnight all. Have a good weekend.

You too and stay safe. We're going to visit family near Warren Ohio in the morning. And its the first day of college football so I expect nothing but ridicule for Michigan's crying coach from all those Buckeye fan out-laws of mine. Can't wait for that. But we're planning on lunch at the Hot Dog Shoppe and dinner at Quaker Steak and Lube in Sharon Pa. Atomic Wings and Budweiser. Perfect.

894 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:24:49pm

re: #879 austin_blue

That was so nice to hear.
Sniff.
Sorry your Dad's gone.

895 DailyCOS  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:25:04pm

People... the problem is not with Obama giving a speech to the kids. It's the stupid lesson plan that Dept of Ed put together. A simple speech encouraging kids to stay in school and do well is all that is needed. A lesson plan put together by nanny state bureaucrats asking kids "how they can help the President" is what bothers me and many others.

896 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:25:14pm

re: #887 Dark_Falcon

I know. I was just swinging by for a quick minute, but now I'm on the edge of my seat.

897 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:25:24pm

re: #877 Sharmuta

No- come on in, and bring your comment about the governments of europe with you. It will be fun.

OK. Not tonight, I'm wrecked. Do we meet at some particular time, or just comment as we go?

898 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:25:27pm

re: #884 placeholder

Saying healthcare is a perk, and police and firefighters are mandatory is completely arbitrary. What is mandatory versus a perk is defined by the society, not by dictum. If Americans decide that healthcare is mandatory - than it is mandatory - as much a basic service as fighting fires or paving roads.

Perhaps. But my point is everyone has "'health care". Walk in to any hospital with an emergency and you will get treated. It may be very expensive and it may take a while, but you will get treatment. If you want better treatment or a lower price than that typically means join a group and obtain lower premiums.

I just think going to single payer universal health care is bad news.

899 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:26:08pm

re: #885 Racer X

IF we can afford the premiums. And IF the service is still offered...

900 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:26:12pm

re: #891 Sharmuta

I think we need to steal the "moral imperative" language but apply it to balancing the budget.

Upding!

901 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:26:23pm

re: #885 Racer X

America is broke. There is no money for "health care". Everyone will have to get by with the same level of health care they currently have for now.

We're not broke... In fact, we remain the wealthiest country in the world. This is more a question of how we decide to spend our tax money. And in a democracy, unfortunately, individuals - even in large groups - don't get to choose. We elect a government that we hope spends the money wisely. Unfortunately, like most governments, our does not spend it as wisely as it should. I find healthcare about as good a waste of money as any number of other items...including wars, farm subsidies, pork, and god knows what else. But i don't get to pick and choose.

-PH

902 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:26:58pm

re: #885 Racer X

America is broke. There is no money for "health care". Everyone will have to get by with the same level of health care they currently have for now.

Agreed. There is no money for a major new program. We can make small changes but no more that that.

903 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:26:58pm

re: #888 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm sure they could run it just fine. Who knows more about whoring than politicians?

But still, who wants to go to a whore house run by G-Men. Seriously, that sounds like a bad idea. Would you gamble at a casino run by a religious organization whose church is involved in your every day life?

/Bingo!


Not much on bingo, but if the Baptists want to set up a few blackjack tables, and maybe some Keno cards, well then, I'm in! the house can get its vig.

904 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:27:18pm

re: #891 Sharmuta

I think we need to steal the "moral imperative" language but apply it to balancing the budget.

Quite Concur.

905 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:27:31pm

re: #884 placeholder

You don't have a right to a firefighter or a police officer. They're not slaves. They could all quit tomorrow and there's nothing you could do but try to hire new ones. The fact that your city collect property taxes to pay voluntarily for a shared service doesn't make it a right. It's a privilege of living in that area and you pay taxes for it voluntarily.

Municipalities and states are perfectly free to approach health care in the same way and contract providers paid for by property taxes. I have yet to hear of one that didn't go broke though.

906 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:27:41pm

re: #897 SanFranciscoZionist

ask me for the link tomorrow when we run into each other, I'll link it again. Spinoffs are open for a week, so Syrah and I would stick the book chats in our favorites, and go back and forth for a few days sometimes. I can always just post a new spinoff too. Since I don't have a blog, I pimp books. ;)

907 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:27:44pm

re: #860 Noam Sayin'

You would look GOOD on a Harley!
Hell, you looked good on a scooter!
:)

908 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:27:47pm

re: #901 placeholder

We're not broke... In fact, we remain the wealthiest country in the world. This is more a question of how we decide to spend our tax money. And in a democracy, unfortunately, individuals - even in large groups - don't get to choose. We elect a government that we hope spends the money wisely. Unfortunately, like most governments, our does not spend it as wisely as it should. I find healthcare about as good a waste of money as any number of other items...including wars, farm subsidies, pork, and god knows what else. But i don't get to pick and choose.

-PH

You said healthcare is waste of money? Do you see doctors at all? Dentists? Shaman?

909 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:28:02pm

re: #892 marjoriemoon

Are they good looking Gmen? Dark glasses, uniforms... could be interesting.

I don't know of any brothels that stock dude-whores. I suppose it's possible. Tell me what you're willing to pay, and maybe we can negotiate.
/

910 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:28:34pm

re: #852 swamprat

There indeed is the rub: at what junction does socialism cease to be a boon, and begin to be a burden. Too much socialism is like too much sugar. It can be good in the right doses, but it can also be detrimental. The question is, at what point?

Fine question! The preamble to the Constitution contains a a phrase that the document (and therefore the country- the Constitution *is* the country) should "promote the common good". That's important, I think. It's the whole Social Contract thing that Locke, Hobbes, and other thinkers of the Enlightenment were proposing.

Health care used to be a relatively small share of the GDP of this country. It has been slowly gobbling up more and more of GDP. The VA medical system, for all its faults, is more popular than you average health care insurer, so is Medicare and Medicaid among those receiving services. Again, why is it okay to privatize the profit and socialize the cost for your health care?

911 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:28:39pm

re: #895 DailyCOS

People... the problem is not with Obama giving a speech to the kids. It's the stupid lesson plan that Dept of Ed put together. A simple speech encouraging kids to stay in school and do well is all that is needed. A lesson plan put together by nanny state bureaucrats asking kids "how they can help the President" is what bothers me and many others.

I got no problem with the president getting involved with schools. Kids need something to get fired up about. Go for it. Give them Hope. Kids are smart. When I was younger I was way liberal. I got smarter.

912 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:29:13pm

re: #890 SanFranciscoZionist

No, and they wouldn't. One of the strengths of the U.S. has always been its strong middle-class, which is what you get when the economy spreads the wealth around.


We're not talking about the economy...we're talking about the government.

913 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:29:42pm

re: #909 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't know of any brothels that stock dude-whores. I suppose it's possible. Tell me what you're willing to pay, and maybe we can negotiate.
/

rofl Well ya know, if the G-men are johns and all that, I just assumed. I'm not really up on my prostitute protocol. But I'm learning so much!

914 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:29:50pm

Around here, property taxes pay for the police, fire and garbage pick-up. And everyone in town gets the same service even though how much your family pays depends on how much your home is worth. I think thats nuts.

Its like going to the grocery store and having to pay prices for your food based on how much your home is worth. No one would put up with that. But no one seems to mind that same system when it comes to paying for municipal services.

915 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:07pm

If the feds really MUST do something about health insurance (because that's where they are at with it now it seems) let the people have more say over the kind of policies they purchase, i.e., let the insurance companies offer no-frills policies that don't have to cover hair-plugs (for instance) or mental health.

Promote health savings plans and let people choose a high deductible policy and negotiate for their own wellness care.

For those that can't afford insurance, assist the states with their low-income health insurance plans.

Promote free clinics. Use tax incentives, loan assistance.

Lose the idea that promoting a system that will create new bureaucracies (that will immediately begin developing their own Byzantine regulations) is ever going to look like a good idea to the majority of the people in this country.

916 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:25pm

re: #898 Racer X

Perhaps. But my point is everyone has "'health care". Walk in to any hospital with an emergency and you will get treated. It may be very expensive and it may take a while, but you will get treatment. If you want better treatment or a lower price than that typically means join a group and obtain lower premiums.

Or in my case, prove that you're poorer than dirt, fill out loads of paperwork, jump through a bunch of flaming, bureaucratic hoops, and wait several months between diagnosis and surgery.

917 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:28pm

re: #46 SteveC

My god, we might have some A's in Math!

We can't have that! You know what else A is for...

Alinsky!
Ayers!

Reminder: the wingularity approacheth:

This punchy term nicely captures the way that rightwing argumentation has become gradually detached from independently recognized reality and into a state of total unselfawareness. The pace of change is also accelerating.

Thanks to the magic of talk radio and the internet, these guys can talk to no-one but each other for extremely long stretches of time, so they have no idea how crazy they sound. The time could come in the very near future when it becomes totally impossible for any ordinary person to have any idea what they are talking about. They will be beyond ordinary logic, beyond spoof. The wingularity will have arrived.

918 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:31pm

re: #909 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't know of any brothels that stock dude-whores. I suppose it's possible. Tell me what you're willing to pay, and maybe we can negotiate.
/

Any Firefly fans here? Remember the scene where Kaylee is at the brothel, shocking everyone by wondering if the fellas take lady customers?

919 solomonpanting  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:37pm

re: #869 SanFranciscoZionist

No more than 'trickle-down' economics.

Should he have said he wanted to concentrate the wealth in the hands of a tiny portion of society?

Ah, the difference between allowing folks to keep more of their income to save or spend as they wish or giving that right to a government. As someone said, the larger the government the smaller the individual. Of course, if your goal is equality of result, then there's only one path to follow.

920 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:54pm

re: #890 SanFranciscoZionist

No, and they wouldn't. One of the strengths of the U.S. has always been its strong middle-class, which is what you get when the economy spreads the wealth around.


What planet do you hail from? Never mind, its oin your nic.

The middle class exists because government (economy in lib speak) spreads the wealth? Hoookay...I am so grateful!
///

921 Syrah  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:31:59pm

re: #897 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. Not tonight, I'm wrecked. Do we meet at some particular time, or just comment as we go?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Join in anytime.

The thread will be active for 7 days.

I will have something for it on Saturday.

Feel free to add anything that you like.

922 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:32:18pm

re: #901 placeholder

We're not broke... In fact, we remain the wealthiest country in the world.
-PH

I'm sorry PH but you are mistaken. America is so far in debt right now it is not even funny.

Nine Trillion Dollars and rising.

923 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:32:53pm

re: #902 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. There is no money for a major new program. We can make small changes but no more that that.

Since when do politicians need to provide a way to actually pay for the costs their legislation incurs? You must be one of them crazy "Unfunded Mandate" protester loons. /

924 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:12pm

re: #860 Noam Sayin'

But I'm not into Harleys.

But I've been thinking them over again recently.

That's why I suggested the V-Rod. You can pretend it's not a Harley if you want, but why would you want to?

They really are sweet machines.

925 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:19pm

re: #917 iceweasel

YO! Weasel! How the heck are you?
Ready for a nice long holiday weekend?

926 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:21pm

re: #913 marjoriemoon

I'm not really up on my prostitute protocol. But I'm learning so much!

Stick with me, sister. You'll be a pro in no time!

/imsofullofit

927 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:27pm

re: #910 austin_blue

Fine question! The preamble to the Constitution contains a a phrase that the document (and therefore the country- the Constitution *is* the country) should "promote the common good". That's important, I think. It's the whole Social Contract thing that Locke, Hobbes, and other thinkers of the Enlightenment were proposing.

Health care used to be a relatively small share of the GDP of this country. It has been slowly gobbling up more and more of GDP. The VA medical system, for all its faults, is more popular than you average health care insurer, so is Medicare and Medicaid among those receiving services. Again, why is it okay to privatize the profit and socialize the cost for your health care?

The profits are already private. Also, I tend to trust private companies far more than the government. Their employees tend to be more accountable and they understand the need to balance the books.

928 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:31pm

re: #914 Mich-again

And we all get the same national defense regardless of how much taxes we pay to the Federal government. It benefits society equally to have secure borders- but you could say it benefits most those with something worth protecting.

929 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:43pm

re: #918 SanFranciscoZionist

Remember? That is seared into my memory, I tell you. SEARED!

And now we know why she asked that.

930 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:33:46pm

re: #895 DailyCOS

People... the problem is not with Obama giving a speech to the kids. It's the stupid lesson plan that Dept of Ed put together

It's a perfectly ordinary and standard lesson plan involving comprehension exercises.

931 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:34:58pm

re: #898 Racer X

Perhaps. But my point is everyone has "'health care". Walk in to any hospital with an emergency and you will get treated. It may be very expensive and it may take a while, but you will get treatment. If you want better treatment or a lower price than that typically means join a group and obtain lower premiums.

I just think going to single payer universal health care is bad news.

Agreed - but the current system is anything but efficient or healthy. All those people who walk into hospitals and get free medical service - their costs are amortized onto insured folks. This, in part, drives premiums ever higher. In addition, while you can walk into a hospital and get service - if you are uninsured it certainly won't be their A team, and you will certainly get billed afterwards.

I think what keeps getting lost in the debate is that nobody is proposing eliminating health insurance in general for a government run system for all americans. Its the current system PLUS gov't healthcare for the uninsured. How is that different from the Florida homeowners insurance provided by the state for people who simply cannot get coverage from national insurers?

I don't understand why people are so vehemently against providing health insurance to the UNinsured.

-PH

932 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:02pm

re: #923 Mich-again

Since when do politicians need to provide a way to actually pay for the costs their legislation incurs? You must be one of them crazy "Unfunded Mandate" protester loons. /

Yep, that's me: nutty as a fruitcake. Booga, booga!

933 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:17pm

re: #920 The Shadow Do

What planet do you hail from? Never mind, its oin your nic.

The middle class exists because government (economy in lib speak) spreads the wealth? Hoookay...I am so grateful!
///

I said economy--if you want to pretend that means something in 'lib speak', feel free. Do you think a strong middle class is not a good thing for a society?

934 Syrah  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:35:21pm
935 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:36:04pm

re: #934 Syrah

Good Night, {Syrah}!

936 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:36:41pm

re: #905 esch

You don't have a right to a firefighter or a police officer. They're not slaves. They could all quit tomorrow and there's nothing you could do but try to hire new ones. The fact that your city collect property taxes to pay voluntarily for a shared service doesn't make it a right. It's a privilege of living in that area and you pay taxes for it voluntarily.

Municipalities and states are perfectly free to approach health care in the same way and contract providers paid for by property taxes. I have yet to hear of one that didn't go broke though.

You miss my point. i was arguing about the definition of services that are "rights." In fact, I agree with you - nothing we have is a right, it is a social agreement. What we choose to prioritize in that structure is up to us.

-PH

937 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:36:44pm

re: #925 Floral Giraffe

YO! Weasel! How the heck are you?
Ready for a nice long holiday weekend?

Hey FG! How are you, honey?

I'm just dandy. Up for a nice weekend. Always up for a party! And yourself?

938 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:39pm

re: #931 placeholder

Agreed - but the current system is anything but efficient or healthy. All those people who walk into hospitals and get free medical service - their costs are amortized onto insured folks. This, in part, drives premiums ever higher. In addition, while you can walk into a hospital and get service - if you are uninsured it certainly won't be their A team, and you will certainly get billed afterwards.

I think what keeps getting lost in the debate is that nobody is proposing eliminating health insurance in general for a government run system for all americans. Its the current system PLUS gov't healthcare for the uninsured. How is that different from the Florida homeowners insurance provided by the state for people who simply cannot get coverage from national insurers?

I don't understand why people are so vehemently against providing health insurance to the UNinsured.

-PH

Because I don't want to pay for it, and I don't trust the government to provide it without taking things from me.

939 DailyCOS  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:37:55pm

re: #911 Racer X

Right, I've got no problem with a speech, it's the govt lesson plans.

940 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:02pm

re: #937 iceweasel

Hey FG! How are you, honey?

I'm just dandy. Up for a nice weekend. Always up for a party! And yourself?

Party? Can I come? ;)

941 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:05pm

I'm staggering. Good night all.

942 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:29pm

re: #939 DailyCOS

Right, I've got no problem with a speech, it's the govt lesson plans.

Kids in public schools already get those.

943 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:30pm

re: #914 Mich-again

Around here, property taxes pay for the police, fire and garbage pick-up. And everyone in town gets the same service even though how much your family pays depends on how much your home is worth. I think thats nuts.

Its like going to the grocery store and having to pay prices for your food based on how much your home is worth. No one would put up with that. But no one seems to mind that same system when it comes to paying for municipal services.

Ditto that. The largest of our chunk goes to schools.

The problem we're currently having in Miami is that our property values soared outrageously (over the country too). But in 6 months time (2002 or 2003?), the value of our home initially increased 4x its value causing the assessed value to go up, although that didn't go over 3%. And there was fluctuation since that time. Our home lost its value again, but the millage hasn't changed and it should. They had a town hall meeting about it and I missed it. I was pissed.

944 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:47pm

re: #930 iceweasel

It's a perfectly ordinary and standard lesson plan involving comprehension exercises.

Which was so perfectly ordinary and standard, that they decided to revise it. Perfectly ordinary and standard my ass.

945 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:38:58pm

re: #928 Sharmuta

And we all get the same national defense regardless of how much taxes we pay to the Federal government. It benefits society equally to have secure borders- but you could say it benefits most those with something worth protecting.

Yeah but what does national defense have to do with the garbage getting picked up? If it were really capitalism, you would pay per unit price for getting the garbage picked up. Like a buck a bag or something like that. But no. Our system forces the old widower who has one trash can every two weeks to subsidize the family next door with five cans every week and Mount Trashmore the week after Christmas. Its socialism I tell ya!

946 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:39:12pm

re: #940 Sharmuta

Party? Can I come? ;)

Of course! How could we, without you? :)

947 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:39:35pm

re: #946 iceweasel

Smurfy!

948 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:39:39pm

re: #937 iceweasel

Rocking & a rolling!
LOL!
Starting to feel sleepy.
Might not make the LNDT.
{{{IW}}

949 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:39:43pm

re: #934 Syrah

Out for the night.

Goodnight all.

The moonlight and the fires makes for a surreal scene from the mountain.

Amazing image.

Map.

The fire is now bigger than the city of Chicago. Mostly wilderness and forest. Only 65 homes destroyed. That is unheard of in this large of a fire. This is the largest single fire in L.A. history.

950 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:39:56pm

re: #908 marjoriemoon

You said healthcare is waste of money? Do you see doctors at all? Dentists? Shaman?

i was being glib... I see healthcare as something as worth spending money on as many of the the other services our government spends money on that I may disagree with. In this case, I think it is a worthwhile way to spend money... versus for example paying farmers to not grow corn.

-PH

951 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:39:59pm

re: #910 austin_blue

That's important, I think. It's the whole Social Contract thing that Locke, Hobbes, and other thinkers of the Enlightenment were proposing.

I don't think they envisioned that social contract being enforced by threat of force. That is the situation that arises when the government takes from some to give to others.

Charity is an entirely different thing.

952 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:23pm

re: #944 Walter L. Newton

Which was so perfectly ordinary and standard, that they decided to revise it. Perfectly ordinary and standard my ass.

Ordinary and standard response to manufactured wingnut outrage.

And i've been told there's nothing ordinary about your ass, honey. ;)

Don't tell me it's not true, you'll break my little heart!

953 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:40:46pm

OK, I'll start this here, if the LNDT gets posted shortly I'll copy it over there.

Background: Every year since 2001 there is a rather large Vampire or Zombie themed party on the Saturday evening during the San Diego Comic Con. This party is put on by some friends of mine involved with the local goth and techno club scenes. DJs I used to work with at a club back in 2002, are often the DJs for this party. It is a little risque, and has a bit of a fetish-party slant to it, but it's not over the top by any means. If anyone saw Elijah Wood on the tonight show last week, he talked about this party specifically but he said it was a bondage party or something... which was an exaggeration itself. I was there when the cast of Lord of the Rings stopped in and there was nothing going on that should have disturbed any reasonable person's delicate sensibilities. Anyway... Apparently an Alex Jones kook-a-like that has a radio show in Chicago picked up an invite to the party when he went to the SD ComicCon. He was on the Alex Jones show to talk about it and hilarity ensued.

The relevant section starts at 6:35 in this video. Everything before it is usual Alex Jones kookery but he talks about Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck so it's good for some laughs.

The people are 20 and 30 somethings wearing costumes, listening to industrial and techno music, and getting drunk. They aren't vampires or shape shifting aliens (like I needed to clarify that).

954 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:41:10pm

re: #952 iceweasel

Ordinary and standard response to manufactured wingnut outrage.

I coined "Rageafauxbia" earlier.

955 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:41:19pm

re: #938 Dark_Falcon

Because I don't want to pay for it, and I don't trust the government to provide it without taking things from me.

Wasting a large percentage of it when they do.

956 traderjoe9  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:41:24pm

My teacher plans to show the address in my government class. Bring it on.

957 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:41:52pm

re: #954 Sharmuta

I coined "Rageafauxbia" earlier.

Red meat for the red States.

958 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:42:01pm

re: #941 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm staggering. Good night all.

Lightweight! It's 1:40a over here!

xxoo

959 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:42:29pm

re: #949 Racer X

AND IT WAS STARTED BY ARSON.
Let us not forget this fact.

960 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:42:30pm

re: #950 placeholder

i was being glib... I see healthcare as something as worth spending money on as many of the the other services our government spends money on that I may disagree with. In this case, I think it is a worthwhile way to spend money... versus for example paying farmers to not grow corn.

-PH

Interesting point - paying farmers not to grow crops. Flip that analogy to the uninsured conundrum. Perhaps the government should focus on just those individuals and leave the rest of us alone?

961 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:42:42pm

re: #914 Mich-again

Its like going to the grocery store and having to pay prices for your food based on how much your home is worth. No one would put up with that. But no one seems to mind that same system when it comes to paying for municipal services.

Dude! STFU! If I end up having to pay more for my groceries because some IRS bureaucrat got this idea from you, I am so coming over to your house and stealing your cheese!
///and your peanut-butter!

962 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:10pm

re: #936 placeholder

Ah, I guess I did. My apologies. Must be a knee-jerk reflex from dealing with so many leftist relatives.

963 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:20pm

re: #950 placeholder

In this case, I think it is a worthwhile way to spend money... versus for example paying farmers to not grow corn.

Which is a great example of a bureaucracy continuing on way past its usefulness.

964 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:39pm
All eligible and completed dealer submissions should be fully paid by Sept. 30, the official said. The official said the government is ramping up staff and 5,000 workers will be reviewing paperwork by the end of next week. About 3,000 government and private sector workers are currently working on the project.


$2.88B in rebates. Someone do the math. How many gov't hires will be need to deal with nationalized health care? Hmmm?

965 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:43:52pm

re: #961 Slumbering Behemoth

I am so coming over to your house and stealing your cheese!

HEY! Thats Nacho cheese!

966 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:44:03pm

re: #871 Mich-again

The problem with your argument is that the availability of health care is not directly tied to a healthy population. The health care industry addresses sick people. Healthy people on the other hand don't need health care. If you really think the goal for the government is to promote a healthy population, then maybe the congress should make cigarettes, Big Macs, alcohol and lack of sleep illegal. Providing free health care after the fact is a weak way to solve the problem.

Even if every single person in the Country had their own personal doctor and hospital staff at their disposal it wouldn't make them "healthy" if they also drank a lot, smoked two packs a day and ate like a pig.

No, sorry you've got it completely wrong and this is the primary point. The "health care industry" does not exist to address sick people. The "health care industry" in this country primarily exists to make a profit and maximize sharheolder value. It will do whatever is necessary to *not* deliver health care, even to people with valid policies, if it can. By and large, for work-a-day illnesses, it's fine. But when a major trauma hits, or when there is a "voluntary procedure" that is necessary to maintain long-term health and productivity, they will fight like hell not to pay it. Or claim it's a pre-existing condition. It's pitiful.

967 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:44:39pm

Folks, please don't forget to report any troll comments, by clicking the little exclamation point icon. It really helps if you report them instead of me having to go find them in the old threads -- because it's virtually guaranteed that there are going to be some more freaks posting overnight, hoping that their little turds will be missed.

968 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:45:09pm

re: #966 austin_blue

If its such a lucrative industry, what happened to all those HMO's.

969 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:45:13pm

Hey, I just finished the video in the book thread and no one is there?

970 traderjoe9  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:06pm

Charles,

My mother is one of those loons who would yank me from class in a heartbeat if they televised the address. I guess spending half her life in the Soviet Union reading from a script how much Brezhnev inspires her and how she wants to serve him makes her a little sensitive to things like this.

971 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:14pm

re: #889 BignJames

Sorry you lost your Dad...but your point is? Getting treatment at Bethesda is part of a contract honored for putting your life on the line in service to this country...it is earned.

it is socialized medicine.

972 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:16pm

re: #922 Racer X

I'm sorry PH but you are mistaken. America is so far in debt right now it is not even funny.

Nine Trillion Dollars and rising.

Depends how you measure wealth. We're in the top 5-7 of any list based on GDP, spending power, or any number of other stats. The debt is driven by a lot more than just healthcare or recent bailout spending. I'm not advocating spending more unilaterally, but there are plenty of choices and trade-offs we can make if we felt like "affording" healthcare.

973 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:23pm

re: #969 ggt

I gave you a +1. We're meeting back in that thread tomorrow too.

974 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:46:36pm

re: #952 iceweasel

Ordinary and standard response to manufactured wingnut outrage.

And i've been told there's nothing ordinary about your ass, honey. ;)

Don't tell me it's not true, you'll break my little heart!

You know, for an administration that is suppose to be so sure of it's positions, they keep caving in, don't they. Single Payer, no single payer, end-of-life counseling, no end of life counseling, lesson plan with "write a letter to the president outline what you can do to help him," lesson plan with "???" and I have reference after reference to other waffles.

I'm white, I'm 56, white men have no butts. Ok. :)

975 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:11pm

re: #968 Mich-again

If its such a lucrative industry, what happened to all those HMO's.

Which ones?

976 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:29pm

re: #931 placeholder


How is that different from the Florida homeowners insurance provided by the state for people who simply cannot get coverage from national insurers?


Uhhh...you have to pay for that insurance...and it doesn't include liability.

977 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:47:57pm

re: #973 Sharmuta

I gave you a +1. We're meeting back in that thread tomorrow too.

Don't know if I'll be there, but I'll try to check-in.

978 solomonpanting  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:48:23pm

re: #964 The Shadow Do


All eligible and completed dealer submissions should be fully paid by Sept. 30, the official said. The official said the government is ramping up staff and 5,000 workers will be reviewing paperwork by the end of next week. About 3,000 government and private sector workers are currently working on the project.

$2.88B in rebates. Someone do the math. How many gov't hires will be need to deal with nationalized health care? Hmmm?

So then the $2.88B is not the full cost if thousands of government employees are needed to help deal out the dole.

979 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:48:26pm

re: #977 ggt

I left a comment for you too.

980 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:48:58pm

re: #969 ggt

I have some thoughts that will take quite a few words to describe... but somehow the time goes by too quickly.

Bottom line: I'm considering that Sowell's dichotomy is a function of his Christian-worldview-influenced society. If one were to look at Man strictly in an evolutionary paradigm the constrained/unconstrained dichotomy may not apply.

Like I said... it would take lots of words to explain, more time than I have now.

981 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:50:23pm

re: #966 austin_blue

No, sorry you've got it completely wrong and this is the primary point. The "health care industry" does not exist to address sick people. The "health care industry" in this country primarily exists to make a profit and maximize sharheolder value. It will do whatever is necessary to *not* deliver health care, even to people with valid policies, if it can. By and large, for work-a-day illnesses, it's fine. But when a major trauma hits, or when there is a "voluntary procedure" that is necessary to maintain long-term health and productivity, they will fight like hell not to pay it. Or claim it's a pre-existing condition. It's pitiful.

Jeez, where to start.

In a capitalist society the company or provider who delivers the best service at the best price usually succeeds. Health care providers are no different. More choices is a good thing. Competition is a good thing. Yes I know there are examples of people receiving poor health care. If that happens switch providers.

Reducing the choices down to:

A. Government
or
B. None

Is gonna suck ass.

982 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:21pm

re: #980 freetoken

I have some thoughts that will take quite a few words to describe... but somehow the time goes by too quickly.

Bottom line: I'm considering that Sowell's dichotomy is a function of his Christian-worldview-influenced society. If one were to look at Man strictly in an evolutionary paradigm the constrained/unconstrained dichotomy may not apply.

Like I said... it would take lots of words to explain, more time than I have now.

I'm not so sure about that. The constrained vision relies heavily on social evolution- technology and market driven. The constrained vision would be evolution and the unconstrained would be intelligent design.

983 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:40pm

re: #914 Mich-again

Around here, property taxes pay for the police, fire and garbage pick-up. And everyone in town gets the same service even though how much your family pays depends on how much your home is worth. I think thats nuts.

Its like going to the grocery store and having to pay prices for your food based on how much your home is worth. No one would put up with that. But no one seems to mind that same system when it comes to paying for municipal services.

Dude, we don't have a State income tax, so my property taxes run over $7,000 per year for my little 1600 sq ft compound.

984 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:49pm

re: #980 freetoken

Oh- and have you read the book? Just curious...

985 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:56pm

re: #938 Dark_Falcon

Because I don't want to pay for it, and I don't trust the government to provide it without taking things from me.

Like what? What do you get from the federal government that you fear losing? There's a lot of crap I'd rather not pay for... but we don't get to pick and choose. Why are you so eager to pay for farm subsidies, various pork, wars, etc... but not healthcare. What is it about healthcare that suddenly has everyone losing their sh*t over how their money is spent. For chrissakes - the government has been misspending tax dollars from day one.
-PH

986 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:51:57pm

re: #975 austin_blue

Blaming insurance companies for the high costs of medical care is like blaming the cashier for the high costs of groceries. Have you ever looked at an itemized bill from a hospital stay?

987 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:52:50pm

Holy crap.

988 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:53:43pm

re: #974 Walter L. Newton

You know, for an administration that is suppose to be so sure of it's positions, they keep caving in, don't they. Single Payer, no single payer, end-of-life counseling, no end of life counseling, lesson plan with "write a letter to the president outline what you can do to help him," lesson plan with "???" and I have reference after reference to other waffles.

I'm white, I'm 56, white men have no butts. Ok. :)

Well, they're pragmatic and keep making concession after concession to the wingnut outrage. Manufactured hysteria over end of life counselling, a provision the AARP wanted? Ok, let's drop 1233. And so on.

They don't seem to realise that wingnut outrage is self-sustaining. It manufactures itself. Every day there is a new one. But the Dems have always been gutless anyway.

And I don't believe you about the butt. :)

989 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:53:43pm

re: #953 ArchangelMichael

Wow.

1) Sounds like an awe-some party
2) Mancow is a Manbitch
3) Jones is a paranoid nut
4 WTF? "I had someone enter my dreams" "I prevented this with a dampening field". Dude, just call it a tin-foil hat, Mancow. Loser.

990 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:53:57pm

re: #960 Racer X

Interesting point - paying farmers not to grow crops. Flip that analogy to the uninsured conundrum. Perhaps the government should focus on just those individuals and leave the rest of us alone?

They are aren't they? They are talking about just the uninsured - not having insured people switch to this.

-PH

991 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:54:10pm

re: #705 itellu3times

That was posted on LGF somewhere earlier tonight. They didn't quite beat a path (nor run a bath) to his door, but with a billionaire providing the financing, they finally got a contract, though it sounds like nobody on their staff can see the actual data!

I recall just four or five years ago the FBI was still trying to get their network upgraded from 1986-quality Novell and for all I know green-screen character-only PCs. I'm not sure this Palantir business is any more significant than that.

A little aside - I work for a company whose product blows 'Palantir' out of the water. We've got quite a few customers worldwide and are growing.

992 The Shadow Do  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:54:45pm

re: #978 solomonpanting

So then the $2.88B is not the full cost if thousands of government employees are needed to help deal out the dole.

Indeed, then multiply that times the trillion(s) for Obamacare. I'm not sure there are enough Americans to fill all the job openings.

993 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:21pm

re: #983 austin_blue

Dude, we don't have a State income tax, so my property taxes run over $7,000 per year for my little 1600 sq ft compound.

Well we have both State taxes and Property taxes and the bill for both was more than $10K last year. No sympathy here.

994 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:24pm

re: #985 placeholder

It's pretty simple.

In my case, single-payer health would never pay for the medication that has kept me alive and productive for most of a decade. And there are plenty of others like me.

995 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:30pm

re: #985 placeholder

Like what? What do you get from the federal government that you fear losing? There's a lot of crap I'd rather not pay for... but we don't get to pick and choose. Why are you so eager to pay for farm subsidies, various pork, wars, etc... but not healthcare. What is it about healthcare that suddenly has everyone losing their sh*t over how their money is spent. For chrissakes - the government has been misspending tax dollars from day one.
-PH

Why encourage them to spend more? the federal government has taken far too many things it never should have in the first place.

I would guess the reason healthcare is generating so much pushback is because it is the first attempt at a major expansion of the federal government in most of our politically aware lifetimes.

996 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:55:54pm

re: #976 BignJames

How is that different from the Florida homeowners insurance provided by the state for people who simply cannot get coverage from national insurers?

Uhhh...you have to pay for that insurance...and it doesn't include liability.

But its provided by state government - to people who would not otherwise qualify for insurance. At any cost. Its still subsidized by state taxpayer money. Same idea...

997 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:56:20pm

re: #984 Sharmuta

No, just watched the video and read the reviews and some of your comments here.

998 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:56:39pm

re: #981 Racer X

Jeez, where to start.

In a capitalist society the company or provider who delivers the best service at the best price usually succeeds. Health care providers are no different. More choices is a good thing. Competition is a good thing. Yes I know there are examples of people receiving poor health care. If that happens switch providers.

Reducing the choices down to:

A. Government
or
B. None

Is gonna suck ass.

Agreed! So what is the hoo-hoo over a Medicare option to private plans? You want competition? There ya go! Compete with a plan that is run as efficiently as Medicare with it's 3-7% overhead! (and that depends on whose study you look at)

999 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:56:59pm

re: #971 austin_blue

it is socialized medicine.


How so? Because taxpayers pay for it? That's part of the contract we make w/service people...I was born in an Air Force hospital...the taxpayers had a contract w/my dad for his service...I got no contract w/gang bangers or crackheads.

1000 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 10:57:41pm

re: #985 placeholder

Like what? What do you get from the federal government that you fear losing? There's a lot of crap I'd rather not pay for... but we don't get to pick and choose. Why are you so eager to pay for farm subsidies, various pork, wars, etc... but not healthcare. What is it about healthcare that suddenly has everyone losing their sh*t over how their money is spent. For chrissakes - the government has been misspending tax dollars from day one.
-PH

That's not what I mean. I fear that government will take my private insurance away and replace with an inferior government plan. I don't want that to happen and I fear this bill is a major step towards that end.

1001 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:04pm

re: #996 placeholder

But its provided by state government - to people who would not otherwise qualify for insurance. At any cost. Its still subsidized by state taxpayer money. Same idea...


It's paid for by insurance company profits.

1002 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:07pm

Going through this thread, I see that some schools are issuing permission slips to parents.

PERMISSION SLIPS!

I can't believe it - we used to have the President's portrait in the classroom; didn't matter who it was. Now the GOP is basically saying, "Keep this man away from our children!"

It may not be the intent of everyone who is freaking out, but it certainly smacks of racism. It's parallel to the hints during the election that Obama wouldn't defend the US if we were attacked - no details about specific military policy, just the hint that he would order the military to stand down or some garbage like that.

By the way, I notice a constant meme in many comments on quite a few sites is to use the phrase, "Wake up, America!" Does anyone know where this originates from? I get this vibe that it's typical wording from neo-Nazi or Klan material.

1003 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:14pm

re: #999 BignJames

I got no contract w/gang bangers or crackheads.

I do. The contract states, and I quote, "You keep your person out of my house, business, car, and face, and I keep my foot out of your ass".
/pretty simple contract, really

1004 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:15pm

re: #995 Van Helsing

Why encourage them to spend more? the federal government has taken far too many things it never should have in the first place.

I would guess the reason healthcare is generating so much pushback is because it is the first attempt at a major expansion of the federal government in most of our politically aware lifetimes.

Fair point. I just wish the argument was framed more in the context of a general federal government roll back. And not just about healthcare. This way it just smacks of disingenuousness... we're ok with all the other spending...but not insuring the uninsured. NOW we've gone to far...

Its a strange point on which to make a stand against government spending.

-PH

1005 Racer X  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:41pm

re: #985 placeholder

Like what? What do you get from the federal government that you fear losing? There's a lot of crap I'd rather not pay for... but we don't get to pick and choose. Why are you so eager to pay for farm subsidies, various pork, wars, etc... but not healthcare. What is it about healthcare that suddenly has everyone losing their sh*t over how their money is spent. For chrissakes - the government has been misspending tax dollars from day one.
-PH

PH - how much will this government run health care cost? I've seen estimates of up around a trillion dollars. Thats not chump change. We are already in the hole for a couple of trillion this year alone. We simply cannot afford it.

To say we already spend like drunken sailors so what's the big deal with spending more - well that sounds an awful lot like the president. It make no fiscal sense. It sounds good if you want a socialist society, but ask some people who recently moved to America in order to get away from that how they feel about it.

One last point on government health care. I think it is political suicide to rush into it. The government will undoubtedly fuck it up big time. It will take years to clean up the mess and get it right. Americans will not have the patience for it. They want it now - they were promised it now.

In 18 months when the average Joe is getting screwed around by the government run health care bureaucracy, things are going to turn nasty.

1006 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:00:49pm

re: #976 BignJames

How is that different from the Florida homeowners insurance provided by the state for people who simply cannot get coverage from national insurers?

Uhhh...you have to pay for that insurance...and it doesn't include liability.

There are no companies carrying windstorm insurance in Florida. The state has all the polices under "Citizens Property Insurance." You have home insurance by Allstate, State Farm whomever and you have Citizens for your windstorm. You can't buy a home without windstorm.

1007 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:01:11pm

re: #989 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow.

1) Sounds like an awe-some party
2) Mancow is a Manbitch
3) Jones is a paranoid nut
4 WTF? "I had someone enter my dreams" "I prevented this with a dampening field". Dude, just call it a tin-foil hat, Mancow. Loser.

I know. To me this absolutely hilarious because its just like a really expensive night at a dance club and you have to wear a costume. It's put on by computer geeks and goth kids that never grew up but got good jobs where they could afford to throw a party like this. I probably personally know the woman he was claiming to be a shapeshifter, assuming he was actually approached by anyone at all.

Notice how when he starts talking about his dreams and the dampening field, Alex Jones gets real quiet and cues up a commercial. LOL even Jones thinks this guy is loony. If Alex Jones thinks you are a kook, game over. You lose (or win, depending on your PoV).

1008 solomonpanting  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:01:45pm

re: #980 freetoken

I have some thoughts that will take quite a few words to describe... but somehow the time goes by too quickly.

Bottom line: I'm considering that Sowell's dichotomy is a function of his Christian-worldview-influenced society. If one were to look at Man strictly in an evolutionary paradigm the constrained/unconstrained dichotomy may not apply.

Like I said... it would take lots of words to explain, more time than I have now.

There is a line of thought whereby, generally speaking, religious folks believe their utopia lies in the hereafter and are content to make their lives in this lifetime as best as they can, knowing that people have certain flaws, if you will. OTOH, secular folks seek their utopia here and now and try to mold the human into something that grinds against their natural instincts, as the totalitarian regimes of the 20th Century attest.

1009 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:01:52pm

re: #997 freetoken

I do hope you read it. I think all folks of a more political bent should.

It's interesting you mentioned evolution and science, because it is touched upon in the book. Not so much that one vision is pro-science and the other isn't, per se- but the evolution/id analogy works for the visions. Frankly- I was a bit surprised to see mention of evolution, even in a social aspect, mentioned in the book.

1010 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:02:28pm

re: #1002 Dreader1962

By the way, I notice a constant meme in many comments on quite a few sites is to use the phrase, "Wake up, America!" Does anyone know where this originates from? I get this vibe that it's typical wording from neo-Nazi or Klan material.

Alex Jones, and other fear mongering, conspiracy sales-men like him.

1011 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:03:53pm

re: #986 Mich-again

Blaming insurance companies for the high costs of medical care is like blaming the cashier for the high costs of groceries. Have you ever looked at an itemized bill from a hospital stay?

Yes. I have been there. The $5 Advil pill was a surprise. I have been hospitalized once over the past thirteen years when I got a nasty case of MRSA on my face.

I was the pus monster! They stuck me in a room for one day. They gave me pills that I could get at CVS (and did, after my release). The one day billed my insurance company $1,800. I was pissed that they stuck me in there and the insurance company called after the fact and grilled me to see if I had any "risk factors"! For a ubiquitous virus!

1012 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:04:56pm

re: #1001 BignJames

It's paid for by insurance company profits.

Right - its just an additional corporate tax. If they don't participate, they can't insure in the state period. Auto, personal, etc...

1013 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:04:58pm

re: #997 freetoken

No, just watched the video and read the reviews and some of your comments here.

FT-- you might like this. Exchange in the NY Rev of Books after TM Scanlon reviewed the sowell book.

the review is subscription only, but the letter exchange is here:

[Link: www.nybooks.com...]

Scroll down to the Scanlon letter first, I think. Gives a good idea of some other criticisms, IMO.

1014 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:05:50pm

re: #1008 solomonpanting

There is a line of thought whereby, generally speaking, religious folks believe their utopia lies in the hereafter and are content to make their lives in this lifetime as best as they can, knowing that people have certain flaws, if you will. OTOH, secular folks seek their utopia here and now and try to mold the human into something that grinds against their natural instincts, as the totalitarian regimes of the 20th Century attest.

Except religious fundamentalists have unconstrained visions. It is the constrained vision that thinks human nature is fixed.

1015 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:05:57pm

This computer sucks...balky as hell...see youse guys Monday.

1016 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:47pm

re: #999 BignJames

How so? Because taxpayers pay for it? That's part of the contract we make w/service people...I was born in an Air Force hospital...the taxpayers had a contract w/my dad for his service...I got no contract w/gang bangers or crackheads.

Well, yeah, that's kind of the definition of *socialized*, isn't it?

Duh.

1017 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:06:47pm

re: #1011 austin_blue

Yes. I have been there. The $5 Advil pill was a surprise. I have been hospitalized once over the past thirteen years when I got a nasty case of MRSA on my face.

I was the pus monster! They stuck me in a room for one day. They gave me pills that I could get at CVS (and did, after my release). The one day billed my insurance company $1,800. I was pissed that they stuck me in there and the insurance company called after the fact and grilled me to see if I had any "risk factors"! For a ubiquitous virus!

I review my mom's medical bills all the time and can't figure out each line item. I recently went through outpatient surgery and the pre-bill (before filing with the insurance company) charged over $1,000 for 'room and board'. The insurance company didn't pay a cent on that line item and the hospital accepted their payout. What I wonder is how they get away with billing that line item in the first place. If they accepted no money for the line item, isn't that basically an admission that it was a bogus charge to begin with? Isn't that fraud?

1018 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:20pm

It could be worse.

I've been hospitalized about 16 times. 4 surgeries. Around 10K and 25K each, respectively. Meds are around 3k a month, but they've kept me out of the hospital, mostly.

At least I can say my ass is expensive.

1019 spiderx  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:26pm

re: #981 Racer X

Jeez, where to start.

In a capitalist society the company or provider who delivers the best service at the best price usually succeeds. Health care providers are no different. More choices is a good thing. Competition is a good thing. Yes I know there are examples of people receiving poor health care. If that happens switch providers.

Reducing the choices down to:

A. Government
or
B. None

Is gonna suck ass.

Healthcare is not the same as widgets. If you get sick or injured and your insurance company denies you you can't switch insurance companies because you have a preexisting condition.

our current health care system is not a free market. In a free market I can find out what services and prices competitors offer. There's really no way to tell if an INS company is going to screw you in the future. Like the post you responded to said , the health insurance companies make money by denying care.

the for profit health care insurance companies in this country currently operate like a criminal enterprise.

1020 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:07:54pm

re: #1015 BignJames

This computer sucks...balky as hell...see youse guys Monday.

It may be your browser. I understand that after 1,000 comments, Internet Explorer doesn't work very well. Try Firefox or Safari (both free - and much better browsers in general).

1021 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:08:41pm

re: #1019 spiderx

The answer to that is better oversight, not a government takeover.

1022 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:08:59pm

re: #1017 Dreader1962

I review my mom's medical bills all the time and can't figure out each line item. I recently went through outpatient surgery and the pre-bill (before filing with the insurance company) charged over $1,000 for 'room and board'. The insurance company didn't pay a cent on that line item and the hospital accepted their payout. What I wonder is how they get away with billing that line item in the first place. If they accepted no money for the line item, isn't that basically an admission that it was a bogus charge to begin with? Isn't that fraud?

Yes. Tax write offs. Total scam, and everyone is in on the game

1023 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:09:03pm

re: #1016 austin_blue

Well, yeah, that's kind of the definition of *socialized*, isn't it?

Duh.


Fuck you.

1024 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:09:58pm

re: #1022 austin_blue

Yes. Tax write offs. Total scam, and everyone is in on the game

So you're saying that the hospital would claim this as a 'loss' when filing taxes? I've been curious about this - do you have a link to an investigation or report about this?

1025 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:11:01pm

re: #980 freetoken

I have some thoughts that will take quite a few words to describe... but somehow the time goes by too quickly.

Bottom line: I'm considering that Sowell's dichotomy is a function of his Christian-worldview-influenced society. If one were to look at Man strictly in an evolutionary paradigm the constrained/unconstrained dichotomy may not apply.

Like I said... it would take lots of words to explain, more time than I have now.

I've thought that too, but I think that is because we are of a "Christian" society. Or what we think of as a "Christian" society. But it seems that non-Christians have chosen to live in our society and have thrived, so maybe it is really a more "Western-Greek-Roman-Judeo-Christian Society" or just "A Society based on Reason".

In the end, I do think that our society depends on:

1) the believe that "rights" originate in a power greater than ourselves -and are inalienable. Meaning that NO human can grant or dismiss them. Now that "power" can be whatever one whats to think of as that "power." A god, the God, nature, or some unsolvable mathematical equation --whatever.

2) That what those who were raised as Christan's think of as "original sin" is simply the fact that humans are not and can never be PERFECT. We all have flaws, will always have flaws and that our system of government will also be flawed--and has to be able to work around those flaws. Humans will be humans.

3) There are things that are out of our control. In the Christian thinking we tend to say "God's Will". Hurricane Katrina hit shore because there are things that are out of our control --whether one thinks of it as "God's Will" or that Nature has cycles and forces that we cannot and will never be able accurately predict or prepare, or however one thinks about it --there are going to be tragedies and disasters that will JUST HAPPEN. It isn't any human being's fault. (I might also add, the Economy is the Economy --leave it alone!)

4) We have Free Will. Meaning that with rights we have responsibility. No medical diagnosis, or bleeding heart can negate the fact that when we reach the age of majority, we are responsible for the words we say and the actions we take. I don't think that is purely a Christian idea. We think of it as so because we are used to hearing the words "Free Will".

IMHO, labeling our Freedom in any religious terms is a big part of the problem. There are those that will argue till they are blue in the face on whether or not our Founders were "Christians" or "Humanists" or whatever. In the end, IMHO, they were men that were Classically Educated, removed from the insanity of Monarchy and a purely class-based society and who had some real world experience. To be fair, higher-education in their day was dispensed by a religious institution. Yet, they specifically did not want a State Religion.

They did something extraordinary --they THOUGHT.

1026 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:11:14pm

re: #1023 BignJames

No need to curse.

1027 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:11:45pm

D@mn, I've been long-winded tonite. I'll spare you-all any more and say weet dreams now.

weet dreams!

1028 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:11:57pm

Ok.

The pre-existing condition limitation is there to prevent people from waiting to get insurance until they get sick, and then purchase it for long enough to get treatment. If somebody can come up with a better solution to that problem, I'm sure they'd listen.

1029 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:12:45pm

re: #1004 placeholder

Fair point. I just wish the argument was framed more in the context of a general federal government roll back. And not just about healthcare. This way it just smacks of disingenuousness... we're ok with all the other spending...but not insuring the uninsured. NOW we've gone to far...

Its a strange point on which to make a stand against government spending.

-PH

You are correct. I left an important word out of this sentence - Why encourage them to spend more? the federal government has taken ON far too many things it never should have in the first place.

Changes the tone a bit. I think they should dump many of the things they've taken on. A good start would be the department of education $62B
budget. And what have they done to improve education over the last 30 years?

I also recall one of Obama's campaign pledges was to evaluate federal programs and cut the ones that werenot working or were no longer necessary.

Still waiting on that. It would have been excellent PR move for them to do that BEFORE proposing a dozen or so new bureaucracies for the healthcare plan.

And again, it's healthcare getting the pushback because it is huge, people know they need it, and it's the first time in their lives something of this magnitude has been brought up.

1030 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:13:20pm

re: #1013 iceweasel

FT-- you might like this. Exchange in the NY Rev of Books after TM Scanlon reviewed the sowell book.

the review is subscription only, but the letter exchange is here:

[Link: www.nybooks.com...]

Scroll down to the Scanlon letter first, I think. Gives a good idea of some other criticisms, IMO.

That is a lot of squabbling about labels I don't think apply. The book is heavy on 18th century thinkers. I do not think the terms of today adequately apply to the visions. At times I wonder if Dr Sowell even gets this point when I read some of his recent essays. There are unconstrained members on the right- they're not liberals. There are liberal righties and conservative liberals- and none of these labels fit for me any more except the raw visionary labels.

If religious fundamentalists are called "conservative" and and they are unconstrained, it's not possible to have "conservative" apply to the constrained.

1031 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:14:05pm

re: #980 freetoken

I have some thoughts that will take quite a few words to describe... but somehow the time goes by too quickly.

Bottom line: I'm considering that Sowell's dichotomy is a function of his Christian-worldview-influenced society. If one were to look at Man strictly in an evolutionary paradigm the constrained/unconstrained dichotomy may not apply.

Like I said... it would take lots of words to explain, more time than I have now.

The constrained-unconstrained dichotomy of course does not apply to all aspects of governance. Once could question it's application to history for example in the Constitution which could be said to be the result of an unconstrained vision. Had they remain constrained, there would have been no motivation for its creation.

It's highly applicable to policy and regulation. Whether we as a nation decide to create a society based on a completely unconstrained view. In the case of our economy a constrained view is preferable while with social issues, an unconstrained view is applicable. What was seen as unconstrained in the past can also be seen as the new constrained paradigm.

I find it instructional in the end and don't see it as a panacea.

1032 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:14:44pm

re: #1023 BignJames

Fuck you.

Well thank you for that insightful comment! Nothing like that to advance the conversation! Thank you for your input, and I am sure that your addition to the board will make the rest of the Lizards here take you seriously and give you great respect!

Well played!

1033 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:15:26pm

re: #1006 marjoriemoon

The federal government is also the only entity that sells flood insurance.
Because taxpayers get to subsidize the inevitable losses.
www.floodsmart.gov...]>

1034 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:15:50pm

re: #1027 ggt

D@mn, I've been long-winded tonite. I'll spare you-all any more and say weet dreams now.

weet dreams!

Wheat dreams?

1035 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:16:03pm

re: #1006 marjoriemoon

There are no companies carrying windstorm insurance in Florida. The state has all the polices under "Citizens Property Insurance." You have home insurance by Allstate, State Farm whomever and you have Citizens for your windstorm. You can't buy a home without windstorm.

Like Flood Insurance. Underwritten by the Insurance companies, provided by the State --if you live in a flood plane, you have to have it.

Now I am really saying

weet dreams.

1036 placeholder  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:16:29pm

re: #981 Racer X

Jeez, where to start.

In a capitalist society the company or provider who delivers the best service at the best price usually succeeds. Health care providers are no different. More choices is a good thing. Competition is a good thing. Yes I know there are examples of people receiving poor health care. If that happens switch providers.

Reducing the choices down to:

A. Government
or
B. None

Is gonna suck ass.

This is simply wrong. The current choice is:

A. existing healthcare providers
or
B. None.

The proposed solution is existing healthcare providers, the government, or none. Why is everyone assuming that existing health providers are somehow going to get shut down, or eliminated. that's just absurd.

The gov't is just another competitor. Like it is for FedEx or UPS through the postal service. Those companies seem to compete on quality just fine...

1037 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:16:32pm

re: #1032 austin_blue

Well thank you for that insightful comment! Nothing like that to advance the conversation! Thank you for your input, and I am sure that your addition to the board will make the rest of the Lizards here take you seriously and give you great respect!

Well played!

That was snarky, but justified and classy. upding.

1038 esch  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:16:33pm

re: #1029 Van Helsing

I think they should dump many of the things they've taken on. A good start would be the department of education $62B
budget. And what have they done to improve education over the last 30 years?

I also recall one of Obama's campaign pledges was to evaluate federal programs and cut the ones that werenot working or were no longer necessary.

This is the nut no one is willing to crack. Destroy the unions. Eliminate millions of wasteful government jobs with fat pensions promised. Throw millions out of work hopefully temporarily and move a lot of these agency functions over to private initiatives.

This is the kind of thing that would be the entire focus of a one-term Presidency aside from defense. Who will fall on that grenade?

1039 BignJames  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:17:01pm

re: #1032 austin_blue

It's a term of endearment.

1040 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:17:11pm

re: #1002 Dreader1962

"Wake up [insert demographic]" is generally a phrase used by those who think that their narrow perspective or little piece of "information" is a truth (or a "troof", as the case may be) that is ignored or eluding a segment of society because that segment of society is composed of blind, stupid zombie-sheeple.

It is the mating call of mad cranks and conspiracy theorists.

1041 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:18:59pm

re: #1040 Slumbering Behemoth

"Wake up [insert demographic]" is generally a phrase used by those who think that their narrow perspective or little piece of "information" is a truth (or a "troof", as the case may be) that is ignored or eluding a segment of society because that segment of society is composed of blind, stupid zombie-sheeple.

It is the mating call of mad cranks and conspiracy theorists.

What I find amusing is that it is usually followed by calls to stop being sheep, etc. After seeing about 30 comments to one news story with this phrase, this comes to mind:

Individualism...

1042 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:19:56pm

re: #1031 Gus 802

The constrained-unconstrained dichotomy of course does not apply to all aspects of governance. Once could question it's application to history for example in the Constitution which could be said to be the result of an unconstrained vision. Had they remain constrained, there would have been no motivation for its creation.

It's highly applicable to policy and regulation. Whether we as a nation decide to create a society based on a completely unconstrained view. In the case of our economy a constrained view is preferable while with social issues, an unconstrained view is applicable. What was seen as unconstrained in the past can also be seen as the new constrained paradigm.

I find it instructional in the end and don't see it as a panacea.


Excellent points. In so far as the labels have utility I do see them as being about policy and regulation.

Problem is, a 'constrained' view of human nature has traditionally been applied against progress on social issues, and I think FT was making this point as well w/r/t the social psychology issues. That is, it was once argued that blacks simply were inferior, and this was used to excuse everything from slavery to denying them the vote to denying them education access to prohibiting miscegenation.

Similarly, the women's movement. It was argued that this is just 'the way things are' or 'the way people are'.

So it's not quite as simple as saying that religious fundamentalists are unconstrained, really...
I don't know. Interesting discussion, though.

1043 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:20:08pm

re: #1031 Gus 802

The visions are also laid out starkly for sake of discussion, but come in degrees, as is mentioned at the beginning of the book. Where I start to lean the most unconstrained is education funding. I do see education as the great equalizer, and think every child should have the opportunity to get a basic education so they can make the best of the opportunity of their minds limits. Everywhere else- I'm fairly constrained. I would say classic liberalism would be a good term to describe the constrained vision.

1044 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:20:49pm

re: #1041 Dreader1962

Damn!

Individualism...

1045 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:21:47pm

re: #1036 placeholder

This is simply wrong. The current choice is:

A. existing healthcare providers
or
B. None.

The proposed solution is existing healthcare providers, the government, or none. Why is everyone assuming that existing health providers are somehow going to get shut down, or eliminated. that's just absurd.

The gov't is just another competitor. Like it is for FedEx or UPS through the postal service. Those companies seem to compete on quality just fine...

Not true. There is Medicaid. Many states have health insurance for low income residents. In Arizona it AHCCCS. There is the S-CHIP program.

1046 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:21:47pm

Birdhouse In Your Soul - Literal Video Version

1047 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:21:50pm

re: #1024 Dreader1962

So you're saying that the hospital would claim this as a 'loss' when filing taxes? I've been curious about this - do you have a link to an investigation or report about this?

I'm not a CPA, but it is my understanding that hospitals get to write off uncompensated costs.

1048 freetoken  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:22:16pm

re: #1025 ggt


IMHO, labeling our Freedom in any religious terms is a big part of the problem.

That indeed is a common bone of contention. Since that type of claim is ubiquitous in our society any attempt to look at "rights" or government gets tainted with that view, or at the arguments around that view.

I lived in Japan for a few years, and the worldview there (at least before the highly Americanized entertainment-centric society became so dominant) would not have been the same as in the US during the time of the founding of this nation. No matter how much commonality one may find, or try to find, between different cultures' approach to this (idea of rights and governance), there are practical differences that arise out of the essential physical and biological environs in which Homo sapiens dwell.

1049 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:22:50pm

re: #1030 Sharmuta

I find that religious fundamentalists are quite often not conservative in the least, and advocate many things which are irredeemably leftist or socialist.

1050 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:23:26pm

re: #1049 Slumbering Behemoth

I find that religious fundamentalists are quite often not conservative in the least, and advocate many things which are irredeemably leftist or socialist.

Yes- because they have an unconstrained vision.

1051 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:23:36pm

re: #1040 Slumbering Behemoth

"Wake up [insert demographic]" is generally a phrase used by those who think that their narrow perspective or little piece of "information" is a truth (or a "troof", as the case may be) that is ignored or eluding a segment of society because that segment of society is composed of blind, stupid zombie-sheeple.

It is the mating call of mad cranks and conspiracy theorists.

Heh. Check the upper right square here, second from top:

Libertarian Troll Bingo!

original post here

1052 Van Helsing  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:24:19pm

re: #1038 esch

I could take on a lot of the ugly in 2 years.

I'd have to be Emperor of course.
And it goes without saying that it Would Not Be Pretty.

1053 katemaclaren  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:24:50pm

Well, frankly, Sept. 8 is the first day of school here, so it's a bit inconvenient. What I'm hoping is that September 8 doesn't become 9-8. The other President was in a classroom September 11, 2001. Every year I worry about that. I was in NYC that day, staying with friends near the Episcopal church not to far away from the WTC. My little guy had a fever and so instead of going to see the sights around Manhattan (including the WTC), I took the train home. I hadn't been home half an hour when that first airplane hit.

1054 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:25:01pm

re: #1031 Gus 802

The constrained-unconstrained dichotomy of course does not apply to all aspects of governance. Once could question it's application to history for example in the Constitution which could be said to be the result of an unconstrained vision. Had they remain constrained, there would have been no motivation for its creation.

Wait- what? The Constitution is a constrained document.

1055 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:25:13pm

re: #1028 esch

Ok.

The pre-existing condition limitation is there to prevent people from waiting to get insurance until they get sick, and then purchase it for long enough to get treatment. If somebody can come up with a better solution to that problem, I'm sure they'd listen.

God, if only that were true. Have a history of high blood pressure? ADD? Gallstones? Back pain?

You are screwed.

It's not a matter of "waiting until you get sick". It's the fact that you are uninsurable under then present system.

1056 Dreader1962  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:25:18pm

re: #1047 austin_blue

I'm not a CPA, but it is my understanding that hospitals get to write off uncompensated costs.

Yes, but there are uncompensated costs (such as emergency services that are not paid and low-income waiver of cost) and there are these insurance games. I always wonder about this even with the payouts - if $500 is claimed, but the insurance only covers $250, does the hospital claim a $250 loss? I really wish I could find this out. Actually, it's something that congressional hearings would reveal if the bothered to take the time to study the problem before dropping a massive bill that the congress-critters won't read.

1057 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:25:30pm

re: #1044 Dreader1962

Damn!

Individualism...

You are unique, just like everyone else.

1058 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:26:10pm

re: #1042 iceweasel

Excellent points. In so far as the labels have utility I do see them as being about policy and regulation.

Problem is, a 'constrained' view of human nature has traditionally been applied against progress on social issues, and I think FT was making this point as well w/r/t the social psychology issues. That is, it was once argued that blacks simply were inferior, and this was used to excuse everything from slavery to denying them the vote to denying them education access to prohibiting miscegenation.

Similarly, the women's movement. It was argued that this is just 'the way things are' or 'the way people are'.

So it's not quite as simple as saying that religious fundamentalists are unconstrained, really...
I don't know. Interesting discussion, though.

That's how I see it as well. The problem with defining social policy as constrained, goes as Freetoken suggested, against evolution or in this case social evolution. Society evolves in a somewhat unconstrained manner and policy is changed to accommodate those changes: civil rights, womens rights, etc. It could be argued that there was a way in place to accommodate those changes however the effectively did not work.

With other factors such as the economy or defense it require a more stable foundation or one that is constrained. For basic survival perhaps stability, etc.

1059 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:26:53pm

re: #1054 Sharmuta

Wait- what? The Constitution is a constrained document.

I mean that it was a result of an unconstrained vision.

1060 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:27:10pm

re: #1037 Dark_Falcon

That was snarky, but justified and classy. upding.

And backatcha!

1061 EastSider  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:29:58pm

Charles et al,

I hardly ever post here, but lurk pretty much daily.

I just wanted to say I appreciate the rationality of this site in recent months. It is really refreshing to read a conservative point of view that doesn't fly into hysterics when Obama chooses his clothes for the day.

Two thoughts:

1) From a conservative point of view, the recent craziness has a bit of "boy who cried wolf" flavor to it. If/when Obama does propose something truly crazy (Nat'l healthcare notwithstanding) the hysteria/opposition is going to seem old hat. That is unless there's a part II of this strategy us laymen are not aware of.

2) From a national security point of view--I think one has to be concerned that continually scaring people and rousing them into a fervor is going to eventually lead to violence. It only takes one nut with a gun to do something crazy. If that happens, you're going to see a lot of right wing leaders racing to wash their hands of the months of panic they helped create.

Thoughts?

1062 Gus  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:30:04pm

re: #1043 Sharmuta

The visions are also laid out starkly for sake of discussion, but come in degrees, as is mentioned at the beginning of the book. Where I start to lean the most unconstrained is education funding. I do see education as the great equalizer, and think every child should have the opportunity to get a basic education so they can make the best of the opportunity of their minds limits. Everywhere else- I'm fairly constrained. I would say classic liberalism would be a good term to describe the constrained vision.

I think we use both: constrained and unconstrained. But that's probably just a reflection of my centrist views. Constrained for the technical aspects and unconstrained for the human aspects. Of course there will be variations of the two.

1063 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:31:26pm

re: #1058 Gus 802

That's how I see it as well. The problem with defining social policy as constrained, goes as Freetoken suggested, against evolution or in this case social evolution. Society evolves in a somewhat unconstrained manner and policy is changed to accommodate those changes: civil rights, womens rights, etc. It could be argued that there was a way in place to accommodate those changes however the effectively did not work.

With other factors such as the economy or defense it require a more stable foundation or one that is constrained. For basic survival perhaps stability, etc.

I don't think that because human nature is fixed that it means humanity can't evolve. Clearly societies have evolved, and these are beyond unconstrained changes- they were achieved the hard way- bottom up grassroots demands for change, or technological revolutions. A non or unconstrained societal change would be one imposed by elites.

However- human nature in individuals remains fixed. We are all capable of good and evil no matter how much the society we're raised in has advanced.

1064 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:32:28pm

re: #1061 EastSider

Charles et al,

I hardly ever post here, but lurk pretty much daily.

I just wanted to say I appreciate the rationality of this site in recent months. It is really refreshing to read a conservative point of view that doesn't fly into hysterics when Obama chooses his clothes for the day.

Two thoughts:

1) From a conservative point of view, the recent craziness has a bit of "boy who cried wolf" flavor to it. If/when Obama does propose something truly crazy (Nat'l healthcare notwithstanding) the hysteria/opposition is going to seem old hat. That is unless there's a part II of this strategy us laymen are not aware of.

2) From a national security point of view--I think one has to be concerned that continually scaring people and rousing them into a fervor is going to eventually lead to violence. It only takes one nut with a gun to do something crazy. If that happens, you're going to see a lot of right wing leaders racing to wash their hands of the months of panic they helped create.

Thoughts?

Bring it up on the overnight!

1065 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:32:44pm

re: #1061 EastSider

Wow- what did you say to be negative in karma?

1066 austin_blue  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:34:17pm

re: #1065 Sharmuta

Wow- what did you say to be negative in karma?

Curious, yes? Let's take a look at the overnight thread and see what is revealed!

1067 EastSider  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:34:41pm

re: #1065 Sharmuta

I played devil's advocate for Obama on a few threads in October. Didn't fly to well. Learned a bunch.

1068 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:36:33pm

Gus, iDub, freetoken-

Mentally I only use the visions to label people now. Religious fundamentalists and white nationalists are not of the constrained vision. They are not my political allies. Neither are many in the other tent, but I think some of them are more constrained but the false labels of "liberal" and "conservative" have been so distorted they keep us apart when it shouldn't. The visions unite us, but only if we could get a party to represent a vision instead of what we're getting now.

1069 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:37:42pm

re: #1067 EastSider

I bet! lol Come up to the overnight and say that nice comment about LGF again, and I bet you can wipe it away.

1070 The Left  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:38:34pm

re: #1061 EastSider

Wow, awesome comment. I hope you'll repost in the overnight and we can talk about it there too!

1071 jordash1212  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:39:37pm

re: #3 esch

That's why I went out of state to California for college... d'oh!

1072 EastSider  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:42:05pm

re: #1070 iceweasel

just did!

1073 spiderx  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:49:30pm

re: #1028 esch

Ok.

The pre-existing condition limitation is there to prevent people from waiting to get insurance until they get sick, and then purchase it for long enough to get treatment. If somebody can come up with a better solution to that problem, I'm sure they'd listen.

you have studied the issue enough to know that it isn't only used for only those instances haven't you?

it also goes to my point. When someone uses the argument that if you don't like your insurance company that go into the free market and find another. Most people don't find out that they don't like their insurance company until they need medical treatment and either get stuck with all the bills, denied etc.

Also..lets say someone like you say doesn't have health insurance and they feel some symptoms of what may be a disease. Are they to just go untreated because they couldn't afford health insurance? And could you blame them if they lied on their health insurance application so they could get some coverage?

1074 lostlakehiker  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:50:04pm

re: #1036 placeholder

This is simply wrong. The current choice is:

A. existing healthcare providers
or
B. None.

The proposed solution is existing healthcare providers, the government, or none. Why is everyone assuming that existing health providers are somehow going to get shut down, or eliminated. that's just absurd.

The gov't is just another competitor. Like it is for FedEx or UPS through the postal service. Those companies seem to compete on quality just fine...

With today's medicare, private practices lose money already on each patient. Now think. Suppose they put everyone on medicare, by making it cheap and yet an entitlement to the best care anywhere. What will happen? When private practices lose money on each and every patient, they'll just go under.

Suppose the government stands up its own health care system, NHS-style. What happened in Britain was that NHS doctors are the second-tier, and your odds are distinctly worse in the NHS. As one guy put it recently, in the U.S. we have a two-tier system with 80% of the people in the top tier, while in Britain they have 20% in the top tier. Why would we want to move from where we are, to that?

1075 el polacko  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:53:52pm

for me, the content of his speech to the kiddies is less important than their being greeted by the orwellian sight of the flickering image of the Dear Leader/Big Brother in classrooms coast-to-coast ... add in the study guides advising that the students talk about their admiration for the prez and 'how they can help him' and it's just pretty darned creepy.

1076 altermite  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:55:10pm

re: #1075 el polacko

for me, the content of his speech to the kiddies is less important than their being greeted by the orwellian sight of the flickering image of the Dear Leader/Big Brother in classrooms coast-to-coast ... add in the study guides advising that the students talk about their admiration for the prez and 'how they can help him' and it's just pretty darned creepy.

OOOGA BOOOGA BOOOGA!!!
/fearmongering

1077 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:57:00pm

re: #1075 el polacko

Oh the horror! The kids will force to listen to Obama talk about why they should work hard and study. He might even talk to them about how fun learning can be. COMMIE BRAINWASHING!

/sarc

1078 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 12:21:35am

re: #1075 el polacko

Some people believe there are monsters under their bed.
Some people believe the boogie man lives in their closet.
Some people believe G.W. Bush would declare martial law, turn the U.S. into a fascist state, and set himself up as supreme ruler.
Some people believe Obama will brainwash children and twist them into socialist zombies that follow a political messiah.

Some people are stupid.

1079 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 12:25:40am

re: #1075 el polacko

for me, the content of his speech to the kiddies is less important than their being greeted by the orwellian sight of the flickering image of the Dear Leader/Big Brother in classrooms coast-to-coast ... add in the study guides advising that the students talk about their admiration for the prez and 'how they can help him' and it's just pretty darned creepy.

Why?

1080 spiderx  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 12:30:46am

re: #1074 lostlakehiker

With today's medicare, private practices lose money already on each patient. Now think. Suppose they put everyone on medicare, by making it cheap and yet an entitlement to the best care anywhere. What will happen? When private practices lose money on each and every patient, they'll just go under.

Suppose the government stands up its own health care system, NHS-style. What happened in Britain was that NHS doctors are the second-tier, and your odds are distinctly worse in the NHS. As one guy put it recently, in the U.S. we have a two-tier system with 80% of the people in the top tier, while in Britain they have 20% in the top tier. Why would we want to move from where we are, to that?

if i need surgery I want to be in an American hospital. We have the best doctors and best emergency doctors hands down.

Having said that I have lived in both the UK and the US(born in US) and with managed care the UK was hands down better. (no health insurance nightmares)

1081 Hector1980  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 1:18:52am

Why is it political for the president of the United States to discuss education?

Because the 1993 Newt Gingrich want to know:

[Link: www.politifact.com...]

Of course, GHB didn't have Obama's MAGICAL SOCIALIST POWERS, able to enslave and indoctrinate children in a morning.

1082 The Left  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 1:35:02am

re: #1075 el polacko

for me, the content of his speech to the kiddies is less important than their being greeted by the orwellian sight of the flickering image of the Dear Leader

Right. And I'm sure you objected every time Bush addressed schools too, right? And you'd be calling it 'orwellian' if McCain had won and wanted to spread evil capitalistic messages like "Stay in school, study hard and you too can be POTUS."

Wanker.

1083 moriarity  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 2:11:49am

It's not Obama's speech that's objectionable, it's the classroom manipulation by the teachers who carry heavy political agendas that's worrisome. Already some of the "suggestions" by Duncan have been abolished. Government simply does not belong in the schools, period.

1084 The Left  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 2:26:28am

re: #1083 moriarity

It's not Obama's speech that's objectionable, it's the classroom manipulation by the teachers who carry heavy political agendas that's worrisome. Already some of the "suggestions" by Duncan have been abolished. Government simply does not belong in the schools, period.

Link to any proof.

The only reason any of the wording in the lecture plan has been changed is as a concession to irrational wingnut freakouts like yours.

1085 haakondahl  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 3:03:48am

re: #1058 Gus 802

That's how I see it as well. The problem with defining social policy as constrained, goes as Freetoken suggested, against evolution or in this case social evolution. Society evolves in a somewhat unconstrained manner and policy is changed to accommodate those changes: civil rights, womens rights, etc. It could be argued that there was a way in place to accommodate those changes however the effectively did not work.

With other factors such as the economy or defense it require a more stable foundation or one that is constrained. For basic survival perhaps stability, etc.

I think this convo has wandered a little form the definitions it relies upon. Reality is neither constrained nor unconstrained; it simply is. What can be one or the other is an individual's vision, if we reject for a moment the notion of collective thought, as each mind exists in one skull only. The unconstrained vision exists in a person who believes that humanity and society can be perfected, and that the leadership of those more perfect than most is the proper way to achieve goals. The constrained vision exists in a person who does not believe that humanity can be perfected--this is the fundamental constraint. To a person with the constrained vision, humanity and society must be taken as they are rather than perfected, and that the structure of incentives is the proper way to achieve goals.

As Sowell says many times, there are probably no examples of 100% on either side, and we are all mixtures of both sort of vision, naturally to varying degrees.

Since both sides admit that at any give time the mass of humanity or society is imperfect, the difference is between persuading or compelling desired behavior, cf progressive vs. conservative views on the proper structure of regulatory environments.

1086 haakondahl  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 3:05:36am

re: #1084 iceweasel

Link to any proof.

The only reason any of the wording in the lecture plan has been changed is as a concession to irrational wingnut freakouts like yours.

So did you approve of assigning students to "write a letter to yourself describing how you can help the President", and the inclusion of text "to hold students accountable" to those goals? You didn't think that that was an egregious overreach by functionaries?

1087 The Left  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 3:28:43am

re: #1086 haakondahl

So did you approve of assigning students to "write a letter to yourself describing how you can help the President", and the inclusion of text "to hold students accountable" to those goals? You didn't think that that was an egregious overreach by functionaries?

Nope. I don't think it's an overreach, or anything weird. That is fairly standard stuff.

This 'how to help the POTUS' language is being made into a source of hysteria. Suppose he said, "One of my goals is to see that each and every student reaches his or her full potential academically." That's the kind of speech he's going to give, you know. All about encouraging kids to work hard, stay in school, study.
"What can I do to help the POTUS meet his goals? (of seeing every kid graduate HS)" obviously has the answer I CAN STAY IN SCHOOL.

This is whipped up froth out of nothing.

1088 JPL17  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 4:30:35am

re: #105 pat

I did not say I agree with the assessment. As usual this tone deaf WH, actually the DOE, blew it with their need for Obama to be worshiped rather than just be President Obama.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

1089 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 4:35:32am

This story has now emerged in the mainstream media. Predictably, it is being presented as a bunch of knuckle-dragging morons attempting to use their children as hapless political tools in their battle against paranoid delusions that no tinfoil helmet can possibly subdue.

And in this instance, the mainstream media is absolutely, 100% correct.

I'd go even further and note a strain of racism running through such arguments as well. Presidents and other politicians have spent enormous amounts of time visiting elementary, middle and high schools in the past, without comment. Suggest letting a Negro President speak to the nation's schoolchildren even for a few minutes, though, and the shrieking rises to a crescendo.

I'm sickened and disgusted by this manufactured outrage. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

1090 JPL17  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 4:37:30am

re: #1054 Sharmuta

Wait- what? The Constitution is a constrained document.

I'm reading Sowell's book right now, and as I think you mentioned a couple weeks ago, it really is perception-changing. Many belated thanks for recommending it. (Amazon.com thanks you too.)

1091 Loren42  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 4:54:14am

re: #1087 iceweasel

Nope. I don't think it's an overreach, or anything weird. That is fairly standard stuff. ... This is whipped up froth out of nothing.

If that was only all of it, but this president has systematically shown us that he does have an agenda and that he will use all means to achieve it.

Like I said, if this was simply a case where one line is mistakenly put into a speech I would dismiss it.

However, our President has a solid history of following an ideology that I feel is flat out wrong and a history of attempting to push us there (let alone his lies).

Given that past history and his narcissist personality disorder I feel it is prudent to expect that he had intended to cross the line here.

I will continue to doubt his actions because as Descartes had said it is wise not to trust completely those who have deceived us even once.

1092 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 5:30:55am
1093 Coracle  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 6:22:42am

re: #872 marjoriemoon

So... you're saying Republicans registered Democrat, and then voted Republican? or the other way around. It's either late or I'm not following you or both lol

I know it's late and this is a dead thread, but I wanted to reply for completeness. Yes. I know both a self avowed Conservative who registered Democrat, voted in Dem primaries for the "weaker" Dem candidate (wouldn't tell me who he thought that was), and then voted Rep in the election. I also know a social leftist, who registered and voted for what he said was the most centrist Rep in that primary, then voted Dem in the election.

1094 kellino  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 6:38:57am

I'm with Pawlenty.

There's nothing wrong with a President speaking to school children.

But here you have a President apparently trying to foster a relationship with students -- many of whom will be voters in the next 4-8 years -- and ask them to "help the President" rather than the country.

Here is what Pawlenty said:

"I don't think it's wrong for the president to speak on education issues, you've just got to be careful about how you do it so you don't look like you are using the public school infrastructure for a political purpose," the Republican governor said on WCCO radio


And that's the key. I have not seen all the material but there seems to be enough cause for an eyebrow or two to be raised here.

The Obama Adminstration has not been careful, and has approached this in a manner which rasies suspicions. And when you consider that the President was trained by Saul Alinski, that's even more reason to be on guard.

1095 haakondahl  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 6:57:28am

re: #1089 SixDegrees

This story has now emerged in the mainstream media. Predictably, it is being presented as a bunch of knuckle-dragging morons attempting to use their children as hapless political tools in their battle against paranoid delusions that no tinfoil helmet can possibly subdue.

And in this instance, the mainstream media is absolutely, 100% correct.

I'd go even further and note a strain of racism running through such arguments as well. Presidents and other politicians have spent enormous amounts of time visiting elementary, middle and high schools in the past, without comment. Suggest letting a Negro President speak to the nation's schoolchildren even for a few minutes, though, and the shrieking rises to a crescendo.

I'm sickened and disgusted by this manufactured outrage. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Who's manufacturing outrage? Who's producing specious arguments and attributing them without citation? Am I one in whose arguments you detect a strain of racism? Where did you see this "Negro President" horseshit? Once again, I see Obama's supporters flying to the trumped up claim that somehow his political opponents are a bunch of knuckle-dragging racists.
Way to elevate the debate. I have rarely seen a less useful post with more inadvertent self-reference. You are the problem.

1096 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 8:10:52am
1097 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 8:48:26am

#1096: Bye now! We'll miss you -- actually, not.

1098 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 9:09:47am

re: #1090 JPL17

I'm reading Sowell's book right now, and as I think you mentioned a couple weeks ago, it really is perception-changing. Many belated thanks for recommending it. (Amazon.com thanks you too.)

I'm so glad you're enjoying it.

1099 doubter4444  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 9:22:21am

re: #322 Sharmuta

This "boycott" or whatever of the President's speech is an embodiment of the "not my president" principle, which I recall the right didn't appreciate from the other side of the aisle, but seems we're all to willing to behave in a similar fashion when it suits our needs. But I think it sends other signals, too.

I think it's a bad message to send to children that the President isn't worth listening to. We have enough of an issue with people not paying attention to current events and politics- we shouldn't be encouraging this. It's also important that children learn civic responsibility- that we have the right to speech and what that means. This actually is a teachable moment.

Parents who don't like Obama should still allow the discourse to proceed. Give the man the floor, and talk to your children about your political principles later after school. It's the American thing to do.

Thanks, my first favorited post.
Well said.

1100 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 9:24:24am

re: #1099 doubter4444

I'm honored.

1101 avspatti  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 11:48:04am

re: #1098 Sharmuta

Which book, please???

1102 doubter4444  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 12:43:50pm

re: #324 solicitr

To my knowledge, the institutional GOP hasn't said a thing- it's all blogosphere and broadcasters. But that's fine. Let the public officials stay above the fray.

In the meantime, the industrious termites go to work at the Obama edifice. And that's fine too.

What I'm afraid some are missing here is that it doesn't matter that this kerfluffle is chickenshit. The goal is the end of the Obama administration- and any controversy (that isn't an outright fabrication) helps save the country from the bastards. You know, Jimmy Carter's 'killer rabbit' was chickenshit, and Gerald Ford's trick knee was chickenshit- but they were political wounds nonetheless.

Every bit of fear and loathing generated against the bum is all good. This is *politics*, people! Do you think the lefties won by being measured and rational? Bullcrap! It was "Blood for Halliburton" and "George Bush don't care about black people." It was eight years of Jon Stewart's smirks and cheap shots- usually over chickenshit. I'm sorry, but those of you who want to cop a courtly, reasonable Bill Buckley attitude are bringing Queensbury rules to an alley fight.

Jesus, ponder for a second the price of allowing this commie motherf*cker a second term!

By whatever means necessary.

You are evil.
You disgust me.

1103 doubter4444  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 1:03:18pm

re: #434 haakondahl

Are you talking about President Reagan taking a moment in the Challenger speech to address children? Or about President Buch speaking briefly to kids in the wake of 9/11? If so, you're drawing a pathetically false parallel.

We're not talking about a field trip or a book-reading or a few moments carved off of some larger speech to the nation as a whole.

This is the modern technology of mass communications in the service of the state, bypassing parents to go straight to kids.

That's just horse shit.
I imagine the same argument was used against the evil TV or maybe the radio too.
Todays technology is being used, god forbid.
Honestly, any reason to carp... it's fucking relentless.

1104 doubter4444  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 1:15:52pm

re: #493 tradewind

IMO, his mistake is not so much in the timing, of the speech, but in the timing of the announcement of the speech. .Way too much lead time, way too much fanfare and ' Hey, I'm gonna talk to the school children of America ' So he wants to address the kids. Fine. Why all the hoo-hah? Why all the drumrolls? Just pick a time and a TelePrompter , give the nets a few days notice, and talk to them. We're all watching, Barack. No need to send out flyers and advance men to make sure.

That's what he did do, you fucking mormon.
It's all the screaming that even made this an issue.
He made a simple plan to address school kids on the first day, announced it, what a week before, and now this.
Besides, half you you friends that are complaining are bitching that there WAS NOT enough time or warning or whatever the fuck, and think he was trying to "slip one by".
As I said, nothing he does will be acceptable to you, ever.

1105 doubter4444  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 1:28:18pm

re: #590 Fenway_Nation

Who knew the Appalachin Trail went all the way down to Buenos Aires?

/

I always thought it was called "The Happy Trail"

1106 ensignsj  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 6:16:16pm

And the dems would have been ok with Bush doing this? Come on. Isn't this all quite predictable?

1107 JPL17  Sat, Sep 5, 2009 8:04:23pm

re: #1101 avspatti

Which book, please???

A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles, by Thomas Sowell (revised ed. 2007).

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

1108 farblonjet  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:32:20pm

The offensive part of obama's school day speech was his lesson plan that asks the kids to write a letter to themselves asking "how can I help the president?"

Now that is downright offensive and orwellian, nomatter which party is in power.

Over this, the critics rightfully emerged, and Obama's technocrats backed down and admitted the lesson plan was poorly written.

Now that has happened, the critics on the right need to back down and STFU about the issue. There is nothing offensive about a president speaking to the kids, asking them to stay in school! He should just not ask them how they can help his agenda.


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